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OpenLLM France 121

[speaker001:] some trouble fitting you in. [speaker002:] shampoo. [speaker003:] Nobody want their head cut off? No? [speaker002:] Tom's got Trimazepam. the last time. Pardon? Oh give us peace. [speaker003:] There you go. [speaker002:] Trimazepam. [speaker003:] I'll need to cut your dad's legs off and then he'll be the same size as you. do. Ah you're kidding on. You're kidding on. Right cheerio now. [speaker002:] [recording ends]

[speaker002:] Hi. [speaker003:] Good morning.... Now young lady, what can I do for you today? [speaker002:] tablets. [speaker003:] Some tablets. Right.... [speaker002:] I need.... [speaker003:] Still the tablets? The, aye. [speaker002:] For the? Aye. I've changed my address Dr, I'm at a wee pensioner's house. [speaker003:] Ah I was just gonna ask you that. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Wh where are you now, Gracie? [speaker002:] Er Street..... Wee pensioner's house [speaker003:] Mhm. Yeah. Well [speaker002:] Saves you a lot of cleaning in the big house. [speaker003:] That's right. That's right because you lose the notion. [speaker002:] Aye.. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And my insurance line. [speaker003:] do a line as well.... There we go. That'll keep you right with these folk. [speaker002:] Right thanks. [speaker003:] No bother at all. [speaker002:] Thanks very much Dr. [speaker003:] Look after yourself now. Cheerio now. [speaker002:] . [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Come in.... [speaker002:] Hi. [speaker003:] Hello. what can I do for you today? [speaker002:] Well I still haven't received any word from the the about my back.... I was [speaker003:] From February, end of February.... Well should this time. I'll get on to them and find out what's happened.... Right there I've checked it for you. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] Now are you due a [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] line today? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] You're due a line.... [speaker002:] I just thought I would have heard something by now. [speaker003:] I would have thought so. I would have thought so.... What about pain killers and [speaker002:] Well I was just going to say, er I don't have enough to last me four weeks, but will I just wait until I [speaker003:] No I'll get you some more just now. just now. Er [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Still the. [speaker002:] I was on that, I mean I've not been taking them all the time, I've really only been taking them when I feel it. [speaker003:] When you need them. Mhm. [speaker002:] . I take I mean I can take them but I'm not too fond of taking tablets [speaker003:] If you can avoid it, no? It's better without them.... number thirty two.... And I'll get on to the and we'll get them an appointment out to you as quick as we can. Because you should have you should have heard by this time. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] There we go. keep you out of mischief for a wee while. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker002:] . [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] It's all wishful thinking. All [speaker002:] Yes [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] wishful thinking. Right, cheerio now. [speaker002:] Thanks Dr [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello?... Right thank you. [speaker003:] Well Gerald, what can I do for you today sir? [speaker002:] Well not too bad. You know, a wee bit of numbness in my hand you know. [speaker003:] Still still having [speaker002:] Er I need the tablets for er an awful lot of boils you know. [speaker003:] Are you? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] You know how I take Tetracycline quite regularly [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know and I [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] And I knew I was coming up you know. [speaker003:] Well that's be some I'm gonna give you a slight change till we get your skin clear and then we'll we'll get you back on your after that Gerry. [speaker002:] Aye.... I'm due I'm meant to go to a diabetic clinic again, you know in Strathclyde you know. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] .... [speaker003:] . [whispering] ninety five. [] [speaker002:] My line'll be due now Doc, can you give me another line please. [speaker003:] .... [speaker002:] I was just You know I used to always maybe take one and if I got bad I took maybe two a day you know. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] Doc. [speaker003:] Use these other ones. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Give give this the Tetracycline a wee rest. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And then we'll get you back onto them after five or six days, Gerald. That'll give your skin a good chance.... [speaker002:] some of that Dr. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] how long far away. There's way that I'm gonna trust them for another five or six weeks yet. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I know I know what they like.... They'll all go their Summer holidays. Any time. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. That's true. [speaker003:] There we go Gerald, that'll keep you right. Right [speaker002:] Dr. now. [speaker003:] Cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Come in come in come in. There you are now young man.... [speaker002:] Hope you cos I can't hear with that ear now. [speaker003:] It's. [speaker002:] Er the... [speaker003:] There we are..... [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] This one's still bad. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] Well let's get you away. quite nice.... Now we're... slap this round about. That's fine.... Er that's just No just slightly round there. That's it, just like that.... Beauty.... Mm. [speaker002:] No wonder I couldn't hear. [speaker003:] No wonder you couldn't hear.... Yeah, that looks okay now. Right that'll be alright Bill. Just get a wee look in, just check the inside.... Magic. Magic, clean as a whistle. Bill, there there'll be a tiny wee spot of water down at the bottom here Bill that'll maybe take today just to dissolve away. [speaker002:] Mm. That's [speaker003:] And now just You remember what you used to do when you come out the baths? [speaker002:] Aye yes. [speaker003:] Do that. [speaker002:] Swimming yeah. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] I can hear now. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] There we are. Give yourself a dry off with this. [speaker002:] Right you are thank you. [speaker003:] Okay? [speaker002:] Right you are. [speaker003:] And j Have you any of the drops left Bill? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Well keep them in the house, and maybe once in a while, sort of once every two months, just put a couple of drops in maybe Saturday night or Sunday night. You know, just to keep it loose, keep it from getting clogged up again. [speaker002:] Right you are. [speaker003:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Thank you. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Come in. [speaker002:] That's you finished now. I don't know if you want to mark up something in Mr. I take it he was in at eight o'clock. [speaker003:] I saw him at eight o'clock. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] I wouldn't say he was in at eight o'clock. [speaker002:] . [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello Doctor. [speaker002:] Good morning Mrs. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Well young lady, what can we do [speaker003:] I'm just up to see about this operation. [speaker002:] What's what operation? [speaker003:] You know Royal Infirmary [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] th that was temporary. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And he's the consultant told me, it would take two to three days. [LAUGHTER] I think it's years he means.... [speaker002:] Have you not heard any more about it? [speaker003:] Two cancellations Doctor, two.... [speaker002:] And that's all you've heard? [speaker003:] That's all I've heard.... [speaker002:] Cos we've never heard any more. [speaker003:] No. I just thought I'd come up and speak to you about that. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And it's a thingy that I can't forget about. I can't make any appointments for going [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] anywhere. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] You know.... [speaker002:] Right well I'll get on to them this morning. [speaker003:] Will you? [speaker002:] That was Mr? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mr was [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] the man. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Yes. I mean, that's a long time isn't it? [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Phone Mr...... Royal Infirmary... Mrs... operation.... As soon as possible. [speaker003:] Now could I have some cramp er tablets Doctor? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] For my hands any my feet. And this is where I used to get pain. Now I can be constipatied constipated and I can be the other way. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] And Dr that was the only w doctor ever I knew up here. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And he always gave me this bottle [speaker002:] That's the syrupy stuff? [speaker003:] Yes, and he told me to take a spoonful [speaker002:] That's [speaker003:] at night a teaspoonful [speaker002:] A teaspoonful before you go to your bed. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] So could I have that? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Please.... I I'm not really a doctor person really, but this is really troubling me up here you know. [speaker002:] Oh yes. Oh aye. You should heard long before this. [speaker003:] Oh it's a terrible thing Doctor. [speaker002:] That's that's a terrible old thing. [speaker003:] And I'm eighty eighty two, I'll be eighty three in December. [speaker002:] Aha. And you're not getting any younger. [speaker003:] I'm not getting any younger, but mind you I'd like to get it done. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Because I can't take any freedom. [speaker002:] That's right. That's right. Now.... Mark this in here. [speaker003:] We were getting the sun weren't we? [speaker002:] Aye, today, today. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] Now that was yours Your er [speaker003:] Cramp. [speaker002:] Your erm quinine. Was it you quinine? Tab tablets. Was it [speaker003:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] the quinine tablets? The old fashioned ones. For the cramp. [speaker003:] was for this c for the cramp? Yes yes it is still. Sometimes I got to get up in the night and walk about and [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] my hand's cold. But that oil, it seemed to help me a lot. [speaker002:] Oh yes, it just eases [speaker003:] Just a teaspoonful. [speaker002:] That's right, just eases things through.? [speaker003:] No I can't do with anything. [speaker002:] No no no no. [speaker003:] Doctor used to say, Never you take a laxative. [speaker002:] No no. No that's the worst thing you could do. [speaker003:] Yes.... Have you had your holidays Doctor? [speaker002:] No no. [speaker003:] No? [speaker002:] October. [speaker003:] October.... [speaker002:] There we are and I'll I'll get on to the Royal this morning. [speaker003:] Thanks ever so much Doctor. And I'll be [speaker002:] And we'll try and get worked out to you this week. [speaker003:] greatly obliged to you. [speaker002:] Right Mrs, [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] I'll just go straight through just now. [speaker003:] Right and thank you Doctor. [speaker002:] Now have we got your phone number? [speaker003:] Er. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Wait a bit, Yes that's right. That's right,. [speaker002:] Okay. we know where to find you. [speaker003:] Thanks Doctor, thanks very much. [speaker002:] Right that's enough. [speaker003:] Bye bye. [speaker002:] Right cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Well now James, what can we do for you? [speaker002:] Oh [speaker003:] Not so bad. Not so bad. [speaker002:] I feel a bit sad. I'm my daughter's taken me hol me away for a holiday. Erm [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] a holiday down in. And [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] my line's not due till the twenty sixth of July. [speaker003:] That's alright. [speaker002:] Twenty six of July it's due Doctor. [speaker003:] Well no problem. [speaker002:] So I'll leave it with my other daughter. She can't post it [speaker003:] No no no. Se send it in John. [speaker002:] Send it in? [speaker003:] Aye just send it [speaker002:] Twenty sixth of July it's due. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] You know that's a year off now you know. [speaker003:] Yeah. Due on twenty six [speaker002:] Twenty six of July, yes. [speaker003:] July ninety three. Ah no no terrible worry about that Jim. [speaker002:] No? [speaker003:] No no no no no. [speaker002:] Sometime you know they they [speaker003:] Och aye it's not. [speaker002:] I just send it in, there'll be no problem then. [speaker003:] No problem, no no. [whispering] The thirteenth of the seventh, ninety three. [] There we are. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] You just send that, just send that in to [speaker002:] But could you give me some Er can you give me some Zantac Doctor? [speaker003:] Some Zantac? [speaker002:] Give me a bottle because I during the holidays. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Well you shouldn't you shouldn't need of that stuff down there. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] Aye well that's [speaker002:] Well I don't take you know [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Just a wee break. Actually. She says. [speaker003:] Well it's nice it's a nice part of the world. [speaker002:] Yes it i somewhere it's nice Doctor, it is. [speaker003:] But er Torquay's [speaker002:] A bit hilly [speaker003:] Aye [speaker002:] Too hilly for me [speaker003:] Not for us, not for us. [speaker002:] No. No. [speaker003:] Not for you. [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] It's er and it's like it's not a nice place anyway. [speaker002:] I think Paigns I've a feeling Paignton's far nicer. [speaker003:] Paignton's far nicer. And [speaker002:] Yes yes I heard that Doctor. [speaker003:] Torquay used to used to be a lovely place. Everything was kept absolutely perfect. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] Palm trees and the [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] the the railings were always painted and all the houses were beautifully kept and And now mm. [speaker002:] Was it Has it? [speaker003:] Aye. It's a shame. You know, I was there in nineteen nineteen fifty. [speaker002:] Were you? [speaker003:] And I I mean it was absolutely gorgeous. Everything, the railings you know, when they put when they painted the railings, the burned the old paint off, the new paint on. [speaker002:] Ah yes yes yes yes yes. [speaker003:] Now, old paint just straight on top Aye. It just it looks terrible. [speaker002:] I may go through for a day you know. [speaker003:] Aye Och. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] It's not it's not worth it. It's not worth that [speaker002:] Ah well. [speaker003:] even. [speaker002:] Ah well. can go through. [speaker003:] Aye they can let them let [LAUGHTER] them go [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] let them go []. There's a good ice cream shop. [speaker002:] Oh I like ice cream. Oh I like ice cream. I'm I'm very partial to ice cream. Yes I I must say that. [LAUGHTER] I like ice cream. Well thank you very much Doctor. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Eh, well there's a good ice cream shop there. Away you go then. Away you go them Jimmy. [speaker002:] And I'll. [speaker003:] Aye I'll. Okay? [speaker002:] Thank you then. [speaker003:] Look after yourself. Right Jim. [speaker002:] Bye bye. [speaker003:] Cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] see see you in a second. Now what can we do for Jane? you're you're wheezing? You're a bad woman. [speaker002:] Dr Aye really quite bad. [speaker003:] a lovely day like that, you're wheezing. [speaker002:] No I've been quite bad for Thursday or Friday [speaker003:] Have you? [speaker002:] last week. Aye. [speaker003:] Ah you're full of infection as well. [speaker002:] I'm taking a steroid inhaler. Got a lot of pains [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] in my chest and that. [speaker003:] Your tubes are full. [speaker002:] Aye. Very tired. I feel very tired. forgotten sometimes. [speaker003:] Aye no wonder. Would you like to come.. Right okay, don't. Right. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] [whispering] []... [whispering] Get your tubes loosened up. I'll need to give you an antibiotic as well Jane to [] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] [whispering] that stuff because there's a lot of stuff lying Actually caught in the tubes. [] [speaker002:] Aye I've take pains a lot. [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] Everywhere. [speaker003:] Everywhere? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] Right.... And... [whispering] Thirteenth [] Well what about work? You'll no manage work [speaker002:] No I've not been at my work this [speaker003:] You've not been at your work. [speaker002:] Aye. But they go on holiday on Thursday. But I phoned the work yesterday, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I says er if I need a line, how will it work? And she says, Just ask your doctor for a line [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to cover your work from yesterday to Friday. Then I go on holiday for three [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] weeks. [speaker003:] .... Now did you put in a self certificate as well did you? [speaker002:] No well that's what I [speaker003:] That's [speaker002:] was phoning the work for. [speaker003:] Aye [speaker002:] self certificate this week? She says, No, and it's holiday time, a self certificate's no good. [speaker003:] Aye [speaker002:] You'll need an insurance line. [speaker003:] No get a self certificate and put it in to Road. To keep yourself covered with Road. [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker003:] Cos that's what the work should have done. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker003:] They should have got a self certificate and then sent it on to Road for you. [speaker002:] Will I get that then? [speaker003:] But you get it from [speaker002:] What down the Road? [speaker003:] Aye down the Road and get it away Jane, just to keep yourself covered. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Cos er they should have done that. They're a crowd of bandits. Who's that? [speaker002:] yeah..... [speaker003:] Och to breathe down there know what I mean, but oh. [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker003:] Boy it's getting getting past it. [speaker002:] Aye it's the daughter now. It's no boys, it's Karen she's the boss. Lady Muck. [speaker003:] Say no more [LAUGHTER] Say no more. [speaker002:] Okay, thanks now Doctor. [speaker003:] Well you're that'll keep Jane. Okay? [speaker002:] thanks. [speaker003:] Right. Cheerio now. [speaker002:] [recording ends]

[speaker002:] I know but erm if I don't see I'm gonna crack. [speaker003:] Ah. Right. organize you for doing that scan. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] See what's going on.... That's the results about ten minutes ago, an hour ago. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And that's clear as well. So... [speaker002:] There's obviously something not right, Doctor. [speaker003:] Aye there's something wrong. working right. [speaker002:] Where will I go for the scan? [speaker003:] Er I don't know. I need to phone down, see if they've got a time for you today. [speaker002:] Mhm..... [speaker003:] ... You still? [speaker002:] Aye..... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Do your loft up. [speaker002:] We can, it's alright up there. I've got an auntie that lives up there. and she hates it. [LAUGHTER] She wants to go back to. [] [speaker003:] I don't to be quite honest I don't think there's anything left of. [speaker002:] She doesn't like it in that new place. [speaker003:] No no. [speaker002:] And she's getting the nurses up. [speaker003:] Is she giving them a hard time? [speaker002:] Giving them a hard time down there. [speaker003:] Is she? [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] Who's that? [speaker002:] My Aunty Peggy. My dad's sister.... [speaker003:] I was in there once but [speaker002:] She just went after he daughter. Her daughter died of cancer and then a year later her [speaker003:] Oh right. [speaker002:] husband died of cancer and she just.... Now even if I'm only weeks pregnant this' ll show? Aye? [speaker003:] If you're weeks pregnant, that would have shown. [speaker002:] It would have shown? [speaker003:] Aye. Oh aye. [speaker002:] So I'm definitely not pregnant? [speaker003:] Definitely not pregnant. [speaker002:] My body's just dying. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] You mean I'm not heading for the end of me. [speaker003:] four weeks, would have shown up on that. [speaker002:] Was it May you changed my pill wasn't it? [speaker003:] Mhm. Aye I mean it might be that there could be something as simple as that that's [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] doing it. Could be something as simple as that. [whispering] sixty two.... Right. []... Now it was Marvelon and I put you on to [speaker002:] No it wasn't Marvelon it was that Trin [speaker003:] Trin [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] Trinordiol. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Trinordiol. [speaker002:] And now it's Norimin.... [speaker003:] So it could It might just be that that's causing the problem. But we'll get you checked out. Now see if we get whether I can get us fitted in. [speaker002:] Mm right. [speaker003:] Might manage it today. [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker003:] Margaret, they couldn't give me on just now. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Can we phone you this afternoon [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] as long as we've got your phone number. [speaker002:] Mhm. Should I take that with me? [speaker003:] brought this back. You hold on to that. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Right. Er and we've got your new phone number. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] Got that. And we'll give you a phone as soon as they get back to us. And if they can do it this afternoon or tomorrow morning, [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] we'll let you know right away. [speaker002:] It shouldn't be too long? [speaker003:] It should Oh no it shouldn't be Hopefully within . [speaker002:] I know. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Right thanks. [speaker003:] Right cheerio now. [recording ends]

[May:] golfing conversations of any use. [speaker003:] Pardon? [May:] Golfing conversations of any use. [speaker003:] No. [May:] Why what's wrong with golf? [speaker003:] Has to be you're not recording. [break in recording] Oh no. But Danny died on Friday morning. Sad too really for [May:] Mm. [speaker003:] for me and I think it might be rather than just record an apology for her absence, I think we should just put in something, just to say that we're that we are very sad [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] that er at Danny's death. And also I think we should record our admiration at how she has coped really over the last few years [Edith:] Do we want to send flowers? [speaker003:] I thought we could come to that later on. [May:] Mhm. [Edith:] Right. [speaker003:] But er I think our admiration for her [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] should be recorded really [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and er [May:] Well that will come in to... the meeting as well. [speaker003:] And the meeting cos we really have [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] to start the reading of the next and last meeting and [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] all that jazz. [Edith:] have to start doing that. Okay? [speaker003:] All right then. [Edith:] Okey doke. [May:] talking about apologies for this meeting. [speaker003:] Can you speak a little bit louder please. [Edith:] No. [May:] Is the tape on. [Edith:] It was. [speaker003:] Yeah. [May:] Oh. Right meeting. [speaker003:] I would have thought it would have been better in the introduction rather as part of the minutes, would you not have thought so? [May:] Well I thought you wanted it in the minutes.. [Edith:] problem. [speaker003:] Well all right we'll ha Okay l let's have the minutes of the last meeting then Joan. [Edith:] Right. Present, May, Edith, Jim, Duncan, Agnes, Margaret, Kell, Barbara and me. Apologies from Anne. The minutes of the previous meeting were ado were read and adopted by Mrs and seconded by Mrs. Matters arising. Mrs N was on the committee, and was welcomed by the ladies captain. Treasurer's report. The following amounts were held in the accounts. Deposit, eight hundred and twenty one. Current, eighty four pound ninety nine. Cash in hand, thirty two pound ninety nine. Making a total of nine hundred and thirty eight pounds ninety eight. Three hundred and eight pounds was for the ladies open, four hundred and twenty for the outing to, two hundred and twenty six had already been paid for the coach, plus all the prizes. Handicap secretary's report. There were ninety entries for the ladies open, and entries have now more or less stopped. Club championship second round was cancelled due to inclement weather, and it final round. the final round will now be played in conjunction with the golf foundation competition for the eighteenth of August. A separate notice will be put up in the locker room, that three person bounce games can now be used for cutting handicap. Secretary's report. A letter was sent to the church council asking for the tea to be reserved from nine thirty until sixteen thirty on the days of the ladies open, fourth of August. And to asked for the cream teas to be retained. This had been agreed. Letters have been sent to Duncan and Willy be once again acting as starters. Duncan agreed, but there was no reply from Willy, due to domestic circumstances. Captain's report. The trophy for the ladies open has not been engraved for the last few years. Helen to be contacted and asked for the plinth so that this can be completed before this years event. Letters to be sent out to local firms as per list. This should be brought up to date for next year. Some donations have already been received, and the treasurer will produce a list, a letter of thanks. Any other business. Outing. Trolleys can be hired at. There'll be one scratch and six handicap prizes for the morning, a scramble for players in the afternoon, with prizes for each of the winning group. There will be the normally prize, plus any prizes to be between the ladies captain and the handicap secretary. Tips, ten pounds for the bus driver, and thirteen pounds for the. The open. It was suggested that a letter be sent to the church council, asking for a notice lower down than at present, to be positioned to ensure ladies from other clubs, find the fifteenth tee. Also that each card, a slip should be inserted, and following competitors of the whole at which the longest driving will take place, where the fifteenth tee is sited. A proposal was put forward to change the outing to a weekday because of the increasing problems of finding a course to accept ladies on a Sunday. It was agreed to hold a vote on the bus this Sunday, as there were people who would normally be attending and also. And also if necessary. Meeting closed, next meeting fifth of July. [speaker003:] Now somebody like to... Dr somebody like to. Well now, business arising from the minutes? [Edith:] Right. [speaker003:] Joan? [Edith:] A letter was sent to the church council. They haven't replied yet, but verbally they said there'd be no problem with the notice. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Edith:] Er I've done the slips and given them to Margaret to be. There was no vote taken on the bus. [speaker003:] On the bus. [Edith:] And Willy has replied [May:] They actually spoke about in at the place right enough. Some of the girls speaking about it. Aye they did. [speaker003:] But then we should have got we we sh We should have done it on the way there, but we forget. There were too [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] many other things being organized. [Edith:] Willy has replied and said, he won't be able to do it because of his domestic circumstances. But erm is going to step in and do it. [May:] Oh that's good. [speaker003:] Good that's that's grand, that's grand. If there's er there's no more word about Bettie at the moment she she's just in the same condition as she's been [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] for the last two or three weeks, yes. [Jim:] Has the plinth been returned? [speaker003:] Who was who was t [May:] Helen [speaker003:] Yes I know Helen has it. Did [May:] Me I would imagine would be contacting. [speaker003:] Oh well we don't know. [Duncan:] as long as it's not [May:] There's nothing in the draw is there? get keys for the drawer. [Edith:] keys. [speaker003:] No. [May:] be in there. [Edith:] and they don't have keys for the door. [May:] Oh well maybe and Gwen if she comes back. [Jim:] Yeah. [May:] . [Jim:] Helen has certainly been asked. Cos I heard [Edith:] Mm. [Jim:] someone asking here about it. [speaker003:] [cough] Try and Is she playing on Wednesday does anybody know? [Jim:] Yeah? [speaker003:] Maybe remind her on Wednesday or find out from her if she you know, asked her. Anything else on there? From the last minutes? Right just. Pardon? [Edith:] Nothing to be added is there? [speaker003:] Don't think so. Apologies for tonight's meeting have been received from Nancy, who is on holiday, and may of course is isn't here because Danny has died. I don't know how many are going to the funeral on Wednesday morning, it's ten o'clock at Sacred Heart. [May:] Where is it, Sacred Heart? [speaker003:] Which is just at the angle [Agnes:] So it's the one down [speaker003:] Just at the angle the he just the junction of Road and on the left hand side here. [speaker001:] There's a car park the church. [May:] Is there. [Agnes:] you can get into the car park if you come down er. [May:] you just turn then before the church, there's a car park there. [speaker001:] before the church. [May:] Is that before you take the the angle? Before you take the angle? You turn in to the right. [speaker001:] Aye coming down from the cross. [May:] And there there's a car park just behind. [speaker003:] There will be a I think there'll be a lot of cars there. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Let's face it, you can cross the r Park across in and walk across. [speaker001:] Mhm. [May:] Yes. [Edith:] You could actually park erm [speaker003:] I don't I don't think there'll be any difficulty. Er [Edith:] Road.. [speaker003:] Anyway the service is at ten o'clock [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] in the Sacred Heart. eleven fifteen. But I know that er the one or two people who told me that they're going, er we were just going to the service in the church and then [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] come on to the and play our golf afterwards. [May:] Mhm. [Jim:] Now I know that I'm going and Alma's going, but we've yet to decide I would rather just go to the crematorium [speaker003:] Well that yes well Aha. Aha. [Jim:] Erm [speaker003:] It's only be [Jim:] . [speaker003:] to the crematorium as well? Or to the church? [Jim:] Well that's what they haven't decided. [speaker003:] I see. [May:] leave a wee note up there or something? [Jim:] I think when [May:] Aha [Jim:] and then coming. [speaker003:] I think I think so because if if we leave it any [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] later than that, it's er I mean to go to the crematorium at quarter past eleven, we wouldn't be back here before twelve o'clock. [May:] No the way we was thinking of going we were just gonna go to the the church to find out how many [speaker003:] Go to the church and then come down. [May:] were gonna go to the church and then we would come back down. [speaker003:] That would [May:] I thought she was leaving a note or something, no? [Jim:] Aye? [May:] did she leave a note? [Jim:] No. [speaker003:] But anybody who wants to to go to the crematorium [May:] Aha, cos I've from her. [speaker003:] rather than to the cos the church service is long, it does take er nearly an hour I believe [May:] Well Marg I mean I phoned Margaret, she said it takes about an hour. [speaker003:] An hour, but down there there'll only be a quarter of an hour. [May:] Mhm. [Edith:] I'm gonna go to the church, but I'm just going straight to work. [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Yes. Yes. I don't know that we should Do we all do we want to go together and sit together or are we just go [Jim:] Yes that would be fine. [speaker003:] I think it probably would. [May:] Mhm. [Jim:] down the Road or whether it was the one here and wasn't sure either. Cos I phoned her this morning. You know what I mean, she wasn't sure. [speaker003:] No, she to she told me on the phone. told me that it's that it's Sacred Heart. [Jim:] Mhm. [speaker003:] So I phoned her last Nancy phoned me last Friday afternoon before she went on holiday to tell me, and I phoned... I wasn't sure whether just to sort of play it low key or then I thought, Well I know I really should just give here a wee ring. sympathy to her and er she she was alright, she was grand. She said that you were been quite shocked though because [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] they'd been ca they'd been called so many times you know when he was low. And er she just sort of that it happened so quickly. But at the same time she said, Well we're pleased because you know, he didn't suffer any pain or anything. Just The the nurse had turned him at half past five in the morning. And when they came to wake him up and get him ready for breakfast to feed him at six o'clock, he was gone. [speaker001:] Ah. could have been a stroke. [speaker003:] They thought it was perhaps just that. You know. A fairly big stroke that just [May:] She's been an absolute brick [speaker003:] She has really We're full of admi admiration for her. She's been ma she's been a really constant The constant devotion that she had [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] for him really was was really super. great And of course her doing it all with her usual [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] wit and good nature that [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] However. So anyway, no more apologies. [speaker001:] flowers no? [speaker003:] Oh flowers Yeah I was going to say, I thought we might send flowers to her maybe on Thursday or Friday. Just let you know, let it get past and then send her some. Some flowers. Yes Joy has a Joy [May:] A friend who's a florist. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker003:] A friend who's a florist and gives a very you know, extremely good value for [speaker001:] Twelve pounds. [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Well... well I know that er Marian's flowers are are they're beautifully arranged too and they're you're getting You'll probably get er a lot more flowers for your money from Marian than you would get from. [speaker001:] No guarantee. If you want to use the guy that you normally use fair enough.... [Edith:] How old was erm Danny? Was he about twenty three? Twenty four? [Jim:] Was he not older than that. [May:] I thought he was about twenty eight. [speaker003:] I understood he was nearer thirty. [Jim:] I know time has stood still really. [speaker003:] been quite a few years she's been [Jim:] Oh Aye. [speaker003:] Well where will where will we [speaker001:] Meet? [speaker003:] No where will [LAUGHTER] Where will we go for the flowers? That's right, fair enough then. Now do you organize that, because you've got the money Edie, is that? Well if you don't mind. [Margaret:] Erm. You might have a slight problem, because we use the same [LAUGHTER] [] I'll I'll try and get out the cash. [speaker003:] Oh of course. [Margaret:] we usually if I want a cheque signed you see or [speaker003:] And it has to be May? [May:] You don't have any cash in hand or anything? [Margaret:] Well at the moment we've got five pounds cash in hand. But I'll make it up, I can always square it up later on. [speaker003:] Yes yes. [May:] books later. [speaker003:] Yes. Yes. Right if Edie wouldn't mind doing that, we'd be pleased. Right now it's your turn Edie for the Treasurer's report. [Margaret:] Right. There's seven hundred and eighty pounds seventy pence in the deposit account. [Edith:] Seven hundred [Margaret:] And eighty pounds seventy P. And forty nine pence in the current account. And Five pound thirty one, cash in hand. Which makes it seven hundred and eighty six pence. Er now three hundred and forty three pounds of that, is for the open day. Cos we've had donations, we've had t twenty five pound donation from. Er and ten pound donation from. [speaker001:] Oh yes? [Margaret:] Erm have given us forty pounds worth of holiday vouchers. [speaker001:] let you know they'll come back from the letters. [speaker003:] Yes Oh that's very good, that's quite a good response then. Who do you have donations m made payable to? Good that's excellent. Does anybody know if we've if we've had any more entries? No? [May:] Perhaps could tell us. [speaker003:] Do we get the treasurer's thingy. [Margaret:] No we. [speaker003:] Do we need a statement about the outing. I assume we didn't make a loss on it. [Margaret:] Well we [May:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] What do you mean, Well? Oh dear was that the wrong question? We had a lovely outing actually. [Margaret:] It's just cos the bus was subsidized that's. [speaker003:] We didn't we did there was no loss. Oh well in that case, a jolly good time was had by all. [Margaret:] we had a good subsidized bus. [speaker003:] Yes.... I think er I think everybody enjoyed the outing. There were a few complaints about the rough was too rough and the coarse was too bad and whatnot, but I quite liked the fact that it was labelled because it meant that Rosemary could and could play the. They wouldn't have managed eighteen holes had it been you know a hilly course. So and we got the benefit of the scenery roundabout. [speaker001:] It was good. You do appreciate you own course when you come back. Oh Appreciate the fairways. [speaker003:] Well we played Monday, and would do anything to have 's greens. [speaker001:] Well certainly the greens were long but the fairways were about The greens were good Oh aye, I got my feet rather wet, from being in the bog. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Bit steep for us, thirty quid a round. So we have the report from from you Edie. [Margaret:] My secr No no, I haven't got my secretary's report here. and we can't er the handicap secretary's not here yet so we don't know. Captain's not here, so I don't know. Pardon? [speaker001:] A vice captain's one? [Margaret:] I didn't w I didn't win anything. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Now that was a very good idea actually. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Giving us a consolation prize of a golf ball. Yes yes [Jim:] Yes it was. Mhm very good. [speaker003:] I think that was good, we'll keep that in mind for next year. [Jim:] Mhm. [Edith:] Have we decided for next year? [speaker003:] Well [May:] Well I think we are round to any other business I suppose. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [May:] Next year's outing could come u [LAUGHTER] [Edith:] I wrote down in the book, some of the places. There was,, West Lothian,, and. But I couldn't get a phone number for that one. [speaker003:] , it's it's Golf course, and it's the Golf Club. The Golf Course is [Edith:] I think yes [speaker003:] . [Edith:] Aye. Erm I couldn't get Greenbaum. Somebody told me Greenbaum was lovely, come to the house [speaker001:] get at weekends? [Edith:] No. [speaker001:] No. [Edith:] is thirty pounds... Thirty pounds a head. Edinburgh and it's thirty pounds a day. Erm, I've just got a phone number to phone them., no Sunday. Erm what was the other one? West Lothian,. They're yes it's quite a late. [speaker001:] Well it's not very [Edith:] It's hilly but it's not it's not as bad as [speaker001:] It's not strenuous. [Edith:] as from what I gather. [speaker001:] It's not strenuous. [Edith:] And the problem with that is that is like a tiny boxroom. It really is very very small. [speaker001:] But the problem with the ladies room is too small I asked the ladies captain what they did. considering we're going as far what about. [Edith:] No we just no it was just, people had said these things and won't take on a Sunday. But I just said put them down in the book. [speaker001:] were coming back weren't they? West Lothian, West Lothian we've already written to West Lothian and it was too early. Aha. They don't know the dates Right. Mhm. until the fixture list is completed next year. keep the letter and try and contact us Mhm. again in nineteen ninety four. Right. Mhm. So you're gonna have to gonna start writing letters we're gonna make sure we West Lothian's locker room is half the size of ours. Not counting the toilets. Mhm. I asked the captain what they did when they did when they had ladies parties? She says, Oh well we just sort of all move along. But you're all arriving at the one time. I mean That's right that's right, yeah. [cough] No [cough] it's not m it's not much it's not much further than. [Edith:] These are only names that people have mentioned and I wrote them down, I write them down. [speaker001:] It's not much further than. And the the road has been improved. So you should be well with a decent bus you should get the course [Jim:] Well I enjoyed it. [speaker003:] was one of the places that we. The clubhouse is lovely. [Jim:] Aha, the clubhouse is lovely. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker003:] And the food was very nice you said. [Jim:] I we I went and looked at it I looked at it, it looked all right and I thought [speaker001:] We went to the opening, wondered why it was, met everybody. And then we got out on the course and we realized. [Jim:] You knew why. [speaker001:] People had been before and [Edith:] Cos I think we've written to them about three or four times. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Edith:] Keeps being on my list [speaker003:] It is very difficult a Sunday, but it Actually although we didn't take a vote on the bus, the few people that I did speak to a few people, and they were not terrible exited at the idea of of an outing during the week. Well for one thing we have got really have quite a few school teachers now who just couldn't get off during How many school teachers do we have Agnes? [Jim:] Well I don't know I haven't look through the list. [May:] bringing it into July or are too many people on holiday in July? Even the first week in July. [speaker001:] Mhm. Even the first week. [speaker003:] Well where's Nancy, she's away for a start. [speaker001:] Mm. [May:] But she wasn't away till the third or the fourth, if you could get it within the very first few days [speaker003:] So at the mo at the moment what [Edith:] Joyce is a school teacher. [May:] she knows you and her name's Joyce. And know her. [speaker003:] What are the what are the possibilities that we have then? and West Lothian. [May:] and West Lothian both said it's too early didn't they. [Edith:] 's kept us on file and will give us the first date available in June. Er is the same. Erm [speaker003:] But we weren't interested in were we? [Edith:] Er is that all you mentioned? [May:] West Lothian, that was too early and we're to write back to. [Jim:] You're really as well leaving I know We've had a lot of problems. Well you used to be able to book up a over a year in advance. But it's getting now there's there's no way they're gonna take you. I mean I had the same problem when I was secretary. That Joan's having now. [Edith:] Mhm. [Jim:] You know every time you go it was too early, too early right back. There was very few who were willing to take [May:] Mhm. I think it's they're booking [Jim:] told to put nineteen ninety five on the ledger as well. [speaker001:] Nineteen ninety five? [speaker003:] I like the sound of I like the the distance it's away and er [May:] I would think it would be depend on the weather. [speaker003:] Well that depends the weather depends most courses And God knows how that bus' ll get to. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Even if it's the same bus. You've actually been here just yourself How how did you find it. [Margaret:] Well I found it difficult because I I still cannae play golf well, but I could play even less well then. But if you hit When you're going round this hill, if you hit to the right, the ball always came like too many. enjoyed it. All the rest of them that could play golf enjoyed it, because [speaker001:] we're not going to play golf, we're going to have a good time. [May:] Some place where we can enjoy ourselves. [Jim:] But it's you get a terrific view once you've [speaker003:] Yes I was going to say that. The views should will be quite nice from parts of that course I would think. Just just thinking of itself, I don't know the course. [Jim:] You're going round clockwise one way and anticlockwise the other. [May:] There was a lot of congestion the night we were there. A lot of [Jim:] Mm? [May:] hold ups. We could see people You know, why that would be I don't know and I thought possibly [speaker003:] times when you couldn't see beyond that hole. [May:] Aye, I though, Well maybe it's a difficult hole and there's hazards or something. [speaker003:] Do you think it's worth writing to Has anybody else any thoughts about? Do you know golf club? [May:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker003:] Cos they changed since we were there. It used to be beautiful. The club house beautiful cos we've got Aha a wee course and a big course. You played there [speaker001:] We went there we went there last Easter. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker001:] For the weekend. [speaker003:] Have you any idea what the green fees would be there? It's going to make the cost of the outing very expensive. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Jim:] And did you get round it alright? [speaker001:] We've still got [Edith:] Pam reckons it was thirty pounds. [May:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah that's well that's I think that would make our er outing very very expensive. Maybe too expensive for some of the members. [speaker001:] That was one of the advantages of you know Mhm. That's right. As well as being flat it was very cheap. [Edith:] look at then if it's municipal. [speaker003:] I think we are goi we are going to have to face the fact that we are not going to get an outing [speaker001:] Is municipal? [May:] Well [speaker003:] for l for [speaker001:] Is it? [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] For less than thirty pounds [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] going to a private club. [speaker001:] I thought it was quite expensive the last time we wrote there as well.... [speaker003:] Well this i this i I feel that er I think your weekend fees are always dearer than your week [speaker001:] it was not before It's got wide open fairways. [speaker003:] Well we played at before but we [speaker001:] But the food we we didn't like the food, but you could always arrange to eat somewhere place else. [May:] I I thought was a. [speaker003:] It was really it was really a lovely too wasn't it. Remember how hot it was. [speaker001:] Mhm. five minutes Well I didn't enjoy because [May:] Every every element available was there. [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] Well another thing is the the fees are quite expensive at weekends. [speaker001:] Are they? Are they. [Jim:] They have gone up considerably.. [speaker003:] oh yes. Now that Gleneagles don't have the princes and the Glendevon, they've just got that Monarch course now, more and more people are playing because they realize it's it's next door. [speaker001:] heading down that way, is there nothing down there?... [speaker003:] I don't [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [May:] what about in East Kilbride? Have you played there? [speaker003:] is [Jim:] Yeah. [speaker003:] lovely. We played a well we went to the open last year, quite a few of us, and we're going again er and w It wasn't a particularly nice day but we thought if it's it was a nice day, this would really be a lovely course. [Edith:] I've got the number but no price. [speaker003:] What what their food and everything is like, I I wonder what [speaker001:] Well we could get the bus to take us a long route. No. [Jim:] What to East Kilbride? [speaker001:] Aha. [Jim:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And just pretend we're going far away. [May:] It doesn't matter how far you go see the see the the time we went to. There was one particular hole and I looked at it and thought, in a million years we will never get up there. And I thought, you would need a miracle to get up there. And I thought well well there's just no, I've just gotta get up. And all of a sudden as I was climbing the hill I thought, Oh gosh, this trolley seems to be coming up here no problem. It is a miracle. pulled her own trolley. and you know how sod in rain. And she was pulling her trolley, pushing mine and there was me toddling up there thinking, This trolleys become But er about? What. [speaker001:] Did you say was very hilly? [Jim:] It's I don't think it's hilly, because you're up the hill, you're already up the hill. You're right up the top of the hill. [speaker003:] I would I would think it'll be very expensive. [Jim:] There is a lot of cardie [Edith:] visitors welcome weekdays only Yes fifteen pounds at weekends. [May:] What, fifteen pence? [LAUGHTER] [Edith:] Pounds. But you can't play at weekends. [speaker003:] No. Sunday's quite a problem. [May:] Do you think it's worth enquiring about even though it's not very far. [speaker003:] Yes.... What about our open day by the way? I don't know there's anything else we need to organize. [speaker001:] have parties on Sundays? [Edith:] No. it just says on the book weekdays only. [May:] Weekdays only. [speaker001:] I know they all are though aren't they? [speaker003:] Well is out then of course. If we're talking Sunday. [Jim:] How did you get on? [speaker001:] How did you do? Seventy five. [speaker003:] I think your would be too high at. [May:] I don't think they'd take you in on a Sunday either? [Jim:] I don't think you would go on a Sunday at. [speaker003:] I can't imagine we'd get Sunday. [Edith:] it was all the names. Greenbaum. [speaker001:] Well Greenbaum's nice. [speaker003:] Somebody had said something about that earlier. [speaker001:] if we're talking about going to the you can go down to play the course there, you'd only get one round played. [speaker003:] We could also get very [LAUGHTER] wet weather [] [speaker001:] What's the course like Joan? [Edith:] Alright. [speaker003:] Mm. Just as long as not a South Westerly or a gale. [Edith:] is quite a long course as well. [May:] There's no bunkers at. [Edith:] Yes there are I was seventeen on that. [speaker003:] It says that in the book thing, there's no bunkers. [Jim:] Now how is [speaker003:] Do you think we should leave it till leave it till after our open day? And then then by about September we can we might get a few more positive answers. [Jim:] You'll get responses. [speaker001:] Sunday. [speaker003:] Fine so we know that they take visitors. [Edith:] Except Saturdays. Visitors welcome except Saturdays. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Fees? [Edith:] Fees are fifteen pounds. [May:] I'm positive I didn't really mean yes I was really meaning we might get some answers that aren't nearer next year. [Edith:] Fifteen pounds is a day, it's that's at weekends. It's twelve pounds a round or fifteen pounds a day. Full facilities available for eating. [speaker003:] I think it's Where's that? West Lothian it's on the side of a hill, but how hilly I don't know. Sixty eight. Well maybe we should leave this till after the open day, and then we can really concentrate on it. [May:] Go through the You take the book home, and you come up with ideas for the next meeting. [speaker003:] How many people have been through? [Jim:] You're actually better asking people. [speaker003:] Well I think, there are [May:] When you c when you're going up the hills, they're long gradients, you're not really aware of them. And there's a quite a lot of hills heading down. [Jim:] But we're not sure of facilities. [speaker003:] Mhm. [May:] And doesn't [speaker003:] we were discussing last year. [Jim:] Where is it. [May:] It's in the address book. [Jim:] How I quite enjoyed it but it's got deep bunkers. [speaker003:] I think we should study the book further and maybe wait till after the come back to it after our open day [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] Now we need the minutes secretary's report now that she has er arrived. [May:] Well she wasn't going to come so it wasn't that exciting. [LAUGHTER]. [Kell:] Right ninety four, for the open day now. Er from last time. I need to looking for one person, someone. [Jim:] Who? [Kell:] Er that but never says anything positive. So I haven't bought anything. [speaker001:] About half eleven, eleven thirty six. [Kell:] My mum had tried some but she's [May:] What handicap has this person got?. [speaker001:] Oh that? Aye that. She's got a caravan down I know who you mean. [Kell:] Yes. [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] [Kell:] Right. [speaker001:] Er I'll ask if she can find anyone else. What time? [Kell:] About eleven thirty six. [speaker001:] Well that's when Right eleven thirty six. [Kell:] Yes. [speaker001:] Right. [Kell:] And the only thing is that finally after three months of waiting for the received all their medals and things for so it can go ahead. [LAUGHTER] They had asked for stationery and the medals that you know. Sent me two sheets for the official ledger, two sheets peoples handicaps, three medals and two medal certificates and that was the whole Also I've got to say, I've had a letter back from the F L G about the letter about. . [speaker001:] . [Kell:] ample facilities and we've got to use the facilities offered for nothing by members. [speaker001:] Mm. Yes well there you are. I rather suspected the the competition [May:] I don't think they'll bother. [speaker001:] qualifies to play in it will not [May:] People will not go [Jim:] No. [May:] And maybe then they'll get the message. [Jim:] Other than that I've got nothing to do. [speaker003:] Well the the other thing about er that involves Margaret is the arrangements for this Wednesday. [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Because [May:] Yes I was going to say about to try and start later in the morning if that would suit people. [speaker003:] Well that was well this is the idea, because the funeral's ten o'clock. [May:] I had suggested it yesterday [speaker003:] And it will be eleven before the service is finished, so the earliest I think we should [May:] I think quarter to twelve. [speaker003:] I thought half past eleven tee off. I assume everybody's just going to come straight round. [May:] Yeah. [speaker003:] There. [May:] Because I'd sort of said that [speaker003:] It's No I was going to say, there are those perhaps who'd h haven't heard and those who don't know about it. If somebody if they turn up at the normal time, I assume when though there's you know we could leave a not a not a notice and they could just go out. [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I mean, that means there's no draw I suppose that those of us who've been could have a quick draw when we [May:] Well in my [speaker003:] . I mean there's nothing to stop them doing that. [Jim:] Who how many people are there? [speaker001:] Location fourteen miles North of Dumfries. Parkland, erm weekends, fourteen pounds. Eating facilities available, except Monday. Margaret, me, Carol, Morag,. Now I don't know about Morag you know, and Mae knows. It's a well e aye. [May:] Are you playing in the morning? And so you were going as well. So it's just a matter, as soon as we come back, get out. [speaker003:] Yes. [May:] That's it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker003:] So we don't really need to make a set time actually, if we're all there we just all come and we just. [speaker001:] ... [May:] Right. [speaker003:] Right so that er well that, there really isn't a problem then on Wednesday morning. Margaret. [Jim:] It's not in the book? [speaker001:] ... ... [speaker003:] Right, can we go on to the open day? [speaker001:] Erm [Kell:] Not till I get my pen back. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] Do you want this one then?... [speaker003:] We should really get, organize [speaker001:] I mean Mae'll be around as of next week. I don't think she'll be staying off for any great length of time, with the open day coming up I think she'll be quite keen to get back so, we don't want to go. [Kell:] I think she'll find life abnormal enough do the normal routine she does she'll maybe think. I mean the if she were going to be next week or something, she'll maybe want to organize most of it herself. [speaker001:] Aha. [May:] We should put notices up soon ab asking for donations for her tombola We could start doing that. [speaker003:] Thank you. [May:] Maybe as of open day Margaret, we were saying that we er we should really put the notices up asking for donations for the tombola. And do you think we start selling raffles tickets, any time. Is it too soon or is it [Jim:] having a raffle. [Edith:] The tombola took in [Jim:] Aye. [Edith:] about two hundred pounds. [speaker001:] And everybody brings stuff for it. [Margaret:] Black fishnets? [Jim:] No they were [speaker001:] [break in recording] [May:] quite sure he hasn't heard of before. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I'll tell you about it at the end.. Did you not realize Carol there was [May:] You're on tape, you're Candid Camera. [Jim:] I didn't know what it was there for. [speaker003:] Aye well that's recording us. [Jim:] to get everything in the minutes. [May:] Well this is for blackmail purposes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] So apart from that, do we need do we start do we wait till next week before we start selling raffle tickets? [May:] Do you know if Helen has got the for the [Jim:] Well there are prizes. [May:] If anybody says, What are the prizes? I'll say see Agnes cos she knows [speaker003:] Never mind the prizes [Jim:] And Agnes' ll. [speaker003:] And all the lady members always either before or on the day, come up with bags of stuff for the tombola. [May:] Oh yes we always. [Jim:] And we've got the two I've got the two [speaker003:] Great. Yes. Eventually. [Jim:] Eventually. [May:] I want one, I want one. [Jim:] They're lovely actually, they're nice [speaker003:] we were in town on Saturday and I saw two really nice sports bags, but we had so many parcels I I didn't hadn't the heart to suggest to Bill we [Jim:] Aha. [speaker003:] buy any more. But I'll I'll go and get them soon. now got two A A books, this years of that, similar to that. two sets of head covers. And other things. [May:] we were talking about them, we were raising money to to buy extra practice [Jim:] Were we? You don't need it then it just goes, you know it can go into the [May:] We need raffle tickets. [speaker003:] Oh we need to get raffle tickets, Obviously this Wednesday, till we get more. I suppose so. [Jim:] Of course we can start selling raffle tickets. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] What else do we need? [Jim:] That's a shame. Oh listen Margaret do you know looking for the the plinth in the drawer. [speaker003:] No we'll find it. Anything else we have to do for the open day? [Jim:] Do you want a typewritten sheet, remember last year you had a typewritten sheet.... [speaker003:] Well that's right, we don't actually need that. I remember sitting helping to write the cards the night before and we were writing them off a typewritten sheet. Is the any to compare the the entries we have this year with the entries we got last year. And see who's not coming this year that did last year. It just might be somebody we know, and jog them along and say [May:] those lists you did, those typewritten lists from last year. [Edith:] probably destroyed but they should be on disk. They should still be disk. [speaker003:] It might be worth going through them and er anybody we think [Edith:] Aye cos I mean we we thought [May:] We should do this for the mixed open as well, keep a a note of the entries from one year to the other and you can get in touch with people and say, Are you playing or not [speaker003:] We don't have all that many places left do we [May:] how many can we take all together. Is the morning getting full. [speaker003:] The morning's just about full [May:] Well it might be worth looking through last year's list in the day. [speaker003:] Right if Edie can manage to find that, if she doesn't mind. [Margaret:] Well and do you want me to do one for this year? [speaker003:] Yes. [May:] Who does the notices that go up? [Jim:] we ask to help. [speaker003:] I d think we can leave that actually till just nearer [Jim:] I was told that 's just verbally agreed rather than [speaker001:] Aha. [Jim:] officially agreed. [speaker003:] Yeah. But it is nice if they are asked, sometimes it's sometimes they are just expected to do and if they haven't been officially asked. It's nice no to be forgotten about as well. [LAUGHTER] That happens that's happened in the [May:] Yeah I think [speaker003:] past. [May:] Yes cos they've been starting [speaker003:] Oh that would be good cos I was going to say normally, is er sort of up in that corner in charge of the tombola but er [Jim:] Just don't [speaker003:] This is the some the th one of the things I was going to suggest about I was going to leave it till next meeting, is that we we try and organize ourselves so that we are not su Last year I found myself sitting there frantically writing names on raffle tickets, knowing I was going out to play in about ten minutes, but there was nobody there to take over. [May:] Well that's it. You know I should be back when there's somebody going away [speaker003:] Well we could maybe leave it till the next committee meeting to to organize ourselves to So we know what sort of times we're expected to be sort of selling raffle tickets and [May:] Another thing, it's quite easy to get mixed up. And it's better really if one person does it. I don't know if Anne wants to do it or not. Is putting the numbers on the tombola. On the prizes [speaker003:] Well I was going to say [May:] That's quite a lot of work for [speaker003:] It is [Jim:] Yes but on the day, people are walking up there with carrier bags full of the stuff, and it's got to be done, and put out. [May:] Maybe the week before Is all the stuff coming here this time though was taking it all home. [speaker003:] There's nowhere to store it [Agnes:] I took it home last year. [speaker003:] Well we need maybe I don't know [Agnes:] I had everything in in the house any anything that they'd brought up early beforehand. [speaker003:] That's right. [Jim:] the stuff down the night before with the [Agnes:] Yes. [Jim:] numbers on it? [speaker003:] Perhaps we should leave that for Mae cos maybe Mae would like to do that herself. If she If she has room at home. [May:] Right yes I would agree. [speaker003:] Okay? [May:] Mhm. [speaker003:] We'll just leave that for the meantime and keep We'll we'll remember. We can't just leave it till our next meeting cos it only is [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] I'll maybe speak to her about it a week, a week on Wednesday I I assume she'll be back then. Try and remember to say to her. [Jim:] I might have a problem my daughter's expecting on the twenty first of this month. And I intend to go down to London. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Jim:] Right now I'd hoped but if she's late. [speaker003:] Yes yes. [Jim:] problem. [speaker003:] Well don't worry about it I can do I can I can sort out [Margaret:] I'm gonna ask Moira to do the cheque, write the cheque. [Jim:] What cheque? [Margaret:] The presentation cheque. [speaker003:] Now don't worry about it, I'll help you with that anyway Edie. [speaker001:] already had a list. [Jim:] I don't know whether there'll only be one or not. [speaker003:] Yes well Bill and and Margaret. Usually usually Charlie helps down the and Sam usually. [May:] Is he going to help? [speaker001:] working. [May:] Oh you're working. How dare you be working? [speaker001:] day is it? [May:] Wednesday. You're working. [speaker001:] might be on holiday. [speaker003:] It's just so we can send you an official love letter. [Jim:] You can't be on holiday. You can't go away on holiday, Helen's got to be here on the day. [speaker003:] It's Helen's place [speaker001:] I don't know when we're starting back, I'm not sure. [Jim:] No you start on the Thursday, you keep Wednesday off. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Funny that isn't it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] we just get started we get Do you get the raffle tickets too? Edie? Is that [Margaret:] I get the raffle tickets. [speaker001:] I could probably get cheap ones.... [speaker003:] As long as they can tear. They're very hard when you're in a hurry. [speaker001:] What were you doing? About a fiver or something [Jim:] So each of those big books with a thousand tickets only cost me a pound. They're over two pounds if you buy them in John Menzies. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker003:] It's easy to take off the outside when when you come to take the inside ones it's quite difficult. [speaker001:] Sometimes the inside ones depend how carefully the the ones on top [speaker003:] That that's right. And it it's easy when you're not busy, but if you get a spell of being busy,. [May:] How much are the raffle tickets going to be? The usual fifty pence a strip? Making it clear to them they get they get it's not they're not going in in strips, they're g they're getting five chances for their fifty pence. [speaker003:] It's very common nowadays [May:] I know but it's only giving you one [speaker003:] I think it's better if you give them fi They'll buy more tickets if they're getting [speaker001:] I think they'll just buy a strip anyway. [speaker003:] That's right you don't want just to have four chances, you want to have twenty chances. [speaker001:] No I was saying if I was saying if I was going to spend that on raffle tickets, it wouldn't matter if I was getting [speaker003:] The other thing is we sometimes get children around and they come and they just want to buy. You know two tickets. [Jim:] Well their mother'll have to give them [speaker003:] I think we just we should stick to er giving them five chances for their. [Jim:] It just means like a person could more people have the opportunity of winning. [speaker003:] It's perfect to we're going to get raffle tickets and hopefully get started selling them. A week on Wednesday or so. Yes I think. [Margaret:] This Wednesday? [May:] Right okay we just we [Jim:] If you start on those two books and then [Margaret:] Oh I see. Ju I thought you were talking about the tombola when you were saying fifty pence a strip, sorry. [speaker003:] Something like that yes. [Jim:] Is that the usual. [speaker003:] So we get more raffle tickets this week. Is there anything else that we Right those are the the most imp urgent things, get the notices up and er Who does the by the way Who is it Will you please do them this year Agnes? [Jim:] No. [speaker003:] Have you time? [Jim:] Probably. Thank goodness tomorrow? For Wednesday. [speaker003:] Wednesday. [Jim:] I'll see if I c if I've got any paper lying about the house. [speaker003:] Can anybody think of anything else? [Jim:] That's no problem. [speaker003:] Any other er business? [Margaret:] I'd like to ask something, I don't know if it's got anything to do with it or not, but it really annoyed me yesterday. And that was the eighth green not being on. [speaker003:] Well [Margaret:] And what I was playing was an official competition. [speaker003:] It was an official competition. [speaker001:] It's because [speaker003:] Yes well that's that was noth Yesterday was nothing whatsoever to do with the L G U or the ladies section. But tomorrow we'll be on the the green. And we will be playing from the tee which is at the front left hand corner. What sh happened yesterday actually was, that the big flag on the new green, should have been taken out. But it wasn't. The front corner front left hand corner of that of the new tee, is our official tee and er that's where it will stay a onto the new green. It's a par three and I'm assured that it measures more than the hundred and forty yards required for us to be par three. That was a mistake. The big flag should have been taken off the the new green and it wasn't. [Margaret:] that that green wasn't put on for that competition. [speaker003:] Well I would agree with you there but that's we weren't running it, and we'd nothing to do with er with the organizing of yesterday's. So there should be no problem on Wednesday at all on Wednesday. But that is we we're going to go We'll on Wednesday officially we'll be on the new green. [speaker001:] for extra day scores then [speaker003:] It's still a par three. See we're that's what makes us well that's what makes us seventy two now. Any other er Any other er business then ladies? I think [May:] Next meeting. [speaker003:] The next meeting I think we'd already agreed it was going to be the first Monday in August which I think is the [speaker001:] [recording ends]

[speaker001:] under our usual conditions, exhibited in. We start today, number one, with a silver charm bracelet. silver charm bracelet, with the charms on it, ten pounds for it. The charm bracelet, five pounds for it then. five. Any advance on advance on five? Six, seven, eight, nine, ten gentleman up here on my right hand, ten pounds. Any advance on ten pounds? Have you all finished ten pounds? Any advance on ten pounds? Number four, ten pounds. And number two, well necklace and two rings. necklace and two rings., five pound for them. six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. Twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four? Gentleman twenty four pound. Any advance on twenty pounds twenty four pounds. Number four, twenty four pounds.... Lot number three, watches, here you have a ring watch. A stone set ring watch and a ladies bracelet watch, two together, ten pounds for them. Two pounds. bid, any advance on two pounds? Four, five, six, seven, eight. Any advance on eight pounds? Nine I'm bid. [speaker002:] Ten, eleven, twelve. Any advance on twelve pound? Any advance on twelve pound? twelve pound. Any advance on twelve pound. Number four twelve pounds. Lot four, two watches again this time. two watches again, the designer a watch and a ladies bracelet watch,. Ten pounds again for the two. Five pounds again for them then. Five, five I'm bid. Any advance on five pounds? Six I'm bid. Seven, eight, nine. Any adva Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten? for them. Any advance on ten pounds for the two watches? ten pounds. Number four ten pounds. And on to lot number five, an eighteen carat gold necklace this. This eighteen carat stone set necklace. Ah it's a nice necklace. On ten again to start it. Ten I'm bid. And advance on ten pounds, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. Any advance on eig Twenty pounds, twenty two. Any advance on twenty two pounds? Any advance on twenty two pounds for. Twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds. Any adva Thirty two. There's a gentleman seated there in the thirty two pounds. Thirty two pounds. And number seventy six, thirty two pounds. Number six five silver chains, there we are five silver neck chains. ten pounds the lot. Ten pounds for five silver neck chains. Five pounds? Five I'm bid. Any advance on Six I'm bid. Seven. Are you all finished then? seven pounds. Any advance on seven pounds seven pounds for them. Number four, seven pounds. And number seven, a nine carat gold insignia ring. There you are, rings. Twenty pounds. Ten ten I'm bid. Any advance on Twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? Twenty pounds, new bidder. Twenty two. Any advance on twenty two. twenty two pound. Any advance on twenty pounds the lot? Number four, twenty two pounds. Number eight, a ni er an amber ring this time. There you are, a nine carat er amber ring. Well it's a nice piece of amber. Well ten pounds again to start. ten. Any advan Five then. Five I'm bid. Six in the front now. Seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. gentleman here now. Thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? Gentleman here in the front eighteen pound. Any advance on eighteen pound. Eighteen pound. Number eighty two, eighteen pounds. Number nine, two necklets. Well, stone pendant and this little cut set necklace. and a stone necklace. make up your own about them. There you are, ten pounds the two. Ten po Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds for two necklaces? And advance on twelve for the lady? Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty. A lady twenty. Any advance on twenty pounds for two necklaces? All finished now at twenty pounds the lot. twenty pounds. Twenty five, twenty pounds. Number ten, some miscellaneous jewellery again, assorted jewellery. Including this holograph pendant. miscellaneous jewellery. again now, ten pounds again for the lot. Five pounds for it then. jewellery five. want it. Three I'm bid. Any advance on three pounds, the miscellaneous jewellery now? Any advance on three Four I'm bid. Five. Any advance on five? A lady in at five pound. Any advance on five pounds the lot. five pounds. Number thirty eight, five pounds. Number eleven, two watches again. Here you are, the two watches. There you are a ladies watch, a cocktail watch and a Seiko bracelet watch. The two again. Ten pounds again to start them. Ten pound? Ten I'm bid this time. Any advance on ten pound? Ele Twelve I'm bid. Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? eighteen? Any advance on eighteen pound for the lot. going in at eighteen pounds for two. And it's buyer forty three, eighteen pounds. Number twelve, the hunter watch. A hunter watch this time. There you are gent's hunter. hunter, thirty pounds for it. Ten again to start it then. Ten ten I'm bid. Any advance on Twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty. Any advan Thirty two. Any advance on thirty two? Thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight. Any advance on thirty eight. thirty eight pounds. Any advance on thirty pounds for the hunter watch? At thirty eight pounds. Buyer eighty, thirty eight pounds. Number thirteen, a nine carat six bar bracelet. There you are, nine carat gold, er gate bracelet. And we'll have it again, a nice gate bracelet. Thirty pounds for it. For the nine carat gate bracelet. ten again to start it then. Ten? Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pound? Twelve I'm bid. Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight. Th the gentleman at twenty eight. Are you all finished now at twenty eight pound? any advance on twenty eight pound the lot., twenty eight pounds. Number four, twenty eight pounds. Number fourteen, a nine carat er gate bracelet again, this time. Now that's a nice gate bracelet. And it has space for taking two sovereigns. nice er heavy gate bracelet, and we'll have it again now. There you are. hundred pounds for it. Well fifty pounds to start it I'm bid. Any advance on Fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, one hundred pounds, one five, one ten, one fifteen. The gents bid sitting in the front row, at one hundred and fifteen pound. Any advance on one hundred and fifteen pounds the lot? At one hundred and fifteen pound. Number four, one hundred and fifteen pounds. And number fifteen, a nine carat and. nice nine nine carat and jewel this time. jewel, nine carat gold one. A nice jewel there you are, and I'm bid There you are fifty eight. Any advance on fifty eight pound jewel? Any advance on fifty eight? Sixty, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy pounds, seventy two. Any advance on seventy two pounds, the masonic jewel. Are you all finished now at seventy two pounds the lot. At seventy two pounds. And it's buyer number seventy two, seventy two pounds. And number sixteen, a nine carat sovereign bracelet again this tim. And it's set with one sovereign. There you are, this sovereign bracelet with one sovereign again. And we'll have it there now. One hundred pounds again for the sovereign and the bracelet. Well fifty pounds again to start it. Fifty pounds the lot. fifty? fifty I'm bid. Any advance on Fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy pounds, seventy two, seventy five. Any advance on seventy five? Lady's bid now seventy five pound. Any advance on seventy five pounds the lot? Seventy eight, eighty pounds. Any advance on eighty? The bids eighty pound. Any advance pounds the lot? At eighty pounds. Buyer forty one, eighty pounds. to lot number seventeen. diamond and sapphire ring this time. There you are, the diamond sapphire cluster ring. A nice diamond sapphire cluster ring. Three hundred pounds for it. The diamond sapphire cluster ring. I'm bid. Any advance on two hundred pounds the lot? Two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty. Any advance on three hundred and twenty pounds, the diamond sapphire cluster ring? three hundred and twenty pounds. The lot at three hundred and twenty pounds. Buyer forty one, three hundred and twenty pounds. And on to lot number eighteen, a silver pocket watch this time. There you are the silver engraved silver pocket watch, a nice little pendant watch, and we'll have it again now. There you are, thirty pounds again for the watch. Ten again to start it then. Ten. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pound for the lot? Are you all finished now at ten? twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, Any advance on twent Twenty eight I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? Thirty pounds I'm bid. There's a gentleman now at thirty pound. Any advance on thirty pounds for pendant watch. Are you all finished now at thirty pounds. The lot at thirty pounds. Number twenty three, thirty pounds. Number nineteen, a twenty two carat gold bracelet. It's eighteen. Well there you are eighteen carat gold er bracelet, there you are stone set bangle. Well this eighteen carat stone set bangle. Fifty pounds for it. stone set bangle. Thirty pounds then? Let's get going. thirty? Thirty I'm bid. Any advance on thirty pound. thirty two. Thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two. Any advance on forty two? Forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight. Any advance on fifty eight pounds? now fifty pound. Any advance on fifty eight pound for the lot? going in at fifty eight pounds. Buyer seventy two, fifty eight pounds. And lot number twenty, nine carat gold metal court bangle. There you are gold bangle, have it again. There you are. Ten pounds again for the bangle. Ten pounds or it? Five I'm bid. Any advance on five? Six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Any advance on ten pounds? eleven I'm bid. now eleven. Any advance on eleven pounds? Twelve. Any advance on twelve? A gent's bidding in the centre at twelve pound. Any advance on twelve pound? are you all finished now at twelve pound. And the number is one oh two, twelve pounds. Number twenty one, the Tudor watch. A ladies shape tudor watch this time. A nice gold tudor watch with a gold bracelet. have it again. Thirty pounds again to start it. Nice gold tudor watch. Twenty. Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pound? Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight. It's again to the gentleman bidding at my right now. Thirty eight pound. Any advance on thirty eight pounds, the watch. Are you all finished now? It's going in at thirty eight pounds the lot. Thirty eight pounds. Number four, thirty eight pounds. Number twenty two, the gold southern cross brooch this time. A stone set er southern cross brooch. There you are. have it again. A nice gold brooch gold southern cross brooch. Ten pounds again for the gold souther cross brooch. Ten pounds again for it. Five again to start it I'm bid. Any advance on five? Six to the lady, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. Any advance on fourteen. A lady on my left now fourteen pound. Any advance on fourteen pound? The lot at fourteen pound. Twenty five, fourteen pounds. Number twenty three, a sapphire ring again this time. yellow sapphire. Well that's a nice dress ring, it's a nice dress ring. They say it's a yellow sapphire that's time. Well you've made up your own mind about it. There you are, forty pounds for it then. Well twenty again to start it. Twenty. Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pound? Any advance on twenty pound for this er ring? Twenty two is the gent, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. Any advance on thirty two? I'm bid thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two. Any advance on forty two pound? Any advance on forty two pound the lot. Are you all finished then? It's going in at forty two pound. Fifty seven this time, forty two pounds. Number twenty four, a ring again. There you are, gold dress ring again this tim. Nice little dress ring. Ten pounds again for the dress ring. Ten pounds for it? A dress ring. Should be worth ten pounds for it.. Eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. Any advance on fourteen? Lady on my right at fourteen pound. Any advance on fourteen pounds? The lot at fourteen pounds. Number nineteen, fourteen pounds. Number twenty five, a gold gate bracelet. There you are, a little four bar gate bracelet this time. A nice little gold bracelet with a padlock, twenty pounds for it. Ten again to start with then, ten twenty, ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? At the back twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four pounds? A gentleman on my right again at twenty four pound. Any advance on twenty four pounds the lot? Twenty four pounds. Number four, twenty four pounds. And number twenty six, a gold diamond sapphire ring. Well there you are, they say it's diamond and sapphire eternity ring. Well there you are make up your own minds. There you are was we have it again now. there you are, thirty pounds for it, eternity ring. Thirty pounds the lot. Ten again to start it then. Ten pounds again for the eternity ring. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? my right now, twelve. Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two. Any advance on twenty two? right now twenty two pounds. Any advance on twenty two pounds the lot, twenty two pounds. And it's number four, twenty two pounds. Number twenty seven, a diamond eternity ring again this time. There you are, a nice little diamond sort of boat shaped eternity ring this time, there you are it's a nice little eternity ring. Thirty pounds for this one. Nice modern ring. Ten again to start it then. Ten I'm bid, the lady at ten. Twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds. a lady's bid this time at thirty pounds. A lady here on my left now thirty pound. Any advance on thirty pound the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at thirty pounds the lot, thirty pounds. Twenty five, thirty pounds. Number twenty eight, a diamond sapphire ring again. Now here you are, a triple cluster ring, diamond sapphire triple cluster ring this time. There you are, fifty pounds again for it. Fifty pounds the diamond ring. Thirty. Thirty I'm bid. Any advance on Thirty two, thirty five, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty, fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight. Any advance on fifty eight pound? Any advance on fifty eight pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at fifty eight pound. Number thirty eight, fifty eight pounds. And number twenty nine, an eternity ring. A nine carat eternity ring again. A little stone set eternity ring. Well a little dress ring this time. ten pounds for it, a little stone set eternity ring. Ten. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds the lot? Are you all finished now at ten? It's going in Eleven I'm bid. Twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. Any advance on sixteen pounds the lot. At sixteen pounds. Number four, sixteen pounds. And number thirty, a pair of eighteen carat gold earrings. There you are this pair of er heavy eighteen carat gold earrings, there you are, the pendant earrings. We'll have them there now, a good pair of earrings. have them there. Fifty pounds for them. Fifty pounds for a pair of earrings, must be worth that in gold. No? Thirty then. Thirty I'm bid. Any advance on thirty pounds for the earrings? Any advance on Thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty pounds, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. Any Seventy pounds. Any advance on se Seventy two, seventy five, seventy eight, eight pounds. The lady's bid now to eighty pound. Any advance on Eighty two, eighty five, eighty eight, ninety pounds. Any advance on ninety? The lady again at ninety poun Ninety two, ninety five. Any advance on ninety five. The lady bidding on the left now at ninety five pound. Any advance at ninety five pounds the lot. Are you all finished now? It's going in at ninety five pounds. Number forty one, ninety five pounds. And on to number thirty one, a sapphire and diamond ring again. There you are There you are sapphire diamond cluster ring. have it here again now, twenty pounds again for the small wee dress ring. Small sapphire diamond cluster dress ring. ten again for it then. Should be worth ten. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on Twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two. Any advance on twenty two? The gentleman here in the front now, twenty two. Twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. Any advance on thirty two? The gentleman sitting here in front of me now at thirty two pounds. Any advance on thirty two pounds for the lot? Number eighty two, thirty two pounds. Number thirty two, three nine carat gold rings. nine carat er rings again this time. There you are for the for the ring. A three colour gold ring and a little coin set ring, there you are, for three of them. Fairly heavy rings. forty pounds for three rings. Forty pounds for three of them. Well twenty pounds to start them then. Twenty I'm bid. Any ad Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds. Any advance on fifty pound? Any advance on fifty pounds the lot? No? Are you all finished now? They're going in at fifty pounds the lot, at fifty pounds. Number fifty seven, fifty pounds. And number thirty three we're on to. Number thirty three, three nine carat rings again this time. Including a heavy wedding ring, a claddagh ring, and a little ring as well. There you are, for three rings again fifty pounds again for the three. Well thirty pounds again to start them then. Thirty, thirty I'm bid, any advance on thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds. Any advance on fifty pounds? any advance on fifty pounds? Alright Are you all finished now, they're going in at fifty pound. Fifty seven, fifty pounds. Lot number thirty four, a nine carat gate bracelet again. There you are a little four bar gate bracelet. A nice little gate bracelet again this time. Twenty pounds again for this one, with its padlock. Ten again to start it then. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pound? Any advance on twelve? Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen, twenty pounds, twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four? The gentleman here in the front had it at twenty four. Any advance on twenty four pounds the lot? Are you all finished now at twenty four pounds. One oh two, twenty four pounds. Lot number ninet er thirty five. Lot thirty five, there you are, set ring. And it's morning ring. have it again now, ten pounds again for it. Nice little ring. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at ten pounds for it. Are you all finished now? Ten, it's away, too late. Ten pounds and it's er number four. Lot thirty six, a diamond ring again. There you are diamond three stone crossover ring. A nice diamond three stone crossover ring. nice modern ring. Two hundred pounds for it diamond ring. One hundred pounds again to start it I'm bid. Any advance on one hundred pounds the lot? One five, one ten, one fifteen, one twenty, twenty five, one thirty. Any advance on one hundred and thirty? One thirty five, one forty. Any advance on one hundred and forty pounds for it? Are you all finished now? It's going at one hundred and forty pounds the lot, at one hundred and forty pounds. Forty one, one hundred and forty pounds. And lot number thirty seven, a nine carat gold wedding ring. A nice engraved nine carat wedding ring this time. There you are, ten pounds again to start it. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pound? El eleven I'm bid then. Twelve, thirteen. Any advance on thirteen. thirteen pound. Any advance on thirteen pounds for the wedding ring?. Are you all finished now? Thirteen pounds. Number forty one, thirteen pounds. And lot number thirty eight, well three nine carat charms. Three nine carat gold charms, as we have them there now. For the three of them as we have them then. There you are, thirty pounds again for the three. Thirty pounds for them. Ten again to start them. Ten. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on twelve? Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty five. Any advance on twenty Twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight. The gentleman sat up here on my right now, thirty eight pound. Any advance on thirty eight? Are you all finished then at thirty eight pounds? Number four. Number thirty nine, a gold three stone ring again. There you are a little three stone ring as we have it again now. There you are a little diamond three stone ring. A nice little crossover ring, as we have it again. Thirty pounds for it. modern ring. Thirty pounds again for the lot. Ten again to start it then. Ten pounds for it. Should be worth ten pounds for it. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on twelve? Fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four? Gentleman there on my right now, twenty four pound. Any advance on twenty four pounds the lot. twenty four pounds. Number four, twenty four pounds. Number forty, a sapphire and diamond ring. There you are, this little sapphire, diamond cluster ring, again this time. There you are twenty pound again for the little dress ring. Twenty again. Ten again to start it then. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? Eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. Any advance on seventeen? A gentleman near the front this time at seventeen pound. Any advance on seventeen pounds the lot? At seventeen pounds. Eighteen, new bidder, nineteen, twenty pounds, twenty one. Any advance on twenty one pound. A gentleman here in the front of me now, twenty one pounds. Twenty one pounds. One oh two, twenty one pounds. Number forty one, there you are, this ruby diamond ring they say. There you are, a little ruby diamond boat shaped ring. A nice little er antiques style ring. Ah there you are, as we have it again now. And I'm bid er forty two,. Any advance on forty two pounds, the little boat shaped ring? And advance on forty two pounds? No? are you all finished now? It's going in at forty two pounds the lot. At forty two pounds. Buyer s er seventy two, forty two pounds. And lot number forty two, this er gold bracelet watch. ladies er bracelet watch again this time. A nice nine carat wristwatch with a nine carat bracelet. Well there you are. A lot again. Thirty pounds for it. The bracelet watch. Twenty. Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pounds for it? And advance on twenty pounds for the watch? Any advance on twenty? Twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four then? Twenty six, er twenty eight. Any Thirty pounds. And ad The gentleman up here on the right had thirty pound. Any advance on thirty pounds for the watch? Are you all finished at thirty pounds for it? At thirty pounds? Number one oh one, thirty pounds. Number forty three, a crystal necklace. Now crystal necklace, a nice crystal three row row necklace this time. There you are, ten pounds for it, the crystal necklace. Ten pounds for it, it's a nice crystal necklace. Ten pounds, should be worth ten. Well five again to start it then. Five pounds the lot. Five I'm bid. Any advance on five pounds for the crystal necklace. Are you all finished now? Five going in at five. And it's buyer number thirty eight, five pounds. Lot forty four, a nine carat gold ring. There you are,... there you are, this nine carat gold ring this time. There you are this is the sovereign side, but there's no sovereigns in it. It's a nine carat dress ring. As we have it there again now. Thirty pounds for it. Nine carat ring. Twenty again to start it then. Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pound? A gentleman there on my right now, twenty pound. Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. Any advance on thirty two p Thirty four, thirty six. Any advance on thirty six? Thirty eight I'm bid. Forty pounds. A gentleman over on my right now, at forty pound. Any advance on forty pounds for the ring? Are you all finished now, it's going in at forty pounds the lot. Number four, forty pounds. And lot number forty five, a seven bar bracelet this time. A good heavy seven bar bracelet with a padlock. Looks a nice gold bracelet. A nice gold seven bar bracelet. Fifty pounds again to start it. Fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty pounds. A gentleman fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty pounds, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy pounds. It's a gentleman up here on my right now at seven Seventy two, seventy five, seventy eight, eighty pounds, eighty two, eighty five, eighty eight, ninety pounds, ninety two, ninety five, ninety eight, one hundred pounds, one hundred and five, one ten. Any advance on one hundred and ten pound? One hundred ad fifteen. Any advance on one hundred and fifteen? Gentleman there on my left. Any advance on one hundred and fifteen pounds for the bracelet there. Are you all finished now at one hundred and fifteen pounds. And the number is seventy seven. One hundred and fifteen pounds. Number forty six, a diamond sapphire ring again this time, there you are a little diamond sapphire dress ring again, twenty pounds again for this one. Twenty pounds again, ten again to start it then. Ten pound. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten? Eleven I'm bid. Twelve, thirteen, fourteen. Any advance on fourteen? on my left now, fourteen pound. Any ad Fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. Any advance on twenty? twenty pound. Any advance on twenty pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? Twenty pounds. Number ninety one, twenty pounds. Forty seven a a wedding ring again. A nice heavy plain gold wedding ring. Ah it's a nice heavy nine carat plain gold wedding as we have it again. Twenty pounds for it. Nice modern plain ring. Ten again then. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten? Eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds, twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. A gentleman up here on my right twenty three pound. Any advance on twenty three pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? Twenty three pounds. Number four, twenty three pounds. Number forty eight, well two nine carat gold rings again. There we are the two dress rings. Little dress rings as we have them there now. Twenty pounds for the two. Ten pounds for them then. little dress rings. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? Eleven I'm bid. Twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? Gentle now nineteen, new bidder, twenty pounds, twenty one, twenty two. Any advance on twenty two? There's a gentleman here at the back now, twenty two pounds. Any advance on twenty two pounds for the lot. Number four, twenty two pounds. And lot number forty nine, a nine carat single stone ring. Er there you are it's just a little dress ring, just a little stone set dress ring, It's a nice little modern ring though. There you are, ten pounds for it. It's a little modern dress ring. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pound? A gentleman seated again at ten pound. Any advance on ten pound for the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at ten pounds. Too late.. Ten pounds and it's number four. And lot number fifty, a nine carat eternity ring. This nine carat stone set eternity ring. A eternity ring. Stone set. Ten pounds again for this one. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? Yeah. Eleven I'm bid then. Twelve. reserved for sale. Thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. Any advance on twenty pounds the lot? Are you all finished now at twenty pounds? Number four twenty pounds. And lot number fifty one, three nine carat charms again. There you are, three nine carat charms as we have them there now. The three charms. There you are, the lot again. Twenty pounds again for the lot. Twenty I'm bid this time, any advance on twenty pound? Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six. Any advance on twenty six? at twenty six pound. Any advance on twenty six pound? Alright, all finished now? Twenty six pound. And the buyer sixty three, twenty six pounds. And lot number fifty two, two rings again. There you are the two little stone set er one's a stone set dress ring, and the other gold er dress ring. The two little rings again as we have them there. Ten pounds again for the two. Ten I'm bid. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pound. Gentleman on my right again Eleven I'm bid then. Twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. Any advance on sixteen pounds for the two. Are you all finished now at sixteen pounds? Number four sixteen pounds. Any number fifty three, the belcher chain. Well there you are, it's a gold belcher chain on a nice little gold belcher chain as we have it there. Twenty pounds for it. It's a nice little belcher chain. Ten again to start it then. Ten pound. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds, a little gold neck chain. Eleven I'm bid. Twelve, thirteen. There's a gentleman again at thirteen pounds. Any advance on thirteen pounds, the lot. At thirteen pounds. Number four, thirteen pounds. And lot number fifty four, another chain. A serpentine chain this time. Nice gold chain ten again to start it. Ten. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds the lot? Eleven I'm bid. Twelve, thirteen. It's the gentleman again at thirteen pound. Are you all finished then at thirteen pound? Well thirteen pounds. Number four, thirteen pounds. And lot number fifty five, a stone set bracelet. Well there you are, this eighteen carat they say it is, eighteen carat stone set bracelet. So that's a nice bracelet, as we have it here again now. One hundred pounds for it. Eighteen carat stone set bracelet. Fifty again to start it. Fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty pounds? Fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eight pounds, eighty five. Any advance on eighty five pound? Any advance on eighty five pound. Alright are you all finished now at eighty five pounds. Number forty three, eighty five pounds. And number fifty six, a diamond [cough] a diamond set initial pendant. we are a little diamond in it. The S p the initial S with a little diamond set in it. Well twenty pounds for it, the little initial pendant. Twenty pounds the lot. Ten again for it then. Should be worth Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds the lot? Any advance on ten. Eleven I'm bid. Twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. Any Nineteen, twenty pounds, twenty one, twenty two. Any advance on twenty two pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at twenty two pounds the lot. Twenty two pounds. Twenty seven, twenty two pounds. And number er fifty seven. We have er two gold charms, two eighteen carat gold charms. There you are the little flexible fish and a star charm. There you are, the two together as we have them again. Thirty pounds for the two. Twenty. Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty two? Twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. Any advance on thirty two pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? They're going in at thirty two pounds the lot. Thirty two pounds. Buyer forty one, thirty two pounds. Number fifty eight, a diamond set er. Well there you are it's a little er diamond set pendant this time. A ten gram pendant. There you are as we have it again. Fifty pounds for it, a little pendant, with a diamond inset. Thirty again to start it then. Thirty I'm bid. Any advance on thirty pounds the lot, are you all finished now at thirty? Thirty two in front of me. Thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight, forty pounds, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five, fifty. There's a gentleman here in the front again, gentleman seated here in the front fifty five for them. Any advance on fifty five for them? Are you all finished now. Going in at fifty five pounds. And the number was? [speaker001:] Ninety eight. [speaker002:] Eighty eight. [speaker001:] Ninety eight. [speaker002:] Ninety eight. Number ninety eight. And number fifty nine, a little er gold er ruby diamond ring they say it is. A little modern dress ring. Rubies and diamonds. Well there you are for the as we have it again now. Fifty pound again for it. A nice little diamond and ruby dress ring. Fifty pounds the lot. Thirty again to start it then. Thirty pounds. thirty. want it. Twenty I'm bid. Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two. Any advance on thirty two pound? Any advance on thirty two pound for the dress ring? Are you all finished now? It's going in at thirty two pounds. Buyer thirty eight, thirty two pounds. And lot number sixty, miscellaneous jewellery again. A few pieces miscellaneous jewellery. The enamel bar brooch, a pair of earrings. Well there you are, for the jewellery as we have it again. The bar brooch and the pair of earrings. five pounds the lot. Nice pair of earrings there, should be worth five pounds on their own. pounds the lot. Three. Three I'm bid. Any advance on three pound? Four I'm bid. Five, six, seven. Any advance on seven? Gentleman here on my left now seven pound. Any advance on seven pounds the lot? At seven pound. Number one oh six, seven pounds. Number sixty one, there you are, a little three stone ring again this time. There you are a three stone diamond ring again. There you are, fifty pounds again to start it. Thirty. Thirty I'm bid for it. Any advance on thirty pounds? Thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds. Any advance on forty? Forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five. Any advance on fifty five? Any advance on fifty five pounds a diamond ring. Are you all finished now at fifty five pounds the lot. Buyer seventy two, fifty five pounds. Lot number sixty two, another diamond ring again, this time. A two stone ring with a diamond set shoulder. There you are, fifty pound again to start this one. I'm bid this time. Any advance on fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight. Any advance on fifty pounds for this one now? Any advance on fifty pounds the lot? Fifty eight pounds, seventy two, fifty eight pounds. Number sixty three,we er three three bracelets. Well there you are, three fine nine carat gold bracelets. Well there you are as we have them there now. There you are, twenty pounds for three of them. Ten again then for three nine carat bracelets. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds the lot? Eleven I'm bid. Any advance on eleven. The gentleman here, twelve. Thirteen. The gentleman here on my left now thirteen pound. Any advance on thirteen pounds the three. All finished now? They're going in at thirteen pounds. One oh two, thirteen pounds. Number sixty four, a diamond ring again. A seven stone diamond ring. A eternity ring again this time. A nice er eternity ring. Well it's a nice ring this time. There you are, one hundred pounds for this one. Well fifty pounds. Fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty pounds? Fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy pounds. Any advanc Seventy five, eighty pound, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, one hundred pound, one five. Any advance on one hundred and five pounds, the eternity ring. Any advance on one hundred and five pounds the lot? A hundred and five pounds. And it's buyer fifty seven, one hundred ad five pounds. And on to sixty five. There you are for this er gent's singles stone diamond ring this time. There you are for the gent's ring this time. A nice gent's single stone diamond ring. Fifty pounds for it. For the gent's single stone diamond ring. Fifty pounds again for the lot. Thirty pounds to start it. Thirty. Thirty I'm bid. Any advance on thirty pound? Any advance on thirty? Thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty pounds. Any advance on forty pound. lady, forty two, forty five, forty eight, fifty pounds, fifty two, fifty five. A lady now at fifty five. Any advance on fifty five pounds the lot? All finished now? It's going in at fifty five pounds the lot. Forty one, fifty five pounds. Number sixty six, a diamond and sapphire ring again. Here you are, a diamond sapphire cluster ring. It's a nice diamond sapphire cluster this time. Well there you are, forty pounds for this one. Well twenty pound again to start it. Twenty I'm bid, any advance on twenty pound right now, twenty pound. Any advance on twenty two? Twenty five, twenty eight, thirty pounds. The up here, thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight. Any advance on thirty eight? Any advance on thirty eight? forty pounds, forty two. Any advance on forty two? forty two pound. Any advance on forty two pounds the lot, at forty two pounds. Sixty sixty three, forty two pounds. Number sixty seven, well three nine carat charms again. Well there you are,. Well there you are the lot again. Twenty pounds for three charms or pendants. Twenty pounds for three gold pendants. Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pounds? Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four, thirty six, thirty eight. Any advance on thirty eight. Gentleman here on my left now thirty eight pound. Any advance on thirty eight pounds the lot? Number one oh six, thirty eight pounds. Number sixty eight, a nine carat diamond and sapphire ring again. There you are, a diamond sapphire cluster ring again this time. There you are, it's a nice diamond sapphire cluster ring. And I'm bid seventy two. Any advance on seventy two pounds the lot? Any advance on seventy two? Seventy four, seventy six, seventy eight. Any advance on seventy eight? Are you all finished then at seventy pound? Any advance on seventy eight pound the lot? Seventy eight pound. Buyer seventy two, seventy eight pounds. And on to lot number sixty nine, there you to this er ring again. A nice diamond set ring again this time. As we have it again. Ah it's a nice little diamond ring, one hundred pounds again for this one. Well fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty five? Sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty five, ninety pounds, ninety five, one hundred pounds, one five, one ten, one fifteen. Any advance on one hundred and fifteen pound for it? Are you all finished now? It's going in at one hundred and fifteen pounds the lot. Number seventy two, one hundred and fifteen pounds. And lot number seventy, we have er a gold necklace and bracelet. Well here you are, the bright cut necklace and bracelet this time. It's a nice modern n bright cut necklace and bracelet. There you are thirty pounds, the two pieces together. Thirty pounds for them. Well twenty to start them then. They should be worth twenty. Nobody want them at twenty pound? Twenty I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pound? The gent sitting on my right now, twenty two. Twenty four. Any advance on twenty four? Twenty six. Any advance on twenty six? Twenty eight, thirty pounds. Any advance on thirty pounds? Any advance on thirty pounds the lot. Are you all finished now? They're going in at thirty pounds the lot. At thirty pounds. Number forty three, thirty pounds. Number seventy one, a cluster ring, a stone set cluster ring this time. Well a nice showy dress ring. Twenty pounds for it. A cluster dress ring. Ten again I'm bid, any advance on ten pound? twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six. Any advance on twenty six pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at twenty six pounds the lot. Twenty six pounds. Number four, twenty six pounds. And lot number seventy two, a nine carat gold mandolin pendant. Well there you are a stone set, garnet set mandolin pendant. There's a nice pendant. Nine heavy pendant. There you are, thirty pounds for it. A mandolin pendant. Thirty. Twenty then I'm bid. Any advance on twenty pound The gent sitting on my right now, twenty pounds. Any advance on twenty pounds the lot? You're all finished now? Twe Twenty two, twenty four, twenty six, twenty eight, thirty pounds, thirty two, thirty four. The lady's bid now thirty four pound. Any advance on thirty four pound the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at thirty four pound. Ninety five, thirty four pounds. And number seventy three, a diamond ring again. gent's er diamond ring again this time. The diamond set signet ring as we have it there. Four stone diamond ring. as we have it again now, two hundred pounds for it. One hundred pounds again I'm bid. Any advance on one hundred pounds? One ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty. Any advance on one hundred and sixty pounds for is. Are you all finished now? One hundred and sixty pounds the lot. One hundred and sixty pounds. And it's number forty one, one hundred and sixty pounds. And number seventy four, a single stone diamond ring. There you are, a little single stone ring this time, as we have it again. There you are. Fifty pound again to start it. Thirty I'm bid. Thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty, forty two, forty five. Any advance on forty five pounds for the little single stone ring? Are you all finished now? Forty five pounds the lot. Forty five pounds. Buyer seventy two, forty five pounds. And lot number seventy five, a a nine carat gold sapphire ring again. There you are it's a little diamond sapphire dress ring again this time. A nice little diamond sapphire dress ring. There you go Thirty pound for this one. Well ten again to start it then. Ten pounds for the ring. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten? Twelve, fourteen. Any adv Sixteen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? Twenty pounds, twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four pound. now twenty four pound. Any advance on twenty four pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at twenty four pound. And it is number ninety one, twenty four pounds. Number seventy six, well two nine carat rings again. Two nine carat dress rings this time. A little jet set ring and a stone set dress ring. For the two together, twenty pounds again for the two. Two little dress rings. Should be worth twenty. Well ten again for them then. Ten pounds for two rings. Ten I'm bid. Twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? Twenty pounds I'm bid. Twenty two, twenty four. Any advance on twenty four? The gentleman down here on my left now, twenty four. The gentleman here on my left. Are you all finished now? Twenty four pounds the lot. Twenty four pounds. And it's one oh six, twenty four pounds. Number seventy seven, a gold identity bracelet. Well a small gold identity bracelet this time. A nice little I D bracelet. Ten pounds for it. A little I D bracelet. bracelet. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds the lot? Are you all finished then? Are you going in at ten pounds and away. And it's number four, ten pounds. And number seventy eight, a diamond cluster ring. Well there you are a nice little diamond cluster ring, multi-stone cluster as we have it again now. There you are, one hundred pounds again I'm bid for it. Any advance on one hundred? One ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty. Any advance on one hundred and sixty pound? Any advance on one hundred and sixty pounds the lot? Are you all finished now, one hundred and sixty pounds. And it's number seventy two, one hundred and sixty. And lot number seventy nine, a buckle ring. A nice gold buckle ring this time. There you are, a gent's gold buckle ring, twenty pounds for it. gold buckle ring. Ten again. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? Eleven I'm bid. Then twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. Any advance on eighteen? A gent bid at the back at eighteen pound? Any advance on eighteen pound for the lot? At eighteen pound. Number four, eighteen pounds. Number eighty, an ingot. Well there you are, this gold ingot, well it's a gold Probably one ounce ingot I would imagine. There you are, for this gold A nice nine carat gold er ingot pendant as we have it again. One hundred pounds for it. Well fifty pounds to start it then. I'm bid fifty. Any advance on fifty pounds? Fifty two, fifty five, fifty eight, sixty pounds, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. Seventy pounds, seventy two, seventy five, seventy eight, eighty pounds, eighty two, eighty five, eighty eight, ninety pounds, ninety two, ninety five, ninety eight. Any advance on ninety eight pounds for the pendant. Are you all finished now? It's going in at ninety eight pounds the lot. All done? Ninety eight pounds. And it's buyer sixty three, ninety eight pounds. Lot number one, an eighteen carat er ring again this time. There you are, they say it's a ruby diamond ring, well it's a nice Victorian style ring. There's two of the small diamonds missing though, but there you are, we sell it as we have it there. Fifty pounds again for it. Fifty pounds again for a little diamond boat shaped ring. T Twenty. Twenty I'm bid. Twenty two, twenty five, twenty eight, a lady, thirty, thirty two, thirty five, thirty eight, forty, forty two. Any advance on forty two? Any advance on forty two pounds for the ring? All finished now? Forty two pounds for the lot. Buyer sixty three, forty two pounds. And lot number eighty two, a diamond cluster. Well there you are, it's this little diamond cluster ring this time. Ah it's a nice little star shaped cluster ring as we have it again. Thirty pounds for it. A nice little diamond start shaped cluster ring. Thirty pounds again to start it. Thirty I'm bid. Any advance on thirty pounds the lot? Are you all finished? It's going in at thirty pounds the lot. Are you all finished now? It's going in at thirty pound. It's away, too late, thirty pounds. And number four. Number eighty three a nine carat gold diamond sapphire ring. There you are a little diamond sapphire ring this time. little sapphire there. There you are a diamond sapphire ring. Forty pounds again for this one. Forty I'm bid this time. Forty two, forty five. Any advance on forty five? Any advance on forty five pounds the ring. Are you all finished now? It's going at forty five pounds the lot. Forty five pounds. Number forty three, forty five pounds. And lot number eighty four, two stone set rings again. Two stone set dress rings er a cluster ring and a eternity ring. together. Twenty pound again for the two dress rings. Twenty pounds for the two. Ten again for them then. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? Eleven I'm bid., Twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty pounds. Any advance on twenty pound? A gent there at the back now twenty pound. Any advance on twenty p Twenty one then. Any advance on twenty one? The bid's down here in front of me now at twenty one pound. Any advance on twenty one pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? Twenty one pounds. Ninety eight, twenty one pounds. And lot number eighty five, There you are, this diamond eternity ring again this time. Well it's a four stone ring it is. There you are, four in a straight, nice little diamond ring again this time. Fifty pounds again I'm bid for it. Any advance on fifty five? Sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety. Any advance on ninety pounds, the diamond ring. Are you all finished now at ninety pounds the lot? Are you all finished now. It's going in at ninety pounds the lot. Ninety pounds. Number seventy two, ninety pounds. Number eighty six, er some assorted jewellery again. There you are chains again this time. N neck chain and bracelets. Well there you are, two bracelets and a jet neck chain. gold items again. Ten pounds again to start them. Ten pounds Any advance on ten pounds. The gent Eleven I'm bid then. Any advance on eleven? Twelve, thirteen. Any advance on thirteen? The lady on my left now at thirteen pound. Any advance on thir Fourteen fi Well there's a gentleman here in the front at fourteen. Fifteen I'm bid. Any advance on fifteen? Sixteen. There's a gentleman here beside me now at sixteen pound. Any advance on sixteen pound? Alright. Are you all finished now. It's going in at sixteen pounds. Ninety eight, sixteen pounds. And lot number eighty seven, a necklace again. A gold necklace again this time. There you are. Well that's a nice heavy gold necklace. As we have it there. There you are, gold necklace again as we have it there now. There you are, one hundred pounds for it, the gold necklace. Well fifty pounds again to start it. Fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty pounds for it? Fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy pounds, seventy five, eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety. Any advance on ninety pound? Any advance on Ninety five I'm bid. One hundred pounds, one five. Any advance on one hundred and five pound? Any advance on one hundred and five pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? One hundred and five pounds. Seventy two, one hundred and five pounds. And lot number eighty eight, a diamond eternity ring again. There you are a... eternity and a little cluster ring and a little eternity ring. There you are, the two little rings together now. One's little diamonds and sapphires. Er eternity ring and a little diamond cluster ring. Well the two rings again as we have them there now. Thirty pounds for the two this time. Thirty pounds. Well ten again for them then. Ten I'm bid. Any advance on ten pounds? Twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty two, twenty four, twenty six. Any advance on twenty six? Twenty eight. The gent's bid in the bottom wall now twenty eight pound. Any advance on twenty eight pounds the lot. Are you all finished now. They're going in twenty eight pounds the two. Twenty eight pounds. And it's number ninety one, twenty eight pounds. Number eighty nine, a cluster ring again. There you are, sort of er oblong shape cluster ring. Well it's a diamond cluster ring again this time. One hundred pounds again I'm bid for it. Any advance on one hundred pounds? One five, one ten, one fifteen, one twenty, twenty five, one thirty, thirty five, one forty. An One forty five, one fifty. Any advance on one hundred and fifty pound? Any advance on one hundred and fifty pounds for the diamond ring. Are you all finished now at one hundred and fifty pounds the lot. And it's number seventy two, one hundred and fifty pounds. And number ninety, a diamond sapphire ring. Well it's a nice diamond sapphire cluster ring this time. There you are as we have it again. Fifty pounds again to start it. Fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty two? Fifty five, fifty eight, sixty, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. Any advance on sixty eight pound? And advance on sixty eight pounds the lot. Are you all finished now it's going in at sixty eight pound. And it's m buyer forty one this time, sixty eight pounds. And lot number ninety one, a diamond ring again. There you are, the diamond solitaire ring, set in a white gold. Well a little diamond ring as we have it again now. Fifty pounds again to start it. Fifty I'm bid. Any advance on fifty pounds the lot? Any advance on fifty five? Sixty, sixty five, seventy pounds, seventy five. Any advance on seventy five pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at seventy five pounds the lot. Seventy five pounds. Number sixty three, seventy five pounds. And lot number ninety two, the diamond five stone. There you are, the diamond five stone ring again. A nice diamond ring this time. There you are. And I'm bid one hundred and sixty this time. Any advance on one sixty? One seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred. Any advance on two ten? Two twenty, two twenty, two thirty, two forty. Any advance on two hundred and forty pound. Any advance on two hundred and forty pounds for the diamond ring. Are you all finished now, it's going in at two hundred and forty pounds the lot at two hundred and forty pound. And it was number fifty seven, two hundred and forty pounds. And lot number ninety three, a single stone diamond ring. Well there you are little single stone diamond ring again. Fifty pounds again to start it. Fifty I'm bid. Fifty five, sixty, sixty five. Any advance on sixty five pounds the lot? Are you all finished now? It's going in at sixty five pounds the lot. Sixty three. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] see if I can get this in focus for you.... Can everyone see that?... Okay? First of all, who are we? [cough] We are the largest independent manufacturer of high speed diesel engines. And the horsepower range we work from is from seventy six, to two thousand horsepower. And that is in fact from four cylinder to twenty four cylinder engines. Er you'll see further on in the presentation, the product we produce at, which is the ten litre and the fourteen litre engine. And this actually goes down to about a hundred and eighty horsepower in some applications. And in fact we're now approaching the five hundred horsepower in the fourteen litre. This is Incorporated Internationally. Sales in nineteen ninety one was three point four billion dollars, and in fact the figures for nineteen ninety two are just published in May of this year, is four point seven billion dollars. We produce annually, two hundred and eight thousand engines, in fact that's now approaching two hundred and fifty thousand engines. We employ twenty three thousand people worldwide. Our annual research and development exceeds two hundred million dollars.... in the U K consists of Engine Company Limited, and there are three manufacturing sites that manufacture diesel engines. We've got which I'll go on to expand in a minute about. We've got another plant at Darlington that produces a smaller series of engines. Erm eighty to a hundred and forty horsepower. And a plant at Daventry down in the Midlands that does the big ones, two thousand horsepower. A few years ago we bought a company called who manufacture all the filters that we use. Erm oil filters, air filters etcetera. We actually bought them over about seven or eight years ago. We now own them. located at, actually reconditions engines which are ten or fifteen years old. There's also a market there for people who can't afford to buy new product, and obviously still the engine's still got life in it. So with reconditioning, and new pistons and new liners etcetera, you get another ten years out of the engine. So you've probably seen them if you've ever been up past. On the motorway heading for. They're on the right hand side., again located in the Midlands down at Wellingborough. Are actually our distributer. Who go out in the field and do field service support for our customers. were a separate independent company up till about three years ago, who produced nothing but turbochargers. Erm turbocharging in diesel engines really came on about ten years ago. It's fairly new. Er although most people think it's been there for a long time, it hasn't. Turbocharging really only took off about ten years ago. This was a private company set up to produce turbochargers, which again, because we were one of their biggest customers, we eventually became partners and then bought them over. is a n a new company to us. Er I'll go on to explain in the product range one of their new products we're introducing this year. Is an electronic engine. And this company U K has developed the new control systems for it. Er and Holdings I'm sorry I know very little about. I know they remanufacture components for us, but I know very little about them. As far the United Kingdom's concerned, nineteen ninety one almost five hundred million pound sterling turnover. Producing thirty seven thousand engines. With almost five thousand employees. And as at the end of nineteen ninety one, we have almost two hundred million investment in the U K. The first plant that opened outside the main plant in Columbus, was at. And it opened in nineteen fifty six. Er there's various reasons why it was located at. One of the main ones being which we know now as. But er were one of our customers, buying engines from our mother company in the States. Er the company was also at that time, looking to expand anyway into Europe. Erm and I think Margaret had quite a lot to do with it being located at as well. So for various reasons, we actually found ourselves at. Nineteen fifty six. The plant itself erm now worth thirty million pounds. There was a seventeen million pound extension built in nineteen Started in nineteen eighty one, finished nineteen eighty five. We currently employ just over six hundred people. Although when I joined the company fifteen years ago, we had only fifteen hundred people. Er six hundred and fifty thousand square feet. Almost, and as I say we do fourteen litre and ten litre engines. The ten litre engine is actually a metric engine. Er it was introduced in nineteen eighty three. Brand new engine, introduced in nineteen eighty three, and we decided at that time to go metric. Er a hundred and eighty to now we've gone up to about three seventy horsepower with turbocharger. And in some cases we have a double char tur turbocharger. There's a photograph of the product. Erm this here's the turbocharger arrangement. The fourteen litre engine is an old imperial engine. And when I say old, that was designed and developed in nineteen thirty five in the States. The basic engine has not changed at all. Er sure there have been some improvements in the materials that we use. And that's just material technology advancing. But the basic engine design has not changed. On both products, what we are now going to is an electronic engine. We currently have a pressure regulated fuel injection system, developed by. [cough] own patented design. What we're now going to is electronic fuel injection. It gives a much better fuel economy. And again, that's a photograph of the fourteen litre engine. Our main markets. well you can see from that, the main markets are actually the world. We are very heavily into South Korea and China at the moment. Erm about ten percent of the product goes to Africa and Australia. Again, we're getting heavily into the Middle East. And that's mostly for generator sets and pumping station equipment. Er the European Market is mostly either on or off highway. There are only really two main markets in Europe and that's either the trucks or the excavators and the diggers off highway applications. Er a typical example of an application, an E R F thirty eight tonne tractor unit. Erm that one in actual fact has a ten litre pardon me engine in it. E R F currently produce about six trucks per day, and they're all powered. So every time you pass an E R F on the motorway or it passes you, it's one of our engines from that's powering it. Er a company called in Finland, who are the biggest truck manufacturer in Finland. Er and it's mostly fairly heavy lorries that they produce for as you can see, forestry work. Erm I think that's their principal industry in Finland is the forest. Again we are the the sole supplier to them. These are various other applications. You'll recognize this one here. This is the local Sprinter class rail car er diesel rail car which runs on our local railway network. They are all powered by, throughout the U K. Er something like four hundred and seventy five of these units running, all powered. These are standby generator sets. [cough] For all sorts of applications. Hospitals, pumping stations whatever. Off highway applications in terms of diggers, erm and power equipment. And we do some marine not a lot of marine erm For some strange reason, our design of engine does not lend itself too well to marine applications. Er we there's a lot of cast iron and steel in our engine and marine engines don't like that, they prefer brass.. Er typical example of our technical investment, [cough] Nineteen ninety one, we were round about a hundred and fifty million. This year, the plans for nineteen ninety three, ninety four are two hundred and fifty million. Reinvestment in er in new equipment and research and engineering development. An aerial view of the plant. [cough] When we came here in nineteen fifty six, this was the original building. And in fact it was an old woollen mill called the. From nineteen eighty one to eighty seven, we expanded into this. Erm it's a simple flow system, raw material comes in at one end and flows through the plant, through the machining areas, through the assembly, and the new product, the finished product comes out the end. The other building you see in the top left here is the Hilton. That's the present. Er a typical view down the assembly track or the beginning of the assembly track. You can see the engine block. Very little built on to it at that stage. And the main things that we point out there are we have a nice natural flow system. We have material feeding in from each particular station at the side. operator doesn't have a lot of movement, minimum movement. Erm there are twelve stations in that particular piece of assembly track. The track is continuously moving, and it pulses every ten point six minutes. So every ten point six minutes, another engine comes off the end. Er a view of part of the machine shop. Just showing the general layout and what we are trying to do in terms of housekeeping and cleanliness. Machine shops and engineering works tend to be regarded as very dirty filthy places. And I'm afraid the nineteen nineties, that's not the attitude we want to adopt. Er we pride ourselves on our housekeeping, it's a selling factor for us, and we have customers come round and look at the plant and they always commend us quite highly on our housekeeping. Again another general view of a machine shop. You can just imagine, this place is cutting cast iron and metal all day, every day. So it looks quite good. Er the finishing end of the assembly track, and you can see the engine is almost in a completed state. Sixteen stations on this piece of piece of track. Again pulsing at ten point six minutes. So again, a completed engine every ten minutes.... And just a wee Some of the achievements we've had in the last ten years. Eight occasions, we've won the Queen's award to industry. So we can't be doing too badly. Any questions gentlemen or [speaker002:] Yes. Yo you mentioned the fact that you had increased your capacity, but decreased your your er employee [A. Ritchie:] Yes. [speaker002:] Erm in so that it's our fault really that we can't give work to our our er people. Is there no way you can adopt a a a more way to to utilize the men rather than. [A. Ritchie:] There are There are various ways to that. Obviously it's quite an emotive subject when [cough] as you say you're reducing putting people out the door. Putting people out of work. The counter argument to that is, if you don't become more efficient, then you will lose the business anyway. And your competitor will take over. And all your people are out the door. So it's a cleft stick. And it's difficult, very difficult to strike the balance. Erm, what we have tried to do at, there are You've probably seen or heard in the last five or six years, the influence of Japanese technology. And you can't transpose totally Japanese technology into the Western hemisphere, but they have some good ideas. Er and and you have to pick the ideas that you think can apply to to your application. And we've adopted two or three of these. One is what they call, cising or continuous improvement. And as you continuously improve an area, the people that that frees up, the additional labour, go on to do additional improvement work. So you can still support those people, and still get the benefit. So you're still reducing the cost of the product all the time, er and you can still retain the people. Now there's obviously a saturation level. Where you have more people that what you have improvement work for them to do. Erm how far down the road that is, we don't know. But we've been honest with our people, we have not paid anyone off, in the fifteen years I've been at, that didn't want to go. It's all been voluntary redundancy or voluntary termination. But yes it's a very very difficult situation. It's survival on the one hand against moral issues on the other hand. Difficult. [speaker004:] manufacturing cars you know, and it's all these robots they're doing all the work. Could the robots er take over er diesel engineering? Is it not a possibility? [A. Ritchie:] Well there are some other slides I could have got which We have a conrod line which manufactures the conrod, right? And you can imagine the conrod in your car is about this size. Four of them in your One in each cylinder, goes up and down. The one in the diesel engines like this, you can hardly lift it. We have a conrod line that manufactures them. And in fact we manufacture conrods for other plants in the corporation. Er the cost is fourteen million pounds for that machining unit for conrods. And it's six cells of about five or six machines in each cell. And they are fed by a robot. Traditionally we had something like eight five, eighty seven people working in conrod manufacture, we now have fourteen operators, supported by six technicians. And the robots are doing that. So yes, we took on board robotic technology if you like, to reduce costs. In terms of engine assembly, no. Er that will always be done by hand. There are alw there are always applications that you cannot robotize. Erm and we pride ourselves on the skill and the quality that we build into the engine and you can't do that with robots. Robots' ll do whatever you ask them all the time, but they don't think. Erm and because of the way of things, you don't always get the components the same way every day. You always get one reject. So the robot would pick that and use it. Whereas the man will pick it and discard it. So... there are applications you can use them and some you can't. [speaker005:] Your continuous improvement in in the factory a lot over the years. What is your relationship with the unions in the in the plant? [A. Ritchie:] Erm initially, [LAUGHTER] initially very bad, I have to say that. As I say, it's a very emotive subject. But if you are honest and up front with them, and tell them exactly what you're doing and why you're trying to do it, eventually over time, you get them And we started this in nineteen eighty five, eighty six. And I would say, Now we are starting to see the fruits of that. And it's taken that length of time to break down the seventy or eighty year barriers that are in existence between workers and management. Erm and i think there will always be, for some time yet, a wee bit of distrust there, on both sides. Erm quite a lot you just have to be honest with people and tell I mean we've got It's unfortunate we can threaten people if you like, it's the wrong word to use. But you say to them, You know, look at, erm one week they announced, I can't remember the figures, twenty three million investment. Four months later they closed it just like that. again, they closed and then reopened. So there're examples in the area where if we don't pull our socks up and and actually start working, then it could happen to us as well. But no, it was very difficult at first. It's still difficult at times, erm there is nothing forced into them, it's all through mutual discussion. Erm there had been one or two occasions where we have to be the management if you like, and say, No I'm sorry, that is what we are doing. Erm we've had enough discussion, we now need to go that way. But those occasions are very few and far between now. [speaker006:] , where does the material come from for? [A. Ritchie:] For the the engines themselves? The componentry? Erm we produce about thirty percent in house. And that's from U K sources of raw material. Like castings. We do a lot of machining of castings. Er of the other seventy percent, er about twenty five percent of that will be from bought in finished material, from companies in the U K. Pardon me, one or two in Scotland but not too many unfortunately. The remaining forty five, fifty percent, is actually bought in from America. Remember we have got seven manufacturing site in the States that manufacture the same product for the American market. They therefore have bigger buying power, than one company in Scotland. So they can buy as seven companies at a much cheaper rate and ship it across to us, and the sea freight is still doesn't add to the cost that much. Er so unfortunately, fifty percent of material comes in from the States. [speaker007:] How many of your What percentage of your staff on the shop floor are tradesmen? [A. Ritchie:] Erm very few. We have most of our maintenance staff are time served fitters or electricians. In the actual machine shop and the assembly operators themselves. They are I would say, ninety percent semi- skilled. we have trained them in er in fact in the operations they're doing. You have to remember that was on old coal mining area. And again, I think one of the main reasons round about nineteen fifty six, that went there, was the pits were closing, and there was obviously erm government attractions to pull companies in. Much more then than there is now. So we have a lot of ex-miners. Erm... but I would say it's mostly maintenance trades. We have gone slightly the other way with obviously robotics and the electronic age and this sort of thing. A lot of our machine tools are C N C, so we need to employ the skills there. Erm but these are mostly technician people. I would say in the majority, it's semi-skilled. [speaker007:] And a supplementary question going on from that. Do you employ apprentices? [A. Ritchie:] Yes we do. Erm unfortunately not so many. We've taken apprentices every year since I've been there. Erm when i started fifteen years ago, it was an intake of about twenty five er lads at a time, we're now down to about unfortunately eight or nine craft apprentices. And I think about three technical apprentices. We have... erm... one female apprentice who's time was just out there last year. She's a maintenance technician, and she actually won the Scottish whatever it is, Apprentice Award. So we're quite proud of her, and she gets on great with the guys. And she's the only female on the floor. We have girls in the offices and women in the offices obviously, but she's the only tradesperson if you like, on the floor. But yeah, we're still taking them on but not in so many numbers. [speaker008:] Alec, erm do you have er company comparisons. You've got seven or more plants in the States elsewhere er you know on criteria such as erm quality and productivity, cost and so on. If so, how do make out in the company league table? [A. Ritchie:] Right. [LAUGHTER] We have, we started again, nineteen eighty nine, we decided taking on board some of the Japanese ideas which we felt we could use. And discarded the rest which we felt did not transpose. We erm developed what we call C P S. Which is the commons production system. To functional excellence. And there are ten measures within that production system. Erm and these measures are criteria for every plant worldwide. Now we have plants in India, Brazil erm we now have one in China, we were about to open one in Russia but it burned down. Part of the deal, I don't know if you tread about it in the paper. Six hundred and thirty million we lost. Erm and it's the same criteria worldwide. We have corporate headquarters obviously dictate policy. And you have to adjust that policy at local level. Because some of the ideas and and and beliefs in America for example, don't hold good up in. And vice versa. But the basic top level objective policy is set plan you know, worldwide for each plant. And against that, these ten measures are measured. erm in fact housekeeping in one of them would you believe. Housekeeping is one of the measures. Erm out of the ten, I would say, we have got about seven above target, and three below target. And the ones that are below target funnily enough, are productivity, which is still measured, and I don't agree with that. Productivity's an old fashioned measure. What you could actually measure is delivery to your customer. But we still measure productivity. Erm and we are slightly below target on that. We are above target in quality. We are above target in housekeeping. So in a sort of worldwide league table if you like, we're well above average. And you're right because these are the things that when when your vice president and you president come every year, as they do, on their annual visit, and they go to Gleneagles for their game of golf first. Erm... they are in the plant I don't know, maybe four hours or six hours. Two or three of those hours are spent reviewing the financial results. Obviously we still need to make money. That's why we're in business. The other two or three hours are on the floor. And it's that three hours that's the impression that they take away with them. That's the only chance you get in that one whole year, to impress these people. So when they're sitting in their corporate offices, making decisions about, Well where will we send the work. Well last time I was at it was dirty. Guys were hanging about, standing all over the place, not their backside. That's the impression they have of. And this is the m the message you have to get across to the people. And we are we are getting there. We're getting there. And one of the things we did this year for example. Which I find very difficult, is we actually went no smoking on the first of January. Erm and that was after we put out a referendum around the plant and we got a seventy eight response saying, No smoking. So there's a mass exodus to the car park now at lunchtime. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [A. Ritchie:] Anything else? [speaker009:] In the you mentioned smoking. What about the standards of lavatories and that? [A. Ritchie:] I'm not sure I understand your question. [speaker009:] Er are the toilets kept up to a high standard? [A. Ritchie:] Well I'll let my son answer that, he's actually been in the plant a couple of times and What's your impression of the place? [speaker010:] Er they're alright. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [A. Ritchie:] Yes it's fine. I mean it's In actual fact the the number of people I've had in and One thing I should say, if you feel you would like a visit one evening, to the plant, then I'm more than welcome to try and organize something for you. But the number of people that I've had in erm both customers and visitors like yourselves, that have been so impressed by the standards of housekeeping and cleanliness and tidiness, for an engineering facility. Erm it really is quite outstanding. And we are not the best. There are people better. [speaker001:] what about future development. Everything seems to be on a big scale, there's no question about scaling down? [A. Ritchie:] Well in fact, what happened erm last year is we reduced the size of our machine shop. We lost twenty three thousand square feet last year. And this was mostly because of old machine tools being tossed away. Erm for example we have a flexible machining system of six machines that replaced forty two. So that obviously reduces your floor space. And what we are trying to do is attract other business into that floor space. Erm we started a contract a year and a half ago with M O D to produce a power pack for a fighting vehicle. Called the A S ninety fighting vehicle, built by ship building down at Barrow. We're doing a hundred and seventy nine of these for the British Army. A big big contract worth a lot of money. Erm there's a repair programme for South African Railways, to repair erm all their tractors, big things. Er again we're hoping to attract that in maybe next year. So no, we don't want to scale down. We want to increase, we want er we want to be at for as long as we can. Provide employment for as long as we can. For as many as we can. [speaker001:] What about scaling down the engine size? What about getting into the car market [A. Ritchie:] No. No it's we're not we're not in there's there are people who are more established at that Bill, better at it and longer at it than we are. We are high speed diesel manufacturers in the big range. In the range that you saw. Erm we we there's a company called. erm American company who have a big holding in Germany, who produce combine harvesters and this type of stuff, agricultural equipment. We got into a partnership with them to develop a small engine a couple of years ago, for their application. It was down round about the forty two, forty five horsepower mark. But no, we just we couldn't get the cost right. We just couldn't compete at that You need to produce thousands and thousands of these things, to get the economies of scale. And er we just couldn't do it. And we d actually from that. Okay, well. [speaker001:] [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello, well come in. [speaker002:] Oh [speaker003:] You're not married yet? [speaker002:] Yes. Cos changing doctors and I'm not changing. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] You're a bad woman. [speaker002:] I know cos I'm in now, and you don't do, [speaker003:] Ah. [speaker002:] so I'm not changing. [speaker003:] Well curly what can we do for you? [speaker002:] It's my back. [speaker003:] What have you done to it? [speaker002:] Now I don't know if it's my back or my neck. I don't know. I got a prescription last week, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I don't know where I put it. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right so I just stopped at the paracetamol, and I says, Och, I'd better not go back up. [speaker003:] Where's it sore? [speaker002:] Between my shoulder blades, it's also at the bottom of my spine just now and again. It's, I'm really really busy at work, I'm at a warehouse, and I don't know if I've maybe caught a muscle. [speaker003:] It sounds like it. It sounds like that but [speaker002:] I can feel like a sort of gritting, [speaker003:] See that [speaker002:] in the back of my neck. [speaker003:] that big muscle from there right down the back of you. [speaker002:] It's, I can't sleep at night. Oh I know. [speaker003:] You appear to enjoy this. [speaker002:] I know. [speaker003:] From just down about there. Aha. [speaker002:] Aye, aye, aha. I know I'm going down and down. It's not as bad as my head but it's sore, [speaker003:] What about there? [speaker002:] it's [speaker003:] If I do that [speaker002:] Aye, that's how, where I knew it wouldn't wanna go there. [speaker003:] Ah. Right. [speaker002:] See when I'm walking I can actually hear something in the back of [speaker003:] Aye, creaking. [speaker002:] my neck. [speaker003:] That's right. Come on, let's turn you into a human being for wee while again. [speaker002:] I hope so, as long as I get a sleep at night, I don't care what you're giving me. [speaker003:] There you can still. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... I know, I'm just, never been able to call out the doctor. [speaker003:] Eh... now this is strong stuff, never take it on an empty stomach. [speaker002:] Never. [speaker003:] Right? [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] You have been warned, you have been warned. Don't let your father get these. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] But he'll want them all? [speaker003:] [whispering] Yeah. []... [speaker002:] Great. [speaker003:] There's a good painkiller in those and there's the stuff to scatter the bruising as well. [speaker002:] Good. [speaker003:] Take two in the morning before you go out and two before you go bed at night. [speaker002:] Two in the morning, two at night, [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] so I've got to have my breakfast first? [speaker003:] Aye,. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Right, [speaker002:] when I says I've got. I hope so. [speaker003:] chance to. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I hope so. [speaker003:] Right, okay Lorraine, cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Well did you enjoy your holiday? [speaker003:] Good, [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] good, how you keeping? [speaker002:] Fine. Except I'm awful awful tired all of the time. [speaker003:] Tired? [speaker002:] as that. [speaker003:] Now.... [whispering] [] [speaker002:] That's the only I came up to tell you. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'm not on tablets for [speaker003:] Mm. Mhm. Er [speaker002:] I've been finding that normally I can get up early in the morning, give Heather a ring or if she's staying with me give her a shout, you know for her work. [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] And that's me up for the day. And I'm sitting dozing, falling as asleep all the time. [speaker003:] Oh right. [speaker002:] I get up with [speaker003:] What. [speaker002:] the intention of, the day's over before [speaker003:] Aye, what what's what's your er what's your sleeping like, is that quite good or is it broken? [speaker002:] No, well mostly toilet in the middle of the night but I go straight back to bed and go back to sleep again. [speaker003:] No problem getting to sleep again, [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] no. [door knock] Come in. [speaker005:] Come on. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] work to do. [speaker003:] Hiya. [speaker004:] I'm. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I could be seeing. [speaker003:] We'll we'll give your Gran some nice medicine? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Will we? [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker003:] S Will we, right. Here Gran.... Can you give that to your mum? [speaker002:] Leave that Lindsey. [speaker004:] Lindsey bring it over please. [speaker003:] Can you give that to your mum Lindsey?... That's a girl. [speaker004:] Right leave that with. [speaker003:] That's a girl. [speaker004:] Come on, come on, say [speaker005:] What's that? [speaker004:] ... [speaker003:] And you had a good holiday did you? [speaker002:] Yes, I got the flu in right enough. [LAUGHTER] I think it was going to the extreme heat and damp down in, you know whether it was cold in. [speaker003:] Was it? [speaker002:] Mm, we went back to the heat in, and the last week it rained every single day. Now they're back to the good weather again. [speaker003:] They knew you were coming home. [speaker002:] Must have done. [speaker003:] Well let's get you back on your feet again. [speaker005:] Look at me. [speaker003:] Turn you into a human being. Oh Lindsey's away, oh yes she's back again. Can you give this to your Gran? [speaker002:] What have I got there Doctor? Can you give that to your Gran, let me see you. Ah that's a good girl. Right, it's your, your Lorazepam Mhm. [speaker003:] and I've given you a good old fashioned tonic to get your strength all up again. [speaker005:] I've got a [speaker003:] To get you,... to get you ready for looking after Yes, aye, okay. If I want to poison you [speaker005:] Mammy. [speaker003:] young I'll know what to [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No, but you know when you say like [speaker005:] Mammy. [speaker002:] to take cough and things like, and I nearly died the other night, I'd taken one and I'd taken some of this cough, [speaker003:] Aye. [speaker002:] and then that chap that used to come a bit, he says not to take er what is that thing that you use? To use it on food, condiment stuff. [speaker003:] Mhm, that's right. [speaker005:] What's that? [speaker002:] And I was sitting eating mussels with vinegar in them. [speaker005:] What's that? [speaker002:] and all of a sudden I developed she'd be on the phone going, I've just eaten mussels with vinegar in them. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] What's that? [speaker003:] No no. They're quite safe. [speaker004:] on the phone, Well I don't feel well. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So I'll be back up to see you [speaker005:] What's hat? [speaker002:] next month, on the twelfth of May, because that's when my next line's due. [speaker003:] Right, okay. [speaker002:] Okay? [speaker003:] Well that'll that'll get things things boosted up for you again and we'll have you back [speaker002:] Thanks a lot. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Right, say bye bye, [speaker003:] Right, bye bye, [speaker005:] Bye. [speaker003:] will you come back another day? [speaker005:] Aye. [speaker003:] Right, [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] okay, whatever you say. Alright. [speaker002:] Yes, that's better. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Thanks Doctor. Cheerio. [speaker003:] Alright, cheerio now. [speaker005:] See you Doctor. [speaker003:] Cheerio. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Mr in there, actually last time he was in a while. [speaker002:] Oh right, whatever you say, whatever you say. [speaker003:] Just that patient's [speaker002:] Hello, well Mr, well what can we do for you today young lad? [speaker003:] I need a a few more tablets of the yellow ones, the. [speaker002:] Oh right, right. [speaker003:] And erm some for my work, you know I have that herpes in my lap, it's breaking out again. [speaker002:] Is it breaking again? [speaker003:] It's er it never was away, I'm it's a good indicator as to when, how much pressure I can take. [speaker002:] Mhm. Er... Was it Zovirax you were taking, wasn't it? [speaker003:] No, you gave me something [speaker002:] The other one? [speaker003:] or something, [speaker002:] Yes, that's right. [speaker003:] But you can only use it up for a month and then you. [speaker002:] Yes, oh aye, aye, just use it for the month Charlie and then, and then in the bucket, don't keep using it after that. [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] It's not safe. [speaker003:] Cos you just told me to use a wee bit of it. [speaker002:] Yes, oh aye, you just need a wee drop of it, you don't need a lot.... [whispering] Put it on every day, [], is that right for you? Are your other tablets, [speaker003:] Oh they're okay erm just one thing, erm I went to the dentist up over there in Street, and he made a mess of filling two teeth. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and I reckon he broke them but he says he's no broken but I I I felt the tooth in two side of my mouth so I just stopped the treatment there and I'm going to another dentist some time but my wife, I don't want to go there now cos money's tight, I was on the D H S S, I was due to pay the first forty nine pound. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I paid forty pound ninety five, right? And I finished my treatment with him. If I go to another dentist do you think it's worth my while writing to D H S S, saying I've paid forty five, forty pound ninety five pence, at that dentist and can I transfer the treatment to this other dentist [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and only pay him further eight pound or whatever. [speaker002:] Whatever, yeah. [speaker003:] Do you think that might be worth my while doing that? [speaker002:] Yes, I think so. [speaker003:] Because erm... [speaker002:] It's a lot of money. [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] So I [speaker003:] When I went first he took one out there and he took it out clean, but this one here, in actual fact he gave me a stitch, and when the stitch wasn't in you could see the tooth protruding a bit. [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker003:] And erm but when he took the stitch it's covered it up. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] And my teeth are in bad, all my teeth are badly in need of repair. But [speaker002:] Don't rush at it. [speaker003:] I just wish it was all over, like now I had to last out until the thirty first of March, which I did do. [speaker002:] Mhm. You did. [speaker003:] But then again, when I was a a small boy... the university professors that were interested in me told my father I'd do what I would have to do in my mid-forties. I'm forty, nearly forty five in January. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] My father had a and he said it would be forty seven, say it would likely be forty seven, but that's forty seven is two year eight month away, which is a long time for me to keep it going. Also [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] also some of the things that I've been going on with, doing this one with three, and I don't know if it, they'll stay in the can long enough for that. You know what I mean, so... what, but again some come through with it. My father had another, everything was okay if you came out at any time after the thirty first of March, look all I'm doing now is I was giving back, er taking my position as the company director, getting a salary off the rent in my farms and small holdings and my shares in shipping. But now I'm just deciding I'll live off invalidity benefit for a wee while longer, leaving that in the hands of my my managing director and somebody else and the money that's coming through from the Queen and whatever I'm just gonna live on invalidity benefit, I'm only drawing invalidity benefit, I'm not gonna get any more money than invalidity benefit. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Let this accrue up or whatever. You know Dr, when I was a young man... this billionaire had his had his daughter and son kidnapped and held in a barn on his farm and they wanted twenty million pound ransom for them. So I was close by and so they sent me in so the way I, I got dressed up in the minister's cassock, and I got in revised the books of Genesis, like through and I get genned up to be a minister and I took in a bible and er well anyway I killed five men and they got out alive. [63 1] But when I was seeing him he offered to write me a check for five million pound, I said, I couldn't take a check for five million pound because I was a to me. If ever you're needing a million or anything like that, write to me and I'll give you it. So with this going on we found our company would get on better if I had collateral so I wrote to this boy and asked him for a million and put it in a trust fund that I would get after his death, and we that way so okay. Right? So I came back er with a trust fund so what I'd done, Golf Course were having troubles, right, Golf Course. And one was going to but it off them for two hundred and fifty thousand so my mate said, You make the offer at two hundred and fifty and you'll help me, so I says, I'm getting it for two hundred if I say, an eighteen hole golf course, and I'll sell it back to them when they can afford to buy it back off me, right? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] We're using that [phone rings] trust fund as collateral for a loan of two hundred thousand to buy the Golf Course and the golf course to make it profit profitable, and so the bank are now in the process of now selling it back to them, what they're offering, [speaker002:] Excuse me a wee second, Charlie. [phonecall starts] Hello.... so... Right, okay. [phonecall ends] [speaker003:] One firm offered them forty five, four hundred and fifty thousand pounds, I said I wanted three hundred thousand, cos I done a lot of repair, a lot of renovating, and I made the bar open and I made my money through selling drink and getting in entertainment. The best place to go like to go for a wee dance, the only place you could go for a wee da, that's the. We started making a profit. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] But erm, I woul what, erm, I also, the Hotel, we bought that the same way, they were selling that back and making quite a fair bit of profit, investing the money in arable land. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Cos arable land pays for itself, it's all taken care of. So... all I'm saying is I just want, I want to finish but again you're in danger cos I just carry on you see that's down there. Somebody broke into my house, I reckon I recognize person. Maybe I mentioned about the fillings coming out on this side of my mouth and at the back, so I ca... They took it out in my living room and hypnotized me to forget, hypnotized walking about in my sleep with it, to sleep, got me in the chair and done it, got out of the house, programmed me to go to that dentist in, which I did do instead of going to Mr at. He broke two of my teeth extracting them but he says they're out clean, when I told him to take another X-ray of it. He only took the one but he didn't take two. So but he thinks I've got away with it but the pus in my mouth right now [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] and they can look at this anytime. I must get my other teeth attended to and the cream can deal with. I I remember I knocked out a man's teeth in front of witnesses, just by using my mi my fist like that, hitting their tooth with a karate pass and brought the tooth out cleanly. One of these away at the back used to what it would be like to have teeth. But I'm the rest of the cream. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I'm under orders. [speaker002:] Don't don't do anything. [speaker003:] I mean I've even though about if I... if I tell you this and you think that's it's going to put you you just even if you pass it on to somebody what I'm telling you pass it on, but just and I'll try and get the dental treatment where I can get the dental treatment. [speaker002:] Say no more. Say no more. [speaker003:] I'm just can you put me down for some paracetamols for the pain I've got pain in my in my my jaw. [speaker002:] Right. Right. [speaker003:] thing I told you about lady in red, remember that, a million and a quarter, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] the Queen,... Alexander, Sir Alexander, me, and and the piano player. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] I I forget his name, but it's all coming back, little children in well that's not bad isn't it,. [speaker002:] Not bad, not bad at all. [speaker003:] See s see how could I forget my life, how could I forget... these things I'm telling you. time I forget but. [speaker002:] Right, okay, I'll see you again young man. [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Right okay, right now, look after yourself. [speaker003:] I'm either telling the truth or, and I think I'm telling the truth. [speaker002:] Look after yourself, right cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] trying to put it in the bin,, not my fault. [speaker003:] Yes, yes yes. What have you done to this poor wee man? [speaker004:] It's his leg Doctor, [speaker003:] What's she done to you? [speaker004:] rash. [speaker003:] What've they been doing to you? Were they bad to you? [whispering] Were they? Were they bad? [] These women are all the same. You'll get used, you'll used to it.. I'd better look under the big light. There we go, let's see what's. [whispering] What did I do? Were they bad? Were they? Were they bad to you? Were they? [] Are you just kidding me on? [whispering] Are you? Are you just kidding on? Are you? Are you just kidding on? [] [speaker005:] [child noises start, laughing mostly] [speaker003:] Are you just kidding on? You're just kidding on? Aren't you? Just kidding me on? Oh that's a good boy, there now. Oh it's only an allergic rash,. [speaker004:] It's just [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker004:] or on his body or anything. And and she said this afternoon, [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker004:] and she advised to bring him in to. [speaker003:] It looks like an allergic rash. Have you changed your soap powder or erm fabric softener. [speaker004:] I don't used it cos my husband's allergic to it. [speaker003:] Aye, that's that's certainly what it looks like. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker003:] You know that type of thing. Either a fabric softener or a soap powder rash. He's not on any medicines? [speaker004:] No, he got his injections last Thursday. [speaker003:] Aye [whispering] [], I wouldn't do that to you, I wouldn't do that. [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't do it to you. Right okay, up you come and we'll get you something for that. It's not erm anything that's he's going to pass on. It looks much much more like erm an allergic rash and he's got an allergic reaction to something. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] Isn't it? Who's that, sitting there? You like that? You can see everything now. [speaker004:] He just loves fun, don't you? He loves attention. [speaker003:] He would love to walk as well. [speaker004:] He would love to walk. [speaker003:] Wouldn't you? [speaker004:] I wish he would walk, he's been so heavy for me to carry. [speaker003:] Why carry you instead, is it? [LAUGHTER] I'm not so sure about that. Are you. [speaker004:] he loves to get thrown up and [speaker003:] Do you, do you like that? [speaker004:] The rougher the better. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] There we are. Now then, you go back to your mum, I'll write something down on a prescription here for you. [speaker004:] If it was an allergy to soap powder would it take a long time to come out? [speaker003:] Can do, it can take several months before it comes out. [speaker004:] I had been washing all his hand. his clothes by hand before I went back to work and of course I don't have quite the same time [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker004:] so I've been putting them in the washing machine so maybe [speaker003:] It could be something as simple as that. [speaker004:] And it would take maybe, it could take longer, I mean it [speaker003:] Yes, it takes, it could take to get the skin sensitized [speaker004:] I see. [speaker003:] And then to produce a reaction. [speaker004:] So I'd be best to go back to [speaker003:] Aye, I think so. I'm afraid, I'm afraid so. The only other thing I would say is erm [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right well it's just two minutes three minutes past eight o'clock and erm I welcome you all to this hustings meeting of Greater Manchester West Liberal Democrats. Greater Manchester, West, just in case anybody is in any doubt, consist of eight parliamentary constituencies. Salford East, Eccles, Worsley, Bolton West, Bolton Northeast, Bolton Southeast, Berry North and Berry South. It has erm at the last European Election it had five hundred and twenty two thousand voters, so picking the candidate is really [LAUGHTER] the first stage on s trying to get amongst five hundred and twenty two thousand voters. Er that was Bob, who's from Worsley, he's a steward. The chappie who let you in at the front door was Norman he's form Salford East. Next to me is Neil, he's the returning officer, he's the chairman of the candidates committee in erm the northwest. [Neil Derbyshire:] Mm. [speaker001:] Me right hand side is John one of the candidates, and my left hand side is er Frank. Er the r the steering committee consisted of eight members, one form each constituency, and we started meeting last November. And er we er ploughed through this until tonight, and er I think I'm right, Mr returning officer, say that we're the first Euro constituency in the northwest to get to this stage. So erm in spite of all the odds of [LAUGHTER] trying to get a candidates a at the beginning, and finding that there wasn't one available, and it wouldn't Isn't one e well not didn't exist. I must say that street, er they were a little busy at the time with Newbury and Christchurch and who can blame but them that they were very successful. If er if we can be as successful next June, I'd be very happy. Erm well what we decided on the the procedure was that we'd toss a coin, in front of you all, we must be democratic, and some Either of these two gentleman is going to say heads or tails, and whoever wins can choose either to go erm first or second. They have er thirty minutes each, er twenty minutes A at least ten minutes have to be given over to you for questions, so they speak for a maximum of twenty minutes. [cough] The one who goes f fi Who's going to go second goes out so that he doesn't hear anything and erm and then they change over er after thirty minutes. And then you vote. Er we have received, the returning officer, what [Neil Derbyshire:] A hundred and twenty one. [speaker001:] A hundred and twenty one postal votes. Erm out of er the five hundred and forty two er cards went out. [Neil Derbyshire:] Mm. [speaker001:] Voting slips went out. Erm So we come now to tossing, who who's going to call? [LAUGHTER] [John Begg:] Tail. [speaker001:] It is. [John Begg:] I'll go first. [speaker001:] Go on. [John Begg:] Thank you. [speaker001:] We w we'll l we'll we'll call you. Er if you just let look. So I'm The time is going to be as per my watch. So we er we'll time them so We must be terribly fair. And it's er six minutes, seven minutes past Seven minutes past eight. John. L l John is first, he's from Marple and I'm certain you've all read his er little report. [John Begg:] Well good evening everybody, friends, Liberal Democrats. My name's John and I am indeed from Ahzelgrove local party in the Euro constituency of Greater Manchester East. And to get one thing out of the way, straight away. Greater Manchester West is my first choice, not Greater Manchester East, and when I looked at the vote in the last contest, back in nineteen eighty eight, when the erm then Alliance, or the ex-Alliance vote was split between the social erm liberal democrats as they were then, and the S D P, and saw the votes I had to beat this time, six thousand nine hundred, I thought I can look good next to that. Erm being more serious, erm Marple isn't very far away and it only took me thirty minutes to get from my house in Marple to here, tonight, and although some of the constituency's further away than this and that is actually one of the main considerations, and we're local. Erm the European election's next year, Europe, the issue. I think the first thing you're going to need from any candidate is that they're going to have to believe in Europe. The public aren't convince, if the candidate isn't convinced it's going to be difficult for everybody. And I am convinced about Europe and I do believe in Europe, very much. One of the first books I read as a young adult was A G L Fisher's History of Europe. And it struck me straight away that although the twentieth century as it marched on made us look more and more like Americans, we are Europeans, we always have been Europeans, our roots are there, our culture's there and of course in the late twentieth century our economic needs, and the geographical links, the electronic links mean that we are there whether we like it or not. And I'm proud to be a European and believe in Europe as well as accepting the realities. I believe some of the things we have to share with the Europeans and learn from them are very urgent in Britain at the moment. There is the little manner of planning. We don't like everything the French do, but they plan things like railways. And public transport is in my view one of the most disgraceful aspects in modern Britain. And one where if we're not prepared to learn from the Europeans, whether it's integrated transport in cities or whether it's intercity links or wherever, we're going to be in a great deal of trouble. And education. Even although Spain is not one of the most well off, one of the richer countries, they pumped money into education after democracy and E C ownership came to their country. And they've caught up from being one of the most illiterate countries in Europe to on the edge of the leading group. Education. Planning for transport, things like that. We have to learn form them, we have to be in with them, we are Europeans, and that is our destiny. And it's the Liberal Democrats, friends, that have got the best policies on these things. We're the one's who unashamedly say, Europe has to go forward if it doesn't go backwards. We are going to have Europe as an E C, since we accepted for example the single market. If we don't move towards some form of Federal structure, with of course some celerity we will decay, we will go backwards. We're not ashamed to say that. The heart of Europe as we mean it, is not John Major's heart of Europe. A sort of erm standing really on the sidelines, just stopping people from doing things and smirking when other people get into difficulties. Our Europe is a is a Europe which is proud that we are similar and we can share things. We believe in the social contract. I was a bit disappointed that we weren't that warm on it initially. And it is actually now being remembered by one or two of our opponents. But whatever, we are keen on it now, we should always have been, and if you treat people at the work place just like dirt, if you continue to turn Britain into a sweat shop, drive down wages, drive down people's rights, then you may get some form of external investment come into this country, but we will never compete with the Dutch and the Germans and the Scandinavians, and we will never have a happy and united country. I'm proud that we are now, fully, in line with the social contract. And as I say, we believe that we have to have a federal structure and we believe in m democracy throughout Europe and throughout Britain. And I always find it extremely amusing that the government of this country screams about Brussels wanting to centralize everything when they of course, are the most centralizing British government, the present conservatives, that we've ever known. and the idea of local democracy in this country, for example, is totally shamed next to parts of the Bundes Republic of Germany or Italy or indeed many other countries. So We've got the right policies, I believe in Europe, I'm sure you round the room here tonight do, it's an issue we've got to raise. Now what about the coming campaign. It's all very well believing in things, it's all very well being on board for the ideas, but this campaign in greater Manchester West, and elsewhere, has got to achieve things. It's not long away, the second week in June next year. Even though we're first to get going we're not exactly quick to get going. And I I view that this campaign as having basically, four major, and one personal objective. The objectives are surely that we do the Liberal Democrats some real good, both nationally and in this area, in the longer term as well as for next June. Until we remove the present government from Westminster, then Europe is going to struggle to do us a great deal of good. Because the present British government are so totally encompassing, they're such a dead hand, they are doing so much damage that the Liberal Democrat's have got to be seen as a party that can help beat them or indeed, entirely on its own beat them. And next June is a great opportunity for the Liberal Democrats. Even if some of the signs of upturn, of turn around, of better things to come the government are trying to trumpet at the moment. Even if they turn out to be right, some of them, they still have British Rail privatization, they still have VAT on fuel, they still have rising water charges, they still have the education wrangle. They are in a lot of trouble and we have got to benefit from it. I think, as I said before, the pro The idea of Europe, the profile of Europe is important, and although i don't think I should be campaign, if I win tonight, on things that interest me and don't interest others, I'm not afraid to say that I do want to make it, to a degree at least, a genuine European campaign. I want us to get a thoroughly good vote in this Euro constituency, by maximizing our effectiveness. Getting out, to vote for us, the people who will vote for us. It may be a low turnout, but our voters don't have to be part of a low turnout. And there could be a protest vote, there will be a protest vote, as the greens knew last time, and we to our sadness found out last time. There is a c a protest vote in such elections that can be milked very successfully. Now also, knowing that there's only just over five hundred or just six hundred members of the Liberal Democrats, in the eight constituencies that comprise our Euro constituency, there will be many benefits that can come off a Euro campaign in terms of membership, in terms of helpers, in in terms of morale and generally raising our profile, just through press contacts and things like that. So I'm hoping to work with you to help the are in terms of the Liberal Democrat membership and activism, in a general sense, that can be used later. And finally I'm obviously hoping to do myself some good. I've been a candidate before, I don't like to do things badly, since coming into politics I don't think I have done things badly, I don't want to fail you and I don't want you to see me as a failure. So I shall be doing my best. We've got to be realistic. Time is short, resources are short. For my first as I put down in my erm blurb before, will be to meet you in small or large groups throughout the Euro constituency, and see what you can do to help me and to convince you erm that I will be a a good campaign leader, a good candidate. To get you on board, to get you on my side. To start looking at press links very quickly, because ah I prospective candidate has always got a lead in, and so many issues have a European dimension. Erm [cough] obviously to look for the start of a campaign team as soon as possible. So that we've got a running organization that can react to things, and indeed proact as well. And clearly anyone from outside Northwest Manchester has got to start looking at the are and doing some research and finding out where the big firms are, who the important people are, etcetera, to make sure that I know the area that I'm candidate in. Very briefly to move on to the further thing now, What about myself as your prospective candidate? What can i offer you? Apart from believing in it and wanting to do it? Well as I said, i am a convinced European, and I'm perfectly comfortable debating European issues. Not just about the E E C, but about Europe and Europeans. I speak some French and some Italian. My own specialism in Europe is Italy and er believe you me, although Italian politics is a terrific mess, you can't help finding when you look at It Italian the Italian scene at the moment, some of the decadence and decay of one party rule in this country. And some of the connections are quite revealing, and the actions of the Italians in getting very very frustrated and angry now, and having the Christian Democrats and the Mafia and the and the establishment ruling them for many many years, I think does them proud and er maybe a little bit of anger here, about the same issues, would go down quite well. Erm [cough] er so I am a European, I like talking about Europe, I've travelled extensively in Europe erm so it's an interest, I'm comfortable. Erm... as a candidate and as a pre-candidate in the period up to the campaign, I have been a er a parliamentary candidate twice, in nineteen eighty seven in Stockport and in nineteen eighty three in Denton and Reddish. As I I love being a candidate, I love talking to voters, I like being active and doing things and that's the reason basically that I want to be your Euro candidate, I'm ready to be a candidate again. But also in the years since the Liberal Democrats' inception, I've been chairman of the Metropolitan Stockport Liberal Democrats. That's the team of management that I, together with one or two others, built up from scratch at the beginning of the Liberal Democrats, and we now in Stockport have a highly successful erm m As I say, tier of management for training, for campaigning, for policy development in Stockport, and as you probably know we do have a good record of winning local council seats. We do do things well, generally speaking, in Stockport. And I've been the leader of of that party for the last four and half years, I am ready to step down from that, and ready to take up this challenge, and I believe that those experiences, and what I've done there, will stand me in good stead. Because some of the time the candidate has to be some of the other things as well. You'll want other people to be you campaign manager, your agent, your press agent and whatever. But sometimes you have to do them yourself. And it's good to know that if you have to, you can. And it's good to know if you, when you know you've got to have to build teams, that you've done it before. I'm a local man, I've lived in Stockport, erm it is of course in the county of Greater Manchester, for twenty five years. Erm I have a wife, erm Pat, and a daughter who is eighteen. Erm but finally, I'm a Liberal Democrat, I'm proud to be one, I was in the Alliance before, an S D P member it turns out, I'm a great admirer of the present leader, Paddy Ashdown, and I think he, and all of us, have done wonders since the dismal days in late eighty seven, when our opinion poll rating was Well single figures and not even necessarily that bigger single figure. But finally I'm a citizen. I think Britain is in a mess, I'm ashamed of some of the things the present government have done. I want the Liberal Democrats to play a major part, both in Britain and in Europe, to turning things round. And for me I want to start here, thank you. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Well that was fourteen minutes so you've got fifteen minutes to ask questions of John, and [cough] it would help, I think, if you want to ask a question, to stand up and say who you are and where you come from, which constituency. So that gentleman there. [speaker003:] Er [cough] Salford. Erm you're a European. I want to know two things from you. Your views on training people for their working future. On minimum wages and pension rights. Because some of these have been issues in this country, this work. [John Begg:] You mentioned pension rights, you mention er workers [speaker003:] training. [John Begg:] Mm? [speaker003:] Training for work. [John Begg:] Yes. [speaker003:] And I was hoping to cos I can quote you instances where people have trained in the health service, and they've been told nineteen seventy four seventy five, when you complete your training, you're not guaranteed a job in this health authority. [John Begg:] Well training for people for work. I mean t to start off with I don't we we as a nation really are. I've got a horrible feeling tat we're doing too much of getting people ready to do low skill jobs largely from investment from outside. While the real jobs are going elsewhere. The jobs that people need good education to do. But the problem of people be being trained for jobs, and then the jobs not being there, I'm afraid at the moment is European wide. And my own feeling about this is that we do have to move more to planned expansion. We do have to take a leaf, a little bit out of Kenzie's book from the n the late nineteen thirties and afterwards, that when things are receding, you don't batten down the hatches, you don't simply close things in. The government has The governments have got to step in to create opportunities. I know what we hear straight away, oh that's government meddling, that's going to cost a fortune. But Kenzian economics at times like this, has not been a failure. Once you've created the jobs for people it has given the economies an upturn and I feel it's rather a shame that the erm the great problems of the of the Germans particularly have put that pressure for high interest rates through the er E R M, through those currencies and one, I think, good thing of Britain's disaster last year, with with their position in the E R M, is that by lowering interest rates, if we only had a government who wanted to use that opportunity probably, we could train people for for work. Now our government of course, still bolted completely to Reaganomics, Thatcheromics whatever, just believes that business should just get on and do what it wants and drive wages down and sack people if that's what they feel's best. Erm as regards erm pension rights, well my understanding is that through the Maastricht treaty and the social social contract, certainly, many of the protections at work, er will include those of people who have finished work. I don't know if you're alluding to the fact that pension rights might might soon be eroded in this country. [speaker003:] that state pension rights are being eroded. [John Begg:] Mm. [speaker003:] whatever it is [John Begg:] Mm. [speaker003:] But certainly prefer to see that pensions, that encompass all working people and from the time that we're men to work until they retire and that something is arrange for the person's when they're senior citizens. [John Begg:] Well I I I don't know, you know, how practical a scheme as wide ranging as that would be, so I I won't pretend to waffle. Erm I d I d I do know that the pension rights generally, in E C countries, are better than here. We have one of the lowest standard pensions for a for an O A P in the whole of western Europe. and and certainly part of wanting the social contract is to is to give a level of decency to to our people. Erm one has to say though that that does mean creating wealth. that does mean balancing the books, and it does mean moving away from some of the crazy policies of the present government, who have of course encouraged people and companies to avoid paying tax. [speaker003:] Erm. constituency. Erm one local issue which is er considerably importance in the area where I live, er is the er proposition to put a very large new motorway through the area er bypassing the whole of the existing motorway system in Greater Manchester. Er the er existing Euro M P, Gary, [John Begg:] Mm. [speaker003:] er has done a good job, one has to face it, in supporting the objectors to that motorway. Erm first of all er would you, if er if you became Euro candidate er the unequivocally support the objectors to this motorway and secondly, would it be an embarrassment to you having to take the same line as Gary on the matter. [John Begg:] Well I can answer the second one first. I e it would not be a problem for me to take the same line as either or any of my er opponents, or the incumbent Mr, erm you know, if they are, frankly, right. What I do think is very dangerous for a p for a candidate in any party is to flirt with the big idea of any of your opponents. And I look back to the Alliance days and Dr Owen's flirtation with elements of Flatcher of [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Flatcherism, pardon me []. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [John Begg:] I've I've managed it. Erm I knew I would, once that was one. Er of Thatcherism, er t to flirt with elements of that and completely destroy our credibility with a lot of people whose votes we wanted. he flirted with Thatcherism and i Thatcherism,, as a result, helped to grow. On the issue of a of a particular thing, in the constituency, if Mr is right then I don't have a problem disagr er agreeing with him. Whether I would be unequivocally in favour of the protestors, well I'll be guided. I don't live here, I'll talk to people that matter, yourselves, and I'll be guided. you never promise things that, you know, totally before you've seen the facts, but I expect to [LAUGHTER] be reasonable [], certainly. Hello. [speaker003:] My name's Jeff Chair Salford East. Buried in the sub-text of your speech was the hint of ambiguity about the social chapter. [John Begg:] Mm. [speaker003:] Er, you know, saying that we've firmed up the policy now, when erm I think a couple of years we were perhaps somewhere different. [John Begg:] Mm. [speaker003:] What's your explanation? Particularly to people who'd through that at you, in the campaign. [John Begg:] I I feel in the early days the the social contract wasn't particularly well known and I think our party initially felt that these things were better handled not though a proper set protocol in the Maastricht treaty. Er Mr Ashdown says er no reason to disagree with him, that he was always in favour of the things in the social contract, but he didn't want them handled in that kind of manner. He thought it was too inflexible. It turns out now that reality is coming to countries all over western Europe, and although I'm s I'm sorry to see the difficulties that our colleagues and friends in western Europe are having erm they are beginning to realize that one or two aspirations of the so social contracts may be extremely expensive. Now my own view is is that this point in time we all do have to get together and agree. And I think as time's gone on our party had just realized wit the stresses and strains of more and more right wing pressure to destroy workers rights and drive wages down. Including for example the scraping of the wages councils which comes up, I think, later this week doesn't it? Erm that the time has now come to accept that we do have to do the same things and it has to be in black and white and it has to be E E C wide. Because, let's face it, if we're all one economy it isn't a level playing field if one country is inviting in erm companies er You know, transnationals, the lot, on the promise it's cheaper to get our workers to work for you, you don't have to pay out for this. They can be sacked If it's less than two years they've been working, they can be sacked at a weeks notice or whatever it is. I mean that isn't going to create Britain as part of the E C of the Netherlands and Belgium and Germany. It's going to create erm a sort of sweat shop in the midst of the others where they'll dump off stuff that they don't want some of their own people to do or their own people won't do. So I I think time has moved on,th the pressure from erm the economic pressure and the right wing pressure has grown and i think we're now doing the right thing. I also feel there was a bit of politics being played and there always will of course, in politics.... [speaker001:] Next one, anyone? Alan? [speaker003:] Alan Erm where do you? I mean by that not [John Begg:] No. [speaker003:] I'm in favour Poland, Hungary, Romania to be brought in or are we going to remain this tight little club, which is not Europe, if it's just that little [John Begg:] Mm. [speaker003:] it's a misnomer to call it Europe [John Begg:] Mm. Mm mm. I I think the aspiration has obviously got to be that the E C can grow. Some of the things in the Maastricht treaty don't make a lot of sense and some of the things that are not controversial for example, don't make a lot of sense unless Europe does grow. If if we're going to talk about common defence and that sort of thing, and common erm aid and erm trouble shooting across Europe, it's obviously better for as many countries as possible to be within the inner ring of the E C community. I do fear though somewhat, about the whole idea of too swift growth and countries being encouraged to run before they can walk. And I I think some of the lessons from Eastern Europe are that they have tried to go from one old system to a new system at an incredibly swift pace. And like a big body on small legs,i in a away they're sort of rather wobbling and crumbling. Erm the pressures in the E C at the moment, I think, would be better handled if as nations come,en democratically, economically, erm they come into the E C, not perhaps at the right time for those that are inside, because that might be too late frankly, but but they're not pushed into the E C en bloc, too early. I think, if we're going to be realistic, there are practical dangers for that, that can put in danger erm some of the things we've just been talking about. And we all want an E C for example, with citizens' rights, with th with the social contract, erm a civilized, prosperous E C. If too many coun countries come into the E C as full members before they're ready then I'm not sure that that wouldn't, in fact, obviate some of the things that the recent legislation and the Maastricht treaty, to which we're committed, would do. So I would I would think we've got to cautious, but the aspiration's obviously, have got to be to increase the size. [speaker001:] Three minutes left. A any Of the thirty minutes Any question? Yes. [John Begg:] Good evening. [speaker003:] Erm for the er people, in general terms, feel given the er bogeyman that er we're going wholeheartedly into Europe, into this country. And and er obviously if you're going to be European properly there has to be a full cooperation in many of the aspects of life How would you answer the these bogey this bogeyman tactic of loss of sovereignty,? [John Begg:] It's a it's a very difficult problem. Because people who feel like that feel it very deeply and very sincerely. I think it can be tackled from one or two different ways. I think I think first of all it has to be pointed out that what the Maastricht treaty, or I would p perhaps wouldn't always use the word Maastricht, but what the present policies are trying to achieve is not just erm if you like, some loss of sovereignty, but some gaining of sovereignty and in subsidiarity more power for the reason in fact. So it is really a way of of getting away from just everything being in Westminster. And Everything being in Westminster scares, frankly, almost as many people at the moment as too many things being in Brussels. But the the other way of looking at it I I I think is enlightened self interest. We are Europeans. Do we want them to go ahead without us. And that is, although a negative argument, a very powerful one. And when people are asked for the alternatives as being in Europe, they tend to stumble. I mean we're not going to go back to the days of the commonwealth and relying on you know, lamb from New Zealand all the time. We are not Americans, even though I do hate the way we sometimes run around them like the little brother. And big brother's got his own wife and family now and doesn't want little brother around any more. but we still insist we've got this special relationship and er still always want to do what what what they want us to do. I y Sometimes I find that a bit embarrassing. But we're not Americans, we're not part of the ecosphere or when when when we're we're we're not part of their economic erm er area, which of course is being built on E C lines now. Their trade zone with central America and Canada. So I think we have to push the idea of what is your alternative please? So I think enlightened self interest. A realization that it gives us rights that we don't have as well as some sharing, some loss. For example I mean the one thing about the Europe that the Eastbourne electorate apparently ah understood erm was I'm sorry the Christchurch electorate understood, was a social contract. That was the one thing that got interest. If the Europeans can have it, why can't we? [speaker001:] That's exactly [John Begg:] And I [speaker001:] thirty minutes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's good, a good [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Well we now are going to change candidates. We're going to somehow, is Norman down there. Can can you get? [speaker003:] I'll I'll do it. [John Begg:] I will erm retire. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right [] [John Begg:] Hopefully not for good. [speaker003:] That's mine John. Be a bad start wouldn't it? Pardon? No [speaker001:] Oh I see, I'll leave... Thanks a lot. [John Begg:] you later. [speaker001:] [singing] []... John [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] No notes? [Frank Harasikwa:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] Right well [cough] we now have our second candi candidate, erm Frank. As you noticed we've put er the put how to pronounce it. And he tells me it's quite easy his little boy of three can pronounce it quite easily. Erm so you have you have another thirty minutes, twenty minutes or less from the candidate. Then followed by er questions, so frank to address the meeting. [Frank Harasikwa:] Thank you Mr chairman, good evening ladies and gentlemen. [cough] I intend for fifteen twenty minutes or so, not to get into the issues of policy because you've all got your own particular interests in that particular field and maybe that will come out during the course of the question and answer session. I'm more interested in developing what would be a campaign policy er during the course of tomorrow right through to early June of next year. But first a little bit of background, cos I'm sure you've all read through the the notice and details about me, but I'll just remind you about some highlights. Er I'm a thirty four year old accountant work and I work for a a pi [tape change] [speaker003:] social chapter. It is that is was always discussed in the context of cost within the business and cost to industry. [Frank Harasikwa:] Well there were two that were bandied about as a cost of national Of social chapter in this department. One was eleven billion pounds, it was toted by David Hunt, the employment secretary. When asked how he came up with this figure he couldn't quite s remember and his department didn't know, so if you put that to one side. Michael Forsyth came up with fourteen billion. Said this is the cost to British industry. In fact the costs were only two billion, in reality. The other twelve was a figure that relating to training. And it needs a government like ours to feel that in training is a cost. They don't realize it's an investment in our economy, in individuals and developing erm our ability to create wealth, so twelve billion cost in their mind, I could tell you from someone who's directly involved in a s er obtained training for my er staff members at work. I see it as an investment in them and the company reaps the reward.... [speaker003:] You were talking West. Erm you were talking about creating a high profile, for example as a candidate, Erm can you tell us how you see the members form the constituencies round here, helping you to obtain this high profile? What would you be looking for us to do to help you as the candidate if you win? [Frank Harasikwa:] Well there are various ways. I think the most immediate one in that's it's on the control of the party, are those er wards that have a focus leaflet. Clearly that goes through many doors throughout the er the constituency, and it is widely read, people look forward to it. Er when you canvass, Oh you're from focus, and they come out with those focus speak, so Frank, in the leaflet, oh he's one of those, he's he's councillor so-and-so's friend, we'll be able to vote for him. Apart from that it's the regular contact, I think, with local constituency and ward members across the whole of greater Manchester West. I will take it upon myself, in terms of alerting the press as to what er how I would project er my view. But I would want a constant dialogue, through various means of communication, to learn about what is going on throughout the whole constituency. Er I've been able just this week to set up a little er programme at er at work whereby er I have a list of all the newspapers and T Vs and radio stations on a file, and I can tap in a press release, press the button and it would fax them all one after the other, to the various interested bodies. So I would be able to respond from information received one evening, be able to produce the press release, press a button and hopefully it will go down the line if the technology will allow that. But this is how I see er establishing that profile, it's principally through the press and the media.... [speaker003:] I'm not asking the same question. [LAUGHTER] Geoffrey, er do you see the Manchester Evening News as a problem? [LAUGHTER] [Frank Harasikwa:] Erm, well as you probably know Bolton, Boltonian, may be regarded as rather parochial but erm we've always been a little suspicious about Manchester and there probably aren't very many Boltonians you take the Manchester Evening News regularly because we have our own Bolton Evening News. I get it from time to time. I know that the Manchester Evening News from our From the Bolton point of view has always Has appeared to be, rather than have always been, appear to want to have stories. Cos journalists in general, are a of what be described as a lazy breed, but they've got tremendous demands on their time. So be able to produce er a press release of some description, or some information, that is reasonably literate, then, and it's reasonable pertinent to the area that they're th associated with, then they may lift a good deal of it, perhaps not all of it, and plop it into the newspaper. If you're suggesting, and I c I wouldn't argue with you cos I [LAUGHTER] really wouldn't know []. If you're suggesting that the Manchester Evening News are proactively against the Liberal Democrats or that they would obstruct erm us in getting a fair crack of the whip, you may well be true, but I think we've got that obstacle overcome, perhaps, in every stage. Because we're not one of the two main parties. We have to be more creative, perhaps in the er press releases we put out, not churn one out every single day, that would be nonsensical, but whatever we do churn out, as a press release, it's got to be relevant, and they will find interesting.... [speaker003:] Erm Erm [cough] erm I wonder if you could just explain to us as to Manchester public in general, benefits of subsidiarity [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's a dirty one. [Frank Harasikwa:] It is rather. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank Harasikwa:] Well we're all, I think, federalists and believe that power should cascade from the top to that level of decision making best able to take the decision. Erm we can take, as an issue,unemploy employment policy. Now is it appropriate for central government to say this policy for unem for employment should apply across the whole country. I would suggest it's not. At a regional level there are individuals, politicians, who know that here we've got a declining mining industry. How do you deal with that in those communities. You need people at regional level and at that village level, to advise and suggest how money being allocated for that communities benefit, can be best spent. So subsidiarity at the end of the day, is to ensure that that big brother Brussels isn't taking power away from us. That would be look at it, the wrong end of the telescope effectively. It is power that is going to ensure go down to that level of decision making, to those people who know the problems best and would be able to deliver the right solutions.... [speaker003:] northwest. One gets the impression that two gentlemen concerned are very enthusiastic Europeans, seem to be looking inwardly at Europe. One wonders if, you know, the situation, close to us, Bosnia and the other countries that are suffering in the rest of the world, would occupy their thoughts. [Frank Harasikwa:] Erm it would be extremely difficult t for them not to occupy our thoughts, I'm not sure whether your question is is inviting me to consider what the European Community should be doing in the context of Bosnia. Well I think no greater no other individual but Paddy Ashdown has been providing a healthy lead, but sadly it's one where he's been citing a a an approach to Bosnia one month. The following month the government say oh we can't possibly do that, and four or five months later they hap they happen to do it. The issue, as far as I can see, and I was told, when I was growing it up in school, about the holocaust and that we must ensure that everybody remembers about the holocaust in Germany, and that it should never ever be allowed to happen again. And that sad fact of the matter is, it is happening again, throughout the whole of Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia. It is my contention that we don't sit back and simply allow for peace to develop, and we go and keep that peace. I think there is a moral obligation on the E C, not necessarily the Americans because it is a European problem, to intervene at least to the extent of ensuring protection for ordinary civilians and ensuring that they get food and medical s provision. Now the political can not be imposed. But until such time as that political solution is arrived at, we have to ensure the protection of the people in that particular area of Europe.... [speaker003:] More or less what I asked personal point of view that er one is afraid that Europe, as it is, is rather limited. The E C C rather inward looking Even Turkey is knocking on the door, what are your Poland, Hungary, Romania knocking on the door and coming in. Or is Europe just west Europe? [Frank Harasikwa:] No Europe isn't just western Europe but I I have personal doubts about the pace of enlarging things. Okay we're taking four new members in in the new year. But if you're going to talk about countries like Turkey, for example, one of the provisions about membership is that there is no dispute as to boundaries, that there are no conflicts on your border, that you have a good humans right re human rights record. I'm afraid Turkey falls foul of probably at least two of those. Si Yes yes. [speaker003:] I've just [Frank Harasikwa:] That's right. In terms of the other eastern bloc countries, what you have to say is what is the long terms aspiration and goal of the E C? I see it as having, through a united Europe, a united economy. We're already seeing the strains on Eur European economic mo er union and E R M, with the twelve nations we have, I don't think it'll get any better or worse with the other four coming in. But you're going to get a wider latitude and difference of i of of strength of economy by bringing in the eastern bloc in the short term. Maybe in ten, fifteen years the situation may change, but I don't think enlargement for enlargement's sake is going to be of benefit to the E C. We have a longer term view, I think, in mind. And that by all means, take them in in due course, but it's when they can fit into the economic jigsaw that we've actually created.... [speaker001:] Well come on, we've another eight minutes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes yes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Erm Bob Worsley. Erm could could we have your views please er about erm transport policies, more particularly motorways in the Greater Manchester West er area. Erm the existing er Euro MP has been quite active in supporting objections to the Greater Manchester northern relief. Er would you support the objectors and would be an embarrassment to you having to s to sing the same tune as Gary? [speaker001:] councillor. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank Harasikwa:] I have no ob no problems in actually singing the same tune as Gary what so ever. there are bound to be occasions and er it's happened a few occasions during my political life, where you do er find agreement with people of of various parties. Because not everything was going to be compartmentalized as an issue exclusively for the liberals or the socialists or the conservatives, so there's going to be a degree of cross party support on certain issues, and this indeed could be one of them. In terms of the general transport policy, we have go to address the issue of the motor car. Are we going to allow it to determine our policy or is our policy going to determine the car? And I think it's going to have to be the latter, we are going to have to decide, and the M twenty five enlargement is the critical debate at the moment. Are we going to go for fourteen lane high way, or motorway, on the M twenty five, cos if you do, all the roads that lead from it are going to have to be fourteen lane. I think we've got to draw the line and say there is going to be a cost to our econ our ecology, if we allow it to run in the way the government have in mind. We have to control it and those who nee or use the car, are going to have to pay the price of using that car. By putting a premium on the use of it, then presumably, there are going to be fewer people who are going to use it over a period of time. To actually just sit back on the hands, as the government are doing, is not a policy, it's an abdication of responsibility. [speaker003:] Can you tell us how you specifically in the northwest, about this Europe in this area, what benefits are going to [Frank Harasikwa:] Well they've they've obviously varied and most of them are economic based. At the moment we don't Relating to the transport issue, we haven't yet a link from the northwest down through to the chunnel in to into the rest of Europe. To a certain extent we're isolated up here. I would see through a more coactive involvement in Europe, and establishing not just the physical link of the chunnel but expanding it right up to the northwest, a line that goes right the way through, that there is a material benefit to this area, from that connection. Erm by insuring that direct line, and that we have training facilities here which are part of the social contract, and that we have er investment, through regional investment, in this particular area, then we can create jobs that suit the skills that we've er made available to the general population, and that we got through that rail link a direct line access to all the markets within Europe, which is going to expand, er not withstanding my objections, from the twelve to the sixteen and right the way through to to Russia.... [speaker003:] er as a Euro candidate it would take a colossal amount of time. I'm wondering how you'll manage to fit it in with your work and family matters, er all the time that you'll need to do this, [Frank Harasikwa:] Well i think we've all got to make various allowances in terms of various commitments. If you were to say would you compromise your family and work to their detriment, then no I wouldn't. Anybody who would to s Any s Anybody saying anything to the contrary i would very much suspect their their motives. Er, but clearly I I will commit whatever time I have available, and I shall make as much time as available, I have the support of Ross, my wife, this is all fully discussed before I even went through the panelling process. There's no point in going this far unless you have the family behind you. And I have a very strong extended family as you might expect of a half Italian, mother always cooking pasta and what have you at home. Very rarely do I eat at home. Erm [LAUGHTER] so I I'm confident that the job that's there to be done, in Greater Manchester West, I will be able to do er to my satisfaction, hopefully to the party's as well.... [speaker001:] Three minutes left. Little question. Oh right at the back there. [speaker003:] Alan What do you think is the biggest single problem that's er is taking up time in without giving? I look at this from a point of view electioneering. What is the biggest single problem taking up? [Frank Harasikwa:] I suppose it depends on the family but trying to envisage an average family, on thing that would immediately come to mind erm is probably security. Security in the context, not just of law and order, but security in terms of can they be sure that they have a job next month, in six months time. And part of the reason why we're not really out of the recession, is that people are not willing to commit themselves to any further expenditure because they're not quite sure in six months or twelve months time, as to whether they're going to have anything in the way of a job. So it's that lack of security, lack of confidence about the future, and they need to be ins assured that there is, hopefully, a light at the end of the tunnel. And the Liberal Democrats can identify that point of light, enlarge on it and make life, hopefully, less insecure. [speaker001:] Well I think l i You've another minute if you want to say anything, but er [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Anybody's got a very quickie that's, you know a yes or no, I mean? [speaker003:] Oh. In view of your connection with Italy, would you be able, conscientiously, to push the idea of proportional representation? [LAUGHTER] [Frank Harasikwa:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yes. [Frank Harasikwa:] No problem whatsoever because even their current s The new system they've adopted allows for P R for at least a quarter of the MPs that are being returned. You see the Italians when they vote in that referendum, I've discussed it with quite a few cousins at the time, it wasn't they're exactly [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank Harasikwa:] against P R, they're just against the whole system. It was corrupt from top to bottom, and they were s They knew that it was going on. I know uncles who've given salamis and bo bottles to the teach to give their sons and daughters a good report so that they can get a place in university. Graft and corruption goes o throughout Italy, but it's the extent of it and who was involved in it up to the Prime Minister that was the problem, but no I have no problems, John I know you're trying to get on. Erm [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No no [Frank Harasikwa:] I have no problem You were shuffling. So I have no problem what so ever er with advocating P R within Europe, in spite of my er Italian background. [speaker001:] Right that's it. Thank you, thank you very much. [speaker003:] [clapping] I can't help but think, chairman, in my career I was never given a bottle of whisky to help with the [speaker001:] No I've never got anything ei [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] That's right. [speaker001:] I've now got the job Oh i think you have to go out. [Frank Harasikwa:] Oh right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I've now got the job of erm First of all, all on your er seats were little slips asking if you'd like commit money. but now id the the time to vote. And the... the biscuit box is for your votes and the one with the black label on is is for your money or your commitment or your promises. So don't anybody say we're all crackers, Thank you.... [speaker003:] It's not for that it's for [speaker001:] Ooh yes. Yes thank you. [speaker003:] [break in recording] [speaker001:] Neil did. If it if it had been a tie we would have tossed a coin. Pardon? You did indeed Norman and I'd never thought of it, but there we are. S so we have a result and I won't sit down on empty [Neil Derbyshire:] So there you are John, there you are. Er can i just say er before erm I announce the result, I whispered to Frank there in announcing the result I didn't know I couldn't pronounce his name so I has to check it. Erm, but Greater Manchester West is the first erm constituency to select, and for us as a regional party, er the procedures which you have adopted erm have been a model if you like, and the way John and his team have conducted the election, er deserve our praise and thanks, [speaker003:] Hear hear. [Neil Derbyshire:] and yours because he has been he has been diligent in the extreme, in keeping me informed and in the way he and Bob and Norman, I'm sorry I don't know the rest of the team, I don't know the other five erm [speaker001:] Chris. [Neil Derbyshire:] But the way in which was the way in which that group have conducted this election, [cough] i i i is, as far as we're concerned, is a model. Er Mary I think has gone, has she gone? No you Ma M M We we had a candidate's committee last night, I'm just doing this so you you keep you on your toes until we get to the result, you know. Erm [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil Derbyshire:] we had er we had a candidate's committee meeting last night, in which we were concerned that a number of the other constituencies throughout the northwest, who were not as far progressed as erm er as Greater Manchester West, and we took it upon ourselves to erm When appointing returning officers to those constituencies, to recommend to those returning officers that the people guiding Manchester Central, Merseyside East, Merseyside West, whoever they may be, contact John er for advice on how to how to run the er how to run the election. Cos it really has been extremely well managed, extremely well run, er not by me I've just received the ballot papers. Er the work has been done by John er Norman, Bob and the team. And to th for for them we're extremely er I I I I give my regards and er the regional party is grateful for their work. Erm [cough] in counting the ballot papers erm there was a clear winner, er both on the postal ballot re votes received, and the erm erm erm vote this evening. Er and that winner was Frank, I got it wrong anyway. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Neil Derbyshire:] so congratulations Frank, and for er from my point of view as regional vice chairman, I would like to also thank John, er for for taking part in this process, it's very important. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Neil Derbyshire:] And you clearly had an extremely good choice tonight, and a real choice. [speaker003:] Hear hear. [clapping] [speaker001:] Yes er I'd like to thank everybody for coming along, and I've I've said to John, Oop. I said that if he wins [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] If he wishes er a reference I'd be prepared to give him one any time. [speaker003:] Hear hear. [speaker001:] I mean I I think he put up a very good show and er I know it's very disappointing to lose, isn't it? [LAUGHTER] Most of Lot of us have lost a lot of times, but So I thank you again. I just er say one thing, er people accuse me of being a money mad er but erm I m [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] But i must say we're now the great chance, one of the Great chances that we have next June, in my mind, is the Post Office will put the let er Our pamphlets through every letter box in eight constituencies, [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well I'd think they'd have to be good, they er er at Bolton at the General Election, they put Bolton Southeast through a lot of Bolton West and Northeast but never mind. And into Radcliffe, you got some of b b Message was taken into Berry South [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] with our Dennis on it. Well done Dennis. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And er but we need the money to put the pamphlets through all those letter box. Three hundred thousand, total three hundred thousand. [speaker003:] A penny each. [speaker001:] We've had a cu We've had a first time they've erm quote at two thousand one hundred and seventy six pounds. That's point seven three two five one or something like that. But er [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] They're pamphlets so, that's that is the next target. [LAUGHTER] Er I'd like to thank now. They've they've sent, we have a bank account, the first thing we did was to o This is the steering committee. Open a bank account. And er when I went along to certain banks, they were asking as much as ninety seven pence a transaction. So that means if Mrs Old Mrs brown down the road gives us a pound, we'd get a whole thruppence. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er if we put it in. So erm the the task is to er is to get the money er and to be able to put one pound er it's it's to everybody's benefit, isn't it? It's it's part of the high profile that will er will You know you don't have to walk. We n we will need folders and counters to put them all in piles, yes the lady volunteered now, take her name. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er so thank you for coming and don't forget the candidates and and Thank John personally for for for being such a very good er candidate in in this erm hustings, er but don't leave the candidates to to You must fee The people in Salford and Eccles and in er Worsley, who get the Manchester Evening News, [LAUGHTER] Er It's it's that they they put lo there's local issues isn't there? Y I mean local Manchester Evening News issues that they put out in they put out where where we live in Kearsley, there's a lot of people in Kearsley buy the Manchester And er we've got to feed the candidate with all these things so that it gets into the into the Your local newspaper, the local free paper goes out in every area, you must get the name in as from tomorrow. And he said it, I heard him say, as from tomorrow Give them your phone number Frank. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You'd better have his mother's as well. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Cos that's where he'll Up to about seven o'clock. So thank you for coming. And thank John for being such a good er candidate. And erm Oh yes er tt Th there's a Bye-election so would. [speaker003:] Yeah. Erm I had a phone call just before I came out, area area party, so this' ll come It's about actually in the ward which we narrowly missed getting last time just by erm not even a very strong The by election is on September twenty third and we want leafleters this weekend, so if anybody is able to go on leafleting, which is right between [LAUGHTER] [] It's er I've got the phone number for Forgot the surname but she works with Bob, so if you ring up and say this Is that Linda who works with Bob. It's. Ad she wants at least sixteen leafleters this weekends. [speaker001:] Right. Well I suppose the way to stop is to thank you for your your attendance and declare the meeting closed. Thank you very much. [speaker003:] Very good. Well done John. [clapping] [tape change]

[speaker001:] I expect that everyone came to church here, this evening because they knew that it was a communion Sunday, and the sacrament of Holy Communion would be celebrated here this evening. But there are many of you here also because this is start of the evening services for the winter. And you're most likely, here not just for communion but because it's your custom to come to the six thirty service. I do very much hope that I can persuade those of you who have just come for communion, to join with us regularly at this service in the weeks that lie ahead. Now please don't think that I'm saying this for the benefit of somebody else. If the evening service is to remain a strong service of Christian witness then it needs you, not just the Ministers and the organist and the choir. It needs you. And I hope that you will commit yourself to come regularly. Next Sunday at this time we're going to be having a a service of rededication for the leaders of our organizations. And rededication for every individual that cares to come along. For the next few months Mr and I are going to home in on a theme for these services. And the theme will be aspects of Christian living. And we're going to take some perfectly ordinary facets of life and try to address them in terms of what they should mean to the Christian believer. How we should respond to them. We're going to be talking about things like, the Christian and sin, the Christian and responsibility. things like our salvation, our failures, love. topics like that. Tonight then it's a communion thanksgiving service, but let me just spend a few minutes just sketching a little background on some of life's challenges. the challenges which Jesus himself presents to Christians, and the challenges which life presents in a general sense. In the gospel of Saint Matthew tonight we read, in chapter sixteen at versus twenty four and twenty five, these words. [reading] Jesus told his disciples, if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it. And who ever loses his life for my sake, will find it. [] Now there's a challenge, if ever there was one. Jesus Christ never ever calls people to the little things of life. Jesus Christ was big himself, he came into the world to do big things and he calls us to do big things. But there's something in even the very best of us which would really prefer to take the easy way out, if that's at all possible. But Jesus so often pints the hard way, and challenges us to follow him, through that hard way. And so now other course, needless to say, is worthy of the real Christian. It is an attractive thing to follow Jesus Christ, but it's no bed of roses. His call is perhaps the hardest but it's also the highest. Now life's full of challenges, the business person on this world, is challenge to work hard and to make wealth. Wealth, sometimes for himself. Wealth, very often on behalf of others. The professional person is challenged to serve well and to make a name for himself or herself. All sorts of challenges, but life's biggest challenge is the challenge that Jesus Christ makes to the Christian. So what are the challenges of Jesus Christ?... Well one of them is to show that there is something different about us. To show that we do live distinctive lives, and that we try sincerely, however imperfectly, but try sincerely to refrain from the seamier side of life, and to concentrate on everything that's wholesome. A good example of that that I read about it was the naturalist who was making a study of snakes. And he took a poisonous viper and forced its mouth open, and inserted a glass under its fangs and drew out a couple of drops of deadly poison. And when the poison was put under the microscope it seemed to contain the most beautiful colours of the rainbow. A most attractive thing, and yet it was a deadly poison.... Sinfulness in life can been seen like that too. It looks So often it looks beautiful and it looks innocent, and people are attracted to it, Christians also.... And falling before temptation it's easy to let yourself slide down into things that can be very hurtful. Hurtful to ourselves and hurtful to Christ. And Jesus says Come out from among these things, come out from among them. And some honest Christian people do and some find it very hard to do.... And those who find it hard to reject a sinful situation could often argue that they're above it and no way is it hurting them. And maybe that's the case, or appear to be the case but it can be hurting the cause of Christ. So one of the challenges t is to be ale to show that there is something different about those of us who are Christians. Something that other people can see, something that other people like in us. Something that other people can be encouraged to live up to. Show Jesus Christ by your personal example. And following on from that there's the challenge of being faithful to Jesus throughout life. Not just when we find it suitable. Someone once asked a shepherd whether his sheep would follow a stranger, and he said. When they're well they won't do that. they won't follow a stranger, but when they're sick they'll follow anyone. Now if you sort of turn that round there's a lot in it as it applies to Christians. When things are going well there doesn't seem quite the same need to be faithful. Indeed even if you are faithful to the gospel that's the time that you often go off on your own and experiment with this and that, different type of Church, different type of fellowship, something that's perhaps not particularly Christ centred at all. But it's different when you're up against it, different when you're spiritually sick. The history of the whole of the Church shows that having been full to overflowing in times of crisis, in times of war for example. But in peace time, people drift away. but Jesus Christ calls his people to be faithful all the time, throughout life. Not just when it suits. I wonder whether Christ would not rather go to Calvary again than to suffer the unfaithfulness of some of his friends. Surely the cross didn't hurt him as much as our unfaithfulness can. And following from that there's the challenge connected with seeking Jesus, constantly seeking Jesus. How do we seek Him? We seek him in prayer. Over and over again Jesus says, you pray and I will answer. Listen to Saint Matthew's gospel again. [reading] Ask and it shall be given, seek and you'll find, knock and it will be opened. For every one who asks, receives. He that seeks, finds, to him that knocks it will be opened. [] Well we read about prayer and we know about its power but you know we often don't avail ourselves off it and yet it's plainly written. Let me give you a biblical example. Don't know if you remember in the Old Testament, the book of genesis. A narrative about Jacob and Esau. Jacob had not seen Esau since he had cheated him out of his birthright, twenty years previously. And he knew that Esau hated him, and he was afraid to meet him. And because he was afraid to meet him, Jacob spent the night before meeting him in prayer. And that is like an awful lot of us. We wait until trouble comes, until trouble is staring us in the face, before we really feel the need of God, and pray. Jesus Christ challenges us, okay. Then why should we accept his challenges? Why not just ignore them? Well we should accept them for the sake of our own spiritual growth for one thing. It's a great inner joy to feel that you're growing in grace. At the end of a year it's good to look back and to feel that you have made some progress in your spiritual life. there are many people and probably a few of you here tonight, who have been members of the Church for a long time. And although you've grown physically, grown mentally, grown possibly financially. Don't feel that you've grown all that much spiritually. You feel perhaps you don't know very much more about the Bible than you did, say, ten years ago. Well perhaps this is a good time just to take stock and to say I know that I'm not all that I should be and all that I ought to be, but by this time next year I'm going to be a bit better than I am just now, in spiritual terms. I'm going to grow spiritually.... So we can accept that challenge. We can accept Christ's challenge for the sake of our own spiritual growth. And we should accept it also for the sake of our sinful world. For the sake of those round about us who don't have whatever commitment we have. Just remember that the world is looking at we Christians. The world is looking at us. I was reading an article the other day in a theological journal about the Church in Korea, an dhow it was growing, and how people were taking their faith seriously. And because they were prepared to go out and speak about their faith people were being converted from Buddhism to Christianity in their thousands. If our faith is just a tiny part of us then nobody is going to notice. But if we act as if we belong to Jesus Christ then we shall be seen to have that plus and others will be attracted to Jesus Christ through us. I was speaking a minute ago about Jacob and Esau. You remember the time when Jacob wrestled all night with the angel of the Lord. The angel struck Jacob on the thigh and Jacob limped for the rest of his life. that experience changed him in every way. Christians have had an experience with Christ. Let us hope that it manifests itself through some outward show. As a Christian do you feel that you've been changed? Can others see Jesus Christ in you? Or in me for that matter? I'm not sure how many people are led to Jesus Christ through sermons. I'm sure that feeding people the word regularly is a great help. It encourages our spiritual growth but the initial step, the initial step which people make is generally as a resump result of something much more simple, much more basic. It's often more an example of a good life or a special kindness. What we refer to as a good Christian action. My friends, let's just remember this night that as we've shared bread and wine together, we've reaffirmed that Jesus Christ gave his life so that we might live. For his sake then let us give of our best, in every sense of that term. Let us accept his challenge, let us be better Christians, and let us begin it now. [break in recording] You find the text this morning in Saint Matthew, chapter seventeen, versus twenty and twenty one. [reading] For truly I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to their at it will move. And nothing will be impossible to you. []... Last Sunday you may remember I held up something at the start of the service, and it was my mail from the previous day and we homed in on one buff letter which had H M inspector of taxes in it. Can you see what I'm holding up in my and this morning?... No of course of you can't because I've got nothing in it. And even if I did have and had a mustard seed here, you still wouldn't be able to see it for a mustard seed is no bigger than a pin head. It's not quite the smallest of all the seeds, but nevertheless it's small enough to make a proverbial point like tall as a house, or small as a mouse, small as a grain of mustard seed.... And as we heard this morning Jesus told us a parable about a mustard seed, although it's small it grows into quite a large shrub. One with a height of anywhere between six and ten feet. Almost a tree in fact. It's big enough for birds to come and make their nests in it. And Jesus said that God's dominion, the rule of Heaven, is something like a mustard seed which starts out tiny and ends up big. And Jesus also used the example of the mustard seed to talk about faith. Jesus, Saint Peter and James and John had just been on the mountain top at the site of the transfiguration, a high point in the gospel story, and right on the heels of that they descended into the valley below and there was a crowd with Jesus' others disciples. And out of the crowd came this man who knelt before Jesus and pleaded for mercy for his son, an epileptic, who suffered terribly, was a danger to himself and to others. And the disciples had apparently been unable to help the boy. A seemingly exasperated Jesus says, Oh faithless and perverse generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me. And then rebuking the demon who's presence is assumed to afflict the epelo epileptic Jesus accomplished this healing. And so the stage is set, and the disciples came to Jesus privately, asking why they couldn't cast it out? Why could they not heal the boy? Well I supposed we'd all like to know the answer to that. Jesus said simply that they failed because they had little faith. Now I've always taken that to mean that if they had big faith, they would have been alright. They should have had greater confidence in their power to heal. And I've always heard what Jesus goes on to say in the context of that understanding of the text. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you'll say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it'll move, and nothing'll be impossible. [155 1] And the way that the text is translated I've always supposed that Jesus must have thought that mustard seeds had a lot of faith. Something that starts out so tiny must have a lot of faith to believe that it can become something big. And we're supposed to have faith like that, faith that can accomplish something big. Now matter how small our beginnings. We should even be able to move mountains if we have enough faith. Well there's only one thing wrong with that interpretation of the text. I don't know about you but I have a hard time believing that. I can't believe that if you have enough faith you can move a mountain from here to there. Certainly not a literal mountain. And probably not a figurative mountain either. Now there are some people who have doubtless believed that they an do such grand things, but for the most part they've failed. I find it hard to believe that all you need is a big faith for mountains to be moved. And then when I was reading the text really carefully, I came to the conclusion that that's not really what Jesus is saying. the problem with Jesus' disciples and the point here is that it's our problem as well, is not that we lack a big faith. The problem is that we lack virtually any faith. The problem is a lack of virtually any faith at all. What we need is not enormous confidence that we can move mountains as if they were molehills. What we need is not that grandiose. What the text says is that we are to have faith as a grain of mustard seed. That's what we're to have. That's the size we're to have, faith the size of a mustard seed. Jesus is calling his disciples to have a little faith. Faith as big as this minuscule mustard seed that you can't see. And the point of his saying seems to be that with the littlest of faith, the great tasks can be accomplished. That's what the kingdom of heaven, God's dominion over the world is really like. From the very smallest can come something great. This simile of the mustard seed is not to call us to some great Cecil B Demille-like ambition. It doesn't require us to believe that anything can and will happen if we believe big enough and hard enough. It's simply calling us to have a little faith. Faith no bigger than a mustard seed. And it assures us than even with minimal faith, God's purposes will be accomplished beyond all that we can believe. Now you see in our day and generation, we don't need to be reminded of the importance of little things. the more we learn about the atom, the more we're astonished at its complexity and its unseen power. The more complex and ambitious our technology, the more we realize the billion pound difference that there can be in a millimetre. The further we research into the intricacies of the human genes, the closer we come to the possibility of refashioning human biological existence. The knowledge that we now have about fertilization and development of the human ovum speaks to us of the miracle of our existence. and as we know can greatly complicate the moral and ethical dilemmas of human sexuality and procreation and abortion. We all know, perhaps too well, the great consequences that flow nowadays from very very little things.... None the less, in the realm of human events, the teaching of Jesus still goes against our conventional suppositions, because we all assume that big outcomes need big inputs. the logic of human effort, would say that to accomplish great things for God, we've got to have great faith. But when Jesus says, faith the size of a mustard seed will do, then we have our doubts. Someone once said more people are cheated by believing nothing than by believing too much. And I think Jesus would probably agree, believing nothing gets us no where, we can do nothing without faith. Faith we're told, is the antiseptic of the soul. Now that's an expression worth remembering. Faith is the antiseptic of the soul. Someone without faith has no prospect, no promise of salvation, no hope of life to come. Future is closed. But that does not follow that with a great big faith we can anything. Jesus teaching is not so much about our faith, it's really about God's power. It's not the amount of faith that we can muster. What Go what Jesus is saying is don't cut God out. Give God the slightest opportunity, open yourselves to the spirit, even to the smallest degree, and you'll be amazed what can happen. If you're open to the divine power, even just a little bit. That's enough for God to go to work in you. That's the miracle of the kingdom of heaven, God will take it from there. So we mustn't take ourselves too seriously in this. Jesus' talk about moving mountains maybe provided a note of humour. It's a ca case of gross exaggeration in order to make a point, and parables are full of that. The point is that we will never know what God can do with us until we've ventured forward with a little faith. We're probably not the people that we think we are. People of modest faith but not enough for the really big challenges of life. i think Jesus is saying, don't kid yourself, you've hardly got any faith at all. We sceptics when it comes to healing the world's infirmities and redeeming its great sins. Far from being only slightly shy of great faith we're almost completely unpractised in the art of letting God be God. And of entrusting ourselves in to the power of his mercy. How did you get where you are today? What started you off, say on the track of your present work? If you're married, what are the circumstances under which you and your spouse met? Possibly you can't remember. Many of the young couples that come here to see about their weddings, when asked, admit that their relationship had a pretty unspectacular beginning. Most didn't start out with plans to get married. Most of us didn't begin our education or our first job with plans to do what we're actually doing today. Most of us have lived long enough to know that you can't say with any certainty, where you might be in the future. And part of the mystery of our existence, is if they we If we give ourselves in faith to God, even in the small and inauspicious ways, the consequences of doing that might be enormous. Jesus' disciples, with their little faith, were soon to become a small Jewish sect. Their leader, whose own origins were inauspicious humanly speaking, was going to die a pretty ignoble death, but those who had gathered around him subsequently discovered that there were depths to experience and power that words can hardly explain. That little faith went on to go right round the world and it's here today. Faith, my friends, is the prospect that all our relationships can be transformed, it's openness towards a movement of grace, a path to discover just how little life is of our own making and how much of it comes from a gift which is not our own. If we would have faith only the size of a mustard seed, how our lives would be enhanced. many of the tensions would be resolved, many of the disharmonies dissolved. Our world would be a different place. because if we did that, we would be much more fully in the hands of God. Would we not? So have faith as a grain of mustard seed, amen. [break in recording] There are two texts for the sermon this morning which, as you know, is on God, the Holy Spirit. Since we've been thinking these past few weeks about what Christians believe, the first text would be in the er skeleton outline that we've been taking in the Apostles' creed, which says I believe in the Holy Ghost. You'd find that in hymn five four six. I believe in the Holy Ghost. The other text would be Saint John chapter three, verse eight. The last verse that we read. [reading] The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit. [] Now one of these texts speaks about the Holy Ghost and the other one speaks about the Holy Spirit. Perhaps that we should get rid of all the wrong associations with the word ghost, which no longer means what it meant, for example, when the apostles' creed was first translated into English. Spirit is much more in the language of today. God the Holy Spirit that means God's energy or God's power present with us now. And energy's a strange thing because you can't see it as such. You can only see its results. It's been interesting these past few days to watch the energy of the sun through the effect that it's had on the snow. Each time I come out of the onto I'm impressed by the fact that the snow has been much more pronounced on our side of the road than on the other, which has cleared much more quickly. And of course it's heat of the sun which strikes the other side but which misses our side. And if you look at the roofs of a row of houses, a few days after any snow fall, some roofs are free of snow quite quickly, and some take much longer, even although there's no sun. And the roofs that keep the snow for along time, do so either because the house is unoccupied or it's pretty cold inside, or it's got a well insulated loft. In other words there's not much heat rising from the living area. But for the others heat rises through the roof and enables the snow to melt. You can't see the warmth that causes that to happen, you can only see the result of it. And the result is snow coming off the roof. In other words you can't see the power, you can only see the result of the power. The Holy Spirit, the power of God. God's power resent with us in the here and now, we can't see it but we can feel it. We can see though the result of it. This word spirit appears in the very first verse of the Bible, where it states that the Earth was without form and void. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And that's the Bible referring to the beginning of life, or the movement and the agent of God's activity is the spirit. And the Hebrew word for spirit is Gruak and that really has two meanings. And the first meaning is quite simply, the wind. And that's quite helpful. At some time or another most of us will have sat beside the shore of a loch when there's complete calm and not a breath of air. And you know, you look at the water and you see in the water a perfect reflection of what there is above. And then, almost imperceptibly, the calm surface become ruffled and the clear images blurred, and it becomes colder. And it does that because a wind has sprung up, you can't see it but you can observe its effect. And that illustration offers the same image of an invisible power, and with this we can begin to see the spirit of God at work in the world. The Hebrew word Gruak And the other idea of that word is breath, and that's not really too different. God formed man from the dust of the ground, says the book of Genesis, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. The Old Testament idea of the spirit of God breathing into human beings something of his own life, or sometimes it's something giving a extra quality of living. Indeed sometimes this spirit of God comes to specific people to endow them for a particular task. For example it might perhaps enable a prophet to speak out fearlessly in god's name. In that and in other ways, it's the unseen agency of God's activity. And in the New Testament, the word for the spirit there is the Greek, Pneuma P N E U M A, Pneuma. And that has the same two meanings really, wind and breath. And from that word comes pneumatic,, which simply refers to a pressure of air. From that word too comes pneumonia, an infection which we can get in our human breathing apparatus. Holy Spirit, the agent of God's activity. As i mentioned a couple of Sundays ago, the spirit is creatively active at the conception of Jesus. Conceived by the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit. And this spirit continues with Jesus thereafter, it descended on him at baptism, it drove him out into the wilderness to be tempted and so on. The spirit is the agent of God's activity. I believe in the Holy Spirit. God in three person, father son and Holy Spirit, and yet one god. Baptism, for example, is to be in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. And the benediction at the end of every service, speaks of benefits from father, son and Holy Spirit. The third person of the trinity. the Holy Spirit ranks equally along side the other two. Not subordinate in any way, God's presence with us now. Professor James, a former professor of Church history at the university of Aberdeen, has a little story which goes like this. he says two men are looking at a sunset, one of them is awed and humbled by the glory of the fiery clouds, and his heart is lifted up to God in gratitude and wonder. The other one glances at the sunset and remarks, Ha, it looks like being a wet day tomorrow. A revelation of beauty has entered into the one person, but not the other. Late afternoon yesterday, my family and I were going up to Dunkil to visit the Bible class who [break in recording] About a dozen deer and one or two stags high on the hill. Shortly after that we rounded a bend and there was sheet ice on the bend, and I felt the car beginning to slip away from me. When we reached Dunkil we could have done two things, we could have said to the Bible class, We had a marvellous journey up and told them all about the glory of God as we saw him in the mountains, or we could have said, We almost had an accident on our way up here. Again it depends on how you look at it. The same with Jesus, many people looked at Jesus and saw a village joiner, or saw a wandering preacher, or saw a wonder working doctor, or a political adventurer. But a few looked at him and saw God. The revelation was there but not everybody had eyes to see it. The revelation remained external, it remained outside the hearts of the majority of the people. But it did enter the hearts of some. And where it did, these people became the power of God unto salvation. And the power which set this realization in motion is the Holy Spirit. It is the task of the Holy Spirit to take the revelation God as given to us through Jesus Christ, and to bring it home to us step by step, as we're able to grasp it. the spirit points us to Christ and reveals what is in Christ. And what is revealed in Christ is the mystery of God. the God who is above us as creator and father, the God who is beside us as Christ our brother, the God who is within us as God the Holy Spirit. It's the one true God who confronts us successively in each of these three persons, he who knows Christ knows the father also, and he who has the spirit has the father and the son as well. [reading] Breathe on me breath of God, fill me with life anew, that I may love what thou dost love, and do what thou wouldst do. [] Some of you here, I'm sure, will have had the opportunity of visiting Niagara Falls. And if you've ever been there and taken the trip on the little boat which takes you right in to the base of the falls themselves, you'll have seen that there's a hydro electric station which takes power from the water at night, when some of the force is diverted, and instead of the water going over the falls it goes through the hydro electric station. And power which is generated there goes to heat and light the city of Niagara, and some of it goes to cook the dinners in the city of Toronto, and some of it heats the homes in the city of Buffalo. And in years gone by, I understand that some of it was used to electrocute the criminals. And the whole reason for these falls is that Lake Ontario is a hundred and sixty nine feet below Lake Erie. if both of them were on the same level there would be no falls, there would be no power. It's something for us all to have power, power from behind, such as our church. Power before us, such as the thrill or the hope of a coming achievement. Power round about us, like an organization or a culture, but that's somehow power on the level. We all need, in a sense, power from on high, the power from the great dynamo of God. The power of the Holy Spirit. And it's along these power lines from God the Holy Spirit that comes the power which gives light to those who live in darkness. It's along these spiritual power lines that comes the power that gives warmth and sympathy and companionship. And it's along these power lines that come health and refreshment and spirituality. And along these power lines also comes death, for we recall that little bit of power in Niagara which in former days used to rid the state of its criminals. And I liken that to the power from above which can execute our sinful selves. Because everything that's in our lives and is displeasing to God can surely be put into the chair of judgement, ad the power turn on and they're gone. And we're free to live positive and useful and good lives. How does one describe the power of the Holy Spirit? I'm sure that in itself is one of God's great mysteries. Because the kind of earthly and human illustrations that I've been trying to use this morning are all bound to fall short. But the spirit generates the faith by which we know Christ, and it's surely that which makes all the difference between the a mere interest in an historical Jesus and our real living faith in our risen conquering son. [break in recording] Today we are celebrating the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. And in that act we believe that in a spiritual sense that we are lifted up. Lifted up to a new level and a new nearness to our Lord Jesus Christ. We're brought close to him in a spiritual sense. God the Holy Spirit at work. God with us in the here and now. As we draw near to the table in the course of the nest few minutes to meet with our Lord, in the bread and in the wine, let's just remember today that the power, that the energy, that the spiritual renewal comes to us because God is with us and God is with us now, because of the activity of God the Holy Spirit. Amen. Let us pray. [tape change] Well now, there's a fine text to take on a summer Sunday morning. Some of us are going on holiday. Some of us have been holiday. Some of us are on holiday at this very time. In fact holidays was the the theme taking by the elders who were taking the family service at ten o'clock this morning. And there was a lot of little hands were shooting up when they were being asked where were they going on holiday? Rejoice in the Lord always, a great text for carefree days. I don't know about you though, it's a text that I have quite often had difficulty with and it's [reading] And again I say rejoice, rejoice rejoice and again I say rejoice []. And that's virtually all it says but it goes over the words again and again, as if it's trying to force you to rejoice through learning the words off by rote. There are times when some people find it plain hard to rejoice. And they're not help particularly by this text which can consume them with a sense of guilt as far as their faith is concerned. Because their faith tells to rejoice, but circumstances of life can be such that rejoicing is the one thing that they cannot do. And Paul goes on, a couple of verses later to write, have no anxiety about anything. And that can seem to rub in this feeling of Christian inadequacy. I suppose that the traditional interpretation of this text would be like saying that the beginning of worry or the beginning of anxiety is the end of faith. Where faith ends, anxiety takes over. Put that the other way round, the beginning of true faith means the end of anxiety. No I suppose we've got to admit that that's true, if we really had faith we wouldn't be anxious. But there's times in most lives whee faith is weak and anxiety is strong. there are times when we think that if we really had faith, if we really believed, if we were true Christians then we would have this peace and serenity about us. And because we we can't be like that we feel dissatisfied and we feel that we're less than perfect in our faith.... And so I suppose we must go back and we must say well is is Paul serious? Does he really mean rejoice at all times? I think that Paul could feel joyful because he felt that his life was nearing its end at the time that he wrote. Earlier on in the same piece of writing, in the same letter to the Philippians he had said that for him to die was gain. In his letter to the Romans, he wrote that whether we live or die we belong to God. In other words Paul didn't fear death. More than that he was almost certainly looking forward to it because it meant going home to be with the Lord. Indeed for Paul, the Lord was at hand, the Lord was the centre of life. When Paul wrote about the source of his joy, he didn't say maybe or possibly. He said I am sure I am sure that neither death nor life nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. But here's an interesting point. In the second chapter of Philippians, a little bit before where we read, Paul's describing the seriousness of the illness of his friend and companion,Ep Aproditus And even although he had written that the thought of his own death caused him no qualms whatever, when he was writing about his friend, Aproditus being at the point of death, he said, But God had mercy on him and not only upon him but on me also lest I should have sorrow on sorrow. Would the death of Aproditus have brought joy to Paul? no it would not. It would have brought sorrow on sorrow. So being a Christian then does not isolate us from sorrow or from grief. To love someone means that when that person dies we can suffer sorrow upon sorrow. Rejoice in the Lord always? Probably not. If we do so we may deny our pain, it would be to pretend that all is well, and that would mean to deny the biblical faith. Someone once wrote, [reading] the riddle and insight of biblical faith is the awareness that only anguish can lead to life. Only grieving can lead to joy, only embraced endings permit new beginnings. Newness comes out of pain. Articulated grief is the gate of newness. [] So if we are to think of all of this in terms of Christian joy then we must realize that joy does not come from being immune to everything else that's going on. It comes from knowing that no matter how intense a pain might be or our sorrow or our anxiousness, that Jesus Christ is the ultimate victor. It mean that we may not be able to rejoice in what is happening now. And we may not be able to rejoice in certain things that have happened in our past. But we can always have faith that we will rejoice in what is going to happen in the future. The joy of the Christian is that when we express our sorrow and our anxiety we shall receive God's peace and we shall receive God's joy. Paul said have no anxiety about anything, but he didn't stop there, he goes on to explain how to rid our lives of anxiety. He says but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be known to God. And then the piece of God which passes all understanding will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. That's the joy of the Christian. And the joy of the Christian, you know, is found in knowing that God's going to sustain us no matter what the future holds. Goodness knows, you hear somebody saying sometimes, goodness knows why he should suffer like that, he never did any harm to anyone. Well that may indeed be so, but the Christian faith has never entered into that particular point, because the Christian faith is never in the business of checks and balances. When we turn to God in prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, God will fill us with the peace which passes all understanding, nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God which is expressed in Jesus Christ his son, our Lord. God works together for good in all things. Some of us here today may not have all that much reason to rejoice right now but God will ultimately lead us all forward in joy. Christian joy is found when we hold on to God's hand and when we learn that fabulous certainty with which we can step out into the uncertainties of the coming day. When we really dare to trust God, we find that God is really there. and even those who stumble aimlessly through life are constantly and joyfully surprised by God's presence. Whenever we confess our anxiety, he helps, and as we confess we receive joy and peace. [reading] Oh what joys we often forfeit, oh what needless pain we bear, all because we do not carry everything to God in prayer. [] Being anxious is normal, the next stage though is to admit the anxiety and to ask for the faith to see it through. [reading] Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I will say rejoice. [] To rejoice in the Lord is to have the unshakable confen confidence that he is always at hand, and that you and I are always in his hand no matter what happens. That is the blessed assurance. The blessed assurance that God is present in every event, that he is present in every circumstance, that he is working with us to save to heal to forgive to reconcile to restore. Rejoicing in the Lord is having the assurance that nothing is ever lost, that nothing is ultimately beyond him and his power. In any difficult situation we can know that when we have done what's in our power to do, we can place our problem into God's hand and into God's care, knowing that he perhaps has other hands to take up our work that we have done all we can do with. So we must take a text like this at face value. let us rejoice in the Lord always, in the midst of everyday life for the Lord is always near. The parables of Jesus promise that the harvest will come and our constant prayer is that the kingdom will come and that all God's children will be free. Thy kingdom come, say it almost every Sunday. It will come, maybe not today maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week but someday it will come. There are times in the life of our soul and the summer season is respecter of it, times when we're worried, when we hit a difficult patch. Times when we all get down in the dumps, but God can always reach deep within us and put us back on our feet again. And in any event we rejoice that God is leading us all forward to that day when we shall be with him, when we will be with the one who makes all things new. Rejoice in the Lord always, yes for he heals the broken heart, he binds up the wounds, again I say rejoice. there are those of us here today who are happy. There are even a few who I'm sure don't have a care in the world, although I'm almost prepared to stick my neck out and say that they're in the minority. but if you are in that fortunate position then rejoice and give thanks. Give thanks and do your best to spread your good fortune around, as the old song goes, spread a little happiness. But if, and most of are I'm sure that we've come today with some thorn in our flesh somewhere, some worry, some difficulty or a disappointment perhaps of some kind, then just remember that in all things God works together for good with those who love him, and for that rejoice and give thanks, and again I say, rejoice. Let us pray. [tape change]

[speaker001:] Before or after? Is it after cos I'll a [speaker002:] Er it doesn't matter it doesn't matter. No it doesn't matter. [speaker001:] I'm I'm actually I have to go back to a house. Wee boys are with the scouts so I'll visit them in the week. Erm Oh no no. [Bill:] through this quite quick? [speaker001:] No not too quickly. Erm I wasn't to see the [speaker002:] Coronation Street finishes at half past twenty five past. So it's just about the right time [speaker001:] Aha. Right. How's the House sitting alright eh? Oh better let her get away to Coronation Street. Okay. Now do you ever buy stamps though to give to other people? [Bill:] To give to other people? No. [speaker001:] Mhm. No. So you're not a giver. [Bill:] Mm. [speaker001:] And I think it's safe to say you're working. [Bill:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Full time. [Bill:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And you are a doctor. And... let me see if it's in this list. Mm [Bill:] A what? [speaker001:] Doctor. Yeah.... Er [reading] Do you have a stamp collection now or have you ever collected stamps? [] Yes you have. Er [reading] How old were you when you started collecting stamps? [] [Bill:] Oh well eight [speaker001:] Down memory lane. [Bill:] Eight. [speaker001:] Eight.... [reading] Why did you first start collecting stamps? [] What made you begin your collection? [Bill:] Because I liked the look of them. That's it. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] I liked the look of them.... [speaker001:] Any other reason for [Bill:] No? [speaker001:] No. [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] Right. Could you have a look at this little card, the first of many I have to say. Still thinking of when you first started collecting, which of these types of stamps and other items were in your stamp collection? [Bill:] Er eight. [speaker001:] Or are in your stamp collection. [Bill:] Eight. [speaker001:] Number eight, aha. Would you like to read it out? Er would you like to read out what [Bill:] number ten. [speaker001:] number eight says? [Bill:] The very first time was [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] A column of commonwealth stamps. [speaker001:] Right. Which is number eight fine. Any others? [Bill:] My first collection [speaker001:] Mhm. First started collecting which of these types of stamps were you interested in. Now they don't tell me what to say? Er do these stamps and other items form part of a current collection that you still have today? [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] Right.... [reading] Since you first started collecting stamps, has there been any definite period when you lost interest in stamp collecting [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] That then came back to you [] [Bill:] Mm. [speaker001:] [reading] Why did you decide to take up stamp collecting again? [] [Bill:] For relaxation. [speaker001:] Mhm.... Any other reasons that brought you back to your hobby? [Bill:] No. No. [speaker001:] Er can I check again whether you have a collection now which you have bought stamps for or items for during the past twelve months? [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] [reading] What are your main reasons for keeping a stamp collection these days? [] A main reason. [Bill:] Main reason. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] Er for recreation, relaxation. [speaker001:] .... [Bill:] Of course there's no wonder. [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] [reading] Are there any other reasons occurs to you which explain why you keep them? []... I mean there doesn't have top be and [Bill:] the other would be, something to do. [speaker001:] Something to do. [Bill:] A hobby. [speaker001:] Right. [reading] Do you think your collection will increase in value by more than the rate of inflation in the foreseeable future? [] [Bill:] Er [speaker001:] Good question. [Bill:] Mm.... Oh gee whiz. Er... yeah, I think it probably will. [speaker001:] Okay. [reading] Different collectors collect stamps for different reason reasons, do you do any of these statements give you a good description of why... why you collect? [] [Bill:] Two. [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] [reading] I occasionally buy an item to add to my own stamp collection but I'm not committed to keeping it complete. [] [speaker001:] Do you think you're going to be heard? [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] Oh is it quite sensitive is it? [Bill:] Very. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] You see, sometimes you turn these over, it puts ideas into your head, you see you're not supposed to see the next card. [Bill:] Oh I see. Aye right. Right. [speaker001:] The idea of that er... Adult photographs. [reading] Please now think about the sort of stamps and other philatelic products you collect yourself. This photo shows examples of ten sorts of British and foreign stamps and related products. Which do you collect these days? []... Oh this is to do. [Bill:] It is. [speaker001:] Right. Oh no [LAUGHTER] this thing here.. Right. What do you collect these days? [Bill:] One. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] Number one, British definitives. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] And number six, foreign definitives. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] That's it. [speaker001:] right.... [reading] And how committed are you to British definitive stamps? Do you collect a wide range of them, some of them, or just a few of them? [] [Bill:] Er I'd say a wide range. [speaker001:] Okay. And [reading] What types of British definitive stamps do you collect these days? Er the current issues in mint condition, current issues in used condition or back issues? [] [Bill:] Current used.... [speaker001:] And from the cards, Er can you tell me roughly how much you have spent on British definitives in the last year if anything? And it's which of the expenditure bands would you be in? Not the amount, just the number along side there.... [Bill:] Number four. [speaker001:] zero, four. Right. Now fo form definitive stamps. How committed are you to form definitives? Do you collect a wide range of them, some of them or just a few of them? [Bill:] Few. [speaker001:] And the types of i current issues in mint condition, current issues in used condition [Bill:] Current used. [speaker001:] Right and again, [reading] How much would you spend on them in a year? []... [Bill:] Probably five. [speaker001:] Five. [Bill:] Right, [reading] Some people collect stamps from a particular part of the sheet from which the stamps are taken. Do you collect stamps in this way? [] [speaker001:] Yes. Er they're talking about things I hadn't heard of. Gutter pairs, blocks, cylinder blocks, traffic lights, [Bill:] Yes block, blocks. [speaker001:] O sheets. [Bill:] Mm. No. No. I collect anything. I don't restrict myself at all. [speaker001:] [reading] Which if any of the types of stamp books and other stamps [] Sorry [reading] other stamp related products listed, do you collect yourself nowadays? []... [Bill:] Oh.... None of those. [speaker001:] None at all? [Bill:] None of those. [speaker001:] Right.... [reading] Apart from the stamps and products you collect, do you ever buy any of the publications and other things to do with stamp collecting on card seven? [] [Bill:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker001:] Right which? [Bill:] Erm twelve first then [speaker001:] You'd want [Bill:] about [speaker001:] No no it's which of er [Bill:] Which ones [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] The magazines. [speaker001:] Which do you buy? Aha. Magazines. [Bill:] Number one, A one. [speaker001:] Right number one.... [Bill:] that's it [speaker001:] Right thank you. [Bill:] C... five. [speaker001:] Stamp albums. [Bill:] Aha. And D seven. [speaker001:] Right now okay. And again, from the card, [Bill:] This one? [speaker001:] Er aha. In a year, how much have you spent on philatelic magazines? [Bill:] On magazines [speaker001:] Aha well [Bill:] Probably times a year about six pounds. [speaker001:] What band is that? [Bill:] That's er two. [speaker001:] And on tweezer, magnifying glasses, accessories and stamp albums. [Bill:] Yes it says it's on stamp albums. [speaker001:] The total? [Bill:] The total er four. [speaker001:] Right. [reading] Do you collect stamps which follow particular themes or areas, or do you collect all sorts of subjects? [] [Bill:] All sorts of subjects. [speaker001:] Okay. [reading] Which of the statements on card nine, best describe how you organize you s own stamp collection? []... [Bill:] Number two. [speaker001:] Okay. [Bill:] ... [speaker001:] Can you remind me whether you ever buy stamps or any other stamp related products to give to another collector as a gift did you say? [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] Right.... That's very good. That saves some questions.... [reading] I'd now like to talk about places where stamps can be bought, whether for your own collection or to give as gifts. Firstly have you heard of the British Philatelic Bureau? [] [Bill:] Yes.... [speaker001:] [reading] Please now think of the different places you have bought any stamps and related products, either for your own collection or as gifts for collectors. Firstly, which of the sources on card fourteen, erm have you ever used to but such stamps and products? [] at any time ever? [Bill:] Er. Post Office.... Main counter and at the philatelic counter as well. [speaker001:] Right.... Any place else? [Bill:] Er single purchases in the B P B in Edinburgh. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] Number eight. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] Purchased at particular shops.... Other associates, oh yes. Oxfam.... [speaker001:] Right. [reading] And which have you used during the last year? [] [Bill:] Er... The main counter, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] the dealer number eight, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] and Oxfam. [speaker001:] Right. [reading] On the card, how often have you used or received items from the main counter during the last year, choosing from fifteen? []... [Bill:] Less often. [speaker001:] Right. [reading] And at the main counter, er of the total amount you've spent in the last year, both on your own stamp collection and on gifts to other collectors, [] which you don't do, [reading] how much have you spent at the main counter? [] Er [Bill:] Between Do I have to use this again? [speaker001:] Er No it's not. It's... [reading] Of the total amount you've spent in the last year, both on your own, how much have you spent at the main []... It doesn't ask you how much you spent anywhere.... Mm. Don't quite understand that. [Bill:] Don't understand at all. [speaker001:] No. No the answer to the question is almost er... all or most of the total, about half, or less than half the total. [Bill:] A half of which total? [speaker001:] I don't know. Exactly. And I didn't have any bother with this the other night. Maybe it's me who's who's. Oh the total amount you have spent in the last year. They must mean, on stamps.... [Bill:] Right. [speaker001:] How much of the total amount that you have spent, was spent at the main counter? Was it almost er All or or most of the total amount you spent in the last year, about half or less than half the total? That's the meaning, it's what you spent on stamps in the last year. [Bill:] Er a what the total [speaker001:] Aha. How much of the total was spent at the main counter. [Bill:] How much spent at the main counter? [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] Er [speaker001:] All or most of the total, or the half of less than half the total amount you spent?... [Bill:] About... about one twenty. [speaker001:] No, what what the meaning of If you can think of how much you spent, [Bill:] Mhm. [speaker001:] what proportion of what you've spent Aha. Has been spent [Bill:] Oh what proportion of that? Erm [speaker001:] at the main counter. All or most of the total, about half or less than half the to [Bill:] Less. [speaker001:] Less than half. [Bill:] Less than half. [speaker001:] Right. Er [Bill:] sorry I'm [speaker001:] No it's okay No it's [Bill:] confused it's [speaker001:] Aye. Erm... and at the B P B in Edinburgh on single purchases. How much? [Bill:] Again, less, the same proportion. [speaker001:] Less than half? [Bill:] Less than half. Yes. [speaker001:] Sorry I should also have asked er from from the card. Er about philatelic collections and counter. Er how often have you used that in the last year? You don't use that now? [Bill:] don't use it. B P B [speaker001:] Purchases at a shop now. Er how much of the money you've spent, what proportion, all, most of the total, about half or less than half the total have you spent at a shop. [Bill:] About about half. [speaker001:] Right. And at Oxfam? [Bill:] Oxfam. [speaker001:] The amount? [Bill:] Only about half again. Yeah [speaker001:] Er... [reading] If you could think about your experience of buying stamps of buying stamps and other items, to collect from the main counter of your Post Office. Using card sixteen, how much difficulty if any do you have in finding the items you want to buy from the main Post Office? [] [Bill:] Mm. Never have any problem. [speaker001:] Never? [Bill:] Never. No. [speaker001:] And at the philatelic counter? Have you ever had any problems? [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] Never? [Bill:] Not had any problems. [speaker001:] And single purchases from the B P B. [Bill:] No no problem really. It was quite straight forward. [speaker001:] Okay. And eighteen. tape sorry..... Right, [reading] During the past twelve months, have you ever bought any first day covers for new British issues either for yourself or other collectors? [] [Bill:] No.... [speaker001:] Now I'd like to discuss stamps more generally. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [reading] The Royal Mail produces about nine British special stamp issues a year. Do you think that this is too many special issues, too few [] [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] [reading] or about the right number? [] [Bill:] too many. [speaker001:] And why do you think there are too many?... [Bill:] Er [speaker001:] What are your reasons for saying there are too many?... [Bill:] Probably because the value of the stamps will not hold as you know, time goes on. A lot of the special issues [speaker001:] Devalues stamps. [Bill:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You've obviously been told that before hen they've got at you. Erm... [reading] Thinking now of all the different British philatelic and stamp related products that are currently on offer, how would you normally get to hear about them? []... [Bill:] Er... How would I get to hear about them? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] I tend to get to hear about them from seeing the Post Office. [speaker001:] Right.... Mm Post Office. Post Office counter. Right, there's a list of all the other ways, in which you can get to hear of them. Er any of these get to hear, [Bill:] Magazines. [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] Post Offices. [speaker001:] Right.... [Bill:] That's it. [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] There was er she said, Blue Peter, and they should have put it in because they've got it in for the kids. [LAUGHTER] It's true, Blue Peter are always telling you there's a new issue coming out. Er [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] E [reading] here have you seen or heard any advertising for British special stamp issues? [] [Bill:] In in philatelic magazines. Er special advertising? [speaker001:] No it isn't no no It's not special but it's just [reading] Where have you see or heard any advertising for British special stamp issues? []... [Bill:] There... there was some on television. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] And the stamp magazines and at the Post Office itself. [speaker001:] Right. And [reading] Have you seen or heard British special stamp issues, being advertised through any other sources shown on this card? [] [Bill:] [LAUGHTER]... That's have we covered number eight? Posters in Post Offices? [speaker001:] Number eight? Aha well that's I put that down already [Bill:] Yeah. [speaker001:] for a a spontaneous answer to that. Any others? [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] No. Now [reading] Would you say that seeing the T V adverts for special issues has made you a lot more likely to buy them, [] [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] [reading] made you a little more likely to buy or [] [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] [reading] made no difference? [] [Bill:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right. And [reading] Have you seen or heard other articles or features about British special issues in any of the sources shown? [] Sorry wrong card. [Bill:] No. [LAUGHTER] None there. [speaker001:] Aha.... [Bill:] Oh Blue Peter's on this. [speaker001:] Oh so it is. And have you seen anything [Bill:] I don't see Blue Peter [speaker001:] Alright so you tend to be at work. Aha. I used to enjoy it when Alistair was a wee boy but you grow out of it [Bill:] That's right. [speaker001:] you get away from it. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] Erm... Well not really no. [speaker001:] No. Right. That's fine. Okay. [Bill:] Not those. [speaker001:] [reading] Have you seen any special stamp issues produced by other countries? [] [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] [reading] How do you think the British special stamp er program compares to that of other similar programs from other countries? Is it better, worse or about the same? []... [Bill:] I think it's slightly better quality. Better. [speaker001:] British is better.... On this card. [reading] What is the main way in which British special issue stamps are better? [] [Bill:] The designs are better. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] Well which which there would [speaker001:] It's design that's number three. [Bill:] The designs are generally better, right. [reading] In what other ways are they better? [] [speaker001:] Number nine. [Bill:] Better quality printing. [speaker001:] The quality. [Bill:] Right. Is that it? [speaker001:] That's. [Bill:] Fine.... [reading] Which of these magazines if any, connected to stamp collecting and philately in general, do you know of? [] [speaker001:] Do I know if? [Bill:] Yes know of. [speaker001:] Well two three four. [Bill:] Right. And [reading] Which magazines do you ever read? [] [speaker001:] Three. [Bill:] And [reading] Do you read all all or most issues of Stamp Magazine? [] [speaker001:] No. [Bill:] Right.... No code for. [reading] Have you ever of heard of the Stamp Bug Club? [] [speaker001:] No. [Bill:] [reading] This is a young collectors club run by Royal Mail. [] [speaker001:] Mm.. [Bill:] Er [reading] If you're a member you get a pack of information, an annual special issue calendar and albums. Every two months you also receive Stamp Bug News, a topical magazine for club members. It costs three pounds to join for two years, or five pounds to join for five years. Does the idea of joining the Stamp Bug Club, interest you a lot, interest you a little or not really interest you at all? [] [speaker001:] Not at all. [Bill:] Not at all. [speaker001:] [reading] Why are you not interested? []... [Bill:] I'm not interested because it doesn't fit doesn't cover the type of collecting I do.... [speaker001:] Okay. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] Afraid not. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er [reading] Do you belong to any other clubs or British associations to do with stamp collecting? [] [Bill:] No. Not now. [speaker001:] Right. [reading] Which of the other items on this list if any, have you collected in the last year? [] [Bill:] [LAUGHTER]... Nine, [speaker001:] Aha.... [Bill:] Thirteen, [speaker001:] Aha.... That it?... Just the last year. [Bill:] Old when they say old antiquarian books [speaker001:] And maps. [Bill:] quite what they mean by old antiquarian? [speaker001:] I don't know.... No idea. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] Okay. Back to card [reading] Using card, tell me how you have spent in total during the last twelve months on your collection of models, toys, cars, trains, boats etcetera. [] Again it's just a band.... [Bill:] Zero zero. [speaker001:] Right. And old phonographic records?... [Bill:] Two. [speaker001:] Right. So you've got something in common with Gordon after all. He collects records. [Bill:] Well I don't actively collect them, I just have them around. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] He must have a c a collection of thousands thousands of records. [Bill:] Mm. [speaker001:] To me it's a very boring hobby because you can't listen to them, what can you do with them? Thousands and thousands of records. [Bill:] stamps. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I mean w with stamps at least you can look at them and you know go over them and and aye but [reading] I'm now going to read out a number of interests. For each one I'd like you to tell me how interested you are in it by choosing an answer from card twenty four. Collecting stamps? [] How [Bill:] Fairly interested. [speaker001:] Okay. Home computing? [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] Not interested. [speaker001:] Not at all. Fashion and clothes? [Bill:] Not [LAUGHTER] interested []. [speaker001:] Watching sport? [Bill:] Not interested. [speaker001:] Participating in sport? [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Not interested. [speaker001:] Not not at all. Photography? [Bill:] Vaguely interested. [speaker001:] Books? [Bill:] Very interested.. [speaker001:] Oh good good good. Erm card or board games? [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] Crosswords or crossword pu Puzzles or crosswords? [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] Not at all. Wines? [Bill:] Mm er mm. Not very. [speaker001:] Not very. Cookery? [Bill:] Very interested. [speaker001:] Do it yourself? [Bill:] Fairly interested. [speaker001:] And gardening. [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] You need the truth don't know [speaker001:] Och yes. [Bill:] Not very. [speaker001:] Not very. [Bill:] Okay. [speaker001:] Not when you you've got It's different when you have the time though. It's a a dif different thing altogether when you've got time to do that really. Then you can do it when you like. [Bill:] Mm. [speaker001:] When you're working and you're busy and you've got to do it I mean like this last week because of playing golf mainly, and putting weedkiller down, the grass is this high and [Bill:] Mhm. [speaker001:] just haven't the time to do it. And when I have the time it's been wet. [Bill:] You must have noticed our grass at the front on your way in then. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I didn't notice No I didn't. No honestly I didn't. [Bill:] It's a nice green colour. [speaker001:] Yes well there you go. [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] A nice green colour just about four inches long. more in places. [speaker001:] Aye well mine must be. Er [reading] Have you passed on your interest in stamps to children or grandchildren? [] [Bill:] No. Oh [speaker001:] Oh. Or encouraged [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] any other children to start a stamp collection?... [Bill:] Not not not children. [speaker001:] There's a medical condition that I have, I can't see dust either. [speaker002:] Oh what a relief there's somebody like me. [speaker001:] Er [Bill:] Partial-sightedness [speaker001:] You haven't passed it on to any children at all? [Bill:] Not not to children but to several adults. [speaker001:] But it's no children. [Bill:] No children no. [speaker001:] Er [reading] In which ways do you think Royal Mail could encourage more children to get involved in stamp collecting? []... No prompting please. [speaker002:] [whispering] Do you like milk? [] [speaker001:] No thanks Jean, just as it comes. You can speak you know. [Bill:] Yes you can join in the conversation. [speaker001:] Course you can. [Bill:] Yeah. They won't they won't hear. [speaker002:] They will hear. [Bill:] They won't [speaker001:] Are you suggesting that Jean has nothing interesting to say? [Bill:] No I'm the tape recorder the tape recorder won't hear a thing she says. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Bill:] Even if she does shout at me. [speaker002:] the tape recorder might discover new words. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh I very much doubt that Jean. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay, how do you think the Royal Mail could encourage mor children to get involved? [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Thank you Jean.... [speaker002:] He can's think of any way that doesn't involve [Bill:] I honestly can't think of er any way that they could do that. [speaker001:] Right. [Bill:] It's it's a thing [speaker001:] or not Usually they get a teacher at school, that's what gets them started. [Bill:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [reading] If you could please now think of all the products available to stamp collectors. Which of these items do you think have been produced by Royal Mail mainly for collectors collectors rather than for the public at large? []... [Bill:] One [speaker001:] The. [Bill:] Mm. four, five, [speaker001:] Presentation packs, first day covers, Yearly prestige stamp books. [Bill:] Year book. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Bill:] All the issues. [speaker001:] [reading] Can you think of any other products or services connected with stamp collecting, which you feel should be introduced by Royal Mail? []... Margaret did a good piece of work today. [speaker002:] What did she do? [speaker001:] Went to the Clydesdale Bank, took two brollies [speaker002:] Did they phone to say [speaker001:] Two lots of and [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] two [speaker002:] They've they left a message. [speaker001:] Aha and two. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So that was very very good. [speaker002:] Yes the had all [Bill:] No. [speaker002:] these things there. [speaker001:] That's alright. [speaker002:] somebody to pick them up. [speaker001:] [reading] I'd now like your help more directly. Can you fill in this page yourself. [] It's nothing fancy You just put a wee circle around the answer you want to give to each statement. [speaker002:] Oh good. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Well you can [speaker001:] I've got a wee boy at the scouts and he should be in about half past eight. As long as I'm not I said, Are you sure it's not going to be too late, cos I'll be forty five minutes. He said, No that's quite alright. So [speaker002:] Oh good, that's good. How many have you still to get. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I've still got plen Well er that will be two boys, a lady giver, cos you have to find people who give stamps as well as. [speaker002:] Oh yes. Now that's quite difficult I would think. [speaker001:] And a male collector. So that's me got four and I've got another five to do and I had a telephone call from field controller in Edinburgh last night and I really do think I don't know how I managed to keep my tongue still. Comments like, I suggest instead of wasting time on leads, I suggest you try knocking on doors. That is the only way you will find them. I said, Well Anne Avril and I knocked on eighty five doors on Thursday evening before we got one contact. I said i can go out and walk the streets for hours and find no one. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I says, I have to follow up leads. Yes but I'm not interested in you following up leads, I'm interested in nine interviews. I said, Well I think it'll be a miracle if I get nine interviews because the quota is far too tight. I don't understand what you mean by tight. I says, Well [LAUGHTER] right [speaker002:] The area's not [speaker001:] Right away I said, I have three people to find for working class areas who collect stamps, who are interested in stamps. I said, People generally have more to do with their money. And of course what defeated me was knows this fellow that is an ambulance driver and he's classed as working class. And he stays in a four-bedroomed detached house. But his wife's a school teacher and that's why. [speaker002:] Yes well. [speaker001:] So you're not going to get that like I mean that that was a one in a million shot, finding [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] him. [speaker002:] I would say so. [speaker001:] And I w was telling Bill about him and as Bill said it's a waste driving an ambulance. He d actually designs stamps and first day covers. [speaker002:] Does he? [speaker001:] A work of art Jean. Absolute work of art. You just couldn't believe what the man has done. [Bill:] Mm. It shows. [speaker002:] shows the people who go to the [Bill:] Aha. [speaker002:] the church. [Bill:] Yeah. [speaker002:] What's her name again? [speaker001:] I don't know. She teaches in. [speaker002:] Aye she's she's she does the lot. [speaker001:] Very nice person. She's a very nice person. [speaker002:] just been lectured to. Your mother was there. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] It says here, [] I write a lot of letters to other people. Then it, How exactly? [speaker001:] Well do you? [Bill:] Do they mean, I write I don't write a lot of letters. I dictate a lot of letters to a lot of people. Tomorrow I will sign ultimately twenty odd Do they want me to sit [speaker001:] Aye I think they must it must be talking about dictating as well. [Bill:] down and sit writing long hand? [speaker001:] No. No I think they'll mean it's number of stamps. [Bill:] Cos I rarely ever do that. [speaker001:] I think it's they look for the number of stamps used rather if it's what you [Bill:] Ah well good. [speaker001:] Aha. [Bill:] Okay. [speaker001:] I would say that. Even though you don't physically write them. Even dictating them I think you should count that as writing. [Bill:] Do you count that? [speaker001:] I think so though. [Bill:] Oh. Oh well. [speaker001:] I think so. [Bill:] Right [speaker001:] If you want to change it you just put a stroke through it. [Bill:] Just put a stroke through that one. [speaker001:] And circle the one you you want to circle. [Bill:] So I agree strongly yes. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] Ah write a few letters to the hospital forty forty. [speaker001:] Oh aye. They said to Bill on the telephone. I've been knocking on doors the other night there. I went along to you know the council houses in there? [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Some of the answers I got. Big girl was just about to close a door and she opened a big smile and she said, Ah I just remembered my daddy collects stamps. I said, Oh great. She says, Aha, every morning, he's a postman. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Three doors along a great big strapping lad. Er I would say a sixteen or seventeen. I said, er none of your pals collect stamps no? And he says, None of my pals are like that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What sort of answer [LAUGHTER] Okay. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] There was no answer to that. [speaker001:] Do you know your full postcode? [Bill:] Which one? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Here. [Bill:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Could you give me your full postcode please? [Bill:] . . [speaker001:] . And when you write your address down, do you quote your full postcode, always sometimes or only when asked? If I were to ask you for your address, what would you do? [Bill:] Only when asked. [speaker001:] Only when asked. Right. You want to write as little as possible on them. [reading] I'd like to end with a few more general questions about you and your leisure time. First, which of these daily newspapers do you ever read or look at? [] book there they are. [Bill:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yes I'm afraid so, Bill. [Bill:] I I I read the times. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] The Independent. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] The Glasgow Herald, I read that. [speaker001:] I like the Dependent it's a [speaker002:] We buy it won't buy anything else. [Bill:] Yeah. That's it. [speaker001:] And it is independent cos you get news from throughout the land. [reading] And which do you regularly? By regularly I mean at least four times a week. [] The Herald. I need to write and tell them it's not the Glasgow Herald any more. Believe you me it's it's progress getting [LAUGHTER] []. Er [Bill:] Oh aye. [speaker001:] Or or getting a Scottish newspaper on the list. Yes. If you could just turn over to the next card now Bill. [reading] Which of these Sunday papers do you ever read [] [Bill:] Two. [speaker001:] [reading] or look at? [] Aha. [Bill:] And. [speaker001:] Er right yes fine. And again, [reading] Which do you read regularly? By regularly I mean att least twice a month. [] [Bill:] Both of them. [speaker001:] Right. Next card please. [reading] Which if any of these magazines do you read or look at on a regular basis? By which I mean at least one out of every two issues. [] [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] great list of magazines []... Regular basis? [speaker001:] Aha, one out of every two issues. That's pretty regular. [Bill:] Have you seen the list? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Radio Times, T V Times, [Bill:] T V Times. [speaker001:] What's On T V, T V Quick, [Bill:] And then and then [speaker001:] Women's Weeklies You see women have been asked this as well. [Bill:] Aye I know. [speaker001:] Er Women's Weeklies, Women's Monthlies and then other magazines. [Bill:] Where where are the men's magazines? [speaker001:] Yeah, that's a good question, where are they indeed? [Bill:] There isn't a man's magazine in the whole thing. [speaker001:] There's not. [Bill:] Gardener's World. [speaker001:] That is very strange. [speaker002:] You know sometimes don't read magazines on a regular basis. [speaker001:] So is none of them you read them then [Bill:] Mm. [speaker001:] on a regular basis, Bill? Right that's fine. [Bill:] Bella, Woman's Weekly,, Woman's Own,. [speaker001:] Er [Bill:] Chat, Mine, [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . I mean as far as [Bill:] Good Food, Woman's Own, [speaker001:] Me. A magazine called Me. [Bill:] Family Circle. Never heard of it. [speaker001:] Prima, never heard of that one. Essentials. [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bill:] Not not on a regulars [speaker001:] Yeah. [Bill:] Er just they have Bella as.. [speaker001:] Actually that's not a bad magazine, Bella. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] Er [Bill:] I've just got these pictures of the [speaker001:] Where the where I used to see the Bella magazines wasn't in Southern we went with Bill's father. And occasionally if I was looking for a magazine to buy, it would get a lot of i good information in it too. Okay if you'd like to go to the next card Bill. [reading] Are you a paid up member of any of the following organizations.? [] [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] The A A. [speaker001:] The A A. Is that the only one. [Bill:] That's the only one. [speaker002:] You're in the National Breakdown [Bill:] No it's not on the list. [speaker001:] it's er National Trust. [Bill:] That's not first. The A A, R A C, English Heritage, Overseas Association, Conservative Party, Labour Party and the Lib Dems. [speaker001:] [reading] Thinking now of television and video watching. How on how many days a week do you usually watch television? []. [speaker002:] Every day now. Yeah. [Bill:] Every day [speaker001:] [reading] And on a typical day when you watch, for how many hours do you usually watch T V? [] Including videos but you videos so it's T V. [Bill:] Two. [speaker001:] Right. go to card thirty. [reading] Using this card, could you tell me how much of your T V watching time is spent watching B B C One? [] [speaker002:] Get the news [Bill:] About half. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Er B B C Two? [Bill:] The other half. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right you don't watch I T V or Channel Four? [Bill:] . [speaker001:] Okay now turning to the radio. [reading] On how many days a week do you usually listen to the radio? [] [Bill:] Seven days. [speaker001:] Yeah. [reading] On a typical day when you listen, for how many hours do you listen to the radio? [] [Bill:] Quarter to seven till eight o'clock. [speaker002:] That's all he does eight to quarter to eight [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] You don't listen in the car? [Bill:] Eight o'clock yeah. [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] What is the total then? [Bill:] That's about two and a quarter. [speaker001:] Er two or three Is it nearer two or nearer three? [Bill:] Nearer two. [speaker001:] And still on card thirty. [reading] Using card thirty again, could you tell me how much of your radio listening time is spent tuned to B B C Radio One? [] [Bill:] None. [speaker001:] Radio Two? [Bill:] Most. [speaker001:] Radio Three?... [Bill:] Hardly any. [speaker001:] Er Radio Four? [Bill:] Radio Four, none. [speaker001:] [reading] Classic F M? []... [Bill:] Less than that. [speaker001:] Right. Virgin Radio? [Bill:] I haven't [LAUGHTER] found it yet []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'd forgotten about it until this came in. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er any local B B C station? [Bill:] I try not to. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, so hardly any. [Bill:] No. Hardly any. [speaker001:] Any local commercial station? [Bill:] No. [speaker001:] Any other radio station? What other radio station? [Bill:] Well i isn't if you'd asked me last August when we bought the I would have said probably Radio Brittany or Radio Rouane [speaker001:] Oh right. [Bill:] or something like that [LAUGHTER] because we couldn't get anything else []. [speaker001:] Yeah. Er have you ever bought goods through the post by mail order? [Bill:] Er no. [speaker001:] I never either I'd have said too. But I sent to for. So I suppose that's mail order You know you've got to [Bill:] Oh aye. [speaker002:] We never buy anything. [Bill:] . [speaker001:] You're probably to. Right. [speaker002:] buy things through the post.... [speaker001:] Right. And you're a doctor. General Practitioner.... Er and I think we're safe to say that you're married and Two adults in the household. One collector? [Bill:] One collector. I depends what you mean by collector [speaker002:] One sufferer. One sufferer. [LAUGHTER] [break in recording] [speaker001:] Can I... twenty six. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Twenty five. [speaker001:] Twenty five. Oh sorry. Twenty five. Twenty five's old enough I suppose. [speaker002:] I know well stupid brat. [speaker001:] Still not happy in. [speaker002:] Oh aye it's okay. Oh did I tell you she was thinking of going to do a chiropody certificate. She phoned her careers office today, they're sending her the information free, you're thinking. [speaker001:] Yes I know. [speaker002:] I didn't know that. [speaker001:] doing that, at College. [speaker002:] Where's? [speaker001:] Erm be far side it's right keep going out and out. [speaker002:] Oh. I mean that used to be a college in [speaker001:] I but colleges. [speaker002:] Oh right that's. [speaker001:] Erm that's probably why get into. They're changing places. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Well she's quite enjoying it. [speaker002:] Is it full time? [speaker001:] But er Aha. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But as far as that er I got the information for the athletes foot and then I checked with Bill here. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] But he hadn't heard of There's another thing which Amanda suggested I try. [speaker002:] Another [speaker001:] Er Three percent compound. I'm sure but no one 's ever heard of it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It's a. [LAUGHTER] Exactly so. However I try it and I went in the shop and. I got an awful funny feeling that shoes. Cos it's a fungus could it not spread from my shoes? [speaker002:] Erm your socks. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Quite. [speaker002:] Why don't you get something to wipe them with or something. [speaker001:] I don't know. [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] No idea. So how much is the course, did she say? [speaker002:] How's she paying it is she just leaving school [speaker001:] Erm well she's she's a grant because she's never had a grant before. [speaker002:] Are they still getting grants? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh I thought they'd stopped all these. [speaker001:] . Amanda just back from Tenerife [speaker002:] But just you [speaker001:] on holiday. Twenty six [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] erm and she paid for the holiday, but she has an allergy. She's got she mustn't eat anything with preservatives. Well that's [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] not easy. So somebody had told her to apply and she would get a grant, to help towards her special diet. So she applied and she got five hundred and fifty pounds. [speaker002:] [scream] [speaker001:] So whether that's an annual thing or not I don't know. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] But it's to help it's cos she's a student, and it's to help towards a special diet. [speaker002:] Was she working? [speaker001:] No she's at college. [speaker002:] But was she working before she [speaker001:] Er no. [speaker002:] She was unemployed for how long? [speaker001:] She was unemployed. They've got most most times I think you'll have to be unemployed for six months. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] But she had been working er er as a [speaker002:] pay for this. Mhm. [speaker001:] On do you know like the Buses or the [speaker002:] Aye right. [speaker001:] continental equivalent and she was on them. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Er but it wasn't steady employment. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] S. [speaker002:] Aye. needs to pay for it. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] I don't know how much it'll cost. But then if she could get set nights. Friday night, Saturday night, then she could pay for it. [speaker001:] Aha. Aha. The National Health couldn't train her? [speaker002:] She doesn't work for them [speaker001:] Of course she doesn't work for them now.. [speaker002:] Er no. [speaker001:] But privately private private [speaker002:] Mhm. Aye but the Health Service [speaker001:] What a very stupid question, of course it'll be private. [speaker002:] They're taking patients in. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] So that's how she got her contract of employment, her probationary period's over. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So she's signed that So I mean if she can get set nights, she won't get in this term anyway I presume all the places will have gone. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But she wants to do erm [whispering] oh God, [] reflexology, that's just three hundred pounds. Just I mean she. But it's just three hundred pound. [speaker001:] resolves aromatherapy and [speaker002:] Well you see she wants to do the whole lot er cos it's all She said, Feet are the only part of the human body she can tolerate. [LAUGHTER] In strangers. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] And and folk. [] [speaker001:] spent a lot of money on reflexology to see if it would help her sleep. She's still not sleeping at nights. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] tried absolutely everything. [speaker002:] Is she alright during the day or is she absolutely haggard? [speaker001:] Tired. Kn knackered. Because she's got a stressful job. [speaker002:] Mm. Margaret Thatcher never slept much either. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] apply for Prime Minister. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er She's er. She's not. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] She's. It's really all in her mind but. And she's given up her one night a week in the W which Er social science.... [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Said that sh she hasn't been eating and she [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] went under. Erm but to get into the social work department she'll still have to do the that that [speaker002:] Mm. Och aye. I know. [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Aha. But she's another two years. for social workers. She's having trouble with it. Sh I think she sees a lot of women who have been social workers. Erm... a drop out centre drop in centre? Drop centre. It's not for drop outs, it's for drug addicts and Glasgow. But there's been a few hairy things, stabbings and it was getting a wee bit dodgy so she's given that up.... really bad for drug addicts and [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] A sort of wild west country..... And she's got to look after the budget as well. [speaker002:] Ah.. [speaker001:] Aye.... Ronnie he's still looking for a job. [speaker002:] Is he? [speaker001:] It's two months now, I think they're starting to get a wee bit worried. [speaker002:] What was he doing? [speaker001:] A chartered accountant. In the insolvency department of his office too. I mean the one department you would have thought would have been enough. [speaker002:] ? [speaker001:] Oh I wish. [LAUGHTER] Good start. Margaret. [speaker002:] Any whatsit worth their salt... any what do you call it What is he? Chartered accountant worth their salt would certainly not be working for any health service or trust hospital. [speaker001:] Why is that Dr Oh right. Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm he'd dead against it. [speaker001:] I just don't er. She's so sick.. [speaker002:] Yes I got this pile of papers on the Wednesday. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Er go and design an endoscopy suite. [speaker001:] You've to design you're making one? Who said this? [speaker002:] Ray. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] and for your next trick, Ray. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No it wasn't quite as bad as that, Ray er what do you call it had already done it. I had to quote. I had to look through all the rest and take what I wanted. [speaker001:] Well that's quite essential cos you you should know what's Oh I see right, fair enough. [speaker002:] I was raging. [speaker001:] papers a lot. [speaker002:] Aye I had to look through the whole lot of them. And get back to the designs and see what could be improved upon and what have you. Then that very night I got a phone call from this woman. This dietician saying that the architect w wants to know all about endoscop what it involves, so that it gives him an idea as to what is about. So I thought, What are you asking me for? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I said, If the architect wants to know, he can come and look and see for himself. I says, I only work part time you know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] She said, Oh I take it you don't know anything about this. I said, No, how should I? She said, Dr was supposed to speak to you about it. I said, Well he's never mentioned it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I said, [speaker001:] Well you should have high regard asking for yours. [speaker002:] Well it's just the architect She said, Well it doesn't matter, if he hasn't said to you. Well I said she said, surprised. I said, Oh, I'm not surprised,. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I felt like saying, I've got a bloody big pile of rubbish here that I have to go over so I've put in for overtime. [speaker001:] Why not. [speaker002:] I apologi I was raging. I thought, Right this could take seconds. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] If I just knew where he was prepared to stand and then could just sort of do the things round about. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So I paged him. And he [speaker001:] How big how big is the room? [speaker002:] Oh it's big. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well biggish. It's about that width from there [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] to there and oh square sort of to here, like a four [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] bedded bay. [speaker001:] Oh there's four beds in it? I only know about the room. [speaker002:] There would have been, it's a ward. At the moment they're redesigning [speaker001:] Oh I see aha. [speaker002:] one of the infectious diseases wards. So of course we were there, the geriatrics in there [speaker001:] Infectious disease ward? [speaker002:] Aye well it's over in that unit. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's geriatrics I think. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] We've only got the one infectious diseases ward. Oh God. So I was saying, I paged him, [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] I said Aye. I said, it's me, I said, can you come over? Over where? I said, Oh guess where. I said, I'm on ward one or two, I don't know which one it is. [speaker001:] So you you [speaker002:] So I said, are you coming over, I said, this could take minutes if I knew where exactly [speaker001:] So [speaker002:] you were going to stand. Now In casualty day unit is to open It's all to be opened up, they're building a new day unit and whether the day unit has access [speaker001:] Why are they doing this? [speaker002:] to the main building. [speaker001:] Why are they doing it? [speaker002:] Why? [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Och i don't know why they're moving it down there, it's already got a day unit on fifteen. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Och I don't know. I don't know what's going on in the hospital. I don't bother to find out. So he didn't come over. No I'm not coming over. He said, Just think of the place as four walls. Bare walls. I said, There's bloody windows, the whole length of one wall. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Just [speaker001:] So [speaker002:] forget about the windows. Forget No forget about the windows. [speaker001:] You can't forget about the windows.. [speaker002:] Oh aye, they can be bricked up. [speaker001:] no sunshine in again. [speaker002:] Oh no, they'll I suggested they leave the window ledge and just left sort of a window that deep along [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] for some light, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Anyway. I was raging. Well I'm not coming over. Just like that. I thought, you cheeky piggy. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I said, Oh well, right. and shoved the phone down.. So I thought, Right, this is it. So I get the back of something and I scribbled, Cupboards here, cupboards here, cupboards here, cupboards here and I thought, Right I'll see off duty. I was supposed to be off at four, this was six so I thought, two hours overtime. [speaker001:] Right, quite right cos you have to work for two [speaker002:] So that was that. So I got home. Aha. Aha. Now i if his computer er had been up and running, erm you know I might be able to design something. [LAUGHTER] Anyway so and then of course Oh that was another thing, I said to him, No you'll want to sit somewhere you'll want I don't want a desk in there, I'm not having my desk in there. I said, Oh yes, and if you think for one minute I'm taking pathology forms to your room, I said, you must have had. [speaker001:] Is it far away? [speaker002:] I said, You'll need to have a desk in there. [speaker001:] Is it far away? [speaker002:] Hey? [speaker001:] Far away? [speaker002:] His room? [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] Oh I've no idea but it's certainly more than that room and I'm not. So I said, you'll need something you'll need somewhere knees under.. [LAUGHTER] So the nest day I s As I say I slammed the phone down [speaker001:] Hey, he used to be your good friend [speaker002:] this Oh I was raging at him. Oh crawl crawl the next day. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] He was supposed to go down well he did go to a meeting, but in he comes first of all. Good morning. I thought, Hmm. And then he. But Jenny, she was in hysterics, she said, My God, [LAUGHTER] I see a lot of folk get the cold shoulder, but that took a bit of beating. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm I'm sorry about yesterday, but I just couldn't come. I said, Oh really.. And that. Well maybe. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] . So I said, Here it is. No he came back he came back after he had been at the meeting. I said,. Oh you should have done it all. I said, Indeed I have not, the top. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh you hadn't time to look at the rest. I said, Well I haven't time to look at the rest. [speaker001:] What's the rest? [speaker002:] All this other pile of stuff I never even looked at. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So you don't know what's [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No I this wee drawing. [] [LAUGHTER] That was it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I said, Oh thank you very much. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I thought, Oh aye. I said, Then tell me, I said, I don't understand these terms. What the blazes is this? A trolley loading bay? I said, What in heaven's name are we having? [speaker001:] A trolley loading bay? [speaker002:] And then it's got these rooms, it's like an eight-bedded eight-trolleyed bit. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Only it's got this separate bit for trolley loading it's got written on it. I thought, What the hell is that? I said, Why don't you just knock the flaming wall down. That's in case the roof falls in. I thought, Oh don't [LAUGHTER] tell me any more []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh and I just hope he's remembering that I don't want to be the sister in there. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You don't want [speaker002:] Want to be the sister. [speaker001:] You don't? [speaker002:] No. I don't want anything to do with the patients [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Well what what would you be then? [speaker002:] Well I'm not I'm not being a sister in the er endoscopy room. I'll do the scopes. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] I'll do the bits that I'm involved in now. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But I'm being I'm not admitting the patient or anything after [speaker001:] Will you not lose money by doing that? [speaker002:] Well I don't care. I'm not doing it. I don't know anything about ward work, I don't know anything about the forms, I don't know anything Well obviously you get R T [speaker001:] Why didn't you need this in your work. [speaker002:] Theatre? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I haven't been in wards for about twenty two years. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] And I have I'm completely out of touch. I don't know anything. [speaker001:] Each of course you'd be about seventeen years. [speaker002:] Well. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]. Right. [speaker002:] Anyway I haven't about any of the newfangled ideas. [speaker001:] Ah fair enough I didn't know about that.. [speaker002:] So I'd have no idea. The only thing I know and. And I'll just take an F grade or whatever. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] An F grade. Other than that I'm gonna do two nights.. [speaker001:] Aye well some of the night shift have been done away. I am told. [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Mm. Well from what Jeannette and Margaret have been saying, we think probably what'll happen is a lot of the the girls who do just do nights, a lot of them for pin money. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Suddenly gonna have a staff shortage. [speaker002:] Oh this is. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Alison gets six pound... thirty odd. An hour. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Well this is nights. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The the twelve hours twenty four hours. [speaker001:] Mm. Oh it is. [speaker002:] But she gets. [speaker001:] Mhm.... [speaker002:] Aye.... Ah well see how it goes. Because I mean this is just the start of the trust I mean, nothing'll change next year. By next year they'll probably issue new contracts and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] . I mean I'm just anyway. [speaker001:] Mm mhm. [speaker002:] I'm so valuable to him. gonna go downhill. Because he'd the di You're the Medical Director. [speaker001:] Yes I know that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mhm. You said that. since you w went on the ward that's been [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you thinking how you used to talk to it was great wasn't it? [speaker002:] Oh it's still fine. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh we still get on fine. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It was just I thought what they hell do you think he's on here? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Hey? Who does he think he's talking to? Get this want it tomorrow. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Wait a minute. I'm not a designer, I'm a nurse piss off. I should have said. [speaker001:] I'd forgotten. [speaker002:] And do you believe it, they wanted it the next day. I thought, Aye I thought, Alright, come again. You Where was it you said he said?? Not many houses in I must have passed his house when I was up there. There's only about [speaker001:] They haven't got numbers. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Tell me about it. [speaker002:] I know. [speaker001:] Alright. house was looking for. Erm Is it a big old house is it. [speaker002:] No I don't think so, I get the impression new house. It's a bungalow. [speaker001:] Is one of the new 'uns then? Aha aye it is. Yes. [speaker002:] What did I do with the car keys? [speaker001:] Ten They were sitting on top of your bag outside. [speaker002:] Aye I know. [speaker001:] There were about ten. Ten twelve new bungalows. [speaker002:] Well I think I don't think it's all that It's not a recent bungalow by the sounds of it cos he's had to have new plumbing [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] or a new luxury bathroom suite. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] it gives me the idea that it's not.. [speaker001:] You must have put them in your bag. [speaker002:] Aye likely. No I put them in my pocket. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Aye erm [speaker002:] Och no we got on fine. [speaker001:] I was very I was very surprised. I expected to to be like a village. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But it's not. [speaker002:] I've never been. [speaker001:] It's not. I was most surprised.. [Bill:] And what is it like? [speaker001:] It's one street. You come down a steep hill from. On the left hand side is the golf course and then there was [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] two, four, six, big old houses. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And then on the left hand side the old houses continue and the female I interviewed er I reckoned there had been a house there that had been knocked down, and they built a wee bungalow. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And then on the other side, that's where the wee bungalows start. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And there are about ten. They're not big. There's nothing I would say [speaker002:] a lo of land? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Because the sounds of it, it's quite a big garden he's got. [speaker001:] Mm. Where where was it that anaesthetist stayed that you and [speaker002:] I mean, I don't know erm [speaker001:] Maybe you went to a an afternoon cocktail party or something. [speaker002:] A late lunch at Dr 's. That was. [speaker001:] Oh. Maybe that's what I was thinking the big house was. both begin with D. [speaker002:] Mhm. Well that's enormous I mean, his garage detached house. [speaker001:] Yeah.. [speaker002:] Well straight road. Mm no. [speaker001:] It's not the best it's not the best of roads though. [speaker002:] No there's. [speaker001:] Mm. Aye well. Hope it's a happy day tomorrow.. old ladies section outing on Sunday. before Sunday. We're going would you believe it to. [speaker002:] Oh mhm. That's nice. [speaker001:] [cough] exciting stuff. [speaker002:] That's alright. [speaker001:] I've never been to [speaker002:] You're jo [speaker001:] I have been to. I lost my good watch last year in. How could I forget that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh whereabouts is the golf course then? [speaker002:] It's up the bank I think. You know when where it's signposted, I think it's [speaker001:] Oh no [speaker002:] I think [speaker001:] erm we went to for lunch before. Er what's the name of the place? . [speaker002:] Oh. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] don't be silly.. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Hotel. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] And then we went on to and parked at the start of and walked up one side and back down the other side and that's as much as I saw of it. [speaker002:] I. [speaker001:] Oh no is it a golf club possibly. Er before you get to hotels. [speaker002:] in the bottom out the bottom [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] the other end I think they go and round to the right. [speaker001:] I thought it was on the right hand side as you went into village. Obviously it's not. [speaker002:] Och I might be wrong. Could be [LAUGHTER] wrong []. [speaker001:] The food is supposed to be good. So that's always something.... [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] East Kilbride has a lovely golf course. Nice golf house.. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And erm. One day we were up at Dunfermline. [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] my hand. Pulled a muscle or something. And I could only play nine holes and I had to [speaker002:] Oh dear. [speaker001:] give up. But I knew I was going to East Kilbride I thought, This is stupid, it's only gonna make it worse. So I don't know. I took two and on Tuesday and it's been fine since so God knows what's gone wrong.. But er because of that I decided to go into Dunfermline and have a wee wander round. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It's really nice. I've never been there before. Nice new shopping centre and Marks and Sparks and. [speaker002:] Oh. Oh that's the? [speaker001:] Aye and the. Oh and who took the wrong road going across. And Sheila had to start giving me direction. I said, No Sheila, I said, I know where I'm going, it's all right. So of course she didn't like to say. We're two thirds of the way along I thought, Sheila, I said, I'm heading for the wrong bridge. I'm heading for the Forth road instead of the bridge. I said, Well I'm not [speaker002:] I mean. [speaker001:] didn't know where we were going. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Er cos it's not actually Dunfermline, the golf club it's at er.. You know where is. It's three miles out of Dunfermline as you leave the town and go towards Bridge. Anyway it took us an hour and twenty minutes to get there, it took us forty minutes to get home. That's the difference. Er it's much much longer going Bridge. Er What was I going to say? No. No. For once no. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] Oh no, it doesn't matter. No it was just that as I say, I went off to town. But I realized I was most surprised. spend a day Oh aye, that's what I was going to say, that was the first time I've actually been through. [speaker002:] Oh right. mhm.. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No but not a lot. Then we carried on out that road. And some person had very kindly turned round the sign for the A nine nine four or whatever it was. [speaker002:] Oh no. [speaker001:] And that's where we went round. However we stopped and got good directions. [speaker002:] Mhm. Mm. [speaker001:] And we found it eventually and it was beautiful day too. Started off wet and I thought, Oh is this going to be miserable? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] it was cold certainly but the sun shone. So... phones last night but the reception was very bad. [speaker002:] Where is he? [speaker001:] No idea. I was only hearing one word in five. Obviously too far away. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] He'll be using his mobile phone again. The only time that works on the long distances is if there's high pressure. The signal must travel better. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] In good weather.... Erm....... He went to look at the window sill and there was this think it's about time You did something about these. I thought, Away you go. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No no my conscience. I did that washing yesterday. And I did that er. But it's doing all this lot. I mean the bottom bit's easy to do it's fun but the cushions and that [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] But from a dis if I could just get a good you know one of these really warm days. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Take them out outside and do them. It's be no bother. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And you really have to see them before and after. I mean [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] you can't really see what's been done, but I know it's been done. All the black corners have all been taken off. But this here, reading newspapers and you get a lot [speaker002:] Mm mm mm. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Oh well, my goodness me in a carpet. [speaker001:] Mm. Carpet's alright. [speaker002:] I know. [speaker001:] That carpet that that this house has been the ba best advert for that carpet ever. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] . Since I got it. I mean the first two the first two or three nights after and that's like the sleeping death because it's it'd been so long since I had a complete nights sleep. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] .... Aye it's three month short of seventeenth birthday. [speaker002:] Oh oh is she. [speaker001:] Aye Bill was talking about driver's licence. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And all the kids all round about here seem to be quite upset by it as well. But I'd forgotten that you know, when we were wee kids, and you used to take them that night you know. [speaker002:] Oh that's right. Of course. [speaker001:] You forget about. [speaker002:] Aye [speaker001:] We tended to think of Sandy as a liability because he had been... so over the past years. Especially married. We kept forgetting, he wasn't always like that. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] You know, he used to go everywhere with us in the car. [speaker002:] Mhm. So you'll be able to go to sea now. Will you not? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Why not. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] It's a tiny little ship it's a wee poky thing. [speaker002:] Oh dear. Ah. Now you've got the chance to go you'll have to get a decent sized boat now. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aye. Cos I wouldn't worry about the cats cos I'm sure one of our neighbours would look after them. [speaker002:] Och aye. [speaker001:] makes it look quite big but it's it's not like. [speaker002:] Oh right, it's one of the new [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] thingummajiggeries is it. [speaker001:] You can't really see it. Erm [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] . Erm And here is a bit with deck. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] There's a hole straight down into the sea. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Where they drop the the Oh. [speaker002:] Little submarine. [speaker001:] remote remote vehicle. [speaker002:] I see. Okay. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] And this is a crane thing is it. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's where find the er stores and stuff under. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] She's nice, she's quite good. And well Ian he's into computers and things like that, I mean the technology The bridge, behind the bridge just unbelievable, I think it's [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] got four or five computers. Er taking data from... whatever. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] lot more the the the job they have, it's a a very long it runs from just off the coast of er Norway right down [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] to Great Yarmouth and then across to.... So and the foods good. [speaker004:] Oh that's [speaker002:] Tremendous. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] sticker. There there and there. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] He's inherited I believe. [speaker002:] Is he quite liking it? [speaker001:] It's a job, that's all. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I think it's too much of the from the you know the contractors. They tell them what to do. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And sometimes he doesn't like it. Needles to say i if they want them to do anything. [speaker002:] Mhm. Mhm. . [speaker001:] Mm. head office. Because there was no H P Sauce. All the condiments were unheard of brands.. Er yeah, they actually wanted Baxter's this and Colman's that [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] and Heinz this. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Petty. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Really petty. quite a lot of work in er phone calls over the past two weeks. operators. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] a lot of work was done. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] . He was offered a good job on a ship called the and she's purpose built for the North sea after [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] the Alpha Piper. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And she is. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Oh it's the most weird looking thing. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And all sorts of safety equipment on it. Er fire hoses and things. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And it would have been good because it was per The only thing was he would have had to have gone up to and do a survival course. [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] You know like taking you up high and dropping into You know. [speaker002:] Aha. Aha. Yes.. [speaker001:] But I had a funny feeling possibly he's not wanting to do it anyway. doesn't know it but er the lady who er in charge of personnel for. And the course which is a helicopter landing officer. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It's. And they don't have enough people with that so [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] you do the courses in. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] . I don't know if he'll mind.... But the second mate's the same, they're all straight from navigation college and No [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Well they they've got the theory. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Mhm you know. Mm. I think I told you, the first. I don't know what this one this one's being called. Danish bacon. See the people who own the ship are Danish.. And i the the lady who runs the personnel department, it's her husband who on the ship. [speaker002:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Sinbad, what on earth are you wanting? Mm? What is it? Is it teatime? Is it teatime? [speaker002:] Anyway I was suppose I'd better get back. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I took pork out at lunch time. Mm? [speaker001:] Any more holidays in the offing? [speaker002:] Me? Well I'm off on Tuesday and. I think I am. And then I'm off next week. Oh aye I'm off next week Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. [speaker001:] Oh give us a shout and we'll go for lunch then. [speaker002:] Oh. No I'm not off Wednesday. I'm off Monday, Tuesday and if we get a doctor in, I'll do the scopes I'll be in on Thursday. So I might just have Monday Tuesday Monday Tuesday. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] If not, then Monday Tuesday Thursday Monday Tuesday Thursday off. And the Monday Tuesday. Monday Tuesday six,, that's eight days, nine days ten eleven twelve,th thirteen, twelve days I might have taken this year already. [speaker001:] Mhm. Is this you having to take these days? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No.... Is it your own choice. So it counts as holidays. [speaker002:] Well weekdays. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker002:] Cos Ray's away. And I don't see why I should. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] I don't know what to do. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I just don't Ah well maybe a week Tuesday, if you remember if I remember. Or [speaker001:] What date is it. [speaker002:] Nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, twenty ninth of June. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Well I'll phone you anyway. [speaker001:] Aye erm [speaker002:] Just in case something comes up and I've got to go in or. [speaker001:] . Aye I believe you. I know I should have phoned [speaker002:] all that housework to do. [speaker001:] told you about erm how he's. Cafe dinner it was great. [speaker002:] Oh aye. [speaker001:] June the twenty ninth. Oh no. [speaker002:] And of course Margaret's home again in July for a week. Niece's wedding. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mind you it's daft. Imagine paying eight hundred pounds return for a day. Mind you I suppose it breaks. I mean that's between April and October she's due back. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] home for a week. Oh Nicola's applied for her social work course. [speaker001:] Has she? Mhm. Nicola that's Yes. [speaker002:] That's her daughter. The one who's in working in a distillery.. [speaker001:] And she's a son Alistair. [speaker002:] Aye, he's... building. [speaker001:] Mm. he was [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Aye he's not. Well what they drop I d I don't know, but you could have applied [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] for a job as what was it,. Control room staff for the police. [speaker001:] Right. Mhm. [speaker002:] But that was too much responsibility. Somebody's life might depend on him getting information. For the giving it out to [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] information somebody might die because he'd been too slow, or there's been a delay in transmission, or there's been a fault in the transmission and he's not prepared to take that responsibility. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's very annoying. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah. Is he married? [speaker002:] Married and divorced he married oh less than a year. [speaker001:] Oh of course that's right that's right. Aye that's right,. [speaker002:] We were supposed to go to the wedding, my father died. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So there's still not any divorce through yet although Margaret Now if she's going to take him to solicitors. [speaker001:] That would be. [speaker002:] Ah but no no. I think she. Erm och I remember she wasn't I don't know. I think. Aye no no. I don't think you can do that now anyway. [speaker001:] No right. Is he going to be up there sort of permanent now? [speaker002:] I think he's put in for a. He put in for five. [speaker001:] as long as it's not Bosnia. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh he would apply for there. [speaker001:] Oh dear. [speaker002:] Oh aye he applied to go to the Gulf. they need them over here. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] before they go. Erm he put in for Cyprus I think but then everybody puts in for Cyprus. Erm [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Or Germany. Och I don't know, he put in for something else. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But I mean he's been up there how long? About two years? [speaker001:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] But he likes it up there. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's doing this he doesn't come back here for leave, he'd rather stay up there. Does he go away hill walking and. [speaker001:] Aye [speaker002:] Yeah. Mhm. No I've given it up, we can play it now we've got that. Er no I haven't Oh golfing. [speaker001:] Oh great. [speaker002:] That's why he to get golf clubs. [speaker001:] Knowing his luck he'll get hit in the nose with a golf ball. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh God, Aye. [speaker001:] Break it again. [speaker002:] Mm. Oh and he met this girl, they went for a weekend to Aviemore. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Camping but they ran out of money so he wouldn't be able to see her till payday. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So that that was I mean he just had been paid so it was [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] about four weeks I don't know whether how would that went down when he phoned her and told her. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] He's twenty one. [speaker001:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Twenty two in January. He's just twenty one. Wait I think [speaker001:] Ah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter. [speaker002:] Twenty two. Oh no twenty two. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] And happy as ever. How long is she in now? [speaker001:] Sometime this eight, nine, ten years. And as as it goes one she gets more and more permanent. But she's she's still well I think she'd daft. She's in at the hostel at least an hour before she starts. She likes to sit and cup of coffee. And when the shift's over, she sits another. So she's hardly in the house and she'll be back again. You know. [speaker002:] Wait how long's this stint of night duty? [speaker001:] Well that was at well that was last time it it's normally seven or eight nights. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] On the trot. And then you get two or three days off. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And the it's early. [speaker002:] Oh that's her back on to days [speaker001:] Yes aha. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] But she seems to be doing night shift a lot recently. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Probably cos of staff shortages. Or somebody's not there. Jeannette will you fi will you take night shift for..... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] She likes being [speaker002:] Well we've got X-ray staff. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But that is. [speaker001:] I can never remember I can never remember. Erm four years. [speaker002:] Oh has she. [speaker001:] seem all that long ago [speaker002:] It it was if they're married two years. Mind you we've got loads of staff nurses as well and they're not all made up to. [speaker001:] Aye. Ah right. [speaker002:] I couldn't tell you what. I'm sure it was a almost two years. Eighteen months. She got she qualified July or August. Well she she sat her finals. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And she started right away. On the ward. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And that was the that would be a year. That'll be like four years this August.. Very unusually for anybody to stay in that work for four years. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Usually after a couple of years, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But Jeannette seems to think everything will be very. [speaker001:] Oh I mean if she likes it, that's fine. [speaker002:] Oh she does. she does. [speaker001:] Well that's okay.... [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Mm. Mhm.... [speaker002:] She's acting up.. You tell him, she said, Well why should I tell him? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] Apparently he's he's quite good tempered. [speaker001:] Oh [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] Who's Brian? [speaker001:] Jane's son. [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] Er and she's not I think there's a few I'm not sure. And apparently the man was a bit doolally pardon me. So he she always to. But they changed their mind. Once she was qualified. They thought they would go abroad. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So that's gone by the wayside.. [speaker002:] Oh really. Mhm. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Mm. Terraces? There's no terraces. Mhm. [speaker001:] . [recording ends]

[Matt:] Yes, that's it. That's about it... And I feel very ill prepared tonight. [Sarah:] Oh well, don't worry, leaves it to [Matt:] Erm yes. But it's There is no doubt about it this piece of scripture is written for the believers in the church. It's got nothing to do with people outside the church. believers and how they er it's it's really to counteract the false teaching and how they should leave their lives together. So u what Everything we're reading in here is to do with believers, not not nothing to do with the people who are not of the faith. [Janet:] Not [Matt:] I feel quite certain about that. Pardon? [Janet:] Switched on now? [Matt:] Yes it's switched on So erm as I say I feel very ill prepared. Erm... let's if we've [Jack:] Have you switched on? [Matt:] Yes it's on, yes it's on. So Chapter verse twelve.... Well it's a but but w er the verse nine, [reading] Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the dark []. Right? [reading] Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. [] That's wonderful isn't it? If you're living in the light you won't stumble. If you're wor In other words if you're working with Christ, keep your eyes on him, you'll not go wrong. [speaker005:] [cough] Mm. [Matt:] But whoever hates his brother, and this is talking about another Christian, you know? [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] But whoever hates his brother, that's another fellow believer, is in darkness. Now that's a hard word isn't it? That's verse eleven. [speaker005:] Mhm. [Matt:] [reading] And walks around in the darkness, he does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded him. [] [Alan:] May I ask a question? [Matt:] Yes. [Alan:] Most of us don't hate anybody but we do dislike some. [Matt:] Well that's just about as bad isn't it? [Alan:] Is that the same? [Matt:] I would have thought so. [Janet:] Hate's a very [Alan:] Is it? [Janet:] strong word [Matt:] Hate's a strong word but I think it's I think it's er not liking somebody, isn't it? [speaker005:] [cough] [Alan:] Did you start the reading of verse twelve? [Matt:] No [speaker005:] No. [Matt:] I was just building up to it cos it's [Alan:] Oh, and no wonder [Janet:] That's why I'm getting in a muddle. [Alan:] I couldn't recognize it. [Matt:] Well you've got to build up to where you are. [Janet:] Yeah. [Alan:] Mm. [Matt:] Er so we'll move on to verse twelve [whispering] [] thirteen ad fourteen. [reading] I to you dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. [] [Jack:] Who are the children? [Matt:] The Christians. [Jack:] Are they little boys and girls? [Matt:] Oh Jackie. W w yeah. We'll go onto that, then [reading] I you fathers. Because you know him who is from the beginning, I to young you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I to you dear children because you have known the father. [] [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] [reading] I to you fathers, because you have known him is who is from the beginning. I to you young men because you are strong and the word of God lives in you and you have overcome the evil one. [] Now there's y You can go to town on that one. [Alan:] Yes. [Matt:] But I think Meir has the right er interpretation of it. alright but he goes Ooh he goes on and on and on. Erm Meir says [reading] There are graduations in Christian experience, the child, the father, the young man. The knot of the father is the glad sense of forgiveness. Of the father a deep knowledge of God. [] I I like this. [reading] And the young man, victory over the power the of evil.... But all these is growth. The child through forgiveness, also comes to know the father. The father can only go on to know God more profoundly and as the young man men become stronger, they are more aware of the indwelling spirit of power to overcome the tempter. [] [Alan:] So it's spiritually interpreted isn't it? [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] I think so. [Rita:] Yes. [Matt:] I think so. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] Er but I think the important thing in in verse twelve is on account of his name. the name of Jesus, isn't it? [Rita:] For h the name sake [reading] Your sins are forgiven []. [Matt:] That's right. His na [Rita:] You For his name's sake. [Matt:] Yeah. The salvation in no other name. [Rita:] Mm. [Matt:] And his t his policies There's only one me er mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. [Jack:] Does it mean for his name sake, that you must confess his name? [Matt:] Yes, I think so Jack. [Jack:] Is that what it means? [Matt:] I think so. I think so because if you'll not confess his name, we're not one of his are we? [Alan:] Mm. [Matt:] Surely, do we know if we receive him and believe in his name and he gave us the power to become Yeah. Be that as it may. It's very well glibly saying we're all children of God. Very often preachers say that. But my Bible tells me he gave me the power to receive him and to become. [speaker005:] Mm. [Dennis:] It's a you see? [speaker005:] Mm. Yeah. [Matt:] But do some folk glibly say we're e every human being is a child of God. [Dennis:] No. [Matt:] Well [Dennis:] got [Matt:] Some people would say Some people would [Dennis:] The scripture says you don't accept it. [Matt:] That's what my Bible says anyway. [Dennis:] Yeah. [Alan:] This is very important that we [Rita:] Mm. [Alan:] should er and we do already confess the name don't we? [Sarah:] Yeah. [Matt:] But but I mean Well We're not Christians if we don't. [Alan:] No but we do, we do in this room, [Matt:] E e Yes. [speaker005:] Yes [Alan:] And our intention [Matt:] Y [Alan:] at the church is to get others to confess the name [Matt:] That's right. [Alan:] too. Isn't it? [Matt:] Yes. [Rita:] Yes. [Sarah:] all [Matt:] But somebody [Sarah:] have a choice [Matt:] Pardon? [Sarah:] We all have the choice to be children of God. [Matt:] We've got the we've go the choice to either to become or or not to become. [Sarah:] Mm. [Matt:] Ah Could you look up Acts four twelve, Sarah. I've got that down and I don't know what it says. What does Acts four twelve say,... [Janet:] [cough] [Sarah:] [reading] Salvation in found in no one else for is there there is no other name under heaven given to me by which we must be seen. [] [Matt:] That's right, marvellous isn't it? So there you are. So we [reading] I to your children because your sins have been giv forgiven on account of you believing upon his name []. That's really what's it's saying isn't it? [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] Now my little commentary says What? Oh Aye. [reading] I like you because by extended repetition in these verses extended repetition in these verses [] This my commentary, [reading] John assures his readers that in spite of the ra the regulatio test contained in the letter []. Tests, because it is a rigorous test, I think I think it's tremendous, don't you? [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] In the l er in the letter [reading] He is confident of the sil salvation. Dear children, fathers, young men, as elsewhere in this letter, dear children probably refers to all John's readers, including fathers and young men. The term fathers and young men may however describe two different levels of spiritual maturity. [] [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] Some hold that all three terms refer to levels of spiritual maturity. [] There you are. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] Erm... Rita, what do you think? [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] anything different from what anybody [] [cough] [Matt:] [reading] I went to you first because you have known him who is from the beginning. [] From the beginning of what?... John one one. [Alan:] Mm. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] Says the says the accepted Christ is the saviour, is that what it means? Verse thirteen? [Sarah:] He seems to progress doesn't he? From children. [Matt:] Yeah. [Sarah:] And then on to men. [Matt:] Yeah and then on to [Sarah:] And then on to father. [Matt:] Yeah. [Sarah:] So [Rita:] That's a different, [Sarah:] Yeah that's right [Rita:] different [Sarah:] That's it. [Matt:] Er [Janet:] are strong. [Matt:] Pardon? [Janet:] Oh, it's alright I'm just [John:] You've have known him from the beginning [speaker005:] Beginning. [John:] means from the beginning. [speaker005:] Yeah. [John:] Namely from the beginning of the world. [speaker005:] Yes. [Janet:] From the beginning of time [John:] Yes. [Sarah:] Yes. [John:] He'd been there from the beginning, that's we know about him. We fathers. [Janet:] Yes. [John:] We know that he is eternal. [speaker005:] Mm. [John:] Not just that we found him so many years ago. Or he found us but but it is from the beginning, surely. [Matt:] I don't know John, I don't know. [John:] No. [Matt:] I don't know. [Sarah:] er John's chapter one which is about that. [John:] Yes it is about that. [Matt:] See one one, yeah. John one one. [Jack:] from the beginning that's what it's all about. And this epistle is all about from the beginning the eternal. [speaker005:] [whispering] [] [Jack:] Yeah well she'd got to [Sarah:] She likes to sit beside [Matt:] Would you like to move over there to the er er John and er can bring that one over here. What does one one John one one say then? [Rita:] In the beginning beginning was a word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God at the [Matt:] Aye. [Rita:] beginning. [Matt:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, it surely is yes. [Rita:] Come in Pat. [John:] Come on Pat. [Matt:] Come in. Right. [beeping] Come in [Rita:] Come in Pat. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] Come in Pat. [Janet:] this is being recorded the [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] Ah. Eh [speaker005:] Delete please. [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] Right. Now where are we now? [speaker005:] Coming in. [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Fifteen. [Matt:] Fifteen. [reading] Do not love the world or anything in the world, if anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him. For everything in the world, the craving of the sinful man, the rest of the eyes and the of what he does comes not from the father but from the world. The world and it's desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. [] [Rita:] I erm I I don't know how you feel about that but [speaker005:] [cough] [Rita:] when I read that, you know, this is perhaps a wrong s feeling of to express but yo The lord the God created the world but he's not meaning it in that respect is he? It just means that putting it first [Janet:] The things of the world. [Rita:] The things of the world. [speaker005:] the material [Janet:] Yes. [Rita:] But God still created the world to provide the materials things. [John:] Not talking about material things, we're talking about the sort of fall of nature, [Rita:] I know. That's right, this is what I'm saying. So it's misleading [Matt:] er er er Well it can be but it c er er er er er I found it very helpful when I discovered that after I was saved. This spoke to me. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] It has come to my mind that it is contrasting er spiritual [Janet:] Yeah. [Jack:] spiritual life [Matt:] Yeah. Yeah. [Rita:] From a natural [Matt:] naturally. [Jack:] Through through the [Rita:] Yeah. [Jack:] the world. The material [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] world [Rita:] Yeah. [Janet:] It just seems that there's [Jack:] people [speaker005:] [cough] [Janet:] perhaps no another way to put it. [Rita:] Hmm. [speaker005:] Mm. [Alan:] Yes. [Janet:] But... when you think of er It's not really referring to the beauty of the world. [Matt:] Ooh no no it's the it's the [Alan:] Oh no [Janet:] exactly [Matt:] i it's the far world it's referring to. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] It's the what? [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] The far world not the The unspiritual world that that we can You see the pride in the eye, that with that that that that can be can be another women or it can it can be cosmetics, it can be a dress to women or it could be another man. It could be anything couldn't it? Some [Alan:] the world ambiguous, I've always found it so anyway. [Dennis:] Is it is it the world that's created and all the beauty of the world? [Matt:] No no no [Rita:] Exactly, I don't think it can incorporate that though. [Janet:] Have you seen about the bit [Matt:] Yeah, you read it out Sarah. [Sarah:] My my Bible says [reading] Do not love the world or anything that belongs to the world, [] [Matt:] Yes, yes yes. [speaker005:] then that one really. [Pat:] [reading] Not the world of people or the created world. But the world or realm of sin which is controlled by Satan and organized against God and righteousness. [] [Janet:] Oh that's entirely [Matt:] Right. [Rita:] That's the answer isn't it? [Matt:] Yes that is the answer. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rita:] That's just the [speaker005:] clear [Rita:] right reading dear. [Matt:] Well we've all loved the world, so it's g no good kidding [Janet:] No. [Matt:] ourselves is there? [Rita:] No. [Janet:] Because we love living in the world. [Matt:] Yeah but we've all loved [speaker005:] [cough] [Janet:] And we love the world. [Matt:] The so called joys and [Janet:] Yeah. [Alan:] M m my translation I think m makes it quite definite. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] [reading] Everything the world affords, all that panders to the appetite, or [] [Matt:] That's right. [Alan:] [reading] entices the eyes. [] [speaker005:] Yeah. [Alan:] [reading] All the glamour of its life springs not from the father but from the Godless world. [] [Matt:] That's right. [Rita:] Mm. [Alan:] [reading] And that world is parting away with that he who does God's will stands forever. [] [Matt:] That's right. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] But of course [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] every everything which is not in Christ will won't it? [Rita:] Yeah. [Matt:] Yeah. [Janet:] I i [Matt:] It's only only Christ is the is the only thing that's e [Janet:] Is there any ending [Matt:] eternal thing isn't it? [Janet:] Eternal. Yes. [speaker005:] Because we've all course I have layers of [Janet:] Yes exactly. [speaker005:] Course there's nobody who loved the world more than what I did. the sinful man? Goodness gracious me. [Pat:] No but I think as your faith deepens and grows you're more aware of those. [Sarah:] Yes. [Matt:] aware of it before Sarah. Because you were yo yo yo you were walking in darkness. As I said. It's wonderful when we come in to the light. [Sarah:] I know [Matt:] And walk in the light. [Sarah:] So you [Matt:] Yeah. [Sarah:] these things don't you? [Matt:] Yeah. Well the You're [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] Yeah i it's it's not even a conscious not doing it. It's a it's [Rita:] No no [Matt:] a desire that's taken away from you. [singing] The things I used to do, I do them [] [Rita:] Well you put it in [Matt:] [singing] no more. [] [LAUGHTER] [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] Pardon? [Janet:] If you become aware of what really matters in your [Matt:] Yes. [Janet:] and this is growing isn't it? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] Yeah. That's spiritual growth. [Janet:] Is that spiritual growth? [Matt:] Yeah. Goodness gracious me. My first love was the bagpipes. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] And I really loved them. [Janet:] And don't you love them now? [Matt:] And I was good Oh and I and I was a good player as well. A competition player. But I went to a pipe bag championships in Beeston and I myself completely. I says it's even ruined me for. Even I mean the Bible says, once you're in Christ you're ruined for the world. It says in somewhere in the King James' version, you're ruined for the world. And although I'm not I enjoyed the piping, I enjoyed But I was not at peace I says I says, you've even ruined me [LAUGHTER] for this []. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] Pardon? [Janet:] other than the bagpipes [Sarah:] Bagpipes. [Matt:] But I er but I said to myself, God I'm even ruined with this. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] [Janet:] No it's which is foremost. You put too much attention on that and not enough on [Matt:] That was very [Dennis:] Yes yes that's [speaker005:] what you make an [Matt:] Yes, it was my religion [Janet:] Yeah. [Matt:] at one stage. [Rita:] Yeah. That's right. [Dennis:] Goodness gracious me. [Rita:] I'm sure the Lord's thrilled you play the bagpipes. [Matt:] Th th th th that's not what I'm saying. it's written in with this [Rita:] No I know what you're saying and I don't know why you should [Matt:] No no no with this [Rita:] It doesn't mean the same. [Matt:] No. [Janet:] before God. [speaker005:] Yes yes. [Matt:] God come He Christ must come first. [Janet:] Yeah. Yes that's right. [Jack:] N nearly all idols nearly all idols [Janet:] Idols [Jack:] have their value. [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] But they're idols because they take the place of God. [Matt:] That's right. [Janet:] That's right. [Jack:] And every every interest [Matt:] Yeah. [Jack:] can be can be e e e e every is interested in an idol. And we we we we and we're n not as long as it's put in the under God it's alright. [Matt:] You see describes it as what The lack of grace, there's no grace you know in the in in in the There's a person who's effected by these. They haven't come under grace. [Alan:] Hmm mm. [John:] When I was converted I lost er a great deal of interest, not completely, but a great deal of interest in in in fiction. [Matt:] In fiction? [John:] Yeah. [Matt:] Why? Oh yes he would. He he Yes he would and great deal [Janet:] as well [John:] Yeah Yeah. [Matt:] Yeah. [speaker005:] [cough] [John:] I'm s I'm [Janet:] It's void isn't it? [John:] I'm sorry that I've lost it, like I think it perhaps Si has lost the pipes. [speaker005:] Yeah. [John:] But er I I understand why, because it played too big a part in my [Matt:] Yes. [John:] imagination can take charge of it. That's bad. That's bad for you and it's bad [Janet:] Yeah. [John:] for him. [Janet:] That's right. [Matt:] There is a life s empty pride. here John's uses a most vivid Greek word, Allazonia You know that? [Alan:] Yes yes. [Matt:] Allazonia. [reading] To the ancient moralists the Allazon was the man who laid claim to possessions and to achievements which did not belong to him in order to exalt himself more. We've often met people like that who blow their trumpet er pretending they were somebody [LAUGHTER] else [] [] [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] The Allazon is the braggart. And C H Dodd calls Allazonia pretentious egoism. [LAUGHTER] [reading] The man of the world is doomed to disappointment. And the man of God is certain of everlasting Joy. [] Now you can't beat that can you? [Janet:] No. [Pat:] Mm. [Matt:] You can't beat that. So have we got any more comments on these verses? [Jack:] One of the great dangers of today I think is is adultery, and especially [Matt:] Absol [Jack:] now adultery of nature and of the world. [Matt:] Yes. And of intellect Jack. [Jack:] Eh? [Matt:] And of intellect? [Jack:] Well yes intellect too. But there's many I was only thinking of the the tendency to care for the world and look after it and worship [Matt:] Yeah. [Jack:] it, you know. Cos it's so beautiful. [speaker005:] Yeah. mm. [Jack:] People that carried away [speaker005:] true [Jack:] beauty and the world, it's wonderful. That's and it's [Janet:] Mm. [Jack:] I'd also after imitations have gone, and they're very good imitations sometimes. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] That's where they deceive us. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Janet:] That's right. [Matt:] You see that y er I mean your chapel could become your idol can't it? [Jack:] Yes [Rita:] Yes. [Matt:] Your minister can become your idol. [speaker005:] Yes [Jack:] yes. [Rita:] Your home can be your idol. Everything can [Matt:] Oh very much so. Yeah. Yeah. [Jack:] Your congregation can become your idol. [Matt:] Yeah. [Rita:] Everything [Matt:] Yes it can. Yeah. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] trap. Now what's the next portion, verse er verse eighteen? [speaker005:] Mhm. [Matt:] Dear ch [Dennis:] little children. [Matt:] Dear children, this one says. [reading] This is the last hour.... And as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many Antichrists have come, this is how we know, it is the last hour. They went out from us but they did not really belong to us, for if they had belonged to us they would have remained with us but their going showed that none of them belong to us. [] Now he's referring there to those er people of false believers, wasn't he? Who left departed from the fellowship, I think, isn't he? [Janet:] Yes. [Matt:] And er but the last hour [speaker005:] [cough]... [Jack:] See how important fellowship and the church was to this man? [Matt:] Yes. [Janet:] Mm. [Jack:] If you went outside it you were lost. You were Antichrist. [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] Er a aye but er but but but they but those who'll but is but if if if we we can get lost in our way if we break fellowship, can't we? [Rita:] Yes. [Matt:] Not necessarily but we can. Cos it doesn't Cos you need fellowship don't you? [Jack:] Yes. [Matt:] You need it, to feed yourself. Even [Rita:] Yes. [Matt:] though Even though that it it might aggravate you, t does something for you doesn't it? [Jack:] Yeah. [Rita:] Yes I fully agree. [Matt:] But But er it was the Galatians that left wasn't it? I think. [Rita:] Surely it just means everybody against Christ? [Matt:] The well these are a people who [Rita:] No. [Matt:] were in the fellowship but they were [Janet:] They they get funny with [Matt:] they were false [Janet:] things or they some won't go that far. People are leaving all the time from the churches. And new [Matt:] Especially [Janet:] ones coming in. [Matt:] Oh es especially the pentecostal groups [Janet:] Oh we change over like this. [Matt:] Oh a terrible [Janet:] E I only questioned about something on Sunday coming home, and she said well, lady that were bringing me, she said well they won't have it. [Matt:] They won't have the hard teaching. [Janet:] No they've got. No [Matt:] Yeah. [Janet:] they won't have the hard teaching. [Matt:] No no. [Janet:] So they don't last very long. Well some do but She said the idea I mean she said about I was asked a question about an American we've got that is with us but he doesn't preach very often, and I said well where is he? I said er I I imagine cos I've been visiting his wife you see. They said well er I thought perhaps he was away preaching, she says oh no they don't want any of m our people used to go out a lot preaching, but they don't want any of them now because it's too deep for them to [Sarah:] Yes I can understand that. [Janet:] And he's very straight, our pastor you know, he he tells 'em straight you know. [Matt:] Ooh aye oh aye, yeah. [Janet:] [LAUGHTER] Don't mess about and er well I said [LAUGHTER] I never find [] anything offensive but [Rita:] I think that's why it's best always to keep it so simple. Don't you? [Matt:] Well it is a simple gospel. [Rita:] No it It is but [Janet:] Well it's not that I mean there's a there's a you but [Matt:] Ah but [Janet:] you name what [Matt:] it [Janet:] around the m around the Mansfield field, and these Children, at School they know far more than I do at my age I think. And things that's going on, it's got to the children.... Evil things it is. [Sarah:] Oh yes. [Janet:] Yes. And and And saying you get people in you see. [speaker005:] [cough] [Janet:] Perhaps come for the first time. [Rita:] Yeah. [Janet:] Well there's We don't know what their lives like any k way. E they come unto the word and e Well if the want to follow the lord it's different isn't it? But if No good hanging about is it? But he's very very straight about everything. Whatever the lord tells him to say he does it. [Matt:] And he disciplines her in front of the he'll discipline them [Janet:] Yeah but he'll he'll discipline them. [Matt:] in front of the congregation. [Janet:] And they won't and you see so But understood yesterday, they w they weren't they want to take it you see? [Matt:] Now. I see here's got such a lot on this but he says erm Well I've lost where I was. [reading] Antichrist can mean either the opponent of Christ [] [Rita:] Exactly. [Matt:] [reading] or the one who seeks to put himself in the place of Christ. [] [Janet:] Mm. [Sarah:] Mm. Anti. [Matt:] [reading] Antichrist can be one who subtly tries to take the place of Christ from within the Church [] [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] and the Christian community. [] [Rita:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] The one who will be in open an oppos opposition, the other a subtle infiltration. [] he comes in many guises doesn't he? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] Anyway. Er we need to choose the meanings for Antichrist. It can either way. The simplest way to choose is to think of it is that God is the incarnation Christ is the incarnation of God. Which he is. And goodness and the Antichrist is the incarnation of the enemy,det satan himself. [speaker005:] Oh [Rita:] Yeah.... [Jack:] Because the Antichrist is not merely somebody who comes along and er and ten times the the violence and persecution and all that. [Matt:] No. [Jack:] Like Hitler for example. The Antichrist is a very subtle very [Matt:] Oh [Jack:] much more subtle. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] Very much more subtle. [Pat:] guise of angels. [Dennis:] exactly yes. Yes. [Janet:] [cough] [Matt:] the Antichrist is not so much a person as a principle. The principle which is actively opposed to God. Cos you see, those people who are working Not coming back to your fellowship is a illustration, they are really They they might be Christians, but they're walking in the l Well th they're allowing the enemy [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] the there are choice, either submission or going their own way, the pride of the world [speaker005:] Yes, and this is it, yeah. [Matt:] t to disobey what John was just saying in those previous few verses. [Rita:] Yeah. [Matt:] Er [reading] opposed to God and of which may well be thought of as incarnating itself in those men in every generation, who have sin to be the blatant opponents of God []. Well a lot of people have been called the Antichrist haven't they? Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, the Pope and plenty others. [Jack:] Yes, all these all these [Matt:] Yeah. [Jack:] strong people you [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] see. But er Antichrist is often a very much er [Matt:] And [Jack:] more harmless looking person. [Matt:] Oh yes he is Jack. [Rita:] Yes he is Mm. It can [Matt:] Yes. [Rita:] be the type that's very practical towards life, [Matt:] He can be i er [Rita:] that has no er psychology or [Matt:] similar to work miracles he will you know. [Rita:] Yes. But it can be a very direct, practical [Jack:] But communism communism was a form of Antichrist. [Matt:] Ooh Absolutely absolutely. N And Nero and Nero, according to Bartley was very much a a human monster. [Jack:] Yeah. Yeah. [Matt:] But to get Antichrist that we've got to d wh where a Is the one who might even proclaim the gospel to us but you know perfectly well there's something wrong with [John:] That's right. Yes. [Matt:] Look at, wonderful preacher. Did you No you never met did you? No. Gosh. [cough] [Jack:] What does it mean when it says it is the last time. [Matt:] Oh well [Janet:] Well it's the end of time, [Matt:] I says since the crucifi [Janet:] Looking for the Lord's coming aren't they? [Jack:] Since the crucifixion within the last time haven't they? [speaker005:] Mm. [Janet:] Yes. Yes. [Jack:] I think [Janet:] And we should be prepared for the er [Matt:] For the lord's c [Janet:] Lord's coming last time. [Matt:] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have thought so. [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] I would have thought so. [Jack:] See there's two words for time, one is Chronos and [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] the other is Chiros Chronos is time, chronological time, so that when you say the the coming of Christ the time of Christ is near. It means that it'll come sort of next week, or the week after or next year. [speaker005:] [sniff] [Jack:] That's Chronos. [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] But Chiros has a different and meaning of time all together. Time is is opportunity, it's occasion. It's er it's it's filled [Matt:] time. Yes. [Jack:] It's filled [Janet:] Yeah. [Jack:] chronological time. There's all the difference between live and being I Mean being time and being in God. Being in time and being in in the eternity. There's a quality of time and then there's just time. You just spend time, you waste time, you give [Janet:] Yeah I see. [Jack:] time away. But if you're wise you fill up time with what [Janet:] Mm. [Jack:] last. [Janet:] Yeah. [Jack:] Does anybody not understand what I'm trying to [speaker005:] Oh yes, yes. [Janet:] yes fully I think. [Matt:] It's another way, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. [Jack:] Yes yes. [Matt:] Fits into that doesn't it? [Jack:] Because this is the l this is very important time. It's [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] a very important [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] time. [Matt:] It can make you feel very guilty Jack. If you are to [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] worry too much about that because I often wished deliberately, where I could be doing something more productive for the lord. [Rita:] But don't you think you need to sit and be quite [John:] Well here again that's one of the arguments. Yeah. That's one of the arguments before [Rita:] Yeah. I think [John:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] You need to what please? [Rita:] Well you need to sit and be quite with the Lord as to keep doing for the Lord. [Jack:] Yes you do, yes yes. [Rita:] In fact it's wisdom comes into that [Jack:] Yes. Yes. [Rita:] doesn't it? [Dennis:] had er a who used time of course. [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] Of course. [] [Dennis:] He he was he's very keen on the use of time. [Matt:] He never wasted any did he? [Dennis:] No, it's very important, important is time. [Matt:] [whispering] [] [Jack:] The life above when this is past is a ripe fruit of Earth below. My favourite hymn. The life above, when this is past, is the ripe fruit of Earth below. [Matt:] Aha. The fruit of Earth below. [Jack:] Yes. Er [Matt:] The fruit of your works. [Jack:] Yes Yes yes. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] yes. [John:] Was it used to say keep keep saying buy up the time buy up the time? [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Mhm. [John:] used to keep saying that. [Jack:] the time. [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Buy the time out of the evil days. [Matt:] Yeah. Yeah. [Jack:] Very challenging. Very morally challenging. [Matt:] It is. [Pat:] Mhm. [Matt:] Right. Anything more on this? Then we've got the verses... Well b er verses nin [Jack:] Verses er [Matt:] Twenty twenty one. [Jack:] Twenty, you have an unction [Matt:] [reading] Ah, but you have of the holy one and all that you know, the truth and [] [reading] All of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth but because you do know that it and because no lie comes from that truth. [] So there you are, there's an interesting one, then unction as a holy ghost. [Alan:] What does it mean when it says you know all things. [Matt:] Well the spirit reveals it to you, that's what it's really saying isn't it? [Alan:] What does it mean? [Matt:] Pardon? [Alan:] I don't know all things. [Janet:] Well I suppose i it means that you know the difference between right and wrong cos we've only been We've been talking about it further up haven't we? [Alan:] Yes. [Janet:] Not being connected with the world, and being more spiritual. I suppose he means that. [Alan:] But you know all things, I mean [Matt:] Spiritual things. [Janet:] well no not [Alan:] spiritual kind of life and [speaker005:] Mm. [Alan:] What are the full powers he claims to have? What does he claim to Infallibility? [Matt:] Oh well that's what he claims. [Alan:] No no don't laugh at that, don't laugh at that. There is something infallible, that's what they that's what they're saying here, that's what he's saying. [Matt:] Well yes yes there's there's something infallible in i i i [Alan:] In the unction. [Matt:] Why in the unction, [Alan:] Yeah. [Matt:] a a a i i it's infallible Alan. [Alan:] Yes yes yes yes [Matt:] But that's not the difference of a f That's a different thing to what the p papal er interpretation is of [Alan:] Yes I'm not defending the pope at all. [Matt:] No. No no. That's an entirely different thing. [Alan:] But I am defending the fact that there is an [Matt:] Ooh definitely. [Alan:] in the Church. [Matt:] Yes. [Alan:] there's a an [Matt:] Yeah. Yes there is. [Alan:] We know in whom we have belief. [Matt:] That's right. [Alan:] We do know. [speaker005:] Yes. [Janet:] And that's the truth. [Alan:] That is the That is the last word. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Alan:] So we we have got that er that very important o knowing all things. I think it's wonderful. There's such a lot of er erm extraordinary sayings in this er epistle. [Matt:] Acts ten thirty What does Acts ten thirty eight say? [speaker005:] Say what? [Matt:] Acts ten, verse thirty eight. There are reference to that for for for verse twenty.... [Pat:] [reading] A God for Jesus of Nazareth, with the Holy Spirit and how he went around doing deed and healing all around him power of the devil, because God was with him. [] [Matt:] That's when g wh that's that's when God and Antichrist. Yeah well well yeah. [Pat:] God went out to Jesus. [Matt:] Er well he anoints us you see? Doing exactly the same thing.... [speaker005:] [cough]... [Matt:] Second [Rita:] Well I mean really the healing was their faith wasn't it? Of the [Matt:] The healing was done through the spirit. [Rita:] Yes but [Matt:] One [Rita:] change was [Matt:] Two Peter one twelve. Two Peter one twelve.... One twelve.... [reading] So I will always remind you of those things even though you know them as a firmly established in the truth. You ha [] Prophecy of scriptures. That's Peter. [reading] And therefore my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling an election sure. [] This is what you were saying about buying up the time, John in a way, isn't it? [John:] Yeah. [Matt:] [reading] For if you do these things you will never fall. [] In other words you will not slip up and fall from sin I suppose. [reading] And you will receive a rich welcome [] which 's hymn says doesn't it? [speaker005:] Hmm. [Matt:] [reading] into the eternal kingdom of our lord, the saviour, Jesus Christ. [] So so there [reading] I will always remind you [] Peter says, I will always remind you [reading] of this things that if you buy up the time [] [John:] Yes. [Matt:] [reading] even though you know [] Even although you know it. And they will e they will establish or continue to build it up. [John:] Yes yes. [Matt:] That's what it's really saying isn't it? [John:] Yes, keep on keep on [Matt:] Yeah. [John:] keeping on. [Matt:] [reading] I think it is right to refresh [] This is the job of the preacher really isn't it? Or the teacher. [reading] I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live, in the tent of his body. Because I know that I will soon put... it aside, as our Lord Jesus has made clear to me. [] So he must have been in Yeah, Aye. [reading] And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. [] So in other words I'll I'll raise up somebody to fill my shoes I suppose. [speaker005:] Yeah yeah. [Matt:] Marvellous isn't it? [Dennis:] Yeah. [Matt:] I think it's thrilling, I Any more comments? [sniff]... What verse are we up to now? Have we done twenty one yet? Yes we have [Dennis:] Yes. Twenty two [speaker005:] Mm. Mm. [Dennis:] really [Matt:] Yeah we've done that. [Dennis:] refer to it. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] Then we want the verse twenty two. [reading] No lie comes from the truth. [] Twenty one. [reading] Who who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the is the Christ. Such a man is the Antichrist. He denies the father and the son. [] Now who blatantly denies that Jesus is the Christ today?... I'm asking. [Janet:] All sorts of funny religions I should think. [speaker005:] [cough] [Janet:] Quite a few. [Rita:] Jehovah's Witnesses. [Matt:] I don't know whether they do or they don't. [Jack:] Could we Before we get today, could we say that these are the gnostics aren't [Matt:] Yes yeah yes the gnostics them. But [Jack:] are the gnostics of their time. [Matt:] Yeah. Because there was just as much unbelief then as there is now, Jack. [Janet:] Yeah. That's the way. [Jack:] Yes. Yes. [Matt:] That if If the enemy wasn't [Jack:] Yes. [Matt:] active wasn't it? [Rita:] Well a Jehovah's Witness came to my door and said er Jesus Christ was not the son of God. [Matt:] No. I think they said Jesus Christ is not [Janet:] Is not God. [Matt:] God. That's what they said. Oh they believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, alright. [Rita:] No. Not the [Matt:] Oh yes. [Rita:] way he put it. [Matt:] this is the j [Rita:] He he said he was a prophet. [Matt:] They don't they don't accept him They came here for years, [Rita:] Yeah. [Matt:] but I've forgotten what the teaching was. What was the teaching? [Rita:] on what he was saying. But that's how he put it [Matt:] Ye er there's [Janet:] but not equal with God. [Matt:] That's right. [Rita:] That's right. [Matt:] Son of God but but Er that's right. But the Mohammedians say it's impossible for Jesus to be the son of God because didn't have a wife, and it's as simple That's ex that's exactly how the Islamics view it. How on Earth can he be the son of God, because God didn't have a wife. And it takes a man and a women to produce a child. That's how the the Mohammedians see that. [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] S with the Jehovah's Witness, I don't whether they come under this category or not. [speaker005:] [cough] [Rita:] No I don't [speaker005:] [cough] [Alan:] I I read their Bible once and it said at the beginning, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was a god. [Sarah:] Yes. [Pat:] They believe in the divinitive God but not in the divinitive Jesus Christ. [Alan:] Yes yes, yes. word [speaker005:] [cough] [Alan:] not God but the word was a god, it's just that difference between a little G and a capital [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] That's right. is is the divine Christ. And in there's a there's there there's a similar confession in in Chapter five five. What does chapter five five say?... [Jack:] [reading] Who is he that overcometh the world. But he the believeth that Jesus is the son of God. [] [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] [reading] He that overcometh the world. But he believeth that Jesus is is the son of God. [] Well I would doubt if the Jehovah's Witness overcometh the world. Having nearly become one. Not in the [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] sense that you and I know it anyway. Overcoming the world. Pardon? [Sarah:] They're they're a religion that [speaker005:] [cough] [Sarah:] in erm in er organization. They worship their organization. [Matt:] Yeah but they're in no as well. They'll the the it's it's a law job isn't it? They try to keep the law. [Janet:] Their law. [Matt:] Yeah. Well they would say it's i i but but there are old testament type of belief, I think. [Jack:] Actually the er Jehovah Witnesses were some of the most er s strongly opposed to Hitler [Matt:] Oh yes. Oh yes, they were They were [Jack:] But they were very much more strongly opposed to him than were many orthodox Christians. [Matt:] Oh yes. Aye. The Jehovah's Witness they're opposed to all sorts of tyranny, the Jehovah's Witness. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] Look at Dr the leading Presbyterian was persecuted to the Jeho the Jehovah's Witness you know. They maybe even murdered them, I'm not too sure. [speaker005:] Yeah. Yeah. [John:] Cos they're against churches generally aren't they? [Matt:] Well the Antichrist is the church. [John:] Yes, yes. [Matt:] I used to go up past there believing the that the minister was the the represented the Antichrist. I did. I did. Because that's what they teach. [Rita:] Jehovah's Witnesses call Christendom the Whore of Babylon. [Matt:] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [Rita:] And that's us. [Matt:] Yeah. And that's and that's us. Yeah. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rita:] That's what they call [Matt:] Now [Rita:] us, Christendom. [Matt:] erm five six, this is the one who came by water. This is the part of the What what verse were we on? Because I've forgotten. [Jack:] We're on twenty two. [Janet:] Twenty two. [Matt:] No what verse? [Janet:] Twenty two. [Matt:] Twenty two aye. [speaker005:] two. [Matt:] This is the er er Jesus the Christ such a man is who denies him. And then my study Bible suggest that we read this. [reading] Water symbolizes Jesus' b baptism, and blood symbolizes his death. These are mentioned because Jesus's ministry began at his baptism and ended at his death. Who is reaching who is rea John is reacting to the heretics of his day, the gnostics. Who said that Jesus was born only a man and remains so until his baptism. [] I think [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] Jehovah's Witness don't say that. Ah. [reading] At that time they maintained that Christ the son of God descended on Jesus but left him before his suffering on the cross. So that it was only the man Jesus who died. Throughout this letter John has been insisting that Jesus Christ is God as well as man. He now asserts that it was this God-man Jesus Christ who came into our world, was baptized and died. Jesus was the son of God, not only at his baptism but also at his death. [] Is that thing still going? Can you see it going? Yeah, when it stops let me know cos I'll turn it over. [reading] This man this truth is extremely important, because if Jesus died only as a man, his sacrificial anointment would have been sufficient to take [] [Janet:] Would not [Matt:] [reading] Would not have been sufficient [] [Janet:] No. [Matt:] [reading] to take away the guilt of man's sin. [] [Janet:] That's right. [Matt:] [reading] The spirit would testifies That is the holy spirit testifies that Jesus is the son of God in two ways. The spirit Jesus is the son of God The spirit descended on Jesus at his baptism, and two he continues to confirm in the hearts of the believer the apostolic testimony that Jesus's baptism and death, verifies that he is the Christ, the son of God. [] [Jack:] I believe myself, that there is no conflict between the human and the divine. None at all. They are they are one. [Matt:] I don't know what you mean Jack, [Jack:] The human is divine and the divine is human. The spirit came upon Jesus at the baptism, upon a man, upon a man and it came upon him It raised him from the dead. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] On the cross as the son of God. And er I am I am a great great believer, but I feel out of that myself, as one of the things I'm feeling out of. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] The spirit is human and the spirit is divine. There's no con [speaker005:] [cough] [Jack:] There's no necessary conflict. We always associate humanity with sin, course we do [Janet:] Yes. [Jack:] and we mustn't do that. Real humanity before the fall [Matt:] Oh yes. [Jack:] was one with God. [Matt:] Yes it was. Yes. [speaker005:] Hmm. [Jack:] And that's what it was with Jesus Christ, it's one with God. [Matt:] Absolutely yes. [speaker005:] Mm. Mm. [Jack:] And that's what it should be with us. One with God. [speaker005:] Yes yes. [Janet:] Yes. [Matt:] But we won't let it a hundred percent till we're there will we? [Jack:] No, but we are human, which is a good thing. [Matt:] Yeah, cos I've heard some people stand up, pronounce that [Alan:] A lot of people find religion very artificial and er [Rita:] They do [Alan:] and and [speaker005:] [cough] [Alan:] I do. [speaker005:] Yes. [Rita:] That's right. [Alan:] Speak more about it then brother. [Jack:] Mm? [Alan:] Say some more about it. [Jack:] What? [Alan:] Enlarge on it. [Jack:] Well I I find all religion artificial. [Alan:] Yeah. [Janet:] He's talking to the word religion, aren't you? [Alan:] Yes. [Janet:] word religion. [Alan:] Yes. [Janet:] And that's [Jack:] Yes, well I never use that word actually myself, [Janet:] That's isn't it? Yes. [Jack:] I use the word spirit. [Janet:] Mm. [John:] Spirit? [Jack:] Spirit is human and divine? Do you believe in the divine? [John:] Well of course [Jack:] Yeah. [John:] I'm a Christian. [speaker005:] Mm. Yes. [Janet:] I think what you're saying Jack is a is a wonderful comforting feeling. And it gives one a peaceful feeling within [Jack:] Yes. [Janet:] That the naf that the natural and the divine are linked. [Jack:] That's why I feeling out of it I think. [Janet:] And I think this is er erm a peaceful feeling within us that we need to feel. We don't always want to be testing ourselves all the time, do we? [speaker005:] No. [Janet:] I don't think Christ meant us all the time to [Matt:] Testing ourself? [Janet:] Well we are. [speaker005:] We don't. [Janet:] We're we're [Matt:] Are we [John:] We don't [Janet:] Well we are to a point, you're saying well they're You feel guilty at times, that you're not doing enough. But [Matt:] I no I know I I ca I know I I I I I I [Janet:] isn't it? [Matt:] d I don't think I even I don't think I even feel Did I say guilty? Cos I don't think I do feel guilty. [Janet:] Well you did feel guilty, I think you said that. [Matt:] But I I I I I I don't know I er I I don't think I do feel guilty. I just say to myself. [LAUGHTER] [] I s Well [Janet:] That you could be doing more. [Matt:] But I'm quite happy not to. I think. I think so. [Janet:] Yes. where the guilt is. [Matt:] Yes.... Yes. Verse twenty four now is it? [Jack:] Thank you. [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. [] [Sarah:] Yes now that's dynamic isn't it? [Matt:] [reading] If it does, you will also remain in the son, and in the father and this is what he promised us even eternal life. [] [Jack:] You see the son and the father and you and all the names [Janet:] Yeah. [speaker005:] [cough] [Jack:] Isn't that lovely? [Matt:] It is. [Janet:] Yes. That's It is [Jack:] That's what I'm talking about really. [Janet:] Yeah. [Alan:] Seems to me that John is trying to er establish and and pursue the fact that Jesus Christ is [tape change] [Jack:] You you see if you think right back. In the in the very beginning of our Bibles er the the the prophets and all such people were wanting to establish the fact of God. God is spirit and then when Christ came, when he was born, people had difficulty, great difficulty in accepting him as being of God. [Matt:] Yes they did. They did. They did. [Jack:] And and this is what I think what John is trying to get over. [Matt:] Yes it is. [Jack:] I think so. [Matt:] Yeah. [Jack:] Yes he's [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] trying to establish the fact that Jesus is God. [Matt:] That's right. [speaker005:] Mm. [John:] A and that and that he he was born God and that died on the cross as God. Cos there cos there was [speaker005:] Yes yes yes well of course. [John:] those other Whatever they called them Galatians were were saying that he was only God from his baptism to Not on the cross, before the cross. [Dennis:] You see I Jesus all sort man. [Janet:] Yes because he was man and spirit wasn't he? [speaker005:] Yes of course [Dennis:] God and [speaker005:] He must have been. [Janet:] He was the link from both of us. [Alan:] But I think the the the hardest thing is to accept the fact that he is God. We we we know [Matt:] But [Alan:] that he we've [Matt:] but but but [Alan:] got the record of his birth and his growing up. His development. [Janet:] human form. [Matt:] But yes but e e but er but when the spirit quickens you as an individual, at least I had no doubt that he was good. Immediately. [Jack:] You see the word man is ambiguous. We're all men, if the ladies will excuse me saying that, we're all men and men are human. We're all human. But are we human really? Are we human enough? Are we really human, right through? but Jesus [Matt:] But [Jack:] Jesus was human, right through. [Matt:] Yeah. [Janet:] Yeah. [Jack:] He was a man, the man the capital man. [Matt:] We're imperfect anyway aren't we? [Jack:] Yes. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] Imperfect. But the capital man, and [speaker005:] [cough] [Jack:] God, there is nothing to distinguish between [Matt:] No. [Jack:] them. [Matt:] No. [Jack:] They're one. [Matt:] Yeah. [Jack:] I and the father, Jesus said, are one. And er I I you are going to be in thee and I going to thee in you. And then he spoke to his disciples, wonderful unity. I think it's fantastic that. [Matt:] Yes isn't it? [Jack:] Very comforting. [Janet:] It is. [Jack:] It's comforting to me. [Matt:] And John says I'm writ [Janet:] Yeah, it is to me as well. [Matt:] He says I'm writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. [speaker005:] Mm. [Janet:] Mm. [speaker005:] Yes yes. [Matt:] Now you see,i isn't isn't it remarkable that the Jehovah's Witness tried to lead us astray, but the minute Christ came in they were wasting their time. Jehovah's Witness isn't it? They came for six months after seven day wonder, something had happened to us. But er they realized Now and every time I she'll ask me, and she'll say. [LAUGHTER] Er Where were we? Verse twenty seven is it? [Sarah:] Yes. [Matt:] [reading] Ask for you the anointing you receive from him remains in you. [] [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] [reading] And you do not need anyone to teach you. [] Now this is Some people would take that literally. And proclaim that literally. But it doesn't mean exactly what it's saying does it? [Janet:] No. No. [Matt:] [reading] But as his anointed teache er as his anointing teachers you [] [speaker005:] All things. [Matt:] [reading] about all things, and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit, just as it has taught you, remain in him. [] we've met people who would say read your Bible, holy spirit [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] very quickly. [Janet:] [LAUGHTER] And you don't need u go to church and listen to the preacher. [] [Matt:] No. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Janet:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear. [] [Matt:] So [Janet:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear. [] [Matt:] that is a real Aye. So we're back to the anointing there aren't we? [Janet:] Can I read that verse in my Bible? [Matt:] Yes. [Janet:] [reading] But the anointing, which ye had received of him, abideth in you, and ye need not [LAUGHTER] have any man teach you [] [reading] but as the same anointed teachers you all things, and is truth and is no lie and even as it have taught you, ye shall abide in him. [] [Matt:] Yes. And that's the secret, we should read the word and let the word read us. [Janet:] Hmm. [Matt:] That's another way of putting it isn't it? [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] Let the words read us, cos it's God reading us isn't it? [Janet:] Mm. [Jack:] Of course God does speak to us through humans beings. [Matt:] He does. [speaker005:] Yes. [Jack:] People and they're not only preachers or teachers or so on [Janet:] Yeah, that's right. [Jack:] but er. You We learn a lot from one another actually. [Rita:] I was going to say [Jack:] That's the idea of this meeting isn't it? [Matt:] Gosh [Rita:] And also the experiences of life. [Matt:] That's right. [Jack:] Yeah. Yes, yes. [Rita:] Which is more so isn't it? [Jack:] Yes. [Matt:] Oh gosh, aye. We would be we would be Still be very immature if we didn't have one another, wouldn't we? [Jack:] Yes, indeed [Janet:] Yes. [Jack:] Michael, when he was at s When he was at school, he won a scholarship to university, when he got to the university he said as if he'd made a great discovery. He said Dad, there's a lot of people know a lot more than we do. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] already the intellectual. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Very touching tribute to humility. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] Yes, very good. [Matt:] And the [Janet:] Of the natural world. [Jack:] Eh? [Janet:] Of the natural world. [Jack:] Yes that's true of the spiritual world to isn't it? [Janet:] I thought in your case it would be more the natural. [Matt:] Now where are we? Verses the last two verses innit? [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] And now dear children [] You see we're back to the children again aren't we? [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] continue in him so that when he appears we may be confident [] That's good isn't it? Confident. [reading] and unashamed before him, at his coming. [] Right? [reading] If you know that he is righteous you will know that everything everyone who does what is right has been born of him. [] That's the test that's the test isn't it? [Sarah:] It's very hard [Matt:] That's the test isn't it? [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] has some interesting comments to make about these two verses. Well he's got a a a comment verse twenty seven the anointing. [reading] You have received the anointing of God's holy spirit, he is your teacher, the spirit of truth who will guide you into all truth. He will teach you everything. Jesus promises that. And what does the holy spirit teach you? It teaches you remain in him [] In other words remain in his word and let it remain in you. Live in Jesus keep walking in his way, looking to him who is the author and perfector of our faith. Not looking back or down or in but up to him. And the outcome And now dear children, verse twenty eight, [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] [reading] You have been crucified with Christ. The old nature has been crucified, the new has come. Behold all things are new. So that it is no longer you who live but Christ [] [Janet:] Mhm. [Matt:] [reading] who lives himself through you. As you live in his righteousness and holiness, by his spirit and presence within you, so you [] That's us. [reading] may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. [] When he comes back again, which he will come to judge the the quick and the dead. And the blood of Jesus This is marvellous isn't it? The blood of Jesus washes your shame away, because [Janet:] Yes. [Matt:] he has accepted and forgiven you. It is marvellous isn't it? [Rita:] Yes [speaker005:] Mm. [Rita:] that's wonderful. [Matt:] Can't loose. Can't e you can't loose [LAUGHTER] in this [] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] Aye. Marvellous isn't it? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] So that's completed chapter [Alan:] Two. [Matt:] Two. What time did you say you were going Jack? [Jack:] Oh well it depends on the light. I I'll go about ten to nine, five to nine. Ten or five to nine. [Dennis:] Another quarter of an hour. [Jack:] Eh? [Alan:] Another quarter of an hour. [Jack:] Yes, got another quarter of an hour. [Matt:] So we move on to chapter three. [Jack:] You needn't stop because I'm gone. [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] Chapter three. Would somebody like to to read the first two verses of chapter three? [Sarah:] [reading] How great is the lord the father has lavished on us that we should be called children of God? And that is what we are. the reason the world doesn't know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends now we are children of God and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears we shall be like him for we shall him as he his. Everyone will have this hope in him [] [speaker005:] Yes. [Sarah:] [reading] purifying himself just as he is pure. [] [Janet:] That's wonderful, [Matt:] Isn't that marvellous isn't it? [Sarah:] Yes. [Rita:] And I love the word hope there don't you? [speaker005:] Yeah. Yes. Good isn't it? [Matt:] See Yes yeah. but rightful You can't get away from that about the about the creation can you? It's it's brought us back to J to John one again hasn't it? The first verse in John goes [reading] In the beginning, [] Genesis one, [reading] was the word. The Greeks used this term not only of the spoken word but also of the unspoken word. The word still in the mind. [] That's interesting isn't it? [reading] The reasoning, when they [] [reading] applied it to the universe, they meant the rational, the [] [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] [reading] principle that governs all things. Jews, on the other hand, used it as a way of referring to God. Thus John used the term that was mean meaningful to both Jews and Gentiles with God. The word was distinct from the father was God. Jesus was God in the fullest sense. [] [speaker005:] ... [Matt:] I'm on John twelve, the sons of God, [reading] He gave the right, the membership in God's family, is by grace alone. [] Cos you remember last week we accounted for er [reading] He was in the world, and although the world was made through him the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, [] that's in other words that was the Jews wasn't it? [reading] But the Jews did not receive him, yet to all [] That's Jews and Gentiles, [reading] who received him to those who believed in his name he gave the right to become the children of God. And that was, children born not of natural descent nor of human decision, or a husband. But born of God. [] In other words, born this been born again. [speaker005:] Born again. [Matt:] Marvellous isn't it?... [Jack:] [reading] Many shall appear who shall be like him [] [reading] but we shall see him as he is. [] Do you understand that? [Matt:] Verse whe What verse is that? [Jack:] Two isn't it? [Matt:] [reading] Are we a children of God and that we will be as not yet been made known but we but we know that when he appears we shall be like him. [] In spiritually speaking anyway. [reading] For we shall see him as yet I should imagine it's a spiritual condition isn't [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] it? [Jack:] It's extraordinary isn't it? be changed by just looking at it? [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] Just by seeing it. [Matt:] Now Colin's got a er another dissertation about verses one and two here. [reading] That is the glorious promise of what you shall be. [] verses one and two. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rita:] Yeah. [Matt:] [reading] You can't imagine what it will be like, but when the day of the lord comes [] People don't realize that that the lord's coming back, and they'll be a day of judgement. They don't do they? They never think about it? but when the day of the lord comes, you shall be like because you've been born gain in his [Janet:] Yeah. [Matt:] spirit. [Janet:] Mhm. [Matt:] [reading] That's why we'll be like him. All those things about your soul that you kn know dishonour him, shall be swept away. [] We got The rubbish won't it? [reading] You shall be like him because you shall see him as he is. [] [speaker005:] He is. Mm. [Matt:] [reading] Somehow that moment will completely [] on about, wasn't it? [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] will complete the work of perfection, that [] [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] God has planned for you and me. God's anointing remains in you, his spirit teaches you, you're to remain in the spirit [] In other words living in Christ. [reading] The father has lavished his love upon you my making you his child. You will be confident and unashamed before Jesus at his coming. When he appears you shall be like him, for you shall see him as he is. [] Now that's the promises. [speaker005:] Mm. [Janet:] Yeah. [Matt:] Marvellous isn't it? [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] Gosh. [reading] Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he is pure, [] That's that's Colin goes on to say, [reading] because you shall be like him does not mean that you are to care little about how much of him can be seen in your life. [] Now, [reading] far from it because because he is pure you are to seek purity of heart [] [reading] and now. Purity of mind and thought. [] [Rita:] Yeah. [Matt:] [reading] Purity of desire and affection, purity of life and action. Living the holy of God's holy people in the power of the holy spirit. [] [speaker005:] Yes. Mm. [Matt:] Marvellous isn't it? [Jack:] Hope hope purifies. [Matt:] Yes. [Rita:] Yes I [Matt:] Pur [Rita:] think that [Matt:] Isn't that marvellous? isn't it? [Rita:] I went to listen to him at the methodist church at er Newark about Oh quite a few years when [Matt:] Oh. [Rita:] I just came As [Matt:] Oh aye, Colin? [Rita:] you know I only wish I could have heard him [Matt:] Colin at the Methodist? [Rita:] Yes, he was at the Methodist. You know that very large church at Newark? [Matt:] Was he in there? [Rita:] Yes he'd but no at at erm [Alan:] No Dennis you've got the wrong place. [Rita:] Mansfield. [speaker005:] Ah. [Rita:] have very large Ma er church [speaker005:] street. [Dennis:] Bridge Street. [Rita:] and I I was taken to it by friends. [Matt:] Yeah. [Rita:] And I heard him and do you know, he was powerful, the way he [Matt:] Ooh er [Jack:] Who is this? [Matt:] Colin [Rita:] who'd erm Colin [Matt:] He lives at [Rita:] Who erm [Matt:] He's an Anglican [Sarah:] Matt's reading from. [Rita:] And erm but it was most inspiring But I would appreciate it even more now [speaker005:] Yeah. [Janet:] Mm. [Rita:] than ten years ago. [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] And then verses five to six. You know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And then in him In him is no sin. No one who lives in heaven keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or knows him. Colin goes on to say, there is no sin in Jesus, [] You were saying Jack. [reading] for sin is whatever opposes God. [] Now there's an interpretation of sin. [speaker005:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] If you live in heaven you live in the sinless It would be totally inconsistent, therefore, to pers to persist in your sinful ways, opposing God in your life. [] Now the Galatians said it was okay to do that. [reading] Those who claim faith in Jesus but do not demonstrat [] This is what Our friends John. [reading] but do not demonstrate a life that is lived for him [] [Rita:] Yes. [Matt:] [reading] Do not truly know or love him. [] [Rita:] Faith without deeds. Yes that's [Janet:] Mm. [Rita:] right. [Matt:] [reading] The power of sin [] [Rita:] Matt. [Matt:] [reading] no longer grips, [] [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] [reading] our life. Even though you can still sin. [] [Janet:] Mm. [Rita:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] You no longer have to. [] [speaker005:] Mm. No.... [Jack:] Grace transform the fate. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] Grace transform the faith? [Dennis:] No the fate. [Matt:] Fate. Yes. Yeah.... [cough] [whistling] Verse five is it now? [Rita:] Four. [Matt:] Is it? F Well i did five and six just now. [Dennis:] Yes well then there's seven isn't it? [Matt:] Seven. [reading] Dear children do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right, is righteous just as he [] [speaker005:] is [Matt:] [reading] is righteous. [] [Dennis:] Just as Christ is righteous? [Matt:] Yes, yeah. [reading] He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil [] [reading] has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. Verses nine. No one This is a hard one, this you know. [Janet:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] No one who is born of God will continue to sin. Because God's seed remains [] [reading] in him. He can't go on sinning because his he has been born of God. [] [Janet:] Of God. This what I asked you the other week. When you say when [Matt:] We do. We do [Janet:] to be sinners. [Matt:] But we do sin. [Janet:] We're we're free We should be free. [Matt:] Should be but we do. [Rita:] I think we just [Sarah:] No and we make mistakes Matt, but we don't willingly sin. [John:] I don't know, myself. We certainly don't need to sin. [speaker005:] No. [John:] No. [Janet:] I mean, if it's pointed out to us by the lord we we try and overcome that don't we? [speaker005:] Yes, [Janet:] Whatever it is. [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] [reading] God has made you righteous. [] [speaker005:] And you [Matt:] [reading] And you can do what is right in his sight. You are no longer a child of the Devil, in rebellion against God. You no longer need to persist in sin. Jesus has destroyed the devil's work and delivered you from the power of sin. God lives in you by the power of his spirit and he will guide you into truth, life and peace. Not sin. If you follow his leading in your life, you will not persist in your sin. [] Is that what you're saying, Janet? [Janet:] Mm. [speaker005:] not in your head. [Matt:] This [Pat:] don't understand it. [Matt:] Well this [Rita:] but you don't s persist in sin do you? Don't really want to sin. [Matt:] No you don't. you don't. But sometimes we slip up Pat. [Rita:] Yeah, we slip [Pat:] Yeah. [Matt:] [reading] This does not mean that you will never sin [] Right? [Pat:] Mm. [Matt:] This is what you're saying isn't it? [Pat:] Mm. [Matt:] [reading] but if you if you desire to glorify God then you will not willingly or wilfully persist. [] [speaker005:] Mm. [Sarah:] This is it, yeah that's it. [Janet:] That's the way of putting it, isn't it? We know the difference and we are aware [Matt:] right away doesn't it? [Pat:] But to think that we do it [Sarah:] Yes [Matt:] Yeah. [reading] When God points out your fault you will come ready to him and repent in his in [] [speaker005:] [cough] [Matt:] because we get back to the first chapter, verse nine. I was never out of that for the first few years I was saved, I was always getting in there, [LAUGHTER] confessing my sins. [] [LAUGHTER] Nearly wore the carpet our in the bathroom. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] Getting down to [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] [LAUGHTER] [] [Jack:] I remember one, David said, you remember too, after he had committed that terrible [Matt:] Yeah. [Jack:] crime and it was with her husband. He said I was born sin. And I said excuse. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] presumably God [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] accepts [Janet:] Yes I wanted to say that. [Jack:] I was born in sin and shapen in iniquity. [speaker005:] Yeah. Yes. [Jack:] That's the excuse he gave. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] And it wasn't rejected. I think it's part of our nature. We are born in sin. [Matt:] We are. [Jack:] We are shapen in iniquity [Matt:] Yeah yeah, we are. [speaker005:] Mm. [Jack:] And there's a conscience as well as a There's an unconscious, As well as a conscious drive in us, which often is not very good. [Matt:] There's a force within us, [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] which will lead us on to resisting Christ, [speaker005:] Yes. Yes. [Rita:] Yes, that's right. [Matt:] A a and when you're born again, that's really we but that power without doubt has been broken. [Janet:] It's destroyed. [Matt:] But it's that It Well not not entirely [speaker005:] not destroyed broken [Rita:] It's been broken. [Matt:] It's been broken and that [Rita:] Mm. [Matt:] and that's marvellous isn't it? [Rita:] Yes. [Matt:] Because i because people will hate you and I because they don't hate us [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] but they hate Christ. [Pat:] Yes. That's right. Mm [Matt:] It's a It's tremendous isn't it? [Pat:] It's the hauteur isn't it? [Matt:] Pardon? [Pat:] It's the hauteur. [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] And I've had to believe in the power of the subconscious as well as my own responsibilities, [Matt:] Yes, yes. [Jack:] but there is a power of the subconscious. [Matt:] Yes. [Jack:] There's a power of the unconscious I think, I think. [Matt:] Power of the unconscious? [Jack:] Power of the unconscious. [Matt:] I would have thought so. [Jack:] Yes yes. In other words for er si the heart is deceitful. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Matt:] Very deceitful. [Rita:] But don't you think Jack, all stress should be taken out of it? [Matt:] All stress [Rita:] Yes because [Matt:] should be taken out of [Rita:] Yes, of ourselves because we should be in a peaceful. Surely we should be in a joyous peaceful [yawn] [Matt:] Yeah, if we could if we could be working really in the spirit at all times, yes. [Jack:] Yes yes yes. [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] If we were really working in Christ all the time, yes [Rita:] I think Yes but I I think God's got the pattern for us [Matt:] Yes he has, providing we can work really in Him, all the time. [Pat:] But this is where we fall short [Rita:] Exactly [Matt:] We fall short, Oh we're we are [Rita:] Yes [Matt:] we are joint we are an equal with Christ, a joint with him, [Rita:] Mm. I know, but I feel we should stress the peace that that we're given. [Matt:] Yes, well we are given peace [Jack:] We should stress [speaker005:] Yeah. [Jack:] the power. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rita:] And the power, [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rita:] And the grace we're given [Jack:] Yes, oh yes. [Rita:] And the love we're given. [Jack:] That's right, hit again [Rita:] This is the this is thing we should be [Matt:] That's the message, that's the message. [Rita:] That's right. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rita:] And I mean [Matt:] That's what the the preacher should be [Rita:] this is what you want to say to other people isn't it? [Matt:] That's right [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] And that's what the preacher should be [Rita:] Oh they say to me have you seen the sins of the world? Have you [speaker005:] That's it. [Rita:] seen what Bosnia's like? [speaker005:] That's it go on [Rita:] Have you what this is like? [speaker005:] And be positive. [LAUGHTER] [Matt:] That was Henry's idea Hen Henry always never talk and spoke about sin. He tal he spoke [Rita:] I know [Matt:] about the love of God. [Rita:] Exactly and I feel [speaker005:] Yes Yeah. Yeah. [Rita:] I think we all feel like this don't we? We want to stress the love that He's changed our lives. [Matt:] Yeah but how can How do you prove it to somebody else if they don't haven't known it? [Rita:] Don't ask me Matt, I've been sitting talking for many long days [Matt:] No no. It's i i i [Rita:] and and sometimes I think to myself, would I love this person that i'm talking to, to become a believer of Christ? And I say to myself, what a long way they've got to go. [Matt:] Well it's only it's only a er er It's only the the the journey from the mind to the heart. [Rita:] Yeah but it's the growing isn't it? [Matt:] Well no, it's an instantaneous journey for many. [Rita:] Oh I do hope so, cos I've never [Matt:] Yeah. [Rita:] seen it [Matt:] Yeah. [Rita:] really. [Matt:] Yeah. [Rita:] I've never never seen or witnessed that. [Matt:] You would you would say you were a gradual conversion? [Rita:] Mm. I'm still like it now. [Matt:] Yeah. Yeah. Well I wasn't, I was an instantaneous conversion. [Rita:] Mm. [Jack:] still making slow progress aren't you? [Matt:] Oh yes. But I was an instantaneous conversion. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Rita:] Yes. [Jack:] You're still making? [Rita:] Yes. [Pat:] I think everybody progresses, [speaker005:] Yeah. [Pat:] all their lives. [Jack:] We are whether you're [Sarah:] to your journey's end [Jack:] suddenly or slowly [speaker005:] Yes. [Matt:] Yeah, you are. More so than what you think. [Jack:] Does the lord wind up hill all the way, the very end. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] I must leave now, don't stop now, please carry on. [Matt:] Well I think it's time to stop now. [Jack:] God bless. [Janet:] it does tend to if you [Pat:] Bye bye Jack, take care [Matt:] Bye bye Jack [Rita:] got your mac on his chair. [Matt:] How do we stop this? [tape change]

[speaker002:] Right do have a seat. [speaker001:] I think you're sending for all my things aren't you? From er Hospital or what ever. [speaker002:] Let's have a look, they've all come back from [speaker001:] Oh lovely. [speaker002:] How about that? I don't know what he's been up to, [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] through the nose, but we've got them all back at any rate, so Where are we at the moment?... How are you in yourself? [speaker001:] Eh, I'm not bad I ah but I've I've improved all while I mean i have got, you know [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] I can get about a bit, I'm not er hobbling as much, as l as long as I take my time I'm not too bad. I'm getting, you know I'm getting there. [speaker002:] Yeah. Good. [speaker001:] Without a doubt. [speaker002:] Good. When they last saw you they they were actually quite pleased, weren't they? [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah There's definitely an improvement. [speaker002:] supple, good rotation, reflexes, knee jerks, muscle power and sensation, no visible wasting. So er they're really quite pleased with you. It's just really time, isn't it? [speaker001:] This is it. [speaker002:] That's got you better and better and better. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, it's getting there [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] I'm we're definitely getting there, it's just taking [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] a bloody long while. [cough] [speaker002:] what job do you normally do? [speaker001:] Er miner. [cough] [speaker002:] Face worker? [speaker001:] Er development worker. [speaker002:] Oh so all bits of everything and everywhere. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Right. Now what are we going to do about work, because it's now erm twenty fourth of August. You've been off for a while. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] We've got three choices, we can either... say let's give it a go back at your original job, and it might be a bit job. We can say we're going to have to keep you off for a bit longer yet. Or we can say, why don't we push British Coal, let's see if you can get you back to work doing something different. Before you go back. But I don't know what the opportunities are there. [speaker001:] None. [speaker002:] None at all? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Well that's not a that that's not Which pit are you at? Yeah, they're a bit inflexible at times I find. So [speaker001:] Very much so [speaker002:] Some of the others are brilliant, they do all sorts [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] of things [speaker001:] But 's not that way inclined. [speaker002:] No, oh well. [speaker001:] Never have been. [speaker002:] Oh well. We'll have to we'll have to [speaker001:] They're very argumentative little [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] buggers. [speaker002:] I'd of thought you you won't be ready from from the latest report. What are you like first thing in the morning? [speaker001:] Terrible. [speaker002:] Stiff? [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] I've got to work into it gradually. [speaker002:] Yeah. What's it How long's it take it to get going? [speaker001:] Realistically? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Hour and a half. [speaker002:] That's actually not bad though, is it? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] That's certainly a lot better than you have [speaker001:] But [speaker002:] been. [speaker001:] Yes. But there again. After I've been up and about for [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] a while then it starts again. [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] And I've gotta sort of sit down. It's [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] fits and starts, I've gotta [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] vary it between getting about, sitting up, standing up, sitting down. It's we it it's I mean some days are better than others. [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] You know, and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and the periods of of being good are getting longer. [speaker002:] Good. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Right, so [speaker001:] As I say I'm def definitely getting there, I know I am in myself. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'm sleeping a little bit better. Not waking up so much during night,wi [speaker002:] Excellent. [speaker001:] with pain and that. I'm, I'm getting there it's just taking a long while. [speaker002:] Waterworks and bowels? [speaker001:] I'm alright. [speaker002:] No numbness or tingling? [speaker001:] No no. I've [speaker002:] good. [speaker001:] lost a bit more weight, not a lot. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] I've lost about another five pounds [speaker002:] Excellent. Excellent. Doing your exercise? [speaker001:] Yes yes. [speaker002:] All going the right way innit? [speaker001:] Yes I'm getting there, I know I know I know myself I'm getting there, it's just Like say, it's just taking a bloody long while. [speaker002:] Yeah. Well I can't predict how long it's going to be now and y and you may find, [speaker001:] Well no, no obviously not [speaker002:] in another few weeks hard work and you'll feel very What I'll do is if I give you a note for a further two months, and we can... Is your job safe? [speaker001:] Well, whose jobs safe? [speaker002:] But they're not muttering about laying you off if you're [speaker001:] Well they no not not now. [speaker002:] Well that's okay. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No, I didn't think they would be. So if I put, [speaker001:] I think they'd have a battle on their hands if they did. Union are a little bit they won't let that happen. [speaker002:] Good. Continues to improve... with exercise. Okay? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] bit optimistic. [speaker001:] Well I am. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. I've been trying. I've been I mean I've been trying to give our a bit of a hand whenever i can, in [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] I mean I'm not. I think I'm in way more than help but it it does me good. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You know, and I I I don't think it's it's [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] hurting me doing it. You know. Just a bit of serving and this that and other, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you know, just a Oh yeah, Oh. [speaker002:] Watch Watch the lifting. [speaker001:] Oh by I'm nothing [speaker002:] the lifting, just just reaching a can of beans off the bottom shelf and you [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [speaker002:] know that sort of [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] thing. [speaker001:] You know but it's it's doing me good I think, [speaker002:] Good. [speaker001:] you know. I think so anyway. [cough] [speaker003:] Right, thank you [tape change]

[speaker001:] I've come of a new please. [speaker002:] Let's have a look. This is the Noraday yeah. [speaker001:] Noraday yeah. [speaker002:] Everything okay on that? [speaker001:] Yeah, fine yeah. [speaker002:] Periods behaving? [speaker001:] Erm sometimes I have a a good period, like [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I used to on er [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] other pill. [speaker002:] yeah that's right. [speaker001:] But sometimes I don't have one or [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] sometimes it's just one [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] day. [speaker002:] Yeah, a bit erratic? [speaker001:] Er Yeah. But [speaker002:] Right, okay. [speaker001:] no problem at all. [speaker002:] Yes, that can happen on Noraday Waterworks? Bowels? Breasts? [speaker001:] Yeah fine. [speaker002:] All behaving? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Right, now what we do need to do today is to get your blood pressure checked. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] How are things going on from the other point of view? [speaker001:] Erm it get's [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] a bit off still. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. we h we still haven't heard anything. [speaker002:] From the psychologist? [speaker001:] Er no, go to see him. [speaker002:] you've you've got from them, certainly. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] But you're still in limbo as far as the [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the civil action is concerned? [speaker001:] Erm even no second inquest, nothing. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] But er apparently got a solicitor. Er we haven't had to see anybody about that and he sent us a letter saying that he'd like to see us and we went and he says it there might not be a second inquest. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Might go straight to court. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] And then we had a phone call from the police, about a month ago. [speaker002:] Oh right, good. [speaker001:] Saying that it had gone straight to court, it was in court, you know, [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] but we haven't heard anything. [speaker002:] Oh well I mean they may have been adjourned or a [speaker001:] Even though [speaker002:] it may have been referred to a higher court. [speaker001:] You think so. Erm [speaker002:] I mean we we haven't heard anything directly, I'm only glad that the police are actually telling you something. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] It it was a big shock that day, when we had that phone call [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But it was I You know, to know that you haven't got to fight, [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] T to take him to court. Erm [speaker002:] But it's a long process. I mean we have dealings with solicitors for all sorts of things, asking for reports and we send a lot of notes away to have a lot of er medical opinion reports and they take ages to come back. And that's a These are the preliminary things that the solicitor must go through before they get near court, so [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the people [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] who it's actually They're actually dealing with are waiting months and months and months and er [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it looks like that in your case. We we may well have to provide the medical report on your behalf, yet. [speaker001:] God. [speaker002:] But n no-one has approached me to do so. [speaker001:] No no. [speaker002:] So er But it wouldn't surprise me if some sort of medical report on how you are doesn't reach court. [speaker001:] It erm Mr who we see Psychologist erm The first week I went to see him, Oh. It t d certainly, you know erm [speaker002:] Yeah. It's very [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] hard. [speaker001:] We Do you know when we start doing something, we'll do it and even if we do things different gonna say? We thinking well why are we doing it this way? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So er everything's pulling at us, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you know. W we seem as though we do something and we W we are absolutely drained, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you get We want to push ourselves. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] But do you know, once we start doing something w we're just drained all the while. [speaker002:] In some ways you're in limbo cos you've you've got nothing to aim towards. You've [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] got I mean if Even if you had a date to aim towards, even if it was six months hence, at least that would help you, you could [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] aim towards it and work towards it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But er and I think it's most unfair on you two really and the whole thing. And you you come off worse than anyone else and er but there's no real way of speeding that up, they can't give [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] dates and they can't say what's going to happens they have to go through, sift the evidence, arrange it all in a certain order, and then go and [speaker001:] Rachael, she's coming home Well she was she was discharged Friday from hospital. [speaker002:] Mm. Oh right. [speaker001:] And er they thought Thursday they'd have to do an operation on her by taking a piece of bone from her hip, [speaker002:] Mhm. and putting it in the leg. But they said it was knitting together lovely. Good good. [speaker001:] But then they took the pins out, [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] let her go home Friday, discharged her the day after. She'd put too much weight on it, and she's back in hospital, she's broke it. [speaker002:] Well they'll probably have to put at least the bone in there, it's a bone graft. [speaker001:] They've put it in plaster at the moment. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] But s you know she she's mending, it's erm She she's coming okay, I think [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You know to see her as well, that's som you know [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But we don't go as often now. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Erm,... [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Lovely, and [speaker002:] Th The six packets of Noraday [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] [cough] Your smear is due in December. Now I'm going to leave that with you. If you really don't feel like coming up for a smear at that time, that's fine and we'll understand why. And w There's an awful lot [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] of pressure on you from an awful lot of other sources, so don't worry about it. And [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But er you are actually officially due in December and obviously we'd like [speaker001:] Is that me three years? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [cough] We'd like [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to get that done. [speaker001:] Yeah. Don't seem like three years. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh, no I'm sure. The psychologist of course will continue to see you. And if [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you want to pop in and have a chat with me in between that's fine, but I'm not here next week. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] So that's that. Er and I hope everything goes a smoothly as possible. If there are any medical reports to do, we'll get them done as soon as possible but you know,a is that's very much out of our hands, and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] we can only wait on your solicitors, their solicitors, there's the police, the court, the entire system. [speaker001:] You see we haven't notified any solicitor at all, it was [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] just when we got back off holiday we'd got a letter from [speaker002:] Well it's If the police are doing the prosecuting then you may [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] not have to bother [speaker001:] Well it it Apparently there is a clause in Lee's insurance er that got the solicitor, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and he notified us [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] and he said he would b represent. But then he mentioned, when we wen to see him, he says we will deal with this but you must get somebody for civil [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] action. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And we asked him if he did civil action. [speaker002:] Oh right, yeah. [speaker001:] And he said yes he'd [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] he would You know he hasn't g The records haven't got to be released then to [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] anybody else. he he will be able to get them. But it's just hoping that everything goes right, but at least we haven't got to fight for prosecution. [speaker002:] No no. That should go through, but er it's a question of when it's going to be though. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. Do they usually take time like this? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yes. Things from er data whenever can take ages and ages and ages to And you know doctors get sued every now and again, perish the thought, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh [] [speaker002:] Perish the thought but when [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] y w you when you keep hearing reports in the medical journals about doctors being sued, and it can be several years after the event that the case comes to court. Now it won't be that long in your case, but it just goes to show how lengthy the whole thing can be. [speaker001:] Yea yeah yeah. [speaker002:] And it's er [speaker001:] But it's so [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] much hurt, you know. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] but Pete he he still getting up very early, he doesn't sleep [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] very good. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. I mean in some ways [speaker001:] And [speaker002:] I think he's more effected by it than you. And [speaker001:] I Like erm Psychologist said erm [speaker002:] there's a lot of anger there isn't there? [speaker001:] Yeah. He says I'm still with denial, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and Pete knows it's happened. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I erm If i try not to give way, it leaves so much up here [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I can keep thinking it's not happened. [speaker002:] Yeah. That's right. But [speaker001:] You know. But [speaker002:] wor working through it all, it's very very painful. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And it's easier in the short term not to have In the long term you get more problems. [speaker001:] Yea yeah. I I've found that. You know, like I say, I try to do some things different, and then that don't work sometimes cos I think well why am I doing 'em like that. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I wouldn't be doing this if it hadn't happened. Do you do you [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Do you now what I mean? [sniff] So like you say it can cause [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] that few more problems. But erm probably if we wasn't so much and [speaker002:] Mm. I think he 'd be [speaker001:] I think sometimes he's still being protective. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] He's still being protective. [speaker002:] Mm. That's right. [speaker001:] And erm Dunno. The police i know, went to see Rachael, and they still can't understand why he didn't use an islander, you know? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] And it's just unbelievable. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But everybody's allowed a mistake but when you've got a big articulated lorry, [speaker002:] Bit of drastic mistake to make. [speaker001:] You know if you You know I can't stop feeling as though that morning he used that lorry as a weapon. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You know. Er I don't I think as it goes on y you do start and get that anger that anger so bad, but erm But I'll leave you to get on Doctor. [LAUGHTER] And [tape change]

[speaker001:] Right James, let's have a look at this finger. [speaker002:] Thumb. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Thumb. Well it is a finger of sorts. What have you managed to do to it? Oh dear, oh dear, [speaker002:] I don't now what he's done to it. [speaker001:] oh dear. [speaker002:] It were a bit swollen yesterday and he's been in bed day, when he's got up this morning that's how [speaker001:] Now that is not very nice is it James? [speaker002:] I don't know why doing it.... [speaker001:] Is that very painful in there? [James:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, Sit yourself down. [speaker002:] Sit down. [speaker001:] [cough] If you look at the finger, if you draw a little picture from the side,... nail coming out there okay. and in here you've got some bones... okay? [James:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So this joint here is this joint here, and there's the nail. Now what you've got is a really cute infection. It started around the edge of the nail I should think, and that's where they usually go. But this has spread quite rapidly, it can't really go beyond here, cos the skin is quite tight. It's quite tightly bound round there, so it stays in this area here. And instead of just being here round the top, this has actually gone round here too, by the looks of it. And it's probably actually got an abscess in there, which is why it's so swollen on the top, sides and at the bottom. Now the danger of leaving these is you can get g i is the infection can spread into the bone soon. And if it does that you're in real trouble. So what you need to have done with this is to have all the puss got out. [James:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, and it needs to be opened up in someway, which sounds a bit drastic but isn't actually that bad. And sometimes as well as going this way we actually need to go in this way too, to actually get it out. If it was simply round the nail we could do it here, but it's not. I mean it actually looks like an abscess in there, so this really needs to be done in the hospital I'm afraid. It's not an enormous [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] thing. [speaker002:] on Sunday it it looked alright, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] there were nothing wrong with it. [speaker001:] They spread very quickly. But they don't spread tha out of this way, but they can spread in this bit quite quickly, cos there's nothing to stop it going around there, at all. [speaker004:] Urgh. [speaker001:] It won't go further back in a hurry, but it it's These are very very nasty. Have you had anything stuck in it, James? You haven't had a splinter? [speaker002:] I don't think he has, [speaker001:] Or anyone knocked or banged it? [James:] football, kicked at it. [speaker001:] S [James:] Footballs. They kicked at it. [speaker001:] Right, this is his right thumb, is he right handed? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Will he have to go on the [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes he will, he'll have to go on the plug yeah he c You're not fit for work for a little while. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now,, what we really need to do is to get the orthopaedic people to have a look at this. In fact they may recommend they have people see him. And if they recommend that, that may mean a little bit of trip, down to either Nottingham or perhaps even Derby, but if we start off at Kings Mill and they'll decide what h The best way of treating this. Okay? [phone dialling] So we'll get them on the ph blower. [talks on telephone] little letter. Now he's otherwise fit and well isn't he? We don't see him very often. [speaker002:] No. He weren't very well yesterday at all, he were in bed all day. [speaker001:] Yeah, where are we now? Twenty fourth is it? Twenty four.... And it's isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is he allergic to anything you know of? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] And he's not on any pills and tablets at the moment, is he? [James:] [cough] [speaker001:] Ooh yes, that's a nice cold isn't it? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [talks on telephone] [speaker001:] A strange bloke. If you find you go and they see you and you get very little joy, can you get back to us? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well he might just have got out of bed, that may not help.... But if you do have problems do get back and mm.... [James:] Is my nail going to my nail going to come off, mum? [speaker001:] Yeah, I'm afraid it may well fall off James, yes. It may well fall off, but if it does fall off and everything gets back to normal it'll grow back again. [James:] I black nail [speaker005:] ... [speaker001:] Now what they'll do is they'll have a look and then decide what to do. There's a there's a chance that they will actually refer you on. Er they may feel this isn't They can sort it out themselves, so we'll see. Depends I If er one of the hand specialists is in they'll probably get you done there and then, if they're quick. [speaker002:] And where do I go then, just Kings Mill casualty [speaker001:] Kings Mill casualty, and the [speaker002:] Where's that? [speaker001:] orthopaedic people will see you there. J Have you been to Kings Mill since they rebuilt it? [speaker002:] No I haven't been since the c they moved the casualty there. [speaker001:] Right you go straight up [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] the drive. [moving sound] And the block is on the right hand side, and you just keep going straight on. Okay, don't turn right, don't turn left, go straight on. And the car parks are to the right and the main entrance is on the left and you just keep going straight on straight on straight on straight on and the bottom left hand corner is casualty. Now you can't actually [LAUGHTER] park by casualty's door, you're going to have to park a little bit before that. But [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] if someone's giving you a lift, what you could do is get them to drive straight down, drop you off, and then they can go and park. Okay. And it's You go straight up and it's in that bottom left hand corner. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay You can't really miss it, it's where all the ambulances are. So you're going to see the orthopaedic people there... care of casualty, B B C one. I mean [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Kings Mill hospital, ho ho ho, little joke. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right now we better start you off how we mean to go on James, with er a sp a special sticker. We don't give you one of those cos they're boring, much more interesting one. Shall we give you a lion for being brave? Would you like a lion for being brave? [James:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Would you like a lion. It says I've been good at the doctor today. We'll start you off with one of these, okay. That can't be a bad start. One lion s One lion sticker, there you go. Okay? And they're going to have a good look and you may need to do all sorts of interesting things, okay. As i said, if you have problems and they don't you don't think they're going to do an awful lot, get back to me cos I I'm sure that's going to need some sort of intervention. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] There's certainly no point in just waving antibiotics at it cos that won't make it better. [speaker002:] So I can take him now then should [speaker001:] Yeah take him straight d [tape change]

[speaker001:] Right, what can I do for you this morning? [speaker002:] Well erm I I'm still [LAUGHTER] I'm still having them panic attacks I've still made a diary of it. [speaker001:] A merry Christmas, aha. Let me have a look. [speaker002:] And er I've I've [speaker001:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] used last one today er Then w where it says M on it means only a mild attack. The [speaker001:] Yo yo [speaker002:] said that, a Mr. Erm [speaker001:] very very few. [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm erm I'm coping alright, Doctor, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] you understand what I mean, I don't just lay in bed I just get [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] on with me work same. I suppose that's a good thing in one way. But [speaker001:] You have about one a every week that One to two weeks aren't you? [speaker002:] Yeah, well as I say, sometimes I go along while in between but I I think it's more or less when when I've been aggravated a bit, you know what I mean? And then the the last few times it's me son's been aggravating me to go into his caravan, you know what I mean? [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] And I don't want to go. I'm not one for holidays, [speaker001:] No, no. [speaker002:] I like being in i it's it's s It's your nature, if if [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] your if your nature's for gadding about, [speaker001:] I think that's [speaker002:] okey-dokey, but if it isn't I mean I like me home. I'm a home bird. [speaker001:] That's right. That's [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] right, I must admit, I'm inclined the same way. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now then [speaker002:] Me h me husband's gone, he he's gone with elde with eldest grandson he has. [speaker001:] Are you happy on your own? [speaker002:] I yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] A a as I say er i it takes a bit of getting used to when you're just making a meal for yourself, you know what I mean you're you're that used to carry 'em about and picking after 'em and [speaker001:] Holiday [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] a holiday at home. [speaker002:] I'm holiday at home, yeah. I've lit this I've got me dog so I'll be alright. She [speaker001:] Now then. [speaker002:] she won't let anybody touch me. [speaker001:] What do you want to do about these? Because [speaker002:] Well well what you s [speaker001:] Do you find they work? [speaker002:] Well do you think they're alright, I mean er [speaker001:] Are they h are they helping you, when you take them? [speaker002:] Well the er they they're helping me, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But they're apt to make me feel a bit I suppose that's what they're for, a bit docile like, you know what I mean? [speaker001:] Yeah, well what we c [speaker002:] But er [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I I you know I cope with them alright, I I I as you can see Doctor how many prescribed. I mean it was October when I come and see you last time. [speaker001:] November actually. [speaker002:] Oh well that's when I had prescription, and er [speaker001:] I think I think we've got er three choices. [speaker002:] As I say er I only take them when I've got to take 'em, you understand what I mean, but I shall sit there and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Something'll just come into me [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] mind, you know what I mean, and I get [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a bit panicky wondering if [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I can think it out. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I know it's daft. Might think about a commercial what's happened years ago. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It just seems as though it flashes in my mind, I don't know it I think I've always had a had a overactive mind, actually, you know I've always worked [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] and [speaker001:] We could put you on something on a regular basis to help to damp them down. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But you weren't very keen on that la [speaker002:] No as as I say Doctor, I don't Same as I was on the valium, you know [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] what I mean, I I I don't know whether that's a throwback Doctor from er being on them, I don't know. I think they call them flash backs don't they or something. [speaker001:] Yes, that's right. [speaker002:] But as I say I cope alright with them and as I say Doctor, I always seem as though I wake up with one, do you [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] understand what I mean, so [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] it must be in my dreams or [speaker001:] Or what we could do, if you say these this dose makes you a bit drowsy, we could give you the same stuff but in a lower dose. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And see if that will help without actually making you [speaker002:] You feel too dopey. [speaker001:] feel flaccid, as you say. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is that okay, shall we try a lower dose? [speaker002:] Yes please. [speaker001:] Now if you find the lower dose isn't working then we can always go back to [speaker002:] Well [speaker001:] this dose. [speaker002:] describe them again Doctor, I I cope with them, I only just take 'em when I've got to do. [speaker001:] What this dose again? [speaker002:] Yes please. [speaker001:] Y you don't want to try the [speaker002:] No I don't want As I say I don't take them for sake I mean as you see how many you prescribed for me, can't you? [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] But er [speaker001:] Well I shall give you thirty. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Er and that'll last you about a year. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And that's fine. And this is really the ideal way to use this drug. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] It's a very good drug when used properly, and that's exactly what you're doing. And [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] And half the time [speaker002:] As I say I don't want anything on a on a regr regular [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] basis Doctor. Not same as the valium was. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Because you get too independent of 'em, you know what [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] I mean? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I'm independent Not independent [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I getting me words up. [speaker001:] Just when you need it. And we only give you thirty anyway. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] As I same I'm I'm You know, to be a bother like, but I thought well I'd be best to come up and see you I could have just have asked for an another prescription. Well no, I think it's sensible [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to see you from time to time [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] just to see how you're getting along. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] And make sure there's no other [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] problems that have [speaker002:] me heart's alright isn't it? I mean you know me heart [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] As far as we know you're blood pressure and things have been fine. [speaker002:] Me me heart's going nine to dozen as me mam'd say, bless her, but er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] You know what I mean. [speaker001:] [cough] That's right. [speaker002:] And I think er I think it's that what worries you sometimes, you know er er If it can stand the pace, but as I say. That that's it. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] All being well, we'll see you [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] next autumn or so, next summer [speaker002:] Yeah, well If if I want you, I [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] know I know where you are, Doctor. [speaker001:] You do you do. [speaker002:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Thank you Doctor. [speaker001:] That's okay, nice to see [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you. [tape change]

[speaker001:] I I'm still having trouble with this leg. It aches and er at nighttime I can't I can't rest with it. [speaker002:] Right. Do you find it's just at night or is it in the day too? [speaker001:] Er w more at night you know. [speaker002:] Right. Does it make you want Is it the sort of ache that makes you want to wriggle it around? [speaker001:] Yeah. I'm kicking it all the while. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] If I lie on settee I've always got this leg hanging, because I [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] can't stand it up. And it's same er when I get in bed, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I always get in bed on me left me right and then I like to turn over to me right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But I found out that me back's been hurting me since I come up before, me back [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] been playing up a bit. So I had to get out of bed and turn over. But I still i can't lie on it, I still have to go back cos of that leg you see? [speaker002:] Okay. Now we tried a bit of W a We actually gave you a worth of something last time, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] did that help? [speaker001:] Mm. Well not really, it [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] er you know. I mean I don't I try to not to take a lot of notice of it you [speaker002:] Good. [speaker001:] know. [speaker002:] Okay, can you just slip your shoe and sock off, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And I can have another look, check your circulation. [speaker001:] I'm always cold. An but me feet are warm now. But I'm always cold. [speaker002:] When did we last check your thyroid? [speaker001:] Er was it was it Ma er [speaker002:] Have we done one this year? I I [speaker001:] I had it I've had it May. I had I had three checks, thyroid [speaker002:] Good. [speaker001:] me er water and er Was it me general? [speaker002:] Yeah. I'll I'll just check that. [speaker001:] Yeah. They all came through right I think. [speaker002:] Oh that's okay then. I mean me hands is ever Yeah. [speaker001:] so cold. [speaker002:] Yeah. That that may be [speaker001:] My hands are stone cold. [speaker002:] That may just be Cos you've got good circulation, in fact, down here. Even if you feel cold, it's not bad, not at all. Okay. Can you wiggle your b ankle backwards and forwards, that's okay. Doe sit ache much now? [speaker001:] No no, not at the moment, no. [speaker002:] No okay. [speaker001:] I think when I'm knocking [speaker002:] And you haven't really got veins? Have varicose veins okay. [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] Okay, and your knee e [speaker001:] Yeah, all me knees ache sometimes. I'm told I'd got arthritis in there, but that's years ago. [speaker002:] Okay. Well I'm sure this er I think it's certainly nothing serious, it [water running] [speaker001:] Oh that's what You see I'm alright, but I thought oh I better come up because I've got to come up [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] next month about that cream that I use. [speaker002:] Yeah. It's called This is called restless leg syndrome. [speaker001:] Oh is it? I was [speaker002:] Yeah. And it's a menace. It [speaker001:] And it [speaker002:] really is a menace. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Because although it's not serious, there really is no brilliant treatment for it. and it comes and goes, [speaker001:] Yeah, well [speaker002:] And and it really does make you want Oh it [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Nasty thing. [speaker001:] But I thought well, While I I'll ma kill two birds with one stone, and I'll er come [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] up and see him. And you told me to come September for about the cream. [speaker002:] That's right yeah. [speaker001:] But I though it's [speaker002:] there. [speaker001:] it's nearly here now isn't it? [speaker002:] That's r [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So I thought if I er But I was beginning to get a bit worried so I thought well I might as well go up because I shall start to worry and things get out of proportion with me you see? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so. Who's the artist, is its are the children? [speaker002:] That's my daughter mainly. Mainly Rebecca [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Not all of the two have been done by [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mostly Rebecca. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] Right now. You're on various bits and bobs, and you're also on the cream. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] If we're going to try anything else for this restless leg, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] it may be worth trying quinine which is widely used for night cramps. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] And sometimes that does help. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] We don't why it works, but it certainly does. And it's worth a go. A [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] trial of quinine and that may well help. [speaker001:] Just a What is it? [speaker002:] Yeah, it's one a night. [speaker001:] One a night. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well I take me Samamigram you know at night. [speaker002:] That's fine, they don't interfere with each other. [speaker001:] Oh, [speaker002:] At all. [speaker001:] want to [speaker002:] No no no no no no no no no. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] As I should do. [] [speaker002:] Now you wouldn't do that but it may that may be worth a go. Okay. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. [speaker002:] Now what about the cream, how are things going on with that, cos you've been [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] on it for a little while now. [speaker001:] er a year. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I's a year since Well I was a lot better since [speaker002:] Yes. Twice a week? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah, no discharge, bleeding, anything like that? [speaker001:] No. Only I came up before you know, when [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] er about with me husband, you know. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] And it was just But I don't er I don't seem as though er it was er sometimes I saw I saw a spot of blood, but it [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] not not like the deep red blood, you know what I mean? [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] And I came er I came up before, can't you remember [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I come up and [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] er er that's the only time. I don't have [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] any bleeding in between [speaker002:] good, [speaker001:] nothing [speaker002:] good, [speaker001:] you know. [speaker002:] god. [speaker001:] But the first time I did use it I thought me inside were on fire. [speaker002:] Oh yes, it often irritates in the same way when you first start to drink spirits you feel [disgusted noise] [speaker001:] Oh dear, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I whatever am I going [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to do and I rung my daughter next morning, [speaker002:] But it goes As you notice [LAUGHTER] it goes off [] [speaker001:] It went and it sent to sooth [speaker002:] That's right. Yeah. [speaker001:] My inside and [speaker002:] It does. [speaker001:] It really soothed it. [speaker002:] Yeah, it makes a big difference, yeah. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah.... Right well I'm glad you're okay on that. Now you've had er a hysterectomy, ooh a long time ago that's right. [speaker001:] Fif fifteen I were fifty one. It's [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] fifteen years, and I had a Promatch [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] repair when I were forty five. And [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'm sixty six, so that's twenty one years and fifteen [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. That's right yeah. [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] B So you can continue on that indefinitely. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So what We'll say trial of quinine, yeah? Give it a go? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] It's not addictive or anything like that is it? [speaker002:] Oh no no no no no. It's not i [speaker001:] Cos I'm frightened of [speaker002:] It's not a sedative or tranquillizer, [speaker001:] No it's just [speaker002:] Quinine. [speaker001:] No well [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] I didn't what did they use to take that for? Malaria, [speaker002:] Malaria. [speaker001:] yeah. [speaker002:] Among other things, [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. Having a s [speaker002:] But not at this dose, this is a low dose. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] A low dose of quinine. But it's worth a go. [speaker001:] I mean once I know what a thing is [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that's half my battle. Because I I stop [speaker002:] Good, yeah. [speaker001:] worrying. [speaker002:] Restless legs it's called. [speaker001:] Ooh. [speaker002:] Restless legs, and it sums it up, because [LAUGHTER] they do get restless []. It's got a posh name, I can't remember what it's called now, but it has got a posh name too. [speaker001:] I know they all have but I mean I'd rather have the ordinary names and then [speaker002:] Yeah. Well so would I cos I remember them I can't [speaker001:] And then I know [speaker002:] I can't remember the posh names usually. [speaker001:] The same with flowers and all them plants and that. I'd much rather have a plain name I know what they're talking about then. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And because I'm not very. [speaker002:] Yeah, we're plain folk aren't we? [speaker001:] Yeah. I'm not very high up on [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] all these posh words. [speaker002:] No. So one a night. Won't interfere with anything else, and if that's helping, so much the better. [speaker001:] Oh can I have some cream please? I'm all but out of it. [speaker002:] Ooh squeeze that in at the bottom there. [speaker001:] Yeah, can you manage? [speaker002:] Yeah. It's right teeny.... Okay use twice a week. i haven't put that on, because I haven't got room. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah, well I know I know what to do with that. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. [speaker002:] we'll give that a go. [speaker001:] Yes, okay. [speaker002:] And then we'll see how things go. [speaker001:] Yeah okay then [speaker002:] Okay. [tape change]

[speaker001:] Now what shall I do with you this morning? [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] She had her blood test a few weeks ago. [speaker001:] Ooh that's right yes, cos we got We Trosser wasn't working and we're going to do some Terbinefeine and provided the blood tests were okay. I remember. make sure we're all behaving ourselves and there's no evidence of anaemia, infection, vitamin deficiency, inflammation, anything else. And you've got perfect liver function tests which is what we thought you'd have all So the thing to do is to now get you on Terbinefeine Yeah? [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker001:] For your grotty nails. Now you're f fourteen give or take a week or two aren't you? [speaker003:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So what we need to do is to check the dose. [bangs table in time with words]... Two one six.... This is getting to be quite widely used nowadays, especially from the skin specialists,. and we're getting er more Now then we need to work out what the dose is. that's the wrong one. [thinking noise] that's the cream, don't want to look at that. One a day for two to six weeks in the feet, two to four weeks in the body. Three months in fungal nail infe Now which bit is it I can't It's the nails isn't it? [speaker003:] It's nails. [Elizabeth:] Mm. [speaker001:] Nails, So six weeks to three months in fungal nail infections. So probably the sensible thing to do is to give you six weeks worth er one a day,si twenty eight,y g give you eight weeks worth and then see how you are at the end of two months continuous treatment. Okay. See what happens. Now one of the problems of course is nails grow very slowly, and you can't clear the nail [LAUGHTER] until the nail [] has actually grown out fully. Ah so we will see See at the end of three months treatment they'll s They won't look enormously different. But then they should carry on getting better on their own. [speaker003:] Ooh good. [speaker001:] So if I give you fifty six and then we'll see. Now obviously if you get problems on them, tummy ache, headaches, muscle aching, rashes, anything odd, let us know straight away cos this still a relatively new drug and we've got to report all problems on relatively new drugs. Relatively new drugs are st are are new as far as that were concern for up to three years, which is a real menace. We send yellow cards on all sorts of Ter-bin-a-fiene It's on a day, I'll give you fifty six. So we'll se how you are. If it looks like there's been very little response then we'll probably keep you going for yet another month after that. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er provided everything's okay. But we don't need to do any blood tests if you're fine, you'll be delighted to hear, having checked in the first place. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Any questions? [Elizabeth:] No. [speaker001:] No? Okay. you're not on any pills and tablets are you? Good. [speaker003:] Well she's supposed to take Melkrom but she doesn't take them. [speaker001:] Taking? [speaker003:] Melkrom. She has this allergy to cow's milk and what have you. She's supposed to take that when she's [speaker001:] Ooh, what's Melkrom [speaker003:] Capsules that she had for years. [Elizabeth:] Mm. [speaker003:] But she doesn't take them any But [speaker001:] It's probably an o One of these old fashioned trade names. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker001:] So let's have a look. [speaker003:] She's supposed to take them half an hour before she has any to eat. [speaker001:] Oh there's a lot of funny trade names that Oh it's here, no Yes it is Melkrom two oh eight. Let's have a look what Melkrom really is. [cough] What by mouth? Ooh. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] For the last ten years you shouldn't have been taking it. [] [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No, it's Serumchromoglycate with it What it What's it Now we know We know all about that cos we a lot of it in aspirin and problems with noses and things like that, but er I wasn't aware that it was actually used by mouth for this. Well, yeah. But if you're not taking it and you're okay you probably don't need it. But I'd say I mean if you are taking it it won't interfere with it. That's the important [speaker003:] That's alright yeah. [speaker001:] thing. [LAUGHTER] Oh well I've learned something there. [speaker003:] Er you were going to make some enquiries about erm Oh er T B er B C G. [speaker001:] Yes I have spoken to Mrs who is the er er the woman involved and what she has said is this, the We can't directly we can't directly get hold of it, they won't send it out into the community. But if we [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] if I if I let her know who're the people I who are the people involved who had it. And what school they are at, they will do everything to everything required through the school health service. The lot. [speaker003:] Well that's fine for Elizabeth but Catherine's sort of half left school, if she hasn't she's waiting for her G C S Es and she's not sure whether she's got to go back or what she's doing. [speaker001:] Ah. Right, well in that case I'll get that to Mrs then in that on on her. [speaker003:] Well I can let you know more at the end of week actually, what she's doing, [speaker001:] Okay well that'd that'll be better. [speaker003:] I mean cos we moved [speaker001:] That'll be better [speaker003:] half way through do we haven't got a clue what the poor girl's doing at the moment. [speaker001:] Oh right, so let me know at the end of the week. So it's Elizabeth and Cath Is Catherine with a K or a C [speaker003:] C [speaker001:] Catherine with a K. [speaker003:] They're both at All Saints at present but whether she goes back or not is [speaker001:] All Saints in Catholic, yeah. All Saints R C comprehensive. I keep hearing good reports about that. [speaker003:] It's a very good school. [speaker001:] school [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er so if you let me know about Catherine. Er now unfortunately I'm away next week, so if if the message doesn't get to me before I've gone, it'll be the week after that I then get back to Mrs. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] In fact it's going to be done through a school anyway, it's not [LAUGHTER] desperately relevant [] [speaker003:] No cos it wer No it's just the fact she wants to go to a veterinary nurse you see, I wanted t them Don't want her be in contact with too many animals in case they have s don't wanna get. [speaker001:] Wel, yes I mean T B in animals is actually very very rare, cos of course all the cow the cows are tested anyway. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] And the cow testing programme in I think is still very very thorough. Er human testing and immunizations is still going gone in this are and I hope it won't ever stop. They've got no intention of stopping it at [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] the health authority. And I sit on the immunization su subcommittee anyway, so they better not dare. They won't they won't dare. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] But I'll I'll make enquiries, and if it looks like she has gone out I will have to get in and we I'm sure we can twist an arm. I'm in the right place to twist an arm. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's the important thing. But we can certainly get er you done Elizabeth at School. But if you get back to me about Catherine and we'll sort things out. [speaker003:] Yes okay, we'll [speaker001:] Is that okay? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] And I will put B C G. And that'll remind me. [speaker003:] slip through the net so far but they've got to be done. [speaker001:] Yes, you'll get done, don't worry. You'll [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] get done. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] No escape. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Right thanks very much. [speaker001:] Okay. [tape change]

[speaker001:] What can I do for you this morning? [speaker002:] Well I'm still getting myself in a tangle, like I was when I came. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] But I didn't take those tablets, I tried not to do. [speaker001:] That's the low dose Dizapac [speaker002:] Yeah, whatever it is. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And also I keep getting a pain in my arm just here, it's a [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] bit of a [speaker001:] Right in there. [speaker002:] As if If I press it, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and if I put any weight on it. [speaker001:] Aha. Any idea what's brought that on? [speaker002:] I don't really know, I've had it for about three week. I keep trying one of those lamps. [speaker001:] Yeah. Okay, let's have a closer look at that arm. [speaker002:] But it's er It's noting You know I can move it alright, there's [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] no problem [beeping] want to go. [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker002:] Are you jogging? [speaker001:] No no. Just normal summer ware. [speaker002:] I'd thought you'd been getting exercise in. [speaker001:] No no no no no no no, no just casual ware this summer. It's too hot otherwise. It's hot enough as it is in this place. I've got three internal walls and the wall's about eighteen inches thick with a double glazed window. I mean there's You know what [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What's it like up the fore arm? Is that er [speaker002:] I it's alright, but it seems if I if I press in there [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] somewhere. [speaker001:] Okay. you okay in this area here? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] No problems there? [speaker002:] Nothing at all. [speaker001:] Nothing on the [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] backside of the elbow. You're okay there. Now let me just Is that okay? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Okay, just pull your hand in towards your face a bit. Okay, you haven't ruptured the tendon. Is that tender? [speaker002:] Not really no. [speaker001:] In there. Under there? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] So it is Really is on and off cos there's nothing much there now, is there? [speaker002:] No, no. [speaker001:] It's funny that isn't it? [speaker002:] I don't know It's [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] comes on and it [speaker001:] Push out for me, push that. [speaker002:] To you? [speaker001:] Yeah. Well that's okay when you do that? Nothing [speaker002:] Hmm, feel a little bit, nothing at the back. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It seems if it's [speaker001:] okay. Just hold my hand and turn as if you were turning a door handle. Okay. And the other way. Does that hurt there? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Er... not sure what's causing that [speaker002:] But i mean it's [speaker001:] Well yes I mean it's it's it's more likely to have been a muscle than anything else, with pain that comes and goes. Certainly won't be a bone that's causing it. But what's irritated the muscle in the first place is Your guess is as good as mine, cos it all works perfectly. Now. [speaker002:] Is it stress related? [speaker001:] Well can make anything worse and will often make a lot of things carry on longer than they otherwise would normally. I don't think stress would cause this sort of pain but it'll certainly make it feel worse, there's no doubt about that.... [speaker002:] what I'm think if I do get [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a little bit up tight, it [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] seems as if that. [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh it'll make it worse. [speaker002:] So I don't know but er [speaker001:] Mm. How are you managing er things when you get up tight? [speaker002:] Well I'm doing things, you know I'm not... [speaker001:] Yeah. So you're keeping yourself occupied? [speaker002:] avoiding th I've never had I mean me I'm [speaker001:] But if you I mean if you do get very anxious what do you do? [speaker002:] I just carry on. [speaker001:] You just carry on. And it wears off? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Well that's probably a good a way of managing it as anything really. [speaker002:] I mean I'm not the sort of person who can sit down and watch telly all day, you know [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I didn't think so. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] Er and you haven't been taking any of those Diazepam at all? [speaker002:] I didn't take them because [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] I I know [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] I tried to I probably made myself a bit of a nuisance when I came in last time but, [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] as I told you before I'd been like it before and it [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it's er [speaker001:] The advantage of those Diazepam is, they're there if you need them. You've still got them there if you need them. Er it's a very low dose, if you just take them every now and again you'll have no problems with them at all. And if you do feel things are overwhelming you then they may just help to bring you down again. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And that's what they're there for. Sometimes, just knowing you've got something else you can turn to is all you need cos you don't need [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to take to anything, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you just know they're there. [speaker002:] I mean i it's it's it's funny thing this i It's a thing what seems to creep up on you isn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. It's very common. [speaker002:] I I really know I mean it it's not that I'm I'm no where near like I was before, I know because I was You know reservoir treatment before, but er [speaker001:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] Doc er Dr, Colin, he [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] would call men a silly bugger he did. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I know him, I know him well, yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well he would say that yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] He's alright though, I mean [speaker001:] Oh yes, yes he was a [speaker002:] Not meant offensive or anything like that. [speaker001:] Yeah, he were a great bloke. Yeah. not taking Diazepam. Well I th I sus I suspect you will ma co continue to manage yourself. And I think for you that may be the best way of doing things. [speaker002:] Mm. And I've got [break in recording] This one [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Ta. [speaker001:] But this pain, I'm not sure what that is, I mean your arm seems to be in perfect working order, so [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] keep an open mind on that. It'll probably go now I've had a look at it. Like it does. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] This' ll squeeze your arm a bit, okay? [pumping up blood pressure armband] Still smoking? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Drinking? [speaker002:] No.... [speaker001:] Smoking's bad for you of course but I mean [speaker002:] You r you really think I ought to stop? Be honest, give me a real [speaker001:] Well, [speaker002:] professional. [speaker001:] smoking will help stress... but smoking is much more likely to cause serious physical problems, than stress is. That's the catch. Er And it it's reckoned a hundred and sixty thousand people die a year, of smoking related diseases. Er I don't know how many people die of stress related diseases but it's probably under a hundredth. Er And I think that puts it into context. Overall your health would be a lot better off your cigarette. And if you find then things like stress and anxiety come through, there are other ways of treating that and sorting that out. I can't think of any case where people are better off smoking than none smoking, [speaker003:] really [speaker002:] what about a pipe? [speaker001:] Well pipes are better than cigarettes because you don't inhale so much. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] fact if you don't inhale at all you're doing yourself a big favour, but you nearly always get some down ion to the system and really the o the only thing I could ethically recommend as a doctor, is stopping. Difficult to be ethically safe, this is safer than that, you know. I mean the decision is yours and you may find You may wish to sort of take take things very slowly and very gradually.... [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I'm not going to tell you to do anything, that's not what I'm here for, but er [speaker002:] Well I mean er we have to take notice of you don't we? [speaker001:] Yeah. Well no you don't actually, I mean y you are free to [LAUGHTER] ignore our advice and [] Yeah I I know that, [speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean [speaker001:] but I mean that would be my advice as a doctor, to stop smoking, in the long term. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Certainly. Your blood pressure's absolutely fine. Impressive, it's better than mine. [speaker002:] Bet you tell everybody. [speaker001:] No it's true. It's true. Mine is er It's not high but it's higher than I would like but er [speaker002:] So what am I going to do? Just carry on? [speaker001:] Yes I think so. [speaker002:] Do you think I ought to take anything or? [speaker001:] No I don't think you need to take anything at all. You've got the Diazepam if you need them [speaker002:] No, I haven't got it. [speaker001:] Oh you haven't Oh Oh Oh you never got it. Oh, well the p Oh yes well it's now seven months old that prescription so that that'll now be invalid so ache in left arm [speaker002:] I don't know what this is, whether it's something with work or [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Comes and goes,y y y and sometimes [speaker001:] wait and see would be the right approach for that. Cos it certainly isn't anything obviously serious, so I think we'll just see how things go, [speaker002:] Yeah, prescription? [speaker001:] No, not unless you want one. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I think that's the answer to that one isn't it? You don't really want I'm certainly not going to give you something you don't want, so [speaker002:] Well let me put it to you like this, I feel sometimes that I need something, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] ... to settle me down. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er but sometimes I'm alright. [speaker001:] Right, well what I could do is I could give you another prescription now, that you can go and get if you feel you are going to need something. [speaker002:] L let me let me do that. [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Let me let me do that [speaker001:] And if it expires [speaker002:] that's alright. [speaker001:] Yeah, if it expires like the last one, that's okay, just chuck it on the fire. [speaker002:] I think what I'll do I'll er I'll get the prescription. [speaker001:] Okay.... You can have one up to three times a day, er you're never going to take that I'm sure. As required. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] okay? And I think what you'll find is you just need one you know, perhaps even one every three or four months, that's okay. It's just there to take the edge off things when it's not settling on it's own. And that is entirely the appropriate way to use these and they really can make a huge difference like that. [speaker002:] Okay, thank you for your time. [speaker001:] There you go. That's okay. Nice to see you again. [speaker002:] Well it's nice to see you but I hate It's not personal but I [speaker001:] I know I know I know. [speaker002:] I really do it [speaker001:] You don't like coming to doctors. [tape change]

[speaker001:] What can I do for you this morning? [speaker002:] Ah it's the acne it's I ran out two weeks ago, so we've been on holiday I had to get those prescription. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] I made an appointment to se you sort of this week but that's [speaker001:] Now it was working well. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is it still working well? [speaker002:] Yeah, it's about the same really. [speaker001:] Right okay. But you had a bit of flare up A You flared up in last time you had came off it, didn't you? Temporarily. [speaker002:] That's right, yeah, so I thought I'd best get it [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] rather than run out [speaker001:] Yes, no you don't want to er flare up, right, so [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Are you growing? [speaker002:] No, I've stopped growing now [speaker001:] You've stopped growing. Y [speaker002:] I've had this all week. [speaker001:] Oh I [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It's alright. Do you play basketball? [speaker001:] Is there a family history of being very tall? [speaker002:] No not really my dads about six foot three [speaker001:] That's quite tall, yes. [speaker002:] Well he's six foot, six foot one or six foot t [speaker001:] Well you're you're tal taller than him, I should think, aren't you? Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Are you well in yourself? [speaker002:] Yeah, fine yeah. [speaker001:] But there's no there's no family history of other medical problems at all? [speaker002:] No not really [speaker001:] Just there are one or two I mean when we see tall, thin, young people we think of all sorts of interesting medical things, but most of them are completely at all, you see so [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We always ask. [speaker002:] No, fine. [speaker001:] Right, okay. [speaker002:] I've had a bit of problem with me knee left knee [speaker001:] Have you? [speaker002:] Don't know if it's cartilage or not? I just play football on Sundays and I fence as well, Thursday night. [speaker001:] Fence? Yes I good fencer, long [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] reach. [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] Football, er I thought you might be big for football. Basketball definitely. [speaker002:] It's there [speaker001:] Let's have a [speaker002:] It's just there it after like when I'm resting it aches [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a bit. [speaker001:] Right. What about stairs and steps, when you go up and down stairs and [speaker002:] I noticed a bit more lately, yeah [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but not so much [speaker001:] Twisting? If you've got a [speaker002:] No not really [speaker001:] No you're okay, twisting, okay just t just turn [speaker002:] It's just sort of there. [speaker001:] slightly. Er No no no no your whole body [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] get y get your knee in, okay. Now I'll just wobble it backward and let it go.... There's full range of movement. And a stable joint.... It doesn't particularly wobble around, does it? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] It's just that it's aching, I was wondering if the [speaker001:] Just er Lift up, let it go completely l loose and limp, that's fine. If I move the kneecap around it from side to side. [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] If I push the kneecap up? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Okay. Down. [speaker002:] No that's alright. [speaker001:] You're okay there? Okay. Just let it flop again. Does it er hurt under there? [speaker002:] No, not really, no. [speaker001:] And at the sides of the joint there? [speaker002:] No. It was just the front moving that was [speaker001:] Okay. I think if you have mainly pain in there it's much more likely to be a little bit of inflammation under the this tendon which goes from the muscle here over the top of the kneecap and attaches in there. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] And it's this muscle that makes the whole leg go [vocalized whipping sound] like that. And it's a huge great big muscle but it can get a little bit er inflamed, as it passes over the front edge of the kneecap there. And that's what gives you the pain right at the front. It's not [speaker002:] Ah [speaker001:] rela It's not actually the knee joint itself, it's got nothing to do with the cartilages and it's particularly common in people who are growing. [speaker002:] Or tall. [speaker001:] Or Or have grown. Well no, not particularly tall but certainly growing and it's probably been It's probably just er related to that. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] And you don't need to do anything. Keep yourself generally fit,. So we'd better make a note of that. Ache left knee, perhaps nothing to see. Ah and then... and you're not getting any side effects from Erithramita [speaker002:] No. No side effects, fine as far as I can tell. [speaker001:] Okay. Now you're now er nineteen aren't you? [speaker002:] I'm going to a university [speaker001:] I was going to ask what you're doing. [speaker002:] in September. Erm [speaker001:] what three times a day aren't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It's Dundee and they've asked me to transfer my medical records up to the local G P up there. [speaker001:] Actually what we'll do is we'll give you Er you're probably a bit bigger than you were when we were giving you three er on three times a day. We'll give you twice a day but a slightly bigger dose so that's actually five hundred milligrammes twice a day. Give you a hundred and eighty which is three months worth of those. Yes when you go up there you'll have to register but if you I mean I presume the university term's what ten weeks? [speaker002:] Yes, ten or twelve weeks cos I starting [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] in It starts September the twentieth [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] so it is a bit earlier. But [speaker001:] So you're going to be there more than you're going to be here, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and er you obviously will need to register there. Now there's two important things, first thing is your notes will take a long time to get up there maybe up to three months. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I think some one has to walk from Nottingham to Dundee. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No it's just that they take ages and ages and ages cos Dundee will ask Nottingham, Nottingham will ask us to bring the notes back, then we'll send them to Nottingham, Nottingham will send them to Dundee, Dundee will send them to your G P. [speaker002:] Right, okay. [speaker001:] Convoluted isn't it? Convoluted, but that's the way it goes and we can't actually release the notes to anyone but the local people in Nottingham. So we can't send them up to your doctor. There's absolutely nothing to tell your doctor fortunately, so we don't have to do a summary for you or anything like that. But [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] the important is that he knows what you're on and why you're on it, and you can tell him that. [speaker002:] But I've got enough You'll write Will [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] you write a prescription [speaker001:] one twice a day I I I would keep going with three month prescriptions anyway, so that'll keep you going till the end of November No not quite the end of November, but you can then see him and say look, I've got this this is why I'm on these for. [speaker002:] Yeah, right. [speaker001:] And er he can introduce that. You'll probably find when you register you're invited to go along for a new patient medical anyway, and all sorts of things like that. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] All fun and game Just one twice a day. Best taken on an empty stomach so half an hour before food. Don't interfere with paracetamol, they don't interfere with aspirin, they don't interfere with alcohol. [speaker002:] That's alright then. [speaker001:] Okay. Just to exaggerate those three points, I know, I can remember being a student myself. Er the other thing of course, when you're down here we can carry on treating you with what's called a temporary resident. [speaker002:] Yes it's like the holidays, vacation [speaker001:] Yeah no problems seeing you while you're down here as a temporary resident, delighted to do so. Okay? [speaker002:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Very good, what are you doing up there? [speaker002:] It's retail and distribution management. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] a degree so, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] but it's a year out as well. So it's four years. [speaker001:] Four years, Okay. [speaker002:] Have a nice holiday. [speaker001:] See you bye now. [speaker002:] Bye. [tape change]

[speaker001:] I had laryngitis last week, and I'm just clearing and coughing out. That's all we're doing, nothing drastic. Now then. [Meryl:] That that It's his little treat. That that's for you and [speaker001:] [shouting] Ooh. [] [Meryl:] your wife. [speaker001:] [shouting] Oh. [] [LAUGHTER] Oh, you shouldn't do this all the time. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I I'll tell you I will be I will be popular daddy when I get home. [Meryl:] There you are you see. [speaker004:] You can't beat that. [Meryl:] That will that'll be nice [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Meryl:] won't it? [speaker004:] They will enjoy that. [speaker001:] Yeah I Actually I'd better put these in the draw cos if I don't I can see someone else helping themselves. [speaker004:] Aye, you never know. [speaker001:] And I probably put Oh look at this, oh that well. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh well, that's nice cos my wife will like this cos it's it's not er [Meryl:] It's very [speaker001:] It's not er it's a sort of medium strength rather than [Meryl:] It's like [speaker004:] Yeah. [Meryl:] er Asti [speaker001:] Yeah, ooh I like Asti. [Meryl:] Well er i you w it's ju It's just [speaker004:] Very refreshing. [Meryl:] the same as Asti. [speaker001:] I like Asti, this is a this is a real something to have with a pudding. A real light pudding [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] summer wine, ooh yes. summer pudding [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and this. I better put this in the draw as well, otherwise otherwise my antenatal, antenatal clinic later, dad's [speaker004:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] er what's he up to? [Meryl:] That's right. [speaker001:] Anyway. Now then. Nice to see you again. [speaker004:] er [speaker001:] Twenty fourth. [speaker004:] I'm getting a little bit disturbed. Now la last There's two people down here last week, they said they could hear me breathing [speaker003:] [sneeze] [speaker004:] They tell me they told but I don't feel any effects from it at all. [speaker001:] Now what have they have they said they can hear you breathing more quickly or more deeply or rattly or [speaker004:] But didn't say that. They said they could just hear me didn't they Meryl? [Meryl:] very quick and loud. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] But er Yet I don't think er Don't seem to be I don't feel any [speaker001:] Deep breaths or shallow breaths? [Meryl:] Very small. he does about three now to me one. [speaker001:] Okay. What are you like at night? Actually perhaps I should ask your wife. [Meryl:] Oh well, now I don't ask him at night because Is that i is we hardly have any sleep. [speaker001:] Oh. [Meryl:] Because [speaker004:] With bloody arm business. [Meryl:] with this a arm. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker004:] This is up This is upsetting me more than the breathing job really. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Meryl:] We we had one hour the other night. [speaker001:] Oh dear, [speaker004:] Now then. [speaker001:] we'll come back to that. [Meryl:] Mm. Now his breathing [speaker004:] Yes yes. N now you know when I went to see Dr he said I'd got this enlarged heart? [speaker001:] That's right, yeah. [speaker004:] Well what er What's what detrimental is that to me anyway? What's what's the effects on meself? On me er What causes it anyway? [speaker001:] How do How How do you put this into ho When you get when you get heart strain it's a bit like a pair of undies, okay? Who Which i which are having to cope with a bigger and bigger body. And the elastic gets stretched and stretched and stretched. And instead of being a snug fitting pair of undies they become a big baggy pair of undies that are really neither use nor ornament. And that's what the heart is like in heart failure. It gets more and more ballooned out and it just ca It gets less and less and less good as a pump. And eventually it's a bit flabby useless bag of muscle that really doesn't do anything. And that's right at the end, and that's why people die of heart failure. now you're not that bad. But there is some strain on the heart and it is rather large and it isn't working so well. [speaker004:] What's what what's caused this? [speaker001:] What causes it? Well it's usually because the heart itself is getting either old or tired or it's damaged in one way. And it just doesn't work as well. And then what y When it doesn't work so well you get a bit of a backlog of fluid. And you get the bit You get backlog of fluid both at the extremities, you get swollen ankles. But very commonly you get a backlog of fluid on the lungs. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And so your lungs get a bit of fluid on the lungs, you get a bit breathless with it, and that's often the first sign. Now you have had a few crackles but they've been fairly easily sorted out. And you're actually not on anything at the moment are you? [speaker004:] Just water tablets. [speaker001:] Yeah, just a low dose [speaker004:] Get rid os the fluid. [speaker001:] That's just one So you're not on much at all. [speaker004:] But I don't er How can I put it? I mean yesterday i cut the lawn. No no after effects. No ill effects. [Meryl:] But you home and you was on with this breathing job. [speaker004:] That now I were j i were just er [Meryl:] You don't know that it's there but I do. [speaker004:] I see what you mean, yeah yeah. [speaker001:] Well let's have a look to see what we've got. Anyhow that's what happens in heart failure. And er if you can clearly identify that in folk, it's worth treating very vigorously cos it can make a huge difference. One of the problems in your case is, we've never really been able to Cos i i When we when we've examined you from time to time, things come and gone. So erm [speaker004:] I that er [speaker001:] And I think what we ought to do is have another look at you now. [speaker004:] Dr Dr when I [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker004:] He said he said I'd got legionnaires disease didn't he? Or did he think Or did he think it was pneumonia? [Meryl:] Well he said legionnaires disease, [speaker004:] Well I thought it was pneumonia. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well legionnaires [speaker004:] Anyway [speaker001:] disease is a pneumonia so [speaker004:] And er I went for an X-ray and they said I'd got two two scars or [Meryl:] But you know when you went to see Dr you went to the park, didn't they? [speaker004:] That's right. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Meryl:] Did they X-ray your heart then? [speaker004:] Ooh aye yes, yes. I had a proper job there. [speaker001:] Well you've had an E C G and we've done chest X-rays and erm the E the electrical tracing of your heart didn't really show an awful lot but So er Anyway let's see what we've got today. Okay? Do you want to juts pop on the couch for me? I think [Meryl:] Has your builder started yet? [speaker001:] The builder started a week last Monday. [Meryl:] Did he? [speaker001:] Yeah. and they've done ever so well cos they did all Cos of course we had fine whether last week, they got everything done, and then it poured at the weekend but they weren't there, and now they're back on site the weather's cheered up again. So it's great, perfect timing, so they're really getting going. [Meryl:] We had a chap who'd come from Ravenshead to do o to do ours, [speaker001:] Oh o our builders are actually from Mansfield Woodhouse. [Meryl:] Oh. We had a Scots fencer. [speaker001:] Oh yes yes. I know them yes. [speaker004:] Very good, nice chap, [Meryl:] Ah that's erm [speaker004:] fellows. [speaker001:] They were very nice, yeah they came round to give us a quote and my wife actually knows one of their wives very very well and er but the produced an exorbitant quote. [speaker004:] Really? [speaker001:] Oh yeah, it was you know a order of magnitude greater so [speaker004:] Oh dear. [Meryl:] we had a [speaker001:] But when we tol When we told us they said Oh they'd have come down to match the nearest competitor, and we thought oh why did he quote up there in the first place then. [speaker004:] Mm. [Meryl:] Oh had [speaker001:] The are very variable they obviously thought we could afford a [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] higher a higher price. [Meryl:] It's not it's not [speaker001:] Screen the outside world out [Meryl:] fair is it? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well I thought so but we've got a We think the builders we've got are excellent. [Meryl:] Good. [speaker001:] Er they're competitive quote and they'll do the kitchen and unlike some you know, where they get subcontractors in for the joinery, the electrics [Meryl:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] It's their firm. [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And so [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] we know where we are all the time, which I think is one of the huge advantages, [Meryl:] It does I'm pleased they're getting on with it for you. [speaker001:] They are, I mean there's only usually two or three there at a time, but you see it's all bricking at the present [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I mean [speaker004:] Aye, yeah. [speaker001:] we can't do anything else yet. [speaker004:] Not really. [speaker001:] When we're away though next week, I think they'll do quite a lot of stuff inside and But they're doing some for The same team are doing some friends of ours on Main Road and of course most of the people are down there. And we'd [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] rather they'd finished them off anyway, [LAUGHTER] before they came to us. [speaker004:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] Cos they're now a a week overdue already. This' ll squeeze a little bit.... Your blood pressures fine, okay? It's a bit higher than it was last time but it's still well within the normal range, now just... How far can you walk before you get short of breath, would you say? [speaker004:] Well the walking's no problem, it's when I start to run that's when I get [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Meryl:] Now y you don't run. [speaker004:] No but I'm pretty good walking a lo a hell of a way. [Meryl:] But he's puffing and panting all the time.... [speaker001:] Okay just sit forward for me. Ta. [cough]... Really deep breaths now. Okay.... Good, okay. And once more. Yeah, that's fine. Right, okay, that's all done. Now all your vital signs are absolutely normal. Your heart sounds fine but there is evidence that there is a little bit of fluid in your on your lungs. That in itself doesn't matter cos you're coping, but I suspect what happens is every now and again you get a little blip and your your breathing starts to alter and you get a little breathless, [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] and then most of the rest of the time you're fine. But that's suggestive enough I think to s That's probably what's causing your breathless even if you don't notice it and you're compensating. It may have become so normal that you don't but I think [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] we could actually make you a bit bit A lot better than this, and I think the time has come to adjust how we're treating you a little bit. Now... what we need to do is to change your water tablets and to change your er medication a little bit. [cough] And what we're going to do is to say You had your water tablet this morning haven't you? [speaker004:] I haven't had one yet, no I [speaker001:] Oh good. [speaker004:] Well I don't, not yet. [speaker001:] Brilliant. Brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant [speaker004:] Coming out you see. [speaker001:] brilliant brilliant. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Meryl:] [LAUGHTER] He daren't with coming out. [] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] It's coming out you s [] You get out [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] want to go and can't. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah I know. They do acta rather promptly don't they?... Er let me see, what day is it now, Tuesday, so Wednesday. So your going to start those on Thursday.... Now what we're going to do is change your water tablets. Don't take a water tablet today. [speaker004:] Don't take one, no. [speaker001:] Don't take a water tablet tomorrow. And you can start on the new water tablets which are called Frusamide on Thursday. Now Frusamide is actually the stuff in Laciride that makes you wee. So we're not actually changing your water tablets as such, we're just knocking a little bit off and leaving you just on the Frusamide bit of your water tablet, okay? So you'll still [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] be in the same way. What we need to do is to add a drug called Anapril Which is otherwise known as Inavase and somewhere, but somewhere we have a Brilliant, it's gone again. This thing keeps moving around, it's not here. Right. We're going to put you on what's called a starter pack, now... start this tomorrow night, okay? Start on Wednesday evening.... So you don't take a water tablet today, you don't take anything tonight. You don't take a water tablet tomorrow and then you start this Inavase stuff and the first dose should be taken at night because the main potential side effect with the very first tablet, and it's the first tablet only, is your blood pressure can go Oh down a bit. So the best thing to do is to have it last thing at night as you plonk your head on the pillow. And then if your blood pressure does go down a bit it doesn't matter cos you're lying down. The important thing is that if you get up at night to have a wee, you beware that you may feel a little bit lightheaded, so you get up slowly, sit on the edge of the bed, you stand up slowly, and when you're happy you're off, off you go. Okay? Now if you don't get any problems with the first dose, then you're fine and then you can carry on. And it's one in the morning, okay? And you'll find for half the pack it's one a day and then for the second half of the pack it's two a day. And what I would quite like to do is to see you as you come to the end of the starter pack and I think the starter pack is Oh I can't remember how many days treatment is in it. I can't remember if it's two weeks or four weeks, let me just check. Cos it's important when we've got you that we we have a look at you, we listen to your chest, we check your blood pressure and we make sure there's no side effect. But this drug works in a very different way and it actually helps to take the strain off your heart er and it actually makes a huge difference. One eleven. [thinking noise] We maybe actually go on like three weeks. But if i see you at towards the end of the And the packs are all labelled, it's very [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Ah so you start off start on Wednesday evening and then it's usually a daily dose and Thursday you can restart your water tablets, once again one in the morning, okay. Does that make sense? [Meryl:] So if that [speaker004:] Wednesday night I take the tablets. [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Wednesday night you start the starter pack. [speaker004:] Yeah, [Meryl:] And he's got some different water tablets. yes. [speaker001:] Different water tablets yeah. And if you're okay overnight then you can carry on with the pack as directed on Thursday morning [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and you start your water tablets at the same time. [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Okay? [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now you may find you actually get a slightly more out of breath over the next thirty six hours, cos you haven't taken your water tablets. Er I'm afraid we can't do anything about that. If you're going to start this stuff you really need to ha The people off the water tablets before you start. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Er otherwise people's blood pressure does go vroom into their boots. [LAUGHTER] [Meryl:] Mm. [speaker001:] And you have trouble, so we can't do that. Er we'll play it safe. [speaker004:] I can take I can take it easy [Meryl:] Well he easy [speaker001:] He won't he you you won't come to any harm stopping the water tablets for forty eight hours. And then hopefully you'll actually get a lot better. S you'll find there's a lot less strain on the heart, you may find you can do more without getting short of breath. [whispering] And even your wife should be happier. [] [speaker004:] I know that she's worried, that's the trouble. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Meryl:] I am and [speaker001:] is there is some fluid on your lungs. [speaker004:] She does she does worry about it [speaker001:] And I and I think it's quite right to have you back and alter your treatment at this stage so, [speaker004:] Mm mm. [speaker001:] er [Meryl:] And we'll sleep with this arm as well will we. [speaker001:] That's right as far as the arm is concerned we've got to be cautious, there. If we start waving a lot of anti [Meryl:] Mm. [speaker001:] inflammatory pain killers we can actually give you We can actually make the fluid on the lungs worse. And I would recommend we just stick with something very basic to start off with like paracetamol, two four times a day Something so very very simple like that. [speaker004:] Well actually what I've been I've been taking two before I go to bed at night. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's fine. paracetamol doesn't interfere with any of these, [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] and it won't make any difference to your chest either. So I would actually do that, but if you're having pain in the day I would treat that as well. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And you may find treating the pain in the day means it's not so bad at night so you actually get more sleep anyway. [speaker004:] It's not often it comes on during the day, but now and again [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] it does. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I it does and I've told you Now yesterday was [speaker001:] Yeah, I mean we've looked [speaker004:] was [speaker001:] at your arm and there's nothing [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yes, yeah. We'll see. So that's that. And [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it makes it important I see you before you run out of these [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] tablets. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] Okay, which I think is [speaker004:] okay. [speaker001:] going to be round about three weeks time. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You'll have to count up. I can't it doesn't actually tell me how many days it is. [Meryl:] Yeah well we'll make the appointment when we've got the tablets and sorted it out. [speaker001:] Yeah, the chemist may not have those in stock but they'll be able to get you for them within twenty four hours, you're [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] not starting them until tomorrow [Meryl:] Oh [speaker004:] Yes. [Meryl:] very kind [speaker001:] Oh he'll be able to get them in twenty four hours yes. [speaker004:] Oh aye, yes know them very well. [speaker001:] if he has any queries he can give me a ring but [speaker004:] I mean [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] know me very well. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So [Meryl:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You're blood pressure's okay. Your heart sounds fine so add Anapril and we'll have you on the starter pack. Er start on that on a Wednesday, beware of first does. So just watch it after the first dose that evening, if you g Especially if you get out of bed to have a wee. And then Frusamide for your water tablet and that's to start on Thursday and then review at end of pack. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay? [Meryl:] Yes. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] And that should make a huge difference I hope. Er and a Even though most Sometimes you're okay, sometimes you're not. And there is some fluid on your lungs [speaker004:] Aren't any of those in middle of the night like I use to. [speaker001:] No we don't want those. No we don't want those. But but if [speaker004:] I'm I'm [speaker001:] we start this now then it'll prevent a lot of further problems. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Meryl:] Right then. [speaker004:] Good, [speaker001:] Okay and that's one of [speaker004:] okay. [speaker001:] the reasons I think for doing it. [Meryl:] Erm thank you very [tape change]

[speaker001:] What can I do for you today? [speaker002:] Erm I came to see you a few weeks ago at night you know er It's just like I'm just filling up, you know, with mucus and stuff and coughing and I had er no sleep for about a week. I went on holiday, I thought [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] it was hay fever. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And it and it actually cleared up, got better while I were on holiday. I've been back a week. [speaker001:] u give you some anti histamines, did they make any difference at all? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Oh dear. Right are you actually getting wheezy with this? [speaker002:] Yes, very wheezy, yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Do you find you cough when you run around? [speaker002:] I've er I've only just I've only been coughing the last couple of days, but [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I I mean I mean I've been up since half past three this morning, [speaker001:] You wake in the early hours? I was [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] going to ask that as my next question. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right let's have a listen because this sounds this sounds slightly different from last time. Certainly [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] sounds less like hay fever I must say. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now er somewhere we have one of those, Right let's have a listen then. Just undo another Do you smoke? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Good. What job do you do? [speaker002:] Erm mechanic at place. [speaker001:] Nice deep breath. [speaker002:] [wheezy breathing] [speaker001:] [thinking noise] Oops. Picture of something in... everywhere. Hmm mm. You haven't been anywhere exotic have you? [speaker002:] No. I've only been to Devon and Cornwall, you can't really call [speaker001:] No you're not getting much there. And you haven't been abroad in the past six months? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Okay, [speaker002:] Never had [speaker001:] Right. What you do with this is take a big breath, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] put it your mouth and blow out as hard and as fast as you can. It'll make you cough probably, and keep your fingers off the s off the [speaker002:] Sorry. [speaker001:] scale. It's okay. Right big blast. [speaker002:] [breath] [speaker001:] You actually put it in your mouth. [speaker002:] Sorry. [speaker001:] It's alright. [speaker002:] [breath] [cough] [speaker001:] Oh dear, is that as hard and as fast as you can manage? [speaker002:] Well I can I can have another try if you want. [speaker001:] as if you're blowing out your birthday cake candle. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You remember the story bit about the big black wolf who [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] blow the little piggies house down. Well that's what you're blasting at. That's how you blast through one of these. [speaker002:] [breath] [cough] [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Well I did tell you it'd make you cough. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yes. Hmm. It's not very good is it? It's under four hundred. And [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you should be probably around six fifty. Given your build and height and age. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now the story's much more that of late onset asthma, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now a lot of asthmatics get it when they're fairly young. But you can get it in For the first time at any age. And [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] it may well be allergy mediated to h pollen or dust or something like that. So it may just be a seasonal thing. But I I think the diagnosis is asthma or what ever t whatever's triggered it off. And we need to treat you along those lines. Now. The drugs of choice for asthma are inhaled drugs. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Then you can use very small doses, they go straight to the lungs, and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] they work without any particular side effects. And you can use inhalers like this, or you can use inhalers like this. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You can use inhalers like th this puffer type. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. And what I suggest we do is seeing Georgina's here we send you through to see Georgina and she can, if she's got time, we can briefly run through one or two types. See which [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] suits you best. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] What what what I can't understand, I can be alright, at the day, and as [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] soon as it comes to to night time I [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] can feel me eyes getting sore. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And then it comes on and by the time two or three o'clock I I'm I'm a wreck, even [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] even if I haven't had a shave, even the bristles, everything [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] seems dead sensitive. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right. I I [speaker002:] Is that [speaker001:] As Well it i [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Asthma tends to flare up at various times it'll it tends [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to flare up with exertion,i er and it has what's called a diurnal rhythm so the body's natural rhythms affect it. Mm. [speaker002:] And so it tends to be worse in the early hours of the morning and you can have another blip in the sort of er middle to late afternoon as well. When your sort of body's running down anyway, you know it's it's a few hours after dinner time, it's not quite time to go home from work. It's a natural time to get tired and you can have a blip ten as well. Mhm. [speaker001:] Er and things like sort of er midday and a late evening er usually fine, and then you have y quite a lot of asthmatics say they wake up in the night, somewhere between two to five. And [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] it's very very common. What I think we'll do to start off with is to just put you on one inhaler and see how well you respond and if you only need it ev every now and again we don't need to do anything else. Some asthmatics need to be some On treatment on a in a regular preventative basis. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] In the same way we was giving people blood pressure tablets to take every day. Whether [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] they feel well or not. I think to start off with we'll just give you something to relive the symptoms [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and see what you need, so er [speaker002:] I mean it's been r been really bad as i You know I you know as er I don't know what to do with myself, you know [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it Course [LAUGHTER] no sleep at night []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And walking about in [speaker001:] Right you've only got a wheeze there's no evidence of [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] an f an infection, at all there. There's no crackles and it's expanding well and it peaks three eight two which is okay but it's quite down on what it should be. So you're going either Ventalin or Briconil And we're going ask Georgina to see if she's free. Okay? [speaker002:] Right, thank you. [speaker001:] Er and then we'll see what device cos the I mean there's there's a couple more devices apart from those, and you know different people are suited to different ones. There's no point in me giving you type A when type B's better for you. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So we'll ask her to run through and see what's what. Okay? Follow me. [speaker002:] Right. [tape change]

[speaker001:] There's nothing wrong with those. They're perfect. Absolutely perfect, now [speaker002:] Why is she [speaker001:] erm [speaker002:] getting her [speaker001:] Well she thinks you're on a high dose, you're not, you're on an okay dose. Now we've had you w That's right. We're we're waiting inn here we we're still on three months so we're alright. So mid October, so we've actually [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] got a a a while to go yet before we decide what we're going to do with that. But your levels are perfect, okay, it's got nothing to do with lithium. [speaker002:] No I I think it's just a really bad case of M E again. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. Well she she told me that your M E type symptoms had got a lot worse and I said that's we had at That's what I chatted with her about the other day but [speaker002:] I've I've been really housebound for five [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] weeks now, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and it's driving me mad. I I'm [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you know I feel just [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] dreadful. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But it but it is typical M E symptom. [speaker001:] Well that's right, a sort of low achy, tired, tired [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and more tired. [speaker002:] That's right and I'm very depressed. [speaker001:] Yeah. Are keepi You are I mean obviously you are keeping yourself going cos you're obviously getting out to come here and do bits and bobs but [speaker002:] Well this is the first time I've been [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] able to come here on my own. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm and that's not like me, I usually manage to you know. [speaker001:] [sneeze] Now you're usually okay, aren't you? [speaker002:] Yeah but er it really has knocked me for six this time. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm I think it's probably that infection that I had er [speaker001:] Yes. It may well be. [speaker002:] That thrush or whatever it was. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] Er it takes very little, well you know yourself [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] don't you? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean I found it in the past, you know any infection what so ever just knocks you for six. And and I'm just, you know, I I think that's probably why Jo was [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] c I think I she'd seen me at my worst on Friday [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I think it worried her a bit. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. But er your Lithium levels are absolutely fine. They're almost exactly the same as you were four weeks ago. [speaker002:] I thought they were actually cos I I even at that part of [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it it felt [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] erm [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] normal. [speaker001:] Yeah. Good [speaker002:] I mean the headaches are I'm reluctant to say [LAUGHTER] better [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah, but not so [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] bad. [speaker002:] but they're certainly no not so severe. [speaker001:] Yeah. Do you find they respond better if you take Dihydrocodeine when they're there as well? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] exactly what I's expect and you may find they actually sort of are on a down-slope still. And maybe it's a very shallow down-slope but still on a down-slope. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And that's what I'd [speaker002:] I do actually feel better. I I eat I don't usually take my first lot of tablets till sort of around dinner time. And I find sort of about an hour or so afterwards I do actually start to feel [speaker001:] Anyhow we're g we're gonna summarize your Lithium in October of course, that's [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And that's fine. What I would Apart As far as the levels are concerned I'd check them again in Septem Erm no hang on we've just checked them. I'd probably check them in October again. Two months, cos you seem stable. [speaker002:] Two months. [speaker001:] You seem st Unless you get any particular [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] to it I would recheck that in October. And then when we see you then we're going to sort sort of summarize what three months on effected levels of lithium has done for you. To decide whether to continue. [speaker002:] Is it a drug that you can stay on? [speaker001:] They've got people who've been on it for years and years. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You've got to keep checking the level. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] It it's a funny little drug it's related to sodium, old sodium, you've got loads of sodium. You take it it everyday as with salt. Er but i i it can replace sodium in certain systems of the body. In fact that's how it seems to work. But because of that you've got to watch it's effect on the kidneys, on the body biochemistry. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So that's what we have to check from time to time. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But it's very very safe provided you keep in within the sort of dosage Like driving on the motorway. It's safe if you st stick to the speed limit. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Usually. [speaker002:] Could you give me some more of that hormone cream? [speaker001:] Yes. I was going to ask how you'd gone with that. [speaker002:] Well it's better but it's not right. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Well you've only [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] been on it a fortnight. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So er but [speaker002:] Find I'm down to using it twice a week now. [speaker001:] Twice a week. Yeah. [speaker002:] So I haven't [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] used it this week. [speaker001:] Alright, okay. yeah. [speaker002:] But it's certainly an improvement [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to what it was. [speaker001:] Oh good good. I mean the advantage of that is you get loc You get the local benefits without generalized side-effects. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er and that can be a problem with some folk when you try to manipulate the hormones like that. But I'm actually using more and more of this cream, as I realize that er if you direct it towards the right part of the body in the right people, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] it works extremely well. [speaker002:] As I say it's just erm overall feeling generally [speaker001:] Well i mean [speaker002:] horrible. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And you know to some extent it's just time and keeping yourself ticking over that's going to get that aspect of things better. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And that's frustrating for you and it's equally frustrating for me because I know there's absolutely nothing I can do [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] to effect that. But it's important we keep other An eye on the other things, keep other things ticking over and things like the hormone cream and the lithium will be a help in that. [speaker002:] Yeah. I mean sometimes just by resting really er you know puts me back again but er it hasn't [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. Don't overdo the rest. [speaker002:] Well I were going to say i can't rest. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You've got to find a compromise. I mean it's it's always a com I mean the whole of life is a compromise but especially with this. the compromise between resting when you feel very very tired, and keeping yourself going so you don't seize up. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But you can't overdo the mobility cos you get very very tired. [speaker002:] Yeah. Well I've been you know, very conscious of that. And I and when you've had it a long time you [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] become And I'm not the sort of person to sit around willy nilly any way. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] But my legs [LAUGHTER] My legs are [LAUGHTER] like jelly, my body's like rubber, you know. [] And I sort of Oof. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Ooh I get so mad. [speaker001:] Keep other bits of you going. Okay? [speaker002:] When When do you want to see me again? [speaker001:] Well. All else being equal, I would say October with the lithium level and then we're gonna have our review of lithium. Okay? If anything flares up in between that's fine. There should be enough cream there now for four to six weeks on a twice weekly basis, but if you run out just give a ring in. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] That's fine. [speaker002:] Well I'll need my other tablets [speaker001:] Yeah. Well of course you'll need those anyway. [speaker002:] So er [tape change]

[speaker001:] Do have a seat, I'm trying to do eight things at once as usual. [speaker002:] Only eight? [speaker001:] Now Sorry? [speaker002:] Only eight? Only eight things at once? [speaker001:] Oh it feels like yeah, extensions going on there, builders there, Now your insurance company have written back saying can we have a report because your investigations have been completed. That's all very well but the hospital haven't written to me yet, so [speaker002:] I've not got my appointment through until the fifth of October. [speaker001:] Oh well they are complete then, oh that's okay then. [speaker002:] But the insurance company [speaker001:] About this little thing at the back of the eye? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh well I'll keep the insurance company er I w er we will send them a little note in that case, saying look, you know, this is the case, it appears to be an innocent lesion she's just been finely checked over on the eighth of October, do you feel you can now proceed? [speaker002:] I mean they they they've given [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [speaker002:] me insurance but it's [speaker001:] Oh right, so you are covered? [speaker002:] Sort of, they're going to review it. [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] When they've got the results from the hospital. [speaker001:] Okay, so that'll be what? Six weeks off or so? Yeah, okay. [speaker002:] Yeah, I mean that's that's not a problem any more. [speaker001:] Well I'll I'll erm Well if you've got the insurance the be the best thing to do is for me to tell them when you've actually been done. A letter to insurance company. [speaker002:] Yeah. Fifth of October, the [speaker001:] Hospital review over, okay. So we'll do that. Now. What else can I do for you? [speaker002:] I just need a repeat prescription for Dianette please. [speaker001:] Dianette. Yeah. Are you okay? [speaker002:] Yeah fine. [speaker001:] Periods, water works, bowels, wastes? [speaker002:] Yeah, everything fine. [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] You've had a smear in nineteen ninety one. Paperwork, there's the paperwork. Get that up to date. [speaker002:] Er possibly not Oh I might be. [speaker001:] Yes it's okay till December so we don't need to [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] do anything with that,. It'll have to be back dated after Christmas. No problems. Right, blood pressures what i need to check please.... Going away next week. [speaker002:] You are? Where you going? [speaker001:] Oh south Wales. [speaker002:] Mm, [speaker001:] The trouble is there's a hundred and one things to do before we go. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] teach you to go on holiday. [speaker001:] This' ll squeeze a little bit. [pumping up blood pressure armband]... It's fine. Absolutely perfect. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Yeah.... So we'll keep you on Dianette Do you smoke? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Couldn't remember. [speaker002:] I used to. Don't any more. [speaker001:] Good, that's okay.... Twenty four, eighth, ninety three. Okay, [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] six packets of Dianette [speaker002:] Wonderful, thank you very much. [speaker001:] Okay and I'll talk to your insurance company as soon as this letter comes through, hopefully [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] this won't be far off now. Six weeks. well. [speaker002:] Yes max s six seven [speaker001:] about seven weeks Okay. When you go i should actually ask them if they could write promptly because of this pending. [speaker002:] Yes I will. [speaker001:] Otherwise, you know, hospital letters can lag several weeks behind. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] But if you actually deliberately ask them to write promptly. And the eye department are quite good actually, it must be said. [speaker002:] Right. Bye bye. [speaker001:] Good. [speaker002:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] That's okay. [speaker002:] B [tape change]

[speaker001:] What can I do for you today? [speaker002:] It's me throat at the back er keep and I try to clear it and I can't. [cough] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] worse I should think. Is it a tickle or a pain or a [speaker002:] No it it just feels as though You know I can't er can't shift it. [speaker001:] Right. Do you actually cough anything up when you [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] it's this horrible feeling. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Does it hurt to swallow? [speaker002:] No it just feels as though like You know how you get summat stuck in your throat? That's just [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] how it feels like. [speaker001:] Yeah. You don't think you have got anything stuck? [speaker002:] I dunno. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You haven't had any bony fish? Or bits that have gone down the wrong way? Or As far as you're aware? [speaker002:] no. [speaker001:] You've got no problems swallowing? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Okay, chin up, open really wide, really really wide. Stick your tongue out.... Ah. Oh that's interesting, let me have a closer [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] look. Right, really really wide. Stick your Keep sticking your Keep your tongue out. Really really wide. Yes. Okay, let's try again. really really wide I won't put that in now [tape change]

[John:] ... Have you done much work? [speaker002:] I've done some work. I've tried [John:] Good. [speaker002:] to sort of [John:] Good. [speaker002:] what the hell I was supposed to do with. [John:] [LAUGHTER]... What were you doing? [speaker002:] There's some I'm totally totally confused on. [John:] You were doing differentiating [speaker002:] [cough] [John:] and then [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] leaving it and then going back to it to see if you could integrate it plus some graphs. [speaker002:] Some of it. Yeah. No no I don't know what I've done with the graph. I've been concentrating on trying to [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] I've gone through these I don't know how many times. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] I done them... and then I've took them down and I've gone back. I've g I've got about a half a dozen sheets of paper scattered all over the place, and I've decided to do it in this cos then I can just go to here. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] So I've done that. Now I can understand that, understand that. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] ... That goes to that, two X, but I'm not sure why. [John:] Now is that that cosh squared X? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] And that is... goes to two X. [John:] shine squared X. You mean do you mean? [speaker002:] No. It's two X in the book. [John:] Yeah. Okay. [speaker002:] Now he does make mistakes so that's not a [John:] Erm... [speaker002:] problem. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] And then there's That I can understand. But that is actually is not like that. That's X squared but when it's differentiated cos you've gotta go back into the bracket it comes out as that. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] And that then goes in [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] that. So I understand that bit. [John:] What you're doing I mean you're coming along very well really. [speaker002:] But [John:] Aren't you? [speaker002:] I'm not doing too bad. [John:] I think you're doing very well [speaker002:] But its like that. I don't get Y to twelve. I mean I know th I know that you carry the sine on because [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] it goes to sine squared, so you you only differentiate one and according to [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] that goes to sine squared. [John:] Right where your twelve comes from. [speaker002:] Well it it must be three times four is equal [John:] Right. [speaker002:] to twelve. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] But it doesn't always go to the front of them. Like here. [John:] Yeah. Well [speaker002:] The use of the the two X. So I'm not conversant with all the rules. [John:] Mm. Okay. Erm... how did you differentiate these? I mean are you learning these as they are or... I mean [speaker002:] No. [John:] do them? How are you doing it? [speaker002:] No I've I've just All I've done is because... Erm... because that is a function of that [John:] Right. [speaker002:] I've differentiated that. Well I didn't differentiate it but I but I did because I couldn't decide. [John:] As I as I was talking about for a new pattern [speaker002:] . [John:] how much you want to write it in there, it's up to you. Just show me how you did that one. [speaker002:] Well, all I [John:] That one [speaker002:] did was that I didn't know whether to do three sine squared... right? [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] Then differentiate the four X because that's your X... value. So that'd be three times the four sine squared. Then to differentiate the whole lot because it goes to cos. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] And that is is is not what I get cos what I was doing is doing them meself and then [John:] Well what Yeah. What [speaker002:] going and checking the answer. [John:] Erm [speaker002:] And then if me answer was wrong trying to [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] work out. [John:] Can you describe your methods. How you how you'd do that. Sort of writing down as many steps as you can. Ah. That's why i couldn't I thought I hadn't got me pen. [speaker002:] Erm well all [John:] Draw a nice picture instead. [speaker002:] All I did is I look at what I've got and if it's just a single term like that [John:] Right. [speaker002:] then you [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] know to just differentiate it. When it's two terms... like the the log erm and what like that [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] each of the two X multiplied by sine. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] That brings on another rule. Like that [John:] Okay [speaker002:] brings another rule. [John:] Erm... differentiate this for me then. Er... three X squared [cough] plus two. And put some brackets round that and raise that to the power five. Okay Y equals that. Sh show [speaker002:] . [John:] me all the steps. [speaker002:] Divide by D X two. That goes at the front, right? [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] To begin with. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] Now you get erm... three X squared plus two and then you differentiate What's in there, which'll give you... six. So if you multiply it by six and it's still raised to the power. [John:] If you differentiate three X squared what do you get? [speaker002:] Six. [John:] Differentiate [speaker002:] Six X. [John:] Right. Now. [speaker002:] . [John:] Okay. Right. That's, that's the method. Now why're you doing this? What's the theory behind it? [speaker002:] Dunno. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Right. Now what you're doing, or what you're, you're attempting to do... erm if I say Y equals P [speaker002:] Hmm. [John:] Find D Y by the X. And you can't cos you haven't got a you haven't got an X in sight. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Now what you've got here is Y equals U to the power five. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right? Now there isn't an X in sight. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] I've only got three X squared plus two there but you can't differentiate whit respect to three X squared plus two and then say you actually done it with respect to X. So... erm you've seen the cha chain rule function and a function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] This is, this is what you should be doing with it really. Erm we've got that. Y equals that. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Let U three X squared plus two. Okay. Now we've got... Y equals U to the power five. So we c can't find D Y by D X [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] But we can find D Y by D U. Right? Which is no problem. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Five by D to the four. Yes? [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Well that's found D Y by D U but what we're looking for is D Y by D X. And D Y by D X... is what? In terms of U and everything else. Remember what that bit? How to work that out? [speaker002:] Erm isn't it the... U. [John:] Okay. The easy way to remember it [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] is write it like that. D Y by D X equals D Y D Y over something times something over D X with D U in there cancel out. It isn't quite as simple as that but it works. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So D Y by D X gives D Y by D U times D U by D X. Well if U is equal to that [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] we can differentiate that with respect to X. We can find D U differentiating this side with respect to X you get D U by D X and [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] on that side then you'll get six X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So we want to find D Y by D X and it's D Y by D U then it's D U by D X. Well we've found D U by D X and we've found D Y by D U. So D Y by D U is equal to D Y by D X is equal to D Y by D U, which we've found from here, from Y equals [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] U right? four, times D U by D X which we found up here right? Now we haven't got X in it... yet so we can't give them the answer in that form cos they didn't tell us anything about U. You invented that so where do you put you place U... five times whatever U was... three X squared plus two... all to the power four times six X because normally bring that to the front. [speaker002:] Three X. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] is one. [John:] And you get thirty X.. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? Now, that's, that's what you should be doing each time with these With that in and and that much in sort of as a minimum. You wil you've obviously sort of seen the method somewhere and you're trying to do it in your head, but cos you're not going through it in a fairly formal way [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] you're... most of the time you're getting it right cos this is just making the right sort of guess and you're seeing the sort of When it gets to the awkward ones y you're just sort of Well maybe it's that, maybe its something else. Does that [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] help? [speaker002:] It does help, I mean that that I have seen before but I didn't sort of understand it and you've actually [John:] Well the thing is after a while when you've done quite a few it comes it comes fairly easy, and you can do it in your head. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But when you get to one where you can't do it in your head you've got to go back to this bit. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And sometimes I mean there, we sort of let. There might be times when we let you do the whole lot or when you have to have more than one go at it. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm... I mean if you've got something like, for example, erm say we've got the one we've just had. Y equals something to the power.... To the power five right? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But it wasn't three X squared plus two. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It was erm sine sine squared six X... plus cos three X [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. Now doing that in your head would be a bit awkward. [speaker002:] Mm.... [John:] But there you'd do it in three goes I mean, you could probably do it in two goes, but to be safe you could split it up into three goes so... [speaker002:] What rule does that bring out because that. [John:] Well [speaker002:] Is that still the same, you just [John:] There's an there's an add in there. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. So lets... erm. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [John:] L equal seven X... okay and... M equals D X. Right we don't we can probably do these these bits in your head quite easily. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So we've got here, differentiate that we get D L by D X.... D M by D X is true. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Now what were trying to find inside. We haven't done anything about this. It's all to the power five yeah? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So we could maybe do what we did last time. Let U equal this lot in the brackets. Sine squared seven X. three X... Now we're trying to find D U by D X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] At some stage. Well you could probably do that one in your head. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And what would that come to? [speaker002:] Erm that'd be fourteen cos squared seven X. [John:] So if you differentiate sine squared what do you get? [speaker002:] That. Cos squared. [John:] Cos squared [speaker002:] Well that's what I wanted to ask you. What happens to them? Because I know I asked one of my friends [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] because I wasn't I said how come it ends up being that and they said you just carry. When you're using the trig function and you're differentiating [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] it, that you do use because it goes to the front but it stays the same. It carries on right the way through. You don't lose the value of it. [cough] [John:] Good. Right. Okay. [speaker002:] But the squares I wasn't sure what happens to them and I confused him by asking him. [John:] Okay. Let's look at this. Erm... L is equal to seven X [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So [speaker002:] [cough] [John:] ... So it'll be about five stages in this. working it out any of them them all and then you can miss out the ones we do you feel you don't need.... Just look at that bit. [cough] You're trying differentiate what's inside there with respect to something. Well if you've got something like erm... that one.... Tan plus seven X. So we've got Y equals... sine L What're we having? seven X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Squared. [speaker002:] Squared. [John:] We write it like that because it's sine squared, it is more obvious what the meaning is. [speaker002:] [cough] Mm. [John:] Now we can't differentiate that... with respect to L. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Because it's not L, it's sine L. Okay. If that was i if that was L squared Y equals X squared, you could differentiate that with respect to X. If it's Y equals L squared you could differentiate it [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] to L. It's not. It's sine. So... we'll differentiate... gonna have another substitution on this one. So it's all just goes on and on and on until you can get something that's erm a straight forward one letter to the power so you can differentiate it. So let H equal sine L. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] now we've got Y equals H squared. Well that's no problem. D Y by D H... cos now two H. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] but now we've got H equals sine L. Does that define D H by D L?... [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And if you differentiate sine sine L you get? [speaker002:] Five sine L erm cos L. [John:] Erm... Well we've got cos. Now we're trying to find from this one. Let's work out what we're going to do. We're trying to find D Y by D X... but we can't find that, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] so we're going for D L... D L by D X [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] times D Y by D L. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Okay? [speaker002:] Why isn't that er cos? [John:] If you differentiate sine X what do you get? [speaker002:] Cos X. [John:] We don't get cos X or [speaker002:] So because you took the number of X value away. [John:] Erm [speaker002:] If you substituted L. You've taken that, you've squared X so you've got You've made that into another value. Right? So [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] you've made that Y equal to H squared. So that becomes H so the value of that [John:] I started off let H equal sine L. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Now... If if all let's say all we've got to differentiate was Y equals sine squared X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Now I could find D Y by D sine X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] differentiate that, with respect to sine X but not with respect to X. [speaker002:] No. [John:] Right. And if I if I found D Y by D sine X that would show me, not the gradient of this curve, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] the gradient of the curve that I would get if I plotted Y against sine X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But we're plotting Y against X which'll obviously be a very different curve with [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] lots of different gradients... Thank you very much sir. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker003:] Right I'll leave you to it. [John:] So for that there's there's no way of differentiating that with respect to X. [door closing] There is eventually because you learn it. You know Oh it comes out as cos X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Or comes out as whatever it comes out as. Right? You can differentiate sine X on its own like that. Y plus cos X, but we can't differentiate that straight off without changing and doing the substitution. So we'll let er what letter haven't we used yet? Q. So if we let Q equal sine X we can find D Q by D X... we can differentiate this side with respect to X and that side Q by D X when we differentiate. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? Now we've let Q equal sine X so we've got Y equals Q squared. We'll differentiate that with respect to Q. No problem. Right? differentiate both sides with respect to Q [speaker002:] To Q. [John:] Right. Okay? But we're looking for here, D Y by D X so we have D Y by D X is equal to and we just write, D Y D X. D Y by D Q there D Y by D Q [speaker002:] Two Q. [John:] Is two Q... times Q by D X.... Okay? [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Now we've found D Y by D X all we need to do is put back Q to what it was. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right which is sine squared X. So s two... sine squared X [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. So you're sort of right in a way that it's... two sine squared X but this wrong. Are you are you happy with that?? [speaker002:] Yeah. Mhm. [John:] Okay get Y equals X squared no problem. Two X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Y equals... log X squared you can't just picture log X. [speaker002:] No. [John:] very very different. We're finding the gradient... the gradient on a specific graph when we plot the X against the Y, the Y against the X. Right? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] If we say well that looks a bit awkward so we're going to plot the Y against sine X or the y against log X [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm or the the Y against I mean in this one if you You could plot that against X which is the normal way. If you tried to plot that against Think of how you'd do it if you had a graph and you plotted Y against three X squared plus two. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Well you'd just get Y equals A graph that would look exactly the same as Y equals X to the. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Which is why the gradient of it would be five times that expression to the power four. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. But that would not be the gradient of plotting Y against X. A very different graph. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So. Try and think of what you do when you find D Y by D X. It becomes oh well you you do some little tricks on numbers and you shuffle them about and that's the answer they want. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] If you can get it back that's why I say do the graph if you can get it back to erm... but it's not just something to the fifth, it's really It's something to the tenth. Right Okay one way differentiating that [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] is multiply it out. You've got five lots of brackets there. Three X squared plus two every one. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] In the half an hour multiply them all out, right? And you get terms in X to the tenth. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Everything else all the way down. And you could just differentiate each term quite simply then. once you've done the multiplying, the differentiation would be very simple. there'd just these straight powers of X, and you could do that and you'd get to the same answer as we get to it's just that this is a quicker way of doing it. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But that, that is a Y equals something X to the tenth, so it's it's not going to have a gradient that requires Y equals something to the tenth. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Which is why you must... do that sort of That that's probably all you need... for that bit. To know what you're doing right. Erm... I think it would be useful for you do one the same way. Erm... we'll do a fairly simple one and then use the same one but make it a little bit more complicated. [speaker002:] Mm. What what rule is that? The chain rule? [John:] a function of a function [speaker002:] Mm? [John:] the chain rule. You can't do it in one go, so you split it down into bits. [speaker002:] Because it is a function of a function of X? [John:] Yeah. Right. And then they want the gradient of Y against X. Not Y against the function, a sub-function of X. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So if we get something like... [speaker002:] ... [John:] Right. Have a go at that one. Yeah. [speaker002:] So we put the or sine squared... think it's better leaving it like that because it's sine brackets [John:] Well what do you think? [speaker002:] Well I think [John:] [cough] [speaker002:] Erm... think it's probably better if. [John:] Okay. Go on. Have a have a have a go, See what happens with that. [speaker002:] Alright. Well I know now that that's not right. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Good. Okay. Well okay. Fine. If you know it's not right, scrub that. Think of something more useful to let U be equal to Cos this is the the main part of it. Working out what you're going to put U equal to. [speaker002:] Well if I put U equal because brackets the bracket there. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] . And. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] and let that equal sine squared. [John:] Well we've had that already, but sine squared doesn't mean anything. [speaker002:] No. [John:] Does it? I'd like you to get your calcu calculator out, look up the sine of some some number but I'm not going to tell you what it is and then square it. [speaker002:] Mm. But how do you separate that then? That's it. That's that's it until I know or I know what I'm actually looking for in it I can run around chasing me tail all day which [John:] Right. [speaker002:] is basically what I do know. [John:] Right. Okay. Okay what've we got here? [cough] Erm... if I said Y equals sine squared X, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] you couldn't differentiate that. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] You'd have to do what we did on the other page. You'd have to do this. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So that was sort of on this one. What do we do there? What do we let U equal to? [speaker002:] Squared... [John:] Let Y equal Q squared. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Yeah, so we let the whole thing there that was raised to the power be equal to something. So... if we let V not U Right, we let U be that, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and let V If if U is zero, [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] then V will be You can write it as sine squared but I'm just writing this way cos it it means more. [speaker002:] Sine V brackets raised to the power. [John:] Three equals sine U squared. Okay? Right, can you take it from there do you think? [speaker002:] Well, I'll have a go. [John:] Try to sort of keep in mind what you're aiming for but don't rush getting there. See the steps along the way.... [speaker002:] [cough].... Is that right?... [John:] Right, can you see what you're doing? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] This isn't a simple two stage one like the other one. You've got to try and work out what this middle step's going to be. [speaker002:] Mm.... [John:] I'll give you I'll give you a clue and see if you can work out how you're going to get towards it. What we're going to do The way we can work it is something like D Y by D X is equal to, now we've got that, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] so we can differentiate both sides there with respect to U. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And find D V by D X. So we can D V by D U. D V by D U... times What do you want. Then come across D Y by And at the end, D X. So what've we got in terms of X? We've got D U. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So we can find D U by D X. So we can find something by D U. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] What've you got in terms of U? We've got D V in terms of U so we can find D V by D U. So we get D Y by D Y by D V [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right? Times D V by D U. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Times D U by D X. Which is simply those and those cancelling out. And [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] it comes to? [speaker002:] D Y by D U [John:] That'll come to D Y by D X. So that that'll go out with that that'll go out with X an you get D Y by D X. So you've got you've got the V in terms of U. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So you can find D V by D U. Okay? We've got U in terms of X so you can find D U by D X. And you've got V, now.... Erm you've got Y. Where's Y gone? You haven't got Y in this one. Okay. Then what's Y equal to? [recording ends]

[Elizabeth:] Hello... well my own name's Elizabeth of Dalvaine Glen Ayloch is that what you mean? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And er I've been there all my life and that's and that'll be eighty seven years old come May and er I've just worked on the farm all my days and er then of course when my people died I just er stayed myself, and then lived with other people here and there, just to help them. And then I came down to Kerry after my operations because I was er... for my feet, I had to get them... amputated because For the hardening of the arteries [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] but they did very, they did marvellous things for me down in in Dundee [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] so that I can now walk fine [LAUGHTER] with my plastic legs []. And then I come down to Kerry all winter because it's not good for me to stay up there myself all winter... and I have got good lodgings here. [speaker002:] So you're three years short of your ninetieth birthday. [Elizabeth:] Yes... I'm that. Aha [speaker002:] Can you recall much about your young days, Elizabeth, up Glen Ayloch [Elizabeth:] Oh yes oh well just ordinary country country days, just you worked on the farm. You got up in the early morning and helped in the farm, milked the cows, [cough] fed my cows and calves and... looked the pigs, and then you'd hens and chickens and the pet lambs and things like that. And then of course at er the time of the lambing time you had to go out and help with the lambing time,... you know, to help the shepherds with If he'd a weakling lamb you'd always to bring it in the house and then feed it in a bottle. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] And keep it warm... and then er if you had er Then you had the chickens to you had to set the clucking hens and and bring out as many chickens as you could.... And then after, in the winter, and then after that when it was near hay time, I had to go out and help with the hay. That was gathering it in and if they were putting it into little into tramp coles I had to get up and tramp hay round and round the boss and er I did that. [speaker002:] And what exactly were the tramp coles [Elizabeth:] Tramp aha, it was tramp coles they called them, they were ricks you know... and you got into and you put up the hay and you tramped round and round you see? And er helped all you could and then er [speaker002:] You used a a boss with the ricks? [Elizabeth:] Yes there was a boss in the middle and then they put that up. [speaker002:] What was the boss like? [Elizabeth:] Oh it was a three poi pointed thing. I it was er, you know, three three points like this. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] You see like that and [speaker002:] Like like the tripod? [Elizabeth:] Yes just like that. But it was er we call it the boss. [LAUGHTER] And we called them tramp coles but a lot of them called them tramp ricks. But it was er in er our country district it was er hay coles tramp coles then.... And then after the hay time it was er wearing on to harvest time. And I had to help with the harvest too. And when I was younger we hadn't a binder, we just had the ordinary mower. And er you went round and his father did er what they called the sheaf. He sat on this mower you see and and er as it cut the sheafed it off you see and we'd to make bands,y you know with pieces of s er And then the lifters put that on the bands and bound them and through the the site. So that was a whole days work often. [speaker002:] How many sheaves were in your rick? [Elizabeth:] Oh I couldn't say for that. [speaker002:] Now can can you just [Elizabeth:] There'd be cart there would be two cart loads anyway to making er the hay To make er That was in the harvest time for the harvest it would be oh nearly three three cart loads of sheaves for a for a stack. [speaker002:] For a stack? [Elizabeth:] Yes for a stack. [speaker002:] But how about the weer ricks? [Elizabeth:] Oh the the ha that was also You had that for er the harvest you had er to build the sheaves all round it, you see, too. [speaker002:] And how how did you make these weer ones? The the you know th the hay ricks? [Elizabeth:] The hay ricks oh they were just er They were the same but... they were no pointed like the h hay the... Like they have er time of the harvest time, the hay ricks was just round and round and nd d sloped up to a point.... And then er... a and then after they had been in hay ricks for a long time they were brought up to the farm and built into a bigger stack, a bigger thing. [speaker002:] How were they they brought up? [Elizabeth:] Brought up with a with a cart. Cart and er they put er what we called a big thing over the hays The hay Called that the hayrick over the. And then the when they were built Sometimes some folk used to build them into what they called a hay soo [LAUGHTER] It was a square kind of a thing but er... and I don't know why they put it into a hays hay soo as we say,... but it seemed to er... it seemed to be better to keep the h the wet out I suppose.... But in our days at home we just put it into a a a great big hay stack as we said,. [speaker002:] Did everyone up Glen Ayloch use the boss? [Elizabeth:] Yes everybody used the boss, everybody. Mhm. And in fact... the bigger farms than ours, they used to have a circle of stones. Round, you know, to keep it up off off the ground, and to keep it aired. [speaker002:] And what were they called? [Elizabeth:] Er... erm what do you call them again? It was the the found, F O U N D, the found, you know the foundation. But just ordinary language it was called the found. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] The found of the stack. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You never used the the word staffel stanes [Elizabeth:] No we that's was from No we didn't different Mhm. [speaker002:] Was brushwood ever used? [Elizabeth:] No n Well yes a lot of it was brushwood or the or erm branches of the birch trees that was that was laid out for that Above the stones and then you put that above. [speaker002:] Now can you tell me in a wee bit more detail how you did that? [Elizabeth:] Well it was just their own The the found of the thing was just built of big stones round about the size of the bottom of a stack. And then they've got er branches of the From the wood or er or sometimes people did broom and put it on.... [speaker002:] Mhm.... [Elizabeth:] So that's er all that I can say about that you see? And then of course the hay st the hay stack was built in a different style by the harvest stack it was built different. But the foun the foundation was the same. [speaker002:] Mm. What was the difference? [Elizabeth:] The It was different because the haystack was r rounded, you see? And built er well well you was when you was building the hay the harvest You see the sheaves was different you see? They were all built round and round and up until they came to what they called the... the e the part of the stack where they begin to to make it up to the top, you see?... And it was er They used to great pride in their in their er stacks because they had to make them as neat as they could and er well built, so that if the So that w that was good for the To keep the the wind keep them dry. And er and then people took great interest in making as bonny as they could in the top, to make a fancy top... what they called erm... c corn dollies. Er you've maybe heard of that. [speaker002:] Now tell me about this. [Elizabeth:] Well er they did them They made them f f fancy kind of things on the top like a They would maybe crisscrosses and things like that and m make a rounded thing like a Just like what some folk has a tassel on their bonnets, well we made that on the top of the stack. And every farm used to Farmer lad used to see where Who could make the best looking one.... Then there was always the harvest home dance, and then the school, that was the only place we had to dance in that day and they had it decorated with various kinds of the the the c corn dollies and erm [speaker002:] What type of shapes of corn dollies were there? [Elizabeth:] Oh they were they were er crisscrosses and er... and r and some of them would be rounded. But most of them were just a a crisscross kind of a thing and then some would be have a round bit and then this little corn dolly this little... n knob on the top. [LAUGHTER] That was that was you see. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] like that. [speaker002:] That wasn't the same thing as the maiden? [Elizabeth:] The maiden's the we what we called the maiden was the last sheaf, it was cut er the last sheaf in the on the er on the fields was called the maiden sheaf. It was great thing to keep it and it was always kept and looked after until the following year. [speaker002:] Who who got the maiden? [Elizabeth:] Oh the whoever the whoever the farmer At least the it used the What would I say? The grieve on the farm.... We didn't have a grieve it was just my brothers that was there at the time. But the sheaf was always cut The last sheaf was cut then it was er put in the barn and kept there for the year [LAUGHTER] and that was called the maiden sheaf. [speaker002:] Mm. And what was the the purpose behind the custom? [Elizabeth:] Oh it was just er just I suppose luck, just an idea to have the last sheaf it was called the maiden sheaf. Mhm. [speaker002:] And every farmer up the glen would do this? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes everybody had their last sheaf. Th Looked after it, aha. Oh great competition it was, in my day about who could build the best stack er you know both in the hay coles and the and the harvest time.... So... And then of course we had our own thrashing mill and we did our own thrashing but it was great fun down the glen when they got the thrashing mill in. It was er you know they came with a big traction engine and the thrashing mill and then they they got up early in the morning and there was the man that looked after the thrashing mill and fork from the carts onto the... onto the mill. Then there was somebody cutting string, cutting the sheaves you see? And then there was the man to look after the rest of the straw and another one for the what we called the calf And the corn, oh it was a great day the day the thrashing mill came to the glen. [speaker002:] What was done with the calf [Elizabeth:] The calf was er the calf was the chaff you know from that. Aha that was just went in It was all blown to the side and that was it was kept just for the for the carol beasts for the sheds you see, for the that was what the what we saw what they bedded them down with that. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] The calf Mhm. [speaker002:] And and and say your mother and grandmothers day was it used for tykes at all? [Elizabeth:] Er yes they did that. Yes the best if there was a dry time a dry stack, they kept that very best but for the calf beds,... both for the bothy and the house. You know there was no downs fancy things in my day when they were I was little... you see?... [speaker002:] Mm.... Going back to the harvest time [Elizabeth:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker002:] Away back in time or maybe what your [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] mother told you, [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] did folk come from other parts to help with the... harvest? [Elizabeth:] Yes the tinkers used to come up from Blair Gowrie to to do that long ago. I remember myself, one time we had we had two grand fields and it were They were almost ripe when it came an awful time of rain, and they were just a sort of flattened. So father had to get the men up from Blair Gowrie, there was six of them that came. Er well there was and their wives. And they just had this the er er... You know the... what was I to say... they had their their s scythes to cut the What was I to say?... They had their their scythes to cut them with, you see? And then the the men cut the like that and then the women s they lifted the, and the next lad he stuck them so that it was a very busy time. It was a busier time for us because we had to feed the [LAUGHTER] the the six of them w we put them into a big shed and they just slept there but we we gave them their dinner, they managed to make their own breakfast and their tea whatever They had bread and stuff like that but we had to make their dinner for them. So it took them days but we were very glad to have them because they were It was such a good crop and they were lying flat. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] So that was did. [speaker002:] How did you get word to them at that day? [Elizabeth:] Well they they just went out and... and cut the round about you see even though it was damp they cut it though it was wet, [speaker002:] I see. [Elizabeth:] they they didn't wait till it was dry. [speaker002:] But I meant how did you get word down to Blair Gowrie? [Elizabeth:] Oh they just... There would always be somebody would be on the road at any time looking for harvest time and my father would say to someone, tell the McGregors We called them that time, so the McGregors came up went tell told the others. So the whole camp lot came up and er they Oh but it wasn't only our farm, they did other farms by. And then of course we had the mower and then we got a binder... and now I see they've er a harvester. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] It was a great thing the other day when I saw the combine harvester coming up the glen. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But going back again to the [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] the tinkers, did they come up with their own scythes? [Elizabeth:] Yes they come up with their own scythes oh yes they all had that er and oh could fairly sharpen too. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And oh it was great to see them mm. Th they sometimes brought their own two little boys with them and they would make the the bands to cut them bands to do the sheaves, so.... [speaker002:] Did your grandmother I don't know if you had [Elizabeth:] Aye I've a grandmother and everything. Aha. [speaker002:] time to listen much to her when you were younger? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] But did did she ever talk about the the thre the thrievers [Elizabeth:] No she never said that no. [speaker002:] The the men and women that used to go with their own sickles. [Elizabeth:] Yes that oh oh That was a l that was in my great grannie's time that they went there. That was the Mhm. No there was none of that near in our time. But in my great grannie's time I think they did that. [speaker002:] Where where did they they come from? [Elizabeth:] From Blair Gowrie and district that's usually where all those working people came from. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Great l vans of them used to go round the glens doing that. [speaker002:] And did some go from the likes of Deeside or Braemar down to the the lowlands? [Elizabeth:] No I suppose they had but er I No that I knew of. That was beyond me. Mhm. [speaker002:] That's away back. [Elizabeth:] That was further back that was in what I would say my great grannie's time. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Mhm, so that's a hundred year ago and more. [LAUGHTER] Mm. [speaker002:] A hundred year before yourself? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] A hundred year before myself yes.... [speaker002:] Now again say before the the great war, the first war [Elizabeth:] Yes aha. [speaker002:] what other types of folk would be coming up Glen Ayloch [Elizabeth:] Oh they were just all that kind all those working kind of folks going up the glen. A right decent lot of folk they were from Blair Gowrie. There was the Stewarts and there was the er the Townsleys and Higgins, you called them and Whites that was the four lot.... Ooh, hard working chaps they were too. Honest fellows they were. And just last Two year ago I met one of the older kind and oh she wasn't pleased where they used to do their put their camps. She somebody has fenced it off, she says I could see them far enough, she said, we always had that bit for our camp and it was further down the glen. [speaker002:] Whereabout in the glen did they camp? [Elizabeth:] They'd camp just beyond the Between the hotel and erm the the What we call the round house Knockshannoch Do you know where it is? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Well there was a bit there where they always used to camp. But then when they went up when they passed it just two year ago it was fenced off. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And did the [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] tinker folks er have any things to sell? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes any amount any amount of pots and pans and laces for your boots and, what we call pirins that was cotton reels. And and thread and er then there was even great lots of things for your Even ordinary pins they had that,... and anything you could near ask for they had it. Tapes and yards of lace and and er sometimes some of them would have even pieces of cloth for an apron, if you know what an apron is. [LAUGHTER] For a pinny. Mhm. They were the better kind that managed that because they didn't have much money to buy them, so.... And then the men folk used to give them a bit of tobacco and stuff like that, mhm.... And sometimes if there was just a few of the men maybe two men in the camp, they would come and help with even fencing or or erm build up a dyke or something like that Even drain they would stay for days if they wanted draining the fields, mm it was that. [speaker002:] Did they do any work in the woods? [Elizabeth:] Er no no not no in my time, no. [speaker002:] Mm. How about they old style pack man that used to come? [Elizabeth:] Oh er he used to come round with that, aha. He used to go He came up when he would go from Blair and he would come up our glen and he would maybe walk over the hill to Braemar, or over the hill to Clover I suppose. He had a big pack on his back, I don't know where he stayed He he stayed in everybody's farmsteadings or some place like that.... There was a place he lived further down the glen and the old farmer said I've no objections to you going in there but give me your pipe. He would never let [LAUGHTER] him smoke []. [LAUGHTER] You see, he would be afraid for him setting fire to the steading I suppose. [speaker002:] And did the pack man have a name or? [Elizabeth:] I think the only body that I knew was er an old man McDonald, you called him, was a pack man at that time. he was a right old chap him. I think he was an Aberdonian really the way he spoke anyway but he'd been brought up in Blair Gowrie. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] So that was them. [speaker002:] And what was this pack like? [Elizabeth:] Oh they had it well would just be anything it was just a long roll th great big roll, just like It just sort of wrapped in a grey eh a big waterproof kind of co covering, and he would have er shirts and and er things like that for men to buy, or er and sometimes er overall or a pinny, as we said, for mother and the like of that. Oh it was a great thing when the old pack man came to undo his rolls of things, mhm... so [speaker002:] And did he bring the news? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes anything that happened down the glen or way was heard that from the pack man so it was bound to be true. [LAUGHTER] Mhm. [speaker002:] So folk looked forward to the pack man? [Elizabeth:] Oh I couldn't say for that. [speaker002:] You know they looked forward to him coming round? [Elizabeth:] Aye aha. [speaker002:] For a crack maybe? [Elizabeth:] No oh he would no he had always his his idea coming for to sell something. [speaker002:] Ah I see. [Elizabeth:] Aha. And then that's another thing he always got something to eat which was a great help of those days, and especially if there was If mother was baking or anything like that he always got a scone or something, [LAUGHTER] mhm. And er Oh and if he If the time of the the er tinkers that they came round, if they came round about the time of the the pig killing they would look for the piece of bacon. They hoped to get a bit of that if you know, aha. [tape change] [speaker002:] Can you tell me about how the folks long ago used to do the the pig? [Elizabeth:] How they killed the pig? Oh it was a great day the day the pig was killed. You had to get up in the morning and see that there was plenty of a great pot of of hot water, boiling water. And then er the man that went round with all these knives and things he went down to the to the soo cray if you ken what that is. [LAUGHTER] And he got the pi and then held the pig and I never was at the actual killing but I know they did er Then they cut its throat you see? And then they put into what we called the... the skeel great big round thing like a What we call it? Er I suppose a tank, now, a round one, big thing. And then they scraped and scraped and cleaned it and then they hung it up by the legs up, pulled it up to the steading, up to the ceiling. And then er did the rest of the scraping and then they er... opened it up and took out all the intestines and er the livers and the lights and tongue and things like that. And it hu go And it was there and it was left all night, and next day erm the man came back again and he cut it down the back with a big saw, and divided it up and then it was taken to the house where it was er up and then salted in a big barrel. And then, before that, if you if you was to make the mealy puddings the it that always had to be cut into bits and emptied and washed well in cold water, and with salt and that, and that was They would done that for three days before they were then filled up to make the mealy puddings.... But then next day after the s pig was killed up it was The the head had to be cut into sections and well cleaned and left overnight in the salt water and To clean any bloody parts on it. And then it was boiled and boiled that it was er tender and that and then it was taken out and cut into bits and this is what a potted head And then it was That was done and then er Where the water what was boiled there was often fat but that was all skimmed off, and er next day there was as much water in the And er meat from the head was put in and pepper and salt and that, and then it was boiled again and then put into little dishes and that was your potted head. So that er it was good food for for weeks on end. We had a fine dairy that we er er of stone shelves and and that kept cool when everything And it was good for weeks. So that was our potted head, and then the the bacon itself was kept in er salt water [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] And er it was salted and then For a few days, and then it was put in what we called brine,s more salt, and covered and it would be there for six weeks. And then it was taken out and er dripped and cleaned, and then it was hung up in the kitchen to dry, and that was how the hams were done. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And... did you ever hear of saltpetre being used? [Elizabeth:] Yes sometimes, we didn't use saltpetre, but a lot of people used saltpetre in it too. I don't know why they did it. Whether it was give it a better flavour or no, I don't know but we never used the saltpetre. [speaker002:] Where did most folk hang the the pig? [Elizabeth:] They ha the er When it was cut up like that, in the house there was er [speaker003:] Cleaks [Elizabeth:] There was cleaks there was er cleaks in er in Most of the kitchens had rafters, a lot of them, and there was cleaks just specially for the hanging the pigs and the er the hams of the... And then you left them until they were fairly dry, and then you had to cover them well and truly with a for all summer, because the fly would go for them, if the weren't properly salted and dry. And that would have been an awful loss if you had lost a... a a a ham. Cos if the the blue fly went there and and maggots got into it, it would just be a job. Mhm. [yawn]... [speaker002:] Can you tell me about the the older type of houses up the glen, what they were like inside? [Elizabeth:] Oh I don't know. They were just o ordinary little places, all the places that ever I was in,... they were Yes the the kitchen and that had we'd rafters and then there was er the fireplace a just er... generally just like, were two stone and there's ribs across. They were like that. And er any bigger kitchen, there was nearly always er what we called a box bed in it, and er it was er That was where the mother and the father lived. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now Elizabeth, up Glen Ayloch what types of area where most of the houses built on? Was on the heights or was it in the hollows? [Elizabeth:] No they was on Well just the side of the hills, the Most of the houses were that. There was very few there was very few houses built high up. In fact Well there was Craighead was it was built up high on the hill side. And another one was Bollyeld it was high up, it was far above the road. [speaker002:] And what were the the parts of the glen called? [Elizabeth:] Well the place where I was lived up we were called er er the we were Upper Islay, over passed the fence, aha. I think my granny used to speak about the Clachan at Dalvaine, when there was er about five or six houses there and the that was the That was Upper Islay. And the next lot was Foulder and then the next part of the glen was Claypots And then there was the Broulands and then there was the Curtain of Glen Ayloch Er that was where the the market used to be held at the Curtain of Glen Ayloch where the hotel is now. There's very few who'll speak about the Curtain I think now cos they speak about the hotel, but we say the Curtain of Glen Ayloch And then and then further down was Dyke Ends and that was our lower end of the glen, so that was there. Mm. [speaker002:] In your granny's day were there quite a few folk? [Elizabeth:] Oh a great lot of folk, even round about m our place there was forty people. At our wee place, er you see my grandfather had the meal mill, [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] er and er so he employed somebody there and then was the little farm at the time. And across the way there was another farm, a little one, it was called Auchenree Was Auchenree and there was Dalvaine, and then there was er er Dalvaine cottage, and then there was another house called The Hillock. And another one at the watersi at the burnside was called the Burnside Dalvaine. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And the people that lived there there was were there for the season, but they would help with the harvest, so they go dyking and fencing and er r r and at the time of the shooting season they would be employed with poling man and dog man or something like that of long ago. [speaker002:] And and who were these people? [Elizabeth:] Er the who came to the be the shooting tenants? Oh we had it was the Airleys we had at that time. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] And then they let their big house er at Auchen to Sir Anthony Edens was even there and erm a lot of those kind of people were there. And who else was there? Er... well a lot of the people was there. And then there was er Lambert and Gwyn and Butler the tobacco people. They were another set of people that had it. [speaker002:] Mm... but who were the the people that used to help out with the dyking and? [Elizabeth:] No the men that was work oh the men that was just there was oh Those names was the one who came for the shooting season. [speaker002:] Mhm. But you know you mentioned that people used to help out with the dogs. [Elizabeth:] Oh they were helping there. Oh there was a lot of them, there was MacGregors and Ramseys and and er McNichols and MacKintoshes and goodness knows any amount of them. [speaker002:] They were glen folks? [Elizabeth:] They were glen folk yes. And Thompson he was a grand lad he could do everything near. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] He he was he could plant trees, he could er... er you know, he did that and he could see to planting and er er and looking after woods and things of that kind. [speaker002:] You mentioned there the Clachan of Dalvaine. [Elizabeth:] Yes that was where Islay is, aha. That was what my granny used to speak about that place [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] we all the little folks round about it. [speaker002:] And are many of these houses now in ruins? [Elizabeth:] They're all in ruins, yes. And there's a bit a very... a very Aye, one that my father used to tell us about it. Long ago the the abbots of Cupar Angus, they came up to spend the summer m summer months at Dalvaine. And down by the water side it there's a... a sort of a ruin just you can see it and he said that was where they stayed, a little monastery there. And the abbots used to come up and then they would... stay and have their meal in Kilray down at what they called the aiden or the tavern, and then they would walk over the hill of Kilray right up until they came to Dalvaine. And I suppose it was some of my great grandfathers or some of them, had the looking after of them. They had to see that they were provided with milk and butter and eggs and er venison and the rabbits and things for their food. This old this old lad he was called James Graham of long ago. [speaker002:] Well well. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. So that's many hundred years ago now but it is er er it's not long ago since I read that in w in museum in Ayloch [speaker002:] Ah. [Elizabeth:] But er But I've known that story about the er about them coming up that way and they stayed at the the burnside at Dalvaine. [speaker002:] And h you heard it from your father? [Elizabeth:] Yes, aha, my granny too, spoke about that this lad he'd to look after them. [speaker002:] So so not only did you read it you heard about it. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. I heard about it and then I read about it mhm. [speaker002:] I see. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And you mentioned the ruin where they used to live, did that have a a name? Where the abbots lived? [Elizabeth:] The abbot's li the abbots lived at the burnside at Dalvaine, that's what they call this little place. In fact you could see it near yet the where it is round about Dalvaine.... It's just I I It's just opposite the house, the farm house at Dalvaine, on the right hand side there's the there's the old lime kiln, it's there. And then there's traces of er you know you could see where the old foundations and things were. That's so that's there the abbots used to stay. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] Lots of long ago. [] Mhm. [speaker002:] Did your... grandparents mention any other parts of the glen that used to used away back in time that are just ruins now? [Elizabeth:] No I don't know anything no. The only thing is another old place that in was Auchentipple There used to be a chapel there and it was called the Hunt Chapel, but it's just a hunt now. And there used to be a a little croft croft there of long ago, and... it's er it's all planted now with trees all round about it but I suppose they could still see where they used to be A black smith had stayed there.... I don't know why they'd ever had a little place yonder but there was crofts near everywhere, [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] long ago. Mhm.... And then there Further up the glen from me, from our, house there's a place called Dalnasnecht It's a little place in the beside the water and beyond it there's a great piece of ground on the hill and it was called er Argyll's Reed where Argy Where all Where Argyll's men stayed when they came to burn down the bonny house early, Forter Castle. [speaker002:] And where about was that now? [Elizabeth:] That's er you know h have you be Did you ever notice the old building at Forter? [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] Well that was where the the Where Argyll and them came and they burnt it down. And his people were er billeted roundabout, where they were... lifting everything they could I suppose to eat and kill or something. But this piece of ground was always called er Argyll's Reed. [speaker002:] And that's where? [Elizabeth:] Argyll's men stayed the the [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] the soldiers. [speaker002:] Whereabout is the actual? [Elizabeth:] That was opposite er further up the glen from me from [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] Dalvaine. It's up and it's past It's it's Presnareburn in the Skrandert I it was to be a fort of long ago too, Fort [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] , and then across from that is er there's Dalnasnecht [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And the and it's up there. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Very good. [Elizabeth:] That's ancient history anyway. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And were there many er local parts named... by the people of the glen?... Hills and rocks and all sorts of things? [Elizabeth:] There's a place just just across the water from us and it's called Dalinnoch That's a nice little flat bit and er And Dalnasnecht was another one,... and er... [speaker002:] They seem to have a Gaelic sound to some of these names. [Elizabeth:] Mhm, there's there all Gaelic, There with Gaelic was spoken in the Glen Ayloch many years, er even though the lower end of the glen didn't. Our folk up at Dalvaine and that, they spoke the Gaelic long after it was spoken down the glen. [speaker002:] Is that so? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. My granny could speak it well and my great granny she could speak it and read it. I don't remember her of course but I've heard my father and them speaking about it. [speaker002:] And could your mother? [Elizabeth:] Oh she never spoke it, er she was a lower glen but she didn't speak it. And didn't like it either. [LAUGHTER] Mhm. [speaker002:] So roughly when do you think the Gaelic faded from the upper part [Elizabeth:] Yes oh [speaker002:] of the glen? yes. It er Oh it faded... er none of us Oh no... Just a word here and there, some of them spoke it.... Wait till I see now. When I was at school which'll be eighty year, ago the people there er spoke it. The the He was the old teacher and he and his sister never spoke anything else but the Gaelic. You called them MacGregor and er he was good. This MacGregor he was to be a minister, and he was a well educated man but unfortunately he'd made a mistake when he preached his sermon so he gave it up. [LAUGHTER] Why I don't know, but his sister and him never spoke anything else but the Gaelic. Mhm. [Elizabeth:] I mind of them when I was little, fine we used to go in and see them. So that was them, so that's eighty years ago. [LAUGHTER] Mhm. [speaker002:] And the upper part of the glen had Gaelic far longer than down the bottom? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes an Yes. From our lot, yes up that way. But then it just all died out and died out and there was nobody then. My father had quite a lot of Gaelic words, quite a lot. So that was that. [speaker002:] But going back to some of these places you mentioned, were there any rocks that were given a name or stones? [Elizabeth:] Up w oh I suppose there would be, further up the glen aha. [speaker002:] You never heard any stories about certain stones having a [Elizabeth:] No a name no no. Oh there was the stone I ken, the big stones in the road up the glen er what we called the Gled stane Er it's a great huge stone and it has a right story about it. It [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] it was the... th the old man that lived in er u up in Mount Blair, he didn't like the folk going to the kirk and he lifted this big stone and fell down. [LAUGHTER] So that's one of the stones is called the Glen Ayloch the Gl the Gled Stane mhm. [speaker002:] Again going back into your grandmother [Elizabeth:] Time, aha. [speaker002:] and grandfather's time,... did they ever mention to you whether folk use to cross from Glen Ayloch into other glens? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes there was a there was an er a er a right of way between Glen Ayloch and Glen Shee, and especially out of what we called our hill. I've walked it myself. You walked out Glen Bainey into Loch Sheichernich and then down into Glen Shee, and er go out that way. That was called Glen Bainey And there is a stone out there a great huge stone oh that was called Clachnagowan [LAUGHTER] I've seen that many And if you went there you If you got the length of Clachnagowan you looked right out the hill... right out to Glen Bainey [speaker002:] And who would be using these tracks? [Elizabeth:] Oh there was tracks There's is that and the fact er they can go out that way with their Land Rovers and things [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] now. [speaker002:] But you know in in those days. [Elizabeth:] Oh no, they'd just a pony. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] A pony or their feet, I walked it myself, but er right out that way. [speaker002:] What a pony to carry stuff? [Elizabeth:] Er yes a lot of folk went out that way with their ponies er in fact that's how they used to take the men when any Glen Shee person died in Glen Ayloch they took them out that way to the kirk here in Glen Shee kirk. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Oh the dead er out that way.... I think about the last ones that was taken there was an old... man Ramsey that died at er Dalvaine, and they carried him out that way. And when my father spoke about He got a holi they got a holiday from the school, that day, because the teacher came to see this old body going out the glen that's body and they walked out, so it'd be two miles out and then maybe another three miles up the er Glen Shee kirk here, so they had a good bit to carry him. [speaker002:] That was a Glen Shee man? [Elizabeth:] Yes and it was Ramsey you called him. He was [speaker002:] Mhm. And [Elizabeth:] he was an old tailor. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And that was that was how he wanted back to Glen Ayloch back to Glen Shee. There was other Ramseys too, that lived further up the glen but they were taken round on the road [LAUGHTER] way []. They weren't cald cra carried over the hill.... So that was them. [speaker002:] Was there ever a custom mentioned to you whereby they... used to put a cairn down? [Elizabeth:] Oh there's a er er There is that there's a cairn there was A man lost on the hill of Kilray and there was a cairn put there. I don't know whee it is now but it was there. Yes the and there's a place out Glen Bainey er at the march between Glen Shee and Glen Ayloch and there's a a fence er a gate or a steps at just the Glen Shee folk waited at that side to meet the Glen Ayloch folk to take the coffin over the dyke. [speaker002:] Is that so? [Elizabeth:] They would they would never allow our men to go over but they would be there to take it. [speaker002:] That's most interesting. [Elizabeth:] And yes it was just an idea that they had, they were there waiting to take the coffin over the dyke. [speaker002:] They just wouldn't cross over? [Elizabeth:] No, our men wouldn't cross over with it but the Glen Shee folk would be there to receive it [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And they would follow on behind but they wouldn't carry it. Oh just funny old stories. [tape change] [speaker002:] Now Elizabeth, who was this mannie you were mentioning? [Elizabeth:] Oh the the the blind fiddler. Oh he was a great lad what a great big strong looking fine looking man he was when we knew him. And er he go was p partly blind, wasn't just quite but he And he'd two dogs with him. And er he went round and I don't know I never heard him playing the fiddle, but they said he was very good at fiddling, but he was a grand one for old stories,, and er he was just doing farms here and there so Then eventually he turned so old he'd only one dog and then er he died down at the D At a place called the Doonie And this man D Duncan, he had just an er one of the er I think one of the tramps from Blair Gowrie was working to him and he came up and told my father and my father went down to see about him, you see him being in the parish council. And that was the poor old man he was just just about away so they sent for the ambulance and took him down to Forfar to... They used to call that the poor house, I don't know what they call it now but it was the poor house in those [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] days and er but And so the father saw that he was safely there and the other... Then when he came back he went into the house and said to Duncan er Was you speaking to the old John old John MacGregor and f He said I was that and he said I'll let you see... what my man got, and this was the little bag of gold. You know he was that tramp must have been an honest man because father said there was quite a little of sovereigns in that, and so I suppose it had been given to the parish and had seen that the man was properly buried, and then they discovered that he was an Aberdonian. But I don't know He was educated and all. Cos he he When he liked he could speak very well but how he'd taken to the road I don't know, but he was well known er er as the blind fiddler. [speaker002:] When did er the blind fiddler pass away? [Elizabeth:] Oh that would have been... I think it was between the wars, I think between the time of the world wars. Was after world war one anyway I mind of that, so say it might have been in the twenties he might have done I wouldn't say proper [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] but the might been that. [speaker002:] And he used to come for years? [Elizabeth:] Oh he came r he came round er e everybody and everybody was kind to him, just the sake of hearing him speaking. Mhm. But his dogs didn't like men folk,... I don't know why if they d the men folk went near the dogs would growl. But if any of the women folks which I've gone out with a a bowl of soup to him many a time. And er you could even stroke his dogs but er the er I don't know how it is, he said, but they never say no to you. [LAUGHTER] Aha. [speaker002:] Where did he used to stay when he was up the glen? [Elizabeth:] Where'd he used to stay? Oh anybody would take him in. He used to stay a lot with the Broughs at Balnamenoch that was further down the glen. And he he stowed with er stayed with the Ogilveys at Fortar He stayed er at night, so that was Oh and he used to walk all over the countryside. Everybody knew the blind fiddler and he had always his kilt on and But after a while, I don't know, the next time he came round I mind he had trousers on and we didn't think he was the same man at all, [LAUGHTER] no. [speaker002:] Was it just in the summer he came around? [Elizabeth:] Yes in summer times, aha. [speaker002:] So where do you think he went for the winter? [Elizabeth:] Oh it'll likely have been about Blair Gowrie or Pitlochry or some place, just anybody who would have taken him in. but he he would never stay except, you know, it always had to be in respectable kind of a barn or something he would live in, least And in fact instead of that he would ra if it was good days he would rather lie at the dyke side. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] You know he was an outdoor man. [LAUGHTER]... so, [speaker002:] How about the old mole catcher? Did you have one of these men? [Elizabeth:] Oh we did that, a great old lad [LAUGHTER] he was []. Mhm. And I mean a great thrill he was to us, he cried come here and see this and here was among all his little moles, he had a white one a pure white mole. I mind fine we all crowded round to see the old mole catcher with the white mole, mhm. And I don't know it was truth he said I'm just collecting all the mole skins for somebody's mo For a coat, but that was just a story I think. [LAUGHTER] I don't know, but anyway he got the white mole, so he was delighted to see it. [speaker002:] He didn't live in the glen? [Elizabeth:] Oh no no he came from... Where did he come from now? Aylot h I think he did [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] We did have a mole catcher in the glen, but he wasn't the regular, he just occasionally. It was a man... Robertson, I think was his name, but he was the mole catcher. Aha. [speaker002:] And he But he wasn't so regular? [Elizabeth:] No and we had another man I and I cried to him, What do you call him again?... I cried Will, I said there's a mole in this kitchen m mole this... there's a mole of this garden Will. And he said do you think sh she would need a worm, meaning me. [LAUGHTER] And he cried do you think she would need a worm and he held up a worm, but he came and put this poisoned worm in the mole, you know that's what they did, they had er mole er worms that had doped with poison, you see and then they dropped them in the hole and that was the end of the mole. [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] Was there a custom in the glen for folk to go ceilidhing to one another 's houses? [Elizabeth:] Oh that was that was always done at new year time, or at least It wasn't so much new year day as we called Yule Day. That was the fifth of January, that was old Yule was... the fifth of January was January was y Old Christmas,... er Chris er Yule Day was old Christmas day.... And oh Yeah, we went round from one house to the other and you A whole week of it it was more or less. You know, you went there and there was fiddling and singing and dancing and eating and drinking and this to Party time all the way. [speaker002:] Throughout the rest of the year did folk visit one another? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes quite a lot. Quite a lot of coming and going. Yes and then we've fiddles or melodions they all m met at each others houses and had great nights. [speaker002:] And were there certain men or women that were known for their stories? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes and they were great extravagant stories some of them too. [speaker002:] Aye. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Th What types of stories might be told? [Elizabeth:] Oh they would just tell you some extraordinary story they'd seen They'd heard Seen a ghost or heard a ghost or a something. Mm when he This man told a great load of stories and in fact it began it was really thought true. He always swore that when he was going over the Baloch that's the the road between Glen Ayloch and Kil and Glen Shee, he said i if you were at certain hour of the night he said as sure as anything there was a man on horseback pass you with this horse. He thought he heard the clatter of it in the roads,... oh it it had awful stuff of that kind. But we liked to hear his stories. Mhm. [LAUGHTER]... I'm sure you could add a lot of your Glen Uig stories to mine. [speaker004:] No I didn't know much about the glen at all But no nothing exciting enough to speak about. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] You've more stories than I do. About [Elizabeth:] Well I was brought up on the story. [speaker004:] the the two brothers that went away and they were driving a car and one said to the other, watch what you're doing and the other said to him, but I'm not driving [LAUGHTER] so. [Elizabeth:] That was too... too that, [speaker004:] That's the kind of stories there is about her neighbours. [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] Aha. That was er Yes, two and they were called Ogilvey, and one was... A e Alec and the other one was Will.... And it was Alec that was driving and Will [LAUGHTER] Will, he said mind where your about Alec, you'll er you'll soon be in a ditch but good's sake he said it's not me [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] So they were both [speaker004:] about the other on be the pony, that took him to the wrong house. [Elizabeth:] Oh aye that's another lad he was on his road home the pony used to After a a drink in Kilray In Kerry the the ponies nearly took the men home. But this lad make a mistake and he come down to the my sisters house,... and my sister and her husband took him in and he'd fallen and cut his brow,... and after he was kind of sobered up he turned down and he said... Not a story about this now James. [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] And that was to the horse? [Elizabeth:] No it was to my brother in law. [speaker004:] What did he s What did he say to the to the pony? [Elizabeth:] Ay No no. He that for he said he was that thankful that they had looked after him and that's how she leaned down and said not a story about this now James. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Very good. [Elizabeth:] So. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Were there any stories about misers? [Elizabeth:] No I don't think so.... er I think there was something like that.... [speaker002:] You know in older times about folk having stored up lots and lots lots of money? [Elizabeth:] Aye well this man that I ke know he had quite a lot of money and he just gave a six pence to the kirk, and he had always plenty of money when he died. But to make up for what he didn't pay he left a hundred pound to the kirk. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Is that so? [Elizabeth:] Aye that's so, that's a s a long ago story. Mhm.... [speaker002:] Aye.... [Elizabeth:] [cough]... [speaker002:] You you mentioned there about the old market. [Elizabeth:] We'd a curtain market. Yes. Aha. That was long afore my day but th they used to always come to curtain market, aha. It was a great day that day they came from Lintrethen and Kilray and the Blackwater and all met there with their and their or whatever they were to sell, a horse the day of the curtain market. Mhm. First heard father speak about that. [speaker002:] There were a lot of horses? [Elizabeth:] Yes er they days oh yes everybody had that.... And I've I've known I've heard of the Glen Islan m men would walk out the hill to the market of Braemar, the Castletown market they used to say, likely going there for sheep or something, I don't know that was beyond my stories. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And what way would they take? [Elizabeth:] They would go out Glen Baily and past loch and then right over into Glen Shee and that up over the Devils Elbow then. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] It was a goodly walk.... That walk that I've one That I've walked it twice, gone right out Glen Baily and right into Glen Shee and down Blackwater, down to the and come along and round in, thirteen mile Maybe twelve or thirteen miles.... [speaker002:] And did any of the the Glen Shee folk come to Glen Ayloch [Elizabeth:] Oh yes, oh there was there was no dance unless the Glen Shee folk come [LAUGHTER] along to it []. Oh yes there was great coming and goings between Glen Shee and Glen Ayloch yes. A lot of them. They came to help each other especially at the clipping time, the time of the clipping the sheep.... Whether they came to claim their own or not I'm not very [LAUGHTER] sure sometimes []. [LAUGHTER] Mhm. [speaker002:] Tell me about some of the old dances. [Elizabeth:] The dances, oh they were just great fun the dances. All met in the [cough] we met the school. It was the nearest to us and the next one was the Glen Ayloch school. But oh we we'd we'd a lot of good fiddlers in those days and a girl at the piano.... And then when things got a wee bitty better we used to have the Camerons up from Kilray from Kerry to dance to the Play at the dances. And of course the night of the Gathering Ball it was just packed tight with people, hardly the school would hardly hold them all. And then they put up a big tent in the... Beside the school where you went out for your supper... er it was that. S s [speaker002:] And how many folk might be at the the dances? [Elizabeth:] Oh there was more than a hundred near two hundred folks would turn up. A lot of them that came to the g to the gathering To the sports they would stay over just for the sake of getting the dance. [speaker002:] And where was that? [Elizabeth:] That was the tw always the first The second Friday of August. It was the Friday after the twelfth was always the gatheri Glen Ayloch gathering and is yet, and is going on for a hundred and s something year a hundred and What did I we say a hundred and twenty years since it was started I think.... [speaker002:] And what about for recreation what did the people do er You know away back before before the great war? [Elizabeth:] Oh For recreation, oh they made just er as I said, They did er throwing the pudding stone and they di the And the caber and if the p hammer, and er a lot of them used to play quoits. They played that and then in the in the and in the evening there was a great lot of er dambor playing if you ken what that is? Draughts you know, but always father spoke about his [LAUGHTER] And er they did that and then there was oh great ones for meeting in their own houses to to fiddle. They were great fiddlers of long ago it's not so long ago that I mind there was five fiddlers in our kitchen in Dalvaine, just each coming with a just to have a night at the fiddle. [speaker002:] Who who were the the great fiddlers? [Elizabeth:] Oh there was the Stewarts especially. The Stewarts were always and Charlie Stewarts the last of the f Stewarts but they were all great fiddlers there was the Stewarts and er my brother was a fiddler my father, and then Duncans and their pipes. There was a ma two boys played the pipes and er and the Thompsons were pipers, the [speaker002:] Did [Elizabeth:] father and the son were pipers too. [speaker002:] Did the fiddlers have any local tunes? [Elizabeth:] Oh I couldn't say for that. [speaker002:] You cannae mind some of the names? [Elizabeth:] No no no no.... There's only one tune that I know and that was made in honour of my brother. He was about thirty years as as erm secretary of the Glen Ayloch gathering and somebody made up a pipe tune and called it Graham's Tune. So that's the [LAUGHTER] only one I know []. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] That's just recently, mhm.... Oh there was Duncans and there was Robbies and there was Stewarts and MacKintoshes and Thompsons, all musical people, of long ago.... Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with that. The only thing I was blessed with was the music in my feet. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] For I was very keen on dancing. [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And what were the the dances? [Elizabeth:] Oh we danced all the dances you can think of long ago like Browns Reel, the Lancers and the Quadrilles and Jackie Tar, Rory More, Pluars Edinburgh and er Oh I think we've near named them all up and down. [speaker002:] Did you ever dance the Patronella? [Elizabeth:] Patronella was one of the favourite ones, aha. You had to do that.... And Patronella and Rory More and er Pluars Edinburgh and Jackie Tar and er Quadrilles, Lancers and Browns Reel especially. Eightsome Reel,... and all the And then a waltz and one of those kind of things. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] And a One Step, was another one. [LAUGHTER]... Before I got my feet off I mean the doctor once said to me, What did you do when you were young? I said, I worked hard all day and I danced all night. [LAUGHTER] You Well he said, Well it's done you a lot of good now then because your knees are still good. They're still right enough. I I saw Mrs granddad that she's got a new bike and I said I wish I could go that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Now going back to the maybe [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] what your grandparents mentioned to you, [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] did you ever hear anything about this business of them distilling whisky? [Elizabeth:] Oh yes they we were great Our folk were great distillers of whisky. My people, which is not a nice thing to say but it's true. It was an extra for them to do. And my grandfather and my great grandfather, they were millers you see? So they had every ch opportunity of d distilling the whisky.... I don't know how it was done but they ha they apparently they did plenty of it,. My father, unfortunately, he came on one of their little barrels out the glen but it was empty. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aye. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. It had been they had put it out to the what they call peat moss. And put it in er er in the moss, you see it would mistur it would mature. I think it would make about two gallons of whisky, I think he said, the little barrel. And he thought he'd landed but it was empty, it had likely somebody had got it before him. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That wasn't what you called the a pig? [Elizabeth:] No. [speaker002:] No. [Elizabeth:] No. [speaker002:] Was there a name for these whisky barrels? [Elizabeth:] N don't know that I know just the whisky barrels they were, a little I believe there was maybe a name for them. [speaker002:] There used to be a great line of business up the folder part. [Elizabeth:] Yes, up that yes. [speaker002:] Did you ever hear them talk about them smuggling the whisky through the glen? [Elizabeth:] Yes, they did that so my That old great grandfathers of mine they went fr from here to Arbroath with theirs over the hill. [speaker002:] Is that so? [Elizabeth:] Three or four of them, aha, with their ponies they would leave in the night and go over the hill. I've a bigger story about the end of our stories. A er and er it was kept secret for many a year, but er the just when they were, there the excise men came upon them,... and this old ancestor of mine he was a big lad, over six foot, and he was quite sure that the man wasn't going to take his whisky. So he fought with him and and took his stick from him and gave him a whack on the head and he dropped, and the story goes he says we'll go home now lads. So they made home but whether he killed the man or not we never knew. [LAUGHTER] Mhm. So that was the last And I don't think if he went back after that I think it had kind of frightened him, least so my father used to tell the story. [speaker002:] He took the gaugers stick? [Elizabeth:] Aye, and we have it yet, it's in the family. [speaker002:] What's it like? [Elizabeth:] Oh it's just a beautiful thing, really. It's er it's like made of blackthorn and the upper part of it's all little knobbly and a head like a a head turned in like a h... like the head of an a of a bird. And the door pit is about eighteen inches of steel and that was for them to puncture the thing, to puncture their whisky, little barrels you see. But old Sandy we was sure he wouldn't puncture his. [speaker002:] Aye, well that's fascinating. [Elizabeth:] Aye. And oh it was fascinating, yes. And that was hid for many many years it had generations. And I came across it in my young day when I had no business, but I begged it out them. That was why it was ever brought to light so it's gone down to the next generation. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did you ever hear the way they took the whisky to Arbroath? [Elizabeth:] They took it on their on their They went with their ponies in their little barrels you see, and they went on horseback over it. [speaker002:] Wh what way did they go? [Elizabeth:] Oh they we I do Just Well I don't know they w just idea over the hills by the map, I don't know how they went. [speaker002:] But did they have their routes? [Elizabeth:] Oh they had their routes yes. And they had to have their secret routes, you see the excise men would be looking for them. It'd be some like times [tape change] Oh I think I've told you about all that I can about the glen. [speaker002:] Oh no I'm not going to ask you so much about the glen, more [Elizabeth:] No. [speaker002:] about the the house this time. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] the the fireplace, can you [Elizabeth:] Oh th the fireplace. [speaker002:] ah can you mind some of the old names for some of the things? [Elizabeth:] Oh what all things well yes there is the You know there was the the the poker, there's the poker and the and this and the [speaker004:] Tongs. [Elizabeth:] and the tongs and the and the shovel [speaker004:] And the. [Elizabeth:] Aha, yes. [speaker004:] And the. [Elizabeth:] And then there was the the sway And the and the the and the chain and and the and the cleak for the kettle. [speaker002:] Were were there nooks on either side of the fireside? Wee nooks that you could put things in? [Elizabeth:] Oh aye th Yes the older kind has, yes. In fact th the older kind I that I mind of there was places you could even sit in the nook. [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] There was a se er a little seat situated in the great long ribs there was across, and then there was the side that. [speaker002:] Mhm, now what was that called? [Elizabeth:] That was the n the nook. [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] You sat in er the s the side. And you could easy sit in there and in this big place that I speak about there was two sways [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] in each side like that. [speaker002:] Did you hear the word jam stones ever? [Elizabeth:] That was well that was the jam stones we sat on. [speaker002:] Was it? Aha. Some people call it the nook but you just sat on the jam stones. Yes on the front. And what was an inglenook? [Elizabeth:] An inglenook, Oh I think it had been a place a sort of built off the fireplace. I think. I ne I don't know I never was in a place where there was one like that. [speaker002:] You you mentioned the er sow's cray [Elizabeth:] Aye the sow's cray aye the pigsty. [speaker002:] That's Or the pig's hutch. [Elizabeth:] Aye, that's right, the pigsty. Aye. Sow cray we called it C R A Y [LAUGHTER] a cray. [speaker002:] Wh what did you call an outside toilet? [Elizabeth:] Oh that was just always called the little house. [LAUGHTER] Mhm. [speaker002:] You never heard offie? [Elizabeth:] Oh I think we did, yes. I think we did speak about that, the offie but mostly it was just the little house, outside Mhm. [speaker002:] How about carseckies? [speaker004:] Oh aye I've heard that [Elizabeth:] Er [speaker004:] and [Elizabeth:] yes. [speaker004:] the grazer jacket. [Elizabeth:] That's right, aha. [speaker004:] The old men wore that. [Elizabeth:] That's right. [speaker004:] Just like a blazer. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker004:] But a carseckie it was made like [Elizabeth:] Aha. [speaker004:] you know like you get jeans nowadays. [Elizabeth:] Er the very same aye. [speaker004:] That was a carseckie [Elizabeth:] A carseckie [speaker004:] My grandfather wore that. [Elizabeth:] That's right. [speaker004:] That's where I heard the word. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Carseckie... [speaker002:] Any of these old words now that you can think of? [Elizabeth:] Oh I could think about an awful lot of them I think. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] Mhm. I may use them on Mrs occasionally. [LAUGHTER] a lot of them. [speaker002:] Say for the you know the the implements on the farm that they have [Elizabeth:] Aha. Oh yes there was Oh yeah, there was all the implements for that there was the the grubber and there was the plough and there was the harress and there was the Scarefair and er... wh wh whatever you call the the... the driller, there there was the driller for the for this turnips or the neeps. [speaker002:] What did you call the the knife for shortening the neeps? [Elizabeth:] neeps was the.... [speaker004:] Tabner [Elizabeth:] The tabner [speaker004:] And that went in very quick on the end for you shoved it into the neep [Elizabeth:] Aha. [speaker004:] picked [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] it up. [Elizabeth:] The tabner you put in that the tabner the thing went in the neeps and then you cut that [speaker004:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] way you see, the tabner and the yeuk [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker002:] What was the yeuk [Elizabeth:] The yeuk was the Well just as you would say er Just a hook but we called it the yeuk Y E U K. [speaker002:] And that was used for? [Elizabeth:] The yeuk aha, the tabner was thing like this and you dig that into the neep, like this and then the you did that to take the shyes off [speaker002:] I see. [Elizabeth:] Ah er the yeuk. [speaker002:] So your tabner was used for? [Elizabeth:] Yes, for lifting the neep up. It was thing with two prongs and you tap it in like that and it lifted the neeps, then you did that with the yeuk [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] It was a hard days work when you went up and down a drill like that, lift the neep and yeuk lift the neep and yeuk and hope you get [speaker004:] I never ever did it myself like. [Elizabeth:] Aye you did that,ye d That was why you did And you did your neeps. They had to be done like that and yeuk and then throw the neep in there and then the next day so that when the [speaker004:] Laying the neeps is that what they called it? Laying the neeps? [Elizabeth:] Er no when you laid the neeps that was yeuking the neeps. [speaker004:] I see. [Elizabeth:] H yeuking the neeps. [speaker004:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] They did that with the neeps so that when the man came along with a cart they could throw them, you see. You had to lay them this way and that way [speaker002:] What did you call thinning the neeps? [Elizabeth:] Thinning the neeps was clatting the neeps, you see? [speaker004:] Jim do that? [Elizabeth:] Yes aha. [speaker002:] Clatting the neeps? [Elizabeth:] Clatting the neeps and in Aberdeen they called them yowing [LAUGHTER] And y We had your clatt as the yow they called it the hoe, the yow They cleared the Did that to the drill. Cleared down like that, you know, this side and that, and then you shoved a And you did a f did a d Leave one. It was an art er if you look Aye, all the time you cleared it down with this, you see? On either side, and then you just looked and shoved that out and then on you went. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Was that thinning? [Elizabeth:] That was thinning the neeps. [speaker004:] Thinning the neeps. [Elizabeth:] Aye. Yowing them. [speaker004:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] How about the hay, was it called anything? [Elizabeth:] The hay rick well it was That was what I speak about a a a cole Tramp cole where the hay r Hay was the tramp cole. We had the little coles that when you just When the hay wasn't just Was just as dry as you'd want it, they put it into hay coles Little coles just little things about four feet that And then you'd put them into the tramp coles and that was where you tramped it. That's where they were well named tramp coles I've tramped them for my er, round and round on them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Were the were the coles er would you talk about them being theekit [Elizabeth:] Aye that was theekit aha. Had to cut the rashes or the sprots and theekit them that way. [speaker004:] Is that what you did up at the top of the [Elizabeth:] Yes. Aha. You theekit them that way. [speaker004:] Theekit? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker004:] And that's then when you put on the dollies on the top [Elizabeth:] That was the time when you did the fancy things on the top, aye. [speaker004:] Aye. [speaker002:] Now did everyone in the glen theek the [Elizabeth:] Oh everybody Theekit their [speaker002:] the coles the same way though? [Elizabeth:] Oh I think so. Mostly all the same after the same style, mhm. They didn't theek the hay stacks though, well... Yes when er There was the tramp coles and then they broke them into what they called the big hay stacks but they were great big round great big [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] big round things and [speaker004:] And then what was a stray soo [Elizabeth:] A stray soo was a kind of er like a house. [speaker004:] Aye and it had a roof on it like a house shaped like a house. [Elizabeth:] Er just like aye yes, that was a hay soo aha. [speaker004:] Stray soo. [speaker002:] What type of roof was that then? [Elizabeth:] Well it was er [speaker004:] Well just like a hut. [Elizabeth:] it was f just like a house, with like a roof. [speaker002:] What what was it made with? [Elizabeth:] It was made with the s with er bales of hay. [speaker002:] Is that so? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. You could make a hay soo now with a with square bales of hay. They cannae do it now with the rolled bays Great rolled bales of hay they have now. [speaker002:] And going on to the corn, the er... time when it was ripe, was there a test that the farmer would use to see that his corn was ripe for cutting? [Elizabeth:] Oh he he knew that fine. Went round and put his hand in to see if it was dry. In fact if it was dry down to the band they would near take it in by that time, you with the bands round the middle? Aha. But oh they could rustle it and they'd they just knew by the just did this with it you know they would know. [speaker002:] Didn't they taste it? [Elizabeth:] Oh near about it aha. Didn't you They just knew, [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] mhm.... [speaker002:] Now wasn't it supposed to be unlucky to be the last in cutting your corn? [Elizabeth:] Oh there were never no word about that, no. [speaker002:] Now can you t tell me about how it was bound into sheaves? [Elizabeth:] Oh fine, it was just all You got this It was an art in making the band. You got the band and you put them like that, and you twisted it round, did that and then it was a long band you see. [speaker002:] Now what was the band made of? [Elizabeth:] It was the corn, you see? You just took two big handfuls of corn. And they were awful thick. And you did that with them and then laid it down, you see, and then you gathered your sheaf and put it on that and turned it round and gave it a twist like that and then And that was how it was done. Tossed [speaker002:] Now [Elizabeth:] the sheaf to the side. [speaker002:] Was that done on the the same day as the corn was cut? [Elizabeth:] Oh just as soon as it was cut. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Just as soon as it was cut you In fact you'd to go er ev everybody, in that day, you'd maybe have maybe thirty yards and you'd all those l sheaves y that was your bit. And you did that and then you had to wait until the the machine came round again and that was you again, you'd a whole day at that. [speaker002:] Who usually did the the band? [Elizabeth:] Well you could do your own bands, but you were awful lucky if there was only the bairns about, and they did your band for you. If you made it and laid down them the the man that was doing it, he'd only to lift that and give it a twine and on to the next. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And what size was your sheaf? [Elizabeth:] Oh just a good arm full, a good arm full of a sheaf you would have to put down. The man that was on the mower, they had an eye to that they would just wait until it was off the the Where it was cut you see? He sat on the cutting machine and and then as it come on to the... Ah but what do you call the long thing? E he just pushed it off with a long thing like that and and on they went and did it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] See? [speaker004:] Well what does a binder do then? [Elizabeth:] Oh the binder did that itself. [speaker004:] Aye wa the binder twines string? [Elizabeth:] The binder Yes the binder could do that itself [speaker004:] And then through off the sheaves [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker004:] tied up with this string aye. You see [Elizabeth:] Mhm. Now the binder was a great help you see it was on a a a Had the cutting and then it went on to the platform and the it went up [speaker004:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] and then it came down and then er [speaker004:] All tied up. [Elizabeth:] the Well the the cutter slid down the cutter came out and did that with it. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] The binder twine was in this thing you see and it went [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] over and then it tied it and then it was cu, then it fell down. [speaker004:] And then you wouldn't have to go round the fields doing the sheaves? [Elizabeth:] Oh no no. Aye if it Well sometimes if the binder wasn't cutting it [speaker004:] Aye. [Elizabeth:] properly you've to go [LAUGHTER] down [] round and see about it. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Now you know at the top of the rick? [Elizabeth:] Aha. [speaker002:] Were the sheaves bent over? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker002:] Can you tell me about that?... [Elizabeth:] Oh but er they were they were built round and round and as you come up what they called the eaves of the sheaf the [speaker002:] This is just the wee ones? [Elizabeth:] So. and yes [speaker002:] The wee wee stooks? [Elizabeth:] Er the stooks was Aha. [speaker002:] Aye that was it. It's more the stooks I'm meaning, you know with the [Elizabeth:] Oh yes you had er the the stooks you had I think ten in a stook You had five five sheaves at each side you put them like that, five you [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] see and that was your stook. That was like ten sheaves. [speaker002:] And was there one came over from the top? [Elizabeth:] No, no no, [speaker002:] No no. [Elizabeth:] no no. Just just a And you'd to set them right We had to set them that they've stayed like that. [speaker002:] Now how did you do that? [Elizabeth:] Well you just got into the way you lifted them and you just look my elbows are. [speaker004:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] You just lifted them you and you just set them like that. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] Was that to let the wind blow through to [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker004:] dry them or something? [Elizabeth:] And then you just got another pair and you put another pair like that until you had five. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] That was like tying stooks. Ten sheaves in a stook. [speaker002:] How long would you leave your stooks in the field? [Elizabeth:] Oh just until they were dry maybe if it was a grand time of wind, maybe say three days. And if it wasn't, My goodness it was a job when it come wet weather and it maybe be lying flat and it all had to be set up, and we had stooks for days. [speaker002:] You didn't weight them in any way? [Elizabeth:] No. [speaker002:] No no [Elizabeth:] No. [speaker002:] that's more the bigger stacks. [Elizabeth:] Aye aha. [speaker002:] But What I was going to ask was, before they were made into a stack, were your stooks made into larger stooks? [Elizabeth:] No, no no, the stooks were just stooks all the time? [speaker002:] And then made into a stack? [Elizabeth:] Yes and then they've were forked up in the carts, what the bogeys are nowadays, and then they would have made stacks and stack yet. [speaker002:] But with they the hay coles that was? [Elizabeth:] Oh the hay coles were different, they were different altogether... altogether. [speaker002:] Tell me about that again cos that was interesting. [Elizabeth:] Well when the hay was dry,th it was raked up it was all er When it was cut it was lying in what we called swathes, you see? And then maybe after it'd been cut for two days, you were sent out to turn the swathes, up all you went along and you turned them and turned them. And maybe next day you would have to turn them again t to dry. And then they were raked into Well we just er If they were dry they were raked into big swathes, to be near where you could build the tramp coles [cough] But if they weren't you would put them into little coles and the and then they were the little coles was put up t t together to make a bigger one. [speaker002:] And how did they they do that? [Elizabeth:] Well they just er they just forked them they they brought up the side what I said the boss, you see. I don't know what you call the boss to be right drag point for [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Any way that was it and you st and you f forked them all round and you after it was er up you was put up to do the tramping round and round and you Every forkful you took it and saw that it was laid down and tramped it round like this, round and round and round and then the next one, till it was up. [speaker002:] Now, why did you tramp them? [Elizabeth:] Well to keep it firm. Because [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] if you didn't the wind would soon blow them down. Sometimes it [LAUGHTER] blew them down anyway []. But if they was good hay and that and you tramped them down they stayed for ages. [speaker004:] Did they not Did you not tie rope over them or something? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker004:] And a brick on the end of it. [Elizabeth:] Sometimes a bit stone, aye. [speaker004:] seen you do that. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And did you theek our tramp cole? [Elizabeth:] Yes. And then they would er they would The tramp coles then you would er put this rope up over that side, and then you'd put one over that side, you see, and that was that would be safe for a long time. And after the harvester they would take in those big tramp coles and bring them into the big hay stack. [speaker002:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] This great big round thing, the head of the er You've seen pictures of them. Great round things like that, and up and up. [speaker002:] And how was it built? [Elizabeth:] Just the same. It was built er It has to be It had to be very well built and firm, because then, when it was used for the cow for the er sheep, usually, that best hay was left for the sheep. You got what they called a h hay knife. A a great big thing about that length maybe and you cut the hay... in great swa After that and then you see you carried it out to the sheep. It was a great art i in having a good hay stack, for the time of the winter time for the sheep. [speaker002:] Now under the lowest layer of the sheaves were there any stones or branches or briars ever laid underneath? [Elizabeth:] Yes they were, yes, under that. [speaker002:] Now what was that for? [Elizabeth:] That was to keep it aired. That was to keep it aired you see? Grand place for rats too. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh aye. To keep them off the ground? [Elizabeth:] Aye. But that didn't keep the rats off the the The rats went in supposing but er that was to keep the stacks aired. [speaker002:] And the stacks weren't built around a central pole? [speaker004:] That's the boss she's speaking about. [Elizabeth:] No the bo [speaker002:] No. [Elizabeth:] no no, not a central pole, no it was just always a boss. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] A big boss, aha. [speaker002:] And [Elizabeth:] Well in our district, why I suppose other folk had different ways but I just speak about our lot, aha. [speaker002:] There wasn't any s customs about the stack, that if you went round it er sunwise it would cure your teethache? [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] No I never heard that stories no.... [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mm. Well that's very good. Did you ever hear the word stip Being used for a pole that was placed against a corn stack to keep it from... [Elizabeth:] Of course er [speaker002:] couping? [Elizabeth:] Er Oh that was er... We called the things that supported the We called them lairgs. Lairgs long bits you know,t We had them We had maybe four at a stack, to keep steady for all winter. [speaker002:] Mhm. How how er long were the lairgs [Elizabeth:] Oh they would be ten feet long anyway [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] long poles they were, they would be about that. [speaker002:] Was this local wood? [Elizabeth:] Er yes, we just Oh they were well looked after the the er lairgs Some of them called them staits [speaker002:] Staits? [Elizabeth:] staits instead of lairgs [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aha. Very good. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] That was was something to stay them you see? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] stay them s firm. [speaker002:] Aye, well there's a lot of old words there. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] I told you that. Aha. [speaker002:] Aye. And did you ever use the expression, on a different subject, er a burn sticks? A bundle of sticks? [Elizabeth:] Aye, no. Aha. Oh I my mother called that now... [LAUGHTER] what would you call a bundle of sticks? [speaker004:] Just a bundle of sticks. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] Aye but there was a way for carrying that. [speaker004:] Oh no. [Elizabeth:] Mm. [speaker002:] Was that done on the back? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. What would you call that again? Mother had Granny had it anyway. Then it was burden, but that wasn't the right word either. [speaker002:] That might come back. [Elizabeth:] Aye come back.... I'll mind it sometime, mind when your away maybe. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Were there any words to do with eggs? [Elizabeth:] My m... my memories not nearly so good as it was. [LAUGHTER] Mrs Mrs says it not bad for my age but there's lots of things I forget. If I mean to mind a thing I never mind it [speaker004:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] and then it'll come back just like that. [speaker004:] On the tip of her tongue quite often. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] Aha. So. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] But your your mother had a lot of the old words? [Elizabeth:] Er she had but not so much as father. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] But father had a lot of Gaelic words. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Mother had a lot of good words too, I must say, but er it was him we learnt a lot of wor And granny especially you learned a lot of words of hers. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] What did you Did you have a word for grease? Creesh [Elizabeth:] Creesh? No it was just grease, no. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] We didn't use it often but I know what you mean. [speaker002:] Or cheese? [Elizabeth:] Mhm. Cheese was a kebick [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What was a sneck? [Elizabeth:] A sneck was a snib in the door. [speaker002:] A snib [Elizabeth:] A snib aha. A sneck was a It was a lo Just a line of er a a piece [speaker004:] You've got one on your gate at Dalvaine. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Sneck. [speaker002:] Was it You lifted? [Elizabeth:] Yes. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] You lift it with Had a a thing like that and a knob like this. And it lifted up, and then fell down, you see. [speaker002:] Now a pinafore what was the word? [Elizabeth:] A pinafore, an apron, a pinny. [speaker002:] You never used Daidle [Elizabeth:] A daidle My grannie used a [speaker004:] Aye. [Elizabeth:] daidle that was an apron, was a daidle [speaker004:] Watch your daidle. [Elizabeth:] That's right. [speaker004:] Daidley. [Elizabeth:] Mhm. [speaker002:] How about an ashet [Elizabeth:] An ashet was just an a flat plate. [speaker004:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Oval shaped [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] was an ashet. [speaker004:] What you get a a navvies steak on, you [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] know [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] navvies steak. [Elizabeth:] Aye, mhm. [speaker002:] A chuchet [Elizabeth:] A chuchet Oh that was er a peesy Chuchet storm was a peesy [speaker004:] Aye. [speaker002:] What was that name? [Elizabeth:] A chuchet storm was the time we were just in from April when the peesies were laying and there'd just a come a flurry of snow. [speaker004:] Just like what we had the day. [Elizabeth:] Aha. Like that, maybe a bitty worse, but anyway that was the chuchet storm [speaker004:] Chuchet storm. [Elizabeth:] And that was always about the fourteenth of April. [LAUGHTER] Er today about the sa So if you see one you'll be saying this is the chuchet storm. [speaker002:] How about if it was smirring [Elizabeth:] A smir [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] Oh just a smir of rain was just a kind of hardly a drizzle. Just a drizzle. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Elizabeth:] If you was biking home, you would just get a smir of rain on your faces that's just a smir of rain. [speaker004:] Like a harr [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] If somebody was bowsey for bandy legs? [Elizabeth:] Aye he was bowsey [speaker002:] Bowsey? [Elizabeth:] Aye bowsey. [speaker004:] Bowsey. [Elizabeth:] He was a bowsey aha. [speaker002:] Or crooked? [Elizabeth:] Crooked? [speaker002:] Aha. [Elizabeth:] Oh well, a crooked things always a crook A crooked thing er [speaker004:] aye. [Elizabeth:] Harry had a crooked stick. [speaker002:] Aye. [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Just like that other guy. [Elizabeth:] I hope get on better with your Glen Ess women than me. [speaker002:] Oh no no y your you [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] your dam dam boards [tape change]

[speaker001:] Tape number one Hugh final year student School of Scottish Studies. Taping Hugh my father on shipyard riveting practices. Fifteenth of November nineteen ninety. [Hugh:] Is that picking up? [speaker003:] Aye. It's picking up. But he says it's got this wee arrow here's got to be in the middle of this dial, you know. So er well If you want to tell me, if I was starting as a riveter boy, right, if I was wanting to start as a riveter boy, what would I do? Would I go to the yard or would somebody speak for me? [Hugh:] Well on a lot of occasions people were spoken for. [speaker003:] Aye. [Hugh:] Er by their fathers and uncles and brothers that [speaker003:] Right. [Hugh:] who had already served their time er [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] in a yard. Er as far as I can remember... er you would start as an apprentice riveter, and you would do sort of odd jobs within a s a squad, rivet [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] squad. Er maybe heating rivets or putting in rivets, until such times as er you were deemed fit to become a member in apprentice squad. And again apprentice squads done er lesser jobs than the the journeymen such as er riveting casings, etcetera, that were not on watertight and er filling in the odd er seams here and there that er were left out while a riveter was progressing with his job. And erm... that would carry on until such times as when the foreman or whoever would deem them fit to be a squad that could carry out er a heavier job if you want put it that way, where they would progress on to heavier plates etcetera, and do watertight work. [speaker003:] But would a a erm apprentice squad... Was it known, or was it common, or was it known at all, for an apprentice squad to start off as apprentices like you start off in maybe four or five years become apprentice squad and work as a squad and do light jobs that you're talking about, would [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] it be known then for that squad just to go right through the gambit and become a fully fledged riveter's squad and work for their days as a squad? Or would they inevitably break up and go to work with the experienced squads? [Hugh:] Well it would be I suppose it would be possible that that they could start their time together and work right through for years together, but invariably er that didn't happen because... people were picked up and laid off as the boat progressed,... er... and if er Y you may get a a run for the one yard would need, say, six squads of of riveters, in a hurry. And you might get a a man that was er idle say for two or three month and the foreman would pick him up and say well, you know, can you put a squad together for tomorrow morning? [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] And he would then go round picking up his mates and say er you know I need a holder-on, I need a rivet boy, etcetera until such time as he got a squad together, and that squad would start in the morning as a squad. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] But it didn't necessarily mean that they would stay together all the time the they may [LAUGHTER] they may even fall out with one another. Er and one of them may decide that he was going to another job anyway, you know, and he would leave and somebody else would be brought in and what have you. So it didn't necessarily mean that you get a squad of riveters that would stayed together all the time, erm for various reasons, as I say they may have been, unfortunately some of them might even die and therefore you had to make up the squad again [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] So in that sense er very unlikely you would get a an apprentice squad that served their time together and went right on through to retirement age or whatever. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Er invariably you would find up they broke up somewhere or other. [speaker003:] And would an an apprentice, like somebody who'd say served say five years as their time, once their time was out would it be common for them to be kept on? I don't suppose it would be thinking about it now, because they would probably have to join the queue like everybody else, would that be right? Once their time was out they lost their indenture or their indenture [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] would be completed so therefore became one of the market type of thing. [Hugh:] Well unfortunately er it was the practice of shipyards for a long number of years, er to have maybe two or three squads of riveters that were kept in a yard on a sort of permanent basis, but you would invariably find that most of the squads would be sacked when the boat was launched, and taken back on again as they were needed. So again an er because of that squads were never, or very seldom, er kept together throughout their their whole... working life you know [speaker003:] And they were laid off I mean squads were laid off even before the boat was anywhere near finished. They were [Hugh:] Oh aye aye aye. [speaker003:] just laid off when There was keel squads and [Hugh:] That's right. [speaker003:] sail squads and superstructure [Hugh:] There were [speaker003:] squads and [Hugh:] there were there were riveters deemed to be shell men, or riveters deemed to be er superstructure as you say, where they worked on cases etcetera. Ah... most squads were on piece work but you might find that you had If it wasn't an apprentice squad, you might find that you had a squad of riveters who weren't on piece work, who simply went round doing any wee odds and ends that had [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] been missed out here and there or [speaker003:] Aye. [Hugh:] whatever, [speaker003:] Mhm. [Hugh:] within the radius of er... what would you say?... A double bottom, say for instance, you you might get rivets that were missed out. An inspector would go in to inspect the the tank before it was tested and he would back come out and say, you know, there's so many rivets missing in there. Well there'd be a squad of riveters would go in and put them in before a tank was tested. So you invariably find that they weren't on piece work. They were on a make up system sort of thing where... they had a wage but it wasn't the wage that the the piece work squad would have. [speaker003:] Did they di do you think they... I was going to say enjoy there but I do I don't think that'd be the right word, but d did they like or did they prefer to work piece work or was it something that they loathed or I mean there was more money to be made at it wasn't there? [Hugh:] Aha. [speaker003:] But I mean it was a hell of a way to work at the same time. [Hugh:] Well it was a system that er... wasn't liked but it was operated because, in my opinion anyway, because the employers er had seen it as a way of getting more work out of you. Obviously er if er you came in in the morning and you weren't feeling to good, for whatever reason, then [LAUGHTER] you couldn't [] slack back and say och well I'll just take my time with this. You were on piece work you got paid by the rivet sort of thing, so you had to go ahead with it. And therefore [cough] it was a system the the employer encouraged but of course er I don't think you could say that... there were many people who were happy with the system. [speaker003:] Did they see it as working themselves out a job occasionally? [Hugh:] Oh aye aye er there was [LAUGHTER] always that [] in the back of their mind that the the more rivets they put in per day, although it meant more money at the end of the week possibly, er it also meant that the the boat was therefore progressing or the ship was progressing that quick, that they were getting nearer the gate as the the saying went. Er and they were actually bringing on there own unemployment. [speaker003:] So... what would a a riveter have done then once they were once their job was completed they were put on the the on the street basically? Was it easier for them was it easy for them to pick up work or would they have been woul would they have to face a long time on the dole or?... [Hugh:] Well I would say that erm, in my time, er when they became unemployed, most of them could pick up a job pretty easy because I was speaking about from nineteen forty eight onwards, and of course er it was shortly after a war, there was plenty of work, and therefore most of them could pick up a job in a reasonable space of time and they wouldn't be idle too long. But I daresay, if you were speaking to some of the older men in the shipyard er who had worked in a shipyard before my time, that er a lot of riveters, a lot of tradesmen of all all kinds, found it hard to get employment once they were they were sacked you know. In fact er on many occasions they would have to move out of town to get a job. [speaker003:] Yet they had this sort of erm... this sort of feeling about them that they created themselves, that they were sort of cock of the rock, within a shipyard. Was that [Hugh:] Mm. [speaker003:] based [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] purely on the money aspect or something else? [Hugh:] Well it it it was based er basically on the fact that they could earn more money than than most tradesmen in the yard at that particular time er I would say that. They worked hard for any money they got er but basically this was the idea that they could earn more money than say a joiner or a plumber or whatever, and therefore they had a wee bit of pride in themselves. [speaker003:] So did did they think they were doing themselves a disservice then when they, maybe when they amalgamated, or when they became part of the boilermakers, or when the boilermakers started taking in various trades to to approach the employers as a as a a black squad unit for wage rises and conditions and so on, or did they they Would they have preferred to have done it themselves do you think? As riveters? [Hugh:] Well again going back to when I started my time etcetera. Most people negotiated their own wage. Er it wasn't like er... you know the employer would meet you and discuss a wage rise for a whole yard. Most people done their own negotiating. The riveters done theirs, the the joiner done his, the plumber done his what have you. Er... and that was the system and of course the thing was that with the riveters being on piece work, [cough] apart from negotiating a wage, you were negotiating what was known as a price list, and er whereas you would get X amounts of [cough] shillings or pounds for so many hundred rivets, or whatever it was, then the argument would be that that price should be upped because of the the cost of living going up, or whatever you know. [speaker003:] So how did the work out because... as far as I know the the riveter got the cash and then he divvied up the money between [Hugh:] Mm. [speaker003:] the squad. [Hugh:] Well that practice did go on for a long number of years where the the riveter was the was the boss of the squad and on the Friday night, when er where it came knocking off time, he would collect the wages and he would divide that up between the squad which would be, a holder-on, a rivet boy, er maybe a putter-in, er again in my time, that was mostly a squad. Other at other times you would have er hand riveters where you had maybe two riveters and a holder-on, and er a heater as they called, a rivet boy. And again the riveter would be the th the charge of the squad, sort of thing, and he would divvie up the wages at the weekend. [speaker003:] So how did they decide who got what? [Hugh:] Well I couldn't just [LAUGHTER] tell you [] honestly about that but I think the riveters decided who got what, you know. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Er... I never actually had any part in it but I heard tales about er... the rivet boy in particular,... the they would er... they would give him a wage equivalent to what they thought... was was a was a reasonable wage for him, because of the fact that they were on piece work, he had to see that the rivets there on time. Er in the morning he would be in before any of them, sort of thing, getting a fire lit getting the rivets heat up before they come on the job and ah the the quicker he could the the rivets heat up and passed on to the the squad, then okay the more they could put in so, if he were a good rivet boy you could maybe get a good wage, but again that was up to the squad up to the riveter. [speaker003:] So your wages could fluctuate week in week out with not really [Hugh:] Oh aye. [speaker003:] having a great deal of Aha. er balance in t in terms of the amount [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] of the work that you done. It might just be... a good week or a bad week. [Hugh:] And maybe, dare I say it? Maybe if you were a clever rivet boy you [LAUGHTER] you could get more wages []. [speaker003:] Aye aye aye.... And the fact that it was divvied up in the pubs I [Hugh:] Mm. [speaker003:] dare say quite a lot of it must have been spent in pubs as well. [Hugh:] Well, aye. Er they say that's where most of it went on er they would go into the pub and the riveter would tally up the the sheet for the week and say well okay, that's, you know, the holder-on gets so much and the rivet boy gets so much, and the riveter got so much, and what have you. Erm... I don't know if if I'm right in saying, but I think... they may have given a tip to [cough] to other people like er the chore boy, there used to be a chore boy. His job was to go back and forth to the store, from the store to the job, etcetera er up to the bin fill the bag up with chore take the bag up to the rivet boy and er the the chore was used of course was used to heat the rivets. [speaker003:] And was this a would this be a man that would do this or would this just be a boy? [Hugh:] On most occasions it would be a boy but I have seen men doing it. [speaker003:] Mm and did they employ like boys from school? Or or was it did you have to be out of school? [Hugh:] Oh no you Well again er as I say I I'm speaking in in my own time, er and in my time you were left school before you started in the yard at all, aye. [speaker003:] Mm mm.... What sort of tools Did they have tools as such? You know the way a carpenter took various, you know, trade in his tools. I dare say a [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] carpenter's tools are more sophisticated but they had [Hugh:] Aye aye. [speaker003:] tools of a sort. [Hugh:] Well y most squads had their tools, aye. They they had er... they had hamme They had Again y Even in my day you had some hand squads, as they were called, who would have their own er rivet hammers you know, and hand hammers. Well obviously they would look after them and keep them in good order, and what have you, so that there was no hold up with them trying to make a wage or whatever. Er and when it progressed to automatic tools, all these tools were kept in a store at night, and you collected them in the morning when you went back onto the job. Obviously most of them had them marked or had their name on them, so that they would have the same er the same set of tools every day. Now whether it made a lot of difference or no, I couldn't tell you, but they believed it er... the set of tools they had were the best in the yard, you know, so obviously they took a wee bit of pride in them and looked after them. [speaker003:] And... do you think that the move from the hand riveting to the pneumatic tools, do you think that made the job any easier?... [Hugh:] Well I would say Not being a riveter I would think it it did make the job a bit easier for them. Erm but there again, riveting was never easy, so it it maybe took a wee bit of the the hard work out it. But erm [speaker003:] I mean th they looked From the pictures they look fairly heavy like and I've never handled a a riveting machine but I've [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] handled the caulking machines, and they can be If if you're working with them for a length of time, they can get fairly heavy and laborious you know. [Hugh:] Oh aye aye aye. Ah well er riveting machines were a a pretty heavy item to be [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] worked with, aye, and carry about with you. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Er but er... they devised various ways on their own to to help them with these things, you know, they er... I don't know exactly what it was called but you you would see a Maybe a riveter in below the in below the boat er doing the shell, in below the boat, and he would have a Like a hammer, a a an arm that was rigged up for him er to give him an assistance with the the machine, to hold the machine up to You know to let him work with the machine. So they devised a lot of things themselves to to give them a a a helping hand. [speaker003:] And what sort of conditions were you working in at that time in the shipyards? Were they, you know in, general you know not just talking about riveters, but in general for the the work the workforce? I mean in terms of hours of work and tea breaks and whatever it is you had, you know. Time for the toilet and [Hugh:] Well again er... I would say conditions were were terrible as far as I was concerned, er... a as far as tea breaks and what have you were concerned, you didn't have any what we would call official tea breaks, you simply took your chances and made a cup of tea and hid behind a bulkhead or whatever to to drink this, er if you got caught by the foreman or the manager or somebody, then you were more or less bagged on the spot. Er so there was no official tea break. As far as toilets were concerned er [LAUGHTER] the the toilets to me were absolutely diabolical, that nobody should have been asked to use them. But there again er it was the time we lived in and... you had certain Well yards had their own way of trying to keep track of when a guy was in a toilet etcetera and sometimes you would have to hand in y your er your time ticket, to the toilet attendant, and you would give him this ticket and he would say right you are, you know, and mark down your number on a book and say to you, well you've got seven minutes or something you know. So you had to be sharp. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] But in general conditions were pretty bad? [Hugh:] They were. Aye aye. They were. There was no doubt about that. [speaker003:] What kind of hours were you working? I mean you started in forty eight [Hugh:] Er... you're working forty forty five hours aye a forty five hour week. [speaker003:] And did youse get any sort of erm protective clothing or anything that we got when I started in the yards? Oh no [Hugh:] did you no no. Er all the clothing you had was provided by yourself, boiler suits, boots... er there there was no protective clothing at all, there were no protection for your hearing, er... there was no what we called leathers as such for er... to save you from getting burned with scales off of the rivets, with burning machines etcetera, there weren't there was absolutely no er protective clothing at all, unless you happened to be able to buy it yourself somewhere. [speaker003:] And would that be common? Would riveters buy protective clothing for themselves? [Hugh:] Well they would buy... Were a a breed of men, as far as I know, used to wear what they called moleskin trousers. They were er anybody that knows about moleskin, and there very heavy material er and apart from being hard-wearing, I suppose they, in the winter time, they gave them a wee bit of warmth in their legs etcetera. Er and most riveters would try and buy moleskin trousers.... But again th there was no there was no clothes to be bought in the yard or issued in the yard or anything like that you simply bought them in the shops outside. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Er and bought you could afford. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] So the the conditions were really very bad. [speaker003:] Mm mm. Well I think we're running out of tape [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] so we'll need to finish there but thank you very much Hugh. [Hugh:] You're welcome. [speaker003:] That's good. [tape change] Right if we could start again then. How many how many can you remember off hand, riveters that worked as as family riveters? [Hugh:] Er the brothers... the brothers and the as you as you said there, and the.... Then there there was the the,... big Malcky and his father... big Wall Wally,... Many more wait I see... [speaker003:] Big Cassie mentioned a couple at me and I can't remember. [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] What their names are. [Hugh:] the there were the brothers too, Wee Woody and Abel and Jamesie. They all worked about the one squad you know. [speaker003:] And where would the All that the families you mentioned there were they all port families? [Hugh:] They were all port Aye. They were all families aye. [speaker003:] Aye. And was it common for riveting squads to accumulate out of families? [Hugh:] They were mostly made up of their families. Most of the er riveting squads were friends or cousins or all They were all [speaker003:] Aye. [Hugh:] kind of near related most [speaker003:] Aye. [Hugh:] of the riveting squads. [speaker003:] So a boy coming up through a family that was involved in riveters would sort of more or less [Hugh:] Aye. [speaker003:] know that he was going to go into riveting squad? [Hugh:] He would, aye. He would he would go in as a boy, but a rivet boy a heater as we called them. [speaker003:] Would that not cause any animosity... families working together? [Hugh:] No I don't think it [speaker003:] No. I was thinking maybe when the money was getting split up you know? [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] No well it had to be a fair share out. [speaker003:] Aye. [Hugh:] With a riveter Two riveters and a holder-on, and then the boy got so much to the pound. [speaker003:] Aye cos if it was like family you could lay it on to family easier than you could lay it on to somebody No. If it wasn't your family you would need to come up come up with the dosh. [Hugh:] The dosh split out right no. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Every everybody got a fair share. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] After after the boy The boy was paid so much to the pound then the rest was divided three ways by the two riveters and the the holder-on. [speaker003:] Big Cassie was telling me a story about a couple of riveters that worked together, a family, brothers or cousins or something, and er she says that the guy was a riveter, he used to Maybe if the guy was on the inside holding, on the riveter on the outside this I'm sure she said they were brothers, he would shout one of them from outside you know, shout his name and the boy would look through the hole you know, and he's he would spit on him [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] he would spit through the hole []. [Hugh:] see you had to go out and look through the rivet hole to see who was shouting in you know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] There was another famous one, and all, about the and his fingers? [Hugh:] Mm. Aye. And the thing about Fingers was always black now with holding on to the thingummy and then putting in drifts, and hammering, your fingers was get er drift was always on a in a a pan a wee pan with oil in it, drift was always full of oil and you stuck it in the hole. Walloped it in. So sometimes I wallop it in, sometime the the other one would stick his finger through the hole, and the riveter would be [LAUGHTER] dying to be hitting it back he thought it was a drift you know []. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Break your fingers. [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] See the likes of old Cassie talking there about the the She was saying that pe people survived of of that. Who all got a Co book? [Hugh:] Anybody that had money had a book Co book. [Cathie:] People that could afford to... but somebody in the family had a Co book. [speaker003:] So every family had a Co book? [Hugh:] No. [Cathie:] No. [Hugh:] Some of them couldn't afford it. Some of them couldn't afford i You had I think you had to put something in. [Cathie:] I think you had to kind of build up [Hugh:] You mu You had to have so much in the Co [Cathie:] shares to get a Co book. [Hugh:] Before you could er A black book you could get a Co book [speaker003:] Mhm. [Hugh:] what they called a pink book, you'd a pink [Cathie:] Mhm. [Hugh:] booklet. [Cathie:] Mhm. [Hugh:] That they marked up your bought a load of messages, so many [speaker003:] Aye. [Hugh:] two or three pounds worth of messages. And you got a wee cheque. This was written in this pink book, it was full of wee cheques. And that two pound odd was writ into the This book. And that was put in for your dividend. [Cathie:] You accumulated dividend and if your dividend had accumulated to so much you would maybe be allowed a black book. You know, they called this a black book. And you could use that for your own family. [Hugh:] You could lay You didn't have to pay that black book every week. You could leave that to the end of the quarter [Cathie:] You paid it every quarter. [Hugh:] and pay it. [speaker003:] And what sort of stuff did you get off the black book that you couldn't get the other way? [Hugh:] Well you could go into the drapery [Cathie:] Well [Hugh:] department. [Cathie:] You could go to the drapery, the hardware, the grocery, anywhere Gents clothing or anything like that. Get everything practically that you needed... from a black book. [Hugh:] with a black book. [Cathie:] But you had to have it paid every quarter. [Hugh:] Soon as it came to the end of the quarter [Cathie:] You know and if it didn't be paid you at the quarter it meant you di you wouldn't get anything the following quarter. [speaker003:] And how long did you get at the end of the quarter to pay this? [Hugh:] A couple of days. It was usually up on a Tuesday wasn't it? [Cathie:] If the Co was up on the Tuesday you had to have it paid for the Saturday, at least. [Hugh:] On the Monday. A Mond A Monday or a Sa Aye well the Saturday. [Cathie:] You know? [Hugh:] It had to be paid before the Tuesday [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] because that's when they tallied up. All the books was er... audited. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] On the Tuesday the day that the Co was up. And after that your [Cathie:] If you If you paid it The Co was up on the Tuesday, you had to have it paid Most people tried to pay it for the Thursday and that was the turn of the leaf, on the Thursday and if you paid that then you could go straight away that day and get your new quarter stuff, for the next quarter. You got until the Saturday to pay it, but if you paid it then that let you get the turn of the leaf and get more stuff for the next quarter. And most people were desperate to get stuff in them days, you know they didn't want to wait till the following week so they tried to get it paid as best they could [Hugh:] Before the the end of the quarter. [Cathie:] So that they could get it for the turn of the new leaf of the quarter. [Hugh:] That new leaf didn't going into the next quarter and [Cathie:] So [Hugh:] the turn of the leaf didn't go into the next quarter. Although you were still in the same quarter. [speaker003:] Mm mm. [Cathie:] No. But it wasn't everybody that could pay it, it was very hard for some people. If you let somebody else get stuff on your book, and some of them couldn't pay it, you know, you've no means of paying it. [Hugh:] You might pay it yourself.... [Cathie:] Sometimes the people that owned the book had to pay it for them you know. And wait to such times as they could pay it back, [speaker003:] Mhm. [Cathie:] you know. That was why you mostly kept your black book for your own family. [Hugh:] Aye you didn't hand your book in you couldn't hand your book out to anyone, you know. [Cathie:] You didn't want to hand it, but there was people in the port that handed their book out to everybody because that way they got a lot of shares. [Hugh:] They got a lot of dividend. [Cathie:] and accum accumulated all this dividend, and they would have a right good black book you know. [speaker003:] Because a lot of money was going through there [Cathie:] Aye. [Hugh:] Aye. [speaker003:] they would get a good dividend of it. [Cathie:] They got the good dividend. [Hugh:] Mhm. They got so much to the pound. [speaker003:] So they would get When would that be paid out? [Hugh:] It was paid out [Cathie:] Every quarter. [Hugh:] Every well just shortly after the the the end of the quarter maybe the following week. That the They would tell you what dividend they were paying out [Cathie:] Mhm. [Hugh:] ... that for that quarter so the [Cathie:] I rem [Hugh:] following week you could go up to collect your dividend. [Cathie:] Mhm. So er I remember it half a crown to the pound, but it was more before I remember that [Hugh:] I mem I remember three and three and sixpence to the pound [Cathie:] Aha. [Hugh:] I think that was the biggest. Three and sixpence to the pound. [Cathie:] So anybody that had a big book accumulated all this dividend [Hugh:] Maybe three or four hundred pounds worth of stuff out. [Cathie:] But they had to take on the worry of people that couldn't pay them. [speaker003:] And was it common? [Cathie:] Very common everybody in Port Glasgow [Hugh:] Mhm. [Cathie:] used it. [speaker003:] And [Cathie:] Everybody we knew used the Cooperative. [Hugh:] Everything was bought, you bought everything. Th th In them days you hadn't got er what is commonly known now as hire purchase, nowadays, you know, that that mostly started after the war. [speaker003:] That would've been [Hugh:] the only way of Maybe not the only way, but the the easiest way for people to er get debt, if you want to call it that, was er to use this Co book. And of course erm for some people it became a way of living,... and just [Cathie:] For most people it was a way of living. [Hugh:] you you mounted up a certain amount of debt, you tried to get it paid by the end of the quarter. If you were lucky enough to be able to pay it then you had the dividend that came along with that. [Paddy:] Aye that was the people that owned the book. [Hugh:] Er... But it took people busy to get it paid, you know, and in fact there was some people that couldn't, er and it became a big worry to people. [speaker003:] Mm and what would happen if it came to the end of the quarter and you had so much money accumulated to pay on your Co book, for stuff that you'd got over the quarter, and you just couldn't pay it? What would've happened? Or what did happen? [Cathie:] Well the person that owned the book [Paddy:] They would take it off your dividend. [Cathie:] what have to pay that they would probably have dividend and they would pay that for you and you would have to pay them back. [speaker003:] Aye. But what if the person I'm talking about I'm not talking about [Hugh:] If you owned the book. [speaker003:] the person who owned the book. [Cathie:] Mhm. [speaker003:] If the person who owned the book, regardless of who got stuff of the book [Cathie:] Mhm. [speaker003:] beyond that, if they had bought stuff through the Co and accumulated a debt on that book [Hugh:] Aha. [speaker003:] and couldn't clear it at the end of the quarter? [Hugh:] Well they took it off your dividend. [Paddy:] If if if it was like [Cathie:] If you didn't have dividend enough to clear that you would lose your book. [speaker003:] You just So you just [Hugh:] you'd lost your book. [speaker003:] So the debt would go then? You would? [Cathie:] Oh no you would still have to pay that. You're liable. [Hugh:] No no i if it was if it was the likes of a say for instance, and I owned the book, it was my black book, and I ran up a hundred pounds on it. Er and at the end of the quarter I couldn't pay that, then obviously you got no dividend on it because you still owed them that hundred pounds, but they would take the book away so you couldn't get any more. Now that was a big fright to people in them times because if you didn't live within [Cathie:] You were desperate more. [Hugh:] No, most people used it to get their er their er their weekly ration in [Paddy:] But you were living on credit that was like credit to you. [speaker003:] Mm. [Paddy:] This book. You had no money on the Monday morning so you would be in with the book and bought your messages. [Cathie:] You see you got you got [Paddy:] You'd no money you just mark it up in the book. [speaker003:] Mm. [Cathie:] You got your messages week to week, it worked from Thursday to Thursday, right? And you got a Your week's messages every week. But the first week of the quarter you could get messages all that week which you didn't have to pay till the end of the quarter. Every other week after that you paid them at the end every week, [Hugh:] Mhm. [Cathie:] but that first weeks messages you didn't have to pay them till the end of the quarter, which meant that people went in and bought things that week, they never bought you know? [speaker003:] Mm. [Cathie:] Like f er dried fruit, chocolate biscuits, [Hugh:] Aha. [Cathie:] good polish and things that they couldn't really afford. That was a great week because they felt they were getting it for nothing, till it come to the end of the quarter and then they had to pay it. [speaker003:] And [Cathie:] So to get this You had to pay this, because when it came to the end of the quarter, you had to get your shopping out of that Cooperative, so that had to be paid. Otherwise you wouldn't get any more Co er Cooperative messages, so you had to pay that. [speaker003:] Wh what was it common, I mean you were talking there about people would buy things that they never bought before? [Cathie:] Aha. [speaker003:] But was it common for everybody to do that? [Cathie:] Most people did that it was like er [Hugh:] A wee luxury. [Cathie:] A wee luxury a week a of luxury you know. You you di you wouldn't maybe go over the score, but you bought things that [speaker003:] What sort of things would you have bought? [Cathie:] Well I would have bought maybe dried fruit and er extra coal token, you know you bought your coal tokens and your milk tokens, maybe bought an extra coal token and erm maybe went and get a dozen cakes or something like that. [speaker003:] What was the idea what was the idea of coal tokens and milk tokens, why didn't you just buy Why didn't you just pay for the coal and the milk? [Cathie:] It was easier for the man that came round with the Cooperative lorry to just take tokens [speaker003:] So you [Cathie:] and you didn't have to deal with money. [speaker003:] Right. [Cathie:] You see? [Hugh:] The the coal man didn't have to deal with money because I think some of them was dipping into their bags you know. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathie:] Well I don't know about that. [Hugh:] So that's how they they made their coal cheques. [Cathie:] Well anyway it was coal tokens [Hugh:] Coal tokens. [Cathie:] I always remember. It was just easier for the the men that carried the coal. [Paddy:] Aye and of course the likes of milk tokens it Just like now, you know, they would come round the door and leave your milk there in the morning. [speaker003:] Aye. [Paddy:] Well at that time you didn't leave out money so you just left a couple of tokens tokens [Cathie:] And you weren't up. [Paddy:] in the the milk bottle, [Cathie:] Aye. [Paddy:] you know and [Cathie:] They came round that early that [Paddy:] that was that. [Cathie:] the coal tokens was The milk tokens were all right. [Paddy:] Aye and of course the same with the the the coal. [Hugh:] At that time you could you could trust people. [Paddy:] If er if you were going out and you knew the coal man might be round that day so you just left a couple of coal tokens out at the door or whatever. And even left them with a neighbour if they were If your neighbour was going to be in. And as your granddad says, there there was a lot more trust in them days and you could leave things like that at the door, unfortunately you can't do it now. [speaker003:] Was it common then for Did youse have a Did you your family have a Co book? Your mother and father? [Hugh:] Aye they did although it takes me a bit of time to think about it but erm they did have a a er a black book, aye. But like that A lot of families had them and kept them just for the family. [Cathie:] Mhm. [Hugh:] You know, there was a lot of people had them and gave them out to neighbours or... not total strangers, but people that weren't really related to them. Er and they were the kind of people that sometimes found theirself in difficulties, at the end of this quarter, as it's called, because [LAUGHTER] Well it wasn't everybody that could pay it. Er people done it thinking that Och well, I've got three month to get this sorted out, you know, and then unfortunately, by the time the three months was up, they hadn't got it and [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] it was kind of hard for them to pay it and that's were it came in that the people who actually had the black book would lose out on their dividend because their dividend would be used to pay what was owed by other people. [Paddy:] See most people had good intentions, whenever they got a whole lot of stuff from the Cooperative, they would say I'll lay so much by every week and I'll have it at the end of the quarter. But er they would maybe lay it by for two or three weeks and then forget for two or three weeks, and then when it came to the end of the quarter they were a whole lot of weeks behind, you know, they couldn't pay it then. [speaker003:] It was It seems a kind of I mean it seems to have gone on quite a bit that people who had a Co book would allow other people to draw off of that, would go to the shops and buy whatever they needed of the Co book. But at [Cathie:] Mhm. [speaker003:] the same time it seems an awful kind of dangerous way to [Cathie:] Mhm. [speaker003:] to run your book, doesn't it? You know, if if you didn't think you were [Paddy:] Well you see you were trusting people. [speaker003:] Good possibility of not getting it back you know. [Cathie:] Aye right. [Paddy:] You were trusting people to pay it if you had a black book. [Cathie:] You didn't actually let them run up a big bill, you would you would go with them. [speaker003:] Aye. [Cathie:] And maybe somebody would come to your door and say their wee boy or their girl was making their first communion, and they were in dire straights and couldn't buy anything for them, and you would more or less have to give them your book to help them out, but you would go with them so that they didn't go over the score and get just exactly what that wain needed, you know, and just hope that they had enough money to pay you at the end of the quarter, you know. [speaker003:] Would Was there people who would abuse [Cathie:] Oh Aye you had to Some people would have went mad with getting them just the same as you know? [speaker003:] Aye. [Cathie:] You had to watch but if people came to your door in a in a state that er you knew it was a genuine case, you would probably help them out you know. [speaker003:] And did you have to did you have to actually When you went to the shop, say to buy some messages, or to buy whatever erm in the drapery or whatever, [Cathie:] Mm. [speaker003:] did you have to actually present the book, when you went [Paddy:] Oh Aye aye aye. [speaker003:] Could you just [Cathie:] No you couldn't get [speaker003:] could you just [Cathie:] anything without that book. [Hugh:] Without the book. [Paddy:] Oh no no, I mean there was people went and quoted the number. [Cathie:] Oh no they didn't allow that you had to have the book. [Paddy:] Ah but they quoted my number mine. [Cathie:] Aye well that was a one off, you you weren't really supposed to go without a book. [speaker003:] Mm. Then what was what was it happened to you then? [Paddy:] Somebody went in and quoted my number, and was it a suit they got? [Cathie:] I don't know how that happened, really but, erm you weren't really supposed to get anything without. [Paddy:] They're supposed to It's supposed to be written written down in the in the book. [speaker003:] Mm. [Paddy:] Everything that you got out the Cooperative was writ down in this book [Cathie:] Mhm. [Paddy:] in this black book. [Cathie:] I think it always was Mostly always was you know. [speaker003:] Mm. [Cathie:] That must have been a one off. I never heard of that before really. You had to have your book.... [speaker003:] And did some people use it like er... almost like in a like a money lending scheme then? [Cathie:] Aye. [speaker003:] You know. [Cathie:] Mhm. [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] They would allow people that they thought they could trust to accumulate a lot of debt on it. [Cathie:] Aye. Some people had maybe as many as thirty forty people on their book [Hugh:] Aye. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Cathie:] But you had to take all that worry that [Paddy:] But there was [Cathie:] somebody wasn't going to pay you you know. [Paddy:] There was people that actually made money from it, oh they made money. You know if if you had twenty people using your book. Then at the end of the quarter you were getting dividend for twenty people. Now if if you were getting say, in them days maybe two pound a person,... well you were talking about er get quite a wee bit of money every quarter. And therefore that money would mount up. Now maybe the person that ran the book didn't really need to use all that, so at at the end of a a year, say for instance, they'd quite a bit of money lying on that that black book. [Hugh:] Ah if if your getting three and tanner per pound for every pound that was taken out on your book, say four hundred pound, three and tanner to the pound. Quite a bit of money, then it was a lot of money. [speaker003:] Mm mm. [Hugh:] So i if It was up to yourself. You could take the risk and say well okay I'll try it. [speaker003:] So how big was a how big a institution or how important a institution was the Cooperative then, here? [Cathie:] Well everybody in this town [Paddy:] It was the main thing in this town. [Cathie:] bought out the Cooperative, that's for sure aye. [speaker003:] Everybody bought more or less everything they needed. [Hugh:] Mm. Everything. [Cathie:] After the turn of the leaf the next day when the the the new quarter began, every shop was queued from eight 'o clock in the morning. And when you got into that shop there's maybe a counter for drapery and a counter for gents, a counter for ladies, millinery, every different kind of thing. Every counter was queued out the door. [speaker003:] Aye. [Cathie:] Waiting [Paddy:] Mhm. [Cathie:] for things at the the beginning of the quarter. That's how important it was in the port. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Paddy:] See there wee no big shops in this town at that time. You hadn't Woolworths or any of these big shops [Cathie:] No. Cooperative was the shop in the town. [Paddy:] That was the main shop. [Hugh:] You would maybe [speaker003:] How did the smaller shops survive then? The likes of shops that sold groceries. [Paddy:] Ah well that that was only wee corner shops you know. [Cathie:] It was just wee shops, apart from that. Maybe Coopers and the Maypole. [Paddy:] Aye. [Hugh:] Aye. Coopers and the Maypole aye. [Cathie:] And the Buttercup that was the other three shops. [speaker003:] What was the Buttercup? [Paddy:] Mac McSimon McSimons and er John. [Cathie:] It's er just another wee store like er the Maypole and Coopers. [speaker003:] And was that. [Cathie:] Just small grocer, nice wee shops. [Hugh:] Now they they were [LAUGHTER] We probably thought, at that time, that they were er big shops, you know? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Hugh:] Er because they were bigger than say Murrays. Erm [Cathie:] They weren't much bigger than [Hugh:] The next the next biggest shop to the [Paddy:] was another [Hugh:] the Cooperative was McSimons and John. [Cathie:] No, I don't remember them. [speaker003:] Mm. [Paddy:] where is now. [speaker003:] Aye. [Paddy:] That was a great big shop, McSimons. [speaker003:] And did they do any Did they do a trade comparable to the Cooperative? [Paddy:] No no. [Cathie:] No because nobody el else give out tick. [Paddy:] See you get. [Cathie:] You know, it had to be ready cash for all these shops, the probably did their bit when people had money, you know if you had a wee bit extra money. But mostly it was the Cooperative. And everybody in the town was in the Cooperative, you know. Everybody went to the Cooperative Guild, all the women went to the Co Cooperative Guild. [speaker003:] What was the Cooperative Guild? [Cathie:] Well it was just a a guild for women who could take their knitting and have a cup of tea and discuss everything that went on in the Cooperative, you know. You said what was going to happen next quarter somebody who's [Hugh:] Well er [Cathie:] maybe on the committee, you know, two or three on the committee. And you took to do with the things that was happening in the Cooperative. Said your piece and if you thought things weren't right. [speaker003:] So the the Cooperative was basically run for the people. [Cathie:] Aye it was run by the people [Paddy:] Oh aye aye up, aye. [Cathie:] and it had things on for children like elocution classes and [speaker003:] Aye? [Cathie:] Aye. [Hugh:] Highland dancing and stuff like that. [Cathie:] Aye. You went to the Cooperative halls for everything, like that when we were young. [speaker003:] Where would these guild meetings be held then? [Cathie:] Well maybe once a week on a Tuesday night, think it was a Tuesday night. My mother used to go to it. [Hugh:] Aye. [Paddy:] And you would have a a Co board as they called it [Cathie:] Some of these women would be on it. [Paddy:] which was made up of local towns people, you know, and and er I mean you didn't have to be a [LAUGHTER] a notary in the town to be on this er Co board th th You know you could be one of the riveters you were talking about earlier. [Hugh:] Old old Andy [Paddy:] too an interest in it [Hugh:] Old Andy was in Neil Neil father he was on that board. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] And his sister, Andy 's wife.... [tape change]

[Eric:] and Melford my father's er mother's people were the. Melford was where he was in Canada when I was born. And that is over ninety ninety years odd. You see? [Ann:] Mm. So what years was that you were born? [Eric:] Eighteen ninety three.... Aye. [Ann:] And do you have any brothers and sisters? [Eric:] I have one sister still alive. I had er two brothers and four sisters. But they er my two brothers, one died in nineteen forty. The result of well wounds. The other died at the age of What? Oh about ten years ago. Eight He was eighty nine when he died, and er both of them were in the family tradition, journalists. And in fact er one My brother next to n to me I was the middle of them I was the youngest boy. male they call it. His son is a Was former corresponder for in New York for the Guardian. Now he's on the editorial and Billy, my eldest brother he er was he came up in Glasgow er getting the Scottish Express. You see so a branch of the er London paper and at that time he was editor of the paper, they came up together, found it here. But one was on the Daily Mail and the other was on the er Express. And er at one time they were on the evening papers, opposite. They were they never worked on the same paper, they were always on [Ann:] Rival ones. [Eric:] Yes. Ooh. And my sisters... three of them were teachers. And er an interesting thing... had been coming to our house She comes goes to the same church. And she came up on a Wednesday for coffee, after the service. And she'd been coming to our house, Oh about fie or six years, and she said one day to Mary, that's my wife, says you know, Not strange name, there's not many of them about. So I says No, when we had the phone first we were the only one in the telephone directory. And I says er you know when I came back from Rio de Janeiro, she'd been out as a kiddy then. my teacher was a miss. And Mary said Yes, that would be Eric's sister. She was she taught in Pennycook for quite a while, then she went down to Birmingham. The other sister was er in High Wycombe, and the other one was in er Well she was in Creith for a number of years, And then she moved south because she wasn't musical and there was no chance of getting of headmistresship in Scotland if you hadn't got music. So she went down to Spalding and was headmistress of er School in Spalding. Until she Well not until she till she until she retired. She died a couple of years a er three years ago. So er and ten the other one, the one that's alive sh she started off teaching and then went to nurse. She wanted to be a nurse all her life, you see? [Ann:] Mm. [Eric:] She's a nurse. She's retired now, because she's eighty seven. Stays in South er no not south. And of course my father, he was in he had a local paper. [Ann:] Was he editor of the local paper? [Eric:] Well he was editor, you know, in a a small time a small of er about five or six thousand. Everybody has More or less has a paper It's not like the Scotsman or the News, as regards numbers, but then you've got all the local news and you got all the local advertisements. So journalism is one of the family, what if I say traditions? [Ann:] Mm. And where er abouts were you brought up? Girran. [Eric:] In Girran. And was it a big house or? Well it was a reasonable house, you know. One two three three little rooms downstairs. Upstairs there be there was four rooms upstairs. But at that time it wasn't what you'd call modern in so far as you hadn't got hot water... from a sort of gas fir Electric heating.... The bath, you had a bath room with a bath on the wall but you had to heat the water on a at the kitchen the kitchen fire. It were a old fashioned kitchen range where you'd got a an oven on one side and a boiler on the other. The boiler didn't fill automatic, you had you had to fill it with water. You took took a bucket of water out, you put a bucket of water in. That's how you heated that's how you got your bath. Heating the water, well it heated if you'd the fire on it heated the water and then you'd take a couple of buckets out into the bath, plug a couple of buckets in. [Ann:] And then er [Eric:] And there was no no such thing as electricity. Gas... there was a local gas works you see? That made er the gas locally. But I remember quite well when the first incandescent gas mantles came in. You know, what a novelty it was, and the difference in the light between the old single gas lighter and the incandescent lighter. But er some of ther some you had no gas up the On the stair way. The gas The stairs were lightened with a a paraffin lamp. You know [Ann:] gas in the bedrooms, so as the [Eric:] The was gas in the bedrooms, but not on [Ann:] But not on the st [Eric:] not on the stairway. Why? I don't know. [Ann:] Mhm. [Eric:] There was warm gas er in the hall. You know a gas er light in the hall but the less The stairway, you either had to go up by er with a candle in your hand, you see? Or you got well er One two three four, there were four flights of stairs, in the one house. You got a couple of lamps either, well in the one case where there was a small landing, a hanging lamp and the other bigger, you had a table, you had a an ordinary table lamp. Oh yes. And you'd [Ann:] And you'd have the fires, open fires in your rooms. [Eric:] Oh they were all coal fires. There w there were no such thing as gas fires. They were open coal fires. And one Well all the bedrooms had er fire places, you see? So that in the winter time you put on a a coal fire. But there were no no such things as central heating and that. [Ann:] [LAUGHTER] And er where did you start school? [Eric:] Girran. [Ann:] Girran. And what was it like? Was it a [Eric:] It was [Ann:] small school? [Eric:] No it was Girran High School was very good. Very good school, very good... teachers. The headmaster was Morgan J, known as Morgan J or by the boys as Too Long and Too Loose. Why? Because he always had long trousers that went over his boots, and they were you know, very wide so the boys would call him too long and too loose. yes. Ooh there were all all there were With one exception they were all male teachers. The on the exception was the art mistress, she was a er Miss, but er Morgan,...,,,, all good and by you couldn't you know they were disciplinarians, strong disciplinarians, there was another chap. left Girran, went from Girran down to Oxford as professor of Latin. And... he stayed there for the rest of his life. And Morgan J well he was the headmaster when I went to school first and he was there when I left and he retired and he was still here You know going about. There was,, and another chap. There were four headmasters and they From Not from Girran because there was only the one high school, but from er Prestwick, Glenbuck and that, and the used to meet on a Saturday at Turnbelly to play golf. They played golf every Saturday if it was at all possible. [Ann:] And was the belt used a lot? [Eric:] Pardon? [Ann:] Was the belt used a lot? [Eric:] No. Because you didn't get the You know [Ann:] [cough] [Eric:] One one boy might have [LAUGHTER] had the belt, say once in the week or a month, at Girran. Very seldom, there was no need. You know, you might get the belt for making a silly mistake over a sum, or some exercise or that, you see? Or coming in coming late.... But it very The belt was there, now in the classroom the master had a desk and at the side of the desk was the belt. It was always on show, but it was seldom used. You know er very very seldom. [Ann:] And how did you learn to count, can you remember? Did you use the abacus? [Eric:] How did you learn to count? [Ann:] To count, aha. When you went? [Eric:] You started, I forget one, you know they'd put them on the bo It was all board and slates, there were no books, you know, no papers. you had a a slate like you've got on the roof, but it it was bound with a wooden frame. And on the board was a one. And you out that one on your slate. And then two, and you put the two. Then add, you'd put a plus sign, one and equal, two and two plus two equalled four. Like that. And the same when it came to er subtracting, you see, it were all done on the board and you copied it onto your plate On to your slate. And from that you learned. And you had a bit of rage or duster or something, you'd got your slate filled, you'd just wiped it up, and dried it, start again. So that, literally speaking, there were no records of your early... er training in addition, subtraction and that. When you went into the er higher grade, then you got jotters, because you had homework, so you'd homework to do and you'd, therefore, books. So that you could er give your translation [speaks in latin] you see? Or [foreign] all that. You had your Latin, French, if you didn't if you didn't take French you took German. Your maths and your science. And your own jotters. And your homework was handed in... every er so often, you know, you may have homework, English. And essay, write an essay on this, that or the next thing, at the weekend. It went into your jotter, your jotter was handed in on the Monday morning, or the first time you went to the eng the English class and the teacher was his name, he went over that and if you'd missed out a comma, you see or a full stop or anything like that. He corrected them, more or less, marked in up, and you got er four out of ten, five out of ten, ten out of ten. [Ann:] And did you stay at the same school through primary and secondary? [Eric:] Yes. [Ann:] one school. [Eric:] The on the only difference in, were different sizes of the room. You see the primary was in the one side and the high school the secondary was in the other. [Ann:] And were Did the classrooms, how were the classrooms heated then? [Eric:] They were in desks, you had a long desk that took Now some of them they took five on the one the one desk, you see? A long desk and a long seat. No individual desks. And the boys say on the one side and the girls on the other. [Ann:] Mm.... And how were the classrooms heated? Can you remember? [Eric:] Well the classrooms were kept clean because the school finished at er twenty past four and half past four the janitor had the cleaners, you see? Mrs A had somebody Mrs B Mrs C Mrs D. they were always they were swept every day and at the weekends.... One room would be the floors would all be scrubbed and polished, next week the next room. The next room, then come back. Every so often the rooms were scrubbed. [Ann:] When you sat your qualifying exam to go to the high school, er what happened to the people who didn't pass? [Eric:] They were It were divided into to, you could go to a high, or you could carry on at what they call supplementary. If you didn't get the if you didn't pass the class exam you could stay on and try again. that never happened. If you didn't get it you went in to the supplementary. If you got it you could go in to the higher, if you didn't want to go into the higher you leave at er thirteen, you went into the supplementary. It was er just er Well it was between, shall we say, the higher grade and the secondary school.... Continuation of further education on the secondary lines. The only thing in the supplementary you didn't get was languages, but you got the the math, the science and all that, and English. [cough] [Ann:] So did you enjoy school? [Eric:] Yes. It was good. [Ann:] And did you have sport? [Eric:] You had you had no organized sport such as you have today, but you had a football team because there was no need for what you would call sports ground, there was plenty of available open space, park. there was the Stead Park, which practically covered [cough] the whole of our the er town you see? You If you lived in Stead Park, the houses in Stead Park looked straight across the green onto the sea. So that you've got football pitches there, with cricket pitches but if you wanted, if you were a golfer you went across to the golf course. But there wasn't what you'd call an organized sports group. If you wanted to play, class four would play class three, class three play class two, you know? [sniff] [Ann:] But the teachers didn't organize it? [Eric:] No no. [Ann:] You The boys organized it themsel [Eric:] The boys organized it themselves. And as for girls, well er about the only thing they did was skip. You know, skipping ropes. [Ann:] And what did you do with your er spare time as a school boy? [Eric:] I Spare time as a school boy, I used to play either football in the winter or cricket in the summer. When I had spare time, but if you'd If it was decent weather you'd have to give a hand in the garden at home you see? You had to help get the garden Keep the garden tidy, keep the weeds down. It's alright at Although I'd two brothers, on or two would be away from home from home at the s the same time. I was left. So I had to give me father a hand, you know, to keep the garden, and he had plenty to do. So er they'd find you something to do in the garden in your time. [Ann:] Did you find that your father would have odd hours? [Eric:] Well er sometimes he he made of point of always being in the house not later than We'll say nine o'clock, unless there was something special on. You know a meeting of the town council. Well if there was a meeting of the town council it would perhaps start at eight o'clock. Because quite a l a number of members of the council had businesses and you didn't shut at six o'clock, it was seven or eight 'clock before they closed. And if there was a town council meeting it might go on till ten o'clock.... So if the e You know it was only er exceptional cases when he was late. [Ann:] Did the paper er he had out every day? [Eric:] No it was a weekly paper. A weekly paper you see? And er later on when he Well he got that he couldn't carry on with it, you see. It was absorbed and went in to the Carrick Herald and the Aire Advertiser, and now they've all gone. I don't think there's a sort of local paper now.... Course I haven't been down that way for a while. [Ann:] And when you left school what er age were you? [Eric:] I was between fifteen and sixteen. [Ann:] And what did you go What did you do? [Eric:] I had a relation with a chemist business in Motherwell. And er i didn't know him, you know, my Mother He was a cousin of my Mother's you see, and on call now and again. It wasn't like today, you could get in the car and nip down. To get to Girran you've got to go into Glasgow and get a train from Glasgow down to Girran you see? And that was er an express train was two hours journey. So And er I smelt, you know, and I went by a chemical and I thought [sniff] Oh [sniff] oh, grapes, the the odour you see? And that drew me. The aroma that exuded from the chemist shop in those days like er Depends what they'd been using you see? They'd been making er some mixed powder, fenugreek or something like that you see? You get the aroma of it. And er well there were three chemists in Girran... W K, Archie and Gib. Well W K never took an apprentice, he wouldn't you know, he hadn't time, he had a permanent assis assistants like. He wouldn't he wouldn't take in ion an apprentice, it was too much. So I got in to Gib n as an apprentice on the second of August, nineteen twelve I think. Nineteen and eleven or twelve and er he was a figure in the b in the town, when I tell you, you won't remember the who were members of parliament for Orkney and Shetland. And if Punch were ever stuck he would get a cartoon of er one or other of the brothers sitting in parliament knitting. You know whistling and knitting. Well this man something wrong and he er had an appointment with a Girran man who was Professor of medicine in Glasgow, he'd gone up the ladder you know and finished. And he made an appointment. Well came from Bar which is er a matter of six miles, six to eight miles out side Girran and you'd got to come in by foot or by trap. In those days he came in with a His coachman brought him in the trap and they got the twenty minutes past seven express train to Glasgow. Well er he saw the Professor and paid the fee and that and then came back six clock at night, he came into the shop. And he said he says Is er Gib in? Well the assistant said no er Ah he's upstairs getting his tea. Stayed above the shop, you see? In the house. But he said wait a minute I hear him coming down the stairs. So the boss came down the stairs and into the shop and he saw Oh hello, well did you get on with the... Your examination? Ah well he says, and he said he's given me this list. If you can't get If you give me something of your own. [LAUGHTER] After he travelled to Glasgow, he had more faith in the He'd more, you know, [Ann:] Mhm. [Eric:] if had said Oh this isn't worth a damn, take this, he would have taken it and been happy. [Ann:] Mhm. [Eric:] And Oh No he said, this' ll be good, you know. [Ann:] So can you remember your f your wage when you went first? [Eric:] When I started first it was five pounds a year.... [Ann:] And were you paid at six months or were paid every [Eric:] No paid every three months. [Ann:] [cough] [Eric:] And invariably you got a gold sovereign, you see? And er what, [whispering] four []... the rest I think it was one pound five a Twenty five shillings every three months and you got a sovereign and often a five shilling piece. If you didn't get the five shilling piece you got two half crowns.... Then it gradually went from five pounds to ten. There was a five pound increase every year you see? [Ann:] And what er was your job when you first started? [Eric:] When you first started you had the hallmark of an apprentice of black apron with a bib on it. You know er you see some of them with the apron that just goes round the waist. But this one came up over neck, over your neck, and then down here and strings there. And you did two years as an apprentice then another would come in and you dropped the bib and got a black apron. When your apprenticeship was finished, you got a white apron. [Ann:] How long was the apprenticeship. [Eric:] The apprentice varied three years up to, some of them were five. [Ann:] And what did you do as an apprentice a at first? [Eric:] I The first thing you were shown, taught to do, was to wash the bottles. You know, empty medicine bottles. You washed them. The er apparatus, measures, slabs, mortars, that were used for making compounds or dispensing medicines. They were put on the sink and you washed them. And dried them and put them on the rack again. And gradually... dust or you've seen these er chemist shops where you've got lots of er drawers in. Well in my day, all those drawers had the natural drug. Aconite root, inside was a small cardboard label, you see? Giving the whole story Rad aconite, beruncial assay Britain, habitat Britain. use, root, liniment, you see? And you had to do all that dusting and keep it and you'd read over all these things, every time you dusted until you got to know them. That was one of the ways of training you or breaking you in to what was materia m the materia medica of the pharmacy. If he today er you don't hear such thing as aconite liniment, belladonna liniment. Extract of bella belladonna. Dandelion juice, Succus delaxica they've been replaced. Then, you see, at certain periods of the years herbs were common, bloom, which a lot of it was used. You used to go with the boss. The boss would cut the bloom, you would put it into the sack, bring it back to the shop and dry it.... You might go and collect, oh... er what Coliupe Collium, Collium Maculatum,spotted... come up, you'd go and cut it, you know, bring it in, get the Succus Conium that would keep you going, you know, sometimes he would he'd say Oh blast you, we used two garlands of it. We better get three garlands this year in case. Ooh we made three garlands last year, we've got two garlands left, we'll not bother. But a lot of the herbs were collected and dried and er used. [Ann:] So it was organized collecting of [Eric:] Well the usually collected himself. Er we was on the beach, you know sea front, he'd er gathered some er brands of seaweed for making what they call Irish moss, Caragium And that would give you a good think emulsion, you see then in the, what was the cod season, cod fishing, you'd go down to the harbour where the er fishing boat came in and where they were cleaning, and you'd get the boss would have arranged that you get the cod's livers. Take it back to the shop, in You've seen these old milk churns. Well I fill the milk churns with the livers and take them up to the shop. Go back and get another, you see? Get another. Make your own, produce your own cod liver oil. [Ann:] Gosh. [Eric:] And er there were two grades of it. There was the the cod liver what would for animals, that well, the method that used to be used, put it into the copper boiler. A big copper boiler, with a little warm water and the heat would separate the oil, you see? And then skim the oil off and drain it. [Ann:] What extra did you have to do for humans? [Eric:] Well you were always One thing you were very careful, you had to see that the gall bladder was removed. that it was just the liver. And sometimes you just used pressure, you see? Put it in and screw it round and round and round, so that the pressure would fetch out the oil. I can remember when the er Going down to the harbour for salt and we were getting from the manufacturer, it was at the time, getting cod liver oil, you know, ready prepared for us which was a quite a saving. As far as we were concerned. In labour. But er you had all like cold cream, special hairs tonics, rosemary, Eucalyptus hair tonics. You made those in the back shop. And having made a couple of Winchesters, that's er the big bottle, which was er eighty ounces. They were filled into two ounce, four ounce or, you know, depending on the size you you stocked and sold. [Ann:] Are they The chemist then would have to buy in all the bottles. [Eric:] Oh he bought in the bottles, you see? And er y you gave in perhaps say er two gross of three ounce bottles, two gross of two ounce bottles, four gross of four ounce, depends how they were used. And they were stored in the back in the back shop store, you see? And er kept there, then you had in the front shop, you had a range of er hair er drawers with your drugs, your drugs at the bottom. you pulled it down ad you got the various size bottles in this we got half and one ounce, here two ounce, further up three ounce. All the way round. [Ann:] When you got the bottles did they have to be cleaned? [Eric:] Yes. Cleaned and dried. [Ann:] So it was a lot of work? [Eric:] Oh lot of work. I mean the bottles weren't what you'd call dirty, from having contained medicine or anything like that. They were dirty from transit you see? And packing. So that they just needed more or less scrubbing out and put on Put into drainers, you know just a big piece of wood with holes cut in so that you could fit them in and wouldn't fall off, and dry them over the heat. [Ann:] What did you use to heat? [Eric:] There's only source of heat. [tape change] any of these. The great thing is if you've got faith in the stuff... if you haven't got faith, you needn't bother with it. That's my opinion. [Ann:] And what do you feel about er the new er [Eric:] there are some of them that are very useful but in the majority of cases if the human is functioning well it's producing it's own steroids. And those people that take or get extra, either their body is not producing or they want an extra bit for something so they can run a hundred yards at er in an extra five minutes. [Ann:] But you don't feel that these things are not really proven are they? [Eric:] No. [Ann:] They have quite disastrous side effects on the [Eric:] Er they have well just the same as er some of these weight reducers. they'll take the weight down but look at the side effects. Oh yes it's er no I think there If we just bothered there are enough or almost enough herbs to cure any Most of the common troubles. [Ann:] And do you feel nationalization was good from the medical point of view or? [Eric:] Well yes and no. People stared running to their doctor... cut finger, where previous they would have said, oh I'll have a an aspirin and a cup of tea. I'll put a bit of s adhesive plaster around this. I think at times the national health service has been exploited, you know, oh er I am no going out today, I'm no feeling well. I'll go and get the Go and see the doctor. A sick thing, he's off for a week. If we had some method a l a laser of some kind that could measure the degree of pain that Mrs A is supposed to be suffering, it would [LAUGHTER] it'd solve a lot of problems. [Ann:] Mm. remember what it was like during the nineteen twenty six strike? [Eric:] The nineteen twenty six strike, the o the thing that struck me most of all was, they were going to out the railway men. And at that time the railway was It was private. And the leading man of the railway union went out and bought all the shares he could get his hands on and off the railway company. And he'll not come out on strike. And that's And er it was the railway men not coming out on strike that caused the collapse of the strike. But there wasn't much interference in in Edinburgh.... As far as I can remember. I mean we could get about, we got about alright. There's There was food and all that available. Oh no I the twenty six strike er is just a You know a very very big and er you know er railway man, leader of the strike, buying all the shares because he was But that's one of the things, because it was a headline in the [Ann:] Paper. [Eric:] Papers. [Ann:] I see, so coming back to er making the pills and silver on it and gold, was this er sort of foe the aristocracy more? [Eric:] No no. No. [Ann:] No. [Eric:] No. Anybody you know, er it sometimes does work, very keen on a nice appearance you see, that the drug be have a nice appearance and so the had silver coated. No no it wasn't I seen I seen people in the pleasance being silver coated pills. And you wouldn't say that was No. [Ann:] How do you feel, the sort of looking back on life, sort of the difference now u when you were young? [Eric:] Well, how do I feel? I'm grateful that I was born when I was, rather than being a youngster today. Although I have Well I've come through two wars and I remember the relief of Mathaking but I'd sooner that I've was born when I was. [Ann:] Why? [Eric:] Well today it I may be wrong, I hope I am, but it seems to me, everybody is out, you know, oh he gets five bob I want seven and six, he get's seven and six, I want ten. And there seems to be dissatisfaction, greed, I dunno what amongst the youngsters today. [Ann:] And what did you do as er your leisure time as a a young man and? [Eric:] Well, you hadn't got a great deal of money, now... you would go for a walk out in Edinburgh, out to black Blackhole because Blackhole was a village. Or you'd go down the er out to Barton and down the side of Armand up and back again. Y you had a a walk Saturday morning, when Saturday morning. I went for a game of golf, I had nine holes. I was a member of Ra er Ravelston Why? It was very easy, I could walk up to Ravelston nine holes, walk back in time.... Or I got a garden, I could occupy myself in the garden. I never felt time hanging. Ooh well you got er a l a lecture a couple of lectures every day, well you You couldn't just er press a button and they came out, you got er preparation work. [Ann:] enjoyed lecturing? [Eric:] Yes. And I made many of my own students are still friends. Now [cough] we're a bit off Christmas, we've [cough] We have had Christmas cards from Norway, Indonesia, Mauritius, Northern Island not to mention the er Scotland and England. But these are from students of well past days.... [Ann:] So it's very nice. [Eric:] So well er I had students and they left at as friends. If if we had overseas students, you know er somebody from Zambia or What er people Afro Asians or in Indonesians or something like. Well they were they were coloured, well it didn't matter to me. My wife kept an open door for them and any time Well at the weekend they'd Some of them would drop in, you know, for a chat, aye. Or drop in for tea or supper.... I was much more, well [cough] I'll not say interested altogether, but much more thoughtful of the condition of er these coloured people. Why? Well a biddy ago now, a Nigerian came to Edinburgh, a student, went to the regular places. No no to let, advertising accomo They wouldn't have him, well what's that? What impression is that going to have on that laddie?... So but er the overseas fellow, You know I'll consider just on the same level, and ofte Well I never saw any er what you'd call bickering and biding between the black and the white student. And the u a couple of them would come, a black and a white would be here and no bother at all. But there you are. [Ann:] Did you find that through the years the classes got bigger? That that you lectured to? [Eric:] Well the classes remained steady. You know we could've We limited They were limited to the intake, but we could have er increased I think. We kept a steady increase, you see when the two year course stared first, I think we had eight students, and then it grew, you see. The next year the eight to the final year, there's sixteen the next year until we were getting that the two year course was just as big as the old one year course. And you got er eighty four students first year, eighty four students second tear, that's a hundred and sixty eight students. Oh but we got on. Oh yes. [Ann:] And did you find that the text book they had to use, changed through the years or just the [Eric:] Well [Ann:] of the same text [Eric:] no [Ann:] books. [Eric:] they're they are pretty much the same. The chemistry text books ch And the physics changed, they got a bit more what you would call mathematic mathematical. But you can't math mathematize the making of an ointment or the making of an infusion. They're perhaps little er more about the condition of the granules of a powder used for compressing into tablets, and the coating, how shall we coat it so that it washed away at once, dissolved slowly or anything like that. [sniff] [Ann:] Yes, that was a big change really wasn't it? [Eric:] Yes. [Ann:] Coating. [Eric:] Coating. [Ann:] Yes. [Eric:] So that you could get the slow and of course coating the granules before compression. [Ann:] Mm. [Eric:] So that er you get a slow or a retarded er effect or solution rather absorption.... Oh yes. [tape change]

[speaker001:] corner. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Selwyn to your end. [Selwyn:] Yes. [speaker001:] Oh it did erm did wha did [Selwyn:] What would it be? [speaker001:] Joyce, did Joyce do a few? She gave a few. [Selwyn:] No, I took them off of her, she gave them to me [speaker001:] Oh right. [Selwyn:] and I went down as far as er [speaker001:] Was it the corner? Where you can see I think you know. [Selwyn:] er [speaker001:] As far as the eye can see I mean. Yeah, I see what you mean, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Selwyn:] I went down as far as Frank 's [speaker001:] Yeah. [Selwyn:] on the corner. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Paul:] Have you had problems in the area recently? [Jan:] don't know. [Paul:] Burglaries? [speaker001:] Well [Jan:] the only thing we [Lyn:] Somebody. [Jan:] Oh yeah. [Paul:] buy three ten. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] I mean I go, I go to some meetings, yeah and I asked who's been burgled and all the hands shoot up. [Lyn:] Really? [Paul:] Oh yeah. [Lyn:] Yeah. [Paul:] Not in this area, in Nottingham [Lyn:] Yeah. [door slam] [speaker007:] One or two burglaries during the day time. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Lyn:] Yeah. [speaker007:] People have been in the house and they nipped in while they've been [Selwyn:] Yes. Yeah. [speaker007:] Mrs [Selwyn:] Yes. That's only about two month ago isn't it? [speaker007:] Two month ago. Mm. They've just gone round. They've been on loo while they've been and done them. [speaker001:] anyone's gonna They don't want the same crime. [Paul:] Well I don't know really what you mean by [speaker001:] Well I mean there's nothing much anyway. It, it into Southwell. [Paul:] Yeah, it's very low. [speaker001:] Yeah erm [Paul:] Er but having said that, was [speaker001:] Oh absolutely yeah yeah. [speaker007:] seventeen cars broken into. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker007:] On Saturday night [Paul:] There can be a lot of crime occur without you knowing. [speaker001:] Yeah that's right [Paul:] Someone tells me the other day that I, I've you know y [speaker001:] Yeah. [Paul:] s three public houses there in a, a row, must be fairly unique that. Er it's not to live there it's just [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] coincidence. [LAUGHTER] But he was telling me that there's twenty one cars been stolen from the car park this year. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] And I didn't know wh anything. Because [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] the people come into the village [Jan:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] er for the entertainment, and their car gets stolen. Cos they don't say anyone in the village car been stolen [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] they go home and tell their neighbours. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Consequently we don't hear about it. So you, you may have crimes against cars in [speaker001:] Mm. [Paul:] particular [Lyn:] Yeah [Paul:] where people coming [Lyn:] on the main road [Paul:] Yeah. [Lyn:] get broken in to. [speaker007:] Mm. [door slam] [Paul:] Do you want me to make a start now or do you want me to [Lyn:] Yeah, [Paul:] Right. I'll give these out first of all. Just get rid of them and I wo won't have to worry about them any more. Three four five.... Take one, pass them round. Bit like being at college isn't it? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] pass one of these round each and if, there's plenty here so if you've got any friends, neighbours that can't be here tonight for any reason then feel free to take one afterwards and, well it wouldn't bother me if I had none to take back.... [speaker001:] Yeah. [someone walking, door opens and shuts] [speaker002:] [cough] [Selwyn:] Thank you. [Jan:] Oh right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Right. [Jan:] Pass them along. [Paul:] If I can just introduce myself. Er I think you've all guessed that I must be the policeman. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] [LAUGHTER] Considering I'm dressed in a black suit []. [Selwyn:] I were looking at your feet but [Paul:] Well they're not that [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] they're not that big, they're only size eight, they're not really a sort of stereotype policeman. My name's Paul I'm a sergeant with the Community Affairs Department er I'm, I was based at until last week but now I'm based at temporarily. Erm my history in the police is that I've got eighteen years' police servicing, started at Newark which isn't too far away from here, did about four years there and I was a village policeman at Alderton for about a year of that time. And er it achieved my first ambition in life to appear on television I, I don't know wheth can you remember the Rampton enquiry [speaker001:] Yeah. [Paul:] that was on? [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. [Paul:] Well that all started of at Alderton hospital when I, I was seen to run across this field and rescue [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] patient that had slashed their wrists. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] When it was on television it really looked, it really looked good but er the reality of it was it was pretty bad really but er the editor was very kind to me and made me look quite a hero but. In fact he had me arriving at the scene in a police car with two tones, at, at, at that time we didn't have police cars with two tones, just siren, so they obviously put some sound on it. I actually arrived in a neighbour's Mini car. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [cough] [Paul:] see on television. I moved from er Alderton and went to Bingham I suppose you all remember the Bingham area again? I was there for about a couple of years and then I moved in into Nottingham on traff on the Traffic Department, you know the people that wear the white hats and, and do people for speeding. Er but we dealt with quite a few serious accidents in the time I was there. That was the main we had. Also had a spell on the motorway for about er I think it was just over a year. [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] Er on the M one. We don't cover a great deal of the M one but it's something like fourteen miles but that was about the time of the miners' strike as well so I was on traffic when that was on and we had these intercept boys who were working something like thirteen hour shifts for about a year. absolutely ridiculous it was. And then from there I moved on to C I D at in Nottingham. Did a year and a half there and then er promoted me and moved me back to Newark. Er where I did about three years and then moved to Southwell. So there's a good year and a half at Southwell so I know the area, in fact I was over at Southwell when Simon was a police officer, covering the area. I don't know whether you know Simon? [Dave:] Yes. [Paul:] I think he's been replaced now, well not replaced [Dave:] a long time ago. [sniff] [Paul:] He's gone, yeah. Er I think he still covers the area though doesn't he? [Dave:] Now and again. [Paul:] Yeah, yeah but there's, you've got a new village police officer haven't you? Or have you? [Dave:] Yes er ex [Selwyn:] Yeah. [Dave:] army yeah. [Paul:] Is he? Oh. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dave:] Oh yes. [Paul:] I don't think. What's your name? [Dave:] Er [Jan:] Colin. [speaker001:] Colin [Dave:] that's it? [Paul:] Ah, I don't, I don't know him I've not met him then. [Dave:] No he's not long out of the army. [Paul:] No. [Dave:] He's in the army. [Paul:] So you're gonna get some Northern Ireland type policing. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Yeah oh yes []. Right we'll move on from that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] So I was in at, at er Southwell when the job came on community affairs, I've been on community affairs for the last four years. What we deal with there is crime prevention. Er school liaison, er we do things like arrange talks to different community groups, put on shows and displays. We also have er a branch that deals with juvenile crime as well. Er although that part of the department seems to be a bit independent of the rest of it. Tt so that's what I do. Er j I just wanted to give you a bit of background so you know who you're talking with. When there's er when there's this sort of number what I like to do is make it very informal, more of a chat really than, than a talk. I mean if the room was full a projector and slide show and everything and then usually everybody falls to sleep [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] half way through anyway so, so we'll have a chat and if there's any sort of er questions, burning questions as er I'm going along, feel free to ask. In fact I'd rather you ask as I'm going through because er very often you think of something and er you wait to the end and you've forgotten what it was you wanted to know until you've got home when then you re all of a sudden you remember what it was. So I want to start about talking about what Neighbourhood Watch is and what it isn't. And see what you feel Neighbourhood Watch should be or shouldn't be. And then talk about er house security. But I, I wanted to try something slightly different tonight as a bit of an experiment, I wanted us to sort of put ourselves in the position of the criminal and we plan a burglary of our house and see what, what we think about. Now if we do that then er if you know how to plan a burglary and we're relying on you not to actually take this [LAUGHTER] in [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] in to practice. If we plan a burglary between us at least it makes us think about the, the sort of things that we need to look at our houses, to stop that burglary from [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] burglary from happening. So that's what I want to do, is that okay with everybody? That'll satisfy everybody will it? Right. Neighbourhood Watch, erm it's an American idea. I think in America what they did is actually people went out on patrol there. Er I'm not sure whether they went out with guns or anything like that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [in background] Or [Paul:] Well yeah, yeah that's the sort of thing it was [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] more, the emphas the emphasis was on civilians patrolling their own, their own areas. Erm that may be fine in America but we didn't think it was particularly relevant to this country although there's nothing to stop anyone patrolling if they want to but we don't particularly advise it. It came over here in nineteen eighty four, the first Nei sorry, nineteen eighty two. The first Neighbourhood Watch was this place called Mollington in Cheshire. Now I say that was the first Neighbourhood Watch, it was actually the first police recognized Neighbourhood Watch. There's a chap er at our called Bill who claims that he got one one year before that but he can't prove it to us, er apparently he read in the Readers Digest of Neighbourhood Watch schemes in America and set one up himself in his own little area. Now, but he forgot to tell the police so unfortunately for p poor old Bill he never got his name in history. Whereas the er coordinator at Mollington in Cheshire er has now. So that was nineteen eighty two, the first one we had was at the end of nineteen eighty four, which was at. Erm we made a little mistake with that one because it was a, a very big area, a lot of houses, and er the Crime Prevention Department as it was then, promised everyone that we'd visit everyone's house and, and advise them on their security. Which is a nice promise to make but when you've got so many thousand houses to get through it took about six months to set the scheme up. Now just give you an example of the numbers of schemes we've got at the moment, just on my area, my old area from West Bridgford, covering Newark, there's two hundred and twenty Neighbourhood Watch schemes. So if it took six months to start each scheme up w well I think we'd still be on number three or four. So we re we revamped Neighbourhood Watch, and what we did was er is er instead of going to everyone's house we have this meeting at the beginning just to discuss crime prevention and er tell people what Neighbourhood Watch is about. Er Neighbourhood Watch has grown quite fast. Erm it's certainly grown faster than we anticipated it growing and we are not able to er we're not able to carry out what we like to do with Neighbourhood Watch. We'd like to keep Neighbourhood Watch fully informed of all the crimes that happen in the area. We can't do that, we can't even keep ourselves informed too easily as to what's happening. So the emphasis now is more on the people themselves, basically Neighbourhood Watch is your scheme, it's not a police thing, we support it, we pay for the hall tonight, we pay for the signs for the street and we give you all the literature free, but it is your scheme and it's how you want it to be. Some Neighbourhood Watches do things like run cheese and wine parties and trips to the coast and bonfire night, Christmas parties and all that lot. Some don't do anything at all, they're just there in the, in the name alone and if anything does happen they'll into action. But I suppose the real thing about Neighbourhood Watch as I see it is it's there to create a, a neighbourly spirit. Not much more than that, I think most good ne neighbours look for each other anyway, in fact probably that's what happens in your street. You all look after each other. If someone goes away on holiday, you may well give the key to a neighbour, they probably know a relative of yours or somebody like that that if anything does happen they can contact you or your relative to come down and check the house over. Er some neighbours cut each other 's lawn while they're away so the grass doesn't grow too long and make sure that the mail's moved away from the letter box. They're the sort of things that happen? [speaker002:] Mm. I don't know, I'm not [Paul:] You're a [Lyn:] I have methods actually, no. [Paul:] Yeah. [Lyn:] I mean I'm her relative around here and certainly no one cuts my lawn. [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Don't they? Right. [Lyn:] No. [Paul:] Right. [Lyn:] Erm [Paul:] N Neighbourhood Watch is, is, is trying to establish that type of relationship in, in the area so that everybody does know each other. Not to the extent where you're living in each other 's pockets, it's just that er you know enough about each other to see if there's anything out of the ordinary happening. And if a strange person is walking up the driveway with intention of breaking in at least somebody may notice it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Paul:] Er I, I suppose if we're going back something like forty, fifty years where people tended to live in the same area most of their lives, and their families in the area, people didn't move very far, they were probably born in an area, went to work in the area and died in the area. Er that's completely changed now,p people move great distances when they get employ to, to find employment. Now I'm, I'm from Worksop and my first job was at Newark and my contacts now gone. Erm s so you've now got the situation in modern times where people probably go out to work all day, come home at the end and don't even know who the names of the people living next door to them. And that's happening more and more. And Neighbourhood Watch is really to try that down a little bit. The only problem with it is that very often we, the people that organize the Neighbourhood Watches already live in areas that [LAUGHTER] don't really need one [] that much. You know they're already fairly good neighbours anyway. Er we'd like to introduce Neighbourhood Watch into inner city areas where people don't know each other too well. We try and get them to look after each other. Th the crime problem, as we've already said isn't too, too great here but er nevertheless it's important that we, we er keep our eyes open and try and keep crime out because some of these people that erm are living in the bigger cities that are criminals are now starting to discover that it's easier to come out to places like Farnsfield and commit the crime, because we, we're not experienced at it. But we trust too many people and er could certainly find burglaries have gone up gone up something like five hundred percent in the last two or three years. Er it hasn't happened here too much yet but it could be there in the near future, so we've all got to be really careful about that. Neighbourhood Watches is organized er in the, there's, we have a head coordinator i of each scheme which is er someone that lives in the area. Usually the head coordinator is the person who er takes the [LAUGHTER] initiative [] to organize the scheme. And in, in that case it, I forget your first name? [Jan:] Jan. [speaker002:] Jan. [Jan:] Jan. [Paul:] Jan. Erm usually it's the person that does that so it, it's probably you. [LAUGHTER] [Jan:] Yeah. [Paul:] But er some schemes have annual general meetings and elect people er some are quite content to leave things as they are and the volunteer carries on all the way through with it. That head coordinator is appointed contact for the police. If we needed to talk to your scheme and if we would, it would be fairly serious incident for us to come to you, to tell you about it ask Phil for some help with it. Er it just gives us a focal point for us to go and see. And then what the head coordinator needs is some other people to help. Now have you got, is that [Jan:] Mm. [Paul:] organized is it? [Jan:] To my left [speaker007:] You don't mind them do you? [speaker002:] known about them. [Jan:] discussed it actually. [Dave:] No she asked me [Jan:] That's right and [speaker002:] Yes. [Jan:] Selwyn. And we have discussed it haven't we Selwyn? Yeah. [Selwyn:] Yeah. [Paul:] Now all that, all that is just, just to ease the burden that [Jan:] Mm. [Paul:] you may have. In, occasionally we send out er we have like a, a neighbourhood news newspaper for Neighbourhood Watch schemes. And we'll come and we'll leave you a pile of newspapers to distribute. If you don't want them you don't have to but they're free of charge. And if you decide to distribute them then you're going to need to help, so you just give a few to, and a few to you as well, we'll get them distributed that way. Er if it was something serious, like say we'd had a murder or something in the village [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] you'd probably know about it before our police force do, the way villages work. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] But may be that we had a description, want to get the description out to as many people as possible, to see if anybody recognizes the person described, er then we'd come to you there, give you the description of the [Jan:] Mm. [Paul:] Go round and ask everybody in the area. Er and you'd get some feedback to us... from the Neighbourhood Watch point of view er and it's not peculiar to Neighbourhood Watches but er from, from your point of view you also have access to the police in that er eventually there should be a liaison built up, not overnight I mean it won't, it won't happen tomorrow morning either, but there'll be a lia liaison between the, the local police officer and yourselves... er and if there's any problems that you may have, you know and you'll be able to communicate back to them. If, if there's an incident happens, doesn't mean you have to wait for the local police officer to tell, to come along and tell him, you've still got police support all round you anywhere. [cough] It's important that if it's an incident to get in contact with us straight away. It's only if there's a sort of niggling problem that would tell the coordinator about and they would pass it to the police officers. Er it's, it's hard to think of an example but something like if, if you thought that this street lighting wasn't adequate and you were concerned that the, it could affect the crime levels in your area. And I'm not saying that will happen but that's the sort of [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] thing you could pass on to the police and they could take it up with the local council. Or you could as a Neighbourhood Watch do that yourself. Makes you into a sort of pressure group. If there's anything you need action on, a cr crime or anything like that, then contact the police direct. There's two ways of doing that, dial them on nine nine nine or ring up the local police control, which for this area is at Newark. Er a lot of people ask me, how are you choose the difference between nine nine nine and the local police station. If it's something you want the police there to deal with quite quickly and if, if they waited an hour or so and the police didn't come then couldn't deal with it. An example would be, if there's er a strange person g gone up the neighbour's drive, you know they're on holiday and you hear a window smash, you need the police there straight away to deal with that. That is a nine nine nine. If you er using a similar example, if, if you were looking after the neighbour's house while they're away on holiday and found that they'd been broken into, then that wouldn't necessarily be a nine nine nine call, unless you thought there was somebody in the house. Because it wouldn't really matter that much if it took an hour for the police officer to come. I mean it's happened, it's gone er and doesn't matter how quickly the police officer gets there to deal with it. Having said that if you did dial nine nine nine we wouldn't be too hard on you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] In fact we'd rather you ring nine nine nine er but find out it wasn't necessary than you not to ring nine nine nine when it was necessary. So if there's any doubt, use your nine nine nine system. Right any questions on that? [Dave:] Well that's the best thing, cos I'm on a case a couple of weeks and I rang your police on Friday night [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] and they came on Tuesday. [Paul:] What was that? [Dave:] I'm not going to mention any names and all. [Paul:] No no [Dave:] He was round the Friday night [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] and the Monday, and they eventually turned up on the Tuesday. [Paul:] Yeah, what was it for? [Dave:] Well it was just damage to my car. But we couldn't have any couldn't have any had they come on Friday, they may have done. Not too late on Tuesday. [Paul:] Mm. Mm. [Dave:] They said they'll contact the was out, and it was forgotten. [Paul:] Was it? [Dave:] Well it must have been, to arrive Tuesdays. [Paul:] Well I'm not, it's not sometimes they have they wait for the local officer to come on duty. If it's something like that, they will do that occasionally. But where they fell down, they should have told you that was what would happen [Dave:] Right. [Paul:] erm so that y so that you expected this sort of measure of service and if you were told the, if you were told the circumstances you might have said well that's okay, no problem. I mean you mi then you might have said, well actually I want someone here a bit quicker and then they would have done something else. [Dave:] Mm. [Paul:] would have told you. But i it occasionally happens though, er it's not very good though is it? [Dave:] It's not, no. Let's think, [speaker002:] No. [Dave:] you say about Neighbourhood Watch contact [speaker002:] Yeah, [Dave:] the police [speaker002:] yeah. [Dave:] to observe them. If you're gonna wait three days at a time for the local copper to turn up, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] what's the point? [Paul:] That's bit too [Lyn:] The things is [Paul:] some of them being throttled round at the time. No. Erm, yeah. You think Newark's bad, you ought to see some of the police stations in Nottingham. Carlton police station, which is my police station, you can wait twenty minutes for the phone to be answered. yeah. Now we, we do know that's a problem, the police service know it's a problem, and the Chief Constable's come up with these er these performance targets, where he's try he's promising to the public that he's going to endeavour to make sure that all police telephone calls are answered within certain time periods. [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] And we've got a very big computerized telephone system, so that if it doesn't answer sit there with a stopwatch timing each phone I presume, it's all automatically done and they get a print out at the end of every month giving the average time of the, the phone the, the, the phone takes to be answered. And then that's circulated to each division, and if Newark in the future isn't coming up anywhere near those standards or, or failing to improve month after month, then he'll want to know why. And one of the things they're going to do is to centralize the switchboard that it'll, you won't actually ring me up at all, you might ring the, the telephone number for Newark but it'll be answered at headquarters and they'll put you through. Cos a lot, a lot of the time is spent er by the switchboard operators just putting calls through to different officers. And you might be waiting to report an incident. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] So what we've got to do is try and filter out that so that the incidents go straight through to the incident rooms, rather than being queued behind everybody who just wants to speak to the caretaker, to talk about the hinges that's just normally. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Is that, that's the problem, the pile up of, of calls. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] But if, if you do ring a police station and they are answered in order, so it's just a matter of waiting, they will be answered [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] but the switchboard has it will take them in order, it's not just a matter of which button shall I press now. That's it. Any more comments at all on the Neighbourhood Watch before I start? [speaker009:] Yes. Er what's er what's the position about noise? Can we do anything about that? [Paul:] It [speaker009:] Er record players er record players [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker009:] it's er doesn't actually affect me but I can hear it. thump thump thump. [Paul:] Is it er a neighbour's house or is [speaker009:] Yes, [Paul:] it a pub or [speaker009:] yes er no it's the neighbour's house across the road. [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker009:] And they have parties about once a fortnight and well [Paul:] Yeah, well [speaker009:] underaged drinking too. [Paul:] Yeah, I, I could say well that's not a police issue and then forget about it but that's not really a good response,? [speaker009:] No. [Paul:] Er the environmental people at Newark er at Newarkshire and District Council [speaker009:] Yeah. [Paul:] should be able to deal with that for you. Erm I, I think the way to deal with any anybody that's making noise you subtle obligation on people to actually mention it to them. [speaker009:] Mhm. [Paul:] It may well have been done. [speaker009:] You see we d we don't know when they're going to have these parties, [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker009:] and you see if we ring s Newark and Sherwood up at the there these bastards going get the answerphone don't you? [Paul:] You know what there is? [speaker009:] next morning. [Paul:] Yes. That's the problem, if it's a one-off party there's not a great deal you can do. Some people do ring the police [Lyn:] Yeah. [Paul:] After one-off parties [speaker002:] [background to following] [Paul:] What I'm saying if it is a one-off party there's not a lot we can do about that. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] Some people do ring the police up and the police, if we've got the time, we'll come along and ask them to switch it down. [speaker009:] Yeah. [Paul:] The problem comes if they don't, cos there's not a lot else we can do about that. Generally speaking though most people will switch things down. I mean the street I lived once and er the police came to the party, it did get switched down a little bit, but er th the falling out after that for the next week, who rang the police and you [speaker009:] Yes. [Paul:] know it was a real big thing, [speaker009:] Yes. [Paul:] but there was no parties after that for quite a long time. Unless people invited the next door neighbours, then it wasn't too bad. But if it's something that's going off fairly regular [speaker009:] Every Saturday night. [Paul:] Mm yeah, if it's something regular [speaker009:] . Every Saturday, yeah. [Paul:] Then there's a individual [speaker009:] From four o'clock onwards. [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker009:] From four o'clock onwards [Paul:] If it's i as [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] an individual or as now as a, a Neighbourhood Watch, although I mean it's not the main function of Neighbourhood Watch to do not noisy parties, but it could do, then make a complaint to Newark and District Council [speaker002:] To the [Paul:] to the environmental health people. [speaker009:] Just we're talking about got two children, a girl, a boy. With the girl about fourteen? Fifteen isn't she? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah [Paul:] Is it a council house? [speaker009:] I should think something like that really. [Paul:] Is it a council house? [speaker009:] There's only them two [speaker002:] Yes. Yes. [Paul:] Well [speaker009:] I had to go round the other night, Saturday night, and you couldn't get through the door. There were, I, young and girls and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] and a lot of smoking and drinking and language and [Paul:] Yeah and while I've seen what's doing it [speaker009:] I'll just say that's it not [Paul:] In a in an addition to er the er environmental health people though, if it's a council house there's housing department will deal with that. [speaker009:] It's like talking to that wall [Paul:] You've got to keep on at it and it's like, like us, you've got to keep on at us sometimes, [speaker009:] Er I've got to live next door to them that's [Paul:] Yeah, [speaker009:] all. [Paul:] and sometimes it's, it's, it's er rather than ring up, write a letter, cos it's surprising how differently things are treated if it's in writing. [speaker009:] Well I'm not the only one, this is the whole point, I'm not the only one, most everyone here's rang up about it. [Paul:] Yeah. Yeah well phone calls can get forgotten about, you're not far away as a phone call. [Dave:] drugs involved as well, as well as [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] And it's [speaker009:] Yes well singing [Dave:] been in hospital three or four times, [speaker009:] There's, there's drugs in there, there's drug in that house, I'm sure [Dave:] Hard stuff as well as the grass. [Paul:] Well I, I, I'll, what I'll have to do is have a word with the local police on this, cos it's not something I can deal with tonight. [Dave:] Oh no it was just [Paul:] Yeah, I'll, I'll bring that up for you and see what it is. [Dave:] If they walk in there they'd get a right haul, they'd have the lot. [speaker009:] Coming back to the council last year, some time in May last year, and er I was telling them about the noise and the situation, at the time. And er I told them that er I wasn't p p p prepared er because they was there during the day as well, it didn't used to across to catch the school bus, and be half a dozen or so come back next door, and stop there till about twenty past three then go back, come back over as if he's got out the bus. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] He was next door making noise [Paul:] Well, I don't want I don't want to dwell too much on this. [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] I'm glad you brought that up really, in a sense, because if you complain about something, very often you can feel o on your own, that you're the only one that's doing that someone will take retribution on you [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] but as a group of people er you can support each other, it makes you feel a bit happier about complaining.. Especially if there's several others complaining as well. I suppose one of the things about Neighbourhood Watch, if, if it worked properly, is that you, there's a group of you with a common interest, and you could deal with a situation like that a bit better than you could if you were on your own. [speaker009:] Well when I was down at the er council that May, I told them there and then that er I'm prepared to er let one of the council men come to our house, about eight o'clock in the morning, and then stop till ten and then come back again about two and wait till they come home from school which they wouldn't have come home from school, but they go across the road and come back again, double back as if they'd been to school [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker009:] but they're not. Er I offered it for about eight hours a day, but they might send us somebody might. [Paul:] Well keep at them. [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think when you you get probably fifty five, and get them sixty retire, why should you put up with all this harassment? [speaker009:] But th th this is [speaker001:] It's not fair, is it? And, and I think that y until you can do something about this then you're not going to fight the crimes that occur. Cos half of it's [Paul:] Well that's true, yeah. [speaker001:] children anyway, aren't they? [Paul:] I, I, er I used to have an inspector when I was on traffic and he says you take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. [speaker001:] That's right, yeah. [Paul:] And if you do let the little [speaker001:] Yeah. [Paul:] things slip then I mean it, it has a knock-on effect. [speaker001:] Mm mm mm. [Paul:] I mean you have no hope at all of [speaker001:] Yeah. [Paul:] the big things if you don't tackle the little ones. [speaker001:] Because noise, I mean it is harassing, it gets on your nerves, you know. You feel like strangling them. [speaker009:] At the one direction it's these people next door to us I've lived there what, twenty six, twenty seven years, and we, I've people living next door, six children and never a any noise to what we get in there. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Ah but they weren't one parent families [speaker009:] Now Mrs [speaker001:] were they? [speaker009:] Mrs schoolteachers [speaker001:] Yes, but they weren't on Social Security were they? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] One parent fam [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] One parent family, Social Security. That's where the [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] is. [Lyn:] Well, I don't [speaker001:] one parent families [Paul:] No. [speaker001:] I think I think y with a certain you get an [speaker002:] Yes. Not unless [speaker001:] We get it now, we're getting altogether [Paul:] How long have they lived there? [speaker009:] Too long, er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jan:] About three years isn't it? [speaker009:] Er, [Jan:] Three or four years. [speaker009:] I'm four year now. [Jan:] Four years. [speaker009:] Four year. [Paul:] Yeah well [speaker009:] but er you don't know who lives there, [Dave:] was that different blokes living a going there, you don't know who's there. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [Paul:] Well I, I can't really do much about that tonight but if, if you can leave that with me, what I'll do is I'll have a word with er [speaker009:] Saturday [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] See if we can sort that out. Erm s certainly one of the ways is to keep [speaker009:] that chap was on that car horn. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker009:] I looked through the bedroom and this chap was standing on this Mini, jumping up and down. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] He got off the Mini, he that went flying up street, she came out of the next door. They both got a taxi to the [speaker007:] I was with her, I was [speaker009:] She, he gets out, he gets her nightdress, he pushes her nightdress under dancing like a [Paul:] This is a party is it? [speaker009:] No [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Normal [speaker007:] They'd been shopping. [speaker009:] gardening and all. [speaker002:] social workers [Paul:] So it weren't them dancing on the car then? [speaker002:] Hmm? [Paul:] It wasn't them dancing on the car, it was this chap who was doing it? [speaker009:] It was just a chap I'm sure [speaker002:] He was [cough] [speaker009:] no numberplates on the car cos the following morning I went out no numberplate and there were bits of car all over the street but [speaker007:] throwed off [speaker009:] He did. [speaker007:] I watch [speaker009:] Got no idea. [speaker007:] Got no idea. Yes I [speaker009:] alright for a [Paul:] criminal [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] Erm I've not done this before and I wanted to try it out with a small group like yourselves to see how we go on with it. What I want to do is try and find out, we'll try and put ourselves in the criminal's er position and then s see how we go about breaking into a house. That make sense? [Jan:] Yes. [Paul:] The o one thing that w we have to have in mind though is that the this particular criminal that we are doesn't want to get caught. Most, most criminals don't want to get caught but there are the odd exceptions who are a bit idiotic er but we erm they're very rare and usually high on drugs on something like that, but we're just your ordinary sort of down and out type criminal who wants to break in some way. Doesn't want to get caught, probably been in prison before, may even be on a suspended sentence and if they get caught they're going to go erm in prison for about more than a year or so. Er so that's, that's what we are, criminal, we don't want to get caught and want to get some money and th the way we're going to do it is to break into our house. Erm if we can just sort of work out in our own minds what, I, I don't want addresses or anything like that, so don't say oh I'll break into number six, or anything like that but just anywhere in the area of Farnsfield imagine houses yourself, is to what sort of type of house we break into. When we say that I don't mean whether it's a four or three bedroom house, I mean the sort of location it would be in, whether it would be a middle of a terrace or a middle of a string of houses, on the corner of a street or whether it would be on its own in the country somewhere or whether the back garden would back on to some playing fields or er the railway line or whether there'd be houses at the back. Whether you'd break into to it from the front, from the side, the back that sort of thing. Anybody want to start [Dave:] an isolated place don't you? The more isolated the better. [Lyn:] One w yeah, one where doors are. There's plenty of trees around, like mine [LAUGHTER] for instance [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Why do, why do you say that? [Lyn:] Well then if, if someone was breaking in and they probably don't go through doors, burglars, I've never really studied it but [Paul:] Well they do, they do, [Lyn:] They do. Well if you [cough] if you can't see a door from the road then that will be the ideal entrance I would have thought. If it's [Paul:] Mhm. [Lyn:] shaded by trees. [Paul:] So you'd go for a, you'd go for somewhere isolated? [Selwyn:] Mm. [Paul:] You'd go for somewhere where you can't be seen. [Lyn:] Mhm, yeah. That's right. Mm. [Paul:] they're similar in a way those things. [Dave:] bloody council houses, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Ah, you're a clever criminal [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Yeah I worked for fives years I've plenty of practice [Paul:] Oh you're, you're h you're you'll, you'll, you'll be able to give us some tips then [Dave:] Yeah, C S for five years. [Paul:] So er a anybody an any other sort of houses? [speaker001:] No, I don't think I'd go for a house that erm I wouldn't but those big houses of course it would have alarms wouldn't it? [Paul:] Well it could do. [speaker001:] Oh yes, so I might the one [LAUGHTER] wasn't quite as rich []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] One with no on with no outside lights. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] And one with plenty of cover round it [Paul:] Are you sure, are you sure that none of you've done this? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] [Paul:] That's, that's a sometimes you're [Dave:] most of the big boys, they see it on television the next week they're [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Right so if we've got this house then, are w any ideas? You said secluded,wh what about corner houses, were there anybody? [speaker007:] Yes I corner houses [speaker002:] Yeah, [Paul:] You'll go for corner houses [speaker007:] very high hedge. You know and even if anybody saw you going down they wouldn't take a big deal of notice. Yes? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] And so you're covered all the way. I mean take ours, you're covered, nobody would see you would they? [speaker002:] Yeah, that's right. [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker007:] And er and I should er get in round the back. [Paul:] Round the back? [speaker007:] Round the back. [Paul:] So w w why, why then erm just see if we've got this right. If they're going for a secluded house or a house where there's plenty of trees and you can't see [speaker002:] yes. [Paul:] or, or a corner house and you're, you've always left it open. [speaker007:] Definitely a corner house, all the hedges [Jan:] Mm. [speaker007:] are open. [Jan:] in a corner house and she's been burgled about five times, in [speaker002:] Yes [Paul:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [Lyn:] You see I think it's the time, I think you've got to think about what time of day as well, haven't you? I think [Paul:] Well, yeah, that's important what, what'll we do, go at night time or in the day time? [Lyn:] Yeah I think possibly I would go at night time. Yeah because say in a village [speaker007:] You could go in the day Mm. [Lyn:] if you saw anybody strange hanging around during [speaker007:] Mm. [Lyn:] the day, you'd think oh you know [speaker007:] Yeah. [Paul:] Yeah that's possible [Lyn:] wouldn't you? [speaker007:] Yeah. [Paul:] Would we would we break into We're all assuming here that the house is empty I take it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Would you break into a house that's got someone in? [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] No. [speaker009:] You could break into that one next door to us and [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lyn:] You know you could. [Paul:] Please. [speaker007:] I mean you could walk in anybody, a lot of people's houses. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] television. [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker007:] And, and especially if there's a football match on. [Lyn:] The thing is you've got to get into a routine haven't you? You've got to find what do they say? Something in the joint? Case the joint. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lyn:] bothered to watch people [speaker007:] Yeah you've got [speaker002:] work. Where they are. [Selwyn:] If you can get a house where there's a lot of thoroughfare, where people's walking by. [Lyn:] But I wouldn't where there's a dog. And [Selwyn:] they're, they're not going to notice one s stranger go in. [Paul:] How would you know whether someone's in the house or not? [speaker009:] If you're keeping surveillance on it. [speaker002:] [background to the following] [Jan:] Lights [Paul:] Lights. [Jan:] Fire er chimney [Selwyn:] Have the windows open. [Jan:] smoking. [Paul:] What would the win [Selwyn:] The bedroom win the bedroom windows are open [Paul:] What would that what would that say to you though? [Selwyn:] Well I mean if, if you could er [Paul:] No I'm s what I'm saying is how would you know if someone's in or out? [Selwyn:] I've been keeping watch for a week or two. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] [Paul:] So you're going to be [speaker009:] When comes to the point. I should good haul. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] I'm glad you don't turn to crime [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] as a window cleaner. [Selwyn:] Going in disguise. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Lyn:] Yeah oh yeah. [Paul:] If we were to [yawn] If you were to do all this, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] wouldn't you be better off breaking into a post office or business premises or a [speaker007:] Yeah I [Paul:] They're more secure? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] There's, there's too many locks and [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker009:] window cleaner. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Well if, if, I suppose if your criminal'd be quite wise to that. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Er it might be a bit o more, more than you actually need to. [speaker009:] But you see you only want a, a, a ladder for the time being to make sure you get up I mean you can jump [Paul:] You're going up a ladder are you? [speaker009:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Yeah. Well that happens. [speaker009:] That's what I'd do, [Paul:] That happe that happens more than you think. [speaker009:] Oh does it? [Selwyn:] Yes it's a well known they never put money in banks do they? Keep it in a [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] Okay so we've got s we've, we've discussed it a little while, we've already got some, I mean you're more clever at crimes than I have really. [Dave:] Yeah [Paul:] Cos you [Dave:] more criminals than [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] we have. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] But you're well aware that the, the best thing to do is try and commit crime under some kind of cover, or [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] away from people that might, might see it. You don't want to get caught, you'll work in a secluded place, you'll go for a place that's got hedges around it and where you can't see the door. You'll go for a corner house where you've got hedges and can't be seen. [speaker007:] Mm, [Paul:] So w the thing is we don't want to be seen. [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] Right so the first thing we, as a crime prevention officer, we, well I look at anyway, is surrounding areas of a house that can't be seen from the road. Is there any hedges there that restrict the view to the house? Now the choices, I mean you'll have to look at, think about your house and so you can, is, is my house easily seen from the road or not? If it isn't then you've gotta make a choice of whether you want to be private or whether you want to run the risk of someone using it as cover. And it's, that's your choice. The, I would generally advise that you try and keep it fairly trim at the front. So that people can see the windows and doors. If anybody's having they'll hopefully report it. Especially now you're the Neighbourhood Watch. The other thing we talked about is er whether people are in or out. The most of would go for a house where people were out, not in. I think that's straightforward, because if there was someone in they would report you straight away. You're risking getting caught again. Erm and we're, we're not physical people are we? We're not going to actually try and grapple with someone, we just want in and out with some valuable stuff. You brought up the special point there, really that, that when someone's watching football match I think you said there are occasions where people do go into houses er that's usually through a door that's left open. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] So it's, if you're in, you've still got to think about security and you ought to be locking your doors, if you can. Erm. So what we need to do is keep the front trim. There's not much we can do with being in or out the building or is there? I mean if we're out at work, we're out at work or if w we've gone out shopping or something like that. I mean has anybody ever delivered anything to houses? Gone canvassing or or, or [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] anything like that? I was at a meeting with er Kenneth Clark, name-dropper [LAUGHTER] Just happened to be there and he, he, he was telling the meeting that when he's canvassing, going door to door, he, he knows as soon as walking up the drive whether there's someone in or not. And I've, I've done that and it, there's not one thing you can point to and say there's no one in here because it's several things, altogether, that indicate it, it might have been there's no car on the drive, there might've been, there might've been milk still out. That's easy, easy one that. Er and it might be that er there's a space there where a caravan looks as though it used to stand. You don't actually have to know there's a caravan, it's quite obvious when you've had one move it away. Might be that [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] your grass is a bit long. It might be that everyone's wheely-bin is out except for that particular house. Several things that make you think that there's no one in there. So if we can do something that may trick the would-be burglar into thinking there's someone in, then he may well go somewhere else. I mean if you, you're the burglar now and you're planning to break in a house, and you're looking around at the different houses and you're trying to, one of the many things you're trying to do is to establish whether they're in or out. Then if, if it looks as if they are in, you just go to the next one and look at that, you know what I mean? [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Erm right somebody said something about dogs and burglar alarms. [Lyn:] I wouldn't go where a dog was. [Paul:] You couldn't go was er I'm not going to recommend that everyone should go out and buy a dog. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] It's unfair on the dog, if you don't want one then you don't want one. Er if you want a dog as a pet, that's fine,i it will help. Sometimes though dogs only bark when people are in the house, they protect the person, the owner, rather than the building. There's nothing to stop you putting a sign on the gate saying Beware of the dog. Even if you haven't got one. The oth o o one other thing, er [Dave:] I thought that was illegal [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] Illegal? [Dave:] Yeah. That's why they brought these things out with dog's head on, I live here. [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Paul:] No, no, no that's not legal to put [speaker002:] ... [tape change] [Paul:] Well I'm take him to test on that [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] that there's no [Dave:] Well he just pointed out to me he was on, I mean it wasn't it wasn't for any reason it was just a [Paul:] Yeah but [Dave:] even have a dog any more, but they used to have a dog, and of course [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dave:] they left it up. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dave:] And he said no, buy a badge now with a dog's head on depending on the breed of dog you've got, and it says on it I live here. [Paul:] No, there's nothing, you can put any sign up as long as it doesn't [Lyn:] Rottweiler. [Paul:] as long as it doesn't lead anyone into any kind of danger. I mean it's not likely to in fact the opposite is true. [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Er another thing that I mean thought, somebody told me about the other day er it's an old thing is er gravel drives. [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [Paul:] Any body here [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] Yeah. That sort of illustrates a point that also, you as criminals wouldn't [speaker002:] Mhm. [Paul:] particularly want to be heard either. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Is that right? So when you break in a house you don't, you don't want to be heard you don't want to be seen. [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] Is there anything else that would put you off breaking into a house? You've walked up the drive, there's no sign, there's no dogs no burglar alarms. You can't be seen from the road, is there anything else that might put you off? [speaker010:] These lights [speaker002:] Camera. [Paul:] Pardon? [speaker010:] Lights that come on. [Paul:] There might, yeah. [speaker002:] Anything [Paul:] They can be quite startling, erm we haven't really established whether we're going at night or day properly, have we? We had a bit of a mixture, some would go at night and some at day. The important thing about night and day, most burglaries happen in the day time. Now that when most people are out. That makes sense [speaker002:] people are in [Paul:] Having said that [Dave:] You create less suspicion during the day. [Paul:] Sorry? [Dave:] You're less suspicious during the day [Paul:] You can be less suspicious, yeah. Cos there's a lot of movement lot of movement about. The reason people go at dark is to, they can go under cover of dark and, cos they don't want to be seen. But the, you know it's two o'clock in the morning and police car's coming through the village and see someone at that time, they're quite likely to stop and ask them what they're doing. The other thing is it's e it's easy to find out whether someone's in, in or out [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Why's that? At night The lights, yeah. [Jan:] Curtains drawn. [Lyn:] Mm. [Paul:] So we're already, there's, there's people, if we're going at night time we're going to go for houses without lights on. [speaker007:] You don't always [Lyn:] I know when we go out we leave our lights on. [Paul:] Yeah okay. [Lyn:] We put all the lights on and draw the curtains when we're going to go out. Say we went out [Paul:] Yes. [Lyn:] at four o'clock and we weren't likely to come back till later. and the curtains are drawn. [Paul:] Yeah. [Lyn:] You see? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] leave an empty. [Paul:] No, but you do that for the reason [speaker007:] Yeah [Paul:] just [speaker007:] yeah. [Paul:] make people think you're in. [speaker007:] you're in, yeah. [Paul:] So if there's a burglar then, he'll probably be put off by I mean if he really wanted to break into any particular house for a reason, you, you might approach it, but if you haven't got th no firm house in mind you've several houses and there's one house without any lights on at all and it was night time, you may well go for that one first. Think we've all got the right idea. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Hope it doesn't turn to crime [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] There is another good way to find out whether there's anybody in you know ain't there? [speaker002:] Telephone. [Dave:] does so and so live here, you [speaker002:] No [Dave:] say no you've got the wrong [Paul:] That does happen. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] That does happen. Not very often. Er what we're trying to do really is to try and stop the opportunis opportunist thief. Erm most burglars [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] opportunist [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] burglaries. There's not many people er do observations, or case the joint as you say. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Happens, but they do try and go for bigger takings, I mean they'll not break into my house it won't be worth all that worth. It'll be a lot easier to go to work it's less, less hassle. Er so that. See opportunist they, they will not have a particular house in mind, they'll have, they'll just walk round till this one strikes them. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Paul:] The mind, examine the way you, that you've done erm if you sort of apply that to your own house, you can actually cut down the chances of a burglary happening to you. Er I mean i it was done very well. The experiment's worked quite good, I was quite amazed. Quite common sense. Er burglar alarms. Is there anybody who would risk breaking into a house with a burglar alarm? [speaker002:] No. Wouldn't risk [Dave:] Not burglar [Selwyn:] not unless you know all about the wiring and you could take it off yourself. [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] So even if they weren't in and you to knock on the door, the burglar alarm would stop you? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Paul:] Well it's bound to Yeah. [Dave:] wiring about it and you can take it off. [Paul:] Right. [Dave:] Cos look at I mean in our street, our area alarms going off. There've been smoke alarms [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] people still [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Well if if, if you were on a street then, if you were a burglar and there's a house there with a burglar alarm on [speaker009:] Ah, but do you know whether it's a burglar alarm or a smoke alarm? [speaker002:] Yes [Paul:] What from the? [speaker009:] From passing. Anybody going by. Do you know whether it's a burglar alarm or a smoke alarm? [speaker007:] Only when it's ringing. [speaker009:] Yes. [speaker007:] Well, I mean it's a bell isn't it? [speaker009:] Pardon? [speaker007:] Th s er er burglar alarm's a bell. [Dave:] There's different sorts. Th there's different sorts and different sorts [speaker009:] Is that [Paul:] I don't know what you mean wh what are you t when you're talking about smoke alarm, what do you mean exactly? [speaker009:] Well [Paul:] Do you mean a bell on the outside of the house? [speaker002:] No. [speaker009:] I'm talking about inside bells now. It's inside. I mean they open the door and bell can go inside can't it? Just alarm. [Paul:] Yeah. Right, so if we're talking about burglar alarms with the bell box on the outside of the house. Erm that would put most of you off. But [speaker009:] If the wiring's running outside the outside the person [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Well could it er British Standards say that wiring shouldn't be external so we're okay there. [speaker009:] Right, British Standard, yeah. [Lyn:] Well isn't there a way there pushing chimney? [Paul:] Down a chimney? [Lyn:] Yeah, [Paul:] W in the box? [Lyn:] In the bo on the box to stop it from [Paul:] Ye well it can be done, yeah. [Lyn:] Yeah. [Paul:] You know, you know [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Yeah but i it has been done that, but [speaker001:] Oh they it at the Spar, weren't they? The other morning at half past two. [speaker007:] I know. [speaker001:] rang for the police. And but they'd go gone. [Paul:] Yeah it can be done. It can yeah. [speaker001:] That's what they're doing put [Paul:] It's er a kind of foam that they use for insulation. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [Paul:] It's in an aerosol. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Paul:] Er the the [Lyn:] The dam the [Paul:] That's right. [Lyn:] Mm. [Paul:] But the er but it can't be done on modern alarms now because the bell boxes they use are anti-foam and they probably have two or three alarm boxes. And the, the. The criminals find their way round something and then the, then the alarm companies stop it from happening. Now the alarm companies are always one behind but er if we're talking about houses, not many burglars would try a, a house with an alarm. Now you, you could in theory just put a bell box on the house to put people off. Er if you were a fairly decent criminal though you, you may well have a look through the windows to see if you can see any detectors on the wall, just to confirm it, because by now you'd be thinking that a lot of these are dummies. [speaker009:] Aye look at, look at the hall over in village. and they when the main street. Some time or other you hear that court bell ringing don't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] Do you know whether it's a fire alarm or not? Nobody knows [speaker002:] No. [Paul:] Oh you hear it, it's rung for as much as twenty minutes while I've been walking round. [Lyn:] Or the shops in [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but you don't do anything about it. [Paul:] Okay then so [speaker009:] Just along those [speaker001:] If it's a fire bell, tell me ring the fireman If it's a, an alarm [Paul:] Well I, I'll talk about [speaker001:] continuously [Dave:] no real point then, putting a bell box on. Not having alarm so you put a bell box on. [Paul:] Just a bell box. [Dave:] What with some villains that will only go to houses with something like that, because they think, they see that you've got something worth having. [Paul:] Well I've heard [Dave:] Otherwise you wouldn't have it. [Paul:] I've heard this quite a lot, it's a, it's a common [Dave:] It depends what kind of burglar you're talking about. I mean the days of the black mask and blue and white jersey have gone. It's designer suits and bloody [speaker007:] Stocking [Dave:] these days. [Paul:] I've not known [Dave:] I mean you can't tell a burglar [Paul:] I've not known many burglars break into houses with alarms systems. [Lyn:] No I don't er [Paul:] And this, this comment about that they think you've got something in the house worth pinching doesn't really come into it. But some, some will say that in bravado. If you worked for the probation service you'll know [Dave:] Yeah well that's what it is [Paul:] Well I [Dave:] burglar alarm cost a, the whole system costs a lot of money to set up, so if you've got in here it's not going to put that expense to set that up. [Paul:] Well actually I think they're very cheap, burglar alarms, they're about three hundred and fifty four hundred pound. When you think about the wiring involved, and the, the hours it takes to put one in I think that they're good value for money. [Dave:] Hmm. [Paul:] It's about the same price as a video. [Dave:] Oh they've come down in price from when I'm talking about, when they first come first out, they were quite a lot, a lot more [speaker007:] I reckon the easiest way [Dave:] expensive than that. [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker007:] and I would do it is to go during the day, knock on somebody's door and pretend I'm selling something. And then say I want to go to toilet and then I should pinch something [Paul:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker007:] And it's done. [speaker002:] unless they wanted to get [speaker007:] And then you could be going in [speaker009:] It's just a deterrent the same as what's on cars. [Dave:] Yeah. [speaker009:] Only a deterrent isn't it? [Paul:] Well they will, they will if they really want to get in. What what I'm saying if you, if you put yourself in the position of a burglar, and y you're already, you've done it, you're already making choices. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] You're already saying I'm not doing that one because [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [Paul:] I would do a house like this. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [Paul:] Well what you've got to do now is think about your own house and in the same way you've just thought about it and say what is there about my house that would attract somebody to try and break into it. And then think how can I stop that from happening. Now the burglar alarm's probably the, the biggest thing, but we can't all afford the, I mean I haven't got one and I'm a crime prevention officer, I mean by rights I should have one but I haven't. So it, it won't suit everybody, you might not want, in my case I don't particularly want to live with a burglar alarm. Er because you have to switch them on and off and all this business. I'm, I'm sure I'd change my mind if I was burgled. The very next day I'm sure there'd be er someone round our house putting one up on the wall S s so w if we use the same thing that we've just done on our own house and say how can we stop it from happening, might not get a burglar alarm. It might, it might be though cutting the hedges back a little bit. It might be doing things at night time, leaving the lights on, to make it look as though you're in. Drawing curtains. If you're away on holiday and can't do that getting a neighbour to do it for you, to look after your house, shut the curtains at night and opening them during the day. Er it might be putting a sign up on the, on the fence saying beware of the dog, it might be having a gravel drive. Er it might be having someone making sure the out of the way, to make sure it looks as those there's mil that there's someone in, in or out the house. Some people even leave radios on in the house, so that there's not only the light on, but if somebody does walk up the drive intending to knock on the door to test it, before they get to the door they can hear a noise, they turn around and go back. It might be having lights on like you mentioned. [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] So when someone walks up with the intention of breaking in a light comes on, I mean at one time, it's not the same now, but at one time when these lights with the detectors first came out, nobody actually knew whether they were switched on or not. People had gone up to a house and been knocking on the door waiting for someone to come because the light had come on and they thought there must be somebody in because they switched the light on when they saw me come up the drive, and these are visitors. So it might put, might have put some burglars off, that's not the same case nowadays cos they're so common. But the thing is if you're walking up er the driveway of a house, you don't want to be caught and you don't want to be seen and you, you think you're under cover of darkness and then the big halogen floodlight comes on, puts you in a spotlight next door. So we're all, we're all thinking very well as criminals. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Er it's just a matter of swapping it round now and thinking about your own home and i like you mentioned, it's not, if you are in you're, you're, you're still likely to be, well not likely, you still could be er targeted and the burglar who just opens a door and reaches in and takes [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] something. [Lyn:] Yeah, yeah. [Paul:] So it's important to keep doors locked. The only thing you haven't mentioned is, is locks on doors yet [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] er and I'll just run through this for about five minutes and then any questions and we'll go. But if you c if there's a burglar who got to the house, [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] you've selected your house and everything's okay. How would you break in?... What's the best way in? Door? Window [speaker009:] Glass cutter. [Paul:] You use a glass cutter. [speaker009:] nine times, nine times out of ten the, the er door the back door or the front door has got a great big pane of glass on top of it. [Paul:] Yeah. [Lyn:] Is the top, I mean I broke, had to get in my own house when I locked myself out once when I'd been in the garden and I, I just got in by leaning through the top window and opening the bottom window, so now I always lock the bottom windows, I don't bother locking the top one I open it [Paul:] So you've got locks for the windows? [Lyn:] So I lock the bottom window. Yeah. So that if even if they reach through they're going to have to break the lock just to get in. [Paul:] So if you were a criminal then you would look for an open window to reach through t to open another window? [Lyn:] To reach in yes I wouldn't I couldn't [Paul:] Yeah. [Lyn:] do it. I, I [Paul:] You'd use a glass cutter in the door? [speaker009:] Mm. [Paul:] Or a window, would you use it on? [speaker009:] Pardon? [Paul:] Would you use a glass cutter in a window? Or just a door? [speaker009:] Yes, if necessary yes. It's a er it's a means of getting in isn't it? [Paul:] Why would use a glass cutter and not just smash the window? [speaker009:] Well it so much noise doesn't it? [speaker001:] noise [speaker002:] I'm not [speaker009:] Just scratch [Paul:] Yes. [Selwyn:] All you want to do is, all you wanted to do just strike it in middle of glass go round it just [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jan:] I lived in my house for going on for a year before I realized that all you had to do was put your hand through my letter box, reach up and you could take, open the Yale lock because I'd been there a year I locked myself out and I thought the only thing I can do is try and get in by putting my hand through. It was as easy as anything, and for a long time I, I felt well at least I can get in that way and then I thought oh maybe I should, you know doing, doing anything about it, but now I always go out of the other door [Paul:] Yeah. [Jan:] and bolt that one because I don't want anybody to be there when I get back. I don't mind if they've been, but if they're waiting or [Paul:] [LAUGHTER] It's, it's funny because we, we were having this conversation before we came in weren't we? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] Er someone tells him that, a policeman tells him the best way to look at it is if you were locked out your house [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] y your key's in the inside, how would you get in? Yeah I mean [speaker007:] You're not supposed to leave your key in anyway. [Paul:] Well no but er I think we're, we've all got an idea how we'd get into our own house if we were locked out. [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Well I haven't really because I've got double glazing. [speaker002:] Yeah. Well I couldn't get in my house cos I'd have to undo [Paul:] You could really get in most houses if you really wanted [speaker007:] If I locked my door at night, I was to take the key out, never leave the key in never leave the key in [speaker002:] Mine's got [Selwyn:] Mine's locked and I've got a chain on as well. [speaker009:] Mine's [Paul:] Right. [speaker009:] My wife will er at night time she locks all the doors, she takes all keys out. [Jan:] Yeah, you're supposed to do it. [speaker009:] She takes all key out. piece of paper shove a key out, pull it out. [hand clap] [Jan:] That's it. [Paul:] I've still, I've, I've actually [Dave:] something that's even more stupid than that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] I've got two back doors, there's a storm porch and the door to the house and they're both locked and bolted. I've even got five lever mortise locks. [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] We've got two dogs, we've got double glazing, and the front door's got a five lever mortise lock. [Paul:] Yeah. [Dave:] And we've got no hedge on. We've got out back, it's all sheltered, next door's got more for years to put them down the front, my wife won't let me for the same reason she says if you blind yourself then any bugger can come in. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dave:] But our front door is never locked. There you are. We go to bed and I say, you locked the front door? [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Mm. [Paul:] Could [Dave:] But I don't think they'll get in, as I say there's two dogs [speaker009:] I'm always first in bed at night, all those windows. [Paul:] Can I [speaker009:] Twenty minutes later she [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] A lot of people point in, it's quite important that you, you made when you said using glass cutter erm and you said about reaching through open windows. And I asked why wouldn't you break a window and you said noise. Is there any, any other reason you can think of why somebody wouldn't break a window? [Dave:] Why you wouldn't break a [Paul:] Why you wouldn't break a window to break a window, why you'd go to the trouble of using a glass cutter [speaker001:] If you broke a window you could cut yourself, [Paul:] Yeah yeah, that's about it really. In my experience and er it's backed up by research, a burglar will, will only break glass if it, if they can reach through to open a window, in much the same way that [Lyn:] Mm. [Paul:] you would look for an open window. [Lyn:] Mm. [Paul:] Er they don't particularly like to make a, a noise, but some, some do if it's quick. If someone has to break a window and knock out all the glass it makes even more noise. I mean it's falling on the floor. Erm so if they do something with, with windows that makes them actually the, the open way they can break in is to break all the glass out, and the way you would do that is to fit a window lock. So even if they made a little, if they've got the glass cutter, made a little round hole then reached, still couldn't get the window open they'd be forced to break the whole lot and make more noise. Er they can be quite effective. [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] It's only a little thing, putting window locks on, on, on, you wouldn't buy a house now without a lock on the door, but a lot of people still buy houses without locks on the windows. I'm afraid that, you know, those days are limited. Eventually we'll all have locks on windows [speaker007:] fully insured are you? For burglary if you haven't got locks on [Paul:] Well [speaker007:] your windows. [Paul:] with certain of the, the insurance companies, that's true, yeah er it's always worth checking. I've got to mention insurance, cos now you're in the Neighbourhood Watch you get a discount on your house contents. So next time your insurance is due, tell them that you're in the Neighbourhood [speaker002:] Mm. [Paul:] Watch. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] Any sort of final comments anyone? Er er I don't think after going through everything we've said, I think we've all got the sort of ideas that we could all make good criminals, er we know what to do. If we know what to do we can all look at our own houses and decide how we can alter them in not too expensive ways to make it a bit harder for the criminal. Erm and r really that's all crime prevention's about. It's all about looking after your house is about, using the neighbours, using the knowledge you've got to make it more difficult. Any [Jan:] When, when this was first suggested erm was couple of questions came back and Selwyn and I spoke about it, was the fact that w are there or would there be any recriminations for people who kind of belong to any Neighbourhood Watch, like a brick through a window or, or, because anybody who saw erm that programme on television [speaker002:] [cough] [Jan:] a fortnight, Esther Rantzen, and Neighbourhood Watch was mentioned. [Paul:] Was that, was a in the front garden? Was that [Jan:] I only came into the room and I switched it on and i there were quite a lot of recriminations with people who [Lyn:] Yeah it were Manch was it Manchester? [Paul:] I don't know I just watched a clip [Lyn:] And she said you're nothing but a load of old busybodies and how dare you and oh the language. Because [Paul:] Yeah. [Lyn:] these people actually set up a Neighbourhood Watch and you know any reason [Dave:] Well you shouldn't get that where we are [Lyn:] It wasn't [Dave:] everybody was in agree I mean all them were all in agreement. [Lyn:] Yeah it wasn't a very good part [Dave:] Everybody agreed [Lyn:] of Manchester it was [Dave:] Yeah. [Lyn:] an awful part of Manchester. [Dave:] Erm [Paul:] Yeah it's it certainly is an issue that would er worry a lot of people in a [Jan:] Yeah. [Paul:] inner city. [Dave:] next door. [Lyn:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Exactly that's [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Er which is better place big window [speaker002:] as far as I can see. [Paul:] Not in the big window? [speaker009:] No [Paul:] Why? [Dave:] sign their names and [Jan:] Mm. [speaker002:] everything. [Jan:] Yeah. [Dave:] There'll be no having said, next [Paul:] It's a deterrent, [speaker007:] ignore it they think it, that it's just they [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker007:] ignore it don't they? They don't do anything [Dave:] Yes especially cos you don't know what it's for half the bloody time, she doesn't know where she is. [speaker009:] She ignores you whatever [Paul:] Right erm [speaker009:] she just [Dave:] Well that makes [Paul:] Can I, can I sort wind? I've given you these [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] green books. Er they go into crime prevention in, in a fairly big way. Have a read through them at your leisure. Er the blue book is just a guide for yourselves as cos Neighbourhood Watch members. And stickers are for the windows. Do take some more for your neighbours people who couldn't be here today. Er distribute them round. The thing about the Neighbourhood Watch is that everyone in the area is a member whether they really want to be one or not to be honest. Er just living in it makes them a member. I mean there's no, there's no fee or anything like that involved, so the fact that you're all seen as members will cut down on any recriminations you might have. I don't think that's a real threat in Farnsfield to be honest. The worst we've had recrimination-wise with Neighbourhood Watch schemes, is some people bend the signs and spray, spray paint them but I think you could live with that. Er but I, I don't think that'll happen in Farnsfield. You never know,some somebody walking home from the pub one night with a bit too much, too much to drink might just bend the sign. But that happens to all street signs, [Lyn:] Mm. Mm. [Paul:] occasionally. It's just that it does som sometimes seem temptation. Right erm I, I do wish you well with your scheme [Jan:] Thank you. [Paul:] Er you've got a lot of work to do if this is got here tonight, er just s spread the word, tell them it's not as bad as they probably think it is, there's no patrols needed or anything like that. And er I'd like to sort of thank Jan on your behalf and all the other people for taking the trouble to, to organize this scheme and get things rolling because it, it will be a little financial benefit to you when you renew your insurance, so thanks for that, Jan. And er, unless there's any last questions I think that's about it. [Dave:] No I want to get back to see the sheep at nine o'clock. [LAUGHTER] [Jan:] Thanks ever so much for coming in [speaker002:] [background to following] [Paul:] That's alright, I've en I've enjoyed [Jan:] I'm just sorry that a few more people didn't turn, at least there's more [Paul:] Yeah. [Jan:] than two. [Paul:] To be to be honest i I, I, it's been, the presentation I've given tonight has been slightly different, it's the first time I tried it and it was really successful. [Jan:] Mm. [Paul:] I don't know how you felt about it. [speaker002:] [background to following] [Paul:] do that with two hundred people [Jan:] No. [Paul:] in the [Jan:] No. [Paul:] Er it has to be a small group. Er [Dave:] It's not the fact we live on a council estate, more likely to have No it's not fact that normal go up the private estates, this is probably your first time on a council estate, the bloody hell it's come from. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I know [Paul:] Actually I checked out all about [speaker002:] [cough] [Paul:] who was walking down to the telephone kiosk and asked all the questions about the area so that I [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Well [speaker007:] you know. [Dave:] anyway that. [Paul:] Yeah they are. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Yeah. [speaker009:] I was in the Lion, fortnight ago, Sunday dinnertime and lads had been on this er bike ride, you know for some children [Paul:] Mm. [speaker009:] They parked their two bikes outside the round door over at the Lion, came in, one ordered two drinks and he said I'll just nip across to phone. Alright, come back and the had gone. [hand clap] [Dave:] aren't they? I mean there's a shop just here agri erm does agricultural machinery and repairs and that. He gets broken into regular. [Paul:] Mm. [Dave:] Yeah, gets broken into regular, cigarettes and booze. [Paul:] Well when I was here they were dealing with somebody er for stealing salmon out of [Dave:] Yeah the Co-op. [Paul:] Co-op. [Dave:] Yeah, yeah. [Paul:] And that was a real [Dave:] Oh it happens regular down this [speaker009:] Oh well that's because [LAUGHTER] nobody takes any notice about [] [Paul:] That, that was, that was a real big job, the salmon thefts, it were quite funny, they were going in all sorts of shops, just stealing salmon. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paul:] That's all they stole. The, the salmons were expensive I didn't realize how expensive it was. [speaker001:] wee you see that they, they lost a lot of [Paul:] Yeah well this before. [Jan:] big display up of salmon, you know he took [Lyn:] allowed to take as much as you can. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] [chairs being stacked]

[speaker001:] Are you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [cough] Well that's what I've er she said I've got to come and see you first. [speaker001:] Oh I see, right, that's fine, yeah. Right, let's have a look, whereabouts is it? [speaker002:] I've got two actually... There's one there.... [speaker001:] Ee. It's er, yeah that should be fine, we shouldn't have any great problem with that. Yeah, the other one? [speaker002:] The other one is this high, that's a... [speaker001:] Yeah, well we could do the same with both of those. They're both, they're both, neither of them are actually warts, okay? They're both rather fleshy skin tanks. [speaker002:] Skin tanks. [speaker001:] There's two ways of doing this, you can either put some local anaesthetic in and actually burn them off, but that often leaves a bit of a scar. Or you can actually try freezing them to kill them and then they just drop off on their own. And that's [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] probably the neater mes method of the two. And certainly the easiest for you. Erm I'd probably give it a go on freezing first, the only thing about the freezing is sometimes it doesn't work first time. But that'd be the tidiest thing for you. And we [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] can get that set up. Now I'm actually, there isn't another session now until the week after next, cos I'm actually away next week. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er er but then we'll have more sessions booked in, we can just slot you in to one of those I should think. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] There's someone away all August but I'm actually going to try to keep the sessions going, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] cos there's actually quite a demand for them. [speaker002:] Yeah. Well I'm away [speaker001:] So [speaker002:] er twenty second of August again so [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] er what will you do, let me know? Or [speaker001:] No, what we'll do is go and actually get you booked in. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] So twenty one, where are we? Twenty first, so if we got you booked in for that. Follow me. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Follow me. As I said we may not have a set up but if we haven't we'll set one now.

[speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] ooh. Do have a seat Mrs anyway, what can I do for you today? [speaker002:] Well it's this damn cough and cold get. [speaker001:] Still coughing? [speaker002:] I've had it since just before Christmas and it keeps going and coming. [speaker001:] Mm. Are you coughing anything up with it? [speaker002:] No I can't I, I heave with it but I can't get nowt up. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] I made myself some medicine, some er honey, glycerine and apple cider vinegar. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's an old remedy but I think [speaker001:] But it still hasn't worked? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Let's have a look. [speaker002:] Nothing's worked. [speaker001:] Now open wide for me, that's fine. Say ah. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] Stick your tongue right out.. Good. Right let's have a quick listen, I think what we're going to need to do is to get a chest X- ray, even if your chest is fairly clear, I still suspect it's the hernia that's drying things up. bit cold. Nice deep breaths... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Clear at the front and your heart sounds fine too. Deep breaths again, that's fine. [speaker002:] Oh breathing hard, I go ever so dizzy. [speaker001:] Oh I'm sorry.. Breathe a bit more gently then if you wish.... That's fine, your chest actually sounds absolutely clear. [speaker002:] So what can it, what can it be cos it's worrying [speaker001:] Don't know. [speaker002:] me. [speaker001:] Something, somewhere is irritating either the lungs or the airway or the back of the throat. Well in fact the back of the throat looks fine. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] The lungs sound clear, so it's probably the airway. And if you get a hernia, hiatus hernia, with acid [speaker002:] Yeah well I got that's what I have got one. [speaker001:] That's right. And you have acid coming up the gullet, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it can irritate the airway too and you can cough because of hiatus hernias. No the important [speaker002:] There's no way I can, I don't [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] hiatus hernias. Don't [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] they ever go? [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] themself or anything? [speaker001:] They don't go by themselves, the problems they cause can go, but that's a bit different. What we need to do to start off with is to look at your chest in greater detail, get a chest X-ray. If that's clear we then need to go back and attack the hiatus hernia with more erm, but we'd better get your chest sorted out first. [speaker002:] Should have gone in hospital last Monday to have me hand done. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And I'm going on holiday on Saturday. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] So er, er it were daft weren't it? Going and having it done and then going on holiday. to keep going and everything.... [speaker001:] That's alright. Now if I give you this you can actually go along at your own convenience, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so you can go before you go on holiday, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] or in fact you can go afterwards. If, you know where the Victoria Hospital is? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Now called Mansfield Community? [speaker002:] Yes, yes, [speaker001:] If you if you nip down there you can go any day Monday to Friday, you can go any time between nine and four thirty, you've just got to remember to take your lunch. [speaker002:] tomorrow because I'm at me mam's tomorrow at [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mansfield and I can go when I come back from me mam's about three o'clock. [speaker001:] Perfect. [speaker002:] And I get the results for when I come back then. Won't I? [speaker001:] Yeah. That's right. Okay, so let me just write that on the back, Monday to Friday and that's nine to four thirty. If you go there it's easier to get to. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. That's the next step we st we may need to treat your tummy with something else after that but I think that's rather go going to depend on what the chest X-ray shows, and how you feel. You may find after goi coming back from holiday there's nothing wrong with you, so er [speaker002:] Yeah but I mean I've had it since your fortnight before Christmas on and off. [speaker001:] Yeah, I know, yeah. [speaker002:] It's driving me blooming mad. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's driving Derek mad as well, and I've got right down from about, what? Twelve fifteen cigarettes to four [speaker001:] Yeah,go you're doing well. [speaker002:] So, and I'm trying to stop altogether but [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I can't do it all in one [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] go. [speaker001:] You're [speaker002:] And [speaker001:] doing the right things though, so [speaker002:] You know it's not having this, this [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] You know here? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And even here, I've got it. I, I, do you know I wish, I just wish that I could explain how I feel, but I can't. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I'm trying to tell you how I feel in myself. All my bones feel as though they're seizing up. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's how I feel. I hurt I really hurt. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Here all up here, here in my arms I mean I had seven week physiotherapy on this arm, it's [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] no better now than [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] what it were when I started going. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's all, it dead, it's [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] it hurts. I wake up like it, I go to bed like it, I've got it all the time that I'm living with a bloody nightmare, all the time. And I don't think it's from that hand. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I don't, don't for a minute think it's from that hand, because you know the tingling, you're s are you supposed to get tingling all time? [speaker001:] You can do, yes. [speaker002:] Well I don't. [speaker001:] You can do. [speaker002:] I don't. [speaker001:] Not necessarily. [speaker002:] I it's these bones what hurt here. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] That's the main problem there. Th when I'm, I'm picking doing owt it hurt, really hurt. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's like as though I've in mangle. And this is like two day where I just aching, burning. You know I don't know what to do with myself sometimes. I can't sit and watch television, I can't knit. I sit and read and I'm tightening up like this and I [gasp] like that to sort of [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I'm always doing that, think I'm bloody daft when I do it, but it, it sort of releases tension. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I don't know what it is, but it oh it's carrying me down, I know that much and I have it for years and years. [speaker001:] Well there are one or two other things we can do to try and make you feel better er even if the, the hands aren't the principle cause er... I think we'll see what happens, work your chest out of the way first though. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'm certainly not going to er w to say let's give you a trial of this or a trial of that, until we know what's happened with your chest, so [speaker002:] Yeah, well I've b t to tell you honest truth, I've been on th I've been down that road. I've [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] been down that road, If you've got me on the records it'll show you. [speaker001:] Yes, we're short of [speaker002:] Cos I er I've just asked, they haven't found them yet. [speaker001:] No, we don't know where they've gone. [speaker002:] Cos I mean it tells you on there, I can't remember, it tells you on there every tablet I've had, all for this. To [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] no avail. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] They go here, they go here and they make me dizzy. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] They make me light-headed, they make me feel sick, they go to my stomach, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I'm bilious and they don't do anything for this [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] what I want to happen. [speaker001:] We, we need to watch what we give you because of your [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] hiatus hernia. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Anyway. Let's have you having a chest X-ray and have a holiday. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And then we'll have another look [speaker002:] Well, [speaker001:] when we come back. But your chest y [speaker002:] I've had an holiday [speaker001:] That's right. But your chest is, is sounding clear and I expect it's management of the hernia that's going to [speaker002:] Ooh, can I have a prescription for them tablets? [speaker001:] W the Sametadine Is [speaker002:] Yeah, I didn't actually take any [speaker001:] The ones I gave you last w yeah [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] I'm nearly out of them. In fact I, I don't think I am. Sometimes er do I have to take them all the time? I'm not sure about that. If I do if I don't feel this hernia, if I ain't got any indigestion, I don't take them. [speaker001:] I would for the moment, yeah, I would for the moment. [speaker002:] Yeah, just, just keep taking them, one in the morning and one at night? [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [speaker002:] Alright then. [speaker001:] And then we'll have a chat about that, as I said, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] when you're back from holiday. Now fatty food, alcohol, large meals, fizzy drinks [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] will all tend to upset your tummy. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So be a little bit cautious. But [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you are allowed to drink and you are allowed to splash out and you are [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] allowed to go and have sausage and chips at a caff [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] you know. Just be, just be [speaker002:] but drink in moderation. [speaker001:] a bit careful, yeah, [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] Right? [speaker002:] well I know I can't eat oranges, and I can't [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] eat orange juice [speaker001:] No. You'll find your own things [speaker002:] Yeah that's it, yeah. If I, and salad cream I can't e I can't even put salad cream on a salad [speaker001:] Oh dear. [speaker002:] because that upsets me and all. [speaker001:] Shame I like I like a bit of salad cream. [speaker002:] I know, yeah. I've tried mayonnaise and I've tried [door closing]

[speaker001:] The bad news they haven't arrived so, and that rather, it still [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] it still ties my hands, hands somewhat [speaker002:] I mean [speaker001:] because I received no further communication from anyone so [speaker002:] Erm I don't know if this would help, because, you know I'm, I, I said that. [speaker001:] Ooh a D S S book. [speaker002:] Yes that erm you know they wouldn't [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] actually give some money, well they've sent this, they've sent this letter so [speaker001:] still got a D S S book going so [speaker002:] No this is the o yeah, this is the one that they sent you see? When I [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] came to you and said, you know they won't send any money because I haven't got a note, but because you was a bit, you know, doctor's [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a bit suspicious. [speaker001:] Well you've got a book, so you can still actually er [speaker002:] Yeah, but you see they sent this on the twenty ninth of June [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but the thing is this doctor's note runs out yesterday, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] see, so I can't really cash any more, you know? [speaker001:] Why not? [speaker002:] Well because I haven't had a doctor's note and it makes it a bit difficult if I cash it. [speaker001:] But they would have only given you a book for [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] that long, if you had a valid doctor's note for that time, surely? [speaker002:] No, no. You have to get another one, you see. It doesn't work like that. I mean that's some proof, I mean I [speaker001:] It's proof that someone's issued a book to you, yeah. I'm not quite, has, is th it gives no indication of why it's been issued, that's the catch. [speaker002:] Well, see these are the ones that I sent in and I didn't think they would, they would agree with because they were duplicates unless they found the original. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Do you follow? [speaker001:] No they won't accept duplicates as a rule. [speaker002:] Well they put those in anyway, so unless they found the original ones, [speaker001:] That's, that's two months and that keep [tongue-tied verbal babbling] that keeps you covered for a while, doesn't it? [speaker002:] But you see the thing is, that's true but sometimes the way they deal with it, they deal with it say eight weeks, so which makes it what? About sevent [speaker001:] Yeah, he's just put yeah he's just put depression. I mean how do you actually feel at the moment? [speaker002:] Well, I feel better than I was, but I've been at Haywoods Heath which was a religious community [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] and er I feel, I feel as though I'm generally [speaker001:] Mm. Aye. What about sleep patterns? [speaker002:] That's fine. [speaker001:] And mood during the day? [speaker002:] That's fine, not too bad.... [speaker001:] See if you're actually better medically [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you actually become fit for work. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Ah [LAUGHTER] in which case it'd be wrong for me to say that you're not fit for work anyway []. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] So er I mean if you, if you, you know, if you do feel you're looking better I mean you look, you know [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] fairly okay. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] So I mean if you, if that's how you actually feel then what we should really do is to sign a note at some stage saying you are fit for work on a certain date. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And er then what will happen is the benefit you receive will change from [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] erm sickness benefit or invalidity benefit depending [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] how long you've been off for, to unemployment benefit, if you're eligible. So I, and, and to be honest I think that's what we ought to do at this stage, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] if you remain fairly well. Now obviously [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] if how you are [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] changes, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] You know it's a different ball game [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and then we have to reassess you and say you're medically [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] unfit and then we sign you off. But then [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] also we ought to be treating it, are you not actually having any active treatment at the moment are you? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] You see... you see I don't mean to be erm rude or anything but as I'm sure you understand you can't really you know, you know write a note without my doctor's notes, because you see I, I think if I get a job at the moment I think it'll just, it won't last [speaker001:] No. Well I, I I could write a note on my own assessment, [speaker002:] Right yes [speaker001:] but I have got nothing to back up, it's a bit like [speaker002:] before you have the notes? [speaker001:] Oh I can, oh yes I can, I could [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] write a note treating [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] you as my own patient [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] on a, on how I find you at a particular time. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] But what I can't do is to look back and saying you've been, you are like this now but we know from your previous history, that this [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] is the course of events and perhaps it'd be reasonable to wait longer before we say you're fit for work. And I haven't got much evidence [speaker002:] You can't do that until you get the notes can you? [speaker001:] Well it's a bit i well I, well I could do but it's a bit tricky I mean to some [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] extent I'd be happy to keep you going for a bit longer. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] There's no. What I don't really want to do is to sign you off sick long term, without really knowing I mean [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] what's been happening before, what's been said [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to you, what's been given [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to you. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Exactly what sort of thing you've been in. And you can say some of [speaker002:] Yeah that's, that's what I [speaker001:] to me but I d I still, I don't get the same feeling from you as perhaps I might with medical notes, if you see what I mean? [speaker002:] Well I, I, no I agree [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] with you precisely [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I think that you can't really make a decision until you have that literature, you can't. [speaker001:] It's tricky. [speaker002:] But what I'm, what I'm, is because you've got this order book [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and these, you know things from the benefits er agency, because if I cash any more it makes it so I mean [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] what, you see I don't know when these notes are going to come up [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you see? [speaker001:] Well what I [speaker002:] And I need this cash. [speaker001:] Yeah. I mean what I suggest we do [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] given you're, given how you are at the moment, which [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] is probably not one hundred percent medically fit, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [cough] is to actually give you another note for the moment for say [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] erm where are we now? We're July, so if I say another six weeks, that'll actually get [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] us through to the first week of September. [speaker002:] Right, so these [speaker001:] And then [speaker002:] you can [speaker001:] and then have another chat. And if you are fairly okay then we'll probably say well we'll sign you off at this stage anyway. But [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] at least we'll have the notes to back up what we're doing, and I [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] think that'd be sensible. It'll [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] keep you ticking over for the moment which is what you need. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] And it'll erm, and I think that'll be reasonable. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is that okay? [speaker002:] That seems okay for now, yeah but [speaker001:] It's a sort of compromise [speaker002:] when you [speaker001:] decision but it is difficult to know which way to go, when you're actually up you know, I, I wouldn't say you're a hundred percent but I wouldn't say [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] there's anything too much wrong with you either. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Now what I've got to put a diagnosis on this, so if I write depression cos that has been the problem hasn't it? [speaker002:] Right, yes. [speaker001:] Yeah, is that fair enough? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And if I put six weeks, now this' ll overlap slightly with the present one, that doesn't matter the D S S don't give two hoots from that point of view, and that'll then run out six weeks, which is about the beginning of September [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] exactly. [speaker002:] But I, you know, I agree with this, thanks for the, writing the note, but [speaker001:] That's okay. [speaker002:] erm... especially that when you get those er notes from Haywoods Heath, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and then see what you think. But I mean I don't want to stay on the sickness but it is [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] invalidity. It's Sickness Benefit on your [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Income Support. So it's [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] exactly the same amount of money [speaker001:] Yeah, oh yeah. So you won't gain any extra, yeah. [speaker002:] not Unemployment Benefit, ordinary Income Support [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but, you know, when you get those notes if you could look at them and see what you think [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah I think they'll be informative. [speaker002:] Mm. Oh yes, yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. It's a question of getting them back, they haven't long gone but er [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] they will return, complete I hope. Okay. [speaker002:] Right. is that there's no point in, in er me going to work if it's going to just, you know, work out [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] so I'm just, you know, unemployed again. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But as I say, when you get those notes, if you really, you know, try and understand them so [sniff] you know [speaker001:] And if I can read the other doctor's handwriting. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Anyhow we'll sort that out in September, I'm sure they'll be there. We sent in an urgent request three [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] weeks ago for those and I'd be very surprised if they don't soon [speaker002:] Apparently they should be on their way because Nottingham was er [speaker001:] They should be. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] They should be. [speaker002:] Alright, thanks very much. [speaker001:] Right okay, take care of yourself.

[speaker001:] What shall I do with you then? [speaker002:] Well I, do you mean for me? [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] Well I, I've come for b blood pressure. those [speaker001:] Right, let's have a look, oh yes. That's right. [speaker002:] tablets you gave me [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] I, I don't want to see any more of them. [speaker001:] Oh dear I'm sorry to hear that. [speaker002:] After after a fortnight I couldn't walk up the street without stopping for a breather. [speaker001:] They made you short of breath? [speaker002:] Ooh terrible. [speaker001:] Right, okay. Oh dear. [speaker002:] And er I couldn't I mean I do a lot of gardening there were n no problems at all, so I took them t well you can see what's left. [speaker001:] So you've stopped them? [speaker002:] I took thirteen and I've got some of me old Diodide so went back on to them. [speaker001:] I, I think that was entirely the right thing to do, entirely the right thing to do. Well I'm sorry about that. [speaker002:] Every time I sat down I went to sleep. [speaker001:] Oh well, that's no good then is it? [speaker002:] And er, No. [speaker001:] Okay, let me check what it is today. It, I mean it has been going up rather high, this has been [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] a problem of course. Let [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] me see what it is and there's a chance it's actually down [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] Because of the Etenalol but er [speaker002:] [cough] But it's two [speaker001:] Let's have a look. [speaker002:] weeks since I took any of those. [speaker001:] Well it's certainly right that you ought to stop anything that makes you feel worse. And [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it's er [speaker002:] No pain at all [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] but you know, walking I've had to stop twice. [speaker001:] Well that's no use is it? That's what? [speaker002:] No apparent reason. [speaker001:] Okay, this' ll squeeze your arm a bit [speaker003:] [pumping] [speaker001:] Any ankle swelling or palpitations? [speaker002:] No I've nothing, any palpitations, nothing, I feel as fit as I did twenty years ago. I've got two great I do, I'm always cycling I never, very seldom ride anyway on buses and I ain't got no car, no car. And I feel as tip-top, I can eat, I've no bowel trouble or nothing. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I can sleep, eat. [speaker001:] Good. [cough] Your blood pressure is still up, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] a bit. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's not up an awful lot but it is still up a bit. And I'm sure it'd be well worth er, er getting this down, no. Dies are you back on Diesiodinate doing the trick [speaker002:] Well I've been taking them yeah, [speaker001:] What I, what I suggest we do is we take this opportunity of having to review, to sort of have a complete overview and actually do, run a few er routine blood tests at this stage as well. Okay? I would erm... suggest what we do is we stop the Dieside and put in something else, you know, just to keep you on on I don't really want to have you on a combination of lots [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] of drugs. [speaker002:] No, no. [speaker001:] I'd rather just have you on one preparation and then we see what happens. Now the question is, what is erm going to be the most suitable for you?... Hmm. I think what we'll do... is try this, which is called Doxazocin there you go, that's an instantly forgettable name for you. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. Mm. [speaker001:] Okay, but it does have the advantage in it, it's a has it's a very clean drug. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's a very clean, so side effects are very very rare, that's right,... [writing] Now we, I'm going to give you two sizes, cos you need to start on the lower dose first. [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] And what I would do, have you had your Dieside today? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Okay, doesn't matter, your blood pressure's still up. What I should do is take the first one tonight. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Because what new drugs can do is they can put your blood pressure down quite quickly. Which means if you're standing up, you [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] can get rather faint and wobbly. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So if you take the first one immediately before you go to bed, if your blood pressure does go down rather a lot, it doesn't matter cos you're lying down, you'll [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] be fine. And if you're okay, you can carry on taking one in the morning. [speaker002:] One in the morning [speaker001:] Okay? And the seven days at the low dose and then I'd like you to go onto the slightly higher dose, which is still a low dose, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] for the rest of the time. And then we can bri check your blood pressure back. So, if that's okay, that's what we'll do. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Stop the Dieside [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] take these back to the chemist, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and if you can see our practice nurse in a few weeks [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] okay, and then see me in about five weeks, [speaker002:] Right, okay. [speaker001:] something like that. Then we can [speaker002:] How will [speaker001:] have a look at the blood tests [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'll write down what I want her to do, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] we can have a look at the blood tests, we can see what the blood pressure is. If you have any side effects from the new ones, then you should come back straight [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] away. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But I think, I'd be very surprised if you do, so... so [speaker002:] Shall I know which is which in the tablets, [speaker001:] Yes they'll be clearly labelled. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mhm.... [speaker001:] And I think I'll ask her to do an electrical tracing of your heart, just for completeness as well, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think. Okay. Now then it's, isn't it?? [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. Well I've been on them Diodides for six year now. [speaker001:] Yeah I know, but your blood pr I mean they did d they were doing you very well but blood pressure does tend to rise, as you get older [speaker002:] Yeah yeah. [speaker001:] and I think that's what [speaker002:] Probably if it hadn't have been for Sister Helen and I would have never have been able to b catch the at all because I never came to see a doctor. [speaker001:] You d then we, we'd have er we'd have summoned you by now, don't worry. [speaker002:] You think so? [speaker001:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] Ah ah. I'm saying years ago my old dad, he, he were eighty nine and he never had a blood test in his life. [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] Pressure or anything. [speaker001:] if you go back even [speaker002:] You think I could have some of that I pu i m Melorose or something, for dry eyes. I, I have got it on the prescription I had to get it Doctor sent me to the hospital, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and there's nothing wrong with my eyes at all, they said dry. [speaker001:] Ju dry yeah I'll put one of those on for you. [speaker002:] Cos they're a bit irritable at night. [speaker001:] Yeah okay. If you only go back ten fifteen years, it wasn't realized fully how many problems are out there, [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] that don't cause people any symptoms until something happens and it's too late. [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker001:] Er that's becoming more recognized, which is why we do more routine things on people who appear fa yeah, it [speaker002:] Yeah, that's right,. So as you say years at I'm [speaker001:] No no, I mean [speaker002:] so ill because I couldn't afford it [speaker001:] No no. [speaker002:] but I [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well sometimes we overdo I think, but anyway. So there's, there's two sixes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] The little ones there's only seven of and that's [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] one a day. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] And I said, if you take the first dose tonight. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] I j write that, the first dose, dose tonight. [speaker002:] Tonight, yeah. [speaker001:] And then [speaker002:] If I take if I take one at night [speaker001:] after that, it's [speaker002:] have I to take another one in the morning? [speaker001:] If you're okay, yes, yeah. And if you feel completely weak and wobbly, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] then we better see you before you have any more. That has never happened [LAUGHTER] to me yet, first dose problems [speaker002:] No, no no [speaker001:] but it's something to be slightly aware of, so And if I can see, if you say you've had the blood test done in around, I dunno, two weeks, at your convenience and then if you see me in about five, which will be at the end of those, which [speaker002:] So arrangements to have a blood test then, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in about a fortnight? [speaker001:] Please, yes. Yeah. Okey-doke. [speaker002:] These, the chemist can have these back? [speaker001:] Yes, please, he can then dispose of them. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'm sorry about that but er is this yours? [speaker002:] Well I, I wondered. Yes, I [speaker001:] Yes, don't forget that. [speaker002:] I wondered what was going on really, because I mean it just at least I can take them [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. It's [speaker002:] got the wife worried, [speaker001:] It's not a common it isn't a common problem at all that. [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] Okay? [speaker002:] Yes,

[speaker002:] I dunno really, erm saw Doctor last week. [speaker001:] See if he's written, I doubt if he's dropped a line to me. Er seventeenth of June, so that's not last week's is it? No. [speaker002:] He said you were going to change me on the medication, [speaker001:] Right, well so he's done that has he? [speaker002:] Well I supp I imagine so, yeah. [speaker001:] I don't know what to though. Have you, you haven't got them with you? [speaker002:] Afraid I don't. [speaker001:] Oh that's a shame. [speaker002:] He [speaker001:] Oh he hasn't given you anything? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] He's letting me do that is he? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh well. Well the letter will arrive very shortly so, I'd be quite happy to do that without necessarily seeing you. So er we can write [spelling] [], his initials, is changing medication. [speaker002:] see me in three month time. [speaker001:] Right, did he mention anything else like angiograms or? [speaker002:] Er he mentioned going to Leicester. [speaker001:] Yeah, well that'll be the, what that's for, yeah. Ooh, I suppose i it, it's going to depend on how you respond to the change of medication. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But I don't know what it is yet, so er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Neither do I []. [speaker001:] I just have to wait for his letter, but I think the sensible thing to do would be to talk to you about what he's putting you on because a lot of these drugs are not without potential side effects. [speaker002:] That's right, [speaker001:] So that's something we will need to talk to you about before we just give you a prescription willy-nilly. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So now that's okay. Now I don't think er the other lot have seen you, have they? Over the past week or so. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No, that's okay. The Diasopan I think is still, are you about three a day? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. Now and you've just had another prescription for that haven't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah.... I mean you may find it's not very easy to cut it down further until [speaker002:] I must admit I've been taking [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] more, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because I have had a lot of hassle [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] with Carol and [speaker001:] Yeah.... Well I don't mind that I mean I, the er the overall amount is still much lower than you were [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and you are allowed to take the occasional extra, if it is only the occasional extra, [speaker002:] It is yeah. [speaker001:] I'm quite happy with that. I really don't mind. I, I still want to have the downward trend but I suspect until this is sorted out we're not going to get you off it altogether. And er and it is, your chest is potentially the more serious one of the two anyway, so [speaker002:] I went away for about five days, six [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] days. I went to the Norfolk Broads, and erm I think it was Saturday morning we went to have a look at a flat, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and it were like I don't know what had happened but [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I didn't feel very well. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] And something like hit me from the inside, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and my mate was behind me and he's a, he's a big lad, and he just caught me. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] And I'd gone. [speaker001:] Mm. How long did it take you for to come round? [speaker002:] Five or ten minutes. [speaker001:] Yeah. How did you feel when you came round? [speaker002:] Well I went to bed at er ten o'clock in the morning and I woke up at ten o'clock at night. [speaker001:] Mm. I mean it sounds more like a, a faint rather than anything with your [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] heart, but er let me just check your blood pressure this morning. Cos that, that has been a bit up and down, [speaker003:] [humming] [speaker001:] Could you just turn, thanks. It'll squeeze a bit, [speaker002:] ... [pumping] [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. Once again it's quite low an and er certainly if it dips much below where it is, you certainly can feel dizzy and faint, and of course the medication doesn't actually help that, which is one of the reasons why we need to [speaker002:] I feel so [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] lethargic, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and [speaker001:] Well some of that could be the tablets you're on. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure what he's suggesting we put you on. [speaker002:] Well I brought all the tablets along. [speaker001:] Yeah, let's see. Yeah. [speaker002:] Er [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I know it's quite a lot. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] There really are a lot here aren't there? Er there's the er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Chemical [] [speaker001:] Well the... yeah. Well the aspirin and the g The aspirin is essential and you've got to carry on taking that. [speaker002:] And I do take? [speaker001:] The G T N, you only take if and when they're necessary, okay? The Diasopan you're already cutting down, we know all about that. The Dithiopin er won't affect your blood pressure and you really need to stay on that as maintenance, cos there's a [speaker002:] I don't think I've got any of them left. [speaker001:] Oh no, they've just run out, yeah. I, I think you really should stay on those. If you stop them, you'll be fine initially but there's a fair chance you could actually get a lot worse without them. That's the catch, they won't affect your heart, your blood pressure or anything else. From that point of view you're fi that's fine. But they certainly will help you sleep. Mm. Let's put you back on those. And the erm ni the, the, the capsules and the er Nitrous Albide I expect are the ones he's going to change though the problem is exactly what to. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] I think, I think we have to wait for the letter, I suspect you'll probably find both those changed to some extent after that so er... I think we really have to wait for that. [whispering] seven ninety three []. Okay that's Dithiopin I think the answer to your question, can you get rid of them? Yes I'd love to get rid of a lot of them but I'm yo you have got two ongoing problems both of which need to be treated so I think to start er cutting things out could make you a lot worse.... Whereabouts was this flat? [speaker002:] Norfolk Broads. [speaker001:] Ooh whereabouts? [speaker002:] Er Marton. [speaker001:] Very nice. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Very nice indeed. It's a different sort of life out there, to some extent. [speaker002:] Twenty five pound [speaker001:] Blimey. [speaker002:] Absolute [speaker001:] Mm. Do you think you'll go? [speaker002:] Er I've got negative [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] equity in [speaker001:] No. Oh I see. [speaker002:] So if I haven't I'm going. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. It's a lovely place of the world to live. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I've actually been down to Norfolk this weekend so [speaker002:] You have? [speaker001:] Yeah. Heaterset which is near Norwich, we've got some friends living but er [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I, I worked in Norwich for a year and a half, so I actually know it. And my work, wife worked there even longer so we know the are area quite well. [speaker002:] Oh it's lovely. [speaker001:] It is, very nice. Mm. [speaker002:] I stay at my [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er we went to er the coast, what's it called, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] two miles away. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's lovely. [speaker002:] And magic. [speaker001:] Very relaxing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That's what you need every now and again. [speaker002:] And I was, I wa actually going to live down there. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] sell the house or whatever but er there's this pal of mine and er he's going on for, for ten years, [speaker001:] Oh, it happens, it happens. [speaker002:] That's cocked that up. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, well see how things go, what I would do is enquire in about a week whether that letter has come back and then we can arrange to see you. So I think we ought to have a chat about the sort of things he's putting you on, and then what side effects or anything you might get from those, but [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] we'll, we'll have to see. Fine idea but Okay? [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] take care, bye then.

[speaker002:] I do have a seat. [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] What can I do for you today? Oh yes. [speaker001:] I clinic on this blood test, [speaker002:] We did some blood tests, that's right. [speaker001:] We did. [speaker002:] That's right, because you had sugar in your wee and we thought we really must have a look at what we've got, your fasting blood sugar was absolutely fine, so that looks normal.... Had you had your breakfast that morning? [speaker001:] Yeah, erm [speaker002:] Good. [speaker001:] spot of, of er when? For the blood test you mean? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh yeah, no I had [speaker002:] So you'd had a big breakfast and it's still normal which implies you're going to be fine, now what we really need to do is keep an eye, if it looks like you keep leaking sugar out, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] we may have to do what's called a glucose tolerance test. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] I hope not, it's a real hassle to do, so [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm... er and it involves going to the lab and sitting around for about a couple of hours while they feed you a bit of sugar and then take some blood tests every half hour. But, but we've done er a completely normal random sample and that should be fine. So if it settles down, and you don't have any more next time, keep an eye on you as we normally do every few... [tonguetied babbling] Well we'll be seeing you fairly soon, won't we? We'll be seeing you in another two weeks anyway, won't we? Yeah. [speaker001:] Two weeks, yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. Well we'll have a chat about what you're like then, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] nice fresh sample of wee, not the first wee of the morning, [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] okay? But a nice fresh sample. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Okay. Have you got a bottle? [speaker001:] I have yes, thanks. [speaker002:] You've got your bottle? Yes [speaker001:] Yes I have. [speaker002:] make sure you wash it out. And then we'll see if, take things from there, is that okay? [speaker001:] That's fine, thanks [speaker002:] Great. [speaker001:] great news, thanks [speaker002:] Okay [speaker001:] very much. [speaker002:] and everything else [speaker001:] Yes, I'm a bit bum but er [speaker002:] Well [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] you're going to get bigger I'm afraid. [speaker001:] I've finished work, now so [speaker002:] Oh right. Okay. [speaker001:] Right then, [speaker002:] Right, [speaker001:] very much. [speaker002:] see you. [speaker001:] Bye. [speaker002:] Bye.

[speaker001:] Hello. [speaker002:] Hello. [speaker001:] Do have a seat, right what shall we do with you today? [speaker002:] I seem to have done something silly with my shoulder, it's awfully stiff and [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker001:] Which one? [speaker002:] This one. [speaker001:] Right, but you can't think what? [speaker002:] Well we were at a venture park on er Sunday and I reckon I probably did something on one of the rides without realizing it. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Cos it came on sort of about middle of the day. [speaker001:] Right, you haven't been from anything, or pulling anything too hard or? [speaker002:] N other than carry my daughter, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] since she's a bit of lump nowadays. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now, you don't need to take anything off. Can you lift it up, right up? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Pretty good, can you get it behind your, get your hand behind your neck? Turn it ro er okay. Can y [speaker002:] Can't feel it [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] can you turn it round and get it behind your back? Can you put your hand behind your back like that? Turn it round. Good okay. Can you, can you actually do that? Can you swing it right round so you can do that? [speaker002:] Y yeah I can. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You're not allowed to use that one []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay, good. Okay. So you've got a good range of movement, okay. [speaker002:] Yes, yeah. [speaker001:] What happens if you lift something or pull something? [speaker002:] I get a sharp stabbing pain. If I'm br even [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] when I'm breathing, [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] I can feel it in my, in my [speaker001:] Yeah, okay just relax. What I'm going to do is to examine now I'm going to go up the collar bone first... over the shoulder pad, [whispering] T-shirt with a shoulder pad []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I know, they went out with the ark, didn't they? [speaker001:] You okay over there? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Over the top? Good that's fine. Are you okay with the front of the joint, in there? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It's only in articulate areas, [speaker001:] I in the side of the joint there? Is that okay? [speaker002:] It feels a bit tender, but [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it's okay, yeah. [speaker001:] Well yeah. Over the top? [speaker002:] Yeah that's fine. [speaker001:] Under there? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now if I come round, just sit forward slightly for me, that's right. If I come round the shoulder blade muscles, round there.... Anything? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] If I was to sort of pinch the muscle at the back here? [speaker002:] If you can find it, that's [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] huge muscle. Is that tender at all? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Okay, can you point to where you get most discomfort? [speaker002:] Right, in [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] the centre there. [speaker001:] Right in there? Oh okay. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Is that tender to press in there? Oh yes. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Is that hurting there? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] . That's fine. I'm. Now this isn't your s shoulder directly, but it is the muscles that hold and support and turn the shoulder blade, and of course whenever you do anything with your shoulder the shoulder blade moves with it. So it will tend to pull and it almost definitely is either reaching or pulling or holding something or holding on for your life, [speaker002:] So I've just strained something? [speaker001:] venture park. Yeah. It's [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] a muscle pull. But the trouble is with muscle pulls, they heal fairly slowly. They tend to get worse over a fe over a few days, before they start to get better as well. But it will improve, and the important thing is, pain relief if necessary, because you must keep your shoulder moving. If you keep your shoulder still, because it doesn't hurt so much, it'll tend to seize up like a rusty [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] gate. [speaker002:] Practise first thing in the morning. [speaker001:] So ke that's right, so keep it moving, and the shoulder needs to be, to be able to go all the way up, all the way round, back you know, it's a very mobile joint. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But nothing serious though. [speaker002:] Good. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So I can write... [whispering] it's a lower full range of movement [], mobilize. That's the important phrase, and if you find it's easier to keep it mobile if you've taken some paracetamol or aspirin, then by all means do that. [speaker002:] Right. Would it be possible to find out what Priscilla's results were because she's had a urine test and she's extremely sore and they've asked for another urine test, and I'm [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] a little bit concerned. [speaker001:] Wh we hav we haven't grown any bugs, but we have found red blood cells and er white blood cells there which are the sort of blood cells you get in wee if there's been informatio inflammation or infection round. So it points towards an infection but it doesn't prove it. Waterworks infections in kids are actually very very important to identify because they all need investigating. [speaker002:] Right. Is there anything else that I can do [beep] for her cos she says she is in quite a lot of discomfort at the moment. [speaker001:] Stacks and stacks to drink. The more dilute the urine, the less it'll irritate, sting and burn. And it'll tend to flush things through. But we must have another sample, and we we [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] don't want the first wee of the mor We don't want the first one in the morning. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] Any, any other one. So let her empty her bladder after it's been sitting there overnight, and then a nice fresh sample. As long as it gets here before [speaker002:] Ah right. [speaker001:] half ten. The first one in the morning often has all sorts of rubbish in. It tends to be rather concentrated and isn't really the one we want. [speaker002:] That's probably why we had trouble last time. [speaker001:] Well maybe, yes. Okay have you got a fresh bottle? [speaker002:] I have yes, [speaker001:] Okay. That's that. [speaker002:] Right, okay, thank you very much. [speaker001:] Not at all, we'll see what happens with her, but the sooner we get that the sooner we can take things on if we need to. [intercom over following] Lovely Okay? [speaker002:] Thank you very much for your help. [speaker001:] Not at all. If you have further problems, pop back. [speaker002:] Right, thanks. [speaker001:] See you. [speaker002:] Bye. [speaker001:] Hello Dorothy. [speaker003:] The s it isn't Dorothy, it's me. [speaker001:] Oh sorry Joan, I'm sorry. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I do apologize, I really do apologize for that. [speaker003:] It's [speaker001:] Oh ta. [telephone conversation for over a minute]

[speaker001:] last week, week before, I was told a chest infection and throat infection and well I just don't feel no better. Coughing all the while. I've also been sick but er [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker001:] I sto I haven't been sick for er about a week [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] now. [speaker002:] Right. you've just finished a course of antibiotics, haven't you? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] And that's fine and before that er yeah [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] [whispering] []. Do you smoke? Do you smoke? [speaker001:] No. [cough] [speaker002:] right, okay and nothing coming up? [speaker001:] No I, I, I get a bit there every now and then and heave, and that [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] makes me feel even worse [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] like cos I [speaker002:] Yeah, what job do you do? [speaker001:] A miner.... [speaker002:] Okay, open wide for me. Stick your tongue out. Say ah. [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker002:] Yeah, it looks pretty good down there, okay, well let's have a listen to your chest. Yeah, they'll be fine, bit cool. Nice deep breath.... Mm. Keep breathing for me.... Very deep breaths out.... Well. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] How would you feel if er a if I said sort of describe how you feel on a scale of one to ten? [speaker001:] Er right now I'm two one, two or lower. [speaker002:] Yeah, do you get [speaker001:] Feel really low and out of breath easily. [speaker002:] Yeah. Are you getting hot sweats? [speaker001:] Yeah, do now and then, yeah. [speaker002:] Have you been anywhere exotic on holiday in the past three months? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Past year? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] And conditions down the pits? [speaker001:] Hot. [speaker002:] . Damp? Water? [speaker001:] Well our pits there's a lot of water but it's, it's mostly body sweat and s I do get some water off a, a machine that I drive. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But er it's, it is very hot. It's n no a hundred degrees. Humid. [speaker002:] Yeah, okay. Previous to this you've been fit and well? Cos we've [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] hardly seen you at all. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Okay. You've got a nasty chest infection. down here, the whole of the left side on the back. Are you getting any chest pain? [speaker001:] I have been on, you know with [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] the breathing? I couldn't. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You know when [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I, I wanted to cough and I couldn't [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because I couldn't take a [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] big breath. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Every time I took a big breath I were getting short pains all down this side? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well it, it, not yesterday, the day before, I got them under my right shoulder blade, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] like, when I took a big breath it were the [cough] [speaker002:] Right, okay. We erm probably ought to do some blood tests too [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and a chest X-ray, and some antibiotics. Are you not fit for work? [speaker001:] Well I should have started back yesterday [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] but, [speaker002:] so you're not fit for work. You're not fit for work. Don't often tell people they're not fit. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I normally say how do you feel, but not in your case, [speaker001:] I was worried about the, the work I, I couldn't get in to see you until today [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and I should have started back yesterday like. [speaker002:] . Do you think you can roll your sleeve up? Have you had blood taken before? [speaker001:] I think so yeah, but a while ago. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Which sleeve, left or right [speaker002:] Whichever you've got good veins in really. [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Just er [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] has anyone else been unwell with anything similar that you're aware of,? [speaker001:] My son was about three week ago but... it w it wasn't as bad as this, he got a bad cough and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] things like but he wasn't [speaker002:] You're not taking any pills and tablets at all are you? [speaker001:] No. Only I have had those what the [speaker002:] Yeah, they obviously haven't worked. [speaker001:] [cough] Er I keep getting a lot of headaches and I think it's with the hacking and coughing I'm doing. [speaker002:] I should think so [speaker001:] And I just er you know I have paracetamol or aspirin. [speaker002:] okay, one two three.... I'm sure you've got one of these really strange chest infections, and these are the ones that tend to hit young, healthy, fit, young adults. [speaker001:] Yeah well it's rare for me to come to the doctor's but last three week I've been here like every week, kind of thing. [speaker002:] Mm. Well... they're not common but every now and again we see someone who looks like they've got a straightforward problem that doesn't get better. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And it's the not, do you want to press over there? It tends to be the [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] the not getting better with normal things that gives it away. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And I'm sure when we do these blood tests... we'll find that things are not altogether normal, now sometimes it's actually the way you respond to treatment that gives it away rather than [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] doing blood tests but er we're going to treat you somewhat differently.... Now we'll probably need to repeat some of these in about ten to fourteen days. The lab really want two samples. I'm going to ask them to run them today. To, well to run them now, they'll still take a week to come back, even if they do run them today, That's okay, isn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. The other thing you need is a chest X-ray, and that's very important er to see exactly what degree of trouble is going on. Because there's an awful lot of rubbish to hear rattling around. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] We'll find there's a, quite a lot to see on a film. It's isn't it? [speaker001:] Yes, that's right.... [speaker002:] Now if you nip down to the Victoria Hospital, if you know where that is in Mansfield? [speaker001:] Yeah, the one [speaker002:] It's called Mansfield community [speaker001:] Yeah I know which one you mean, yeah. [speaker002:] Er you can go to the X-ray department there any day Monday to Friday, any time between nine and four thirty, so it's basically all day every day. Okay? If you get yourself down there, they'll do a chest X-ray, you don't need an appointment, there should be minimal waiting time, in and out. Okay? [speaker001:] Have I go that, have I to hang about for the re the recor the [speaker002:] No they, they send it [speaker001:] They'll sort it all out. [speaker002:] they send the report to me. [speaker001:] Okay, yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. Now... it's important that we review you. You do need to be seen next week really. Ah unfortunately I'm not here to follow you up cos I'm actually away next week, sorry about that. But you really do need to be seen next week to have a look at the initial blood results, the chest X-ray, more importantly, how are you getting on. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] That's more important. Now this stuff is two a day, as a single daily dose, on an empty stomach, okay? For, I think we'd probably better keep you going for, how about six da hmm for five days, that's actually quite a long course for this stuff cos it lasts an awful long time in the body. So that's a, these are a pretty hefty dose of antibiotics. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Two a, a day as a single dose, strictly on an empty stomach so at least half an hour to an hour before food. [speaker001:] Yes okay [speaker002:] for five days, boom boom boom boom boom. It's completely different from what you've had before. Er if it upsets your tummy let us know, but that's actually very uncommon. This is the stuff I used for my sinusitis, it's wonderful. Okay? It's not quite like Domestos by mouth but it's not far short. If the blood tests show anything specific that we need to get back to you on, we will contact you directly. Are you on the phone? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Lovely, okay, and you need a note. I'm gonna put two weeks cos I'm sure you're not going to be g fit e you won't feel fit, [speaker001:] Okay, [speaker002:] to go back that quickly, even if your chest is clearing rapidly. I'll put atypical chest infection. We may be able to actually narrow it down to a particular bug and that's what these are for. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But er we will see. Okay? [speaker001:] thank you very much. [speaker002:] So it's very important we get you seen next week, even if you feel a lot better. Er note, chest X-ray [speaker001:] Do you want me to make an appointment next week, while I'm here? [speaker002:] blood s yes i you'll have to see one of either Doctor or Doctor I'm afraid but er if I, if I write everything down they'll know exactly where we are and what's going on. [speaker001:] [cough] [] [speaker002:] Okey-doke? [speaker001:] [cough] Thank you. [cough] [speaker002:] Not at all, take care of yourself. Plenty to drink, ordinary wise. I would avoid alcohol even though they don't actually antibiotics, it'll probably make you feel more knackered than you already are. [speaker001:] Yeah. thanks. [speaker002:] [hiccup]. Right. [speaker001:] Right, thank you very much then. [speaker002:] Okay, take care of yourself. [speaker001:] Right, cheers. [speaker002:] Bye now.

[speaker001:] What can I do for you this mor oh well shall I do Jade first? [speaker002:] Yeah. Well I've been up practically the best part of the night with her, just crying. [speaker001:] Oh Jade. [speaker002:] Pulling at her ears. But she, the last couple of days she's hardly eaten a thing [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] and she's, I notice she's got a rash coming round here. [speaker001:] Yeah, any sickness or diarrhoea? [speaker002:] None at all. She's had a little bit of diarrhoea, well it's not diarrhoea it's such a, I know [speaker001:] Squidgy [speaker002:] when she's teething, cos [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] she fills nearly every nappy [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] but she's just been crying nonstop. [speaker001:] Mm. Well she seems quite content sitting there. The common problems are the n the throat and ears in kids [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and that'd go along both with [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] ears [speaker002:] I suppose [speaker001:] and not eating of course. [speaker002:] couple of weeks back she got a throat infection, I just wondered whether it had come back. [speaker001:] Now then. Shall we have a look at dolly first? Shall we look at dolly? Shall we look at dolly's ears? Look at dolly? [whispering] Ooh dolly's got nice ears []. Oh yes. Dolly's okay, isn't she? Mm. Shall we look at Jade next? Well she's certainly got a few glands coming up. Right Jade, I'm going to have a look in your ears, [whispering] and this is going to tickle a little bit []. Okay? You your mummy. Very good. There's that one. Yeah, now they're both okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] They both look congested but not infected at all. So let's have a look down her throat, and that's likely to be the source of the problem. And there's no spots anywhere else? Mm, no. Okey-doke. Shall we have a little look, open your [speaker002:] Open your mouth. [speaker001:] Open your mouth. Ooh let's have a little look then, let's have a little look at these teethies. Oh good grief, what great big teeth you've got. What great big teeth you've got. You got the great big, you've got some great big tonsils too, to go along with your great big teethies. Have a look at your great big tonsils? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Come on sweetheart, open your mouth []. [speaker001:] She will in a minute. Oh look. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] have little look. [speaker002:] Come on. [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [speaker002:] Good girl. [speaker001:] you hit the back of the tongue, they gag, and you can [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] see everything. [speaker002:] Good girl. [speaker001:] Just a moment's discomfort. She's got a very very nasty looking throat. It really is extremely inflamed. And that I should think is a source of this. [speaker002:] She only had one a few weeks a go as well. [speaker001:] Yeah, I know. Well children of this age are prone to them, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] they haven't met all the bugs that you and I have, so they keep coming down. [speaker002:] Come on sweetheart. [speaker001:] Once they hit them [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so [speaker002:] Well I used to suffer with them. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] My throat's... [speaker001:] Now. What we'll do is we'll give her penicillin. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I would an for two reasons I, I'm going to give her quite a long course. The first one is, you need to give longer courses of antibiotics to clear throat infections [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] as a rule. [speaker002:] Come here sweetheart. [speaker001:] And secondly she's actually recently had one so we need to make sure we completely eradicate it. I suppose this could be a flare up of the last one. Which occasionally happens, some of them are difficult to get rid of. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So it's four times a day for ten days, it's not Amoxil [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] It's ordinary penicillin. And it must be taken on an empty stomach. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But this is the drug of choice for this sort of throat infection. [speaker002:] Mm. Oh, come on. [intercom comes on, conversation down intercom] [speaker001:] Hello. [speaker003:] Hello, erm it's a Mr Brian from the for you. [intercom goes off] [speaker001:] ?... [phone rings phonecall starts] A workload survey that the are doing, and er they they're trying to get loads of GPs to do it and of course they want me to do it next week, and I'm not here next week. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So that makes it very easy to fill in, so I don't mind doing that at all. So four times a day for ten days, on an [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] empty stomach, stacks to drink, Calpol if necessary. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And that'll hopefully do the trick. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay. Right. You're next. [speaker002:] Well I just keep when I sit down, I'm tired all the while and I've got no appetite whatsoever. [speaker001:] Mm. Interesting. Weight okay? [speaker002:] Well I have been slimming constantly since I had Jade cos [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I put nearly four stone on. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And er [speaker001:] You must be down somewhere near your target weight I should think. [speaker002:] Well I'm about I waver now between eight stone ten and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] nine stone. [speaker001:] Are you still actually dieting? [speaker002:] Well I just, yeah I suppose I am [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] because I'm not eating anything if I think to myself it's fattening, I'll [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, okay. Waterworks, bowels okay? [speaker002:] Er waterworks, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. Bowels? [speaker002:] Well occasionally. I don't think I'm eating enough to actually make myself go. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. Mm okay. Have you had problems before? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Ears? Throat? Nose? [speaker002:] Yeah I'm fine. [speaker001:] All bits and pieces okay. Periods? [speaker002:] Er yeah, they've been fine. [speaker001:] Mm. You've not really had anything wrong with you in the past, have you? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Just looking back through your notes. You've had babies. [speaker002:] One. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Baby or appendix in ninety eighty three. [speaker002:] Yeah. Jade [speaker001:] And then not an awful lot has really happened to you. Is there any family history of thyroid disease or liver disease or anything exciting? [speaker002:] Oh. Not that I can [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] think of, no. [speaker001:] Mood okay? [speaker002:] Mood? [speaker001:] Mood. [speaker002:] Well when, the week before I'm due for my period I'm really really nasty, in [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] fact I'm vicious. And er [speaker001:] Do you feel more er active with that? Sort of, is it an active anger or do you still feel tired and...? [speaker002:] Erm no not really I, I feel alright, it's just that I'm so nasty all the while and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I can't seem to help it. As soon as he come through the [LAUGHTER] door I go for his jugular [] and take everything out on him and it, it's not fair. [speaker001:] This is a familiar story. [speaker002:] Now I try to avoid chocolate and I crave it when I [speaker001:] Premenstrually? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Which you what er are you on the pill? [speaker002:] Yeah. U [speaker001:] Which one are you on? [speaker002:] Uginon Thirty. [speaker001:] Mm. You see in theory you shouldn't really get pe premenstrual problems on the pill but people do. [speaker002:] It's the week before, and the week while I'm on. So it's [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] for two weeks. [speaker001:] Okay. Right. How would you say you if, what are you like after that? Are you normal? [speaker002:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] But still tired and a bit? [speaker002:] Oi. [speaker001:] Or are you a fairly normal normal? [speaker002:] No I normally bounce straight back [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and I'm alright. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It's just this time I'm tired all the while. [speaker001:] Yeah. Okay. Let me check your blood pressure. It's a more importantly to make sure it's normal rather than to look for a problem with it but... Now you're not trying to escape, are you Jade? [speaker002:] Come on, get your [speaker001:] You can go in the other cupboard if you want, that's a broom cupboard. That's very exciting in there, it's got a table in it. And a pair of weighing scales.... Nothing wrong with your blood pressure. Mm. I want to you look up for me. Mm, stick your tongue out. Er yes. Mm. It's difficult to tell with your make-up on but I think you look a bit pale. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] The eyes, your tongue and your finger nails both look [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] rather washed out to me. And that might go along with er diet. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Fairly strict diet and periods cos women tend to lose iron and certainly women who are actively dieting can actually become iron deficient. And that will really aggravate everything [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that I'm w now, so what I suggest we do, is before we say we must make your premenstrual tension better with various manip various bits and bobs, and there are quite a few things we can do to help. We really ought to do some baseline blood tests, and say [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] are you anaemic? Check your body biochemistry, check your thyroid gland. Cos these are the things that upset women and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] creep in. And if you are mildly anaemic, or short of iron, that may be the clue to why this has happened now, rather than happening before. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So if we arrange those. Now it's too late to do them this morning cos the van's already gone. But if we get you an appointment to see Georgina one morning at your convenience, so we can rattle those off [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and then do those. Is that okay? [speaker002:] Yeah. No that's fine.... [speaker001:] You've done very well with the diet of course. [speaker002:] I was getting a bit disheartened at one point [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] and [speaker001:] You're fine. You, you must be round your ideal weight really. So I mean you don't want to go di di down to a size eight or a size ten, cos I think you'd feel [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] worse if you did. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Now then have you found something interesting? I've got something interesting here, it's called a teddy bear sticker, and it says, no not, not a thing full of Codafiene tablets, no. They belong on the shelves knock them off. This says I was good at the doctor's today? Would you like one of those? [speaker002:] Jade. [speaker001:] Would you like one of these stickers? Shall I give you a sticker? Ah. Look at that. I bet there's no one else out there with a sticker today, I certainly haven't given any out so [speaker002:] Come on.. Pick your baby up. Pick your baby up. [baby cries] Where you teddy bear look. [speaker001:] Okay so we'll rattle, if we do those and then we'll have a chat. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] See what happens. I mean if it turns out you're not anaemic and your sort of pallor is normal for you, [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] then, then we can go ahead and get cracking straight away. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] But I suspect that may be something we need to address as well. Okay? [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Have we got some er stuff for, stuff for Jade? [speaker002:] Come on, get your dolly. [speaker001:] Can I pick dolly up? [speaker002:] Come on. [speaker001:] I'll pick her up. [speaker002:] Come on [speaker001:] Right see you then.

[speaker001:] Right Mrs do have a seat. What can I do for you? [speaker002:] It's the eczema again. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] Actually it started getting a bit better from when I telephoned. [speaker001:] Ah good. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What are you taking at the moment? Are we putting anything much on? [speaker002:] Erm I use the Dipabase and the erm [speaker001:] Betnovates [speaker002:] Betnovates [speaker001:] Ointment I think. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] It was back in February I saw you isn't it? Let's have a look. And it really is very localized but that is quite angry, it's bubbly too and spreading, little finger. But these two are fine. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. Hmm. This bubbly area. [speaker002:] You say that's. Mm. [speaker001:] Yeah. Right are you still using Betnovates And [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Dipabase And [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it's flared up despite that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right,. Okey-doke. Hmm. It's, it's a bit cracked. It makes it very [cough] [speaker002:] As I say it's better than, it's a bit better than it was. [speaker001:] But it's still not that [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] good is it? No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Right, what we need to do is to hit it fairly hard and try to get it damped down as quickly as we possibly can. Now don't get rid of the Betnovate have you still got some left? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Okay. Because as soon as it starts to die down you could probably go back on to Betnovate to keep it maintained. And you may actually have to use Betnovate on a preventative basis every now and again. Even if there's not a deal there, as soon as it starts it's slightly flaky [click] straight in. But what I'm gonna do is give you erm Dermavate Dermavate is actually more potent than Betnovate in the ointment form again to get the rapid penetration. And once again, like Betnovate it's used twice a day. And in a similar fashion you should use the Dipabase to keep the skin as soft and moist as you can [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] rather than letting it get dried out and cracked. Dermavate is, as I say, it's more potent, it's probably not so suitable for keeping going with, but for jumping on top of things in a hurry, it's fine. And I think that's what we ought to use. Sometimes you actually need to use it under something, but it's difficult to use under things and part of the hand. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I don't know what you mean under [speaker001:] Well sort of under a dressing, or [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] under a bit of polythene, so it, it actually gets absorbed even quicker. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But er I don't think we need to go to that er length with you. [speaker002:] I've still got those erm, you know, the little purple tablets? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That dissolve in water, [speaker001:] Yeah, to soak them. Mm. You could, you could go back on the Permitabs if you want. It's not desperately moist, although certainly one of them is cracking quite a bit, and if that helps to dry it up and make it more comfortable then it's worth giving them a soak ten minutes a day. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] If you want to try those, you dissolve one in four litres of water which is er which is a little, just short just short of a gallo yeah you need a bowl. Yeah, but then you get the right concentration. If you use too high a concentration, it irritates and it stains even more than the dilute stuff does. But that may be worth a go if you've got some Permitabs left. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But I think we'll use some Dermavate Have you got plenty of Dipabase [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Good. A big tub, yeah? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] That's fine. [speaker002:] Is it alright to put that on, you know, when it's broken? The skin [speaker001:] Yes, you've got, you've got to be a bit careful with broken skin because if you put things directly on it, they tend to irritate. It won't do the skin any harm particularly, but it can smart. And [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] that might be one good reason for using the er the soaks. The other think I'd recommend, is, using a fine pair scissors, is take off the scaly bits, the bits that stick out, cos they're the bits that catch [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and hurt and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] pull the skin apart. And once they're all sticking out, dead and scaly, they're redundant anyway, so you may as well trim it all down. Neaten it up. And you're less likely to catch your hands then. Okay? [speaker002:] Okay. I'm going on holiday, a week on Sunday, and that was mainly why I wanted [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] you know, to get sorted [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] before then, because [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I think if I'm in [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I'm going to Spain, it's gonna be even [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] more of a nuisance. [speaker001:] Yeah I think so. Well let me give you two tubes just in case you need to keep going for er longer than we might think. Okay. And then you can take that with you. So if. The other thing about the ointment's, of course, it waterproofs the hand, which is handy if you're going into the Med. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] If you will get some er protection then from the horrible Med wa soup getting in and infecting it. [speaker002:] What about swimming and things? I mean [speaker001:] Yeah you're okay, you can go swimming, it shouldn't do you any harm. I mean in n things like swimming baths are chlorinated so they've got a low bug count anyway, so, so you'll be at low risk of getting anything there. [speaker002:] Right, so I, I use this till it clears [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] up? [speaker001:] Yeah, and then you you've got your Betnovate to keep yourself ticking over with I hope. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Okay. Some people need Dermavate to tick over with but er it's a bit potent to keep people going and going and going on so we'll see how you go with that. [speaker002:] Lovely.... [speaker001:] Take care of yourself. [speaker002:] Okay, thanks. [speaker001:] Bye. [speaker002:] Bye.

[speaker001:] So the patches [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] the patches, right now, you're on, we put you the Oestraderm fifties? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Because you'd stopped the Premeren and how are you getting on with those? You've had your first month's worth. [speaker002:] Er the first couple of weeks were fine, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I felt a lot better. But I just feel tired again, [speaker001:] Oh it's got worse? [speaker002:] Yeah, I'm just tired. And I notice as well er more so at night when I'm watching T VCV or even when I, I go to bed [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] my heart starts racing and I can feel the pulses in my neck and like my throat's constricting. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] And I don't know why. [speaker001:] Right. Any hot flushes? [speaker002:] No. That I haven't had. [speaker001:] Right.... Now then you was put on Premeren it was given at the hospital, wasn't it? [speaker002:] Yes it we because I was er my heart was racing and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] er what have you there. [speaker001:] And before that you were having er horrendous irregular periods? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. Let's have a look at er... oh that's right, oh that's, that's a seven. Hmm. No, well yeah. Well I think the thing to do is to actually give you the higher dose patches. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Wh when you put people on the patches for the first time because the hormone goes straight into the system, rather than having to go through the gut, [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] if you've been short of hormone, you'll get a big boost straight away and, and you'll get the benefits. But if it's not quite enough, although you'll get the initial benefits they, they can tend to wear off, so some people are better on the higher, some people are better on the lower dose. And it looks like you could do with more. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] The next step up is the hundreds, and you use them in exactly the same way, one twice a week. Instead of being round they're sort of, sort of rectangular [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] type. Now the last person I had moved on to the hundreds had enormous problems with the stickiness of them. So if you find they're not sticking, I would be delighted to hear, cos that means it's not just this woman it's actually [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] the patches that are causing [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] problems. Now in her case we put her on two fifties but that i [LAUGHTER] uses up an awful lot of skin [] and it's a real hassle, so er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I can imagine. [speaker001:] so er I think that'd be the, the sensible thing to do. Now I checked your blood pressure only four weeks ago and that was absolutely [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] normal. Er what we'll do is that I'll give you another eight of these, now if they're a lot better just s give a ring in [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] okay? Er that's ring for repeat and wh what we'd do is give you three monthly repeats, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] after that, well I would, er it all depends who does the repeat prescription I suppose but er I would give you three monthly repeats. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is that okay? [speaker002:] Yeah, that's fine. [speaker001:] You've just got to be aware, they're a slightly different shape, and they're also bigger. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] And that's the other thing about it you see, you've got to stick them down carefully. But they say that they won't come off when you go swimming, and you take your clothes on and off.... [speaker002:] We shall see. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Unfortunately they've got the market cornered with these patches. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] One twice weekly the, so they're, there's only the these. No other firm does them so you can't say, let's try this firm's patches, cos they don't do them. [speaker002:] Actually I found them a lot more convenient than [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] than the other form. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Cos you tend to forget, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] with the pills. [speaker001:] Yes. Some people say they're so convenient they forget these as well. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh no I keep it at the side of my bed with the, the strip telling me [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] which day I've got to, to change them. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] And I, they're there all the time, so [speaker001:] Good. [speaker002:] I, I always remember. [speaker001:] that's fine. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay then? [speaker002:] Okay then, thanks a lot. [speaker001:] See you. [speaker002:] Bye.

[speaker001:] Mr, do have a seat. What can I do for you this morning? [speaker002:] Well I seem to have a sore throat I can't get rid of. I've had it three week, I've got bad breath and it's all like coming down here and in my ear. But the thing that concerned me, my little lad's had tonsillitis three times on the trot. And I'm [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] wondering whether it's I'm giving it to him, to him or what. I don't know whether I am or not. [speaker001:] Is he giving it to you, or are you giving it him. [speaker002:] I don't know but he can't shake it off. He's had antibiotics right, three times, and he's still got it. [speaker001:] Have a quick look at your right ear, your left one looks fine. What job do you do? [speaker002:] Er well I'm, I'm not working at the moment, cos I've hurt my back. [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] I've got arthritis of hips and... [speaker001:] You haven't been down drains or anything like that of late? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No. No. [speaker001:] Stick your tongue out. Say ah. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] Still can't see much.... You smoke? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Any false teeth? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] right. Open mouth for me. Say ah. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] Yes, very nasty looking. Okay, let's have a quick look around the rest of your mouth. Would you breathe out for me. Yeah. Breath is fine. [speaker002:] It's usually in the morning when it's really Yeah. [speaker001:] really s I've been to dental hygiene cos I thought Yeah. [speaker002:] it were my teeth, but she says [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] you've got no problem there. [speaker001:] No, I suspect what's happening is the, the stuff that's oozing out of your tonsils is what you're tasting, and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] is what is making the horrible taste. So your breath is fine, your teeth are fine, your gums are fine, your tongue's fine, but your tonsils look very unhealthy, they really do look nasty. And you can see little beads of pus oozing out. I think you've got a really nasty infection down there. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] coming under [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the armpit. You know [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and round [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] here, I don't whether [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] any? [speaker001:] Yeah, the inflammation will often spread down here and make you feel grotty. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now you rea fo w with a story like this you really need a erm a, a decent does of antibiotics and given the of the unpleasant taste and the pus you can see, ordinary penicillin probably won't do the trick, so we need to use something with a bit more oomph [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] than that. And that's what I suggest we do. You're not allergic to anything you know of are you? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Okay. Do you pay for your prescriptions? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. And antiseptic mouthwash of some sort might be a good idea. [speaker002:] Well I've been using that what you buy from [speaker001:] Oh good, yeah. Keep going, keep going, gargle. [speaker002:] chemist and I've also had a throat spray. [speaker001:] Yeah. Gargling will help, just to sort of clean out any gunge that's accumulating. That's it, that's the reason for using it. You won't actually make the tonsils better any quicker, but it will help to prevent some of the taste and the gunge. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] This is a penicillin antibiotic. It's been sort of turbo charged [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] by something extra with it. Th one three times a day, for seven days. You can take it with food, after food, between meals, makes no odds. Y you can take [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] paracetamol, if you're getting hot and achy. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You can erm yeah. You can still drink alcohol if you want to, it doesn't interfere with anything, okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] The side effects of penicillin, the commonest one is loose motion. So if your bowels go a bit loose, don't be [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] too concerned. But I'd very surprised if that doesn't do the trick. If it's not settling, then we should do some blood tests and a throat swab, but it's bit late to do those today I'm afraid. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And hopefully that'll do the trick. And if your son isn't settling down then we may need to have another look at him, and run some tests on him. [speaker002:] doctor and he's still with my wife you see. [speaker001:] Oh I see well [speaker002:] sending him to a throat specialist because [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] he's had it [speaker001:] Oh. I see. [speaker002:] like a month now he's had it. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's a long time. It implies there's something more to it, more to it than just a standard bug I must say. And if I come down with a sore throat now, I'll know who to blame. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. I've got a, a spot here. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I've, I've got to ask you to have a look at it, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] my wife says she's seen a programme on telly. I don't think it's owt anyway, but [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I'll show you anyway. [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] It's just there look I've had it [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker002:] about three years and it has bled a couple of times. [speaker001:] Mm, that looks like an innocent little er [speaker002:] I don't think it's owt but just to prevent my [speaker001:] I don't know how you'd describe that but it's er it's got all the features of an innocent little blob. [speaker002:] Right. I'm okay then. [speaker001:] Yeah, I think that's okay. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Right, not at all. Take care of yourself. [speaker002:] Yeah, [beep] [speaker001:] See you bye now. [speaker002:] Bye. [intercom on] [speaker003:] Hello. [speaker001:] Hel hello Dorothy. [speaker003:] Doctor for you Doctor. [speaker001:] Doctor? [speaker003:] Mhm. [intercom off] [speaker001:] Hang on.... [phone rings phonecall starts]

[speaker001:] Right just [speaker002:] Right, first thing, [speaker001:] We'll make a list. [speaker002:] I lost me prescription when he gave me, and we've been away. The, my eye I got some drops from the chemist cos my eye was bad. And it feels as if there's grit all in it now. [speaker001:] Yeah. So you hav t haven't actually had any Eyecron [speaker002:] No I had, I had of the chemist in Chapel because it came [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] so bad. [speaker001:] Yeah. So you really need some Eyecron don't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. I think I do with this. [speaker001:] You really need some Eyecron [speaker002:] Yeah. I wouldn't go to a doctor there because of this malignant thing so I just managed till we came back [speaker001:] Yeah, well I [speaker002:] Getting better but it's just this gritty thing in the back of my eye, I mean I [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] was [speaker001:] Just er look up for me. It still looks rather boggy doesn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. It's terrible. [speaker001:] Er the other eye. That one [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] doesn't look too bad but that one Just look straight at me. Yeah I, the front of the eye looks quite, [speaker002:] Mm. It just feels horrible. [speaker001:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] It's nothing to do with hay fever is it, this, do you think? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Cos when I blow nose, this thing, pops. It's ever so queer. [speaker001:] There's a drainage tube,th [speaker002:] I've always suffered with my sinuses. [speaker001:] there's a drainage tube that goes from [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] this corner of the eye, to [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] the top of the nose. Which is [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] why, when you cry, your nose runs. Okay, and [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] if that is a little, that keeps blocking, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] when you blow your nose it will tend, it can go the [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] other way as well. [speaker002:] Yeah. But are they okay with leaving it for another week will I? It'll be okay with [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] leaving it. I hope. [speaker001:] Well I hope the Eyecron will actually get it to settle down. So, you said that was the first thing, or were, was it that were both it [speaker002:] No that was it. I wanted to be honest and say I'd [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] lost a prescription. Then we went away you see? And I thought, well I'll just pop in chemist and I was hoping it would clear it up, so I wouldn't [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] have to confess. [speaker001:] No don't wor [speaker002:] But it's not. [speaker001:] Still gritty? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So we'll see what the Eyecron does. If it still remains uncomfortable, then we, then we need to have a closer look and we may need to get the eye specialist involved if it's refused to settle down. But you can still see clearly? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] That's good yeah. [speaker002:] I a lot of pain at the back of my eye though [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] while I were on holiday, it was terrible. [speaker001:] Well it's bit brighter at the coast, and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well we'll, we'll see what happens with the Eyecron I think that'll turn it off, but doesn't then we must have another look, very important. [speaker002:] I'm very Bye bye. [speaker001:] Okay. See you. Bye now.

[speaker001:] a new, a new, a new a new toy. [speaker002:] I'm glad somebody's got something in [speaker001:] I'm, I'm the only one working now, they've, they've all packed up for the day. Do have a seat anyway. [speaker002:] Er I've been doing a, been writing a book now, for about ten years. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Erm I was on the railway for thirty years, as a driver on the railway at wouldn't remember [speaker001:] Er no, no. Bit before my time, I'm afraid. [speaker002:] And erm anyway it was a wonderful place, wonderful relationship with the men and erm about the only odd thing about it I've come up against a snag which I didn't think I've had a ghost writer, I've got publishers, and as I can't get er permission for all the photos that I want. [speaker001:] Oh dear, that's a shame. [speaker002:] Because there's a ten year [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] er one thing or another, I must have spent a couple of thousand pounds on these photos. Anyway you're just interested [speaker001:] No no no no. [speaker002:] But er well what it is I've got a mouth problem. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Now when I came to see you, I think it were earlier on in the year and I've been to see er the other doctors. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er we had a virus, now I've still got this sore tongue that keeps coming back, very badly. Now the other day when I rung for appointment

[speaker001:] Right. I start. Erm. you work for erm Law Centre, erm, how long have you been working for the Law Centre? [speaker002:] Been working for the Law Centre for three and a half years. [speaker001:] Mhm. During that time erm how much involvement have you had with flats? [speaker002:] Erm we've always been involved with the flats, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and with the tenants of the flats right [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] from the start. Erm but we've also been involved with p with specific projects with the tenants group. Erm one to do with tenants moving out of the flats, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and another to do with erm supplementary benefits and heating additions for tenants, in both and flats. [speaker001:] Mhm. So the main p so the main erm that's individuals that have come in here? You're talking about individuals that have come in here, or you're talking about the tenants' association, the representation [speaker002:] I, I, I'm say erm we've, we've been in we've been in we've been involved with individuals, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] always [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a a and always will be. But we've been involved with two specific projects that we've worked on in conjunction with the tenants' association, [speaker001:] [yawning] Aha []. [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm a and that has, that has led us from the group back to the individual tenants, and one [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] one of those projects erm was, was an advice er advice project for tenants who were being moved out as part of the, as part of the programme of moving o of moving the tenants out, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and was to do with what the rights would be erm in terms of benefits and in terms of compensation from the council when they moved out. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The other, the other thing that we worked,w we've been working with, and are still working with, erm to take up campaign for tenants in who're on Supplementary Benefit or Housing Benefit supplement, erm to claim the higher rate heating addition for their flat. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I think the tenants als the tenants in the low-rise flats, the maisonettes, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] are also erm being involved in take up campaign for the s for the same thing. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And we've had one or two appeals so far. [speaker001:] You've had one or two appeals actually go out? And how the how've they gone? [speaker002:] Erm it seems to be pe depend very much on individual circumstances. [speaker001:] Mhm. So the heating addition that you, that you, that you erm been talking about, that's the extra heating m money you can get if you can prove that y that your erm [speaker002:] Accommodation is hard to he [speaker001:] is exceptionally hard to heat, yeah. [speaker002:] That's it. That's right, yeah, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] yeah, yeah. And the main thrust of our campaign was to try and get the D, to get the D H S S to accept that... as an entity, as a tower block, was hard to heat, so that the tenants would automatically get it. But they've refused to do that, and they insist on taking each case individually. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm because although they accept that there are certain conditions within the, within the tower block which affect the block as a whole, they would say that they would affect each individual flat to a greater or lesser degree and that they would have to be taken on individual merit. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And it's the same with the low-rise flats as well, with the maisonettes. [speaker001:] And that's, am I right in saying that in terms of the erm move to try and get erm heating additions, it's actually started er in, and that but now there's, there's, there's been a spin-off affect, and increasingly people are trying [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] to get the same thin trying to get the heating additions in erm, flats themselves? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And also am I, am I right in saying that the preliminary interview, you said something about erm having erm sessions, you had, for a time you were actually erm situated in the flats overni [speaker002:] Yes, we were. Erm, it was early last year, nineteen eighty five, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] erm people were starting to move out, and I think that, I think quite a lot of people, well although they'd had a lot of information from the Local Authority, were still very unsure about how that would affect other benefits, in particular supplementary benefits, and single payments, and that, that, grants for, for the furniture, that kind of thing. Erm and I think the tenants' group came to us and, and asked us if we would... set up an advice session for tenants moving out, which could be situated in the flats, and could be run on a regular basis. And we agreed to do that, and we put out quite a lot of publicity. W we put leaflets through the doors of all the flats, we put posters in the local post office and the library, and the boys' club, and one or two local shops, arts and crafts, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and an advert went out on Caroline, Radio Trent. And T X R X, B B C Radio Nottingham, to the effect that there were going to be these regular advice sessions at, which is the... ac the tenants' action group office. Erm a and f at first we had one or two people coming in, but then it, it, it dr it dropped off very quickly, and after about three months, I think, we decided we weren't getting enough take-up,w that we would not have the sessions in the flats any more, but that we would encourage people to come to the Law Centre if they had any problems. Erm, we, we had lots of theories about the reason, the reasons why people weren't coming to us. One, one might be that for people who are on a fairly low income or on benefits, the home-loss compensation which the council was offering did i would in fact seem like quite a lot of money erm and for any tenants who weren't in arrears, then they would receive the full amount. Er it did seem, it did seem, it would seem to a quite a lot of people that they were getting a good deal and they would accept that, and they would, relatively speaking, they were getting a good deal. Erm the other, the other factor would, might be that the kind of k er decrease and loss of morale within the, within the, within the complex. The fact that quite a lot of effort had actually gone into actually going int having negotiations with the Local Authority to, to rehouse all the tenants. Having achieved that, big sigh of relief and nothing else, kind of thing. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm... [speaker001:] You t you said about morale being, but why, and the, having met quite a few tenants from the flats, who in terms of individuals that have come in here, you know, to, to seek advice. You know what g how do you feel morale is in the flats at the moment? [speaker002:] At the moment? Erm [speaker001:] N er when you've been here what? For about three, three and a half years, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I mean has it ch is it, is it's changed during that period? Or is it [speaker002:] Erm I w I, I can't really say whether I feel it's changed a great deal because before I, before I wasn't really very closely involved [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] with, with, with it, with it before I actually got involved after negotiations had gone through for the remo for the moving of the tenants. So, although I, I met individual tenants at prior to that, that was on a much more kind of ad hoc basis, they w when they were, were coming into the Law Centre, maybe about something completely different. So I wouldn't necessarily talk to them about conditions in the flats. I feel now, erm just from talking to people, that there's very much a feeling of er a torpor, erm a kind of hiatus of waiting for something to happen, waiting to be moved out, looking forward to that. Although having said that, there w there are of course other people who... are probably quite very happy in their flat. Depending [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] on [speaker001:] Have, have you met m any, any who, who specifically said, you know, they were happy? It doesn't [speaker002:] I've met people who've said they've, they've enjoyed living in the flats, but all the people I've known who've said that have since moved out. And I think the people, most of the people I knew who said they were happy living in their flat [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] are people who had a choice about where they would live. Erm so they would have ch they chose to live there and they chose to move out. This was before the actual move. The actual big move that the because of the shutting [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] down of the complex. [speaker001:] Mhm. But you s so there's a, you there was a basically, a minority of those people that were happy? On [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] the basis of your knowledge of t s e [speaker002:] Yes, on the basis of my knowledge I would say, I would say so. [speaker001:] Mhm. What about other people who has anyone... on the basis of individuals that have come in here, do many individuals come in and actually have problems related to living in the flats? Directly or not. Or they, what kind of problems do, problems tend to come with from the flats? [speaker002:] Erm well as you, well, [speaker001:] Generally, I mean I would obviously I wouldn't want you to [speaker002:] Ye yeah. [speaker001:] individuals [speaker002:] No. Oh no. Erm we er well as you know I mean the there's a very high rate of unemployment amongst tenants in the flats, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and that obviously affects the kinds of problems they have with regard to income, benefits, debt problems erm... and with regards the kind of... things they come in to see us about, things like single payments f for things. Erm [speaker001:] That's the, that's the payments that you can get erm [speaker002:] The grants that you can get on, on top of your basic, your basic Supplementary Benefit rate. [speaker001:] at the moment, yeah. [speaker002:] At the moment, yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. So in t erm with your regard to you were saying about the fact that there's a lot of unemployment in the flats, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] erm what impact do you think it has when you have a complex in which there is such a, is such a high level of unemployment in which, which so few people are working, I mean, the ar the area itself, do you think it... has certain implications or not?... [speaker002:] I think it, I, I cer I, I certainly feel myself that it intensify [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it intensifies an individ the individual problem. It decreases the possibility of, of getting out of that situation because you've got so many other people against, against whom you're competing for work.... And also it, it intensifies the erm demand on housing stock, because none of those people are gonna be in a position to have very much choice when it come when it comes to finding somewhere to live. And g m quite a lot of them are going to be dependent on rented accommodation and in particular, well both council cou both, both council rented accommodation and private rented accommodation. Erm so you're going to get a lot of kind of landlord tenant type problems.... Erm... [speaker001:] What about your own? You've got what, you know in terms of when you've got... say that you have a very very high percentage of people, all in the same position living in one area. I mean what does that doing to, how does that, what impact do you think that, in terms of the c on the community, do you think that? On the basis of your... experience with tenants here, and the fact that there's so many people in the same position, I mean does that act is that [speaker002:] I don't er erm I don't think it, I mean we all know that, you know, er the unemployed are the, the least collectivized group of people in, as, as a group, that [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the fact that, there might be a lot of unemployed people doesn't nece around doesn't necessarily mean that they feel that... that they feel that they have a lot in common with each other, in terms of Yeah. Er it's not like if you had a lot of people in the flats who were all working up at for example, you'd have a lot more kind of community spirit going, and a lot, and a lot more common erm feeling, I think, between people. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And of course this whole area, I mean this whole area was, was built at a time when those factories were at their height, in the sort of late nineteenth century. And all [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] these, all these terraced houses, and a quite a lot of them were actually built by and. Erm and this whole area is, is, is, was built on that kind of industrial expansion at the end of the nineteenth century. A and I think, I mean that has, that itself has had an effect on the, on the, on the f on peoples' feelings for this area. I mean there, there are a lot of people, of people in who have lived here for a long time, and lived here ever since they were born. A lot of old people, we're talking about who have a very strong feeling of community within, within the area erm so I think that community spirit exists, but, but I think, but I think it exists despite the condition of unemployment that exists in the area. [speaker001:] Mhm. And y am I right, am I right in saying that you'd say that e... even though it may exist in itself, that it may even be, in fact be less in the flats than it is in the, in the wi in that in the wider area? Right in saying that you and that the, the fact that, the fact [speaker002:] I, I wouldn't, I, the fact [speaker001:] there's such unemployment, that the unemployment's even higher, that I mean it's pretty high in the area, [speaker002:] I, I what I'm saying is I'm saying that unemployment as a, as a... as a condition, [speaker001:] And if it especially, [speaker002:] D [speaker001:] high levels of unemployment exist in the flats? [speaker002:] and erm er erm erm doesn't necessarily bring people together, in fact, because it's a, it, it's a very isolating condition to be in. Because you're not, because you're inside a lot, you don't have to go out every day, you don't, you don't have anything very specific to do at different times during the day. Erm... it doesn't, it does it doesn't bind people together. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm it's a very hard thing for people in that situation to organize a as a group er so what I'm saying is that the level of unemployment in itself doesn't bind people together, but given that is a long-established kind of traditional working class area, there is that tradition of, of, of community that exists anyway, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] over and above the conditions that, that kind of pertain now [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] if you like. I feel that very strongly, I mean a lot of people have said, a lot of people in the flats have said, well I don't want to move out of the area, I don't like living in the flats, but I don't want to move out of the. [speaker001:] So is that kind of identification with the, with the area itself [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] even, even if people may be quite alienated [speaker002:] From the flats [speaker001:] to from the flats themselves? [speaker002:] That's right. Absolutely. [speaker001:] Mhm.... In te er in ter in terms of erm the flats themselves... and the tenants you've met, have they, what kind o have they complained very much about the flats? Have you, have you had much contact in terms of that? Related to the problems in, in with [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] with regard to say repairs or the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] complex itself? [speaker002:] Erm people don't actually complain that much about the complex itself, surprisingly [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] enough. They'll complain about an individual flat, [speaker001:] Yeah, what are their con [speaker002:] and I mean things like disrepair, erm inadequate heating, erm noise from other tenants, erm [speaker001:] But noise in what sense? what kind of noise are they talking about? Are they talking about [speaker002:] Well, it would depend but I mean there are various of nuisance from noise in the flats, or anywhere where you've got a lot of people put together all living in a s fairly small area. But erm but they don't, they don't really complain about the complex as a whole. They'll complain about their own i individual bit of it. [speaker001:] Does the er yeah. [speaker002:] If they complain at all. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I think it's the tenants' group which got together the, the, the sum of all those complaints,m erm which er and, and put them together to, to find what those common complaints were.... Which was then highlighted in the c in the structural report which went before the council which was the basis of their decision to rehouse all the tenants. [speaker001:] Mhm. And what do you feel, what are your feelings and with regard to the fact the flats are coming down?... [speaker002:] I just wonder what they're going to do with that space. [speaker001:] Mhm. about that, what are your feelings with in terms with regard to the tenants themselves? I mean do you think it's a good thing that the flats are coming down, for the people who are actually living there? Or not?... [speaker003:] [sniff]... [speaker002:] I think it, I think it's a good thing that the problems have been acknowledged, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and that, that the existing tenants are being rehoused. But I worry about whether that amount of housing stock is going to be replaced in the area, cos that is obviously very important. [speaker001:] Mhm. So what you're s so what you're saying is that erm one of the consequences could be that even as people are being rehoused from, one of the risks is that other people who are on the h waiting list [speaker002:] And also [speaker001:] may suffer, may well suffer? [speaker002:] and also that, that there might be, there might be fewer houses in the [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] so that it would have the affect of... decreasing the population in the and decreasing the amount of housing that's available to people in the. [speaker001:] Mhm.... [speaker002:] Cos I don't, I, I believe there's been, there've been no firm proposals for that site yet? Is that right? [speaker001:] That's right, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [sniff] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You're telling me erm prior to the interview about erm compensation about work that the erm Law Centre are doing with regard to compensation. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm, can you tell us a bit about that? [speaker002:] Erm, yes. Erm [speaker001:] That's compensation, is it for the tenants living in the flats? [speaker002:] Right, right. [speaker001:] Could you explain that? I know that the tenants are getting s get so, will be getting so much money, [speaker002:] Er when they leave. [speaker001:] on moving yeah th [speaker002:] That's right, well each tenant, each, each, each tenant on, when, when they move are given [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a home loss and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] disturbance payment erm to compensate them for the cost of remo cost of moving and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and, and kind of transporting themselves elsewhere, and setting up home elsewhere. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm now one of the things that the tenants' action group asked us about initially when they asked us to get in involved in the, in the advice sessions in the flats, was whether or not the tenants would be able to claim additional compensation, over and above what was already being offered.... We're still waiting for a green form extension to grant t t to be granted [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to the tenants erm for an independent environmental health officer to come along and do an independent environmental report on the flats. Erm a green form is a, a... it's,gr green, green form money is money which is given by the Law Society erm depending on how much work, how much time is spent on each case [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and in this case, as we we're working for a group of tenants, we can ask for an extension on one form to cover... so [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] many tenants, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and, and kind of use a test case for that. Erm, if we get the extension, and if we can get the report done, we can then use that report with a view to either one, taking an action for compensation by a test case for breach of the landlord's repairing obligations [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and or two,... with a view to proposing to r reduce the rateable value of the flats.... Erm [speaker001:] So would th would that s I mean, if that in terms of the rateable value, would that mean the rents would fall?... [speaker002:] No, it would mean the rates would fall. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The rates would fall []. Yes, so th so therefore as a consequence, the, the, the rent that people are paying each week would [speaker002:] Yeah, presumably, yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It would have a, it would have a knock-on effect. [speaker001:] Two was that element, sorry, and the, in terms of the... so that the rates would fall, and what's the other, the sorry,t that's, is that related to them erm? [speaker002:] Well, I mean we don't think, we, it's, I think it's unlikely that this is going to, to have any effect until possibly all the f all the tenants are moved out anyway. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] In which case it won't have any effect on the on the rent. [speaker001:] So what, what, what could it... am I right in saying that it's related to the, the work that you're doing is related to the particular circumstances the particular problems that people living in flats have had? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Over and above the compensation which people would, would get anyway,i in this situation? [speaker002:] That's right, [speaker001:] By saying that. [speaker002:] that's right. Yeah. [speaker001:] And the hope is to actually be able to get some recognition of that, [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] and hence erm [speaker002:] I i [speaker001:] compensation to c some kind of [speaker002:] right. [speaker001:] compensation to cover that. [speaker002:] Basically er the broad overall description would be to compensate for the conditions that the tenants had been living in prior to the move. And [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think that's, that's, that's, that's covered by my first point. Erm the possible action for compensation for breach of landlord's repairing obligations. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And... we'd be talking about the kinds of things which were brought out in the structural report I think there. [speaker001:] Mhm, that's, that's the report that erm, yeah. [speaker002:] You know, to do with con the construction of the flats.... [speaker001:] Mhm. So how l in terms of this, how long for this? [speaker002:] How long could this go on for? [speaker001:] It go on for, [bell ring] quite a while. [speaker002:] It could go on for years possibly. It might go on f... it, it, it could take two or three years. [speaker001:] Mhm. And how many of you working on that? Right, carrying on erm for the subject of erm compensation over and above erm that which is normally given to people who move from one place to another when, when they're, they're f h h have to be, [speaker002:] Compulsorily rehoused. [speaker001:] Yeah. Erm you've, you've said kind o you said erm the k you've ba told me the kind of case that, that one would try and present related to the fa the, you know, the erm the structure, the lack of repair of the flats. Erm so how many of you are actually involved you know, in the in erm the Law Centre? Is there a few of you who are actually involved in that kind of work? [speaker002:] Well this is been [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] th this is been, in, this particular aspect of the work is, is, is being done by John who's a solicitor. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And erm what kind of, what kind of support are you getting er from? What kind of response are you getting from tenants towards this work that you're doing? Were they are they aware of it? [speaker002:] To be, to be, to be honest, to be honest, I, I don't know what the, what, what, what's actually happening on a day-to-day basis with this. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm, it's a very long term thing, and John's been working through the tenants' action group on it so I personally don't know what, what the kind of take up is on that, er [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and wh and what the response of the tenants has been. So you'd have to ask him, [speaker001:] So ba but what you are, but what you are telling, what you have told me is that erm there is, there is erm work being done to try and get people compensation in addition to what they would normally get [speaker002:] I, I'm, I'm say I'm [speaker001:] as result of saying that there's a been an application for more money, Yeah. [speaker002:] to enable us to have a stru have another report done which would then be used as part of the evidence in conjunction with a test case, to [speaker001:] Where would the case actually s where would it go to, I mean say when you've got all the evidence? What do you do with it then? [speaker002:] Th well then we'd have to we'd have to present it. [speaker001:] To? [speaker002:] To the council. [speaker001:] Yeah. And so it would be a case of actually negotiating with the council hopefully? [speaker002:] Well, it'd be, it mi it might have to, it mi it might have to go, go [speaker001:] Go [speaker002:] through the courts.... [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But er I, you know, I don't really know what, where John's got to on that. So I can't really say. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm, I can only talk very generally about that. [speaker001:] Mhm. Er and on the basis of your knowledge I mean, in terms of the flats, when you've s you've been there f er and also you've erm worked with some of the tenants that have been down here, I mean how... what do you think er in terms of the living conditions, I mean how er in the flats, I mean how do they, how do you see them? [speaker002:] It's the, it's the typical concrete jungle. It's erm anonymous, and treeless and... empty. Erm once you go ins into the, into the complex the, the piazzas, the, the kind of squares, which, which o occupy the space between each erm block of, of flats are usually fairly empty. Erm there have been attempts to brighten them up at various times. There's a tenants hall which is very brightly painted. And there's a children's playground. Erm but on the,o on the whole these are areas which belong to no one. They erm... there's, there's less, there's less a feeling of community in there than there would be on the average street. Erm... and in a sense that might be because the, the flats, the area within the flat isn't a thoroughfare. It's, it's like a dead end. You only go into the flats if you're visiting someone or if you live there, so there's no, there's none of that hustle and bustle that you get on a, on a regular street. Erm... so I think possibly people don't really feel responsible for that, for those, that space within the flats which isn't actually right outside their front door. [speaker001:] Mhm. Do you think [speaker002:] And [speaker001:] that's, yeah... and [speaker002:] And it does have, it has a very bleak aspect to it, to me. Even on the brightest day it's erm it's, it, it's very grey and very very bleak. [speaker001:] Mhm. So what do you think, you know when, when, when people, if people don't feel that the area outside their door is a an area s you know that's part of their area, it's an area that they've got responsibility, what consequences does, do you think that has?... If they're i [speaker002:] I think it gives it an air of abandonment. Erm it isn't necessarily dirtier than the average street, it doesn't necessarily have more dog shit or more paper strewn around it... but neither does it have a, any sense of activity within it. I th I think I think that's the key, I think e I think there, there, there's, there's n there's no activity there's no communal activity.... And you get the feeling that people kind of beat a, a way through to their particular flat and out again, without looking either to left or right really. And that's a very extreme view and it's c but... er it's the impression that I've got of the flats. It's a very personal impression. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] Do you, have you had much contact erm with, with anyone who, with erm any parents at the flats that ha have been bringing up kids there? And any of their experiences? Or not? [speaker002:] Erm well I kn I've known, I've, I've, I know tenants in the flats who have got children, [speaker001:] Yeah. And [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] how do they... how do they feel?... You know about having t how do they feel in terms of bringing up kids in the flats? I mean do they have, do they have any views or? [speaker002:] Well as I say, I had, I don't, I haven't really had any involvement really with talking to people about their experience of living in the flats until people knew that they were going to be moved out eventually. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And that does tend to colour people's what people say, and what people think about it. Erm I don't know if I said this already, in this interview, but there does seem at the moment to be a general air of, of people waiting to move. Yeah, I think I have said that haven't I? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yeah.... Which kind of suspends their immediate problems. They, they kind of suspend their immediate problems as they wait to, to move out. To some extent.... [break in recording] [speaker001:] I think the last point we've, we were, we were er mentioning about erm bringing up erm young people in the flats. Erm in terms of bringing up young people in the flats, how do you s how do you see the, do you think it's... a good area, or a, or a, or, or erm a bad area to bring up kids? Cos quite a g quite a few young people have actually been brought up in the flats, haven't they? I mean [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] there's quite a lot have moved out now, but erm still are some there I think.... And how do you see it as being an area to bring up kids?... [speaker002:] In the flats themselves? [speaker001:] Yeah, in the flats themselves, living in the flats, I mean s... have to look at the actual local facilities as well, I mean they're, I mean I suppose that's a factor as well to take into account? [speaker002:] Yeah.... The flats themselves are, are quite big I think, and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] quite big enough for, for fa for a small family. Small depending on how many bedrooms there are. Erm... but I think the problems to do with the flats are the, the kind of overall problems of access to the flats and er the, the, the, the actual structural condition of conditions of the flats. The dampness, condensation which is very bad for young babies for example, elderly people, erm and the condition of the, of the, of the space between the flats erm which [speaker001:] So you're talking about wh wh the condition of the space between the flats aren't you? [speaker002:] I'm talking about, I'm talking about the s the, the open spaces between the flats, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and the problem of access to the flats, and sometimes the necessity to walk quite a long way before you can get out onto the street, which would be a problem for young mothers with, with, with small children, as equally it would be a problem for elderly people or disabled people. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er and that is, that is one of the problems... within the flats, that having got, once got into the complex you might have quite a long way to go before you actually find where you're going. Equally erm, and this is a kind of aside, there's the problem for the newcomer of not knowing how the flats Where, you know where each flat, where each block is, so you get in there and you and you're trying to find, for example, or wherever, and you haven't got a clue, [LAUGHTER] sort of where to start Erm... it's a bit like, it's a [speaker001:] Is that yeah. [speaker002:] bit like a maze in that sense. [speaker001:] Is that the way you found it when you first started erm [speaker002:] Wh when we first started working there, we, we went right round all the flats, and we put, put leaflets in every door, so we, we got [speaker001:] That was with regard to er [speaker002:] That was with regard to the advice sessions, the [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] weekly advice sessions. So we actually saw it all, erm it's actually quite a lot bigger than it looks. There's a lot more flats there than you would even think of. It's amazing. Lots, it's quite a small area, but they're really quite, quite neatly packed in. [sniff] Mm. [speaker001:] Mhm. And you, you touched on erm the problems that erm so that living in the flats can have for somebody who's disabled, or elderly. Do you feel that, do you feel that those are raised or not? Do you feel that the flats are not particularly suitable for, for those groups? Do you think fo do you think that who was disabled [speaker002:] Would have difficulty pro possibly in actually getting to their flat. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm the actual geogo the geography of the flats isn't, isn't conducive to easy access within, within the complex.... [speaker001:] You said also that yo that there could be problems with young mothers? [speaker002:] For the same reason. [speaker001:] Yeah, for the same reason. And also for the er elderly as well. [speaker002:] Yeah.... And also having got into the f into the complex, I think maybe having said that the spaces, you know the, the space between the blocks is erm isn't cared for erm [speaker001:] In terms of it not being cared for, yeah, I mean who do you [speaker002:] I don't mean not ca [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] not, I don't mean not clean or not, not tidy, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean having no s no it has no,th there is no collective responsibility for it. It, it, it doesn't make you feel, it possibly wouldn't make people feel very happy about having to walk a long, a long way within the complex, once having got into it. You might want to be able to sort of get to their flat very quickly. [speaker001:] Mhm. T and one final question. Erm we touched on quite a few of the, quite a few of the erm [cough] bad points about living in the flats. Would you sa you know on the basis of erm your contact with, with tenants erm in terms of living in flats, are, are there any good points that people have made about living there t I mean [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. I mean [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it's ver a very central, I mean [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] they're in a very good position. Very prime, prime position for shops, and [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] for local and for sort of local amenities, for the forest, it's very close to the forest. It's on a main shopping route into the city centre. Erm it's [phone rings] [telephone conversation starts] Hello [telephone conversation ends]?... [break in recording] [speaker001:] Right erm before we broke off erm this last question I'm going to ask you, you were s you were saying about erm in terms of erm some of the good points of h the, you were talking about it being pretty central erm for buses erm being near the forest erm what about erm in terms of local shops? I mean what, what've you found? Do people, do people t tend to use those? [speaker002:] Oh yes, very much. I mean a lot of people who live on the don't go into town at all. [LAUGHTER] Don't know where it is []. [LAUGHTER] Erm and they use local shops almost exclusively. So is a i i it, it is a very thriving area, it is a very thriving shopping centre for the people who live in the immediate area. [speaker001:] Mhm. What about the facilities for local people? I mean do, do people find, tend to see those as being... a plus or not?... you know, [speaker002:] How do you mean? [speaker001:] facilities other than shops, er erm [speaker002:] What you mean like the boys' club? [speaker001:] Yeah, er [speaker002:] Erm yes er there's, there's a community centre on. [speaker001:] Yeah. Now what's [speaker002:] Yeah. that? Yeah, what That belongs to the church, St Paul's Church. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm there's [speaker001:] What kind of contact, do they have much contact with the people in the flats?..., you not sure if you're not [speaker002:] Y I don't know, you'd have to ask them. [speaker001:] sure on that [speaker002:] No, I'm not sure on that. There's what's the boys' club, there's a library. There's erm a community arts centre, which is used by both individuals and groups within the area. Erm, and there's the youth and community centre which is on the corner of and. So there is quite a, a concentration of activity within the area. Whether or not that is actually used by the people who live in the flats, I don't know, to be honest. That would have to, that would have to come out of any kind of interview with workers in those other groups really. [speaker001:] Right, thanks very much, thank you.

[speaker002:] Right so so we have erm the Neighbourhood Hous Housing Officer and the, the Area Housing Officer. Erm how do you, what's, what's, how do the roles actually differ? [speaker001:] Erm, well, there's sort of five staff [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] here at [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] at the office. Two Area Housing Officers management, erm one Area Housing Officer technical, a clerical [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and a Neighbourhood Housing Officer. I'm responsible for the sort of overall management, but I tend not to get out as much as say, Area Housing Officers, they're more sort of at grass roots. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Erm sort of I may deal with sort of solicitors letter, that sort, the, the more complicated legal side, and, and that sort of thing. Erm distribute work out to, to officers and they report back if there's problems with it or, or that sort of thing. [speaker002:] Mhm. erm in your case you worked at erm another neighbourhood office prior to erm, and how does it compare working? [speaker001:] Yeah, prior to, prior to coming to Hyson Green, I worked at, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and then previously I worked at neighbourhood office, and I only came to when it had be d been declared a clearance area, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] so it was totally different work from what I'd been used to. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Erm but it w saw it as a useful experience in a clearance exercise, which [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I'd never been involved in before as an Area Housing Officer, and just involved with day to day management, but with it being a clearance area it's a totally different approach, and the sort of things that you deal with are totally different as well. [speaker002:] Mhm. So what are the areas of work that you've been involved in? What are the [speaker001:] Previously? [speaker002:] Yeah, previous, and how, and how's, and how's, does it yeah, well, here, right? T what, what's the kind of work that you are now involved in? What, what's your [speaker001:] Well before,y you tended [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to deal with re-letting the property, normal [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] day to day transfers, neighbour problems, that sort of thing. Now you're involved with finding people alternative accommodation. Erm there's no choice everybody's got to move, and you're more involved with the, the removal of people, sort of, the sort of problems that they encounter finding removal firms, connection of electricity at the new places, and all that sort of thing. [speaker002:] Mhm. In terms of the Neighbourhood Housing Office, what are the, what are the origins behind that, cos this is... cos this i this actual, it's actually situated, isn't it, within the flats, erm do you think that was a deliberate decision made that it should be part of the flats rather than somewhere outside, [speaker001:] Yeah, it's part of erm the housing policy erm [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] to basically decentralize erm er N c the city of Nottingham. Erm they, they picked out erm particular areas where there were a lot of pe there were problems within that area erm whether it be normal management problems or erm racial issues, I E there is a particular area, there is a high density of black people erm er the properties them themselves weren't up erm of a particularly high quality, erm they decided to decentralize and i and do an intensive management area for that area. Erm and so they set up a team erm four or five teams within the city, er which included Radford, the Crabtree Meadows area, erm and Bestwood area [speaker002:] Mhm. Yeah, how does it actually differ, this kind of office and the roles that [speaker001:] It's [speaker002:] compared with the typical traditional Housing Officer? [speaker001:] Housing Officer, yeah. Erm you basically erm deal with erm the tenants on a more personal basi basis, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] you, you, you see them as erm er er you know you t you speak to them on erm christian name terms, you, you help them with any kind of erm social problem or welfare problem they may have. It's not a par erm not particularly a housing problem. Erm you, you're in fact a er everybody, er every Housing Officer erm... oh what was I going to say? They, they're sort of like a probation officer, social worker, that sort of thing, erm most people come to us with all sorts of problems not just not particularly housing problems. [speaker003:] And you're on site, you're about [speaker001:] And you're on site, yeah, yeah. You're just [speaker003:] two minutes away, aren't you? [speaker001:] Yeah, they see you every day, they you know and [speaker003:] You use the same shops and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] you know. [speaker002:] Mhm. How good would you say the relationship has been between erm the Housing, Housing Office and the tenants, how is the relationship for all of you? [speaker001:] I think generally, there, there is erm a decent rapport between us and the tenants, er because yo we, we do explain to them erm you know what we can do, and what we can't do. The they're never sort of given feeble excuses, we are erm very truthful with them,i in order to make them understand that, you know, there are limitations erm within our jobs as well, cos a lot of people expect things, and erm you may promise them, well other people may promise them, and it's not delivered then of course it's sort of them and us, and we, we try to dispel that idea, it's not them [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and us. We're here to serve them, that's why we're being paid. Er we we're here to give them a decent service, and we'll do our utmost to do that, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and help done. [speaker003:] Obviously you can't please everybody, [speaker001:] Everybody. You are going to get people who are, who are

[speaker001:] Right then Leona er when did you move to the flats? [Tiffany:] [crying] [Leona:] December eighty one. [speaker001:] And erm where did you move from? [Leona:] I was near at the time, with Tiffany, in Mansfield. [Tiffany:] [crying] [speaker001:] . And before that? [Leona:] Before that I was erm living with some fr friends in Liverpool. And before that I was m back in Nottingham. [speaker001:] Where did you originate from? [Leona:] Nottingham. [speaker001:] Where about? [Leona:] Edge Lane estate. It's in between Sherwood and Bestwood. [speaker001:] Did you live there with your parents? [Tiffany:] [crying] [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] Was it, did you have any er any brothers or sisters? [Leona:] I've got... I've got two brothers and one sister. [speaker001:] Do they live in Nottingham? [Tiffany:] [crying] [Leona:] My sister lives in Edinburgh, me two brothers live in Nottingham. [speaker001:] Do they live in the flats? [Leona:] No. Ted used to. He used to live on the erm in the, but he doesn't any more. [speaker001:] When did he move out? [Leona:] Ooh. About eighteen month ago. Might be more, yeah about eighteen month ago. [speaker001:] Was that to move to another council house? [Leona:] No, bought his own house.... [speaker001:] Erm compared to other places you've lived in erm how does this flat stand up to the comparison? [Leona:] Well, I mainly, up until, when I started to live on my own, I mainly lived in bed and breakfasts, or shared houses, so this is one of the better sort. [LAUGHTER] Really.. It's really my ow first very own place of my own.... [speaker001:] Do you like it? [Leona:] No. I never have liked it. [speaker001:] Why not?... [Leona:] Well... for a start half of them, the shape of them isn't very conven it's not very good for ar arranging things. And er you can't really do much because of the stone walls and there's too much window and too much noise, and you get quite a few insects in them, and... they're just generally not very nice at all. In fact there's only two good points about them and that's you've always got hot water, and your h heating, you're always warm. That's the only two good points about them. [speaker001:] You say you had, the shape of the rooms, what sort [Leona:] Mhm. Well I mean l l look at this shape, I mean it's a like an L shape, it's erm very unpractical. I mean having to come upstairs before you even get into the house isn't very good either, cos I mean with kids you've got to carry the pushchairs up and everything and carry kids up and carry all your shopping up, it's not, it's not very practical having them upstairs. [speaker001:] Erm,y y you say the heating's alright? [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm... I mean does it deliver enough heat all the time? [Leona:] Most of the time, yeah, I mean, they're usually very good. I've only had ever about two complaints in four and a half years, and that's not very bad, that's only because the filter needed cleaning, mostly. [speaker001:] What about your hot water? Do you get that? Is that [Leona:] Mhm. [speaker001:] part of it? [Leona:] Oh yeah. It's always there, I mean erm... that's one of the advantages you can have a bath every day. That's something I'll miss when I move, cos paying for it, you don't, well I know you pay for it here, but it's all in and [Tiffany:] [scream] [Leona:] Oi!... [break in recording] [speaker001:] Er now why did you actually move to the flats? [Leona:] Cos it was the only, it was either here or the Balloon Woods, cos I was er I was given an emergency placing, it was either here or Balloon Woods, and at the time I didn't fancy Balloon Woods, but I wish I'd taken it now, I'd be, I'd have my own [LAUGHTER] place by [] [speaker001:] Erm... so, you, you were on emergency, is that because you're a single parent? [Leona:] Mm, yeah. [speaker001:] Er... you say there was a choice between this and Balloon Woods, why did you actually choose? [Leona:] Well, cos it was in town, it was nearer to shops, and erm I'd heard that keeping Balloon Woods' flats warm was costing people a hell of a lot of money. Cos it was in with the electric bills, and I didn't want that, and that was one of the advantages that made me decide to have here, cos I knew that the heating was in with the rent.... [speaker001:] Erm, so did you have any friends when on the estate at first? [Leona:] Not at the time, no, but I'm, I knew people that were on here, from other places you know, so I met [Tiffany:] [crying] [Leona:] other people, so [speaker001:] How do you find it, erm er socializing with people? [Leona:] You can't really around here, cos everybody's suspicious of everybody else.... And er as I say, the only people I know on here now, are people that I've met actually off here. Or through people that I knew before. [speaker001:] You say people are suspicious of each other wh wh what do you mean by that? [Leona:] Well, I mean... erm I dunno really, you sort of get the feeling that they're suspicious, cos I mean there's so many things go on here, that they're not sure erm about you, I mean if somebody else doesn't know you, then they're not sure about you. [Tiffany:] [scream] [speaker001:] So d what sort of things go on in the flats? [Leona:] Well... booze erm drugs, prostitution, that sort of thing. [speaker001:] And d d th th do they actually go on, or is it, sort of exaggerated? [Leona:] It's not exaggerated. It does go on. [speaker001:] Er, do you think it gives a particularly bad name? [Leona:] Oh yes, it definitely does.... [speaker001:] Er did you know about this [LAUGHTER] when you were [] offered the flat? Did you know it had [Leona:] Oh yeah, oh yeah.... I knew about it. [speaker001:] But it didn't bother [Leona:] No, cos I knew I wouldn't associate with erm erm people and I wouldn't get into it. I mean, I'm not messing against what anybody else does, and I wouldn't try and interfere with what anybody else does, but I wouldn't get involved with them. [speaker001:] Right Leona, can you, can you just go over s the places you lived in before you actually moved to the flat? [Leona:] Well I've lived in quite a few places, I've, I say, before I came here, I was at mother and baby Home, and before that I was living with friends in Liverpool, and before that I was in Nottingham at a bed and breakfast place, lodgings, and er [speaker001:] Were they, was that through the council? [Leona:] No it wasn't. No. And then erm, before that I got, I was living with friends again, in Nottingham. And then erm I was at home for a while, and then I was living with friends in Birmingham, and in, in between time I've been to Leeds and London. Not for very long though, but erm most of the time I spent away living in Birmingham.... [speaker001:] And you say you've never lived anywhere sort of similar to the flats? You've not lived [Leona:] No. [speaker001:] in. So they've, have they been terraced or something like that? [Leona:] Yeah, one, I shared a house in er, in Forest Fields, [speaker001:] Where, where's that? [Leona:] Forest Fields. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Leona:] I shared a house there. And erm, so I haven't really had a place of my own until I got this one, and it's usually lodgings or sharing. [speaker001:] Yeah. Now erm... there are quite a few sort of single parents on the, the flats, now erm... are there any problems that you've had which possibly other people have had, with living in the flats? Any er particularly bad points that make it difficult for you? [Leona:] Well, erm I... I have been accosted a few times to do a few things, you know erm... like I say, prostitution, they think probably because you're on your own, everybody else, because one, say one person in the block is one, then you are one as well, you know. You're tarred with the same brush. And erm...? Plus I have had, I have been m mugged while I have been out. I had my purse pinched, that wasn't very good. Erm and you do feel shut in at nights when you're on your own. Erm... which isn't any help at all, it shows the people they're on their own anyway, cos you feel more lonely that way.... You get more lonely, which doesn't help in here, and I mean say, I mean the view isn't very n... this view is very drab, and if you'd got something to look at it wouldn't... wouldn't matter so much, but erm [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [children] [Leona:] Not re... [break in recording] [speaker001:] Okay. [Leona:] Yeah, and it's, it's very lonely in here if you don't really know people. Erm especially now that everybody's moving away and most of the people you know have probably gone, or going, or they probably won't be moving near you any more. [speaker001:] Did y you said that you had your purse stolen, did someone actually break into the flat? [Leona:] No, I was walking up the ramps and it was ripped out of my hand actually.... I, cos I had the strap on my arm, it was pulled off that. [speaker001:] Did you actually, did you go to the police about it? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Did they do anything? [Leona:] No. What could they do? You know, it happens quite a few times, doesn't it? [speaker001:] Erm... so y you never got it back, or anything? [Leona:] No. [speaker001:] So are y I don't think we actually established, are, are you erm are you unemployed? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So you're on Supplementary? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm, have you had any jobs in the past, have you worked in the past? [Leona:] , I was seventeen, I worked at the Flying Horse. [speaker001:] It's a pub isn't it? [Leona:] Yeah, it's a pub cum hotel, it's a hotel thing. [speaker001:] Erm how'd you find it living on the money get on Social Security? [Leona:] It's difficult, but you can manage. I mean anyone who says they can't manage on what they get, er they can't feed the kids on what they get, probably go in the pubs five or si six nights a week, and smoke too much and but erm... I mean these never go without a meal or anything like that. I mean we're no when we have s like egg and chips, it's cos we want to, not because we've got to.... You know? [speaker001:] I mean do you manage to keep s sort of quite a good diet? Or do y [Leona:] Oh yeah. I mean every Sunday, we have a, a Sunday dinner, I mean it's usually chicken, cos it's the cheapest one there is, but I mean we still have a Sunday dinner, we have fresh veg and everything. I mean there's not many, probably not many families round here that could say that. [speaker001:] Do you actually shop locally then? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And erm how, how do you, do you do your shopping, do you do it once every fortnight, or do you...? [Leona:] No, I er do it as I need it actually. I mean I get a few things in every week that, you know that you need, that you know... er I go out on Monday and get everything else for the week like washing powder, and that sort of thing but u for food, I just get it every day. [speaker001:] Do you go into the centre much? [Leona:] About once a week. [speaker001:] What's that, is that for shop food and things? [Leona:] No, just to go out, cos I'm wanting... [Tiffany:] [crying] [Leona:] just to go out on a Monday with her, cos she doesn't have nursery on a Monday, Tiffany. So we go out and have a meal out. I mean I can have, even afford meals out. [speaker001:] So do you budget quite tightly then? [Leona:] Mhm. I mean even when I smoked I did. I mean I, I could s I could still get what I needed. [speaker001:] Do you think a lot of people do that, or do you think you're particularly sort of [Leona:] I don't know, people l I'm of them say they can't afford to pay the kids, and get the food for the kids, and they'll have to give them chips a couple of, every day of the week or whatever, but th there's no need for that. I mean if, if people smoke too much, I mean they should put the kids before the c the cigarettes, and erm... people I have heard say that, I've seen in the pub three or four nights a week. If they can afford to go there, then why don't they, you know, if you have two pints in there I mean it's, it's a meal really, cos I, I could give these kids a meal for about a one pound, one pound fifty. And that's, that's feeding us. [speaker001:] Do, do you go out to the pub much yourself? [Leona:] No. I don't. [speaker001:] so you don't go out for drinks,? [Leona:] No, I mean, last time I went out would be erm well I've been out in the afternoon a few times, with my boyfriend, but, the last time I went out in the evening [Tiffany:] [scream] [Leona:] would be about eighteen month ago. And it doesn't bother me cos I put their, them first. [speaker001:] D so I mean what do you find to do, I mean, how do you spend your time? [Leona:] Oh, me and my boyfriend play cards, and watch telly, and that sort of thing. Play dominoes. [speaker001:] Right, so you sort of er find activities that you can actually [Leona:] Yeah, do in the house. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Leona:] Do together. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [children]... [speaker001:] Er y... do you find it difficult to find people to look after the children, or is it just that you, you wouldn't want to go out? [Leona:] No, I could get a baby-sitter, it's just that I don't want to go out. I mean my, my money is erm... [speaker001:] Mm. [Leona:] you know, the money is put towards their f food and things, rather than giving it to somebody else [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker001:] Er where, where do the erm children go in the day time? Do they go to a play er s school? [Leona:] Well, erm, Adrian goes on a Mondays and Tuesdays to nursery, and on a Wednesdays and Fridays to his dad, and Tiffany goes on a Tuesday and Thursday and Friday to nursery. [speaker001:] Which nursery's that? [Leona:] . [speaker001:] How did you get the n th the them into that? [Leona:] Well she need needed it for erm her speech, and then when he came along, he just nearly automatically got one because everybody got one in really. Well, not automatically, but they thought it would be a good idea to have him in. To [speaker001:] What [Leona:] keep an eye on him, see if his speech was too slow in talking.... [speaker001:] Erm w why didn't you send them to the ones on the fla on the flats? [Leona:] I couldn't get them in there.... [speaker001:] Was it full? [Leona:] Mhm. I mean there's not really one in the flats that is suitable really.... [speaker001:] Wh wh what do you mean, what's [Leona:] I mean, they need a nursery not a playgroup, there's a difference. [speaker001:] I see. Erm... d d do your children have, have many friends on the flats? Do they mix with the children in the flats? [Leona:] No, no. She's got one friend over there, erm on, but not really.... Not really, no. [speaker001:] Do you let them out to play [Leona:] No.... [speaker001:] Why's that? Because you think they're too young or what? [Leona:] I don't erm, yeah, I do think they're too young to be out here, because er you can't keep an eye on them. Especially nowadays, with things going, I mean I'm not saying really round here like that, but you never know do you?... [Tiffany:] [scream] [speaker001:] Right, now you've said where you've, where you've lived before and how you got here erm now you're on the phasing aren't you? Er [Leona:] Yeah, in fact I've got a, I've been allocated a place, but it's not ready for me yet. [speaker001:] Yeah. So you're, you're, you're pha I mean phase four right? [Leona:] Phase four, yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Now,wh wh where did you put your name down to go? [Leona:] Bilborough, Sherwood or Woollaton. As I say, I've got a house in Woollaton, but it's not ready yet. They're doing it up, or doing something to it. [speaker001:] What, why did you decide to go to those areas? [Leona:] Well, Bilborough, my mother lives at Bilborough, I thought it'd be nice to be near her, my dad lives up Sherwood, and I used to, I used to live up Sherwood, it's a good place and got a good school. And I think Woollaton speaks for itself, I mean it's [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] don't you []? [speaker001:] Erm so what's, what's the place like that you got? [Leona:] Three-bedroomed house, front and back garden. And I haven't, as I say I haven't seen it yet, but erm I've had a look at it but not actually been inside it, because they're doing, still doing it up. [speaker001:] And is it the sort of place you were looking for? [Leona:] Mhm. Three bedroom and everything. Yeah.... [speaker001:] Erm will you be glad to move out of the flats? [Leona:] Definitely. Definitely. [speaker001:] Will there be anything you miss about them? [Leona:] As I say, only the heating and the hot water.... That I must technically pay for it.... [speaker001:] Do you think you'll be able to ma [Leona:] That is the only thing. [speaker001:] Do you think you'll be able to manage with the bills and that? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] ... Right then. Now, you worked for the erm the tenants' action group, didn't you for a time? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] . How wh when was that?... [Leona:] Erm... about nineteen eighty two to three, it'd be. [speaker001:] Wh what, what was actually going on at the tenants' group then? [Leona:] A a at the time, they were trying to get this place looked at and surveyed, and everything to get it, you know to see what they could do about it, get it closed down, but er they hadn't got that far with that then. Erm they hadn't got a survey going, they'd got coming round to have a look at it, and they'd got the environmental health from London to have a survey of it, and er everything. [speaker001:] Y you were secretary weren't you? [Leona:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm what, what was the feeling that came over to you from the tenants' group at the time? Did it feel like it was a well-organized group, or did it feel? [Leona:] Well a a a at the time, they'd just changed over from the erm Tenants' Development Association, to the Tenants' Action Group, so it was a bit disorganized to begin with, cos we were still sorting out the, everything from what they'd left over and things, so, but once we'd got that all so once they'd got that all sorted out, yeah, it was.... [speaker001:] Erm, did you think it reflected the views of the tenants? [Leona:] Most of them, yeah. Most of them. About ninety percent of them. [speaker001:] And did you have anything to do with the Development Association? [Leona:] No I didn't. [speaker001:] . So y y you wouldn't know about the ins and outs of what went on when they? [Leona:] No. [speaker001:] Mhm. Erm erm... so y you were, you were with the tenants' erm association, eighty two eighty three? [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm, have you had anything to do with them since? Have you [Leona:] No, not really, no. [speaker001:] Do, have you, do you go to the meetings? [Leona:] No. [speaker001:] Is that, what, cos you know you're moving out now? [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] . Erm... I just want to go back and talk about a few things we just touched on earlier. Er now you were saying about crime in the area. Erm have y you had your, your purse stolen? [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] Have, have you ever had trouble with kerb crawlers or anything like that? [Leona:] Well a couple of times. But er maybe once or twice, as I say I usually go out with my kids, and they don't usually stop you. look at me but otherwise, you know, they don't usually stop you if you've got a kid with you. [speaker001:] And can you... does it, I mean obviously it bothers you, but I mean... [Leona:] Well I just tell them to get lost in not so [LAUGHTER] polite words []. [speaker001:] So what, what do you actually think about the er the prostitutes, and...? [Leona:] Well, I mean er I've got nothing against them. I mean, in fact I, I'm one of the people that believe that in, in a way it should be, it should be legalized.... I think it should be legalized. But erm, it's the kerb crawlers, I mean I've always thought that if it wasn't for prostitutes, there's going to be a hell of a lot more rapes around, so [speaker001:] Mm. [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] So just keeping on the same sort of subject, of sex, drugs and, [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] violence, erm the other people I've spoken to have mentioned blues parties, now d have you ever had? [Leona:] Yeah, I've had blues parties next door. [speaker001:] Could you just t tell me about what actually happened? [Leona:] Well it wasn't too bad actually, cos when I went upstairs and shut every door and I wouldn't, didn't really hear anything.... next door didn't really bother me, cos once I'd shut the door, shut the doors, it was, there was hardly any noise, but then erm... the guy that had got the place, he wasn't living there, lent it out to somebody else, blues, and they moved them u upstairs as well. And erm I wasn't actually in the bedroom, and that did bother me. I had one night of that, and when he came round in the morning, I told him. I mean luckily enough, I went to junior school with him. I mean if I hadn't have known him, then there's no way I could have talked to him about it. I mean I says, look I says, I'm not, I'm not saying you can't have your parties or whatever, I says but I says not in the bedrooms.... I says, er that that is going a bit too far, I think. [speaker001:] Erm how loud were they? I mean did they keep you awake? [Leona:] Very loud that night, very loud. I say, the other night, I say it didn't really bother me, but like I'm a heavy sleeper anyway. But I could just not get to sleep that night, and she was only a baby at the time, she couldn't sleep.... [speaker001:] Er what, what, what time did they start and finish, did the blues parties? [Leona:] Erm, about one o'clock, and finished about half past six, seven.... [speaker001:] Mm do you get any trouble from the people coming out of the parties, or going in, did they? [Leona:] No, the door knocked once or twice, but I mean that, that didn't bother me, so I was asleep m most of the time. [speaker001:] Erm er... is, is that the only experience you've had with blues parties? [Leona:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm... right now, now you mention that you phoned the police about when you had your purse stolen, erm are y have, what do you think of the police presence around the flats? I mean is it helpful, or, or what? [Leona:] Non-existent. And if it is, I mean they don't do much. Erm [speaker001:] Have you seen policemen patrolling the flats? [Leona:] Oh yeah, I've seen them. I've seen them, but I mean if, if they saw anything, I think they'd just turn a blind eye to most of it.... Mm. [speaker001:] Have, have you seen anything like that happen, or is...? [Leona:] Well I don't know how true it is but I have heard from somebody I know, whose husband was a... a plumber, and he came to unplug a toilet at the erm Cricket Players when it closed down, he had to unplug it. And he found a hell of a lot of flesh down the toilet, human flesh. And he said from the looks of it there must have been you know sort of dead, whatever it was, and there was a couple of fingers and a couple of toes, right? But erm police went to visit him again, and says erm you know that's it, you know, you won't, won't, you won't even be needed to make a statement about where you found it, which he thought was a bit funny. I mean whether they hushed it up or not I don't know.... But I mean I say, I don't know how true that is, I mean I only heard that through somebody else.... [speaker001:] I see. Er talking about er plumbers and er people like that, have erm have, how are you finding getti getting things repaired in the flat? [Leona:] Well I had to, I had to wait for about eight months or was it s six months to get one of my lights fixed but for er other things they were quite quick actually. [speaker001:] Is that by using the Housing Office on the flat? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Are they very helpful there? [Leona:] Mm. Yes. I found them so. [speaker001:] Do you think it helps them being up with the? [Leona:] Oh yeah. Er I think it does, I think they should have one, one of those sort of places in every not in every complex, but in every estate.... [speaker001:] D do you think your, your... amenity-wise er the flats like they they've got the housing, and the clubs and the playgroup and stuff like that, do you think you're very badly off for that or? [Leona:] No no, amenity-wise, you're okay, but I mean amenities doesn't make up for sort of living standards you've got, does it?... [speaker001:] S so I mean do you try and u do you use things around the area? Er [Leona:] Not much no. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Wh why's that? [Leona:] Because I just don't go out much, that's all. [speaker001:] Mm.... Do you think is a [Leona:] [talking to child] Shh. [speaker001:] particularly friendly place or? [Leona:] No.... No.... [speaker001:] Er what makes you say that? [Leona:] Cos I haven't found it so, that's why. [speaker001:] But I mean... d do you think the people are more unfriendly around here than they are in other parts of the town? [Leona:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Just the people living around here?... Did erm [Leona:] Yeah, I think it's b as I say it's because I think people are wary I mean... you know, not sure who's who.... [speaker001:] Er do you find people mix around here very well though? I mean,s I mean there's, it's a multi-racial area. Do you think that people mix well, or is it a, do, do you feel [Leona:] No everybody keeps themselves to themselves, I think which is a shame really, cos erm I think they do that all over the country anyway, most of them, they keep themselves to themselves.... [speaker001:] Right. Now... you're moving to Bilborough, you're moving to Bilborough erm just say in five years time they got rid of the flats erm and they built houses on here on the site, would you move back? [Leona:] No. [talking to child] Shh shh. [speaker001:] Erm is that because of the v the area, or because? [Leona:] Well, I'll be settled in, in my own little place by then, I mean I don't want to move back here, plus that fact that I, I wouldn't want to move back here anyway....

[Lewis:] Thank you very much for supporting the evening, nice to see so many faces, as I said especially on a summer evening like today. We didn't really get an Indian summer right on the [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] Erm, just to give you something of my credentials for being here, er the name is, is Lewis. Erm I took a degree in textiles in the late fifties and I've specialized in the design, development and manufacture of knitted outer-wear ever since. A number of companies throughout the country, er Derbyshire, been in Scotland with a company called in the er in er in the border country. [cough] and in varied places. the Courtauld, one of the big Courtauld companies in the late sixties, early sixties. And then ten years ago I started my own company er started in a very small way to begin with. Just two machines, four people and gradually that got up to a reasonable size er i it grew on the back of companies like,,, manufacturing what I call the coordinated look cos knitwear was utilized for bringing other things together. I mean you see it today, don't you? In the nice shops, you see a nice er woven skirt, woven, nice blouse, the knitwear brings it all together. That's how we built our company, and we did maximize from the hundred and thirty girls from three years ago. Erm but I put the company into liquidation at that point, because of the problems we were all having in industry, and started again about a year, two years ago. Now we're back to six people again and they're all working for me in a very small way. Again working with the same sort of people, but in a very small and for our own as well. So that's the nature of the world to day, you have to move with the times, it's going to be a but er this is how we survive. It's one of the reasons we're doing this as well, because it gets our products out of the people directly. So that's er I mean you probably know we do, I do a talk erm I call it a story rather than a talk, and I say I hope it's interesting as a story. It's about the craft of knitwear and how it's developed from hand-knitting into the modern production units there are today. And what influenced that er development. The sort of things briefly are, obviously demand, the machine development, new materials new yarns, fashion and design. They're the elements that have changed what knitwear is from what it was. [cough] So erm in [speaker002:] [cough] [Lewis:] to start the, the talk or the story by asking er ladies here, if they know where the, or the know where knitwear started as a craft, the actual first knitted fabric started? Anybody any ideas? [speaker002:] Wales. [Lewis:] Wales is an interesting one, sorry? [speaker002:] Ireland. [Lewis:] Ireland, there's another. any more? [speaker002:] What about Nottinghamshire? [Lewis:] What about Nottinghamshire, yeah [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] Er no, I'm talking about before that. [speaker002:] Oh. [Lewis:] I'm talking about really [speaker002:] [background to following] [Lewis:] when it started. [speaker002:] Lancashire. [Lewis:] Yeah, it's amazing we're all thinking about the U K aren't we? [speaker002:] [background to following] Babylon. [Lewis:] Would you believe, yes,. Actually it started in Arabia. Which is amazing isn't it? I was in, I was in the industry for thirty years before I realized or find out that it's an Arabian craft. And the evidence for this was found, the very first fabric or the earliest fab was found, in Spain, on the pillow of the tomb of one of the great Moorish lords. It had survived because it had got a metallic thread running through it. And so the pillow shape was there and it, and the knitted there. And that was something like er two hundred A D. And we know. And we know that from that it went back to B C, we can trace it back to B C from Arabia. But it's in having said that it's an interesting fact that the knitted fabric as such we know, is a warm sort of comfortable fabric and it's obviously used in where I call the, the cold climes, and that, that's why it's developed in the very areas we've been talking about. It developed in the northern er northern hemisphere, so Scotland, Ireland, the Yorkshire coast, anywhere where there was er outside er employment like the fishermen or places like er Yorkshire, all those areas have got their own knitted. So it was developed by the ladies of the day for the men to do their work and they developed their special patterns like Arran stitches, which I'm going to show you now, like Fair Isle stitches. They were developed at that time as a useful product for the, for the menfolk. There's the Arran, we all know the classic Arran, there's hundreds of them, and there's a more modern one but that's the traditional one there. And that's a traditional one that's been made for in a modern, modern colour. I mean they didn't have them in those colours in those days, that was the true Arran. In black wool, navy or this sort of colour. Always knitted in oil. So that it er er push off the water, kept the water at bay. But that was er what was n knitted by the ladies and you can see, if you look at the patterns, what they did, once they'd learnt their basic skills, were to copy the things they could see. So what you see there, that Arran, if you all, actually a net, the knitting, so their husbands were fishermen and that's a net. And the cables that you see running down the sides, they're the ropes. So they copied the things that the men could, they could see themselves and may be using. One of the gruesome factors about this particular stitch in the Arran is that every family had its own pattern and the reason for that was often the menfolk were lost at sea and the only way they could identify them was through the pattern. Gruesome but true fact of life. So there's the Arran, er still up into Scotland, still on these Highlands Scotland we have the Fair Isle. That's two or three years ago. I'll always keep it because it shows the original sort of colours that Fair Isles were made in. These are earthy colours. Very nice, subtle. Very fashionable about a year and a half ago again, because all these things come round again don't they? Arrans and the Fair Isles, all come back. Although a traditional pattern they do come back. In fact I did one for, for erm one on for two years I think to ab about the same as that, just in pretty colours, but it went on and on. Cos it's fashionable at the time. Now er the things that of course was er was only different skill using colours and patterns but y y you understand that the Fair Isles were developed on pins, and you notice the patterns were always small and I think you know the practical reasons for that. Because you can't have a long float on the back. Impractical for a man cos he push his fingers through the So that's why the patterns were always small. Interesting little about the garment. And traditional patterns... from the Ganzies or the Guernseys. Now that's a modern version, again I made that for a couple of years ago but the tradition there was you knitted on hands and you ladies will probably know, four pins, no seams, all on the circular, right up to the neck and then the cast on the sleeve there and again, no seams. Circular and that was cast on so there was no rough seams to work on, and the same with the collar. So you could wear them under the heavy o oil skin or whatever else they wore on top, and it looked a very comfortable garment, apart from the waterproof. And again you see the patterns are traditional baskets, er, ladders. Anything to do with the, the ladies could see and translate. Right? So just one more of the traditional ones and the historical ones. There's a Fair Isle but that's a Norwegian because this was happening in Norway, Iceland, everything that, in the cold climes where they've got a nice woollen spun yarn. That's a Fair Isle again, but can you see the Icelandic coast which they're very famous for. You've probably seen some of these that are brushed, they get a very heavy brushing on them make almost into coats. They look like goats and they're beautifully made garments and very warm. That's the Icelandic so there's some of the historical things that ladies had learned to do with their hands knitted on pins of various er calibres or d degrees, gauges as I call them. Broomsticks through to little, little pins. Er and they developed these skills, as I said earlier, basically for their husbands for use in inclement weather and gradually as they obviously got to m make more and more they got these to trade. So they traded them just as we traded with the wool and we're talking twelfth century thirteenth century, fourteenth century. And guilds were formed so that they could trade these garments around the country and eventually around Europe. We became very famous for exporting wool er woollen clothes and knitwear. By this time gloves were being made, hands were er hats were being made, scarves were getting made, all on hand knit. No, you know happens doesn't it? It gets hard work and er someone comes along and says well can we do it a bit quicker? First machine comes along and a man of the cloth, as some ladies here know, from Nottingham, the Reverend William Lindel designed a knitting machine, the first machine. Fourteen eighty five. A and this first machine, sorry fifteen eighty five not fourteen eighty, fifteen eighty five, fifteen eighty five erm and the reason it was important I mean it's well before the industrial revolution, two hundred years before the industrial revolution so he was really a man well ahead of his time. Did it for his wife actually because she was fed up of knitting stockings. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] Because what I'm talking about now, the knitting product then was hose. If you think of the Elizabethan era, even the men wore hose didn't they? Can you imagine the ruffs here and there was the poofy trousers and the, and the tights. Now this, this was very popular and, and very much in fashion. Very difficult to knit. So this gentleman designed a machine and I've got a picture of the machine here, which you can see. Nottinghamshire carpenter. Yeah,s so it's a Nottingham a Nottinghamshire invention by the Reverend William Lee. That's one of the original frames, it was [speaker002:] [cough] [Lewis:] fourteen, fifteen eighty five mind. This is taken a [LAUGHTER] a few years later. But that's one of the original types of machine that he actually used. It's still working today, or one of them's still working today. Looks like a hand loom really doesn't it? It, but er the difference this is that we've got a piece of fabric coming of there with a weight holding it down. And the knitting elements are along there. Now I won't go into the technicalities of, of the knitting element but it it's, to say this, that, that needle, four hundred years ago, is still being used today. So is the innovation I mean there are other knitting needles but there is still this type of what we call burns needles being used today. And, and er basically it shows just how, how far ahead he was. And the other thing of course was that one movement, which took about one second, right and you wouldn't have a loom, one movement of this machine where the needles go up, take the yarn, knitted a hundred stitches, two hundred stitches,what whatever number of stitches were on that particular piece of fabric, the width. As you know when you go across on stitch, so one second would increase er by a hundredfold. So productivity increased tremendously, and therefore it was going to be a success. Having said that, in order to get into production, or even to use it, you can't just set up in those days any more than you can today, now you need planning permission to, you need. So he had to go to Queen Elizabeth, the court, to ask for a charter. Ask for a charter to use the machine. And she flatly refused. Because it wouldn't knit silk. Now silk was the product of the day for the, for the royal household you see. It wouldn't knit silk, she wasn't going to have it. Now that was her excuse but there is some evidence to say that she'd got a big investment in weaving machine and I think she was a little bit worried er that these might take over from. So you see the commercial aspects were still in there in those days as they are today. Anyway, Reverend William Lee, his son and his brother, went over to France to see if Henry, King Henry of France could help him er but before he could get through to the court there King Henry died and then William Lee died without seeing his machine come to any sort of commercial fruition. But his son and his brother came back to this country, early in the seventeenth century, about sixteen five sixteen six. By sixteen ten there were three thousand of his machines all around the country. So that's how quickly they caught on. Hinckley was the first area, for some reason Godalming in Surrey had er er some. But mainly in the midlands, Hinckley, Leicester, Nottingham. Hose, stocking hose was being made in mass production and the craft of knitting, obviously, began to lose it's, it's sway. The traditional areas still maintained fortunately, cos it didn't affect the knitted outer-wear at this stage, so all the areas we talked about in the north of Yorkshire moor and Scotland, fortunately there's more of a skill to maintain there. but gradually the knitting craft, the guilds and the productition pro production from these cottage crafts began to die down because these machines are, anyway that's the history of it, that's how the first machines came to light. And for the next two or three hundred years it was very slow progress in terms of technical development although the industrial revolution came along as we all know. Er and therefore more and more people used machines and went into factories as opposed to being in cottages and we all know about this sort of thing. But it really didn't affect a lot of the traditional things that we were doing in knitwear. So the hose was still knitted on these machines. Bigger machines were developed etcetera. But the real innovation, the real changes after the Second World War. Cos up until then all the natural fibres were still being used, wool was being used for outer-wear, cotton was being used for underwear, cotton lisle. Do you remember the lisle stocking? cotton lisle was stocking, utility stockings, still I mean I I was working for the company er, in Leicester, called making cotton lisles for twelve years, fifteen years ago. And was still making his woolly still are, specialist. So you know, these traditions die hard but I m but things had to change and they changed really after the Second World War. [speaker002:] [cough] [Lewis:] and it's fairly obvious, people had been without, people here that remember the war, my father [speaker002:] [cough] [Lewis:] You know, there was seven years of going without, and going without for lots of things, basic things, basic clothing, food and that what whatever. And yet we were seeing seeing the film from the Americans where the film stars of the day with their twin sets and fully fashion stockings and the pearls and what have you. So obviously when the war finished there was tremendous demand. There's demand from the ladies of this and the men to some extent, and mainly the ladies for basic products and the fashion products that would lift the spirits a little bit. So this had an effect. It had an effect on the retail sector, the retail areas of the country erm the obvious thing is the chain store. Someone had to respond to this demand, the small little shop in the village couldn't do it, even the big Co-ops couldn't do it. Erm the, the stores like John Lewis and Debenhams, yet they were stores, they were general stores weren't they? Where you get everything so the knitwear or the clothing side more specialized, only had a section. So the chain stores took up the challenge. We have to produce dozens, hundreds of dozens, thousand of dozens of this product that the ladies wanted. And they came to the manufacturers and they said look we, there's no good producing fifty dozen a week on a machine it's not [speaker002:] [cough] [Lewis:] Marks and Spencers wouldn't take anyone on as a supplier unless you could produce at least two hundred dozen a week on one site. Two hundred dozen that was when I first started in the industry in the sort of la early sixties. Dr so we had to respond to that, and we responded in a number of ways. The British responded by being the best at one particular product type, made on a particular machine. Now this looks sort of different from the machine I showed you where they, you know the machine, but in fact it's the direct development of it, it's called the fully-fashioned pro and it's, and this area's famous for fully-fashioned knitwear. But the fully-fashioned frame knitting machine, the British made the best in the world. Made them in Leicester, Nottingham, Scotland and then the products that made from them were made in this country, Nottingham, Leicester and Scotland. Fully-fashioned knitwear, now I think you all know what I mean by that then. There's a fully, basic classic fully-fashioned look, right? It's, it's really stocking stitch cos it came from the stocking machine didn't it? That is a stocking machine that we've turned into an outer-wear machine. That machine I think has sixteen heads, and we did, did have them up to thirty two heads. When I say a head, that one unit there is like the man was sitting at making one stocking at a time. This makes one panel at a time, but there are sixteen so through one twelve minute cycle, in twelve minutes sixteen garments were produced. Or sixteen parts of garment, and one man would run two of those machines. He'd be t running one there and turn round and running the other one. And I mean there's s there was a company, it's still going in Mansfield today, that er it w c making twenty thousand dozens, per week, for Marks and Spencers alone, in the heydays of, only about eight years ago and we down a little bit. That's what we were good at. So we were good at the mass produced area for Marks and Spencers making nice wool garments like that. And the acrylics because the acrylic yarns had to be developed, new yarns had to be developed apart from machinery we had to develop yarns that would meet the demand. You couldn't produce enough wool, you couldn't produce enough cotton. Something had to be produced so the acrylics were produced in. I'll come back, come back to that in a mo but that's a classic fully-fashioned garment. Erm another one just showing what we call a fashion shoulder instead of a. But they're different, the thing about the fully-fashioned is that it is shaped. You see what I mean by shape? It, there is no waste to that product, it is knitted and when we come to a part where you want it to be narrow, the machine shapes it. And that's what the old fully-fashioned stocking used to be. They used to shape and give it a seam down the back. But that is a shaped garment and therefore it's ideal for expensive fibres. Lambs wool, cashmere, and that's why Scotland specialize in that area. Cos they had the, the expensive yarns and they produced them on these machines with very little waste. So that's what the British manufactured the machines and the product. What was happening in Europe whilst this was happening cos that's after the war they had their own development and they developed a different type of machine called a flat machine. Now that looks a very simple sort of thing, it's quite large, a man stands about that high. So you get about five or six garments in width across there. [cough] The difference here is that it's a ribbed fabric. Now I don't know whether any of you see the little hand machines you can now buy? Japanese versions of this like the Singer. Well that's the sort of fabric it produces. [cough] Show you the fabric. That is a jacquard right? Marks and Spencers' garment again. Jackline in the, you have to do something with the comb when it's not showing so you've, what's happened to the white? The white's gone to the back hasn't it? And the ribbed fabric on the back. So it's floated and knitted it on the back. So takes it up and knits it on the back. Two things about that. It means it's got to be heavier cos it's not a single fabric, so it's ideal for heavier chunky knits. Coarser gauges and of course knitting some of the more specialist yarns like Channel which in particular. So that's what flat machines do, they knit, these particular Jacquard and, and that's what the continentals were good at, it, cos they look, I mean they were far more, we're so conservative in this country, little better now obviously we do more nowad you know we're talking about just after the war the Italians and the French were into colour, not garish colour, subtle lovely colours. But these machines could do that. Our, our machine made a nice classical knitwear, these made the more specialized things like this. Right? So that is a Jacquard, and that's an electronic Jacquard, means you can do all sorts of different patterns now, where it used to be limited it's unlimited now. Any number of colours virtually, any number of patterns. I mean you get so busy, in fact I think it's probably gone to the extent where it's gone too busy. It gets so you can recognize one of those straight away. And they've been trendy the last two or three seasons, they've been back with the classics haven't they? Especially in recession cos ladies think better to have a nice navy cardigan I can wear with this hat. One of these I only wear once and everyone's seen [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] But that's what the flat machines do and that's the machine that I invested in, very expensive, very versatile, they also knit, today they will also knit the Arran stitching. I mean they'll knit this Arran and. They'll knit that on these machines so they'll stitch transfer, they'll cable, they'll, they'll do base. That machine is very very versatile. That's what the continentals were doing and are still doing. The Japanese are now taking over the manufacture of the machines as you can imagine, and so [cough] that's the end of it for the, the Swiss and the Germans in the terms of the market because they just can't compete. Erm again mean time that the Americans er the Americans much more production, they've been producing all this time anyway cos they've got high productivity, need it for two hundred million people. So they worked on er what were called circking machines. I'm afraid it's very, that's not very good ladies but might just get an idea to er the type of machines. You can see the man standing there so you get an idea of the size of the machine. There's the man there. And there's the machine circking machine. If I stood here the machine would go to that wall and the same that way and then round, in diameter. So that's the size of the machine. They were initially developed er from a, a salt machine again like the, the other ones called the Griswald a little hand, salt machine you used to turn like that and make salt. People realized, the Americans in particular realized that the finer the knit, like for underwear, the longer it takes to get, it doesn't tie your knitting on and So the finer it is the more time or expense it is to knit it. So they developed this circular idea because that machine revolves. In one revolution, whatever number of cones are on there there's a feeder for, so if there's a hundred feeders in one revolution it knits a hundred courses. A hundred courses not one, like we do on the fully- fashioned but one hundred courses in one revolution. And it goes at sixty revolutions to the minute. And it's going so quick the fabric comes down there so quickly you can't actually see it to examine it, it's coming down. Now the quality obviously is not as good as either the flat or fully-fashioned and that's why the Americans have a reputation for not but that's the reason, productivity. If you like to [cough] think that we started discuss discuss this discussion by saying there was a demand after the war, you can see now that we met it in, over and over again cos these machines were all over America. Not only that, in the Far East where we've got hands by the, the thousand compared to ours, they've got these machines as well. So not only have they got the cheap labour, they've got the cheap and highly effective machinery. So in terms of demand er it's beaten it hasn't it? I mean everyone's got want them, basically. The only reason now, looking at the way knitwear is going or any products going, the only way now that we can get the latest is if we design er oh er design new ideas that are want something fresh or fashion takes over. They're the two other areas, so I've talked about machines, er design and fashion is the next major element. The stores have the effect on the purse to produce that, get them to you and now you, you've got really as much as you want. The only thing if it's a bargain or if it looks nice or you need something new. What you need now, not what you would want you want, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] it's now what you want. Erm so you're back to this design element now and that's the major factor. Er fashion and design, well if, from a design point of view erm we all work the same way, no matter who in knitwear, who you work, whether it's Marks and Spencers or whether it's Jack Vere or whether it's John Smedley or erm Finks across the road there. Whatever very highly er design orientated, all sold in the same place. Twice a year we all start there, we manufacturers go, the designer, the designers go with the buyers from the stores, with the designers from the fashion houses. [cough] You go to one place and that place is called Petite Forlarty and that's in Florence. Not in France, I used to think well the French just starts in Florence and it starts there because the Italians determine the colour. It all starts with colour. Not fabrics, not colour. Petite Forlarty which is a castle in the middle, just on the outskirts of Florence er and e for some reason I mean the c the Italians have been colourists for yonks. Before we were knitting these, before Reverend William Lee was designing his machine, the Italians were design er pain er tt dyeing silk. They were the best silk producers in the world. [cough] They were colourists then and good fabrics in the fourteenth fifteenth century. So they've kept that tradition so we go there for the colours, and they provide a palette each year, er that's the ninety one ninety two. That's the ninety three ninety four. Now there looks like there's a lot of colours there. Well there is because it's both the mens and ladies palette and basically er that's the wool Ivere Versace International Wool Secretary, working with Petite Forlarty But they determine the colours, in effect every design house then sells its colours from there. But you find eventually there's perhaps two or three colours that becomes strong through the year. But it's usually not them that make up just like that, it's you ladies. Cos at the end of the day you just pick the ones you like from your boat,you you're gradually, the, the colours come through for you through your magazines and what have you, and you pick the ones you like. But there is that sort of broad choice. And they are very good spinners as well, and I buy a lot of Italian yarns and people say to me why? I mean the British manufacture them, why, why do you buy Italian yarns? Well for a number of reasons, that's one of them that's one spinner and one yarn, and he offers me all of those colours, ex stock, in sort of ten days delivery and er one carton at a time, if I wanted. Now as a small design house with a small manufacturer that's ideal for me, I couldn't work any other way. Comparing it with my friends who I've worked with for years, who are most expensive sort of fair enough. Known him for years, worked with him for years. That's the colour palette which is very limited [speaker002:] Mm. [Lewis:] you see. That's two or three different yarns, because it's the same colour palette. And I've got to have three hundred kilos. Because they're geared to Marks and Spencers, now there's the advert for them they work with, with mass production, that's where it goes wrong because we've lost our individuality and so I go to the Italians in order to get the sort of yarns they offer me, now they're the sort of yarns they offer me. [speaker002:] Look at that. [Lewis:] Beautiful. been a shipment. And they're all ex stock and the update I every season, and I mean every season, that's three seasons a year. They also provide us with, and my designers love this I mean they g go over there and they come back and they plaster these things all over, all over their design rooms and it looks like a Paris design house. But they, they give them ideas. These are the, these are the fibre producers, yarn producers they give the young designers ideas of how to put these fabrics together. A lot of them are not practical but it, you know it gives them creative ideas. But it's important that they get abroad and see these because they also imbibe a lot of feeling from just walking around these places and seeing what the ladies are wearing so it's very important for them to go to those places. So that's the designer element and we get together with the people like M and S, whoever it is and meet there and decide the colours and we're going to do that, that and that and you come back and your team works together to produce certain ideas for a range. But that's where it all starts from. So that's the design element, the other element, of courses, is, is fashion. [cough] Now your fashion is a thing you can't put your finger on really isn't it? But I mean in terms of knitwear over the last few years I can give you one or two examples which I think you'll readily er understand. Er for instance erm films used to affect the design and fashion a lot in. Not so much now because it's mainly the youngsters that go there. T what is it today? It's television isn't it? And the big, one of the big things that affected us in the last few years was er Dallas. And why? Because of the padded shoulders. And we been millions of padded shoulders into knitwear. In some ways, okay it's been overdone now, but in some ways some garments would look super. And let's face it knitwear is an unstructured fabric so it needs something to hold it together. And er small pads I mean that's a, that's a pad you can take [speaker002:] Yes. [Lewis:] Right. So I mean you mid winter wool but you can see without, it would not have the structure would it? [speaker002:] No. [Lewis:] Now as a matter of interest ladies, I sell that at twen twenty nine pounds, seventy nine ninety nine. That gives you an idea of the mark-up that the retailers put on the garment, which I don't blame them for, they've got their problems, I've got mine. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] . So that's padded shoulders the important thing in the last two years, everything has to be in, as I say it's not true to say everything but quite a lot of things have been in, so both those are, are the. Right, Marks and Spencers both of those. So even M and S has got into the fashions market. Er but these er the [yawn] quite fashionable, all long-line. And it's still going on for another season. No the, we're moving about a bit now, there'll be an element of long-line but there is er I know a lot of ladies will be relieved to know, there is a shorter length coming back in. [shouting] You'll find, you'll find a whole of [] shorter lengths having, having been, having been to Nottingham. So then anyway, I've got one other little story about er fashion before I finish, before I conclude this. Er if there are any questions afterwards I'll be pleased to try and answer them. Erm I w we suggest that while you're having your coffee and refreshments if you can push some of the chairs back get those rails out into the middle there and you can have a look. Please feel free to try anything on, no obligations. As you know erm we, we take the money here we don't charge you for the talk but we give ten percent back to your W I so it's a self funding situation. So er keep that in mind when you're looking and buying. Erm, now the other little story in fashion of course is the, is er Princess Diana. Now of course she's had a tremendous effect on, on fashion knitwear ever since she's been involved with before. But our knitwear in particular, erm she effected us by the little jumper she wore er with Charlie before she got engaged. You remember? The little sheep. Do you remember that? Red with white sheep on? Hand knitted. See? So we're back full circle, hand knitted. Caused a tremendous demand for hand knitted products, now she payed three hundred and something pounds for that. I'm not saying it was worth that but she payed. Hundred percent nice wool, hand knitted for her specially. But it created a demand, and we manufacturers, well come on lads, can't you make these? We want to sell these at under fifty pounds. Which means you've got to make it for about twelve or fourteen. But you know we rose to the challenge and now there's almost anything we can do er on the machines that I bought. So here are just two examples, two or three here that I did, [speaker002:] [cough] [Lewis:] will see that we did. Now you know in the old days, how I mean [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lewis:] [shouting] the knitting machine has done [] what we did by hand, well under fifty pound, I think that one sold at twenty nine and that's five. So I mean in the shop I, I did sell for the National Trust once but I s I sold them the. You know the? Er no not, not National Trust, R S P B that was it,. National Trust... [shouting] So in conclusion [] in conclusion ladies I think we've met the challenge of the industrialist in terms of making and from you the demand. Where do we go from there? We can only by hope but er you know, with creating new ideas, keeping the quality good, so you know you feel right with prices your pocket and er therefore we will survive. And I hope you found the talk informative, interesting. [speaker002:] [clapping]

[John:] we get more of you than me get plenty of me on these. Right that's better, okay? Now where's the question in the book, let's see what, what you made of it before you copied it down. [Ian:] No actually it was just, it was just like a question erm find X. That [John:] Okay. [Ian:] was, that was all it was. [John:] Okay. [Ian:] It was just like a big list of questions. [John:] So... right, so we've got X and two open brackets X add four close brackets equals minus four. And the problem is this brackets here, the X plus. What are we going to do with that? Erm before we do anything let's have a look and see what it would mean if, it would mean just as numbers. Let's say X is was ten, I mean it's not but let's say it was, we'd have ten add two brackets ten add four. Minus four, now we won't bother with that side, what would we do on this side? Would you add the two to the ten or what? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] You sure? [Ian:] No, I would multiply it. [John:] Right, in there between the two and the brackets although they don't bother to put it in, there's a multiply. So that's the first thing to realize, we've got a multiply in there now we've got this two piggy in the middle here, between an add and a times, so the times win. Yeah? Now we've got multiply into the brackets, so we'll just leave the ten where it is and work out what happens to this, everything inside the bracket has got to be multiplied by? [Ian:] By two. [John:] So? Two times ten [Ian:] Add two times ten, twenty. Two times four, eight. [John:] Times ten add two times four, eight, That's got rid of the brackets, equal minus four. Now are you happy with that? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, so you do it with the Xs then, I did it with the numbers, that's the easy bit.... So whenever you've got Xs and Ys and all sorts of strange things in there think just, it's only a number. We don't know what it is yet, we haven't found out, but it's only a number. And whatever we do, if it was a three, a seven, or a ten, a five just do the same but with the X.... [Ian:] Shall I? [John:] Yeah that's fine carry on. What do you do next? It's going very well.... Are you sure about that? [Ian:] Not really no. [John:] It's right, it's correct it is minus twelve but I could see you were really not very sure what you should be doing about that, that's great, you've found, you've got that down to there, let's have a little look at the number line, zero, one, two, three and so on, minus one, minus two, minus three, minus four. And what have we got here? We've got minus four take away eight, so we start at minus four start there and then we take away, which means count along that way for eight, so we get minus five, minus six, minus seven, minus eight, minus nine, minus ten, minus eleven, minus twelve... Okay? Whenever you're not sure about what to do just look at that and just write it down or just think about it, visualize it, there's zero, then we can, adding a negative number or taking away, go that way up towards the negatives, adding a positive number, go that way. Okay, so you've got three X equals minus twelve... see minus twelve, a negative divided by a positive comes out negative. It's the same for addition and erm same for multiplication, division. If the signs are the same, both signs the same when you're multiplying or dividing, both signs the same will give you what? [Ian:] Positive. [John:] Right good, and if the signs are different? [Ian:] Negative. [John:] So you get th a negative divided by a positive be a negative cos the signs are different. Oh that's no problem is it? [Ian:] No. [John:] Erm now what were you doing when you were [Ian:] Th [John:] trying it? You were doing two times X add two times two X add eight [Ian:] I was two there [John:] Mm you were [Ian:] And the two and the two X. I was leaving [John:] Okay let's, let's have another little look at brackets... let's try multiplying say... a hundred and one... by... twenty three. Okay? And we'll do it with brackets. So what have we got? We'll, we'll, we'll do twenty three times a hundred and one, okay? Twenty add three, put the brackets round it show that's one number we have to work out what that is first. Times, which we don't bother writing in... a hundred add one, okay? Now we multiply everything that's in there by everything in here. So would you like to try that? How would you do it?... [Ian:] You add those together. [John:] Erm I want you do it without adding them together, okay I'll, I'll show you one. Erm you've expanded brackets before, like this, haven't you? [Ian:] Yeah, I think s [John:] Okay, so twenty times a hundred... [Ian:] Oh yeah. [John:] is two hundred. Twenty times one is how many? [Ian:] Twenty. [John:] Okay. Three times a hundred? [Ian:] Three hundred. [John:] And three times one? [Ian:] Three. [John:] Then if we add those up... [Ian:] [whispering] hundred and twenty three []. [John:] Right okay, do you want to check that on your calculator? It doesn't sound about right. [Ian:] No. [John:] Okay so have a look and what's gone wrong here?... Let's work backwards. Three times one, what's that? [Ian:] Three. [John:] That's okay. Three times a hundred? [Ian:] Three hundred. [John:] Okay. Twenty times one? [Ian:] Twenty. [John:] Twenty times a hundred? [Ian:] Two thousand. [John:] Right, not two hundred, two thousand. So that's th that's, that's my mistake there, but that's a very common error, yeah? Now if we add it up. It's going to look a little bit better. Two three two there. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, we check it this way. Twenty three times one O one? How would you do it long division? L sorry multiplication, how would you do that? [Ian:] What do you mean long? [John:] Just normal multiplying, the way you multiply that out by hand. Have you tried that or you u have you always used the calculator? [Ian:] Yeah, I've always used the calculator? [John:] Okay the way you do it by hand is you just say, one times twenty three, is twenty three. No tens times it. A hundred times twenty three, will be twenty three [Ian:] Twenty three [John:] hundred. Add that up, two three two three, is that what you got on the calculator? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So when we're doing this normal multiplying we're really doing this. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? Now if we don't know, let's say we wanted, let's say we want to find out, what would erm what would a hundred and one times twenty seven be? Let's say I'm, I'm going, I give you this question, I want to find a hundred and one times twenty... six, right? A hundred and one times twenty seven, a hundred and one times twenty eight, twenty nine, we'll put twenty five in as well. In fact we'll ma we'll make it all of them, twenty three, twenty two, twenty one, right. Find all these. What's a hundred time twenty six, a hundred times twenty seven, sorry a hundred and one times all of these. Well we could work out a, a general thing we use brackets and see what happens. Are you happy with this? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. So it'll be a hundred and one times... twenty something, twenty plus X. But we don't know whether we've [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] got twenty one, twenty two, twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty, twenty plus something, we could make that N if you like instead of X. We could make it N, N is just some number from about nought to nine. A hundred and one times twenty, what will that give us?... It'll be [Ian:] Two thousand... and ten. [John:] It'll be twenty hundred and twenty. Okay? [Ian:] Oh. I see. [John:] Yeah. Erm add, now what's N times a hundred and one? Well this might be th this might be too awkward this. It might be easier to split this hundred and one up a bit, hundred add one, times twenty add N, okay? That's a bit easier. A hundred times twenty? [Ian:] Two, two thousand, two [John:] Yeah [Ian:] two yeah. [John:] Two thousand or twenty hundred, same difference. Now a hundred times N, what will that give? [Ian:] A hundred N. [John:] Okay, a hundred. Now one times twenty? [Ian:] That's one. [John:] And one times N? [Ian:] One N. [John:] One N, so if we add those up, keeping the numbers and the Ns separate, we get two O two O add that [Ian:] One O one N. [John:] One O one N, okay so let's see what happens when we try a hundred and one times twenty seven, that just means that N equals seven. Now what could that come to? Well it should come to two two two O two O, plus seven times a hundred and one, which will just be seven O seven. Let's see what that comes to. You want to check that on the calculator, see if that one works?... No? [Ian:] No. [John:] No, oh wrong again, what's it, what it give then? [Ian:] Two seven two seven. [John:] It should always come to two seven two seven shouldn't it? We've got two seven, that's a two. Right, I put a nine in, that was a bit more than seven, okay. So it does come to two seven two seven. How about, we know it com it always come to that, two twenty plus a hundred and one N, so let's try twenty nine, when N is equal to nine we'll get two O two O add a hundred and one times nine, which'll just be nine O nine. [Ian:] Nine O nine. [John:] Add that up, nine is two nine two nine. I don't think there's any need to check it on that cos we can see the pattern [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] that's coming out, two seven two seven, two nine two nine, what would erm so what answer would you expect if we try one O one times twenty six, what would ma what would you expect the answer to be? [Ian:] Three six two six. [John:] So we expect that and we're pretty certain that'll come to two six two six. We can just put it in there, it's two O two add now this time we've got N equals six, six O a hundred and one times N added on, six O six, two six two six, okay? It's, all this is showing really is that when we do multiplication normally, you see if you, if you've done this sort of multiplication, you've seen the pattern and how things are working and how you're not, someone says to you multiply erm seventeen by a hundred and one. Don't try and do the wh whole lot all in one go, well that's simple George I happen to know my hundred and one times table, [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] as far as the seventeens. You work it out in stages, little bits, and then you add the bits together and then you add the bits together, so you say, well I could do a hundred times seventeen and then I could do ones times seventeen. And then I could add them together, or if that's a bit awkward, what I could do is I could think of the hundred and one as a hundred add one, I can think of the seventeen as ten add seven, and then I multiply them this way and I multiply all the bits and then add all the bits up at the end. So we're doing a hundred and one times, we'll make that erm twenty eight. We've done twenty seven up there, we'll do it again here, say it's a hundred and one times twenty seven. So a hundred times twenty is twenty hundred, a hundred times seven will gives us what? [Ian:] Seven hundred. [John:] One times twenty? [Ian:] That's twenty. [John:] And one times seven? [Ian:] Seven. [John:] And if we add all those up? [Ian:] Two seven two seven. [John:] Two seven two seven. Now work, this works with any number [cough] so if we've got, we want to find out erm sixteen times twenty five... there's an easy way of doing it, think of the sixteen as four times four okay? And then that's the sixteen the four times four, so now it's times twenty five. And then we could look at it that way. Four times twenty five is? [Ian:] ... A hundred. [John:] So the answer is going to be four times a hundred, four hundred. So it's an easy one to check, see what we do when we do it with brackets. We've got ten add six times twenty add five, okay? If you'd like to do that one? [speaker003:] Hello John. [John:] Thanks very much. Got [speaker003:] Okay? [John:] time to finish your tea tonight then? Sorry about that last week. [speaker003:] I came in after you! [John:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear []! [speaker003:] I, I, I was supposed to have a lift, and erm I was waiting like I say ten to five we knock off half one you see and the guy never turned up, the car was there but So er it was a case of where I worked er was G P T er buses [John:] Buses Yeah. [speaker003:] and there's no bus direct [John:] No, how's it doing there, are they still sort of [speaker003:] [sigh] [John:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It's er, well you see G E C took over er and that's the worse thing that could happen to anyone, er cos is an accountant and manufacturers. [John:] So he just looked at it and says making a big enough profit. [speaker003:] That's right and if, that's right, and even if you're making a profit [John:] Yeah. [speaker003:] if he thinks he can a er [John:] Make a better profit. [speaker003:] make a better, by selling the assets and literally stripping it, he'll do so. Er he couldn't give a damn about er [Ian:] About er people. [John:] No. [speaker003:] I mean first thing he did was er redundan we used to get four weeks for every year redundancy payment, bang, no forget it. And er they're going through the courts now. [John:] It, I mean it now just it just ruins the morale doesn't it? So you're [speaker003:] That's right. [John:] not getting good work out, people [speaker003:] That's right. [John:] won't put themselves out for the firm and it's, it's you know [speaker003:] Yeah. [John:] He can't see that doesn't help in the long run if, [speaker003:] Yeah, mind you his, his short er term policies so it doesn't matter in the long run. [John:] Right. [door closing] [Ian:] Ten times twenty is two hundred. Ten times five is fifty, then we go down here and six times twenty is one hundred and twenty. Six times five is thirty. [John:] Right. Your, your arithmetic has really improved you know, you can do these things in your head now whereas not all that long ago you'd have been reaching for the calculator thinking, oh I can't do that. And now you have a go, and get it right. Good. [Ian:] [whispering] []... Is it four? [John:] Erm let's have a look, all zeros down the end and then we've got three and two that's a five [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Five and two is seven and three makes? [Ian:] Ten. [John:] Ten, so that's a nought and carry one, right. And carry one and then we've got two and one is three and the one you carried makes four. Actually you're right with your four there, it was just you snuck an extra ten in somewhere, okay? And that's what we got doing it that way. So you could, you reckon you could do sort of any number of those? If I gave you lots of those to do you [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] reckon you could do them no problem? Yeah? So try one with the Xs in now. Now what's the difference? What's the difference? No difference at all is there? Do you want to do another one with the numbers in? [Ian:] No. [John:] No? No okay. Try one with the Xs. on the back of that, save my paper a bit,. Right.... Erm... we'll put. We'll go right for the awkward ones and put an X and a Y in as well. What does that come to? [Ian:] ... Hundred times ten [John:] Okay. [Ian:] is a thousand. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Hundred times Y, a hundred Y [John:] Okay. [Ian:] X times ten, ten X. X times Y, X Y. [John:] Okay. And then adding all these up, well there's none of them that add up that we can just add in to any of the others, so we'll have to leave them all like that, so the answer is just a, a thousand, plus a hundred Y plus ten X, plus X Y. Now if we wanted to multiply, let's say we want to multiply a hundred and three by seventeen, that just means that X is seven, sorry X is three and Y is seven. So this should come to one thousand plus, what's a hundred times Y? [Ian:] ... Hundred thousand seven hundred. [John:] Good, and what's ten times X? [Ian:] ... One thousand [John:] Right, and what's X times Y? That's three times seven. So we've got a thousand [Ian:] Twenty one. [John:] Right, we've got a thousand and we've got a hundred times Y, hundred times seventeen, okay. And we've got tens times X, ten times three, Hang on, ten X, X is three... okay, we add those up, one, two and three is five seven so see if that looks anything like right. A hundred and three by seventeen.... Is it wrong again? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] [whispering] Oh no, never works this, does it []? So is this right? A hundred times ten is a thousand. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] A hundred times Y is a hundred Y. X times ten is ten X, X times Y is X Y. So that's okay, the bit you were worked out is fine. So we're doing a hundred and three which is a hundred add X, X being three. Times ten add Y and Y is seven. So let's see if we've got these, we've got one thousand, yes. A hundred Y, Y is? No Y isn't seventeen. [Ian:] Seven. [John:] Y is seven so that should be seven hundred. Okay? Erm ten times X, which is the thirty [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] and then X times Y which is twenty one. Is that right now, are we still one seven five one? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Now you can see how easy it is with the numbers to make mistakes especially if you're multiplying by tens or hundreds or thousands or looking at, trying to just look at a bit of it, oh that's just, oh hang on is that seven or is that seventeen? It's actually easier when you're using all Xs and Ys. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] It really is, this is the thing that people won't believe. They I'd much rather be doing a hundred and three times seventeen. But it's easier if there are no numbers in it at all, if it's all letters. When you pop it in you're not gonna, you don't make these mistakes. So try this one, that was a good, that was good that. Try this, A add B times X add Y.... See what that comes to.... [Ian:] [whispering] []... A times X [John:] That's it. [Ian:] A X, A times Y. [John:] Yeah, you normally write them in a straight line but when, when they were numbers I was writing them under each other cos it was easier to add. So yeah, A times Y is? [Ian:] A Y. [John:] Right. [Ian:] B X, erm B Y. [John:] Okay, and they're all, they're all added together because there was. Well what did you think of that compared to doing this with the numbers in? [Ian:] That's a lot easier. [John:] It was an awful lot easier, wasn't it. There's no chance of making all these errors that I was making, oh no what's this? It's seventeen hundred or seven hundred or what's, what's a hundred times twenty, is that two hundred? Oh no it should have been two thousand. It's easier, it's the easiest thing is when there isn't a number in sight, when it's all letters. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? Now a more interesting one, try this. A plus B times A plus B.... [Ian:] A times A, A squared and A times B, A B. [John:] Right. [Ian:] B times A, B A. [John:] Right, normally write it A. If we get an A, a B A we'd write it A B. We keep the letters in alphabetical order when we multiply just so we can see what's going on. See why when you've done them, finish off the last one then. [Ian:] B times B is B squared. [John:] Right. A B, what does that mean? [Ian:] A times B. [John:] And what does B A mean? [Ian:] B times A. [John:] So it comes to the same thing. So instead of those two, we'd, we'd do that first, as you've done it and then instead of those two we'd just write two A B. So it'll come to A squared plus two A B plus B squared. So if you want to just write that in. [Ian:] So it's A squared [John:] A squared underneath that one, now these two, we just add the A B and we, that's also an A B, we've written [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] it as B A so we've got two A Bs. [Ian:] So it's like doing the A B and then double them? [John:] Yeah, so it's two A B, two times A times B. [Ian:] Yeah.... Plus B squared. [John:] Right, brilliant. Try this one. What do you think of that compared to the numbers? [Ian:] It's a lot easier, [John:] It's, it's, it's e once, once you get over this shock of, aargh I haven't got a number, oh what am I going to do, nothing to cling on to it's all letters, ooh I can't do it, I can't do it. You know, [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] once you get over that [whispering] a doddle []. This is easier than doing it with numbers, any day. So let's try A minus B times A whoops A minus B. See what you get from that. Now it's just what you've done there, right, but you've now got to start thinking about signs a bit, haven't you? We've got a plus times a minus or a minus times a plus or what? What does it give?... [Ian:] A times an A [John:] Right. [Ian:] go, that's A squared. [John:] Okay. [Ian:] And then erm... A minus B [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] times A minus B [John:] Well hang on. Follow, follow the normal erm... oh okay do it, go on, do it your way. A minus B times A minus B, that'll give you what? [Ian:] ... B squared. [John:] Yeah, and is that plus or minus? [Ian:] Plus. [John:] Good, good. Cos the signs are the same. So it's A squared plus B squared and now what about the other bits? [Ian:] B minus B times A is... [John:] Now when you were doing over here, you did a B times A is B A. Okay so it's gonna be B A, all you've got to decide now is it plus B A or minus B A, so you can put your B A down while you're thinking about it. And what have you got? [Ian:] Minus. [John:] Good. So cos it hasn't got a sign in front of that A so it's a plus A. We've got a plus times A minus which is A minus. And what about the last one then? [Ian:] B times B erm minus B times minus B. [John:] No, you've done that already. [Ian:] Yeah, so it's [John:] Which is why it's better to sort of hey now, hang on, don't put another B squared in, cos you've done that. Let's, let's just put it here, A minus B times A minus B. Now it's tempting to go for the easier ones in it as you did, so we'll do the A squared, okay that's no problem. Done the A squared, and you said, well, let's do the B squared cos that gives a positive, then you got a little bit sort of not sure of which ones you'd done and which ones you hadn't. So it's probably better to stick to the system of A times that one, that gives us the A squared okay. Now A times minus B, what does that give us? That gives us the minus B A or minus A B. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? So we need to carry on from there, so I've done the A times A and the A times minus B. Now we start with the minus B times each other, so what does give? [Ian:] Minus B ti minus B times A [John:] Will give you? [Ian:] ... minus A B. [John:] Good, brilliant yeah? Gives you another minus A B there, now erm [Ian:] And then B Minus B times minus B [John:] Gives you A? [Ian:] A B squared. [John:] Right. [Ian:] A plus B squared. [John:] A plus B squared. Put that one in, put the plus B squared at the end there. Right so when we add those up then we've just got A squared and how many minus A Bs have we got? [Ian:] Two. [John:] So we've got to finish off with minus [Ian:] Two minus A [John:] So we finish off with minus two A Bs. Okay, so you finish up with A squared minus [Ian:] Minus two A B. [John:] That's it, good. [Ian:] Plus B squared. [John:] Plus B squared. Now those two, you probably won't come across it much, but the level you're doing but those, those two expressions, A plus B times A plus B and A minus B tems times A minus B come into algebra a lot, they crop up again and again. And there's a n there's one more that comes in for you to have a look at. A plus B times A minus B.... What does that give then? [Ian:] ... [whispering] A times minus B [] [John:] Erm do, do the first one of this into the first one. [Ian:] Wasn't it? Oh that's right. [John:] Okay. So A times A. [Ian:] A times A, A squared. [John:] Right. [Ian:] A times minus B [John:] Right. [Ian:] is minus A B. [John:] Okay, good. [Ian:] ... B times A is B A. [John:] Right, or A B. [Ian:] [whispering] A B []. And B times minus B is minus B squared. [John:] Good, right. Minus B squared. So you've got a plus A B and a minus A B there. They just cancel out. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So what does that come to altogether then? [Ian:] A squared minus B squared. [John:] Right... Erm so those ar those are the, I mean that that one is the most useful actually, A plus B times A minus B comes to A squared minus B squared. Cos the A B, the plus A B and the minus A B cancel out. So if we wanted to do some, I mean if you, if you can use that to do mental arithmetic to impress your mates, that's. Or maybe even the teachers if they're not teachers. Let's say we wanted to do erm... twenty one times nineteen. Well let's rewrite it as A plus B times A minus B, so if A is twenty we've got twenty add one times twenty minus one. Okay? And we know that the answer comes to A squared minus B squared. Well A is twenty so that comes to twenty squared minus one squared. So twenty squared, two squared is how much? [Ian:] Two squared? [John:] T just two squared would be four. And ten squared? [Ian:] A thousand. [John:] And ten squared is? [Ian:] Ten s [John:] Ten [Ian:] Four hundred. [John:] Is a hundred. So it's four hundred minus one squared and one squared is [Ian:] One. [John:] just one. So it should come to? [Ian:] Three hundred and ninety nine. [John:] Erm have we got that right? Twenty squared. Is that not bigger than that? It should be very nearly twenty, twenty times twenty. [Ian:] ... Yeah. [John:] So could you try [cough] what I said, could you do erm... what's a big number for you? A hundred and one times ninety nine. [Ian:] Yeah.... [John:] No. [Ian:] What's wrong? [John:] A add B comes to a hundred and one. [Ian:] Mhm. [John:] And A take away B comes to ninety nine. So what, what would A be? [Ian:] A plus B... s... two. It'll be two. [John:] Th th that two is very important, where did you get that two from? [Ian:] Cos ninety nine plus two, a hundred and one. [John:] Right, so the difference between these two, right so let's say that's A add B and that's A minus B and if we take that one away from this one we get two. So if we had A add B, that's one number, take away A minus B it comes to two. Now let's, what d what does that lot come to on the left hand side? A A plus B minus brackets A minus B? [Ian:] ... Shall I write the arrows [John:] Ah, now we're not multiplying, we're not multiplying here. We're just working out what this comes to,wh with the minus going in to it. Now what did you mean by write the arrows, did you mean from here? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] No.. Let's write it slightly differently, let's write it as A add B... add minus one times A minus B. Are you happy with that? [Ian:] No this is all going [John:] Right. [Ian:] and I don't know anything [John:] That's what I thought, right. You do know quite a lot but you're thinking, phworgh where does he get that from. Well it's back to the old confusion again, that we've got this stupid sign here which can mean it's a negative number or it can mean take away, and sometimes it doesn't really matter which way we look at it. So let's put some numbers in, let's put some numbers in. Let's say we're doing, let's look at the one that I did. Which w erm twenty add one take away twenty take away one. What does that come to? Well it's, leave that as it is, this bit comes to mi think of a minus one. What do we do, you must take away everything that's in the brackets, so we take away a twenty, so that's the same as a minus twenty and then we'll take away a minus one, signs are the same so it's add one. Right take away a minus one is the same as add one, so we've got twenty add one, we can get rid of these brackets now, twenty add one take away twenty add one. Twenty and take away twenty cancel out and it comes to two. Right, so what happens here? With this lot, we've got A add B, that's one number, take away A minus B. That's going to come to A add B, A take away A or A minus A and then take away A minus B, taking away A minus B is the same as adding a B. So the A take away A go out and this comes to two B. Now... this is not using a long way, a long way round to do it. Erm it is, but we're l we're seeing quite a lot about how brackets work in algebra. Now brackets weren't invented for algebra, they were invented for these normal numbers that we play with. They work for those and algebra just follows, so it just follows the normal rules that we're using for the numbers that we know. So we've looked, we've looked at one lot of brackets times another lot, which is the most difficult thing to do really, and you can do that, no problem. Now we need to look at one lot of something in brackets add another lot, well let's, let's forget about the first one being in brackets, let's say we're doing ten take away six. What does that come to? [Ian:] Four. [John:] Okay, so I'm going to do ten take away, now I'll put some brackets where that six was I don't want to write a six, I'm going to write it as five add one. Now that should give me the same answer as if I do ten take away five so it's take away a plus five, Yeah? That just comes to take away five, and then take away a plus one, take away one. Ten take away five, how many does that come to? [Ian:] Five. [John:] Take away one? [Ian:] Four. [John:] Right, so that works okay. Now I should be able to say ten take away, I'm going to write six in here, instead of six I'm going to put it as nine take away three. So we do, ten take away a plus nine, that's just take away nine. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Take away a minus three, is the same as adding the three. Don't forget the same with, with take-aways as well, if the signs are the same you get a plus or you get an add, erm so that's, I mean I can see this is the bit you're not too happy with, but we'll just see if it works. So take away a minus three is the same as adding a plus three, and what would that come to? Ten take away nine [Ian:] One. [John:] Add three? [Ian:] Four. [John:] Ah. So it does seem to work this method, and it wor this is the method we have to use for all the numbers including the As and Bs and Xs and Ys where we don't know what the number is. So that that bit you, you got no problem with it, if I keep to positive numbers inside there, have you? So ten take away, if we did something like ten take away A add B, well that's the same as ten take away A and then take away B. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] If I say to you, I want you to do this sort of ten take away three add four in brackets, so you'd add the three and four, get seven, ten take away seven, three. Or you could do, you could take them away separately. take away the three then take away the four. So you're okay with that, ten take away A minus, ten take away A add B will be ten take away A and then take away B. But if we do ten take away like we've been doing here, A minus B and it comes out the same as this, it'll be ten take away plus A, just take away A, and then take away minus B. Well taking away a minus B is the same as adding B. Erm do you remember the table?... For when we're adding and taking away and things. That if we have, let's have a look at some of the easier ones. If we're adding a positive number, so if I say add plus three to a number, it's the same as just adding them, okay? If I. so these are say those are the, that's a positive number and that's a negative number, and this is, it's, that means just add the positive version. Now how about if I take away? If I take away a positive number of course that's taken as normal take away. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Good. What about if I add a negative number? I'm going to add some money to, how much money, how much money have you got? You've got ten pounds say, I'm going to add some money to that good. So I'll add two pound to it, I'll add a positive amount to it and you've got more, you've got twelve. My, next day I come in and say oh I'm going to add some money to what you've got, and you think oh that's good. How much have you got, put it on the table. So you put your ten one pound coins on the table and I say well I'm going to add minus eight pounds to it tonight, [unidentified noise] help yourself to eight pounds,. I've added. [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Very much like taking away to me that did, very much like no no no no []. I was adding minus eight pounds to what you had. I've got eight pounds left, well it's the same. Adding a negative number is the same as taking it away. Okay? So [Ian:] It's minus. [John:] That's, that's not minus that's take away, right. The ones with the rings around them are, are positive or, or negative. So adding the positive number that's just normal adding, adding a negative number that's the same as taking it away. And you're [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] going, where's me eight pound gone? He's told me he was going to add to my money and he said, oh the bad news is I'm adding a negative amount of money to it, and he's taken away. Okay, now the good news the next night is that I'm gonna take away some of your money, and you think, oh wow he's taking. Last night he said he was adding and he took away so what's he gonna do tonight when he said, really admits he's taking it away. I say, I'm gonna take away minus eight pounds... Let's say so I add it. Let's say erm we forget about all that ten pound early and you owed me a hundred pounds, right, and I say erm forget that, just, just take it away, forget it it's gone, you're a hundred pounds better off. We've taken away, let's say erm have you got a bank or a building society account or anything? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Right. So let's say you're, let's say I'm the building society and you can have your put in your book and that. You make a withdrawal, they take it away and let's say you can go overdrawn, so you've got eighty pound in the building society, and you take a hundred out, how much have you got left now? [Ian:] None. [John:] Less than none. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] You've got minus twenty. [Ian:] Minus twenty. [John:] Okay, you're twenty pounds over, you owe them, you owe me the building society, twenty pounds. Now if I say, oh well as it's I mean Easter we'll forget about that. Right? I've got your balance here and I say what have you got? You've got minus twenty, well I'll take away, let's put the sign round that. Usually they put debit after it or something, or put it in red. That's a minus twenty. If I take away the minus twenty well I'm taking it from the same thing aren't I? I'm taking a minus twenty from [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] a minus twenty so it's got to be zero, the answer, taking away a negative, it would be the same if I added, if, if it was minus twenty and I added twenty come to zero, they'd just cancel out. So if I take away a negative number it's the same as adding. You come into the building society and you're, you've got no money in the world and you owe twenty pounds and I say oh we'll take that away, we'll take that minus twenty away. You walk out twenty pound richer. You've got no more money but twenty pounds so taking away a negative number is the same as adding, yeah? And again if the signs are the same, I mean I know they're not exactly the same this is and add and that's a positive, it's the same as adding a positive number. A negative and a positive it's the same as taking away. A positive and a negative, it's the same as taking away. this was, this was the night I added minus eight pound to your money, and walked off with eight of it, [LAUGHTER] right []? And then this, this time I say well I'm going to take away some money and I took away a negative amount and you've finished up with more. So all you need to do is remember that table which is the same, the same as when you, this is for adding... adding or subtracting, and the same table for multiplying or dividing, yeah?... A positive times a pos... [tape change] [Ian:] It's not no. [John:] And it's no good just looking at little bits of it. You want to sort of look at the whole picture together. Erm do you think you got the whole picture? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, you can guess what comes next don't you? [Ian:] questions. [John:] questions first to build up.... Erm... seventeen take away ten take away three. How would you, if you had to do that if you do it the easy way, don't do it the hard way, how would you do that? [Ian:] Ten minus three, is seven. [John:] Is seven. [Ian:] Seventeen minus seven. [John:] Is ten. So if we get it right the answer should come to ten. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Now I want you to do it the hard way, I mean you wouldn't normally do it this way but when you've got letters in you've got no choice. So we'll do it while the numbers are there to get you familiar with it. So what we'll do is we'll put that, that means take away, right? That's a positive ten there and this is a negative three here, if you like.... So take away a positive... I'm going to take away a positive ten pounds away from you now. [Ian:] It's take away, minus. [John:] So that comes up, that comes out as a minus yeah as a minus ten.... Now I'm gonna take away a minus three. [Ian:] Minus seven. Er it's a seven. [John:] Just. Well we're just looking at the [Ian:] I these minus and pluses and that. [John:] Well there's two, there's two, there's two things, there are four things going on here, and it's, it was designed to be confusing. It's not, it's not just you and everyone going what on earth is going on here. Because we've got, and you've seen this before, we'll just have a look, get this right if you can. What's that? No that's a plus. What's that? [Ian:] Take away. [John:] Erm no that's a negative. You can't tell they're the same the only way you can tell is if they're, if they're working with number, I mean... that's a plus or a positive that's a positive three. That means take away, if it's between two numbers it means take away. So this one is take away.... And what's this one? [Ian:] Take away. [John:] This is a take away, but we can treat it, take away three is the same as add minus three. Let's write this out again seventeen take away ten add minus three. Yeah? I'm going to add some money tonight. [LAUGHTER] The bad news is I'm gonna add minus three pounds to what you've got there. Well we know how to, how to work when it's add. We just do the first thing and then we do the second thing. You see this, this sign outside the brackets let's change this as well. Let's make this seventeen erm add... minus whatever this number is. Is this getting more confusing and you can think of that as seventeen add minus one times and then we're multiplying into the brackets. Seventeen add this big number here which is minus one times whatever we've got in here... minus one times ten, what will that give us?... Minus one times ten? [Ian:] ... Ten. [John:] Are the signs the same or different? [Ian:] Different. [John:] So I'm gonna say? [Ian:] Positive. Negative. [John:] That's it. Signs are different [Ian:] Okay. [John:] will give me minus and so a minus one times a ten gives us a minus ten. Now a minus one times a minus three? [Ian:] Is a positive three. [John:] A positive. Plus that's the same plus from there, plus a positive three. That's what they'll come to there, so we've got seventeen add minus ten add plus three. That's seventeen as well. Seventeen add a minus ten the same as take away a positive take away a positive ten, and add a positive three. We've got all positive numbers now. Hurray. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So we can drop the signs and we can forget about mentioning whether they're positives or negatives, and get now a nice straightforward, seventeen take away ten add three. Seventeen take away ten? [Ian:] Seven. [John:] Add three. [Ian:] Ten. [John:] Ten, okay? So... same as, same as you got here. What's what di do you get here? [Ian:] Ten. What I've done was three minus ten seven. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Seventeen minus seven. [John:] Good. The big thing is we've got two things going on here, two different types, one of them is a, a f. One, one is an operation add or subtract. What does add mean? [Ian:] Adding the two values to together. [John:] What does it mean, you're still using adding, what does add mean?... [Ian:] Put them together you know? [John:] Okay, what does it mean in terms of the number line?... the number line there, and we want to do something like two add three, what does that mean? [Ian:] You start at two positive to [John:] Right, good. So we've left a bit of this out, we're, we're a bit sloppy in our notation, we should be saying let's put a sort of a ring round the whole thing, to show that's the number positive two. Add positive three, see this thing of using the same symbol for add and for positive is very confusing, very confusing, it's as though, you know you're speaking a different language where one word has about fifteen different meanings and you can't understand what they're talking about most of the time. So... positive two add positive three, what does that mean? [Ian:] Start at the two. [John:] Start at positive two okay? What does add mean?... What does g g go [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] along is right, erm which way? [Ian:] Positive [John:] Go, go that's it go along towards the positive numbers. So you better count along that way for how many? [Ian:] Three. [John:] One, two, three. So the answer is positive five [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] is that right? Okay. Now what would this mean? Minus two add positive three. Don't tell me, I can guess. What does this minus two mean? [Ian:] Start in the negative. [John:] That's where we start. So we start negative two, minus two, and I know what add means cos you told me last time. Count along towards whoops. Count along for how many? [Ian:] For three. [John:] For three. One two three. So the answer should be one. [Ian:] One. [whispering] Positive one []. [John:] Is that right? Positive one. Yep. Okay, now. You didn't think adding up or taking away was this hard did you? [Ian:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Because it's very, I mean you know mathematicians have written books about this, erm and yeah kids of five or six are quite happily adding and taking away until they get to negative numbers, until someone says ah I'm going to add to that money you've got there, I'm gonna add minus seven. You can get a tantrum [LAUGHTER] you won't get away with explaining []. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So, okay. A minus two add a positive three, now what would minus two add so that's a negative two, add a negative three mean? Well minus two is where you start, okay. Add, that means go along towards the positive numbers, and I'm going to count, how many am I going to count? [Ian:] Minus three. [John:] Oh. I count in that direction though, so minus means, minus three means count the other way. So I start from them and I count this way. [Ian:] That's a minus. [John:] One two three, and I finish up there, minus three, minus four, minus five. The other way of looking at it is you can say I'm going to count... you start from nought and you count along that way until you get to this number, so I'd go nought minus one, minus two, minus three. So altogether I'd still count three that way. So negatives go that way. Now how about if I do four... add minus five. So it's plus four add minus five. Okay that's always the number where you start isn't it? So we start at positive four add, add to count in the positive direction, oh [Ian:] Minus. [John:] we're adding minus five, whoops switch round count the opposite way. So from four we count five backwards count minus five just means count down the opposite way, so we go one, two, three, four, five, so it should be minus one. Yeah? Negative one. Now the tricky one, let's do plus four make it plus five, plus five a a takeaway a negative three. Okay? Where do we start? [Ian:] Plus five. [John:] Plus five, no problem there, start where the first number tells us to start. Take away, what does that mean? [Ian:] Count negative [John:] Count that way. So if we said take away three, let's do this first it's bit easier, plus five take away plus three, you start at plus five, take away means count that way, count to the left towards the negative numbers, so we count three. Plus five, count three, one two three. [Ian:] Two, plus two. [John:] So. It should be plus two. Now what does this one mean, you tell me? Plus five take away minus three. [Ian:] Start at plus five [John:] Okay. [Ian:] going that way. [John:] That take away means we're going in that direction, and how many are we going to go? [Ian:] Three. [John:] Three or minus three? [Ian:] Minus three. [John:] Minus three. When we were taking away three we went in this direction, for three. But to take away a minus three [Ian:] Go the other way. [John:] go in the opposite direction, turned your pen round and you go the other way. So A take away a negative, those two signs together is the same as an add. A positive. When we did our table... this is for adding and taking away erm that's a positive number and that's a negative number, okay? Add a positive number is the same as a these are all the things you do with positive numbers, this is add a positive number is the same as add a positive number, right. So that's add a positive number, these are all for the positive numbers, add a positive number, okay? Take away a positive number, well okay we [Ian:] Take away. [John:] take away, a positive number... right. Add a negative number, this is when I said I'm going to add minus eight pounds to your money tonight, add a negative number is the same as take away a positive number. Add take away a negative number is the same as add the positive number. So whether it means add or take away or subtract or negative we can sort of forget about it and just look at the signs so if get... if we get take away plus three, that will be the same as take away plus three, yeah? Take away three. If we got add minus three, that's the same as take away plus three, just take away three. The interesting one is when we've got take away... a minus three, that's the same as add the positive three, add plus three. Now, what I'd like you to do... this, this is not straightforward. [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's er anyone can do this you know. People, people always think that until you start throwing in the double negatives and they think, whoa, don't want to know! [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] No no no no this is all rubbish you're making this up as you go along [LAUGHTER] yeah? [LAUGHTER] It doesn't se it's not natural is it? Not sort of, it's not obvious. [Ian:] Especially when I could do this one yeah, erm positive five going that way [John:] Mm. [Ian:] and then turning back this way. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] You know, when all I've ever known is plus is this way, negative this way, it's either that way or that way, you know. [John:] Right. Now I'd like you to just have a look at these for next time erm... and work them out on the number line. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Erm because that's what gets you to accept it and stop thinking this is a load of rubbish, this is a con he's just making this up. Yeah I am making it up, it's not me making it up, mathematicians had things like erm you, you, you met this sort of earlier on in school. What's seven take away three? Okay, what does that come to? [Ian:] Four. [John:] No problem, one number take away another number gives us a number, wow that's great. Okay, what's three take away seven? Infants [Ian:] Minus [John:] infants school and you say can't do it. It's obviously a load of rubbish. You ask some kid, he'll say there you are I've got three pens on the table now take away seven. think he's off his chump you know. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] What's he on about, and then just forget about it and they go and play in the sand or something and he's crackers that bloke. And they're probably quite right. But cos mathematicians are a bit crackers, we want, we don't like saying I can't do that. we'll, we'll, we'll find a way. You know we'll change the rules so we can do it, we'll move the goal posts slightly [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] We'll, we'll make sure we can do that. That's what they say well we have this silly game that we play on the number line, going up and down the thing and when you do three start from three, count seven in the opposite direction we finish up at this number called minus four. Well what on earth is minus four? You show me minus four in anything, there's mi minus four houses out there. There's mi minus four people coming to the party tonight, they're all crackers, okay but it works, it's very useful it solves an awful lot of problems like you know getting rockets to the moon and things like that that we couldn't do otherwise. It comes in handy with your bank statement your temperature, oh it's minus six. It's, tonight it's, think of these as a sort of temperature numbers that, try, try these, it starts at plus three tonight and then it drops five degrees, plus three and it drops five degrees, what does it come to? Okay, it's minus seven and it drops minus three. It's erm minus fourteen and it drops by minus six.... fourteen take away six. Er oh keep these numbers small so you can sort of play about on the number line more easily, and ten minus, minus ten take away minus four. Six add minus three, three add minus six. And minus six take away minus six. Any number take away itself, what should it come to? [Ian:] Nought. [John:] Yeah. So minus three take away minus three should come to nought.... Minus six take away minus seven. And minus six take away minus five and then X take away minus one. X take away minus X. Take away X, which is just plus X, X take away X. And three X take away minus two X.... Hey now on the number line you can't it's difficult to do X take away X but you can work out roughly where they'd be and what you would do and what the system would be. So if you have a look at those and play with them for next time erm and make sure that you learn those two rules about if the signs are the same [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] it's always then a plus sign, whether it means an add or a plus. Al also the way we talk about it is very very sloppy, we often say A minus B when we should be saying plus A take away plus B. We start talking like that people he's off again. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] He's flipped []! Erm... it's, it's, negative numbers aren't a natural thing, fractions are actually easier and that was what happened in the history of mathematics, fractions were developed a long long time before negative numbers, the old Greeks used to play about with fractions quite a lot. Negative numbers came later. Anyway I must dash because I've got [Ian:] I'll do that for [John:] So you have had before I try and don't, I won't go off with your homework hone honestly I won't. Erm now next week er where are we, right. You still want a lesson next week? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Usual time, okay. That's good.

[John:] Now let's have a look at some circuit diagrams. have a few of those in. Erm don't know if you want to look at some on the paper,... have a look at some in the paper and see how you do on those. [Andrew:] Circuit diagrams, erm I'm usually okay with circuit diagrams. [John:] Right, okay. Erm just a bit of quick revision, don't think you need to work out the examples cos you're, you're okay at working them out. You've got something like this. Erm... you've got a, a battery and you've got say er what? Say six ohms on each of these in parallel... and two ohms there and that's say a twelve volt battery erm could you work out the current in that resistor? Tell me how you'd go about it, what sort of thing would you w where would you start? They just want to know [Andrew:] There's the [John:] the current in that resistor. [Andrew:] Er the current in that resistor? [John:] In this bottom resistor one of the six o in fact tell you what, we'll make it awkward for you. Here you are, we'll make erm we'll make that bottom one twelve ohms. a six ohms, so the three in parallel. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] We want to know the current in that. [Andrew:] Current is resistance is equal to voltage divide by current, so it's Ohm's Law. [John:] Right. So where do you start? Cos that's, that's a typical question that [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] they give. A mixture of series and parallel, which you've done before but you probably need a bit of revision. [Andrew:] [yawn]... Erm I've gotta work out the current of the twelve volts first. [John:] Right. The current in the, the first thing is work out the current in the whole circuit. How are you going to do that? [Andrew:] So I have to work out what the entire value of these is. The six o the six ohms and the twelve ohms. What's the oh formula for parallel resistance? [John:] What's the formula for series resistance? That one's easier, the, you can [Andrew:] you add them, together. [John:] Just add them together. So the parallel one is the other one, the awkward one, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] remember what that is? [Andrew:] Erm resistance one... plus resistance two divide by is it? Erm oh [John:] You've got three resistors [Andrew:] Yeah. Divide by resistance. No. I can't remember. [John:] Okay, let's have a lo a little look at [Andrew:] It's an awkward one I know. [John:] Right, the series is no problem. We want to find, another little circuit here with R one and R two in it. Right, voltage there. You know that one, total resistance is equal to both in series.... [Andrew:] Er erm resistance R one plus R two. [John:] Right, so that one's no problem, R one plus R two. This one is a bit more of a problem. Just think about two first of all.... that's R one, this is R two. Resistance there is equal to [Andrew:] Erm [John:] and you were getting very close to it, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] with the formula, so think about it for two. And just sort of write down a few expression and then think ah that's not right or yes that's [Andrew:] Resistance of one divide by resistance of two, no. [John:] Just have a, have a scribble and see what it looks like. [Andrew:] I can't honestly e erm... [John:] Oh. I, I have the feeling that it helps you to see it written down [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and for you to then actually have seen it sort of write it down rather than for someone just calling out to you. I don't know, do you agree with that? Or [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] not, but it is better that way. Okay look what they say and if they've got a diagram of. Erm five, this one. And we definitely don't want that one, do we? Volts in atoms. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So this is the sort of thing we've got. Two circuit elements I think we need the fire on today. Oh they're showing how to derive them, which you don't really need. just sort of scribble something down, even if you, even if you don't think it's right. [Andrew:] I, I can't think of it because that [John:] Erm [Andrew:] er [John:] because of w what's. What I'm trying to do is trying to get it the way it will be in an exam so, cos in an exam you're [Andrew:] Ah. [John:] going to have to start from somewhere, so [Andrew:] Haven't I honestly can't remember. That's as far as I could er [John:] Okay, what are the b write down any other things that you can remember about erm I mean turn that over, you can remember Ohm's [Andrew:] I can't remember anything. [John:] Law. [Andrew:] Yeah, I can remember Ohm's Law. [John:] Okay write down Ohm's Law, and that's, when you, when you sort of pull things out of your memory it, your memory is usually all in blocks of links... So... [whispering] [] [Andrew:] Oh God. [John:] Four.... Right.... [Andrew:] Er [John:] Think, think about Ohm's Law in terms of what current is, okay now, good. Now are you certain about that? Yeah. Good. So you can look at that, not just sort of little symbols er not really meaning much but we're going to look at what happens to the current. If you make the voltage higher, it'll keep the resistance the same, what happens to the current? [Andrew:] Er if you took voltage [John:] So so let's say you've got a light bulb. [Andrew:] No, I just wondered if you make the voltage higher and [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] the resistance the same the current goes up. [John:] Current goes up. So you, you can sort of think about it. Get a, get a twelve volt car bulb and start it up at twelve volts and wind the voltage up. You [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Okay []. [John:] leave it till about sort of thirty odd and pow, the current's going up. Okay? I if you put, if you make the resistance, keep the voltage the same, you make the resistance higher, what happens to the current?... Keep increasing the resistance for the same voltage, what happens to the current? [Andrew:] Er if you keep increasing the resistance of the, what happens to the current? Er... say it again, I [John:] So we've got, let's think, think of a [Andrew:] Yeah I know I, I just want to say it [John:] specific example [Andrew:] again, I keep on, as I'm thinking [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] over it again. [John:] So the voltage isn't changing, you don't [Andrew:] You [John:] need to worry about that. It's a steady pressure trying to push that through, and we increase the resistance, we make more resistance [Andrew:] Less current. [John:] So less current, okay? So just think of resistance as sort of something that stops the current, and as you increase it the current gets less. So those are both the right way, the V is on the top, because that's the more, the bigger V gets, then the bigger the current is going to get. The R is on the bottom because the bigger R gets, the smaller. Right [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] if you have R ten times what it was in the pres the previous one, you'll now only get a tenth of the current out. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Make, make the resistance a hundred times what it was you'd only get a hundredth of the current. Make your voltage twice what it was, and keep everything else fixed, you'll get twice the current. So that's, that is the way that most people find is easiest to remember Ohm's Law. You don't have to remember all of them, cos if you remember one you just need a little bit of maths to work out the others. Erm so that's one you can remember on your own, you can work it out, you can write it down. What about erm power? And erm the, what, how would you work out, think of a practical example, how would you work out the wattage erm if you know the current? [Andrew:] Erm the wattage if you know the current. [John:] So you know I mean this is, okay, let's say you haven't got a clue, you can't work out what it is so you think oh alright, I'm stuck. Well [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] let's get something practical, fan heater, let's say it's about ten amps. It's probably getting on for thirteen. Let's say it's about ten amps so which way round would it go? Erm we've got I equals V over R, doesn't help there. And we've got this one for wattage, what's the wattage? Well the wattage of a fan heater is about what? Er let's say it's about two point four kilowatts. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Right. Two point four kilowatts. That's the wattage and the current, [Andrew:] Er [John:] fan heater, say around ten amps. I [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] mean you, you know these things, you know roughly what the wattage of a [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] fan heater is, you know roughly what current it takes. And you know what the voltage is [Andrew:] Yeah, two forty. [John:] Two forty. So what's the tie up between those? Er these are actual values, something you know, so you're not dealing with a, a weird isolated concept. [Andrew:] Ten times two forty. [John:] Right, so it looks as if [Andrew:] Current times voltage. [John:] looks as if watts is equal to the voltage times the current, the current times the voltage. And it is. [LAUGHTER] So that's a way of not relying on remembering, cos you've got so many little squiggles you've got to remember, not just in physics, in chemistry and in everything else. If you tried to remember them all as just these equations, you'd be very easily getting confused about which one was which and you'll just get your head cluttered with all sorts of stuff and... so that way something that you know, something you can bring it back to. So watts is V I, now this is a common question that you get. Erm let's say a hair dryer... is rated at erm er let's make it a telly. T V is rated at... a hundred and twenty watts, right? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] How big a fuse would you put in it? [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay? That, that's how they'd word [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the question. So how would you go about that? How would you think about that? [Andrew:] Right. Watts is equal to voltage times current. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] So it's a hundred and twenty I'll write the equation down.... A hundred and twenty equal to two forty, now... erm [John:] If you don't know it, current is the one we're trying to find out, you just leave it as I. So you've done is rewritten your equation, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] filled in the ones you know. And the one you don't know is still there. So now you've got your equation. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That's m almost done the problem. All you've got to do now is a little bit of maths to [Andrew:] Right. Two forty a hundred and twenty plus V times it by oh have to divide it by, so it would be er... watts over voltage is er [John:] You do it, it doesn't matter which way, whether you do it [Andrew:] Yeah, yeah [John:] that way or not, but [Andrew:] it'll make it easier. [John:] . Okay....... okay? So it's a half amp so what sized fu and they would probably give you erm, are you going to use a three amp, a five amp or a fif or a thirteen amp fuse? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And once you've worked it out, you can tell. Now that one sort of came out quite easily, some of them will come point eight amps, or two point [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] four amps or things like that so, but that's, that comes up quite a lot, that sort of thing. So you're okay on that you, you've got from thinking oh I'm stuck on the other, I've nowhere to start, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] y I mean you know quite a lot about electrical things, practically [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] you can, you can do them and you know what fuses to put in, you know what you're doing. So use that knowledge and bring it in don't keep it. Don't sort [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] of leave it outside on the exam and think ooh it's squiggles time now, I can't remember which squiggles go on top and which are on the bottom. Bring in [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] your outside knowledge, use that and then you're not relying so much on, oh no I've got more and more formulae to learn, more things. You can work it out and you know if you get it, even if you're not sure of the original formula, if you get it upside down, you can look at it, this is no good. The more I increase the resistance, the more current is getting through, oh it [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] must be the other way round, cos that's not right. Okay? So going back to the parallel, have you had any thoughts about it? [Andrew:] Parallel [John:] Resistance in parallel. [Andrew:] I honestly can't remember what it was. [John:] No, okay. Okay, okay. [Andrew:] I can't, I can't [John:] forget about that for the mo [Andrew:] I did know it. [John:] You did, cos you were doing [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] them very nicely. Erm what's the sort of real shape, it's not just you it's everyone sort of doing GCSEs at the moment, erm I'm getting this quite a lot. They say, oh I did about five examples of this, got them all right, no problems straight, but now I just haven't got a clue, don't know where to [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] start, what to do or anything so, you need a little bit of practice at doing them for, for revision and then it, it's not nearly as hard as when you first learnt, it pulls it out of your head again and then sort of puts it back in a bit more settled down and easier to retrieve. Erm I don't think I have got any written down here for you to have a look so I'll have to write it down for you erm stuff about Stanley knives. er chemistry, chemistry, chemistry and chemistry. [LAUGHTER] One two three four chemistry books there, physics erm let's have a look if Ohm's Law's in, we can find anything about him.. No it hasn't got any Ohm's Law, it hasn't got much about electricity in that at all. Er have you got any notes on it, don't mean get them now, have you got notes on what you did on resistors in series and in parallel? [Andrew:] Erm Yeah. I probably [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] have somewhere. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Buried in some [John:] Buried, buried. [Andrew:] in piles of paper. [John:] Have you got your text books, with you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you can look it [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] up. Cos I don't, I don't want to do much of, I know you you want me to show you. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But I want to do so much of [Andrew:] Yeah I, I even remember [John:] It, it's very se [Andrew:] looking them up and [John:] Right. [Andrew:] them and everything. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] But I cannot remember. I remember the teacher showing me in school, as well, how to do it and I just, I can't remember [John:] So [Andrew:] how to do it. [John:] when you find out, you must try and think of some way that y can make you to think of it. Have it like this. Say you've got erm I mean think of elec electrical wires, like pipes. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay and if we put... perhaps a water tank here and the water's trying to get out and we've got these two big pipes, go through one big pipe and one little pipe.... What we're trying to do is ref replace those three [Andrew:] [sniff] [John:] with another pipe. Now would it be bigger than. let's, let's look at it this way, erm with a small pipe so much water gets out, okay? Small pipe is offering a lot of resistance to the water so that's a sort of fairly high resistance. A bigger pipe, more water goes through offering less resistance. If someone said oh we don't want two pipes it's a bit messy, take them out and replace them by one that had the same resistance, that lets the same amount of water through, what would you replace those by? I mean would it be bigger or smaller or what? Just sort of talk about that. [Andrew:] Er... [John:] It's just water.... [Andrew:] if it was water and you wanted more to flow off? [John:] You want, want to get the same amount, I mean we've got a certain amount of water coming through that pipe, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and a certain amount coming through this pipe. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But someone says oh this is a bit messy having these two pipes, couldn't we just have one pipe that did exactly the same job. Now would it be a smaller pipe, a bigger pipe or what? [Andrew:] Bigger, than both of them. [John:] It would be bigger than both of them. So it'd be perhaps a little bit bigger than this big one cos the small one wouldn't make a lot of difference so perhaps it would be that, that big, or something. Now a bigger pipe, has that got more resistance or less resistance? [Andrew:] A bigger pipe has got m more resistance. It's, less. [John:] Less resistance. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. So so if we get two resistors... and we put one there, say that's a hundred ohms. [Andrew:] Mm. Mhm. [John:] And we put another one here, say fifty ohms. Right, this is low this is this is letting a lot through, this isn't letting so much through. If we replace them by, instead of those we're just going to have one resistor. What it's going to be like, roughly? I mean is it going to be a thousand ohms, two ohms or what? Just a guess, not, no calculations, no formula just sort of your common sense, what would you think about that? Now a hundred and fifty ohms, okay that's more resistance. That's letting less electricity through. Think of one at a time. Just cover up the hundred ohms, let's take it out of the circuit. Right, all the electricity is going through the fifty ohm. quite happy with that, running all their motors and stuff. And then somebody puts another piece of wire in, I'm not saying how much resistance it is, but somebody puts another piece of wire. Are you going to get more current going through or less? [Andrew:] ... Mm more current. [John:] Right. You're going to get more, it's just as if we had just the big pipe from the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] reservoir, and someone puts a little pipe on as well. Okay, you don't get much more but we're going to get more. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you said here to replace the two pipes, the sort of medium pipe and the small pipe you'll have one that's a bit bigger than the big pipe. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] We're doing the same thing here, we've got a, a low resistance letting a lot of current in, letting a lot of current go through. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] And then somebody put another one in. Okay it's only a small pipe, it's got a high resistance, it doesn't let much through, but it does let some more through. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So have another guess at what the resistance is going to be. [Andrew:] Er... [John:] In terms of sort of like [Andrew:] er... I haven't a hundred [John:] Right. [Andrew:] and fifty ohms. [John:] A hundred and fif [Andrew:] Oh! Fifty ohms, [John:] Right. Well a hundred and fifty means, a hundred and fifty is high resistance, not [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] much gets through. The problem with this, the, the, the problem where it's hard to see is cos we're dealing with an inverse. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] As the resistance gets higher and higher the current goes down. But what we're doing is as the resistance gets lower we get more current through. So with fifty ohms we were getting a cer let's say with fifty ohms we were getting about ten amps going through. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Right. Somebody puts another resistor, another, not a resistor, conductor cos it's going to let some more get through, no matter how much resistance it'll still let some get through. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So let's say now, when we put that one on as well we're getting eleven amps through. So it was ten amps with just the one, just the fifty ohm and now it, I mean this isn't right but just a, let's say that with both we're going to get about eleven amps. We haven't changed the voltage, we've got more current going through. So what's happened to the resistance? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Got Ohm's Law, current is equal to voltage over resistance, well we haven't changed voltage, we've kept that fixed. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But now we find that we've got more current going through. Well we know we've changed the resistance so did we make the resistance more or less? We've got more current going through now. [Andrew:] We made it more. Less! [John:] Okay, it's on the bottom, so if we had ten times, we made it ten times as big then we don't get ten times the current we get one tenth. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] This is the, the awkward bit, that it's all upside down. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] It's an inverse relationship. So we put another wire on, don't think of it as resistance, think of it as a conductor, it's going to let some more current through. We've got so much going through the big wire, put another little wire on as well. Some more'll go through that. More current going through, changed the voltage, so it must mean the resistance has gone down. Resistance has increased, so have another guess, just a guess. Don't try and do any sums on it and think ooh I'll square one and add it on half the other. It was, it was... without this hundred on it was fifty ohms. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] We put an extra one on, what's it going to be now, roughly? Just a, you know, just a guess. Is it going to be more than a hundred? Or what? [Andrew:] Less. [John:] I mean it's not going to be a hundred and fifty, because a hundred and fifty is [Andrew:] It's going to be less than fifty. [John:] That's it. So that's it, that's, that's more or less, that's the end of your analysis now. Yeah? You've worked out what happens, it's going to be less. Whatever the resistance of this comes to it's going to be less than fifty ohms. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? Erm if it's more, well this is ridiculous because we were getting, that means getting some more current going through there has sort of changed everything else, so it's going to be less than fifty ohms. Well then if you weren't sure of your formula, if you tried the formula, who's been doing that? [Andrew:] Right. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [] [cough] S [Andrew:] Er oh yeah I forgot to ask you. Would you like a drink, soft drink? I [John:] I [Andrew:] can't really make coffee because no one else is here and it'll waste a lot of time. [John:] Right, erm no thanks I'm fine. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I had a coffee. You have one though if you want. [Andrew:] No it's okay. [John:] I had one just before I came out, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so I'm alright. So we could try different things, there's this one over it comes in somewhere doesn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So let's try one over resistance equals one over R one plus one over R two.... Why does this, do you know what one over resistance is by the way? [Andrew:] Erm it's one divided by resistance. [John:] Have you heard of conductance? [Andrew:] No. [John:] Well if we were, you, you've got the lawnmower outside, a sort of electric Flymo or something, and you want to get some current out there to it, to run it. Erm you don't get a piece of string, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what would you get? [Andrew:] An extension, [John:] An and copper is a good [Andrew:] Conductor. [John:] So you look for a conductor [Andrew:] It's a conductor. [John:] I mean if you were being really dangerous and you wanted to die soon you could just sort of get a piece of bare wire and [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] run it out there and run it off that until it touched something. So you're looking for a conductor. A conductor is something that electricity goes along and there's a properties of metals called its conductance and it was, it, we might, might be better thinking of, thinking of its, its conductance. So if you think of pipe as how much water it can conduct. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] This one say can conduct two gallons a minute.... Right? And this one can conduct twenty gallons a minute. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. So how much will th if you want to replace them by one pipe how much will this pipe have? [Andrew:] Twenty two gallons a minute. [John:] Twenty two gallons a minute. This is the pipe's conductance, if you like. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] So we just add them together. Well this is conductance, the inverse, one over resistance is conductance.... So the conductance of this circuit is equal to the conductance of that bit plus the conductance of that. So it's just going to come to one over... fifty plus one over a hundred. Okay? What does that come to? [Andrew:] Erm one over fifty plus one over a hundred is er one, two over a hundred and fifty. Oh got to find [John:] So that's [Andrew:] Three over two hundred. [John:] Three over what? One hundred? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Okay? So let's think of that as, okay. Two over a hundred plus one over a hundred,. So the conductance is one over R is equal to that [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right? Which comes to, so one over the resistance is that so the resistance is turn it upside down, a hundred over three. What does that come to roughly? [Andrew:] Er three, thirty three? [John:] Around about thirty three ohms. Does that [Andrew:] Thirty three and one third. [John:] Yeah, excellent. Point three recurring. Thirty three and a third is better actually. A nicer way of putting it. Thirty three and a third ohms, does that sound about right? Yeah that looks about the right sort of thing, cos it was fifty ohms and we've put, I mean it's not that much small you know it's not going to let, it should let about half as much through as that lets through this shouldn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So if this was letting, if this was letting ten amps through then this one should let about five amps through. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Does that seem reasonable to you? If [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] fifty ohms lets ten amps go through then a hundred ohms will let half as much, it'll, will let five amps go through. So we've got the circuit like that originally, ten amps going through it.... Put this one on and s oh we get another five amps through there. So altogether we'll have fifteen amps and the resistance is now... two thirds of what it was. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Two thirds of fifty. So we're just adding the conductances again, and if we did it with three of, we had sort of three pipes [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] and say well think of the conductance, don't think of it as resisting and stopping the water, how much can it get along and get through? How much can it conduct through? Conductance, one over resistance is equal to R one plus one over R two plus one over R three. as many as you like, keep putting lots and lots and lots of extra wires on. So... with that you should be able to... do that problem yourself. Now what I want you to do is not look at that. I'll leave it with you but don't look at it. Just try and remember what we were doing but the pig about resistance is it's one over and think ooh we're all into weird fractions and everything seems to work the opposite way round to the way you'd expect it. So get out of that, change your model, change your way of looking at it. Don't think of it as something resisting electricity, think of it as conducting, helping it along. Erm you know a lot about electricity, if I'm going to use this little thin wire. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And I'm going to say right, I'm going to run my fan heater off that, [Andrew:] [sigh] [John:] what would you say? [Andrew:] You're mental. [John:] It's not going to conduct enough, you want a better conductor. You want a big foot thick copper conductor, that'll get a lot of it through. Get something with a good conductance, not something with a high resistance but something with a high conductance. So if you use that and just have a look at this problem here.... Find out what's the current through the twelve ohm resistor, through in fact... through each resistor.... [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] Okay? Is that all right, it's very scrappy [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you can see what we mean there. You've got two six ohms, a twelve ohm and a ten ohm, and twelve volts there, so the first thing. What's, how, how're you going to go about the problems, sort of talk through the stages. [Andrew:] Right I'll work out the current I'll work out the resistance [John:] Right. [Andrew:] the combined resistance of these and then I will add it to this resistance. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] I'll work out the total current flowing through the whole erm circuit then I'll work out the current through in through each of this here. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] And whatever w the current, what the current is when it leaves. [John:] Right. You can work out [Andrew:] Er [John:] you can work out the current through this one, pretty easily, when you work the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] total resistance. So that's not going to be much problem. Erm work out what the current is when it leaves. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Well think of this as a sort of water pipe system if you like. six ohm pipes.... And there's a twelve ohm which is a thinner one because it doesn't let as much go through. Okay? Here's some sort of strange manifold, okay? And water comes in there, goes out there and then again out of the, another manifold again. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And then it goes into another pipe. goes into this other resistor here, where it goes... and then it flows round again. So what happens to the water that comes in here? [Andrew:] It gets split up and then goes, most goes [John:] Split up three ways. [Andrew:] that way. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] A little goes that way and then a very small amount goes that way. [John:] Right. So a lot of it's going to go through the big pipe and then what happens to it when it's come through the, the, these three pipes? [Andrew:] It pushes [John:] It joins up again. And here's the other resistance. So you were saying about finding out how much current goes through... [Andrew:] Er yeah. [John:] So what, hmm the water comes in here. Let's say the water comes in here at sort of ten gallons a minute. What rate does it come out of the end here? [Andrew:] Ten gallons a minute. [John:] Right. Pick any point, there say,... or here [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] or there. How much water's flowing past in a minute? [Andrew:] Ten gallons a minute. [John:] Right. When it splits up and goes its separate ways we're not getting ten gallons a minute through that pipe or through that or [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] through that but in total we are. So it's the same water going all the way round, it's the same current going all the way through here, so if we've got ten gallons a minute of electricity coming in there, say ten amps, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] yeah? It splits up, some of it will go there, there, there, as you say the least of it will go down this high resistance. Then it all joins up again and goes back in, goes along here, so everything that goes down there, the ten amps goes through this one again, and back into the battery. We'll close this switch cos otherwise it's a very simple answer. What's the current in there? Non cos the switch is open. [LAUGHTER] Does that help you to sort of understand it better? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What, what's happening? Think of it, this as water analogy. It's all flowing round, it all starts off here, it all gets round and gets back again, the battery's like a pump, pumping it all round. Resistors are like pipes, if you work with a resistance it's always one over so forget about resistance, deal with conductance. I mean you still write one over resistance but don't think of the resistance part of it, think of the new one over as a separate entity. This is, this is how big your pipe is. Right. A big one over R is a big conductance. Big pipe big diameter pipe. It lets a lot through. So I think you can sort that out, pretty easily now. a factor tree on the back as well. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] As I say, don't be tempted to have a quick glance at that before you start the problem. Try and [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] just leave that unless you are totally stuck, and I don't mean sort of five minutes, have a good sort of maybe ten minutes or say about ten minutes of playing with this. Don't just think oh I don't know this, oh I can't do that, I don't know what the formulae are. Work out what you do know. Like on this one, you didn't know what the resistance was exactly, but you worked it out, well it's going to be less than, your first thought was add it together of course. A [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] hundred and fifty. That's because you, you want to, everyone does, you want to think in terms of conductances, so it's hard to get over this problem, so don't get over it. Think of conductances, every time you think of conductance just write one over R.... Erm so I think you can do, do it without working but if you need to it's there, so I'll leave that. And I think... you need to do a bit of revision on the firm basic [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] stuff there. that stopped?... You're going very slowly, I'll these batteries... there's the problem, there's little diagram to sort of think about it in terms of water. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] And there's, there's the answer, but don't look at that if you can. [Andrew:] I won't. [John:] Okay, I mean [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] it's up to you but [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] it's, I'm just trying to help [Andrew:] It helps [John:] I'm not trying to make it hard for you, I'm trying to work out what is useful for you, cos it's no good you just sort of more or less copying it out. Energy now. Erm power er different types of energy, how many have we got? Different types of energy? [Andrew:] Er... er chemical. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] [whispering] Erm kinetic energy, potential energy er electrical energy [] [John:] Okay. Just finishing off on electrical energy. How do you pay for the electrical energy that you use? [Andrew:] [whispering] How many kilowatts you've used []. [John:] kilowatts. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] You turn, you turn a three bar electric fire on, say. A big fan [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] heater. That's a three kilowatt heater erm [Andrew:] [sigh] [John:] so you've turned your kilow three kilowatt heater on for an hour and I'm gonna charge you,le let's say, thirty pence. Okay? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Charge, you've turned it on for ten hours, how much will I charge you? [Andrew:] Three pound. [John:] Yeah, why? It's right, why? [Andrew:] Cos it were using more [John:] It using it's us using it at the same rate but it's going for a longer time. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you don't just pay for kilowatts that you use, what do you pay for? [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] Erm you know it cos you've just told me the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] answer. You've just told me exac this is what you did. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] I said three kilowatts. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And it's running for ten hours. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] You multiplied them together. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Didn't you? Kilowatts [Andrew:] Per hour. [John:] times hours, it's not per hour. [Andrew:] kilowatt hours. [John:] Kilowatt hours. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Okay? And that's what we pay for and that's, when you want to work out how much a fan heater uses and you know, how long was it on for? If you just flick it on and off it's going to use very little. Leave it on for a year you'll get a bill. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So the energy is kilowatt hours. Kilowatts is not energy, it's the rate at which you're using energy, how quickly is this electrical appliance burning up electricity? Erm three kilowatt heater it's really sort of running away with electricity. Erm a light bulb is not using much electricity in a given time. But if you leave a light bulb on for a year, it'll cost you more than leaving the fan heater on for an hour. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So it's how quickly is it using electricity and how long did you leave it on for? So kilowatts is, is what? What, what are, what are kilowatts a measure of? [Andrew:] Er thousand watts. [John:] Right a kilowatts is a thousand watts and what is it measuring? [Andrew:] erm... watts is erm... er [John:] It's an awkward one, [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] And it's one that needs sort of a bit of thinking about, and again tie it back to the everyday things that you know quite a lot about, electrical appliances, things like that. [Andrew:] It's how much energy it uses, er [John:] Yeah. How much e energy it uses [Andrew:] [sigh] [John:] Carry on. [Andrew:] It's which ra how m it's the rate at which it uses [John:] The rate, that's it. [Andrew:] voltage. [John:] The rate at which it uses energy, it's the rate at which it's using the energy. So a three kilowatt fire is using it at a terrific rate, it's running away with electricity. A er twenty five watt lamp in the fridge is using it at a very low rate, it's hardly using any electricity.. So to work out how much energy you're using is, how quickly am I using up energy, well I'm using it at a rate of ten kilowatts. Right, so that's a lot of kilowatts is energy per second or energy per hour if you like. Kilowatts, watts, energy per hour. Watts is actually energy per second but if we think of it in terms of hours cos we've bought by, by, by hours. So to find out how much you pay for, how much actual energy has been used up, you think it, again going back to the water, if we have a big tank full of water and we're using it up, this time in terms of power, erm if we have something that's using up water at the rate of say six gallons a minute and someone's going to charge you for your water. Well let's say you've got a, a water meter, okay? Water meter, have you got a water meter here? [Andrew:] Don't think so. [John:] Let's say your wa your water is metered and erm you've got a, a washing machine using six gallons per minute. Right, you've got a garden hose running off your mains as well using, say,twe I don't know how much it uses twenty gallons a minute, something like that. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Erm if they're going to charge you for your water by how much you use, they don't just charge you twenty when you've got your hose running. They say well how many minutes did you have it running? Right, so it's twenty gallons per minute times, let's say you've got it going for ten minutes, ten mins and the per minutes and the minutes cancel out and the answer comes in gallons then. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You've used twenty gallons, that's how they find out how much you've used. It's very similar... [tape change] Let's say we've got things called el let's say they're electrons. Right? I mean they're not but let's say they b big packets of lots of electrons so we're using things at erm let's say watts is equal to so many electrons per second. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And erm well let's, let's, let's just say a hundred watts is a hundred electrons per second. And you wouldn't get a lot of heating out of a hundred electrons. So, and they charge you for how many electrons you use. And we've got this hundred watt thing running for twenty seconds, so oh say for oh fifty be sixty, for a minute, sixty seconds. So, how much, how many electrons get through? How many are you going to get charged for? You're going to get charged for the amount going through will be a hundred electrons per second times sixty seconds. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Seconds cancel out and you're going to get six thousand electrons. So six thousand electrons will go through and that's what they'll charge you for. Okay? [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] And when they, when they define watts and kilowatts and everything else in terms of energy that you can understand, like erm horsepower. Erm have you ever seen a moped with a plate on it? Erm ninety, ninety kilowatts. Something like that. You know cars are rated in horsepower, normally? [Andrew:] Yeah. Yeah. [John:] They can also be rated in kilowatts and on mopeds cos the regulation allow sort of what mopeds sixteen year olds can ride and I think it's sort of something like seventy kilowatts or ninety kilowatts, it might be ninety. They actually give its power in kilowatts, so there's this obvious equivalence between electrical and mechanical energy, so watts is not an amount of electricity it's a rate of using it up, it's a flow rate like gallons per minute. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Three kilowatt heater. [clapping] That's three thousand gallons a minute of electricity going through that if you like. A hundred watt light bulb has only a hundred gallons a minute going through, okay? It's a very [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] similar thing. It's a, it's a flow rate, it's rate of using up electricity, watts. So to find out how much you've used, you've got to multiply it by how long you've been using it for. And the electricity people charge you for kilowatt hours. Kilowatts, rate of using it up, times how many hours you've used it. Okay? Your hose pipe twenty gallons a minute, well you ran that for ten minutes say, so that was two hundred gallons we're going to charge you for there, and your six gallons a minute appliance here, you ran that for forty minutes, right? That's a gallon per minute times forty minutes... then cancel with gallons so they're going to charge you for two hundred and forty gallons. And that's, that's that's how your electricity was paying for it. It's a, it's an awkward thing to understand this, power and energy, energy is the lumps of the stuff itself. The gallons of water, the number of electrons. But erm power is the rate at which it's being used up. Horsepower is the rate at which energy is being produced or absorbed, usually being produced. Kilowatts, the rate at which. Erm now, moving on to other energy. Physical... bit more easy to get to grips with the physical stuff [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] [cough] Erm still got power as a rate of doing work. Car engine rated at fifty horsepower [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] or a hundred horsepower. How much energy would it use up? Well it depends on how long you run it. I mean, you can have a an X J six running for ten seconds and it uses hardly any petrol. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Little mini and run it for a year, run the engine ru non stop for a year and it's going to use quite a few gallons. So the horsepower isn't actually telling you how much energy in total but the rate at which it's being used up.. Erm now what about kinetic and... all the other different types of energy? [Andrew:] Er kinetic, potential, chemical... [John:] How would you convert erm potential energy into kinetic energy? In a machine. [Andrew:] In a machine, potential energy is something... erm potential energy is energy something possesses due to its position. [John:] Good. [Andrew:] State. [John:] That's an excellent definition. That's a sort of strict textbook definition, that, that's brilliant. [Andrew:] Er kinetic energy is the energy something possesses due to it's er movement [John:] Okay. That's it. That's excellent, textbook definition again. So potential is when it hasn't done anything yet, it's stored up ready for us to. So so some examples of potential energy. [Andrew:] Erm say you've got a stone on top a cliff. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] And the that possesses be potential energy. Er possesses potential energy [John:] So anything that can fall down and go faster as it falls. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm any other form of potential energy? [Andrew:] N... yeah. Er if you've str if you've got... [whispering] trying to think, er... can't think of anything, [] [John:] Erm how do you start a car? [Andrew:] with a car battery. [John:] Okay. So a car battery has stored up energy. How'd it, go through the whole process of how, of erm running a car. Starting it every morning. You get in your car and you start it every morning, you run around and come back, you start it again. [Andrew:] When you start the engine the battery store you, the battery which stores electrical energy [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] by chemical reactions. [John:] Good. [Andrew:] Erm when you start it you're closing a switch which star which starts the starter motor turning. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] That in turn cranks the engine over and [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] the engine fires and the starter motor then turns off. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Then, because the battery's used up energy the motor of the car turns the alternator [John:] Right. [Andrew:] which puts electricity which recharges the battery. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Puts electricity back into it. And then when you turn the engine off your battery's full and restored and you got to start it [John:] Good. [Andrew:] etcetera etcetera. [John:] Now, do you think, not now, but for sort of maybe for next time, or some time very soon, a little diagram, a little sort of flow chart if you like showing where, how the energy is changing from one form into another. Sort of where it's coming from, so we've got chemical energy. What types of chemical energy have we got in the system you've, you've juts been talking about? [Andrew:] Erm got chemical energy, electrical energy [John:] Okay, what types of chemical energy? [Andrew:] Oh, the battery. [John:] So the battery [Andrew:] And the engine where the [John:] Right. [Andrew:] petrol we're burning. [John:] And the fuel for the engine. That's, now that fuel is producing energy. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Does your battery produce energy? [Andrew:] Erm it stores it, it doesn't produ [John:] Good. Excellent, it just store any, it stores energy, it doesn't make any itself and that's the point that they want you to make erm normal little throw away batteries that you have in your tape recorder or something, they produce energy, they don't have energy sort of put into them, chemicals and things. But they produce energy and then they get clogged up, they sort of get blocked so they can't [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] produce any more, then you throw them away. But a car battery it stores up the energy so, okay, that produces energy, the fuel, erm what other types of... energy have we got now? [Andrew:] Er... potential energy and kinetic energy of the vehicle. [John:] In the, in the c this car system that [Andrew:] Oh. [John:] you've just been describing. [Andrew:] Oh, right. Erm there's e electrical. [John:] So electrical, erm what systems have you got there? [Andrew:] System erm [John:] What does the [Andrew:] there's the alternator. [John:] So what does the alternator do? [Andrew:] Er produces electricity. Or converts it. [John:] So it gets, electricity comes out. What goes into it? [Andrew:] Er [John:] What sort of energy? [Andrew:] Physical energy. [John:] What sort of physical energy? [Andrew:] Er erm the engine turning [John:] Right. Is it moving? [Andrew:] Yeah it's, it's circular er oh [John:] d you don't have to be that specific, you'd, really you'd want to know is it erm [Andrew:] It's physical. [John:] is it fixed, is it sitting there doing nothing or is it moving? Cos if it's [Andrew:] Moving. [John:] moving it's kinetic. [Andrew:] Kinetic. [John:] Okay. So you've got kinetic energy going into the alternator and producing electricity. What happens with the starter? [Andrew:] Er... that uses up ele converts electricity into kinetic energy. [John:] Electricity coming in, [whispering] [] going out, okay. So that's a, then you've got the other, you've got the, the.... What's happening there, you've got, fuel's making the engine go round. So using little things like that, so just a little box to show this is the alternator, that's the energy for, this is the battery and this is the fuel. Draw a diagram with, it doesn't have to be neat just sort of scrawl all over it and tat it until you get it to [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the way you want it. And then you just draw it out again so that someone could look at it and they could see the energy changes in front. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Starting up in the morning, the first thing you get in the car, start up, drive around, come back and park it. And what's happened to the energy? The energy changes? Have you lost any energy? What happens when you're driving along? Erm... what happens when you're driving along? [Andrew:] Er [John:] Where does the energy come from? [Andrew:] The petrol, [John:] So the big the thing that's providing everything, you take the petrol out, you won't go unless you're at the top of a hill, of course because it can [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] roll down. So this... primary source is your fuel.... Think about things when you go up and down hill.... Okay? Why, what makes you use more fuel? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] If you've got a lot of petrol and you're just like wasting it and you think oh, I'm going to use a lot more fuel in my driving today, what would you do? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Apart from keeping it [Andrew:] Yeah. Erm... drive up lots of hills and [John:] Drive up hill, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so up a hill all day, you can use a lot more [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right. Extra resistance. Where would your extra resistance come from? Okay you could drive with the hand brake on but you don't normally do that. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Where do [Andrew:] let pressure out of the tyres. [John:] Right. So there's, there's some resistance from [Andrew:] Air resistance on the car. [John:] Right. So if you want to really use petrol you know drive along the motorway [Andrew:] Drive a Range Rover. [John:] and just, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Drive a Range Rover at about a hundred and ten along the motorway, you [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] [fast sound] fuel. Yeah you can [Andrew:] I can see it sometimes. [John:] see it on that Transit you used to run, as I'm going along I can see it's going down. Can't actually see it move but I can see it if I look [Andrew:] If you look at it every ten minutes you notice it's [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] moved a little. [John:] Yeah. So air resistance is er is the big one. Once you get up to speed that's, you're, it's like running through, have you tried running through water? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, it's like that. Erm and your tyres, as you said the resistance ro and lots of resistance in all the, the bearings. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] All the moving parts, I mean your wheel hubs get hot. Yeah. Erm your brakes every, what, what happens when you brake? [Andrew:] It's friction, brake pads squeeze the brake disk or [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] brakes pads push out on the brake drum. [John:] Mm. And what happens to the drum? [Andrew:] Gets hot. [John:] Right. If you've just come down a hill [LAUGHTER] with your brakes on, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] touch those and burn your hand. So you got all this energy, this kinetic energy, when you're going downhill. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You don't want it [LAUGHTER] you've got to get rid of it somewhere so you turn it to heat, and there's, every time you, whenever you're braking... you're turning some of your kinetic into heat.... So there are lots of erm this is something that you know quite a bit about. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] It's just looking at it in a slightly different way and trying, I've done some things there to show you a, a sort of a system to use, use your own if you like but I want to see what comes in, what goes out, every time energy changes from one form into another form. And I mean think of say rolling back in traffic if you're waiting on a hill. If you take your handbrake off and you're not quite ready to move off, what happens? Your potential energy starts changing into kinetic and you roll back. So as many examples as you can think of, of driving, where energy changes from one sort to another er where your energy is going, what's using it up, where it's coming from. Erm [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] because they do, I mean they're not, they're not going to ask you that as a question. could do, I mean if I was setting the exam I probably would, sort of, you know people know roughly about, I mean they're all going to drive cars one car. so... I think you could almost enjoy doing a little diagram like that, couldn't you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And you'll keep thinking of extra little bits he ah there's another bit can go in there. So your diagram will get very messy, it doesn't have to all fit together, as long as you can get all the main points of what's happening. Erm have you heard of a fellow called Newton and his three laws? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Are you remembering them? [Andrew:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Hmm. Erm you know them? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You know his laws in parc you know sort of in practice, but we'll, we'll sit here and watch that pen until it suddenly jumps off the table. It's not going to. [LAUGHTER] It's, it's not going to, it's just, it'll just stay there. Why? Why does, why is this book just [banging table] sitting on the table not going anywhere? [Andrew:] Er cos that's stopping it. [John:] Yeah, the table's stopping, yeah. It's the normal state of things, just sitting there doing nothing. Erm [Andrew:] Right. [John:] that's his first law. That if something suddenly, you know [banging table] jumps up. [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Something's done something to it, it didn't just [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] suddenly decide to jump up. If nothi if you, you don't have an external force acting on something it just to remain stationary or, or carry on in a straight line and fixed speed, if. Erm and the second law... you've heard of force equals mass times acceleration? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] now okay, explain it to me in terms of, try and ex say if you were explaining it to someone who sort of wasn't very technical. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Erm [Andrew:] Force erm [whispering] is equal to mass times acceleration []. Erm force is some, is the power at which, with which something possesses so if something, if you drop a pen on hand [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] ... when it hits you what you're feeling is the force of [John:] Right. [Andrew:] the pen falling. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] If you drop say that heavy ornament on top. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] What hits you is the force of it, moving. [John:] Right. So that's a a short sharp force. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. They're quite awkward to deal with. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm can you think of any steady forces? [Andrew:] Er say I place it on my hand. [John:] Right. now here, it's [Andrew:] pushing down me. [John:] pushing down. And Newton's third law says, that your hand must be pushing up on it. With exact just enough to balance its weight. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Cos otherwise it's be going down. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, so if you turned your hand over the other way. And then lift it up a bit off the table. Now if you try not to hold it quite so mu so much it'll push you down a bit. If you're lifting it up too much it goes up. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So make it go, you push upwards with a [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] force that's more than its weight. To let it come down, you push upwards but not enough force to hold up its weight. So it's coming down a bit. So his three laws, first one is everything just sits there doing nothing unless there's some good reason, basically. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] The hard part of that is something going in a straight line, and the same speed has no force, no resultant forces acting on it. Erm if you think of something, say a puck on ice. Give it a flick it'll go for a long way because there's no, there's very little friction on the ice and erm... the second one is the, the awkward one. Force is mass times acceleration. The third one is the, this book is pushing down on the table and the table is pushing up on the book. And [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the action and reaction are equal. If the table was, I mean we've got to get the. If we get a car engine [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and put it on the edge of the table, what's going to happen? The table can't push up [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] with enough force to stop the engine. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So the engine will just sort of push the table down. Erm so the, if you're just sitting there doing nothing, they're balanced. And the middle one, force is mass times acceleration... erm I'm going to give this a push, I'll give this pen a push, accelerate. Going to give the table a push that was as hard as I pushed the pen and [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Well you see give your chair a push. Can you feel that? Hardly feel it, that's as much as I would, this is a very low mass, it's quite small. You know come and, come and give my Mini a push, okay, come and give my camper a push. Mm [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] maybe. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Come and give my bus a push. Or, or [Andrew:] Get lost [LAUGHTER] [John:] my [LAUGHTER] yeah [] or my petrol tanker, full. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] No, [Andrew:] No. [John:] I don't think so. Right so, someone on a bike, you've got a mate on a pushbike and you're starting a race and you give him a shove. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] It really helps, it's, you know, a massive [Andrew:] starts him. [John:] Gets him going. But erm somebody in a tank, give us a push. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] no thanks, it's. Because the mass is so high the same force will have very little effect on. If the mass is very very low, you get a very light little ping pong ball, give it a flick. It'll really go. You want to try and flick that, [grunts] see if I can knock that little, one of those brass pigs, flick it and see if I knock it across the table, I'll take my own finger off, the pig'll hardly move. So that's a sort, some understanding of mass times acceleration. The force is mass times acceleration.... Erm can you think of any applications of that? [Andrew:] Erm mass times acceleration. Erm yeah, when er... rather than saying that something is a heavy mass and it move and it's got a good acceleration you can just say it's got good. No I can't think of anything. [sigh] [John:] Think if you put erm a go-kart engine [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] in a petrol tanker. [Andrew:] It wouldn't get anywhere. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm it produces a certain amount of, it can produce a maximum of torque, a certain amount of force a go-kart engine. It's enough, a light go-kart and a, a person on it [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] it'll zip about. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] If you try to make that drag petrol tanker about, if you've got a suitable gearbox [Andrew:] Yeah, [John:] So your engine's doing about four thousand revs and it's geared down like mad and your tanker is just creeping so you can hardly see [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the w the wheels move, yeah it could, you could move it. If it [Andrew:] Yeah. Take a long time. [John:] if it didn't lose a, you know, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] a lot of friction in the gearbox and things like that. But you could get that tanker gradually creeping along and moving. The same force... when it's applied to... l look at this another way, what's the acceleration? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] F equals M A. Divide both sides by... M so the acceleration, this is a bit like our Ohm's Law thing, let's keep the mass the same, we're dealing with say a Mini, we're not going to change that. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm we give it a bigger force, what happens to the acceleration? [Andrew:] Erm it goes up. [John:] Bigger force, bigger acceleration. Well that's [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] good, that ties in with, you know, what we know actually happens in real life. Now let's keep the force the same, say we've got a Mini engine providing us, just running it steady at three thousand R P M. Pushing out the same amount of force, keep the force the same, this time we put a smaller mass, we've got a Mini engine and you've put it on your pushbike. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Neeow, we'll get a much, what will be the acceleration, will it be bigger or smaller, get more acceleration or less? [Andrew:] Erm more. [John:] Yeah. So because the mass is smaller we get more acceleration. Now if we make the mass bigger, put the same engine in a tanker, acceleration would be very small. So it's sometime useful to think of it that way round, Newton's third law, rather than force is mass times acceleration, you're interested in the effect, now what did we get for this, what sort of acceleration do we get. What, we want big acceleration and we put a big force. Also if we want big acceleration we use a small mass. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Bigger the acceleration that you're very very light object. or something like that. Erm Newton's three laws come up erm and particularly that one, you questions [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] on that. Erm so his first one is about equilibrium.... no resultant force, no net force, all forces balance. All forces are balanced. Right. All forces are balanced and, so no net force. You can have forces but they all balance out. And it will, either be at rest or in a straight line. And a steady speed. That's the bit that people fe find a bit hard to er to accept because in the real world it doesn't actually happen because there's always some other force like air resistance, friction, road resistance from your tyres and, and it grad it always stops eventually. But if it's in space, you're in a spaceship and then you throw your pen out through the window. airlock [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] preferably. It just keeps going, there's nothing else [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] It's away from all the other planets and things, it'll just keep moving. Er steady speed, straight line. [yawn] And that's, those three laws, that's what the whole of dynamics is built on. The whole of the study of sort of moving things and statics, things like ladders leaning up against a wall, it's okay, it's interesting.... [LAUGHTER]... What would happen there? Just lean a ladder against a wall and start walking up it. [Andrew:] Er [John:] Why doesn why doesn't it slide straight away? When you le when you leave the ladder up wall? [Andrew:] Because your force isn't worth as much when you're there. When you're there it's erm it's liking more like a. [John:] [whispering] more like a []. What's stopping the bottom of the ladder from. Which way is it acting? [Andrew:] The force is pushing that that way, that way. So [John:] What do you mean by the force? [Andrew:] The mass [John:] Okay. Right. [Andrew:] is [John:] Right. So what way is the frictional force acting on the bottom of the ladder? [Andrew:] It's acting on the floor, on the base of the ladder. Stopping it getting pushed. [John:] So which direction [Andrew:] That way. [John:] is it? [Andrew:] That way. [John:] Is it? [Andrew:] Oh the frictional force, that way. [John:] Right, yeah, that's very common. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Marking the forces on going that way, the easy way to think of it is well what have you got to do to the bottom of the ladder to stop it from, put a piece of rope on here, right? Put a piece of rope and, and stand on the end of it and pull. And I've got to pull the of ladder in. So there must be a frictional force here, pulling the bottom of the ladder in. What's the top of the ladder trying to do?... It's trying to slide down the wall, so there must be something pulling it up the wall, frictional force [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] If you put the bottom on wheel, put some wheels on the bottom of the ladder so it couldn't fall because of the bottom, then it would still stay there because on the floor would be the bit of grip from the top. Not nearly [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] as good as the frictional force you get on the bottom. But you do get some from the top. And if I take the book away, and so the pen is trying to push the book over. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And the book is pushing back and the pen pushing on each other, so pushing out that way. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And it's, this is what the wall's doing, it's the normal reaction frictional force, keeping the, holding the ladder up, stopping it from sliding down. There's a frictional force... There's a different reaction. A vertical reaction, and the horizontal. Okay? These are interesting if you're building bridges, but when it gets really interesting is when things start moving. When things start moving, F equals M A crops up all over the place. And it's very important so they always ask questions about it. The understanding of it is that. Acceleration, increase your force, what happens to acceleration? [Andrew:] Erm goes up. [John:] Increase the mass, but keep your force the same, what happens to acceleration? [Andrew:] [yawning] Goes down []. [John:] So mass if you like, is a bit like the way resistance was in the electric. Yeah? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] If you increase it erm then it's, it's slowly go bogs everything down if you like increase the resistance, you bog everything down. So mass is a sort of a bit like resistance, it's resistance to acceleration. Erm this piece of paper hasn't got much ac resistance to acceleration. [hits paper] [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You can accelerate it very easily. Er this house has got tremendous resistance to acceleration. If I run [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] at it and oh give it a good shove, I'm not [LAUGHTER] gonna [] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I mean okay the brick might move a tiny bit. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But I'm not going to suddenly send this off into orbit, with a small [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] force. So that's how that works. Erm I'm trying to tie things together a bit as you noticed, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] at the moment so that you can [Andrew:] Relating [John:] you're not feeling that you've got lots of little isolated subjects and lots of little isolated topics and it's all building up and it's all a lot [phone rings] it is a lot, [Andrew:] Can I just answer the phone? [John:] it is a lot, but they're all part of the same thing. [Andrew:] Yeah. [phone answered] [phone conversation] [John:] So how are you, how are you getting on with your revision? [Andrew:] Erm to be honest the revision getting a bit neglected it's, we've done most of our coursework, in most subjects there's coursework which in some subjects which has to be, not, doesn't have to be done before the exam but it's preparation, preparation work for the exams. There's art coursework, there's a big economics project, [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] there and there's C D T because for C D T you have to do four sheets which you take into the exam. And you use the information off that. So [John:] You will have some projects that can keep but [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] if you do them before the exam the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] stuff that you learn for them is even better then the revision [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] it comes in and it's very, it's very useful. Erm [Andrew:] Or to do the projects you're looking up things. [John:] Right. What projects, have you got any science projects that're not finished? [Andrew:] No science [John:] They're all, all in. [Andrew:] The good thing about the science was it was all in school, practical work. [John:] Write up. [Andrew:] Mostly. [John:] All your experiments are written up and [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] handed in? Erm what about your maths, have you got any outstanding projects there? [Andrew:] No. [John:] They're all in and done? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That's good. [Andrew:] English as well, it's, really it's just the [John:] Oh that's good. So you're really [Andrew:] Yeah, it's [John:] I mean you've co I mean a long, you know not that long ago, you were sort of tending to put it off a lot. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm you've got you've got to [Andrew:] It's just the, the economic, art and the C D T which, it's not my fault it's just everybody's in the same position, it's the, the teachers have tended to say, well you're not ready to do it yet or, we've just got to finish the rest of this book. By the time we've finished the book, bang we're on top of the Easter holidays. [John:] Okay so get, yeah get, get those projects in. Erm I would, I think it would be very useful if you could make time in the next day or so, you don't have to spend long on this you know, if you just spent sort of [Andrew:] Yeah, it's just looking at it. [John:] spent half an hour maximum, maybe twenty minutes would be, all it would take you just to do that one problem, while it's reasonably fresh in your mind. Then you can forget it and the next time you come to do it, maybe in a month's time or er you've I remember now, the water pipes, don't give it resistance, think of conductance, think of one over, think of conductance. This pipe conducts so, so many gallons, that so many gallons. Conductance one equals conductance plus conductance three plus conductance four mm and so on. And then wherever you've got rid of conductance think well they haven't given me that, they've given me resistance, oh I had to write one over resistance turning it into conductance. Erm it's a big course, science, but a lot of it and erm quite a, I mean the chemistry alone or the physics alone [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] or the, even the [Andrew:] I think somebody said it's mad the way they try and [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] I think, yeah, it was my dad said, that the way they try to do combined science it's like doing a combined maths and English paper. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] They're all so different. It's [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] madness. [John:] It er I don't think a lot of the curriculum at the moment and erm you, you ask most teachers and they just say, grrr, forget that [LAUGHTER] you know []? [Andrew:] I think what he should have done Ooh you've got to take two sciences, you pick which two sciences you're going to take, it'd be easier for the teachers and he would, well to do all three sciences in one exam is [John:] It's erm, it's a mess really the way [Andrew:] I mean you might as well be doing art, physics and chemistry, than biology, physics and chemistry. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] I think it's [John:] I mean there is some overlap between biology [Andrew:] I mean if anything, the physics should go in with the maths exam, rather than chemistry and biology. [John:] Big overlap on, especially on stuff like this about the dynamics erm don't forget that sort of first sheet I gave you a long time ago about [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm so many people throw marks away because they don't put thing down things that are obvious. What's, tell me what are the properties of hydrogen? [Andrew:] Er it's a gas. [John:] Right, [Andrew:] Er it's flammable. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Er it's got one, it's [John:] Right okay, good. [Andrew:] one [John:] One electron. Yeah, you're getting now into the deep chemical [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] properties of it. Good, excellent that you know them. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But [Andrew:] It's a gas. [John:] go for the really obvious physical properties first, and if you have a little checklist that you go through, bang bang bang for each one, [Andrew:] Doesn't smell and you can't see it. [John:] Right, right. Now the especially if it is colourless or if it hasn't got a smell, you think ooh I'm not putting that down. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right.. What's hydrogen? It's a gas. What colour is it? I don't know, I think it's colourless, well no good putting that down. If it was yellow with sort of pink spots, that'd be worth putting down. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So, so many people leave it out. And you know losing marks when you describe properties. If you don't know the chemical properties, you you might think oh I, zinc carbonate, describe zinc carbonate. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Have a go. [Andrew:] Oh zinc carbonate. It's a powder. [John:] Right, okay, it's going to be a solid, probably a powder. [Andrew:] You get erm [whispering] [] doesn't burn. [John:] Probably doesn't burn. Right. [Andrew:] Erm soluble in water, er [John:] May or may not be soluble. [Andrew:] Don't think it would smell. [John:] Probably does not smell.... And then you get on to the chemical properties of it. What happens with all carbonates? What the property of all carbonates?... Say I've got some powder there that. Look at this, zinc carbonate, or zinc sulphate. I'd like you to just do a quick chemical test and let me know if that was a carbonate. [Andrew:] Erm. Oh I can't remember. [John:] You've got some acid handy, some H C [Andrew:] Oh. [John:] L. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Oh []. I can't erm er when you mix it with the acid, er... it produces a water, no that's er hydrogen and oxygen. [John:] Go, yeah. They all produce water and salt. [Andrew:] And salt. [John:] A carbonate produces something else as well. [Andrew:] Erm hydrogen, a gas, er car carbon dioxide. [John:] Right. And [Andrew:] And that makes lime water which [John:] Right, okay. This is where we had some sort of car this is just looking at hardness of water actually, but this is, you've got the C O three [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] in there and that's where we're going to get our C O two from, leaving the O. Who cares what happens to that, you get, you know, a different looking powder left. Well we'll get carbon dioxide off, so you might be iridium carbonate or ytterbium, we've got a powder which may be ytterbium car carbonate or ytterbium sulphate and you never heard of this stuff, ah carbonate carbonate and maybe, maybe ytterbium carbonate doesn't give off carbon dioxide with acid, but there is a very good chance it does cos all the others you've ever heard about do. So just go for that I mean you see you're looking for the pattern, you can't know ninety odd elements and what the carbonate of every one does, what the sulphate of every one, what the nitrate of each one, bicarbonate, hydrogen carbonate of each one. You can't learn all that lot. You just learn general patterns. Maybe if there are a few very obvious exceptions, you learns those as well. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm you know pi stuff in your head full of more and more facts and more and more equations and more and more you know Hooke's Law and Ohm's Law, Avogadro's everybody else [Andrew:] Every little [John:] had a law and a name and a theory. [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm so you just stick them together. So that's something that only you can do really, that you, gather up the information, it's like, it's like having all your information in say a room this size. And it's chucked in bits of pa on bits, different scraps of paper and it's all on the floor. about finished has it? Chucked all over the place. Right? And want to find something you've got to root through everything else, you've got to move everything else and then when you want to come and find something else, you've moved it. [Andrew:] Something else, you can't. Yeah. [John:] So you've got a lot of stuff up in your head, you might, oh you've got a terrible r memory, you can't remember anything, think of it, the thing is you can remember phone numbers and people's names, how to get to school, [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] erm people you've met, faces and voices you can recognize. stuff up in your head. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] It needs organizing occasionally, maybe in the holiday is a good time to try and do it. While you're doing your projects, sort of practise organizing your files for your projects and don't l don't, I think you can spend, you're good at finding excuses for yourself, I do the same thing. I'm [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] not, I'm not now, I've got over it. But in a stage of my life I used to do the same thing a lot. I'll do my sort of chemistry revision tomorrow, right well I'll sort all this out into these files, I'm going to put all my acids together in that one. [Andrew:] And by the time you've done that [John:] Oh well it's too late now, right well [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I'll do it tomorrow. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] But at least I got this file sorted out. Erm don't get into that. you know I to that. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Well you know the dangers probably better than I do but er you need a, you need a good bit of organization but much time is getting, getting the. So your, your other subjects going okay? Economics [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and C D T and [Andrew:] I've got [John:] your maths is good now isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah that's [John:] So it's just your science that you are thinking ooh and they are a lot of [Andrew:] I'm not really worried about it to be honest I'm not worried about any of them, I thought I would actually be erm I'm actually, we're under a lot of pressure at the moment but I'm not actually, usually when I'm like that it's all gone I tend to say well forget about it and you know run away from it kind of thing, [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] when you're under pressure, but I'm not I'm just, I'm just doing it in my stride and and taking it as it, as it comes. [John:] Good. If you've got, you know, if you've got too much pressure [Andrew:] Not worrying about it too much because that'll just make it worse. It does make it worse and if you've got a lot of things that you're supposed to be doing, you just think well I can't do all of them. If I try and do all them. Now pick up the important ones, sort out your priorities. Erm say if you're looking at erm... say if and you think well I know pretty much about alternative sources of power, wind and water and all that stuff. I don't really need to be Just so long Yeah. [John:] as oh that's good, I feel that they're now acid and alkalis, seem to be important, I've done I've put a lot of effort into them, maybe just a quick glance at those occasionally to keep up to date. Use your, use your time, use your energy, so it's going to get you know. But erm what are, what are you hoping to do after your exams? [Andrew:] Er... try and relax and wait for them. I don't know erm [John:] Depends on what you get? [Andrew:] Yeah. Erm I've started writing off, we've drafted a letter to write off to different colleges and sort of I'll write off before I do my exams. [John:] Right. Cos the answers, when they come back, are going to be, things like, depends on what you get in your exams and it's very, it's very bad stage in your life, it's er going to affect, but I mean the weather's going to get nice, and it you know, it's going to be great. Everyone will be tempted to go out. If you work now, not you know, not killing yourself but if you can put in a certain amount of work now and go without watching telly, sitting round, listening [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] to music, going out with your mates. Erm just to get

[speaker001:] Can we start off with your name? It's William isn't it? [William:] William aye. [speaker001:] And you're a retired farmer? [William:] I'm no ret well aye, yes. [speaker001:] How old are you Mr? [William:] Seventy two. [speaker001:] Seventy two. And this is an uplands farm? [William:] No this is. [speaker001:] Aha, but it's upland? [William:] Oh well, more or less. [speaker001:] And have you stayed er in all your days? [William:] All my days. [speaker001:] When did you first encounter tinkers? [William:] Oh I'd... oh... I'd be about three year old. They, you see to, they used to have a, they used to camp at the very top of the hill up there. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And, and they used to draw in there. [speaker001:] Were they in tents? [William:] No, caravans. [speaker001:] Caravans. [William:] Horse. [speaker001:] With a horse? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] What year would this be [William:] Oh it would be just, just about the start of the First World War. [speaker001:] Aye, and what were their names? [William:] Well, there used to be a lot come up from Kendal. [speaker001:] Aha, down in Cumbria. [William:] Aye, there was er a Billy, a Harry, and er... there was another lot come, I c I just can't remember their name but after the First World War this Billy used to come round this part and collect cast horses. You know, buy cast horses. And he used to walk them all the way, I remember once him starting out er from what we call Hole, that's at the top of the hill there, er starting out to walk them to Newcastle, and he took eleven. It er er he pleated the he the halter... into the tail of the leading horse and he took them down the road in a string like a train. [LAUGHTER] And I remember him once leaving up there with eleven. [speaker001:] Was that one of the main reasons that they started coming here for the horses? [William:] Well no no they came here before that. You see they used to come around... and they... they, they er the Kendal ones used to sell baskets and basket chairs and, and a lot of kind of er stuff made with and then [speaker001:] That they made themselves? [William:] That's right. And then there was another lot came. They were tinsmiths. [speaker001:] And who were they? [William:] [sigh] Now wait a minute.... Er [speaker001:] Were they Scottish at all most of them? [William:] Aye. Aye they, they belonged to about I think they came from. [speaker001:] They wouldn't be Paul? [William:] Oh they, now they could've been. And they used to make what they called chappens That was, that was a, a tin jug. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] That er [speaker001:] And they called them chappens [William:] Aye, they used to er kind of chapping tin. [speaker001:] Aha,. [William:] And, and er and then there was [speaker001:] [sneeze] [William:] there was other ones made clothes pegs and... and er well... they all, they all had a kind of trade. [speaker001:] Aha, but you know they weren't begging, they all did something? [William:] Oh no no no no, far from it. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] I remember once, they used to be at 's. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And I remember once old used to gather sacks, ken bags and, and he went to, and I remember one night he come, he'd been round the country hawking and he come home. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And er, wife had er, what they call the cheety boxes. You ken what they are? [speaker001:] No. [William:] Well cheet cheety boxes are... three s bits of iron, with a chain in the middle that hung over a fire... you see? [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And of course she had the pan on [speaker001:] Right. [William:] when old come home and he just, the old wifey broke the eggs into the pan and threw them onto the plate for [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] and he just halved them [speaker001:] Did he stay in a caravan? [William:] until he, he ate a whole dozen eggs. [speaker001:] In one go? [William:] [LAUGHTER] Aye. [speaker001:] Could you describe er the, the tinsmiths? What, what were they like?... To look at? [William:] There, there was one deaf and dumb [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and... well... they used to make, and they made these they made kind of lots of tin things you know like different sizes and... I cannae just describe what they, there was one had big whiskers down his face but er the rest was clean shaven, you ken. [speaker001:] And these, you think they came from, the. [William:] I think they came from. [speaker001:] And did they camp up the hill as well? [William:] Up there, they all camped up, I'll tell you I've seen sixty [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] there on a Sunday. [speaker001:] Caravans? [William:] No no, individuals, oh there might have been five or six or maybe eight caravans. [speaker001:] Were there any with tents? [William:] No, not then, they all had cara well they used to have wee things they could stick on a... a cart, a kind of bow shaped thing. [speaker001:] Aha, [William:] And you ken they used to lift it off and put it in the ground. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] But er... oh they, they used to be,, er and... [whispering] what do you call the other ones that come []? [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] Er... now just let me think., there was another lot came from.... [speaker001:] From? [William:] Aye.... There's still some of these live in. [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] And in fact there's one that, a daughter of one, lives up way somewhere. [speaker001:] Did any of them have tents like that one? [William:] This one? [speaker001:] Have you ever seen tents like that round about here? [William:] Well I'm telling you they stuck it they had a sort of flat bottomed cart and they used to stick it in and when they came there they, they lifted it off and stuck it in the ground and it was just similar to that only it was hooped [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] like that. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Mm.... [William:] But of, of course the motor car... all, all I'm describing what it was like in the horse days. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And th this, this er Harry, he, he came from the area, er he always, he was a great basket maker [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and he made baskets and, and these kind of basket chairs and [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] stuff like that, and they used to make them through the winter and come up here in the summer and sell them. [speaker001:] Was it onl only the summer that they [William:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] the tinkers came? [William:] Aye, they only came in the su they only came up here in the summer. [speaker001:] Yeah, and how long did they stay for, the whole summer? [William:] Oh they've, I've seen them staying maybe three month. [speaker001:] And they were always friendly? [William:] Oh yes very friendly, no bother. No bother at all, except [speaker001:] What [William:] except there was one, er that fell out with my father once erm Jackie. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] That's the only one that ever I remembered but they were all, and they you know they, they used to graze their horses up there in that field up at the top, and this Billy that used to go round all the district and, and buy up all these old cast horses and bring them up there until he had a consignment gathered up. And they used to go to Belgium, they, they er walked them through to get a boat at Newcastle and they used to got to Belgium for [speaker001:] To sell the horses? [William:] horse meat. [speaker001:] Mhm, oh I see, he sold them and them they were shipped across. [William:] Aye, shipped across, he, I don't know whether he... Billy they called him, he, he, he wasn't very tall, but ooh he was a wiry character, could walk, walk a hundred miles in a day [LAUGHTER] almost []. [speaker001:] Did they ever go for wool from the sheep? [William:] Oh yes, oh there, aye there was, ah but these this lot that I'm telling you about they were more or less traders. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] But they used to get the, the, the odd ones that used to come and gather s what we call hiplocks again that was the dirty wool off the sheath pin, sounds like that. [speaker001:] And they would wash it, and then sell it? [William:] Aye, that's right. And then they used to get, they used to be in... Jackie, he always gathered bags and [speaker001:] What type of bags? [William:] Oh any type of bag. And he used to wash them all, and, and er you know the manure fertilizer came in jute bags then [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and er he used to, he had a contract with some big potato firm and he used to buy all the, the fertilizer bags in the locality and he used to bring them there to the end of the road and he used to wash them in the burn. And he, he got a good price for them with them being washed for to put potatoes in.... He, he went to America, in fact his widow was over... it'll be about two years ago and she came and seen us, and she remembered er me as, as a, she was eighty six. I think it's eighty six, and er she remembered me as a, as a, as a little boy when Jackie used to wash his bags down here. She remembered me coming down to the burn and tramping the bags in the [LAUGHTER] the [], help to wash them. [speaker001:] Could you pass over the book again please?... At the back it's got er you know a glossary of. [William:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] Have you heard any of these words being used for the side of things by the, the tinkers? [William:] Dickety gadgy [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] [LAUGHTER] Aye, I've heard that. [speaker001:] It's just that some of these words say they, they might have used them, I mean I've done the and the ones but I've never come upon anyone that's heard of the, the cant. [William:] Er [speaker001:] And maybe the way they said it.... [William:] Aye gr well I've heard of the, a guffy that's what they used call ham. [speaker001:] Guffy [William:] Ah bit of, I've had a bit of guffy [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What like, they call, the ones call a, a pig a grumfy [William:] A grumfy aye, well they call it a [LAUGHTER] guffy here [] er... you see, you see this apron [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] well, they used to call it a dadely [speaker001:] Did they? [William:] Aye.... Ah the professor here's from... er the Newfoundland University studied all the dialects in Great Britain. [speaker001:] Did they? [William:] And they discovered that the most expressive dialect in Britain was in Galloway. And they sent [speaker001:] That's right. [William:] and they sent a, a professor over here to study it. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And he was here. [speaker001:] When, the, the true Gallo Galloway er way of speaking, [William:] That's correct. [speaker001:] I mean they have words that strudes [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] are very old shoes apparently. [William:] Aye, aye. It was, we call them squarks [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Squarks Aye. [William:] No but, erm he, he says to me he says, have you any expressions that you, you think's very expressive? And I says, yes, I says, I've dozens of them. And er he says, what is it? I says, well, I says, I was reading a book and an old wifey that lived up at and she was about ninety six, and this chap that was interviewing her, well he wouldn't be interviewing her but he said she sat by the fire and she hostied and clochered until she nearly spewed. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's marvellous. [William:] [LAUGHTER] And er of course another [] a another er expression was the wee boch'll come helshing down the street. [speaker001:] You, helshing what was the [William:] Well kind of with a limp. [speaker001:] Oh right aye. Aye. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Shanners Shanners have you heard that meaning bad? [William:] No. No. [speaker001:] Shan gadgy [William:] Aye,sh, aye well I, I'd s I'd say to you there to start with dickerty gadgy do you ken what that means? [speaker001:] Erm [William:] That was that was tinker language again. [speaker001:] Erm the gadgy's man. [William:] That's right. [speaker001:] Dickert look at. [William:] Look at, aye that's correct, look at the, look at the man. And, and a, there used to be an old fisher wife, old Mary. She come here, she used to come here with her man, you ken they were tramps, but er she, she was a great one, she used to, she belonged to the West Highlands, and she was a great one for quoting the, the kind of [speaker001:] Tinker [William:] tinker. [speaker001:] Yeah. [William:] But to be quite truthful as I've said to the boys, when I'm away all this is lost. What I, what I li what I, what I knew about tinkers and, and that, cos there's nobody, there's nobody has any experience of what it was like. There's very few folk left that can remember the, who the tinkers used to come up there and [speaker001:] it won't be lost now. [William:] Oh well I hope not. [speaker001:] Because all my tapes go into the archives of the Department of Scottish Studies at [William:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] Edinburgh University, they'll take copies of them and keep them there for ever as a sort of reference museum. [William:] I've got it, aye. [speaker001:] So you're, you're on there. [William:] Er you see when I was, this would just be at the start of the First World War, oh damn I haven't put a switch in have I? [speaker001:] No it's alright. [William:] And er I remember they use to bring cocks with them and have cock fights. [speaker001:] I've heard about a cockatoo but you're talking about the hens cockerels. [William:] Ah no no, domestic a dom domestic bird, what they call game, fighting game. And I remember when I was a nipper, er er being up there and they had, they always had a box in the back of their caravan where they kept two or three hens, and, and, and er they used to have this game bird. It was a what they call the fighting game, or something to that effect and er the the I remember once I he seeing them having a cock fight. Oh boy it was great. [speaker001:] Were they putting money on it? [William:] Oh oh now I don't know whether I wasn't to th er... remember whether they gambled on it or not but [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] I remember them once having a, a cock fight. [speaker001:] And this was where, just in the [William:] Just over the, no at the top of the hill. [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] You, you, you come over the hill? [speaker001:] That's right. [William:] Aye. Well you know where the,th there's an old road goes up this way. [speaker001:] Aha, aha. [William:] And over by the quarry. [speaker001:] Yeah. [William:] Well there used to be a house there. [speaker001:] Aha, and it's muddy, there's no signposts it's just [William:] No no no. That's right, well that's where it, and they drew up that old road, with their caravans you see. [speaker001:] Oh I see.... And they just put them, they just stayed there? [William:] Oh yes, aye.... There used to be a house there. [speaker001:] And where did they go, or did, I mean [William:] Oh they went, they went to the ones they used to go away to and and... Castle. Hawking as we called it, called it. [speaker001:] What about the ones from and? [William:] Ah well th th they, they were more or less gatherers, you ken they gathered hiplocks and [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] er scrap and stuff like that. [speaker001:] And sold them? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Where would they sell scraps er round about here? [William:] Well they used to se they used to take it to a, a man called in. [speaker001:] Mhm,? [William:] Aye.... That's where they used to, they bought fallen skins and [speaker001:] Off rabbits? [William:] Oh any kind of skins they bought. [speaker001:] Of what, what did they do with hem? [William:] Oh well th they, they seemingly sent them away by rail somewhere. Rabbit skins and stoat skins and [speaker001:] Stoat skins? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] This is about nineteen eighteen? [William:] Yeah, aye, just after the First World War. Aye. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And that's when, you see... during... I can just remember previous to the war them coming there and then of course during the war there was very very few of them on the road then and then after the war they started to come back and that's when this Billy and Harry and that came up from the side. [speaker001:] After the end of the First World War and when the motor car came in did they still come along on horses? [William:] Oh yes, aye for a year or two but then you see they all got into kind of motor cars [speaker001:] What, when would have that, can you remember [William:] Oh that would be about the nineteen thirties. [speaker001:] And they had cars at that time? [William:] Aye. Beginning of the nineteen thirties. [speaker001:] Cos at that time only sort of wealthy people might have had cars, is that [William:] Oh still, I remember that Jackie, er he bought an old car in and er for scrap like, and he brought it up and he broke it up up there and it was a and it was made in, this car. And I remember this Jackie, and it, it had a most peculiar starting mechanism ever I've seen. [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] There was like a prawl in the flywheel, and you pulled a lever like that and it, there wasn't a connection on to the, like on to the crankshaft with a starting handle, this thing was on the flywheel and it was like a lever [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] and it, and it pulled it over and cranked it. It's only time ever I've seen that. [speaker001:] Amazing.... What were some of the, the tales you were gonna tell me about what you'd heard? [William:] Oh well as I er, as I was saying about th this aunt that stayed with me, er she once er saw a, well I don't know whether she actually seen it or not, but she'd seen the results of it, of a tinker's divorce, and this man killed this horse and threw his wife on top of it and that was him divorced. [speaker001:] did he shoot the horse? [William:] No I think he cut its throat. No I couldn't tell you much about it. [speaker001:] aha, this was your aunt? [William:] An old aunt that stayed with me. [speaker001:] And you were a young lad when she told you this? [William:] Oh aye, oh aye, oh she'd er she'd er told this she told this. [speaker001:] What was her name? Her first name? [William:] Sarah. [speaker001:] Sarah? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Did she stay up here? [William:] Aye she stayed here. [cough] And, and... well I remember once there were a whi a few of the men went away to and they got over the stick, you understand what that means? Got drunk [LAUGHTER], and they came up and oh what a row.... Up, up there. [LAUGHTER] Aye. It was like a, it was like a Waterloo. And then there was er this they called this one. Er this fellow come up fair blue devil go drinking, er he hadn't a, he hadn't, she hadn't his tea ready and he lifted the kettle and he hit her in the mouth with it and oh boy oh boy she'd a mouth like dixie lid. [LAUGHTER] Ken what a dixie lid is? [speaker001:] No. [William:] [LAUGHTER] You ken your wee dixie's that you for your grub. [speaker001:] Aha. I think, yeah. [William:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and then you eat it. [William:] Aye, that's right, you eat dixie. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And she'd to go to, to get her into the pony and cart and get her away to to the doctor's and get it stitched and, oh boy.... There you saw, [speaker001:] And that that wasn't regular, I mean they weren't fighting? [William:] On no no no, no no, oh no, oh they were very, very very, docile you ken, never interfered with nobody or nothing and the funny thing, you know they all get blamed for poaching and that, but that was one thing... they may, may poach but never here. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] If they wanted to poach they went away somewhere else. [speaker003:] Excuse me but did? [William:] No they never poached locally, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] if they wanted to poach they went away. [speaker001:] When, when did they stop coming here? [William:] Ah well the motor car did away with it. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Away with it. All that's, you see there's, there's a few comes at the, even at the present moment, there's some come down from every year. [speaker001:] What are they called? [William:] . [speaker001:] And they still come down with a van [William:] Yes. [speaker001:] to that same site? [William:] No no they come down into the corner of the field here in Place. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And they stay there. [speaker001:] And what do they do? [William:] Oh well they paint sheds and [speaker001:] They ask you for work [William:] That's right. [speaker001:] chop wood and [William:] Aye aye. [speaker001:] tar the road or something. [William:] Ah well no they didn't, but they paint and, and th gather scrap and things like that. [speaker001:] So they're still coming? [William:] Oh they still come. [speaker001:] Do these ones that came when you were a lad, did they a a actually do work on the farm? [William:] Ah well, you know when the, they used to come and give a, give a hand. [speaker001:] And they got paid? [William:] Never got paid. Money never conspired between them, between, they just all would come down and give you a hand and that was it. [speaker001:] I suppose they might have got water or something? [William:] Oh well, they got staying on the place and, oh that money never, er was never asked for money for. [speaker001:] Was that, was that your land? [William:] Aye aye, and my father's anyway. [speaker001:] Aha, [William:] Right up to the, right over, well... it used to be... er start two fields off. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And you know where is, no you'll not. [speaker001:] I've got a map, I think,? [William:] It's, aye just get it out and I'll let you see.... Well you see I had here well I, I, this is, this is a fell and this is here. Well I start about here, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and I went right... to there. [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] Go right round about the Loch. You see I used, used to have east and west of,,, [speaker001:] Farm as well? [William:] Aye, Farm, and. [speaker001:] You had all that? [William:] Had all that. [speaker001:] How many acres is that? [William:] Oh about twelve hundred and fifty.... Now of course I, I've given it nearly all away. Ah well I got the bloody fright of my life once. When I was in seeing the... the banker, and he said to me he said, have you, have you a will made? Says I, no. He says, well it was time you were thinking about it. And I says, why? And he says, you know, he says, if [LAUGHTER] you die [] tomorrow, he says, they'll clean the boys out in death duties. [LAUGHTER] So says aye, it's time I was getting something done. So I just, it used to be, you see that it used to be W G and Sons. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] That's when we all got together [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] but then you see I put Wal out on his own, and John out on his own, and, and the. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] So you see I'm only left with the.... But I was gonna tell you about there was one day I was at for money and I'm coming up the road, and here this chap was standing in the road and er... kind of thumbing a lift, so I says to him, I stopped and I often lift people in the road but er after he got into the, I had an old Bradford van at the time, and he said er, I said to him, I says, are you on a hiking holiday? Oh no, he says, er, he says, I'm not on a hiking holiday, he says er, I'm just back from Iceland. He says, I'm an archaeologist. [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] You see, and I says, oh man that's exactly the very man I want to get into contact with. So of course I told him about, you see we, we'd lowered the level of the loch at the, took four feet of it, you see and it revealed this thing in the loch. So everybody was telling me about this so I went away over and had a look at it. And I said, my God, I says, this is something very ancient. And I says, it's an old lake dwelling, and er of course I mentioned it to this chap, just switch it off the now. [speaker001:] The oldest plough in Europe was was found? [William:] The oldest plough in Europe. let me see, ah this is it. [speaker001:] Here it is, right enough. [William:] Aye, this is, this is it. And, and you see... [LAUGHTER] your thanks are due to a Mr William []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ah did you get a mention? The Proceedings of the Society of Antiquities [William:] Antiquities. [speaker001:] nineteen fifty two to fifty three. [William:] That's right. [speaker001:] Page one three four. I'll have a look at that then in er, one of the libraries. [William:] Aye, and er... you see I used to go over, I used to go over on a Sunday, when they came, if you, on the... er well you see as I told you this chap here. [speaker001:] That you picked up? [William:] Aye I picked up, wait a minute. [speaker001:] Right. [William:] Ah here he is. [speaker001:] Mr David. [William:] , Bamburgh College, Cambridge, now that's the chap I lifted [speaker001:] When you were [William:] for a lift, giving a lift on the road. He was going to, he was going to Ireland, to some excavations there. [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] and er I picked him, I picked him up in the road and you see I just told him, I says oh I says, you're the very man I'm, I'm looking for. [speaker001:] He's the last person you'd be thinking you'd be picking up. [cough] [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Excuse me. [William:] And he, and he [speaker001:] [cough] [William:] and of course he was fair amazed. [speaker001:] Oh he must have been. [William:] And he says, oh, he says, you know it, it, you see we had some old boards that we... took out and could walk across onto it. And er, he says er, he, he, he got a a got him across onto it, and he never spoke, and he walked round about it about three or four times and he s turned around to me and says, well, well, well. He says, here's something, he says, we, we've been looking for for years and here's me stumbling on it accidentally. He says, I'll have to let Professor know. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Well that was on a Tuesday... I believe the letter's on the desk there. And er I had a letter back on the Friday from Stuart to say er according to Mr 's description it was very interesting and could I possibly meet him at Station on the Saturday morning. So of course I went away down to the Station and the folk came off the Edinburgh train and that, and this gentleman and lady were left and of course I approached them, I says, by any chance, I says, are you Professor. He says, oh yes, you'll be Mr. I says, I am. And er he says er he says, you know I'll have to get somewhere to stay, is there anywhere where I could stay? Oh, says I, aye, I says, you could stay in the village. I says, they have a hotel there, so I brought them up to the hotel and took them, he went in and he made arrangements to stay there and then I took them over and let them see this lake dwell this crannagh as they call it.... And then they sent their students down from Edinburgh University [speaker001:] To [William:] to excavate it. No they were there for... oh... maybe eight or ten weekends, excavating. [speaker001:] Where did they stay? [William:] Well some of them stayed in, and this book's got the... a bit of the... worse for the wear... aye here it is you see. Of course this was all photographed at the time, and they found the oldest plough in Europe.

[speaker001:] There's a photo on the Galloway News. [William:] De yes aye. [speaker001:] He's mentioning the, the gypsies. [cough] [William:] No hi hi his... his story is more connected with farming. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] You know what it was like in the nineteen thirties. [speaker001:] Mhm. These are all Galloway words in his glossary? [William:] Oh probably. [speaker001:] Like have you heard Blashie [William:] Aye, blashie aye we quite oft blashie day. [speaker001:] What, what would you call today with the mist? [William:] Oh well it's oh kind of hoary. [speaker001:] Hoary? [William:] Aye, the, the, as I tell you about the. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] Well they live in Castle now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] The live in. And the live in, and the live in. They've all houses now. [speaker001:] They're all old tinker? [William:] Aye, they're of the tinkery breed. [speaker001:] Mhm. A bus driver I spoke to in told me that the tinkers stayed down from. [William:] That's right, aye. [speaker001:] He told me more, he said it was... at a farm near Park. [William:] Oh aye, aye. [speaker001:] They had a camp there, and then I spoke to another man, called, who was a fisherman at one time [William:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] And he recalls or was it the s same bus conductor, the same bus driver I mean. [William:] was it? [speaker001:] Bob, I think his name is, it might have been, I've got the name somewhere, but he also said they were up at. [William:] Oh that's up here, above Castle. [speaker001:] That's right. They also camped up there. Can you remember any other places round about here that the tinkers camped? [William:] Er... no I really, oh they came,... there was ne you see there, there was a lot come in at what we call up there. [speaker001:] That's er near opposite? [William:] That's right, aye. When, they camped in an old road. [speaker001:] Aha, that I passed. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] This is... quite near on old military road isn't it, well just.... [break in recording] [William:] There was no road that you come down there then. [speaker001:] In the seventeen nineteen ninety nine. [William:] No there was no road, and you know the main road up through, up from to and on to? [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] There was no road there, there then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] The, the road to was what they call the old military road. And all the roads converged in it you see, well you see here, you'll see where it says here road from by to. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] You see there was no road up through then, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] it was just after that that they built it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] You see and that al old aunt that I told you about... she always referred this road through as the new road. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And of course it was the old military road that [speaker001:] Is that the old military road that's [William:] No no no it's away it's over here. [speaker001:] Aha, I see. [William:] This just a, a plan of this [speaker001:] Whereabout are we on it? [William:] here. [speaker001:] Aha.. [William:] Aye.... You see the first church in our parish, was in here. [speaker001:] Aha, in. [William:] And that's why it's called. [speaker001:] I see. [William:] And it was in fifteen... it was built in fifteen... I think about fifteen sixty. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And there, there it is. [speaker001:] That's it on the plan. [William:] Aye. You see and they called it the, the church of Saint Constantine, and it shifted from here and they built one down at the and then they shifted from the to the present site in about seventeen forty. [speaker001:] Mhm... there's a, where I come from in Fife,... in there's a, well it's a part of, there's a school, secondary school, called. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] There seems to be quite a number. [William:] Of course you see... and that's how this place got its name. [speaker001:] And what about the? [William:] Well you see there was another when they built... it, the new, the p the present site there are there too. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And to differentiate between the two they made this a, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] . That means bigger as they, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] just the same as er, again whenever you get a with, that that was supposed to be the bigger of the [speaker001:] Yeah. Is that the right time, twelve o'clock? [William:] Oh it will, that, [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] Oh no it's not twelve o'clock yet,do... that that one's ab that one's about ten minutes slow. [speaker001:] So it's five to twelve? [William:] Eh? Aye. [speaker001:] Aha. It's just for my bus, I get a bus that I think leaves at half twelve, and if I miss it there's not another one that takes me to. [William:] Oh. [speaker001:] So I'm just, I'll walk down, how far is it from here down to the main road along the road? [William:] Oh you have to back the ro the way you come. [speaker001:] Do I? [William:] To get the bus. [speaker001:] What over the hill? [William:] Oh no, no no, just keep to the road. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Oh you walked up, you walked over the hill? [speaker001:] Aye, aye. [William:] What from the cafe? [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] Oh, oh it's not far over, just over down there. Just about four fields. [speaker001:] So I go over, right over [William:] No I, I'd keep to the road. [speaker001:] Go right along the road, [William:] Aye. You can, you can and [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] down and up to the right, up to the left. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] Up over the hill. Oh he, he didn't come over by, oh he did come by the quarry. [speaker001:] No, I just came over fields, I went along and followed a dyke, I turned left at the cafe, and then followed the first I saw going up. [William:] Right up over the hill? [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] Oh aye, and then you come You, you come down through a field with a lot of beasts in it? [speaker001:] No I missed it, there was no beasts in the field I came down. [William:] Oh. [speaker001:] There was a lot of dykes. [William:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Climbing over dykes.... Aye. [William:] Well you'd better have a cup of coffee or. [speaker001:] That'd be great. That's been... [break in recording] A flie hook a flie hook [William:] Aye, you ken what a flie hook is? [speaker001:] Aha, er somebody that's overdressed. [William:] Aye, they're dressed up like a flie hook well a flie hook what you fish with. [speaker001:] Ah I see, right. There's, there's one, something about a dog or something, involves describing somebody like a dog or that's had a bad temper, I forget, there's all sorts of words. [William:] [LAUGHTER] Oh for bad temper, [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] oh there's lots of words. Thran did you ever hear that one? [speaker001:] No I never. [William:] And crabbit [speaker001:] Aha, I've heard that. [William:] Er [speaker001:] What would you, did you have a word for the tinkers? [William:] Well no they were just described as tinkies. [speaker001:] Mhm, thank you. [William:] It's a great bit of machinery. [speaker001:] Aye, I need it, aye. [William:] Oh well, it saves you penning. [speaker001:] That's right. And I can, I can get the pronunciation. [William:] Aye, and it's not only that, you can, you can take that... and you can bring it back [speaker001:] That's right. [William:] play it over again. [speaker001:] Or slow it down. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] You were telling me about your uncle. [William:] Oh well I was going to say, er an Uncle Wal, that's a brother of my father's, he was up here one Sunday and he went up, the tinkers were up at and there was sixty one of them. Did I say sixty one or sixty two, I'm not just sure, but there was sixty odd. [speaker001:] At? [William:] That bit up there. [speaker001:] Hill was it? [William:] Hole [speaker001:] Hole? Hole. [William:] Aye you see I cannot tell you the right story, but when Mary Queen of Scots [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] er... er come away from the Battle of, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] I think it was the Battle of, she came down through here and she stayed the night at House.... And she came on horseback and she came over that road making for, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and then she stayed the night at, and she sailed across from Port Mary, is Port Mary at? [speaker001:] I'm not sure I'll check on. [William:] At Maryport, and no, and sailed over to Maryport, and then she went down to. [speaker001:] But she came along what road? [William:] That old road up there. [speaker001:] Up in the tops? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] That you showed me on the plan? [William:] That's right. [speaker001:] Is it sti is that the road that the tinkers [William:] It's still there. [speaker001:] Is that the same road that the [William:] That's the same road as the tinkers stopped on. [speaker001:] And Mary Queen of Scots at one time [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] have a habit of, of going to places like that to. [William:] Aye, aye. And, and... how it got the name Hole, was there's supposed to be gold buried somewhere up there, but what... quantity or anything about it I cannot tell you. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] But I've often thought about buying a mine detector or what ever you call it, and, but you see there was an old churchyard down here too.... And I've thought about buying a, a me erm a metal detector and going up and going over the where the kirkyard was because when there were was here that was in about sixteen... oh it might have been about sixteen sixty or sixteen eighty. Er... they ploughed up a lead coffin. [speaker001:] At? [William:] No, [speaker001:] No. [William:] up here at, the church of Saint Constantine.... So when there was a lead coffin there you'd think there'd be something else. [speaker001:] That's right. [William:] I know the exact spot where it was. But you can't te no there any... you. [speaker001:] I was gonna ask you, ask you this, what, what did your father say to you about the tinkers? [William:] Oh well he, he no he didn't they just come and went and [speaker001:] Did he like them? [William:] Oh aye, he was very friendly with them. [speaker001:] And how about other folk locally? [William:] Ah well there was a lot of folk resented them. [speaker001:] Why? [William:] Oh well I don't know.... I don't ken why they used to blame my father for allowing them to stay, stay, and... and er, och, you get a lot of animosity. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] Well I'll... you know I remember the time of the... oh I remember it well,... the, the nineteen twenty six strike, oh boy, there was twenty six people slept in that barn in one, one night.... You've no idea the miners and, and people that came out onto the road and had nowhere to go or stay and had nothing. And I'll you something, every one of these people got a bowl of porridge in the morning before they left. [speaker001:] From here? [William:] Aye.... It used to be... [cough] it used to be kind of famous, the for... they all, they all came here. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] I could write a book on tramps. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] Mind you there was some, there was some lads among them. [speaker001:] What were their names, there? [William:] Oh well [speaker001:] Nicknames? [William:] No, oh well some of them was nickname but er [speaker001:] What nicknames can you remember? [William:] Oh well... er Heather Jock [LAUGHTER], I mean, there used to be an old fellow, er Jimmy they called him. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And Jimmy er he was a, served his time for a blacksmith, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and he went away to America. Him and his sister and I think a brother and two or three of them but Jimmy was of the roving type. And er he, of course with him being a blacksmith, he could get a job anywhere in America, he says he could leave a town tonight and land in another town, he says and he could be sure of getting a job with him being a blacksmith. And he, he used to tell us about his travels around America, you know and he, he told us about working in Baltimore in the forty sixth street or something [LAUGHTER], in a forge, they called them forges out there. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And he says there was sixty, he says, he says he's seen a hundred horses standing to get shod on a morning. A hundred horses. [speaker001:] And he did them all? [William:] No no no, och there was about twenty or thirty fires in the place. [speaker001:] aha, I wondered. [LAUGHTER] [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] And [William:] And he went round and I'll tell you what, he worked with a man called Ross.... This Ross, and that's the man that started up Oliver Tractors, of Southbend,In I think it was Southbend, Indiana. He worked with him for a while, making implements. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And then he went on and he landed up in Seattle the time they were going up to the Klondike Gold Rush. [speaker001:] The same [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] man? [William:] And, and er he wondered about whether he should go up to Klondike or not. And he said he'd had a whiskies and he was down by the station and he said he jumped on the train and he landed up in De Detroit, and then the South African War broke out [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] and he left America and he came home and joined up and went to the South Af South African War. And he was out there for about three years, he come back home and of cou just travelled the country, again working on the farms and that. And the nineteen fourteen eighteen war broke out, he joined up again.... And he landed out at the Dardanelles, and here they discovered his age... he was away near, he was fif about fifty six or something or fifty eight or something and he was out there in the Dar and they packed him straight back home but oh boy he could tell you the stories about America. [speaker001:] What other tramps can you remember? [William:] Aye well there was, that was Jimmy, there was Old. He sharpened saws. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] There was Pat, he swept chimleys, er and then there used to be an old fellow come, he used to mend, mend dishes you ken, what you call a china faker. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And i oh boy could he mend them. I used to have a dish here flung out now, that he repaired, and repaired it with staples. He drilled the, he drilled the, the thing away and put kind clasps in. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And there was [cough] did I tell you about Old, he, he sharpened saws. I remember one night he come here and ooh it was a hard hard frost and he was and he slept in the barn, and he went in and he wanted a dram of water to have his drink through the night, and it was hard hard frost, and the water trough for the horses was down here, of course it when he [Sarah:] Would you care for a cup of coffee? [William:] Aye we'll just be there now. [speaker001:] thanks. [William:] Mm. [speaker001:] Thank you that'll be lovely. [Sarah:] Aye, I'll bring it down. [William:] Oh you'll bring it down, that'll be grand. And er of course he went in, he was real regimental, again he'd been an old soldier. And of course he goes in and the horse drops in the far side of the wee barn, and er Old goes in with his dram and he dips it into the horse trough you ken, and he turns you ken with his regimental, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [William:] just gets to the side of the barn when he coming back out and he went into reverse. And he went staggering back and of course the horse trough got him here and he sat down in it. Aye. [speaker001:] Was he going for a water? [William:] Aye for a dram of water for maybe have a drink through the night. [speaker001:] Aha, out of the horse trough? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] And he fell right in it? [William:] And of course the horse trough, it's always running. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] It's not like a s tap or anything, it's overflow for the domestic supply. [cough] Well he came up there and he lay down with th these clothes on. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Never took a thing off. [speaker001:] What time of year was this, summer? [William:] Oh the winter. [speaker001:] Winter? [William:] Aye, hard hard frost. [speaker001:] Oh of course you were telling me, aye. [William:] Another night there used to be one, Old Bob, used to do bit of droving. And he always used to come up from, he lived in and he [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] come up from, had a jug or two at come over here and stay the night and then walk down to in the morning. And there's a time when my father lived at the, and I'm going up the road this night... and I hears this queer kind of grunting, and I couldn't understand it of course it was dark and I hears it again. I says, what on earth's that, I says, there's something in that ditch, and I went back and I looked and here's Old Bob lying on his back in the ditch and the water running round each side of his head. What a job I had getting him pulled out. He was about a tonne weight. [cough] [speaker001:] A fat bloke was he? [William:] Oh no he wasn't t he wasn't too fat Old Bob. Well I gets him pulled out of the ditch and I brings him down and it's the time I, I had Sarah boil up the boiler for the pigs. And er I gets him down and I gets him into the stable, and I gets all the clothes off him and he gets into a bag, a bran bag, more bags and lay down and covered himself, and I hung his clothes round the boiler fire. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] They were dry for him in the morning []. [speaker001:] That's good. [William:] [cough] And then there used to be old Tom and Mary. By God she was a lad old Mary. She could she could er drink the Red Biddy, yeah that was that cheap wine. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Half a crown a bottle it was. [speaker001:] What was it called? [William:] Red Biddy.... South Africa.... Oh boy oh boy, she used to. [speaker001:] Can you remember any nicknames had by the local folk? [William:] Aye there was all, ah well no th they near nearly all got called by their surnames. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] There was old, old only sold one thing and that was naphthalene balls, you ken? Moth balls. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And yeah, he had a great big bag of... er naphthalene balls, and of course he, he went to a, near the villagers down here in and he knocked the door with a stick you ken? And this wifey come out and she gave him a nasty talking to, chapping [cough] chapping on her door with a stick. He said, did you expect me to chap with my head? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [William:] Aye.... Do you expect me to chap with my head? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [William:] And then there was [LAUGHTER] there was aye, I told you about Pat, he swept chimleys. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] He er... and then there was old Heather. Oh and then there used to be another old fellow come here, they called him. He played the tin whistle for a living, you ken, he used to play up and down the streets in and and. And by he could play it. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] He was a grand tin whistle player. [speaker001:] And are these, all these peop people you're telling me about they would just walk around and sleep wherever they could? [William:] Oh yes, oh aye. The last one that st was here you ken how long he stayed?... Sixteen years. [speaker001:] In the area? [William:] In the, in the byre. [speaker001:] When was that about? [William:] He just, well Charlie they called him. He was an Irishman. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And he used to stay in a hostel in, [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] and as long as he could give a residence [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] he could get social security but here they closed the social security bit down in and he'd nowhere so he came up here, oh he'd stayed here many time previous to that. [speaker001:] When would this be? [William:] Oh well he died [speaker001:] I mean the sixteen years, what, what time? [William:] [cough] He'd come here just about nineteen fifty something. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And of course he came here, he, and one day and he says, could I gi give this place as an address and I'll get social security? I says, och aye, certainly Charlie. So he made up a bed in the front of the byre there, and he was sixteen year in it. And he used to walk from here to and sign on twice a week. And walk back. [speaker001:] And how old would he be? [William:] Well he was seeming to six when he died.... You see... he used to get over the stick pretty often, if you understand what I mean by over the stick? [speaker001:] Aye. [William:] Er this night he was, when I went into the byre in the morning Charlie wasn't there. So I waited, he generally turned up, I've seen him not be up home till eight and half past eight in the morning but he never turned up so about nine o'clock I says, I'd better phone the police. So I phoned the police and I said, Charlie went away last yesterday, I says, and he hasn't turned back up this morning. I says, I doubt he must be lying around somewhere. So here, oh the policeman says, aye we'll attend to it. However, about ten o'clock the police car come up into the close and I was up in the workshop and I says to him I says, aye, I says, have you found Charlie? He says, aye, we've found him. I says, he'll be bracksy Do you know what bracksy is? Eh? [speaker001:] Er filled with drink? [William:] No. [speaker001:] No. [William:] It's a disease sheep die with. [LAUGHTER] I says, he'll be bracksy He says, oh, he says, he's far worse than that, he's dead. Well bracksy and dead's the same, they got him lying dead in the wood away down here at the. [speaker001:] When was this? [William:] It'd be about two year ago. Just at, two years just now. [speaker001:] And he died seventy six years ago [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] and this time of year, January. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Just about this time. [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Seventy nine. [William:] Ach [speaker001:] Seventy eight, eighty, nineteen eighty it would be. [William:] It would have been that. Seventeen, er eighteen, er nineteen seventy nine. It would be, it's not that, not that desperate. [speaker001:] Oh right. [William:] But oh he was a worthy, and he hated the ruddy Irish. [speaker001:] Did he? [William:] He was an Irishman mind you. But he fair detested them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] Another, another Irishman was a dagger to Charlie [LAUGHTER].... Oh he was, he was embittered against his own kind, you ken. [speaker001:] Mhm.... You've had your fair share of characters up here. [William:] Oh hold your tongue. You ken when there, there are, this, this old Mary that I tell you about er, she'd had smallpox when she was young, she used to be a herring gutter. You ken? A kipper. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] She wor used to work in the kipper industry, and she'd had smallpox once, knocked her off cos you should have seen her face. It was an awful mess, and I remember Jimmy, er saying about old Mary, You'd think her face had worked. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's, that's his description? [William:] Eh? [speaker001:] That's her, his, his description of her? [William:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] She'd a tinkered face. [William:] Oh aye.... [cough]... That she had an old Tom, Mary and Tom. [speaker001:] Mm. [William:] He used to make bru er heather brushes and... pot scrubbers. They all had their, they all had a kind of trade they could [speaker001:] And they would all come through and stay a few nights with [William:] That's right, and move on. [speaker001:] So then, where else would they go to stay? [William:] Oh well... they used to have a list of places. The was the main place round here but they used to stay a lot at the... er over there at., that's over by, they stayed there and although they just had their places that, that you ken they never [speaker001:] What would you say in the Galloway for somebody that just stayed pa passing through the farm here, you know, going from place to place, [William:] Oh, [speaker001:] passing through. [William:] well we used to call them tramps. [speaker001:] No but I mean, ah you know the word for going from place to place [William:] Oh [speaker001:] and passing through. [William:] what would we call that? [speaker001:] Just like what they would do. [William:] We'd just have no... I just cannot think of it. You see and then you'll be away and I'll say to myself now that describes it. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Again but... it's not easy just getting asked a thing just right away. [speaker001:] Oh right. [William:] Just trying to remember you ken that professor, he came twice here, [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] er... I know he was really amused at some of the sayings we had. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] He was, he said he'd send us, once they'd got it all sorted out he said he'd send us a book, the book on it. He was gonna write a book about it he said. [speaker001:] Did never. [William:] But I've never got it. [cough] [speaker001:] The Encyclopedia has, by you know has all the words. [William:] Oh aye. You see I have... my son-in-law [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] oh boy he's the boy to go and ask about, he's got all the old books. [speaker001:] Has he? [William:] Ooh, aye thousands of pounds worth. [speaker001:] Is he er what does he do? [William:] He's a timber merchant, [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] he's in the timber trade I should say. He lives up just two or three mile up the road there,. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] But he's got all books and aye all the, what do you call that other one? [speaker001:] There's East Galloway Sketches, there's Galloway Gossip. [William:] Aye, Galloway Gossip, ah but he has, there used to be a, a monthly magazine come out they called the Gallovadian. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] And it was very very interesting, he has quite an assortment of them, but he hasn't, [speaker001:] The whole lot? [William:] no no. [speaker001:] And there's the Transactions. [William:] Oh aye, and the funny thing, he was away down in England one day, and he went into this shop, and here, there was this bundle of magazines, and he had a look and here it was the Gallovadians. And he bought them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] And er, of course I, when I go up there I, I read some of his you ken old books and that and this night I was up, he'd Gallovadians you see. And I gets this one out and I'm reading through it and I looks at the name John, and then I began to take an interest in it and, here I discovered that... my grandfather and my great grandfather that's like... my grandfather and my grandmother's father [speaker001:] Mhm. [William:] were on the jury when was hanged at for murder. And my grandfather was on the jury when, Mary... was hanged, was you ken convicted. [speaker001:] This is what, going back to the [William:] She was the last woman to be hanged in Scotland. [speaker001:] Aha. [William:] Mary. [speaker001:] And your grandfather was on that jury? [William:] He was on that jury, and he was in the sa a jury with this [speaker001:] What did she do? [William:] He was a farmer. [speaker001:] No what did sh she do? [William:] Who? Mary? [speaker001:] Aye.

[speaker001:] can I start by asking your name? [Laurie:] Well my name is er Mr Laurence er o of the Treasurer of the in Edinburgh area. [speaker001:] And erm what was your date of birth? [Laurie:] My date of birth was the thirty first of the, of the seventh, O nine. Which makes me now approximately seventy six years of age. [speaker001:] What can you remember from when you were young about sort of housing conditions and [Laurie:] What I remember of the housing conditions when I was then residing in Motherwell, a mining er community. And known that particular time as the steel town of Scotland. [speaker001:] Was erm the whole town taken up with these sort of two occupations? [Laurie:] Yes, it was all mining and steelworks. Was all. In fact the Ravenscraig, present Ravenscraig was built up on the first place from a steelworks known then as Corral Steelworks. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] And D L Steelworks and Lanarkshire Steelworks, these er steelworks, all amalgamated which is now known as the Ravenscraig Steelworks. [speaker001:] Mhm. What erm what kind of education did you go to when you? [Laurie:] Well I, my education was in a small er the local school, School in Motherwell. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] And they were only a s s a sort of infants and secondary school er there, and you. There was no, all these highfalutin er certificates to gain en all you had to, had to gain to be fit for employment then was a qualifying certificate, that was the only certificate issued in those days. A qualifying certificate. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er how old were you when you left the school? [Laurie:] I was er four I left the school at fourteen years of age and I was down the pit the following day. [speaker001:] The following day? Mm. What do you remember about working in the pit? [Laurie:] Well the working in the pit and the first and the first time I went down the pit er the pit was er John Watson's number four colliery in Motherwell. And er I went with my dad and got into the cage which takes you down to the pit bottom and er er er immediately the cage left the surface it just dropped like a stone and I myself was frightened that the bottom of the cage collapsed completely. Because my stomach come up and met my heart [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Laurie:] and everything went. When I reached the pit bottom, there was approximately three feet of water at the pit bottom and I had my first experience of water in the mines. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Were the conditions in the mines quite dangerous in those days? [Laurie:] Well in those days er there wasn't much me much er coal cutting machine, this was all hewn by hand. And we had the pit ponies and where we didn't have the pit ponies drawing the hutches, which we termed the small wagons carrying the coal from the coal face to the pit bottom, then er we had to do it by hand. And if there were h a wagon or a hutch went off the road there you were with not enough height to lift it all back off the rail again and believe me that was experience in itself. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So it was quite a difficult job then? [Laurie:] It was a difficult job, yes. [speaker001:] Mm. What were the erm the wages and the hours like? [Laurie:] Ooh, the wages. I started the wages and er I didn't have much more, I started I had six and eight pence per shift. [speaker001:] Mm. And er what were the hours like? [Laurie:] The hours, well sometimes I would do a double shift which was sixteen hours. Or eight hours for a full shift, sixteen hours for a double shift. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] And in those days we required the money and er often, very often we had to do it to strengthen our wages a bit. Do a double shift. Which meant you come home from your double er shift, went to your bed, had about four hours sleep and were back out for your normal shift again. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Was you erm in a union or anything at all at this time? [Laurie:] Yes, the miners' union then was just wasn't that that was started was. In fact there's, very near the start of the unions in and o er that, that the miners' union was one of the first to start up. [speaker001:] Do you think it gave you erm any advantages being in a union? [Laurie:] Y oh yes it gave us advantage to the extent that we'd someone b behind us to fight for any, any er grievances that we had. That was the idea of the union starting out in the first place. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] We had to pay into a union. We can, on every Friday there was a union official down there in a small hut. We had straight from our wages straight to the union, it's payed at union right away. So that there was nobody skipped. [speaker001:] What were the erm the erm relations between the w the workers and the bosses like? [Laurie:] Ah well more or less much the same as it is today. That's what we got the union for. That's what we got the union for. That's what we got the union for, to make sure that these things did not happen. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] That we wouldn't be stepped upon. [speaker001:] Were you involved in er any strikes or anything? [Laurie:] Yes, I was involved in the nineteen twenty six strike. And in nineteen twenty er strike going at the present day there was what we called the soup kitchens. And every local village where there was a mine had these soup kitchens. I do not forget the other unions which were going at that present time helped us out quite a bit. Though we los we actually lost the strike through no fault of our own. There was just because there wasn't enough money within all unions, not forget that there wasn't such a thing as a T U C then, this was in at the infancy when the unions first started, there wasn't such as a T U C, Trades Unions Congress. These were er in, in its infancy then and er we had a soup kitchen and er we, we got soup once a day, when we got issued with it. Each family took over a, a ration card. And you got so many slices of bread, so many pots of soup. And this was all done in old wash houses, where they used to have the boilers. Where we used to b boil the water. And the soup was made in these boilers, and they were issued with their soup then. And that was all we got. [speaker001:] What was it erm started the strike in the first place? [Laurie:] Well they started the strike as muddled as as some greens come up and the men as union thought that was not right. Not forgetting in that most of the mines then, at that particular time, were nearly all privately owned. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] Were nearly all privately owned. Were nearly all privately owned. Most, right across the length and breadth of Great Britain, were all privately owned. Which the present administration of central government are doing their best to, under the same hammer as [LAUGHTER] it was in those days, so [] it's just, this is just a repeat performance of the those days and the government today. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was what it erm finally brought about the end of the strike in twenty six? [Laurie:] Pardon? [speaker001:] What was it finally brought about the end of the strike in nineteen twenty six? [Laurie:] Well it were just like I like I the unions weren't as, as er financially well off as they were er at the present day. There was not the money, we were forced to. As I say the present day er premier just now is actually trying to do the same thing as a repeat performance [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So sort of erm what was, was there erm any victimizations or anything like that, from the bosses when you went back to work? [Laurie:] Oh immediately there was a victimization in the pit,o the pit was out. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] It was er taken there. The grievance was taken to the union, the union just say er told the steward who belonged to that particular pit there, right, just call the men out, that's it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] S so erm did presumably are quite strong like that then? [Laurie:] Oh oh yes oh yes it was one of the be it still is one of the best unions. Still is one of the best for sticking [speaker001:] mm. Was there erm I've forgotten what I was going ask you. Er mm were there erm many strikes at the time? [Laurie:] Oh no, oh no, oh there were all v very few and far be there may have been local strikes but, such as one day er a grievance been put in and the men struck work just for it. But immediately the get a result. So all our lads are more or less, that was lightning strikes and finish off. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] One day and it was finished you know? Because that would union, you see? [speaker001:] Did you work in the pits for a long time? [Laurie:] I was five years in the pits. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] Er eh in er in Lanarkshire and Motherwell, and er at that time, being a young lad no more between er f er fourteen and twenty, I realized then that wasn't going to be a life for me. So I then decided that I would join the army. Now I joined the army. I served my time in both India, Palestine, Gibraltar, Egypt and these sort of places abroad and when I, I nine months of my colour service to finish, which were a twelve year service, [cough] when war broke out in nineteen thirty nine. I then went er across to France with the B E F. Was in France about nine months approximately when the big invasion started in Poland and through France. I was taken prisoner of war at Saint Valerie for a few of my friends in from Edinburgh who were taken prisoner of war. I was taken to a main camp called Lamstor camp in er Polish er German border. And er you, you know what happened then? I was back down hole again. [LAUGHTER] For another five years work, so I served five years in Germany too as a, as a miner. [speaker001:] The prisoners of war were used as miners in the [Laurie:] Oh yes [speaker001:] camps? [Laurie:] yes. Oh yes. We were used as miners, yes. [speaker001:] How did the pay and the conditions and such like in the army compare with erm being in the mines? [Laurie:] Er the, the money, the money that I money difference wasn't great but the fact was er who you were thinking about er when you did come out. You had a lot of, a lot of qualifications which you could get in the army in those days that you didn't have when you were in civil life. For instance you could learn to be a, a motor driver, you could learned to be an electrician, you could learn to be an engineer, you could learn to be anything. And you through these courses and you got a certificate when you come out which er some of the said to us, a fully qualified member of a, so these advantages were open to us then you see? [speaker001:] Mm. So this was the, the main incentive for joining the army then? [Laurie:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Was that the main incentive for joining the army? Knowing that you gain qualifications? [Laurie:] Well my that was my incentive the mines. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Laurie:] But as I've already told you [LAUGHTER] just, it was very ironical that I should l go back down the hole in er Germany again []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Were the conditions worse in the, in the German mines? In the? [Laurie:] Oh no, I the mine, the mines in Germany at that time were far advanced of what er Britain's mines were. Cos they had different methods of doing the, digging the coal out, than they h than they had in Britain. And I believe. Although I've not been down a mine since then, er the German mines to my er estimation were far more advanced than what the British mines were. [speaker001:] Were you made to work hard harder being a prisoner of war? [Laurie:] No harder than we did in Britain. You could not, no, a miner once he's been a miner, cannot go down er a pit and say to anyone down a pit, and say to anyone down a pit, that he's not a miner. Because he gives his right away. The experience he has gained in the mines at immediately a man g a man who has been in the mines goes down there again his er n er he gives himself away, because, just because of the experiences. I saw an incidence er down in the, the mine a, a miner himself can tell, by the creak of a tree just where the heavy, heavy weight's coming on the, on the, the roof. And where there's likely to be a fall. And the miner can only pick up a, a pick and knock the rook and he can tell exactly where er where it's weakest in the rook. [cough] So, so these thi these things did do, show up when you're d when you're down the mines. A ma a magic phase, you can't give it away. And they didn't ne we didn't need the if we were a miner. A mine w a miner could tell another miner by his accent. Not just by him telling he's a miner he can say er that's a miner. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What, what did you do erm after the war? When you came back to Britain. [Laurie:] Well I, well er I came back to Britain er I, I was er liberated by General Patton in a, a small place called Erfurt I was flown from Erfurt into Cherbourg, and from Cherbourg into a small place called Amersham which was a reception station for prisoners of war, where we were treated er on entering the camp we were handed a telegram. All we had to do was sign our name to it. And these telegrams were for, to our nearest and next of kin, telling us we were now safely home. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Did erm did you notice any great differences when you came back from the war? [Laurie:] Oh vast vast differences [speaker001:] To the, to the [Laurie:] er yes. Oh vast differences. My first experience in going into tramcars er in, in Edinburgh anyway and I suppose that the same thing would have happened er in any country, just gone through the ravages of war, with blackouts and so forth. The people from the highest paid to the lowest paid were all just one unit. And I wish to God that would just come back again, now there people would just treat one of our as they did it one of during the war's years. And I can't see any reason why they can't. Why they should, people with a higher look down their nose at the people who are lower than themselves, I can not figure out. I think we need another war to get [LAUGHTER] rid of the er get rid of some of the thing [] that's happening at the present day. [speaker001:] So you think the war erm unified the people? Behind the [Laurie:] Er it definitely it had proved it itself. It proved it, the war years proved it to the people. Er that they were, they were all just one. But nowadays we're not, nowadays we, there's a higher, a middle class and a lower class and a lower lower class. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What erm what kind of employment did you find when you came back from the war? [Laurie:] Well I, I erm my first employment was in the, was in the building trade with er an old firm in Edinburgh called and believe me I was not a very fit person then after seven, five years and I was like a rake, I was like a skeleton. And I got there and by good luck I got a very good er site agent and after asking me what I'd done, he says it's alright son we'll build you up. And he actually treated me like a, more or less a son, the site agent, and he made sure er I gradually developed my muscles. He never put me on a heavy job until at such times he thinks I was fit. Well that's the way I was treated when I came home. By the the I served five year then and I left that and I went into corporation transport which was tramcars then. And I went then from a, a timber mill and they there's various different jobs I've been in since then, you know? [speaker001:] What was the conditions like in the building trade after the war? [Laurie:] Well er you know at that time there in the building trade there was er what they term a, an essential work order. Which you had, the government, the government or building firms had to guarantee you forty four hours' payment f of wages, forty four hours guaranteed and you had to get that whether you were working or not. So that was an essential work order was by the government in power then. That m er the firms must guarantee forty four hours wages for the man, doesn't matter what [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was, was this erm to protect the men or to make sure that erm [Laurie:] It's er it's more or less a retainer for the men. [speaker001:] Aha. [Laurie:] A retainer so that they could have, that man couldn't go in another job [speaker001:] . Aye. Presumably this was cos there was a big erm a big surge on to rebuild the [Laurie:] Oh yes, yes there was [speaker001:] country [Laurie:] yes, yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] The, the present, the present day er in Edinburgh, the present day buildings that I helped to build up are now in Pilton and in fact er out in Saint I built, that was a er built a fact I did all the rough. Both in Pilton and in present day er Pilton Circus which is er er there's a lot of er controversy going over er m making them, privatizing them and so forth but I l I was er the building of these things and did all the er the work for them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is that erm quite a dangerous job working on the, on the building sites? [Laurie:] Well it depending what, what sort of job you're doing. All depending what sort of job your job, it could be dangerous if you didn't know what you were doing. I mean you couldn't put a stranger on a job that you, you yourself. But once you were qualified for the job you couldn't put a stranger on you had to ta teach that stranger a job. Before what he was to [LAUGHTER] [cough] [speaker001:] Erm where did you go after the, after the building, the building work? [Laurie:] After the building I left er the building work and became a tram conductor where I went through a course in the, down at Shrub Hall went through a conductor's course. After going through the conductor's course I then went to Leith depot, old Leith depot er of the, with the tramcars. Eventually was put on the tramcars as a, a conductor. Served with them as a conductor er for about approximately four years er and the experiences I had er as a conductor were many and varied er er if you do er recall er the old tramcars er the fares weren't in comparison today. I can remember quite vividly the old tramcars running there er day and night, with the last service leaving the outskirts of Edinburgh around about er twelve er eleven thirty and you g have about ten minutes or so to reach the depots which there were many and varied at this particular time. There was depots in Tower Cross, Portobello, Leith, and many other places like that. But while I tramcar leaving any suburban area there was always what was known then as a worker's return. And that worker's return was three pence. Three pence for a worker's return. And it was always on that er tramcar, whichever er suburban district they were leaving, was always a packed car. Always fully laden. Because the conductor always had to wait until such time as the queue was diminished quite a bit and hi his tramcar was full so that the next tramcar come along er coming along, whatever number, was to be d the same thing happening again. So the suburban districts then were very well served with the old tramcars. And I believe myself today, at present day, the tramcars were coming back again, there would be, could be a way of resolving this matter of going onto different buses. I take, for instance, the present day just now where we have, what we term, the old aged pensioner's railcard. Now what is to stop, instead of an old age pensioner getting on, with their ticket, or a thirty pound annual ticket or their quarter quarterly ticket. What on earth's to stop, to have a transfer ticket, which could be used on any bus at all. So there would b take away this anomaly of old people having to use three buses to get from one end of the town to the other, which means, in actual fact, that each bus they went on to, they paid this ten pence, which if there's three, if they do not turn it twice a week, twice a day, that's sixty pence. Now why can't they issue a ticket, transferable ticket... So I don't have to use three buses, all I have to do is I've got one ticket, now that ticket reserved for [LAUGHTER] particular []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you think then that the er trams provided a better service for the people than the buses? [Laurie:] Well we were a better er service, they were a better ser I'm not saying that I think so, I know [LAUGHTER] they were a better service [] don doesn't does n they're not quite proof, there were in an tramcar Edinburgh Corporation tramcars were running, they were running at a, a, every year a profit. Whereas at the present time, with the buses, it's all deficits. If that is not proof I. The one speech for the other surely. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was you erm in a union at this time, when you were in the [Laurie:] Yes, Transport and General Workers' Union was, yes. [speaker001:] Did you find that erm there was more advantages in being in the union, when you working on the trams? [Laurie:] Oh there always is advantages. If you're a staunch union member there is advantages. With the proviso that you keep your payments up to date. And attend your branch meetings. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was there any erm disputes or anything at that time on the, on the trams? [Laurie:] Oh very few and far between. Very few and far between. Maybe just locally, at local garages but as far as, far as being the all national or anything like that, there was never anything I with the tramcars. [speaker001:] Were the erm the relations with the bosses and the workers quite good, on the? [Laurie:] Very good, very good. Oh. Even with the inspectors too, there was always a good er going with the, the people in those days. [speaker001:] Mhm. And was this quite a well paid job? [Laurie:] Well it erm it was average, it was average. Yes. [speaker001:] And er did you have to work like erm shifts and things like that? [Laurie:] Oh yes. Ex exactly the same as going to the present day. You had the split shifts and the down shifts and maybe we were called for er a [speaker001:] What did you do after you left, you left the trams? [Laurie:] After I left the trams then er I went er I went away to East Kilbride. I used to work for a certain er c er creamery there. Er getting milk, separating milk er pasteurizing milk and like that. [speaker001:] Was East Kilbride one of the erm one of the new towns? [Laurie:] it was er now it was, now at the start of the new town er present East Kilbride a new town, it was known as a new town and it was just starting to build up. And I had better chances of getting a proper house for myself and my family which was then two daughters and my wife and I. So we actually went there to better ourselves and try and get a h a reasonable house to sort of live in and [speaker001:] Was there a lot of encouragement given to people to move out premises? [Laurie:] Oh yes, at that time there was, yes. Oh yes. If they accepted it of course. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was it er easy finding a job at that time as well, in the, in the new towns? [Laurie:] Oh yes. It was being that the, the Rolls Royce Saturday, came in to East Kilbride and, and American firms like that were coming along. Singer sewing machines and sort of things like that. They were all coming into East Kilbride, there was b cos after all there was starting off a new town and they was building up then from it. [speaker001:] What were the erm conditions like in the creamery where you worked? [Laurie:] Very good. We got our free milk, of course, we got our free milk. That was one [LAUGHTER] we got our free milk as many pints of milk as we required for to keep our fam but no more, no more than that, just much your family had they'd allow you a pint per per person. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was it erm was it hard work in the in the creamery? [Laurie:] Oh no. No not in comparison to the jobs I'd already been in. Oh no this was much easier for me. Because [LAUGHTER] at that time []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And er after this did you move back to Edinburgh? [Laurie:] I moved back to Edinburgh too because er my er my family had taken a yearning for Edinburgh, they didn't like East Kilbride so I says left. And also it's true today, you go where your family wants to go and that was, this was er they had a yearning for that and they were not settling down so [speaker001:] What did you do when you when you moved back to Edinburgh? [Laurie:] Well I went into a timber yard er known as er, what was the timber yard again now? . And they. Where as I said er working with timber. [speaker001:] Was that erm like sawmill or something? [Laurie:] Sawmills, sawmills and. Cabinet makers [speaker001:] Was that a dangerous job? [Laurie:] Well it could be dangerous, if you didn't watch what you were doing. Like every other, other job you've got to er gain experience as you go along, you've got to experience. And you've always got to, you've always g advice and on how to handle it before you, you put actually handling them. [speaker001:] Were there erm any accidents or anything? [Laurie:] Er but if there was any accidents through negligence, if there were accidents, it was negligence er and the people by themselves. Which is er worker often, often often most of our accidents is caused by negligence. [speaker001:] So what were the conditions in the er in the mill like? [Laurie:] Very good, very good conditions. Very good conditions indeed, aye. [speaker001:] Was there a union there as well? [Laurie:] Er there w wasn't a union then. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] I believe there is so now, but there wasn't then. So it, it didn't really matter to me. I've always still held my card. Although I still held my card of the Transport and General Workers. [speaker001:] Mhm. So you continue to be a member of the Transport and General [Laurie:] Oh aye, yes, oh. Oh yes. God I you could never tell if you're, you're going to be there long enough in job, if the, the boss didn't like you then he would just say well you're, you're paid off and that's it, so that's sort of benefit of keeping your union membership up you could go to anywhere where there was a trade union, a union membership and get a job. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So er the, was being unemployed at that time quite precarious? If there was [Laurie:] It was, it was. At that time, yes. It was er at that time because of the, they were very few and far between. Employment was very few and far between. Because there wasn't the same amount of work, this is just after the war I'm talking about, and there wasn't so many going then. There were only starting making themselves then. Er [speaker001:] So were erm were jobs quite hard to come by in those days, after the war? [Laurie:] Well er well it all depended on the individual themselves. If there's a miner who's in getting work. Although you had to be very careful in er in d knowing what to go after. Depending on the rate of wages. [LAUGHTER] Depending on the rate of wages. So you're actually, if you're going for a job, you want er for the highest place where you get the highest wages, which was a [LAUGHTER] for any working, you're going to [] [speaker001:] What did you do after you left the erm after you left the timber mill? [Laurie:] After the timber mill, er. Now can I remember about after the timber mill? Let's see now. My mind's a blank I've been in that many different jobs now. [speaker001:] I thought you said you were in a, a warehouse after that wasn't [Laurie:] Oh that's right. You I was in a warehouse at served thirteen year there. And I was working in a large warehouse, a three floor warehouse, a grocers, grocers. [cough] I served there for thirteen year, became a chargehand eventually and eventually the f the firm folded up. [speaker001:] What were they [Laurie:] Very old established firm, it was established in er eighteen fifty six. So it was a, a, a firm of about a hundred years standing at that time. But the both brothers who owned it er Charles er John and Tom were becoming very very aged and were not capable of carrying on the job. And they approached the son who wasn't interested so they just folded up. [speaker001:] What were the conditions like where you worked in the warehouse? [Laurie:] Ah well we, we actually made our own condition and this is one time, I'm telling you again, where my union membership came in very handy. I actually made it a [LAUGHTER] union firm []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] So you unionized the whole firm then? [Laurie:] Organ organized it. Organized the people inside it. And I explained to them what benefits they were getting. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] Although the employer was pretty reasonable to us he p always payed us sixpence above the rate. Above the normal rate. [speaker001:] What was the erm the employer's attitude to you unionizing and organizing and [Laurie:] Oh oh he didn't say, he says oh just a, it'll not worry me he says, whether you er start one or not he says. I pay my men sixpence over the, the rate. So I says well thank you very much, but still for mu l people benefit themselves. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] They're better being in a union, he says I agree with you, quite agree with you. The union fights for he says, and the union's a but I'm one of these employers who paying them, my men a plus rate, so I'm paying men sixpence plus over the normal rate so there was no difficulty there. [speaker001:] Mhm. So he obviously wouldn't have thought the union would have been much of a threat to him seeing as he [Laurie:] No, no it didn't because he was prepared to pay over er above the rate. The union already fought for that rate and they got it. But he was paying them sixpence above the rate so there was no problem to him. [speaker001:] Did you notice much differences in the work once you got promoted to a chargehand? [Laurie:] Well er there was I didn't do so much of the normal grafting naturally, but I was always, if there was a new man came on the job they would always learns. And I was to show him what to do and I made sure that all. On the first day I made sur I stayed with that man all day. As I said I stayed with that man all day. Although I wouldn't t in interfere with show him how to do the job and er I would make sure he understood the job. If he asked me such and such I'd say now this is how you do it. If he said to me, after I'd shown him, that he understood it, I would say alright, show me how you do it. And then that way the man learnt. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] The man himself learnt. And usually the man telling me he understood if eventually when he starts the job, he hasn't understood at all, he's just saying so, but I wanted to prove to the man himself that he could do it and prove to myself that he could do it. So I was in a safe and so was the man. But [speaker001:] So you were given the responsibility then to train people up? [Laurie:] given the first in this. Now then that were left on the [speaker001:] Did erm do you still keep up your union er membership right away when you were [Laurie:] Oh yes, oh yes. Aye, yes. In fact I were shop steward in the, in the building trade, I was a shop steward in the building trade. [speaker001:] Mm what did you go on to do after that? After the business folded? Was there anything like erm redundancy money or anything like that payed at that time when the place [Laurie:] Er [speaker001:] folded? And can you remember what year it was? [Laurie:] Oh it's about [speaker001:] Just roughly. [Laurie:] fifty, fifty seven I think. It was somewhere thereabout. [speaker001:] Mhm. And they didn't have all this er legislation about redundancy money or anything then? [Laurie:] No no. in its infancy then. And, and then er at that particular time you know and er then unemployment you, I you had to see each firm was issued with the and the firms had to agree that you had to sign a contract of employment so that er if you were leaving or he was paying you off, you had to be given two weeks' notice either way before they pay you off. And that was the contract of employment. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. What did you go on to do after the business folded? [Laurie:] Ah well I was, I was a y on er thing we had back in the building trade. Back in the building trade once again which I had experience before so I had no problem. And the reason in the first place I did leave the building trade was my hands was breaking out with in industrial disease, see? Dermatitis and I felt I couldn't go near cement and all of that. But then I, eventually I tried the building trade again and I joined a firm called er forget, or something like that and I was working up in George Street in, in, in Edinburgh. You always go building, we gutted right from ground floor, left the existing walls in. And then inside building we completely demolished inside, just sort of left the retaining walls and built it up from fourteen feet below the ground to five storeys, high, itself. And we had to go down through fourteen feet of solid rock. [speaker001:] So this was obviously quite a difficult job? [Laurie:] Aye it was a difficult job but as I say to have an experience mines [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] and er building trade work, both of these things had left me with the qualifications for be abl be able to do it. [speaker001:] Did you notice much difference in the sort of er erm the techniques or the machinery or whatever that was being used between? [Laurie:] Ooh vast va er er in the building trade? Oh yes, yes. For instance you see all these big they'd actually built up from the ground up, they'd no taking now just the odd. They built up from a working [cough] [speaker001:] Was there still the erm the, the thing you talked about with the guaranteed work at that time? [Laurie:] Yes. Oh aye aye. Yes but er the essential work contract then that I had spoken about in the first place the building trade, that was a government order. Essential, essential work which was operated during the war years and er what year a couple, several years after that. That was an essential b eventually that was taken away, but the building trade still believed if a building firm wanted men, they had to have at least a thirty two hour guarantee, which is at present still in operation. A thirty t they had to guarantee an employee thirty two hour guarantee, [speaker001:] Was that to get rid of the sort of ee erm the way them building firms used to take people on every day? [Laurie:] exac stop this casual labour business you see? Whe whereas the building trade would say oh I'll take you, you're a friend of mine, I'll take you you're a friend of I can take you, you're a friend. It was It was a great lot down in Leith here, and I've often seen it down in Leith docks. When I've been down there trying to get casual work, you know in Leith docks? And he just down, they're all in a big crowd. And a chap come out the offices and say right, you you you. So in actual fact it was always a favour cos I got the jobs. So to stop all that, this is with the b building trade, they had to guarantee them. [speaker001:] So presumably that was quite a popular piece of er legislation? [Laurie:] Legislation, oh definitely. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] I've had s still operating now to present day, I don't know. [speaker001:] Mm. What did you do erm after that? [Laurie:] Well as a reach up up. In fact that's what I left from, I left from the job at job street in George street with the building trade. That's when I. And I work after that. But the site prepared to let me work, to carry on then as s they ma and I wouldn't claim my pension until I'd finished. And behind that, their reasoning for that is, for every year that I worked over my retir retireable age, there's a that is added to my pension. [LAUGHTER] He says I haven't got you working long longer I worked the bigger the pension I have when I go out []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So were you allowed to work er after your retireable age? [Laurie:] Not, not at that particu when they got to hear about it. [speaker001:] Mm. [Laurie:] Of course they, they had questions of and he says oh well I've sat with him, the man's prepared working at Lambert, but no you can't allow the man to work after he's sixty and that was it. So that was me on. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] But the OAPs [] [speaker001:] Were you involved in any erm political parties or anything er? [Laurie:] No no not necessary though, though I have done quite a wee bit just now er in support of my Labour Party, you know? Done quite a wee bit and I've been there at a few of their, quite a few of their meetings and erm a good friend of quite a few of the councils. And Lothian District Council. Quite a good friend of them you know and I'm a close contact with them. [speaker001:] Is it just been recently that you've started to get involved? [Laurie:] Within the last ten years, I've been ten years activ actively concerned with the old aged pensioners' association and er the Labour movement. [speaker001:] Mhm. D do y do you think there's a great difference between the Labour Party now and the Labour Party when you were working? Ah well, more or less the same. They're more or less as a, I don't think there's a great lot of difference onl I d I, they're not pushing, they haven't the same, the, I would like to say, I would say they haven't the same interest in their union, they've not the same interests in the union as they had in the earlier days when there was a union. Mm. Did your involvement in the trade unions when you were young got lead to your, any involvement in the Labour Party or anything like that? [Laurie:] Oh no, not necessarily through the union, no no. I've just had so solely an interest to defend myself. Ah but I believed if I'm going to discuss or argue about anything as regarding that I had to be interested in it. And to be interested you've got to attend your branch meetings and know what's going on. Whether it be a union branch meeting or any other branch meeting you had to be there and you had to know what you're talking about. [LAUGHTER] Don't just go into these meetings and sat there [] like a dumbbell. You liked it, if you've been active at all you'd want to know what's going on. And the only way you can do that is b attending your branch meetings. I mean there's no, no use a man being employed and he's got a shop steward... if he don't and depend on the shop steward coming down to tell him what happens in the meeting. My reply to these people, if they asked me what happened at the branch meeting I say, do you want to know what happened in the branch meeting? Yes, I said well attend them. [LAUGHTER] So that was er that was my answer [speaker001:] When you were er in the unions and you were a shop steward, did you find that you got a lot of people working in branch meetings? [Laurie:] Well it wasn't too bad, it were not too bad from the, the firm that I oper I worked from. The firm that I worked from weren't too bad. But as I say as paying the er r I, I've seen them when I'm going round the site er I got an option from the firm, I'd be allowed time off my work, my actual work on the, on the, on the site, to go round and collect their unions dues. I'd got an option from the firm and they were very good that way. And I've seen them, whenever they see me come along, going away and trying to hide. But I say there's been a [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You mentioned the erm the National Association of [Laurie:] Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Associations [speaker001:] Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. What do they erm, that, what does that association do? [Laurie:] Oh well wait a I'm just going to read first to you. [reading] the name of the association shall be the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. The, the association shall be non party and non sectarian [], you understand my meaning by that? [reading] That we advocate the immediate implementation of the Scottish Old People's Chapter, to strive to maintain and improve the standard of living of pensioners by ensuring that the pension will rise according to the cost of living or er or livings or earnings,which er whichever is the most advantageous []. And number, and two, [reading] to press for the provision of suitable houses for old people at rents they can afford. And social services as may be required to ensure the welfare of the aged, as set out in our declaration of intent. In cooper in cooperation with bodies on all questions affecting the welfare of pensioners []. That's er br [speaker001:] Is it er was it a very large organization? [Laurie:] Well we er it's a, it's a national organization in fact, it's, it's all over the country, all over er Scotland. From as far up as er In er Inverness down to the er borders. Er branches approximately thirty one branches in Edinburgh which I myself er er attend to. As far as the financial side of things goes. And er a g a good er and er, can be er the mi the name itself, the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association is not to be mistaken from er, sometimes it's misread as the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. Now if you use that, that g gives the people the wrong impression that you must be a pensioner before you can join it, but this is not so. It's, it's known as the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association. Not the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. You can join this association any time after the age of eighteen. [speaker001:] Do you have a lot of er younger members? [Laurie:] That's what we er we want, that's what we require, because don't forget old people er, in fact our present national treasurer, a Mrs Mary, is now serving as the national treasurer and has done for the last thirty five years. Still national treasurer and she's o well over eighty, she's still the national treasurer. Board of conference, every year for two, two days conference, and we go to different parts of the country, Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow, Stirling, you name it, we have conference in. It changes every year so we go to these conference and we fight on our declaration of intent, on pensions, pensions reviews, that's er reviewing a pension what we're trying to get for the government of the day to review the pensions every six months instead of at the present every year. are as an instance do that, the present government er last year, in fact since it some over, it was the seventy nine, er nineteen seventy nine. We were getting paid our pensions on the first week of Nove November. Now if anyone like to look at the present day and er pension book, they'll discover that since then, for the last three years, they've done the people of this country out of one week's pension every year. They've now, this government has actually made a, a fifty three year or a fifty four week year. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is it a very er lobby, [Laurie:] Ooh yes yes yes. We're, I am up at least, anything from ten to twelve times a year up at Lothian regional council or the district council in deputations concerning, anything concerning the Old Age Pensions Associations. And has been imposed on old people of er Edinburgh and er. So the, they're, the old people have been been done o out of a lot of money. This year in itself, the single person has been done out of two pound ninety pence and er after the er older ones that's four pound odd. This year alone. So if you total it up,... [tape change] Be er again and first of all council being a, being a council, and they succeeded very well. And at the Leith, South Leith very very well and they just er district council. [speaker001:] Was there a lot of that sort of feeling around, that sort of protestant action [Laurie:] No no this one man this one, one man in the whole of Edinburgh district council was protestant tax. What er caused them to put that for the er group forward I could not tell you, but that's what he stood for, this protestant action. He was neither Liberal, Labour, Conservative, none of them, he was just, he [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mm. What had been a er election representative until [Laurie:] Er er an election agent, election agent when you're er a er d doing the work of an election agent, you've got to be responsible for all the data going out concerning the running of the election. Making sure that your candidate attends every meeting, for er s you know during er an election campaign they've got to attend all the meetings. Well the election agent was the man responsible for getting that data through to the, the candidate to say that you're speaking at a meeting, such and such a night, and another meeting at such and such so keeping the, keeps that candidate on his toes, all the time, during an election campaign until election's over and then of course er you know what [LAUGHTER] transpires after that I su [] it's either [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Was you involved in the Labour Party for a long time before erm before you were the election agent? [Laurie:] No. No no no no. No n never. Of course I had this spell er er don't forget I was five years as a prisoner of war, and a lot of interest because I was a union member pra b previous to that you see? [speaker001:] Was this what erm led you to join the Labour Party? Your initials at a trade union [Laurie:] Yeah yes, that was er actually yes er [speaker001:] Mhm. [Laurie:] I wanted to see how it o o operated politically. I'd heard a lot about er af er I've been in the Transport and General Workers' Union as a shop steward and so forth like that. That this was interesting me. I want to know, find out the workings of it, politically. [speaker001:] What did erm how did you find the Labour Party at that time compares with the Labour Party now? [Laurie:] Oh much better. W er united. It's not united at the present day, there are far too many lefts and rights and centres. If there's e if there any party's operating at all, there's only one p one thing and that's centre. No lefts, no rights, centre. United. And the same in most of our organizations in this country at the present day, and that's what's wrong. It's holding them back. When you've got a left, a right and a centre, you've got three different parties within a party. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So the Labour Party got united then at that time? [Laurie:] Oh definitely, very well united, yes. Then. But don't forget that was just after the war and er the Labour were beginning to build up, getting things better, run better country than they were previous p people. [speaker001:] Did the Labour Party gain a lot of support after the war? [Laurie:] Oh yes, aye they did oh. Oh aye proved it, they got in. E eventually they got into parliament. [speaker001:] Erm now did your er Labour Party membership lapse after, after that time? [Laurie:] Er yes it did lapse. Because I had seen my young brother-in-law and I says I'm gonna be like that then, didn't fe er feel any of this er at that time. Me, as the district council. I couldn't see myself doing it so as I said I wasn't going to make a fool of myself by putting my name as being nominated forward er as a candidate etcetera lose interest that's the first thing that happened because they knew I was an outspoken bloke. I knew spoke too much next nominee, next candidate for. [LAUGHTER] And I felt it wasn't up to them, I didn't have enough experience I wanted to gain some more experience but it just fell away, lapse. [speaker001:] And erm you're, you're not a member of the Labour Party again? [Laurie:] No I'm not a member of the Labour Party yet. [speaker001:] Oh. [Laurie:] You see the pre the present system we've got Scottish Old Age Pensioners is non sectarian, non political. You understand? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is this er does that actually debar from belonging to er [Laurie:] Oh I could have er er well it doesn't debar me but I feel it, it would it wouldn't be right, for me being a Labour Party member sitting on a, a non-segregated and non-political gr er ah association, [speaker001:] Mhm. Now er you, you mentioned your, your pensions association. Now you're area treasurer, aren't you, for the [Laurie:] Area treasurer, er Edinburgh area [speaker001:] Can you tell me a bit about the organization and what its aims [Laurie:] Well the aims I'll just read this and this says, this gives you most. This [reading] the name of the association shall be the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association. The association will be non party and non sectarian. One. That we advocate the immediate implementation of the Scottish Old People's Chapter to strive to maintain and improve the standard of living of pensioners by ensuring that the pension will rise according to the cost of living or earnings, whichever is er is the most ad advantageous. Two. To press for the provision of suitable houses for old people at rents they can afford. And social services as may be required to ensure the welfare of the aged as set out in the declaration of intent. To this end we employ all constitutional means in cooperation with similar bodies on all questions affecting the welfare of pensioners []. That's, that's our aim. Aim and object of it. Where the,le let's say association was first formed on the thirteenth of February nineteen seven, nineteen thirty seven, so you can see by that date fifty years an established national organization for the whole of Scotland. What does the er the organization do? The organiz er organization doing is er fighting in every place where we think that there are o old aged pensioners being in er imposed upon in any way. Whether it be welfare, gas bills, housing, you name it and we're in there fighting to, to keep them above the water, their heads above the water. [speaker001:] You go on about erm some of the experience you've had, some of the you've met. [Laurie:] Well I er er er I've occasionally thing that was about last ye er year or the year before a as being a member of one of the, one of the lunch clubs. Er and er the Lothian region took over the lunch clubs when they took over er this two tier government in Scotland, you know? They took over the lunch clubs. And immediately they started raising the prices of the lunch clubs. Well we were up there one time er at the Lothian region and we to be up and tell that this was imposing higher things on, higher prices on both the bus buses, because they were raising the bus fares at the same time, and they were increasing the lunch club. Now the, the pensions when they raised at the same time, because we only pension raised every year, and we're up there at that particular time at the Lothian region, a full council meeting. And er we had told them that the q the quality of the food was reasonable. But the quantity the quantity of the food being issued in lunch clubs was very very u even disgraceful. I er er I serve our people with quantity of food that's supposed to be meant to be a dinner for an old old age person. And er they listened very carefully to us, in fact council of Kivanagh actually brought up a sample of the dinner they issued to old people and I, I did notice as soon as they put this sample on the table the opposition the c Conservatives and they still are, their heads bowed. They refused to look at it. And I would have thought that that was a disgraceful thing to do in a public, in the council to a, a sample being brought up and they were afraid to look at it. Their heads were actually downcast, they themselves were ashamed of it and yet they would not commit themselves to vote for it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Will you tell me a little about the erm the campaigns you've the erm the free erm travel on the buses [Laurie:] Oh well the, the campaigns er I'm, I'm o I'm only speaking actually about the, down here in Leith I started my campaign for er the er let's see, campaign for er introd reintroduction of free travel for the elderly. The campaign was supposed to start with,a away back in the beginning of September. Well I by good luck have had some copies of the petition sent down to me, so I started it, it immediately and I had in the first they made over one thousand one hundred and twenty five signatures. In the first day. And I had er had given myself a target of five thousand for Leith so I turned up the next and made my five thousand in fact I made five thousand and fifty signatures for the h and I believe myself if, if every branch were doing the same as I had been doing then we would have no problem at all in getting a hundred thousand signatures which is our aim. And they said so at the er at the district council, went up to district and I asked for the support of the district council and er probably John immediately said, you have the full support of the district council for it he says and I'll ensure that you get support with the result I also received four posters direct from the Edinburgh District Council with John photograph on it and with the caption st stating every old age pensioner should be signing here. So that in itself was a great boost for me and it er it helped a lot. I also got support from er Labour Labour Party in Leith who sent down two volunteers to help me. So it's made a lot, a big difference too. I also had support from Lance house and from er Leith community centre. So I wasn't, I wasn't doing it all on my own, you understand my meaning? I weren't doing it all although I sort of organized it. And when I took, I had to report back to area control I was immediate I got immediate applause. But I just said I don't want any applause for this at all, I feel that every pensioner, every pensioner should sign it whether they belong to the association or not. Whether they have a senior citizens' club with the association. If they want the free bus passes they've got to something done about themselves and. One of my in fact was I can remember, I went up when I was first er paying for paying for an annual ticket with their bus passes and eight pound for a single ticket for us er for our quarterly ticket. I was up there three days campaigning, objecting to this that I'm being charged and believe me for those three days I stood right in Queen Street, just outside the offices there, and at no, any time during, at any particular time of day, you could have come along to me, and there were still one thousand five hundred people standing there, rain, hail, sleet or blow. For their tickets, and I said at the area council if they had turned up like they turned up to pay them thirty pound and eight pound, if they'd turned up at the same time with a petition form what a difference it would [speaker001:] What kind of erm reaction do you get from the different political parties to your campaign? [Laurie:] Oh well, well er most of us are b even, even the Tories themselves know, they know that we're fighting for the old people, but do they we get the same old reply from them, where is the money coming? That's the s o o reply, and that is all cos because of the central go government support grant who are naturally younger. They're responsible for the, for the present that they keep, they keep sending us this and that minister, and that. But they're, they're the gov they're going to end up in the government. They're going to govern the country, they cut the money off from [cough] they cut the support grant from the, the from the district council, and still are, still are, and there's going to be even bigger cuts the next year. Going to be even bigger cuts the ne and it's en there no used to Lothian Regional Council Hall and district council. If the Lothian Regional C Council can't get their money from a from, a central government, where are they going to get it from? [speaker001:] So erm do you get a lot of support from the Labour Party for your campaign? [Laurie:] Oh every time, without fear wherever you are er Labour's Scottish Commons gives full support to the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association's pensions policy. That's from our own, we also have the Trades Union Congress with the same. And that's when I say we have a, a campaign which is going to, it's a demonstration and er and rally in the end of March, of next year. When we will be marching off probably from Regents Street, proceeding along Queens er Princes Street. And then we've got us a we're going to the cinema. And that's a, and that's them all over the country, not only Edinburgh, all over the country, in north south east and west and you name it. And we have branches, but we could have a lot more because the amount of branches we have, although we have a lot of branches of Scottish Old Age Pensions we are not old age pensioners are not united, they're not united, the only way they can be united, if it's a national organization, join your national organization and fight the government. You can't do so locally, if you're all working separately. You've got to unite and get in the one gives us strength to fight them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is er how large is your organization? Nationally. [Laurie:] Well I er th well I couldn't, I'm not in a position to give the, the total because the national, the national treasurer would be able to you see? And as I said, Mrs Mary she's the national treasurer and has been for over thirty years. That woman's now approaching eighty three, eighty four years of age and she's still national treasurer, so it gives you a sort of sample of the, the kind of people they have at the top, who are really their heart and soul in it. pensioner themselves who would sit down and think, now take for instance assuming that I wouldn't be a member of that just so surely a, a senior citizens' club. Now you go into a seniors citizens' club, you enter your name and you get registered in the register, you get your cup of tea and then you get social activity. I remember thinking si sit down and say and where do we get this money pay for this tea, and this money pay for the registration. Where do you get it from? A voice says it's solely from my pension, quite able and get enough to give to join the association at less than a penny a week. [speaker001:] Do you find you get a lot of erm resonance from old age pensioners when you ask them to join. Are a lot of them er quite prepared to fight to get their erm [Laurie:] Oh the the members the members who are members of the branches are prepared to fight, but it's not them I'm er I'm the other people who are er they're gaining from our fight, they're gaining from our fight. where we've tried, we've tried to keep a reasonable pension for them. But they're not fighting because they've nobody no, national officials to fight for them. We, we have the only national organization to f er that goes on to fight for goes, goes to parliament and fights for them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Have you had any erm any sort of successes in your campaigns that you've run? [Laurie:] Oh yes oh well er er is just across in fact is across the border. Everyone got free passes over there. [speaker001:] Has that just been in re-instituted lately? [Laurie:] Yeah, oh aye. By just. It's only within the last couple of year, and then oh no you cannae do a certain of the er it was actually our vice president at the started the campaign over in Fife, and they won through. And there again the supported the, both the region and their district council. And here we have the calling under er an administration you know who they are and they're hanging their heads every time you speak, you speak to them. They're ashamed of themselves but they're afraid to admit it. They're afraid of, ashamed of themselves and they do to the old people. And they're afraid to admit it. They've all got somet an, an evasion or a counter argument with you. And it's general to fail. I've bought, I've, I've, as I say, when I pay my have you got a mother and father?. And they ne er never never answers it direct, never answers it direct. What's that got to do with it? Never comes out with anything like that just, [LAUGHTER] got another one [], answer you. [speaker001:] Can you tell me about the er incident that happened when you went to meet erm Brian at the council offices? [Laurie:] Oh yes, at that particular time, I will tell you that once again er, that was er I was supposed to go for an interview and this was er for the er declaration of intent of,wh which was er supposed to er supposed to be given every year to both the Lothian Regional Council and the District. And this is happened all over the country, each area are doing the same thing and all of this this er produce this declaration of intent and ask the, the head of the er council to put it to their members and get the support of their members. Now the r the reason for us doing that is that if they do accept it, they are duty bound as a council to write to Prime Minister, Prime Minister, direct, saying they support the declaration of intent. Cos every, cos really the should go direct to her, and it as she's taken notice of you yet. All, all it does it comes round and er er Regional Council, say no we support she's got to think,. Well that's the idea of, anyway we're going back to Brian and er accepted that he would accept the d the deputation, showing there was three of us, there was the m the president of the area council, myself and the secretary. Well we er duly arrived down at quarter to ten as twenty six of September this year. And we went up there and we had just we'd, we took the labour rooms and er of course we had got a cup of tea with them you know? And in comes Councillor the leader of the Labour group, you see? Well lads, he says, I'm sorry you'll have to wait another hour. Course naturally we, we asked why? What was the matter? He says er I've just had a phone call from Brian, he can't meet you until eleven o'clock. An an of course and naturally I says well why, why is he getting? Is he in the building? No, he says, his car's broken down. I says what a bloody excuse, I says and his car broke down, shh bloody corporation buses here, why doesn't he use a corporation bus to get in? Why doesn't he ph ring for his bloody chauffeur? Or his k [LAUGHTER] []. Why doesn't he get that? No. No he says er that, that's er that's all I can tell you er that's, he wouldn't until eleven o'clock, come. And er immediately he went there was, somewhere around about eleven o'clock he. Right, that deputation of er old age pensioners. So we immediately walk through and he's all, all. Very pleased to meet you, no no. Now he says er, what is this now, and of course immediately the president says, well you know happens er Mr, can we says you've read it before, you see? And so the our declaration of intent, you've read of before, you know what we're up here. And of course er once he read it and er put it down and scribbled in his notes. Agrees with so and so and agrees with this and agrees with that. First of all, Mr can I ask you a question? I says how come you deputation, you gave us a time of which to be here, now we said, we turned up a quarter hour beforehand and I says we get a phone call er a an intermission from Councillor that you couldn't make it because that your car broke down. He says that's right. Er, that's alright, let's behave ourselves, I says what about us, we've been here since quarter to ten waiting for you to come. You. You're not the one who's got to. I says what was wrong with you not on a corporation t er a corporation bus? And he didn't know where to look. But eventually he, he, he again when time we started and then he moved on to it, back on to declaration of intent, and they pulled him up and took. He didn't agree with er h no, he read a part of one of the d declaration of in one of resolutions, that a substantial concessionary fare would be alright. And that's what you're getting here so as far as I'm concerned. I says you're picking holes, you're picking holes and I says I'll tell you what, that declaration of intent is last year's declaration of intent. I says a new declaration of intent has not yet been printed. I says but you'll find next year when we approach you with this declaration you'll find it's been changed to free passage and where will your argument be then? [LAUGHTER]. Proper gent mi mind, don't get me wrong. Er he'll, he's a good fighter and a good, a good, a good but there's certain points you can pick holes.

[Ken:] , how did you did you find it, going back to a heavy engineering plant like after having been at for a while? [Bill:] Well obviously erm the work that er one was engaged in in was smaller than that er produced by Brothers. Mainly because Brothers were attached to the shipbuilding industry, and the making of ships catapults, er arresting gears, er submarine work, erm telemeters for ships. Erm but of course they did other work you know, which was of a general character. Er and they were what we would call medium to heavy type of er engineering. Er but the work was good. Erm for example, on the... on the er catapults, we were capable of making a catapult erm that was so efficient, that on one particular occasion the Americans and the British Navy had a competition to see how many planes they could put in the air er in a certain number of minutes. I think it was ten minutes. And er the British catapult came out on top. Erm we had a full load you know, in the air before the Americans er were three quarters of the way through. Erm and that was using their own U S A er catapult. [Ken:] And was that the kind of er was it still all mainly military type of work that you, you were doing, even after the war? [Bill:] No erm part of it was military, or admiralty rather. Erm most of it was the er for commercial work. Erm it took some time you know through the mid fifties to run down the wartime contracts. Erm some firms needed about ten years er before the contract, the wartime contracts were eliminated. Er and fulfilled. Er but Brothers er took time to get over that and er but at, at the same time were using their sales representatives to go abroad and to gain work you know, for the commercial aspect of the company. And they were indeed successful. Er in as much as they maintained the, the labour force. Er at one time there was just over about a thousand people employed in Brothers. That was the total complement, including the. Erm at the time when I took er office as a shop steward, er there was approximately two hundred and fifty apprentices and er there would be about six hundred shop floor workers and the rest er were complement to the staff. The drawing office and the er... er dealt with the money side of the company. Finance. But erm the, the contracts that came in erm were in the main for the ship stabilizers. And erm Sir William who was the designer of it er had designed the stabilizer in such a manner that all sorts of er materials were required for it. There was... loads of levers and, and er er crossheads and, and different things that gave plenty of work to our colleagues er including the housing you know, which was a huge er er piece of er welded equipment you know, built into the side of the ship. And the slides that were then machined and put into it so that the, the, the, the arm of the, the stabilizer could slip into the water you know. Erm was all fitted into these er containers. And it gave lots and lots of work to our colleagues and you know, when, when I say that er I think I made a comment that at that time, er had made the, the, the comment about er the winds of change and that er you know we were never better off, well really the unemployment figures were so low at that time that it's to my mind you know, a truism. Er notwithstanding having said that, er we were always of the opinion in the shop stewards' committee that if a man left, we would then go after the employer to re-engage someone else you know, or engage someone er in his place. And the employer was quite responsive to that. And so it was no problem at that time. But as we gradually erm worked our way into the nineteen sixties, er there were new technologies er brought into focus in Brothers, and the design particularly in regard to the stabilizer, was one thing that er brought about a dramatic change er not only in regard to design but in production. The Swedes at one time, they designed er a stabilizer which was er a type hydraulic rather than a mechanical hydraulic er er stabilizer, and subsequently all the materials that I was talking about, the levers and you know, all the rest of it, were not required, and it shrunk the size of the thing er so low you know, that er the British manufacturers had to look, because the Swedes were then in the market er in a competitive way to take on Brothers or anybody else who were prepared to er produce them under licence. Er and the Italians at that time were producing them under licence from. So the management looked at the, the thing very critically and they, they designed a new stabilizer erm which did away with the whole housing, which did away with the cross er crossheads and the slides and it was so easily produced er that we were then seeking to, to sales representatives to go out and look for other work. So that created a problem and we then found that a number of people were leaving Brothers to seek their fortunes elsewhere because the work that they liked to work on and you know traditionally they'd been on it for years, er was no longer there and er subsequently there was a slip in the numbers employed. [Ken:] How did you feel about that yourself the, the way the machinery had changed er and your, your trade was obviously having to adapt to that? [Bill:] Well erm I took the view that er two things were happening. There were new forms of technology coming into existence then, one, we had moved away from the automatic er type of machinery to what they called er digital controlled and numerical controlled machines. Not computerized but digital controlled. Where you know, the readout on the lathes etcetera er were easily seen and er easily operated. Er there were new types of tools brought into being, er ceramic tools for example on the vertical boring mills. Erm they were used. Er [Ken:] I wonder if you could describe that in about er for the layman if you like. [Bill:] Well they, they had gone into the production of er steel er turning er in such a way that er they looked for the best possible tools er in order, one, that they could produce the item more cheaply as far as the employing class is concerned, they want to produce it as cheap as they can and probably sell it the dearest. Erm but this is more or less, indigenous within the engineering industry, there is even inherent within an engineering mind, and I'm not with the planners or the technical experts, but even in the ordinary lay engineer, he looks to be able to do the job more efficiently, with the materials that he has in hand er and possibly introduce a new type of tool if he can get the proper material, and likewise the employer was doing the same thing. Erm and so therefore er they, they knew tools that they had been using since the period of the war, erm were gradually being overtaken by the new types of ceramic tools. Er for example the ones that they fitted on the, the vertical boring mills, were round er in nature, bolted through the centre to a tool post and subsequently when they went into action, they were so hard you know, that they could outstrip the existing type of tip tool erm because the, the material itself stood up better to the cutting flow er er rather than the, the tip tool which was inclined to chip. Er and, and so therefore we were entering into a new phase of technology not only in regard to new types of machinery, but also to the tooling. And then accompanying that of course erm there was the introduction of the er work study personnel. The management er sought to change the type of incentive scheme that we were working on. Because of the new innovations that had been installed. And because also that it was er partly the, the directors' money that was being poured into it at that time, we knew all these things, and they were expecting a, a return back from it. Erm that er the er... management er agreed to introduce a work study system. Er now that was met with a great deal of er antipathy. When I say that er the existing bonus structure er although unrelated to time, was certainly related to the man's pay packet and it was given in the way of an advice note with each job, and a price attached to it. A price. So the man could calculate exactly what he was earning you know, hour by hour if not day by day and week by week. Erm so it was, it was a, it was a paradox. The money was removed and the new element of time on a job was applied, and er this wasn't done easily of course because when they introduced the work study consultants, erm we found it necessary, particularly the shop stewards found it necessary to have consultation with the management. One, to eliminate any feeling of antipathy er to the introduction of any new incentive scheme, but more so er to give confidence to our members that whatever happened, erm there would be a benefit. Because you know money-wise because we were not content to sit back and see er schemes being introduced that, which were going to act as a deterrent to er our members er being able to earn wages er on incentives and so therefore erm what happened was that we agreed that the consultants er head personnel manager would come down and talk to each group of people who were being put on to the incentive scheme, one, in order that he go over everything with them in regard to its application, and two, then answer any practical questions er where our members may find that there could be difficulties. Er one, in regard to how they would operate it and secondly in regard to what would be expected of them, perhaps if they were attached to one of the older type machines and not the new machines you see. Erm because new machines were costly and, and er you know, you're, we're talking in terms of a milling machine for example costing something like twenty five to thirty five thousand pounds. But the change wasn't radical, it took place over a period of er I would suggest er maybe about six or seven years. Until all the old type of machinery you know, was overtaken by the new. And so whilst we were conscious of the fact that erm management were pursuing this policy to introduce the new system, we were just as conscious that we were going to protect our members er and have prior consultation, and that's the operative and effective word as far as shop stewards are concerned, to have prior consultation, before anybody accepted going on to the scheme. Now the management agreed to that policy er and subsequently erm the, the main machine shop was the first er er department to go on to it. So the targets were set er and a new basis of working agreed to mutually with the management, on the understanding that er the existing piecework supplement, erm would be multiplied by three, and that meant that our colleagues were er able to earn something like er three and sixpence old money an hour, if indeed they met the target bonus. Erm on the basis that er we were, when we were setting the, the targets, the time was set by the work study personnel erm and then the operator was able to obtain a trial run on the time given er and if at the end of the work, he was satisfied that he had made the target bonus, or near enough, or if he was satisfied that, given a little extra opportunity to go back onto that job should it come back again in the near future, then he would, he would see clearly that he could make at least fifty percent er which was the target bonus, and probably more. And so after a while erm we found that, apart from one or two minor anomalies, er that our members were able to achieve round about forty seven, forty eight, forty nine percent. One or two instances that were favouring the fifty percent. Erm but, but the stewards were told that er er with all the changes that had been implemented, that our members weren't satisfied. And so erm we went up, I think it was about six months after it was introduced, and negotiated an increase on the bonus element. And er that added er to our members pay packet something like another fourpence an hour. And er they were quite happy about that. They were quite happy. [Ken:] do you remember the time though as being, you, you certainly imply that it was a, a time when there was a quite a bit of unrest perhaps at the complexity of the scheme, as much as anything else. It was quite a new thing er in itself er you know it's, you, like I say, you've implied that er there was at least some degree of unrest on the shop floor. [Bill:] Yes. Well one of the, you see, one of the strange things that happened at that time, traditionally engineers, and I think I said this in my previous statements to you, for example in where there was no bonus ever adhered to, er our members looked at their, the daily production er er routine, that any interference as far as time was concerned, by the management you know, would be an intrusion on their sacrificial rites, and therefore it wasn't tolerated. Erm they could have, to my way of thinking, have engaged in piecework or a reasonable incentive scheme, set with times and everything else, but er they didn't do that. Alternately, in Brothers, when I arrived there, there was an existing piecework structure implemented, although not everybody was on it. And that created a difference of opinion between certain of our members who were not in receipt of any incentive payment, as opposed to those who could clearly indulge in it and, and, and make a reasonable er er profit out of it. Erm when the work study... consultants came in, er we inquired as to one, whether their scheme was going to cover everybody because we were not satisfied that the existing scheme gave everybody the incentive that was required to keep people in harmony. And so we had discussions with them and I can tell you, you know, it was at least six months before the consultants ever made any specific move to introduce the system as such er because of our overtures to them, because of the fact that we asked regularly to meet them and to consult on various points. Er one mainly being the, the fact that we wanted an overall scheme to cover everybody, including, including a payment for the lowest paid labourer in the shop. That meant it went across the whole spectrum of the workforce. Ultimately we were given that assurance and er we were quite proud of the fact that, you know, the members had gone along with us on the proviso that we had got that principle you know, to establish. And being successful in that, we then went forward to seek its application. But er one of the paradoxical things that happened was that immediately men are faced with, for example, someone standing beside them with a stopwatch, [Ken:] I was going to ask you about that. How people [Bill:] that [Ken:] how people responded to that [Bill:] Yes. [Ken:] that kind of [Bill:] Yes. Well that created er a great feeling of ambiguity in the minds of our members, erm mainly I think due to the fact that some of our colleagues you know, may have been a bit er apprehensive. Er mainly because in the past they didn't have the proper equipment to do the work that they were engaged on anyway, and although their own minds would clearly tell them that they would identify the work with certain equipment you know, that was up to date and you know, would make life easier for them and be able to produce more, I think some of them er er their minds were overshadowed by the fact that er there was a degree of mistrust between them and the management, that they would ever get the proper equipment to do the job. However er during the course of our er dialogues with the management, er and I must say this that er they did introduce er whenever asked, new equipment, new tools, they did everything possible to make life a bit easier for our members er in that respect. And then it was clearly seen er that not only were the changes in the, the er financial er arrangements for the introduction of the bonus scheme, with the introduction of a further fourpence and hour, with the introduction of the time factor on the job, as opposed to them starting, we'll say, round about forty seven, forty eight, forty nine percent, the movement was then into the fifty percent bracket, fifty five percent. And as they went on, you know, it was gradually working up and so therefore the graph, each man's productivity you know, was rising. And er we were quite happy with that. The result was that other departments er particularly the fitters for example er who were still working on the old scheme, wanted to, they then wanted to come onto the scheme. And er that was with a great deal of persuasion er on the shop steward's part and argument with the management, and pushing the management to introduce it, er that we moved into the fitting departments. But er the management were, were clearly trying to identify the, the whole process in regard to the machine shops in particular first of all, so that when they did move into the fitting er departments, they would have all the materials there necessary to, to give our members the, the feeds you know, for, for producing the m er items. [Ken:] Erm from you from your experience in the, the negotiating of that, that kind of er deal and just from what you saw of it working in factories, er do you think that management quite explicitly sought to, to create some division or was the division that arose wh you're talking about the fitters being on a different scheme from the other members of the workforce? [Bill:] Well can I say that er if I might say so first of all, I think that the, the antipathy that existed for a period actually came more from the workshop, rather than the management. The management er clearly desired to implement the scheme er with the minimum amount of frustration er to anyone, although you've got to understand that as an engineer working a, a big milling machine for example, if someone comes along and said er, you know you could stand that job on its side different to what you've got it at the moment, and you could do two faces instead of one you know, by turning the table and you know, by use of various tools er decrease the time factor, there was the, it was a fear that our members may work themselves out of a job. And I was quite conscious of that. But er at that time there was plenty work coming in, erm there was, there was no need for us to be apprehensive, and so therefore we had to convince the management that in the best interests of everybody, having agreed that the scheme would go on across the whole spectrum of the workforce, was to move reasonably, you know, quickly through the various machine departments and introduce with a minimum amount of frustration. And we had to keep pushing them [LAUGHTER] all along []. It was an incentive I would say for the shop stewards. One, to protect the members' you know, interests in each department to see that they got the, a, a time limit you know, to go onto the scheme, that the consultation took place. So it was done in that manner and it was fairly reasonable er and eventually you know, everybody but everybody was, was on this scheme. [Ken:] Do you remember any specific instances of er people being particularly aggravated by the fact that there were these blokes on the shop floor suggesting this job might change, and timing jobs and that kind of thing? [Bill:] Oh yes, er [Ken:] Did people get aggravated by it? [Bill:] I would, I would have to be absolutely honest and that and er I wouldn't exclude myself from that particular er way of thinking because when they moved in, when you got a time for a job, erm for example there was one particular job that I was on erm and I thought that I was doing it reasonable accurately and rapidly, erm and they wanted to introduce a new fixture so that you know, I could do the whole series of faces on it. Erm and I could see what they were after you know, an engineer has in his mind the plan and how to go about the thing and, and get it all done in a one-off situation. So speaking personally, of course when the work study man comes along, and he's timing you lifting a spanner you know, to tighten a bolt, erm and things like this, er it's a strange feeling to have someone standing looking over your shoulder and I personally er didn't see any need for that. Er it would have been better had he perhaps said, well there's the time for the job, there's your card, there's all the operations listed for you, from one to sixteen or whatever it might be, and each one itemized you know, as to how long it might take. Have a go and I'll come back in an hour and a half and, well what the work study man wanted you see, was to define whether his assessments were reasonably correct or indeed absolutely correct you know, or whether they were too loose. Er and that the, the final analysis er in regard to time, was reasonable, because you've got to bear in mind that there was money attached to that, and if his figures are out, and your bonus effort could be increased by ten to fifteen or even twenty percent you know, then his time was considered by the management to be much too loose. But er yes there was a, there was er a change invoked that type of er scheme which er initially was felt by each individual er when they were work studied. But after a while, when they got a variety of jobs to do, they, they took off on their own initiative and in fact some of them er without even advising the, the planning department er introduced one or two minor innovations which made life easier for them in regard to the work study man's er schedule. And that's where engineering you know, knowledge, comes er to bear because an engineer looks for that, he looks for the easy, simplest you know er method of production er which gives him an effective er machining operation throughout the whole job. Er and to be able to pick it off the machine at the end of the day you know, as a first class, simple object at, at a competitive price. And, and that's how it operated. [Ken:] Do you think er work practices became any more flexible with these changes? Like did er er people begin to be asked to do different jobs whereas you described in the older days, you were very much sort of, pinned to one machine if you like? [Bill:] Yes. Well one of the variants that, that was applied, you see under the, under the old er er time workers' er arrangements where it was only the foreman who by visual contact you know with the amount of items produced at each machine could make any reasonable assessment in regard to the individual's effort. This was introduced in a more scientific way and subsequently erm times on machines can be measured. For instance if you want to turn an object on a lathe erm and you go from one end of a shaft to the other, no matter, supposing you do it ten times, erm the machine will take that cut in exactly the same time. You know it's a mathematical er er fact that it won't take any longer to go along. Er and, and having established the measurement of combined with the time, er people seemed to accept the fact that this was more you know, scientific. And er it was accepted, but erm the, the whole structure of the system was geared to efficiency. And through time, the establishment became very efficient. Not only in regard to the machine operators, but there was other things that entered into our discussion. For example timesheets, they were finally discarded and replaced by er a schedule which was a work study schedule applied to each job. There was a card which you received from the er clerk at the desk, they were introduced, the clerks were introduced in order to note everybody's time. Erm your time was made up, it was then applied to the sheet you know, and, and there was hardly any er personal allocation you know, of, of duty in regard to filling up the timesheets. So that was removed. Other major things such as er doing away with time consuming exercise such as travelling even to the store for tools. Erm the tools were made up in a kit and er every time there was a work study exercise done on a job, er the tools were all numbered and laid aside and registered for that particular item. They were then made a sign in the store, and if the job came up again, all you did was to go down the store, and it was a one-off exercise, instead of travelling back and forwards to get a particular tool, erm er that was all eliminated. And you had the whole kit. It was easy erm, so other, other things were brought into too such as drawings. Drawings were altered er instead of getting a whole sheet of a combined er er part of a, a steering gear or whatever it might have been, er they were all itemized and reduced to part pieces, and it was much easier to look, examine and find out what sizes were required than, you know, three dimensional er drawings. So it was, really everybody was brought into this. Er the only thing is that er it was the people on the workshop floor that were paid from it er rather than the er planning er personnel or indeed the drawing office. Who came in at a much later stage by the way, and presented a claim for the management you know, that they were now part of the, the whole scheme. [Ken:] Did you not find that er the work them became very sort of com compartmentalized if you like, very specific people were doing bits of jobs rather than a feeling that you were all part of a much larger thing? You know,i if you see what I'm getting at. [Bill:] Yes indeed er the there was no doubt about that. Er I was fully aware of the fact that er you know, some people say, particularly in the fitting departments where experience had taught the fitters, having been given a free hand, er that they accumulated all the parts for a job, or even part of the job, they did certain assemblies you know, until they got all the part pieces assembled ready to combine it into the main unit, erm that experience er was being overtaken by an introduction of smaller units being assembled you know, bit by bit as they were being produced in the machine shop. And this created a, a, a degree of efficiency. Er there's no doubt in my mind that it was efficient erm and it was, it was controlling time. [Ken:] But it must have changed the, the [Bill:] And [Ken:] the atmosphere of the job quite, quite considerably [Bill:] and [Ken:] you know. [Bill:] Yes er although let me say this, that er there were many things which the management were required to do, for example, when we, when we went to our monthly meetings with them, we established monthly meetings with the management, one, in order to try and control from our side, er the, to have some control on the production er side of things. One, in order that the old type of arrangement you know, would no longer prevail, and that subsequently if people were going to have assemblies, part assemblies before they assembled the whole unit, then whole areas would have to be cleared, new benches would have to be built, the departments would have to be totally gone through you know, and all the rubbish cleared out and, and access and egress you know, to every department to make life easier for everybody. Er and so, to our credit er the management did this. It took time, it took time, it took a period of years till they got it finalized but when we got it finalized, we had for example er welding areas, in which no one was allowed in unless they were a welder you know. Or were given permission to go in. And the fitters worked happily in their particular section and they had everything at their disposals you know, more or less er er in the one unit. We had the machine shops divided into the main er machine shop and the other sections. So that it was much more efficient and, and pathways and er alleyways were all cleared and lined and kept clear. All the er all the moulds and the part pieces were all kept, you know, in a safe position behind the lines so that the it was easy for people to walk up and down without fear of accident. And so we were complimented by some of our colleagues on the shop floor you know, that, what a difference is on the place. You know and that this is what they were saying. [Ken:] Mm. It seems like quite a, a radical sort of transformation of the whole work environment. [Bill:] Well radical in the sense that er not withstanding it took, it took time. Er but radical certainly as compared to how things operated before, when you went into the fitting shop, you know, you could, you could only walk a few feet [Ken:] Mm. [Bill:] before you were er trying to jump over cables and [Ken:] Mhm. [Bill:] and old plates and nuts and bolts and all sorts of things. Whereas the men, the men were taught to be more tidy erm although let me say this that er if you asked Jimmy who was an old established fitter in Brothers, where you would find a certain item, you know, in the fitting department, er he could go and get it, erm but er when the new system was invoked er everybody knew that they were stored either you know to the north of the department or to the south or whatever. Everybody had an idea where they were. Yeah. [Ken:] Erm maybe you could describe how er I mean, was it a big open plan type er set up? I mean you've described it there was over a thousand employees er and a large operation as well? [Bill:] Yes. Well there was no division between the, the, well if I might say so, when the there was a fire took place in Brothers in the early sixties and it was an awful unfortunate thing. Although, perhaps it was fortunate in one sense that er it completely destroyed the main machine shop and er it, it all happened over a period of about twenty to twenty five minutes. room. [Ken:] Can you remember [Bill:] I remember er the effects of er working in the department er after the fire. Erm we were asked by the managing director er a man called W P whom I had a great deal of respect for, because he was a, he was a design engineer by trade and, and craft. And there wasn't much that Willy didn't know about the business. But apart from that he, he was a, he was er humorous too by nature and er he was, he was quite free in as much as if you made an approach to him, and he understood that you weren't there just for fun, he would set up a meeting and discuss it with you, er and go into details and at the same time, give you an answer at the earliest possible moment. But after the fire er Willy er... requested you know that er the men should carry on working and, and we gave him our assurance that we would do our utmost you know, to keep the place er going. Er but having said that er h his... it was, it was terrible. The, for example, where I worked I had to bale out you know in the morning about thirty pails of water, you know before I could even see my footboard. And these were the type of conditions that our members worked in, whilst at the same time the management provided plastic roofing you know, but it wasn't efficient and it was cold and bitterly cold if I might say so erm for a long period. But er to their credit er they got the contractors in and they commenced by putting up new pillars and new roofing structures and it took them about twelve months I think to actually build a new machine shop. [Ken:] But during this twelve months you were still actually working? [Bill:] We were still working there. Er but er and, and the they negotiated er a payment er for working in these er cold conditions for the men who were in the machine shop. But er at, prior to the fire there was, there was a division between what they called the, the catapult shop, er the machine shop and the fitting shop. So the new planners thought well why waste all this available space between the various shops? We can, we can put it all under one roof, and the d the design came out er good erm so that you could walk from the end of the, the machine shop was extended and you could walk from there into the catapult shop directly, or straight into the er fitting base, and thence down onto the welding sections. Erm and they, they installed heating equipment er which our members accepted with a great deal of delight. [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Erm because hitherto it was a very cold shop especially in the winter time when it was snowing you know. Er I don't know if you've experience of steel but when you feel the handles of a, a lathe first thing in a morning it's like lifting pieces of ice and er the heating arrangement took about four hours before it built up you know, to a reasonable working degree. Whereas the, the heaters that were installed went on thermostatically controlled and er when you went in the morning, the place was nice and warm and you could apply yourself to work right away. [Ken:] So when all these changes were going, going on with the, the machinery, the, the bonus system etcetera etcetera you, you think there were other facilities arose around about the same time which made the work environment still more er still better if you like? [Bill:] Well the er the new building erm was certainly er safer. Erm there were new passageways, erm the management er er applied their thoughts to it and altered the, the layout and certain machines were, were put to one side of the machine shop and, and milling machines to the other side you know. Er and it looked more regulated. Er and the result was that the heavy casting you know, didn't have to travel... [break in recording] the system had to be monitored correctly, you had to see that fair play er was the order of the day both in respect of the member and indeed the management to try and reach a er an agreement. Er but in order to introduce reasonable facilities for shop stewards, we had to make approaches to the management over a period of time. For instance we had no place to keep our er records, we had er minute books er we used to receive minutes from the management for example, after our monthly meeting with them, er and they were more or less dictated by the er personnel department, who were present at the meeting. Er and we shared the common objective that these minutes would have to be scrutinized purposefully because if there was any element er in any of the minutes that we didn't disagree with, then we would point it out to the management and had a redraft and have a signed redraft er by the secretary and the convenor, which meant that er at least we were all talking with a common voice. Er we instigated that procedure and then we went on to try and extend the facilities for shop stewards to be able to take care of the er problems arising out of the incentive scheme. Now it took several years for er the new incentive scheme to be introduced throughout the whole of the works and I think during my last discussion you know, I did indicate that the fitters for example, you know, were about the last group to go on. Er and by this time you had several departments, machine departments you know, involved in the process. And er that had to be regulated, regulated as far as fairness and response to er any claim that our members may make in respect of fairness you know, er and it, to enable them to reach the target bonus. It might have been a question of time, it may have been a question of tooling, it may have been a question of instruments, it may have been a question of materials, raw materials, or a compilation of all of these things. Er or indeed you know, the issue er of a job which hadn't been done on a particular machine er but was timed on another one. There was a whole host of things that had to be monitored by the stewards er on a daily basis. But erm happily erm we managed to deal with the matters primarily because management agreed that we would have a meeting on a Monday and a meeting on a Thursday, both held in the afternoon, in the last hour of the working day. Now what happened, and it was a good procedure because what happened was that if anyone say on a Friday had found himself in a difficult situation, we would then discuss it on the Monday afternoon, er bearing in mind that he had taken it to the foreman and had got no response from the foreman, we could discuss it on a Monday afternoon, the convenor and the secretary would deal with it the following day, and in all probability, without having recourse to take it any further, reply to the man that the matter had been resolved and, and to his liking. Or alternately if it wasn't then we would discuss it again on the Thursday and if it was a failure to agree situation, then we just registered failure to agree with the management. And we kept these things minuted in a minute book. Er which was kept in our custody. [Ken:] So were, were management quite flexible in that, in that they, you described they allowed, stewards monitored the, the incentive scheme, er they had two weekly meetings, were management quite flexible in that they gave you time off or er whatever? [Bill:] Well er in the early days, erm there were occasions where erm if I may say so, that, that just to divert for a moment, the scheme had to have supervision, and there was an increase in the staff, the number of foremen and chargehands increased. Primarily because the foremen had to regulate their own department as far as er input and output was concerned. They had to regulate the er flow of materials, from the store to the individuals concerned. Erm and it became too much for them because people were working more efficient, and therefore there was a an increase in the productivity level, and so they had to increase the number of foremen and chargehands, which wasn't a bad thing because it was always our members that got made up to these respective er positions. Sometimes you lost a shop steward erm notwithstanding sometimes if the work study department needed a er an extra man er you would lose a shop steward. Mainly because the stewards had become involved in the incentive er scheme working er and had the best idea you know of how to set times and tooling and everything else. [Ken:] That's another interesting point that actually, you're saying there that shop stewards were lost er became foremen, chargehands and whatever. Did you ever have the feeling that you were almost more a part of management that you were a representative of the workforce? [Bill:] Well I never took that er er as a stance erm bearing in mind that er we were there as the bulwarks to defend the interests of the membership in general. It would have been rather a dangerous step to take you know, to con even consider er that. Although, from time to time, some of our colleagues on the shop floor who ran into difficulties you know, er sometimes described you as a tool of management, er which was to say the least you know, er entirely untrue. Erm and once they got the problem resolved, you know, then they became different people. Er and er as I say,the it was a, it was a line that we could never take objectively. You could be you could be lured into a position where if, if the management had you by the tails, thinking along the same line, then you could never be an efficient, you know, negotiator. And I've got to say this, in some cases I had additional time as a shop steward and a convenor, to spend on major problems er affecting the incentive scheme. Er and I took the time at my own risk, took the time at my own risk er primarily because of that very fact that you were there to support the interests of your members and no one else, no one else. And er happily we went along in that situation and I've got to say this er I had shop stewards who even if they were new shop stewards coming into the committee, weren't long in developing the same train of thought as ourselves and, and you know we dealt with things in such a manner but er we were efficient just as efficient, you know, as our members were on the production line, and perhaps a little more efficient than the management in determining times. Because we knew the speeds you know, and er the working of the machinery, the tools and equipment that were necessary to do the jobs, the, the application of er instrumentation you know, er what kind of materials ought to be used, er and, and we went into all that you know, in, in regard to setting up new times. [Ken:] Again you, you never felt that you were, because you were doing that, you never had the feeling that perhaps you were becoming too much a part of management rather than er simply representing work or did you simply see it as part of your, your job to look after the incentive scheme in that way because it did er that was a part of representing the workforce? [Bill:] Yes indeed er because we had an agreement and er w the men that I worked beside were quite prepared to honour an agreement once it was established. And it was to their credit that they accepted the new er system er and the new times. Sometimes new tooling and equipment er and as I said before, a craftsman always looks to see if he can do a particular job better, if not somewhat easier er than hitherto. And with the help of all these er er pieces of equipment er we found in general that we were reaching a new standard of production, where we were increasing it er and we were able to bargain more strongly and more favourably on behalf of our members. And as each year went along, erm we were determined as a committee erm that we would lay claims, natural justifiable claims to the employer to increase the remuneration in regard to the incentive scheme. And it was done successfully in Brothers, I've got to say that. And to the management's credit, they did respond. [Ken:] Talking of the management, er how do you think their attitude changed going through your experience er of negotiation, over the years you were at? [Bill:] Well I would say that er there was a dramatic change er in the management's er er manner of dealing with things. We were, hitherto erm if a person had a problem regarding er his piecework, er it may never have been er er argued to the point where, when the new system came in we were educated you know to the extent where we knew how to apply ourselves to the argument. Erm we knew that there was a certain area of profitability attached to the er scheme itself, which the management were happy to receive. Now having said that, then we had every entitlement to argue the case you know, on a mutually agreed basis, I E to get the management to recognize that there was a fulfilment required from them to reach a mutual agreement with the individual. Or i a group of individuals if it was necessary. Er in order that the time could remain set at that without any departing to you know, er feelings of mistrust or anything else. And we built that, a feeling of trust, rather than you know, apprehension or misapprehension er in the minds of people who were engaged on the previous scheme. [Ken:] Do you think, speaking personally, that er management felt quite comfortable over the years, er more comfortable with er being round a table with stewards? [Bill:] Yes er I think that er notwithstanding the fact that we only spoke about the er incentive scheme on occasions, we reserved our er judgment as to when we would apply to the management to discuss certain matters. Matters arising through the procedure from any individual or any group of individuals on the shop floor, was dealt with primarily and respectfully so in regard to the individual making an approach to the foreman, if no settlement was reached then, it was referred to the shop steward in that department, if he couldn't settle it along with the member with the foreman, then he could report it to the er shop stewards committee through the auspices of the secretary or the convenor. We would then discuss it and take action. That procedure became operative so effectively that I think the management subsequently realized that unless they had shop stewards who were capable of discussing the matter intently you know, and objectively, then they were on a loser, because they then stood to lose more productivity than hitherto. So there was the swings and roundabouts where had they not recognized and had come along with us, to the extent that we thought we could do our, a sharing objective er and it brought them out of the, the attitude that was hitherto adopted where well management really couldn't care very much you know, if a man did suffer the loss of er five pound a week or whatever you know, and, and once it was made clear to him that there was no further er er use of the procedure and he could take it through his district you know, if he liked, the man didn't, well on exceptional cases perhaps they may have taken a case through, but er in the majority of cases the man just accepted it, and made up his losses er er later on. But that was on a slower basis than, than he could make it up under the new scheme. Under the new scheme, a man er with a little extra effort could afford to offset and compensate his own er er earnings. But the management did respond and er I think it was just because of the sheer pressure of the shop stewards er making continuous overtures to them on each and every problem that came up, and they were not going to be set aside er with a simple answer er that wouldn't satisfy a member. We made sure that er on each occasion er we reached a figure or a set of figures that would be mutually acceptable to ask the colleague or colleagues and, and then it was registered in the minutes as a, so we could refer back to er any cases er that were similar and that then made life easier for the shop stewards er who may have had a recurrence of the same problem. [Ken:] Well it sounds like the procedures were quite formal, quite highly formal. [Bill:] Well they were highly formal, they, and I wouldn't have had them any other way. Because had we had them any other way, you may have fallen into the dilemma as you've suggested, that the shop stewards may have become part of the management. Erm in no way were we ever going to consider ourselves part of management. Had we done that er you would have er you would have been in queer street. Er and in fact er I would say that had you become recognized as part of management, our members wouldn't have tolerated you as a shop steward. [Ken:] Thinking about things like er the Donovan Commission in nineteen sixty eight, did that in any way have any influence, I mean that looked quite closely at er the state of local bargaining. Did that in any way influence you as a convenor? [Bill:] Well I think that er er as I said previously, that erm the engineering industry erm for many years, er was under the influence of national wage negotiations. Erm in the nineteen fifties and right up until I became a full time official, erm there was generated an opinion that if companies were financially well off, due to the effort of the employees, then there was some formal entitlement for employees in these particular undertakings, to put forward a separate claim at domestic level, to, to enhance their pay. And erm well this became more or less the policy of the union. And notwithstanding the, the national minimum time rates were still negotiated and even today, erm our members er in general er helped themselves er not only through the field of increased productivity, but simply through strength of argument. Er to force the employer into a frame of mind that er well there was a bargaining unit there. And er I don't think that Donovan did anything other than to enhance that. Er and to give the shop stewards er a greater degree of recognition [Ken:] Again it was a formalization of procedures wasn't it? A lot of the recommendations [Bill:] That's right. Exactly so. Exactly so Ken. Er whereby the procedures er at national level, you see the procedures at national level er are quite explicit that er in the national handbook, any matter arising whereby the tools or the materials or the conditions attached to certain jobs, are offered, then our members have the right er to take the matter up with the management. Now that applies to any matter arising, and subsequently I think that er the Donovan Report more or less reinforced er that particular er er procedure, although it had been written into our national agreement er as far back as I can remember. And er, but I felt and I feel looking back on that particular er decade between nineteen sixty and nineteen seventy, that the work which the shop steward's movement did er even in a preliminary way, prior to the Donovan Report coming out, was based on reason and fair play. Many companies er were making fabulous profits and what reason was there to prevent a good shop stewards' committee from going in to try and enhance their members conditions? And after all you know, from all labour there is profit. And our members share that. I've not, there's a conviction that er if management were making money, then why couldn't they get a reasonable increase in pay. Now we did go through dramatic exercises in the nineteen sixties, erm where we entered into a three year agreement er on wages settlement at national level. Erm the preponderance of our members throughout the length and breadth of the country, er initially was not to accept three year package deals. Er and the only reason that I thought they may have been favourable, would have been based on the principle of fair play, but then erm when you think of er companies who are making profits from year to year which were in excess of the previous years, then by the time three years expired, our members could have been in a loss situation, if indeed they hadn't gone forward and argued the case at domestic level. Now within the national settlements at that time, there was always provision left that if our members erm were in receipt of pay which was more than the national minimum time rate, then that would satisfy the terms of the agreement.. Having said that there was always another clause which said that er there would be nothing to prevent our members from bargaining at domestic level. And that was always inherent in our minds you know, as shop stewards. It was a fundamental principle that we never er er er put aside, because we felt that er well as I say if, if a company was being profitable, there was every reason why we should go in and increase our members' er er standard of living. [Ken:] Do you have any recollections of any particular disputes and maybe an answer that you could possibly sort of, make a few comments on whether you felt the the procedures were worked out so finely that they in fact prevented disputes because they were so long and drawn out perhaps or er it took the fire out of disputes if you like? [Bill:] I think that er one of the things that we had to examine at national level er and this was done erm after I became a full time officer, erm there'd usually be a procedure in the national agreement er whereby first of all if we registered failure to agree at domestic level, erm with the management, the next stage was to draw in the district secretary. Er if the district secretary failed to agree, then it was referred to the divisional officer. At that stage the divisional officer may have taken it away from the domestic scene, and er put it through to Glasgow if it was the, if the employer was a member of the employers' association, he would then take it to local conference. Now local conference usually was held as quickly as possible erm but when you went to local conference as an official, you were then faced with obviously the employer who was concerned in the case, an independent chairman of the employers, but a battery of other members of the employers' association who were unattached to the actual claim itself. And you discussed it with that body of er people at local conference. If you eventually failed to agree at that level, then you would have to register failure to agree as you did in all other cases you know, leading up to that stage. And indicate to the employers that you were then transferring the matter to central conference. Now central conference, by the time you went through all the stages of procedure it may take you ei possibly six to nine months, in some cases, sometimes it was held earlier. But erm it could take that length of time. Erm I remember taking two cases when the procedure was still invoked and it was a company in Edinburgh, it was as, as a matter of fact. And on both occasion we were successful, but there were other people there from different parts of the country, who were not successful. And subsequently after a long period of time, the opinions of our members generally was that we should change the, the procedure. And once the divisional organizer was in, that would be the terminating point of or the end of the procedure as such. So there would be no local conference neither would there be any central conference, and that's how it prevailed after the changes were invoked by the rule revision. Erm I'm not so sure that in some cases er it, it's to our members benefit. Obviously erm people may argue the case with me. Er but er in my own opinion, I think that er employers were more or less forced, in the same way as we were, to recognize that they had a problem on their hands. And the longer they dealt with it, the more aggravated our members could become on a shop floor, or that they could have additional disputes you know, on their hands, because of the fact that the dispute or the, the problem had lasted so long. [Ken:] So you don't necessarily believe that protracted negotiation er necessarily takes the heat out of a dispute, in fact it may worsen it? [Bill:] It could worsen it. On the other hand erm if you're looking at, obviously sometimes our members felt that there was a benefit, at least the employer wasn't getting, wasn't getting off the hook as far as the matter was concerned, the matter arising was concerned, and therefore he was left with a problem just the same as we were. And therefore in the interim period things had to be you know, you had to treat people fairly in order not to let them be of the belief er that going to er central conference was just an exercise. Because you know both parties were there to make sure that er there was going to be a mutual agreement or it may in some instances be referred back to domestic level for resolution, or alternately, the employers just said, no and that, that was the end of it at that stage. And at that stage, our members were then at the s at the point where they could take industrial action, if they so desired. After notifying the executive council. [Ken:] Thinking back to your time on the stewards' committee, did that situation arise er very commonly, very regularly? Er and what was your sort of feeling at that time er about taking such as unofficial action for example? [Bill:] Well er I was never of the opinion that we should be taking unofficial action. Erm I always thought, as did most of our stewards, when I say most of out stewards, there was always the occasional steward that felt er the desire you know, was, was justified, that the matter should be dealt with now, and because the management didn't respond effectively, then we should walk out the door. Erm well that's easy. It's easy and it would have been easy for me to get up on a platform or to go into the department and say, look lads, you know, we feel that you're justified in walking out the door. But there's a procedure and the procedure, our stewards recognized that the procedure was there to be effectively operated and if words can resolve a problem, and that's how we became trained in the situation affecting all our members. Erm if words can resolve the problem, then at the end of the day, there's no need for a man or a body of men to lose money. And we did that effectively. And that's why I'm saying that, leading up to the Donovan Report and because I was caught up in a situation along with my colleagues, that we were changing a system er and you know, a new incentive scheme, that we were increasing production. With all the oscillation that was involved in that er shop stewards taking cases up, the shop stewards discussing it with the management, the management's involvement, the management's attitude becoming gradually, not weakened but er inured to the stewards' fundamental logical claims on behalf of their members, made it easier you know, and progress was, was being noted that, and earnings were rising, earnings were rising. And er it was, it was acceptable by our members in general, that we were achieving the aims and objective of the basis of the whole incentive scheme you know, notwithstanding a lot of other things that was accompanied by, because we could [LAUGHTER] we could then say to the management on most occasions, well we could do with something here that would help health and safety. You know, if we thought that there was a need for new footboar boards or anything like that, it was no problem, no problem. It was just a question of time. And the less of time that it took, the better. But we got, we got the things done in that respect. [Ken:] Again taking you back to when you were a steward, erm what do you recall your relations personally and the relations generally er between the stewards and the full timers, the officials of the union? [Bill:] Well erm I've got to say this, that er as a shop steward, the record that I inherited er was one of very little confrontation between the employer and the union as far as union officials are concerned. And in twelve years as an experienced shop steward, I can only recall having a full time officer in I think on three occasions. And as I say, the more competent the stewards' committee became, the less frequent that it was necessary to have the sh the full time officers in. Er if I may say so, erm it was early in our career that er in my career that er along with the shop stewards, we disagreed in principle with the management on an annual wage increase. Er and I think it was about nineteen sixty two or thereabouts. And er I was determined that er we wouldn't lose hold of this claim because it was a good claim, it was a logical claim, it was one that could be answered by the management and could be er er put into effect without any delay in time. There was a slight stubbornness on part of the management, simply because I think they were not, at that stage, inured to the shop steward's effective way of dealing with things. They wanted to push in the incentive scheme throughout the shop and they were busily engaged in doing that, and were rather blinded you know, to the claims that were coming through. And so to try and bring them to heel, er we referred the matter to the district. The district committee, the A G E W district committee, er recognized that it was something that er was a confederation exercise because it covered all aspects of the workforce, and therefore you had er engineers and, and the sheet metal workers and electricians and pattern makers, everybody within the confed in Brothers was affected by it. So we referred it to the confed and er we had the officers down and the matter was resolved and we got our increase and it was acceptable by everybody. Erm I think that was the only occasion that we had difficulty in respect of a wages claim. What we did have difficulty was er with an odd occasion where a man was on the verge of being dismissed. When I say that, he was sent up the road on suspension er with the intention of management that they would look into the case and you know, possibly dismiss. And on this particular occasion it was a man who was engaged t on Admiralty work of a very er significant nature. Er fine, fine limits in the bores of the object er piece of work that he was doing. And a slight slip you know, had taken him half a thou over the bore. Now what was required then was that although the job was in a rush, the management had to telephone down to the Admiralty in Bath to get the appropriate sanction you know, to, to accept the cylinder with the er bigger gauge bore. Erm and we're talking about half a thousandth of an inch, and for that you know, the man, but when I investigated the case, the man had been working on these things for about three or four weeks. Erm his brain when you're talking about human endeavour and craft skill you know, to enable you to get to that stage of, of er er fine working, erm takes a lot of intensive you know, er er attitude. And the man had made a slight slip, and for that he was being penalized. And we, we just stood aside from that and said to the employer, look here, if you don't bring him back on Monday, erm I'm afraid there'll be nobody here tomorrow right. Er and the management equally sort of stood back and said, well if that's your attitude, er you can do what you like. So er that was a telephone call to the divisional officer, who was available at the moment and who came down and discussed it with the employer and notwithstanding that, in the afternoon I had given the management one hour to resolve the problem otherwise there was going to be a major walkout. And happily we got resolved, happily we got it resolved. Erm there are days, occasions that could have sparked off major confrontation with the trade unions binding, the members binding themselves together to protect the interests of one of their colleagues. And that's what the trade unionism is all about. You know, we don't stand back idly and see one man penalized. Er and therefore when it got round the workshop what had happened and why he had been er suspended you know, initially the ire of our members rose and subsequently er the place just ground to a halt and there was a meeting and therefore we put the point to the management that er if they didn't really in a reasonable manner, then we were going. But we resolved it and er happily the divisional organizer resolved it er I would say in about twenty minutes when he came down. But it was with the pressure of the membership behind him that did it. [Ken:] Were the, the stewards formally involved in disciplinary procedure? [Bill:] Erm we didn't have what was known nowadays as a formal disciplinary procedure. Erm disciplinary procedures are now written into agreements with the unions. Erm but in these days erm I think that managements were in the main er fairly well off as far as employees' attitudes were concerned. Employees' attitudes er were fairly stable, fairly stable and some of the work that was done was so highly skilled er that it needed a craftsman's experience to be able to get to that stage of being able to turn a job you know, to very fine limits, or to grind an objective to absolutely no limits, or to, to assemble a job with all the skill and the know-how that had been built up over his twenty five or thirty years' experience you know, along with his colleagues. Erm and so therefore most people were busily engaged all of the eight hour day. And erm it was to the management's credit that we didn't need to invoke any er disciplinary procedure as such. Although it was always recognized that er there were limits to which a person could go. [Ken:] I was interested in you talking there about you know, that one, that particular case whereby one bloke was threatened with dismissal and very rapidly the way you describe it, the men came back with a threat of strike action. I mean did you, do you think that that kind of feeling that kind of solidarity spread beyond er if there was any news filtering through about another engineering factory in dispute or whatever? What sort of feeling was there about that kind of [Bill:] Yes I think, I think in general, er it, it was, it was occasionally erm heard of in other undertakings where this happened. Erm [Ken:] But I'm thinking about di er disputes in general though not just disciplinary disputes. [Bill:] Yes. Yes. Well disputes in general of course, er in different undertakings, there was a different attitude. Erm for instance in the dockyards, erm where conditions weren't broadly the same as was prevalent for example say, in Brothers or or. Erm you're talking about people working outside in elements er you know, natural elements such as might be brought to bear in the month of January or February. Er and er a similar incident took place for example. Er there would be a walkout, there would be a wa there would be no long discussion of it. There would be simply a walkout and the men would stay out until management either conceded to listen to one of their representatives and resolved the matter then and there. [Ken:] What I'm driving at is, did in your, in the time you were there ever the, the workers ever get into a situation where they wanted to come out in support of another dispute in another place of work? [Bill:] No. Erm not really because, well when I say that, erm generally speaking there was this er surge towards domestic types of agreements which tended to isolate erm district action. At one time for example, you see, there used to be an Edinburgh district rate way back in history. And managements usually conformed to its application. If for example the full time officers er negotiated with you know, for a district rate, erm Brothers and, and, and er er or whoever would concede that district rate. But erm, and you could always refer to it in your dialogue with them if you had a claim to make, er that they were only paying the district rate. On the other hand, various districts had differential rates, and those who had above yours, you normally quoted. And erm you could use that in your, your dialogue with the management. So there was always that tendency in our members minds you know to refer to various districts and er earlier in my submissions I did say that there was a disparity in earnings, especially between the Scotland and England er to, to something like seven percent if not even more than that in certain undertakings. So you were always, you were always faced with this er coming from the membership you know, that we were always like the cow's tail you know, we'll always be behind. Er although erm basically speaking you were normally talking about basic rates rather than earnings. And if you quoted the earnings as opposed to some of these undertakings or districts, erm then there was a wide gap you know er which we felt the benefit of rather than the reverse.

[Malcolm:] This is a conversation with Mr Swinton in Galashiels. Mr is seventy two. Right Mr. [Swinton:] Well er I think some of my earliest memories are er dating to the First World War time when I was a boy and we lived in Street which er during the war, we made a shift to which was really the opposite side of the street. [Malcolm:] Yeah. [Swinton:] It was a peculiar street because Street was on a higher level and at one time, the dam which must have been open, now the dam when I mention the dam, it's the mill lead, but known to everybody in Galashiels as the dam. And it runs through the town and was the means of driving the waterwheels in the old days in the factories. And er this divided this street into two but at probably a number of years before, it had been tunnelled in and the top part of the street was called Street and there, there was a slight hill run down to. Now my father had the garage in. It was er he had had it since my grandfather had had the same place as a blacksmith's shop and then my father followed on with the garage with cycles first of all, and then when the motor trade came in, he started in motors repairing. Motor repairing. [Malcolm:] Had the garage been a, a erm a stable at one time? Was it, did, did he have stabling or for coaches? [Swinton:] No. I think it, like in Galashiels there seemed to be a lot of rows of one storey cottages at one time in that part. And at a later date, part of them had been, another storey had put on to them. Er but at that time this, this, the blacksmith's shop was really made in a, a one storey cottage. Then the gardens were befind behind the front row and then there would be another row of cottages behind that again. Now as the garage grew, the, the blacksmith's shop was, it still remained in the same place but the remainder of the cottages were made into the garage, and the garden ground in between was filled in between with sheds with corrugated iron roofs. And it made a long garage. A deep garage. And then in these days there were pits for going underneath the cars er dug into the ground so as you could get underneath the cars. There were no lifts lifting the cars up at that time. [Malcolm:] What year did your fathers er cy wh it was really a bicycle shop that he had but i [Swinton:] Yes. [Malcolm:] erm did he tr er make it into a garage? [Swinton:] I should think round about nineteen hundred or nineteen hundred and one or two som it was [Malcolm:] Was that the first in Gala? [Swinton:] Er no. There had been a shop in Street I which is still there but it's been used for other things now. But they were the first people to sell a motor car in Galashiels. They called them James. And er they had sold a car in eighteen ninety eight I think it was. The first motor car in Galashiels. And er that was before registration of cars. I can't find out what make of car it would be, but it would probably be a, a French or German car. And it was sold to a wealthy manufacturer. Well a, a mill owner, the owner of the skin works in Galashiels, a Mr. And this er was the first car in Galashiels. But we came into it about after nineteen hundred I should say. We bought an engine in Edinburgh, a gas engine, run off the town's gas to drive the machinery we had. Er we also did general engineering because my father was an engineer er and my grandfather was a blacksmith, my father was an engineer. The machinery of course was driven by the gas engine first of all. In later years that, it was driven by an electric motor. But the shafting, of course it was driven off the shafting and we had l lathes and drilling machines. And an ideal little workshop for anybody doing work as they did in the early days, most of the components of a motor car had to made. Labour was cheap of course, time was no [LAUGHTER] object in these days []. And of course er when an article became, when you needed an article or something broke down in the car and you needed to mmake something up on the lathe o it was made on the premises. Later on of course the change in the trade, components were readily got as cars became more popular. And er there were not so many i in the older days every car was an individual thing. But in the later days when they made mass production was coming in, the components for them, it was easier to buy a component and fit it than to, to make up a, a piece in your own workshop. But er I w I would think, although it's before my time, I would think that er of what I've heard my father talking about these early days, there was great enthusiasm for motorcycles and of course some of the early registered numbers you'll find that there's many of them were motorcycles, the young men of the town who had probably been cyclists, quite a number of them er took up this motorcycling and they made their own motorcycles so were buying either kits and er even manufacturing the tanks and these things themselves. And our er workshop was open for and they got every assistance and every help from my father in these days. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] They these when I remember the garage, it was a series of er lock up garages in the front, with a central one opening right through to the back. And er by that time the w the horse shoeing has gone out. My father had first er he had, him being an engineer, and had been working in Glasgow after his er having served his apprenticeship at Amos the, it was the thing to go to Glasgow in these days which was the centre of all engineering activity, and er to gain experience he went to Glasgow. And er also many engineers when they were out their time, they went to Glasgow and for a few years, he, everybody who went from Galashiels, word got through to him and he met them at the station and got them settled in their digs in Glasgow. And er [Malcolm:] Would, this would be about the turn of the century? [Swinton:] It would be about before, it would be eighteen ninety seven I should think. When my grandfather died in er just about that year. Er eighteen ninety seven he died. And er i he that, my father came back to run the business for my grandmother. And er later on he took it into his own name you see. But er his erm... father h was the blacksmith and he had been born away up, and er he came to Ga he came to serve his time in a blacksmith's shop at and er [Malcolm:] The one that's still there? [Swinton:] Still there today, aye. It's still there in, in today. He came to serve his time in, he came from a place they called Green, which was a track between the hills away up. And er it was probably where the drovers came through, it's a drove road and I, I haven't been quite able to find out what he di I think he would be a shepherd probably. And my grandf yeah my great grandfather [Malcolm:] This is your grandfather's father, your great grandfather. Mm. [Swinton:] And he died in eighteen forty eight when my grandfather would be about probably eight year or nine year old I think. Er he, the family, must have came at a later date into Galashiels. Of course Galashiels in, in, at that period was the place for everybody to come to. Because the mills were thriving and you would come to Galashiels and get a job right away. But first of all he served his time in the smithy at and he met his wife, my grandmother in which was quite, you can quite imagine, it was just a walk up over the hills and er he met her in and er they were married. She had been born in Edinburgh but only mad chance because I think that the family were only there a short time. They belonged and they had to come back to. And they were shoemakers. And er their name was. Er there's none of them left now except an old M Mrs in who is over a hundred. And she's the last of the family. In the borders, there's some in, in England but er that, that family has died out in the borders. Er mostly anyway there is a, a relative I believe er in the town but er my... grandfather after he had served his time at smithy, got a, a job in Galashiels in one of the big factories, which was er was the name of the manufacturers there. It was one of the big mills and er there's still parts of it yet, in use, one of the high buildings is still there. And er he was there for quite a number of years and then went to just for a few years, and came back to Galashiels to work with the same firm and then he started business on his own. He, I say, in these days, blacksmiths made bicycles. And we have a bicycle which he made in the year eighteen seventy, that was before he had started business on his own and he had erm made it for a young solicitor in Galashiels and I believe it was used in a race from Galashiels from Place in Galashiels to the. Where five of these boneshakers or velocipedes took part. And er this bicycle well it would go out of fashion and was put in a, a loft in one of the, it must have changed hands from Mr whom it was made for. Er it er w was found in a loft in Mill about the year nineteen hundred. And they were going to throw it on the scrap heap but somebody in the mill the said, that was the bicycle that Adam had made. And we got it back into the family and it's been with us ever since. During all our alterations I've seen it in the old garage away up in a loft and I've seen it put out in the back yard in the rain, and I've always saved it and it's there today. And er after er my grandfather made that bike, after he started business on his own, he had, well the next thing came in was the penny farthing bicycle. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] And of course blacksmiths still worked on the penny farthing bicycle. And I have lots of letters which I discovered about five years ago, which I thought were probably letters that my father had written it, Adam, because his name and my grandfather's name were exactly the same. But when I looked at the date, my father could only have been about twelve year old you see, when these letters were written so it must have been my grandfather writing to Coventry and Birmingham for parts for the penny farthing bicycles which he worked on. And er these were er he would do a lot of the iron work, because a lot of the iron work would be forged. But wheels and these sort of things would be got from Coventry in, I think, the maker's the, the same people who invented the, the safety bike. They were er these letters are to one of these firms. And erm these er he must have given up bicycles when the penny farthing was outdated. And er there's quite a number of years h he, there was many bicycle shops in Galashiels when the new safety bike came in, and blacksmiths probably didn't bother doing any work on them. It was mainly newer bicycle shops. But when my father took over, when he came back to Galashiels, he started in bicycles and there was quite probably ten bicycle shops in Galashiels at that time and er he gave, well he, he attracted business with his efficient way of repairing bicycles and er it's funny that after about a number of years, we were between the last, after the last war I should say, the Second World War, er we were about the only people for, for a period the only bicycle shop in Galashiels. There's more now but th at that period we were the only one left. Then we, father er with doing the bicycles and with interest in other engineering things like gas engines, which seemed to have a, a period of er great prosperity I would say er in the period between nineteen hundred or maybe a few years before that until early twenties the, the gas engines were ideal things for little factories. And er you even find them in some of the mills er in Galashiels and in er as the taking place of steam. And of course the, or driving part of the mill I wouldn't say they completely took over from steam. But they just went out of fashion as well. And er when electric motors came in naturally and each individual machine was driven by an electric motor. Er well this maybe gave him a an insight into working on gas engines, er I couldn't really say. But he erm he was once burned very severely with one of them blowing out, and he's b he suffered from it all his life after that. But er er when you looked at his skin he was all burned in the front and er with this exp explosion of a gas engine. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] Now in the period that I come into it would be the First World War, when we had er, of course in these days, the thing we always, to look at the motor trade then, it was a follow up from the carriage trade. Because motor cars didn't go at great speeds and nobody would dream of taking a motor car to Edinburgh when the railway was there and could get you in Edinburgh within three quarters of an hour. But the, the motor car was used firstly for taking people back and forward to the station. In place of the old horse and cab. And then of course people had picnics on the Sundays of the summer and er so on it grew more quite a lot from the hiring. And then after when there was practically no erm commercial trade with them at that time. Any commercial vans or lorries seemed to be made out of what was originally private cars. And which is natural because you know, the very early motor cars were only a sort of toy for the rich as it were and er when it came to you see er grocer's vans or, or er laundry vans made out of old pr private cars. And then of course when the First World, World War came along,th a lot of cars were remade into ambulances and er then of course the lorries began to be, come into their own. There were there wouldn't be very many before the wirst First World War. But after the First World War, there seemed to be quite a lot of lorries. And of course after the war broke up, there were quite a lot of X W D lorries, lorries on the market and they were converted into a erm charabancs which was an open bus [LAUGHTER] as it were. And er they, we had a, a stake in that too at the very beginning er we did have a converted er X W D lorries into charabancs and we also got some newer ones. But this ceased in nineteen twenty six. When we sold to another firm. Er who ran bus services from Gala to Selkirk and Melrose and er we sold out to them because we, the other side of the business where the private car side seemed to be growing. And we just hadn't the time to do both. And er it was quite a good move I think, to dispose of the, the charabancs and concentrate on the private cars. We then got the, the agency for Morris, which was a very popular car and erm we also got the agency for Austins, which er, it came about with father being interested in a hiring car, the Austin Twenty, he thought it was, it was the best that could be got. And he went into the main agent in Edinburgh and gave them an order for three of those, and of course, we didn't get them just right away because er probably we'd have got the last one about a couple of years later [LAUGHTER] in these days []. But anyway we, they must have been so impressed by the, the order that they got, that they gave us the agency for Galashiels and Selkirk for the Austin. And of course, the next year, the Austin Seven came on the market and proved to be one of the most popular cars in the market. [Malcolm:] So that the foundation of your future prosperity in a sense. [Swinton:] That was we were main one of the, my father seen er possibilities er when he attended the London show, he went er he, he was very much taken on with the Morris Cowley first of all. And he went to, he decided to go straight to Oxford before he came back to Galashiels and er see William Morris who was Lord Nuffield later on. But he, we, we were offered the agency for the four counties in the borders. But as we were very small people in these days, he could only see his way to take Selkirkshire and Peebleshire. He'd probably have been better to have taken Selkirkshire and Roxburghshire. But however that's the way things went and er we were distributors for the Morris for Selkirkshire and Peebleshire. And held it right up until recently. Which the, the organization changed you see and er it wasn't through our fault but er distrib they wanted some, a main agent in every town after that. And the distributorship sort of fell through. But that was only after we had it for about thirty years or, or more. [Malcolm:] To go back to your own life Mr, erm you [cough] could you er were you always interested in engineering as a boy? [Swinton:] No. I would say of the three brothers, I was the one that was least interested in engineering. I always had a sort of inclination towards buildings, architecture and that sort of thing. But being the son of my father, it was his aim to send me out to serve my time as an engineer. Which I really I went to Amos and I didn't like it but of course I had to stick it. But I, I only s er times were very poor as it was nineteen twenty seven, twenty eight and things were very poor in the mills especially. And of course a lot of the engineering was on textile machinery and er I didn't, I just wouldn't go back to it after I'd been at it about a couple of years. I wouldn't finish my apprent and I came into our own firm and started with bicycles and motorcars. Right up until I wasn't able to do any more and able to, like all engineers you get most of the men when you get to the stage where you're not able to crawl under cars [LAUGHTER] and do things like that so you [] you find another bu business, we went into sales and, and er accessories, stores and that I've been in all that line in the last twenty years before I retired. [Malcolm:] Did all your schooling take place in Gala? [Swinton:] Yes, my schooling I went to the School in nineteen seventeen in the middle of the First World War. And er we had er a very fine teacher then when er I can look back in pleasure when I went to school. They were Miss was the teacher and the, the next three classes I would say with great pleasure, and then we came to one of the old ones which er they were more severe, probably she used the tawse a lot. And we used to c as we had nicknames for the ones we didn't like, she was called. [LAUGHTER] So er we didn't like er so we, she was a Miss of course. [LAUGHTER] And we had erm we, there was a few changes during that time, we used to get troops coming in and occupying the classroom, and we maybe, at the very early days I can remember having to go to the Street School and also the Street Hall which belong that was a church hall. But we only went for half a day at that period and then for a month or so then the troops went away again, we got back into our own school. I can remember the, the days of the, the armistice when we thought there was a lot of the with the teachers and er, this is faintly in my mind, we heard all the mill whistles blowing. And er then we knew that the war was finished. And then every year after that, they used to hold the one minute's silence which the mill whistles went and of course you stood for a minute and then they went again and that was it over. And this carried on, right on well practically until the second war. And er then we had a bit, there was a victory organization of the schools then. We had to go from the School to the School for two years and back to the School again, and er finally we'd go to the Academy. But I went to a private school after that, I went to one run by a Mr, Mr E M. He was a grand master er and er you got Greek and Latin and all these sort of things. But I didn't er I think his teaching days, he was getting rather old and he didn't control us as he should have been able to. And er it was a mixed school of course some of ours er different ages you see because it was just one big classroom. And er however it's funny that you, things remain with you, er even in the Greek and Latin, I often find when I'm doing a crossword puzzle, something I don't think I would ever take in, and yet I seem to, can answer the [LAUGHTER] question. About er er the son of er Greek goddesses or something []. The, after the school I was never one for er I never was a great one for sport. Although I did go and watch the rugby, I never was a great one for, and I, I used to swim quite a lot. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] But er most of my interests were in motoring actually er in the days of er after we left the school after I was driving, of course I was er, these were the days when if you had a motorcar, the whole world was at your feet, and er you could go all over Britain if you, just for petrol at one and thruppence ha'penny a gallon or something like that. And er therefore er w we made the most of it, my chum and I, Sid, we were in nineteen thirty two I would think we would be o one of the first hundred people or so to go with a, a week's f er tour to Paris by air. A package deal. The, the Imperial Ai Airways had just er they had just received four big planes er which they put on the Paris er route. And I think we were going, first of all it was a firm Polytechnic Tours in London. We had booked up for the ordinary ship and, and rail you know, to go over by ship and rail but er during the months awaiting the, I think we were going in July and er we had booked up maybe about April, but they had put these planes on and Polytechnic wrote to us and said, if we paid two pounds ten extra, we could go by air and we did it and the full tour for a week in Paris, going by air, was twelve pounds ten. And that included two tours as well. And we flew from er that was from London, we flew from the Croydon Airport in London, and er we, you went down to er an, a small office near Victoria Station in these days and er you w we, you put your luggage in there and then they took you out on a special bus to Croydon. And we only flew about I think it was four thousand feet, that we flew and we thought this was terribly high. [LAUGHTER] And then and of course as far as I remember we, you could hear the noises of the engines of course, terrible, not, not like planes today. And you could also feel the, the shuddering of the, the wings and the fuselage er and er it was rather frightful you know, if you hadn't been before. But er it's so simple today when you realize the, the difference, how easy it is and but er that was an experience I can tell you. [Malcolm:] Can you possibly remember how much you were paid for your apprenticeship with Amos? [Swinton:] Yes, I have the slip somewhere, and my father I didn't keep it but my father must have kept it, but I discovered it one day and it was seven and thruppence I think for the first week's pay. And that was the common thing in these days. With er apprentices was seven and thruppence or seven and six or something like that. [Malcolm:] And that would be about the m m the m m m nineteen twenties. [Swinton:] Nineteen twenty seven I would think. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] Nineteen twenty seven.. [Malcolm:] And er your working week was what? [Swinton:] Well erm eight o'clock in the morning till quarter to six I think it was then in the evening. Er there must have been a at one time it, it had been six o'clock I think it was a quarter to six we finished. And of course there was a thing we w a lot of the work in the mills was in or Selkirk and of course you went to the early train in the morning, there was a train from Galashiels to and it was full of workers going to the mills in and of course if you going er to work in a mill there, your, your foreman would come, you would draw the tools, at the, the night before you went to the job, you would take them there to the train in the morning, and meet the foreman and you would go to to do the job and the same to Selkirk. [Malcolm:] And these sort of jobs would be repair work or construction work? [Swinton:] Er textile machinery er I can't remember us doing very much except er dismantling machinery [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] er because at that time there was quite a lot, you would get one mill in probably with somewhere about seventy looms in it and there would only b be less than ten of them working. The, it was into the depression period. It had been b I think a lot of the mills had been during the very, the years after the war, they had been very busy and a lot of them would build sheds and b take up looms that were, you, they probably had new looms on order but they were filled with a lot of scrap almost you know, anything they could get that work, work. And er they were, well quite a lot of them were scrapped in the days when the depression came on. And erm the... I, I can't remember er... oh I think most of the work up there that I was on, we were doing different jobs in the mill, like er when very too when the mills were closed at the holidays, we, we used to go up and work in some of the mills. And er we had er I've seen us work er I think one of the jobs was on shafting and things like that mostly. didn't work on the machinery so much. Er but as I say, I wasn't very long at that so er when I came back to the, the motor trade, and bicycle trade, motor trade, cars in these days you get a variety of er all sorts of cars. Some of them were some had got old cars in where the tyres, if it was a puncture it was these great big wheels with beaded edge tyres which you can, you put on in quite a different way from the modern car tyres. You had to put them all on in a piece you see with the tube in it and er things became much easier when the wheel base trim came in. Er then of course er petrol, before that I was in the, before I started the work we used to go out delivering petrol and petrol was all done in tins, two gallon tins. There was no petrol pumps. And er they were kept in a special store which had to be three feet into the ground you know, for safety. And every big mansion house had a place about at least ten feet away from the house, where they had a store for holding the tins. And each of the places er where we got the supply of tins, er we had a little van that went out to deliver the tins and we delighted as boys, going out, carrying the two tins er into the place. And er the cars then of course were all painted in, there were no cellulose paint, we had a paint shop there but er it, and we had an old painter who used to paint the cars in enamel and they were an awful lot of work on them. And of course you had to have great dustsheets to keep the dust. Because if it had been painted, and the paint took quite a long time to dry and er if there was a speck of dust it remained there forever. Or or you would have to take the whole thing off again. So there were, the place was specially big dustsheets and kept the dust off the paint. And there was a lot of rubbing down and that sort of thing. After the cellulose paint came in of course, things were quite different. They had to be done in a special, you know where they extracted the, the fumes away from the, the paint shop. And of course it was a very much harder paint. [Malcolm:] Did you go to a technical college at all? [Swinton:] in the evenings, everybody then went to the technical college here. It, it at least u two nights a week. And er that was the old college in Street. I can remember it well, it was lit by gas e even in these days you know it would have been all electric light but it was gas and er we had erm, I would go for engineering drawing and maths probably I think. I just can't remember. Of course, for about two years you know after and everybody went to something or other. It was the done thing. There was no er you, you thought nothing about it. [Malcolm:] And what about er your life, you started really on the sort of bicycle and repair side of life [Swinton:] Yes. [Malcolm:] erm how did that e wh wh what did your father pay you in those days for that? [Swinton:] Oh well, being the boss's son I probably got ten shillings a week probably [Malcolm:] Ten. [Swinton:] [LAUGHTER] when I started I would think []. And er later on er I would be er wages I think were then about three pound something, in the, very little more than three pounds. [Malcolm:] For a skilled man? [Swinton:] Yes. For a skilled man. Er they had been very much lower th er er in nineteen hundred and ten when we, I have some of the books showing you know, as little as er thirteen shillings a week for a skilled man you see and that sort of thing. But erm and of course my father was also an inventor, he had, he had done, everything was used. We he had a patent on what we called aiming race for laying guns in, during the First World War. He, it was for the, you know, the, the instructor w would come round and see if you had aimed the thing, it was a tripod sort of thing. Now orders came from and Sons the printers who were great target printers, and are still today the great target printer. Now orders came from the, and also we had orders for th, e the falling target in the you know, of a, a rifle range where you had to er put up the frames you know with a target on it and er we made a lot of these during the First World War. W that bit we gave up after the First World War but we made er we did make some of these er patented things that they had in the Second World War. Er he also, everything was used, they were made out of gas piping and what got the piping in certain lengths and there's always a bit, a small bit about a foot left over, he made these into gas pokers. And er the things that we had, we had a or two when they used to be, when all the cars most of them were open of course in the early days and except for the, the limousines who were chauffeur driven. But er there were so many open cars and we had an upholsterer who er made the hoods and repaired the hoods and upholstery and er we even made things out of the old scraps of these er just to, we made bags for, for carrying trade plates for er people going away for cars. To Oxford and, and Birmingham. And er I used to go myself quite a lot er when there were well when there were more than one coming up I've seen me go into, down in the pullman train from here to er, well we had about five changes I think,fat father had it all marked out so as you changed at a certain place. We used to walk from New Station at New Street Station at Birmingham u up to Snow Hill Station. Now that's all away now there's, there's no Snow Hill I don't think you can really find out where it was nowadays. But we got into a train there and went to, to Crewe I think it was. And then there was a certain place where we would go to a breakfast on the train. Then he landed in Oxford just at the right time to go out to the factory and it was open, and you had to get your car as soon as you could and see that everything was all right. And erm if you noticed anything, get it done before you left the works you see. And then he, he got on the road and he, we usually took, he had to run it er not more than twenty five miles and hour, and er you had to run it, we, we stopped at Preston if we could get there. That was one of the stopping places. And then the next day we brought it home. But er that was one of the things er he kep it was an enjoyable trip and the roads were in these days, er you get the motorways today, I just think on the roads, what they were in these days, there was even some places we went through a ford in the middle of the road, with the water about two or three inches deep. And er there was very little money spent on the roads at that time, the, the railways had been the great carriers of everything and the motorcars were just coming in. And er but, but w I did see the roads improving continuously through all these years. [Malcolm:] Did your brothers go with you into the family business? [Swinton:] Yes, my oldest brother, they were older than me er my brothers, there was one two years older, there was one seven years older than me. And er I was really the youngest, there was one in between who had died. Er but he had died actually as a very young child. The then of course when the wartime came along, the last war, I didn't, I didn't used to rush away, I, I had that sense to not just, to rush on to the [LAUGHTER] with the [LAUGHTER] rest of them, so [] I joined the fire brigade, the regular fire brigade. And er I was unmarried at that time and erm I, for a number of, well till nineteen forty was the end of nineteen forty I think, I joined up and went into the, the R A O C as it was then, it became the the side that I was in of course. In a workshop which was being made up... [break in recording] Then we went on to er, it was funny that we passed through London, the very s day or second day that word arrived that the invasion was on, the troops had arrived in, in Normandy. And oh the reception we got in London. They thought that we were going straight, we and we thought so too [LAUGHTER] that we would just go straight over the, through London []. And of course everybody after years of gloom were all absolutely er treating everybody you know. [LAUGHTER] We just couldn't get off [] we had the Metropolitan Police escorting us through you see, to the, we were going to the south. Er where I ended up in Barracks which was a guards barrage barracks near. In Surrey. And then we started we thought, oh well we'll just th be guarding then we'll be away. However we, the next thing we knew was the flying bombs began to come over. And of course this, there, we couldn't understand it what these things were that went flying through the sky and er aeroplane tried to chase them. Of course they couldn't because they weren't speedy enough. And then the next thing you heard er away in the distance some had landed about Croydon or Streatham or something and, and some landed in the hills rounds about us. One landed in the very centre of er East Grinstead too. But er however there were none of them struck the camp. So we were off er after that we were off and landed down in erm Bishop's Wharf er in the woods there and we, the next morning we were off down to Gosport and we were embarked on the ships there and er landed in Normandy at the beach it was. And er then we were led through into the assembly area. And it was quite quiet for a little bit because most of them had established themselves and we were waiting for a breakout and er we didn't get on the move again until the they went through the after it had been. Er we went through just after it, the rest of the troops had gone through, we followed them on. And then we were held up at a place because some of our tanks e e the seventy ninth armoured division was er holding all the special tanks er which were flamethrowers and flails and all these sort of things. Er and of course they had to use these crocodiles er down the coast er where the Germans were holding out er at and Dunkirk you see. Er and although they'd got, they couldn't get the towns although they had. And also they sent some of them away down to the u the n the army that was coming from the south. Er I can't remember I wasn't with them but we, we were in a spot and erm some of the tanks were away down there and some were up here and we, the next move we went to. And [Malcolm:] And all this time you were recovering and repairing? Yes. [Swinton:] Recovering and repairing, aye. Well mainly recovering, taking them into workshops. Many of them were er... sometimes we, you co got into a minefield and you couldn't, you gave it up you know because er by that time I think there would be plenty replacements coming on the market. But some of the early days, they, we, we gathered them into a park which er the w they were cannibalized. Instead of sending back to Britain for a, a part, they took it off an old tank you see, and on that had been part was still all right you see, but the tank was er useless but there would maybe be a bit of the track alright, so we cannibalized them. And they were put onto it. And then we went right through Belgium and Holland, we were stuck in Holland for er in luckily enough for the winter. In er the last year before we broke through. And then it was erm erm... which was er battered about a bit but we were preparing for the, the next move you see. Then after they crossed the Rhine, we moved away up to the north Holland about. Which was on the German border. But by that time er we weren't there very long and the war finished and I was there in for a year after that in, in er Germany. Up near the. So that was er and then I came back here I was demobbed and came back to, I was er the highest rank I had was corporal you know, in the acting corporal actually. Er in er when we were in Germany. Now er we, I came back here then and of course we had, the, the workshop had to be brought back to normal again to deal with the cars. Er and the, we had, had a lot of, during the war, we did a lot of general engineering, we had made er what they called iron shearing machines. Cutting the iron by hand. And er it actually went back to my grandfather's day when he always wanted to get one of these machines and er he couldn't afford it. But he got a pattern made and had the base of the machine made at a local foundry and he made all the leverage parts and got the, he got the blades made in Sheffield or somewhere and er he made one for himself. And he called it the well he was asked to make one for other blacksmiths. And we s we had kept on making this, maybe we, some years we would sell about ten of them. This had went on and on and there was practically every blacksmith's shop in Scotland would have one of these machines made by us. And they called it the number one. And er I think there were some of them still in use about fifty years after they were made. They'll be still in probably in use today. But at the beginning of the war, when things were very doubtful, and we didn't know whether the army would commandeer all our buildings or what, and we started to make bench models of this er iron shearing machine. And [Malcolm:] Can you describe really what i what an iron shearing machine does? [Swinton:] Well it's like a big lever and it has a, at the bottom it has a bar which the very high tensile steel is fixed into. And, and the b and the bar on the bottom as well holding the th no the base of the thing holds the other bit of the blade. [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] And as you pull it down, it's the leverage that cuts the, the steel. It er it'll cut mild [Malcolm:] It's a huge knife really. [Swinton:] It's like a huge knife aha. [Malcolm:] Yeah. [Swinton:] Just the same, you've seen them with paper cutters you know. it's the same principle. [Malcolm:] Like a guillotine type of thing. [Swinton:] But er we made them er, of course the le it's the leverage that does the cutting you see. Because you get er great leverage on this thing and it er you're cutting mild steel bars you see. And er we, we did erm we, we started making er bench models because we found quite a lot of these had been made in Germany. The there, a lot had, we had never made the small ones before. But we st started making them and er we made thousands during the war and of course part of the, the lower part of the garage was used for making these. And er then we after the war was finished, we continued making them for several years, but we had to transfer it to another factory. And it was a chancy business, sometimes we were very busy, sometimes we, we could er... we could diversify and making some other machines like we, we did some er rotary punching machines which were instead of drilling a hole, you could punch it you see. And er we did this er in this little factory at Netherdale. But there was periods that y your men you, you hadn't enough to occupy fully occupy the men. And we got a firm in Glasgow who had to move. They made bakery machinery, and they came er and took our factory over. And we, we concentrated on the motor trade after that. We, we kept on er making or doing repairs for the Ministry of Works for about ooh seven or eight years after the war finished, which kept a lot of men working in Galashiels when we, you know, when they weren't very sure if they could come back to [LAUGHTER] their old jobs []. But we kept this on for quite a number of years. And we had an inspector from the, the office from the home department here who er e had his office down there, and we did all this, they were for er the Ministry of Works. And they, they did erm vehicles for the Navy, the Army, the Air Force and the Forestry Commission, any government thing that was. And er until it became the time when the thing got smaller and smaller and we finally had to do away with that place. But it lasted for a good seven or eight years after the war was finished. And provided work for quite a lot of men. [Malcolm:] How [Swinton:] And then of course the other garage in the middle of the town, we got back to normal, repairs and er [Malcolm:] And how h h had l had l life changed between er the nineteen thirties and the nineteen forties? By the time you got back. [Swinton:] Oh very much. Very much er so although wages at the end of the war weren't so big you know even then er [Malcolm:] Can you remember what sort of [Swinton:] five pound would be a, a, a wage you know, five, ten, five somewhere between five pound and er six pound I would think. [Malcolm:] As opposed to maybe three and [Swinton:] And, and they gradually went up. [Malcolm:] three pounds before the war? [Swinton:] Yes probably three pounds before the. Now I was one who saved a lot myself, and we had some very good holidays. And one of the last holidays I took, and I was on my own, I went to the United States for, and Canada for er the, the six weeks I think it was or eight weeks. And er that was a very interesting period because it was nineteen thirty nine and of course the, what the, my impressions of America were quite different when you got there, from er what er their er impressions of the world situation were. Where even going on the boat, we went from Glasgow from Quay in one of the Line boats and erm it cost erm the cheapest fares were twenty seven pounds ten return. The, the fare for er that I went was thirty two pounds ten. And that was er I didn't come back with an Line boat, I came back with a erm Canadian Pacific Boat. Because I changed out there, but we had to pay about five pounds just to change from one line to the other. But er we went from erm Quay, we did stay at Belfast for a about erm just er a few hours, picked up the Belfast passengers, they, they, we didn't dock there,we they came on by tender. Then you had about ten days at sea and you had oh three big meals a day included all in this. And erm dances and everything you know, it was really a, a luxury the crossing. Although it was very rough at first, but I got used with it even when the seasickness caught me up going round the top of the highland, but once he was away from that and er I wasn't a drinker in these days but some old man says to me, er before you go to a meal, he says, take a drop of brandy. I, I says, oh, I says, I hate brandy, I says, I never could. And I did and you know, I was never seasick after that. And I went er in the boat coming back er from Canada was far worse as the one going acro but we went to Boston and we stayed out in the harbour there and then we sailed down the coast into New York, which was a great sight. And of course the, the main object of going there was to see the World Fair that was on that year. And er it was interesting to the point of view of their attitude to Britain then and er you know they were isolationists of course, you see. And er of course er their newspapers told an awful lot that ours [LAUGHTER] didn't tell you see []. And their impression er of Germany well you can imagine a big country like America, there's quite a lot of them Germans and the, the German angle was er played up as well you see. And of course er they knew that there was gonna be a war whereas we put it out of our mind, we thought, well we'll be prepared but it'll never come. You know, and that's our sot of attitude. But they knew of course it'll happen. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] If it doesn't happen this year it'll happen next spring you see, and of course er one lady who had been with her aunty er over in the Germany, she says when they went into, she knew they were accumulating theirs, she had some friends in Germany and of course they, she said they were hoarding up just at the borders of Poland I think it would be then. And er she, we had some very interesting insights you know into the, just from various people, what the situation was. And then of course er when I got to New York we were quite friendly with all the people on the boat you know that made great friends with some of them and er I had two or three places to go, I had spent a few days at the World Fair and then I flew down to Washington and er then I came back again. Er then I went on to Buffalo and Niagara falls and crossed over to Canada which I had a few friends there. And erm stayed in Ottawa and Toronto. And er Montreal. And then sailed from Montreal, I was going to go back my, it was my intention to go back to New York, but I changed my mind at Montreal and sailed down the St Lawrence from Montreal, back to Glasgow. Well we'd, the, the trip back we didn't go into Quay, we stayed off the tail at the back and we came ashore. and it was a magnificent sail up the Clyde. Everybody was impressed, it was a glorious day like this you know so the Clyde looks so beautiful when you see it in the, in, in a, in weather like this you know. S and er... two or three friends, oh I, I had been on a number of cruises before that, to Germany, to Norway and Sweden, to Denmark. I had been on all the northern capitals. And I had been once in a, a cruise liner to the Canary Islands and Madeira in nineteen thirty five. And er some of these ships, this one was the Empress of Australia. They had been old German hulks you know ta brought over to this country after the First World War as part of the reparations and they had been finished off in Liverpool and Glasgow somewhere. And er they were, a lot of them were sunk of course in the Second World War. One of the finest ones I was ever on, which we enjoyed, it wasn't a new ship by any means, but it was the Lancastrian [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] and it was sunk at Dunkirk. [Malcolm:] Mhm. Mhm. [Swinton:] and er... these are things you never forget you know. I was once going to go on a trip, my mate and I we go a trip to er a train cruise down from er down through Italy and of course [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] here the Ethio Ethiopian experiment was [Malcolm:] Oh. [Swinton:] the thing you know with the, the Italians. Of course that was cancelled. And he cancelled his er trip but I'd I booked up for one to go to Norway [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] and at that time so [Malcolm:] So bringing you back to after the war, er how did the business continue er then or for, from that time forward? [Swinton:] Well we had er the business was quite good er we had er we could do, of course at the end of the war, we could have done with an awful lot more cars, but we couldn't get them. I was just remarking the other day, I think I brought one of the first Land Rovers to the borders from Edinburgh. And I can always remember it was in the middle of winter and put on the, the four that bit circular bit put it into the four wheel drive and it came up there wonderful and the, yet er going in we were and the other car was swaying all over the place. But in, in the impression was that we'd a Land Rover then it's funny. Er we could have done with cars, he says, what are they bringing out this silly thing when we could have done with more cars you know. And who will we ever sell it to? And of course Mr our salesman er he took it up to that big estate and er Mr had got too old to go up to the shooting on the horse you know. And of course er w wondered if this Land Rover would go up there with the four wheel drive. So Mr went up and er he went a way up the hill, places that never a car or anything like that had been before because there were gullies and everything and he could have sank in the middle of a gully or something. However he, he must of chosen the right place to go and er he went right up onto the hill and Mr got his shooting er and he bought the thing on the spot. I don't know if it's the sa I don't think it's the same one they have today but it was the first Land Rover that I can ever remember coming to the borders. And then we took on every farmer got one after that. But it did at the time appear rather a, the last thing [Malcolm:] The last thing that anybody would want. [Swinton:] was anybody thinking on you know, to have er cars you know. However it was a winner. And er we went on er for a few ye at, at that time we had agencies for Jaguar, Rover, M G, er Riley, Wolsley, erm Humber. We had all these er and Austin of course and Morris, we had all these agencies at the end of the war, and yet we couldn't get enough cars. But er however things went on and er we, we've had very bad years some years when the we, stuck too much I think to some of the Morris of course er they had their troubles of course and, and then eventually we, it was funny we were the only two people in the whole of Britain who h ho held the agencies for Austin and Morris together and we were at times we were thinking we must lose one of them. And er we never lost them, they joined together eventually and [LAUGHTER] we [] [LAUGHTER] that's all the position. And er we, we didn't do an awful lot on commercial later on, we gave up that er thing we, we mostly concentrated on the private cars. [Malcolm:] Going back to your trip in America [Swinton:] But going, yes. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] Now one of the things that was on the you know there was the great Radio City Music Hall. And er oh glamorous shows they had on there. And they had a what they called the twenty four girls dancing you know, and also they, they had the, a film in the show which probably I think it was a Bing Crosby film that was on. V very good show. But another one, they had in another cinema across off it was just off Broadway, the Roxy I think it was, and they had Goodbye Mr Chips. That was with Robert Donat. And you know I went into that film it was just being launched in America, and there was a sort of prologue to the film and er I didn't know whether to, to become terribly angry or, or just about cry because the prologue was as if Britain was a sinking ship you know, this was the last we would see of this great thing and they made the most of it you know, like er i the g the film was the old private schools you know the old w well the public schools in England. And er this was a thing that would die out you know. They always had in America that sort of er something er that against colonialism you see. Although there were more colonialism [LAUGHTER] in, in America than than we were in [] well are now anyway but er in, in a way that was the sort of impression. And that gave me a terrible feeling, I just didn't know what to, whether to you know, you was sad and yet you felt wild at them putting it that way. And yet they were right of course, they were right enough it, it never came again completely as it,noth nothing stay the same. But er some of the exhibitions at the great er World Fair were really, there were some splendid things, although the main er theme of the thing wasn't so grandio well it was grandiose in a way but just too much so. It was the commercialism that struck me. The railways of America, the different l er railways, they had a huge pavilion well a huge er arena open air, with a huge stage and it was the presentation of the history of the railway engine... [break in recording] [Malcolm:] Oops. Sorry about that.... [break in recording] [Swinton:] Rocket and so forth. Something similar and er they came up to the, the great Pacific engines that came on and they, two of them came down in front of the stage, two of them were just a little bit higher up, and on the stage itself, there were scenes done like the hall in the Grand Central Station, New York and er they were, it was either the Ink Spots or some of these dancers that gave a performance, and it was so well put on that you couldn't help being impressed by [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] them you know. And then they had that great Aquatade Aquacade in another place. It was er you paid to get into it, but this railway show was all free. And of course there was er with engines from all the different countries including the, the Flying Scotsman and, and different German trains and, and Italian trains and so on. And then they, the one where Johnny Weismuller was, it was a lake in front of a great arena which they did a lot of you know, swimming about in the lake and the different formations. And they, then the other ones er there was one with General Motors and it was a, a huge thing, you were ten, it was a huge building, modern building but you just couldn't tell what it was from the outside. But you went on to a nameless belt of chairs and it took you it was Highways and Horizons they called it. And you went on to these chairs and you went through a, a scenic part which showed you the roads of the future. Now they're what we have today, the motorways you know. [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] But it, it was so varied that you went through the, the cities and the highland scenes where they went through the highlands and in the country and then you ended up with coming on to a crossroads in a modern, a futuristic city, where if you look down you, the pavements were elevated and you walked down to where all the models of General Motors were displayed as if they were crossing roads. And er I thought it was, what a money it must have cost to put that one commercial firm doing that. [Malcolm:] Mm. [Swinton:] And Ford was the same, you could have a run round in a, up and down you know in a sort of, in any of the latest models and oh there were some great commercial er pavilions in the, in the place really. The British one wasn't too bad either in the New York World Fair.... [break in recording] [Malcolm:] Could you tell me now Mr as to some of your experiences as a town councillor please? [Swinton:] Well I, I was sitting in my house one night on the, I think it would be er nineteen fifty four, and a deputation came up from the ward committee to see me and wondered if I would join the council. I hadn't thought about it before then, and I said well I would need a day or two to think about it. So they said they would come back the next week and see what I thought. So I decided to go on to the council. At the time er I did various things, I was in the [Malcolm:] I wh could you, sorry to interrupt you, could you could you tell me what year this was Mr? [Swinton:] Nineteen fifty four it would be I think. [Malcolm:] Right. [Swinton:] And er [Malcolm:] You were in the opera company [Swinton:] I, I had been er just in the chorus of the opera company and er you know, various the church choir and things like that I was in. But er of course I gave up that and went er when I went on to the council. I, er first of all I was a kind of shy wee laddie [LAUGHTER] as it were on the council. Because at that time the council was er men very much older than me and er very few young people on it really. [Malcolm:] How did you come, how was the election managed then? [Swinton:] Well they were, the ward committee had been seeking for a, a candidate, but I had no opposition at that time at all. I was the only one who stood. In that second ward. Which was a ward which I would say it was built about the ninet the eighteen seventies. And er a lot of the people, the families had grown up and the housing was in a poor state. But the old people preferred to remain there instead of moving to properties which might be a bit far away for them. Now er when I w went on the council,o of course I was first put on the parks and recreation committee. The one that I would really like to have got onto was the, the building h the hous housing committee. Which er I did eventually get on to and was a convenor for quite a number of years. And then I got on to the, I was convenor of the housing allocation committee for very many years. I served under five different provosts. Whom er the last one that I can r the last who was alive died just about a fortnight ago. It was Colin. The first one I was on was, was under John. I was under er Lindsey Provost Lindsey. Provost Archie, Provost Colin and Provost, William. Er now William of course was on more than one term at the end. And I think I, I would just needed to say the word and I could have been Provost myself but I didn't really feel that I would be able to control the council, I think that was my impression at this. [LAUGHTER] Although I believe I would. But er later on when the council er after the new set up came on, I didn't s join the new set up, like the region a and the, the district councils. I, I didn't I came off the council at that time and er I became the president of the gathering. It was a three year appointment. I was the first president of the gathering. Now the duties I had to do there was to take the place of what the Provost of the town did before you see. And er introduce the candidates to the public you know, over the balcony when they're elected. And take part in all the ceremonies. [Malcolm:] But there isn't now a Ga a provost in Gala? [Swinton:] No it's a district provost now. Provost is for the district. You see now if anything happened er it could be a provost who'd the district who hasn't anything to do with the Galashiels you see, the next one in every probability. Now er we had, I had followed the gathering well since it was instituted in nineteen thirty. And had known, took, took part in every one, right up I'd never been away out of the town in the time the was on. All through these years took part in every one for the last fifty years. And er in some way or other you know, not always in the same position but I'd always er had something to do with it. [Malcolm:] Going back to your erm er council experience, erm what er you said that you were first put on the parks and recreation department. Erm what sort of duties did you have to deal with in that? [Swinton:] Well we had the parks to look after, we had the baths, the public baths and the playing fields to er they were administered through a parks superintendent. The, we did er our baths were dating from the nineteen fourteen period and they were getting rather old the, the, the boiler wasn't too good and we were afraid that it might burst at some time. We did erm get estimates for, to change the system. Of course when the baths were made there were ladies days and gents days, mixed bathing was considered not the thing in these days, but it did come in in the twenty or the, or the late twenties. And of course the, with the boxes being all round the side, the dressing boxes, this was outmoded, we needed a building at the side, which there was sufficient room to build something at the side because we had a park at the side of it then. And er we had a plan for to build a building with er dressing accommodation and er this was gonna cost seven thousand pound when we couldn't face it, we thought that there were far more important things to deal with than that when we had housing, we had just had a housing report which said that two thousand houses in the town were not up to the modern standard. And that meant in many cases, that the toilets were out in the garden and one toilet was serving about four houses. And that was the traditional sort of way in Galashiels, it was rather more like the rural areas than what the cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow are, the toilets were just outside where the old dry toilets had been. And er they didn't spend the money when the sewage scheme was put into the town, the, the landlords didn't spend the money on bui rebuilding bits of the houses. For some reason or other, the money would be scarce at the time. It, it came or it or it would be one of the depressions that the town has suffered from many times during the last fifty or sixty years. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] Well we began to tackle the housing problem because this was a very big problem. And the result was of course that we couldn't build the centre of the town. We would have liked to rebuild it but then we had to find places for the people to go and being a narrow valley it, most of the housing was put at the end of the town. And er some of the schemes have been criticized but it was a blessing in a way that we got them done when we did and er we were able to house a lot of people out there and release ground in the centre of the town to be redeveloped and er brought up to modern standards. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] And er there was a stage when we came to the, where we really decided we'd have to earmark different streets, how far we were gonna go in the centre of the town, because people were beginning to get grants for altering houses, and then in another five years time the council, the council were having to buy back these houses to redevelop the area. So there was a stage where we did say, this scheme is going so far and anybody that buys a house out with that area, they're free to apply for grants. But if they, we will, we will not allow them within this area which we intend to demolish and rebuild. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [Swinton:] And so it went on and the town today has er practically been either reconstructed, the centre has been reconstructed or the older buildings have been brought up to modern standards. Er there, there'll be a very small number of houses now which are substandard, compared with what there was in nineteen fifty four when I first went on the council. And er of course on the coun town council I was also er on the county council because the proportional representation of the area Galashiels held the whole, fifteen councillors were on the county council. And er there was only one who couldn't take part and he was in the fire brigade and couldn't take part because they were er his employers. So er when I was, I was on the county council I was on the welfare committee and er in later years I was on the planning committee. [Malcolm:] Mhm. But er the welfare one was my er secret love as it were it was []. Because er I knew the area very well, I was er we had two committees which were composed of two counties, we had the Priory Committee th that was a home at Selkirk, a children's home, and we had in cooperation with Berwickshire, Berwickshire and Selkirkshire were the owners of the Priory children's home. And I was chairman of it for about six years or so before the council broke up. We also had another one which was er which had been a poorhouse, turned into an old folks home and it was er Peebleshire and Selkirkshire. It had been at one time, going back over a hundred and fifty years, it had been what they called a combination poorhouse. And Galashiels being placed where it was on the between four counties,th you had Berwickshire, Peebleshire, Roxburghshire and Selkirkshire all having a part. But Roxburghshire and Berwickshire came out of it and it was a Peebleshire and Selkirkshire home. And er it was er we had to develop it from a poorhouse into an old folks' home. Which took a very long time. We, we tackled it without putting a great lot on the rates, we were a, we were able to tackle it year by year by altering some of the rooms. Adding er dining rooms and er sitting rooms for the old folk, and er also trying to break up the wards into s smaller units. But er this place er was called View and it's now been er vacated and a new home has been built at the in the Park. And it's And what was it what were these homes for Mr? [Swinton:] Well er old folk who couldn't look after themselves. But originally I can remember that View in the days of the, when it was a poorhouse, and I visited with my mother who used to visit a woman up there. And it was a very bare place then, wooden seats and wooden tables and long trestle tables and er tha that's, I have very faint memories of it. But when we took it over the, one of the first things we did was to redesign the kitchen because the soup was made in these great boiler and it was probably heated up every day of the week and can imagine what it would be like being in prison. [LAUGHTER] []. However that was all changed and er that was the first thing we changed and erm then we erm, during the period we, the staff were changed, Mr and Mrs who are in charge of now, they came as a young couple to View and er I think with their coming, they had different ideas and the place did seem to change. [Malcolm:] That's, this, are we talking about the, the late fifties? Or later on? [Swinton:] Yes. Er the late fifties early sixties I should say, yes. They just, the early sixties I would say probably sixty two or sixty three when they, they came I think. And er of course we took away all the iron beds, put wooden beds, we put little wardrobes in the rooms and these thi tackling it bit by bit each year you see. Not without throwing a great lot onto the rates because the rates were just Selkirkshire, and Peebleshire had to keep it up then and er we didn't er get grants for it in these days. And er so Peebles had their separate homes, we also had a separate one at Side and then we also built the, the one at er Lodge which is another part of the Park. These were er built in between the th that long period that I was on the council. Er I was chairman of that committee as well, View when, when, during quite a long period, until the whole system was changed to the council system like and went onto er and er there was one of our, our er officer who was in charge of welfare was a Mr who had a great knowledge of both Selkirk and Galashiels and the country and er he was known by everybody. And a very great man he was and he, before he ret he had died, he didn't reach retirement, he died before he retired which, and we missed him very much indeed. And er... I didn't have a lot to do with roads or anything like that or education, it was mainly welfare that was my, the, the

[John:] So when they update it, I mean people don't, you'll probably find most people don't say yes. It's yeah or yeah or yeah or [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] So when they update it they put [speaker002:] Right. [John:] Is that alright? [speaker002:] Aye. [John:] [LAUGHTER] You can say no if you like []. Right. What's a mapping? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm a relationship between two objects. Erm have you heard of a many- one mapping? One-one mapping, [speaker002:] Which [John:] many-one, one-one, many-many? [speaker002:] No. [John:] One-many? [speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Oh tt, erm hmm. Mm. Shall we go into mappings? Yes. [cough] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] They're very straightforward. Some people Right let's have a look. Some people tend to sort of think of functions and mapping as being the same thing. But they're not. Er let's have a look. [speaker002:] [cough] [John:] Two sets okay? [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] A is a set of kids in a class. set of names. Now... Michael, Tracey, Sophie etcetera.... So the elements of this set are kids. In that case.... And some of them have the same name. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Now erm let's say they've all got names.... Okay there's, no one is called Sophie. That's, that's a picture of the mapping. It's just a tie up, between elements of one set, and elements of another set. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] If you've got more than one element of one set, mapped to the same element of another set, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] yeah? You've got a many-one mapping.. A many-one mapping. [speaker002:] Oh right. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] If it's a one-to-one relationship, like there's only one person called Michael, there's only one called Tracey, there's one called Sophie, you've got a one-one. Okay. Right. Now those are the two important types of mapping. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] There are two other types. There's the one-many mapping. Where one element of this maps to, that's the one-many. Okay. And you've got the other one which is just a mess, which is the many-many. Right. Many-many is the real life mapping, it's what tends to happen. And it's very difficult to deal with. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So in maths and computing and everything else, we tend to split it up into many-ones and one-manys and try and sort them out separately. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. Now when, so two sets. A relationship between members of the sets. And basically we can draw a line between an element in one set, and an element in the other, and say that represents some sort of relationship. It can be, his name is, or, she is called, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] depending on which way you did the mapping. Er is that okay? That's a very very [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] quick, what a mapping is. [speaker002:] I can see the relationship. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] Where it can that apply? [John:] Right well a function [speaker002:] [cough] [John:] is a special sort of mapping. A function can be a many-one mapping or a one-one. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So if you get something like... Y equals two X. There's all your Xs in there. [speaker002:] And one Y is equal to [John:] And what happens there? Is this a one-many, many-one, or what? [speaker002:] Well it's only one Y, [John:] Right. [speaker002:] but it's got more than one X in it [John:] Ah. No. This is a set of numbers. X and Y are numbers. Okay? [speaker002:] Oh I see I see. So it's not, you're looking at it as two. You're looking at it as one-to-one. [John:] If that's a five, it maps to the number ten. [speaker002:] Right well it's one, so it's one-to-one. [John:] So it's a one-one. That's a one-one mapping, and that's a function. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Erm we might have another one, minus three, plus three. Nine. Okay this is [speaker002:] That's a two-one, that's a many-one. [John:] Y equals X squared, and that's a many-one. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Often in maths it'll be a, a two-one. But it's just, just called a many-one. Those two are functions. Right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] One-many, sorry many-one or one-one are functions. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] The other sorts are not functions. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm now if someone says draw a graph of this, Y equals square root of X. Well let's say this way. Y squared equals X. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right that's not a function. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Why not? [speaker002:] Because there's Y squared Y and Y. [John:] Erm... what value, if these are... always look at it X to Y. Right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Those are the Xs, erm X is nine. sixteen. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] What would the Y be? [speaker002:] Four. [John:] That's one answer. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] What's the other one? [speaker002:] Minus four. [John:] Right. So this is a one-many. That's a one-many mapping, and it's [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] not a function. Now most of the stuff that we're, just about all the stuff that we're dealing with are functions. So before even we get to, is it continuous functions? Is it even a function? So that's not a function. If we chop one of these out. And we say we say something like, Y maps to the positive or you can say the negative square root.... Okay? Y maps to the negative square root of X, that's a function. Y maps to the positive square root of X, that's a function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But just stated like that, it's not a function, because it's a one-many. [speaker002:] Cos you never [John:] Eh? [speaker002:] know with a root [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] whether it's positive or negative. [John:] Yeah. Now this comes into [speaker002:] [cough] [John:] when we start with, when we get onto inverse functions. Have you done inverse functions? [speaker002:] I don't know. I don't think so. They don't ring a bell. [John:] Erm well they're part of the G C S E syllabus. [speaker002:] Mm. I think I've probably done some point or other. [John:] So, yeah. Erm a typical thing they, they give you is, so you're happy with [speaker002:] That. [John:] mappings? And a function those are functions. Okay. Many-one and one- one. Put this on the back here functions on. If you, let's say we have erm something like, Y equals X squared. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Right. That's a function. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] It's a, what sort of function is it? Is it one-one or a, a many-one? [speaker002:] It'll be it won't be a one-one. That's got more than one value in it. [John:] That's got, that's got one value. You're okay, you're this function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] You're that function. I give you the input and you tell me the answer. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm six. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] What would you give me? [speaker002:] Thirty six. [John:] Okay. Five. [speaker002:] Twenty five. So it's one-one. [John:] Minus five. [speaker002:] Still twenty five. [John:] So there's, it only needs any two numbers anywhere in it, to give one number. Right? [speaker002:] Yeah? [John:] And that makes it a many-one, that's, in fact that's many-one for [speaker002:] right. [John:] every value you can give it. So that's a many-one function. Now when you try and get the inverse function. To come back, take the square root of X, to find out what Y is, that's not a function. And they, they will give you things like this and say, find the inverse function. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So as that stands, just take the square root of X, not a function, and you'll have to restrict it. And say, well we'll either if we restrict this. See you don't restrict the [speaker002:] When it is a function. [John:] the value of X here. You restrict the value of X when you start off. So let's have a look at this. We've got positive and negative numbers here. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. And there's plus five, and there's minus five.... Now what can you th th this is all the real numbers, right? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] What can you say about X squared?... [speaker002:] That's positive [John:] Always positive. Right. So you'll only get the positive. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So there's no way of getting back, with the inverse function, to any of these. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] If you're going to take the positive square root. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] When it comes back. If you take the negative square root, there's no way of getting back to these. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So the only way that you can make, I mean this is a function. That's a function as it stands. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] It's a many-one. And if they want the inverse function as well, then you've got to restrict the function, the first forward function [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] yeah? And you've got to say, that, we'll restrict this, right, restrict it to all the negative numbers. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So the forward, function is Y equals X squared, which always gives you a positive and then the function comes back, it's coming back that way, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] will always give you the negative... square root of that. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Minus the square root of Y, will give you the X back that you started with. Or you could make it the positive, but you can't have both. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So most important thing about functions, is what sort of functions is it a one-one or a many-one? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So the first thing, is it a function, the first thing, and then two, if it is, is it many-one... or one-one? Right. And if it's many-one,... does the inverse exist?... Right, now if it does, and it's many-one, yeah? [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] If the forward function... many-one, then you've got to change the forward, you've got to restrict... the input. Okay. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Erm so you restrict acceptable values of X. Say we're not going to accept any negative numbers in this. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. And then it'll work both ways. You can square it, gives us plus twenty five, come back, take the square root, it'll give us plus five. Ignore the negative square root, because something that gives you two answers, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] is not a function. Okay. coming back would be one-many not a function. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. So this, restricting the input, is one of the things that we get on, inverse functions. You restrict the input, to the forward function, [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] so that when you come back, there's only one thing to come back to, there isn't a choice of two. [speaker002:] It doesn't matter though because you, you put it down as negatives. [John:] Doesn't matter which one. [speaker002:] It doesn't matter which one. [John:] What, what you have to say here, for this one, right, we restrict X to say X is less than the of zero. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right then that'll be the inverse. If we'd have had X greater than or equal to zero, right? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Then the inverse would be....... square root of X [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] coming back. It doesn't matter which way you do it, but you can't have both. Because coming back won't give coming back [speaker002:] No [John:] won't give functions. So... erm a many-one function, usually be a two-one, and will usually be symmetrical. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So if you think of what Y equals X squared looks like, yeah? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] It's symmetrical because for... minus and plus five, you get the same value of Y. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So one way of just looking from the graph and sort of... re reminding you, oh, hang on, we've got a many-one here, we haven't got a one-one. And it's symmetrical. And usually, the even powers of X, or anything, even powers of X plus something else, is going to have some sort of symmetry. Okay. So that's a little quick rundown of what a mapping is, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and what a function is. Erm... so what are the important things about a function then?... [speaker002:] Erm I don't know. [John:] Have a guess. [speaker002:] Erm [John:] What sort of functions can you have?... [speaker002:] You can only have those that you just said. [John:] Which are what? [speaker002:] Many-one and one-one. [John:] Many-one and one-one. Okay. Erm now what about this continuous thing, what's that all about? [speaker002:] How do you mean? [John:] Functions being continuous. [speaker002:] Oh. [John:] What's that about? [speaker002:] Do you know like, the relationship is [John:] Erm well anything you like about what continuous, what a continuous, properties of continuous functions. And what's the opposite of a continuous function?... Okay if it's, if it's not continuous, it's discontinuous. [speaker002:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right. What's the difference between a continuous function and a discontinuous function?... Go on say what you [speaker002:] one goes on, and one stops. [John:] One stop. Okay. A dis a discontinuous function has got a at least one point of discontinuity. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] There's a point where something weird happens. It usually flips from one range to another, but, but mainly, there's a point where the function doesn't exist. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Erm, why doesn't it exist? Because it's not defined. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's not. There's no mathematical way of defining it at that point. Erm the maths breaks down, it's not valid. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And that nearly always means. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So how would you, if I just gave you an equation, of a function, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] what would you look for, if you were looking to see whether it was continuous or not? [speaker002:] I'd probably look like on the, on the others, [John:] Yeah. Right you'd look at the bottom of the fraction, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and what are you looking for there? [speaker002:] What's gonna equal zero. [John:] [cough] Any values of X that would make the bottom line zero. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm and if it's expressed as a number of factors, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] you'd look for a value of X that you could e make. Er what's the other thing that's likely to happen, around a discontinuity?... Something that you mentioned earlier. [speaker002:] He must have ran out with my copy before, cos this is different. [John:] I think he did, I think he said he'd go and get you another one. [speaker002:] No I said it doesn't matter cos [John:] Erm does it put you off with Mike there? [speaker002:] Mm sometimes cos i it does it doesn't put me off I get very self conscious [John:] Yeah. Erm this, this happens a lot, if I've got sort of kids and the parents are sitting in, useless. And I'm thinking, this kid's alright normally, and they're sitting there I should know this. [speaker002:] Yeah [John:] So [speaker002:] That's how I feel,. Well he, he doesn't I know he doesn't really [John:] No I, no I don't think he he's not gonna [speaker002:] No I know [John:] It's up to you. [speaker002:] It's if, if he criticizes me later on. [LAUGHTER] And erm No I know it's [John:] We were just discussing whether your presence is, is putting the student off. [speaker003:] Yeah erm I did wonder. [John:] It tends to be the case. Yeah it's just, somebody else there [speaker003:] Yeah. [John:] you're thinking, Oh I'll er er... I think I should know this and erm [speaker003:] Yeah. [John:] he's just told me, just told me. Er [speaker003:] get off now if you'd rather. [speaker002:] It's just you have er a habit of when Peter explained stuff, you pipe up. [John:] Mm. [speaker003:] I piped up? [John:] No I think it's a good idea to [speaker003:] Yeah. [John:] Erm the work with two students, very often the one that I'm not working with can be learning more, because they're not sort of, ooh he's gonna ask me a question. You know. And it's ea it's very easy to watch two people talking and think, ooh that's what he just said. He's just asking her what he just said. Easy. But if you're the one who's being asked [speaker002:] Sat there. [LAUGHTER] [John:] the question, you're thinking, ooh ooh no, which er is it important that I word this exactly? And you get a bit off-put. [speaker003:] Well I did have a thought [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [speaker003:] Why don't you do what John is doing, where he's Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. It's a good idea actually. Yeah. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] Erm Oh okay. [speaker002:] So you won't object to me [LAUGHTER] [John:] No I don't object to you taping this no. I was just gonna say erm that provided, provided this is working alright, you could just copy this if you've got a fast copier. [speaker002:] No I, no I, well I have, but mine's mini tapes. [John:] Okay. No it can be very off-putting. Even, even if you're just totally [speaker003:] No I did think that myself. [John:] in the background. [speaker003:] I didn't intend [John:] Erm [speaker003:] sort of staying that long anyway. [John:] Yeah. Because especially when someone says, you know, this is what a continuous function is. Now what's a continuous function? And the person who isn't being asked just trot it all out exactly what I've said. [speaker003:] Yeah. [John:] Even if it doesn't mean anything [speaker003:] they don't have to understand it, they just have to remember the words, yeah. [John:] [cough] Er it's, could be very.... [speaker003:] So how are you? [John:] Oh very well.... I've got too much work to do. Got er enormous assignments to do. Which should have been done a long time ago, and I've been given yet another extension. Right. Okay. So... what's the other thing that happens round a discontinuity? That you were saying your lecturer explained about one- one session in the first half an hour?... You went, you went to his lecture? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] He gave one lecture on this topic. [speaker002:] The asymptotes? No he, he, I didn't make that lecture. He summed that up in one lecture. [John:] No. Yes. Okay. Right. [speaker002:] But I'd missed that one. [John:] Right. Okay. [speaker002:] And it wasn't until I got back that they'd said he was doing asymptotes. Right. [John:] Right. Well that's h what [speaker002:] How do you get them? [John:] That's what often happens, round a discontinuity. Doesn't always happen. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm if, if you have a function, erm right, a function is a mapping, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] a mapping is, you start off with one set, and you have another set. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] They don't have to be numbers, they can be people, trees, names whatever you like. And there's some tie up, you could, you could draw a picture, and draw a line from one to the other. Say, that maps onto that. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] map onto people mapping to names. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm now... a function... is what sort of mapping? [speaker002:] Er many-one. [John:] Or? [speaker002:] One-one. [John:] [cough] The one-one is easy to deal with, the many-one. You can, you can do lots of functions with numbers. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And we tend to maths numbers. [LAUGHTER] We concentrate on the ones that are numbers. But the properties of mappings and functions apply to other things. Erm we'll also tend to work with continuous functions. Nearly all the time. Most of the stuff you've met so far is continuous functions. So you tend to think, all functions are continuous aren't they? It's obvious, you know. [speaker002:] No. [John:] They're not continuous. Erm so you're, you're a function generator, I'll give you a number, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] you do the function to it, and then you pass it back to me. And your function is designed as, when I give you a number, you give me the nearest integer, which is just above it. Which is equal to, that's equal to it or just above it. So one point two? [speaker002:] One. [John:] Just above it. [speaker002:] Oh you mean one point [John:] Nearest, nearest inte nearest integer above it. [speaker002:] two. [John:] Right two, okay. One point three? [speaker002:] Two. [John:] One point nine? [speaker002:] Two. [John:] Right one point nine recurring? [speaker002:] Two. [John:] [cough] Okay. Two point two. two point fifteen zero one? [speaker002:] three. [John:] Well it depends how you defined it. I mean I said, the erm it's the nearest integer which is equal to it or above it. [speaker002:] Ah. [John:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] We're not talking of rounding, we're just talking of a function that's made up. [speaker002:] Yeah [John:] Right. So if you draw a graph of that, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] There's X and Y and erm... one, two, three, there. Nought goes up to one, well nought is actually nought [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] Just after nought goes to one. [speaker002:] One. [John:] And then it suddenly jumps, two, then it jumps to three, then it jumps to four. And at these points here, infinitely small little region of the graph there, where the graph doesn't exist. Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] There isn't any asymptote. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] It's just a ser a little staircase, a series of flat short straight lines. That's a function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's got one input, and it's got one output. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] It's a one it's a one-one function. Doesn't look like a function, but it is a function. So maps to nearest integer equal to or above, nearest integer greater than or equal to X.... [speaker002:] Erm [John:] Did I say it's a one-one? [speaker002:] Yeah. You said this is like these are one-one functions. [John:] Did I? I'm sorry if I did. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Tell me, is that a one-one function? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well I wouldn't have thought it was a one-one function. I'd have thought it was many-one []. [John:] So many-one. [speaker002:] many-one. [John:] well I've given many, many different answers here, I could have been here all day, giving you just between point five and point six, and you'd have been giving one as the answer every time. So no [speaker002:] So it's many inputs to one answer. [John:] That's it. [speaker002:] And one input to one answer. [John:] Right, and that's a function. There are other things which are mappings, one input many answers. [speaker002:] I've never recall doing anything like this before. [John:] Well [speaker002:] Unless [John:] you possibly did it at G C S E in about three minutes. Well these are mappings, we don't bother with them, but here's functions, that's what we do really concentrate on. And even then, you probably wouldn't have bothered with discontinuous functions. He'd say, here's a function, Y equals X squared. And it, it is continuous and it looks continuous. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And you just assume, well they're continuous aren't they. So when you come to discontinuous [speaker002:] I mean there, there are [John:] functions it sort of throws you a bit. [speaker002:] Yeah. There are things that I have thought to myself about these. Where you have got a function because you can manipulate them so much, and turn them around, and I thought, there must be points along functions, where it is, it goes against the rules, [John:] Right. [speaker002:] when it doesn't exist, or when it is invalid. Because I know that's a part of maths is picking those points out. And knowing and understanding the [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] points. [John:] Yeah. The big erm you've probably seen proofs proving quotes, that three equals two, and things like that. And they're nearly all, all the ones that I can think of, are based on division by zero. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Now if you've got a function which has got a discontinuity in it, and you don't pick that out, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and you try and put those values in, you, you can prove anything. So the answer that comes out, is just rubbish. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Because somewhere, you've, you've done a division by zero. And this is sort of right at the beginning, by assuming that the function was continuous when it wasn't. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] was just sort of setting all up for yourself to fail really. You know set this trap for you. [speaker002:] I think that's what's the part of it all is because with maths, there is so many rules, there's so many [John:] Well [speaker002:] different parts. [John:] There's o it's, I mean if you think of languages, it's dead simple, maths. It's erm zero is not accepted as a number by a lot of mathematicians. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Cos it doesn't follow all the rules. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] You can do subtraction, addition, division, multiplication, with all the numbers apart from zero. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] You can't divide by zero. Now because of that, you can multiply by. Yeah, you can multiply that's fine no problem there. It's only the division by zero [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] erm because it doesn't follow all the rules, they say, well it's not really a number. And it's you know, some say yes, some say no. I tend to think it isn't. [speaker002:] Well it's a neither entity. [John:] It's er it's an oddity. [speaker002:] Yeah. It's a neither entity, cos it's [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] neither that side nor that side. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] And considering it's not just the band that it's on, it can stretch to the band [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] either way. Because it's so near [John:] And it's, it's, it's more of a number than minus one. [speaker002:] Yeah. It's closer [John:] I mean it's, it's real. How many elephants are there in the room? None. [speaker002:] None. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Have a look and see how many elephants you can see. Oh minus four. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] What? How many cars out, how many cars out there? Minus six. It's rubbish. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But the rules work very nicely. But they don't work for zero. So you have to be careful of zero. [speaker002:] Mm yeah. B I think what it is it's purely because, in electronics or when you're working out an equation, for a value for something else, [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] if you had a zero, on the bottom line at all, [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] then it is, it does, it's not that it's invalid, it's not that it's, it can't be, it's purely it's, infinite. And that's what you're taught in electrical in electronics. You say it's infinite [John:] Erm right. Okay well a mathematician will s a mathematician will say, if it's nearly zero, [speaker002:] No these are when the value is [John:] if it's as close as you like to zero, [speaker002:] Aha. [John:] then it's infinite. If it's actually zero, who knows. We d our rules don't cover it, we don't know. You're in the realm of sort of metaphysics then, it's not maths any more, it's division by zero. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] For all practical purposes, you'll normally get an asymptote. And you'll say, well it's getting closer, as it gets closer and closer to zero it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger, so when it gets to zero, it'll be infinite. I mean a simple thing is erm, if you, if you spin something like that for example. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] As it goes r you've heard something sort of er say an ashtray going round on a hard surface. And at the point of contact, goes round faster and faster. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Now what happens when it's going faster and faster, you can graph it, and you can see it going right up. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] What happens when it's absolutely stopped? Does that mean that the point of contact is now whizzing round infinitely quickly? [speaker002:] No. [John:] yes no. Who cares. It doesn't matter. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's just that what it means is, our model has broken down. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. Our mathematical model of what's happening erm gives us a bit of a silly answer really. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] That point of contact is whizzing round infinitely quickly. Doesn't look as if it's moving at all to me. It's not moving it's just that the model, when it gets pushed to its limits, doesn't work any more. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm so whether you think of it as the point is now whizzing round infinitely quickly, or it just stopped, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] it was really going faster and faster and faster and suddenly it stopped dead.. It's a discontinuity. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So... there's the real world [cough] and there's maths. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It's like that with everything there's [John:] Well [speaker002:] ideal, and there's what really happens. [John:] Maths explains things very well, up to a point. As long as you stick to the rules. And there's two, two main rules. One, does the maths faithfully follow the real world? Does it model it correctly? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Yes, that's okay. And then there's the other rule,i is it valid within the rules of maths? And when you come up against it, division by zero, it's not. And whether it's electronics or physics or maths or anything else, erm when you get to the point where you're dividing by zero, you have to say well now we leave the, the mathematical model, and we just go back to the common sense model. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right. So I mean, what do you mean by infinite, in a circuit? To get zero resistance for example. In a [speaker002:] Well it [John:] straight circuit. [speaker002:] It's not ze zero [John:] Have you got infinite current? [speaker002:] Yeah basically. It's not bec the relationships [John:] Well what have you got infinite current? [speaker002:] Well no no. We wouldn't have infinite current. [John:] Okay. I mean you start off with a, a fixed quantity of electrons that you can push down this superconductor. [speaker002:] Mm. What it basically is I think, is that potentially it can be infinite, because there is not [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] a fine line [John:] What's infini what's infinity cubed? [speaker002:] That's still infinity. [John:] So it's a very, it's [speaker002:] I think that's [John:] a very imprecise idea, this infinity. [speaker002:] Well that's that's what it is. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It's because it's imprecise that they, they refer to it as being infinite. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Because it's unmeasurable. It, potentially it can go to infinity. [John:] Erm, right, not necessarily. Erm I mean if you were working with erm solid state circuits, and you're talking about microamps, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] someone puts a hundred amps through it. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] That's infinity. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well it is but [John:] If you're talking about power transmission, right, and somebody puts [cough] erm two hundred kilowatts [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] down a wire, well that's a small value. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm [speaker002:] But I think that [John:] So infinity just depends on what's big enough to swamp the little bit that you're looking at. And there's all different types of infinity. [speaker002:] But usually I think ours have been it's more it goes down to, not actual being but a an actual reading, it goes down to potentially what it's capable. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] Or p because you can't take a measurement for, there is a relationship between whatever's going on, but you're looking at so many different functions within one actual function. [John:] So it's coming back to functions again. That you've got to look at little bits at a time. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] If there's any discontinuity, you'd normally look either side of it, [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] and see what's happening. I mean, with the Y equals one over X that we were looking at on Friday. Like that on one side and like this on the other. How do they get from minus infinity, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] bigger than any number you can possibly think of, to plus infinity, with the tiniest change in X. That you could imagine. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] I mean tinier than that, tinier than that, and it just flips. Well round about that point, We've got to be very careful because, we've got to be very careful about interpreting the model as reality. Right and this [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] is where a lot of the problems come in. If you get into the maths, you get into the model, and you start thinking of it as reality erm even in a circuit, say simple things like Ohm's Law. It's a good approximation, but it's not true, cos the more current you put through, the resistance goes, the temperature goes up, so the resistance changes. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So it's not true, but it, you know, it's good enough, it's a very good approximation. Erm but you get some circuits where the only thing you're interested in is the tiny deviations from Ohm's Law. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So it's, it's looking at very small parts of the graph if you like. Very small [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] areas of the function, where things that are a little bit out of the ordinary start happening. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And when it's things like division by zero, that's the time to, to s back off and say, well, we've got a model that works, that side of zero and that side of zero. When it's actually zero, forget about the model, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] because the rules that we've made for ourselves in maths, er we will, we're about to break those. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So we just get away from the model now, and see what happens in reality. And it might be that infinity is a hundred amps, or [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] two amps or erm five years if you're talking about charging up a capacitor or something. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's you know, if you're talking in milliseconds and then you go to five years, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] that's infinity. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] But it's easy to get carried away with these, oh well infinity infinity, is still infinity. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's just something which is so big, that for the problem we're working on at the moment, you'd be there forever, or you'd be there from here to the moon or something. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's just something that's very big, compared to what we want. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] I don't really think that should erm I mean half of it is not true anyway. [John:] [LAUGHTER] half of it's not true and the other half is lies. [speaker002:] Half of it, no where there are so many and so much in electronics which conflicts with one another. And the same with electrics. [John:] Yeah but, so your electronics is a complicated subject and erm... I mean if you just go to quantum theory, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] something can exist in, at that energy level or that, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and nowhere in between. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Well how does it get from one to the other? [speaker002:] Well it jumps. [John:] Well it jumps. Well don't you see it going past, if you stood in the middle and watched it, there it goes? [speaker002:] No. [John:] Well why not? [speaker002:] Because it's an energy that you cannot see. It's a potential energy [John:] Or measure or [speaker002:] You can't measure it. [John:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You know that [John:] Well surely you could measure it as it went from one to the other? [speaker002:] No. You would know about it [John:] Okay, so we've got something that's a bit weird. Like this sort of this function of jumping. Right? Tiny erm you can't explain it with maths any more. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You can't explain it with the funny little rules that we have for how your potential and different things vary in your circuit. That breaks down. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And we've got a point where back off from that, say, well let's have a bit of common sense, what's happening here? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Mm. So it's, it's all about realizing the limitation of your model. So that people absolutely spot on, always. It's not, it's a very good approximation most of the time, it's an awful lot better than erm you know,wh what sort of current do you think's flowing in that Joe? And he sort of puts his hand near it, oh it's a bit warm, oh I'd say about a couple of amps. What about that one,. It's not very scientific. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So using the maths helps to get it more and more accurate, but there comes a point where it. That's, that's, that's what happens. So that's a weird function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right sort of you could, I mean you could do the rounding up function if you like, which is what we were sort of point five or above it goes to the next int integer. You could draw a function for that. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's a many-one. If you try and do the inverse function, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] it won't work. I give you one point two, give me two and I say, Well okay, you gave me two, now what did I give you. It could have been anything. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] But if I restrict my input to integers [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] one, one, three, three. Okay, you've got three. Well it would come from three. Now the only way to make that one-one, is for me to restrict my input to integers. And then you can get back, and use the inverse function get back, from your answer you can tell where it came from. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] But if it was many-one in the first place. Yeah? So that's the big difference in functions between many-one and one-one. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] It's recognizing the many-one. I mean I know it's obviously, it, it's got to be summed up and if you've got five inputs and you come out with one answer, you are not going to get the inverse of this one out. Because there are five inputs. [John:] So your on your only answer is, well it could have been any one of these five. That's a mapping, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] fine, but it's not a function. [speaker002:] No. [John:] And there are special things we can do with functions, and we need to make sure they're functions before we do them. the other thing is, functions split into ranges, which each ra each bit of them, each range, is continuous, but the breaks between the ranges. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Now erm, you're making some notes on what to look at when you're drawing the graph Right. Function. Is it continuous? whole range? If not, okay. So maybe erm... maybe up there. Put it in if you like, doesn't matter. And label it one, put that two. Is what sort of a, well is it a function, is the first thing. And then what sort of function? So is it a function? And is it a one-one or a many-one. And if it's a many-one, watch out. Alright? [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] if it's a many-one, watch out, cos you're going to need, what you're going to have to do if you need the inverse function at any time, [speaker002:] Is restrict [John:] i is restrict that many-one, choose your input so that it will make the forward function, a one-one.... Okay? So very simple function Y equals X. Y equals X plus two. No problem with that. Beautifully well behaved, you can see what it's doing, nice and continuous. the inverse function very easily. Unless... let's, let's say... erm Y equals X plus two. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Erm... you're the you sort of generate the answer so er if I say three,. Okay. Now if you got five, where did that come from. What must I have given you? [speaker002:] Well if it's something plus three, then you must have given me two. [John:] Right so to get back to what I gave you, you'll take three off. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm let's say, you finished up with zero, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] where did that come from? [speaker002:] Well if it's plus three, you must have minus three. [John:] Okay. Now let's say, erm only positive numbers are acceptable. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Alright? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm we have to restrict the input, I'd have to restrict the input to three. Greater than or equal to three. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. Erm so this, this is what happens in addition and subtraction. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm when you get you know, sort of, what's, what's ten take away eight? Well two. What's eight take away ten take away ten? Can't do it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right. True, you can't do it, if you're restricting yourself to a positive answer. cos you don't get minus two biscuits. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] You know []. How many biscuits do I get today? I've been very good. Oh, you get minus two. Okay? Or if you'd have been naughty, you'd have got minus six. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I think nuts. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. It's very eas I mean, you're, you're very happy with negative numbers. [speaker002:] No. [John:] No?. They do a very very useful job, we'd be lost without them. Yeah? Especially in circuits and things like that. But they're not real. [speaker002:] No. [John:] I mean, they're even called reals [LAUGHTER] but they're not. [speaker002:] No well I wouldn't have looked at them from that, from the point of view of [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] if you've got greater than, and you are taking away [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] then I would see, yes this is negative. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But I would not see it as when you're looking along the because that's the first way you're taught it. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I always find plus three or whatever. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And you're looking and what, what, what relevance is all this got to it because it's not, nothing's given negative, [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] cos you don't give somebody nothing or less than nothing. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's nothing and that's where it ends. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So that as you say, you don't get minus two biscuits, you don't get minus three apples, you don't get minus, you know nobody gives you a minus amount of money. You can't, it's not, you can't touch it [John:] Well the bank does. And it works. [speaker002:] No no th the bank says that you, you owe them. [John:] So it's just switching it the other way round. So what's minus one. Really, it's an operator that rotates a vector through a hundred and eighty. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Your vector is, your vector's which way the money's going. [LAUGHTER] And minus one rotates it. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Puts it the other way round. [speaker002:] Mm. Yeah. [John:] Which brings you on to what's the square root of minus one? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] what's the square root of minus one? [speaker002:] You can't have a square root of minus one. [John:] Well you use it all the time in electronics. [speaker002:] You cannot have J minus one is, well no we use [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] J as a minus one [John:] Well yeah. Okay. [speaker002:] because they realized that they needed it to invent something to fall in to what they've already got. [John:] . So they needed to invent negative numbers. So they invented them. [speaker002:] I meant [John:] I mean, we don't like saying, we can't do it, in maths. So we say, oh well, we can do it, but we'll have to invent another sort of number. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And there aren't many [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] extras that we have to bring in. [speaker002:] It's like matrices. I mean, I know that's a method of of counting [John:] Erm okay. Matrices. Matrices... [break in recording] [speaker002:] well I mean it's [John:] And I've told you minus one is er an operator which rotates a vector. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] so what's the square root of minus one? ... There's a, there's a vector. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] this is any, any old vector. Multiply that by minus one and it becomes that. Now I'm going to, what I'm going to, what I'm going to do is I'm going to operate on it. some operator, that keeps the same magnitude, [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] but rotates it anticlockwise through ninety degrees. Let's, let's call this operator. Let's call it omega. Omega. So omega operating on V gives you the same but rotated anticlockwise. What happens if you do when you've got the answer there, you operate it you operate on it again with omega? Goes to minus V. So this thing... [speaker002:] Right. [John:] Okay? If you do it twice, do omega squared on it, and it's equivalent to multiplying it by minus one. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] as the square root of minus one. And that's the, that's the J that you use in your electronic circuits. Right? Now vectors are already a bit of a weird thing [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] without bringing that in. But negative numbers are more weird than anything you'll ever meet in maths. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right? But everyone accepts it. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Gets used to using them as if they're real. They almost, almost be over to the window, saying, look at those minus three cars [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] and, and wondering why people didn't understand. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm so anything to do with minus one, or negative numbers you expect weird things to come up. But that's, that's, that's all the square root of minus one is. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] You, you get used to the idea that all squares must be positive, so a negative number can't have a square root. Okay, well negative numbers are funny things anyway. [speaker002:] Well this is where, I mean this is like this comes into omega squared will came in to electronics. The J notation will come in [John:] Yeah no normally in maths you have you use I. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right, in electronics you use J. So it's A plus I B. For a complex or an imaginary number. Wonderful names. Guaranteed to put you off. What are you doing today? Imaginary numbers. Ooh we were doing complex numbers. That sounds hard. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] They're, they're just, I mean, if you're doing things like A plus B times A minus B, or X plus Y all squared, no problem. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Somebody else looks. What's that? Numbers. No they're not they're letters. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So it's, it's developing the degree of abstraction. So that you move further and further away from these nice familiar counting numbers that you learnt. saying they are, one, two, three, [speaker002:] algebra [John:] Erm [speaker002:] Because algebra is letters, and if you have got er something which is... you need a root of it or, you can do it with a number, you can't do it with a letter. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] You just have to put the indexes up with the letters to say what you're going to do to it. [John:] Er algebra is similar to, if you like erm if you think of English. You can, everybody who can talk knows what a noun or a verb, an adjective, an adverb and things like that are. And what the rules are to using them. But they don't know that they're called nouns and verbs. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And if you said, draw me a picture of a typical sentence, they couldn't do it sort of, noun, verb, and probably another noun. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] That's what most English sentences look like. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm well what are all these funny things, there're no words in that. They would say, oh yes, he went to school, she picked a cat. Give you millions of examples, but they're just examples, they're not sort of showing you the shape of it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And showing the essence of it, and what is true for all numbers. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] So when you go into the algebra, you're extracting what is true for all numbers. A times B, is always equal to B times A. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] integers. if you're talking about matrices, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] it's not true. But matrices aren't numbers. [speaker002:] No. [John:] They're a number are a set of numbers in a weird shape. so having things like division by a matrix, when the matrix happens to be zero. what does that mean? division by zero sounds like a good way out here. We don't know. Invalid. Get out. You know. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Good that's got out of that one. Erm [speaker002:] if I put that on my exam [John:] [LAUGHTER] Well I, I'd give you some marks for that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well I mean we're doing matrices and I know matrices sort of, comes into I can't remember wh which part of it, because it's I know it's later on it's about. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] But it actually comes in with differentiation, to work out circuits. And I'm really not [LAUGHTER] looking forward to that one []. [John:] No I, I wouldn't be looking forward to that [speaker002:] Because I, I can remember doing matrices on G C S E. Most of it, I can't remember. I can remember having a particular question, which is what's this matrix equal to, when it's the inverse of zeros?. What the hell? And it's something to do with getting the num the, the system so you've got zeros in and I didn't understand what the heck it was on about. [John:] Well they're probably just asking you, asking for the answer that I just gave you. What happens when the inverse is [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] erm when the determinant is zero. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And there isn't an inverse. Why isn't there an inverse? Cos dividing by zero. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] I mean there might be millions of them for all we know, but we can't find them using our system of maths, cos ours does not allow division by zero. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Because we try to relate it to the real world. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And division is sharing out between sharing it out into so many sets. You can think of it as sharing it out between people, share that ten pound out between ten of you. No problem. Share it out between none of you, the process goes on forever. shared out. You can't do it. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm.. [John:] Okay. Back to, back to functions and drawing pretty pictures of them.... If it's many-one, be very careful. You need to restrict input so that, so that they usually call them a forward function. So forward function, is one-one. Right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Then. Okay? Because if the forward function is many-one, forward function is many-one, then the reverse mapping would be is going to be one-many, which is not a function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So we're going to have. You can't, you can't, you can't have one rule for the forward and one rule for the backward, it's got to be the same rules for all, so you restrict the input for the forward function. So that makes it a one-one. And then the reverse. Well if, if the reverse exists. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] might now, might not always. Erm... for example you could have a function, erm... saying Y Y equals zero times X. So all the answers are going to be zero. X. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay? So you'd have to restrict that a lot. You'd probably just restrict it down to two numbers, zero maps to zero and zero maps back to zero. [speaker002:] Mm. That would be the simplest. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. Erm there are other ways of doing it. So... you're interested in what sort of function you've got. Is it a function for a start. If it is, is it many-one, one-many? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] If you're going to have to find the inverse, you're going to need to restrict it.. Number two then is, is it a continuous function? If it is, if it's not, then they will often ask you, for what range is the function for what or ranges is the function continuous? And if you exclude the points of discontinuity, then the bits in between often from minus infinity up to plus infinity [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Those continuous well behaved functions. Okay? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And on those points where they're not continuous, anything can happen. [speaker002:] So you know [John:] So it looks as if it's going off to infinity or something, but [speaker002:] On this bit here. This was your question. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] of X where you just want it is continuous. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] So obviously, it's not continuous at that point and around [John:] Right. [speaker002:] that point, and it's not continuous around that point. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] So would, what I was wondering is, is the continuous going to be, up to there and after there, or can it be up to there, in the middle [John:] mm right. So there's three bits. I mean probably, I haven't looked at that function, but it's probably from minus infinity, up to as close as you like to minus three. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] But you can't actually get there. [speaker002:] No. [John:] And then flip just to the other side of minus three, again minus three, plus the tiniest bit, [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And it's now, it's continuous again all the way up to but not including plus four. So when you give your limits, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Be very careful with your less than or equal, greater than and equal. Whether you put the equal or not. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Usually with these, with the discontinuities, it's going to be, don't put the equal in. Right so it's [speaker002:] Yeah, cos you haven't got a value, to equal it to. [John:] X less than minus three but not equal to it. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] Yeah? And then in this range, X will be greater than minus three but less than four. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Not equal to, and again, the last bit, greater than four up to infin greater than four you don't say greater than four, less than infinity. Greater than four. Erm that would be okay. [speaker002:] It was just, I wondered if, so if I get something along this line, I mean I can cope with something like this. I think. [John:] Well I, I think this [cough] two things about it. One it's it's the basis of, of maths. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's also the, the way to understand it, drawing pictures. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] Right? It's much bet better than thousands of words and equations and everything else, get a picture, see how it's behaving. Tt but everything we do is based on this, based on functions. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] All your electronic theory and everything else, they're all functions. Sine functions all sorts of [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right? Exponential fun they're all functions. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So it's a good idea to know what a function is [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] before you start doing it. And most people spend years playing with functions before they find out what one [LAUGHTER] is []. tell you what most of them do. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And they think that they're all continuous,. And that's when you really start getting problems and they start treating something as a continuous function, and it's not. Or treating one-one function and trying to find the inverse, and it's not. weird answers and erm I mean, it can have very serious consequences and you find you're working on a little discontinuity. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] And. [speaker002:] Mm. It does a does affect other relationships. So how would you sum up a function? [John:] A function? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's a mapping. [speaker002:] And how would you sum up a mapping? [John:] A mapping is a very very vague concept that just says, there are two sets, okay? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm you could s you could have two empty sets, but that's a bit weird. talking about nothings again. Nothing nothing mapping to nothing. Erm at least one element in each set. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And the simplest way of summing it up, is that you if you can join a line from one to the other. Which represents a relationship. So a relationship exists between an element of one set and an element of the other way of the other set. And there is a way of describing how to get there. Right. You could have erm a function erm everyone, let's assume everyone in the world has a name. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] some don't but let's assume everyone has a name. And you map to the first letter of your last name, say. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And you go to the, the dole office and they have all the alphabet out there, and you, you go for the letter which is the first letter of your last name. Erm [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] that's a function. So it's a mapping definitely. [speaker002:] Cos it's you and [John:] It's telling you how to get from your set, which is the first set we're talking about, which is your name, to the second set which is which box you go to, in the, in the dole. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] Okay? So that's a mapping. It tells you precisely how to get there. It gives you enough information, for you to know where you finish. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Which, which element of the other set, you're tied up with. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So [speaker002:] It's a relationship between one set [John:] A relationship. [speaker002:] and another set. [John:] Right. So you could have a relationship between parents and children. Say erm everyone has two parents. more or less safe on that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Everyone, everyone has two parent and erm so a relationship exists, a mapping exists. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] You map to say your father. Okay? to his father. chains of mappings. Erm so a child, every child in the world sort of, maps to his father. That's a mapping.. What [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] sort of mapping is that? [speaker002:] Well it'll be one-to-one, but I would have looked at that as many-to- one, because, one child has come from more than one parent. [John:] Well hang on let's erm, yeah. [cough]...... Here's a set, we'll make it a very small set so we can see what's happening. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And it's only got one father in it. Right. And we've got children.. There's a few. [LAUGHTER] Right. Each element in this set maps to its father. Okay? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And what's the inverse mapping? [speaker002:] Well you'd have to restrict it. [John:] It's okay as a mapping. Each father maps to many children. But if we want it as a function, right, I give you this person's name is Sophie say, and she maps to her father. And now all we've got, all you've got to start from is Sophie's father. [speaker002:] Mm. Sophie. [John:] And I say, well whose, whose the child I started out with? Well it's Sophie hasn't it? No actually the one I started off with is Greg. [LAUGHTER]. Yeah? [speaker002:] That's not a function. [John:] Erm so not a function coming back. It is a function going. One answer. Coming back, lots of possible answers. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Who is the child of this father? Could be one of the twenty three. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] It's a mapping. It's fine. But it's not a function. [speaker002:] Right. Now if I [John:] Okay. [speaker002:] just write in there [John:] So that's, that's, I mean you can give a very precise mathematical definitions of what we're talking about. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] But er Russell and Whitehead, don't know if you've seen Principae Mathematica. About this thick, several [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] volumes. And most of it is erm whether one and one makes two or not. [speaker002:] Right [John:] But it's a very, it's a very tight academic mathematical treatment of it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm but you don't need it. Cos most people will accept. Yeah okay, got that. [LAUGHTER] And another one makes three. yeah got that, yeah. Got several books on it. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] With all sorts of weird theory of sets and mappings and functions and everything else. [speaker002:] I know that I, I mean I is just at the moment going through the S A T S course. And that's been another thing that's been worrying me over the weekend. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] Because I've had [John:] Well the worry's not gonna help. [speaker002:] No but I mean, it's something that had to be dealt with, aside junior school and everything else that's applications getting made elsewhere. But erm I've spent sort of twelve months trying to cope with snippets about S A T S. And his previous teacher who was in the second year, is a really good, very conscientious teacher. And is all the children. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And what's to their benefit. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] This one however, the union she's in is not the union which is pulling out. And pushing [John:] It doesn't make a lot of difference. Erm for a long [speaker002:] I've pulled him out of it I pulled him out of it for the simple reason, he is the only one which is, I didn't want to segregate him on his own. [John:] Well [speaker002:] My opinion from last year, is that they are far too young to actually be put into this [John:] Labelled and screened and [speaker002:] But it's not just, it's not labelling and screening them it's [John:] Most of the, most of the, most of the teachers feel that there is far too much admin work to do with this. [speaker002:] There is. [John:] A lot of them are having nervous breakdowns or sort of ruining their family life because [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] of it. Others are saying, a lot of them for the last few years have been saying, this is ridiculous. I mean, if you think of say, the time we've spent talking about functions and mapping. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] It's a very important thing. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm it would normally be glossed over in about three minutes. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And then they'd go on to Y equals X squared, can you differentiate that? Good, right, well you've done differentiation. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Now have you integrated that? Good, well you've done integration. Right that's got that bit of the course covered. And when they come to the exam they're, how do you integrate this? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Erm there's too much in it. So most teachers are tending to ignore the national curriculum, and the tests and everything else, and teach what they've always taught. The basic stuff that they know they need, to go to the next stage. Because if they don't understand that, there's no point going on to the next stage. Cos you're piling more and more confusion. [speaker002:] You see I don't think [John:] So teachers I don't think are going to [speaker002:] They, they think now that they've got a feeling that this might be taken out, all these testing schemes and stuff because I said to them, While their argument is that while she's doing these SAT schemes, and she's following this, she's all worked up, [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] she's not teaching, [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] she's all worked up, she's all nervous because she's, she's trying to get through them and Michael is going er further and further away from his maths. Because she's trying to push m multiplication in, that doesn't come in till the juniors. He's getting it rammed in him now. So if he's getting that rammed in in him now, what's he missing out on? What part of it is missing? I'm having, I'm saying simplistic things to him, what is, ten and seventeen? Erm fift and he's still going back to the fingers. And I think, well this is okay it's acceptable [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but he's losing the concept of it and the understanding because [John:] Well [speaker002:] it's getting shoved in. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Now [John:] Just get him he needs to know, erm numbers that add up to ten. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right? Numbers that add up to twenty is a bonus. Which will help him. But numbers that add up to ten,. And a cut down multiplication table, where he just learns about half of them. [speaker002:] Well I've tried to explain to him, I've actually sat down and said, You have got, and I've done it in a way of, of sets. T trying to simplify multiplication because that I remember starting multiplication, [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and I remember going through parrot fashion with everybody else. Two times two is four, two times three is six. Now that didn't benefit me at all. Because come somebody saying, and just giving me them, I had to go through them all. And I think that's no good. [John:] five million people. [speaker002:] Well yeah, because you're having I mean, it's like nines. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It's simple at nine,twenty you know, it goes down, it's got a particular pattern. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So they're easier. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So if you can relate to something that's over five, you know approximately where it's gonna be. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Without being actually accurate. But you can determine quicker, the things between them. And I think, the way they're doing it now I don't know how she's teaching them, I know she's distraught. Because she's got the two and as she said to me, it doesn't matter in the junior school, he will take a teacher's assessment or a report with him anyway. So why put him under the pressure, she sa cos I said, I want to know what the long-term effect of me taking him out of this is, because, effectively I'm taking him out of something of the system, knowing, he's going to miss that. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] So I'm concerned, what effect am I gonna have on his future? And she's, well the effect that you're gonna put on him, is probably better than what the, the others that are sitting the S A T S course. [John:] At some time, you'll have to come back into some sort of a system like G C S Es if, if they're, I mean they might be changed, but there'll be something like [speaker002:] He's only aged eleven, he's only got four years before he has to have something assessed anyway. And to me, they cannot get an overall assessment of a child, sitting so many tests. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] They get confused the minute you say to them, there's a test. ooh. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And they go into a panic. [John:] [cough] [speaker002:] That's no good, because then the true worth of the child is not coming out, and at that age I mean, what had started it was last year I I didn't want him to do it. Because I thought, you know, at seven they're too young, they're still babies, they're not you know, they c the they make decisions, yeah, but they're still learning so much that you, they can't trust a decision that they make there and then. Now [John:] No but the big thing is that they only learn. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] er anything that's work, they've got built in resistance. Erm [speaker002:] I, yeah. I mean, Michael is extremely lazy anyway. [John:] The best way to do it is to get some get some coins or pebbles or something, and play, yourself [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] till he comes over and wants to know what you're doing. And it's a [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] game. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm you have to put them into use erm twelve to start with. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And see what patterns you then make. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Yeah? Twelve ones, one twelve, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] two lots of six in. And you can look at it one way, and say, oh I've got, I've got two rows here with six in, and space them out a bit so, or give him that so he's got sort of, two rows with six in, and you say, oh from where you're looking at it, it's six rows with two in. Come round, have a look at it, come this way. Oh yeah. Well how many have we got? Well it's still the same, whichever way you look at it. And let him find out three by four same as four by three. Factors of twelve are useful anyway. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Erm there's a tendency not to bother with multiplication tables too much, because you do everything on your calculator. And that's fine, until it comes to. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] And you can say, what's a third plus a quarter? Now if you get a kid who knows that three fours are twelve, there's no problem, but if they don't [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well this is where Michael is a he would rather, I mean when I say to him can I just do some work on you calc I say, no, cos you are not doing any work, the calculator's doing the work. [John:] Doing the work. Mm. [speaker002:] I s a cos I bought him a calculator but it was primarily for [John:] Well you can [speaker002:] checking [John:] you can give him his tables written out [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and or a calculator, and ask him, er not to recite tables, but ask him, five ones. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Erm and sort of keep asking things like three fours and four threes and five tens and. So he wor it's, it's very difficult to keep your mouth shut and let him realize [speaker002:] Yeah well [John:] what the answer is. I mean but when he, when they do discover it, when he does discover it for himself, he thinks, hey, I can do this and I invented this myself. Hey I can do it. [speaker002:] I mean I know through the summer holidays that I've really got to get to work with him on his maths, likewise I know I've got a lot of work to do myself for [John:] Well that's gonna [speaker002:] August. [John:] be your big problem I think. Concentrating on your own work. [speaker002:] It's time. [John:] Erm [speaker002:] Unfortunately, he's in the position whereby, although I have got my work yet the problem I face is not just now, it's come September, he is in a new school, he's going to have new people, there's new teachers, there's new rules, there's new policies. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And it's a lot further away than this one. [John:] Yeah, well the easy way for them to assess him is have a look at his tests, and if he hasn't done any, then they'll just assess him on what he can do. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Can you do additions, [speaker002:] He can do addition and he can do take-aways, and he's pretty, he's not so bad with them but I think what it is, is basically they're cramming them now. the ones who are, who have seen it all before, and done it from last year, because they had to split a smaller section of them up into the first year. So they've done it. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] They did it last year. So they're pretty confident. Whereas these Yeah. These coming up now are not confident and I know by, okay the girl is particularly bright, [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] but her and Michael are both being pretty equal to one another, for some time. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I don't think that by any standard that Michael is needs sort of, a lot of work, with his work. He is quick, he is intelligent [John:] The main thing is interested and motivated. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's with him, it's motivation. He is, if he can get you to do it for him, then it's done. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And he is [John:] If you get him to do erm addition and multiplication, let him use the calculator, let him [speaker002:] Right. [John:] have an addition table, made out. And h let him realize that he's remembering these, and it's easier than looking it up every time. It's great fun using a calculator when it's a new toy but when you've got to use it every time you need to work something out, [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] you start to think, oh three add one, next one up. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Erm give him that on a calculator, some things add one, [speaker002:] I mean [John:] all the time, and eventually, I'm not using that, and he'll just start giving you the answers, and when he does start giving the answers, keep on, let him get a lot right. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Because he's got this new system, he wants to use it a bit. Erm so you probably think, oh he's got it now, you've done two or three of them, let him do about ten of them, what's six add one?. What's erm what's ten add one then? Right. [speaker002:] We do have a terrible problem for some reason, when you get to the end of a number, any number block, whether twenty, thirty, forty, and you get there was a big block there. [John:] Well yeah. Because there is a, there is a big block there, there's a big change, [speaker002:] Yeah [John:] weird numbers [speaker002:] to another number, and that he, he used to get really stuck on ninety plus ten or ninety nine plus one. [John:] [cough] Do it with money, get erm about a pounds worth of pennies, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and ten Ps and pound coins. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And erm let him, let him add five pence and seven pence. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And say, well what's that? all these pennies. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right that's ten and two. What's twenty three and erm eighteen? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right I'm not, not having those pennies, change that for a ten. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] And I'm sure he'll be able to do that. And then he will just apply that to numbers. [speaker002:] Yeah. He does actually I, I've tried doing it with him on paper, [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] when he was, he brought work home. And he cut it in ten blocks. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] Now he didn't actually... to begin with, he didn't pick up the concept of counting in tens. [John:] Well he will if you, if you, you, he, he will if he uses money. [speaker002:] He, he does now. Yeah a he, he does now, he understands [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the ten, and two units are [John:] Yeah. And show him subtraction by counting off, erm you buy something for thirty seven P, and he gives fifty pence. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So that's thirty seven P, thirty eight, thirty nine, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] forty, and ten. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] It's a lot easier than subtraction, and it gets the answer. Erm [speaker002:] Yeah. Well it's something they can actually relate [John:] It gets them [speaker002:] to because they [John:] It's got to be something real. You can't talk to him about erm division by zero being infinity. [speaker002:] No. [John:] He won't buy that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Neither will I. [LAUGHTER] So it's got to be something you can relate to, and once the model gets too far removed from reality, he'll switch off. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] So it's got to be you know they [speaker002:] Because they can't see, it doesn't apply to them [John:] But better get back to this. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] Erm so you're okay on mappings and functions. [speaker002:] Yes. [John:] And your drawing... [speaker002:] That's what I was in. [John:] Okay? So you've got a function, you've got some expression that you want, and they will usually say, sketch in a function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] So you can probably assume it is a function, but you should check what sort of function it is. Erm... watch out for the ones. Then dis discontinuity, does the function exist for a whole range? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] If not, where does it stop. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? Now the next thing is, is where which values of X would make Y Well first of all, the easy thing is, what happens to Y when X is zero? Okay? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] What's F of zero? [speaker002:] Er do you want me to? [John:] Yeah. What is F of zero?... [speaker002:] What happens to Y [John:] When X equals zero? And then the next bit which is sort of solving the equation, is what values of X would make Y equal to zero?... when... when is F of X equal to zero? [speaker002:] Mm.... [John:] And the next thing that comes in is what you asked about, where are these points in inflection and these turning points?... Have a look at.... Erm what's differentiation all about? [speaker002:] [cough] [John:] What's differentiation all about? Why, why is everyone rushing off doing it all the time? [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] What is it? [speaker002:] It's a function of a function. [John:] Mm.... I could draw you a picture of that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I could draw you a picture of that. Yeah. Here's, here's a set one, two, here's a set of function here.... And Two of these map to one of those. So that looks like a function of a function. This mapping is a function. Is that what you mean? [speaker002:] No. [John:] [LAUGHTER] So t try to think of it as something a bit more real. Erm... there's a curve.... We want to find the gradient of the curve [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] at that point. Happy with what gradient is? gradient is a slope. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] That distance and that distance, use those as a ratio, tan of that angle. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Right. And it tells us whether the curves. So an interesting point is where the gradient does this. Right or the other shapes we've been talking about. Right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Now there's an easy way to find that out without plotting every point. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Erm cos if we differentiate it gives us the gradient at any point. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Right you can only differentiate a continuous function. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Well the another of function, a differentiable function. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Now if it's not, sometimes there are some continuous ones that [speaker002:] Isn't it the velocity? Differentiation the velocity of [John:] Yeah. That's a practical [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] a practical example of it. In the sort of pure maths, you can differentiate a function, your functions are split into two types, differentiable and non-differentiable, we'll just concentrate on the differentiable one. Er generally if you try and differentiate a function which isn't continuous, [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] the only way to do it is to split it into two continuous bits. And do [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] each bit at a time. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? So if we've got something like Y equals X plus one times X minus two times X plus three. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] Right. And someone said, draw a sketch of that. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? What's it gonna look like roughly? [speaker002:] Well it's going to be something like that cos it's [John:] Yeah so it's [speaker002:] Cubic. [John:] it's cubic. What happens when X is minus infinity, this weird number that disobeys all the rules? When X is extremely negative? [speaker002:] Y i is negative. [John:] Yes but what's this come to?. [speaker002:] Are they talking about such a large number. [John:] Right, we're talking about such a, all we got to look T I T the sine of X, and it's plus times plus times plus, so it's. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Okay? And so we're, it looks like X cubed. Right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Minus infinity, minus X cubed, and at plus infinity, [speaker002:] Er cubed [John:] Plus X cubed. Zero? X is zero, do you think we'd get [speaker002:] No. [John:] You think some number here. So there's some points right away? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Erm then what are the values of, so we've done... what is Y when X is nought? [speaker002:] minus six. [John:] Right so the next thing we'll do is [speaker002:] Is these. [John:] Yes. Which values of X would make Y equal nought? [speaker002:] Minus one. [John:] Okay so minus one. So we've got quite a, we know from this, that it's roughly er cubic. We know now where it cuts the axes. We know roughly what its shape is. The only other thing we want to find out, so we know it looks something like this. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] the axes are somewhere depending on these. Now the other t the important points of this are, don't forget these bits are very important. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Tend to get left out. People tend to do, well we'll do it from minus well we'll do it from minus ten to plus ten there. That's a picture of it. It isn't, it's just a very tiny part of that function. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Don't forget the outside limits. Where does this happen, because now that's very important. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Very interesting bit. Where it's going up and then it levels out and it comes down. It's going down, it levels out and starts going up again. Right. Right. Local minimum and local maximum. [speaker002:] Local maximum. [John:] That's not the highest value it ever takes, cos all these are much higher. [speaker002:] Yeah but that's [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] just going [John:] And that's, all of these are much lower. So it's a local maximum and a local minimum. In, in this range. Yeah. So how do you find those points? [speaker002:] I don't know. I can't remember. Is it differentiation? [John:] It is differentiation. So could you differentiate that? [LAUGHTER] So if someone said, sketch that? You'd need to differentiate this to find [speaker002:] isn't that one? [John:] Well now what are you going to do? How are you trying to differentiate it? [speaker002:] I don't know. [John:] So you're just doing one [speaker002:] Er you've got to work these out. [John:] Right so you have to expand it. Okay. So what's this gonna come to, the first two brackets? [speaker002:] Well it's X squared, and it's [John:] And don't be afraid to put those on when you're doing this. [speaker002:] I usually do actually. [John:] Right. Yeah. [speaker002:] I usually do because I'm not, he does a, a quick method which is sort of and I, I don't go to that because it's too mu [John:] Hopeless. It's no, it's no, it's no, it is much too easy to make a mistake. [speaker002:] With a little bit of extra time you can [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] get it right. So that's [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] gonna be a minus two. [John:] So. Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] Minus two X and then? [speaker002:] Er that's just gonna be minus two because I do it [John:] Oh I see. Right. [speaker002:] like that, like that, and like that and like that. [John:] Okay. So your next one is? [speaker002:] Well i there is a minus two X, then there's a plus one X. Right and er now it's minus two. [John:] Okay. Right. So X squared [speaker002:] X squared minus one X minus two. [John:] X plus three. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] switch it about, like we can with three times four and four times three, cos these are only numbers. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] That might be seven, this might be three. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] whatever it is, it's a number. Okay? So you can do the same on that. So if you do the same on that one, and then differentiate it.... [speaker002:] Now I'm getting confused now. [John:] Okay. [cough] So a sys a system. minus X squared... minus two X. Then we do this way, three X squared... [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] ... minus three X. And add them up. Yeah. And that's Y equals [speaker002:] Right and now I can differentiate that. [John:] Right.... Good... [speaker002:] No that has a. And that. [John:] Right okay? So where does these maximum, maximum and minimum come in? Well this i wh what does D Y by D X mean? [speaker002:] Well that's, it's the velocity of something [John:] Okay. If we were if we were doing velocity time graphs and things. But this is just a some [speaker002:] That's the gradient. [John:] That's the gradient. [speaker002:] Ah. [John:] Right. And what are we looking for there and there? [speaker002:] We're looking for the local minimum and the local maximum. [John:] Right and what happens to the gradient at that point and at that point? [speaker002:] They stop. [John:] They stop. It takes a special value. Yeah it changes [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] from here, it's getting closer and closer to a certain value, it reaches that value, and then it changes and then it gets to the same value again here. Right, what is the value of a, of a gradient that's absolutely flat, absolutely level? Not going uphill or down, it's just level? [speaker002:] Zero. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] So you put this to zero. [John:] Right. So you're looking for, values of X, that will make the gradient zero. And that's what the gradient is for any X along here. So what would you do now?... [speaker002:] Right, so we've got three X min plus four X zero. [John:] Yeah, erm don't just suddenly come out with it like that. [speaker002:] No. [John:] When the gradient equals zero. Right.... Then that equals zero. Right. So what values of X would make that zero? [speaker002:] Erm... [cough]... Well plus five would it? Are you looking for each particular turn, or are you looking for everything. [John:] Well which wh what gives you the value of the gradient? Erm, This D D Y by D X equals that. So if I said, X is three, how would you work out what the gradient was? What's the gradient, at the point where X is equal to three? [speaker002:] Erm [John:] How do you work it out? [speaker002:] This [John:] three times three squared, plus four times three, minus five, that would give you the gradient, three. [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. So this whole expression, gives you the gradient. You just put X into it [speaker002:] Mm. [John:] and it tells you what the gradient is. Now we want the gradient to be nought. So you've got to find some value of X that you put into there, and there, to make the whole expression equal to zero. [speaker002:] Nought. [John:] But look, that'll make it minus five. [speaker002:] Yes. Is there any quick way of doing this or is it just [cough] just trial by error? [John:] Well how would you no forget all about differentiation now, if I gave you something like that, three X squared plus four X minus five equals zero. which you've got there, [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] and I said, solve that equation. What would you do? [speaker002:] It's a quadratic. [John:] Right so what would you do? [speaker002:] Erm [John:] It doesn't look as if it'll factorize easily. [speaker002:] No it doesn't. [John:] And even, even if it does, it's often quicker not to bother trying to factorize it, because, especially in an exam, if you could

[speaker001:] Could you tell us what job you do in B M K? [speaker002:] In picking. [speaker001:] In picking? What does that involve? [speaker002:] That repairs any faults that's happened at the weaving or the spinning [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] or anything we repair them. [speaker001:] You're the last stage in [speaker002:] Just about, aye. Just about, aye. [speaker001:] Have you been doing it for many years? [speaker002:] Seventeen. [speaker001:] Seventeen. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right. [LAUGHTER] So you're the right person to ask the [speaker002:] Right, right. [speaker001:] question. Right. What we're go interested in is can you tell us anything about how, how you came to get the job at first. Was it because you knew somebody in the factory or was it the wages that attracted you? [speaker002:] Well I, I worked in Johnny Walkers, and when I worked in there at that time when you get married you had to leave, that was their policy, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] they didn't employ married women. So I had to go to the, like the job centre and they offered me this, which I didn't really fancy at the time. Er but I really like it [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] now, a lot of fol a lot of people find that surprising but [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I quite enjoy my job. [speaker001:] Have you met a lot of friends in here? [speaker002:] Er well I keep friendly with the people that I work beside but not outside the work. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I get, I have a different circle of friends outside the work. [speaker001:] Mhm, I see. [speaker002:] I like to keep it separate. [speaker001:] Do you ever do or anything like that? [speaker002:] Yes, aye. [speaker001:] Mhm. So [speaker002:] Oh I'll do anything. [speaker001:] If something happens in the work you'll maybe have a social occasion, to celebrate somebody's retirement. [speaker002:] That's right, or somebody getting married or, oh aye I go to these things. [speaker001:] Mm, gosh, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you find that the place has changed much in the length of time you've worked here? [speaker002:] Yes, aye. I find quite a difference aye, there's... I don't know in what way but, I enjoy it better. I find er... it's busier, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you're kept busier all the time. You don't get so much time to get bored or... fed up, and there's always something going on and everyone's in a hurry and I like that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I like to be kept going. [speaker001:] Is the actual kind of machinery in the way you do your job changed? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No it hasn't changed in any way. [speaker001:] Do you feel that you've got more or less job security now than in the past? [speaker002:] What do you mean by that? [speaker001:] Well, is it, you mean technology hasn't affected your job to such an extent that you feel that you know you could get laid off at any minute if they bring in something new? [speaker002:] No, I don't think, [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] no, I feel quite secure [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in my job, aye. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... Now I was gonna say do you feel that women are an integral part of the factory, there are a lot of women working in the factory, doing quite important jobs. [speaker002:] Oh yes, mhm, definitely do, I mean [speaker001:] Are there a lot of women bosses? [speaker002:] Well, in the department where's there women working they've got women bosses, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think it's a kind of policy they have, they've got to have women where there's women working. [speaker001:] Mhm. find out what's than [speaker002:] a man well personal things you've got to [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] up you've got to, it's easier to approach a woman [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] then a man. It's always been that. [speaker001:] Mhm. Do you have any nicknames for each other? [speaker002:] Mhm. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And are you going to tell us? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Er... there's one girl called Quicksoup [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Quicksoup []. [speaker002:] she never slows down, she looks busy and everything but she's not really, she just goes all the time and that's [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] her name, Quicksoup, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Anyone else? [speaker002:] Er no, not that I can think of, [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Do you have any special terms that applies to the job that we wouldn't know about? Any nicknames for machines or processes or [speaker002:] Not really no, none that I can think of. [speaker001:] Is it a job that you would need to really, you would need to be trained for it? You'd need to, you couldn't just bring somebody in. [speaker002:] Well there's certain parts that just the basic, like you could, I could go down and show you, but there's others parts it takes a lot of years [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] well quite a while to [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] if you get a hole in a carpet maybe you could put your hand through, it would take you quite a [speaker001:] Mhm, you'd be able to patch that? [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Aha, [speaker002:] Oh I think so, aye. [speaker001:] Do you ever go on any training courses or anything? [speaker002:] No, never. [speaker001:] Just within the job you're doing? [speaker002:] Mhm, when I started in here er I just got put up to work beside one of the women, she just showed me, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] as things cropped up at the time she just showed me how to do it, and I just picked it from there. [speaker001:] And is it a big section? [speaker002:] I think there's about seventy or women in it, but there used to be must have been about, maybe about eighty or ninety women [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to the, the picking. [speaker001:] Do you do a lot of overtime then? [speaker002:] Mhm, aye. [speaker001:] Shift work ever? [speaker002:] I've did er night shift once, just one week, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I didn't like that, er [speaker001:] Are there people work it? [speaker002:] Er there is sections, there are not very many women do... er night shift. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Just two or three, but some of them do the... er six till two, two till ten. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But we're er, we get a lot of overtime in our section, that's [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] where all the, the backlog of work catches up, anything bad you can get a good run then you, you just get a bad er run of carpets of the weaving [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] and that's it held up at picking. [speaker001:] Aha. And how do you feel the er the hours and pay when you started relate to how it is now, is it better or worse, do you think? [speaker002:] I just find it much the same [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] because, well I get paid off when the receivers come in, I was about three month out before I got sent back for... and er the starting wage was, I think we actually got a wee rise, I think we were the only section that got a rise, and everybody else got a drop. Because we were one of the lowest pays in the factory which we don't, our section doesn't think it's right because [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] we determine quite a lot of the quality of the carpet. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean, well it's like everything else you can miss a thing but that's [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] where the inspection comes in [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] to it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er we have to repair everybody else's bad work. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Have you noticed any kind of, like a kind of hierarchy within the factory, like you know one section thinks they're better than another section? [speaker002:] Oh yes, oh they definitely do, aye. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh definitely. [speaker001:] And who thin who thinks they're the best? [speaker002:] Well the weavers think that they, they're, they're the lead. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er weaving it. They don't think of us sorting, they just say, oh the pickers' ll get it. And er the spoolers think they're better than us, cos they get higher pay than us, they think it's... er... they're more skilled, it takes them to longer to train to do the job seemingly but they couldn't, we have to sort their repairs again if they do anything wrong it's us that have [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] got to repair it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Which we don't think's fair. [LAUGHTER] We've always thought that, that we should er at least be in the same label as them. [speaker001:] Mhm, so there's quite a bit of joking goes on between sections about this and. [speaker002:] Mhm, oh aye, mhm. And the, the, the laugh I had was er, the last time they were advertising for spoolers they, you had to have I think it was O levels or something, [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] never. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I mean what do you need O level, alright to be quiet with your hands and things like that, but how do you need O levels for a factory job, I mean. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And they say if any jobs come up at you would need it there. And to me that's not, I mean you can have, you don't need to be clever, you just need a [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] just need to be, och I don't know the word for it.... You can be smart without being clever. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'd have been, I didn't like the school, I didn't, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] I wasn't interested in, I liked anything you didn't have to use your brain for. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I felt the teachers had a lot to do with it at the school, if I liked a teacher I liked the subject. If I didn't like the teacher that was it I didn't bother. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But er I was always more interested in doing things with my hands, er... P E, music, art, all the things you didn't have [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So naturally I was going into. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I had no aspirations about [speaker001:] As quick as you could leave? [speaker002:] Aye, mhm. [speaker001:] Earn some money. [speaker002:] Well in them days you could, if you got fed up with a job you could just go and move on to another [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] job. [speaker001:] And were your mum and dad happy about that? Did they expect you [cough] to do that? [speaker002:] Ah they didn't, they knew I wasn't really interested in school, they were, didn't bother them at all. No they were just ordinary factory workers just the same. [speaker001:] Mhm. They felt quite happy when you got a job in here? [speaker002:] Mm. Oh aye. [speaker001:] And, and you're married? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Do you have a family? [speaker002:] I've no family, no. [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] You don't have that added burden. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No. [speaker001:] Just a husband to clean up after, [speaker002:] No, and [speaker001:] no? [speaker002:] and a wee dog. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aye, I've seventeen year of being married. [speaker001:] Where does your husband work? [speaker002:] He worked in here as well, he was a carpet fitter,. [speaker001:] Is that how you met him? [speaker002:] No, I knew him from the school. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Knew him for years and years. [speaker001:] Was that a good job, carpet fitting? [speaker002:] Aye, well he's started his own wee business up, carpets. Aye. So he's been in that's just about a year and a half now. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Er he's selling and fitting carpets, he quite likes it. [speaker001:] Do you get any perks in here? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I go outside and do er repair jobs if there's any you know, complaints in the carpets, they send me out, as long as it's within the kind of [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] er driving distance, but er, I feel that's a big perk. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it isn't really. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You have to face people er that sometimes not very pleased that you're coming, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] that there's something wrong in their carpet. Er but it's a wee break away, it's a wee change of scenery. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I quite enjoy that. [speaker001:] And what kind of holidays do you get, do you get a week at the fair? [speaker002:] Fortnight at the fair, and [speaker001:] Is it a kind of traditional thing? [speaker002:] That's it, aye, that's it, aye that's all. Usually in our section they've er you can work during the holidays. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because there's, there's usually somebody working in every section just to keep a wee turnover of things that's in a hurry [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] going. But I prefer to take my holidays at the, the fair. [speaker001:] Mhm. And everyone gets quite excited,. [speaker002:] That's right, aye. Oh you making your holiday plans for with all the brochures are due out shortly so [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] we bring them all in and, and when we go for breaks we look through them and decide where we're gonna go next year. [speaker001:] And where's the favourite place? [speaker002:] Er... America's very popular this year. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Florida? [speaker002:] Mhm. Aye. One of them's been two or three times, this was, I think this was her fourth time, so she went away to F Florida, away over to the Gulf of Mexico. She really enjoyed that. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er I was at Portugal, we had fancied going to America but er my husband's young brother and his wife want to come with us this year and they've got two young kids so they felt it was far enough for them. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. mhm, that's good. Do they ever hold anything down like the way they used to children's parties at Christmas and, and? [speaker002:] No, no they don't have anything. They used to have er dances as well every, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Christmas dances, annual dances, but that all stopped, aye. [speaker001:] Do you know if they still have a football club? [speaker002:] They still have a, a kind of thing within, I don't think they've got football but they've got a golfing thing going. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er, I don't, I haven't time for all them things I work twelve hour shifts. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mm.... Tired enough when you get home? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You just like to sit and watch the television? [speaker002:] Oh no, I've got to get my [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Get the tea made and, no no. It's all go. [speaker001:] Does your husband help and things? [speaker002:] Not very much I'm afraid to say, no. [speaker001:] Not in the [speaker002:] No, he's a bit of a male chauvinist. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And I gave up er nagging him, I just got on with it myself. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aye, there's a lot of them about. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you think you have a few views in common with your workmates or do you think that when you're talking things come out that you kind of like minded about things, maybe because of the job you're doing, and the place you work in, you know like... maybe like politics or something, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you'll all be sitting saying, oh I hate that Maggie Thatcher, or whatever? [speaker002:] Oh aye. Er they don't really bring that up much, [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] no. I must admit in the break I we like to do the crossword. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] We sit and concentrate on the crossword, we don't kind of, unless we get it done quick, which is isn't very often. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Er we concentrate on that, do my crossword and things like that. So I don't really have much conversation with a lot of them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Just the wee group of us, there's different groups go at a time [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and er that's what I do. I feel it keeps the brain ticking over. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] It's important [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, thank you.... No I've asked all them [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Have you? [speaker001:] Yes. [Ken:] Er, there's just one thing I wanted to ask, you ken how you said you were working in Johnny Walkers, [speaker002:] Mhm. [Ken:] I mean, how, how did they used to compare in the two, there was all these different factories, [speaker002:] A lot of them before that as well. [Ken:] ? [speaker002:] Aye. [Ken:] So I mean... w was there a s kind of like one that was... the one to be in if you could get in, and other ones that were maybe not so good or was it just going from one to another till you? [speaker002:] It was just going from one to the others, if you got fed up you just, when you left the school you put your name in them all and [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] just whatever one come up first you went for the interview and if you answered it you just took it. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] Well when I worked at, when I started off in the I quite liked my job in there, you made your own pay, and I liked, it was a starching job, I'd quite a good job in there. I got er timed in there with the, what do call them, they come and timed you, erm [Ken:] Oh work studier? [speaker002:] Aye, work study, getting my minutes caught in there cos there was, er but at the time I left there they was doing a lot of shifting about and they were talking about shutting the old sewing. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And it made everybody was getting shifted down to, so I didn't fancy working down there, we'd heard that much about it so that's when I left and went to Walkers. And then well I met John, when I was in there, started going out with him, and er... as I say when you get married in there you had to leave, so this, this was the next job they offered me. [Ken:] So you weren't too happy about that, getting shifted on? [speaker002:] No I didn't, no I, I don't really like change, I kind of [Ken:] Aye. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But I didn't like working at Johnny Walkers so I think it was quite a good thing at the time, although I didn't really like it I'm glad now that it happened cos I'd probably still be working in there. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er, I didn't like it, it was awfully boring. Really boring in there. And it was all just young girls, they were ov over catty with each other, you ken, it was oh, it was terrible place to work, I didn't like it. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] But as, as I say it was a job at that time and... and in fact I'd never, this was the only factory I hadn't fancied, working in was the B M K, and yet I like it the best. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think that was quite lucky I landed in a good job, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] something I like doing. Cos every... every day you're seeing a different carpet because they do a lot more contract now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] In the old factory it was just all like home market, what they call home market, it's the same [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] kind of carpets all the time, just an odd contract stuff, now it's nearly all contract, so you're seeing a lot of different carpets and it's more interesting wondering where they're going to, like America and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] all different places. I quite enjoy it. [speaker001:] Do you have quite a bit of pride in your work? [speaker002:] Mhm. Oh aye, I like, I like getting something that's a bit of a mess and being able to make a job of it and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I get job satisfaction at it, which I didn't get in any of the other jobs. [speaker001:] Mhm, and do you feel quite settled in the job? [speaker002:] Mhm. Oh aye. [speaker001:] In the town? Quite like the town? [speaker002:] Mhm, aye, I like. I wouldn't like to move to. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No I never fancied, [Ken:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and yet it's not really any distance, into. I'm quite kind of set [Ken:] It's [speaker002:] in my ways. [Ken:] quite a difference, all the same, isn't it? [speaker002:] Aye. [Ken:] But er, so how, how's the town changed, since you started work? [speaker002:] How's the town changed? [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh well it's all changed up certainly, you mean pedestrianization and all that? [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] Oh that's all changed, aye. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker002:] Definitely. I think... well there used to be three or four picture houses in the town, there's only one now. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] They kind of things you mean? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] I mean how, how do you feel about that, I, I mean look what [speaker002:] Well we've [Ken:] they've done to it. [speaker002:] We... we've just got a local we go to, which [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] we don't really... go about much, but I like the pedestrianization, I quite [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] like shopping in. If I'm looking for anything I prefer to shop in, but if I'm just browsing I don't mind going like out of the town, down to or up to for a day but, if I'm looking for something particular I prefer to stay in cos I know where to go. I think they've got quite good variety of kind of up market right down to, if you're looking for a bargain. [speaker001:] And do you think youngsters nowadays have got less opportunities than you had leaving the school? [speaker002:] Oh aye, definitely, mhm. Well they all getting encouraged to stay on. Well they're, I mean at least you knew if you didn't like the school you could go into a factory but I mean O levels for... doing the jobs we are, I, I think it's, we had a good laugh about that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Then that was one thing we had a good laugh at. Couldn't believe it, do you not think that's [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] a bit [speaker001:] It's just [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] No grey mass is not anyway. [speaker002:] It's not, you've got to be clever with your hands in most of these [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] jobs, maybe a good eye to pick up faults in the pattern and that but as for you have to be clever I think it's... senseless. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you get any particular kind of ailments working sore fingers and sore back? [speaker002:] Aye, sore fingers, hard, you get hard where you're cutting all the time in the shape, but apart from that, maybe scissors fall that on your foot and [speaker001:] Do you have to stand all day? [speaker002:] Mhm, aye. When I left in here at the... when the receivers come in I got a wee job in Centre, up the town, and I had, I could have got a job in a hosiery... in but I didn't fancy travelling down there, so I took that wee job up there. It was alright but I didn't like the Saturday work. It was a complete change for me, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] going into something that I'd never done before. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] the tilling. Counting out the money and that at night cos there's only two of us in it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But I coped alright with it. [speaker001:] work Saturdays in here now? [speaker002:] I do work, aye [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] just the Saturday morning, it's only [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] till quarter past eleven, it's an easy wee shift, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] quite a good wee shift. [speaker001:] Good. [speaker002:] But I've, I take my long lie on a Saturday. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's my day off.... Course saying in another two or three weeks I'll maybe not. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] If I get fed up and take another wee day off, maybe a Sunday or something like that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well in here you don't get double time for a Sunday,. Never good with their, good with their overtime hours but we're working at that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] So you're happy in your job then? [speaker002:] I am happy in my job, aye. My husband always gets amazed at that, if we're outside he'll say to people ask, do you know if she likes her job and they, he's amazed Ken that can [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] can enjoy their job in a factory but [Ken:] Aha. [speaker002:] I do. probably the only one. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] ... winding? [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] And what do you do in winding? [speaker002:] It's hard to ex oh it's, it's winding, it's hard to explain the machines, do you not get round and about [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] to see them? [speaker001:] We haven't been round yet so [speaker002:] You'd really need to see them to... I mean I couldn't explain it to you really. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They're automatic now you know, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] well we put the wool on and that but [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it winds automatic. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And cuts off. You really need to see them to [speaker001:] Aye, so how long have you been in here? [speaker002:] Oh since this firm took over, well it was not B M K you know but it was taken over by the [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the new man and that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But I've been in there since the beginning. [speaker001:] Mhm, and has it changed a lot do you think? [speaker002:] No, not really, no. [speaker001:] Not really? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] The job changed, the machinery's changed? [speaker002:] No, just the same machine we had over on the other side, aye, it hasn't changed at all. [sniff] [speaker001:] Mhm.... Erm I was going to ask you? Er how did you get the job at first? [cough] Was it somebody that you knew that worked in here? [speaker002:] No, not really.... That was a case, I worked in a hotel for years and years and it closed down with the new bypass and that, and just a girl beside me, she was coming for an interview, to the B M K and I came with her. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'd have never been in. [speaker001:] Mhm, and when was that? [speaker002:] Oh [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] er... sixteen year, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] aye, it's about sixteen year. [speaker001:] You've been here all that time? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] In the same job? [speaker002:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker001:] Do you enjoy it? [speaker002:] Oh yes, aha. [speaker001:] Do you have a lot of friends working in here? [speaker002:] Ah well, work friends, aye, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] oh aye, they're all quite friendly. [speaker001:] And do you keep up with them after your work? [speaker002:] No, not really, no. [speaker001:] Not really? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] I'm not really some of them do, the younger ones and that a bit. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Not really. [speaker001:] What's the kind of age of folk in your section? [speaker002:] Well I'm the oldest. [LAUGHTER] Er, fulltime, I mean the students here they don't count really. Who's the youngest?... [sigh]... Oh it must be thirtyish.... I think Caroline's about the youngest. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Aye, she must be. [speaker001:] [cough] What else have I got here? Oh, do you have any nicknames for each other? [speaker002:] No, not re no. [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] No we don't, [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] honestly. No. [speaker001:] Not ones that you talk about anyway. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No no, I'm being honest, no. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] No. I don't know about younger ones and that but no [speaker001:] Aha, [speaker002:] honest to God. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] No nicknames. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I don't know what they say maybe behind your back or that but honestly I don't think, no [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] there's nobody really got a nickname in here. [speaker001:] Aha. Mhm, have you any worked, worked in any other factories in town? [speaker002:] No never, no. [speaker001:] Just this one? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'm not from the town. [speaker001:] Mhm.... Where is it you're from? Oh right so you have to travel in? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] On the bus? [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Mhm... er... there's something else I was going to ask you but. [LAUGHTER] Oh aha, within the sections is there, is there some sections you think that feel they're better than other sections because they've got like maybe more pay or they feel they've special? [speaker002:] Oh aye, oh aye, aye, we feel that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And who's that do you think? [speaker002:] Any department. [speaker001:] Every department thinks they're better than the next one. [speaker002:] Oh better? No no, oh well aye but... you'll find out for yourself. No wages and that I mean it does vary from section [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] to section. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] And we feel we've the heaviest, not the biggest wage, kind of thing, you ken. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But I suppose there are other jobs have more responsible in that so [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] this is what happens. [speaker001:] Mhm, do you wear like different, can you tell by what the person's wearing, like do you wear different pinnies for different jobs? [speaker002:] No no, wear your overalls, just wear your own. [speaker001:] You cannot tell, aha. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And is it quite regular hours or do you work all over the time? [speaker002:] We work shifts. [speaker001:] Shifts you work, aha. [speaker002:] Just the winding that works the shifts. [speaker001:] And what hours is that? [speaker002:] Two till se, that's six to two, two to ten, and ten to six. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But that, we're the only one that do the shifts. [speaker001:] And how do you find that? [speaker002:] I like the more. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You'd rather have the [speaker002:] You get used to them.... Mhm. [speaker001:] time? [speaker002:] Oh the night shift's no bother. I don't like the back shifts. [speaker001:] Do you think the place has changed much since the takeover? [speaker002:] I don't think it's changed at all really. No. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Er are you in a union? [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Mhm but it's not [speaker002:] What for I don't know. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Just for more money that's all. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] It's not recognized anyway. [speaker001:] Mhm, what one is it? [speaker002:] Carpet Union. [speaker001:] Carpet Union. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And it's not, not everybody's in a union? [speaker002:] No not everybody's in it, no.... I suppose the ones that came from the old factory, you know were kept on and that [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] but new. [Ken:] So how many folk are working in your section? [speaker002:] Winders there's er five fourteen winders. [Ken:] Fourteen. [speaker002:] Aha. [Ken:] Was there any more er when you started working here? [speaker002:] There was only two when we started here. [Ken:] Only two? [speaker002:] Me and another girl. That was all, you know when it was transferred there was only the two of us. [Ken:] Aha. [speaker002:] And then they sent back for the... you know the, the ones that had been there before. But that worker she left, she got oh she wasn't married but she had a family. [speaker001:] Mhm. And do you get any perks, like cheaper carpets or anything? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] You're joking. [LAUGHTER] We get them cheaper outside. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... anything? No? Right that's, that's all we wanted to know. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] you got the name for

[speaker001:] Can you tell us what er what section you work in? [speaker002:] I work at the weaving [speaker001:] In the weaving? [speaker002:] section, aha. And [speaker001:] And what do you do? [speaker002:] I'm what you call a Axminster handler [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] which involves like when the frames comes off the weaving and they're yarn left, I strip the yarn off. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Off the, the, the weaving frames. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's basically my, aha. [speaker001:] It's quite spec specialized so [speaker002:] No no, no, no. It's not specialized, no. [speaker001:] Mhm, have you ever worked in any other factory? [speaker002:] Aha, I worked in spooling, I've been left now two year. [speaker001:] [cough] And how did you find that? [speaker002:] Er, I liked the spooling but some... I just don't know, some of the girls get kind of... one one thing by the other I can object to, I think it was actually the atmosphere of the, the girls that worked in the department that I [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] just objected to. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it was a good job. [speaker001:] And have you worked in here for many years? [speaker002:] Oh yes. Ca more than I care to remember. [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aha. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Unless it been, like I left from my kitchen. [speaker001:] Aha, and is this your first job? [speaker002:] Aha, aha. [speaker001:] You left straight from the school? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] And er what attracted you to the job, did you know somebody that worked here? [speaker002:] Er, no, we just like actually applied, like Saxone were, they were looking for girls then, Saxone, B M K, and this was the, the, one that [speaker001:] And how did you do that? Did you just walk round the factories and put your name in the office? [speaker002:] No no, we just er came down to Personnel Office and [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] asked if there was any jobs going. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So they took a list of, they took your name? [speaker001:] Your names. [speaker002:] Mhm. And then sent for you. [speaker001:] Right, erm [cough] so do you think the place has changed much in the years that you've worked here? [speaker002:] Oh factory-wise, aye, aha. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean it's, it's gonna seem, it was an awfully big factory over there, it's a different factory entirely. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] More like a big shed here. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's all it is. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But you cannot expect... I mean we was actually lucky there was a job there now, when it closed down. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I was lucky the factory started up again. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm, er so how did you find arrangements when you left to have your children, did you feel that your job was secure? Did you feel satisfied? [speaker002:] I suppose a job more or less was always secure at that time, aha. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because it is a kind of semi-skilled you know. It was always more or less [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] secure. [speaker001:] And what happened when you came back, did you er wait until your kids were that wee bit older or did your... family [speaker002:] Well [speaker001:] help you out? [speaker002:] Nigel started a kind of evening shift, that you was there with your kids during the day and then your husband got them at night and you come out and worked at nights, so it [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] kind of works. [speaker001:] Oh that's [speaker002:] Well that was, mhm. [speaker001:] And are you from? [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker001:] Are you from? [speaker002:] Aha, aha. [speaker001:] And so was it, do you just travel er the bus? [speaker002:] It's er I stayed up like, aha, in Street at the time you know. So it was quite convenient. [speaker001:] So were there any, nowadays you know if there's any opportunities to come back part time, if you've got small children. [speaker002:] No, there was nothing like that, no, I think there's only one girl I've ever part time. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's started up again. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] We work, to my knowledge only one girl. [speaker001:] Mhm.... Erm so do you feel that in the years that you've worked here are women just as important in the factory and make up a large part of the workforce now as they, as they've ever done? They do important jobs in the factory? [speaker002:] Well I think actually not as, as, as many as there were the, like in the other, years ago, but that's to be expected nowadays. I would say there were more men in important jobs in here than there is [speaker001:] Mhm.... Does that ever cause any resentment if there's, you know if the, a man's a head of a section where there's a lot of women who maybe feel that you could do the job as well? [speaker002:] No it's more petty things that's resented than actual, the actual [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] job, it's just petty things that [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] like obsessed girls you know. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] If one gets a better design, if one gets bobbins and the other doesn't get the, they just scrap, you know, [LAUGHTER] scratch one another 's eyes out []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Is there a lot of that? [speaker002:] Oh ye you'd actually think they was making their own pay the way they carry on, I mean [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] you've got to. It doesn't matter what job, but there's a wee bit resentment among just the girls themselves. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Aye, and have you any nicknames for people in the factory? [speaker002:] Oh y we used to have the Sisters. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They retired a fortnight ago, [LAUGHTER], called the oh aye there are a few nicknames for them, including the Sisters. [speaker001:] Anybody else? [speaker002:] Erm... they call me Doughnut, which I detest. [speaker001:] Why's that? [speaker002:] My name's and my sons get called Doughnuts so I get called Doughnut. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm, no just to kind of or the wee one or something like this, aye,. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm.... Or the biggie. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh bi aye, the big one. Mm, biggie. [speaker001:] Aha. Mm. Yeah, what else? Oh do you do anything? Do you ever keep up with people outside work? And have you made any friends that you do things, maybe go for a drink or? [speaker002:] Well actually before we come here, like back here we've had weekends in Belgium. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And weekends in London. And we're booked up to go and see Cats in January, oh we've quite a few and then like, there actually spooling's quite good at organizing for er charity. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And we have nights out and things like this, for that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh definitely. [speaker001:] And what do you do, do you just put so much a week in a kitty for that? [speaker002:] Well if we're going to be [speaker001:] somewhere. [speaker002:] No, we used to actually actually do that, like you had nights out, maybe Christmas and certain times of the year you had a night but that's kind of stopped here. No, it's more like just save ourselves more [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] or less you know. There is a girl that collects money if you want to give her it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] She collects for all the charities and her, she's a great organizer, terrific. [LAUGHTER] She organizes everyone. [speaker001:] And do you get a lot of er pay offs and things in the factories now? [speaker002:] You get a few but not our bit, it's actually more at the picking now where all the young ones are. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] There not many, there, it's just them started, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] like er there's four young ones just out of spooling. [speaker001:] Mhm. And what do you do when somebody's er having a pay off, do you do her out and the [speaker002:] aye, the works, aha. [speaker001:] And is that done in the work? [speaker002:] Er no the girls take it home. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And do the quoting in their spare time. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] There's a lot of work involved in that. [speaker001:] And do they make up verses and things for it? [speaker002:] Mhm, [speaker001:] take her round the factory? [speaker002:] Round the factory, aye, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] aye. It's not changed. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No, how about the men, do you do anything for the men? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Grease and oil and you name it, mhm [speaker001:] Really? [speaker002:] Mhm. There was a big gi big woman once in here at the weaving, oh and she's huge, and oh she goes for the men, [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] she does, the works on the men, and we leave it all to Magda. [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] What was I, oh yes erm, do you find that like maybe like one section thinks they're a wee bit better than another section? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Because of the kind of job they're doing or the fact that they're getting a wee bit more pay? [speaker002:] They do, mhm, mhm, they do. [speaker001:] And who, who thinks they're best? [speaker002:] Erm spooling, I would say, department thinks they're one up on everybody else. Mhm. [speaker001:] . The cream. [speaker002:] The cream, aha. From under the cow. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And that's where I used to work in but that's the reason I left, because I thought actually some of them was getting kind of uppish. [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] this, that, and the next thing. [speaker001:] Mm, mm, anything else I was going to ask you, I think that was about it, was it? [Ken:] Aye, well I mean the social activities you used to have in the old place, were th were those any better than over here? [speaker002:] When we started here it looked er but we'll only get actually six weeks, said you've got six weeks work, that's all. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it's lasted about seven year, so you never can organ but once we did start I did enjoy the ones over here because over there when your kids were small you didn't go out much anyway but now that your kids are up you've got it, and personally I enjoyed the ones that started but they don't have Christmas dance, barn dances and things like this, they don't org we have to have to organize like that ourself. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But the work doesn't organize anything like that. [speaker001:] Did those used to be big things? [speaker002:] Mm, they used to have like big dances and thin in the Grand Hall of all places, [LAUGHTER] but music was once a year, things like that but they don't have that now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Did they used to have clubs and stuff, the [speaker002:] Oh they have er, we can join the cricket club,... like er B M K workers pay in so much and they are members of the cricket club. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker002:] You can go to that? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I don't think there was really that many [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] down for that. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. And do you get any perks like do you get any discounts in the town, through? [speaker002:] Aha, they'll say you get a card like d for the jewellers, and things like that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Jewellers,, not much mind you, but it's always helped. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You don't get any cheap carpets, no? [speaker002:] You're joking. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You're joking, we get our chicken and that's it at Christmas. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You get a chicken at Christmas? [speaker002:] We get a chicken at Christmas, aha, sorry a turkey. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] A turkey? [speaker002:] A turkey, we get that at Christmas. [speaker001:] To take home? [speaker002:] Mhm, frozen, and you've, by the time you've thawed it in forty eight hours, it's no use for Christmas time, that's what I've got against it. So you've got to actually store it till new year [LAUGHTER] cos you can't, you haven't got time to thaw it out? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But that's our perks, that's it. [LAUGHTER] A turkey. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] is it the fair holidays you get? [speaker002:] Aha, aha. [speaker001:] A fortnight at the fair? [speaker002:] Fortnight at the fair. [speaker001:] Mhm, what's your kind of favourite places for going? [speaker002:] Well the last f four year I've been abroad. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] We've been to the Canary Islands, and was er Bulgaria last year, I've been to Yugoslavia, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] oh, aye, places. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I like to try a different pace very year to see what it's like. [speaker001:] Aha.... And do a lot of people go abroad now do you think from the factory? [speaker002:] Mhm, mhm. But you have to work damned hard to, all year round to get [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] that fortnight, I mean it's [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] impossible to like if my husband and I didn't work. [speaker001:] Whereabouts does your husband work? [speaker002:] He works in. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm. You've to work and you've to work overtime and you [LAUGHTER] be round the clock. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You've to work to get that fortnight. [speaker001:] And do you find that if you didn't have the overtime then you, you'd be struggling with your wage? [speaker002:] Och, aye, because I actually dropped twenty pound coming from the spooling to the job I'm doing just now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Dropped twenty pound, this actually me on the bottom scale [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I work at just now. [speaker001:] But is it a better job do you think? [speaker002:] No I wouldn't say it was a, I would say it was far dirtier and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean before you used to have your own, your own, like the job I'm, I was started for I've got sweep all the... floor, the place where we work. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I've got to do that twice a day which I didn't know we actually had to do when I started it. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mhm. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] Aha, I would resent, I'd resent that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because I'm not kidding you, see that, I mean I've to buy big bags of it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Aye, I object to it. [speaker001:] And when did you move to that job? [speaker002:] As I say I didn't... I thought the girls was plus that fact it was a lot of concentration for the spooling. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And with this in this thing now that B M K's in, every had got to be spot on. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And you could easily make a mistake with the work, you get all worked up. I used to get worked up if I made a mistake, I mean, I weave and a nervous breakdown spooling [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No way. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So I thought then it was time to move. [speaker001:] Mhm, but so you're, you're quite happy in your job? [speaker002:] I like it fine, except for this brushing, I object to all this mess it's doing and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] things like that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's the only thing I've got against it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] But how do you feel B M K could other factories in the town, do you think it's a good, good factory to work in? [speaker002:] Well basically I see we get less holidays than every other factory. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean we're not allowed as many holidays as, as most of them, but then again it was starting up so we just had to take it that way. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] It's either that or you'd no job, and [speaker001:] Mhm, do you have a family? [speaker002:] But I actually think if there's more factories opened up in and thing, I think going with the talk a lot of men, especially men would, would look for jobs elsewhere because you don like in here the men don't get paid if they're ill. I mean [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you only get like, they ge the guys are on get pound a week if they're ill [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] fifteen pound at the most, they, in other factories they ge for six month men get their full wage. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Well they don't get that in here unless you're higher up the scale like a tenter or something that's, things like that. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] But down the scale a bit and the, the men don't get... I feel sorry for them I mean you've kids and everything. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The likes of us we've got a man behind us, but the likes of them I feel sorry for, they cannot actually afford to be sick and that's it. [Ken:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] So [speaker001:] Do you have a family? [speaker002:] I've two boys, aha. [speaker001:] And where do, where do they work? [speaker002:] Er one's in the, works for himself, he's brickie, and there's one works in the glazer. He, he used to work in here [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but he started in the glazer about two months ago. [speaker001:] Mhm, do you find that's a, a common thing that mothers and fathers' ll maybe get their kids a job in where they work? [speaker002:] Well I don't think they would actually but my, my sons are into, to trade you know. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it closed down it's closed so [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I just got him in here and then he got into, er the glazier. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] so it was better conditions in there. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] I mean he liked his job in here right enough but it was more money and better conditions in the glaziers so [Ken:] Aye. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] he bought a flat do he had to go where... he was getting, aye, more money, and then again as I say if he was ill he would get his pay for so long. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's just things like that just [speaker001:] You have to weigh up the pros and cons. [speaker002:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm, and you feel that youngsters nowadays have maybe less opportunity than you had yourself when you were leaving school? [speaker002:] Och, aye, I have, aye. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Girls, it's a shame really... I also find they didn't need to, they don't, didn't need to work as hard as the ones years ago. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They only will stand for the same, I don't think they're going to stand for the same conditions [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] that we used to have to make our own and I'm not kidding you, and [LAUGHTER] was ne was a [] you know? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] With things like that, I think the young ones that way [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] have kind of changed [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean I think we're all when theirs were running about but they're [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] kind of calmer I think the younger ones. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think they're a lot calmer. [speaker001:] Do you think the young the younger generation are too lazy? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No, I mean it, not lazy, I would say they're cleverer, put it that way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Aye, [speaker002:] Mhm, more common sense than we had. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [Ken:] So do you ever see the town picking back up again, and getting a few more factories in the? [speaker002:] Mm, I'd hope so but I don't think so. [Ken:] So [speaker002:] Look at at one time the and you had er well you've got Johnnie Walkers but there are not as many works in that either. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Cannot see it, no. This is what I mean. [speaker001:] Do you think there's there's a kind of widespread feeling that nearly everybody feels like that? [speaker002:] Aye, and they feel as though they've got to stick to the job they've got, especially at our age. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] Where could we get a job at our age? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So you've just got to [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it's that or nothing. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And unfortunately the bills comes in just the same as you've got to stick it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right thanks very much. [speaker002:] Alright.

[speaker001:] ... the apartments that going, we just supply one. Our work goes to the Axminster [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] department. [speaker002:] Mhm. Have you been in B M K like for a number of years, is this your first job or do you do jobs? [speaker001:] [cough] No I worked at er [cough] in an office, I worked in offices before I got married and eventually had my daughter. And then after I had my daughter I was going to go back in there but at the time it was just like a junior's position, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and now it's [cough] a wee bit further on than that and I thought it was demeaning. But in retrospect thinking back I should just have and waited for something else come along. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] So I had a job for about a year er in a fruit shop and then I didn't like the [LAUGHTER] Saturday work [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] so I decided I'd have a go in a factory, aha, and I come in it was over in the other place, the noise was unbelievable, really unbelievable. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I said, I'll never stick this, and all these women and they said, no it isn't very, so twenty one years later [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] here I am, I'm still here. [speaker002:] You're quite settled now, aye. [speaker001:] No I'm not settled and I'm not happy but [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] but the, the work market is not that good, I mean I don't [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] have a, a degree [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] in anything, all I [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] was doing was a shorthand typist. [speaker002:] Aha, aye. [speaker001:] So a a and there's nothing much in, I'm at the [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] stage that I want to put [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] my knapsack on my back [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and find out what's going on in the world. Before it's too late, I mean I don't want to reach [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] fifty or sixty and say is [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] this it? Because that's it. [speaker002:] Yeah, mhm. [speaker001:] But I would, I would like to just like pack it in and go. I'm trying to wait till my daughter's married. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aha. Mm. [speaker001:] Cos she's still erm... she finishes in December up in Glasgow, this her... it's like her fourth, fourth term at Glasgow [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] doing an honours degree in maths, so I'm waiting till she's finished and then [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] that'll be it. [speaker002:] Mhm. Mm. [speaker001:] I feel as if I'll have done my bit. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I find that actually speaking to people my dad, mum and dad, well my mum works in an office, my dad works in a factory, and they've always been very much sort of you know go out and get your education and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Do you find that people working in here are like that with their children, do you think they sort of push them so you don't, you know don't end up working in a factory like me? [speaker001:] No, I wouldn't say that at all, you, you can only guide your children or show, show them the road, you can't actually force them [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] unless they want to do it themselves. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Cos I often wonder, don't you get fed up all these exams and [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] my daughter travels up and down to Glasgow cos she didn't want to stay, she wanted to be at home, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] she must be fed up going up and down to Glasgow. And, and all these tests and they've a project here and this, that and the other [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] But no, she must do it while she's young [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] cos she found out, in her first year, she had a, a mature student and I wondered how old a mature student and he turned out to be thirty five, and he was married, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] his wife was supporting him and he was doing jobs on the side, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and he couldn't hack the first year, he failed the first year, and he failed the resits. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So she decided this is the time to do it, when you're young, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and you've no re no hang ups, no responsibilities, nothing in the sign. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] So er when she wants to do it I'm behind her, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] she's had her chance and I'm doing all I can to help her but at the end of the day it's on her shoulders. [speaker002:] Aha, aha. [speaker001:] If she, she fails at, at the last hurdle well she's gave it her best shot.

[speaker001:] ... feel about how the way the women are treated in B M K, do you think that, I mean is there enough provision for women,especial erm are you taking into consideration, do you feel on er is, do you feel that you're not, your needs aren't particularly catered for, I mean in the sense of, you might not have experienced this yourself but like er, maternity provisions, things like that, I mean you get maternity leave, do you feel that [speaker002:] Oh that's ok that's okay, aha. [speaker001:] that your job is safe, that you could come back or [speaker002:] It's as safe as any job is in today's industrial [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] climate I would imagine. But [cough] most of the women over there they, you could say they're, they're by the age of, of childbearing [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] except for the, the ones that they've just started recently. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Believe or not I could be one of the younger ones in my forties, they're all kind of past that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But they, they've got to start these younger people, although out there in there are a, a great number of ex-spoolers, but whether they would want to come back [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] And has the, it, technology changed a lot? [speaker002:] Yeah some things has, as I said we work off these er graph papers and they, they do them now by computer. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But the, the range of colour is sometimes so close and they can't give you a great diversity and the light's shining on it and sometimes the sun coming in [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] can give you a headache [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] whereas before they used to hand paint them all, well we know this is time consuming and expensive whereas you just program it in and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you've got your copies of it, if you, you happen to tear one they can give you another copy like that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Whereas if it got torn in the hand painted days then you're talking a long length of time. [speaker001:] Yeah, it was serious, yeah. [speaker002:] So that way the technology but the machines are basically what they had [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] from nineteen twenty three. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] With some exceptions. [speaker001:] Has that led to a reduction in the workforce do you think, do you now have machines that can do jobs that too much? [speaker002:] No not, not really.... Pre er you know how it went into the receivership [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and the old B M K s well there was about er two hundred people in the department that's when everything was boom boom. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Now the there's only twenty eight, thirty cos we we we've a much smaller market. So [cough] now have to go for the contracting, the overseas jobs. [speaker001:] Mhm, I see. [speaker002:] But the domestic market people just can't afford twenty five [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] thirty pound to do out their lounge or a bedroom or whatever a square [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] yard or square metre. [speaker001:] You not get any perks from working in here? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Unless you talk about cheap carpet get some cheap carpet. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] That's about it. [speaker001:] That's really it? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] No special offers? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well nothing much else you can [speaker001:] [cough] [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] get when you [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] work in a carpet place the only thing is [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] the end product. [speaker001:] So there's no [speaker002:] And it's it's not an item that, that you're er furnishing every two or three months, this is an expensive [speaker001:] That's true, yes, aha. [speaker002:] item. If you're doing out a lounge you're maybe talking about seven or eight hundred pounds if you want a top, top of the range carpet. [speaker001:] Aha, aha. [speaker002:] So you, you just do not do this. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] In a bedroom you're looking for something at one ninety nine or two [LAUGHTER] ninety nine []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You just couldn't possibly do it. [speaker001:] Aha, so er wondering, we know there's, there's no unions any more in the factory, that's right isn't it? [speaker002:] There are unions but [cough] the m the management don't really entertain them but people [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] still pay their money every week. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] I do not do this but some pe everyone's entitled to throw their money away if they like. And of course I think that maybe the electricians and the, the other tradesmen they might be in their equivalent union. [speaker001:] Yes aha. [speaker002:] But the, the Carpet Union, there is still a number of people that do believe in it. [speaker001:] Are you on any of these committees that, you know the, the organizing committees erm that are sort of built up to solve problems within the, you know, the various departments, or do you know anyone [speaker002:] They, they have a, a quality circle thing. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Yes, er no, [cough] I'm not in that. And they have another er works' committee for the management, and representatives from each department. It's just the works like a trade union thing, they sit down and the management'll tell them, or the workforce'll say what about this, that and the other [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and they come to some agreement and the, the management tell what's happening, how many orders they've got. Er if a department's busy or maybe need to shift personnel from here to there, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] if that department isn't really that busy. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] So they, they have that, they, they say they don't need unions because they've got a good working relationship. [speaker001:] Do you feel that works, or would you prefer a union set up? [speaker002:] It seems to work in here, because er the carpet industry, if you speak, speak to people in different... firms, say they all work the same way, [LAUGHTER] it seems to work on a [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] shoe string er from hand to mouth. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er nothing really that organized, but every carpet place seems to be the same. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It, it's, it's not... you, it's not until you've probably worked in another place and come here or go [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] from here, that you [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] would see a difference but people that have always worked in here don't notice any difference. [speaker001:] Aha, aha. [speaker002:] But is, it's a special kind of climate in here. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm., aha, just basically I mean how do you find working and, you know rearing children, bringing up a family, and doing your housework, do you, how do you organize it, do you find that you get up early and do work in the morning, will you do a bit of work when you go home or, does your partner help out with the work? [speaker002:] Oh just everybody has to pull together, mhm. [speaker001:] Everybody mucks in. Mhm, your family'll do various things? [speaker002:] Well I've only got one daughter, and she is er extremely good. She does all the washing and ironing and that kind of thing. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er, and the work just gets done, you don't need to do it every day. [speaker001:] Aha, aha. [speaker002:] I'm not a fanatic, I'm not [speaker001:] No, you can be when you're [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] working full time. [speaker002:] Oh I think there are other things to do. I find [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] housework depressing and boring, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] I, I mean I, I, I w I couldn't say that I would be happy being in the house all the time. I hate cooking, and I've never tried to bake in my life. I love eating by the way [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but I just er, I don't see any point in cooking three meals a day and washing dishes three or four time I don't find it satisfying, not that this is extremely fulfilling but [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you seem to get a bit of everything. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [cough] And I need the money to finance my, my climbing [LAUGHTER], and other kind of things that I do. [speaker001:] Mhm [speaker002:] But I don't see this as the be all and end all, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I couldn't possibly stay in the house, [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] impossible. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] I'm, I'm, I'm not er highly domesticated, and I don't er... feel the need to produce children. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'm not a wonderful mother. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Because erm my daughter's at the stage that she's probably [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] looking after me. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But I'm not the least bit maternal. [speaker001:] Right, so erm [speaker002:] I'm probably a bad example, [LAUGHTER] I'm what you're wanting to find out []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No, not at all, not at all.... So do you feel that erm... I mean I know that you've been here twenty one years, and do you think women are more important or less important in the factory than they were? I heard, when I started looking into the project at first that erm, the women used to do most of the weaving but you don't actually do the weaving now, and they used to basically you know make up the, the larger part of the work force, is that the case now? [speaker002:] Well that's in relation to the, the, the weaving that they do. Years ago they had all these narrow looms, about this size, and this is where women worked, they called it the narrow section, and maybe mostly for hotels or you know, in the olden days they had stair, your mother'll probably, stair runners or holes and the, the carpet just went like that and there'd be a piece of lino up the side, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] well there was a lot of call for that. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And women worked in that department, whereas the men worked at the huge broadloom [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] looms which are very heavy, very heavy, and through fashion, fashion changing and I mean people don't have these things any more. A lot of pubs and hotels will do the the their places out in these narrow sections so if one gets worn they can lift it up and [speaker001:] Mhm, yeah. [speaker002:] replace it. But houses, when you're doing a house you, you don't tend to do that now, you just have your broad loom [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and fit it in. So in that relationship the d the, the women are redundant as it were. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] There only is two, well there are two, one, they do shiftwork. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And the they'll turn a week about. But the the there's not the call in this er place for, for women in the weaving department. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But our department hasn't changed, the women are just doing the same job as they did sixty [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] years ago. And probably in the picking as well. In the winding it's just... their lot hasn't changed a great deal. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] Except I would say the winders are [LAUGHTER] worse off cos they're doing three shifts []. [speaker001:] Right, mhm. [speaker002:] And I just couldn't hack that I don't think. [speaker001:] Aha. Mm. So, erm have you got, do you have a lot of friends through work do you find, I mean do you sort of organize things after work, do you ever go for a drink? [speaker002:] Well a lot, a lot of people er er do er ju just about three weeks ago two women from our department retired so we had er we had a night out up in, that's where they live, so there is that kind of thing, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] or if on the few occasions that someone gets married, they hold a night. [speaker001:] , aha. [speaker002:] Er and some of the girls do like make-up parties and things like that. Some [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] of them go to the weight training at. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But as I say I don't do that kind of thing, I, I prefer to go away to the hills, [speaker001:] Aha, are you a keen climber? [speaker002:] and, and do my thing. Mhm. My daughter thinks I'm mad. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] When it came to my fortieth birthday she said, what would you like for your birthday? I said, I'd like a really good pair of trainers. And I'm no good at tying laces so she got me a pair of Adidas you know with the velcro, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] she said, why can't you be a normal mother and just want chocolates or perfume? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I said, well that's not much good when you're hanging from the end of a [LAUGHTER] rope []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And who do you go with? [speaker002:] I go with my husband. [speaker001:] Your husband? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And whereabouts do you go, just [speaker002:] Oh [cough] Glencoe, Skye, Aran, you know just [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] up there. [speaker001:] Do you, do you stay up there, do you have [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] a caravan. [speaker002:] No, a tent, or we've got an estate car if it's just a weekend jaunt, and it's maybe wet, we just sleep in the back of the car [speaker001:] aha. So complete change from this place anyway, [speaker002:] aha, and you meets up with so many wonderful people. [speaker001:] Aha, aha. [speaker002:] It gives you something else to talk about. [speaker001:] That's right, aha. [speaker002:] Instead of just, going to Tescos for some groceries or [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I mean I, I, I don't drink a lot, I mean maybe after I've been out in the hills you have got to drink something to replace the sweat, but I'm not a great drinker and I don't, I don't smoke and I, I don't like discos or anything like that [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] so you've got to find something else to do. [speaker001:] That's right, a healthy pursuit. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I used to play a lot of badminton and swimming but I've got bored out of my ears so it's something to keep fit. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So I bought myself a bike, and I've been popping backwards and forwards to my like [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] How about [speaker002:] Ah but as I say my daughter thinks I'm mad. [speaker001:] how about nicknames? You have a lot of nicknames in the factory? [speaker002:] Er... well er the just these two people that retired there, er they used to come this man in a car from, that was their lift to their work. And it was the days of the C B [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and he had this handle,a and er they were saying, we'll need to get ourself a handle, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] ah, I said, well what about the Dolly Sisters? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So that stuck and eventually when that place folded and we came over here, er we just called them the Dollies and that was, they were referred to, everybody knew who they were, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] the Dollies. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] So that, that's a bit of it in there. [speaker001:] Aha. So you just basically, you all [speaker002:] A and, and [speaker001:] know each other by your ordinary names? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] You don't shout nicknames [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] at each other, no? [speaker002:] Well not in our department anyway, I don't know, I can't speak for anybody else. [speaker001:] Aha, right. [speaker002:] Although I've worked in nearly all the departments you don't really get to know the people that well. [speaker001:] Mhm. have we missed out anything, is there anything [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker001:] you'd like to tell us? [LAUGHTER] Cos we're novices at this. [Ken:] Och aye. I mean er does it bother you at all that... well I mean are most of the men managers? Managers men? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Er the management [speaker001:] Where's the opportunities for like female apprentices and things like that? Nowadays I mean I know there never used to be apprenticeships for women but [speaker002:] Well I don't know if there are any women, I couldn't tell you whether any girls have applied to be like trainee tenters, that's people that sort [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the looms. Or, the trainees in our department would be female anyway. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And the way the management work in here, I can say is they,aim they're promoting anybody to a chargehand they usually promote somebody that's actually no threat to themselves. There's a kind of yes man, that, that's the way the carpet industry works in general. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They don't promote somebody that's gonna shimmy past them up the corporate ladder although [LAUGHTER] you couldn't [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] say this place [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] is a, a giant corporation []. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But sometimes I, I do feel that the girls, I, I know a couple of people in other departments that you could say would do the job equally well as the man they've put in, they probably [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] have bu be a better grounding. [Ken:] Aha. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] But I saw that in the glazier and when I worked in there, they would bring people in. [speaker001:] Mhm.... Oh [speaker002:] M [speaker001:] they wouldn't promote? [speaker002:] No, er, if you had a degree, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] and you absolutely no knew nothing about producing plain bearings you were sitting in the chair and probably a guy that worked his way through the factory floor who knew the job inside out, he was still a deputy. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] but because er you maybe had a degree well you get in there and you have to start [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] learning all this but you didn't know all the [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the ins and outs. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But that happens all over. [speaker001:] Mhm, what's the pay like compared to other factories in the area? [speaker002:] It's quite low. [speaker001:] Is it? [speaker002:] Mhm. Because er... how many years ago is it? Seven or eight years ago we, we, we're on piecework, we made our own wage. Er and most of us had in excess of a hundred pound, maybe a hundred and six, a hundred and ten pound, but when this guy bought place over, there was a kind of flat rate, and we'd to drop sixteen pounds to ninety [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] pounds. Well at the time you're thinking, God that's better than twenty or twenty five pound if you were unemployed, [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] on the brew, kind of thing. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So you jumped at the chance, but it is, I think th th poverty wage in Europe is it not, not about a hundred and forty, a hundred and forty five pounds? Well we're nowhere near that, nowhere near that. [speaker001:] Mm, that's right, mm. [speaker002:] That's why when I hear my daughter talking about getting fifteen or twenty K a year I'm going it would pay me two or three years for God's sake. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You can look after me then. [speaker002:] But saying that if you want a decent wage in here you have to work a lot of overtime. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] And most people do. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Because er i from the management point of view if you have got four hundred people and you work a lot of overtime that saves you having six or seven hundred people. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And if you want to cut back you can either cut down on your workforce or you can cut down in the [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] overtime. In my department just now they're working seven days a week, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and four, four nights overtime. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I couldn't do that, not that I want to. [speaker001:] Do you think the conditions make people kind of like-minded in like the respective politics and things like that? Do you think it's sort of, you know, do you hold a lot of views in common with people you work beside or? [speaker002:] Not, no, not really. [speaker001:] Not really. [door knock] [speaker002:] We've got quite a mixture.

[speaker001:] ... do you find the, I mean do you find the management alright, do you get on okay with them and everything? [speaker002:] Mm, aye. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Nobody really crabby? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No, there isn't really. Cos in my office there's quite a lot of bosses in my office, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] cos it's the production control so [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] just talk to them like anybody else does. [speaker001:] What do, what do you actually do in your office, is it like telephone duties or typing or what? [speaker002:] A bit of everything. Just do everything really. [speaker001:] Mhm. Do you get to know all the different people that ph ring up, all the different clients and that? [speaker002:] Well we don't speak to clients, it's just salesmen and [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] people I speak to. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Talking to quite a lot of different people. [speaker001:] Mhm... do you get to know basically everything work. So how did you get erm the job in the office? Was it just a, within the factory, out about it? [speaker002:] No it was been here for six weeks and I was just expecting to leave [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I was gonna go and apply for but then Neil he sent for me and just asked me, just told me there was a job come up in the office and if I wanted it [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I was to go. [speaker001:] So it was just luck really? Were you relieved? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I don't know, I didn't really want to work in an office. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] I'd prefer to work in a factory. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's right, if I didn't work in the office I didn't work in the factory. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh I see, aha. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So you didn't have a great deal of choice? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh well... Anything else? [LAUGHTER]... I don't think most of these questions apply to you actually because they're mostly like for the kind of older women, I was gonna ask them about how they er coped with the, you know, running a house and [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'm not gonna insult you by asking are you really that old. [LAUGHTER] You're not planning to get married in the future then? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Would you recommend this job to er other folk your age or [speaker002:] I didn't have very good qualifications [Ken:] Aha. [speaker002:] here, good qualifications [speaker001:] [cough] Excuse me. Aha. Have you ever thought about like maybe going to college or? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No? [speaker002:] I'm just not, I'm not interested in it, no. [speaker001:] You're not academic, you don't like it? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] So what kind of hobbies have you got? Do you do anything like, do you have any friends from work that you see outside of work? [speaker002:] 's boyfriend, he works here. [speaker001:] Oh well, you met him, did you meet him here, aha?... Well it hasn't been a complete loss. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well I don't know. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you do anything, I mean do they do, do any trips, like to the lights of Blackpool or anything now? [speaker002:] Well occasionally somebody runs something but not very often. [speaker001:] Aha. Do they have a football team now? [speaker002:] They used to, but don't think, they haven't got one now. [speaker001:] No, cos [speaker002:] They've just got a snooker team and a golf club and [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] things like that. [speaker001:] Aye, and are a lot of people involved in that that work in the factory? [speaker002:] Just the men. [speaker001:] Mhm, the women don't have any clubs then? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Och no, we can't have that, you'll [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] have to start some. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No just the men. [speaker001:] Just the men, what's the kind of proportion of women to men in the factory? [speaker002:] I'd say it was about half and half in the factory but higher up it's all men. [speaker001:] All men aha. [Ken:] Does that bug you? [speaker002:] Not really, it doesn't annoy me but I know there are some... like women older than me in... in my office that know they're not gonna get anywhere because it's all men. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. a wee bit of resentment? [speaker002:] Aye, cos about six month ago there was a job come up in our office for like a trainee assistant manager type, well an assistant to an assistant manager [LAUGHTER] kind of thing [] so I applied for it and another woman in the office applied for it cos she's been here for like sixteen years or whatever. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So, and she knew about the office, and I knew about the office and knew everything they were wanting me to know but a man got it from outside so [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] It was a bit [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] Do you ever feel like changing at all? [speaker002:] No, not really, [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No it's all men. Do they ever send you on training courses or anything like that? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Do you feel your job's secure? [speaker002:] As long as the factory's here I'll be here I would. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's a job that they need somebody to do, they couldn't just [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] pay you off and things [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] would just pile up and, you'd always need somebody. [speaker001:] Aha, so [speaker002:] somebody. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay? [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Smashing.

[speaker001:] So what job is it you do in the factory? [speaker002:] Oh I get the samples, now. I used to be a spooler, worked a machine, but I got moved to the samples about six years ago. [speaker001:] Aha. Have you worked in B M K in a long while? [speaker002:] Er forty years. [speaker001:] Forty years? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Is this, was this your first job? Or did you [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] ? [speaker002:] No, I came straight here from school. [speaker001:] Mhm, you have a wealth of experience then. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So have you enjoyed working here? Do you like it? [speaker002:] Yes, I liked the spooling. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I like the job I've got now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er [speaker001:] So what d what is your job now involve, what do you do? [speaker002:] We cut up small pieces of carpet into different sizes and we've got about fifteen different folders [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] for each range of carpet. We stick it on with a hot glue gun. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and it gets sent out to all the representatives and all the shops. [speaker001:] Mhm and is it basically kind of regular hours you do? You don't do shift work? [speaker002:] No, we do overtime but no shift work. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. And what first attracted you to the job? Did you have er relatives that worked here or was it the pay or? [speaker002:] When I left school I had an aunt [speaker001:] Aha, [speaker002:] in the factory. [speaker001:] And that was basically how you got? [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] Do you have a lot of friends? [speaker002:] It used to be quite a custom that, you know that [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] the families just followed [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] one another in [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] into the, the works and that, and that was how I started. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] It's not so much like that now? [speaker002:] No it's not. No it's not. [speaker001:] So do you have a lot of friends in B M K, you know over the years have you made any firm pals? [speaker002:] Oh aye, aye, you do. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You get attached especially at the spooling because you're working in twos. [speaker001:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] And over the years if you've been working with the same partner [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] but my friend Jet is still a spooler and we still work together too. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mm. [speaker002:] Oh aye you get to know people that you've for years and years. [speaker001:] Have you any nicknames for each other? [speaker002:] Er... no I don't think so. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Really? [speaker002:] I know some of them do but [speaker001:] Not ones that you talk about anyway. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Does, do, has technology affected your job? Have they brought any, in any machines that change things? [speaker002:] Er... not in my job, no. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] In other parts of the factory maybe? [speaker002:] Aye, but not where I work. [speaker001:] Not where you work. [speaker002:] Everything's, you, just done with your hand. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Aye. Cheaper. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Are there no union any more? [speaker002:] We're in a union, oh I'm in a union. I pay union every week but er [speaker001:] Which union is it that you're in? [speaker002:] It'll be the... like the carpet general workers in carpet industry. [speaker001:] Yes, aha. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But er, never have I seen [LAUGHTER] anybody for it [], [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] I just joined it after we came over but [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I know a lot have pulled out of it [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mm, why is that? Do they think it's useless? [speaker002:] A lot do think it's useless. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] But there again if there ever was a strike or that you've a wee bit protection. [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker002:] So you have [speaker001:] What do feel about the changeover to non union and these new committees that they've now set up? Is it a big difference or? [speaker002:] Oh it's... just a fact now you've just have to go and do as you're told. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean you, if you're sent to do a certain job now you've just got to go and do it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Years ago that just wouldn't have been. The idea of changing a light bulb, years ago, [speaker001:] Really? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I mean if it had been an electrician's job and [speaker001:] They had quite strong union years ago? [speaker002:] Oh aye, oh aye, just wouldn't have got given these jobs years ago. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] But now everybody just kind of mucks in and gets on with it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So they do. [speaker001:] So how do you find er arrangements things do, do you think the women... are satisfied with the kind of provisions that there are made for them, the like of maternity leave and pay and things like that, health and safety? [speaker002:] Och I think so, aye I think they are. [speaker001:] It's [speaker002:] Because er I mean you, they still get their maternity leave [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and they've got to have their job kept open for them. [speaker001:] Is that right? Oh that's good, quite [speaker002:] Aha, mhm, the job's got to be there for them up till twenty six weeks I think. [speaker001:] So you feel quite secure? [speaker002:] Oh I think so. [speaker001:] And er are there any opportunities like to come back and work part time if you've got children? [speaker002:] No, we don't have a lot of part-timers. They have recently started [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] in this factory here, they do a twilight shift. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think it's at the picking. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er not that factory over there, they don't. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm.... Erm... so do you have a family? [speaker002:] Yes I've got two daughters. [speaker001:] And do you, how do you organize things like looking after your family will everybody muck in or [speaker002:] Well they're all married, aye, they've all grown up you see. [speaker001:] Grown up now? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] When you were working here did you always kind of? [speaker002:] When I started at first erm I just de depended on my mother. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because I had some personal problems at the start and the two girls were small when I come working [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but my mother was there. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And then they've grew up now. [speaker001:] Oh that's good. [speaker002:] Cos one got married in December, oh the oldest one's still in the in the house [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] just having me that we manage fine. [speaker001:] And what do your daughters do, do they work? [speaker002:] Er Larine but she's not working just now, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and Leigh works at the airport [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] at Prestwick. [speaker001:] So you wouldn't encourage them to work in, work in here? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Och it's been a good job to me. [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean... and when I was a spooler I, I really enjoyed it because I had job satisfaction at the spooling, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] with nice carpets and [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] it's good to know they're maybe still lying on somebody's floor. [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Do you think there is a lot of that, people are quite proud of the work they're putting in? [speaker002:] Not so much now. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] In the past? [speaker002:] Mhm [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm, don't have the same pride now. [Ken:] Why do you think that is? [speaker002:] I don't know it's... I think it's now jus just a job now, you know it's [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] just [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] specially after it was taken over I think it was [speaker001:] The, the kind of spirit of things is [speaker002:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker001:] Mm, so it's a big change from [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] the way it used to be? [speaker002:] It is, oh aye. [speaker001:] Do you feel it's kind of downhill? [speaker002:] It's er... it's still running but that's it. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] It's still a job to come to but [speaker001:] So do you feel that, I mean in the, in the years you've worked here is the women as important as they always were in the factory? You know how they used to do a lot of weaving, they don't do so much now. [speaker002:] No there are only two women at the weaving now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] There used to be about, a lot of them, there used to be a whole floor, er [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] when it was in Street. They were all women [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but we've only got two now. [speaker001:] Mhm. The majority [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] now working in different departments then? [speaker002:] the spoolers are all women. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And the winding is all women, they do shift work. [speaker001:] Mhm, do you think that women are just better suited to these jobs, is that right? women. [speaker002:] Well I don't know because years ago they trained er chaps to do the spooling and they were goo they were managing fine [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] they were on a night shift too then. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] When they had the boys in. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And you could do it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] But er they just don't seem to employ the boys [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] to do it now. [speaker001:] And how about apprenticeships and things, are there any apprenticeships for women? [speaker002:] They've started recently, they d they didn't do it for years, we hadn't been training anybody and that was unusual because when it was the big factory you were always bringing in the school leavers [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] but we've got apprentice tenters, I mean er now being trained and there's er four new spoolers [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] young girls being trained for the spool. [speaker001:] Mhm do you [speaker002:] So that's [speaker001:] feel that's, that's maybe a good thing? [speaker002:] Oh aye, had to be because I mean you don't stay young forever, [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you've got have somebody [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] coming behind you that's able to do it. [speaker001:] That's right, aha. [speaker002:] It's bound to be a good thing. [speaker001:] And is it, I mean it used to just be men who would do these things and [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] women maybe worked in the jobs and yet didn't have a, a piece of paper to prove [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] they were only going on their reputation [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] factory. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. So what do you, I mean do you get on alright with the management or do you feel that it's mostly, is the management mostly male and do you feel that er there should maybe be a wee bit more representation for the women workers in management? [speaker002:] Oh I suppose there could be better representation for the women because the management is all male. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] So it is, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but er [speaker001:] Have they not had pressure from people that would [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] prefer bit more er maybe more opportunities for women to go into management? [speaker002:] To go up into management, aha, there's nothing like that in here. [speaker001:] Mhm, rather than bringing people in [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] from outside. [speaker002:] I mean the management we've still got is the same as what we had [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] seven year ago when it was changed over, nothing's changed there so [Ken:] Mhm [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it's just the same. [speaker001:] And what happened at the changeover, did they just fire you all and then reinstate you? [speaker002:] They, they worked it down, and down and down, for two or three months, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] there were always people getting paid off, and eventually out of about two hundred spooler there were only eight left [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and that's, we, we come over here then, and that [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] was all we had. Two or three weavers, eight spoolers, I think it was four winders [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er but gradually they've been building the workforce back up again, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it's quite healthy just now. [speaker001:] So where were you based before this? [speaker002:] Just on the other side of the river, it's been knocked [speaker001:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] down now. office block is, have [speaker001:] aha. [speaker002:] you seen the big glass offi [Ken:] Aha. [speaker002:] that's all that's left standing, that [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] was all B M K, right round about it. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] They had the... the winding place [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and the, the dye work and the spinning mill, they did their own spinning and everything. [speaker001:] Mhm. They don't do that now? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] They still do their own winding but they d they don't do their own dyeing [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] or spinning, that's bought in now. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. We get told that erm in the early times there was quite a bit of social activities going on, lots of clubs and things [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] and er [speaker001:] film shows and things like that. [speaker002:] Oh years ago? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They used to have a photographic club, and all the sports, they had the golf and er billiards and pool and swimming [Ken:] like that? [speaker002:] Swimming club, I used to go to the swimming club. [speaker001:] Mhm. Did you ever win anything? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Er no []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Just for the fun. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No, just for fun. [speaker001:] How about the works dances? What were they like? Were they good? [speaker002:] Oh aye, yes, oh aye they were good. Yes they were. [speaker001:] Big occasions? [speaker002:] We used to have er what they called the Dance in summertime, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] when the boys were out with their flannels and [LAUGHTER] sports jackets and [] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and girls all in their big sticky out underskirts. [speaker001:] Whereabouts would that be held? [speaker002:] They were all held in the grand hall. [speaker001:] Oh aha. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Er did everybody go? [speaker002:] Oh aye, five hundred people at a time went to them, and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] then we had works big ball in the wintertime, when you went with your long dress on, and your gloves, you know your. Used to be great. [speaker001:] did you do, was it spot waltzes and raffles and things? [speaker002:] Oh aye. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] All that kind of thing? [speaker002:] Aye, that's [speaker001:] Did you have like a buffet? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm, good. [Ken:] I mean went to this kind of thing, it was [speaker002:] Oh aye it was [Ken:] awfully popular. [speaker002:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker001:] Talked about for a week afterwards? [speaker002:] Aye [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh it was a highlight, the works dance. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You don't have anything like that now? [speaker002:] No, no nothing, I think it's discos now. [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] Er [speaker002:] They still have a, they hold a Christmas disco. [speaker001:] Do they? [speaker002:] Aye, but it's [speaker001:] Is it mostly younger ones that go to that, [speaker002:] No I find that usually quite a mixed crowd goes to it. [speaker001:] Oh that's good. [speaker002:] Aye they do. [speaker001:] So how about trips, did you go on any works trips? [speaker002:] Oh we used to go on the works trips, aha, we used to go to Rothesay [speaker001:] Rothesay? [speaker002:] Aye, we went on the train to Dunfermline and we used to have a lot of trips. [speaker001:] Was that quite a kind of regular thing? [speaker002:] Mhm, that was your that was your summer outing. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Aye, we used to have a works magazine. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] In fact if I'd known I was coming here I could have brought you some in, let you seen what we used to do. [speaker001:] smashing, aha. [speaker002:] Er... we used to have the... the works magazine that was come out every month. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] Cos we used to have a lot of factories you see [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] there was, and in Ireland, [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah that's right. Mhm. [speaker002:] and the one that, that in Canada, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] well we used to get the news for the and that was put in the magazine too. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] Who got married, who'd babies, who died. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I just let everybody big family Ken, you know everything about everybody, [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's good aha. [speaker002:] But er [speaker001:] I heard they was maybe gonna start up another magazine. [speaker002:] We've had a magazine since we came over but I don't think they just had enough to put in it and [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] there [Ken:] Right. [speaker002:] hasn't been one published for a long while. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er the News Shuttle they called it. [speaker001:] Yes, [speaker002:] Mhm, it was just a wee bit quite a big one we used to call it [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. Quite a good thing. [speaker002:] Aye it was good. [speaker001:] Full of gossip? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Did you have any children's parties or things like that? [speaker002:] They used to have that too but they don't have that [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker002:] now because they [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] used to have a welfare committee [speaker001:] Aha. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] and they had and the older children were, were taken to the pantomime [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and the young ones go to the Christmas party. They were held in the canteen. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er oh it used to be great fun [speaker001:] And how did you raise funds for that? [speaker002:] It was just taken out of the welfare every week. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] We used to pay for [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but they don't have a committee or anything [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] like that [Ken:] No. [speaker002:] now. [speaker001:] Mhm, and do you do things like maybe send people out to visit the sick people that were off? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Off their work? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Mhm, with a basket of fruit or something? [speaker002:] Oh and send flowers. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh we still do that if we know anybody's off [speaker001:] Do you, aha. [speaker002:] and from our own departments, in each [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] department does it if there's anybody off ill. Send flowers and that. [speaker001:] And how about pay offs, do you go through the whole with the chanting and that? [speaker002:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's still going on. [speaker001:] And take them round the factory? [speaker002:] Yes, take them round the factory. [speaker001:] Does that happen so much now? [speaker002:] Aye still do it. [speaker001:] Quite a lot? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Ken:] Aha. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] That's good. [speaker002:] We had one just the other about a fortnight ago [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] so we did. Oh aye, still have the pay off. [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] You're wild. [speaker002:] And wild's the word. [LAUGHTER] big woman out there at the wi the weaving, one of the weavers, and if there's one of the chaps who there getting married oh she straps them down to the weaving. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So she does, she ties them, see you come in in the morning to clock in and... and it's oh my God, it's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] it's, I mean she covers them with waste and oil But she'll not let anybody by without putting something in his box. [speaker001:] Do they still do that now with people that are maybe er completed their apprenticeships, do they anything to them? [speaker002:] No, no they don't much, they used to do that, mhm, mhm [speaker001:] I know they used to do that, aha. [speaker002:] Mm, no, Madeleine's great fun. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Tie them up. [speaker001:] Did I ask you about nicknames? [speaker002:] Aye, you did. [speaker001:] You're not letting us know anyway. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh you must have some nicknames for the bosses. [speaker002:] There must have been nicknames but er can't really, don't really remember. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Do you find that erm the likes of yourself and your workmates do you have a lot of kind of views in common and things, do you think that you're maybe kind of the same political persuasions or whatever? [speaker002:] Oh aye, oh aye, I think it's, mhm [speaker001:] That comes through the job [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] maybe. [speaker002:] Aye, you usually find that. [speaker001:] The same kind of outlook on life. [speaker002:] Mhm, mhm. [Ken:] So I mean your yourself how do you feel the town's been changed over these few years? [speaker002:] ? [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] Oh there's nothing left in it.... You know you used to have a choice of jobs but you don't now. [speaker001:] declined very much it? [speaker002:] Mhm. The industry in this town used to be great but everything's shutting.... Just not there any more, you've got to go to the town now to work. [speaker001:] Do you think the younger generation are in a worse position than what you were in when you started work? [speaker002:] Aye, aye, mhm. Oh aye, aha. Definitely. [Ken:] Do you see improvement on [speaker002:] I don't think so. Maybe in the, in the, outlying districts maybe, but I think they'll have to travel to go to work. [Ken:] Aye. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I can't see much more coming back to the town now. [speaker001:] Mhm, that's right. [speaker002:] They've just made it into a town where people are travelling out to go to work [Ken:] Aye. [speaker002:] cos they've developed urban job.... I can't ever see the factories coming back that used to be with, you know they're all be smaller work loads now [Ken:] Aye. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] where they're at one and two thousand people working for them, I can't see that ever coming back, you know like the? [Ken:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Ken:] How many folk used to work here when it was kind of at it's? [speaker002:] I think there was eleven hundred before they started [Ken:] Chopping. [speaker002:] Aha. [Ken:] Mm. [speaker002:] I think it was about eleven hundred. [speaker001:] So what would you say now, maybe about four to five hundred? [speaker002:] Aye, we're back up to about five hundred I think. [speaker001:] Mhm, right. [speaker002:] So [speaker001:] Do you feel quite erm your jobs are quite safe, you don't feel under [speaker002:] Not really, not really, you just, we've been there seven years now [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and it's just been another seven years you've been able to work [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but you don't know just how long it's going to be going on. Mhm. Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Cos if it ever gets where it's not making money I suppose it'll just shut. [speaker001:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker002:] So it will but however it's been quite... fortunate just now, quite busy. [Ken:] Thanks a lot. [speaker001:] Thanks very much. [speaker002:] You're welcome.

[Dennis:] what she's going to do. [Clare:] Right. Erm I'm here as a representative of a small company from York, called and what we're doing is we're working on behalf of the Group, who compile and publish the English Dictionary. And what I'm doing here today is, I'm recording this seminar as an instance of spoken English in the nineteen nineties. Which will go towards making a corpus of information from which will draw the meaning and usage of words as it was in the nineteen nineties. And this information will be linguistically analyzed, and then used to help compile the new dictionary which will be coming out in a few years. So I thank you all very much for taking part in this, and I hope you have a happy seminar. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] The people at the back may not be picked up on this so erm [speaker003:] He should be here any minute. [Trevor:] Right. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. [speaker003:] Morning. [Trevor:] [cough] Sorry for coming in under the wire at er nine fourteen according to this clock. Erm Hugh's asked me to open this morning's erm quality seminar. Erm a a you're in for quite a good day. I know that er the seminar which I attended sparked off quite a lot of lively er debate. And er at the end of it I think we all felt we knew where we were going, and, and what the work that we'd put in over the last three years on the management procedures, which form the foundations of our quality system. Er I think we came to realize what that work was all in aid of.... The management team had, I'll sit down if you don't mind, the management team has decided that we were going to go for quality because it was a matter of survival. The industry which we are part of is in [cough] excuse me, is in er... sorry about this I've dashed across here [whispering] []... I I'll read from Hugh's notes if you don't mind. Erm I would like to remind you of my objectives quoted at the time in th in the quality manual. Er to adopt best practices, er from the various offices, to help produce a better end product. To delegate decision making down as far as possible. And as far as our group's vision statement is concerned, to be acknowledged as the leading consultant in the rail er in the field of railway engineering. To provide a professional service satisfact I'm sorry Dennis, would you just excuse me? Can I hand over to you? I I I do apologize. Right. Sorry about that.... [Dennis:] Sorry I'm totally unprepared for this. Erm [cough]... To start at the top and unfortunately I'll reread Hughie's notes. Perhaps wavering slightly. Erm It's now thr nearly three years since management procedures were introduced as the first stage of our aspirations to become quality assured.... And I would like to you, remind you of my objectives quoted at that time and as are stated in the er manual. That is firstly to adopt best practice from various offices, which hopefully would help us to provide a better end product. And to delegate decision making er to as low a level as possible within the organization, compatible with safeguarding er the quality of the product that we provide to our clients. The group as you are aware do have a vision statement, erm which has been published er and it was er developed a couple of years ago er great effort by the er management team. And that vision statement is, to be acknowledged as the leading consultant in the railway i in the fields of railway engineering. To provide a professional service satisfying our clients' needs and exceeding their expectations. To be a well trained, dedicated and highly motivated team and to be committed totally to safety. Now that vision has not changed. That is still the group's er vision and stated objectives. Erm as far as certification of er th the of a system is concerned er we are still comm committed to getting office certificated and as many of you may be aware the Swindon office has actually overtaken us on the B E S side erm and they are er, but hopefully we will achieve certification for the whole of our group erm prior to Swindon achieving certification for their whole group. The subtle difference is tha that Swindon are going function by function and getting er five certificates. Er ours is a slightly more difficult task, I would suggest a much more difficult task, in that we're trying to go for one certificate for the whole of the group. Erm... we believe, er if we are to demonstrate to our clients that we are as good or better than our competitives competitors, then we need certification. And this is seen as a matter of survival. Er fairly recently we were asked to tender for erm a new station at Rickmansworth for Crossrail and one of the prerequisites of that job, er which was a ten million pound project, er one of the prerequisites of that job, was that we should either be certificated or at least have a quality assurance erm system in place. And because er we do have a quality assurance system in place although not certificated, er we were able to tender for that work. Otherwise we would have not been able to tender. Erm... I think I'll leave this up till.... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [Dennis:] The basic message of quality, which Mike will er explain later on is, if you improve quality your costs decrease. Because you are continually reducing the number of mistakes that you make and continually improv improving. Erm and therefore you produce less wasted time, less remedial work er and a cheaper product. Erm... quality could be regarded as an empty word. We need to bring it about, and it can only be done through teamwork. That's the point that Hughie has set as one of his objectives for the next twelve months, is to get the group acting as one team, and not five or six separate teams. Erm this is going to be extremely difficult because the British culture is one of every man for himself. People tend not to work particularly well in teams in this country. Erm but it's something that we need to work at. And th the Japs actually score in this because they actually believe totally in teamwork. Erm we need to change our culture.... Erm I think really I'll just leave it there cos I'm a bit struggling, struggling a little bit to remember quite what Hughie was saying. If you appreciate I was actually thrown into the very deep end. I think perhaps what's going to be said to you to the rest of the day erm will actually bring out the key points tha that Hughie was trying, trying to make. One was that quality is here. Quality is here to stay. Quality is improvement. And the other aspect is one of working as a team. I think those were the two main messages that Hughie wished to get across today, and that we will concentrate on er during the rest of this seminar. Erm th that the seminar is going to be lead by Mike. Er Mike is from Associates and Mike has been helping the, the Q A team on a part time basis, and putting some sensible thought into how the group should go forward. Erm but before Mike comes on I would just like er Norman to make a few comments er on his commitment to the group's er quality system.... [speaker003:] [whispering] [] [Norman:] Morning. Er quality. Definition of quality, right product at the right time, at the right price. Now in P Way Design we have no problems with that, do we? Or do we? Erm we are the most profitable part of the S A U. No problems about that. Er we've no great problems with our technical results, and where they are we sort them out quite amicably with the area people. We meet our main deadlines, which are normally the key deadline normally the S and C. We meet it don't we? So there's no problem. Or is there? Just looking at it in a bit more detail. We're profitable but we normally don't compete with anyone else for getting the work. So effectively we put in what is a fair price, and we get the job, and we do it normally within the price or within a slight overspend. But where we have competed, accidentally in one case, deliberately in another, we've been undercut by our rivals and we haven't got the job. Also a good pointer where we've been able to compare ourselves with civil engineering scaled fees, which was on the Overtown Bank Slip which was a job which went completely right, perfect no problems. If we'd have put in a price based on A C scaled fees, we would have overspent by a hundred and fifty five percent. So we thought. So perhaps there's a, a little bit of work we can do in er [cough] in that sphere. The right time. How many times have I had someone come and say, can you sign this drawing please it has to go, go to John tonight. He's taking it for the meeting tomorrow. Er how many times have we said, yeah, we can do this job but we'll, it needs the route improvement that we're doing for Arthur. Or er, Arthur's in no hurry. Well Arthur is a very reasonable and good friends with us. But he notices, it builds up, he starts thinking to himself, they're always late. It's no great problem but I'm not getting it on time. Yet he begins to notice if we do it. Think about our finished product. I said you know the minor er faults and discrepancies, we er tidy up quite amicably with the area people normally. But what we've got to bear in mind is that minor faults in our design can be very serious when translated to a job on the ground which. Also the person who has helped us sort out maybe come to sensible engineering conclusion on the minor problem, but be saying to his chief, there was a problem with the York though I just managed to sort it out. And that builds up. Also what you've got to bear in mind is that inherent in any permanent way job is the capacity for something to go wrong. And when something goes wrong there's recriminations and when there's recriminations, people will crawl for ways out. That is the time for there to be nothing wrong with our drawings. Drawings can be blamed when er there is actually nothing wrong and people are looking for an excuse blame from themselves. So again for reasons like that, we have to maintain the confidence of the client. And that today is what it's all about. If the client is confident that he's getting the best deal from us, he will say, alright Birmingham ar are cheaper than York on a route improvement say, but I've had one of their cheap jobs before. I'll, I'll stick with York and get value for money. Erm drawing the client, is he has confidence in us say, well York have got their act together. If the S if the S and if the S and T give them a, a fair crack of the whip. There's no problems with York, they always given me a good service in the past. And the er technical quality of our drawings... the client if he has confidence will say, who are you trying to kid? York drawings are good. just just yarning You're trying to d divert attention erm erm disturb discrepancies. So it's a question of us retaining, because to a certain extent we already have it, due to our customer past. Retaining and renewing customer confidence. And this is where B S five seven fiv five O certification or I S O Nine Thousand and one certification is important to us. As Dennis has said from er Hughie's erm erm er statement, it is a requirement nowadays. And it's valuable to us in, in three aspects. First of all, certification is a bedrock of achievement, like having a degree, and you need a degree or an H N C or an O N C. It's a statement in itself. More importantly, it's er conveys to the client that we care about quality, that we've gone to the trouble to set up procedures which make our product as good as it possibly can be.... And thirdly, it has a very real er value in that, in going for er certification, we are actually putting checks and procedures in place which will help to ensure that what we do is the right price, is to the right time and is the right product. So that's basically all [speaker003:] [cough] [Norman:] er just one after thought, Dennis mentioned teamwork, now we we've been together for a few years basically, but you might say, we work as a team, everyone gets on, everyone helps each other out. We do within P Way Design, which is probably the best office I've ever worked in for that. But what we've got to bear in mind is that we are a multi-functional group. There's PICAS involved, works office involved, to a lesser extent B E S. So that is really where a weakness is, it's in perceiving the needs of other parts, parts of the group. That's something that we do have to work on and I can't emphasize it too strongly. Okay. Er I've said a lot so I'll er leave you to Mike to take things further. [Mike:] Thank you very very much Norman that's great. Have you all got a programme in the folder? So that you've got a vague idea of er what's going to befall you for the rest of today?... Okay? We'd very much like you to feel free to ask any questions or comment er er on, on the er presentations during the course of the morning. Er and this afternoon. So don't hesitate to ask questions or, or discuss points which you feel erm have not be made very clearly or perhaps with which you don't even agree. And let's try and resolve any issues which, which come up like that. What we want to do [cough] this morning is erm tt talk a little bit to you about er the quality system and the I S O Nine Thousand procedures and er documented er systems, which have been developed so far within the whole group. Er and we want to try and explain a little bit about... tt how far we got in terms of achieving certification to I S O Nine Thousand. [cough] But we then want to er explain w what this business of quality planning is all about. Because we believe very very strongly wi that with an organization like yours, where each piece of work that you do is slightly different from other pieces of work, to have er a single m way, an approach to following the work er is, is really not, not the right er thing to do at all. What we're looking for is... a quality system and a set of procedures which are flexible enough to enable you to handle the slick jobs, which you haven't got a lot of fee income for. And we want you to able to handle the, the complex jobs which require an awful lot of checking and a a a lot of er a lot er detail because the fee for the job is i is, is higher, and the job complexity is high. Er and we [cough] we want to be able to have a mechanism within our I S O Nine Thousand system, which enables us to tackle different jobs of different, different complexity. So that's er essentially this, this morning's er er programme, and the objectives which we want to try and er look at and achieve. First and foremost though, we want to go back to basics and erm get our ideas absolutely straight as regards what quality is and what we're trying to achieve with I S O Nine Thousand. There's a lot of misunderstanding about I S O Nine Thousand [cough] and I think that Norman's er analogy a few seconds ago is really, really rather good. If you're asking a civil engineer to do some work for you... i if that civil engineer has a degree does it automatically mean that the work's going to be perfect and wonderful?... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] No. [cough] It doesn't does it? Erm but there are certain civil engineering activities which e I'm thinking perhaps more about the bridge design side of things really, but there are certain activities which actually demand a certain level of qualification before you, you can actually sign, sign off drawings or a or agree to calculations or whatever. Yes? So the fact that you've got a degree or an H N C, or whatever, is actually a starting point. It it's, it's er a, a level from which you y you er you progress and it's the same with I S O Nine Thousand or five seven five O. It's really no guarantee of perfection, but it's, it's a sort of measure. It is a level, a starting point and perhaps er we'll, we'll pursue this concept during the next er hour or so. Let's, let's look at what quality is in basic terms.... We've got somebody from the Oxford English er dictionary compilation er arena, with us today and I, I, I'm almost tempted to ask Clare [LAUGHTER] what wh what, what the definition of the word quality is actually []. But do you know what the, what a typical dictionary would give as the definition of quality? We s it's a word we use quite a lot. Wh wh what's, what's the definition of the word?... [speaker003:] [cough]... [Mike:] I told you they'd be quiet to start with. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [cough]... [Mike:] Any ideas? What do we mean when we use the word quality in normal day to day language?... We use the word often enough don't we?... Any ideas?... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] We've got all day, yes. We started early.... Come on. [speaker003:] Perfect. Excellent. Above average. [Mike:] Excellent. Perfect. Above average. This is great, yes. Any more ideas?... The Oxford Dictionary tempers the word excellence, or perfection, with erm a piece of phraseology, degree of. Erm... now what's the problem with this definition? If you ask two people to go away and do the same job with a degree of excellence, are you to get the same result at the end of the day? From the two different people? It's not really a very clear definition is it? From a work point of view, degree of excellence, it's, it's too vague. So unfortunately, we're not able to manage quality if we use the dictionary definition of degree of excellence. We need to have something better, or something different. So this is the first problem where w we, we talk about the management of quality. We have to change the definition of the word that we've grown up with over the years, otherwise we really can't manage the concept. And this is where all our problems start. It would have been nice actually if somebody had said, we're not going to have quality management, we're going to have uck management. Or something like that, then we could have of, we could have redefined this, this new word and we wouldn't have had these awful confusions that we get. But what we have to do is completely junk the definition of the word quality that we've grown up with over the years. But we still use the wretched word. So where do we go? Well I think that a number of you might have seen that definition of quality. Have you come across fitness for purpose?... One o one or two nods. Thirteen blank looks. Four co one or two people completely disinterested. That's not, that's fair average [LAUGHTER] really isn't it I think []. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Now this definition, fitness for purpose, erm fits in very nicely with I S O Nine Thousand and the requirements in, in the quality systems standard. Er it's a little bit vague, is fitness for purpose, but it fits in with I S O Nine Thousand quite well because of the con of another little concept. We're talking about concepts rather a lot this morning. How do we find out what the purpose is?... If we're going to do er a job?... Right. Where do get the specification from? [speaker003:] The client. [Mike:] Yeah. The hint behind this phrase is that it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to the customer, talk to the client. Erm I know this is a bit of shock horror to some of you. I mean the client what do they know about anything? Might as well go and talk to the doorpost as some of your clients, mightn't you? But the theory is that if we, if we get to know what the, the purpose er o o of the job or, or the assignment is, er then we, we stand a slightly better chance of er getting a satisfied client at the end of the day. However, it's still a vague definition and we often find it more useful to er... tidy that definition up by introducing, conformance with requirements. So having, having found what the er the purpose of the exercise is, what, what the job is, that we're trying to do, we need to beef up the detail a a and start to define requirements. Now actually this is a very very good definition of the word quality. It's a very good definition, but what are the potential problems with that definition?... [speaker003:] Requirements have changed. [Mike:] W we've got a problem I think with the word, word requirements, er in several senses and Al Alastair you're absolutely right on that. Er it's a bit like shifting sands [LAUGHTER] at times, isn't it []? And... you know very well that as soon as you start to launch yourself into the world of contracting... by, by its very nature a contract a a automatically [LAUGHTER] has loopholes in it [], and the more you write in a contract the more loopholes you've got. Therefore it's actually quite difficult to define really really accurately requirements. Let me give you another, another example, if you're going to ask people to clean a railway carriage... what do you mean by clean?... [speaker003:] Do you mean inside or outside? [Mike:] Say inside.... What do we mean by clean? Well if you're going to ask some poor devil to clean er a carriage out isn't it fair to tell them what it is you mean by clean? What result you want at the end of the day? But what do we do in practice?... We just say here's a bucket. Here's a mop. You know, you know what clean is. Get on with that. Well that's not fair is it? Really? On the individual? Because it means you can always criticize the individual, for either not having done the job well enough or for having not done it quite the way you thought it ought to be done.... I think that's a good example of where defining requirements is, is quite difficult. And where defining requirements is difficult what tends to happen is that we don't bother.... Now this is where I think the Japanese score dramatically, they spend many many hours defining things which we say it's not worth the effort to define.... And if we put a little bit more effort into specifying requirements more tightly, then there'd be less argument at the end of the day as to whether [cough] we've done a good job or a bad job. And I S O Nine Thousand and quality management is very much about trying because it is, it is hard work and we can't necessarily succeed i i in every situation. But it's about trying to define requirements to the, to the best erm level and best degree. [cough] And then setting out our way of operating to, to meet the specifications and requirements that we've set for ourselves. And the fitness for purpose at the back of all this, indicates that it's not a bad idea to talk to the client. Because if you define requirements in an ivory tower and you don't talk to the client, you're gonna produce something which isn't exactly what they necessarily want. Now somebody very very er cleverly brought up the word client perception... and in fact we h were given the definition earlier from Hughie's notes, of meeting and exceeding customer expectations.... But if we are going to meet expectations of clients then really we have to know exactly what it is the client needs and would be happy with. And we have to specify internally to us what will meet the client needs and even just exceed the client needs. And that is what we have to do within the time and organization constraints which Norman er [LAUGHTER] correctly mentioned earlier []. And the whole business of managing the time, the resources and the, meeting the specifications is, is very much a matter which quality management addresses. Now as we go on I'd just like to bring in another er thought for you... is that view-graph correct?... There is no high or low quality. Is that correct?... Geoff's giving us a really really positive nod over there and a lot of very very suspicious people round the table, Geoff who don't agree with you I think. [speaker003:] ... [Mike:] What do you think? Do you agree?... [speaker003:] I would think that in the terms that you want to define it in, that statement's true but I wouldn't necessarily agree with it. [Mike:] Right. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Sorry to be awkward. [Mike:] No. No. This, this is, that's, that's really great. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. But you see what we've got here is this problem of the old definition of quality, still lurking there in the mind, quality is a degree of excellence, therefore you have high quality and low quality. But if we, if we junk that definition, and then go to conformance with requirements... we either conform with the requirements, as Geoff said, or we don't.... Now a very important issue in relation to conforming with requirements is that... we can go over the top, we can go O T T as we say.... Now then, is going over the top and spending more money and producing an absolutely stupendous job, fabulous result, is that quality?... And the answer is, no, it isn't. Because you haven't managed quality. We've got an excellent result at the end of the day, but what's the point of having an excellent result if we're bankrupt next week? And what does it tell us about our management?... W what we have to do with quality management, is introduce the horses for courses idea. I mentioned earlier the quick, slick jobs. We can't put all the bells and whistles, and all the, the checks and all the consultations and design reviews onto a job which gives us a fee income of er two thousand pounds.... We, we do have, you do have some small cheap jobs which have to be attended to very efficiently.... That's not to say that these won't be quality jobs. It's just that the quality, the conformance with requirements, will be defined differently. Okay? So we don't have low quality jobs and high quality jobs, we have quality jobs with different standards attached to them. And I think this is perhaps a slight confusion because very often, would you agree that we tend to use the quality and standard interchangeably? High standard, high quality? Low standard, low quality? Yeah? Whereas what we're trying to do with this new definition of quality now is get the idea of conformance with requirements. Er over t to ourselves. If the requirements are modest er modest requirements with modest standards, it's still a quality job if we achieve what we said we're going to do. A and the, the key to the quality idea is that we manage job in order that we achieve the modest standards and satisfy the client at the end of the day accurately. Now this, this is a difficult thing to, to take on board when we are used to idea of quality being degree of excellence. Wouldn't you agree that in normal day to day language if we see a line of cars going down a road and one of them happens to be a Rolls Royce we would say, that's the quality car? Yes? Th that would be a a normal use of the word. But in fact is a Rolls Royce a quality car if you want to go shopping and you want to be able to park it in small paces places and get round multistorey car parks?... You know all those scrapey marks on multistorey car parks? They're all made by big cars. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] So we have to accept that a car that might be fit for the purpose of shopping in, in, in a town where the parking places are small and the multistorey car parks are difficult to drive round, er er a quality car might be a Mini.... As long as it doesn't break down. Is that, is that reasonable? So quality can be a Mini, it can be a Rolls Royce. It is not automatically always a Rolls Royce. And we hopefully are going to manage our business in such a way that we can accept that a Mini is, is a quality result. If that is what we specified we wanted in the first place. Ca can you live with that? [speaker003:] I, I, I can see what you're trying to do I just think [Mike:] Great. [speaker003:] distorting the definition. [Mike:] Yes we are. Yes we are. [speaker003:] the multistorey car park. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] pay his parking ticket. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] You'd get clamped. [LAUGHTER] Would you be able to afford the two hundred pounds to get it out of the parking? [speaker003:] And I understand exactly what you're saying it's just that erm [Mike:] W we are [speaker003:] trying to change definition. [Mike:] This is why I say it's a shame that we [speaker003:] usage. [Mike:] it's a shame that we, we still carry on using the word quality. Isn't it?... T to talk about quality management. It would have been better if we'd got another word really. Yeah. So we are we are twisting the definition if you like a and, and er redefining the word which is most [speaker003:] Why? [Mike:] unfortunate. [speaker003:] Why didn't the word standard get put in the place of quality we can have standard assurance as opposed to quality assurance? [Mike:] I think one of the reasons for that Geoff is that standard... in itself is a slightly narrower word. And it tends to be used in terms of the tolerances that we've got on our drawings the word quality which has been amplified into the arena where we may actually use it to describe the whole management of the operation, not the management of the, or the second part of the tolerance of the specification. But i in, in theory there's no reason why, why we couldn't have done s sort of upset the word er standard I suppose rather than quality. But anyway w w we're on board with the the general thing which is important. I'm sorry, I'm sorry I've been a bit steady getting there, but I think it's an important issue to tackle that, quality is horses for courses and we have to accept the fact that we're gonna get prestige type jobs and quick slick jobs, especially in the beginning of March every year.... Right. Where did quality management come from? Well, I think some of you may possibly have seen this view-graph before. Have we a got a, a visitor? [speaker003:] ... [Mike:] Ha. Messages. [LAUGHTER] What a surprise. Right. If we erm look at the origins of quality.... If we go back to the middle ages we had the situation of craftsmanship, where one individual was responsible for the design of what they were doing, the selection of the materials regarding what they were doing. That individual was responsible for using hand skills... and producing a result at the end of the day.... And people... lived or died by their ability to, to produce a competent result at the end of the day. And that was fairly literal if you think in terms of the village blacksmith making a sword. [whispering] Which was about the most complex technology in those days []. Then a few hundred years later we had the industrial revolution, what was the big step change from craftsmanship to the industrial revolution?... It was the technology wasn't it? [speaker003:] [whispering] Yes []. [Mike:] [whispering] Yes. It was the introduction of technology []. What did that do for skill levels?... It produced a small number of highly skilled people didn't it? The tool makers and the people with their machinery and all the rest of it. B but for most of... [tape change] erm really debunk. There are a lot of people like that weren't there? Who were brought in at a very level. Now so erm craftsmanship in, in er in some respects was lost, although there are, are these points I have mentioned. And what was found was that the new technology didn't produce a hundred percent wonderfulness.... To coin a phrase. It didn't produce perfection, and so people introduced inspection. They introduced inspection at the beginning of processes, they introduced inspection, part way through processes and they introduced inspection at the end of the th the total process. Why do we have inspection part way through the process?... Why didn't we just check things in at the beginning and check things out at the end? [speaker003:] So you didn't waste your time if the product that was no good half way through. [Mike:] Yeah. It's it's to stop adding value to stuff that's already rubbish isn't it? Stop wasting It's a matter of waste control. That's right. Erm and inspection got pretty sophisticated. I've put quality control as something slightly separate from inspection. Would anybody like to hazard a guess as to what we could possibly mean as the difference between these two words? [speaker003:] Well you have two different kinds of quality. One. One might.... [Mike:] Right. So you're saying that an assessment of the inspection results is quality control? Well you've gotta have a definition or a standard to inspect against really, I think Geoff, as well. Otherwise you can't say it's good, bad or indifferent. But I am actually trying to get at is a slight development of what you've said. You, you, you we you were virtually there in terms of our standard understanding of these two words. Quality control is inspection with a formal feedback to the pr process. To the production process. Okay? Inspection you just, you just sit, sit there and weed things out. The good from the bad. Quality control actually formally takes the results back to the production process people, and tells them to, to adjust the process. And then we have quality assurance. [cough] This came along only in fact in the, in the late nineteen fifties early sixties. Quality control had become terribly sophisticated during the er war time era... When i a people realized it actually took longer to inspect a bullet than it did to manufacture it.... So what they did was introduce statistical techniques whereby not every bullet was inspected, a sample was inspected and great conclusions were drawn from very careful examination of a small number of, of items. Now this is all very product orientated isn't it? This, this quality management? Well what happened was that in nine in the nineteen fifties the late nineteen fifties the Americans designed and, and built six Vanguard rockets to try and catch the Russians up.... And they failed. Erm [cough] tt this is supposedly how they used to teach their kids how to count. Erm what happened was they, they got three Vanguard rockets to the launch pad, lit the blue touch paper and they exploded in great clouds of flame and smoke six feet above the launch er area. But they'd got three left. So they dissected them all with a fine-tooth comb [LAUGHTER] getting mixed metaphors. They, they brought in a heap of people to disassemble these rockets and inspectors as er examined every, every part of the rockets. They found nothing wrong. They screwed these three rockets back together, the remaining ones. Lit the blue touch paper and they all exploded in great clouds of flame and smoke six feet above the launch pad. And they realized that all their efforts in controlling quality by inspection and so on had failed. Now this particular exercise was, in fact, a major project, in management terms it was very similar to what you do.... You manage projects don't you? Very small projects and some quite large ones. And some lessons were learnt from that exercise which were enshrined in documents called Quality Systems Standards. And the lessons learned were, how to manage projects better than we'd been managing projects before.... Typically when we have problems we say, ah, the materials weren't quite right. Or we made a little fault with the design.... We didn't quite manage to construct the er item concerned adequately. We never ever have the right resources. We have people problems. And typically what we do when things go wrong is, we scurry around and sort the materials out. We allow ourselves a little bit more time to get the design right cos the reason we got it wrong in the first place was because it was a quick spend project and nobody er had time to do it properly. Erm construction, well I don't want to cast too many nationalistic comments about but there is a strange habit of employing people who do not know what they're entirely supposed to be doing. Erm resources is always a problem. We get paid and promoted for rushing round and solving problems wh that we've created for ourselves. Don't we?... There are other problems as well that we'd have to tackle. Poor planning. Erm I presume you're no different from other people? Planning is a er it is a historical activity? Isn't it? It's about reporting what you did last week? Planning, isn't it? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Mike:] Yes, I think we've got a culture block in this country with planning. Erm jus just to make you feel a little bit more comfortable about it... [speaker003:] [cough] [Mike:] er occasionally I go over to erm Hull and to run some training courses for. They've got an international training centre there, which used to be a monastery. [LAUGHTER] It's a terrible place. And erm yo you have these rooms the size of wardrobes you know? Absolutely dreadful. Anyway erm occasionally they will inflict upon the group a German person or a Swiss national. And when we give the people syndicate or group exercises to do, the group with the Swiss person or German person in it is subjected to, [mimicking] now what is it we are supposed to be doing now? We must write down the objectives of this exercise. We must plan what we are going to do []. And the Dutch and the English put up with this for about fifteen seconds.... And then they take their jackets off and rush down the road at five thousand miles an hour and when you say to them, but you're going in the wrong direction. They say, well that doesn't matter. We're having a good time. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] You know? We're busy. We're enjoying it. I think we have a, we do, a, a slight culture block on planning. Erm overbooking work. We're squeezing quarts out of pint pots. You've all got friends and relations in... er other jobs and they've all been struggling for the last two or three years haven't they? Under a lot of pressure trying to get quarts out of pint pots and I think y you you've suffered the same way. Erm never mind the quality, feel the width. You know, just get the stuff out of the gate.... Poor plant equipment is something which is, probably doesn't affect you quite directly. Erm but it would affect the people you deal with. Poor supervision. I don't mean poor supervisors, I mean at every level of management. We don't seem to get the supervision quite right, we either over do it or under do it. Poor specification. We're back to this business of quality is conformance with requirements. How much effort do we put into defining the requirements? Misunderstanding of contracts, deliberate or otherwise. And it's a well known scientific fact that quality as a degree of excellence equals Rolls Royces. Equals something that's incredibly expensive and it's a jolly good idea for other people. If they can afford it. Okay? So these are the sorts of problems we get. Now the American space scientists asked this stunning question. They said why do we get poor materials? Why do we get poor designs? Why do we plan badly? Why do we have poor supervision?... And that was the answer. There are three possible answers. Acts of God, junior staff and management. Now I know some of you will find d er find it rather difficult to distinguish between those two. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] But in all seriousness what percentage of our problems are caused by hail, rain, wind, snow, blow, fire and earthquake?... [speaker003:] Small amount. [Mike:] How [LAUGHTER] small []? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Well what percentage would you say? Guess. Think that's reasonable?... [speaker003:] It depends if it's the wrong sort of fog again. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] It depends which country you're in as well. But by and large [speaker003:] [cough] [Mike:] it's less, it's actually less than one percent. Er what percentage of problems are caused by these terrible people?... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Well shall I tell you what the directors of the construction company said? They said ninety five percent. Then they said we do accept some responsibility for about four percent of problems. And the reality is of course? [speaker003:] It's the other way. [Mike:] It's the other way round. Yes. Management have to take responsibility for over ninety five percent of the problems we get, whether they're [cough] safety problems, quality problems or whatever problems. So... what do we do about this? Well we er the obvious er immediate i idea would be to sack the management and promote the junior staff. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [cough] I think you're safe Margaret. [LAUGHTER] they didn't believe that. [Mike:] Right. So what do we do about this?... Cos management are causing ninety five percent of all our problems so what are we going to do about them?... [speaker003:] Reeducate them? [Mike:] Let's, we've got to look at what it is that management are making a mess of. And we've gotta look at a training programme haven't we? Again, if we go back to the example then it's not too personal to then is it? Erm we have twenty people in, in a group and we go around and ask then how much post school technical and professional training they've had, we would come out with an average group of a total of about a hundred years of post school professional and technical training. If we go round the same group and ask them how much management training they've had, we'd be lucky if we could dredge up fifty weeks.... Because i it is assumed management is learned by picking up the bad habits of your predecessor and their predecessors for the last five hundred years.... There's not very much really formal management train in fact as an employer, is, is really rather good compared with most people we come across. In the outside world. And in, in fact in this area. We have some wry wry smiles from some of the older people er in the group here because they er didn't get much when they were at the formative stages of their careers. Right. What I've done now is taken you through to the point where, we're asking ourselves what is it that management make a mess of?... And what can we train management in to be better? Well the answer is the index of I S O Nine Thousand and One. Because what I S O Nine Thousand and One is... is the result of the investigation that the American space scientists did in nineteen fifty nine, to find out what areas management are weak in.... And they identified in nineteen fifty nine eighteen areas of management activity that management consistently made a mess of. And in fact it's grown to twenty areas in the intervening thirty odd years, so that's not bad emp empire building really is it? thought it might have been one hundred and forty eight by now but it's not. But it's grown to twenty areas. Now I S O Nine Thousand and One is nothing more, nothing less, than a list of things that management should address a little more carefully. There's nothing revolutionary in I S O Nine Thousand and One. There aren't any bolts out of the blue. There aren't any stunning new ideas, or concepts. It's all really rather boring actually. But... what it tells us is that in these twenty areas, management should try and think about what it is they can do to prevent problems.... With the best will in the world we're not going to be perfect first time round, so we've got to have detection interaction mechanisms. But in I S O Nine Thousand and One there is also a thread of quality improvement, in each of the areas which we're supposed to address. And the quality improvement is once we have found that we've got a problem, how do we stop it recurring? How do we stop the same type of problem recurring? There's a learning curve. The theory is we do not invent the wheel every day.... Right. Now I want to hand you over to, to Dennis hop hopefully not too belatedly Dennis? And erm what I'd like is for Dennis is to explain a little about how far we've actually got with the C E D G approach to the introduction of I S O Nine Thousand. So having introduced the idea that I S O Nine Thousand is about improving our management competence, it's not about improving our technical competence, we are technically very good. It's the management that fails us. Er I'd like to r er throw it over to Dennis with the er stage there, so that er we explain how far we got in addressing these management shortcomings issues. Alright Dennis? [Dennis:] Right. Thank you very much, Mike. Quality in management systems. Well Mike has explained that quality isn't quality. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Erm and management doesn't. Er so you can be even more confused with quality management system. Erm... the next session is rather hard work for you cos it's very much sort of listening and absorbing a hell of a lot of facts, but I trust you will bear with me. And it does get easier towards lunchtime when we allow you to play.... Erm the management team is committed to the group's quality system. And the management team expect all staff to be equally committed. [cough] The system incorporates procedures which are designed to assist staff in carrying out their work in a planned, consistent and economic manner. And procedures are intended to foster and not inhibit the exercising of professional engineering judgement and creative problem solving. That's what Mike has just said. The group has got two aims, one is certification of the system to I S O Nine Thousand and One, and the second very important one is the continual improvement of the system as er to make a change in working practices, and business organizations and reorganizations.... Like all things these days we have a quality policy statement. Erm this is bound up in the group's quality system manual, which will be distributed to you on Monday. Er and much of what I'm going to say today in the next twenty minutes i it's bound in here, so there's no need to take notes. It's, it's, it's there to be read and to be worked to. [cough] The group's policy is produce work of a quality commensurate with the requirements of the job. Rolls Royce versus the Mini scenario. Quality, completion on time and safety are regarded as indivisib indivisible and quality is of course of paramount importance in our railway environment. So how do we achieve quality? You may disagree with it, but this is the management team's stated view of achieving quality. We need to have an organization structure with defined individual responsibilities. We have established procedures for carrying out the work. We agree clear remits with the clients. We ensure that those remits are fully understood by the project team before work starts. We insist the conceptual design, and I'm underlining conceptual design, is the responsibility of the function and section engineers, who have bottom line responsibility for each project.... We allocate specified assigned tasks to staff, with the necessary skills and abilities to undertake those tasks. And this experience can be gained either by formal education and or on the job training. If you haven't got the skill you should not be asked to undertake that task until you are trained or supervised. We encourage good internal and external communications. And as we brought out first thing this morning, communication within the group, that is across the functions, and also in some cases within the functions, is poor. We act as separate cells, we need to act as a team. We insist that all work leaving the office... is suitably checked, and I underline the word suitably checked. The degree of checking is determined by the section engineer responsible for the project.... We recognize that every member of the group can contribute to the development and improvement and success of the group, and we encourage every member to make their contribution to the group's success. Now there's nothing new, revolutionary, exciting in that. That is all good, sound common sense and hopefully that is what we are currently practising.... If we just first look at the organization that we have, or perhaps more correctly will have following consultation, erm I think you will agree with me that the, the roles and responsibilities of those people are fairly well defined. The group engineer, function heads and project team and section engineers. If we just quickly look at the role of the project coordinator. The man in the middle there. Or person in the middle. Sorry. All work within the group is assigned as projects, and for each project a project coordinator is appointed. Project coordinator will almost invariably be a section engineer. However, when the complexity of the job demands it, he will be a function engineer. In addition to their other responsibilities, the project coordinator is responsible for a number activities. He is responsible for developing and agreeing the total C E D G remit with the client. Not the function remit, the total remit.. He is also the formal point of contact between the group and the client and as such he is required to coordinate the group's, group's activities on a giv given project. He will, in cooperation with section engineers and team quantity surveyors, develop project quality plans, and we'll explain those later today, and he will also sign off the project quality plan and the client's appointment contract. Additionally he will sign off client reports. And the client reports are a single report covering all the functions on a specified project.... The section engineer, who can also be a project coordinator,a as I've explained, is responsible for directing the group of project engineers and for overviewing all aspects of the project within his section, to ensure that they are technically adequate... t to ensure they are technically adequate, have quality and we are providing safe service to the client. He is also responsible for appointing the project team within his own section. And also responsible for preparing the project quality plan for his section. The project engineer is responsible for the day to day development of the project and he will undertake the requirements of a project quality plan to meet all the necessary current standards. And the project engineer will be assisted by resident engineers, designers, detailers, quantity surveyors and not forgetting, of course, clerical support. We tend to forget the clerks.... And that really is the fundamental principles behind the management procedures and the group's quality system. It's what we've been working at for the last three years.... The set up I've described there aligns itself with the manner in which most consultants work. In essence, the section engineer is equivalent to an associate, and takes bottom line responsibility for all his projects. That is completion on time, to spec and within the fee-bid.... Let's look at the group's procedures with emphasis on the quality system. Our quality system, like any other, has two interrelated aspects. They are our clients needs and expectations and our own needs and expectation and i interests. As a service organization, we must continually meet the needs and expectations of our clients and in the most economic way. To meet these aspirations we must make the best use of our human, technological, material and financial resources and this must be done within the framework of a well planned and a well managed system. Our clients also need the assurance and confidence that we have the ability to provide a service which consistently meets their requirements. Therefore it is necessary to maintain documentary evidence that our system not only exists, but is being operated as intended. And the above factors form the basis of our quality system. Very much a regurgitation of what Mike said this morning. If we just look at that system and the hierarchy of documentation that forms the system, hopefully things will start to gel with you with regard to the management procedures.... At the top we have I S O Nine Thousand and One. Erm beneath I S O Nine Thousand and One we have the group's quality manual. And the quality manual are the white sheets contained within this red folder. Beneath the quality manual we have quality systems and qual sorry. Sorry. Quality system procedures which also include project quality plans. And beneath those we have the much loved management procedures. This in essence is the key for the group's system. If we look at management er procedures... Could ask the question but I'm, the mo more cynical of you will er not answer in the right way, what are management procedures? They aim to collect together the best practices from within the group. Those that have been found to work. And then to communicate these to all of our staff. They're quite simply a collection of directives.... Or instructions which advise the staff how a particular project, how a particular task is undertaken with guidance on why we do it. Who is responsible for the task, and who makes the decisions. Which members of the organization need to be involved in that task, and which don't. And they also contain the standard pr proforma used within the group. They're live documents which are subject to revision as the organization changes and as we improve. And they are there to be worked to until such time as we find a better way of doing it. They provide uniformity across the group. They ensure that best practice is adopted. They cut out Spanish practice and job creation which is rife, or has been rife, within some quarters of the group. In essence they are the group's instruction manual, or practice notes as our architectural mem er colleagues prefer to call them. Quite simply they are documented work statements for specific activities which rationalize and standardize the current working practice throughout the group. [speaker003:] [cough] [Dennis:] They can be considered under three headings....... There are those which address the acquirement the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand... and One [whispering] I S O Nine Thousand []? I S O Nine Thousand and One through project quality plans. Those which fulfil the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One erm through quality system procedures. And those which have absolutely no affect on the quality of the service that we provide to our client, but they form Board requirements, legal and other requirements, admin arrangements, local instructions and policy. That is, is drawn to scale. Seventy five percent of what is contained within the blue manual, has nothing to do with the quality of the service that we provide to our clients.... What we've attempted to do is to put all of our instructions into one manual, so that we don't view quality as an add-on or something extra. It is all part of living and breathing, doing things that come naturally.... Does that help? Begin to help?... [speaker003:] [cough] [Dennis:] If we then look at the quality manual, which is the, the white document, contained within here. This is very much an overview document and describes the way in which the group conducts its business. It is the document which can be viewed by our existing and prospective clients to enable them to gain an insight into our quality system. It defines how our quality system relates to us and our activities. And it describes how the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One are satisfied within the group. And it forms a reference document to the full scope of a quality system. And it is the document which the quality auditors will initially use to check that the quality system exists, is operating and is fit for the purpose. Now because the quality manual is very much an overview document, we need to introduce more detailed documents which control the day to day operation of the quality system. And these are called the quality system procedures. And again they're bound in here. There are seven quality system procedures. In essence these are stand-alone management procedures except they are printed on pink paper.... I'm not numerically dys dyslexic by the way, I put them in that order [LAUGHTER] for, for a reason []. We have quality system procedure number one, which is the quality reference summary. This will be used almost exclusively by quality auditors at the start of the audit trail and provide a simple matrix. Er and this is an extract from, from it, it provides a simple erm matrix which identifies the clause in I S O Nine Thousand and One, and then identifies which management procedure or quality system procedure er relates to that particular clause in I I S O Nine Thousand and One. This starts to unravel the blue book, hopefully, and identifies those which refer to the quality,whi which are quality procedures, and those which are the other procedures.... Q S P Six er gives generic job descriptions and sets down broad responsibility statements relating to quality and safety.... Q S P Seven, project quality plans, we are going to be talking about in great detail after the after coffee, and also through your playtime at lunchtime.... You have to remember that all work assigned within the group is organized as projects and as a service organization no two of our projects are identical. Consequently those sections of I S O Nine Thousand and One which deal with project specific act activities, are addressed through project quality plans. Quality system procedures two to five, provide the mechanism by which our quality system is constantly reviewed, updated and improved. And this afternoon Mike is going to be talking about nonconforming product control, corrective actions and internal quality audits. Erm and this is really the mechanism by which you can ensure the continuous or continual improvement of the quality system. And it echoes the group's quality statement that recognizes that all staff have a voice, and this voice should be heard. These procedures will give you the opportunity of getting your voice heard.... Quality system procedure two, talks about how the management team pick up suggestions made by yourselves through Q S P Three, and set about making decisions for improvement of the group's quality system, the service that we provide to our clients. And that really is group's quality system. [speaker003:] [cough] [Dennis:] And hopefully I've ou I've hopefully you've found nothing too painful in what I've outlined there. And hopefully I've shown you the key that unravels some of the mystery of the blue book. The blue book is really our instruction manual, and the red book unlocks that to help us identify those procedures which affect the quality of service that we provide to our clients. Erm now, the other thing I mentioned at the beginning was certification of the system. And I recognize there are a few people here, here who are not P Way people. Erm... Works, Q S, Business Manager, B E S have been through the same process as you're going through today. Erm and you are currently here erm and your teach-ins. Tomorrow the other half of the P Way section will be having their teach-ins and on Monday the intention is that quality system procedures, quality plans etcetera, will be introduced within the P Way office. Currently working in the works office, Q S and the business managers and B E S. And in the middle of June the bridge office will be going through the same exercise and June the nineteenth, I think, it's the Monday everyone within the group will be working to the group's quality systems. [speaker003:] [cough] [Dennis:] And we're shortly to appoint some erm consultant assessor who will assess our system, and we will run our, have our system in place for a period of about four months. Er and I'm quite sure there'll be quite a bit of change to many of our procedures. There are currently procedures which are absent, which will need to be introduced. And the intention is that by the end of this year our system will be certified to I S O Nine Thousand and One.... Okay?... And that [speaker003:] [cough] [Mike:] I'd just like to say one thing Dennis. What's the difference between B S five seven five O and I S O Nine Thousand? [speaker003:] I S O Nine Thousand is an internationally. [Mike:] Yeah.. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [cough] [Mike:] Yes. There isn't any difference. It's the same document. It's just that erm the I S O version, as you quite rightly say, is sort of recognized and used in other countries. And the fact that it's got a B S label means that it's the, the indigenous one to the U K really. But the content of I S O Nine Thousand and B S five seven five O are the same. the same.... We're using I S O Nine Thousand as a result of Board policy. Okay. Coffee time. [Dennis:] Yes. We're, we're currently running about fifteen minutes late. Lun lunch time is fixed for twelve so we must get.... [tape stops and starts] [Mike:] Did you?... [tape stops and starts] Is? [Clare:] Yeah. [speaker003:] tape running? [Mike:] I should perhaps apologize on behalf of the hotel for the temperature in the room this morning er I stayed here last night and woke up to find that not only was there no heat in the radiators, but there was no heat in the hot water. There wasn't any hot water. They had a major boiler breakdown last night. Two boilers failed. Er so, so there's a distinct lack of central heating. Even more remarkable lack of hot water so if you can bear with us on that I can see we've got some out outdoor fiends who are quite happy to be sitting here without any jackets on but other people doing, doing the opposite. [speaker003:] for Dennis. [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] window to cool it down? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Yes. Erm something we did omit, which we should not have done, earlier was to mention the fire escape scenario and that is that if you go out of this door, just the coffee table there's a large marked fire exit. So if we hear any screeching noises or bells, which er don't turn off after a very very short period of time, we are to er make our way in an orderly fashion to the er base of the staircase of the fire escape, following the fire escape er signs. Something we should have mentioned earlier no doubt about that. But er I think from a comfort point of view er if you do feel the need to go to the toilet, please don't er think that you've got to put your hand up and ask. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] If, if, if, if you do that you'll have everybody wanting to go. Right. Are we ready [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] to reconvene?... [speaker003:] [cough] [Mike:] We had a very very quick introduction to the idea of I S O Nine Thousand at the end of my little session. I S O Nine Thousand is nothing more, nothing less than a list of management activities that need more attention. More careful attention from the average management group. Dennis explained how the C E D G documented quality system is structured. And I now want to introduce the idea of quality planning. And then in a few minutes Dennis is going to join with me in explaining to you how we are going to make the quality planning procedure work for you.... We've already decided that a typical organization will in fact use the same procedures and work instructions on all its work, because an, a typical organization manufactures ice-creams. Or it makes nuts and bolts. And they do the same thing day in day out. And the way in which a hierarchy of documentation is structured in such an organization, is by having policy from which procedures are developed, from which working structures cascade. Now, it is possible to force-fit this type of approach into your kind of work. But it's not very practical and it's not very sensible. Because you're going to need different procedures on different projects, and you're going to need different degrees of checking, and different degrees of emphasis on the different types of project that you get. The prestige project, the complex project or the quick, slick project.... In terms of your organization, I think we've got something and it won't surprise you, a little bit more complicated than the normal Trebor Mint factory, or whatever. And what we have are as follows, one, a manual, which Dennis mentioned in the red folder. Core quality procedures which we've separated out into Q S Ps One to Seven. The job descriptions, the nonconformance control, the management review. How to organize a quality plan. We've got the admin instructions, how to go and claim your expenses. How to hire a car. We've got various procedures within the group management procedures. Now, what we have to do is organize for ourselves a mechanism whereby, for any particular project, we use the procedures that are necessary for that project. We do not invoke the use of every single management procedure and every single quality procedure on all projects. Otherwise we're back to that for force-fit trian triangular approach, as evidenced on the previous view-graph. Now the key to explaining to people doing any particular project, are which procedures is the quality plan. So for any particular project we want a quality plan which will tell us what the client brief is, tell us which procedures we're going to use from the suite of procedures available within C E D G, and following the dictates of the quality plan which will be individual for each individual project, we get an output. There is a procedure on quality planning and that's what Dennis is going to er be talking about very very shortly, and this will explain how we generate an individual quality plan. But I want to, I want you to get the idea clear in your minds about what a quality plan is. So, first and foremost, it's the mechanism which selects the appropriate procedures from within the C E G, E, C E D G documentation to help you er run a project in a managed way. Now, why do we have quality plans? Well they achieve quite a lot. They introduce standards for project management. A quality plan will include objectives for the project which are agreed with the client. Remember when we defined quality earlier, we talked about fitness for purpose? And that involved talking to the client to find out what it was they wanted? What their expectations were? Perhaps even perceptions? A quality plan will explain the scale and er numbers of checks that are involved. The I S O Nine Thousand document actually allows quite a lot of self-checking. It's very...

[Trevor:] I said there's no need to lock it Mike, it's alright, you know. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] I just come back er ladies and gentlemen to apologize for this morning's cock up, I mean it was totally inexcusable of me. Er I'll explain why it happened an and then perhaps you'll hopefully find that you can forgive me, and er then I'll go on and say one or two of the things that I was gonna say this morning but er didn't. I made the mistake this morning of trying to squeeze in er before I came here to just cl try and clear another task. Er that was silly er I didn't allow myself sufficient time to prepare for this opening and ob obviously to compose myself. The result of that was that by the time I'd rushed across the road, dashed up the stair well found the place, dashed up the stairs, I was out of breath and er hadn't composed myself and I just res resembled a quivering blob that er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] that left you about er twenty past nine. [speaker002:] [cough] [Trevor:] I'd unnecessarily put myself in a stressful situation. It's rather interesting that the only two management er training courses I did last year, were er stress management and time management and I seem to cocked them both up [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Er anyway as I say er I realized when I'd started talking er that I was digging a bigger and bigger hole for myself so I er I climbed out of it and and made an exit. [Dennis:] And passed me the shovel. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Er i it was insulting to you and I apologize for that. Both for not being prepared, not giving the opening of this course the importance that it did deserve, and obviously for the embarrassment that er you must have felt having to sit there while I made a total fool of myself. Interesting as well that on the subject here to discuss quality, and I didn't bother to, to put a quality presentation together. A a again I am very very sorry. If I'm g go over things that Dennis covered or that have already been covered this morning, I, I will be brief a and I just wanted to say these are some of my personal views on the quality initiatives. Er I know Hugh er a and many of the management team erm share most of them erm a i if not all of them. Our quality systems are about defining what we as a group are gonna do for our clients, our customers. Er without the customers there's no point in us being here at all. And we're gonna define when we're gonna come up with the goods as well. What are we gonna do? When are we gonna do it by? A are the two things that the client's interested in. Th the cost obviously i is a third point. But, but once we've discus defined who's gonna do what within the quality systems that, then we've got something to, to make a start from. And the quality systems will help us to monitor and identify where things are going wrong and once we know what is going wrong, we've got an opportunity to put it right. And that then gives us this spiral of improvement which is bound to impact on everything that we do. The management team are fully committed to the group's quality initiative. We consider that investment in quality is as important as improving the working environment, which we've obviously been er doing slowly over the last three years. And investing in CAD [speaker002:] [cough] [Trevor:] and MOS equipment, which again,we we've b successfully been doing over the last two or three years. So i i it sits side by side with the erm items that we'd decided are important for us to achieve our visions. The good housekeeping exercise which we've just circulated the documents on, which we'll be consulting on in two weeks time tt er it mainly is about changing the organization to allow us to delegate authority down to an appropriate level. And to ensure that we act as a group and not just a collection of separate offices. Er this of course will then improve the quality of the service which our customers receive. You'll have been briefed, I'm sure, about the two day management get-together that we're gonna have at Scarborough next week. All the function heads, most of the section engineers, all the team quantity surveyors and a good number of er senior project engineer, M S three type levels are gonna be there. I, I don't know how we're gonna get Bob's fishing rod on the train I'm a little bit worried about it but erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Get Bob on the. [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] getting him off the dodgems perhaps will be a bigger problem. Er the reason for the get-together is for us to look closely at the aspirations of the group within the immediate future, and taking us forward three to five years. Three to five years seems quite a long way forward in the current uncertain climate. But we've called the er the seminar, Shaping the Future. And I think you can rest assured that the quality systems will be the foundations onto which we will build any changes which are identified as being necessary, as part of next week's get-together. Without quality systems in place, we won't be able to tender in the future for design work which a lot of our clients will be offering. It was only because we had the quality systems in place, okay we didn't have accreditation er at the time, but the quality systems were in place, that we were invited to tender for the Crossrail project for Rickmansworth station. So again, everything comes back to quality and the C E D G being er essential a a and really er a building block for our future survival. [speaker002:] [whispering] Okay []. [Trevor:] Would it be alright if I stayed for the rest of the afternoon? [Dennis:] I think actually Trev that was very very timely, cos that really sort of encapsulated what we said this morning, so thank you very much for coming back. Er You might have to find your own chair actually. [Trevor:] Oh right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] I can stand at the back. [Dennis:] Right erm wh what we propose doing now i is just to, I've written up er your, inverted commas, answers o on the board. Erm we'll just er look at th those have a good bit of a laugh and a bit of a chuckle. Erm the idea then is to, to swap your project quality plans around the groups and then for each, the leader of each group to critique those plans, just briefly, a few minutes er and present that to the erm t to the group. And hopefully that will stimulate some discussion. Right. So tho those are the estimates of cost. Er they range from, sorry can you see that? They range from eight thousand two hundred and fifty pounds through to eighteen thousand one hundred and fifty. Erm I shall pass no comment on those, but I do know whose was the lowest bid. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] And we said it would be. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Erm [speaker002:] Cheapskate. [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] It's only because your boss is here, isn't it Bill? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Erm issue of drawings to the er the client er the client wished to know, wished to know this. Er three of you told him when he was going to get it. Erm it's perhaps en encompassed in that which is the total completion er for the fourth group. And you also told the client [speaker002:] [cough] [Dennis:] er two of you told him when he was going to get the estimates. Erm [Norman:] Er [Dennis:] again [Norman:] can you just alter the third one to the thirty first of August ninety three? [Dennis:] Sorry. Which one? [speaker002:] That one. [Norman:] That one you had your pen on. [Dennis:] That's three is it? Sorry. Beg your pardon. I was doing it under the covers you see? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Erm so er I mean it could be argued that those figures go in there. I'm a a and they're not too bothered about that. Erm group number one offered to advise the client when he 'd when they'd finished the survey. Not too sure you would actually do that without erm,I, I've got no real comment on that i quite so simply [speaker002:] [cough] [Mike:] Okay Dennis? [Dennis:] Yeah. [Mike:] What I'd like is [speaker002:] ? [Mike:] Not yet. Because we're going to wait [Dennis:] till you've s till er [LAUGHTER] you're present []. [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] We're going to wait till er we've heard your critique on each other 's until we make our minds up. We'd like groups one and two to swap for comment please, and gr and groups three and four to swap for comment. Now could you get together and spend five or six minutes as a group, having a look at the other group's presentation and could you please make a note of the following. The good points, the points you disagree with completely, but most importantly of, of all, would you have been able to have worked from that particular quality plan as presented to you? In other words, was the quality plan sufficiently well completed for you to be able to utilize it? In earnest? So if you could just spend five or six minutes doing that and could we come back at twenty five past two please. Okay? [speaker002:] ... [tape stops and starts] for me? young lady. from there. [LAUGHTER] from the end. [LAUGHTER] You're as bad as. Yeah. We're running. Testing testing. early on. [LAUGHTER] Right. Have w have we got one then? What's that? [Norman:] Right. [speaker002:] Right. Do you wanna? Is it group four's erm plan? No it's not group four cos they'll all escape. [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Group four. Yeah. Er so [cough] Yeah. Let's, can you see that Roger? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] So they've got the project number Toytown. no problem there. Er we I can't remember if we [speaker002:] be an R O R O W one? Yeah. R O W's a bit odd. That one's misleading Mhm. for a kick off. Do you want to make a note of that? Mm. [Norman:] And extension varies by designs. Erm [speaker002:] Not R O W. [Norman:] Alistair erm he's, he's made himself er he has made himself coordinator. [speaker002:] And section engineer. [Norman:] And section engineer. I didn't sign it as coordinator. [speaker002:] Mm. [Norman:] Project engineer is Brian. [speaker002:] Right. [Norman:] No problem there really. that one. [speaker002:] Have they got all the sections filled in? Didn't notice. Survey? It would be sent back if it wasn't filled in wouldn't it? Survey is all we said wasn't it? Mm. Yeah. We haven't got some of our headings. No. [Norman:] Er project manager. Yeah the same trouble as er [speaker002:] We just put today's date on which is fair Yeah. enough isn't it? Yeah. [Norman:] IBIS I didn't notice. Did you? [speaker002:] They've made that up I think. Mhm. [Norman:] Mm. [speaker002:] O Eight Nine Eight isn't it? IBIS numbers One O Two Double O. [Norman:] Mhm. Survey of design. Er th they should have done the estimate [speaker002:] Thirty percent. got thirty estimates there. [Norman:] Now then [speaker002:] ? Good man. That's against what, sorry? Er project remit. Project remit. Well they've written it in but they haven't ticked it. They haven't got any specification laid out. [whispering] [] [whistling] Alright. So [Norman:] Mm. [speaker002:] affect that. Shouldn't they tick this box? [Norman:] N erm [speaker002:] Oh I see what you mean. Yeah. fill ours out. [Norman:] Specification. Well we did because we said we'd have to specify what to. They'll produce design drawings and thirty percent estimates er one and a half miles of train line. One down, one mile on the up, double junction below twenty mile an hour speed limit. Agreed that. up. [speaker002:] diverting and land purchase negotiations. [Norman:] Yeah. [cough] W we did exactly er We, we, we just sort of noted it on there [speaker002:] Mm. [Norman:] and there. Er now then [speaker002:] They haven't got er meeting, anything about wh er A weekly report. No repo no mention of a report [Norman:] No. [speaker002:] reporting [Norman:] Yeah. [speaker002:] at a at any intervals. [Norman:] No. Ah. Right. Let's have a little look here. All they've done here is done liaison with the S and T. I would have thought that was really irrelevant. Since we know what the speed is. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. Yeah. [Norman:] Er that is, is valid. But erm no reference to locating services [speaker002:] Mm. [Norman:] which will want to know. N no er reference to access and land ownership which we need to know for the survey. W we w we would need to know and be involved in locating services. [speaker002:] Our works bridges responsibility statement not completed. [Norman:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's. Works bridges responsibility statement not completed. Yeah. [Norman:] Ownership we would want to er erm mm. No milestone dates quoted. [speaker002:] No milestone. [Norman:] And er project meetings not allowed for. [speaker002:] No allowance project meetings. Mhm. And theirs was nearly twice the price of ours. They just added their [Norman:] Er I think they, they were a bit more [LAUGHTER] my, my gut feeling on this what it would cost somewhere around about twenty five grand [speaker002:] Mm. [Norman:] er to honest. That er it in actual fact and I'm gonna hold you lads to all this. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Erm Yeah. Erm No cross-sections. [speaker002:] No cross-sections. Right. [Norman:] Erm [speaker002:] This is on the project quality plan now is it? [Norman:] Only one longitudinal section drawing, it would b it would be a big one. [speaker002:] Yeah. But we need? [Norman:] Yeah. That'll be, we, we sort of weighed up from the length of what we had to show [speaker002:] Mm. [Norman:] and we, we reckoned er alright. they've shown their certificate of er compliance. Won't argue about that, we didn't. [speaker002:] Okay.... [whistling] [Norman:] Not much really [speaker002:] There's a lot of technical work supervision in there. My God. [Norman:] Mm.... [speaker002:] Maybe they're allowing thousand six hundred hours?... [Norman:] It seems that, that seems a lot. Do you agree? [speaker002:] Yeah. Hell of a lot. Yeah. [Norman:] Query. [speaker002:] Is that just for supervision? Not the actual technical work itself? That's just supervision or does that mean the technical work and supervision? [Norman:] Well I think we should query this. This is on appendix D two one. Er technical supervision, query two thousand six hundred hours. Which is nearly a year. [speaker002:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Two thousand six hundred two thousand six hundred hours? [Norman:] Well it's over a year a on er working days. That's at ten hours a day. [speaker002:] How many hours did we put down for working on? Two thousand six hundred at twenty pound an hour? How long did we say for the survey? A week each? That's. Yeah. Oh no, two weeks wasn't it? [Norman:] Yeah. It's cos it's er [speaker002:] The thing is should have been nearly seventy five hundred. We've got five hundred down for [Norman:] That's right. One fifty and two sixty two seven five O. [speaker002:] right surely. But if that's hours [Norman:] Seems a seems a lot. [speaker002:] That must be DOPACS units.... [Norman:] Well [speaker002:] Ah. [Norman:] possibly. But a again erm [speaker002:] Because An hour far too much. if you were, if you add two thousand seven hundred and fifty hours at twenty pound an hour you'd be well over eighteen thousand. [Norman:] Yeah. So th th are the are these DOPACS units then? [speaker002:] Yeah. I think they must be. Mm. Oh right. Mm. Yeah. That means the survey comes out roughly at what we estimated. Yeah. [Norman:] Right. Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Norman:] Er Okay then. Right. That's that explained. Well they, they've put the thirty estimates er thirty percent estimates in there. That we, we just showed them over here, apart from that th their format's the same.... [speaker002:] [whistling]... [Norman:] Yeah. These are DOPACS units. [speaker002:] Mm.... Mm. [Norman:] Can you see where the escalation is c in cost is? Ah. Right. They've got earthworks. Earthworks in. That's, that's for a start.... [speaker002:] And photographs. And photographs. Yeah. But they're not supposed to include it.... Er if they'd kept it separate. Don't liaison between Yeah. It's [Norman:] Yeah. So if you take fifteen hundred off then that erm [speaker002:] It was eighteen thousand I think it was more or less.... Plus sixteen. Plus photo plus photographs and they've seventeen fifty really. [Norman:] We have. So er we've sort of er beaten it down at bit. [speaker002:] points. Well there is there is a particular section for the photographs I think we've figured that one out actually. Oh have you? Er which is that? Yeah. ... They're on. [LAUGHTER] They have lot of technical work supervision. Two seven fifty divided by sixty three. What's that? It's about three weeks isn't it? That's a hell of a lot more than we put in didn't we? Yeah. Didn't we put er ten percent Yeah. of the job in didn't we? Yeah. We put a couple of days in I think in total. Yeah. That's where it's bumped up Norman.... [Norman:] It's er i erm tho those are DOPACS units, so if we e if we er divide by [speaker002:] Well it's two hundred and something and a. Now what was it? It was three hundred and fif three and sixty five DOPACS units? About a week isn't it? Seventy five seventy threes? [Norman:] Three six five isn't it. [speaker002:] Yeah. Three six five a week so Erm Erm [Norman:] Wh what's that? [speaker002:] Six weeks roughly. Eight weeks. Eight weeks near enough isn't it? Yeah.... [Norman:] Eight weeks. [speaker002:] No. That's totally over the top isn't it really? [Norman:] Mm. [speaker002:] But that er technical supervision seems very high. Which form's that on? That's on er Project plan D Five Eight. D D Five Eight.... It's prog er Technical work supervision. And he's got eight weeks. Mm.... They've got too many.... [whistling] I've put all the er the grades in the wrong way round. [LAUGHTER] They haven't done any or work operation checks. I started with highest worked on to the lowest. Ah. Is that on. Is that on another sheet? They haven't allowed for any [Norman:] Fees are. Detailed design. That's the one. Th they've got that [speaker002:] Right. [Norman:] there. [speaker002:] [whistling] [Norman:] It's a pity we've not got a copy of our own. [speaker002:] Mm. [whistling] [Norman:] So what have we got Adam? [speaker002:] Right. These are the points that we disagree on. Erm on the main header document, not R O Double O. Form D One, the project remit, no thirty percent estimates. No mention of any reporting. Works and bridges responsibility statement not completed. As well for the. Also no project meeting. And the project quality plan there's no cross-section drawings. Are you nearly ready? Yes. Okay. Don't what the good points were we haven't said any yet. And on extra works supervision. No. We haven't. single good point about it. [Norman:] Erm Well basically [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. It's realistic. The writing was good. Yeah. Oh did we have a look at that? Good point.... It was okay.... ... tape stops and starts] [Mike:] Okay. Might I remind you please that when you're speaking into the group could you try and speak up a little bit because we've still got the tapes going. And er this young lady, Clare's terribly interested in the way in which we're using our language today, so er I hope that doesn't inhibit you. Right. Group three. Could we please have your comments? [Norman:] [cough] Er group three. We're commenting on er er group four's erm er quality plan. Erm we don't see a great deal of difference that they've had the same problem as we've had, in that we ran out of time before we could put the er finished act together properly. Er so we've started off with a number of relatively nitpicking erm erm points. For instance the title we thought R O W was Toytown station, R O W was misleading cos b R O W stands for Renewal Of Way. Probably doesn't describe the project er correctly. Erm on the second sheet form D One the er erm thirty percent estimate box hadn't been ticked. Er there was a fairly comprehensive er specification. Erm in some ways more erm comprehensive than one that we provided. I i but missing out items that er that we'd shown. Erm also there was no er reference to er the er er frequency of reports at the bottom of the er bottom of the sheet. Er which er I suspect was due to the th the insufficient time to carry out the exercise. On the second sheet er of D One, the responsibility statement, er there were just a couple of boxes er ticked. Erm liaising with the operations manager route speed potential, since we know the route speed is twenty miles an hour, er I felt that probably wasn't really a vital item. On the other hand I would have ticked s erm location of services er and public and utility because th these are things that we need to know at the design stage. Likewise obviously for land and access, because we will need to know that for the survey work involved. Erm most of the other items o on the works and bridges would have been the responsibility of the project manager to er them. But those two in particular we felt that er we would do that as part of our er a an essential part of what we were trying to design. Er there's no, no milestones dates er er quoted but these of course have been given [speaker002:] [cough] [Norman:] so they have been considered. Erm number of projects meetings er wasn't er wasn't completed, and the boxes at the bottom er but er planning permission was erm ticked as a constraint er I wondered what the basis was behind that, for ticking it? Right. So that was the er the access t plan. Right. [speaker002:] Okay. [Norman:] Erm on the er process check list, erm a difference from ourselves which does the affect the price of group three, which we purposefully left out, they have quoted er a price for a soils investigation. Er we left that out because of Dennis' assurance that it was just our costs, but these are, this is certainly something that we would have to er add to our cost. And er also incidentally a cost for the P Q S, because the P Q S would do estimates for the earthworks th that are involved which is outside our normal line of duty. Er [cough] so that's an item included that we didn't have on ours. I wouldn't er b just at a brief gla glance I didn't er agree with the er drawing schedule. It's quite different from ours. We saw ourselves as having to do erm a considerable number of cross-sections for calculating, or enabling the P Q S to calculate earthworks quantities. We had no assurance of the ground between Road and Toytown as flat. So a w we saw cross-sections as being the big item here, whereas er Alistair's team er didn't er didn't see it as such. Erm on the er er project plan D Five P, erm without having our own to compare with, a bit difficult to do, again o the e the fifteen hundred for earthworks investigations included which we haven't included. There's also a very valid item for photos which we hadn't included. Two hundred and fifty pounds er which certainly would be er done. The o only thing that we felt w we could take issue on was on the project resource sheet, erm technical work supervision. There was erm a total of two thousand six hundred units allocated to Brian which we thought [speaker002:] [cough] [Norman:] was er a bit steep. [Mike:] three and a half hours of work. [speaker002:] Mm. [Mike:] three and half of his time. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Erm but if you translate that into er er into days it's quite a substantial amount and er erm again in our plan we'd thought in terms of a complete MOS design er where the input would be probably more on the checking side, than actual on the, actually on the supervision. Cos you can see from our price that anticipating very a rapid er a very rapid completion. So really there's only that item w w we felt that particular one was a bit er a bit steep and er the rest was er a a difference in emphasis, I would suspect, coupled with shortage of time [Mike:] Was it, was it a workable plan as it stood? [Norman:] Er yes. [Mike:] Good.. [Norman:] Yeah. A a subject to er th the I think my main objection to it would be that the lack of reference to cross-sections, which on you without knowledge of the ground could or could not be viable. [Mike:] . Well you got quite a lot out of being able to evaluate. [Dennis:] as a project engineer or team member or one of the troops doing the job, if you were presented with that, you could have done what you'd been asked to do? [Norman:] As far as we can judge in five minutes, yes. [Mike:] Yes. That's. Gro group two, would you like to tell us about? [speaker002:] there's a shortage of actual evaluating. Erm the quality project plan needs filling in erm certainly with I c couldn't with that. Erm and again the second sheet, form D One erm the fine details erm and the er the remit er gave a reasonably adequate to work to. Er the C E G responsibility statement form D One erm er erm bypassed that, by writing er a rider on that they assumed concept will be agreed for surveying er feasibility. Er and that the with er nothing more than to get on and do it. I think some of the erm er they've crossed all the P Way ones out and er appear not to have crossed any of the works, bridges, B E S out. Er they tried to write a rider to bypass it completely, but I don't know whether that is sound. I think maybe they should have perhaps covered [cough] certain. Erm the process check list erm again they've identified the people on each erm and within that they've actually nominated people to look at the land ownership which is the, on the ignored with their rider on the previous sheet. Er but again nominate people erm to do the different works. Erm they haven't quantified the number of drawings to be done. Erm again it's a question of time I'm sure they would have been probably reasonably er adequate. Er the project resources sheet erm again th th the erm it's identify erm the quantities do seem about right. Erm there's, they haven't added up one of the boxes, and I believe that in terms of erm its actual cost. Er and that query made on how they are going to actually evaluate the plan. Erm once they've they've gone off this sheet and it's been transferred incorrectly to the project plan and the price of the plan. Er but the plan itself the DOPACS units haven't been actually completed and therefore they could be running at a loss. Erm the actual form D three five erm bar chart was filled in with er milestone dates and nominates people. And again some of them have different values of units. Er within the erm procedural responsibility statement th there's no milestones mentioned er form D three five. [Mike:] So what, what you're saying [speaker002:] But [Mike:] really [speaker002:] o overall er the plan looks reasonably sound except for the which er reflect in the price. I could work to it. [Mike:] But what we also said tha that's quite encouraging, John, is that there is an ability to crosscheck the costing that you've achieved with the information previously entered onto these other forms. In which case er given a little bit more time to fill the thing in, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Mike:] erm there i it's not just a matter of plucking a figure out of thin air, but you can see the justification for the full fee-bid, and you can er crosscheck the accuracy of the fee-bid as well. [speaker002:] Yes.. [Mike:] Good. Right. Group er one please. What comments have you got? [speaker002:] Erm group one commenting on group two. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Sheet one was er as we wha what was expected. No problems with that. We were a little unsure ourselves whether were actually doing scheme work or design. Er we always think we do a little scheme work within design. But whatever er it's difficult to on, on that. Erm form D One, the pink one, er there was no reporting timescales, weekly intervals er or whether they were going to report on completion. Erm and that is or could be the only approach to the client once the job starts, so we thought it was fairly important. Erm works, bridges, B E S subjects, as John rightly said, we missed out erm one or two of these and tended to ignore the things that were under works, bridges and B E S. Er and as John said, one or two of them were probably relevant and we didn't make er notes on those. Erm and, and and, and probably those points are erm of interest and some of them er will have to be taken into account. Er there was no constraints erm within the project or within the responsibility statement on saying that somebody else should be responsible for certain things that we felt were outside our, our remit. Erm obviously. The quality plan, erm a lot of ticks, but no names, apart from the detailed design drawings and I, we thought that the quality plan, the idea was to pin somebody down to being responsible for each actual item erm. Yes. What really we thought was the idea of this to pin them down into er in who was doing it and when. Er and we thought that there should have been initials against every item that was ticked. Erm t just to er well there was a l a certain lack of time on this thing, I mean, Dennis had to come round and tell us to start our tick-list else we weren't gonna. Er and if he'd of walked up to John two minutes later he probably wouldn't have made it because we had a right erm but we did feel there had to be some initials. Even if we made somebody's up. [LAUGHTER] Erm [LAUGHTER] getting down to the project re resource sheets er Jack w we felt that even though our bid was fairly low, even a adjusted for a full calculation. Now we, we did feel that erm the difference between our bid an and erm the team two bid, was mainly down to erm correspondence and project en administration. That in fact we were looking at almost two months' work erm for project engineering, when in fact that scheme would have been condensed down into project engineering. Erm then correspondence two hours for two people. Erm client reports again, technical work supervision there was a lot of time a and we just felt that erm for a full year. That's right. The longer it That's, that's, but, but actually if they look at the DOPACS times, for the people doing the work, the surveyors and the designers, they can do their work in two months which is spread out over a year. Now spreading it over a year means that the project administration jumps dramatically, and there's about four, five thousand pounds' worth in there. Er and we felt that was a bit excessive. Erm [sneeze] No fighting gentlemen. [LAUGHTER] Well No but forty hours is about er fifteen. [Mike:] Don't don't worry too much about [speaker002:] Okay. Whatever we just we just felt that we were probably very mean on our project administration. That we didn't want to put too many people on the back of the people actually doing the work. And we felt that team two have gone the other way,tha that the work spread out and actually when you looked at the, at the project plan at the back, erm that in fact a surveyor was out for six hundred and eighty three DOPACS units which is about ten days and that had spread all through May, June and July. Erm there was no start date for him and no finish date for him really er considered what the resource. Yeah. That's right. This takes no account of priorities, other works within the section, whether in fact this doesn't need doing until nin early ninety four. Er and so what John's done, he's suggested that in fact if it comes for March ninety four, that he spread the work out till nineteen ninety four which may be the sensible attitude cos people can make those decisions of the schemes to involved. If you do the work early somebody changes their mind as soon as you've finished. But er it would have to be a client discussion, about when he actually wanted the contract completing. But spreading the work out though actually extended the administration costs and not giving start and finish times that were fairly tight, so the people doing the work allowed them to make their own judgments on when it was going to be done. And that things would tend to drag on to the last minute and then they would start and then it would it go forward. And the work would then be completed to approximately the same timescale that we, that we deadlined on the. Er we thought, we thought that the scheme was, the, the sheet was filled in properly er a apart possibly from the, the er initials as we suggested, putting people down on the quality plan, which was obviously down to timescales. Er we thought we could work to it and we thought we had a different rule for timekeeping er and we didn't check the calculations. [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Well it seems to me that there was obviously enough information in that plan for you to be able to understand very very clearly what, what was wanted and what was going to be done. And I think that's really quite important. And th that's quite encouraging [speaker002:] Mm. [Mike:] that, that the group you were assessing managed to do that. We've got one, one last group. Have you any comments on that David? Erm Dennis? Before we go on to group four? [Dennis:] Erm No. [Mike:] Right. Group four, have you got all your people still here? Or have they [speaker002:] Yeah. [Mike:] escaped? [speaker002:] Yeah. No actually i working out punch-line for the joke. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Er cos that's why we're so expensive when you lose a few engineers in transit. Erm [Mike:] Literally in transit. [speaker002:] In transit. Yeah. Er commenting on group three's erm plan. Really I think at the end of the day it's very similar to, to ours, although the price difference is a bit different. Erm the remit er the client details and the remit's pretty detailed, I think it spells out what should be done. I think the only comment I would have on there is we spelt out specifically what we thought the project manager should be responsible for in the actual remit stages itself. Although Norman's actually ticked that the project manager was gonna be responsible for certain things I think it's one of these things that need to be brought out. Fairly importantly that we're gonna do this, but you've gotta do this. I think I see one problem with, we've put site investigation and flagged the price I think, whereas if we'd said that we require site investigation work to be undertaken by the project manager, we've really got to decide the level of site investigations, so that in the first instance we've gotta approach the soil mechanics and determine from them what, what we need from them. So the, really the foreman's gotta get that price. It's a matter of then where you put that price, either in our fee or invoice directly to the, to the client. But again obviously that doesn't apply but that's what has gotta be done. Again we got into time constraints, there was one or two things obviously that weren't filled in, but I think that's only been nitpicking I think at the time. Obviously has ticked off erm quite a lot of work that the project manager is gonna be responsible for on here, really. Here on the responsibility reference statement. Er it might very well be that the project manager may think, well my God, am I gonna do more work than the engineers that are working with you. So that the split may well have been that er he was gonna to do a lot more work than perhaps the er civil engineering design group. So perhaps a lot of the times but I would have maybe suggested that, that we could have done and presented that as part of the package. So again perhaps tied in our prices, it might be that we've assumed that we'd do more, perhaps than the other groups. So overall. Number of meetings, although we hadn't ticked the box, we had flagged up exact same number as ten, ten sets of meetings, erm six liaison and four technical. Erm milestones, yeah, pretty similar I think really. They were all durations. As a sort of bridge person I was quite interested to find out how different the works, the, the, the Permanent Way office does the structural things and er obviously all the clients have feared that this resources would be thrown perhaps. Maybe three lads to the drawings and maybe two lads to do the calculations, whereas it would be slightly in the bridge office or the works office because of the present resource availability, it tends to be that you only have a smaller number of people doing, doing those tasks. But again, obviously if the resources are there why not use them. Yeah, I think obviously, Norman has put down that he's gonna produce quite a lot of cross-section, I think that's a valid point I think we had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the ground was gonna be relatively level. But er they might have been assumptions that we shouldn't have made. Erm I think looking through the actual resource sheet itself, I think we had more project administration time down, and certainly that we had more technical work supervision and you put more of an emphasis on, of actually looking after the lads. There is only, well there are sixteen hours that er [cough] that Norman's put down for the total technical work supervision on the job, I would have thought that perhaps that might be quite tight, er you know bearing in mind that it's maybe a job that requires a... [tape change] [Dennis:] to the remit. Erm I, I'd initially put a a great big cross through all of that. I know absolutely nothing about P Way but then as Norman was speaking, I realized that perhaps I could put a few ticks in. And it might be that what we've got to do is t is to change that to perhaps include P Way. I think we need a bit more discussion on this. Erm the key dates have to be here as well as on the D Five, cos this forms part of the appointment contract to the client. We're saying to him, we will supply this service on a, by a particular date. He wishes to know that and we will record our progress against it. Erm clearly state any exclusions erm er the moving, diverting the footpath for example. Clearly state that, we're assuming that you are going to divide er divert the footpath, we're not going to to. I think what you have to remember is that these three sheets er are in fact, well w what we have to remember is that the business manager is an internal client, and that these three sheets are something to him, or to her, to type to form the appointment contract, so therefore let's get it right. Erm and you were saying earlier Mike, that this in effect is an, an internal contract and you have a nice little story about some initials behind someone's desk, which you'd [Mike:] Mm. [Dennis:] perhaps like to repeat. [Mike:] Is it repeatable in front of a, a microphone? [Dennis:] Well [LAUGHTER] sorry. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] []. Later. [Mike:] Yeah. Effectively what we've got here is the mechanism whereby the client requirements are sent to the people who are actually going to do the job on the drawing board. It's an internal type of contract. If there are any problems then we should be able to say to ourselves, well let's go and have look at the project quality plan, what's that tell us? And if we've got the project quality plan right there shouldn't be any problems or queries and it did remind me of this Australian er project manager, who I've mentioned to one or two other people over lunch, who used to sit in a great, a great office, running multimillion pounds' project and when people came in to complain to him, he used to refer them to the plaque on the wall which said R T F C. Read the fucking contract. Effectively, what we've got here is a similar internal message. And so it's very important to get this completed really well tt because then there shouldn't be too many queries later on. So that will do, Dennis. [Dennis:] . Erm just a couple of points here,th this form is one of positive identification, that there is no need to do anything with the boxes that you're not going to touch. Erm in other words someone is responsible for drawings therefore you would, you'd put the initials in there. Erm we're not gonna get involved with mine-workings, for example, nothing appears there. Positive identification. Erm I think for some reasons Trudy we so a rogue in there, bridge assessment records, I applies to P Way. Erm [speaker002:] Erm It may do. It may do. I mean steps and things like that. [Dennis:] It might do? Ah sorry. Well I stand corrected. [speaker002:] project. [Dennis:] I told you I know nothing about er P Way. Erm category of checking, one of those b the idea would be to ring either the double nought or the nought. Erm self-checking, as we mentioned before, self-checking i is permiss permissible. Er if you've got a competent p person that you trust preparing the estimate, they can check it themselves. It doesn't have to be checked by someone else, it doesn't have to be an independent check, unless the regulations demand it. Which I don't think in estimating they do. Er certainly the works office, there's no reason why you shouldn't draw, do a drawing and check the drawing yourselves. It's quite permissible provided you trust the person and that person the necessary skills. Weekly reports and things we've, we've mentioned before. Erm the purpose of the two columns, and I think we've missed this out, is, is that we should be identifying how many w w whether we're using er going to produce drawings by hand or by CAD. Erm and I could thi think of no other er quality measures necessary to meet the er quality objectives apart from bringing your sandwiches. I suggest you might bring a sandwich along Paul. The point I want to get across here is that this a P Way form, it is your form, not my form, not the Q A form, it's the P Way form for you to use and to change to the way that you want it to change. Erm I don't, and similarly with that form, forget the details, that again is a P Way form for you, it's your form, you change it. I'm not interested. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] This one again, that is a P Way form, erm the only person who's interested in that is Trevor and his organization, so if you want that changing, agree it with Trevor. And that really is all I need to say unless you've got any questions?... [Mike:] I think er Granville can field er any questions when he does his spot after coffee then, Dennis. [Dennis:] I thought he might go, he might do it now and we go for coffee. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear. [Mike:] Okay, let's have a break er if you can come back reasonably quickly er we can make up a few seconds. [speaker002:] ... [tape stops and starts] do it quietly. [Granville:] Right. You've In case anybody doesn't know me, I think I've had dealings with most people here, but my name's Granville. And I'm a project engineer within the works design group. Hopefully this morning you've now been introduced to the concept of quality planning, as it's intended within the civil engineering design group. I trust the exercise you've just a carried out has at least given you an insight into the format and use of this document. But what are the advantages? As a project engineer, I've been using a similar document for about the last six months. Its format has changed over that time, quite a bit, because like any quality system, it's subject to constant review. And as Mike referred to this morning, there are ways and means, if there's items in here that need amending and improving, there are ways and means that you can do it. But throughout all that time the principles contained within the document have always cha remained the same. If we go back a few years, I don't know how many people remember before we had DOPACS, I remember when projects used to come into the group from on high, they used to filter through the organization, until they landed on somebody's desk who was actually supposed to carry out the work. At best he maybe had a letter from the client, that letter had gained copious notes as it filtered its way through the hierarchy, some helpful, some intelligible, unintelligible should I, should I say, and some contradictory. You may have then had a verbal exchange with your next in line, but bar that you were expected to get on with the work. And then we had that introduction of DOPACS, and all that changed. And I ask the question, or did it? True, projects can now come into the organization at any level. True, we have written remits. But by their very nature they are only a few lines on a piece of paper at the moment. The final recipient has still got to get on with the work based on this small amount of information, only now with DOPACS he has a time limit. And that time limit, or DOPACS units, in the past has always been a wee bit nebulous. It's been based on jobs we've done for clients in the past, based on pla past experience. We've never in the past looked in detail at the total work content to work out these time units, after all in the past, we've known what the client wants, we've been giving him it for years. But now, as you're probably all aware, this has changed. The railway is now business and client orientated, the work content that we go into, is decided by their requirements and not what we would like to give them. You've now all seen a project quality plan, but I'd just like to go through a few of the headings just to advise you where I think the benefits lie. We start off with the front cover sheet. This categorizes the stage of the work, feasibility, scheme, design. Which immediately identifies the scope of the work required. It also sets down the project team, encompasses all the functions involved within that scheme, thus ensuring that early contact is made between all individuals. The lead project engineer is named, who is then responsible for the day to day running of the project. But the project coordinator retains an overview at review meetings. Inside the front cover are the project details, which is a form D One we've all seen and used before. It sets out the agreed remit, including any constraints. This remit is agreed with the client, by the project coordinator, who can be anyone within the organization but would normally be an experienced engineer. The project quality plan is then compiled between the project coordinator and the lead project engineer, based on this agreed remit. Also included under this heading are all the client details which enable an appointment contract to be prepared and forwarded. Now come some of the sections which you may not be so familiar with. We have the responsibility statement. This identifies exactly those areas of the project that the C E D G will be responsible for, within the terms of the appointment contract. Once agreed with the client it ensures that all relevant responsibilities are covered by either the C E D G, the project manager or the client. A copy of this statement is forwarded to the client and therefore no ambiguity exists. In the works one the main bulk of the project quality plan is the process check list. I note in the P Way it's only a page but the principles are still the same. This has proved the most useful as far I've been concerned and the works I've done in the works office. Cos it comprises a checklist encompassing the major requirements necessary to complete and the project and it helps to identify the processes involved, and the stage to which are to be taken, for the s for the successful completion of the project. Thus ensuring all items of work are taken into account, and none are overlooked or forgotten. It indicates the persons who are to carry out those aspects of the work, thereby defining person responsibilities. It also identifies the management procedures that should be followed to correctly complete the project in line with office requirements. The final item of the process checklist includes the necessary reports required to keep our clients informed of the progress, both physical and financial, of the scheme we're undertaking. So, therefore, right from the outset the project en the lead project engineer knows which ro reports are required, how many and when they are to be provided. Next we have the project resource sheet. This has been in use in the works office for some time, it was, it used to be called an aide-memoire. This summarizes the main processes and resources required to carry out that, this particular item of work. Having defined the processes in detail under the checklist, it now becomes much easier to allocate the necessary resources, time units, DOPACS units or whatever you like to call them, to successfully complete the project. The project resource sheet enables these units to be identified for each individual's activity within the project, thus ensuring a realistic fee-bid. The final page is the project plan, the D Five, of which I'm sure we're all familiar. The project resource sheet is so designed that once you've allocated the resources, it is now relatively easy to transfer those res resources over to the project plan. All that is contained within the project quality plan enables the project plan to be completed correctly and accurately. We all know it's extremely important that that project plan is as accurate as possible. Because once costed it represents the estimated fee for the group's involvement in a project, either in the form of an appointment contract for the client to sign. or as a fee-bid. It defines the project timescales and priority to enable individual workloads within the group to be planned through DOPACS, and it also important n needed-by dates, the milestones, within the project, which again through DOPACS enables checks on the physical and financial progress to be carried out at any time. To summarize. I believe that project quality plans are essential within our group to ensure we provide our clients with a cost-effective quality service. It also allows a consistency of standards and policy from all the functions within the group to our clients. By the use of project quality plans, we're ensuring that the following important criteria are fully considered and answered. The first criteria is, what? A clear and precise remit is obtained and documented. When? Needed-by dates, both within and on completion of projects, are again clearly identified. How? The depth and scope of work content is defined, allowing resource requirements to be accurately predicted. Who? Individual responsibilities at all levels are defined within this plan. And most important of all, how much? Ensures a realistic fee-bid based on all of the above. [speaker002:] [cough] [Granville:] And if we can get all of those five right it helps all of us within the group to hopefully get it right first time. And if we get it right first time, we'll have a satisfied client who will hopefully return to us for more work. And that is the situation we're in, that's the name of the game, is to satisfy our clients and that is all project quality planning. Er I know Mike now goes off at slightly different subjects, so I would suggest if there are any questions, not only on what I've just said, but really what you've done this morning, the exercise, either myself, Dennis, or Mike, or Trevor could answer any questions?... Stunned silence. [Dennis:] Silence. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Straight between the eyes. [speaker002:] I think the problem with a clear remit I can't really come to terms with that, precisely, competitive. How do you know your competitors clear remit? Or do we tend to build things in because we've already done that type of job and we know the job and things in subconsciously where? is to discuss wi with the client what it is that he what he said, what. He'll just say, well yes, yes. [Dennis:] I would hope that in a competitive sense [speaker002:] recognize the implications. [Dennis:] I would hope that in a competitive situation i it is happening now un under a non-competitive situation, er the clients are giving us written remits erm and I think we'll be going further down the path. [speaker002:] of the client to lead you on to perhaps you could introduce more elements into your actual remit diverted an and [Dennis:] I accept. Yes. [Trevor:] Th the remit though that, that we're actually putting down on the appointment contract, is actually the result of the negotiations between the project coordinator and the client. I in the past th Granville mentioned these letters that used to work their way down from on high which might have just been a,a bit of a twinkle in somebody's eye with no money at all to spend on physical work but even so it was given the same status within the R C E's organization of five or ten years ago a a as an investment item was, it was almost authorized. A and we tended to not bother going back to the client, but giving what we thought he needed, that was the culture of the regional civil engineer, [speaker002:] Mm. [Trevor:] if Brian didn't think we needed it then it didn't even get a lookout let alone er er resources allocated to it. Nowadays it's different, when a client comes to us and says, I need something here. If he doesn't know what he needs, that's great because we can help him a a and he's not gonna go somewhere else where he isn't going to get that help. But at the end of the discussions between the project coordinator and the client, when you have actually helped him and led along, you could have this, or you could have that, or perhaps we could just take it to this stage, cost some options out and give you a recommendation. Whichever you go, write down your interpretation of what you think you have agreed with the client and sign it and send it to him. If he signs it that indicates that he has accepted what you've jointly agreed, and then you've got something, a milestone, something to go back and measure yourselves against and to justify what you've done against erm the fees that, that you're invoicing the client for, if the client at s at some stage decides perhaps that's not really what he wanted after all. Er in a competitive situation, the Rickmansworth tender w w w was a,a an example of that, we actually had a contract document which is about as thick and complicated as one of the contract documents that we would put out for civil engineering physical work to er er a contractor. And we actually had to comply with certain clauses a a and provide method statements and [speaker002:] It's got a hundred and fifty sheets in it. So it was written as a document. [Trevor:] So if we're going into to this [speaker002:] And what did the competitor have? [Trevor:] If we go into this fixed fee competitive scenario, then we will insist that we are actually comparing apples with apples and not apples with pears,whe when the client looks at our fee and he looks at an external consultant's or another railway internal consultant's fee [speaker002:] Yeah. I think that's the way we see it going and that's the way we hope it's going [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker002:] but just at the moment in P Way we feel that it isn't possibly going that way [Trevor:] No. [speaker002:] and yet a a a a and with [Trevor:] And it [speaker002:] one or two competitive tenders that have. That's all we're worried about. [Trevor:] A a [speaker002:] are writing the remit and then the remits aren't going out to the other competitors. [Trevor:] Well if that's the case Bob, it's really the fault lies with our client not with us. Our client should be presenting us with a sheaf of paper with pink ribbon round it, saying, we would like a tender on that, fixed fee, by two weeks on Tuesday, or whatever. A a and by the way, you are in competition with a number of other organizations, both internal and external. They should be doing that work, if they're asking us to design a remit, price it and then they're using that remit to get prices from other people, er I would suggest that, that we perhaps ought to have words with our clients on that basis a and say we're quite happy to tender in competition but erm i you ought to give it a little bit of thought before you actually put the thing. [Mike:] . Erm I think it might be helpful if I make a comment on this business of er tenders from the other side of the fence actually, Bob. When I worked er for in the mid eighties, we had been through a period where we'd always taken the cheapest tender. Er for North Sea platform design and construction activities. We very quickly realized that the cheapest tender wasn't always the cheapest in the medium or long term,t to, but we weren't very quick to realize how to put [LAUGHTER] that right []. Because we had a tender board operation which said you take the cheapest tender. Eventually through reasonably correct bid evaluation, we began to learn how to cost out inferior bids, when we had a very very low bid in we could see that certain things had been skimped, certain things might even have been missed out completely, and we then began to cost the effect of that on the organization. But it did take some time. Now, I suspect that your industry, shall I put that in inverted commas, Bob? Has got to go through this learning curve to some degree. But I do see the project quality plan being extremely valuable because you will be feeding back the front part of the quality plan to the client and explaining the extras that you're going to do, or the constraints within which you're working. Now you cannot force the client to take that into account and read and understand it, but I do believe that it will be possible for you, in writing to the client, to explain the advantages and the extras which you are incorporating within your er proposed scheme which you feel are absolutely fundamental to the correct working of the project. In other words, they're not, they're not extras er in, in the absolute sense, they are necessary for that particular scheme, but they may be things which less erm experienced consultants might omit. And so there's a tremendous onus upon your good selves, to highlight the experience if you like and expertise you have of spotting problems, and explaining how you will get around then within the given fee-bid. I, I think that's, that's the most sort of optimistic comment I can make Bob, but it is a potentially fraught issue. [speaker002:] I think, I think, yes. I think, I think all we're worried about is the transition period between Yeah. the, the in-house, friendly at atmosphere we've had up to now, er non-competitive, across to what we're gonna see in the future, in the future, which is competitive with a professional client giving a professional remit to a number of tenderers, which will be us. But in the meantime there is a very loose remit situation. And that's all we're worried about, this transition period, that we might lose clients within that. [Mike:] Put it like this, Bob, I don't think the project quality plan is going to hinder you. [speaker002:] Oh no. [Mike:] If anything, I would believe very strongly, that a more systematic approach to this, a checklist for checking specific items off, will in fact help you, [speaker002:] Yes. [Mike:] through this transition period, but there isn't a slick answer to your immediate problem. [speaker002:] Yes. Th th the more, the better remit we write, if you like, in reply in our contract and the more erm [Mike:] Explanation? [speaker002:] explanation and conditions we put on it, to say what we are and aren't going to do, the better. Erm it's just this transition period. [Trevor:] Th th there is one point on the same vein as that Bob,th the second sheet on the D One, where there's a suggestion that we tick off additional bits that we're gonna put into our contract, we are going to arrange possessions,we we're gonna do this that and the other. We've gotta be careful that in er using that sheet, we don't do it in such a way as to bully and turn off the customer by saying, by the way, you'd better make sure you've done this, this, this, this and this, cos I'm not doing it. You know,i i it is a very fine line between er how we talk to our customers, which is why I, I, I can't stress enough the need for the project coordinators to talk face to face with the customer first of all, and perhaps gently lead him down some of the items in this list that the project coordinator thinks the client might not have remembered. Er a a and then say, well we can take that on board for you if you like but it might be more efficient for you to do the possessions because the civil engineer Leeds, actually is part of your organization a a and it might be more appropriate for you to get those possessions in, for you to decide whether or not you want one big bang o o o of a week's possession or, or you want to do it i in four hour no-trains periods for the next three years. That type of putting back into a business context, is something which er we need to help the business come to terms with while they are growing in this new scheme of procuring work in a more formal and structured way. [Mike:] I would actually like to emphasize that the qu quality plan is originally intended to help the people who are going to have to do the job at the coal face. However, I believe that there are advantages in improved communications with the client. If you er use the front part of the plan correctly and complete it well. [whispering] Okay []. Any more questions? Granville you got off very lightly there. Okay? Right. Let's er let's move onto the downhill part of the er proceedings today. [speaker002:] [cough] Mm. [Mike:] You heard Dennis say, a number of times today, that a project quality plan format has been designed for the Permanent Way group, and that it's your format and you change it. Granville emphasized just a few minutes ago, anything to do with the quality system is not a Moses job. It's not tablets of stone which have been brought down from Mount Sinai forever to remain unalterable. It's a living system, it's designed to help you, if it's not supporting and helping you then it must be changed. I now want to talk about two or three of the mechanisms and techniques we hope to be able to use in implementing changes when things aren't necessarily to your liking. I will add a cautionary comment however, and say that you won't necessarily be able to change absolutely everything, at any time of the day or night, because there are some base requirements we have to address and we have to meet. Those base requirements are enshrined within I S O Nine Thousand and One, and if that says, thou shalt do X and Y and Z, then we have to do X and Y and Z. So there may be occasions when you feel that it would be nice to make er a change to er a system or procedure, and in actual fact it becomes really not possible because we would then be going against the dictates and requirements in I S O Nine Thousand and One. Having said those very harsh words however, there aren't very many hard and fast requirements in I S O Nine Thousand and One. It's called a quality system standard but in actual fact it's a code of practice. Its language is that of a code of practice. It says, for example, you need documented work instructions except where it's not necessary. So it's your choice as to how much or how little you write down. But what it's actually doing is prompting management to think. Shall we have a documented work instruction for this activity or not? But nevertheless it does contain one or two quite hard requirements which we have to meet if we're going to obtain and retain the certificate. So whilst you might think it's a nice idea to make a change to some procedure or work instruction or whatever you want to call it, there may be the odd occasion on which it's not actually possible to bring in a change because we're faced with still er meeting the requirements in the base er I S O Nine Thousand document. Now, how can we go about er introducing any changes to the system? Well we have some quality system procedures which were referred to earlier this morning and they are called nonconformance control, corrective action and internal audit. Now what are these erm strange words all about? I think that's perhaps something I ought to explain first and foremost. Nonconformance control. The I S O Nine Thousand document uses the term, nonconforming product, but the word product er is a very broad word, it's actually defined in I S O Nine Thousand as meaning product or service, and it can be anybody's product or service. It can be a product or service you've bought in, not necessarily a product or service that you are actually producing or generating yourselves. So what is this business? Nonconforming product control?...

[Peter:] any problems, any problems the council for er two years, there are and I think that she's actually provided a very significant contributions to the council. It is I think with great regret that we receive her resignation... er but understand it. So perhaps we can for the contribution that she's made in sh in a short time. [speaker002:] ... [Peter:] We have then the items listed.... Erm, the first one is the Nottingham Association of Local Councils. Remember that we, we sent er ten pounds to the area committee, which they've said, thank you very much indeed, erm for, and, and there's a meeting erm... next in June, which is their next meeting. Where the... er village care officer is going to attend, and I'll er attempt to get to that meeting.... Well, you know, probably be, the new chairman will attempt to go to that meeting I suppose, after the annual meeting.... We've had a letter from erm the Mayor's parlour,, saying that he's er going to visit... the parish on the first of May to attend the commemorative service. Participate.... We've also had a letter from Southwell Civic Society... about the church free car park. And I think it's worth s er reading out that the Civic Society have asked er Betty in Arundel to write to us in order to express their appreciation of the work that's been carried out in the church free car park. The new park planting etcetera really enhances the area, so that's nice to hear from the Civic Society, and they're also saying that er they're grateful for the newspaper collection, which their office is thinking has been put to good use. And say that their members save their newspapers too.... Some other news. We've had a letter er from Severn Trent Water. You'll reme you'll recall that [cough] Severn Trent... used to subcontract their sewerage maintenance to the District Council. They've... n now terminated that agreement, and now... erm sewerage problems should be directed to er Biffa Environmental Services, who are now doing a subcontract rather than the District Council. There's a local telephone number, which I've already had occasion to use, unsuccessfully as it happens, and, I think, Anne, you were also involved in that... significant problem, on er... on that there is a loc er no plumber. Anne? [Anne:] But I think John we should point out that it was, it was only unsuccessful because it turned out not to be a sewerage problem. It turned out to be... surface water drainage. And the... this Biffa company don't do anything to do with the surface drainage, surface water drainage, that is dealt with by the County Council Highways Authority, who don't... circulate an emergency telephone number, and this problem occurred over the bank holiday Easter weekend. But I think we should say that Biffa... er what do they call it? [Peter:] Environmental [Anne:] Environmental, turned out immediately that... we telephoned them to say there was a flood in on the, and they were... ex extremely fast and very efficient, and they came back later in the day when the Highways Authority still hadn't... erm responded to our calls. And, and were prepared... to do the work so long as they could get the say so from... erm the Highways Authority. Erm so [speaker002:] Who couldn't be contacted. [Pat:] May we have that telephone number? [Peter:] Yes, the telephone number is er for sewage problems, if you remember,. [Pat:] And how do you spell Biffa? [Peter:] [spelling] B I F F A []. [Pat:] Right. [Peter:] Peter? talk you know there was the Notts County Council on the erm gully... problems that we get in, is it possible to write to the County Council to ask them what sort of maintenance... programme they're going to give us now, as regards this cos I've not seen this wagon going round so frequently as it used to.... I mean you'd see it going round the town quite regularly emptying the gullies.... But y you very rarely see it now, and I should like to know when these gullies are being emptied, and what the programme is? Because we still keep getting ch the same charge for it, community charge, etcetera. And I believe it's a facility that's, you know, is now lacking in Southwell. Well I think we'll ask the clerk to, to, I think it's a good point, yes, indeed. [Steve:] C can we all st [Peter:] And that wouldn't have occurred that weekend on the Ropewalk if there'd have been a proper programme, of empty emptying gullies. Mhm. Well, yes, the gully actually was blocked completely in and [Steve:] We should have a visit by the head of the Notts County Council Highways, for the footpaths' scheme.... That was something you instigated. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Steve:] Erm, it's another item when we meet this gentleman, Mr can raise with him. [Peter:] should probably ask Mr to come to one of our P c Parish Council full meetings. [Steve:] Well we've asked him to meet us with regard to the footpaths, so we could use it for that at the same time, [Peter:] I think we're walking round, I think's probably more, more efficient than perhaps inviting him to a meeting. [Christine:] Well I can tell you now why are constantly [LAUGHTER] blocked up []. [Peter:] A any problems, if you could send them to Steve,the then we'll er... we'll er check those out, yes? [David:] Yeah, I'm a bit concerned because we've got a mixture of adopted and unadopted... sewers in Southwell, haven't we? And er I know when I had... experience in the past, last New Year, the District Council's come out on behalf of the residents. They've always come out, but they always do then check while they're there to see whether the property concerned is on the list of... private, adopted or unadopted and there can be a mixture. But they always do the job, and worry about the recharge... afterwards. Which of course is what residents concerned about. Now can we be assured that Biffa are in fact going to do that same service, not turn up and say, you're not allowed this, nothing to do with us. Because they are a private contractor now. And I think what we should get as a Parish Council, is an assurance from Biffa, that they, or from the District Council, from Severn Trent, really, if they are the people that contracted out the work, that a re any resident in Southwell who, who is afflicted by sewerage problems is going to get immediate and urgent attention.... Whether or not the sewer is adopted. Because if you've got your back garden flooded with foul water, you're not really concerned about anything else other than the d than getting the blockage cleared. [Peter:] I'm assuming that David's suggested that [speaker002:] [cough] [Peter:] people did call the number adopted or not, and I would have thought that was [David:] Well, they did do it, but they used to recharge residents for unadopted sewers. well, sorry to interrupt, but we had a man that was very knowledgeable, with, I think gardens, and he's a local man, er always turned up very quickly. Yeah. And I think that that degree of, that loss of local knowledge could be very serious. [speaker002:] Yes. [Peter:] Actually, [speaker002:] They're taking the same men on. [David:] that's [Peter:] found in... [David:] Thank you chairman, sorry to have laboured the point. [Peter:] I think that's a good point,w we will raise that with Biffa as well.... Er we also have one other item of correspondence recorded on the list, er which was addressed to The Lord Mayor of Southwell, England, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] and it got here. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Well done the post office. From Germany, containing some er nineteen forty late fi early fi early fifties photographs, from a er a doctor, erm in Germany. Without any correspondence, but just to, for our archives. So we are going to write back and say, thank you very much indeed, and I suggest she sends her one of the [speaker002:] Two up-to-date postcards, [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] no two of the maps, we got the maps, so we can send her a map. [speaker002:] Excellent idea. Mhm. Mhm. Aye, yeah.... [Peter:] Er can we move on then,? [speaker002:] No. [Peter:] No. Can we move then to item number seven, the financial statement of the payments? [Lynn:] Chairman, sorry. On, on correspondence, there was this letter which also appeared in the, that was sent to me, for notice to the Parish Council about the erm... parked cars along Westgate, and er Church Street, which... we wanted obviously [speaker002:] Oh yes. [Lynn:] sorry, I thought mine was a copy, but it's not. From, young, I think he must be about eleven, saying, I'm concerned about safety crossing the road at Westgate, because cars and lorries go very fast along there. Sometimes it's so busy I go across with some of my friends with the crossing lady at the village school, and then walk back down Nottingham Road towards the school. I'm also concerned about the safety of other er pedestrians, mothers with babies and young children, or older children and even teenagers. Please could you get some crossing lights, a zebra crossing, or some traffic lights put in. It would make us a lot safer and cars may not go as fast. [speaker002:] yes.... [Peter:] that's, that's er I know that Mrs has asked er youngsters at the Minster School to write in, and obviously this is one of the first of those. So that's good to hear, and we'll... we'll forward it on to, copies of that to the relevant organization. Lynn? [Pat:] Can I you had in? I know they've been writing them. Erm I'm not sure er perhaps that's just one of them, rather than [Peter:] It's obviously the, the, the pressure upon the County Council to get something done about the traffic. [Pat:] Do you think perhaps we ought to erm ask the school if they've got the letters ready yet, rather than [speaker002:] Mhm, yes. [Pat:] leave it too long [Steve:] I phoned Mrs on erm Wednesday this week er Monday this week, sorry, and er she's yet to phone me back. [Peter:] Thank you. I will put that on the side and just with the rest as you're going... Now I'll move on to the financial statements. Firstly, the financial statement which you received earlier, are thick documents, which Steve circulated. This is the document which will be going for audit, and er that's on the agenda a little bit later, erm, on the last financial year. Steve, can you talk [Steve:] Of course. [Peter:] us through that? [Steve:] [cough] You can [speaker002:] [cough] [Steve:] see from nineteen ninety two ninety three financial year, our income from the whole year was a hundred and twenty one thousand pounds.... Just look at the first page. Carried forward for this year, for this year is thirty eight thousand three hundred and fifteen pounds, our precept is sixty thousand pounds, and our expected income is fourteen K. So giving us a total income for the year of about a hundred and twelve thousand pounds. Our planned expenditure for this year er works out at ninety one thousand one hundred, and this includes the money for projects. So it gives us erm erm a possible carry forward to next financial year of twenty one thousand pounds. Erm the account balances, and it's ready to go to audit now, [speaker002:] [cough] [Steve:] erm and there are no outstanding transactions at this point.... [Peter:] Peter? [speaker002:] N n no comment, I think it's all... fairly self-explanatory.... [Peter:] So I Can I just enquire why er we had to state getting the fourteen thousand [Steve:] In total? [Peter:] Interest. [speaker002:] Where? [Peter:] Interest. [Steve:] Right, if you look at page number... [speaker002:] They're not numbered [Steve:] No, this is [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Steve:] on the income sheet which i penultimate penultimate sheet, [Peter:] Yeah. [Steve:] you receive, last year, income was twelve thousand five hundred and sixty one pounds, er next year it does go up slightly because we didn't receive any tennis club fees last year. six hundred pounds, the pitch fees about seven hundred pounds, bowls club pay us three hundred and fifty pounds, the tennis club for the two years, subscriptions will be twelve hundred pounds, the fair three hundred and fifty pound for two visits, erm one hundred and seventy five each visit, and the rugby club will pay us about three hundred pounds for the use of the pitch on... ground. Investments, two thousand five hundred.... I'm hoping to get investments of two thousand five hundred, obviously with interest rates coming down, it's er [speaker002:] Optimistic. [Steve:] The lease for Southwell City Football Club, forty five pounds, our waste paper income, about five hundred pounds in the calendar year, er V A T refund about three thousand pounds, and grants I've put down five thousand pound income for the year. I've actually put in for twenty thousand pounds' worth of grants at this point, however, let's see whether I'm fortunate to achieve that. Erm and finally,w we do get one or two smaller items of income from... er selling of the maps and erm... other items. That comes to fourteen thousand one hundred and fifty pounds.... [Peter:] ? [speaker002:] D does the football club's pitch fees not appear in this income? [Steve:] Yes it does, in the top, the first. [speaker002:] The pitch fees money. seven hundred pounds. [Peter:] The, the budget is the one that had been approved previously. What hasn't been approved is this full, audited for the full financial statement for last financial year. This is an end of year statement... if you look, er giving the erm the income of a hundred and twenty five thousand and ninety nine pounds, and the expenditure there on the on the back page, of eighty two thousand seven hundred and eighty three pounds. So it's that that we're approving tonight. Er full council, so that it can go to audit, and the arrangements explain later. Roger? [Anne:] I move that we... we approve it, and can I also er compliment the, the clerk on, I thought this an excellent document, I mean, I don't know it before or not, but it was well put together, very concise, and I could understand it myself. So I thought that that was pretty good. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] So erm, I would say,. Well done. [speaker002:] Hear, hear. [Peter:] Thank you very much indeed. Yes, is that approved then?... Agreed. Thank you.... We've also got the bills for payment... er on your list, there are a number of bills for payment, are there any... questions about those bills for payment? There are some verbal additions.... Which are? Yes. The first item, Severn Trent Water. We are asking for your approval for two bills, a thirty pounds sixty four, and a hundred and fifty three pounds twelve. That is the annual payment, and although we're seeking approval now for the whole payment, we will defer one of, half of those, both of those payments until the six months' interval, in order to gain the interest. So, although we are seeking approval now, for the whole total, we will in fact pay half in six months' time... er as is normal procedure on, on our water bills.... There are some additions, further additions please, because of er urgency. [speaker002:] Right, first there is from the District Council, and it's pond, er has anybody seen pond? [Anne:] Not recently. [speaker002:] It looks absolutely super. It's been erm. The bill for that is three hundred and eighty six pounds and fifty three pence. And this also includes a fence. I've changed the specifications of the fence, so my brother got the... but I put a smaller fence in there, not the huge three bar one which was er previously, it doesn't really change specifications.... Erm my [Christine:] more than it was? [speaker002:] No, it still goes, it is actually. But it's cos I changed it, they were going to put a large fence in [Christine:] Oh right. [speaker002:] and I thought, it'll be too much in that little area. Er, my claim for expenses for the park, which is on the agenda later come back to this, the cleaner's wages, one trip to Newark, bill development er for Mrs Susan, [LAUGHTER] phone calls made from home. The total claim tw is twenty nine pounds sixty. My accountant has advised me to stop claiming. There's been all sorts of problems with regard to paying cleaner's wages, because I become her employer, [cough] so I've been advised to stop that, hence it's on the agenda. So this will be my last claim ever.... Erm I've got four weighbridge tickets for waste from pond, twenty f twenty pounds and four pence. Erm it's just for rubbish I removed from pond.... Er a bill from for tracing and disconnecting an unused underground cable. Erm which we found on the recreation ground. The bill is for nineteen pounds and forty pence. Erm, we'll come again to this er item later in the, in the er.... Harry and son, decorator. Paint and sign work carried out to toilets on the recreation grounds. Erm, if you've actually been down there, there are now smart plastic signs telling people what the building is, and... giving all the details it looks very nice. [David:] It's a lot, but [speaker002:] it's been well decorated, it looks a, a bit more like a public toilet now,.... And finally a bill for the centre of fourteen pounds fourteen pence, which are just items that Don draws, er a mousetrap, er a bin, etcetera. [LAUGHTER] It's But there are then two sets of bills for paying, there's the ones we've got written, and those verbal... [Peter:] Any q all in agreement? [speaker002:] Mhm.... [Peter:] Move on then to item number eight. Er there was a Notts County Council liaison conference which I think Anne and Christine went to. I'm not sure. [Anne:] We did? Yes we did. We did. [Peter:] Have you got er anything to say for it? [Anne:] Erm yes, very briefly. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] You'll be pleased to hear. Erm on the twenty [speaker002:] [cough] [Anne:] ninth of March, Anne and myself went to a meeting of the County Council, organized... well, to liaise with parish councils. And there were two main items on the agenda. Erm one was erm an account of er care in the community, and erm the implications for Nottingham, and how it was going to be, and they were planning to implement it erm which was of general interest. Er a specific on only thing that might have been I think was really, erm the erm the concern that some people expect erm are for rural areas, whether there was going t there were going to be con whether things were going to be spread thinner on the ground in rural areas, particularly sort of transport costs, and of course erm there's one, but nevertheless, the concern that that would be underlying that and the... erm... the erm the the rural community... [speaker002:] The council? ... [Anne:] erm and then the, the, the second import erm major action was about erm local government, and I think that's really where the point which we, we've reached a take-home message that we want to erm bring to this council. Two things. One that erm the erm in any kind of structure, it was felt very er strongly that parishes should be represented in, and that they should listen to er perhaps have a much more erm important role than they have now, in a unitary or erm an all-purpose authority. And the County presented erm a, a range of options. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Anne:] I have to say, relatively er in an erm unbiased as unbiased as they could be. Er from the extreme option of having a single unitary c erm council, for the whole of the county, erm to on the other hand having erm eight unitary councils based on the existing, er and it's in the document I think the clerk's got and you've probably got. But that, that was the er th erm sorry I'm interrupting myself. Based on the eight erm present District Councils. So and then all erm possibilities between, between those two. And they presented the cost of them, the immediate cost of implementing them, the ongoing cost or, or any saving that there might be because erm and erm left, left that for er for comment. And I think the erm the clerk's got, you've got this document haven't you? [Steve:] Yeah. [Anne:] Erm have, I don't think that the that the councillors have it. But it's quite an interesting one to, to look at. Erm, and it gives you part of the range of their proposals. So I, I should think it's erm it is worth councillors having, having a look at what, what is proposed. Erm, and then the other important message was that the erm the coun the commissioners w were looking at er erm all the councils in the, in the country, in England, during the next five years. And coming to Nottingham on beginning, on June the twenty first. And it's most important that we the Parish Council get in our erm send our views to the, the commissioners. They're only coming for eleven weeks, and that of course starting in June, take some holidays, and [speaker002:] [cough] [Anne:] erm there's so it's quite important that we should erm make our best strong erm representation to... of our views erm of how we see, erm our message... of the main organization, and I think that was erm [speaker002:] Just on that last point, it was suggested that we ought to be writing now, to these commissioners, saying that we as a parish council wanted to make comments to them when they were er in Nottinghamshire. So and, and I think maybe it's a good idea that we write and say that we would like to be given an opportunity to speak to them. Yes. [Peter:] It is [speaker002:] Yes. [Peter:] Because if you remember we wrote to the Department of Environment putting our views forward, when the commission was just about to get. [Anne:] Right. [Peter:] And I think it would be a good time now to, to point out to the to s to er to say that we'd like to have our views heard at that time. [Anne:] To me they're not. Er alder people have about that time, it's important that and I think it is. Erm... th there were some complaints about er, this is first liaison meeting that there'd been in the [LAUGHTER] county, and you know they were obviously [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] out there listening []. Er and that did underline er we feel at the moment that we're not being listened to by the, how important it would be, it is, erm if there's to be any kind of inter village, [Peter:] Any other point on the questions? [David:] The problem, Mr Chairman, is that after they've got them into the authority, they'll forget all about us again.... [Peter:] Yes, I [Anne:] I think they have to, this is why we have to get in at the beginning, and be, be part of the structure. Er and Pat's actually... being listened to's too weak, I think parish councils should be part of the structure. I think that's what we should, we should ask for. Local monitors things are different in, in, in different as in the smaller er region of... [David:] Can I just ask Mr Chairman I, I mean the battle seems to be between the council and the District Councils, is there any danger that the outcome would be the abolition of parish councils? [Peter:] No, in the, in the erm... the Department of the Environment, they are actually talking about unitary authorities. Now, the question for parishes would th they wouldn't be abolished, the, the question is, how much additional powers and responsibilities would be devolved to the parishes, and that's the question. There's no question, there's no er discussion of the abolition of the parish councils at all. I it is to what extent parishes will have additional powers and responsibilities, and er I think we'll get onto this one, item number seventeen on our agenda.... John? of putting that item next agenda chairman, to consider this matter, who's going to represent this parish council, er as a member?... [speaker002:] We made mention that we've already submitted something in writing. Has it gone to specifically to the address of the commissioners? If it hasn't, is it worth our er now sending it to them, because if they don't come here, at least we've then submitted something in writing. And I also wondered whether there is a case, I don't know to what extent the County Council is listening themselves, that whether the case for also submitting our views to the County Council. [Peter:] Erm if we put it on the agenda, perhaps we could circ we'll, we'll recirculate the brief submission that we made, which was about a side of A four if you recall, to the er to the Department of the Environment. It probably sums up the case and we can discuss it and perhaps add to it at that time. Yeah, thank you it was a good idea. David? [David:] Yeah, we were also er notified of a, a liaison meeting called by the District Council. Erm the has gone, in the past, er I just wondered whether any of us were able to attend that, and if so what the outcome of that was. [Peter:] I think if you recall we had about er three days' notice of that didn't we? I certainly had very little notice of that. [speaker002:] Mm. I'm certainly going to one this next [David:] No, this, this was late April, it was called by erm Mr, wasn't it? And the er [Pat:] ? That's right. [Peter:] But it was also very [Anne:] Can I just say that I, I went to the meeting to do with local planning at Hall [David:] That's the one. [Anne:] to represent, to represent, this was for voluntary services. on Tuesday morning, and I went to see the secretary on. But in fact there was very little apart from discussion at the end, that was actually relevant to voluntary services, it was about local government reorganization which was very interesting, for me as a parish [LAUGHTER] councillor []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] So erm that was quite informative, actually. [Peter:] I think that's [Anne:] That was Mr. [Peter:] I think that's the one danger of all of this, is that both the County Council's and the District Council's aim perhaps or now are beginning to listen to the parish councils, but also, just really get an eye off the ball, cos they're looking for the increased responsibilities for their own purposes, and I think that's one serious danger that we c... have to face, as a local community. But hope it doesn't happen. [David:] I think what you say is quite true Chairman, but I still... I think the bottom line to it is, at the end of the day, to do away with a strategic authority, such as the County Council, in my opinion, if you look at what's happened in the metropolitan areas, er in the country, Tyneside, Manchester, the West Midlands, areas like that, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, and er London itself, the er the doing away with a strategic authority. It might save money, but in terms of the environmental impact it is quite disastrous, and I think that it's only now that the real problems in London for example are coming home to roost, er and I would ask that point to be borne in mind by whoever we decide should make representations to the commissioners. [speaker002:] Right thank you. [Peter:] We'll put this on the agenda for the next meeting. Thank you,. That was [speaker002:] [cough] [Peter:] interesting.... Can we move on then to item number nine, er there's a slight alt er a slight erm change to the agenda here,i this should read erm, replacement nomination for the Police Area Liaison Committee. Erm, Stuart... erm sat on the Police Liaison Committee. He wasn't an official nominee of this parish council, but he er was a person who attended the meetings and, and in Stuart's, with Stuart's resignation from this, because he found it difficult to get to, because of commitments, erm... it's suggested that the parish council might be able to identify one of its number in order to be able to at least continue some erm represent private representation on the... Liaison Committee.... Anybody [Lynn:] Is it John can you give us any er a little idea what the Police Complaints Authority? [Peter:] No, it's not the Police Complaints Authority. It's the Police Area Liaison. [speaker002:] Area Liaison. [Lynn:] Liaison? Ah, I'm sorry, I, I mixed I got slight [Peter:] It's the Police Area Liaison Committee, that I think meets every three months. Er in the Southwell... area, erm er [Christine:] This is the meeting that, that, to which people are invited to from all over [speaker002:] Yeah. [Christine:] the area, in which you stand up and make points that, that might be of interest to the police. [Peter:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yes. Yeah. [Christine:] I've been to one [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Is there anyone who's prepared to represent Southwell?... It doesn't have to be someone from this parish council, maybe other people are interested, or prepared to attend. It's actually a member of the public from Southwell, that [David:] I think that there's a is afternoons. [Peter:] It is. [David:] Which makes it when everyone's working. [Anne:] Yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Er Stuart, Stuart did phone me some months ago on this issue, to say he was having increasing difficulty getting to the meetings, and he asked me if er I would take it on, and I said, I would if, you know, if he were pushed. Pushed. [speaker002:] Yeah. [David:] Er and I believe the meetings take place in Newark, which is not too bad for me to... to get to er so I think [speaker002:] There we are then. [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] a volunteer. [David:] I can't guarantee making every meetings. [Pat:] No. [Peter:] I, I suggest that we erm propose David as our, as a Southwell representative. , I believe. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] If I don't turn up one night, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] don't, don't get apprehensive, [Peter:] I think Mr Chairman there is a feeling of erm well there's a feeling that these meetings would be far more positive now, with the change in the hierarchy of the police in [speaker002:] [cough]... [Peter:] Can I then move on to item number ten, the Southwell market refurbishment. Anne, you might have something to say on this? [Anne:] Erm chairman, the erm District Council officer who's been erm... delegated to draw up the scheme for... for the parish coun for, for the town did meet erm here, one morning some weeks ago, with myself and Steve, the clerk, and showed us some er a sketch of what was being proposed. Now, has he not left it with the Parish Council? He hasn't. I thought that was very useful. Erm what is now being proposed is a somewhat less regimented plan than we had before, if you remember there were lines of trees before in a very grid-like pattern across the marketplace. There is still the, the main focus of the scheme is still repaving the surface and tree planting. The tree planting now en envisages erm I think it's four or five trees across the frontage onto King, King Street, so including the one that exists, four more new ones. Very big trees it, it's suggested should be planted along there, so that they make an immediate impact. And then coming down from a point on King Street just to the left of the existing tree, if you can imagine that, and coming back across the marketplace [speaker002:] [cough] [Anne:] where the dropped kerb is, that takes you on to the private road. [speaker002:] Going to say [Anne:] A sort of little ar a pathway should be cleared there of natural York paving stones, so that you bisect the marketplace, but not immediately in the middle. It's more or less a third of the marketplace will then be to the right. Near the launderette and then the rest is. And then this York paving stone theme would be also... in a strip all the way round the perimeter of the existing marketplace, and so that you have two areas of, of natural York paving stone, high quality paving. The rest of the market area would be paved in something less expensive, but still something that looked very nice, but it's more manmade. I, I, I think he described them as light granite, but, but actually of a manmade material, which is being used at the moment in Nottingham on a something called a heritage walk which takes you up to the lace market in Nottingham. If anybody knows that area, they'll know what he's talking about. Erm and then on... an area of the, the main York paving stone pathway that bisects the thing, there would be a sort of circular... erm paving theme... motif, in the middle of this path. And in the middle of that, they thought that perhaps an ornamental lighting column with sort of, with lights coming out from the top of it just to make it a bit more fancy. And then there would be more trees pl Oh yes, and on either side of this, this pathway, there would also be an avenue of trees. So that was the main tree planting, this avenue of trees down on either side of this little path. I'm sorry that we haven't got the sketch to show you. It's really difficult. Are, are you following? And then there would be a few more trees around the, the back area if you like of the erm er marketplace. It was also proposed that the piece of roadway that comes from Road, in front of the community centre for 's Court, which at the moment is lower than the marketplace, the marketplace is raised, and th the road is lower. It sh it's proposed the road should be raised on a level with the marketplace, and possibly also paved with this, this granite type paving, so that the pedestrianization idea would continue right the way across to the 's Court community centre. Not so that it would stop cars getting across into the car park, but it would nevertheless give the impression. So it would slow traffic down basically it would have to rise up onto this, this path.... Erm... then there would be the idea of seating into this little er ornamental circular paved area, and seating... at different parts around the edges. Bollards as we've asked for across the frontage as well, and the back. Erm and that was about it. And it was suggested that this scheme should be presented to us, I thought one of their representatives was supposed to be coming here tonight to present it to us, obviously not been possible. They've also asked that I should put a drawing of this scheme which they have sent to me in the May edition of the Bramley, with an article from them, explaining it, asking for comments from the public, and this will be their public consultation exercise. They'd also like comments from this Parish Council, and it was odd that they haven't given us a sketch to look at. But really that was er the purpose of the meeting, where they presented it you know... in that form. And [David:] Chairman, er has any money been put aside by? [Anne:] Sorry, they did tell us that, that the whole costing of the scheme was going to be ninety thousand pounds, it was going to cost ninety thousand, just to do what we've, yes, what I've just described to you. Very very expensive, apparently to do paving and to do some mature semi-mature tree planting. The District Council has already set aside twenty thousand, [Steve:] I think it was twenty one thousand. [Anne:] twenty one thousand pounds, [speaker002:] Is that in one year, or over various years? [Anne:] No, it's been, it's been over a period of... two or three years? [Steve:] Seven thousand pound a year. [Anne:] Seven po thousand pounds a year, that's right, over three years, a really feeble contribution by comparison... to the Parish Council, which has also put aside over five thousand. But there is in total at the moment twenty five thousand pounds available. [Steve:] Twenty six thousand [Anne:] Twenty six thousand pounds available. And it was suggested by the er two officers that were present, that that could, that money that's already there, could in fact get a third of the scheme done, the third which was the bisecting little path, the main trees across the front, and the bit of the paving that takes you over to the North Road.... The rest would have to be done in phases. They thought they could do this first third this year, during the summer, over the summer months, if there was general agreement for the scheme. They would move the market [LAUGHTER] stalls of course. [Peter:] That'd be the bollards and the, the er set, the York stone sets which continue the line of of Road basically, from the entrance to 's Court straight across towards erm towards the erm greengrocers. It continues that line. And the part which sides the launderette. Peter? Thank you chairman. Well... I won't give an opinion whether I agree with the scheme or not, because I would like to see some of the drawings first before I gave a, you know, of an opinion of it, like you know everybody else around this table. But what concerns me greatly again, is we seem to be doing it or the District Council in bits and bobs. Now the District Council have taken a lot of money off this town, over the market stalls... now, for a number of years, and I believe if they're going to do a scheme like this which has been going on now for over eight years, it should be done all in one go. I don't think you can do a third one year and then try and raise some more money over the next few years and do another third. I would like to see the scheme be taken on, and done properly. And d let's have a proper job in the town for a change.... Lynn. [Lynn:] Can I ask if the sum is ninety thousand? [Anne:] Nine O. [Lynn:] When they, when they came in the summer and they said erm they, they planned and they said approximately how much, what were those figures? They weren't anything like that were they? [David:] Well they weren't York stone then were they? [Anne:] I don't think they quoted a figure, I think [Peter:] I, I think actually we do need to see the drawings. And I'm disappointed that the District Council officers nei ei any of the three come, I understand one's ill, but I mean it seems a bit disappointing cos I did actually [Anne:] September last year they came, September last year they came with the display [Peter:] I think perhaps we'll ask them to come to our next meeting, or the meeting after that.... Since our meeting in May is the annual meeting, we're... pushed for time there. But, I mean as soon as we can g get them to come along, and actually ask them to [speaker002:] To a planning meeting? [Peter:] To, to a planning meeting. To a planning meeting. Yes. Yeah. Pat?... [Pat:] Erm I, I'd like to see what Peter would like to see actually, I think we ought to see the whole thing done... in one fell swoop. Can't see it happening, but it would be better. But just a minor point, erm if we're going to settle for one third the job... initially, is that going to improve the bollards to the front and rear? Because obviously it's, they are going to some of the paving, we don't wanting it running up a small onto the next lot. It is? [Peter:] It would include the bollards, but not the paving up the side of Road. [Pat:] No, [Peter:] Two of the bollards o on both the street end and road [Pat:] So it came out to be impossible to d to drive on paving, that. Because obviously they'll, they'll be able to get their equipment when they finish the job. [Anne:] Mhm. Mhm.... [Pat:] One [Peter:] Well [Pat:] would assume. [Peter:] Yes, but, the... the main part of this as I understand the drawing, you'll have to ask Mr when he comes, but the main part of, of the square, which wouldn't be the third which is done in the first phase according to the phase that they're currently proposing. It wouldn't be York stone set anyway. This would be this concrete, concrete type of erm small, small brick. So about er erm two hundred by three hundred mil. [Pat:] It wouldn't be very large, but anything large or anything on a large square well if they're working on it, once they put their bollards up. [Peter:] Well some some of them will be removable, because they remove them whilst they do the second phase.... I it strikes me that there seems to be some really muddled thinking erm coming from the District Council, erm with real sort of erm er erm contradictions. On, on one hand, you're talking about, or they're talking about, we're talking about, improving the aesthetics aspect of the market place,wi with nice pavings and attractive features. And on the other hand, the moment they, they're going to stick masses and masses er o o of stands,the the these market trader pieces on it, and really I can't understand er why bother, if you're going to destroy something in that sort of way? Why bother to do it in the first place? I, I think that there's a lot of confusion going on, and, and I don't understand it. I'm not sure just who... where, how people are arriving at these two decisions. It's almost as if it's a completely different team, that don't even talk to one another. [speaker002:] It's the same department. Well, it's a different team. That's correct.... That's right. [Peter:] Now I've got to move on, please, can I have one point? [Lynn:] Can I ask a does the scheme erm mention stalls, and what were [Anne:] Not as a permanent feature, no no, I think that the er the [Lynn:] But the other scheme did at least indicate where the stalls would be, taken that into account. [Anne:] No, these didn't show any stalls, but they're i it was explained that one of the constraints in the design of the scheme was the brief that they had to leave space for er as many stalls as possible to be erected. [Lynn:] But they had? [Peter:] Yes, that's right. We'll ask Mr to, to come along to [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] erm Southwell centenary, which is next year if you recall, erm... we've... at a previous meeting I raised this erm... the point with councillors that next year is our centenary of our formation, we don't have any archives unfortunately, er they were lost in the last sort of decade. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Oh quite conveniently. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Erm, but it is our centenary, and I just wondered... other, other parish councils are recognizing the centenary in other ways. The, I've only had only suggestion erm put to me, but there may be others. The suggestion I've had is that we have got held in the budgets erm land acquisition, I mean it may be that we actually pool this the, the new land acquisition after the centenary, which might be erm a way of recognizing the centenary of the, of the parish council. Other parish councils are... holding markets and holding events, but I, I don't know. Any comment?... [Anne:] What do you mean other parish councils are holding [Peter:] All [Anne:] have other people got centenaries as well? [Peter:] Yes. Er in eighteen ninety four, the Parish Councils Act was established by, by the Gladstone government, it was, erm which created the network of, for the first time, of local community representation. And so in Nottinghamshire, erm other councils, such as Farnsfield and Balderton also established simultaneously. So there will be national events, but er I'm thinking particularly in Southwell. [speaker002:] Bob, er I take it that you know the suggestion that we perhaps name the... er thing, this particular thing, you know the centenary fields or something like that, you know is a very good suggestion, but I think perhaps the council ought to do something. Perhaps we ought to have a service at the Minster, or er something to you know, er remember the... service of many given to the parish council over a hundred years, and er and it's something simple, and I think it would be quite nice to er to do something like that. What we incorporate... [Christine:] Erm I, I, I agree with that. In fact I mean you can buy or I mean you've got the record of erm how far back, you could invite all the existing, [LAUGHTER] living [] [LAUGHTER] parish councillors, so far as we could, and, and that, that would be, I think that would be... fascinating. perhaps a reception in the great hall. [David:] Well, I don't want it's not something peculiar to us is it? Erm it's a hundred years of parish government really, and er I would have thought probably we'll find out that the National Association of Local Councils will probably be organizing something we can erm erm you know, adhere to. If some project comes up during the course of the year, I would have thought that it might be appropriate to erm er cobble the name of centenary onto it, but I don't really think that this year we just commit ourselves to something just because there's a hundred years of parish government coming up. Sorry, but er... I don't think, I don't really think it's peculiar to us, [speaker002:] I, I disagree entirely. They ought to... [tape change] [Peter:] So the, the two suggestions which we'll put forward then is, is naming one of capital projects in, in this financial year, of the centenary, and possibly looking at er erm joining into a service or establishing a service with the Minster, and I'll, I'll look into that with the Provost as well, and the Association. [speaker002:] Yeah. I'll [Pat:] , we've got a proposed wood here, a centenary wood [Peter:] Oh yes, can I [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] can you all try to as we're getting a bit late. Erm... this is a rewrite which I suggest we er refer to the General Purposes Committee, but there is a, a problem in terms of the access to the recreation area and the nature reserve, that's er on the bridge adjoining the ponds right across the sp across the diagonal of Road. The stile is stopped up and, and... res erm children particularly are clambering over the bridge in order to use the footpath, which actually does end at the stile, which has been stopped up, erm through the nature reserve. It, it does appear that there, there's problems on, on that corner of the Road bridge with, there could be weakening of that bridge, erm it could be erm disrupted. Also the bank is crumbling where children are climbing over, and we need to do something about it. Lynn? [Lynn:] Yes,Chairm er it's a bit of a dilemma really because the area that is being used to, to walk and then clamber over this bridge, is actually within the nature reserve, as you rightly describe it. And what's happening is the children weren't walking from the school Street site to the Road site. Instead of walking... around the children's play area, and then down Road and joining the, the Road site footpath, are using that as a foot as a shortcut. And that's why they're sort of clambering over the bridge, in order to get onto the shortcut. And it would seem as though it's a logical thing to unblock a bit of the fence, so they can, instead of clamber over the bridge, just come straight through. However, if you do that, you're going to encourage these hundreds of children who make this crossing between the sites crossing every day, to walk through the er the, the nature reserve. Which will have two effects. One, it will erode because of the... the numbers of children and the, the numbers that they walk abreast, it'll erode the grass areas on either side of the nature reserve pathways. They won't stick to the pathway, because they don't do it in the school. And er it's because of er their numbers. Therefore by encouraging more of them to use this route, you'll erode your, your planting in the nature reserve. And secondly, you'll get a greater, obviously a greater amount of litter, because they do eat as they walk [LAUGHTER] across the sites []. And they drop their crisp packets and their tins. And they, you know, they're no worse than children anywhere else in the country, and I don't wish to make a big song and dance about it. It's just a fact of modern life when children eat out in the street you get litter. [David:] That means all the kids are dope fiends. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] So I... both the, both those disadvantages... lead me to think that we ought not to unblock this area. I think that they, you know,i i i i if there is da damage being done to the bridge, then we've got to somehow address that in a different way. I would be reluctant to see this er this fence removed to allow them to use that [speaker002:] Sorry? You [Peter:] I've raised this, these points that we've raised when we went and met Donald down at the park, and the school have said they will not erm allow the children to go that way. When there's a school teacher down there, it should happen at all break times and meal times, erm... er they, they're not going to be allowed to go down there. M my concern is one of safety. I must be honest, having seen the children leap off that bridge, it's not going to be long before somebody falls and hurts themselves. So I accept the point that, that Lynn made, but I feel that... it's a, somebody's eventually going to fall into that water. And we were down there Lynn on [Lynn:] Mm. [Peter:] and what were the kids doing? Just leaping over it. [Lynn:] They were jumping over. [Peter:] And it's dried up now. [Anne:] Can I just say then that I think either it's got to be blocked completely so they can't jump over the bridge, or it's got to be unblocked. And I'd say it was better to unblock, because the kids all walk over that bridge now, they're eroding away the bank, the. You'd have to fence right along the bridge and completely block it. But the daft thing is really that there is a, an access into the little play area from there. If you don't go through that way to the little play area, you've got to walk all the way round. The other thing is if the school children walk round, and through where they're supposed to go, it still goes past Wide Pond, and they've eroded all the grass where they've made their own little footpaths through, I don't think going... that going the other way would make it any different. They're still going through that nature reserve area. And the other thing is that the river along there is full of litter anyway, and it just flows along. I don't think [speaker002:] Can I, can I [Anne:] I, I think personally, it would be better to open it up properly. [Peter:] Can I suggest we actually have a look at this in General Purposes? Cos I think that what we will need to do is refer it to General Purposes Committee for and people to go and have a look at it. Erm there are a number of suggestions, one of which is to open it. One of which is not to open it. The other is to put a fence alongside the, the, the river er there, in a similar way to the southern end of the bridge. So people of General P members of the General Purposes Committee, go down and have a look at the bridge, have a look at the southern end, where there is a... a wooden plank, which actually prevents this sort of activity, on the southern end, but not on the northern end. So perhaps we can have a look there, and this will appear on the ne and, and I suggest we look at it on the next General Purposes Committee. Last point, Peter? Just before, you know, you make your final decision at the General Purposes, would you please consider the small children on the playground area there please? Because the reason that er stile was blocked off in the first instance was there was a case where a child ran across that road. Now whatever you do by opening up this... it's got to be done for safety purposes, please, for the infants. And I think if you're going to open it up, you must consider probably a wicker gate or something s so that a child cannot run onto Road. I think you'll have a fatal accident eventually if you do. Thank you. Can I, can I move on or is this a? [Pat:] I ju just one point to make, that the children can't run out of this area onto, there's already a stile out of the play area, for that path, before you get to the road. [Peter:] It's, it was done that's why did block it up with a in the first instance. [Pat:] But it's about two or three. [Peter:] Yeah, but it did, it has happened it has happened. But I mean But if we're going to co if we're going to open it up, we need to consider the sort of gate, perhaps a kissing gate might be the one to put in, rather than a stile. Shall we defer this to the General Purposes Committee meeting? Thank you.... Erm right, number thirteen.... get through this by nine o'clock. Er you'll be aware from the letter which was circulated to you by Steve, that we had a significant problem with water leakage down the... our pipe, which joins the mains water supply at the memorial, war memorial. After that meter, all of that water usage is our responsibility. And we were using er about a cubic meter every three hours. In other words, it was costing us about a pound an hour... in water. So as an emergency, without any budgetary provision, er we decided, erm on consultation with a number of councillors, that the only thing we could do was actually locate the water leak... and replace it. But having had some estimates for that, it became... inappropriate to, it became more cost effective to replace the entire pipe with a wider diameter pipe. Because you'll know that we have water pi pressure problems on that particular er water line. It doesn't mean to say the water po pressure will be increased at the moment, because the final connection to the fifty mil water main is still the narrow gauge. But what we decided to do was to replace the entire water main... erm with erm a double, a double capacity pipeline.... And at the same time improve the water supply situation there, by providing some standpipes so that our groundsmen can water... a number of the er various facilities down there. And we had an er er an estimate, erm er which was circulated, which we accepted. We've had to increase the cost of that estimate by, for three things.... Firstly, we came across electric cables that were only three inches below the surface of the ground.... This was... clearly significantly dangerous, and so whilst we w had the J C B, J C B down there, we asked the contractor to dig er to remove those electric cables and actually replace them at an appropriate depth. The second, the second point was that while the J C B was down there we er erm in consultation erm the chairman of those committees, we removed the old concrete base which crumbled whilst we were digging the... erm the t the trench for the water pipeline, it was actually crumbling away. And so it was actually becoming dangerous at the same time.... The, the next point w the, an additional point was, in discussion with the Cathedral Council, the Cathedral Council have always been interested, and the church commissioners, have always been interested in having a water supply to the cemetery. And so we took advantage of the tender and the contractor being in th in the area, to extend the water pipeline... from its current location at the football stadi erm er pavilion, through to the cemetery. And install a cattle trough which is, as far as we ho as far as we believe, vandal-proof, in that it'll be a self-filling c er cistern filled cattle trough which the, the erm the, the ball float is actually contained in a erm a metal box so you can't get access to it. We have found the leaks, and we have connected all, we have reconnected all of the er supplies, including a supply to the cathedral field, which has never been billed in the past er because of erm damage to their meter, it's only used twenty seven gallons but twenty seven litres, but whilst I've been here, it's a water meadow from the result of the water that we've been supplying to that particular field.... And we've also extended the, the, as a new measure, the water supply along the side of the football and rugby pitches so that Don can water... the goalmouths erm of both the goal, of both the football and the rugby pitches, which is a considerable improvement. That increased our tender price significantly as you can imagine.... about one thousand pounds. But as a consequence of all that work, we've actually gained an additional five hundred and seventy pounds grant from the church commissioners, from the... Scouts and from the Cathedral Council for this new additional work. So we've actually got [cough] a bill... of three thousand one hundred and four pounds, to replace this water main. It is a replacement, we were losing that money... erm because the, the water meter was going round at a pound an hour. But we've increased the capacity of that pipe, so that if we have some more money eventually, we can er replace the final five yards from our meter to the Severn Trent water main er in some future years, to improve the pressure problems down the whole pipeline.... So I th I hope that's a full report to you. It's a problem that we had to face, and we had to take it, because otherwise we were going to be faced with an enormous bill, erm for ourselves, because it was down to us. We have found all the leaks, there were about five leaks I think, down that. The major leak erm was at the Scouts' hut, where erm the, the building was actually putting pressure upon the water main, and er causing a leak. Directly into a drain, so we never s that's why we didn't see it, because the water was actually pouring down a drain, so of course we didn't see the water lolling up the waterlogged ground, otherwise we'd have spotted it earlier.... So that's I hope a, a r report on the activity there. What will now happen is that er the contractor will regrade the land, erm but we will grass-seed it erm with Don, er our groundsman will look after and maintain that er so that it'll be reinstated er over the next er six months. [speaker002:] Do you want retrospective approval? [Peter:] I'm merely seeking that budget commitment. [speaker002:] I approve it. [Peter:] Well yes I, no, I would endorse that and, and hopefully perhaps you know the comments that have been made [cough] will be picked up by the press. Because I had a number of people who've been on to me talking about the mess on the, on the recreation ground, and asking what it's for, and as soon as you explain why, you know, it's been accepted. But it, it, it caused an initial aggravation, but it's only because people didn't know. And, and if it's in the press. Well, we didn't have a discussion about it because as you can imagine, the, the three weeks that we've, since this problem's arisen before Easter, we'd have actually lost another thousand pounds in terms of water costs.... Yeah, I think we should minute erm our appreciation of the action taken by yourself and the clerk in resolving this matter, because we did approve work erm and it became obvious after work was commenced that there was additional work that needed to be got on with and that it was er er obviously going to be a cost-effective exercise to do it there and then, and er you both er canvassed as many councillors as you could at the time, all the committee Chairmen were, were involved, I don't see that you could have done any more in the circumstances. And er I think you ought to be congratulated on the actions taken. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mhm. [Peter:] Can we have approval for that er expenditure then?... Thank you.... I think Peter declare an interest in this one Yes to me. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Peter:] Erm thank you for that.... Erm item fourteen, trees for the war memorial recreation ground. We had a number of erm er items on this. We have significant expenditure erm in line on this. We budgeted a thousand pounds, it looks as if we're going to have to spend more on urgent work. We've now had a letter from Simon, as you asked us to get, on the trees and recreation ground, saying that, yes indeed, he says he now points out that there are dangers in the willow tree and also the dead Leylandi erm behind the children's play area, and also some of the dead wood which we've already identified. So we're going to have to proceed with some of this expenditure, probably twice the budgeted... b budgeted erm monies. We're going to see if we can actually do all of that work for two thousand pounds rather than the three thousand pounds which we we're [David:] Which is? The one that where the bridge is at the far end? [speaker002:] Yes. [Peter:] Yes. [David:] Cos that's been in dilap er condition all my life. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] And if you look at they're all the same. [speaker002:] going to do anything, or are suggest that they you know, do the bare nece the bare necessity of work. Rather [Peter:] We've, we've got difficulty here because we've now got letters saying that you know, it's down to us, and that the er tree surgeons... er from the County Council believe that they are a danger to... a danger to the public. [David:] It's a question of safety, it got to be [speaker002:] ? [David:] Is it the ones? [Steve:] I mean all good trees are being and over the years they all go, don't they? And they they're an ideal habitat for wildlife, and... sometimes I think unnecessary.... That's my opinion. [Anne:] Yes, but they when th they're in a public park, as these are... I think public safety has to take priority over the wildlife consideration. [Peter:] I it's not all of them, there's a one particular one, which is actually causing s concern to the erm to the p p I, I think perhaps what we need to do s is v people who are interested in this work actually speak to Steve as he starts to contract the work out.... Erm because the the there are quite detailed reports here which I'm not, not able to go into. We've had a number of quotations and a number of reports here. What I'm saying to you is... that, that we actually need to find additional money for this, because this is over our budgeted amount... if we are to proceed, and I, the clerk is suggesting to us that we do proceed, because he's concerned on our behalfs.... So [Steve:] There is an item late on the agenda which will,i if it's agreed by council, will release a little bit of money that would, we could put perhaps to er towards this... thousand pounds.... [David:] Oh, I'm sorry, appear but er I'd have thought this tree's g er g erm willow trees make cricket bats, and cricket bat manufacturers will purchase willow trees. [speaker002:] Only only certain types of willow tree. [David:] That's what we call [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Christine:] Chairman, don't we have a number er the hold-over or, or balances to cover this expenditure? [speaker002:] Yes we do. [Christine:] And that the main problem is those councillors who are concerned about it, and I think that you've made the point that those who are concerned must go and, and... speak to the clerk and look at the er specifications [speaker002:] [cough] [Christine:] detailed specifications before the work is commenced. [speaker002:] Yes. Mm. [Christine:] And then not howl and sort of get enraged afterwards because they didn't realize what was happening. [Peter:] I think, I think I'm actually seeking your approval then to spend additional thousand pounds from our balances... for this safety work, which we may well be able to top up later in the discussion this evening. John? Seconded that?... Agreed?... Any against?... [cough] Item fifteen. Erm we're pleased to announce that we've appointed a new handyman... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] erm er Mr Dennis, who's accepted the appointment. He starts next week. And er he was interviewed by the Appointments Committee, and erm I think he'll be a very good appointment. He was interviewed as you know by the clerk, by our groundsman, and a councillor. So thank you very much er for your work on that, and I think you made a good appointment. So. [Pat:] Does he live in Southwell? [Peter:] Yes, he lives at.... [Pat:] Is he a young man? [Peter:] Er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] University graduate? [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] A well, a well-qualified [Lynn:] candidate [speaker002:] Yes. Yeah. [Peter:] Can I move on to item number sixteen, the Cheskevod's trading charter. On your table er you were given a copy of the draft, the English draft of the charter er which I've had a look at, it was given to me [speaker002:] [cough] [Peter:] by the er Trading Association, it seems to me to be quite a sensible charter, and er I propose that we write to the Association saying this is very good and can we get it [speaker002:] In copperplate? [Peter:] Er we're going to er get it drafted up and... er we have some money in the, we have some money in our... budget, for a gift, and it seems to me appropriate erm that the gift that we might make to Cheskevod is the... s trading charter which we can get for the money that we've budgeted... er written by a calligrapher who I've already contacted, who said that they can do it erm well, for that sort of price, in both English and Czech. [speaker002:] That's [Anne:] How much? [Peter:] I think it's a hundred [Steve:] Hundred and fifty. [Peter:] hundred and fifty pounds. But we can actually get it framed and I mean we'll get it for well under that. [David:] So you're proposing that from the chair? [Peter:] I'm proposing that we accept this er trading charter draft, and that the Parish Council erm looks to provide once the Czech version as being er provided for us from Czechoslovakia er from the Czech Republic rather, that erm we'll accept. [Anne:] And it will be ready for the for the visit in May? [Peter:] It will be ready for the visit in May. [Anne:] Oh lovely. Agreed. [Peter:] Agreed? [speaker002:] Agreed. Agreed. [Peter:] Thank you. [David:] Th I mean there is th you have a charter here as well presumably? [Peter:] We have two copies of the charter. That's right. [David:] Alright. [speaker002:] Mm.... [Peter:] But the er but the one's currently hanging up in the library.... version. Er item number seventeen. This really refers back and I think the time refers back to the discussion that we had under the er liaison conference. In order to help us I think in our discussions, it seems to me that, I think we ought to write formally to the County Council and to the District Council actually asking them for more details of their consideration for what they intend to do about parishes. Now we've been to these meetings, and there's a lot of airy-fairy words about yes we support parishes. I think in order to support our... our response to the Royal Commission, which is imminent, the County Council and the District Council must now have had... firm ideas on what they intend to do with parishes. So what I'm proposing is that we write to er Mick and erm Richard, asking what powers and responsibilities that they propose at the moment to devolve to Southwell. Seconded. Well hope to have that typed by next meeting.... Any against that? [speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Number eighteen. Peter do you want to talk about this one? Yes I think He knows nothing about it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Same with Finance Committee. [Peter:] Steve? [Steve:] As I mentioned previously, my, my accountant said, drop this, because it's going to put me in all sorts of problems with my taxation and things. So I would ask nicely that I have petty cash of say thirty pounds, which out of I would buy, or pay the cleaners' wages, and any minor expenses that come my way. [Peter:] It would be an interest account? [Steve:] It would be an interest account. Er... thirty pound maximum, I would keep the money at home, so there's no risk, risk to any money of being left in the office erm and I would be obviously responsible of returning thirty pounds. [Peter:] And the bills will come anyway in the normal way to, to, to the, it's got pushed into the dike, and it's gone down afew, it's got pushed into the dike, and it's gone down afew y thirty pounds maximum... are we agreed? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Peter:] Thank you.... Move on to the refurbishment of the toilet block. Now you'll have heard that we painted the toilet block, and it does look very smart.... We haven't opened the toilet block as yet, because if you remember that the Recreation Ground Committee, we're opening it in the... er after the school has started and shutting it before the school ends, so that we don't have the problems of vandalism which we've had in the past, hopefully. So we'll o er Don, our groundsman, has agreed to it... erm during the daytime. Steve? [Steve:] If, if you er go down and visit the toilet block you will see above the doors there are a number of bricks that have come loose on both sides. This is due to the fact that no lintel was placed in there when the building was erected. And there's actually cracks appearing [speaker002:] Bulging. [Steve:] bulging, yeah. I'm very concerned that if we don't get some urgent remedial action to do this brickwork, that we're gong to have a major problem down there. Also, the roof is leaking in several places, there are cracks appearing on the parapet, which need, even to my eyes, need to be filled. Erm, what I've done is I've asked for quotes from three companies er to see how much work, how much it'll cost us to take this action. I feel that we must take it almost immediately, because if those bricks do go, we're going to have a major. [speaker002:] I think you'll find that all on the back side, and those bricks will be into the lintel at the back. tied it What they just sort of? Yeah. Yeah. [Peter:] What, what'd happened is that there's a concrete span right at the back, and they've the inner course off it, but the external bit built off the door frame. [Anne:] Botched job,. [Peter:] It is yes [Anne:] It sounds like it. [Peter:] No that's how all places was built up until about nineteen seventy eight. [Anne:] Oh well. [Peter:] Well the door frame, I mean the bricks' ll be alright, but they'll maybe just t sag down, and that, that, that's what's happened, the door frame has, has taken the weight, it's sagged, but is also bulging, In in particular the gents' side. But in the sixties and seventies, that's where all the kids used to jump up onto the flat roof, that was the area where they jumped up, so this could be a result of what has happened from there, I mean that's why the [Christine:] ... you weren't one of them were you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] job to. What you used to do, you see, years ago, was turn the off the lights inside the toilets, and go in there at night, and sleep. [speaker002:] Oh! Who did? Ooh! [Peter:] Kids. And that's why we've got [Anne:] So it's not a new thing this. [Peter:] lintel this side of the toilets now, [speaker002:] It's not a new phenomenon. [Peter:] metal bricks, which stops the kids getting in. And that's what they did, they used to with that the steps, the brickwork. Fifty percent We, we do have some, we do have some grant applications on, on this, because of it, it, it being public toilet, and also improving the environment, [speaker002:] Mm. [Peter:] including one from British Telecom, which it seems to be being done quite well, so it'll be improving the environment week. And it seems to me that it was an improvement of the environment to have some decent public toilets. [speaker002:] Very good. [Pat:] Just one point, it's rather a shame they can't be open at weekends? Because there are quite a lot of adults in the park with younger children during the weekend. And I don't think there'd be a problem at four o'clock... vandalizing as such I mean we did [Peter:] I think that's maybe the Recreation Ground Committee, who's really looking after this on, on our behalf could actually investigate, [Anne:] You'd still have the problem of small children. [Peter:] Yes. A and also that the erm signpost We can't have them till this work's done No. [Pat:] We have the problem though of getting them Donald said he wasn't prepared to. [Anne:] Oh well perhaps the new handyman was more [Christine:] Y what about the possibilities eventually? I mean the chaps in the tennis club are saying put it down. Erm because it's an eyesore. What about having some sort of... one of these superloos or some vandal-proof toilet there, you know if er people actually pay to go in it, it wouldn't be so bad. [Peter:] Well I know [Anne:] Those cost ninety thousand pounds. [Christine:] Shall we get a grant? for [LAUGHTER] for [] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] . Can we suggest that the Recreation Ground look at the opening of the toilets, and ask them to, to consider this, at their next meeting? Erm but we do need an approval to go out and for quotations and sorry tenders on this, on this work, which is actually urgent. Erm Well can, can the clerk er ask about getting three tenders, and take the lowest and get on with the job? Yes.... [Steve:] I think actually it would be a good idea if I met Steve we er did a er a list of what wants doing, exactly what wants doing. [speaker002:] Yes, it really [Peter:] A full specification. Good idea. [Pat:] But with regard to the erm the of it, you need more than ninety thousand [Peter:] So there are three things that we've talked about then. An i an immediate going out to work on this re remedying the brickwork problem, which is getting, the cracking is significant and, and potentially dangerous at the moment, the full refurbishment of the block, which the grant applications are in for, and the opening er and asking the Recreation Ground Committee to r reexamine the opening of the toilets. Those three... items. Are we agreed on those? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Peter:] Thank you. Erm footway repairs in Southwell. Yes, Steve? [Steve:] Er this item was on the last agenda. I got a letter from Richard, who's the area manager of Notts County Council, offering us er well let me read it to you, it says, [reading] thank you for your letter of twenty sixth of March, and comments therein. I shall be pleased to meet you and your councillors to discuss and inspect any problem areas. May I suggest one of the following []. He's given me three dates... when he'd be delighted to meet us erm Friday the thirtieth of April, four of May or fifth of May, but other dates a as necessary. Erm then he's very willing to go round with us. [Peter:] Which, which one of those dates is [Lynn:] What, what days are they? [Steve:] Friday, the [Peter:] Tuesday, Wednesday. [Steve:] Friday the thirtieth of April, Tuesday the fourth of May or Wednesday the fifth of May. [Lynn:] I can do any of those. [Peter:] Yeah [Anne:] Is, is it to walk round? [Peter:] Yes, it's to walk round Peter, you were were you available at any of those times? I shall work in, because I mean I'm the one who's been pushing to get them on this. I mean I would make sure I'm there, cos I'm disgusted with the pavements in Southwell. [speaker002:] So it's the pavements? [Peter:] It's the pavements. Pave [speaker002:] Yes. [Peter:] pavement repairs. Then We can't get them done John cos of cable television. Can we It's a feeble excuse as far as I'm concerned, and we can't wait long you know, Steve will then er arrange one of the days the most convenient to himself and Mr, and since Lynn and Peter are able to accommodate eith any of those three dates, we'll circulate to other councillors er if anybody else is interested in commenting or providing information.... Is that agreed? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Peter:] Thank you.... Perhaps we could do that. Parking problems, Road, Southwell. We've had a reply... from the County Council... erm we have, we have had erm erm a reply, they will be doing er a survey on Road to see if it i wants inclusion. They say that the stop signs, the visibility... isn't erm again, he's going to s to erm... er he says that the stop signs, the visibility isn't bad enough, that the, the difficulties in visibility aren't bad enough, but he's going to reexamine... that particular situation. He doesn't think that widening the carriageway on the corner of Road and Road will be very sensible, but that wasn't what we were suggesting, we were suggesting I think on er Avenue rather than so we'll have to write back and tell him. [Anne:] I think one of the residents. [speaker002:] Residents did. Yes. [Peter:] So he is actually taking some action, and he will come back to us fairly soon he said erm... about the result of his survey, whether or not there'll be a residents' scheme down there.... I've no further information on that... [Anne:] Could we just er by following that up Chairman, suggest that they, that they look at p the provision of double yellow lines around the kerb, around those kerbs that go from lower Road into Road, because it's on that corner that you get the, the van parked which is causing the visibility problems. [speaker002:] Alright, of course It's not on the road. [Anne:] What? [speaker002:] The van. [Anne:] double yellow lines around that kerb, around the corner, would actually stop that happening. [Peter:] Right so we'll [speaker002:] been on that wasteland. [David:] But I always thought it was illegal to park within fifteen yards of a corner anyway. And I can't understand why the police don't shift these vehicles. cos they're clearly dangerous, and erm the police have the powers to remove any vehicle if they think it's causing an obstruction, no matter where it is. [speaker002:] I know of similar things happening in, that are... equally bad if not worse, and nobody seems to be able to get any action at all, out of police, District Council, or, so [Peter:] Well [speaker002:] why I don't know,. [Peter:] Well, I mean at least Mr 's coming out, and we'll ask Steve to raise those very points with him, and I'll also raise it with Mr, the inspector when I see the inspector about that particular issue. I mean I always thought if you were parked too close to it, they take your number and next thing you know, you get a, a, a summons come through the post. [Christine:] I should think it's within sight of the police station anyway, I should think. [Peter:] I will raise that with erm. [speaker002:] [cough] [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] Shall I, I shall have to apologize to the council, cos I mean I did do the, the survey of the erm residents and of course I had flu last month, I do apologize, I didn't actually manage to get that done. But if you still want me to do it I will do it. [Peter:] I think it would be probably worthwhile erm talking to the residents down there, and actually explaining that th what's happening to them. [David:] It's all their cars, isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. [David:] worth it, because full of cars. [Peter:] Well, they may well do.... But at least we're taking some action and finding out what they want, which is... part of the problem. [Lynn:] Has the problem increased since the road through 's been reopened? [Peter:] Well that that may be something which we ma will actually find out when we [Lynn:] It should have done.... [Peter:] Can we move on then to erm purchase of the sports pitches. You'll be aware that the planning application is in, there are some grant applications in with two er bodies, erm the Newbury and Sherwood District Council, and the Foundation for Sports and Arts. Er, we haven't heard from any of those. The committee meet the sub the committee has not met yet, because there hasn't been any action, and we won't be meeting until we get some movement from any of those three agencies who'll be replying to us. [speaker002:] May I ask, Chairman, cos I missed the last... meeting, what, what the, the subcommittee, is that the s an ad hoc subcommittee? [Peter:] Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We agreed to set it up at the last meeting. [speaker002:] So what, what stage are we at? Are we still investigatory stage, or have we taken a policy decision that we will purchase this ground? unclear at the moment, isn't it? [Peter:] Well, we have de delegated powers to the subcommittee, which consists of myself, Roger, Lynn, John and Steve er Steve. We're putting some money away for e expenses, we've taken up the option to purchase, we've put in a planning application for change of use, we investigated possible grant applications, we're investigating future expenditure and income generation, and then we report back to this committee once. [speaker002:] For the decision. [Peter:] For the [speaker002:] Statement. [Peter:] We hadn't [Lynn:] We want to erm er found out, or we make a decid [Peter:] That's right. [Lynn:] a decision [Peter:] We hadn't [Lynn:] finally whether or not to buy. [Peter:] We had not decided to purchase. [speaker002:] That's right. [Lynn:] Right. [Peter:] We have taken an option to purchase at the... at the cost as agreed, which was the problem last time whilst we get planning applications, which is currently in. The grant applications are in, and when we've got all that information er then subcommittee will erm bring all those reports together, and present a report to the full council. John? [speaker002:] ? [Peter:] Yes, we would do that. Yes. An agreement, yes. But what I haven't [speaker002:] You're going for that? [Peter:] We well, that doesn't commit us to anything, and doesn't cost any, cost any money, so that application is in, I believe, isn't it? [Steve:] Well I haven't done it yet. Cos gone to the Sports Foundation. [Peter:] Right. Yes. Well, we, we may not actually need to go to the P W L B for money, because of the, because of the grant, we may actually get a hundred percent grant aid for this, and if we get a hundred perce hundred percent grant aid, we won't need to. But that's i that's what the subcommittee will actually consider, once we've actually er got some replies from these three agencies.... Are there any questions on the sports pitches? Er, right, let's move on to 's recreation ground, purchase of land. You will remember that the, the District Council offered to sell the land for four thousand pounds, and I think Steve's got a report. [Steve:] Well, I phoned them up, and I'd been badgering them, and they told me to wait for a further communication. So when I didn't receive any further communication, I've gone back to them and asked them whether they would be interested in reducing the price, cos we consider it to be too high for that one acre of land. Erm... they say they would not be willing to change their valuation, because that was the valuation er come to by the District Values Office from, so they are not willing to, to come down in price.... Erm my recommendation at that price would be to say to you, don't buy, not at four thousand pounds, when your rent is one hundred pounds a year. [speaker002:] That's right. [Steve:] It would be erm... I, I feel we should go back to them. There is a rent review due next year, and I think they will be quite likely to ask you for additional rent, erm amount of rent per annum to you. But even saying that, if they doubled it to two hundred pounds, it's a lot of years before we reach four thousand pounds. [Christine:] Chairman, if they ask for er er additional rent, all we have to say is no, you maintain it as a, as a recreation ground, erm you know and then it passes back to them. [Peter:] Er I, I'm beginning to find the attitude of the District Council on this... not, not comprehendible. Because we are actually spending a hundred pounds, and refurbishing it, when it's ac which it could therefore be their, their entire responsibility. Now I'm minded at the moment to say, look, why should we pay a hundred pounds and pay all the, all the, all the refurbishment of that site, because they won't be able to develop it, there's no, there's no access to that land. You know there's no access to that land, so... er... why, why are they selling a at that price? So I d I am very much minded not to pursue the option of purchase. We've actually leased that land for this year, and wait and see what happens. Roger? [Anne:] Yes, er er I mean I agree with you Chairman entirely, I mean the arguments have been made before and I will just say them again, that I think the District Council are quite remiss er in asking for this sum of money, particularly in view of the reason that the, the, the field is there, which is for the recreation of the people who live in the estate, and the back end of Southwell, and it always has been, er and that is a responsibility that has been taken on by this Parish Council, and if, if, if they feel that they, they wish to persist in asking an unreasonable price, and let's face it, the District Council is in a position to look at this situation and say, the Parish Council is doing an excellent job, we will sell them this land for a figure that they can afford. If we are going to do the fencing, er and everything else, then may we then submit the bills for that work to the District Council? And ask them to take that on board, because I don't really see why we should be expected to take on both factors. So I would suggest that. [Pat:] I would have thought that we could request the fenc the fencing and tell them our plans for the fencing and... not lose anything by asking for them to [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] make some. [David:] The position yeah, it's as Roger said, and I think we've got to the stage now where we've shown good faith, we've had that land put in good order, and we can now I think quite justifi justifiably say, we've done enough, if you're not prepared to help any more, it's over to you. Cos at this point in time, we would have left that piece of ground in excellent condition. It sticks in my throat that you know we've had to pay it but, from the point of view of the residents, we've done the right thing by letting it. But now we can quite justifiably say, that land was handed over to you in excellent condition. And if they fail to keep it up, it's not our, not our responsibility any longer. [Peter:] I'm. [David:] we just go o go on... erm doing their job for them, and, and paying out of our own pockets. [Peter:] I don't think this is the time to discuss what we're going to do in the future, we've actually got on the table at the moment a proposal to purchase that land. What Steve is saying r recommending to you is that we don't take up that purchase this year, which is in our budget. Peter? the Boy Scouts can on there for a number of years, back to the fifties, there've been excellent tenants of that piece of land. And when we bear in mind Chairman that piece of land in the first instance was given to the Southwell D C by a Southwell resident.... It's now been handed over to the District Council I think they should be looking at it as a. That's what I think we should be asking for. [speaker002:] Yes. But it strikes [Peter:] John, cos John wa William gave him that, [David:] So they [Peter:] nineteen forty nine. [David:] They want housing value for it, don't they?... And they say the District Valuer's valued it at that, and they, and they, they would be failing in their responsibility to maybe try [speaker002:] Oh! [David:] to realize that money. Well we're not going to give it to them. [Peter:] They've done very well out of that parcel of land that was given. All the land to build those homes on, they was given the land for that re recreation ground, and I believe they should hand that back to the parish and the people. [David:] Yeah, well we agree with you Peter, but they won't do it. [Peter:] Yeah, but it's what they The only thing on the table at the moment is whether we pursue the option to purchase this year. [Anne:] No, I propose we don't. [speaker002:] I second that. we weren't aware of that, were we? [Peter:] Very clearly then, we've got a proposal that we don't pursue that option, which we've paid the len rent this year, we've paid the lease this year, so we can't backtrack on that, but maybe that'll come up for future discussion. So we have a proposal that we don't pursue that option to purchase. John? Just want a final point? Well just, just a final point, would it be worthwhile er informing the District Council of the history of the site, Chairman, because they may not be aware, as the, as the new owners of the site, they took it over from the Southwell District Council on reorganization. So they may not be aware of its history. A tract er of land was in fact given, and this piece of recreational land was Well I think the chairman of the committee s is aware, because he's been, he's been told. But Has he? Yes, I think so.... So we have an o we have a, a dis we have a proposal then not to proceed with the purchase of that land this year. Anybody in favour? Those against? [speaker002:] Could I make an amendment? [Peter:] Well, it's only in the interests of the council. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Er [Anne:] new proposal. [Peter:] Well I make a proposal that we also give them notice that at the end of this year, we will not be prepared to continue the lease on the current licence. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Anne:] No I think that we should wait and see what we're being offered to us cos there's a lot of er you know there's no, there's no need to sort of rush at the, I think we wait and see what they're going to offer us in er whenever it is that it comes up for renewal. And then we make all these [speaker002:] It's no good to them, this land if sold in the on this particular piece of land, they've sold all the viable access off to the residents of the haven't they? so there, there's no right of way really for them to get down there, and it should be cheap.... [Peter:] Right, well we... that, that proposal, is there a seconder for that proposal?... No. So we'll, we'll come back to that issue later, because we'll have to approve whether we rent the land i in future years anyway, it does come up. Can I move on to bridge repair of Road. We've already referred t I've already referred to a bit of this, in my er discussion with regard to the access to the... er nature reserve. There is a problem on the, on that, that bridge repair, which is the, which is the wooden plank er which a prevents access to the side of the, of the dike. Can I suggest that those members of the General Purposes Committee who are going to look at that area anyway, also have a look at the me the problems of, of this bank side, which is actually collapsing, er due to the weight of, of people. I think that's the problem there.... So could we defer that to General Purposes as well? [speaker002:] And while th they're down there, can they put a co re-bend that cornerstone, we used to have a cornerstone, it's got pushed into the dike, and it's gone down a few yards [Steve:] This is what we're talking about as well, it's Yeah. [Peter:] So there's a, there's a job for General Purposes possibly on that on the Bridge.... Can we defer it to General Purposes?... Thank you. Erm maintenance of the Road football pitch, we've had some complaints er on the er Road football pitch which relate to the er caravan access, erm caravan use, we've also had some er comments from the Pub, saying that they actually appreciate the caravans being in the area... because of the increased trade. So er can I suggest that we actually ask the... the Recreation Ground Committee to look at these problems over the er I don't think there are any significant problems actually after the, after the Easter weekend fortunately, but just to have er in reply to the city football club, because they are concerned, and have been I have to say for many years, so it's not unusual. [Pat:] the fact that, that we the Parish Council maintain that pitch, [Peter:] Yes. [Pat:] and yet the revenue from the caravans goes to District Council. [Peter:] It's er [Pat:] Are you

[Steve:] ... Shut up Henry. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Steve:] I'd like to welcome you to er this meeting of UNISON. It's an open meeting mainly to discuss er the campaign around er saving. I have a few erm apologies for absence to er make. One from Joyce, who until recently was a full-time COHSE at er. Quite where the jobs are going and who does what at this stage I'm not sure now we're UNISON. Erm... one from Paddy and I have an official letter er apologizing for not being able to be here. He said he's been pressing and pressurizing the Health Authority about the their plans for. [reading] The future appears to be shrouded in mystery and uncertainty. I find it difficult to conceive how an international hospital with a high with a highly regarded professional staff can be allowed to slip into terminal decline. It is an indictment on the present government's approach to the N H S. Incidentally, I can't be with you because I'm trying to ensure that in the next general election Labour will win more seats. Only with a Labour government can we ensure the N H S will be safe and secure []. That's erm that's his opinion. Erm... and also from er Alan MP from he er thanked us for inviting er him here today but he says, [reading] unfortunately I already have a previous engagement in London, and so will be unable to join you on this occasion. Please accept my apologies and best wishes, and rest assured... of my ongoing support. Yours sincerely, Alan MP []. Er we are hoping that erm Graham who's the MP er will be attending and speaking er Unless that's him on the phone at the moment. Erm other than that I'd just like to introduce the other speakers. I'm, my name's Steve and I chair the Save Campaign. Erm on my left here is John who's er from the District T U C. On my right is Jeff who is a founding member of the Save Campaign and an ex-patient of. And on the far end is Ed who's a full time UNIS UNISON officer. So could I without further ado introduce John. [John:] Erm... The Trac Trade Union Council in Mansfield basically supports for two reasons. One, that many trade unionists work at and there's a threat to their jobs and a threat to their future careers. Too many trade unionists will at some stage or other become patients of. And it seems strange in an area where we just lost General Hospital and everything has moved to, that, which is a nationally renowned hospital. Let's get that bit right nationally renowned. Is under threat. And I also noticed this week that nine specialist hospitals in London are now also under threat. This is from a government whose leader, John Major, said fifteen months ago, that the N H S is safe in his hands. Mind you he also said that David Mellor, Norman Lamont and Michael Mates had nothing to worry about with their jobs. Er we know where they went. Er like everything else [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Steve:] that John Major says, it seems to be very inaccurate, to put it politely. Lies is perhaps more accurate. The National Health Service was founded forty five years ago. For forty five years, we're being told continually that it is the envy of the world. Everybody would like to have a National Health Service, wherever you go in the world. And we seem to be at the moment watching the dismantling and the decline of the National Health Service. It concerns me, in fact I was, I've had a theory for a couple of years now, that what the Tories wish us all to do is to go on to the American system of medical insurance. Private health care. That is why specialist units have to be shut down. Why pay for good health care if you can get the best on the N H S? That is I think partly the thinking behind this government, that they wish to see us all pay health insurance. Take private, use private hospitals. Interestingly enough I also heard recently that takes patients from a private hospital, the, because they can give far better treatment than the private sector. It's kind of worrying. To tell what the Tories are doing to the N H S, I mean I don't think it's a case of us making them aware of what's happening. They know what they're doing to the N H S. I, come on I mean, if El Presidente Michael Heseltine, has to go all the way to Venice to have a heart attack. Because he's very much aware of what the Tories are doing to the Health Service same as the rest of the cabinet. And he has to go abroad before he dare have a heart attack. Most probably wouldn't be able to find a hospital open. You never know these days. Er so I mean this to us is a very important campaign. And I know there are speakers coming on that know far more about the N H S than I do, so I'm not gonna go on too long. Er because I mean we're just here to show support and to provide continuing support for this campaign. But it does concern me very much, not just the loss of jobs but it's the loss of services in this area. And this is an area now which faces very high unemployment, with the Tory policy on pit closures. What that basically means, wherever that happens anywhere else in the country, you go to South Wales, you go to West Lothian, places like that I've been up to West Lothian, all services are reduced... when your main industry's removed from an area. We do have an asset in, and I think it is worth us fighting to preserve that hospital, and not to watch it go into decline. But it's also about a bit more, it's about defending the National Health Service. Something which is very much under attack. We can see it daily, monthly. I don't quite understand how the government think they'll keep getting away with this. Erm I certainly know it's not a case of debates in Parliament. Or letters to John Major. I've a sneaking suspicion he bins any letter that criticizes his government, before he even reads it. It is all about people getting out. And about them fighting and making their voices heard. And I hope over the next few months that the people that's present today and other people, get more involved in the campaign. Show them some support. They keep battling away, the staff and the, the former patients at the hospital. And the unions, more directly involved in it. And as I say I'm not really, that is basically all I wanted to say. Must be one of the shortest speech I've ever done. Thanks. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Steve:] John, without further delay I'll introduce Jeff, who is a founding member of the campaign and an ex-patient. Jeff. [Jeff:] Well it er to be here and thank you for coming to the meeting. Er as I said on, on Thursday night, that it saddens me about, that I'm also an ex-patient of. And also I'm going in on the fourteenth of July, er in to have my knee washed out on the fourteenth of July. And it's been on my heart for a long time to save. Not just, but the other hospitals around my country, that are being threatened. And our Health Service is being threatened. And I reach out personally from the patients' and the public's point of view, to the people out there, that sit in their ivory towers in the homes, and say, they cannot do this to our hospitals. And all I say in response is, please get up, write on petitions, send them in to M Ps, send them in to the unions. Fill them in to save your hospitals, not just the unions or the M Ps, Labour, Conservative, Liberal whoever they are, it's your hospitals, it's their hospitals they're trying to close. It's one of the marvellous hospitals in the world. And we just reach out to you please to, to try to speak out to your friends. Er we will get on to the er the press and people, to really get out to the people, to save our, it's no good saying, in nine months' time, why wasn't there something done, for our hospitals? The time for, the time for our Health Service, the time for the rest of the hospitals in this country is now. It's today. Don't put off tomorrow, what can be done today, for your hospital, for. And I'd like you to just to reach out and the MPs and people just to keep fighting. Because what they're doing now as you know, they can do closing, they can do these now. We are having to fight hard, to save our hospitals. So we need these people have ammi ammunition, to fight for us,. I will still carry on and I'd like to see, on this T-shirt here, at the end of the day, we have saved. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Steve:] Thank you very much Jeff. I'd just like to welcome Graham who's come in. Erm and very quickly move on to Ed who's the UNISON full time. [speaker005:] Thanks very much Steve. Erm I think before I start, it's very very important, as has been pointed out by the previous two speakers, that we actually make a practical response to the closure of Hospital. We all do our bit to ensure that the general public and also members of the Health Authority, are fully aware of our feelings in connection with the closure of, what is not just a regional speciality, but what is a nationally and internationally renowned, orthopaedic hospital. I also think it's quite er symbolic that we're commemorating both the birth of the new public service union, UNISON, for the first of July, and also on Monday the forty fifth anniversary of the N H S. According to my understanding of, of Labour history, it was er during the war years, at one of the Labour Party conferences, that a NUPE resolution supported by COHSE, actually er brought about some of the, the, the many things that were written within the Beveridge report, and committed the Labour Party to the foundation of the National Health Service that would be free at the points of need for every member of the community. So I think, from the trade union movement's point of view, we can feel especially proud of the fact that on Monday we'll be celebrating the forty fifth anniversary of the Health Service, and all the advantages that that's brought to members of our communities and members of our, of our families. I think it's also very relevant that we look at the real threats that are facing the N H S. Within this locality we look at the imminent or fairly imminent closure of, of, of. John earlier spoke about the gradual Americanization of our National Health Service. The, the, the moves towards a form of credit card care, where ambulance workers will be asking you the, the number of your credit card before erm treatment will be given in hospital. Because that's literally the state of affairs in America. And one of my experiences since the N H S reforms has been working in hospitals and hopefully defending our members' interests. I mean I think maybe some of our shop stewards have a different opinion about er my involvement but that's what, what I aim to do. And one situation I came across as a consequence of the N H S reforms, was nurses on a maternity ward undergoing a work study. Which literally timed every single activity they undertook. The purpose of that exercise was to bring about a specification for maternity services. To build times that nurses spent working with patients, into a specification and to, basically to form contracts based upon that time. Now I think that approach to health care is fundamentally wrong, because you measure the needs of a patient in one moment and then suggest that the needs of that, that the needs of that patient will continue to be the same in subsequent weeks or subsequent months. So you actually build a time value into the contribution of nursing. You actually do exactly the same thing as you would do to a joiner in a, in, in, in, in a fitting shop, to say, This task c c c can take this length of erm time. So that's just one example of how commercialization is seeping into the N H S. Our nurses are, are un are, are, are being undermined in terms of the contributions that they, that they, that they can make. And it's also important that we look back over the last ten years to how the N H S has been fundamentally changed as a consequence of Tory government policy towards it. In the early nineteen eighties the government undertook a review by an expert, Sir Roy Griffiths. An expert in running supermarkets as chairman of Sainsburys. And obviously an expert in business. But clearly someone with without a background in health services, or indeed in the management of health services. What that review achieved was the compartmentalization of the Health Service, the breaking up of health authorities, from health authority into units, and the heading up of those particular units by, by general managers. Now my opinion is, is that was the first stage of the government's master plan to create a health service that would be ripe for privatization. Back in nineteen eighty eight the government faced a massive crash cash crisis in N H S funding, and er many people within the trade union movement took part in a massive rally in London to call on the government to review its policy towards the, the Health Service. Many of us at that time welcomed the fact that the government was taking stock of public opinion, and was t making the effort to review the, the, the N H S. But unfortunately what that review meant was that... what the review brought about was a near privatization of the Health Service through the government's N H S White Paper and subsequently the N H S and Community Care Act. The privileges of that Act went to the very heart of the N H S. In general because it introduced the concept of competition between the providers of the, the providers of health care in the so-called internal market. In simple terms health authorities have been turned into the buyers of health care, and, rather than the providers of health care. And that is very very significant. And I'll go on to talk about how that is significant in the context of, of. In this process they're able to purchase services, health authorities are able to purchase services from whoever they see fit, and basically from wherever they th they want to. In we saw the Health Authority choosing not to purchase services directly from the N H S for their but purchasing from a voluntary stroke private, privately motivated organization. And again there is no guarantee that any N H S trust will receive contracts from district health authorities in the future. Therefore the awarding of contracts affects completely the services of otherwise model erm hospitals and services. And in a similar fashion I think it's also important that we look the, the, move towards G P fundholding. Where G Ps are at liberty to refer their patients wherever they want to refer those patients. Yeah? So it won't necessarily be that patients from er a G P surgery or a G P practice will be referred directly to the local hospital. If G Ps are fundholders they have constraints upon their finance. And if you, you go and see a G P at the end of the financial year or at the wrong part of the financial year, then you may be referred to somewhere strictly because that's all the G P can, can afford to send you. So I think the scenario within, within the Health Service is basically that units, rather than working together, working in with each other, are actually competing to achieve contracts to, to, to secure work. In the context of, we'll be witnessing a change er... we'll be witnessing without a change on the part of the, the Health Authority, an eventual rundown of that hospital and a closure as a consequence of the internal market. Er firstly, a third of 's work is being transferred to Medical Centre, a third of its spinal services. And I think it's very important that we look at what the impact of that transfer will have upon the hospital. The remaining hospital will lose a third of its activity, will therefore lose a third of its income. But at the very same time, it'll retain many of the overheads that it's currently got, the overheads of management, some staffing overheads, the overheads for maintaining the estate of the, of, of, of the hospital. What this will do is present at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with other units to secure the contracts that it ultimately undertakes at the minute. The internal market makes no reference to the quality of care, to the ability of a particular unit to deliver care. It's simply to do with pounds, shillings and pence. And while many people can look towards the advantages of a spinal unit at, Medical Centre, people are failing to look at the disadvantages that that will cause for the provision of orthopaedic services in, in, in, in. because of the government reforms, is unlikely to survive because it will carry into competition a third additional overheads. Elsewhere will seem to be er will seem to be a little bit cheaper to the purchasing authorities.... To deal with the future of, the Health Authority com commissioned what's called the York Report. A very elusive document er for many of the trade unionists who were involved in negotiations with the management at the current time. Despite two written letters to er the District General Manager, that report hasn't been forthcoming. It contains vital information as to the ability of to survive. Yet there's a shroud of secrecy surrounding that report. It's likely that this report will set out how should close, and all the reasons why it should close. Erm as I've said strictly because it will be to it will be uncompetitive within the,with with within the internal market.... And I think if we look at the effects of the internal market in this situation, what the internal market will achieve is er a situation where this community and all the neighbouring communities that use will be [speaker002:] Excuse me. Sorry to butt in but if anybody's got a car parked at the back here, the warden's taken all the. [LAUGHTER] traffic warden is taking all the numbers. [Jeff:] Wwell actually he's jus he's just getting bored with me. That's why he said that. Right, right. I'll er I'll erm I, I'll crack on... crack on. I think in a similar fashion... in, in a similar fashion, we're seeing other areas of the country that are affected by, by the ravages of the internal market. Over recent months the Tomlinson Report recommended the closure of many of the, the, the country's finest teaching hospitals with wi with within London. Erm basically to say that elsewhere can provide services on a cheaper basis than those hospitals erm wi with within London. I think the other point I would want to make is that it's quite significant that in the week that we celebrate the forty fifth anniversary of the, the N H S, for the first time ever erm waiting lists within this country will have, will exceed one million. So all the rhetoric that we've had from this government about better performance N H S, more people being seen by the N H S, that must be read against the fact that over a million people are, or a million patients, are er waiting on N H S waiting lists. The other thing that we need to say is that far from creating efficiencies within the N H S, the bureaucracy attached to the changes when people are responsible for managing contracts, dealing with contracts, dealing with specifications for contracts. That within itself has cost one point two million pounds. And I think it's no wonder that for example within Trent region, over the, the last three years since the N H S Act came into force, that there has been a quadrupling of accountants or er administrators within the Health Service and a corresponding reduction within the numbers of nursing staff, the numbers of directly employed ancillary staff within with within the N H S. Again the internal market hasn't worked and isn't working. One other example over the last week just plucking, plucked out of the air, a hundred thousand pounds has been taken away from Hospital er College Hospital in London's budget for the treatment of AIDS patients. They will over the next few months be endeavouring to sack twenty five UNISON members, skilled nurses who work within that particular speciality. Think of the logic attached to that. At a time when the incidence of AIDS has risen to er approximately to two thousand four hundred a year, compared with one thousand six hundred a year in i i i in the previous twelve months. This government is, is, is seeking to reduce the budget of one the most necessary services within the country. I think another important thing for us to recognize is that many of the people within the N H S, the people directly responsible for the care, remain some of the lowest people in the country, the least rewarded people in the country. Now while that says a great deal about what the government thinks about of them and their expertise, it also says a great deal about how well regarded this National Health Service of ours is in the minds of this particular government. And again one of the great concerns that we have with the development of N H S Trusts, is those Trust Boards are able to determine their own policies in respect to staffing, to set their own pay scales for staff, also they are able to do their business to a large extent behind closed doors. Legally they are only required to have one public or open meeting at which the Community Health Council is invited to attend. Again my concern about that is that Trusts bring with them a shroud of secrecy, able to do business behind closed doors. And much of the concerns that we've been able to express about the Health Service has been as a direct consequence of us having information as to for example the numbers of bed closures, as for example the numbers of people on waiting lists. Trust status brings with it a cloud of secrecy. We'll be limited in our ability to find out what these Trusts are doing with public money, what they're doing er er in su su what they're doing er i i i in support of, support of patients. Another area that is of concern to us is the development of what's called Patient Focused Hospitals. Trusts within this locality, er are, a little bit further afield than, than, are actually looking a towards Patient Focused Hospitals, where in actual fact everything, every, every treatment a patient is dealt with on the ward, rather than have a skilled nurse undertaking part of the treatment, there will be multi-skilling so er the member of staff will be multi-skilled to perform almost every single aspect of erm care directly on a ward. Again an attempt to undermine the skills and expertise that currently exist within the Health Service. Again I, I think it's important th that I, I wind up before I start rambling. But maybe you think of course I started rambling when I started off but er thank you very much John. Erm. As I said from the start it's vitally important that we do everything we can to defend Hospital. It's vitally important that we mark the forty fifth anniversary of the N H S. Labour's greatest ever achievement, without fear of any contradiction, the greatest achievement of the Labour movement was the introduction of the N H S which still remains to a large extent, the envy of the world. We must fight to defend it. We must resolve on the forty fifth anniversary to continue in our support. We must all of us write to the Health Authority, to our local M Ps, to the government to defend Orthopaedic Hospital. Thanks very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Steve:] Thank you very much Ed. Erm... I er move straight over to er er Graham and then open up for any questions or if anybody wants to say anything from the floor. Graham. [Graham:] Right. Thank you very much, and er thanks for inviting me along. I'm sorry I became er a wee bit late. Sorry I nearly got a ticket as well. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Nice welcome to. I had to bring my passport with me to er obviously get into coming from but er I've got a letter from Alan as well so er me over the border. But the reason I'm here is just to express solidarity with the campaign that you're continuing. And it's a campaign that's gotta keep, keep on. There's no question about that. Er to let you know that your Labour members of parliament in Nottinghamshire as a whole er are backing the campaign. And that's because doesn't belong to you. [speaker002:] No, it don't. [Graham:] Belongs to everybody, and it particularly belongs to everybody in Nottinghamshire. Er whether you're from the south, north, the city or whatever. As far as we're concerned it's our and we want to keep it. And one of the er I think probably everybody in has some relative brother who's er used. Certainly my father not least because of his er mining history. And also my brother as well have used. And you go anywhere, you can go anywhere in the country, people talk about it. They know immediately when you start talking about. They know its record, they know what it does. And I think that's the most valuable thing. It's er what the er marketing people would call grand identification. And that means it's in people's minds, there's something even above what it actually is. It's got an image, it's got an emotional contact and I think we're gonna play that for all it's worth. It's one of the assets that we've got in the campaign. One of the other reasons I'm here is er, again with the blessing of er Jeff, and Alan, and the other MPs is to try and help the campaign along a little bit and hopefully er have friends from er Central Television who I've brought along today. Er who'll get it on the News tonight with a wee bit of luck. And if I may we'll set something up for them and we'll try and get the shirt on the telly and whatever and try and get people to remember. Anybody in the East Midlands that sees that News, remember their hospital is under threat. Did a little bit for the radio this morning in, Radio and Radio, and it's all grist to the mill. Keep the campaign going. Keep talking to people. keep letting people know the threat that is actually occurring. But it's not a new threat. We were talking earlier on about the N H S and the foundation of the N H S. When the National Health Service was founded, don't ever forget, on the second reading of the bill to establish the National Health Service, every single member of the Conservative Party voted against the establishment of the National Health Service. And in my view what they couldn't achieve on that night in Parliament in the nineteen forties is now being achieved by stealth, slicing bits and pieces away as they go along. They want a two tier health service and they're working towards a two tier health services. This for them is just one step along the way. And whether it's nasty shouting arrogant Kenneth Clarke or lovely perfumed Virginia, they're all the same underneath in terms of the way they look at the Health Service. It's alright for some to be able to buy private health care, and then the rest of us can have a diminishing and reducing National Health Service both in Nottinghamshire and throughout the rest of the country. Of course, they'll say well there's no demand. Well try telling the one thousand seven hundred and sixty two people who are currently on the waiting list at that there's no demand for the services that provide. Even the documents that er UNISON have provided to me, which indicate the shortfall in operations last year will indicate that the job isn't even being done with a fully fledged, let alone a reduced service. And slicing away one part of, transferring the spinal unit, just taking out bits and pieces, is designed to weaken the idea that itself can stand on its own. Once you've got rid of some of it, why not take another bit, and then at the end of the day let's close the whole damn thing and save everybody a lot of money. That's the theory that they're working on, and it's not just here. It's not just in, and it's not just in hospitals, it's all the way around. Over the last six weeks or so I'll tell you the places I've been and the people I've seen in the National Health Service. Now dentists. I had a meeting of all the dentists in about five weeks ago. Without exception every single one of them in that room, and I invited every single one from the whole of my constituency, said, we want to stay in the National Health Service. But because they're reducing the fee income for dentists in the National Health Service these dentists, dedicated people, in some pretty tough estates in my patch, were saying, I am being forced to go private. Whenever somebody comes into my surgery I offer them this so-called Denplan. Sign up for private insurance. They don't want to do it and some are even having to leave the N H S as a whole. But they are being forced to do it by fragrant Virginia, who's actually trying to reduce the ability of dentists to perform in the National Health Service as they want to do, and as they always have done. Four weeks ago I met every single G P in my constituency in a meeting. Those G Ps told me, I thought I was listening to my own speeches to be honest, from about a year or two ago. They were saying, oh you know what's happening. I said, no, there's a development of a two tier health service. I said, well welcome to the reality. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] It's what we were saying in the Labour Party before the nineteen ninety two election. And er I made one or two political points as you can imagine with doctors who are allegedly nonpolitical and don't want to get involved in all this messy er things about Conservative Party and Labour Party and the rest of it. The truth is, politics is coming home even to those so-called professional groups. They're getting hammered too. Yes, there is a two tier G Ps service developing in my city and in the shire. And there's no question about that. There's, they pointed out to me that the two thousand percent increase in prescription charges [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] since this lot came to power, is forcing people to make a decision as to whether they should get a prescription or whether they should not. And there was one of many heartrending stories about a doctor. She went round to this er house and said, why aren't, why aren't you improving, and the person said, I just can't afford the prescription. She went out and bought the prescription for this person because it was so essential. Not every doctor can do that and you certainly do it every week. So all the way round there are attacks taking place. And attacks quite deliberate, not just happening by accident. But quite deliberate, on the different parts of the Health Service. The nurses, two weeks ago I met nurses that I've met three years ago at my surgery about regrading. They still haven't been regraded five years later. Five years from the original appeal in nineteen eighty eight, those nurses still haven't gone all the way through the regrading process and any union officer will tell you that doesn't just occur in City Hospital in this case, but it occurs right across the as well. And now what they're saying is, well we'll buy out those appeals, if you had your appeal running for a few years we'll give you five hundred pound ex gratia payment. Go away and forget it. Well I can tell you if you get your right grade firstly you earn a lot more money. And it s should all be backdated. So it's not a very good deal. Secondly there's some of the nurses who weren't present at the meeting three weeks ago who had been present three years ago. The reason they weren't present? They've retired. The thing had gone on so long they'd actually retired from nursing. And one person had died in the process relating the appeal. I'm very pleased to say that the union er involved had actually pursued the appeal even though the woman had died, and won the appeal posthumously so that the backdated pay could be given to the widower in that case. Erm what a situation we're in when you can't get your appeal through in a reasonable time and it actually results in that sort of nonsense taking place. And finally a group in the National Health Service who I never thought would be on our team, the pharmacists. The classic singlehanded small business, which made Thatcher great. Every last one of them I would imagine that were in that room when I met them er a week ago Friday I would, would probably stake my shirt on it, not that shirt, but this one [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] that most of those people would have voted Conservative in nineteen eighty nine or three whatever eighty seven, ninety three, eighty three. I would have said they would, that they would have done. Every single one of them turned round at that meeting and said, will you go and beat the... out of that government for what they're doing to us. Because what they're now doing to them is saying, unless you... turnover two thousand prescriptions every month, we're gonna do away with your Professional Allowance. Now. Fine, okay. What, what does that actually what does that do? In a place like mine anybody who knows my patch you, you know old or you know certain parts of or you know certain parts of. They are not gonna produce those amounts of prescriptions per month, therefore they're not gonna get the Professional Allowance, therefore those pharmacies or those chemists are gonna close. And in one particular patch of I worked damned hard over the last three years to get a doctor onto that estate. It's the only estate in my patch without a doctor. I've now got a half-time doctor on there. If the pharmacy goes people are not gonna go to that doctor because there won't be a pharmacy nearby to get a prescription. So that whole effort to raise up that estate in my patch, will flounder because of some arbitrary limit imposed by Virginia Bottomley who obviously know very well from a commanding position in Whitehall. Absolute nonsense. Doctors, G Ps, nurses, pharmacists, dentists, they're all under attack and you're just part of the effort to try and repel that attack, all the way round. So the sort of things that are happening are happening everywhere and community care I think could be probably one of the areas that I could talk about at some length if you wanted to later on. Erm these er very sad cases this week of individuals, frankly no fault of their own, er committing horrendous crimes that we have seen. Erm schizophrenic people being released into the community prematurely, not having the assistance that they needed, committing crimes, innocent victims there. Innocent families having to suffer from that, all for the want of proper supervision and proper care. It spills over, it goes into er the civil service unions that I addressed in Parliament this week. Exactly the same thing's happening with them in terms of privatization, market testing. From examples as wide as er Group Four farcically taking over transportation of prisoners from prison er to court and back, and losing a few on the way. Erm to things such as er the er case of people not having adequate staff in prisons and therefore releasing people. It's almost like community care for the prisons, you want to keep an eye in this one? I had a case this week of a person who was reduced from a Category A, the most serious form of offender in prison, to a Category C. He was a rapist, a violent offender, er racist attack merchant. On to a Category C, given home leave, first thing he does on home leave is go out and kill an Asian man. And in a way er and this is a story I think is gonna develop over the next six months or a year. We're gonna see a lot of this happening cos this talking comes cheap, er crime and the rest of it. We're gonna see a lot of that developing, but anyway that's, that's a digression. But that actually occurred this week and I think we're gonna see more of that. So anyway is the Health Service safe in the Tories' hands? Well for the sake of a few million pounds the Conservatives will slash this area, that area, will say we need to close this unit, that unit. Well in, and there's one or two people here that'll know what I'm talking about, we've had one of our local MPs on a consultancy basis for the Health Clinic, fix up a contract for his own particular company. The District, the er Chairman of the District Health Authority, David, has been involved in this obviously in allocating this contract. And the then Secretary of State for Health, Kenneth Clarke was involved in that his department granted the authorizations. So a million, couple of million pounds has gone in that direction. Of course all three people no doubt innocent parties. All three people are local prominent Tories. All three people went to the High School. And all three people in my opinion are like that. When they get together and they need money, the old school tie, the old party tie comes into play and money can be found for things that they think are profitable for them and their consultancies, and their companies, and their interests. So if we can tighten the screw it's possible to actually get these people in my view to start seeing our interests as well. And I've said this er I've said this in week to the civil service unions, I never did believe in lobbying Parliament. I thought that was all about people feeling they'd had their day in Parliament because there was a Tory majority of a hundred or more. Now, if we can convince enough Tories, often a handful, ten, fifteen, twenty, there is a possibility however faint, that you can change the government's mind. And I think that's where this campaign's got to go next. I think we've got to be serious about it in terms of targeting given individuals, tracking back their history, go back through the bloody files, if there's been anybody been treated. Use everything, everything without shame, to get to those Tory MPs and say, do you know what is happening? Do you know that you, your family, your wife, your grandfather, whoever, wouldn't be able to get this sort of treatment in the hospital they were treated in before. I think we can do that and I think it's important that we do do that. We're fighting a battle against an enemy who has a totally alien philosophy to our to ourselves. They don't even understand the Health Service, they don't want the Health Service. They're flogging bits of land in again in the City of, flogging a piece of land next to the City Hospital for a supermarket. That's the sort of mentality you've got. Where they ask what are your vital signs, they don't mean have you got a pulse or high blood pressure, they mean have you got Access or Visa. They're the vital signs you've got to display before you go and get treated under the new Health Service. This campaign is just in my view really starting to make its mark on the public imagination. I hope that our friends from Central Television and the media, and everybody else working through the East Midlands Region T U C, through UNISON, through the Labour Parties, start to get that campaign really rolling. Let them know you're around and I can say on behalf of the Labour MPs of Nottinghamshire, you'll have our full support. Go to it. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Steve:] Thanks very much.... I wasn't actually gonna say anything but I'd better say a little bit. I've just suddenly realized actually that I'm the only health worker [Ronald:] Yeah. Could I ask a question please? [Steve:] Certainly. [Ronald:] Well, as er having listened to what Graham said against the er... the G Ps and the pharmacists which er they totally agreed with what Graham was saying, what we don't see either in the press or on television, a panel of G Ps and pharmacists condemning the National Health Service and the media don't see that. Why isn't these doctors that are condemning it and the pharmacists and so forth, together on a panel of something and expose it on T V or in the press that they condemn it. And we never see the doctors condemning it, we don't see the pharmacists condemning it either. And I mean the media from their point of view is not getting across. And they're the professionals. So I think we ought to see a little bit more of these doctors and a little more of these pharmacists also backing the National Health Service up er which they should. [Steve:] Er is it a question, do you want an answer? Or [Ronald:] Well it's jus i it was a comment. Sorry, a comment. [Graham:] Can I just?... I mean I think that's a good idea. I think you, the people you know and I said you could apply it to Tory M Ps, God knows if you're gonna get a Tory MP for with their organization, but I'm damn sure you can get G Ps for and you can get pharmacists for or whatever. You can do all the specialities. I'd go, I'd do stars for. You must've had people passing through there, famous people who you can register, get them there, do, do this sort of thing. I mean th... er [speaker002:] I've done that? [Graham:] Oh I'm sorry. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Keep that keep that running in that case because you can't do too much with it. You've gotta keep using that sort of imagination to actually keep seizing people's imagination. I mean I didn't see that so no but I... keep us briefed so with... so we're up to speed on it and keep those little units, that little campaign feeling here, there and everywhere going. Cos that's the only way you're gonna seize the public imagination. If you haven't got the public on your side and there is a lot of emotional support for, if you haven't got the public on your side then the politicians can get away with murder. [Ronald:] Could I co c er comment a, a little further then on that. I'm talking about a pharmacist with a G P that set us. Are these people afraid to expose themselves in a panel condemning the National Health Service or just to sit in the background and make any comments? [Graham:] It's that whole thing about they're never gonna come for me.... [tape change] [Steve:] has been for, that has actually been the case, has been the problems in terms of actually getting nurses to actually come out and doctors and pharmacists to actually come out publicly. Erm and quite understandably to be honest, because the fear of their jobs. I worked at as a nurse and there's, actually there's a lot of pressure going on there as will back up. What I would say is there are instances that have been happening around the country in the last year, where both doctors, G Ps, and nurses have actually said, you're not doing that. You're not closing this hospital, you're not closing these wards. And what's actually happened was the College Hospital. What they did was the nurses and the doctors took over the ward. They said, you're not closing us down. We're running this ward. The patients themselves kept the management out, and the rest of it. And that ward stayed open. There are those possibilities, and that is something that we should be arguing for. But in a sense it's not just the people round this table and the committee should be arguing for this, it's actually the people in this room. It's the people, I mean the people in this room know a great deal more people than I do on my own for example. Or a group of us do on our own. And that is where I think we should actually be pushing. We should actually be pushing saying for those Health Ser Service erm workers and also people in the public who are not doing that, not a case of, we don't want you to and this is a case against it, although that's strong. It's actually saying, we're not prepared to let you close down our hospital and our services any more. [Jeff:] Can I, can I just erm... add a question. Is erm what are they doing? The only thing is what we can do is like everything else. As I said before on Thursday, that the idea is that the people outside there, the public, are the ones that are important. When it comes to an announce the fact that we're gonna have er er council elections,... how many people come out and vote for your councillors and put them in? How many voted... to put, smack the Conservatives, and don't worry about politics I'm just using it as an example, in the face. They came out and they voted. How many come out and vote for the MPs when it comes to, when it comes to the er elections? How many millions come out? Now what we're saying is, this is your hospitals. This is your Health Service. Here here is a petition. Please sign the petition for your, for your Health Service. Get around. Send your letters. How many people are gonna do this out there? Will the B B C, they will do it. Please tell them to get their petitions, not just get down and get millions, like you go out and vote, to protect your Health Service as and your hospitals. [Steve:] I. Got you, George. [Ida:] Yes. Erm I just want to comment and then erm. I represent I think, along with my colleagues here, the you know the pensioners' movement. And there's nobody needs hospital or health treatment more, more than the pensioners. And yet for, for a long time now whether it comes to dental payment, paying for dentists, opticians, now they're talking about prescription charges and, and that sort of thing for not just myself, not just us, but for children as well. We're being attacked on all sides, quite frankly. And as well as the closing of, of, of er certain hospitals. Er I'm one of those people that took a two year... er low pay rise, to put me into the Health Service when my husband was ill. And we had two years with no pay rise. My father was also one of those er people that contributed a penny a week along with about thirty five thousand miners in this area, to pay for. And so is not theirs to give away at all. It's ours even before the National Health Service was brought in. I think one of the problems we face is that the campaign for is coincided with the campaign to save the pits. I think it's suffered from this. You know, because tremendous publicity quite rightly the thing given to the campaign to save the pits. And I'd like to think that you now start to think, not in terms of, in terms of other hospitals, but to get a coordinated campaign throughout the country on this particular issue. Because I mean th there's more teaching hospitals in London going an and right throughout the country. Why cannot we g get the same response on the question of hospital closures er as we did er against pit closures. I'm not saying that you know would successfully we drove back millions of people supporting us that would never support us if you go into one particular matter alone or one particular hospital closure alone. And I think it is so very important that we try to do that. Now the MPs can help in coordinating this. They could play an outstanding role in, in giving the information and coordinating this. Also now that we've got UNISON the one union I think they can help but I do think that's what needs to be done, because they're doing the same with the hospital as, as now doing with the pits even after the closure campaign. And closing them piecemeal, thinking they can get away with one at a time. And I'd like to ask the panel, what possibilities there are of getting a nationwide campaign listing all the hospitals that's under threat? And I think. Listing all and developing this national campaign. [Steve:] Yeah. I'm, I'll go and bring Alan in. To answer that question and that. [Alan:] Health Services. We've actually debated the issue before this week. And the T U C to launch a nationwide campaign probably September October time to tie with the Chancellor's autumn statement, for a mass rally in London for about the time of the autumn statement. We would hope that by doing this we'd actually mobilize the whole country to get down into London and to protest at the House of Commons against the closures in the Health Service. So that's all being looked into [something smashes] Sorry about that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] So we haven in September October there will be a massive rally in London to save our Health Service. Thank you. [Gwen:] I think basically what I'd like to say today is that I personally agree with what Ida's saying that it is an attack on the Health Service, and it is the greatest achievement that the Labour Party has done in history in my opinion. And I believe that the Labour Party should be at the front to save er our Health Service including the holidays er not the holidays, including the hospitals, including er keeping hospitals within the Health Service. And, and I'm against any Trust status which they tend to, to go because I believe that the beginning of our campaign that because was talking last year about Trust status it did alienate a lot of people against and said, why should we bother fighting for a hospital what would go Trust anyway. This er committee is fighting for inside the National Health Service, and I think we should make that clear. That we're not fighting to save a hospital to go Trust. It is to stay within the Health Service. We need more help than we've got. This committee we started, we, we formed a committee some months ago. Erm and... as part of that committee I believe we've not been very successful. Erm we need to get more organized within ourselves, we need more help before we, we actually and er we're talking about petitions on er signa signatures on petitions. We need at least forty thousand signatures before we can even attempt to, to do anything with and get publicity round that. Be because before you can actually present them to Downing Street you need forty thousand signatures at least. We are nowhere near that amount. We need people on the streets collecting signatures, we don't need people to just sign, we need your help in, in, in, in and in areas. And we need a coor coordinating campaign to get those signatures as quickly as possible, so then we can talk about lobbying Parliament, because we can't do it without them. We need a focus point and that, that needs to be it. And for us to go forward that is the first major thing we need to do and I'm appealing today that if people can give us two hours on Saturday morning or a Friday afternoon, we need people, we don't need two people on a street corner cos we've done it and it is... it we don't get the effect we want, because most people walk past us. Cos while you're getting one signature, twenty people walks by you. We want ten and fifteen people stood there in the street, you want their T-shirts on because I have never yet had one person say to me, I won't sign it because I think they should shut. People, no-one wants to see Hospital closed. But it's, we've got to get them motivated and I'm asking today, you know, we need more help and if you can spare a few hours a week it would be more than appreciated. And if you can see Jeff after the meeting I'm sure he, he can take your names and coordinate that. Thank you. [Steve:] I'm going to have to ap apologize er to all the speakers on the platform, who've actually got prior commitments er pretty soon after the speeches... I'll just let Mick speak and then I'm gonna have to close the meeting. But erm obviously what Gwen said I think we all, we all back up. If we don't get, if we don't, literally don't get the bodies on the street we don't get... we're not gonna, win we're gonna lose. [speaker002:] Well first of all I'd like to [sneeze] on behalf of the National Union of Mineworkers and offer the full support from the N U M. I was invited to touch on the historical links between and the mining industry of this area. It's given miners a lot of service over the years and eased a lot of the er distress of the at work. Regardless of the pit closure programme ta erm we're in full flight erm at the end of the day we could be looking at a situation with four pits remaining in Nottinghamshire er and to that extent there'll be up to four thousand miners still reliant on the services of, should er remain open. And er th there will be an increase the ra accident rates that are orthopaedic related er inside the remainder of the pits because we're now seeing the drift towards er longer working hours, more time at the coal face. And even before the pit closure programme started with the increased competition that was taking place inside the mines, the increased productivity... erm we've seen a steady rise in the number of back accidents, erm you know spinal erm related accidents. So miners in Nottinghamshire still require the services that operated in the past. I'd just like to offer this erm message to Graham back to, to the House of Commons. It weren't so long back that er John Major, when talking about er benefit, was quite surprised by the fact that er disabled erm claimants had rose by, well it had quad quadrupled in inside the Thatcher years. I mean it comes as no surprise to me er because of the lack of Health and Safety provision inside the work places and people that remain in work, erm being subjected to longer working hours er inside the industry. And that's certainly the case inside the mining industry. Erm but er going back to again, erm because er they're analyzing now erm all benefits so they can reduce the. When you know what we should be saying to John Major and employers is that it isn't any surprise that er disablement er has increased over the last thirteen, fourteen years. And er one of the reasons for that is because of the lack of orthopaedic provision being provided and erm th the closure of our oldest part of that. And the claimants will, will carry on rising while they k keep closing hospitals of this nature. So I think we can project the closure of and orthopaedic hospitals of this nature into that debate about er new benefits and why, why we, why the Tories are suddenly surprised by the number of claimants. [Steve:] All I can say is thank you all for coming. Erm please give a bit more of the just support we need, we literally, we do need bodies, we do need people to actually come along. We, we'll meet about once a fortnight er we can actually let people know if er if all you leave names and phone numbers [something falls] or whatever. the campaign next Friday is it? [speaker002:] Next Friday, in? [Steve:] In here at seven o'clock next Friday is our next meeting. And it's not designed to be a public meeting for anybody that come along and gives support and help would be more than welcome. Thank you again for all coming. Thank you.

[speaker001:] Mr can you tell us about er work? Did you get a job as soon as you left school? [speaker002:] Yeah.... Er [cough] I'd be fourteen in the June and we used to have to keep on till the end of the term which was August. And we have four weeks' holiday at August. And when we broke up I, I said, er well that's it now. We all... the lads that left at the same time, said, we've got four weeks' holiday before we look for work. So that was alright till we got home. [LAUGHTER] And I said to the old man I says, er well that's it now. I said, I've got four weeks. he said, you bloody haven't, he says, you're gonna look for work. I said, I've, I've got four weeks' holiday before. [LAUGHTER] He says, you're gonna look for work. He was out of work. He couldn't get. So er we used to go through the motions and er after about er three weeks I think it was, no, yeah, two or three weeks anyway. We were going round actually looking for work, not ve very keen but we were, we were looking for it. We'd go to Boots, walk, Boots, and we'd start in, in the meadows in, in, in Street. Then we'd walk up to Boots up Road. We'd walk through the lace market, we'd walk up to, and then we'd walk round to. All in the day. No buses, no bus fare, no nothing. Er any vacancies? No, sorry. Any vacancies? No. It was half-hearted. E eventually I did get a job. In, in Street, just a couple minutes from, from my home. And they said I, I could be an apprentice fitter. And the wages were seven and thruppence a week. So I went home quite pleased, gonna learn a trade, to be a fitter. Quite pleased, went home and er told my dad, I says er I says, I've got a job. He said, good, where at? I said,. He said, what you're gonna do at it? I says, it's er apprentice fitter. He says, how much is a week? And I says, seven and three. He said, that's no good. He says, you can get ten and thruppence at. Good lot of the lads in used to li work at. So he said, you can go and try. [LAUGHTER] And so [] I went there and they er I eventually got on. At ten and thruppence a week. And that was in the splitting job where you was handling skins, sheep skins. And with the lime and the chemicals that makes your fingers sore, what are called birds eyes. That red raw. You could you couldn't bear them a night time. And you used to wear er er leather... I've still got a skin. This or someone else's sister would be... they used to give you this to make your. You cut a, a piece out and you'd sew it up, like that you see.... That, that sort of thing... er you used to wear them to protect, to protect your fingers cos it used to get red raw if you didn't. Anyway I started there, I got the ten and three a week and er eventually not very good, at that time quite a lot of short time. And they didn't have three days on and three days off, you used to go in this particular shop at eight o'clock and maybe finish at half past ten or eleven o'clock because there was no more skins coming through. [speaker001:] And what exactly were you doing? Wh what exactly was your job? [speaker002:] Splitting. splitting shop. Now that's a sheep skin. You see or it was. [LAUGHTER] The splitting machine, that's one half of a sheep skin, that's the outside. Now the splitting machine used to cut that skin down there like that. [speaker001:] Cut it in half then? [speaker002:] Split it in two. So you got two skins. Now one half, this would maybe go for... clothes, er coats, or. And the other half used to go as a window leather which are called... st... [speaker001:] Chamois... Chamois [speaker002:] Chamois leather, that's it. Mm. And so you got th two skins out of, out of one sheep. Er one would go one process and another would go the other. Er that was the splitting shop. There was all sorts of processes before it got to that and after it got to that stage. Er [speaker001:] And what exactly was your job in the splitting shop then? [speaker002:] Well I worked with a man, on a machine. And a we used to get the skin, I used to pick the skin up. Give him one part, now you hold that, I used to hook it on to a roller, tuck it over, pull it through and then you've got it lined up hooked on to a roller. And then he used to bring the knife, there was a knife going like that, a big knife, One about four foot. And th this knife was going like this and the roller was pulling the skin round. And it was pulling, the one that you'd hooked on was pulling that one and the other one going out the back. So you, you, you, that was splitting. [speaker001:] Now [cough] do you actually remember going to work, the first day you were, you were going to work? [speaker002:] The first day yeah, short trousers. Er... the first day I didn't stay dinner. home but it was only a few yards anyway from. So eventually we, I, I, I used to get er couple slices of bread, and I used to get thruppence every day. Now I, I'd got all sorts of alternatives to buy. had a pork shop in Street. we'd have a choice of three pennyworth of which were a, which was a big chunk, three pennyworth of, brawn, potted meats, er [whispering] what else is there []?... Three pennyworth of corned beef, er and then you, you, you could go down on to the fish and chip shop in Street. And get er three hap'orth of chips, three hap'orth of fish bits. Which was a good meal, substantial meal you know for thruppence. [speaker001:] Now... from being at school, enjoying yourself and enjoying yourself, and, and going to work, did you feel differently? [speaker002:] Feel? [speaker001:] Did you feel differently with working? [speaker002:] No I don't think so. [speaker001:] Did you enjoy work? [speaker002:] Yeah. Funny thing, I've, I've enjoyed every job I've done. And I mean that. Er the splitting shop wasn't, wasn't particularly good I, I'd say. But you were glad to get a job, that were the thing. That made you pleased. But once I got out of the splitting shop out into the dry, handling leather rather than skins, er it were terrific, absolutely terrific. I were in a buffing shop. And the buffing shop used to er get buff that side, make it smooth you know. [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] Then I went glazing. [speaker001:] How much of a difference to your family did it make that you were working, financially? [speaker002:] Well. When I went home a when I was started at ten and thruppence a week, it was a regula regulation in the family that the spending money erm... basis, what you got for spending, was a penny in the shilling. Now I earned ten and thruppence, used to take the ten and thruppence home and I used to get tenpence ha'penny spending money. Weren't eleven pence, weren't ten pence, weren't a shilling, tenpence ha'penny. And that was it. Then that went when you're fifteen, I was fifteen I were getting twelve and six. Same again, one shilling and a ha'penny. Not one and a penny, not a shilling. Till I was er... I went, I left and went to gun factory. Er. And then when I was eighteen... er eighteen, yeah, started paying my board then. Pound a week. [speaker001:] Er while you were working did you still try and get sort of like odds and ends and little bits of money? [speaker002:] Yeah,wh when you was on short time, ooh yeah. We used to, I've sold card of the match, at, at cricket matches. I've sold cushions at the cricket matches. Quite a few of us from used to go down to cricket match. And motors, when, football mat and reserve matches at, we used to, there were one or two, weren't many cars about then you see. But there was a few. And we could look after cars at the er reserve matches. [speaker001:] Now wh while you were working,w w was your father working at this time? [speaker002:] No not very often. Very seldom. He did work on er County er Stand, the one that's still there. He, he, he, he did a f a few jobs and, and, and they were nearly all temporary. They didn't last long. Most all, all labouring jobs. And none of them last long you know. You couldn't get a regular job, or he couldn't anyway. [speaker001:] And erm did your mother work or was she bringing up the family? [speaker002:] My mother used to er whe when we were younger used to come down the for a days' scrubbing, charring. Er she did one or two jobs there. Well, er [speaker001:] Was there a lot of erm drinking used to go on in the, in the, in the area at the time? [speaker002:] Well... you take, to hear, to hear them talk you, you'd think everybody were drunk every night but it wasn't so. Er I've known... er one bloke he, he'd send for a pint of Shipstons beer... when it was sixpence a pint, and then he'd send for another pint and he'd be drunk, or, or he'd be ready f to fight anybody that wanted to fight him. And there usually was somebody ready to [LAUGHTER] fight him for twelve, especially on a Saturday night []. Now Saturday night in Street, we used to call it the waits, Street waits, every Saturday night. You could guarantee that if you waited top of one of those yards that somebody would be fighting or wanted to fight or a window could get broken or, or either men or women. Men and women, they'd just fight each other but women used to have a go,ar argue not f particularly fighting but you know falling out. And, and the men they of often used to have a go. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] And the lads []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Did you have any real characters in th in the? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yeah. I'm not going to name them because of the family, they're dead now. Oh yes, there was one er, he had a knighthood. Er people who, who er who lived do th they'll know, and then the family will know. Cos he, he was Sir, you know. [LAUGHTER] Oh and there was er [speaker001:] Why did they used to call him Sir? [speaker002:] Well he, he, he used to go to er... used to go to the British Legion, every Sunday morning. Now he, he had about... he about seven or eight kids I think, he must have done, yeah. Two, three, four, five,, yeah. And in the week, I don't think he was working at the time, but on a Sunday morning he'd walk out of that terrace house and er he'd be immaculate, absolutely. He'd have a walking stick, he'd have a buttonhole, a top hat and a stiff collar, and he'd swing this cane and walk up the street. There goes Sir... yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What reputation did the have with other areas at the time? Was it seen as being a rough place? [speaker002:] Did it what? [speaker001:] What reputation did the have with other areas of at the time? Was it thought to be rough by everyone else? [speaker002:] Oh yes, we had a reputation. Er I'd a lad, a Street,,, that's what it, they used to call us. Er yeah, well you know we were rough because, but I mean if we got into a fight, there we there were no gang warfare. There was a gang of us, but I mean er if one of us got involved with a fight it was him and him. And we used to stand down and leave it at that. No nobody'd interfere. You know, it was a fair fight, there were no kicking. We'd just fight and that was it. and I suppose, I, I well I, I used to go about with a gang but we, we never raided anybody. You know, you, you used to talk about raids and er a black hand gang and all this sort of thing, but we no. If there was any trouble we, we'd fight but one on one. Wouldn't gang up four onto one, five onto one, and, and mugging and noth nothing, none, none of that nonsense. [speaker001:] How long wer were you actually at then? [speaker002:] Well I started at fourteen and I, I had to leave er when I was fifteen and, no, nearly sixteen. And then I went back at er eighteen until I were twenty, twenty three I think it was. [speaker001:] Now why did you leave first time? [speaker002:] Got a short time. were only working half days. [speaker001:] And where did you go? And what did you do there? [speaker002:] I started painting and then I went to be rivet hotter. And then I was rive riveter's mate. I really enjoyed that. Really enjoyed it. [speaker001:] Was it... what was the differences that you noticed between and? What, what [speaker002:] Different what? [speaker001:] What, what, what were the big differences between the two? [speaker002:] Well it, it were the variety you got at. You see, er there, there was a riveter, and a holder up, his mate, and a rivet hotter. That's yo that was the team. Now we, we used to build the frame of a coach, Sentinel er Passenger Coach. We used to build all the frame and the roof, riveted, no fitted. Er bolt it together first, and then rivet it after. So all, all the time th th there were different job. Different size rivets, different lengths, and I, while I were hotting hotting I knew where, eventually knew where, what size rivet to put in a certain place. And you used to get them hot ready for, for the rivet for the riveters. And then we'd get onto the roof with the little tiny rivets, quarter inch rivets. And maybe an hour after we'd be on three quarter rivets. Or five eighths or half inch, so you got the variety as well and different jobs to do all day long. [speaker001:] And wh why did you leave there? [speaker002:] Well it closed down. [speaker001:] And... how, how did you get back into then? [speaker002:] Well er my mother went down the yard, I won't tell you about the other, sister. My mother went down the yard and seen the boss and asked him if he could get and the fact that my mother went down the yard I suppose er... he must have felt sorry for us. Anyway I got back and er [speaker001:] Was it the same wages? [speaker002:] On no, I was older then you see, I was er... I was, they sent me straight back into the splitting shop. And within er a week I was told to go into the dry part, handling, in the buffing shop. Er and then I was on my own time in the buffing shop, and I was getting a man's wages. [speaker001:] So what, what were you coming out with then? [speaker002:] Mm? [speaker001:] What, what were you getting then? [speaker002:] Er... let's see er, around about... [whispering] thirty shillings [] about thirty, thirty five bob a week. Which were good money for a single fella. [speaker001:] Erm... now you said you went away, you lived away from home for a bit, when you when you were eight [speaker002:] Mm? [speaker001:] Did you say you lived away from home for a bit? [speaker002:] Yeah, when I were eighteen. [speaker001:] Now [cough]... erm... you were saying bef was there a union at the at the time? [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] What you, what you [speaker003:] There wasn't. You, you lost your job trying to start one. [speaker002:] No th there was a union we were trying to enrol more members. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker002:] Oh the union was there, the Amalgamated Society of Leather Workers. It was a national union, but it was a crime more or less with some bosses to belong to a trade union. Now it's a crime if you don't belong to a trade union. You see, I think, although I can't prove this, you see what happened, when I was in the, in the glazing shop we were, we were on short time. And instead of er having half day every day cos there were no prospects of, of much stuff coming through, they'd say well we'll all have two weeks off each. Two men will have two weeks off and it were twelve in the shop. So two would be off for a fortnight, and then two more and then two more. Now [cough] the fella that I worked with was the president of the union from the branch.... And I was er doing my part I thought to change the world and get everybody into the union so we could get, get better conditions for, for everybody and all this, more money anyhow. Er... and I used to go to night school to learn, er National Council of Labour Colleges, to learn economics. Er and eventually we changed the foreman, [LAUGHTER] the union changed the foreman. And the foreman er we used to play about, lark about, throw orange peel at each other you know, cos it were a boring job you just stand like this and you could more or less close your eyes, you know. After a while so to, to relieve the boredom we used to throw orange peel at each other, little bits you know, screw it up and, and one hit this bloke who was made foreman before, before he was made foreman a and we had a fight. He come at me and he was six foot two and he come he were gonna knock hell out of me so I had to protect myself and we got fighting in the shop. Anyway we, we forgot about it and, and then he was made foreman later. So I thought well that's. Anyway when the time came to, to, to stop off for short time everybody had had their turn except the union president and myself and he came to me this foreman and he said er, now John I don't want you to think what happened between me and you will make any difference about being sent back for. I said, well I hope not anyway, I says er, if you do I shall have a go at you. So er time went on, I didn't get the sack, I just wasn't sent back for. Neither was the union man. [speaker001:] Now how did you become involved with the union? Are you [speaker002:] Well [speaker001:] always interested in politics? [speaker002:] No, no. I went in this shop with this, next to this fella. And when I hear that, when you're working you're talking as well and he, he, he was a good talker and, and he, you know, he was a good union, a good clever speaker and he impressed me. Er and then he got me he er... he got me interested in politics and he got me going to this N C L C evening [cough] evening classes. And I got interested and you know it wer I was parti very very interested in, in economics. [speaker001:] And did you become a union represent did you get involved in union politics? [speaker002:] Oh yes I I was on the committee at. Er I was on the committee on the buses, but that was later. I was a rotor man for Bridge Depot.... Er yes I was very keen, I'm very interested. Er [speaker001:] What... did your family and do your friends have views about politics? I means did they, were they surprised you become involved? [speaker002:] Yes er I remember a chap at the depot doing the Spanish Civil War er... wh th there was a movement going round collecting food for the, or money for food for the children of Spain. Children. And I was in the depot and I and I was er trying to er get some money for, for this thing or, or doing something for it anyway, and this bloke said, said John, he said, what the bloody hell are you got interested in the people of Spain for? We're talking about nineteen thirty six now thirty seven. I said, well, I said, If we don't those bombers in and, and Spain we're gonna get them over here. I didn't realize what I was saying but it proved to be true. Those bombers in, in bombing the people of Spain bombed us eventually. Anyway er that was the, er no nobody else made any comment, one or two was s s surprised. You know that I should be interested, well I was the secretary of Labour Party for a time. [speaker001:] Whe when you started off becoming interested in politics when you were working at,we were your friends surprised? Were they not interested in politics or, or your family? [speaker002:] No, no, you see it's the fact that you're working, your conditions, your environment, if you're working in a certain place it's almost built up in the beginning. It wasn't till, till people got together into factories and, and er workshops and, and things like that. And working in close relation and discussing things that this is exactly what happened at. Now i i in one shop er you'll never hear mention of politics, it would be all football, football man, football this, football the other. But if you get involved working with somebody else who may be interested in politics then you start talking and this is how it develops. I mean er... you see th I should say there was about six or seven who were keen on, on, on the trade union. They weren't reds, communists, or anything like that, they were just good trade union men. And they'd be talking, now you could bet they could get somebody interested in that shop on, on politics or trade unionism, they'd get one in that shop. [speaker001:] Now erm... was it through this union activity you became interested in the Labour Party? [speaker002:] It's same thing, same man. [speaker001:] I see, and did you, did you do a lot of canvassing for them and all this sort of thing? [speaker002:] At election time oh yeah. [speaker001:] Have you got any stories about that? [speaker002:] Er well I were out of work and er... municipal elections used to come in November. Er and er there were great rivalry between, between the Con er the Conservatives and the er Labour Party. And er apart from canvassing which we did. A canvass, cos I was a block steward, I used to collect the, the stubs and at election time we would do a canvass of our own block. Er asking people whether they were favourable, or mark them favourable or not favourable and so on. Er and then w we used to do the bill posting, vote for so and so, or vote for so and so. We used to stick ours up and if we see any fresh blue ones we should pull them down. Er and they used to do the same to ours. Er then election day we were out all day with, with a driver of a car getting people out and for them or going through the motions. I've looked after the kids for them while they've gone to vote, anything to get them here, that was the thing. Cos they, they er Walter used to say, any positive voters we must get them out on the day. [speaker001:] And apart from that time during er elections etcetera how much involvement would you have just a normal we week, where there's no elections on or anything? Did you have meetings very often? [speaker002:] Er well yes at er there were several er Michael Foot, Fenner Brockway, Stafford Cripps and Jimmy Maxton and Harley Pollet and Jimmy Gallagher. There was communists, there was I M Ps, there were Labour Party men, and at that time there was a unity campaign. Er it were led by Sir Stafford Cripps and er Michael Foot. Fenner Brockway, well I, I've gone to meetings in the Albert Hall, and I've gone to meetings at Sheffield. I, I joined the er demonstration in Hyde Park. Er when the Durham Jarrow marchers came Er we was there for the er when they came in. Er were several meetings, public meetings. Oswald Mosely, he was in the Albert Hall when, when all that trouble was, we were together then weren't we? At er Oswald Mosely [speaker003:] you you used to go the weekly meetings the Labour Party. [speaker002:] the month [speaker003:] That's what that's what you're talking about isn't it, the weekly meetings? [speaker002:] [sigh] Monthly, monthly meetings. [speaker003:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Monthly meetings. [speaker003:] Monthly meetings [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] you used to go to [speaker002:] Oh yeah it was a monthly meeting. [speaker001:] Could you tell us about Oswald Mosely, and s and wh what happened then? [speaker002:] Well er... first of all you'd get the minutes of the last meeting and then you, you'd get correspondence and then you'd get chairman's remarks. And then somebody would bring something up. It may be the pro prospective candidate or panel name to go forward on a prospective candidate or something like that er and then there'd be er a talk by, by the chairman about the finances or what we ought to do er to organize er... events to improve the finances. It was all about money or you know there wasn't a great deal of political activity or, or great deal of political work done in, in the Labour Party. It was all done er er... the borough Labour Party. Now you got, you got, you got your war ward which was nothing because the wards was er the chairman and the secretary absolutely. You know, er er and they'd tell people and, and there was no, never much debating as such. What you laughing at? [speaker001:] Nothing. go on. [speaker003:] He er he asked you about er wh who was it? [speaker001:] Mosely, did you say that you went to see Mosely in a meeting? [speaker002:] We went to a public meeting at the Albert Hall, me and her, when Sir Oswald Mosely came to. Er and a lot got chucked out. [speaker001:] When was this? [speaker002:] Ooh nineteen thirty six or seven. [speaker001:] And was he, go on. [speaker002:] Before we was married. Thirty six or seven. Thirty six. And we, we was up in the, in the, it was a protest as far as I was concerned. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know and we went and we booed and [LAUGHTER] er a lot got thrown out, cos he had his mobsters there you know. And er he were a bit rough with them and all. Ah. [speaker001:] Was there a lot of trouble then? [speaker002:] Wasn't a great deal of trouble in but th there was in the East End of London if you, if you we can read, can read about that. Er and in several places where he did go because he, he, his supporters were thugs really. You know there were no doubt about that, they were [speaker001:] And how much, how much were your subs for the Labour Party, how much was your membership? [speaker002:] Ooh er wasn't er... I can't remember now. I think it was er wasn't a great dea sixpence I think it was. [speaker001:] And when did you join the Labour Party? [speaker002:] Ooh... I'd be ninetee er twent I'd be twenty so nineteen thirty three. [speaker001:] And, and were there sort of like clubs and societies associated with the Labour Party that, that you got involv [speaker002:] No, no, no, no. No, the Labour Party as far as I was concerned was just a meeting, a monthly meeting,in above the Co-op in Grove. Where the Co-op used to be, not the Co-op now. In that room up there, once a month, and at elections times and that was it, no more. [speaker001:] I see. Now, now [cough] you were saying before [cough] your father er was unemployed quite a lot of the time during your childhood erm did he actually get any Unemployment Benefit while he was on the dole? [speaker002:] Yes er, now what did get?... There were U A B, Unemployment Assistant Board and there was a means test at the time as well. Er... when I was s I used to get eight shilling at one time Unemployment Benefit.... And you'd got to go and look for work. And you, you'd got to tell them that you'd been, where you'd got, where you'd been. You know. Er... [speaker003:] Did you know how much your dad got? [speaker002:] No.... No no no not can't remember now, not to be sure. [speaker001:] Would the... what exactly was the means test invo what did that involve? Did they come and visit your house? [speaker002:] No you, you, you were called to, to the Labour Exchange. Er I think a court of referees I think they called it. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Wasn't it? [speaker003:] Ah. Yeah. [speaker002:] That that just come to me now. Court of referees. [speaker003:] You didn't get money did you? You got food, food tickets. [speaker002:] Ah ye yeah it, it depends how [speaker003:] You didn't get money. [speaker002:] how much er... you'd got and how much you'd got coming in and how much you'd, you'd you know, your, what your erm... commitments were and [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] you know. Er [speaker001:] Did, did you at the time or in the thirties did you have any involvement with the Unemployment Claims Union or anything like that? [speaker002:] I didn't. No [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] not myself, no. [speaker001:] Were other people involved in with it? [speaker002:] Oh well there must have been. Must have been. [speaker003:] Yeah, but er didn't you go to an Unemployment School? [speaker002:] Eh? [speaker003:] An Unemployment School. [speaker002:] A club, an unemployment club. [speaker001:] What, what was that? [speaker002:] Well it was a place on Street, and it's still there, that one. It's above, above the shop, just above, up the stairs. And there was a big room and you and you could go there and, and make things out of wood. I've got a table somewhere I've made. Er or you could make anything and there was an instructor there showing you. You'd got the tools and different things and show you how to use them. You, you paid for it. [speaker003:] Yeah, but didn't you have to go there to get your dole? [speaker002:] Oh no, no, no that was that was a school. [speaker003:] Ah that's the one I'm thinking about. [speaker002:] Ah that's Street. Now when we was between sixteen and eighteen if you was unemployed you'd got to go to school. Half day every day.... One week you'd go in the mornings, the next day you'd go in the afternoon. This was at Street Lad's Club, still there. Now but we had teachers, the headmaster of Street School, he was the head teacher at the out of work school. And then we had a, a two one teacher who, who later was at School., Mr, er and he'd give us sums, arithmetic, tell us stories, er historical events or something like that. But what we were keen about was football. One teacher, he used to say, well what we gonna do today? Oh come on, let's go down Lane and have a game of football. you see. He used to play with us as well. We used to go, it's a nice day Mr, I go down, football. Come on then, and we, we'd walk down to Lane and play our game of football.... [break in recording] But you'd got to go, and you'd got to mark your register and, and if you didn't go you'd lose a day's dole. [speaker001:] At tha at this time in, in the twenties and early thirties was there a lot of people unemployed in, in Street and around there? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yes. Er there were very very few that had a regular job, really. Er c c the density of, of the Street itself er cos you was nine terraces with twenty four houses in, in two hundred yards you've got a lot of people together haven't you? Er and, and the people that had a regular job, now there was one next door to us. He, he, he was er more or less well off, still in, in Terrace but you know he was, they seemed to be well off and probably were. Cos he had good regular job at. But er now in, in, in our yard, on our, our side, there'd, there would be er... one, two three, four... only four out of the twelve or thirteen houses the, the men had a regular job. And that was pretty, it was, it'd vary in, in some cases but in som it was worse than that and some were better than that, but generally speaking there were a lot of unemployment. [speaker003:] Tell him about. [speaker002:] What... [speaker003:] He'd come and borrow [speaker002:] In, in, in, in one terrace and I'm not gonna mention names again because the, the family's still around, you know, and I don't want to embarrass them. But we'd to go down th one yard and, and in the middle of the yard there was a gap between the lavatories and, and the coal houses, just about er four foot s square. Well that's where we used to play cards, on top of the dustbin. A dustbin lid and put a board over it you know. And this man he was a regular dustbin, dustbin man and he'd been at it all his life and he used to play cards with us and his family, his sons, and, and as many else as got any money to play pontoon or brag. And because he wa he was really the only one that was in regular work in, in the yard, I'm sorry well there was another one but still, there wasn't many, everybody was short of something some day. And it would always come at weekends. And it would always come when we were playing cards. First one, Mrs so and so, me mam says, it was always me mam says, mam says can you lend her cup of sugar? Er mam said, can you tell her time please? Mam said, have you got a penny for the gas? Mam says, have you got a tub of vinegar? Or, or anything, you know so this er man one day he says, we were playing cards, he said, I'm bloody fed up with this. He said now what do they want? So me mam says so he went in the house and says his, his wife's name, he said, give me a pencil and paper. He got a sheet of paper about that long... to all concerned we have no salt, pepper, mustard, vinegar, our clock does not keep good time, er [speaker003:] Sugar. [speaker002:] oh tea, sugar. He, he put all down and he, he pinned it on the [LAUGHTER] back on the back door [] [speaker001:] Did, did a lot of this helping of each other go on? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes. People er I mean th they couldn't help a lot because they'd got nothing themselves a lot of them but there was a lot of help done without any fuss or bother, I mean er er a bloke'd say er, have you got a fag? Er well I've only got Silk Cut. okay. Now to get in a pub, that was another thing. Of many, in summertime we always used to stand at the top of the yards, you know, men and women. Men used to be down on haunches you know and the and the women stand there arms folded gassing, gassing away. Er and then somebody'd come along and say, are you Jack? Can't. Why? I haven't got a lap latch lifter. Couldn't get in the pub because he hadn't got a latch lifter. Now a la latch lifter was thruppence, his first half pint. Now once he got in for his half, half pint in, in the in the passage he'd have, he'd have a good swig and, and it was about when he'd got to bottom of the glass put it down. I say what did you do that for? Well it holding it in pawn, waiting for somebody to ask him to have a drink, and invariably somebody would but if they did ask him they'd always ask him back next time you know if they couldn't do it this time. That, that was the, you know there was that sort of spirit, there were very few scroungers er well there were scroungers of course but few people who er who didn't repay if, if they had a drink they bought one back. They'd say, are you coming in? No I can't buy you one back. That don't matter now. And they wouldn't go in if they couldn't buy one back. There were a lot of that sort of thing. Oh yeah.... [break in recording] [speaker001:] Right Mr could you tell me when and where you were born? [speaker002:] When and where? I was born on June the eighth nineteen thirteen in an place called in Carmarthenshire, South Wales. [speaker001:] And how big was the family at the time? [speaker002:] Well my... my mother had five children with her previous husband and my father met my mother while this fella was ill and he eventually died with T B and my father married my mother and took on these five children i in, in South Wales. [speaker001:] And were you the first born? [speaker002:] I was the first of the. [speaker001:] And how large eventually did the family get to? [speaker002:] Let's see there was er Nelly, Edna, Tommy, Edward, and Donald. Five er ten, ten eleven. Nelly, Tommy, Nelly, Edna, Donald, Edward, Eunice... that's seven isn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Twelve. [speaker001:] Now... could you tell us about... how it came about that you moved to? [speaker002:] Mm.... Oh after the war, the Fi First World War, my father was er sent home wounded in nineteen eighteen or nineteen nineteen. And he was a wounded pensioner er and he, he applied for a grant which you, which er a wounded soldier in the First World War could get if you had a pension he could get a grant of that pension to learn a trade. And he could also apply to go to and take a course of, of instruction on or a trade to learn a trade. And it he went to College. And he did the course and after he'd finished the course he found a house up Road and er sent for the family. So my mother brought us all to on the train and er I was at that time about let's see nineteen thirty twenty I think I was eight years of age then. [speaker001:] I see and how long did you live there up Road? [speaker002:] Er not very long because he er he started a business and er and he didn't do ever so well cos times were bad in the twenties you know as you know. And er the rent was twenty one shillings at that time which was rather a lot for a council house so we had, had an exchange down to Street in the where the rent was about seven and six which was a big difference. [speaker001:] Now the has changed a lot recently Mr. Could you describe what it was like when you first moved there, the area itself? [speaker002:] Yeah, well take er there were some good patches in the you know, there were some quite decent houses and some very nice people. But there were some like me I suppose on the other side. Er now t take, take a, take one street er we'll say Street. It were known as Park. Now that, that Street with, with, from two hundred yards of it there'd be nine, nine terraces each with twenty four houses in each terrace within this two hundred yards so there were a lot of people closely knit together and er there was quite a lot of unem unemployment, quite a lot of poverty. Yet people were friendly, you know. They'd do anything for you within reason you know. Er they'd help each other, if they were sick er well let's say quite a lot were unemployed down there and there were always someone that, I've seen men stand at top of yard and say, have you got a fag Jack? He say, well I've o I've only got two and he'd, he'd break a Woodbine in half and they'd have half each. And instead of having a few puffs and, and saving and throwing two dog ends away you didn't see that, they'd just break it in half and have half each. [speaker001:] Now you were saying just then that erm parts of the were different than the other parts. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] In what way? [speaker002:] Well there seemed to be like er Grove, er... Road, Road, it, it seemed a bit better off you know. They seemed to have more money. Er well I suppose it's the same nowadays you know isn't it? And on the estates sort of people, there were different ty types of people but Street would ha ha had a name. [LAUGHTER] Yeah there were a few characters down there. Er well I'm not gonna mention their names now but er quite a few characters, believe me. Er I were telling you about the pianos, in one particular terrace you could just imagine it in, what, nineteen er twenty si no, twenty seven twenty eight, and you know things were bad, you talk about the thirties, the twenties were worse than that. I've seen th this fella came down and he was selling pianos and er he went down this particular terrace and he must have sold seven, eight, or nine or ten on, on both sides. At one and six a week. And the, the price was thirty nine pounds and as far as I know at the time the, the pianos went down that terrace I don't think anybody could play it properly. They'd, they'd all have a little bash, one or two fingers you know, I did even on, on, on one particular one. Er but nobody could really play the piano yet they all bought them. And eventually there was quite a few went back before they were paid for. Er at th [speaker001:] M Mr er could you tell us about your sch where did you go to school? [speaker002:] Road. [speaker001:] And how old were you when you, when you first went? [speaker002:] Road School, no sorry, Road. Road School I'd be ten I should think, nine or ten. Aye. I wasn't there very long cos I only went in one class in Road School. Then we moved to the and then I went to Road School, which I finished my time there, fourteen. I left at fourteen. [speaker001:] Now can you remember what you were taught at school, the curriculum? [speaker002:] Yes. Hist well it'd be first of all it was er an hour of religion, where the headmaster used to have us all together, all the classes together. And, and sing hymns and maybe have er a lesson or two on one particular part of the bible. And after that you'd go to your own classes and you had a, a set... er what did they call it? Set er programme where you had er maybe an hour's arithmetic. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and so on, do so many sums a day, each lesson. And after that you'd maybe have er well be playtime then. And about ten minutes playtime running round the yard, come back and maybe have a history lesson. Er maybe half and hour history and half an hour geography and er science er... but it were all ele very elementary stuff. Er [LAUGHTER] wasn't nothing technical, you know. [speaker001:] Was the discipline very strong in the school? [speaker002:] Oh yes, very strong. One man in particular er again I won't mention his name but anybody that went to Road School'll know who I, I mean when I say that if you did anything wrong he'd call you out and ask you something and if you, if you like [cough] pupils used to be a bit shy and, and not speak to him he'd slap you across the face. I mean slap not just sideways with his hand and then he'd give you the strap after that. Er one case I know [cough] he, he's so well known amongst the old lads er he used to give you so many sums to do each day and I think it was four or five long division. And when you're learning them, you know it's alright now but when you're learning it's very difficult. It was to me. So you used to take these five sums out to be marked and he'd put right, tick, right, wrong, right, you know. And he said to me, he'd marked my, my sum and, and as it happened they was right, all of them. So whether he didn't believe that I, I'd [LAUGHTER] got them right or not I don't know but the answers were there []. And then he picked one particular line out he said, where did you get this figure from? Now as you know when we used to do the sums we used to have a little bit of paper and, and work it out on this separate bit of paper, but he said to me out of the blue he said, where did it, how did you get that figure? Well at that particular time I couldn't tell him. I says er, I don't know Sir. never went to me spare bit of paper probably eventually but he hadn't got time for that. So I said, I don't know, sir. He looked at me, he said, you've copied, haven't you? I said, no Sir. Because the bloke next to me used to give cakes to [LAUGHTER] to copy off me []. Anyway er he says, you co I said, no sir. So he, he slapped me across the face. He said, you've copied, haven't you? I said, no sir. He said,, he got the strap out of the desk, about three or four, you must know what a strap is don't you? One, come on, hold it up, two, three on that hand, three on this hand. Six straps and a slap across the face and I hadn't copied. And when he'd s finished he said, you've copied, haven't you? I said, no sir. And he, he said, go on. Oh it was, it, if you did anything wrong especially with that fella you, you were, you were a. Oh yes, there were no er there was no er no nonsense, I mean you wouldn't dare answer the teacher back like they did now and call them by their christian names. We wouldn't dare do that, we wouldn't think of doing that. [speaker001:] Did you have any favourite subjects at school? [speaker002:] Yeah, geography. Yeah, I was always well er in that particular class from that I was always either the top of the second or the third at geography. [speaker001:] Now did you want the s did you ever have the chance to stay on at school? [speaker002:] No I didn't even get a chance to, to sit the eleven plus. I wasn't allowed to s sit for the eleven plus. [speaker001:] Well why was that? [speaker002:] My father said I'd got to leave school at fourteen. [speaker001:] And would you have wanted to stay on? [speaker002:] Mm I don't think so I, I wasn't er, I were all for looking for a, going to work, you know. I wanted to go to work, I I didn't want to stay at school. [speaker001:] Can you remember when you were at school what sort of games you used to play? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, cricket, football, er sometimes rounders, swimming, snubs, rum-stick-a-bum, tin-lurky. [speaker001:] Could you explain what those last three were? Snubs etcetera. [speaker002:] Five stones they call it, you know. Snubs you know what I mean don't you? They had the five cubes and you chuck them on back of your hand and eight dobs, nine er nine flies, ten and you know. Er rum- stick-a-bum [speaker001:] What's that? [speaker002:] Well that was one would stand against the wall and about four would get down like that and you had a team say of five. And you'd say, Rum- stick-a-bum here I come, and you'd run and hop onto and get on as far a onto these backs as you could. And you'd all got to get on, and stay on for a little while without touching the floor, then you could have another go. And then we'd tin-lurky er you, you, you'd get a tin, you don't, you know tin-lurky? [speaker001:] Go on, go on. [speaker002:] You, you get a tin er and whoever's sort of looking after the tin, er somebody kicks it, one'll kick the tin and then you all go and hide, and he has to find you before you can come back and kick the tin. So [LAUGHTER] while he's looking for you somebody could run out and kick the tin, there you go and fetch him, and if he'd caught anybody and when you kicked that tin the other, well you could all go and hide. You sort of released him to, to go and hide again. Er... rounders which is er similar to er I dunno American baseball in, in a fashion isn't it? Well we used to play that in the street you see, have the lampposts, the top of the yard and there, there and have to set a good target rounders. Of course there was football and cricket and swimming in the canals, jumping off the suspension bridge was a regular thing. [speaker001:] Could you tell us about swimming in, in the canals Mr, what, what you used to do? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, well that was where I learnt to swim in the canal on Road, er it's the bridge that goes over Lane, near, near. And there's a ledge on one side and I suppose the canal, it's still there, the canal is on only about what three or four yards wide. And what we used to do to begin with the canal used to dip in the middle, you know there was bike wheels and dead cats and everything in it, and it used to dip and, and there was a sludge and, and the barges used to go up and down with a horse pulling them, and in the middle there was a, so you couldn't bottom it in the middle, so when I learnt to swim I used to dive off this ledge and go under the water so far and I, I could reach the bottom when I got to the other side. And hang onto the ledge. And I gradually began to swim like that. Well we used to go in the dinner hour, from Road School. And then at nighttime we used to come down to the, if we, if we didn't go in Baths which was smashing, it was absolutely great, had two piers and a, a diving board, er and a deep end and a, and a shallow end for kids. It were lovely, in the, opposite the paddling pool now. And then the other favourite place was the suspension bridge. Cos there was a lot of sand and gravel just under the sus sus suspension bridge on the right hand side then, and it would go sl gradually sloping towards the middle without being too deep. You know only right in the middle and we used to jump off the Suspension Bridge regular, some used to dive, but I never did dive there. I used to jump off the middle of the Suspension Bridge. [speaker001:] Now going, going back to your actual home environment Mr erm if there was always, could you actually describe how the house was built? [speaker002:] My [speaker001:] The make up of the house in Street. [speaker002:] Well it we it was a terrace and, and one side of the ter the front doors were facing each other and there was twelve or thirteen houses on each side. The front doors facing each other. One side of Terrace had a little garden, a little postage stamp, no [LAUGHTER] ever so small. Some used to keep them quite nice as well, but they were that tiny. Now the other side we didn't have one at all, we did, it were just the path down. Now the, round the backyard, used to go down the yard, and on the left hand side of the yard there was a, a, a, a toilet and a coal house. Everybody had a coal house, not many had coal in. [LAUGHTER] Much coal in anyway []. Some did, some had them full and some didn't and er there was a toilet and a... a toilet and a coal house across the yard and then we used to go in the back door and there was a tiny little kitchen. I suppose about one and a half yards, perhaps not that, square and in the corner there was what they called, what we had the copper for boiling the clothes, make it with small coal and, and coal and wood and paper and boil the water and, and my mother used to do the washing there and we had a big old mangle with wooden rollers out in the back yard, that was always out in the back yard. And on the top of that we used to keep a sink-bath. Er not, not the long one, we didn't have a long one we had a rou oval one. And we used to keep that on top of the mangle. And then at the side of the copper there was a gas stove, and there was some shelves where we used to put silver spoons. And round to the left to the copper was a sink, a stone sink, just cold water. Then the kitchen, there were the living room was er about three by, three by three I should think, maybe three and a half by three. Now we had a coal fire, on one side there was the er hot water boiler and on the other side there was the oven. Er the copper, the, the hot water boiler we, we had a top on and, and you fill it up and then when the water was hot take it out. Well [LAUGHTER] this all had coal and, and the, the chimneys want wanted sweeping and if you didn't sweep your chimney regular the soot used to come down onto this water [LAUGHTER] into, into this er boiler. We were, were very often washing with er sooty water. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And how many bedrooms did it have? [speaker002:] Two. [speaker001:] Now er if there was... twelve of you [speaker002:] Ah well not, there wasn't twelve to all together. Er because me sis me sister, two of me sisters went in service, er there was me, at this time, me, me brother, two sisters, no, two brothers, five, six, well I, I have, we have at one time me mother and father slept downstairs in the front room. Er... me and me brother and two sisters slept in one bed, two at the bottom, two at the top. And then the other room was for the bigger, the elder ones. Er I think there was just Elsie at home then. Yeah, she's dead now. [speaker003:] Cassie's older than Elsie. [speaker002:] Ah but Cassie wasn't at home then. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker002:] She was in service. So you know, we had back room for the, the elder and the youngsters into, to, well we were only kids you know then. Talking about twelve and er eleven or twelve, thirteen. [speaker001:] Now... erm... did you say your father got a pension from the Army? [speaker002:] A what? [speaker001:] Did you say your father got a pension from the Army? [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] W was it a decent, well I mean was it a living wage [speaker002:] Yeah I, I, I think, I think it was about by the time he, he'd had this allowance from... you know going to College, I, I think it left him with about twenty seven bob a week, which wasn't bad you know. Because a, a, a labourer w was only earning thirty shilling a week. A porter on a railway was only on er I think it was twenty seven to thirty bob a week. A skilled man at at that time was earning one and tuppence an hour. For forty eight hours, and the labourer was on tenpence ha'p tenpence ha'penny an hour. So you know it wasn't a bad little pension was it? [speaker001:] Er... erm [speaker003:] [whispering] Smoky []. [speaker001:] could, could you tell us about the ways in which you as a child used to try and... get some money for yourself and the family? [speaker002:] What the boy the lads? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Oh yeah. Well there was a... it was such a job at that time... you couldn't get work and we, we used to genuinely look for work every day, but it was just a waste of time. So we had to go to pictures... and we had to have a few or whatever. So one of the ways was, at that time the Co-op used to have a horse and cart coming round the streets, fruits and, and they used to sell rabbits. Well the, the lads used to skin the rabbits for the customers and throw the skin ov over the top of this cart, horse and cart. So we'd jump up an get one of these rabbit skins and then we'd take it back to wholesale fruiter in Street, and get fourpence for it. Well that would enable us to go to pic one of us to go to pictures and get a penny bag of sweets, or a pennyworth of fruits, or a pennyworth of stale buns. You see we were never hungry, although you know [LAUGHTER] er times were bad and all that [], you were never short of money either. Because another one was er we come down the houses in here, empty houses and in, in the summer they used to grow flowers, Marguerites, and we used to go in the backyard, we weren't supposed to, er and cut these flowers and make them into bunches and, and sell them for tuppence and thruppence a bunch. Nice big bunches you know and, and wonderful value for the people. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And was there any other ways you used to, is there any other things you used to do? [speaker002:] Er minding motors outside the Arms and the Bridge Hotel every night, maybe only get sixpence or sevenpence cos there wasn't that many cars about at the time. And, and we used to say to them, er can I mind your car sir? Aye, keep your eye in it my lad. And he'd come out maybe at ten o'clock, just gone and give you tuppence or some would give you a penny. Er and then another one was er bottles, we used to go round the back of er er and get a bottle or two bottles and get tuppence, penny on the pint and tuppence on the quart bottles. And take them back into the shop or send somebody else with them and er get our picture money that way. And then er we'd maybe get thruppence between us and let one go and pay to g to in the pictures and open the, lift the bar up, the emergency exit, and get in on our hands and knees behind the curtain. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was this quite a common thing for the lads in the to do things like this? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yeah, we all did it. We all did it. [speaker003:] They still do it actually. [speaker002:] Do they? I don't know. [speaker003:] I reckon our David's done it. [speaker002:] There were different gangs you see, there was, there was er my, say our, our gang, we'd be er thirteen to fifteen. And then there was another gang fifteen to eighteen, and then another gang eighteen to twenty three. There was three different gangs. [speaker001:] And were they based on areas as well, did you have like a different gang for different streets sort of thing? [speaker002:] Oh yes, we used to meet at top of the yard. Er you see er no we were, we were all together. Sometimes all the lot of us would play there, marbles was another favourite game. I mean I, I, I, I've had as many as a thousand marbles in a bag. All for taking lawyers. Er if, if you, if you had, you had to dig a little hole in, in the, in the, by the wall on the, on the pavement like that to hold about sixty four marbles say, and you'd start off and say, give or give or take... give or take as a lawyer, I used to have four marbles, and whoever was taken that was a lawyer of four marbles, I don't know why. And whoever took this four marb eight marbles had chucked them in this hole and if a even number come out it was mine, if a odd number came out then he'd take the eight. Then you'd have eighter, or sixteener, a thirty twoer until you'd got sixty four marbles you know and chuck them in this hole and if odd or even come out. Of course it was gambling. Martin they used to call it, pitch and toss, er till the policeman used to come round and used to, what you on with? Ah just sitting here. [speaker001:] Did, was there a lot of gambling, did, er in the area? [speaker002:] Well we did in, in this particular, in, in Terrace. Every weekend. Some men and, and some lads. We'd play pontoon and brag, ha'penny, farthings farthings. We've even played for fags. [cough] [speaker001:] Now... could you tell us about erm... like you, the general health of the family, how was that taken care of? [speaker002:] Fortunate I can't remember too much er ordinary er illnesses like er, we'd have a cold and, and you know er and that but no, I can't remember chicken pox and er [speaker003:] Measles. [speaker002:] scarlet fever and that sort of thing. There was a lot, lot had it er I don't know how they used to go on really er I know some somebody in a, a movement called Rachobites er what were the other one? [speaker003:] I can't remember. [speaker002:] Eh? [speaker003:] I can't remember. [speaker002:] There were some sort, some sort of er... some like an insurance, now maybe only pay tuppence a tuppence [speaker003:] Tuppence a week. [speaker002:] Yeah. Er and that, and that cou would get you get you to a doctor then. Er but if a, a doctor's visit I think they used to pay five shilling if, if you sent for the doctor. And you'd got to pay five shillings. Wasn't it five bob? [speaker003:] Yeah, it was a lot of money in those days. [speaker002:] Mm. I can, could apart from, from that, this operation I never had any illnesses, not when I was a kid you know, not until later on. [speaker001:] Now... you've just been describing to us Mr about er your leisure activities etcetera and it was sort of confined to the etcetera. Did you have much trouble with the police, involvement with them etcetera? [speaker002:] No er... not, not really because the only time I, I wa I was in trouble with the police was I was riding a bike without a light. And this policeman, I were coming down Lane off over the hump back bridge. And he eh said, where do you live? I said, twenty four Terrace. And he took me home, er he gave me a good talking to, and tell me dad, cos me, I nearly, I got a good hiding, was going to get a good hiding from me dad, until this policeman says, don't worry, he says er, you won't hear anything about it. And I got a summons. I had to go to court, to pay five bob, cos I were riding a bike without a light. I went to the Hall and the old man paid out. Er now if you broke a window, this was the sort o how we used to get into trouble we should play maybe football or rounders or cricket or something and we'd break somebody's window. And we'd got to pay for it which was usually another five bob. Er [speaker001:] Were the lads you used to knock around with, were any of them in serious trouble with the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] police? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Could you tell us about them? [speaker002:] Two, two of them. Well I'm not gonna mention their names but they're still alive, one's still in and he's doing, he's done very well for himself. Three of them went into a shop, in a baker's shop, why I wasn't with them that day I don't know cos we was always together, our four. But this day I wasn't there anyway and er they went into this shop in the, er and they came out, or one of them took a, a fruit cake. They're about I, I, I think the pri [sneeze] price was one and three. The three of them was involved. Well one got let off, one got a pro put on probation, for three years, and the other one got sent away to an approved school. And that one that got sent away he, he learnt a certain job which he's done in ever since and he's done very well at it. [speaker001:] Were they picked on by the police, the people in the, cos that seems a pretty severe sentence. [speaker002:] Well no the, the owner, the baker reported them to the police. But we knew the police and the police knew us. You know they di they knew us by name. I mean we were to come over Bridge here and there was a police station on Bridge at the time, police, you know opposite the T B I, and the sergeant used to stand there and he used to wait for us coming home. We had, we'd go to Park, be sent out of there by the keeper because [LAUGHTER] we co we weren't supposed to be in he said []. And the girls used to say, these bri these lads are here again, and er, well he sent us out and when we'd come back we'd pass this sergeant and at, he'd, he'd talk to u where you been, what you been up to? I'd say, nothing, we've just been up there, and he'd smack us across the chops with the er gloves, and say, go on, and don't let me see you here again. [LAUGHTER] You know []. [cough] [speaker001:] But wasn't it somewhat severe to, to get you know [speaker002:] Wasn't it what? [speaker001:] Wasn't it a bit severe to be put into er a detention centre for, for just nicking a cake? [speaker002:] One and thruppenny fruit er fruit cake, yeah. [speaker001:] Was that quite normal at the time? [speaker002:] Er... well it er it was normal because it was the only time I, I've heard it happen in Street anyway but there were, there was kids being sent away all the time to borstal and er for doing wrong things. [speaker001:] And was the area itself er with the adults concerned, were the police often involved with them? [speaker002:] No it, it wasn't so bad really. Er [speaker003:] It was a bit rough, it wasn't [speaker002:] It was rough but you know it, it w it was petty things that we was in trouble for, not, nothing sin I mean we would never think of mugging anybody or vandalizing things for the sake of vandalizing. Er we, we'd tie two doors together which, and then knock on them both, [LAUGHTER] and then run like hell []. Er firework night now I... we would get bangers, put them, get a dustbin lid and, and put the banger under the dustbin lid and the dustbin lid used to go up because they were big bangers then. But apart from that I mean we w I never knew any of our lot to put one through a letter box or anything like that, you know. We was all into mischief but it was never anything wrong, you know what I mean? Er I, I... like bonfire night we'd, we'd maybe start collecting bonfire rubbish round about the end of August. We'd go to all the shops along our and there was some shops, with bags hoping to get something else besides rubbish. And then stored it in somebody's coal house. And at that time nearly everybody had a bed with a mattress made of straw, and on top of this mattress, straw mattress they used to have what they call a tick, flock, flock tick. Well every bonfire night it was the time for most people to get rid of the fleas and the mattresses and er and bonfire night we used to come just right. Well I know in one terrace alone in Street, Street used to have three big bonfires in this two hundred yards and I've known one terrace, Terrace to have as many as twenty mattresses you know piled on the street ready for, and the big lad the bigger lads used to, to get the props get somebody's prop and stoke the fire up and put the mattresses on. And then you'd got the fleas and, if you hadn't got fleas at home you certainly would have them [LAUGHTER] after bonfire night []. [speaker001:] Mr could, could you tell us was, was there a pawnbrokers near you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. Now... there was er, he had two shops on Street. He had one er just on Street there and the other one was near Street. And there was also another one a little bit further on. There were three on Street between Bridge and Station. About that time everybody had indigo suit, you know what indigo blue is don't you? Well this, this indigo suit whether it was brown, blue, or black, it was still indigo. Cos it was indigo on Monday as [LAUGHTER] out it go on Saturday, if you were lucky []. Er... everybody or nearly everybody used to go to the pawnshop. But nobody wanted other people to know about it, be embarrassed. We went, I went regular. And so did a good many people who I, I thought would never go. Cos I used to see them there. [LAUGHTER] You see, they, they can't deny it []. But I, my mother used to send me and er with my father's suit and er she used to say er, now you're going t to pawnshop, take your dad's suit. I says, aye, aye. And I used to get a penny or tuppence sometimes to take it in. And then on a Saturday she'd say, go fetch your dad's suit. I said, well, I said, I'm, I'm someone had seen me last week. Cos it instead of it wasn't wrapped up you see, it was wrapped up in a cloth. Well if you've got a cloth er parcel with, with, wrapped in cloth you know everybody knew where you were going and I didn't like people to know I was going to, been to the pawnshop. So we started another thing then the, if you paid fourpence you, you could have your suit wrapped up and it were new paper with string. And it looked as though you'd bought something rather than been to the pawnshop. I used to say, well let me have a fourpenny wrapper and then I, I, and fourpence was a lot of money then. So anyway I used to get this fourpenny wrapper and er walk down Street. And everybo [LAUGHTER] still everybody knew, it didn't matter []. [speaker001:] Was, was everybody embarrassed about going to the pawnbrokers or didn't didn't some people [speaker002:] quite a lot. It was very useful for people, because it was the only way they could get the bit of money on a Monday. I mean they used to take things er the wedding ring, the jewellery if they'd got any, towels, sheets, er suits, shoes, er didn't didn't want to sell them, didn't want to get rid of them, they just wanted to borrow money on those, and he used to charge you interest and ticket money when you took it in, and then you'd got to pay interest when you took it out as well so it was, they were on a good thing. Yeah. And then people used to er maybe wedding rings or sovereign used to pawn that and then they used to either they couldn't afford to get it out, to, to redeem it so er the pawnbroker would sell it then, after a time. They was on making a good living and still do I think. They're coming back again pawnshops aren't they? [speaker001:] And and was it the suit that was the thing you always used to pawn? [speaker002:] Ooh my dad's suit was definitely the thing every week. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I don't know why he brought it out on, on the weekend for it []. [LAUGHTER] There's another story about me dad that most of used to borrow we had moneylenders in, in the streets, there was quite a few moneylenders in the. And they used to charge, maybe lend you half a crown, not a pawnshop but your ordinary women, used to lend you half a crown and maybe charge you sixpence for it or something like that you see. And my father s he er he used to go in the Plum Tree and one of the landlords there he'd say er, Tom lend us a quid. And he used to lend me dad a pound and he always used to give him it back on a Wednesday, on his pension day. And then borrow it again on a Friday or a Saturday and this went on for so long er he'd eventually Tom said, by the way Jack, he said, whose pound note, whose pound is this? So he said, why? He said I don't know whether it's mine or whether it's your bugger. He said, I tell you what, he said, you keep it we we we'll call it straight. [LAUGHTER] So I don't know whose pound it was. [speaker001:] Did these people who used to lend money get a bit heavy if they weren't repaid? What did they used to do? [speaker002:] If they didn't get paid, well, er there wasn't official moneylenders so they couldn't er they couldn't sue you I'd think. They weren't supposed to do it anyway, it was illegal. No i er I don't know people didn't go out of their depth I don't think, they, it was half a crown or five bob and, and they used to pay, maybe pay it back in bits and bobs. And then the woman that would lend them money'd say, well you're not having any more, so you'd got to try and find somebody else who'd lend you money. But [speaker001:] But you've never heard of people getting beat up [speaker002:] Oh no, no, no. [speaker001:] cos they hadn't paid or anything. [speaker002:] No, no.

[speaker001:] Yes. Well I was born, born at in nineteen eleven. So it's quite a long while ago and I've travelled round quite a bit since then. My father was a Methodist minister. So we moved round every three or at the most four years, and er we we've been up in Scotland and er Yorkshire, Lancashire, and down East Anglia. And er it wasn't until he came up to a, er in the Skegness circuit when I was eighteen that's when I started nursing. And erm I ca I came to in the first place because it was the best teaching hospital in the Midlands at that time. And er it was near home as well so I, I should be able to get home for days off. That was the, the main thing. [speaker002:] Oh was that, that was nice. Erm could you tell me about your father being a Methodist minister? He was, was he just moved on from time to time, or were they voluntary moves? [speaker001:] No er in the Methodist er ci circuits they move them on, they're, they're invited for three years. Least they were at that time. And then at the end of the three years you were either invited to stay an, an extra year or s you were, you were sort of er you had an invitation from some other circuit. To go there. They used to send the stewards round and er you you'd suddenly see two new people in the congregation and they'd [LAUGHTER] come to hear the minister preach to see if he was a good preacher and then they'd go back to report. A and then he would either have an official invitation or should hear no more about it []. But that was very difficult from th the children's point of view. There were, there were two erm boarding schools for Methodist ministers' children. There was for boys and for girls. Er and you could go to a boarding school but if you didn't you were moved round every three or four years at the most to a different school. Er and my brother went to a boarding school but I didn't. And I've, it was always a big handicap because the syllabuses at different schools were different. You'd go to a school where they'd been doing French or Latin for two or three years and you hadn't done any at all. It was very very difficult. So I, I can't really say my school days were the happiest days, they certainly weren't. [speaker002:] Mm. Was there any reason why your brother was sent to a boarding school but you weren't? [speaker001:] Well not really. Boys in those days they were always given the best education. Girls it wasn't nearly so important that they should be er er an and also I, I don't [LAUGHTER] think my parents thought I was really worth educating []. They didn't think I was very bright or very brainy. I was a very er quiet child and er very little self confidence. I think that was a lot of it. And they didn't expect very much of me from my school reports and I thought, well if they didn't expect I you know I wasn't capable of it. And it wasn't really until I left school and er went into nursing that I thought, now this is something I'm starting on ev even with everybody else. Er and something I really wanted to do, and really enjoyed. Th that's where I, I really started in and sort of showed what I was made of. I could come out top in my exams then when I never did at school, I never did anything much at school at all. [speaker002:] Do you think this was er special to your family that you were treated as you weren't a brainy one or do you think that was the way girls were generally treated? [speaker001:] I, I think it was largely the way most girls were treated. Th you know it was just the sort of... it, it all changed after the First World War and completely changed after the Second World War. Before then you, you were sort of, you were a girl. You stayed at home and helped in the home until you were old enough. Then you got married then and that was sort of the sum total of it. And it wasn't really until after the First World War when things really sort of er got started and er women sort of carried on and, and they do take jobs and occupations er that they sort of really came into their own. And certainly during the Second World War where they kept things going an and could prove that they were as [LAUGHTER] good as any man []. But even... until ooh when, I, I can remember my daughter when she er was going to university. There were certain subjects that they said, keep off, because it doesn't matter how clever you are. It doesn't matter how good a degree you get. It will go for nothing. If a man applies and he, even if he hasn't got as good qualifications as y as you've got, you won't have a, stand an earthly. The man will always get the job. Well that has changed a lot now and I think it i it, it is a good thing as well. [door knock] [speaker002:] Do you think you were conscious as a child at the difference between the way your brother was treated and the way yourself? [speaker001:] No. I think I just accepted it. He was younger than I was. Er he was a delicate baby and I was always the sturdy one and I was always expected to give in to him and sort of coddle him an an he, he, he was always sort of put first. I never minded at all. No. It didn't bother me. I think most people were the same in those days. [speaker002:] Did you have to help around the house when you were a child? [speaker001:] Not a great deal. We, we were expected, we did, we were expected to keep our own rooms tidy. And make our own beds but... not, not a great deal. You see in those days i people i servants were so... you could get servants so easily ev even if you didn't have somebody living in er you, you'd have a daily person. They saw to all the washing up. Er and that sort of thing. But no we weren't expected to do a lot in the house. [speaker002:] Mm. So did you generally have a, a daily lady to come and help or [speaker001:] Yes. We did. When we were about nine and ten and a half we had somebody living in because there were an awful lot of evening meetings that my father had to go to and usually mother went with him. Which meant we'd always got somebody in the house, sort of baby-sitting really. That, that's her main, she used to sort of look after things and baby-sit for us in the evenings. [speaker002:] Ha have you got any particular memories of your earliest childhood? [speaker001:] Not a great deal. I, I can remember we were at in Lancashire. That was during the First World War, I should be I suppose about five then. Er we er my father was chaplain to a big military hospital there. And it was always sort of open house and the nurses used to come in when they were off duty a lot. And oh the, the soldiers, the wounded soldiers, they used to come as well. You could always tell who they were. They had sort of er er rather pretty blue er suits they used to wear with white shirts and red ties. You could always tell they were, they were er they'd been wounded and, and they were i in hospital by their dress. And they used to come in a lot. An and I think of course we were made quite a fuss of too. Er and I, I don't know whether that was where I got my first idea of being a nurse. I never wanted to be anything else but a nurse. It was the one thing I always wanted to do. I never wanted to do anything, it never entered my head to do anything else. Er so whether I unconsciously got it from there, I, I don't really know, I may have done. [speaker002:] Yes. Were there any other family infu influences at all in this line? I know on your wall here you, you have a lovely portrait of your grandfather and grandmother. [speaker001:] Yes, yes. Th they influenced my life a, a lot. My mother died when I'd be about eleven. And er course summer holidays we always used to go and spend them with granny and granddad. They had retired and they lived down at Lowestoft so it was a lovely place to go for summer holidays. And we always used to go there. Er and they did, they influenced, they influenced er me a lot, a lot really and I suppose they did my brother as well. But er we, we could always ask granddad if we wanted to know anything. How babies were born or, or anything. We always go and ask granddad. And he'd never tell us, he, he'd never, he'd always tell us as much as he thought we could accept. He was very modern really for his age,fo for er the time he lived in really. Cos in those days they didn't. I mean it just wasn't talked about. You, you, you, you, girls used to get married in those days, and they were extremely innocent, they'd really no idea at all. And yo when I look back an and er and think of even when I first started nursing a lot of the girls we used to get in, they thought if they kissed a man they were going to have a baby. They were very innocent. But er [LAUGHTER] things have changed a lot these days []. [speaker002:] Yes. What kind of job did your grandfather do? [speaker001:] Ah he was a, he was a headmaster at a Methodist school at in Yorkshire. And er he'd worked his way up as a teacher, then he, he was a headmaster. And even then I, I would have sa thought he, he was very up to date. He used to have very definite ideas of, of er how to treat children. I don't know whether the psychiatrists would have agreed with him. But I know I could remember being taken round his school and in the main hall he'd got a glass fronted cupboard, and he'd got all sorts of well really and truly they were just pretty pebbles. I don't think they were anything much more than that. But they were all for certain things and I, I, I remember one er was for anybody who stuttered. And he'd got a boy who did stutter and he always used to go to granddad before er he when he came to school, before lessons and he'd give him this pebble and he'd say, now you can put it in your pocket. But always hold it, keep it and if you're holding that stone you won't stutter. And he didn't. And he got so he could gradually do without it and he never stuttered again.... Most [LAUGHTER] amazing thing []. [speaker002:] Did he [speaker001:] Probably, you know, lack of self confidence or something like that. But it did the trick. [speaker002:] Yes. Did he have other pebbles er which had other cures? Was this what the pebbles were for? [speaker001:] He may have done. I really don't know, but I do remember that one. I remember him telling me about that, that stone. [speaker002:] Mm. You said that your grandmother played quite a part in your upbringing after your mother died. [speaker001:] Yes, yes. Well she taught me to knit and she taught me to do a lot of embroidery and that sort of thing. She did certainly influence me in, in that way. But erm I still do, I still do a lot of knitting. I can't do any embroidery nowadays but I do, I sti I'm never st er I've never er stopped enjoying knitting. It's always been a hobby with me. And then she did a lot of tatting. You don't hear that these days. Erm and we never knew how she did it, she never had told anybody how she did it, it died with her I'm afraid. But everything she, everything she did always had some embroidery on. She never did anything jus just plain. It was amazing really and even, she was eighty two when she died and even then she was knitting her own jumper suits. And embroidery. Even the canary cover had an embroidery [LAUGHTER] on it. It was amazing []. She'd ge nothing everything she did she had to sort of beautify it and put some embroidery on it. [speaker002:] I, I take it that she didn't have a job as well. [speaker001:] No. No. No. In those days women didn't seem to take part time jobs or jobs at all. I think if they did anything it, it was sort of charity work. Er and they did a lot of sewing for bazaars at church and that sort of thing. But er I don't really remember erm people going out to work much ex except, I suppose you'd call them the lower classes, or not really the working classes because er, but the lower classes they would take in washing. Er or they'd go out doi charring and go you know work the we used to have a woman come in once a week to do the washing. She'd come in and do the washing in the morning, and if it was a nice bright day she'd iron in the afternoon. For the whole family. Er and other er women would you know you'd take it to them an and they'd do it in, in their own homes. And it would come back already done. But other than that I don't think, women didn't do much I mean even in shops, the men were the shop assistants nearly always. So you didn't get women going out, nothing like, not like they do these days. [speaker002:] And when you went to school, can you remember what wh that was like? [speaker001:] Well I was never very happy at school. I never seemed to be... sort of up to the other scholars at all. But er it was, the discipline was very much stricter than it is er today. Er nowadays so many things are just accepted that in those days they wouldn't be. I can remember one, one girl, I mean the great sin was to steal anything, and er they'd found in her, her satchel somebody else's pencil. Now whether it had got there by mistake we never knew but there was no question she was absolutely just dismissed on the spot. Sent home and that was it. But er any pinching or anything like that ooh it was erm it just wasn't accepted at all. It was a terrible crime. Whereas now I mean it's a case of if you lose anything it's your own fault for putting it down. It's, it's a terrible [LAUGHTER] state of affairs really. It's not improved at all. And of course the discipline in the classroom er it was very strict. [cough] There was neve never any talking in class. I mean it was, you, you were sent out of the room. [speaker002:] Did you as children think that that was fair? [speaker001:] Oh yes we did. Yes, we went to school to learn and we were told not to talk. If we talked well we, we expected it. Er there wasn't anything like the, well not to the schools that I went to, the corporal punishment that there seems to have been since. Er it w I don't ever remember anyone you know getting the cane or anything like that. We did have lines, hundred lines, I must do not do this or something like that which was very negative really. [LAUGHTER] Be far better if they told us to do something sensible []. But er i it took your time up when you know when you might have been enjoying yourself. But, but erm no we expected, we accepted the, the discipline. We were told not to do a thing, if we did it well you, you knew what you were up against. Er I think far more than they do now. They don don't seem to take notice of what the teachers said. Er and I think perhaps teaching I don't know whether it's different today but they seemed to instil in us the love of, of poetry and the, the love of literature and that sort of thing. I've always been grateful for that, that they did you know create th th this love of poetry. I've never lost it. And I still like a lot of the, the classics an and the good, the good English. But er nowadays they sort of, I don't know, it's different. [speaker002:] Did you have the variety of subjects that children have today? [speaker001:] Er well I suppose we did but they were different. I er we, we had Latin and French mainly. Erm then we had all the usual maths and English, erm history and geography. Er I think we learnt it probably in different ways, we learnt it more parrot fashion than they do today. But I, I mean when it comes to times tables that sort of thing I've never been sorry I learnt those. I think a lot of schools do still teach the t the children their tables which I think is a good thing. You never forget them. But erm there was not the handicrafts. You, you were taught plain sewing and that sort of thing but that was about all. To hem and an and to seam. But erm n n not, not the handicrafts that they teach them now at school. I say I should think really and truly er schooling today is more fun than it was. We'd, it was very serious in our day but now it's much more fun. They enjoy it more. They do all sorts of erm projects that we never did. [speaker002:] Er were the boys taught different things from the girls in some subjects? [speaker001:] Yes. They, I mean carpentry, they had carpentry. Th th only boys did it and cookery only the girls that did it. Er you, you sort of got a basic idea of cookery. And, and of course needlework, but erm they were mainly the, I suppose they were giving you a good er grounding as they'd call it in those days. [speaker002:] Mm.... Er can you remember when you were a small child erm what sort of things you did at playtime at school? The kind of games you played? [speaker001:] Well I suppose w we, yes we used to have erm hopscotch,th different seasons. I can't remember the seasons now, the different seasons brought out different games. There was hopscotch, er and then all of a sudden everybody would start with hoops. You couldn't do that [LAUGHTER] these days, the traffic's too bad [] but we used to have wooden hoops or we'd have er iron hoops. Er and then skipping ropes, that was another thing. Er they, there were seasons for all these things and then erm balls, we used to used to play balls up against the walls. Er but er th th oh and tops, that were another thing. Yes, spinning tops. With whips. We used to, there used to be little wooden tops. And then we used to make crayon patterns of the top and then when they went whizzing round they used to look very pretty. And we used to see how who could keep them going the longest. [speaker002:] And did both boys and girls play these games? [speaker001:] They,everyb yes. Erm th tops. Girls mainly skipping, I don't remember ever seeing any boys skipping. The girls usually had the wooden hoops and the boys the iron hoops. Erm but other than that yes, they didn't,th they'd play more a sort of football, the boys would. We'd play just with ordinary er sort of tennis ball size, that type of ball. But other than that, yes we did more or less all play the same games. And we used to have long skipping ropes too. We used to be sort of er almost like a erm a clothes line. You used to go sort of right into the road, almost across the road, a side road. And you'd have two turning, one each end, and you'd get four, five, or even six people all skipping in the middle. [LAUGHTER] At the same time. [speaker002:] Yes.... Can you tell me about your brother? What did your brother go on to do later? [speaker001:] Er well he, he went, he, he went er he was erm for quite a while he was er he had Chow dogs. He was breeding Chow dogs and then he went t on to erm er he went to a poultry farm, for a time. And then when the war came he er he was one of the first Bevan boys that, one of the boys that went down the mines to relieve the miners. Er well that didn't last very long, he wasn't really cut out for that sort of thing at all. He, he, he was more of a scholastic type. Then he went in for er for teaching afterwards. Er and then he, he went to Singapore, he was there for quite a long while after the war teaching the er the English children. They didn't mix in those days. The English were taught in a different school to the Chinese. So he was teaching there and then he came back. Er he's retired now, but he was teaching in an English school for a while. [speaker002:] Could you tell me about when he became a Bevan boy? Was that something he volunteered for? [speaker001:] Well er I, well yes. They were sort of given a choice er i either I, I think it was sort of either you go on the land or er y you, you go down the mines. And he decided he'd try down the mines. But it was very hard work. I it, it was, it was alright f for people wh who were used to that sort of thing but I mean they hadn't all the mechanization in the mines then that they have now. It was really very hard work and he used to come back absolutely smothered in coal dust, very dirty. So I think he was down for about six months before he left. [speaker002:] Where was that? [speaker001:] Er do you know, I don't know. It'd be in one of the, the pits. I don't remember which one it was. He was married by that time and erm living down at but I don't think it, it would be fairly near there. It wouldn't be too far out. [speaker002:] Can we turn now then to your own career? You'd decided to go into nursing, and you've said you'd always wanted [speaker001:] Mm. Yes. [speaker002:] to go into nursing. So how did you [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] eventually start in nursing? [speaker001:] Well i it, it certainly never entered my head to do anything else and although several other things were suggested er I never er I never even considered them. Er even the headmaster said, he tried to put me off. He said, oh you know it's very hard work. You have to clean a lot of brasses, but I mean I wasn't gonna be put off. And it was er it, it, when I, I was eighteen in the March. And I started at the General Hospital er in on May the first nineteen twenty nine. So [speaker002:] Why why do you think people were trying to put you off? [speaker001:] I don't think they thought I was cut out or suitable for nursing. I don't [LAUGHTER] I don't know why they shouldn't []. But whether they thought it was going to be too hard work, and, and it certainly was very hard work. But if you are doing something you, you like and want and enjoy doing er you, you don't mind working hard, at all. But it was very hard work. And of course it was very very poorly paid. We got er we, well after the first three months, the first three months we, we were s what they call student nurses. Er it was mainly lectures on erm hygiene, and biology,a and that type of thing. And er then we erm we, we, we went on the wards for about two or three hours a day and we just s sort of did what we were told, took out drinks and, and that sort of thing, and mouthwashes, and after er we'd been there for about six or eight weeks we were allowed to wash patients, if, if they couldn't wash themselves. Th this type of thing until the, after the three months we had to pass an exam. And if we passed the exam then we became er er p probationer nurses then. And started on the, on the wards. We started at seven in the morning and we finished at eight at night. And we had er two hours off during the day, er and twenty minutes for dinner and er about twenty minutes for tea. So we didn't get very much ti time off and by the time we got back to our rooms at night we were so terribly tired you just dropped into bed. I don't think I've ever been so tired before or since as I was just that, that first year when we were probationer nurses. We were on our feet the whole time. It, we never sort of slackened off at all and in those days there was so much brass to be cleaned and scrubbing to be done and cleaning. Everything was er so much more difficult than it, than it is today and er things were not sort of disposed of like they are now. They, they were all sterilized, thoroughly washed, and then st sterilized in, in the sterilizer, boiled in the sterilizer. And I and I don't know whether they still have the wooden lockers now but they used to be, have to be all scrubbed out every week. The outside polished. Er it, it was very hard work. There's no getting away from it. And when you were pros you did, you got all the [LAUGHTER] mucky jobs to do as well. They always used to call us mucky little pros. And for all for er for that er you got, you, you well you got your keep er and I don't really think there was anything wrong with the food, it was the way it was cooked. It was terribly badly cooked. And you just could not manage on the food that was provided. You either got tuck boxes from home or you had to supplement it with your own earnings, which, ten shillings a week. We got two pounds a month. And out of that you had to keep yourself in stockings, er and shoes for the ward. Er and you, you, you provided yourself with the uniform before you came as a student nurse so that was alright for the first year, so you'd no uniform to provide. But er I often wonder what the nurses today would think if they [LAUGHTER] if that's all they n they got []. I know m money did go much farther in those days but there certainly wasn't very much to spare at all. Erm [speaker002:] You kept so busy it seems a waste of time to ask you what your social life was like [LAUGHTER] as a student nurse []? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It was nil. Absolutely. There was never any time at all. And even when you got into your second years you did get erm two hours off one day and three hours the next, which was usually five till eight. But you had to be in by eight o'clock. So er I mean it wasn't much good if you [LAUGHTER] wa wanted to go out with anybody. Say, well I'm awfully sorry I'm off at five but I got to be back at eight. It [], no, no. It was absolutely, it wasn't, it was absolutely n no social life at all. If you were lucky er and you had friends in, you could go out for tea and, and that's about all there was. And on the Sunday well you'd go to church or chapel because literally there was nothing else to do. There was nothing going on in the centre of. It was absolutely dead. You couldn't get a cup of tea or a cup of coffee anywhere. Of course no theatres open, no pictures open, no coffee bars. Absolutely nothing. It was as dead as anything. [speaker002:] Were all the student nurses about the same age? [speaker001:] Yes. Yo occasionally you got somebody who was a little bit older but no we were nearly always, I don't think anyone much older [LAUGHTER] could have stood the pace actually []. Er we did have one person who was in her early twenties but er she gave it up. Er you know she couldn't stick it, she, she gave it up, it was too hard work. [speaker002:] And do you think they all came from the same kind of background as yourself or were they more working people? [speaker001:] . No, I think they were a real mixture. Er er they came from a good old cross section of life. I s I still even now occasionally see one or two that we, we all started together. We still keep up, we hear from one another at Christmas time. But erm no we there were, there were all sorts er there was, they used to come in of course from the country. Er there was a stationmaster's daughter there I remember. Erm no, no, we were a good old cross section I think really. In those days you know it, it was a vocation. You [LAUGHTER] certainly didn't do it for the money []. Er you, you did it because you really wanted to and it, it, it was a satisfying job. And that's what I think it, it's, I'm wondering now if the nurses today get the satisfaction from the job that we got in those early days. It was very hard work but you felt, well I've done a good day's work when you'd finished. Because when you were on night duty, which you, you did, er i it was a twelve hour stint right through from eight at night till eight in the morning. And course you, other than the half an hour for a meal in the middle of the night er that was it you got no time off at all. So erm [speaker002:] Where do you think your satisfaction came from in the job? [speaker001:] Well I suppose you i i i th th the patients were very very grateful for anything that you did. We did get them [LAUGHTER] better a lot of them at any rate []. Er and I think there w there was that satisfaction that you, you were doing something to help people get better. And they'd, they'd come in for surgery and you know you'd nurse them back again. Get them up on their feet. And there was a satisfaction about it although I always think in those days we had to work so fast that there wasn't the time to do what you'd really like to have done for the patients. It was a case of, I mean we used to start and wash them at three o'clock in the morning because t you had to start then because you'd never get it all done. You had to get everything done by the day staff coming on at seven. Er and if you didn't start at that early hour you'd, you'd, you'd never, they used to get, sit up in bed, have a wash, [LAUGHTER] then lie down again and go to sleep []. I mean I don't think they do, they do that these days, I hope not [LAUGHTER] any rate []. But you just had to do that sort of thing, I, we used to feel awfully sorry for the patients but you had, they had do it because they wouldn't have got a wash otherwise, there was so mu so much to do. I don't suppose the unions would put up with it these days but er ha there weren't such things as unions for nurses in those days. [speaker002:] Was there nothing that even the full er fully trained nurses could join? No union? [speaker001:] Well,i i just towards the end of my training there, there, there was the er College of Nursing started. Now er that really started to look into the, the, the nur the, the er profession and also to sort of see if they couldn't improve the lot of nurses. And of course now a large number of, of nurses, certainly the older ones do belong to the er College of Nursing, were members of that. We, I was in it, we, I think we paid a shilling a week, a five P a we er a, a five P a month to belong to it. Erm so we didn't pay very very much but they certainly had, they did, er they tried to standardize the, the nurses. Because e even in those days er it, it wasn't, there'd be good training hospitals and not so good. Now, nowadays a good training hospital will, will want at least er a number of O levels and preferably two or even three A levels before they would accept a student. Er standards have gone up, there's no doubt about that. But erm [speaker002:] Did you have to have any particular qualifications when you started? [speaker001:] They liked us to have what in those days was the matric. And if you had the matric yes well i it did help you to get in. Er you, you s a lot of them people did apply but er they just didn't you know they didn't get in. They didn't, what it was they didn't consider that people were suitable to become a nurse. I think that's what it was. But other than that, yeah they did like you to have your matric. I, I did have it and erm that was a help. The standard, standard of, of exams were pretty high, there's no getting away from that they were pretty high. Because you'd sort of, they, they'd go up and then if, if you went any farther you'd go on to the doctors' lectures you see. So they were pretty high in those days. [speaker002:] Now it was the General Hospital in where you did your training. [speaker001:] That's it, yes. [speaker002:] Erm, can you remember what it was like generally in terms of facilities? [speaker001:] Erm it wasn't too bad. We had our own bedrooms and that was saying quite a bit, because er the, the nurses home had been built er for the er as a sort of war memorial for after the First World War which was [LAUGHTER] one of the most sensible war memorials I think anyone could have er provided []. And we all had er our own bedrooms, which was nice. They weren't very big, but er they'd got a wardrobe, a be a single bed and er dressing table and drawers. Er and then we had about, ooh there'd be about ooh twenty of us to four bathrooms. And then we had er washrooms, about four or five washbasins in. Erm that, that, it, it wasn't too bad because people were coming on duty and going off duty. Er so I mean they were in use more or less all the time but er it was it wasn't, it wasn't too bad, better than a lot of hospitals had. Er ther there we did, we had a tutor sister who used to give us all our lectures. She did her best to try and in to make things a little bit more er interesting and she did start a tennis club up, which was nice because there was nothing at all before then. And we managed to get er two tennis courts which was very nice and we a we all used to play tennis. And she even managed to get us er somebody who would come and coach us a bit. So we, we th that, that was er another good thing they, they got going but there was very little for, for nurses to do. I think you were sort of there to, and then you see you, you've got to remember that all our lectures were taken in our off duty time. We didn't have time off for lectures we had to fit them in with our wi with our off duty. Er and often you'd come off duty at eight o'clock a and you'd have to go to a lecture between eight and nine at night. And, and even if you were on night duty you'd be on night duty for twelve hours, you'd come off at eight in the morning and have to go to a lecture at nine. And it was terribly difficult cos you'd just fall asleep. And many, and many a time tutor sister would rap on the desk and say, come on, wake up, [LAUGHTER] we've nearly finished []. She was very good. Very. But we used to have to take notes during the lecture a and then write the lectures up afterwards. So you could always borrow [LAUGHTER] somebody else's notes to write them up []. But nowadays of course they have a day off for lectures. Er it's much better really. But we did get terribly tired. And we had one day off a month. And if you were on night duty you'd get two nights off, but when you came back you'd, you'd, you'd have to be on duty that night so you'd have to go to bed that day. But we neve we never complained, no we, we, you know, we, we did, I suppose everybody worked harder in those days. I, I mean they did on the farms. I su I suppose... erm... things are easier now. And of course nowadays there's so much er things that er we use, there are so much labour saving things now that which makes a big difference. I think they've all got their own washing machines on the ward and that sort of thing, whereas we had to do it by hand and then bundle it all up and send it down to the laundry. [speaker002:] Were there things which the student nurses did complain about at all? [speaker001:] No, we didn't. We wer were there because we wanted to be there. Erm and no, I don't remember. We, we might grumble a bit amongst ourselves but we, we'd never dream of, of making a, a sort of an official complaint. I [LAUGHTER] I don't think [], we had a matron who was extremely strict and I don't think we would've [LAUGHTER] dared to say anything to her at all. She used to sit behind her desk looking very prim and proper, and er I don't, I don't quite honestly think we would've dared [LAUGHTER] say anything to her at all. [speaker002:] What sort of things was she strict about? [speaker001:] Er er the way we looked. We, we were not allowed to look er pretty on the wards or anything like that. We had to keep our hair right under our caps, look ver [LAUGHTER] very much the nurse. We were not there to look pretty at all. Er and er you, yes she was very very particular. We were not allowed to have any ladders in our stockings or anything like that, we had to look very smart. Er and always always clean and in those, even when you were, you had to behave yourself when you were not on duty when you were, even if you, she saw you out not looking er smart she'd soon tell you about it, er, no you let the hospital down when you, you're like that. And we were never allowed to go out in uniform, we always had to change er into mufti. But er n no, she was, she was, she was very particular even on the wards everything had to be just so. Er she used to start coming round the wards about ten o'clock. And er there were two nurses always detailed to go around about half past nine and tidy all the beds up and the patients had got to look like [LAUGHTER] patients []. They'd got to sit up and lean against their pillows and their sheets had got to be turned down. Er very, very neat, very tidy. And er all, all magazines and papers had to be put away. It was alright when she'd done the round they could, they could er bring them out again then, but not until then. And she'd go round and sort of s say, good morning, good morning. Er very prim and proper, and [LAUGHTER] and er er she'd go all the way round and she'd soon tell you if there was, if the beds weren't tidy. Or if any, the locker wasn't straight, everything had to be very, very straight, very, very correct. [speaker002:] Were the other senior nursing staff like her in their attitudes to prim primness and correctness or were some of them laxer than that? [speaker001:] They were a bit laxer but a lot of them were very very strict. Mind you it was their ward and, and yo you were there to learn and they were there t to teach. And you did the job properly. Er which it wasn't a bad, a bad.... So sometimes the sisters would, would really sort of get it in for a nurse and she'd [LAUGHTER] and they could make your life very unpleasant indeed []. But on the whole they weren't too bad. They weren't too bad, not on, not on the whole. You certainly did learn, you learnt to do things properly. You see. [speaker002:] Did any nurses ever get asked to leave? [speaker001:] Erm, oh yes, yes. I mean if you weren't in at whe when you were in your third and fourth year, it was a four year er training, er in third and fourth years you were allowed to stay out till ten o'clock at night. But [LAUGHTER] if you weren't in by ten the doors were locked. So of course we used to sort of try and get in in the nurses' home through a ground floor window. And if you were caught letting somebody in through [LAUGHTER] a ground floor window about eleven o'clock a night [], that, that was it. You was, were dismissed on the spot, that was it. [speaker002:] That was the ultimate crime was it? [speaker001:] Yes. Oh it, it was, yes. And I don't know wh I mean it was ridiculous even in those days, ten o'clock was very early. But er no you weren't allowed out. And even then er you had to ask for permission to stay out till ten. You, you weren't auto sort of automatically allowed out till ten you had to go to the office and say, please may I stay out till ten. I am going to do so and so, or I am going to the pictures or I, I'm going to so and so's for tea. Er and then you were allowed. But it er, when you're looking back it, it seems very ridiculous these days. They really did er they commanded your entire life. You were there for four years and the they, they didn't just, if you weren't in by ten and you didn't get your proper night's sleep then you wouldn't be any good on the wards the next morning. That was their er the their way of looking at it. Er that you, you had to have your sleep otherwise you were, you weren't er you, you couldn't a attend to your lectures and, and do your work the next day. You had, you had to get your night's sleep and proper rest. [speaker002:] Do you think that was an attitude to that was erm unique to nursing at the time or do you think erm that possibly girls in other walks of life had the same kind of experience of discipline and demands on them? [speaker001:] Well I suppose probably people li like nursemaids and er and er what they used to call in those days mothers' helps, who used to sort of be a general skivvy around the house and would look after the children, and, and, and they were the same, they had to be in I think at, at sort of ten o'clock at night. Erm and at that ti but other than that, mind you I su I suppose that if, if I'd been at home I should have [LAUGHTER] probably been expected [] to be in, but I don't think I should have been locked out. [LAUGHTER] I should have been allowed in if I was five minutes late []. [speaker002:] Yes. Were boys treated in the same way do you think? [speaker001:] I suppose they probably were. I don't sort of, I mean in those days they had wh apprenticeships and, and that sort of thing. You were apprenticed. Er I, I suppose yes they probably were expected to be in by a definite time. I don't really think it did us any harm. Erm it, it was a bit restricting, er but I don't really think the, the, the discipline did us any, any harm you know. I, I, it probably gave us a good grounding. I've always grown up with the idea if I do a job, I'll, I'll do it properly or else I won't bother, I won't tackle it all. I think it instilled that into me. And of course if you are nursing you can't afford to make mistakes, it may cost somebody's life if you do. You've got to have your wits about you. If you're giving medicines or, or an and that sort of thing, drugs of any sort. Er if you give an overdose or forget something, not to give medicine or give too much medicine it, it can be very serious, the consequences could be serious. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. Quite. And when you finished your training erm that was, how long a training was it in fact? [speaker001:] Four years [speaker002:] Four years. [speaker001:] and then if you'd been off sick at all you had to make that time up as well so it was about four years and six months I did there altogether. [speaker002:] Mhm. And then you were a fully qualified nurse? [speaker001:] Yes I was a State Registered Nurse then. [speaker002:] Yes and did you stay on at the hospital then? [speaker001:] Er no, I left then. For the last six months I did erm ward sister duties. She, she was off, off sick and er so for the last six months I did sister's duties which was very useful because er it, it, it gave me that little bit of independence, working on my own whereas before you'd always got either the staff nurse or the sister to fall back on. You know I was completely on my own I, I'd got to make my own decisions. So it really was, it, it was quite nice having that six months. [speaker002:] When you'd got your qualifications was there a big difference between the status of the trained nurse and the student nurses? [speaker001:] Oh yes, yes. The they er even in the dining room you, you sort of, there were long tables, well when you came in as, as a student nurse you were right at the bottom of the table, and as you, you know, the second year, third year, fourth year, you gradually moved up and then the, the State Registered Nurses they all sat together. Now I think they have sep little tables now but in those days they were long, just long trestle tables. Yes you did you, you, you erm you, you were sort of treated differently, yes you were definitely. [speaker002:] Did you get er different privileges as, as you became the fully qualified nurse then? [speaker001:] Yes,y yes, you, you were, you'd sort of passed all your exams so yo th they sort of had to make it a little bit easier. You, you were allowed to, to stay out but erm you, you had to get permission. You weren't sort of allowed just in and out when you wanted to, you had to get permission to stay out late. They liked to [LAUGHTER] keep tabs on you even then [].... [break in recording] [speaker002:] Did you stay at hospital after you'd finished your training? [speaker001:] Er about six months. Just, just a mere six months. [speaker002:] And then what did you do? [speaker001:] Then I er decided I'd take my midwifery. Er so I went to, to the Nursing Home, I don't know whether it's still there. It's a, it's a training, it was training school for midwives. And erm I was there for about a year. You, you could take, if you got your General your State Registered Nurse you could take your midwifery in a year. And erm that, that, first of all it was lectures and helping, you did get er patients coming in. There'd be about ooh twenty beds I think. And then er after that you, you went on the, on the district. Er you were called out at night and of course in those days you went round on a bicycle and [LAUGHTER] you, you went round with your little black bag strapped on the back. And you'd, you'd, you'd be on call and the babies nearly always come at night. Er and you'd er they'd er just bang on the door and, and call you and you had to be downstairs in five minutes. Er and cycle to where it was. When you were a student midwife you went with a proper midwife. And er when you'd got on a bit you delivered the baby but the midwife was there to see you didn't make any mistakes and, and really to t teach you to do it. It was the practical side of it. But erm yes sometimes you'd, you'd get there in time but you see they'd just, I, there, there weren't the telephones about in those days so you, you, you couldn't, everybody didn't have a phone, they couldn't ring in an and say I'm in labour. It'd mean waiting till, often till the, the father came back from work and then he'd have to er sometimes come right up to the er to the nursing home er to tell you that, that they was, that she was in labour and would we please come. Er sometimes the police, if, if there was a police station near, they would phone a message through but er quite of quite often and then you'd, you'd get there and often you'd [LAUGHTER] hear the baby was born by the time you got there []. But it, it erm it, it was hard work in those days. I, I can remember once I, I think it was Hill, or I think it was Estate, it was quite a new estate in those, in those days when I, when I was there. Erm and there was a hill out, that runs up to this housing estate out of, and it runs well through, really through the cemetery. There's a walled cemetery on one side and well in those days it had railings round the cemetery on the other side. I expect they all [LAUGHTER] went in the Second World War []. Er but I can remember going cycling up that hill, [LAUGHTER] and the [LAUGHTER] midwife [] was there as well, [LAUGHTER] and there was a most awful scream came from this er this cemetery. It was moonlight too. [LAUGHTER] And I have never got up that hill so fast in all my life []. And I, it wasn't until afterwards I realized it was cats caterwauling. It looked so weird in the moonlight and this scream coming up. Oh yes, I can remember that. You, you did get funny things like that that er that sort of rather lightened things. But er nowadays of course you don't get babies born in the homes like we did in, in, when I, when I was training. Er and often you'd go into a quite a poor home and you'd, you'd sort of er,th there wasn't the money about you see in, in those days. Nineteen twenty nine, it was in the nineteen thirties when there was the depression people just had not got the money to really provide for the baby as they would do, well they would do now. And you'd say, well now have you got a bowl. I shall want a bowl. And they'll say, well yes there's, there's this bowl. And you'd say, right, and you'd go the, after the baby was born you, you'd go back again to what we call the nur nursing, nursing up and you'd want the bowl again for the baby and you'd say wh where's the bowl and they'd say, oh well I think it's downstairs, we used it yesterday to make a pudding in. And so you'd have to go and find this bowl and sterilize it again. But you, you just had to fit in with things. And a lot of the mothers couldn't afford to buy the, the proper erm maternity er sanitary towels that they would have done nowadays. Er and er you'd say, well try and get on old sheet and wash it thoroughly and iron them the p cut it up and iron them with a hot iron. And that would more or less sterilize it, as sterilized as you'd, you know, you could ever get anything. You see there was no erm grants in those days like they have now, nothing, nothing at all. So they, they just had to try and save er from the, the man's wages and if, and, and if they weren't in work there was very very little money at all. And people did rally round. Er the people helped one another far more I think then than they do now because I suppose now it just isn't, it isn't necessary. People can manage. [speaker002:] And in those days most people did have their children at home, didn't they? [speaker001:] Yes, the majority of them did. Yes, the majority of them did. Unless er there was any er you know you, you were expecting any problems. Then of course th they would come in. But nearly always at home. Well I suppose th they felt it was the cheapest way of, of, of having them. Rather than co coming in to hospital. [speaker002:] And er who were the midwives employed by? [speaker001:] Er the County Council. Yes, they were appointed by the County Council so I sup and er I, I rather think that they, we never got paid but I rather think th they'd have to pay the Council something for the midwife's services. But er I don't remember that side of it at all. I didn't sort of erm I cer I, I certainly didn't touch you know any, any money at all. [speaker002:] And when you were a student erm who was paying for your training? [speaker001:] We had to pay for our own training in those days. Yes. The County Council er w would train you but you'd do your erm year's training and then you had to work for them for a year, I think it was a year or eighteen months. Er and er to sort of pay them back. And er you were on sort of reduced salary. They, they gave you enough to sort of live on. Er but er y they sort of got their money back that way. [speaker002:] Yes so all this time were you still living in a nurses home? [speaker001:] Yes, yes, yes. We were living on the, on the premises. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Can you remember any, any particular births either difficult ones or funny ones? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, I can remember one [],i it er she, she was a stocky little woman too. And she came in and she had this, this baby, and it was her thirteenth baby and it weighed fourteen pounds. And honestly it wasn't like a baby at all, a new baby, it was huge. And we called it the bull because it didn't cry, it sort of bellowed. It was louder than all the other babies [LAUGHTER] all put together []. And er during the, course in those days you stayed in bed for ten days, you were supposed to at any rate. And er all that, her other twelve children all came up to see her while she was there and they were beautifully kept, really well kept and well fed too. Er he was a bus driver. So she'd managed alright. I don't know whether she had any more, she said she hoped it was the last and [LAUGHTER] I should think she did, thirteen children to look after []. But you know medicine was, was very different in those days. I, I can remember erm when we ever had women in from the country they'd say, oh yes,y y my mother told me always to take raspberry, raspberry leaf tea. It always gives you a, an easy labour. Now whether there was any truth in it or not I don't know but a lot of country women always used to have raspberry leaf tea during pregnancy. Er and it always, they always used to say, oh yes you'll have a much easier labour if you do. Whether there was any truth in it or not I've [LAUGHTER] no idea []. But there wasn't the, the erm ante natal care that there is these days, I mean there were no erm when you went round to se if you were a midwife and you went round to see the prospective mother you'd say, now you are eating proper meals aren't you? Well that, that's as much as they ever got. You never said you know, are you eating fruit or are you taking vitamins? I mean nowadays everybody has vitamin pills whether they need them or not. They make quite sure they are getting enough vitamins. But in those days th they didn't. And er I mean there, there are not the relaxating exercises th that they have now. I don't know whether they they, I suppose they really didn't have the time. See nowadays there's so much more in the way of erm labour saving devices. In those days the washing was done in a good old copper boiling on a Monday and light the fire underneath it and this sort of thing. Er I don't suppose they had much time for, for relaxing and sitting down. They used to say, well I try and get my er my legs up for half an hour in the afternoon, but that'd be about as much as th they'd get in the way of rest. They carried on just the same as usual. [speaker002:] A at what point would you first erm see someone who was expecting a baby? [speaker001:] Oh about six months as a rule. They'd, they'd, they'd sort of say, they'd, they, they were supposed to book a, a midwife you see. And, and er then that midwife would po call and see them perhaps one well they call at six months just to make sure ev ev everything was alright. And th they'd examine the mother. And er a and then they'd go, they'd, they'd, if the mother was strong healthy and everything was going alright they'd probably leave it another month before they went. Or if they were worried about it then they they'd go sooner. But you'd perhaps go three or four times before the baby was born and er just see everything was alright and you'd know which way the baby was lying a and which way it was going to er you know come and if you thought there was going to be any problems well you know then you, you would sort of let the doctor know and, and he'd decide then. But erm I, I think a midwife, a good midwife, is every bit as good as a doctor because [LAUGHTER] she's doing it all the time []. And she er she, she a lot of midwives were extremely clever in those days. And you didn't have the erm all the aids that they have now. I mean they put something round the mother's tummy and they can see the heart beat beating, whereas we, if we wanted to know if the baby was alright and er it wasn't getting distressed you'd just put a, a cloth on the mummy's tum and put your ear down to it and hear it that way. There were not the aids that there were now. Erm [speaker002:] Would the er patients be seeing the doctor as well as the midwife during this few months before they were going [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] to give birth? [speaker001:] No. Not necessarily. No, you'd, you'd er you'd just if provided you, the midwife thought everything was going as it should, that was it. You, you ju just left it to the midwife. The doctors didn't come into it much at all. Er only if erm the mother was torn at all or, or if you didn't think the baby was coming as it should, there was problems there, then you, you would. You'd, you'd, the, the er the patient would have a d her own doctor. Well and you'd, you'd just send for the doctor. Or if she was torn then the doctor would come er and stitch her up. But that was another thing nowadays they, they just don't seem to bother at all if the mother gets torn, now in those days it was a terrible disgrace to g to er if you had a, had a delivery and the mother was torn. Er it just wasn't done and it was, it was bad midwifery, it was bad nursing to, to get a tear. Er and y you know if you sent for a doctor you were almost apologetic that the mother was torn. But nowadays they just don't seem to bother at all. It's just sort of a foregone conclusion. No it was erm I was going to say much more natural in, in those days, I suppose in a way it was more natural. I don't think the babies were any worse or the mothers were any worse. You see a working, well of course they do get them up nowadays, but in th you were supposed t to stay in bed for at least a fortnight after the mother was born but you a lot of these mothers used to hop out of bed when the midwife had gone, and, and I mean if they'd got two or three children and a husband coming in and they hadn't got a mother or a neighbour or somebody to come in and do the cooking,i I mean she'd just get up and get on with it herself. They'd have to. I mean it wasn't done, and nobody knew about it, and no one said anything about it but it was. [speaker002:] Were there any anaesthetics in use during childbirth? [speaker001:] Erm no, they'd usually give an anaesthetic if the mother had to be sewn or if it was a forceps delivery, but that was all. Er it was hardly ever er a mother was just sort of given something to ease the pain. Er er the principle was that erm th the birth of a child is, it is painful but it's not a pain too much for a mother to bear, that was the, the id the principle that they went on. That it was erm er it, it, it was bearable. And n not, not many of them re really complained. They were usually glad when it was over. But other than that, no. [speaker002:] I expect the conditions in some of the houses you went into were, were er pretty poor. [speaker001:] Yes. Th they certainly were,i it er i it, they were very very poor,th they, you got into some of the poor poorer homes. Er clean, er th they were nearly always clean but there was just not er the things there to use. That was the trouble, they just couldn't afford to provide them. And you just had to make do best way you could. [speaker002:] Do you think that this er affected the erm chances of the child living? [speaker001:] Er, yes, I suppose, I suppose it, it could have done if you get a sickly baby and, and a sickly mother. Er the baby probably wouldn't stand such a, a good chance. Er and of course you, you'd get er, those days they didn't have cots the mother had the baby in bed with her. And I, I can remember a, a mother, she was a very big woman, she rolled onto her baby and, and suffocated the baby. Now I, I can't imagine any mother doing it twice, but the first time they said it was an accident. The baby of course suffocated. Er er but the second time the police came and asked quite a lot of questions about it. When she did it the second time. But erm, no, it, it yo I think there were sickly babies. But the majority of them managed to, managed to thrive. [speaker002:] Did you erm ever experience any babies born with deformities? [speaker001:] Erm no, no, I didn't. They were er they were all fairly, fairly healthy babies. I only had one stillbirth. That was, that was the only, only time. Oh yes, we did, we did have one baby, yes, we did, in the er in the home. Erm and, and it didn't live very very very long at all. It was very badly malformed, the back of the head wasn't there at all. Erm the back of the skull er and it didn't last I think it lasted two or three weeks but that was all. But that was the only one. And erm I, when I was in, in hospital we did have triplets two of those lived alright though. But they were alright, they were just erm er sort o but you see in those days babies didn't live. Now if they said, if a baby was under five pounds it, it wouldn't survive. Er there were none of the incubators and this sort of thing for them like we've got today. And er th they just sort of, they jus just didn't, didn't live very very few of them did. And anything under five pounds well you didn't expect them to live. But er nowadays of course they do get a very much better chance. [speaker002:] Were the families much bigger then when you were nursing? [speaker001:] Yes, yes. I mean four, five, six children, yes. Erm ver very yes they were very much er much bigger. But now er with family planning and contraception er they are you know they're, they're far better really. Er the, the children are getting a better chance. They're erm sort of two or three in a family. Parents today are far more responsible, they're, they sort of say no erm we won't we'll only have the number of children we can give a good start in life to. Where which probably the parents when I was doing midwifery would have said the same thing but there was nothing they could do about it. There wasn't the pill in those days and there was simply er really nothing that the woman could do to stop herself getting pregnant. Er i it was alright if the man took precautions but if the woman didn't take precautions there was er I mean the man didn't, there was nothing the woman could do at all about it. So it was very very hard on the woman because it the the they just came one after the other. It was nothing five six you know children or even like that other one thirteen children. Erm but she, she was quite happy with her thirteen but I think a lot of the others w women, no,the they er it pulled them down terribly. [speaker002:] Was it any part of your job to give such contraceptive advice as you could to, to [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] families? [speaker001:] not really. But I mean often women would say, what can I do, I don't want any more babies, what can I do? Well all you really could do was say, well you'll have to ask your doctor and get him to have a talk with your husband. Er that was really all the advice we could give. There was nothing very much we could do about it. Now of course I mean the the woman can do something which is, it's, it's a very good thing. And of course sterilizing er you know for a man to be sterilized or a woman to be sterilized er you just it, just wo nobody ever, even considered it. It was never th not a, never even thought of. [speaker002:] Was family planning any part of your training at all? [speaker001:] No, not really, no. No it wasn't. [speaker002:] Erm... were you as a midwife ever approached about abortions? [speaker001:] Er n no. We, we were you know sort of asked, is there anything I can do to get rid of the baby? But er not really seriously because you see in those days it, it was illegal for anything like that. Th that was the, the hard part, there was nothing they could do about it at all. [speaker002:] Did people find ways of having abortions? [speaker001:] Yes. There were, there's always been the illegal er abortionist. And erm there used to be shops where they would, they'd sort of say, we can give you pills to bring it on, but I, I don't think they ever really did. Sometimes they'd, they'd try taking a good dose of Epsom Salts to see if that would start things you know but er there was very little, very little they could do. [speaker002:] I, I wonder do did doctors erm attempt abortions at all? [speaker001:] Erm not, they, they did a bit erm if, if it was you know really a medical, if it was really detrimental to the mother to have another one, er then they would. Or if sort of they started they'd, they'd always have them in hospital and, and finish it off properly. Erm but not very often no. You, if, if, if you, you, you got yourself pregnant that's it. Erm but it, it, it was very hard, very hard on these families because they worked really hard and the children kept on coming. It, it was very difficult. [speaker002:] After the babies were born a part of your job would be to help mothers erm train the babies. [speaker001:] Yeah, yes. Erm [speaker002:] What was the view of what a well trained baby should be? [speaker001:] Well we didn't do a lot of that er except gi giving advice wh when we just sort of er going round as a midwife. But after that I did take up private nursing. Erm and then you went for a whole month which was, you could do something in that time. You'd go er before the baby was born and then you'd look after the baby for the fi for a whole month. Er and you then you, you'd try your best and usually we, we could er get them to sleep the, the whole night through. They'd have the ten o'clock feed and then it, it'd sleep through till, till the six o'clock the next morning for the next morning feed. That's what you'd try to train him to do. Er but usually you'd have to give perhaps a drink of erm er water just, just warm water. Er just in the middle of the night. You, you had to in those days you had to sort of er use your common sense because if you had a big healthy baby it's a long while to go right through ten o'clock at night till six o'clock the next morning. But usually that's what you tried to do, that's what you aimed at doing. At giving the baby his last feed at ten and putting him down and hoping that he'd stay asleep till well half past five to six the next morning. So that when you left er the mother had had time to, to get up she hadn't had any bad nights. Er she'd got herself reasonably fit again er and then if she'd car take over the mo the baby you'd, you'd get, you'd train her if she didn't know, if she ha if it was the first baby. Er you, she'd take, you, you'd teach her to bath it and, and, and this sort of thing and look after him. Er and then you'd er say, right now you're on your own now, er and, and if you'd got the baby sleeping right through the night it was so much easier for her. She'd just er put him down at ten and, and that, that was that. In those days th there was a great do about babies sleeping in a room on their own. Well i i and if it cried well you let it cry, you just let it go on crying until it was so tired it went to sleep. Erm I, I never did [LAUGHTER] agree with that very much really. I don't think I could have stood it crying for hours on end []. Er usually if a baby cries it's usually trying to tell you something er and if, if by the time three or four weeks is up er you, you find out wh wh you know if there is anything wrong. But er usually a baby will be contented if it's being fed properly. Erm an and it's, it's er it's kept dry and it's comfy. Usually it'll be, it'll sleep from one feed to the next.... [break in recording] [speaker002:] Could you tell me how you came to move from midwifery into private nursing? [speaker001:] Yes. Well it was when I'd finished my midwifery training I certainly stayed on a little while in er in doing a bit of district work. s the only one I did do after we were married. I had my first bab theonly one I did do after we were married. I had my first baby oo and there were about ooh I should about think twelve nurses in the association. And we were either on call or, or we were sent out very quickly. All over the place we went really, not just in, all round and er farther afield as well if they were short of private nurses. And then of course I, I did quite a lot of children's nursing then, er but also general nursing as well, a bit o a bi some midwifery and er mainly ge general nursing. [speaker002:] Did you choose to move away from midwifery in that way or did er or was it just that er a job came up? [speaker001:] No. Erm I liked, I liked a bit more variety. [LAUGHTER] It was a, I think if you really did midwifery er when you were doing it privately there was always a doctor there i sort of in charge as well. Er but if not, if you are just doing midwifery I, I think you er really need to stick at it and just do that because it's, it's the more practise and the more babies you bring into the world the better you get at it. You know you sort of er get I think... yes I th I think you were sort of better at the job the mo the more practise you got, and the more you did it. But I liked er general work, it, it brought all sorts of things in. Different er different kinds of nursing. Er medical and then sometimes people with a lot of money if they needed a not a particularly dangerous operation they'd have it done in their own homes. Sort of fix a room up as a theatre and bring the, some nursing staff in. And then you'd stop on afterwards to er nurse them back to health again. Used to get all sorts. Erm I liked the children's nursing, I was always you know fond of children. We used to get all sorts of things. I could remember one case I had, er he'd be about eight. And er they said they wanted a nurse, this child had been very sick and they didn't quite know what was wrong with him. But he was very sick so er they wanted somebody to stay with him overnight at any rate so I, he wasn't sleeping, and I, he said what, I said to him, what do you think made you sick? So he said, well you won't tell mummy or daddy will you? I said, no, no, I won't tell them, not unless you say I can. He said, well you see I've been smoking. I smoked one of daddy's cigars. [LAUGHTER] And that's the reason he was so sick []. He soon got better again, but I, I never told his parents. They'd no [LAUGHTER] idea why they'd been so sick []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Was it better paid whe in private nursing than in midwifery? [speaker001:] Erm yes. But if you erm went to an ordinary general case it was three pounds a week you got sal er for your er salary. But you did get your keep you see th you, you more, you usually, usually you lived with the family. But if it was a very posh place er you'd probably have your meals with the housekeeper, which we used to enjoy [LAUGHTER] better really []. Er and then for midwifery you got four, four guineas a week. And out of that we paid half a crown ou in every guinea to the association because they got the jobs for us. So it was the er, Miss 's Nursing Association that we, we belonged to. And it was a fairly, fairly high, everybody was fully trained. It was erm, I used to enjoy it. Used to go for sometimes two or three weeks, sometimes if it was a maternity a month, but I used to enjoy it. It, you, you used to meet a lot of different kinds of people and er not only that you travelled about quite a bit as well. It was very interesting. [speaker002:] And you stayed in that kind of work until you got married,? [speaker001:] That's right yes I did. Yes [speaker002:] How, how did you meet your husband? [speaker001:] Well I, I met him actually through er I was nursing erm a baby, she was only three months old and she'd had, she'd caught, from her older sister she'd caught whooping cough. Er that's why I was there. And he was friendly with them, and I met him there. [LAUGHTER] That's how I first met him []. So er we were introduced and the first time he took me out er he proposed to me but it, it, it [LAUGHTER] took me six months to make my mind up []. But er that's how I met him. [speaker002:] Did you get much free time to go out at all? [speaker001:] No, very little. Er very little. If, if er if you were on a case er well if you could get out for a, for an hour in the afternoon for a walk, but that was about all. You were re really on call all the time. But erm it, it, I don't know, it we ne we never seemed to think anything about it at all. We, we perhaps would have a week or ten days in between cases. And then of course we could go out and er as much as we liked then. We, all of us had er a bed-sitting room of our own which we kept on between cases cos we had to have somewhere to live and erm and then of course we, we'd come back there and make [LAUGHTER] up for lost time really []. [speaker002:] Did you share a, a bed-sit or flat with someone else then? [speaker001:] No, no. I had, I had one of my own. It, it wasn't a very big one. It was a Put-U-Up bed and I think I paid, I think it was a guinea a week for it. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't very much [LAUGHTER] not in [] in those days. Er and then of course you erm you shared a kitchen, we shared a kitchen. There were one, two, three, three bed-sitting rooms and one kitchen between us. And we used to sort of arrange it when one wasn't cooking the other one would be you know and this sort of thing. We used to have quite a good time. [speaker002:] So were the, the people in the other bed-sits also nurses like yourself? [speaker001:] Yes, they were. They were, which was, well it was quite useful really because er you, you know you had to be, you were called out to a case suddenly er there was always somebody just to make sure you hadn't left any food you know in the kitchen that was going to grow whiskers until you got back. Er yes, it was, we, we were all very friendly together. We were all actually on the er same association so we were alright. [speaker002:] So then you got married then. [speaker001:] Yes, I did, yes. [speaker002:] And you gave up nursing. Was it immediately you got married? [speaker001:] Erm yes. I, I only took one case on after I was married er and that er that was a maternity case I'd been to the first baby. And they said, would I go er for the second, and I said, yes I would. But that's the only one I did do after we were married. I had my first baby ooh about ooh fourteen, fourteen or fifteen months after we were married, but I lost, I lost my first baby at three months. But then I had another er one within er two years and I had them both fairly quickly. So I had two now, a boy and a girl. Er and they're both married now so er they're, they're quite off hand. But no in those days if you had children er young children at any rate you, you, you never expected to go out to work at all. That you, you looked after the home and the children. They always sort of came first, they were the sort of centre of the family and everything rotated round them. Whereas now of course er they, they seem to grow up more quickly. And even during the Second World War er mothers with their children under the age of five er they weren't expected to do any war work at all. It wasn't until they were er sort of six or seven years old that er you'd, you'd took a part time job. But you were always allowed home when the children were not at school. It was far more the usual thing, women didn't go out to work very much, not after they were married. [speaker002:] Not even in jobs like midwifery? [speaker001:] Erm not unless there was a reason for it. You know if there were no children then probably th th they would, they might do then. But er ther there'd have to be a good reason for it if, if, if erm the nurses did go out, er afterwards. Sometimes they did when the children were grown up, or at least well off hand. Sort of left school. Er they night go back to it then if they really wanted to, or usually there was a reason for it. The husband had either died or something of that sort, or the husband was unable to work, then the mother would have to work to keep things going. [speaker002:] So the reason was always that people really needed the money rather than they just wanted to work? [speaker001:] Yes, I think they did. Yes I think that was the main reason. It, it was er, women in those days were quite content to s sort of stop at home. Er and just be a home-maker unless as I said if there was a reason for it, if they needed the money. Or some reason like that. Another would sometimes go back to work er if their son or dau well mainly the sons went to university and they needed the extra money for that. Er they probably would go back to, to work then, but it was usual for a married mother to stop at home. [speaker002:] Did you ever feel after having your own children that er you would have made a better midwife erm this experience than when you were single? [speaker001:] Er I think I should certainly have made a better nurse, yes, yes I think I should. Er I [LAUGHTER] when we were midwives we used to say that was the way to bring a child up but w when you'd had your own you sort of bent the rules a little bit more []. Er and I, I think I, I should have said if er la you know after I'd had my own, enjoy your babies while they're young because they grow up so quickly, whereas before it was a case of, don't pick them up when they, you know, if they cry leav let them cry. They're alright, they, it won't do them any harm. Whereas you know when mine began to cry it was a good excuse to [LAUGHTER] give them a bit of a cuddle []. [LAUGHTER] You looked at things differently, yes certainly you did. [speaker002:] Mhm.... Do you think that this sort of attitude is probably true today, that the kind of things we learn about child rearing are not the things we put into practise when we actually have children to bring up ourselves? [speaker001:] Yes, I'm sure it is. Yes. I, I think now er having brought my own up and now they've got children of their own and I've got grandchildren er yes my attitude is, is quite different. I can understand them far better now than I did then. I can enjoy them far better. And I, I think that is a very important thing really. Because I think that's where grandparent are important to children, specially these days when mothers do go out to work. Er you, you, you'll find that children will, grandchildren will tell their grandparents thing that they won't tell their own parents. Now I, I can remember doing that myself when I was young. I could tell my grandparents things that I wouldn't tell my, my father or my mother. But er I could always tell granny and granddad. And I'm finding now that my grandchildren are just the same. Their attitude to me, they'll tell me things, because they, they know that you, you, well won't repeat it, you won't tell on them. Unless you think it's really necessary and then you may drop a hint. But er yes I, I've certainly find, find that. I, I think grandparents have a very important part in a, in a growing child's life. Very important. In fact my grandchildren feel very deprived because they [LAUGHTER] they haven't got a grandfather. They've adopted one. Somebody [] somebody who lives quite near, they're a very nice old couple. So they said, well they didn't really want another granny but they, they wanted to adopt a granddad. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes, when was it that your husband died in fact? [speaker001:] He died eighteen years ago, so of course he never saw [speaker002:] He never saw them. [speaker001:] he never saw them at all, no. So they, they, they do, they do miss him. [speaker002:] What did your husband do when he was alive? [speaker001:] Well he was a photographer. Er he used to do, we used to have a round each morning and collect all the films from the chemists and then we developed and printed them and took them back at night. Er ooh we had quite a round er in and, all the, all the way round the centre of. Er and also he had a studio, he specialized, he was very fond of children, he specialized in children's photos. So we were kept pretty busy. [speaker002:] Did you help him in this work? [speaker001:] Yes, I did. I used to do all the bookkeeping, before I lost my sight. I did all the bookkeeping. And er all the ordering and dealt with the auditors and the bank and that sort of thing. I did all that, he hated that sort of thing. In fact he didn't [LAUGHTER] understand it at all. Which left him free to do all the practical work which he really liked. He also did weddings as well. Now he, he liked doing that sort of thing. And he was very, he was artistic too. But that was where the trouble came when I lost my sight he was left with both the practical side and the er bookkeeping as well which he didn't understand at all. [speaker002:] Yes. Where did you live when you first got married? Did you [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] have a place of your own? [speaker001:] Yes, we did. We had a little erm er house up in Grove, just er on the er edge of Park. Er and then when the Second World War started er we, we had to leave there and come down to the er sh to the sh shop really. It was a lock-up shop. Er and we lived above the shop then. Well we lived there er yes the whole, whole time, all our married life. He did move away for a while er and had er workrooms away from the, from the house and I just ran the, the shop. But erm when I lost my sight then he had to close that down and come back so we were all under one roof [LAUGHTER] again []. [speaker002:] Mm. Where was it that you had to move from during the War? [speaker001:] Well it, it I expected that he would have to go and I should have to manage on my own and it was quite er er a, a way to come down to the shop. We had a shop as well. Er and it was much easier to be living on the premises, that's what we felt at the time. Erm I think perhaps it was a good move in a, in a, in a way, I was, when the children did come along i you know I was, we were al I was all together under one roof. The business was there and, and I was there when he went. So it, it was it turned out for the best. [speaker002:] Did he go into the army? [speaker001:] No, he didn't go into the army. Erm he, I think what he really must have had was er a sort of mild form of polio when he was young and he'd got a shoulder, not completely paralysed but it was partially paralysed. So erm they wouldn't take him in the army but he, he was in the more or less he was, he was in the map making department. Which was we well rather up his er his you know his, his own work ph photography. It was all tied up together. He went down to and trained here and then he came back and they made all the maps there. They always knew where the next offensive was because they were making maps for them. [speaker002:] And meanwhile you were still running the business during the war? [speaker001:] That's it yes. I kept all the connections up. We couldn't do an awful lot because it was er er classed as a luxury business er and so we, we couldn't get an awful lot of photographic paper or films or anything of that sort but we managed to keep the connections up with what we could get. Er it wasn't too bad, it was there when the war ended. There was something to start building on again which was a good thing. [speaker002:] So do you mean that your husband was able to continue with this a bit as well as working for? [speaker001:] Yes. Just a bit, yes. He did he didn't do very much but I'd already learnt the business by then. Er I could er print and do the enlarging and develop the films. Erm so really and truly i i you know with what we'd got it was sort of carrying the business on in a very sort of low way and instead of going round collecting the work it was all done through the post. It was all postal work then. [speaker002:] Did people want any special kind of photos during the war that they hadn't asked for previously? [speaker001:] Yes. It was all er er sort of er er yes mainly snapshots we used to get of er new babies, children and this sort of thing. Er you see but the men a a at the front the that's what they wanted. Snaps to send to the er the fathers and er boyfriends er at, at the front, that's what they really wanted. Er anything special you know that sor children growing up and you know fathers not seeing them or wives having babies wh which you know they hadn't seen perhaps till they were two years old. So there was a lot of er, in fact we used to try to keep the films for er young couples with, with children. It was sort of, so few came through it was very much [LAUGHTER] sort of under the counter []. You, you kept them and you tried to sort of let people have them who you felt deserved them you know most. [LAUGHTER] It was very difficult []. But it was very difficult for these for young, young couples with the er er men at the front and perhaps they'd only just got married before the war and it was very hard lines on them. I often think er and then of course you see if, if they er the airmen, their wives used to try and get er digs near where the aerodromes were so they could see their menfolk. Er and I always used to think it must be extremely, they'd hear them going out at night and you know then count the planes coming back. I often think I wish you know we could capture some of those again I think it would jolly well I, I, I wish government could, could really sort of kn know what it was like. I don't think they'd be so anxious to [LAUGHTER] go to war if they did []. It was the young people th th that I think were hit the most. It was ver very hard on, on them. And er [speaker002:] Can you remember any particular incidents that happened during the war? [speaker001:] Erm no, well we were very lucky in, we didn't have an awful lot of air raids, we had it over the lace market and er and near. But er we, we didn't have any really bad air attacks at all. We were very fortunate but I do remember the guns used to go off and I, when my so [LAUGHTER] my son was born the, the guns were going off all the time from the castle. They, they we they had some guns on the castle and they were, I suppose there must have been enemy planes over. You could always, you, you always used to say we could tell the German planes coming over er they'd got a certain sound because they were so heavily ladened. And er you, you, you could hear them and used to say, oh yes, that's a German plane. But we were very lucky in, we, we didn't really have an awful lot of erm of air raids at all. [speaker002:] And as a mother at the time di do you remember having problems getting food and things during the War? [speaker001:] Er, yes. I i it wasn't easy but it was very fair. I suppose in the First World War, I don't remember an awful lot about it, we wer always seemed to have enough to eat but er I, I think the Second World War whatever there was it was fairly distributed. We were all rationed but we, we everybody got their fair share. And er really when you sort of l look at the children who were born during the war and were brought up during the war, they're all pretty strong and healthy. So th they couldn't er have done too badly. I mean bananas were, were, only children had bananas and er orange juice, you, you got that at the clinic and cod liver oil, terrible horr [LAUGHTER] horrible cod liver oil. But er they, they did sort of th it was fairly distributed there's no, eggs you'd get perhaps one egg a week on each ration book. And then they had a points system which meant that er you had so many points and you could, there were certain foods that were just on points and er you could choose to spend your points on whatever you wanted. You could get er pineapple jam, that was i tins of pineapple jam, that was one of the things. And tomato jam, which wasn't too bad really. But we've [LAUGHTER] never heard of it since []. Er and not many fresh eggs but we did get dried eggs which were, were, it wasn't a bad substitute but it [LAUGHTER] wasn't the same as a fresh egg [] but you could scramble them and you could use them for cooking but then you see there was very little fat. Erm you could get er er margarine. I think we had two ounces of margarine a week on each ration book, and butter I think we had an ounce of butter a week, and meat was very scarce.

[speaker001:] Hiya. [speaker002:] Hello. Oh oh here comes the monster. Here comes the monster. Well Miss come and have your head cut off. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Erm She's got asthma. Right. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] And she's got a blocked nose as well. Haven't you? [speaker001:] Aye. She's a cold it's, it's a viral it brings it on. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] But erm that, the inhaler that I've got, does nothing for [speaker002:] No? [speaker001:] her at all. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] She's had her erm she's had her adenoids out and all [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that. [speaker002:] Let's have a look in your brains. [speaker001:] for weeks. Nothing. Absolutely [speaker003:] Ears [speaker002:] That's a no. Your brains [speaker003:] Ears. [speaker001:] I was thinking [speaker002:] and your nose. [speaker001:] getting [speaker003:] Ears. [speaker001:] her vaccinated [speaker002:] And your nose. Let's have a look in your nose. See what's going on in here. [speaker001:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] [humming] Has your mum looked in here? [speaker001:] Yes. Thank you. [speaker002:] It's horrible. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes it is. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did you see that great big black thing coming out? That's probably a bit of her brains coming through. [speaker001:] Aargh. [speaker002:] I w wouldn't worry about it if I was you.... [speaker001:] Now I was told that I was trying to get an appointment at the asthma clinic but they couldn't get one for fortn another full week. Right? [speaker002:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker001:] So [speaker002:] She's, she's,sh she's got sinus [speaker001:] Sinuses. But this cough [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] comes on and it's [speaker002:] I'll show you. As soon as she lies down at night, this stuff runs from the sinus and [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] right down into her tubes. [speaker001:] Blocks. [speaker002:] all blocked Gets them all blocked up [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] and starts her cough. [speaker001:] Well er see she'll b she'll be left with this now this cough [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] for a long long time? [speaker002:] No she won't. [speaker001:] Sh er it's like a routine with her.... [speaker002:] We'll get that dried up for you. [speaker001:] You think so? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I would like [speaker002:] Oh. We will. [speaker001:] to be referred to [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] erm [speaker002:] Doctor [speaker001:] . But I saw a doctor there, a Doctor, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] he was excellent before Christmas. She had a whoop whooping cough. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And he did say to me he would like to have seen her again at and monitor this, this [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] er cough that she's got. Now I thought I would quite like to [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] get her referred there again. Cos [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] she was there a couple of years ago, two or three years ago. But I was pus pushing and p pulling of course I never saw the same doctor twice. But now I feels as if I've got a sh a name of a doctor [speaker002:] Aha. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] er out there. [speaker002:] We'll soon get that [speaker001:] If you don't mind. [speaker002:] Mm. And you wouldn't like your head cut off? [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] You're pretty miserable you know. I think you should. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] At least your mum would get peace and quiet. [speaker001:] Her tongue. Her tongue [speaker002:] Her tongue [speaker001:] would do. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Much better. Much better [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] thing. A great big needle about that length, and what I'd do is I'd freeze the back of her tongue [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] and then tie it up for about three weeks. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] Ooh. That's sounds [speaker001:] Hey that would be brilliant. [speaker002:] your mum thinks that would be great. [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I think so too. I think that would be wonderful. [speaker003:] No. It's just I want [speaker001:] least sensible she can get done as well. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Both. Both. [sigh] Ooh. Your mum should be so lucky. [speaker001:] Aye. You're right. [speaker002:] Shouldn't she? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You're right. They and they're and they're guzzling they're fighting with each other and oh.... [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I'm not the only one they've all got this cold haven't they? It's.... [speaker002:] Will you give this to your wee sister as well for me? [speaker001:] Oh. Come on. Get down. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Get your jacket on. [speaker002:] What age is your wee sister now? Sure? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Are you sure you're not kidding me on? [speaker003:] I I promise. [speaker001:] Er could you give me a prescription for Calpol? [speaker002:] Mhm.... [whispering] Er put your jacket on []. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Thanks. Oh. Could you tear this? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Shall I show you the big needle? For freezing [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] your tongue? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] This here. Great big long one.... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh. Here we are. Here it is. Right on the, there, and then you can't speak. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] No. No []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Today? [speaker001:] No. We, well you could send [speaker002:] direct to the house. [speaker001:] Well we'd send [speaker002:] Yeah. Alright. . Okay? [speaker001:] Okay. Thank you. Bye. [speaker002:] Goodbye Mrs. Bye.

[speaker001:] Come in. Come in. Come in. [Mary:] mix up there. [speaker001:] Aye. Well. [Mary:] She shouted, Mary, and two of us rose up. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I said to the other one, are you Mary too? She said, aye. I said, which one []? [speaker001:] Oh dear. [Mary:] .... [speaker001:] Well now. What can I do for you today? [Mary:] Oh it's just it's not getting any better. [speaker001:] You're still having trouble? [Mary:] Aye. And er last time I came it was Doctor and he changed [speaker001:] Yes. [Mary:] the tablets, and it's even worse now. And he put me off the [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] and I don't feel the same for off of that. I feel as if I have to use my spray more.... I seemed right doing, alright drying my feet now and not my. [speaker001:] You shouldn't have to use your spray more Mary because that's [Mary:] Mhm. Well I seem to be all tight [speaker001:] Right. [Mary:] here. [speaker001:] Right. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] I know how it is? [Mary:] My chest. [speaker001:] Aye. I know how to do this. We'll [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] get you sorted out. [Mary:] Aha. Even just, usually I used to maybe just have it once. Sometimes I didn't even need it at all I could walk about shopping and everything. [speaker001:] Aha. [Mary:] And this I've had to take it twice while I've been doing some shopping now.... I feel as if my, it's funny it's not a pain but it's like my, I'm just going like that [speaker001:] Aha. Right. [Mary:] Aha.... And he put me off of that the other ones you gave me with the, what was it?... Hexapol or something? [speaker001:] Hexapol [Mary:] Aye. And you [speaker001:] Yes. I, with, with this Monit [Mary:] Aye. [speaker001:] that he gave you [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] that would have fought with the Hexapol There would have, there would have been a reaction between [Mary:] Aye. [speaker001:] the two [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] so that you you're safer without that. [Mary:] Without that the ma [speaker001:] without the Hexapol And you're better [Mary:] I've a [speaker001:] taking the Monit [Mary:] Aye well the Hexapol with me. it wasn't doing me any good because it was [speaker001:] It wasn't doing any good. [Mary:] still sore but it was still the same even with that. [speaker001:] Even with that. Right. [Mary:] Mhm.... [speaker001:] Let's put you on this stuff and that'll get your circulation. [Mary:] At least they have spray now had a spray I don't know how long it is I've had it. And that's how I'd be [speaker001:] You're [Mary:] I mean I never went through it much, but this last fortnight [speaker001:] This is your. [Mary:] I've been using it all the [LAUGHTER] time. get another one []? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah. No bother. No bother at all [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] that.... [Mary:] It's usually in after you go I was never near [LAUGHTER] the doctor myself []. [speaker001:] Well that's [Mary:] And this way he gets him a good life. If they hadn't had tha the accident to his [speaker001:] Yes. [Mary:] it was on the er the femur? [speaker001:] his femur that's [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] right. [Mary:] And that's er bosses are after meeting and this is the one that's er [speaker001:] That's going away. [Mary:] that's sore. That's going away. [speaker001:] Well let's [Mary:] I feel that though I'd been dawdling it wouldn't have [LAUGHTER] been so bad []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] let's cure you. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Let's cure you. [Mary:] Ah. What do [speaker001:] So stop, stop, stop, stop your Monit [Mary:] Stop the Monit [speaker001:] Stop them altogether. [Mary:] Aha. And what about [speaker001:] And s [Mary:] the Batol [speaker001:] Mm? No. Don't touch the Batol No. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] These are pink tablets yo you start [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] taking them one in the morning and one at teatime and one at bedtime. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] That's three times a day. [Mary:] Three times a day. [speaker001:] Three times a day. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] And, and come back up and see me in in three [Mary:] Aye. Aye. [speaker001:] weeks and [Mary:] and they'll you know that er they've got? [speaker001:] No. You stop [Mary:] Wee, wee pink ones? [speaker001:] stop that. [Mary:] Would Deborah need to then? I've been taking them all the time. [speaker001:] No. You can stop them now. [Mary:] Stop the. [speaker001:] Stop, stop the now. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yes. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Stop that altogether. [Mary:] And I've got all these other pills I meant to bring them out and hand them in at the chemists [speaker001:] Ah. First time you're passing. [Mary:] Aye. the chemists even? [speaker001:] That'll do fine Mary. [Mary:] Aha. the aches [speaker001:] the aches have been all [Mary:] I all got, I all got, no. I used the last of that er Minit or whatever you call it, Monit but I've got in the house and I've got [speaker001:] Aha. Well first time, first time you're coming up to the supermarket, drop it, drop them in [Mary:] I just drop them in here? [speaker001:] Aye. Drop them in. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] No, no harm done. [Mary:] Because I say it's stupid you know to destroy them or fling them away [speaker001:] Oh aye. [Mary:] or that. [speaker001:] Oh aye. Eighteen pounds for a box is [Mary:] Aye. I know. Aha. [speaker001:] expensive so [Mary:] throw I meant in fact to put them in my bag when I was coming here and I forgot. [speaker001:] First time you're coming. First time you're coming up. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No bother. Thank you. [Mary:] Thank you. [speaker001:] But that should do the trick Mary [Mary:] And I [speaker001:] and it'll settle it'll settle this as well. [Mary:] And will I come back again or will I? [speaker001:] Three weeks. [Mary:] Three weeks? Do you work? You know [speaker001:] back here to see how [Mary:] Aye. [speaker001:] you're doing. [Mary:] Because it's alright doing my round the ankle and all? [speaker001:] Yeah. Well we need to [Mary:] Sore. [speaker001:] get skip ropes for you. [Mary:] I need to I need exercise. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right Mary. [Mary:] Right. Thank you. [speaker001:] Okay. Cheerio now. [Mary:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Good evening [Mary:] Hello. [speaker001:] Mary. [Mary:] She said when I came in, there's only two in front of you. And you know I've been sitting an hour.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] She says, there are two in front you.... [speaker001:] Now then what can we do for you this time? [Mary:] Well... remember you gave me tablets for this leg? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] Well, was it last Tues? Last Tuesday night, my leg was awfully sore and home at night. See that there? That was... that there was a lump the size of a tennis ball. That and it's still, that was last Tuesday night. It was the size of, it was a way up. [speaker001:] Aha. [Mary:] And my leg's been that sore and badly swollen I just don't [speaker001:] That's the clavitis again. [Mary:] Oh no. Not again.... Is that what it is? [speaker001:] Ah. But it's just on the surface it's not, it's not the same as the other one. [Mary:] It's [speaker001:] Aha. That's right. [Mary:] Well you should have seen the size of it. [speaker001:] Yeah. Tt they're an awful worry. [Mary:] And my chest's been right sore. And this about half past two the day I, I was that sick, vomited and then I took the bile [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] and that just finished me. [speaker001:] You're having a great time. [Mary:] I don't know what's wrong with me. [speaker001:] Mm. [Mary:] I just don't know what's wrong with me.... Oh but you should have seen that. On my conscience, me. I had a feeling that's what was you know the clavitis [speaker001:] Yes. [Mary:] back [speaker001:] Oh aye. [Mary:] but, cos my knee's awfully sore. [speaker001:] Yes. Sore. It's bound to be. [Mary:] Aye.... But that they see this, mind I told you before that this brace was awfully sore and that painful. It's still the same.... You know? [speaker001:] In spite the tablets? [Mary:] Aye. It's [speaker001:] They're not making much difference? [Mary:] It's just all sore and... I've been taking a pain here this week. [speaker001:] Well. We'll need to stop your Tagamet We'll need to switch your Tagamet over Mary. [Mary:] What to? [speaker001:] To Zantac or [phone rings] er Losec Excuse me. [Mary:] Well I mean [speaker001:] [speaking on the telephone] [Mary:] No. I think I'd rather have my Tagamet because of that [speaker001:] Well th the Tagamet will only make this worse Mary. [Mary:] Will it? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] I feel done today. You know? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] I really feel [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mary:] done.... [speaker001:] See your Tagamet that's one of the side effects it, you get very occasionally with it. It gives you tightness [Mary:] Ah. [speaker001:] soreness in your breast. [Mary:] Oh gosh it's been murder.... [speaker001:] Er... I th I think er y I think you should give yourself a at least a week without it to get the a chance to get away. [Mary:] Without what? Tagamet [speaker001:] Without your Tagamet [Mary:] Aye. Okay then. [speaker001:] Cos er it's only gonna gradually get worse and worse [Mary:] Aye. [speaker001:] and worse [cough] if you keep in with it. [Mary:] I just feel done today I've never felt like this before you know? But I just feel real... mm.... But this er leg annoyed me last week because you seen the size of the lump.... And it's not knock I hadn't knocked it or anything [speaker001:] [cough] No. [Mary:] No. [speaker001:] No. No. It just comes up itself. [Mary:] Aye.... [whispering] and Agnes' []. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] Oh and give her that ointment please, I haven't got it down and put this for the nurse. [speaker001:] Mm........ Right. I've given you something to get that leg sorted Mary. [Mary:] Aye. [speaker001:] You take it after your food. [Mary:] After my food. [speaker001:] Two. Two a day. [Mary:] After my food? [speaker001:] After your food. [Mary:] Okay. [speaker001:] And that'll get that scattered for you.... [Mary:] It's funny it's every so, every other year this starts. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mary:] It was eighty six when I was sent up to with it. [speaker001:] That's right. [Mary:] And then it finished up with lots of blood in leg so [speaker001:] Well let's hope it's [Mary:] I'd get pretty annoyed you know? [speaker001:] Aye. We'll stop it going to that.... How's Mrs doing? Is she [Mary:] Oh is sh [speaker001:] just the same? [Mary:] See the hands she had? Well the nurse has been coming in every second day. She's got them pretty well cleared up. But oh my my [speaker001:] Was she scratching it right enough? [Mary:] Oh she was scra. [sigh] Oh my my. I never saw hands like them.... [speaker001:] And er [Mary:] And that tablet, that ointment that's for the doctor. The nurse.... I don't feel my my dinner but I don't feel [speaker001:] No. When you're like that. Certainly wouldn't. Here I've given her four tubes [Mary:] Okay. [speaker001:] of that. [Mary:] Right then. Thanks very much. Yes. That's fine. They'll [speaker001:] That'll keep her going for a wee while. [Mary:] keep her going. [speaker001:] Aye. And you look after yourself. [Mary:] I've been looking after myself of course and I got together her lunch at sits, I sit all the time. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mary:] But I don't go back out again [speaker001:] Oh no. No. No. [Mary:] till I'm gone home [speaker001:] Oh aye. [Mary:] and sometimes if some of folks are round they give me a lift down you know? [speaker001:] Mm. Well that's not so bad if you're getting a wee bit of help with her but er she's a [Mary:] [whispering] Oh she's do you know she's and she'll do as she, she'll do as she pleases [].... And she sits and she talks and she talks and she keeps repeating the same thing again. You know you because she's not talking to me. And a wee. I could her. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] How long will that take to go away? Never mind anything else? [speaker001:] three or four days Mary. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker001:] you'll be back to your usual. [Mary:] I'll come back if it doesn't help her. [speaker001:] Oh you'll be back. No doubt. No doubt about that. I'll still be here. [Mary:] Anyway thank you very much right? [speaker001:] I'll still be here. [Mary:] Right. [speaker001:] Right Mary? [Mary:] Cheerio. [speaker001:] Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Can I give you out there.... Er for five thirty. That one that's waiting.... Thank you very much. What happened was that it was the son and I couldn't get [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] he was given and he's never had it in his life []. The wee man must have asked for it.... [speaker002:] No. He probably told you that just to explain things. [speaker001:] But it was a wee thing. He wouldn't. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] But the computer would do it. It would get our own computer printout. [speaker001:] I don't know [whispering] []... But pandemonium this afternoon. How do you remain so calm when there're all these things? [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] How do you manage it? [speaker002:] What's the point in getting them all stuffy about it? [speaker001:] But there's hundreds of people out there. [speaker002:] Ah. Take it as it comes. Just [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker002:] take it as it comes. [speaker001:] that. Oh aye that's the one Sandra's it should have been a hundred or something. [speaker002:] Mm. Don't know why because it just means he has to take [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker002:] it three times a day instead of once.... [speaker001:] Thank you very much Doctor. I'll give them to [speaker002:] Right. Jus [speaker001:] copy to you the first time [speaker002:] Yeah. Please.

[speaker001:] Come in.... Hello. Oh. Now then. What's the trouble today? [speaker002:] Oh. [Pete:] The whole family I'm afraid but er [speaker001:] Out of the way. Out of the way. [Pete:] Sit over there by the. That stomach of hers is causing her er diarrhoea and sickness [speaker001:] right. [Pete:] and erm she's had it for a couple of days but we thought she was getting over it this morning. Basically she's been giving her Diarralite And now she's I mean she's [speaker002:] She can't even keep water down Doctor so she's certainly not gonna keep that down. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Cos she's had it since Wednesday. [Pete:] What the Doctor. [speaker001:] Hello. hello? [Pete:] the Doctor. [speaker001:] Has your dad not been [speaker002:] She's [speaker001:] well either?... [Pete:] No. But I recover quickly that's all. [speaker002:] I've had it bad. I've got out me bed to come up here. [speaker001:] Mm. Right. Let's have a look at your tummy to see what you've poor old tummy. [speaker004:] [crying] [speaker002:] She's very erm fractious. [speaker001:] I think she's. [speaker004:] [crying] [Pete:] You're alright darling. [speaker001:] When er just before she's sick [speaker002:] It's pains in her stomach. [Pete:] She's I mean obviously er erm I mean she's com complaining of a sore tummy. She's able to but [speaker002:] But she's not had the diarrhoea and I have. [Pete:] Oh no. Thank goodness. Well I didn't get diarrhoea with it I just got sickness. [speaker001:] She's gonna get the diarrhoea. [speaker002:] Really? [speaker001:] Yeah. She's sore round here.... [speaker002:] She screams when she's sick. [speaker001:] Mm.... [speaker002:] I know the feeling. [speaker001:] Mm.... She's.... yeah but she's, she's going to, she's gonna have diarrhoea because you can feel [speaker002:] Mm. I think that's what wrong. She's not been. [speaker001:] and nothing, nothing coming through. Right.... Oh. Er she can't keep the Diarralite down? [speaker002:] She's not keeping anything down. [speaker001:] Right.... [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] She's what a year and a half now? [speaker002:] She's just under two Doctor. [speaker001:] She's just t coming up two.... [speaker002:] How long's this gonna last? [speaker005:] [sigh]... [speaker001:] This? Not much longer.... Now do you have any er ice lollies? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Any ice-cream? [Pete:] Yeah we have. Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Teaspoonful of ice-cream and just p have you any, anything that y you can dip it in? [Pete:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And just dip it in and let her suck it. Don't let her take any great amount of it. Just a little with her tongue. [Pete:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Just to give her stomach something to work on [speaker002:] Mhm. [Pete:] Yeah. [speaker001:] without overloading it cos [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] if you overload it, you'll get it all back. [speaker002:] Mm. [Pete:] Yeah. [speaker001:] A small amount table jelly ice-cream, ice lolly. [Pete:] Anything like that. [speaker001:] Anything like that. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Pete:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Anything you can break up, and just give [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] her a very small amount. Same with yourself.... Just a very very small amount. Just take it just let it melt in your mouth. You don't, don't need to take i enough to have a mouthful or anything. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Just a, don't go buying Lucozade, don't go buying [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] anything like that.... [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Cos it won't make any difference. There's nothing in there that there isn't in straight lemonade. [Pete:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right. Er every now and again a wee sugar cube. Open her mouth and just let her suck it. [speaker002:] Give her a bit of energy. [speaker001:] Yeah. Build up her strength. Build up her strength. But just anything cold anything goes down very easily. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Just take it they don't have any problem with it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] a small teaspoonful of this stuff [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] just in the corner of her mouth. Don't force it down, just in the corner of her mouth. She'll swallow that down nice and gently and it'll coat her tummy and it will gradually work its way through into the bowel and quieten them down as well. [speaker002:] Is this the medicine you're giving her? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes.... Ju as long as you don't overload her. This is [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] this is the one thing that her system can't stand. [speaker002:] It's when they retch er [speaker001:] That's right. They try to empty what it is in their stomach and it [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] just comes out. [speaker002:] That's what I was doing last night. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well... just out to the shop and get some ice-cream or make a table jelly when you go home. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And just have a little of it every half hour? Every hour? If you feel like it. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] It doesn't matter what the flavour is whether it's strawberry, orange anything. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Er quite a good thing is this er sorbet stuff. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] It's nice is that. It has a tang, so that youngsters particularly, quite, quite like the taste of it because they don't taste anything all their taste buds [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] if you look at her tongue. Pure white. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Her taste buds are all covered. Can't taste anything. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But if you can get them with just a, an orange or a lemon sorbet. Just a wee drop of that instead of the ice-cream [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] they can taste it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Pete:] Yeah. She hasn't been eating and that's unusual [speaker001:] No. [Pete:] for her. [speaker001:] No. Aye. No. They they they don't. [speaker002:] this, this, this bug we've got it's causing the pains? [speaker001:] Yes. Oh aye. Gives, gives her the cramps all the way across here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] All the way across here. [speaker002:] That's it. Yeah. Mhm. [speaker001:] that's why there's two or three minutes and then sick. [speaker002:] Aye. That's what I had last [speaker001:] Or we have diarrhoea. [speaker002:] night. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Aye. We either have, we either have sickness or we have diarrhoea or. [speaker002:] I had both. [speaker001:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] []. [Pete:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well I'm, I'm the only one actually. I've had both. [speaker001:] Yeah. Aye. [Pete:] We maybe jus just haven't got it severe cos you've just had that operation. [speaker002:] I've just come out of hospital. [speaker001:] What have you been doing? [speaker002:] I had a prolapse bad.... So the retching was worrying me a bit. [speaker001:] Well [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker002:] Cos I've still got stitches. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You get started on, on the ice-cream [] and the [Pete:] I was just coming up to Scotland for a holiday. [speaker002:] I'm not coming here any more. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What with the weather and this I'm going home again. [speaker001:] I'll tell you the weather down south is just as bad. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I know. We left it didn't we? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. And [speaker001:] I was listening to the radio when I was out in the car this morning and it's coming down [Pete:] Same over it's just coming across the country isn't it? [speaker001:] It is. [speaker002:] If she gets any worse Doctor? [speaker001:] No she won't. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No problem. [Pete:] You think it's this bug? [speaker001:] No problem. Yeah. Aye. And if you give her, just stick her to small amounts for the next couple of days [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and [whispering] [] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. Don't, don't force her that's the big secret [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because if you force them at all, [whispering] it doesn't work []. [speaker002:] Thanks very much Doctor. [speaker005:] There's that. [Pete:] Right. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] You'd best carry her then Pete. [speaker001:] No problem. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker005:] Bye bye. Bye bye. [speaker001:] Bye bye. [Pete:] she's [speaker002:] Bye. Thanks a lot. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Bye. [speaker001:] Bye now.

[speaker001:] Come in. [speaker002:] Hello.... [speaker001:] Hello what can we do for you sir?... [speaker002:] It's this shoulder stuffed up again. [speaker001:] Having trouble again? [speaker002:] Aye. headaches [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know they're getting worse and worse and worse. I think it's the. Wasn't it or something you gave me? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] That was January. [speaker002:] Oh aye.... [speaker001:] [whispering] Right []. [speaker002:] But now it's actually spread you know th the pain seems to be spread all right up here. [speaker001:] ? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Ah. Well that's right enough what I thought. It's been a neural neuralgia right enough. [speaker002:] Mm.... It's when I go to lie down at night you know that's it. and then the headaches just start. You know? [speaker001:] When, when you were taking the was it... better? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No change at all? [speaker002:] No. No change. No. [speaker001:] No change at all. Right.... I don't want to give you anything that's gonna knock you... silly or [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] dopey with it or anything like that. [speaker002:] [whispering] Mm []. [speaker001:] I want to get the right sort of thing for you.... [speaker002:] You know I'm going around lightheaded with it y you know and dizzy with it you know? [speaker001:] Yeah.... Tt er... [speaker002:] been reading too much in this Sunday Post. She's got me this and that and all the rest of it you know? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mm.... But I don't know what you've got without waiting for any I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. It's er [speaker002:] I'm still trying to give up the cigarettes you know? I got those patches.... So... Mm. Do these patches seem alright though? [speaker001:] Have you seen? Yes. [speaker002:] Aye and they're [speaker001:] Oh. Patches are fine. [speaker002:] Are they? [speaker001:] Aye. There's nothing wrong with them. It's very difficult to do er two things at the same time. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Very difficult if you've got, and you know giving up is fine [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] if you haven't got a broken ankle or a sore, sore [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] shoulder or [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] headaches or, fine. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] do it. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] But when you've got something else that's hard. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] That's hard. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Even with the patches. [speaker002:] I went onto er you know rolling my cigarettes up myself so I wouldn't be [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] smoking as much. I started blaming that for the headaches. They just seem to come on you know? [speaker001:] Mhm. Well don't, don't do anything. Just get rid of one thing before you start before you start doing anything else.... [whispering] []... [speaker002:] [whispering] Mm []. [speaker001:] Here we are now. That's that. [speaker002:] Actually travel this. [speaker001:] Ah. Yes it'll, it'll travel right down to the tips [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] of your fingers. [speaker002:] Aye. If you feel that there's [speaker001:] Are you tonight? [speaker002:] No. I'm on er I signed off [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] too right. [speaker001:] Okay. Fine. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You get started on that and we'll see you in about four weeks [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] and see how it's doing. [speaker002:] Okay then. [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [speaker002:] Thank you very much then Doctor. [speaker001:] Okay. Cheerio then.

[speaker002:] Of course.... Of course. It wouldn't be the same place if I wasn't. It wouldn't be the same place if I wasn't. . I never should have. What's this?... [Alec:] Oh she's.. Give me strength. er it was my stomach. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Alec:] I think I must have picked up a virus. [speaker002:] Sure did. [Alec:] Cos I was passing it... so she gave me a couple of tablets. She er gave me some. [speaker002:] Mm. Yeah.... [Alec:] Still a bit of diarrhoea in the mornings. [speaker002:] Still a bit loose in the morning are you? [Alec:] Aye. Still loose in the mornings.... That's the worst I've ever had mind.... the older you get th y you imagine it's worse. You know?... [speaker002:] Once it's past twenty one. [Alec:] Aye. Well you maybe think it's worse. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Alec:] [LAUGHTER] in the morning but then after the diarrhoea stopped it was a kind of sickness you know []? You... you'd bru you'd got nothing left there to do anything else with cos you'd [speaker002:] That's right. [Alec:] And you were [speaker002:] That's right. [Alec:] feeling as it were ready to come up the way you were... swallowing it you could feel it. Oh it's.... The wife come in she stays up around the corner and keeps an eye on the on a Saturday. on a Sunday though. I've made a soup. .... She says I don't know.. So when Bobby says, are you gonna give me, are you gonna give [speaker002:] Aha. [Alec:] Aye.. I tell her and she says, well look, get another line from your doctor. Er... I phoned her at work at the tribunal. [speaker002:] Aha. [Alec:] I phoned her and I says to her I says,. She said, well look, go back to your doctor she says. Don't quote me, she says. [speaker002:] Mm. [Alec:] I said, if you'd have said what you should have said at the bloody tribunal. [speaker002:] One of these capsules after your breakfast in the morning [Alec:] Mm. [speaker002:] and after your cup of tea at five o'clock. [Alec:] Right. [speaker002:] settle. [Alec:] Will it? [speaker002:] Settle the. [Alec:] a cup of coffee that I'm ready to get on. [speaker002:] That's right. [Alec:] First thing [speaker002:] Yes. [Alec:] make a cup of coffee in the morning you know. [speaker002:] Aye. Well that's why you're to take that as soon as you get, as soon as you start morning. [Alec:] this morning what I'd done this morning was just dancing about cos I, I had to go to the toilet I couldn't wait [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Alec:] [LAUGHTER] and I was dancing about [] and I said, I'm not gonna make it. with that cup of coffee and, oh yes you are.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Oh [] [Alec:] She's a bad woman. [speaker002:] She's a bad woman. [Alec:] She is. I was purple. [speaker002:] That's terr oh that's terrible. Oh that's hard. [Alec:] And that's. [speaker002:] Aye. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Alec:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker002:] Right Alec. [Alec:] Cheerio then. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Cheerio now []. [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] Come in. [speaker002:] Oh something that Dr did you not want to speak to the team about John? [speaker001:] Yes I did. [speaker002:] They're on line one. [whispering] []. [speaker001:] [phonecall starts] [telephone conversation ends]

[speaker001:] Good evening. [speaker002:] Good evening. [speaker001:] awful busy today. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Murder? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well and what can I do for you young lady? [speaker001:] Erm... well actually what I wanted was a repeat of my prescription, but I wondered why the last time I had one I got sixty instead of a hundred that I got before? I wondered if there was a reason, if they were trying to put me off it or not [LAUGHTER] but [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It's down here as a hundred. [speaker001:] No I only got sixty. I haven't got the bottle with me because I was away.... I only got sixty and I didn't get any the last time. have sixty but I didn't get any the last time. When was that? No. I've had a prescription since then Doctor.... [speaker002:] [sigh]... [whispering] Let's see what they've been doing to you [].... [speaker001:] It finishes tomorrow and it was for fifteen [LAUGHTER] days []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Tt. [whispering] It's not gonna tell me [].... [speaker001:] [whispering] []? [speaker002:] It doesn't like you at all. [speaker001:] Oh dear. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I'm not here []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You're invisible. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh gee thanks []. [speaker002:] You're invisible. [speaker001:] [cough] No just a wee bit off not invisible completely thank you. [speaker002:] Ah. According to t according to this you're invisible.... [speaker001:] [cough]... [speaker002:] . Tt. Stupid machine. Can't be doing with that way down there.... That should... it's found you at last. [speaker001:] It's found me. Oh so I am [speaker002:] at last. [speaker001:] here. After all these years I'm definitely [speaker002:] Still alive. [speaker001:] here. [speaker002:] Still alive.... [speaker001:] That's given me all sorts of things [LAUGHTER] has it []? [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] I don't know why. I don't why it's changed.... I don't know why it's changed at all. [speaker001:] Look there's one that's not in there.... The last one I got is not in there.... [speaker002:] Well I don't know why it's been changed because [speaker001:] Well I, that's really the only reason I came up was because I wondered if they wanted to take me off it, you know if you wanted to change it, because i it isn't working. Cos see if I miss one my toes are absolutely giving me gyp. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] ? [speaker001:] Yes I have. [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker001:] Now see the? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] W does it matter if I don't take three a day?... No. That's alright. Cos that's why I didn't get any when I got my last prescription because I'd been trying to just sort of even take one [speaker002:] As long as you're [speaker001:] at bedtime. [speaker002:] as long as you're comfortable with [speaker001:] That's alright then. That's fine. [speaker002:] okay by me. [speaker001:] Oh and can I have as well? I've only got a week's [LAUGHTER] supply of that left so [] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] [whispering] Well [] nobody thanks you for doing without that. [speaker001:] Er no. My hands and my feet [LAUGHTER] don't certainly []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh dear. Nobody else suffers? [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] Only yourself? [speaker001:] only me. Yes. Exactly. [speaker002:] Nobody else? [speaker001:] And grossly so. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Here we are then. [speaker001:] Right. Thank you. Right. Thanking you and have a nice Easter. [speaker002:] Okay. I will. [speaker001:] And you're on call? [speaker002:] . Oh I will. [speaker001:] Oh you're obviously on call. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right. I hope I don't have to [LAUGHTER] call you out then []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] fingers crossed. I've got my fingers crossed. [speaker001:] For a quiet time. [speaker002:] Yeah. Right. Okay now. [speaker001:] Thanks very much. [speaker002:] Bye.

[speaker001:] Come in. [William:] How do you do. [speaker001:] Hello. Now then. What can we do for this young man? [William:] I to see you my chest. [speaker001:] Your chest? [William:] Er it's, I cannot get to sleep for nothing for it. [speaker001:] What? [William:] And every time I cough I think that's just bringing it back on again. [speaker001:] Right.... Are you getting anything coming up though? [William:] No. No. No blood or nothing it's just er [speaker001:] No, no phlegm? Nothing like that? [William:] green. [speaker001:] Green stuff? [William:] Aye. [speaker001:] Green stuff. Right.... [William:] I'm not getting any sleep at all. I, I maybe fall asleep for maybe an hour or two and then I'm woken and I'm coughing all the time. And I think it's irritating my hip again you know? The [speaker001:] Yes. Oh aye. [William:] coughing?... That funny stuff you gave me you gave me? [speaker001:] Yes. [William:] Well what I've been using is Vick and it seems to be burning. Into me but it's, I don't know if it's doing me good or bad.... [speaker001:] Now a teaspoonful in the morning. Teaspoonful at tea time. And two teaspoonsful before you go to your bed. And that'll get the inside of that sorted out for a wee while again young William. [William:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay? [William:] Right. Thank you. Eh? [speaker001:] Have you got your insurance line alright? [William:] Er I don't know I, I, I don't know when it is. I think it I think it's a few months to go yet. I don't know. [speaker001:] Got a wee while to go. [William:] Aye. It's a year one wasn't it? [speaker001:] Oh aye. Six months to go then. [William:] Oh [speaker001:] Six months to go eh? Right ho. Right. [William:] See you later. [speaker001:] Cheerio now. [William:] Cheerio.

[June:] Good evening. [speaker002:] Hello. [June:] Hi. [speaker002:] What can I do for you? [June:] Right, Doctor I'm here for a er prescription for Endoril L A [speaker002:] Pink? Pink capsule? [June:] Well I'll tell you I, I, I was here last month and you know Doctor? [speaker002:] Mhm. [June:] She said she would put on the computer or something like [speaker002:] Mhm. [June:] that for three months. [speaker002:] Yeah. [June:] Now I couldn't rem quite remember. She told me to come back to get my blood pressure checked again. [speaker002:] Right. [June:] And I couldn't remember whether she said at the end of the three months or [speaker002:] End of the month. [June:] just now? I'm not quite sure [speaker002:] E every month June. [June:] Basically that's why I'm here. [speaker002:] Mhm. [June:] For the prescription and to get it checked.... [speaker002:] Slip your coat off and we'll get the pressure checked for you. Ah........ [whispering] Slip that round your arm. That's it. [] Right. That's okay.... There we are. There. Just let your arm rest on there.... doing very well.... You're not getting any funny fits from that at all, June? [June:] Er no. [speaker002:] Nothing?... Ah. That's excellent. Excellent. No problem.... [June:] It did mention... in the, the sort of packet that maybe feel cold with cold hands and what have you. But I think I could live with that. I haven't actually noticed that there's [speaker002:] Aye. Y you'll find [June:] no [speaker002:] that's really only a problem in the winter time. [June:] Aye. [speaker002:] You will be getting very cold weather [June:] Aha. [speaker002:] during the winter here. You know a lot of frosty weather. [June:] a coincidence cos at the time I started taking them actually trying to spare my branch work in a bank. [speaker002:] Mhm. [June:] So I was trying to spare and it's really the most coldest branch I've ever been in. [speaker002:] Mhm. [June:] Er the heating had broken down and I don't know whether it was [cough] because of the heating or because of the tablets or whatever but they're, they're alright now. [speaker002:] Yes. Well I think er th th the time that people notice this most is definitely in the winter. [June:] Aha. [speaker002:] You know if you get maybe a week of fairly hard frost [June:] Aha. [speaker002:] you feel the tips of your fingers [June:] Yeah. Cos it'll actually take me till about half past the day to get any feeling in it, but as I say I don't know if it was the tablets. [speaker002:] It wasn't, it definitely wasn't the tablets because i if, if it had done that to you, it would have been all day. [June:] Aha. [speaker002:] There'd have been no improvement. [June:] I see. Aye. [speaker002:] Because it works all the time right [June:] Aha. [speaker002:] through the twenty four hours. [June:] Right. [speaker002:] So you wouldn't have had any, so it couldn't have been the tablets [LAUGHTER] doing that to you []. [June:] If it helps my [LAUGHTER] blood pressure I could live with the cold [speaker002:] Yes. Oh yes. [June:] fingers []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh aye. Oh it's doing really nicely.... And w we'll see you in four weeks again. [June:] That's fine. [speaker002:] And get it checked again June. [June:] Okay. [speaker002:] Okay. [June:] Thanks a lot. [speaker002:] There we go. Right? [June:] Thank you. Bye bye. [speaker002:] Okay. Right. Bye now.

[speaker002:] Well Mr, what can we do for you today? [speaker001:] Busy today is it not? [speaker002:] we just don't believe it. [speaker001:] about an hour I've been out there. [speaker002:] Oh aye. I can believe it. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Due a line today are you? [speaker001:] Yes Doctor.... [speaker002:] I've been sitting here since two o'clock my two o'clock cup of coffee. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Not very funny Doctor. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] I wasn't expecting you'd be that busy just now. [speaker002:] Oh. Holidays. Never come at holiday weekend. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker003:] [whispering] [] [speaker002:] Always the same, before the Christmas, before New Year. It doesn't matter. I mean you can go up on the rest of the week, but the day before the holiday and the day after the holiday the [speaker001:] Closed on Monday? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Well you'll get a day off there eh?... Or do you? Are you on call-out work? [speaker002:] No. I've just got a big case full of paperwork to do when I get [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] There's no rest? [speaker002:] Ah no. Keeps me out of mischief. I'll just be betting horses or chasing women or something like that. [speaker001:] Oh you'd better do the last one Doctor [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] it saves you money. If you bet on horses or drink then it cost you money. And that's not. [speaker002:] Oh I don't know. I don't know. [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] Evening.. What can we do for you tonight? [Bob:] I'm up to get my ears syringed. [speaker001:] Your ears? [Bob:] I went er for a hearing test er last week and they tell me that my left ear's a bit full up. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Sit yourself down.... [Bob:] The right one they say but the left one is [speaker001:] Too much.... [Bob:] So they said I had to come in and get it syringed. [speaker001:] Mm. We'll give it a nice gentle run through.... There we have it. I can do both of them tonight Bob. Aye. If you go, that's fine. Just let your head turn very slowly. That's. That's great.... Ah there's not a great deal in there. There's a lot of [Bob:] Pardon? [speaker001:] th there's not a great deal in this side. Some broken up bits.... Last wee shot there.... Were you away with this British Legion thing? [Bob:] I was. [speaker001:] Right. Do this one. [Bob:] I, I've got a hearing aid for my right ear [speaker001:] Mhm. [Bob:] you know? And I was just told me I should go up to I just needed a. [speaker001:] Right. Just just a wee fraction. That's it. That's the angle I want now.... I think, I think I'll need to see about it myself. See if I can get some money out of them.... I keep hearing some weird and wonderful stories. Telling me, one of the lads was telling me there was a guy he was a cook, and he'd got sixteen hundred pounds from this. [Bob:] I know got three thousand. [speaker001:] Is that right? [Bob:] That's true. [speaker001:] Ah....... A whole of money. Very lucky. [Bob:] He was too.... [speaker001:] Well if there's, if there's some wax in here it's got a good grip. [Bob:] I, I can hardly hear you [LAUGHTER] talking []. [speaker001:] Aye.... a wee look in with my, my torch for a moment. Just sit there.... [sigh] Well it's like concrete. It's solid.... Did they give you any drops to use Bob? [Bob:] No. [speaker001:] Nothing? [Bob:] They didn't give me anything. [speaker001:] I I'll need to give you some drops to use in that [Bob:] Drops. they said that if I didn't get it done within the next fortnight it would close [LAUGHTER] up []. [speaker001:] Ah. No. No. [Bob:] They said [speaker001:] No. No. It's. [LAUGHTER] A wee look in this side, see if you need to... That one's beautiful. We've got that one completely clear. But the resin off that, that other side's terrible. [Bob:] It's terrible [speaker001:] Terrible. Have yourself a good clean up. That's fine.... Thirteen [Bob:] Quate Q U A T E. [speaker001:] Thirteen.... Here we are Bill. Next week. Tell the girls I want you to come in next Friday morning. [Bob:] Next Friday morning? [speaker001:] Next Friday morning. Okay? [Bob:] Rightio. Thank you. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now. [Bob:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Well Suzanne what can I do for you tonight? [Suzanne:] I've been taking this pain under my armpit and it's kind of under back. You know it's worrying when? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh good. I'm gonna enjoy this. [Suzanne:] [LAUGHTER] Ah []. [speaker001:] Let's have a wee look in here. [Suzanne:] It's right here. [speaker001:] And there? [Suzanne:] And there. [speaker001:] Right. [Suzanne:] And right under here. [speaker001:] Underneath there. [Suzanne:] You know? [phone rings] [speaker001:] Now tell me if I do [Suzanne:] That's sore. [speaker001:] Sore in there? [Suzanne:] Aye. [speaker001:] If I do that? [Suzanne:] Oh! [LAUGHTER] Ah []. [speaker001:] That's [Suzanne:] [LAUGHTER] You enjoyed that []. [speaker001:] Yeah. I enjoyed that. [phonecall starts] [telephone conversation ends] Aye. That's it. That's all. on a nerve that goes through there. And up right and underneath. [Suzanne:] It's, was right in here [speaker001:] Mhm. Right underneath. That's [Suzanne:] you know? Where it was kind of [speaker001:] right. [Suzanne:] That's [LAUGHTER] sore []. [speaker001:] Aha. Ah. I'm bad man. I'm a bad man. Er are you on any sort of medication at all Suzanne? Nothing? [Suzanne:] No. Nothing at all. [speaker001:] Nothing? No er things from the chemists and cough mixtures or anything? [Suzanne:] No. Nothing at all. No. [speaker001:] Alright.... Cos this is quite strong stuff I'm gonna give you because that's, once that's been there for a week or two it's hard to get it shifted. And you really need to get fairly strong stuff to get it going.... Now because it's this strong, never take it on an empty stomach. [Suzanne:] Right. [speaker001:] Right? Always have something in your stomach. Even if it's just a biscuit. Bit of toast. A scone. Anything. [Suzanne:] Right. [speaker001:] And you're north? [Suzanne:] North. Aye. [speaker001:] Forgotten your number. [Suzanne:] Forty five. [speaker001:] [whispering] Forty five []. [cough] [Suzanne:] er it's virtually and the constipation. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Suzanne:] What is it? Is it just a bottle? [speaker001:] It's a bottle. Mm. Yeah. Just give a weeny, just a half a teaspoonful of that. And that will get it eased no bother at all.... Is he on solids now or is he still [Suzanne:] Aye. Yes. But he he's never eat any of those for three days. [speaker001:] He's just picky. [Suzanne:] He's been bothered with constipation for months but the, the, now when he does do it he's screaming you know? It when he's [speaker001:] Right. [Suzanne:] doing it? But as I say he's never done any of it for a couple of days. [speaker001:] Right. That... that's lubricant that'll loosen it and let it work its way through nice and gently. Cos th without actually forcing it at all. [Suzanne:] Right. [speaker001:] So it will all come through and not too, you know without too much bother. [Suzanne:] That's fine. [speaker001:] Okay? Right Suzanne. [Suzanne:] Right. Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Hello sir. How you doing? [speaker002:] Not so good. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What have you been up to then? [speaker002:] Oh I think my health's breaking up. It's my ears and er my back. I w I was in and seeing the Doctor [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and he's given me pills and that for it, but it's my ears. This is one that's been, I've had appointment and for three times I'd had to cancel it. buzzing in ears when I go to bed at night. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'm not getting to sleep. It's taking me oh quite a while to get to sleep and, and I'm not hearing too good. [speaker001:] Right. Let's have a look in and see if your brains are expanding or what's happening in here.... No wonder you're not hearing so good. No wonder you're getting a buzzing in your ears there's a big lump of concrete in there. [speaker002:] Is there? [speaker001:] Let's have another look at this. Oh my. For goodness sake. [LAUGHTER] There's a wee man with a pick and shovel in Oh aye. It's solid. [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] Absolutely solid. [speaker002:] I've been putting drops in it too [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] quite regular. [speaker001:] Aye. I'll, I'll need to give you some special stuff to loosen that. [speaker002:] Aye. Because that's [speaker001:] Because it's [speaker002:] right? [speaker001:] It's caught in the hairs [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] in the inside here and if we try and syringe it out it'll pull hairs out [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] and irritate the skin. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] I'll give you some special stuff to get rid of that. [speaker002:] Cos I've been trying and trying for ages to get that. [speaker001:] No. It's the, it's absolutely solid. The, the drops are not... not doing anything.... [speaker002:] seeing Doctor the other week. My back absolutely killing me. And I'm falling asleep every time I sit down.... [speaker001:] We'll need to do something about that. That's not right. [speaker002:] Between that and my back and my knees it's [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] . Two drops of this [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] in the morning. A wee bit of cotton wool just on the outside. Same on the other side. Same at bedtime before you got to bed. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Couple drops and [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] cotton wool. And that'll gradually loosen that up. Come back down in about a fortnight [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] and we'll just a wee gentle syringe and it'll all come away. [speaker002:] Smashing. [speaker001:] No problem at [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] all.... Now then. Thirty two [speaker002:] Grove. [speaker001:] ... Grove....... Now is your insurance line due in about a fortnight? Aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Right. Here we are then and they'll have to get that sorted for. [speaker002:] Great. Thanks. [speaker001:] Okay. Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio.

[Robert:] Hello. [speaker002:] Yes sir.... Well what hat can I do for you tonight? [Robert:] Er I feel a bit plagued my mouth ul ulcers for about three weeks now. [speaker002:] Three weeks? [Robert:] Aye. [speaker002:] That's a. [Robert:] nonstop. When one goes away I get another. [speaker002:] Another one comes. [Robert:] I've got about five just now. [speaker002:] Let me look at them. Look inside. [Robert:] I've got them in my. [speaker002:] Aye. Your gums are all inflamed as well. Aye. Put your tongue back out for a wee look. That side of your mouth's all infected as well. that's a, that's a form of thrush. [Robert:] See I've been coming for years with mouth ulcers. You know [speaker002:] mhm. [Robert:] but don't get me wrong after a while I just gave up and I was getting them in bouts and I was getting through the Bonjela and the [speaker002:] Oh no. No. They're not [Robert:] I'd done a round but and really this time it's not going away you know? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Robert:] And I don't know [speaker002:] Tt. There's a special place in Glasgow where you go to see the specialist who looks after folk [Robert:] Mm. [speaker002:] with mouth ul ulcers like yourself. Where they keep coming back like that. [Robert:] Aye. If, if if you could maybe refer me I would be happy with that. [speaker002:] Mhm. Sure. I will do that. I'll get that organized.... [Robert:] I thought I'd a had a, I thought I'd had a problem but I, I injured myself as well. And er that's why I didn't cancel appointment with you [speaker002:] Yeah. [Robert:] you know? [speaker002:] Right.... [Robert:] I've got a medical coming up, a work's medical coming up in er [speaker002:] Mhm. [Robert:] for a job and I'm just, that would be another reason I had to get it [speaker002:] Wanted to get it sorted out.... Er you're Robert that's right? [Robert:] Mm. [speaker002:] You're Robert.... Sorry I've forgotten your address Robert. Right.... Right. Now what other injury have you done yourself? [Robert:] I was carrying wall units and I'd taken fourteen wall units one after another up two flights of stairs. And I think I had about, I don't what I've done really but I just, the following day I felt it in my, my groin, the left side of my groin down my leg and up my stomach. And I went to my mate this morning who's a boxer and he said that it's now maybe, maybe a groin strain [speaker002:] Mm. [Robert:] or a hernia or something. [speaker002:] Let's have a wee look at you. [Robert:] No. But I've [speaker002:] . Sounds as if you've a strain, the way you're walking you know the [Robert:] Aye. I'm not right sure I, I've been what it was you know? Because I just sort of went to work the following day and I worked away as normal. [speaker002:] That's right. [Robert:] So maybe I'm maybe about fourteen stone I'm at.. Any... [speaker002:] Where does it start Robert? [Robert:] Well it's actually on my left, my left testicle and under underneath [speaker002:] Mm. [Robert:] d down my leg and, and up you know.... [speaker002:] And [Robert:] Aye. [speaker002:] and about here?... Aye. Yes. You have a strained just through there. That big muscle. This big muscle here? [Robert:] Mm. [speaker002:] And at the same bit the muscle up here [Robert:] Aye. [speaker002:] and it joins with

[speaker001:] Come in. [speaker002:] Good morning Doctor. [speaker001:] Good morning. Now young lady, how are you today? [speaker002:] Alright thanks, Doctor. [speaker001:] Good. Good. [speaker002:] How are you? [speaker001:] Alive. Well. Causing [speaker002:] Well, that's. [speaker001:] trouble. Causing trouble. [speaker002:] from the time he gets up [speaker001:] Ah! [speaker002:] in the morning till he goes to bed at night [speaker001:] That's right. Ah. [speaker002:] Doctor.... [speaker001:] I'll need that.... [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's sounds ominous. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I've got the post from the hospital to get and medication from them, Doctor. Ah, God, I don't know how you take your job.... [speaker001:] Well, her heart sounds good. [speaker002:] She said she was going to advise medication. [speaker001:] Mm. Her heart sounds absolutely [speaker002:] I wish to God I'd I wish like that, Doctor. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [humming]... Right. [speaker002:] Now, Doctor, [speaker001:] That's fine. [speaker002:] can you tell me? In the mornings I'm still all doolally, that's the only word I could find for it Doctor. I'm imaging all sorts of things. I hate wond wond wond wonder what's happening and I'm. I don't want to stay in the house and all this. Now, you've given me Stelazine I'm not sure when I'm taking it, Doctor. [speaker001:] Last thing at night. [speaker002:] The the three of them? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Three tablespoons. Three teaspoons. [speaker001:] Last thing at night. [speaker002:] That's it. I, I was taking one after breakfast, one after lunch and one after dinner. [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] But it's not it's in the mornings. [speaker001:] No. I think I think if you took one in the morning and then two at bedtime. That's. Yeah. That, yeah. That's just [speaker002:] Will that work out to? [speaker001:] as good. That's just as good. [speaker002:] And will this? Will this? This feeling of panic [speaker001:] Yes. That'll disappear. [speaker002:] What? Why am I coming in the room? I went to walk on Sunday evening with my daughter round the estate, and I came back and couldn't get a, a breath when I came in panicked and it was a f it was a horrible feeling. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Now, I'm getting that quite regularly, is that because of chest? Or is it a? What is? What? [speaker001:] It's, it's, it's just a nervous reaction. It's just a nervous reaction. Yeah. The erm [speaker002:] Pardon me for saying so, that's a lovely pen. I'm plain daft. [speaker001:] Yes, it is, isn't it? Are you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Sorry, you [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No it's, it is it's, it's [speaker002:] It's a beautiful balanced pen. [speaker001:] Yes. It's the only one I like. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I have about forty pens at home. And it's a, a nice, I, no [speaker002:] Do you collect them by yourself or? [speaker001:] I don't, I don't collect them. [speaker002:] People just give you them. [speaker001:] No. I, I tried to find one that [speaker002:] Well, I got Clare got one for dad. A Waterman, what one is that Doctor? [speaker001:] I've no idea. [speaker002:] See what I mean? [speaker001:] I've no idea. It's [speaker002:] I'm sorry for being nosey. I'm terribly [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] cheeky. [speaker001:] No. It's one it's o one of the drug companies. and er [speaker002:] It's a beauty. like that one. [speaker001:] Feel the weight of it. Feel the weight of it. [speaker002:] Right. That's a good pen, that's plain Doctor. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mm, I like that. Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Yeah. Oh []. No. It's er for years and [speaker002:] Now [speaker001:] years and years I've tried to get a pen I was comfortable with and [speaker002:] She got in Prince's Square and it's a, it's a good one. He's like that [speaker001:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] he wanted one that was, that was balanced. But it's not as good as that. [speaker001:] Oh I'm sure it is. Ada adamantine just slightly different. And I mean I paid a hundred odd pounds for it [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] and it's no help at all. But this one I like. [speaker002:] Doctor, will I be alright? I I mean am I? [speaker001:] Oh, you'll be alright. [speaker002:] Will this go away Doctor? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. But you take your Stelazine that's the se that's the secret. Use your Stelazine [speaker002:] Last weeken is, is dietotectalitis attached to diet? Cos really I, I was awfully ill with it last night. [speaker001:] They don't they don't really know. [speaker002:] They don't know. [speaker001:] Some people find that if they take tomatoes [speaker002:] Chocolates. Chocolate. [speaker001:] some. Could be anything. Chocolate. [speaker002:] Sweets. [speaker001:] Red wine. [speaker002:] Well wine and I [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] are not. [speaker001:] Eggs. Cheese. I've known people who have been upset by, you know, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] b all all of those. [speaker002:] And does this thing go away or does it stay for? [speaker001:] Ah, it comes and goes. Thousands of. [speaker002:] Last week I was quite ill, I people [speaker001:] Ev everyone gets some spells. Yes. [speaker002:] people. [speaker001:] Everyone gets spells when th they have cramps and upset [speaker002:] It was just [speaker001:] stomachs and [speaker002:] Oh, I'm going to go off my head. [speaker001:] No. No. That's not the dietotectalitis [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] That's not the dietotectalitis [speaker002:] nervousness on the bowels. [speaker001:] No, it's the nervousness causing the trouble with the bowels. [speaker002:] Ah, [speaker001:] Oh, the other, all that's up here. And goes down the way. We'll need to get a transplant in here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] So it's two can I take. I couldn't take any more Stelazine [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] . Well I'll come back in weeks and. [speaker001:] have a go. Yes. Aye. You could take [speaker002:] Say two [speaker001:] er if you take your morning one. [speaker002:] the morning till night time. Don't keep me in the house. Don't shut me in. [speaker001:] Yeah. If you take your morning one about nine o'clock, you could quite easily take one about three o'clock in the afternoon. [speaker002:] And then two before bedtime. [speaker001:] And then two before bedtime. Give yourself six hours. [speaker002:] Can I come back and see you tomorrow? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. Not at all. No. No. You come back any time. [speaker002:] Try to me. [speaker001:] Oh, I'll do my, I'll do my best. Yes. Yes. We're going to er go down to York [speaker002:] Oh lovely. [speaker001:] for two or three weeks. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Son down there. [speaker002:] Give me. That's medical. My son has got a phone near the door and? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I was confession in the remember rightly? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] asthmatic attacks? [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] He's coming up with her next time.... [speaker001:] Right. The best thing to get, would be er Troleyadan [speaker002:] Right Doctor. [speaker001:] that's an antihistamine. To keep [speaker002:] Troleyadan [speaker001:] keep the, all these reactions under, under control. She'll get, you'll get a box in the chemist for about [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] one fifty. [speaker002:] Troleyadan [speaker001:] Troleyadan [speaker002:] I mean it's quite serious. [speaker001:] Yes. Oh, yes. It is. Oh, aye,. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] off her head. [speaker001:] Families are strange. Families are strange. [speaker002:] Doctor. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Cheerio now. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Right. Yes, sir. [speaker002:] Hello. Hello. [speaker001:] Well now, what can I do for you today? [speaker003:] ... [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Aha.... [speaker002:] Er there's nothing I cannot, there's nothing wrong, right? Er there. It's when I go to have sex. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Right. It's. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's sore. It's actually sore behind there. I mean [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's sore. [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] It's raw. [speaker001:] Now when you say it's sore, is it sore? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] at the front? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Or is it sore down the sides? [speaker002:] It's in the sides. [speaker001:] It's in the sides. [speaker002:] How can I say it? you cough, and then you cough and it goes up? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Well see like in here you know, it's quite sore. [speaker001:] Right. Mhm. [speaker002:] It's quite sore as well. [speaker001:] Right. Let's get that sorted for you. That's quite easy.... [speaker002:] I assume it's kind of and of course it is. I can I can have it, but it's sore if you know what I mean. I mean I [speaker001:] painful. [speaker002:] I don't really. [speaker001:] . Yeah. [speaker002:] And I just. [speaker001:] ... Now er... [speaker002:] I mean I've not had or no skin or nothing it's something like maybe [speaker001:] Noth nothing broken. Aye. You see [speaker002:] inside, you know. [speaker001:] Aye. It's, it's, it's th the tissues inside get stretched, cos the side bits. The front bit hasn't much blood in it, but the two side bits when they fill up with blood and they start to stretch, it's like blowing up a balloon. [speaker002:] . Aye. [speaker001:] And it stretches all the tissue on this inside, and that's what makes it sore. And if you're actually having intercourse the tissues get squeezed, [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] and that's why you feel, that's why you feel it catching. Right. So we'll get that, now you take this about er oh, say, ten o'clock at night. It's a spe that's special capsule, take it about ten o'clock at night, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and that will relax the tissues and let it fill up that bit easier. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Right. And the other thing you'll find when you're taking this is that you'll be able to get, keep your erection for a while longer, maybe three, four, five minutes longer. So, it helps. Now, I've said on here take one of these at night. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Er that doesn't, I mean don't take it about six o'clock, seven o'clock at night [LAUGHTER] [] you could have, that could have worn off by the time the [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] emotion comes on you. So keep it till maybe half, half nine, ten o'clock. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Something like that. You take it and then enjoy it, and that should be a big help to that. It'll definitely take the soreness away for you. No bother. [speaker002:] complaint. [speaker001:] You sure? Okay then. Right. Okay. [speaker002:] Aye.. [speaker001:] Don't be frightened to come back if you need them again. Okay? Right. [speaker002:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Cheerio now. [speaker002:] Thank you.

[speaker001:] Hello. [speaker002:] Ah,. Sit yourself down Mrs. [Mary:] Aye. [speaker002:] Now then, young lady, what can we do for you [Mary:] Now, it's [speaker002:] today? [Mary:] I've had a terrible pain in my arm for maybe six weeks, and right down. Now, the last couple of weeks, this is, er I just thought, och that'll be. And I've had pain right down the bottom of my back, down my leg and right round here. [speaker002:] Oh dear goodness. The dry rot's set in. The dry rot's set in. The the pain goes. [Mary:] It's right right down. [speaker002:] It's right the tips of your fingers? [Mary:] Aye. [speaker002:] Aha. [Mary:] Up here and right down [speaker002:] Aye. [Mary:] but this is even worse I could [speaker002:] Aye. [Mary:] hardly bend, you know. [speaker002:] That's right. [Mary:] And it went right down there [speaker002:] It goes right, right down the top bit of your leg and comes right round [Mary:] and then it comes round here and [speaker002:] the top. [Mary:] That's right. [speaker002:] Aye. [Mary:] Aye. [speaker002:] Now then, just tw okay now, just keep, stand here and tell me when I come to the good bit. Now then, see that wee? [Mary:] Aye, that's [speaker002:] That's a good bit is it? What about that? [LAUGHTER] [Mary:] the last [LAUGHTER] that's. That's sore []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh, []. And that one as well. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] Now then, let's, let's... [Mary:] Aye. I felt it then. [speaker002:] Just in there. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] in, in through that bit? Not so bad? We'll so soothes that soothes [Mary:] right down. [speaker002:] soothes you right. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] I'm not gonna poke about, right? [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] I know what's happened. [Mary:] Oh well, that's good. [speaker002:] This, this, this a neuralgia you've got. [Mary:] Is that what it is? [speaker002:] That's what it is. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] That's what it is. This, this coming down here, that's the big nerve [Mary:] Right. [speaker002:] at the bottom of the back [Mary:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and down into the top of the leg. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] And a wee bit. [Mary:] And why it comes round here. And I thought, oh, I wonder what this is? [speaker002:] It's the same with this one here. It comes right down your arm, right down to the tips of your fingers. [Mary:] That's right. Aye. Cos I thought, och, [speaker002:] [whispering] []. [Mary:] I think it's about time I'm calling because [speaker002:] Yeah. Och. get. [Mary:] Cos it was really quite bad [speaker002:] Quite. [Mary:] and I don't usually [speaker002:] Yes, oh it's, it's a [Mary:] you know with [speaker002:] it's a very severe pain. It's like a toothache. [Mary:] So it is and it goes. [speaker002:] It's right inside the nerve. [Mary:] Isn't that? [speaker002:] That's wh that's why it's so sore. [Mary:] Oh. [speaker002:] And it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter how you [Mary:] Aye or anything, [speaker002:] Powers up, powers down, bed. D doesn't matter. [Mary:] And we were, and I was beginning to wonder is it something to do, you know how it tells you, maybe if you swallow there's? [speaker002:] No. [Mary:] You know how it? And I thought now [speaker002:] No. No. No. No. No. It [Mary:] I'd better go and see, you know, because I [speaker002:] No. No. No. It it's [Mary:] take my every day. [speaker002:] Yes. Aye. No it's er... that's er that is, it's actually quite a common thing. [Mary:] Is it? [speaker002:] Aye. [Mary:] Right. [speaker002:] I mean it's painful, I mean it's not that this [Mary:] Oh aye, it is painful but I thought it's not going away so I'd better go and see about it. [speaker002:] That's right. You're bet you're better knowing what it is. [Mary:] Aye, because I've, I've gone on for weeks with it, you [speaker002:] Mhm. [Mary:] know? [speaker002:] Mhm. Right. Now.... [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] This whole thing []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No. [Mary:] Well, I keep saying it's a muscle, but I thought I'd [speaker002:] No. No. No. M [Mary:] better [speaker002:] You get folk in their, in their thirties and forties with this [Mary:] With the same thing? [speaker002:] Aye. It's, it just er I'm not sure what happens, I, I think what happens is that the, the circulation into the nerve [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] gets blocked somehow. [Mary:] Oh. Aha. [speaker002:] And you're not getting the proper circulation down through [Mary:] So. [speaker002:] the nerve, so it's sending the wrong messages back up. [Mary:] [whispering] I didn't know that []. Aye. [speaker002:] And you, you're getting this [Mary:] And you're getting the pain. [speaker002:] And it feels absolutely terrible, especially in the cold mornings. [Mary:] That's right. [speaker002:] If you go outside in the cold mornings [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] and it feels all as if it's numb? [Mary:] It does. Aye. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Mary:] And it, it's just right up my shoulder here. [speaker002:] Just here. [Mary:] That's [speaker002:] And [Mary:] right. [speaker002:] and there and right down [Mary:] And right down to my fingers. [speaker002:] right down. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker002:] With one, one man said I used to put, in the cold mornings I used to put my other hand at the bottom to see if I could get heat, but he couldn't touch his fingers because they were so tender. [Mary:] Aye this was frozen to me, [speaker002:] That's right. [Mary:] this hand, you know? [speaker002:] And he just wanted to get the heat in so he kept his other hand round about it. [Mary:] I couldn't, [speaker002:] So it's I mean it's not, it's not just yourself. But it is [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] a painful thing. [Mary:] Oh, it is painful right enough. [speaker002:] Now I've given you some good tablets for this [Mary:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to help to unblock the circulation and to kill the pain. [Mary:] Aha. [speaker002:] Now they are, because there're two things in them, they're quite strong. Never take them on an empty stomach. [Mary:] No, even with my breakfast. [speaker002:] Mm. Cup of tea, with [Mary:] Yes. [speaker002:] a bit of toast. [Mary:] Yes. Aye. [speaker002:] With a biscuit. [Mary:] I'm the same [speaker002:] Right. [Mary:] with that other one too. [speaker002:] Right? [Mary:] You know how it [speaker002:] That's. [Mary:] says on it [speaker002:] Yeah. [Mary:] you know, to take? [speaker002:] Not to take [Mary:] but I never take it [speaker002:] Aye. [Mary:] before my breakfast [speaker002:] Well then, you get started on that [Mary:] or with water. [speaker002:] and that'll do you the world of good. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] Right then. Thanks [speaker002:] Okay? [Mary:] very much Doctor []. [speaker002:] Right Mary? [Mary:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Right. Cheerio now. [Mary:] . Cheerio.

[speaker001:] Come in. Oh, come in. [speaker002:] Oh, aye. [speaker001:] What can we do for you today Mrs? [speaker002:] Erm I feel Doctor [speaker001:] Mm. What've you been doing? [speaker002:] worth it,. Erm I still feel lousy. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But I have a week er but I couldn't open my week's. So could you possibly backdate it to Monday? [speaker001:] Mhm. [phone rings] [speaker002:] Because we also work [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] the holiday. [speaker001:] . [phonecall starts] [telephone conversation ends] Mm. Now, you went off, when, when was it you? [speaker002:] Oh, it was a week past this Sunday. [speaker001:] A week past Sunday. [speaker002:] But you know how you've got a week [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] you can self-certificate. [speaker001:] So that covers you up till the Monday [speaker002:] Monday. [speaker001:] does it? [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Up till the Monday. Right. [speaker002:] Up to the Monday. I phoned in to work and asked? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Don't come back till you're feeling. [speaker001:] No. No. [speaker002:] Oh, I've been out of my weekend off [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] without this long weekend due.. I actually picked up the spots, soon as that Doctor came in, to see if they, right up. Right up my ne ears, my neck and my neighbour came in, she said, I think that's shingles, cos it was sore? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it, oh, it was not shingles. But I was absolutely Doctor [speaker001:] It could well have been shingles. [speaker002:] Yes. It's no proof I hadn't a clue [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the stuff you gave. That beautiful medicine Doctor? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. Mhm []. [speaker002:] It's lousy I hate to tell you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] you think I don't know it []? [speaker002:] Two bottles of that. [speaker001:] Do you think I don't know it? [speaker002:] You with her, you with cannot pronounce it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And she I got. [speaker001:] Yeah. Is the rash still there? [speaker002:] Aye. It's but I mean I actually it was right down in there, right up, right round and it was painful. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's shingles. [speaker002:] It was bloody painful. If you excuse the French. [speaker001:] That's it. That's the shingles. [speaker002:] And he wasn't in today I mean came into work and I passed out in the.. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And when they saw the rash... then they were, but, but tt oh, I see, she says. What is it? I don't know, she says. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It could be and then again couldn't be shingles. But I mean you know how? [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] I said, God, I was, [speaker001:] That's. [speaker002:] I could. [speaker001:] you can't, you can't pass that on. [speaker002:] Can you not? I said oh, it's a pity I haven't then. [speaker001:] Oh no. No. No. It's, you're not gonna pass it on to anybody, you're quite safe. [speaker002:] I was about that,. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. [speaker002:] And they all took, they all [speaker001:] But that It takes something like the flu and that brings it out. [speaker002:] Do you know what? I've, I still feel lousy. And I [speaker001:] Oh aye. [speaker002:] finished that medicine I finished it the my chest, I still feel sick. Quite sick. [speaker001:] G go and go home and look after yourself. Don't run away yet. Don't run away yet. [speaker002:] I'll tell you something, if I it would be the first cruise liner I could find and I'd be away and I [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh m maybe when you're not. I could do this. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Say we won a lot of money first thing I do would be to, with his sisters. It's the first thing you got with it, you get a phone call, do me alright. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Don't bother sending a. [speaker001:] I want you to look after yourself. [speaker002:] Okay thanks doctor. [speaker001:] Right? Se right. Cheerio now.

[Anne:] Hello. [speaker002:] Hello. Well, what can I do for this day? [Anne:] See if you could give me some Doctor. [speaker002:] to it. [Anne:] No it's the tablets and that I'm. [speaker002:] Were you still waiting for that now? Right? [Anne:] Mm. [speaker002:] That's healed [Anne:] really [speaker002:] bad. [Anne:] and weeping. I can't walk. [speaker002:] right. Well that's needing healed up again. [Anne:] Aye. [speaker002:] right. [Anne:] But I admit matter.... [speaker002:] You still on? [Anne:] . Mhm. [speaker002:] [whispering] Okay [].... Alright.... Now, I've given you some cream to put on as well Anne. [Anne:] Right. [speaker002:] Now, put that on three times a day and you put the tablets, you take the tablets four times a day. [Anne:] What the tablets for? [speaker002:] It's an antibiotic stuff to clean it from the inside. [Anne:] Ah right. [speaker002:] Because there's inflammation round about the inside of the pin [Anne:] It's that that's weep. [speaker002:] and it's starting to come out, aye. It's starting to come out [Anne:] Mm. [speaker002:] onto the skin. And trouble you. [Anne:] do you? [speaker002:] Yes. Oh aye. [Anne:] I am. [speaker002:] Oh aye. [Anne:] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh aye. More or less. [Anne:] See Doctor, see my toes? I've seen them going kind of black, you know? [speaker002:] Yes. That's okay. [Anne:] Is that alright? [speaker002:] Don't don't worry about that. [Anne:] I [LAUGHTER] maybe [] [speaker002:] No. No. No. No. No. You've no [LAUGHTER] you're not going to come to any harm with that []. [Anne:] See these tablets you gave me? They're no use. I prefer to keep [speaker002:] Are they not? [Anne:] with the. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Anne:] that I've got. [speaker002:] Right. [Anne:] Because you gave me ten milligrams and t the five's not very strong. But I'm not very well with them and I just think they're terrible....... Save on the. [speaker002:] Right. But er if you haven't heard, how long have the pins been in now, Anne? [Anne:] two year. A year and a half. [speaker002:] If you haven't heard within the next two or three months, come in and see [Anne:] Mhm. [speaker002:] again and we'll get onto the [Anne:] Mm. [speaker002:] hospital because that's [Anne:] I know, I mean I've skin, [speaker002:] Aye. [Anne:] but er twice so I didn't get. [speaker002:] Right. [Anne:] And then I, I was at Doctor 's but he er he hasn't sent me a letter. [speaker002:] Right. [Anne:] Because he can't [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [Anne:] doing it. [speaker002:] . I it seems it seems quite a long time [Anne:] And er at times, at spells, I've got to put on the pink bandage, at times, you know, to get the swelling back down. [speaker002:] Right. Aye. Sounds as though the pins are needing to come out. [Anne:] Oh aye. definitely need to. Even the nurse said she could see it. [speaker002:] Oh, well. Hmm hmm. [Anne:] Aye. [speaker002:] Right. [Anne:] Er that's the strength or possibly three or. [speaker002:] Right well. We'll get [Anne:] Right. [speaker002:] that, we'll get that organized for you. [Anne:] Thanks [speaker002:] Okay? [Anne:] very much. [speaker002:] Right? [Anne:] Cheerio. [speaker002:] Cheerio now. [end of consultation]... [recording a letter or memo] A letter to Mr at the surgeon at District Hospital. About Anne of. Dear Mr. You may have already saying that Mrs attended recently. She has a black and she asking about. turned septic. She's quite worried crusting and discharge but she's having. In fact been treatment with antibiotics and... cream. However, she. I feel that she would

[speaker001:] Come in. Good morning. [Walter:] Morning. [speaker001:] You're a stranger. [Walter:] Aye. [speaker001:] What [LAUGHTER] can we do for you this morning []? [Walter:] It's my pills. I need pills [speaker001:] You need some poison. [Walter:] . I'm only needing the Lazarite and er aspirin, [speaker001:] Lazarite What about your spray, Walter? No? [Walter:] No I'm alright for that. I'm okay for. [speaker001:] You're alright for your spray. [Walter:] so that's... I am due my line too.... [speaker001:] fine.... Is that? [Walter:] Aye. [speaker001:] Are you still Gardens, yeah? [Walter:] Yes.... [speaker001:] There you are young Walter, and that'll keep you for a week. [Walter:] Doctor. [speaker001:] Right. Cheerio now.