Datasets:

OpenLLM-France

/

Claire-Dialogue-English-0.1

like 2

Follow

OpenLLM France 121

[Dick:] Order.... Er, just a couple of announcements colleagues, if er, those delegates who actually smoke, if you've got any Embassy cigarette coupons, could you pass them to any members of the Northern Region. They're used by the South, Tyneside Local Authority Branch to help buy a camcorder for the Sullivan member who's recently undergone surgery to remove a tumour from his brain. So don't throw them away colleagues, hand them to any delegate from the Northern Region. Colleagues, just to try and let you know what, er I've got in my mind concerning the business that's fell off the agenda yesterday and today so far. You'll recall that the er, Regional reports in the Regional, in the General Secretary's, er report fell off the agenda yesterday and there are a number of resolutions which have fell off, at this morning. What I'm planning to do is to put them back in the order, colleagues could you settle down please, I'm planning to put them back on the agenda in the order that they fell off, and er, hopefully, the first opportunity in that connection may be Wednesday afternoon, but I need to have a discussion with colleagues about that, but I'll certainly let you know at the first available opportunity. Colleagues, standing orders commission report number two, John. [John:] President and Congress. Standing Orders Committee report number two. Composite three, contributions earnings related scale, due for debate on Wednesday afternoon will now be moved by Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region and seconded by Southwestern Region. Two further composite reports have been agreed. Composite thirty two, toxic shock syndrome, comprising motion two five nine, Lancashire Region and motion two six O, Southwestern Region, both due for debate on Tuesday afternoon, Lancashire Region to move, Southwestern Region to second. Composite thirty three, age discrimination, comprising motion three five seven, G M B Scotland and motion three five eight and three five nine, both Lancashire Region. All due for debate on Thursday morning. Lancashire Region to move, G M B Scotland to second. The committee has ruled that an emergency motion from the Midland and East Coast Region, pit review and closures, is in order and will be emergency motion number two. The committee has been informed that the following motions have been withdrawn. Motion one two two, from London Region due for debate on Tuesday morning and motion four two O from Birmingham and West Midlands Region due for debate on Thursday afternoon. The committee has given permission for the bucket collection to be taken on behalf of our colleagues at at the end of the Tuesday morning session. The committee has given permission for a bucket collection to be taken on behalf of the Matthew trust fund at the end of the Wednesday morning session. Will the Regional Officers responsible for all these collections, please contact the Congress Office to make the appropriate arrangements. President, I move. [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed. Conference accepts Standing Orders Commission report number two. Thanks very much, that's being circulated colleagues. Colleagues, I now call er, motion three, rule six, appeals procedure for members, that's for the South Western Region to move. [Denise:] President, Congress and our inclusive visitors as well, because nobody's mentioned them yet. Denise from the Southwestern Region. I'm here to talk about the rule which applies to appeals procedures for members. I don't suppose many have read it in depth, cos to be honest, when do we read a rule when we don't have to, unless we absolutely need it. I understand the C E C asked us to withdraw this motion because they say it is not necessary. Well, my region didn't agree with that, we feel it is very necessary. For those not familiar what happens is, a member puts their case to their branch. If they're overruled he or she can then appeal to the Regional Committee. If overruled there they can appeal to the Central Executive Committee and if overruled there, there's the appeals tribunal. The rulebook states that a member has the right to appeal but it doesn't say that they have the right to be told why they've lost. What this meal means in real terms is a member doesn't necessarily know for sure why they have lost. They would obviously have some idea from the appeal hearing it itself but since they have to put all of their reasons for their request in writing the very least I believe they should be able to have is a reasoned reply. I'd like to demonstrate this by reading a little bit from a letter that was sent to one of our members in this position. It's from the Regional Secretary, I write with reference to your appeal to the Regional Committee of today's date and I have to inform you that your appeal was unsuccessful. That's easy enough to understand. I would therefore advise you that you have the right to appeal to C E C within one month against this decision. Again that's easy enough to understand, it's in the rulebook. The final paragraph, if this is the course of action you wish to take, in the first instance you should write to me requesting that your appeal be heard by the Central Executive Committee. I will then forward your request to the General Secretary. Again, that's fine, but the member had no idea as to exactly why he'd lost the appeal. It doesn't tell you a great deal in that letter. As trade unionists representing our members in the workplace, this is something we would be unhappy with, to go through a procedure with one of our members and know that that member has lost but not exactly know why. I don't think it is something that we would accept. When our member then appealed to the Regional Secretary and said, well, I think I do wanna appeal and go further than this because I feel I'm right, what letter did we then get in reply. Again this is another one from our region. I quote word for word, on the question of wanting details as to why the appeal was overturned, it is not a practice of the organization to give the reasons for such decisions and I would add that I've spoken to the National Executive Officer on this matter and he's confirmed that we are not required to do so. Well, I'm sorry, if I was in my workplace I wouldn't be happy representing a member and then be told by the employer, I'm not required to tell you why you've lost your appeal and I don't think this is something we should do within our own organization on our own members. The C E C I believe are gonna say this isn't necessary. What we need is for every single appeal stage, for the member to at least have the right to know why he or she has lost. Please support this motion. Thank you. [Dick:] Is there a seconder? Is there a seconder for the motion? Formally seconded, thank you. Motion six, rule amendment, to be moved by South Western... Motion six. [Denise:] Sorry, I was dozing off over there. Again this is about the procedure that we're following, but we're talking now about rules procedures for branches and I have to say that I'm up here without the support of my region on this one. I understand again the C E C is asking you to oppose it because they say it's not necessary. I would like to ask a question, that if this particular rule isn't necessary, then how does a branch go about appealing a decision made elsewhere in the union's hierarchy? I've just talked about what happens when a branch member wants to appeal but this is a branch as a whole that's made a decision at a meeting that it doesn't agree with something that's happened. Again I've got a letter to quote from, cos we're good at keeping correspondence in my branch. It's a letter from the Executive Services Officer that states, rule six, which is the one I've just been talking about on the previous motion, is quite clear in saying that only individual members can pursue appeals and not a branch. This is the basis on which my branch believes that we need a new rule which covers branches. Because we need that new rule what is happening at the moment? If a branch doesn't like something what does it get the chance to do? Well, it has to borrow rule six, that we were talking about just now. You might say to yourself, well is this a very rare occurrence, so that really this branch is making a fuss about nothing, branches don't have to go through appeals procedures, cos it never happens. That isn't the case. I've got another letter here from the General Secretary. You may appeal under rule six, my branch was told, this is the appeal procedures that refers to members not branches, but it will be well understood you are making the appeal on behalf of the branch, which obviously means we've gotta borrow one to do something else. It's not a rare occurrence because the General Secretary himself says, we've followed this procedure on many occasions in the past. If it's happening so often then should we not be having our own procedure for that to happen? If we look at rule six, and we've all been given rulebooks, if people have brought them with us, what we have to do is bend that rule so that it applies to branches, not members. What I'll do is I'll read you the first paragraph of rule six and actually bend the rule and put those words in and it really doesn't make any sense at all, so listen carefully on this one and don't be surprised if you don't understand me. Should any branch have any complaint to make they must do so to their branch secretary who must submit the matter to the branch, it's talking to yourself. If any branch is not satisfied with the decision of the branch they may appeal to the Regional Committee. Obviously you need to appeal to the Regional Committee if as a branch you're not happy, but this rule shouldn't need to be bent, we should have one that is ours to be used for branches, the General Secretary himself says that it's happened on several occasions so let's be a real trade union, not one that borrows from Peter to pay Paul, let's have a proper rule for branches. Thank you. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is that seconded? Formally seconded. Thanks very much. I call Frank to put the C E C position. [Frank:] President, Congress, Frank replying on behalf of the C E C. Er, as the last speaker said, everybody has received a copy of the rules in their wallet and I would them to take a lo take, take that copy out and have a look at it. Take it out a have a look at it.... Have a look at rule six.... You've all got it, I hope. Page ten.... We're all comrades here so the formalities should go out the window, for starters.... The first speaker who was here at this rostrum... made the point about er, the right of individuals and it's not in the rulebook. Have a look at the rule, the right of individuals is, is there. Have a look at it. I'll tell you what, there's not a lot of unions with that type of rule in their rulebook. The G M B is one of the only unions in my opinion, unless somebody can contradict me, who use that type of rule. You can take it to your branch, you can take it to your Regional Committee, you can take it as far as the C E C... and that costs a lot of money. For one individual, but we're not complaining about that, we accept that. What they're asking for is already in the rule, already in the rule... what the speaker spoke about, about er, motion number three on rule amendment, and have a look at it, what the motion states is not what she spoke about, not what she spoke about. Because if you read the motion she is just looking for the rights of an individual and rule, rule six in the rule book applies the laws of natural justice, which we're all for, the C E C agree, we're all for it.... So, we are asking... the Bristol and branch to withdraw the motion. We're doing yous a favour, our lads speaks plain to you, we're doing yous a favour. We asking you, withdraw the motion. And if you don't withdraw it, the C E C is completely and totally opposed to it because we already have what it's asking for in the rule. Have a look at it, read it for yourselves. Look, I don't want to insult your intelligence, I'm an Irishman right, we don't have a pile of that according to everybody, like ya know. But have a look at the rule and you'll find that it bloody well states exactly what they're asking for in that motion.... I'll move onto the next one. We're totally opposed to the next one. Totally. Now, I was gonna tell you a story but I'll not. You see the next one right, the reason we're totally opposed to it, as yous have been bloody debating it all morning, with the Labour Party, and I can't even bloody join it, cos I live in Northern Ireland. Now if lived in the Republic of Ireland I could join the Labour Party, but I can't join it because I live in Northern Ireland, right, but have a look at that motion, what you're talking about. [Dick:] Frank, could you wind up please. [Frank:] Er, sorry President, worthy President and all the rest of it, what I'm saying is that we're totally opposed to it because what you're going to have here is, you're gonna have a situation where branches, branches, you gonna have them fighting between branches and the C E C... [Dick:] Thanks Frank. [Frank:] and we don't need that. [Dick:] Thank you very much. [Frank:] Thank you very much. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Denise:] Thank you, back again. We're not going to withdraw either of these. Thank you. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Denise:] As has just been suggested, and I also mentioned in my speech, yes please, read the rule, it doesn't say at every stage and that is all we're asking for, that at every stage in the procedure a member knows why he or she hasn't won the appeal. I really don't think that's an awful lot to ask for. He mentioned cost, well one letter's ever so expensive isn't it, just to let someone know where they stand. I'm sorry if that's causing people a problem but that is basic human right. He talked of natural justice. Well, I consider that letting someone know why they've lost is natural justice. In terms of the rule that we need for branches, I've already said the General Secretary agrees with me, that this happens often. What it's got to do with the comrade's ability to join the Labour Party I'm not absolutely sure, perhaps someone can tell me afterwards. But branches need a facility, it's not about in-fighting, it's about something that actually happened within my branch, I'd like to add that we won the appeal, when the branch went through it raised two questions, we won one, we lost one. But we actually needed a procedure, that procedure was followed as best we could by borrowing another rule and it was achieved at the end of the day. There's no animosity within my region on the fact that one person felt one thing and one felt another and as democratic trade unionists there shouldn't be any in-fighting or animosity just because we need to discuss something on which we disagree. The whole purpose of a conference is about disagreeing with each other and then agreeing a statement as a compromise for whatever is reached at the end of the day. It's not in-fighting and I urge you to support both of these please. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, as, as conference will have heard from the mover of motion three, motion six, not prepared to withdraw and the C E C is therefore asking you to oppose both. Put motion three to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's lost. [speaker004:] Ooh. [Dick:] Motion six, yes it was, yes it was. No need for a card vote, clearly lost, put motion six to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's lost. Oh yes. Clearly lost colleagues, I can assure you. Colleagues, can I just make a point as well while we're progressing. Erm, obviously, the right of reply er, is not an automatic right. It's where the mover chooses to exercise that particular right, but in so doing the mover cannot, or should not introduce new material and make another speech. He or she should respond to the er, the points that are being made on behalf of the C E C. I mean that's the rules of debate, but I thought I'd make that particular point because it has a little bit of poetic licence er in that. Colleagues. Sections, special report, Section and Industrial Conferences. Can I advise your planning to take this particular debate. We'll ask for the General Secretary to move the C E C special report, that will be seconded by Robert, member of the Central Executive Council. We'll then take motion One one A, one one one A, er motion one one O, motion one five three, motion one five six, motion one six three. Those will be moved and seconded. We'll then come back and I will invite speakers from all the regions in respect of the special report. Call the General Secretary to move the special report, Section and Industrial Conferences. [John:] John, General Secretary. Moving the special report, Section and Industrial Conferences and also President if I may, at the same time, moving motion one one one A on behalf of the C E C, rather than returning to the rostrum a second time. First of all, the report. Colleagues, last year as you know er, the C E C put a report before you called Wider Democracy. You'll also remember it was quite a lively debate, history lessons, buckets and spades presented to the platform and a good deal of passion. Er, but that of course was all about the most controversial aspect of the report, which was the frequency of Congress. The rest of the report, which was the role of section conferences and industrial conferences, which have been the subject of fairly detailed consultations throughout regions over the previous two years and appeared to be widely accepted was hardly debated at all. But of course, when the whole report went down, when wider democracy was defeated, we also lost the guidelines for section and industrial Conferences. And that's left us in some er, difficulties frankly, because one of the things that er, the C E C was recommending, that work of a strategic nature, which at the moment is undertaken by industrial conferences should be moved over to be dealt with by section conferences and that meant that a number of industrial conferences need not meet any longer, so we would avoid the duplication, the overlap and the waste. The solution of course is obvious, this year the C E C, no doubt suitably chastened by the vote last year, is resubmitting the section and industrial conference proposals on their own, without any other issues attached. The logic is obvious, we have seven sections now, seven sectional conferences, these conferences must have proper terms of reference, proper guidelines for debate and clear rules as to who can attend, who can speak and who can vote, and that's the most important part of our report. To fill this obvious gap in our constitutional arrangements. The report goes on to recommend changes in industrial conferences, and I've already mentioned that, to ensure that there is no wasteful overlap between the two, and Robert in seconding the motion will go into some of the details of the er, way the new conferences will operate erm, following me. I now if I may President, turn to motion one one one A which amul er, amends rule A five. This is a more difficult issue. The rulebook and the Special Report spell out the nature and function of the sections. They are industrial sections concerned with what is happening in a particular industry, or a group of industries. That's of course why section conferences cannot debate matters reserved to Congress and why national committees cannot cons consider issues within the remit of the C E C. They are concerned with the industry and the section of industry alone, but of course the issue that we then have to deal with is, we must make sure that those section committees, those national section committees, carry credibility with the members working in that section. They must been seen, their decisions must be seen to reflect the interest and wishes of members currently employed in the section, and as we have always believed industrial and negotiating policy is best made by members at work in the sector who feel the day to day pressures, know what is going on, motion one one one A seeks to ensure that this will happen. So this, with some restrictions, confines the membership of the committee to people who are at work. But then of course the difficulty arises because these are difficult times, there is a recession, people are losing their jobs day by day and we didn't think it was appropriate to start applying some guillotine on people's election rights and their membership of the committee. So, of course, we've stretched things a bit. The amendment will of course not remove anyone during their period of office if they lose their job. Of course not, they've been elected for a period, they serve to the end of that period, whether they're made redundant or not, so they go on for the four year term. And also, of course, we've so worded the er, amendment to rule to ensure that anybody who does any work in the sector in the eighteen months before the election period, even of a temporary nature, will be eligible to stand as a member of the section committee. Now, of course, when you put restrictions on that seem to deny any group of members any rights, you must be very careful. So lest any misunderstandings arrive that this is some thin end of some wedge, I should also add that the restriction we're proposing only applies to national committees, doesn't apply to any other office anywhere in the union and to reinforce that point the C E C will be recommending support for a general motion underlining the rights of people who are unemployed or retired to hold office throughout the G M B. Colleagues er, the defeat of Wider Democracy last year left us with a bit of a hole in our constitution. I hope you will accept this report, you'll pass the amendment and complete the constitutional framework of our sections. I move. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Could I have motion one one one A formally seconded? Thank you Mary. Robert to second the special report. [Robert:] President, Congress. I have been introduced but there is only one small point and. I am from the Scottish Region and a member of the Technical Crafts Section. President Congress. On behalf of the Central Executive Council I second the special report on sectional and industrial conferences. We need a coherent guideline for the relationship between Congress, sectional national conferences and what up until now we have called national and regional conferences. This is provided in the report. The aim of the guidelines is to set out a clear role for each conference within a coherent, sensible framework. The sectional conferences will decide strategic issues affecting industrial groups within the section. They will be responsible for the overall strategy of the section. The newly named national negotiating conferences will decide bargaining issues affecting members covered by the particular national negotiating councils. But if there is no national negotiating councils then there is no delegates, national delegates' conference. Regional delegates' conference will be held where the regional nat the regional negotiating councils or where there is a need for a regional sounding board for the effective operation of the national negotiating council. They will feed the national negotiating council. So, we have a coherent democratic system for developing industrial and policies within the union. The inevitability of that Congress should pull back, excuse me, the inevitability means that Congress should pull back from indus industrial strategies and negotiating deals, but should be left to the members concerned. Indeed Congress will concentrate on debating and deciding issues of a wide spread and common concern to all our members, such as finance, the rulebook including the structure and organization of the union, our political, economical, economic and social policies. Our relations with the T U C and the Labour Party. Nevertheless, you'll have a great deal to talk about within Congress and you'll have a lot more time to do so. The C E C believe that the report will provide a vibrant, democratic and sensible system for policy making of our union. It will involve more members with decision making taken by those who are responsible for reporting back to the members and for carrying out the effects of such responsibilities. It will enhance the accountability within the G M B and hereby improve the quality of the decisions we make. I therefore second the motion and hope you will support. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion one one O, Midland Region to move. On one one, one one A, okay. Sit there colleague, would ya?... And whilst Alan's coming to the rostrum colleagues, can the, the movers from London of motion one five three, one five six er, London again, one six three, Birmingham, if they would come down to the front and also it would be very helpful colleagues, if regions, if regions have indicated a speaker on the special report, if those colleagues could come down as well it would be helpful. Alan. [Alan:] Thanks Mr Chairman. Colleagues, Alan, Lancashire Region, opposing motion one one A on behalf of Lancashire Region. Colleagues, I must oppose this rule amendment. If passed anyone not in employment for eighteen months prior to nomination will not be eligible to attend any sectional conference. Colleagues, I have members in my branches who are unemployed but still pay full contributions... not because they have to cos they want to, [speaker004:] [clapping] [Alan:] they show their commitment to this union, where is this commitment, union's commitment to them? [speaker004:] [clapping] [Alan:] I'll tell you what it is colleagues, it's a case of no pay, no play. Colleagues, it's a good job this rule was not out when Will Thorn was about, eh? He wouldn't have had enough members to attend a meeting, never mind form a trade union. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Alan:] For this union to say only employed members can represent them is disgraceful. Utterly disgraceful. The C E C should be ashamed of theirselves. In our branches, we believe the best person for the job should represent the members, not the best employed person. Oppose motion one one A. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Barbara, are you on one one one A? [Barbara:] Yes. [Dick:] I had feeling you might be. [Barbara:] Er, Barbara, Birmingham Region, speaking against one one one, one one A, the amendment to rule A five with the support of the Birmingham Region. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Barbara:] Congress, rule A five seeks to debar the unemployed from taking an active role in this organization. There are calls to retain members, they wanna keep you, they want your money but if you're unemployed you take, can't take an active part in the G M B.... They say this to the very people who have been the bedrock of this organization, the very people that built the organization. They who have kept the membership going under the Tory regime and they that have suffered the effects of recession and job, job losses and brought, brought about by the Tories. And now President, colleagues, this organization seeks to ostracize those very people. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Barbara:] Rule A five was brought to us by the amalgamation of the boilermakers, who themselves have tried to get rid of this bloody rule. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Barbara:] G M B mem G M D, B members are sick of having rules imposed on them brought about by amalgamation. It's high time we kept some of the old G M W rules. Colleagues, I would say, and if you'll excuse the expression, I don't think this C E C knows its arse from its elbow. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Barbara, the lights [Barbara:] For [Dick:] Barbara, the lights are very strong in here. [Barbara:] Pardon. For in supporting rule A five at the C E C by a very slim majority they also supported resolution one five three by an overwhelming majority, which says exactly the opposite to rule A five. Colleagues, the Birmingham Region says, reject this amendment and support resolution one five three. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Er, Billy, are you on one one A as well? [Billy:] Opposing. [Dick:] You're opposing. Is, are there any other colleagues, Alan please don't come down any more, please. What you waving at me for John. Right, you're there. Are you, any of you colleagues on one one A? No, right. Last two. Okay Bill. [Billy:] Billy, Northern Region, opposing the C E C rule, what we've just heard about. Congress, as a life-long trade unionist and I might add, it's me golden wedding next year. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Billy:] Because my good lady's always said, you married that bloody union the day you started work. As a life-long trade unionist, colleagues, I have held one firm principle. That principle colleagues, is equality. If this rule change is agreed, we accept that one member has more rights than another. It places member against member, it causes division, it destroys our solidarity and it weakens our movement. Congress, it's against this background, against a lifetime of commitment to equality that I firmly oppose the change. It stands against, it stands against every principle of trade unionism. To hold that one G M B member should have more rights than another, to say that one member can stand for an election, but not another. Congress, our principles have stood for a hundred and three years. By working together we have built a strong and powerful organization. By holding equality as a central principle of our union we have maximized solidarity between our members. [shouting] That regardless of background, education, race, sex, occupation or age [] every single trade unionist is an individual member with the same rights and responsibilities as his or her colleagues. Now, let's take the young activist, who starts off in the trade union movement. He starts off in his factory, in his workplace or what have ya. He organizes the place, he recruits members, he's run off his feet and the employer turns round and says, we cannot have this here, this lad's too good, [shouting] get him out, sack him. Aye, they do []. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Billy:] They do sack 'em, because it happened when there was full employment, never mind about [shouting] three million on the dole []. And let's face it brothers, sisters, some of our members have more chance of seeing Lord Lucan riding as they have of finding a job. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Billy:] Colleagues, colleagues. I am not going to insult your intelligence and beg you to vote or oppose this vote. I'm not going to insult your intelligence. But what I'll do if I may, applaud your commonsense when it comes to the vote. Thank you. [speaker004:] [clapping] Mr President, Congress, brothers and sisters and I hope you're comrades and all after this. One lady speaker was right, the sister, the boilermakers brought this rule in. I wasn't at the conference, what a pity. It wouldn't have been on the books [LAUGHTER] if I ever seen blatant sectarianism at its worst [shouting] it's in that bloody motion []. Here were people through no fault of their own, government policy, mismanagement and lo and behold, our union kick us in the bloody face because you're unemployed. [shouting] Well, I'll tell you this, you oppose this motion with all your might and don't let 'em get away with it []. [clapping] [Dick:] President, Congress. Ivy, Midland and East Coast Region, moving amendment to rule A three. The rule as it now stands is a contradiction. It provides for an annual Apex Conference, it stipulates that the conference shall be advisory to the C E C and all decisions shall be subject to C E C congress policy. It then lays down that no matter shall be discussed that is within the remit of Congress. But all matters are in the remit of Congress. This effectively disallows any subject being discussed at an Apex conference. My branch submitted a motion to the Apex conference two years ago that sought to draw attention to unemployment amongst the white collar workers. It was ruled out of order by the Standing Orders Committee as it fell foul of rule A three, the subject was within the remit of Congress. Last year Manchester Central Apex branch submitted a motion highlighting the dangers of tampon related shock syndrome, arising out of the death of an Apex member. The Standing Orders Committee ruled it out of order under rule A three, within the remit of Congress. I'm pleased to see it on this year's Congress Agenda. Why are the C E C fearful of matters being discussed at the Apex conference? They are the final arbiters, as to where the motions passed at the Apex Conference are acceptable under the advisory element of the rule, my branch are only too aware of this. Four years ago, the Apex conference carried a motion from my branch seeking the continuation of the old Apex rule, providing for Gold badgers at retirement, for members with twenty five years continuous membership. What happened, the C E C refused to accept the decision. The Apex conference is finding itself severely restricted on matters it can discuss by this rule. It needs to be laid down what can and what cannot be discussed by an Apex Conference, my branch wish to remove the present restriction and ask for your support. I move. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder for one one O? [John:] President, Congress, visitors. Jed, Midlands and East Coast Region, seconding motion one one O. What this motion quite clearly seeks to do is to widen debate at our Apex section conference. It's my firm belief that if we continue to stifle debate on general issues at our section conferences then we also restrict the flow of knowledge within the union. At present, there's no denying that sectional conferences need some guidelines, I mean you only need one experience like last year's Apex conference to realize that. Admittedly the confusion wasn't entirely the fault of the SOC, the mood of the delegates didn't particularly help but the situation was something like this. We were allowed to debate a motion on homelessness but a motion as a previous speaker has said, on toxic shock syndrome, was ruled out of order, as it fell within the remit of Congress. Confused? So was I. Was I therefore to assume that homelessness was an issue peculiar only to Apex members within the G M B or was I to reach the alternative, and I might say equally ridiculous conclusion, that despite its majority of women membership, toxic sock, shock syndrome was not of particular interest to Apex members? Of course not, well let's look a little further into the issue. Section conferences are composed of delegates, who in the main will never get to Congress. If we limit the forum for debate on important issues, such as T S S or for instance, racist attacks, to Congress, then many section delegates may never be exposed to those debates. So, as I've already said, we need some guidelines but are the existing ones the right ones? I would suggest not. I personally would prefer us to be looking at some way of allowing greater scope for debate at section conferences, and where necessary to have decisions on general issues deferred to Congress for ratification or withdrawal. Remember Wider Democracy? Well, if we're really into wider democracy we ought to be promoting wider debate, please support. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] One five three, London Region to move. [Denise:] John, London Regional Committee. Moving motion one five three, unemployed members qualification for office. Now there shouldn't be any terrible complexity about these series of motions that we're considering now. The motion that we are proposing is fundamentally straightforward. It simply recognizes the importance of retaining the experience of G M B activists in a situation like now where thousands upon thousands are being made redundant and in many cases victimized for trade union activity. So, what are we saying? That as they've been made redundant, as they've been victimized for trade union activity possibly, we then as a union decide that they cannot stand for office? That is what the section report says in certain aspects of it. Rule amendment treble one A, which the General Secretary also took the opportunity to move, does not fully address that situation. It makes it far more complex than it should be. It introduces, as has been pointed out by numerous speakers, the famous eighteen month rule. So it effectively disenfranchises unemployed, long term unemployed people from being active in that section. It's clear to me and I think it's clear to the vast majority in Congress that it's a matter for branches to decide who represents them in the various forums of the union. It's not a matter for ruling people out because they've become unemployed, through no fault of their own, absolutely not. So I've gotta say, that in terms of credibility it's, and the Regional Sec er, the General Secretary made the point about credibility within those sections, and within that, those elections, it's for the branches to, to actually decide who represents them credibly or not and for this, for any attempt to change rule in this particular way. We therefore have got to oppose rule amendment one one one A as well as oppose the Sectional and Industrial Conference Report for the same reason. Both of them in their own separate ways seek to disenfranchise unemployed members. It's very simple Congress, if you support motion one five three this probably will never happen again and we won't have the situation where there's an attempt to disenfranchise unemployed members. I move. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder for one five three? One five three seconded. Formally seconded. One five six, London Region to move. [Frank:] President, Congress. Dave, London Region. Public Services Section, moving motion one five six, section conferences. Congress, as we are all aware, since nineteen eighty eight, this union has moved to sectionalization of its membership according to their trade. For example, local authority workers, like myself, to the public services section... to the energies and utilities section. A very good concept and is probably working. The difficulty seems to arise within the membership in knowing exactly what areas of responsibility each section has, what are the rules of debate for sectional conferences, are decisions taken at sectional conferences binding on the union rulebook relating to that section and within all of this sectionalization, what role does the Apex conference now play, as those members, like myself, are presumably within one of the other sections too. Therefore Congress, we must call on the C E C to answer the confusion in plain English, so that I, and I'm sure many other of our members, can understand... in the form of a document circulated to the branches so that we can go forward into the future at least understanding where we fit into our own union. And then with that understanding I am sure many more members will want to become delegates to sectional conferences, armed with a clear and concise guidelines. Congress, I move. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Seconder for one five six. Thank you. Motion one six three, Birmingham Region to move. [John:] Rose, Birmingham Region. President, Congress. Motion one six three seeks to ensure that no pre-conference delegates' meetings are held prior to sections, regional and national conferences. I believe the C E C are accepting this motion and therefore the principle that's contained therein. In view of this and after many years of being in the movement and being active in the movement, I know when to quit when I'm winning, so I move motion one six three. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you, Rose. Is one six three seconded?... Formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed. Colleagues, I now invite er, delegates from the regions who may wish to make a contribution on the special report. Birmingham Region first of all, do you wish to put a speaker in?... It would be helpful again colleagues if er, potential speakers er, will come down to the front.... Sorry, are you speaking on this colleague? Yes, well you'd need to come, oh you're going round that way. Okay. [Robert:] Er, Jim, Birmingham, West er, Midlands er, supporting er, the sectionalization of the union because erm, we were told a few months ago it was passed for nineteen ninety one. Now I heard John speaking about sections a minute ago and he said we need guidelines. The reasons that we need guidelines now is we hadn't time to study them at the time and up to the present moment, as far as I'm aware there's one section that's just been formed a couple of months ago. So, we didn't have time to study them to see exactly where they are, to see what relationship between congress, the C E C and the sections. Now, up to now we've met, it's probably a step forward but it will need careful monitoring because there is utter confusion as far as I'm concerned with, I don't know whether Apex is a sister union with us or a section and I don't think Apex know the difference themselves. The other problem we've got, and I will call it a problem, is the relationship to beat with, with the sections and elections to regional councils, in the union, where there's not enough people or just barely enough people to stand for a section and they're automatically elected. Now that can create problems between one person who's elected and a person who is not elected. Now that would need looking at, otherwise Birmingham and West Midlands er, accept the sectionalization. [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Lancashire Region [speaker004:] [clapping] [Alan:] John, Lancashire Region. President, Congress. My experience of the new sections are working, doesn't fill me with any enthusiasm. I accept that they are a new concept and they may be an, an improvement in time. Nevertheless, I am concerned in three areas. The first and the most important is accountability of this Congress. All the national officers are held to account, they have to give a report of their activities and delegates can challenge them. Motions can be put forward and ones carried become the mandate for those officers. The section conferences are a merely advisory body. Motions debated, even if they are carried, do not become a mandate. The officers just take their advice, this is not accountability. If a motion about a particular industry cannot be placed on the agenda, that of our congress then we lose the accountability. It is essential that this right is not lost. The second is the expense. As the number of sections grow, another one is planned with the then the cost of having these section conferences will, I believe, become astronomical. We've had the debate over whether or not we want our annual conference and that argument was won. Despite the cost we voted for our annual conference and I have a feeling the argument will be back again some time in the future, based on the fact of having sectional conferences and an annual congress, the cost is too high. The General Secretary and the C E C have to be quite clear, the cost will have to met by other means than altering our annual congress. The third is the condition imposed on who can attend as a full voting delegate. The present rule denies any delegate who's been out of the industry for eighteen months is discarded. What right has anybody, other than the members in that section deciding for themselves who represents them? We may have members who been unemployed longer than eighteen months. What right has the C E C to say they can't? If the members of a section want to vote for a full-time branch secretary, there was a member of that section, who's been a full time branch secretary for longer than eighteen months, what right has anyone got to say they can't? It's disgraceful. The next thing is that when the vote comes to the General Secretary for the union, anyone who's been out of the particular industry for longer than eighteen months won't be able to vote. We wouldn't accept that and why should we accept this for this section? If the General Secretary and the C E C are prepared to take the regions' concerns into account and adjust or alter the way the new sections are organized then we will support. If he can't give that assurance in his summing up, then we will be opposing. Thank you. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you John, Southwestern Region. [Barbara:] Chair, Conference. Sheila, Southwestern Region. As John has already told you I'm sure you will all remember the debate last year, the wider democracy and I s I'm sure you remember you overturned it. Well colleagues, I hope that the guidelines for section document this year is supported. Colleagues, this document is surely the way forward for a progressive union which represents so many, many members spread over all aspects of industry. And in the scope and authority section of the document it gives the right for section conferences to have the authority to discuss and decide strategic issues affecting their industries. Surely this must be the way forward for the G M B and a much fairer and democratic way for our grass root members, who after all are the backbone of this industry, it's their we discuss at our section conferences, it's their wages, it's their terms. They have a right, they have an import. The Southwestern Region supports the document. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Yorkshire Region. [Billy:] Ron, Yorkshire, North Derbyshire Region, speaking in support of the special report on sections and industrial conferences. President, Congress. Yorkshire and Yor North Derbyshire Region welcomes this report which will standardize the structures of all the sections of the union. It will also ensure that decisions which affect our members are made by the activists employed by within the appropriate sections and industries. This will lead to greater accountability which I am sure will be welcomed by Congress. Sections are the best way forward for the union. Following the est the establishment of the public services section, I was lucky enough to be a delegate at the conference held in April. At that conference the number of delegates allowed for more lay activists to be involved. We achieved a better profile and there was more positive debate about recruitment and retention. All delegates were in attendance at all times throughout the conference. Structures that increase participation, encourage debate and widens representation and gives responsibility to activists to develop policies that affect the future of their industries will strengthen the, the sections of the union. Yorkshire, North Derbyshire Region commend the report to Congress. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Northern Region. [speaker004:] President, Congress. Peter, Northern Region, supporting the special report. Congress, last year the Northern Region voted against the special report titled Wider Democracy, which is very similar to this report. Similar, colleagues, but not the same. The Wider Democracy, as we all remember had one important difference. It called for an end to our tradition of holding an annual conference. Well, Congress, on two separate occasions the Northern Region informed the C E C that without the attack on an annual conference we will be pleased to support secal sectionalization. Well, colleagues, eventually two years on, finally the C E C has listened. They have removed the attack on our conference and at last we can now get on together to build a better union. Congress, on that basis, the Northern Region supports the report. Conference, I move. [clapping] [Dick:] Southern Region. Orelia, Southern Region, speaking in support of the special reports. President, Congress. There is a need for consistent approach in regard to sectional conferences. To avoid to sectional conferences, to avoid the current confusion as a result of the changes within the union. The proposer provides the opportunity for conferences to deal with the industrial and political issues in a more rational way. Regional and national conferences will deal with industrial based issues, leaving the sectional conferences to decide. This structure will also show that our members' contributions are spent in an acceptive and efficient manner. This proposers will give the sections credibility and affirm the G M B as an amalgamation, friendly union. Southern Region supports the report and urges Congress to do likewise. Support. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thank you very much Orelia. Scotland. G M B Scotland... No Scotland, G M B Scotland. [John:] I need it this time. Conference, chair. Mary, G M B Scotland. Congress, Scotland supports the report for industrial conferences. It's the way forward to attract and meet the needs of other unions and possible amalgamations and merges. I am speaking from my own personal situation. We came to the G M B from the workers. Many in our branch recognize the need for the strength, the baddening, the experience, the equal rights, health and safety, training opportunities within a large union, but they were also very worried about losing our own identity. Within a union as large, as diverse, as it is, the sectional conference has, in our case, helped allay many of these fears and concerns and our own clothing and textile industry is still as active as ever. I support. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Midland Region... I say you aye. You're not from the Midland Region. [LAUGHTER] [Denise:] Transfer you if you want. Er Steve, Midlands and East Coast. Er, colleagues, Congress ninety two defeated the special report on Wider Democracy as is mentioned in this report and as John has previously mentioned. Er, and it was plainly obvious why. But as with most documents that come as packages er, we either have to accept the good with the bad or say no, and enough's enough. Now, last year in defeating Wider Democracy we did leave ourselves er, in limbo somewhat, with regard to the sectional, industrial conferences. Er, I'm personally glad to see the appearance of this document so that we can clarify the situation with regards to these conferences. The recently formed energy and utility section held its conferences, regional and national, earlier this year, and from the report-backs I received er, they were a great success. The conferences were held actually, shall we say according to these guidelines that you have before you erm, and it was felt that the remit of these conferences has already and will in the future erm, increase democracy, accountability and the efficiency in decision making processes in our union. The Midland and East Coast are supporting the document based on our region's successful experience of our sectional conferences and the need for these guidelines to be adopted along with the rule amendment, so as to enable future sectional conferences and delegate conferences to know exactly where they stand. Now, we did have a, a very heated discussion and concern was expressed regarding the rules governing eligibility, section and conferences for delegates which excludes those who have not worked in the industry or craft or trade for eighteen months prior to their nomination. Now, we could be denying a lot of very experienced noble colleagues the opportunity to contribute to debates, quite probably through no fault of their own, as we all realize. But it was felt though, that it was necessary to support the document in order to clear up a rather unsatisfactory situation er, where we're holding sectional and delegate conferences that don't have remits and guidelines er, which can clarify their position. I've been asked to ask er, a question also on appendix three, procedures for regional delegate conferences where it states that copies of the reports of regional delegate conferences shall be forwarded, forwarded to the regional secretary. Erm, the appropriate national industrial officers branch secretaries and the main workplaces in the industry. We would ask, because it's not actually clear erm, what that means, that the report from regional delegate conferences could be forwarded to all the G M B representatives at the main workplaces so as to keep all our members fully informed of the proceedings er, say again, the er, Midland and East Coast are supporting the document. [Dick:] Thanks very much colleagues. [speaker004:] [clapping] Well, I lasted. Right,, London Region. Speaking on a proposed section conferences guidelines and of course, rule A five. President, Congress. I'll speak on behalf of the London Region against the sectional conferences report and also, of course, rule A five. [clapping] [shouting] And our main concern is that it is victimization, the unemployed, in some cases, it will also victimize the sick and the disabled. Hang on, where am I? That no member of the union should be prevented from holding office or be active in any part of this union simply because they are unemployed, sick or disabled. But most of all, it's an attack. But most of it's an attack by our own union against what has been in the past the most active members of this union. It's important that when a member is made redundant that he keep in contact with his industry, so that he's in a position to be able to regain employment and also regain employment for his, for his or her fellow unemployed. And what a better place to achieve this, industrial conferences in our own union. Come on John, think again. And what is long term unemployment in this day and age? I can assure you, it's nearer to five years than eighteen months. The eighteen months out of Trade Rule made some sense when this great nation of ours had something resembling full-time employment. And that was twenty five to thirty five, forty years ago. But today, with highest unemployment levels for many years, it's not the highest ever in some of our own regions, it's a lot of nonsense. John, all this will do is make, is make re is make it, hang on, I lost it. Hang on John, all this will do is make at least a quarter of our own members, in this union, to be inactive in their own industries. I say it's a vicious attack, that's been set upon them, by this vicious Tory government, over the last fourteen years is not enough. John, two years ago we invited you to and introduced you to the Chamber of Commons, among other places, as a modern trade union leader. But this victimization against some members of this union is not an act... it's not an act of a modern trade union leader. It is an act of lunacy. Congress, both I and the London Region urge you to oppose this new rule A five and all the boilermakers as well. We know that in this day and age it's unworkable. Congress, please, careful on how you vote. Mould this lot of nonsense down, because me as a boilermaker had to live forty four years and there ain't enough people are still working to be able to run the sections []. Thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Liverpool Region. [John:] Ian, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. Our region's got a free vote on this document so in that sense I'm not necessarily expressing the views of the region. People'll have to come to their own conclusions. In relation to the Special Document, whilst I support the document er, as far as it goes with one exception, and that's in relation to the unemployed members, but whilst I support it as far as it goes, I don't believe it goes far enough. I don't believed it has addressed a number of issues. It does not address the question of the establishments of regional committees of sections. It does not address the question of establishing regional conferences within the section in order that delegates can be elected to the national conferences. And also, it doesn't address the problems of the anomalies which exist between the various sections. I am a member of the largest section of this union, that's the public services section, yet we are only entitled to a hundred and fifty delegates when we have two hundred and twenty thousand members nationally. Those anomalies need to be addressed with the er, establishment of another section, when amalgamate with our trade union. No doubt they will have their own terms. One of the ideas of the C E C setting out guidelines is in order to bring some consistency to proceedings. Well, we've not got consistency when you've got different rules for Apex, different rules for CAT, different rules for, different rules for the public services. I think the C E C need to carefully think out er, the way they wanna go forward. Last year the document was defeated. I think the reason for the defeat was mainly due to the, the biannual conference issue. The C E C have had twelve months, the sections have been up and running, they should have learnt from the experiences over the last twelve months because all that they've done is presented us with the same document with the exclusion of the one issue of the two year conference. The final point I wanna make, we in Liverpool, more than anywhere else, understand the consequences of unemployment. But we also understand the consequences of political unemployment. We've seen activists sacked, we've seen activists been unable to, to get a job. They go on a list and they cannot get work simply because they've been activists. Let not our union discriminate against the activists like the bosses do. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, I call upon the General Secretary to respond to the debate. [Denise:] Well colleagues, John er, General Secretary speaking on behalf of the C E C. First of all, the section guidelines. There was, I'm glad to er, note widespread support for the section guidelines, as one colleague says, we were left in something of a limbo and we've gotta fill that gap. Taking some of the questions that were raised I think we can deal with them quite easily. It's certainly the case that we need more publicity for the sectional structure and you have a broadsheet which is being circulated, which starts the process of publicizing the structure of the union, how the regional and industrial structure works together. Accountability was raised by John. Well, the national secretary's national officers are of course accountable to the C E C, they are accountable to congress, the introduction of section conferences means that they have another, an additional level of accountability, which doesn't replace the accountability to the C E C or to Congress, but supplements it and subjects them of course to a closer scrutiny and a closer contact with the major activists in a whole sector of employment. That seems to me to be a major step forward and a number of delegates accepted that. The cost, there is no doubt the section conferences will cost money. That was a point made very strongly last year. The intention, however, as is clear from the document, is to cut back on the number of industrial conferences as that work is being swallowed up by the section conferences and as Robert in seconding the report made perfectly clear, industrial conferences, now called delegate conferences will only be held if there is a negotiating body for which the delegate conference has to frame policy, or in a number of other very limited situations. The role of the whole time branch secretary was raised and we, what we've done here, is to continue the practice that operated in respect of national industrial conferences, and it says on page four, as is currently the case for national industrial conferences full-time officials and branch secretaries not working in the industry may attend by arrangement between the region and the section secretary with the right to speak but not to vote. We've just rolled over exactly the same rule, exactly the same provision. Er, Ian, Ian made the point about some inconsistency and there is some inconsistency between the section conferences. This is an attempt to bring a greater level of uniformity than we have achieved so far, but we are bound by agreements made at the time of amalgamation and we cannot undermine or contradict those particular decisions, and that's why in a few cases, particularly in relation to the size of conference, there is some slight imbalance. That's not something we can address immediately, while the ink on the amalgamation document is still wet. Regional delegate conferences. Well, we're going to try to provide the first steps towards uniformity. We may have to follow up with other arrangements in the future. But we need to fill the gap, and by the way colleagues, I think it is appropriate, just to end this particular section of my reply with the comment that at the public services section conference from our count forty percent of the delegates there had never been to a G M B conference before. The argument about the establishment of sections was about industrial identity and it was also about widening the democracy within the organization, bringing in more activists, giving them a say in their own conditions of service and in the strategic issues affecting their industry. Forty percent additional delegates brought into the decision making structure seems to me to be a fine tribute to the establishment of the sectional structure. Motion one one O colleagues, we have asked you to oppose. This is the motion that says that the Apex conference would be able to debate issues of a general nature which are appropriate for this Congress, the decision making body of the union and for no other conference in the union. There's no point in trying to fudge this, you can only have one governing body and this is it. If you try and fudge it and set up three or four, say they can all discuss the same thing, you are building in the ability for major conflicts. If people want to discuss matters of general concern, they must get themselves elected to this Congress. If they want to establish questions of industrial concern, they should get themselves elected to the section conferences. I know there's some unhappiness in the Apex conference about the way things went in the past, I give this small amount of advice. The Apex conference must come to terms with the nature of that amalgamation and that said that the Apex conference would concern itself with matters of interest to white collar workers. Matters of general interest have always been reserved here. We can't compromise on that principle, we have to ask you to oppose motion one one O. And now we come to the difficult issue of the amendment to A five, one one one A. Many of the points that were made, in fact I think all of them, were made in the discussion within the C E C. Is it unfair to ex er, isn't it unfair to exclude unemployed members from any part of the union structure, isn't this a kick in the teeth, isn't this a way of undermining the position of unemployed workers? All of those points were made. On the other, just wait a moment and we'll come to the other side of the argument because the argument is carefully and evenly balanced. The other side of the argument is this. From time to time national committees will have to take hard decisions about the strategy for that particular sector, that's what they're there for. And from time to time because they will take those hard decisions, those decisions may not be popular. And they will then be asked to demonstrate their credibility. And if, and this is not a theoretical point, it's happened in another union, if the majority or a large number of people in that sector, on that committee are not working or have not recently worked in the sector, then tensions will begin to arise, concerning those members who are working at the moment, and say hey, hold on a minute, perhaps people working in the industry should make these hard decisions. The question doesn't apply in respect of the conferences. We've said people can go to the conferences with the right to speak, not the right to vote, because that principle applies, but the right to speak. They can go there as they did with the industrial conferences, but we have to make this careful balance between parts of our membership. We're not making the thin end of the wedge, we're going to support the motion from London Region. The general statement of commitment for unemployed workers, the unemployed people, the general statement of commitment to ensure that they are not excluded from parts of the union. But this is the industrial decision making body of the union. That's what the section committee is there for and the C E C after balancing these arguments decided that with all of the limitations, with all of the stretching of points and so on, on that basis, we should come down and recommend to you that only people who work in the section should be eligible for election. That's my reply to the debate on that point and colleagues, thank you. I move one one one A, reply to the debate on the other issues. [Dick:] Right colleagues, I propose to take the vote now. On the special report, section and industrial conferences you've been recommended to accept by the C E C. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one one one A, rule amendment, rule A five, the C E C motion, being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's lost. [cheering from audience] It's going to be terribly demoralizing this, for the C E C colleagues. Don't make a habit of it, please. Motion one one O, rule amendment, rule A three. Will the Midland Region withdraw?... No, okay. C E C are recommending you to oppose that particular motion, motion one one O. All those in favour of the motion? Against? That's lost. Motion one five three, you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one five six. Again you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one six three, you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, I now call Mick to deliver his report on public services section. That will be followed by er, a very lengthy debate on the public services. Mick colleagues. Mick, just before you start. Colleagues, I know that people are starting to move out, and I'm sure that it's got nothing to do with Mick's appearance at the rostrum, but colleagues seriously, seriously for the last couple of days we've had a great deal of disciplines so please try and be as quiet as possible. Mick. [Robert:] I wouldn't bank on it. Thank you President. Congress, Mick, National Office. It's now fifteen months since the Tories were elected for a fourth term and what've we seen since that election? More of the same. More attacks on public services, more attacks on workers rights, more privatization. Attacks affecting the old, the sick, the young, the homeless. Those members of our society most needing and most deserving of our quality public services. In local government alone, between now and April nineteen ninety four, it's been estimated that anything between thirty three thousand and a hundred thousand jobs will be lost. Our own, jointly commissioned with the T & G ke community, showed a loss of seventy thousand jobs and a deficit of seventy one million pounds. Since nineteen eighty eight, again local government alone has shed over five percent of its workforce. The new round of compulsory, the reorganization of local government will threaten many more jobs. Many of those jobs will be white collar workers. The figures for the health service are no different. Our union, Congress, cannot stand back and witness thousands of public servants, many of them our members, become yet another statistic in the unemployment figures. As a union we need to build a broad coalition with the providers and the users of public services and if necessary, with the employers. We have got to protect not only our members' rights, but our public services, and from this conference today we've got to make it quite clear, to central government, that we demand investment in our public services. We demand investment in the infrastructure. We must demand investment in training, in education, in order that we can provide those quality services. At a time when across Europe governments have been devolving power downwards, in Britain we now have a system of central control, unparalleled outside of the former Soviet Union. But we should not be surprised by the Tories' attack on public services. We all know their attitude, public is bad, private is good. As long ago as nineteen eighty six, the treasury stated in a supposed confidential document and I quote, most of the savings from contracting out are because contractors can offer poorer conditions of employment, contractors can eliminate costly bonus schemes, overtime pay and provide little, if any, sick pay and also avoid National Insurance contributions by means of part-time work. All of those that we have fought to build up through national and local bargaining over many years. And we've got an example here today, colleagues, of the Tory dogma on public services. Within the balcony we've got representatives from Tylers at Crawley, representatives of twenty three of our colleagues, who have been on strike for twenty weeks in defence of jobs, in defence of pay and equally important, in defence of safety standards [speaker004:] [clapping] [Robert:] and I applaud our colleagues from Crawley. We've gotta expand upon the magnificent work that the Southern Region and our colleagues have done, and if necessary we've gotta take our campaign against Tylers to national level. Our ongoing successes with and the acquired rights directive will eventually put a halt to the attacks on public workers' rights. However colleagues, let's be quite clear, that is not the end of competitive tendering. It is not the panacea to all our ills and also we've gotta make it quite clear to the Labour Party that they cannot use and the acquired rights directive to include compulsion in competitive tendering. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Robert:] Competition, yes, compulsion, no. But the attacks upon services is not the full story. In addition to the attacks on jobs, public sector workers, many of them who are poorly paid, part-time, many of them women workers now face an effective cut as the government attempts to restrict pay increases this year to less than one point five percent. Even by the Tories own, this pay policy will remove some one point five billion pounds from the pay packets of over eight point six million public sector workers. I would suggest to this conference and more importantly to this government, that that is no way to lift this country out of the recession and it's no way for us to run an economy. And now we hear rumours that Lamont's successor is now actually talking about extending that pay restraint into nineteen ninety four. The message from our Congress must be quite clear. You're not on, we will not be made the scapegoats, with public sector workers will not pay for the Tories' mismanagement of the economy. I've spoken about jobs, I've spoken about services, I've spoken about pay. But the other evil part of the government's attack on public services is that it is an attack upon democracy. In the past the electorate had had their say by holding accountable, either centrally elected or locally elected officials. We had deb democratically elected representatives on our health authorities, on our schools and on our planning authorities. That's not the case now colleagues. Government appointees, over forty thousand... a lot of them Tory grandees or supporters of the Tory Party, now populate unelected quangos which control many of our public services. Our commitment to quality public services, they're efficiently run, publicly accountable and operated without exploiting workers, must be and will be our main goal. Quality public services provided by public sector workers, funded by public money, responsible and responsive to the public. Our union with its long and its proud history in the public sector does not seek confrontation. We seek cooperation. But the message must be quite clear. We will fight to protect our members, our services and our democracy. I commend my report. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, we are gonna deal with that section of Mick's report that deals with the public services and that commences on page thirty four, thirty five, yes. [speaker004:] Er,, East London region. Where is it, oh yeah. It sounded good Mick, I mean it's your first year and I wasn't gonna come up here, but I thought I might as well start as I mean to go on. When I read your page I felt like I was listening to a Party Political Broadcast of the Labour Party. You know, telling us everything about the Tories, what they've done wrong and to go on from that, not telling us anything about how you're gonna put it right. Well, you know, Donald came up here year after year and took a real tongue lashing and you didn't really put anything down there that could be criticized this year but you said we're gonna fight. Are we gonna fight, how we gonna fight, because the local authority people are fed up with doing all the giving. Local negotiators like me take a lot of stick and I'm just gonna pass that stick straight on to you, because my members tell me all the time, I pay one thirty five a week, well so do I. So I want a service and I want the service from you. And I'm looking for you to satisfy me because I haven't found a man to do it yet. [clapping] [Dick:] Er, thirty five [LAUGHTER] [Barbara:] Follow that. Er Liz, Midlands and East Coast Region. Mick,you your report rightly identifies community care as a services... our members' job security and working conditions. I will be grateful for any information you may have on private home care cooperative. With the systems from the local authority and the cooperative development agency, a pilot scheme has been set up in my area. Is this peculiar to Leicestershire or is it the shape of things to come, because my members are concerned. They really believe, and I also believe that this is a back door entry to privatization. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thirty six, thirty seven, thirty eight. [Frank:] Yes. Dave, London Region. Erm, under compulsory competitive tendering, Mick. I'd like to know why it's taken so long for this union to work again er, with the regulations in public services. At a recent training course that I've been on apparently public services could have been protected since nineteen eighty one. Why is it only recently that we have started taking cases up? It's all very well earning compensation for our members but what we want in public services is our jobs, not compensation. [speaker004:] [clapping] to Fulham One branch, London Region. Mick, what I'd like to know is and this links in with our other discussions this morning and also something that Mary er, mentioned yesterday. Jack wrote an article in Tribune saying that C C T was a good thing in some respects. Now I know that many people out there are absolutely appalled by this. Now, I'd like to know Mick, does Jack talk to you, does he talk to your counterpart in the T & G? If s if he doesn't why not and would, would you please tell us what possessed him to come out with such a, a remarkable statement and I think this goes to the what we're talking about this morning. People like Jack are supposed to represent us in Parliament and he comes out with nonsense like that. [clapping] [Dick:] Thirty nine Yes, Duncan. [Billy:] Duncan, Lancashire Region. I wanted to base some comments about the UNISON's er, section of the report because er, I think it's

[Mick:] Mick, National Officer. President, as delegates will know this is my first report to Congress from the Public Services Section and in the time available could I warn delegates and onwards to eight hundred thousand members, their families and all their friends and the eight million members of the T U C and their families and their friends, a sizeable group of British people who, President, now consider theirselves as past, present and future patients of the N H S, and rightly so. Well, do I have news for you and them. In April and May of this year, the Junior Minister of Health, in April Tom announced from the shared platform with David, the Tory MP for Havant, but better known as a leading member of the Tory think tank, that regulations had been lifted to allow private capital to have free access to the N H S. To undertake buildings of hospitals, the complete management of hospitals and to retail a full range of health service products. President, David followed on and said, and I quote, the successful takeover of the National Health Service depends on agreements being excluded from the present unions and he has not been contradicted. President, this was supplemented by the Secretary of State, for Health in May, last month, by golden Virginia Bottomley, that further offered an invitation to the private sector to form a partnership with the government to take over our public sector N H S, to provide the flair and the entrepreneurial skills and imagination of the private sector of British industry. What an example, what a record. U K private industry nil, the rest of the world ninety nine and still playing with plenty of time on the clock. Congress, to it further we have no lon we are no longer patients, we have all been renamed customers and clients, the new management practitioners use the language of the private sector, corporate customer targeting, they refer to theirselves as commissioners of health service care working with the internal market. Fund holders talk about buying the best products available at the lowest price, regardless of the inconvenience to their customers [Dick:] Mick, Mick, just one second. Colleagues, let's keep it quiet please. [Mick:] regardless of the inconvenience to their customers who might have to travel further afield, away from their homes and communities for treatment. Fundholders have to manage their financial budget they're told, like any other small or medium sized businesses. They want to develop purchasing skills, cash flow skills, cost control skills and labour cost controls. President, for those who have, I'm sure, who'll these fundholders are, we used to call them family doctors. Congress, President, the government have got no guts to announce publicly that their intentions to privatize the N H S on a date that will give the leading time with the razzmatazz and P R that they've done before to sell shares, to sell shares in the British public in a public nationally held N H S, there will be no seats, there will be no Inspector Morses and others as there've been with Telecom, gas, water and electricity. The present private health service companies like B U P A, that already, are all ready to move into the front door and take over, so this year my first report on the N H S could be replaced in nineteen ninety four on the report on the private health care industry unless we take action. Based on the following, delegates, I've been lucky like many of you, to live in a country where I have had available to me a National Health Service that has been the envy of the world. Like you, on occasions my family and I, along with my parents, have had the benefits of being able to use the National Health Service free of any ongoing financial burden to the family. There is an opportunity now on the fifth of July, when this may well be our last chance to demonstrate, all of us, along with health service workers, cos they can't do it on they o on their own. And publisly, publicly and forcibly on that day, which is a date we should be celebrating the forty fifth anniversary of our National Health Service, instead we will have to demonstrate to save our National Health Service. President, delegates, brothers and sisters, I will be there on the fifth of July. I hope you will be with the health service workers, not just because I have the honour and privilege of being a national officer with this greatest union in the country. Not because I directly res have some responsibility for representing our membership within the Health Service, but because as I said earlier this is my Health Service, this is your Health Service, it's our families' Health Service that we have enjoyed the benefits since nineteen forty eight. I will be out there because I am, and this may have surprised a lot of, a very youthful appearance of me, I'm gonna be a granddad in August and October this year. And no Tory government is gonna take away our Health Service from my grandchildren, who will be born in a National Health Service hospital and hopefully will enjoy the benefits and the care during the rest of the nineties and well into the next century. I move my report to Congress. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much, Mick. Colleagues, turning to Mick's report, page seventy one. [Eric:] Yes... Eric, London Region. Erm, I suppose we ought to say welcome to the Health Service, Mick. Erm, I doubt if you'll get too hard a time from us. Possibly not covered in the report is the commitment that this union is giving to the Health Service. We've created a new sector, I, I've seen over the last three or four years, changes in the way that we've tried to represent our membership in the Health Service from the old industrial conferences to combined industrial conferences into the er, current erm, section that we've now got. The problem is that we seem to have dropped the Health Service off more and more and more over that period of time, and I think, to be fair, the programme sums it all up, two motions... on the Health Service. It used to be a major debate at this congress. It's not just the better... the members that we've got working in the Health Service, it's about everybody in the room and everybody in the country who wants to use it and we've gotta get it a bi a bit higher up on the agenda at this union and I hope Mick, that you can give us the confidence and give us the commitment, that that's what we're gonna get from this union. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Seventy two. Yes. [speaker003:] President, Congress. I should like to ask Mick regarding the long service ambulance personnel. A lot of them now are being took off A and E work, put on out-patients and most on it's now the art of trust. I was took on to be able to keep the written terms and conditions. Thank you very much. [Dick:] Thank you, seventy three, seventy four and seventy five. Mick. [Mick:] Thank you President. Er, Eric erm, asked about er, profile and resources and er, hoping I would er, provide the conference, confidence er, of our membership in the health ser of getting the profile up. Eric, I reported to the C E C on Saturday night when presenting the, the Health Service Conference report, that I would be making a detailed report to the next er, meeting of the Public Services Section Committee... on resources er, on what I see in the first five month of my er, ten year of office er, what, what we need to do, to play our part in the public service, to extend ourselves within the er, the Health Service. That report, I trust will be adopted by the, er the public services national committee and go back to the C E C for the endorsement and er, watch this space. I just, Birmingham Region, I think the delegate who came up second about long service ambulance staff and the going down. If I could see him at the back I'll er, I'll just get the question a bit more clearer and I'm sure I can help. Thanks very much. [Dick:] Alright, thanks very much indeed, Mick. Colleagues, National Health Service, composite motion fourteen and motion three O five. Er, composite fourteen to be moved by Liverpool Region. [Doug:] President, Congress. Doug, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. Health Service worker. The latest demonstration reforms proves the point what trade unions have been saying since the inception of Trust Hospitals and I think the word trust is the wrong word to use. It should be mistrust hospitals because the people who work in the service were all guaranteed certain things which have not come to pass whatsoever. The whole trust of the reforms is to break up the N H S piece by piece. If you worked in the industry you would see what was happening and you would be aghast. You just do not believe the moves that they try to do. The main thing is they don't inform you of what's happening now until it's happened and then they say, oh well, we didn't need to consultate with you cos it doesn't affect your members. But in knock on affects it does. Through privatization, privatization of occupation and health. Privatization of finance, privatization of all the ancillary workers. That more or less exhausted now. The only people who seem to be excused from the privatization is the senior management executives. Morale in the service is at an all time low. Through the pressures put on our members by the private contractors, if they get recognition, and not guarantee, no sick pay, reduced holidays, no check-off, the, I could go on and on and on. Then the fortunate staff who are still employed and they're regarded as fortunate that you've still got a job, because that's what the management use repeatedly to professional people like nurses, sisters and other professional organizations who work within the Health Service, you're very lucky to have a job. There's very many unemployed. Why should you complain? Our nurse members have been waiting now, some of them, since nineteen eighty eight for grading appeals. There are twenty eight thousand up and down the country waiting to find out, have they got the correct grade. That is a legacy of the late Mr Kenneth Clarke, Health Service Minister, now the new Chancellor. God help us with the economy, if he comes up with a crackpot idea like he did over these grading appeals. So because of the embarrassment, Mrs Bottomley has instructed all her Regional Health Authorities to clear the backlog of these grading appeals. But Mr Walgrave, another Minister of Health decided in nineteen ninety one that he would do with a, a famous thing called Section Thirty Two. But he was in a peer mechanism which had been a longstanding thing with trade unionism management for many years, with no replacement. So what they decided to do, they would accept the clinical grading appeals which says that a panel can be up to six members, of three members of management and three members of trade unions. The Mersey Region, where I work, have decided that they wouldn't accept that. They would accept the panel of one trade unionist and one member of management. And they said that was the only way that they could clear the backlog within the time limit that Mrs Bottomley has set. This union and other unions have protested most vigorously to the Mersey Region and they decided then to go ahead with the appeals by approaching other trade unions, not necessarily involved in clinical skills, like the plumbers and the joiners of the A U E W and the EPTU. No disrespect to their craft, that's their job, but would you like it if you were sister, working in intensive care or an A and E department to have your appeal judged by a plumber or a joiner and that's what's happening in the Mersey Region at the moment. We have other stupid things like a nurse training college, let's close it. So we close it down, to make it way for a new hundred bedded day hospital, which'll be not private, guaranteed, no way will it be private. But it can't be managed in this country cos nobody's got the expertise of the management of these sort of hotels. So we're bringing the Swedish Airlines to come over and manage it. So we close a nursing college and we're gonna make it into a hundred bedded day hospital and it's gonna be managed by a Swedish Airline company. That's the sort of thing that's going on at the moment. I could go on and on and on. I have to show you this, cos that is the disgrace and you all saw it, we read it on Tuesday. There's no way that child should have died, but you know what these famous words in real terms, in real terms we are putting more money into the Health Service. The people who are putting money in the Health Service, I don't care whatever city you go to, you will see an appeal for a new kidney machine, a new special baby care unit, you're the people, the public are putting the money in, because they're certainly not. The only money they put in to the chief executives and their two yearly pay re review performances that they get, for cutting other people's wages or contracting Health Services and for somebody to have to travel that distance for a, to die, is absolutely appalling and it's a disgrace. I could go on and on and on and I've listened all week to the debates and I agree with what John said on Sunday. I think a lot of people do. If we don't get together collectively to get rid this government, you and your families and Mick and his grandchildren, there won't be a health service there. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Comp fourteen formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed. Motion three O five to be moved by London Region. Did you formally move? Oh he's coming, right. Sorry. [John:] John from the London Region. President, Comrades. Erm, Congress, the Tomlinson review of the Health Service in London contains many questionable aspects, midst conclusions stem from the misguided belief that market forces will resolve all the problems. That's sheer and utter rubbish. This is a flawed document and indeed it comes to very questionable conclusions. The under-funding of the N H S has been the main cause of our having reached this crisis point. Closures and amalgamations are simply destroying internationally renowned centres of excellence and creating a positive area for redundancies, voluntary and compulsory, early retirements and relocation of about twenty thousand personnel. This massive attack on the labour force in the inner London, the most heavily deprived districts in the country, ignores the social dimension, the climate of deep recession and the added importance of an economic entity in local judicious management. A massive reduction in beds erm will have, no doubt, a follow up in the rest of the United Kingdom, with its inevitable result on health care and jobs. The onward march of the Trust program is destined to swallow up the N H S as we know it, health care delivery biased in favour of the money orientated, terms and conditions for the workers on a take it or leave it basis, short term contracts as the norm and reduction in sickness entitlement. Certainly longer hours and less pay, all that was hard fought for tossed back in our faces. The intent of Tomlinson will add greatly to the expected one hundred thousand job losses in the capital in nineteen ninety four, a rise of thirteen percent. Are they careless or just mad. People in poverty is no way to help the inner boroughs. The N S, the N H S employs from the highly skilled and professional to the semi- skilled, manual workers, ancillary, clerical, maintenance, nursing and midwifery personnel, mostly locally based. What's to become of the pool of labour when the heart and soul is torn from London by the ruler of the political... obviously, no consideration for the human consequences of its policies. Major, I also mean my man, his decisions and bed closures courts disaster. Patient care will suffer, demand for care will increase and er, primary care will this point again and again. While they haggle over the prices in the Trusts, you must continue to suffer and the socially deprived remained bottom of the waiting lists. Now look at the tragedy of Barts. Closure will destroy both the historical and the esteemed. The Royal Marsden, place of care and genius, to go, another victim. What about Queen Mary's, Roehampton. Hope for the limbless. I thanked him greatly. Harefields, giving life with great heartlessness and many more. Congress, fight, fight indeed with all your might. They have got it wrong. Help to put it right. All must have heart. Tomlinson, John Major's government seem to be twin spirits, who know exactly the price of everything but the value of nothing. Can no one rid us of these medalling and wilful misfits. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks John. Is that formally seconded please. [speaker007:] No. [Dick:] No? [Eric:] Eric, London Region, Section three O five. Sorry, to take a little bit of time but I did point out we've got two motions on the Health Service and erm, I think it's a little bit more important than just er, formally seconding. The arguments in Tomlinson, too many beds in London. There's too many beds in London, there's a small outfit called the E B S, the Emergency Bed Service. Because they have so much trouble finding beds in London hospitals, they've got this little company set up to do the job for the doctors, so there is no way in the world that I can believe there's a shortage of beds. The hospitals of excellence, as some people have put them, the major teaching hospitals, all in London, nationally they import that expertise once people have done their training. You get rid of those hospitals in London, you're gonna lose the opportunity, and the colleague from Liverpool summed it up, they shut a nursing college, right. And that'll go on, and that'll continue to go on. The major training is done in London. Nowhere else will be able to afford to do it, so let's not pretend that it's not gonna affect those people outside. The Trust certainly won't train. That's an area where they're not gonna get involved unless there's an awful lot of money and yes, there is money, for them for a training budget, but certainly not enough to cover what would be lost if, if Tomlinson, and let's face it, if they win Tomlinson it will just continue. The specialist units that would go, cancer units, heart units, children's units. Colleague again showed you one, there was another one on television today. A child that's er, been unable to have an operation because of the closure of the Westminster Children's Hospital. These things are going on all the time. Other hospitals will not pick up, I don't care what the Virginia Bottomleys says, or any of the others from the Kenneth Clarkes, he's the one who did the major destruction job on the N H S. He then did it in employment, you know, it's obviously now gonna continue, I don't know quite erm, how much more damage he can do on the economy, but that's the guy who started it all. We've got a major problem in the Health Service. It's back door privatization. The are too few beds in the Health Service, whether we like it or whether we don't and what they're trying to do is force people to use the private sector. That colleagues, whether we like it or not is back door privatization and we've gotta fight to oppose it. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks Eric. C E C are accepting both these with a statement colleagues and I ask Edna to put that view for the C E C. [Edna:] Edna, speaking on behalf of the C E C on composite fourteen and motion three O five. Congress, President. On Sunday in his General Secretary's address, John Edmunds reminded everyone in the labour movement that we need to, need to express our arguments simply if we want to get the message across. Earlier this year, I heard the whole of the debate about health care reduced by the media to just four words. It was about the debate, about health care in America and the words were provided by an American reporter. So the fir four words need to be translated from American into English. But those fe four words tell us a lot about what lies ahead for the N H S in Britain, unless we're very careful. The words were coverage and cost containment. By coverage they meant the fact that thirty five million Americans are not covered by health insurance. They are exposed to whatever illness or injury lady luck throws at them. And the free market system doesn't protect them because they tend to be too poor or too old for health insurance cover. Either they can't afford private health insurance or the American insurance companies regard them as a bad risk to be acceptable. Today in Britain, Michael is looking for ways to make people take out private insurance against all sorts of possibilities. Poverty in old age is one. Health care must be another on his list. You can bet your bottom dollar. By cost containment, the American media meant that the U S A spends almost twice of national income on health as the U K does, but for no better results overall. Americans are no healthier on average than we British. The Americans burn up lots of their health expenditure paying lawyers' bills. Today in Britain's N H S we are spending more and more on accountants and fi financial consultants and less and less on health care workers. Since nineteen eighty nine, the number of N H S managers has risen by eight thousand, while over eight thousand nurses and midwives' jobs have been lost. All over, the Tories are trying to import Transatlantic techniques. N H S Trusts has been going out of their way to recruit managers with experience in private profit sector. They want bosses who will be in human, American human resources techniques, like things, related pay and personal contacts. One very recent in those debation at Ealing Hospital in West London, has been invited to, invited the staff to hand back this year's pay rise. In return for probably not making staff redundant. Probably. I think it's their idea of a loyalty bonus. You pay the boss instead of him paying you. We also now have G P fundholders. With these you can forget all you ever heard about health care based on medical need. Their speciality is jumping over obstacles,to jump, queue jumping to be precise. Other doctor's patients are having their operations postponed in order to allow the patients of G P fundholders to be treated first. Money talks, is exactly what we warned about. Cash coming before care. Congress, I didn't look into any crystal ball. I simply watched an American T V news item, but it gave me a frightening vision of what the future could hold in store for us, unless we fight the Tory policies with all our might we can muster. That fight will be helped if you vote for composite fourteen and motion three O five. Thank you. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much, Edna. As Edna indicated colleagues, the C E C are supporting comp fourteen and three O five. We'll take the vote. All those in favour of composite fourteen? Against? That's carried. Motion three O five. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, just before we go on to Election Systems er, there is a meeting at lunchtime, and two of the principal speakers at that meeting is Bernie Grant MP and Billy. They're both sat at the, the back of the hall, would you extend a very warn welcome colleagues. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much. Election Systems, colleagues, motion one four eight, one four nine, motion twenty eight. Now mo motion one O three has been withdrawn by the, the Northern Region. At the end of the debate I'll call Ernie to put the C E C point of view in respect of the three motions left because they're seeking reference. Call motion one four eight to be moved by Midland. [Les:] Les, Midlands and East Coast Region. Moving motion one four eight. President, Congress. Last year at Blackpool I moved a motion calling for review of the C E C election procedure. We agreed to reference back. We agreed to reference back this year. I asked the C E C and congress to re-affirm the commitment given to us. The supreme body on this great union and the vote re vote in return reflects the fault in the system. Postal votes are a disaster. The answer that our voting is no worse than any other union's is not satisfactory. We should be in the forefront and not compare our faults with others. I'll look forward to a working party to be set up to address this situation. This should not be put on a back burner. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much. Is that formally seconded? Motion one four nine, Midland. [speaker003:] John, Midlands and East Coast Region. President, Colleagues, I'll be very brief. This motion has been put up this year because there are changing circumstances which really do require us to give elections to the C E C deeper consideration. For instance, with the merging of branches, we could find ourselves in a very enviable position of more than one members wishing to be considered as a candidate for the C E C. Therefore, it makes sense that the branch, in the first instance, should be addressed by these people so that we can make up our minds at that level as to who we feel will be the best person to start recommending to go forward. Now, I do understand that the C E C has already set up a working party to look into this whole issue of elections to the C E C, and no doubt, that will also include a review of the byelaws. My region welcomes this and hopes this motion will be given due consideration. I move, thank you. [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much, John. Is one four nine er, seconded? Thanks very much. Motion twenty eight. Midland again. Peggy, Midlands and East Coast Region. President, before I start could you er, please ask erm, at the doors if they could keep quiet a bit because delegates can't hear some of the debates. You me you mean colleagues who have gone outside and they're having a chat and a smoke, what have you? Yes. That's right. Yes, if ya can hear me outside, we're watching ya. Just keep quite while Peggy's speaking. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] I have had some stick this week. President er, delegates. This union has done a great deal for equality. Isn't it time that members standing for C E C elections were given the same equality with Regional Secretaries, who as we all know, all year round, in all regions, when a leaflet or a booklet goes out to members, in most of them there is a photograph of the Regional Secretary. Obous obviously the purpose of this is to create an identity with the members. By inserting this an amendment to rule eleven, you'll be giving the colleagues standing in future C, C E C elections the same facilities. I understand the C E C are seeking reference. My region has agreed to er, reference, after it's been seconded. Thank you. Thanks very much, Peggy. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is that formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed, and I understand that the region, Midland Region, are prepared to remit one four eight, one four nine and motion twenty eight. Is that correct? Conference accept that? Thanks very much. So Ernie will be very pleased to know that he's not required to er, star this morning. [LAUGHTER] Section Secretary's report, Keith, Process and Construction Section. [Mick:] Keith, National Secretary. President and Congress. It's my privilege and pleasure to present to Congress the first report of the Process and Construction Section. Congress will recall that over the years I've made references to the close working relationship, which was developing between G M B and our German colleagues. Given this situation it's a delight to report that the launch of the section in February was accompanied by the signing of an historic partnership agreement with our German colleagues. This agreement is the most significant, bilateral agreement between two European unions in different nation states and covers some one point seven million members and I was most heartened colleagues, with the er, welcoming comments that were made by brother David from Durham City Central er, clerical branch from the Northern Region in his address. Erm, the partnership agreement er, arose from a clear conviction by both unions that positive trade union action is better than rhetoric. That it is inadequate for trade unions to merely pay lip service to a European prospective, or to be deterred by the refusal of the U K government to accept its European responsibilities and deny rights to U K workers that are enjoyed by every one of our European colleagues. We assert that strong trade union relationships, on a day to day basis, must be developed in a bilateral form and this agreement provides for substantial trade union cooperation in the European Community and beyond, and it's already materially advancing the interests of our members and assisting the development of free and independent trade unionism in Eastern and Central Europe and the former Soviet Republics. And the importance of this work, colleagues, will become clearer later in this report, but at this point er, President, I would wish to place on record, although he's now has to leave er, to catch his plane, the attribute to my friend and colleague, who was here during the earlier part of Congress, as an honoured guest. He's one of the co-architects of the agreement and there is no doubt that his vision, energy, enthusiasm and dedication cannot be over emphasized and is deeply appreciated by this union. Congress, the section held its inaugural, National Conference in April and unanimously adopted as priorities for the section, four main areas of work. Recruitment, new agenda agreements, health, safety and environment and Europe. All areas in which the section has got a proven record of achievement. Because of time, I intend to concentrate on the European dimension. Now one of the first fruits of the partnership agreement with the Germans, is a successful initiative on joint training and education of officers and shop stewards funded from the E C fourth programme. It's a two year project, which in the first year includes three large seminars and the production of a number of booklets together with a training video. The first of these seminars was held in March, when sixteen members of the G M B, principally lay activists, and of those principally members of the section National Committee and five officers participated with an equivalent number of German colleagues erm, at the training centre in. Now it was the unanimous view of the entire G M B contingent that the seminar was stimulating, exciting and laid the basis and the foundation for continuing cooperation on a day to day er, basis with our German colleagues. The second seminar will be held in July at National College and the third will be held at the Training Centre of the German Mineworkers' Union in October. A union with which we'll be amalgamated within the next eighteen months. Now, the entire project, which includes language training for, for all the union's activists, together with the conclusions reached will form a handbook on training, for distribution throughout the European community. Now, we readily recognize, Congress, that there's immense prestige attached to this initiative for the G M B and over two hundred activists will have jointly participated during the two years of its existence. Colleagues, the important thing about the agreement so far, is that we have already destroyed the myth, perpetuated by the employers, that joint work across national boundaries in Euro- multinationals are inappropriate because of differences in trade union cultures, organization and systems of collective bargaining. This materially assists all G M B members and not simply those in the Process and Construction Section. The two unions have also devoted considerable resources to promote the formation, growth and development of free and independent process trade unions in the former Soviet Block. Both unions are proud to be associated with this noble and historic enterprise, and share the view that this work is essential to assist the people in those countries to build democratic, political, social and economic systems. We're already seeing the successes. Four weeks ago in Budapest the executive committee of the World International I C E F accepted into membership from Russia alone organizations representing seven million workers. [Dick:] Wind up please, Keith. [Mick:] Congress, we'll appreciate the significance of this situation and I commend my report. [Dick:] Thanks very much. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Turning to the report, colleagues, one seven three, one seven four. [speaker003:] Yes. Yep... President, Congress. [Dick:] Who's the biggest? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Keith. [Dick:] Oh alright, you go on then. Certainly the cheek is anyway. [speaker003:] No, just quicker. Northern Region. [LAUGHTER] Keith, I've had a look at page one seven four, Chemical and Allied Industries and I can't find anything in there about the recent problems that we've had at Allbright and Wilsons. So I pa I turned to page seven, one seven three, the new section for the Process and Co er, Construction er, Section and I can't find anything on there. We've had problems at Allbright and Wilsons for some time on a change of working pattern, but this is just a modern way that companies have got today of de-manning people. Now, we got permission to go ahead with a, a ballot for industrial action, which took place and although it was a majority for industrial action, it wasn't the required two thirds majority. I do have to thank on behalf of my stewards' committee er, Terry who gave us a lot of help and also the er, Regional Section who also helped us. But when it went to National, everything just gone. The question is Keith, from my committee, where the hell were you at in our hour of need? [Dick:] Thanks very much. Yes, colleague. [speaker010:] Thanks President. Ken, Midland and East Coast Region. President, I'd like to er, offer thanks on behalf of my membership in the Process and Construction Section, on the false agreement, it was a very successful week and just to echo Keith's words, those links that we made are working and we are in correspondence with the, our colleagues in and we're picking that up in terms of recruitment. Thank you. [Dick:] Thank you Ken. One seven five, [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] one seven six, one seven eight, one seven nine. Keith. [Mick:] Yes, President, Congress. In answer, first of all I must thank Ken for er, his erm, his comments. Erm, the delegate from Northern Region referring to Allbright and Wilson. I think what we have to understand, colleagues, is that this report actually is put to bed, print-wise, well in advance of this Congress. It doesn't in any way claim to be an absolutely up to the minute report of absolutely everything that we've done in the previously twelve months since last Congress, and quite frankly, it just could not be that. So, we do apologize, but hope you'll understand er, the delegate particularly, that we just cannot ensure that the report has got absolutely everything in it. The involvement of brother Terry Hayes. I'm glad that you commented er, so favourably about brother Hayes' er, attendance at your headquarters conference because, of course, brother Hayes is acting on my behalf in that capacity. When you ask what happens at national level, well what happens at national level in these industries is that we have dozens and dozens of requests for headquarters conferences each year. I cannot possibly and conceivably, and no good other individual officer, actually handle all those and some them have to be delegated. In your case you couldn't have had a better officer, in my view, to handle that situation. I'm delighted that you were pleased with the response. Thank you. [Dick:] Thanks very much, Keith. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, we now have a very pleasant er, duty. I'm going to ask Tom to make a presentation. [Doug:] Thanks very much er, President er, to mark the occasion of the launching of the British er, Boxers' Association we'd like to make a little er, presentation to Barry, who's the President of that Association and erm who you know, of course, is the Chairman of the Institute of Professional Sport and the Professional Boxers' Association has got the honour of erm, immediately being part of that er, body and has the assistance, of course, of er, the many people involved there. From the G M B point of view, of course, we have quite a sporting section and we're proud to have this link er, with both of the organizations and we're pleased to have been of some assistance to the er, British Boxers' Asso Professional Boxers' Association er, in er, this launch and establishment we felt, because we've got the Scottish professional footballers, who are well established and er, are very much an integral part of the G M B and we've got the Northern Ireland er, footballers, we've got the rugby players and we've got speedway riders all of which come under. Mick, the National Officer has been er, the link between these organizations and I hope that the er, Professional erm, Boxers' Association will give some credit to the G M B in erm, establishing themselves and we hope, as an organization, that in the future that they can be successful and we can be sure they will be because they've not only got the likes of Barry but they've got many other, prominent er, boxers who will, I'm sure, establish erm, the Association in a very er, positive fashion. Can I, on behalf of er, the G M B, Barry erm, make a presen presentation to you... This is the er, first er, picture that was taken at the launch of the Professional Boxers' Association. We had it mounted and we're proud and pleased to be able to present that to you on behalf of the G M B. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Doug:] , of course, will er, go down the of history because it's their very first executives meeting. Many may they come back. Thank you. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Doug:] We had tried to get a couple of er, here in Portsmouth but he had to attend, so we thought as we prepared for this conference this morning er, on the miners, that it would be appropriate to get a miner's lamp to put and have them simply inscribed with the erm, the memory of the occasion, which turned out to be [speaker003:] [clapping] [John:] President, Tom erm, to President and Congress, ladies and gentlemen er, I'd first of all just like to say thank you, a big thank you for your support. The Professional Boxers' Association would try er, many years ago, and it didn't have the support of people like the G M B and the S P F. Erm, I know there are a lot of genuine boxers that are members of the G M B and I want to thank you because we just want to know that. Thank you very much indeed. [speaker003:] Professors er, Congress. Just very quickly I'd just like to endorse what Barry has said, erm. I was when I actually bumped into the Bishop of the other day. [clapping] But very, very quickly erm, I'm actually delighted that this organization has helped breathe the life into not only the Professional Boxers' Association, we are extremely grateful.. Thank you very much indeed. [clapping] [Dick:] Thanks very much indeed, Barry and don't let anybody tell anybody in the trade union movement that the trade union movement is not moving. It's moving constantly and we're increasing all the time. Thanks very much indeed, colleagues. Colleagues now, back to the agenda. G M B trains a number of motions in this particular section, two four four, two four five, two four six, two four seven and two four eight. There are a number of points of view the executive want to put and I'll be calling Paul at the end of that debate. First one, motion two four four. Southern Region to move. Other movers, if they would come down to the front, it would assist. Thank you. [Edna:] Frank, Southern Region. In the past, Congress, personnel departments and management have been in the privileged position of using computer technology. In some cases, using it in a re reactionary fashion. To hance enhance, both their arguments and their presentation when dealing with us, the trade unions. Most of us here, will have experienced graphs that assess the performance of the workforce, expenditure and income of the company. Most of these are a computer designed programs which effectively help our counterparts reinforce their position concerning our members, their conditions and their output. We, we advocate training for our members, encouraging bosses to offer them more. We too need to challenge this and update our own training facilities for our activists. It's time to turn the tables on the management. The G M B and the trade union generally need to have at least the resources the management have. How can we do this I hear you say. Firstly, the primary objective for us as a trade union must to be ensure G M B activists, shop stewards and officials all have access to training and computer literacy. And adequate software must be made available to ensure G M B activists can put into practice what they've been taught and use it to the labour movement's advantage. With the right sort of software package a world of information can be at the fingertips of the G M B activists involved. Obviously, in the initial stages not all activists would have access to terminals, but most will. In national negotiations, officers should make a priority of the need for terminals for our key activists under facilities agreements, possibly under machinery for negotiation. Software, could be designed in such a way that it can be exchanged and regularly updated including information on subjects such as C O S H H, labour law and industrial relations and social groupings within the G M B structure. What I'd also like to say is I think it's e ecol erm, ecologically correct as well for us to move into computer literacy and computer designed programs. I mean, the am amount of paper pushing we do in the G M B is incredible. Coming onto the second part of this motion, language training. This is another area that looks to our future. With the present developments in European Works Councils across national borders, we should be learning other languages. We will meet more trade unionists from other countries in the future and as Keith was saying early on, our link up with German trade unions is very favourable, it's a very positive step. However, will we follow the traditional British concept and ignore other languages being disrespectful at other nation's cultures and backgrounds?... We need to set an example as well, at this present time M S F are already in a position where they're training their activists in other languages. What we need to do is get our members and make them feel that they're part of Europe, not dispossessed by it, at this moment in the time there's not a lot for them in consideration of Europe. We need to try and make sure from the grass roots level up, we have involvement. To coin a phrase by John, I live in a very small house said Confucius, but my windows look out on a very large world. And that's what the G M B need to do, to grasp the nettle to move forward. Both these concepts, computer literacy and language training are ways of attacking present pessimism and mobilizing the will within our movement. Support these motions for a better future, arming our grass roots has never been more important. I move these motions. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Is there a seconder, formally seconded? Pardon. Yes, formally seconded. [Les:] No, no, seconded. [Dick:] Why don't you want to formally second it? You're just deliberately being awkward all the time. Can't win 'em all. [Les:] Mr President, Congress, Steven, Brussels Branch, Southern Region. Seconding motion two four four. Many delegates have talked about Europe this week, about the E C, about the directors' laws and regulations come out of it. One general line of agreement between all delegates is that we need to develop our links in Europe. We're in Europe, our role in Europe can only increase. What we should be looking at is how to maximum our potential to further the trade union interests in the process of European integration, because one thing's for sure. If the evolution of the E C continues, and it will, working people must be as organized as possible to ensure that trade unions are not forgotten in the race for a single market. So how do we get organized? We must continue to forge links with sister unions right across the E C, and what better ways to target our priorities in this area, by targeting the languages, training in the union. Especially for young members. This union aims at increasing the skills of its members with various training and education schemes. Let's look at how we can get tr language training incorporated into these schemes to give, particularly our young members, an additional skill to use in their trade union work. We must work together in Europe, colleagues. We must work with trade unionists of different nationalities and language groups to make sure that European movement is united and speaks with one voice. The British do not have the best reputation for language skills, in fact, we probably have the worst. Let's be progressive enough to show our commitment to sister unions in other European countries by giving our members the language tools needed for the European trade union movement. I second the motion. Please support. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Two four five? [speaker003:] Mel, Lancashire Region, moving motion two four five. President, Conference. The withdrawal of public funding for trade union training is yet another attack on the trade union movement within this country. In particular, an attack on this very union, the G M B. I say in particular our union because everyone here knows we probably have the largest and best training programme of any other union in Britain today. But there is a cost to that training, a large cost, and to some extent the allocation of public funding money offsets that cost. As I understand it, nearly a hundred and fifty thousand pound is allocated each year to the G M B. As that money disappears it will inevitably put more of a burden on the union. We need to ensure that we take the opportunity to look hard enough at the decisions which are to b er, to be made, to reassess how our training is to be provided. We've got a number of motions on the agenda asking for the C E C to look carefully at the cost of training at the National College and at the regional education courses. We had a motion which was put before Conference last year and it was carried and it was asking for a similar review to what's being asked for this morning. The cost of training should be very carefully considered. In that review which is being sought in the motion we need to think strategically, not just about our own provision, but to ensure that a large scale T U C provision is maintained. The T U C courses that are equally under threat, as pum public funding is withdrawn from them. The reality is the T U C provides training for more G M B representatives than does our own training programme and very often at considerably less, less cost, and certainly in my region, where we have a very close relationship with the T U, T U C, the training is of a very high standard. We must ensure that the T U C tr er, programme remains, otherwise the cost to our union funds will be astronomic. Therefore, we've got to review the training programme. We've got to grasp the nettle. Yes, there's going to be pain, but it's our future, what is at stake, when we talk about the education training of the activists within this organization. I call for, therefore for the C E C to bring back to Conference next year, a full report on how training should be given to the education and maintaining the activists of this union. Next year at Conference. Thank you. [Dick:] Thanks Mel. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Formally seconded? Formally seconded, thank you. Motion two four six, Education, Birmingham Region. John, Birmingham Region, moving motion number two four six. President, comrades. In nineteen eighty nine, Mrs Margaret Thatcher said, I do not see why we should pay for the education of conflict. And for once in her misbegotten life she was right. Because trade union education is conflict based. It's based on the fight for better working conditions, it's based on the fight for health and safety and it's based on the fight for fair laws. What Mrs Thatcher and those who followed her did not say, was that it would be Tory Party policy to cause conflict, in their unremitting attack upon our movement. Examples of their prejudice are contained within the anti-trade union legislation passed and the shame of the treatment meted out to our brothers and sisters, in such places as Dover, G C H Q, Timex, local government and the present piecemeal destruction of our National Health Service and the attendant deaths that go with it. You look round, you can see the results of this misery that they have caused on any housing estate in the country, in the eyes of our youngsters condemned to a life on the dole. To our men and women chucked on the redundancy scrap heap. Yes, Mrs Thatcher spoke the truth all right, but it was her truth, not ours. In nineteen seventy nine the grant for trade union education stood at one point six million. That may seem a lot of money. But not when you put it into context with the vast sums of money spent supporting privatization, or the salaries of over privileged, so called captains of industries, industries that once belonged to this nation. The grant has not improved in any real sense to today's figure of one point seven win wrong one point seven five million and now it's the government's intent to reduce the grant by stages until nineteen seventy, nineteen ninety seven it will be removed completely. This is the continuance of Thatcher's truth, passed on by Major and his gang of incompetents. It is the attempted destruction of our ability to educate each other. Why should they be interested in our education? It's simple. The first line of defence for the trade union movement is you. You're the ones who defend the grievances and the disciplines, you're the ones who prepare the information for the industrial tribunals and there's no doubt about it, comrades, this one is aimed at you, the representatives. If your ability to gain the skills and information needed to combat the many complex issues that you have to deal with is impaired, then the government and employers will have what they want. A workforce kept in ignorance and unable to organize. This is the goal of the government's plan. You'll not hear from them about the confusion methods used to present figures on profits or unemployment. You will not hear about the inequality shown to our women, nor will they tell you about the workers killed by unsafe standards. You will not see government courses on combat and crisis management. No, comrades, the only place you'll receive such training is with our union. No wonder they choose to attack it. This motion is about recognizing what they're up to and also the valuable service offered to stewards and members through our regional and national education courses. It's also about the advancement of your personal skills. Many of you who come to this rostrum this week will have been trained in the democracy of congress before you got here. Our training is the best that any union can offer. It's the training of equality, the training of research and a measured approach... Could you wind up now please. Right, President, and a measured approach to responsibilities and trust that is placed in you. I call upon you to maintain and improve that standard, to ensure that this government does not succeed in its attempt to deny working people the most valuable asset they can attain, knowledge. And with knowledge the result of fight for fair treatment for all workers. Okay President Colleagues, thanks very much indeed. Thanks a lot. I move. Thanks very much. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Two four six seconded formally? Formally seconded, thank you. Motion two four seven, Lancashire to move. [Mick:] John, Lancashire Region, moving motion two four seven er, the one you've all been waiting to support. Congress, colleagues, I wanna begin by stressing that this motion is not about reducing the level of training the G M B offers its members. What it is about is using our members' money to benefit the people who represent them... by moving the responsibility of training from national to regional level. That in, in turn will allow the C E C to dispose of the National College and in the process it should ensure this future is safe. We have real difficulties getting financial information regarding the National College. You will be aware that the National College warrants a whole page in the General Secretary's report. From that page eight, we can gleam the fact that seven, seventeen hundred stewards attended a total of a hundred and twenty four courses in nineteen ninety two. That is less than fourteen students a course. Also, a total of thirteen thousand, three hundred and fifty three delegates used it as a conference centre. In the mid eighties we invested our members money in a National Education Centre, and now ten years later it's become a Conference Centre and a hotel and we're not fully booked, can be used for training the stewards, along with the occasional Regional Council meeting for the Lancashire Region. Can I make a point to ya. Normally, or sometimes rather, we use the college for our Regional Council and I, I think on the last meeting we were discussing, the Regional Council members were discussing, the er, the amalgamation. And we were, how we were gonna combat it, and in the very next room were or rather holding a conference on how to do us in. But, in our own college. Congress, the G M B is renowned for its ability to represent people. Trust House Forte is equally famous for providing conference centres. Colleagues, the membership is going down, the contributions are going up, the education grant will be history by nineteen ninety six. The National College has now become a financial liability that this union can no longer justify. Regional training is the answer, where stewards will receive training based on the need of the industries they are employed in. This motion is not seeking to score points off anybody. What it is doing is hoping that the college, our union's future will be secure. Support the motion. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Two four seven formally seconded? Formally seconded, not formally seconded, Steve. [Eric:] I read no prejudice cos I'm not allowed to so. Steve, Lancashire Region. I'm at the rostrum this morning, supposedly seconding motion two four seven. The Lancashire Region, as the last speaker said, has tried through the proper channels to seek full financial information on the cost of running the college, and its finan financial burden on the union. It soon became apparent the way we were being footed about, we would have more chance of convincing Rupert Murdoch to stand as a Member of Parliament for the Labour Party. So, what's the reluctance to publicize the information we want? All we have in the General Secretary's report is one page. If you miss it it's on page eight. Yes, it tells us six hundred and forty seven thousand pound was raised to offset the G M B cost of retaining the college. The operative word being offset. What we wanted to know was how much does offset come to? In simple terms, what does it cost the union to keep the college open? If it's a great financial burden as we believe it is, that money, along with the money generated from the sale of the college, we will be better used spent on setting up regional ar educational system. Now I know this may cause a terrible dilemma for Alec and Bet Gilroy from, the proprietors of the Rovers Return, and you may well ask me, what's that got to do with this motion? For those of you that didn't know, several scenes of the National College are actually displayed in Coronation Street, so now at least you've got some useful information this week. Now, I've gotta tell ya, that in itself is enough for me to say close it, anything that's related to Co Coronation Street. Personally, forget as I say, I say it's enough for me. But seriously, I follow this report along with the Lancashire Region, the comments made by the mover of this motion and in the interests of financial commonsense, I urge the conference to support this motion. Thank you very much. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] You're speaking in opposition Bert, are ya? Well, come to the rostrum, I just wish to make a point first. Now colleagues, after the S O C report this morning, I indicated that we had a lot of business to complete, today and tomorrow. Now, most delegates so far this morning, have in fact cooperated with that. But we can't have a situation where people are picking and choosing, because everybody'll want to do it. Now, I know colleagues some would like to stay till Sunday, or maybe even Monday next week, but we're not in that situation, so I again, I do appeal to all colleagues, all colleagues, you know, to assist in formally seconding, and to thank those that have done it so far. Bert. [speaker010:] Yeah. Bert, the Fulham One branch, London Region. Erm, speaking in opposition to the motion to shut down the college. Mike in the audience and he'll probably give me a rollicking afterwards, cos I haven't prepared anything about this and I suspect I won't be able to speak till the red light. The college is not is not an ideal site for education. The architect of the college built the hotel, a bar and stuck a couple of classrooms on the end. Not withstanding that, I think it plays an extremely valuable role in the education and the training of our activists. It should not be looked upon as a cost, as a burden, but as an investment for our continuing prosperity in the trade union movement and more specifically the G M B. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker010:] People like myself, wouldn't have had the bottle, wouldn't have dreamed of coming up here if it hadn't been for the good work of people like Mike and Harry, who in my opinion do a superb job in training me, you, all of us in this union. Uniquely within the trade union movement, the G M B has a centre of excellence in Manchester, because that's what it is. As I mentioned those tutors are possibly unrivalled in the world of trade union education. Of course we should try and cut costs. People like me in the past used to rail that we had commercial enterprises using the college. I'll accept that, if we can nick some money from the private sector to educate our activists, so be it. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker010:] Naturally, I understand the balance of, the balance has got to be kept right and we shouldn't sacrifice the training of our activists to get more revenue in by renting it out to commercial firms, UNISON, I don't know, the Pet Food Retailers' Association or whatever. It's got to be kept in perspective. But I've just briefly looked at the education and training part of the General Secretary report and it says here, National College rammed a hundred and twenty four courses over a thirty week period attracting approximately seventeen hundred G M B representatives, a wide range of residential courses. Well, that's not bad is it for starters? And there's something else you should bear in mind as well. I do understand the need for regional education because clearly it's less expensive, but it's not just what you learn in that classroom at National College and any of, anybody who've been there will know that. You learn just as much in the corridors, in the bars, in the grounds, talking to your colleagues, fuelling each other 's enthusiasm and I certainly, every time I go to that college, I come back home full of renewed hope, fire and passion. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker010:] Oppose this motion. [Dick:] Two four nine, Birmingham. [Doug:] President, Congress. Cliff er, Birmingham and West Midlands Region, moving motion two four nine. This is addressed to an area which we seem to miss in our training. Some four and a half years ago when I was elected as a branch secretary of a fairly substantial branch in the Birmingham Region, I had two hours with the then finance officer and he said, well it didn't last the two hours, and he said er, well you know all there is to know now, about how to run this branch. If you've got any problems have a look and see what people have done before, but if you make any mistakes, we'll write and tell you what you've done wrong. I haven't had a lot of letters from Regional Office, I've had one or two. Er, I know I've made some mistakes which they've missed and I've managed to put those right as I went on. It is difficult, especially with larger branches who still retain some considerable cash collection, I turn over somewhere in the region of eight thousand pounds a year, which isn't bad in, in this day and age. I've got to advise auditors er, how they can do their job, I've gotta advise people of the correct forms, the correct er, way of going about things and what benefits there are available. A lot of the benefits, yes we know about. But there are things that we're not avail er, we're not aware of and I'm looked on as something of an expert, so God help those people who come and ask me er, what there is, what forms they should use and what is available on the, in the organization, if I'm looked upon as an expert. What I want to, for you to do, is to pass this and for the C E C to look at providing some education specifically to the administration and the running of branches. Let's become professional at branch level, because at branch level is where we carry the administration of this organization. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion two four nine formally seconded? Thank you very much. I call Paul to put the C E C position. A jogging Paul. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm Paul, London Region er, putting the response from the C E C. Can I first very quickly er, congratulate Sue and Eddie on behalf of the London Region. We understand they're about to or shortly become grandparents. Erm, well done er, the only thing that Eddie now needs is Hughie 's elocution pack and all his Christmases will have come at once. Erm, Congress C E C has asked you to accept motion two four four with the qualification, support motions two four five, two four six and two four eight and accept motion two four nine also with the qualification. We are seeking the withdrawal of motion two four seven. Motion two four four deals with the fundamental issues of new technology and developments towards greater union cooperation in Europe. The issue of technology training is currently under review and the G M B, W E A partnership in establishing the Labour Telematics Training Centre at National College for a pilot project lasting twelve months is proof of how seriously we take this subject. Frank, an initial training project er, language training project in support of the G M B initiatives is shortly to start at National College. We really need a bit of time to evaluate that and that's the qualification that we're putting on that. The idea of financial and administrative training in motion two four nine is a good one. However, it would be virtually impossible to force that onto people, on the branch officers and we recommend acceptance again with that qualification. Just er, slightly deviating, I come to motion two four seven, which asks the C E C to dispose of the National College. We recognize, all of us I'm sure, that during periods of tight, financial stringency most sectional activity is beyond examination and inspe inspection... as Mel who moved two four five requested. But you know erm, the training committee's view that National College has already achieved savings and approved efficiency while mainin maintaining standards, and the huge number, over seven thousand G M B members participating in some form of activity at a National College last year. The college provides a National vocal point for the G M B and to both National and International vis visitors, symbolizing the best of this organization stands for. I think, that the movers of two four seven did not create, or seek to create an intention of concern, but you know there's something else that many speakers have done this week when they've come to this rostrum. They've talked about the way that employers, that employers treat workers, and do you know what that resolution does, because it's printed in the preliminary agenda and I make no apologies for saying this. Printed in the preliminary agenda and the staff who work diligently on your behalf all the year round, see a resolution like that on the conference floor, about whether or not they're gonna have a job at the end of this week it's not the best way to do business. [speaker003:] [clapping] [John:] I don't believe John, that that was the intent of the resolution, I'm certain of that, that is the effect and I think in the interests of everybody, I'd ask you on behalf of the C E C to withdraw that motion. If you won't, I hope you, if you won't, then I'll ask Congress to oppose. Thank you very much President. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Colleagues, I put the motions to the vote. First one's motion two four four. That's being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two four five is being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two four six is being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two four seven, John, you're being asked to withdraw. Right. C E C are therefore asking you to oppose the motion. All those in favour of the motion? Against? That's lost. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Motion two four nine is being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Thanks very much indeed colleagues. Colleagues, we now come to part of our agenda that's extremely pleasant. As I mentioned to you on Sunday morning we usually deal with, usually deal with this particular matter on Sunday morning, but we decided that because our new young members' section is growing in its influence and activity and, of course, we now have resolutions on the agenda that this now warranted er, separate attention er, on the agenda. And I refer, of course, to the G M B youth award. And of course, if this union and the trade union movement is to prosper then we must encourage our young people to come through. To come through, to become conveners, branch secretaries, yes regional secretaries and occasionally general secretaries of the union, and we need more women. So I'm particularly pleased this morning that the award is going to a young woman and I'm equally more pleased that it's going to a young woman from the Lancashire Region. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] And I'm more pleased that it's going to a young member in the textiles section because that's a very difficult section. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] We all know textiles has had the grind for years and years and years and all our activity, all our activists, the shop stewards and the branch secretaries and conveners in that particular section, they need a lot of support, especially the young people. And in this connection, the award this year goes to Catherine who already has got a fairly formidable pedigree in the movement, shop steward, member of a branch committee, trades council, young members' advisory committee, the National Committee but I think best thing so far, she's actually chaired the T U C young members' conference and that's an achievement for this union as well. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] So, I hope she goes places, I really do because young members and young trade unionists in this union are gonna get this union's support so, go back to your branches and tell everybody that. We want 'em to come through. Colleagues, it's my pleasure to make the award to Catherine on behalf of your, your union. [speaker003:] [clapping] [speaker007:] Thank you. Er, I'd like to say thanks to me branch for nominating me up first place for this award. I'd also like to say special thanks to me Regional Secretary, Ernie and also Regional President, Mel. Er, special thanks also to Neil for all support and encouragement that he's given me. I'd like to say that I do sit on T U C youth forum and the G M B have the strongest, most active youth section so let's keep it that way and give our young members all the support and encouragement they deserve. I would just like again to say special thanks to Ernie, Mel and Neil for all their support and I hope they're gonna be first in bar to buy me a drink. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Okay, now in this connection colleagues, the Deputy General Secretary's report, pages one O eight, one O nine, one one O, one one one, one one two and one one three, and I call composite motion number nine, unemployment of young people, Southern Region. [Les:] Congress, Mr President, Steven, Brussels branch, Southern Region. Congress, there's a very familiar phrase which is often used in the English language, a phrase which many of you may have used yourselves from time to time. Youngsters today, it is said, have never had it so good. You've all heard it and many of you may still believe it. But what young members, what young people find ironic, is that the same people who are telling them they've never had it so good, in the same breath accuse them of being responsible for high community crime levels, drug and alcohol abuse and the violence. But the funny thing which strikes many young people is that they are being made scapegoats, then it is certainly not because they've had it so good. One million of them are under twenty five years of age, a disproportionately high number, you'll agree. This figure is a national disgrace and reflects totally the continued failure of this government to invest in high quality education and training for young people. Despite all the fine statements that young people are the future of the country, they are still a disadvantaged group and will remain so until they are made a priority policy target. One million youngsters unemployed, colleagues, what a waste of human talent and energy, what a waste of a vital community resource. And imagine the demoralizing effect that this is having on them. Young people three, four years out of college and have never had a job. Is there any wonder that their attention and energies are diverted to elsewhere. But for those who do have a job, it's hardly plain sailing. Cheap labour, low pay and conditions er, poor conditions are all characteristics of the young person at work. They are discriminated against because of their age. We can all think of spec specific cases, I will describe just one. Jim left school at sixteen, joined a Y T S scheme, years ago, with an electrics company. He was on the scheme for a year and then stayed as a trainee earning thirty pounds a week. He stuck this out for three years and finally qualified as an electrician in his own right. The same firm immediately sacked him, because they would have to increase his wages and he's never had a proper job since. Just one example of how vulnerable the young person is in the workplace. We can all think of other examples. Colleagues, young people need the special and particular protection of the unions. They must be a priority target group, so we can prevent exploitation and discrimination and provide them with adequate training in health and safety and other matters. In this context the campaign for a minimum wage has never been more urgent. But this union does have a good track record in campaigning for young people. The young members section has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years. Young members have this excellent magazine, Issue, which you'll find in front of you this morning. It is the only union youth magazine which exists in the U K and it specifically addresses young people's problems, fears and hopes. My only criticism is that it doesn't come out often enough. We need more issues of Issue, Mr President. But let's look at how we can increase young peop members' participation in this union, at how we can address the problem of recruiting young people. Fourteen years of Tory government have taken their toll on the impression, on young people's impression of trade unions. These impressions are more likely to be negative than positive, or even neutral. Never forget colleagues, that there are thousands and thousands of young people in our society who are frustrated, disappointed, angry and in desperate need of union protection. They are the future of the G M B, let's get them in and let's keep them in. I move. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Comp nine formally seconded? Formally seconded? Thanks very much. Motion two four eight. Youth G M B Scotland to move. [speaker003:] , G M B Scotland, moving motion two four eight. President, Congress. We must recognize the need to encourage a youth of the G M B to participate more fully within the union. The G M B is now the leading union in youth affairs. Recruitment of the young into the G M B is essential, as youth represents the future of this country as well as the future of the union. However, the reality for young people whom we represent in the nineteen nineties is that they face the prospects of having to survive in a declining British economy. Youth unemployment is now a serious problem in Britain and many under the age of twenty five have never had a real, permanent job. According to a Labour Par a Labour Party survey based on information from Scotland's job centres, eighteen to twenty few twenty four year old out of work has risen by twenty eight percent since nineteen ninety. Many youngsters have never known the satisfaction of being handed a wage packet and it can be so soul destroying for them. The feeling of helplessness must be so overpowering as young one, as one young man told me, we are the forgotten ones. This government is doing nothing to give them hope and their pride back. The G M B is a legal union in youth affairs. We have appointed a National Youth Officer and we have been there leading the way, ensuring that young people have a voice in Britain's second largest union. Every region round the country now has a regional advisory youth committee and nearly all has an annual youth conference. More training of young members should be provided as well as distribution of literature aimed at young people. We must encourage a youth to become shop stewards and safety representatives. We must ensure that black and ethnic minorities are represented in our youth section and those with disabilities who are very often forgotten about. The youth represents the future of our country and our union. Educate them early of the benefits of being in a trade union. We would also benefit from their outlook and their fresh ideas. The young will encourage their friends and workmates, not only increasing the membership but mating, making our union stronger. I move. [clapping] [Dick:] Two four eight formally seconded? Formally seconded, thank you. Motion four three four, Northern Region to move. [Les:] President, Congress. Sean, Northern Region, moving motion four three four. Congress, any delegate who lives in a university town or who has a son or daughter at college can testify to the special promotions that all banks offer to students. Some banks, colleagues, offer twenty five pound when the student first opens an account. Some offer a free filofax, and others offer book tokens or record vouchers. Banks offer such goodies, not because students are rich and represent good business to the banks, not colleagues, because out of the goodness of their hearts they believe students need a helping hand. No, all of Britain's high street banks offer special rates and free gifts to students because they know that those in training and attending college are a, are the prospective workforce of tomorrow. They also know that once a person joins a bank, in most cases, they do so for life. In short, colleagues, it's an investment. Motion four three four, Congress, calls upon the C E C to adopt the same attitudes as the banks. Not to give freebies but to invest in the workers of the future. After all colleagues, General Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army said, why should the devil have all the best tunes? Congress, I urge you to support motion four three four. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Dick:] Four three four formally seconded? Thanks very much. C E C are seeking reference for four three four and I call Paul. [speaker003:] Paul, Southern Region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress. The C E C is asking you to support composite nine, motion two four eight and refer motion four three four. Composite nine is about putting young people back to work and that has to be a priority in a year which has seen youth unemployment hit the one million mark. Our own young members' section earlier this year, highlighted the plight of those hundreds of thousands of sixteen year olds, who started nineteen ninety three without a job. This summer there'll be trying by thousands more as they come out of school and straight into obscurity. Victims of the government's youth training guarantee. The unset seen scandal of Major's Britain, a hundred and twenty thousand, sixteen to twenty four year olds, not on the register, not in a job, no scheme to join and no benefit available. A recent survey found one in six young people, including some of school age, earning less than one pound an hour. What sort of employers are there out there, that exploiting these young people? It's a disgrace and we should campaign and find out where these employers are and publicly put 'em to shame. What a way to treat young people. What a way to run an economy.

[Wolff:] Okay so last week we looked at the participatory model of democracy which in essence of Russo's Theory in three ways. First of all, it allows much more room for debate, discussion, dissension, even disobedience in Russo's Theory. a consequence of giving up the assumption that there's at least an easily recognizable general will. So either you say there's no general will or there is something like a general will, but it is not easily recognizable and for either reason you would want to be much more tolerant of the role minorities, either as a way of getting to the truth, or erm as a way of as it were making up the truth as you're going along. So that's the first difference between participatory model and Russo's model there's much more room for debate and consequent toleration of minority. Secondly, it gives up the distinction between sovereign and the executive in the sense that the people are not restricted only to making laws, but they can also get involved in decisions about particular acts of will. So for example, er on Russo's model we saw the people are not consultive on the issue of whether the State should go to war or not, because that's a particular act and must be left to the executive. In the participatory democracy the people would certainly decide that. [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] The third difference was that the participatory model and it is perhaps the most distinctive about it, extends democracy to other institutions of civil society, including the family, the workplace, local governments and so on. Now I discussed three objections to the participatory model last week. The first one is John Stuart Mill's objection which is that we can't leave everything to the people. At some point individuals must administer, you can't have a committee carrying out the [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] committee. You must need some individual point by that committee and the same is true for governments. So it is not possible, not practically possible to leave everything to the people. We'll come back to that objection. The second objection was the problem of agenda setting in a participatory democracy. How is it that the people come to be discussing certain issues [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] rather than other issues? How do those issues get decided and I thought there's no sensible answer. Thirdly there's the old objection of participatory democracy that it simply takes up too much time and this is not a trivial objection, because the thought is not that it's simply time-consuming, but because it's so [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] time-consuming, it's destructive of other things we value so that we value er artistic creation, enjoyment, conversation and so on. These things, there would simply be no time left for [speaker002:] [cough] [cough] [Wolff:] erm in political decision making. Okay, so much for last week. This week I want to start by reconsidering that first objection but we can't leave everything to the people. At some point we need administrators to carry out the will of the people. Now the defenders of participatory democracy would consider this as a very weak objection. What they would say is that we have to, perhaps we do have to leave things to the individual, but we should leave as little possible to individuals, as little as practically possible so that we should the people involved in making all the important decisions, particularly the carrying out of them that we have to leave to particular appointed individuals. [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] So erm we can cast this in a different context. We've got really two things in play here, one is the role of individuals who administer and the other is the role of the people, so we have a question of what is the proper role of the people and what is the proper role of the individual administrators. We've seen the answers from participatory democracy as little as possible to the individuals as much as possible to the people. At the other extreme we have something like Plato's system, where the people are given no role at all and everything is left to individual experts, individual administrators, so Plato's system is at one everything is left to the individuals, participatory democracy [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Wolff:] as little as possible is left to individuals. Somewhere in the middle we have Russo's system where the people make laws but no do nothing else... everything else is left to appointed individuals. There's a fourth possibility that we haven't looked at yet... and this is a possibility of representative government where the people simply elect lawmakers, the people don't make laws they elect the people to make laws. So in this case the people who carry out the will of the people make the laws on behalf of the people. So representative government gives some role to the will of the people, some role to the individual to individuals, but erm in a way less role [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] to the will of the people than participatory democracy or Russo All the individuals do is elect their governors, so this is the... idea that Russo called not democracy but that to of aristocracy. We vote in a group of people who then in this view, Mill's view take laws on our behalf. They also appoint administrators to carry out those laws. So this is a much more familiar model of democracy to us than any of the others that we've seen so far [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] and for Mill, representative democracy was the only way democracy could survive in the modern world. He... particularly was concerned about problems of scale as a practical problem, that is it may well be in a small town you could have a direct democracy, a face-to-face community where people can talk to each other and argue with each other and meet on a regular basis, but as soon as you get cities, countries, nations, direct democracy of any sort is erm absurd [speaker002:] [sneeze] [cough] [Wolff:] Well and we have seen one... response for people now making Mill that is that his objections are not being finessed by computer technology, they don't want to get back into that type of argument, because this is really not the most important argument against direct democracy. To understand Mill's view or at least to see why Mill makes the argument he does make, er I E not just the argument but other arguments which represent democracy. We have to understand first of all what Mill thinks the proper function of government [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Wolff:] and in his view governments have two roles. There are two things that governments ought to be doing. Firstly they ought to improve the citizens, both morally and intellectually, so it's the role of the government to make better citizens. Secondly they have to manage the affairs of government well, or rather erm, so they have to manage the affairs of the state. What does this second claim come to what is its state of the affairs of the state well, well we should assume that Mill ultimately utilitarian standard so that erm... to manage the state's affairs well is to maximize general happiness. However, it's surprising that in on representative government utilitarianism barely surfaces and that almost no mention at all is made of utility apart from in a very general way. However erm so two things to say about that, I think we can assume [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] will ultimately apply utilitarian standard, but he doesn't make much of it here and he relies on a much more intuitive idea of what manage things well and he assumes that different branches of government will have different standards of success and that we will be able to tell pretty much whether they're doing well or badly. Now this is rather a banal claim I suppose that erm the proper function of government is to manage things well, I mean who would have doubted that, but the other claim that governments, one of the roles of governments is to improve the citizens is more surprising, particularly for a liberal view... and there's a more standard liberal position now would be that the moral well-being citizens is not a proper matter of governmental concern. Or they should, the citizens should be er stopped from er attacking each other and so on, but whether the citizens turn out to be morally good or morally bad in other ways in private matters, whether they're morally improving or not, is simply not the business of governments. It is surprising to hear that Mill doesn't hold this view that he thinks that... erm... the moral health of the citizens is of concern to the government and it actually gives, although he doesn't seem to recognize this, this gives a hostage to fortune to his conservative critics because of course they can say, did say that liberalism was very damaging of er morality of the public and so we need a far more restrictive type of regime than Mill allows us. And anyway I'm going to leave that on one side now because it's more erm a problem to reconciling Mill's views about liberty with his views about a proper government rather than directly about governments, so I'm just going to note that and move on now. Okay well suppose that erm Mill is right that these are the two proper functions of government. Given that he thinks he can demonstrate, easily demonstrate the advantages of representative governments to show why [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] is far better than any alternative.... First of all he contrasts representative democracy with what he calls enlightened despotism which is really something like places guardianship. Now Mill concedes that the guardian, the despots might manage the affairs of the state tolerably well that there's no reason of principle why a very enlightened despot couldn't do fairly well, although Mill claims that no despot could do as well as a good democracy. I found it hard to find Mill's arguments for this, although he seems to be, he seems to be arguing the point over several pages, but erm we get pretty much rhetorical claims and evidence and so he wants us to consider those states which have been ruled by despots with those contemporary states which have been democracies England versus Spain say and he thinks it's obvious which type of system we ought to prefer. But he's got no, as far as I can see he's got no convincing argument that democracy will do better, but that doesn't matter because he thinks that the decisive criticism of enlightened despotism is that it won't improve the moral or intellectual well-being of the citizens, but if people are excluded from political decision making, they will have no incentive to educate themselves or morally improve themselves, or he thinks if they do, if a despot does allow for the moral improvement of the citizens, then citizens will no longer accept despotism so that despotism is in a way self-defeating here and if it... one of the proper functions of government it can't survive. No morally and intellectually well educated people will be prepared to tolerate despotism rather than democracy. So that's Mill's argument against enlightened despotism. More interesting is his implicit comparison with direct democracy. Now he doesn't actually make the concession I think it's consistent of what he says, that he ought to concede that direct democracy might be better at improving the citizens, because after all the citizens have much more to do on in service of the state... but his view is that direct democracy has the opposite failure to guardianship, that while it might be better at improving citizens it's absolutely hopeless in managing the affairs of the state and his reasons for that is that we need experts with experience in order to carry out the affairs of government and although these people ought ultimately to be held responsible to the people, people shouldn't sit in judgment them in every one of their decisions. So here he has erm quite a long discussion in the fact that if you have inexperienced people, they will often make the make a quick initial assessment of a situation which is being and rejected by a more experienced person. So the experienced person will always be able to take the inexperienced person, it's not as simple as that, but if you make the administrators responsible to the people in all their decisions, then you have as Mill says inexperience sitting in judgment on experience, ignorance sitting in judgment on knowledge. So you have to insulate the, the administrators from direct control of the people if you, if the administrators are going to make good decisions. The people just have to trust the administrators at a certain point, rather than trying to... er... second guess all of their decisions. So a direct democracy will lead to a very inefficient running of the state. Therefore representative democracy presents itself as the best compromise. It can manage the affairs [sneeze] of the state very well and it can improve the citizens. Well how does it do that? Why does representative democracy improve the citizens? Because after all critics will say if representative democracy isn't the best practical realization of democracy but simply a sham, after all remember Russo's comments on England, the people of England think they're free but they're mistaken, they're free once every five years when they elect their rulers. Now... Russo then representative democracy isn't a refinement of democracy to make it appropriate for the modern world, but a way of giving away all the merits of democracy. Now Mill accepts that representative democracy can be as bad as Russo supposes it is, but there are aspects of Mill's views which make him sound very much like Russo as well. For Mill it's very important that citizens are educated for their role... and although participation on a na national level has to be something that can be restricted only to the few, Mill nevertheless wants active participation of the citizens in other aspects.... So for example he's... Mill is very keen on the idea of local participation, that everyone should at some point in their lives play a role in local government in some level. Also he speaks very much in favour of jury service that he thinks that everyone is liable to jury service has a number of advantages. One is that it makes people... er... it gives people experience of participation which is itself an improving... matter. It makes people consider issues from an impartial moral point of view. Also it helps one in practice for voting. So jury service he thinks is a terrific way of improving the jurors. He doesn't defend it as the best way of getting the correct decision, he doesn't defend it, or he doesn't solely defend it that way he doesn't defend it either on the idea that people have right to be tried by their peers for example which is the most likely defence now, but he defends jury service on the grounds of the effect it has on the jurors which is quite a novel erm. In fact there's been some discussion of this lately, John Elston has argued that if jurors knew that that's why they were chosen to go on the jury, it would destabilize the princi the practice of it because if you knew you were going on jury just for self-education rather than to get the right results out the other end, then this wouldn't give you any way of motivating yourself properly for the jury. Well, I'm not sure that's correct, but anyway Mill thinks that these ideas local participation of jury service are ways of getting people involved at the highest practical level of participation. So in other words, Mill accepts the arguments of Russo the arguments of the participatory er theorists that participation in government, participation in public affairs is a good thing, people should be encouraged to participate and it has an improving effect. [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] The worry is, is if we allow participation above a certain level, this will lead to gross inefficiencies in a governmental process. So there's a maximum level of participation [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] societies like ours. He thinks this is an question but in small societies may be a much higher level of democratic erm intervention at all levels would be possible, but it's only in modern societies that participation on a very extensive scale becomes absolutely impossible.... Okay so this is a rough sketch of the basic outlines, now let's try and fill in a bit more details. [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Wolff:] One question that we raised a number of times is [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Wolff:] when people vote in this democracy, what should they be doing? Should they be voting in their own interests, or should be they be voting... out of their view of what is right, what is the good? It's normally thought that within the utilitarian tradition people should be required to vote on their interests. Because after all the right decision is to find in terms of general happiness and so you would have thought that voting was the best way of finding out where their general happiness lies. So there'd be something rather odd about people voting out of moral motivation for a utilitarian because they would be voting their estimate of where the general happiness lies, rather than putting their input into the sum from which someone else can calculate where the general happiness lies. So it's normally thought that within the utilitarian tradition, voters are required to vote their interests and then the democratic procedure tells us where the general happiness lies roughly speaking. But Mill doesn't argue this way, Mill argues that erm allowing people to vote their interests is corrupting of them. If people are voting in their interests, why not then sell their votes to the highest bidder? They have no obligation to use it responsibly if their, if they can use their vote selfishly. Rather he thinks that people ought to vote on the basis of what they think is right [cough] so he uses an with the jury service at this point. He thinks that justice jurors should put their personal interest to one side. So should voters, it would be rather absurd I think, well Mill thinks, that if jurors were expected to come to a decision on the basis of what they would prefer, would you prefer this person to be sent down or would you prefer them to get off. That's not the question, the question is is it right for this person to be found guilty, is it right for this person to be found innocent? Mill thinks that... voting is to be ideally modelled on this er jury service idea so that's another reason why jury service is so important for all citizens. All citizens need a highly concentrated er episode in their lives where all they do is think about what is right in the circumstances and this will give them good practice, good training to being an enlightened voter. Again I'll come back to this point about motivation because it's very important later on. So erm this is Mill's counter-motivation. He also realizes that there are certain threats or problems with democracy. Some of these we've considered before but I'll tell you how Mill feels on them. One of them, this is not the first in the but one of them is that democracy may well throw up unworthy rulers. This is the point erm, well Plato made the point that the people we most want to rule us are probably the ones that are the least likely to want to take on that duty and Ben Williams made the same point the other way round that the people who rise to the top in politics are likely to be the ones that we would least like to have governing us. So I think I made this point before that the people who are right at the top of politics are the ones who are very good at flattery, duplicity, manipulation and so on and these, are these really the qualities we want in our government? So, Mill thinks we need erm... Thanks. Mill thinks we need certain safeguards to make sure that unworthy rulers don't present themselves. One thing he says which is... erm a current topic is that we should limit the election expenses of any candidate. His thought is that how can we trust anyone who's prepared to pay their own money to get elected? If someone is going to put off a lot of their own money in order to get into parliament, we can, then we can hardly trust them to look to the general interests once they're there, they'll want a return on their investment of some sorts. So anyone who's putting up a lot of their own money is untrustworthy and there should be limitation on how much people can stand, erm Mill actually goes into some figures at this point and rather quaintly says erm either fifty pounds or a hundred pounds ought to be adequate and I don't know what that translates to now. Erm, so there should be a limitation of election expenses. In fact makes the claim that election expenses ought to be met from the public purse rather than the private purse of the candidates [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] tax revenues and I should think Mill would be happy with that idea. Although erm his second idea second way of limiting the possibilities on is rather more difficult to accept now... and his claim is that we shouldn't pay members of parliament, that people who go to parliament ought to be doing it out of duty and not out of er interest. What he says is that erm... you know when he was writing of six hundred and fifty eight seats in parliament, I don't know how many there are now, but he says if we allowed for people to be paid, then we have as it were six hundred and fifty eight prizes to people's six hundred and fifty eight jobs for people and he says and this is rather astonishing to hear, to read this is that it will attract adventurism of low class to er parliament if we pay members of parliament. Well what about those people who are morally worthy, I take it when he says low class, he doesn't mean low moral class, but mean low social class as well he probably means both things actually. What about those people of a low social class who are of a high moral class, what about them? Well he gives the example of a contemporary member of parliament, Mister Andrew Marvel who apparently was erm, because members of parliament were not paid at this time, he was sponsored by his constituents, so they subscribed to a he was so good they managed to subscribe to and he thinks that this is the ideal solution, if someone is really worthwhile, then their constituents would be happy to pay their salary directly, rather than, than have salaried jobs. Okay so this strikes us as a rather eccentric claim er he does qualify it, he says that there may be cases where there aren't enough people of independent means in a country to present themselves, he doesn't mean England here he means some of the dependent territories and then members of parliament should be paid compensation rather than a salary. So in other words they should be paid the salaries they would have been got getting in whatever their other line of work would have been, rather than special rates of the job of an M P. I mean it may well be that we have in this country we have erm pretty much Mill's system because MPs get paid relatively little bearing in mind what most of them could be getting elsewhere, so maybe we've got something like Mill's system but it strikes us as rather a bizarre suggestion that MPs shouldn't be paid to prevent adventurous and lower classes becoming MPs. Okay so we have safeguards against unworthy rulers, much more important though Mill is worried about people voting on the wrong motives. So I've said before that erm... Mill wants people to vote just in the same way that people cast their votes in a jury on the basis of what's right. He realizes that they can't, people can't be guaranteed to do this and he points out there are four different motivations that people might have that conflict with the er moral motivations. First of all there's personal interest, secondly there's class interest... thirdly there's rather amusingly some mean feeling in his own mind, so he has the idea that people might just be rather grumpy or something when they're going to cast their, their vote and go to some rather destructive policy. I suppose you might think in a case now you might think that er... er certain people aren't entitled to welfare benefits or something that [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] and vote for the parties that excludes them, but that mean the sort of thing he he doesn't make much of that. Fourthly erm there's the problem of coercion that is some people might be forced to cast their vote one way or another or feel they're forced to cast a vote one way or another... erm which is something we are less erm familiar with. The reason why we're less familiar with that is that we have a secret ballot and so there is no way of knowing how someone has cast their vote, and so there's no way of effectively forcing someone to cast their vote one way or another. However, Mill was against a secret ballot, Mill thought votes ought to be cast publicly and the reason for this is that he thought people ought to be voting on their view of what is right and so therefore they ought to be publicly accountable. People are much less likely to vote in their own interests, much less likely to vote in their class interests if other people know how they're voting. Mill also thinks this is a very good way of introducing female suffrage at this point which he is very much in favour of, if you had a, if you had a vote on it should if you vote if er there was a... vote among the male electors about whether women should be given the vote and there was a public ballot, then it's very unlikely they would vote against the extension of franchise because their wives and daughters would be able to see what they've done, so he thinks that erm the only reason for having a secret ballot is that you're rather ashamed of what you're doing and that if you have a public ballot people will vote much more responsibly. Now Mill realizes that the objection to this is the last problem coercion, that if people's votes are known, then some people might be able to put pressure on others to vote one way rather than another and as I said why the secret ballot was brought in in the first place. For Mill's view is that coercion is now less of a worry than people voting on their class interest or their personal interest.... Er here erm you can form your own views about whether Mill's right or wrong, I mean that the situation of a secret ballot was brought in to erm overcome as one where the local industrist industrialist who employed half the member of the town was also standing for parliament. Now erm in this case would your job be safe if your vote was known and you didn't vote for your boss? I mean it seems to me in those cases a secret ballot is highly desirable and coercion would be more of a danger than people voting er from the mo wrong moral motivation. But it might just be that we can't have both and we can't ensure that people vote from the right from moral motivation rather than personal interest and we can't ensure vote [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] on coercion [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] erm... at the same time so perhaps other remedies are necessary. Now the other remedies have is one which is rather distinct of Mill [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] that he thinks that erm [cough] of all of these forced motivations class interest is the most damaging... and... he argues there's a remedy for this, we'll see why it's a remedy in a minute, that certain people ought to be given more than one vote... so that although everyone should have some votes, not everyone should have the same number of votes. In particular he thinks the educated should have at least two votes, he doesn't say how many erm that's a matter determined case-by-case I take it, erm erratically it could be a thousand votes I mean he doesn't rule that out, he doesn't say it has to be more than one er two, but erm his view is that the educated to a specially privileged in a specially privileged position because they are erm more able to use their vote sensibly or to be given more than one vote, so we need now there's going to be a question erm how do you know who the educated people are to make such suggestions, anyone with a university degree will be pleased to hear gets more than one vote on Mill's system. Anyone who enters the liberal profession so accountancy, medical and so on erm he made some other suggestions which we'll look at shortly. But there is something of a tension in Mill's view, because he thinks that erm... it's very important that if there is plural voting then the people who only have one vote should be prepared to accept the situation, so that the reasons why these people are given extra votes should be reasoned that the public, the uneducated accept... past critics have pointed out if that's going to be the case, why is it necessary to give these people extra votes, give the educated actual votes, because if the uneducated accept that the decisions of the educated are worth more than their own decisions, the opinions of the educated are worth more than the opinions of the uneducated, if they really do accept that, what's to stop them just following the decisions of the educated in their own vote? Why not simply take advice? So there's no reason why these people should be given more votes rather their superior status can be... recognized by giving them more informal influence. I was actually astonished to find Mill making exactly this argument against another proposal in erm a later chapter because he considers a possibility and some people have put forward the view apparently, I haven't heard of this, erm in the version that Mill discusses, that the two stage action where we vote for people who then go to vote for the members of parliament so the individual people don't vote directly for members of parliament but they vote for people who then have elections an election among themselves. This is rather like the American system of presidential elections except that in the American system, the people who are voted for are tied to a particular candidate, so it's really just erm a convoluted way of having a direct system rather than a genuinely indirect system here. But Mill considers what, what reasons could there possibly be for having this two stage process. The arguments given in favour is that we vote for the wise and then the wise go on to make a proper final decision about who's best. Mill says exactly what I just said in response of him that is if the people are prepared to accept these why what's to stop them consulting and asking for advice about how they should cast their vote and so Mill later on gives a response to his own suggestion about plural voting in effect without realizing that what he's done. Anyway that's not important, the important thing is that he makes this, this idea that the educated should be erm given plural votes, in order to protect democracy being distorted by class interest. Now the most important threat to democracy and the way in which class interest may establish itself is Mill thinks through stupidity and this is the most er challenging threat to democracy. The, the, the numerical majority he says may just not have the intelligence to make the right decisions and what he's particularly concerned about is that the uneducated poor who he calls the numerical majority will vote to equalize property. Now his... argument against this is not that actual right to property, but it's actually against the interests of the uneducated poor to equalize property [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] if property is equalized then the economy will so he uses some sort of incentive argument here and maybe some sort of undertones here that inequalities are necessary to make the worse off better off than they would have been without them, but he thinks the uneducated poor may well be too stupid [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] to understand this so they may go to their immediate selfish interest rather than their long-term interest. There's a further point that the effects of the policy may not strike in the... first generation anyway, it may be long-term before er equalization of property has the effect and other things so these people might, might vote in their own class interest against the interest of future generations. Now Mill seems to be very unsure what to do about this because he doesn't want to say that the poor should be disenfranchised, because after all everyone is entitled to their say in government, but he does seem to be worried that if the poor are given an equal say or the uned uneducated poor are given an equal say, then they will make a very bad decision, a decision which is against their own interests... and this is one reason why he favours plural voting because he recognizes that the numerical majority might make a... erm wrong decision, so we should make sure that the numerical majority don't have sway in a democratic process by giving another client more weight in it... so he seems to between wanting to disenfranchise them altogether which he seems to consider and just emasculating their vote by giving other people more votes. In fact one thing he says er which might make you doubt his motives somewhat is that the reason for giving people more than one vote is that they're more educated, but in general there is also a rough correlation between property ownership and education and so there's a good reason to give the property owners more than one vote, people who own a lot of property more than one vote. Now he says that someone who doesn't hold much property can prove that they're educated they should get the extra votes too, but you don't seem, you don't have to prove that you're er educated if you're rich you just get the votes anyway because that's a good. Now actually Mill did put the his erm... this proposal forward, he was a member of parliament for a few years and he was trying to get this discussed in parliament. No one seemed very interested in it. Well what this springs up is the issue, one of the issues we started with which is democracy in the tyranny of the majority is what Mill recognizes is is that a maj well... he claims to be concerned that the majority will make a decision which is against the interests of everyone, but he's equally concerned about the issue that the majority might make a decision which is against the interests just of a picked-on minority, people with unpopular views, people who hold er members of a different religion and so on.... So erm... Mill wants to protect minority from within the democratic procedure, that is he wants to set up erm a system of democracy which is as it were proof against majority corruption. One way in which he does that he thinks is by plural voting, that you give the educated more than one vote, he says we have to make sure the educated don't form their own class with their own class interests, but, but giving the educated a bigger say will lead us to make better decisions he thinks. But he also endorses a very elaborate system of proportional representation with a single-transferable vote erm this is in the chapter called voting erm it seems to me actually his system is incoherent, but he doesn't think that, I mean he argues very strongly in favour of it and various it. His idea is that you can vote if if the voter in your constit if a person you vote for in your own constituency loses, you can then switch your vote to anyone else in the country and erm you can have a list of maybe ten or twenty people and erm you will... so you'll hand in your ballot paper with all these names on, signed ballot paper because it has to be public you can hand in your signed ballot paper with all these names on and if your own candidate loses, then er your vote goes to your second person and if that person loses it goes to the third and so on. The incoherence I think is that you can't ever say that anyone has lost because you don't know what's happening in the second and third and fourth erm batch, so I can't see how this system is meant to work, Mill seems to be fairly confident that it will. So he has an interesting idea that we can set up democratic procedures to protect the minority within those procedures so that tyranny of the majority is something that afflicts only certain types of democracies, but if we have other types of democracies then we can protect the minority... and the idea for proportional representation is often claimed in this light, but actually it doesn't work as an idea, because although it allows a minority to be represented, represented is a different from being protected and so even if there's a member of parliament with the one member of parliament with your unpopular views, that doesn't mean that your unpopular views won't be made illegal say, because the fact that there's one member of parliament won't mean that [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] so his procedure doesn't work. There are other ways people have tried to protect the minority, one is by saying that the, that you can generate a certain set of rights from within the democratic procedure in a different way, that is if democracies flourish people need certain liberties, people need to express their own opinions, people need to be able to do what erm assemble where they need to and so on but more common is the view that democracy should be limited by constitutional would present the minority and this is a view that Mill doesn't really defend in representative government although it seems to be very close to his view and on liberty, that is we limit the spear that this government has control over so we can't, so in this view erm democracy is given a very limited role. It's very interesting to note that in contemporary political philosophy there is almost no room left for democratic decision making because in most theories that we're given, more or less everything is already decided at a constitutional level I mean think of theory of justice, it's the theory of justice that decides the basic nature of a constitution so the role of members of a government is simply to interpret and apply the constitution so they can make the most efficient tax policies given the basic constitution, but no individual has the authority to... challenge that constitution and change it by democratic means. To it's even worse I mean there, there doesn't even seem to be a government in the there's just a police force and an army and no one making political decisions, so it's a peculiarity of recent political philosophy there seems to be no room left for the democratic process to do much apart from administer, so the democracy is given a very minor role.... Okay so I think that erm... some of Mill's system he has given us... and accounted them a type of theory of democracy but seems to me deeply by between two ideas, one is that everyone will have a say in government and the other is they shouldn't be allowed decisive say if they are going to say the wrong thing so that on the one hand we have democratic equality of a source, on the other hand we have an independent theory of the good and a democratic process should be allowed to disrupt the good of the nation... and Mill just doesn't seem to be able to... put these two elements in erm proper coherent fashion.... So what should we conclude about our own system on the well we do have a representative democracy here, it's very unlike Mill's recommended scheme. We have no idea what people are meant are meant to be doing when they're voting, this was a problem I raised are people meant to be expressing their interest, are people meant to be voting like members of a jury? We're not told and it doesn't say on your ballot paper please be sure to remember you're voting on what you think is right rather than what is in your personal interest, you were just asked to vote. So how can we defend the system that we've got? Well, it seems that... none of the arguments that have been used so far would come close to defending the type of system that we've got. Now critics of contemporary systems say so much for the worse for contemporary system, we have to move to one of the other models, maybe suitably amended and only then will we be truly free and equal. The best I think we can say about our scheme is something that Brian Barry argues. It's in a paper I didn't put on the reading list because most of it is not relevant, it's called Is Democracy Special? and this in his collective papers. What Barry says is simply this that suppose we accept the point that authority structures are now necessary, that we couldn't have anarchy we have to have [speaker002:] [cough] [Wolff:] people in control.... Well in a modern world we've lost the faith that certain people are appointed by God to do this for us, or especially naturally fitted to do it, so how are we going to accept the rule of some people rather than others? Well he thinks the only way that modern will accept the rule of one person rather than another is if they think they're somehow there as a result of... their own action, so we'll only accept the rule of erm... our leaders if we think we put them there and we take them back again, we put them there and can recall them and this for Barry is the only merit that contemporary democratic... policy... democratic erm systems that it allows us to think of our rulers as having some legitimate claim to rule. Without democracy we wouldn't be able to say... who should rule, with democracy we can we can say these people because we voted for them and that's it, we can't say these people interests we can't say that these people act in common good although if they do very badly we'll try and recall them, all we can say is they're there we need, what we need is authority structures, we need the structures more than the people occupying the roles, someone's got to occupy the roles and this is the only way we've got of appointing them. So on that very depressing note, er I'll leave we've got a few minutes for... questions or objections if anyone wants to, we've got some head shaking. Right. [speaker002:] Er. [Wolff:] Right, I'm not sure how Anyone else? Based on? Well everyone has, everyone is entitled to vote and he also thinks that if the time is right when unmarried women were property and he thought it wouldn't be long before married women to hold property too, so he was also he wanted to reform the Married Women's Property Act. [speaker002:] What's your own view in a nutshell the way forward to democracy? [Wolff:] Don't have one, sorry. Er I was, I was hoping to find one but er er yep Right so there's a thought that somehow democracy ought to be self-justifying erm... the well I mean... quite a long way actually two types of justification of democracy, instrumental and erm Mill is defending democracy surely instrumentally and we might want to say democracy has its justification of freedom and equality. But we still need to know how, I mean maybe in a participatory democracy we can defend freedom and equality to the system not in it seems absurd to say that democracy we have now is a way of embodied freedom I mean maybe weak notion of equality, but nothing No this is the last lecture. Right, well that seems to be it. Thanks very much.

[speaker002:] Yes your is cancelled about er twenty thirty stop. yeah, outbound [speaker003:] In or outbound? In or out? [speaker002:] Well, in that case we'll forget it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I've got the inbound one over there [speaker002:] Yeah... unless they're referring to tomorrow's? there's a crossed line somewhere He's coming from Moscow tomorrow [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] he's changed his tomorrow to Moscow [speaker003:] I'll go get the er, programme, get that er, for tomorrow, Okay, such as it is.... Right, done that, check the kettle [speaker004:] two four now, the wind is ten knots, one zero kilometers, three thousand, temperature eight. one zero two zero [speaker001:] currently on the heading of one zero, one eight maintaining [speaker004:] Yes, you turn right to the two one zero, clear two thousand feet altitude, to one eight twin zero, two zero. [speaker001:] No, no just keep going Hello [speaker004:] Hello, seven miles, strong there, two four, Victor, Delta, Michael [speaker003:] Continue approach, radar, when it picks bursts cue position in get transferred radio beeps that keep jam, to land, and two obstructions, [speaker002:] Will they ring us with that tomorrow morning? [speaker003:] If you know where to look you'll see it... Victor, Delta, Michael, [speaker004:] is established Okay, one zero, two zero,, two four eight feet [speaker002:] Oh, God, I've lost half my [speaker004:] one zero, one zero [speaker002:] lost one circuit of the runway line [speaker003:] It looks all there to me. [speaker002:] Yeah, they are now, but they're on ten percent [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] Ah,... I've never heard of you [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I was actually reading off it... [speaker001:] six over... to Romeo, Delta, Mike mark final [speaker002:] Victor, Delta, Mike, getting on runway two four, the wind's two one zero degrees at twelve knots [speaker001:] Victor, Delta Mike, thanks... [speaker002:] The British National Corpus, sounds like forensic doesn't it detail? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Are these for tomorrow, Keith, are they these strips already done? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] Where's the air traffic pen gone? [speaker002:] Oh, I've got two, I'm greedy [speaker003:] particular green one, like that... G B Fan, till he was scrubbed, that was supposed an outbound, wasn't it? [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] What do I hear a please, but don't come again [speaker002:] Two one zero eight, ten knots, [speaker001:] Thank you... [speaker003:] Hello, Sharon. Tomorrow's programme. G B Fan, we've got it coming in from Stuttgart at eight twenty. Where's, where is the aeroplane at the moment, do you know?... Well that's what I felt, but then we had that outbound planned, which was cancelled [speaker002:] In a minute, if you've got a minute, er, twenty from Munich [speaker003:] Yes, so that if he's coming at twenty hundred tonight, he can't be [speaker002:] Victor, Delta, Mike, locate left at the end. Proceed to open [speaker003:] So G B Fan inbound from Munich tonight is scrubbed?... Yeah, maybe, maybe they got the, the, the oh, eight twenties, and the twenty twenties er confused there... yes, if, have you... [speaker002:] Let's just have a look [speaker003:] Yes, that's okay, it's just that originally you see, we had an outbound tonight as well mhm, yes... okay I think we can pick up the pieces from there. It seems to make a fair amount of sense. I'll just get these things to you. Okay well I won't be keeping the programme, so I'll probably give it back to you in a couple of minutes. Okay bye. Yes, eight twenty, it was eight twenty tomorrow, not tonight, so [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... Next one should be in ten minutes.... Whereabouts have you been to on your travels, to take recordings, what sort of places have you been to? [speaker001:] photography, I personally talking to people about jobs [speaker002:] Mhm [speaker001:] quite a lot of other ones, er, other people have done, people making speeches, [speaker002:] Mhm [speaker001:] tape recordings, recordings of the whole union's A G M. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Very interesting, thank you. And they just send tapes to you, you know, they don't? [speaker001:] Oh, they do, yeah. [speaker002:] No, I ju I just, I was just thinking, a lot of these things if you, if you are actually recording interviews you're gonna get a very stilted, [speaker001:] Yeah, well Yeah [speaker004:] pass the message? [speaker003:] something just approaching from the south two thousand feet one zero one niner, and now turning eastbound er, via to pick up the M twenty five clockwise. And er services. [speaker002:] used rates as well [speaker003:] Zero, zero, one niner [speaker002:] These are obviously the ones that don't fly anyway [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Hello seven three one eight, no Roger's off duty at the moment... it's Chris here... erm, he should be, hang on I'll just have to look at the watch roster and check up on precisely what his movements are, erm... just look through tomorrow and I can find the right page in the roster here, er, two thir yeah, he'll be on tower, so he'll be in first thing tomorrow from about seven, seven o'clock onwards. Okay then? Well, we, we just sort of muddle along from day to day week to week, nobody tells us anything, we just have a guess and usually the guesses are wrong. Don't know [LAUGHTER] well, I mean, yeah, the basically factory's closed. Erm, they've demolished all the north side, you know what used to be the dynamics and that's all gone, it's gonna become, you know, it's not very, that's becoming a, well, in the process of becoming a business park, but I mean, mean... well, I mean, it, it, it's all executive erm, and you know business stuff and on the surface, you know, we're still reasonably busy with, with that sort of thing, but erm, no that, they have, the only one four six we see now is just on the company shuttle just you know until they complete the close down of the factory, they shuttle them up to Woodford, er, er, and back every day. But that really won't last long much after the erm, well we don't know, I er, nobody really knows, I mean, British Aerospace has fragmented into all of these property groups and Rover and everybody's got fingers in the pie and we're not, we're sort of caught half way between short-term aims to make a quick profit from trying to get Shell in you know and that sort of thing, but I mean, we just need to talk about, nobody really knows what the long-term policy of the main British Aerospace Board is. Whether to you know sort of try and pick up the guys who are getting thrown out of Heathrow and make a long-term go of it or whether in the long term, em, they want to flog it off for gravel and you know mining it for gravel and sending it for houses and you know, that sort of thing. Erm, we get fed all sorts of information from various levels in and rumours from outside, not just the milkman, you know [speaker001:] Golf, Romeo, Alpha, Alpha, Romeo [speaker002:] Alpha Romeo [speaker001:] about er, ten minutes to land if possible [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah what time do you want to go? [speaker003:] He won't know any more either [speaker001:] Er, if we can make it one six nine O, with just er, [speaker002:] No problem, starting, temperature is plus eight, one zero, one nine [speaker001:] one zero, one nine [speaker002:] want to speak to Roger... was that control, [speaker003:] They said er, he is [speaker002:] Who's he? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] He's the chief, whatever they call it, the C A title is for [speaker001:] changing to one three two seven [speaker002:] I thought that was erm... another chap's name [speaker003:] It may be, but you know, they've got several levels of management, one's the manager of air traffic services another one's the chief executive officer [speaker001:] Hello [speaker002:] Hello, London, er, Golf, Romeo, double Alpha Romeo, on a Hendon departure, please, [speaker001:] Okay hold the line... right which was the one? [speaker002:] Golf, Romeo, double Alpha, Romeo, on a Hendon departure [speaker001:] five, four, one, one, seven six, frequency for that erm, one, one, nine, seven, seven [speaker002:] Heading five, five, four, one, one, one, one, nine, seven, seven, through loop, thank you. [speaker001:] Thank you, bye, bye [speaker003:] What's Dublin these days, is it Delta, Whisky? [speaker002:] Dublin is the I D [speaker003:] Yeah, course. [speaker002:] They're er, obviously gathering information for a big push then [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah,... There's a lot of gaps on this tape to edit [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Whoever's got to do the transcription [speaker003:] Hello,, ah, I bet it's something I've just written down, isn't it? Yeah, come on then... yes, yeah, I've just that bit, [speaker004:] from Luton, [speaker001:] What's the signal? [speaker004:] the weather [speaker003:] Right [speaker004:] to the wind is er, two three zero degrees at ten knots, visibility is greater than one zero kilometers, three thousand feet, temperature eight, D L H, one zero, one niner [speaker003:] Okay [speaker004:] Thank you, altitude two thousand feet, [speaker003:] signal [speaker002:] You can go and have a look at the radar if you want? [speaker001:] Could [speaker003:] Do you know if Maria's down there, excuse me? This plane, hello [speaker004:] radar, ten miles, most eight zero, six one [speaker003:] Continue approach [speaker004:] Roger [speaker002:] Yeah, bottom of the stairs, straight through that open sliding door, straight ahead of you, well,ju just, to your right [speaker003:] Chris, I might take the down [speaker002:] Oh, you're gonna take that [speaker003:] Oh, well not now, yes

[speaker001:] I'll wait till one or two people are here before I start. [speaker002:] Sure, do an hour anyway. [speaker001:] Yes, yeah, oh it's quite like old days, isn't it at L S E, with the police outside, and a riot on. It brings a tear to my eye. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mind you, it's not, I mean, I thought that black demonstration was pathetic. D did you see it? I mean, you know, when I was student at L S E, you know, the front of the, of the demonstration was down at the Law Courts, the back was still in, at, at er, Oxford Street, or something, you know. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] We had real demos. But there we are. What's happening now, does anybody know? They're what?... Are they... trying to occupy the... ... Well, I wonder how many more are coming? It's five past, at least it is by my watch. [speaker002:] Yes, cos a lot of people are out in [speaker001:] Are they? Right. So we'll have to carry on well, we'll carry on regardless, okay.... [speaker002:] Is there a handout from last week? [speaker001:] Yes sorry there is. Erm, yes, you're quite right, here we are. Just getting to that.... There's the summary of last week's, okay if you can pass those round.... And while I'm focusing the overhead, this is the er, this is a postcard that er, a student did this course some years ago, sent me from the U S. Freud, the barber... so how's your mother, he's asking the guy in the chair. Nearly as bad as singing at you isn't it?... Okay, now erm, today as you realize with feelings of immense relief is the last lecture of the term, so, so what I'm gonna do, is to start talking about the er, so called black books of Freud, the set texts in this, in this course and I'm gonna start talking today about the first, and in some ways, one of the most important of these, Totem and Taboo, and since it's the last lecture of term, and you probably all forget what I said over the Christmas holiday, and won't be able to recall it afterwards, through the alcoholic haze, er what I thought I'd do today, was talk about Totem and Taboo in the way in which it looked backwards rather than forwards. Totem and Taboo as we'll see is a key book, not only in terms Freud's writings on social sciences, but in Freud's development. And it, kind of faces both ways, it, it looks back to the early period of the development of Freud's thought that we've already spoken about, and its beginnings back in the eighteen nineties, and in certain other respects, it looks forward, to the kind of revolution that was going to occur after World War Two. What I've called in my book, Essential Freud, the Second Psychoanalytic er Revolution. So, it, it's in many ways a, a book that, that looks two ways, as it were, back and, and forward. And what I want to do today is to talk about Totem and Taboo rather more as it looks back, than as it looks forward, and not just to, to the past in Freud, but to the past in other respects, as you will see.... But first of all this phrase that I used, to introducing it of Serge Mo...., the black books of Freud. Moscavisi, is a leading French social psychologist, which those of you doing, em, social psychology or the social representations course, will hear about. And in his book, er, The Age of the Crowd, Moscavisi refers to what he calls the black books of Dr Freud. Now, what has he got in mind? And, and why are they black? Well, what he has in mind are those very books which are the core of our course, that is Freud's writings on social sciences, religion, society, morality, social philosophy, that, that kind of thing. That's what he means by the black books of Freud. But why are they black? Why should they be denigrated? Well, Moscavisi's argument, and I must say, I agree with him, is that they tended to be denigrated by both groups who might have taken the biggest interest in them. They'd been denigrated by the clinical psycho anal analysts who have followed after Freud, and used Freudian therapy, because they're non-therapeutic. These are er, books which... these, these are books which do not directly concern, therapeutic applications of psychoanalysis, and as a result, many psychoanalysts who have been very fervent in projecting a kind of medical image for psychoanalysis, have tended to regard them as diversions at best, and at worst as, rather er regrettable eccentricities on the part of Freud. Do you want a handout, Ben? So, for these people, the clinical psychoanalysts, the black books haven't been very interesting, or they've been actually distracting. One of them, for example, that we'll be looking next term, Freud's biography, co-written with Bullitt, on Woodrow Wilson, was called, in one of the major reviews, when it finally came out in nineteen sixty seven, the kind of thing that gets psychoanalysis a bad name. That's how one of the psychoanalytic reviewers referred to that book. So, so this group, the clinical psychoanalysts, haven't really been, been interested in this, in this kind of writing. The other group of people who you might have thought, ought to have taken them up and been interested in them, was the wider field of social science, er, writers after all, social scientists, ought to be interested in these, in these books because they're about social science. Again, there's been an astonishing neglect, not so much I, I have to point out in fairness, of Totem and Taboo, as we'll see. Totem and Taboo's been pretty notorious. But putting Totem and Taboo on one side, and as we'll see, it's not really an exception, but in general, most of these books, have been quite astonishingly ignored. I take, take a summary from there. One of the best examples of that is,... a book dating from nineteen twenty, Group Psychology and the Anal Analysis of the Psychology of the Ego. You might think that, that's a book that social scientists ought to be primarily interested in. But in fact, if you look through bibliographies and citations in the literature, you find it's hardly ever cited, and when it is cited, people seldom if ever, seemed to refer to what Freud er says in it, let alone take any notice of it.... If you look at something like the Institute for Group Psychotherapy in London, it's founded on other writings than Freud's writings on Group Psychology. That's one that they seem to ignore er, rather systematically. So social science has tended to ignore Freud's books, but of course, it hasn't been able to forget about Freud. And where Freud has been integrated with, with the social sciences, interestingly enough, what's been integrated is not the black books so much as Freud's writings on child development and other issues, apart from those in these books. To take one of the most outstanding examples mentioned by Bob Bocock in one of his books, I forget which one it is now, but in one of his books, Bob Bocock er, mentions that the doyen of mid-twentieth century sociology, Talker Parsons, who some of you perhaps may never of heard of, but er, you certainly would have done in the sixties and seventies, because he really was the major fi figure in Anglo-American social theory. Talker Parsons, says Bocock, draws heavily on Freud, quite consciously, I mean, he says he's gonna integrate Freud in his unification of social, social thought, so he's completely explicit about drawing on Freud, and yet says Bocock, if you look at the works of Freud, on which Parsons draws, they are mainly his works on child development and clinical psychology. Parsons seldom, if ever mentions the so- called black books, let alone takes any notice of what they, what they say. So even when you get a figure, a major figure, not a peripheral one, a central, major figure, in social sciences, like Talker Parsons, who really does take Freud seriously, what does he do? He treats Freudian psychology as a socialization theory. He doesn't pay very much attention to the content of these books that we're looking at in this course. So, so are the kind of reasons why Moscavisi calls them the black books. They're the side of Freud, that has tended to be ignored, even by the people you would've expected to take the greatest notice of them. If you ask in general, why social science has been in so selective in its use of Freud, and so one-sided in its interpretation, the answer seems to be, that since the nineteen twenties and up until very recently, Western social science has been primarily dominated by what I would call, cultural determinism, and by that I mean, a school of thought which believes that, to use a term borrowed from one of its founding fathers, Emile Durkheim, social facts have social causes. In other words, if you want to explain social phenomena, you got to look for the explanations in society. And cultural determinism is the idea that they way people think and act, is largely determined by their culture, their upbringing, their socialization, their home environment, peer group pressure, this kind of thing, and is not to be looked for in natural causes, in their genes, for example, or in individual psychological experience, as was the prime focus of Freud in psychoanalysis. So the result is that, where people did take notice of Freud, and here Talker Parsons is the prime example, they interpreted Freud as if he too were a cultural determinist. And in a minute, we'll see the prime example of that, or one of the prime examples of that. [speaker002:] So social scientists interpreted him as a cultural determinist? [speaker001:] Yes they did. [speaker002:] But, but Freud [speaker001:] Well, I, I agree. I mean, how could you do this? I, I'm as astonished as you are, erm, the, the way in which people like Talker Parsons did it was, they regarded these basic er, personal psychological drives as a kind of putty, that could then be moulded by social pressure. For example, Parsons explicitly says that, that the drives of the id are socially moulded in the sense that, the forms in which they express themselves are the result of socialization. I agree with you, this is an astonishing kind of re-interpretation of Freud, but it's, but it's the one that was produced. I'll give a, a further example of that later in the lecture.... Now, if with, with that in mind, you then turn and look at Totem and Taboo, which was published in nineteen thirteen, first as a series of essays, then as a single book. In other words, just on the eve of World War One. If you read Totem and Taboo, and I, by the way I do expect all of you er to read it, because it is one of the set er books, and one of the things I'm not gonna do in these lectures on the black books, is to tell you what the book says, and just kind of repeat it in the lecture. I mean this is a waste of my time, it, it should be a waste of your time, if you're gonna read the book, and we've already had both classes on Totem and Taboo. And I must say, I was impressed, I thought the, the presentations were excellent in both classes and we covered a lot of the material very well, I thought. So I'm not gonna waste everybody's time by just saying, you know, Freud said this, and Freud said that. I'm going to er, talk about them, rather than, rather than repeat them. Now, when you read Totem and Taboo, one of the things you may notice, particularly if you've read more recent anthropological social science literature, is that it seems very old fashioned. There's something rather out of date about the whole style of the book. It's not the kind of book which you would find being written today, by psychologists, or anthropologists, or social scientists in general. There's something rather dated er, about it. And... the reason for this, is that it belongs to a tradition, a fashion if you like, of writing, which went dramatically out of, out of fashion immediately after World War One. So, at the time, when it was published, most readers would have regarded it as completely up to date in its, in its style and in its presentation. So it wouldn't have struck anybody in nineteen thirteen as in any way dated. On the contrary, it would've seemed a very, very up to date, state of the art, kind of book. Unfortunately, that kind of writing went out of fashion almost instantly, and certainly in the nineteen twenties and thirties, was replaced by a completely different tradition, which has er, influenced our expectations and perhaps explains why the book seems so old fashioned. In fact, it belongs to a, a great tradition of anthropological writing, represented by people like Sir James Frazer, who was, he was the kind of Talker Parsons of British anthropology prior to World War One. James Frazer was a Cambridge anthropologist, who wrote er, a number of books, most notably, The Golden Bough, an enormous er, volume, I think it runs to, to thirteen volumes. One of the few things, erm, that I'm really proud of about myself, is that I've read all of them. Erm, mainly out of perversity, I do admit, because I must be the only social scientist of my generation who's read all of them from cover to cover. Erm, but er, it is a very long book, and er, it, it, it is a masterpiece, and if you were to read The Golden Bough, or any part of it, or any other work of Frazer's for that matter, you would immediately be reminded of Totem and Taboo, because Frazer's method is comparative. It's a great work of comparative sociology. What Frazer does is to take, in the case of The Golden Bough, rituals and myths, and aspects of folk lore, from this society and that society, all over the world, and compare them to each other. And his work is informed by a vast reading, and numerous personal contacts, with cultures throughout the world. So on one page, you'll be reading about what Africans do in Upper Volta, and on the next page, you'll be reading about what the ancient Aztecs did that is similar. And on, in the next paragraph there'll be something on the Maoris, and on the next one something on the Australian Aborigines, and so on. This is one of the things that makes the book so long. It's full of descriptive material. Page after page, after page, after page, of descriptive material, drawn from all over the world, both published accounts, which Frazer drew on, erm, with er, kind of er, encyclopedic knowledge, but also a lot of personal contacts which he had with people like missionaries, er, colonial administrators, and even er, local people who would with descriptions and er, and facts about the things he was, he was researching. The result was that Frazer was astonishingly well informed about cultures throughout the world, without ever having visited one of them. He was, er, what was to be, er, rather patronizingly called, an armchair anthropologist. He was one of these comparative anthropologists, he wasn't the kind of anthropologist that goes out and lives with er, primitive people for several years, and then comes back and writes an account of them. That kind of anthropological writing was to become very fashionable after World War One, and was to be made into something of a fet fetish, by people like Bronoslaw Melanovski, here at L S E, Margaret, er, to quote the worst case, er,an an and others. And as I said, it, it was er, it, it, it, it was, it was denigrated but it had its own strengths, and the Margaret case er, is, is one of them. As you probably know, Margaret perpetrated a huge fraud, I mean, there's no other word for what she did. She may not have consciously intended all of it, but huge fraud it was, because she purported to give a picture which in, in her own words was, er forever true, that's a direct quote, er forever true, of Samoa, which we know, er, was not at all true. In fact, Margaret 's account of Samoa was based on interviews through an interpreter, with twenty five adolescent girls, in the back room of the U S Navy er, dispensary, er, on the main island of Samoa during a time when there was considerable anti-American er, feeling. never lived with the Samoans after the first week. She tried it for a week, and then, then went to live with the Americans, and said the food was too fattening.... She writes about adolescence among Samoan boys, but we know from examining her field notes, she never inter interviewed one Samoan boy. Her knowledge of Samoa was based upon what a group of adolescent girls thr told her, through an interpreter, and what can only be called, er, chit-chat and gossip that she picked up from missionaries' wives and people like this.... The, the problem was of course, this was a culture where adolescent girls do not contradict important American ladies who are talking to them through interpreters. So when Margaret said to them, er, well you don't know anything about rape, do you? They said no, Miss, and when she said to them, you never think about rape do you, they said, no Miss, the thought never entered our head. Derek who exposed the fraud, took the trouble of consulting the police records, for Samoa, at the time when Margaret, was there, and although Margaret claimed there was no rape in Samoa, because children were brought up so nicely, in this kind of, tropical paradise that she, that she portrayed in the book, the fact is, according to the police records, there were more rapes in Samoa, while Margaret, than were occurring in New York at the time was writing, during the nineteen eighties [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and New York has one of the highest rate, sorry rape rates in the world. So, when I say fraud, I mean it.... Somebody like James Frazer wouldn't have let Margaret get away with that. I mean, James Frazer would have read her novel, cos I think that's all you can call it, Coming of Age in Samoa, because it's mainly fictional, he would've read her novelistic account, and then he would have compared it with other accounts, which had been published in German and other languages, and accounts of, of Samoans themselves, and he would have said, look there's something wrong here. There're tremendous discrepancies between what Margaret and what these other people say. Frazer would have known about that, so although he was a much despised armchair anthropologist, at least, he didn't rely on the say-so of a single anthropologist, who claimed to pay paint a picture, forever true. So although Frazer was doing a kind of anthropology that was later to be rather dis despised, it had something to be said for it. And in the German tradition of, of psychology, it's worth pointing out that Willhelm who those of you who are reading psychology I'm sure have, have heard of, er, Willhelm was a kind of er, slightly older contemporary of Freud's, and I daresay you've heard of him, as the founder of modern scientific psychology. He, he opened the world's first psychological laboratory in the University of Leipzig, some time in the eighteen eighties, I think I'm right in saying. Willhelm is projected as the founding father of modern experimental laboratory based psychology. But the fact is that spent most of his life, and most of his writings on an enormous work, even longer than the Golden Bough, er called the Welker Psychologie or Folk Psychology, and this enormous work, it's in twenty three volumes or something, er, of, of, the Welker Psychologie is just like James Frazer's writing and indeed Totem and Taboo. It's er, a work of comparative, er folk, folk lore and folk psychology. And these were the very works, The Golden Bough, Welker Psychologie which Freud's contemporaries would have been reading in English and German. So, when Freud's Totem and Taboo appeared in nineteen thirteen, it would have instantly been compared with these, and that is the genre of er, anthropological writing in which it, it would of been immediately been at home. So at the time, as I said, it would have seemed a perfectly conventional piece of work, even if to a later generation, like ours, it now seems rather old fashioned.... Now, as we saw in the, in the, when we discussed this in the class, the central theme of Totem and Taboo, is, is what you might call, to use a, a psychoanalytic jargon term, ambivalence. Ambivalence was a, a term coined in about nineteen O five, by the Swiss psychiatrist,, and it was taken up particularly by psychoanalysis, and as a psychoanalytic term, it means the co-existence of contradictory thoughts, feelings or emotions about the same thing. Typically, co-existence of feelings of love and hate. And as we saw when we discussed the book, Freud gives a number of examples of ambivalence, and the taboos to which they give rise. Taboo is a Polynesian word, and it means some kind of supernatural law or prohibition which you infringe at your supernatural peril. If you infringe a taboo something terrible will, will happen to you. But if you had to explain why you have to obey the taboo, you would probably find it very, very difficult... in the, in the sense that, taboo prohibitions are not like legal rational ones. If you ask somebody what's the explanation for a fact you may have noticed if you walked down the Strand here just from the School, if you're observant, I'm sure you've, you've all instantly noticed as you walked by, that Strand Street, which is a short street that, sorry, I'm, Savoy Street, which is a short street that leads off the Strand into the Savoy Hotel, is an exception to the rule, that in England you drive on the left, because in Stra in Savoy Street, you drive on the right. And you may say, well why is this? Is this just an aberration, if you look at the road markings, you'll see it seems to be official, cos the road is marked out for driving on the right, and the reason is that er, traffic law in this country says, that vehicles drive on the left, except in Savoy Street. And that is the one street in the, in the whole country, where legally, you are obliged to drive on the other side. And the reason is, it's for the benefit of taxis, cos, everybody knows, that London taxi drivers are above the law. If you've ever driven around London you immediately notice this. These guys do anything, you know, U turns in the middle of anywhere, they, they can do it, you can't. Well if you do it, they just shout at you. [speaker002:] It's so they can open the door behind them, the passengers getting in on that side of the road. [speaker001:] That has to be the reason. I, I knew, I, I knew that it was because the, that the taxi cabs had insisted, but now told us the reason. Alright, now we know. That, that's a rational law, okay, it's nothing to do with a taboo, there's not some strange supernatural principle which says, in Savoy Street you drive on the other side, and if you don't you'll be struck down with a fever or ill luck or something like that. It's a rational, legal principle, okay. Now that is not a taboo. A taboo is quite different. A taboo is something you can't justify or explain, or rationalize as existing for the convenience of taxi drivers. A taboo is something beyond reason and as we saw, what Freud does in the book is compare it with neurotic prohibitions which are kind of personal taboos, and in fact the sub-title of the book is some points of agreement between the mental lives of savages and neurotics. And the principal point of agreement is the agreement between the neurotic prohibition, which like the taboo, is something that the neurotic cannot bring themselves to do, fears for the consequences if they do do it, and er, feels constrained by some irrational force er, to obey, even though it isn't rational. And as we saw, Freud compares these, and explains taboos and neurotic prohibitions as a means of dealing with ambivalence. Well now, I'll come back to the whole question of ambivalence, er, next term, when I discuss, the what is really the central issue of the book apart from ambivalence, which is the incest question. I'm saving that, that for next, next term, so I won't say anything about incest now. What I want to go on to discuss in the, in the last part of the lecture is another way in which Freud's work looks, looks backwards, or seems to look backwards. And that is, that it seems to look back to the writings of Darwin. And this is the other aspect of Freud's debt to Darwin which I mentioned at the beginning but said I would hold over for later. I said, if you remember, in the opening lectures, that in many ways, Freud continues the tradition of Darwin's own writing in psychology, and I explained why earlier. But I said there was another important aspect to this I would mention later, and now we've reached that point, and I'll explain what it is. In the closing er, pages of the, of the book, Freud draws on a suggestion of Darwin's, which is that, in the beginning, human beings lived in what Freud calls primal hoard,... and the primal hoard social structure is one that Darwin had observed in many mammals. Today we'd call it a one male group, it's a social structure in which we have a single dominant male, a harem of females... and im sexually immature young. What's lacking from such groups, is mature,s sexually mature er males apart from the dominant male. There's only ever one. And the reason there's only ever one, is that dominant male will not tolerate the presence of other males and drives them out. So females are retained in these groups, but males are driven out by the dominant male, whom Freud called the primal father.... Now Freud, in trying to the explain the origins of ambivalence about incest, suggests the apparently preposterous and farfetched idea, that in the beginning, human beings lived in these kinds of primal hoards, and er, there was no incest prohibition as such. There was no taboo on incest, any constraints that did exist on hu on human beings' mating preferences were dictated by the primal fathers. He had all the women and nobody else had them. There came a day, said Freud, the sons in frustration, rose up against the primal father, murdered him, ate him, in a grisly act of cannibalism, raped the mothers and sisters, and then having gratified the positive side of, of the negative side of their ambivalence, about the primal father, their hate for him, their desire to supplant him, and so on, were left with the positive side unsatisfied. Because you see said Freud, they wanted to be like him. They wanted to emulate him, and do what he was doing, and enjoy his privileges, and they kind of admired him for what he was having and they wanted. They were ambivalent about him. And having destroyed him, it was this other side of the ambivalence that came back to haunt them as a sense of guilt and deferred obedience, and out of guilt, they instituted the incest, the incest prohibition. Now, I don't really want to talk about the details of that now, I want to come back to that next term when I talk about incest. The one thing that I do want to talk about here, however, in some detail because it's important, is how Freud thinks that this matters to an analysis of modern feelings and attitude to incest. And Freud's answer is that it matters because human beings have inherited this guilt from the primal crime. In other words, we have innate feelings of guilt, about er, parricide and murder because we've inherited them from our ancestors in the distant past. This raises the fraught topic of Freud's Lamarckism. Okay what is Lamarckism?... Well... Lamarckism is named after er, Jean Baptiste Antoine de Monet, better known to us as Lamarck, and the, the prime notion of Lamarckism, according in Darwin, let's try and get that over there a bit more... is evolution by will. This is a quote from Darwin erm, summarizing Lamarck, [reading] if an animal, for the satisfaction of its needs, makes repeated efforts to lengthen its tongue, it will acquire a considerable length. E G, anteater woodpecker. If it requires to seize anything with the same organ, its tongue will then divide and become forked []. Needless to say, Darwin thought this was, this was nonsense. The, the other aspect, of what Darwin understood by Lamarckism was progressivism. Here's Darwin saying in a letter to a friend [reading] Heaven forfend me from Lamarck nonsense of a tendency to progression [] and indeed, Darwin's view was the contrary to this, and here's another quote from Darwin, [reading] after long reflection, I cannot avoid the conviction that no innate tendency to development exists []. So this is what Darwin and everybody of his time understood by Lamarckism. Evolution by will and progressivism. The idea that organisms were constantly being perfected. The idea was, why has a giraffe got a long neck? Well, the answer is, giraffes tried to eat food on higher branches of trees, strained upwards, and as they strained they stretched their necks and they passed on their stretched necks to their, to their descendants. This was a way of perfecting the giraffe. Well, this is not Darwin's theory of course, and today, we know erm, that this is in fact total nonsense. However, when people talk about Freud's Lamarckism, they don't mean this. The problem is, the term Lamarckism has changed its meaning in the course of this century, and now Lamarckism, if you say Lamarckism to most educated people, the first thing they normally think of, is not evolution by will, or, or progressivism, but inheritance of acquired characteristics. Lamarckism assumed that as an animal developed a longer neck or bigger muscles or something like that, through practice, it could pass these on to its, to its progeny. Acquired characteristics could be, could be inherited. The musical genius of the Bach family for instance, which was so noticeable, that in that part of Germany where the Bachs lived, the word Bach which actually means brook, started to mean musician, because there were so many of them, er, that kind of inheritance of musical ability, was often explained in the past, as inheritance of acquired characteristics. The idea was if you work hard at learning music, your children will kind of be born with, with an innate erm, capacity for it. And er, of course, today we know that this is nonsensical, you cannot er, inherit acquired characteristics. The point is, this was not known, when Freud was writing Totem and Taboo. At least it wasn't known to, to very many people at that time. It certainly wasn't known to Darwin. And Darwin explicitly did believe, in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Darwin did not understand the principles of er, genetics. Erm, they had been discovered by Mendel but they remained more or less unnoticed until the beginning of this century, when they were independently rediscovered. And it wasn't till considerably later that the modern doctrine associated with er Weismann of the distinction between what Weismann called the germ line, and the, and the body was fully established. What Weismann realized was that nothing that happens to your body can be translated back into your genes as it were. When Weismann first put it forward at the beginning of the century, it was highly controversial, and most scientists did not believe it. The reason they didn't believe it is that up, up until then practically everybody believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Weismann actually carried out an experiment. He bred mice, and every generation he chopped their tails off, and then bred from the tailless mice for dozens of generations, and of course, they were still being born with tails. Erm... Isaac Azimov writes er, rather amusingly about this, he says why did, why did Weismann bother, he said Weismann was Jewish, of course, Weismann knew that since time immemorial, er, Jewish little boys have been having their foreskins chopped off, Weismann only had to look at his own children, when they were born, to see that even Jewish little boys are born with foreskins. And of course, they are. Well, it's a, it's a, it's a case I suppose of, of science revealing the obvious, but er, of, of course it's a fact today, we know why it's a fact. Today we know that, that er genes, er give rise to the organism, the experience of the organism cannot be translated back into genes. The... one fact in particular shows that's totally impossible. If you're female, although not, not if you're male, all your genes were copied before you're born. In the case of er, female mammals, their D N A is copied while they're still an embryo. So if you're a woman, all the genes you hand on to your children were copied before you yourself were born, in the precursors of your egg cells. So nothing that happens to you in the course of your life can possibly change your genes, because they've already been copied. Admittedly men produce er, erm, sex cells all the time, but again, there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that any experience a man has can be copied into his genes as it were. So although we know this today, very few people knew it in nineteen thirteen, and er, nobody knew it before the turn of the century. So when people talk about Freud's Lamarckism, they're not talking about what Darwin and Freud understood as Lamarckism, evolution by will, with progressive improvement, what they're talking about is what everybody believed to be true, the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For example, Darwin er, remarks, and here I quote, [reading] even in the first edition of the Origin of Species, I distinctly stated that great weight must be attributed to the inherited effects of use and disuse, with respect both to the body and the mind []. In the Descent of Man, published in eighteen seventy one, he says [reading] some intelligent actions, as when birds on oceanic islands first learn to avoid man, after being performed during many generations, become converted into instincts and are inherited. The vocal or organs [], says Darwin, [reading] would have been strengthened and perfected through the principle of the inherited effects of use []. Again some instincts have been developed through long continued and inherited habits. Other highly complex ones have been developed by the preservation of various pre-existing instincts. That is natural selection. Even where Darwin does mention natural selection, he also mentions inheritance of acquired characteristics. Erm, paralleling it. Indeed, he goes on to say, that some physical changes produced in the nerve cells, or nerves which are habitually used, can hardly be doubted. For otherwise, it is impossible to understand how the tendency to certain acquired movements is inherited. It was necessary to show that at least some of them might have been first acquired through the will, in order to satisfy a desire, or to relieve a disagreeable sensation. In other words, when he was talking about psychology, and these are quotes from Darwin's Expression of the Emotions, Darwin not only refers to acquired characteristics, which he believes in, but he even refers to evolution by will. And er, concludes from the observation of his own children [reading] I suspect that the vague and very real fears of children, which are quite independent of experience, are inherited effects of real dangers, and abject superstitions during ancient times []. So there's no doubt, that Darwin both invoked the inheritance of acquired characteristics, and was even prepared to talk about erm, Lamarck nonsense, not to do with progressivism admittedly, but to do with evolution by will. Now you might say, er, that, that, that's very paradoxical, why should Darwin have been prepared to consider Lamarckism, even evolution by will Lamarckism in psychology, when he, when he wouldn't accept it, for instance, in talking about the, the lengthening of the necks of giraffes. Well, I think the answer to that is... it didn't seem so farfetched. Look, look at it this way. If you look at yourself in the mirror, no amount of willing can remove er, fat around your waist. You know, no matter how often you say it, every day and in every way I'm getting thinner and thinner. It won't work. You can will as much as you like, will does not make fat go away, because there's no direct link between a will and, and, and fat obviously. You can't will your fat away, or your arms longer, or, or, or yourself sh a different shape, it, it just won't work. So, so that's clearly ridiculous. However, there is a sense in which will can make fat go away. If you stand in front of a mirror and look at yourself and say, okay I'm just too fat, I'm going on a diet, and you have sufficient willpower to stick to your diet, you will lose weight, so when you're talking about behaviour, it's not so stupid to think that will is associated with the final outcome, because we know that people can will things which have, which have affects on their emotions and their, and their behaviour and their state of mind. And that I think, is why Darwin was prepared to countenance Lamarckism in psychology whereas he never was when he was talking about physical adaptations. You can't will your fat away just by thinking about it, but you damn well can go on a diet. And as we all know, the extent to which you succeed in your diet, is a question of willpower. So I think that when Darwin was writing about psychology, he became a Lamarckian, in just about every sense of the word, because will is related to things that people do and think. Now, if you then go back to Freud, what you can immediately see, is that things are not as simple as we, as we may have thought. Freud's... ideas are often rejected as being Lamarckian, and therefore wrong, and Darwin is, is often opposed to this, as being right. An example of this is found in, in a recent book by Richard Dawkins, where, and here I quote Dawkins, Dawkins says [reading] Lamarckians are traditionally fond of calluses [], that is you know, erm, hardened skin, thickened skin, like on the sole of your feet, and he contrasts these Lamarckians who like callouses, with the Darwinian, who he says has a ready answer, in terms of natural selection. The, the opposition here is between the Lamarckians who are wrong, and think you can inherit er, an acquired callous from your ancestors, and the Darwinian who is right, who believes that callouses are related to natural selection. Okay er, according to Darwin, and here I quote, [reading] in infants long before birth [], says Darwin, [reading] the skins on the soles of the feet is thicker than on any other part of the body, and it can hardly be doubted that this is due to the inherited effects of pressure during a long series of generations []. In other words, Darwin here was being a Lamarckian. The problem is that with the benefit of hindsight, we kind of excused and purged Darwin's Lamarckism. And we've come to understand Darwinism, as opposed to Lamarckism, and ruling it out. But the truth is, that in his own day, Darwin was something of, of a Lamarckian. He was definitely a Lamarckian in the sense that he believed in inherited, in the inheritance of acquired characteristics, and as we've seen, in writing about psychology, he even conceded something of, of Lamarck's idea about evolution by will. So the idea that historically there was Lamarck and there was Darwin, and they were two totally mutually exclusive schools of thought is simply untrue. The truth is, that Darwin was something of, of a Lamarckian in his own lifetime. Modern Darwinists of course have er, completely rejected Lamarckism. Richard Dawkins writes very well about this, I mean, he makes complete, he shows that Lamarckism is total nonsense, er, which of course it is. But this is with the benefit of hindsight. It's all very well for Richard Dawkins to be wise after the event, er, Freud, writing in nineteen thirteen, had no such benefit. So it seems to me that the, the problem is that, that Freud's explanation of how human beings acquired an innate, evolved sense of guilt, about murdering their relatives and committing incest, tends to be rejected as Lamarckism. This is the example that I wanted to quote in erm, in er, answer to er, the question you asked me earlier. I forget what it was now, but anyway, now I know what the [LAUGHTER] answer was going to be []. The answer was going to be that er, just as we look back on Darwin and don't notice his Lamarckism, in, in a sense, Darwin wasn't as Darwinian as we might now think, so we've probably got a picture of Freud which is, er, more Freudian as it were, than Freud really was. Freudian in the modern world, has come to mean a belief, predominantly, that human behaviour is influenced by early experience. That's what most people understand Freudian psychology to be. This is what Talker Parsons interpreted it to be in building Freud into his sociological system as a theory of socialization. Most people think of Freudianism, that, that way. That Freudianism is all about the, how the environment, the home environment, early experiences shape human psychology. Now the fact is, if you read Totem and Taboo, whatever you think, and how ever preposterous the idea may seem, what Freud actually says at the end of that book is not that, what Freud says is, there is an in innate, inborn sense of guilt about murdering near relatives like fathers and committing incest. This is an, a product of evolution, admittedly Freud uses a Lamarckian scenario to explain how it got there, but the fact is that Freud insisted on it. It seems to me that, what, what's tended to happen throughout the greater part of this century, is people have read this book, they've said oh look, this is Freud's Lamarckism, we know this is all wrong, so let's forget all that because it's not essential to Freud. It is not essential to Freud, to believe that people have an innate sense of guilt about murdering their near kin, or, or committing incest. So, we'll forget all that, and we'll just assume that what Freud really meant, was that people have sense of guilt because they've been socialized to have it. And indeed, this has become the dominant twentieth century dogma about incest avoidance. Freud's theory was taken up by the French structuralist, Claude who developed it into a cultural determinist theory, which said that er, animals commit incest, human beings don't. Human beings don't do it, because of rules which, which are the result of socialization. This theory is factually wrong, because animals do not commit incest. For example, if given a choice, between mating with a near relative, and mating with a non-relative, a mouse will choose the non-relative. And throughout most of the animal, and indeed the plant world, incest is regularly and systematically avoided. So, to say as people like says that, incest is part of, is natural as it were, and incest avoid avoidance is cultural is, is really wrong. The rule may be cultural, but the behaviour certainly isn't. Furthermore, to imagine that he's repeating what Freud said, and claiming that Freud really believed that our sense of guilt about incest and murdering relatives was the result of, of socialization is again simply not true. What Freud actually says in Totem and Taboo is the opposite of that, what he actually says is that these feelings are innate, and they are part of an evolutionary heritage. Now, I admit that it can't be, it can't have come about in the way that Freud says. That, that, that's definitely true. Freud's Lamarckian scenario makes no more sense than any other, than any other kind of Lamarckian scenario does. The point I'm making however, is that a, a fairer way to judge this book, might be to say, not well let, let's reject everything in it that's Lamarckian, cos it doesn't fit with our modern prejudices, a fairer way, might be to read it the way we read Darwin's works, where there is also considerable Lamarckenis Lamarckism, and say well, this is er, this is an understandable error, given the poor state of knowledge that people had about genetics at the time, and then try and make sense of it. People don't reject Darwin's book on the emotions just because it's, it's rather heavily tainted with Lamarckism. And it seems to me, one shouldn't reject er, Totem and Taboo er for the same reason. Well, at that point we've got to three o'clock and the end of the term, erm... I'll take up Totem and Taboo, and its more forward lis looking aspects in the first lecture of er, next term, and I wish you all a happy Christmas, and new year, and hope you have a good, a good vacation and look forward to seeing you here again, the first Thursday of next term. Thanks.

[Chris:] for the benefit of these two, there's only a couple of sentences [Andrea:] Yes. in trying to answer these questions and psychological analyses and the whole appropriate to the age of the and I quote we must not forget that but is also a law giver and educator Egyptian Pharaoh undeniably Egyptian in origin. In the Bible cannot provide and abandoned him. He was rescued by an Egyptian princess. In the normal legend they represent what is known as a family romance. This the special, almost sacred being. development continued Egyptian Pharaohs and as an adult true parents.. However, and come to the conclusion that by a name Egyptian Children of Israel. Compared to what really happened that they were liberated. There and not from below. To maintain that Moses was an Egyptian they never. In short Moses Moses revealed to that like the Egyptians each generation of Jews that gave them their character in general which is that today [Chris:] Well done Andrea, excellent. A difficult book in some ways, did you find it difficult? [Andrea:] Yeah, I [Chris:] Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Well I thought you gave a very clear and er convincing account of it despite that so congratulations, well done, that was excellent. Erm, well what does everyone else think? Moses and Monarchism is not one of those books of Freud as I expect you to read for this course, I mean I expect you to read [cough] things like Civilization's Discontents and so on because they're, they're kind of central and they're not very large books, they're clearly er focused on our subject but erm it would be I think a little bit unreasonable for me to expect you to read this one, although, er I'd quite like you to I mean some ways erm... it's a fascinating book, erm my guess is if it, if you don't hate it, you'd probably quite like it. There's a number of students who said they started to read it and couldn't put it down. Bit like a detective story in some ways. But erm, what er, what are you to make of it? [Mike:] Erm, I'd like to say [Chris:] Mm. Mm. Well could you, could you expand on that, cos you're not saying that they, it's actually passed from people's D N A? [Mike:] No, I'm not saying that [Chris:] No so explain how it works Mike. [Mike:] Er, well, it seemed as though it and er... ideology of change rather than industrial relations, erm revolution [Chris:] And so the relevance of that to what Andrea was telling us about is what? [Mike:] Erm, [Chris:] Yes. Yes. Well that's it, that, that's a very good starting point because one point that Freud er makes in the book and Andrea er alluded to... but is, is very important in fact he calls it, there's a little sub-section of the book called the Analogy and this is the erm analogy that Freud is gonna use for his study of Moseism the analogy he gives, er can you remember it Andrea? Recall exactly what it is? Well let, let, let, let me tell you, I don't want to put you on the spot, the, the, the analogy is of er the typical pattern of development of a neurosis, which Freud says is a trauma that happens often in infancy. This is then forgotten or repressed when it seems to have vanished altogether and there's a third period, what Freud calls the return of the repressed when the initial trauma comes back in the form of symptoms and er ideally in the form of an analysis that finally brings it to the surface of consciousness and dissolves it, and this is a typical pattern. Er, it's certainly what happened to me I must admit in fact it's certainly been the pattern of my life and er... I'm not surprised what thought, Freud thought was a kind of typical er typical pattern. Now what Mike is talking about is the kind of historical parallel to this and Freud mentions a number of examples. Mike has given us one which is I think an excellent one. The examples that Freud talks about are for example er, the Trojan War in early Greek history. We know that the Trojan War, you know erm, what's described in the Iliad and the Odyssey to the kiddies and er all these Greek and Greek heroes, we know that war actually happened, but it happened an awful long time before these poems were written and er Freud's view is that what happens in a culture is there's some initial traumatic event like the French Revolution or Trojan War, there's a period of latency during which it seems to be forgotten about and nothing very much happens anyway, and then at a later stage it comes back again, there's a return of a repressed and er... Freud erm... Freud quotes one or two other examples, er of the same kind of thing and Mike's example is a very good one albeit er perhaps it's good because it's so recent, so the point you're making Mike is that are you saying that Freud's analogy is, is credible where French history and even industrial relations is concerned that there was a trauma, the Revolution of seventeen eighty nine, there were latency periods and then this kept coming back from the repressed time and time again? Yeah. Yeah. Right. [Mike:] Apparently they even put the barricade in the same place [Chris:] Oh did they? Right. [speaker004:] Is er, is Freud saying, is he just looking at this and saying I, I see a pattern here? [Chris:] Yes [speaker004:] Or is he saying, you know is he saying this is how I found religions to thrive, you know or [Chris:] He's certainly saying I find a pattern here because he's using it, as his pattern to understand and I only just said at the beginning what the, makes the Jews Jewish, what gave them their national character and their, their ethnic identity. He's certainly saying there's a pattern there er what was the second? [speaker004:] Well, is, is he saying that these are the, these are the things that our religion needs in order to, to be a strong religion, I mean it, she said you know something that I found interesting was what Maska Reece has said about erm the ability of the minority to, to sort of overcome repression [Chris:] Yes [speaker004:] erm, I read a book this summer er by Kurt Vonnegut called Cat's Cradle and in the book erm there's this, there's this er country and the country has outlawed this certain religion [Chris:] Mm. [speaker004:] erm called Bocodonism and it turns out, find out later in the book that the reason they outlawed this is because of the guy Bocodon who was, who originated the religion had made a deal with the head of the state of the country that he would outlaw it, so that's how the religion thrived, because it was outlawed [Chris:] Yes, I see yeah [speaker004:] see and he started up that way and, and the religion was the most popular thing in the country, but all the people were outlaws. [Chris:] I see. [speaker004:] And er that's how the religion thrived [Chris:] Right [speaker004:] because they were all repressed but they were fighting against this repression and it was coming out, you know. [Chris:] Yes. [speaker004:] Erm and er I was wondering if Freud did that or if that's what Freud was saying, that, that, that religion by nature must be repressed or that a minority as the nature of minority is, is er it works harder when it's repressed or it can become stronger. [Chris:] No he's not saying that, he's not going that far because he's not talking about all religions. We saw earlier didn't we when we talked about, about future who did that? Sorry, you did that, right, well think back to what you said about future what Freud said the future. Right now there are plenty of religions that don't show this er pattern of trauma, repression and latency of return of the repressed, they, they just kind of go on from er from time immemorial, erm and there are plenty of examples of that. I think Freud would say though however that these are more like the th the was talking about religion, now clearly if something is a outlawing it isn't gonna make much difference to it, or if anything it's, it's just gonna make it er, er make it more difficult, but there are certain types of religion and Judaism is one of them where th this very pattern you're talking about did occur and here Freud is er probably standing on, on firm ground, for reasons which I'll explain in my lectures I don't wanna take up too much time, but I have done a bit of research on this myself and as you will see, erm there's, there are good reasons for thinking that Freud was certainly right about some of those and we certainly know that a monotheistic and, and an absolutely rigidly monotheistic religion appeared in Ancient Egypt as erm Andrea said, just before erm the er reign of this heretic er heretic, heretic pharaoh one of whose er... near descendants, I forget how he was related now, erm was originally called Tutamkhatan and then was forced to change his name to Tutankhamen and he was dug up by Howard Carter in nineteen twenty two or something er and er the Tutankhamen is called Tutankhamen and not Tutamkhatan is that there was a religious. [cough] The [cough] Akhenaten is interesting because he was the first Ayatollah of history as far as we know. He, he, he started the [speaker004:] [cough] [Chris:] of religious intolerance that still lives on today and causes Salman Rushdie to live in fear of his life. Erm, the, the idea [speaker004:] [cough] [Chris:] God Akhenaten was his prophet and in fact claimed to be the son of God his son and er all other religions were persecuted and er, so what in Ancient Egypt was that the traditional polytheism which was rampant was persecuted by there was only one god and as Andrea says, even proscribe the word gods in, in the plural, you know the, you know the er feminist thought police would try and rule out certain words you're not allowed to use like chairman which has become chairperson or something like that [speaker004:] [cough] [Chris:] well Akhenaten took it even further and it was an offence punishable by death to even say the word gods... and if you visit Ancient Egypt and walk around the ruins, you will occasionally know they were fond of putting these hieroglyphic erm er inscriptions over everything. And here and there you will see hieroglyphs have been erased, if somebody's got a chisel and there's a, just a raise a whole block of hieroglyphs, er just there and then... and almost always that is Akhenaten's workmen did it and the hieroglyphs they were erasing was the plural er gods. You could use the word god but not the word they had to be suppressed. So Akhenaten founded this intolerant monotheistic er religion as with kind of Ayatollah and er suppressed the th the, the traditional polytheistic. We, we now know this is a matter of historical fact there was a counter-revolution. Akhenaten either died or was murdered, we're not, we don't know, we don't know how er he was a very peculiar man as I'll explain in the lectures er physically, very strange probably as a result of inbreeding and erm the old religion re-established itself there was never a return to monotheistic sun worship, but er all its hypothesis is that, that since we know the exodus occurred round about this time and since we know that Judaism too is a religion of a single-minded monotheist you know I'm the law by God I shall have no other gods before me, it says in the Bible full stop. Erm Freud's hypothesis is that this religion left Egypt because of the persecution, Moses was one of Akhenaten's followers who went out into the desert, erm here as I'll explain in the lectures er some of my own research opens up a new angle on this that Freud didn't know about and why they went out into the desert, why they picked up these er Hebrew erm er immigrants who were living on the fringes of the Egyptian Empire. I'll explain that in the lecture. But anyway the idea is that er the religion was, was suppressed in Ancient Egypt and because it was suppressed there, the people migrators went to the Promised Land, when they found the Promised Land there they stopped and founded a new, a new religious state, which of course is still with us. I mean now we're still, you know we're still er... er if Freud did write about this, we're still living with, with the consequences of this. In the, in the current Middle East... erm... so this pattern certainly applies to Judaism, not to all religions, he's not saying that all religions have to undergo persecution in order to as it were flourish, but some religions do and perhaps the characteristic Judaism or at least this kind of monotheism is these kind of religions tend to be intolerant and single-mindedly, tend to say that we know the truth, everybody else is wrong and consequently they tend to persecute others and get persecuted and this leads to these periods of suppression, but there's a tendency for this kind of return of repress just as Mike was saying, his very brilliant analogy he suggested the French Revolution when the students put the barricade up in the same place or so the erm Freud's idea is that the things that happened in that first traumatic period back in Ancient Egypt and for example erm he said this is why the modern erm Jews insist on circumcision because the Ancient Egyptians did and this is, this is correct. We know that the Ancient Egyptians er did insist on circumcision er they were racially very erm... erm... er very prejudiced the Ancient Egyptians cos they were living at the peak of cultural time and regarded all other races as inferior to them and one of the main er stigmas in inferiority was erm not being circumcised and Ancient Egyptians regarded people who weren't circumcised as filthy... and erm they er they had this tremendous er racial pride in themselves as the circumcised people, and this of course has passed on into Judaism and even to Islamic faith. Islam er pursues this er strange habit of mutilating the genitals of little boys. I don't think they can get away with it with little girls but they get away with it with little boys. Well it is genital mutilation isn't it? Would, would, would... would, but, I mean I'm quite in favour of people having their genitals mutilated as adults, once they're over eighteen, they go to hospital and sign a consent form and have it done as long as they pay for it themselves, but to do it to newborn children strikes me as outrageous. I this is just the voice of reason. [LAUGHTER] You can draw your own conclusions about me. Er, Mike? Do you, do you think there's a valid parallel here then with say Judaism? A valid parallel w w would you say using your, substituting your analogy with the French Revolution? [Mike:] Erm... well [Chris:] I mean how does it, how does it work psychologically? If, if, if you're right about this could you explain the psychological mechanism that makes these kinds of returns of the repressed happen, I mean why did the Fre why did the French students feel they had to recreate the revolution? [Mike:] It was symbolic [Chris:] Why should they want to be heard in a traditional way, you'd think students having a revolution will want everything make a kind of clean... clean break wouldn't they? I mean why do people have to kind of, if, if, if we accept for a minute that there's something in this analogy, this model that Freud is talking about, why do people have this compulsive need to repeat like this, why do they have to repeat history? Mm, but Mike that it wasn't new, how do you explain that Kirsty? [Kirsty:] Well Well, I, I can't tell you, but I'm sure that er [Chris:] Mm, Right. [Mary-jane:] Rather than it actually [Chris:] Yes. That, that's a sensible kind of conclusion to draw and perhaps this would meet Kirsty's point as well, because the... what you might be tempted to say is look erm, in our cultures we have, we have absorbed from our cultures ways of seeing the world, bits about history and things restructure our thoughts and even when we try and do something new, I'd say let's have a revolution everybody, put up your barricades, you know, actually we had some great fun in the sixties with that erm the, when this happens there's a tendency to nevertheless do it in the traditional way, in other words although obviously the sixty eight revolution was about a completely different issue than the seventeen ninety eight revolution, it was very much later in history. Nevertheless the form of it was the same, there was a, would you buy that one Kirsty that there was a [Kirsty:] Yes. [Chris:] a kind of cultural tradition in the [Kirsty:] Yes, yes I mean unconsciously they will happen [Chris:] Yes. [Kirsty:] erm, but are shown that [Chris:] Yes, yes. Yes, so would you accept that Mary-Jane, that, that people may consciously er think for example oh no we're, we're, we're, we're students we're having a revolution and this is new but unconsciously they might be following some deep historical precedent? Yes. [Mary-jane:] Aware that [speaker004:] I'm sure they were aware [Chris:] Well [John:] another revolution I mean that the fight that none, none of these things have really come to a full success, yeah, so nobody looks at them and says well we need no more revolutions because they'll all work. So everyone thinks that being the is being one that's really gonna change the world, yeah and I think that the pattern he's talking about it's just resurfacing and resurfacing and resurfacing. [Chris:] I mean to take another example er and this illustrates Mary-Jane's point about it, it can be conscious,is isn't there a tendency wouldn't you say John for Clinton to see himself as Kennedy returned? Yeah. [John:] Yeah I think that what Clinton did was to play on that to get elected and you know he wanted people to see him as that, but [Chris:] Yeah [John:] I think that now he's in office and this is why I've started to dislike him a little more since he's been you know inaugurated even. I think he thinks he's better, I really do [Chris:] Yeah [John:] I think he thinks [Chris:] Yeah [John:] okay now I'm here and I am not only gonna be I mean now people [Chris:] Yeah [John:] I am Kennedy [Chris:] Much better than Kennedy. Right, he probably does think that, but isn't it interesting er doesn't this illustrate the point we've been making that he felt he needed to have a play that, strung that historical cord as it were. [John:] Mm. I, I definitely, I definitely think that's a pattern, you know leading up I, I think this is a continuing thing but that, that in the end these people always think that they're gonna take one step further. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And that's what keeps, that's what keeps it going. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] So perhaps in some ways er we would deduce from this that the... the motive of the revolutionaries in sixty eight was in perhaps to some extent to complete what had been started in seventeen eighty nine but not finished... and somebody would, Clinton presumably he would say I'm gonna complete the programme that John F Kennedy started, but was unable to finish because the tragic way in which his career was ended. Erm, so the, that... that seems to be getting towards something that Freud is saying, another aspe aspect of this which is the compulsive aspect, the feeling that you gotta keep doing it. Presumably one reason why people doing something is they didn't do it enough the first time, or they didn't do it properly, or they didn't do it successfully and therefore they've gotta keep doing it. Is, is that possible? [speaker004:] this father figure [Chris:] Mm. [speaker004:] I mean it's like the father is condoning what they're doing. [Chris:] Yes, and, and sometimes of course this is, this, this becomes a conscious rationalization for what people are doing aren't they? I mean presumably erm when erm... er you know when er when people fight religious crusades, very often they see themselves as er justified by a religious precedence of the past by the great prophets of the past or, or, or great leaders who did similar things and er they, they consciously justify what they're doing don't they by saying well you know we're er we're, we're doing, fighting this crusade or, or carrying out this policy er and these are the historical precedences. And they quote those precedences as a justification for what they're doing and of course that then, then the whole kind of compulsive repetition thing becomes very very conscious because now people are saying you know, we're doing this er because of historical precedence, because of erm and tradition. So I think that that's, that that's absolutely true. Of course to go back to something I think Kirsty or somebody said, erm this could also happen un unconsciously couldn't it? I mean I was interested a a a another very interesting point you made Mike at the beginning, you said that is there, had there been studies that show the standards of French industrial relations did you say that, that this has kind of become a pattern for industrial relations conflict in France. [Mike:] No, I made [Chris:] Yeah, right. [Mike:] say that this has everybody out [Chris:] Because that implies that this kind of thing then spreads to other areas of life, I mean it, after all the revolution of seventeen ninety eight didn't have anything to do with erm industrial relations as such, I mean it was er it was really about the monarchy, the state and er people starving and all that stuff, but the... this introduces the interesting idea that once you've got a kind of pattern in the culture to something, it can then reappear in other areas. Erm, it, what it struck me as is a parallel with Freud's idea of transference, you know that once something happens in the, in the traumatic period in a, in a childhood, there's then a tendency to transference to occur later in life, we recreate later in relationships to er the model of the early one and er it struck me that what you said about French industrial relations sounded a bit like transference in erm in the psychoanalysis the idea that i i it spills out as it were from the initial which might have been saved er within the family to other relationships i in later life that people have with their superiors at work or something... I mean you can see this actually sometimes you know that people have relationships with their superiors which are clearly erm based on erm their relationships with their parents and they see the,th their boss as a parental figure and the employee sees themselves as er as, as, as a kind of erm child and it shows itself sometimes in quite er quite unmistakable ways. Kirsty? Yeah yes, yes, yes. [Kirsty:] I told my husband that he had this problem. [Chris:] Oh really? [Kirsty:] Yes, absolutely [Chris:] Yeah [Kirsty:] never is good enough and he expects too much [Chris:] Yes, it, it's not uncommon. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Kirsty:] but can I ask something else erm [Chris:] Yes [Kirsty:] obviously this erm theory of Freud's er is not acceptable Jews. I would like to find out how a Jewish [Chris:] Yes, I mean they haven't been. Once in one of these classes one year I had a Jewish student got up and got very upset during such a class as this and stomped out and then slammed the door er which I was rather sorry about because erm I think he was being a little bit erm too sensitive because the person who was giving the paper said anything anyway erm, but warrant that, but he was just offended of the idea that anybody could suggest that Moses wasn't Jewish, and of course [Kirsty:] Well he was a young [Chris:] Oh they did, yes. This another one of the black books, along with Woodrow Wilson. This was one of the er... this th this is one of the black books and one of the problems with this has been I think that a lot of psychoanalysts er have been Jewish of course and I think they regard as kind of heresy or some kind of disloyalty to suggest that Moses erm wasn't Jewish. [John:] I, I don't understand how that though. I mean, you know,ho how does that relate to his pattern that he's talking about? [Chris:] Well it, it, it, it doesn't relate to a pattern erm to be an analogy. What it relates to is the specific historical reconstruction it. You see, you could say that this of Freud's operates on two levels. On one level there's this analogy, this pattern about history that we've been talking about... but er... is Freud's attempt to explain Jewish er culture in terms of a, of a general pattern of history, of course there are many other examples and Mike has suggested a brilliant one here. On another level, on a completely different level the book is about Freud's attempt in my erm in the second edition of I used the analogy of a detective story like Sherlock Holmes or something, or something er i i it, it's an attempt by Freud to reconstruct specific historical events that may or may not have happened, using a kind of detective's method because Freud picks up tiny little clues like Moses' name, the fact that he doesn't appear to be able to speak the language in the Bible, he always speaks through an interpreter, and in the Bible this, this is explained away by saying. Freud's he just couldn't speak Hebrew, he could only speak in Egyptian and so on and so on. So it's an attempt on, on, on the second level to minutely reconstructing historical, the lost, the truest but what really happened and in that on that level, it's important for Freud to establish that Moses was not Jewish but Egyptian, because this gives him the link with Egyptian monarchism and the events of the exodus and explains it as well. It also explains erm his view why the Jews then murdered Moses rebelled against them, he wasn't one of them anyway. He imposed this religion on them which they didn't want and Freud thinks this explains a lot of things like the story of the golden carving, how Moses comes down [speaker004:] [cough] [Chris:] down from the mountain and er and so on. So that level it, it's really it's the detail level, it's not a part of a fundamental pattern. Moses, Moses being a different nationality isn't a part of the it's a, it's a historical detail. [John:] But it still seems like I mean in the, in the story, he was raised as a, as an Egyptian [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] and, and so he [Chris:] [cough] [John:] as an Egyptian [Chris:] Right [John:] you know, so the rebellion against him could just as easily have been because he was raised as an Egyptian or that, that the, you know the between monarchism from the past could also have been. I'm not arguing [Chris:] No, no [John:] but I don't see the real relevance and I think one of the reasons that erm I mean I, I hear it and I know that Freud was very critical of religion and I, I, I think for some very good reasons, [Chris:] Mm [John:] erm but I also think, I also find him to be exceedingly critical of the figures that he looks at just like he was very critical of Woodrow Wilson. [Chris:] Yes. [John:] Because he, he almost has this personal sort of he sort of a personal vendetta against them in some ways [Chris:] Mm. [John:] you know and, and not only goes without the psychoanalyse, at least this is the sense I get not only about psychoanalyse, but also to sort of knocked out and, and er maybe that's, maybe that's trying to do and that was the point I also haven't read the book so I don't know. [Chris:] No. Well I don't, yes I don't think in the book erm I mean did you get that impression Andrea? Get some kind of personal animosity against Moses? [Andrea:] No, it's more sort of [Chris:] Yes. [Andrea:] how it really occurred [Chris:] Yes, I, yes I think Andrea's put her finger on it. The impression you get in the book is not that Freud had erm some animosity against Moses the way he had against Woodrow Wilson, he was quite open about it in the Woodrow Wilson book, but that Freud is an intelligent erm... believer in science, who nevertheless takes religion very seriously because of its psychological truth. Freud, Freud's, you know Freud said that everything that religion says is true, but it's psychologically true it's not factually true, it's not you know true at the reality true psychological. So he took religion terribly seriously, but he believed in science and he looked at the Bible and said well what does this really mean? What do these myths about Moses who is the key figure in Judaism, what do these myths really tell us? And so what he's trying to do is to as Andrea says erm uncover the truth, get to the, get to what really happened as it were, under the layers of myth and distortion could have been introduced in the Bible story, and as I said if you read the book erm and it is quite fascinating in many ways, it is a bit like a detective story because what Freud does is he tries to get to the truth by analyzing the, the actual texts and the texts contains discrepancies and anybody who's ever tried to erm edit a book, learns this to their cost actually, but er you find no matter how carefully you change things, there's usually things you miss, little discrepancies that give away how it was the first time and er Freud's view is this, this has happened very much to the Bible, it's been so heavily edited and re-written and later the... the various editings show and if you read it very critically, you can begin to see perhaps the underlying pattern er coming through and erm just as you can tell for instance by reading Genesis, that it's a of two accounts because there are two stories, the first story is Chapter One of Genesis, then in Chapter Three or something there's a second story repeats it with variations. So from that biblical scores have concluded, the book that we know as Genesis was originally two accounts that were pushed together but not very expert actually, because you can still see the join,an and Freud's view about the Moses there are numerous discrepancies and numerous joins and if you take it all apart and say what is it, what does it make up, his conclusion is that erm Moses was, was not Egyptian, sorry Moses was not er erm no not, not a Hebrew but Egyptian. Erm I would have thought this was welcome news in the modern world actually when you know all these people in the Middle East have got to live together. I would have thought this was rather an enlightening view to take, but Semites erm, but there we are. A a as you and various other people likely said erm a lot of people regarded it as a kind of act of erm racial er disloyalty I'm not bothered about what race I am, I'm just bothered about the truth, and the truth is that I think erm Moses was not Jewish... well who's to know, who's to know erm... as I said it's a fascinating book and if, if you like that kind of detective story approach to history, you, you might, you might enjoy reading it, erm... there are,i it raises a lot of other issues, many of which I'll talk about in the, in the lectures, so I, I won't waste time say repeating it all here. Who er who haven't we heard from. Emma, you've been sitting there very quietly and judiciously. Have you got any comments to make about this? [Emma:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Yeah, that's right But you see what Freud, what Freud fastens on there and is something that only a psychoanalyst could do, is, is that there's a discrepancy in the story. Well what's the discrepancy? [Emma:] ... discrepancy [Chris:] The The prelude to this was set by another psychoanalyst called Otto Rank one of Freud's er early followers who had published a book called the Myth of the Birth of the Hero and in this book what Rank did was to trawl through world folklore and literature, from myths of heroes, and of course there are a lot of those books, and dozens and dozens of them and what he does in the book is he distils all these dozens and dozens of myths and he finds that there's a common pattern emerges and it's, it's pretty stereotypical actually and the common pattern is the hero is born of royal or divine parents, the hero for some reason or other that loses his parents or is cast out by them or is er exposed in some way, erm... the hero is often threatened by some outside force and then rescued by er humble people. The humble people bring up the hero as their own child, eventually the hero realizes through a dream, through a prophecy, a visitation or something that he is not the child of his humble parents, but the... find out who his real parents were, and then returns and arduous struggles and eventually gains his rightful place. There are many many examples attached to Jesus. Okay, Jesus is the Son of God, poor old Joseph is just a kind of surrogate father erm, you know like a test-tube baby father actually test tube er... is er is like you know er a complete surrogate father er for God erm they're threatened by Herod so they have to flee to Egypt... and er then they come back and eventually Jesus realizes who he is and after a long struggle with good and evil, temptation at the desert, crucifixion and God knows what, erm off he goes back to you know, sitting up there on the right hand of God saying you know... I'm the Son of God which he is, so Oedipus, Oedipus is expelled by his parents, there's a prophecy he will murder his father and marry his mother, so they get rid of him, but he doesn't die, he... gets found by a shepherd, brought up by a shepherd. You all know what happens later. Er, there are lots and lots and lots of stories. An Indian, Indian myth made dozens of them. It's very very. So concluded that this was a common pattern, however there is one exception. The only exception is Moses and in Moses as Kirsty says, the story seems the wrong way round. Is it Moses. The parents are humble Jewish erm immigrants in Egypt, the adoptive parents of the Egyptian royal families, Emma reminds us the daughter of Pharaoh finds Moses floating in the bulrushes. Now Freud says if... this myth, this can't be the original myth because the original myth has as Andrea pointed out to us very clearly in her paper is the family romance bit that a lot of people or most people have. Many people can, can remember it that in their youth they saw their when they're their early childhood they saw their parents were very special people the parents. Later of course as up this early infantile attitude where you idolize your parents becomes replaced by a more rational and so on, but Freud's finding was that this early attitude in childhood doesn't get er abolished, it just gets repressed, it's forced out of conscious because you true and of course things that are not true have to be removed consciousness, but they cannot be erased, so they're forced into the unconscious and they live in the unconscious and they feed myths like the Myth of the Birth of the Hero and all of us in our er... erm... in our er... conscious see the hero as a, as a parental figure... that reflects the family romance, the idea that once we were, we were a special child with very special parents. So the point of conclusion is if the myth is different in the Bible then the likely explanation is that it was tampered with, but that the scribes and the people who wrote the Bible altered the and they changed it round why should they change this myth? Of course the answer is changing the myth would have made Moses Hebrew and not Egyptian, because if Moses had been the daughter of Pharaoh he would had to been Egyptian and that the Hebrews couldn't tolerate because at a later stage their religion became strongly ethnic and racially divided, you really got to be born Jewish to be Jewish, so they couldn't tolerate their, their founding fathers of not being anything but Jewish, so they altered it, they changed the records and they falsified the myth, but they left this glaring inconsistency in it, so the myth is no longer it's er rewritten... and this is one of the little bits of evidence and now of course erm if you don't take psychoanalyst insights into the family romance seriously, that may not cut much ice for you, but if you... erm... appreciate the force of these unconscious stereotypes in creating this like this, it's cert it's a quite potent piece of evidence because you think well why should the, the Bible change the myth, why can't it just put up with the normal myth. It's just one, one of those many piec pieces of evidence you know so that the Freud you know like the great detective you know uses all these little insignificant facts and finally puts them all together and draws everybody together you know in the drawing room and says I will now reveal the murderer, you know Moses was not an Egyptian, sorry Moses was not a Jew he was an Egyptian. Well, Well, yes I mean he says yes, yes he does say about that, he says that he has no doubt that there was a historical and said there were two Moses. Apparently as you know I mean biblical criticism is a very and well people have devoted their whole lives to it, but apparently there is a, a school o of, quite a large school I think o of biblical critical that claims that there are actually two Moses and not one. The two figures have been kind of squelched together just as in, in Exodus there are two, sorry in erm in er Genesis there are two er Garden of Eden stories... so they claim there are two Moses figures who have been erm as it were compounded together, but both of them says Freud were powerful religious leaders and they probably did give their followers moral principles, perhaps not exactly as we have but something very like it and so Freud is not sceptical about that. He believes there was a man Moses, he believes he did exist though actually probably two of them. He does believe they were powerful leaders and that to some extent the Bible... erm shows a true like for example Freud says that there are some in the like Moses' temper, and he loses his temper, he murders an Egyptian Freud. That could well be a bit of verisimilitude, it may well be the original man Moses was a powerful man with a powerful temper and perhaps this was come down to us er as, as a bit of historical truth, but erm... nevertheless the whole figure of Moses and his laws by later generations... and this, this th what Freud is trying to do is to erm undo this rewriting the process again truth. You can still see it going on today and it still happens doesn't it like the Good News Bible if you look at that, I mean this a version of the Bible rewritten, presumably to tell people good news I don't know, I've never, never read it but I presume that that's what the Good News Bible does and we now have countless bibles, where, where, where, where God is, God is female... erm my guess is supposing that were the only Bible we had a feminist bible were no other bible and everybody for hundreds of years believed it, my guess is that in the future literary critics and bible critics could study that very carefully and I bet you somewhere there you'll find internal evidence to show that once God had been male and had his gender changed, I'm quite sure of it because edit a whole book like the Bible and completely eliminate all the evidence that God was once male would be a very difficult here, here and there you need little bits of evidence... and, and again there's lots of others I'll mention in the lecture like God's name. In the Bible God has two names, er Yarway Anno Domini and er Freud says that Domini could be a corruption of [speaker004:] [cough] [Chris:] and er there is some evidence that the two words are the same and that the original name of God was and that God was the sun and again there is evidence of sun worship er in the Bible. Again, the editors didn't the Son of Righteousness. When Christians hear that they usually think it's spelt S O N but it isn't, it's S U N and the Sun of Righteousness er with healing in his wings, so Freud says and I believe it's actually this seen it, it's very common on Egyptian monuments it's a picture of a sun er with, with wings, with rays shining out of it. That's the Sun of Righteousness with healing in its wings. Actually the healing is not usually in the wings it's in the hands that come out from the sun and the healing is the of Ancient Egypt which meant life, spirit and er and health. So the Sun of Righteousness with healing in its wings is probably an Egyptian symbol so Freud. Again there's a lot of other evidence that Freud doesn't mention and he could have done like the Ark.... Er if you read the accounts of the Ark it looks very like an Egyptian sarcophagus. There are four angels at the corners with outstretched wings. This is a typical pattern of an Egyptian sarcophagus. I personally think the Ark was Moses' sarcophagus and they carried it erm to the Promised Land probably with the embalmed body of Moses in it. That's what Harrison Ford should have discovered! And when they opened the Ark they should have discovered Moses in it but they didn't because it was and there we are. That'll teach you. Sorry saddened spirits. [speaker004:] the point [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker004:] That in fact [Chris:] Right, oh yes it's got a, a lot of discrepancies, but the point is that the discrepancies it has are... explicable in terms of what the discrepancies were trying to hide and correct and to that extent it's a bit like psychoanalysing an individual patient. When you analyze their conscious,, you discover that all the changes and the rewritings level after a tendentious purpose to hide certain things and to keep certain things in the repressed and the same is true o of the Bible, in other words all these rewritings and were not just random, they were often motivated by a desire to hide or change certain things. In other words they, they show a definite pattern and you can determine what that pattern was. Well yes Well for example one of the things, one of the consistent kinds of changes that seems to have occurred is an attempt to deny polytheism, but there are lots of places in the Bible where it hasn't been consistent and where God on occasions speaks in the Bible erm... as if other gods could exist, like I, I, I'm the Lord, I'm a jealous god. Why should he be jealous if there are no gods to be jealous of? There are lots of bits of evidence that suggest that the Bible has been consistently rewritten to make it more monotheistic than it really was in the beginning. In the beginning, okay believed in and or whatever you wanna call it, but it also believed in other gods as well, except he was the chief god, he was number one god as it were and he's the one you got to follow. These other gods exist, but they're the wrong gods. There was a tendency says Freud to eliminate all the wrong gods and say there is only one god... but the whole point. That of course is exactly what Akhenaten tried to do at the beginning another example the return of the repressed its original religious intolerance. Well it's an interesting thesis. As I said I'll be having quite a lot to say about in the lectures, so we'll just regard this class as a kind of prelude to that. Er Andrea, er it's gone eleven I mustn't detain you any longer. Congratulations on excellent paper, first class er well done. Next week are hearing from Simone who isn't here. Now folks if you see Simone... remind her. Anybody know Simone anthropologists? Okay Yes. Yeah let me tell you actually yeah the following week. [speaker004:] Oh okay. [Chris:] Two weeks today okay. [Anne-marie:] Great opportunity to pass on genes effortlessly, though the female has a limited number of eggs which has specific requirements for survival and therefore temporar temporarily stalls her reproductive success. So from the moment of concep conception because females are biologically out-of-gear now have a much higher potentially accepted success. Even if relative initial differences in intentionally productive success they have the groundwork for different male and female receptive strategies.... Now first the receptive strategy for males. For males the characteristic meaning of strategy is the continuous pattern of low or no. Because of high potential reproductive success and their effort to earn the parental care for seeking additional mates. internal behaviour in in most species. Another reason for low in males is the. In species where fertilization is internal, they are also much less pertinent with genetic relationship of offspring because investing in unrelated offsprings one's. Furthermore, males minimize vest investment in attempt to their potential for reproduct for a high reproductive success. This takes a great deal of effort because simply having the potential for a greater reproductive success in females does not necessarily mean that they actual have ha actually have greater reproductive success. This is because males vary greatly among themselves in success. Such males have large numbers of offspring while others might have none at all. Erm so we still that in general erm males have potential for greater reprodu reproductive success than females, but erm this, this doesn't actually, they don't always er actualize their potential because erm... some do there's a great difference among males and erm just some of them will have great er large numbers of offspring, whereas other males might not have any at all. Erm for the females the variance in reproductive success is of the, the differences in the female condition such as the ability to invest in offspring, erm or food producing, but among the males the variation in reproductive success are a function of male competition and female shortage. Males compete with each other for females and for ever more are subject to females for particular members are not the reproductive strategy for females. For females mating strategy differs due to and reproductive success of biological specialization and parental care, such as the gestation. Consequently females are expected to select mates most capable of investing resources in their offspring. Possible strategies include the domestic strategy where the female recognizes domestic qualities in males in advance and therefore benefits herself by choosing a male with qualities. An alternative strategy is the where the female is resigned to getting no help from the mate and concentrating rather on selecting a mate with the best genes and in this case. So as a result of combining both of these strategies the differing male and female strategies [Chris:] Come in. Hi, how you doing? [Anne-marie:] erm you end up with four different... er types of er reproductive strategies which are of monogamy, polygyny, polygamy and polyandry and the first one monogamy is when you have one male and female and er this minimizes the differences in reproductive success and the way it does that is because erm it, it minimizes the difference between the sexes because monogamy takes the limitations of the male erm to reproduce only with the one female so the male to female ratio of reproductive success the same in monogamy, and er what happens to that is this little in er more equal towards their parental investment. Er the second polygyny where you have one male and then females and here reproductive success erm meaning that there's a large again you'll have the males who'll have the large reproductive success than males who have none at all and erm of course often differences between male and female because the male has and the male has opportunities to erm try to control success rate the female biological and er consequently with this kind of system from female choice and male competition and er are about eighty percent and er polygamy is when you have many males and many females and er is also and er I would assume it's kind of like males have opportunities. But again the result of that system the main difference with that would be you know if they had different erm partners, whereas other one partner. Erm polyandry's the last type of example, he has one erm many males and one female and with this system the differences between the sexes is the first and er... males that do their larger parental investment females and it's a very rare. Now on the other side of parental investment is desertion. The other alternatives of parental investment is desertion. When investing offspring, when investing offspring results in increased males stay together, but if it is possible to reach by deserting a partner, then the individual is likely to be erm you can't decide on based on potential opportunities made parental investment. because of the those offspring can survive without further parental investment and if parental investment is therefore. The decision based on a number of current offspring, larger numbers can be greater benefited with and therefore it's more likely that if the parent had a lot of er offspring then he would continue with the investment and erm the conclusion from now is that males have a greater reproductive success, therefore they are more likely to desert because they can erm and erm this and erm the basic argument of this is one parent can get away with investing less share of erm resources... they're likely to spend more er... then they're to do it, so in other words erm if, if one of the, of the two is being to get away with having the other they can go out to er pursue their own and therefore erm each partner force the other to invest more.... Okay that's basically erm... I have to say. I have a few questions of my own erm in, in doing it and erm... was er when you say that, that males... had males... parental investment erm I was wondering how... they, how can a male when the male decides to desert how can they be certain if the female is going to take care of the offspring, because I was wondering if erm if probability like the based by their genes it doesn't matter if one female doesn't take care of the offspring because they... produce more offspring [Chris:] I think that would depend on the species wouldn't it and the, and the local conditions, for example in that erm case I mentioned in yesterday's lecture monogamous birds with long breeding groups where you get desertion. What seems to happen there is the bird that's deserted has to stay with the existing family because if he or she erm deserts, those chicks will, will, will die, so er it's what is sometimes called the Concorde fallacy that if you put a lot of resources into something, you've gotta see it through, because if you pull out just before the end you can lose everything, whereas i if, if you stay on even if you know it's a failure, erm at least you may get something out of it, so the, in that case wi with monogamous birds the parent that's deserted the one that's left may have to stay, because if they desert then they can have no reproductive success whatsoever whereas at least if they stay they get something. Erm... in fact a similar effect happens, I'll be mentioning this in the lecture but let me just mention it now. A similar thing can happen with so-called piracy in fish. Erm one of the problems fish have on this is that they lay their eggs in gravel or something like that and where males have their own nest sometimes another male comes along and er takes it over, hijacks it piracy and interestingly enough what happens in those situations a pirate male will come in, displace the existing male from his nest and fertilize a few eggs and then buzz off. The resident male who was displaced then comes back and looks after all the eggs, including those of the pirate and the reason he does it presumably in the first place he can't distinguish which eggs he's fertilized and those fertilized by the pirate and secondly, he knows he's fertilized some of the eggs and therefore it pays him to stay and look after all of them. So erm in other words i it wou would depend on the circumstances on how much has already been invested.... In the case of human beings of course you have to notice that men seem to have an advantage because as I think I mention i in the lectures, it's perfectly possible, you see this happening in our own society which is supposed to be monogamous, perfectly possible for a man to get married, raise a family and then in his forties to desert his wife and raise a second family. Much more difficult for a woman because by the time a woman's got into her forties, her child rearing erm career is usually rather short and even if she wants to continue, it becomes much more hazardous for her and for her offspring, so er in, in the case of erm modern societies with erm monogamy bu but divorce as we have, you can't help thinking that to some extent the, the odds are, are loaded in the favour of men as it were in terms of their reproductive success. It's paradoxical because often divorce law reforms thought of as favouring women and in circumspect that allows women to get away from an unreasonable husband and that kind of thing, it's certainly true, but at the same time you have to notice that in terms of reproductive success it may benefit more er men more. Okay, now so I think what one may have to say it depends on the species and the circumstance. Does that answer your question? We can come back to this, I mean have you got any others? [speaker004:] Yeah, erm modern when in choosing a mate and er connection with that because... with the assumption that males generally don't give any parental investment what really benefit them to... you know biologically can, can support the offspring themselves short period of time why can't they then go you know to have their own... I mean [Chris:] Right, right Yes, I mean you put your finger on an important problem here that we need to discuss and that is that if you concentrate on human beings in general, and this is true on our own society but I, I think it's true of just about all societies and it's emphatically true of primal hunting adult societies then men do make a lot of parental investment don't they? I mean you think about primal hunting adults like the bushmen or the Australian Aborigines, the... the men do the, do the hunting for erm... for meat and women do the, do the gathering for and the point is that er meat is very nutritious... and it's an important part of their diet and men go hunting and they come back and they share food with their wives and their relatives or someone and male parental investment is terribly important... So women for instance if you ask David McKnight who's a world authority on the Australian Aborigines and has spent many years living with them, say what do women look for in the traditional society, what do women look for in a husband? His answer is immediate and emphatic a good hunter, he says you know what a woman wants in a, in a husband is a man who can you know bring home the bacon literally, er it's not smoked of course, but it's fresh! But you see the point, so in our species and of course in most societies this is true men are breadwinners whether in an agricultural society or an industrial society erm you know one often feels that if you're the man in the family you earn all the money your wife spends it on [LAUGHTER] most of the time [] erm it certainly happens to me er [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] I spend most of my time working while my wife spends most of the time shopping but erm [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] she certainly spends the money, but erm... but the, the Well I think you know you've gotta, gotta speak up for us poor husbands sometimes [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] erm the er but you see the point I'm making, in our species males do contribute. Now, this contribution is not direct, it's indirect in the sense that males, a male for example who is provisioning... a wife who is pregnant is not directly invent investing in the offspring clearly you can't do that she has to do that, cos the offspring's inside her body, but indirectly he may be feeding his wife, protecting her and providing for her in, in a way that is absolutely critical to her reproductive success too. So it's important to notice that in many species and certainly in ours, although males need not as you say make any contribution apart from their genes in principle, in fact males are heavy investors in offspring, albeit indirectly, so that must be important mustn't it and that must [speaker004:] But the thing is that it seems that we're a cultural the way the system is set up [Chris:] Yeah [speaker004:] I mean to begin with then obviously the female livelihood they depend on that primal investment it's, it's a situation the way that... that it's divided up [Chris:] Well presumably the reason why the men do the hunting is that they're... they figure they're more aggressive and are not gonna be pregnant or incumbent to children. [speaker004:] Well,i i i i in that sense it's logical that they're the ones that do er the hunting and I guess the way it's set up logical I think [Chris:] Mm [speaker004:] but I don't see, I'm trying to make it like a genetic connection or something I mean or some kind of... like you know I mean to me it's just... set up [Chris:] Yes, yes sorry Katherine? [Katherine:] Erm I think well the which is erm which is directly extrapolated to like what happened now [Chris:] Mm. [Katherine:] and there's this thing about I mean you know that there... that we may be behaving, there may be erm ways that we behave that aren't actually functional th the, the society we've got now might not actually be functional because of the technology we've got [Chris:] Yeah [Katherine:] well that's the problem [Chris:] Yeah. [Katherine:] I mean [Chris:] Yeah [Katherine:] then but when that becomes [Chris:] No, oh no, certainly not, but, but I mean before we get to the prescriptive level which is quite er a, a long way down the road, at the analytic level I think, I think Anne-Marie's point is she's trying to understand erm just what the... the significances of these difference in parental investment are. Er the point I was making to her was erm in her paper which er was excellent by the way, I forgot to say and I think you put it all very clearly and very nicely,y you, you very nicely set out the basic... idea that the consequence and that in principle a male need contribute nothing more than his... penis. Th th the point that erm we were then discussing was that in practice of course males may,m ma may contribute a lot more an and, and the question was is this er something to do with the adaptions of our species or is it just the this was the question you, you asked me wasn't it? And Katherine's point was what the system today of course is quite different than what and that is of course completely true. Erm, the, the question remains however I mean er you, this is, this is your point really... to what extent other... other characteristics er may erm... may be part of the same erm of the same thing... for example if, look at sexual dimorphism. Human beings as we know are sexually dimorphic and tha that figure seems to fit the er... the, the pattern, but erm... women have a lot of characteristics that are peculiar to them, like for example erm more youthful looks, women will retain more youthful looks longer than men do and it is normally regarded as important... and a lot of women spend an awful lot of money in the modern society on trying to remain erm looking er looking youthful. Now why is that? Could that be for example because males with resources would want normally to acquire youthful wives, or perhaps it might in other words it could be couldn't it that if males provide resources to females that they can use for primal investment, this would then have selective effects on females who will want certain things in order to get erm the investment and one of the things they might want to do is to look youthful. I dunno it kind of figures doesn't it... or not? Alex looks very sceptical. [speaker004:] No I don't, I'm still thinking about what you said yesterday about premature ejaculation [Chris:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. [speaker004:] and younger men [Chris:] Th it all fitted together did it oh I [LAUGHTER] oh I see [] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] I was sort of like more light-hearted sort of er like er got plenty of money, but it's crappy pay. [Chris:] Oh yes, I like the joke you know er er where one women says to another how could X possibly marry him you know [speaker004:] Yeah [Chris:] he, he, he's [speaker004:] Got a nasty cough, providing disorders [Chris:] you know he's short and ugly an and the other lady says to her but er you should see how tall he is when he stands on his wallet. I [LAUGHTER] mean [] [speaker004:] Yeah and he starts premature ejaculation [Chris:] Erm [speaker004:] I mean it could be or it could be the reason why er why younger [LAUGHTER] not [] [Chris:] Yes, I mean it's generally true isn't it I think of all societies I can't think of any o of, of any exceptions that it normally is older males who have more resources. I think in all societies I can't [speaker004:] It can older males that [Chris:] Well [speaker004:] gonna say you know [Chris:] yeah There's an interesting study in the book printed by Bergahoff, Moulder and so on all those you know there's four, thing, thing and thing erm human reproductive whatever it is, it's on the reading list, of Kipsigy Payments now that's, has anybody read that? Well that's interesting the Kipsigies are er traditional people who live in Kenya and if they have, in other words er men have to pay a certain amount to the erm you know, woman if they're gonna marry her and what they did was they study the and related it to the, to the girl that was actually getting married and what they found of course was that it fits the predictions of our theory er just as you'd expect, given that the cultural things you have to allow for like, like for example in that most traditional cultures they like er women to be plump as we'll see in the, in the... actually fat is critical to female fertility and er so they might not have been plump, so what they did was they simply weighed the girls and they compared their, their, their weights with, with the, with the and sure enough strong correlation the fatter the girl, the bigger the. In a way they were [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] and they had two they had two disabled girls, there are two girls who were erm you know physically er disabled, I forget what was wrong with them I think one had a clubfoot or something an and they were almost free they weren't completely free, but they were nearly free because of their disabilities and Yeah, exactly, so if, if you look at it in terms of the Kipsigy you know system, you can clearly see that what they showed was youth and plumpness were the critical fac an an and attractiveness, if the girl was young, plump and attractive she got a high and if the girl was older erm, if she had something wrong with her or she was skinny, then the less and that's, so it's quite interesting [speaker004:] Did they find that the older men? [Chris:] Well, yes now in fact we know they have not in that study. Now that doesn't the Kipsigy was just the study of the erm... you know it's a good statistical it's good hard-hat social science you know with distribution and everything it's all good stuff, erm... they don't say that, where we do know this is something I have researched myself very carefully, the Australian Aborigines erm we have rich data on this and I've read an awful lot of it and I compared notes with world authorities like David McKnight and erm erm what's his name erm... Shapiro authority on this, and they agree that er that's definitely what happens. In Australian Aborigines the young, the young girls go to the er the older powerful men. Of course, if you think about it the consequences of that is these guys die and when they die, those wives that they married as young girls are now middle-aged women or possibly younger, anyway past their youth, but th th they, they may not be. Certainly they're re-marriageable and these are societies where every woman is married but no spinsters, so they're redistributed. Very often they have a bit of a say in it, because you know that the young girl hasn't got, but erm... interestingly enough they tend to get recycled to young men and it's the older men that get the young girls from their older male and it's younger men who get. You can sometimes get a situation that occurs where a man is married to a woman who is in fact his grandmother, this can happen. This leads to horrifying [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] you think that if you work if you, if you think about it, in other words he has married... a woman who is the mother of a wife of his father who he calls mother. I happen to think this is the key to Australian classificated kinship society very stressful. What is really going on is they are rigging a system to hide that kind of it's clearly anonymous to marry a woman who's your grandmother. Yes, in the sense that y y i it can happen and apparently sometimes does that the young man will receive a recycled wife who is in fact the mother of a daughter who has married his father and so he calls her the daughter-mother, her actual mother is his wife. [speaker004:] I see [Chris:] [LAUGHTER] Absolutely [] and this is why I think they get round this, they've solved this problem by saying okay folks, we will adopt a purely... erm classificator or in other words fictitious, rigged system of kinship and we won't call there and that's what they do. What effectively, I think, I mean I've never actually sat down because it would be an enormous mistake and nobody would thank me for it, but my guess is that those enormously complex classificated can be understood as a method by which old men rig the system for their own benefit and hide this kinds of ridiculous anonymous and the anomaly basically is the young men end up with old wives [speaker004:] When they get older [Chris:] Right, that's what happens you see. When they get [speaker004:] Could it be also that erm children I mean I dunno how they, the children are reared and what sort of situation. Could it be that er evolution in sort of Aboriginal societies are more harsher than that allowed for a more experienced man to teach a young child how to live as opposed to, it, it's beneficial for [Chris:] Yes [speaker004:] experience [Chris:] That's right. Again that, that is, is very clear and it's representing initiation rituals. Because what happens you see in these societies and Australian Aborigines are with no exceptions is that if you want a wife if you're a young man and you want a wife you first of all gotta get initiated. There's no way you will get a wife until you are initiated. In fact you won't get any sexually mature erm er woman to have er any relationship with men, unofficial or otherwise if you're not initiated because they'll just say you're a boy and, and er and er an adult woman would feel it was demeaning you know to sleep with a mere boy, she'd insist you've got to be a man and to be a man you normally got to be initiated and that normally means being circumcised. Now the, the initiations are controlled by the elder men who have all, all the wives and if you don't behave and join the club and conform to what th the crown elders expect, you won't get initiated and i if you don't unless you say you won't get any wives and the guys who are doing the initiating the initiated are the very same guys who have all the daughters. So a young man really has to get initiated and conform to what the elders expect if he's going to have any reproductive success at all and that's exactly what happens. So these guys undergo these horrifying initiation rituals to prove you know that they want to join the club band and i if they pass the initiation test then they're joined in and then they're given a wife. In many societies David McKnight tells me the man who does the circumcision who actually chops off the foreskins as it were, owes you a wife for it and he says in many of them if you give a man your foreskin then you've got a right to demand a wife. He says he knows cases where wives weren't given, and there were then very serious er conflicts broken up, because the man who didn't get the wife then thought he'd been cheated and apparently his complaint was you know er wife I give you my foreskin. Apparently they talk like this. David McKnight says this is the language they use you know. Australian Aborigines are very direct about this... so they, so they do expect something back for the initiation an and it's a kind of reciprocal thing where okay, you initiate me and I'll put up with all this crap from you, but you know, you give me a wife, you've got daughters I want a wife and er if I don't get it, there's gonna be real trouble and this is how the system works. So you're quite right, the elder men have a tremendous control, not over on the over-supply of women, but also over the younger men. [speaker004:] How can that be beneficial I know what you're saying but [Chris:] Well I think the answer to that is you've got to remember this kind of hunting is cooperative and cooperative hunting does rely first of all on having other men to go hunting with you which is, which is important and also... or so I'm told by people like David McKnight and Warren Shapiro an awful lot depends on information, we want to know where the game is, who saw what where, what did they catch you know, was there rainfall over the so and so ranges and so on, and you need to know that information if you're gonna be an effective hunter and you need good communication with other men. Er very often Australian Aboriginal societies you meet men the corroborees at these ritual gatherings and if you're one of the club, then in the ritual they'll tell you, they'll say hey, you know, you know... you know you say where did you get all these kangaroos you know oh we got them over at the so and so ranges or down at the so and so water hole that's where they all are this week, and this is very important information for man. If you're not a member of the club and you're not accepted the rituals and people don't like you, they won't tell you and as a result you won't be an effective hunter, you won't be able to support many wives even if you wanted them and if you have wives what they needed, because if a man doesn't feed his wives they, they, they all eventually get up and go, they'll say two fingers you know, you can't feed us. This is one of the things I want you to se see today and this wonderful film I was gonna show today and I hope I'll show next week, third time lucky, they actually interview the wives, the polygynous wives of... of some erm... erm guy in Africa, some African erm... and they to them they actually ask the wives, why do you, you know why are you married to this man and they say well he feeds us, you know th that's why we're married to him, he gives us food and he's apparently got five this particular man they interviewed, three of them were active and two of them were elderly, and the three active wives are quite open about the fact that this man's a good provider and therefore they stay with him, but they, they wouldn't in the case of Australian Aborigines, they wouldn't stay if they didn't get fed and they only get fed because he's a good hunter and to be a good hunter you need to go on good terms of men and that's how it works. But of course it's, it's a very tough deal for women, I mean women in erm in a way really get the raw end of it because that to some extent they're at the mercy of the whole system, even though they can if they absolutely have to. It's not easy and where's she gonna go? You know she's gotta find someone else to go an and live with because by and large you can't survive on your own in the Australian outback... certainly not if you're a woman, hardly if you're a man. So it, it's as you say it's a very tough, hard life and in order to survive, people really do need the help of other people and that's why you've really got to conform to a large extent in the society and you haven't got a lot of choice about... erm you know wh what you'd like to especially if you're, if you're young and female and not much men not if you want to get any wives that is.... So the erm... but as, but as Katherine reminds us, I mean if, if that's the kind of life our emotional parameters are my, my guess is that that, is that that's probably the truth, certainly a persuasive argument. Then... when you look at the other range of human societies, then you have to say well you know how is it, how is it working out in other... in other types of societies where all the basic erm conditions of life may be different... and that of course is one of these big erm big and small problems... that we still, we're still really at the at the starting point fact. I mean does anybody think that parental investment theory is... relevant at all to modern industrial society or is it completely irrelevant? Matthew you're a, you're a sceptic and a, and a, and a and an independent thinker what do you think? I don't know, I'm not very sort of convinced one way nor the other That sounds judicious. Dean? [Andrea:] Well, I'm, I'm a supporter of it, which you know erm it, it strikes me being far more effective than other forms er of er explanation. [Chris:] How much ice does it cut in the modern industrial society? [Andrea:] I think, I think it... think it must cut quite a lot because I mean there's certain I don't these biological constraints. [Chris:] How would they show themselves I mean?... What people to look you know in the modern society women don't have to rely on men or don't have to have traditional sex roles, this is a point of view isn't it?... [Andrea:] Well I think er I think, well I think you have to have, I mean I don't really parental investment and stuff like that gestation period. [Mike:] I think, I think that in any, I mean in, in, in, if you wanna, if you wanna look at it in terms I mean I think labour it it's always gonna have to be there and I think the biological constraints put the you know, sharpened device [Chris:] Well there are ways aren't there I mean even in traditionally, I mean what of wet-nursing I mean that's an example isn't it where a woman gets another woman to do the job for her. Darren is that, what point were you gonna make? [Mike:] Well I think, like I said two ways one is erm [Chris:] Mm [Mike:] Or if you look at it another way that is men and women are equal and we haven't yet got round that they are very different but they are equal. I dunno, er you know you can put woman staying at home having the child for instance when there aren't enough children to fill the schools realize that having children is a very important in economic values what with nations increasing staying at home [Chris:] Yes I must say I, I personally sympathy with that I mean I think that erm, women's er role is er very much despised and disparaged it should be because if you think about it they're having the children and bringing them up, well this is one of the most worthwhile things to do [speaker004:] society you can't going to survive unless you have a woman back in the having the kids and we might see that as a you know you laugh when I say that, you know [Chris:] Well he doesn't survive, he might survive [speaker004:] Alright, alright this is what I mean [Chris:] yeah, yeah [speaker004:] but you know it's really difficult discussing this topic without people sniggering and getting all upset. It's that they have equal decisions, really so you can't say. It's only how we of behaviour [Chris:] Well [speaker004:] but they are really equal because without one another, they're not gonna I don't think, I don't think it will, I think erm... certainly from a cultural point of view the questions that comes up of erm in that type of society they think sod this I'm going hunting, but the fact of the matter is the men. I mean time of physiological difference and strength needs of their strength that they could just about fire a and he couldn't even pull them back and so they you know, fine if you wanna go hunting use the boat Yeah the arrows, but the Yeah, yeah and, it's but then it's a question of where a woman... a woman could, but you know is it that easy to jump out cultural... you know cultural investment provided by that and er... you know y y y you and if a man is slightly stronger other way round so he can collect, collect more food and another argument which is that [Chris:] Yeah, it's the, it's the with the word natural isn't it that er you know people often use the word natural to mean good and right and therefore something you should do, but of course no not always I mean if I said to you death is natural, nobody here would think I was advocating suicide or that er we shouldn't have hospitals to try and save people's lives I mean er when you say death is natural, what you mean is death is one of those things that we just have to put up with, we'd rather we didn't but we're all gonna have to face it in the end, some of us sooner than others er [LAUGHTER] but erm but there we are. However if you say erm oh well you know erm boys will be boys that's natural,tha that sounds as if you're kind of making excuses for them and condoning them, so I think you've got to be very careful about how you use the word natural and clearly it raises the whole question of how far you can, you can push erm... cultural ideals against natural constraints an and what really is the issue. You see it may be that... Dean's right I must admit I think I, I agree with Dean I think he is right that the real problem is that natural selection may have fitted us by, as it were, rigging our emotional system. It may be at a, at a truly rational level we can all perfectly well do all kinds of other things rationally on a truly rational level, because there we have this... this er high degree of that comes with rationality, but at a deeper, kind of gut level, the emotional feelings we, we find that it's, it's much more difficult, and at that point if you don't try and change things and do things that are unnatural, you find you're kind of going against the emotional grain and er perhaps some people find it easier than others, but perhaps everybody will feel a certain erm tug as it were, certain erm discomfort or a certain emotional alienation from themselves which er perhaps is because we're trying to do something more basic we just weren't designed for. I don't know I mean this would... Would you sympathise with that Dean? [Andrea:] Yeah, yeah question so, so we're, we're saying that the difference between male and female roles in this disruptive selection. [Chris:] Sorry remind us what you mean by disruptive selection again. [Andrea:] Where, well where er disruptive selection i i i is very huge differences between men, male and female and this was then accentuated over a period of time [Chris:] Oh I see what you mean yes, fine, okay. [Andrea:] Okay, so are, so, so it's just tha tha tha that along with this a psychological context, so you got a biological and psychological going hand-in-hand simultaneously. [Chris:] Yes, I mean this is the point I'll be developing later, later in, in, in the lectures, I'm currently spending a lot of time kind of researching and thinking about this, but... i i it's ultimately the question of genes affect behaviour and more and more I come to the to the view that they probably do so erm through what we call our emotions, that our genes kind of erm guide us to do so and things through various subjective feelings like when we're hungry, we, we know we're hungry and it's a subjective feeling of hunger. What is actually happening of course we know in that case what is actually happening, because nerves erm er neurones in, in the base of the brain are actually sampling the blood flow as it goes through with sugar level and when the sugar level drops to a critical point, some of those neurones start to fire and as they fire gradually the message is passed on up to the higher brain centres and eventually you get the feeling you're hungry. Now, you, you're, that's a subjective feeling, you don't actually know that there are neurones in your blood sugar level, but you, you certainly know when you need something to eat and it, it's a kind of subjective feeling and it's not farfetched in the least to claim that our genes have rigged our brain in that way to do that because obviously we'd like to have more reproductive success if you know when you're hungry than when you don't and it may be that a lot of, in a lot of other ways genes affect our, our behaviour through similar erm effects, that is subjective feelings we have, often of an emotional nature to make us want to do certain things and an an and dislike doing others, and it may be that we, we're really kind of lumbered with that. [speaker004:] Why is it in the genes why is it people are able to adjust their diets [Chris:] Well, oh yes, I'm sure I'm not saying that's the only thing that controls people's food intake I mean clearly there are things cultural some cultures, the Japanese seem to love eating raw fish, I mean [LAUGHTER] how they can bring themselves [] to do it I do now know, I mean the raw is I don't think I'd want to eat again, but er erm not always if they were cooked either, but erm... the, the er and certainly if you look at the Australian Aborigines even though we take the Australian Aborigines as our kind of primeval people, they have astonishing food taboos, I mean their attitudes to food are very very culturally er effective to, to a quite extraordinary extent, some so that somebody... somebody discovered that eating a tabooed food by accident, they'll get very ill, a kind of psychosomatic illness. So I'm not saying th th that there aren't these th the important other inputs, but, but what I am saying is that if you ask yourself where the kind of gene behaviour interface really exists is clearly in the human er in, in the human mind and it may be that the basic kind of parameters erm have, have been set for our emotions and I really don't see how we can change those. [speaker004:] I was thinking for instance when you have generation of young men how do you, what's the time left to something extreme can be done culturally and people can be sort of you know convinced that they're right and that they go out there and get machine guns can be done culturally, whereas [Chris:] Well it may be of course that that kind of thing has always tended to happen gather of society skirmishing goes on and young men are expected to go and find very often [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, more immediately, but I mean when they're sort of it has [Chris:] Well then I agree, then I, then I think you do need a fairly sophisticated psychological theory to try and explain er how that could come about. That's one of the reasons why I'm, why I'm also interested in er in Freud because I think Freud provides that, I happen to think that Freud's studies of, of crowd group psychology actually explain that, although it takes time to you know, certainly not at five minutes to four, it takes time to explain, but I think there is an explanation there and I think you c y y you can claim that there are certain emotions to do with identification and idealization,th that our genes have a programmer which things like erm nationalistic erm, erm er kind of jingoism can exploit in a modern culture which in primal cultures would have primal cultures people identify with their, with their local kin and their local culture and that's... that might ultimately promote their reproductive success, but that in modern cultures, this identification occurs with erm... on a completely different level and with lots of people will not merely because you need so many more people modern cultures you have much more erm much bigger groups and you just meet many more people that, than you were ever... th there is some interesting research, research recently published for instance which shows erm... organizations seem to have a critical size and that people are not really able to track more than about two hundred and fifty other people, in other words you can have face-to-face relationships with up to about two hundred and fifty others, but once it gets beyond two hundred and fifty it's too much and you start forgetting somebody as if the brain was primed to an optimum group size and once you get above that you just can't keep. Have you read about that? That's right, I would say so Yeah That's right, yeah yeah. Yeah That's right yeah. [speaker004:] Is there also something to do what's happening in Eastern Europe. They say you know Swiss [Chris:] Well you see the, the, the great Soviet experiment is a good example isn't it of, of a whole civilization was based on a o o on a kind of great social experiment was based on ultimately on erm unsound principles and then a part of the scenes. Er and I suppose the great you know lesson of social sciences in, in some ways if it's, if it's for anything it ought to be to try and avoid that kind of disaster, because erm... if we understood ourselves better we might you know in the future try and avoid that thing because we just wouldn't attempt if, if that wasn't an attempt to be. So erm I mean the justification for this kind of course I would claim is ultimately to try and make people more realistic about what is possible... and er the, because th th the advantage of knowing what's possible is you can avoid impossible experiments that ultimately result in disaster for everyone.... Well sceptical silence, but that's what I'd like to think that we, we were doing. Well yes. Drug, anti-drug legislation may be another thing. Of course drugs is, is one of the wonderful examples that the very thing that Katherine was talking about, something that wasn't there in the beginning and that has been produced by modern technology and is now a big problem, but is not a problem to Australian Aborigines because they don't have any drugs... er to speak of, of course now they do and alcohol is a terrible problem with Australian Aborigines I talked to David McKnight about it. Absolutely awful. Well the Australians are at least trying to [LAUGHTER] didn't have much success apparently [] Really? [speaker004:] and they went loco [Chris:] Folks it's four o'clock erm just a second erm just before you go let me remind you next week it's Laura. Okay? And Darren we gotta, I'll see you in just a sec. [phonecall starts] Hello. Ah really? Erm, who, who gave you the message? Oh er, I, I don't think I ra I don't think I rang you actually, er I wonder if the message was from someone else. Erm, I do need to see you some time erm... let me just... just see erm, but I've got your erm your last term's report here that we need to meet to discuss. Er, could, could we make a date? Erm, as I said it wasn't me that phoned originally, my guess is that there may be somebody else at the school who is trying to contact you, but while you're on the line, let's just make a little... let's just make a little date. Erm... what about, when would be convenient for a quick tutorial?... What about Thursday?... Right. What about next week, what about Monday?... Right y your day off, well that means you don't want to come into the school?... Okay next Monday, what time would suit you?... Right. Right. Could we make it at erm two P M? Right, that's two P M next Monday the first February, okay. See you then. As I said I didn't phone, I dunno who it was. Erm, it might be an idea to try and get hold of him whoever took the message cos it might be something important, but anyway I'm glad you phoned. Thanks, bye [phonecall ends]. Right now, sorry to keep you waiting for a minute. Erm, now did we, did we do your reports? [Mike:] No. [Chris:] Right, let's, let's do that first cos that's important. Erm, I'll have to sign the form. There we are, right. Right I got all four here of course I didn't bother to write a comment cos I'm delighted. I've given you an A for participation B plus for written work and that gives you an average of B which is good or excellent. So that's alright there's no problems there. Now... Mr 's philosophy [Mike:] Aha. [Chris:] has given you A for participation which is good, C for written work which is satisfactory and B minus for assessment, so it actively participates er gave a paper for the class, but no second essay. Does that mean you owe him an essay or something? [Mike:] No, essays, you got both you've got two essays. [Chris:] Well, right he's, this was probably written before he got the second one, because they would have done this last term [Mike:] They were handed in on time, handed in on time. [Chris:] Well, perhaps you ought to bring that [Mike:] He marked them both. [Chris:] I should raise that with him [Mike:] He's marked them both [Chris:] Has he? [Mike:] Yeah. [Chris:] Right. [Mike:] I mean I got pretty bad marks I find it difficult, find it very difficult. [Chris:] Really? [Mike:] Well, it's frustrating the hell out of me you know. [Chris:] Why's that? [Mike:] I've never done any

[Chris:] Let's er find my... the light... thingy No, not today. No, there's no film today. Okay, so who's entertaining us this morning? Ah, how nice it's from psychology. Is it? Yes. Okay, off you go now. Well done, excellent. Well done Joy erm [cough] a nice summary of a [cough] complex book and er there's obviously a lot of things that will have to go of the erm lecture on it next week, so really this is not due to be talked about. By the way Tom while I'm on it erm I mislead you yesterday erm I look in my list I realized I It's, it's Tom who's doing it, I just wrote Tom and I thought you were in yesterday's group, but you're in today's group so it can't be you, it's Tom. So ignore that, I mixed you up with Tom I do apologize. You're not doing. In fact we haven't got you down for a paper at all in this class yet I don't think so if you'd like to do one for us you can see me about it afterwards. Okay, well erm Joy has outlined as I said this, this, this rather complex book erm what erm... wh wh what issues do people want to er want to raise about it?... [speaker002:] What's it say that the people who don't like being in groups... [Chris:] Well... What would you say? [cough]... [Joy:] Erm [Chris:] Some people are more groupie than others. Some people are [Joy:] [LAUGHTER] I think erm yeah they are... [Chris:] What, taking the kind of analysis Freud uses in this book, what... features in the individual would you look for, in order to answer these questions? I mean what, what psychological characteristics would make one person more... groupie than another or more needing or wanting or enjoying belonging to a group than another? Can anyone suggest what features of the individual you might isolate as critical? Mhm n n why's that, could you explain that? [Dean:] Because... in a group you y y y you get this erm... the individual's ego and they,th they take on this the super ego of the, of a leader... so they get this transparent idea... so if a person got a stronger ego, then they're, then they're less likely to... lose that and take on somebody else's ideas. [Chris:] Yes I think that's, that's certainly true isn't it and here erm Dean puts his finger really on what is a central concept of Freud's group psychology and one reveals transparent in the title of the book which is Group Psychology and the Analysis of Ego or in German erm Masse Psychologie und dich Analyse so erm [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] the fact that Freud linked the two things together, the very title of the book shows the evil th that group psychology and ego psychology were intimately... intimately connected with one another and er the central idea was that as Dean rightly says is that in a group the leader or the leading principal, and it doesn't always have to be a person, although usually a person plays, kind of represents the, the er... the leader in the way that the Pope represents Christ for example, you know Christ can't be here right now, he's doing other things elsewhere I presume. Erm [cough] the... the leader of the... of, of, of the group is, is the focus and... as Dean has said and as Joy explained, takes over functions of the individual's ego, super ego. What kind of functions does the leader exercise for the individual?... Because there's quite a list of them and I think they explain many of the descriptive characteristics of o of goods or that Freud refers to. That's certainly true and in a sense that's the most obvious thing isn't it? The leader as always is er is a directive agency, the leader [cough] as it were erm... takes over the individual self-determination by erm effectively telling... telling the good what to do erm... how can this er... does this have to be in... in one direction only I mean one gets the feelings very often you know you see things in the newspaper crowd hysteria and so on, erm do crowds always have to become kind of primitive and regressed or... or can leaders influence them in other directions?... Cos certainly you, sometimes you get the feeling don't you that okay being in the crowd or the group may reduce people's... self-determination and self control, but the result is mayhem. So does that always have to happen?... Well what would you say Joy, because you did touch on this in your, in your comments? Do, do groups always have to the behaviour and performance of their members or can they do the opposite?... What do you think Dean I mean? Is that why you were thinking some people might not want to belong to groups cos they always see er the group as detracting from their ego?... [Dean:] Yeah perhaps, I, I know that it applies to some people. [Chris:] Mm. [Dean:] I mean I, I don't feel comfortable talking... I'm talking in a whole group I don't feel quite as comfortable not actually here, but in, in a debate situation talking to say two or three people. [Chris:] Yes. [Dean:] there must be some people there that wonder what that was really. [Chris:] Well of course tha that might just be intimidation by large numbers of other people, like you know having to stand up in front of a group of other people, I think anybody feels the same. Erm... er... embarrassment or reticence because there are so many other people erm there, but I think you, you meant more than that didn't you and [Dean:] Yes, yeah I did yeah [Chris:] er you were, you were saying that er for some people the group is a kind of a danger cos it takes something away from them, and that's certainly true, but the th the point I was, I was getting at was that [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] if, if Freud's theory of the group is correct, that it's centred on the leader playing the super role then the... presumably the leader could exhort members of the group to act better than they normally would, because after all one of the super leader's functions is to set the goals for the ego and to give the... the goal, the ego something to aspire to... so er and as Joy mentioned in her papers and I'm trying to remind you of,y you, you said that quoting Freud if you recall that, that, that Freud says and I think he, he, he repeats this from the also made the same observation that... in a group or a crowd people can act a lot worse than they normally would, they can be more destructive, primitive erm and er more governed by their erm base emotions as it were, but equally in a crowd people can act better than they normally would. They can be more selfless, more public spirited, more erm idealistic than they would be on their own, because the super ego can presumably erm influence the ego in both directions, it can make the ego erm transcend itself as it were to higher ideals and like someone sometimes sees this in, in group behaviour, but equally of course it can erm debase the ego by setting lower standards than the ego would normally accepted itself. So erm,it it's important to remember that... Freud's theory explains both of these tendencies and both the tendency for the group to make people better than they might normally be, but also that the tendency for the group perhaps to make them worse and of course either can happen and presumably a lot depends on the, on the leader, the leader [cough] or whoever is playing the, the leadership function presumably has erm some responsibility for this. Er... in a sense you could say that the leader becomes the conscience of the, of the group. Now in, in, in the book, and this is a diagram in the book that the person who did this paper yesterday in yesterday's class put on the board, erm... Freud doesn't use the term super ego, that term I think was first used by Freud a year or two later in his book The Ego which I think is nineteen twenty three. In nineteen twenty one he used the term ego ideal for what [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] the term ego ideal I think reflects very nicely this idea of erm... the super ego as setting the standard to which the ego inspires. The later term that Freud adopted to this super ego has become... synonymous in people's minds with conscience the idea of... the super ego as the... the role of conscience and presum presumably that's another aspect of the same thing and er... Serg Moskovicy in his excellent book Age of the Crowd erm which is on the reading list which I can thoroughly recommend... in discussing this point of how Freud sees the leader as the kind of super ego of the followers quotes one of the Nuremberg war criminals, I forget which it was now erm... Goering or Goebbels or one of these er people who when asked of the Nuremberg war tribunals why did you do the things you did, replied Adolf Hitler was my conscience and that's er that's a very erm good example of this idea of er how the... the role of conscience can be transferred from the individual to the, to the leader of the group and I suppose Dean you would say erm illustrates one of the greatest dangers of group, group membership because er obviously if... if that happens in a group, then erm individuals are to some extent erm surrendering their moral self-responsibility and of course if Freud's insight is correct, then there was an element of truth in... in this... in this excuse Adolf Hitler was my conscience. I'm not saying it's one that the tribunal should have accepted, but, but, but what I'm saying is th there is an element of psychological truth in that, because if Freud's theories if er bond Freud theory group behaviour is correct, then that does seem to happen some extent that the... leader as it were takes and presumably this is why some people erm... presumably er feel better in groups, perhaps that they get something out of a group that their own ego cannot provide, but other people are uncomfortable in groups because they feel that their ego is being alienated and they're losing some of their... some of their power. So some people are erm... are really rather allergic to groups, and I'm certainly one of them! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Which is why my career has never flourished. Well no, er at least I don't think he does er [Heather:] Well why [Chris:] Yeah. [cough] Well this would be the other side of the picture. In the book Freud emphasises the bonds portrait of the crowd that... Joy outlined to us. The, the other side of the picture is, is, is, is the loner as it were. Now, explore the psychology of the loner a bit more for us Heather, I mean what Usually does. Would everybody think that?... Well explain why because there's an interesting point here you touch on. [Heather:] Erm [Chris:] Just expand that a bit. Why, why do you come to that judgment? Yeah, you see, you see the paradox Yeah, I see what y y y you're getting at, let me give an ex er an illustrated example which I think might help or at least bring, bring the paradox out of those clearly. What about psychotherapeutic groups? Because if... if you... took the... the ideas of Freud's seriously, and a lot of people who work with groups, the therapeutic groups claim to, do you think you would... come to the same conclusion as Heather, I mean c could you have for example a, a psychotherapeutic group could you do group psychotherapy? Well if, and if you took this Freud's theory seriously. What are the implications of that for group psychotherapy? You see the individual [speaker002:] it's not so good is it not yeah [Chris:] You see the individual patient's dilemma, we've got no problem with the loner who comes for individual psychoanalysis they have been on their own th there's no problem there, but... but what about the group analytic situation? What, what's the problem there? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Well yes, I mean... th this is certainly the was born in fact I, I commented on this in my... in my book when I was talking about this book before group psychology I... I made one or two erm fairly erm critical comments about, about group, group, group psychotherapy. I would like to think that if Freud... were alive today, he would have said the same thing, of course when Freud wrote this book in nineteen twenty one er... there was no such thing as group psychotherapy it hadn't been invented yet, it was to become very much after World War Two but partly existed before and perhaps it's past its peak now, but erm it did become very much a after World War Two and the point I made was and this is really wh wh what Heather ha h has just said, that if you take Freud's book on, on group seriously, how can you do group psychoanalysis? You can certainly do group suggestive therapy and here we touch on another point that erm Joy reminds us of and Freud makes quite a bit on the book the parallel between being in a group and being hypnotized, because the, the, the role of the hypnotist is to take over completely [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] you go or the person who has been hypnotized so that in the most extreme cases, as we know, the hypnotized person lapses into a kind of trance, whether a kind of sleeping automaton with no ego and their decisions are now being made for them by the hypnotist who tells them what do to and they, they act as a kind of a, a puppet as if their ego ha has been turned off al al al altogether and clearly there's a parallel here with what Freud's going on in the group. So... if you think about it a therapeutic group could certainly use suggestive therapy like hypnosis and my guess is that most successful groups like Alcoholics Anonymous or groups of people who wanna stop smoking or do slimming and things like that succeed for that reason, cos every member of the group reinforces every other member with a kind of group super ego and says look, you mustn't smoke, you mustn't drink, you mustn't put on weight and it, it reinforces every individual's erm... super ego by means of identification with the shared value of the group and... similarly reduces feelings of shame and guilt if the individual fails the group, cos next week when they come back they say oh dear, I've put on five pounds, erm that they're gonna feel bad about it because it offends against the ideal of the of the group if it's Weight Watchers or something. However, the suggestion is quite different from analysis because as what we've seen what happens in analysis is in analysis the, the individual faces up to their inner and resolves them themselves, it's a kind of a loner solution to use... to use, to use Heather's term. The, in analysis you don't get er someone else to do it for you or you don't get the therapist to play the role of your ego which is really what happens in this suggestion. You get your own ego to face up to its own problems and to make its own decisions, er as I mentioned before a very painful process and a, and a, and a rather gruelling one. So it seems to me that you cannot do analysis in a group because by definition the ego of a person in a group is, is detracted from, whereas in individual psychoanalysis and ideally the ego of the person is added to and enlarged to give them more competence by being made to face up to its repressions. So I must say I entirely agree with Heather on this, it seems to me inevitable logic of Freud's theory and erm... my own view is that group psychoanalysis is a contradiction in terms, you cannot do psychoanalysis in a group of this and those who say they can I think have n... never understood what psychoanalysis is all about and are misleading the public and people pay good money for it. I think if you say you do suggestion therapy in a group, that's fine, that's honest and correct, but to say you can do analysis in a group I think is, is... is actually erm... erm... fraudulent in the sense that it is not true analysis, it must be suggestion therapy. Right. No. Oh, of course the opposite happens in a group, I mean what happens in groups you know therapeutic groups tend to be like this one, they sit in circles and they, they kind of focus on... very often on the leader who often plays a very, very... powerful role even if they claim not to. Very often in therapeutic groups they do claim not to, but in fact er the leader does play a very dominant role er and even when the attention shifts to members of course, the fact that all the other members are watching them means that their reactions and what they say and think and do in a group would have been very much constrained by their actions and expectations o of the other members. Now erm this is... this is... archetypical group behaviour, but... whatever it is, it cannot necessarily reflect erm that individual's own erm peculiar self as it were using peculiar in the... in the strict sense and proper to them, because as we've seen what happens in a group is, is, is the individual. So erm... you can't even see the things you're looking at, I don't think in a group for the, for the reason Heather said, because what will happen is, you will see reflecting individual, the values and aspirations of the group and especially the, the disturbing effects of the other members and the leader. What you're not likely to see is the peculiarities of, of the person erm... showing themselves and if they do show too much, the likelihood is that the rest of the group will start to erm freeze out that individual, regardless because they're no longer corresponding to the... to the ideals of the group... and er so consequently, erm I personally have no time for group psychoanalysis and I would never recommend it to anybody, although of course, for non-analytic things like losing weight or in stopping smoking or drinking, there's a lot to be said for it, but one shouldn't confuse that kind of group reinforcement with erm analysis, cos analysis as we've seen is quite different.... [cough] So that's an important point and one which is not in Freud's book although I'd like to think it would have been, had he written it much later on when, when group... erm therapy had become very fashionable. Though my guess is that it is very unfashionable, is that right Dawn, that people think that? Do you think it's less fashionable than it was? And in the... in the sixties and seventies it was all the rage, but I've got the feeling it had a Yeah, well... therapy of all kinds, I mean [cough] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] That's true, that's true. Mind you Woody is getting on now as er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] as he reflects the situation of a few years ago. [speaker002:] the erm, I mean if there's only one much worse that they know that everyone much better for their [Chris:] Well that's true yes. [speaker002:] And so if they er when normally there's only one reason. [Chris:] Yes, I think whenever one makes judgment about therapy being better or worse you have to say er on what criteria and there are certainly certain criteria on which group therapy would do better for certain problems like us making feel people feel better if they had a symptom or problem which erm make them feel worse because, because they felt isolated from the community, so it means other people who have got the same problem makes you feel better erm and er certainly suggestion therapy can produce dramatic results especially in the short run.... Th the problem with suggestion therapy whether it be hypnosis or group therapy is it doesn't tend to last in the longer run after the person stopped going to the group or they haven't seen the... the er hypnotist for reinforcement. There's a very good example of that some years ago er in one of these groups I had erm a student had a severe stutter problem and he said that he had hypnosis and for two years he was fine, he had no stutter and suddenly one day under stress it came back an and ever since erm then he was having some other kind of treatment I think, but er but that's typical. I in the shorter run erm often suggestion therapy will work, but seldom in the long run and er then it needs reinforcement you need to go back and have more. So, but there is something to be said for it I'm certainly not running it down, what I am saying is you can't. Certain people have claimed that in group psychoanalysis and that I think is fraudulent, because they are not doing analysis they're doing something different and erm I think it is something described I think very well in this book, although of course as we said this was written erm... er... group therapy.... Okay any other points that people want to raise about this?... There's one paradox here that I think can confuse people and we ought to talk about a little bit... and that is the libidinal aspect. Again Joy mentioned it, because of course it's important, you'd expect in a, in a Freudian theory. The libidinal aspect of, of group membership, now how does that work? What happens to people's libido in a group? Cos this is important and it can be confusing... and, and there is t er there is a little of a paradox in here, which will come out even more clearly next week, oh no the week after. The week after when Marie-Anne does civilization and. Can anybody see the... the paradox I'm getting at when we talk about the libido in the group?... Well let me put it this way er it's the two's company three's a crowd problem. T to what am I? Two's company, three's a crowd?... I think if you had asked Freud what's the minimum number numerically for one of, for the Bond Freud Crowds, Freud would have thought for a bit and I think he would have said three.... He certainly wouldn't have said two, why not?... Why is two company and three a crowd?... [speaker002:] They can't be a [Chris:] Er... well er perhaps not, but what's the, I mean what's the context in wh wh which people quote that saying? [speaker002:] left out and two would interact and [Chris:] Right, right but the two's company and three's a crowd idea is that if you've got er two people, they, they may have er some libidinal interest in each other and they may have a couple, but a third person is, is just a complication. It it's, it's the eternal triangle they're the stuff of which novels and soap operas are made. What wo what would they do without the eternal triangle? Virtually none one suspects, so ca can you see the problem here? The problem is... Freud believes in the libido, the libido erm directs you towards another person for gratification and that makes a couple and this can be very gratifying as well. So how on earth can there be a libidinal dimension in a group or a crowd whereas we've already said the minimum number is three and actual number of course is vastly greater. So how can there possibly be a libidinal dimension to crowds if crowds are... just erm many more extra points in the eternal triangle? How does Freud get or to refer to Marie-Anne's erm subject couple weeks, how could Freud think that libido was involved in groups when he says in the book that she's gonna tell us about tha that society and civilization erm is in conflict with indiv wi with, with individual's erm... libidinal self-interest,th th their personal libidinal desires. Right, now how does that come about? Could you, could you expand that a little bit Duncan? How does the libido of the individual interact because Freud certainly thinks it does? [Duncan:] some form of identity group demands of the group. [Chris:] That's certainly true. [Duncan:] sorry. [Chris:] Go on. [Duncan:] Isn't it that the unconscious and the ego comes through [Chris:] Yes. Right that tends to happen too. [Duncan:] ... So you're [Chris:] So we we expect the libido if anything to be erm... to be more evident in a group.... What kind of libido are we talking about?... Because here I think we see one of the chief reasons why... Freud adopted the term libido and why when we talked about libido through last term I said we would see that there were some very good reasons in Freud's erm application of his ideas to society for having this libido and that now we've come to it, what... what kind of libido are Dean and Duncan talking about?... Because I think we have to make distinctions here between different types of libido. What kind of libido Duncan is involved in the kind of thing we're talking about? Well it's to do with ego ideal. What kind of libido would you think would be involved with the ego ideal?... Well, er wouldn't it be narcissism? The idea of love directed towards one's own self is specifically towards one's own ego. You will recall that when we talked about the libido theory, I said that there were erm different... one of the reasons why Freud had to introduce the libido theory was he wanted to get away from the narrow biological reproductive concept of sex to do with genitals and reproduction which is of course he'd want to expand it to include psychological never seen before er or never seen before so clearly, such as erm love of the self and, and this he gave the name narcissism, well he didn't actually, somebody else invented it not long before and he took it over very quickly. Er narcissism and narcissism, narcissistic libido is, is, is that part of libido which is concerned with the ego and it is this aspect of the libido especially which is involved in a group, because as I think erm somebody said over here when developing this point, this leads to for example a group narcissism. What do I mean by group narcissism? That's right. That's right. I mean erm... you know erm... when I go to the London Group erm we all know that erm actually er there's a kind of, there's an inner feeling you know well we've got the right computers, we, we're the you know, we, we believe computing and we, we're very sorry you know we're erm... we may not actively despise them, but we, we're sorry that they have to bother with such an awful operating system and everything else. So there's a kind of feeling, and this happens in all groups doesn't it that, that a group to which one's [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] which one identifies, there's a kind of feeling erm you know, we're, we're the members and there's something special about us and er at the best we're sorry for the non-members, we'd like to have more of them and so we might proselytize and preach the gospel, you know you know throw away your idioms, become or in the worst possible way we might be an exclusive group and say we are, we are erm special, we are we, we know the truth and everybody else is infidels and you know they should be killed or driven out or... or in some ways discriminated against because they're wrong and we're right. Because we're right we're... we, we're, we're better people as a result, so th th there's a tendency just as in individuals can get proud and even arrogant and self-satisfied, so does the tendency for groups to get proud, arrogant and self-satisfied because and... what fuels this group erm feeling is narcissism. It's not the heterosexual... strand of the libido because there of course there is a problem. As far as heterosexual object libido is concerned, three is a crowd and two is ideal. Two's company, three's a crowd, but when you're talking about this generalized and more desexualized supplemented narcissistic libido to do with ego, then of course three is not a crowd in fact three erm is, is, er is the... is er just as easy to accommodate as three thousand or three million, because it's, it can be channelled into the group. However, how does that come about, I mean if supposing you were a, a member of a very large group like the Catholic Church getting on to a billion people say, well you can't possibly... identify with a billion other people you can't meet them in one lifetime let alone ties with them, so how does, how does narcissistic libido unify the members of vast groups like the Catholic Church? How does it actually come about, because you couldn't meet the majority of [speaker002:] [cough] in a lifetime. Everyone can [Chris:] Right. [speaker002:] shared value. [Chris:] The, as, as, as, as, as you both say the, the narcissistic... libido of the individual is concerned... initially with their own ego.... The, the group usually has a leader or symbols which represent its aspirations like the statue of the Virgin Mary or, or Golden Churches or something to which act as representatives or icons for the aspirations, the ideals of the individual's ego and every member of the group shares those, that leader or those icons or those ideals and consequently the group is unified by a kind of sentry petal flow of individual narcissistic libido towards the centre, towards the leader and that makes them more identifiable with each other. So that the erm... we really are again and this is what this diagram in Freud's book is supposed to illustrate that the, the erm... every... every individual ego has its own ego ideal and objects external objects like erm... say the Pope can become the focus of this erm individualistic narcissistic libido because every individual identifies the Pope with their own ego ideal. So every Catholic feels an identification with every other Catholic because they've got a considerable aerial overlap in their, in their ego ideals and er narcissistic libido is directed towards the central focus. So it's not as, it, it's erm uniformly spread everywhere in the first place, it's directed first at the focus and then when you meet another person whom you realize has the same ego ideal, then you identify them, with them by a kind of secondary erm secondary identification. [Oliver:] What about [Chris:] Well. [Heather:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Well, well his parents I mean the extreme Protestants are, are on the rise I mean in South America you know I mean the world's largest Pentecostal Churches are in Lima and Peru and millions are now becoming erm born-again Christians in South America. Erm so erm but of course I mean t to make the point because it doesn't really contradict what you're saying Heather because of course the rather more extreme kinds of Protestant Sects that do emphasise for example erm... er narrow dogmatic teaching much more so you could say that erm and I think this would perhaps be the answer to, to Oliver's point to some extent because it goes back to Dean's original point that erm here we're we we're talking about a general theory of groups, but of course some groups can be more groupie than others. Some groups can be more individualistic where the individual identifies less strongly, there are fewer icons, there's less erm dogmatic er certainty about doctrine and so on, so more room for an individual variation and those groups will be relatively er looser and there would be less identification of the individual with the leader or the leading principals. Other groups however, possibly smaller ones or more erm... or, or more er or ones that are kind of more fired up with er,wi wi with with feelings of group membership, you find the opposite, you find stronger identifications, more emphasis on leaders and consequently followers. So, so what we're talking, we're not saying you know there are groups and there're individuals and there's a gap in between, what we're saying is there's a kind of continuum from very groupie groups where the individual is, is practically hypnotized by the, by, by, by, by the group to erm more or less complete individualism where individuals belong to, to emotional groups that are very, very weak and where identification with the with the sentries is pretty... pretty minimal.... erm you know like for instance I mean erm I mean I suppose I feel British but I mean I don't feel I have any very strong identification with... with other British people because there are so many other people in the world speak English and erm often people from other countries who in many ways you identify with them more. So, but still I suppose I have some residual identification with, with my own ethnic national group. it's not one that will inspire me with erm... with, with great kind of nationalistic fervour as might have happened in the past... when, when you look at nationalistic movements, so erm presumably we're looking at a range of behaviour which goes from extreme fanatical group membership to relatively weak identification with a group but really doesn't to anything else but saying you know if you ask me what I'll say I was British. Well that doesn't mean very much. Does that answer your question? So we know, we should and remember of course that in the book Freud chooses two examples as Joy told me the church and the army... and these are just examples and of course Freud chooses them partly because they're very big groups so they in some ways they er exemplify the principles he's talking about because clearly in a small group like this you could say well look, what is going on is really I mean we all have, we all know each other and it's a face-to-face group and really what happens here is an of the dynamics group and I think it is actually. For example one notices over many years of you know having teaching I must have taught hundreds now in different class groups, can't help noticing that although you're the same, subject is the same, the syllabus is the same, the reading list is the same, the room is the same, the time of day may be the same, but the groups are completely different. Some classes erm go with a buzz and everybody gets a lot out of it you think you know oh that was that was worthwhile, we achieved something. Other classes struggle all the time, to get anything done you feel you know why are we having this class, we're not making erm it's not making a lot of educational sense and one comes to the conclusion... after many years of bitter experience that it personal dynamics, it depends on who's in the group and some groups erm this one successful and some groups which I won't mention are relatively unsuccessful and one feels okay that's because of the inter-personal, it's who's in the group and how they interact with each other and try as one might, I suppose I play th the leading role in this group [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] try as one might, one can't change the group, but, but clearly these are not th the examples that Freud chooses are really big groups where the kind of factors he's talking about comes through very clearly because y y you cannot explain what happens in the Catholic Church or an army. so he chooses the examples he does to illustrate his, his theory and of course he's chosen inevitably good examples. Well, yes sorry perhaps I myself. I meant not in the same way. [speaker002:] at the end of the day there must be something [Chris:] Oh I'm sure that's true. Yes now what I meant was that, that erm in a group like this, the... the th th the leader or the leadership role may be relatively minimal and the individualism of the members may be relevant, but I hope it was cos I... I think it's a mistake for class in groups and that so one would hope in this kind of group, the individual variation would be so important that these kind of group phenomena that Freud is talking about in this book but clearly in other groups they're... they're more important, partly because you can never organize a group by kind of having a meeting with everybody. I mean you couldn't have a meeting with the whole Catholic Church for example to decide on doctrine. So what happens of course in an institution like that is the... the leaders define the doctrine congregation for the doctrine of the faith, lays down the doctrine of the faith and then the believers are then obliged to believe it. The followers a a are obliged to believe it and so the faith, the creed of the Catholic Church then becomes an article of membership and if you don't subscribe to the creed, then this has implications for your standing in the group and you can for example be persecuted and Catholics not believing, whereas in a group like this, I don't think we need a creed, we certainly wouldn't persecute anybody because we didn't believe a particular thing, because we can all negotiate our personal relations face- to-face. Do you see, that's what I meant by it. [speaker002:] Yeah, this is just [Chris:] Mm. Oh, it does, oh it does yes. Oh, this, this is a very important book of course and one of the, one of the astonishing things is the way totally ignored and if you look through even people who write about psychoanalyses and the social sciences and there's a lot of them, this book is hardly ever mentioned... and I, I normally nowadays routinely look for it in the, in the references and index an and many books th that purport to talk about groups and sociology is never mentioned I think, and those that do don't ever seem to understand what it says. An astonishing fact. Well look folks we'll have to stop now it's gone eleven and I have to give a lecture Joy, er that was an excellent er summary, well done. As I said I'll be talking about this in the next couple of weeks in the lectures and I hope to cover various things we didn't have time to touch on. Next week we're being entertained by Heather. Now. Oh, first thing is last week's summary. Let me pass that round. Just pass that round, that's last week's summary. Today's lecture is on erm... what you might call female interest in sex and in particular in... in the concept of erm female choice... and I was struck er this morning by looking at Nature. Nature of course as you know is the world's leading science journal... and er I have to read Nature every week. The reason why of course and I take this as a matter of pride because er not only am I, I think probably the only member of the L S E as published in Nature recently, but erm... er the other thing I take pride in is the fact that erm one really can't ignore it, because all the time stuff is being published in the world's leading science journal which is directly relevant to this course and how many other courses are in L S E are like that? For example a couple of weeks ago there was a thing on tit for tat and this week there's a fascinating thing on snakes and female sexuality which erm illustrates er some of the points I'll be, I'll, I'll be making and although as Sue rightly says erm, most of the articles in Nature are rather technical and difficult to understand if you're not a specialist... they do make concessions to the rest of us by publishing very often erm summaries er in the first part of the journal erm and there is one on this and er I can recommend that. In fact I'll, I'll Xerox it and pass it round if people are interested. [Sue:] I also find [Chris:] Yeah. Yeah. Alright, I, I borrowed this one from the Senior Common Room. But it is in the library, it's in the library erm every week, so m my, you know you can get it down the... down the library. Oh no, I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend anything to. I mean it's far too technical an and I, I, I wouldn't either, but erm it's er as I said, it's just er it was struck me as coincidentally since I was talking about this, this today. Okay now you remember I said that the key concept in our modern understanding of sex and sexual behaviour. One of the virtues of parental investment er theory I would say is that er it's particularly sensitive to female interests in, in... in sexuality and nobody who knows me or has read er my works would, could possibly suspect me here of fashionable feminist prejudices er so I don't say this because I think this is what people like to hear, but because I happen to think it's true, I'm afraid I'm one of these old-fashioned and you may think stupid people who believe that you should er say things cos you think they're true, not because you think er it's what you think want w want to hear or if you say it, you'll be accused of sexual harassment by a lecturer as I was last year. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Erm... the daring to... the daring to say things which I did, did think were true, but I knew were true because many of them were facts. Erm... the reason why parental investment theory is... is particularly sensitive to, to the female point of view of course is as we've seen one of the fundamental consequence of anisogamy is the fact that females normally invest more in offspring than do males, whereas males concentrate on mating success normally, females normally concentrate on erm parental, in individual offspring. So the divorce of sex from reproduction which is erm a very common and even fashionable view in the later twentieth century and of course is one very much facilitated by modern birth control technology and things like that... this, this divorce of sex and reproduction is in a way you could say a characteristically male way of looking at things if the male's er contribution to offspring doesn't go much further than the initial fertilization. For males sex may be very important, but for females reproduction may be, may be more significant if it involves as it does in the case of all mammals and certainly human beings, considerable parental investment on the part of the mother. So I think that er to put parental investment theory centre stage is more reliable and better than the rather old-fashioned biological approach which in talking about sex emphasise things like sex chromosomes and hormones, so that a sex chromosome in a mammal for instance was something that a male had but a female didn't and this gave rise to hormonal effects like those of testosterone erm which are thought to be very important. Well these things may er describe erm... sexual behaviour and how to facilitate it, but they can't explain it and nor are they really fundamental, because after all okay in mammals males may be the sex defined by the X chromosome, but in birds it's the other way round in birds it's the female chromosome and all, in other words, all bird embryos start, start out as male and differentiate into females if they're going to, whereas in mammals all embryos start out as female and differentiate into males, in so far as those terms have any sense. So it seems to me that parental investment erm theory is, is much better because not only is it universally applicable, it also explains why the sexes a are, are the way they are in ultimate evolutionary terms and that talk about hormones and sex chromosomes never can do.... Now if we took this view about parental investment theory, it would immediately erm... concentrate our attention if we're talking about human beings as we are in this course on er... one... critical factor which er is astonishingly important... and that is er body fat. Now you may say well why, why does body fat matter er for female reproductive success and the answer to that if you think about it is pretty easy. A female mammal is if you like erm the egg... in... in other classes of higher animals a female lays an egg, the egg contains all the nutrients or possibly incubated. In the case of a mammal, the egg is retained within the body so the mother's body is effectively another part of the egg providing it through the placenta with nutrients and so on. So the state of the mother's body is critical for the reproductive success of any implanted egg. This probably explains why menarche the age of which er menstruation begins... menarche er why the age of menarche has dropped progressively... in the last century from about fifteen and a half to about twelve and a half er today. The reason appearing to be that menarche is weight-triggered and in particular is turned on by er body weight reaching erm... a certain proportion I think it's about eighteen percent of weight erm... erm... represented by body fat triggers, triggers menarche. There is some evidence Sorry, twenty four percent, twenty four percent body weight erm about a quarter in other words when, when a young woman's body is about one quarter fat, she can start menstruating for obvious reasons. There is some residual evidence that daylight length may be a factor and that the invention of electric light has also lowered the age of menarche but this effect is not erm absolutely clear and there's some controversy about it. Most people think if it, if it's, if it's real at all it's er it's much less important than weight. Of course few quantitative studies have been done of this, but those that we have show pretty unmistakable results. A study of the Atchee hunter gatherers in Paraguay... show that a woman's body weight was erm directly related to her reproductive success as was her age of menarche in other words the younger... the younger menarche and the heavier the woman, the greater her lifetime reproductive success and this again er shouldn't surprise us.... Another one of the most er interesting bits of evidence about this is the rate of fraternal twinning. Now as you know, there are two types of twins tha that people can have. You can have fraternal twins, in which case the relatedness is a half and the twins although they were born together result from two def separate eggs, they were separately fertilized. So in other words they were just like any other sibling, just happens to be they were erm conceived at the same time and er developed in the womb together. Identical twins have relatedness R equals one genetic identical every gene in one is represented in the other and they result from a split in a fertilized egg which splits into two and then each develops as if it were,wer were a separate egg. Now the rate of identical twinning erm is remarkably constant which suggests that it, whatever causes it is relatively independent of other factors. Perhaps it's erm some kind of mistake in the way erm cells divide after they've been fertilized, I don't know, but this is not true of fraternal twinning. Studies in Europe for instance show that er in populations which experienced starvation during World War Two such as the Netherlands, the rate of fraternal twinning dropped dramatically during the war, but then recovered to its pre-war level after the war, and this strongly suggests that the rate of fraternal twinning was related to how much food women were eating, and when they were starved they were less likely to two eggs than when they were fell fed. This is an affect well known in some domesticated animals like sheep, it's well known that if sheep are, if, if, if, if ewes are well fed just before they mate, they're much more likely to er to twin than if they're er not given extra food supplement and nowadays erm... farmers wh wh who, who breed sheep for lambing er frequently feed, feed ewes a special diet just before er conception for that very reason, the rate of twinning increases. So this again is quite interesting evidence for er... for the importance of, of body fat for female reproductive success. Another interesting erm angle on this is, is anorexia nervosa.... Anorexia is a relatively modern illness er the first descriptions of it are found in the nineteenth century and today it's er by no means an uncommon illness in er mainly in young women, very occasionally in men, but, but er y it's more or less safe to say it's er it's a disease of er women and almost always younger women. It's hardly ever reported in the Third World and er... taking the facts that we've just been talking about into account, it would be tempting to see anorexia as related to conflicts about the beginning of a young woman's reproductive life because what normally happens is, and has certainly happened in the only case of this that occurred in my family, the young woman in question lost so much weight that she stopped cycling and in fact erm puberty changes went into reverse, she actually regressed, she started puberty and er she had this anorexia problem and she stopped cycling and, and all her body changes reversed, she went back to... to pre-puberty again erm because of oh no, oh no it didn't, she lost her body hair and stuff yeah, er her, her, her hormonal changes. Mind you, she was starving herself to the point of endangering her life and had to be hospitalized, but er oh no, her hormon her hormon well her hormonal changes went into reverse, they absolutely did. Erm, so it's tempting to see er anorexia as part of this whole picture, because it usually happens in younger women usually at the beginning of their reproductive careers and there is usually, or so therapists report, conflict usually with parents related to things like career, er possible choice of marriage partner which erm create conflict about the young, about the young woman's er future reproductive life. So it would be erm... it would seem natural to think that anorexia fits into this picture somewhere. Admittedly the details may be complicated, but erm... it, it certainly seems that these, our knowledge about fat and reproductive success may erm throw some light on this. In other words fat issue it's probably an issue.... Now erm... all this really goes back to eighteen seventy one. As we know er Darwin published his great work in eighteen fifty nine cos he had to, he really didn't want to but was forced, but in eighteen seventy one he published another important book called the Descent of Man or Evolution in Relation to Sex and in this book Darwin established a principle, which a which at the time he was widely criticized and ridiculed and this was the principle of female choice.... Essentially what Darwin realized was that sexual dimorphism, particularly where it makes the male spectacularly different from female is not always the outcome of inter-male conflict, very often it is, we saw examples of the films of stags, of erm elephant seals, those kinds of animals where the dimorphic differences appear to be the result of inter-male conflict, for instance elephant seals are seven times heavier, the males are seven times heavier than the females on average because sheer weight is what wins those astonishing battles they have on the beaches when they, they kind of lunge at each other. They have these enormous canine teeth again stabbing each other and the thick blubber round the neck again as a defence... and if the canines go in they go into the blubber and not to arteries and stuff like that. So a modern sexual dimorphism is explicable in terms of erm inter-male er conflict and it may be in the case of human beings er most of them are, for example the larger body weight of males that we saw when we looked at sexual dimorphism in human beings is probably explicable erm in terms of inter-male conflict like it is in chimpanzees.... Er my guess is that beards may be the same. I don't know what you think about this, but what occurs to me is this, supposing you had to kill somebody with your bare hands, how would you do it? suggestion. You gotta kill me. The obvious thing is to strangle okay? Erm we haven't got anybody here with a beard so we can't demonstrate and anyway it would be a dangerous experiment if we did, but supposing you tried to strangle me and I've got a big beard you know, a kind of Karl Marx style beard [LAUGHTER] well a big beard, er you get your hands round my neck and what can I do? I can do that and if I pull my beard I'm gonna loosen your grip. So my suggestion and this is only a suggestion, the beards which in the past have been interpreted as a kind of erm epigrammatic signal, in other words a kind of erm sign on the face of the male as they're deceived, my guess is that,th that beards may actually have evolved to protect the throat because erm the critical thing in, in killing somebody is to block the, the windpipe and that's and in fact even, even lions do this, you saw in the film when a lion kills an antelope or something, he doesn't go to all the trouble of making horrible gashes, he grabs the, the windpipe and holds on until the antelope or whatever it is is just er Most predators do. It, it Yeah. Yeah. Well perhaps they do that too. Perhaps they do that too unless the canines go each side of the when they squeeze the windpipe. Anyway of course, actually while you mention canine teeth Sue, it's worth pointing out that canine teeth are usually for use, use on other males. Er it's true that hunting animals like for instance er female cats, the cat family, lionesses and we know lionesses do most of the hunting, not the males that do the hunting normally, they have canine teeth. However the males have got bigger canine teeth and certainly in most mammals er for instance horses, males have big bigger canine teeth most primates. Chimpanzees for instance have enormous canine teeth, but the males have them and not the females, so the idea here is that normally a big canine tooth, a sexually dimorphic canine tooth is probably related to inter-male conflict, rather than to killing and, and whether, how that affects your er what you say about the spacing I'm not sure, but certainly it would be a safe... erm... generalization to say normally big canines are an aspect of sexual dimorphism and in mammals are very common. So what was I saying? Oh yes, erm perhaps beards are more to do wi with, with inter-male conflict than anything er and most of the other characteristics are. Erm... the one element in human... sexual dimorphism if you can call it that, strictly speaking it isn't, its primary sex difference is the size of the human penis. Nobody knows why it's er it's as big as it is, female choice is a possibility, only a possibility, but er it's hard to know otherwise why, why it is that way. Erm... now... it, it's interesting to point out that... female choice... and of course one of the best examples of that is birds where the female chooses... not, you saw it on the film, but this is just a reminder. Where the female chooses not so much the male as what the male's got is erm... female choice as I said when Darwin suggested was widely ridiculed, partly because i it, it contradicted Victorian prejudices. People said things like for instance well females aren't intelligent enough to make choices and er which is, which is clearly pretty silly, and er there was also I think and the uncomfortable erm... prospect that females could in some way or another control the evolution in males which I don't think it appealed to the Victorians either and in fact many social Darwinists like Edward Westermark for example rejected the whole concept of sexual selection as Darwin called it the female choice, because it didn't promote survival of the fittest. Erm... peacocks' tails may make them beautiful and more... reproductively successful with peahens, but they don't make them fitter in terms of erm life expectancy. On the contrary peacocks don't live long in the wild because of those enormous tails make them easy to catch for predators. So if peacocks' er fitness as understood by social Darwinists is, is, is, is, is reduced, but erm... and this was one of the reasons why they, why they liked the idea of erm female choice and er the call, so called sexual selection. The... the consequence of course you want to say something? No they don't erect them when a, when a predator comes along, they just run or fly if they can. Sometimes there are displays that are erm,b but like erm the lizards that have frills, but I think you find them in both sexes... because you see if it's to scare off a predator, why doesn't the female have them? And my guess is the peahen normally would. I don't know about the frilled lizard. Er Oh yes, you get that, you get that kind of mimicry, but again you'd expect it in, in, in both sexes I should think, unless it just happens that males for example normally are bigger and then it's taken on a, a secondary characteristic which is a possibility. I honestly don't know the answer to that. Okay, erm so the consequence of this and as I said this is not fashionable feminism this is, this is, this is real science. That the consequence of this is that we can no longer take the view of females as being passive victims of male advances. Often it looks as if they are, erm... but they don't need to be. Here's a... here's an example of this in book. This is a stag. Now you might think well stags have harem groups and they've got these enormous antlers and they could bully and er I mean a harem group looks kind of fascist kind of social structure you know when a male dominates female, but in fact field observations of how stags actually deal with their females show that they're very tender erm towards them and they have to have the cooperation of the female in order to mount. In fact if you think about it, erm any quadruped or mammal can easily stop a male mounting. You don't often see photos of this I've only ever found one, here's one, or I did find one. This is un the top, the top one, well and the bottom one, unsuccessful mounting attempts by male jackals, sorry hyenas, male hyenas on, on a female. The female erm... just doesn't want to know. In fact this is more interesting than you may think... because female hyenas have a pseudo-penis, they have, they have a pseudo-scrotum and a pseudo-penis, reasons which aren't fully understood and in order to mate, the male has to insert his real penis into the female pseudo-penis in order to reach her... her genital and it's a bit complicated. So if the female doesn't want it and this one clearly doesn't, she just sits down and if she sits on her pseudo-penis, there's no way the male is ever gonna get into her, but in fact this is true er in, in general terms of er if you think about it a, a female quadrupedal mammal... I mean it looks like male domination, the male mounts and it looks as if she has to submit but she doesn't. All she has to do is to walk away, he can't walk cos his fore legs are on her back back legs are on the ground. If she moves forward, there's no way that he's gonna get anywhere with her. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] I remember making this point a couple of years ago, yeah I made this point last year and I showed these pictures, I spent about twenty minutes on it, the following week I was, I was libelously accused and it was a libel, it was a serious libel erm er that I, that I said that females always had to submit erm... I was very angry about that. Pity it wasn't in the national newspapers because my lawyer said I could have retired on the proceeds. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] laugh, unfortunately you can't erm can't erm... when I was giving this similar lecture two or three years ago, erm there was er a student in the class she put up her hand she said yes, she said that's absolutely right she said, what you're saying about the female doesn't have to submit she said I used to work as a, as a stable maid at Newmarket at a stud farm and she said er you've gotta have five people for er er to cover a mare. You have one on each leg erm and one erm on the bridle and apparently they use special tools that er hobble the mare and stop her moving, so she hasn't got any choice and when they lead the stallion in, they got these five guys there erm with these various tools and they make, hold the mare still to make sure the stallion can mount, because apparently very often the mares won't have it and th they kick or they walk away. Yeah, yeah, but remember that these, these are expensive race horses you see, this is er Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you see the point I'm making that, that in mammals it's easy to get the impression that, that you know er particularly in, in, in, in er harem-type mammals like, like, like erm stags, that the males mount and females submit, they don't. Not only of course u u unfortunately of course and Sue, Sue mentions there are tragic exceptions to this and one tragic exception i is human beings because unfortunately it is possible for a male human being to force er a female at intercourse because we tend to do it lying down and males are bigger and stronger. And hands er I don't think rape could happen if we were quadrupedal, much more difficult. Erm... so quite apart from fro from that, this approach to the whole question concentrating on parental investment and female choice would not only make us sensitive to... to female choice in the sense of either submitting to a male or not... but secondly it would make us er wonder what happened even after a female had mated and we could predict couldn't we that females ought to be discriminating abou about the subsequent fate of any fertilized erm... zygote and indeed there's plenty of evidence to show that human females highly discriminated and far from passive even after they've been fertilized. For example, in er twenty five erm... percent of cases er of infertility in women as reported by infertility clinics there's an antibody reaction to sperm. In other words a woman's immune system is er able to deploy erm er antibodies against a, a, a, against sperm. In ten to fifteen percent of fertilized zygotes there will be no implantation and er forty two percent that do implant will fail to cycle and will be re-absorbed again. So it's a very high proportion we're talking about. er in other words what I'm saying is that erm... a woman doesn't have to accept a fertilized er egg once it's been fertilized. Er twenty eight percent for instance of all embryos er will be spontaneously aborted and in England and Wales mothers of large families, which I think was defined as more than six children, er had more spontaneous abortions than others. In sixty percent of spontaneous abortions the foetuses are normal and thirty percent in the first trimester show gross chromosomal abnormalities. In other words, it looks as if mothers erm actively discriminate against er embryos which are not normal and are not gonna develop into... into... in in into er offspring who will survive. Yeah, oh yes, yes, but the point is that the mother knows it's she's not... her reproductive system is not a passive erm... I mean you see how it looks in Yes, exactly, look exactly. I in a mammal it looks as if that the mother's body i is, is an oven, and once you've put the bun in, it's gonna rise it's not like that. The point I'm making is that in fact erm a woman's reproductive system discriminates actively. One of the most astonishing pieces of evidence for this comes from a study of two hundred and sixty eight female prisoners in the U S... these are all convicted criminals. They had three hundred and seventy three live children between them and on average they should of had twenty seven children with birth defects if they'd been the same as the rest of the population, the non-criminal, non-prison erm erm erm non-prison population. In fact they had none at all. However their entire spontaneous miscarriage. So the implication of that study and it's a rather astonishing one, although it fits exactly with, with the argument we're developing is that because these, these women were living in very difficult circumstances, in prison, they were even more discriminating about the offspring they were actually and they didn't carry a single one to term that had a birth defect. So the idea is that the more difficult the... the situation the mother finds herself is in the more likely she is to spontaneously abort and the more likely any... retained er foetus is to be normal an and, and to, and not to have any defects. Another example of that for instance, and this is something we'll, we'll have to wait a full explanation of this we'll have to wait a little bit later itself. At least seventy three percent of all foetuses aborted in the first trimester are male. This suggests that er mothers discriminate against male offspring Seventy three percent. Seventy three percent in the first trimester, in other words the first three months are male. Now er let's just accept that as a fact as we go by erm it looks as if mothers not only discriminate against un un unfit offspring, but also against males. Why they discriminate against males must wait. [speaker002:] where do you get the [Chris:] No, no oh in the general population. [speaker002:] In the general [Chris:] This is the general population and as you will see this, this er patches on the whole issue of sex ratios and what is known as the Trivers Woolard effect and I'll explain that later cos it's so important. We have a separate thing on sex ratios and I'll explain why males are discriminated against in this, in this respect cos as we'll see there's a profound er reason why er this should happen. Finally, and this is a suggestion on my own, although actually I discovered afterwards it was also made by somebody else, erm... but it does seem in many ways er erm... an obvious interpretation, is this could be the background also to post-natal depression. Post-natal depression is a distressing phenomenon where women who have just given birth feel fed up, weepy, don't like the baby, don't want to be mothers, can't really take an interest in it. It's a very distressing erm syndrome for many women and er there's quite a lot of evidence that it's hormonally linked and most women suffer from it in one way or another. Some admittedly have it much worse than others, but nearly all women er seem to, seem to have it erm to some extent and one wonders why. Well, the Mexico City earthquake if you will recall some years ago, buried a maternity hospital on the day of the quake. All the mothers died at once. However fourteen days later they were still pulling out er live babies and they'd been in there in the rubble for fourteen days. They had nothing to drink, nothing to eat, they kind of hibernated and apparently they lapsed into a state of, of a kind of hibernation and inactivity, but they were still alive and they were alive when they, when they were pulled out fourteen days later. The reason probably is that human neonates, the newborn human beings have much more subcutaneous fat than any other primate. If you look at a new-born gorilla or chimpanzee they seem skinny little things compared with human babies. Human babies are usually fairly plump when they're born, they've got considerable subcutaneous fat. My... suggestion is that the evolution of subcutaneous fat in neonates and post-natal depression is an example of co-evolution and what has happened is mothers are programmed to be depressed for the first few days after birth because in primal conditions when remember this is where evolution set the parameters of human behaviour, in primal conditions it would probably pay a mother to test her new-born offspring to see if it could survive, because if it was defective or if it was sickly, or if there was some reason why that baby couldn't make it to adulthood and its own reproductive life, that mother should not invest in it, because that's her reproductive success. So it might pay a mother to wait for a few days and see what happened to the baby. A healthy baby might survive, and unhealthy one might not. Sue you're sceptical. [Sue:] I'm a bit worried about that ninety percent [Chris:] I see Yes. Yes, I heard that, I've heard that theory. My [Sue:] But it does happen in that way. [Chris:] Yeah it does happen in that way m my,m my explanation of that though is that it's true,i it could just be a hormonal side effect. It could just be that and of course it would be very naive to assume that evolution had adapted us always to be happy with everything. In fact if you think about it evolution might promote your reproductive success by making you vaguely unhappy most of the time, cos that might make you strive for more success. So it would certainly be naive to think that whenever people felt unhappy erm it was er was some kind of pathology and that, that evolution couldn't explain it, and it may just be that the women feel a bit fed up because of hormonal changes and it doesn't awfully much, it's just one of things you pay for being a mother. [Sue:] . [Chris:] Well not immediately no. and it's and it's certainly hormonally linked and at first of course a woman doesn't have milk, she has colostrum. [Sue:] Yes, not very much [Chris:] But you see my explanation may be that because of that erm the, the onset of post-natal depression is slightly postponed because erm the mother needs a signal from the baby or in her breasts signal that will then start changes in her breast tissue which will produce milk when the time comes. So she needs the baby to do that and at that point once her milk production schedule is under way as it were, at that point when, just before she's about to start giving them, then she should test the baby because that's the big energetic cost to her. The energetic cost is providing milk. She can have the colostrum anyway. Yeah, oh yes. Sure, oh I can imagine. Well it's just an idea [Sue:] yeah [Chris:] it's just an idea,i it may not be right [Sue:] nobody's [Chris:] I, I mean it may not be right, but it, I mean as I think you can see it has a kind of logic about it, erm and, and i it may be that it, it's not the right explanation, but... the very fact that erm we're suggesting it, I think shows that erm again it's naive to think that motherhood is a kind of er is a one-sided affair where you know mothers sacrifice themselves er for their offspring, because nature demands it. At the very least this theory about post-natal depressions shows it's not that simple, the mother has a self-interest as well as the offspring and our modern insight into parental investment theory shows us that we have to take every individual's self-interest seriously... we're not committing th the, the crude errors of group selectionism and saying you know mothers exist for the benefit of society to have children, they should put up with it. I mean the trouble with group selectionistic thinking is you, you completely discount the costs that some people pay for the benefits of others and so oh well, you know everybody benefits from mothers erm having children and sacrificing themselves to their offspring. Our modern parental investment individualistic view wouldn't allow you to make that error, instead you'd say you know you've gotta look at the costs and benefits of the mother too and perhaps there are benefits to mothers in actively testing as it were their offspring, erm rather than just passively er accepting that they're gonna have to be mothers and gonna have to get on with it and again you see, er I would er and this may have been the big mistake I made last year, er but again I stand by my er view on this and it's a perfectly defensible one, erm again I think those who say that abortion is unnatural and kind of erm offends against er you know nature, are wrong. I mean that the data on spontaneous abortion is so unmistakable that it seems to me that artificially induced abortions are just a continuation with modern technology of something women have always done anyway discriminate against their ab about their offspring, sometimes discriminating against them. So those who say arti artificial abortion is unnatural, are I think er on a, on, on, skating on very thin ice, because you could equally well argue that it was just a continuation of a natural trend. [speaker002:] If this doesn't happen it's almost like it's never happened any other way [Chris:] Yeah that's right yeah Yes. Yes, but you see the, the, yes an and that of course is a is i is a good one. As I said at the beginning I think one should be wary about using the word natural, because sometimes people use it you know to promote something you know like on advertising you know it's natural, must be good for you, but at the same time there are certain things that are natural that are very bad for you like death and if I were to say you know death is natural, nobody would think I was advocating suicide of course not. Well sorry, I, I just mentioned that in passing but Yeah Well er in general I would say that erm and this goes back to my earlier discussion o of, of the pleasure principle. It would seem that erm i it wasn't in the interests of one's ultimate reproductive success to be too easily satisfied too much of the time... because remember, it's a question of relative reproductive success an and the individual that gets that little extra is... is effectively gonna be, gonna be the one selected, so yes I would think that erm it's probably naive to think that natural selection would, would make you feel er satisfied and content all the time it would probably induce erm a state of mild chronic discontent which is I think what most people actually experience in life Yes [speaker002:] then you're less likely [Chris:] Right. Well possibly and less likely to enjoy it, I mean I've made a complete failure of my life, so I'm, I'm not and I never really enjoyed from the beginning I must say Well, well [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] if I'd been given the choice, erm you know if they'd said you know okay you're next, you going I'd have said no thanks, send somebody else, but er Well well perhaps not, erm... no my life was all a terrible mistake erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] i i i it was because of the doctor was too stupid to diagnose breast cancer when he saw it, urged my mother to have another baby told her it was a mastectomy erm er sorry erm sorry mastitis er and it would help if she had another baby and it was of course was actually cancer, it was a disaster. But there we are thus on such er tiny threads do entire lives hang.... Where did we get to before we got into this? Er oh yes abortion yes now coming back to the point about abortion. One of the, and this we'll get on to later when we talk about culture, the culture problem. It seems to me you see that it's, it's naive to think that there's a complete divorce between culture and technology like for instance abortion technology or birth control technology and nature. It seems to me what actually happens if you think about it is that, is that technology and culture builds on trends that already have a natural foundation. For example birth control, you see you could use the same argument, you could say oh the Catholics say birth control is unnatural and we know they have a whole position on that and yet the data on infertility shows that in fact most women generate antibodies to some sperm, so the, those datas suggest that actively discriminating against sperm on the part of the women is actually natural and all that is happening in modern birth control technology is that women are developing or building on a natural er foundation that is already there namely to be choosy about when they become pregnant and by whom. So and I would extend the same argument to abortion and I would say erm wh what happens in abortion admittedly erm an artificial abortion mean means that presumably a spontaneous abortion has hasn't happened, but a modern woman is using extra means that she has er at her disposal, probably to deal with extra problems which evolution originally could not foresee and ultimately her self-interest might be just as well served by having er induced the abortion ultimately as it would by erm... by not having but I mean this is just my personal view, and I don't Well yes, I think, I think their view is dominated by the old group selectionist or point that women are there to do their duty Yeah, that females are there to do their deed for the species or the race or whatever an and er and indeed I mean not so long ago you know in our own country I mean [speaker002:] I think it's a moral issue [Chris:] Yeah, oh it is a moral issue yeah. But the, the link between sex and reproduction is always likely to be more critical to a woman... So, so, so you see th th the point I'm making is these insights seem to me to be to have a kind of relevance to er women's experience of sex that is some ways greater than it is to male males can you know once they've done their fertilizing work, they're, they're really through as far as erm... as far as biology is concerned, not perhaps as far as social.... Were you gonna say something Sue? Oh I think so, I mean I, again I hope there aren't any Catholics in the audience who are offended by my remarks, but it's just my personal opinion, that yeah,th th you know,th th that is the case and at the least I mean whatever judgment one makes about this thing, I, I repeat what I said earlier about you gotta be terribly careful when using the word natural. I think it's unscientific, prejudicial and subjective to use it in a term that carries any kind of recommendation or erm disapprobation... and er... I think, I think one has to exercise caution in erm in the way you use tha tha that, that term, perhaps it's better not to, not to use it at all.... Well that makes a kind of convenient break actually, because what I wanted to start on er then was things which really perhaps ought to be postponed till, till next. What I wanna talk about next week is some er peculiarities of human female erm... adaptations such as concealed oestrus and menstrual synchronization. Just before we leave it, er to come back to the nature it's quite interesting, what these people found was they studied adders in I think Denmark and what they found was adders... adders copulate, but females can store semen for months. They counted the number of the copulations and they found the females were copulating much more than they needed in order to have, have offspring, so the big problem is why do female adders go to all the trouble of extra copulations with extra males when they could easily just make do with one or two and store the semen, and er the consequence as you could have predicted I think having attended my lectures, is that there does seem to be selection for erm sperm competition in male adders and the, the supposition seems to be that females are openly inciting male sperm competition, because they're mating with many more males than they need to and there doesn't seem to be another gain, they don't get provisioning from a male, they, all they get is sperm. The question is why [speaker002:] they enjoy sex [Chris:] Sorry what makes what more likely? [speaker002:] Sex.... The female [Chris:] Yes. [speaker002:] She's more likely to indulge [Chris:] Yes. [speaker002:] some behaviour like that. [Chris:] Yes it might, but the authors don't mention it actually as a possibility. Perhaps you ought to write in to Nature. [speaker002:] why females have orgasms. [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean if males have orgasms why shouldn't [Chris:] Well that's next week's Yeah, I agree with that, I, I agree with that. That's the Alexander Noonan theory we'll be talking about that. Yes, as you'll see I mean basically I think the erm... the reason is they just need to hang on until the male's finished, but we'll [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] we'll come to that next week.

[Chris:] Now I'm ha I'm handing round a summary of last week's lecture, which I hope will make more sense of it, and I have here, if anybody wants to borrow it, a Xerox of chapter three in Dorkins' book where he explains the Blind Watchmaker, and the manual for the disk. Now for copyright reasons, if you want to do the Blind Watchmaker, and I'd very much like you to, you've gotta borrow the disk from me, okay? So if you want it, my advice is take the Xerox or read the book. When you've read it come and ask me for the disk and I'll lend it to you. Erm, I've also got a rather smaller number of copies of ev Evolvematic notes if you wanna do Evolvematic, which I also demonstrated briefly. So if you wanna do Evolvematic I've got the notes for that [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Ya, explained in the handout that's coming round, okay? Thanks very much. So everybody got a handout did they? Right. I've also got more copies of the reading list which I've forgotten to bring with me but which I have got er upstairs and they're pinned to my door, if anybody needs another reading list, okay? But I forgot to bring those with me. Erm, let me remind you that at twelve o'clock today er I've booked S O one eight. Who's coming to S O one eight? Erm, for fun, you have a story and you're allowed to play [speaker002:] Alright then. [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Er, I'll tell you a story and I'll let you play a game. S O one eight. Okay, that's at twelve o'clock. Now what I want to do. Let me just explain, if you can't make it, or if you don't want to do it, I will er re-do it all again in the lecture next Friday at eleven. Next Friday at eleven I will go over it all again in the lecture. So er, however, I think you'll get much more out of it if you come today and do it first. If you do it first, you're gonna really understand what I'm going on about. But er in other words don't worry if you don't understand everything today when you do do it because we'll go over it next erm next week in the lecture and we'll be going over it in classes as well. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Some of you have done a prisoner's dilemma. Now if you've done a prisoner's dilemma you don't have to come. You've already done it okay? Now what I want to do in this lecture is to finish off the er introductory part of my, of my remarks and take us up to the point where beginning at twelve o'clock the real part, the real er core of this course begins when we start to look at social theory. Now, you'll recall that last week I was talking about Darwin's basic concept and I tried to explain it to you and to illustrate it to you. One of the big problems about erm teaching people what Darwin really said is that people's concept of evolution by natural selection is er contaminated by ideas which were actually originated, not by Darwin, but by the founder of British sociology, Herbert Spencer, whose dates were nineteen twenty to nineteen O three. As you'll see, a contemporary of Darwin who actually lived a little bit longer than he did. It was Spencer, and not Charles Darwin, who formulated the slogan, and that's all it is, survival of the fittest. It was not Darwin. Darwin erm was prevailed upon to use it and did so occasionally, but rather reluctantly, and rightly so. I say rightly so because Herbert Spencer's theory of evolution was fundamentally different from Darwin's, even though it's often confused with it. Herbert Spencer believed that there was a cosmic metaphysical er life force, if you like, and that evolution to higher, more complex and more integrated entities was a fundamental aspect of physics, biology and sociology. So he applied it erm more or less universally, not just to biological evolution and as Darwin had. He applied it to er the evolution of the cosmos as a whole and indeed to society, and believed that there was an ine inevitable onward and upward tendency of evolution from simple to complex, from isolated to unified, from erm stupid to more intelligent and so on. And standing on the pinnacle of course of this process of evolution erm er who were living in the most advanced societies and so on. There's a bust of Spencer in the library actually near the, opposite the erm, enquiry desk. Erm, you can go down and have a look at him there. Erm, well Spencer was a great great great bloke from many points of view but er unfortunately his ideas of er evolution were er mixed up as it were. Erm, one of the worst consequences of this was this awful phrase, survival of the fittest. Now, erm, what's wrong with this if you think about it, is that er it's hard to know what fitness and fittest means and although I'm now gonna spend about ten minutes talking about it, this will be the last time you'll hear me mention the word fitness, and I strongly advise you to do the same, for reasons which I will now n now explain. The trouble with the slogan, survival of the fittest, is that it gives the impression that evolution is all about creating a kind of super race, you know, like you saw in Nazi propaganda films, you know, blonde erm muscly beasts as it were, who were the th the sort of pinnacles of, of, of creation. The idea that evolution made organisms fitter in the sense of sporting sense of fitness or personal health. If you think about it, even in terms of sport, the whole concept of fitness is very very ambiguous. For example, erm, you... [tape jumps] sumo wrestling but would that make you fit for sprint racing? Of course it wouldn't. There's nobody in this room who couldn't win a sprint race against a sumo wrestler now, without any practice, even in stockinged feet you could do it. And yet I don't think there's anybody in this room who could last a minute in a ring with a sumo wrestler because obviously being fit for sumo wrestling is quite different from being fit for sprint running, you need a completely different physique. So even in terms of sporting meaning of fitness, it means completely different things in different contexts, and it certainly means er different things in terms of evolution. For example, er, males are fitter than females, er human males, in the sense of sporting achievement and this is why all sporting events that we rely on athletic prowess have to be segregated. You can't you know have Olympic sports for males and females because males would always win. Now, from Trivers and actually it would be better on the, on the proper thing wouldn't it? Let's try and get it on the board, which somebody has written on and I told them about that and asked them to clean it, but, bring a spray can of white paint next time. Erm, excess male mortality in humans as a function of age. Straight out of Trivers. As you can see, males die more than females throughout their, throughout their lifespan. That's more of that. Erm, here's a more detailed one. This is excess mortality of er rates for males and females age one to four for different years of the twentieth century. You can see that modern health care has made no difference, so you can't say it was anything to do with health care. In fact, if anything, little boys die more than little girls, even more now than they used to in the past, so it can't be anything to do with health care in case [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah, yeah, these are all straight out of Trivers. Erm, ratio of injuries to deaths er for all accidents as a function of age and sex, and again, you can see males have, males do a lot worse than females and I think there's one more, no sorry that's the lot. Erm, the facts are, and this is all in Trivers if you want to look up erm if you want to look it up in more detail, that males die more readily than females, from all causes that affect both sexes and some that even don't and you'd be astonished about, like for instance, you gather from John book on the myth of he heterosexual... [tape jumps] you're not allowed to buy in this country, you have to import it from the U S. It's a kind of censorship er on the part of the, part of the erm British publishing industry. But that book gave the astonishing statistic that in nineteen ninety, or nineteen eighty eight in the U S, more men died from breast cancer in the U S than women died from heterosexually contracted AIDS. I mean I didn't know that many men died of breast cancer but apparently they do. Not as many as women die of course but men even die of breast cancer. So the point I'm making to you is, is this. That if evolution was all about survival of the fittest, and if men are physically fitter in the sense of sporting prowess, which they unquestionable are, how has evolution produced the situation in which men have less life expectancy than women do from every point of view this far? Well, the answer to that of course is that what reduces erm male life expectancy is the very same thing that promotes their reproductive success, namely the direct and the indirect effects of testosterone. The male sex hormone testosterone er makes males bigger, er they've bigger bones, more muscle and so on, this gives them their sporting prowess and this is why of course er you've had all these... [tape jumps] better as a result. It produces that effect but it also makes er males more aggressive, more likely to take risks, which explains the accident figures, more likely to become involved in violence. It increases their resting metabolic rate by about five percent... [tape jumps] engine is running about one twentieth faster all the time, so perhaps this is why it wears out quicker. They've got less fat to insulate them from cold. They're generally bigger so when they fall they fall heavier. All this kind of thing. It all adds up to making males survive less well than females. However, the other consequence of it is it promotes their reproductive success and you can erm you can see that it is indeed an effect of testosterone if you... [tape jumps] castrated live longer than uncastrated males, and the earlier they're castrated, the longer they live. So they can expect to live more or less as long as any, as, as, as any woman does. So erm, if you think about it, you could say well okay, if the evolution is all about survival of the fittest and if fitness means surviving longer [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] why doesn't evolution select all males without testes? Hmm, the answer's obvious. A male without testes would live longer than a, than a male with them, undoubtedly, on average five to seven years longer, and erm generally be more healthy in terms of avoiding a lot of problems that, that they might have had through being male. But, of course, such a male could never reproduce and natural selection is ultimately a question of reproductive success, not of fitness, and in fact from now on you will find me avoiding the term fitness and instead talking about reproductive success, and you'll find that all the best literature, like Trivers' book, does the same thing. So from now on, let's forget the concept of fitness, which was Herbert Spencer's and not Darwin's. Let's just remember that it's wrong. Let's not use this awful slogan the survival of the fit fittest for all its social Darwinist terms. Because it's, it's completely wrong and misleading, and let's instead talk about the ultimate bottom line in evolution which is reproductive success. Natural selection selects for reproductive success. Of course, organisms have to survive and may need to be, to have erm fitness in the sporting sense in order to have reproductive success. This is certainly true. But, such survival or strength or erm or sporting prowess, will only be selected if i if it promotes ultimate reproductive success. That's its final aim as it were. It's a secondary matter by comparison with reproductive success. And that all, is all natural selection is. Ultimate natural selection, and this is Darwin's idea, not Spencer's. Darwin's idea was organisms which have heritable praise for superior reproductive success will, by definition, leave more offspring behind it. And that's basically all it boils down to. So the reason why males die more readily than females, and this is true for nature by the way, not just human levels, it's a practical universal effect that the males die more readily than females, that males are ultimately selected for reproductive success for erm survival as such. Everybody, everybody clear on that matter. Okay. One of Darwin's big problems and to some extent... [tape jumps] Darwin didn't know about genetics. He had ideas of his own but they were all wrong. He had a theory... [tape jumps] but it's wrong. Er, the truth about genetics was discovered more or less the same time Darwin put forward his theory in the early eighteen sixties by who was er erm... [tape jumps] carried out erm experiments in sweetpeas in the monastery garden and apparently sent a copy of his paper to Darwin. The, the letter was found among Darwin's effects unopened. Er, if only Darwin had opened it, Darwin would have saved himself an, all, load of old trouble. So the moral of this folks is, always open your junk mail, even if it's from Czechoslovakia. The only mail I get from Czechoslovakia is a junk mail actually, it's all about some wine club that I never want to belong to, but erm, if Darwin had only opened it, er don't throw it away, it could be, it could be th it could be the paper from that will save you infinite trouble. Well, erm, Darwin didn't know about genetics and the result of this was he had big problems. One of his big problems was, his theory, as we've seen, demanded genetic variation, and in order to, to provide the raw material for natural selection to work on, it demanded mutations. So Darwin had a concept of mutation which was a random genetic change. Erm,... [tape jumps] was, or so his critics said, that er his theory just would not work and the kind of argument that they produced against him, and poor old Darwin really didn't have an answer to this, and i it seemed a very very severe problem at the time was look, supposing that er I'm a mutant... [tape jumps] you might think. I'm a mutant, okay? L S E mutant lecturer gives lecture on mutations. Erm, it's kind of er you know, erm, it's a headline in the Sunday Sport or something. You see, I've never been in the Sunday Sport. My colleague has, and everybody rather, rather resents him for that. It's quite an achievement being in the Sunday Sport. Anyway,wh what'd I say? Yes, supposing I'm mutant and I have, I have a mutation which promotes my reproductive success one hundred percent. This is a very good mutation to have, okay? However, Darwin's critics said because of sexual reproduction I will only pass half that mutation on to my offspring because even then everybody knew that half of an organism's inheritance in genetic, in erm sexual reproduction comes from the other parent. So therefore they argued, my children will only get half the mutation, or half the effects of it, fifty percent increase in reproductive success. Their children will have half again, twenty five percent increase in reproductive success. And in only seven or eight generations, it's dropped to less than one percent. How, said his critics, can Darwin explain how a mutation, even if it's terribly advantageous to an organism, could ever get fixed as it were, in, in evolutionary terms. It looked as if blending inheritance, which at that time was believed in, was going to rule out the possibility that erm that such things er could occur. Well, of course, Darwin really had no answer to that and today we today we do because nowadays we know how evolution works, and erm what we now know that Darwin did not know, is that the genetic code is based, this is just an illustration from a standard book, you can find this in more or less any, any book. Er, this is actually from I think a scientific American one. We now know that erm that the genetics is based upon a an organic polymer called D N A, short for acid, a polymer is just the one molecule with repeating making long in principle. The, it consists of two strands which are made of sugar phosphates and which spiral round each other, and the strands are linked together like, like the, the rungs of a ladder by bases, and there are four bases, and and always pairs up with and er and always pairs up with so that the pattern of bases on one of these sugar phosphate strands always has a corresponding pattern on the other. What happens in er in genetics and how the genetic code is passed on, is that er this double strand of er this double strand is unzipped as it were, and it is just like a kind of zip fastener in that the teeth are the corresponding bases. It unzips, producing two separate strands which can then be copied, and this is basically how genetic information is passed on. Within a cell what happens is this... right... [tape jumps] a cell, what happens is that erm D N A is copied on to something called erm R N A, which is a kind of template, messenger R N A, it's a kind of copy and it's a single strand, corresponding to one of the strands on the original D N A with the same base structure. And it passes through elements in a cell called and as it passes through a the genetic information on the on the R N A D N A is read off and proteins are produced, so the is a kind of read head which reads out the genetic information. The information it reads is a code which has now been broken and this is the code. This is the genetic code here. Erm, bases are read three at a time. In fact er U here stands for, in D N A replaces er in R N A replaces in D N A. It's a little detail. What happens is, as the R N A strand goes through the the genetic code is read out three bases at a time and this is a, is a table which reproduces all the three base combinations you can have, and shows you which amino acids they code for. An amino acid is a chemical sub-unit of a protein, and ultimately everything that happens in a cell it produces some kind of protein, so you can see that erm the triplet or produces erm which is one of the, one of the er... [tape jumps] amino acids and so on and there are also punctuation marks U A A or U A G means stop, as does U G A, so when, when a R N A template running through a gets to a sequence which reads, where was it now, U A A it stops reading because it knows it's got to the end of the gene. That is the way er genetics works. As I said, this is just a very simple fine schematic description for you and you can look at the details anywhere. Erm, we don't really need to concern ourselves with it in detail, thank God, because genetics is a terribly complicated business and awfully technical and I don't understand a, a tenth of it, and we don't really need to. An excellent new book that's come out and you can easily buy because it's only six nine nine, and is... [tape jumps] book, erm kind of bedtime reading. It explains how the genetic code was broken, erm how they discovered about genes and so on, very up to date, scientifically completely correct and a good read. So, if you want to read up the background to all this, this is th one of the best books and one of the most recent... [tape jumps] on the reading list, it's on the reading list on the second page or something. Do you wanna ask a question, or are you just stretching? [speaker002:] No, no, stretching [Chris:] Stretching, okey-dokey. Erm... [tape jumps] ah right okay. So wh what I'm saying is erm, our modern view, the consequence of this is our modern view of evolution and I can't think of a better way to illustrate it than this, is that organisms ultimately are, can really been seen, rather like this. This is one of the simplest organisms that we know about. This is something called a T four bacteria. Bacteria is just Greek for and er this is a virus which infects the human gut bacterium. Y you have alo millions of these things in your gut and you need them to help you digest your food. If your bugs get sick a possibility is they're gonna get sick because they're being attacked by one of these things, and it's a virus, terribly small of course. It looks a bit like er the lunar module that landed on the moon. It has a, a, a, a head which is a kind of protein capsule, inside which the D N A is curled up. There's er a collar and a what they call a which is a protein tube and then it has various spikes at the end that make it stick on to the outside of the bacteria. And what happens is, they float around and when they come in contact with a bacterium, they stick into the wall and the D N A tube is inserted through the bacterial wall into the psychoplasm of the bacteria, and the D N A is just pumped into it as if from a hypodermic syringe. Inside the bacterium the D N A of the erm... [tape jumps] C of the T four bacteria then starts hijacks the cellulum material, like the you saw before, in the cell, and instead of making the things that the cell wants to make, it starts to make bits of the of the T four bacteria. The head is made, erm, the tail, all the bits are made and eventually they, they all stick together like a kind of Lego, and the result is a new bacteria is made and this goes on until eventually the cell, there are so many inside the cell, that erm the cell just ruptures, when there're about two hundred or so, the cell is now bulging with T four bacteria, it ruptures and releases a whole blob of new ones to start the cycle all over again. Now, you may think that er you and I are very different from a T four bacteria but personally, and I on can only speak for myself, I can't speak for you of course, but personally I'm prepared to accept that basically I'm really nothing more than a very very complicated and much bigger T four bacterial. As far as evolution is concerned, I, and this is really the essence of our modern view, I am really nothing more than the packaging of my genes, because after all this is what evolution acts on. Evolution ultimately selects for the erm reproductive success of individual organisms, and you can see very clearly in the case of the T four bac bacterial that it is really nothing more than the temporary protein packaging of its D N A. Now admittedly, the T four bacterial is a very simple organism, it can't leap about so it doesn't need senses or a brain to direct it, or muscles or anything like that, it can't repair itself or change itself once it's been made, therefore it doesn't need to digest food, er to, to have an immune system or anything like that to repair itself or put itself to rights, it doesn't need anything like that. Erm, it's a very very simplified organism. Because it reproduces inside another cell in this parasitic way, erm, it doesn't have to find a mate or even bother to split in half to reproduce by asexual means. It's, it's a very simple organism, but basically what it's there for is to ensure the future of T four genes, and this is what i it's doing, and presumably natural selection has er selected it in such a way that it is an optimum design as far as, as far as doing this er is concerned, because it would be in competition with mutant T fours who did it in different ways, and presumably this is the kind of T four that seems to succeed. And I'm certainly prepared to admit that from the point of view of erm evolution, I too am er little more than a biodegradable package er for my genes, because, after all, if natural selection really were about fitness and perfecting the organisms, in terms of making the organism more perfect, more fit, more survivable, why don't we live forever, or, or almost forever? After all, evolution has been going on now for about four billion years as far as we know and there aren't very many long-lived organisms. There are some, like erm, oak trees live five or six hundred years if they're lucky, pines can live for a thousand years, giant tortoises for two hundred, well these are quite impressive figures, but let's face it it's not very long, erm, compared with the time that evolution has been at it. Why hasn't evolution produced organisms that practically last for... [tape jumps] selecting for is reproductive success. Reproductive success, we now know, and Darwin didn't of course, means passing on your genes. That is what a T four bacteria is for and that's what I am for, and I would suggest y ultimately what you are for as well, and this is why in the end erm nature will cast us aside. We're just the kind of biodegradable packaging. The mistake that the social Darwinists like Herbert Spencer made, and that popular opinion still makes about evolution, is the kind of mistake that aliens might make if they landed in a Safeway supermarket car park. I mean a real Safeway, you know, the ones you see in the U S... [tape jumps] where everything you know, even the trolleys, are seven times bigger, erm n n not like they are, you know, the aliens land in the car park of the Maple Valley Safeways in Washington State, and, and observe people coming out of it with enormous piles of shopping. Er, what do they think? They think people are buying cartons and bottles and tins and packets. They might be astonished to find, soon after, that those very same cartons and bottles and tins have perhaps been thrown out in people's, in people's... [tape jumps]. Well, of course, you and I know that the reason you go to Safeways to buy things is not to get the packaging, not usually, what you're interested in is what's inside the packets. We consume what's inside the packets we buy in our groceries, we consume the contents of the bottle, what's in the carton, we throw it away. It's no, no, no further use to us. It seems to me that's an analogy with natural selection. If you conceive the, the organism has a temporary packaging as a kind of protein coat around its, its genes, which T four bacteria clearly is, then once the genes have been passed on, the packaging is no further use and can be discarded. So it seems to me that the existence of death, the fact that organisms don't live forever, and they certainly are not perfected in terms of personal fitness or survivability, because they get diseases and they die... [tape jumps] suggests to me that our modern insight into evolution acting on individual genes is, is correct. Namely, that organisms evolved to be the biodegradable packaging of those genes. I know this is a bit of an affront to our high opinion of ourselves as human beings, er, of course many people regard it that way, but erm my view is that er we can't expect science necessarily to tell us things we want to hear.... [tape jumps] human fantasy and... [tape jumps] for our benefit. Had Darwin known about this you see Darwin could have turned on his critics and said, look, in the first place you're quite wrong about genetics, there is no or at least there doesn't have to be because mutations occur as errors or changes in the base sequences in, in the genetic code. This is our modern concept of a mutation. To go back to my earlier diagram, what happens erm in a, in a mutation, let me find the right one, is that the change occurs in, in these in these bases. One of these base pairs erm another combination is substituted, either by, by er some kind of error in or by the influence of something like erm bac background radiation or some kind of chemical effect or something like that. A mutation means a single based change in the genetic code which may or may not have er ultimate consequences for the organism. Since erm sexually reproducing organisms are and I've tried to keep technical jargon in this course to a minimum, but one term we'll have to learn is diploid, you can't do without it. Diploid means that you get two complete sets of all your genes in sexual reproduction, one from each parent. It's just Greek for two-ply, that's all it is. It's a Greek word meaning two-ply, as in a two-ply bug, a bug with two, two er wires in it. Erm, we are two-ply, diploid, in a sense that we get one set of our genes from one parent and another complete set from the other parent. Now, if one parent has a mutant, has a mutation, supposing I, let's go back to me being a mutant which I was rather enjoying, erm, I'm the mutant with a gene which increases my reproductive success by one hundred percent. Darwin's critics were wrong when they said that all my offspring would inherit half of it. On the contrary, half my offspring will inherit all of it. I will hand on that gene complete to half my offspring, because all my offspring will get half my genes. Therefore the chances are, and this is statistical, it's a statistical chance, in general I can expect any mutation in me to be passed on to half my offspring complete. It won't be dilute, therefore part of my offspring will find their reproductive success enhanced by one hundred percent... [tape jumps] offspring will find their reproductive success enhanced by one hundred percent.... [tape jumps] other words, if we think of a mutation as a change in a single gene, then mutations are not diluted. They're handed on complete to every generation and they have their effects in every generation. And, as you can see, if I did have a m a mutant gene that promoted reproductive success by a hundred percent... [tape jumps] what natural selection means, enhanced reproductive success.? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] ... [tape jumps] always say this because, you know, developments happen all the time, but as far as we know, genes are handed on as complete discrete enti entities, in units... [tape jumps] is what discovered. breeding experiments erm showed this. I mean, he didn't know about genes and he was rather lucky that he chose to study the aspects of things he did. But we now know that what discovered was individual genes and, as far as we know, individual genes are always handed on complete and intact.... [tape jumps] about this myself because I think it's complex. Sometimes I think both genes are used, sometimes only one, not the other, and I'm not sure that anybody knows exactly how, how and why that works out but erm [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] I was hoping not to mention this, but since raised it, we'll have to. Erm, some genes are different in that some genes are called dominant and some genes are called recessive. Now this is not all, all genes, just some genes.... [tape jumps] genes. If you, if you get a recessive gene from one of your parents that have a corresponding dominant gene in the other, then only the dominant gene is expressed in your body. However, if you get two copies of a recessive gene from both parents, then the recessive gene will be expressed. Now this is important because another criticism th th that Darwin's critics made was, hey look, sometimes people inherit things that're very bad for them. A very good example would be haemophilia in, in Queen Victoria. Queen Victoria had a gene of haemophilia. She passed it on to about half her offspring. By astonishing good luck they all married. The British royal family is now clear of haemophilia, they don't have it at all. So they go on marrying into their tiny little self-perpetuating group as much as they like, they're not gonna b suffer from haemophilia. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] Er, yeah, I will say what I was going to say. Erm,th the Russian royal family have er got it. Now, people said, how could Darwin explain how something like haemophilia could keep going? Or, of course, what Darwin didn't know bu but discovered was haemophilia keeps going because it's recessive. It hides as it were behind dominant genes which are normally okay. It only shows itself if by mischance you get two haemophilia genes, two recessives, at that point in your, in your erm... [tape jumps] you're in very serious trouble. But that doesn't happen very often and natural selection of course will then select out individuals with two recessive genes but since those don't show up very often, it's a rather weak effect. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] It's a sex link as you say. Erm [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] Mentioning the white chromosome reminds me of another thing I wanted to say, because erm another variant of this incorrect criticism that people made of Darwin about blending, and you still hear this today, and people should know better, especially the social sciences, is, oh, single genes cannot influence behaviour. Even if you had a single gene which is terribly important, erm because human beings are complex everything they do is affected by large numbers of genes... [tape jumps] a number of examples that contradict that. By far the best one is one suggested by, by the white chromosome as being male. There is indeed a single gene male which has recently been and it acts as a switch. And what happens is that if an embryo has the single gene for being male, it happens to have a white chromosome not surprisingly, it turns on thousands of other genes that then make the embryo into a male, but, but that single gene has to be there to act as a switch and that's... [tape jumps] that gene is also present in alligators and crocodiles... [tape jumps] so the point I'm making is it is just wrong to say that, that all these discoveries about genetics cut no ice with human evolution, because human things cannot be influenced by single genes. I'm afraid that is not true. The situation is this. If, if you have, if both your copies of that gene are recessive then it... [tape jumps] if only one is recessive and the other is dominant, it doesn't both dominant... [tape jumps] only just beginning to find out, but you're quite right, it is contrary. There is recent evidence, for instance, that there is... [tape jumps] want erm different things from what females... [tape jumps] [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] The package does seem to be put together in, in, in one way that seems to be fundamentally fair. And that is, when, I can't remember what it's called, and erm... [tape jumps] when the sex cells are made exactly half of an individual's genes go into each, and when sex cells er come together in a fertilized exactly half of each parent's genes are fitted together, so that's completely fair, well almost completely fair, because there are a few genes outside the nucleus that only get... [tape jumps] they're, they're in a rather minority. So it looks as if er nature has kind of erm struck a bargain in this respect, that each parent can contribute exactly half, but I think it's, we're only just beginning to find out about what happens then and my guess is about internal conflict between genes because I strongly suspect that there must be a lot of that going on because, as I think you've rightly seen, if we take this view of evolution as selecting for individual genes, then we would expect conflict even within the gender. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] I think w I think how it works it, it's, it's, it's, I don't think you can say it's the right package. I think th th that's a kind of er value judgment, all I can say is [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well wh I think all you can say is, you end up with a, with a package of genes which you got from your parents. You may be okay, you may not be okay, you've got two recessives per human figure, you're not... [tape jumps] er, all one can say is genes are kind of heaped together and natural selection doesn't really care. What natural selection does seem to care about as far as sex is concerned is that there is constant re-combination and this is a question of sexual that we'll touch on later. It looks as if sex evolved because it's in the interest of genes to constantly be re-combined... [tape jumps] self interest not always in company with the same others... [tape jumps] may want to be er mixing themselves up, so they launch themselves in continually different combinations, and this presumably each gene... [tape jumps] what, what, what is happening is a constant filtering process all the time, by means of which natural selection is working on basically random changes in the... [tape jumps] final point I want to make and that's [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] Yes, genes, yes. [speaker002:] or are they [Chris:] Yes, for every, for every individual gene you get from your mother, you get a corresponding individual gene from your father [speaker002:] At the same place, place on the perimeter [Chris:] At the same place on the perimeter. But, but, genes themselves are spread all over the perimeter, so you might well find that er genes there's more of them [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] than others, yes, yes, but genetics is a complex issue. I dare say knows more about this than I do. Ask her. I just wanna finish with one point. There's one final point I want to make because this acts as a kind of prelude to what we're gonna do now down in S O one eight, and to the main start of the course, and that's this. I now want to prove to you that this kind of evolution I've been talking about, evolution by natural selection, at the level of individual genes, cannot produce social cooperation. The argument goes like this. Supposing we start off with, erm, we had to explain the origins of cooperation. Supposing we start off with a species of selfish individuals. Now we, we define cooperation as altruism here and we'll go over this again. I'm just quickly introducing... [tape jumps] altruism as any behaviour that promotes the reproductive success of the beneficiary at a cost to the reproductive success of the altruist. Now, imagine what happens if a gene for altruism... [tape jumps]. What will happen in a population of selfish organisms? By definition the gene must promote the reproductive success of the selfish organisms at a cost to itself... [tape jumps] but a gene for altruism could evolve in a population of selfish individuals... [tape jumps] a population of altruists, in whom a gene for selfishness appears by random mutation. By definition, the altruistic majority must promote the reproductive success of the selfish... [tape jumps] the reproductive success of the selfish organism, the mutant, will be far greater than the altruist, and within a few generations... [tape jumps] of selfish individuals. It would... [tape jumps] to find altruism in the way we could find... [tape jumps] but social cooperation or self-sacrifice or altruism could evolve by natural selection. Does everybody see that? Q E D, we seem to have proved that what happens all around us cannot namely altruism and cooperation. What we will now do is go down to S O one eight and we will discover the answer to this, or we will begin to discover the answer to this. First by erm having a story and then by playing a game, and in playing that game before us the answer to this deep problem will emerge. We will see how cooperation evolves. S O one eight, for those of you who don't know, is in the basement of Saint Clements building. Are any of you experienced map users? Right, okay. If anybody wants Blind Watchmaker I have it here, ditto Evolvematic. Yes. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, in terms of this definition it has to be because that's the only, that's the bottom line of evolution, and it's the only quantitative measure we can ever have, it's the only... [tape change] When you're ready, there's no hurry. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah, good idea. I dunno whether you wanted a mark for this. I gave you one. Erm, just one little slip, you put eighteen fif nineteen fifty nine, it was eighteen fifty nine wasn't it, the Origin of Species? That was just a slip. An excellent, very clearly and very correctly expressed. Excellent essay. Well done. A minus, okay? [speaker002:] Okay, great. [Chris:] I thought that was really good, well done. [speaker002:] Fine, thanks a lot. [Chris:] So, that's the other one. [speaker002:] Yeah, cos I haven't, I mean there's a lot of reading to catch up on, so I figured... [tape jumps] [Chris:] Let's just have a look at the erm, let's do the who've we got, Bill? Malcolm, we haven't got Malcolm have we?... [tape jumps], isn't it? What's your surname again Tracy?, that's right. I've got you down as here for the last three. Right, so who's performing today? [speaker002:] I am. [Chris:] Right, you are expert. Well, we're not supposed to start till five past, so let's give them a couple more minutes just in case they're caught in the lift or something. Reed, sorry I haven't got Reed either have I? No. Right. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear]... [tape jumps] [Chris:] I think this is better cos I think the Friday one is fuller. So I think we've done the right thing. Erm, what's your surname again? , that's right. okay. So I've mentioned everyone, I haven't overlooked anybody have I?... [tape jumps]. Oh no, as I was saying to Reed the other day, er Reed has joined our class by the way. Let me introduce you because you weren't here when we did the introductions, were you? Let me introduce you to the class. This is Tracy, this is Alex, this is Bill, this is Theresa, this is Katherine and this is Hayley, and there are one or two others who aren't here yet who may turn up. Now, Reed is er joining us just for this term, isn't it? And er we've allocated all the class papers so erm that means you escape unless you really do want to do er a class presentation. You could perhaps team up with somebody else if you wanted to, so if you see someone and we're just going through the order in which they appear. So, so you missed er least week's, that was number one, that's number two.... Hi, come on in, take a seat. That was Susan, wasn't it? And Malcolm wasn't it? No, not Malcolm, Jake. Jake wasn't it? [speaker002:] Trust your instincts. [Chris:] you can have one of the other chairs. Did anybody leave that scarf behind last night because I found it on my chair. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Oh, it was Friday was it? Oh, it was the evolution. Yeah, could be, could be. Okay, it's just about five past so we can probably start with a clear conscience. If anybody else comes, they're late. So we're doing dreams. Theresa. [speaker002:] [student reading or speaking too quietly to hear] [Chris:] all, I mean you've said just about everything I think. I mean, that was a very full and complete account. You obviously did a lot of work for that. What did you read? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] The introductory lectures, was it? [speaker002:] Yeah and then I read [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] It is a big book, you're absolutely right. Er, well, well done, that was absolutely excellent. I mean, you erm you really did, did cover, cover just about everything. Erm, what about examples though? That was one thing that was missing. I mean, I'm n this is no criticism because you, you couldn't er, you'd have taken up the whole hour if you'd included examples. But did any examples occur to you? I mean, have you had dreams of your own that you thought this related to in any way? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Now, why was that? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah, you have a recurrent dream, okay. Well look, we won't embarrass you by asking you to tell us what it is, but what we will do [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Unless you want to. Well, erm, er, is it, is it a very short one? [speaker002:] Yes [Chris:] Alright, tell us the dream. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Because you've missed something. And that's the dream. [speaker002:] That's the dream. [Chris:] Now do you wake up from this dream in a state of anxiety? Does it wake you or do you just [speaker002:] No, it doesn't wake me. [Chris:] It doesn't wake you. So it's not an anxiety dream. You don't wake up thinking, oh my God, I've failed the exam, no. Well, okay. This is an example of a dream. Now what would Freud call the dream as Theresa has told us it? [speaker002:] The manifest. [Chris:] Right, that's called the manifest content. Now does everybody understand that? Because this is quite an important distinction to make. That's the manifest dream. That's the dream as Theresa dreamt it and as she recounted it to us. Okay. Now, erm, if er Theresa was interested in analyzing this dream er how should she have gone about it? What's the next step? Having, having got the manifest content, what, what does Freud's theory of dreams tell us we need to do next? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] In, in what sense? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, and what would we do with those elements, what [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, and how would we do that? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, er,wh what we want to do, what we want to do is to relate this manifest content that you've told us to what, what's the other thing? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] To the latent content, right. Now the, the, what connects the two things together because we assume there is a latent content in, in this dream? What's, how do we establish the connection between the manifest content of the dream and the latent? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, that's the key word I was looking for. Associations. Jake, was that what you were gonna say? [speaker002:] Erm [Chris:] Because you looked as if you were winding up to say something. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, that's right, yes. That's another way of saying it. What the, the links between the manifest and the latent content are what in the technical jargon of psychoanalysis we would call free associations. In other words, they're ideas that occur to you. So if you were, if you were having an analysis shall we say Theresa, you reported your dream to the analyst. What the analyst would say to you in trying to help you to resolve this dream would be, well, report what you think of in connection with the manifest content. In other words, friends at the school and the idea, as you said at the very beginning of your paper, is to report without any kind of erm censorship or judgment. You would just say things that pop in to you mind and er it's essential of course, if you're gonna do dream analysis properly, that you must obey that rule. If you deviate from it, and it's terribly easy to deviate from it by rejecting certain thoughts, oh that's silly, that's not relevant, that's too obvious, that's objectionable, erm, that's too Freudian, you know, if you say that kind of thing to yourself you get nowhere. Because you see what is, now n why won't you get anywhere? What's the, what's,w why isn't this kind of process easy? Why can't? Because it [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] You do, and you have to assume it's right, whatever comes up. You have to assume it's correct. It's very difficult, you never lose the feeling of resistance to it. I mean, I've been analyzing every dream I can remember now for the last twenty one years and er I think I've got rather good at dream interpretation I must admit. Erm, but even today er with every dream the same feeling comes and you just have to resolutely ignore it and say well, you know, that's what I thought. In other words, what you've gotta try and distinguish is what you're thinking. In free association what you think about your thoughts and what you think about your thoughts. As Theresa says, we usually try and censor them, try and say no, you know, leave that out, erm, it's as if you had a kind of er censor sitting in your mind telling me, er telling you telling you er er, but it works with me too, erm what you can and cannot say. You know, as if erm, as if there were some censor present who, who, who wanted to make judgments. Now, in analyzing dreams that is the single and in a way the only problem. But you can overcome that problem and assemble enough free associations. You can usually then begin to see some kind of crazy logic in them. If you let them lead you where they want to go, they lead back to this latent content and then you begin to recognize er the latent thoughts. Now, as you said in your paper, the latent thoughts are often very very different from the, from the er manifest thoughts,th they're way away from them. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if, if you analyzed this dream you discovered it had nothing to do with being at school and nothing to do with taking exams. Do you know what I mean? The, the, the, you know would, it's quite possible that the, that the manifest content i has completely misdirected your attention and the latent content is really something else. For example, and I'm not saying this is, this is so, but it's not unusual in that kind of dream if it's recurring in the present, to find that really it's about the present and not about the past. So it seems to be about school anxiety and exam anxieties and so, but those are very common kinds of dreams, but, but very often when you you find they're actually about the present, they're about some recurrent anxiety or conflict in the present which is masquerading as if it were in the past because your associations of what's going on are connected with the past er one way or another. I mean, for example, I mean I'm not saying this is an association but you might find in your dream, if you look to say I'm back at school, then your association would be but I am at school now, the London School of Economics, do you see what I mean? Th th that kind of thing can easily happen, so school now, I E L S E, is represented as the school you went to when you were a kid. I mean,th that's a typical kind of association, that, that it's a link, you can see the link is in the word, but the effect is to, is to misdirect your attention. Manifestly you think you're, you're, you're thinking about one school, whereas in reality you're thinking about quite a different one. Now I'm not saying that is the basis because only you could supply the, the, the free associations. While we're on this question, one of the few things that er Theresa didn't say, although perhaps she might have said it when I wasn't, I don't think she did but one of the few things she didn't say is why Freud disapproved of the typical kind of dream book you find in any book shop. Er, the meaning of your dreams revealed, you know, you see this kind of, yeah, now why did he disapprove of that kind of analysis? What was wrong with that approach? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] That's right. That's the, that's the key point that and were making, that only you or only the dreamer can interpret their own dreams. So, it's no good er me looking up in some book Theresa's dreams if I could decipher it like some kind of code in which every single thing in the laten in the manifest content represented something latent for what we're trying to then kind of decode as in a code book because er that's not valid, at least it's not valid in general terms. It's a good analogy in terms of Theresa's private thoughts. She's got a private code book but the point is that only she knows how the symbols, how the manifest and latent relate to each other, because only she can make those associated links. It's, you can't in general lay down generalized associative links and say every time somebody dreams about erm an examination it represents anxiety about their future career or something. I mean, it might represent that, but it might not. It could easily stand for something else. If, for instance, the dream associated an exam with er with, with some peripheral aspect of taking examinations which erm had nothing to do with any kind of test. It's quite possible. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, now why is that Bill? You're quite right. There is a ch lecture on dream symbols so why, despite this excellent point that J M Hayley made, does he still mention symbols? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, that's it. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] That's right, as, as, as Theresa said at the beginning, one of the prime characteristics of dreams is this kind of visual erm symbolism and in the course of analyzing thousands of dreams of course which he did in his practice, Freud found that very often certain fundamental things that people tend to dream about quite a lot tend to appear in lots of people's dreams with similar kinds of er representations, and among the most notorious and obvious of these were things related to sex. Now, Freud wasn't saying that every time you dream about an umbrella you're, you're dreaming some kind of sexual wish, erm, but what he's saying is that umbrellas and other things that can erm become erect or open out often do represent but you could conceivably have an umbrella dream in which the umbrella, through your private associations, stood for something completely different, it's quite, it's quite possible. So we're not saying that every time somebody dreams about an umbrella it means erm that,wh what he was saying is er that kind of visual symbolism often does stand for in this case erm the male genital, but it need not. It's just a kind of recurrent symbolic erm language and, of course, people develop symbols. I mean, for instance, in my dreams er cars have taken on a very distinct personal symbolism that has really nothing to do with what you might think, because of personal experiences of mine, and I now know that whenever I dream about cars it always always has this but that's because of something that happened to me and because of my personal erm kind of experiences, so cars have become a dream symbol. But erm, the, so although he, he, the point I'm making is although it was who says he mentioned symbolism, or became aware of it, it's er, it doesn't conflict with the point th that, that we were making earlier, that the only person who can interpret their dreams is the dreamer ultimately. There's no quick and easy way. Susan, did you want to [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, let's, let, let's pursue that for a minute. I mean, people sometimes you know, give the impression, oh erm, Freud thought all dreams were about sex. Is that true? No. Why not? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, absolutely. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, in the first place you don't of course, because the, the manifest content may be totally innocent. It's only when you pursue the associations with the manifest content and ask yourself what does that make me think of, that you start to think of things that you then realize leads to a latent content, which may be sexual in, in, in nature, but why er, even if, as Theresa rightly says, we d we have to say it's crude and misrepresentational for that all, all, all dreams are about sex. There's no doubt if you analyze a lot of dreams, that an awful lot of them are as a matter of fact. Now why is it? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, and there might be another reason as well. I mean,th that's kind of you're you're seeing it from above as it were, why they should be forced out of the manifest if there's some other reason? And here you might think of other kinds of dreams that are so-called typical dreams, like for instance erm, er, has anybody had this dream where you want to go to the bathroom but can't find it? Has anybody had that kind of dream? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, now this is a typical dream, it, Freud lists it, there is a chapter in the Interpretation of Dreams called typical dreams. How do you think he interpreted this dream? Because it's a very common one. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, that's er, that's er, right,the the these are both the same kinds of dreams. Er, to answer your question, really we need to remind ourselves what's, what according to Freud is the function of dreams? What are dreams for? What's their ultimate purpose? Theresa did mention it. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah, yeah, right, to, to maintain the state of sleep. That's th th that was one of Freud's fundamental findings. Now, the kind of dream that and we are very thirsty, and you want to go to the bathroom or something, is a dream whi which is the result of a kind of compromise. On the one hand, says Freud, there's a strong desire to go on sleeping, but on the other hand there's this stimulus, I'm terribly thirsty or you know I, I, I, I really do need to go to the bathroom pretty badly, and there's an inner conflict in your mind. One thing, you need to go to the bathroom or, or to get a drink, says wake up and go and do it, the other thing,th th the desire to go on sleeping, says you know, well don't wake now, I want to go on sleeping. So the dream becomes a symbolic expression of this conflict and what very often happens is the there's a kind of compromise in which you go off and look for the bathroom or the drink of water or whatever it is you want, but the dream keeps postponing you finding it, in order to lengthen the dream and the state of sleep, so you go on sleeping for a bit longer. Another example of, of a similar thing er that you mentioned towards the end of your paper was where an external stimulus interferes with dreams. For example, er, I had last year in the in the class a student said that they missed an exam. The reason was they set their alarm, they were terribly conscientious about setting their alarm clock so they'd wake up in the morning to go to the exam, and er it was a very loud alarm clock so not the kind of thing you could sleep through, but come the morning of the exam the alarm went off and the student started to dream that they were out hearing church bells or something, you know they're walking around hearing all these church bells, thinking isn't it nice, you know, it's Sunday morning, oh I could go on sleeping. So the very thing that was supposed to wake them up, the noise of the alarm bell, was turned in the dream into a wishful of now I can go on sleeping, okay there's a bell, but it's Sunday morning, you know, the bells are ringing, the church bells are ringing, I can go on sleeping, so they went on sleeping and they were late for the exam. So, I mean, there's an example of where there was a conflict and obviously it wasn't just the desire to sleep. My guess is there was also a desire to avoid going to the exam. So there was a rather more, perhaps a deeper [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] than usual, but that's how, that's how Freud would interpret that kind of dream. Do you think that's convincing?... Do you think that explains your, your water or bathroom search dreams? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] But you don't wet the bed? [speaker002:] Oh no, no [Chris:] Well, yes, I mean that's what happens. With children, I mean, you sometimes find that children have that kind of dream, they do find a bathroom and then they do wake up in a wet bed. Er, I don't think it's so common wi with, with adults who are supposed to have better control over these things, but it certainly sometimes happens with children. And in, and in that case, of course,th that illustrates the other prime finding of Freud about dreams. Dreams exist to safeguard sleep, but what's the ultimate, what was Freud's ultimate finding about dream, the kind of essence of his dream theory? Expressed in the, in every dream is what, says Freud? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, expression of a wish, says Katherine. Erm, do you think that's convincing, Katherine? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right, right [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] That's an anxiety dream. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Did you have that dream more than once, or just once? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] But it's still [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] No. Er, most people have that kind of anxiety dream. Some people have them quite a lot. Now, it's easy to see, if we're talking about the kind of dreams that Reed was telling us about, erm, that there's a simple wish with these dreams and in the end you wake up and you go and gratify the wish in that case. Okay. But erm, what about anxiety dreams like Katherine's? Surely this contradicts the Freudian theory cos how could er a horrifying dream like that still, still makes her feel anxious? How could that possibly be the fulfilment of a wish? Surely this contradicts Freud's central finding, doesn't it? What d'ya think? Do you ever have anxiety dreams? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah, so d do you think this is credible? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] How do you think Freud would account for them, if he wanted to defend his theory? How, how could he explain such a dream as Katherine's, do you think?... Anybody? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, in a, in a sense that's er that's, that's the answer. The, you reminded us of er another aspect of dreams, that, that, that one notices if you actually do a bit of dream interpretation yourself, is what called, what Freud called day's residues. Now a day's residue is some association which relates the manifest content usually to what happened to you that day, and often i they're very oft it's often that the day's residue is built into the manifest dream, so it's quite obvious, you had this dream because of something that happened to you on that day. Very often day's residues are among the first associations th that will occur to you. However, if you pursue the associations and begin to delve into the latent content, what you often find is that those day's residues, which are specific to that day, as Theresa was saying, relate to more general erm situations, or indeed to things that actually happened in the past which that particular aspect of that particular day might remind you of. So you trace the, the, the, in other words the day's residue becomes just part of the associations which leads back often to things which didn't necessarily happen today, or which may even have happened in the past. And, er, so the, so Freud's theory doesn't necessarily require that, that any source of anxiety should be traced to today's events, what it what it does say is that very often today's events shape the manifest, and sometimes the latent, content of the dream quite a lot. However, his, his explanation for Alex's and Katherine's point about anxiety dreams would be that the, the anxiety dream is, is one in which dreams fail in their function. If we say, you see, that the function of the dream is to safeguard sleep, and to fulfil wishes, then it's clear that in the real world not all wishes are fulfillable and it may well be that, that the latent thoughts, in some cases, is so alarming and so disturbing, that they cannot be sufficiently disguised and will lead to a state of waking, and that waking proves of course that the dream has failed in its function of safeguarding sleep. In other words, an anxiety dream is a kind of aborted dream, a dream that attempted to disguise a er disturbing latent content but could not succeed in the end. So the anxiety breaks through and you wake up. I think Theresa was first. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, in that sense, in that sense, the unconscious thought was expressed but the, but the point was,i the anxiety as it were got the better of the dream, didn't it, if you woke up? Because ideally if, if, if a dream was really gonna work it would disguise the anxiety under some reassuring manifest content that would stop you feeling anxious and therefore waking, wouldn't it? [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, this, this kind of thing happens to people who've been in traumatic situations, like erm er prisoner of war camps, severe accidents and stuff like that, and Freud himself of course saw quite a lot of these cases after the First World War. Er, does anybody know what his theory of these was? Well, let me just quickly answer Alex's point before I come back er to, to, to erm and Jake. Erm,Fr if, if you look into these dreams, what very often happens is, or what people report, is that whilst they're experiencing the, the traumatic situation, whatever it may be, being in a prison camp or something, their dreams are often fairly straightforward, they're to do with simple wishful things like being rescued, escaping, getting. After they have been released then these anxiety dreams start. And wh what tends to happen is the dreams are, are, are repetitive, although they often vary in small details, and the idea is, or this was Freud's, Freud's idea, and basically it's the same as his explanation of anxiety dreams, that, that what is happening here is that the mind has got a very disturbing latent content that it can't forget. It's trying to forget it, and trying to turn it into a more reassuring manifest content, so it starts to dream about it, but the latent thoughts are so disturbing it never succeeds and consequently the whole dream work, this process of disguising the latent content, just doesn't get anywhere at all, except for a few minor details. And so the whole memory comes back and er the individual just cannot be rid of it. So in other words that kind of dream represents an extreme example of erm of an aborted dream, but the very fact that it's repetitive and you keep having them, Freud would say, is, is a demonstration of the fundamental idea,th that the dream attempts to try and put the past right as it were, you try and dream about it, but you fail all the time. Er, I think it was Hayley first. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, yes [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, of course, sometimes anxiety dreams can be a fulfilment of, of wishes because people can enjoy anxiety. I mean, this is why Hollywood you know can make a lot of money out of some pretty horrifying movie, the th the kind of thing I couldn't go to see er cos I get the willies, I can't bear that kind of thing, but some people enjoy being frightened don't they? I mean, being frightened er spooky kind of you know thing in a lot films can be exciting for some people. And some dreams, I'm not saying Katherine's is, I'm sure it isn't, but, but some people, some people's anxiety dreams are of that kind. Th they're being frightened because they enjoy being frightened and there's a kind of perverse wish fulfilment in that. And that, that certainly happens. Jake, what were [speaker002:] Something interesting happened to me that I never really thought about, erm, but I used to get these dreams where I used to dream that I'd be either falling off a cliff or driving a car and getting into an accident and like or driving off a cliff. And I used to wake up like two feet off my bed, like I dunno my, my body [Chris:] What, you were levitating? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I mean I would open my eyes and see myself like that, wake up and then I'd bounce off the bed and then I'd sit there bouncing and, and but I haven't had that in a long time and wh when I thought now a lot of times, if I think that I leave either the front door unlocked, my house unlocked or the garage door open I go and actually check that in the middle of the night. And I haven't had these dreams in a long time, and I used to never do anything like that. So now I always and so I, I'm thinking that it might be that, that I that erm maybe you know like I used to be anxious about something like that and I used to wake up and the dream used to happen, but now that I've double checked that I know for sure that, that I'm safe you know for the night it doesn't happen any more by cutting off possibility [Chris:] It certainly sounds like it, doesn't it? as if, if you've done that you somehow you feel that you've got no reason to be anxious any more. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Oh, that's right, a very famous book, yeah [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, that, that, that reminds me of something that might cast some light on Jake's dream. I don't know about these, this person you're thinking of but er a very common reaction, I certainly have this from time to time, it really does irritate my wife cos I usually wake her up, is you know, you're just going off to sleep and you suddenly kind of feel you're falling, does, does that happen? That's quite a common thing I think. I mean I kind of you know, you give a start and unfortunately if you're in bed with somebody else you tend to wake them up, because my wife never does that, she's just too good to be true. But erm, so now I'm blamed for waking her up. But erm, you know, there's a wonderful picture, I don't know if you've seen it, by Salvador Dali, called Sleep, which is a kind of head-like figure, it's a figure which is mainly a head with a kind of sheet draped over it, supported on crutches, lots of crutches, and this kind of represents this, and the idea that if one of the crutches were to move, the figure would wake up. Now erm my, my, there's a poss a possibility that the kind of dream you're reporting is one which is triggered by that kind of reaction, because I don't know whether Theresa read about this, but in Interpretation of Dreams there's a famous example that was provided to Freud by one of his friends of a similar thing. What happened was the man erm went to sleep and while he was asleep something in the room fell on his neck. I don't know how this happened, but er erm a piece of wood or something fell and hit him on the back of the neck and woke him up and he woke up from the vivid dream of being at the time of the French Revolution, of being lead up the guillotine and having his head chopped off. And his point was you know, this was quite a long dream, you know,th i the manifest content, the whole argument of the dream, took some time er and his objection was, how could Freud's theory explain this? Well, erm, does anybody know how Freud explained that dream? Well, his theory was that this guy was a writer or something, a historian or somebody like that, and Freud said it's quite likely that in the past he had had either dreams about a similar dream or conscious fantasies about how he would have felt if he'd been in the French Revolution and what might have happened to him. He'd then possibly forgotten these dreams or fantasies and then when the stimulus of feeling something on the back of his neck happened to him whilst asleep, suddenly the fantasy came back, all as a piece as it were, and it occurred to me that your dream about driving off viaducts might be caused by being asleep, having one of these falling experiences, then relating it to previous thoughts you'd had, you know on the freeway or something, oh my God, how awful it would be if I, if I drove off that bend below, do you know what I mean? It's possible isn't it? It's a possibility that it's related to some existing thought you'd had. You know, how easy it would be drive off and, and kill yourself or something. [speaker002:] Is it necessary that you had to have had some kind of fantasy before [Chris:] Yes. [speaker002:] about the French Revolution? Why, why wasn't it enough that out of every experience that I mean like not much happens to the back of your neck like that, that's one thing that I'd even think about, I mean I'm not any kind of historian, but like, like anything like the back of the neck I would think of a guillotine also. [Chris:] Right, yeah. [speaker002:] But is it necessary that he should fantasize about that beforehand? [Chris:] Well you see, what Freud had to explain here was how he could have had such a long dream when the dreamer reported that he woke up more or less instantly from the stimulus of something hitting him on the back of the neck. Now unless we think that dreams can unravel very fast in the mind, much faster, and there is some evidence that that's true actually, that dreams can in fact happen quicker than you could think of them in conscious time. Nevertheless, I think Freud's view was that er the erm, if it was a really long complicated dream, you were recalling a previous fantasy rather than er necessarily creating from scratch because of this particular stimulus. I dunno. Has anybody ha ever had a dream like that? Not very common I suppose. Erm [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] pizzas? [speaker002:] giant pizzas all over the place [Chris:] You greedy girl. [speaker002:] so comfortable [Chris:] Really? [speaker002:] and I had to make sure I didn't eat them because they were so comfortable. And the strange thing is my boyfriend was dreaming about pizzas at the same time. And he kept shouting out, feed me, feed me, so I woke up at one o'clock in the morning. [Chris:] But had, had anybody mentioned pizzas beforehand? Or [speaker002:] No [Chris:] I mean was this er a possibility that you ought to have a pizza [speaker002:] No, we both like pizzas, but to dream about them at the same time, and he's screaming out in his sleep, get me a pizza [Chris:] Yes, I think you were sharing your dreams. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Well, go to bed on a pizza [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] And it keeps re-occurring [Chris:] You have a pizza problem. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Well, it's, it's eleven o'clock. We've gotta call it, call it a day now. Theresa, we are deeply indebted to you. We will leave erm Tracy with her pizza dreams [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] erm, you can, you can carry on analyzing your dreams at your leisure. I'll be saying something about them in the lectures, not today but next week, and er now which reminds me, who is performing next week? Let's er, Jake is, right, okay. Oh, and you is it? [speaker002:] And then me. [Chris:] And then you. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. You'll have to have another go in your dreams Theresa. Well now you, now you've had a class on it, you'll have to go back to it refreshed and try and crack it. [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] [talk simultaneous] I did this but it's not for a few weeks time for my presentation on Freud, or [Chris:] Oh I know, right, yeah, right. [speaker002:] Erm, what I wanted [Chris:] Do you want to talk to me about that in the tutorial first or would that be? [speaker002:] That's two weeks time. I can if you want, it's just that I came up with a few things that didn't make sense, they were fairly contradictory things. I just wanted to know [Chris:] Well look when are we having our next tutorial? Do you want to do this in the tutorial? I mean [speaker002:] Sure. Tomorrow is... twelfth of November [Chris:] Yeah, that's right, it is [speaker002:] just under two weeks. I could do it then [Chris:] Could you do it then? [speaker002:] It will only take a few minutes, certainly. [Chris:] Or do you want it cleared up beforehand? Is it, is that waiting too long? [speaker002:] No, that's fine [Chris:] It's not waiting too long? [speaker002:] When's my presentation? It's not yet, is it? It's number seven, we're only on number three that's fine [Chris:] Oh yeah, you've got quite a bit of time, number seven. Yes, you're doing it on, is it number seven? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Chris:] No it's not, it's number eight. [speaker002:] Number eight. [Chris:] Number eight on the twelfth of November, so you've got plenty of time. [speaker002:] Twelfth of November? [Chris:] Mhm, oh no, it can't be the twelfth of November [speaker002:] No, that's the tutorial, it must be much later than that. [Chris:] Sorry, I'm reading the wrong dates here... That's right, it can't be the twelfth, I must have meant the fourteenth. [speaker002:] I mean it won't mean me redoing it or anything, it's just a few things that I wanted to [Chris:] Yeah [speaker002:] okay, I'll do it then. Thank you. [Chris:] Yeah, we'll do it then [speaker002:] [too quiet to hear] Any suggestions on where to get the book book because now once again the Dillons I'll be getting my plane ticket ready to go home and then I also wrote a cheque with this one, one book store out at er erm, I forget the name of it, but it's out at er Finchley Road, it's supposed to specialize in [Chris:] Have they got it? [speaker002:] No. [Chris:] Erm... I'll, oh dear copies either. The things is there's a small possibility it may be out of print cos there's a new edition in the pipeline. I wonder if they've let it get out of print? I will erm, I tell you what, I'll phone the publishers this morning and see if I can get them to, to er, I need to phone them anyway. I could probably get them to send me one or two copies. I could do with one or two. I may be able to get you one. [speaker002:] Okay, great. [Chris:] Leave it with me. I will, I'll phone my publishers now and see what I can do [speaker002:] I'll see you later on in class [Chris:] Yeah... [sound of a number being dialled on a hands-free telephone] [door knocking] Come in. Oh hi Oliver, do come in. [phone rings] [speaker002:] [phonecall starts] Good morning Publishers [telephone conversation ends]. [Chris:] [phonecall starts] Er, good morning,cou could you put me through to please?... Oh, hello, it's Christopher here. Do you remember I phoned you a week or two ago about some books I wanted? Now, they haven't come yet, so erm presumably they're in the pipeline are they [phonecall ends]? [tape ends]

[speaker001:] [female reading too quietly to hear] [Chris:] Just a second we've gotta re-arrange the furniture slightly here. Erm, I'm afraid the late-comers get the plastic chairs. [speaker001:] That's okay. [Chris:] This is your punishment, okay? Hope they won't be too uncomfortable. erm, won't you start again because you'd only got a couple of minutes into it, hadn't you? Start again. [speaker001:] [female reading too quietly to hear] [Chris:] Well done, excellent. Very clear and pretty complete account really of, of what I've you to cover but it was quite a lot of ground erm she went over and er some of it may be less easy to understand than other bits. Any, any questions to start off with? [cough] [speaker001:] Yeah, okay, and can we go over what [too quiet to hear] Okay,an and so what it said then was that ego, ego is where all these things come together [Chris:] Ya. [speaker001:] and that repression was a way of leaving the ego free of anxiety? [Chris:] Yes, yes, that's right. I mean, this is a good point is a good place to start actually because the, the concept of the ego is the key to whole of this and the changed role of anxiety highlights the difference I think, I think rather, rather, rather clearly. What did Freud think anxiety was in, in what I call the first psychoanalytic revolution, the first period, the eighteen nineties? What was his view of anxiety then? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, certainly sexual something. Specifically it was, he regarded it as kind of transmuted libido. But if, if libido was aroused by for example seduction in childhood it could go nowhere, it was repressed in the unconscious, where it transformed itself by some kind of psychological chemistry into anxiety. Now, clearly this theory has some problems. I think you can see what they were. But y I think you can also see the appeal of this to Freud in that time because in the early years Freud's model of the mind, which is really what we're talking about today, was erm a kind of hydraulic one. I mean th the, the analogy that occurs to me is of a dam holding back a raging torrent. The force of repression is like a great dam that holds back the raging torrents of the instincts of the unconscious and allows er some of them through, but others break through in holes, and holes and cracks appear which are the unconscious returning as one [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] and what repression tries to do is to plug those holes and to keep the repressed repressed. So this leads to a kind of erm stratigraphic view of the mind, with the unconscious, which is everything that is permanently excluded from conscious consciousness by repression, the pre-conscious which is what is not currently conscious but is accessible to consciousness, you can recall it in other words, and the conscious is what you're presently aware of. So, that very simple view of the mind fits with this an idea of anxiety as forced back into the unconscious and then changing, sorry, as, as libido being forced back into the unconscious and then changing into anxiety. Now, that's what this kind of hydrographic or stratigraphic view... in the nineteen twenties, as was telling us, Freud developed this famous model. And there, in order to understand this model, well let's put it this way, I think the easiest way to understand it is to start from the ego. It's a kind of egocentric model, not in the everyday sense of egocentric, that is selfish, but egocentric in the sense that it starts with ego as its reference point. Now, what is the ego in this technical Freudian sense? I mean, we all know what it is in everyday life. Well, let's start with the everyday meaning. What is it in everyday life? If you say someone's got a big ego, what do you mean? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] S er excellent, yes, very good way of putting it, erm, a sense for themselves. Okay. What does ego mean as a technical term in Freud's second model of the mind? Who would like to define all this. has already but could anybody gi give it in their own words? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] That's certainly part of it. Everything that is conscious is in the ego. That's certainly true, but is the ego wholly conscious? No. This is important. Er, is right, the, the area of the mind that is open to, for example, sensory stimuli to your ears and eyes, touch and so on, things that you're conscious of, is in your ego. However, your ego also en encompasses a larger unconscious part. So you can immediately see that it would be quite wrong to make the mistake that people sometimes do make and think that the second model of the mind is really just the first one given new terms and that the ego is equivalent to the conscious. It isn't completely equivalent. Everything that's conscious is in the ego, but not everything that is in the ego is conscious. In other words, the ego is more than just consciousness. So it goes beyond the original definition of the conscious that we talked about when we, when we did that. So, what else is there apart from what was talking about? What else have we to say about ego? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, but how does it do that? Can you elaborate that a bit. That's a bit vague. How does it do this assimilating? What in particular does it? [speaker001:] [cough] Well, it seems to be the place where every erm every source every mental or cognitive psychological source seems to [cough] and then juggle [Chris:] Yes, that's, that, that is quite true. The, another analogy that I find is quite useful for the ego is erm Captain Kirk on the bridge of the Enterprise, okay? When you watch Star Trek, as I'm sure you all do, none of you watch serious television I'm sure. Erm, er, Jim is, Jim is sitting on in er on the flight deck of the Enterprise and he is the guy who has to make all the decisions. This is the great thing about Star Trek. Poor old Jim always has to make the decision because he is in command, okay? The buck stops where Jim is sitting. And that's what the ego has to do. The ego, as says, is open to the outside world and furthermore to stimulations from inside, from inside the body, that reach it through subjective sensations like hunger when you need food, or fear when something threatens you, and cognitive er awareness like er okay you realize that before you have your lunch you're gonna have to go to the bank to get some money to pay for it. These, all these things, are directed, as says, to the ego, and the ego can be thought of as a decision making agency. That's the clearest, simplest function of the ego in this Freudian model of the mind. It's the managerial agency. Freud talks about the ego as an agency, a psychological agency, just as we would talk about say er a social agency. You might say like the law courts here, you know, you might say what're the law courts er as associated in what they, they do? The answer is that they dispense justice, or they're supposed to, although in Britain I'm afraid only sometimes. Erm, so you could say what does the psychological agency, the ego, do? What's his function? And Freud's answer to that is its fundamental function is decision making. You could regard it as that part of the personality which is contr in control of voluntary thought and movement. Now clearly not everything that goes on in the body or mind is voluntary. For example, we cannot voluntarily control our heartbeat or basic bodily functions like that. Those are under automatic control and they go on even when our ego is non-functional, as when we're asleep. But an awful lot of things we can control by volunt voluntary movement, our arms and legs and so on, and we can control our thoughts. We can consciously direct our attention to certain things and think about them. And all of these functions are carried on by the ego. This is the decision making, the command giving part of the mind. And this is why, as rightly said, Freud regarded the, all the other agencies and forces as being [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] into the ego, so the ego was as it were the command centre of the, of the erm of the personality. Er, again if anybody's seen that very amusing film by erm Woody Allen, what's it called, er Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex but w Were Afraid To Ask. Has anybody seen that film? Do you remember the scene where erm er they're inside somebody's body, do you remember this, and he's about to make love and the, the er there's mission control, do you remember that? And then there's other scenes down in the body and they're getting all ready, and there's also some horror scenes of the stomach aren't there, where th he's having dinner with the lady first. The guys in the stomach are trying to deal with all this awful stuff that's coming up. But anyway, this is a very amusing film, but, but the idea of mission control is the concept of the ego, where it is portrayed in a very amusing way in this film by Woody Allen, that the consciousness, Woody Allen's consciousness, is portrayed as mission control at Houston erm and er erm it, that particular scene ends with er when er control erm mission control sends a message down to the lower parts of the body, I won't mention which, says we're going around again boys, and they think oh my God [LAUGHTER] they're very amusing. Anyway, so that's, that's the ego. That's the idea of the ego. Now, [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] we shouldn we shouldn't get carried away, however, by this er focus on its managerial agencies, agency, and think that everything it does in this respect is conscious, because a lot of the processes that occur in the ego are actually not conscious. So this is a major complication and I think this shows why Freud had to introduce this second model of the mind, because in his first model of the mind it was very simple and repression was the force that distinguished conscious from unconscious. But what that model didn't really explain was why repression operated and what controlled repression. Now in the second model of the mind, what controls repression? What sets repression in force? What directs repression? Which agency?... Erm, yes, that's correct. Er, but, but and there are two buts here. The but is the superego is a part of the ego so we have to er before we go on to the superego, let's just say for the time being that repression is directed by the ego itself. Now, the complication comes when we notice that there are parts of the ego that are not conscious. And of course the process of repression is not conscious. You're not aware of the fact that you're repressing things. If you are, that is not what the technical term repression means in psychoanalysis. That is what we might call suppression. I mean you may be on a diet and see a wonderful cream cake and consciously resist temptation to eat it. Well, that is suppression. You are consciously suppressing, your ego is consciously making a decision not to do something even though you know you want to do it. That's suppression. Repression would be looking at the cream cake and saying, I'm not in the least bit interested, how revolting, disgusting, even though you actually unconsciously want it very much. And of course that kind of thing can happen. Okay [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, but taking place in the unconscious mind. Th that's the thing you must remember. Now er reminded me of the next thing really I ought to have got on to. In the term, the only term we needed to explain the whole structure of conscious, unconscious, pre-conscious, was repression and we saw that repression was really a key concept. Now, however, Freud expands that concept as well and interestingly enough he goes back to the first term he used for repression. What was, does anybody know what the first term was? What did Freud call it first time round, in the, this would be in the late eighteen eighties? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes,wh in his first papers in hysteria, he didn't call repression repression, he used another term. Can anybody recall? I did mention it at lectures but. Well, he called it defence. One of his first papers was called the neuro psychoses of defence, and defence meant fending something away from consciousness, what he later called repression. In the nineteen twenties Freud returned to this concept of defence as, as has just said, with the concept of defence mechanism. And Anna Freud was to write the famous book called The Ego and the Mechanisms of Defence. Now, what are the mechanisms of defence and what have they got to do with the ego? First question first, what are the mechanisms of defence? Well you used the term, would you like to [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Could you give an example? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, that's right, that's a good example. The, the mechanisms of defence are a concept which overlaps, and to some extent replaces, repression. It doesn't re re replace repression completely because of course repression is the prime and in many ways fundamental mechanism of defence. Because what defence mechanisms do is is as says, is fend the unconscious off from the conscious. And that is, as we know, repression. But, what Freud had realized by the nineteen twenties was that there are lots of different ways of doing that, and has given one example. Another example wh which one can't help feeling one often meets in people in universities is rationalization. The construction of elaborate intellectual er defences which stop people having to think about things which might cause them anxiety, by elaborate rationalization. So erm if you ask them why they don't do a certain thing you get a very very elaborate argument about it, which is often very difficult to er to er criticize or, or, or attack. Another one would be reaction formation, turning something into its opposite. As I mentioned earlier, you want to eat a cream cake, you think yuk cream cakes' re disgusting so there you turn the desire for something lovely into the opposite er yuk hateful. Er, reaction formation, that's a very common one. And there are lots of them, in fact Anna Freud in her book, The Ego and the Mechanism, gives a list, and I can't remember how many terms there are on the list [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] seventeen and since then people have discovered more and in a sense the list is more or less limitless. The point to remember, however, is that these mechanisms occur unconsciously, they're things the ego does to defend itself from anxiety and from and the result of which is to force things into the unconscious. So, repression, it's not that Freud dropped the concept of repression but that he elaborated it and made it much more sophisticated, and the mechanisms of defence are the means, you could say they're the means by which er repression erm comes about. Erm, another example for instance that sticks in my mind because Anna Freud explained this to me, is isolation. Er, she explained to me a case she had analyzed where she, Anna Freud, was quite certain that some of the symptoms of the woman she was analyzing went back to infantile masturbation. The woman denied that this had ever happened quite vehemently. And Anna Freud had great difficulty in suggesting to her that it might have happened. And then one day the, the lady in the course of her associations, described an activity she had often indulged in in childhood. And she had given a certain name to it, and I can't remember what the name was now, something like fiddling, I mean fiddling is too obvious, it wasn't that, but it was something like that, an ordinary everyday term like that. And she said that's what I call you see. And Anna Freud said, okay that's what you called it, but supposing we had to look what you've just described up in a dictionary, what word would be found? And the woman thought for a minute and suddenly she realized and she said er you know gosh, that's masturbation isn't it, and Anna Freud said yes it is. Now this woman had always been aware of the as a child, she had always known it, it hadn't be unconscious in the sense she'd forgotten it, but it had been isolated, it has been given a new name, and ca unfortunately I can't remember what it was, but it was, it was completely er innocuous, the name was the term she used was totally innocuous. And because it had that name she didn't link it up to other terms like masturbation or whatever. So it was kept isolated in her consciousness and other, other ideas weren't allowed to touch it, and very often this is how repression works. In actual practice you could find an analysis that very often the things that have been repressed have not been repressed in the sense that they've been totally submerged from your consciousness and totally forgotten without any trace, but what often happens is they've become isolated or, or divorced from their context in your memory. So you remember them but they don't have any significance because you don't link it up with an emotion, or with a situation, or with other er ideas, they're kind of isolated. So isolation is quite a common defence mechanism, particularly in obsessionals, who're very good at isolation. And er this is probably one of the reasons why, as says, they like ritualization and they're very very tidy about. Obsessionals are very good at dividing up their minds as it were, but they're not necessarily divided up in the sense of conscious and unconscious. Very often they're, they're kind of divided up in this isolated way. So erm the mechanisms of defence are the means that the ego uses to stop itself being worried by any, anything that might seem to, that might seem to throw them. And another advantage of these mechanisms of defence is they apply to other inputs to the ego, not just those from the er from the unconscious or from the organism itself but from the outside, for example the denial is a defence mechanism that can be used against reality and is used by psychotics to great and often disastrous effect. They simply deny things in the real world they don't want to recognize. Okay, so that's, is everybody getting a feel now for, for mechanisms of defence?? [speaker001:] Yeah, in all, in all system you know we have er the pre-conscious and the unconscious [Chris:] Yeah [speaker001:] so, and we were repressing, repression was pushing into the unconscious, so does the unconscious still exist as a place where we repress everything? [Chris:] Yes it does. I think what we have to say is that the term unconscious is, is still used by Freud of course, and is still very useful, and it, it describes er if you like erm a relationship between levels of consciousness. The superego model doesn't do that, as we've seen, because a lot of the ego is unconscious as well as all of the conscious being ego. What it does is talk about psychological agencies, so what we've got here is two overlapping er models of the mind if you like, but they're somewhat different models. One is in terms of er levels of consciousness, the other is in terms of agencies that do things. They overlap but they're to some extent slightly different criteria. Does that [speaker001:] Yeah, so the new one doesn't replace the old one? [Chris:] It doesn't replace one, it overlaps it, it overlaps it. And this is confusing, I mean I must admit it is confusing and even, even s writers in the psychoanalytic literature get confused by this, because sometimes they, they er don't see that to some extent the two systems are overlapping and to some extent they're about di slightly different things. Okay, we we've talked about the ego. Er, what about the id? What's the id? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] I didn't understand that. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah, it does mean something. What di what does the word id mean? It's not an English term, it's a Latin term. What does it mean in Latin? It. Yes. And in German, the German for, for it used was das es. E S is the German pronoun for it, third person singular pronoun. It. And in German, Freud just says das es. The it, as it were. Freud's English translators er attempted to Latinize for him, make it more kind of medical, they introduced some ridiculous terms like which is pure gobbledegook and is not found in Freud f er the terms of Freud's which correspond to those are not er observed Latinisms like that. Unfortunately they did it to, to er these terms as well, so they turned das es, the it, into id, which is Latin for it. But we're lumbered with it now, and I don't think we can change it. I mean it's a pity. It's a pity it wasn't just translated the it. It would've been better but erm I think that these terms have now become so widely known there's, there's no way of changing it back. Although erm I don't think I like, I never use that term and I hope it passes over. It's just ridiculous. Erm, okay, so, so that's what, what the term... now, what does it mean, erm, could you hazard a description or definition of the id, or das es? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] I D, yeah, in a way that's true yes. But there's a bit more to it than that. It certainly is everything that has been fended off by the ego, so to that extent it, it corresponds more closely to erm to the unconscious. In the first model of the mind, remember we said that the unconscious was everything that was either primarily unconscious, could never become conscious, or had been forced into the unconscious by th by means of repression. Well, the id is, does represent the total unconscious that has been repressed. Not the unconscious part of the ego of course which is doing the repression, this is regarded as a separate agency. But nevertheless everything that has been repressed into the unconscious is in the id. So to that extent, you're right. What else would we expect to find in this id? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, the instinctual that's right, this is a very good portrayal of it is giving us. The instinctive, the, the er everything that has been excluded from consciousness. Consciousness and, and the ego operate on the basis of what Freud called the secondary process. Now, the secondary process was that basically logical realistical thinking. It's the kind of thinking you want to completely dominate your activities when you're writing exam answers, okay? Clear, lucid, logical, erm, remembering facts, open to reality, lucid. That's the secondary principle... in the unconscious and the id the primary principle. So the primary principle is actually the opposite of that, it's irrational, it's illogical, it can think er six impossible things before breakfast and not have the slightest difficulty with it. It's a kind of Alice in Wonderland world of er of, of extremes, of opposites, and the primary process can tolerate these contradictions er with complete ease. It doesn't er it's not bothered by contradiction. It's not in the same tradition as, as, as the ego. Er, an analogy that I think helps to make this clear is that the ego after all is a managerial agency. Now, if you're charged with managing anything, you have to make decisions and when you have to make a decision, you can't have your cake and eat it. You've either got to eat the cake, in which case you no longer have the cake, or you decide to preserve the cake, in which case you can't eat it. You can't do both at once. In a real world where you face managerial decisions and you have to make a decision, you can do one thing or a number of other things, but you can't do them all at once, it's just not possible. If you try to, the result is a disaster. Now, the id is not like that. The id is not a managerial agency, it does not have to make decisions, it is not in contact with the real world and therefore it can have its cake and eat it. It really doesn't bother the id. So the id is a jumble of contradictions and the reason it's a jumble of contradictions is that it's not in contact with reality. It's a bit like political parties who have no hope of ever being elected making wild promises. I mean, of course they can, they can make all sorts of wild promises and all kinds of crazy policies because they know they'll never be called upon to carry them out. If, however, you get elected and you then have to carry out your policies, then of course you face the real world and the you can't have your cake and eat it problem. Let us see how Bill, Bill Clinton fares in this [speaker001:] True [Chris:] er, my guess is not all of his promises will, will turn out to be realizable. And that's, that's, that's what the ego is like. The ego, to use another analogy er I use, is like the President of the United States. The ego is the executive agency, the id could be regarded as something like the Congress, as o which er seen as a, as a large mass of conflicting demands. You know, there're people in Congress want all kinds of different things and they can't all have them at once, but that doesn't stop them all wanting them. [speaker001:] Is, isn't the id ever conscious? [Chris:] No. [speaker001:] For example, there's a piece of cake in front of us and, and you know you just want it so badly and you just eat it, or even having sex, anything, I mean any desire that you have that you just follow. [Chris:] Yes. [speaker001:] without thought, without, I mean, perhaps without even thinking of the consequences. [Chris:] Yes. [speaker001:] Isn't that partially id? [Chris:] Well no, you see what's happening there is, is a, a demand or a drive from the id is being gratified by the ego. What, Freud would regard that as a situation in which the ego had surrendered to the id and said okay eat the cake. And of course the ego has to do that, I mean if you're gonna stay alive, the ego has to take account of these internal demands. The difference between the ego and id however is that if that is gonna happen in the real world, there has to be a cake there for you to eat. If the id is completely in control, and in psychotics for example, you often get the feeling the id is in control, they will eat the cake even if it's not there. So they'll have an hallucination of eating the cake and say yummy isn't this cake lovely, and you and I can see there's no cake there. Now that person is under the control of, of, of the id. There the ego has become so fragmented and is so er erm sick as it were that the id has overwhelmed it and the reality sense is lost. There perhaps you would say the id is beginning to dominate the ego, but in accepting these extreme cases of, of psychotics who are severely divorced from reality, the, what always happens is the id has to make a demand on the ego which then gratifies it. The reward however, well what's the reward? What reward does the id give the ego when it's gratified? [speaker001:] Pleasure. [Chris:] That's right, the, the, the id rewards the ego as it were with a feeling of pleasure when it's when it's met its demand. When it doesn't meet its demands, the ego is likely to feel anxiety or discomfort or whatever it may be. It certainly [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] They can be gratified too, of course. [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, because [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] oh yes, because you see the ego is in charge of the voluntary muscles and these are the ones you've gotta use in aggressive behaviour. So, er er aggression again can be seen as a demand placed on the ego by the id, or for erm release as it were, when an ego erm goes and does something that, that releases the aggression. And if you can't do it, er you know very often it, it, it shows itself in other ways, like people stamp their feet or they begin to shake with rage. When you can't do something you know, you might actually kind of, your whole body kind of starts to, and that would be the ego as it were trying to express this, this er drive from the id. Of course, sometimes when that happens I mean the ego kind of gets carried away with it to some extent, but that's all, you know that's in the nature of the ego. It is I'm afraid a rather, compared with the id, it's a rather weak agency. You know, very often Jim does things on the Enterprise he doesn't want, want to do you know, but he just has to do them unfortunately. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, when it, when it is irrational it is operating either under the influence of the id or it's overwhelmed by some external circumstances that it just can't understand the controls, therefore making all the wrong decisions and acting in a completely inadequate manner. Okay. What about the third agency then? The one we mentioned earlier, er the superego. Again this is a Latinism er what's it, what was Freud's original term in German, does anybody know?... The ego was das auge, the eye, the id was das es, the it, what's the superego? That is in German. Got any German speakers here? Just one? Well, it was uber auge, rendered into English, superego. Okay. What is the superego? Again this is a term that's passed into everyday speech. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] It's the conscience. It certainly is. That is the, that's the aspect of it that's passed into everyday usage. It's er and it is in many ways the kernel of the of the concept. also said a sensor. The er, to revert to my American constitutional analogy, which is quite a good one actually, if, if the Congress represents the id and the President represents the ego, then the superego is represented by the Supreme Court. Because the Supreme Court, I think I'm right in saying, with my knowledge of the American constitution, erm it has er supremacy in matters that affect the law and constitution, doesn't it? I mean it can, it can, it can constrain the President, can't it? I mean, there are, are certain things he can and cannot do aren't there? Laid down by the Supreme Court. And of course, it represents the morals, ethics and law of the nation and similarly in the, in the mind superego represents the moral values, the aesthetic values as well, and the sense of right and wrong in the, in the individual. What else does the superego do, because it certainly does all of that, but it has other functions. We mentioned one of them earlier. It punishes er how does it punish the ego? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, that's right, yes. Guilt is the prime means that the superego has to punish the ego and er as says, guilt, you can be made to feel guilty by external agencies, by other people, but we also know you can also be made to feel guilty by yourself. And this part of your mind that makes you feel guilty Freud regarded as an internalized representation of other people to some extent, and indeed he thought that it, the superego was constituted by internalization and identification with the parents at the culmination of the Oedipus complex. However, it's important to point out here, of course, sociologists and a number of have seized on this as Freud's theory of socialization, but it's important to point out that s s psychoanalytic findings, does anybody know, what do psychoanalytic findings show about the severity of the superego and the type of childhood a person's had? Does anybody know? I think there's now a consensus about this. Could you guess, could you guess? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] But what would you call a bad childhood there though? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] And you, you'd expect that to produce a severe superego? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well it might, yes, yes [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] it might. However, I think what most analysts would tell you was, er but then again it might not. Certainly Freud thought, and I think most analysts also think, that there is no correlation necessarily between the severity of a person's superego and that of their parents. Strictly speaking, Freud's view was that any individual superego is the internalization not of their parents as such, but of their parents' superego. And er I well remember on one occasion in the course of my analysis with Anna Freud I had the uncanny feeling, well this was more than an uncanny feeling, I think it was the reality, I touched the superego of Sigmund Freud because at one point I said something in my analysis which implied that her father, for instance, might have some interest in religion and Anna Freud flared up and what I felt was flaring was her superego and this was the superego she had got by identification with her father. I had the uncanny feeling that the ghost of Sigmund Freud was chiding me for thinking this and she was clearly incensed that I could suggest that her father could have had any interest in religion whatsoever. She totally childish and not something that somebody in the twentieth century should waste their waste, their time with, and for a brief moment I felt the moral force of Sigmund Freud as through his daughter and of course psychologically this makes sense because I'm quite sure her superego was modelled on her father's. However, however, in general analysts don't report that for example children of very strict parents have very strict superegos themselves. Sometimes they do but sometimes they don't. Sometimes they go to the opposite extreme and seem to have a very lax superego because they relied on their parents to punish them, and subsequently have no internalization. Sometimes, as said children can have virtually no proper socialization at all, have very lax or indulgent parents and have tremendously punitive superegos themselves. So, I think most analysts now think that the, the concatenation of circumstances which produces a person's superego is so complex, and there are so many factors interacting, probably along with any genetic factors, there probably is a heritable basis of guilt to some extent, but the, you can't say in a very simple way that a person's childhood socialization will determine every aspect of the superego. That doesn't seem to happen. So the result is you get children from very punitive authoritarian homes with very lax superegos and vice versa. There doesn't seem to be a generalization about this. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Oh yes, absolute shame would be ano we should have mentioned it. I'm glad you reminded us. Shame is another very important way that the superego punishes. Yes. And again you would expect socialization and environmental factors to operate, and clearly they do in a trivial sense. I mean we all live in a society where people wear clothes and we'd probably feel a bit ashamed if we didn't have to wear any, but if you grew up in a society where nobody wears clothes, you wouldn't, wouldn't bother about it for one moment. But those kinds of relatively trivial aspects of socialization cl clearly affect it, but again shame can be a much deeper emotion in people and some people you know get, irrationally get very shameful about certain things that other people don't, and you wonder why. And again, it's a complex issue. It's not easy to predict why shame should operate one way or, or another and although it has something to do with the superego, you can't just say well the superego is er purely the result of erm of, of socialization, if you have strict parents you have a strict superego, it's not that simple. So erm, that's an important point to bear in mind. The parents do contribute an awful lot to the superego but they don't seem to contribute everything, and the superego remember, is formed by the ego through an active process of identification internalization and there the ego itself is, is a factor and I think mentioned this. I'm pretty sure she did and that was an important and excellent point to make. Another thing that the superego does that we, we should mention because it's often forgotten, is to provide the ego with a sense of reality. Now, of course to some extent the ego gets its sense of reality from the senses, from its direct observation of the world, but not entirely, and the reason for this, Freud thought, was that as children we learned that reality through direct experience is very important, but also through teaching and education from our parents and as a result parental authority represents the demands of reality. You know very often a parent, if a parent senses a child it's partly in the interests of reality you know, like I say to my younger son you know, look if I buy you a third Big Mac, let's face it, you won't be able to eat it. Okay, I'm speaking on behalf of reality. Occasionally I might buy him the big third Mac, the third Big Mac, just to prove to him he can't eat it, and this establishes in the superego a, that the, the superego to some extent speaks for reality and, and the reality sense is part of the, is part of the standards which are built into, which are built into the superego, and to, and therefore to a large extent the superego opposes the pleasure principle that operates in the id. And this is why as I can't remember if we mentioned it now, maybe did, maybe or someone else did, that the ego carries out repression very often at the demand of the superego, so the superego has its standards, its barriers, its sense of conscience, its threat of guilt, and the ego, to satisfy those demands, to avoid guilt, carries out repression at its, at its command, or at its insistence. I think the best way to think of the superego is a kind of sub-division of the, of the, of the ego. The way, to go back to my Star Trek analogy, erm, who in Star Trek corresponds to the superego, would you think? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, you could say that. I would say Spock. Er, er I would say Spock because Spock er is the second in command and he tends to be critical of Jim, I mean he gives Jim good advice. Erm [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Well, that's true, he [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] pr I think Scotty speaks for the id to that extent, for the internal demand, you know how much fuel there is left, that's right. He's concerned with, with, with keeping the ship going, erm, the remit of Spock is much wider isn't it? I mean Spock is more concerned with the external situation, and what're they gonna do, and you know he says Captain that's not rational, or this is life but not as we know it, er that kind of thing. Er er, but er well it's not a perfect analogy but you see the point I'm making. One should regard the superego as a kind of critic built into the ego. It's, it's, it's a bit like erm you know the Catholic idea of the guardian angel sitting on your shoulder only it can punish as well as give good advice and threaten you with guilt. How does the superego reward? We saw that the id rewards with pleasure. How does the superego reward?? It punishes with guilt and shame, how does it reward? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] That's right, feelings of moral er a moral self- righteousness, self-congratulation, pride, self-respect. These are all er ways in which the superego rewards you. So you know when you do something er for the right reasons, you know, you, you feel good about it. You want to pat yourself on your, on your back and think you know what a good boy I am, or what a good girl I am, and of course you're doing, your superego is doing to you what your parents would've done as, as, when you were a child, they're rewarding you saying good boy, good girl, haven't you been good? Now you can [speaker001:] [cough] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Right now again you remind us of an important thing we should've mentioned. Where does the energy that the superego uses, the, the, in the shame and the guilt come from? Where does it get these weapons? Where does the superego get them from? Cos this is important. touches on it now. Can you guess? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] From the id, absolutely. This was Freud's finding. In a sense, guilt is aggression directed against your own ego if you think about it, isn't it? It's, it's beautifully shown in the Catholic Mass when erm they say well it's, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault and where you strike your own breast. Striking your own breast is directing aggression against yourself. Freud's finding was that guilt is, starts off as an aggressive drive in the id that could go anywhere, preferably towards other people, but the superego uses some of this aggression and destructive energy arising in the id and then turns it back against the ego, and uses it to punish the ego, so the aggression, instead of going into someone else or into the outside world, is turned back against the self and to that extent is self-destructive. And as says, in some cases this becomes a very powerful force in the personality, some people mobilize so much guilt and hatred against themselves of course it does become self-destructive. And this can happen. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, yes, I think in, I think in general one can certainly say that the more, and this touches on what said about personality types... if a personality has a strongly developed superego themselves, they're likely to be very independent, sometimes to the point of arrogance. You know, you've met the kind of person who's so sure they're right they won't listen to anything, you know, they're, they're self-righteous and arrogant and that's because their superego is very very strong. A person with a weak superego tends to be much more influenced by other people and especially external authority. And sometimes they need external authority to control them and give them standards and tell them what to do. If they don't have that external authority they tend to flounder. Or even sometimes to actually look for it. They actually look for strong leaders, or they want rules because they feel insecure without them. Is that the kind of thing you meant? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] What if all, if ego and superego? Yes, the ideal state of normality for Freud would be a, would be a perfect balance between the three institutions. If they were all reached in accommodation together and kind of lived together with relatively little conflict. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Oh no, it wouldn't, I wouldn't think of it as an alternative to interaction with other people. I would think of it as er [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Chris:] Yes, I would think that if a person had a normal personality, if the interaction between the in institution and the personality was normal, you'd expect their interaction with other people to be normal. For example, people with very strong superegos would punish themselves and are very often very ready to punish other people too. You've only got to look at the history of religion, especially Christianity, to see that at... as the guys who went round flagellating themselves also went around killing other people if they didn't believe in the right religion and that unfortunately er happens all too often. The reason of course. If I'm punishing myself for my religious beliefs, I've damn well got a right to punish you too. If you don't punish yourself, I'm gonna punish you. And that happens and self-righteous people get like that. Folks, we've come to five past eleven. We must stop. I'm much indebted to you. That was an excellent presentation. Next week we start the second part of the course, our erm, our key as it were and we'll look at the first one with er [incomprehensible]. Thanks very much. Apologies for those who had to sit on plastic seats.... [tape ends side one and starts side two] Okay now erm, there's a slight change of plan because er following one or two of the classes last week I realized that erm I hadn't made myself very well understood last week and er what came back from one or two people was rather garbled, and really it's my own fault because I probably tried to do too much too quickly and as a result perhaps er didn't make myself clear. So, what I want to do is to er really repeat what I said last week but with a different emphasis. And what this means is that from now on the cla lectures will trail the classes, which, which doesn't matter and is actually quite er a good thing in the sense that what will happen from now on is that we'll first do a topic in the class and then I will give the lecture on it the week after, or possibly even two weeks after, which is okay because it means that then in the lecture I can concentrate on filling in the gaps, straightening out the misunderstandings and generally adding to what we did in the class, rather than leading as it were as I have up until now. So what I intend to do from this week is that very thing, try and fill in as it were and er make up for what wasn't covered in the classes because I must admit that this year I've been struck by the high st high standard of the class presentations. So far anyway they've been excellent I must say. So if I trail the classes in this way it's not gonna do any harm I don't think because the class presentations and the class discussions in general have been so excellent this year. So what I want to do is to go back over what I was talking about last week but with a different emphasis. Instead of, instead of giving the emphasis to er what Freud said and trying to rather hurriedly, and as it turned out, too hurriedly, er fill in as it were the, the background from the point of view of modern er modern understanding of the evolution of sex. What I want to do is concentrate on the modern sex theory and then er explain that and then relate it to Freud. So it's going over the same ground but from the different er different emphasis because clearly my mistake last week was to try and cram in too much and to erm assume that what I was saying about modern sex theory was erm self-evident. Well it's self-evident to me but it's obviously not to, not to other people. Now in order to understand this and not to misunderstand terms, we've got to unders the first thing we have to understand is what Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is all about and the problem with this, and in some ways this is analogous to the problem with Freud, and I'll be talking about this later, is that er when Darwin put forward his Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection in eighteen fifty nine it was confused and misunderstood because of the ideas of other people like Herbert Spencer and the so-called Social Darwinists, who coined slogans like, for example, survival of the fittest. And survival of the fittest has since become a slogan, it is nothing more, a slogan associated with Darwin. Not, it shouldn't be associated with Darwin. In the first place, Darwin didn't coin it and used it very reluctantly. In fact it was coined seven years before Darwin published his theory, by Herbert Spencer. In fact, evolution does not select for er the fitness of individuals, if by fitness you understand what normally mean by fitness and that is health and wellbeing. If it did, however would you explain this? This is a graph, a rather murky one I'm afraid... I don't know whether, is that muck on the screen, or is it on my thing, let's see. No, I think it's on the screen. Nothing we can do about that. Okay. Erm, this is a graph for annual mortality of males and females aged one to four for different years of the twentieth of the century. [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] The only year where they coincide is nineteen twenty, the great erm influenza epidemic actually killed more people than the first world war, and er as you'll see, despite increasing trends in health care which have reduced the overall rate, the difference in death rate between males and females has remained in the same or, if anything, widened slightly in recent years. So in terms of infant mortality er males die more than females. It's not just true of infant mortality, it's true of all mortality as a matter of fact. This is excess male mortality in humans as a function of age and you can see that it peaks in the mid-twenties and the peak is mainly accounted for by violence and accidents and er things like that, risky behaviour on the part of males and er, as you'll see, throughout the life span there's a, there's a positive percentage excess in male mortality. And finally, sorry I had one more and I lost it, no I haven't, here it is. Ratio of injuries to deaths for all accidents as a function of age and sex. And again er male, the male rate is least up until age sixty five. And of course it's er it's a commonplace that human males die more readily than females. If you go to any old people's home and look around you, most of the people you'll be looking at will be females. Males on average die between five and seven years earlier than er females do and males die from all causes that affect both sexes, and some you wouldn't think did, er more than females. For instance in nineteen eighty eight more men died from breast cancer in the United States than died from AIDS. An astonishing statistic. You wouldn't think men could die of br die of breast cancer, but they do because men have residual nipples and they do produce small amounts of oestrogen. So, what does this mean? Well, in terms of survival of the fittest what it means is that natural selection doesn't select for fitness because if it does, what is it doing? Now nature may be feminine by gender but surely not feminist by conviction. Is nature persecuting males? Well no. What is actually happening is that natural selection does not select for fitness understood as health and er individual health er and wellbeing, athletic ability and so on. What natural selection actually selects for, we now know, is the reproductive success of individual genes and in fact this explains all these figures. The reason why males die more readily than females do is attributable to the effects of testosterone and the only cure for this is to be castrated, and the earlier you are castrated the lo if you're a male, the longer your life expectancy will become compared with, compared with females. What kills males in other words, preferential to females, is the very thing that promotes their reproductive success. So this is er this is an interes this is er a critical thing to remember if you're tempted to believe slogans like survival of the fittest. Natural selection does not select for any kind of qualitative improvement. Again, Herbert Spencer believed that evolution was an on and upward process of, of increasing perfection culminating in Victorian man, and Herbert Spencer probably did mean man as opposed to woman. Darwin never a never accepted that one. Darwin erm repeatedly said that evolution was not a perfecting mechanism. Darwin knew far too much natural history to know that was er true. Evolution does not always make creatures more complex, more intelligent, bigger, better adapted to their environment, or whatever. Sometimes it has the er the opposite effect. All natural selection does is reward reproductive success. Those organisms who have more offspring pass on more of their genes to the future and those genes are increasingly represented in the future if some kind of natural factor, like the environment or the climate or other organisms determine who has the greater reproductive success. Today er Darwinists don't use the term fitness. I tell my students during my evolution and behaviour course not to use the F word and the F word is fitness and I advise them strongly not to, and if I could ban it I would. Er, it's not in my nature to be authoritarian with my students but if I could be authoritarian I would say look, you're not allowed to use that word, and if you do you've gotta pay a pound. Er because it's the F word and fitness er is not what it's about. The trouble with fitness is that it leads to mistakes about evolution because it makes people think in terms of qualitative terms. Darwin's insight is into evolution as a purely quantitative measure. Reproductive success is purely quantitative. It is not quality. It is unscientific and wrong to draw any qualitative conclusions from it whatsoever. You cannot do that. All you can say is that natural selection selects for the reproductive success of individuals in their genes and some individuals have more reproductive success than others. You cannot say, as the Victorians said, that this is all bound up with certain races being superior or certain classes being superior. That perhaps was an understandable mistake in the nineteenth century when, for example, in this country the population was expanding very rapidly. But today the fittest populations in the technical sense of the term are the Third World. They have the greatest reproductive success and in terms of Darwinian evolution it is Third World rapidly expanding populations which are enjoying the highest levels of reproductive success. But nobody today would assume that necessarily went along with be better personal health or wellbeing because we know it doesn't. In the Victorian era it did but it doesn't today. So the point I am making is that terms like reproductive success are purely quantitative, they're wholly objective and scientific. They are not in any way to be interpreted as qualitative judgments. There is no room for qualitative judgment in science. I erm like most people in this institution believe in science and think I am a scientist and I have not time or room for such qualitative judgments. If it can't be quantitatively based, ultimately it's probably not worth doing in science. And so the point I'm making is that, is that a modern insight into Darwinian evolution is based on a wholly scientific basis and social Darwinism may have got Darwinism a bad name by associating it with slogans like survival of the fittest, but modern Darwinism er isn't like that. I've in fact printed out a short extract from my new book erm which illustrates this, albeit using a computer program, and you can take a copy of that away with you. It's very short, it's only about fifteen hundred words, and that I think explains it even more clearly. It would take too long to get the computer up and do it for you, but erm you can take that away with you if, if you like, that just makes the same points I've been making now, but using a computer simulator. Okay, so our modern view then is that evolution is all about the quantitative reproductive success of individuals and in fact of individual genes. So that is a quantitative objective scientific and ultimately measurable factor. Now admittedly in practice, measuring reproductive success is a damn sight more difficult than it seems. When you actually have to do it, you discover that there are all kinds of problems with it in practice, but in principle the, the situation I think is completely clear. Okay, now let's, having dealt with the concept of reproductive success, let's deal with the concept of sex. Now in modern evolutionary biology, sex again is based on a scientific quantitative definition, not on a subjective human or qualitative one. And the quantitative distinction which is well illustrated by this photograph, which is completely typical... let me get the one, hang on... right, this is a photograph of a hamster ovum with a hamster sperm just fertilizing it there and you can see that the hamster sperm is a lot smaller than the hamster ovum, and this is totally typical, it's smaller by many orders of magnitude. If you weighed them, you'd find that it was probably a thousand times, ten thousand times less in weight than the ovum and er also many times smaller in volume, and this is typical. In modern biology sex is defined purely in terms of the size of the sex cell and the convention is that the male has the small mobile sex cell and the female has the large relatively immobile sex cell and, with very few exceptions, this is found everywhere, throughout sexual animals, plants and fungi. Some algae admittedly produce sex cells of more or less equal size. When this happens they are not called male and female but they're arbitrarily labelled plus and minus. But plus and minus sex is very rare and er what is called erm dimorphism or anisogamy is the rule. Anisogamy just means sex cells of different size. It probably evolved because if you do computer simulations erm you find out that one of the stable equilibria to which er differing or same size sex cells leads is one with a very large cell and one with a very small cell. It's too complicated to explain er why this happens, but such simulations have been done, notably about Parker Baker and Smith who did the famous one and it does suggest that if you start off, even if you start of with similar size, that is sex cells, they will be driven by a competition for reproductive success to the extremes and you'll end up with two extreme types, a large type proto-ovum and a tiny type, a proto- sperm. So again, sex is defined purely quantitatively, there's nothing qualitative about this concept. It's purely quantitative and it's in terms of the size of the sex cell. Okay. Now, one of the consequences of this differing size of sex cells is that females usually concentrate on parental investment. Now parental investment is a technical concept which we don't need to go into in this course in too great detail, suffice is to say that parental investment represents everything a parent sinks into its offspring which promotes its offspring's reproductive success. Obviously food. Well, in the first place obviously the size of the sex cell Er, er its genes, the size of the sex cell, the food it gives its offspring, the protection it gives it, the transportation, education, instruction, protection, er you name it erm whatever the parent does, in the case of birds, warmth is a major factor, incubating the eggs. Anything that the parent contributes to the offspring which promotes that offspring's reproductive success is called parental investment. Now because of this initial asymmetry between the sexes and the size of the sex cells, the tendency is for females to concentrate on parental investment and males to concentrate on mating success. And the reason for this is that usually the male has a vast number of sex cells and consequently can afford to compete er for er female cells to fertilize. In grasses, for instance, it's not the ovule that is dispersed by the billions on the wind, it is the pollen. The pollen is tiny and minute, so minute that it can get up your nose and give you hay fever, but er you're never gonna catch hay fever from modules because they'll never be released, they're relatively massive compared with, compared with pollen. So what the pollen cells are doing are investing in mating success. That's why they broadcast themselves to the wind. This is the blunderbuss approach, the fertilization, fire off billions in every direction and a few are bound to hit females. What the ovules do is they stay in the grasses and they wait for the pollens to arrive. And this is, this is a typical, this is a typical pattern. So what tends to happen is that females invest in parental,i in their offspring, males put their effort into mating success. The proof of the pudding here is sex role reverse species. Now, there are more of those than you may think. There are quite a few species where the sex roles have become reversed and where males behave like females and females behave like males. One of the best examples, for exam erm, one of the best examples, for example, alright I'll say it, erm, is er, er what're they called now, er sea horse, sea horses. Sea horses are interesting because what happens is, males produce sperm of course, that's why we call them males of course, females produce eggs of course, that's why they're called females. But the females compete for males because the male has a pouch literally on the front of his, of his belly, you know what a sea horse looks like, he looks like a horse actually, not surprisingly, you know they have this kind of, they have a kind of tail and they have this kind of pouch. And what happens is that females, females have pouches that produce eggs but they only hold a small, they only hold a small volume. Males have much larger pouches and what happens is the females compete with each other. As a result they, they grow large, they grow aggressive, and they're highly coloured and they fight each other for access to males. Males erm are rather coy and, and retiring and er submit to er females planting their eggs inside their pouches. So females fight for males and plant their eggs in the male's pouch if he is, if he is er if he is accessible. Then the male fertilizes the eggs once they are inside his pouch and then he looks after them until they hatch and the poor male staggers around with an enormous great pouch full of wriggling er baby sea horses until they're finally born. And he, erm, in fact puts in a greater investment than she does because he has to do the transportation, protection and everything. He has to oxygenate them inside him and everything else. So this is a sex role reverse species where males in fact invest more in offspring than females do and er the females compete for males. The females compete for somewhere to put their eggs. Of course, in er mammals wha you could say what was happening in mammals is that males are competing for access to uteruses. They're doing the exact opposite of what female sea horses are doing. They're competing for access to male pouches, what mammalian males are doing is competing for access to female uteruses because it's only in a female uterus that an offspring can develop if you're a mammal. So the result is that in mammals there are, I think I'm right in saying, no sex reversed species whatsoever, in fact I'm sure there aren't. There are no sex reversed species and mammals have, if anything, exaggerated the fundamental differences er in sex, but I emphasise that this is based on quantitative factors, erm, there's nothing qualitative about this. One of the quantitative consequences of this which I mentioned last week and I, I think may have been misunderstood is what is called variance of reproductive success. If I can find a rubber, I'll write it up for you... I'm afraid my ink, my pen, is running out. Er, variance of reproductive success. Now, this is illustrated by the following diagram which is based on a, on an actual population. This is based on a closely studied population of deer on the Scottish island of which is not inhabited by human beings, but is by deer, and the easiest way to see it is, is at the bottom here. This shows the lifetime reproductive success of er hinds as opposed to stags and what it shows is that hinds start their reproductive life earlier, soon after age two, and they continue it longer, right up to age seventeen. Erm, I don't think they live much longer than that. Whereas stags start their reproductive life somewhat later, around about age three, and their reproductive life ends earlier, around about age fourteen. The difference, however, is that stags are vastly more successful during their usually very brief period when they're controlling a harem of hinds. And of course, as this erm part of the diagram shows, some stags have no reproductive success whatsoever. In fact, in this population, about er half the offspring are accounted for by about five percent of er of the stags who have the best territories and the largest harems of, of hinds. So, although they start later, in fact ma mature sexually later, erm, than hinds do, just as human beings do, where of course males mature sexually a couple of years after females, their reproductive success can be vastly greater than any female. In this case, this stage had a mean number of er calves per year, about two, whereas this hind had a number just under one, which is about right. They normally only have on one per season. And since he would have had several hinds, at the peak of his reproductive career, his reproductive success would have been considerably greater. But, as I said, some hinds will have, er some er stags will have no hinds at all, they won't manage any matings, and as a result they'll have no reproduction success. So again, when I talk about variance of reproductive success, this is a purely quantitative objective numerical measure. It is a fact, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, that in the mammalian species, males can be vastly more reproductively su successful, or vastly less reproductively successful than females. It's not a value judgment, it's a fact. It's, it's reflected in mammalian societies like deer and er there are good reasons for thinking that it also applies to er human beings. Okay. So that's variance of reproductive er success and I mentioned I think last week, I anyway, the most extreme examples of this which is elephant seals where in once again a similar population to this, a closely studied population in California, five percent of the males were found to account for ninety five percent of the offspring in one season. Which suggests that ninety five percent of the males had virtually no reproductive success at all. So that shows variance of reproductive su success to an extreme degree. Okay, now, one of the things, I was gonna say this later but I'm gonna say this now because it fits in here quite nicely, although as you'll see I'll revert to this later, but while we're doing sex theory I'll mention it. One of the distinctive things about modern Darwinism is that it exploded the myth of group selection. Now group selection is, is the idea which grew up after Darwin and remained very common until the nineteen sixties and seventies, that natural selection could act on entire groups or species. In fact it can't. People realized it couldn't when, in nineteen sixty four, a biologist by the name of Wyn Edwards at the University of Edinburgh actually bothered to publish a book arguing the theory, and when Wyn Edwards argued the case, almost immediately most people began to realize that it, that it didn't make sense and that most of the evidence that he thought supported the theory doesn't in fact do so, and today Wyn Edwards has himself refused it, even he now er admits that group selection er cannot work. Erm, and the reason for this, of course, is that, as I said, natural selection selects for the reproductive success of individuals, it does not select for the reproductive success of the group. Supposing it did. Supposing that natural selection was rewarding behaviour which benefited the group. For that statement to be anything but trivial, there would have to be situations in which an individual was faced with a choice between an act which would promote its own reproductive success and that wou wou would injure its reproductive success, but promote that of the group, shall we say by foregoing eating something, by not fighting with another member of the group, by not mating with a female, whatever it may be. All kinds of circumstances could be such situations. Supposing the majority of th supposing everyone in the population did that. They all acted in a way that was in the interests of the group overall, shall we say by not eating too much foods. It would only take the appear the appearance of a mutant, who chose to put its own reproductive success first, for the whole system to break down. Because, by definition, the mutant who was acting selfishly would have greater reproductive success than the other members of the population who were foregoing these opportunities for selfish, selfish gain. By definition, the selfish mutant would have more offspring than the other members of the, of the population, and if they had more offspring, before long the mutants would begin to become an increasing, an increasing number in the population. There's no way in which you can stop er free-riders like that invading systems where individuals are striving for the benefit of the group. It simply won't work. One area where it er absolutely does not work is sex. I mean, if you think about it, supposing sex were for the benefit of the species. Well, imagine how different our life would be for us for a start. I mean, the first thing you'd notice is that erm sex would be something that was, you know, a public duty and an open. You know, everybody would, would applaud any sexual activity because it was you know, adding new members to the human race. Now we all know that life isn't like that. Again, in erm, in animal populations what studies of sexual behaviour actually shows is that individuals are not reproducing the species for the benefit of the species, they're reproducing themselves and their own genes as fast as they possibly can, given whatever other constraints may be operating. I mean you could say in this situation the stag was doing it for the benefit of the species but er you don't need to er you don't need to take that point of view. If you did, there's one fact that you couldn't possibly explain about this. If that were true, why is the species producing a large number of males who never mate? There is no way that you can explain sex ratios on a group selection basis. Take the sea lions. In sea lions only one in ten, sometimes one in twenty, males mate. That means that nine out of ten never mate. Why are they producing males and females in more or less equal numbers, which they are? Surely the benefit of the species would be served by prod producing ten females for every, every male. There should be a ten to one sex ratio. There shouldn't be a one to one sex ratio. But there is a one to one sex ratio. Why is that? Well in the ninet er Darwin didn't know, frankly. This was one of those problems that worried Darwin. He couldn't solve it. In the nineteen twenties the Darwinist, R A Fisher, solved the problem. Again it's too complicated for me to go into the details of this. I'm afraid sex ratio theory is complicated, but you'll have to take it from me that Fisher solved the problem by showing that it would never be an individual self-interest. The short explanation, if you want to know why elephant seals keep er an even sex ratio and not a one to ten sex ratio, even though only one male in every ten mates, is that every male that does mate has ten times more reproductive success than those that don't. In other words, as long as you don't know which of your males are gonna be the successful ones, it pays to produce an equal number of males and females. Because those that are successful will be ten times more successful than those that aren't. So if you have ten male offspring, nine of them will be wasted, they'll never have any reproductive success, but the one that does will have ten times the reproductive success of all the others and you end up evens. That's what Fisher realized. So, the idea that th our modern insight into evolution is, is that sex is an anti-social force of evolution. Now you might think that's a quote from Freud. It should be. Freud, as we'll see, said very similar things to that. In fact, it's not a quote from Freud. It's erm in fact a quote from Wilson, the founder of Socio-biology, the mo in other words modern er Darwinism as oppo as, as a applied to animal behaviour and Wilson's point in saying that sex is an anti-social force in evolution was to suggest that what is really happening is that if natural selection is a question of the reproductive success of individual genes, then individuals should be motivated to produce as many copies of those genes as they possibly can, and that will inevitably bring them into competition with other members of the species who wanna do exactly the same thing. One of the consequences of this emphasis on the individual was to revolutionize biological views of sexual deviation. Now, here again, in the past, group selectionist thinking had tended to the view that all you need for sex if it's for the benefit of the species is a regular male, a regular female, doing the regular thing and er everything will be alright. When you discover er irregular er males or irregular sexual activity, well that's some kind of pathology. That's er something that's unnatural as it were. But erm, just take a quick look at this. Not a very good photo I'm afraid. This is a species called the blue gill sunfish. In the, in this species... there's a female and there's a regular male. The regular male is much larger than the female cos males compete for nesting sites. However, there are two other kinds of males. There are transvestites, or female mimics, who look just like females, are the same size and have the same coloration. They're, they look just like erm females, and there are little sneaks. Er, this one here, which is, which is very much smaller. And they all co-exist. Regular males invite regular females into their nest to spawn, and the regular male swims round with the regular female, as she disperses her eggs, he disperses his, his er sperm and er that's the way it should be for the benefit of the species. Okay? That's all we'd need if sex was for the benefit of the species. We wouldn't need little sneaks. What little sneaks do is they hang about near the nest. When this process starts, they zoom in, instantly ejaculate and zoom out. And believe me, I, when I mean zoom, the whole thing takes place in a tenth of a second. It was only discovered because somebody left a film camera running on an aquarium in which these fish were present and they noticed a blur and when the film was slowed down and analyzed it turned out that this was happening, that a little sneak was going in, instantly ejaculating, and zooming out. In fact the same thing happens with deer. We know male deer develop enormous antler at vast cost to themselves to dominate harems of females, but not all male deer do that. There are some male here who never develop antlers, they look just like females, and they hang about on the edge of harems, acting like females. When the male is preoccupied, when a stag is preoccupied, fighting another stag or mounting another female, they zoom in, quickly mount a female, ejaculate almost instantly and zoom off again. They're called hummels and they're sneak fertilizers. Such sneak fertilizers are surprisingly common and in the case of er sunfish, here is one. These little sneak fertilizers however are young and small of course, this is what they rely on their enormous of speed for, and they grow up into female mimics or transvestites, and what a transvestite does is when a regular male and a regular female are in the nest swimming around together doing the regular thing, the transvestite swims in, appearing as a second female. The male doesn't know that this fish is in fact male and not female, and in place of ovaries this male, which is that one there, has enormous testes. The testes of these female mimics are vastly larger than those of a normal male. This is a normal male and that's his testes, they're quite small. This is a female mimic and er she has enormous testes. And what the female mimic does is it swims in and instead of releasing eggs, which is what the resident male expects, they release vast clouds of sperm and of course fertilize some of the eggs. Now, from the group selectionistic point of view, this is a kind of sexual deviation. From the individualistic selfish gene point of view, it's just another way of gaining reproductive success. And you cannot make qualitative prejudicial judgments and say one is better than the other. You can't say, for example, that a regular male is a better male than the transvestite. There's certain respects in which the transvestite is more male, for example, he's got vastly bigger testes, so if you think that being male is a function of how large your testes are, then the female mimic is the best male. Well, clearly, such considerations are ridiculous and prejudicial and they're not scientific. All you can say is, there are different ways of getting reproductive success and er being a female mimic, or a little sneak, is er, is just one way of doing it. So the, the consequence of this is that if you concentrate on individuals rather than on er groups, you take a completely different view of sex. You take the kind of view that Freud took of sex, namely that sex is, to quote his term, polymorphously perverse, that sex isn't just a simple question of a regular male er doing it with a regular female. Now, another consequence of this way of er looking at it... again, something to which I referred last week, is what is known as the Trivers Willard. Now what Trivers and Willard suggest was was this. They said look, if males can have greater reproductive success than females can, then parents who have some way of knowing that their offspring are gonna be particularly reproductively successful should invest in males, whereas if they have some way of knowing that their offspring are not gonna be particularly reproductively successful, they should invest in females. And the reason, to go back to the stags, where in fact we know this happens, er i is clear. In other words, if your offspring is going to be very reproductively successful then, because of variance of male reproductive success, you should have male offspring. Whereas if you think your offspring are not gonna be particularly successful, you should have female offspring because they always get, get mated in this kind of, in this kind of set up. In fact, this happens. It happens with deer, where female deer appear to be able to manipulate the sex ratio to their own advantage. We don't know how they do it, but high-ranking females in the best harems, that is those that have the best feeding grounds on run, produce significantly more males than they do females. And there are plenty of animal examples. Lot of them. I won't bore you with those. It also occurs in human beings. According to tax criteria, the top ten percent of the U S population produces an eight percent excess of males by comparison to the bottom ten percent. Actually, I think we do know how that comes about. What happens is this. Er, because w er males because of er variance of male reproductive success, another way of looking at it is to say look, males are expendable, you don't actually need a lot of males to keep all your females fertilized so you can waste them, and in fact we do waste them, for example in wars. It's usually er er males that go to wars rather than females, and you can waste them on a vast scale like we did at the time of the first world war and, and find virtually no effect on your population. Erm, the consequence of that is that at conception the sex ratio in the white U S population is about a hundred and twenty males to about a hundred females. What that means is that if you have a spontaneous abortion, you're much more likely to abort a male than you are to abort a female. Partly because there are more males to start with and partly because male foetuses don't survive as well as female ones, as any erm er erm erm maternity hospital will tell you that deals with very young you know, premature babies. They'll tell you that the males don't have the same chance as the females do. So, what probably happens is that women at the bottom of the social heap in the United States, having poor health care, high stressed lives, crime, drugs and all these kind of problems, probably have more spontaneous abortions, therefore the sex ratio away from males towards females, whereas women at the top of the social scale, low stress lives, good health care, better maternity erm medicine, stuff like that, retain more foetuses, therefore you'd expect them to have more males, and this is what seems to happen. If that's a natural as it were adapted effect of the Trivers Willard effect, there are plenty of cultural ones as well. The most astonishing is the case of Rajput castes in Northern India of the nineteenth century. These were high status castes and many of them were found to have sex ratios as low as a thousand to one, sorry, a hundred to one. In other words there were, for every hundred females, er for every hundred males, there was only one female. And they did this by practising er extensive female infanticide. And ratios of four to one were common as well as in China and other places erm, even in the middle ages in this country there is evidence that the sex ratio was quite seriously skewed er in favour of males and away from females. And this is usually the result of female infanticide. Recent data for example, from two hospitals in India, where amniocentesis was used to diagnose the sex of the foetus before birth, showed that ninety five point five percent of all female foetuses were aborted, but not a single male was aborted even though the amniocentesis showed that some of the males were genetically defective. In other words, Indian parents who could afford amniocentesis, the rich ones, wanted sons and they certainly didn't want daughters, because they aborted ninety five point five percent of the daughters but none of the sons, even when the sons were genetically defective. Historical data from a German parish spanning the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries shows that the wealthiest farmers preserved more males but the poorest labourers more females than the wealthiest farmers. Now, if child survival were simply a question of affluence as you might think it was, there's no way you could explain these figures. Because if that were true, both sons and daughters of wealthy farmers ought to survive better than sons and daughters of the poorest labourers. In fact, the daughters of the poorest labourers survived better than the daughters of the wealthiest erm farmers. The reasons seems to be differential parental investment. The wealthiest farmers were investing preferentially in sons and possibly the poorest labourers in daughters. This doesn't necessarily mean they were practising infanticide, although some of them may have been. The, the possibility is that they just looked after one sex better than the other and there is some anec anecdotic evidence that this kind of thing occurs, which I haven't got time go to into because I'm getting towards the end of the lecture. Anyway, you can see the point I'm driving at. The Trivers Willard effect is an inevitable consequence of the quantitative disparity in the sexes and the variance of male reproductive success. Now, my theory that I was proposing last week about preferential parental investment in sexy sons or little boys who showed phallic behaviour, is a consequence of the Trivers Willard principle, because basically what it says is that little boys who advertised, as it were, in their childhood, evidence of their own adult reproductive success by precocious sexuality towards the women of the family and aggression towards the males, might be rewarded by preferential parental investment, a Trivers Willard effect in other words, and if, when they grew up, those oedipal sexy sons were in fact more reproductively successful, then the result would be a kind of self-perpetuating cycle of parental investment in oedipal sons who then grew up to be more reproductively successful than non-oedipal sons and, and so on. In the end, as I said, with that kind of selection cycle going, you'd end up with the situation where all males had the, had that er had that trait of oedipal behaviour. However, the individualistic approach of modern Darwinism which looks at it from the point of view of the reproductive success of individual genes, isn't like the older group selectionistic thinking was, prejudiced in favour of any group. You see, the trouble with group selectionistic thinking is it's prejudiced in favour of big groups. It says individuals ought to conform to groups, because what is good for the group is good for the species and what is good for the family is good for the group is good for the species and everything like that. The modern individualistic approach says there are no privileged individuals in any population. You can't say that males, females, the old or the young a are those who, who carry on their sexual role in a regular way, or those who do it in an irregular way have a privileged point of view. That would be a qualitative prejudicial judgment, the kind of judgment that social Darwinists went in for. Th the modern scientific view of evolution says you must treat all individuals equally because all individuals are equally just the temporary packaging for their genes. It's their genes that are struggling for reproductive success. Consequently, you cannot say that one individual has privileges over another. The consequence of that is, you have to ask yourself, okay, oedipal behaviour is fine for sexy sons them, but what about daughters? Daughters are losing because their parents, perhaps especially their mothers, are investing preferentially in their sons, and we know that happens on a quite vast and astonishing scale in, in societies. What are they gonna do? My suggestion is that penis envy evolved as a counter-tactic, to motivate little girls by saying look, anything that has a penis is probably getting something that you're not getting, you should envy it and compete with it, and try to get those resources for yourself. Such a gene could pay for itself if it motivated little girls to in fact compete with their brothers for what their brothers might otherwise er get uncontested. There's nothing in our modern view of the evolution to say that one party has privileges over the, another. On the contrary, if the gene can pay for itself in terms of reproductive success, that is all that matters. So all I'm arguing is that all such a gene for penis envy would have to do would be to promote the reproductive success of the little girls who've had it to that gene eventually to become established throughout the entire female population, just as the gene for oedipal behaviour, or phallic behaviour, would become selective in males. These are not prejudicial judgments, they're not based on, on value judgments. They're based on simple qualitative calculus of what would happen if natural selection operated this way. Now, of course, it may well be that er all this is completely crazy and it doesn't work that way, and that my hypothesis about these things erm are, are quite wrong. They can be tested of course. Erm, I mean I could generate P H D theses for you by the dozen out of all this. I mean, we could, one of the big problems you know in science is people only start protesting things when they think they're credible, and often it's very difficult to get people, first of all to think it's credible, before they erm before you can get the tests. One test, for example, that I suggested to you last week which would have surprised Freud, is by contention the children who were overwhelmed with parental investment, particularly by perhaps the parent of the opposite sex, shouldn't show much oedipal behaviour. I've said that there is evidence from the studies of Robert Stoller that this is true. Now that's, that's a prediction that I think er you wouldn't make on the basis of the Freudian theory, but on the basis of my interpretation of it, it kind of follows. And there are lots of other ones erm you could, you could, you could make as well. So you see what I've been, what I've been trying to do in this lecture is to explain the, the modern biological basis which I think makes Freud's findings intelligent. Because on otherwise they're pretty unintelligible. I mean, let's face it, penis envy is a is a pretty wacky idea however you look at it, and you can't blame people for thinking, oh you know, this Viennese professor must have had a, had a diseased mind or something to come across such a crazy idea. It does seem crazy. On the surface it looks very crazy. If you read the Trivers Willard erm literature, as I have done, about preferential parental investment in males as opposed to females, it, it starts to make al a lot of sense. Indeed, Robert Trivers in the original path breaking paper of his that launched the whole theory of parent offspring conflict, without knowing it, predicted it. Because in that paper there is a passage where Trivers says, if my theory is right, and basically it's this Trivers Willard thing he was talking about, that parents and offspring will be in conflict about parental investment, he says, if my theory is right and if parents discriminate investment on the basis of offspring success, then he makes two predictions. He said first, selection will select for offspring to know what sex they are and secondly, selection will favour offspring who compete er with the, with the sex er wh in whom the parents are, are erm favouring. Now, he doesn't say anything about penis envy in, in putting that forward and I don't know whether penis envy was in his mind at the time he wrote those words and even if I asked him today, he probably wouldn't admit it. I happen to know, from a friend of mine, that Robert Trivers, long before he was the great evolutionary biologist he is today, when he was an illustrator of children's books, argued the whole thing to and fro with a friend of mine who was a Freudian analyist and he tells me that in the beginning all they talked about was Freud. It was only later that Trivers began to link it up with Darwin. So it may well be that indirectly, whether consciously or unconsciously Trivers' own thinking was influenced by Freudian findings erm, I don't know, I'm pursuing that possibility. It would be interesting to know, but however that may be, it's significant that within this very first paper Trivers makes this prediction and my interpretation of penis envy is effectively what, about what, Trivers predicted. Well, I hope that clarified a few iss issues and made one or two things clearer. They're probably even clearer if you take this copy of my er which I'll leave by the door and er we'll carry on next week. Don't forget, those of you in Tuesday class, next week it's at four P M and not two P M. Thank you very much. [tape change]

[Chris:] What I want to do today. I got some pens, today, which is great. Ah, that's wonderful, ah, of course, they don't work. [LAUGHTER] Ah, that's just... okay, got one that works. I meant to bring my own, but I forgot, and somebody's used the wrong kind of pen on here, so you can't rub that off. That was probably in desperation. Thank you. Erm, I have a pause dubbed, you know in comedy shows, they dub laughter, well, I have a pause dubbed. Makes me think the things I'm saying are very clever. Okay. Erm, right, what I want to do this week, is to go on to the next er, work of Freud's, that follows after erm, group psychology, or rather to the next two, because I'm gonna back these two books together for, hi there,, erm gonna back these two books together, because as we'll see, they, they really deal with the same subject. Or at least they start, both books really start with the same issue, and the issue in question is in many ways, well, you could argue that it was in many ways fundamental to the social sciences. And, and the issue is, question is is what is often called a problem of social order. The problem of order. What this means is... it's the question of how is society possible. Why do people cooperate? Why isn't there total chaos, why doesn't everybody pursue their own self interest at the expense of everybody else, reducing life to a, a state of chaotic erm er, conflict of individuals against each other. This is what is normally called the problem of social order, and of course it's been around in philosophy and, and social sciences, really since the beginning, and er, some of the greatest and earliest works of er, social philosophy like Plato's Republic, are really in part about this er question. How do you, how do you er, create er social, social order. It often leads on to more prescriptive utopian ideas about what would the ideal society be like. But, erm, at the initial stage, the problem of order, really goes no further than asking a factual question. How is society possible? How in existing societies, does order emerge, because, clearly it does. Now, as I said, there'd been various answers er, to this, throughout history, one of the most interesting and significant as far as we're concerned, in studying Freud and the social sciences, was er, that of the English philosopher Thomas Hobbes. Thomas Hobbes, whose dates are fifteen eighty eight to sixteen seventy nine, can you read that? Thomas Hobbes was an English philosopher who er, wrote a famous book called Leviathan in which he explored this er fundamental question of social order. Hobbes conceived of what he called a state of nature. This was in fact, the state in which he thought er animals er existed, and it was the condition to which he believed humans beings would be reduced, were it not for the mechanisms that maintain social order. The state of nature,ac according to the most memorable phrase in the book, er, made life nasty, brutish and short. Because in Hobbes' view, the state of nature was one of chaotic anarchy... in which every individual fought against every other individual in, to quote another well known phrase from the book, a war of all against all. Primeval chaos. So this was Hobbes' view of the state of nature. Of course society isn't like that. Or at least not all the time. It may at times become chaotic and disordered, but that, that's not the normal state of affairs, and Hobbes' analysis of social order leads him to conclude that social order only becomes possible, when individuals give up some of their freedom, to centralize authority. In which in Hobbes' view, should be a monarch, but in principle be any centralized erm, monopoly of er, of force. And by doing this, by giving up their, or at least part of their individual freedom everybody benefits, because law and order can be imposed by the er centralized authority,what whatever it may be. Nowadays, one of the explicit controversies which er, real kind of Hobbesian view, is er, debate about gun law, for example. The there's a widespread idea that if you let people have guns the result will be... more crimes of violence and more murders, and therefore, people conclude, er at least they do in this country, that only the state should have a monopoly of firearms, so only the police and the army should be allowed to have firearms. This allegedly, erm, protests the, protects the citizen, and the, the logic of this argument, is really the Hobbesian argument, that if you let ordinary individuals have firearms they'll go round killing each other, or so it is alleged. I don't believe it for one minute, personally, but this is the, this is the theory, and I'll explain why I don't believe it, later. The, the importance of this, is that Freud is often said to have been a Hobbesian thinker, in the sense that, er without necessarily being directly influenced by Hobbes, he took a similar, a similar kind of view, or at least, so it is said. You could say, that er, a Hobbesian view of human nature, that people are basically anti-social egoistic and er, aggressive, and that if left to themselves, life would be a war, war against all, is what we might call a pessimistic view of human nature. Pessimistic in the sense that is says people are basically nasty, and if society is to be possible, then nastiness has to be controlled in some way or other, and since human nature is anti-social, social order comes about against the grain of human nature as a rule, has to be imposed on human nature. This is why I call it a pessimistic theory. You'll see why in a minute. And I think you can see why I call it pessimistic because, basically it says in the Anglican prayer book, there is no good in us, what's in us is, is bad, in the sense of anti-social egoistic, and if people are going to cooperate and if there's gonna be social order, then as it were, it has to be imposed on them. The good has to be imposed from outside, it's not, it's not in human nature. So this is what I call a pessimistic er, view of human nature, this Hobbesian one. Well, the first book in which Freud explicitly takes up this question in the opening pages, is his book of nineteen twenty seven, er The Future of an Illusion, [writing on board] and his begins, by posing the Hobbesian question, although it doesn't mention Hobbes, but, it's the fundamental point he makes, that civilization goes against the grain of human nature, and the question he asks himself is, how does er, order, morality. civilization come about, and in this book he gives part of the answer, and concentrates on that, and part of the answer he gives is, that it comes about through the institutions of religion. [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] Religion acts as a restraining force on human nature, and er, raises people, as it were, to a higher, to a higher level, by for example giving them more proscriptions, like the ten commandments. So I think it's easy to see that religion fulfils this civilizing socially controlling role, but of course, this has been a popular theme in sociological writing in the course of the twentieth century, indeed, you could go so far as to say this, it is has become a cliche, in twentieth century social science. It wasn't quite so much a cliche in nineteen twenty seven, but erm, nevertheless, this is the starting point of Freud's er, Freud's analysis. Freud concedes that religion does indeed, have this restraining, civilizing role. Well, having agreed with that, Freud then, faces a problem, because the problem he faces is, that in the previous book of his, that we looked at er, that he had published erm, what fourteen or so years earlier, Totem and Taboo where he had talked about the origin of religion. He had given a picture of religion, which represented it as primarily concerned with guilt, with taboos against incest, and as er, representing the origins of civilization in primeval societies like those of the Australian Aborigines, and Freud erm, remarks in the opening pages of Civilization and Discontents that Totem and Taboo was never meant to be a complete theory of religion. He says, all I was doing in Totem and Taboo, was trying to explain Totemism, a very specific form of religion. I wasn't trying to advance a theory about religion in general, says Freud, but now I am, and in Future of an Illusion, he turns to the question of religion in general, not just er, teutonic religion, as in Totem and Taboo, but religion in general. So the question he goes on to is, given its civilizing restraining role... how did, what er, explanation can we give for religion in general? And, his answer to that, is that psychoanalysis can give us a very interesting and unique insight into, into religion, and this was an insight which had [cough] emerged in the course of, the nineteen twenties, following the developments of psychoanalysis that occurred after the First World War, which we've already looked at and is essentially the concept of transference. I don't think Freud ever uses the word transference in the book, I may be wrong, but er, it may be mentioned, I'm pretty sure it isn't, it certainly isn't in any prominence. You recall that transference is a concept that Freud introduced into psychoanalysis to explain the way in which the patient in an analysis, tended to cast the analyst in different roles of different people, usually from their past and usually from their childhood, so the analyst would play the role of father, mother, brother, sister or whatever by turns, very often, in the typical analysis. And I think you can see that the, the word transference here is, is in the sense that transference erm, alludes to transferring something from one place to another, as if the feeling, which were originally experienced, for example, in the family, were being transferred to the, to the analytic situation, to the, to the analysis. So this is how Freud originally discovered transference, as an observation made in the course of analysis, and as we saw, erm, a couple of weeks ago, whenever it was I was talking about group psychology, transference was a fundamental concept in Freud's theory of groups. Because basically what Freud was saying was, the group we create semi-unconscious, the, the family. The leader creates the parental role, the followers play the role of the children, and er, as I pointed out in the, in the lecture when I talked about that, often this is erm, explicitly indicated by symbolic terms, in groups, such as papa, erm, erm,whi which gives you the word pope. Erm, er, class brothers, sisters in a struggle, these kinds of phrases er, refer to this. Well, what Freud does in this book, is to effectively say, religion is a transference phenomenon. He explains the appeal of religion in general to people, by saying religion is a transference. What happens in religion, is that the deity or deities play the biblical role, and the believers and the er, people here below, as it were, play the role of the, of the child. And this makes sense to Freud, because he believes that people believe in, in religion because of the gratifications it gives them. For example, if you believe in religion, you believe that the world and life has some kind of order and meaning. If you don't believe in religion, you might think that er, the world was just kind of here for no particular reason, and er, that human existence was just a kind of accident or something happen happened, and er, has no has no greater significance. But if you're religiously inclined, then clearly the universe looks a bit different, because the universe has a creator, and having a creator gives it some kind of meaning. It implies for example, it was created for some kind of purpose. So Freud says, religion giv gives people a sense of meaning. It explains the inexplicable. Where do we come, you know, it's, it's, it's, it answers the life, the universe, and everything questions, you know. Why are we here? You know, where do we come from? The kind of thing you ask yourself when you've got a bad hangover. You know, wake up on a Monday morning, with a bad hangover, and you think, oh my god, you know, what is life about, is it really worth going on? Er, this is the kind of life, universe and everything question. However, religion can, can do a lot more than that. For example, many religions, er, give people reassurance in the sense that, for example, not only do they say there is a, a god, or gods or whatever there may be, but these er, deities play a providential role. They provide for people. Many religions, certainly Judaeo-Christianity in the religions of that tradition, which of course includes Islam and Mormonism, are some of the worlds most important religions. Er, these religions certainly, and many others for that matter too, portray the divinity as providential, as providing the world for human beings and as being concerned with human welfare. [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] Well, this is, is very reassuring, says Freud. It's nice to think, you know, there's someone up there, sitting in the cloud, watching over us and providing, as it were. This is er, this is a great reassurance. Again, the, the deity, in many religions is regarded as er, enforcing morality and justice, if not in the here below, then very often in the hereafter. So many religions, such as the religion of Ancient Egypt, for instance,whi which made a great fetish of this, has a belief in a judgment after death, followed by eternal retribution... er, heaven effectively for the just and er, damnation effectively for the unjust, and some religions like Catholicism stick in an intermediate state... pur purgatory, where you can work, work off a sentence, as it were, for a few, for a few thousand years. Kind of a heavenly parole system. And if you work off your sentence of pur you get parole to heaven at the end of it... which is very nice. Erm, but you see the point I am making, the idea is that er religion appeals to people, because they, they see the in injustices of the world, erm, you know if er, er, injustice is an, is an inevitable, erm, experience, erm, some of us erm, might be inclined to think especially if you live under the British system of er criminal justice, and so if you can't get justice here, perhaps you can after death, because god is ultimately just, and no mistakes will be made in heaven, as it were. Er, there, er, the er sinners will be published, erm, [LAUGHTER] the sinners will be published, er, sorry, that's a, that's a good point, see if I can remember that. Sinners will be published, er... punished, the sinners will be punished, and er, the just will be erm, just wi will, er will er will be rewarded. So that's another great, wishful thought, the great gratification. Particularly if you have a sense of injustice... in life. Again, religion appeals to people, erm merely in the idea of an afterlife. After all, er, the idea of death being the end of everything, isn't particularly gratifying to people, but er, the idea of an afterlife is, is very much more appealing, because it means death isn't the end, it's just a kind of transition from one state to another, and it's nice to think that er, there could be an afterlife, particularly if you can look forward to it, erm, in a, in a better place than here. So in all these kinds of different ways, religion provides succour erm, gratification and er, is the fulfilment of people's wishes, particularly th their frustrations, their erm, feelings of er being the victims as it were, of the world, can be satisfied to some extent by religious belief, which holds out some, some prospect of [cough] and hope, at least in the afterlife, if not, if not in this life. So said Freud, it's no wonder that people believe in religion, because religion can provide you with a lot, with a lot of gratification, but the fundamental... psychological explanation for this, says Freud, is that these feelings that religion gratifies in adult life, are transferences of feelings that we all had in infancy. In other words, these things I've been talking about, map, if I may use that concept again from mathematics, they map to earlier feelings. Feelings in early childhood, where we were, indeed, helpless, where the world was, in fact, meaningless, where we were er subject as it were to erm, the arbitrary erm to, to, to arbitrary fate, and felt it because we were young children, but in which there really was a power that looked after us. There was a power that was providential, would provide for us. We did have er, judges and censors who would judge us and reward us if we d did good and punish us if we did evil. We did live in a state, where there were others knew more about the world than we did, and could make sense of it for us. Those were our parents. So the parents, says s says Freud, play the role in th the reality of infancy, that the deity, or deities play in the fantasy or illusion of, of religion. Religion creates the illusion, that those parental forces which were indeed watching over us and guarding us while we were young, still do so in adult life. And Freud is careful here to use the word illusion. He distinguishes in the book between an error an illusion and a delusion. An error he says, is just a factual misapprehension, but er, you know, you could say er, the capital of Australia is Vienna. Well that would be an error, because it's actually Canberra, but you could be, you yo that's, that's a mistake er, that anybody could make. However, erm, thinking that er, one day, er, you might marry erm, a prince or princess, Freud says is an, is an illusion, in the sense that er, people do sometimes marry princ princes and princesses, it could happen, it's not very likely to happen... to any particular individual who might have that wish, but it could happen. Erm, as we know does happen. Not for long actually [], but it does happen. Erm, so that's an illusion, a delusion, in other words, an illusion is something that could happen, but the difference between an illusion and an error, is an error is just a cognitive mistake, an illusion is a cognitive mistake that is kept going by a wish. An, an illusion, erm, presupposes that there is some kind of er, of wish er,under underlying it. And the wish keeps the illusion going as it were. A delusion, on the other hand, is a, is a much more serious kind of factual error in which the element of wish fulfilness becomes so strong that it won't countenance any evidence against it. So a delusion is something that people insist on believing, erm, no matter what. For example, erm, in erm, paranoia, delusions of persecution where people believe that [cough] is plotting against them, and no matter what you do, erm, you know if you said well look, we can prove to you we are not plotting against you, the paranoic says to you, why do you want to prove this to me, if it's not true, you know. You can't win. Not against a delusion. So Freud is not saying religion is a delusion or an error, he's saying it's an illusion, and it's an illusion because it's a factual mistake maintained by wish fulfilment. It's a factual mistake, of course, because er, there aren't in fact deities looking after us in the way there were parents in, in childhood. Our parents after all, were, were real people. They actually existed. Whereas erm, divinities exist only in people's er, hopes or imaginations. They don't er, you can't see them in the same way you could go and see your parents. And er, this illusion is maintained according to Freud, because of the wishes that people have. These wishes go straight back to childhood, and... so religion represents a transference from childhood and a kind of emotional infantilism in which people try and make out that they're still children, as it were, even though they, even though they really aren't. [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] And then of course, the other characteristics that go with religion, and that he had emphasized in other books on Totem and Taboo, like guilt, the feeling that you ought to obey the moral commands... of the parents, because after all the parents weren't just benevolent entities who looked after you and rewarded you and praised you, but they were your judges and censors as well. They punished you when you did... the wrong thing, and they rewarded you when, when, when they did, when you did the right thing. So the believing in religion with, with moral codes, particularly in those religions which have rather strict moral codes, and demand quite a lot from the believer, in terms of adherence to the er, to the moral law... even those religions can be explained in terms of Freud's transference theory, because that too, comes from childhood. The thing that you have to obey, if you don't obey you will be punished. That too, is a transference from the childhood situation, where the child is under the authority of the parent. In adult life the, the, the authority of religion stems from this, from this transference effect. Now here of course, and, and by now we've reached the closing pages of the book, though it's actually quite a short book, erm, it doesn't take very long to read. Here, Freud in terms of paradox, because on the one hand, he started out asking the problem of order. How is order possible, and answered it in part, by saying, well, religion is a civilizing order creating force. In the next step of the argument, he then said, well, religion is a transference, and therefore a form of infantilism, so now he seems to be criticizing religion, but if he's criti criticizing religion by saying it's an illusion, surely he's jeopardizing civilization, because the danger, as he points out in the book, if you take religion away from people, you say, look, this is just an illusion, God doesn't exist. The ten commandments are just a myth... it carries no more force whatsoever. Might the consequence of that be, that people then... go out and murder and steal and rape and... fight wars, and do all, do all these kinds anti-social things? In other words, if you say, religion is an illusion, are you undermining and destroying social order? This is a... this is a paradox that Freud has to face up to. And in the closing pages of the book, he answers this... this er, problem, by saying, well look, er, you don't have to base morality, civilization, and social order on an illusion. On the contrary, Freud says, basing it on an illusion is, is very very dangerous. Because you see, the thing with illusions is, it's okay as long as people believe. For example, you know, you could frighten a child into... I mean this is not an, an analogy Freud uses, this is one I thought of, but it's in the same spirit as his argument. You could, for example, frighten a child into conformity with your wishes by saying that erm, you know, if, if the child doesn't go to bed at the right time, the bogie man will come and eat them up, or something. You might say something like that. And I can remember being frightened of the bogie man when I was a little er child. My elder brother used to terrify me with it. Erm, okay the bogie man would come and eat me up. Erm, well as long as the child is, is young enough to believe in the bogie man, everything is fine, and that child may well go to bed on time and er, and er, shuts its eyes and goes straight to sleep... er in fear. But what happens if the child matures a bit, and realizes that the bogie man is just er, just er an invention, created to, to set fear in it? In the first place, says Freud, the child won't obey any longer, necessarily, because now he's got nothing to fear, and secondly, a child might resent the lie that has been told to him. You know, I was told about the bogie man, but the bogie man, I now know, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't exist. So, Freud says, trying to build morality on the basis of religion, is like trying to build a house on sand, because the foundations won't hold. The foundations are illusory. What we need, says Freud, is a sure foundation for social order, and the only foundation that will do is, is reality. The trouble with religion, is that transference is based on an illusion and it serves the pleasure principle ultimately, because it's a tremendous wish fulfilment. Wish fulfilments as we know, and what we saw about dreams and so on, so the pleasure principle that reigns in the unconscious. And as we saw, the unconscious is out of contact wi with reality and so need take no account of it. However, says Freud, ideally, morality and social order should be based, not on the pleasure principle, but on the reality principle, and, and, and he ends up with... this book invoking the idea that science should replace erm, religion in, in this respect. In other words that science should establish insights into reality which make social order erm, both possible and well founded. Now in this particular book, Freud doesn't say very much about what these insights er, are. And er, as you'll see, probably next week's, I'm not going to get to this now, er, next week, or possible the week after, even, depending on how long it takes me to get there, I will suggest to you that the revolution now taking place in behavioural science, does suggest wh what they are, and that there are in fact some deeply countering intuitive insights, erm, into this whole issue, which have only emerged in the last few years. But er, this is just by way of an anticipation, the... the general conclusion comes for instance, in this rather generalized book, and relatively short book, is that we ought to base variety and social order on science, and its insights, and certainly not on, on religion, and, and there he, there he leaves the question. However, he takes it up again, at much greater length, in his next book of nineteen thirty, Civilization and its Discontents. [writing on board] This book erm, begins, once again with the Hobbesian problem. The,wi with the, with the question of social order. Only in this book, it comes out even more clearly. Civilization, says Freud, is based on the suppression, repression and inhibition and frustration of the id [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] people's individual er, drives, especially their sexual and aggressive drives, which are deeply compromised by having to live erm, in a civilized er, society. So er, in so far as human nature can be equated with the id, it seems to me, perfectly correct to say that Frob erm,Frob I was going to say, Freud, Freud was a Hobbesian thinker. Hobbes was a Freudian thinker, no. Freud was a Hobbesian thinker, erm, in the sense that the id, certainly was egoistic, anti-social and everything that Thomas Hobbes said about human nature, er, could apply to the id, that's perfectly true, and most people see this, and it's er it, it's a commonplace, particularly in the social science writing on Freud. And a lot of the book is concerned with developing this theme, and that I thought came out quite well in the classes, so I won't bother to repeat all that, because I thought we did that fairly thoroughly in, in the class. I don't want to waste your time. What people don't notice, however, and is so important, is that the id is not the only institution of a personality. As we saw, there is a second area of a personality, which psychoanalysis during the nineteen twenties and thirties was exploring actively and this is the ego. If we now look at the ego, as opposed to the id, then immediately we see that it is, it is emphatically not true to claim that Freud was a Hobbesian social thinker. Because the ego was not anti-social but pro-social, and we've already seen er two ways in which that is true. When we looked at group psychology and analysis of the ego, we saw that it was processes that occur in the ego, such as identification and projection, that make social groups possible, that bring about the social order of psychological groups. So that makes the ego pro-social, and in Future of an Illusion, we saw Freud arguing, that there were fundamental pro-social currents of feeling in the ego, in terms of the ego's wish fulfilment for, for example, a benevolent god, a divine justice and things like this. These are wishes of the ego, and they're gratified in the illusion of religion, but as we've also seen, Freud erm, notices even though he doesn't comment, that the illusion of religion is pro-social, in the sense that it maintains social order, systems and morality, and so on. So it seems to me that those sociologists, and there've been a lot of them, who have taken the view that Freud like some other social thinkers, like any of their kind, for example, was a, was simply a Hobbesian thinker, hadn't really read their Freud, or at least they hadn't read their Freud after about World War One. You could certainly take that view of Freud, and it would have been true, perhaps, if Freud had died er, before, er, nineteen eighteen, shall we say, or in fourteen. Then I think people would be justified in saying, well, Freud was essentially a Hobbesian social thinker. That was the time when Freud was exploring just the id. After World War One, as we've been seeing, he was exploring the ego, and... his writing about the ego, in particular, group psychology and Future of an Illusion, show quite clearly that he saw the ego as a pro-social fact in the personality. Something that impelled the individual towards identifying with other people, performing groups, to accepting norms and values for these super-ego, which emerges during this time, and so on. So I think the, the statement Freud was a Hobbesian social thinker is just wrong. It's factually wrong, or at least it's factually wrong, if you were taking note of Freud's writings after World War One. If you look at all Freud's writings, I think what you have to say is, if you want to say that, you must make the qualification that the id is a Hobbesian erm, thing as it were, but the ego is a pro-social erm, part of the personality. Now here, it's useful to contrast the Hobbesian approach, which I call the pessimistic view of human nature, with one that I would call optimistic. [writing on board] Now the optimistic view of nature is the exact opposite. A good example of this, if we wanted to er, have somebody as it were, to counterbalance er, the English philosopher Hobbes, would be the French philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau, writing a little bit later, not much actually... seventeen twelve to seventeen seventy eight erm, about a century later. Jean Jacques Rousseau, famous French philosopher, whose view of human nature, was what I would call optimistic, in the sense that, by contrast to Thomas Hobbes, John Rousseau believed that human beings were basically good. He believed that human beings were born sociable, cooperative, altruistic, nice, civilized and that if, in later life, they showed anti-social selfish, criminal erm, egoistic tendencies, it was because of what happened to them after they were born. It was because of the effects of other people and society on them, that they were corrupted as it were. I once met a social worker, this was years ago, I... I was gonna say, this couldn't happen today, but it probably could, erm, one hopes it couldn't happen today, but it probably would happen today, too. A social worker, who said to me, inside every, every, what she say so... inside er, every juvenile delinquent, there's a little Leonardo da Vinci trying to get out. [LAUGHTER] Well, if you believe that, I think you'll believe anything. But erm, that's the idea, you see, that these kids, er well, you know, they may be delinquent, and do lots of nasty things, but it's only the way they've been treated by society. Basically, human nature is good. This was, this is what I call an optimistic view, and this was Rousseau's view of human nature, that basically people were good, and er, cooperative, and it was the bad things in human nature that had to be explained, not the good. The good was natural. But the bad things, and of course, Rousseau's solution to the problem of order was quite different from Hobbes' . Hobbes' solution was, order must be imposed on a recalcitrant human nature, to make society possible, Rousseau's [cough] theory was, if only people could be liberated from the things that makes them selfish, selfish and anti-social, they would come together in a natural social contract, where individuals would spontaneously give up their freedom, in order to gain the benefits of social cooperation, and Rousseau's view was, if only people were, were fully rational, and could free themselves from the unfortunate effects of, of er civilization, they would enter into a state of erm, perfect society in which they could er, associate er without the, the necessity of things like the state or... or whatever. [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] Very very optimistic view of human nature. Later, erm, this was developed by people like Marx, who emphasized the ec economic role, erm, the e economic aspect of erm, of er, the ill effects of civilization. But basically the idea, erm, is I think well represented by er, by Rousseau, and it's a view that has been very influential, for instance, in modern education, and some people would say it explains the disaster that erm th that some people think er modern education is.... Now, the... these two views of human nature, the pessimistic, as I'm calling it, and the optimistic lead to two different views of the child, as I've already implied. The Rousseau view of the child, is one where children are basically er, noble savages. Are born free, but everywhere in the chain, as to quote a famous phrase from Rousseau, the kind of noble savage view of the child. This regards the child as not in need of socialization or control, but basically er, good in its own right. In the best example, in modern education, is that er, progressive school, what's the school, Summer Hill or... the school where the kids are allowed to do absolutely everything they like. Erm, very revealing. Erm, er, if you, if you know anything about the kind of thing that actually goes on... er, it's nothing like the it's supposed to be. But that was the, that was the theory that it was founded on. That, that, you know, if you give children complete freedom, they will, they will know, as it were,wh what's best for them, you don't need any, any rules, or anything. Or at least er, not any rules they don't impose on themselves. So that's the, that's the, there's an optimistic view of, of, of the child. The pessimist, the Hobbesian thinkers, have a pessimistic view of the child. They see the child as basically a, a little animal, a wild animal, who has to be tamed, and er, disciplined and controlled by er, various means, and er, this is the, I think the view of the child that was more popular in British education, at least traditional education, which erm, for the public schools of Eton, which in this country was based on er, on er brutality, I think there's the only word you can call it. Certainly, I'd never erm, forgiven er people for beatings I got at school. I mean there's downright brutality, and, and, and deserved to be called nothing else. But anyway, the idea that the brutality is er justified, and you have to beat the hell out of little kids because er, if you don't you won't civilize them. This goes, I think you can see, with the pessimistic view, the Hobbesian view, that for civilization order has to be, has to be imposed. Well, where does Freud stand in all this? You, seems to me that, if you think about it, the Freudian view is what I would like to call a realistic one. Because just as I was saying, that Freud's view was that, okay, there's the id and that may be Hobbesian, but there's also the ego, which if you like is, is more kind of Rousseauness... it's pro-social, and therefore I would say Freud is not a pessimistic, or an optimistic social thinker, but something in between. What I would call a realistic social thinker, namely, somebody who saw there is good and bad in human nature. Freud didn't go to one extreme or the other, he didn't go to the Hobbes extreme and say there is no good in us... you know, we're just anti-social egoists, although he did know that was true of the id. Nor did he go to the Rousseau extreme, saying that we're basically noble savages. But he did recognize that there was strong pro-social currents in the, in the ego, and the resulting view, I think, is what I would call a realistic view of human nature. Which I think any sensible person ought to come to, which is, that human beings are neither basically bad, evil, and anti-social, no more are they basically good, altruistic and cooperative. They're a mixture of both. Sometimes, people can be evil, egoistic, destructive and aggressive, and think only of themselves as we know... to our cost, and as we see all around us in the world, from time to time. But at other times, as we also know, people can be remarkably altruistic and committed to others. You've only got to think of the career of erm, Audrey Hepburn who died today, or yesterday, whenever it was. Well, she's a shining example of that. The Audrey Hepburns in this world, may not be as numerous, unfortunately, as the people running around in Bosnia, or er Somalia, but they do exist, and you have to see that there are both of these sides of human nature. People can be very good, they can also be very bad. It seems to me the Freudian view takes both into account. Furthermore, it doesn't just take both into account in terms of some vague philosophical waffle, you know, that anybody could come to, sitting on a bar stool, after they've had enough er, dry martinis, you know as people sometimes good, people sometimes bad. I mean that, this kind of, that, that, that's a cliche. I mean, the Freudian insight is a much deeper one. It says the personality is structured in such a way that there is an egoistic anti-social area, the id. That there is another pro-social erm, constituent, the ego, and furthermore, these are different, and different things occur in each, and different processes occur. For example, the pro-social erm, factors mobilize projection and identification, and the anti- social ones are to do with the instinctual drives, and, and, and so on. So it, it, it's a, it goes much beyond merely a kind of er, cliche, of saying, all people can be sometimes good or people can be sometimes bad, and it tells you about the specific way in which this th this comes about. An example, er, of what I'm talking about, which I think shows this very nicely, and is, is something I wanted to mention, because it's important in itself, is the shifts in Freud's views on anxiety. [writing on board] As we saw, in the early phase of psychoanalysis, before World War One, when it was dominated by the view of Freud and in the eighteen nineties, and when psychoanalysis was mainly id analysis, and concerned with the unconscious, Freud took the view of anxiety as a pathological transformation of the libido. The libido was then regarded as a kind of emotional torrent, that if it was frustrated underwent a pathological transformation into anxiety. Er, I think I mentioned this, I hope I did, pretty sure I did. After World War One, in the second phase of the psychoanalysis, when he was concerned with the analysis of ego, anxiety became a sense of danger in the ego, and the ego felt anxiety when it was threatened, and as a result, there was three sorts of anxiety... neurotic anxiety, when the ego was threatened by the drives of the id... moral anxiety, when it was threatened by punishment from the super ego, and realistic anxiety, when it was threatened by dangers from the outside world. Some early analysts, though not Freud, [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] I, I emphasize, but some of his followers, took the view that anxiety, for example, in children, was pathological, and they, that generation of analysts tried to bring up their children to be free of anxiety, and, and then, you still get this in a lot of popular child psychology today, the idea that anxiety is always bad and always wrong. Anna Freud writing many years later in her classic book, erm, Normality of Pathology in Childhood, erm, candidly admits that er, the first generation of analysts was wrong about this, and she, she, she, she candidly says that the analytic profession changed its view, although Freud never did. Freud always regarded anxiety as normal, but the erm, many of his colleagues didn't, and, and Anna Freud erm admits that er, experience proved that er, her father's original view turned out to be, turned out to be the right one. And she says that attempts to free children of anxiety proved to be emissary. The reason is that erm, if the child ceases to be afraid, for example, of the parents, or of outside, of outside discipline or control, it instead becomes anxious and terrified of its own instinctual drives which it can't control. An anxiety appears to be a permanent fixture in human mental life, it's not one that you can, you can live without. Of course, if you take the Freudian view of anxiety as a danger signal in the, in the ego, that, that makes sense. And Anna Freud's conclusion is, that all children will experience anxiety, but what they experience anxiety about will, will vary, and clearly the best thing is that they experience anxiety about things that are important and are real, rather than anxiety about things that are unimportant and unreal. But in general, she admits that there was, there proved to be no way of freeing the child from anxiety. So anxiety would be, you see, would be something that points out what I'm calling this realistic view of human nature. That the, the other point to be made about the pessimistic and optimistic theories is, they, because they're extremely elusive, they can easily suggest the idea of utopias, and you get two different sorts of utopias. The pessimistic thing was, the Hobbesians always looked back to the past, some golden age of order in the past, you know, when, when people knew what to do and er, and er, things were right as it were, and th they tend to want to restore some ideal state of order and authority that existed in the past, which was much better than now, because civilization has gone to the dogs, and been corrupted and so on. And they look back, and er, these pessimistic views are usually reactionary. Politically, they're usually reactionary. The pessimists want to go back. I mean effectively, I always wanted to go back to the middle ages er, with, with the history books of English society. English society, of course didn't work out that way. The realis the opt optimistic theories, on the other hand, also had their utopias, but they look forward. For the, for the optimists, the, the utopia is, is always in the, in the future, and these people er, tend to be revolutionaries. They tend to say we must overthrow the existing social order and establish a new just social order, when human beings will be liberated from the corrupting erm, alienating er forces, that er, make them bad, and everything will be, everything will be okay. The Freudian realistic view it seems to me, couldn't allow you to draw either conclusion, you couldn't, neither conclude, that things were better in the past and therefore we ou ought to go back to the golden age, nor, could you conclude that things will ever be any better in the future. Anxiety for example, is something that human beings will always experience, and to think that you can free them from anxiety in some future utopia, or go back to some ordered erm, ideal state in the past, where everyone was so secure, that they would never feel anxiety, is just a myth according to Freud. Freud's view is a realistic one of human nature, which says that people will experience anxiety and frustration and er, all kinds of erm, feelings that they may not want to have. But they will experience those feelings, because human nature is not at either of these extreme points, it's neither erm, perfectly good, nor perfectly bad, it's a, it's a mixture of both, and consequently, although you can improve the world, for it doesn't deny you can improve the world, or make it worse, of course. To think that you could bring about a utopia, and perfect human nature in one way or another, is really a wildly er, optimistic and er, is in itself, er, some kind of illusion. Well, at that point I will end what I have to say for today, and er, carry on with this next week. Thank you very much... Yes, yes, you can, can catch me now.... [tape stopped and restarted] [speaker002:] Hobbesian theory being... Yes, that's right, Yes, well, commiserations Er, no, it's a bit tough, I suppose You could bring some evolutionary insight to it. Oh yes, oh yes yes, that's right Oh yeah Are you keeping that sort of thing that that in some ways could be considered to be a system. [Chris:] If I let it run away with me, it might, you know... [speaker002:] tie it up [Chris:] I mean, if you like me to leave your paper, to write to one, I'll be quite pleased to look at it... [speaker002:] Okay, alright, [Chris:] if you want to discuss it with me. [speaker002:] Okay. [Chris:] I mean if you want do a paper for this group, on, you know, on the sociological periods of evolution, and, and how they look from our perspective. You could substitute it, perhaps for that one. [speaker002:] Yeah, okay, okay well look, [Chris:] Have a think about it... [speaker002:] yeah, okay. [Chris:] if, if you want to do a version of it first, I think we, we, we'll appreciate it very much. [speaker002:] Okay, fine, okay yes. [Chris:] in order to get, because I hesitate to give you more work to do, you got enough work. [speaker002:] fine. [Chris:] But, think about it, it could be interesting. [speaker002:] Yeah, okay, sure, fine. [Chris:] We'll have words about it. [speaker002:] Thank you. [Chris:] come on in. Now, I have some good news for you, and you could do with some good news, couldn't you? [speaker002:] Yes. [Chris:] Least, I hope it's good news, from what you said last night, I think it would be good news. I have got you a computer, one of these... would you like one of those? [speaker002:] I'd love one of those. [Chris:] Right, we can get you one. I'll tell you what's happened. The thing is, the school has just launched a, a new programme to lend portable computers to graduate students, okay? Now, we've got one in this department, like this, and er, one of our graduate students was very interested in it, and since she was just finishing her P H D... [tape stopped and restarted] the in some of the ways, some of the most erm, outspoken erm, persons for this, but I'm certainly not alone. There's a growing body now, of people who are thinking along similar lines, and er, so it's, it, it's, I think you'd be unwise to wipe this off just, just as my eccen eccentricity. I mean, it may be that. Look, we're gonna have to stop. we can carry on with this next week, as, as you see, we've touched on a big topic, so we'll, we'll leave it to you to introduce next week's discussion, whatever way you think fit, erm, that raises other issues which you want to talk about. Okay. Thanks very much. And well done that was an excellent... [tape change] [speaker002:] a little contradictory. Erm, I read another erm, book on believing this. [Chris:] Yeah, fine. [speaker002:] Er, I have an example of [Chris:] Right. Could be, certainly quite old, erm, and a socialist, of course. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Chris:] You ought to point out. [speaker002:] Right. [Chris:] Not completely true. [speaker002:] Ah, let me just say what leaders of peacetime Margaret was after early life was that a cold mother who was erm, full of personality People of London biography of the leader of the Conservative, because at least half the book is about [Chris:] That's where it belongs. [speaker002:] Erm. at least not fully in command of ourselves, let alone the social and political world around us. It's certainly wrong though, I think erm, there was erm, the question [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er, but I do believe that made very important the reason, er, the first question is and people weren't reading about that. Erm, [Chris:] Well... Well done, that was absolutely first rate, I mean erm, it was a difficult er, task you had, especially as the book wasn't in the library, of which I am deeply apologetic, because I thought it was, and er, I thought you er, you coped with a very difficult assignment extremely well, and I think you can have an extra and I'm sure everyone else thinks so too. Er, as I have said, I haven't done Woodrow Wilson before in the past, so, so it was an experiment, and erm, I must admit,yo you rose to the occasion excellently. The choice of literature, as you realize was meant to be contrasting, and I put book down as an example of what I thought was the worst possible, er, use of use of psychoanalysis, kind of gutter journalism, erm and which you didn't look at, and it's, it's no criticism of you erm, because er, you had your work cut out with what you did do, but the reason I put down Gandhi's Truth, if anybody's ever read that, have they? This is the exact opposite from, because it's erm, it idealizes Gandhi. It kind of builds Gandhi up into a great er figure, as it were, ignoring his feet of clay, erm, which he definitely had. So erm, [cough] book on which is kind of a character association by a pop cycle analysis and Gan erm, book on Gandhi, which is using cycle analysis, of, of, of, of tremendous contrast. And er, er, the question is of course, where does Freud's book on Woodrow Wilson belong? Does it belong in the kind of erm, camp or not? Well, erm, what do other people think? [speaker002:] But isn't, isn't that the quote at the beginning of your book, er, unsigned quote, erm, doesn't that say something about how, how, you know, long aired radio biography of someone is very political or sort of er, disregard all of the important things they really done, and I don't know, I don't know if it's er, pertinent erm, but obviously, in Freud, Freud wanted to set out to criticize Wilson erm, so he, you know, he went in with it. I mean, he was [Chris:] Yes. [speaker002:] obviously going to buck out of the [Chris:] He was. [speaker002:] biographical allegiance which made him look bad. [Chris:] Yes. [speaker002:] Erm, and er, on other hand he got everything, got his own book out biography [Chris:] Of course, I think if, if, if Freud were here, he would defend himself, by saying I was quite open about my prejudice against Wilson at the beginning of the book, as reminds us, Freud says quite clearly, how he felt about all this. But I think Freud would have also gone on to say that he had very good reason for resenting Wilson, because he blamed Wilson personally for the unjust peace, after er Versailles, but er, was indirectly, many people would argue, going to lead to the Second World War, and er, so Freud's defence I think would be, this man really was responsible. Because after all, the situation in my, I don't know, I mean, I don't know how well you know your modern history. I'm not certain, I'm not a great expert on it, but erm, the situation seems to be, that after the First World War, the central power was Germany and Austria, were defeated. Er, France, er was, er battle ravaged and its economy in ruins. This country was bankrupt, and had to borrow money from the United States of America to keep going, and er, Russia had just had a revolution and was still in chaos. So the United States was really the only world power erm, erm, as were able to do anything. In, in some ways, the situation you know, was a bit like, like what it is now, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, only more so, I would say, because the, the other powers were more, were even more prostrate than is, is, is the situation today. So... for a while, the President of the United States effectively had world power, there was no other power in the world who could stand up to the U S, er, after, after, World War One for one argument anyway, and I think Freud's er, defence disposition would be, Woodrow Wilson was the man who came to Europe, saying he would bring a just peace for all, and went away leaving a total mess, and, and, Freud's er argument in his book is, told us was, well, the mess er, was really Wilson's own doing, and if it was his doing, what was it in his character that allowed him to er,si to on some Lloyd George, who bullied him into getting most of what they wanted. So, that would be Freud's defence, now, I suppose you would have to know a lot more about modern history, to, to know, if this was really true or not, but erm, the... the er, question that Freud was really asking himself, really was, why did Wilson let us down, because Freud admits that he regarded Wilson, when he came to Europe as a saviour. You know, here, here was somebody coming from outside Europe who would bring, you know, peace and justice for all. Let's hope, I quoted the American Constitution correctly, did I? Erm, you know, perhaps the kind of way people look on President today. You know, which is only day one of his inauguration. We'll see what happens to him, President. But erm, that would be for its, for its er, defence, I suppose. Is it fallible I mean how do, how do modern America let's ask er and erm, er and. How do modern Americans see Woodrow Wilson? [speaker002:] Erm [Chris:] What's your image of him? [speaker002:] er, I don't know, I think he forgot you know, [Chris:] Yeah [speaker002:] I don't, I don't... I remembered him having in my school library [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] he was regarded as a very very smart man [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] and er, one of our most intellectual presidents. [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And I don't think, I don't think most people considered him vulnerable, very vulnerable. I mean, they know that working [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But I don't think most people, er, would necessarily consider it than now on the European side, they might consider. Erm, but you know, but I think they did. I think it marks the beginning of the United States their first real world power. So I think that's, that's how he was [Chris:] I see. Mm. So people don't blame him for the consequences of Versailles? [speaker002:] I don't think so. [Chris:] No, no. To answer my own question, I did. [speaker002:] I mean, I think [Chris:] Yeah. No, that's true, that's true. What about er, European history, who's studied this period in modern history at school? Have you? [speaker002:] Yes. [Chris:] What question do you go to Woodrow Wilson? [speaker002:] frankly, he was a [Chris:] I see. No. [speaker002:] everything he wants. But the things is, he wanted to a lot of things about came up like in the middle... [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] ages before the war you more you think about it, [Chris:] Mm. Yes. I see, yes. Anyone else got a view on this? [speaker002:] He was a very odd man, though... [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] as Freud said, that at fourteen adult life [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Good one, doc, yes, [speaker002:] And erm, I mean er, the last eighteen months of his presidency he erm, settled with Mrs Wilson because he would be incapable [Chris:] Yeah, the, of course, er, Freud had one advantage here, and that was Bullitt. Erm, as we know, Bullitt was a member of the delegation and an intimate of, of Wilson, so the book is er co- authored, so in a sense we should know as we're paying for, for all of it, because er, obviously, he relied on Bullitt to give him all this biographical information, and er, consequently what you see Freud doing in this in this book is, is er trawling through, as it were, the things that Bullitt told him, that, that Bullitt had found out, to erm, draw a kind of psy psychoanalytic portrait of Woodrow Wilson, that erm, tried to explain his problem, why did he not deliver the goods as it were. And the... if you put the character of Woodrow Wilson aside, the, the central theme which comes out of this book, which is I think why it's important, worth reading... certainly the introduction is worth reading. There is a three or four page brief introduction er, to the book, which is presumably by Freud himself, because it's about psychoanalysis, and I don't think Bullitt could have written it. Erm, what's worth reading about that, and it comes out strongly in the introduction, is that this is a kind of case stu study of a particular kind of person. Er, er, a man who grows up under the shadow of his father, as it were. So it's quite an interesting, whatever you think about Woodrow Wilson in the First World War [cough] is quite a interesting book, in drawing a character study of the kind of person who Freud must have seen many times in his practice. The man who grows up idealizing his father, and whose relationship with his father is a largely passive one. So he tends to regard his father as a kind of ideal he can never equal, and tends if anything to identify with er, with his own mother, and play a kind of passive role to his, to his father. And this is how Freud explains Wilson's inability to stand up to the other men, like Woodrow, like Cle Clements or Lloyd George, who were rather aggressive, and er, were, were kind of pushing all the time, what they could out of the, out of the peace settlement, and what, er the book shows, is that Woodrow Wilson would have confrontations with them and say a lot of fine words, and then the next day, he would, he would give it all away, as it were, he would, he would be ill or he'll backtrack, or when the actual agreements came to be signed, he, he wouldn't do what he said he would, er,wh what he did. So Freud has to explain this weakness of Wilson, in the face of erm, these much more dominant aggressive men he was up against in these very hard er hitting negotiations, about what to do about the world after, after World War One. So, Freud's view is that he was, this passive erm nature of, of, of, retiring er nature of, of Woodrow Wilson, which explains his inte intellectuality as says, erm, Wilson was a very intellectual man. He had a great fondness for speeches and oratory. Apparently, in his childhood, he'd give speeches to an empty barn, er, had, would stand in the, in the family barn, erm, giving lectures to the hay, you know, and he, he, he loved this, and he, he was, he had a great erm sense of grandiloquent language and, Freud and Bullitt's interpretation is that, Woodrow Wilson, in a sense, was a typical politician. Very good at words, not so good at, at, at actions and actually delivering the goods as it were [speaker002:] So, why, why do you? [Chris:] Well, er... I asked... this, because erm, when I was having my house it came up, and I and I pointed out to her th the astonishing anomaly, I said, look erm, everybody knows about manuscript, Ernest and his biography of Freud mentions it and says he read it and reports rather well of it, actually, was really quite impressed with it. I said knew about it, erm, you must have known about it, erm, that standard edition of the complete psychological works of Freud, that's its title, and you're one of the editors, one of the editors, I said, there's no evidence that you ever intended to include this book in it, even though, you know, I understand that it couldn't be published as long as Woodrow Wilson's family was still alive, but erm, you know, why wasn't it published in the standard edition? And said I don't know. Now, she could have been lying. I don't think she would have told me a, a lie. When I asked her things like that, she didn't want to tell me on other occasions, she said I know that I can't tell you. Er, she was an honest person. I think that's what she would have said. If, if, if that had been the case, she'd say, oh, I do know, but I'm afraid I can't tell you. When she said, I don't know, I think she was telling me the truth, she didn't know. Erm, the fact is, she didn't play a dominant part in the standard tradition, although she was one of the editors, of course. Er, she was mainly one of the editors because she was erm, her father's, you know she even inherited her father's estate. So, so that was in her share of the management. I don't think she'd taken erm prominent role in the day to day planning of the standard edition, this was done by erm, calculable spreadsheet. So erm, I think when she said she didn't know, er, she was telling the truth, and when asked her if she could explain to me, the very point that just asked me, again she said she, she couldn't explain, she had, she she'd agreed, agreed it was a paradox, that she didn't really know erm, why the book had never been published, or... until nineteen sixty seven erm note, note that it, that it had been taken. Erm, my only view is that, er, the reason is that, by the time it saw the light of day, because remember, the manuscript was in the, the manuscript was physically in the possession of the Bullitt family not the Freud family. Erm, when the Bullitt family sought it to published it, it was published, but by that time, the kind of changes that I talked about at the beginning of my lectures, had already occurred in psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis had evolved into a highly therapeutic undertaking, which was very very and institutionalized for therapy, and the black books had already been blackened, as it were. People were already tending to ignore these very works we're looking at, theomonoism we'll be looking at next week, gonna tell us about that, aren't you. [speaker002:] Yes. [Chris:] Another very black book, er, Civilization Discon these kind of books were, er, generally er, at, at er best ignored, at worst disparaged, by the psychoanalytic establishment. So when this book on, on Woodrow Wilson appeared, I mean, it gets even blacker. Er, particularly since it was only half right, or you couldn't exactly tell which half, not very clearly, so if it's half by Freud, and er, it was a book erm, on erm, a controversial figure arguing over very controversial pieces, and I think the psychoanalytic study didn't want to have anything to do with it, and er, er, one of the reviews of the psychoanalytic journal that said that this is the kind of book that gets psychoanalysis a bad name. And er, on the other side, the, the people interested in it in the social sciences, erm, didn't particularly like it, because, at that time, they were heavily dominated by er, Marxist and people on the left. I mean, I myself, for instance, after I'd published my first book on psychoanalysis in nineteen eighty was summoned to the House of Commons by and given a dinner, in the House of Commons Restaurant, which isn't very good actually, least it wasn't then, and effectively I was told by this great man was, noticed, had a very high opinion of his own ego, that erm, you know the left was in charge of psychoanalysis in this country, and had better conform or shut up. My views were not politically correct. And would I please stop publishing on psychoanalysis and leave it to my elders and betters. Like. So I er, I politely told him what he could do with that, well, I was eating his dinner and I couldn't be too rude to him, but erm, you know, when er when, when confronted, I don't give ground over that kind of thing. I said, you know, I'd every right to resume my own research, erm, if the Labour Party thought it owned psychoanalysis, I'm afraid I have, have to differ. So we, we parted on that note. But erm, the people like and the left, didn't like the book either, because it didn't tell their particular interpretation, as kind of left Marxist er, interpretation as someone has it, was so popular at the time. And so the book was just kind of, ignored I think, and left standing, and now it's out of print, and we've discovered this week, it's not even in the university library. Erm, it must have vanished, there was a copy there. Er, so it's, it, it's one of these strangely anomalous works, it, it's, it has spawned, I must admit, some very unfortunate literature, and I think 's own book is the worst example, but it's not the only one. There's a whole area of psycho-history. Has anybody read about psycho-history? There's a whole school of psycho- history mainly in the United States, not many followers here, and er, I must admit, I, I used to have er a class on psycho-history on this course, and I dropped it, and the reason was, I think students didn't find it very satisfactory, and the literature was of such poor quality. It really was er of the sort, you know, if Cleopatra's nose had been half an inch longer, history would have all been different, you know, that, that kind of trivia. Erm [cough] I think you can see that the problem with this kind of biographical approach to history is it can degenerate into trivia. Of the kind that himself wrote of. Which I think is, er, is one of the worst examples of trivial. Because, because clearly, you can see that in the social sciences, there is a big problem. If you think that individual people have a big role in history, like and Woodrow Wilson, I doubt if he did, I mean everybody would admit that these were important figures obviously, but the question is, how important were they, compared with social, political and economic factors, possibly beyond their control? I mean this is the big issue, isn't it? [speaker002:] I thought, like, I mean, isn't the basic idea of psychoanalysis is that, you know that, that these people are repressing something and that's studying, and the question is how well, can you arrive at what they were repressing, by just sort of secondhand, you know, I mean... [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] wouldn't you, I mean, not as so best way to figure out what they were repressing, but just, I mean wouldn't you need to really have the whole life in front of you [Chris:] You would. [speaker002:] to figure out? I mean, we urgently [cough] certainly we can psychoanalyse a group, you know, the group psy the group psychology, because we all understand how groups act, and we can say, oh, yes groups act like that, you do act like that, that makes sense and that can prove it, you know. But with, with a man, I mean, you really need to have every single incident in his life, to, to really know what [Chris:] That is absolutely true. Yes, this is another big problem I think you put that very well, that people forget, of course, that in clinical psychoan analysis the analyst has a vast amount of data, because the patient is going five times a week, or in Freud's case, six times a week, for fifty minutes every day, six days a week, nine months of the year, often for several years and er, the, the sheer amount of data that the analyst gets, is absolutely immense. I mean, I can well recall in my own analysis with, of course, for the first six months she said nothing, and I used to get very frustrated, and say, look, what do you think of this? What's your interpretation, she would say, oh, we don't know enough yet. She said I'm not sure. We'll have to wait and see. And for about six months, I didn't get anything. When interpretations were offered to me, she said so and so, and I said, why, and then she was ready. She said there was this female, that the other thing, and there was a whole long list of things... that pointed to this interpretation, and it was all part of a, as you say a great mass of data, that erm, is, is quite mind-bogglingly large, if you actually erm, see it in words. Erm, it's very difficult, of course, to er, well it's impossible actually, to turn that into er written accounts. Because of course if you were to tape record analytic sessions, it would change that nature of the, of the analysis. And er, one of the big scientific problems with psychoanalysis is that privacy and confidentiality are prominent, as obviously in other areas of science, you can er, the demonstration has to be in public, as it were. I mean, other people can do the experiment or repeat it. Trouble with an individual psychoanalysis, it can never be. So one of the big problems with an historical figure, is that erm, you don't even have that much data to go on, the data you have is gonna inevitably be, be selective and limited. Again I think if Freud and Bullitt were here today, they'd say, well look we did, in fact, have quite a lot of data, because I, Bullitt knew Wilson intimately for several years and worked with him, and er, Freud had rarely the stuff in erm, in all papers of Woodrow Wilson in the library of Congress or wherever they were, and he had a great deal of data. But even so, "s point is a good one, that there isn't, there's seldom if ever enough... this is a small problem in psychoanalysis, I myself hope to put right to some extent, and some of you may live long enough to see this happen, I hope you will. Er, that's why I'll tell you all, I even tell young people. There's no point in telling old people, because they'd be dead. But erm, there are one or two interesting exceptions to this, and one exception is myself, because er, I started analyzing myself through maybe to nineteen sixty nine, and with one or two small exceptions, like when I was being analyzed by and I didn't like it, with any doubt, my entire analysis was being written down. Erm, I guess now in fact, erm er, last few years is all er, is all er entered in data on computer. And it's my intention to keep up this analysis, er, for as long as it takes, probably to the end of my life. And that er, on the centenary of my birth, which will fall in two thousand and forty six, my heirs and executors will be free to er, release it to the world, on condition, however, that it's published complete and unexpurgated and unedited. In other words, if you're gonna have personal, you're gonna, it, you can't allow somebody to edit us out, as it were. And er, if and when it's published, there will be millions of words, I mean there are now, and I don't how large it is now, it's impossible to tell how large, erm, but just a couple of years, for example, amounts to over a quarter of a million words, so if you run that back to nineteen sixty nine, you see it is going to be one of the largest books ever written. And it maybe, if it's ever published, while we're still here in two thousand and forty six, and my executors do as I hope they will, erm, you know, it will be a book alongside Samuel Pepys, and Casanova and Saint Augustine, it's that length. My guess it's as least long as Samuel Pepys" diary, or will be. And I hope that, er, you know, this, all this data will be published, and people will be able to see just what the complete data is. And if that's the case, then in the middle of the next century, more will be known about me, than has ever been known about any other human being. Because I have faithfully stuck to the fundamental rule of psychoanalysis. I have not held back anything. It's all true and it's all right. Of course, my own reputation will be the first victim of this. I will be universally despised. [LAUGHTER] But that's okay, I mean I'm not particularly, I'm not so impressed with the human race that I, I, I think much of their opinion of me anyway. But erm, the great pity of course is, that Freud didn't do this. It's, I mean, Freud we know, did do a certain analysis. My guess is, he must have written an account. It's a great pity he didn't preserve any detail, and he looked, er, like all his other papers had been left in the library of Congress until two thousand and twenty five, and then they will all become public. Erm, that would have been er, really worth knowing. But as I've said, it will, it will be preserved in my case. Erm, it's my great contribution to science, unfortunately I shall be long dead, and many of yo some of you may, I don't know how many of you will still be alive in two thousand and forty six, but if you are, you may see this day. I won't of course. But it's a, it's a problem that, that you've put your finger on, and this is why I personally think that a lot of this literature is of such a poor quality. And certainly this stuff, I mean, when a person's still alive, how can you possibly know enough? You see, Woodrow Wilson was dead, Bullitt had access to a lot of private material that er, perhaps there's still, I don't know whether it's ever been published. And of course, Bullitt had directly observed the man and interacted with him during the critical time at, at the Versailles conference. And the whole book is really about er the Versailles conference in a way, isn't it, and about why he behaved the way he did at the time. So there's a kind of critical period here, that we have got a lot of information about. And in a sense, the book is very one dimensional... in that it follows just this one aspect of Woodrow Wilson's character, the critical one. Now of course, in a, in a complete psychoanalysis, if Woodrow Wilson had been going for analysis, then all kinds of other aspects of his life and personality would have opened up. And you wouldn't get this concentration on one, this one kind of character defect, which er, admittedly, is a, is a problem with the book and, and can make it look as if it is a kind of character assassination. character assassination of Wilson? [speaker002:] Erm, yes, perhaps. [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yes, but Freud does er justify this er meaning, that this is why to form a psychological [Chris:] That's Because of his limitations... [speaker002:] I was gonna further say that erm, you know, beside lack of information itself, information of repression, information into someone's life I mean, repression necessarily I mean the, the thing that someone does in their lifetime might necessarily strange and distracted, and the purpose of the thing [Chris:] Well, yes, that, that's true but I think the, er, by the nineteen twenties, when Freud was writing this book, was it nineteen twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty nine, [speaker002:] Er, well, certainly, yes. [Chris:] They started it, yes. Right, so they, sorry, the early nineteen thirties, when they started it. By that time, Freud certainly had moved on a bit, from the earlier, perhaps rather narrow concentration on the repression and he was moving into the second er era of psycho psychoanalysis when there was an emphasis more on the total personality on the ego and its mechanisms of defence, to quote a title of a famous book by, and I think this is more the kind of thing that Freud is doing in this book, where you, you see not just the repressions in the unconscious, but the whole personality, and you understand it, in terms of its various defensive erm, structures, and the way which it carried out its repression. In other words, you concentrate not just on what's repressed in id, but on the structure of the ego as well, and the superego, and the course of nature part of it comes out in the book as told us that Woodrow Wilson had a tremendous superego in the form of his identification with his father, who he further identified with God, I mean, if I come over very critical indeed, and therefore, his own ego was identified with Jesus Christ. And this, for example, I mean, whether we believe this or not, this Freud says, or thinks, explains why Wilson could come to Europe as a saviour, the saviour of mankind, but then failed to deliver the goods, because of the passive nature of his identification, you know, Jesus got crucified. Which was a pretty passive thing to do, in some ways, erm, and similarly, you could say Woodrow Wilson ended up crucified by the, by the allies. A certain fourteen points for cruci [LAUGHTER] everybody must have that []. And, erm, so this, it was, in a sense it was not so much as what was repressed in his ears, the structure of his ego that led to this unfortunate consequence. Does that answer your... So it's part of this larger view of psychoanalysis that was emerging in the thirties. Where you could have more of a character study, rather than just the kind of erm, capping the unconscious, as it were [speaker002:] Since like what you say, psychoanalysis was now, I mean, is it mostly centred on the ego? I mean, one, since you can't go if you don't [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] would you say that, you know, in modern psychoanalysis presumably just not the, like the structure of the ego, and then they know... [Chris:] Wh what, well, I, I wouldn't say just looking similar, I would say additionally looking, but, but in the, in the early days... the erm, and I'll be saying something about this in the, in the lectures,bu but just briefly, that you could you could say there were phases in psychoanalysis, the early days, before both of us were born you were here, the, the aim when the method was, the aim was to release the unconscious, bring it to the surface, and that was regarded as more or less enough. Analyses in those days were short by modern standards. There's an example in my book, with one that only lasted six weeks, for example, which is astonishing by modern standards. After World War One, and especially by the nineteen thirties, the, the purview of psychoanalysis, as it were, had, had enlarged to include the ego, as we saw, and so, so what happened then was, the structure of the ego was explored and not just the repressions. In other words, it was the agencies that carried out the repressions that were analyzed, as well as the repressions themselves. This is a much more like a, a kind of total dissection of the personality. It means that psychoanalysis takes a lot longer, because you are looking at defences and ego as well as at, at the. You get a much more complete picture. Analogy I used in my book, was actually suggested to me by, although this is a ana a kind of metaphor that, that her father was very fond of. Erm, was with archaeology. But in the nineteenth century, archaeology was a kind of treasure-troving erm, explorers, a kind of raid on, on the very past, to discover the treasure. That's what psychoanalysis was like in its first days. We raided the unconscious, as it were, to, to liberate the repressed and, and, and understand what was in that. Modern archaeology is much more scientific and it's, it tends to excavate entire layers, layer, by layer and every little thing is relevant, you know, they, the little pot shard, erm, even bits of excrement, apparently are very interesting to archaeologists, because they're sure people were eating, and things like this, er, you know, remnants of fire was charcoal, everything. All of this is, is just good as well as bits of gold and er and, and you know metal objects, that have always traditionally been interesting to archaeologists. And that's rather like modern analysis, everything is interesting. It's not just what is repressed, it's the structures of the ego that bring about these repressions, the identifications and so on. So it's a more complete er picture, of, of, of the personality, and of course it lends itself to this kind of historical portraiture. Because as says, er, the unconscious is, as a sense, is always hidden, so how do you possibly find out about the unconscious of historical figures that are dead and gone? Well, the answer is with very very great difficulty. But if you were looking at their egos as well, er their whole personality had its defence disrupted, then of course, you may be able to see a bit more, because you are now looking at areas which are co both conscious and manifest themselves in all kinds of different ways. Does that answer your, your point? [speaker002:] Yeah, I suppose I was thinking, I, I always get mixed up when you say psychoanalysis [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] I just want to you know modern days was just confusing me and er, all this sort of thing. Whereas I think it easy, you know sometimes I get confused about what's what [Chris:] Right. So, when, when I talk about psychoanalysis in this course, I mean mainly Freudian classical, because it's Freud's writings we're looking at. Admittedly, another aspect of the whole thing, as you rightly say, is that there's been a burgeoning and a lot of different schools, and of course different schools give emphasis to different, different kinds of things. And that's a further complicating factor, of course. Well, it's just coming up to eleven o'clock, who haven't we heard from, er, right, you've been very very quiet there. There. Have you got anything, any comments you want to say about this? [speaker002:] I mean, I didn't read the book. [Chris:] No. No. [speaker002:] Er, I must admit I... point Freud makes, slightly arrogant erm, I mean it, he's, he's, he's a [Chris:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker002:] His father's you know there's peace conference in nineteen eighteen [Chris:] Yeah. Did you think that, that, that, that their approach was arrogant and their, the, the affect was trivializing? [speaker002:] Well, not really, no. that weren't the impression that I got. [Chris:] The actual book, arise that book anyhow, mm. But it's certainly er, certainly a valid question. Yeah. [speaker002:] Woodrow Wilson Well, that's what Freud also subject on. But I know that such a talented writer. You know, I mean, I was convinced that there was no such thing as religion after I'd read the book [LAUGHTER] I mean, anything I read about, I immediately say, oh yes, of course that's true, you know. So. [Chris:] Well, next week, will be telling us about another one of these very controversial books, won't you? [speaker002:] Yes. [Chris:] In which we shall be looking at, er another famous figure, but, but, er an even more remote and one, some people might say,mytho mythological one, namely Moses. So having done Woodrow Wilson this week, we will do Moses, next week. We'll look forward to that. Is anybody Jewish, by the way? Right. Well, one year, I must admit, somebody in the class stormed out. The person started to read their paper on Moses, and I thought she was doing a good job of it, this guy suddenly got up and said, I'm Jewish, I'm not listening to any more of this, and stormed out. [speaker002:] Oh, I don't see that. Erm, what is the most, [Chris:] Right. Er, that is in, that is in er, Hampstead,. If you wanna get there... [speaker002:] I'm just [Chris:] the easiest way to do it, is to take the underground to Finchley Road Station... [speaker002:] Finchley Road Station. Mhm. [Chris:] And when you come out of Finchley Road Station, it's in a place called. I may be able to give you a thing about it actually, if I've still got one.... You can visit it, it's open... it's best to phone up and find out when they're open, because they're not open every day. [speaker002:] And they interesting? [Chris:] Well, there's... I mean it's interesting, erm, it's Freud's you know, collection of, of classical and antique. They, they give the impression that the house is the way it was when he lived there, but it's not quite true, actually, it was earlier on. Erm, it's, it's certainly a lot smarter than could remember when lived there. Erm, and now let's see... I used to have a file on this, but I might have... passed it or given all the stuff away... [speaker002:] Is it? [Chris:] Yeah, it probably is. Yes, that's, that's the kind of place you would find it. Erm, that is the kind of place you would... [speaker002:] Alright. Well, if you suddenly find it, you know... [Chris:] Er, don't despair, I haven't finished yet, erm... Ah, here we are, Freud I knew I had it, I knew I had it. They used to write to me quite regularly... Here you are. [speaker002:] Great. Thank you. [Chris:] As I said, check the opening hours, they've probably changed. [speaker002:] Okay. [Chris:] That tells you where it is, and the phone numbers. [speaker002:] Great. Thank you. Erm, [Chris:] Yes [speaker002:] to make an appointment. [Chris:] Yeah, the reason is, we have to discuss your erm, your reports and so on. Erm, what were we going to do today? [speaker002:] A lot of [Chris:] Right. Okay. Well, let's make an appointment, then. When would be convenient? [speaker002:] Well, I finish at, about, about twelve on Tuesdays, and work on Wednesday. [Chris:] Right. Won't be here next Wednesday? What about next Tuesday? Could you, what's on at twelve, twelve thirty. I'm showing a film at one. I mean, you are in in the afternoon on Tuesday? [speaker002:] I might, yes. [Chris:] Yeah, the trouble with that, I'll have to make you wait till four thirty, is that too long? [speaker002:] Erm, well, what about Thursday? [Chris:] Thursday, yes, no no, next Thursday's easier. What about next Thursday, what time could you? [speaker002:] Erm, between [Chris:] You've got a lecture? [speaker002:] Erm, I mean one and two. [Chris:] Between one and two? [speaker002:] Or after three. [Chris:] Or after three. Erm, yeah, let's make it at three. Can we make it at three next Thursday, after the lecture? [speaker002:] Right. [Chris:] So after next Thursday's lecture, twenty eighth, at three o'clock. [speaker002:] Right, [Chris:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Chris:] See you then,. Thanks very much. [speaker002:] Bye. [Chris:] Okay,, come on, come and sit down. [speaker002:] Well, I was erm, I just heard, you wanted me to come in, erm, I'm doing a, a paper on Monday. [Chris:] Oh, that's right. That's right. [speaker002:] But erm [Chris:] And you were going to... [speaker002:] you wanted me er, to give you a run through of it. [Chris:] Well, well, I su I suggested that this will be helpful, which it will be, will it? [speaker002:] Erm, well the thing is that I still erm, in the process of doing research and reading and gathering a [Chris:] Alright. I mean, we did reports, we did those, yeah [speaker002:] lot of ideas about getting an idea about did you, am I in the class just now? I went to erm, the registration [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it says I haven't been put on the list. Am I on it? [Chris:] Er, well, they hadn't notified me, but they probably, you told them anyway, did you? [speaker002:] Yeah, [Chris:] Because that's the important thing. Erm, yeah the important thing is that they know. I mean, I know, I've, I've written it down myself. [speaker002:] Erm [Chris:] Okay, you say you're still... [speaker002:] Right, yeah [Chris:] You're still doing this [speaker002:] I didn't think the question that erm, the question culture was the same as our culture. [Chris:] Right. [speaker002:] And erm, read about the book so far, and I'm going through erm, [Chris:] Okay. [speaker002:] Why? [Chris:] Well, there's no need now, I mean, I only suggested this erm, to help you, er, and I wouldn't want to make you write it out er, just for the sake of writing it out. It don't think it's a good use of your time. And I mean, if you think that just presenting it in the, in the class is er enough... [tape stopped and restarted] [speaker002:] send it down to use yourself, but to be able to carry that through and to, to go on to, to be sincere, and I respect that it's important to be sincere. If you, you know, talk about people moral values and to be able to do that, and just majority of anything you need to you need to have a that allows you to do that without [Chris:] Yes, yeah. Yes, it's very important to remember that both in, from this direct point of view and from Freud's findings, you shouldn't just assume that it was a watertight compartment between two areas, as it were. One conscious and un it's not like that. I mean, in fact, what, what er, what Freud found, he says is sometimes, you get erm, this is in fact a kind of continuing from conscious and unconscious, and there's a big gradation in between, and very often erm, things are erm, unconscious, not in the sense that they're totally lost, and you are unaware of them, but for example, they're, they're isolated. They, they, they exist erm,princ a very common finding in psychoanalysis is that things will, will, will exist as word representations, with no feeling representation, or they won't be connected to, to er [cough] they'd be completely isolated. You know, a very good example of this, that always sticks in my mind, telling me erm, that once she was analyzing a woman and er, a lot of the analysis was concerned with erm, conflicts, erm, relating to masturbation in childhood, and constantly felt that this was what the analysis seemed to have done, because the woman consistently denied this had ever happened. Absolutely denied, she'd ever done that. Then one day, said she described something she often used to do in childhood, habitually did. And she had a special name for it, I can't remember what is was now, but it was an innocuous word, like erm [cough] erm, kneading, or something like that, something you do with your fingers. Erm, and said, okay, that's what you called it in childhood, you called, say kneading, if that's what it was. She said, now, supposing you had to look up what you just described, you know, in a dictionary, and find a word that everybody would associate with it. What word would you find? And she said, the woman thought for a minute, and suddenly she gasped when said that's masturbation, isn't it? And said, yes. And she said, but I've always known I did that. And, you see, she'd known it, but it had been entered under another word, in her mind. As she didn't connect it with what everyone else calls masturbation. You know, er, that's a horrible thing that other people do. She had her own... term for it, and as long as it was purely associated with that term, she never connected it. And that's quite a typical finding. That things remain unconscious, not because you never knew about them, but because they're never brought into the relevant connections with other things that make you conscious of the thing in the sense of seeing what's in it for Mrs... you know, reports. So we're not saying it's a question of conscious unconscious, or rigid demarcation where we are actually talking about subtle gradations of consciousness, from complete self conscious awareness at one end, to total loss of all memory of the thing at, at, at the other. And everything in the [cough] between, and most stuff is in between, as a matter of fact. So I think you're right, it's a very very important, erm, and, and often in life, you can find people switch from one to the other with astonishing speeds. I mean, some people have kind of butterfly minds, with butterfly behaviour, and they switch from being one type of person or another type of person almost minute by minute. You just can't keep up with them. I mean what does this, you know, what is, is this? I mean, do to have this astonishing capacity of switch all the time. You just don't know, know where you are with them. Well, that was interesting, it was interesting discussion, er, thanks to an excellent paper, we're, we're, we're delighted, and that was first rate. Who did I say was next week? Right. We look forward to hearing from you next week,. Sorry I've got to throw you out on time, but I've got another appointment at four. [cough] Er,, did you see him about that? [speaker002:] Erm, yes I did the only problem [Chris:] Yeah. You don't have a [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [talk simultaneous] [Chris:] Ah, well, keep our fingers crossed. Tell me if there's anything I can do. [speaker002:] Okay. [Chris:] Yeah. Well, what did you think of the film,? Had you seen it before? [speaker002:] I hated it. It is a bit, is er is er is a bit odd. I suppose you liked it? [Chris:] Well, I must say I liked it, er, I mean, I showed it because er suggested it. I thought it filled in the, the kind of, some of the biographical kind of things we don't have time to do in the course. [speaker002:] was interesting. I mean, the general, I mean [Chris:] Yeah yeah. You think I should show it in the future years? Perhaps not. [speaker002:] Er, it depends [Chris:] Yeah, yeah. Fine. The... sexual aperitif. Yeah, it did. [speaker002:] Er. [Chris:] Yeah, yeah, have a look, hold on. Thanks for the book. [speaker002:] Alright. [Chris:] Oh, you sure you can spare it? [speaker002:] Yeah, I've no more lectures until your one on Thursday. [Chris:] Well, can I give it to you back on Thursday? [speaker002:] Yeah, that's wonderful. [Chris:] You sure you won't need it till then? I'll keep it under lock and key, many thanks. Ah, right, so how are you? [speaker002:] Oh, I'm fine, thank you. [Chris:] Put that save. Make sure I don't lose that. Okay. Right, so, and you're going to the, what's the seminar at five is it or [speaker002:] That's right, oh, yes, I received this letter. [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I don't know if you've heard about it? [Chris:] No. [speaker002:] Erm, well, I was [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and I mean, I considered myself to have been like, er, frequent, or erm, whatever. So er, on the last seminar, they all talked about sending out letters to all the students who weren't there the attendance was very low, and I received one, but [Chris:] Right. [speaker002:] enough. And er, I was also asked why I had offered to and I'd already spoken to the students' secretary about it. [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So I wrote back to and [Chris:] Mm. Yeah. [speaker002:] I'm not giving the paper for health reasons. I have been [Chris:] Right. I will, I will mention, I didn't know they were sending out such a letter, otherwise I would have er, told them in advance. But I will [speaker002:] I'm on the street for the moment [Chris:] I, absolutely, I'll, I'll speak to everyone, don't worry. [speaker002:] I mean, don't worry [Chris:] So are you, are you be going to seminar? [speaker002:] Yes. [Chris:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, [whispering] I have to []. Thing is [whispering] I, I just I can't work []. [Chris:] No. [speaker002:] I [whispering] go sick [Chris:] No. [speaker002:] somehow I haven't been able to work [Chris:] No, okay. [speaker002:] because I'm really worried [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] when I think about it I think I just can't work, it's like, I've lost interest whenever I find some I feel I'm able to keep up [Chris:] Mm [speaker002:] which is something I [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean want to I have considered going back to er, training and cancel this [Chris:] Right, I see, what dropping this altogether? [speaker002:] Er, no, I'd like to come in. [Chris:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean I don't particularly like [Chris:] Mm. Yeah. [speaker002:] and perhaps after that come back to [Chris:] Right. [speaker002:] I really [] [Chris:] Well, the, I mean the, the thing about the end fill is...

[Michael:] I think we'll, got another minute or so. I think I'll start.... Well welcome everybody and welcome to some Pearson results that er ar maybe rather better than some of you were expecting. Er taking part in our presentation this morning is Frank, the Chief Executive of, of Pearson, er James, our Finance Director and David who is er our resident as Pearson Executive Director resident in the U S and he is also Chairman of our Oil Services Division. Profits are lower and earnings are lower than last year, but cash generation which we've been working particularly hard on er for the past couple of years er and which we will be talking about further in a minute has come through extremely well er and we produced higher levels of cash this year than at any time in the company's history. With this in mind we are er recommending a small increase in the net dividend.... A number of things have changed since er, we reported rather gloomily six months ago. One of the major changes is that the trading environment in which U K companies operate has been improved by lower interest rates and the lower value of the pound which is also helpful to the translation of our overseas profits and to our exports. Particularly as we are a company whose sales as you know is split roughly a third a third a third er that is a third in the U K, a third in North America and a third in the rest of the world.... The media and entertainment business brought in excellent results collectively up twenty five percent and as you can see the book businesses performed particularly strongly even better now. Erm investment banking and fine china in the market circumstances er performed well, erm although they're down on the previous year. Er the disappointment obviously is oil services, so to begin I'm gonna ask David, who as I said is Chairman of our Oil Services Division Camco to address this straight away.... [David:] Just better ah, that's fine. Thank you Michael for that introduction which er could be likened to a poisoned chalice I suppose. Erm you probably all know Murphy's law that what can go wrong will go wrong, when I looked at the Oil Service Industry in last year, I rather think that Murphy was a bit of an optimist myself. Er, obviously on a more serious note, er it was very disappointing that we had such a severe er downturn in profitability last year after several years of steadily rising profits, and so what I want to do this morning was tell you a little bit about what happened in the last part of the year, since we met at the time of the interim results presentation last September, tell you the actions that have been taken and give you a little bit of insight as to where we stand at the present time. You may remember that we were talking last autumn about gas prices hopefully continuing to rise natural gas by to rise during the rest of the year and in fact that did take place and it did have some impact on the domestic rig count in the United States which went up quite strongly in the last part of the year. Although I should warn you that about two hundred of those nine hundred rigs were probably actor active as a result of special tax breaks, which were ended at the end of nineteen ninety two and won't be repeated. The biggest problem and disappointment was that the international rig count continued downwards and that was where we had been hoping for increased sales and increased market share looking into this year and into the last part of last year. As a result, overall our sales were down, roughly in line with our competitors in the oil service industry, but there was continuing pressure on margins and profitability and there had obviously been some build-up on the international side in anticipation of higher sales. With an uncertain outlook for nineteen ninety three from our point of view it's absolutely crucial to get costs in line we had obviously done cost-cutting during the previous two years, but we really needed to be sure that if revenues were not going to increase, we shouldn't wait for a recovery to bail us out. This led to restructuring costs, including redundancies and closures and other one-time charges totalling approximately twenty million dollars, of which approximately eighteen million dollars came in the second half and a very large portion of that in the last quarter of the year. The areas where we put in most effort were Reed Tool the drill bit company where there were redundancies earlier in the year and in particular the U S operations of Redder and also the U S operations of Camco Products where in fact in the U S part of it, there are now thirty eight percent less people employed than there were a year ago. In doing all of this, we were in good or maybe bad company depending upon how you view it, for example Halla Burton had special charges last year of a hundred and eighty seven million dollars which compared with a hundred and eighty two million dollars of special charges the previous year and Baker Hughes similarly had charges of eighty million dollars and sixty million dollars. At the same time, we reduced capital expenditure from forty two million dollars to twenty four million dollars, but we did keep up our R and D efforts and had several rather successful new product introductions during the year. As a result with good control of working capital, our cash flow overall was virtually the same as in the previous year in spite of the significant profit collapse and although there may be some further redundancies this year, I don't expect them to be in any way on the same scale as during nineteen ninety two and the important thing is that we now have costs in line with the lower level of revenue as we look into nineteen ninety three. To take a quick look now at the current conditions and in fact you'll see the extension of gas prices, rig counts etcetera into this year on the charts that you'll be given with a pack after this meeting. Gas prices in the first quarter of this year have continued firm. The U S rig count is down, both because of those rigs I told you about for tax reasons and also because there's always a seasonal downturn in the first quarter of this year. There is some indication that the seasonal downturn may be flattening out a little bit earlier this year than usual. The Canadian market has been very strong, which is important for Reed Tool which has a big market share up there for its drill bits. The international market however does still remain weak. There may have been some weather impact in the last two months, but basically, it looks like the major U S oil companies that were going overseas are still spending money on buying leases and building up infrastructure. The national companies such as Mexico and Venezuela are still re-organizing themselves and obviously a lot of time, effort and nervous energy is being spent by people on figuring out what to do in the C I S, where there are obviously great opportunities, but great risks as well. So the trading environment still remains er somewhat weak, but the better news is that the medicine we've applied does seem to be working. The newly-appointed C E O, Gary who took over at the end of the year when Gill retired has been very involved in these restructuring efforts and has been working very effectively and is on top of the situation, and although three swallows may not make a summer, I can at least tell you that Camco has traded profitably in each of the first three months of nineteen ninety three and now I'd like to hand you over to Frank, who will talk about the rest of our business.... [Frank:] [cough] Thank you David. Good morning everyone. Last year in the er Annual Report er Michael and wrote we will continue to concentrate our efforts on cash generation... and so obviously this is the er this has been the most important of our management actions. We've continued to focus on cash. We've concentrated on market share, we've been exercising cost reductions and we've been continuing with investment.... Now how did we focus on cash? Well we er have programmes designed to encourage chief executives to er concentrate on cash generation. We've er added extra staff in, in er credit control departments where it's been necessary and by a process of education, at every Pearson seminar we rang home the message of the importance of cash and James provides examples of different methods of operating and the effect it has on cash... and what happened to market share? Well we've er we've gained in, in many areas and held in all.... Cost reductions... there are many, many actions we've taken and so lots of the cost reduction is the accumulation of er of rather smaller ones, but the main ones are redundancy, sadly, more redundancy and we'll give you the numbers in a second er we've asked our suppliers for greater discounts or better discounts and been successful here. We control the pay round, the pay round increase in Pearson was less than three percent a a and we've continued with capital expenditure designed to reduce costs. Good example would be Penguin U S A er where we've er er put up a new building er in which to house a press to be by Donnelly which will allow much shorter print runs of our trade books and this should reduce the number of and as you know, that's one of the biggest problems facing the trade book industry. Another example would be the Talbot System and the Financial Times, which will provide full page make-up and is already yielding benefits and will continue to do so in ninety three and ninety four.... But we've continued with investment to develop our business as well er and so we acquired Ventura which publishes the er Spot er books. We really in Paris and we invested th five point seven million in the toy ride at Alton Towers, er one point six million in the roller-coaster, we've authorized three point six five million to be used at er Warwick Castle to develop the King Maker Exhibition and we spent ten million on a new ride underground at Madame Tussauds in Marylebone Road, the Spirit of London. We've launched the series of six Beatrix Potter videos, the first two have been very successful, the first one sold three hundred and fifty thousand copies and is er I think it's number three in the best seller list and we'll give you one of these to take home and er and, and watch to your leisure.... er [LAUGHTER] we er launched the Medical Daily in Spain with our Spanish associates and we've introduced interactive videos that our er Natural Sciences Division have Addison Wesley and elsewhere. We move to redundancies, well there you will see that er er newspapers that is to say Westminster Press and Camco have borne the brunt er and... I will say no more other than that the reduction in payroll year-on-year will be thirty million pounds. Moving to fine china, there was a very considerable overseas sales decline, particularly in Canada where there were lots of major retailers going bankrupt, but despite that, sales were over two hundred million for the fourth year in succession and we had a record December. This was achieved by altering the mix and concentrating more on the lower-priced er china such as erm chain stores and hotel and airline ware. In the U S we continued with our expansion by opening sixteen shops and our bridal wear in America was a market leader.... Newspapers. Well there you'll see a summary. The F T Newspaper which includes magazines, electronic publishing and was up a bit. The F T Associates which is er includes the Economist in Spain was up a lot and Westminster Press was er was down, but of course Westminster Press took a major redundancy charge, they were also bringing on a new plant at Brighton and therefore running two plants simultaneously which is very costly er and they launched on Sunday. Again they charged against revenue... but er I can assure you that er Westminster Press will increase its cash generation during this year. The Financial Times itself, the er trading profit was up ten percent, despite having to cope with an advertisement volume which is now higher than during the er seventy four recession. Cost cutting went on and as I say will continue in ninety three and ninety four. Circulation just about held its own in U K, but was up six point three percent in Europe and is now one hundred and thirteen thousand five hundred and the electronic publishing was up eighty one percent.... There's Echo... There's Echo goes from strength to strength to the extent that one of its competitors, the main competitor, Tribune del Expansione was obliged to merge with Lacoude Francais I mentioned earlier that Ensure was re-launched and er it achieved a circulation of a hundred and five thousand. In circulation of Les Ecca was up four percent year on year. The Economist circulation is now five hundred and twenty five thousand each week, and although their er year is out of sync with ours, I expect the profits for the year to be at or near record levels once again. Recollettas our Spanish investment paid off handsomely, profits more than doubled and Marker is er, the seven day a week sports paper, is now the er second biggest paper in Spain and has a higher readership than the first paper. Expansione the financial daily [cough] excuse me also increased its circulation once again and its profits. [cough] Moving to books and of course the books division er was the star this year I am pleased to stay. Starting off with Penguin. With record sales, record profit and record cash generation, they managed to reduce their inventory by thirty percent during the year and had the most ever number of best sellers on the New York Times best seller list, and that's continued into ninety three in January, we had eight on the New York Times best seller list. At Longman, here again, best ever sales profits and cash generation. In Spain, we took Hal Hambra from a loss to a profit and the award of the Albanta Prize by the Spanish government and this is an award given to the best new text book in, in the Spanish educational system each year. In Japan our small but beautiful medical information business increased its profits by forty five percent and Ladybird er we had a swing from a loss to a profit margin of ten percent. Addison Wesley er had a, yet again another year of progress. I am pleased to say we've taken the trading margin there from five percent to fourteen point two percent in the last four years. This was achieved with a higher erm educational higher education perform the industry in the year say and that was a major contributor and our Natural Sciences Division had its best ever sales.... Entertainment and Media er the Tussaud Group had the highest ever attendances at Alton Towers, at Warwick Castle er and at Rock Circus. Scenerama in Holland performed above budget. Alton Towers in fact was a record turnover and profit and I think it justifies our marketing of goods I mentioned the two investments on new rides earlier and that was designed to move the audience from the white socks brigade to family unions, it seems to be working very well [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank:] [cough]... Peskibe continues to thrive, operational profits there are now well over a million a week... and I think it's worth remembering that one subscriber may have three subscriptions say to two movie channels and one sports channels... and if you count these individually, it means that we now have four point nine million subscriptions achieved during the second worst recession, recession this century. The churn rate is now down to eleven percent, the result of positive action that we've taken there... and we expect to add a million homes during this year... and the cable audience I am pleased to say is growing still very very slowly er but that should help as well.... [cough]... Now lastly er just to er just to indicate that virtue has its own reward, there's the record operating cash generation for you to see... and on that note I'll pass you over to James. James. [James:] Thank you Frank. I don't know whether I'm virtue or the reward, but never mind! Er, back to the profit and analysis er remind you so far there's three which... er you're all very I'm sure already familiar with but we have to explain to some of our less sophisticated audiences. Six sectors down ten percent, that of course included investment banking which we haven't touched on, but er the Lazard Houses profits were down a little less than ten percent which is rather good going, given their... erm heavy specialist skills in M and A which were a little bit in short supply last year. Er looking at the rest of the P and L, you will see that we have split out a profit on sale of fixed assets which is our Lakeside erm Capelat and the Capco shares er which is why the corporate expenses for this other income has turned a way round, it's gonna be negative nowadays, so we thought it'd look a little silly saying other income less expenses. Erm operating profit therefore down eleven percent, that's er the ongoing businesses plus of course the impact of the erm er the sale of er Elsevere are holding in the first erm up to ten weeks of ninety one. Therefore although the interest charge is well down, profit before tax was down sixteen percent, it's down sixteen percent er because of course the old extraordinaries, the extraordinaries we had below the line in ninety one the eight million you see net profit on disposals are back above the line in under F R S Three, that's the Elsevere profit less the Smith Var losses very broadly speaking. Continuing down the and P and L account the erm... tax charge, you've seen a note in the erm preliminary results present erm handout is not in fact up as a percentage if you look at the operating er if you look at it in operating terms, there was a tax credit in in extraordinaries last year this therefore had reduced the nineteen ninety one tax charge comparatively, strip it out and tax chargee share was around twenty nine percent. Primary earnings under F R S Three including everything down twenty one percent, but taking out the non-operating items, that's the erm fixed assets, er profit sales on the one hand and the old extraordinaries on the other, and you have I think a more meaningful guide to our performance a reduction in any nine percent.... There were some significant erm factors that im impinged on profits i in nineteen ninety two and we've listed here the most important ones. To an extent tha they er offset each other as you can see, since the erm underlying operating performance, although less than the total in operating profit er was, was, was quite varied. The... I, I'll run through them rather quickly. On the negatives there was the er resumption of a S S A P twenty four charge for U K pensions, a little less than we expected, we had a strong revaluation in mid-year, the incremental redundancy costs that Frank has already touched upon and er the er dis er the discontinued profits not in ninety two. Offsetting that with the Smith Mark, losses and the one-time provision for the Penguin U S Leases, that was all... taken care of in nineteen ninety one and the benefit from our fully benefit from our ninety one acquisitions and little bit in ninety two. If I turn from the P and L Account to the operating cash flow, er you've got the F R S One cash flow in your er in your pack in the preliminary announcement obviously, but we er don't find it terribly helpful, it's not the way we manage the business so I thought you erm would forgive us if we present it in the way we think it's a little easier to follow. Now this slide really takes the behind, takes us behind the first figure on the on the consolidated F R S One cash flow table and it really traces hard despite the reduction in profits, the very strong performance in working capital that Frank eluded to earlier means that er we actually end up with a net cash flow for operating activities more than thirty five million pounds higher. I'd just like to elude to the er positive string on exchange, we take our profits in during the year at an average rate, but the cash benefit obviously er year on year is, is better than that er to the extent that the erm dollar has strengthened throughout the year or by the year end against the pound and we get the full benefit of that in our cash flow. Reduction in capital expenditure er broadly offset the reduced erm income from partnerships and associates which is basically our Lazard income, that's so the very good er contribution we got in ninety one reflected the nineteen ninety er profits they were earning. Operating cash flow as we look on it, well up. The reduction in interest broadly matched the increase in tax paid between the two years, so the net movement of funds from operations are a critical parameter for whether we're really generating cash for new initiatives, significantly better at forty five point six million and this... this excludes the proceeds of fixed asset disposals, so all in all we had pretty nearly sixty million cash free and clear. Not a lot was spent on acquisitions er and not really any material disposals other than the ones already referred to. The change in net debt, er worth referring worth mentioning minus three point three million that much worse would have been significantly lower thirty five million or so lower if we'd had the same year end exchange rate as we did in nineteen ninety one. I turn from this rather convoluted erm aspect of cash flow back to the balance sheet. Balance sheets really haven't changed either er formally the way we publish them to you or the way we look at it, them ourselves. Er really no great change here, small improvement in capital and small increase in capital employed and of course with little change in net debt and the shareholders' funds have gone up.... If you look at the net debt in greater detail... it is still the difference between erm substantial gross debt and substantial amounts of cash, each of which have gone up somewhat during the year. The significant change I think is in the balance of debt between fixed and variable rate, where we took a conscious decision and been working it through to take more advantage of the prospective and er decline, it was prospective earlier in the year er in selling interest rates and the continued low er short-term rates in the United States.... The upshot of the erm... the year of course has been rather a healthy lot of financial ratios. We've er we're showing the dividend cover in a variety of ways because it's... I think not clear that any one measure is, is only er the way of calculating it. Under F R S Three which is the erm... everything above the line earnings a a covers down, earnings down from two one to one six, not much change on the adjusted earnings which we think is perhaps more meaningful and if you look at the cash generation the test of whether you can pay it a very significant improvement from one two to one point seven times. Interest cover er has improved accordingly, you saw the interest charge was, was usefully down and erm the ratio is low and has remained low. So on that healthy note I'd like to hand you back to Michael to summarize.... [Michael:] I'm optimistic about nineteen ninety three. I can't of course foretell er what's gonna happen in Eastern Europe, but looking externally er at the lower interest rates and the er more competitive value of the pound and internally at the improved cash flow and the actions that we've been taking over for the past couple of years and I can say that there's now generally a more optimistic feeling in the air amongst our group companies.... As you've heard we've been cutting costs pretty significantly over the last couple of years erm [cough] what we're talking about is three thousand people having been er made redundant over the two and a half years and as we were saying earlier substantial redundancy costs have had to be borne. Nineteen ninety three is gonna be the first year in which the full benefits of this cost cutting are gonna come through and whilst it's always a continuing process and there will be some further redundancies, I am glad to say that we believe that the bulk of the redundancies are now behind us. We've re-aligned our cost space which makes us more profitable at the existing levels of demand and potentially very profitable indeed er... er when you consider that we have the capacity to respond to any upturn in demand without increasing our costs. The underlying point I'd just like to give an example er of how the F T would benefit er if a recovery takes place. For every extra hundred fee of advertising revenue we add seventy five P to operate in profit. Any upturn in demand also produces a substantial improvement in profit in several other of our businesses, for instance Westminster Press, Les Echo Lazards Tussaud and I'd like to remind people that we're a very second half oriented company and that in the first half of nineteen ninety two we had some major one-off contributions to profits which very much helped the figures, but nonetheless, we're pleased at the way the trading profits of the operating companies are moving. It's early days er to make predictions, but we're off to a positive start for the year. Thank you very much and we'd like now to answer any questions that you may have.... Yes? We have microphones. [Robert:] Do you want to say who we are? [Michael:] Sorry? [Robert:] Do you want to say who we are? [Michael:] No, I, I think we know. [Robert:] Okay. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Erm the Financial Times you showed er I think including the F T Group and Les Echo er in, in the profit analysis, but you did say that their operating profit was up ten percent th the F T Group which I take it to mean they made fourteen point three, leaving I think four point two to Les Echo You did also say that Les Echo had gone from strength to strength but f from my figures I think it's a third successive decline in their profit. Would you like to, to explain what from strength to strength means or whether I've got my figures wrong erm a and, and perhaps give an idea of what from strength to strength will mean in coming years? [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Michael:] Er I think in this context strength to strength is talking about market share, erm Frank er was saying how we've made considerable gains in relation to the opposition and er such an extent that in fact er it had to join up with the er er er with the other financial newspaper, but Frank would you, would you like to add? [Frank:] Yes. The circulation is erm is has grown every year we've had it and that's very important because erm a lot of the subscrip a lot of the circulation of Les Echo is in fact a subscription in advance such it's cash generating qualities are high even when the profits are down. Now the profits are down erm mainly because of the er the recession in France which started later than U K, and secondly because we've er we've er re-launched Bonjour and so we have the re-lau re-launch cost there. [Michael:] [LAUGHTER] Er James would you like to [James:] Well I think Robert's, er I mean Robert's always a good guide on these matters I mean the F [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] The F T [Michael:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] The F T itself as it were profits were up erm about up to about fourteen million and erm Les Echo was just over four.... [Michael:] Yes? [speaker004:] I'm er [Michael:] Sorry [speaker004:] I'm curious about the oil services. The profit was down thirty million or so and if we look at the geographic breakdown of profit, er the U S A was up... er and yet if er Addison Wesley was about the same Penguin was up ten... so where did this thirty million drop in profits at oil services arise, was it in the U K and Singapore... as opposed to the U S or, or was there something different about Penguin U S compared with Penguin U K? [Michael:] David, would you like to? [David:] Well I think if I could ask James to help on the geographic spread of the profits overall and then I could perhaps supplement that afterwards on the oil services. [James:] The erm, yes Camco's profits were down in the U S, but Penguin North America was substantially up, erm and Addison Wesley of course was up in erm dollar terms. Th this er... the, the small increase in sterling of er Addison Wesley in fact under er I mean it didn't do them justice in dollar terms they were up fourteen percent. Erm... th that's the main er so overall you had a net gain in fact to erm... U S profits er Camco erm I think less than that erm Camco's profits to were spread fairly broadly geographically er as you do know it does operate as you do rightly point out erm... pretty much everywhere else and it's erm featured both in South America and Asia's decline... and Africa, but not in Europe. It was up in Europe but down in the U K.... [Michael:] Yes?... [speaker004:] Erm can I just clarify that the thirty million of erm savings, was that actual redundancy costs which took place in ninety two or was that redundancy costs plus the sav commensurate savings which will then benefit ninety three er or was it just the savings? [Michael:] Frank, would you? [Frank:] Erm, I think what I said was that as a result of these actions, the payroll would be thirty million less in ninety three than ninety two. That's what I was meaning. [speaker004:] So that doesn't include any redundancy costs? [Frank:] Well the redundancy costs erm er taken in ninety two... so [speaker004:] But does the thirty million include the redundancy costs or is that just the savings? [Michael:] The redundancy costs are part of the savings. [Frank:] No the [LAUGHTER] no listen the redundancy cost is taken in, in ninety two an and therefore the payroll is better is less by thirty million in ninety three, so that's... that's the benefit there.... Costs are in ninety two and therefore there was a cha there was a charge there was a net charge in ninety two and in ninety three the payroll will be thirty million less than it would have been. [Michael:] In ninety two there were redundancy costs to some extent offset by some er savings in payroll, there'll by no redundancy cost relating to those previous redundancies in ninety three, but there will be the full saving on the payroll. So anyway Yes we can. [speaker004:] thirteen million... Is that thirteen or thirty million? [James:] Thirteen, one figures one three. That's the gross cost actual cost of redundancies. Obviously there's some depending when they, depending on what time of the year you will get some of the savings. [David:] Michael can I add something? [Michael:] Yes. [David:] I'd just like to add that included in the numbers that I gave you for Camco were not just redundancy costs, but costs of closures of sales offices, distribution networks and some other special one-time charges, so it's not pure redundancy when you look at the numbers that I gave you earlier on. [Michael:] Sorry, we had a... question. Over here Go on. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] The erm on the cash flow numbers exchange and other erm can, can you split out what the er what the figures actually were, how much they and [Michael:] James. [James:] Erm... yes I mean they're... I'm groping for my briefing papers... a complicated one this. Er it's mainly er the change in, in foreign currency debt... erm... and erm... the year end debt er er erm the point is we had rather more dollars at the beginning of the year than at the end of the year erm and erm which, which complicates matters, but if you look at our year end debt in dollar terms th erm there was a thirty nine million pound erm adverse movement year on year as a result of that. The rest of provision the rest of the, of the movement are things like provisions which increased during the year much smaller number. That, that brings you up to the [Michael:] Yes? [speaker004:] Erm over the last three years. Is that right? [Michael:] Sorry, the? [speaker004:] profits. [Michael:] Oh yes. They will not occur in ninety three. I thought you said Camco from Capco sorry, yeah. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] Other way round. Yes. [LAUGHTER] Big difference. Big difference. [Michael:] Involved, in, in that conglomeration. [James:] Well th the profits of the sale fixed assets that the shares and would be if there were any the sale profits on the sale of any other pieces of land at Lakeside or indeed elsewhere in the group and we sold a site not in ninety two, it was ninety one at Frinton I think you'll remember that so small profits. Correct. Therefore what is now called corporate this other income is the erm basically head office cost, there's things like profits on from our captive insurance er dividends which we didn't have it in fact last year we did the year before from Blackpool land, small profits from the sale of some shares at Fair and other odds and ends which I... erm really don't make up a great deal. Yeah any other current assets sales. That's basically it, current asset and investment sales. [Michael:] Okay Ken. [Ken:] twelve months ago you sorry twelve months ago you possibility that the falling out of the capital and accounts profits might be replaced by er taking some credit for the... obvious major turnaround of B-Sky-B and I wonder whether you could... elucidate on the prospects of that? [Michael:] Mm. Well I would, I would, I would just comment that... there... er... in profits have er have it doesn't mean to say that we won't have some profits from our estate at Thurrock because there are other areas of land involved, but they won't be so substantial and for B-Sky-B I would turn to Frank.... [Frank:] [LAUGHTER] Er well erm Pearson is always er er rather cautious of these things, but I think have, are, are very cautious and might take the view if things progress as they are er in the second half of this year that we will er take some credit. [Michael:] James. [James:] We've got erm... yes we've got quite a lot of land stock interest we might have accrued er and haven't, erm thirty million pounds in fact, but erm it hasn't been accrued because in our view it's some years off for being paid, but we... think er or so I'm informed by the Chairman of B-Sky-B er that things are going quite well [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] and erm... therefore this year er there is a case for saying we shall start to accrue some of the backlog er to the extent, but only to the extent we will expected to be paid shortly thereafterwards. We don't want to accrue er interest even if it's being expenses by B-Sky-B if it's not going to [cough] actually be paid for many years, but to the extent that it's er likely to turn into cash in the relatively near future, then I think we would erm think it's now time to start addressing that issue and the result would be that we should probably erm accrue some reasonable and not very substantial amount of back-interest er in the current financial year. [Michael:] We have two questions, Robert would you like to address? [Robert:] Yes [James:] First of all the interest er it ranks higher up the hierarchy. [Robert:] to this year's figures when reported next year? [James:] Don't think so. No. No, no it would just bring it up to date, the stuff we haven't accrued. [Robert:] of the accrued guarantee [James:] Yes, if you'll give me a moment to find them. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Michael:] And while we're waiting? Yes. Frank? [Frank:] I, I'm not sure what you mean by the costs. [Michael:] [cough] excluded the double running of er redundancy costs and the other items we just mentioned. [Frank:] Erm... I think that would, that would add about erm... say about f four, four and a half million to the profit and the second part of the question Ken? [Ken:] Well we told Westminster Press to introduce a budget on the basis that even if there was no revenue increase, er we would achieve a, a respectable trading margin erm... and so that will happen. Now... that the only thing to offset th that this year will be the... continuing development losses of on Sunday.... Current trading is erm... current trading is improving... and I would say that er that the last three weeks have been the strongest weeks this year. It's improving as the year goes on. Er I think there's er one problem of course is that regional newspapers do depend on situations vacant quite a bit and the situations vacant market isn't improving dramatically. [James:] Can I just answer the question I, I dodged? Eleven million erm, but they're some way down the track, they're not at the top of the hierarchy [Robert:] Erm the cash as and when it does start coming through from er from B-Sky-B and the fact that you've actually er promised some of that to read in lieu of the increased er erm equity stake indirect equity stake. How can you actually account for that because either you could er increase your profits by the accrued amounts and then somewhere else balance sheet and should pay for your acquisition [James:] Yes well we haven't promised that amount, we've promised an amount equivalent to what we were gonna get carefully. I E we're not er we're not the erm the interest and dividend we will be making cash amounts cash payments to read equal to the amounts we actually get from B-Sky-B as and when we get them, but we will therefore accrue them as income... and the payments we've made will be payments that will be part of the cost of the investment. [Robert:] Okay and you said you'd start accruing the er erm the interest as and when the er time you were gonna receive the cash became er reasonably clear [James:] Thank you. So that the incremental, only the incremental erm... in respect of the incremental er er er percentage. You're quite right. [Michael:] Yes. [speaker004:] At the erm at the meeting recently they, they made it clear that er the deal has not yet been finalized. Can you, can you give us any idea when it'll close? [Michael:] This week. [speaker004:] Friday... [Michael:] Sorry. [James:] David and I. [David:] Yes. [James:] Do you wanna, do you wanna start? [LAUGHTER] [David:] I'll let you start [James:] You want me to start. I, I, well let me start first of all like most companies this has been erm er concentrated wonderfully in er reconsidering the plans and this means that quite seriously that erm er the cost cannot be precisely in the accounts because there's a redesign. It's a bit of oh my God, I didn't realize we let ourselves in for that much and I, I don't think that's quite fair of us, although I think we, we had a but some operating companies were, have certainly realized that they had erm material potential liabilities down the track led to redesign. Erm the I think er two comments for David is close to this and the one that we don't expect the P and L charge starting in ninety three and going onwards to be quotes material I E it's getting quite modest, it's not sort of mega bucks. It is relating obviously not entirely, but overwhelmingly to U S employers. Secondly there would be a one-time hit for Pryers and that would buy a Pryer adjustment, er we're not gonna spread it forward. [Michael:] Did everybody hear the question? [speaker004:] Yes. [David:] Well,i i if I, the,on one of the comments I'd make is that it's the only time I've ever known the accounting profession to do businessmen a favour by forcing them to face up to what the costs of the consequences of their actions are and this has as James said led to looking quite carefully and I think it's difficult to quantify the cost at the moment for a variety of reasons. We have overhauled the plans in some of the companies, we've considered changes that should be done to... erm make them more, actually more cost effective for the employee, there's an element of shifting the cost to the employee while still providing them with coverage and I think the other thing is that erm given the... the redundancies that have gone on in Camco and other parts of the group and cost cutting generally, it's very difficult at this stage to predict you have all sorts of things like actuarial assumptions erm... cost inflation of medical costs. I mean I don't wanna make it sound like it's,i i i it's, it's an impossible thing, but it's very difficult at this stage to forecast, but James' basic assertion that it isn't a very material number is correct. [Michael:] Yes... Charles? [Charles:] Er [cough] sorry. A question on the er oil service operations. I think at one point that the cash flow figure of fourteen point three million appeared. Can you say how much was taken out of working capital at the er oil services operations last year and a supplementary point assuming that about seventy percent of oil service revenues were international, international last year, er how significant would the North Sea be within that international figure and t to what degree have the budget changes impacted there... or will impact there, because we're already starting to hear some er fairly nasty noises aren't we from? [Michael:] Perhaps David might like to deal with North Sea first and then James. [James:] With the... the financial question? [David:] Yeah I think on the North Sea, it obviously would have erm... an effect on parts of our business, some parts more than others erm... it's very early to say exactly what, what effect it obviously in fact to the extent that it encourages the further development of existing fields that clearly benefits parts, parts of our business that are to do with completion equipment and development equipment. Er the worst side obviously will be the drill bit side where Retool is not very significant in the North Sea Hycal on the other hand has a very strong market presence here... er and Reler being submersible pumps and base based in enhanced recovery I would say... the effect would be relatively neutral, though they do a lot of business with companies like B P who are said to be one of the beneficiaries. I mean I think the, I, I think it can effect this, but not that materially erm... there are many as you know different provinces round the world and what happens in the C I S is, is obviously very important for the Middle East and so erm it will have an impact. Perhaps a erm perhaps a lesser impact than on the economy of Great Britain in the long run as to, as to whether those resources are developed effectively. [James:] Working capital reduction of by Camco [Michael:] Yes. [speaker004:] the six million erm U K pension cost isn't ongoing level and just going back to that er post-retirement medical benefits it wouldn't be material I mean definition material can be er something less than five percent of profits. Are we talking about a figure that could be approaching that sort of level, or substantially lower? [James:] Er one question less than five percent it will not be but I don't want to go and indeed I, for reasons that er David outlined, I can't go, can't be precise, but er it's not something to get scared about. [Michael:] Er, do you wanna add? [speaker004:] I was only gonna say we're, we will probably have a much clearer idea by the time we get to the results. [James:] The, the U K pension charge will er er er go up to the extent that pensionable salaries go up, there's a standard surplus being amortized au fait gently rising pension, I mean there's obviously there's an X percent of pensionable salaries is what the will tell you will have to provide and er er not much more at the moment er therefore the charge will go up a little bit but not, not gradually and it's not much. [Michael:] There's two questions though. [speaker004:] Erm, I'm sorry to come back to the central overheads er again, but erm it, considering that the other income largely related to ninety one, I'm a little unclear why the central costs went down, I can't believe there's been any salary cuts at [LAUGHTER] [James:] No we're not that. Er no we had some larger other income erm... I'm turning up the detail as we... speak. There were the sale of er the shares of erm Cedar Fair, our current, which is one of our current assets and investments. We sold one percent, one percent David? [David:] Yes. [James:] Erm towards the end of the year... and the erm and Spear erm... Spear had rather a good year, so that's our capital insurance company in Bermuda erm no claims. So that had rather er I mean that made er made it's not big potatoes, but it made more than a year ago... and there were small movements on provision adjustments. That's all, so the... the income was up, costs were... costs were marginally down... costs were down. reduction of the costs appears in ink. Mr must have been very austere with his colleagues or [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]... On the oil services division are there likely to be any further technology transfers this year and er secondly could David give some idea of the impact of the proposed B T U Tax in the United States? [David:] On the technology transfer er I don't... think that there will be any income this year, if there is it will be quite modest, we're talking about three to four million dollars and it's related to follow-up payments for training. In fact given the, what's happened politically in what was Czechoslovakia and is now the Czech Lands and Slovakia, erm and the financial pressures in Slovakia it's not certain to me that the whole arrangement will go forward. There's no problem from our point of view if that happens, but we're looking you know quite closely at it and we'll wait and see what happens. So far as the B T U Tax is concerned, erm it's really... a political issue as to where the administration or the Congress in the end decide to place the tax, I mean in very simple terms the nearer you place it to the consumer, the more effective it is, but the less politically palatable it is [LAUGHTER] which because consumers vote and oil companies don't an and so er I think it will be political pressure to push it nearer to the well head which will be less good for the oil and gas producers. I suspect a classic Washington compromise in the end. [speaker004:] adverse variance fee this year? [David:] No I don't think so, but I mean I think on the whole that the pop the admin the erm Clinton Administrations Policy is to try and encourage the development of nat the use of natural gas, it's environmentally er more acceptable and so I don't see any particular erm direct threat this year. [Michael:] Yes? [Lorna:] what average rate did you pay on it and what average rate are you paying this year? [James:] Erm... average net debt was down. I haven't got er I have to give you the figure afterwards erm... no I have got it, I have got it. Erm it was about a hundred and fifty million, but I haven't got it for nineteen ninety one... erm... Lorna, sorry you had some more questions parts B, C and D Average rate. Er accrued rate... accrued rate was about erm on the, on the, on the interest charge was eight nine, but erm... er there are a lot of adjustments in there which we've looked at. I mean let's take one er because of the hyper- inflation in Venezuela you pay fifty percent on debt there. Er we have some credit. Well that's two million pounds interestingly erm there are costs er er er we had some of our U S interest rates and we er that actually was an outgoing erm... there, there are lots of other pluses and minuses and we, you can kid yourself the rate being eight point nine accrued and five and a half adjusted er if you want to think you know if you th think the treasury job was a good one, but erm the truth lies somewhere in between I suspect. [Lorna:] what do you think the average? [James:] The average interest rate? Erm... I, I'll come back to you on that one. [Michael:] Yes. [speaker004:] Can you tell us a little about the prospects of fine china in ninety three? [David:] Well I think er what I'll do because Stuart who's the C E O rather happens to be with us er I think I'll ask Stuart if he would like to make a few remarks. Stuart?... [Stuart:] [cough]... It's really too early to say. The first three months of this year we've had an increase in sales, but those have really been attributable to improved er t to stronger U S and Canadian currency rates. Erm volumes are about level with last year and the improvement in profits is related to currency changes. So I, I wouldn't to be drawn on that Royal Doulton was late into this cycle and it's a little later than the publishing companies coming out.... [David:] Yes? [speaker004:] ninety two, ninety three and ninety four. [David:] Yes. Who would like to do that? [speaker004:] Erm There wasn't much from our point of view from Addison Wesleys in ninety two. Bills up in ninety three and ninety four. The revise is every year. Th there's a revision each year, but there's no major reduction er programmes this, in the current year. In fact this is a year when we're spending for the next adoptions. [David:] Yes? [speaker004:] prospects there? [David:] Well, er... I think that... and I get it James and I go to Friday Lazard meetings, I think there is er a erm... better feeling and we would look for progress in ninety three.... [speaker004:] Is, is there [David:] Er in Lazard Brothers in particular? [speaker004:] Yes. [David:] Erm [speaker004:] With [David:] Yes I think th that, that er it did give, it did, it did give opportunities, but I mean it's not a, it's not an enormously major erm part of our overall Lazard business.... Er... James would you like to add? [James:] Yeah I mean I er er er clearly like m m most banks,th th th they found some useful opportunities in September, but I mean I don't say they're not huge players they don't have enormous capital they're not strict punters in, in, in any of the markets. [David:] Yes? Sorry, would you like [speaker004:] Has there been any major change in the distribution of debt and cash erm of nineteen ninety two er compared to nineteen ninety one? [James:] No other than the er er er the currencies pretty much the same er as I said of the important changes i is a much heavier emphasis on variable rates.... [David:] Yes [speaker004:] [cough] A are you still intending to favour internal spending vis-a-vis acquisition opportunities on the basis that acquisitions are just too overpriced or with the eleven percent gearing do you think you will be er jumping at the bit a bit fairly soon? [David:] Er I think, I think that er our organic growth tends to be erm er er continuous and er as you know each year we're spending erm substantial amounts er on that er... we prefer organic growth to acquisitions because we avoid er premiums in the long run er... frequently er organic growth is, is actually more profitable er... but... we are quite likely to make some acquisitions er if erm the right er strategic opportunities er are created. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] We o er as, as you know we always review er er er er our businesses as subject to a continual view, I have nothing er active to report on that front.... Yes? [speaker004:] erm shareholding in the current year? [David:] It's stayed around about the eight just over eight percent, there hasn't, there hasn't been much movement.... [speaker004:] Just on the export front [cough] increased optimism er can you just verify what export sales were last year and whether or not you managed to er er hold er local county prices overseas in respect of those exports? And what [David:] Y [speaker004:] sort of kick-offs if any there was on in transactional terms last year Royal Doulton month erm sorry eighteen month type basis? [David:] Yes. James? [James:] Erm well you've Stuart who erm had it at his fingertips equally, but er they have substantial, I, I'll let him talk about oh, over fifty percent export are you not Stuart? Your turn er and they have erm they do hedge this is I mean our policy is broadly to hedge er o on a twelve month rolling forecast forward er to what extent and what timing is a function of judgment and it is true that the erm er Doulton receivables for ninety three are seventy percent hedged already at a little above the current spot rate. Erm but er er I think will provide still very good factory profit for them and there is also of course er... this, there's still more to come. Th they're our largest exporter er there's inter-company sales which would gen can generate quite useful profits since they get sold on both of er Penguin companies er and Longman of course has a high content of erm er of er non-U K sales and Addison Wesley also er I mean Camco was the most international, but it's erm not er it's not an exporter in sterling denominated terms. [David:] Er but I think also the lower value of the pound er affects Madame Tussaud and the number of visitors here and Michael C O Madame Tussaud, would you Michael like to comment on tourist numbers? [speaker004:] Er obviously the erm... better for overseas visitors pound will help tourism in this country, particularly in London erm... the Chairman says Madame Tussauds in fact gets about sixty percent visitors over from overseas, Rock Circus at the moment is about fifty percent and it's still rising, which partially explains why it had a very good year last year. Warwick Castle gets about forty percent of visitors from overseas with whom a large proportion are Americans, and er I suggest that the increase in Americans this year... will be quite good compared with figures for last year, so we do benefit er I might even mention that in... Holland er over half the visitors Exhibition in Amsterdam are not Dutch, many of them are Germans, but there are also Americans and of course other overseas visitors there. So erm [cough] foreign earnings is important for us. Our parks, Alton Towers and Chessington get a very insignificant amount of overseas visitors which is normal for such places in this country and many other places in the world. But erm, we're... reasonably optimistic about visitor numbers. The concern in London particularly of course is the incidents of terrorist in of terrorist incidents, and that undoubtedly affected er visitation in London, not just at our places, but in most tourist attractions, particularly towards the end of last year. On the other hand it has to be said that the er publicity for that does not seem to have penetrated very far amongst foreign visitors and there isn't very much evidence that foreign visitors have been put off coming here in spite of the considerable number of incidents that there have been in this country, particularly in London of course in the last year or so. It's affected mainly the U K visitors. [David:] So we try not to mention them. [speaker004:] We try not to mention David. [David:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Did you did you consider er an accelerated second interim dividend? [David:] I'm glad you asked that... erm yes we did, we did give it consideration er... er we decided against it, because it would have meant er to declaring the dividend on Friday for technical reasons and announcing our results erm today and this could have been in danger of misleading er the market er because this lower results and we have an increased dividend and that was erm... probably the main reason why we decided that we wouldn't do it er the slight increase in net dividend in fact should compensate erm... and this is coincidence er er f fo for the increased A C T on the Yes? [speaker004:] Could you give us some indi... give us some indication as to how erm supportable the excellent performance in Penguin is likely to be through nineteen ninety three looking forward, you obviously have a particularly high level of best sellers? [David:] Well it was a particularly er high level of best sellers to erm er er Stephen King's erm and what I'm glad to say is that this is continuing into ninety three and I think we've got eight er eight best sellers on the, on the New York Times best seller list, so er... you know prospects for ninety three also look, look, look good.... [speaker004:] Yeah I believe recently have indicated they will start B-Sky-B will you and if so, when? [David:] James? [James:] Well they said maybe they will, maybe they won't [LAUGHTER] according to the press releases that turn up. Erm I think we're er er we're quite clear at the moment that the correct erm interpretation of it from our point of view is as a fixed asset investment... and unless something changes in the er constitution of the company, erm although it may be erm the guiding thing become profitable I think one's got to play by the rules and the rules at the moment say it isn't one.... [speaker004:] Which doesn't mean to say we won't have substantial erm P and L er contribution fro from B-Sky-B.... [David:] Any more questions er?... Well thank you very much indeed for coming... and er then if anybody wants to ask any further questions privately, they're welcome.

[speaker001:] Lot seventy does not have a horn with it... but Lot ninety two, the good news is it does have a reproducer... er... Lot one hundred and eleven should have a black dot against it to indicate that it will be removed from the premises if not cleared within the stated time... Lot one seven four is withdrawn... one nine one... the estimate should read eight to twelve hundred... and finally Lot one nine eight is withdrawn. Right, Lot one... is... on the screen now, yes, there it is, Lot one... fifty pounds for this, fifty pounds anyone? That's fifty pounds bid, fifty five... fifty five now, any more, fifty five. All on fifty five fifty five, any more? At fifty five, all done? Fifty five only... sixty down there, thank you, sixty on the left, sixty five... seventy, five... seventy against you on the left, now any more? Seventy five, you all done at seventy five... eighty... eighty pounds now, eighty five... eighty five, any more? At eighty five bid... standing... standing at eighty five against you all seated now, at ninety pounds, standing at the back and I'll sell at ninety pounds, are you all done, ninety pounds... ninety five just in time... one hundred... one ten... one twenty... one thirty... one thirty still on the left at the back at one thirty, any more now at a hundred and thirty pounds? Can I have the number sir. It is eight five seven, thank you very much. And Lot two... erm... two receivers and an H M V... pick-up attachment... Lot two... er... fifty for these, fifty pounds anyone? Fifty pounds... fifty pounds, anyone at fifty... fifty pounds, no one at fifty, twenty then, twenty pounds... twenty pounds... at twenty, twenty bid down there, thank you, any more at twenty? Twenty pounds, twenty two... twenty five, twenty eight... thirty... five... forty, five... forty five... forty five, all done at forty five, now any more? At forty five, fifty standing... fifty five... fifty five standing at fifty five, any more? Fifty five pounds... all done at fifty five, now any more at fifty... sixty... sixty pounds up there... all done then at sixty pounds Er Lot three... showing Lot three... the er Radio Year Book... fifty pounds anyone? At fifty pounds... fifty bid, sixty... seventy, seventy pounds... any more at seventy? Seventy pounds, five, any more? At seventy five... all done, at seventy five only, any more at seventy five pounds? Any more... at seventy five. And Lot four... is er... an Amplion speaker Lot four... and I've fifty offered, any more at fifty, alright sixty... sixty pounds, any more? At sixty, all done at sixty only, sixty five, seventy... five... eighty... five... eighty five stands, any more at eighty five pounds? All done at eighty five pounds... ninety... good for ninety five... one hundred seated... and ten... one ten on the right standing a hundred and ten... against you all at and twenty... one thirty... one thirty, on the right standing, at one thirty... are you all done at a hundred and thirty pounds. That's number... nine O six, thank you. And Lot five... there's Lot five, the er... V two... Lot five and I have four hundred pounds offered for this one... four hundred pounds and twenty... four... fifty, four eighty... at four hundred and eighty pounds, any more at four eighty? Five hundred... five hundred now, any more at five hundred... and fifty... five hundred and fifty pounds, any more at five fifty? at five hundred and fifty pounds against you, are you all done? At five hundred and fifty pounds... any more? For one three O. And Lot six... Brownie number two and...... Lot six... er fifty for these... fifty pounds... fifty, anyone at fifty? Fifty five, sixty, sixty pounds, any more... at sixty five, any more, seventy, seventy five... eighty... five... ninety... ninety standing, any more at ninety, all done? At ninety only, any more at ninety pounds, all done, ninety five... one hundred... one ten... one twenty... one twenty standing, any more at a hundred and twenty? All done at a hundred and twenty pounds. nine O six, thank you. Lot seven... is the Andia Cockatoo loudspeaker now showing, there it is, thank you, Lot seven... and two hundred is offered for this, two hundred pounds and twenty, two twenty... forty, sixty... two sixty now... any more at two sixty, all done? Two sixty, eighty, three hundred... three hundred pounds... any more at three hundred pounds, all done at three hundred pounds, and I'll sell... at three hundred pounds, any more? One one two five. Whoop. Lot eight... is the Pye transportable showing twenty pounds... at twenty pounds... twenty... twenty, twenty pounds... at twenty pounds... twenty pounds. Lot nine... is a Brownie number two... thank you, there it is, Lot nine... twenty for this one... twenty pounds... twenty twenty two... twenty five... twenty five seated, any more at twenty five pounds, at twenty five, twenty eight... thirty... thirty five... forty... forty five... fifty... fifty pounds down here... any more at fifty? I'll sell at fifty pounds... all done, fifty five standing...... standing at fifty five, sixty... sixty there... now, sixty five... seventy... seventy pounds on the right, any more? Against you on the aisle... so eighty at the back now... against you, all done at eighty pounds... right at the back, eighty pounds, are you all done? I'll sell at eighty pounds. Number three one O... thank you. [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] Lot ten... Gecophone number one and I have eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety... ninety pounds, any more? Ninety five... at ninety five, any more at ninety five pounds? All done then at ninety five, any more, ninety five, one hundred, one ten... against you now, a hundred and ten, twenty, one thirty... at one thirty with me, all done at one thirty? I shall sell then, it's with me at a hundred and thirty pounds.. Lot eleven... two Pye portables, Lot eleven... fifty for them, fifty anyone? At fifty pounds... fifty... fifty pounds... at fifty pounds... fifty pounds. And Lot twelve... is the Ediswan mains receiver, Lot twelve... and I have forty offered for this, any more at forty? Forty pounds, any more? At forty, all done then at forty five standing, fifty... fifty five, sixty... sixty five... standing at sixty five, any more... at sixty five... all done at sixty five, seventy... seventy five... eighty... eighty five... ninety... ninety five... one hundred... one ten... one twenty... one thirty... forty... one fifty... sixty... one sixty. one sixty, any more at a hundred and sixty pounds, at one sixty... any more? thank you very much. And Lot thirteen... [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] is the Grafonola... with some needle tins and things, Lot thirteen, twenty for them, twenty pounds... at thirty pounds, anyone at twenty... twenty pounds, twenty three, any more, twenty... at twenty pounds... any advance on twenty pounds, two, five eight, thirty... thirty pounds against you, thirty five... forty... forty five... fifty... fifty five... sixty... sixty five... seventy... seventy five... standing at seventy five pounds now, any more... at seventy five at the back, I'll sell at seventy five pounds. and Lot fourteen... is the cabinet now showing, thank you, Lot fourteen, fifty for it... fifty pounds anywhere at fifty... at fifty pounds... fifty... at fifty pounds... fifty pounds, anywhere at fifty... unwanted then at fifty pounds... fifty pounds.... Lot fifteen... thank you, is... two portables, Lot fifteen, twenty for them... twenty pounds anywhere... at twenty... at twenty pounds... any more at twenty... twenty two... twenty five... twenty five pounds down there, twenty eight... thirty... thirty five... forty... five... fifty... five... sixty... five... seventy... seventy pounds seated, now any more at seventy, seventy five... eighty... eighty five... ninety... ninety five... one hundred... one ten... one twenty... one twenty seated, any more at one twenty? All done then, I'll sell at a hundred and twenty pounds. And the number is... nine one seven, thank you, Lot sixteen... mahogany cabinet gramophone, there it is, Lot sixteen, twenty for it... twenty pounds anywhere? At twenty pounds... twenty bid... twenty two... twenty five, twenty eight... twenty eight pounds against you now, any more at twenty eight? All done at twenty eight pounds then, any more, thirty... five... thirty five against you standing, thirty five, all done then, at thirty five pounds, any more? Forty... forty five... fifty... on the fifty pounds, any more at fifty and I'll sell at fifty pounds. The number is... nine two seven, thank you, Lot seventeen... is a Stroviol... and a couple of bows to go with it, Lot seventeen... and I have sixty offered for these, five, seventy... five... seventy five pounds, any more? At seventy five, eighty five... ninety five... one hundred, one ten... against you now, one twenty... one thirty... one forty, one fifty... with me, one sixty... near the back at one sixty there, any more at one sixty? All done at a hundred and sixty pounds... one seventy... one seventy now on the... one eighty... one ninety... one ninety two hundred... two hundred pounds. All done at two hundred and I'll sell at two hundred pounds. Eight six one, thank you. Lot eighteen is the H M V Model thirteen... there it is, thank you... various accessories to go with it, Lot eighteen... hundred pounds for it, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds... one hundred... one hundred bid, ten, twenty... one thirty... any more at a hundred and thirty pounds? All done at a hundred and thirty only, one forty, one fifty... sixty, one seventy... eighty... ninety... standing at one ninety, any more? All done then? Bidding two hundred... two two twenty on the aisle... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] bidding... two forty... bidding? Er two sixty... two eighty... two eighty the bid, any more at two eighty now? I'll sell at two hundred and eighty pounds... are you all done at two hundred and eighty pounds. And your number? Eight six three. And Lot nineteen... is the H M V Model... one six three, now showing, thank you, Lot nineteen and I've three hundred offered and twenty [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] three eighty, four hundred and twenty... four eight, four fifty, four eighty... at four eighty now, any more at four eighty? Four hundred and eighty pounds... all done at four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty... at six fifty now, any more? It's with me at six hundred and fifty pounds... all done at six fifty then? I'll sell... at six hundred and fifty pounds... any more? One three six. Lot twenty... is a Pathe Gaulois... glass horn, there it is now showing, Lot twenty and I have... three hundred offered, three twenty... three fifty... three eighty, four hundred... twenty... fifty, four eighty... at four hundred and eighty pounds... any more at four eighty, five hundred and fifty... five fifty, any more? Five fifty, six hundred, six fifty... six hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Six... seven hundred, seven fifty... seven hundred and fifty... eight hundred... on my right now at eight hundred pounds, any more? At eight hundred, eight fifty... eight fifty on my left... nine hundred... nine hundred pounds, any more? It's against you... bidding on my right at nine hundred pounds, now any more... at nine hundred pounds? You all done then, on my right... nine hundred pounds... any more? All done? Six six five, thank you. Lot twenty one... the lacquer cabinet gramophone... thank you, there it is showing, twenty for this... twenty pounds anywhere... at twenty... twenty pounds any more at twenty? All done at twenty only, two... five... eight... thirty... five... forty... five... forty five standing, any more at forty five pounds? Fifty... fifty five... sixty... five... seventy... seventy pounds standing there, any more at seventy? I'll sell then... seventy five... eighty... five... ninety... five... one hundred, one ten... twenty, thirty... one thirty... on the left now at the back one thirty... are you all done at one hundred and thirty pounds? Number... nine six seven, thank you. Er Lot twenty two... is a Beltona portable... there it is, thank you... thirty offered for this, any more at thirty? Thirty pounds, any more? Five, forty... at forty pounds... any more? At forty, all done at forty pounds... five... fifty... five, sixty... five, seventy... five, eighty... five... eighty five at the back, any more? Eighty five pounds then, at the back and I'll sell at eighty five, ninety on the aisle, ninety five... one hundred... one ten... one twenty... one twenty on the aisle, at one twenty, are you all done at a hundred and twenty pounds?. Now Lot twenty three... a red portable one O one, there it is, Lot twenty three... twenty for it... twenty pounds anywhere... at thirty pounds, thirty... twenty bid, thank you, any more at thirty... thirty five... forty... five... fifty... five... sixty... five... seventy... seventy pounds seated, any more at seventy? Five... eighty... eighty five... ninety... ninety pounds ninety... are you all done and I'll sell at ninety pounds. one seven, thank you. Lot twenty four... this is the model one six three... there it is, thank you, I'd like two hundred offered for this one... two hundred pounds... any more at two hundred? Two hundred pounds, any more? At two hundred pounds, are you all done at two hundred, two twenty, two forty... two sixty, two eighty... three hundred, three twenty... three fifty, three eighty... three eighty with me now... four hundred... on my right at four hundred pounds, are you all done at four hundred? I shall sell then at four hundred pounds. Five seven six, thank you. Lot twenty five... little red Peter Pan... there it is now showing, thank you and I've a hundred pounds offered for this, any more at one hundred? One hundred pounds and ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty... one fifty, one sixty... seventy, eighty, one ninety, two hundred... and twenty... two twenty seated, any more? At two hundred and twenty pounds... two forty... two sixty, two eighty... three hundred... three hundred pounds, three twenty on the aisle... three fifty... three eighty... three eighty on the aisle, bidding sir? for three... that bid's on the aisle, three eighty, any more at three hundred, four hundred... four hundred and twenty... on the aisle at four twenty, now any more at four hundred and twenty pounds and I shall sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Lot twenty six... is the Edison disc phonograph, there it is, thank you, Lot twenty six, hundred pounds for this, one hundred anywhere, one hundred pounds bid, ten, twenty, any more at one twenty, thirty... one thirty now, any more? You all done at one thirty, one forty, one fifty... one sixty, seventy... one eighty... one eighty on the right, any more? At a hundred and eighty pounds, standing on my right at a hundred and eighty pounds, are you all done? I shall sell at one hundred and eighty pounds, any more. That's number... five seven six, thank you. Lot twenty seven... is the cottage gramophone... there it is, thank you, Lot twenty seven and I have a hundred offered and ten, twenty, one thirty... forty, one fifty, any more at one fifty? One hundred and fifty, sixty, seventy... one seventy now, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty... in the front at three twenty now, any more? At three hundred and twenty in the front row and I'll sell at three twenty, are you all done at three hundred and twenty pounds. thank you. Lot twenty eight... is a Klingsor... there's the Klingsor now showing, Lot twenty eight and I have five hundred offered for it, any advance on five hundred pounds? Five hundred pounds, any more? At five hundred, all done at five fifty, six hundred... six fifty, seven hundred... seven hundred pounds with me now, any more? At seven hundred pounds, seven fifty... eight hundred... eight hundred, it's against you now, any more at eight hundred pounds still with me at eight hundred, are you all done at eight hundred pounds? I shall sell then at eight hundred pounds, against you all in the room. Number one two nine. And Lot twenty nine... is a Mikkyphone, that kind of Mikkyphone, Lot twenty nine... and I have a hundred pounds offered, any more at a hundred? One hundred pounds and ten, one twenty... one twenty, it's against you now, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty... against you at one sixty, the bid's with me at one sixty, any more? One seventy on the aisle... one eighty... one ninety... down on the aisle at one ninety now, any more? At a hundred and ninety... two hundred... two twenty... two twenty, any more bids? On the aisle at two twenty now, are you all done at two twenty? I'll sell then at two hundred and twenty pounds. thank you. Lot thirty... is a Peter Pan... there it is now showing, Lot thirty... a hundred pounds for it, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds, one hundred and ten, one twenty... thirty, forty... one forty standing, any more at one forty? All done then at a hundred and forty pounds, standing at the back, one fifty... one sixty... one seventy, one eighty... one eighty standing, any more at one eighty? It's against you seated and I'll sell at one hundred and eighty pounds, one ninety... two hundred... standing at two hundred now, against you seated, are you all done at two hundred pounds? six six, thank you. Lot thirty one... is the Model four six one, Lot thirty one... there it is now showing, thank you, fifty for it? Fifty pounds anywhere at fifty? At fifty, fifty pounds bid, five, sixty... sixty pounds... five, any more? Sixty five all done at sixty five now, any more? Six, seventy, thank you, standing, seventy five... eighty... eighty five... ninety... standing at ninety pounds, against you seated at ninety pounds, are you all done? I shall sell then at ninety pounds, any more, ninety five... ninety five on my left, now any more at ninety five pounds? I'll sell at ninety five. Number... eight six, thank you. Lot thirty two... [clears throat] is... the H M V one O one showing now, Lot thirty two... and I have fifty offered for these, five, sixty... sixty pounds... any more at sixty? At sixty pounds, five, seventy... five, eighty... five, ninety... ninety pounds, any more? Ninety five... one hundred standing... standing at a hundred pounds now, any more? [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] At a hundred pounds, are you all done? And ten... one hundred and ten up here on my right, any more at a hundred and ten pounds? I shall sell then at one hundred, and twenty... one twenty, at a hundred and twenty pounds, are you all finished at one hundred and twenty pounds? And thirty, just in time, any more then at a hundred and thirty pounds. And the number's, thank you. Lot thirty three... is a horn gramophone... there showing, thank you, Lot thirty three... erm... a hundred and fifty offered for this... one hundred and fifty pounds, any more? One fifty, one sixty, one seventy... one seventy now, any more at a hundred and seventy? All done then at a hundred and seventy, one eighty seated, one ninety... two hundred, two twenty, forty... two sixty... two hundred and sixty pounds, any more at two sixty? All done at a hundred and sixty, any more at two... two eighty... seated then at two hundred and eighty pounds... any more, are you all done? At two hundred and eighty pounds. nine three, thank you. Lot thirty four... another horn gramophone now showing, thank you and I have two hundred offered for this, twenty, two forty, two sixty, any more at two sixty? Two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty... on my right at three eighty now, any more? At three hundred and eighty pounds there and I shall sell at three hundred and eighty pounds. thank you. Lot thirty five... is the French phonograph now showing, Lot thirty five... a hundred is offered for this, one hundred pounds and ten, one twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty? One hundred and thirty pounds, any more? One forty, one fifty... sixty, one seventy... eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty... forty, sixty... one sixty, any more? Two sixty, two eighty... two eighty down there now any more at two eighty? You all done then at two hundred and eighty pounds? Three hundred seated... three twenty... three twenty standing, all done at three twenty and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds, three fifty... three eighty... three hundred and eighty pounds standing, any more? Bidding? Four hundred... four twenty... four twenty standing, any more? Four twenty standing then and I'll sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. Nine... seven six, thank you. And Lot thirty six is a Puck... there it is, thank you, Lot thirty six, fifty for this... fifty pounds anywhere at fifty? Fifty pounds... fifty bid, thank you, fifty five... sixty... sixty five, seventy, five, eighty, five, ninety, five... one hundred, one ten... twenty, thirty, forty, one fifty... one sixty... one sixty at the back, any more at one sixty? I shall sell then, one seventy new bidder... one seventy on the aisle, now any more at a hundred and seventy, one eighty... one eighty at the back again, all done then at a hundred and eighty pounds. thank you. Lot thirty seven... is an Edison Gem phonograph... as you can see it has some cylinders with it... er fifty pounds for it, fifty pounds any bids, five, sixty, five, seventy... five, eighty, ninety, one hundred... a hundred pounds and ten... any more at a hundred and ten? One hundred and ten pounds, any more? One twenty, one thirty... one forty, one fifty... sixty, one seventy, one eighty... one eighty up here, any more at one eighty? One ninety... two hundred, two twenty... two forty, two sixty... two sixty seated, any more at two sixty? All done then at two hundred and sixty pounds... two eighty new bidder... three hundred... three hundred pounds, all done at three hundred then I'll sell at three hundred pounds. thank you. Lot thirty eight... is the mahogany Monarch with brass horn now showing, thank you, I've five hundred pounds offered, any more at five hundred? Five hundred pounds, any more? At five fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand... one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred... five hundred... at one thousand five hundred pounds on my right, six hundred... seven hundred... one thousand seven hundred pounds on my right now, any more at one thousand seven hundred pounds? I shall sell then at one thousand seven hundred pounds. Number nine seven six, thank you. And Lot thirty nine... is four six O, there it is, Lot thirty nine... two hundred offered for it, any more at two hundred, and twenty... two hundred and twenty pounds, any more? At two forty, two sixty... two eighty, three hundred... three twenty, three fifty... three eighty, four hundred... and twenty, four fifty... four eighty, five hundred, and fifty... five fifty standing now, any more? At five hundred and fifty pounds, all done then? Six hundred new bidder... six, six fifty... six fifty standing... seven hundred, seven fifty... seven fifty standing, all done at seven fifty then and I shall sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. one two, thank you. Lot forty... is the Zonophone advertisement now showing, thank you, Lot forty for which I have eighty pounds offered, ninety, one hundred and ten, one twenty, one thirty... one thirty standing, any more at one thirty? All done? Standing at the back, one thirty and I'll sell at one hundred and thirty pounds. thank you. Lot forty one... Edison Gem... there it is, Lot forty one... eighty is offered for this... eighty pounds, ninety, one hundred... one hundred against you now, any more? At a hundred pounds, all done then at a hundred and ten, twenty... one thirty, one forty... fifty, one sixty... seventy, one eighty... one eighty with me, it's, any more at one eighty? I shall sell then at a hundred and eighty pounds, are you all done at one eighty? Lot forty two... two Columbia portables... there they are now, thank you, Lot forty two, fifty for them... fifty pounds anywhere for the portables? Twenty then, twenty pounds... twenty pounds at the back, any more? Twenty two... five... eight standing... twenty eight pounds standing now, any more at twenty eight, thirty, thirty five, forty... forty five, fifty... fifty pounds on my right, any more at fifty? Fifty five... fifty five at the back, any more at fifty five pounds? [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Sixty on the aisle... sixty five... sixty five standing, all done at sixty five pounds? I shall sell then at sixty five pounds... seventy, just in time, any more at seventy? It's on the aisle now at seventy pounds. And that number is... nine two seven, thank you. And Lot forty three... is an H M V one O one... and a Columbia as well thank you, Lot forty three and I have forty offered for these, any more at forty? Five, fifty... five, sixty... sixty pounds with me, any more? Sixty five, seventy, five, eighty... eighty pounds, any more? Five, ninety... ninety pounds with me, any more at ninety? I'll sell them at ninety pounds, ninety five, one hundred... one hundred pounds still with me, any more? Are you all done at one hundred pounds. six one. Lot forty four... there it is now showing, Lot forty four... twenty for this, twenty pounds anywhere? At twenty... two in the Lot... twenty pounds anywhere? Twenty bid, twenty two... five, eight... thirty... five... thirty five pounds, any more? Forty... forty pounds standing, any more at forty? Bidding? Standing then at forty pounds, are you all done and I'll sell, forty five... fifty... fifty pounds standing, any more at fifty? Are you all done then at fifty pounds and I shall sell at fifty pounds. Nine six O, thank you. And Lot forty five... thank you, Lot forty five is... that's Lot forty five... an Edison Home phonograph Lot forty five, an Edison Home phonograph with H reproducer and large brass horn... and I have two hundred pounds offered for it, two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred? Two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty... three eighty, it's against you now, any more at three eighty? The bid's with me at three hundred and eighty pounds and I shall sell, are you all done at three hundred and eighty pounds.. Lot forty six... Trade-Mark gramophone, there it is on the screen now, Lot forty six... I've a thousand pounds offered for this, one thousand pounds, any advance on a thousand? One hundred... two hundred... three hundred, four hundred... five hundred, six hundred... seven hundred... one thousand seven hundred pounds standing, any more? One thousand eight hundred... nine hundred... two thousand... two thousand two hundred... two thousand two hundred pounds, any more? Two thousand four hundred... two thousand six hundred... standing at two thousand six hundred pounds, any more? Two thousand six hundred pounds and I shall sell at two thousand six hundred pounds. Three two seven, thank you. Lot forty seven... is five postcards... there's the two, there they are... twenty pounds for them... twenty anywhere? At twenty pounds... twenty... twenty pounds... twenty is bid, thank you, in the doorway, any more at twenty? I'll sell them at twenty pounds then, in a single bid, are you all done at twenty pounds? Any more, it's in the doorway at twenty pounds... twenty two... twenty two near me now, any more at twenty two pounds? All finished at twenty two, twenty five... twenty eight... twenty eight still, twenty eight then, all done now at twenty eight pounds. Number...... nine one five, thank you. Lot forty eight... a Style number six now showing, thank you, Lot forty eight... and I have three hundred offered, three twenty, three fifty... three hundred and fifty pounds, any more at three fifty? All done, three eighty, four hundred... four twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred... and fifty, six hundred... and fifty, seven hundred and fifty... at seven hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Eight hundred and fifty... nine hundred... and fifty... one thousand... one hundred... two hundred... three hundred... one thousand, one thousand three hundred pounds then... one thousand three hundred pounds, all done? One thousand three on my right standing and I'll sell at one thousand three hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. And Lot forty nine is the drip-pan Gem... there it is, Lot forty nine... a hundred pounds offered, hundred and ten, one twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty? Forty, one fifty, sixty... seventy... eighty... one ninety... two hundred and twenty... forty.... sixty... two eighty... three hundred... three twenty... three fifty... three eighty... four hundred... four twenty... four fifty... four eighty... five hundred... and fifty... five fifty on the right then, any more at five hundred and fifty and I'll sell at five hundred and fifty pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. And Lot fifty... is a suitcase Standard, there it is now, Lot fifty for which I have a hundred and fifty offered, sixty, one seventy, one eighty... one ninety... two hundred, two twenty... two forty, two sixty... two eighty, three hundred... and twenty, three twenty seated, any more? At three twenty, all done then at three twenty now seated and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. Number eight nine three. Lot fifty one is a suitcase Home, there it is now showing, Lot fifty one, two hundred for this... two hundred anywhere? Two hundred pounds anywhere? Two hundred, two hundred bid... and twenty... forty, two sixty, two eighty... three hundred... three twenty... three twenty now, any more? At three twenty, three fifty standing, three eighty... four hundred... four hundred pounds standing, now any more at four hundred? Bidding sir? four hundred standing, four twenty on the aisle... four fifty... four fifty standing at the back, any more at four fifty? Four eighty... five hundred down there... five fifty... at five fifty there now, any more? At five fifty, it's against you all on the left, at five fifty, any more at five hundred and fifty pounds? is nine seven six, thank you. Lot fifty two is an Excelsior... there it is, Lot fifty two, hundred for, one hundred anywhere? One hundred bid and ten, one twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred, two twenty, two forty, two sixty... eighty... two hundred and eighty pounds standing... any more? Three hundred, three twenty... three fifty, three eighty... four hundred... four hundred on my right now, any more at four hundred? [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] I shall sell then at four hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot fifty three... is an Edison Gem... there it is... you can see it now... Lot fifty three and I have a hundred and fifty offered for this, sixty, one seventy, one eighty... ninety, two hundred... two hundred, yes, two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty... two sixty near the back seated, any more? Two eighty... three hundred, three twenty... three twenty standing, any more at three twenty? All done then and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. Nine two three, thank you. Lot fifty four is the Fireside... Fireside Fireside horn, there it is, thank you, Lot fifty four... two hundred offered, twenty, forty, two sixty... two hundred and sixty pounds, any more? At two sixty, all done at two sixty only? Two eighty, three hundred... three twenty... three fifty, three eighty, four hundred... and twenty... four fifty... eighty... five hundred... and fifty, six hundred and fifty... six hundred and fifty pounds, any more at six fifty? Seven hundred... seven fifty... seven hundred and fifty pounds, all done then and I'll sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. seven six, thank you. Lot fifty five... four phonograph horns... and... Lot fifty five, fifty for them... fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty bid, thank you, five... sixty, five... seventy, five... against you seventy five, eighty... eighty five... ninety... at ninety pounds up here, any more? Ninety five... one hundred... one ten... one twenty... one thirty... one hundred and thirty seated, one forty... one fifty... one sixty... one sixty standing, any more? Bidding? Standing then at one sixty, are you all done, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety... two hundred... two twenty... two twenty on the left standing, any more at two twenty? All done then? Two forty... two forty standing at the back now, all done at two hundred and forty pounds. Nine two four, thank you. And Lot fifty six... is the gramophone horn basket... there it is, thank you, with the horn inside... er fifty is offered for this, fifty five, sixty, five, sixty five pounds, any more? Seventy, seventy five, eighty... five... ninety, ninety five... one hundred, one ten, one twenty, one thirty, forty... one forty down there, any more at one forty? All done? Any more at one hundred, one fifty... one sixty, one sixty in the centre, any more? Seventy... one seventy, one eighty... one eighty... one eighty, are you all done at one hundred and eighty pounds seated in the centre. number is... nine one seven, thank you. Lot fifty seven is the car mascot... there it is, Lot fifty seven... I've a hundred and fifty offered for this, sixty, one seventy, one eighty... one hundred and eighty pounds, any more? One eighty, one ninety two hundred, two twenty, two forty... two forty now, any more? Two sixty, two eighty... two eighty, three hundred... three twenty... three fifty... three eighty... four hundred... four twenty... four fifty... four fifty at the back on the right, any more at four fifty? Four eighty... against you now at five hundred... five fifty... five fifty seated, any more at five fifty, it's against you all on the right now... five hundred and fifty pounds. Number again is... nine one seven, thank you. Fifty seven A, an additional Lot... the H M V Silver Shield, there it is now... a hundred pounds for this, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds...... one hundred pounds for the Silver Shield is bid, thank you, any more at a hundred? One hundred pounds now, any more? At a hundred and ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred... two hundred pounds seated near the back, two twenty standing... any more at two twenty, at two twenty, two forty... two forty seated now, any more at forty? I shall sell then at two hundred and forty pounds, two sixty... two sixty on my right, any more at two hundred and pounds? And the number is eight six eight, thank you very much. Lot fifty eight... collection of record pads and bits and pieces... for which I have a hundred pounds offered, and ten, one twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty, forty, one fifty, one sixty, one seventy... one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty... two forty... two forty on the left at the back, any more at two forty, two sixty, two eighty... two eighty... three hundred... three twenty... three twenty on the left near the back now, at three twenty, are you, it's your bid, sir, at three twenty pounds, any more at three twenty and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. number is nine five eight, thank you. Lot fifty nine... gramophone spare parts this one, Lot fifty nine for which I have... two hundred pounds offered and twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty, any more at three twenty? Three fifty, three eighty... three hundred and eighty pounds now, any more, it's against you all at three hundred and eighty, any more? Four hundred... four hundred pounds and twenty... yes four twenty... bid's with me now at four twenty and I'll sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. One three six. And Lot sixty... Edison Combination Attachments... there we are, Lot sixty... er... fifty for these, fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty, fifty pounds... twenty then, twenty pounds... twenty pounds bid, twenty two, five eight, thirty, five, forty, five, fifty... five... fifty five pounds, any more? Sixty... five... seventy... seventy five... eighty... eighty five... ninety, five... one hundred... one ten... twenty... thirty... one forty... fifty... one sixty... standing at one sixty now, any more at one sixty? And I shall sell at a hundred and sixty pounds., thank you. And Lot sixty one... phonograph spare parts this time... there we are, Lot sixty one and I have a hundred offered and ten, one twenty, one thirty... any more? One forty, one fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty... one ninety, two hundred... and twenty... there standing at two twenty, two forty, two sixty... two six two eighty... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] three hundred... three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred? All done at three hundred now, all done? Three hundred pounds. thank you. And Lot sixty two... is the Edison ephemera, Lot sixty two, and I've a hundred offered for this, one hundred pounds, any more? At a hundred pounds, any more at a hundred, and ten, one twenty... one thirty, one forty... fifty, one sixty... seventy, one eighty... one ninety, two hundred... two hundred pounds, against you at the back, two hundred, two twenty... front row now at two hundred and twenty pounds, two forty, two sixty... two eighty... three hundred... and twenty... three twenty on the right seated, any more at three twenty? It's against you at the front and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds., thank you. And Lot sixty three... is the red Gem carrier arm now showing with an N reproducer... I have sixty pounds offered, any more at sixty? Sixty pounds, any more? At sixty, all done then at sixty pounds... any more? I'll sell at sixty, sixty five, seventy... seventy five, eighty... eighty five, ninety... ninety pounds with me, it's against you seated, at ninety pounds, all done now and I shall sell at ninety pounds, any more at ninety pounds. six O. Lot sixty four... is er advertising... items, records and other bits and pieces for which I have sixty pounds offered, any more at sixty... five... seventy... five, eighty five, ninety five, one hundred... ten, one twenty... thirty, one forty, one hundred and forty pounds with me, are you all done, one fifty in the middle, one sixty... one seventy... one hundred and seventy, any more? At a hundred and seventy pounds seated on the right... one eighty standing... one ninety... one ninety on the right seated, any more at one ninety, all done then at one hundred and ninety, two hundred... two twenty... two twenty, any more? Against you at two twenty... two forty... two sixty... two sixty seated on the right, any more at two sixty? At two sixty then, there I'll sell at two hundred and sixty pounds. Eight two two, thank you. Lot sixty five... is an album of postcards, Lot sixty five for which I have four hundred pounds offered and twenty, four fifty, four eighty... four hundred and eighty pounds, five hundred... five hundred now and fifty, six hundred and fifty, six fifty, any more? At six hundred and fifty pounds seven hundred, seven fifty... eight hundred and fifty... nine hundred... nine hundred pounds on the right seated, any more? At nine hundred pounds now, all done? At nine hundred and I shall sell at nine hundred pounds down there at nine hundred pounds. thank you. Lot sixty six... is the Columbia B Q, there it is, Lot sixty six... four hundred pounds offered, four twenty, four fifty... four hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred... and fifty... seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred... against you now at eight hundred and fifty... seated there at the back at eight fifty... nine hundred... standing at nine hundred, nine fifty, one thousand... one thousand pounds, any more? One thousand pounds, standing at the back then at one thousand pounds, against you seated and I'll sell at one thousand, any more at one thousand pounds? thank you. Lot sixty seven... thank you, is the typewriter showing now, Lambert typewriter... hundred pounds for it, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds, thank you, any more at a hundred? One hundred pounds... and ten... one twenty, one thirty, forty, one fifty... one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred... on my right at two hundred pounds, any more? At two twenty... two forty... two sixty... two eighty... three hundred... and twenty, three twenty on my right, any more at thee twenty, three fifty... three eighty... three eighty on my right, all done at three eighty and I shall sell at three hundred and eighty pounds. thank you. Lot sixty eight... Edison stand, there it is now, Lot sixty eight... er... three hundred is offered for this, three hundred pounds... and twenty, three fifty... three eighty, any more at three eighty? Four hundred... four hundred and twenty, four fifty... four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, near the back, seven fifty seated, any more? Eight hundred... eight fifty... nine hundred... nine fifty... one thousand... one thousand pounds standing now on my right, any more at a thousand pounds, are you all done, it's up there and I'll sell at one thousand pounds. Nine seven six, thank you very much. And Lot sixty nine... Edison Standard, there it is, Lot sixty nine, two hundred is offered for this, and twenty, any more at two twenty? Two forty... two forty now, any more at two forty, sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty... three twenty with me now... three fifty... at the back, three fifty, any more? At three fifty and I'll sell at three hundred and fifty pounds. Eight nine three, thank you. Lot seventy... Edison Bell Standard, there is no horn included with this Lot, please note, Lot seventy and I have two hundred pounds offered and twenty, two forty, sixty, two eighty... three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four hundred pounds against you then at the back now, any more at four hundred, it's with me, four twenty, four fifty, four eighty... on my left seated at four eighty... any more now at four hundred and eighty pounds? And it's eight six three, thank you very much. Lot seventy one... a Stroviol now showing... and I have fifty pounds offered, five, sixty, five, seventy... seventy pounds, any more? At seventy five, eighty, five, ninety... five... ninety five at the back now, any more? One hundred and ten, one twenty... one twenty seated, any more at one twenty? Bidding? One thirty... one forty... one forty now, any more? One fifty... one sixty on the aisle, one seventy... one eighty... any more? One ninety... one ninety, two hundred... two hundred pounds near the back, any more? Two twenty... [tape change]... on my left up here, any more at two twenty? I shall sell then at two hundred and twenty pounds. The number is... is it eight six three?...... [speaker002:] [noise background] [speaker001:] Er Lot seventy two... someone fed up? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] At fifty for it's offered... fifty pounds... at fifty pounds bid... five, sixty... sixty pounds, any more? At sixty... all done at sixty? Sixty five... seventy... five... eighty... five... eighty five up here, any more? At eighty five now, all done at eighty five pounds, all done on my right and I'll sell at eighty five pounds is there's no further bids at eighty five pounds., thank you. Lot seventy three... is the Moscow Pathephone, there it is, Lot seventy three, fifty for this one... fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty bid, five, sixty, five, seventy, five, eighty... eighty five, ninety, five, one hundred, one ten... one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty... one sixty at the back, any more at one sixty? All done then at a hundred and sixty pounds... at the back. Eight two six. Lot seventy four is the Concert... that's it, yes there it is the er Edison Concert, Lot seventy four... five hundred offered for starters, five hundred pounds, any more at five hundred? Fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred, seven hundred pounds, any more? At seven hundred pounds, all done at seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred, and fifty, nine hundred, and fifty, one thousand... one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred... at one thousand five hundred on the right now, any more? One thousand five hundred pounds, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred... nine hundred, two thousand, two thousand two hundred, thousand four hundred, thousand six hundred, thousand eight hundred, three thousand... three thousand pounds on my right there, now any more? At three thousand pounds then, are you all done at three thousand pounds. Number nine seven six, thank you. Lot seventy five... is the reproduction Berliner, there it is, Lot seventy five... hundred for, one hundred pounds anywhere? One hundred pounds is bid, thank you, any more? And ten... against you now at a hundred and ten pounds, one twenty on the aisle, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty, near me at one sixty, any more at a hundred and sixty pounds, seventy... one eighty... one ninety... any more? Two hundred... two hundred pounds against you now at the back, now any more at two hundred? Are you all done then? It's up here and I'll sell... two twenty new bidder... two twenty now... two twenty then it's half way down on the left at two twenty and I'll sell at two... two forty... two sixty... still against you... two sixty, it's down there and I'll sell at two hundred and sixty pounds. is eight six four, thank you. Seventy six... thank you, is the Victor now showing, Lot seventy six, two hundred offered for this, two hundred pounds and twenty, any more? Forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty... standing at three eighty now, any more? At three eighty then, all done at three eighty, four hundred and twenty... four fifty, four eighty... five hundred and fifty... six hundred and fifty... six hundred and fifty standing, any more at six fifty? Seven hundred, seven fifty... standing at seven fifty, any more? All done, seven hundred and fifty then and I'll sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. six six. Lot seventy seven is a Style four gramophone and there it is, Lot seventy seven... three hundred offered for this one, three hundred pounds and twenty... three fifty, any more at three fifty? Three hundred and fifty pounds, all done then? Three eighty, four hundred... four twenty, four fifty... four eighty, five hundred... and fifty... six hundred... and fifty, seven hundred... and fifty... it's on the left at seven fifty now, eight hundred behind you... against you now... eight fifty... nine hundred standing... nine fifty... one thousand... one thousand pounds standing on the left at the back, one hundred... two hundred... three hundred, one one thousand three hundred pounds, that's against... any more at one thousand three hundred, four hundred, five hundred... one thousand five hundred standing, any more? One thousand five hundred pounds then, are you all done at one thousand five hundred pounds? thank you. Lot seventy eight... is the red Gem now showing, thank you, Lot seventy eight for which I have three hundred offered, and twenty, three fifty, three eighty... four hundred, any more at four hundred? Four hundred pounds and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred... seven hundred pounds with me now, any more at seven hundred pounds? Against you all, seven fifty... at the back now standing at seven hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at seven fifty? I'll sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. Nine two three. Lot seventy nine... is the Pathe now showing, Lot seventy nine and I have pounds offered for it and sixty, any more at one sixty? Seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred... at two hundred pounds, against you, any more? Two hundred and twenty, two forty... two sixty... on my right now at two sixty, any more? At two hundred and sixty pounds and I'll sell at two hundred and sixty pounds. Number nine seven six, thank you. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Lot eighty... Edison Bell Gem, there it is, Lot eighty... hundred for it, hundred pounds anywhere? One hundred pounds, one hundred for the Gem, one hundred pounds... one hundred pounds bid, thank you, and ten... twenty, thirty, forty, one fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, ninety, two hundred, two twenty, two forty, two sixty... two sixty seated, any more at two sixty? Two eighty... three hundred and twenty... three twenty, all done then at three twenty, any more at three hundred and twen three fifty new bidder... against you at the back now, bid's on my left at three fifty and I'll sell, the bid's here at three hundred and fifty pounds. Er... eight six three, thank you very much. Lot eighty one... is the Victor... thank you, there it is now showing, Lot eighty one... a hundred and fifty is offered for this, one hundred and fifty pounds, any more? At one sixty, one seventy... eighty, one ninety... two hundred, two twenty... forty, two sixty... two... eighty... two eighty at the back seated, any more at two eighty? Three hundred sir, twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four twenty, fifty, four eighty, five hundred... five hundred... you offered five hundred? Five hundred pounds standing, against you seated now, any more? At five hundred then... five fifty in the front... here at five fifty, are you all done at five hundred and fifty pounds? Up here., thanks very much. Lot eighty two... an Edison Amberola seventy five... now on the screen, Lot eighty two and I have three hundred pounds offered for this, any more? Three hundred and twenty, three fifty... three hundred and fifty pounds now, it's with me still at three fifty, any more? Three fifty then and I shall sell at three fifty, three eighty, four hundred... four hundred pounds now, still with me at four hundred, against you all in the room and I'll sell at four hundred pounds. Four four six. Lot eighty three is a Busy Bee... there's the Busy Bee, Lot eighty three..., hundred pounds for it? Hundred pounds anywhere? One hundred is bid, ten, twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty? One hundred and thirty pounds, any more? All done at one thirty, any more one fifty... sixty, seventy... one eighty... one, one ninety... two hundred... two twenty... two forty... two forty at the very back there, any more at two forty? All done then at two hundred and forty pounds, all done? Two hundred and, two sixty... two eighty... two eighty standing at two eighty against you seated and I'll sell at two hundred and eighty pounds. Number three one O, thank you. Lot eighty four... is the New Compton now showing, Lot eighty four, two hundred is offered, any more at two hundred? Two hundred pounds, any more? Two twenty... forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, and twenty, three fifty... standing at three fifty then, any more? At three hundred eighty, four hundred... four twenty, four fifty... standing at four hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Four eighty, five hundred... five hundred pounds, five fifty, six hundred... at six hundred pounds standing now against you all seated, six fifty... six fifty seated on the aisle at six hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at six hundred and fifty pounds. Nine two eight, thank you. And Lot eighty five... now showing, thank you, a Zon-O-Phone, Lot eighty five... two hundred offered, any more at two hundred? Two twenty, forty... two sixty, any more at two sixty? Two hundred and sixty pounds, all done at two sixty? Two eighty, three hundred, and twenty... against you there at three twenty it's there, are you all done? Three fifty... three eighty... three hundred and eighty pounds, four hundred... and twenty... four fifty... four fifty on my right now, any more at four fifty? Four eighty... four eighty on the left, all done at four eighty and I shall sell then at four hundred and eighty pounds. four eighty. thank you. Lot eighty six... is a Junior Monarch... there it is now, eighty six, two hundred offered, twenty... two forty, two sixty, any more at two sixty? Two eighty, three hundred... three twenty, three fifty... three eighty, four hundred... four twenty, four fifty... four eighty... four eighty standing, any more? Five hundred... five fifty... six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred... eight hundred pounds seated now, eight fifty... nine hundred... nine fifty, one thousand, one hundred... one thousand one hundred pounds now, any more at one thousand one hundred and I shall sell then at one thousand one hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot eighty seven... Edison Gem... there it is... a hundred and fifty is offered and sixty, one seventy, any more at one seventy? One eighty, one ninety, any more at one ninety? One, two hundred, two twenty... against you now at two twenty, any more at two twenty? The bid's with me, two forty... two forty now, any more at two forty? All done? It's down there at two forty... at... two fifty... still against you at two fifty, any more? Two fifty then, all done at two hundred and fifty pounds.. Lot eighty eight... is another similar Gem, there it is, thank you, Lot eighty eight... and I've a hundred and fifty offered for this... one sixty... seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, and twenty, two forty... two forty, any more at two forty? All done then... two fifty... on the left at two fifty now, sixty... two sixty, two seventy... eighty... two eighty then, all done at two hundred and eighty pounds. Er eight ninety, thank you. Lot eighty nine is a new Cecil... Zonophone, there it is, thank you, a hundred is offered for this one, a hundred pounds... one hundred pounds anywhere, one hundred... one hundred bid on the aisle, thank you, any more? At a hundred pounds, all done at a hundred? One ten... twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one sixty, seventy, eighty... one eighty on the aisle, any more at one eighty, it's your bid, sir... one eighty, any more? One ninety standing... two hundred, two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty... three hundred... three hundred pounds standing, any more at three hundred? I shall sell then at three hundred pounds. Nine two four. Lot ninety... is a Dulcephone... there it is, Lot ninety, thank you and I have er four hundred offered for this, four hundred pounds and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred, and fifty, six hundred and fifty... six fifty standing, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty... nine hundred and fifty, one thousand, one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred... one thousand four hundred at the front, any more? One thousand five hundred... six hundred... bidding? One thousand six hundred pounds here, seven hundred... one thousand eight hundred... nine hundred, two thousand... two thousand pounds, any more at two thousand pounds? All done, it's against you two thousand, are you all done... at two thousand pounds standing on my right then and I'll sell at two thousand pounds. And it's nine... seven six, thank you. Lot ninety one... Intermediate Monarch mahogany, there it is...... and I have six hundred offered for this and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] eight hundred at the back, eight fifty... against you now at eighty fifty, any more? Nine hundred, nine fifty... one thousand one hundred... one thousand one hundred with me, any more? Two hundred, three hundred, four hundred... one thousand four hundred pounds, any more? At one thousand four hundred on my right and I'll sell at one thousand four hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot ninety two... is reproducer there it is, Lot ninety two... er, eighty pounds for this, eighty pounds... eighty pounds anywhere? Eighty bid, thank you... five... ninety, five, one hundred... one hundred on the aisle, any more? And ten, one twenty, thirty, forty, one fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty... one eighty on the aisle, any more at one eighty? I shall sell then at... one ninety... against you on the aisle now, two hundred new bidder... two hundred pounds on the left at two hundred, are you all done? I'll sell at two hundred pounds. Nine four O, thank you. Lot ninety three, a Kastenpuck... there it is... and I have a hundred offered for this, and ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred, and twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty... three hundred and twenty... three twenty, three fifty... three fifty, any more? At three fifty... three eighty... three eighty, any more? Three eighty... four hundred... four hundred pounds in the front now, any more at four hundred pounds? All done then at four hundred pounds... any more? one five. Lot ninety four... is the Peter Pan now showing, thank you, and I have sixty offered, five, seventy, five... eighty, five, eighty five pounds now, any more? At eighty five... ninety... ninety five... one hundred, one ten... one twenty, one twenty on the aisle, any more at one twenty? All done then? One thirty... one forty... one forty on the aisle, one forty then and I shall sell at... one fifty also on aisle, one sixty... one sixty now near me on the aisle at one sixty, are you all done at a hundred and sixty pounds? six seven. Lot ninety five... the three twenty Pathe discs, Lot ninety five... erm fifty for them? Fifty pounds for these, fifty anywhere? At fifty pounds, anywhere at fifty? Fifty pounds... fifty is bid, thank you, standing, any more at fifty? Fifty five... sixty, five... seventy five... eighty five... ninety... ninety pounds standing, any more? At ninety pounds, ninety five... one hundred... one ten... twenty... thirty... one forty... one fifty... bidding? One sixty... one seventy... one eighty... standing at a hundred and eighty pounds, are you all done? One eighty and I'll sell at one hundred and eighty pounds. four six, thank you. Lot ninety six... is the Ampico rolls, Lot ninety six, fifty for them? Fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty pounds, fifty... fifty pounds anywhere... fifty... fifty pounds... fifty pounds. Ninety seven... there it is now showing, Lot ninety seven, singing bird in cage... I have three hundred offered for this, three hundred pounds and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty, fifty... four eighty... five hundred... fifty... six hundred and fifty, seven hundred... fifty... eight hundred... eight hundred pounds seated now, any more at eight hundred and fifty... nine hundred... and fifty... nine fifty nine fifty, one thousand new bidder... thousand one hundred... one thousand one hundred pounds, any more? At one thousand one hundred pounds on the right at the back, any more at one thousand one hundred pounds. Eight seven five, thank you. Lot ninety eight... cabinet roller organ, there it is, Lot ninety eight... two hundred offered, two hundred pounds, any more? Two twenty, forty, sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred... five hundred now, any more? Five fifty, six hundred and fifty... seven hundred... and fifty... eight hundred... eight hundred pounds near the back seated at eight hundred, any more? Eight fifty... nine hundred... nine fifty... nine fifty on the right, any more at nine fifty? All done at nine hundred and fifty pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot ninety nine... Griesbaum figure, there it is, thank you and I have two hundred offered and twenty, fifty, two eighty, three hundred... three hundred pounds, any more? Twenty, three fifty, three eighty... four hundred... and twenty, four fifty... four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred... six hundred pounds against you now, it's with me at six hundred pounds, are you all done? At six fifty new bidder... at six fifty now, any more at six hundred and fifty pounds. The number... is eight seven three, thank you. Lot one hundred... is the Weber upright Duo-Art piano, Lot one hundred, two hundred pounds offered, two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred? Two hundred pounds, any more? Two hundred... two twenty, two forty... two sixty, two eighty... bidding? Three hundred, three twenty... can't see you... three fifty, three eighty... four hundred and twenty... four [LAUGHTER] fifty []... four fifty down there, any more? At four fifty, all done? Four eighty... five hundred... and fifty... six hundred... and fifty... seven hundred... seven hundred pounds on my right then, any more bids down there at seven hundred and I'll sell at seven hundred pounds. And the number here is... nine seven six, thank you....... [speaker002:] [noise background] [speaker001:] Lot one hundred and one... thank you, is the Rogers Ampico piano, Lot a hundred and one, I've five hundred offered, five hundred pounds, any more at five hundred? Fifty... five hundred and fifty now, any more? At five hundred and fifty pounds, any more at five fifty? Five hundred and fifty pounds, any more at five fifty? All done at five fifty only? Six hundred and fifty... six fifty... any more? Six fifty only then... bidding? All done then at six hundred and fifty pounds, any more at six hundred and fifty. Lot one hundred and two... there it is now, Lot one hundred and two and I have six hundred offered for this, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, any more at seven fifty? Seven hundred and fifty pounds, any more at seven fifty? At seven hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at seven hundred and fifty? At seven sixty, seven eighty... seven eighty now, all done at seven hundred and eighty pounds. Lot a hundred and three... Ariston now showing, thank you, Lot a hundred and three, a hundred for it, one hundred pounds... is bid... and ten, one twenty, thirty... forty, one fifty, sixty... seventy... one eighty... ninety... two hundred... two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred? Two twenty... two forty... two sixty... two eighty... two hundred and eighty... three hundred... three twenty... three fifty... three eighty... four hundred... and twenty... four hundred and twenty pounds down there, any more then at four hundred and twenty pounds? Eight five three, thank you. Now Lot one hundred and four... there it is now showing, thank you, Lot a hundred and four, Simplex... fifty for it, fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty pounds anywhere at fifty? At fifty pounds, twenty, twenty pounds... twenty pounds... twenty pounds, no one want it for twenty pounds... is bid, thank you, on my right, any advance on twenty? Twenty pounds only and I shall sell if there's no further bid, are you all done? Twenty two now... twenty five... twenty eight... thirty... thirty five... forty... forty five... bidding? Fifty... fifty five... sixty... sixty five... sixty five, seventy... seventy five, eighty... eighty pounds standing... any more, it's against you seated there at eighty pounds. Three two four, thank you. Lot a hundred and five... is the Celestina now showing, Lot a hundred and five... and I have a hundred and fifty offered for this, and sixty, one seventy, one eighty... one ninety... any more at a hundred and ninety pounds? Two hundred and twenty... two twenty with me still, any more? Two twenty, forty, sixty... two eighty, three hundred and twenty, fifty... three eighty, four hundred and twenty... on the right at four twenty there, any more? At four twenty then and I shall sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. That is number... nine seven six again, thank you. Lot one hundred and six... table barrel organ, there it is, Lot one hundred and six... and I have two hundred offered and twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty... three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty, four fifty... there at four fifty now, any more? At four hundred and fifty pounds, all done then at four fifty and I'll sell at four hundred and fifty pounds. nine three. One hundred and seven... is a sixty five note er Pianola... twenty for this one, twenty pounds anywhere? At twenty pounds... twenty... at twenty pounds... no one want it for twenty? At twenty pounds... twenty pounds... all done at twenty pounds... is bid, thank you, any more at twenty? I'll sell at twenty pounds only, are you all done at twenty pounds? That's number nine two seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and eight... a portable reed organ... there it is... twenty for this... twenty anywhere? Twenty pounds... twenty pounds anywhere? No one want it for twenty pounds... is bid, thank you, twenty two pounds... twenty five... twenty five, any more at twenty five? twenty five? All done then at twenty five and I'll sell at twenty five pounds. one hundred and nine... the English chamber barrel organ now showing, thank you... and I have eight hundred pounds offered for this... fifty, nine hundred and fifty... nine hundred and fifty pounds... one thousand one hundred... one thousand two hundred... on my right now at one thousand two hundred pounds, any more? One thousand two, three hundred, four hundred... one thousand five hundred... six hundred... bidding? Seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand... two thousand two hundred... two thousand four hundred... two thousand six hundred... two thousand six hundred, two thousand eight hundred... three thousand... three thousand... all done at three thousand pounds and I'll sell at three thousand pounds. Number again is... nine seven six, thank you. Lot one hundred and ten... barrel organ... showing at the back screen now, Lot one hundred and ten and I have three hundred pounds offered, twenty, three fifty, three eighty... three hundred and eighty pounds, any more? Four hundred, four twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred... eight hundred pounds on my right now, any more? At eight hundred pounds on my right and I shall sell at eight hundred pounds. That is eight six nine, thank you. Lot a hundred and eleven... eighty eight note player piano, there it is, thank you... twenty for it, twenty pounds... twenty twenty... twenty pounds... twenty pounds, no one want it at twenty pounds... twenty pounds... is bid, thank you, twenty two... twenty two now, any more? Twenty five... twenty five pounds, any more at twenty five and I shall sell at twenty five pounds if there's no further bid... any more at twenty five pounds? Number nine two seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and twelve...... erm... twenty pounds for these? Twenty? Twenty pounds anywhere? Twenty pounds... no one want them at twenty... twenty pounds... twenty pounds, all done then at twenty pounds only? Twenty pounds... twenty pounds. Lot one hundred and thirteen... the singing bird box, [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Lot a hundred and thirteen... there it is now... the Rochat and I have two thousand for it to start at two thousand, two hundred... two thousand four hundred... two thousand six hundred... thousand eight hundred, three thousand... three thousand pounds, any more? At three thousand, two hundred, five hundred... three thousand eight hundred, four thousand... four thousand two hundred... four thousand two hundred pounds down there, four thousand five hundred, four thousand eight hundred... five thousand... five thousand pounds in the... fourth row, five thousand pounds, any more? five thousand five hundred... six thousand... six thousand pounds, any more? Six thousand five hundred... seven thousand... seven thousand pounds, any more? At seven thousand pounds... all done at seven thousand, the bid is here and I'll sell at seven thousand pounds. Eight seven three, thank you. Lot one hundred and fourteen... now showing... another one by Bruguier, Lot one hundred and fourteen... and I have four thousand pounds offered to start with, four thousand two hundred, five hundred... four thousand eight hundred, five thousand... at five thousand pounds, any more at five thousand? At five thousand it's with me at five thousand five hundred... fifth row at five thousand five hundred pounds, any more at five thousand five hundred pounds down there and I shall sell at five thousand five hundred pounds. seven three, thank you. And one hundred and fifteen... is a Rochat again now showing and I have two thousand offered, two thousand two hundred, five hundred... two thousand eight hundred... three thousand... at three thousand pounds, any more? Two hundred, three thousand five hundred, three thousand eight hundred... four thousand... two hundred... four thousand five hundred... four thousand eight hundred... five thousand... five thousand pounds, any more at five thousand pounds and I'll sell at five thousand, all done at five thousand pounds. Number... is three one seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and sixteen... thank you, another Bruguier now showing... and again I have two thousand offered to start, two pounds, any more at two thousand? Two thousand two hundred... two thousand four hundred, two thousand six hundred, two thousand eight hundred, three thousand... three thousand pounds down there, three thousand two hundred... three thousand five hundred... three thousand eight hundred... three thousand eight hundred, any more? At three thousand eight hundred pounds then, on my right... bidding? Three thousand eight hundred pounds, all done at three thousand eight hundred pounds. Lot one hundred and seventeen... another Bruguier now showing, Lot one hundred and seventeen for which I've three thousand offered... two hundred, five hundred... three thousand five hundred... three thousand eight hundred, four thousand... at four thousand pounds now, any more at four thousand? Four thousand pounds, all done at four thousand two hundred, four thousand five hundred... at four thousand five hundred pounds, the bid's with me, are you all done at four thousand five hundred and I shall sell then at four thousand five hundred pounds. three seven. Lot one hundred and eighteen... singing bird box now showing, Lot one hundred and eighteen for which I have five hundred pounds offered and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred... at nine hundred on the right there, any more? Nine hundred pounds, all done at nine hundred pounds and I'll sell at nine hundred pounds. thank you. Lot a hundred and nineteen... singing bird box now showing, Lot a hundred and nineteen... for which I have six hundred offered and fifty, seven hundred, any more at seven hundred pounds? Seven hundred... all done then, seven fifty, eight hundred... eight hundred pounds now, any more? hundred pounds... eight fifty I hear down there, thank you, any more at eight fifty? Eight fifty on the right and I'll sell at eight hundred and fifty pounds. Three six O... thank you very much. Lot one hundred and twenty... mother of pearl case now... three hundred for this one, three hundred pounds, any more? three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty... four hundred and twenty, four fifty... four eighty... five hundred... fifty... six hundred... six fifty... seven hundred... seven hundred pounds near the back, any more at seven hundred, and fifty new bidder... against you now... seven hundred and fifty over there on the right at the back and I'll sell at seven fifty... eight hundred... eight hundred on the left at the back, now any more at eight hundred pounds? Against you on the right... eight hundred pounds and I shall sell then... are you all done at eight hundred pounds? Three two six, thank you. Lot a hundred and twenty one... fine musical necessaire now showing, thank you, Lot one two one... for which I have eight hundred pounds offered, fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand, one hundred... one thousand one hundred pounds... two hundred... three hundred... one thousand three hundred and fifty, any more? One thousand four hundred... on my left at one thousand four hundred pounds... any advance on one thousand, five hundred... one thousand six hundred... seven hundred... eight hundred... nine hundred... one thousand nine hundred pounds, any more at one thousand nine hundred? The bid is there at one thousand nine hundred pounds... one thousand nine hundred pounds. Number thank you. Lot a hundred and twenty two... overture snuff box... Der Freischutz this one, Lot one two two... for which I have one thousand pounds offered, one hundred, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... one thousand five hundred... one thousand six hundred, any more at one thousand six hundred pounds? One thousand seven hundred, eight hundred... nine hundred, two thousand... two thousand two hundred, two thousand four hundred... two thousand six hundred, two thousand eight hundred... three thousand... two hundred... three thousand five hundred, three thousand eight hundred... four thousand... four thousand two hundred... four thousand five hundred... at four thousand five hundred pounds in the fifth row now, any more at four thousand five hundred pounds, all done? Four thousand five hundred pounds. Er... eight seven, thank you. Lot one two three... is... black composition snuff box, there it is now, Lot one two three... and I have three hundred pounds offered for this and twenty... three fifty... three eighty, four hundred... four hundred pounds and twenty, four fifty... four fifty with me now, any more at four hundred and fifty pounds, any more at four fifty? Four hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at four fifty, four eighty... at four eighty now... all done at four hundred and eighty pounds. seven. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Lot one hundred and twenty four... thank you, another one showing here, three hundred is offered and twenty, three fifty, any more at three hundred and fifty? Three hundred and fifty pounds, three eighty, four hundred... at four hundred pounds... are you all done at four hundred? It's with me and I'll sell at four hundred and twenty, four fifty... against you at four fifty, any more? All done then, it's with me still at four hundred and fifty pounds against you all in the room. four seven. Lot a hundred and twenty five... thank you... another snuff box now showing, Lot one two five for which I have two offered and twenty... two fifty, two eighty, three hundred... three hundred pounds, any more? At three hundred pounds, are you all done at three hundred pounds? Any more? Twenty, three fifty... against you at three fifty now, any more? Three eighty, four hundred... four hundred pounds, any more? It's with me then at four hundred pounds and I shall sell at four hundred pounds. Four hundred pounds, all done. four seven. Lot a hundred and twenty six... snuff box... there it is now showing in a painted tin case... and I have five hundred offered for this... five hundred and fifty, six hundred... six fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred... eight hundred pounds, any more? Eight hundred pounds... are you all done then at eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred... at nine hundred pounds with me still, are you all done at nine hundred pounds? One four seven. Lot one two seven... Laurencekirk box, there it is, thank you... and I have four hundred offered and twenty... four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty... at five fifty now, any more at five fifty? All done then? Six hundred, six fifty... against you at six hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Bid's with me, seven hundred, seven fifty... eight hundred, eight fifty... nine hundred... at nine hundred pounds in the fifth row, any more at nine hundred pounds? Nine fifty... standing at nine fifty then, are you all done at nine hundred and fifty pounds? Three two six, thank you. Lot a hundred and twenty eight... is the snuff box now showing, thank you, Lot one two eight... and I have six hundred pounds offered, fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred... eight hundred pounds, any more? Eight fifty, nine hundred... nine fifty, one thousand... one hundred, two hundred... one thousand three hundred... four hundred... five hundred... one thousand six hundred, seven hundred... eight hundred... one thousand eight hundred pounds, any more? One thousand nine hundred new bidder... one thousand nine hundred pounds near the back in the aisle... two thousand... two thousand two hundred... two thousand two hundred pounds... near the back, two thousand four hundred... two thousand four hundred pounds on my left and I shall sell at two thousand four hundred pounds. thank you. Er Lot one hundred and twenty nine... three airs snuff box now showing, Lot one two nine for which I have five hundred offered, five fifty, six hundred... six hundred pounds, any more? At six hundred and fifty, seven hundred... seven hundred against you now, any more? Seven hundred pounds... any more at seven hundred? All done then at seven hundred pounds, seven fifty, eight hundred... eight fifty, nine hundred, nine fifty, one thousand... one hundred... at one thousand one hundred in the fifth row, any more at one thousand one hundred and I shall sell at one thousand... one hundred pounds. And the number is... three one seven, thank you very much. Lot a hundred and thirty... tortoiseshell box now showing, Lot a hundred and thirty and I have four hundred offered for this one, four twenty, fifty, four eighty, five hundred, and fifty... six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty... and fifty... nine hundred... at nine hundred pounds fifty, one thousand... one hundred... two hundred... one thousand three hundred... four hundred, five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand, two hundred... two thousand four hundred... two thousand six hundred... two thousand eight hundred, three thousand... three thousand pounds... it's your bid at three thousand... any advance on three thousand pounds, are you all done then at three thousand pounds? Three one seven, thank you. One three one... thank you, now showing, Lot one three one and I have five hundred offered for this... fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred... seven hundred now, any more? Seven fifty, eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred... and fifty, one thousand... one hundred, two hundred... one thousand two hundred pounds, any more? One thousand two hundred pounds, the bid's with me, are you all done at one thousand two hundred pounds... a thousand three hundred... on my right now at one thousand three hundred pounds, any more? At one thousand three hundred and I shall sell at one thousand three hundred pounds. Six six seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and thirty two... there it is now, a snuff box with micro-mosaic lid, Lot one three two and I have eight hundred pounds offered for this one and fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand, one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, one thousand five hundred, six hundred... one thousand six hundred pounds at the back in the aisle, any more? One thousand seven hundred... one thousand eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand, two thousand two hundred, two thousand four hundred, two thousand six hundred... eight hundred... three thousand... three thousand two hundred... three thousand two hundred pounds, any more now? At three thousand two hundred pounds, three thousand five hundred... three thousand five now in the fifth row... three thousand eight hundred... three thousand eight hundred pounds, any more? All done then at three thousand eight hundred? sell at three thousand eight hundred pounds. Nine five seven, thank you very much. Lot a hundred and thirty three... now showing, thank you, Lot one three three and I have five hundred offered and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred... seven hundred pounds, any more? Seven fifty, eight hundred... and fifty... there at the back in the aisle at eight hundred and fifty pounds... nine hundred and fifty... one thousand, one hundred... two hundred, three hundred... four hundred... a thousand five hundred... six hundred... one thousand seven hundred, one thousand eight hundred, nine hundred... two thousand... two thousand two hundred, two thousand four hundred... six hundred... eight hundred... two thousand eight hundred pounds in the fifth row... now any more? Two thousand eight hundred and I shall sell two thousand eight hundred pounds. Er... three one seven? One hundred and thirty four...... er... Bordier box, there it is, Lot one three four... it's illustrated in the catalogue... a small box with a, Lot one three four... and I have three hundred pounds offered for it, three hundred pounds and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, and twenty, four fifty, four eighty... five hundred and fifty, six hundred... and fifty, seven hundred and fifty... eight hundred and fifty... near the back in the aisle at eight hundred and fifty now... nine hundred... nine fifty... nine hundred and fifty, any more? At nine fifty then, all done then at one... one thousand... one thousand one hundred... still near the back in the aisle at one thousand one hundred and I shall sell at one thousand one hundred... one thousand two hundred just in time... any more? One thousand three hundred... all done at one thousand three hundred pounds. Nine five seven, thank you. One hundred and thirty five... a small box by Capt, snuff box by Capt... now showing... er... I have er four hundred pounds offered, four fifty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred... and fifty, eight hundred... and fifty... on my left at eight fifty now, any more? At eight hundred and fifty pounds on my left seated and I'll sell at eight hundred and fifty pounds, all done? five. Lot one hundred and thirty six... tortoiseshell case... Lot one three six... Martinet and Benoit... could well be, yes... it's in a plain tortoiseshell case... er... I have four hundred pounds offered for this, four twenty, fifty, four eighty, five hundred... five hundred pounds, any more? Five fifty, thank you, six hundred... six hundred pounds with me, on the screen... six hundred pounds with me, any more at six hundred pounds? Six fifty, thank you... down there at six fifty now, any more at six hundred and fifty seven hundred... seven fifty... seven hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at seven fifty then? Any more at seven hundred and fifty pounds. And the number again is... eight seven thank you very much. One hundred and thirty seven... snuff box of casket form... that's the right one, yes... and I have two hundred offered for this... two twenty, two forty... two sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred... at four hundred pounds, any more? Four hundred pounds, any more, it's with me at four hundred now, are you all done? Four twenty, four fifty... four fifty, any more? Four fifty, four eighty, five hundred... five hundred, it's still with me at five, five fifty... five fifty, are you all done at five fifty and I'll sell then at five hundred and fifty pounds. Three one seven, thank you very much. Lot a hundred and thirty eight... silver gilt box with micro-mosaic, there it is now showing, thank you... and I have one thousand five hundred pounds offered to start me, six hundred, seven hundred, one thousand eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand... two thousand pounds, two thousand one hundred... two thousand two hundred, three hundred... thousand four hundred, five hundred, two thousand six hundred... on my left at two thousand six hundred pounds, any more? At two thousand six hundred pounds in the aisle at seven hundred, eight hundred... two thousand nine hundred... three thousand... three thousand pounds, any more at three thousand? Two hundred, three thousand four hundred... three thousand four hundred now any more? Three thousand four hundred and I'll sell at three thousand four hundred pounds on my left. Two five two, thank you. Lot a hundred and thirty nine... snuff box in tortoiseshell case now showing... initials W B D on the top and I have four hundred offered for it, four fifty, fifty, four hundred and fifty now, any more? At four eighty, five hundred... five hundred pounds with me, any more? Five fifty... on my right now at five fifty, any more at five hundred and fifty pounds? Are you all done at five hundred and fifty pounds. thank you. Lot one hundred and forty... is an overture snuff box, there it is, thank you... it's a Mozart one and I have one thousand five hundred offered for this, six hundred, seven hundred... one thousand eight hundred... one thousand nine hundred... any more at one thousand nine hundred pounds? One thousand nine hundred pounds, all done then at one thousand nine hundred pounds? Two thousand at two thousand pounds now, any more? Two thousand, all finished and I'll sell then at two thousand pounds, are you all done at two thousand pounds? And Lot one hundred and forty one... [tape change]

[speaker001:] fifty to three hundred and fifty pounds... and Lot one four three... three hundred and fifty to four hundred and fifty pounds. I'll remi remind you of those again as I reach the various Lots. And we commence this morning with Lot number one... Lot number one is showing to my right here, the ivory carving... at fifty pounds... at fifty pounds... at fifty pounds you want it for fifty pounds, thank you sir, fifty I've got now, fifty pounds is offered at fifty five... at fifty five, sixty, sixty five... seventy, seventy five... eighty five... ninety... ninety pounds in the back row at ninety and selling for ninety pounds, any further bids at ninety pounds... at ninety pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours for ninety pounds. Number six O six. Lot number two... Lot two is a Japanese ivory carving we've got that showing for you for seventy five pounds... at seventy five pounds, eighty, eighty five, ninety offered... I'm offered ninety pounds and I'm selling it for ninety, ninety five, a hundred pounds... and ten... one twenty... thirty... a hundred and thirty for you sir, coming in at one thirty in the back row, one thirty and selling for a hundred and thirty pounds. The same buyer thank you, one thirty. Six O six. Er Lot number three... Lot number three... the Canton trays... there we are there we've got a sample showing for you... Lot number three, there are seven of them in the Lot... all seven of them for a hundred and fifty pounds... at one hundred and fifty, sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty, forty, sixty... two eighty... I'm offered two hundred and eighty pounds you're on three hundred for you sir... three hun three twenty... three fifty, three eighty... go to four hundred... four twenty... four fifty... four eighty... five hundred... and fifty... and you bet against you both now... five hundred and fifty is offered against you both now, five fifty five hundred and fifty pounds. Thank you that's a lady's offer at five fifty and that's six eleven, thank you. Lot number four... Lot number four the rectangular box and we have that showing... Lot number four... at eighty pounds for this and eighty pounds and eighty five, ninety pounds... at ninety pounds... any more at ninety pounds only at ninety all... ninety pounds... ninety pounds. Thank you Lot number five. Lot number five... the circular mirror... this the mirror... fifty pounds for this one at fifty pounds, at fifty five, at fifty five pounds... at fifty five pounds all done? At fifty five only, at sixty, thank you, at sixty five... sixty five again at sixty five if you're all finished at sixty five pounds. Thank you. Lot number six. Lot six a Canton card case... this the card case showing... I've got several offers I've got to start at three hundred pounds... got that in several places three hund three twenty, three fifty, eighty, four hundred... I bid four hundred, four twenty, four fifty... at four hundred and fifty pounds, anybody else? Four fifty and selling for four hundred and fifty pounds, all done at four fifty. Number ninety four, thank you, four fifty. [speaker002:] Excuse me please, is it possible for you to speak a bit louder. It's [speaker001:] I'll, I'll try for you yes. Thank you. Lot number seven... Lot seven the rosewater sprinkler... Lot number seven... there it is... a hundred pounds for this one, one hundred pounds and ten, a hundred and ten pounds. Any more at one hundred and ten only, one twenty, one thirty... one forty, fifty... one sixty, seventy... one seventy... one eighty, the lady's bid sir... do you want to come in? One eighty coming in? One hundred and eighty pounds with the lady at one eighty and selling for one eighty in the back row. One ninety standing... two hundred pounds, two twenty... two forty... two sixty... two sixty against the lady at six go on at two hundred and sixty pounds, you all done at two sixty. Six one five, thank you, two sixty. Lot number eight... Lot eight... there we are there it is showing to you, Lot number eight and I'm offered a hundred pounds to start me on it, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds... at a hundred and twenty pounds all s all done at one twenty, one thirty, forty... a hundred and forty pounds... selling for one hundred and forty pounds, any more at one hundred and forty pounds. Number one eight two, one forty. Lot number nine... Lot nine... this the carving, Lot number nine... eighty pounds for this one, eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety pounds, any more at ninety pounds, ninety five, one hundred pounds, at one hundred pounds, anybody else at one hundred and ten standing, one twenty... going on, sir? One twenty against you standing... all done at one hundred and twenty pounds, any more at one twenty? One hundred and twenty pounds. Lot ten... ten, ten is the Burmese Buddha... this the Buddha showing for a hundred pounds... at one hundred pounds, and ten... at a hundred and ten pounds... all done? At one hundred and ten pounds, any more at one hundred and ten? All done? Thank you, Lot number eleven. Lot eleven... the Tibetan model... there's the model showing... eighty pounds for this, at eighty, eighty five offered, at ninety, ninety five, ninety five bid, one hundred and ten, twenty, thirty... a hundred and thirty is offered... at one hundred and thirty, one forty... a new bidder now, one forty to my right and selling for one hundred and forty... thank you, one forty for... join on. Lot number twelve... Lot twelve... an alabaster model... there's the Indian model showing... at eighty pounds for this, at eighty, eighty five, ninety five, one hundred, at one hundred pounds... at one hundred pounds, any more at one hundred, one hundred, you all done? At one hundred pounds, any more? And ten, at one hundred and ten pounds... one hundred and ten pounds. Lot number thirteen... thirteen is the bronze model... there's the bronze model showing... for eighty pounds... at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds... any more at eighty pounds, all done? At eighty pounds, the opening offer, at eighty pounds only. Thank you. Lot number fourteen. Lot fourteen, the bronze bell... the bronze bell is showing... fifty for this, at fifty, fifty five pounds... at fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five... going on, sir? Eighty pounds, eighty five... ninety... ninety five... one hundred... and ten... twenty... one twenty to my left standing, at one twenty all done, at one hundred and twenty pounds standing, at one twenty. Thank you sir, it's yours for one twenty and that's for number... eight four eight, thank you. Lot number fifteen... Lot fifteen, the jadeite plaque... there's the jadeite plaque showing... a hundred pounds for it, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, thirty, one thirty offered, forty, fifty, at one hundred and fifty pounds... at a hundred and fifty only, at one hundred and fifty pounds, I shall sell, one sixty, one seventy, going on sir? One eighty, one ninety... two hundred and twenty... two forty, sixty... two eighty, three hundred... three hundred pounds, against... anybody else? At three hundred pounds and selling for three hundred pounds. Three hundred pounds, number sixty five, that's a commission bid. Lot sixteen... Lot sixteen... an okimono... is showing, for a hundred pounds, at one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds... at a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty... one fifty, sixty... one seventy, eighty... ninety, two hundred... and twenty... two hundred and twenty pounds to my right, and selling for two twenty, all finished? At two hundred and twenty pounds... thank you, two twenty for number... two O two. Lot number seventeen... Lot seventeen, the glass snuff-bottle... snuff-bottle there showing... at a hundred pounds for this, at one hundred pounds... at a hundred pounds, any more at one hundred only, at one hundred all done? At one hundred pounds... any more at a hundred pounds? Thank you, Lot number eighteen. Lot number eighteen is the next to offer... that's the bronze model... the bronze model, I have fifty pounds offered to start me at fifty, fifty five, sixty pounds, at sixty five... sixty five pounds... any more? Sixty five all done, at sixty five, if you're all finished at sixty five pounds. Sixty five pounds. Lot nineteen... nineteen... cylindrical vase... there's the carved vase showing... thirty for this one, at thirty pounds, at thirty five, at thirty five pounds... at thirty five pounds, any more at thirty five only, at forty in front, forty five... fifty in front, five... fifty five against you, near me... at fifty five pounds, you all finished now, at fifty five, any more at fifty five. Fifty five pounds. Lot number twenty... twenty is a quantity of stands... there we are, we've got a sample showing for you... just a sample showing... fifty for the lot... the whole lot there for fifty pounds... at fifty pounds want them for fifty pounds... thank you sir, fifty pounds I've got, at fifty five... going on... fifty five, sixty pounds, sixty five... coming in sir? Seventy pounds, seventy five... eighty, eighty five... ninety five... one hundred and ten... one twenty... I'm offered a hundred and twenty pounds, I'll sell, one thirty... one forty... fifty... one sixty... one seventy... one eighty... one ninety... carrying on, sir? One ni two hundred pounds... two hundred pounds against you now, sir... two hundred to my right at the back, at two hundred pounds... thank you, six one O at two hundred pounds. Lot number twenty one... Lot twenty one... the Japanese cloisonne... there we are, we've got one of them showing... one of them showing for you, for a hundred pounds, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds... at a hundred and twenty pounds, you all finished now, at one twen one thirty, forty... one fifty, sixty... one sixty against you, coming in? One sixty, any more? One six yes. One hundred and sixty pounds, all done, at one hundred and sixty pounds, any more at one sixty. One sixty. Lot number twenty two... twenty two, the gilt-bronze and enamel model... showing... at a hundred and fifty pounds... one fifty I'm offered, thank you, one hundred and fifty pounds I've got, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, ninety... two hundred and twenty, forty, sixty... two eighty, three hundred... three hundred pounds against you at three hundred, anybody else? Three twenty in the back row now... three twenty in the back row and selling for three hundred and twenty pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours for three twenty and that's for number six O nine. Lot number twenty three... Lot twenty three is the er lacquered circular cover... there we are, that's showing... fifty for this one, at fifty pounds, at fifty pounds, at fifty five... fifty five pounds... any more? At fif sixty, thank you, standing, for sixty, sixty five... seventy pounds, seventy five... eighty, eighty five... ninety standing... I'm offered ninety pounds at the back standing, at ninety and selling for ninety pounds, you all finished, at ninety pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours for ninety pounds and that's for number... two one three... thank you. Lot number twenty four... Lot number twenty four... there's Lot number twenty four showing... at a hundred pounds, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty... one thirty to my right... a hundred and thirty offered.... at one hundred and thirty pounds, one forty in the back row, one fifty... one sixty... one seventy... one eighty... one ninety... two hundred... two hundred pounds in the back row, at two hundred pounds, two twenty to my right... the lady's bid, sir... two forty... two forty, going on? Against the lady at two forty, it's in back row at two forty, it's yours, sir... at two forty. All done at two hundred and forty pounds. Thank you, two hundred and forty pounds, that's for number six O six. Lot number... twenty five, Lot number twenty five... there we are... fragmentary carving... there's the carving showing... sixty pounds for it... sixty five, seventy... seventy five, eighty... eighty five, ninety... ninety five... a hundred... and ten... twenty... thirty... forty... one fifty, sixty... one sixty against you standing... and against you... no... one sixty in the centre... at one hundred and sixty pounds I've got, at one hundred and sixty... thank you, one hundred and sixty pounds for that six one three. Lot number twenty six... Lot number twenty six, the grey jade pendant... there's the grey jade pendant showing... Lot twenty six for thirty pounds... at thirty, thirty five, forty, forty five, fifty for you sir, thank you, five... sixty, sixty five... seventy offered... I'm bid seventy in the centre now... and selling for seventy, seventy five to my right... eighty pounds... eighty five... eighty five, the lady's offer, sir... at eighty five pounds, any more at eight five pounds. The lady to my right, eighty five pounds, that's eight forty, thank you. Lot number twenty seven... twenty seven the bronze model... there's the bronze model... fifty for this, at fifty, thank you, fifty is offered, at five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty five... ninety bid... I'm offered ninety pounds at the back, anybody else at ninety, ninety five... one hundred... going on sir? And ten... one twenty... one twenty bid... at one hundred and twenty pou one thirty... against you both... going on? One forty... one fifty... one sixty... seventy... eighty, ninety... two hundred... and twenty... two forty... two sixty... any more sir? Two eighty... three hundred... still against you... three hundred pounds here on my right at three hundred, and selling for three hundre yes... three twenty... three twenty against you... three twenty at the back and selling for three hundred and twenty pounds. Thank you, three twenty and that was for number... eight four one, thank you. Lot number twenty eight... Lot twenty eight... er... the white jade bottle... there's the bottle showing... a hundred pounds for it, at one hundred pounds... at a hundred pounds... and ten, twenty... one thirty... one thirty offered and selling for one hundred and thirty, one forty... one forty against you now... one forty to my left and selling for one hundred and forty pounds... second row, thank you, one forty... and the next number is number two one eight, thank you. Lot number twenty nine, Lot twenty nine... the mandarin head-dress... there's the head-dress showing... eighty pounds, at eighty pounds, at five, ninety, ninety pounds... at ninety pounds... all done? At ninety pounds, any more? At ninety only, at ninety pounds. Have you all finished? Thank you, Lot number thirty. Lot number thirty is the next to offer... and that's the beaker... there's the beaker. Twenty pounds for it... at twenty pounds... at twenty pounds thank you, twenty is offered and selling for twenty pounds only, twenty five for you sir, thank you, twenty five, thirty... thirty five... thirty five to my left and selling for thirty five pounds... yours sir, thank you, thirty five pounds for number... eight four five, thank you very much. Lot number thirty one, Lot thirty one, the netsuke... there's the netsuke showing... sixty pounds offered, at sixty, sixty five pounds, at sixty five pounds, seventy in the centre, seventy five... eighty, eighty five... ninety in the centre... I'm offered ninety and I shall take ninety if there's no further bid, ninety five in front... going on sir? Ninety five, coming in? One hundred pounds... and ten... one twenty... one twenty offered to my right, at one twenty and selling for a hundred and twenty pounds. Thank you, one twenty for... two hundred. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Lot number thirty two... Lot thirty two, the lacquer brushes... there we are, there's the lacquer brushes, I've got two offers of a hundred pounds for them... one hundred pounds in two places, at one hundred and ten, one twenty, thirty, forty... going on? One fifty, sixty... one seventy, one eighty... any more? One one ninety, thank you, at two hundred pounds... coming in sir? Two hundred against you both... at two hundred pounds, the bid's on the book at two hundred against you both, at two hundred and selling... for two hundred, two twenty, two forty... two sixty, two eighty... any more sir? At two hundred and eighty, the bid's with me at two hundred and eighty pounds against you all, at two eighty. Thank you, that's a commission bid and that's for number one eight eight. Lot number thirty three... Lot number thirty three... is the hanging basket... there's the hanging basket showing, a hundred pounds for this, at one hundred pounds and ten... twenty, thirty, forty, fifty... sixty, seventy... one eighty... I'm offered a hundred and eighty pounds, one ninety... two hundred... two twenty, two forty, two sixty... eighty... three hundred... three hundred's bid on my left and selling for three hundred pounds second row, three hundred pounds. Two one eight, thank you, three hundred pounds. Lot number thirty four... Lot number thirty four... the okimono... there's the okimono showing... eighty pounds for this one is offered, at eighty pounds I've got in two places, at eighty pounds, eighty five in the centre, at eighty five is bid and selling for eighty five it's yours sir at eighty five, ninety to my right, ninety five... going on sir? One hundred pounds and ten... one hundred and ten pounds, one twenty... a hundred and twenty to my right, at one hundred and twenty pounds, have you all finished? At one twenty. Eight thirty, thank you, one twenty. Lot number thirty five... Lot number thirty five... there we are, there it is showing, Lot number thirty five, eighty pounds for this one, at eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, one hundred is offered... I'm offered a hundred pounds and selling for one hundred, all done? At one hundred pounds, any more? At one hundred pounds... thank you, number seventy four, one hundred pounds. And Lot number thirty six... Lot thirty six showing to my right, at a hundred pounds again, at one hundred pounds... at a hundred pounds one hundred only, at one hundred, you all done? At one hundred, the opening offer at one hundred pounds. Thank you, Lot number thirty seven. Lot number thirty seven... Shibayama aide-memoire... there's the aide- memoire showing... fifty pounds for this, at fifty, fifty five for you sir, sixty pounds, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty... eighty five... eighty five offered and selling for eighty five pounds, any more? Ninety here now... ninety five, a hundred pounds... one hundred to my left and selling for one hundred... all done at one hundred pounds. That's in the aisle at one hundred pounds, thank you, and that's for number... two one two, thank you. Lot number thirty eight... Lot thirty eight... the er... Persian brass standard... there's the brass standard... seventy pounds for it, seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds, at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds... any more at eighty only, at eighty pounds, all done? At eighty pounds, any more at eighty pounds... eighty five, thank you, at ninety pounds... ninety five, a hundred... at one hundred against you at the back, at one hundred, you all done at one hundred pounds. One hundred pounds. Lot number thirty nine... thirty nine is the coal holder... there it is... seventy pounds for this, at seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds... at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds... any more at eighty only, at eighty, eighty five, ninety pounds, ninety five, a hundred pounds, and ten, twenty, one thirty offered... I'm offered one thirty on my left and selling for one hundred and thirty pou one forty standing... one fifty... one sixty... one seventy... going on sir? One seventy against you, any more at one, one eighty... one ninety... two hundred... two twenty... two hundred and twenty still against you, at two hundred and twenty pounds I'm offered... thank you, two hundred and twenty for the lady and that's for number... nine one eight, thank you. Lot number forty... Lot number forty... Persian steel fitting... there it is... seventy for this, at seventy pounds, at seventy five, eighty pounds, at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds, any more at eighty pounds, you all done? At eighty pounds only, at eighty pounds, any more at eighty? Thank you, Lot number forty one. Lot number forty one, the brass sticks... there we are, we've got one of them showing for you... just one of them showing, I've got a hundred and fifty offered for it, one fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty... one ninety, two hundred I'm bid... I'm offered two hundred pounds, anybody else at two hundred and selling... at two hundred, two twenty, two forty... going on? Two sixty, two eighty... two hundred and eighty pounds against you at the back and selling for two hundred and eighty pounds... two eighty, one one nine. Lot forty two... Lot forty two is the er large selection of auction catalogues... and we've got a sample showing, there we are... works of art for you... twenty pounds for them... at twenty pounds... anyone want them for twenty pounds... sample showing for twenty pounds, anyone want them for twenty, thank you sir, twenty pounds I've got in the centre and I shall sell at twenty if there's no further bid at twenty pounds, any more? Eight five eight, thank you, twenty pounds. Lot number forty three... Lot forty three... a snuff-bottle... there it is... and I'm offered two hundred for this one, and twenty, two forty, two sixty... two eighty for you sir, three hundred pounds, going on? Three twenty, three fifty, three eighty in the centre... three eighty is offered and selling for three hundred and eighty, all done? At three hundred and eighty pounds. Gentleman in the centre, three eighty and that's for number eight three six... Lot number forty four... Lot forty four... is the Japanese hand-warmer... there's the hand-warmer for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five pounds... at fifty five, any more at fifty five, all done? At fif sixty at the back, sixty five... going on sir? Seventy, seventy five, eighty five... ninety... ninety is offered at the back and selling for ninety if you're all finished at ninety pounds. That's back left ninety pounds, number eight five three, thank you. Lot number forty five is the scribe scribe's set, there it is... for three hundred pounds, at three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four twenty, four fifty... four eighty offered... I'm offered four eighty to my left, five hundred seated, five fifty... six hundred... six fifty... going to you sitting... six hundred and fifty, going on? At six fifty standing on my left and selling, seven hundred to my right... seven fifty... going on sir? Seven fifty, going to you, any m eight hundred... eight fifty... eight nine hundred... and fifty... round it off? No? Nine fifty to my left and selling for nine hundred and fifty pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours... eight two eight, thank you, nine fifty. Lot number forty six... Lot number forty six is the next, that's the ivory figure... Chinese figure there... a hundred pounds for this and ten, twenty, thirty, forty, one forty, fifty, one hundred and fifty pounds, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety... two hundred and twenty... coming in sir? Two fifty here in the centre now... two fifty I've got and I shall sell, two eighty... two hundred and eighty, three hundred pounds... three twenty... three fifty... three eighty... four hundred... four hundred by the post, at four hundred and selling for four hundred, if you're all finished at four hundred pounds... yours sir, thank you, four hundred and that's for number six O nine, six O nine thank you. Lot number forty seven... Lot number forty seven, the micro-mosaic... there it is... Lot number forty seven... at a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred offered, two twenty, two forty... two sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty... three going, three fifty, three eighty... any more sir? At three eighty going to you, all done? Anybody else at three hundred and eighty pounds, I'm selling for three hundred and eighty pounds... three eighty and that's number one O three. The next Lot I'm afraid is withdrawn as announced er Lot number forty nine is the next, Lot number forty nine is a soapstone carving... there's the soapstone carving...... [LAUGHTER] Lot number forty nine... for two hundred pounds [] at two hund two twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four twenty offered... at four hundred and twenty, four fifty, four eighty... going on sir? Four eighty against you, any more? Five hundred pounds and fifty, against you still... at five fifty seated... at five hundred and fifty, six hundred to my right... six fifty at the back... seven hundred pounds... going on sir? Seven fifty... eight hundred... eight fifty... nine hundred... and fifty... at a thousand pounds... eleven hundred... twelve hundred... twelve hundred against you sir, thirteen hundred... fourteen hundred... fifteen hundred... sixteen hundred... seventeen hundred... eighteen hundred... nineteen hundred... two thousand... any more sir? No? Not giving up now are you? Two thousand pounds here, going on? Two thousand? Two thousand one hundred... two thousand two hundred... two, two thousand three hundred... two thousa coming in sir? Two thousand four... two thou two thousand five... two thousand five hundred on the back row, at two thousand five hundred pounds, I'm selling for two thousand five hundred... two thousand six in time... any more sir? At two thousand six to my right, at two thousand six. Thank you, two thousand six hundred pounds... and that's for number two eleven. Lot number fifty... Lot fifty is a wood carving, a Japanese wood carving, eighty pounds for this, eighty five, ninety five, one hundred and ten... I'm offered a hundred and ten pounds, I shall sell, one twenty, one thirty, forty, fifty... one sixty bid... I'm offered one sixty to my right, at one hundred and sixty pounds, have you all finished at one sixty? Thank you, one sixty for... two hundred. Lot number fifty one, Lot fifty one, Japanese mask... [whispering] put it on John []... er Lot number fifty one... er eighty pounds for it, thank you, at eighty, eighty five, ninety pounds, at ninety pounds... any more at ninety pounds, all done? At ninety only, at ninety pounds, you all finished? Ninety five in time, one hundred pounds... at one hundr and ten, twenty... one thirty in front... I'm bid a hundred and thirty and I shall sell for one hundred and thirty pounds... thank you, the lady's offer, one thirty, front row and for that's for number six one two. Lot fifty two... Lot fifty two... there we are, Lot number fifty two is in front of the rostrum here... Lot number fifty two... sorry? What's wrong? Lot fifty. I think we're we're okay, that was fifty one... fifty one was the mask, that was okay. Er, Lot, Lot number fifty two I'm offering which is in front of the rostrum here... Lot number fifty two... for a hundred pounds... at one hundred pounds... at one hundred and ten, one twenty, one thirty... at a hundred and thirty pounds... any more at one hundred and thirty, one forty in the centre... one fifty... going on sir? One f one sixty... one seventy... any more? One eighty... one ninety... two hundred pounds, two twenty... any more? Two twenty, all done? Two twenty standing, at two hu two forty... two sixty... two hundred and sixty still against you... two eighty... three hundred... three hundred pounds standing, at three hundred pounds, you all done at three hundred pounds? Thank you, that's yours sir, for three hundred pounds... and that's for number... eight five four, thank you. Lot number fifty three... Lot fifty three again it's in front of the rostrum here, Lot number fifty three for a hundred pounds... at one hundred pounds... at one hundred pounds, any more at one hundred only, at one hundred, you all done? At one, and ten, twenty... one thirty... at a hundred and thirty pounds standing, at one thirty, all done, at one hundred and thirty and selling... for a hundred and thirty pounds... thank you sir, the same buyer, one hundred and thirty pounds for eight five four. Lot number fifty four... Lot fifty four... copper bowl... copper bowl showing... for a hundred pounds, at one hundred and ten... at a hundred and ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty... sixty, seventy... one eighty offered... I'm offered a hundred and eighty pounds, I shall sell for one eighty, one ninety... going on sir? One ninety against you now... at a hundred and ninety bid, with the lady at one ninety. Thank you, one ninety... er, nine, nine one eight is it? Nine one eight it is, thank you. Lot number fifty five, Lot number fifty five... the hanging lamp... there's the hanging lamp showing... for a hundred and fifty pounds... at a hundred and fifty, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty standing... I'm offered two hundred and twenty pounds, I'll take two twenty, two forty, two sixty... two eighty... three hundred... three, going on? Three on... any more? It's against you both, three twenty... three fifty at the back... three fifty standing... at three hundred and fifty pounds standing at three fifty and selling for three hundred and fifty. Eight five four, three fifty, thank you. Lot number fifty six... Lot fifty six, the copper bowl, the Timurid copper bowl, there it is... for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred pounds, all done? At the opening offer at three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred? Thank you, Lot number fifty seven... Lot fifty seven I'm offering, that's the five er Persian sections, there we are, they've got those showing or one of them... Lot number fifty seven, fifty pounds for this, at fifty pounds... at fifty pounds, fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy... seventy five, eighty... eighty five, ninety... ninety five, a hundred... and ten... twenty... one thirty... a hundred and thirty against you near me now... one thirty, anybody else want, forty in front... one fifty... going on sir? One fifty against you... one... yes? One sixty, thank you... one sixty in front now... second row at one sixty and selling for one sixty... thank you, a hundred and sixty pounds and that's for number... two one eight. Thank you. Lot number fifty eight... Lot number fifty eight is another five sections... there we are, we've got one of those showing... for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five, any more at sixty sixty five... going on? Seventy... seventy five... eighty... eighty five... ninety... ninety five... a hundred... and ten... twenty... thirty... forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty... one eighty to my left... one eighty, it's yours sir, at one eighty, anybody else at one hundred and eighty pounds one eighty. Thank you, a hundred and eighty pounds for number... six one five, thank you. Lot number fifty nine, Lot fifty nine is a plaster model... there's the plaster model showing... thirty pounds for this, at thirty pounds... at thirty pounds... any more at thirty pounds, all done at thirty, thirty five, forty pounds... yes? Forty five... forty five offered and selling... forty five to my left, all done at forty five, in all... at forty five. Forty five pounds and that's for... five two two. [speaker002:] Five two two sir. [speaker001:] Lot number sixty... Lot number sixty... rock-crystal beaker, there's the rock-crystal beaker, for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at sixty five, seventy five, eighty five, ninety... five... a hundred... and ten... twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred, two twenty... going on sir? Two fifty... two eighty... three hundred... and twenty... three fifty... eighty... four hundred... twenty... any more? Four twe four twenty against you... at four twen anybody else? At four twenty I'm bid at the back on the left at four twenty. Eight five four, four twenty, thank you. Lot number sixty one... Lot sixty one is the er... Bohemian base, there it is... there's the base showing, a hundred pounds and ten, twenty, thirty... a hundred and thirty pounds... any more? At one hundred and thirty pounds, one forty, fifty... one, one fif sixty, seventy... any more sir? One eighty... one ninety... two hundred... two twenty... two forty... sixty... two eighty... three hundred... and twenty... three twenty bid at the back on the left at three twenty, anybody else... at three hundred and twenty pounds? Eight five four, thank you, three twenty. Lot number sixty two, sixty two, the Roman pottery lamps... Roman pottery lamps... thirty pounds for these, at thirty pounds, at thirty five, at thirty five pounds... any more at thirty five only, at thirty five, you all done? At thirty five pounds, any more at thirty five? Forty in time... forty five... fifty, fifty five... fifty five against you near me, at fifty five, all done at fifty five. Fifty five pounds. Lot number sixty three... Lot sixty three... Lot number sixty three, the showing for a hundred and fifty pounds, at sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred is offered... I'm bid two hundred, to anybody else at two hundred? Two ten, two twenty, thirty, at two hundred and thirty pounds, forty, fifty... two fifty, going on? At two fifty, all done, at two hun two sixty... at two hundred and sixty pounds, any more at two sixty? Yours sir, thank you, two sixty and that's for number... two two two. Lot number sixty four... Lot number sixty four... there's another one showing for you, fifty for this one, at fifty pounds... thank you, fifty is offered at the back... at fifty pounds I've got... I can and will sell for fifty pounds only, any further bids at fifty five... sixty... going on sir? Sixty five... seventy... seventy pounds at the back standing at seventy and selling for seventy pounds. Eight five four, thank you, seventy pounds. Lot number sixty five... Lot sixty five is another one... there we are... another one showing... I'm offered seventy five to start me, at seventy five, eighty, eighty five, ninety five, ninety five is bid, at ninety five and selling, all done? One hundred and ten against you... one hundred and ten pounds against you at one ten is my bid at one hundred and ten, all done? Thank you, a commission bid for number sixty six, one ten. Lot number sixty six... Lot number sixty six is another one... there we are, there's another one showing for a hundred pounds... at one hundred and ten, at one hundred and ten pounds... any more at one ten, one twenty, thirty, forty, fifty... one sixty, seventy... one eighty at the back... against you near me... one eighty at the back and selling for a hundred and eighty pounds, all done at one eighty. Eight five four, thank you, one eighty. Lot number sixty seven... Lot sixty seven is another one... there we are, that one showing for you... a hundred pounds for this, and ten, twenty, at one hundred and thirty, forty... one hundred and forty is bid and selling... for one hundred and forty pounds, anybody else at one for one fifty, one sixty... going on sir? One seventy, one eighty... one ninety offered... I'm offered a hundred and ninety pounds, have you all finished at one ninety? The same buyer, thank you, one ninety for eight five four. Lot number sixty eight... Lot sixty eight is another one... there we are... that one is showing for a hundred pounds... at one ten, one twenty, one thirty bid, and s one forty... one fifty... sixty... one seventy... eighty... one ninety... two hundred... two twenty... two forty... two forty bid at the back and selling for two forty, all done at two hundred and forty. Eighty five four, thank you, two forty. Lot number sixty nine... Lot sixty nine, double page... there it is... Lot number sixty nine for three hundred pounds, at three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred... four hundred, going on sir? Four twenty, four fifty... four eighty bid... I'm offered four hundred and eighty pounds, I shall sell at four eighty if there's no further bid at four hundred and eighty pounds... five hundred in time... going one sir? Five fifty... against the lady now, at five hundred and fifty I'm offered and selling for five fifty. Eight five four, thank you, five fifty. Lot number seventy... Lot seventy... there we are, there's in there look, number seventy for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds, any more, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four hundred pounds, going on sir? Four twenty, four fifty... four eighty offered... I'm offered four hundred and eighty pounds, anybody else at four hundred and eighty pounds, have you all finished at four eighty? The same buyer, thank you, four eighty. Lot number seventy one... Lot number seventy one... seventy one... there's the stele showing... there's the carving showing there... for a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty, one seventy, at one hundred and seventy pounds, at one eighty offered, one ninety, two hundred now... two hundred is bid and selling for two hundred, you all done? At two hund two twenty, two forty... going on sir? Two sixty, two eighty... three hundred, three twenty... any more? Three three twenty, three forty, three sixty... still against you sir, three sixty, anybody else? At three hundred and sixty pounds and selling for three hundred and sixty, have you all finished? Three sixty is a commission bid for one O eight. Lot number seventy two... Lot seventy two... two-handled ding... there it is... Lot number seventy two... for two hundred and fifty pounds, at two hundred and fifty, two eighty, at two hundred and eighty pounds... at two eighty, three hundred, three twenty now... three twenty is offered... all done at three twenty? I shall sell at three twenty if there's no further bids at three hundred and twenty pounds... any more? Three twenty, that's number sixty three commission bid. Lot number seventy three... seventy three, the baluster vase... is showing... for fifty pounds... at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five pounds... at fifty five, any more at fifty five, you all done? At fifty five, sixty at the back, sixty five, going on sir? Seventy, seventy five... eighty, eighty five... ninety at the back... I'm offered ninety pounds, I shall sell at ninety, it's yours sir at ninety pounds... ninety pounds, gentleman left back and that's for eight five three. Lot number seventy four... Lot seventy four, the censer... there's the Ming censer showing... Lot number seventy four, a hundred for this, at one hundred pounds... at a hundred pounds and ten, one twenty, one thirty, at one hundred and thirty I'm offered and selling for one thirty, all done? At one hundred and thirty pounds, any more at one thirty? One thirty, thank you, for number... two two three. Lot number seventy five... Lot seventy five... soapstone panel... soapstone panel... eighty pounds, at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds, any more at eighty pounds, all done? Opening offer at eighty, any more at eighty pounds only, at eighty pounds... any more? Thank you, Lot number seventy six... Lot number seventy six... Peking er dishes... there's the Peking dishes, there's seven of them, we've got one of them showing... seven in the for a hundred pounds... one hundred pounds... at a hundred pounds and ten, at one hundred and ten pounds, any more at one hundred and ten, twenty, thirty... one forty in front, one fifty... one sixty, seventy...... yes? one eighty, thank you... one eighty in front, at a hundred and eighty pounds and selling for one hundred and eighty. Thank you, they're yours for one eighty and that's for number six one two. Lot number seventy seven... Lot seventy seven... Lot number seventy seven is showing for you and I've got a hundred pounds offered for it and ten, twenty, at one hundred and twenty pounds... at a hundred and twenty pounds, one twenty, you all done? At one twenty and selling... all done? One thirty, forty... a hundred and forty pounds, you all done at one forty, against you all, at one forty. One forty is for one eight one. Lot number seventy eight... Lot seventy eight... a patinated bronze teapot... there's the bronze teapot... a hundred pounds... at one hundred and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds... at one hundred and twenty pounds, one thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty... ninety, two hundred... two twenty bid... I'm offered two hundred and twenty to my right and selling for two twenty, two forty... two sixty, two eighty... three hundred... and twenty... three fifty... three eighty... four hundred... and twenty... four fifty, eighty... five hundred... and fifty... six hundred... six hundred pounds offered... anybody else at six hundred pounds still to my right at six hundred pounds. Thank you, six hundred pounds. [speaker002:] Two O eight. [speaker001:] Two O eight. Lot number seventy nine... Lot number seventy nine is the Ming bronze model... there's the bronze model showing... for three hundred pounds, at three hun three twenty, three fifty, at three hundred and fifty pounds... any more at three hundred and fifty, all done at three fifty, any more, at three hund three eighty, four hundred, going on sir? Four hundred going to you, any more? Four four twenty, four fifty... going on? Four fifty, any more? Four eighty, five hundred... and fifty, six hundred... any more? Six hun and fifty... six hundred and fifty pounds against you both, any more at six hundred and fifty pounds, have you all finished at six fifty? To you, six hundred and fifty pounds. Lot number eighty... eighty is the bamboo carving... there's the bamboo carving... fifty for this, at fifty, fifty five, sixty, sixty five... seventy, seventy five... eighty, eighty five... ninety is offered, back row, ninety and selling for ninety, all done? At ninety five... ninety fi one hundred pounds and ten... one ten, one twenty... thirty... one thirty against you on the back row, you coming in now sir? One thirty here, one hundred and thirty one thirty. Thank you, one thirty to my left... and that's for number... two one two. Er Lot number eighty one... Lot number eighty one... er the inkstone... there it is, Lot number eighty one... and I'm offered a hundred and fifty in two places... one hundred and fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety... two hundred, two twenty... two hundred and twenty bid... at two hundred and twenty pounds two twenty only, at two twenty. Two hundred and twenty pounds for one O three. Lot number eighty two... Lot number eighty two... oviform jar... eighty pounds for this... at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds... any more at eighty only, at eighty pounds, all done, at eighty, the opening offer, at eighty pounds... any more at eighty? Thank you, Lot number eighty three... Er Lot number eighty is the next to offer... a soapstone carving... there's the soapstone carving showing for a hundred pounds, at one hundred and ten, a hundred and ten pounds... any more at one hundred and ten... all done, at one hundred and ten pounds. Thank you, Lot number eighty four... Lot number eighty four... a square seal... there's the seal showing... eighty for this one, at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, a hundred pounds... and ten... one twenty... thirty... one forty... fifty... one hundred and fifty at the back against one sixty... one seventy... eighty... one ninety... two hundred... two hundred to my right, at two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred, two twenty, a new bidder... two fifty, at two hundred and fifty, two eighty... three hundred offered... I'm offered three hundred to my right and selling for three hundred pounds. Thank you three hundred. Two O five, thank you. Er Lot number eighty five... [clears throat] number eighty five is the jade pendant... Lot number eighty fi er Lot number eighty five, beg your pardon, it's a vase... there we are, the vase is showing... for seventy pounds, at seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds... at eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety... ninety five, a hundred... and ten... a hundred and ten to my right... one ten is offered and selling for one hundred and ten pounds. Thank you, one ten... two O nine, thank you. Lot number eighty six... Lot number eighty six I'm offering... there it is... for four hundred pounds, at four hundred pounds... at four hundred pounds, any more at four hundred only, at four hundred, you all done? And fifty, five hundred... going on? At five hundred pounds and selling... all done at five hundred pounds, have you all finished at five hundred? Five hundred pounds for one O five. Lot number eighty seven... Lot number eighty seven is a celadon jade carving... there's the jade carving showing... for two hundred pounds, at two hundred pounds, at two twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred offered... at four twenty... four fifty... going on sir? Four fi four eighty... five hundred... still against you... and fifty... six hundred... and fifty... seven hundred... seven hundred pounds is offered to my right, at s and fifty... eight hundred... still against you sir... eight hundred, going on? At eight hundred pounds and selling... for eight hundred pounds, have you all finished at eight hundred pounds, anybody else at eight hundred? Thank you, eight hundred pounds... two one four. Lot number eighty eight... Lot number eighty eight... the bronze model... there's the bronze model showing... and I'm offered a hundred and fifty for it, one fifty, one sixty, one seventy... any more? One eighty, one ninety... two hundred, two twenty... two forty, two sixty... going on sir? Two sixty, against you, two eighty, three hundred... still against you... going on sir? Three twenty, three fifty... three hundred and fifty pounds, all done at three fifty and it's still with me at three fifty against you all... three fifty, it's my bid at three hundred and fifty pounds. Three fifty commission for number seventy one. Er Lot number eighty nine... Lot number eighty nine... the seal... there's the seal there showing... Lot number eighty nine for seventy pounds, at seventy pounds, at five, eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, a hundred pounds and ten, at one hundred and ten pounds, all done at one ten, any more, one twenty... one thirty... one forty... one forty in the front row... at one hundred and forty I've got and I shall sell at one forty. Thank you, a hundred and forty pounds for six one two. Lot number ninety... Lot number ninety, the horn box... the horn box and cover is showing for you... for a hundred pounds... one hundred pounds... any more at one hundred pounds? All done at one hundred only? At one hundred pounds, any more at one hundred pounds? Any more, last time? Thank you, Lot number ninety one... Lot number ninety one... for a hundred pounds... at one hundred pounds... any more at one hundred pounds only? At one ten, at one hundred and ten pounds, you all done at one hundred and ten pounds? Any more at one ten? One ten. Er Lot number ninety two... Lot number ninety two... is the seal... Lot number ninety two... for thirty pounds, at thirty, thirty five, at thirty five pounds in white, thirty five only, forty, forty five... fifty pounds, at fifty five, sixty, sixty five... seventy I'm offered... I'm offered seventy pounds on my right, seventy five... eighty pounds... eighty five... ninety... ninety five... a hundred... and ten... twenty... thirty... forty... one forty bid against you now... one forty is here at one forty, all done? At one hundred and forty pounds. Any more? There was no other, one forty, thank you. Two O five... two O five, thank you. And Lot number ninety three... Lot number ninety three is the Buddha... There we are, there's the Buddha up, up here on my left... there it is showing for five hundred pounds... at five hundred pounds... I'm offered thank you, five hundred is bid, and fifty, six hundred and fifty... seven hundred and fifty... eight hundred... at eight hundred pounds, all done at eight hundred pounds, I'm selling for eight hundred, any further bids at eight hundred pounds? Any more at eight hundred pounds? Are you bidding? At eight hundred pounds to my right. Thank you, eight hundred pounds. Two O five, the same buyer. Lot number ninety four... [speaker002:] Showing here on your left sir [speaker001:] Lot number ninety four... showing here on my left there's there you are showing for you... Lot number ninety four... and I have two thousand offered for them, at two thousand pounds I'm bid, at two thousand two hundred, four hundred, two thousand four, two thousand six... two thousand eight, three thousand... three thousand two hundred, three thousand five... three thousand eight... four thousand, four thousand two hundred... four thousand five hundred... at four thousand five hundred, four thousand eight hundred... five thousand pounds... five thousand five hundred... six thousand... six thousand... [tape change]... seven thousand to my left and selling for seven thousand pounds, anybody else? At seven thousand, it's yours for seven thousand pounds. Thank you, the lady to my left, seven thousand and that's for number... eighty hundred and seventy, thank you. Eight seventy the last. Lot number ninety five, Lot number ninety five, the cabinet... [speaker002:] Showing here against the wall [speaker001:] the cabinet, there it is... showing on the left-hand wall there, Lot number ninety five is showing... for a hundred pounds, at one hundred and ten, twenty... at one hundred and twenty pounds... at a hundred and thirty, forty, fifty, sixty... one seventy for the lady sir... one eighty standing... one ninety... two hundred, two twenty for the lady... two hundred and twenty, two forty... two sixty... two hundred and sixty and it's still with the lady and selling for two hundred and sixty pounds... eight forty, thank you, two sixty. Lot number ninety six... Lot number ninety six... there we are, we've got this showing here now Lot number ninety six... at eighty pounds, at eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five is offered... I'm offered ninety five, anybody round it off for me? At ninety five, all done? At ninety five and selling for ninety five pounds, you all done? At ninety five. Thank you, eighty four, ninety five pounds. Lot number ninety seven, ninety seven, the lacquered panel... there it is, showing here on my left... showing at two hundred pounds, at two hundred pounds and twenty, at two hundred and twenty pounds... any more at two twenty, all done? Two forty, thank you, at two sixty... carrying on, sir? Two eighty, three hundred... and twenty, three fifty... three eighty to my left... I'm offered three hundred and eighty pounds, I'll take three eighty if there's no further bid at three hundred and eighty pounds. Thank you, eight hundred and twenty, three eighty. Lot number ninety eight... Lot number ninety eight... a cloisonne dish... we have that showing on my right this time, there we are... eighty for that... at eighty pounds... at eighty pounds, any more at eighty only, at eighty pounds, all done? At eighty, eighty five, ninety... ninety five, a hundred pounds... and ten... going to you at the back, going on, sir? You going on? One ten, here on my left... at a hundred and ten and selling for one ten. A hundred and ten, it's yours, sir. Two one two, thank you. Lot number ninety nine... Lot number ninety nine... cloisonne vases, we've got one of them showing... there's one of them showing there, for three hundred pounds... and twenty, forty, sixty, three hundred and sixty, any more? At three eighty, four hundred... coming in? Four hundred pounds, and four twenty, four forty... at four hundred and forty I'm offered... at four hundred and forty pounds and selling... for four hundred and forty pounds against you all. That's a commission bid for one O three, four forty. Lot number one hundred... Lot one hundred is the belthook... there's the belthook showing. For a hundred pounds... at one hundred and ten I'm bid, at one twenty, one thirty... at one hundred and thirty pounds... any more at one thirty, and selling... for a hundred and thirty pounds, you all done at one thirty. One thirty and that's for one one eight. Lot number one O one... Lot number one O one, the patinated vase... there's the patinated vase showing... at a hundred and fifty pounds, at one hundred and fifty pounds, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty to my left... two twenty is offered and selling for two twenty, two forty at the back... going, two sixty, thank you, two eighty at the back... two eighty, three hundred? Three hundred? Two eighty at the back, at two eighty, all done? At two hundred and eighty pounds, any more at two ei any more? Two, three hundred I'll take. No. Two eighty at the back, at two eighty... two eighty... er three five three. Lot number one O two... Lot number one O two is the lacquered bottle vases... there's the bottle vases showing for, a hundred and fifty pounds, at sixty, seventy... one hundred and seventy pounds... at a hundred and seventy, one eighty, one ninety... two hundred is offered, two twenty... two forty, two sixty... any more, sir? Two sixty against you near me... at two hundred and sixty pounds, you all finished? At two hundred and sixty pounds... two hundred and sixty pounds. Lot number one O three... Lot number one O three... for a hundred pounds... and ten, twenty... one twenty, any more at one hundred and twenty pounds, at one twen anybody else at one hundred and twenty pounds, any more? One twenty. Lot number one O four... Lot number one O four... military sword... there's the sword showing... for a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, sixty, at one hundred and seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty, two forty... two sixty bid... I'm offered two sixty and I shall sell at two sixty, any further bids? At two sixty... thank you, sir, eight three two, two sixty. Lot number one O five... Lot number one O five, the terracotta carvings... there's eight of them... there we are, all eight of them in the framed case... for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... and twenty, fifty, at three hundred and fifty pounds... any more at three fifty only, at three hundred and fifty, all done? At three hundred and fifty pounds. Three fifty. Er Lot number one O six... Lot one O six, the opium set... there's the opium set showing... for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... any more at three hundred only, at three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty... going on, sir? Four hundred, four twenty... four twenty, any more? Four twenty you're going to? At four hundred and four fifty, four eighty... going on? Four eighty... coming in? Five hundred, five fifty... six hundred offered... I'm offered six hundred against you, six fifty... seven hundred... seven hundred to my left, at seven hundred pounds. Yours, sir, thank you... seven hundred pounds... two two one? Thank you. Two two one the last. And Lot number one O seven, Lot number one O seven, the one-case inro... there's the inro... and I'm offered a hundred and fifty to start me, at one fifty, sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety... two hundred and twenty is bid, at two hundred and twenty is offered, selling... at two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty... two eighty, three hundred... and twenty, three fifty... three eighty... do you want to come in, sir? Three eighty in front... at three eighty and selling for three eighty... thank you, it's yours, sir, for three eighty... and that's for number six... six one... six one two... six one two, thank you. Lot number one O eight... Lot number one O eight... [speaker002:] Showing on your left [speaker001:] There's the lamps showing... Lot number one O eight... there we are showing for twenty pounds... at twenty pounds for the lamps... at twenty pounds anyone... anyone want them? For twenty pounds only. Twenty pounds... anyone want them for twenty pounds? No? Twenty pounds? Ten pounds? No? Thank you. Lot number one O nine... Lot number one O nine... is er... the cake stand... there's the cake stand showing... there's the cake stand... for twenty pounds... at twenty pounds again, anybody want it? For twenty pounds... twenty pounds... don't you want it for twenty? Twenty pounds only, ten pounds, at ten pounds, thank you, ten is offered and I shall sell at ten if there's no further bid, at ten pounds. The lady's offer, thank you, ten pounds and that's for number... six eleven, thank you. Lot number one hundred and ten... one hundred and ten is the bucket-shaped saki pot and cover... there's the pot and cover for ten pounds... at ten pounds, fifteen at the back now... fifteen is offered and selling for fifteen only, at fifteen pounds, you all done? At fifteen. Yours. sir, thank you, fifteen pounds and that's eight five three. Lot number one eleven... one eleven... chess board... there's the chess board... thank you, a folding chess board for ten pounds... at ten pounds I'm offered, thank you, fifteen in front... twenty at the back, twenty five in front... going on, sir? Twenty five, any more? Thirty pounds... at thirty pounds, any more? At thirty in the back row... at thirty pounds. Thirty pounds and that is for number... six O three. Lot number one hundred and twelve, Lot number one hundred and twelve... gentlemen, it's the bamboo picnic baskets, there we are, there's the picnic baskets showing in the front here... for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds, anyone want them for three hundred pounds? Two hundred pounds I want... at two hundred pounds... at two hundred pounds, anyone want them? At two hundred only, at two hundred pounds... all done? At two hundred. Thank you. Lot number one one three... Lot number one one three I'm now offering... there we are, the brush pot... there's the brush pot showing... for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... at three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred... and fifty... five fifty, six hundred for you, sir... six hundred, six twenty... six fifty... six hundred and fifty in the centre and selling for six eighty... seven hundred... and twenty... seventy fifty... seven eighty... eight hundred... and twenty... eight fifty... eight eighty... nine hundred... and twenty... nine twenty is bid on the left, at nine twenty and selling for nine hundred and twenty... thank you, sir, nine twenty and that's for number... eight four eight, thank you very much. Lot number one one four, Lot number one one four... the kukri... there's the kukri showing... Lot number one one four for sixty pounds, at sixty, sixty five pounds, at seventy, seventy five, eighty is offered... eighty five, ninety... I'm offered ninety pounds, any more at ninety and selling for ninety pounds, if you're all finished, at ninety pounds. Ninety pounds and that's for one eight two. Lot number one one five, Lot number one one five... has a revised estimate... Lot number one one five, two fifty to three fifty for this one, Lot number one one five... and I have a hundred and fifty offered for it, one fifty, sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty... at two hundred and twenty pounds, all done? At two fifty, thank you, at two fifty I've got... I shall sell for two fifty if there's no further bid at two hundred and fifty pounds. Thank you. [speaker002:] Five two three, sir [speaker001:] One two three, two fifty [speaker002:] Five two three [speaker001:] Five two three, I beg your pardon. Lot number one one six... one one six, the celadon jade pendant... there's the jade pendant... for sixty pounds, at sixty pounds, at five, seventy, at seventy pounds... any more at seventy only? At seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds... eighty five, ninety pounds... ninety five, a hundred... one hundred pounds against you, one ten to my right, against you at the back... one ten to my right, at one ten and selling for a hundred and ten. Yours, sir, one ten, thank you. Six O eight. Lot number one one seven... Lot number one one seven is the next to offer... celadon jade er pendant... another jade pendant... for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds... at fifty five pounds, any more at fifty five pounds only, at fifty five, sixty... sixty five... seventy I'm offered... I'm offered seventy to my left and I shall take seventy pounds, any more at seventy?? Seventy pounds, it's yours, sir. [speaker002:] Eight four five [speaker001:] Eight four five, thank you. Lot number one one eight... one one eight, the opium weights... there's the opium weights showing... Lot number one one eight, fifty for these, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five pounds, any more at sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five... eighty in front, eighty five... ninety in front... ninety pounds, going on? Ninety five... one hundred pounds... and ten... one twenty... one twenty against you... one twenty in the second row... at one hundred and twenty pounds... eight three three, thank you, one twenty. Lot number one one nine... Lot number one one nine is the next to offer... globular jars... and there are two in the lot, we have one showing... fifty pounds for the two of them... thank... fifty pounds? Eh? Fifty pounds anyone? Nobody want them? Thank you, fifty is offered. I've got fifty pounds bid and I shall sell at fifty if there's no further bids at fifty pounds only... at fifty pounds, you all done at fifty? [speaker002:] Five two three, sir. [speaker001:] Five two three, fifty pounds, thank you. Lot number one hundred and twenty... Lot number one twenty... there it is at the back on the left, one twenty... right at the back there for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred only? At three hundred pounds, anyone want it? For three hundred pounds, have you all finished, at three hundred pounds. Lot number one two one... Lot number one two one... the gilt-bronze figure... there's the gilt-bronze figure showing... for two hundred pounds, and twenty, two forty, sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty I'm bid, at three twen three fifty, three eighty now... coming in? Four hundred pounds... four hundred pounds, four twenty to you, sir... four fifty... four eighty... five hundred... any more? Five hundred against you... any more? For five hundred pounds standing at five hundred, all done at five hundred pounds. Thank you, five hundred for number two O nine? Yes? Two O nine. Lot number one two two... Lot number two... one two two, the gold lacquer shrine... there's the shrine showing... there it is for five hundred pounds... at five hundred pounds... at five hundred pounds... at five hundred pounds, any more at five hundred only, at five, you all done? Opening offer at five hundred pounds... thank you, Lot number one two two A... one two two A is the Tibetan bell, it's in front of the rostrum here... it's in front of the rostrum at two hundred pounds... at two hundred, two twenty, at two hundred and twenty pounds... two hundred and twenty pounds... you all done at two twenty? Anybody else? At two hundred and twenty pounds. Two twenty. Lot number one two three... Lot number one two three... there it is, Lot number one two three... for a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred pounds, two twenty offered, at two twenty to my left standing, at two twenty, anybody else? At two forty... two sixty... two eighty... three hundred... three twenty... three fifty... three eighty... four hundred... four twenty... four fifty... four eighty... five hundred... five hundred is offered, standing at five hundred pounds and selling for five hundred pounds. Five hundred pounds and that is for number eight three two. Lot number one two four... Lot number one two four... there it is, Lot number one two four... a hundred for this one, and ten is bid, at one hundred and ten pounds, at one hundred and ten pounds, any more, one twenty, one thirty... going on, sir? One forty, one fifty... one sixty, coming in Jim? One sixty in the back row... at one sixty and selling... for a hundred and sixty, one seventy standing... one eighty... one ninety... one ninety, two hundred pounds... any more? Two hundred pounds against the lady, at two hundred and selling for two hundred pounds... thank you, sir, it's yours for two hundred, that's eight five four. Lot number one two five, Lot number one two five, an Indian dagger... there's the dagger... for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy... seventy five, eighty pounds... eighty five, ninety pounds... ninety pounds against you, sir, at ninety, ninety five standing, a hundred pounds against you, at one hundred and ten standing... at a hundred and ten pounds on my right, standing at one ten. Thank you, a hundred and ten pounds for number six one O. Lot number one two six... Lot number one two six is a silver bowl... there's the silver bowl... fifty for this, at fifty, fifty five pounds... at sixty, five, seventy offered... I'm offered seventy to my left, at seventy, seventy five... eighty pounds... eighty five... ninety... ninety five... ninety fi one hundred offered... one ten... one ten to my right seated, at one ten, all done at one hundred and ten? Thank you, the lady's bid, one ten and that's for number six one e six eleven. Lot number one two seven... Lot number one two seven, an okimono... the okimono for four hundred pounds... and fifty, at four hundred and fifty pounds... at four hundred and fifty pounds, any more at four fifty, all done? At four hundred and fifty pounds... any more at four hundred and five hundred, thank you, and fifty... fi going on, sir? Five fifty against you at the back... at five hundred and fifty pounds, you all done at five fifty. Five hundred and fifty pounds. Lot number one two eight... one two eight, an okimono... there we are, another one showing for three hundred pounds... at three hundred pounds... any more at three hundred pounds, you all done? Opening offer at three twenty, three forty... going on sir? Three sixty, three eighty... four hundred, four twenty... four twenty... coming in now, sir? Four fifty, thank you... four fifty standing at four fifty and selling for four fifty, all done? At four hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Eight four one, thank you, four fifty. Lot number one hundred and twenty nine, an okimono... there's another one for you... for four hundred pounds and fifty, at four hundred and fifty pounds... at four hundred and fifty, five hundred, five fifty... going on, sir? Five fifty against you, any more? At five hundred and fifty pounds, if you're all finished at five fifty. Five fifty. Lot number one hundred and thirty... Lot one thirty... a koro... koro and cover, there it is... a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty now... one hundred and sixty pounds, all done at one sixty? Anybody else? At one hundred and sixty pounds, any more at one sixty? One sixty. Lot number one hundred and thirty one... Lot number one three one is the container... sutra container, there it is... for two hundred pounds, at two hun, two twenty, at two hundred and twenty offered, at two hundred and twenty pounds... any more at two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty bid... I'm offered three twenty and I'll take three twenty, any further bids at three twenty? Thank you, three twenty and that's for number... two hundred. Lot number one three two... Lot number one three two... is showing for you, Lot number one three two for thirty pounds, at thirty, thirty five, forty, forty five, fifty pounds, fifty five standing... at fifty five I've got and I shall sell at fifty five, sixty in front... sixty, sixty five pounds... seventy... going on? Seventy five... any more? Seventy five against you, are you coming in now, sir? Seventy five pounds standing at seventy five, all done at seventy five. Eight four one, seventy five pounds. Lot number one three three... one three three is the sword rack... there's the sword rack showing... for two hundred pounds... at two hun two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred bid... I'm offered three hundred pounds and ta I shall take it at three hundred pounds, anybody else? At three hundred pounds I'm selling for three hundred. Three hundred pounds, number seventy six. Lot number one three four, one three four... is the pipe... there's Lot number one three four... at eighty pounds, at eighty, eighty five, ninety five... at a hundred pounds and ten... one ten... one twenty, thirty... one thirty, forty, fifty... one fifty, one sixty offered... I'm offered a... [tape change]

[speaker001:] [talk in background] Okay then, welcome to everyone, and er hopefully a few minutes but if it does Yes, I realise [praying] God of power and love, be with us during our meeting. Look kindly on the tasks we have begun and assist us in our further undertakings. Give us the wisdom, through the help of the Holy Spirit, to realize our aims as a pastoral council, to understand what is needed, to find a means of achieving our end, and to do so with sens sensitivity for the feelings and opinions of our fellow parishioners. Guide us oh God with your love as we await the coming of your son and give us all grace to welcome him into our hearts as his mother welcomed him in Bethlehem, and we ask her help as we pray. Hail Mary [] [praying] Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners. Amen []. [whispering] [] Thanks ever so much. Is that anything important? Well, it was somebody who wanted to know if her treasurer man was here? And it was a young fellow who lives up Lane so I felt quite comfortable in saying I didn't think they had any young fellas who lived in Lane. I haven't received any apologies. I know is due to come. She said to me earlier today she was coming. Who else is missing then?? And, yes. The minutes of the last meeting, the twentieth, the nineteenth of October, which is quite a long time ago, did anyone have any particular comments? [general rustling of papers and general chat which is not clearly heard] There's no comments on the minutes?. Fine, next item. Just to get you into the mood perhaps, is it possible to have a report back on the visit to? Those who were down there. haven't come prepared with, with any notes. I did, you'll have to forgive me, I mean I think for the sake of those who were not at the meeting erm what we should really say is that actually said that he wanted to hear what kind of a parish we are so that he could attempt to match the, the incoming priest with you know the need of the parish. That was actually what he said, and he did then go on to say that you know he is one of a group of people who I think they call themselves the appointments committee and that their job, where appointments are concerned, is crisis management. So, I mean having said, you know, that he was interested to hear what kind of parish, I mean it was, it was obvious that it would also depend on who was available. That was the general feeling but he did, he gave us about an hour and a half. You know, we had a long time really just to kind of toss out. Erm, we'd had a meeting prior to going so we had a fair idea of you know, we kind of got together and shared some thoughts before we, before we went. I don't know if anyone wants to put anything into the pool of things that, points that we raised and er or a general feeling that they had after that meeting. Did he have any questions about our parish, or did he just listen to what information was being given? [clears throat] Yes, he certainly did ask questions about our parish. He did ask questions yes What? Can you remember anything? What was important in his mind, that's the thing. Mass attendance, erm, mentioned the hospital, he asked me what the hospital was like you know, whether it was acute or, or whatever erm He noted there were the two schools? Yes, he asked about the schools in the parish as well, and about the situation in and. And how it really fitted together, if they fitted together. But he did say there was a possibility that and could in time be made into a parish of their own. Did he have any comments on our erm constitution, having seen it? He did, he just can you just go through it with a fine toothcomb if you wanted it proved. He asked about parish organizations as well, didn't he? Yes, erm... I think, well, that many questions. I mean we, we did most of the talking I think really Well he, he was Sounds like you [LAUGHTER] He wanted we had to tell him you know basically. And what he did was he wrote down quite a number of things. Oh yes? I mean, he had to once or twice correct the emphasis of what he was saying. But erm, what He did say that with the mass attendance at around about nine hundred that we would only get one priest One priest, yes. Ideally we would have two but, nine hundred practising, one priest. But he said he was going to ask for two. Yes. The other thing we were tussling over was the erm the exact wording of collaborative ministry and the things Whether it was on banding it down and he said we would be happy about that Down yes and we said no, we wouldn't that would be incorrect [LAUGHTER] we wouldn't be happy I think was what we Did you ask him what the point of that was, was it a technicality? He said it was to prevent the priest being mixed up, it was an opportunity to a new priest to come in and sort of if it had become he could establish groups. Not all parish councils are. I was told that the last thing a parish priest coming in would want would be to take place before he It would, he did say, any sensible priest wouldn't want them to stand out, I think those were the words he used, immediately anyway. But in some parishes it er had been useful for them to stand out because the parish council was made up of people who had grown old with parish priests and er it was a chance to make a new start. Particularly [LAUGHTER] I mean you do get parishes where the parish priest has been there for the last thirty years or something like that. He's had feels like it I think what he really wanted was an outline of the parish. What we were expecting and erm he wanted to know, to a large extent, how we felt about all the erm things that are going on in the parish. I think as much as anything he was testing our mood on whether or not, whether we were going to be helpful or. Really, I mean I think i cos he'd obviously done no preparation at all really for the meeting. I doubt if he'd, I mean if he'd looked at the constitution it was only a constitution, it was oh yes, that's their constitution. I mean he hadn't a clue what it, what was written in it. No, I mean he didn't know we were an elected body, did he? That's pretty basic, isn't it? And he kept saying things like well, you will make them welcome, won't you? [LAUGHTER] He did actually, he made a comment about receiving the parish magazine and that th you know his awareness that the parish had been kept fully aware of the, the erm situation with the [cough] you know, he was, he was kind of very conscious of that, that erm, you that the parish were aware and that we all understood the situation and he commented on the generosity of the, which he said not all religious orders have been so generous in the past. Erm, but he also thought it was quite nice that they were, and good that they were, as generous, or have been as generous as they have. Can I make some comment about the meeting because something arise from that meeting which was in er important information for me, namely that the diocese are anticipating that will remain to look after, I gather. I mean, I think that came through the meeting. I think they're probably grateful Could I just raise one quick issue which I was going to mention under any other business but I'd like to get it out of the way, and that is er the departure. Er, if staying, I'm trying to make arrangements for to stay locally and most likely will be leaving round about Easter, so when it comes to the departure it will be myself. I would be very grateful if the departure could be as low key [LAUGHTER] I actually, I actually would request that at this stage, very early on, and quite seriously. But I think, I think, most parishioners and certainly th everyone on the parish council are very aware of both my feelings and the and er clearly it will be important to mark it and I'm sure we would wish to work together in doing so. Well, we thought a nice service of thanksgiving actually. Thank you. Very low key, very low key Erm, but I think you, I mean I do actually seriously Yes, alright Yes, Father put that forward and to get it out of the way. Is there anything else we need to say about the? One thing that he did make very clear at the end was that if we thought of other things that he should know about, or it would be helpful for him to know about, we should contact him, so he's left it very open for us to have an ongoing contact which I thought. I felt on the whole it was quite positive. I mean obviously on the whole he can't guarantee what sort of priest we're going to get, but the whole meeting was quite positive. Do you feel it will be appropriate for, to do a bit of a write up, about that,wh what can be said Yes Yes Yes as a follow up to the statement that was made on the evening, on the Sunday evening when you gave your explanation when made the point about the visit for a weekend away, or a day away, and to involve the parishioners. And the announcement that we were having that visit. Actually actually did go in the newsletter so the parish were aware that in the newsletter We did ask him about you know what arrangements were normal in his diocese for er handover. He said that it is er a matter between the incoming and outgoing priests, so He also interestingly asked us if we'd have any objections to another religious order. quite what he wrote down at the end [LAUGHTER] Because he said, he wrote down something like you would be quite happy, happy to, to have another religious order here, which is not at all what had been said. What had been said was we would be open to the poss I can't remember now the exact words he used, but We wouldn't object. we wouldn't object yes, it was very you know, the emphasis was very different and just as the you know the emphasis on, on the handover erm, he wrote down that we would be happy to stand down and in fact what we said was we We would be prepared to. we would like to continue and be prepared to serve and help the new parish priest. However, we recognized you know that stand down. Well, we didn't quite say that, but we don't really want to. [LAUGHTER] in order of to help him out Mhm, he did actually say that he thought it was highly unlikely Unlikely yes but of course when religious orders come in they usually want to be in the inner city and, and wouldn't exactly qualify We will serve the diocese and man in power as much as possible can if possible Is, who would er who would write that, was it you yourself would you be happy to try and draft something? It might be quite a difficult thing to draft. It is. Er, because clearly there are some points you wouldn't want to be too specific about. Don't know if we could hold them to, to it. On the other hand the point, for example, that one priest is, is a very distinct possibility, is something which could be expressed in some way I would have thought. What about? [speaker002:] I think it's quite er a possibility, or probability, that he will stay. Erm, actually that was mentioned at the open meeting, wasn't it? [speaker001:] This will go in the parish magazine, will it? Yes. And the Bishop sees the parish magazine? Yes. So therefore it will give you the opportunity of destroying the [LAUGHTER] Well, if I draft something and then let look at it cos she made notes? Yes, yes Yes it was, we did stress that I'm trying to think of a or two you see Mhm Or more Can we then turn to the er reflection item with feedback on day. [general rustling of papers] I didn't see this as being primarily er a, a reflection on the day as such, although they haven't actually had the opportunity to sort of mull it over. And I think such an opportunity might be helpful, to actually mull it over. But I have a feeling it might be easier to mull it over at the next meeting. Don't know whether people might be in agreement with that. It's not a very mulling it over evening, is it, with this? [LAUGHTER] But the longer we leave it, the harder it will be to Erm, can we not just toss some thoughts Yes around about it, like whether we liked it or not, whether he was, it was a good thing to have had it, we should have been better not to have had it with the situation at the time, you know, that kind of mulling over might be I think it helped us to get to know her, apart from anything else. I think it helped us to get to know one another better. I know a lot of us have done terms for a long term, but to be together closely and observe each other reacting and doing things it gives a better idea of how people think, being in this together. Yes. Yes, I have to say I enjoyed it far more than I expected. I actually enjoyed it. I found it er inspiring in a way. The only thing that I did find was that the, getting to grips with the issues er th was certainly as difficult, possibly more difficult, than I realized. Erm, I felt very much that er without 's very skilful erm chairing of the last session that it would have been, it could have been, yes, very, I mean, a very inconclusive day. I actually do think what we've got down in the third session is an enormous help from the point of view of our future review. But er that was, that was very much er clutching at things that might have been at the last moment. I certainly enjoyed it. And so did I. There was certainly a lot of pressure during the day Yes. Well we had to discuss on the way home in the car that it would be better to have parish council meetings during the day rather than the evening. Because we were so much more awake and alert, I certainly was. [LAUGHTER] You all seem to be very alert in the evening I don't know, not always [LAUGHTER] It helped not having the accompaniment. I think it's louder, do you agree? but not a lot Well, they've soundproofed the room, we can turn it up now [LAUGHTER] jukebox in the hallway? Take the fuse out so we can't hear it Absolutely Does anyone, would anyone offer a more critical appraisal of the day? I think we were a bit woolly really I think th the difficulty with that kind of day is that unless you've decided what the outcome's going to be before you start, you're not actually going together are you? You know, so, I mean, in a way, it's more for a new parish council coming together erm you know, perhaps one of the, the most important things we have to learn is that it's, it is difficult to be very specific because you know we're not an action committee. We are, we are about trying,u understanding each other, trying to understand the parish, understand what the parish is, is looking for. Erm, and if we decide that we're going to just kind of, as a result of a day like that, do three things or something like that, you know, erm I'm not sure that that's helpful but No, I think maybe We should maybe have concentrated on getting to know each other and another time try to focus on things perhaps, I don't know, I just I think the whole field is, is quite complex when you ponder on it. I think there's a danger, if we keep surveying a wide range over a long term, you end up by not moving forward very quickly in a particular direction. Now, I know it is sometimes bad to be very narrow in your outlook but I think it was a good idea to focus on, we consider as a pretty high priority and make as much progress as we can, without forgetting other things and try and teach ourselves to do something within a fairly short space of time. Is that not a? Because when you do that then that encourages you to, oh yes, well we can, you know, that went quite well but we ought to have done that and that and then you immediately, you, you're eager to do other things and people get used to splitting up and tackling things in a focused way. You were making a good point there. That is what happens in sub-committees, isn't it? We get down to the nitty-gritty there really. Well, that's, yes and to some extent I think even the general meeting has to be fairly focused. I mean I personally think that we've, that with that third session, looking at things, certain topics have come out Yes that we need to focus on, so we've highlighted what to move forward on those those issues. Yes. some of them are already actioned there Like, like which Well, we've also already had a report to the magazine. Yes Is this an appropriate time to erm? It might be, yes Yes, okay. Because I, I've received a letter erm from a parishioner, if I can find it, er which I have photocopied for everyone, which I think was a direct response to the fact that there was something in the magazine and perhaps a direct response to other meetings and to a general feeling as well. Erm, because it might, it might be helpful you know to see how. Sorry? That's not our parish [LAUGHTER] [cough] [general rustling of papers] [sigh]... [cough]... [sigh]... [cough]... That's Is this the only response we've had to that article? It's the only response I know of, yes, I don't know, had anybody heard? Has anybody had a There are general sort of comments that they don't really know what the parish council does and they're not very sure, erm, sort of it, it was mainly through the children's card thing, perhaps a little bit of money that their child, you know didn't me meet any recognition but wouldn't it have been nice to know exactly what the picture had been for, and sort of the nitty- gritty doesn't necessarily get filtered through. You know, we're not direct enough in what we say is actually happening with parish council money. Again, this is, it depends on the sort of person, doesn't it? The sort of person who's ready to pick nits or the sort of person who's, what [general rustling of papers] [cough] I think erm it does tie in erm er what you've just said with one of the points that made at the P P C day, that the P P C now has no representatives' organizations or parish organizations. I mean, there are parish organizations represented here but not a very large number But not official but they're not the representatives, and this does have some bearing I think on er remark with regard to erm where does the parish council P P C actually fit in? One of the areas erm that I think we specifically try to fasten on are, is, is actually in the gaps. We've said well let's not look at the parish organizations, specifically, because those are covering areas that we don't need to look at. We're trying to look to the gaps, and I wonder if we are, as you suggest in the comments that you've received perhaps losing, we're not perhaps sufficiently direct in addressing the parish organizations which are after all the core of a parish. I mean, those, if the members of the parish organizations are going to read what's in the parish magazine with the greatest interest The, the point of the change in our constitution was actually to er move strictly away from all parish organizations having a right to representative here, and just a small number have elected. I mean, we consciously have moved the constitution away from. Basically, because it's felt that the parish council shouldn't be interfering with those organizations, that is, their operation Yes erm, and the direction of the parish council should be more in terms of defining strategy and so on. I'm a bit worried at some of what is saying here erm, which seems to me like wanting to er create bureaucratic structure within a parish that, charts, positioning of everyone and they should know therefore, I just don't think is, that's my personal view, I don't think it's the right approach at all to a parish. Yes, you've got to have a certain degree of structure in it and that happens I think through the parish council in a number of the key areas, but you have got to retain a degree of flexibility, otherwise you will just stifle initiative, you'll stifle growing issues that happen. I mean, in the parish over the erm what five to ten years, the things that have grown are in their own, the, various other support groups and so on. Now I'm not necessarily thinking that that would've happened if the parish council said, we will set up a group. Yes to do it don't necessarily think that that type of event happens Yes, I, I, I, I'd agree. I wonder if we should have that poster on sort of permanent display there to show the links that P P C have with different organizations, and also the sub-committees that people have brought in, because actually the C W L congress is a bit odd, as is actually on the sub-committee And I, on the P P C day you know actually said that the people at the had asked you what goes on at They did ask me if they but erm I can im I can't imagine that hasn't told th the of the C W L, has she? No? Well, it doesn't sort of impinge on the Sunday School or isn't likely to Cos she's very much involved in it and er it is a good system. I used it in Germany. Does it matter if they're not erm, if they don't know of each other 's existence? Presumably if, if people can't get to Sunday School, you would hear about it and do something about it No, to be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say there was No, I didn't mean there was I think to be quite honest, if they're not interested enough to try to get to classes I think Yes well I, I certainly in this parish, I cannot see how people couldn't manage to get to classes If they really wanted to if they wanted to, yes. And the s frankly er I think the same as er er the comment on where our talents lie. If anybody has a talent, then they should offer it. You can't go around pushing people to do things that they don't want to do. If they offer then that's fine. I'm afraid you'll find that a volunteer force is much better than a pressed one. I think each group works on their own behalf, don't they, to encourage others to join their group? Do you Yes think that person would, would be or not? I'd be much more impressed by some positive suggestions of what we might do cos I th you know, months ago I was browbeaten outside church over a lot of similar issues and I said then, you know I think the comment about the is quite extraordinary actually. But nothing ever positive, nothing ever positive, is ever said. It's always destructive and critical. Couple of points though about this erm, how the parish council is recognized within the organization because it's important and that did our day as well and, I suppose in a way it's the one, one or so positive things out of this that we kind of latch on to, that the communication part is important and erm there may be others that feel the same way that we're not actually communicating what it is that we're doing, so, so maybe And what they're meant to do for us. we can look at involvement with the organizations. I mean, you can do that in various ways, by inviting them all to come along, you know, have a Saturday down at, invite them to come along as representatives of the organizations and talk with the parish council suggest a surgery Whatever it might be. When I first asked wh how many replies we'd had er I was quite pleased that we haven't had many because it, it shows that people read it, or may not have read it [LAUGHTER] those, those read it thought yes, this is, this is, I've got nothing to object to, nothing to er to write and complain about, or nothing to take issue with, so anyway I, I find that encouraging. Do you think we ought to make our mission more erm, we ought to have a mission the parish council Like why we're here? Well, there's something similar to that on the poster, isn't there, that we do Yes, but I think there is something to be said for communicating this in a different way. I don't think, I mean, it's probably to say as we are ourselves struggling, for example with the issue of general welcoming. I mean th I, I, I feel that's actually quite crucial I actually think we shouldn't take too much notice of the letter. I don't No, no but I mean,th there're so many issues that we are trying to get to grips with we have to actually communicate it to people and say well this is But it's how to do it that's the problem. Yes Yeah Yeah But I don't think we ought to be too dismayed about one letter like this. I'd agree Yeah, but I do think there are some Yes, there are some issues there, yes I think a point that comes over very much is the one about the structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they're still in the very traditional [cough] which I must say I certainly in that a parish council is it, and everybody else is linked in at lower levels. Now this is people's traditional expectation and they still have it, whereas we're of the mind that instead of this er you've very cleverly got in this circle and the last day that I suddenly realized that we're all equal and moving around in a reasonably organized manner but still we're rather loose, whereas the traditional view is a parish councillor says it and everybody does the rest, with a few er renegades and revolutionaries at varying parts in your parish. Now, we have to get over to people this changed idea, and it hasn't been got over because nobody that I've listened to, or talked to, knows, in fact people say, what does the parish council do? I never hear anything about them. So, first of all, the method of dealing with things in such a changed manner has to be put over to people and I think the links, which were traditional, which no longer apply, have to be and it must be a link going out in directions like this. Now, you can have it by the written word and the spoken word, but I think the links we must continually have all the time are personal links, talking to people. It's no good us saying oh well, nobody writes about that article, because a vast majority of people, that's all they know about it, if they've read that article at all, and not everybody reads the parish magazine. You stand a better chance if you put something with the Sunday and even then that might not be completely enough to reach down to the crevices, but I think some method, and that's why I suggested surgeries actually, was that we have to talk regularly to people face to face and once you're in a room with people then it goes, doesn't it? And we can find out all sorts of things. We can find out far easier what is really required, and they can begin to realize that we're not just a set of photographs at back of church with names underneath, that we're actually person who are thinking of speaking. The links are, to my mind, not close enough, and they're not the right type of thing for this changed situation which we've got. That's the feelings I get. Cos if people won't read the parish magazine, then I don't think they'll come along to the Well, I I wouldn't subscribe to that. I think because people are n sorry, sorry, people are notoriously hesitant at coming forward. We're the exceptions. I say that without hesitation. We're willing to come forward and talk and try and do things. The vast majority of people, if you've run any organization of any type, you will know very well people need leading, er and it's not a matter of brainwashing, it's explaining what is available, what are the possible goals. Now people will listen to you and they'll have had, had their own personal goals but they feel not worthy of expressing it anyway because they think, well I've had this idea, I'm probably up the creek, and they never say anything. But then they suddenly listen to what you say and they think, well that's funny, I was thinking about that when I was saying my prayers the other day. I thought that too. So I'm always reaching down to people, and I don't mean down as being inferior, reaching out to people is a better phrase, and I, I never give up about people wanting to partake. If you're in an organization and you're leader, you, you have to encourage them. With certain organizations you've got to get a whip out occasionally, but this is not that type of situation. But i you have, I'm sure to go to people and not be at all surprised if some people you can never raise the enthusiasm, because that's human nature, and you accept human nature as it is, but if you're positive and encourage and lead without being coercive to a high degree, I think you get more responses. I'm glad you've made reference actually to that picture of the circles because I, I erm I came up with that after we'd had the parish day and i you know, observing who was there on the parish day and then trying to see how, how we reach people and, and, and who were missing and how important was it that everybody should be there on parish day, and wasn't it that people who are involved should be there on parish day because that's a point at which erm you know parish council can meet those very people. Erm, I would be happy, I mean, I purposely, I put some lines in just because I was thinking that way at the time, but I'd be very happy if other people would scribble it out, change it, throw it back at me, you know, I would like to see I suppose, just to see if we can erm, if that, because, because I have to say that although you know part of reading 's letter, erm, I feel it's, it, it feels destructive and it feels very critical. That's right. And it feel like it's telling us we're not, we're not doing anything right. At the same time I think others, or the points she raises, erm, you know are good points and I don't think that we should just... my personal feeling is that we shouldn't just shelve it. I'm sure she's not the only person who feels like this. I think I feel like it myself in fact. A lot of the points she raises I would raise myself, I would see as areas that we, we can be tackling, but how we tackle them, you know, I, I, again, I would endorse what said erm, we'll go back to and say right, now, you've highlighted some issues, now, how do we do it in practice? And we actually tackle it. But I'm not sure that that is the right response. I think that is one of the problems. We are still feeling our way ourselves and I think that's very important and I think it's, there's er actually, I have to say er I detect in 's letter because I am quite sure that a year ago she would have questioned the parish council's existence, and indeed she's being, erm, to my perception, highly critical of er the fact that the parish council has even dared to sort of taste the oxygen outside their own homes. And, and I think what is actually happening at the moment in, in the parish is that there is some perception, there is a perception, that something is, that things are changing and that the parish council is of importance. Did you say starting, you did say starting? I did, but possibly too strong a word, but certainly I think erm, I think the struggle in the last couple of years with regard to the parish council, has been to, to actually introduce it to people's perception as of anything but importance. And I, I actually tend to subscribe to the view, you know, that if we did have a surgery in it would be a non-event. And certainly it would have been, it would have been in the past. I think it would only become an event if parish councils do something which people took exception to and say that it's But I mean There're always people that'll criticize though, aren't there? But there are ve but Yes. there are very few people that will actually come along and say, well done. Yes. But you don't expect that. Well, no, no you don't expect it but that's a fact of life. It's a fact of life, yes One of the, one of the things that I mean the is cards. Now these are, cards are typed right going on to the sub-committee. Now if the parish council had said look, we're going to use these, people would actually say why should we, and I think that's a debate. You know, it is something very specific. But I do actually, I do actually think it's fair enough to say that the parish council can be, and should be, more clear, more direct in telling people what it's doing. And I think it can afford to be now, because I don't, I don't agree with you. The parish council has not been here as long as the parish. It's not been It's not been as far as the parish is concerned Not ours, no. But this is a traditional thing which is happening Well, I traditionally in most Catholic parishes, the only person who's it, is the priest. The priest yes But where they've gone on to have parish councils, you've had the typical triangular structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they, they don't express it to me as such, but the felling you get over is that's the sort of structure they're used to, because the structure of the church is built in anyway, and the whole structure of the church This is only a reflection of larger areas of the church above, that's if I may use that phrase, which is happening. Not necessarily the but certainly from below the top it's happening all over the world, it's, it's er upsetting everybody, they don't know whether they're coming or going. It's certainly down to our level. What of course you're saying here, it comes out here in 's letter, er, the structure, because er you said earlier that you realize now that we're looking, we're filling in the, in the gaps if you like of the local organizations. Well, you see, here's a typical example here of the way is thinking she says, could there have been er could there not be more contact and cooperation... er, if I am in a group providing music, which she is, there's every chance that the readers will have no knowledge of our intentions prior to our arriving in church, but why don't the music people tell? That was one of my thoughts, where's the cooperation in that? Well, who's going to say that? Where's the communication? Well, somebody did say it I thought it would be, you know it would only Either, either, either, either the parish council can say it in any form that they wish, or they can instruct me to say it. Well, I think the point is And if it's for the parish council, I'm very happy to do so. Yeah, that's right. But the point is that if, if musicians go to service, they know there's enough readers and if the musicians decide to take on part of that reading one service, surely it's only courtesy for the musicians to say to the readers, whose lists are published months in advance, terribly sorry but we're gonna do this this time, and do you mind stepping down? I mean that's, that's only courtesy. It's commonsense Yeah but I must admit it's up to each person that organizes it to say that, great, we don't need the collectors. And somebody said to me at the last children's mass, thank you, you're the only one that tells us we're not needed. This is the regular men who do the collecting. So, yes, I think it sounds commonsense but No, no But it's not our job to people, is it? No, I'm not The men collect it and know that of the children doing it, you would think that they'd have noticed over the years, that at the end of each month it says, on the readers' list it says children and I think that Some things are taken as read and they're not actually said. I think it I must say when I read that in 's letter, I didn't read that specific erm comment, I read something, something much much wider really, that, that really I felt that what she was saying was you know that when, when there is a group, then readers er musicians, everybody else reflect together and come together before they actually, you know, they don't all operate the same but they come together and they reflect together on what the, the theme is, or you know, what was the main point of the readings. Erm I, I somehow felt that that's what she was feeling that there was something like that lacking. Erm Well, we recognized that two three years ago but it hasn't been filled yet So we're aware that there is a gap, yes Is it not something that erm the literature group coming out of the erm the course have begun to tackle, you know, the idea that there should be some kind of coordinating personal body or something that erm er has agreed, as a result of those new meetings, to coordinate music, and that means again filling gaps. Oh, I see. Erm But she's not a committee on her own is she? She's not, no. She's one person. Yes, yes, but I mean one person can very often do things Better than, yes better than others Anyway, we're going to talk about coordinating readers and musicians so they can double do it if they wish. You know, as not I see It may well be that they're doing it, with er other ways of doing it and er that's, that's discussion, but I do actually think that there is sometimes something to be said, and I think a group can say it more easily than individual, is if you want something done, do it, but don't come along and complain. You know, and I feel, I do feel very angry, I mean th th the family that she's referring to who can't, who have difficulty hav getting transport for Sunday morning, they're not parishioners, but are actually in the parish, and they know perfectly well that if they ask they will get transport, and indeed in the past they have asked, and they have got transport. You know, I mean people play funny buggers here, and excuse my language [LAUGHTER] and I, I mean, we could all go along and say what we want and what our needs are but that's not what we're talking about. That's not what parish councils about either, is it? That's what a parish is about. [cough] There are times when people are in need, and that's fine, but the problem in this parish is not the people in need not being supplied, the problem is that people are, are simply receiving what they wish to receive and not actually making very much contribution. Now, we may well argue, we're supposed to encourage them, we've actually got to make them, create the conditions in which people are encouraged to come forward and take part. how to get on to the parish council the other day so I thought was quite formative step yes Yes People are recognizing us you did touch earlier on about welcoming which is at the forefront of my mind all the time. Er, I mustn't be guilty of commercials but in the last council meeting of the night, again the subject came up of how we could welcome people coming to mass and this is nothing to do with a request council at all and er we ended up, and I think it's fair to say what we decided er here, that people would individually they didn't know approach them. Er, I thought personally that was a bit too but I'm forever trying to organize Well, no, it is a start. did it a year ago Yes and it lasted about a week I know not everybody thinks this is the, what welcoming is about, but be aware that somebody in the parish knows also of the problem and they themselves are trying to feel their way forward to er some s partial solution. It's, it's just a thing I thought I'd mention here. You know, this is what I would expect every group in the parish to do, to tackle areas where I think it could be organized easily Yes And this may well be something which we should be saying to the priest Yes, yes to the parish, organization you know you are You know, I think it's very interesting th that you know that has raised this point that you know why couldn't the parish council come to us? You know, because I think we as parish council would have thought that we were interfering if we suggested that we should go to observe somebody's group meeting. You know, that's, that's something that we've been very careful about. We've been very careful not to be seen to be interfering or for anybody to think that we were going to tell groups how they would run their groups, because the groups are fairly autonomous and they pre-existed parish councils er, but a you know this is almost a direct invitation and we could actually respond to this in terms of an invitation and ask other groups if they would be interested in our respon in our going to, to visit them, rather than a surgery where maybe we'd sit here and nobody would turn up. Erm, you know, that we, that we've been invited to reach out and why not respond? Yes, that that's a good way of doing it. I think that's an excellent suggestion. It is, yes. And to er voice our own concerns which obviously coincide with parish organizations So how do we, how do we tackle that? Is that something that the logistics of it is worked out in and then but, but everybody takes part in it, the whole parish council somehow takes part in it? Would anybody have er an objection to taking part in an activity? I think, if we do, we would need to properly structure how we what our objective was, are we just explaining what parish council is about, offering to listen [tape change]

[speaker001:] [talk in background] [speaker002:] Right, good morning, has everybody got two handouts, one called can you all hear me okay? Oh, it's the first time I've used one of these so... you should have two handouts, one called Advocacy Guide, one called Advocacy Criteria Guide. Has everybody got t those two handouts? [speaker001:] [talk in background] [speaker002:] Okay, a couple of before we start. If you haven't picked up these two handbooks that are on the table outside, can you do so some time today, okay? So by the end of today make sure you've got those. Also, just a reminder, next week you won't have a lecture at this time. Your lecture will be at eleven o'clock, that's for next Monday. [speaker001:] [talk in background] [speaker002:] Right, some of you know me, some of you don't. For those who don't, my name is. Erm, and I'm going to be talking to you this morning about advocacy. Now, you may not realize it but you've been in civil litigation and criminal litigation, you've been doing advocacy all term. Because what is advocacy? Presentation, collection of information, preparation of information. It's not just standing in court. Advocacy is the skill of good presentation and information, and that starts on the day that you first interview a client. It goes on when you're actually preparing statements, affidavits, pleadings, all those things which will eventually be used in court. It's not just the end result of standing up in court and representing a client. But this part of the course that we're specifically calling advocacy will concentrate on that part of the skill of advocacy, of the actual standing up and presenting information. Why do you need to know advocacy skills? One of the reasons is because the Law Society says you've got to have advocacy skills, and you'll find in your manual the actual amount or degree of advocacy skills you will eventually have to learn. This is what you might call phase one within the L P C. Phases two and three you will have during your training contracts. Some of you might be thinking, well, I'm never going to advocate, I never intend to go anywhere near a court. Even if you don't, the skill of advocacy, the skill of thinking concisely, presenting clearly, is a useful skill even if you never actually use it in the courtroom. In meetings, in presentations of all kinds, the skill is useful. Those of you going into large practices may think well, I'll never advocate, counsel will do it, but times are changing. Large practices are more and more expecting their solicitors to do their own advocacy, and not instruct counsel. Some large practices are beginning to put themselves forward as specialist advocates for smaller firms who can't specialize in that way. So whichever sort of practice you're going into, you may at some point be required to advocate in some sort of court setting. As I mentioned, you've been getting some advocacy experience, although you might not have realized it, in litigation already. When it comes to the summer in your options that you take there, you will to a lesser or greater extent get some more advocacy experience during the summer. But we're concentrating this week and next week on the advocacy skill of standing up before a court.... What's advocacy about? Is it just the contents? Is it the presentation of information? Or are there lots of other things that you need to be aware of?... This is the impact that a speaker has when they stand up and speak to a group of people. Only seven percent of the words that they speak, of their impact, based on the words they speak, thirty eight percent is based on their voice and the way that they present that information. Fifty five percent are all the other messages that you're giving out, by the way you stand, the way you dress etcetera. So when you think about when you're preparing for your advocacy exercises, the actual content that you prepare, although important, is not going to have the maximum impact. The maximum impact is going to come from the way you stand, lots of other things, the way you speak... that's based on various studies that were done. They weren't on court settings so I would imagine in a court situation perhaps the impact of words is slightly higher, you might expect, but it's still going to be a low percentage in respect of the overall conta image that's put over. So when you are preparing, you need to think about the words you use. They need to be clear, they need to be simple words, they don't need to be complex ones, because you've got to put over what you're saying very clearly. To be effective you've got to structure the information that you give. You will be getting scenarios and you won't be expected to put all that information over in one block, you're expected to structure your information. You also need to develop a persuasive line of argument and we'll come back to those things later on. So let's consider for a moment... what are the attributes, the other attributes, that an advocate needs? I'm just going to put the video on for a moment... [video introducing jasper carrott] Thank you. I'm sorry, it stops before the jokes start. I'm afraid no matter how good your advocacy performance is, you're never going to get an ovation like that, and we won't expect you to do it in front of that size of audience either. So the reason I put Jasper Carrott up here is just to think for a moment, here's somebody who's obviously a really effective and great communicator. But could you send Jasper Carrott out to court? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay, then you would all agree, you've got to put him through the old P C course. Why can't you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] why can't you send him down to court? What have you got to change about him? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [speaker002:] His coat, yes. So the way he's, isn't it the way he's dressed for that is fine, but you can't send him down to court like that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] The er facial expressions are perhaps over the top for court? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Sorry, the unedited version... Right, so what have you got, what have you got to change about him? What have we got to change about ourselves? We've got to think about the way we dress. Dress is not going to be compulsory [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well, dear, I suppose you really would make an impact then wouldn't you? Erm... but we won't, well we're not going to be descriptive, we're not going to ask say that you must wear suits or you must whatever. But our experience is that this sort of ad this sort of presentation interviewing those sorts of things, they're very different forms of presentation. But this form of presentation, which needs to be quite formal, what other students have found is that if you dress formally actually it helps you to act formally, because this sort of presentation is going to be very different. Right, so what are we going to ch we're going to change the way he dresses, we're going to change the mannerisms, various things like that. One of the things you, you've got to do is get used to actually talking standing up and the first thing you do you find when you s talk standing up is you discover that you've got hands. I talk with my hands. Many people talking with their hands. And you've got feet, and you move around. And you've got hair that falls in your face and you sort of, and all those things you've got to learn to cope with because if you're worried about what you're doing with your hands, or your feet, or your hair, then you can't then concentrate on putting over your information effectively. So when you're practising bail application, and I'll talk about that in a moment, think about what you're going to do, how you're going to stand. Those of you who saw today will know that he calls this position the Adam and Eve position. And then there's the Prince Philip position. Or there's holding, anything, that keeps your hands under control. If you know you tend to talk with your hands, how're you gonna keep them under control? The other thing that tends to throw people the first time they every do ad advocacy is that you're going to talk to somebody who will not talk to you, who will not s possibly even smile at you, who won't give you the usual feedback that we're u that we're used to when we're talking to someone. So be prepared for that, be prepared that the person you're going to talk to is not gonna give you that usual to and fro feedback and don't be thrown by that. Preparing, try not to use scripts. When you're preparing what you're going to say, use notes, and I've given you some guidance in the handout on using notes. Why not use a script? Because if you're speaking from a script you're going to be speaking like this. You can't make eye contact if you're speaking to a piece of paper. You can't be persuasive if you're speaking to a piece of paper, if you're reading from a script. Also, what you generally find is that if somebody is reading as opposed to refreshing their memory from looking at a piece of paper and then letting it flow, if they're reading from it it's dull, it lacks sparkle. The words may be brilliant, the sentences may be perfectly constructed but it hasn't got that life in it that the more spontaneous talking will have, and it's less persuasive. Those of you who've done some advocacy before may have used lecterns. You will not be getting lecterns this time around. The reason we've elected not to give you lecterns is you'll never get lecterns in real life. If you go into a real court there aren't lecterns. So you've got to get used to advocating with just an ordinary table, and how do you do that? How do you cope with that? Again, if you're going to be using notes, you don't want to be talking down to a table, so think about whether you're s you're going to, in your practising, are you going to let your eyes flick down to your notes that're on the paper, on the table, or are you gonna pick them up? Are you going to just have them in front of you so you can flick your eyes up and down to remind yourself what you're next going to say? Don't hold them too far up. Remember in your content that you're representing a client. The court isn't really concerned about your views, it's concerned about your client and the argument you can formulate for the client that you're representing. Be realistic about your client's position. Don't try to paint a picture of your client being the perfect citizen if he's not the perfect citizen. The other thing to remember, you're trying to persuade the court to your views, or the view that you're putting forward for your client, you're not telling the court what they must think. You're putting over information on the basis that the only thing that a t an intelligent person think I'm saying to you now, what's going to be the effect of that on the listener? If somebody says you must think this, the only way of doing it is, that's not going to be persuasive. So you've got to think in terms of persuasion. Right, what are we going to expect you to do? The first exercise you're doing is a bail application. And the timetable for that will be going out on the, the noticeboard some time this afternoon. Now some of you will be doing your bail application on Wednesday and some on Friday. Because, and you'll be given the instructions for those in your small group sessions today. Because the, we can't put all of you into, that're doing advocacy into one small group session, you may find yourselves with a different tutor, or at a different time, to when you would normally have your small group session. So be careful to make sure you find your number on the timetable and know where you're going and who you're going to be with. Also, you're going to be doing it in fours, so four will you, four of you will arrive at the beginning of the session, and four of you will arrive half way through. And those of you who ar who arrive half way through will need to wait outside. All the times that you need to arrive at you will find on the timetable. The first session is designed to be one that gives y gets you accustomed to advocacy, to be non-threatening, and to be one where you can simply literally find your feet and get used to advocating in that way. You won't be given a great deal of feedback in that session, just enough to get you going. The majority of the feedback you're going to get to help you find your advocacy skills will be after the supervised litigation that you'll do next week. I think you were all given a timetable last Monday which showed where the various advocacy things are going to be. So this week you'll do a three minute application, you'll see the way in which th that's going to be done from the instructions in the small group session that you'll get today. Non-threatening, try and relax, just try and get used to standing on your feet. It will be videoed, to se you'll make two applications within that small group session and a second will be videoed but only for you to see so that you can take it away and try and learn from er seeing yourself on video. The second advocacy exercise is on that first er timetable called unsupervised mitigation. You'll be given a ro a pair of you will be given a room on your own, and a video camera, and asked to practise advocacy skills plea in mitigation. And the second ad the third advocacy will be the supervised mitigation when you'll do it with a tutor and then have separate individual feedback given to you. When you come to the small group session this week, you'll need to bring with you your video tape. Make sure it's at a point on the video tape where it can be recorded immediately because there won't be time to find the right point, and also make sure you bring with you a watch because you're going to need to be very tight on, on times, so try and remember to bring a watch with you. All the pieces of advocacy that we're going to ask you to do are short. Three or four minutes is all that we're going to ask you to do each time. One of the reasons for that is that one of the skills of the advocate is to learn to be concise and to get over the message very quickly, and that's one of the reasons for giving you a short period of time. The other thing that's available to you in making your preparation is a video of local practitioners. It will be available from tomorrow morning. You'll be able to borrow it from the office downstairs and view it in the library. On that video you'll find three local practitioners. They, on that video, are bill er bail applications, applications for plea in mitigation applications and three examples of how not to make an application before the court. All three are very experienced advocates before the courts but all three of them have deliberately done one application wrong, so you can see the typical things that advocates do do that should not be done. And I think, if you look at that video, it will actually perhaps encourage you because it sh yes, those are experienced advocates, I'm not expecting you to refine your skills to that level, but I think if you see the, the erm the level of which experienced advocates advocate at it will actually perhaps make you relax a little, if you see the stand realize that the standard we're expecting you to go to is not, not anywhere near quite as high as that. I'm going to show you an excerpt now from that video. The full video will be available tomorrow morning. [speaker001:] [talk in background] [the following is from a video recording] Please, your worship, this is a most unfortunate case. My client's a young man of thirty six years of age. He appears before the court for the first time for what is essentially a domestic assault on his girlfriend. Perhaps I can give you some of the background to this particular matter. My client and his girlfriend have been together for some six year, they have three children aged six, five and four. They originally lived in the home counties but came up to this area two years ago. Er, my client has been in business at the u his own firm supplying computer software in a specialized market, that is stock control systems for clubs, pubs and restaurants. You can imagine this has meant him working very long hours, one of the other problems he has is he suffers from diabetes. Working long hours also means that er he also gets very tired and, as he now acknowledges, when he's tired he tends to be short-tempered. That then is the background to this particular incident. Because of his working hours he is not giving as much time as he ought perhaps to his family, although he's always tried to ensure that weekends are devoted to his children. When this incident occurred he'd been working on a project in Harlow in Essex setting up another system. This had entailed him working long hours. On the Friday before the incident occurred he had not got home until three o'clock in the morning. He'd then had to drive back down to Harlow again the following morning to sort out further problems with the system. Returning about tea time, he'd then gone out once more to deliver some computer disks for another project he was running in Heanor. He returned home about eight o'clock in the evening, feeling absolutely exhausted, and as he said, all he wanted to do was go to sleep. There had been problems in his relationship with his girlfriend and indeed he'd come to see my firm about six months ago because of the deterioration in that relationship and had general advice then about his legal position should there be a separation. He had not come back after he had been given general advice, and he had what he describes as an uneasy peace in the relationship with his girlfriend. She was insistent in case there should be a separation that he should make some form of, of proper financial arrangement for them, a legally binding agreement. When he returned home very tired on the Saturday evening she turned on him and began nagging him again about the possibility of a separation and that he should make proper commitment to her. Unfortunately, in the course of that discussion, he lost his temper with her, there was a struggle and she suffered some minor bruises and scratches. The police were called, my client was arrested and was detained at the police station from about midnight on the Saturday until eventually he appeared before the court about four o'clock on the Monday afternoon. He'd been in custody there for nearly thirty six hours altogether. He was then released on bail and, as is the custom, the police required conditions of his bail that he should not go back to his girlfriend's address to prevent any possibility of any further offending. He therefore has been living with friends, sleeping on their floors, for the last few weeks, because he's complied explicitly with the conditions of his bail. He's therefore not been able to contact his girlfriend, he's not been able to see his children, er, although he has missed them very much. He now says that he does love his girlfriend, he does want to make that relationship work, and he's very hopeful of making a reconciliation. Madam may feel that having spent so much time in custody for the first offence that he has already suffered sufficient punishment, he's been kept away from his girlfriend and children, and under those circumstances I would urge you Madam to take a lenient course of action, to make him the subject of a conditional discharge. Apart from anything else, that'll ensure the court that he is not tempted to be involved in any similar incident in the future with is girlfriend. And Madam, I'd also ask you to say that to to him to pay compensation for the minor injuries she's suf she's suffered and of course you have to consider that's a point in a case involving assault, would be to add insult to injury, and would not assist the parties in coming to terms with their relationship and hopefully attempting a reconciliation. [video ends] [speaker002:] Right, so is a very experienced advocate. If you can get it as good as that your first time up you must be a natural. Cos if you notice, hardly any moving around, if you think about had a go and think about, the dress is different, the manner is different, the voice is different, very little facial expression even, certainly very little movement, but good eye contact. The whole of the way through that he was looking at the person he was trying to im not staring at them, but good eye contact, so if you're trying to influence somebody there's no point in looking somewhere else. You look at that person. Let's have a look at how deliberately did this one wrong. [speaker001:] [talk in background] [LAUGHTER] [the following is from a video recording] Please your worships, I appear on behalf of Mr Smith this morning. He's a man of er of previous good character. He's er, he's er, twenty er no thirty six years of age, thirty six years of age Madam. He appears before the court for the first time, he's of previous good character and erm and er has never been in trouble with the courts before and er Madam I'm going to suggest to you that this incident was brought about not by any fault of his own, but, but by his girlfriend and her behaviour towards him. I ask you to deal him leniently in that because of that. Madam, my client's thirty six years of age and lives with his girlfriend. He has been working very long hours setting up in business here in er in this area er he gets home late at night and I'm afraid to say that over the last few months he's been nagged continuously by his girlfriend who wants him to try and sort out financial arrangements because the relationship between the two of them's not been very good. He comes home late night, one Saturday night, having been working long hours, not having enough sleep, she nags him and Madam he loses his temper with her and Madam, I am sure that you and I in our relationships [speech obliterated by laughter] same sort of stress in a different situation where, where we've been nagged by our partners and lost our temper and pushed them about, or whatever, and we'd be very surprised I think to find ourselves in, in my client's situation had that happened, because what, what happened here Madam was that erm the girlfriend suffered some minor injuries, nothing to worry about really [speech obliterated by laughter]. I think Madam yeah she complains Madam of er scratches to her arms and bruises to her upper arms where he allegedly grabbed hold of her erm and that really is it, nothing to worry about at all. [speech obliterated by laughter] sort this out sensibly, the police overreact, they arrest him at midnight in the clothes he stands up in, they take him down to the police station, he's held in the police station for about thirty six hours or so, something like that, er instead of being brought before the court straight away and released on bail straight away, they, they keep him in custody where he's never been before, er and Madam he's then released on bail but court imposes silly conditions on him, conditions that he shouldn't go back to his home address, he can't go and see his girlfriend, he can't go and see his children, er, and Madam it seems to be an abuse of the process really of the court to behave in this way. He's therefore been stuck, living on er friends' floors for the last few weeks, not being able to go back to his girlfriend and not being able to see his children, er and Madam that's had an effect on his, on his business as well. So Madam I'm asking you to say that these circumstances, this is the sort of case that should never have come before the court, it should've been sorted out between the parties themselves, with the aid of their solicitors, and that it's only the overreaction of the police in this particular circumstance that brings him before the court here. He's got no previous convictions. Madam, I'm gonna ask you to say in those circumstances that we should give him the maximum discharge. You appreciate that means he has no, effectively no record at all and that seems to me to balance up what's happened here against er against the fact that he's got no previous convictions Madam. I think to impose any other penalty upon him would merely be to exacerbate the situation. He's suffered enough. He's been in custody for two or three, three days, thirty six hours or something like that already, and not been able to see his family, and er got into all sorts of mess because of that Madam. Er er and it seems to me that the court shouldn't be clogged up with cases like this. So I'd ask you Madam to go along with what I'm suggesting and make him the subject of an absolute discharge so that he doesn't have any previous court er any, any convictions or anything like that on his record. And Madam I'd ask you not to make any award for compensation to his girlfriend cos that's just gonna add insult to injury really, isn't it? So Madam I'd ask you to go along with what I'm suggesting, that's an absolute discharge and er [video ends] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] About the only thing he got right was what he called the magistrate, he called her a madam, because when you're appearing before a stipendiary magistrate, one magistrate on their own, it's sir or madam. Yeah, the hands, no structure, did you notice he hardly ever looked at the magistrate, although yeah his voice projection was still good because he's an experienced advocate, but he was talking to the table nearly the whole time. Now if you, if he, as I hope you will do, have a look at the full versions, you can have a look at the shorter excerpt in a moment. If you have a look at the four versions of the videos, I hope what you'll do is have in front of you er the advocacy criteria guide, which we'll speak a bit more about in a moment, and actually look and see well, how is it that these people meet, those things, they don't necessarily but how, how are they persuasive advocates? Okay, let's look at a slightly different style. Again another very experienced advocate. This first one is only an excerpt because I'm then going to contrast it with how not to do it... [the following is from a video recording] [speaker001:] Sorry, I think it's worth noting some of the circumstances giving rise to Mrs Brown er committing the offences which bring her before the court today. So you're dealing with a fifty one year old lady, she's never been in trouble, has no previous convictions, a lady, Sir, who divorced in nineteen seventy six, she brought three children up single-handedly and so she has done all she can, er often at great personal sacrifice, to ensure the best financial stability and the best emotional support for her children. She's perhaps done what most working mothers do, she's put the children first. She had a good working record. Er, Sir, she was working in the care sector as a residential home manager. She held a position of trust and responsibility. That was until about two years ago when unfortunately the home where she worked was closed down and she was made redundant. It was at that stage, Sir, that Mrs Brown made a claim for benefit to support herself and her eleven year old son and so that claim for benefit was a perfectly legitimate one. Sir, in June nineteen ninety two Mrs Brown er successfully obtained temporary work working for the Nottingham Community Hospice as a nursing auxiliary and the work was initially intended to be for a period of about three months. It was on a temporary basis. She wasn't sure as to whether er it would work out. It was er at that stage in her life her two eldest children returned home, her daughter because she'd fallen pregnant and her son because his marriage had unfortunately broken down. [video ends] [speaker002:] Very different style, and you've got to find your own style because it's got to be one that suits you. If you noticed copes with his hands by pushing them behind his back, copes with them by having her papers in her hand. But again, she's making good eye contact, both of them only let their eyes flick down to their notes to remind themselves of the next point they want to make. Now their notes. People's notes [speaking obliterated by noise] to how full they are. What I would advise you to do is not use whole sentences in your notes because then you'll be tempted to read from the notes. So notes that're in true note form. Write down enough that you feel confident that if your mind blanks you've got enough there to remind you what you want to say. But then use some method of highlighting key words or underlining or sub- heading that pe you can just flick your eyes to and remind you very quickly of what you're going to say. gave a brief history, brief outline of the case. She did then, did go on and develop her argument more. But let's contrast that with when did it deliberately wrong... [the following is from a video recording] [speaker001:] Sir, very very serious charge and I'm sure that you'll be thinking about sending her er to prison today. I mean, she's told you about her three children but er I suppose she should've thought of that, shouldn't she, before she signed on? Still, her children are quite young and erm and I, I think she's sorry for what she's done. Erm, erm, I have got a note of their ages somewhere. Er, er, it doesn't matter about that but there are three young children. Er, it is an awful lot of money of course. How much is it, two thousand pounds, well she's offered to pay it back at two pounds a week and er it's gonna take a long time, isn't it, Sir, for her to pay it back? But er she does want to pay it back, she does want to pay it back, and er well she wants to pay it back, erm, if you could start it this time next year she'd be er she would be grateful for that. Er, she is sorry, she's sorry that she's committed er she committed the offence. Er, and I don't think she's been in trouble before. Mrs White, have you been in trouble before? No, the culprit has not been er in trouble before. Erm, yeah,sh I know you'll be thinking about sending her to prison today but if you could think of anything else that erm, I don't know, a suspended sentence or something like that, then obviously she'd, she'd be really grateful for that, wouldn't you, Mrs, yeah [laughter obliterated speech] erm, er, Mrs White is there anything else you want me to say? Er, well, I think that's it for Mrs White then. [video ends] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay, so when you come to look at these videos, okay, slightly exaggerated but if you go down to court, and you might like to go down to the hall or somewhere locally, you'll actually find that there are advocates who do what did deliberately wrong and what did deliberately wrong. Perhaps not quite as exaggerated but v very similar. And wh because one of the things that they were deliberately doing as if they were unprepared. Sorry if some of you are still a bit cold but I thought the heater had been turned on, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. Erm, if you're prepared you haven't got to fumble with your notes, the ums and aahs are less, the facts flow, you call your client the right name, and you can concentrate on the presentation. The one that, when y if you look at those, look at, don't just concentrate on the ones which are right, concentrate on the ones that were wrong too and say, why are they wrong? Yeah, they're amusing and those sort of things and obviously they're deliberately wrong, but have a look and see why, what is it because they do contain errors that are commonly made day after day in courts. Right, if you could have a look for a moment at your criteria guide. Let's just look at what we're expected to do. This is what we'll use at every stage of the advocacy exercises. It'll be used for the bail, it'll be used for the mitigation, and it will be used for your assessment. Dirty word, assessment, but we'll come back to that in a minute. Right. A few typing errors, please ignore those. I haven I haven't developed a new word at number six, that is overall presents her argument in a confident and persuasive manner. Right, let's just think about these. Selects relevant facts. So you select from the information you're given the facts that are relevant to the application you're making that day, whether it be bail or whether it be a plea in mitigation. What's relevant to your application? What are you asking the court to do? What are you trying to persuade them to do? If it's bail, you're trying to get your client released, possibly with conditions. If it's plea in mitigation, you're tr remember your client has been convicted at that point. I've had many students who've done this in front of me who've started off by saying, my client is not a criminal. He's just been convicted. So, erm, remember what it is you're trying to achieve. With plea in mitigation, you're trying to minimize the sentence, within realistic boundaries. Argument is concise and to the point. One of the other things about those two that were wrong was that they rambled, they were all over the place, there was no conciseness, no clarity to them. Main points are effective. Again, those two that were wrong were all over the place and not an effective sequence. Maintains good eye contact. Both the ones where they did it right, they maintained good eye contact with the person they were trying to persuade. They didn't stare at them but had good eye contact. You're doing it wrong if you're not looking at the person that you're trying to persuade. Speaks clearly. You can do all this beautifully, but if you can't be heard it's a waste of time. It doesn't mean you've got to, should, doesn't mean you've got to have a loud voice, it just means you've got to speak, speak clearly and slowly enough to be clear. You know yourself whether you tend to go quickly or whatever. Practise these things. Actually in the next few days stand up at home, speak it, say it, record it if you want to. See what you sound like. But speak, when you start to speak, if you know that when you're nervous that you will ramble on, you'll go quickly, remember that, so that as you start remember to slow down. If you can't slow down, then deliberately pause so that the person who's listening to you has an opportunity to mentally catch up on what you're saying. So if your voice is quick, make sure you put in pauses, or find some other method of coping with it in that way. Overall is confident and persuasive. You can be as nervous as anything inside, if what you're saying comes over confidently and persuasively, that's what matters. So good preparation. All advocates. The one thing that really marks them out is good preparation, so that when they stand up in court they haven't got to think much about the content cos it's at their finger tips, they know it, they know Mrs Brown's age, they know how many children she's got, they haven't got to think about it. They just concentrate on presenting that information. Right, let's summarize where we've got to, and what you're going to be doing. When you're preparing, prepare well. The relevant law you will need to know, and the relevant law you will find in the manual you've got, you won't need to look anywhere other than the manuals, it's all going to be in there. So you won't need to be searching through anywhere else. Remember, when you're given your fact scenarios, to take out of those scenarios the information that you think is relevant and structure it. If you simply regurgitate word for word what's in the fact scenario, that's not going to be persuasive. You need to structure it in a way that fits in with the argument that you're go the line of argument you're going to be putting before the magistrate. And develop a persuasive argument. Practise out loud. Practise it standing up. Practise in front of a mirror. But if you practise it sitting down, your voice'll be very different, the speed of your voice will be different, and if you don't practise it out loud you won't be able to get any idea of whether it's going to take three minutes or not. The only way to really gauge how long a pr presentation will take when you say it out loud, is to practise it out loud. Because you will be kept strictly to time. You've got three minutes, a few seconds over, and then you'll be asked to stop. It can be shorter than three minutes. Don't worry if it's shorter. Most people, when they practise out loud, speak more slowly. They're in a relaxed situation in their own home. Stand them up in front of somebody, tutor, and they'll speak more quickly. If you're three minutes at home, then you're fine, most likely that will mean you're up slightly under the three minutes when you do it before your tutor. But that's the way to get your guide, that's the way to practise. And concentrate on those points that are in the advocacy criteria guide in making your preparations. You'll all be given the instructions for the small group sessions for bail today. If you've got any questions, you can ask your tutor then, or you can come and see me. Are there any questions at this stage? Any points that you, you immediately know you want to ask? No. Right. Thank you all very much.

[James Whale:] Enjoy that? Oh good good [telephone number drone in background] good I enjoyed that. Welcome to the programme. Whale is on the wireless, here in the heart of Britain's largest county, to wreck havoc, or to be gentle, sweet and loving. Any way if you want to talk, you can pick up the phone, you can ring me now, it's.. We want to talk first of all about the North Yorkshire M Ps, we have t We're on to Michael as I speak, and his secretary has been very very charming, very helpful, very nice. She has tried to get hold of him. The others are unobtainable, er but I think what we should do because of course you are there to tell them whether or not you think they should be going for er twice the rate of inflation pay rise. These are guys who earn a minimum of thirty one thousand pounds erm if they don't have any companies sponsoring them, a lot of them have companies sponsoring them. They get free travel. Er they don't do so badly at all, they get free er They get allowance for their accommodation in London, Okay? So they're not out of pocket, they don't have to keep two homes going. And I I really don't think they have any business without consulting you and me, as the peoples that they represent, because I'm I'm a voter in North Yorkshire too, so I don't think they have any business actually doing this without consulting us first of all. Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'll look in the other r Excuse me while I look in the other room. Er all the MPs for North Yorkshire have have agreed for this haven't they? We d Okay we don't know, we want to ask them we w So if you are an MP in North Yorkshire and er you think I'm giving you a hard time and I know you sneakily listen to this programme, I know you listen. Er I suggest you pick up the phone and you give us a call now on, alright? Er and I say I want to come on the on the phone and I want to talk to James, I want to put him straight, I tell him that we're not doing this and I want to tell him that we actually erm know that er the people will be concerned about us giving ourselves a huge pay rise. If you have any views on whether MPs should be doing that or not, give us a call as well. you know the number. [telephone number drone in background] I keep forgetting it. I'm also told that we'll have no problems with the phone calls this week. Have we We have no problems with the pho that's all been fixed. We have a new phone system, so you can r If you want to test it out you might as well just give me a ring and come on the air to begin with. [sigh] And if you don't want to talk about that we'll talk about something else. You know something that erm appeals to you. But in the first instance, and there the calls are coming in, I would like to hear about your views on MPs in North Yorkshire voting themselves a double the rate of inflation pay rise. If you have any views pick up the phone and call me now. [music] all sort of Islamic and er fundamentalist and Matthew and son. Radio York, that's where you're tuned, the B B C station for North Yorkshire and er James Whale is here on the wireless with you bright and e I'm amazed I can get up after being up so late on a Friday night, I'm amazed I can be in here this early on a Friday, and somebody said [yawning] well it is twelve o'clock []. You're you're right. Before we go to the calls, one other thing that you may be interested in talking about. I don't know er why we're not more continually erm [sigh] more on the case as far as our members of parliament are concerned because remember they're there for our benefit and front page of the Daily Mirror this morning. Women deserve rape says M P's wife. Front page. This is er a fairly topical issue at the moment. [reading] Many women deserve to be raped, a Tory M P's wife said yesterday. Sir Nicholas Fairburn's wife, Sam, backed her husband's astonishing views that there is no such crime as rape. [] I want you to take that in, I'm pausing for a little I want you to take it in. [reading] It may sound nasty but a man would never look at some of those women she said, a lot of women deserved to be raped. It's not fair on a man if a women undresses and then changes her mind at the last minute. [] What sort of hole did these two crawl out of? What sort of people This is a man who dresses up remember, in very strange scotch plaid trousers and jackets. And he and his wife together are saying a women deserves to be raped. Personally I don't care at what stage of sexual intercourse you're at, if a women says I want to stop now, then you stop now and that's it. If you have any view If you've read the front page of the Daily Mirror today, and if you are as angry about it as me, I'd be interested in hearing for you. Let's go to our first call and erm that's good. I'm glad you came in there, cos I was merrily talking away wasn't I? [Danny:] You were. [James Whale:] Yes I was, I wasn't even looking at the [LAUGHTER] screen []. Let's go to erm Margaret, I think. [Danny:] Mr [James Whale:] Margaret what?... What did you say then? Oh Mr. O Oh right Mr. Oh about Margaret Thatcher. In this screen, I'm glad to say that public opinion you see can shift things. They're going to the B B C engineers who put this screen in the top of the ceiling, which makes it almost impossible to read, are now going to move it. But of course that does keep them in a job. Right Mr. [static and beeping] Erm I see. We New phone thing and not working terribly well. Er Mr hello. [Douglas:] Hello. [James Whale:] Sorry about that. [Douglas:] That's alright. [James Whale:] Got to learn where the knobs go in this place. [Douglas:] Yeah. [James Whale:] What can I do for you? [Douglas:] Well I wan I tried for two days to talk about Lady Thatcher. [James Whale:] What do you mean you tried for two days? [Douglas:] Well I tried at quarter to nine the day that there there is talking about it and er I wasn't allowed on the phone. [James Whale:] Why wouldn't you be allowed on the phone? [Douglas:] Pardon? [James Whale:] Why would you not be allowed on the phone. [Douglas:] You tell me [James Whale:] I don't know, I wasn't here. Are you one of those that upsets the people, are you cleverer than most broadcasters, that really [Douglas:] Oh no I'm not clever at all. [James Whale:] Oh yes you are. [Douglas:] I [James Whale:] You managed to operate the phone, course you're clever. [Douglas:] Oh okay then. [James Whale:] Anyway, Mr. [Douglas:] Yeah? What? [James Whale:] Mr? [Douglas:] Yes. [James Whale:] Can you hear me? [Douglas:] Yes. [James Whale:] Okay, right, what did you want to say? [Douglas:] Well I wanted to talk about Lady Thatcher. Do you want me to tell you what I want to talk about? [James Whale:] Well I I don't mind one way or the other. I mean as long as you understand the laws of slander and liable? [Douglas:] Yeah well. Okay. Well what I wanted to talk about is, when Lady Th Thatcher first came into power [James Whale:] Could could you refer to her as Mrs Thatcher, cos I'm not really into all these titles, they annoy me. [Douglas:] Mrs Thatcher. [James Whale:] That's better, yeah. [Douglas:] When Mrs Thatcher first came into power, she got hold of the pound note, held it up and tore it in half and then tore it into a quarter, and she said this is what the pound's worth under the Labour government. [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] N now then, the other thing is when Dennis Healey went to the monetary system to ask for a couple of million pounds, he was shout down shouted down, but [James Whale:] I don't think any MP has ever been to the monetary system to ask for a couple of million pounds, actually. What's your first name? [Douglas:] No Douglas. [James Whale:] Is it? [Douglas:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Oh you don't mind if I call you Douglas do you? [Douglas:] banks Junior. [James Whale:] I beg your pardon? [Douglas:] Douglas N Fairbanks Junior. [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] Oh Right. [] Er when thy come to give you your lunch let me know and I'll let you off. Er right, go on. [Douglas:] Well er the thing about it is, what makes me d what er makes me When Lady Thatcher came out of power [James Whale:] Yeah. [Douglas:] she never said how much the pound was worth, well I I don't think it would cover five pence piece. [James Whale:] Have you been er worrying about Margaret Thatcher tearing a pound note up for the last twelve thirteen years? [Douglas:] I ain't been worried at all, [James Whale:] O [Douglas:] I don't do is worry. [James Whale:] Oh you don't? [Douglas:] No. [James Whale:] Oh. And they wouldn't let you on? You've Radio York all week, they must have been over er over overwhelmed for callers I imagine this week, I would have thought you would have been a boon to anybody's talk show. [Douglas:] For two days I wasn't allowed on the show, and they What they said was there was too many other people on before hand. [James Whale:] Yeah. They they probably though that your personality was so special that it would it would actually have made everybody else look rather stupid. [Douglas:] No I think what it was was a load of bullshit they give me. [James Whale:] Oh they didn't, that's an awful American word. You can't say Bullshit on the road On the radio. [Douglas:] Can't you? [James Whale:] No. [Douglas:] Oh. [James Whale:] Not in a farming community like North Yorkshire, people get very tense about it. [Douglas:] Oh jolly good. [James Whale:] Yeah. Anyway Douglas it's time for you to go and have your next injection isn't it? [Douglas:] Pardon? [James Whale:] Thank you, bye. Er time for us to move on and talk to er Sam er who is there somewhere. Now Sam bear with me. Hello Sam?... Er you're not on that one. Now Danny er set up these lin Now let Hang on just one minute, what Twenty two. Would you say red is Oh red is twenty one isn't it? Okay let me put tat onto twenty one. Hello Sam. [Sam:] Hi. [James Whale:] Hi. I've got it now, it's okay Danny. I've I've sussed it, alright? [Danny:] Okay. [James Whale:] All I ask i Sorry Dan Er s sorry er erm er Sam. [Sam:] Sam, that's right. [James Whale:] Fine you hang on there. Sorry Dan? [Danny:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Three letter words is very difficult for me to keep [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Er see if you can get me a date. There's a In in the weekend review with the Daily Mail today, Bonny Langford is sitting there saying all I want to be is a women, and not thought of as a little girl. [Sam:] Bully for her. [James Whale:] And er she's a lovely Don't you like her Sam? [Sam:] Oh yes. [James Whale:] Yeah, thank you very much indeed Sam. [Sam:] I like everyone me. [James Whale:] Do you? [Sam:] Yeah. [James Whale:] then we're not going to have much to talk about then. [Sam:] Oh yes we are. [James Whale:] Okay. [Sam:] Yes. [James Whale:] Go on. [Sam:] Well it's about the MPs and the wages, [James Whale:] Mhm. [Sam:] salaries. I object most strongly. I'm a pensioner, and er I have to exist on a very very low [James Whale:] Who is your M P? [Sam:] My MP is er [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] Michael Allison. [James Whale:] Michael Allison. Well we're trying to get Michael Allison on the phone and he may well be one who doesn't agree with this. [Sam:] I don't think he will, but he's the MP for Selby, he's a conservative M P, but I don't care what politics they I don't know about what party they they support [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] they shouldn't be taking this r wage r this wage increase. [James Whale:] Wh what Well no I agree. And not all the MPs are voting for this by the way. [Sam:] Oh well I'm very pleased about [James Whale:] Not all the the MPs are voting for this because a lot of people can't have work, let alone have a pay increase. [Sam:] You're right. now then, I'm retired. [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] I'm nearly seventy, er my pension, will be going up by a pound and odd, I'm not right sure how much. That'll next April. [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] Er at present I get sixty one pound a week old age pension, I've a works pension of about twenty some pound a week, so that I live on eighty pound a week. And I'd like to give a challenge to either er Michael Allison or any of the other MPs to come and live in my little bungalow for And exist on that rate for a week. [James Whale:] Now wasn't it er Matthew Paris when he was still an M P, he's journalist but Gone back to being a journalist now. Matthew Paris actually tried to do that. [Sam:] He went up Yes, and he couldn't manage could he? [James Whale:] He couldn't manage it and he said that he felt that he had to stop being an MP er for several reasons, one of them was that he thought most MPs like he agreed he was at certain times, were out of touch. [Sam:] That's right, well I feel sure they are. I mean er now they talking about putting V A T on fuel, [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] er I have er storage central heating and I can't afford to put them on. I've got them on in one room, er I put them on a little bit [James Whale:] Mm. If every pensioner I have to I I don't want to I mean I a I don't want people to think I'm m m too much of an anarchist. [Sam:] No. [James Whale:] But surely if if every pensioner said that's it we can't afford to pay this and didn't pay. I wonder what would happen, they couldn't put everybody it prison for non payment could they? [Sam:] I don't know, they couldn't. I though that about the poll tax anyhow. I mean I payed it obviously because you If you live you live in er you live in the land you've got to pl go by the law. [James Whale:] Exactly and if you don't pay it, and there are a few silly old so and sos not paying it at the moment, I mean the rest of us have had to pa [Sam:] Er well that's another thing you see we have to pay it [James Whale:] Exactly. [Sam:] the extra for them, which is ridiculous you know. I and I'm not a I'm not a moaner, I try to be I'm a Christian and I try to be a Chris Christian spirit to everyone. [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] you know, and I give everyone that [James Whale:] Okay Sam one one [Sam:] of the doubt. [James Whale:] Just before you go, we're going to try and get Michael Allison on. [Sam:] G [James Whale:] Er he's in London at the moment, he's not at He should be up here, I don't know what he's doing in London on a Saturday morning, he's supposed to be up here having a surgery somewhere. What do you think about Halloween by the way? [Sam:] Halloween? [James Whale:] Yeah. [Sam:] Well [James Whale:] As a Christian, you said you were a Christian, Halloween is er the celebrating the devil, [Sam:] Yeah. [James Whale:] and er [Sam:] celebrate the devil. No we don't I we don't I my my faith we don't celebrate the devil, we don't cross our fingers, we don't say er you know anything about luck or anything like that b [James Whale:] Oh don't you? [Sam:] the devil. Er no. [James Whale:] I'm always crossing my fingers, I'll have to be careful about that. [Sam:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] Well that's it. I mean I I I s I have to I say it myself occasionally, I stop very quickly because I realize that [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] it isn't it isn't my religion, we don't we don't celebrate anything er I mean I know Christmas o obviously there's a lot of pagan things in Christmas. [James Whale:] Well apparently black magic is on the increase in North Yorkshire. [Sam:] Is Well I was I'm trying to think where I was I was at Blackpool, er I went to Blackpool for two days, I went with some friends. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Sam:] Er and then they'll be saying how can you afford to go to Blackpool? Why I I I can because I I saved a little bit, and I'm I h I had to keep going on my savings. [James Whale:] Yeah but er has Blackpool got anything to do with black magic? [Sam:] Yes it has. They were on in the funfairs on the prom [James Whale:] Yeah. [Sam:] and on er on the piers. There were cassettes and they dealt entirely with occult. With [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] occult and with black magic and that kind of thing. [James Whale:] Okay Sam, thank you for your call. Don't cross your fingers, don't look at any black cats, don't run under a ladder. If er I'm being quite serious actually now. Another thing we're going to talk to somebody from the N S P C C who's coming in in a few moments to talk about Halloween trick or treating and stuff like that. Because er most of the year we tell our kids not to talk to strangers, and then [LAUGHTER] one day a year [] you send the little so and sos out to knock on peoples doors to ask for money er and sweets and things like that. I mean are we completely loopy? Or, as some people say, does the devil have all the best tunes. Melanie are you there? Erm I tell you what Melanie, you will be in uno momento. Okay Melanie? Hi. [Melanie:] Hi. [James Whale:] Come closer. [Melanie:] Is that better? [James Whale:] Much closer. [Melanie:] Much close [James Whale:] Ooh that's lovely. [Melanie:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] So early in the morning. [Melanie:] Very early. [James Whale:] Oh it's lunchtime for most people isn't it? I'm just thinking of myself really. [Melanie:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Melanie, where are you? [Melanie:] I'm in car park at the moment. [James Whale:] Are you really? [Melanie:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Oh I went past there not so long ago and that radio station that's got no listeners in Yorkshire has a huge advertising thing there. [Melanie:] yeah, I don't know why. [James Whale:] No, I can't imagine why, listening to it, it sounds like everybody working on is about twelve, doesn't it? [Melanie:] That's right, yeah. [James Whale:] Yeah, I'm going to ring them up in a moment and tell them I object to some of the advertisements, particularly for drugs that they're advertising. [Melanie:] No, well I don't listen to it, so I wouldn't know. [James Whale:] Good girl. You don't even know what I'm talking about. [Melanie:] No. [James Whale:] No. I haven't a clue either. Er anyway Did you buy anything nice? [Melanie:] No, I haven't been into York yet, I'm on my way, I live near Harrogate. [James Whale:] Oh I see, you came in with me this morning. [Melanie:] That's right. [James Whale:] Yes. Don't you find that ro Don't you find the mess they're making on the A one there, over near Knaresborough, annoying? [Melanie:] Absolutely terrible yeah. And I've already had one ac car accident on the A fifty nine so I don't like that road either. [James Whale:] You don't? [Melanie:] No. [James Whale:] That is a pig of a road, I must admit, I don't know why they don't make it into a dual carriage way. [Melanie:] Mm. [James Whale:] It would only take a couple of houses to be knocked down and they could make it into a dual carriage way. [Melanie:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] As long as it's not my house. [James Whale:] Why? Is yours right on the A fifty nine. [Melanie:] No, it's [James Whale:] Alright so you're in the car park of [shop]? [Melanie:] I am yeah. [James Whale:] On the mobile phone. [Melanie:] Yes. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Melanie:] And I'm a civil servant in York. [James Whale:] And how come civil servants have mobile phones in their cars? [Melanie:] Because I do a lot of travelling on my own [James Whale:] Mm. [Melanie:] as you know a lot of lone lady travellers have [James Whale:] [cough] [Melanie:] aren't very safe. So [James Whale:] Yeah. [Melanie:] it's a small expense which I think's worth it. Cos I can travel three hundred miles on my own at night so you know it just gives me a bit of safeguard. [James Whale:] Mhm. Hang on just one moment, can you Melanie? [Melanie:] Yes [James Whale:] I I just appealing for MPs and I know you have the radio on just to see if I'm being rude about you, and of course I never am because I'm a I'm a nice person. Er I would like an M P, and there are a number of North Yorkshire M Ps, how many? About erm eight I think. Seven seven seven. About Let me just w Yes seven. there are seven North Yorkshire M Ps. Er I'd just like one to call up and tell me about their pay. [Melanie:] Mm. [James Whale:] You know the number guys. Any any female North Yorkshire M Ps? No. Not one. This is such a male chauvinist county this isn't it? North Yorkshire. It needs a good kick up the bum. Sorry anyway. Back to Melanie, who is a civil servant. [Melanie:] Working in York. [James Whale:] Working in York. [Melanie:] And probably getting less than a third of the pay of most MPs round here. And we've been told that we'll only get between a nought and one point five percent increase at the most. Which is what we were given last year. [James Whale:] So how do you feel? [Melanie:] Not very happy. Because we've also been told we're probably going to lose our jobs in a couple of years unless we're prepared to move to Glasgow. [James Whale:] And so why have the MPs taken it upon themselves now, remembering of course as I mentioned early, that they are on a minimum of thirty one thousand pounds a year. they have free travel on the trains, wherever they like to go, they have secretarial allowances, and some of them use their wives as their secretaries. And they allowances, I think, up to another ten or eleven thousand a year for accommodation in London. [Melanie:] Yeah, well you tell me. Or ask one of them to tell me, because it's not fair. [James Whale:] Well they won't ring in, Melanie, at the moment and er we're r ringing round their homes and trying to trying to get them out of their beds and things, but they're being a little elusive. [Melanie:] I'm not surprised, they're probably embarrassed. [James Whale:] Mm. Well listen, if they do come on w And we've got your mobile number, we'll ring you back if we find them. [Melanie:] Certainly, yes. [James Whale:] And if you're in the middle of a supermarket, you can talk to them right in the middle of a supermarket. [Melanie:] I'm on my way to M F I. [James Whale:] Are you? [Melanie:] Yeah, to give them some stick, so [James Whale:] Oh really? [Melanie:] Certainly, we got a bookcase and there was [James Whale:] I see. [Melanie:] and it's taken about three weeks to get hold of it so I'm going to see if it's ready. [James Whale:] They er They're they're such lovely people at er M F I. They would absolutely delighted to speak to you, and d I'll tell you what to do Melanie. [Melanie:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Tell them you're a friend of mine. [Melanie:] Alright then. [James Whale:] Okay. [Melanie:] I'll do that. [James Whale:] See you later. [Melanie:] Speak to you later bye bye. [James Whale:] Bye. Okay. If you've got a phone, whether it's in your car, in your house, at the bottom of your garden, you can pick it up and give me a ring on. And er I do this bit now don't I? I do I do er er this is radio Do I do a time check. I'm going to do a time check. It's twenty six minutes, alright? Twenty six minutes past twelve. [music, jingle] And then I go, B B C radio York, the station that's first for travel. And then you take it away, don't you? Go on. [Danny:] That's right. Good afternoon James. Starting off on the A one between Catterick and Leaming Bar, the weekend contraflow's in operation at the moment. All traffics using the south bound carriage way, there are delays at the moment of four miles on the south bound approach, also fairly busy north bound through those road works at the moment. Some good news on the A one, the earlier abnormal loads which were heading southbound and causing some quite lengthy delays near to Boroughbridge, they're now parked up near to Wetherby so they're not causing too many problems at the moment. At Stockton on Forest, Stockton Lane Bridge is closed this weekend for resurfacing, that doesn't reopen until six o'clock on Monday morning. the M sixty two in west Yorkshire near junction twenty nine, the loft house interchange, there are various roadworks and lane restrictions on the slip roads there, and that's causing traffic to be slow moving around that junction at the moment. Finally, back in North Yorkshire on the A one six eight, between Dishforth and Thirsk, the contraflow continues between the A one and the A nineteen. Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. [James Whale:] Thank you very much indeed Danny. And looking at the traffic on the railways, it looks to me as if it's all absolutely wonderful, hunkydory and everything else, so er unless you're er er bl s No no no no all the trains right up to the er nine minutes past one Harrogate train er, and the four minutes past one Plymouth train, all seem to be bang on train. And of course as they say, if they're not, we will let you know. Alright [telephone number drone in background] Yeah. Yeah you can call us now. M Ps' pay or anything you feel about Halloween. Should we be celebrating Halloween or not. If you have a view gives us a ring. [telephone number drone in background] [music] Prince and er You You You You You. B B C radio York and the Whale show until two this afternoon. And we'll be talking to the N S P C C in a few moments. Just er er sort We're going to keep this running through the show. I really do I wish to have an MP here on the phone line and talk about this er proposed pay rise. They cannot do this again without expecting us to cause trouble. Cos I haven't said that my MP can have a pay rise, and as I vote for my M P, and you vote for your M P, they have to ask us first as far as I'm concerned. Alf, hello. [Alf:] Hello there. [James Whale:] Yes Alf. [Alf:] Good afternoon to you. [James Whale:] Hi. [Alf:] Er I just thought perhaps this morning, why they're not answering you is erm they usually have surgeries on a Saturday morning. [James Whale:] Er they have phones, We're trying their surgeries and a number of them are still in London and a number of them er [Alf:] Er not replying. [James Whale:] No. I mean they won't you see. The thing the thing about MPs is they they think erm You have to be fairly careful because I I spend quite a lot of time interviewing MPs and I I think that er er they're quite interesting some of the time to talk to. but if they get the upper hand, and if they think they can start er dictating, then they will, alright? [Alf:] Yeah. [James Whale:] And you remember that they're in no position to dictate because they're there for you and me. [Alf:] That's right, they're elected by us. [James Whale:] Of course they are. Now some people may say that thirty one thousand pounds isn't a great deal of money. And and and in the sort of business that a lot of M Ps, or people that become M Ps, and the sort of Mm er way they have to l It may not be a lot of money, and maybe they are entitled to some more. But I don't think they can go voting themselves more money whilst the rest of us have trouble in finding work. [Alf:] Yes, I agree with [James Whale:] And they're voting to cut back benefits, so it seems that they perhaps have misjudged. And if they are able to misjudge on on this particular issue, then they are likely to misjudge on other issues, so er we'll have a chat with them and we'll find them out what they think and er what they say. [Alf:] Okay yeah. [James Whale:] Erm what are you doing with my headphones? Are you unplugging those? [speaker003:] No. [James Whale:] Are you sure? okay, sorry about that Alf. [Alf:] Alright, no problem. [James Whale:] Er you you're sort of chatting away and people come in and they're all over the place, so er [Alf:] station where you are then? [James Whale:] I know it's like it's like like the train station, isn't it? In York really. Er so you're not Are you bothered one way or the other, or not? [Alf:] Erm. [James Whale:] You didn't sound too bothered to me. [Alf:] No I suppose not in a sense, but there again we should be because like you've just explained, why should they give themselves a [James Whale:] Mm. [Alf:] without consulting us first. [James Whale:] Okay. Well hopefully we're tr we're chasing around Michael Allison at the moment. [Alf:] Oh right. [James Whale:] Am amongst other people, so we'll see w we can get him on. [Alf:] Well I think he's been on before and he's quite a decent chap, I think. [James Whale:] Is he? I've never met Michael Allison so er I'm sure you're absolutely right, I shall er wait and find out. Thank you Alf. [Alf:] u Bye. [James Whale:] Bye bye. Er I also want to find the person who's responsible for the traffic flow in the centre of York, because I think they should be resigning. I'm not sure why er York is I mean y There are worse traffic jams in York than there are in the west end of London at the moment. So whoever it is who's er sorted that out, perhaps they will come here before me and er and account for themselves. [telephone number drone in background] I was going to do that. O nine Yeah. Right, thank you. Okay res that's the Yeah ring that number, that's the number to ring. Now the N S P C C has er warned us of possible Halloween danger and er David I I missed your name there David so you'll have to remind me what your name is. [David:] Good morning James. [James Whale:] David isn't it? [David:] David I'm [James Whale:] Yeah. [David:] I'm protection manager at the local N S P C C child protection team. [James Whale:] And I've just found your microphone as well, which is quite [David:] Mhm. [James Whale:] You'll have to bear with me David, I think you're only the second person I've ever had, if you'll excuse the expression, in this studio. So you're on there. Trick or treat, which is an American idea, which seems to have come er come over here over the past, ooh I don't know, five tens years hasn't it really? [David:] I was I was wondering too, myself, as I was travelling here where where it actually came from because er I don't remember as a child, myself, doing something like this. [James Whale:] No but we do W we we've always er celebrated Guy Fawkes for some strange reason, which seems [David:] Yeah. [James Whale:] to be a very unusual bit of history to celebrate. [David:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Particularly when it went wrong and after all the man was purely a terrorist. But why do we I mean why do we encourage kids to go out like this at the moment. I mean there were four or five knocking on door of er a friend of mine the other day, who said y They were they were under the age of ten. [David:] Yeah. Yeah. I can't answer your question about why we encourage them to go out. We As you see from our press releases, certainly not encouraging children to go out [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] and er if they do, what we're hoping to do by this particular campaign is to warn parents and carers of the of some of the dangers of doing that. But I think trick or treat itself, maybe has got a bit perhaps distorted from what one might imagine the American idea originally was. [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] Perhaps in local communities where children might actually have Their trick might have been something entertaining erm and the treat itself might have been something like erm you know American [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] candy or something like that. [James Whale:] Yeah, but I mean we're getting away [David:] Wha [James Whale:] from it, the things is [David:] And that's right, but what we've got now is children going around knocking doors, perhaps knocking on elderly peoples doors [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] certainly knocking on strangers doors, and er demanding Almost demanding money erm or they'll do something perhaps [LAUGHTER] quite unpleasant to someone []. And that's I can't help thinking that's really got quite some way away from the original idea. [James Whale:] when the kids get s thumped er we all get we all c Are your headphones alright there? Okay. Er it's seems to me really I'm just scanning your your press release now, for the sake of the children. [David:] Mm. [James Whale:] Er N S P C C warns of possible Halloween dangers. I would have though Halloween was a danger cos it really is First of all it's a satanic er celebration, that's everybody seems to think it's great, we'll dress up as er as witches and demons and things like that. that'll be fine. And nobody Even the church I mean I know the church can't agree on anything at the moment, we're sitting here just down the road of course, the general synod of the church of whatsit and the archbishop of thingummybob is sitting there over their muesli and cornflakes I should imagine at the moment, or a late brunch, erm n not saying anything. I haven't seen one church official saying that Halloween should be scrapped and we shouldn't be celebrating it, or maybe the churches ought to be er putting forward some idea of their own. [David:] No, they've obviously got other things on their plates, at the moment, haven't they, that they perhaps feel is more important [James Whale:] And I don't see y you actually saying that er perhaps this is er You know this is th th th the sort of the fun of the devil, here. [David:] Mm. You mentioned earlier on that that perhaps er like with Guy Fawkes, there's a lot of things that come from the past, from our history and we lose Perhaps we lose a bit of sight about where they've come from. And many of those things do have dangers attached to them but they also have, potentially, a bit of f er er fun attached to [James Whale:] Really? I don't see any fun in this David, [David:] Mm. [James Whale:] I'm very sorry, I don't I can't understand what what [David:] Well. [James Whale:] pretending to be the devil [David:] Okay if you let [James Whale:] is going to do. [David:] let me finish what I was going to say. [James Whale:] Go on then. [David:] Erm I think what the N S P C C by by bringing out this particular information to help parents and carers with trick or treat, is wanting to do is is to make sure that the fun that children are wanting to have doesn't actually go badly wrong. Erm and er that it's maybe very important at a time like this when children are potentially going and and knocking on stranger's doors to be particularly careful so what we've done is is is put together a simple guide for parents and carers erm which suggests that er they shouldn't just let their children go off for the evening. Erm that they should know where they're going to go. That ideally they should actually be doing this with just family or friends, erm or or or adults that they actually know. [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] Not not this going off. But if they're gonna go off they ought to be telling their parents where they're going to go. Erm and and when they're going to be back. Erm we're certainly very keen indeed that that young children aren't just allowed to go off er in ones or twos. That th that if they're going to go they go with older children or or adults, there's no reason why [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] they can't actually do this, if they're going to do it and we're certainly not encouraging them to do it, but if they're going to do it then there's no reason why they couldn't do it with adults. [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] But they certainly shouldn't be encouraged to go into strangers' houses and we'd also ask er people who perhaps do have children knocking on their door not to invite them in either. Erm [James Whale:] The last flipping thing I do, invite them in. [David:] Yeah. [James Whale:] I I actually have a bucket of cold water just behind the door and I couldn't care what age they are, whack. [David:] Right, fine well maybe you ought to be announcing where you live James at the end of this so [James Whale:] No thank you. [David:] so it can be avoided by any children [James Whale:] No thank you. It's the only fun I have. [David:] [LAUGHTER] It's a serious point, it's a serious point because some people erm perhaps do like to [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] respond positively to children so oh yes yes come in hold on [James Whale:] Yeah. [David:] a minute I'll see if I can get you something [James Whale:] Well they're stupid. [David:] and of course [James Whale:] I mean they're absolutely stupid I had [David:] Yeah [James Whale:] this trouble once with a with a young child and er I told this this this person er granny figure if you like, don't talk to those children I've told them not to they went on and on and on. I mean you can't have it both ways [David:] No. [James Whale:] you know, people have got to realize that this day and age er children are taught not to talk to strangers [David:] Yeah. [James Whale:] and however genteel that stranger maybe it's actually giving the children the wrong signals. [David:] Yeah yeah that's right, and the next door they th the next door they kno knock on there might perhaps be someone who perhaps [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] does have some idea in mind that's going to cause harm to the child and the child innocently goes in. [James Whale:] So if you're a parent and you're allowing your kids to go out on er trick or treat night or Halloween, then you don't deserve to have children. [David:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] David didn't say that, I said that you know, lets not mix our words nice and mealy-mouthed about it. If you allow your young children particularly children under the age of ten out you are a fool. [David:] It might be interesting to actually If if the paren if the children are insisting, cos children put a lot of parents er a lot of pressure on their parents. Oh everybody does this, I want to go out too I want to go out. If if parents let [James Whale:] Well if you can't control your children you shouldn't flipping well have them. [David:] If parents allowed their children to go out last year, what about going out with them this year? How how about that as a very practical suggestion or as you say perhaps finding [James Whale:] Yeah. [David:] something else to do with them instead. [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Okay David, thanks very much indeed for your time and for talking to us today but er if you have a view on that you might like to give us a call. Er I should say that I'm only saying this because it's written in front of me, some churches apparently in York are putting on alternative festivities er I don't think they're trying very hard because I haven't heard of any and I certainly don't move around the place, hear of any. Others are holding traditional barn dances and parties etc. That will be as much as fun as er Sunday school I expect and probably just as well attended. So if you have any views on Halloween, trick or treating, and er remember what David and the N S P C C said. Don't, I mean it's silly knocking on strangers' doors, it really is ridiculous knocking on strangers' doors. Any views give us a call,. [music] Elaine Paige I don't know why I played that was the wrong record to play. I hate that record. She's not a bad person, actually I quite like Elaine Paige but er I hate that record. I don't know why I hate it I just hate it okay. Er O nine O four s oh hang on I'll l l llet you do this okay go on take it take it. [telephone number drone in background] That's the number ring in. I've got the Beatles, I've got the Beatles next. I have yes I'm picking up I'm picking up, I'm picking up Ellen hello. Ellen? [Michael:] Ellen? I'm not Ellen [James Whale:] How are you? Is it Ellen? [Michael:] No. [James Whale:] Oh it's Michael is it? [Michael:] Now then James. [James Whale:] Michael. [Michael:] How are you? [James Whale:] I'm fine. Why why did I think you were Ellen? [Michael:] Well. [James Whale:] Now Ellen was on the other line. I don't know why. Ellen was on yellow which is twenty two and you are on whatever er white which is er twenty nineteen [Michael:] That's right I have no idea [James Whale:] Does that answer your question? [Michael:] I can only take your word for that. [James Whale:] Okay well it's true. [Michael:] Right. Okay. [James Whale:] Michael from York [Michael:] Now then how are you? We spoke last week actually [James Whale:] Oh you're the wealthy one the Rothschild one aren't you [Michael:] No I'm just normal. [James Whale:] Oh just normal. [Michael:] I just wanted to [James Whale:] Not according to all the people who phoned in afterwards. [Michael:] Now listen to me [James Whale:] Go on. [Michael:] We're having a bonfire this Friday [James Whale:] Yeah [Michael:] And we haven't got a guy. [James Whale:] Well I'm not coming [Michael:] Are you interested? [James Whale:] No absolutely not. [Michael:] Can I book you to go on top of the bonfire [James Whale:] No you can't. How much by the way? [Michael:] Er what's your normal rate? [James Whale:] Er for you, travelling to York what do you think? Five grand? [Michael:] Five grand, no problem as long as you're prepared to er go up in smoke. [James Whale:] Oh go up in smoke. [LAUGHTER] that's another ten. That's another ten grand fifteen grand I'll sit up on top of the bonfire until it gets hot [Michael:] we ought to have a phone in James. Who would who would want you to go on top of the bonfire. [James Whale:] Okay well we can do that. O nine o four six four one six four one. If you would like to see me on top of Michael's bonfire ring in and the er th th the more amount of votes we get in for that [Michael:] listen to me. What we ought to do we'll have the vote in [James Whale:] We will will we? [Michael:] Who Well if you if you it's your show of course [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] I'm glad you remembered that [Michael:] Right. Well for the time being [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] [Michael:] we'll have a vote who would rather go on top of the bonfire you or me. [James Whale:] You or me? [Michael:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Well w nobody knows you I mean [Michael:] Yes they do I'm very famous. [James Whale:] A B You are are you? Well we did have a few of your funny friends on afterwards saying do you know this man is he he he is er got the best in parties. If you want a party he's the one to go to. [Michael:] Really? [James Whale:] They said you've got some wowee parties [Michael:] Oh well there you go you see, now are you interested then Friday night? [James Whale:] Friday night [Michael:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Sitting on your bonfire? [Michael:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Absolutely not [Michael:] Why not? [James Whale:] Well, cos I'm not. [Michael:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] I'm going to be busy Friday night [Michael:] Okay well the offer was there anyway. [James Whale:] Listen Michael it's very very nice. When you're having another one of those parties I read about in the Sport. [Michael:] In the Sport? [James Whale:] In the Jacuzzi with the girls I'm your man [Michael:] delivered daily don't you [LAUGHTER] I'm going to have to go my lunch is on the table. [James Whale:] Oh what you having? [Michael:] Pate on toast actually. [James Whale:] Really? Well you're on a diet aren't you? You what? [Michael:] In fact in fact, we've just moved in today into this place. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Michael:] I don't know if you're doing anything this afternoon but we want a cleaner [James Whale:] You do? [Michael:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Do you pay good rates? What do you pay? [Michael:] Yeah whatever you want. [James Whale:] Yeah. I m I m I'll do anything for money, I'll literally will do almost anything Is your wife there? [Michael:] Yes. [James Whale:] Let me have a word with her if she's attractive then I might come over. [Michael:] Wendy. [James Whale:] Wendy, bendy Wendy. [speaker003:] Hello James. [James Whale:] Wendy, how are you? [speaker003:] I'm very well thank you how are you? [James Whale:] I'm very well too. My sympathies. It must [speaker003:] so like my husband and I would like all the listeners to know [James Whale:] It must be difficult. [speaker003:] It's very difficult. We've only be married actually erm eighteen months. [James Whale:] Why? I mean presumably he's got a lot of money I mean [speaker003:] Well [James Whale:] is he going to last long? [speaker003:] Well, every now and then he has a bit. [James Whale:] Does he? [speaker003:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Okay. I mean have you got him well insured? [speaker003:] Very well insured. [James Whale:] Good girl, listen that's the only thing I mean that's [speaker003:] The life insurance would be wonderful [James Whale:] Pardon? [speaker003:] The life insurance would be wonderful. [James Whale:] It would would it? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Well you better erm no no no I mustn't be seen to encourage that sort of thing. [speaker003:] No not over the air. [James Whale:] No. What's the new house like? [speaker003:] Erm well it will be very nice but it's a bit like a building site. [James Whale:] Is it? [speaker003:] Mm but it will be nice. [James Whale:] What are the neighbours like? [speaker003:] Erm [James Whale:] I mean you sound enormously younger than he is. [speaker003:] Do I? [James Whale:] Yes and presumably you are. It's sort of the old man young wife syndrome [speaker003:] erm well only about a year only about a year younger. [James Whale:] Really? [speaker003:] Er we've got one lot of neighbours who seem very pleasant and we don't have any other neighbours. [James Whale:] Oh that's okay then. [speaker003:] So er it should be fine. [James Whale:] Yeah he's debauched himself quite a lot judging by his voice. [speaker003:] Well he's an unsavoury person really but I'll hand him back, he's lurking around. [James Whale:] Is he lurking around? [speaker003:] To talk to you. [James Whale:] Okay fine thanks Wendy it's our secret bye. [Michael:] Hello [James Whale:] Er what a lovely wife she says what a lovely man you are. [Michael:] Pardon? [James Whale:] S Say again. [Michael:] Listen all you viewers out there, is it viewers on the radio? [James Whale:] Yes it can be whatever you like. [Michael:] If you would prefer t if you would like to see James Whale on top of bonfire please ring in. [James Whale:] Thank you Michael [Michael:] Alright. [James Whale:] Have a lovely afternoon. [Michael:] speak to you again [James Whale:] And my sympathies once again to your lovely wife. Er is the number to ring and we're still looking for a North Yorkshire M P. Have we found Michael Allison yet? Are we? He was [LAUGHTER] exhausted by his debate on the church [] [LAUGHTER] I don't well probably because nobody else turned up. It was one of those debates when nobody else turns up, but on a more serious note I'm concerned that the th th the problems and we've had them here in North Yorkshire caused by terrorism in Northern Ireland and whilst debating Northern Ireland erm there were very few. There was about fifty percent full the house of Commons was about fifty percent full which I thought was a little worrying. Not to worry right lets go and fine Ellen er on yellow which is twenty two. Ellen? hello Ellen? No can't be on yellow can it? Ellen doesn't seem to be on yellow, is she? You think she is Is she? Okay. Right well let me er let me let met me just er try this one? Ellen? Morning. Lemon? Morning. Morning! Oh Morning. Good morning. God, you're load there. [LAUGHTER] Where are you? I'm at Scarborough. Are you? Yes. Er is it smelling still? Oh it's er it's overcast but it's quite pleasant. Overcast but quite pleasant. Yes. Have we got any coffee left guys? Bring me a cup of coffee. Thank you. Yes Ellen what can I do I I'll tell you. I can read what they said about you. Do you want me to tell you? Well you can do. It says Ellen in Scarborough, regarding children and trick or treat and general behaviour. Well it's not the general behaviour of children really. It's not the children that I get so annoyed on the the trick or treat and the previous running up to the bonfire night. Er the amount of children Yes. that actually [LAUGHTER] sit outside pub doorways until nine ten o'clock at night Now a lot of these children are on the average er eight nine ten eleven twelve year olds Oh I needed that. now I mean you know, they're a bit young. They are very young. They're too young I mean you've got the dark nights on Mm. and with everything that's happening with children, Yeah. I mean they can't even go to the shops sometimes and they're not safe. It's been proven. But what what do you say these I mean what sort of people are are having these children? I mean they're totally degenerate inadequates are they? You know I've had er I've I've had seven children myself. Well you should be ashamed of yourself allowed my children to go out on trick or treat. What'd you have had seven kids for for goodness sake? Well I had, they've all grown up now. Er if I was in power I'd put a tax on every child after two I would have taxed you out of existence Ellen. Ah ha well. You could have got a T V or listened to the radio. Well yes, I suppose so but I wouldn't be without 'em. Well I suppose not. But the point is it's Mind you I would at Christmas. yeah, it's it's the people that do allow their children to go out, and I'm sure there's a lot of parents out there that agree with me on this point, you know, Mm. I mean it it just shouldn't be allowed. Yeah but it's You know it's it's it it is it's stupid. I mean the only people who do it are the parents themselves. Well they're to blame. Obviously I mean Yeah. they let them go out and they don't know where they are, but the majority of of children that do it year in and running up to Christmas time they do exactly the same at Christmas, Mm. Christmas carolling and walking in to pubs. Well I think pub landlords are to blame. I mean there we are we've got a er purveyors of er intoxicating liquor allowing children to go in to their bars or hang around outside. Yeah but the point is I mean if the barman's busy in the pub on a night time and it's dark he don't know whose outside Mm. does he? No you're probably right. couldn't particularly blame a landlord for that. I don't know what you can do about it though because if people are that thick, there's nothing much you can do about it is there? No, but I mean it's it's too late crying isn't it Yeah. if anything happens. So don't ring up complaining that your kids were sort of er abused or whatever if you let them out. If you let them go out at night exactly. Lets see what other people say thank you Ellen Yes alright, thank you. Have a nice Saturday bye bye. Bye. Okay want to give me a call after the news we've got erm a little music after the news and then if you want to ring you can do that now erm about anything you like. If you want to talk about something different MPs voting themselves er twice the rate of inflation pay rise. If you want to have your say on that feel free. And let me just before we take the music remind you of er the front page of the daily mirror today. We're hoping to get somebody from erm the rape crisis centre on the phone to talk about this. I find this particularly disgusting. Front page of the mirror. After ex-law minister's outburst [reading] women deserve rape says M P's wife. Women deserve rape says M P's wife []. I think we should make a phone call to the constituency office of this man and ask them what they think of their er representative. Hang on, oh. [reading] According to Nicholas Fairburn's housekeeper he and his wife has gone out. [] I would have thought they would be hi hiding under the bed for saying this. Let me read it to you. [reading] Many women deserve to be raped a Tory M P's wife said yesterday. Sir Nicholas Fairburn's wife Sam, backed her husband's astonishing views that there is no such crime as rape. [] I repeat, there is no such crime as rape. [reading] It may sound nasty but a man would never look at some of those women she said. A lot of women deserve to be raped. It's not fair on a man if a woman undresses and then changes her mind, at the last minute. Once a man is sexually aroused and is quite it is quite difficult to stop isn't it? [] It might be difficult but that's the difference between well never mind. She added [reading] it's the nature of the beast a sign of the times []. Now I don't know but I would imagine that Lord and Lady Fairburn should be drummed out of Parliament, well he should. I have never ever in my life read anything so ridiculous. If you want to make a commit you can ring me now call now. O nine O four, if you're outside York,. Call now. [telephone number drone in background. music to end of side one of first tape] turn me mike on now and speak don't I? That was my impression of a Leeds accent. Do you like that? Er right welcome back B B C Radio York Whaley's on until er two this afternoon and before we do anything else er a little bit I saw in the paper, Unions about turn, that's the shop workers' union known as USDOR erm have done an about turn and they now say because they saw the writing on the wall, that they think Sunday trading is okay, well more or less. Er and they have forced erm their union to aban or the shop workers have forced their union to abandon its previous policy erm and back opening on the sabbath. I am as you probably know a huge supporter of Sunday trading. I always shop on Sunday and I just thought that it was nice to see in the paper today it looks like we will have legalized Sunday trading everywhere for all of us fairly soon. Good [clapping] I'm very very pleased, very pleased. Er Chris is on the line. We'll talk to Chris before we play a bit of music. Hello Chr hang on a minute Chris don't go away hello Chris. Is that you? [Danny:] Yes. [James Whale:] I think it is. [Danny:] thinking er you were saying that er [James Whale:] You were what? [Danny:] pagan feast. [James Whale:] Did you say you were thinking? [Danny:] You I was thinking [James Whale:] Oh you were thinking oh good that makes a change for our callers [Danny:] You were saying that er Halloween is as pagan feast. [James Whale:] Yes. [Danny:] so's Christmas why shouldn't so why shouldn't we not celebrate that so to speak? [James Whale:] I don't I don't celebrate Christmas do you? [Danny:] Well I do, but I want I want to guy who rang in that wanted you to sit on top of his bonfire. [James Whale:] Mm. [Danny:] Why didn't you ask him to sit on top of your Christmas tree? A s see how he liked it. You think I think it was a bit mean of him. [James Whale:] Well I think he would have enjoyed it too much to be quite honest with you that's why I didn't do it. [Danny:] you never know. [James Whale:] You know. I think he might he might well have enjoyed it. [Danny:] I don't know. [James Whale:] Yes well I suppose so [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] A anyway lovely to talk to you. [Danny:] Okay. [James Whale:] Thank you Chris. Bye bye. Marvellous absolutely marvellous. [yawn] We'll take in some more calls after this. Erm And yes you've guessed it an old Motown hit from erm back in the sixties. Samantha Reeves and the Vandellas, Dancing in the Street. [music, recorded number drone in background, music] Samantha Reeves Dancing in the Street. And you're tuned to Radio York on the Whale show until two and er now we shall probably although the phones are ringing at the moment erm run out of calls I should think because between one and two I know most of you are having your lunch or at the pub or whatever. So er give us a call if you're there. Er William doyen of the broadcasting standards council and a man whose seems to er I don't know I don't know whether he courts bad publicity or he but anyway. He's in the paper today saying why I now believe drug taking should be made legal, and er I think he er he's absolutely right. I don't understand why we make the poor so and so's who are addicted to er to drugs er fear the law as well. If we were to decriminalize drug taking we would probably go a long way down the road to solving the problem. Got any views on that because er bear in mind a lot of the towns and even some of the villages in North Yorkshire have a a problem with drug taking now er that the police are quite concerned about it. So William erm on Thursday night erm he said on B B C's Question Time erm which was given over to crime and punishment issues which had not been debated and erm William said he'd a come to the conclusion now that he believed drug taking should be made legal. Er I don't know if you have any views on that, give us a call. And super model's pay has gone down from ten thousand pounds to er five hundred pounds a day. So if you were thinking of becoming a super model, my suggestion is that er you don't do it alright because it's er it's not worth it. It's I mean would you get out of bed for five hundred quid a day? Would you get out of bed for five hundred pounds of course you wouldn't. So er if you're thinking of becoming a super model if there is anybody out there who's thinking of becoming a super model perhaps you'll give me a ring and er and I can break the bad news to you personally. We also wanted to know if anybody had any views on I mean it. We [speaker003:] So Sunday mornings lie-in time right? Right now I don't want to get you up I want to encourage you to set your alarm for seven o'clock, quite low, and when I come on at about two minutes past just snuggle up to your wireless and enjoy the music and the news and the views about the religious scene in and around North Yorkshire and beyond. What more can I offer you? Well sport, traffic and travel, what's on, think for a minute and plenty of opinion. So go gently in to every week, every Sunday morning with me Simon and a Sunday breakfast show, seven till nine, join me you'll enjoy it. [James Whale:] Oh good, er, [heavy breathing] That's the first time I've heard religious [cough] sort of erm I better not say what I was going to say. Sunday morning Sorry, er right, where is he? Where is he? John John is it? Erm John John are you there? [Douglas:] Yes hello. [James Whale:] Hi John, tell me what you do. [Douglas:] I'm the er information officer at the North Yorkshire European Community Office in York. [James Whale:] You are aren't you? [Douglas:] Indeed. [James Whale:] I'm I'm I'm absolutely glad you've told me that and of course what is the big day that's coming up on Monday? [Douglas:] It's the er official day of the ratification of the Maastricht treaty. [James Whale:] [shouting] Yeah. [] [clapping] [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] [shouting] Yeah. [] And are there going to be flags in the street? Bonfires burning and fireworks being let off? [Douglas:] I think it's highly unlikely. [James Whale:] Oh. [Douglas:] Unlikely indeed. [James Whale:] Oh that that must be a bit galling for you, really, John. [Douglas:] Er well I mean I'll have my fireworks on Friday night the fifth of November but erm [James Whale:] Oh that's a great erm celebration of terrorism isn't it yes. [Douglas:] Well I wouldn't quite put it like that [James Whale:] Why? [Douglas:] But erm [James Whale:] Wouldn't you I would I mean wasn't Guy Fawkes a terrorist? [Douglas:] Well [James Whale:] He was. Don't mince your words John he was. You're not studying to become a politician are you? [Douglas:] Oh no way. [James Whale:] Are you sure? [Douglas:] Absolutely. [James Whale:] Because that was a politician's I'll play that trailer for the Sunday breakfast show again in a few moments and get you terribly excited. [Douglas:] Absolutely. [James Whale:] Erm so nobody's excited about it, not many people knew about it. [Douglas:] Well I wouldn't actually say nobody's excited about it I mean I think that the way these things happen is that they they're gradual rather than er [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] accumulative I mean er [James Whale:] So on Monday when I wake up Monday morning, [Douglas:] Yeah. [James Whale:] How will things be different for me? [Douglas:] Well th there are a number of ways in which there are differences I mean that that that there are things that people might notice themselves er as opposed to kind of, you know, high high politics, are [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] are things like erm in the area of what you might call citizenship, for example in the er European elections you could erm vote in another European country, you could actually stand for election in another European country. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Douglas:] Erm there are different things that e effect consumer policy, environmental policy, and there are lots of things that happen in the educational field. I think that erm young people in particular will see some differences in the way that they can move around different European countries, for example study in another European [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] country or if you gain a qualification erm in er in another European country you can use it in any other one of the E C twelve. So it's sort of a mobility thing and erm I think people will notice it on erm on that kind of level erm but as I say it's a gradual process it's cumulative and erm [James Whale:] So basically there was no no point in it what so ever John [Douglas:] Well I'm I'm not some I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I mean I'm saying that erm [James Whale:] Well you shouldn't say that John, you'd be out of a a job, wouldn't you? [Douglas:] Well I I don't have any er mandates, I mean it's not my er [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] I I'm basically just erm giving information about it I don't have any mandates [James Whale:] Isn't this Okay. Isn't this going to make it difficult now, I mean with jobs the way they are, does this mean tat people can come in from erm E C countries and er there is no reason why they shouldn't be given a job erm against somebody who lives in this country? [Douglas:] Well that's absolutely true. [James Whale:] And there's I mean it's the same for us, as well so er [Douglas:] That's true, yeah. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Douglas:] Erm it's a it's a two way street. I mean er erm it's a single market for every citizen of the E C twelve so an Italian, a Belgian, a German can come to this country and work, er but the p Assuming they can do everything else as equal, their qualifications are equal and so on. [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] Erm but the converse is true, that er er er a British national can go and work in all of those countries, so instead of seeing it as a threat, I mean one can easily see it as an opportunity. [James Whale:] It's interesting though, that after all this aggravation, the fact that er the Prime Minister nearly lost his job, er there was nearly another election erm there's going to be no celebrations, no fireworks, no balloons, no huge dinners on Monday we're just going to sort of peter into the Maastricht treaty coming into effect. [Douglas:] Well I think that's a good way of putting it, absolutely, I mean er As as I say but it it is erm I think it's been a long process and to get I mean it's taken nearly two years since the [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] treaty was actually signed and the process has been so long and er various people have been er As it were, knocked with the Danish referendum, the french referendum, and John Major's had his own difficulties in getting through the house of commons. Erm [James Whale:] Well there's an understatement, yes. [Douglas:] Absolutely. [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] and I don't think that it's the kind of erm erm b bonfire night, fireworks celebration type [James Whale:] Mm. [Douglas:] of event but erm I don't think that that makes it er negative, I think that the idea is that it's it's cumulative and er that's that's the way, well as you say,. [James Whale:] Okay. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us John er er and I'm so sorry it's not going to be more of a a m m milestone in your life. [Douglas:] You know I mean always looked forward to champagne but er there we are. [James Whale:] Thanks John. [Douglas:] Thank you. [James Whale:] Bye bye. [Douglas:] Bye. [James Whale:] Radio York the Whale Show on a Saturday afternoon. Now Welsh M P, this is quite funny, has moved the motion if you'll excuse me on the subject of public loos. He rightly points out that we need more ladies toilets and if you know you get the chance to to use the ladies loo it's cleaner and better looked after than the men's, I've heard. Erm and the simple reason he says the the historical length of time taken by females we need more public facilities. Also to make them more user friendly especially for mums with toddlers in tow, they need to be more roomy. Of all the things the Welsh MPs have got to talk about they decided public toilets are the most important. You have a view on a public loo then give us a ring, rather seedy unfriendly dirty smelling of urine places if you want my own public opinion. O nine O four six four one six four one O nine O four six four one six four one. I want you to pick up your phone and call me now cos I could do with a couple of phone calls so pick it up now O nine O four six four one six four one. Hello oops hello Jennifer. No not Jennifer hang on just a minute let me try Jennifer there. Hello Jennifer? No on blue on on blue on blue what blu what number is blue? Twenty three okay well I've it on twenty three I don't know why it's not working. Let's try again. Hello Jennifer? No let me try this one. Erm Jennifer hello. [Sam:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hello what's that noise? [noise on line] I knew this was going to happen it's going to be one of those days. Jennifer? [Sam:] Hello. [James Whale:] You've got [noise on line] you've got a funny thing on your whatsit. [Sam:] I don't know what it is. [James Whale:] Have you got your radio on Jennifer? [Sam:] No. [James Whale:] No it's not a radio sound. It sound like a baby alarm to me. [Sam:] No I haven't got a baby alarm either. [James Whale:] Haven't got a baby alarm eith oh well that's okay that'll be fine I don't care [sniff]. I'm gonna have another cup of coffee do you mind? [Sam:] Not at all. [James Whale:] Okay. Where are you calling from let me have a look up there. oh Jennifer from York. [Sam:] That's right. [James Whale:] Oh I thought you were calling from. I was going to say I didn't know there was such a place. [Sam:] There's. [James Whale:] There is isn't there. [Sam:] Yes. [James Whale:] But that's up erm isn't that up [Sam:] There's Thirsk [James Whale:] Thirsk yeah [Sam:] Yeah. [James Whale:] yeah it's up near Middlesbrough isn't it somewhere up that way. [Sam:] Yeah that way yes yes. [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] But no from York from Osbaldwick. [James Whale:] Oh God this coffee's cold urgh. [Sam:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Well apparently we can't find anywhere to to make coffee yeah. Oh I've gotta do the can you can you sorry about this Jennifer [Sam:] That's okay. [James Whale:] I've got to take the traffic now. Can I take the traffic now I think I'm gonna yeah that's that's okay. Would you would you hang on just a minute? [Sam:] Certainly will. [James Whale:] And would you give me points out of ten for how I get into this okay? [Sam:] Right. [James Whale:] All right here we go. Er right I'll just leave you there for a moment and put that back up there. I have to say something like hang on just one minute erm I have to pull this faded down don't I go [music] B B C Radio York the station that's always first for travel. [Danny:] Good afternoon James. Well starting off on the A one between Catterick and Leeming Bar there's the weekend contraflow in operation there today. All traffics using the southbound carriageway at the moment there are delays of about five to six miles on the southbound approach to those roadworks also quite busy northbound at the moment. Otherwise the A one is quite busy throughout the region but no other major problems are reported. Football this afternoon Scarborough are playing Bury at the McCain Stadium so you can expect some extra traffic in Scarborough town centre with that football. Also at Stockton on Forest Stockton Lane bridge is closed over this weekend. That's for resurfacing work through to six o'clock on Monday morning. The A one six eight between Dishforth and Thirsk still has the contraflow in place between the A one and the A nineteen and finally just a reminder that er contraflow on the A one at Catterick is causing southbound delays of between five and six miles. Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. [James Whale:] Very very well done Danny I thought you were good. How am I doing by the way Jennifer? [Sam:] Oh ten out of ten. [James Whale:] Ten out of ten thank you very much indeed Jennifer. Er I see actually that er there is a little delay on the one thirty three London Kings Cross train. That's not going till one forty five and the one th er twenty five Manchester Victoria is not going till one thirty nine and the one twenty Manchester Airport isn't going till one twenty eight but there's no big deal about any of that really so most of the trains are on time that you. More traffic oh hang on turn that off right more traffic and travel a bit of a bodge-up at the end there really Jennifer. [Sam:] [LAUGHTER] Right [] [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] Erm. [] Right Jennifer's on from York. What we going to talk about? [Sam:] Erm about the Halloween about [James Whale:] Oh right yes yes Yep right. [Sam:] Yes yes. Erm I haven't actually been listening to the programme I was asleep I've got to be honest. [James Whale:] Why? It wasn't that boring. [Sam:] No not [James Whale:] It wasn't that boring. What d'ya mean you were asleep. I was on T V until two o'clock this morning. How come you were asleep? [Sam:] Well just that kind of person I suppose. [James Whale:] Oh God. [Sam:] I dunno. [James Whale:] What do you do Jennifer? I'm just I'm interested. [Sam:] I'm a domestic maintenance engineer. [James Whale:] A housewife I see. [Sam:] [LAUGHTER] Right you've heard that one before. Yes erm [James Whale:] Yeah but housewives don't usually go to sleep at this time in the afternoon. [Sam:] Right. I was up a six this morning does that [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] you know. [James Whale:] Where's the old man? [Sam:] Oh he isn't I'm on my own. [James Whale:] Are you? [Sam:] Yes. [James Whale:] Oh probably just as well you can please yourself what you do now. [Sam:] Exactly. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Sam:] Yes yes. I do have two children though so [James Whale:] Yeah. [Sam:] Halloween thing does affect me. [James Whale:] Are they going out wanting to go out and sort of terrorize the neighbours or not? [Sam:] Well they're not erm [chair scraping noise] I'm a practising Christian [James Whale:] Oh that's a chair [Sam:] and erm we're having an event at our church in Osbaldwick [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] called Saints Alive which is basically a fun thing sort of celebrating the lives of the Saints. [James Whale:] I mean I don't understand why the church or the so called church or whatever you like to call it. There's the there's the big one in York isn't there I mean that's like number one in the land or number two in the land. [Sam:] Yep. [James Whale:] Why isn't he pontificating from the battlements about this. Why isn't he sort of shouting his mouth off about it. He shouts it off about lots of other things. I mean why doesn't he say something about it? [Sam:] Well I don't know I mean I can't answer for them. Erm [James Whale:] But as a as a member of his club you should be able to you should you should be able to bring power to bear on the er the top bod shouldn't you? [Sam:] Well I don't know should we? [James Whale:] Yeah of course you should. I yes people power. [Sam:] individuals and we we can think how we like. I mean we're not sheep that [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] follow what someone else says. There are Christians who believe that there's nothing wrong with Halloween. [James Whale:] I don't I mean I don't think really the majority of people who mess around at Halloween understand what what is really going on. [Sam:] No exactly that's half the problem. [James Whale:] Which I think is probably more of a problem for them than anything else. [Sam:] Yes yes exactly. They don't realize just what is can lead to. [James Whale:] You know look at the debate within the Church of England about erm er female priests female vicars female clergy whatever you want to call it. [Sam:] Yep. [James Whale:] There's no debate about Halloween. Here we are each year we have a huge celebration of the devil and nobody says a thing. [Sam:] Yeah exactly. I mean it is wrong and I don't think people realize just how wrong it is until they really stop and think about it. [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] I mean even I understand you were talking about the children sort of being out in the dark on their own erm even just something as simple as that. Who in their right minds is going to let their children out in the dark? [James Whale:] Persuaded by the devil you see. Subliminally persuaded by the devil to let them out. [Sam:] Yes well I don't know I mean C S Lewis says we take the devil in two ways. We either take him too seriously or we're too flippant about him. [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] You know and either way is just dangerous. [James Whale:] Yeah I agree with you I agree with you. Erm I I am surprised well I don't I'm not surprised really they're probably busy doing things but I thought we might have got a couple of vicars on this er this afternoon to talk about it. But they were probably asleep like you are. [Sam:] Oh quite probably or preparing sermons for the morning [James Whale:] Mm. [Sam:] tell people how terribly bad it is tomorrow. [James Whale:] Will they do that tomorrow? [Sam:] Possibly. [James Whale:] Yeah oh well never mind. Well er watch how you go you'd better go back to bed now I suppose. [Sam:] Yes yes I think I'd better. [James Whale:] All right. [Sam:] Okay. [James Whale:] Jennifer nice talking to you. [Sam:] Nice talking to you thanks very much. [James Whale:] Bye bye. [Sam:] Bye bye. [James Whale:] Okay that was Jennifer. If you want to join me you can pick up the phone give me a ring O nine O four six four one six four one. All those people who've never done it before and if you're in bed at the moment I'll perhaps have a chat with you while you're in bed this morning. It's afternoon keep saying that it's afternoon it's morning to me this afternoon pick up your phone and give me a ring now O nine O four six four one six four one. Erm hang on just a er just a er Simon? Hello Simon? Why is this not working? There's a phone call coming in. S hang on. Let me try Simon? [Melanie:] Hello James [James Whale:] Hi. Sorry about that Simon I don't know why we're not working here. [Melanie:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] One of these little buttons isn't working terribly well. Er can you hang on a minute Simon? [Melanie:] Yeah sure. [James Whale:] Okay okay just so I can't I need a couple more calls to finish off the programme and take a couple more records er O nine O four six four one six four one would you ring me. Just O nine O four six four one six four one. Anybody anybody in there erm there who's er just doesn't even know why they're ring that would be quite nice. Simon why are you calling? [Melanie:] Well the other day somebody asked me to sign a petition about date rape [James Whale:] Yep. [Melanie:] you reminded me of that. They the petition said that there is no difference between rape and date rape. [James Whale:] Mm. [Melanie:] And er I was standing there I wasn't really sure whether I should sign it. Erm you know I thought thought but I'm not sure if there is a difference. I think there is a difference. [James Whale:] I'm sure there's a difference. I'm sure there are there you know there's there is ordinary nasty horrid aggressive rape when you're you're you know like somebody's attacked from behind or something down a a dark alley. And then there is a different thing called date rape but there is no excuse for either I don't think. [Melanie:] Well I'm not sure about that either. I mean certainly there's the horrid sort of thing that happens on date rape [James Whale:] Mm. [Melanie:] and you know with violence and that and then as you work your way along there'd be the sort of situation where there isn't any physical violence but there's intimidation and fear [James Whale:] Yep. [Melanie:] fear of violence and I think that's that's definitely out of order. And then you get you work your way along and you get to the situation where erm the woman is pressured by feelings of embarrassment or social pressure not to say no. And that's when I think it starts to get into into shady ground where where the woman hasn't actually said no because she feels intimidated not by violence but by social pressure. That's I mean that's maybe more the fault of society than it is the fault of the of the man that's involved. And then you get into the situations apparently where erm people decide after they've had sex [James Whale:] Mm. [Melanie:] that they didn't enjoy it and therefore it must have been rape cos they didn't wa they didn't like it. Erm and then I think you've you've clearly gone outside the definition of rape or outside you know a reasonable [James Whale:] Yeah I would agree with that but I don't think there is er any excuse for a woman to or a man for that matter to say [reading] women deserve rape says M P's wife []. [Melanie:] Oh no I mean he's g he's gotta go hasn't he? [James Whale:] I mean if if a woman undresses okay let's take a scenario okay Simon maybe er you know you could put yourself in the same situation [Melanie:] All right. [James Whale:] been out with a woman's erm undressed in front of you you know you've done the bit you've er you've managed to er within three easy steps undo the bra with one hand whilst er telling her you know you're a really nice guy and there's no chance of going too far and all that sort of thing and you know you get you get fairly carried away you may even be under the sheets [Melanie:] Yeah. [James Whale:] you may even and this is a bit I mean Saturday lunchtime is a bit I'm almost almost er oh the producer's going, Careful careful, which he should know is a red flag to a bull and I might say [shouting] [] no but I won't. Er so maybe you're both even under the covers naked all right [Melanie:] Mm mm. [James Whale:] okay and then there're there're bits of your body that are are are you know your your your whole being is stirring [Melanie:] Could be a bit hard to stop. [James Whale:] It could be very hard to stop. [Melanie:] Mm. [James Whale:] So er as soon as the girl turns to you and says, Right I don't want to go any further that's it. [Melanie:] Well it's it's annoying at that point. [James Whale:] It's very annoying but that's when you have to stop. [Melanie:] but you do have to stop but that isn't to say it isn't very annoying. [James Whale:] Okay. But if you were to carry on and the woman was screaming [shouting] no no no no [] get off get off get off, as far as I'm concerned that's rape. [Melanie:] That is yeah. But I think there's some there's some grey areas in there. [James Whale:] there are but I mean it's it's silly for people to say once a man is sexually aroused it's quite difficult to stop isn't it? Well it is difficult to stop. [Melanie:] I'm I'm surprised they haven't got rid of cynics already actually [James Whale:] Mm. [Melanie:] Erm [James Whale:] Well he's not in he's out today he's out he and his wife are out cos we put a phone call in we said let's have a chat with him [Melanie:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] We were just going to ask him about this [LAUGHTER] proposed pay rise [] that's all. [Melanie:] This thing that that er his wife said about some women deserve it [James Whale:] Mm. [Melanie:] Funnily enough though there are there are feminist women who are who are saying similar things that saying that it is a bit irresponsible to have gotten into bed with someone and taken all your clothes off and then say no. [James Whale:] Yeah but [Melanie:] But as you say you at that point you do have to stop. [James Whale:] How many though how many men have and you remember, I can just remember, [Melanie:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] I mean just you know the the sort of, Well look er you know it doesn't mean I won't respect you and I don't love you and all that sort of thing. [Melanie:] Er I'm not sure I share your experience there [James Whale:] You see and er I mean er [drawn out] are you sure you don't want and er. We can be persuasive [Melanie:] Mm. [James Whale:] but there has to be a time when no is no. [Melanie:] Just have to avoid being intimidated. [James Whale:] Yes you're right. Simon thanks for calling. [Melanie:] All right then. [James Whale:] Bye. [Melanie:] Bye. [James Whale:] I don't know if I want to talk about this on a Saturday lunchtime I tell you Dan I mean it really is it's erm What are you doing? [Danny:] I've thought of something. [James Whale:] Oh have you. What have you thought of? [Danny:] That silly judge who erm [James Whale:] Oh. [Danny:] said that he's no angel do you remember that case? [James Whale:] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. [Danny:] He's done it again. [James Whale:] Has he done it again? He hasn't [Danny:] still working. [James Whale:] I'm I'm surprised at that hang on er we've got Mark on yellow what number is yellow twenty two. Hello Mark [Alf:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hi where are you? [Alf:] In Scarborough. [James Whale:] Okay hang on then Mark. Have you found it? [Danny:] Not yet. [James Whale:] Okay well look for it. Yes Mark? [Alf:] I'm completely against Halloweening. [James Whale:] You are? [Alf:] Yep. [James Whale:] Well you must be one of the very few I would have thought Mark. [Alf:] Well I'm sick of it cos you see every year we get little kids coming round to our houses asking for trick or treat [James Whale:] Yeah. [Alf:] and I live in a place where there's a lot of old people and they come round to us and they tell us they've been scared the night after [James Whale:] Mm. [Alf:] they tell us how scared they are and I don't like listening to it I getting sick of it now. [James Whale:] You don't like listening to who? [Alf:] Well the old people complain that they've been scared. Like we get big gangs of kids coming round. [James Whale:] Why to they complain to you Mark? [Alf:] Well we're friendly with them all. [James Whale:] Friendly with who? [Alf:] All the neighbours. [James Whale:] Oh I see right. Yeah. [Alf:] Erm well we're just sick of them. We get loads of kids coming round big gangs of kids scaring everyone. I mean they do it just don't make an effort they just come round demanding money. [James Whale:] Mm. [Alf:] Well the best thing is a bucket of cold water by the door. No I jest it's not a good idea. Erm yeah well there we are I mean I I you're just talking to somebody who's converted really Mark I mean I think it's a waste of time it's er it's a sort of pagan festival Yes. [James Whale:] it's a copy of something in America. There's nothing worse than when you're at home you don't want people banging unannounced on the door saying [mimicking] trick or treat []. Because I know what I'm going to say to any kids who have the audacity to come to my house which they won't but erm and I'm sure a lot of people do so the rest of the year we we're encouraging children not to approach strangers and everything else and then this one day of the year or maybe two days or maybe the whole run-up from now until November the fifth you've got kids begging on the street penny for the guy and all that sort of thing. [Alf:] Yes. [James Whale:] It's just a mockery. It's a mockery. [Alf:] Disgusting. Well if they come round to ours this year I'll invite them in I'll take them to my basement and I'll lock 'em up for a few days. [James Whale:] Well joking apart that's the sort of thing that could happen to kids and er you you know you wonder why parents let them out. [Alf:] Take 'em around somewhere like Michael Sands's house. [James Whale:] Yeah we can't really turn him up he's fully up actually. Sorry I can't turn you up. Why is all that [shouting] noise going on behind you []? [Alf:] Me? Cos I'm at Scarborough seafront. [James Whale:] You're at Scarborough seafront. [Alf:] Yeah. [James Whale:] In a phone box? [Alf:] No. [James Whale:] Mobile phone. What? [Alf:] [LAUGHTER] Selling ice-creams. [] [James Whale:] Oh selling ice-creams [Alf:] Yes. [James Whale:] Yeah is it busy there at the moment? [Alf:] Not bad. [James Whale:] Cos it's pretty miserable outside isn't it [Alf:] customers waiting but there you go. [James Whale:] Have you? [Alf:] Yeah. [James Whale:] You give the phone to the next customer. Who's the next customer. [Alf:] Next customer's the lady waiting here. [James Whale:] Let me talk to her. [Alf:] Do you want to talk to her? [James Whale:] Yeah. [Alf:] Excuse me. Do you want to talk to James Whale on the radio? [James Whale:] [mimicking] Who? [] [Alf:] Do you want to talk to him? He wants to talk to you. Don't you? No one wants to speak to you. [James Whale:] Well make her speak. What did you tell her it was me for that's a putter-off for a start. Why didn't you just thrust the phone into her hand? [Alf:] They're all scared you know. [James Whale:] Are they? [Alf:] Yep. [James Whale:] Yeah. Are they they they your regular customers? [Alf:] Well not really. [James Whale:] I see. And they know what you're doing at the moment do they whilst you're not serving them ice-cream. [Alf:] illicit phone calls. [James Whale:] Oh you're make illicit phone calls. [Alf:] I've been listening to your programme all morning so. [James Whale:] I see. [Alf:] I'll have to go. [James Whale:] Okay watch how you go. Bye. [Alf:] Bye. [James Whale:] Fancy telling them it's me no wonder it's going to put off. Er the judge who said an eight year old sex victim was no angel, you remember the one of course, yesterday freed two men who had intercourse with a thirteen year old. They he freed two men. Ian heard from police that the girl was more like Mandy Smith than the proverbial school girl and gave both men conditional discharges. He then told the court I had better not say she was an angel or no angel or the national press will have a hundred field days. She was a girl trying to find young men to satisfy her sexual desires. He added, I have to pass a sentence because it is against the law. It would be folly to pass a custodial sentence whatever the Court of Appeal may think. The seventy one year old judge caused uproar in June when he said an eight year old victim of a sex attack was not entirely an angel herself. He gave student Karl two years probation for attempted unlawful sexual intercourse. The Court of Appeal increased his sentence to four months jail yesterday. Judge Hill gave two year conditional discharges to Philip twenty one from Southampton and Keith nineteen of nearby Hythe for unlawful intercourse. Now I don't know because you know there's a photograph in that story of Mandy Smith as well and er Mandy Smith looked like Mandy Smith from about the age of fourteen. Erm any views? You might give us a call O nine O four six four one six four one. John is er on blue on blue on blue on blue twenty three John hello. Hello John? Hello John [Danny:] Good after good afternoon. [James Whale:] Got you John yes John. [Danny:] Yes. [James Whale:] Hi. [Danny:] Hello.... [James Whale:] Er you're on John. [Danny:] Yes. [James Whale:] You're on the air John. [banging] Your turn John. [Danny:] Good afternoon. [James Whale:] I beg your pardon John. [Danny:] Do you want to hear my opinions about er what we spoke about yesterday? Er you were on about ye I spoke yesterday about Halloween. [James Whale:] Oh did you it wasn't me but yes go on you you feel free. [Danny:] Must have been somebody else. [LAUGHTER] Okay well er there are seem one [James Whale:] I mean is it worth it? You might as well [Danny:] children isn't it [James Whale:] might as well go home. Yes John. [Danny:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hello. [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] What's going on? [] [James Whale:] Haven't a clue John we're all mad aren't we? [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] Well some of us. [James Whale:] I'll take a lead from you. Anyway John you go on. [Danny:] Right. [James Whale:] Yeah. [banging] [Danny:] You still there? [James Whale:] Yes I'm here John. You all right? Good good good good. [Danny:] Right. [James Whale:] I keep hearing funny noises [Danny:] Yes I do. [James Whale:] Yes. [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] Must be Halloween or [James Whale:] Yeah. [Danny:] supposed to be [James Whale:] Let me get that right again John you said you keep hearing funny noises. Yeah. [Danny:] that you silly [James Whale:] Ooh! [sound of glass being knocked] [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] I lie in here. [James Whale:] I don't know I don't know you should've Have you got your hands sort of tied up behind you in that sort of coat thing? [Danny:] I haven't got anything. [James Whale:] Haven't you I have. [Danny:] Oh right. [James Whale:] All right. [Danny:] Have we stopped playing er are we are we serious now? [James Whale:] Are you serious? [Danny:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Good that's all it needs is one of us to be serious and we're okay. [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [James Whale:] John. [Danny:] Hallow [James Whale:] You're on the air yeah. [Danny:] Yes Halloween. Right you were talking about its affect on children [James Whale:] Mm. [Danny:] and er I've discussed this before and I've come to the conclusion that these children who come along with Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on your door they're more affected than any child once a year practising whatever you like to call it Halloween or whatever. That was basically my argument. [James Whale:] So excuse me for being a little thick. [Danny:] Yes. [James Whale:] I didn't I what what d'ya mean? [Danny:] Well when the Jehovah's and the other religious cults come knocking at the door with their various pamphlet and trying to persuade you that their religion is better than others [James Whale:] Yeah. [Danny:] they have these very young children with them [James Whale:] Yeah. [Danny:] and er I think they're more affected by outside influences brainwash whatever you like to call it than one night a year of Halloween. [James Whale:] Yeah well okay er possibly but er I think you're missing the point actually. I mean Halloween is it's a pagan ritual it's there to worship the devil it's the most poignant date in the calendar if you want to get into black magic if you want to dance naked round er a sheep's heart with sticks stuck through it. [Danny:] Hey hey I say all these kids are doing is walking round with a bloody turnip with a candle in it. They're not learning about religion where they don't believe in blood transfusions etcetera etcetera seven or eight year old. [James Whale:] Yes but I think you know you have to give [sigh] [Danny:] Go on. [James Whale:] You have to give a little bit of er credibility there for people not being quite that dim don't you? [Danny:] Not quite that dim? [James Whale:] Well I mean we we're not really er [cough]. If Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door [Danny:] Yes. [James Whale:] you know what it's all about. Okay? You either let them in for two reasons. You let them in to have a laugh at them or you let them in because you want to listen to what they're saying. Okay? [Danny:] Yes. [James Whale:] You cannot put that together with Halloween which basically is people going out thinking they're going out to have fun and they're having a bit of a laugh and everything else where's there's their underlying er connection with the devil. [Danny:] I don't think children realize it is a connection with the devil [James Whale:] But isn't isn't that the most dangerous thing? [Danny:] No no I think the consistent and persistent influence in the children which some of these religious cults have I think that's more dangerous than one one two nights of a candle in a in a turnip or whatever. [James Whale:] Yes but could they not be brainwashed if you like into thinking well there's nothing much wrong there isn't such a thing as evil [Danny:] No no. [James Whale:] You don't think so? [Danny:] evil isn't there? [James Whale:] Well of course there's evil yeah. [Danny:] And I think pretend there isn't evil. [James Whale:] Okay thank you for your call John. [Danny:] Okay. [James Whale:] You enjoyed that didn't you? Be honest. [Danny:] Well [James Whale:] Yeah be honest you enjoyed it. [Danny:] interesting talking to er [James Whale:] A nut case I know exactly how you feel. [Danny:] Different opinions. [James Whale:] Thank you John. [Danny:] Okay bye bye. [James Whale:] Bye bye. Er right thank you John. Erm go back up here. Now we've got Sir Frederick erm I can't see the Sir Frederick Lawton retired senior judge on the phone. Sir Frederick good erm afternoon to you. [David:] Good afternoon. [James Whale:] Er we really wanted to know what your view on erm Sir Nicholas Fairburn's outburst both in the Commons I suppose and er reported the outburst of his wife on the front page of the Daily Mirror today. [David:] Well I haven't seen that outburst but er I understand that he suggested [James Whale:] Could I read it to you? [David:] Yes please. [James Whale:] Sor let me read. First of all the headline says, [reading] Women deserve rape says M P's wife [], and then the front page exclusive, [reading] Many women deserve to be raped a Tory M P's wife said yesterday. Sir Nicholas Fairburn's wife Sam backed her husband's astonishing views that there is no such crime as rape []. [David:] Well that's absolute rubbish. I've had I think more experience of what a rape in court than Sir Nicholas. He may have had more experience outside court than I have because I've had none. But in court I have probably dealt with more rape cases than any other living lawyer. And my experience has been that virtually all rape cases have been the forcible interference with a woman. [James Whale:] So why do you think Sir Nicholas and his wife have both come out and said something as ridiculous as this? They also go on to say that a lot of women deserve to be raped. [David:] Well that again is nonsense. There is unfortunately a theory around which is of long standing to that effect. I presided over a the Criminal Law Revision Committee when we reviewed the law relating to rape and we discovered that there was this myth that women asked for rape. It is a myth. [James Whale:] Why in in that case do you think that Sir Nicholas and he he he's not stupid, I mean he's a career politician, he's come out and said this his wife has said that they're both smiling on the front page of the newspaper at the moment and they go on to say it's not fair on a man if a women undresses and then changes her mind. [David:] Well that may it may be unfair and until recently that kind of situation never came before the courts. There has unfortunately in my opinion been a change of attitude about which cases to prosecute [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] and in some of these cases there ought not to be a prosecution. But that doesn't mean that the ordinary case is one in which the woman is in any way asking to be raped. [James Whale:] Now Sir Frederick, recently the police have made great strides forward in encouraging women to come and report rape because until recently they didn't and they didn't want to they didn't want to face the shame and they didn't want to face everything else, Sir Nicholas and and again his wife which is the most worrying I think of this a women saying that that that women deserve to be raped, erm it's going to make women less likely to come forward isn't it? [David:] Well i I agree. But again I think it has been unfortunate er er that recently there have been a few cases in which it would have been better not to prosecute [James Whale:] Mhm. [David:] but they are a minority of cases. In most cases that I've dealt with and I've f I repeat I've probably dealt with more than any other living person in court, er there has been a clear case of rape. [James Whale:] Could I move on from that Sir Frederick just to ask you whilst you're on the phone your views on er the story in the Daily Mail today. Er Judge Ian I'm sure you'll be familiar with him he is the judge who [David:] I I know him personally. [James Whale:] Right. Er he said or he's in a in a in a little trouble today for allowing two men who had sex of thirteen to go free erm a policeman told the judge that the thirteen year old was more like Mandy Smith than the proverbial school girl with pigtails but she was nevertheless thirteen and the judge said he had better not say she was no angel or the national press would have a hundred field days with him. Is there not some call on judges to be just a little a a little more respectful perhaps when they're they're dealing with cases like this rather than as flippant as he [David:] Well I I agree about that. I think that er Judge er 's remarks were a little unfortunate er but er he's now ret nearing retirement and occasionally all of us, I've done it myself [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] in the past, make remarks which I regret. Er but the basis of what he had to say is presents a problem which do face judges in the class of case. Er unfortunately one has cases from time to time on girls of this age who set out to entice men. Er it's unfortunate that they should but when the men succumb to their er approaches then it's always a very difficult [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] problem as to what to do about it. [James Whale:] Well the men although they may not have realized they were thirteen must have been pretty stupid not to realize they were perhaps below consent age. [David:] Oh yes well I agree about that. But a great deal depends on the circumstances. I have experience of this class of case over a period of more than fifty years and it hasn't been uncommon in the past even in the days when judges took a more rigorous view than they cline er inclined to do nowadays not to punish er in any with a custodial [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] sentence as men youngish men not older men youngish men who behave in this way. [James Whale:] Now Judge as you you said you know er and erm Sir Frederick I know you're retired now, he's seventy one do you think there should be a mandatory retirement age for judges perhaps. That maybe they get to a certain time when they're going to be out of touch? [David:] has it that it should be seventy from the future. [James Whale:] Mm. [David:] It all depends on the judge. I mean I remember judges who were were er much younger than seventy who were beyond it. On the other hand I remember judges who were over seventy five. The most outstanding judge in my lifetime has been Lord Reed. Er he does he doesn't figure very much in the [LAUGHTER] tabloids [] [James Whale:] Yeah. [David:] because [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] he he was so good that he never annoyed anybody by silly remarks. But he was well over eighty when he retired. [James Whale:] Do you think we should have slightly younger judges. I mean there is the move to make people judges earlier than they have been recently? [David:] Well it depends upon what you mean by early. As Lord er the Lord Chief Justice said in a television programme Question Time er two nights ago it takes a good deal of experience before somebody's qualified to be a judge and when you do become a judge you have a great deal to learn. You know there was an old legal story er saying rather er that er in the first five years that a a j a man is appointed a judge he doesn't know the job. In the next five years he thinks he does but doesn't. And in the last five years he's too old to do it. [James Whale:] That's worrying. I don't want to appear in front a judge in his first [LAUGHTER] five years then []. [David:] But that that's the problem that we all have [tape change] This is one of the problems that the ju burdens that the judge has to bear. [James Whale:] Did you in your time ever send a man to execution? [David:] No I I only tried three capital murder cases and all three they got acquitted. [James Whale:] Were you were you glad about that? [David:] In two of them I was. [James Whale:] Sir Frederick thank you for er speaking to me this afternoon. [David:] Thank you. [James Whale:] Interesting talking to you bye bye [David:] Good bye. [James Whale:] Okay er we move on over six seven minutes to go before the end of the programme. Let's talk to er Steve erm where are hang on just one moment whilst I find you. Hello Steve? [Michael:] Hello James [James Whale:] Hi. [Michael:] Hello. Just er one final comment about this Halloween. Really with very few exceptions it's simply a bit of harmless fun. I mean let's face it [James Whale:] That's always the worse thing isn't it whe the the most annoying this when it's [mimicking] harmless fun []. [Michael:] Er yeah. [James Whale:] [mimicking] Come into my parlour said the spider to the fly. [] [Michael:] Horror films. What's your comment about those? I mean [James Whale:] Do you believe in devil? [Michael:] Television [James Whale:] Do you believe in the devil? [Michael:] on children than any other media. [James Whale:] I agree Steve I agree. Do you believe in the devil though? Do you believe that Halloween has any kind of place with the devil or not? [Michael:] No. [James Whale:] You don't. [Michael:] I don't. [James Whale:] Er then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. I mean you will you will go on merrily your own sweet way and erm I I hope nothing happens to sort of [Michael:] I mean we we we don't er we don't dance on sheep's hearts here in Gate Helmsley. [James Whale:] Well I don't know because North Yorkshire's pretty sort of erm er pretty rife as far as black magic is concerned. [Michael:] Well you [James Whale:] And d'ya know I I'm beginning to think you sort of protest so much that [LAUGHTER] maybe [] you're a leader of a coven or something. [Michael:] Erm [James Whale:] Put on the old sheep's head and dance naked round the bonfire. [Michael:] Is that right? Well no I'm not no I'm not. It's just that I mean this is the only thing about Halloween that I don't like is the import from America of this trick or treat nonsense. [James Whale:] Yep. [Michael:] I don't like that one bit. But leave that to one side [James Whale:] But that's only because it's an [LAUGHTER] American idea that's the only reason you don't like it [] [Michael:] No no I I don't I don't like it er it er no I simply don't like it. I can't really tell you why it's just I don't like the don't like the idea of children going round er begging for treats, treats money whatever it might be. [James Whale:] Yes I agree with you there. [Michael:] But I really to believe that Halloween does has no real influence. There are always exceptions you know to the rule. [James Whale:] Okay Steve thank you for your call. You think it has no problem and er we'll squeeze in one more call before the end of the programme. And that's Christine from Harrogate hello Christine. Hello Christine speak to me. [speaker003:] turn the radio off [James Whale:] You what? You've got to turn the radio off. Have you turned the radio off? Come back to the phone [LAUGHTER] Christine []. Hello Christine. [speaker003:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hi. [speaker003:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hello. [speaker003:] Erm I'm with you on this trick and er treat thing. Now I've heard people [James Whale:] No you're not I'm not going trick or treating. [speaker003:] say that they do this so they can get money for fireworks for Guy Fawkes night. [James Whale:] Have you heard people say that? [speaker003:] He's not answering. [James Whale:] I am I don't know what there's a cut on this. What's where where's where's the where's the cut off come on this flipping phone? [speaker003:] No it isn't [James Whale:] It i hang on I can hear you. Hello can you hear? [speaker003:] Yes. [James Whale:] Is that better? [speaker003:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Okay right off you go. [speaker003:] I well I agree with you on this er trick or treat. Erm people say they come round they come round with their children [James Whale:] Mm. [speaker003:] er mothers to g they say what they don't want treats as in sweets they want money to buy fireworks [James Whale:] And he fixed it [speaker003:] to buy fireworks for bonfire night. [James Whale:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And I disagree that they should. It's begging. [James Whale:] You think it's begging. [speaker003:] Yes. [James Whale:] Yeah. Er I well I agree but I mean parents seem to be quite keen for their er their children to out and do it. [speaker003:] Yes erm but it is begging and it is it is pagan. [James Whale:] Yeah. So you won't be letting yours out? [speaker003:] No. [James Whale:] Okay. [speaker003:] No. [James Whale:] Okay Christine thank you for your call. Bye bye [speaker003:] Bye. [James Whale:] Erm I don't know whether we had gremlins in there or er or not in the end I really couldn't decide actually to be honest. Taking us to the news at two a little music for you and er hopefully I shall return next Saturday at twelve o'clock. Until then from all of us here on the Whales Show on B B C Radio York a very good afternoon to you. Bye bye. [music] Oh did we play this we did didn't we. I didn't mean to play that at all. [music] I think we played this one too. Did we play this one? No we didn't play this one did we? Cos the trouble with C Ds you see you can't see them going round you don't know which one you finished with. [music to end of recording]

[John Humphries:] Good afternoon, and welcome to On The Record. Another seven people murdered in Northern Ireland, a dreadful end to a dreadful week, and yet on Friday there had been at least a little optimism in the air, John Major and Albert Reynolds getting together in Brussels for what were billed as substantive talks, where does all that go now? I'll be talking to John Hume, the leader of the S D L P, according to Mr Major his talks with Gerry Addams are at the end of the road. I'll also be talking to John MacGregor, about the privatization of British Rail, has he really given in to his rebels who want B R to be able to bid for the franchises, or is it all a clever conjuring trick? Have Labours's modernizers run into the buffers? I'll be talking to arch modernizer Harriet Harman, and John Cole takes a sideways look at the Chancellor's dilemma as he prepares his first budget. But first to Northern Ireland. It's difficult, impossible perhaps, for those of us who don't live their to fully understand the sheer horror of it. On a crude arithmetical basis if the same proportion of murders were carried out on the mainland of Britain in relation to the population we'd have had a thousand dead in the past eight days. Unthinkable, no government could allow it to continue and expect to survive. So what is happening to find a political solution? Well John Hume's meetings with Gerry Addams have been overshadowed by that meeting between the prime ministers of Great Britain and the Irish Republic, overshadowed and overtaken, according to Mr Major, I talked about that to John Hume a little earlier this morning, but I began by asking for his reaction to the latest murders. [John Hume:] Well just another appalling slaughter of very innocent people, and it really is quite incredible that the people who carried out these terrible murders said they were doing so as retaliation for similar slaughter of people in the Shankhill Road last week. The people murdered last week were every bit as innocent as were the people in the Shankhill Road, and I would be certain that the families of the people in the Shankhill Road would be horrified that the murder of their loved ones would be used as an excuse as an excuse to do exactly the same to other innocent people. [John Humphries:] You'll have known that pub, of course. [John Hume:] Oh aye, I know that pub well, it's just outside my constituency but it's in the district where it's in the North West, and we all know one another very well there. I haven't heard the names yet, of the people who have lost their lives but I'd be I would be certain that I would know some of them personally. [John Humphries:] Where do we go from here? [John Hume:] Well of course I've been saying for some time now, for some time, and I want to underline that, and I hope the government are listening... that we've had twenty thousand troops on our streets, we've twelve thousand armed policemen on our streets, we have the strictest security laws in Western Europe, and none of these things have solved our problem. The number of people who have died on our streets is equivalent to a hundred thousand people dying in the streets of Britain, if that were happening, then the House of Commons would be packed to the doors everyday, until they got it sorted out. If the Government keeps telling us in every statement they make that we're an integral part of the. I think I'm making my point, I have been saying for some time now that given the fact that all that security hasn't produced the results, the logic of that is dialogue, and when I see the opportunity as I saw it, of dialogue, direct dialogue with Mr Addams that could lead to a total cessation of this violence, I felt it was my duty to do so. That dialogue has lead me to the point of issuing a joint statement with Mr Addams. Now remember I am the leader of a party that has been in the front line against his violence for twenty years, and have been at many risks, as have been members of my party, but when I say that that dialogue is the best hope they've seen for peace for twenty years. And in tha in our statement we say, that we are talking about a process which involves both governments, all parties, and what we're talking about is agreement among the divided people to which all sections can give their loyalty. The least I would expect would be an immediate invitation from the Prime Minister, come and see me, because if it was happening on the streets of any city in Britain and the MP stood up and said what I've said I think he would be in Downing Street within the night. [John Humphries:] And you've not had that invitation? [John Hume:] No. [John Humphries:] Are you awaiting for it? [John Hume:] Well I would expect that the Prime Minister would, I think this nonsense that is behind all this is that because I am talking to Gerry Adams, they don't want to be seen to be talking to me because it looks this fingerprint argument [John Humphries:] Your hands are dirty. [John Hume:] I'm talking about saving human life... governments over the last twenty years, troops over the last twenty years, policemen over the last twenty years, laws over the last twenty years, and politicians, including myself, have all failed in all the efforts that we've made including condemnation of violence, everything, but I am now saying that this dialogue is the best hope I've seen or, surely I'm entitled to say to the Prime Minister, alright given that I have said that why don't you put me to the test? [John Humphries:] But have you not already briefed Mr Major, have you not already briefed Downing Street about those talks, and given that you have, what else is there, what else can you offer Mr Major, that you haven't already offered? [John Hume:] Well, er, I think that both governments have said er in their, and both Prime Ministers, er and I'm glad they met, er that the [John Humphries:] That's Mr Reynolds, I assume. [John Hume:] Yes that they are beginning a process involving both governments and er naturally er I welcome that very much, because I think the attention of both governments would have to be concentrated on this terrible problem, and of course if they take the trouble to read the statement that Mr Addams and I issued that's precisely what we said, that the two governments should begin a process involving all parties. [John Humphries:] So what else do you have to offer then? [John Hume:] I think that both governments are aware of the proposals that emerged from th my dialogue with Mr Addams, and the process that has emerged, that I have said, and he has said is substantial progress towards lasting peace. I want the governments to act on it, and act quickly on it. [John Humphries:] But act on what, do you see, this is what we don't understand? [John Hume:] Sorry, I know you don't understand, and you're not going to understand on this program. [John Humphries:] Why not? [John Hume:] Because er it's a that's that's just the way it has to be for the present, at the end of the [John Humphries:] But does the Government? [John Hume:] Sorry. At the end of the day the whole community has to know what this is all about, but let me stress, there is no threat in this process that is being proposed, to bring about a total cessation of violence, there is no threat to any section of our community, none what so ever. [John Humphries:] Does the Government, does Mr Major [John Hume:] [cough] [John Humphries:] know precisely what went on in your talks with Mr Addams, and does Mr Major approve of what you had agreed, or discussed with Mr Adams? [John Hume:] Well I have no evidence of any description of Mr Majors approval or disapproval [John Humphries:] But does he know? [John Hume:] what he has said is that he, it's a matter for myself to talk to whoever I wish, and that he respects my judgement in these matters, er according to the joint statement issued Mr Reynolds briefed him on his discussions with me on that on that [John Humphries:] Right, he does know. [John Hume:] well, I er it it I am only reading what er their joint statement said. [John Humphries:] And he has said Mr [John Hume:] But I am available. [John Humphries:] But Mr Major has said quite clearly that that process that dialogue between you and Gerry Adams has run it's course. [John Hume:] Yes, he has said that and I am saying, I am saying, as somebody who has been in the front line against this violence, and with due respect to Mr Major knows a little more about it than he does [John Humphries:] So Mr Majors wrong? [John Hume:] I am saying Mr Major, as Prime Minister, if someone in my position is saying I believe, I believe, there is the best opportunity here for lasting peace, by which I mean a total cessation of violence, the least I expect is that you should listen to what I have to say. [John Humphries:] So he, Mr Major, is wrong when he says he believes that that dialogue, that process that you began with Gerry Adams has run its course do you [John Hume:] Well [John Humphries:] believe that there is further that can go and that it should be exploited by Mr Major or Mr Reynolds, or by Mr Major? [John Hume:] well, when I say that it's the best opportunity for peace I've seen in twenty years. If er Mr Major is not going to look at why I say that then I hope that he, I assume from that that he has a better hope of peace an an [John Humphries:] But he's looked at it hasn't he? [John Hume:] I'm sorry, and I'm waiting to hear what it is. [John Humphries:] But he's looked at it, because you have told Albert Reynolds [John Hume:] Well, what, why? [John Humphries:] Albert Reynolds has told the Prime Minister, Mr Major, Mr Major has taken on board, has has considered, presumably, what it is that you've done with Gerry Adams, and concluded that it can go no further. [John Hume:] Well i I'm not aware of how far he has taken anything on board, what I would expect as a Member of Parliament and the House of Commons, and as the leader of a party in the House of Commons, I would expect that he would want to hear what I would have to say face to face, and tell me face to face what's wrong with what I have said. [John Humphries:] Given that he doesn't want to see you and your suspicion is that he doesn't want to see you because you have as it were the fingerprints of Gerry Adams on you now you're tainted because of your relationship with Gerry Adams, what do you now do? Do you have more meetings with Gerry Adams, do you try and to push it forward unilaterally? [John Hume:] I am an elected representative of the people of Northern Ireland, three thousand three hundred of our people have been murdered, that's the equivalent of a hundred thousand people in Britain, it is the responsibility of every elected representative to do everything in their power, everything in their power, to stop that, The least responsibility that they have, the least they can do, is enter into dialogue directly with the people involved and I apologize to no-one for that, and if anybody is telling me that I'm tainted because I do that, you know, I don't know what sort of minds they've got, because I think it's our responsibility to do everything in our power to bring this violence to an end, and what's more, what I'm doing has massive support of ordinary people on both sections of our community because I have never in my twenty years experienced the nature of the support and the way that it's being expressed to me by people in the streets, by telephone, and in particular by [John Humphries:] You [John Hume:] families of those who have lost loved ones, who don't want to see other families going through the suffering that they have gone through. [John Humphries:] You say that, but aren't isn't it th the case that the loyalists, the Protestants in Northern Ireland are terrified of any kind of deal that might involve Gerry Adams because that would be as far as they are concerned the ultimate sell out, and hence there is the danger of growing sectarian violence because of fear? [John Hume:] Well in the first place, I have made clear throughout, and I have a record their of over twenty years that people can have a look at, but I made clear throughout, as has Mr Adams, that we are not engaged in secret deals, secret deals don't solve problems. What we have said we are involved in a process which must involve both governments and all parties, whose objective is agreement among our divided people an agreement which all our traditions must give their allegiance and agreement, and an agreement which must express which which must respect our diversity, now I have kept repeating that statement since we made it and I asked anyone to tell me what they disagree with it, now the loyalist paramilitary some weeks ago said that if the I R A were to k their impression they've given all along is that they're just a reaction to the I R A and if the I R A were to stop they would cease immediately, I immediately put out a statement welcoming that statement by them, I also offered to talk directly to them, but they have refused er given the nature of their campaign, particularly at the moment, I begin to wonder do they want the I R A to stop? Have they some other reason for their resistance but are able to use the I R A as their excuse? [John Humphries:] Whatever Mr Major's motives may be for having concluded that your that the process is at an end that your involvement, effectively, with Gerry Adams is at an end, what about Mr Reynolds' motives? What possible reason might he have for agreeing with Mr Major that the Hume Adams initiative is dead? [John Hume:] Well I have no evidence from either of them, you know, er that er they are slamming the door on my initiative, other than the statement that was issued which if you read it, there's very little in it that you can object to, or that I could object to, which commits them, the two governments to an initiative, and indeed that's what er the last statement that Mr Adams and I issued asked them to do, the only er they also in in their statements say that my actions have been both courageous and imaginative [John Humphries:] But that th the [John Hume:] er but that the that the they're not paying attention to what's coming out of it [John Humphries:] But you clearly don't believe that that statement, the the Reynolds Major statement goes far enough. [John Hume:] Well er n well oh f I'm not saying that er i I'm available. [John Humphries:] John Hume. [John Hume:] That's what I'm saying. [John Humphries:] John Hume. Tomorrow the Transport Secretary John MacGregor reintroduces the bill to privatize British Rail to the House of Commons, it had a rough journey through the House of Lords and until late last week it looked set for a stormy passage through the Commons too, but then Mr MacGregor introduced a series of amendments that everyone assumes will satisfy the rebellious Tory MP s, but as Michael Gold reports, there are still obstacles for Mr MacGregor to surmount. [speaker003:] Train now approaching platform two is the twelve fifty three service from Glasgow Central. [Michael Gold:] It's been a bumpy ride, but the bill to privatize British Rail is almost at the end of its long parliamentary journey [bagpipes] but the battle isn't over yet, earlier this week hundreds of protestors from a variety of backgrounds gave up a day and travelled from the North to carry their defiant message to Transport Secretary John MacGregor. It was railway workers who were in the vanguard of the protest, worried about job losses and safety, but Middle England was also on the march, concerned that services might suffer, polls indicate that four out of five voters oppose the sell off. [speaker005:] It's ridiculous, I don't think they really realize what they're doing. [speaker006:] You cannot privatize British Rail, it cannot be done. [speaker007:] It's only a few people at this moment in this country, that does believe in railway privatization, and that is the Department of Transport. [speaker008:] Leave the railways with British Rail, and put the money in that they would spend on privatization to improve the service for all of us, and keep it as a national railway, please. [Michael Gold:] Why is the Government embarking on such an apparently unpopular privatization? Some Tories think it's a sop to the right from a weakened premier, the Government insist that the sell off is the best way to attract investment from the private sector into the railways, but there are signs that the break up of B R isn't proving as attractive to outside investors as the government hoped. Mayfair's Park Lane Hotel, art deco rendezvous for London's deal- makers. [speaker009:] Would you like coffee, sir? [speaker010:] Coffee, sir? [John Humphries:] Er white, please. [Michael Gold:] This week it was the venue for a gathering of bankers, managers, and academics, exploring the future of transport. Few at this conference were a-quiver at the prospect of bidding for the Tilbury to Southend line. Among the experts who were there was Professor Bill Bradshaw. [John Hume:] My name's Bradshaw. [speaker003:] Good morning. [Michael Gold:] The Professor was advisor to the Tory dominated Transport Committee, and he's convinced the sell off will be a turn off. [John Hume:] The private sector cannot invest in the circumstances set out in the bill, because they need very long franchises with control of all the means of production, the track, the trains, the stations, the total business. That is not provided in the bill, the private sector will not invest, and our railways will go on getting more unreliable. [Michael Gold:] The business men and boffins here have made money moving people from A to B across the globe, but very few of the governments they've advised have ever tried to privatize their railways, and none have tried in quite the manner Mr MacGregor proposes. One man who is used to spending millions helping finance transport projects is Frank Borgus, he's helped oversee privatizations in the U S but from his perspective the B R sell off doesn't look attractive. [speaker003:] What you need to do is to be able to provide a private sector a certain level of certainty, that the concession will be er granted long enough so that one can recover both your costs anand certainly be able to to make a profit and so er to the extent that the franchises that are being considered are short natured, seven years, er that becomes rather disadvantageous and unattractive er concessions of twenty and thirty and forty years, and and really thirty thirty to forty year period er do make it in fact make it very attractive for private sector involvement. [Michael Gold:] That might seem to leave the Government in the dark, but they're confident they know where there going. British Rail employees and managers will borrow cash, so the Government hopes, in order to buy profitable services, like the East Coast mainline from their employers. Getting their hands on their own trains might seem attractive, but any manager tempted would be taking a big risk. [John Hume:] The prospects for management buy-outs are really very bleak, the reason for that is that the franchises which we're hearing about are likely to be very short, the franchisee will own no assets, no land, no rolling stock, nothing with which to go to the bank as security for loan. At the end of the franchise period he will have nothing to sell, so I cannot see how people could go away and borrow the working capital with which to run a business. [Michael Gold:] The profitability of flagship lines like the Gatwick Express sustains the Government's belief there will be management buy-outs. Few managers would think of embarking on such a course if they faced competition from B R itself, that's why the Government originally barred B R from bidding. However, when the bill reached the upper house Lord Paignton amended it to let B R bid, for two reasons. [speaker005:] First because it er offers the Government quite a good reason for dropping the bill altogether, er a er and bowing to parliamentary opinion in doing so that's not a shameful thing to do, er if it had been able to do that on the other hand it would have the benefit of inincorporating in its own proposals a measure of continuity and experience which are no there already. [Michael Gold:] The Lord's vote had reverberations along the corridor at Westminster, a number of MP s hitherto quietly concerned about privatization now went public, they thought the Lords vote would take the sting out of the sell off because B R would win most of the bids, ministers vowed to defy the rebels, but just before the bill left the Lords the Government seemed to cave in. [speaker005:] Your Lordships will be aware that the Government has been giving careful consideration to the issue of whether B R should be a franchisee in the light of the noble lord Lord Paignton's amendment, agreed at committee stage. Clearly my right honourable friend the secretary of state will want to hear the views of another place, but I can say that he will not be recommending that the amendment should be overturned. [Michael Gold:] Even as Lord Caithness seemed to buckle the Government were tabling their own amendments to fix the odds against B R bids a finesse, but the rebels bought it. [speaker006:] I want to see the er possibility of British Rail being able to say, well you know we could improve our act, we could do things differently, and er we we wou we have experience of running a railway, and therefore, you know, please let us bid. That's why I thought it was wrong that er British Rail should not be allowed to bid, and I think that the Government's compromise is a very sensible one. [Michael Gold:] It was passengers who were supposed to benefit from Lord Paignton's amendment, the rebels think they've safeguarded the spirit of that vote, but experts disagree. [speaker007:] The amendment the Government has put forward does not hold out much real hope for B R managers about remaining in the medium or long term in charge of viable business, to that extent the amendment does not carry out what I believe was the intention of Lord Paignton in in moving the amendment. [Michael Gold:] So Mr MacGregor's hard work may yet come to grief, even if he sorts that problem out there's another obstacle to privatization running smoothly, many on the railways think the private sector will need a generous subsidy before they'd be interested, if their not attracted the state will have to spend more to make the new structure work, a lot more. On The Record's obtained a paper prepared by a committee including senior civil servants and the Treasury and Transport Department, called the Restructuring Working Group, the report forecasts an increase in the amount of taxpayer's money subsidizing the railways, this year it will be eight hundred and fifty million pounds, after privatization, the paper says, the central government grant requirement would total some two billion pounds in nineteen ninety four ninety five. By owning the track and leasing the trains the Government can recoup some money, but will that calm Tories who see millions spent on privatization while other budgets are cut. Mr MacGregor's avoided one collision with his back benchers, but when they realize the bills cost and consider how B R 's been dealt with the question is, will they think again? [John Humphries:] Well, will they, Mr MacGregor? Have you, or have you not, please, accepted the Paignton amendment? [speaker008:] Well firstly the bill didn't have that rough a passage in the House of Lords, because there are only two basic amendments, er that we're dealing with in the House of Commons that matter, and one of them is the one you've just mentioned, the answer to it is this, er I've had a lot of criticisms of giving B R the untrammelled right to bid, er right from the outset their criticisms to do with the danger that you wouldn't get competition for the franchises the private sector would be afraid, and incidentally this is not a sell off it's it's a way of getting the private sector into British Rail with all the advantages that brings, they would be afraid that they would face subsidized and unfair competition, above all, perhaps, British Rail gemanagement would feel if they were bidding against their employer that would be a real discouragement to bid, and we've a lot of evidence er that they feel that and that there are many who do wish to bid in managementemployee buy outs, so what we've done in the amendment is we've preserved the right for British Rail to bid, but we've dealt with those criticisms and worries which have come from a lot of quarters not least from within British Rail itself. [John Humphries:] So, have you accepted the Paignton amendment? [speaker008:] I have accepted part of it, and I've amended it to ensure that we can overcome the criticisms er that would have been involved if we'd left it er as it was, er and above all, and I think this is the most important thing, we've made sure that it will work, er and that it will meet our objectives of getting competition into the franchises, if we'd just ended up with one great monolithic British Rail, after all each franchise remember will be coming gradually, they won't be doing them all at once, there will be one next year, several the year after, and so on, if British Rail had been able to go around and pick them off, and say, Well we can run this now in the future much better than we've done it in the past, so we'll bid, and we'll bid a low bid, that really wouldn't have been getting fair and proper competition into the system, so what i what I've done is ensured, as I've done all the way through in this bill in accepting amendments, that we make sure we achieve our objectives, and that above all it's workable, the, as it was it wouldn't as it was the Paignton amendment wouldn't have been workable, because there would have been total chaos and confusion [John Humphries:] Alright but [speaker008:] within British Rail itself. [John Humphries:] The reality is that you've said to British Rail, you can bid for those franchises that nobody else wants [speaker008:] The [John Humphries:] which is the situation anyway, because if people if nobody had bid British Rail would would have continued to [speaker008:] Well, well [John Humphries:] run them anyway. [speaker008:] of course that is a point that we've made all the way through, it's not if nobody would bid, it's if the franchising director was not satisfied with the quality or the long term viability of the bids he'd received [John Humphries:] Yes [speaker008:] or didn't think they were [John Humphries:] Comes down to the same thing in the end. [speaker008:] Or they weren't, or, you see the other important point here is that British Rail will be restructuring all the twenty five potential passenger franchises, they're starting on this now [John Humphries:] They've just finished one restructuring. [speaker008:] they will then they will, they've just started actually [John Humphries:] But they've finished one. [speaker008:] No, well the key point is the key point is that they they have to have a period during which they have a track record of running those separate businesses, so that bidders will know the basis on which their bidding, now if if the franchising director, it's entirely his decision, decides that er he's not getting competitive enough bids or good enough bids, then yes British Rail would carry on, and this was clear right from the outset, would carry on running that particular [John Humphries:] Right, so you actually [speaker008:] franchise, so the difference the difference now, is that they will be able er in some, certain circumstances to come in and bid directly at the outset. [John Humphries:] But only if the franchise director decides that there is not a viable bid from the private sector or from B R management. [speaker008:] Only if he feels that a private sector or B R management would be er frightened off bidding, and he knew that there were viable bids in play [John Humphries:] Yes, precisely. [speaker008:] and if he feels it would not [John Humphries:] But [speaker008:] lead to proper competition, that's correct. [John Humphries:] So let so nothing in reality has changed, has it? [speaker008:] Oh I'm quite sure there will be situations in which er British Rail will bid, and will, well it's up to the franchising director, but is likely to get the franchise, there will be situations. [John Humphries:] But then even if they do that and even if they get the franchise, they're not going to be able to say, we can now hold on to it for five, or seven, years, however long the franchise is going to be, because if another bidder comes along in the meantime and says, we rather like this ourselves, they'll be thrown off. [speaker008:] No, if they bid for the franchise, then, and get it, obviously that franchise runs for the period, and by the way, a lot of the criticisms in the film, I think were based on a misunderstanding that all the franchises are going to be short, they're not, those where there's a substantial investment going in can be quite a bit longer [John Humphries:] Well well how long, how long? [speaker008:] Oh ou we haven't, it would depend on the market place, on the reaction. [John Humphries:] But but I mean are we talking about really [speaker008:] We could be talking of ten years and beyond, er beyond ten years. [John Humphries:] What, twenty years? [speaker008:] I doubt it, we no we wouldn't wish to go to, I don't think, to twenty years, er but it would depend on the level [John Humphries:] Tha tha that's interesting [speaker008:] it will it will depend on the level of investment that the bidder is prepared to put in we're being very flexible, responding to the market forces [John Humphries:] So that it might be then [speaker008:] But [John Humphries:] fifteen years, let's say where we've [speaker008:] Yes. [John Humphries:] been talking until now about seven years, we might be talking about fifteen years. [speaker008:] Well some people have been talking about five to seven years, I've been saying all the way through that we're very flexible on this, and clearly if erm a bidder whether it's a management buy out with other people in the bid, others in the consortium, or an outright bid from a private sector consortium er if if they get the franchise and make clear that that's on the basis that they're going to put a lot of money into the capital investment, then clearly they will want a longer period and we have made that clear. [John Humphries:] Well I may have missed something you've said, but I haven't heard you say fifteen years before. [speaker008:] I've said quite often that ga it could be [John Humphries:] I mean [speaker008:] flexible to a certainly to ten, and in the right circumstances beyond that. [John Humphries:] So I can take it as as gospel this morning that some of these franchises will be fifteen years, how many might be fifteen years, might they all be fifteen years? [speaker008:] If, if, if, they are prepared... if they're prepared to put sufficient funding in er into the capital investment side. [John Humphries:] So if they all come along with lots and lots of money they'll all have fifteen years. [speaker008:] Well now you see, I don't think they'll do that, because another, another, another, [John Humphries:] I'm sure they won't from what we've been told. [speaker008:] another mistake in the film was to suggest that in a a short franchise, say of seven years they would need a great deal of working capital, but they won't need a great deal of working capital or or share capital, they will actually be running a business where they get subsidy, because if er they're involving socially necessary lines, like commuter lines, or or rural lines, then we've made it very clear er that the taxpayers subsidy will continue, because these are loss making businesses, they will be bid they will bid for subsidy, and they will continue to get that subsidy, so they will have the flow of whatever income they can increase, in the passenger franchise, plus the subsidy, plus, and this is a very important point in what we're doing in the restructuring of British Rail, you see, nobody up till now has said that British Rail is perfect, everyone acknowledges that there are big improvements to be made, the way we're structuring it will get those improvements because the smaller franchises, not the great big monolithic nationalized industry, the smaller units,ha will be able to identify much more clearly where they can make the savings and where they can increase the revenue. [John Humphries:] But they won't be able to deal with their main sources of production, as er Professor Bradshaw said there, they're going to have absolutely you've got no control over the track on on which they operate, and they ar going to have to hire their carriages from and rolling stock from a separate leasing company, so their room for manoeuvre is limited to say the least. [speaker008:] That's, that's, that's in a very small, er short franchise which is very similar to operators in other [John Humphries:] What so they [speaker008:] passeng in in other in other transport areas [John Humphries:] So that if it's a fifteen-year [speaker008:] but you see it, I me [John Humphries:] franchise, they may actually get, I'm I'm [speaker008:] They [John Humphries:] I'm very puzzled by this now so I ask for clarification, if it's a long franchise then, if it's a fifteen year franchise, are you saying that the franchisee will have control over the track? And over the rolling stock? [speaker008:] They may, let me just explain the track then, in those situations they may well be investing in the depots, maintenance and so on, but let me just [John Humphries:] And the track? [speaker008:] let me just go beyond [John Humphries:] So but but just answer that bit first, so I'm clear [speaker008:] not, not, not on the track as not on [John Humphries:] Right so, so [speaker008:] the track as such, can I just explain the position on the [John Humphries:] Alright. [speaker008:] track, because it it, no other transport business er has er does has to have a business, which op owns both the track it's operating on and the operating er facilities themselves, so the we're not doing anything new here, what we are actually doing, and incidentally the German government and other governments are going down the same route now because it's not true to say that others aren't privatizing, what we're doing is saying that we are having a separate track authority, and there are a variety of reasons for that, er but the an and that means actually less investment by the franchisee himself, but he will have control over the th the track operations, because he will have a contract, with Rail Track, to deliver certain services, and if Rail Track doesn't deliver them then he's able to claim penalties so [John Humphries:] But he [speaker008:] he will have the same relationship as so many other companies have er in relationship to other services they need to operate their business. [John Humphries:] Let's just consider the political problem though you have still got a problem selling it to a lot of MP s, if they're listening to this interview and they are concluding, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, that actually things aren't changing very much, and they may think they've been sold a pup with these amendments, indeed I hear that some of them have had to be bought off, well, is it true that one of them was sent off to Peru on an on an election er supervision mission in order that he might not be around when the bill came up. [speaker008:] He's, he's actually going to be there to to vote for the bill [LAUGHTER] vote for the amendment [John Humphries:] But was he, he was sent off to Peru as a sweetener, was he? [speaker008:] well there are, no, no, because he's going to be there to vote, but on, on [John Humphries:] Yes [speaker008:] Can I deal with your main point, er and in's very important, er, to understand this, er, the vast majority of the parliamentary party supports strongly what we're doing, because they believe it will improve passenger services, it will deal with getting freight on, more freight on to rail, now they they backed it throughout the party conference backed it almost unanimously [John Humphries:] Alright,n [speaker008:] what we're dealing with is a small group of MP s who thought there were some advantages in the Paignton amendment I've discussed it very thoroughly with them for some time, and they agree that there were real difficulties about the Paignton amendment which I've now addressed [John Humphries:] Okay, let me talk about money then, do [speaker008:] so there are an awful lot of people, let me say, there is th it is a complete falsehood to suggest that the parliamentary party isn't behind the bill [John Humphries:] Okay, money [speaker008:] we had a meeting earlier this week were I got huge support, indeed some were urging me not to give way at all on the Paignton amendment. [John Humphries:] Money. Two billion pounds, it's going to cost you, going to cost us, the taxpayers. [speaker008:] I, that, there have been endless position papers in the department and I haven't actually seen that one [John Humphries:] Well, here it is. [speaker008:] the I don't [John Humphries:] You haven't seen it? It's, it's, it's, it's a committee that you set up, the Restructuring Working Group that that your department set up. [speaker008:] But they do loads of that way way down in preparing all these things, and loads and loads of different views expressed at different times, I deal with actually the recommendations er as we get to the point of decision, but on the on the investment point [John Humphries:] Well is it true, or is it not true that it is going to cost an extra tw, total, I'm sorry, not an extra, total of two billion pounds. [speaker008:] No I don't recognize that figure although it it er it what matters, is that we continue [John Humphries:] Well that's not quite the same as saying it isn't true, if I can just push you on that a little bit, you [speaker008:] Well [John Humphries:] say you don't recognize it, is it true? Now that I know that [speaker008:] For, for ninety four, ninety five [John Humphries:] and I've told you where it's come from, can you say that is too much [speaker008:] It is not necessary, to have it on that scale er in nineteen ninety four ninety five [John Humphries:] That's not the same as saying it isn't true is it? [speaker008:] it isn't necessary, well it is the same as saying it isn't true, it isn't necessary er because this will be built up over a period and it will be for er the Government in all the normal ways in the public expenditure round to decide how much goes into the passenger franchises and through that therefore into the Briti the Rail Track investment. [John Humphries:] Either way it's going to be an awful [speaker008:] But [John Humphries:] lot more than eight [speaker008:] But [John Humphries:] hundred and fifty million pounds, isn't it? [speaker008:] But can I just make the point that we have been investing a great deal in British Rail, and the idea that er all over the piece we're talking about non-modernized railways simply not true. Eight hundred million on the East Coast main line, four hundred million for rolling stock announced this week, four hundred million in new contracts, there's a lot of money going in right now. [John Humphries:] The ex the extra cost of privatization is going to be one heck of a lot more than than without any privatization, in that year we're talking about immediately, is it not? [speaker008:] No it's certainly not, in nineteen ninety four ninety five, certainly not. [John Humphries:] Not going to be more than eight hundred and fifty? [speaker008:] Because were on not going to be of the scale that you were suggesting [John Humphries:] Well [speaker008:] for the very simple reason that we will at most have one franchise in er nineteen ninety four, ninety five [John Humphries:] Well [speaker008:] and so there will only be one franchise, this will build up gradually. [John Humphries:] Well let me quote to you what your own document says, on [speaker008:] I, I [John Humphries:] the best view we have at the moment transfer of service from B R to franchises is likely to increase the subsidy requirement for the service in question a large upward leap in nineteen ninety four ninety five, now this is your own document and attending these on er on [speaker008:] I, I [John Humphries:] on this restructuring group it's British Rail, it's the Treasury, it's the Department of Transport, it's the franchise director. [speaker008:] It is that is a paper from somebody, I know not who, but can I just explain, if we're having one franchise passenger service next year, which is pretty well all you can do because you do need to have that record, track record, the business operating as a separate business before bidders can bid, if we're having one next year, to suggest as I think the quote was, that the that would cost about one point two billion pounds is ridiculous, it's ridiculous, a single, a single, [John Humphries:] What your group's quote, not mine, well must tell them then, will you go in tomorrow morning and say redo this working paper? [speaker008:] a single passenger service costing that amount of money, absolutely not. [John Humphries:] Well where did they suck it from then, I mean I [speaker008:] Don't ask me. [John Humphries:] know it's it's it's not something that I've put together. [speaker008:] But it isn't actually the real point, the real point is that we will continue, well it [John Humphries:] Oh it's a very important point, isn't it, if it's going to cost a great deal more to push privatization through when you've got a fifty billion overspend anyway, I'd have thought people who were worried about V A T on fuel would say that is a very significant point. [speaker008:] But it isn't because I've just said to you several times that one point two billion for a single franchise is absolutely ridiculous. [John Humphries:] Well, give me a figure then. [speaker008:] It will be, it will depend on the bidding but it [John Humphries:] Alright. [speaker008:] for and we will continue the subsidies to the passenger service [John Humphries:] Right. [speaker008:] individual franchises will vary, depending on how successful they are and what the bids are [John Humphries:] Final very [speaker008:] but it won't be that scale. [John Humphries:] Final very quick question, reports in the paper this morning that Chunnel, the the channel tunnel, the high speed link, and the tunnel itself are going to be delayed because the Treasury basically saying, we've run out of money, you can't do it, is that true? Delayed until two thousand and five, maybe. [speaker008:] The point about two thousand and five is complete speculation. [John Humphries:] So is the main report true? only got a few seconds, I'm sorry. [speaker008:] Let me tell let me tell you exactly Jubilee line is going ahead, er very large sums of money in the next three years [John Humphries:] Yes, lets talk about talk about channel tunnel high [speaker008:] We [John Humphries:] speed link. [speaker008:] The Cross-Rail and channel tunnel high speed link are at nothing like the state of preparedness of Jubilee Line, that's going ahead now after a lot of work, er th it it will not be the case er it that you can do either of those very quickly, Cross-Rail's only just started going through the House of Commons. [John Humphries:] So there is going to be a delay. [speaker008:] So, we can't tell what the final deadline date will be because there are so many pro processes, to go through. [John Humphries:] John MacGregor, thank you very much indeed. Yesterday the Labour coordinating committee met for its annual get together, now this is the body that has set itself the task of modernizing the Labour Party, a difficult task at the best of times, made more difficult now because there is a growing shortage of volunteers for the cause, they can't even raise enough members to fill their own executive. Earlier this morning I suggested to arch modernizer Harriet Harman that she and her reforming colleagues had run into the buffers. [speaker009:] Absolutely not, I think there's a strong sense in the Party that moving forward with our traditional values, that what we have to do is to apply those traditional values to a very changed world, things are very different now from when the Labour Party was formed, or even from when the Labour Party was last in government, so that we keep our sense of values, they are what grounds us, but what makes us an effective government in the future is the fact that we are moving forward with the times, and the increasing representation of women is one of the things which is about moving us forward, and moving with the times. [John Humphries:] Talk about the increasing representation of women, there were meant to be more women in the shadow cabinet with the elections for the shadow cabinet produced a disaster for women didn't it? [speaker009:] They were abs [John Humphries:] a disaster for you. [speaker009:] They were absolutely not a disaster for women, obviously I would have preferred to stay on the shadow cabinet, but we have three women in the shadow cabinet, and we have a number of women in senior positions outside the shadow cabinet. [John Humphries:] You'd like to have more. [speaker009:] Well the trend though over all is absolutely clear, that the Labour Party is committed to increasing women's representation and is absolutely on that path, we've more Labour women MP s and increasing numbers of women in the shadow cabinet it's only in the end of the nineteen eighties, as recently as then, that we had no women in the shadow cabinet, now everybody agrees that it would look quite wrong not to have women in the shadow cabinet, we've got a woman deputy leader, three women in the shadow cabinet, and therefore we're definitely moving forward. [John Humphries:] You say the Labour Party is agreed that there should be more women in the shadow cabinet, but which is this Labour Party then, the parliamentary Labour Party certainly isn't, there was a conspiracy to keep women out. [speaker009:] I don't think there was a conspiracy to keep [John Humphries:] Well Anne Clywd does. [speaker009:] Well I don't [John Humphries:] Lots of other people do. [speaker009:] No, I think that we would have liked to have seen more women, I would have liked to have stayed on the Shadow Cabinet, and I would have liked to have seen more women in the Shadow Cabinet, but to say it's a disaster, and somehow we've moved away from the path we've set ourself is simply not the case. [John Humphries:] Alright, let me substitute setback, for disaster then, how about that? [speaker009:] Well I think it's it's a hiccup, nothing more, but I think the trend is clearly established, and it's very much agreed, it's recognized in the Labour Party, that the world outside has changed, women are now half the workforce, women are now half the college and university graduates, women's work now represents forty percent of our G D P, so we have to increase women's representation to recognize the world has changed. [John Humphries:] Why isn't that message getting across to the P L P then? Or to the er to the gentlemen in the P L P? [speaker009:] Well I think that message is getting across to the P L P and we've seen more women coming into the House of Commons, sitting on the Labour benches at the last general election, but there also is a sense that the progress, although it's being made, needs to be speeded up, because when you have profound social changes outside the House of Commons, with a change in women's role in society, a change in women's role in the Labour force, and a change in women's role in the family as well, you can't allow your parliament to lag behind. [John Humphries:] So bearing all that in mind then, you sent exactly the wrong signal, didn't you with the elections to the Shadow Cabinet? [speaker009:] Well I think that it is possible that as a result of the reporting of the Shadow Cabinet elections, that the sense was out in the public that somehow this was a setback for women, and that Labour [John Humphries:] It was, wasn't it? [speaker009:] no, because the point is that Labour has not changed it's course, which is recognizing that at the heart of it's policies we have to show that we know the world has changed, and we've got a message to women, which is that we know that you are essential in your role in the family, but we know you're also essential in the economy, [John Humphries:] But, but [speaker009:] and as bread winners for your family, and the way we do that is making sure that we have a parliamentary Labour Party of men and women, and that we're a party of men and women at all levels, and all [John Humphries:] But it's what [speaker009:] and all Labour MP s would agree with that. [John Humphries:] But it's what, well would they? I mean it's one thing [speaker009:] Yes, I think they would. [John Humphries:] to have a course, but if the crew on that particular ship mutinies, as they did during the last er Shadow Cabinet, then you're in trouble, aren't you? I mean look,for forgetting the women, but just look look at who else did well in those elections and who did less well, you had the modernizers doing less well, the Tony Blairs and the Gordon Browns, and you had the traditionalists, or the perceived traditionalists if you prefer, er the John Prescotts, for instance, and the Frank Dobsons doing extremely well. [speaker009:] Well I think it's not helpful to look at it with such stark divisions, I think everybody's clear [John Humphries:] But those are the realities. [speaker009:] No they're not the realities, because what we're saying is that we have to modernize the policies of the Labour Party, but the policies are absolutely based in our traditional concerns, I mean, let me give you an example, when Beveridge was talking about unemployment, and the life long need for people to work, he was talking about a male workforce, where it was a man supported by a non-working wife, now we still have at the absolute heart of our concerns in the Labour Party peoples need to work, but we're now talking about a situation, where women are sharing with their husbands the role of bed breadwinner, and in many families the woman is the sole breadwinner, and therefore our policies about employment and the economy recognize that the world has changed, our principles are the same, but the world to which we're applying it is very different, and, again, on that you see there would be no distinction between the so-called traditionalists and the so-called modernizers. [John Humphries:] Well then what explains the er the rise and rise of the so-called traditionalists and the falling back of the so-called modernizers. [speaker009:] Well I just think it's not helpful to look at it in those terms, you don't actually, if you pick [John Humphries:] Well it... it may not be helpful, but it is the reality, isn't it? [speaker009:] Well no it isn't, no, no. [John Humphries:] You can't close your eyes and say, it isn't there, if I don't look it'll go away. [speaker009:] No it's not, because it simply attaches labels to the people and doesn't understand what's going on, [John Humphries:] Ah, but [speaker009:] and [John Humphries:] the real politics of it is that those labels are attached, and you know that as well as I do. [speaker009:] No, what we have to look at is not the labels which are attached to each individuals, but say do we have [John Humphries:] Mhm. [speaker009:] a good team of people in the Shadow Cabinet, do we have an excellent team i people in the parliamentary Labour Party, do we know where we've come from, and do no we know where we're going, and we do. [John Humphries:] Right, now will let m l Let me ask you where you are going then as far as the Party's own constitution is concerned, we saw a development, a significant development that I no doubt you would say at the Labour Party conference er er down in Brighton, but not withstanding O M O B the trade unions still have one third of the votes in the selection of the leader of the party, seventy percent say on policy matters at conference, there is still a trade union block vote. That isn't a modern party, is it? [speaker009:] Well it certainly is, and we think that we've had an examin of our co, examination of the constitution, we've made a number of changes, but the task for Labour now is to press on with the issues of looking at our policies, and making sure that our economic policy and our social policy a actually meets the changes that are out their in the world. [John Humphries:] So that's it, that's, so that's it then for the modernization of the Party's constitution, we we what happened at Brighton was the end of the process was it? What we've got now is what we're going to have in another ten years time? [speaker009:] Well I think people think that a certain amount of time and attention has to be devoted to the Party's constitution, and there are two things that arose out of the conference in Brighton. One member, one vote, for the selection of Labour members of parliament, but also increasing the representation of women, now people want to move on from that, they want a [John Humphries:] In what direction? [speaker009:] well, they want us to move on to developing the policies which have addressed the changed world. [John Humphries:] Ah, so that's it for the Party, though is it? [speaker009:] Well [John Humphries:] That, that the change to the constitution has ch that's it, all done. [speaker009:] Well I think people are settled on the changes that have been made, and want to move on, and I don't think [John Humphries:] Right, so the answer to my question, of I may just th th clarify this, the answer to my question is, yes that is it now, we have finished with the modernizing of the Party itself, lets forget about policies for one moment, we'll come back to that, but we have finished with the modernizing of the Party. [speaker009:] I think that people don't want to see any more constitutional changes, but there are many more changes in the culture, in the way the Party operates at local, regional, and national level, which we will be addressing, but what we're not going to have is more constitutional changes, because people feel that we've made changes, we have moved the Party forward, we're clear the direction we're going in, and now the Party at all levels wants to address itself not only to building our membership, but also to showing how the policies we've got meet the changed world outside. [John Humphries:] So it's okay in a modern Labour Party for the trades unions to have what is effectively still a block vote? [speaker009:] Well, certainly people are satisfied with where we've got to and want to draw a line underneath it and move on from there, and I think the prospect of going back to the constitution er issues, and they m once again being a key focus, I don't think anyone in the Party, or outside the Party, sees the Labour Party wanting to devote itself to that at this time. [John Humphries:] Alright, policies then, the economy. Erm Gordon Brown is giving in, is he not to pressure from the traditionalists, when it comes to soaking the rich, or soaking the middle class, he's now saying, well maybe there will be a bit of soaking the rich, or soaking the middle class, whereas he wanted to say, and you wanted him to say, no we're not going to do that, we moved away from that. [speaker009:] No, what we're saying is two things, firstly that we are not in favour of taxation for taxation's sake [John Humphries:] Well no party is. [speaker009:] it's not a reflex action that the Labour Party somehow engages in, but there are things that we need to rave raise revenue for, such as investment in the economy, like our social policies, and that the way that we will raise revenue is that we we will have a fair taxation system, that is very straightforward, and agreed by the Party, unlike the Conservatives who firstly don't recognize there is any purpose in investment in the economy, public investment, or investment in social policies they don't agree with, and secondly, when they do have to raise money they do it in the unfairest possible way, penalizing most those who can least [John Humphries:] Let [speaker009:] afford it. [John Humphries:] Let me just suggest to you that you are sending all the wrong signals on women, on Party constitution, on economic matters, on policy matters, the modernizers have lost the impetus, they're sending the wrong signals. The Party is sending the wrong signals. [speaker009:] I think it's absolutely not the case to say that we're sending the wrong signals, I think there's a recognition in the country that the economy has been mismanaged, and the price that's being exacted by people is too high, high levels of unemployment, low levels of growth, and social services undermined, and people recognize that Labour is setting out a new way forward. [John Humphries:] Harriet Harman. And now John Cole on the options facing the Chancellor in his first budget, one month from now. [speaker010:] This year's battle of the budget is generating more anguish than any for years, John Major's cabinet now realize what a parliamentary mess December might turn into with week-long debates on both the Queen's speech and the budget to pack in, and worse to come in the spring, a budget combining taxes with public spending seemed a good idea at the time Norman Lamont announced it, but with November the thirtieth just a month away the political down-side is appearing, of course with a fifty billion pound deficit in the Government's accounts this years spending round would have been hard pounding anyhow, but the usual noisy haggle over the available cash among departments is now amplified by posses of Tory backbenchers trying to head off this or that tax increase, and there's an incentive to keep that up right through the finance bill after Christmas, since most new taxes would not come in until April. A phrase from the Conservative's manifesto last year, we are the only party that understands the need for low taxation, has now returned to haunt them, for an MP in a marginal constituency this evokes the electoral ghost of George Bush, so he firmly rules out increases in income tax, but wouldn't mind putting V A T on newspapers and books. But would it be within the spirit of the manifesto to murmur, read my lips, no more direct taxes? Really, he says, people don't notice V A T so much, others believe income tax will have to take some of the strain, but not by putting up the rates, that would be too blatant. The best bet is that the Chancellor will confine higher allowances against tax to the lowest grade, thus asking the better off to pay a bit more. On the spending side, with the total fixed, the game this year is robbing Peter to pay Paul, or rather, to pay Malcolm. Defence Secretary Rifkind is reported to be grateful for support from the fourteen military minded Conservatives whose confidential letter to the Prime Minister was somehow left lying on a copying machine for a Labour researcher to find, but he is irritated by the leak, an insider murmurs that Malcolm's notching up black marks for the future. Peter Lilley as a right winger has to combine his reputation as a zealous cutter of the state sector with a departmental budget that eats up to forty percent of the hole, one MP groans, rather inconsequentially, a weeks social security payments would buy a warship, even Kenneth Clark and Michael Portillo, sharpening their axes have to admit that Lilley did not exactly invent unemployment personally, but the burgeoning budget for invalidity benefit, together with much anecdotal evidence, suggest that somebody in Whitehall, well before his time, decided to cut the unemployment figures artificially by allowing, even encouraging people with little hope of jobs to remember that troublesome pain in their backs, and in the process get better benefits. But cutting this benefit will throw up hard cases, what worries a Tory elder is the way younger MP s approach the decision whether to support the Government on a pick and mix principle, he says, they no longer see the need to take the rough with smooth, to vote for the things they detest as well as those they like. According to one loyalist thirties thirty or so of his colleagues think it's more fun to vote against the Government, a smaller number go further, they think a spell in opposition might enhance their own careers. But a member of the cynical tendency jeers that after all this brouhaha, a Prime Minister who's obsessed with political safety, will only allow minor pain, though back benchers will be encouraged to squeal so as to impress the markets. But what, he demands, about the panic when interest rates go up to fund the deficit, and the City begins to think that Labour will win. A former senior minister who has been through many spending rounds says we take them all much too seriously, they are merely a mating ritual, he says, adding, and a barren one at that, no offspring. Well you can tell that to the Treasury, or to the Marines. [John Humphries:] John Cole. That's it for this week, until next week at the same time, good afternoon.

[speaker001:] Can you tell me of your first involvement with the support group? [speaker002:] Well back in September... a few weeks after the quarry men first came out on strike... a few of us went up to the picket line, a few of the women. We were quite aware that the er quarry men... well then there were fifty three out on strike er fifty men and three women, very much wanted to er t well play it their way in a sense. They didn't er they they weren't used to industrial action I think it's fair to say... and er they didn't want they weren't quite sure whether you know they they might be taken over by cert well certain political f factions if you like. So I think you know we were all very ware aware of that of people that were had been active in the miner's strike. I was Secretary of the miner's support group that was set up in Blaenau during the year long miner's s strike where we collected a lot of food and twinned with a town down in South Wales and made a lot of new friends. And we used to er do a food run down and they used to come up and erm... And then we went along to a to a lodge meeting th the men invited us along [LAUGHTER] and I remember one of the comments back in September from one of the men was, Oh well I'm gonna be nagged back to work soon. And er [LAUGHTER] I think i we thought from that well why not set up a women's support group and er see what the reaction was really from from the women you know and an I and we said in that lodge meeting will you ask everybody all the women that you know that er are involved, the friends the girlfriends and wives, to come along the next Tuesday and we'd have a meeting of our own. And that's how it started and it was really just you know we said we'd do a bit of fund raising and I think the men were pretty [LAUGHTER] sceptical [] of you know they thi they thought we might fight over the first tin of beans or [LAUGHTER] whatever []. And erm... I think they've been I think they've changed really over the months I think all of us have as well and erm... well that's how it started anyway. [speaker001:] W w when you first er when you first went up onto the picket lines erm h how m many of you w were there then? [speaker002:] Ah this was really just Yona and and me you know I mean... Yona obviously felt very strongly about her father standing in the rain on the picket line worked hard all his life an it had come to this really being sacked er they were just newly sacked then. And we just went up you know just the two of us asks is there anything we can do you know sort of was as simple as that really and it just er grew from that. I mean suddenly we had the example of a women's support group from the miner's strike... th that we had the idea you know fr from that erm and Yona really put it in a nutshell when she said I think er er you know behind closed doors the women worrying about what was gonna happen next you know they felt very frustrated and in a way it was a way to channel o our energies away i i i it was seen as that really in the beginning you know as a a sort of a more as a way of getting rid of the... well y you know the sort of desperation er the impotence one felt of not being able to do anything in this situation and it's er... and by now of course we've all become as a group very close er you know we're we're more like a big family now really an sort of er a lot of the women have never really sort of regularly been to meetings an th the commitment there is very strong really that we all turn up to our Tuesday meetings sort of. It's a bit like [LAUGHTER] I don't know how [] you know I don't think any of us miss you know Tuesday evenings. [speaker001:] How do y y so Yona yes yesterday referred to the atmosphere of the of the of er the women's group [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] or the quarry men support group [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] erm it's been something which is which was quite unique really erm in her experience of of groups of people. [speaker002:] Yes I suppose it's true that for somebody like me I've been involved in quite a lot of different groups over over the years... and the quarry men's support group is... it's difficult to put in words really er... exactly how it's erm... you know I think it's very easy f for groups to become sort of s set really and er well I've always wanted it to to involve everybody and... I think it does that in a way it sort of er it's quite special to all of us in in a funny sort of way it's er you know we feel quite committed.... And it's to do with everybody's lives you know it an and I think out of it is c er people are realizing that they can. You know our first victory was w sort of within forty eight hours of being set up. The Quix supermarket had refused the box because they'd ha although they'd had it for a cert for quite a long time during the miner's strike I think. Because of all the bad press that miners got and in a sense Quix was responding from higher up probably by saying you know well take the b they took the box away in fact at the end of the miner's strike and then when this strike came along they thought it wouldn't you know the the they that was their rule sort of thing. And I remember one of the women saying, Oh well we'll pick at Quix we'll make a real fuss. And erm our local er press was there and I think he went away and phoned up straight away t to Quix and said, Oh well you know they were twenty five to thirty women in Blaenau I never you know sort of their not your usual erm politicals [LAUGHTER] if you like [] you know they just. And they they seemed very determined er you know if if you don't I think you'd better er put the the box there and within [LAUGHTER] twenty four forty eight hours [] or whatever it was we had the box in Quix you know. And I think we were all slightly sort of surprised that we could have this sort of effect. And things like writing leaflets in a way you know that comes up in meetings we'd better write a leaflet and the response usually's, Oh n gosh we can't do things like that you know, we can't speak in public, we can't write leaflets and in fact we do you know we find ourselves achieving these things and and I mean I think men really... their attitude has really changed over the months. I don't [LAUGHTER] I thin [] I think there's probably a lot lot less sexism just in terms of I think we've won their respect by you know and and certainly when th they didn't want us to picket in the beginning, and then over the months really the women have done quite a lot of successful picketing when we've been asked and and we've staged quite big pickets quite a lot of you know the big pickets were really organized and the rallies have been organized by us and really sort of quite a lot of the input into... into the strike I think has come from the women's support group in in quite a unique way. I think that's true what Yona says you know it it is... Cos you know I the sort of the political people of the town tend to be councillors who are er men mainly and set in their ways and think that because they've got the label councillor behind you know b front of their name that they're they are for life you know it's And they're sort of respectable inverted commas members of the community and you know and... I mean I hope that out of out of all this... I mean it's [LAUGHTER] it's a shame it has to happen in such a desperate situation you know because I mean none of us can really feel glad that... Because to be on strike is I mean each day is is hard I'm sure for well I mean I can only say because to be close to people on strike it's quite a unique thing really for me and i... you become so involved and close to people and you realize how hard it is for them. But I think out of this we'll all look back you know and things, I mean it's a bit of a cliche, [LAUGHTER] but er [] it's not gonna be the same again I don't think it is gonna be the same again in Blaenau I think people... have changed. [speaker001:] Th [clears throat] you said or you implied that the women were surprised that er that they could have power and you use it effectively. Erm how did that sort of perspective come about the sort of things could be theirs do you think? [speaker002:] Well it's difficult to pinpoint it in words isn't it. It's like it's it was a you know it's been and still is an experience you know it's sort of n none of us almost you know we we don't realize it's happening and you know you like back on the minutes of. We've tried to keep our our support group also you know to go back sort of as loose as possible that we haven't great great format of a chair and a secretary and a treasurer although we do have that frame work because we've discovered we also needed some sort of structure. And if you look back at the minutes and then Yona I think she's great as the secretary because she doesn't let anything go but on the other hand she's pretty informal about... and the way th that over the weeks... you know somebody er Julie or June or Mervia Ann come up with the suggestion that they maybe feel... why don't we do this and then by the next week it's turned into a a rally or a big picket or or a record. I mean they're they're all gonna do this this record next week erm the quarry men are going to do their own record with. You know and it's a sort of awareness you know then and and now we talk about, Oh we've got to stay together after the strike I mean what what are we going to do [LAUGHTER]. And every weekend really there's a social organized and I mean I think although packing the food parcels [LAUGHTER] on a Saturday [] is in a sense well you know if we take the food thing nobody knew really. I mean we had an example from the miner's strike but that ha was happening far away in a sense and it was just something that you could support or yo you didn't support or you put a tin of beans in the box in Quix and that was what you did you know sort of And then actually faced with having to accept food from that people had given you in a way, it's a very quite a difficult concept. I don't think anybody knows exactly how they'd react to that you know sort of And I think the women's support group has created the frame work that's enabled us.... Because it was the women themselves who were organizing it because they felt part of it they didn't see it as some sort of other people that were more politically motivated that than them giving them something to keep them out on strike, which by its very nature could could have been something that... the people would have accepted for a while and then not accepted. But i it grew slowly over the weeks and I think Christmas was an example of just the actual logistics of what we did at Christmas must be something of a feat in that so much stuff came in from the volume of presents and then the way in which they could be distributed. I mean if you think about it [LAUGHTER] it was just an impossible task to do it sort of fairly or so that everybody felt all right about it and also that you know if it's your own children you're having to choose presents you know the who whole idea was sort of very very difficult really. And I think it was an example of the trust that we'd built up over the weeks and months that we were able to do it. And we had our hiccups and we had all sorts of... you know difficult moments for all of us where we all had to face ourselves and... You know I remember my little boy said, Oh Mum y what about my Christmas you know I was putting a lot of time into the the striker's Christmas and he said how do you become a striker's child? [LAUGHTER] And it came home to me that you know we all had to come to terms in some way with erm... with what it was all about and the kids and you know and it became something of a... I mean i it was the experience that we went through you know it was i it was you know something that we'll always remember I think because it'll always make Christmas different I think [LAUGHTER] for us in a way you know but it... And when they came up from South Wales with car loads and van loads and I mean we all just sobbed you know I mean there was nothing to do really you know it was just [LAUGHTER] and I think... anyway that was Christmas, but I mean er. And we had expected rather a slump after Christmas that hasn't happened really so that er you know we're just so busy I mean [LAUGHTER] one thing to the next really.... [speaker001:] Can you can you give me some idea the sort of flavour of erm how your meetings how they g g go now? [speaker002:] Well the men tend to come to our meetings and sit in the back now because their they well what in their words they say, Oh they they're much better than the lodge meetings. [LAUGHTER] And erm we've got this big rally er which a fortnight ago Julie suggested that we had a rally I think she thought er... you know that it was time we a the public profile up sort of thing. And er she wanted er you know she has visions of us filling the streets of from to [LAUGHTER] with banners waving and the we asked for no banners in the first rally we had back in October because we didn't want it to be seen as some thing that had you know big sort of take over and everybody you know the Communist Party and the language people and er all the different factions being able to wave their banners you know, We support the Blaenau quarry men. And er but very definitely now I think we've got the self confidence that er you know we very much and er we feel established enough that everybody can bring their banners and it's gonna be a good day. So the meetings are packed really with organizing and trying you know democratically to decide who we're going to have to speak and the balance of speakers and er where we're going to march from and who's gonna invite the band and who's gonna do this and who's gonna do that you know. And the men erm as I say come along and sit in the back. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do do you the men actually take part? [speaker002:] Yeah they do take part cos they're dying to say things [LAUGHTER] and we give them jobs to do. No they they it's good you know it's er... [speaker001:] I think believe your your title has changed slightly has it from women's support group to the quarry men's support group? [speaker002:] Oh I didn't know that actually [LAUGHTER] but er fine yes I mean er that sounds like a very good idea. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. When did that happen then? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I was just curious. [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... Yes. [speaker001:] You or it's implied in what you're saying about the er the burgeoning self-confidence that people become responsible for... particular avenues. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm do you see any danger in in that kind of specialization? [speaker002:] Er that certain people won't feel involved do you mean? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yes. Oh yes obviously er there is that element there always is and you have to out weigh I think you know creating sub committees that then er. But our entertainments sub committee for instance sort of er changes an people join it and y you know sort of er. As as I said we're we're not very formal but er you know that also has its especially if people that er maybe erm, how can I put it, are not used t taking everything back to a meeting and you know they maybe make a decision and go ahead with it and then it gets shouted at a bit but I think we we can all take being shouted at a bit as well. You know like I say there is quite a lot of trust and erm I think Yona and me are sort of aware er we're very much united in the feeling that we don't... we don't want things to erm you know we want everybody to be involved and obviously different people have different things to offer.... [speaker001:] You implied erm that many of the women who weren't really aware politically in in fact may have been quite restrained in that sense [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Or unconscious [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Have become possibly aware of erm politics and the wa way power flows? [speaker002:] Yes I think you know I mean democracy [LAUGHTER] if I use [] that word is supposed to be er by the people for the people isn't it you know but... I mean I'm always amazed. B before I became a councillor I didn't really realize about the three tiers of local democracy. Here you know you had the Town Council and the District and then the County. And... you know... it is amazing what you can achieve really by... you know there is such a lot of scope really. A and it is this stupid business of... of in a way you know the whole idea that er it's beyond us you know. It's something for other people to do, do you know what I mean? And I mean I think women... tend to be inv having to cope with things like school and er and health and you know they're a at the grass roots if you like of you know at the receiving end of you know say cuts in in services like that and bus services and just quality of rural life and I mean the quality of life in Blaenau is depopulation and unemployment and you know and and in a sense there is lot of scope for women to break down the barriers of you know cos it is true that the the Councillors they're supposed to represent the people or whatever tend to be quite well to do they've done it thank you very much and then oh you know they've got the time on their hands and they tend to be men and s school ex school teachers ex... You know and they're not having to cope with really... situations that go will put them in touch with what it's like not to have a bus service or not to have proper health care and this sort of thing you know. So erm. Well I'm trying to gen you know just as a generalization now. And I think erm... you know just that really.... [speaker001:] D do you predict that the the political nature of of the town at least wi will be will be changed in quite a fundamental way if and when the strike ends as a consequence of over this new? [speaker002:] Well yes it's it I dunno it's you know I don't know want to say... You know basically the facilities for change are really in the hands of of the politicians aren't they you know? And if there's no work and if there's no means by which people can... get themselves... you know those sorts of basic things but you know I'm not gonna si I I couldn't say that the whole structure is going to ch change becau but I think erm I hope anyway and I do believe really that er... I mean I hope that we're going to stay together as a support group in some sort of form and... Yes and there's no way that we're not going to support other causes in the way that we've been supported. And I think that's that's a wonderful experience to realize that er you can be part of you know cos surely finally working men and women through history have never without sticking together they'd they'd still be back you know in the in the dark ages as far you know.... So it is I I I won't predict you know how it's gonna be too much you know because obviously er it's just the day to day living is quite difficult for most people have to work and cope with their families and you know so there's not going to be er that the fundamentals are are not gonna be changed and obviously people are gonna be very broke for a long time because in a strike situation you probably don't ever really quite recover. I mean they've been on strike now for six months. And erm. But I mean I think the feeling of the the miners were out for a year I mean time and time again I've heard people say, Oh how d how do they do it and look at the money they're sending us and look at what they're doing for us and how ho. You know they must be you know and a certain amount of guilt maybe that they that they didn't support the miners or you know it was something that was happening far away and maybe y like I said you gave the odd tin of beans you know but er... [speaker001:] Has there been any kind of surprise of the amount of support that you have got?... [speaker002:] Yes definitely I mean I don't think we ever dreamt in our wildest dreams I think... really it was maybe chance thing f fate or whatever you know. The network er what the miner's strike created I think anyway was a sort of network of people... Th and it wasn't just through the usual trade union political party network it was or through the support groups really er... it sets up a network of like [tape change] You know maybe a vacuum that needed to be filled by and They looked at the case of the quarry strike and it's sort of so glaring obvious for men and women all over the country that it's er really a case of er... wo working men and women being erm... well being trampled upon really. They were they were asking for them to make more slates for for less money and they weren't prepared to sit down and really talk it through with the men they just treated you know they just had this awful attitude... [speaker001:] that itself was a a sur surprise in in the town amongst the the women that the quarry men as being local people wouldn't talk with th their own kind.... [speaker002:] Yeah I I dunno how s much of a surprise. I suspect that there'll there'd been a certain amount of alienation for a long time things that the men had to accept because the people with the money and therefore the power said that they had to you know a I think quarry men are very proud on one level... great sort of craftsmen in a way and erm I'm sure that you know th the last couple of years well I've heard them say really tha that there'd been things niggling them with the management but [LAUGHTER] I suppose [] this was just like a blatant smack in the face and they realize that if they accepted this if they let the management walk all over them this was the thin end of the wedge you know that. And for the women you know I mean it's i in a situation you probably I don't know you know this comment that, Oh my my wife's gonna nag me back to work, or whatever that was made in the beginning probably could be that the women were saying, Oh my God you know we can't afford to have you on strike just accept it you know just... I'm definitely not... I think really they have felt they have really changed fund fundamentally they've found a self confidence that they can say no you know it's not good enough. And er certainly Amanda who who's on strike then you know I mean they don't get equal pay the women the the the three women that came out I mean one of them's gone back an Amanda and Helen you know I mean they they were on they were on terribly low wages.... And I think Amanda and Helen certainly you know there's they found a self confidence that er feeling of what the union is all about as well you know.... See th history of the union is I mean er... but er you know it's a it's a process isn't it in in a way the management have are probably really kicking [LAUGHTER] themselves now [] for what's happened you know I mean, their li latest statement is er, Well if there hadn't been so much ou outside interference I'm sure we'd have been able to settle. You know I mean can you think of anything more ridiculous with there you go they probably haven't got any other leg to stan I mean that's no leg to stand on but they've got nothing else to say really you know.... [speaker001:] Is there and is there any kind of exp expected amongst the support group that that the strike is going to end successfully? [speaker002:] Well I dunno whether we... whether you'd sort of when you're so close really. I mean for me I I've gone beyond hoping in a way I mean it's just a question of keeping going from week to week and I don't know how to measure success. I know it it sounds sounds sort of strange really it is re really strange. In the beginning I just hoped and prayed that it would be over next week. And in a way it's become easier as the times this might sound funny as the times gone on. Almost as if we can go on forever if that's how it's got to be. You know it's a sort of what's got to be has got to be in a sense I mean there's no going back now there's no surely finally every every strike is settled in the end and they've got to come and talk. Everybody's got to sit down and talk eventually and something has got to be worked out and that's got to happen we know that. And meanwhile we'll keep going you know and er and do what we have to do which is to make sure that when they get dow when they get round to that table sitting down that well certainly the the quarry men are not gonna be hungry if if you know what I mean I mean they they gonna sit there [LAUGHTER] with full bellies [] in a sense that they're not gonna be starved back and I mean th that sounds rather dramatic and a cliched but I mean when you're living on the bread line and expecting money from week to week I mean that's what it's all about isn't it you know and and the food parcel. We first of all we used to give the food parcel every fortnight because it was half one week and half the next and now it's a food parcel every week so they they're guaranteed that basic sustenance you know and erm and we'll keep up the up th up the fund raising and the money's certainly still pouring in. I mean th the f the funds having dropped at all. And if if it does start dropping we're gonna have to change our tactics and go and do something else you know we'll we'll [LAUGHTER] knock on anybody's doors [] do you know what I mean w we're not proud and we'll go you know we'll just change our tactics and er whatever it takes. And I think I'm I speak for er... you know so so if that's success then yes you know then then it's it's got to you know I dunno ho [speaker001:] Do you think that the management are aware that they are now dealing with people who've changed? [speaker002:] Well like I said I think [LAUGHTER] probably they're [] really kicking themselves I mean I would be in their situation. You know and this statement that, Oh it's outside interference if these students hadn't come up to picket. Well I mean it's a ridiculous statement isn't it? You know I mean because all the people that have come to show support and er solidarity have done it er I mean we've been very aware you know the quarry men have actually said you know no we don't want you to actually block the land rovers we do it our own way and erm... you know there's been no... out of control mass picketing or violence or anything like that. So I mean and if a and surely if they're talking about actual support in terms of food and money I mean can they really. You know in a way South Wales is paying back the debt that we pa w w we paid them in their strike you know I mean and That's communities helping communities and if really this management is talking about er the fact that they resent families not having to go without over Christmas and this sort of thing you know I mean where are their values you know it's difficult to understand isn't it? [speaker001:] Is there any [clears throat] hint that you might be forced to make an inver an inversion o in that sense that er you would be able so that you would have to make statements like that as you've made you you've turned them that the employer's statement on it's head? [speaker002:] Erm how do you mean exactly? [speaker001:] Well in in the sense that erm they've said referred to outside interference [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] and you said well if they mean you know support from from people in South Wales who [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] are stopping people starving [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] I mean have you ac hav have you actually made that comment in public? [speaker002:] Well this came up actually on a on a radio sho er chat thing that was open to the public in Blaenau Ffestiniog last night er where the chair was saying erm well you know I mean a lot of the [LAUGHTER] a lot of the people that haven't been very involved in this strike that I think should have been involved. I mean myself as a councillor I think i if you're a councillor you should be involved in the strike in one way or another you know. I mean all this sitting on the fence I mean they must have very sore bums [LAUGHTER]. I mean I dunno whether it's because they don't want to lose votes or you know I mean they they were there sort of pontificating about we should all come little children and let's talk. Er we've all got to be friends in a situation let bygones be bygones sort of. Well I mean it's gone much beyond that I mean they the reality of the situation is er is not like that I'm afraid I mean it... Eighteen men have been sacked and and these are men that have put those quarries where they are. You know they they're a lot of the older men makes you wonder have they been sacked so they don't have to pay them hand shakes at the end you know if they wanted to lay some people off. Cos you know we're all aware that in this sort of new technological new machinery the new machinery versus a lot of skilled labour is is a difficult debate isn't it you know and... but you can't. In nineteen eighty six treat people as if their labour is worth nothing you know those men have given their lives to the quarry industry and there's no doubt that there is money to be made from slate at the moment and people are people that have the money to invest are making a lot of money okay they're inves they're risking the money but er people are risking their lives as well and giving their lives. [speaker001:] You seem to suggest that there is quite a and quite a a different relationship between the quarry men er and the quarry owner than there is normally between say a employer and an employee. Th th that the quarry man somehow has has an investment in the erm in the rock in th other than than than what he receives in wages. [speaker002:] Yes I wouldn't like to say too much about this you know I'm I'm only a farmer I'm no expert on these thi you know just from things I feel really erm. I think historically... although you know [LAUGHTER] historians can [] much better than me, erm historically maybe the way that the rock has been worked with a bagging system and it was you know and lots of quarry men had little bits of farm as well around Blaenau especially and you get a feeling er from reading about it that er you know they have a an almost self employed attitude to their to their work and their rock and the fact that er they'd do it in their own you know wor work the rock in a certain way and this and very sort of proud erm of their work and that and From talking a lot to them and being close to you know it you feel that that that's still very much the same really you know there is this sort of close relationship and that with their em employers there was you know a lot of... you know wasn't it wasn't straight it as straight as you said a straight employer employee relationship that they was... A lot of s sort of er give and take probably and I think they were outraged at this sort of McGregor type tactic really that you know this new machine. They were prepared to compromise because they I'm sure that you know you can't imagine them not being really but because they're such erm... they were outraged at this machine but they were prepared to give it a try but the way it was bulldozed through that once the machine was there there was no choice then and almost you know get going boys get more and more and more slate you know greed they felt the employer was being greedy at the expense of quality.... And really the slate industry I think probably hinges on quality being maintained you know I mean li like I said I don't want to go in you know I'm no expert on this sort of thing but erm... A deep sense of of injustice I think is that and, oh my God if if we let him start making us just you know like robots produce more and more slate and laying off some of the older craftsmen and you know they do and David Price who knows and I mean th they put that and and then they the last fifteen years it was a it was a defunct slate quarry before you know and they... I mean it's not as i it's not an easy thing to er work slate I'm sure it's d difficult and you have to know what you're doing.... [speaker001:] Are you are you sort of saying in fact that the erm that the the success of those qua of the rebirth of the slate industry in has depended largely upon erm these mens skill erm as well as the investment of the quarry owners? [speaker002:] Oh I think there's no doubt about that and also their their their wages were low in the beginning you know and and their their their hard work that they've put into it for the last you know... I mean it had it I mean David Price says at the best of times is not easy to run a quarry you know you know and they they ha all work in a quarry so it had to be a cooperation and you know the management said you come up with us and and they weren't complaining actually about the wages it was quite good wages for. Mind you it was only their wages are only comparable to say some wages that they get in nuclear power station. I mean it's only fair it's not we're not talking about huge wages but for Gwynedd which is a low wage area they were reasonable and they worked for them too you know but but they weren't complaining about the money so much as the principle.... And there are records of this everywhere aren't there you know sort of and and probably you know the the management thought er I don't know if they thought this far really or we'll we'll show them that they can't that they can't stick together as a union and why should all the quarries stick together. I mean the management are quite prepared to stick together when it comes to getting grants as the Ffestiniog Slate Company. But when it suits them they choose not to be seen and seen you know sort of divide and rule tactics of seen as different entities really and I mean to be how dare and one one comment was how dare these men gang up against us. Well I mean you know we're not playing children's ganging up games are we we know we're dealing with peoples' lives and families. [speaker001:] You refer to the er n network which is erm become consolidated in the miner's strike and [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] the dispute here. Can you d d d describe it in in in some bit of detail? [speaker002:] Well you know just loosely really there's the contacts that people I mean. One of the initiatives er was er the Congress the Wa all Wales Congress that was set up in the miner's strike for instance. But I don't think it really ever I mean there were quite a lot of initiatives like that you know of people thinking of different ways really of of sticking together to combat er you know what I've been talking about which was smashing unionism and er forcing lower wages really onto the the already low paid, which er really seems to be what Thatcher's all about you know in order to er curb inflation and create a very divided society where er half the population seem to have to live either on the dole or in in poverty really in in derelict bits of Britain. Erm while the rest er live in the lap of luxury I mean maybe that's a well I don't know I don't think it is an exaggeration really the way things are heading.... And these sorts of initiatives of of people organizing together you know sort of. Oh I had a huge list of names really you know of erm you know we had quite big meetings where people seem to have come out of their parties [LAUGHTER] their sort of [] sectarianism really you know which er the left is notorious for if you like if you want to use cliches. And er you know rally round each other and I think it's no more than that really no more or no less you know it's er. And certainly you know I mean Yona's list now of support for this next rally we've got on March the first is huge I mean it's sort of and that's not gonna go away is it you know I mean next year I don't know what we're gonna be up to but [LAUGHTER] hopefully we'll be supporting somebody else in their er struggle for fair play and that network will obviously come into play you know I mean I've we've been South Wales have said, Oh you know these are all our contacts you know some of the women in South Wales and in Deeside they've said these are all our contacts and these are the people that were good and did the work and got the leaflets out and brought the money in you know and it's as simple as that really you know. [speaker001:] D the people who've erm re who've really helped you in in ver very substantial way do you go and see them? [speaker002:] ... Yeah well we're in touch with each another you know qu quite a lot of people have visited us. Obviously at the moment we we all of us are really tied up with living from a Tuesday to a Saturday really you know with Tuesdays our meeting and then all that has to be done after that and then Saturday is the food parcels you know so and most people work as well either part time or full time work at home er with the kids and bringing up families so and obviously also money is shor short for people that are directly involved in the strike so erm. No we're not all rushing off all over the place although the men and s some of the women you know we have gone off and they still I mean the men were in South Wales last week.... A lot of people have come up to visit so in those term you know yes we do yeah sort of er seeing each other but erm you know we don't have [LAUGHTER] a lot of spare time [] either. [speaker001:] Can you give me some idea of your relationship with the erm the lodge? I mean is it possible to draw a comparison between the way it erm you know the women were regarded before they became so effective? [speaker002:] Oh well erm I don't know really it's er. I've only been to a couple of lodge meetings it I was invited to go to I always felt slightly ambiguous about that really you know. You know we tend to sort of hover outside lodge meetings a bit you know cos it is all men you know and [LAUGHTER] It's quite frightening really you know I mean this sort of erm... I think... the way the finances are worked for instance er. You know we were asked, Do you want your own bank account really and we decided er democratically that we'd have the one bank account really for make sure the D H S S didn't start snooping really and you know er... that's worked very well I mean certainly the men very much tell us everything that's going on and erm well... you know I don't think there's any conflict of erm I don't know you know it's it's difficult I suppose it's amazing really the way it does work you know and that er you know but it's quite loose really because it's er that's in a way the way one of it's successes probably you know that's it's not a very structured I mean probably the lodge is more structured I mean men are used to their lodge meetings aren't they you know? I mean we're so busy with our own we don't really you know we don't we don't feel at all upstaged by the lodge [LAUGHTER] I think [] you know we just work together really you know because it makes sense you know I don't think there's no big... [speaker001:] And yet the erm the men have started to come to your m meetings? [speaker002:] Yes they do they [LAUGHTER] it's it's yeah they they liked to sort of erm I think they felt a bit shy in the beginning [LAUGHTER] and yet you know... [speaker001:] How did they did they begin in sort of in ones or twos? [speaker002:] Yes David Price used to you know sort of er sit in our meetings yeah as a treasurer it made sense you know our treasurer and him to work together and all that. And er they happen came along er to tell us about the Aberystwyth trip we went off to Aberystwyth the students gave us a party and he said, Oh I like your meetings [LAUGHTER] I wish I could come here more often []. And erm you know they they they tend to meet before us on a Tuesday and they sort of stay [LAUGHTER] hang around []. You know often they don't stay through the whole meeting but if they've got specific points to bring up you know th you know it's flexible really you know sort of depending on what's going on really. And Tom Jones stayed in one of our meetings a couple of months ago. I think he was a bit nervous [LAUGHTER] really he thought, Oh my gosh you know that these are one of the big pickets that happened erm what are the women going to plan next you know and he felt you know Tom's you know felt a bit sort of out of control of it really I think he was very impressed with er. I I hope so I think it was er er we bridged you know I mean maybe you know it's often the way isn't it you know you think that's something going on and you think it's different to what it is when he realized we were all very level headed and that er. At that moment it had been appropriate to put big pickets you know I think if we thought too much about it we would have and taken it to the lodge and put it through the union it would have had cold water put over it and... you know it was right for Tom to be wary and it was probably right for us to do what we did I mean I think you know it it was successful the way it turned out. I mean it could have been different it could have got out of control and then everybody would have turned and pointed a finger and that would have been awful. But that's also the nature of the way things are really isn't it as well you know? I mean probably women are more daring you know because they've got less to lose in a way I suppose if you if you're not a councillor [LAUGHTER] you can be more er you know or if you're not worried for your job or you know or if there isn't a definite structure I suppose in the lodge there's the definite people that always say the same things you know what I mean and it's it's less easy to be spontaneous in that situation I would think you know. So erm... I mean I think we're definitely seen by the men [LAUGHTER] as as the more [] as the more brave in in a way you know. [speaker001:] D'ya do you think they've erm re really learnt anything from you? [speaker002:] Well I dunno whether I I'm in a position to comment on that [LAUGHTER] you know you'll have to ask them about that whether you know we've all learnt from each other really. [speaker001:] Well erm David said that he didn't think the strike would have gone on or they wouldn't have the heart to go on without the women? [speaker002:] Yes that has been said yes that er... well I suppose also it's a joint effort isn't it you know if.... I mean the strain on families must be enormous in a strike situation and for both people in the family to be having an input and feeling that they're getting some sort of feedback from the situation that it's not just despair must surely you know be you know there's that side to it and then erm from the women's point of view I mean we have like I said become one big family in a way you know and the social side of the strike in a way you know people are sa you know going out more maybe and certainly [tape change]

[speaker001:] Can you tell us how you first became involved in the dispute? [David:] Well I was working in the quarry, and er it's last March turned round and said he wanted a new implemented with a new miracle saw that he had bought and he didn't really give us much warning about what he was gonna do but all he said was that er he was gonna scrap our old bonus contract and implement a new one no matter what, and from various figures that were bandied about we all realized we were gonna back quite a lot worse off because of it. [speaker001:] Was the imple implementation of the bonus scheme at that time linked t to the new s er the new saw table? [David:] I I think so. It was partly with the new saw table and also he wanted to try and get more er sellable saleable product out of the slate, cos previously we had been throwing away quite a bit or giving it to and I think it really started as a family argument between him and his brother. In, his brother in law in you know and er he was somewhat hurt that his brother in law Will was getting a tremendous share of small blocks and he wanted to make more money out of them. [speaker001:] H how did it become apparent that the new erm bonus scheme was going to operate to your disadvantage? [David:] Well we certainly saw it as a disadvantage, he thought we'd be er very well off with it. I think er through the figures that he was producing we all realized something was up and various computers flying around the place you know, and the figures produced by them. That's you know it was all purely hypothetical the figures they produced but er they were comparing it to what we had pr previously been producing we all sort of realized that for a set production figure we could have been up to forty pound worse off, per week. [speaker001:] C can you give me some idea of er the level of erm I'll call it education, the level of education people that were working er about the bonus scheme that er [David:] Well I I think er it's it's quite hard to to talk about it but er cer I th I think people were grieved that the bonus system that had been going since the quarry was started up again by 's father was gonna be scrapped with really no consultation with the workers if you like, and I think everybody thought that you know we'd been producing a lot of slate and been paid well for it previously and he should leave well alone. You know both sides were very happy you know it was up with the company or down with the company you know, and I think certainly the younger lads sort of saw it as an infringement upon their future, you know we've all got mortgages and the o older men who'd been working since the quarry started you know were gonna see a drop in their standard of living, so I think you know people were getting a bit upset you know that a n a new fella h a new face had come in, and all of a sudden you know changes were being made that were gonna hurt everybody financially. [speaker001:] Was the... the of the new bonus scheme the only cause for unrest at that time? [David:] I think so yes, yeah. Yeah, I I can't think of any other things that you know that would have led to us sort of withdrawing our labour,e everything else could've settled amicably or through discussions with the union. No I think it was purely the financial aspect of the thing. [speaker001:] When it became clear t to you that the bo the new bonus scheme was not operating to your advantage, how did you go about representing your feelings to the quarry owners? [David:] I think almost daily there were discussions between our two shop stewards and the quarry owners about you know, levels of production, expected targets, increase in production and all this, and er I think you know through those daily discussions we made our side of the argument known and we we told him that we'd work to rule if things weren't proper and if we didn't like it. I it's just the attitude about th the way he went about the whole thing. That's what upset us most. You know it seemed to be that we had a working rule that had functioned reasonably well over the years and all of a sudden he was tearing up various paragraphs that didn't suit him, and altering bits you know and changing them round just to suit the company, and all to our disadvantage. [speaker001:] Er you v vindicated that you were in fact talking on quite a sophisticated level with the quarry owners in the sense that you were able to break up your argument into various categories as as you've said. How how was this sophistication accepted by the quarry owners? [David:] Erm well a at one time, when we put various arguments to him, he just turned round and decided that everyone over sixty would be surplus to requirements and er [LAUGHTER] and sent down the road if you like. Well you know we weren't too impressed with that and the next day he took that back and re-employed them. But er no it seems strange you're dealing with a man who's got your future in his h in his hands, yet he can turn round and do stupid things like that, and totally just disregard the human aspect if you like. [speaker001:] You mention the fact that er you were talking to a new manager or relatively new, erm had w was the trouble if you like in any way related to the appointment of this new manager? [David:] Well, I I was fairly new in the company myself so I hadn't worked for his father for long before took over the managership or chairmanship or whatever he is, so I I'm really not too sure about the whole thing but certainly for a quarry manager or quarry director or owner, he didn't really know the slate as well as the workers, and he was expecting things out of his workers and the slate, the product, that were really just not on. You know, it couldn't be you know w we we couldn't produce what he wanted, and certainly the material wasn't there for the things he wanted to do, and yet he seemed to assume that he knew everything and wouldn't take any advice from the experienced men in the quarry. [speaker001:] Was was any attempt made by the the experienced men the one who the ones who understood the rock and been in the presumably been in the industry [David:] [cough] [speaker001:] was there any attempt by them to ed educate him [David:] Well I I think er he's of the age where he was unwilling to learn. He thought that modern techniques could be put to use, where in some cases they'd been tried and failed beforehand. I mean he went off to Italy and bought at great expense a wire saw, have had a wire saw for years and that hasn't proved successful. Okay in Italy on the marble it does work, but on the slate it you know it it hasn't worked and I think various quarries have tried it and found out that it doesn't work, and yet he assumed that he knew better and you know, little little things like that, you know he just seemed unwilling to learn or lis heed advice. [speaker001:] Was was there any sort of attempt to er acquisition of expensive equipment now, was there any attempt made to gain the er the knowledge of the workforce on what would be suitable machinery to buy? [David:] Well I suppose he might have asked some of the fitters, but I doubt it somehow seeing some of the acquisitions that he made from Llanberis when they were closing down there. And he probably asked the quarry manager and the under manager there. I know the under manager went off to Italy to look at this saw. But er he never asked me, put it that way, what I thought was suitable machinery and he, as far as I know he never asked other rock men what they thought was suitable for the rock and other slate makers what they thought was suitable for inside the mill, or the diamond saw operators, what sort of saws they thought were the best. [speaker001:] If you had've been asked, would you for what he actually bought? [David:] Certainly the saw he bought for the mill I think that has great prospects and you know there's no two ways about it, it could help production and ease the work of the workforce. sort of in conjunction with that, that has to go you know i has to be tied in with a bonus contract that suits the workforce. And you know, no two ways about it that saw was definitely a a good acquisition. But various other bits of machinery which are now lying idle around the quarry probably would've been better left in Italy or Spain or wherever they were acquired from. [speaker001:] W was there a feeling when the this this saw table was acquired,d did you have any feeling that it was a way of controlling the wages? [David:] No I don't think so. No. I in what way? [speaker001:] In the sense that production could be upped but your level of income wouldn't not be permitted t to rise,. [David:] Oh yeah,i in that way er certainly when he produced the bonus contract to go with the saw table, you know we w that was fairly plain, that production would have risen in his estimates quite considerably, and yet our wages in fact would have dropped [LAUGHTER] quite [] considerably so, yes I mean er it didn't seem quite to tally in the way we would have like to have seen it. [speaker001:] D c c could you have visualized any way in which... production could have been controlled apart from his down about a certain amount? [David:] Well there's a physical limit to how much we could produce in a an eight hour shift and all the slate makers were adamant that the figures he reckoned they could produce and what they reckoned they could produce you know they were totally different. So I mean there is a limit to how much we can earn, you know bonus-wise. So I I do don't think he could control it that much. But what we realized was that even if we hit his estimates we were still gonna be worse off. [speaker001:] After you'd been erm in daily discussions w with the management, when did it occur to you that things w just not gonna happen? [David:] Well i it was I'm not quite sure we we got the other two quarries in the company, in the group of companies, together and told them our problems, and they said right okay fair enough, we'll help you. And I think it was, we were willing to go back to work and carry on discussions, albeit without earning any bonus because we were working to rule at the time, but it was what happened in er the quarry that really started the strike, when he laid the workforce off because they were helping us, or joining us in sympathetic action, you know there was a lockout up there, so I think that speeded up things considerably. We all thought right okay, we'll get out for a few days and matters' ll come to a head, get sorted out and we'd be back at work, happy as anything you know, everything sorted within a couple of weeks. Unfortunately it was not to be. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What w ho wh was the reaction when you decided you would work to rule? [David:] Erm, the management certainly weren't too impressed, [LAUGHTER] which is understandable. But on the other hand, we were only working to rule, we were working by rules and regulations laid down from various Acts and negotiated er agreements. But erm certainly we were a lot worse off, cos we we were just earning a day rate, instead of any bonus you know we had no bonus at all. So yeah we all thought, we'll work to rule a couple of weeks, things' ll get sorted and we'll all be back to normal. [speaker001:] You said that the other t t two quarries were sort of l l l linked er with you. How did you how d how did it arise that there was this degree of cooperation? [David:] Well I think there were niggling little points in all the quarries, the workforce certainly hasn't been happy up in for a long time. In I think things have ticked over er various little things have been sorted but all internally without resorting to outside help. And because each of the directors seems to have a share in the brother's or brother in law's concerns you know we all thought right, if they're gonna play the game together, we'll play the game together, and see what happens. And you know when after we had withdrawn our labour, then various things arose in that needed sorting out, and the bonus system there, if we thought ours was unfair, their's was totally out the window. At least we were earning some money, and they were ending up owing the company money I think. [speaker001:] Was the the degree of cooperation, was it was it on an informal basis or was it er through the Transport and General that you got together? [David:] Erm, we called a lodge meeting before the annual leave, annual shutdown, and in that lodge meeting all three quarries agreed to go on a work to rule as from the resumption of work, which is second week of August. I can't remember in fact if there was a Transport official there. I suppose there must have been but I can't remember. So I I think it started on an informal basis, you know everyone was just a little bit fed up with the way they're being treated and the way you know been told how much we could earn, how we could earn it, when when we could earn it and all this sort of palaver. So it started informally. [speaker001:] What was what was the expectation if any er at that time regarding the effect of your action? [David:] Well I think it the they've small workforces in each of the three quarries, I think there are twenty in, and twenty odd in and we thought well twenty men aren't really gonna hurt the quarry the companies, the group of companies that much, because slate will still be produced in the other two. So if we can hurt them or certainly gang together if you like, cos unity is strength, and between the three workforces they'll certainly slow down production and hopefully force things. [speaker001:] lodge, was there any erm were there any individuals who were particularly keen and had an idea of what they wanted and and who were who were who were obviously older and more organized than the others [David:] I think at the onset we all thought, it's not gonna last long you know a couple of weeks at the most. I remember coming home and discussing with my wife that another friend that it'd only be a couple of weeks and we'd be back to work. No I think at the onset we were all well we were all beginners at the game if you like. So there were no little budding little strike leaders or Arthur Scargills in the pack. So no I think er we all stuck it together at the start, not really knowing where it was gonna lead us. [speaker001:] Why do you think it didn't fail er early on as a strike, er a as the fact it was only predicted it would last two or three weeks but it was obvious at the time it was gonna go on. Why didn't it fail? [David:] Well, had we given in then god only knows what would have happened in both our quarry and the other two quarries. I'm sure the system would have been implemented in the quarry, and they would've suffered even worse than us. In their bonus would never have been sorted out. I think the whole idea of us managing to stick together for seven months, you know th the fact that we did, bar a few exceptions, you know it's it's amazing. With the help of the women. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ho how in fact di di did you keep on go you said mentioned you were out for seven months. When it began to dawn that you were going to be out more than a fortnight or three weeks, did anything emerge that w that you can see was to keep you encouraged for that period? [David:] I think as soon as people from outside of the community, and the quarrying community, as soon as they started giving us support, telling us right, we'll help you, both financially and you know physically and what have you, you know the students, the women's support group, when things started getting organized. You know then we thought right, we're not just gonna forget about this you know, we'll we'll carry on for a little while longer and then as soon as the ball really started rolling, er personally I thought well you can't back down now, [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] How how many others do you think had the same reaction t t to you? [David:] Erm certainly I think all of our quarry, the quarry, I think we were overwhelmed with the support because it was really in our place that the dispute started and a lot of other people who I'd spoken to you know they they were amazed at the support we received and, seemed to be the shyer the people you know the, some of the lads they never spoke much at lodge meetings, but after a while they'd be getting up and saying their pieces and, you know I think it's just because you knew you had backing, and people helping and urging you on, advising you, and the union helping and you know they leant over backwards in various fields to help us. As soon as we realized we had such tremendous support and you know er right we'll give this a go and we're gonna win. [speaker001:] Y you mentioned that the [clears throat] that it was a great encouragement to you to have outside support. Did it have you any any idea why you had so much support, all all of a sudden? [David:] Well, people that I spoke to, spoken to from Cardiff, they they originally got involved because one of the lads used to work up in the factory, the chairman of their labour club, and after that I don't, politically you know it started off completely non political, but after a while people latched on to it as a dispute that could be won, and you know that would be one up for the workers and the country. Unfortunately that wasn't to be, I er we came a good second but there you go. people latched onto it as something that wasn't a political strike, wasn't being led by militants, revolutionaries, what have you, and it was something, it was just for the freedom of the working man if you like, and his standard of living was not gonna suffer because of bosses intransig intransigence [LAUGHTER] I'll say it right in a while, [LAUGHTER] and what have you. no we we're not gonna suffer and we're gonna win, we can win. [speaker001:] You mention the fact that erm there was a feeling that it was a s because of the size of the workforce, it was possibly a strike which could be won? [David:] Yeah I think, small workforce, I mean twenty in our quarry, if one or two back to work that's not really gonna help the management. You know if you got five or six thousand and a few go back to work you know, they can start getting a production run going, but because of the nature of our work, everyone depends on everyone else. really needs the whole twenty men back to start viable production again. [speaker001:] [clears throat] W was there a f a feeling during that period th you were going to win? [David:] Oh yeah. Yeah I was convinced we were gonna win. at the start, but as things went on, and just the fact that we never had any talks between the union and the management. The management ref refused to talk all the time and after a while it just got depressing, the fact that nothing seemed to be happening. [speaker001:] How did you explain to your own s s satisfaction during those months that no talks were going on, that into into com into communicating with the quarry? [David:] No, there was just nothing we could do. It'd got to the stage where the workforce were not gonna talk to the management on a an official level, you know we were still talking informally at the picket line and, you know still trying to be helpful and offer our advice on what could be done to solve the dispute. But you know further up the ladder, the union officials and what have you, it was just, they tried, the council tried and all this, and nothing seemed to happen. [speaker001:] Had there ever been a a feeling amongst the members of the lodge that erm that with this in increasing involvement with outsid outsiders, the local M Ps, the ministers of religion, the er Transport and General Workers' Union, et cetera, as well as coverage by H T V and the B B C that there would be a kind of accumulation of pressure and you would they would give in? [David:] Yeah, yeah. We all assumed that because of the, yeah the media pressure, at least talks would start, but I think possibly the management thought that because of this one-sided pressure, you know it seemed at the time that nothing nice was being said about the management, you know you can almost understand them being reluctant to go into a room and offering their side of the argument. Yeah I I think, had they given their side of the argument at the onset, then er things would've been different. But because they refused for one reason or another to dis you know to have talks with the press or television or the ministers, whoever, I think they they burnt their boats. [cough] [speaker001:] At what point erm did i er did it become an official dispute, how how at the point of becoming an official dispute? [David:] I think when we were, as far as I can remember is when we were sent either letters of, letters to warn us that we were gonna be dismissed if we didn't turn up for work or either when we were dismissed. Er from then on, you know, things were really put in put into action. [speaker001:] Was that, was that er on the basis of your acting c collectively as a as a lodge or was it again was it shop stewards who acted? [David:] No, no i ever every decision was taken at the lodge, the shop stewards didn't run the strike between them and just inform us after every decision was taken by all fifty members at the start and forty members at the finish, and I'm you know I'm proud to say that everyone was part of what went on. And it wasn't just a few people leading others whichever way they felt was necessary. You know sure there were committees to manage either financial affairs, or various other bits and pieces that went on, but even then decisions they took were taken to the lodge to be voted on. [speaker001:] So in a sense, everything that went on was was erm fully exposed in a sense, everyone [David:] Yeah, yeah [speaker001:] knew what was going on? [David:] I mean everybody knew what was going on, they might have had their own interpretations of what they'd been told, but that happens, and as I said you know, every decision was voted on by the full lodge of the three quarries. You know, the decision whether we were gonna go back to work because of these threatening letters was taken by the forty well fifty members of the lodge, so in effect I was sacked by people who had since returned to work, but you know that's how it should be. [speaker001:] Was there any feeling when these letters were received that they were to be taken seriously or they were in fact a bluff? [David:] Erm, I think the wording of the letters was [tape change] Oh I was in repudiation of my contract well I dunno what what it means to repude some things, you know I jumped to get a dictionary and found out, but I really don't know what my contract was because I don't think we ever had any. But you know, certainly the way the letters had been written, and the fact that they became by recorded delivery, you know if it was a bluff, it was, certainly fooled me. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What did you decide er as a as a lodge whe when these letters were received? [David:] To be honest I wasn't there, I was down at my sister's wedding. [LAUGHTER] But from what I gathered [] [LAUGHTER] erm yeah we were gonna carry on, we weren't gonna be forced back to work, cos had we gone back under their conditions, then god only knows what I'd be earning now. You know about twenty pound a week I suppose or something stupid. [speaker001:] When er when the co when the strike began to get into into top gear, can you give me any idea of how as a lodge you were organized er picket duty? [David:] Right. When when the strike first started, being in the summer months we needed quite a strong picket line to talk to the tourists, at various gates cos that was the main source of income at the quarry at that time. After the tourist season finished, and various cars were either written off or collapsed or whatever, you know whoever had a car was put forward as the picket you know er the leader of that picket er shift, and then it was just a question of working round. I think we had twelve or thirteen cars, so that was twelve shifts we could cover, we had three gates to cover cover, so and forty men, and just shared them out and that was all computerized, printed out, everyone had a copy, and on the whole it worked very very well. You know we managed to man the gates in working hours and forced the company to shift slate at ungodly hours in the morning, and I think people were impressed that we managed to stick it out. You know I think that's the one drawback of having a small workforce, the fact that if one sh picket didn't turn up, you know all of us on your th the force on the gate if you like was er a third of what it could've been. Or a half. [speaker001:] Had you never er prior to this, had you ne had any experience of er [David:] None at all. [speaker001:] None at all? [David:] None at all. [speaker001:] What was it like the during the first times y you went on the? [David:] It was it was fun when we first started, because the weather was nice, you know it was er you c take a thermos up and have a picnic and sit in the chair and read a book or whatever if there was no one around, but after a while when it became a duty, yeah it was hard work getting up on a winter's morning, knowing full well that you probably wouldn't see any cars if you down in until about ten in the morning, but you still had to be there at seven o'clock, and honking it down with rain or whatever. No it was it was hard work after then. [speaker001:] [cough] In the erm in the early days, how did you how did you approach the people who were coming up up to the gate? [David:] I think from what I've heard, every shift had its own little methods of trying to turn people away or advising them not to come in. Certainly we just told them what the problem was, told them that there was ever such a nice quarry further down the road if they wanted to visit a slate quarry. And for that I think are very thankful. [LAUGHTER]. And er we were truthful, we tried to put our side of the argument, you know there were the few people who said, well I don't really care, and drove in. Well you know, you win some you lose some. But every shift had its own methods. [LAUGHTER] And I won't say any more than that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You you mentioned that er after the time presumably when the the winter began to come on, erm became more of a an obligation how did you keep motivated to turn up? [David:] I think it was just the thought that if one shift didn't turn up or if people stopped turning up, then others wouldn't turn up and it'd just escalate until everyone was just sitting at home in front of the fire and the quarries would function as normal, and the fact, well certainly with me, I thought well we have to make an appearance to show people that we are still on strike and keep, you know everyone who drives past us will be saying, ah hello what's up with them? They'll be reading about it in the paper then, trying to find out, spreading the word, and you know every every time someone drove past the picket line, there was a bit of bad publicity for the quarries and helpful for us. [speaker001:] D d do you think your perspective was a commonly held one? [David:] No there were others who thought, sod it I'm not gonna turn up, you know, why should I? And I don't know, certainly the shift I was with were very loyal, always turned up and you know we ne we never had any problems. There were other shifts where various people after a while dropped out. But you know I think certainly the shift I was with you know I er I was impressed. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [cough] The ones who erm who stuck it the ones who were always there, who always turned up, was there anything about them wh which could which could er er identify them as as people who were, was it age or? [David:] No no I think there were all sorts, all ages, I I think just maybe some were more dedicated to the job and th certainly after a couple of weeks it wasn't family if you like you know, family in inverted commas, there. No I think just dedication and we, if we made an appearance maybe something would come to a head, things would get sorted, if we just said forget it then stay at home, then the quarry managers would say right forget it, we'll get another workforce in, you know it was, I think it was just I think some were dedicated to the job and sort of gave it their best, whereas others were slightly you know, willy nilly about it and well I'll turn up today cos it the weather looks nice, or I'll turn up today because the wife isn't off and or the gas has run out or whatever. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ha during this erm this period what sort of business was being transacted in the lodge? [David:] Erm well certainly Tom would come up every every week, tell us what had happened, if anything. Unfortunately most weeks nothing had happened. And quite often it er degenerated into an argument about picket duties. [LAUGHTER] And the fact that quite a lot of people hadn't turned up on a certain day or that sort of thing. No I think it was just, certainly Tom tried to lift us or because over the winter months when nothing was happening negotiations-wise, you know he knew if he didn't lift us then nothing would and everyone would get so disheartened they'd just say oh sod it and back to work or forget it and what have you. So er bu business-wise I don't think much went on but he's more of an uplifting experience [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was his er presence would you interpret his his presence as being fair fairly crucial for the continuing of the strike? [David:] Whichever way I answer this erm it's gonna be [LAUGHTER]. I think certainly we had to have a figurehead to relate to and in my opinion, Tom was the best one to have there. You know when his boss came in then things went downhill but yeah certainly Tom helped me and just the fact that there was someone there who knew exactly what was going on, be it not a lot but, he was trying to help us, and give us advice and what have you. You know I think he was fairly crucial to keep us all together. [speaker001:] [cough] Are you more say on a more personal level, was it at all obvious during the lodge meetings that people who were out people were out, were under pressure to go back? [David:] Erm, I think at the back of some people's minds there was this pressure, you know that's why a few did return to work and I mean I can understand some of them returning to work but not necessarily for the reasons they've stated. Erm I think they probably thought their jobs were at threat or the continuation of employment in their quarry and the quarry would shut down which manage management had certainly hinted at, yet which I considered to be a bluff, because no one 's gonna kill the goose that lays the golden egg. But in a lot of people's minds, no I don't think there was that you know that threat. There certainly wasn't in mine because I'd I'd been sacked. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Was there any sort of how can I put it, any sort of feeling that certain individuals in the lodge would go back to work? [David:] Yeah I think at the onset of the strike there were a few people who were considered likely to be forced to get back to work or to go back to work, because of what they'd said, because of well just you know because of what they say in the meetings or because of what they didn't say in the meetings. [speaker001:] You indicated that er in a sense the strike became well organized in the sense it had a great deal of support erm both moral and material and presumably financial. [David:] Presumably. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm was there any w part of it of the strike organized in the sense of you giving moral support within the lodge to people who were obviously wavering? [David:] I think that's one of the reasons Tom was there. You know he was always saying, well next week things might get better. So stick together lads just for another week, whatever we we do, if we go back to work or if we stay out, it'll be because of a unanimous vote or a majority vote in this lodge, you know w we came out together, we'll go back together or we'll stay out together. He didn't want to lose people by the wayside you know and I think that was the feeling of most of us. And that's what upset us most about these people going back to work, the fact that a meeting had been taken a few months before in which everybody had voted for us to get the sack, and then all of a sudden they had been threatened and no vote was taken on whether we should stay out or go back, and they just dribbled back to, that really knocked us I think. [speaker001:] The ones who [David:] [cough] [speaker001:] eventually return to work, were they in any sense identifiable as a a group? [David:] Yeah I think they had their own little meetings in various pubs or whatever after our meetings, and certainly the management in one of the quarries seemed to have a lot of information about what went on in our lodge meetings because of various members of this clique, I think we were all fairly sure that they would be returning to work, it was just when that was the crunch. [speaker001:] What was the feeling in the lodge when it eventually happened. [David:] Erm, we weren't too impressed er to put it mildly. But on the other hand we thought I suppose oh good riddance you know er rather than have a few er namby-pamby people you know sitting on the fence, we might be better off without them. But I think the number that went back, you know because of the small workforce the fact that eight or nine returned to work, you know that was virtually half the workforce in one quarry, it made it quite awkward then. [speaker001:] D did you decide er either formally or informally, to take a particular attitude towards the ones that had gone back? [David:] I think everyone's got their own ways of dealing with them, you know certainly some people ignore them, you know I prefer to ignore them rather than taunt them, er possibly because I wasn't really friendly with any of them that did go back, I think people who were close friends have found it very awkward and I know even now they're probably looking daggers at each other you know, that sort of thing. It certainly the community a bit because of them. [speaker001:] Did you do you think their their return to work was in any sense crucial to the outcome of the strike? [David:] Oh yeah, yeah. I think had we managed to stick it together a bit longer, all fifty of us, and just prove to the management that we weren't gonna be starved back to work which seemed to be the way they wanted us to go back, you know because the board had you know escalated, you know I think had we managed to stick it together, certainly the result would've been different. I can't say what it would've been, you know what the outcome would've been but it would've been different. [sniff] [speaker001:] Was there any was there any sense when when I suppose it's one fifth of the workforce returned, was there any sense do you feel er that you weren't going to win? [David:] No I think, I thought we still had a chance, albeit you know the odds had gone down a bit or increased, but er no I thought we still had a chance, it was gonna be harder because if we lost any more by the wayside then you know you're gonna be, it would've been very awkward. No I think we still thought we had a chance. [speaker001:] [cough] You mentioned about erm not being starved back to work. Erm which brings in the. [David:] Oh yeah, brilliant. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] When first started, can you can you what you what you felt about it, what you thought it was going to do? [David:] Well, I think some of the women and a lot of the men thought right well we'll just keep it you know between the men, it's our problem, we'll get it sorted. After a while we realized you know that's not on, it's impossible for us to sort this out you know we need help. I think the wives found it to their benefit to get amongst other wives who were sharing the same problems you know, how to pay the bills, how to buy food, and I think they seemed to get organized pretty well, they certainly helped us a hell of a lot. You know without the women's support group especially and without other support you know, we would've been starved back to work. [speaker001:] Was there any sense in which a there was a surprise at the reaction of the w women, that they first of all became very organized and were very organized and determined, so determined? [David:] Well a at the start of the strike, my wife was just a little bit narked that I was out of work, but after a while when she fully understood the reasons, I think, I'd like to think that she was a hundred per cent behind me and the rest of us. And certainly by what she did with the women's support group I think she was. And cer the determination of the women, that we weren't gonna be starved back to work, we weren't gonna be forced back to work, we weren't just gonna end in chaos and some of us going back and some of us staying out, I think it was the women possibly talking to their husbands or, and just reassuring each other, you know that helped us no end. [speaker001:] Has erm as a lodge, did did you anything from the sort of organization the women had? [David:] Oh yeah. I mean they outclassed us no question, [LAUGHTER] no two ways about it [], I dunno what it is. I hate to admit it in fact but er, no the way they got things organized, got lecture tours, rallies and what have you together, you know I think er taught us an incredible [LAUGHTER] amount []. [speaker001:] Have you have you got any er idea of how i it came about that a group was so organized? [David:] I think possibly because there were outsiders in the group, I dunno. Possibly because some of them might've been councillors and knew the ways that sort of er things went on and how to get things done officially and above board. You know we were all amateurs at the game, the workers, but some of the women you know do it professionally, had worked elsewhere, knew how things went on elsewhere you know, with the D H S S or whatever. I think possibly because women are slightly more organized and what have you. You know they're used to a household budget and they know how to manage on however X many pounds a week. And if you take half of that away you know they know how to manage on that as well, somehow. [speaker001:] Do you think that realization had had s hadn't surfaced until that? [David:] I never knew my wife was such a little get up and goer if you like. [LAUGHTER] Erm never knew she could write such good lectures or speeches. You know she's been hiding her light under a bushel, a bush. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Has any is there way in which you from your observation there,you the erm there's been a in in the relationship between the men and the and the women involved involved as a consequence of er this kind of activity? [David:] Well I do I don't know really but er certainly I I probably discuss work a lot more with my wife now than before, and let her know what's get going on there. And probably other people do as well. You know because, I think we all thought it was our problem, we can sort it out. You know, typical male attitude you know, women no help at all. And after a while you know it was without the women we would've been you know nothing. [speaker001:] What what was the sort of erm help what did er did you observe was was given from the support group? [David:] I think just the fact that my wife knew what was going on, and knew the problems exactly you know, they had their own meetings and the food parcels that they could organize, you know I wouldn't have a clue how to go about it, the fact that various shops refused to have collection points inside, and they wrote off to the management of these shops and got that changed. No they just seemed to know how to go about things a hell of a lot better than we did. as soon as we realized oh hang on a minute you know, they're not all bad these women [LAUGHTER], erm no really we couldn't do without them. [speaker001:] [clears throat] the, it's been put to me to er interview various people or listen to other people if they can tell me about [David:] Mm. [speaker001:] the strike, that the old men [David:] Oh yeah [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] if he had been in charge, things would have been very different. Do you think that erm a n true statement? [David:] I think it's it's hard for me to say because I didn't work for him for long. You know his son took over shortly after I joined the company. Certainly from what I've heard, things would never have happened the way they did, and I think from the sort of very short dealings I had with him, things wouldn't have happened they way they did. Whether they, you know financially we'd be better off or worse off I really couldn't say. I don't think we would've been standing outside the gates. [speaker001:] W What would be the essence of the difference then between him and his son. [David:] I think possibly respect for the workforce. You know his father had started the company and the men, the older men in the quarry had been there from day one with him, you know from when they were producing next to nothing to being quite a profitable concern, and he realized the value of these men, and that you couldn't just say, oh because they disagree with you just well, down the road pal. He realized that experience in the quarrying industry is certainly something that you don't get rid of. You know fair enough, some of the older men can't move as fast as a eighteen year old, but on the other hand it's what they got in their head that counts. I don't know, just generally respect for the workforce. [speaker001:] But this er w this this feeling of erm not being respected,w do you think in that was in any sense a an important motivation for just sticking it out amongst the older men? [David:] Erm I think they knew that if we went back under his conditions, their days would be numbered certainly. You know he'd far prefer to have two or three youngsters earning considerably less, who absolutely nothing about the industry than one slightly older, certainly vastly more experienced man and you know paying him more. You know he'd far prefer to have the cheap workforce that you could tell exactly and appear to know what he's talking about, whereas the older men knew that he knew absolutely [LAUGHTER] nothing []. [speaker001:] Was there [clears throat] any sense of surprise really that as the quarrier was were Welshmen and most of the workforce were Welshmen that in fact things would come to some sort of agreement, that there wouldn't be this kind of [David:] As an outsider [LAUGHTER], probably being the only Englishman in the quarries, you know I I think they were surprised, the fact that it was a local family, I think that's what really rubbed them up the wrong way. Er they'd been to chapel with them, been to school with them, worked in other places with them, and it ended like it did. You know that that did surprise a lot of them. But I don't know quite how the Welsh mentality works you know as regards you know loyalty to one's nation or whatever, but er no,l looking from the outside you know, I I thought it was a bit strange that sort of next door neighbours could end up you know completely opposed to each other. [speaker001:] Do you think it w in any sense has damaged the community? [David:] Oh yeah, it certainly has. Without a question. No erm er even now, and the the strike's been finished I can't remember four months or something, three months, you know the community I think it'll take a a hell of a long time to heal the rifts and mend the scars. Possibly caused by people returning to work, I think those are the ones that really opened up the community and dropped people on either side of the fence as opposed to sitting on top of it. [speaker001:] Do you think y er you and your your mates who were out, do you think you learnt anything from the strike? [David:] Erm, well yeah I've learnt that my wife is more use than just in the kitchen. [LAUGHTER] No I think, all of a sudden you l you realize why you're in a trade union and why you need the press and the media to help you, you know you can't just ignore them. And also why you've got to talk to people, you know get your problems out in the open rather than let them build up and all of a sudden just say right, [puff of air sound] that's it, out the gates, or down tools. And I think you know the management ought to learn, hopefully they will learn a bit by that as well. [speaker001:] You I infer from that you er s you saying that if the same thing this is this is that if the same thing were to occur again your approach would be and you'd be more more of a strategist in the handling of it. [David:] Oh yeah, yeah. I mean second time around you know what's gonna go on. [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] And I know full well now what it's like to be standing on a picket line for seven months. And it's not something that I enjoy, so that you'll try every which way to try and avoid it. But if a matter came to a head that withdrawing my labour was the only way to resolve it, that I thought was the only way to resolve it, I'd go out and do it again. [speaker001:] In those early days, was there a feeling that withdrawal of labour would in fact bring about the effect that you wanted? [David:] Oh yeah, yeah. [LAUGHTER] just chatting with some of my mates, you know, oh it'll be over in a couple of weeks. That was always the way we thought. But that was not to be. [speaker001:] Was there any sp special way in which you contributed to the in the strike, any particular skills you were called upon to. [David:] Well, everyone seemed to think that I knew what I was doing with a computer, so the shifts, the picket shifts were left up to me, any facts and figures needed, databases, addresses were left up to me. Any printouts and things. But no I think er they thought I could speak English better than some of them themselves so they sent me off to English universities or wherever to put across our problems.

[speaker001:] up and call me now [recording giving tel-num] A little music as well we have on the show we have a video from Elvis to give away in the second half of the programme and star guest this afternoon is Mary Whitehouse. [music] [recording giving tel-num] [music] Oh ho ho Steeley Dan and erm reeling reeling out the thingummybobs. Hello that's a nice way to start it isn't it? Good morning good afternoon whatever you like to call O never mind you know the number. Now er we're going to start this morning talking about animals. More specifically why we're so cruel to them. Britain must be an animal erm a country of animal abusers looking at the statistics. Why do we hate animals so much? If you have a view on that O nine O four six four one six four one and I'd like to hear from you all you have to do is pick up the phone and give me a f a call [LAUGHTER] now [] sorry. Did Karen say to somebody on that thing did I hear her say, What are you on? She looked at me and said that when I walked in this morning. What are you on? I didn't like to tell her is was Phylisan but there we are. Anyway erm we've been hearing on this programme recently of course that er people are against hunting against fishing er they say it's cruel. But they are willing quite willing apparently to give and receive pets as presents and millions of them end up getting abused neglected and destroyed. Every year we see that doleful little puppy on the television screen and every year thousands of people give pets for Christmas. The R S P C A have to pick up the pieces and they've launched a campaign to try and stop it and joining me now is Alan. Is this Alan Oritt, Alan? [Alan:] Correct yeah. [James Whale:] OK you're the Superintendent for the north east of England that covers this area too. [Alan:] I'm the Chief Superintendent that covers the the north east of England yes. [James Whale:] OK. So you're the big boss are you? [Alan:] One of them. [James Whale:] One of them. Have you er polished your brass today got it all ready to talk to me I hope you have. Now [clears throat] sorry Alan I've got to turn you up a bit you don't mind do you? [Alan:] No not at all. [James Whale:] It won't hurt there we are that's nice OK. Now Alan, first of all er have we learned anything do you think over the years or do we seem to be getting worse? [Alan:] Sadly the things seem to be getting worse. Er we the Society try our very best to get over the message to people just before Christmas. Please don't give a pet for Christmas. But unfortunately er it seems to fall on many deaf ears and we the Society as other many charities who deal with animals are left to pick up the pieces. [James Whale:] Why is it it seems to me also, and I may be totally wrong here, but it seems people who are least likely to look after themselves are the ones who want to have animals? I mean you see them walking around particularly people who go for the big dogs, you see them walking around with a big thick necks, the tattoos, the er the boots and the jeans rolled up. [Alan:] Well I think that's a little bit to do with a bit of macho image. Erm and er perhaps it's the owners wanting to look rather big. Unfortunately they don't think before they get the pet that you've got to look after it. It takes [James Whale:] But an an [Alan:] time it takes money. [James Whale:] Another thing is of course it's all pets it isn't just dogs and cats. [Alan:] That's right yes. [James Whale:] I mean people have er er budgie or er er er another sort of bird and they think it doesn't need any looking after. [Alan:] That's right. Er just before Christmas you see people think that buying a Christmas present er that's easy. Once you've er got over the newness of it the the the thing can be put in away in a drawer can be put back in it's box. But with an animal it's for life. Er you've got to look after it. You've got to devote a lot of time to the care and attention that it requires. [James Whale:] I I heard the other day what I thought was one of the best advertisements not to have an animal for Christmas very emotive, er I think it was for the R S P C A, and I I'm told I don't think you've heard it but it b basically it's it's er the sound of a er well it's a human pretending to be a dog really and saying you know, Well this is nice my my er family have taken me to the vet, I didn't think I was ill but never mind. Oh here comes a nice man with er an injection. Ah perhaps they're going to give me some vitamins. [Alan:] Yes. [James Whale:] And it goes on and on like this until the voice is erm, I can't feel anything any more. [Alan:] Yes it's it's it was one of the er advertisements or programmes that went out on radio er again this is why I've been trying to get over to people the sad things that have to happen to animals. Erm we hate putting animals to sleep. In fact it was the Society's policy now that we won't put animals to sleep unless there is an extreme er cause for that the sick, diseased. Erm and we're attempting to try to get over to people please please think before you get a pet. [James Whale:] Why is it that in the north of England, particularly in this region of the north of England, we seem to be worse than anywhere else? [Alan:] I I don't think you are. Now I've spent seventeen years in Hartlepool and yes that er [James Whale:] They hate monkeys in Hartlepool did you know that? [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Found a honkey they monkey [Alan:] I wasn't going to say anything the Kirkham Hotel. [James Whale:] they hung it. [Alan:] Er yes and there's one hanging behind their door. Er the thing is that the people in the northeast yes er there is a lot more work done up there by the Society but you know since I've been down in Horsham I have found that the northeast is not alone. There are many other areas in the country where animals are seriously abused. The northeast isn't the only place. [James Whale:] Mm. Ok thank you very much indeed er Chief Superintendent. And Pa Pat I don't think I don't hold out any hope at all that people will pay any attention they will go they'll see a little puppy somewhere they'll say, Oh that's lovely we'll buy that for Tommy er, and then Tommy will abuse it totally and er they'll say, Well the dog was a a waste of time it didn't work properly and er didn't know how to er how to look after itself. [Alan:] May I just say that the majority of people will care for their animals but it is those people who buy, we have s er cases where erm people will turn up on Christmas day and say to their elderly relative, We bought you a puppy. The elderly relative hadn't didn't want a puppy. Never ever wanted a puppy because it makes them a captive person [James Whale:] Mm. [Alan:] they've got to look after something. And this is where the Society is called in er to look after that puppy. Or just after Christmas usually between Christmas and New Year. We're called to waste ground, behind pet shops, a any place to pick up boxes of unwanted puppies, kittens that have obviously been er planned for selling to people er before Christmas. [James Whale:] Good Alan thank you very much indeed. [Alan:] You're very welcome. [James Whale:] Let er let's hope it'll mm [clears throat] won't be like that er mm this er this year. Now he says deep intake of breath don't have a puppy for Christmas. Do as I do have turkey instead. [music] I'm playing this one because I like it. It's a little a little fresh Cajun music from New Orleans from the and I can say that er that's why I'm playing it really. O nine O four six four one six four one any calls about dogs or er any other sort of animal you want to give us a ring call us now. [music] which er er probably rude I dunno it's just. Er B B C radio York you are not in the South of France but as it is persistently snowing around the county at the moment I thought you know a little French flavour. Was it the Beaujolais Nouveau wasn't it this week was it? Everybody seems to be nodding around here I thought it was Thursday it was wasn't it? Could anybody bring us a bottle down here you know because that would be nice wouldn't it on a on a cool Saturday afternoon here as we sit overlooking the grand metropolis of York. It would be nice to have just a little swig of the erm of the new grape. Has anybody tasted it? I haven't tasted it anybody taste give me a call. I cos quite frankly I have never heard such an exciting R S P C A man as that last one so I don't expect to get much response to that. Er so let's talk about the, can't hear can he he's not up in this area? No he doesn't know does he? Er stuff it. Ah anyway so erm I don't think anybody's bothered about er fish and chips arrived have they? Everybody's in there. Thing about this programme it is so it is so crucial to everything that goes on at Radio York while it is happening, they eat in the other room that's how much er interest there is they eat in the other room. Tour buses around York. Should they be banned? Should we get rid of them? Is York a big enough city to have them? You know the open topped buses where they go round they hold up the traffic. I know the tourists are very important to York but for goodness sake it isn't a huge city can't they walk round? Why can't they walk round? I think if we got rid of all those open topped tour buses in York, traffic would be a lot easier. What do you think? Give me a call you know the number O nine O four six four one six four one. You can ring now. You can ring about anything you want actually. Anything you feel like you can ring I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm really you know. Shame of the Killer oh no I don't think we'll do that er look through the Sun see if there's anything interesting erm [sniff] in there [reading] I've got nothing in the Ewbank []. Boxer Chris Ewbank worth around eight million is moaning that he's got no money. What has he done with his money? What has got he didn't give me any. Oh he's bought a big house has he? OK. Usual sort of sex, drugs, rock and roll as you get in the papers on a Saturday as well. Or is he the best dress man too? Chris Ewbank is the best dressed man. That'll upset Jonathan Ross he always thought he was. Er O nine O four six four one six four one. Anybody who can hum by the way the er theme to the television programme Ivanhoe and I would be interested to hear from you as well. Now as the United Nations doesn't have enough on its plate dealing with the problems on earth and obviously they're er they're there at the forefront of everything that happens [LAUGHTER] [clears throat]. Action is being demanded to track down possible visitors from outer space and this is serious. [reading] A small group demonstrators have staged a protest outside the U N Headquarters in New York calling for an end to what they say is a cover up over the existence of U F Os. One of the organizers, Michael Luckman, says President Clinton is scared to acknowledge that superior beings do exist. [] [speaker004:] The United States er government is afraid as are other governments to admit er to their people that there is a higher form of life. Obviously if the U F Os touch down that would mean they would be charge and not Bill Clinton at the White House. [James Whale:] Okay well er I I figure that there must be quite a number of er extraterrestrials [LAUGHTER] around [] around North Yorkshire and I thought it would be quite nice actually if er if there are any extraterrestrials listening at the moment they could ring in and we could have a chat. So if erm if if you yeah yes E T E T phoned when what do you want? I'm not even speaking to you because of that flipping letter. I mean I just noticed it I read, sorry Karen walked into the studio totally uninvited through a red light. That's a particular no no I mean you know for goodness sake can't we av can't we actually ob observe studio discipline? What you doing? [Karen:] Just shutting that up a bit. [James Whale:] That's my knob if I want it open I'll leave it open. [Karen:] Don't flatter yourself. [James Whale:] There we are you see. Just smutty mind haven't you really. Er the individual responsible for this this is your letter from the er director of er the Officers of the Director General's broadcasting Principle Assistant Dalek to the Director General. Get Bert on the phone I want a word with him now. Come on you lot you know where he is get him on the phone I want to talk to him. The individual responsible for this unacceptable behaviour shall remain nameless protect his listening and viewing ratings suffice it to say that his name suggests that he is capable of making a big splash. Is this the sort of person that's running the B B C? I don't believe he wrote this. Erm [reading] Likes to spout a lot and is never happier than when he is chewing up all the small fry in the world []. This is. [reading] The D G joins me in wishing you every success in your future career. [] [Karen:] You're destined for big things obviously. [James Whale:] I wondered whether you were erm I wonder whether you were for the bullet or not? [Karen:] No it's you. [James Whale:] Oh it's me I see. Is traffic ready? [Danny Savage:] Yes. [James Whale:] Are you sure? [Danny Savage:] Honest. [James Whale:] Oh good. We're not going to make a cockup like we did last week are we? We're going to do it nicely nicely [Danny Savage:] Yes. [James Whale:] sort of flow into it. [Danny Savage:] Professionally. [James Whale:] Professionally all right. Actually I've I I I'm I can't do it now but at the next the next traffic I'm going to liven it up a bit for you. Okay. So it's it's going to be nice but er you will enjoy it okay so if you hang on you're not very loud there actually you talk a bit louder cos [Danny Savage:] Talk a bit louder like that? Is that better? [James Whale:] Could you talk a bit butcher as well for goodness sake I mean it's a yes [Danny Savage:] Butcher oh I'm sorry oh dear. [James Whale:] It's an important it's an important bit this traffic because there's snow falling all over the county there are going to be people erm in all sorts of er er problems. [Danny Savage:] It's stopped now. [James Whale:] What? [Danny Savage:] It's stopped now. [James Whale:] It has it? [Danny Savage:] Was snowing yes. [James Whale:] I wonder if anybody would like to ring in and talk to you? [Danny Savage:] Well, [James Whale:] I don't imagine they would for one moment I doubt it no. Anybody want to talk this fe where are you at the moment by the way I know [Danny Savage:] Me? [James Whale:] you're not here I mea are are you in London or where? [Danny Savage:] No I'm in Leeds. [James Whale:] Are you? [Danny Savage:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Tell me they keep you in a garage locked away is that right. [Danny Savage:] That's about the size of the place yeah. [James Whale:] Okay we can't do this I don't like it you know talking to the on the programme we don't like it at all. memo could you not mention the producer quite so much nobody out there knows who he is. I'm going to actually tell everybody who everybody is later so there'll be no trouble. Right, now stand by because I'm going to give you a big build up [Danny Savage:] Right. [James Whale:] and I've got a and then oh this my paper here hold on. [clears throat] B B C Radio York oh no hang on sorry I got that wrong. I I start [Danny Savage:] You do the jingle first. [James Whale:] Do I put no I do a time check. [Danny Savage:] All right then. [James Whale:] Okay I go like this don't butt in Okay. It's twenty seven minutes past twelve, B B C Radio York the station that's always first for travel. [Danny Savage:] We're looking at the roads er for North Yorkshire this Saturday afternoon. On the A one in the Bedale area there's still a mobile lane closure in operation on the north bound carriageway. That's between Bedale and Catterick at the moment and slight delays are possible there. Also on the A one in the Leeming area the inside lane of the south bound carriageway's closed at Holby Grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result there. In Selby there's a demonstration taking place this afternoon it starts at half past one and will go via Barlby Road and Scott Road and some traffic delay delays are likely as a result. Also in York today traffic near to the Knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place there. In the Ripon area weekend roadworks mean the Road will be closed as it passes under the A one bridge delays are likely as a result. At Stockton on Forest Stockton main bridge over the A sixty four is closed for resurfacing work through to six o'clock on Monday morning. And finally in the Thirsk area there are no further reports of snow on the high ground there but some moorland routes may still be a little slippery. Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. [James Whale:] Oh very nice Danny very nice. This is were I pull this up and go. I'm not supposed to talk over the singing bit am I? [Danny Savage:] No. [James Whale:] Yeah. I'm sor Danny I am sorry. [Danny Savage:] Okay next time, an hour's time. [James Whale:] All right? Bye Yeah it'll be good. [Danny Savage:] Okay. [James Whale:] Bye bye. [Danny Savage:] Bye bye. [James Whale:] Danny Savage with the er the traffic. Now the the trains the twelve twenty eight Aberdeen isn't going to leave until twelve fifty four er let's have a look anything else er Liverpool twelve thirty eight Middlesborough Edge Hill er no leaves on the line but you know you don't you never know the er er er I don't understand that the thirteen eighteen what's that? What does Sar Scarborough I suppose that is? Gla go ge gar ge ga has the computer gone mad? Yeah I'm sorry but the computer's gone mad. Stay at home in front of the fire and listen to Radio York. Ha ha. Oh that was slick. Okay now er Garth Brookes my favourite country singer at the moment and er your chance to win this Elvis video okay you have to ring in we're giving this away first you have to ring in and tell me and tell me the next word no I can't do that I can't no I can't do it's too easy okay. All right tell me er complete the sentence of this of this particular hit song that Elvis er had and it's difficult all right. There were three words in the don't ring yet there were three words in the title I'll give you two you have got to give me the last one. It is difficult it is difficult I know all right? O nine O four six four one six four one this is it. Ready? The Hawaiian wedding... Okay no y you can't have got. There are three wo don't answer them yet. Don't let the them ring for a bit. The Hawaiian wedding now there's a word there missing I wonder if I wonder if you can erm if you can guess that if you are the most entertaining winner you will get this Elvis video. [music] [recording giving tel-num] Aha. Garth Brookes We Shall Be Free I love it I love it I love it. O K O nine six four one six four one very few calls out there at the moment I mean er. Noel is there hello Noel how are you? [Noel:] Hello I'm fine thank you. [James Whale:] What are you on here for? [Noel:] Because er [LAUGHTER] because I was invited on to speak about current educational issues [James Whale:] Oh that's good I couldn't you see it's very difficult for me you know I have to look up there I can never distinguish one one one call from another. Right. Do you have a tit do you want me to your a title do you have er? [Noel:] I'm Press Officer for North Yorkshire National Union of Teachers. [James Whale:] Yeah. Yo you're very lucky actually Noel that this is not erm a quiz show. [Noel:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Shall I tell you for why? [Noel:] Why? [James Whale:] I'll tell you why cos the B B C there's a directive just gone out I've just been informed the B B C for quiz show hosts on the B B C to treat their guests with a little more civility. [Noel:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Can you believe it? How much more flipping civil can you get. [Noel:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Have you heard these quiz sho I mean they're all on radio four aren't they? All the quiz show yeah basically? [Noel:] Well rad radio one as well. [James Whale:] Mm [sniff] Where do you live anyway? [Noel:] In Leeds. [James Whale:] Oh good. Mm it's freezing outside isn't. [Noel:] It certainly is yes. [James Whale:] What are we talk oh education we're talking about education right yep. Okay let me do the prog right er [clears throat] Noel that's a funny name Noel by the way isn't it? [Noel:] It's erm appropriate for the time of the year nearly. [James Whale:] Mm It's like pulse but not. [Noel:] Oh oh er yes. [James Whale:] Is that how you pronounce it? [Noel:] Erm it it is pronounce to [James Whale:] Not the Noel y yeah okay. Anyway right so erm head teachers [clears throat] in the area have been complaining their schools are not tidy not cleaned sufficiently. [Noel:] Yes. [James Whale:] Why? I mean why why are our children going to school in in pig sties? [Noel:] Well I think it's er down to the competitive tendering process where the County Council has had to put out the cleaning contracts for schools to tender. There were problems a few years ago when it first started with th the initial contract which was was won by the the County's own direct service organization and now it seems we're having a repeat of of those problems. Er with the new contracts that started in September erm basically it seems that some teachers are having to do bits of cleaning themselves to keep their their classroom up to up to scratch up to the standards they ought they ought to be. Erm we're hearing reports that parts of schools having to to be closed or th threatened to be closed because they're not sufficiently hygienic for pupils or teachers to work in. [James Whale:] Oh how disgusting. [Noel:] And er [James Whale:] That is isn't that disgusting? [Noel:] It certainly is yes. [James Whale:] That is disgusting yes. So all these a lot of these firms are not up to the job why do why don't you sack them people are not up to the job why don't they get sacked? [Noel:] Well there are monitoring systems which are meant to be in place a and which may be er are not are not effective enough erm. I mean I've heard representatives for County Council th this week saying that er as far as they were concerned th the standards weren't sufficiently low yet for them t to take action. But basically th every time the contract comes up for renewal, what will happen for a company to attempt to win the contract it's got to cut the hours of its employees and its also got to try and c cut the costs erm by cutting pay and that's the way that's the way contracts are won in this situation and as long as that keeps happening then the situation's going to get steadily worse. [James Whale:] What are we going I mean we we've heard also I'm changing the subject now because that was the the sort of political answer I'd expect and er I suppose until I get somebody else come on and say he's talking absolute whatever er I mean I think it is down to the people who live and work with the school. I think if you all make a mess you should be severely reprimanded quite frankly expect other people to come round and pick up your mess. [Noel:] Well that's something that a as a teacher we're erm in my school we're constantly saying t to the pupils I mean if they ha they have a they have a certain responsibility t to tidy up after them and t to try and keep their work area tidy that's not the same as er as cleaning at the end of the day as sweeping up all all the dust and and so on. [James Whale:] What about this mum's army of teachers is this going to come to fruition as some point or not? [Noel:] I don't I don't believe it is erm at the mo well earlier this week a report was published by the National Commission on Education which was er an independent erm Commission that was set up erm and they they've said that basically what we need to be doing is t if we're trying to raise standards is to keep the idea of having an all graduate profess profession followed up by high quality for train training for teachers once they've actually started work. [James Whale:] The problem there is that graduates are so terribly boring and uninteresting people basically aren't they that they find it difficult to impart their er You would? [Noel:] I would yes. [James Whale:] You're a graduate. [Noel:] I am yes. [James Whale:] Yeah I thought so anyway. Er I would have thought that graduates find it more difficult to impart knowledge to people than anybody else. [Noel:] No I'd I'd I don't I don't believe that that's the case erm [James Whale:] Karen come to the studio please. Karen come to the studio please. Karen co sorry I just want to do something go on.... Yeah so okay I'm I'm I'm [Noel:] I don't think that's the case. [James Whale:] I'm I'm winding you up a little bit but no I mean there's a little method in this. When are the teachers going to stop being political animals and get down to teaching rather than try to score points off the Government? [Noel:] Oh we're [James Whale:] Cos anybody can score points off them I mean it's simple. [Noel:] We we well we'd love to be able to get get on with our job and er wi with far less interference than we receive at the moment but er when government insists on er on interfering to the extent it does an and there have been well I've been reading recently so something like five hundred new powers the Education Secretary has given himself in the in over the last last few years. [James Whale:] Well he's not going to be there for ever. [Noel:] Decisions are made decisions are made erm there that we and we have to live with the consequences of them. If they affect education then it's our responsibility to speak up about them. [James Whale:] You see I I think er er probably one of the best erm Ministers of er of er Education that er has been for quite some considerable time and I bet you throw your hands up in horror when I say this you will totally disagree and I'm talking here cos his name's just slipped [LAUGHTER] out of my mind []. Who was tha who was that oh for goodness sake tall thin gaunt looking man, always had to have about fifteen spoonfuls of sugar in his coffee whenever I met him? [Noel:] S Sir Keith Joseph? [James Whale:] Er you knew you see Sir Keith Joseph. Now I I remember talking to him for hours once on a programme about education and this was when he first said what we want is teachers to be accountable. And I'm a great believer in everybody should be accountable right? [Noel:] Yes. We well I've no objections to that to that at all. [James Whale:] No none of you do now but when he first suggested it everyone was up in arms and he poor old soul I remembered he said, I've had enough change I I believe in this I I've I've tried I'm too old now [sniff] and out he walked. Is there a chocolate machine in the building? And off he went. He was addicted to chocolate. [Noel:] I I I think erm a lot of teachers would now look back on those days with er a certain fondness now bearing in mind what's what's happened since and the the the succession of education secretaries we've had since since then I mean had the only one in recent years who I would say has attempted a genuine dialogue with the teachers and tried to do something constructive is John McGregor. [James Whale:] So when, and I would agree with you again, so when are the teachers going to be accountable, when is somebody who is a bad teacher and heck there are quite a few of them, you know it only takes a couple in every school to make it difficult for the rest, going to be got rid of you know you are not up to the mark out. [Noel:] There there are systems in place in schools already for that and there always have been. [James Whale:] You jest with me now come on we're we're we're being serious Noel if you are a teacher it is almost impossible to sack you. Almost totally impossible. [Noel:] That's simply not true. There there are disciplinary procedures in in all schools erm which are there to be used. [James Whale:] Why are they never used then? Are all teachers too good to be sacked because it is it is as rare as erm teeth in chickens. [Noel:] I think it's I think it's very easy to er to ex exaggerate the problem to take one anecdotal evidence of of one about one or two cases and maybe about one or two people and say this is a major problem in every school. [James Whale:] Let me put it this way to you Noel [Noel:] I don't think it is. [James Whale:] Let me put it to you this way you know as well as I do people who really ought to be doing something else other than teaching. You know that as well as I do and those people don't seem to be given the encouragement to move on to another profession. [Noel:] I I [James Whale:] Some are some are promoted to head teachers I know and I knew you were going to say that. [Noel:] I wasn't going to say [LAUGHTER] that no []. Erm no I I honestly don't think that er that the the problem is as big as as big as you you say it is and I I think the the structures are there to deal with that and if if people had you know if people used them then they would they would work and they from time to time that they are used and you know it it is not impossible to get rid of rid of a teacher in in the way you are suggesting. [James Whale:] Okay Noel thank you for your er your time and being a good sport this afternoon and I hear you have a little one you had better go back and sort things out. [Noel:] That's right. [James Whale:] Okay. [Noel:] Okay thanks. [James Whale:] Thanks a lot Noel bye bye. Noel from the er N U T. Erm I don't know what this is serious point actually if if you fancy yourself as one of these so called mums and I think it is a little patronizing the er title of a mums' army of teachers, if you think that maybe you could do that and you'd be interested in doing that and you think it's quite a good idea I'd be interested in hearing from you, all right? O nine O four serious talk O nine O four six four one six four one erm if you'd like to do that give me a call. Now where is er where is Rita where are you Rit all right my love all right where's Rita I've got I've got yellow I've got red I've got blue I've got green. What number is Rita on give me a number because I haven't got white? Twenty four Okay right if I put that down there Rita hi. [Rita:] Hi. [James Whale:] How are you? [Rita:] I'm fine thanks. [James Whale:] Hang on let me do that again that's good that isn't it? Makes a little noise click click click click. Can I have a chip does anybody hi Rita [Rita:] Hi. [James Whale:] [singing] Lovely Rita meter [] [Rita:] Oh don't please. [James Whale:] I hate that isn't it awful to be obvious. [Rita:] Well that's what everybody sings to me when them and they meet me for the first time or get introduced to me. [James Whale:] Oh they don't. Where are you calling from we're very loud with callers today I know I'm not the most exciting thing on radio but you know there must be some callers out there somewhere? [Rita:] Where am I. I'm at a little place called Ellenthorpe. [James Whale:] Ellenthorpe. Is the weather as bad as people keep telling me because it was Okay when I drove in this morning. [Rita:] No it's not it's it's quite mild, there's no frost on the ground it's all gone. [James Whale:] So what's this about snow at Thirsk? [Rita:] Well they can keep it we don't want it. [James Whale:] Bit strange in Thirsk anyway I thought. I think there'd probably somebody with expanded polystyrene ceiling that's been pulled out. [Rita:] Probably. Yeah it's it's actually it's not too bad it's a bit misty it's a bid hazy erm slight wind but it's not bad. [James Whale:] It's not? [Rita:] No it's not bad [James Whale:] No Okay. I've just got to get something do you mind? [Rita:] No go and get your chips or whatever. [James Whale:] No I've got I've got I wanted t [Rita:] It's all right my hubby can wait for his lunch I aren't bothered. [James Whale:] Jolly well ought to as well. Er I wanted to talk to Jim Bowen you see about this quiz show host ought to be a a little nicer than they are and apparently his answer machine is on at home. [Rita:] Well I must admit James I've threatened to put mine on. [James Whale:] Have you? [Rita:] Well Karen said that if I won the competition she'd ring back. [James Whale:] Mm and then you thought, Oh God I've done it now. [Rita:] But I had to speak to you you see and I dialled you while you actually said on the air that anyone that won had to speak to you and said to Karen look if you ring back I'll [LAUGHTER] put the answer phone on []. [James Whale:] I know I thought that was good because then everybody puts the phone down you see and they all think they're going to be terribly clever. [Rita:] Yes I think it depends on what kind of a message you actually have on your recorder to start off with. [James Whale:] Is your's rude. [Rita:] No it just says that it's basically to the effect of that the answering machine is quite reliable [James Whale:] I I [Rita:] and if you leave a message it will be dealt with and people do leave a message, whereas before when it just said I'm sorry I'm not available they didn't they just put the phone down. [James Whale:] I usually leave a message saying I'm having sex at the moment ring back in about three seconds. [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] And do they? [] [James Whale:] Sometimes sometimes they never ring back at all ever. [LAUGHTER] [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] I should've just say you're bragging. [] [James Whale:] Yes you're right, you been speaking to my wife? [Rita:] Well yeah we'll probably use the same supermarket I don't know. [James Whale:] So listen I wan er er so is there any snow out there at all anywhere? [Rita:] No no hon [James Whale:] There's not. Any chips out there? [Rita:] Well to be honest Ja I can't see that far normally from where I live I can see the White Horse bank but it's shrouded in mist at the moment erm no I can't see so I couldn't tell you whether there there is snow up there or not. [James Whale:] Okay. I also I I also erm er what was I going to say I would take the disc but I can't find a way of getting into this machine actually it's broken erm [LAUGHTER]. [Rita:] It sounds about par for the B B C. [James Whale:] Young Danny, the big boss now weekend said er take a disc take a disc and I said yeah well it's knackered er erm. What? [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Sorry. I'm doing that talking to you look for Jim Bowen's mobile phone number so I thought we'd give him a ring that'll surprise him wont it? [Rita:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Okay er [Rita:] Can the B B C afford these phone calls? [James Whale:] I don't think so no I don't think so at all that's why they don't call anybody back. [Rita:] Oh well you can call me back. [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] Erm oh hang on just a minute can you hang on there? [Rita:] Yeah Well hubby's waiting [James Whale:] I'll I'll get to you in a minute. [Rita:] for his lunch but it doesn't really matter. [James Whale:] No stuff that who cares? Er [Rita:] hungry. [James Whale:] He well so am I. Actually I was hoping someone's going to bring in some er some some Nouveau Beaujolais Nouveau cos a new one came out on Thursday. Is there nobody round here listening that can erm that could bring in some Beaujolais Nouv no no little Off Licence that will do this free publicity on the B B C to come in a say, Look I'm an odd bin or something like that? [Rita:] I I thought the B B C I thought the B B C couldn't advertise then? [James Whale:] No the B B C can't. [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] But you can? [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] Well. [Rita:] You're the exception to the rule I suppose? [James Whale:] Yes you wait till you get severely beaten and then you say I'm very sorry I didn't mean to do that. Hang on hang on I've got Rachael from er from Guide Friday Buses. Oh golly hang on just a minute. [Rita:] I think I think I think you've probably stirred a hornets nest up with that. [James Whale:] Hang on just a minute. Er Rachael? Rachael? [Rachael:] Hello. [James Whale:] Is that you Rachael? [Rachael:] Yes it is. [James Whale:] God I've I've been in love with you ever since I met you all those where are you at the moment? [Rachael:] I'm actually in the office in Tower Street over looking [James Whale:] Are you? [Rachael:] Clifford's Tower. [James Whale:] Why don't you wonder over here? [Rachael:] There isn't actually a bus in oh yes there is a bus in sight. [James Whale:] Why don't you wonder over here and bring a bottle of wine and we'll share it over the next hour of the show. [Rachael:] Oh I can't I've got things to do in the office, a busy company here. [James Whale:] I never did like those open topped buses. [Rachael:] Well unclear [James Whale:] So I'll be back to you. [Rachael:] at the moment I can see about half well a dozen people sat on one of the buses. [James Whale:] Can you? [Rachael:] Yes. [James Whale:] No wonder there's no traffic moving out there today. [Rachael:] There is traffic moving, it's moving quite freely apart from the cars going into the car park just behind Clifford's Tower. [James Whale:] Is that right? [Rachael:] That's right yeah. [James Whale:] There's never any spaces behind Clifford's Tower so I don't know how you're just telling me fibs aren't you? [Rachael:] Well they're all they're all queuing up to go in there so I not sure. [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] I just don't understand all these buses with the open tops it's freezing out there and all these tourists look they could walk Rachael. [Rachael:] Well are tourists [James Whale:] They could walk, why don't they walk? [Rachael:] It's a seven kilometre tour. It takes an hour and a lot of people don't want to walk around the city they'd like the option of going around on the bus. [James Whale:] What did the Minister of Health say the other day? Obesity obesity and lack of exercise. and that's what you're encouraging Rachael. [Rachael:] Not encouraging lack of exercise we're encouraging an informative tour around the city with a qualified guide. [James Whale:] You still got that beautiful blonde hair? [Rachael:] [LAUGHTER] We're not on the air are we? [James Whale:] No no no we're not on the air. Heaven forbid I wouldn't talk to you like this if we were on the air [LAUGHTER] would I []? Anyway so go on. [Rachael:] Right. [James Whale:] What were we talking about? So you don't mind [Rachael:] Talking about the buses. [James Whale:] Yeah. So I mean I think it'd great Guide Friday you run around little flag in the air, I've seen them in London and you can do that and and and people get so fit. Not that you need to be any fitter than you are. [Rachael:] Well they are fit cos they get on and off at any of the stops they go along to the attraction that they want to do. [James Whale:] Yeah I walk from my front door to my car as well and people say that's not enough exercise. [Rachael:] Well the a there's the Barbican Centre for the exercise perhaps they should encourage the tourists there then. [James Whale:] Mm... Forgetting all about [clears throat] oh dear I've got a frog when I go on the air I'll clear that. Er can you hang on a minute? [Rachael:] Yes certainly. [James Whale:] I just got a we commercial breaks call you back in a minute don't go away yet. Rita? Rita? Oi Rita... where's Rita gone. You cut her off well get her back on. Get her back on or she's not having this I'm sorry about that hang on just a minute block your ears I'm just going to spin round again okay hang on oops er are you their Rachael are you there? [Rachael:] I'm here yes. [James Whale:] Oh you are okay fine good got you. I can't open me thing here. the the er music blowing machine. There's a problem hang on. are you do you ever go in for karaoke and stuff stuff like that? [Rachael:] No I don't. [James Whale:] Yeah all right never mind about the photo give me your teddy I don't care about that. Er Rachael [Rachael:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Yeah what are you doing this evening? [Rachael:] [LAUGHTER] I'm going to Seaham this evening. [James Whale:] Seaham who? [Rachael:] Seaham up in er County Durham. [James Whale:] Oh I know yeah I know Seaham yeah. What were are you doing? I thought I want it on the C Ds. [speaker010:] Oh right sorry. [James Whale:] I should think so. Playing with me knobs. Look hang on I've got one queu are you all right there Rachael? [Rachael:] Hello. [James Whale:] Do you get fed up with people saying, Are you really like that one in Coronation Street? [Rachael:] No I don't actually cos I'm [LAUGHTER] nothing like her []. Erm [James Whale:] You look similar. [Rachael:] Well that's er that's a insult. [James Whale:] It's not. [Rachael:] It is. [James Whale:] Yeah. I thought when we did we did that programme out to lunch in the summer and you came along and we talked all about buses and er your organization and I I I was very nice to you actually. [Rachael:] You were very pleasant. [James Whale:] And didn't say you know, It's flipping these tour buses in York that cos all the other people trouble because you can't get anywhere they clog the roads up. [Rachael:] Well that's really not our problem I mean that's to do with the deregularization of er bus companies allowing any anybody to start up a bus company. [James Whale:] Oh that's a bit political Rachael isn't it a bit political I wasn't expecting that [Rachael:] featured the last er three years some of the other companies have only been here since last year and the year before so I mean we're a national tour operator experienced in running open topped tours around cities. [James Whale:] Could you hang on just a minute don't go away just stay there hold on. Ah Rita. [Rita:] Yes James. [James Whale:] Good. Sorry about that [Rita:] Still here. [James Whale:] What? [Rita:] I said I'm still here. [James Whale:] You had to go off and make his nosh didn't you? [Rita:] No I didn't he's in the kitchen being a very very domesticated husby and he's making own nosh. [James Whale:] He's not is he? [Rita:] Yeah he is oh heck I've got to get the news in haven't I that worries me. Well don't worry if you ask him nicely he might even make you a bacon sandwich. [James Whale:] Would he? What's his name? [Rita:] Alan. [James Whale:] [shouting] Alan. Make us a bacon sandwich. [] What? [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Just a minute he wants to know what you said. I don't think I dare. [] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Anyway Hawaiian Wedding. [Rita:] Song. [James Whale:] Oh well done what a difficult competition yeah. [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you James. [] [James Whale:] Now just could you sing it first. [Rita:] Could I what? [James Whale:] Sing it. [Rita:] James you've got a licence to go on the air haven't you? [James Whale:] Doesn't matter. [Rita:] It does cos if I sing if I sing you [James Whale:] The B B C have got to give everybody a fair crack of the whip. [Rita:] Now come on James you were saying you were short on callers the few that you've got you don't want to get rid of. [James Whale:] Yes Karen all right I'm building up to that for goodness sake. [Rita:] Oh James no James you want some listeners I'm sorry love. [James Whale:] What about Hound dog? [Rita:] Hound yeah well you know that hound dog whines? [James Whale:] Yes. [Rita:] That's good to what I sing like. [James Whale:] What about Don't Be do you know the words to Don't Be Cruel. Come here a minute Karen. Come here you said you do come here she's a bit of a singer is Karen. [Rita:] I know yes I know she is. [James Whale:] Anything to get er to be a star. [Rita:] I've heard her at Christmas time. [James Whale:] How come? [Rita:] Well she I think it was Karen that did something for Children in Need last year and she sang on the air. [James Whale:] Children in Need, people in greed. [Rita:] No. [James Whale:] Come here. [Rita:] James you were once a child. [James Whale:] I was never a child I was born bald. [Rita:] Ooh gawd heaven help us. [James Whale:] Hound dog Don't hound dog. [Karen:] Hound dog. [James Whale:] Go go on one two three four. [Rita:] ... Woof woof. [James Whale:] Come on Karen sing it. [Karen:] It's undignified, karaoke it's not [James Whale:] [singing] You ain't you ain't nothing but a [] [Karen:] Hound dog. [James Whale:] What's the next line? [Karen:] Crying all the time. [James Whale:] [singing] Crying all the time [] [Karen:] You ain't nothing but a hound dog. [James Whale:] Yes. [Karen:] Crying all the time. [James Whale:] That's good Okay. [Karen:] You ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine. [James Whale:] She knew it all the time. [Rita:] Yes she did she's good. [James Whale:] Yeah. Okay well the only thing about this is and we're going to send this to you and er you take it out and get Rita's address. [Karen:] Thanks. [James Whale:] That's Okay. [Karen:] Bye. [James Whale:] Bye. Er it's karaoke video as well. So you do need a karaoke machine. [Rita:] Well it's all right because my daughter's got one her music cassette thing whatever. [James Whale:] Mm. [Rita:] Mm so we can do it on that. [James Whale:] Oh. [Rita:] And have a good laugh and think of you. [James Whale:] I think I might ring Nina I've just found her home phone number in my book. [Rita:] Have you. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Rita:] Why do you want to ring her, James. [James Whale:] I don't know I just thought about it be quite funny. [Rita:] I thought you were ring James er Bowen. [James Whale:] Jim Bowen I am I am I've got a number I'm going to ring him in minute. [Rita:] You are? [James Whale:] Yeah. Okay go and make me a bacon sandwich [Rita:] Yeah. [James Whale:] and I'll see you later. [Rita:] Okay then. [James Whale:] All right darling it's been lovely. [Rita:] I bet you can't find to come and pick it up. [James Whale:] No I can't. [Rita:] No. [James Whale:] Oh [drawn out] See you later. [Rita:] Bye James. [James Whale:] Bye bye. Okay let's er let's go back where are you Rachael? [Rachael:] Hello I'm in Tower Street. [James Whale:] I know you're in Tower Street I'm just being facetious really. [Rachael:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Any way [clears throat]. Hound dog can you do Hound Dog no don't don't be cruel how does that go? [Rachael:] Sorry? [James Whale:] Sing Don't be cruel. [Rachael:] I'm not singing at all. [James Whale:] Why not? [Rachael:] Because I can't sing. [James Whale:] Oh hang on the ex-directory number's ringing. That's the boss he'll be complaining. So there's no chance of getting rid of all these coaches and getting people to walk round the er the guided tours and stuff like that? [Rachael:] Er well that would defeat the whole object of offering the open topped tours if people were actually walking. [James Whale:] Well it would defeat you making a few bob. [Rachael:] There is actually there is actually walking tours around the city for those people who wish to opt for [James Whale:] Mm. [Rachael:] for a walking tour. So there is the option of doing both the walking tour or the bus tour. [James Whale:] Okay hang on just a minute. Er Danny? He's the bo he's what they call the editor of the programme. [Rachael:] Right. [James Whale:] Okay just in case you're wondering who I'm talking t [shouting] Danny anything else you want me to ask her? [] He cos he are you sure we've done this erm everything all right? Okay right sing along with me Rachael. Are you ready? [Rachael:] I'm not singing. [James Whale:] You're not singing. You're not singing? [Rachael:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [speaker001:] Hooray. [James Whale:] Oh no I didn't. [music] Oh here we go. I want you to sing along with this it's very good you'll enjoy this all right. Everybody at home join in as well here we go. [music] [singing] Robin Hood riding through the glen. [] Rachael? [Rachael:] Hello. [James Whale:] Come on. Sing [Rachael:] I'm not singing honestly. [James Whale:] Show that this guide [Rachael:] I can't sing I'd embarrass myself. [James Whale:] Yeah but nobody can sing [Rachael:] I deter anybody who'd every wanted to get on one of the [LAUGHTER] buses []. [James Whale:] No you wouldn't they'll all come on and say where's that girl that sings Robin Hood. [Rachael:] I don't think they would. [music] [James Whale:] Are you not going to do this? [Rachael:] I'm not I'm sorry I'm not singing. [James Whale:] Are you not? Okay right do a little dance for me go on. [Rachael:] I've got people in the office, I can't dance. [James Whale:] You've got people in the office? [Rachael:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Customers? [Rachael:] Er got two guides, a guide and a driver to tell you the truth. [James Whale:] Okay could you let me talk to the driver? [Rachael:] Yes certainly. [James Whale:] Put the driver on I want to talk to the driver. [singing] Robin Hood Robin [] I like that it's great. Haven't got another record queued up. [speaker001:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hi who are you? [speaker001:] Julie. [James Whale:] Are you a driver? [speaker001:] Don't sound so surprised, that's really sexist. [James Whale:] Why? [speaker001:] The way you said that.... Just because I'm a female. [James Whale:] I didn't say that. I just said are you a driver? [speaker001:] Yeah I am. [James Whale:] Oh I mean you just sound so young to be a driver that's what I was going to say. [speaker001:] Well I am. [James Whale:] You are young? [speaker001:] I am. [James Whale:] You are young. [speaker001:] I am. [James Whale:] Yes you are young. [speaker001:] Yes. [James Whale:] Yeah. You are also a woman. [speaker001:] I am yes. [James Whale:] Yeah yeah yes yeah. You're not that blonde one I've noticed driving around and nearly swerved to have a better look at the other day are you? [speaker001:] Well no that just might have been Rachael you were just been talking to. [James Whale:] No she does she says she she wouldn't be allowed to drive she says scatter brain you wouldn't let her drive would you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [James Whale:] Mm? [speaker001:] No I can't say anything can I? [James Whale:] Is she your boss? [speaker001:] Sort of yes. [James Whale:] Do you get well paid for this job? [speaker001:] No. [James Whale:] You don't well you don't deserve to get well paid because [speaker001:] Not for all the hassle we get. [James Whale:] for all the time that we have to sit behind you when we're trying to drive around blowing our horns going [shouting] get out the way []. [speaker001:] Well ninety per cent of the time you shouldn't be where we are cos it's no cars. [James Whale:] Absolute rubbish. [speaker001:] Unless you're a taxi. [James Whale:] Don't they know who I am? What do you mean I shouldn't be there? [speaker001:] Oh I'm really sorry. What sort of car do you drive round in? [James Whale:] What would you think I drive round in? [speaker001:] I'll I'll make a point in looking out for ya. [James Whale:] I've got I've got a huge a huge turbo Bentley with a great big whale stuck on the front. [speaker001:] Oh right. [James Whale:] And Andy written down the back if you want to scratch it. [speaker001:] Oh well no I won't do that I'll just drive round at five mile an hour in front of ya. [James Whale:] You do that anyway. [speaker001:] Oh no no be fair it's fifteen usually. [James Whale:] Is it? Er all these people gawping at everything. I if I was a building the last thing I would want would be people gawping at me. [speaker001:] Well where does all the revenue come from into York? [James Whale:] Int I don well not from you lot does it? [speaker001:] No but it comes from the tourists that come on our bus. [James Whale:] Does it? [speaker001:] Oh ho yes. [James Whale:] Oh there you're being serious with me now. I've just [speaker001:] Me? [James Whale:] I've just got to find a record here hang on. I I've got okay. Er right. It's probably news time fairly soon. [speaker001:] Probably. [James Whale:] Yeah I when are you dri are you driving this afternoon? [speaker001:] I am. [James Whale:] Is this sort of you know yes no interlude here? [stomach rumble] [LAUGHTER] Was that you? [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No it wasn't. [] [James Whale:] That was you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You want to get yourself some dinner. [James Whale:] I know I'm so they they eat you see they've eaten fish and chips and it goes through the air conditioning and it comes into the studio you all you can smell is fish and chips. [speaker001:] And is makes your stomach rumble. [James Whale:] It does. [speaker001:] That is sad. [James Whale:] Okay. [speaker001:] That is so sad. [James Whale:] All right. [speaker001:] We all feel sorry for you. [James Whale:] I'm going now. [speaker001:] Are you? [James Whale:] I've got to go listen it's been lovely t talk to talk talking to you if you could pop in with a bottle of I wanted to try the new Beaujo If anybody's got it and they come over, just ring the ring the door bell. I'll go to blue hang on I'll just go to blue hang on a minute there don't go away. Hello? Hello blue. Hello. Alan. Yes. Alan. That's him yes. My fan at B B C headquarters. That's right yes. Oh I see Karen's fan. Well yes I well I like to think I'm a fan everybody's fan. You do? Yes. Yes well we all like to live in little dream worlds don't we? Yes. Listen I I'm going to come back and talk to you in more lengths Yes. after the news. Forward to it James. What? I look forward to it. Oh you look forward to it yes I'm I'm good I'm glad about that. Have you got the er have you got the wine there or not? Yes of course. Well why don't you bring it over here? Well we can't I'm afraid we're always too drunk to drive. You're too dru it's [LAUGHTER] one o'clock in the afternoon [] you can't be drunk. Well we are we've got all this wine to ship. I thought you might like to send somebody over in the van and pick a bottle or two up and you can have a party in the studio after your show. You do sound a bit per per per erm ber ber paralysed slightly don't you? Yeah okay we'll come back and talk to you in a moment don't go away. Okay. And er we'll send somebody over to [clears throat] well maybe who knows. Er right Mary Whitehouse to come we'll be talking about sex and the Buddha of Suburbia and er whatever else sort of takes her fancy and we are going to liven up the traffic I think at er round about one twenty five and find out what's happening there. Now do I do it over the music across the north I do it over the music Okay right here we go [clears throat]. Across North Yorkshire and around the world this is Radio York from the B B C. [Alan:] Health workers from North Yorkshire join a day of action in London to protest at the Government's health policies. Almost eighty people have been killed in a toy factory fire in China and site workers from Middlebrook Mushrooms marched through Selby to mark the first anniversary of their dispute. B B C news at one o'clock I'm Claire Frisby. [jingle] Thousands of health workers are marching through the centre of London in protest at the Government's health reforms. Later they will hold a rally in Trafalgar Square. Stuart Flinders has this report. [speaker004:] Coaches and specially chartered trains brought the protesters from Scotland Yorkshire and all parts [tape change] [Alan:] Locally moderate on the Wolds and the Pennines but some heavy falls on the North York Moors and the northern Pennine hills. It's going to be cold today with maximum temperatures only four degrees celsius but six degrees celsius on the coast. B B C news and weather for North Yorkshire at five past one. [James Whale:] B B C Radio York. We're here until two and erm now look oh yes Alan can you hang your phone up Alan we'll call you back sorry about that. O nine O four six four one six four one. Stuart how's it going? [speaker004:] Fabulously. [James Whale:] All those women you've got out there.... Yes you do. [speaker004:] No I don't. [James Whale:] You're trying very hard with. [speaker004:] they don't belong to me either of them. [James Whale:] Don't they? [speaker004:] No [James Whale:] Just send one of them in here and then I'll see if I can er I don't mind really I'll see if I can which one would like me to chat up for you I suppose really that's basically it. All right I'll try for you I'll try for you I'll see if I can O nine O four six four one six four one. Is there enough sex on television? Er and should we ban the tour buses from the centre of York or anything else you want to talk about give us a call now. We could do with a call anybody there anyone's near a phone just pick it up and ring me all right just ring now I'll give erm we'll give a million pounds to the first caller fingers crossed. [music] Okay you're absolutely right er we did play that at the beginning of the programme we had a little trouble with our C D what happened there Stuart it went off the air didn't it?... Oh I see I see so you plugged it in? Oh that's good if I if I kick the er if I kick the erm plug myself I could have plugged it back in. Oh good well I must remember that next time it's always good to know how to do these technical things. I didn't think you wanted to be bored by that again and Alan's back on there so er where are you there you are right. Am I ah sorry am I Alan ah yes I'm sorry yes I who do you want to be that's the thing who do you want to be? For a moment but no Yeah. My friend Mike with the big house hasn't phoned in yet has he either he usually phones in the last part of the programme. Yeah he's probably drinking his Beaujolais now I should think. You think so? Yeah. Yeah he's a very you know it's funny I know it's the worst time to do a phone in actually because people are doing other oh I've got me foot caught in the whatsit but erm I thought I thought we'd get loads of people on saying I'd been very rude saying that this was er er er nation of animal haters and abusers. Erm are you talking to Perhaps they didn't understand what I meant. me James? What? Are you talking to me? I don't mind really it's er er you know six of one I thought you might be talking to somebody else in the studio. No no I thou I'll I'll talk to you if you want. All right I've just been making some notes here. Yes? Erm just just recap you don't mind if I take note while your talking do you? No I'll go and talk to the wall. Ah [LAUGHTER] ah no Who are those people back to dogs that in North Korea you know they don't just last till Christmas unclear No the keep A family of four will make them last right through to the new year. [LAUGHTER] They do I mean they have to because meat's rationed in North Korea you know. You're absolutely right you're absolutely right and and I think That's that's nonsense about Hawaii You melt the bones down into stock. The at Hawaiian What? weddings. Coy? Have you ever been to one? A Hawaiian wedding? Yes. No I haven't been a Hawaiian wedding. Well they pie [pronounced poy] it's awful. Oh pie. Pie. I thought you said coy you know. Yeah. Like apple pie or rhubarb pie. Apple pie? Erm. You know apple pie. I'm just looking Chocolate pie. This er Sorry we're being a bit this is too too surreal for the B B C you're going to get on the line. They don't understand. Hang on just a minute don't go away I want you back stay there Alan. All right? Are you listening to me? Yes I am I'm all ears. Stay sit stay. They call be Clark Gable go on. [clears throat]. Jim? [Karen:] Hello. [James Whale:] Hi how's Pickering? Have you got any snow? [Karen:] Not yet. [James Whale:] No? [Karen:] promised some. [James Whale:] You're promised some? [Karen:] promised some this year. [James Whale:] Oh gosh not too much I hope. [Karen:] er Sunday yes tomorrow. Going to be er quite a a lot on the Moors so they reckon. [James Whale:] Well I'm going to keep off the Moors then. [Karen:] [LAUGHTER] I don't blame you. [James Whale:] I'm not going anywhere near the Moors. [Karen:] Australia soon. [James Whale:] Australia? [Karen:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Who? [Karen:] Me. [James Whale:] What for? [Karen:] Well I'm going for the winter. [James Whale:] You're going to you're flying south for the winter? [Karen:] I am yep. [James Whale:] That's quite nice actually. [Karen:] I'm going to get away from it all. [James Whale:] I wish I was doing that to be honest with you. [Karen:] I think everybody should [LAUGHTER]. That's my attitude you know anybody who who can go go. [James Whale:] Do you know I was in Birmingham yesterday. [Karen:] Was you? [James Whale:] Yeah I was in Birmingham yesterday there's a call believe it or not there's an actual person ringing in. [Karen:] That's right. [James Whale:] Sorry I was in Birmingham and I went you know where the er repertory theatre is? [Karen:] Yep. [James Whale:] Cross the road from Central. [Karen:] Yeah. [James Whale:] And if you go round the back through the I C erm whatever it is the I C A. [Karen:] Yep. [James Whale:] All the canals have been done it's wonderful. [Karen:] Oh so they've told me. Yeah I haven't been behind there lately. [James Whale:] Do you know that Birmingham have more cana has more canals than Venice? [Karen:] Yes that's right. Well I went to Venice er some years ago and I thought it was a dirty hole. [James Whale:] Did you? [Karen:] Oh I did I I mean I didn't do round where the er sightseers went I went the places where you're not supposed to see. [James Whale:] Aha. [Karen:] You know? [James Whale:] You disgu I do that hang on just a minute don't go away. Alan? Yes hello James. You're there are you? Yes yes. Oh good good. Meet meet er meet Jim from er Pickering. Hello Jim [clears throat] are you from Birmingham? [Karen:] Yes. [James Whale:] You from Brum? [Karen:] I am yes. [James Whale:] Oh. I can't do that it feeds back that's a shame isn't it. You're from where? [Karen:] South Yardley. [James Whale:] Oh South Yar you know that do you Alan, South Yardley? I I've passed through there. You have. Is it a nice place? Er well. Okay say no more Alan say no more. [LAUGHTER] No wonder you moved to Pickering. Er yes yes. Hang on just a minute just a minute just a minute Jim. [Karen:] Go on. [James Whale:] Watch him wa I'm talking to the lady next door be careful of him he's he's Stuart that's Stuart yeah very careful of him. [Karen:] Right. [James Whale:] No not you. [Karen:] Oh. [James Whale:] The the young lady next door. [Karen:] Oh I get ya. [James Whale:] You know you know put your phone down. I don't know why but just put it down. Anyway Jim so you're off to Australia? [Karen:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Yeah. Where? [Karen:] Er Melbourne. [James Whale:] Melbourne. [Karen:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Have you been there before? [Karen:] No no. I've got relations in Melbourne,al also in New South Wales. [James Whale:] How much does it cost to go over there? [Karen:] Thousands. [James Whale:] Really? [Karen:] Quantas. [James Whale:] It is Quantas a lot yes. [Karen:] Yep. Yep. Well when you figure if out I mean it's return isn't it? [James Whale:] Yeah what the hell you and me it's nothing is it I mean you know that's it eh? [Karen:] The thing is you only do this probably once in a life time. [James Whale:] You're right. [Karen:] And er you know you you save your money and you take your pick that's that's how I look at it. [James Whale:] Well you have a good time. [Karen:] Thanks. [James Whale:] They said there's some good restaurants in Melbourne. [Karen:] Yep. [James Whale:] I've not been but they say there are. [Karen:] Yes. [James Whale:] All right. Okay Jim. [Karen:] Okay then. [James Whale:] Bye. [Karen:] Ta-ta. [James Whale:] Yes that was good I enjoyed that. Michael. [Danny Savage:] Hi James. [James Whale:] How's the house? [Danny Savage:] Erm warmer. [James Whale:] Is it? [Danny Savage:] Yeah a lot warmer. [James Whale:] Oh good good. [Danny Savage:] . [James Whale:] Yeah? [Danny Savage:] It's lovely to be able to walk around in just your underpants again. [James Whale:] Yeah but it's not so nice for people who look through the windows is it? [Danny Savage:] Oh well no one overlooks. [James Whale:] Don't they? [Danny Savage:] No no no nobody. Not yet anyway. [James Whale:] Oh. [Danny Savage:] Until they get planning. [James Whale:] I hear you're in the roller today. [Danny Savage:] Er how did you know? [James Whale:] Well it's just come up on my screen it says, He's in the roller. [Danny Savage:] Oh well there you go you see I haven't got one I used to have one. [James Whale:] You did? [Danny Savage:] Yeah I didn't like it. [James Whale:] No. [Danny Savage:] I it was an old man's car. [James Whale:] I think it is really isn't it? [Danny Savage:] What do you drive? [James Whale:] I don't, I have a chauffeur. [Danny Savage:] What does he drive? [James Whale:] Erm anything he can get his hands on. [Danny Savage:] Oh really. [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER]. [Danny Savage:] That's Sidney isn't it? [James Whale:] Sidney the chauffeur yes you know Sidney. [Danny Savage:] How is he then? [James Whale:] Yeah he's ve well funnily he's er sit sitting over there I told him off when we came in he was driving too fast. [Danny Savage:] Oh well there you go. Tell me how did you do with the young girl last week? Did you actually er [James Whale:] No. [Danny Savage:] No. [James Whale:] No not at all not at all. It's too early it's to early in the afternoon for me really. [Danny Savage:] Right right did you take her out on the evening? [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] No no no no no no [] no. [Danny Savage:] Well where did you go on the evening anyway? [James Whale:] Where did I go? [Danny Savage:] Yeah. [James Whale:] Where did you go on the evening? [Danny Savage:] Er we went out for dinner actually with some [James Whale:] Did you? [Danny Savage:] friends. [James Whale:] You didn't invite us did you? [Danny Savage:] I was going to do. [James Whale:] Karen and I were waiting here nobody invi we sat in all night and watched T V actually. [Danny Savage:] I could have done but I was a little bit worried about your table manners. [James Whale:] Well I don't have any table manners. [Danny Savage:] Well that's what I mean I was a [James Whale:] You know. [Danny Savage:] little bit worried. [James Whale:] I think tables with manners are ridiculous. [Danny Savage:] Oh absolutely. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Danny Savage:] I just bought a new table this week. [James Whale:] You haven't. [Danny Savage:] Yeah absolutely. [James Whale:] We get you're getting quite a big celebrity on this programme people want to know you know whether they can come round and have a guided tour round the house and stuff like that. [Danny Savage:] It won't be long it will be ready in the not too [James Whale:] It will? [Danny Savage:] distant future. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Danny Savage:] Er as long everybody keeps to plan. I don't have you ever had er extensive renovations to your property? [James Whale:] No I've always been perfectly healthy. [Danny Savage:] You have. Well someone told me you were thinking about it. [James Whale:] Did they? [Danny Savage:] Yes. [James Whale:] No. [Danny Savage:] No? [James Whale:] No. [Danny Savage:] Are you happy with the bags under your eyes? [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] Aha []. Just put your head down there will you just put it down there. [bang] Great. [Danny Savage:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Erm anyway listen you have you got the Beaujolais Nouveau? [Danny Savage:] No I wouldn't drink such rubbish. [James Whale:] Oh I'm just trying to get someone to [Danny Savage:] Okay I actually went to a Beaujolais Nouveau evening the other evening and someone offered me a glass I said, Don't be so bloody insulting who do you think I am. Do you think I was pompous? [James Whale:] It is really. [Danny Savage:] Well [James Whale:] But then tha I would expect nothing less from you. [Danny Savage:] Well absolutely. [James Whale:] You know. Pomposity and you go hand in hand I mean and if not people wouldn't love you as they do. [Danny Savage:] Absolute did you go out last night? [James Whale:] No. I I was in Birmingham. [Danny Savage:] Oh how did it go? [James Whale:] Oh it was good. [Danny Savage:] Good. [James Whale:] yeah it was good. Can you [Danny Savage:] I went out last night. [James Whale:] Can you hang on just a minute got to take a quick break don't go away just a minute. [Noel:] We'll be meeting Jane Goldman who's published a survivor's guide to being thirteen something. Just four years out of her teens herself she's packed a whole lot into her life already. Author journalist mother and wife of Jonathan Ross. If you take pain killers regularly you like thousands of others have probably been worried after hearing what's happening to Michael Jackson. Don't be, we have reassuring news from one the county's experts in pain management. We're off to Scarborough to see the bakery busy preparing edible Pudsey Bears especially for Children in Need only just over a week away now and Jill Pattenden our woman's health expert is in we'll be talking about cervical smear tests and Jill can help you with period problems pregnancy child birth menopause contraception do ring us from eleven. [James Whale:] Ah that's good that's great. [Danny Savage:] That was very interesting. [James Whale:] That's nice. [Danny Savage:] Very interes I [James Whale:] And that [Danny Savage:] Michael Jackson's son you know. [James Whale:] Are you? [Danny Savage:] Yeah I'm a bit too old for him now but er you understand. [James Whale:] But that was er if you didn't hear the mid morning show last week that's what you missed. [Danny Savage:] Oh right. [James Whale:] Cos that was last week's mid morning show trail and I don't I don't see any point in playing what's happening next week. [Danny Savage:] That's right absolutely. [James Whale:] Because you know it may [Danny Savage:] night anyway. [James Whale:] Sorry? [Danny Savage:] I was going to tell you about last night. [James Whale:] Oh yeah go on then. [Danny Savage:] Yeah I went out I go out every Friday with the boys I don't er old habits die hard. [James Whale:] Really? [Danny Savage:] Yeah absolutely. Old friends from many years ago they probably wouldn't call me a friend but I am saying that er very er [James Whale:] How long do you think you can talk for? [Karen:] Oh hours hours. [James Whale:] I wonder if I can go to the er little boy's room at the end of the corridor while you're [Danny Savage:] Well go off you're okay es [James Whale:] Okay [Danny Savage:] especially as there's a monetary incentive. I tell you why don't you invite me on the show or would you feel a bit overawed?... Are you there?... Hello I think he's gone and I assume we're still not on the air. But for those who are still listening I'm still here.... [James Whale:] Ah right oh okay how did you manage? [Danny Savage:] on and off so probably managed very badly. What I was going to say [James Whale:] Oh dear me sorry thanks Mike phew. [Danny Savage:] Why don't you invite me on the show unless you feel you mi you may be overawed in my company? [James Whale:] Well I maybe in a couple of weeks we might but I mean we like to keep it going and then because when it's when you come on the show you'd be such a be such a terrific let down [Danny Savage:] I want a bit of face to face something more interesting this is er getting a little bit tedious. [James Whale:] Is it? [Danny Savage:] Ah. [James Whale:] Okay easily solved. Ah anyway if you want to call us O nine O four six four one six four one O nine O four six four one six four one give us a ring now. [music] Billy Joel this is what we're going to play and er traffic is coming up to let you know the state of play on the roads it's pretty awful out there today. You're listening to B B C Radio York. [music] Soul to soul Billy Joel this is the B B C from North Yorkshire. And Whale is on till two we've got Mary Whitehouse not not the experience the person. Erm we've got bare naked ladies and erm traffic and travel traffic and travel do up traffic and travel and all sorts of stuff er so I want a I want a call from anybody whose never done it before. I want somebody whose sitting there listening to the radio sort of er just relaxed and I I just want you to pick up the phone and ring. Don't have to talk about an just a good chat you know just [sniff] I don't want to I don't want to talk about good people or all about that I don't want to talk about that I want to talk I want to talk to that person out there who will feel now that it is them that I am I am appealing to I am appealing I now. It is them that I am appealing to somebody because of the erm the the th thought transference that I am using is feeling now compelled to pick up the phone O nine O four six four one six four one. Yeah right [sniff].... That's it yes ah I'm connected with you... I am on a cerebral plane connected with you... our brains our interlinked... you reach down you pick up the phone and you ring now. O nine O four six four one six four one pick it up ring now and we'll talk after this. There's the call it's coming in I knew it would work in fact we'll talk straight away now just come straight through to me O nine O four six four one six four one and there's another one there so just pick up the phone and hear as we sit and talk and chew the fat and stuff like that hello? [Rita:] Hello. [James Whale:] Who's that? [Rita:] Marjorie. [James Whale:] Marjorie. [Rita:] I'm just ringing up to say you helped me along with my ironing great. [James Whale:] Oh God Marjorie. [Rita:] the first time really had a good laugh. [James Whale:] Marjorie ironing on a Saturday. [Rita:] . [James Whale:] What what have you got tell me what you've been ironing Marjorie I want to know what what sort of things? [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Tell me come on tell me tell me. [Rita:] Oh just sheets and pillow cases and [James Whale:] No no no. [Rita:] and things like that. [James Whale:] And the and the little unmentionables you don't want to tell me about. [Rita:] They're not so little. [James Whale:] Aren't they? [Rita:] [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Oh dear. Perhaps you could play along and pretend they were you know that would have been good you could pretend that you were sort of erm I I erm er er Christie Brinkley. [Rita:] Mm very good. [James Whale:] You know could you pretend to be Christie Brinkley? [Rita:] Listen I just rang up to say, I don't really want to talk to you. [James Whale:] Oh no but you had to because you felt that sort of there there was that bit between you and me wasn't there? That we just connected on a kind of mental plane. [Rita:] Well it was the bald head business. [LAUGHTER] [James Whale:] Listen there are a lot of women find the bald head syndrome very attractive. [Rita:] Oh yes definitely. [James Whale:] I was born with no hair. I was born wi I never had much hair. In fact I need a hair cut at the moment. [Rita:] Okay then. [James Whale:] Are you going now? [Rita:] Cheerio. [James Whale:] Go and sit down bye bye. [Rita:] Bye. [James Whale:] Bye right are you ready for traffic and travel? [Rachael:] act constructively when [James Whale:] Oh hang on that's the wrong one hand on that's it okay. Er you ready for traffic and tra I cou what I could do here is wonderful being on B B C cos you can go like this and say this is radio two [Rachael:] And yes I can see [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] I can do this I can go radio four [Rachael:] Something should be done. [James Whale:] I do think so something should always be done. Or I can say are you ready for traffic and travel? [speaker010:] Mhm. [James Whale:] Are you sure? You don't sound very sure to me. Who is it on traffic and travel? Hello? Gary whatsit. Gary? Hello. Are you ready just a quick test. [speaker010:] I am I'm ready yes I'm fine. [James Whale:] Could you make sure you do this really quite fine because I'm I'm we're doing an air check on this bit [speaker010:] Okay yes sure. [James Whale:] and it's going for an audition tape for er for radio one okay? [speaker010:] Okay fine yeah. [James Whale:] Could you do that? [speaker010:] Absolutely. [James Whale:] Get right down there and make it er we've got a record playing in a moment make it er make it sort of fairly butch fairly butch okay? [speaker010:] Okay. [James Whale:] Okay and when you do the out er the out thing [speaker010:] Yeah? [James Whale:] How does that go? [speaker010:] Erm it goes Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. [James Whale:] Gary could you do it? Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. [speaker010:] Just like that. [James Whale:] Yeah okay I'll go and put the thing so I could be with you in a minute. Okay er right it's one twenty seven B B C Radio York the station that's first for travel. Oh hang on a minute er don't don't go just yet don't go just yet all right? I'll just I wasn't first for travel. [jingle] [speaker010:] Okay on the er A one area that's the er Bedale area, the earlier north bound lane closures have been lifted and the Leeming area the inside lane of the southbound carriageway's closed at Holby Grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result. In York, travel near the [James Whale:] butch very butch [speaker010:] Knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place and York City are playing Barnet at Bootham Crescent today so traffic will be fairly busy around that area. In Selby a demonstration is taking place this afternoon, it starts at one thirty and will go via Barlby Road and Scott Road and some traffic delays are likely. And finally in the Ripon area weekend roadworks mean the Road will be closed as it passes under the A one bridge and delays are likely. Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. [James Whale:] [LAUGHTER] Do it again I like the bit do your name check at the end go on. [speaker010:] Are you sure? [James Whale:] Yeah go on. [speaker010:] Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. [James Whale:] Yeah. [music] [LAUGHTER] Okay [] What on earth does that mean? Looking at the railways I wouldn't go anywhere near the station though I might oh hang on I mean what does that all mean? Isn't this better for tra wouldn't you take more wouldn't you take more notice of the [LAUGHTER] traffic and travel [] if it was like this [LAUGHTER] every time []? Okay er the thirteen twenty five erm [LAUGHTER] when it looks like they all went early []. It's the thirteen twenty five to Manchester Victoria left at thirteen O five. [music] I need somebody to come in here and explain this. I think it is broken because it says also er Manchester to er I know it's expensive on British Rail but it says one thousand three hundred and five pounds up there. I'd phone the railway station if I were you I would phone it okay. That's okay that's traffic and travel's all right everything's snowing out there. [sighing] Ah right John [] hello. John? Oh hang on you're not on there. You're on er red which is what number was red by the way can we remember what number red was? Okay right John hello... [shouting] John []... Er he connected well he hasn't connected on my well get him get him back get him back we'll connect [shouting] hang up John put your phone down []... What? Put your phone down and we'll sort it out. Right. Okay well that was exciting wasn't I really enjoyed that and what can we do next? [sniff] shall I? Okay this is good you'll enjoy this. That's not me by the way in case you thought I was phoning myself it's not me. And that's disgusting on radio this time of the day heavy breathing. [heavy breathing] Are we all doing this at home? [speaker001:] Emergency which service do you require? [James Whale:] [music] Hello folks this is Dr Rock I hope you're going to join me every Sunday lunch time from twelve till two on B B C Radio York and yet yourself plugged into the cosmic line cos we're going to have lots of fun. We've got a Hollywood spot a comedy spot lots of raving rock and roll lots of incredible yarns so be there be square ooh ee. [music] Rock rock with Dr Rock [music] ooh keep taking the tablets. [music] I love that do you know he's a mean man with a verruca that guy as well. I wonder how many people know that he's a chiropodist sh sh chiropodist great. Can we get him on the phone and talk feet? Cos I have got a verruca the si anyway that's a problem that I have I don't really want to share it with you. John hello. [Alan:] Good afternoon James. [James Whale:] Good afternoon. Did we connect? [Alan:] I do believe we do. [James Whale:] Shall we try I tell you what we could try now we could try connecting with somebody else. You and somebody out there. [Alan:] Ooh yes good idea. [James Whale:] It's quite fun isn't where are you? [Alan:] In Ripon. [James Whale:] Hard luck. [Alan:] [LAUGHTER]. There's far worse places James. [James Whale:] What? [Alan:] There's far worse places. [James Whale:] Can you think of one off the top of your head very quickly? [Alan:] Ooh. [James Whale:] No you see you can't. [Alan:] Consett. [James Whale:] Yeah every time I get me take-away curry from Ripon I park outside the house that's somebody comes and he says [shouting] you can't park there []. [Alan:] Oh yes. [James Whale:] It's not you is it? [Alan:] No it isn't no. [James Whale:] Threaten to smack him next time. [Alan:] Definitely not no not me. [James Whale:] No? There's nowhere to park in Ripon. [Alan:] Not a lot. [James Whale:] Is there? [Alan:] No no there isn't it's dreadful. [James Whale:] I think they should make the whole place a a pedestrian precinct. [Alan:] Good idea. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Alan:] Yes. Not much good for the traders though. [James Whale:] No. [Alan:] Not really. [James Whale:] There's not many people in there spending any money is there? [Alan:] It's absolutely dead. [James Whale:] You get all those those yobbos sitting around the sort of er the you know. [Alan:] Absolutely. [James Whale:] Every time you go through there haven't they got homes to go to? [Alan:] Well. [James Whale:] Why aren't they chained up somewhere? [Alan:] That's right. [James Whale:] Oh that's what I think. I mean listen I'm the first person to talk in in support of body piercing I look I have parts of my body pierced I like it but I don't think standing around the street corners sort of revealing it is a nice thing to do. [Alan:] Especially this weather James. [James Whale:] Exactly. [Alan:] Yes. [James Whale:] Exactly actually on a on a point on body piercing for people who haven't had anything pierced and you should everybody should have if you go and have it done during the cold weather it's better. [Alan:] Oh. [James Whale:] It makes a better cut. [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [] [James Whale:] Did you know that? [Alan:] No I didn't no. [James Whale:] Mm. [Alan:] Not really into it James that. [James Whale:] Has anybody connected with John from Ripon yet? Has any he's in a shop. Have you are you in a shop? [Alan:] I am. [James Whale:] What sort of shop? [Alan:] An auto discount shop. [James Whale:] Oh I know the one yeah. [Alan:] Yep. [James Whale:] That's where people who've got crap cars go and try and get bits to stick them together. Crap is an okay word it's all right crap is not ru rude. I've heard people on er [Alan:] Pretty Close. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Alan:] No er [James Whale:] When you sell those things like that that that bonding tape that you use to put over holes and and they can get into the M O T. [Alan:] Yes glue you know that stuff. [James Whale:] Yeah yeah. [Alan:] Yes. No one of the reasons I was ringing er I have actually er tried the old Beauj'this year. [James Whale:] You've tried what? [Alan:] The Beauj'Nouveau. [James Whale:] Oh I see I thought you were talking about toxophily for a minute. [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] I tried it on Thursday actually at my local and this year it's er very pleasant. [James Whale:] Really? Well somebody else told me that I mean er er the wine connoisseurs say who would drink that stuff you can't drink red wine. [Alan:] I mean a lot a lot of years it's quite iffy but this year it's not too bad at all. [James Whale:] It's not? [Alan:] Not bad at all. [James Whale:] Well I I I'm waiting I I imagined that somebody would be rushing down here with a bottle for me. [Alan:] Well [James Whale:] They might well have done of course they might have refused it's the B B C they say you can't have a bottle [Alan:] That's right yes. [James Whale:] in the studio you can't drink that. [Alan:] Very pleasant. [James Whale:] Very pleasant indeed? [Alan:] Yes. [James Whale:] Yeah yes I was just trying to think of something to to frighten the er the the er the... is he what's white? [Alan:] Pardon? [James Whale:] No what number is white? Oh twenty four isn't it? [Alan:] Oh. [James Whale:] Can you hang on a minute? Er John? [Alan:] Yes? [James Whale:] I'm sorry just hang on yeah hey. [shouting] Rocky baby [] [shouting] Hi there are we on the air? [] [shouting] Yeah we're on the air how you doing? [] Hallelujah Hallelujah. [sigh] [LAUGHTER] Now what to you want to know who recorded Rock Around the Clock first where's Jerry Lee Lewis is tonight? I want to hear some of this heavy breathing man [LAUGHTER]. Oh hallelujah. [heavy breathing] Is that you? I want to know who you got to do that with? [speaker001:] Emergency which service do you require? [James Whale:] Ooh Not her do you like it? Very nice indeed yes. [LAUGHTER] Very very good. [LAUGHTER] Now listen. Yes. Can you come in next Saturday and take this wart off my finger? I certainly can James and I'll bring in my private surgical unit and freeze it off. Would you do that? Because I've had it for four years now and I'm you know a woman touched it the other day and she got really paranoid. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Wow. Er Well no. Could you do that then next Saturday? [speaker001:] Yes. [James Whale:] There's no fee just come in and do it and anybody else who wants will have a wart clinic on the air why don't we do that? Invite people with warts in. Oh only one problem I'm on Radio Merseyside next Saturday. Oh no I might be able to actually no I'll be able to come in James because I'm not on until the evening, I can call in on my way to Merseyside. Of course you can and I'll I'll I'll tell you how you can get home. What are you doing over there? I'm doing a programme with Spencer Lee. Who's that? Oh he's just Hey Do you know I mean I know you're into rock and roll but do do you like some of the Tamla Motown stuff and that sort of thing. Oh course I do. Well I was doing er er er programme in Birmingham yesterday and I I had Jimmy Ruffin on. Lovely. I mean what a character. You know who lives near Birmingham as well Edward Star. I know. Yeah. Yep. I mean these characters nobody realizes that that that in America, Motown didn't look after their stars very well. Indeed not. Just look at Michael Jackson. Well what do you know the guy that sings What Becomes of a Broken Heart I mean nobody can find him. Well I found him I know where he is I've got his personal home phone number. My God you're a thorough lad you should have your own programme James. I know I'm trying for it I'm trying for it. [LAUGHTER] Okay [shouting] be here next week []. Okay killer. Warts and all. Bye. Bye bye. That's Doctor Rock oh good I like him I really am the big fan of his. John? John in Ripon on red red's nine twenty one isn't it? Hello? What number's red I've forgotten?... Red's twenty one okay hello John? He's gone he's probably had to serve somebody. [clears throat] What I could do is play a record but er I can't remember so bear with me for a moment. Oh what's that one Bare Naked Ladies, I'd better not play that just at the moment [LAUGHTER] oh what's this one oh Billy Joel so so I'd better take that out you I'm always tempted to forget what I've actually played and what I'm not going to play. Er we're we're hoping to connect with erm Mary Whitehouse apparently she's engaged. Oh oh I thought she was married that's strange isn't it? Erm so have we got John back? Hello John? [NOISE] Oh please [LAUGHTER] oh what's on radio two again nothing? [clapping] Ah thank you that's good that's good that's enough that's enough don't want any more of that. Right [clears throat] ah can we connect again with a couple of people we we coming up there if anybody out there er is a fan of Mary Whitehouse's as I am give me a call and you know you know who I'm talking to ring now. Oh this is good what [recording giving tel-num] What? [recording giving tel-num] Yeah I know I didn't want to do that just at the moment [recording giving tel-num] Yep hand on hang on er I'm just I'm looking up again close the phone failure what that one there all right oh I was leaving that one open in case somebody rang through don't if they ring through can't they come straight on if I leave it open? Can't they do that? Oh they can in America and the green ones no there's all white there's all white and yellow. Never mind you can play the Bare Naked Lady thingummybobs and er then hopefully we go oh he's in the shop he's had a few customers we'll get back to John a bit later. Er right I need somebody out there who hasn't done this before erm let's see we've been to Ripon, been to Thirsk, erm been over to Scarborough with Dr Rock, North Allerton no I don't like North Allerton well I mean I love North Allerton no no I want to go south I want to go Tadcaster way have we anybody down there? What hang on just a minute sorry can't I can't hear you you'll have to speak up I can't hear a word... Karen lives in Tadcaster oh [sniff] oh another another another place to avoid really isn't it yes yeah. Anybody in Tadcaster who knows where Karen Smith lives and this is not my idea but it's a goody could you ring and tell us what she's got hanging out on the washing line at the moment. Is anybody there? Karen get that answer the call it's one of your neighbours now. Could anybody ring and tell us what she has got on the washing line. What's Karen got hanging on the washing line erm are we up are we up for erm the Bare Naked Ladies there I think we are. What has Karen got on her washing line it's a great game we could use it tell us what's Karen got [singing] on the washing line []? Er it's a new quiz show for radio four, what Karen what yeah whatever whatever okay. Er where did that call go? Have we got in on Karen thank you what? It's a roo it's a news room call is it? Oh okay these are the Bare Naked Ladies you will love this. [music] Oh hang on no that's no good that's The Stripper why have a got The Stripper on oh I see this is the one you want okay Bare Naked Ladies, Be My Yoko Ono. Hang on just a minute [clears throat] right here we go. [music] Mm there's the Bare Naked Ladies er they come from Canada they are a brilliant group I think they're brilliant I don't care I like them and that's called er Be My Yoko Ono I was going to go from the Bare Naked Ladies it was all planned I was going to go and say Mary Whitehouse how are you today and she was there er un unfortunately we've we called this is serious. If you live round the corner from Mary Whitehouse could you pop in and tell her that her phone is off the hook she hasn't replaced the receiver and she she's quite an elderly lady and I would would be terribly upset if if she hadn't got her phone back cos she might need it for emergencies or something like that and I am a caring concerned person so could you could you pop round the corner to Mary's house and tell her that she hasn't [clears throat] put her phone on the hook off the hook properly [sniff] could you do that?... Don't all shout at once but just could somebody go and do it right okay. Er now did we get John back or we've forgotten John now because he's in a shop serving customers in Ripon and er great take away Indian there very very good take away Indian and they did ask me this would you please play this so hang on. [music] [speaker004:] Frisby. [Karen:] Henry. [speaker004:] Where are we going then? [Karen:] Richmond Henry we're heading north on a special mission for Children in Need. [speaker004:] Right ho Richmond it is but where is Richmond? [Karen:] Well head north and then we'll ask. [music] [speaker004:] This is bizarre. [Karen:] You yes you over there in the yashmak where is Richmond. [speaker004:] I beg your pardon. [Karen:] He says up the A one left at Catterick. [music] Quel surprise. [speaker004:] You yes you over there with the accordion we've got a mission, Children in Need programmed broadcasts celebrities to meet Paul Ayre Richmond. [Karen:] No sorry can't make you out. [music] There's blues football actors and bagpipes all for Children in Need in Richmond on Friday twenty sixth November but we've got to get there first Henry. [speaker004:] Try down these steps. [Karen:] . [speaker004:] Oh that sounds a bit painful. [Karen:] You yes you on the spit where is Richmond. Oh do speak up I can't hear you. [speaker004:] I am sorry your reply is not clear enough I'm going to have to shoot you it's for Children in Need [bang]... [James Whale:] Next week's morning story on B B C Radio York is... dunno really I shall have to think about that have to think about that. Er now we we're trying very hard I haven't I haven't managed at this particular moment to er to contact with Mary Whitehouse we erm we haven't we haven't we will try and er [LAUGHTER] in it'll [] it'll probably happen you never know. Now anybody who er who would like to see more sex on television, better give us a ring now I suppose O nine O four six four six four one if you er if you think the er Buddha of Suburbia which is erm has really upset Mary quite considerably. If you saw it over the weekend I mean there was I think it was group sex er it was it wa was gay sex and it was all going on I mean it was all I thought it was the most exciting thing I have seen for a long time to be quite honest. O nine O four six four one six four one. [music] These are the Saw Doctors. [music] Ah lovely I saw saw them live a couple of times they appeared on T V shows as well. Those are the Saw Doctors interesting this about the Saw Doctors is one of them won the lottery in Ireland I don't they have a lottery we're go when are we going to get a national lottery that's what I want to know when are we going to get it a national next year we're going to get a national lottery that's right and one of the Saw Doctors won the national lottery and he won three quarters of a million pounds er and they haven't made much money the Saw Doctors but he won three quarters of a million pounds so that haven't worked for quite some time but they are back on the scene as I speak and er they really if if they er come to York they're certainly worth seeing. They're really brilliant very very good live and that was called er er, That's What She Said Last Night. Isn't it always the way. Now just having a little look in the paper here today and er well oh the Mary Whitehouse saga continues by the way we are absolutely determined to get her on before the end of the show we've got ten minutes left. If anybody has seen her or knows her whereabouts could you please contact B B C Radio York immediately all right? Er B T now have er are sending a tone down her phone a tone down the phone and we're hoping that might happen otherwise we're going to try and send somebody round. Have we tried to sending somebody round? She actually I have to be I've been to her house and she lives in the middle of nowhere I won't tell you where, she lives in the middle of nowhere in fact I drove past it three times before we found it. Now Britain is heading for a pre-Christmas Sunday shopping bonanza believe it or not now you heard it first here on this programme that I I predict that there will be completely deregulated Sunday trading before much long What? Through the red light again [LAUGHTER] what are you [] doing? You no discipline? [Karen:] Shall we call Alan Turner? [James Whale:] Alan Turner? [Karen:] Yeah. [James Whale:] I haven't got his number have you got it? [Karen:] No I thought you had your book with you this week. [James Whale:] Erm but yeah but that's one of er oh pass me pass me the thing I don't actually when I think about it it's getting nearer the time. Did you see in the papers that any anybody who lives off near Harewood House is it Harewood? [Karen:] They were filming there this week. [James Whale:] Yeah. [Karen:] And we weren't allowed that on. [James Whale:] You weren't? No because they're going to I I think actually it's quite er it's quite wrong you know really it is quite wrong isn't it? [Karen:] What is? [James Whale:] To to to crash a plane into Beckindale. What's the date tomorrow? [Karen:] The twenty first. [James Whale:] Oh that's right yeah okay. Er to crash a... er right let me just read er right er okay. [LAUGHTER] What? [] It's it's quite wrong to er ring oh oh yeah right okay. [Karen:] To crash a plane into Beckindale. [James Whale:] To crash a plane into Beckindale around about the anniversary of Lockerbie it isn't funny at all it's not funny and it's not clever. [Karen:] Well what do people think about it? [James Whale:] Well what what do you mean what do people think they're not out there they've all gone flipping Sunday shopping. Shall we call our dot dot dot his name isn't Alan Turner. [Karen:] Well what's his name? [James Whale:] His name is erm Richard er Thorpe which is [LAUGHTER] why am I looking under T in my book []? [Karen:] You are. [James Whale:] I haven't got it there I haven't got it there haven't got it there. I mean he might be listening if he's listening perhaps er perhaps Richard will ring in thank you. Er right okay. [Karen:] I'm going now. [James Whale:] What's that yellow light on there that shouldn't really be on [sniff] should it that one over there look. [Karen:] That's a telephone line. [James Whale:] Oh all right okay okay [recording ends]

[Nicky Campbell:] [music] Tonight live, the happiness pill, the terrorist godfathers and circuses. Are they right to use domestic cats? Roll up, roll up, it's Central Weekend. [music] [clapping] Good evening, welcome to Central Weekend and to our audience, they come from Ludlow. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] welcome. We start tonight with a big row that's brewing over this little pill. It's new and it's given to people who feel depressed. Your doctor prescribes it as Prozac but it's already earned the nickname the happiness pill, but is it safe? Oliver what's so wonderful about Prozac as an antidepressant? [Oliver James:] Well it doesn't actually make less people depressed that its predecessors, the great thing about it is is that it only only one quarter of the people who take it get side effects. So the old tricyclic antidepressants make you know most people get a lot of side effects. The second this about it, it's certainly not addictive in any way, it's not like the barbiturates Valium and so on. It's er you know it's completely okay to take and stop taking it, and you won't want to have to go on. And the third thing is that about twenty to thirty per cent of people who take it undergo a dramatic transformation in their personality, it seems, so it's claimed in America and there's a lot of evidence that might be true, erm and that is you know a huge difference from er just an ordinary antidepressant. [Sue Jay:] So who's it really for, who's gonna m get the most benefit out of it? [Oliver James:] Well it's it works best with people who r mildly depressed in fact,l less so with very severely depressed people, but that is the great majority of people, one in three women with children under the age of five are depressed, for example, so it's a huge advantage for them to be able to take it and not have side effects. [Sue Jay:] Dr Vernon, is this the way to make depressed people happy? Have the drug companies at last come up with something approaching a m little miracle? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] It's a load o crap. The [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I feel as if I'm in a time war, I really do. Twenty years ago I was on programmes li, was Central Weekend on twenty years ago, I don't, twenty years ago [Sue Jay:] Feels like it [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I was on, sorry? [Sue Jay:] [LAUGHTER] feels like it [] [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Well twenty years ago I was on programmes like this, saying that doctors who said that Valium and the other tranquillizers were perfectly safe were talking rubbish and that there was every possibility that there would be problems found in the future, if we kept prescribing these drugs for vast numbers of people. And now here we are again with yet another wonder miracle drug, which they say has got no side effects and which is wonderful and is gonna make all these people really happy [Oliver James:] No we said a quarter of people who take it get side effects. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Let me tell y er have you seen [Oliver James:] What's it got to do with Valium. What's it got to do with Valium at all? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] It's got a lot to do with Valium because it's being [Oliver James:] What? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] given to very similar people for a start, it's being prescribed in huge quantities no let me finish [Oliver James:] Valium's given for anxiety and neurosis. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] you asked me a question. It's being it is being prescribed t for huge numbers of people, it's being promoted as a very safe drug, it's a very profitable drug, and we already know that it causes a very large number of quite serious side effects. I have in front of me a copy of the data sheet produced by the company which makes it, which was incidentally the same company which made Opran, do you remember Opran which was withdrawn from the market, it's just [Oliver James:] What's this got to do wi it's got nothing to do with Opran. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] got an enormous amount to do with Opran because you don't seem to understand the way the drug companies work. They put a drug on the market and they say that it's wonderful and that the side effects are irrelevant and very slight and that everybody's gonna be very happy and it's a new wonder drug and it'll change the world and [breath] isn't that marvellous. Then a few years later when the problems develop they say, oh god we're terribly sorry, we'll take the drug off the market. Let me [Oliver James:] be six million people in the world are taking this drug saying it's really really helping them and you're telling them it's crap. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I'm d let me just tell you some of the side effects which the company making it admit to. [Oliver James:] Now what do you say to those six million people? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Look no let me just tell you what the [Oliver James:] Mm. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] side effects are. What I would tell them was, these are the side effects, they should be aware of this. [Oliver James:] No there are the side effects are only a quarter of people have those [Dr Vernon Coleman:] The company's, you don't want me to say the side effects do you? [Oliver James:] side effects. Only a quarter of people. Do you accept that fact that it's only a quarter of people? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I no no I don't for a start accept it. [Oliver James:] So you deny all the studies that prove that [Dr Vernon Coleman:] No. [Oliver James:] conclusively? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] And what I'm saying is that [Oliver James:] Do you deny those studies? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] What I'm saying is that y I probably do deny those studies. But what I am saying is that the that the side [Oliver James:] Yeah, yes, no, very, look hold on [Dr Vernon Coleman:] effects would not be known, would not be known for a considerable period of time. [Sue Jay:] Le let me bring in Dr C er Vernon let me bring in Dr Cosmo here, Vernon. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] No l hang on a minute let me [Sue Jay:] No I I I just want to move it around a bit Vernon. [Oliver James:] Nobody's denying [Dr Vernon Coleman:] These are im these are important and we should talk about the side effects that are associated. [Sue Jay:] We will we will we will I have we will. Dr Cosmo. [Dr Cosmo Hallstrom:] Nobody nobody denies that Prozac has side effects. What the it has less side effects than other treatments. What i emerges is depression is a common condition which is under-diagnosed and under-treated. One in eight people who are seriously depressed er end up killing themselves by suicide. About ten people a day kill themselves by suicide, maybe maybe one in a thousand people who take Prozac get bad reactions to it, but that has to be seen in balance, in the balance of a large number of people deriving a lot of benefit and maybe a few people having some bad reactions. [Sue Jay:] Donna, you took it, what happened? [Donna:] Yeah, well let me just say first, I'm an agony aunt, a medical journalist, I've got a psychology degree, I've written health books, and as a punter I took Prozac by accident. I suffered what erm is known from as postnatal depression after I had my second baby. And I fought it for a long time and I wanted to get kick-started back to where I was before, because I felt under a cloud. Well I went and I had a different drug from Prozac, I had something which is actually newer and er [speaker002:] Which one? [Donna:] Zeroxac. [speaker002:] Right. [Donna:] Okay which was fine. But let's let's not kid ourselves audience. These are drugs, these are mind-altering drugs, every drug is a poison and every drug is a poison and every drug is a trade-off. You do not get something for nothing in this world and they know this. And people who have vested interests in drug companies are gonna tell you different. Let me tell you what happened to me. I went on Zeroxac, and there are side effects when you start, while you get used to the dosage okay. In my case I was very drowsy, I got constipated, they don't tell you very much about this, they play it down. Once I took the drug I was okay to a certain extent. Okay now this Prozac's in the same group of substances as the one I took and I was willing to do a slight trade-off here. Okay what happened was, I had no emotional reactions to anything, I wanted to cry at something on T V, I couldn't any more, I couldn't cry. I g well I'll tell you later about what else happened to me [speaker002:] isn't aren't those symptoms of depression rather than actually the drug? [Donna:] Listen let me finish. I went back to my doctor after two months and said well I feel a bit better, can I a few more months. Okay fine, he then gave me, I didn't know, I was on Prozac for a month. Now he s he thought he was giving me the same stuff, I didn't know what I was on, all I knew was I felt twice as bad. I went home and I st I got very very anxious, I started feeling suicidal, I was blubbering at everything on the television, now I could cry but I was crying too much. I went back to my doctor and said, what have you given me? This is not the same drug. Oh yes it is they're medically quite similar. What is it? It was Prozac. [speaker002:] Well y you know,th the evidence is overwhelming that these drugs are actually good for depression, that they lift the symptoms, that they reduce suicidal [Donna:] Fifteen per cent have got suicidal on it, that's too high [speaker002:] I'm sorry fifteen per cent of of depressed people commit suicide, not fifteen per cent of people who take Prozac get suicidal. The evidence is [Donna:] Fifteen per cent, the latest research says [speaker002:] the evidence is just against that you know the evidence is totally contrary to that. [Donna:] No this is not true. [Sue Jay:] Let me ask you Donna why why you carried on taking it? [Donna:] Oh no I came off of it. I I had a month's prescription, I came off of it. I went back on the c [speaker002:] on it. [Donna:] I went off of it, and th and then I was okay after that. [Sue Jay:] How did it make you feel? [speaker002:] I was suicidal, one day I'd been on top of the world [Donna:] Yeah [speaker002:] and I could take on anything then the next day I'd be trying to kill myself. Then why did you take the drug then? [Sue Jay:] Why did you why didn't you stop taking it? [speaker002:] Because you trust your doctor. Because it was making me so bad. doctor prescribed it and we trust the G Ps for. Then why do you go to your G P? I've heard all this tripe about and there were tested on prisoners. In the U S and she can verify that. This was this was exactly what we were saying [Sue Jay:] Why do you go to your G Ps? Okay okay let's let's [speaker002:] What's the matter with you people, don't you listen to the patients any more? [Sue Jay:] Let me talk to a G P down here, Dr Stephen. [Dr Simon Fradd:] I'm concerned because there have been accusations by Mix M Mr, he's actually erased from the register. He's not a prac [Dr Vernon Coleman:] No I'm not erased from the register at all, that's a lie. [Dr Simon Fradd:] He's not a practising er physician [Dr Vernon Coleman:] That is a lie actually I think we ought to get this straight [Sue Jay:] Okay listen before we go on [Dr Simon Fradd:] medical register therefore you can't call yourself Doctor. [Sue Jay:] Now listen we've got two conversations going at once here, why are you called Doctor, Vernon? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I've got a doctorate of science and I've got a medical degree from Birmingham University. [Dr Simon Fradd:] But you're not on the medical register. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] No I'm not on the medical register for a very simple reason which I'm happy to explain to [Dr Simon Fradd:] I'm very concerned that he made the accusation that the drug companies simply put these drugs on the market. Now Prozac is one of the highest used drugs in the States. And the States are second to none in drug testing. The Food and Drugs Administration really are absolutely . Now you're always making a balance in developing drugs and I have nothing to do with the drug industry, I'm a G P, you have a balance between trying to move things forward to get people better and on the other hand making sure that you're not going to do them any great harm. Any new drug in Britain is, every year the G P who's prescribing that for you gets a letter from a centre down in Southampton to ask if there've been any adverse reactions. So we monitor as carefully as we can. Yes there are [Graeme Wilson:] The Food and Drug Administration the Food and Drug Administration condones tampering of scientific data in the pre-release trials by, we have the documentation on that, which has been a obtained under the Freedom o of Information Act. [Sue Jay:] Yes. [Graeme Wilson:] It condones it. They they w s they withheld and suppressed evidence of suicides occurring during the pre-release trials. [Sue Jay:] Yes Gr this is Gr just let me introduce you to Graeme. You are with the Citizen's Commission on Human Rights. Now what [Graeme Wilson:] That's right. [Sue Jay:] is it that you have got so strongly against this drug? [Graeme Wilson:] What we have so strongly on this is that there are now over twenty eight thousand [Sue Jay:] Mm. [Graeme Wilson:] adverse reaction reports on the drug. [Sue Jay:] Mm. Yeah [Graeme Wilson:] and that's that's ten times higher th that's higher [Sue Jay:] Yeah [Graeme Wilson:] than any other drug in history. It's ten times higher than the r reactions on Halcyon, of those reactions thirteen hundred, there were thirteen hundred relate to deaths of the users, and that's just too high a price to pay. [Sue Jay:] So is it is it too no no we've got to come back here, is this too high a price to pay? [speaker002:] Yeah I feel very sorry for the people who've had bad reactions from Prozac about [Graeme Wilson:] They've died there's thirteen hundred [speaker002:] hang on a second [Sue Jay:] Let him answer. [shouting] Let him answer. [] [speaker002:] I feel very sorry for the people living who are here [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Can I just say [Sue Jay:] Vernon [speaker002:] adverse reactions. Th about a quarter of people do unfortunately and they have to stop taking it. Er c coming to this point, there is abundant evidence that er say two thousand for example, two thousand Prozac takers were compared with er two thousand takers of the old tricyclics compared with people on a placebo, and I'm sorry there is no increased probability of committing suicide. People who are depressed generally are prone to committing suicide. They're also co prone to commit violence. I wasn't. [Sue Jay:] No listen listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to someone here who's probably er only here because you're on Prozac, aren't you? [Peter:] That's right yes. [Sue Jay:] Peter, you you take Prozac? [Peter:] I take Prozac. [Sue Jay:] Why? [Peter:] Erm completely disabling anxiety and depression that is moderate but persistent. And it needed something to break that cycle. And Prozac did the trick for me, erm it won't work for everybody, it's not a happiness pill, it just restores you to to some sort of normality. [Sue Jay:] You you've been taking it for how long? [Peter:] I've been taking it continuously for two years, and I want to stress that I've been taking eighty milligrams a day, [Sue Jay:] That's a lot. [Peter:] That was the dose,a and I want to stress also that I didn't start off at eighty milligrams, I started off at two and half which I think is important and [Sue Jay:] Any side effects? [Peter:] There was there was no side effects. Erm ma [Sue Jay:] What ma what ma what difference has it made to your life Peter? [Peter:] Comp completely, I mean I'm sat here in a live television studio with a girlfriend on my hand, I was housebound, erm just no interest in my hobbies, no energy, erm [Donna:] Peter [Sue Jay:] Well I'm glad you're here. Now listen, listen Donna, Donna, Donna wait a minute, Donna listen. This is obviously of real help to a lot of people even if it doesn't help everybody. You can't throw the baby out with the bath water, [Donna:] No. [Sue Jay:] you can't frighten people off it, when it is being of real help to people like Peter. [Donna:] No it's now he was severely depressed. It's interesting cos you said it helps people with mild depression. [speaker002:] No, no. [Sue Jay:] No he didn't actually [Oliver James:] and persistent [Sue Jay:] Right persistent and moderate depression. Okay bu yes now I'm not arguing that for some depressed people it's there's always side effects of some kind, okay, Peter, I wanted to ask you a very personal question. [Oliver James:] Well he just told you he didn't have any side effects. Are you denying this man's right to tell you what he believes is true? [Donna:] Now wait a minute. Have you ever been on Proz have you ever been on Prozac Oliver? [Oliver James:] No. [Donna:] Alright. Well you won't be able to orgasm on it, okay? sexuality [Oliver James:] But I'm asking you to address his point. You've just told this man [speaker002:] [clapping] [Oliver James:] You've just told this man that he his experience is invalid. you said to him that there's no [Donna:] No I didn't. I [Oliver James:] such thing as a pill without side effects, he just said he had no side effects. [speaker002:] To to introduce to introduce one or two patients who ar who are happy with the drug is is irrelevant as you should know [Donna:] Exactly. [speaker002:] because people took thalidomide and were very happy with it, people took Opran and were very happy with it, people took Valium and were very happy with it. take penicillin and die of it because they have an allergic reaction. Even more people have died of overdoses of aspirin than any other drug in the world. We didn't ban those. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Let let me tell you about the damned side effects of this drug, because people are entitled to know what they. [Sue Jay:] Listen I've got, Vernon I I've got some people who have had the side effects. Let me interview them because there's nothing like a human story [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Okay, bye, okay, I'll go home [Sue Jay:] a personal face of this whole thing, I I ought to say that we did ask the drug company to send some along or er and they said no er but [speaker002:] Strange [Sue Jay:] but they but they we have got a man here who is the first in this country, Mr to sue them. Erm you took Prozac [speaker002:] That's correct. [Sue Jay:] erm, what kind of person were you before, apart from a bit depressed? [speaker002:] person I wouldn't bother anybody, and it changed my entire personality. [Sue Jay:] It changed it so much that you co committed an offence that ended you up in [speaker002:] in prison. [Sue Jay:] in prison for, well you got a three year sentence [speaker002:] prison sentence [Sue Jay:] but you didn't serve it all. Erm you took a gun to your girlfriend's house, [speaker002:] Yes. [Sue Jay:] you handcuffed her son to his bed [speaker002:] bed [Sue Jay:] you were very violent in your behaviour? [speaker002:] Where did you get the gun from? Say again. Where did you get the gun from? I collect weapons. [Sue Jay:] Why, why do you put that down to Prozac? [speaker002:] Because it was something that was totally out of character. My general behaviour changed completely after I was given Prozac. I was taken into the, my wife died in January of nineteen eighty nine, I was taken into the local psychiatric hospital at in the December of nineteen eighty nine and I was told I was gonna be given an experimental drug, I was told nothing about it or any anything to do with any of the side effects, I I was in th I was on Prozac for about four days, I suffered horrendous side effects, shaking and one thing and another. Why didn't you refuse it? You didn't have to take it. Well as far as I was concerned, I was doing what a doctor told me. These bunch of clowns pick your gun up and go and shoot. [Sue Jay:] You're talking from a point of view of where? [speaker002:] Well I work in this field and you can refuse that that medication unless you're under You don't expect a doctor to give you drugs that are gonna drive you mad. If you're an informal patient you can refuse that medication. psychiatric hospitals, there must have been something wrong with you. It's hard enough to get into if you're crazy. [Sue Jay:] Yes, go on. [speaker002:] One of things on this drug is that we have many cases documented on this where people don't realize the incredible grotesque feelings they have of mutilating themselves et cetera are actually connected to the drug. And it's only when they see publicity of the drug that they actually realize I tried to kill myself twice in the space of ten days, I suffered horrendous hallucinations people do you know. government initiative to reduce the incidence of suicide by er is it er five per cent over the next years because so many [Sue Jay:] Are you saying there's no connection between the drug [speaker002:] depressed people do kill themselves. That's just rubbish. It is. and one of the key ways of stopping people killing themselves would be to change from the old antidepressants onto the more modern safer ones which A are easier to take, less likely to make you kill yourself, and er [Sue Jay:] Let let me introduce you to a nurse, a nurse called Nicola. Nicola Nicola doesn't want to be identified. Er Nicola had a baby, she suffered from postnatal depression and er can I ask for a bit of hush there please, Nicola suffered from postnatal depression and she took Prozac. Nicola, you suffered some of the side effects that we've been hearing about tonight, and then things got really bad. How bad did they get? [Nicky Campbell:] I was only on the drug for seven days and by the seventh day, I'd suddenly turned into some sort of maniac. I became incredibly vi er I had violent feelings erm, I wanted to go out on the street and rampage. If I'd had a gun I would have gone out and shoo shot out the whole neighbourhood. Erm and really the only way I thought that I could prevent myself from doing anything like that was to kill myself in a very violent way because I [Sue Jay:] N [Nicky Campbell:] was so incensed, the way I felt. [Sue Jay:] Nicola I I mean I I totally take your story on board but you are a nurse [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah. [Sue Jay:] and yo yo you understand about refusing medication. [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah. [Sue Jay:] Why did you carry on taking it? [Nicky Campbell:] Erm, I hadn't actually felt that violent, I'd been having extremes of emotion all week erm, very high, very low, very very fearful, panic attacks which I'd never had before in my life. [Sue Jay:] Did you associate with Prozac? [Nicky Campbell:] I did yes. And I finally went back to my G P on the seventh day which was a Saturday in the morning, and he told me to carry on taking the drug. And within a few hours of taking it, that's when this happened to me. When I just felt that I was on the absolute fringe of going berserk. And I could have killed anybody. It wouldn't have mattered who, it could've been family, friends, neighbourhood, anybody. If I'd had a gun I would have done it. [Sue Jay:] Listen, I can't go further into your story now, thank goodness it all ended happily and you got some [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah. [Sue Jay:] instant help. Isn't this is an extraordinary situation,n here is a nurse, a a you know a a kind caring woman, she takes a drug and yet she must be of all people the one person to say, I'm having a side effect. [Dr Simon Fradd:] Yes that's true. [Sue Jay:] And yet she still believes her doctor. Just like all of us do, still trusts him, [Dr Simon Fradd:] Well I [Sue Jay:] still takes it. [Dr Simon Fradd:] I really do think that one of the things that I'm unhappy about this evening is that people are concerned that our profession isn't caring. I take on a board all the comments that are made here, I I think they do need investigation. What one doesn't know is what's due to the disease and what's due to the drug. What I do know is that there are thousands and thousands of people out there for whom life is intolerable, roughly ten a day actually succeed in killing themselves, how many more have a go we don't know. [Donna:] Sue, can I, I need to ask him a question. A very important question. Is it that G Ps don't read the literature that comes with the drugs. I wanna know why G Ps don't inform their patients about what to expect [Dr Simon Fradd:] Well [Donna:] because I'll tell you what, I came off cold turkey, and I had the worst three days of my whole life. I had all my symptoms condensed into a horrendous anxiety, my head [Dr Simon Fradd:] mm, mm [Donna:] was spinning, I thought I was gonna jump off the roof, I rang my G P and said, you never told me I had to decrease this dose, hang on just get through the weekend, he never told me what to expect,an I I feel like suing him. [Dr Simon Fradd:] We, we [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] I I've just been told I've just been told that our entire switchboard is totally lit up. One person has had bad side effects, the rest of our callers think it's wonderful. [Dr Simon Fradd:] But can I just answer that because hopefully we do we do try to listen and we try to give you what information you're capable of taking at the time. If you're in a very distressed state you can't take. Fortunately now, the drugs have to be packaged with an information leaflet so that you keep looking at it again and again and again. [Sue Jay:] Okay,gentle gentleman at the back there, he's got his hand up. [Donna:] to read it. [Sue Jay:] Hang on Donna. [speaker002:] Yeah, this drug could've been developed and refined and er gone into a lot further, but they didn't. and the reason why they didn't is because the losses at the moment are acceptable. Profitability, that's what it's all down to. [clapping] [Sue Jay:] Before before I come back to you Cosmo, before I come back to you [speaker002:] I want to talk to Nicola. You wanted to say something Nicola. [Nicky Campbell:] Yes I just wanted to say that, can I just say that within about three days of coming off the drug, all my symptoms of feeling violent, murderous, suicidal completely disappeared and they've never come back since, and all I've had since then is a dose of vitamin B six every day. [Sue Jay:] So th you are in no doubt that that's was [Nicky Campbell:] No doubt at all. [speaker002:] Wh w when testing a new drug, you're trading off th th the the level of testing you can do, it takes about a hundred millions pounds to produce a new drug, it takes about ten years from test tube to getting a licence. So you can test it more thoroughly but in that case, A you put the costs up and B it takes longer before it gets actually, before patients get the benefits of it. So the big argument at present about th for example in other medications is that people are being treatment. [Sue Jay:] Okay Vernon. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] The the the quality of drug company testing is abysmal. Much of the e well hang on a moment. Hang on a [speaker002:] It fulfils regulations both the F D A you know. [Sue Jay:] Never mind the regulations is it good enough? [Dr Vernon Coleman:] The the quality of testing by drug companies is appalling. One in six patients in hospital in Britain are there because they've been made ill by doctors. One in six. That's that is a frightening statistic. Forty per cent of the people who take drugs suffer serious, sometimes lethal side effects. There are several quite simple explanations for this [Dr Simon Fradd:] That's why you need newer and safer drugs. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Would you mind shutting up for a minute, [Dr Simon Fradd:] No [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I'm fed up of [Sue Jay:] Okay [Dr Vernon Coleman:] these bloody apologies for drug companies, have you ever worked for a drug company? [Dr Simon Fradd:] I d [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Have you ever received money from a drug company? [Dr Simon Fradd:] Yes of course I have. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] You have? What do you mean yes of course I have, you have received money from a drug company. [Dr Simon Fradd:] Yes I know about the drug industry. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] How much? [Sue Jay:] He knows about [Dr Simon Fradd:] I know about the drug industry, I do clinical trials, I do research for them. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] You d so you work for drug companies? [Dr Simon Fradd:] Yes of course I do. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] So what the fucking hell are you doing here apologizing for apologizing for a drug. [Sue Jay:] Completely uncalled for Vernon, completely uncalled for. [speaker002:] You take it. Take it and come back here and let's see what you're like. And you take it. As well. I don't have to. You take the drug and see how you are. I have taken eight. You've taken it? That's fine. I've taken eight antidepressants over the last ten years, Prozac hasn't been one of them I must admit. [Sue Jay:] Now listen, this is an interesting point, you've taken eight, and Cosmo people, people, and obviously she's had a lot of bad experiences we can't go into now, but people, people don't trust the drug companies because of all this long history and experiences. [speaker002:] effect. Here we have someone shouting at us about the bad effects of the Prozac, they then tell us that haven't taken them. Now I've seen a lot of people who complain about taking drugs and the side effects they get, when you analyze it, you first of all find they haven't taken it, or they've taken five other drugs at the same time [Sue Jay:] Now listen answer the question I asked you, answer the question I asked you, she has taken a lot of drugs in the past, not Prozac. [speaker002:] Yes. [Sue Jay:] But because of the bad experiences, when the drug companies have said for years, trust us, we've researched it, we've developed it, you know it's it passed the F D A rules, and then there's Atavan and Valium and all the things that we had Halcyon and there's a horror story at the end of the day. And now you have Prozac, why should we believe them this time? [speaker002:] Well I think the drug industry and I don't represent them, but I think the drug industry [Dr Vernon Coleman:] But you got money from them. [speaker002:] Well you know [Dr Vernon Coleman:] Have you have you done any work for this company? [Sue Jay:] Vernon, Vernon I want the answer to this one. [speaker002:] No I've never done any work for. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] You've never done any work on this particular product? [Sue Jay:] Why should we trust them this time? [speaker002:] I think thirty years down the line, Valium was developed in nineteen sixty one. Now we've had all the bad news. W w we're still having bad news but now we [Sue Jay:] That's right [speaker002:] learnt, we hope that we learn as we go along and that the same mistakes don't get made again. But a twenty years ago, twenty years ago falsify the testing results, I have that documentation This here, this here is thirteen hundred, the list is thirteen hundred deaths, thirteen hundred deaths due to Prozac. We're sitting in this room and we're hearing a lot of people who've had bad experiences with Prozac and other drugs. Twenty five per cent of people who take the drug have bad effects. That's a lot The drug companies say that. [clapping] [Dr Vernon Coleman:] I'm terribly sorry madam, I'm terribly sorry madam, you might die if you take this drug Nobody's who's died has ever been depressed after they've taken [Sue Jay:] Listen Vernon, Vernon [speaker002:] has ever been killed by Prozac, and you know it Vernon. [Dr Vernon Coleman:] The the drug company says [Sue Jay:] Okay I'm gonna go back [speaker002:] relationship between [Sue Jay:] Okay Dr, Dr. Hush [Dr Simon Fradd:] I'm very very concerned that we don't the. The th there may be an argument, and I don't know the details of what's being said here, and I certainly would not defend any sort of the highest level of enquiry. But if one sixth of patients are in hospital as a result of what we've done wrong, five sixths are there because we haven't managed to stop them being there. So don't let's forget that. Don't let's just say drugs are bad, because for every one that has a bad time, and some people have a terrible time, you say some people die, I accept that. [Sue Jay:] Okay. [Dr Simon Fradd:] But a lot of people come out feeling a hell of a lot better. [Sue Jay:] Okay, I would like to thank everybody on this item who has taken part in the responsible bits of the debate. Thank you all very much. [speaker002:] [clapping]

[Nicky Campbell:] [music] Welcome back. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] The body count in that most British of places a fish shop, was nine dead. By tonight the terrorists' toll was seventeen, but the city was over the water, Belfast, and even the politicians were running out of words to express their horror. Today the British and Irish Prime Ministers debated whether to talk to the terrorists. Should we, or should they just be rounded up and locked up? John Taylor, Ulster Unionist MP for Strangford. In nineteen seventy two the I R A attempted to assassinate you and you were a very very lucky man,yo your body was was absolutely riddled with bullets. Erm th thank god you're here today. [John Taylor:] Yeah. [Nicky Campbell:] Er what's the atmosphere like in Belfast, what's it been like this week? [John Taylor:] Well the atmosphere is very bad indeed in Belfast because er we had this before of course twenty years ago we had various bad situations but it hasn't been so bad in recent years, but this last fortnight, er we've had U V F killings, then we had this terrible bomb by the I R A killing the protestants in the Shankhill Road. The U V F which is now a much larger terrorist organization has responded by killing catholics and there's tremendous fear now in both communities, there used to be just fear in the protestant communities, they were being attacked by the I R A, but now as the Cardinal has said there's very big fear in the catholic community as well. [Nicky Campbell:] There's re the tension really has [John Taylor:] There's what I have called a parity of fear, [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah. [John Taylor:] in both communities now and this is creating tension. [Nicky Campbell:] So what's the way ahead with dealing with the terrorists? Now. [John Taylor:] Well er y it's you cannot solve it by a security policy alone. Yo first of all you must distinguish Northern Ireland from other ar territories in the world where there has been terrorism. Like in South Africa or like in Cyprus or Kenya. In those areas, the people didn't have votes. Palestine they didn't have votes. P L O. [Nicky Campbell:] We'll come to this but briefly t [John Taylor:] In Northern Ireland, we have democracy and [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah [John Taylor:] ninety per cent of the people vote against the terrorists, [Nicky Campbell:] Sure [John Taylor:] they don't want anything to do with it. [Nicky Campbell:] So what's the way ahead against the terrorists? [John Taylor:] The way ahead is to intern the terrorists from [Nicky Campbell:] Wi [John Taylor:] both communities [Nicky Campbell:] without trial? [John Taylor:] Oh yes, without trial, from both communities and secondly alongside it and in parallel introduce a new political initiative in Northern Ireland, to get the catholics and protestants involved in the administration of their own country where they live. [Nicky Campbell:] And why by interning terrorists, you would include Gerry Addams for example? [John Taylor:] Definitely yes. [speaker002:] How many years [Nicky Campbell:] One second I'll come to you, we've got more talking to do before I do come to you. Clare Short look at that picture there. We've got Gerry Addams who er wanted earlier in the week if we were to believe what seemed now like to be sitting at a table discussing peace, there he is carrying a bomber's coffin. How can that man ever be taken seriously, should he not be locked up? [Clare Short:] I think to talk like that is to just to want to let it go on and on and on. W we tried internment before, it caused a massive escalation of violence cos you never, you get families are angry, it escalates the numbers who are committed to terrorism, last time it was just the Republicans, if we did it on both sides it would just escalate terrorism. It would be a disaster. What we also have is the British and Irish government, John Major and Gerry Addams all talking seriously about a possible peace initiative. [Nicky Campbell:] How can he be taken seriously when he's doing that? [Clare Short:] I'm not interested whether you take him seriously or not. I am interested whether there's a possibility of bringing an end to the violence in Northern Ireland. And all serious people who regret all the people who've died and been maimed should be interested in that. And just playing games with that picture takes us nowhere. Everyone can den denounce each other and we can go on forever [Nicky Campbell:] It's not games. [Clare Short:] and it'll never get better. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] It's not games. It is a reality. He, that is a photo opportunity that Gerry Addams took and it was on the front page of everybody's newspaper. [Clare Short:] Everybody in the country knows that. [Nicky Campbell:] John Taylor. [John Taylor:] Well what I think what Clare forgets, I know Clare comes from a a republican background, in South Armagh, and she s probably sees it only from that point of view. [Clare Short:] I come from Birmingham actually. [John Taylor:] I know but your family are from that [Clare Short:] I come from here. [John Taylor:] Yeah but I'm thinking of your background, where your roots are. You've got to s remember there are two sets of terrorists in Northern Ireland now. Not just republican, we have loyalists as well and the loyalists have the potential for being the bigger and more effective of the two, and if we let the I R A to continue without interning them, you are going to have the situation deteriorating in the way which you don't want and I don't want, and you're going to end up as the chief constable of the R U C said a few weeks ago with Dublin being bombed. That is what's ahead of us and we've got to warn people that that is ahead and try and take action now before it gets out of control. [Clare Short:] And that's why the Unionist parties have a duty to be more interested in this possible peace. Lots of the people who vote for you have been hurt and maimed and injured. You are all saying we're not interested, we're not interested. [John Taylor:] We are interested. [Clare Short:] Maybe this could take us somewhere, and your people would and you you yourself were nearly killed. [John Taylor:] Yes I never [Clare Short:] Surely we should try and see [John Taylor:] I don't know what you're talking about,we of course we're interested in peace, we want peace. We [Clare Short:] No you're not you denounce it all the time. [John Taylor:] had talks, round table talks at Stormant this year and John Major hardly ever appeared, he stayed in Strasbourg. He's he puts more into talking with the I R A and Sinn Fein than he does with the Unionist community who at the end of the day are the majority in Northern Ireland. [Nicky Campbell:] Let's go back to the terrorists just er just just briefly, Clare whatever you say, that's a p potent picture and it was a deliberate photo opportunity. What was he doing, what's his thinking there? You're an acknowledged expert on the I R A Tim Pat. [Tim Pat:] Well I think even if you don't do it as one christian or as one human being to another, even if you do it in the view of a general who sleeps with the enemy general's picture over his bed and you've gotta try and think into this man's mind, remember he's from West Belfast, he's from the area that this man was killed in. He'd already made a very courageous statement condemning him [John Taylor:] No he didn't condemn him. [Tim Pat:] at the time. [John Taylor:] He didn't condemn it. [Tim Pat:] I didn't interrupt you now [John Taylor:] Yes. [Tim Pat:] I know your notions of democracy are based on your former Stormant but don't interrupt me. [John Taylor:] But I'm correcting you, yeah, [clears throat] yeah no he didn't condemn it he did not condemn it. [clapping] I don't like misrepresenting what he's saying. [Tim Pat:] He he he condemned that man [John Taylor:] No he didn't. [Tim Pat:] who is dead, he condemned another of his followers who was lying badly injured in hospital, like this unfortunate man here who was blinded, and I can understand why Clare feels badly about this tabloid television, it's not a time for exciting, you know I everybody er is appalled by any bereavement or misery. Let me finish. He did all that he did all that at the same time if he is go [Nicky Campbell:] you can't make those accusations when he stepped beneath the coffin for two minutes to deliberately have his photograph taken. [Tim Pat:] Th the fact of the matter is that at the next general election, the Stormant or the Westminster election, Gerry Addams will win that seat. Not because he carried that coffin but because the people on his side are ravaged, their nerve ends are torn raw, and if he d backed off and didn't support a dead fellow Irishman he'd be dead politically [Nicky Campbell:] Is Gerry Addams [Tim Pat:] and the peace initiative would be dead, and that's what we should be talking about not making cheap debating [Nicky Campbell:] Is Gerry Addams a man of peace? [Tim Pat:] He is, he certainly is yes. [John Taylor:] Oh. [Nicky Campbell:] John Taylor. [John Taylor:] Gerry Addams is a man who supports the murder campaign by the I R A terrorists, always defends it and he didn't condemn the killing of the protestants on the Shankhill Road by that I R A man, he carried that I R A man's body at the funeral, what he said was it was unfortunate that innocent people were killed. That's what he said, that's a different from condemning it. [Tim Pat:] shattered by [John Taylor:] Mm. Shattered. But he didn't condemn it. [Nicky Campbell:] Martin Dillon another expert on the on the on the terror campaign, and also [speaker002:] [cough] [Nicky Campbell:] there's an arm a general army council of the I R A right at the top that's in the yeah? [Martin Dillon:] Well are you asking wh what is Gerry Addams? [Nicky Campbell:] And what's his position in th is he on the I R A council? [Martin Dillon:] L l l let's try to explain for for an audience that's looking at television pictures here and what we're talking about. In Sinn Fein and the I R A there is an umbrella organization and we've gotta be careful legally here. The organization is called the Republican Movement. The Republican Movement has general orders which apply to everyone within that movement. That movement is a mixture of Sinn Fein which is the political dimension to the struggle and the I R A. Now my, I mean I would have to say, I mean very clearly, that they're inseparable. I mean in the sense that their objective is the same, then it's the same organization. Now for me to say that Gerry Addams is a member of the I R A, I'm not gonna to do that. What I will say is that Gerry Addams is a member of the Republican Movement. You can judge for yourself. Is the Republican Movement the I R A, I would have to say logically of course it's the I R A. Would Gerry Addams be like a large company, a director of that of an organization, a large company? You'd have to say of course he's a director of that company. [Nicky Campbell:] Right, right I know what you're saying and you've got to be very very careful. Sir William Ross, you're an MP for East Londonderry. Erm internment is something that you believe in. Now surely if you're gonna intern the leaders and m might they include Gerry Addams and we we could talk about the other side, we could talk about the Loyalist er paramilitaries equally, surely there's just another wave gonna come along because it's a never ending assembly line of terrorists, so what's the point? [Sir William Ross:] Well the reality is of course that Clare has already told us that internment didn't work the last time, it was badly done the last time. It worked on every other occasion when it was tried both th north and south and was used very widely in the republic in the past to behead the terrorist organizations. And that is what we're talking about, we're talking about taking out the two or three hundred really active people, the control and the command structure of the I R A and of the other terrorist organizations and putting them in. [Nicky Campbell:] But then Tim Pat do n other active people not just come along? [Tim Pat:] That's exactly what we heard saying, we're bombing civilians to take out the control and command structure. It wasn't they took three hundred people the last time and now he's talking about three hundred. You'd only just multiply the thing, you'd spill petrol on an already burning flame. [Clare Short:] And the situation's very tense at the moment anyway and it would just [Tim Pat:] But the intern I have to say this, this is I R A. There wouldn't be an I R A only for internment the last time. Apart from the fact they got the wrong ones, as Clare said they s you know they just multiplied all through the place. [speaker002:] That's nonsense, that's nonsense [Tim Pat:] When it was done before in the republic, you wanna quote history, you wanna quote it accurately, it was done with the agreement of a sovereign people. The whole of the people in the republic agreed within their own undivided, this is a divided country, a divided community rather, and such a vote [Nicky Campbell:] Has been succ there has been su there have been successes though haven't there? [Tim Pat:] No such a vote of no confidence has never yet been passed in a west European state. A British government said they were so undemocratic, they took away that, parliament. It hasn't been restored, there's a bloody vacuum. What is needed is a constitutional [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim Pat:] political solution, not internment. [Nicky Campbell:] John Taylor. [John Taylor:] Well, I I still look ahead, and I recognize the loyalist paramilitaries have now the potential to become the major force. And they will be bombing Dublin, and once that starts Dublin will be more anxious to agree with us to have internment in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. And it's just a pity [Clare Short:] Now [John Taylor:] it's just a pity that they're sitting back in their armchairs in Dublin thinking they're immune from the situation that's developing before our eyes. [speaker002:] The chief constable comes from Dublin and the republic in fact spend three and half times as much per capita as is spent by the United Kingdom in trying to restrain terrorism. Yeah, oh yes I agree [Nicky Campbell:] What about all this talk of bombing Dublin, what about all th [speaker002:] explain to you, this is a this is No it's not this is what the chief constable of the R U C, the Dublin man that you've just mentioned said it, he said it. I walked through Dublin in nineteen seventy four in May, the worst single atrocity that has happened was the bombing of Dublin. That's right, that's right Thirty five people who were killed that day and remember that on Yorkshire television it's been established that there were and this is something you gotta over, people like you had got the ear of the Special Branch and murky people in the establishment of the the murky people I R A were let off the leash and with Yeah, yeah that help without it they wouldn't. [Nicky Campbell:] What about these threats of bombing Dublin, the the the loyalist paramilitaries getting the upper hand as John Taylor is saying there, is bombing Dublin a real [speaker002:] Le let's deal [Nicky Campbell:] possibility? Let's deal with that first then you can deal with what you wanna deal with. Is bombing Dublin a real possibility? [Martin Dillon:] Erm of course there's a real possibility. I mean the one thing that has happened in recent times, and I don't like prophecies so, I don't wish to be a part of one, let's be clear about that, I'm doing this as an analyst. Erm the loyalist paramilitaries have become much more sophisticated than they've ever been in their history. Erm I would say that in the past the loyalist paramilitaries, apart from the obvious thing which was easy going out just and killing catholics as they've been doing recently. Erm they've developed along the lines of the provisional I R A, they've developed a sales structure. They're much more sophisticated than they've ever been in the past. They're much more capable probably of conducting a campaign [Nicky Campbell:] They've no political wing like the I R A they do they? [Martin Dillon:] No it it is probably one of the difficulties if it ever comes to to negotiate with them. What I'm actually saying is, they are a very serious threat. Now if I could just come back to one other thing, cos Tim Pat was raising it. Erm internment erm I think is always a very dangerous option, because it presupposes there is no political solution. And really it's up to politicians. I mean the politicians I think have failed the people of Northern Ireland. On both sides of the water. It was never on the agenda in Britain which I think was one of the major problems in the early days. I think the army really was the fall guy. I mean the army was left to do a job which politicians should have done. And the army opted for internment. And really it has to be said and has to be said historically that I mean the army in a way was left with a job which politicians should have sorted out before it got to that stage. [Nicky Campbell:] We're gonna to speak to some army people Martin. We're gonna have to [Martin Dillon:] And that is als, I'm just saying that it's a very dangerous [Nicky Campbell:] Right. [Martin Dillon:] thing today to suggest that there is a security solution. It presupposes that the intelligence people have the information now, hold on the [speaker002:] Well come on, they know who they are, they know who they are, they must do [Martin Dillon:] I R A are bombing this country unfortunately, they've no right to bomb it. And the fact is I mean nobody seems to be able to stop them. And it goes on. Now if the intelligence community is that good, let's be very clear about it, it would be easy, and to sa suggest that internment might make it easier, I think is wrong. Who's going to take charge of internment? The R U C or the army? [Nicky Campbell:] Let's speak to erm we talked about the soldiers there, let's speak to some soldiers. First of all erm a a man who served over there. Er Ray, you were a victim of the I R A, can you tell me what happened? [Ray:] Yes, erm I was a victim from er an I R A bomb. Erm we were on patrol, just a normal patrol in er in Belfast and unfortunately I lost my sight and two very good friends of mine were killed, and another was er blinded in one eye and severe injuries to his leg. [Nicky Campbell:] What was your patrol doing? [Ray:] Just normal patrols, looking after the people of Belfast. And of course, when this all happened, and I'm listening to what people are saying tonight, it's it's sort of making me feel a bit sick what they're saying. [Nicky Campbell:] Why is that? [Ray:] One supports that I lay in the street looking and waiting for a a man they mention tonight and that man is a well known killer of British soldiers. And I'm now asked [Nicky Campbell:] Which man? [Ray:] I'm now asked to respect him. And I'm sorry, I cannot respect a man [Nicky Campbell:] The man who's name has been mentioned tonight? [Ray:] Tonight. I cannot say that anybody can respect a man in this country and to run for their country as a well known I R A supporter. And he's up there on one of your pictures. [Nicky Campbell:] Mhm. [Ray:] And I cannot [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] What would then, what would be your solution as a soldier who served over there, a victim of terrorism, what would your solution be? [Ray:] I see many ways of a solution but there is never positive solution, but I feel that they are putting units into this country, like they can bomb anywhere they like in this country. [Nicky Campbell:] There's been a car bomb in London tonight as well. [Ray:] I didn't here that. [Nicky Campbell:] Mm. [Ray:] I'm very sorry if people got injured. You're getting innocent people, men and women killed, children killed and we're expected to accept this. I feel they're putting units into this country, why not us put a unit into their country, not to kill their women and children, but to kill the people who's actually doing it, whether they be I R A, U D A, knock 'em out, let's have 'em out once and for all. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] Well, well you could say that's a very er a purely e em emotional er response and you can understand that, but I want to speak to to you er Colonel Michael, you're with the Royal Green Jackets. Now never mind the rights and wrongs [Michael:] I was was with them [Nicky Campbell:] You were with them yes. Never mind the rights of wrongs of what Ray said, [Michael:] Mm [Nicky Campbell:] er w I I suspect you don't agree with what Ray said. [Michael:] I don't. [Nicky Campbell:] But how long would it take for the army, the S A S or whatever to go in and erm clean up the situation as it were? In purely practical terms? [Michael:] Well that that is an entirely hypothetical question. [Nicky Campbell:] But in purely practical terms. [Michael:] but I I'm sorry b if you would let me answer. What I would wish to make absolutely clear is I don't believe that in the context of a liberal democracy that is even remotely a possibil it's a possibility but it's not an acceptable solution. [Nicky Campbell:] You've made that clear, you've made that absolutely clear. [Michael:] But yes it could be done, but even if it were done, and you were quite right, the the the intelligence is insufficiently precise to actually hit everybody. We might be able to write off fifty per cent or something like of that order, er of of of er known terrorists, but one would not be able to solve the situation even using those methods and you would create martyrs, you would merely exacerbate the situation, quite apart from the legal er horror, I mean i it is it is inconceivable in in in Britain, that sort of action. But even if it were, in would be ineffective. The the the intelligence is insufficient. [Nicky Campbell:] Can I just now you predicated that answer by saying this cannot be countenanced in a normal liberal democracy. Now there's seventeen people died in in Northern Ireland this week. [Michael:] Mm. [Nicky Campbell:] Are we talking about a normal liberal democracy? [Michael:] The fact that some members of that democracy, some individuals, flight its rules, doesn't mean that those, the vast majority, the ninety nine point nine per cent of us, follow their example. No we must er abide by the rule of law, as we always have done, as our trad as our traditions demand and as most of the people in this room I'm sure in their hearts would wish to. [Nicky Campbell:] Can I ask you, when the army went in in nineteen sixty nine, did you go in then? In sixty nine? [Michael:] I wasn't as I was there in the early seventies f for my first and then subsequently. [Nicky Campbell:] Right, do you think do you think did the army consider they were going into a colonial situation? [Michael:] No I don't think that's an accurate er characterization. I think the army thought they were going in to a situation where they could they could help, they saw themselves if you like as the referees er as a neutral party in between two sides. That situation only lasted for about a year and of course soon er the army was portrayed as the enemy, particularly by the I R A and the republican party and the republican population. [speaker002:] I take part of a thesis and I think I mean a lot of it is is very very important in terms of even considering internment, in relation to the whole intelligence problem. I think when the army went in that the army because there was no political direction from Westminster, we've seen the seats in the House of Commons, I mean nobody's there when Sir Patrick 's talking about Northern Ireland, which I think is absolutely disgraceful, when they're talking about their salaries they're there. Erm and so the army was left in a position where all it could do really was rely on its own history. And so therefore all it could do was look at Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, in terms of actually, I'm talking about the practicalities of [Michael:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know, how an army actually behaves and how it thinks. As mercenaries do. Well internment worked in Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, internment worked there. [Michael:] But the methods The methods they used were were the same tactical methods [speaker002:] Yes [Michael:] used in colonial situations. [speaker002:] Ab absolutely, absolutely. [Nicky Campbell:] Some hands are going up, some hands are going up. I want to find out what people are saying, yes I'll come to you in just a second about internment. What would you like to say? Over here. [speaker002:] Er the MP er the terrorists of today in further generations, the only way to stop them is to stamp out the supplier of er their arms and their money, as without th er the guns and the bombs er the edge have gone. The edge has er gone off terrorism. [Nicky Campbell:] Now you're from the Troops Out movement. You've been dying to speak all night. Perhaps you could address your point, cos I know you want the troops out, you think that'll be the key role to all the problems in Northern Ireland. What would you say to Ray? [Mary:] I think er it's tragic what happened to Ray and I think it's also tragic what's happening to people. You're talking about sending the S A S in. The S A S are already there and there are people that have been shot dead, unarmed people, civilians who've been shot dead by the S A S. I think [Michael:] That's rubbish. [Mary:] that the calls for internment [Michael:] That's just not true. [Mary:] I I think the calls [Nicky Campbell:] It's not true? [Mary:] for internment [Michael:] Of course it's not true no. [Mary:] I haven't finished [Michael:] The S A S have operated in Northern Ireland and have been for a long time. But they have operated against terrorists, they those terrorists have committed a crime and through intelligence the S A S have been in situ and have immediately shot those criminals. [Mary:] So the S A S are there? Can I just say [Nicky Campbell:] Ray. [Michael:] Yes they are there. Yes [Mary:] that er [Nicky Campbell:] Ray wants to say something. [Mary:] Yes I I haven't said anything [Nicky Campbell:] Then you can come back. [Ray:] My point is, you heard the say how well equipped the U D A are. Now that's the other side. So therefore if you pulled the troops out tomorrow, what would happen tomorrow? [Mary:] Can I answer? [Nicky Campbell:] Well I'm waiting for you. [Mary:] Oh sorry I thought the [Nicky Campbell:] No you've you carry on. [Mary:] Oh sorry. The er the troops w have been there for twenty five years nearly. And there is still no signs of peace. The talk of internment and sending in the S A S is an admission of political failure. Now every opinion poll in er Britain for the last twenty two years has said that they believe that has shown that the people believe that the troops should not be in Northern Ireland. [Nicky Campbell:] Right let's just another little er shout from this gentleman here. What would you like to say? [speaker002:] Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings. And it's for p for p for publicity. [tape change]. Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings. And it's for p for p for publicity. Publicity, the er the media should get out and not report all these er. [Nicky Campbell:] Oh starve them of publicity,th that'll. Surely, in the in the long run [John Taylor:] Can I just say on the [Nicky Campbell:] John Taylor yeah. [John Taylor:] Very briefly on the British troops. First of all British troops have been in in Northern Ireland for a hundred and ninety five years since eighteen hundred. They didn't just go in twenty three years ago as somebody suggested. Secondly, think what would happen if you took the troops out of Northern Ireland tonight. You would a Bosnia immediately, it would break up, send the U N in, look what it's done in Bosnia. [Nicky Campbell:] We are we are we are running out of time, John Taylor John Taylor I'll come to you in a second, John Taylor shush, shush you've had your shout, John Taylor [Mary:] I've had hardly any shout [Nicky Campbell:] Be be quiet please, John Taylor. [John Taylor:] Yes. [Nicky Campbell:] You talked about Bosnia there [John Taylor:] Yeah. [Nicky Campbell:] In Bosnia, Dr David Owen is sitting at the conference table with people who've committed genocide every day. Surely the logic in that is that we sh we should sit down the British government should sit down with Gerry Addams. [John Taylor:] If you take the British army out of Northern Ireland tonight, the U D A would clean up, you would have real civil war, it would be worse than ever, we have to be thankful that catholics and protestants [Nicky Campbell:] If Owen is talking, if Owen is talking [shouting] Quiet, be quiet, be quiet [] [speaker002:] be a nice, be a nice man, be a nice man. [Nicky Campbell:] I am asking this man a question, you have some manners please. If David Owen is talking to terrorists, why don't the British government talk to Gerry Addams? [John Taylor:] They did and look where it got them. They did that in nineteen seventy two, that's right [Nicky Campbell:] In nineteen seventy two. That was a long time ago, there's been a lot of water under the bridge, why not talk again? [John Taylor:] And a lot of blood under it as well. But I, the reality is this [Nicky Campbell:] sorry. [John Taylor:] that if you don't have internment, what are you going to do? Put up with what's going on, because the reality is, there's nobody in Northern Ireland prepared to stand up now and give evidence in open court, because if they do they're dead before the week is done. [speaker002:] Or the next day. [John Taylor:] And time after time after time, there have been cases prepared and whenever they came to court, there was nobody prepared to go into that courtroom. [speaker002:] Nicky can I make a point? Excuse me. Well he's one of the people who's prepared to recognize the English, the Scottish and the Welsh on this Ireland, [Clare Short:] Oh now you see why we can't get peace. [speaker002:] I was gonna say this Nicky. [Clare Short:] Nothing serious. [speaker002:] My my gran [clapping] My grandparents and my grandchildren have this in common. They both spoke about the Irish troubles. It's time to stop that. It's time to say the Irish problem is not impossible, it can be settled between the two sovereign governments, it's time for these people to stop saying, Ulster says no, that is no solution. [Nicky Campbell:] briefly [speaker002:] We've gotta talk to everybody [Nicky Campbell:] Briefly, briefly tonight er Reynolds and Major issued this statement which said all those claiming a serious interest in advancing the cause of peace in Ireland should renounce of or support for violence if and when such a renunciation of violence has been made and sufficiently demonstrated, new doors could open, do you think the I R A might well respond positively to that? [speaker002:] was done in the time of which set up the Republic of Ireland, get the I R A to declare a truce and talk to them and I think [Nicky Campbell:] Hang on. The I R A if they're asked to will? [speaker002:] They could deliver a truce, they would deliver a truce, and then they should be spoken to. [Nicky Campbell:] Okay thanks very much indeed that's all we've got time for, thank you.

[Ed Doolan:] [music] Welcome back. There are more than twenty circuses currently touring Britain, most of them without an elephant or a tiger in sight. Times have changed, and animal activists have been well, active. But our next guests are big believers in the big top circus animal, they haven't got any big cats, just domestic cats, have a look at these. [speaker002:] [clapping] [music] [Ed Doolan:] Did you believe that, Thomas is part of an eight cat routine at Circus International at, it's been at Sutton Coldfield, it's at Northfield over the weekend, but these are just domestic cats, ordinary domestic cats. Quite quite extraordinary. But they're doing this and they seem to be doing it quite unstressed. We talk about the stress in just a few minutes. It seems to be reasonably unstressed, we should be able to take a look at something else, now let's go over there again. What have you got for us now? [music] [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] Well you can forget the astonishment that cats can do it all, it is extraordinary that cats can do that at all. Let's put that aside and go to you Beth. Should cats be doing it at all, should any animal be made to do those sort of tricks? [Beth:] Well we don't believe that any animals should be made to perform these kind of silly tricks purely for the purposes of human entertainment. [speaker002:] I don't think it's silly. [Beth:] They simply don't have the right to do that. And also what we're seeing tonight is the the end product of a long process of training. What we don't to see what we don't get to see is the training beforehand. And obviously anybody's who's trained a domestic animal [Ed Doolan:] I'll be getting across to you in just a second, just give us a second and I'll be right over there mate. Is it not just harmless fun? [Beth:] Not at all. It's not harmless fun. People are are seeing animals as objects of entertainment, objects of amusement, we should not be allowing circuses to present animals in this way to our society and particularly to children. [Ed Doolan:] We shouldn't be allowed to present animals in this way. [Michael:] Well that's er that's rubbish because they're br er the circus was born in Great Britain in seventeen sixty eight by a captain in the army. [Ed Doolan:] But that was before television, people hadn't seen animals. They got telly now. [Michael:] Yes but what you saw er in that clip just now, erm wouldn't have been done by cruel methods, I can assure you of that. Having inspected menageries in circuses for the tes for the pa past ten years, I have seen no cruelty to any circus animal in that time, and that speaks for itself. [Ed Doolan:] Thanks a lot, I'm going to go to you Diane. Now cats are pretty independent creatures. And if there's a problem, a cat won't react. I've got a couple of Siamese moggies, I know what they're like. If they don't want to do it, they'll just say, you, in cat language of course. Tell me. [Diane:] If the cats weren't trained to do that I would assume that they would walk past the hoop of fire and they would under the ropes. Naturally a cat would not do an act like that. The cat has been made to do it. It is not a natural phenomenon and what worries me is we are miseducating children. I would hate to think that some children at home now are going to try and make their pet cat jump through a hoop of fire. [speaker002:] Rubbish. [Ed Doolan:] Well I s, sorry let's go to that, what was your point? [speaker002:] Children aren't that stupid if you're implying that my son would do that. [Gavin:] How're how're the kids gonna get the fire, you have, your children have boxes of matches and lighters do they, and cans of petrol and whatever else? [Diane:] Well to be to be honest to be honest er I haven't got children. [Gavin:] I'm not surprised. [Diane:] Oh here we go, it's started, it's started. [Gavin:] these are my children, I wouldn't harm them for the world. [Ed Doolan:] Gavin, you adopted and trained the, let's get back to the point. You adopted and trained the cats Gavin. Do they really enjoy this? [Gavin:] Well I think so, if they didn't want to do it, they wouldn't do it. [Ed Doolan:] But how do you, how do you know [Gavin:] I ask them to do it. [Ed Doolan:] How do you know they're enjoying it? [Gavin:] I say come here like a dog, you say come here and they come here [speaker002:] no choice [Gavin:] and they do it. [Ed Doolan:] What do you mean they've no choice? [speaker002:] I mean we're not just this with cats, [Ed Doolan:] Hang on. Diane, what is so wrong with training a cat? [Diane:] I don't agree with training any animal to m to do to use [Ed Doolan:] any animal [Diane:] for entertainment, any animal for use for entertainment like in the circus. This particular circus, besides having the cats, has got parrots, it's got erm young African elephants, I've been to watch [Gavin:] Which which was saved [Ed Doolan:] Pat, let's forget the little cats, let's turn to the big cats, let's turn to the lions and tigers. Let's turn to the elephants, the seals. Isn't that what a circus is really about? [speaker002:] Of course it is. [Pat:] No we're talking about here, we're talking about Victorian entertainment. Let's take the point about the elephants. These are not the s great saviours of the wild. [speaker002:] Of course we are. [Pat:] These people have crem created oh no you're not, these people claim to save elephants, they're not. They're taking baby elephants from a cull. Can you imagine the trauma of those baby elephants? They've watched their parents being shot, many ha many ha [speaker002:] Because have killed the elephants [Pat:] Excuse me, can I finish, er many of them are chained to the parent's legs while they're collected for these people then to bring to a circus, traumatized and chained to the ground for life. If these people wanted to d if these people wanted to c and they really cared about conservation and education they'd do what the care for the wild have done. [speaker002:] Leave them there to be culled? [Pat:] They would save elephants, [Ed Doolan:] Let Dave respond, Dave respond [Pat:] and stop this [Ed Doolan:] Let Dave respond [Dave:] Have you seen our circus, have you seen our circus? [Diane:] I have. [Dave:] You have. [Diane:] I have. I was actually er answering your friend's comments there, but he spoke over you so I wanted to answer him back. [speaker002:] Oh that's okay. [Diane:] I do have to pay into circuses unfortunately erm because I go in as a member of the public to watch the act, and when I can, I pay the money to go [speaker002:] Did you did you [Diane:] Excuse me can I finish? When I go I usually pay er to go round the back er which in some circuses you can do and only two weeks ago [speaker002:] It's free in our circus, free in our circus [Diane:] only two weeks ago, I actually saw er elephants chained up by their legs, in a marquee at a British circus. [speaker002:] That wasn't in our circus. [Diane:] This is totally wrong, it's a totally wrong way of using animals, animals are just used in circuses for entertainment, for profit, [Ed Doolan:] Just hold tight a minute, because I want to go up here and talk to the customers. Now here's a couple of customers, you were at the circus, first of all how did you feel about the circus that you saw? [speaker002:] It was brilliant, it was absolutely brilliant. Lots acts and things, yeah. [Ed Doolan:] And what did you feel about it? [speaker002:] I thought it was really good. No no cruelty in it at all. [Ed Doolan:] Did you feel sorry for the animals at all? Did did you feel that there was some cruelty going on? [speaker002:] No. The children aren't really qualified to notice cruelty though are they? [Ed Doolan:] What did you find was the most interesting part of the circus? For you, the most enjoyable for you? [speaker002:] There was a a knife throwing act, not really a knife throwing act human acts. It's like erm. [Ed Doolan:] Okay, what about you what was your favourite part? [speaker002:] The acrobats. [Ed Doolan:] You liked the acrobats? Okay we got some more young people over here and we're gonna talk to them as well. Where are you? There you are. What was your favourite part of the circus? You, what was your fa you were at the circus weren't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Ed Doolan:] What was your favourite part? [speaker002:] Erm I like it when the cats erm was balancing on the rope. [Ed Doolan:] You liked the cat on the rope? And what about you what did you like? [speaker002:] I liked the same. [Ed Doolan:] You liked the cat on the rope? And this lovely lady in front, Clare what about you, what did you like best? [speaker002:] I liked [Ed Doolan:] Here you use my little microphone, what did you like best? [speaker002:] I liked the bit [LAUGHTER] [Ed Doolan:] every week I have fight people off my microphone. Come on Clare. [speaker002:] I liked the bit where the cat jumped through the fire. [Ed Doolan:] You liked the cat through the fire. Okay, that's what the youngsters have to s, [cough] pardon me, that's what the youngsters have to say, Dave are the animals, let's pick from Diane now, are the animals little more than prisoners? They haven't got much choice, they're with you, they live with you, you feed 'em, they gotta work for you. [Dave:] No that's wrong. [speaker002:] No. [Dave:] And saying it saying that way, we love animals as circus people. You say it's money. It's not money to us, it's a way of life. Circuses have been going for two hundred years. If you'd come down today or any fine day, our elephants are grazing, roaming around, our horses are [speaker002:] That's right. [Dave:] let out, this morning at eight thirty [speaker002:] Roaming around how big a space? [Dave:] There's about there's about eight acres at the moment. [speaker002:] Yeah, well in the wild they would be roaming around considerably more than eight acres. [Dave:] In the wild they would have been culled. [Diane:] Not necessarily. [Ed Doolan:] Are your animals happy? [Dave:] Our animals are very very happy. [Ed Doolan:] Do come in, do come in. [speaker002:] With that cat going through the flame. It had all the stress indicators,i enlarged pupils, fluffed tail, I saw, I saw That act was punishment centred It's stress, oh my god, and given token food at the end of the act, but believe me, all circus training involves a lot of cruelty, especially with elephants, because they're so [Gavin:] Excuse me I don't involve cruelty in my training [Ed Doolan:] Have you been cruel? [Gavin:] No I will not be cruel, you cannot be cruel with them. You really can't. [speaker002:] You need to be prosecuted under the nineteen eleven act, because you hung a cat from a a star, [Gavin:] I hung a cat? [speaker002:] far above the ground [Ed Doolan:] Is that cruel? [Gavin:] The cat was placed on a platform which went [Ed Doolan:] Have another have a another look. [Gavin:] I had someone come to see me the other week from the R S P C A because they said this cat was held forty foot in the air [speaker002:] Look at this, this disgusting, you should be prosecuted for this. and swung round for. [Ed Doolan:] Let me get up to our animal behaviourist here. [speaker002:] swing it round [Ed Doolan:] Now you were were sponsored to travel around and er [speaker002:] by your tail. [Ed Doolan:] look at circuses for about eighteen months. What were your findings? [Dr Marthe:] I found that [clears throat] most of the animals in the circuses were looked after with a great deal of care and attention. There are improvements that can be made but that's to be said for all animal husbandry systems, from pets, to guide dogs for the blind, and every other every other type of system. As far as the training goes, it's extremely difficult to train particularly big pa cats, unless you're going to use positive reinforcement, a r, in other words a r reward. If you use punishment you are likely to get eaten, so there's fairly strict quick er selection for [clapping] appropriate behaviour. As far as these cats were concerned, I have little doubt that nothing but positive r reinforcement would have been given because if they had been punished they simply wouldn't have done it, and they would have run away and it's very much more difficult as a as a performer to have an animal w isn't going to want to do the act. So what you do as a trainer in a circus you try and encourage the animal to want to the act and to reinforce it for so doing and that may be food, it may be actually just affection for the people who are training and that's what a trainer wants to try and. [Ed Doolan:] So the animals weren't treated er roughly according to our animal behaviourist here. [speaker002:] Well I'm an animal psychologist too, and believe me you don't control a four ton animal like an elephant just by giving it titbits. I it it is managed with and the initial process of domesticating and training elephants is very cruel indeed. We're robbing them from the wild, and including Africa with all this nonsense about saving them from culls, it's it's [Ed Doolan:] Let me, let me ask this lady here to come in, up there on the aisle, third row. [speaker002:] Yes I'm a veterinary surgeon so I think I'm fairly qualified. [Ed Doolan:] You're a vet? [speaker002:] I'm a vet [Ed Doolan:] Yes. [speaker002:] So I think I'm fairly qualified to talk about stress and anxiety in cats. I've seen these cats as well and they are stressed, they're showing very classic signs of stress. Fire is all animals' natural enemy, no animal is gonna go through fire of its own volition, erm and again the point, just moving away from the cats, which I'd agree, the cat was hanging on to that platform, looking very stressed, signs of its tail, course it's not gonna jump. Okay cats tend to land on their feet but they also tend to take injuries like erm severe pancreatic injuries if they land from high things, so they don't just [Ed Doolan:] So as a vet you believe there was severe stress? [speaker002:] Yes, severe stress, they were showing, sorry? Have you done any work in circus as a vet? I don't need to to recognize domestic cats being stressed, do I? [Ed Doolan:] Let me ask you Rusty, Rusty the clown, now Rusty as a clo, Oi, can let me do the show, please. Er maybe next week. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ed Doolan:] Rusty. [Rusty:] Yes. [Ed Doolan:] You're a clown, you're the love figure in the circus, kids love you, people come to you, you're the affectionate, you're the warm. [Rusty:] That's right. [Ed Doolan:] You see the animals on, you see the animals off. Do you ever see mistreatment? I'm serious with you. [Rusty:] I can say a hundred per cent, I've never seen any mistreatment. I've got two children in the circus, I've got one five year old that's at the age now where yo he's he's watching everything and learning everything. If I saw any cruelty in this business, I'd leave the business because I wouldn't like my son to be brought up in an environment where there was cruelty to animals. [Diane:] Can I just say that if you leave the transportation of the animals aside and the training of the animals aside, I don't think we have a right to use animals in this way. But this man here is obviously going to say he's seen no cruelty, he h obviously hasn't seen the circus madness video that w was released by I A W A and Animals Defenders this year, where there is an absolutely horrendous scene of a llama being beaten around the head and chest. [Ed Doolan:] A llama. [Diane:] And it was a British circus. [Ed Doolan:] You have llamas in your circus Mr John? [speaker002:] That's right. [Ed Doolan:] You have llamas in your circus, what do you ask your llamas to do sir? [speaker002:] They do a very similar routine to a liberty pony. The sort of things they do in the wild, running, jumping, pirouetting, I'd just like to say that's not, that's not er actually my circus on that particular video and we haven't identified which circus it was on that particular one. My general point is that we're talking about er freedom for anybody to go if they want, these people are trying to stop the freedom of the paying public. into your region. I don't ever come into this Birmingham Midlands region at all, so I object to everyone saying circuses are cruel and generalizing [Ed Doolan:] Is a circus a circus without animals? [speaker002:] Certainly not. It's been tried before by bigger names than me doesn't have any animals and they're very very successful. in the English dictionary, the word circus actually means with animals. [Diane:] And it might be traditional but that doesn't make it right, bear baiting and dog fighting [Ed Doolan:] Diane and Pat [Pat:] Victorian entertainment. [Ed Doolan:] You object to animals in circuses, [Pat:] Yes [Ed Doolan:] you've made that perfectly clear, we actually got that message loud and clear. [speaker002:] She doesn't object to them on her feet [Ed Doolan:] Now tell me have you ever [Diane:] that's actually plastic [Ed Doolan:] have you ever, come on let's not wander off, have you have you ever done anything apart from coming on programmes like this and talking about it, have you ever done anything against it? [Diane:] I actually try and educate the public, I do school talks, I will go outside a circus and I will give out leaflets. Let me ha hasten to add here. I'm not against circuses. I am against circuses with animal acts, and I do not try and stand outside a circus and stop people going in. I give them information and [Ed Doolan:] What would happen to, what wou yes sorry, what would happen to the animal acts if the circus is closed down? [Diane:] What happens to them now? [Ed Doolan:] No no follow my line. What would happen to the animal acts if the circus was closed down? [speaker002:] Exactly what happens to them now. [Diane:] What happens to old retired circus animals now? [speaker002:] You're say you're saying that we're cruel to animals? [Diane:] What happens, answer me, answer [speaker002:] from these people, these animal lovers, what happens to your animals [Ed Doolan:] Both sides claim they like animals. Now you're accused by these people of cruelty, of neglect, shouldn't you be listening? If people actually accuse you of something as serious as cruelty and neglect, isn't it worth a listen? [speaker002:] Well the point is If you come up with some sensible idea yes, but they don't [Ed Doolan:] Have you ever, have you ever suffered yourself, [speaker002:] No. [Ed Doolan:] from er from attacks from animal activists? [speaker002:] Yes we have, it's been Liverpool. [Ed Doolan:] Are you gonna tell us about it, or is it a secret? [speaker002:] have been set on fire people think they'd be better off dead. [Ed Doolan:] What was the zebra story? [speaker002:] The zebra was released by people calling themselves the Animal Liberation Front they were chased through the town in Torquay until it ran off the pier and drowned in the sea. That were their logic in saving an animal's life. [Ed Doolan:] What needs to be done? [Diane:] Animal circuses should be closed, and we should have circuses with just people in them because people have chosen to be there. The animals have not. We haven't got a right to treat [speaker002:] performing animals yes. [Diane:] we haven't got a right to treat animals in this manner. [Ed Doolan:] Grown-ups shush. Youngsters only. Should circuses be closed? Yes or no? [speaker002:] No. [Ed Doolan:] That's what the youngsters have to say. Ladies and gentlemen can I thank you very much, goodnight. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] Right, from Highgate has said if the good lord wanted cats to fly he would've given them wings, it's cruel doing things like that to animals. One's just been handed to me here, Christine from Derby says I've kept cats for twenty years and taught them loads of tricks. They do the tricks out of pure love and devotion to their owner. And Ray er Mr from Nottingham says, I used to work for a circus, I'm an animal lover and all the animals I saw were treated very well. Rose from Coventry says, cats will not do anything they don't want to do. These cats look well cared for and I should know because I work in a pet surgery. And er finally on er on our debate earlier on, a lot of callers tonight are er I would say quite justifiably angry about the language used in an earlier debate, the earlier drugs debate by Vernon. Well we we back that up here at Central Weekend and we apologize if anyone's been offended. That is it for this week, so er hope you enjoyed it, join us next Friday for another er burning hot series of debates er another three ring circus, it's called A Central Weekend. Goodnight, take care. [speaker002:] [clapping] [music]

[Dyfrig James:] My Fellow Tablers, I will never ever forget how proud I was to say those words, Fellow Tablers, my first as a Tabler after being inducted some thirteen years ago. That same feeling of pride and excitement is here today and I use those so so meaningful words to greet you as your National President. Fellow Tablers I thank you most sincerely for the honour and opportunity you have given me to become your sixtieth National President. Round Table more than anything else is about people. It is people who make things happen, it is people who bring that special ingredient of fun and fellowship. It is people who give you encouragement and support to turn ideas and dreams into reality and it is people who become friends. In this regard I couldn't have been more fortunate. And my enormous thanks go to my own Table, Chester seventy six, very very true friends indeed and the same for the whole of my own area, Area thirty six Wirral and the Marches, where nothing has been too much trouble and they are here today as you've just seen in some considerable strength. They have been absolutely incredible and I would like to publicly record my deep affection for everything they have done and are continuing to do. My P L C under the Chairmanship of Chester Tabler Mark has been wonderful and the encouragement I have received from seeing the enthusiasm and commitment of the very young Tablers as I purposely invited twenty year old Tablers to be involved in the P L C has given me considerable optimism for the future of Round Table. Most importantly there will be one person affected more than me in the year ahead. She's the glow that keeps together our family life my business life at the same time has always been supportive of my involvement in Round Table. Glesni, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your willingness to share thirteen years of Round Table and the twelve months of Presidency ahead. Fellow Tablers I will never ever forget my first A G M in Manchester. Raschid who is here today was President and I attended with my own Table Chairman at that time David who not only encouraged me to attend my first A G M but encouraged me to get involved involved in ri in Round Table right from the very onset. He helped to get me hook, Round Table did the rest. Raschid that day and Dava late and David later when retiring used the immortal words, Please take care of my Table. It is now our responsibility in the year ahead to care for this movement which is so dear to our hearts to those who have gone before and to the young members who with our encouragement will be involved in the future. The membership issue now has the profile it deserves and demands at Table, Area and National levels and this must be continued. If the answer lies anywhere it lies in the hearts and minds of Tablers. All I'm gonna do is add to what Keith said earlier today and encourage you fellow Tablers to use your hearts and minds over the next twelve months in this direction. There is good news from the tax man our deregistration on subscriptions has been accepted and we are due a refund. This could be a substantial amount of money and it is important in the year ahead that we debate fully how this should be invested in the future of R T B I. The Forward Planning Committee will be asked to seek your views and bring the proposal to the A G M in Skegness. Round Table Day is made for Table and Table only and has all the best features which are inherent in this movement. Each Table or Area doing its own thing in its own way and as an Association moving powerfully in unison. It will be a day which will be inevitably based on fun on fellowship and on benefiting others. Whilst at the same time improving our public image and increasing our awareness. I would very much therefore like to think that Round Table Day on the nineteenth of March nineteen ninety four next year will be the success that you wish to make it. Focusing our energies and our efforts externally. I promised in my five minute address last year that I would be a listener and I've already listened to many of your views over the last twelve months and indeed today. I promise you that I will continue to listen and where I can I will do my best to respond to the wishes of the ideals of and the aspirations of this movement that I hold so dear. The opportunity to serve you and to meet you over the next twelve months I look forward to enormously and while I'm not conceited enough to think that I can move mountains in the year ahead, or naive enough to think that I can please everybody fully, fellow Tablers I promise you I will not let you down. Thank you. [recording ends]

[Mary:] It's very much worth it d'ya know. I think television would be as much to blame as any you know the bairns the children's programmes are all in English and so on you can. It amazes me I hear Orkney children in Orkney and they'll be playing and talking to one another in English you know. They'll be exclamations and things they're just exclamations that they've heard I think on television. [speaker002:] Yes I know that with mine it was American. They used all these Americanisms because a lot of the problems were American. [Mary:] Yes. [speaker002:] And the they used to when they would speak Orcadian among their their pals and then when they when they were playing games all the kids the Orcadian ones whether they were Orcadian or not would adopt this American drawl and they all spoke like that. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] Yes of course maybe play acting when they're doing that they're more conscious of the way they're speaking and they probably want to make it right with what they think it should be. And as I say I don't know what sort of things children watch on T V but it's all in English. [speaker002:] Did you find at school that your dialect was hammered? [Mary:] Yes. Er when I was young erm you know you didn't have to use dialect at all. Er we got leave to use it in the playground as far as I can imagine but we made an awful division or if we didn't it pretty quickly in the class. I can't remember which teacher it was referred to anything Orcadian we used as Orkneyisms. And if you were used Orkneyisms you were a very poor scholar indeed. [speaker002:] I remember a wee boy in the class I was in in the primary school and he got a row he I remember him getting a row from the teacher and he s the teacher said what did you do wrong and he said oh I've gone and putten putten where I should've putten put [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] yes. [speaker002:] What was putten was that was that East Mainland? [Mary:] No that's that's West Mainland too. Putten and while am I putten nothing. [speaker002:] A putten something somewhere [Mary:] Yes. [speaker002:] instead of put it somewhere. [Mary:] Yes and we'd never use put. [speaker002:] Are there a lot of differences between the the East and the West Mainland? [Mary:] Er quite a lot I think maybe. Most would you know be in intonation and pronunciation. To anybody who's used to listening to dialect the East and the West are very different. All the parishes used to be different and it used to be possible at one time to know approximately where in Orkney somebody came from. And this is still the case with older folk. Many of the older folk if you get them really going in their own dialect you can just say roughly where they come from. One of the common differences between East and West is the words like table and table in West we'd say table and East they'd say table. And the West peal comes appeal and the West's heard becomes a heard and the one sort of difference that's still there and it may take quite while to go is that the East Mainland when they're saying a sentence they tend to go up at the end of the sentence the voice rises. Whereas the West Mainland never goes really up at the end of the sentence or at least not to the same extent. I can't make the East Mainland very well. I would like to go to the [mimicking] town today [], and she's awfully she's no [mimicking] the day [] and they tend to go up at the end. And there's other wee things too. Something that the East Mainland folk find awfully funny is the West Mainland call potatoes. We don't go out to gather potatoes we go to hunt taters And the East Mainland don't say that at all they would call them more tatties or taties [speaker002:] I thought taties was north isles. [Mary:] That's verging on north isles right enough. Well Westray maybe has as distinctive a dialect as any apart from North Ronaldsay of course. North Ronaldsay is in a class by it's own and easily recognizable. But er I believe that at one time people from the islands settled in some of the farms for the East Mainland whether there's a similarity in the matter of table or heard and all these sort of things. There is a similarity creeps in there whether that came with islands or whether it was there before I just don't know. [speaker002:] Because they table and heat instead of table and. [Mary:] Yes. [speaker002:] It sound far more proper in the West Mainland then. [Mary:] Well you could say that and yet we're awfully broad. I would say in just a general accent the way we talk you know. Birsay folk are always considered very broad and so are the Harray folk. Maybe more so than say Sandwick and I find like Rendal folk you could tell some of them even yet. I always think they have a very nasal pronunciation. They seem to talk quite a lot up high in the in their nasal passages. And Evie of course well Evie's great for sort of old fashioned exclamations you know. They're great for that sort of thing. And that's a good old Orkney word too. Just as an exclamation and Evie folk would take it into their conversation I think even yet the older ones of them. [speaker002:] I've got a granny who comes from the south isles and she says and that's. If you say something and she's surprised she'll say, oh. [Mary:] Yes. That's a thing I find that we're losing very much is all these exclamations and of course a lot of exclamations were calling on a divine hand of God to look after you. I mean there's a whole range of exclamations that, bless me, or bless me as we would say. And God and mercy me that was just have mercy on me. And mine matey and bess be about me that was quite a long exclamation but it was something surprise them terribly, Oh bess be about me, just sort of, Oh God come to me help, sort of thing. And the blessings on me, that was the thing that sort of for anybody who helped them. It wasn't, Oh thank you very much I'm much obliged or anything like that. It was, Be blessings on thee, I mean and may God bless you for the help you've given me. And that's a common enough one yet. [speaker002:] Granny she says, My. [Mary:] yes. was a a very common one too. You see you don't hear them any more. Oh yes. [speaker002:] What was that supposed to mean? Was it just [Mary:] Oh just the same thing. Just an exclamation. [speaker002:] And [Mary:] I think would be more Scottish. [speaker002:] Was it bairns. [Mary:] Oh yes bairns. I I could not say it wasn't fairly common too but no maybe yes is a good one. doing dialect there's still a things like the wireless and the weather things like that sometimes give it a personality as a. My mother when she wanted anybody to turn off the wireless used to say [LAUGHTER]. Much to the amusement of two American girls who stayed with us because they didn't know what this phrase was I mean they couldn't have sort it out in the first place of what it meant. When they had sort it out they just didn't know but they would go you know prancing around saying to one another saying then [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] A lot of Orkney a lot of, I'm going to sneeze now, a lot of Orkney men use the word, She, [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker002:] when they're referring to the tractor or the horse or the car [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker002:] is that an Orkney way of doing it or is that just a sort of male thing? [Mary:] Erm I've never really thought about it I think it's a male thing probably isn't it? I think maybe English men would refer to their car as She or so on if they get to think you know they make things have personalities you start to give them personal pronoun there. [speaker002:] Or their boat you know boy she's [Mary:] Yes. [speaker002:] boy she's no running right. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] That's right. The tractor's a she right enough very often. And there's another sort of things now that we don't hear is when you sit down at the table to eat erm they're probably the most the hostess would say now would be, Help yourself. But er there was a whole range of things like, Put in the hand and and erm they thought you weren't eating plenty or told to and supper. [speaker002:] Yes that's just an Orkney way of saying fall too. [Mary:] Yes. And Put in the hand just literally put your hand in and get something to eat. Cos it makes for a lot of you know if you don't have and say well I'm not going to put in my feet anyway. [speaker002:] Yeah another thing that that old folk use I know that my granny used to say she'll say she'll turn things round she'll say, I'm having nothing with it to do, instead of, I'm no having anything to do with it. Is that common? [Mary:] Yes it's fairly common among older folk still. We s tend to move the sentences around more and they lines sort of you know, Do you know where my shovel is, where my shovel is and erm, Who's the day, asking how are you. [speaker002:] That's from Shetland, Who's the day. [Mary:] I know who's the day, yes just a similar similar phrasing. [speaker002:] The thou and the thee and the thines. You've just said thou who's thou the day. There are a lot of old folks still use that? [Mary:] Oh yes it's quite common and common in middle aged folk even yet among people you're familiar with. I mean even when I was small you wouldn't use thee and thou to an older person. It was somehow thought of as being irreverent but to members of your own family and people your own age or somebody younger than you you would use thee and thou. But if it was perhaps even a little one your own age if you didn't know them very well it would be you. Thee and thou were s a term implied intimacy and affection and closeness the thee and thou as far as I always understood it. And another sort of very close phrase that disappeared is is a phrase awfully much used. Orcadian dialect it's often said has no words of endearment no dears or darlings but I think perhaps came as near to it as any word. It was said to small children and maybe a young man would say it to his lass but always implied affection of something young and tender. [speaker002:] Yes I'd forgotten that. Yes. [talk in background] You said about West Mainland folk. [Mary:] Well well just the different words it's really a matter of pronunciation. Like in Harray we would say, up to go up and er the Deerness folk then would say, up or something like that, up. And erm [speaker002:] It's just to go up. [Mary:] Up yes mhm. Up and up and er in Harray we'd say, wee that's just for us you know, we. And I think the Deerness folk say, wey and we would call a young heifer a. Whereas the Deerness people would call it a. Just very similar the difference is there in the pronunciation. But a completely different word would be the word for what's behind the cattle in the West Mainland it's a and in the East Mainland it's an or an. I think that varies too from parishes to islands. There is this just this slight difference in in the words. I think I'm really sorry now is to see all the old words really going. I don't think they'll be any left once the generation who were born before the war see are gone. But we still have the dialect and the sort of tone of it and and phrasing of it but so much of the old vocabulary is just disappearing altogether. I sometimes find myself using them yet long years you know when I thought I'd forgotten them and any younger person just looks at me in amazement and has no idea what I'm talking about. [speaker002:] Yes I remember my granny coming out with the word [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I hadn't a clue what that was. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] sort of called a lot of things it was a fright or a flapping around or a haste or a, what did what did granny somet [speaker002:] Mm, We don't get enough she said. [Mary:] yeah that's right aha. Well I went into the shop in Harray very short ago. I used to go to Orkney for to go and asked for some cardboard boxes only we call them pasteboard boxes. And when the girl came with them I says I think I'll take them all if you can them. And she looked at me and blinked her eyes I says you what means. No she said. And I says well it is two different meanings the one I'm using is just if you can spare it, if you can it. And a of course is also what they used to get when you wanted to make mealy puddings you made them with the the intestines of an animal and that's also called a. Well that's two that's a word with two meanings that's now just completely out of use more or less. [speaker002:] I haven't heard of that one either. [Mary:] Mhm. Oh you wouldn't [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker002:] No. [Mary:] Yep. [speaker002:] Something I did think of when you mentioned about the the cattle dung that the word that we remember was. [Mary:] Ah yes. Well it can be inside but it's really outside and rotted. Rotted wet cattle dung, it's no fresh cattle dung's never. It's when you get this black really stinking rotten hole that you call it. [speaker002:] And that's what came out of the was the. [Mary:] That's right. What seeped out of the and mixed with some air from there would have been a little dung in it to it stood half the summer and got to be really high. That was. And heaven help you if you fell in the. [speaker002:] Yes that's how I remember [LAUGHTER] it []. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] I did. Yeah there's there's there's a whole lot of others that were in me head that I I meant to write down before you came in. [Mary:] Mhm. Oh you know it's all right. [speaker002:] There's erm... [Mary:] it's just that I like it you know. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Mary:] Mhm. So long as they understand that there's this also the erm you know er said to me, Oh it's just English sort of said differently. I said well no really at all there's the whole vocabulary as well. Which is the vocabulary is disappearing first and then I think maybe the actual intonations and phrases will disappear then too. But it'll take quite a long time for them to go though. But I do think the vocabulary will be lost very shortly now. [speaker002:] Something that I noticed is in the towns like Kirkwall and Stromness there's a kind of slovenly way of speaking Orcadian where they go [mimicking] butter water []. [Mary:] Yes that's very much Kirkwall I would say particularly. There is a slight difference between Kirkwall and Stromn so Kirkwall's another place you the accent of a native born Kirkwallian unless you say the [mimicking] butter and water [] and things like that. And Stromness accents no quite so easily picked out as Kirkwall but you know that they're from one of the two towns anyway usually. [speaker002:] I don't know if it's progressed into the villages. I haven't noticed [Mary:] No that's very much well very much Kirkwall I would say. [speaker002:] Has Kirkwall always been like that then? [Mary:] Yes. Oh yes. [speaker002:] I wondered about that. [Mary:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah I suppose in the country too there Kirkwall would have been the first Kirkwall or Stromness probably Kirkwall would have been the first place where the accents would have been going to go. [Mary:] I would think so and the particularly the folk living in the towns consciously tended to use less Orcadian you know they they'd more dealings with folk from outside the islands for one thing and folk come on in off ships and so on. And part of the reason of course the dialect is gone is that we unconsciously sort of translate what we're going to say into good English so that we're understood. Because there are so many English folk now in every community and we do tend to sort of doctor up the language a bit you know when we talk to them. Otherwise they just wouldn't understand us. [speaker002:] And some places that erm I know that in some places they have their own local way of speaking and then they speak a different way to other folk. But then they lapse back into the local way of speaking when they're on their own. But they don't seem to do that here. [Mary:] Er not in Kirkwall you mean? [speaker002:] Yeah they they don't seem to like I I know that in Wick a lot of the folk in Wick have have two se they've got their own dialect and they've got English. And in fact in some of the schools was here I know that Mrs Flaws erm from Wyre her idea at the school was to make Orcadian children bilingual. [Mary:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And that they would have the the language that they spoke at home and the language that they spoke at school. And that they found it easier when they that that English was English and Orcadian was Orcadian. [Mary:] Yes. Yes I see what you mean probably thou thought Wick's a strange dialect to you they relax it some more too. You see it's really what happens to the older folk like me. I never talk to anybody as I'm talking now even. Er to me friends you know. [speaker002:] No it's a it's a totally different when [Mary:] It's a [speaker002:] you're relax you speak in a totally different way. [Mary:] Ye yes totally different way. Aha. [speaker002:] Do you find that the school used to make you very inhibited about the way you spoke? [Mary:] Oh yes when I went to Stronsay Academy first we were very much kids for the country being all this country ones and often we'd sometimes be and said some terribly wild and woolly awfully countrified phrase you know until pride sort of came to our rescue when we we got out of it as much as ever we could. The Orkney word for what we were doing is chanting. You know that of course if you chant. Chanting's when you're talking to other Orcadians in your best English when there's really no need for it when you just want to show off that you're. Here ago you see it implied that you were so much more learned and knowledgeable and clever if you could talk English. And if you spoke English to a fellow Orcadian you were chanting. Which was their sort of way of making fun of you because you were showing off which is what a native Orcadian thinks any of his contemporaries talking in English to anyone other than an English person. They they're showing off. Or did do mind you I I wouldn't think it now not for younger folk that's not the case but for the older folk it very much worse. [speaker002:] Do you think they're being slapped down over dialect?... [whispering] Erm I must have gonna put yeah [] Do you think they're being slapped down over dialect at school? Made Orcadians very reluctant to speak up in public? [Mary:] Oh certainly. In fact you couldn't adequately express yourself in English you were just better to shut up. [speaker002:] Do you think that's still predominant? [Mary:] Oh no no. I think young folk now are much more ready to express themselves and express themselves in public. We were erm not given many opportunities to do that only through things well local clubs like the W R I and which er and in that way all Orcadians just trying to do our best together you know. And the Young Farmers' Clubs were quite good for they encouraged speech making and how to express yourself lucidly and er how to speak nicely. That was quite good. But you see there was always this thought that it was always to better yourself that you were doing this that your Orcadian was just for home about and among yourselves and what it didn't really matter. But if you really wanted to make an impression you had to get rid of this Orcadian fast.... [speaker002:] For for visitors coming to Orkney do you think it that there's a happy medium?... come to Orkney. Is there a way of talking in your natural dialect that they can understand you and yet without losing it? [Mary:] I don't really think there is. I know some folk won't change for anybody they just go harping on in their dialect and er well this fellow said some visitors just don't understand him I always find myself translating in a situation like that. They can't even pick up just the words that are English words only pronounced in the Orcadian way.... Like I'm I'm gone to the shop. Well just the intonation and the and the way you would say that they they can't pick it up. [speaker002:] The Shetlanders don't seem to do that to the same extent they don't seem to change their dialect. [Mary:] No they're they're much better at keeping it and they seem to manage quite well too. [speaker002:] And yet doesn't Shetland doesn't seem so difficult to un maybe it's because we're Orcadian but Shetland doesn't seem to be so difficult to understand for somebody outside than Orcadian is I wonder why? [Mary:] I think that's maybe because we're Orcadian for no matter how good we're feeling if we go you know that yourself if you go south anywhere and you meet up with just anybody that's ever heard an Orcadian. Well my you come from Orkney. You think that's especially true and like say Aberdeen if you go in a shop there and and, at least it used to be the case, and asked for something you be thought you were speaking fine but they would just say, Oh my you down from Orkney for a holiday? You know right away picked you up right away. [speaker002:] Did folk often used to accuse you of being Welsh? [Mary:] Qui quite frequently Welsh and once [LAUGHTER] German []. [speaker002:] Yes I often used to be accused of being Welsh but it is different. [Mary:] It's different but erm if you really get an Orkney talker just talking to one another and er drawing out the words sometimes and so on it can get to be the same lilt as Welsh. And probably to a you know to an untutored ear it would sound reasonably similar. [recording ends]

[Mansie Flaws:] We stayed in that house till I were eight year old and then we were went on to where I lived the rest of my time and that would have been from nineteen twenty to oh a couple of year ago. [speaker002:] What was it like on Wyre then was it very different? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh entirely different from now. The pier and the hydro and the telephone made a big difference to it. But erm other [break in recording] eighteen inches or two foot to a jetty to land it. All the feeding stuff and there were a pile of feeding stuff then for the hens were all and cattle were fed and all the feeding stuff had to be imported. And sometimes it landed in a gay sorry mess and it really wouldn't there just a couple of feet a couple of stones high just the height of the jetty. And we've had many a soaking landing the stuff. Steamer sometimes anchored off and sometimes it didn't anchor there was too much wind I guess the anchor didn't hold too well when it was a rough day. [speaker002:] How often did you get the steamer? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh it varied from time to time. In the winter time they'd come out on a Monday morning and came back on Tuesday from Kirkwall. And then the summer time they come out on a Monday morning and gone back at on Monday night. That was the the first one I can remember. The shipping company supplied the boat for bringing the goods ashore. There's usually a old salmon coble they'd pick up from down the coast somewhere. Very flat on the bottom and turned up to the bow and that's what the salmon fishers used in the in the rivers for pulling their nets in and fishing salmon on the. [speaker002:] Why choose one of the was it cos they were suitable or cheaper? [Mansie Flaws:] Well they were suitable and [LAUGHTER] cheaper [] they were too blooming cheap for the they were usually condemned by the time we got them. They lashed alongside and they lowered the stuff right onto the onto the coble To start with we rowed it ashore with a couple or oars or maybe four oars and took off the cattle and that the same way just. Or they put a sling round them or made a canvass and two supports on the side of it and the sling to be too hard on the cattle's sides. Like a sort of hammock [LAUGHTER]. And er put that on and tied them back and front and up on them tied them to the sides of the coble and and usually towed it with another rowing boat. It was all done by oars then. [speaker002:] Were the cattle and all? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh they were not too bad for that we never had any real [LAUGHTER] disaster []. Just had one jumped over the side from us once and swamp ashore again and we caught it on the on the land again and put it away. I'm having to swim them off the steamer and tow them in a dinghy to get our put the slings on them before we left the beach and just pushed them into the water and towed them off and hook the hook the into the sling and up them to give them a good wash before they went to Kirkwall. [speaker002:] It's funny how an animal like a cow or a horse would swim you would think it would be [Mansie Flaws:] Well they can they can swim like fish. For I remember us doing a flipping er a family came to Wyre once and we were on the same old coble we were er doing the flipping and we thought we had nothing to do but take the rope off their heads and push them over the side of the coble onto the side of the small jetty. And instead of going up the jetty they went down and they were going to go right back to Rousay again. And another instance of that was well this was not so long ago when we had a loan of a barge from just a mini landing craft sort of thing where the front of it folded down. So I flipped some cattle from the farm of and right between Egilsay and Rousay just a short distance, oh maybe a quarter of a miles or thereby, and oh did the shipping perfectly well and and went home and by the time I got home the message had arrived back before me that the there were two old cattle among the younger ones that the fellow had put there just to feed up and the last we saw of them was going up over the island and that was okay we thought everything was okay. So the message was that the two old cattle was back in Rousay. They swam that strong current you know and landed back on Rousay again. Just imagine it. [speaker002:] You'd think it would be totally alien for them to go in the water like that. [Mansie Flaws:] [LAUGHTER] I know. [] But they will do it. [speaker002:] Were the cattle in Rousay and Wyre and Egilsay were they used to that kind of thing? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh no really no. Well you see Egilsay and Rousay had piers that they could land at and they were never used to be in the water. But I've seen in my time coble to ship cattle with to swim them off. At it was on a nice day it was all right. I suppose when they got in the water they enjoyed the dip. [speaker002:] What about other animals? Sheep can be very sort of skittish and excitable. [Mansie Flaws:] [LAUGHTER] Oh oh [] oh yes. There's sometimes there's a job to handle them. I've seen them taken to the sea too and er have a job to round them up. And the horses well they they're the worst to ship some were really bad and they had to be severely tied. Some use to keep pigs too but not very many in Wyre. We had a job to handle them. The screams on them more than enough. [speaker002:] What happened in in the depth of winter when it was really bad and stormy as far as supplies and things went? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh it could be stormy right enough but well the steamer might call at Rousay at that time and they would land the goods in Rousay the perishables for Wyre and when the weather abated we would get it from there. It was just about a half a mile of water to cross. [speaker002:] What happened with perishables because you said there was no power no electricity no fridges no freezers nothing. [Mansie Flaws:] Nothing no I've seen the bread coming out on a Monday morning warm and landed at from the big houses and that was before the days of the cooling of the bread. They have coolers now to take the steam away from them. And the boxes would even be warm when they landed at Wyre down in the hold of the steamer. But the bread soon turned green in this time of year and there was quite a lot of penicillin about hence. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Did folks still have girdles then or was that going out? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh yes I guess they'd girdles Oh I suppose when the hens failed the girdles were possibly thrown out. But the hens when was the hurricane there about finished them. about at their height about the hurricane time and was it fifty one I think. [speaker002:] What was it like? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh terrible. I thought I would never seen the next day. The stacks were just simply not there. It just lifted the roofing from the base of the stack and hen houses just scattered all over the place. Just hens laying here there and everywhere. I remember me gathering the hens up that night late oh about ten or eleven o'clock at night and we had our own power you see by that time. Just our own lighting plant and the hens would even come out and meet you in the dark they knew knew you were coming. And they'd come along cattle there just contented as could be and then they got their supper and we'd give them a wee while of light still to eat their supper. And the first was a twelve volt but then we came to a hundred and ten so I just strung it down along the two top wires of the fence and they were live and oh there were about six or nine hen houses attached to the fence with those wires for electricity. But the next morning there was nothing left. [speaker002:] On this night you said you'd gone up to feed them? [Mansie Flaws:] Yes. Oh well I gave them and went home and went to bed. And the wind got up in the night and pretty strong and we had a hut a twenty by twenty five foot fourteen eighteen war hut in the middle of a square and there was a shop and a storeroom besides. And there was nothing left but the base of that. Whole thing just went like a matchbox. And I got up and I was gonna tie her up like but and by gosh I thought I'd better make for the door again. And there was a lot of space between the hut and the door and the wind took me and flung me right up against the tank and I went down to the ground and crawled on me hands and knees. I didn't go out again. I remember before that the wind changed pretty suddenly from southwest to nearer west I think and I'd made a new hen house I thought indestructible. And we had sixty pullets at the point of lay in this house to be moved out from the house to a field. And we were standing on the end of the house and I thought I had nothing to tie that down with but there were concrete blocks there I had a pile of those in the corner and well it took the whole blooming thing. And minced the hens up with the blocks. [sighing] Oh [] it was terrible. And it let an old house alongside with nothing in it and hardly a door on it and that stood right alongside of that one and it must have been like a comb it just must have gone in strips the gale for that house was now twelve foot away from the other one. And why did that one stand and the blocks in in this one and the hens and everything. So that was disaster. [speaker002:] Were you married then? [Mansie Flaws:] Mhm mhm. [speaker002:] Did you have a young family as well? [Mansie Flaws:] Yes and we took the whole thing down to the kitchen for the upstairs rooms were just going like this. And when we were down in the kitchen the partition between the butt and the bairn as they called it was going like that inside of the house in the gale. And it ripped about a quarter of the roof off before it finished and the slates but er still good. Oh it lifted huge stones you know it wa it was incredible. [speaker002:] Were the bairns frightened? [Mansie Flaws:] Well some of them I suppose slept over it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] What? [] [Mansie Flaws:] Yes. But I certainly did not. And when it daylight came the next day next morning you could hardly believe it you could hardly see Rousay for the foam that the gale kick up like a thick fog. The had risen in the air and I never want to see the like again. [speaker002:] It must have done an awful lot of damage everywhere else too. [Mansie Flaws:] Oh it did that all right. And some of that hen houses blew right on the sea. Not our our owns but erm other people and they could see them the next day when the steamers went to the north isles for the er the cockerels or the hens sitting on the top of them. And they could do nothing to save them. [speaker002:] Did the steamers go the next day? [Mansie Flaws:] Well yeah the wind fell but I'm not really sure whether they went the next day or the day after that I can't remember. Oh it took some sorting out on the next morning. And you see all the crop had vanished over the night. And they had to import hay and straw and goodness knows what. [speaker002:] Did the Council have to set up some sort of emergency system? [Mansie Flaws:] Er yes I think they did but er we reckoned we lost about eight hundred and fifty pounds worth of gear. [LAUGHTER] [] fifty or sixty pound worth of that but which was nothing. [speaker002:] Were folk insured for that kind of thing then or [Mansie Flaws:] Well no really some of them were not. [speaker002:] What about livestock would they have been in at that time of year? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh yes. Oh some of the roofs sort of and that were peeled off no bother. [speaker002:] Was there any loss of life? [Mansie Flaws:] No funny to say. Had it been in the day time I'm sure there would have been lives lost for they wouldn't have stayed in to seen their stuff go under. Going for the wind.... [break in recording] [speaker002:] Thing about boats you know you were speaking about the steamer coming back and forth to Wyre, but what kind of a boat service was there local boat service. Cos if the steamer only came once a week that wouldn't have been enough. [Mansie Flaws:] Oh that was about the lot er we had. If you wanted to go to Kirkwall you had to cross to the Rousay pier and then either hire a car or walk to and get across with Tom. Erm that was in the early days Charley and Tom did the crossing there for the mails and early in nineteen fifty one no fifty five that we took over the mails. And we before that we made quite a few runs to Kirkwall with a that was a small one that we had and erm you had to get the bus from Evie of course to Kirkwall and back the same way. Back along with the back to what you would call the sea crossing er to and get on to the Rousay pier then and get a dinghy or something and row across to Wyre. [speaker002:] Did you start doing a passenger service when you got the mail contract or did you to the mail just on its own first or did you [Mansie Flaws:] [clears throat] No we did we did passengers before the mails. We used to run direct to Kirkwall via and erm it was then that the post office caught hold of us and wanted us to take on the mails. So [speaker002:] How did you work that was it er sort of round like Egilsay or did you [Mansie Flaws:] No no the first mail run we had was just merely from to Rousay to collect the Rousay mails and dump them at the Rousay pier and they were sorted in Rousay for Egilsay and Wyre besides that. And as we were coming home from Rousay pier we met the Wyre post boat coming across for the mails that we already had dumped in Rousay. And Egilsay crossed to the school just there yes. Er they crossed there to for the mails for years and years. And [speaker002:] You said you met the Wyre post boat coming back so you didn't [Mansie Flaws:] As we went back to Wyre home to Wyre we could meet the Wyre post boat coming across for the mails that we put to Rousay. They had to go and collect the mails. Well you see they had the mail er contract on Wyre long before we start. But it finally ended up that we had the whole thing Rousay Egilsay and Wyre. [speaker002:] So did you do a passenger service direct to Kirkwall calling at Egilsay and Rousay? [Mansie Flaws:] Er yes just er no really a service it was more hires than anything else. Just er for the business.... [speaker002:] Oh so that so the passenger service it it wasn't actually a a daily passenger service like it is now then? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh no no no. Well we went every day on about the mail so it was a passenger service that really started off in nineteen fifty five but we bought maybe in nineteen fifty three or fifty four. We had to run direct to Kirkwall quite a lot then. [speaker002:] When did the bus service start to then? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh it was a while after we start. Actually it not that long ago. But a few years now. [speaker002:] Well what did folk do when they got to then? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh well Bob had a mini bus that he went with and picked up the passengers. And of course he died and I think [break in recording] [speaker002:] There was no bus then? [Mansie Flaws:] No. They only thing they could do was to go walk up to walk up a road to and contact the Evie bus but it didn't come down along for years and years. And then er Tom retired and he used to run the bus long after we start the mails and then he retired and er the bus service to come down along and pick up the passengers and that was how it start. [speaker002:] There was Tom running a passenger service at the same time as you were doing the mail? [Mansie Flaws:] Mhm and he lost the mails in nineteen fifty five. He packed up the mails and er tackled the to have a go. And we were not too keen on it at that time but had been all right. [speaker002:] So are there two boats going every day then? [Mansie Flaws:] Well yes there would nearly two going every day indeed. [speaker002:] Did you take supplies and things as well then? [Mansie Flaws:] Mhm. I took our tin of bread across for donkey's years.... [speaker002:] What happened in the days before freezers I mean well like going back to this you know when folk didn't have power. Things wouldn't have kept what you would have had a totally different kind of eating habits? [Mansie Flaws:] Well I suppose more salted meat I mean more home home butching and erm making bread I suppose or the womenfolk were likely baking every day.... [speaker002:] It must be totally different now I I know that in places like Hoy that just used the freezers all the time. [Mansie Flaws:] yes mhm. Even with our [clears throat] daily transport [speaker002:] Mhm.... [Mansie Flaws:] Oh yes we yeah we use a freezer too. We took in and for and still use it. I thought plenty believe in fresh meat and that. I suppose fresh meat is better but you're only suppose to keep a certain time anyway even in the freezer. [speaker002:] What about fishing? When you were younger in Wyre, how did folk make a living? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh plenty of porridge and [LAUGHTER] milk and [] er oh there was no much money to be made I mean and there was a lot bigger population then than what it is now. [speaker002:] You said about the hens making a lot, how did how did they work that as an industry with the eggs and things how did they collect and work? [Mansie Flaws:] We had a oh nearly a dozen cases of eggs dozen sometimes for some farms. And it was a big business and tons of feeding stuff. For every ton of feeding stuff then there maybe a hundredweight now coming ashore. It was [speaker002:] What happened? [Mansie Flaws:] Well imported eggs I suppose. Irish eggs and goodness knows whatnot. Oh and there's factory farming this er big business. I guess it flawed the lot of it. [speaker002:] You could always tell a deep litter egg. [Mansie Flaws:] Oh absolutely. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It stank and it was dark orange. [Mansie Flaws:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] You could tell a broiler what they call them er fowls. That was absolutely white compared with a fully range fowl. I mean that's the meat. Oh that's just no so good. [speaker002:] There must have been a big business even when the deep litter started cos I can remember the farm next door to us working a deep litter. [Mansie Flaws:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And they had hundreds and hundreds of hens in deep litter and they seemed to be making a lot of money out of it. [Mansie Flaws:] Oh they would yes. Oh they and I guess it set a few farmers on his feet. But it didn't last. [speaker002:] What happened with the egg packing station? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh well it just packed up you know no eggs and that was that. There were two packing stations at one time. One down at here and er where was the other one or the down the road here. That was a fairly big one and I think there may have been one at Stromness too. Oh it had washing machines and goodness knows whatnot... auto [speaker002:] What's [Mansie Flaws:] automatic feeders and such likes. [speaker002:] What sort of prices did folk get for eggs then? [Mansie Flaws:] Oh I can't remember that. Mm. [speaker002:] Was it the the women's business really? [Mansie Flaws:] Well up to a point indeed but er the men would er help out I doubt. [speaker002:] I always seem to recall the women up to their elbows in freezing cold water washing. [Mansie Flaws:] Washing eggs? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Mansie Flaws:] [LAUGHTER] Oh yes. [] And plenty got this egg wash you see. And just filled a net basket of eggs and put it down in the in the water and the water flowed through it kind of. Possibly possibly with a pump I don't know. But it would be better if it did not need washing. The egg was actually the eggs would keep better washed. [speaker002:] Oh why's that then? [Mansie Flaws:] Well I think it broke the seal in the wash and er which was good get them as they were laid they were okay. Keep the nests clean but that was no good to do either so. Sometimes the hens would start eating them and break the eggs oh what a mess. [speaker002:] When they changed the deep litter did it erm I've heard folks say that it actually affected the hens that they that they went cannibal and [Mansie Flaws:] Oh yes oh they would do that all right. [clears throat] They started pecking one another and it was a job to get them stopped. [speaker002:] Yes it's funny to think of hens having feelings but I suppose being cooped up like that it did affect them. [Mansie Flaws:] Oh aye it must have done mhm. See they got on the lights so long of the day in the winter time and made them lay just like as if it'd been summer. [speaker002:] Well that was the idea of the [Mansie Flaws:] Mhm. [speaker002:] deep litter. [Mansie Flaws:] Mhm mhm. Old one old ones just used which was at the bulb in every hen house and it was free range and I think there was nothing better than that. And they would lay just when and collect them eggs that night afore the gale. It was I just heard about [tape change]

[speaker001:] Well there was men walking through the village erm to stop them for a rest. And he had this two bags of sugar you know one that was and he was gonna light his pipe and he threw us and he couldn't get off and it strangled him. [speaker002:] Are there any other stories that you know about Stronsay? [speaker001:] Well daddy's one day and he up this big flagstone and it was er topping off a grave and didn't ken what to do so he just put the flagstone back and kept on and the next time he went to he and he it up again and he took up the skull and. And he kept the backbone to it. One of to bring the backbone we've still got it. And I've got a photograph of the as well.... [speaker003:] Well er there was man walking for the south end of the island to the north end to kept something for his crops. So he was taking bucket to get it. And so he went the north end and got whatever it was he was wanting and on the way back he stopped at farm to watch. So watch them for a while and then he started dancing with them and he dance them all night and he just get in his hand. Then in the morning he thought he'd better be getting back home so he started home and when he got home he discovered it was the harvest time. And he started up in the spring and the bucket he'd been carrying had left a ridge in his hand. And me granny to help me and he was the land nobody could really find that if you came across it one nasty day well you're there and you're kind of stop there if the went away. And that's what I like.... [speaker004:] There was this story about er the wife that shared their milk with butter. So this other wife tell had to go and steal some milk for the witch's cow. And that night steals some milk and er sure enough it did come and then when the witch woken up in the morning and found out that somebody had been milking the cow she said er whoever stealing the milk will never work for six month. And er if that day that the wife. There's supposed to be a white horse that goes through the square at and er it er supposed to pay this horseman or something but I don't really ken much about it.... [speaker005:] This man came up to and he heard this chains. Every time he walked that's him come back again and every time he stopped it stopped and this happened a few times and he was very scared and he thought he had better go and see what the noise was and anything well it was just a pet sheep tangled up in its tether. [speaker002:] And are there people in class four at Stronsay school who's been looking at some of the legends. Here's Gary. Which is the story that you've been hearing about? [Gary:] Er it's called the cave. And it was an old woman was sitting knitting in when her wool went through a hole in the floor. It was supposed to have gone into a cave that goes right underneath the house... [speaker002:] Well we've come along the island of Stronsay now and at er the post office called Samson's Lane and name which has always fascinated me really and er the sub-postmaster in charge here is Dennis. The post office itself here is called Samson's Lane, that must cause a lot of interest and people must be interested in getting a post mark from here. [Dennis:] Yes we get quite a few inquiries from south and er from enthusiasts that want stamps franking with the Samson Lane stamp. And I suppose over the last twelve month we must have had as many as a dozen of such inquiries wanted their stamp franked. [speaker002:] What about the name Samson's Lane what ascertain about its origins. [Dennis:] It's always interested me the name you know. As far as I can understand Samson's Lane is from the school down to Samson's Farm and probably part of the road down to. But certainly not towards the the south end of the island. But er I can't say that I know anything more about it actually. [speaker002:] So there's no clear indication that Samson [LAUGHTER] ever lived here in that case then []? [Dennis:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] No far from it.... [speaker008:] Oh it's no been too bad at all I would say since the first of the new year it seems to be improved remarkably. It's been fairly blustery the odd day but there's frost and especially the snow that they've had down further south it seems to be helping us up here I would say and it's with the with the land work especially got the slurry and stuff of that kind. [speaker002:] And what about the the size of the farm of the byre what's the acreage of it? [speaker008:] Oh well er the size of the home place here about ninety three acre and then we've three of that well that place is for byre but that's about sixty acre, all added together. [speaker002:] And on that then er how is the actual work of the farm broken up into acreages for silage or barley or whatever? [speaker008:] Oh well we try and keep all the cows mid-fifties as far as the cows goes and we run them all home here. And then we've got the young cattle off to the two places on the other side of the island and then the third place at just last year. It's twenty two acre and we put all of that down to barley for er. And with the fifty five cows and then we buy in some cattle for byre. Usually we oh about mid-sixties or in that direction and er without it we wouldn't have done extra barley. Especially the winter time to finish them off. So it's split up more or less like that with a ninety three acre home producing the silage and keeping the cows and forty of the acre keeping the young cattle some hay off of that and then twenty two acre down to barley. [speaker002:] Well we'll go inside the buildings now and have a look er at some of the cattle indoors here. [door opening] [speaker008:] it holds forty four cows. It's two structure house twinned each side obviously in the centre feed passage and they and that's the wall. Head seems to work fairly well it's easily cleaned out easily fed and the cows come to calf we just put them in the pend and after that once they're a reasonable size we put them through into a byre and it easier to work the situation once the calves are a a fair size and pass the stage especially. [speaker002:] Would you eventually be having a sloping floor building as well? There were concerns about er that type of building at one time but er d'ya think it is quite suitable for Orkney? [speaker008:] I think it works fairly well enough. I can't say I would be just too excited about the prospects of calving goes be a bit kind of sliding each other young calf that's just newly born. Needless to say he might have a tendency to end up doing what he wouldn't want them doing amongst slurry and such like but. I think if you can calf them and then put them onto the floor I think when there are sides that they can feed for themselves more there would be nothing wrong with a floor byre at all really. [speaker002:] Well looking at the individual breeds of animals that we've got here, tell us about the basic breed line that you you keep on the farm here. [speaker008:] Well for most we try and work a Shorthorn for I think that the Shorthorn and the black bull is the true traditional cattle you know maybe and I don't believe for one minute that the the cattle would be any better if you had a lot of Limousins or something else. And I think that keeping the Orkney old fashioned cow is near to that than crossing with continental. Probably Simmental or Charolais I think that that's the secret to and cattle and our our broad that's marketable especially down [tape change]

[speaker001:] And like you just do ordinary skipping and you jump in the middle and it's H P W R. Then H P W R and if it lands on P you have to go really fast. The first person has to start skipping in the middle and everybody says H P W R and if it landed on P the next person would have to skip fast. [speaker002:] And what if it lands on any of the others? [speaker001:] You just have to do what it means like. H you can do higher hopping and P fast and R round you gotta turn around with a skipping rope and W waives. And hot chocolate. [speaker002:] What's hot chocolate? [speaker001:] Well somebody sa and they stand facing the wall and they shut their eyes and there're people at the end and they have to try and get to the other side without the other person seeing them. And them erm when everybody's been caught by the person who's at the person sat saying things like hot bananas hot milk and then when they say hot chocolate the you've got to run back. And they've got to try and catch nobody. And if nobody's caught the person who was it is it again. And we do tinker taylor. How much money they're gonna have and how much presents you're gonna get at the wedding and how many guests you're gonna get. And when the wedding's gonna be and what you're gonna wear and what you're going to go there in and how many children you're gonna have and how many years you're gonna be married. [speaker003:] And like a lot like the guests you're gonna have at the wedding and the presents and the money and the children there's just numbers. Like the children I think it's something like two four six eight two four six eight just keep going like that. [speaker002:] And what about where you're gonna live? [speaker001:] Big house little house pigsty barn.... There isn't very many soldiers that grew up at this school any more. [speaker003:] We went a trip and there was two lasses and the class Heather and and they were playing soldiers on the way back. [speaker001:] Well it was like the two soldiers and the one person just holds it the other person just tried and knock the head off. We do that at me granny's cos there's lots of soldiers there. [speaker004:] Soldiers was a game played with grass where each was armed with a stem and little head of the plant and by heading one's opponent soldier try to knock off his head. There were two kinds of soldiers. The brown headed ones were tough and could stand any amount of thrashing and the head would hang on quite a while by a mere thread. Sometimes when it got worn like that it would twine round the other soldier so that his head could be pulled off. They other kind of soldier was black with little white florets growing out from the head. The stem of this one was easily broken and often the head would fly off at the first stroke. [speaker005:] I wonder if they're counting out rhymes of our school playtimes are still remembered like. Itty pitty penny pie hoppum lorrum linkum chinkum chie. Wood stands though there by. Or another where the leader chanted, As I went through a chinese town I met a chinese lady. Players then asked, What colour was she dressed in? Whereupon the leader decided on a colour for example brown. The countdown went on then, [spelling] B R O W N [] spells brown and [spelling] O U T [] spells out. Till the one we called the donor was selected. The stems of mare's tails with their jointed stalks were disjointed to provide a little guessing game as to which joint was the broken one. The bulky leaves of ribwort planting were pulled apart to reveal the green leaf stalks. By the number of leaf stalks revealed it was discovered how many lies a friend had told that day and a long stalk indicated a big lie. For all I know these little games may have had their origins hidden in long tradition. The tinker taylor soldier game was played by plucking the parts from rye grass stems. Further lines we had were as to where future homes would be chanting, A big house a biggie house a pigsty a barn. Or with regard to the wedding plays, silk satin cotton rags or even if the offspring would be boy lass twins triplets or what these babies were to be rocked in. A cradle a ladle a pot supply your own adjective or a pen.... [recording ends]

[David:] The question that most of today's youngsters seem to ask is What was life like in Orkney when you were my age? Well looking back on it now it seems almost a life time away but it's amazing just how well you can remember those far off days. I don't think that I shall every forget the day when sugar came off the ration and at last we could make toffee. Prior to that the only way that you could get sweets was if you had the necessary ration coupons. And to this day I shall never be able to understand why so many of my generation, by the time they were in their teens, had a mouthful of dentures because it was not due to eating sweets. And despite the wartime rationing the general health of the country by the end of World War two had never been better. However the one dark shadow on our lives in those days was the alarming growth of the number of people with tuberculosis which affected the lungs. The hospitals were crammed full of the flower of Orkney's youth and many coughed and spluttered their way to an early death. However, the arrival on the scene of wonder drugs developed in Britain and America at long last conquered this disease which for decades had struck down young and old. One of the main carriers of the disease was found to be in milk and that's why today tuberculin tested dairy provide us with our daily pinta. By the nineteen fifties Kirkwall had a new power station at the P D C and already the distribution lines were radiating out from Kirkwall to bring mains electricity to the outlying areas of the mainland. But for many parts of Orkney this new service would be years away in reaching them and so the familiar thump thump thump of that diesel statomatic generator filled the air. Hundreds of these lighting plants were bought to light homes and farmsteadings in the mainland and in the islands. Agriculture was beginning to change dramatically as well and after two hurricanes which almost wiped out the flourishing egg industry many farms built more substantial hen houses out of concrete blocks and the poultry were kept inside all the time in what was known as deep litter houses. It was also discovered that egg production could be boosted by leaving lights on in the houses all night to fool the hens into thinking that it was still daylight. The biggest breakthrough in the farm came with the arrival on the scene of a small grey tractor called a Fergie and it seemed as though almost everybody had at least one and it became the jack of all trades on the farm and implements which had previously been pulled by horses had their shafts removed and couplings were made to fit them behind the tractor. And when it wasn't working on the farm a transport on the back and a bag of straw to sit on and it became the family's personal transport. A new motor car was for many a luxury that would have to wait for another day. Because already there was great interest in a new method of growing food for the farm cattle. It eliminated the need to grow acres of turnips or grain to feed the animals during the long winter months. Apparently this new method had been tried out down south and it seemed ideal for the temperamental Orkney climate because you harvested when it was green and then you put it in a pit and packed it with a tractor and then you left it until it turned black and rotted and then you cut it up in chunks and fed it to the cattle. It was called silage and to the careful Orkney farmer it seemed all too good to be true. However a few were experimenting with this newest innovation and looking around the Orkney countryside today well there's hardly a farm that doesn't have a covered silage pit or a grain silo and today the fields are full of barley and oilseed rape and a field of turnips is something of a rare sight these days. The only horrible memory of the nineteen fifties that even today makes me wince was that teaspoonful of cod liver oil followed by the concentrated orange juice that was spooned on us before leaving for the school in the morning and off you went with your flask of tea and your sandwiches in your school bag. School meals were only to begin some four years later. At break time we would all troop down to the village shop for a bottle of Garden's lemonade of a bag of what was all the rage in those days, potato crisps. None of your exotic flavours in those days and the salt I remember came in a small piece of blue paper in the bag. By the mid-nineteen fifties many Orcadians had begun the task of modernizing their homes by building new ones a process which over the past three decades seems to have gone on with ever increasing frenzy. In those days a new house was usually constructed out of wooden hut sections of which there was a plentiful supply as most of the troops stationed here in the war lived in wooden prefabricated buildings and when they left Orkney the buildings were dismantled and then sold. And even today hut sections can still be bought and despite the fact that they're forty years old the quality of the wood in them is often better than what you can buy today. Once the new house had been built is was often blocked in with a single course of concrete blocks and curiously enough today thirty five years later the modern method of building houses is to construct them all of wood and then surround them with a single course of concrete blocks. So were we in fact years ahead of our time in house building I wonder. By the end of the nineteen fifties life in Orkney had come full circle and like everyone else we had acquired a taste for the material things in life. And then on the twenty second of December nineteen fifty eight twentieth century technology arrived with the opening of the B B C television transmitter at Nether Burton in Ham and this electronic window in the world was to influence and change our lives beyond our wildest dreams.... It's quite a while now since I've bored you with a few observations about our friends the dumb animals who share their lives with us on the planet and the more you observe them the more convinced you become that they're anything but dumb. I recently had an interesting encounter with the honeybee and it only served to point out that regardless of size the degree of intelligence is quite extraordinary. One bright sunny morning recently I set about painting the front of the house with its yearly coat of white paint to smarten it up. And I decided to paint one part of the wall which had not been painted before. Unknown to me a honeybee had made a hive in this part of the wall and not long afterwards I became aware of an angry bee searching frantically for the entrance to its hive. The sudden change of colour on the wall had upset its sense of direction and it buzzed about angrily and eventually it came into the porch where I was sitting and it stayed there for a few minutes and then went outside searching the wall again for the entrance. And after failing to find it once again it came into the porch and complained loudly and so I went outside and with a paint brush I marked the entrance to the hive with three blobs of paint of a different colour and then with a piece of cardboard I guided the tiny winged creature towards the marks on the wall and it went inside. A few minutes later it emerged and flew off and then when it returned it looked at the wall and saw the marks and went inside. Ample proof indeed that it had recognized them and it realized that it was the entrance to its home. Another day I observed the antics of a sea bird who had found a small crab in one of those rock pools on the beach below the house. And after several attempts to break the shell open by picking it up and dropping it onto the rocks, well that didn't work, so the bird picked it up and then from a about a height of twenty feet it dropped it onto the rocks below. Well it must have been a tough old crab because this didn't work either. And eventually in exasperation the bird flew a short way down the beach and picked up a small stone in its beak and then it returned and it bashed the shell repeatedly until it cracked it open and it was able to get at the contents inside. So you see human beings are not the only animals capable of using tools to get at their food. Now sheep are animals that we tend to regard as being pretty stupid and most of the time they're timid creatures who will run away at the slightest sound or sight of something strange in their midst. But at lambing time they take on a total change of character and they can sometimes become very aggressive. A mother ewe with two lambs in the field behind the house one morning demonstrated her strong maternal instincts when she successful saw off a two year old steer with a series of savage head butts. Eventually this great shambling hulk of a beast turned tailed and fled. Human beings it seems are not the only animals who go in for worshipping idols. The farm cattle have their gods too and anyone who leaves a car or a tractor and trailer parked in a field of cattle can observe that when such a vehicle appears it produces the most unusual reactions amongst the herd. And that old theory that animals can't see colours is just not true because any vehicle which is black or red in colour appears to get more attention that any other. At first it will be surrounded and sniffed and if it appears friendly then a good licking follows and if this is accepted by the stranger then it's usually used for a good old scratch. And that's why you can expect to find the car in the morning with the windows all covered in saliva and the wing mirrors all bent and the chrome strips on the doors are often with tufts of cow hair. And if the stranger has pleased the local cattle they will show their gratitude by plastering the sides of the vehicle with a generous dolloping of fresh dung before they depart. A field of cattle are normally quiet docile creatures and most of the time it's fairly safe to walk through their midst and they will observe your passing with that quiet curiosity. However the one thing that you must never do is to go between a cow and her calf and I made this mistake one morning and I had to take to my heals and run. And this started a stampede amongst the rest of the herd and as I advanced down the field with them all in close pursuit I somehow managed to clear a four stranded barbed wire fence like an Olympic champion. So be warned. Like human families the animal and the bird life have a order of seniority or what they call the pecking order and usually the more dominant member of the clan is the oldest. And at Mucklehouse we have Brigadier Sydney the gander and everybody else is kept firmly in place. But like most families while father appears to be the boss more often than not it's mother who usually has the last word. This morning I observed all of them returning home in single file after their dawn patrol around the valley and as usual mother was leading the way with father in the middle keeping the unruly youngsters in hand. When they reached their favourite bathing spot in the burn below the house they began the slow decent of the steep bank. However one of the youngsters at the back in his enthusiasm to reach the water tripped and fell over the one in front and this started a chain reaction in the column and the entire orderly procession landed at the bottom in a tangle of webbed feet and flapping wings. This undignified arrival at the bathing spot started off the most dreadful family squabble and several minutes were to elapse before order was restored. The more you observe the bird and the animal life you begin to realize that they're not so dump after all and if anything they begin to look and behave more like human beings every day. [recording ends]

[Fiona:] Well yes since leaving college yes it's been predominantly figurative and I always take my subject matter from things that I've seen which have interested me for one reason or another. [Liz Davies:] Which college did you go to? [Fiona:] I went to Edinburgh College of Art. [Liz Davies:] Is it a while since you were at school here then? [Fiona:] Yes it's in fact er I left school here in nineteen seventy six so it's eleven years since I was here. But I've been back recently as a teacher so it's I've to do a quick change act from a twin-set and pearls into a beret and er smock [LAUGHTER] to become an artist []. [Liz Davies:] What sort of questions have the children been asking you? [Fiona:] Well they've been very direct and they've been having to make me think a lot about what I'm doing. They asked me first of all why I paint on paper and I'm using older to paint on. And I explained to them it's because having been unemployed [LAUGHTER] most of my [] professional life that I've always been short of money and that's what's led me to work on very cheap materials. So I explained it's mostly a practical thing. There's not the mystery around it really and I've sort of made that into one of my points about bout my work and also erm I always thought perhaps once I became wealthy and had money I would do real paintings in oil and canvass. But er I then explained to them that I realize that it doesn't actually matter and it's the quality of the image that you produce that matters and not what it's made of or on. So I try an encourage them that their images and what they chose to make pictures of are as important as my ones. [Liz Davies:] Have you ever had Arts Council grant assistance or grants from any other source? [Fiona:] No. I've had indirect help through the Arts Centre and the Traverse Gallery but I've never had funding paid to me directly in any way or prizes or anything like that. [Liz Davies:] So it's not an easy life? [Fiona:] No but I think you do I mean I manage. And in a way I'm quite glad to be outside that circuit because my existence as a an artist is in many ways more real than to be cosseted by Arts Council money.... [speaker003:] It's been good I like I really like the way she's used. I think it's really relevant to the pictures I think it's really good. And I think that Marion's it's awful sort of bold and bright and I'm not so keen on that. [Fiona:] Are you hoping to take up art after you leave school? [speaker003:] Well I did think about it but the Careers Officer advised me no cos he thought that you have to be really really good before y get in and he asked me if I thought I was really good and I said that well I was not too bad but and he said that he thought it would be better to concentrate on something else. It's quite difficult to get a job afterwards too it's quite hard to make money after you have come out of college. [Fiona:] Are you going to give it a try though? [speaker003:] I don't know made my mind up yet. [Fiona:] Jenny, what have you enjoyed about watching these two at work? [Jenny:] Well I think it's been awful interesting to see the pictures develop and like they're so rough at first and they're and more developed and they're more things in them and the colours are getting more definite and everything. [Fiona:] How much do you paint yourself apart from in school? [Jenny:] I've just sort of painted recently so I do a bit but no much. [Fiona:] Are you going to take it up? [Jenny:] No [LAUGHTER] I don't think so []. [Fiona:] Too hard a life? [Jenny:] Yes I would say so [LAUGHTER] [Fiona:] Do you like er colour work or abstract work or more figurative work, which do you like best? [Jenny:] Well I think colour's awful important so I liked in Marion's an awful lot. That was very good. [Fiona:] What what did you like about the work Lucy? [Lucy:] Erm I like Marion's because of the the colours in it but I didn't I didn't really like Fiona's because I didn't think it was vivid enough. Whereas Marion's sort of it it didn't tell a story like what erm Fiona's did but it was just it's the kind of painting I like. [Fiona:] Has it been an interesting experience then for you all seeing artists so close and at work? [speaker006:] Yes definitely [Fiona:] Would you like to have more of it? [speaker006:] Yes [Fiona:] How much has it made you think then about your own painting just watching these two hard at work? [Lucy:] Maybe I'm just a bit too careful with what I do. I don't like they've both they've worked as they've gone along and haven't been scared to put colours in and things. Whereas when I work I'm sort of too careful I think I'm too scared to do something. [Jenny:] Well I think like Lucy said it has made you think about the really. You put the paint on thick you no to be too careful and just er do what you feel like you know just what you think you should. [speaker003:] I agree with Jenny but I don't think I am too frightened to slop on paint cos you know since I've started doing pallet knife paintings cos it's really made me feel fair more confident. [Fiona:] Would you all say that? [speaker006:] Yes [speaker003:] Well I'm trying [LAUGHTER] anyway []. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Stewart how many points have you got so far? [Stewart:] Fifty. [speaker001:] Fifty? [Stewart:] Yeah. [speaker001:] How long did it take you to get that? [Stewart:] Er just about er you know two or three weeks like that. [speaker001:] What what's the most unusual thing that then you've spotted? [Stewart:] Erm not really sure about that. [speaker001:] It's in front of you the list. [Stewart:] Oh. [speaker001:] Have a look. [paper rustling] Is it the plants or the birds that are the most difficult? [Stewart:] The bird. very much plants at all. [speaker001:] Well you know something now you've got fifty points. [Stewart:] Yeah well most are birds and animals so I don't know. [speaker001:] What's what's the most recent one? [Stewart:] Erm... it's a moorhen. [speaker001:] A moorhen. [Stewart:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And what's that other one a tern stone? What does that look like? [Stewart:] Erm goes the shore sometimes and it when you see them. [speaker001:] Have you got any points in that so far? [speaker003:] Well I've got well I've not got many points. [speaker001:] What have you been doing? How many have you got? [speaker003:] Erm... something like ten points. [speaker001:] How long does it take you? H how long do you have? How long do have to get get the points? When did you start then? [Stewart:] Erm. [speaker001:] Last year? Last year this this spring? [Stewart:] Started this year. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right... [break in recording] I'll try and not to deafen you this time. Tell me about the whooper swan. [Stewart:] Few of them flying about coming along just the line of the hydro wire at the hydro wire and just saw a blue flash and get down. [speaker001:] What did you do with it? [Stewart:] Er took it up the field and took to the school then we got at it and it and bath full of feathers. [speaker001:] Then what did you do with it? [LAUGHTER] [Stewart:] We give it the cook and she cooked it. [speaker001:] What did it taste like? [Stewart:] Horrible didn't like it. [speaker001:] How many points have you got so far Carol? [Carol:] Twenty five. [speaker001:] And that's over how long? [Carol:] Erm about two or three weeks or something like that. [speaker001:] Very good. What was the rarest one so far? [Carol:] Mm... [speaker001:] You had another whooper swan I see from there. [Carol:] Yeah. We found that in the field dead. [speaker001:] And a redwing? You saw that in the garden. [Carol:] Mhm. [speaker001:] That's a rare one isn't it? What about the plants? Any of the plants so far? [Carol:] Er got lady that's all. [speaker001:] Mushrooms? [Carol:] Mushrooms yes. [speaker001:] Was that last year the mushrooms you've got October down there. And a toadstool? A yellow round head toadstool. [Carol:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Does that look the way it sounds? [Carol:] Not really. [speaker001:] Was it easy to identify them? Cos these things a lot of these things are poisonous. [Carol:] Some are difficult. [speaker001:] Ooh and you've got quite a few shells. [Carol:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Nathan? Nathan you've got a few haven't you? [Nathan:] Yeah. [speaker001:] How many? [Nathan:] Twenty seven. [speaker001:] That's good going. What's the rarest one? [Nathan:] Well I don't know. I can't find anything. [speaker001:] You're a fat lot of use aren't you? Can't find it. What think think wha what's the most interesting thing you've [Nathan:] Redwing. [speaker001:] The redwing. You saw that too. Was it the same bird? [Nathan:] What? [speaker001:] Was it the same one that Carol saw? [Nathan:] I don't know. [speaker001:] I'll just start again. Nathan you've got quite a number of points. [Nathan:] Yeah got twenty seven. [speaker001:] And that's just in the last couple of months? [Nathan:] Well about that yeah. [speaker001:] Very good. What was the rarest thing? [Nathan:] Well maybe it was er redwing but er the funniest one was a robin cos erm on November the twenty seventh some robin hit the window. Mum opened it and it flew in the house. In the morning erm we got some bread and put it on the window and came down and we caught it and put it out again. [speaker001:] And he flew away quite happily? [Nathan:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What are you hoping to get down on the list this month? [Nathan:] I don't know. I'm going to send it away and y for twenty five points on the back twenty five points you get a silver badge for a beginner and then a gold [speaker001:] Mhm. [Nathan:] badge for fifty points and then you get advance certificate for a hundred. [speaker001:] Have you got quite a few of the plants as well? [Nathan:] Well one moment let's see. [paper rustling] Plants I've got that one and that one [speaker001:] oh it's the time for violets isn't it? [Nathan:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and you've got those. Did you have a taste of the whooper swan? [Nathan:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What was it like? [Nathan:] Taste quite nice. [speaker001:] What was it like? What did it taste like? [Nathan:] I don't know. Taste a bit like duck and chicken put together. [speaker001:] Quite like like beef almost? [Nathan:] Well sort of yeah. [speaker001:] Sort of. Mhm. Well the seals you'll have plenty of seals here won't you to chose from. And the hares, lots of hares in Shapinsay this year? [Nathan:] No you don't get hares in Hoy yeah. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Nathan:] You know when you climb Hill you see lots of hares. [speaker001:] And that's where you spotted that one? [Nathan:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Do you have to go quite far away to see all these things or could you see most of them on Shapinsay? [Nathan:] Most of them on Shapinsay. [speaker001:] No hedgehogs yet? [Nathan:] Mm. [speaker001:] Have to go to North Ronaldsay for that? You couldn't fail to [LAUGHTER] find one on North Ronaldsay [].... Louise you're in charge of the can collection? [Louise:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Tell me about it. Just [Louise:] Er [speaker001:] like that. [Louise:] We got a whole teacher got a whole lot of letters for some piece all about collecting cans for getting trees and it was [paper rustling] them letters. And it and we had to collect twenty cans and then when you've collected twenty cans that is enough for one trees one tree and it is gonna be planted in Sherwood Forest and it's going to stay there for hundreds and hundreds of years. And then we're sent a whole lot of magnets so we could test out the cans were. And then Sinead Sinead's been collecting a whole lot with and everything and she's got the most. And she has a hundred and forty and he's gotten of cans for the his mum and Stewart's been getting some cans for the shop for his granddad and I've been asking for permission to go into the dump and get some for there. And erm the girls they have gotten four hundred and twenty four cans and the boys have gotten two hundred and sixty eight and altogether we're collecting nine hundred and ninety five cans with the whole school. [speaker001:] How many trees will that give you? [Louise:] Don't have a clue. [speaker001:] Quick calculation here. [LAUGHTER]... [Louise:] [whispering] Divided by how much in the school... do we know? [] I'll get something like... no [speaker001:] About twenty four trees? [Louise:] Er no er there was [LAUGHTER] a lot []. [speaker001:] A lot. [Louise:] A lot a really lot [speaker001:] Are the trees just for for Sherwood Forest? [Louise:] I think they're just going to be planted there. No they're not [LAUGHTER] no []. [speaker001:] No no no. [Louise:] No. [speaker001:] No. [Louise:] No. Don't [speaker001:] They're not the whole scheme though is for Third World countries isn't it? [Louise:] Mhm yeah. [speaker001:] And did David Bellamy have an have something to do with it? [Louise:] Yeah he had something to do with it and we're gonna have [LAUGHTER] thirty four trees []. [speaker001:] Thirty four how mu [Louise:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Thirty four point nine five isn't it? [Louise:] Seven five seven five yeah [speaker001:] Thirty four point seven five trees so far [Louise:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well done. [Louise:] And there's and erm we're doing a project on conservation and actually helping the conservation as well and erm as well cos so them up and it's and it's gey good for our own project. And we're we're well erm getting a whole of trees planted and field there cos her field is hardly ever used and we gonna be getting a whole lot of trees for that. We're going ask permission for that and that's really it. [speaker001:] So you're not going to be able to see Shapinsay school for the trees very soon? [Louise:] [LAUGHTER]. [] Erm they'll be I don't know when we getting them I think it's maybe next spring or sometime yeah.... [speaker001:] Nanette are you going to speak to me about art from junk. [Nanette:] I suppose so. Well erm made models with stones and other rubbish that we found about the place and a whole pile of had still standing. We er put a flag on the top and a sort of plant pot stuck on the top of that and then me and Sinead we made a erm we put to stones and we filled that with junk and had a aerial stuck in it. And that looked pretty funny like and it fell down a couple of days ago and maybe a pretty while afore that I dunno. And erm well we wrapped up a whole pile of paper for paper paper recycling and erm we mushed it up and the best of the stuff we put in the liquidizer and erm we put it in a tank and dyed left some stuff as it were and we dyed some other stuff green. And erm for summer then we put some here and some seaweed and it made it look kind of queer like but Mr Davis our art teacher just thought it would make it look more interesting. And erm we did driftwood sculpture some folk did monster outside the door. S er got one lone piece and it's got a piece of wedge and it's got another piece sticking up and something sticking out of that piece of branch or something sticking out of that. Looks right sight and there's chair in that room as well. And erm we collected a whole lot of colour glass and we stuck it on the window and it's a stain glass window y know? [speaker001:] It's lovely I thought it was the real thing. [Nanette:] Looks like nothing from outside though. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It looks lovely from here. [Nanette:] Yeah well that's really it I think. [speaker001:] Right. [recording ends]

[Nicky Campbell:] [music] Well good evening and welcome to Central Weekend, our audience come from Birmingham. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] Thank you. We begin with the government agency which threatens to become poll tax. When the child support agency was set up it was greeted with almost universal approval, making runaway dads pay seemed the order of the day. But an avalanche of complaints has almost overwhelmed the C S A and it comes from dads already paying out agreed sums for their kids. So what's gone wrong? Tony you've been married before, you have three children, you know want to marry Alaina there. What's stopping you? [Tony:] I was getting married till the C S A stepped in. Now I can't afford to get married. I can't afford to work and I can't afford to see my children. [Ed Doolan:] What are you paying now for your children? [Tony:] Er thirty pound a week. [Ed Doolan:] How much do they want? [Tony:] Hundred and twelve. [Ed Doolan:] Thirty to a hundred and twelve. [Tony:] Yeah. [Ed Doolan:] In one swipe? [Tony:] Yeah. [Ed Doolan:] And you can't afford to get married? [Tony:] No. [Ed Doolan:] Alaina, how does it feel for you to be told by civil servants how to conduct your life? [Alaina:] Well I actually rang them up to say, why why are you taking my wages into consideration, I didn't break up this marriage, I met him a long time afterwards an I was told by a C S A agent or clerk or whatever, that my wedding was nonessential spending. When I said I've got a wedding to pay for, they said to me, well can you think about cancelling it because it's nonessential spending, and I said [Ed Doolan:] Your wedding, hang on, your wedding was nonessential spending. You were told that? [Alaina:] Yes I was. [Ed Doolan:] Nonessential spending. [Alaina:] Mhm. [Ed Doolan:] Theresa Gorman, that's outrageous. A girl's wedding is nonessential spending. [Theresa Gorman:] In my mind while you're talking is about these three children who presumably er this gentleman's wife was supposed to be looking after on thirty pounds a week. I think that's ridiculous. He didn't tell us how much money he earns and he didn't tell us how much money he gave his wife when he was married to her and was looking after his own children. That's the kind of information which I think is relevant, not whether he wishes to get married again, that is a separate issue. [Ed Doolan:] But has a clerk got the right to tell a couple that their wedding is nonessential spending? [Theresa Gorman:] I rather think that they are concentrating on the main task which is to see that the children are properly provided for. [Alaina:] Well but you [Theresa Gorman:] What you want to do er what you want after that, including marrying again is a separate matter, his primary responsibility and I'm sure he would agree with this is to the wellbeing of those children [Alaina:] Yes but the [Theresa Gorman:] and that is what matters. [Ed Doolan:] L l l let Alaina respond er [Alaina:] In saying that, at the end of the month if we do pay this amount of money, I only earn five hundred pounds a month, that's four hundred and forty eight pounds a month. Now like I said before, I didn't break up this marriage, so this is a witch hunt against people like myself, second wives, second partners. I can't even afford to have my own children. At the end of the month with our incomings and our outgoings we're going to be in debit of fifty seven pounds a month. And that doesn't include clothes or anything else. That is just the gas bill, [Ed Doolan:] Theresa [Alaina:] the money tell me how tell me how to pay for my wedding. [Theresa Gorman:] The agency's responsibility is to see that those children are properly paid for. [Tony:] No it's not, not it's not. [speaker002:] Rubbish. [Theresa Gorman:] And out of the money it's your [Tony:] Their responsibility is is to get five hundred and fifty million pounds, that's their responsibility. [Theresa Gorman:] No no,bu but do [Ed Doolan:] Alright let me ask Lindsey. [Theresa Gorman:] But you asked me, do you believe that your wife can look after children [Alaina:] Ex-wife [Theresa Gorman:] on thirty pounds? [Tony:] I pay thirty pounds [Theresa Gorman:] Three children [Tony:] but I also I also buy school uniforms [Theresa Gorman:] three children [Tony:] I also pay for school trips, I take them out every weekend, I give them pocket money [Alaina:] Pocket money [Tony:] It costs me fifty five pounds [Theresa Gorman:] But who do you think should pay to look after your children [Tony:] Pardon? [Theresa Gorman:] if not yourself and your wife. Not on thirty pounds. [Tony:] I do look after them, I do look after them. What you're doing you're just penalizing [Alaina:] a hundred a twelve pounds let let's get it right then. So this is the fifty per cent relationship. So that's a hundred and twelve he's expected to pay. Is she taking in a hundred and twelve somewhere? Is she? No. I'm earning it for her. I'm earning it for her, that's not fair. [Ed Doolan:] Let me ask Lindsey here, Lindsey how's your marriage going? [Lindsey:] What marriage? [Ed Doolan:] Well tell me about it. [Lindsey:] It's it's not worth a marriage no more because the C S A and because of people like them sat there that think they know it all. [Ed Doolan:] Well tell us erm tell us about the payment and tell us what's happening to you and what you're gonna have to do. [Lindsey:] Well my husband'll have to leave so I'll claim income support and be as well off as his ex-wife. And if he can't manage then then it's up to him what he does. So my marriage has fallen apart because of these people sat here that think they know everything. own kids have grown up so it doesn't matter to them, just live back in days and make you spend your money the way they tell you and live how you they tell you. [Ed Doolan:] Are you two talking about splitting up? [Lindsey:] Yeah. There's no other choice. [Ed Doolan:] Or at least dissolving the marriage? [Lindsey:] Well th we'll have to split up legally and then we'll still carry on seeing one another. But he we'll have to live apart, we'll have to make us try and make our marriage work by living apart. [Ed Doolan:] Is it really as dramatic as that? [John:] It is. Because what they left me, I cannot look after my wife and support my other two kids. Plus I can't buy my kids t the first wife, I can't buy them stuff now. Christmas presents [Ed Doolan:] Sir Ivan, is this is this sort of thing defensible? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well it's very sad when people have unhappy relationships as we've had described to us. I quite agree. [speaker002:] But it wasn't [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] But why should, why should millions [John:] Everything was okay till this happened this C S A [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] why should millions of taxpayers pay for your happiness? Why should they have to pay... [speaker002:] We pay our taxes as well Why should millions of taxpayers pay for your pay rise? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] for for your wedding? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Why should the millions of taxpayers [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] This gentleman thinks that he can bring up a child on a ten pounds a week, it's nonsense. lot of money [speaker002:] you can bring them on [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] to bring up. Everybody thought he must think first about the bringing up of the children [speaker002:] That's all I think about [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] and this couple over there must think first about the children [Lindsey:] What about my children? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There is no reason why I or anybody else as taxpayers should pay five thousand million pounds that's every family in this country about three hundred pounds a year for lone parents who are not looking af being pa having the parents the father looking [speaker002:] That's just rubbish [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] after the children. [speaker002:] We're gonna have far more lone parents Ex excuse me [Ed Doolan:] Hang on for a second please. One minute. Everybody thought Sir Ivan, [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] that's where the disgrace is, that's where the disgrace is [Ed Doolan:] Sir Ivan please. [speaker002:] Nobody the Conservative we government that's implementing this Child Support Act. That's right [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There's nothing wrong with the Child Support Act. [speaker002:] Everybody thought [Ed Doolan:] Look can we do one show here we're doing two at the moment? Let's just do one. Sir Ivan. Everybody thought, please everybody thought [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Is the programme is f to hear you or to hear me? You asked me a question I gave an answer. [Ed Doolan:] It would be very it would be very considerate if you did try and answer a little bit briefer alright? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] a moment or two to answer a question not just five seconds [speaker002:] Well it's only half an hour [Ed Doolan:] everybody thought that this agency was for runaway dads. [speaker002:] Exactly. [Ed Doolan:] It appears that the dads who are already paying are the one's who are paying and nobody seems to chasing after the others. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Now that's not true. [speaker002:] Six per cent are errant fathers. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There are te [speaker002:] Six per cent are errant fathers. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Th [speaker002:] Now you tell me how that can be fair. [Ed Doolan:] Well let him answer the question. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There are two kinds of non-payers. There are those who haven't been found and they are being chased and more of them will be chased [speaker002:] Rubbish. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] two and a half thousand of them were chased and found last month alone so there are something like twenty thousand fathers who were errant and haven't been chased [speaker002:] [shouting] And what about the other eighty thousand who are paying it and you're making them pay more? [] [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And then there are thousands of other fathers who are paying ten pounds like this gentleman for a child which costs thirty or forty pounds a week to bring up. Now I hope that everybody here who has has a relationship, a marital relationship is happy. [speaker002:] If it costs thirty or forty pounds why do you only fifteen pounds on income support for them? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] But they can't expect me [speaker002:] Could you answer the question? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] or the tens of millions of other other taxpayers [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] Can I ask you please Andrew, how well has he worked out for you? [Andrew:] It isn't working out for me, I've been told I've gotta increase my payments to a hundred and one pounds fifty two a week for my two children from my previous marriage, and I've been told by Social Security that the hundred and one pound fifty two a week will take my ex-wife and her husband off income support, so I will be keeping her family and their child. Not just my children. [speaker002:] You will be keeping your children [Andrew:] I would not. [speaker002:] No that's not true. [Andrew:] No that is rubbish. I have been told by Social Security would let me er excuse me talking to me. Just wait your [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Child Support Agency does not help does not help husbands. It helps children. [Andrew:] turn, right? I was told a hundred and one pound fifty two would be to keep my two children, my ex-wife, her husband and their child, by a Social Security expert. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well they were wrong. That is not. Well they were not wrong. Because they told me that the assessment will be made by the Child Support Agency who would then pass it over to the Income Support Agency who would then take them off Income Support. [Ed Doolan:] I'm going to Councillor Lines here who's a Conservative Councillor, hang on Theresa, we have a Conservative Councillor let him answer the question. Er John it looks less defendable every time every time a real person opens their mouths John it becomes less and less defendable? [speaker002:] Well who are the ones that are moaning and groaning about it? The ones that are ac actually having to pay for their children. They're not my children, they're their children. What a load of rubbish. Now the Chi the Child Support Agency is now can I speak please? talking rubbish The Child Support Agency is probably one of the few agency organizations within this country that actually that don't know what they're doing tells people what their responsibilities are, not just what their rights are. And I am not willing and the majority of the people are no in this country are not willing to pay for other people's children Well why don't I'm sorry about the individual circumstances, I don't know about the individual circumstances No you never and my children who go to work now have grown up, I've brought them up, I don't want them paying for someone else's children. [Ed Doolan:] Sitting in front of you is a gentleman who was paying what, about a hundred pound a week sir? Er a hundred pound a week or a month, a hundred pound a month. It's almost quadrupled to three hundred and fifty a month. [Nicky Campbell:] That's right. [Ed Doolan:] How are you coping with that? [Nicky Campbell:] Er I can't. Basically I'm er going to lose my job because I can't afford to go there. Erm this is gonna cost this government a fortune because I am a Crown officer, I'm a Crown prosecutor. [speaker002:] How how many children? [Nicky Campbell:] Two by my first marriage. Erm that er that marriage failed like most of these these have, erm what I want to know is er why, when I was disposed of as you like as a useless article, why I am suddenly called upon by this government to be one hundred per cent, not fifty per cent responsible, but one hundred per cent responsible, not only for my children which I'm quite happy to do, but one hundred per cent responsible to keep my wife off of benefit and one hundred per cent responsible if she should ever want one,t for her partner. This is happening in over ten per cent of all the cases that are coming up before your agency or your government's agency, whereby a working parent so-called absent according to you, is supporting not only his children, his ex-wife, or his e if it's if it's the husband supporting [speaker002:] Mm. [Nicky Campbell:] the other way round, supporting an ex-wife and supporting a partner th as well. Just the same as Andrew here is doing. That's a fact. [Ed Doolan:] It actually sounds, it actually sounds can I put this to you, it sounds less like a Child Support Agency and more like a Treasury support agency every day doesn't it? [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] Theresa. [Theresa Gorman:] You can get a cheap clap for a remark like that. I'd like to hear what the mothers I would like to hear [Ed Doolan:] Thank you Mr, thank you [Theresa Gorman:] I would like to hear [Ed Doolan:] thank you for the cheap put-down but would you answer the question? [Theresa Gorman:] I would but I would like to hear from some of the women the mothers who have been struggling to raise children with relatively small amounts of money, whilst the husband [speaker002:] and they still are [Theresa Gorman:] has having enough opportunity to go off and make a second marriage, which I don't deny them but they must accept their responsibilities. All the [speaker002:] But the point is what are you gonna do when you get ten million [Theresa Gorman:] shouting, in this country, in this country [Ed Doolan:] Hey one at a time, one at a time I want to go to Audrey Wise in a second. [Theresa Gorman:] seventy per cent of more of fathers whose marriages broke up were not supporting their children. Either at all or [speaker002:] Yeah well you should be chasing [Theresa Gorman:] adequately and that is what the agency was set up to do to correct that situation. [Ed Doolan:] Please may I go to Audrey Wise. Audrey Wise shouldn't fathers pay their [Theresa Gorman:] It's essential that parents are responsible. [Ed Doolan:] share? Let's pick out what's been said by our Conservative M Ps. Shouldn't fathers pay their share and not exc er expect the state to provide for their children? That's what's being said. Well yes, fathers should sh er shoulder their responsibility, but don't forget No clap for that. children children are also of concern to all of us they're not just the children of the parents, we depend on those children in our old age, who will nurse us, who will look after us, it's wrong to p behave as if children are simply the personal possession of the parents, personal possession of the parents [speaker002:] Responsibility my dear, responsibility responsibility [Ed Doolan:] and if they were concerned about the children, the children would get the benefit, the Income Support is removed pound for pound, the women who bring up their children in poverty still bring up their children in poverty. And so [speaker002:] hear hear [Ed Doolan:] so all they're doing is adding more families living in poverty. [speaker002:] Quite right, quite right. Exactly. [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] I believe, I believe in two parent families, there's nobody in my family that's in this situation. But we're lucky. Are they to make er second marriages a crime? They're getting fined more for marrying again er than they would if they'd committed a crime. And not to benefit the first marriage and not to benefit any of the children. Theresa. [Theresa Gorman:] Can't can't we hear from some of the women in this audience who have benefited from this system? [Ed Doolan:] Well let's go to Kate. [Theresa Gorman:] balanced view? [Ed Doolan:] Kate you have benefited haven't you? [Tony:] Yes my h my ex-husband was paying maintenance through a court order and his maintenance payments have increased er enormously under the Child Support Agency, the reason being erm under the old court system all his debts were taken into account. Every time we went to court he would erm take out a new loan, he took out a loan to take his wife to Bermuda, that was taken into account. He took out a life insurance policy for a hundred and twelve pounds three weeks before the last court appearance. I never had any money erm that would help me to get off benefit, I was caught in the benefit trap and now I've been able to get a part time job, my husba ex-husband's paying a reasonable amount and my children are better off. I'm better off. Everyone's saying [speaker002:] How's your husband living? [Ed Doolan:] And how is your husband how is your husband coping with all that? [Tony:] Well I don't know really [speaker002:] his children by his second wife, the ones that I would like to have, this lady would like to have, what happening to them? [Tony:] Can I say please [speaker002:] Why not let the lady answer? [Ed Doolan:] L let her answer. [Tony:] My ex-husband if he can afford holidays in Bermuda I'm sure he can afford children. He's well paid. My children came second. [speaker002:] I wish I wish I could afford a holiday in Bermuda. [Tony:] Yes well my husband. [speaker002:] Scotland would do me. [Ed Doolan:] Let me ask er let me ask Robert over here now Robert, er I see here it tells me that you were separated from Alison, Alison your first wife, er let me get this microphone right, you were separated from your first wife, this is your second wife, you were separated from your first wife er and I understand it was a clean break, it was a clean break with a court settlement? [Alaina:] Yes I did. [Ed Doolan:] So what's happened now with the C S A? [Alaina:] Well the C S A have raised my er maintenance er from sixty seven pounds a month for one child to two hundred and eight pounds a month now. Erm I I I signed over I signed over a number of thousands of pounds erm n nine years ago, eight or nine years ago with regard to the matrimonial home which Alison still lives in with my son Ben today. That suited her at the time, it suited the law courts at the time who were the the adjudicators in the case. It also suited me. I started then from floor level. From nothing. Nothing, absolutely nothing. And I met my wife, present wife three months afterwards and we have worked damned hard to raise a family and a and a good family basis for two lovely children. [Ed Doolan:] Now le let me ask Alison [Alaina:] And you you people are destroying that situation by taking away from us true family values. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Alaina:] you're not only hurting me and my present wife and my two children, you are also hurting my ex-wife and my son. [Ed Doolan:] Well let me go to your ex-wife, Alison there was an amicable court settlement? [Theresa Gorman:] Oh yes. Yes. [Ed Doolan:] Why did you change it? [Theresa Gorman:] I didn't. I didn't. What happened I I had a booklet from the D S S as I get an Income Support benefit [speaker002:] You're on Income Support are you? [Theresa Gorman:] Yes I am [speaker002:] Yes. [Theresa Gorman:] yes. [Alaina:] Her choice, not mine. Her choice, we're nine years' on now. [Ed Doolan:] let it go. [Theresa Gorman:] Erm I was sent a booklet from the D S S asking for various financial details, with the instructions that if I didn't complete the booklet and send it back to them to the D S S, my benefits would stop. So obviously I sent it back pretty quickly. The next I heard was when I had a complete breakdown of Robert and Janet's income erm with the breakdown of how a new settlement was was brought about. [Ed Doolan:] Yes. [Theresa Gorman:] My argument is yes the maintenance has been increased, my Income Support hasn't been increased by a penny [Alaina:] And my son has received none of the two hundred and eight [Theresa Gorman:] nothing [Alaina:] pounds that I'm pay. He doesn't even receive any of the sixty seven pounds that I'm paying. [Ed Doolan:] So so the money you're paying is not going to your son, it's going to the Treasury is that right? I'm here, the money you're paying is going to the Treasury, not to your son? [Alaina:] Absolutely yes. [Ed Doolan:] Theresa just how do we justify that and then I want to hear from a lawyer about this. Theresa. [Theresa Gorman:] Because you see the Treasury it is who actually tries to see that other people don't have to pay for someone else's responsibilities if they're not justified. If this gentleman, if this gentleman has children which he has by his first wife, in my view and in the view of the great majority of people in this country [speaker002:] I don't think it's the majority, you're wrong there. [Theresa Gorman:] he should accept the responsibility for the cost of raising them. If his first wife cannot afford to live without benefit support from the rest of us, which is what state benefit is, the government has no money, it takes money out of other families who are struggling to bring their children up to give it to you. But your husband can afford to help you some more for the benefit agency. [Ed Doolan:] Theresa, let me go [Alaina:] that's the whole point [Ed Doolan:] Theresa [Alaina:] I've got commitments now, I've got commitments [Ed Doolan:] Russell, Russell we've had a good run. I want to go across to Susan, how can court decisions be overturned like this? [Lindsey:] Well they can. The Child Support er Act says that when a Child Support Assessment is carried out it supersedes an existing court order. Now I think that is a basic injustice that I'd like to hear you two address. [speaker002:] Mm. [Lindsey:] What do you say to the fathers, and I have had dozens from up and down the country contacting me, what do you say to the fathers like that chap over there in th in the front row, who has handed over sometimes tens of thousands of pounds, he's done his bit, he's had it rubber stamped by the court, he's gone ahead in good faith and made his his his future, and then the Child Support Agency comes along and just without so much as a by your leave pulls the rug. Don't you think that's a basic injustice? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] I can say that er that gentleman has been misled by his lawyers who called the arrangement who called the arrangement a clean break. [Theresa Gorman:] But nine years ago they didn't know. [Lindsey:] But don't you think it would be fair [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Now a spouse can make a clean break agreement with a spouse, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] er and that agreement is to look after the spouse, there is never and there has never been in our law, and there isn't now, a clean break as far as children are concerned. [Lindsey:] But don't you think it would be fair [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] As children grow up they they become more expensive, as children as children [Lindsey:] Don't you think it would be fair [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] the costs which the father has to pay rise and our law says that [speaker002:] Yeah. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] there is no clean break as far as children are concerned. [Lindsey:] But don't you think it would be fair [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And for anybody to have told that gentleman that it was a clean break agreement [speaker002:] No [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] and that would look after children for ever [Ed Doolan:] Le let Susan come in [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] is nonsense. I don't see why [speaker002:] Excuse me [Ed Doolan:] Right well let's not do a filibuster let I le let Susan come in. [Lindsey:] Don't you think it would [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] You were asking a question [Ed Doolan:] Yes I know but you we Susan please. [Lindsey:] Don't you think it would be fair if the assessment which the Child Support Agency carries out, took into account at the very least the fact that capital settlements have been made. Don't you think that they should at least nod in the direction? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] N not at all, because the capital settlement [Lindsey:] Not at all? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] is nothing to do with the child. Its a capital settlement, it's an arrangement with the spouse. No [Lindsey:] Of course it is, it puts a roof over the child's head. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] not at all. [Lindsey:] What do you mean not at all of course it does. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And if that gentleman wants to go off and have and and marry again and raise more children he should still not leave his [Lindsey:] What do you mean it's s wha what do you mean not at all? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] first wife on Income Support for tax payers [Lindsey:] Aren't there other way [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] some of whom who are not very wealthy people, there are an awful lot of taxpayers who [speaker002:] Thanks to you [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] would like some of the benefits [Lindsey:] It [Ed Doolan:] We have a man, we have a man in the audience [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] and they've got no right to do it [Ed Doolan:] we have a man in the audience, Gary, where are you Gary, give me a wave, Gary was actually told to default on his mortgage and pay up. Default on his mortgage, he was told that by an officer. [John:] That's right. Yeah. Th they told me to default on the mortgage that I'm paying for the property that my wife lives in, because the assessment doesn't take into account that I [speaker002:] That's right. [John:] already pay four hundred pounds a month to my wife [speaker002:] Yes you only g [John:] they expect me to pay another three hundred pounds a month out of seven hundred and twenty pounds net income, leaving me with twenty pounds a month to live on. [speaker002:] You only get an allowance for the house you're living in. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Audrey can I ask you Audrey can I can I just ask you to make this point about this. Why on earth should people here who do not have families pay for people who do have families? [Ed Doolan:] Because children are the future for all of us. And it's and it's [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well then shouldn't fathers think about it before they produce the children? [Ed Doolan:] You would think you would think from this that Tory MPs were all paragons of virtue. And they're not, they're not [speaker002:] [clapping] [Ed Doolan:] But the point is what we're being told is effectively that only the rich can have second marriages, that's what this Child Support Act brings about. Only the rich not the poor, they're increasing poverty and if it was anything to do with children and if it was reasonable, they would take into account things like the water rates, legal aid, cost of access. I can tell you of er of a man who's been told that he should see his children less [speaker002:] Mm. [Ed Doolan:] because he won't be able to afford the access so the Child Support Officer said see them less. [speaker002:] They don't want you to see your children. [Ed Doolan:] Theresa are we not are we not missing out with this legislation are we not missing out on a little thing called compassion? [Theresa Gorman:] You see if you're [Ed Doolan:] Let her talk. [Theresa Gorman:] if you're a member of parliament [Ed Doolan:] Let her talk. [Theresa Gorman:] the kind of people that come to my surgery are genuinely and almost entirely women who are struggling to keep their children [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] That's right [Theresa Gorman:] because their husbands have made these settlements, often at very emotional times when the women were not really in a position to really make sure they and they come to MPs like me to try and find some way of helping themselves out of the dilemma. Usually what they come for is, can you have my children looked after [speaker002:] right [Theresa Gorman:] in some way so I can go to work. [speaker002:] Yes why don't you [Ed Doolan:] Theresa, can I ask can I ask can I ask Susan Susan [Theresa Gorman:] and that strain should not be put on them. [Ed Doolan:] Can we talk a little bit about numbers. [Lindsey:] Mm. [Ed Doolan:] How many cases do you as one barrister have to deal with at the moment? [Lindsey:] I have had dozens of people from up and down the country getting in touch with me. It's just astonishing. And that represents not one family but two family each one represents a number of children, the misery that this is causing absolutely immense. [speaker002:] but the misery which stirred this act was also immense and it was quiet and covered up because these women had nowhere to turn to before and they struggled I think it would be I don't think there would be trouble [Ed Doolan:] Can we make, can we just please make make a final point. This was really sold to us. This was sold to us, please, this was sold to us on the basis that it was going to bring in the baddies and sort out the baddies, and we'd all live happily ever after. It was sold to us on a false premise. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ed Doolan:] Because it's not the baddies we're getting at we're getting at a lot of the goodies and we're hurting them. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Yes but you're getting at a you're going to get a lot of the baddies who've missed it, you are getting a lot of the baddies now, [speaker002:] sh sh [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] lot of the people who are complaining here are people who are complaining that their an assessment has been made which was very much lower than is necessary for bringing up children. This was an act of parliament, you'd never think [speaker002:] twenty per cent [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] so from Audrey Wise but it was an act of parliament which had the support the Labour Party as well because the purpose of it is is to help wives to help mothers [speaker002:] Yes except you didn't, except parliament didn't see half of the effects of it Thatcher [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] who have been receiving underpayments from their husbands when the courts maintenance agreements. [Ed Doolan:] Would you have the courtesy to let him finish. Sorry. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And I agree with Theresa, all of my surgery cases in this matter have been from wives saying, I cannot live on the maintenance which my husband is not paying me [speaker002:] I don't believe you, I don't believe you. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] he is breaking the court orders, [speaker002:] I don't believe you. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] the amount of money I'm getting is inadequate, I'm not getting it made up in Income Support, please help. And that's why we brought in the Child Support Agency with the support of the Labour Party. [speaker002:] You must be the only MP in the country that hasn't had fathers coming to you. Excuse me. [Ed Doolan:] Susan. [speaker002:] Fascist. [LAUGHTER] [Lindsey:] I think, I think the problem with this act in my view is that it would've been one thing to say to people, right from here on in, we're going to do it like this. But where the uproar has come from is from people who have thought that they had got binding court agreements. If you're gonna do something radical and change the way that we're going to look after children you've got to take the people with you. [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] never had binding, never had binding court agreements because mothers could always go back to court and say this fifteen pounds isn't enough. I'm now having to to buy more uniform for my child and so there was never a binding court order. [Lindsey:] But don't you think that th don't you think that the fact that the father, I'm speaking don't you think that the fact that the father has made a capital settlement [Theresa Gorman:] But Susan the people that that the people that are coming to you now [Lindsey:] that he's [Ed Doolan:] If we don't go one at a time nobody'll be heard. Now finish what you're saying. [Lindsey:] Don't you think that the fact that the father has made a capital settlement, that he has sometimes to travel to the other end of the country to see his child, don't you think that should be taken into account. Don't you think children [Ed Doolan:] Theresa, briefly, let her answer it Theresa briefly. [Lindsey:] need more than money? [Theresa Gorman:] Hard cases do make bad law. But we had the situation where seventy per cent of not just fathers who were unemployed but fathers that were well off were not adequately and in some cases not supporting. [Lindsey:] That's an enforcement not an assessment. [Theresa Gorman:] Seventy per cent of all women on their [Ed Doolan:] Theresa, the Prime Minister has promised [Theresa Gorman:] own were not receiving support from their spouses. [Ed Doolan:] The Prime Minister has promised a review of this. The Prime Minister has promised a review. [Theresa Gorman:] Yes, yes. [Ed Doolan:] Is it going to make a difference, is it going to change what is essentially not a particularly satisfactory law? [Theresa Gorman:] Well I think what we want to do is to find out the truth from the hype and the emotion, that is what we want to establish and I'm sure we will correct it if there is any injustice. [speaker002:] Can I just ask a question here? [Theresa Gorman:] But all of the injustice until now has been with women inadequately supported and husbands [speaker002:] and the inadequate levels of support [Theresa Gorman:] and husbands who relied on the state to take over [speaker002:] Can I just say something to you? [Theresa Gorman:] responsibility. [Ed Doolan:] Let us see Theresa I'm going to have to stop you and I'm going to have stop you as well Sue and can I say that we're going to need to wait and see what the Prime Minister has to say. Can I thank you most sincerely, it's been a very emotive debate, a lot of people feel very strongly about this and of course they do, it affects their lives, their children, their existence, their relationships. [speaker002:] And their pockets. [Ed Doolan:] But can I thank you all for taking part, thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] Right well here are the phone calls, you'll be interested in these, er Ann from Birmingham says, my husband pays nothing but the Child Support Agency didn't want to know. Tony from Ladywood says the M Ps' pay rise should be classed as nonessential spending. Stewart from Tamworth says I'm on the dole and have to pay maintenance, Prince Charles should be doing the same. Mrs from Darlaston says, they are victimizing the men who are working erm need to chase those men who are doing nothing for their families. Paul from Tamworth says er I'm a single man looking after my children and I don't get a penny from my ex-wife. Stewart from Sparbrook says the C S A are men haters who try to get as much as possible out of them. Other ones here, an anonymous call from Birmingham, I have been beaten up weekly by my ex-husband because he's been told to pay more. And finally er a Shropshire caller says, if you have children then you should pay for them, not the state. So a range of views there. But still to come, should men wear wigs? Are they worth it? Can you spot the old Irish jigs a mile off? Should there, should men get hung up about their hair loss? Well here's one man who is very definitely erm upside down about the whole thing, if I can just er tip him over a little bit there, could you, no I'll try that one again will I [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicky Campbell:] it's er a a very delicate er gravitational exercise [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicky Campbell:] and this man, would you believe it, this man was er one of Britain's greatest ever Olympic athletes, gold medal winner for the U K, David Wilkie in the Montreal Olympic Games, ladies and gentlemen [speaker002:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] If I can er I can just sneak in he won some gold medal for Scotland as well but we'll just er [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] But of course [Nicky Campbell:] of course David what on earth are you doing? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well I'm hanging down like this to increase the circulation to my head [Nicky Campbell:] [LAUGHTER] [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] to hopefully er grow my hair back. [Nicky Campbell:] Are you raving bonkers or what? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well one could say that yes. [Nicky Campbell:] B er seriously is it working? [Sir Ivan Lawrence:] It is working, my hair is beginning to grow back and er I'm a happy man. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicky Campbell:] Right well let's er have your friend on who's er David. David, erm now I know [clears throat] your treatment er encompasses a range of things, and hanging upside down is er is is one, one particular treatment here now for curing baldness. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicky Campbell:] Does it work? [Andrew:] it does work. It's part of a programme it [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] it takes [Nicky Campbell:] One one one at a time, one hair at a time even. [Andrew:] t two minutes in the morning two minutes in the evening, that all will help grow one's hair back as part of a programme. [Nicky Campbell:] If you believe that well we'll have er more on that later on. Don't miss it. That is later. But after the break, is the Army doing enough to keep the bully boy out of its ranks. Some horror stories coming up. That's next on Central Weekend. [speaker002:] [clapping] [music]

[Nicky Campbell:] [music] Welcome back. Right, this week an Army lieutenant was jailed for fifteen months after a court martial heard him plead guilty to seven charges relating to bullying and humiliating new recruits. The sentence on the Staffordshire Regiment officer is subject to confirmation but the question we're asking is how often are other recruits subject to bullying and intimidation? Brigadier, how often? [Ronnie:] Well of course I can't possibly give you any figure of how often, but bullying occasionally happens in the Army. And may I say very clearly and unequivocally at the outset, that it is abhorrent when it does happen to us because there's no place for it, quite simply because er it is counterproductive to cohesion, and cohesion is the basis for operational effectiveness, and when there is an incident of bullying then we very promptly and thoroughly investigate it, and that investigation is followed, if there's a case to be brought, by a trial of the chap that's guilty. And may I say also [Nicky Campbell:] Please do. [Ronnie:] that we're well aware of the fact that when we're doing this, of course there's usually a degree of adverse publicity. That is subordinate to the business of routing out the cancer where it occurs. [Nicky Campbell:] from you than the statement you've just made er and I think you'll be you used the word abhorrent, I think you'll be abhorred by some of the er stories you're about to hear. If I can come to you Andrew, you were in the Royal Highland Fl Fusiliers, what [Andrew:] That's correct. [Nicky Campbell:] happened to you? [Andrew:] Basically the full time I was in basic training and when I went to the Regimental the Royal Highl Fusiliers Regiment the first battalion, I was physically beaten and mentally tortured er into the same bargain. [Nicky Campbell:] Well what do you mean by mentally tortured? [Andrew:] Well they can physically do it to you with use of fists, use of hands and whatever else they've got and they can mentally do it to you like put you in jail that or all sorts of things like when I was on sick leave, they came and lifted me. [Nicky Campbell:] Right well t t tell me about the physical abuse, what sort of things were they doing to you Andrew. [Andrew:] Beat ya up. N C Os, noncommissioned officers beat ya up, and a above them as well. You get [Nicky Campbell:] So [Andrew:] in a battle camp, you're supposed to be learning how to fight in a war and basically they beat ya up, and in camp as well, it happens in camp too. [Nicky Campbell:] And did did you see th w was it widespread, did you see it happening to other people? [Andrew:] It's very widespread. Actually I witnessed a guy being raped in the Army. That was by that was by normal recruits but it still happens it, actually the the bullying goes down the line. The N C Os bully, the officers bully the N C Os, the N C Os bully the privates and the privates bully the privates. It goes down the line, all the way down the line. It's a nons it's a non [Nicky Campbell:] If you're bullied, you bully somebody else [Andrew:] Aye. [Nicky Campbell:] and so on and so on? let me just get back that was abhorrent as a word w has already been used and er should be used again by what you said, you saw s somebody being raped by two soldiers. Did you try and help that particular soldier? [Andrew:] I did, I did, I s actually put a stop to it. That's [Nicky Campbell:] So that was a brave thing to do? [Andrew:] I wouldn't say it was brave it was a normal thing to do, wasn't brave, there was nothing brave about that. Was just a normal thing to do [Nicky Campbell:] You'd expect yeah y you'd expect somebody to do that for you of course. [Andrew:] Of course I would. [Nicky Campbell:] Did you find wh when you were being bullied or when other people were being physically intimidated that other soldiers would help them or would they just stand by and let it happen? [Andrew:] Basically you'd er just stand back and ha Actually in my platoon of fifty men it happened to me more than it happened to anybody else because I came from Glasgow. Oh he's a Glasgow hard man let's get him. I came from a rough area so that's the way it worked. [Nicky Campbell:] So they find your particular weakness, your Achilles heel and th they'd go for that. Brigadier, evidently and we've heard lots and lots of these stories, and you've said you think it's the occasional example but you're doing all you can to stamp it out, but evidently the Army is a haven for bullies, sadists and rapists. [Ronnie:] Well it's not of course, that's absolute rubbish and of the cases that we'll have here tonight, each of them if they are true are very very er unfortunate indeed,an and I wouldn't condone any of them if they're true. The fact is of course that what we're seeing here is a tiny minority of people, and I could bring thousands of people here tonight who've been in the services, thousands of parents of those people who've been in the services, who would give you a very very different story. So I think we should get it in perspective. We're seeing just a few cases and I don't deny the fact that occasionally there are bullies in the Army. But there's certainly not a haven for bullies or no nor is it endemic in any way at all. [Nicky Campbell:] Well some people would claim it is endemic. Some people would actually claim that there is a culture of bullying within the military infrastructure. But let's t let's t [Andrew:] Well I would deny that [Nicky Campbell:] Well let's talk let's talk to Richard. Richard er er h these are occasional examples and they're very very rare. [Richard:] I would disagree with that. I would disagree with that a lot. [Nicky Campbell:] Well what's your experience? [Richard:] Well erm apart from my own experience erm I witnessed, I couldn't even m er name as many erm instance of bullying that went on in my regiment [cough] erm and for all different kinds of reasons you know. Erm in my regiment I was in [Nicky Campbell:] You were in the Grenadier Guards? [Richard:] I mean I was the on I was the only black guy in the regiment erm for a very long time and erm you know it didn't it doesn't matter what colour you are erm apart from my case, there was if you was erm if you were slow on your runs or you wasn't good at at cleaning your kit you would get bullied. And it was severe bullying. And it wasn't a case of just a few beatings and that [speaker005:] [cough] [Richard:] it was just disgusting stuff you know. [Nicky Campbell:] What sort of stuff? [Richard:] Well I mean there was an incidence where erm maybe a guy who didn't clean himself very often they would er a whole group of guys would find it funny to take him into the toilet erm fill a bath up with half with water, put bleach in it erm excrete in it, urinate in it and put him in hit, hit him with ba erm brushes, all kinds of stuff like that. [Nicky Campbell:] Let's let's make it clear. Are these occasional examples that you're [Richard:] They weren't occasional at all, not in my regiment, no. And this was in training as well. [Nicky Campbell:] But is this not something you just have to put up with if you join the Army? It's it's part of the toughening up process. [Richard:] No I do no, that's rubbish. I don't who said that but that's rubbish. That i it doesn't toughen you up at all. It doesn't toughen you up, it just turns you into a bag of nerves basically. [Nicky Campbell:] Aha. [Richard:] You've got two choices, you either stay and you take it or you leave. If you leave, you get caught, you get put in jail. [Nicky Campbell:] If you leave do you feel you've lost? I mean there is a school of thought that [Richard:] Yeah. [Nicky Campbell:] says if you can't take how would you be able to handle the front line. [Richard:] If you leave, if you leave let's say if you get caught and sent back then you're gonna get back you know twice as much as you had for the reason for leaving. [Nicky Campbell:] Have you learnt anything from the experience? [Richard:] Yeah I've learnt a lot basically, I've learnt erm erm [LAUGHTER] basically what sort of organization that is and those other ones I could mention as well which run along the same sort of lines erm I've learnt to look after myself [Nicky Campbell:] Has it toughened you up? [Richard:] Yeah it has. [Nicky Campbell:] So some people might say perhaps perversely that it th it has achieved its desired effect, it's toughened you up. [Richard:] I think that depends on the individual. [Nicky Campbell:] Well David Lightbown I mean er the brigadier said that these are very very occasional examples but from these stories that these gentlemen are telling us, and who are we to disbelieve them,the they make their claims, this is a very very serious problem in the Army. Perhaps some sensitivity is n needed for our young recruits, perhaps a a type of counselling is needed to help them? Would you agree with that? [David Lightbown:] No I don't. Erm I go along with the brigadier on this, I don't approve of any of the things I've heard this evening, and I don't believe that that is the normal course of action in the Army. I've been a soldier myself, I was a soldier a long long time ago and er er training was different in my day to what it is today. But I also have one of the largest training regiments in my constituency, and I see that unit erm in action a couple of times a year if if no more. Now by and large it's a tough game being a soldier. And the difference between being tough and responding rapidly to instruction and discipline and bullying is something that er you have to denote er i in this discussion tonight. [Nicky Campbell:] Right fair enough, that's er that's a very fair point but is being thrown in a bath er full of excreta, bleach and urine part of the toughening process? [David Lightbown:] No it's not it's qu it's quite disgraceful and nobody would approve of that and the co th th th th the Army if they got hold of anybody on that basis, they would court martial them immediately and they'd be very severely dealt with. [Andrew:] that yeah can I answer that [Nicky Campbell:] Andrew. [Andrew:] Now you would court martial them well I put it to the S I B [Nicky Campbell:] S I B what's that? [Andrew:] That's the Special Investigation Branch. [David Lightbown:] Special Investigation Branch. [Andrew:] All the allegations I made, all the beatings I took, I'm bleeding they investigated nothing, and what the brigadier said, the brigadier is talking nonsense. He knows that the Army is w widespread in the Army and he. It's like everything else you company commander, you tell him, he throws it out the window. He sends you away make you feel happy [Ronnie:] Do you know I've served in the Army for thirty three years and I've commanded every thing at every level in the infantry which both these gentlemen have been in, from a platoon right up now to a brig er brigade and I can honestly tell you that I haven't seen more than a couple of incidents of bullying in the whole of that time. [Andrew:] You're a commissioned officer [Richard:] The point is the point is that's that's a good point what you've said you don't see it. That's the whole point. You come at a barrack room as an officer [Ronnie:] Mm. [Richard:] or a corp it doesn't matter, [Ronnie:] Mhm. [speaker005:] You'll see it. [Richard:] with rank on your arm [Ronnie:] Yeah. [Richard:] the soldiers i that room will act a different way [Ronnie:] I I agree. [Richard:] when the door shuts [Ronnie:] I understand that. [Richard:] a different way again they will. [Ronnie:] I can understand that, I can understand that. But it's a matter leadership. And leadership in the Army is some [Richard:] Leadership has got nothing to do with it whatsoever. [Andrew:] Leadership [Richard:] It's just a case of it's just a case of a few individuals or people with rank who think they've go so much power they're gonna press people [Ronnie:] Yes I'm sorry to hear that people in rank in your particular case were involved [Richard:] Yeah well we've got a job to do if you're a soldier you've got a job to do okay, you've got a bit of training, you've got a job to do [Ronnie:] Right absolutely [Richard:] yeah you don't need no distractions, and bullying and bullying [Ronnie:] I quite agree, I quite agree [Richard:] and racism and all that, distractions [Ronnie:] I quite agree [Richard:] and if you're gonna send people to Northern Ireland and places like that you want 'em to defend the next soldier? [David Lightbown:] Well c could I just come in? [Richard:] But they do. [Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown yes David Lightbown. Andrew I'll let you back in. in a minute, in a minute. [David Lightbown:] I I certainly didn't go in in in in with a rank on my shoulder, I went in as a recruit. [speaker005:] But you said [David Lightbown:] But when I when I when I trained as recruit I trained with a lot of other er lot of other people. [Andrew:] But that was in different days, this is nineteen ni [David Lightbown:] There was no easy way out in my day you w yo y [Nicky Campbell:] One second Andrew, I'll come to you in a sec [David Lightbown:] you were fetched in and you did your National Service. Now when you did this National Service you served your country for a set period of time. I actually did three years of that that period of time in in in the Army. The majority of people that went through that service all had some recollection of things they didn't enjoy very much but they by and large thoroughly enjoyed their experience in the Army, it livened them up, it made them better men and we have got after all one of the best armies if not the best army in the world, it's got to come from [Andrew:] I don't think that's [David Lightbown:] somewhere and it has to come from the training. [Nicky Campbell:] Alright Andrew briefly briefly. Go on. [Andrew:] Basically I don't disagree with you, aye we have got the best army and I loved my I loved my time in the Army but I'm totally against the way I was treated in the Army. That doesn't there's when you're off duty it's great but when you're on duty it's different. the Army's made me a lot better person. I'm a I totally disagree [speaker005:] You had a you you you were unfortunate in the way you were treated [Andrew:] with you in the way it is run when you when I took my allegations to him because that's basically what they're saying it is I know it's no allegations [Nicky Campbell:] Let's not go into the specifics of the court case just now David Lightbown, what I want to say to you, do you think it's a case, some people might perhaps unjustifiably but they still would say that those people who are bullied are bullied because they are nonconformists and in the military one has to conform and many people [David Lightbown:] Well of course of course they do. It's what our the Army's all about. [Nicky Campbell:] So if in any way you're different, if you're black or if you're short or if in any way you're different, you're fair game for the bullies perhaps? [David Lightbown:] It's not whether you're black or white, it's not whether you're pink or green, it's how you respond to orders. And how quickly you respond to orders situations. [Nicky Campbell:] Did you not respond to orders Richard Richard? [Richard:] It's not a case of black and white did you say? [David Lightbown:] No. [Richard:] It is, it was a case it was a case with me that I was black or white and that's why that's why it hit the press like it did. [David Lightbown:] look, look you're you're you're a guy that's been through a lot. I accept that. [Richard:] Yeah, yeah. [David Lightbown:] But you survived it. And you will go on surviving it, you will turn [Richard:] why should I have to survive it? my country too you know, [David Lightbown:] I know it's your country too. And nobody no no nobody nobody is saying that you were tr [Richard:] I was told when I was in my regiment I was told my country, it wasn't my country that was what I was told. [David Lightbown:] nobody is saying that [Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown [David Lightbown:] you were treated correctly, badly treated. [Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown, David Lightbown. [Richard:] survivor [Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown one second. Now er w w with every respect, to say that he survived it is something of a crass statement, because I remember reading about him thinking isn't this country getting good that we can have a black guardsman, and I remember my own disappointment when I read that he had to leave the regiment. Let's speak to er Tim er. Now Tim er, you were a soldier now you're a social worker. We heard earlier on about this this this regimental bath I think they call it, this bath of excreta and urine and bleach and the brigadier and David Lightbown said how rare this was, er did you ever see it? [Tim:] Certainly to the extent that er Richard has experienced it, no. But it was a fairly common way of getting people who perhaps wasn't up to standard or whatever, other recruits would grab them, and as he's described take them into the bathroom, throw them into a bath filled with whatever they chose to erm [Nicky Campbell:] So it's a fairly common occurrence? [Tim:] It happened certainly two or three times during my training. [Nicky Campbell:] In your own training you saw it? [Tim:] Mhm. [Nicky Campbell:] Er the so-called regimental bath. Now there's another case here we've heard of er of racism, and I mean racism is the pretext very often for for bullying and bruta brutality and intimidation. And er er Paul your stepbrother er he died while he was with his regiment. What happened to him? [Paul:] Yes my brother er joined the Army about two years ago until he took his own life earlier on this summer. Erm he started his life er in Vietnam in the violence of Vietnam, and had therefore a lot of violence in his early life, which I think really stayed with him, but when he did join the Army, he was very proud to be doing so, and very proud to be wanting to be part of Britain and serving Britain in whatever way he could. And a I would say that actually during the early period in the Army, I think he probably gave as good as he got. I mean it was tough, life was tough for him and I know that he faced quite a lot of comments both of racist and other other things. [Nicky Campbell:] he was Vietnamese presumably the comments were of a racist nature? [Paul:] Yes er Yes that's right. And and he took quite a lot of them but in the time that [Nicky Campbell:] Name calling? [Paul:] Oh all of that, name calling and and quite a bit more. But during that time when things were going well, he managed it. I think the thing that worries me most is that later on, he didn't manage it too well, a lot of other things were going wrong in his life, and at that point the name calling continued, and the stuff that maybe wasn't so hurtful early on seemed to become very hurtful then. And my main concern and complaint is that the Army, with its its emphasis on being macho, on being strong, on being okay, doesn't allow people to have their own weaknesses and in 's case, I just wish somebody somewhere in authority had spotted that he was a lad in trouble. [Nicky Campbell:] But if you do have pe people will say if you do h have those weaknesses and if er there were times that he could was quite up to the joshing and the name calling, there were times when he wasn't, the very fact that there were times when he wasn't, doesn't that tell you that perhaps the Army wasn't the place for him? [Paul:] Well I don't know about that because I don't think that anybody stays the same all the way through their life, and I don't think there's anybody in life that's strong in every circumstance. I believe everybody at some point needs support. Now one of the problems is in the Army, that if you do need support, it's a sign of weakness, it's a sign of failure, it's almost impossible for you to get the kind of counselling and help that a lot of young lads need, and I think that a lot of young people in the Army today who maybe have got a lot of worries in their soul, and they don't have the courage at the moment or the possibility of getting that help because of the Army culture. [Nicky Campbell:] Sergeant Major, you've been in the Army for about nigh on twenty years now, do you think that a soldier has to be able to cope with that sort of taunting and name calling when he's on the streets of Belfast for example. [Alan:] When a soldier goes to Belfast, he is abused, verbally abused [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah [Alan:] on the streets, he has to react or or react in a manner that erm really when he's on there, he doesn't he doesn't react to that particular incident that's happening in front of him. He he must be taught that and he's taught that through his training. discipline. [Nicky Campbell:] Does that yeah does th that mean that if he's say h he's taunted about his race he sh he should just turn the other cheek and have a stiff upper lip? [Alan:] Yes. I do. If I was on the streets of Ireland now, and I've been there many occasions and someone said to me, look at that Welsh get there, I would just have to take it. And I do take it and I have taken it and I just get on with my job. But that's [Richard:] It's a lot easier It's a lot easier to say that. [Nicky Campbell:] Richard, Richard if you w if you were on the streets of Belfast for example goodness only knows what they would say to you, just because you're British and they'd use the pretext that you're black to to really throw horrendous insults at you. [Richard:] Let me tell you, let me tell you one incident er in Northern Ireland. Erm we was on patrol, we was going somewhere, we passed er a big factory wall, on the way back er a day later, on the wall was, go home British wog. What am I meant to do with that? [Nicky Campbell:] Did you though er feel yeah go on, brigadier. [Ronnie:] Er I'd just like to say something actually to to put this in context because this dis discussion which suggests that there's a lot of this goes on, I don't believe that an Army that's got bullying as an endemic thing would be able carry out its role in the Gulf, in the Falklands, in Bosnia now [speaker005:] That's right [Ronnie:] in the way it has done, and furthermore, every year there's a survey taken in this country, where we look across the country at the public service and we ask people in the community what they think of their public services. Year after year we come out with a satisfaction rating of over eighty per cent. Now the community doesn't feel that we're a load of bullies, the community doesn't feel that we're not doing our job properly and I think that's very very important. [Nicky Campbell:] Well Robert here a a barrister, I'll just get the microphone over here, you're a barrister and you've prosecuted quite a lot of, you've been in the army yourself and prosecuted a lot of cases, now h he says that er that the British public love the Army, but from what we're hearing tonight, there's a lot that's rotten to the core? [speaker010:] Well well can I take issue with the brigadier on one point. It's true to say that very few cases come to court martial. But it's the nature of the offence as such that if a soldier is bullied, he's unlikely if he wants to stay in the Army, to bring it to the attention of the authorities, because he know that afterwards he has then to live with the people who he's complained about. And if he does bring it to the attention of the authorities, the problem then arises that in many cases, and I've seen it in my experience, he will be dissuaded [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah. [speaker010:] from taking the matter further. That does happen. [speaker005:] How, because [Nicky Campbell:] We we heard there from R Richard and Andrew, it's a hierarchical bullying as well. [speaker010:] I I'm sure that's right, I'm sure that's right. Can I just say one thing about Andrew's point about the S I B. In my experience the S I B when they receive these sort of complaints do investigate them very thoroughly, and I'm surprised at his experience. But the problem is the lower level at that,i i i it's at the N C O level where complaints are made by soldiers and because the complaint has to be made through the regiment, then the the pressure is for the soldier to withdraw his complaint. [Nicky Campbell:] Rea really brief so how widespread is it in the Army, bullying or intimidation? [speaker010:] How how can we tell, because as an officer, and this is this is Richard's point, as an officer how do you know what goes on in the barrack room? [Andrew:] Nicky can I have a word? [Nicky Campbell:] With wa Andrew I've got somebody else to speak to. If I [Andrew:] Okay. [Nicky Campbell:] get a chance I'll come back to you. Er where's James? James. Now you're on the run from the Army at the moment? [speaker005:] Mm. [Nicky Campbell:] Er why did you run away? [speaker005:] Er mental torture, I just couldn't handle it no more. [Nicky Campbell:] What were they doing to you? [speaker005:] Er I was handcuffed to a radiator in the nude and urinated on. I was tied into a sleeping bag and hung upside down from a tree overnight. Er [Nicky Campbell:] Why did they pick on you do you think Andrew, er James? [speaker005:] My size. [Nicky Campbell:] Yeah. [speaker005:] And you know [Nicky Campbell:] Did you s did you te did you say for god's sake stop doing this to me? Did you try and stop them, did you try and make them see reason? [speaker005:] Th there was no point, the chain of command to make a complaint was blocked. There was just no way. [Nicky Campbell:] Did you see this happening to other people? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Nicky Campbell:] What sort of things were they doing to other people? [speaker005:] Erm two people back to back with their trousers round their ankles, newspaper shoved up their backside, lit in the middle, first one to move got a kicking. [Nicky Campbell:] And is this common? Or were these just a few isolated sadists? [speaker005:] Yeah, no this happens a lot. [Nicky Campbell:] Brigadier, life is er hard enough in the Army when you're being toughened up for the sort of rigours you have to face on the streets of Belfast for example that's just inhuman. [Ronnie:] I couldn't agree more, that offends decency and of course there is a distinction, a complete distinction between toughness of training and in the infantry in particular it's very tough, and bullying. But I'd just like to just go back to pick up something that the the lawyer, the barrister said. And that is that [Nicky Campbell:] Pick that up briefly then we wanna talk about James again. [Ronnie:] Very quickly. Because of course we're looking at the importance of bringing this on right from the time that a man joins as a recruit, and I realize that's when they're very vulnerable indeed, they're unfit probably, they're nervous, they're not a team yet, and we've developed all sorts of things. For example, we now brief recruits on their rights and tell them and encourage them to actually come forward with their complaints, we very carefully brief and select our N C Os, we have open days for parents, we bring parents in so that they can feel part of the set up right from the start and so that their sons join the army and they tell their other friends to make sure they do to. We've introduced Women's Royal Volunteer Service people, outside the chain of command so that young soldiers can go along and speak to them [Nicky Campbell:] And you deal yourself with new recruits and so forth as a sort of P R man, you you deal with new recruits? [Ronnie:] I personally don't deal with recruits but there's as you know there's a depot which er [Nicky Campbell:] Sure. So what are the army saying and this is where it really matters and really counts, what are the army saying to new recruits who might be going into the careers' office, army careers' office tomorrow, [Ronnie:] Mhm. [Nicky Campbell:] what are they gonna be saying to those new recruits about the dangers of bullying? [Ronnie:] They're not gonna be saying anything about the dangers of bullying in the recruiting office. [Nicky Campbell:] Well that's that's shocking. From what we've heard tonight. [Ronnie:] Well I don't think it is because you're again you're back to the line that everyone is bullying and I don't believe that everyone is bullying. [Nicky Campbell:] I I don't I don't I don't have any more time, we're just gonna have to leave it on that very er worrying note, but thanks all very much for taking part. Thank you. [speaker005:] [clapping] [Nicky Campbell:] Mm. And thank you for phoning in. Thank you Stephen from Leicestershire, he says that he has seen people tied to posts and set on fire. It's terrible. Erm anonymous, my son joined the paras five years ago and he was bullied, and another anonymous person from Rugby, my two children were in the army and though they weren't bullied they did see horrific things happening to other lads. Ian from Earlsbury, I spent fourteen years in the air force,bull bullying has always gone on but only when soldiers didn't conform. And someone who's and ex-military policeman called to say, a lot of bullying does go undetected, but i if it was left to the Royal Military Police, bullying would decrease. And Darren from Stoke on Trent was in the forces for three years and he didn't see any bullying at all. Well after the break, you can buy them, this is one of them, for as little as twenty five pounds, Elton John's been wearing something altogether more expensive at the High Court this week but [LAUGHTER] does it [] look much better? Will you see the join when you join us? And men in wigs, next. [speaker005:] [clapping] [music]

[Sue Jay:] [clapping] [music] Welcome back. All week Elton John made his various entrances and exits from the High Court, where he was honest about his addictions to drink, drugs and binge eating. He left with his head held high, but what did he have on his head? Should men fight nature with wigs and hair-weaves, or is bald best? Well with us we have some gentlemen who believe that bald is not best, [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] and [clapping] [speaker002:] We do. [Sue Jay:] some people who think that maybe they're wrong. Barbara, you wrote an article in the Times about all of this, you've been following Elton John's comings and goings in the court, what did you think [Barbara:] Ha [Sue Jay:] of his new appearance? [Barbara:] I just thought poor guy, I mean he was somebody who thought he'd overcome food addiction, drink addiction, drugs addiction and he looks like a spider. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Barbara:] I thought it was really very funny, this long straggly black hair, he looked absolutely miserable, he thought he was now spiritually calm and spiritually sane and he's got this peculiar thing on his head that makes him look so daft. Nobody's told him obviously. [Sue Jay:] Well listen, is it is it just hairpieces that look funny you've got something against, or have you got something against all sorts of things that men put on their heads? [Barbara:] We er I think I have. I mean it is if they look funny I feel that they're sadder, if you can't tell then that's you know jolly good luck I suppose except that somebody knows. They know. [speaker002:] Elton Elton looks like Ronnie Corbett in drag in that wig. [Barbara:] [clapping] [speaker002:] [clapping] [Barbara:] the funny thing is that if if you know that what you've got on your head is something acrylic, then you can't feel all that good about yourself. [Sue Jay:] Well listen, let me i let me introduce you to now who shall we pick, Tony, first of all what have you got to say to it, sitting there in your then do I call it a toupee or a wig or [Tony:] Call it what you like, call it a cat if you want, I mean I don't mind I like pussy on the head. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Tony:] It probably was I think it's actually it's been made from cubic hair er pubic hair sorry. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] Come on. [Tony:] And er I feel I've been wearing one for about twenty five years and I feel a lot better, I feel I feel as if I look good in a wig. And without one I'd [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [clapping] [Tony:] Excuse me, me [Sue Jay:] Why are you all laughing? [Tony:] Excuse me, what can you wear to improve your face? [Vince:] I wore it for one year and that [Sue Jay:] Come on Alan, Alan [Vince:] was the worst year of my life. [Barbara:] Come on come on you said you said it's the worst year of your life the w year you wear a toupee, why? [Vince:] Why, because I I felt it wasn't me. I was an artificial thing walking around, I was scared, I was scared of I wanted to see the real me, the real me. And that's me without it. [Sue Jay:] Listen listen [speaker002:] has he got artificial teeth? [clapping] Have you got your own teeth? [Vince:] Yes And they're all mine and they're real. [Sue Jay:] Lance, Lance, Lance, Lance why do you wear yours? [Lance:] Because I don't like bald heads. If you see for yourself, have a look at 'em. [Sue Jay:] Alan, alan bald is not er alan bald is not necessarily beautiful, haven't you ever thought of covering it up? [Alan:] No not really. See this man here, he he thinks he's comfortable with his wig, but he wears the jacket so we don't even get to look at his hair. [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] Actually, actually I like to you don't say much but when you say it it's nothing. [Alan:] Is there a volume control on that jacket? Turn it down a bit it's a bit loud. [Sue Jay:] Okay John why why why why do you think it's important that you should be allowed to wear a hairpiece if you want? [John:] Because I'm emotionally affected by not wearing it. All these people who are applauding, [clapping] half of them have got their own hair. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah [John:] If they didn't have their own hair they'd kn they'd know the emotional effect of hair loss. Now I I've been selling hairpieces for twenty three years so I'm probably better in a better position than anybody here to explain the emotions of men who're losing their hair. And some of those guys out there, some of them have actually committed suicide. [Barbara:] Yeah but my argument is [John:] Right? [Barbara:] that they shouldn't feel that bad [John:] Well your argument is that they shouldn't feel that bad, but they do feel that bad. [Barbara:] Well that's because somebody has told them that bald is ugly, bald isn't ugly, it's. [John:] I'm sorry my darling, bald is ugly. [Sue Jay:] Calm down guys I want to ask you is is he better with it or without it? Take it off. [speaker002:] you might not be better but you're natural. What's the difference Excuse me, excuse me do you wear false teeth? No. How many people in the audience wear false teeth? What's that got to do with it? It's exactly the same thing. [Sue Jay:] [shouting] Listen this is getting too noisy, one person at a time please. [] Sh sh. [Barbara:] I will answer if you shut up. [Sue Jay:] Hush all of you hush, one at a time. Gentleman here [speaker002:] Can I just make a point. Can I make a point. I've had a bald patch for twenty years. It's part of my character, it's who I am and I'm not gonna hide underneath any wig. My friend, if you didn't have hair at the front [Sue Jay:] Would you guys like to look at me and ask a answer a question. Why do you bother? Why not live like nature intended you to? [speaker002:] But nature didn't intend intend it. We was born with hair wasn't we? [Sue Jay:] You were born with hair. [Barbara:] We weren't though. [speaker002:] I was born with this haircut. [Sue Jay:] Okay what what do you think now you're you're you're you're a hairdresser of some standing in London, why do you think that men get so hung up about all of this kind of hair? [Deniel:] Because it's a sign of insecurity [speaker002:] Never [Deniel:] and if let me finish, if it makes them feel better if you wanna wear a wig or doughnut, you wear one, if you want to stay bald, you stay bald, but whichever way it doesn't interfere with my life, right, so if you want keep a wig on and you feel happy and you feel more of a person, erm then fine. [Sue Jay:] Why do you think it is that people need to do it? [Deniel:] Well the thing is that you know erm somebody's got no hair they think, a lot of this the problem revolve round the baldness, and er they haven't come to term with it. So they go and wear one and it makes them feel better for job interview, pulling girls er going to places you know [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] Is is does does it boil down, does it boil down to a lack of security to the fact that? One at a time. [speaker002:] Sorry. [Joshua:] Simply to a need. I mean I've had people who can't get work because they look old, right. Yes, yes, now that group have come into me and two weeks after they've worn the hairpiece they've got a job after two and half years of not finding work, so what do you say to that? [Sue Jay:] Okay. [Joshua:] It's not rubbish it's the truth. [Sue Jay:] Joshua. [Joshua:] These gentlemen here have got such big mouths it's unbelievable. I wish they'd listen to other people. I've been bald from a very early age, but I happen to be in the hairdressing industry and I travel all over the world teaching. What right does any individual have to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do? [speaker002:] [clapping] [Joshua:] Excuse me, Excuse me if you if you used your mouth as well as your brain you'd be better off, the thing is this that quite honestly nobody here has the right, do you like the way that gentleman looks? He likes the way he looks, good luck to him, he wants to wants those boots, great. These guys wanna wear wigs, they feel good with it, let 'em do it, who tells you what you gotta eat, where [Sue Jay:] Talking about talking about life here is someone we all know, here's someone we all know from That's Life. Howard. [clapping] When did you start going bald? [speaker002:] I started losing mine when I was nineteen, and er I must say in answer to that gentleman's [Sue Jay:] Yeah [speaker002:] er comment about erm the chap not getting any any work, erm I think I can attribute most of my work to the fact that I do have a bald head. [Sue Jay:] [clapping] You're in that nice kind of profession where people [speaker002:] It c it certainly hasn't been a drawback to me. [Sue Jay:] It hasn't. Tell me did it give you, did you actually just say, I mean nineteen's young [speaker002:] Yes. [Sue Jay:] to I mean did did it ever bother you? [speaker002:] Well I was a drama student at the time and I suppose erm [clapping] [Sue Jay:] Yes listen, can you just shut up, one at a time, lady there. [speaker002:] Yeah, I wanna know, right, why don't you just you know go bald you know normally, why do you have to hide it? Cos I'm happier with a hairpiece on. [Sue Jay:] Okay listen there's someone over [speaker002:] people treat me differently. Yeah but you know Women treat me differently. If a women puts her hair hands through your hair Yeah right and it falls off in the soup it doesn't fall off in the soup, it never falls off, it's only the ones you see on the advertisements that fall off. [Sue Jay:] Can can you can you run your hands [speaker002:] these never fall off [Sue Jay:] Can you run your hands through it? [speaker002:] Yes, like that, how's that, alright, alright? [Sue Jay:] Listen let me, let me come to David Wilkie. David, David we know you so I'm going [speaker002:] swim with it, do everything in it. [Sue Jay:] Ca can you stop talking. [shouting] Wait []. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] You tell 'em. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] David, why do you want to grow your hair? I I would be happier having hair, there's no doubt about that. Mm. Erm I started losing my hair at twenty nine Mm, mm. I've come to terms with it, it doesn't bother whether I've got it or not, but to be honest I'd rather have more hair than I do now. And I put it down to having a fairly bad circulation and I'm get getting my circulation back, using a product called and going on this er hair programme and my hair is beginning You're doing it for charity does it I mean is that really the bottom line or would you do you er I'm hoping it works? I'm growing hair for charity but in many respects that's probably an excuse. I'd like my hair to grow back Is it working? and it's beginning to grow back a little bit. The little hair is growing back and er that makes me a happy person. Mm. If it doesn't grow back, I've accepted that it might not, but if it grows back I'll be a very happy man. Okay th You you're the inventor of this system, or the bringer of this system to the wider public should I say, er why is it gonna work? [Barbara:] Because we know why people lose their hair. There are a number of reasons why people lose their hair, stress is a very key factor. Genetics means that one may have a propensity to lose one's hair, but [Sue Jay:] And why is why is going upside down for two minutes twice a day gonna make it grow again? [Barbara:] It's it's part of a programme, it helps get blood back to the hair fo We've all got all the hair follicles there, what we haven't got is the capillary network feeding those hair follicles. [Sue Jay:] Okay, is it is it is it going to is it going to work? [Barbara:] Well [Sue Jay:] I mean is is tho though we can see David upside down [Deniel:] Okay, erm I'm a littl I'm a little bit I'm a little bit worried about er this er exploitation of people and security because they've got no proven record and no medical evidence, if he was that good this guy will be a millionaire and people will be growing hair all the time, to put somebody on the chair, without knowing if that person's got blood pressure or heart problems, they could suffer from a s a stroke erm have er or be partially paralysed, so I I think I like to see this man here maybe in ten fifteen years time with proper proven er medical evidence. [Sue Jay:] Okay, it's quite a serious point you should answer it. [Barbara:] Yeah we have a number of doctors who are part of our distribution er set up, we have people like Brian who's busily growing his hair back, there are medical exclusions for people who can't invert so [Sue Jay:] Okay fine. Do you think it works? [speaker002:] Well I c I I've seen so many things over the year I just don't believe it until I actually see it and th literally four weeks ago, I'd just got back from Germany, went on a meeting the following morning and it's that gentleman there, Steve, and h he's got some pictures in his pocket which will prove exactly what we're talking about. Because when this guy put his head down, I just did not believe that that was [Sue Jay:] You've grown your hair doing this? [speaker002:] am growing my hair that had happened. Proof of the pudding. Seeing's believing. [Sue Jay:] we we don't happen to have the picture of you before, so I've no way of knowing, [speaker002:] I do [Sue Jay:] well I can't put it up, we do? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Sue Jay:] Okay, [speaker002:] there you go [Sue Jay:] We who can see it, who can see this picture? [speaker002:] You need some glasses as well then. [Sue Jay:] You got it? [speaker002:] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] Would you bother, editor of Penthouse here, I mean I don't know why, I don't know why I should think you know what women want, I guess you know what men want? [Tony:] I spend I spend a lot of time with them so [LAUGHTER] I [] spend a lot talking to them. [Sue Jay:] Do you do you think that women actually mind whether chaps are bald or not? [Tony:] I don'think er that women mind at all, I don't think that that people in general really take that much notice of it, I mean I personally er have no objection or would not try and dissuade these gentlemen from wearing these things, but I personally would never wear one, and one of the reasons I would never wear one is apart from maybe two cases there you can always tell, and I think the thing is that when I would feel very uncomfortable [LAUGHTER] walking down the street [] and everyo I'd feel that everyone was there going [mimicking] wig, wig [] and the other thing is, there's a young lady at the back there made a very valid point, er I spend a lot of time with a lot of girls, it's my job, I don't want one of them to run her fingers through my hair and it come away in [LAUGHTER] in her hand [] you know that's [Sue Jay:] gentleman at the back there. [speaker002:] It's it's a misconception. People don't know anything about the things that they're not talking about, you've had no experience of it, you don't know, you know of the bad hairpieces and wigs Yeah any form of hair replacement that you see down the hai down the street, this gentleman here is just anti-hair and the story whether it's your hair up there trying to grow it or whatever. Erm people that haven't experienced it don't know what they're talking about. You don't know, you've passed, you've passed you've passed [clapping] thank you, it ain't, it's my own. [clapping] you believe that I'm wearing a hairpiece so you don't know and I I speak for most I wanna answer that because, cos you were sitting over there, I assumed can I finish you were sitting there, I assumed that you did. The fact is that every other gentleman there I can tell it's a hairpiece, yours I couldn't. tell I was wearing a hairpiece? Yes of course, I knew you were wearing The point I really want to make is that if somebody can come up with a hairpiece that really looks real, I think people may consider wearing them [Lance:] John, the best kept secret in show business. [Sue Jay:] It is not. [speaker002:] [clapping]. [Lance:] Twenty five years that man has worn a hairpiece and no one ever knew. [Sue Jay:] Barbara at the end of the day, at the end of the day Lance let me ask Barbara this question, at the end of the day, everyone's been saying if th if they feel good doing it, and it gives them that much confidence and they feel great about it, whatever it looks like, why object? [Barbara:] Well you don't object, except you feel really sad for them because everybody's wig. [Lance:] feel sad for me. [Barbara:] I'll tell you what it is. You think you look like you've got hair, I think you look like you've got a wig. Now [Lance:] Look when you get as old as me you'll be I'll be glad to have a head like you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Barbara:] It's mine. [Lance:] I shan't see eighty again. [Barbara:] I don't mind. I don't mind how [Lance:] Well I want to stay out of that ruddy [Barbara:] But Lance if you won't see eighty again, if you won't see eighty again [Lance:] Look if I take my hair off I'm gonna finish up with an old girl with a bloody Zimmer frame. [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] I'll tell the secret, and he's eighty four. Don't you think that at eight at eighty four you'd be like to be chasing the girls with your wig on. Hours of endless fun for you girls out there. [clapping] His teeth come out, his hair comes off, sex by numbers. [clapping] The trouble is baldness has got the wrong [Lance:] How old are you now? [speaker002:] It's got a bad reputation, we associate it with old age, the truth is, man loses his hair because he's got too much male testosterone and he loses it because he's got a sex drive like a rampant rhino. [clapping] The truth is ladies you only have to touch a bald man and you light up like Blackpool Tower. That is the truth. [clapping] Why do you shave your head? Because I was going thin. But why did you shave it? Why did you shave it? Because I didn't want, because I didn't want people laughing at me like everyone's here laughing at you. [Sue Jay:] Gentleman in the audience who looks as though he hasn't got much on top, what did you wanna say? [speaker002:] I th I think that's just vanity why they wear it. You know he he's on about, he's on about chasing women, why wear a wig to chase women? [Sue Jay:] Another gentleman in the audience in the blue T shirt. [speaker002:] I gotta say that thousands of people wear contact lenses f through vanity and nobody complains about that, and that's more unnatural. [clapping] [Sue Jay:] Okay. Aren't you aren't you aren't you actually getting bald people a bad name. Isn't he [speaker002:] Yes. [Sue Jay:] doing more to get people to be proud of being bald than you are? [speaker002:] shaved his hair off. Now if he didn't shave his hair off and he was walking around with a rim round the side of his head I'd say maybe you're right. But he's shaved his hair off so he looks better, he thinks he looks like Yul Brynner. Right? And that's why he's done it. [Barbara:] Can I just ask you a question Sue. [Sue Jay:] Anyth anything you've heard Barbara change your mind? [Barbara:] I wanna ask you a question. I want to ask why you thi why you feel better with people knowing you're wearing a wig [speaker002:] They don't know I'm wearing a wig [Sue Jay:] Oh gentleman, gentleman up here what do you think? [speaker002:] If a person [Sue Jay:] Wait. [speaker002:] If a person wants to wear a wig and erm you know you should feel comfortable with or without a wig, doesn't really matter does it? [Sue Jay:] You don't have this problem do you? [speaker002:] Obviously not no. [clapping] [clapping] [Sue Jay:] That's great, thank you all very [LAUGHTER] much indeed, thank you []. [clapping] [speaker002:] [clapping] [Lance:] Well that's it for this week. Er let's have a look at what we've got here on our cards. The doctor who was advertising himself this is Mr from Northfield, the doctor who was advertising the cure for baldness is going bald himself, so obviously the cure isn't working. from Birmingham says hanging upside down has always been known as a cure in the Far East and it does work. Alan from Derby says, I wonder why wearing a wig is any worse than a woman wearing make-up. And Tony from Telford says, I spent years combing my hair over my bald patch, it stopped four months ago and I'm much much happier. So that's it for this week, sorry we didn't have room for our promised body building item, I've been told to work on my pecs before we get back to it and er it shouldn't take too long. Next Friday, we'll do our level best to keep er our hair on during another live edition of Central Weekend. May I wish you goodnight. Goodnight. [speaker002:] [clapping] [music]

[Eric Barnett:] Chairman appointed to E I P and to the North Yorkshire number three. Can I say that the purpose of the E I P is to examine the various issues that have been id identified for discussion. And the panel's role is to report on those issues. Er we are not required or intending to look at objections which have been submitted on other aspects of the structure plan. We are simply concerned with those issues which we will be discussing over the next erm eight days or so. The er other aspect I think erm for the purpose of those who were not at the er pre meeting, is to introduce the other panel member, and that Miss Roz who is a senior inspector, with the planning inspectorate on my right. On my left is the panel secretary Mrs Clare. And of course you will already be aware of the er program office which is outside just off the corridor. Now can I get some of the mechanics out of the way first of all before we before I ask North Yorkshire to make a start with their presentation? Firstly, I presume that those who want lunch, sandwiches here have already er taken care of their order. I would also like to add that the small meeting room which is off the corridor, opposite the program office, is ava available for you to er relax during the lunch break, and eat your sandwiches in there, rather than bring them into the hall. The other thing I would like to make sure and this applies also to the members of the public as well as those people who are participating in the discussion, could you please make sure that you have registered for the day. Er you can do that during the coffee break if you haven't already done so. now some of you will also have seen a form being circulated, asking you to agree that the recordings that are being made of the discussions, can be used as part of a research project. Certainly I was asked about this er well before the er E I P er and we agreed that there w Well certainly I agreed that I could see nothing wrong with that since it is a cl closed research project, and nothing will be divulged at all er publicly. Apart from which of course, that everything we say is being held in public session in any event. The recordings are available for you if you wish or will be available for you if you wish to er improve your memory on what has been said during the discussion periods. I must add that we will not be producing daily summaries, er I think it's a task which is a fairly daunting on and quite frankly, er they will not be produced in the sense At the end That they would not be available at the end of each day. Erm as I say, the recordings will be available if you wish to refresh your memory. They will be held during the course of the E I P here, otherwise they will be help by the county council. Now I was about to make a comment that er well most of you know who who you are and where you're sitting, er those that have already done that have turned their name tags round so we can see. Er one or two others, I would welcome that. We can identify you more readily that way. In terms of progressing or taking part in the discussion, can I suggest that if you want to come in on a particular item, you put your name board up like that, so that we can readily observe it er and equally, our friend who is looking after the microphones can make sure that the vol the volume of your microphone is turned up at the appropriate time. I don't think you wish us to tamper with the microphones at all do you? No, fine. Now if I can move on to today's session, we are going to concer concerned ourself obviously with housing land applications and primarily with matter one A. But before before I ask North Yorkshire to introduce the matter, can I put H B F on notice that I would like them to follow on from North Yorkshire, when they have made their contribution. I would also like to say that er whilst we are going to talk about the housing allocations in the sort of strategic sense, across the county first of all, there are as you will remember er the matters of some disagreements, differences of opinion on demographic issues. I raised this at the pre-meeting and asked that the various participants should have a look at those issues where they had areas of disagreement to see whether or not er they could reconcile those. And I I would like that to be touched on as well. Er by North Yorkshire. I think s the differences in some cases ar are so large that it's inescapable er that we have a discussion on. The other thing, and this is a case of where the panel bites back as it were. We have laid on the table, two tables, P S O one and P S O two. Erm and what we have done in compiling these tables and this has been done by the panel secretary, is to take from the various submissions of the participants, the various housing figures, the the various projections of likely need, of the housing requirement and the effective summary really is in P S O one, but when you look at P S O two er there's a little more detailed work gone into that. Now could I ask, if there are any erm matters on there where you have found and error and it's an error of fact, can I just stress that at this stage? Erm could you let the panel secretary know er about that this mo sometime this morning, but certainly er in time for our start of the afternoon session. But we felt the tables themselves, could provide a useful background er and in having had them compiled, they point up some rather interesting issues, which we would return to eventually. Now if I can pass on and ask Mr from North Yorkshire, who first of all is going to give you an introduction which in effect which effectively will set the context of alteration number three. And then I presume Mr you'll go on to deal with matter A one A. [Mr P Davies:] Yes that's correct Mr, er it will be brief.... Well ladies and gentlemen, at the beginning of this examination in public, it would probably be helpful to all present and participating, if the county council explained why this alteration is necessary, and the relationship of its content to regional and national guidance. Well now in case anyone present is uncertain, erm of the geography of the county, there is a plan displayed er on the board er at the back of the room which w should help er in that circumstance. The county is the largest by area in England, it borders two conurbations to the North and South, it's unique environmentally, both in its natural and built form. having two national parks, two and half areas of outstanding natural beauty, a heritage coast and a wealth of historic towns er and villages. The county council believes that North Yorkshire, the character of it, er is a national asset, but there is a view that because the county is large and relatively sparsely populated, there should be almost what appears to be an open door policy for development. We for our part are unaware of any statement of national policy that requires sparsely populated counties to be earmarked for development. Well now, the starting position today is that the North Yorkshire County Structure Plan was approved by the Secretary of State in November nineteen eighty. Together with subsequent alterations in January nineteen eighty seven and August nineteen eighty nine. I think it's fair to say that the Secretary of State has accepted that the special character of North Yorkshire, require a balance to be struck between environmental protection and development in the county. And we consider that this approach enjoys widespread support in North Yorkshire. Now district councils and National Park committees have approach in pursuit of their own plan making activities and although statutory local planning coverage in the county is still incomplete, the planning process at both county and district level, generally aims to meet the Secretary of State's wishes for North Yorkshire. As during the examination in public into the first alteration, this E I P will demonstrate again the wide measure of agreement between county and district councils. And we for our part think that this counts for a lot. As to the reasons why this alteration is necessary, the county council thinks there are three reasons, The first is to reflect the wish of government that the development planning system er is up to date, second and more practically, to provide a context for district wide development plan, and third, the urgent need to resolve the future strategic planning direction of greater York. As far as up to date development plans is concerned, this is supported by all sections of the community and need not be dwelt upon. An appropriate conte for context for district wide plans is necessary because the approved structure plan only extends to nineteen ninety six. Quite clearly the time horizon needs to be extended to allow structure plan numeric policies to provide clear guidance, not least in respect of a supply of land for housing in the county. District councils are presently making good progress on the development plans and appro and an approved alteration is clearly essential for that process. Well now the third factor, Greater York, has probably been the single most important planning issue for the county council and the Greater York districts over the past ten years. The ingredients I think we well know. A greenbelt agreed in principle by the Secretary of State but yet to be defined statutorily, a general absence of consensus on where future development in Greater York should be located, and increasing intervention by the Secretary of State on planning applications in Greater York. The county council and the five Greater York district councils began to address the issue in nineteen eighty eight and have spent five years in moving toward this examination in public. That might seem like a long time, but the issues have clearly been complex, and have been progressed as quickly as possible not least through vigourous prodding by the D O E, keen to see approval of a long term development strategy for Greater York and more importantly, a statutory definition of the York gre greenbelt. Well we think that the D O E would probably be quite pleased with the position that we reached today. During the period since nineteen eighty eight, the Greater York authorities have agreed a long term development strategy involving a new settlement contribution. This enabled progress on a York greenbelt local plan which in April nineteen ninety three completed a seven month public enquiry. The county council further accepted that an alteration to the approved structure plan was necessary to legitimize the strategy as the approved structure plan made no provision for it. That has also been progressed as concurrently as possible with the greenbelt local plan. So here we are today, almost at the end of a very long process, having experienced a wide ranging debate about the future of Greater York and numerous consultation exercises. The E I P today is probably one of the last pieces in the jigsaw. The completion of which will at long last resolve strategic planning issues in Greater York. Well of course this process pr could just as easily have been progressed through a full scale review of the structure plan rather than an alteration. As far as a full scale review of the structure plan is concerned, there is no doubt in the county council's mind, that such a full scale review would have significantly extended the process when all the players wish to see rapid progress, particularly to deal with the problems of Greater York. In nineteen ninety, the county council did consider the merits of a full scale review as against an alteration. It accepted that while there were arguments for a full scale review, the priority had to progress on an alteration which as quickly as possible, established the principle of a Greater York new settlement and progress on the greenbelt local plan. This approach was supported by the regional office of the Department of the environment. It is an alteration therefore that is t to be debated at this E I P and its coverage is relatively straightforward, though its content controversial. Policy H one provides the numeric provision for dwellings in the county after two thousand and six. Policy H two is a new policy which makes provision for a new settlement to help meet the development needs of the Greater York area. Policies I five and I twelve provide for land for employment in the period up to two thousand and six, while in the T policies, the opportunity is taken to update road schemes in the county. Finally, with the support of our district council, the dis the county council seeks to correct a serious omission of strategic planning policies for North Yorkshire, the inclusion of policy E two of a policy to control development in the countryside. All the policies have been the subject of consultation, but in the case of policy H two, we've experienced almost five years of continued discussion and debate first of all through the Greater York study and then through this alteration. The county council believes that policy H two is essential for the future of the Greater York area. The policy even has the distinction of attracting from the regional office of the Department of the Environment, in the paper to be considered at this E I P, a phrase of mild support. All these efforts do need of course to be assessed against their compliance or otherwise with national and regional guidance. The former in large part embodied in P P G, the latter in regional planning guidance for York and Humberside, yet to be issued by the Secretary of State. As far as the former is concerned, planning policy guidance, we will have different views. Certainly this alteration will ensure the strategic policy in North Yorkshire is up to date. And the alteration will address issues clearly appropria appropriate to structure plans. The the policies will be much debated, with quotes from various P P Gs, probably selective, being used by both the county council and objectors to justify their position. In any event, P P Gs are carefully drafted to ensure that few options are closed off. The county council does feel comfortable about the compliance of its alteration with national planning guidance. As far as regional planning guidance is concerned, there is none. It's quite clear, the needs of sensible planning require progress on development plans. nowhere has this been more evident than in Greater York. While P P G twelve provides for a cascade of planning policy, I suggest that only a purist would delay a resolution of the needs of Greater York, through the development plan process, in order to await regional planning guidance. In any event, the draft regional advice which has recently been the subject of consultation, does not conflict with this alteration, though Leeds and Bradford have reservations on the level of housing provision in North Yorkshire. We think the Secretary of State's present wish for ordered planning will benefit from the discussions at this E I P. There are I suspect, few organizations represented around this table, public or private, that would wish a delay in decision.... Finally panel, the county council considers that the issues raised in this alteration require early decision and not in two or three years time. It is the county council's responsibility to bring forward proposals to enable progress to be made. The county council has taken those decisions and we think they ought to be debated vigorously and following that discussion, the panel will come to its conclusion. The county council therefore commends this alteration to the panel. That's all I would like to say. [Eric Barnett:] You don't wish to pursue in slightly more detail in terms of your introduction,th the issue one A which is the is the housing provision reasonable? [Mr P Davies:] Ye Yes indeed I do. I was taking a step at a time and [Eric Barnett:] Yeah well I'm quite happy. [Mr P Davies:] Okay. [Eric Barnett:] Can I can I just say before you start [Mr P Davies:] Mhm. [Eric Barnett:] Er I should have reminded everybody at the beginning, when you wish when you start to speak, would you please introduce yourself, give your name and who you represent. So we can make absolutely certain on the recording. That's each time. Sorry Mr. [Mr P Davies:] Before we start chairman, I wonder whether we can make sure that Peter, North Yorkshire County Council, that all round the table have got the relevant North Yorkshire paperwork. And I think the documents that we have put in are N Y one,posi various positions er statements, Paper N Y two, described as population household economic activity rate projections, assumptions and methodology. N Y three is a county council commentary on the regional census study, funded by the local authorities and the D O E. N Y four is a paper entitled Housing Growth Provision. And then we miss a number erm er and move to N Y eleven which is a paper which we have put in which attempts to look at the differences between certainly between the N Y C C projections and the H B F projections. And that in fact is headed by erm a summary table erm which attempts to set down on p one piece of paper, where the differences erm erm lie. And I wonder erm we specifically er identified erm the wish to to to address that particular issue. Erm and what I would like to do, that paper was written by Mr, erm our research officer and perhaps after I've made one or two general remarks, he could give you the flavour erm of of of the difference as we as we see, if that would be acceptable to you? [Eric Barnett:] That that that's quite acceptable. [Mr P Davies:] So first... So if I Peter, North Yorkshire. If I continue then with some introductory remarks erm on policy H one a and one A, perhaps that would set the scene er for the discussion, then Mr will very briefly erm look at the differences as he sees them between the two sets erm of projections. Well policy H one addresses the number of dwellings to be provided in the county and the districts and and in in Greater York. And quite clearly there's a disagreement on the number of dwellings that the county council proposes. The this happened before, it happened in nineteen eighty seven erm on the first alteration when review er when they were a w wide range er of suggestions er made as to the appropriate level of provision. And to an extent, we ran through this same debate erm at the greenbelt local plan enquiry for two days during September er nineteen ninety two. It seems to be a relatively simple debate, there is either too much development in the views of some participants, erm or there is er too little. Others suggest that the county council er is about right. The county council would appear to be somewhere in the middle, based on the range of views that have been submitted to this E I P. At the top of the range we have the House Builders Federation with and excess of fif fifty thousand dwellings. At the bottom, we have J C with a figure in excess of thirty one thousand dwellings. The county council appear to be somewhere in the middle, er at around forty one thousand er two hundred dwellings. I think I need to say on that, that that should not be taken as the county council sitting on the fence between two opposing er extremes. The county council thinks that its proposed provision is the right approach and it's a balanced approach in line erm with Secretary of State's previously e stated wishes. The approach of the county council is based on certain principles, first of all it reflects the decision of the Secretary of State on the originally approved structure plan and particularly on the first alteration to the structure plans er in nineteen er eighty seven. And we've summarized in N Y four, paragraph twenty one to twenty seven, the main issues erm as we see them er there. And the conclusions appear to be that migration into the county needs to be modified, and secondly, that government policy was then and still is to pursue policies leading to the regeneration of urban areas e around North Yorkshire particularly West Yorkshire er and Cleveland. In Cleveland to the North, we have a deprived area er by any standard which is making valiant efforts to make provisions to retain er its own population as part of regenerating county Cleveland. In West Yorkshire to the South we have similar problems of inner city decline and there as we understand it the authorities wish to cater for their housing needs. The county council accepts the problems and is keen to do all it can to support those authorities er to North and South. But the county council does accept that trends for migration into the county are there and the county council cannot turn off the top to turn off the tap to reclu to preclude any further migration into the county. As a result, the county council accepts the need for a substantial element of development, which is the response to inward migration in the county. And around about sixty percent of the overall provision as we calculate it is to accommodate migration led development in North Yorkshire. As far as the debate with Leeds and Bradford is concerned, there are three districts adjacent to West Yorkshire, Selby, Harrogate and Craven. And the difference between us and the West Yorkshire authorities, appears to be eighteen hundred dwellings. That doesn't appear to be much erm in terms of quantity in our estimation in terms of the level of provision that Leeds and Bradford er are providing, but it would create a major problem er in North Yorkshire. At the other extreme, there are arguments for reduction in the at the other end of the spectrum there are arguments for reduction in the level er of housing provision proposed er in North Yorkshire. The county council does not accept that there should be any further reduction in the amount of housing that is proposed to be commodat accommodated in the county. The county council quite clearly accepts its regional responsibilities to accommodate a significant degree er of migration led er development. We believe to further reduce erm erm the level of migration led development in North Yorkshire er would not be in the best interest of the region as a whole and more importantly, would not be in accord with the general provisions o of the structure plan to accommodate a a significant level er of development. As we see it therefore, the county council is not turning the tap off in respect of migration led development, and it is not being e too generous. We believe that the balanced approach e of the county council e is right, it reflects the views of the Secretary of State er in nineteen eighty seven, and we think it's the appropriate way for North Yorkshire to develop, bearing in mind the clear environmental constraints er within North Yorkshire. Well chairman that gives a flavour of the documentation the various documentation that we put in. You did ask erm for us to try and help this examination by giving some indication of the differences between shall we say, the two sides of the debate. Er we put in N Y eleven which is our attempt er to identify first in a summary page, er and then in a more voluminous paper, with appendices, where the differences lie and the reasons that er that we pursue one course as opposed to another. Erm this has been prepared by Mr erm and perhaps it would be helpful if he gave you the flavour of it.... [Stuart Cowley:] Stuart, North Yorkshire. Well sir er we have as Mr has said, in N Y eleven, the commentary er of our o opinions on the situation put forward by the House Builders Federation. Whereas our own er reasoned commentary is in N Y two. Er N Y two paragraph nine er gives us the background to our approach in population projections. [clears throat] We have er framed them to take account of the most recent information available, subject to limitations that staff time limits causes. We have sir [Eric Barnett:] Excuse me Mr. Can you all hear? [speaker004:] It it shouldn't be necessary either to adjust the microphones, to switch them on or to move them actually. [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Alright carry on. [Stuart Cowley:] Wherever possible sir, we have tested the validity of the individual assumptions against alternative sources of data. Er we have looked to supplement national e information by our local knowledge specifically I might instance one er where we have made a survey of the institutions which is one source of er possible difference between er people looking at the situation locally and those from further afield. We have erred I think in several instances to try and give a margin of flexibility er I think if we'd really tried hard to follow a policy of restraint within the assumptions of this model, we could have produced even lower figures than we have. I think we've tried to err being being reasonable. So that was the general approach. Er the particular methodology we've used is a population projection model, produced by the Institute. The Housing and Population model. Er this is quite commonly accepted as er in use in many places and I think my our colleagues on the other side of the table have been using the same basic modelling methodology. It starts by taking the present population a as the population of the base year, and proceeds to age the population, er adding births and subtracting deaths to get a population in the projection years. Er it begins by subtracting the institutional population from the total population in order to get the private household population. Once the population levels are calculated in the model, the population is converted in to households using marital status and rates. And once the households are calculated, the final process is to convert the households into dwellings. And to summarize the methodology that we've used, we've set out our in the single sheet in the front of N Y eleven, various assumption areas that constitute the use of the model and our choice of the appropriate assumption for each of these areas. [clears throat] So that for instance, er starting with a base population, we've used the Registrar General's nineteen ninety one provisional estimates. Er this was because er at the time the est that the calculations were made and reported to the committee, these were the most recently available. Er other have been able to use more recently er released information,n er namely the Registrar General's nineteen ninety one final revised estimates. As you will see from the sheet, small difference in the total population. Had the county council been able to use the final figures, the dwelling requirements at the end of the projection period would have been somewhat lower than the figure that we have produced. [clears throat] The conversion of the rate of population to private household population has been accepted that er we use as everybody has used, the county council's estimate of the institutional population. So this does not appear as a technical difference. [Eric Barnett:] Sorry would you re would you repeat that. You say there is no difference of opinion on that one now. [Stuart Cowley:] On on the level of the institutional [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. [Stuart Cowley:] population. There is a difference of opinion in the effect on the number of households produced by the way that the military [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. [Stuart Cowley:] population in married quarters is treated. [Eric Barnett:] Yes I appreciate that. [Stuart Cowley:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] But you haven't highlighted that [Stuart Cowley:] I haven't highlighted that as an area of difference. [Eric Barnett:] N n no no. Cou co could I ask you and try to short circuit actually the presentation if you if you if you don't mind, to actually concentrate on those issue items where there are these significant differences which which you which you mentioned. [Stuart Cowley:] Well the largest difference er from the sheet is in the death statistics. And er we will maintain that we've used the appropriate statistics from the office of population censuses and surveys and the Registrar General's er and erm our colleagues have made an error is our opinion on er the er death statistics that they've used in their calculations of the model in our opinion. In that they have not taken the correct figures. I can't explain the reasons why. Our our figures we maintain are the correct ones. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah I mean I I would assume that [clears throat] there must be agreed death rates which everybody would accept as as as being applicable in projecting population. [Stuart Cowley:] We would have said we would have thought that too sir but er it appears that er [Eric Barnett:] Well I I think I'll wait for H B F to come back on that one. But yo the figure the the figure which you mentioned Yeah. [Stuart Cowley:] Can can I just add sir o one point I I in my in my preamble I said that we were sometimes able from a local point of view to take into account information locally that perhaps you wouldn't have got from further afield. [clears throat] Er within the model, there is the provision to er not take the date which is issued with the model, but to allow for local correction factors and it er maybe [clears throat] that we've got the locally correct death statistics in and our colleagues haven't got the local corrections. [Eric Barnett:] Well we'll we'll we'll come back to that one later one but if you just carry on talking through the various er items where there is these there are these significant differences. [Mr P Davies:] Well that is the er most significant difference sir. Er a difference has er appeared in concealed households, at three thousand. The county council maintains that er the project methodology takes account of all classes of households er within the methodology itself. And so there does not need to be a separate provision made for numbers of concealed households. Er our understanding is that er our colleagues the other side of the table wish to reduce the number of consumer households from the level it was at the nineteen ninety one census, which is the figure here, three one seven to zero. Eliminating the numbers of concealed households, and therefore the number of dwellings to be provided to cater for that. Er [clears throat] and we feel that that would be er unrealistic but within the modelling context, we don't think that it needs to be separately taken into account. There are households concealed households at the beginning of the period in our projections, there are households at the end of the period which are also concealed. This we feel matches the real world situation, where er the poor being always with us, there will always be people who while wishing to have accommodation. [clears throat] So that is an area of er significant difference. The next er most important er in terms of of erm numbers is er migration levels. H here we we have two categories of of areas of difference. There is the technical basis on the one hand, and there is a policy er er area. I think then there's a catchphrase, environmental discounts. And I think these phrases appear in the text. As far as the technical points are concerned er there is the question, which source of data should be used to quantify migration. And over how long a period should the migration be taken. [clears throat] The county council [clears throat] has used the National Health Service's central record of patient re-registrations as its principle source of for migration data and has chosen an eight year period to measure the trend. Er our colleagues I think have chosen a different period trend. I think it's a ten year period they've taken and th the er source is as much the a sort of a residual [clears throat] figure that comes from the Registrar General's mid year estimates, nineteen ninety one. As against the nineteen eighty one estimates. Deducting actual change and ending up with. We maintain that this balance not only includes migration but includes other adjustments. So the figures for migration are not necessarily purely migration figures [clears throat] and we are er we don't dispute the length of the trend to take the ten years. Ten years as it happens is not a lot different to eight years. The choice of the time period for migration is very important. [clears throat] if we had taken the most recent trend, it would have been over the last three years. This is shown er in the appendix to N Y two. Appendix five. Which is a table showing annual average migration figures for the years nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety two. Appendix five of N Y two.... There you'll see there is an eight year trend, the mean of which is just under five thousand. From which we make a deduction and I'll come back to that deduction in a moment if I may sir. If one took just the last three years, the annual average migration figure would be a little under three thousand three hundred. Had we used this three thousand three hundred figure as the annual migration, then the housing requirement figures come out of the projection rather then two thousand and six, would have been some ten thousand fewer. So the choice of the length of the trend is er very important. The source is important and er how you deal with the source. Er I mentioned that we have made an allowance for students in this migration. Er this is not to say, I must emphasize that we have discounted students in this migration assessment. What we have done is to discount excess students. Er there is a technical report that has examined this sort of information erm for the year nineteen eighty one nineteen eighty eighty one, specifically for this county. Er the research found that there were three hundred or so students who registered with the health service but didn't re-register or didn't leave. So that that was a a a fact that er [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. Does this make a significant difference to the the hous household requirement? [Stuart Cowley:] Yes One o one of the elements that goes towards the four thousand four hundred [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. [Stuart Cowley:] difference in migration. Er I don't think I couldn't at this moment in time, give you the components [Eric Barnett:] No. [Stuart Cowley:] of of which of these four thousand four hundred is d due to the time period which is due to the source which is due to the er student er excess student discount. So that is a significant er difference sir between e our calibrations of the model and others. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. [Stuart Cowley:] other differences are smaller in scale as you will see, there is a difference in er vacant dwellings, [clears throat] the county council er takes the view that er [Eric Barnett:] Yes I I I Yeah sorry to interrupt, I mean I follow the arguments you've used within the document but I... the figure which the H H B F have attributed to vacant dwellings for example is just under two [tape change] thousand five hundred. Or is this th is this an adjusted figure now? Having had the discussion between the two parties. Is it six hundred? [Stuart Cowley:] Er we have had er recent correspondence with the H B F and er my e colleague Mrs Long can give you the the detail of that. We would we would er revise the difference figure on the basis of that conversation. So d d d the the six thousand the six hundred does not really apply any more. [Eric Barnett:] Well No well I I'll I'll come back to that issue with with H B F but [Stuart Cowley:] Er but but it it is not simple as in any of these matters [clears throat] er in that the change in the vacant dwellings difference here also has a consequential figure for dwellings different at the end. Because of what the er effect is in the calculations and again we we could go into that in some detail if wanted to. [Eric Barnett:] No I'm I'm trying to avoid too much detail if I can. What I'm trying to to establish in in a fairly simplified form actually, are the areas of difference and whether some of those are still capable of being reconciled, because of the way in which you a you know the the the different parties may have made different approaches but in fact you might come to an agreement about that. But there are other ar areas where in fact you may simply agree to disagree. For various reasons. [Stuart Cowley:] Mm. Well I think [clears throat] having had a meeting with the er house builders er representatives earlier on, this table of differences now represents the differences that there are still remaining. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah right. [R Whittaker:] Before the H B F respond and I appreciate they want to respond to what Mr said. Can I say in relation to what Mr has said [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr P Davies:] . [Stuart Cowley:] Sorry I'm er [R Whittaker:] Mr has er... Our aim must be to identify what really matters. Technical experts will always disagree, erm there was a time when I too would claim to be one of them. But I'm not here to play that role. We must please be clear about those factors which actually matter, always bearing in mind that it is for the county council in the first instance and perhaps for the panel in the second instance, to take a decision about the suppression of past migration trends. In other words not to provide for a continuing level of migration as it has been in the past. In that context, it seems to me that some of the differences between the technical experts pale into insignificance and therefore do net deserve our spending any great time upon them. There are other matters however, which seem to me to be much more significant in statistical terms and in relation to the total level of provision [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [R Whittaker:] which the county propose. Can we please concentrate on those that are truly significant? Mr I hope that hasn't cleared anything of what you wanted to say. Thank you. [Roy Donson:] Right, thank you very much. Er Roy, House Builders Federation. I'll try my best to to respond to most of what we've already heard this morning. Erm, the basic stance of the er er of the federation is that we erm make use of the latest information. We regard that as being consistent with government policy, as set out in P P G twelve. But it is in our view, government policy to provide for development needs. Consistent within a framework of regional guidance. We have as Mr said already this morning, we have no regional guidance. Erm and his claim that in fact the regional draft regional guidance er that has emerged is consistent with this alteration, is not really surprising since the same parties drew up the same document. [clears throat]. So our purpose here and I would echo er what Miss has just said, is essentially to take a view about migration. That is the essential component erm which er will determine e effectively the strategic policy which will apply to this county. It's interesting that despite all that's been said about migration and I'll come back to it, but we actually start, the county and ourselves, from the same point, more or less, within about four four dwelling I think. Erm and but it's after that that we we we differ a bit. However as far as the basic strategy is concerned of this particular alteration, it includes for the first time, conversions. And that is a fundamental change to the previous strategy. And it amounts to, in effect a twelve point five percent decrease in housing provision. At a time when household formation rates suggest we should be going in the opposite direction, simply to stand still. This is a fundamental change of strategy without doubt. I don't want to hold up this alteration, and I, like Mr, don't want to wait three years for a decision. But I would say to you that such a fundamental change of strategy, would normally have its proper place in a replacement plan, rather than an alteration. So how do some of our differences come about. We have a number of technical differences which are essentially differences about the composition of the population and its natural change. And we would say that that difference amounts to sixteen hundred dwellings. We have a base dwelling difference, although in view of your remarks, that may well pale into insignificance. But nevertheless, it is a matter of fact that there is a difference of seven hundred and fifty dwellings, in the base dwellings that we've used. We do have a difference in vacancies. Er whereas the County Council have sought to re to er keep vacancies constant, we have said that it is reasonable to seek to plan to keep second homes etcetera as a constant number but what I would term normal vacancies, can be reasonably be expected to go up to maintain the same proportion. That does I think form a significant element because it makes a difference of nearly two and a half thousand dwellings. [R Whittaker:] Perhaps I could intervene and try to establish a view on vacancies, so at least we can get one element of out [Roy Donson:] Mm. [R Whittaker:] of the debate out of the way. And perhaps Miss and D O E may have a view to contribute too. But if I can put my thinking erm on the floor first, it seems to me that vacant Normal vacancies as Mr has described them, are a function of people moving from one house to another. And it seems to me there is no reason to suppose that because there are more houses, the propensity to move from one house to another declines. Perhaps before gentleman of the County Council whose name I still can't see comes in, Miss may wish to say something. [M Rees:] I think in this day and age, there is probably a greater propensity to move and consequently there may well be an increased erm amount of vacancies occurring and that was why in our statement, we actually increased the number of vacancies, but I think that is a function of the number of houses on offer at the time. [speaker004:] Mm. [R Whittaker:] H how in that context, does the County Council defend its position Mr [LAUGHTER] You're not Mrs, you're Mr [] Thank you. [Stuart Cowley:] Mr will [Malcolm Spittle:] Yes Malcolm, County Council. I think our concern is that the vacancy rate erm in the census indicates that some seven point one percent of the the properties in the county are vacant at er at that time. We are very concerned that in in making provision for housing through to the year two thousand and six, we should not be making provision for that level of vacancy rate, which seems to us to be artificially high when compared with the the national figures. And indeed we hear from the D O E that they have a figure in their paper of something like five and a half percent. The figure that we have come up with in fact is derived by holding constant the numbers rather than the rate of vacant dwellings through to the year two thousand and six, which implies that by the year two thousand six, we'd have would have a vacancy rate of six point two percent or or thereabouts. Which is still substantially higher than the national figure, and substantially higher than the figure being proposed by the Department of the Environment for North Yorkshire. [R Whittaker:] Can you split that six point two percent between the the second homes etcetera and the normal vacancies? [Malcolm Spittle:] Erm I don't have the figures off hand but I er we could provide those figures. [R Whittaker:] Because it presupposes, if one a assumes that the second homes etcetera remain constant. It presupposes a reduction in the rate of normal vacancies. [Malcolm Spittle:] I I th would prefer to look at the vacant dwellings as a single entity rather than necessarily splitting them down between the the the various types. [R Whittaker:] My question still remains the same then. Does it not presuppose a reduction in the rate of all vacancies? [Malcolm Spittle:] That's right, yes, from seven point one to six point two percent over the period through to two thousand and six. [R Whittaker:] If you accept that that derives from the propensity to move, is it sensible to make that assumption? [Malcolm Spittle:] But that is only one of the factors in North Yorkshire that is influencing the vacancy rate. We do have a very large proportion of holiday accommodation and second homes, which are concentrated in certain parts of the county. And we're concerned that this figure of seven point one percent, is in fact artificially inflating the housing requirement through to two thousand and six. [R Whittaker:] I had hoped this would be a short point. Could I ask [Malcolm Spittle:] Mhm. [M Rees:] Our figure discounted second homes. Our figure of the vacancy assumptions is the number of vacant dwellings. [Eric Barnett:] Yes your rate was something like five and a half percent if I remember rightly, yes yes. Yes. No Whereas [M Rees:] That's right yes, but it has takes no takes no account of second homes. [Eric Barnett:] H B F have gone for four point four five percent. [Roy Donson:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] But leaving the second homes as a constant figure and separate from is that right? [Malcolm Spittle:] I can't quite see the reason for discounting second homes altogether as the D O E have done. They are a factor in the the housing market in North Yorkshire and I think that we have to take those into account when we are looking at vacancy rates through to two thousand and six. And I think the overall figure that we've had produced, which is around the six point two percent, is still a very substantial level of vacant dwellings within the county. And I'm in no doubt that that will allow for the operation of a housing market, through movements er population and so forth. [R Whittaker:] What can the County Council do first of all to stop people moving house and secondly, to stop people stop d... to prevent any change in the number and distribution of second homes? [Malcolm Spittle:] The County Council isn't actually trying to control who occupies houses and what purpose they occupy them. What we're concerned with is the amount of land that or the amo number of dwellings that we are providing, through the structure plan, through local plans for the future. Er we're not seeking to control individual occupancy, that is not possible through the planning system. [R Whittaker:] But the implication of a declining rate of vacancies, is that something will stop people moving house. [Malcolm Spittle:] No I I'm not sure it necessarily will stop people moving house, what we're talking about is a level of provision for vacancy rates which is still well above national rates. [Eric Barnett:] Is that including your second homes though? [Malcolm Spittle:] That is including second homes yes. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. But it [R Whittaker:] Mr, I'd hoped it would be a short point. Obviously we're not going to reach [LAUGHTER] agreement on that [], but do you want to come back on vacancies. Or or indeed does Mr want to come in on vacancies? [Steven Grigson:] I could. Steven from. I think inadvertently, Mr has has slightly muddied the waters, by reintroducing second homes. I think that discussion is more usefully conducted in terms of what you called normal vacancies. And this is the basis on which the D O E have put in their figure, it's the basis on which we have put in a figure for vacant dwellings, and also the H B F. And all of us as it were, set aside as a block, all the second homes as holiday homes and say, those are as it were, outside this enquiry, we'll leave them there. They don't even enter into the projections we have done at all. Because they're a constant number, it doesn't arise. I think the issue as you rightly as Miss rightly put it, is the normal vacancy rate and is there any reason to suppose as the County Council must be supposing, that this shrinks to a degree. And when I say the vacancy rate, I mean a percentage rather than a number. And I don't see any mechanism whereby that production can be engineered, or indeed any intention by the County Council to engineer such a reduction. In which case I would see that the sensible thing to do, which is what we have done, is to assume that the current vacancy rate stays the same as a percentage and that with a larger dwelling stock, results in some additional vacant dwellings. [Roy Donson:] I I can't say any more than that. Erm that is exactly our point of view. [Eric Barnett:] Sorry can I just come back to Mr 's point, where you say, that the current rate of vacancy. Are you talking about the current rate as it prevails or we're told it prevails ion North Yorkshire, or are you looking at a figure which is somewhat nearer the national average or the figure which Mr 's organization have chosen. [Steven Grigson:] Steven,. We have sought to use the rate for the percentage for North Yorkshire, as at the nineteen ninety one census. [R Whittaker:] I interrupted Mr. [Roy Donson:] Right, er thank you very much. Roy, House Builders Federation. Erm so moving on, apart from the difference in in in vacancies, we then have erm a difference related to concealed households. Erm Mr has explained the view which is taken been taken by by North Yorkshire. Our view is that we should seek to accommodate concealed households. Concealed households are people who exist currently within the county. Whether or not further concealed households are formed over the next fifteen years, seems to me to be an irrelevance. It it should be the purpose of the planning authorities to seek to house its people. By ignoring concealed households, it is in fact not seeking to house its people, and is in fact not doing what in fact it says it should be doing within the explanatory memorandum. [R Whittaker:] I suspect after the Prime Minister's speech last night, it's no longer political correct to talk about single parents. If he's back to basics, but is it realistic to suggest that there will that all concealed households will disappear? [Roy Donson:] I am er it it may or may not be realistic to suggest that all concealed households will disappear. I did say that it's probable that concealed households will be formed over the fifteen year period. So they will continue to arise, but I think that it is right to plan to accommodate the ones that you know about. And the ones that we know about at the moment are the ones revealed from the census. The information from the Department of the Environment's nineteen eight nine based household projections, suggests that in fact there is a slightly larger number possibly erm in in in the round and that is five thousand dwellings as opposed to the three thousand one hundred and seventy we're seeking to include. And so to take what we would describe as a reasonable view on this, we say that if you know from evidence there are a number of concealed households, you should seek to accommodate them. And it is that is essentially the bottom line. Erm one could plan to accommodate more on the chance that they will arise, but we're not putting that forward.... Erm the then the seems to us the final er difference between ourselves and the er county council, is the issue of migration and what's already been referred to as environmental discounts. I'm sure we'll come on to discuss the nature and extent of those environmental discounts later. Erm but what we would say at this stage, is that there doesn't seem any rationale behind the discounts that have been applied by by the County Council, indeed we have a situation in Hambleton district, where there is a seventy percent discount, erm which doesn't seem to us to have been explained or justified. Erm we have put forward an alternative er mechanism for environmental discounts and er I can say by at this stage, by reference to the erm critique that has taken place of that of those environmental discounts in N Y eleven, that erm, while we wouldn't go along with making anywhere near the the additions that are suggested there, erm it may be that it would be sensible to make a further discount in respect of the heritage coast. So long as that does not include Whitby and Scarborough and er any settlements to the West of the what is essentially the coast road. Erm it may be that it it is sensible to make that discount and would only ap apply to Scarborough dis district, but as for the rest of the additional elements of er environmental discount that should be applied, I can't see why you should apply a discount in relation to agricultural land. I'm not aware we've got people living physically on agricultural land at the moment, they are fields as far as I know. Er and it would be just as sensible to make a discount for industrial land on that basis. I don't see why you should make a discount in respect of greenbelts. It is a matter of fact that greenbelts simply displace people around. Indeed the York greenbelt is entirely designed to do that. Displace people from York to er according to this structure plan alteration, partly to a new settlement on the outside of the greenbelt. And indeed within the greenbelt there are a number of settlements which we are sitting in one at the moment. Er which er have housing proposals within them and er to just make an average for the discount for the whole of the relevant parish, would be to overstate that particular case. Erm so we have we have er a a a a major difference there. Erm... but... our summary really would be that if one followed the County Councils proposals, this county would end up with a severe housing shortage. And that will actually drive people away from North Yorkshire. It won't actually stop people coming in to North Yorkshire. We don't have passports in this country, although as a long-standing Yorkshireman, I've always thought we should have them with Lancashire, but that's another issue. Erm but we don't and in fact what will happen in a housing shortage is that in migrants will be able to buy their way in. To some extent, the government's policy of affordable housing will enable an element of affordable housing to be provided, but it won't satisfy the needs of either people who are currently on the bottom of the housing rung and seeking to move up, nor will h help people who might be seeking to afford to c to come in as first time buyers as opposed to people who are otherwise er some other arrangement through an affordable housing provider. I have circulated round this morning, three er sheets which which help demonstrate that particular point. The second sheet which is headed commitments, is a list which is derived from er the statements made by the different authorities, er about the number of dwellings which are already permitted in one form or another. Er within their area. And we can see there that there are some nearly thirty three and a half thousand dwellings already committed. And having looked at identified needs for affordable housing, within again various statements made by the local authorities and compared those with the commitments that are left, in other words the places where they they could reasonably be found, we get some fairly large percentages of affordable housing requirement le on on on the remaining land. And on the front sheet o entitled affordable housing, we see there that in the case of Hambleton we'd be looking at forty one percent, of the remaining dwellings being unaffordable being affordable houses, down to York where it goes up to ninety percent. That is on the basis of the proposals put forward by the County Council. On the other hand, if the panel were to accept the figures which we are putting forward, you can see from the s the t table at the bottom of the page, those proportions come back to down to much more reasonable amounts. And we would say that that is much more likely to be achieved. In short, we are the people who are looking after the interests of the North Yorkshire people. And providing for their needs. Similarly,... I have also circulated a table entitled environmental capacity, where I have looked at what is the difference in percentage land-take terms, between the proposals of the county council and the proposals of the federation. We can see from that table that even on unconstrained land, we are talking about a difference of point one nine percent of land take. I would suggest to you that this must be an extraordinarily sens environmentally sensitive county if it cannot afford over fifteen years, to take an extra point one nine percent of its unconstrained land into development. And if by doing so it was to ensure that people who are already resident in this area are driven, this would be a totally inadequate response to the needs of the people of North Yorkshire. [Eric Barnett:] If we convert your nought point one nine percent into hectares we're talking about roughly five hundred, is that right? [Roy Donson:] Erm [Eric Barnett:] If I if I take [Roy Donson:] Yes yes Yes two one four O from [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Roy Donson:] one six four eight. [Eric Barnett:] Yes.... That [Roy Donson:] Erm [Eric Barnett:] Sorry. [Roy Donson:] Just one final point if I may about er er about about migration. Which I'll just pick up on as a as as a final point. Erm Mr introduced the the the the the prospect that erm if they'd have taken migration over the last three years, it would have been a much reduced figure. Oh yes, of course it was, the last three years have been a recession, what else would you expect. We don't think it is sensible to plan for a recession. And indeed, given the number of dwellings that are proposed by the County Council, we see from completion rates that in fact those figures, broadly compare to the sort of completion rates we've had through the recession. This then is essentially as we see it, a plan for the recession. It is not a plan for the needs of the people of North Yorkshire. And indeed, in efforts to des to also confirm our reasonableness in the figure that we've put forward, despite the fact that it's much higher than the counties, I have included in my submission, paragraph thirty nine, that there are a number of factors we could have taken into account, but haven't have chosen not to do so, er which would have in fact upped the dwelling requirement. And one of them to some extent has has has already been discussed. Which was which was that we didn't take the whole of the vacant dwellings, we only took a part, even though we are not aware of any planning policy that will restrict occupation of dwellings as second homes. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Mr Mr, Thank you for that, er er so we're we're still talking in terms of a difference of just over twelve thousand dwellings between yourselves and the county. [Roy Donson:] Indeed. [Eric Barnett:] Er at the risk of upsetting everybody again, can I go back to the point which has been made by North Yorkshire on this summary sheet here. To the apparent difference between yourselves and them on the death statistics. [Roy Donson:] Yeah. [Eric Barnett:] I mean is this real or is it a red herring, which? [Roy Donson:] Well I think it's only part of the picture, that is one element of er the whole make up of er of the population structure. And therefore, it takes one element and er it it erm it it seeks to highlight that particular element. I would also say that in fact er in in the paper that the number of deaths is converted into houses by app application of a factor of one point seven. Which I understand is the pensioner h er occupancy rate. I I In other words, all the extra deaths are going to occur only in pensioners? That may be very good news for the people of South Yorkshire who are below the age of sixty five, but I don't think it's realistic. Erm and so er I think that that is a slightly over-exaggerated figure anyway, and should be more like four thousand one hundred dwellings, even on this basis. But that said, erm what what it what the position is, er i is that we have put into the model Well we haven't put it into the model because it was given to us a part of the model and possibly by now North Yorkshire may have the revised model, No they haven't yet. But erm and essentially, the difference is this, if I can illustrate it by means of reference to appendix four in er N Y two of o o of North Yorkshire. It seems to me from looking at the figures within the projections that what North Yorkshire are are planning is that we'll have a return to that widening black area that's part of that particular diagram. What we are saying, and this is as a result of figures which are supplied by O P C S is that we are broadly saying that we will remain in this narrow band towards the end. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [Roy Donson:] And that essentially is the difference. And erm since we're both to some extent, crystal ball gazing, I suggest it's a matter of choice which to believe is most likely. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr. [Steven Grigson:] Steven,. I think I can help you on the particular limited point of deaths and their effect. Erm You asked some while ago whether it shouldn't be possible at least to have a an agreed view on how many people are dying as it were. But what is more difficult is to have an agreed view on how many people will die and at what rate, in the year two thousand and one and beyond. Erm I have laid round the table this morning, and I hope you have it, a single sheet of paper which sets out the component differences between the projections and the County Council. I only want to speak at this juncture on the element of that which is due to lower mortality as I call it, I E deaths and this is addressed in paragraph five and in the table at the bottom which shows an effect of about two thousand er extra households, due to lower mortality rate assumptions in our projections. Lower that is than the County Council. The difference arises essentially from an improvement which is now evident in the latest national projections. And those date from a nineteen ninety one base, as compared to what was being forecast from the nineteen eighty nine. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Any view from the county on that point? Mrs. [Mrs Long:] Mrs, North Yorkshire County Council.... I think one point that seems to have bis been missed by the H B F or is the fact that the population is growing. I too do have increased erm life expectancy for the very elderly, in our figures, the number of eighty five increased by sixty percent. We are not trying to say that the number of deaths are going to increases substantially so that the population is not growing. Within the sorry within the H B F projections, the populations grows by seventy thousand persons, so even though we have increased death statistics, mortality statistics where life expectancy is going to increase, by applying those onto a higher population you're naturally going to have more deaths. I don't see how that you can possible reduce the number of deaths within the county, or even maintain it at the same level. With this sort of growth. And migration is restricted to the very young, we do have high levels of migration by those in retirement age groups. [Stuart Cowley:] Can I add a supplementary er c coming back er. I think it's very instructive that er H B F didn't deny that they'd made a mistake on this number and just talking about old people, er the fact is that eighty five percent of deaths in the county occur to people aged over sixty five. And so er there is a very strong correlation between er age and death unfortunately. And we're not trying to er be er unduly morbid about this, but recognize the facts of life. Er the er narrow band that is referred to in eighty nine, nineteen ninety one between births and deaths. We would be very pleased to see it continue to narrow, indeed we we we we we wouldn't wish to to see it revert, but that again is a demographic fact. Er not because of the number of deaths is going to vary sig very significantly as Mrs said, we we are allowing it to improve over time gradually. But it's a factor because of the births is more volatile. And the numbers of births will reduce and so there will be more deaths. Er m more of a natural change. [Roy Donson:] I I I Roy, House Builders Federation. I I think I must come back with the fact that I haven't denied we made made a mistake. I haven't confirmed it either. Erm the simple fact is that the factors that have gone into the model that which we have used, have been the nineteen ninety one based fertility, mortality and infant mortality rates. And have been the nineteen ninety one based,correc local correction factors. The fact that it gives a different result from the ones that North Yorkshire have used, certainly they've used the neight eight nineteen eighty nine based fertility, mortality, infant mortality rates. I'm not sure what local correction factor they've used. I thought from the discussion we had a month or so ago, that they've used the eighty three based correction factors, but it maybe something else because the description this morning was given it was some lo other local one. But nevertheless it's a different one. The fact of the matter is we've used different factors. I used ones supplied which come effec effectively from government sources. They have used some other. They are different, but they're not necessarily right or wrong. [Mrs Long:] Mrs, North Yorkshire County Council. The actual local correction factors that are supplied by the Institute are calculated by themselves. They do look at the statistics the government statistics for fertility and mortality, but they have then the ability to amend, to adjust to local erm to to match up with local information. But they are supplied by the Institute and not the government. [Roy Donson:] I don't want to be picky about this but but I mean they are government based. It's a comparison of of what's happening in the county in terms of registrations of births and deaths, and what's happening nationally. So of course they're based on national figures. [Eric Barnett:] I I have a I have a nasty suspicion that we could go on all day like this if if I allowed it to happen. Er er I d I don't think that we as a panel are necessarily going to ever and and and it may not be our role in fact to do so, to come to a judgement on it, but I would have thought as a matter of common sense, and common agreement, that there should be some er way in which the various parties would come together on the basic demographic statistics and would certainly accept that certain basic projections should be used i in looking forward. But before I move on to suggest we have a break for coffee, is there anyone else would like to pick up any points on the demographic matters that we've been discussing, leaving aside the discussions on migration. come back to that later on. [speaker004:] Leeds, [Eric Barnett:] Mr from Leeds. [speaker004:] Yes, Ed from Leeds City Council. Yes chair I I'd like to raise a question. Is it legitimate for North Yorkshire to include environmental discounts in their calculation? And I say that because as Mr touched on in his introduction, the West Yorkshire districts are set a methodology for the definition of their housing requirement, buy R P G two. Strategic guidance for West Yorkshire. Now that guidance does not entitle the West Yorkshire districts to introduce environmental constraints the calculation of their housing requirement. Necessarily therefore, if North Yorkshire proceed with environmental constraints applying in their county as a whole, the proper planning of the region is being frustrated because somebody is not being planned for. [tape change] [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr P Davies:] Can I just clarify er this point that the concept of environmental discounts is not one that's been pursued by the County Council, though the Secretary of State quite clearly requires local to take into account environmental consideration. Environmental discounts and our comments on those are in relation to a concept, I think introduced largely by er the House Builders Federation. And our comments are to what you should or should not include erm as an environmental discount. So it's not our concept, we're not applying environmental discounts. The County Council's position is that er it has taken on board, environmental considerations. I think if you look at the House Builder's Federation's papers, there you will see, their idea of environmental discount. [Eric Barnett:] I think environmental discount and environmental considerations are factors which we'll come back to in in looking at the migration rates, so you're going to have another shot at this one. Mr. Yes thank you chair. Erm it's really just coming back on the issue of concealed household earlier. Er notice from the York City Council's submission, there is a difference in opinion between ourselves and the county on the calculation of housing requirement for the City of York. That what is discussing this morning, a relatively minor difference in terms of numbers. Now it does in fact arise from this issue of concealed households. Erm I think it is one of the important that should be emphasized. I think as Mr did say, erm the issue of affordable housing is a very real one. The government guidance er in P G three makes it very clear now that it's an issue we do have to address and if we don't for land requirement. We live in urban areas as well as rural areas. Erm. And so we have considered that an additional should be made in the City of York to take account of a policy objective of reducing the level of concealed and sharing households. Thank you for that. Can I just finish this this this session with one question back to North Yorkshire because I think you said, Within your sorry within your Sorry I'll come back to you, Within your projections you actually take account of concealed households. [Mrs Long:] They are identified. [Eric Barnett:] True or false? [Mrs Long:] False. They are identified within the census. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Mrs Long:] The additional dwellings are not added on to eliminate the problem. However as the actual number of dwellings increased, the proportion of those living in concealed households does actually reduce. [Eric Barnett:] Right okay. I understand now what you're saying. Mr. [Mrs Long:] Steven,. Two small points sir still on these technicalities of projections. And the first is to pick up on concealed households and just to add to the points that have already been made that erm neither the House Builders Federation nor ourselves are assuming that all be housed, but the projected number is five thousand whereas we're housing three thousand odd of them. But also to say that elsewhere in this region, planning is on a basis that all consumer households will be housed. West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire strategic guidance housing numbers include all concealed households. So if we are to have a consistent regional planning framework, that should be weighed in the balance as to whether they're taken into account in North Yorkshire. I also want to to actually draw your attention to one item on household rates. I hesitate to do so because that's actually a source of difference between us and the County Council. But there are parties round this table who have nostalgic hankering for a projections. And I've put around today a short paper which has a a graph attached to it which I think adds to the explanation when I draw your attention to. It's a graph of average household size in North Yorkshire, and it's to that extent it's an attempt to summarize into one figure, the headship rate effect as it affects average household size. The the falling line in er in a continuous line is. Derived either from County Council sources or actual census reports so that is as it were, fact. And when you come to the lines on the right hand side, you have two views of the future, which are labelled eighty five based and eighty nine based. And the are these are the D O E's projected household sizes from those two sets of household projections. And I think the point the graph makes very clearly is that the eighty nine based set up here at least in my view, to fit far better to what has been happening than eighty five based set. Not only had a much slower rate of fall, but are actually detached nineteen ninety one from what we know has been happening. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Mr? [Mr P Davies:] Yes. Chairman representing. I'd like to ask a question please of Mr. Could he explain or clarify please what his unrestrained land, this four hundred and ninety two hectares. Is it erm the national parks and greenbelt or I'd like to understand what it means. [Roy Donson:] Erm the if if if you turn to the er Selby submission on H one, you'll find a table at the back of that submission and that's where that's the that's where that the basis of that. [Eric Barnett:] Could could you Are you happy with that? [Mr P Davies:] Erm. [Eric Barnett:] Would you like it spelt out? [Mr P Davies:] I'd like to turn turn to the. Selby? [Roy Donson:] Selby. Selby H one. [Eric Barnett:] Have a look at it while we're having Coffee Mr. Can we have a break now for fifteen minutes? Come back at quarter to twelve. [break in recording] are you. [Mr P Davies:] No that's. [Stuart Cowley:] Yes sir the erm [Eric Barnett:] Mr Cowie. [Stuart Cowley:] Mr Grigson the positive paper this morning was er one item and also the more general question of the nineteen eighty nine projections closer than the nineteen eighty five ones. Er we've used the nineteen eighty nine ones but we are reluctant to do so. We don't necessarily believe that they are all correct in what they say. [R Whittaker:] Sorry the nineteen eighty nine projections for what? [Stuart Cowley:] Headship. Erm they're obtained by looking at the results of the labour force survey which is a very small proportion of households surveyed each year. And so there must be an element of doubt over having updated from nineteen eighty one here to nineteen eighty nine. Er we are confirmed in our reservations about this by the results of the regional census study as I noted in my brief commentary N Y three. Erm the point about the regional... census study was that it did a reasonably good job of analyzing the present situation, but not a very good job of the projections. And we did compare the eighty nine based headship rates come from that ninety one against the census in. And it showed er some doubt about the er actually levels of comparison, but there was a question mark they raised, specifically about North Yorkshire. North Yorkshire in that context was different to what they found in the rest of the region. There is n there is a doubt about whether the eighty nine headship rates are appropriate. Had we used the eighty five ones, the housing provision would be some ten thousand or so fewer than it is. Two thousand and six. [R Whittaker:] Sorry could you repeat [Eric Barnett:] Ten thousand. [Stuart Cowley:] Ten thousand. The second small point I just wish to reemphasize was er coming from what the House Builders Federation said earlier about the house builders being the people who are looking after the interests os North Yorkshire locals. I would remind all concerned that the local needs element in the predictions is sixteen and a half thousand dwellings. This as far as I'm aware hasn't been challenged by anybody else. So any dwellings over and above sixteen and a half thousand, would only be taken by people moving into the county and not by locals. And so it would not be right to say that we're not looking after the local element of the population. [Eric Barnett:] I don't think that was necessarily the drift of the the House Builders Comment. But er I'll leave that. Your comment about the headship rates raise an interesting issue, in fact goes back to the comment Mr made, about the West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire who've got a consistent approach in projecting. Is that correct? That's correct. I'm not sure whether Mrs is either able or would wish to comment necessarily at this stage but er and I but is there any possibility that in the course of the operating the R P G, although I know that circulates to me certainly. Is there any likelihood that that consistency of approach which is being used by the South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire Counties, would er could be adap adopted for o by other authorities in the North Yorkshire County. [M Rees:] Thank you chairman. Margaret, D O E. The erm draft of or the advice that the local planning authorities intend to give to the secretary of state is currently out for consultation, we hope that it will be submitted by the end of the year. At the moment the figures of housing provision in that draft advice are rat are done on a rather different basis for West Yorkshire as opposed to the other counties in the region. it remains to be seen what figures are included when it is submitted to the Secretary of State and what view he takes on that. But certainly when we in the regional office get that that advice before before we put a submission to ministers, we will of course try to reconcile the figures so that they are on a consistent basis. As for Mr 's point that Not Mr b Steven 's point that the erm figures for the strategic guidance for West and South Yorkshire were done on a different basis, those figures with the exception of Sheffield, were erm figures that were put in by the local planning authorities, the Secretary of State accepted those figures, they were done on the nineteen eighty five based household projections, coupled with different assumptions about vacancy rates and demolitions etcetera, and the Secretary of State accepted those figures. Erm in my view the Secretary of State may come to the view on the latest figures that are available for him and erm No that is what I hope he will do when it comes to erm producing regional guidance. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. I m I must confess I'm one of these simple folk who thought that once we got the nineteen ninety one census figures through then it would it would all start into place. [M Rees:] Me too chairman. [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] However [Stuart Cowley:] Can can I just? [Eric Barnett:] Carry on. [Stuart Cowley:] I was going to add a supplementary point er on that very issue of the nineteen ninety one census. Er referring to the graph in er Mr 's paper, which showed that er the ninete well purported to show the nineteen eighty nine based headship rate figures were more in line with past experience. Er that very much depends on the er intervening line at nineteen ninety one. And I'm just wondering whether er the er point at nineteen ninety one is a correct v in view of the under-enumeration er in the census which isn't taken into account. So it could be that there were line from eighty one would come up to the eight five based starting point er a rather than the eighty nine based starting point on the graph. We can't look into it because it's only just been given to us. I I would I would suspect that it needs some some interpretation. [Eric Barnett:] . [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Has anybody or or else want to make any comments on on the. I'd like to move on to this er this issue of migration. [M Rees:] Chairman I I wonder whether I could just make a sort of general statement from the department's view before we go on to a particular issue if I may. Erm I hope it didn't take too long to read our statement. [LAUGHTER]. It was rather shorter than than everybody else's. [LAUGHTER]. Erm I understand that the House Builders Federation have written to my headquarters on expressing concern about the possible temerity of the regional office having actually put forward a suggested figure for housing provision in North Yorkshire. We thought from where we sat that the department should stand up and be counted along with all the other participants around the table. I hope you will view that figure in that light. It is not necessarily the Secretary of State's definitive view, it is the view that erm the regional office have come to given the erm evidence presented presented at the time. Erm secondly, I'm not a statistician, I am unable to comment about all the technicalities of the the various assumptions that go into things but some of the people sitting around this table will know that I've been in Yorkshire and Humberside for quite some [LAUGHTER] time []. I therefore have a fair amount experience of this region and also erm I have been involved in quite a lot of erm estimates of housing provision over the years. We've set out the assumptions that erm we used as a basis for our projections in the note in front of you. I hold hold no great sway to those assumptions. I'm sure many people sitting around this table could drive a horse and cart through any of them. But I believe that what you should do with trying to come to estimates of housing provision, is to put together the best technical assumptions that you can, to then sit down and take a long hard look at the figures based on the erm the policies of the County Council as approved by the Secretary of State in previous structure plan approvals, the current government policy. I have particularly in mind, the erm regeneration initiatives of this government, the experience that erm you know of an area and erm... the experience of what is happening in neighbouring counties. This chairman is what we have done. Our conclusions for what they are worth are set out and we come to a figure of about forty five thousand. [Eric Barnett:] Well. [M Rees:] Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Yes well [M Rees:] Mm. [Eric Barnett:] for the next day and a half. Can I just come back to this migration question. And. But the difference between the H B F and the County Council on migration is somewhere in the order of four thousand.... [Stuart Cowley:] No No. [Eric Barnett:] Now on a North Yorkshire I can't remember which paper it is. It's in one of those. in one of those papers, there is a figure a hundred percent migration forty six thousand. Correct? [Stuart Cowley:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Now very simple if I deduct forty one thousand two hundred from forty six thousand you'll probably say I'm doing the wrong sum. Erm we have a difference of four thousand eight hundred. Now is that difference four thousand eight hundred, due to wastage or entirely to your adjustments to take account of environmental considerations? [Malcolm Spittle:] Yes that is. [Eric Barnett:] The question is do I need? [R Whittaker:] I'm chairman. I think it's impossible to explore why there is a difference, it does not explain why the matters we have already discussed, like vacancies, households and death rates why there is a difference between what the County Council say is one hundred percent, and what the H B F and others are advocating which is considerably more. First of all can I check that I am right in saying that the difference between the H B F's figures of fifty three thousand and the County Council's figure of forty six thousand is explained by the vacancies, concealed households, death rates etcetera. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. Can I short circuit that question and say, what in fact is your hundred percent? [Roy Donson:] Erm Roy, House Builders Federation. Erm fifty five thousand e No sorry, I'll have to look that up. One hundred percent migration. [Eric Barnett:] Never mind the other factors concealed households. [Roy Donson:] Fi Yeah. Fifty five thousand seven hundred. [R Whittaker:] . [Steven Grigson:] Erm Steven,. It would be fifty four thousand eight hundred if there was no reduction for environmental considerations.... [R Whittaker:] To what extent is the difference between that figure or those figures and the County Council's forty six thousand, not explained by what?... [Roy Donson:] Roy, House Builders Federation. My understanding is that there there there isn't any difference that is not explained by those. Those those figures. Erm the difference between us is of the order of... ten thousand I think. Erm... [R Whittaker:] Yeah.... [Eric Barnett:] That's a for your calculations [Roy Donson:] Mhm. No I'll have to I'll I'll I'm afraid I'll have to withdraw that that that comment. There is not erm I I I I would erm I have the figures ready to hand but. [Mr P Davies:] I think Peter, North Yorkshire. I think on this side there's also a degree of corporate confusion at North Yorkshire about the what exactly the what exactly we we we're trying to establish during this current round of er. [Eric Barnett:] I'm trying to establish put down a figure of forty six thousand for migration. That was taken, for vacant dwellings. [Mr P Davies:] Yes.... [R Whittaker:] What we are trying at this stage, is the extent to which the difference between the H B F's of fifty five thousand, is explained by any technical treatment of migration, as opposed to.... [M Rees:] Chairman I wonder wonder whether it would help if I quoted from the erm the study into b the census information. The and and and other information. Their figure for North Yorkshire for eighty one to ninety one, from the National Health Service register, was forty seven point two inward. The residual estimate which is from the census figures, was fifty point nine. I don't know whether [LAUGHTER] that helps in any way []. [Roy Donson:] Roy, House Builders Federation. Er that they're they're not the figures that ei either the county or ourselves started from.. I think I can answer your original question now if I may. Erm I think I'm right in saying that the difference on a hundred percent migration between the House Builders Federation and the County Council, is accounted for by the technical differences that we've talked about this morning, one thousand six hundred. Seven hundred and forty which you may card to ignore, that there are some base dwellings. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. [Roy Donson:] Two thousand four hundred and ninety on vacancies. And three thousand one hundred and seventy concealed households. And the remaining difference which I estimate to be one thousand five hundred, is really the I think is the difference in the treatment of students. [Malcolm Spittle:] Martin, North Yorkshire. I think we all agree with er Mr, that that there is a technical element to migration figures which is our fifteen hundred dwellings. As a a difference between us on technical measure. [Steven Grigson:] Sir if I could complete the er arithmetic, I think it would be helpful, if you were to look again at the single page note that was handed on this morning. At the table, in paragraph seven where we set out our differences from the County Council. I appreciate this is not in quite the form you asked the question, but you asked the question in terms of the differences apart from migration considerations. And as I'm able to do the arithmetic, the difference between the County Council's full migration which is forty six thousand two hundred, and ours with no environmental reduction which I gave you as fifty four thousand eight hundred, comes if I've done my arithmetic right, to eight thousand six hundred. If that's the difference between us which are not due to migration environment. If you now look at the table, you'll see that that's made out of three thousand two hundred for concealed households. Two thousand one hundred for a constant vacancy proportion. A difference of one thousand one hundred in the base dwellings stock which I've not discussed and don't propose to go into. And two thousand for the lower death rates, national projections which I've already mentioned. And I think that will be roughly of the order of eight thousand six hundred, so those are our component differences.... [Eric Barnett:] Yeah well, does anybody want to make any comment on that because I'm I'm quite environmental considerations Yes. Mr. [R Whittaker:] Er John, of of Consultants on behalf of the er Council for the Protection of Rural England. Erm you you've asked er chairman for for a general comment on on what's been referred to as environmental discount, environmental considerations and so forth. I I think the C P R E's general comments and and you'll see from our our evidence that we we've deliberately not entered into the the the debate that you you've heard to date this morning. Er our general response is is that the approach for the County Council is is to be commended erm i in terms of I think, interpreting the true spirit of of of government guidance in in plan making, that erm the the the the discussion about figures is but one consideration. Er to to to take into account wh when coming to agreement as to what the overall levels should be. Erm I think we feel quite strongly that that erm er the the emphasis that should be placed on environmental considerations is is considerable. Erm and as such, erm are concerned that perhaps i it is becoming a a secondary element erm i i in in the debate. In in that it's just being er interpreted as a percentage reduction erm as t to migration rates. Erm and I think just by way of introductory comment, I I refer to the the paper that that North Yorkshire put round, N Y eleven, erm in which there there's a far fuller discussion in there of what of what the environmental constraints are and what the considerations should be. Er county-wide, in terms of er how they should be reflected erm in the figures. And I think er w we're concerned that erm the the case presented by the county has in in concentrating on migration, perhaps they haven't haven't fully expanded on on the points that they've raised in document N Y eleven. I wonder if by way of introduction, the county might wish to to comment on that. [Eric Barnett:] Do you want to? [Mr P Davies:] Well I re Peter, North Yorkshire. I don't wonder whether it would be helpful just step back a bit and just look at the county council's view as to how it should treat migration in the light of what the Secretary of State has approved on two occasions, when this issue has come up. On the issue of migration and it's relationship with with adjoining counties. And our view is that whichever way you look at approved structure plan and the two decisions of the Secretary of State, first of all in er er on the approved structure plan and secondly, on the first alteration to the structure plan. Quite clearly there there is recognition that there should be some limit to the level of migration er inward migration in North Yorkshire. And the Secreta the Secretary of State is quite clear that the environmental constraint in North Yorkshire, is a particularly important one. Although we might try to decision method, the overall stress of the Secretary of State's decision methods, as they affect North Yorkshire, is that there must be some limit er to migration largely for environmental considerations and indeed, the panel in nineteen eighty seven were very concerned that er migration would not be slowed quickly enough er in North Yorkshire. So the there is the County Council we must try er and moderate migration. And it would appear to many rather strained within that agreed by the Secretary of State, a matter of general principle, the County Council accepted past level er of migration without looking er at the implications er of that. And indeed there are some who make think that the County Council has been too generous in that the reduction from the hundred percent migration in four districts, er amounts only to somewhere about four and a half er thousand dwellings. Now within that overall context, and H B F say we have no right to do that, it conflicts with. We say that it is important to the general stress erm of the structure plan. There should be some reduction er in migration er into North Yorkshire. That's the basic philosophy of the County Council's approach er in this plan. Yes er Joe representing Sams Samuel Smith's Brewery in Tadcaster. There is a technical difference that I should erm draw attention, draw the panel's attention to between ourselves and erm other p other in the migration rates. We believe that the migration rates that should be used should be a three year average rather than an eight or a ten year average. Our reasons for that are that the especially the eight year average used by the County Council, are unduly skewed by the boom of the late eighties, and give in our view, to high a trend t to erm to work from. Er the second reason that we would suggest this to the panel is that it is actually er used by OPCAS, the three year average is used by OPCAS rather than an eight year average. And as far as I can see, the only reason for an eight year average is because that was accepted by the previous panel. Well I don't believe that that should necessarily be a reason why it should be accepted in this case in by this panel. And it would in our view give a more accurate reflection of current trends if a shorter period were used. [R Whittaker:] but if you're using three year average, three recent three years. that you in fact recession. [Mr P Davies:] Well in fact we we do answer that point in our submissions that in fact it does take in Our three year average does take into account the tail end of the boom. So it does actually span the end of the boom, the beginnings of the recession. [Eric Barnett:] Yes, gentleman, the problem is the shorter the period, the less chance you have of getting a measurement which is necessarily representative of a general trend. [Mr P Davies:] Yes I I I would accept that as a general point yes that that that that that that the greater number of years, the more likely you are to get a long term trend. But er there is a a and I wouldn inevitably er one does stray into I know want it in particular points at the moment, but there is a policy consideration to be borne in mind as well, which erm does suggest that past trends should not necessarily be projected into the future. And i from a technical point of view I would support my case by saying that if OPCAS use it, it's good enough for us if it's good enough for OPCAS. [Eric Barnett:] . Can I I know we've got two people wanting to make comments on this. Mr. [Roy Donson:] Yes chairman, er Mike Cleveland County Council. Er I'm not quite sure what er stage you want us to b be involved on this intensive policy but I I can't comment on the the technicalities of the vacancy rates even migration rates. But erm in terms of policy, erm Cleveland County Council supports the approach that North Yorkshire and the district councils in the area are taking. Er on two counts in terms of policy. Er and following what er Miss indicated. Erm we have a major regeneration er issue in Cleveland and would like to retain as much of the population within the urban area within the compact urban area that we have as possible. And secondly we do recognize the quality of the countryside South of Cleveland and need to to retain its character and the lit the character of its villages which erm in fact do add to the attractions of the area when you're trying to e erm bring in new industry. Er undoubtedly a number of erm our res er our our er employed people, do live in the area immediately adjoining to the South and er the figures that Hambleton have produced and our own estimates based on the National Health er Service records on migration, do indicate that there is a strong movement er on an annual basis into the North Yorkshire area and in particular the sort of area. And we do recognize there are limits on the sort of growth in that area. So erm I can give you more detailed figures on these er if you wish. I don't I don't need to. And that's er just broadly speaking we we wish to support the general approach that North Yorkshire and it's districts are taking in terms of changing the trend. [Eric Barnett:] . [Roy Donson:] Okay. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Steven Grigson:] Thank you sir, Steven,. Keeping away fro the area of technicalities on migration. I think we all need to bear in mind that as far as what Mr said about what the approved strategy was and what the Secretary of Sta of State previously said. As I read the previous documents, the strategy was to bring down the rate of development in North Yorkshire and that has happened. From the late seventies, to the nineteen eighties or rather from the from the seventies, not just late seventies, to the nineteen eighties, it's come down about a thousand broad terms, a thousand dwellings a year fewer being built. And we see that strategy as having succeeded. And we applaud the County Council for it. It shouldn't go to their heads. And it seems to me to follow that the migration rates which go with that lower rate are the migration rates consistent with the approved strategy. And we don't see in principle any reason to divert from them. The second point I want to make is in relation to something that has changed since the approved strategy and that is the inter-relationship between North Yorkshire and West Yorkshire. I know we're going to come on to this again later. I only want to deal with it in broad terms and that is that compared to earlier E I Ps where West Yorkshire authorities were saying, Don't take too many people into North Yorkshire, as you'll undermine our regeneration to paraphrase. We now have the West Yorkshire authorities saying, Hang about, you're loading too much onto us, by not taking your share of migration out of West Yorkshire. And that seems to me a fairly fundamental shift in the regional balance of argument and need. [tape change] I only have one small comment in the point made by Consultants for the C P R E that one should place more emphasis on the environment. I'm afraid it's a negative comment. But the C P R E's evidence doesn't offer you anything to go on, save that the figures have been approached in the wrong way, cos they didn't start bottom up from the environment. And on that argument sir, the figures would be wrong whatever they are, whether they're half the amount the County Council put forward or twice. It's a valid point but it doesn't actually help you come to a recommendation. And finally, staying with generalities on migration, I think it behoves us all to be a bit cautious because I see quite a lot of fantasy and fiction around in in this E I P and I'd be guilty of it myself at times. We're all talking as if migration can be manipulated and a share between housing for migrants and housing for local need can be er arranged by us planners according to the numbers we write down on a sheet of paper. And in my experience, that usually is a foolhardy expectation. Migration has, particularly from metropolitan areas a certain tendency to keep going, a certain inexorability about it. And I would just caution all of us, when we're discussing local needs or migration, be it at the county level or at the district council level. How a little sort of warning flag that pops up in your mind to say, this may actually be largely fiction and we can't control migration anyway. I appreciate that's a useful way to discuss it, but let's not imagine it's necessarily going to turn out like that. What about? [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Roy Donson:] Yeah. Roy, House Builders Federation. To pick on u u up a few other points that have been made. I heard Mr say I think that it that the view of the H B F was that the county had no ra right to make reductions in migration. That is not the H B F evidence. The H B F evidence is that we they've no right to make any arbitrary reductions in just taking er unjustified blocks. And indeed B P G twelve, under the heading of environmental considerations says that a a authorities should have regard to environmental considerations, but recommend an environmental appraisal identifying, quantifying, weighing up and reporting on the environmental and other cost benefits of the measures which are proposed. That doesn't form part of this alteration, there is no such justification and that's our particular objection to it. In so far as a three year average is concerned, point b made by Mr and erm that being taken into account the tail end of the boom. I have to say that the boom of the nineteen eighties was something of a myth. Yes certainly in the late nineteen eighties, more houses were built in one particular year,depend depending on which part of the country you're in it happens to be different years. But the at the end of the eightee nineteen eighties. Compared with the average of the eighties as a whole. But the average of the eighties as a whole was low in house building terms. It was the lowest decade of house building since the Second World War. And in fact, on the County Council's own figures, which have g got completions since nineteen seventy seven, you'll find that nineteen seventy seven to nineteen seventy nine, have higher house building rates, than the highest rate of the nineteen e the highest year of the nineteen eighties. Which rather proves a point that in fact it was a low period, and therefore if you take a low period historically, which is er includes a a boom in inverted commas, within that, then overall you're going to end up with a very low figure er in total. So er it seems to me that it's particularly invalid to take the last three years. Erm as far as the C P R E's point is concerned, about erm government the true spirit of government guidance, being to take environmental considerations first, I find no especial support for that within any of the P P Gs. Indeed P P G one paragraph four, talks about guiding development to the right places. As well as preventing development which is not acceptable. P P G three e paragraph one, says the planning system must provide an adequate and continuous supply of land for housing. All seems to me and I could quote other other references from P P Gs as well to support the point, seems to me that the thrust of government guidance is balance. It is a matter of providing for the right amount of development in a balanced way. It is not putting environmental considerations first, last and if there's any left over, in between as well. Er I don't wish to pursue the point made by Mi Mike at this stage, but I will return to it under one C. Thank you. [M Rees:] Michael, Hambleton District Council. Erm I think I'd like to pick on er up on something that Mr has said about the strategy underlying the er approved structure plan. And also to support er Mr. Erm I think that certain elements of the structure plan erm strategy have been well documented er, the environmental issues, erm high priority to conservation, erm protection of the county's natural resources, of development restraint and relating the scale of development much more closely to local needs. However there's erm a further aspect of the original strategy which I would like specifically to draw to the panel's attention. This is that the strategy of the structure plan from the beginning was to seek a progressive reduction in the rate of house-building in the county by seeking a progressive [clears throat] excuse me. A progressive reduction in the rate of inward migration. And I I'd refer the panel erm to the written statement of the county structure plan of nineteen seventy nine, erm and the section entitled, the Strategic Framework, paragraph three nine on page ten. Which states erm the strategy envisag envisages a progressive reduction in the rate of the population growth from this source, as the supply of housing land is reduced to levels more closely related to the needs arising from North Yorkshire. Now the original structure plan recognized that because of the substantial number of housing commitments at that time, erm it wasn't possible erm to er bring down the levels immediately. And it was going to be a long term strategy. The term, long term strategy in fact appears in a number of instances erm throughout those pages. And I'd refer you to paragraph three ten and also paragraph four two two which I'd like to quote a short erm element from. And this states erm that [reading] Its effectiveness erm must be must be considered as a long term rather than a short term objective. The structure plan can not be seen for providing for a major or sudden change in direction. It's essentially evolutionary in its approach []. So the point erm I wish to make erm on er Mr 's observations, is that it's not the strategy of the structure plan was not simply erm to seek an initial reduction erm in the rate of residential development in the county and then that roll that rate forward in progressive erm amendments to the structure plan, Hambleton District Council believes that the logical interpretation of these statements is that a progressive reduction er in house building and the rates of migration should be sought through subsequent alterations to the plan. Now we would add that representations which seek to achieve a continuation of past building rates, or a continuation of past migration levels, are not in accord with the strategy as originally approved. Finally, I'd refer you to erm the Secretary of State's decision letter of the twenty sixth of November nineteen eighty where in paragraph one he takes note of the recent justification and in paragraph six four, he states that overall, the Secretary of State broadly approves the main objective of the housing policies of the plan of reducing inward migration into the county.... [R Whittaker:] Yes I'd j I'd just like to to pick up on on two points er, one made by Mr, one made by Mr. Erm I think er Mr said I think that that C P R E hasn't actually offered a solution in this debate, just just raised questions. I don't think that's strictly true but I do think that the discussion we've heard so far er has fully justified erm the the raising of some fundamental questions about the the the the method of projections. Er and the point about not offering a solution, C P R E clearly has in in erm taking to to go on to talk about the subsequent parts of policy H one and H two, the County Council's figures and then doing an analysis of those in relation to the new settlement, but I appreciate chairman that erm we'll come back to that. Mr raised the point about erm the environmental appraisal of of development plans, erm as set out in P P G twelve which is is indicative of a a a new er a new framework in which plans should be prepared. And and I would argue that that er an alteration to a structure plan of this significance, should should fall within the remit of P P G twelve. My understanding of what Mr was saying was that because it's an alteration rather than a replacement structure plan, that guidance no longer applies. That's not my understanding of how government guidance works.... [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. I think Mr picked up on the points that I really wanted to address in Mr 's remarks. Other than to say, the Secretary of State didn't limit his concern to reducing rates of development. Right through the decision letters, you get two elements. The effect of excessive development on the environment in North Yorkshire, and the second on is a relationship with places like Cleveland and West Yorkshire and the need to continue to see regeneration within those areas. It was a much broader package of for the Secretary of State than I think Mr, er suggests. The other point which Mr made on the difficulties of er manipulating migration. And I think, quite cl clearly, there are difficulties in manipulating migration. What it does require are complementary policies either side er of county boundaries. Mr, er about the policies of Cleveland within their area, to retain their population by making massive allocations of land. Er adjacent er to a North Yorkshire boundary. And if you go to places like erm Guisborough, erm er and South Middlesbrough there you will see a range of housing types available for range of groups in the community. If they weren't there, those houses, I suspect a large proportion of those people would now be living in North Yorkshire. So there's a requirement of complementary policies. And the County Council's consistently said to the West Yorkshire authorities, you must make provision for a range of sites in suitable locations to help draw er development that would othe otherwise come to North Yorkshire. Now something's been said for certainly fifteen years er that I can remember. [Malcolm Spittle:] , Michael,. Several points on the the question of migration as reported or a as included by the Secretary of State in in his decision letters. The first point I'd like to make is that the original decision letter dates from excuse me, twenty sixth of November nineteen eighty. We're now thirteen years further on. I think whilst... the Secretary of State has clearly said what he's said in that decision letter. I think we have to remind ourselves that that is thirteen years old and that circumstances have changed. Not least in the neighbouring metropolitan areas, where urban regeneration is thirteen years old. There's substantial improvement, particularly in West Yorkshire, and that does need to be taken into account. I'll go on to say that on the question of progressive migration restraint, I don't think anybody round this table is suggesting otherwise. The population projections that we have seen in front of us we h have discussed, are based upon what has happened in the county over the past eight years. That is that is where the migration projections have come from. The... these migration flows are already constrained by s existing structure plan policies. I think the close co-relationship between the rate of building, rate of past building and structure plan requirements, shows that those policies have teeth. Th that has been what's happened, there has been a reduction in migration flow. Or or not in migration flow but in net inward migration. These population projections we have, the hundred percent projections of the H B F of fifty five point K, of North Yorkshire... of forty six point two K, of of fifty four point eight. None of the requests for housing requirement are at that level. That therefore assumes a continuing an i an increasingly progressive restraint on migration. [Eric Barnett:] . Mr Sorry Mr. [Roy Donson:] Right, er Ray, House Builders Federation. Erm Mr referred to er put great store it seemed to me on the long term effectiveness of of of reducing er building. I'd just make the simple point that a sudden twelve point five percent reduction, I referred to it this morning, er in in building, is not progressively and long term, it's a sudden change. Erm and I think that erm the C P R E have most definitely misquoted what I said. I'll repeat the point. I'm not saying that P P G twelve does not apply. But I'm making the point, it does apply but it has to be justified. You have to justify the restraints that you make. My criticism of the restraints that have been applied by the County Council, is that they have not been justified. And we would regard them as arbitrary. And I would also point out that we are not proposing excessive development, in one of the papers I've I've put round, and I repeat the point I made it earlier. We're talking about point one nine percent. Point one nine percent of the remaining unrestrained land. As an addition. And that presupposes in that calculation, if you were taking the worst case, that that would all be greenfield land. The truth of the matter is of course it probably wouldn't be all greenfield land, but that's the worst case that I'm talking about. S O I think that it would be a very special place if it was unable to absorb that amount of development. [Eric Barnett:] Miss. [M Rees:] Yeah., D O E. I merely wish to reiterate government policy, as reinforced by my Secretary of State, John Gummer, last week in the terms of the single bu regeneration budget. And the emphasis that government places on regeneration of the urban areas. [R Whittaker:] Are you going to submit that document? [M Rees:] If you wish, [LAUGHTER] by all means yes []. [R Whittaker:] It seems to me to be important enough to be worth tabling if that can be arranged. [M Rees:] Fine fine. Would you like would you like the press release? [R Whittaker:] Yes. Please. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah.... Mr, do you want to come back on the point made on the other side of the room about your arbitrary... selection of building rates? [Mr P Davies:] I think presumably you'll be wishing at a later stage to look at what we're proposing in erm in individual districts. And one against another. I think the quite clearly what comes out erm of reading our papers and the papers of the district, is the er tremendous degree of consultation that's taken place on a number of occasions back and forth between district and making use of er of emerging working on er on local plans across the county. Erm to make sure that the proposals the County Council er is is putting forward are are soundly based. And we'd elaborate that when we talk about er individual districts. [R Whittaker:] I think it might be worth adjourning ask if there are any more demographic. And start again . [Eric Barnett:] Right. [R Whittaker:] I'd like to say a little bit about this table. [Eric Barnett:] Now? [R Whittaker:] Mm. [Eric Barnett:] Mhm. Any more points anybody wants to make on the demographic aspects? The migration rates. [Steven Grigson:] environment, I don't know whether that's later [Eric Barnett:] Well I think we'll probably deal with that this afternoon. Yeah. Yeah. [R Whittaker:] There's a Harrogate. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Steven Grigson:] Thank you, er David, Harrogate Borough Council. Er one or two small points I'd like to make. Mr, er a moment ago congratulated the County Council in fact on the success of the strategy in reducing migration over the last ten years or so. He then went on to say it's not actually possible to control the rate of migration and I'm sure that the the s success of of the policy in the past shows that that that is not the case. That it is possible through the appropriate use of policies, to bring down levels of immigration into the county. Er Mr also made the point that er urban regeneration erm no longer seems to have the emphasis that it did have. er I'm sure that the er representatives from the West Yorkshire authorities wi will say that their that objective is still extremely important in the in the respective U D Ps. Erm it seems to me that the emphasis has changed slightly in the representations being made by the West Yorkshire authorities and that they're now saying that it's much more difficult for them to accommodate housing developments within their own er districts. And that therefore, that growth should be exported to North Yorkshire. Er another minor point, er Mr n erm said that e the level of restraints that we're er seeking to or that the County Council is seeking to impose, represents a sudden restriction on house-building levels in in North Yorkshire. That certainly wouldn't be the case in Harrogate. Erm we would be allocating land through our local plan for the year two thousand and six. That restriction suddenly wouldn't be imposed in the next two or three years, it would be a gradual reduction through to to the year two thousand and six. And the point about erm er the extra development taking up only point one percent of the counties unrestricted land, erm is is statistical point really. It's even less taking up i i er land being taken up in the region as a whole, it's even less in terms of the U K. The important point is what it means for the settlement to the environment of North Yorkshire. And er that level of development, at five hundred hectares, is an extremely large area of land, in very sensitive locations, particularly around the main urban areas, which are restricted to a great degree. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. I think we'll come back to that when we start looking at the county district by district as it were. I think Miss would like to make some comment about the table, which was presented to her. [R Whittaker:] I thought you might like an for the lunch hour. Erm as the notes to this table indicate, it is a compilation by the panel secretary of what we believe is before us. You will have noticed there are some pregnant gaps on this table. We're not optimistic that we will fill them all, but one, we can for example talk about conversions. The more numerical evidence we can have before us, the better. As the chairman also said, the table points up some interesting questions. One of those interesting questions is, for example, the relationship between column H and column I and the way in which those relationships change as we move from one district to another. Thoughts for lunch time. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mrs Long:] of. Er this is clearly go going to become an important schedule and I think it you will inevitably run into difficulties here on different definitions of allocations for example. Erm if you er if I take the Greater York area for example, erm if you er if I take the Greater York area for example, the County Council erm have included in their figure of four thousand seven hundred and ten units, no new allocations, is my understanding. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. [R Whittaker:] This is the sort of thing we want to discuss as we go through each of the areas which we shall do under matter one C. Or one C. [Mrs Long:] But I think there must be I I would suggest to you that you sh you should request a discussion between the principle parties here to agree what allocations they're taking, whether in adopted plans or proposed plans or previous plans and what windfalls. One of the great problems of this schedule would be, the definition of the amount of windfalls, bearing in mind that many of the local plans coming forward erm are about to be produced rather than have just been produced. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah yeah. [Mrs Long:] And I think that it is an important er qualification to this schedule that the principle parties can agree what the in inputted are. [R Whittaker:] Indeed and I would hope our discussion of the provision within individual districts, will amend many of these figures. Certainly those which are relate to the future as opposed to what has happened in the past. [Mrs Long:] Okay thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Malcolm Spittle:] Martin, North Yorkshire County Council. Just a couple of of quick comments er er chairman just on the the the vacant co blank columns you have, J K L and M. Erm whilst the County Council can provide you with some figures on vacancies at a district level, we would be very loathe to make any comment on the assumptions for conversions and windfall sites. We feel that this is very much a matter for the district councils in the preparation of their local plans, with their local knowledge which is something we do not have at the county level to be able to to make comment on. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. I I I think we do accept that you probably not be able to fill those gaps. Er some districts may have some knowledge. I mean Hambleton for example having just produced their draft local plan, but other districts are not quite in that position. [Malcolm Spittle:] Yeah. [Eric Barnett:] But eventually those gaps would be filled. [Malcolm Spittle:] That's right. [Eric Barnett:] But certainly wherever it is possible to put a figure in, then we would appreciate it. [Malcolm Spittle:] Yeah, Could I also just quickly comment on the differences between columns H and I that you've referred to. That this does to a very large extent reflect the differences in local plan preparation across the county. You have already referred to Hambleton's progress. [R Whittaker:] Mm. Yeah Yeah. [Malcolm Spittle:] Which is perhaps not matched with the s quite the same stage by other districts across the county. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Malcolm Spittle:] Yeah. [Eric Barnett:] I think that will be crystallized or become clarified as we get into the discussion, district by district. Mr, you want to come back on that. [Mrs Long:] Er Richard,. Very briefly, I think the County Council must consider what they're going to do for conversions in windfalls. It's quite clear in in P P G three, paragraph eleven, that structure plans will make clear whether the housing provision figures include allowance from expected supply from conversions and changes of use, as well as from new building. And for unidentified and for losses from demolitions. The exercise must be done and should have been done by now. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [R Whittaker:] Yeah, my objective was not actually to start a debate but to give you some indication of where we were going to go this afternoon. [Eric Barnett:] Food for thought. Mr. [speaker004:] Leeds City Council. I'd like to come back to policy on migration chair, and I'm grateful to Mr for pointing out that nineteen eighty is thirteen years ag away and things have moved on in every respect demographically. In development terms. We've even got a new planning system. And I venture to suggest we've got new guidance from the Secretary of State. Because we in West Yorkshire have got regional planning guidance is sorry strategic planning guidance issued in nineteen eighty nine [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [speaker004:] Which tells us how to determine our housing requirements and doesn't ask us to take into account restraint in North Yorkshire. [Eric Barnett:] But that S P G is about to be replaced by R P G isn't it? [speaker004:] Well we would all welcome that but in in its absence, I suggest that the current policy is defined by the R P G, even though that's not specifically targeted at North Yorkshire, none the less, to be consistent, North Yorkshire should not be entitled to a to reduce arbitrarily, it's er migration assumptions. [Eric Barnett:] As I understand it, S P G is your S P G is not geared to the same time horizon is. [M Rees:] D O E. Cone I just comment briefly chairman. The Strategic planning guidance goes to two thousand and one. it was based on the figures that the West Yorkshire authorities submitted to the Secretary of State, which was on a policy as I understand it, of containing as much of their population they as as they were possible to. Erm they estimated there was going to be a continued out migration, but the aim of the original West Yorkshire structure plan and the p erm strategic guidance was to contain rather more of the population. Regional planning guidance will go to two thousand and six. We shall have to see what that contains. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. I think that's all we can say at this stage. [M Rees:] Mm. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. I unless anybody has got a Mr. [M Rees:] Erm [Eric Barnett:] [LAUGHTER] [M Rees:] Er [Eric Barnett:] And Mr second. [M Rees:] Just a just a very brief point. Erm it relates to er something that Mr said erm for er for Leeds City Council, that circumstances have moved on. I would suggest that indeed they have moved on erm since erm the original er decision letter of the structure plan. One area in fact that circumstances have moved on is erm on environmental awareness. I think that erm all would agree that now there is greater er concern than ever before about environmental issues. Erm planning legislation and advice in P P Gs erm have made the environment a far more prominent concern of planning than it was when erm the original structure plan was approved. And indeed the alterations were approved in nineteen eighty seven. Erm authorities are expected to show that environmental concerns have been comprehensively and consistently taken into adv erm account in their plans. Erm the planning conversation act nineteen ninety one requires the development plans to include policies for the conservation and that of the natural beauty and amenity of their land. Erm P P G twelve advises that policy should be in line with the concept of sustainable development. And now erm draft advice in P P G thirteen emphasizes the need to reduce the need for travel. Erm again because of the environmental con considerations. Erm and we would suggest that in the light of these new environmental erm of these new requirements and advice, erm it would be unrealistic to er to expect them not to be taken into account in the structure plan and give greater emphasis to the environmental originally environmental concerns of the structure plan. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Mr [Mr P Davies:] . Just to er the Leeds point, er it is actually a stated aim of the Leeds development plan to make adequate provision for the communities housing needs during the plan period, by identification of sufficient land for new dwellings, targeting of some provision for social housing, need groups and support for renewal of the existing stock. And then further in the plan, it deals with the er migration issue, and it says, New household t New household total still assumes that a substantial amount of housing will need to be met outside Leeds as a result of net outward migration from the district. Net out movement of the order of twenty seven thousand, eight hundred people is assumed over the period nineteen e eighty six, two thousand and one. Equivalent to around eleven thousand households. The loss is a little below the strategic guidance figure of thirty thousand two hundred and also represents an improvement over the historic trend. This is consistent a more optimistic view of future economic performance that is appropriate in the light of the counties economic strategy. And that and on the economic strategy which is U D P based. There's a clear implication there, that the U D P policy is moving in the dire the same direction as the Cleveland policy is moving. And that is to make provision for its own population and to claw back economic development er within the boundaries of the area. [R Whittaker:] Mr that was a long quotation, can you submit [Mr P Davies:] It's in it's in. My submission on that point is [R Whittaker:] No can you submit the doc a copy of that paper the document. [Mr P Davies:] Yes yes I can. It's an extract from the Leeds U D P. [R Whittaker:] Yes I understood that. Our notes weren't that fast. [Eric Barnett:] I have I have read it elsewhere and not necessarily having read the doc the whole of the document of the Leeds U D P but on that note, since Leeds leads would you like to [speaker004:] Yeah, could I just er respond to Mr and say, this is not the public enquiry into the Leeds development plan. Er obviously we will er justify our position at that public enquiry. Er I'm simply talking about a level playing field. What is the framework within which we are operating at the moment. And I'm again grateful to Mr for reminding the panel of the con the constraints of the environmental policies within which we all work, not just North Yorkshire authorities, we're all required to look at environmental considerations. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And er if if it's appropriate for North Yorkshire to apply environmental constraints within the whole of its area, I'm not talking about particular districts but in in the whole of its area, then it is appropriate for Leeds and Bradford and the metropolitan districts to to do exactly the same thing. And that will just lead to planning chaos because obviously somebody's going to fall between the plans. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you for R P G. On on on that note, can I suggest we adjourn for lunch, meet back here at two o'clock, prompt start. [tape change]

[Eric Barnett:] The erm session this morning Erm to try to say other than the district council and that is the council What I'd like from If we take for example the low figure thirty one K, the county figure and the H B F figure of.... What is the for example. [speaker002:] I think it should be addressed sir that your amplification is nonexistent. [Eric Barnett:] Did you miss the question? [speaker002:] I just heard. [Margaret Rees:] chairman shall I put my [LAUGHTER] head on head on the block. Margaret, Department of the Environment. Erm I have to say that that these are largely my personal views of the member of the regional office, rather than obviously the Secretary of State at this stage in the proceedings. But I think if you went for the figure as proposed by the H B F, you would be going actively against the regeneration statutory which is the erm the government's policy. If you look at the strategic guidance for West and South Yorkshire, and I fully admit that we still have to see the erm the colour of regional guidance. But the strategic guidance for those two counties very firmly puts economic regeneration at the head of the list of objectives. I think if you let development rip for the want of a better word in North Yorkshire, as I suggest the House Builders Federation would do, then it would be active acting against the regeneration strategy. As for the figure proposed erm by Samuel Smith's representative. I think probably that is at completely the other end of the spectrum, and would be stifling the natural growth in North Yorkshire and what you would be doing then is is acting against the erm the inhab the existing inhabitant of North Yorkshire because you would probably be forcing them out of their county. I would therefore go for as you well know in our figure, somewhere around the middle line. [R Whittaker:] Do you difference between your figure and that of the County Council is critical in in anyway? [Margaret Rees:] I think our figure gives a rather more measure of flexibility than does that of the County Council.... [Dave Girt:] Setting aside the exact figures chair, I think Leeds position is that left late at the goalposts set down by R P G two, erm our members are the City Council's grasped the mettle of accommodating the level of accommodation that that implies. It would make very significant incursions into our much against our wishes, to accommodate that, so that we would be looking to North Yorkshire to and work to the same levels of migration, the trend in migration as it were. Obviously a figure higher than that would take some pressure of us to make those incursions into the green belt, a lower figure conversely would require us to make higher la larger incursions into our greenbelt. So we're looking for North Yorkshire to play to the same rules basically. [Eric Barnett:] You you have already erm done it going into the greenbelt. Am I right in thinking that you wouldn't want to go on with these incursions? [Dave Girt:] That's right, our position is that we've already... erm adversely affected our environment if you like as and the balanced er approach respectively needs to meet housing requirements. Erm but we've gone as far as we feel we need to. Erm other people should have to make the same sacrifices. [R Whittaker:] But what are you saying about? [Dave Girt:] I'm not making any comment on specific figures. [R Whittaker:] I'd like you to [Dave Girt:] Well I can I decline the invitation. I I don't have a an answer an arithmetic answer. I think a figure was quoted earlier, I haven'read the of the with migration estimate for North Yorkshire. With that was a hundred percent a hundred percent migration. [Eric Barnett:] K was the figure. [Dave Girt:] Right. [Eric Barnett:] Which is very similar to your colleague on the right.. [Dave Girt:] Well a all I'm saying chair is that the principle of the calculation is is what I'm pleading on behalf on behalf of the City Council to be met. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [W Caulfield (bill):] Er yes, Bill, Bradford Council. Erm Bradford and Leeds have er adopted a similar approach in their representations to er yourselves and certainly er I did not come here to take a er a part in the debate over specific figures. Er we er accepted the County Councils er sets of figures where we took issue with them is erm the failure to take account of one hundred percent inward migration trends. Not what that figure is or or what period it would be. But that percentage figure. Erm er on that basis erm... we... would and and even allowing for even allowing for a dense movement from Bradford to North Yorkshire, erm we as it said in our statements, are happy that that movement will not hinder urban regeneration in the urban area of the Bradford Metropolitan district. We refer too er in our statement er an absolute release figure of hectares in the greenbelt, and that is a percentage of our new housing allocations. In addition to that, it might interest you to know that er in excess of a further one hundred and sixty hectares of land is in our U D deposit version, U D P proposed to be released on greenfield sites on the edge of the built up areas. And that is in excess of fifty percent of the new housing allocation. Erm we in our recommendation to you have suggested a figure of forty six thousand, two hundred. Which is would give you County Council. Er su suffice We didn't want to get into too much of a discussion about numbers. If you the trends then er going on to the... going on to the... House Builders Federation figures, that would not cause us to release more land within the greenbelt, as would the lower figure of the County Council, based on seventy five percent inward migration. And by implication, the thirty nine thousand figure. Erm certainly the low figure would cause us tremendous problems er environmental problems of our own. Erm forty six thousand figure we feel is acceptable in that we still have to make environmental releases in the greenbelt, but erm the net outward movement would not hinder our urban regeneration. Erm the higher figure would obviously lead to bring into question something that er Miss has mentioned about er urban regeneration. Erm I think erm both the low and the high figures would cause us problems, and that is why we have have accepted the County Council's figures based on continuation of past trends, migration trends, which as my colleague from Leeds has pointed out earlier we are obliged to do and are continuing to do in following from R P G two in our depopulation of the. [R Whittaker:] I think it maybe has to be said that we we picked these figures, not because we wanted to talk about the figures, but simply to use them as for you to hang on to. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Roy Donson:] Yes, Roy, House Builders Federation. Erm naturally enough you wouldn't expect me to agree with Miss that erm the figures that we've put forward are against the regeneration strategy. It's certainly true, I don't think that we're letting development rip. However erm one thing I think that's got to be borne in mind and it picks up a point that erm Leeds have made, is that they're looking towards trendy migration, they say. With their balance of things. It has to be said that the current U D P of Leeds makes er an a an allowance of migration of net out migration of just over about nine thousand three hundred per five year period. That's embodied within the plan. If you look at the revised mid-year estimate, the figure there if we're keeping things in balance between county and and Leeds, is six thousand two hundred and fifty, net out migration. So there's if we're keeping things in balance, there's three thousand people per five year period, got to go somewhere. Now if on the same basis, you at the same time reduce the amount that the county's taking in, that exacerbates that particular group. And indeed I would submit that Leeds would find it difficult to actually accommodate the migration assumption which is w would be implied by sticking to the revised plan, mid-year estimate figure. I think that they would find it quite difficult to actually do that er without very many incursions into the greenbelt. Bradford, the position is not quite so stark. But nevertheless, they're very much as I see it, on the border. Er and the their U D P's just on deposit so got to go into it in a bit more detail yet. But it would seem to me that er there may be a marginal undersupply in Bradford on the basis of the current U D P and that is assuming that we we have the same balance between Bradford and between North Yorkshire as I am implying from my my particular figures. Erm I see nothing in the current Bradford U D P which suggests that they aren't erm majoring on urban regeneration, that they're doing they're doing exactly that. And so I would say that the whole thing, the figures that I'm proposing, er and the consequences for both Leeds and Bradford er would be in fact to maintain a balanced strategy for urban regeneration. And it does seem to me that erm I can't quite understand why it's possible or it seems to be an argument that you can accommodate a bit more development, squash a bit development into Leeds and Bradford and it doesn't matter very much. But you can not accommodate more development in North Yorkshire. those two things to me don't seem to be compatible. Certainly I think we're in very great danger of Leeds Bradford, if we start pushing things a great deal more. Erm it is part of our strategy of course erm that we are not er pursuing a hundred percent migration. So we are assuming a little bit more Bradford and Leeds but not erm la particularly large amounts. [Eric Barnett:] Do you do you want to comment on the lowest figure? [Roy Donson:] Well the lowest figure, erm we've already got a level of commitment, we have to have three thousand de-allocations if that was the case, that does not seem to me to be correct. No. [R Whittaker:] What happens to the housing market people... if? [Roy Donson:] Erm that that I think relates to I think there are two important points t to make here in relation to forty one thousand. Erm I I said some the this this morning that in fact I think there would be serious affordable hou affordable housing problems er associated with that figure. And I think also we shouldn't overlook the em employment in Leeds that would be related to that. Not only employment in terms of the relationship between proposed industrial allocations and housing allocations, but the purest employment er problems of the construction industry as well. It's interesting that no no other than Tony M P Secretary of State, speaking at the conference, Building on Success, said that the erm construction industry accounts for a tenth of our National G D P. Er the industry is responsible for half our fixed investment and accounts for a third of our manufacturing base. It is therefore a critical component of our national economy and its good health is essential to our recovery from the downturn. I will take it from that that you play with it at this stage er of a recovery. Erm and erm I don't think that on the to go on about affordable housing as I did this morning, I don't think that in fact the affordable housing targets which the different authorities have and although I've only quoted four authorities I think, I think the other ones will be very much the same. I don't think that erm... it will be possible to meet those affordable targets on the lower numbers. That simply people will miss out. They are not the only people who'll miss out, there'll be people at the lower end of the housing market who could afford to buy. Well if you take the the figures that It depends where they are to some extent. [R Whittaker:] I'm sorry [Roy Donson:] Yeah. On the affordable housing front? [R Whittaker:] Or any other front. [Roy Donson:] Any ot any other front. A on on on on the general issue,. But erm er on on on the figures that I've I've submitted, erm we've already got three of those five districts have got s fairly high affordable housing percentage requirements. And with Ryedale still at thirty eight percent, these are on my figures. Scarborough twenty one percent, probably getting towards okay. And York at twenty five percent. So meeting halfway, meeting that halfway house figure I think, erm would only seek to push up those figures. And you would only you you Yes you'd meet more of the affordable requirement no doubt, than you would at the lower figures, but in my view, you'd still be left with some fairly substantial problems in particular areas. [R Whittaker:] What housing effects of the housing market? You concentrated on? [Roy Donson:] Well in in in in in in some ways erm I've I've I've covered er some some of that point by referring to the to the importance of the construction industry. We have been and some would still have us believe, I think it's true, we're not out of the woods yet as far as er er recovery of the housing market is concerned. Er we've been in the longest recession in the housing market I think in memory. I think if not ever. Erm and there is still a need to supply houses to meet the needs of household formation. In the meanwhile while houses have not been built, people still go on forming households. And there is out there I'm very sure, a great un-met demand. Erm and if there is an undersupply, a serious undersupply, then sections of the market are bound to miss out. Erm whether whether that's just affordable or or whatever. And the ma market will become targeted to particular sectors and particular groups. And one effect of the recession has been, I've got to say, that a lot of the old that er house-builders have operated on, which are good for selling, which sites will sell well, etcetera a lot of those rules have been out of the window. There's a great air of uncertainty and erm... we have to be very cautious about proposing housing numbers which mean there'll be very few new sites, which will be the implication of forty one thousand two hundred. There'll be very very few new sites being formed, the inevitable consequence of that will be to push land prices up. Land prices are already rising at the moment er in this region, even though house prices are not rising at a commensurate level. And so that will have its effect in the fullness of time. And certainly if you keep housing numbers in short supply, the only effect will be to push land prices even higher. [Stephen Grigson:] Thank you sir, Stephen from. I think our view of the effects of numbers significantly lower than the ones that we've put to you, is first of all that there are a number of factors which planning cannot influence and will not influence. And I would include in those, the vacancy issue that we discussed this morning, so there will be more vacant dwellings whether it's a percent of thirty thousand or fifty thousand. There is the improvement in mortality. I don't think planning has any influence or would wish to have any influence on that. There is the tendency towards higher headship rates and more household formation. And I don't think planning will have much influence on that. So with one proviso, I would say that that households will form whatever number of dwellings you write into the structure plan, those households will form in North Yorkshire. So if they don't have sufficient dwellings to meet the requirements, two things and I would expect them both two things, would happen. First of all, and I put this purely in order of er semantics rather than priority. First of all I don't think local needs would be fully met, as you know I think very often the migrants are able to outbid local households in the market, so I don't think local needs will be fully met. and indeed in terms of the low figure of of of thirty one thousand it it's statistically conceivable that no local needs would be met. But I think the way that that would occur would be first of all I would expect to see an increase, a steeper increase than is already project I should say in concealed households. I would also expect to see as a result of local shortages, more sharing of dwellings, by households who have formed not the same of concealed households who haven't succeeded in. And I should say on that topic that we looked prior to this E I P at the implications for sharing of the paper that er Miss put before you in her personal capacity. And our best interpretation as far as we could tell from that of course that was that the implied increase in sharing, because sh assumes that households with dwelling was about between four and five times the present sorry nineteen ninety one level share in the county. And to give you a measure of what that would mean, it would be a return to the conditions of the late forties, early fifties as regards sharing in North Yorkshire is concerned. So there is a very considerable backward step. And that will be one of the implication lower figures. But that local needs heading is one heading, the other heading which I think would be unavoidable is erm on migration. I would expect to see the lower figures resulting in as indeed they themselves imply, lower migration movements to North Yorkshire and indeed I think the figures from er might end up by the end of the period as net outward movement from North Yorkshire to be achieved, given the level of commitments we have up front. And if we look at the implications er West Yorkshire which were touched on in the beginning of this part of the debate. It seems to me unavoidable that one of the consequences would be to take more greenbelt land in West Yorkshire. And in that sense the choice at this E I P is whether to use greenbelt in West Yorkshire, or non-greenbelt in North Yorkshire. And I think to an extent those two are two ends of the seesaw and is a straight er choice that has to be made. You'll not be surprised to find that in terms of national policy, I would have thought that was very clear if you were given that choice, what the policy should be. I'm not aware that it's national policy that greenbelt should be used for the sake of urban regeneration. I think that I would see the consequences of the lower figures as being twofold. Severe impact on local need, and also substantial impact on migration, with particular in West Yorkshire. [J Cunnane:] Erm s s several points I'd like to make. Er it's been suggested by Mr from the H B F that as I understand his suggestion, that a lower provision of housing land in some way affects affordability or affects the er access to housing for the lower se lower ends of the lower income households. Erm there is no evidence Well I've seen no evidence, first of all to substantiate that claim, and in my opinion, all the evidence suggests that the key determinant of house prices and therefore land prices is the ration of income to the price of the property. And in fact housing is more affordable now, than it has been for twenty five or thirty years. When we are in as Mr himself agrees, the worst housing recession probably this this century. So I would seriously question that you can make the sort of relationship that is suggested here, between affordability and increasing the numbers. I don't think the link is proven and I would certainly like to see evidence to substantiate that suggestion. Getting back to the numbers, Mr says that if the number suggested by ourselves, through our client of thirty one K were er adhered to that it may well reduce the ability completely of locals to gain access to the housing market. Well I think the figures agree that the requirement for local need is sixteen thousand five hundred, about half the thirty one K suggestion. And again there is a suggestion put forward to support this theory that local people won't have access to housing, and the suggestion is that ou that migrants have the ability to outbid locals. Well I have no see no evidence for that suggestion, and I think if the panel are going to accept this suggestion, then evidence or some some sort of information should be put forward to to to to back it, because I don't accept that it's it's necessarily the case. Erm the the beginning and the end of this argument is about migration. There is enough land to provide for local needs, more than twice enough. It's about pr p provision for migration and what the policy should be for that. And that brings me to the point that was made er by Mr and others on the other side of the table, that the structure plan does have a policy of a continued reduction in migration. That is a policy of the approved structure plan. We're not talking about reviewing the structure plan, we're talking about an alteration to it. And there is no s support round the table so far for the H B F figure of fifty three K. As I understand the Leeds position, they want what they call a lev a level playing field, or to be aiming at the same goalposts that they've been aiming at for the last number of years. But that would only support forty six thousand two hundred. Which is the North Yorkshire structure plan unconstrained figure. So with those erm policy points and those questions about the ab ability of migrants to outbid locals, and the ac housing access issue, I would erm suggest that if they're to be accepted by the panel, then more information is. [R Whittaker:] What do you feel indicates the County Council's proposals. [J Cunnane:] Erm the figure the County Council have proposed in my opinion, doesn't achieve a sufficient level of reduction. It goes in the right direction in so far as it does aim to re to continue to reduction in migration, but it doesn't go far enough. And I take the view that the Unity Development Plans for Leeds and Bradford do tend to me to suggest that there is the ability to meet an increasing amount of need in within their own areas and that that should be reflected in a continually reducing er export if I can call it that, to North Yorkshire, and this morning we heard from Cleveland that Cleveland are making gallant efforts to er to er retain their economic er viability by retaining their population. So I would say that the North Yorkshire er figure in summary, goes in the right direction but not far enough. [R Whittaker:] What is it that happens on the ground that in your view makes it not far enough? [J Cunnane:] The release of green fields in Yorkshire for urbanization, when that l that housing could be provided by urban regeneration in the adjoining metropolitan areas. And to my mind that is a fundamentally flawed planning strategy. The release the release of green fields should only happen when there is no other solution. And here we have a county which is taking sixty percent of its housing requirement from outside its boundaries. When I am not convinced that those er the areas outside those boundaries which are in dire need of urban regeneration, could not accommodate a greater proportion over over the planned period. [Eric Barnett:] Bearing in mind, bearing bearing in mind Mr 's assessment of, how do you assess the realistic chance of actually. [J Cunnane:] I don't think you I don't think you will be able to stop at that figure, I think that the allocation should stop at that figure, but there will be windfalls and there will be other er recycling of land that will take place that isn't already allocated. And it comes back to my point about the allocation of green fields and the there should be no more of that because there's already enough allocated. But I wouldn't for one moment suggest to the panel that windfalls and recycling of land shouldn't continue to take place. [R Whittaker:] But if you recycle land already used by housing, you don't necessarily get any more or any fewer dwellings. [J Cunnane:] Yes but you tend not to get recycling of housing land of housing, you tend to get recycling of housing land, new housing land from outworn industries, nonconforming use, that type of erm recycling is just what I had in mind. And that's what tends to happen. It's it's unusual these days bearing in mind the the government advice on planning policies for existing housing to be redeveloped. Unless of course it's er high rise housing housing in in in urban areas and of course in that in those scenarios you do get a big reductions in the number of. [R Whittaker:] pitched at twenty one thousand, could. Means that provision has to be. [J Cunnane:] No because section fifty four A and all section fifty four A says is that a decision should be made on a planning application, in accordance with the development plan. If the development plan said, Thou shalt not develop that green field, if it was not allocated in the development plan, then section fifty four A would er would work very well. Erm and of course section fifty four A does admit or taking into considera taking into account other material considerations. Erm for example, I have been involved in a site in North Yorkshire, er where it is proposed to build a hundred and sixty houses in Tadcaster. And the provision for the county is well over the allocations in the structure plan already, but the County Council, sent observations to the District Council to say, We're not going to object to this particular er windfall site coming forward for a hundred and sixty houses, because it's recycling existing urban land, and in that case we can set the policy to one side. So there is the ability to set policy to one side of the circumstances dictate. Sorry could you that again? [R Whittaker:] What do you think that does for? [J Cunnane:] I think the credibility of the planning system is enhanced by the fact that decisions can be made on individual circumstances. That policy isn't a straitjacket. It's plann i Planning is now policy led yes, but but but er planning isn't a slave to policy. If policy can be set to one side then it is set to one side and I think it enhances the reputation of of the system.... [P Sedgewick:] , Michael and Partners. I think my first point is that the answer to your question depends to some extent on what population what demographic forecasts prove to be most likely. Because the f the county's forty one thousand figure I I'll give you a different answer on th on the effect of that if the H B F's forecasts are the most accurate,. So it's I'm taking the the question in that light.... If the bottom end of the population projections are implemented in terms of planning requirement. [tape change] if the planning if if the requirements fall much below the demographic requirements, the implication is that migration could be controlled but it may be controlled by a mechanism which I don't think anybody really wants and that's by stimulating out migration in North Yorkshire. Because you are talking about net migration flows. To increase out migration will selectively erm encourage those people least able to compete probably the the the the younger section, the seventeen to twenty ei twenty four year age group which we already know are there's a net out migration flow. We'd encourage those to leave the county. Obviously the housing requirements should not be such as to generate harm to environmental interests. We've heard in introduction Mr Mr say that the County Council would not like to see housing requirements any lower than they have proposed. I take I take that to be that that is the bottom end of a of a range. Cos I I think there must be a range. The question of the relationship with other areas in the adjoining counties. I think that is more a question of distribution within districts than overall district levels. Harrogate and Hambleton for instance are large districts, they extend many miles from North to South, development concentrated around the metropolitan areas will draw out commuters. But there is a strict limit to the distance, well not a strict limit but commuting is sensitive to distance. So annotations in Central and Southern Hambleton would not have an effect on Cleveland. The in fact looking at Hambleton's figures, one can see that it's only really [clears throat] it's only really the top North West, I'm sorry the top North East. Erm Stoakesly, Hunten, Rugby area that does prove attractive to to communities. And I don't think the I don't think the the overall scale of that issue is one which needs to reduce the strategic requirement on Hambleton. That can be dealt with at a local plan level by distribution within the district. The same applies much to Harrogate as well. [Eric Barnett:] You're effectively saying that [P Sedgewick:] Yes.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [speaker002:] Yes thank you sir. Er just a points er I think it it you probably had this point clear in your mind anyway but there are different rules that apply as between West Yorkshire and Cleveland. North Yorkshire. One area's in in need of urban regeneration and pressing for growth, and one area's subject to a policy of restraint. So I don't think it's a case of geese and ganders, I think it's a case of distinguishing between the different strategic policies that apply. Erm I think this whole issue is going to boil down to the your assumptions on migration. If one goes to answer your question, to the top end of the range being put before you, the effect will be to release probably more than a thousand acres of greenfield land er for housing development purposes. And that I would suggest is not a policy that's consistent er for that with tempered restraint. Erm you will also in going for the higher end of the range, er be prejudicing the urban regeneration objectives of those neighbouring districts. Erm there are two further points that commit discussion just taking place. And one is about the effect of the reduction of a s the migration assumptions. It clearly will not take immediate effect, there is a lot of housing allocations and permissions in the pipeline as it were, so it will take some while for it to wash through the system. Er my final point sir is concern with perhaps a few emotional points being made to my right about the old and the infirm and the young not being able to afford houses. Erm this County Council is proposing to allocate significantly more housing for in migrants than for local needs. Er which in my view is quite a rarity. Erm there are other policies in any event which one can use at local and structure plan level to secure social housing provision if it's required. But I would also like to pick up the point that Mr said, there is no evidence to suggest there's a massive problem of the local residents of North Yorkshire er not being able to compete with people in other counties to the North and to the West. Er there's with no evidence of an oversupply, my suggestion is that the decision you must be taking is to what degree do you assume er to what degree do you er recommend a reduction in migration rates. And I would suggest sir that somewhere between the lower end of the figures cooked on my left here and the County Council's figures. So I feel the County Council haven't sufficient reflected in their assumption on migration rates, the degree of reductions required to to obtain that balance between er preserving their strategic policies of restraint and respecting erm the urban regeneration policies in neighbouring areas. [R Whittaker:] Can I the H B F. H B F's assessment that there are about thirty one thousand dwellings already committed in one way or another in the system. I haven't looked at the details of those figures, but are there predominantly be provided in the first ten years of the structure plan. The implication of any figure, indeed the County Council's figure for the last five years of the structure plan, could be characterized as putting the brakes on so hard, that the passengers all fall off the train. I'm being provocative. Mr, is that not the case. [speaker002:] I think probably the County Council are in a better position than me er to to advise you as to whether that thirty one thousand commitment figure is true of not, but if it were the case, then I think, Yes I would agree that erm the train would stop very quickly, and in view of the situation that we're now in, there would have to be a degree of future flexibility to allow for phased reduction in development over future years. But I do not believe that one goes as far as going to the figure that the County Council is proposing. I would like to have a check of that commitments figure. [R Whittaker:] Er the County Council's given us a figure of roughly about twenty five, twenty six thousand. [speaker002:] Well I mean [R Whittaker:] That still puts the brakes on pretty hard doesn't it, if you stick it in a figure less than thirty one thousand in the last five years. [speaker002:] Well it's a question of balance I I the forty one thousand figure in my view should come down by a few thousand to reflect constraints in specific areas, I won't go into that now cos it's a separate discussion later on. But I believe the figure should be erm a few thousand below erm the forty one thousand and to that extent I would agree with you that in practical terms erm it's going to be very difficult even if the figure is twenty five, twenty six thousand, to stick to thirty one. But there is a question there is a p another point here that having got to the position we're in, erm does it How much are we going to be affected by the extent of the commitments? How much are we going to e judging what the true policy should be and how much are we going to be affected by those commitments figures? Erm if the if the figure were for example forty one thousand, er would you still say that there should we'd be putting the brakes on the train on too hard? I let's say there are forty five thousand yet the figures are forty one thousand, well where does one stop. How far are we going to be driven by commitments. [R Whittaker:] I interpret commitments as being inescapable and therefore they're going to happen. [speaker002:] I think the question remains or that my doubts remain that there will be a level of there will that one can assume a level of commitments which would be it would be sensible to try and draw back from or phase over a longer period of time. [Eric Barnett:] It may not be possible to phase [speaker002:] Mm. Well I have taken your point I think thirty one thousand's too is too small. [Eric Barnett:] Mr do you want to come in at this stage?... Peter, North Yorkshire County Council. I think the position on residential land supply in the county is set out in er N Y four, paragraphs thirty five to thirty seven. And in general terms they're something of the order of twenty five and a half thousand swellings committed to development in the county, together with three and a half thousand erm in in in draft local plans. Our experience generally in North Yorkshire's been over the last ten years that overall, there have been exceptions, but generally overall, there's not been a problem about local plans drying up and then allocations drying up over the period, generally. There have been problems with one or two areas but it hasn't been a a a general problem. In Paragraph thirty five er er er three, the sites allocated in adopted local plans and of course a number of those will be with us and available toward the back end erm of the local plan er program. So we're talking there for about something of the order of twenty nine thousand develop erm dwellings committed in one form or other er in North Yorkshire. Mr I think suggested that er on the basis of the level of commitment, in North Yorkshire, when he looked at the County Council's forty one thousand, that no new sites will come forward, well quite clearly that's not going to be the case, there is a substantial residue er which are going to come forward. Can I make some general comments on the three scenarios that you that you put to us. Well I was just wondering whether I could reserve that for sort of summing up Right. Certainly that that's fine. But can can I can I just come back to the point that... if you were taking the lowest figure, I mean how realistic is it to assume that you could actually hold to that? Well if you're asking My interpretations on the Mm. on the the light of the commitments of which a substantial amount are act actually planning permission, and some four thousand odd will actually have been built since ninety one. Mm. Then you it'll be extremely difficult The the the County Council You don't have to do it now. Yeah. The County Council, if we're talking about Mr 's erm strategy, the County Council would have severe reservations about going down towards thirty one thousand dwellings, we've got twenty nine thousand dwellings erm already committed er I think it would create difficulties over the period that the the structure plan er would run, would create undue tension certainly in er er in settlements across North Yorkshire, on the basis of seeing an absence of land being allocated. Er I don't think thirty one thousand is a practical proposition for North Yorkshire. Though I have no instruction on that, but almost certainly that would be the view of my council. Yeah, thank you. Mr do you want to come back on that? [Roy Donson:] Er yes, Roy, House Builder's Federation. I'd just like to pick up the point that's been made twice that there's no such thing as an affordable housing problem. What was P P G three revised all about if it wasn't about er the issue of affordable housing? And no less a light than Sir George Young actually said that the provision of affordable housing is one of the challenges of the nineties, and we are serious about rising to this challenge. And very much more recently, Lord Shuttleworth who is the chairman of the rural development commission, and this he said actually on the sixteenth of November this year, said, There is a severe lack of affordable housing in the countryside which obviously doesn't improve the situation. The biggest problem tends to be with young people, they will either go to live with someone else, or move from the countryside altogether. Now there we have some fairly eminent people recognizing that there is such a thing as an affordable housing problem. Yes houses have never been so affordable, but confidence equally, has never been so low. And in this particular county one has only got to look to Ryedale who s I so far as I know is the only authority to have carried out a comprehensive survey of local housing needs. And there they have identified after commitments, some five hundred affordable housing requirements. That's taking away all the commitments. Now it seems to me obvious that there is such a problem, er and to deny it seems to me to be to be denying the obvious. Erm the planning system, as now conceived works it's it's intended as far as I am aware, to work on the basis of certainty. If we have such a low requirement that it can be met from windfalls, small sites and recycling land above commitments, then that is not certainty, that is uncertainty and that is not in my estimation the basis on which the planning system is meant to operate on, so that people can invest with confidence. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [P Sedgewick:] Yes thanks, Stephen,. Brief comment. It seems to me from what Mr in particular said, that the bottom as it were has dropped out of the market to this extent that it seems that the policy that he's advocating, is not thirty one thousand any more, but thirty one thousand plus any amount of windfalls and recycling. And a somewhat open ended number. But I would caution you lest you be tempted to take that up, against putting forward any number whatever it be, and saying that er windfalls and recycling shouldn't count against that number but should be regarded as a a bonus. I and I daresay others round this table, have experience of other counties who've adopted that approach, or other panels who've adopted that approach and it creates endless problems and endless appeals debating what is a windfall and what should be in the plan and what should be not. But if Mr 's argument is that windfalls and recycled land are as it were free of any environmental penalties and can be added to his thirty one thousand, then I think that er the way to treat that is to come to a higher number which takes them properly into account. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [J Cunnane:] Erm to deal with Mr 's point about denying a problem of affordable housing, I think er he mustn't have heard what I said properly, because I've never sought to deny that there's a ho a problem of access to housing. There is a problem of access to affordable housing, all I'm saying is that you don't solve it by wholesale allocation of land. You don't solve one problem by creating another. The the as Mr er said, the way to solve the access to housing problem, is through the planning er through local plans and through affordable housing policies which are now enshrined in P P G three, and can deal with that problem quite satisfactorily. So I don't deny a an an access to housin or an affordable housing problem, quite the contrary, but I say it is a policy which is a it is a problem capable of solution by local plan policy, not by wholesale allocation of land as he advocates. [Eric Barnett:] Miss? [Margaret Rees:] If I could just make a point about affordable housing chairman, of course the department recognizes that there is a problem of affordable housing as evidenced by minister's statements but the view of my policy colleagues in headquarters is that this is most appropriately addresses in district wide plans and not necessarily at structure plan level. [R Whittaker:] Sorry. Can I go back to what Miss has just said? Surely that's in terms of where and how it is provided. Whereas what we're talking about in the structure plan is how much housing in total, of which affordable housing will form a greater or lesser part. [Margaret Rees:] That's right, but we would expect it to be subsumed in the numbers of overall requirements for housing. [R Whittaker:] Yeah. Do you want to comment on what five thousand less than your figure would do for affordable housing? [Margaret Rees:] I think as I said before, it would lessen the erm the measure of flexibility. Exactly which way it would affect it, whether it would be affordable housing or any other sort of housing is a matter for debate. [Eric Barnett:] Mr, sorry I you may want to comment in fact about the relationship of these figures and the emerging policy in Cleveland. [Margaret Rees:] Mr Chairman I feel a bit like an aircraft that's to come down to Leeds er er Bradford Airport rather than Teeside at the present moment. Er I think most of the problem is probably in the Leeds, Bradford er Harrogate area rather than our own area of Cleveland. Erm we have er approved regional planning guidance published September nineteen ninety three, which takes the allocations for Cleveland area through till two thousand and six at er fourteen thousand. We have er sufficient land available for development in Cleveland, er for eighteen thousand, two hundred and thirteen dwellings. Er we have er inherited a problem of over-forecasting perhaps in the seventies, with our first structure plans in the sense that the er employment was forecast to be much higher at that time. We have experienced quite considerable out migration er in the period since, and we do build in perhaps slightly optimistic erm migration net migration figures compared to the er O P C S er and and D O E figures but they are nevertheless accepted as part of this forecast the regional guidance, on the basis that we have a major regeneration problem in the area, to reiterate what I said this morning. Erm we are in the current process of reviewing our own or altering our own structure plan, the first alter alteration is going through consultation at the present moment and we're estimating a need within that period of of actually fifteen thousand which is marginally above the regional planning guidance. Erm looking at the figures of migration between Cleveland and North Yorkshire, I received yesterday some figures which which are quite interesting in this respect. Erm perhaps if you've got a pencil handy here. Erm the n the net movements between Cleveland and North Yorkshire as a whole have been respectively for nineteen eighty eight, four hundred and fifty five persons, for nineteen eighty nine, two hundred and twenty nine persons, er for nineteen ninety, two hundred and forty persons, nineteen ninety one, three hundred and thirty seven persons, and for nineteen ninety three, because I missed the figures for ninety two for some reason, they're not there, er five hundred and ninety nine. Erm this gives an average over say a five year period of about a hundred and forty nine dwellings per annum, if you if you divide that by the household er estimate of something like two point five household size, which is the current sort of level in Cleveland. Erm looking interestingly enough, at the Hambleton figures of I understand these are new purchases, which is a bit surprising perhaps, but over a two year period there erm this is table three in Hambleton's submission, there's a reference to the number of erm the origin of house purchases from Cleveland in Hambleton, and it would be seen from there that Cleveland erm produced a hundred and fourteen dwellings, that's purchases of Cleveland residents in the Hambleton area erm in nineteen ninety one to ninety three. That's over a two year period. And er a hundred and seventy one overall in Hambleton. Er sorry a hundred and fourteen in Stoakesly, a hundred and seventy one overall in Hambleton. Which is quite an interesting comparison to make with our own out migration figures. Erm we have er land in the sort of places which compete with Stoakesly although we don't have quite the rural environment, except as was mentioned, at Guisborough. Erm we we aim to get as much development in our area as possible and coming back to your first question this afternoon, I I don't really se any problem with the North Yorkshire proposals, that's the middle range. Erm I do see there would be problems if there's a lot of land released in the Northern part of North Yorkshire and Hambleton, in terms of our meeting our own objectives. Much of the growth that you see reflected in these figures is probably old commitments. And Hambleton are are being more restrained as I said earlier, is appropriate to our own policy. Er our only problem is that some of our housing is concentrated in rather large blocks, and that does put pressure looking for v var variety of sites in the county and we are erm getting a lot of objection for some potential development sites in our area at the present moment. But I don't see any problem, from the figures I've given you, in handling any of those forecasts really when you're talking about a very small proportion in our part of the world compared to the probably the figures that you're talking about around er Leeds, Bradford, Harrogate. I think I'll leave it at that for the moment. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. Er I I know you're submission was was was very clear in in in the sense that you said that you said that the figure proposed by North Yorkshire was would create no problems. [Margaret Rees:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Mr Just a very brief comment, perhaps summing up the and commenting on the various contributions that we've heard so far. Erm I won't really comment on in any detail on on the forty one thousand figure because it's ours and I think we put sufficient justification in for it. Other than to say I've already mentioned er in respect of Mr 's point about his view that no new sites would come forward at forty one thousand, well quite clearly a substantial number of new sites in the residue will come forward, these will be new sites. A more general point on the forty one thousand, again from Mr and Mr, is one I will describe as the er the doomsday scenario which is usually trotted out at er er at debates such as this, erm the effects on affordable housing er and low cost housing. We heard it in nineteen eighty and we heard it again in nineteen eighty seven in pursuance of the House Builders Federation's er views. it wasn't accepted then er and we hope er that it won't be accepted now because the County Council thinks that with the level of provision for migration development, er there is sufficient flexibility within its policy. Commenting on the thirty one thousand, er Mr 's erm er scenario, that the County Council would clearly think this to be erm unreasonable, it would clearly have regional implications er as I said earlier er in my opening remarks er the County Council would accept that it wouldn't be meeting its regional commitments, erm er it would be difficult in practice bearing in mind the level erm of commitment we've got and there may well be local problems in in local housing markets with the level of er of growth er at that level. As far as the H B F's scenario's concerned, this would probably lead to an increase in the building rates above the approved plan of around about fifteen percent. Erm I think that that in the same way as if we went down too low, could be considered to be er a change of strategy and I think what we're about is to try and reflect the currently er approved structure plan strategy. Erm I think there would be environmental problems, I think there would be major problems of sustainability because quite clearly, er scale migration into North Yorkshire would be accompanied in significant past by back out er of North Yorkshire, particularly to Cleveland er and to to West Yorkshire. Mobility in North Yorkshire is increasing dramatically, has increased dramatically over the last ten years and I think there are sustainability arguments against a level erm of provision at fifty er around that level. Erm and a I think quite clearly there would be a conflict with what appears to be currently extent government policy to regenerate er the metropolitan areas of Cleveland erm and West Yorkshire. We think the forty one thousand dwellings give sufficient flexibility erm i it will ensure a substantial continuing house-building sector in North Yorkshire and I think it marries environmental requirements with er the with our wider responsibilities. Thank you very much. Mr [R Whittaker:] Yeah my point is a brief one and i it's coming back to the the question of commitments that was discussed discussed earlier. Er and er the point point was r raised in relation to erm the thirty one thousand figure, that w er you're virtually at that erm commitment level already. That that seems to me to be slightly back to front as as a justification for increasing the figures. Erm in that er surely the the response to that should be well one should m more adequately er control phasing. Erm and and a point was raised in our our evidence given the existing overshoot of structure plan figures, erm the the the county county wide the figures have overshot the agreed structure plan figures, that should focus attention surely on on the need to to more closely control the release of the committed land erm er that is currently without planning permission, through the development control process. I think w w what I'd urge the panel to to consider is is perhaps looking at it from that perspective, to encourage the County Council to review the phasing provision of policy H one erm in terms of er how the the committed land is going to be released for development.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr [R Whittaker:] Sorry. [Eric Barnett:] Sorry pick it up. [R Whittaker:] Can I ask Mr,... to clarify points that you're making is you would like H one to be phased? The there is in in policy H one as proposed at the moment, a the last sentence refers to the issue of phasing. Erm but the the point I'm making is that existing figures erm for the existing sorry the figures for the existing structure plan indicate that there's been an overshoot on agreed figures. And and that to me is indicative albeit er in a small way of a failure to adequately phase the release of land albeit that the figures I accept are are relatively small. Erm logic suggests surely that that erm one should concentrate on the adequacy of the phasing er the existing phasing mechanism, and the words within policy H one and the guidance that the county is giving to the to the district authorities, in how they should phase the release of the committed land. Erm and and I think that is I think you'll agree that's looking at the problem from s from from the other side. Er and not saying that, Well because erm twenty nine thousand er dwellings are already committed, we've therefore got to we've therefore got to provide more, because that will be eaten up fairly quickly. Er that to me suggests that one should focus attention on on the phasing mechanisms for the release of that land. I understand that's the point you're making. What I'm not clear about is whether you are suggesting that the panel, make some strong comments in their report to the County Council on the need for appropriate phasing, or whether the panel should recommend that policy H one be divided into phasing periods. Erm I think I think what I'm suggesting is that the that the the panel should should er advise the County Council as to how they should address the phasing issue. Whether that is done erm well I I I I I don't have an immediate solution as to what what the way in which you may wish to advise the the County Council on how to do that. What I'm suggesting is is that that is perhaps something that the panel should dwell on in their deliberations and their advice to to the county. So I think it it is an issue that perhaps hasn't been addressed in our discussions erm hitherto and and and seems to me from from past evidence to sugg to be an issue that does need to be to be looked at. I see my question's provoked Miss to pick up her name. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [R Whittaker:] not to wave it about. Erm can I ask Miss, your view on phasing the structure plan? [Margaret Rees:] As I'm sure you probably know better than me Miss, the department blows hot and cold on phasing. Phasing is currently an in word. Again my my personal view is that I think phasing has got a lot a lot going for it but I do not know how you could phase current commitments, because after all those those are on the table now. [R Whittaker:] The wind is warm this week. [Margaret Rees:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Mr [Roy Donson:] Thank you. Roy, House Builders Federation. Erm a few comments I'd like to start with with Cleveland and the erm the idea that there's there's there's there's no problem whatsoever in accommodating erm the overspill if I can put it that way or the retention within Cleveland. As I understand it the Cleveland structure plan proposes the same number of dwellings for erm its next period which happens to be fourteen years, as it did for the last fourteen of the of the previous structure plan, fifteen thousand seven hundred. But it's interesting that the distribution of those dwellings is very different. And on the new proposal, the distribution favours Hartlepool as opposed to Stockton-on-Tees. And erm I would suggest that additional favouring of Hartlepool will do nothing whatsoever for the relationship with with North Yorkshire. And in fact Hartlepool is much more related to to Durham than it is to er North Yorkshire. Erm Mr mentioned the issue of building rates and that the proposal by the H B F would be in excess of the building rates. Well yes, of course it would, I submit to you that building rates are in that context are are an irrelevance because erm all that building rates tell you is what's been built in the past. They don't tell you anything about what's needed in the future. I'll come back to the issue of sustainability I think under one B when we get to individual districts, but it does seem to me it's rather overstated. And then Mr then erm dismissed my concerns for affordable supply in that it had all been said before. I wasn't aware that in nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty seven, the government had the same policies it does now. And one of the features of the current policy is that affordable supply is partly a matter to be negotiated and it's very important that it's negotiated out of the general er supply made by private sector builders. The point that I've been making with the various percentages is that those negotiations will become unrealistic if on average, you're talking about forty some percent of sites having to go for affordable housing on a negotiated basis. It simply would not happen. And there will be a shortfall of that amount. Obviously some supply would would occur because housing associations will build wholly on some sites. But as a general rule there w because it has to be negotiated, it would not be er supplied. And erm so I don't think the issues of affordable supply are quite the same as they have been in the past and I think it's a very relevant consideration for this particular structure plan.... [Eric Barnett:] Thank you Mr. And Mr has been waiting patiently. something you want to go back on? [Dave Girt:] Yes chair. Dave, Leeds City. Er I wanted to come back on the question of regeneration and the opportunities in Leeds. A number of speakers have suggested that er there are vast areas of brown field sites in Leeds just waiting to have houses plonked on them. Which would relieve the need to use er so called green field sites in North Yorkshire. That's not the case. We've exhaustively surveyed Leeds time and again to find these erm so called brown field sites which our own residents suggest are there. And there just there are just not enough in suitable locations for housing, to meet the needs of Leeds. That's why we ourselves have had to take our own greenbelt land. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr are you going to say much the same? [W Caulfield (bill):] just to erm reiterate the comments for Bradford To point out that er in the deposit U D P, we've been only able to allocate er approximately ten percent of our new allocations in the existing urban area. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Mr, do you want to tell us about the delights of Hartlepool [Stephen Grigson:] No I I just want to refute the the point that was made there chairman, because er it isn't er it isn't accurate. Er out of the eighteen thousand two hundred and thirteen dwellings, three hundred and er three thousand one hundred and sixty nine are in Langbar adjoining Cle er North Yorkshire, three thousand two hundred and thirty three dwellings are in Middlesbrough adjoining North Yorkshire, and seven thousand eight hundred and thirty four dwellings are in Stockton, of which four thousand three hundred are at Ingleby which d, directly also adjoins the North Yorkshire boundary, so I I think that I must make that quite clear that the majority of these dwellings provided for in the Cleveland structure plan are erm comparable in terms of er the that area. The only difference is that I suppose er at we have er which is development in North Stockton, we have er erm permission for four hundred erm executive dwellings which is the sort of er market which you could have been looking for at in the past. And we are making provision for executive housing in our area as well as erm er outside the area. In a sense. [Eric Barnett:] So effectively what you're saying is a sizable proportion of your... proposals are South of the Tees. [Stephen Grigson:] That's correct. [Eric Barnett:] Right. And talking of tea [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Can we resume at three thirty please. [tape change] sentence please.... Now unless anybody's got a burning desire to pursue the question which I posed at two o'clock, and from my point of view I think we tested it to destruction. Er I'd like to go for some little light relief at this time of the day, and look at sources of supply. Now I I think I would like to ask the county to come in and deal with this question of how much of their forty one thousand two hundred is new build and how much is gonna be taken up or provided by the conversion. Mr? [Margaret Rees:] Malcolm, County Council. I think I'd refer to our paper N Y four, in particular the paragraphs, thirty five to and including thirty seven. Which does indicate that something of the order of twenty five and a half thousand dwellings already committed through completions, outstanding planning permissions and local plan alteration in adopted local plans. [Eric Barnett:] Right. [Margaret Rees:] And that in addition some three and a half thousand dwellings are contained in draft local plans which have yet to be tested through the the local plan process. Of the remainder which is what Simon er twelve thousand dwellings, the County Council has made no specific on what proportion will be provided through conversions or through windfall sites or small sites. And in the County Council's view this is a matter to be resolved by the district councils in their own plans. The County Council does not have sufficient detailed information on the situation at the local level to be able to comment specifically on individual districts. On the the situation erm in relation to these factors. [R Whittaker:] Can I pursue that Mr please? And... you referred to two sorts of allocations, one, those in adopted local plans and the figure was if you could remind me please. [Margaret Rees:] Fifteen hundred dwellings. [R Whittaker:] The time scale of those local plans is what please? [Margaret Rees:] To ninety six. [R Whittaker:] None of them go beyond nineteen ninety six? [Margaret Rees:] No because the structure plan itself as approved only goes to nineteen ninety six. [R Whittaker:] And the time scale of the three point five K? [Margaret Rees:] Mostly again to ninety six, although erm some do go beyond. [R Whittaker:] So that in total you're saying twenty nine thousand dwellings, one way or another are committed before nineteen ninety six. [Margaret Rees:] Well, in so far as they have planning permission or allocated local plans. Exactly what extent they could be taken up in the period to ninety six, is not necessarily erm clear because we we don't know exactly when those are going to be taken up. [R Whittaker:] That is true, but if somebody applied for planning permission tomorrow or a or a renewal of planning permission, it would be difficult if not impossible to refuse permission for those to be committed. [Margaret Rees:] absolutely but that isn't quite the same as actually having been taken up and developed up to ninety six. And in fact the evidence suggests I that in the three years remaining till ninety six, it is most unlikely that those twenty five thousand dwellings will be developed, given the alteration at the present time. [R Whittaker:] Indeed. Thank you.... [Eric Barnett:] Well as I as I read it the Co you haven't made any allowance for conversions, you've made an assumption that part of the housing figure will be met by conversions. [Margaret Rees:] That is correct sir. [Eric Barnett:] But you don't wish to put a figure on it. [Margaret Rees:] No because I think that is a matter for the local planning authorities in their their local district wide local plans to look at the the way in which they wish to meet the particular totals for their individual districts. They will have a better understanding within their district of the the supply of site property that can be is available for conversion. And local factors which may affect future conversion rates. We do have information on the extent to which net conversions have been provided over the past well during the eighty one ninety [Eric Barnett:] Yes I mean I acknowledge that that is rightly a matter for investigation establishment through the local plan system. But nevertheless, how far can you go along towards giving certainty to for example the building industry on the amount of new housing which would come from green field sites for Sorry from the non- conversion element. [Margaret Rees:] Well I think the the overall housing figures which were contained in the approved structure plan, made up of a range of sites and allocations. They're made up of small sites, they're made up of windfall sites. The approved structure plan doesn't provide any indication of the way in which that can be broken down. Erm by including conversions this time round I don't see there's any particular difference, we are giving the district a global figure for their districts, which they will then need to look at in the light of local circumstances. I don't see any necessarily any difference by including conversions this time round. [R Whittaker:] If we look at the summary table P S O two,... and sticking column two, gives us annual average building rates for nineteen eighty one, ninety three. Our interpretations of that figure excludes any dwellings provided by conversions. But you said, a moment ago that you had some evidence on this. Do you have any idea what the average annual rate is for this? [Margaret Rees:] Of conversions? [R Whittaker:] Yeah. [Margaret Rees:] Well it is included in in my form. It's part of the appendices. Erm... appendix [R Whittaker:] What does it come out at please? [Margaret Rees:] Appendix five, the average is three hundred dwellings a year or thereabouts. [Eric Barnett:] And is that three hundred included within that figure of two thousand eight hundred and eighty two? [Margaret Rees:] Erm [Eric Barnett:] Those are those are new build dwellings? [Margaret Rees:] Right I'll have to check back against all the figures, if you can just give me a moment.... I'll just have to check back I've seen the table in this particular format. [R Whittaker:] It is your figure. [Margaret Rees:] Is it? Yes. [R Whittaker:] The two eight eight two yes. [Margaret Rees:] Where is the figure taken from? [R Whittaker:] Er the most column G N Y four, appendix three, column average building rates.... [speaker002:] It excludes conversions. [Margaret Rees:] Yes that excludes conversions. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [R Whittaker:] So that the annual average rate of provision of dwellings in North Yorkshire is something like three thousand one hundred and eighty two dwellings. [Margaret Rees:] Including conversions. [R Whittaker:] Including conversions. Thank you.... [Eric Barnett:] And you wouldn't wish to hazard a guess at all on on the likely contributions co conversions between now and the year two thousand and six. This is something just to absolutely specific about it, which will actually arise out of the work done by the district councils in their local plans. And come up [Margaret Rees:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Coming up with their best estimate. [Margaret Rees:] Yes I think they have the the best information to be able to make that decision at a local level. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you.... Mr? [Dave Girt:] Sir, a small point in the same vein Stephen,. I have taken understanding how if the County Council don't have any view on the level of conversions in the future and as I think Mr said also this will extend to small sites and green field developments, how they assess the environmental impact of their figure or indeed anybody's figure, because clearly the environmental impact of conversions is very different from the environmental impact of either recycled urban land or green field development. And if in the County Council's view, they're all equally interchangeable and the anybody, then I fail to see how they can have come to a a view that the maximum acceptable environmental figure is their forty one thousand. [Margaret Rees:] Quite Malcolm, County Council. Quite clearly, while I'm not prepared to put a a figure on the contribution that conversions are going to make to the period to two thousand and six, I'll be most surprised if it was a long way different from what has been taking place in the past. We're not talking of a conversion of ten to fifteen thousand dwellings with erm new building being reduced considerably, we are talking something in the order of magnitude of what has been happening in the past. To what extent that will be modified by by the changes in local circumstances, I cannot say. [Eric Barnett:] If if we pursued there erm tell me whether I get my arithmetic wrong, er we assume at most three hundred a year from conversions. it's unlikely to be more than that. You don't know. But but let's for the sake [Margaret Rees:] It it might It might be more [Eric Barnett:] let's for the sake of the discussion assume it's about three hundred a year, then you're looking at another three thousand nine hundred during the remainder of the plan period. [Margaret Rees:] For the remainder of the plan period. [Eric Barnett:] Or three thousand six hundred. [Margaret Rees:] That's right. [Eric Barnett:] Which on the basis of commitment, twenty nine thousand, leaves an outstanding figure of just over twelve thousand. [Margaret Rees:] No because the figure I quoted did include outstanding planning permissions for conversions. [Eric Barnett:] So how many how many how many conversions are there within that? [Margaret Rees:] If you just give me er a moment to check my.... About two thousand nine hundred dwellings. [Eric Barnett:] Two thousand nine hundred. [Margaret Rees:] Yeah. [Eric Barnett:] So alright, for the sake of again discussion, we'll say that probably about another thousand might come forward. Although it could be more. [Margaret Rees:] Indeed yes, it could be less. [Eric Barnett:] It could be more. Erm and if it is more, then the amount coming from new build, [Margaret Rees:] Mm. [Eric Barnett:] is probably of the order of about ten thousand, eleven thousand at best. [Margaret Rees:] Well of that order yes. In addition to the sites that are already allocated or committed. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. Mr. [speaker002:] Yes thank you. Just on the conversions point,th there will clearly be at the end of the plan period, an outstanding balance of conversion permissions erm which will not be built during the plan period, just as there are two thousand nine hundred er which come back from previous to the well not automatically previous to the plan period, but previous to the position we're in now. Erm I can't see sir, how the districts would be in a better position that the council and the County Council to decide what the conversion element would be. One doesn't allocate the conversions in local plans. The best thing one could do I think is to go back to past trends. And those past trends show about three hundred a year. And I would not suggest that total of three hundred times thirteen should be reduced by the amount of the existing commitment. as I've just said. Erm I think also sir, you if you compare the county's N Y four appendix six, if you'll just look at that.... With the county's N Y five appendix three,... [Eric Barnett:] There isn't an N Y five. [speaker002:] N Y five is the H two issue where they [Eric Barnett:] H two right. I've got it now. [speaker002:] Well it gives a schedule of housing conditions in Greater York erm and I've been comparing in in turn that schedule with the schedule produced by the City Council on a more updated basis. And that actually gives an assumption of net conversion gains in the Greater York area. So it seems to me the exercise not only must be done, for the purpose of calculating where we stand in supply terms, but actually has been done by the County Council in respect of Greater York. So I think the figures should be erm three hundred a year times thirteen. With no reductions. [Eric Barnett:] Which is is again just assuming past trends will continue. [speaker002:] I can see no better way which to make the make the assessment. [Eric Barnett:] Until.... [Margaret Rees:] Malcolm, County Council. I'm not quite sure what it is Mr is asking. Is Mr asking for a specific figure for net conversions to be included in stage one. It does seem to me that's not entirely consistent to government guidance in P P G three which simply states that the structure plan would state whether or not conversions are included within the housing figures. It does not require that they specifically be separated out. And I'm not quite sure if that would necessarily assist the district councils in the preparation of their district plans. [Eric Barnett:] But if if if if you are saying that calculation of housing provision includes conversions, I'm somewhat some guidance on how much provision will have to made from new built sites, and somebody's going to have to make an intelligent assumption about how much is coming forward from conversions. [Margaret Rees:] Well certainly the starting point for that must be to look at what has been happening in the past as evidence. But on top of that one must then look into the future, the future supply of such properties, and the future o er of a whole range of issues which may occur locally and which can only really be decided by the district councils in their local plan work. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah I I I mean I got the point, but er where does it take the building industry or the district. The districts obviously will do their assessments through the local plan. [Margaret Rees:] Well absolutely I mean this is the way that things have always worked and the County Council makes a global assessment of requirements for a particular district and the district council then takes it forward with assumptions on small sites, windfall sites er and major allocations that they may be mad making. Er conversions are simply a different factor they will have to take into account. I don't see any difference in principle simply that this is an additional point they will have to take in account in their their local plan preparation. [R Whittaker:] This may be also a question which you will say the districts are in a better position to answer and maybe they should be forewarned that if you say that, they will be asked that question.... Do you have a feel of how much of the total provision that you're proposing in the structure plan will be development on green field sites as opposed to development existing urban areas? [Margaret Rees:] Er Malcolm, County Council. No I don't w we've never attempted to define development in those terms. Erm strictly in those terms by by district, mainly because much of the development across North Yorkshire is on very small sites er within urban areas, within villages, the extent to which you define them as green field or brown field sites becomes a very subjective one and I I think it's a very difficult line to draw. Erm and we we have never attempted to define it in quite those terms. [R Whittaker:] Mm. But this if I may pick up on the point Mr made, how then do you assess the environmental impact of what you're proposing if you don't actually know where it's going to go? [Margaret Rees:] But the environment The environment in North Yorkshire is not just confined to the green field sites, it is also confined to the the small villages, the market towns. And the character of those towns is also erm subject to pressure from development on what might be described as brown field sites and could adversely affect the character of those settlements themselves. Just as readily as by gr er green field sites. [R Whittaker:] I'm still lost for what in effect is the answer to Mr 's question. How did the County Council assess the environmental impact of forty one point two K new dwellings. [Margaret Rees:] The County Council took into account a wide range of considerations, in including the the information that came through from the local plan authorities, in the preparation of their local plans over the past ten years or more. On the problems and opportunities that they faced allocating land throughout the county. Erm the County Council is well aware of the problems they faced and the issues that have arisen out of those local plans and took those into account in the preparation of the structure plan alterations. [R Whittaker:] But the essence of your answer to the questions that have been asked over the last twenty minutes or so, is we haven't done it that way. [Margaret Rees:] Mm. [R Whittaker:] With which I'm left with an impression that you don't actually know where the dwellings are going to go in general terms. How many are coming from conversions, how many are coming from green field as opposed to brown field sites. What basis what did you have therefore for your assessment that forty one thousand two hundred was okay? [Margaret Rees:] Well I don't think you can expect the County Council and the structure plan authority to have an idea of where the allocations are going because that would be taking on the role of the local plan preparation authority. Er the County Council cannot look at an individual building and say, this is a particular piece of land which is going to be developed and this is going to have this particular impact on the environment. But [R Whittaker:] No I didn't expect you that you would have the answer to those questions at the level of villages, however I think it might be reasonable to expect that in reaching your view, primarily on environmental grounds, which is the major flank of your argument for suppressing past migration trends. As part of that appraisal, you would have taken some view. The alternative is that and I'm being provocative quite deliberately, I am left with an impression that what the County Council have done is add together input from district councils to prepare its structure plan. [Margaret Rees:] Well there's certainly been one element of the the input to the preparation of the structure plan, but there has also been some independent view on the the capacity and the the environmental problems that individual districts across North Yorkshire and West Yorkshire have in their ability to accommodate development, and on the pressure and the problems that those pressures of development will have on those individual districts, bearing in mind the environmental constraints identified both in National and in the Secretary of State's previous approval of the structure plan. [R Whittaker:] What were those environmental parameters? [Margaret Rees:] I think the County Council looked at government guidance in relation to the need to protect and safeguard National Parks, greenbelt, high quality agricultural land, to the need to protect the countryside for its own sake. Er there is a range of government advice on the sort of areas which need to be protected. Er it also takes into account the government's advice on the need to protect the environment and the.... [R Whittaker:] Did you make any quantified? [Margaret Rees:] Not in the sense that the County Council went out and did a measured assessment which said, Right this particular district can accommodate X thousand dwellings in areas which aren't greenbelt or which are greenbelt or individual factors. It was based on their general experience and their general local knowledge of the problems and opportunities and constraints on particular areas. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [W Caulfield (bill):] Yeah going to seek to fill in the spaces in your columns J and K since if you find that helpful. And to explain them. Er [Eric Barnett:] Scarborough. Is that right? [W Caulfield (bill):] Er dealing first of all with conversions, er J. We've got a figure there of six ninety and for the windfall sites, five seventy. If I can just erm refer to our previous experience of er conversions which I think is probably a little peculiar given the nature of a seaside resorts. Erm for instance in the period eighty nine to ninety two, we were running at an annual average of about a hundred and seventy four conversions a year. However the average, seventy seven to ninety two, er gives you a figure of eighty five. Now given the nature of the coastal economy and what has happened to us in the last ten years or so, we have calculated our conversions through to two thousand and six on a reducing level. On the basis that a lot of the big houses that were doing holiday accommodation and so on, er have have already been converted and this is our experience, so on that basis we have taken a reduced figure for conversions and that is basically the reasoning behind it. Now er thereafter you say well why six ninety and not seven ten. Er clearly the we have to you have to make a judgement on this. But that is the reasoning behind it. Similarly, er we have actually er taken something of the same attitudes towards windfall sites within the urban areas. Because a great many have developed in recent years. And taking up points about town cramming. So er I'm giving you that as an example, but I think that Scarborough will be atypical of the county as a whole because of the nature of the Victorian property and the holiday industry. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr? [R Whittaker:] Er could I just return to to the line of questioning very briefly that the Senior Inspector was was pursuing a moment ago with with the County Council, in terms of the assessment of the environmental impact that the forty one thousand figure. I mentioned in in my first contribution this morning a a concern about that those considerations that environmental considerations, even if they have been fully considered er are not there's not an explanation provided anywhere in in the structure plan supporting material as to how that's actually been achieved. However there there is there is I think some re there are relevant sections in in the county council document N Y eleven, which follows on which is the the county's as I understand it rebuttal to to the H B F's assumptions on erm the environmental constraints and how they should apply across the county. Erm the the impression I'm left with I must admit is that that that the cart has followed the horse if that's right in that erm the environmental justification for the figures has been retrospective. Erm I think, C P R E we feel we say this in our opening statement to our evidence that it should be the other way round. Er and in in indeed government guidance is is is states exactly that. I don't know if it's something through through the panel, it's the been put to the County Council as to whether I my interpretation of of the process is correct.... [Eric Barnett:] Well well perhaps Peter, North Yorkshire. Perhaps I could er develop erm erm the position a little bit further. Erm any suggestion that erm the figures that we're putting before this E I P have appeared out of the blue, er we would wish to er refute quite categorically. I you look at the County Council, the County Council is the National Park Authority. That covers about half of the erm of the county. Erm local plan progress is is well advanced erm er in the national parks and that has been the subject of continued discussion erm between the county and its national park committee, the county planning committee and its national park committee. There have been numerous meetings er between the district, the county and the national park committee on the problems of environmental capacity within those areas. The County Council also manages work on er A U M Bs the two main A U M Bs in the county. And the county's well versed in the problems within the A U M Bs. The County Council er together with its district council colleagues er has also spent five years looking at the problems in Greater York. There's another area, a substantial chunk of the county which has been explored ad nauseam in terms of er environment. When you then look at the bits that are left over, erm we've got Hambleton District Council which has er had the er er earliest I think local running down the centre of the county. There's been close liaison between er the county and Hambleton. We've an adopted local plan for that p part of Selby district outside the Greater York area, so already we've covered ad infinitum by by various assessments. Quite clearly the county's spent a lot of time assessing environmental capacity and environmental problems within North Yorkshire. And you can add to that the fact that a number of districts er have said that they've been consulted five times by the County Council er on various erm population projections. Quite clearly there's been full well perhaps too much too much discussion, consultation, assessment and implications right the way through the the preparation of this operation. The County Council is soundly based in pursuing a figure er of forty one thousand dwellings. Mr [P Sedgewick:] , and partners. It seems to me there's there's a very circular argument that that's been applied to this question of environmental constraint. We we heard just now from the the County Council, that they have looked at Hambleton's district wide local plan, looked at the constraints in that back to Hambleton effectively as housing requirement. Rather than establishing at a strategic level housing requirements, so that local plans being formulated can weigh those housing requirements against environmental constraints. Because at the end of the day, it is essential that a balance is struck between meeting housing needs and conserving environment. That can be illustrated by a complete lack of information in front of us on the that that actually applies any consistency to er the the environmental discount applying in different parts of the county. I'm looking at the helpful assessment provided by Selby in A seven double O four. Their appendix three. And that sets out for each district in the County a few areas of different environmental constraints. National Parks,, greenbelt and so on. There is absolutely no correlation between those figures and the degree of constraint that has been applied on districts. For instance if you look at Selby, at forty two percent of its area constrained, and a high housing value requirement. If you with Hambleton, forty four percent, with a very constrained housing requirement, a seventy percent constraint. I think you may say they're they're different districts and and Selby is constraint is all greenbelt. You can compare Ryedale and Hambleton, which are not very different. Ryedale has more a higher proportion of National Park, A O M B, local landscape designation and greenbelt than Hambleton but is unconstrained. I just do not see that any logic can be applied in this process at all. [Eric Barnett:] Yes Mr [J Cunnane:] Yeah,, Samuel Smith's brewery, Tadcaster. Erm to echo the point that Mr has made, I also regard this erm the environmental assessment as unsatisfactory with its particular interest in Selby. And er I note that Selby has accepted or resolved to accept the increased allocation from ten thousand to eleven thousand five hundred, subject to the District Council satisfying itself that the level of growth envisaged can be achieved without compromising the established structure plan strategy or the environment of the district. And it seems to me as Mr said, it's putting the cart before the horse really. The it's no use accepting a level of housing and saying, We'll accept that subject it not damaging the environment. What should be done is the level of housing allocated to Selby should be assessed in terms of whether it can be satisfactorily accommodated, and if it can't then it shouldn't be allocated. If it can, it it should be allocated. But this the way it's it's er accepted here is completely unacceptable in my view.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [Dave Girt:] Stephen from. Sir I very much share the best I think doubts that were evident in Miss 's questions about whether there is any real environmental assessment on which the county figure's based. Either a county or indeed at a rational comparative district level. I prior to this E I P read through N Y four, very closely, looking for this. And I counted the word environment and environmental, forty five times and not one scraptwo thousand and [Eric Barnett:] Comment [Roy Donson:] Perhaps Mr can confirm whether he was present when the county planning committee considered on I think three or four occasions, the er the various range of projections. Were you present Mr. [Dave Girt:] My colleagues were present sir and have informed me that the comment that I made is actually accurate. [Roy Donson:] I wouldn't accept that. There were a range of meetings, some private meetings with district councils when they've given the opportunity to discuss issues erm themselves, and quite clearly our members did in fact look at a whole range of projections before coming to a final view. Quite clearly it was a thorough examination and members had before them at both county and district level, the implications er of the various projections. And er they took the decision erm to erm pursue the policies er as as as set out in this E I P. [Eric Barnett:] Mr do you want to throw some light on this? [Stephen Grigson:] Yes er yes thanks chairman. Nice to get into that even if it is almost as er night watchman. Terry Selby District Council. [Eric Barnett:] You can continue your innings tomorrow you know. [Stephen Grigson:] Well I hope that won't be necessary. Erm reference has been made er a couple of times to the appendix which I attached to my submission, that's the map and the schedule of strategic constraints, I feel I ought not to let it pass without some comment. Er and basically that's I'm beginning to feel that I've thrown in a bit of a red herring here. Erm the only purpose of the information presented is to establish the differences in strategic terms between the the districts in in the county. I feel that is an appropriate er investigation which is being done by the county and and the district jointly. And I think it does demonstrate that in comparison with other parts of North Yorkshire, Selby is in fact much less constrained. Er and I really wouldn't like more to be read into it than than that. Er Mr also commented om the er consideration of the er emerging alteration and increase in Selby District's allocation from ten thousand to eleven and a half thousand dwellings erm and I would like to assure him now that we have completed out local plan studies, we are in the process of fine tuning them and and I'm quite confident that we will be able to accommodate the eleven and a half thousand dwellings. [R Whittaker:] I wonder [clears throat] given Selby's recent experience with their local plan, whether they can enlighten us as to how they have reached a view that the structure plan provision in right in environmental terms for their district. [Stephen Grigson:] Well g er going back to to my starting point that the relative environment of Selby the vis a vis the rest of North Yorkshire erm it's a point which I'm sure I'll repeat in in in the coming days and it's it's basically that Selby in comparison with other districts in North Yorkshire is significantly different. We don't have the the the same er national nationally [recording ends]

[Eric Barnett:] Policy H two and the matters which are outstanding from our discussion yesterday are those which relate to the criteria and also the question of whether the policy should include specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. However before we embark on that, there are two outstanding matters which were raised yesterday a and I'd just like to know how far erm progress has been made in dealing with those and one was the erm definition as far as it can be made of what is meant by the Greater York area. And also the compilation of the commitments etcetera by the Greater York er ag again related to the Greater York area. [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire, on the former, Greater York, I think er I did undertake to consult with the county surveyor on the relationship er journey to work er and commuting around Greater York and that work is is in hand this morning. I doubt whether it will appear erm by by one o'clock. But er it will be in, it is being pursued. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you very much. [Mr P Davies:] On the second erm erm issue the commitments in Greater York, erm Mr has has made good progress erm on this erm and he's been had discussions this morning with er district colleagues and hopefully we we are nearly there on that one. [Eric Barnett:] Will that be ready by the end of the morning or are we looking at Tuesday morning for that? [Mr P Davies:] Hopefully by the end of the morning, we'll do our best for the end of the morning. Now we we we want to embark on a discussion of er matters C and D under issues. But before we do that, er and you're having given to you a piece of paper, headed possible scenarios for panel reporting on the new settlement. Erm a very minor point, when you get it, those who have got it already, would you just draw a line from the top line which says discussed criteria, down to the box which says evaluate sectors around York etcetera. Now by way of introduction to this, we had some deep thinking last night after we'd concluded our discussion, and I have to preface what I'm going to say, certainly for Mr 's benefit that it's the if question, the if question. Erm as we see it, there are en two possible courses on the new settlement that in fact you end up if you look at the right hand side of that sheet of paper, with four possible answers. But if I start with A. If if it is considered that a new settlement is required to meet the housing provision in Greater York, then the first question that has to be asked is, is the criteria approach alone acceptable. If the answer to that is yes, then we proceed to discuss the criteria and the panel could proceed to report accordingly on those. If the answer is no, and here this is linked to the question of should the policy include specific guidance for the location of the settlement, and by specific guidance, it implies, should it be allocated to a particular district, then in order to do that, the panel feel that we would have to be in a position of having sufficient information to make an objective and logical decision on that. And that may well entail during the discussion on D an evaluation around York to decide which maybe the appropriate sectors of of app which is the appropriate host authority. If we find we have enough information, to proceed it's all ifs I know. But if we find we have enough information to proceed to make a positive recommendation, on the new settlement and the host district for that, then we would report accordingly. If we find or feel that we haven't got sufficient information to make a proper recommendation as seems likely than again we will report accordingly but there are implications obviously on that. And then finally, the other if is, if we find that the new settlement is not required then we report accordingly.... Does anybody wish to respond to that? [D Whittaker:] Have we missed any possible scenarios out I wonder. [speaker004:] ... [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Roy Donson:] Erm Roy, House Builders Federation. I I I just wonder what the opposition would think if you decided that the criteria approach alone was not acceptable and you equally decided you hadn't enough information to specify a location, where would that leave you? Or where would it leave anybody else. [Eric Barnett:] The ob the obvious answer to that would be we'd not be in a position to make the proper recommendation in favour of I I suspect. And that would be then a matter for the county to determine how they would proceed from that point. [D Whittaker:] We would of course fully report all of our reasoning at both the yes and no stages of this decision tree. If we had found good reason to say no, to the first question, there are implications for how we say no to the second question.... [Eric Barnett:] Peter [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. Er I'm still trying to digest the er implications of er these various er flows but just to comment perhaps at this stage on the possibility or otherwise of er defining a er a district location. Erm I would have thought and it's a personal immediate reaction at this stage, it would be difficult for you to come to a conclusion on the appropriate district location. Erm you haven't had the the figures of the local authorities erm on that or for that matter the public at large which I think is important. Erm which we think would be very important as part of the debate. And perhaps secondly erm there is not a body of information which has been submitted to er this examination public which advises you in detail on the various issues that we think need to be addressed leading to the erm proposal occasions and I would have thought it would have been difficult for the panel to come to a a conclusion but I may be wrong on that. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] I was hoping that we could actually [clears throat] tease out as part of the discussion, whether there is erm a positive way forward if if we if you are minded if we are minded to recommend the new settlement, then I would hope we would tease out during the course of this discussion erm the preferred or a preferred host authority for this new settlement. [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. Well I would be in some difficulty there sir because erm I have clearly this is a very important and sensitive er issue, one which involves erm one which would involve erm consideration by my members of the various issues, erm I have no authority to express a detailed view on a ma on a matter of principle, or indeed a general view as to wh as to which is the er the best location. Because I don't know. Because I don't know what is the er what is the best location. [Roy Donson:] We are of course conscious that of the position held by the County Council and by the district councils. Indeed we heard more than once I think yesterday, the district councils, they have no. However, I'm sure everyone around the table will be conscious that one of the things the panel has a duty to do is to consider what is in the light of national guidance. And national guidance does contain some fairly specific indicators of what is expected to be structure plans. The other point on that is that the draft matters for the E I P including matter two D have been known to everyone for some considerable time. The D O E objection has been known to everyone for some considerable time and their statement is quite explicit in what it says in relation to the matter of one D. There have also been several representations from those sitting on my left hand side, about the possible answers to question one D in the affirmative. All that evidence is before the panel, we have a duty to report upon it. It may be fortuitous that if we spend this morning discussing criteria, there'll then be a gap of one and a half working days for those who don't have to travel far to consider possible answers to the second stream of the dialogue. In other words, a no to the first question. [Eric Barnett:] I think [D Whittaker:] We have not made. But as with every planning inquiry, hearing or whatever, we need not to avoid closing the discussion before we have all the information we need to reach a decision whichever way we decide to reach it. [Eric Barnett:] I think just to amplify that point, if you look at the question which is set down under two two D. It's perfectly clear, should the policy include specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. If the answer to that is yes, then how do we go about providing that advice. Mr? [R Thomas:] Richard of. Erm I must say I share Peter 's view here that the er location of the new settlement, whether in general terms or by district, has not been through the public consultation process. And I don't see how the structure plan er i the way it's been progressed so far, can determine any one of those general locational criteria. All the while there hasn't been a public consultation input. And I it's a difficult question and one I'm not so sure has an answer er but I don't feel that one can be in anyway specific about, the location of the new settlement certainly by district, cos the exercise hasn't been done. [D Whittaker:] It would of course be necessary if the County Council well first of all, our report will as you know be to the County Council. It would be for them to decide what to do with our report. And of course it is open to them to take a contrary view to any conclusion reached on any matter by the panel. However if as a consequence, of a panel recommendation or of their decision on a panel recommendation, the County Council decide to modify the deposited structure plan, there would of course at that stage have to be a public planning enquiry. It may I I appreciate Mr, that that is a long way away or could be a long way away from the sort of public consultation which one. It would take place in a different context, nevertheless there would be that opportunity and no doubt the adequacy of a public consultation exercise at the proposed modification stage would be a matter for the County Council themselves to decide. [R Thomas:] Y er Richard of. I think that is indeed correct. I was a little surprised to hear yesterday the views of Mr about the need for this plan to identify the location or the general location of the new settlement. Er that is not a consistent theme within the D O E strategy. One only has to look at the Shropshire structure plan in which I was involved last year, and the Department of the Environment in that case had allowed the facility for new settlement without locational criteria. So it it would not be inconsistent er for a similar situation to apply here. That would probably take you to your er first scenario, if there's to be a new settlement, that the criteria approach alone is acceptable. That is certainly the approach the department took in Shropshire. And I found it a little strange they were suggesting that an alternative approach may be suitable here, particularly when th the evidence hasn't been put forw or gone through the public consultation process. [Eric Barnett:] Do you wish to comment on that Mr? [Mr Wincup:] Thank you. D O E. Yes sir, er ever since P P G three was revised at the beginning of last year, I believe that the department has been moving steadily in the direction that indicated but certainly my brief here is quite specific. The department expects a general location for the new settlement to be included in the approved plan. What I said to you yesterday, I hinted that there were difficulties we don't know how they are to be resolved.. We believe that for a structure plan to go forward now in the present state of policy guidance, bearing in mind that's on the basis of P P G twelve and with P P G thirteen lying in the wings. We believe that for any structure plan to conform with a str with a new settlement proposal without specifying the general location, would be. We've tried to persuade the planning authorities in Greater York area, for a considerable period of time to try to bring about a situation where to this E I P with specific proposals, but for good sound local reasons, that has not been possible. we concede on the basis of the exercises that have been discussed so far, I think you will find it very difficult to make a firm recommendation in favour of a specific location., albeit on a district basis. I think you'll find it very difficult to do. And maybe at the end of the day, the County Council will have to come to a conclusion, after you've made your general recommendations, with or without a location maybe th they will decide that having gone through a consultation exercise, they're only course is to modify the proposals which would then have to be the subject of another E I P. Now I hope that doesn't r ring alarm bells. Certainly that would be o o one scenario which I think the county will have to contemplate. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [Mr P Davies:] Peter, er North Yorkshire. Can I just pick up a a couple of points please. First of all in response to to Miss. I I accept that er the government guidance as Miss has suggested and reinforced by Mr does suggest a policy is that there should be that er increased level er of detail erm in the structure plan. I think the the position of the County Council is twofold. First of all, we feel that a step by step approach whereby we move from options to preferred option to a formal debate e on the principle erm of erm of of the strategy. Er that's basically I think a an approach which the County Counci er which the public at large has er has found acceptable. Er we would find it difficult to justify public concern about a specific location er in advance of a decision erm the principle so we would prefer er a step by step approach er which reflects the special circumstances er of Greater York, and I think Greater York is a special circumstance if only because of the number of authorities erm er thus far involved. Secondly I think we would be looking to pursue erm erm progress towards a preferred general location as a matter er of priority. And in fact if you look at the the comments i i the blue book, erm on page thirty seven of the D O E, they have suggested as Mr has just confirmed, that we really ought to have made progress on that before there is an approved any move towards approving the alteration. That is what we intend to do and we intend to do it on the basis of the criteria erm that we have set out. Now I in terms of the fine letter of P P G twelve erm erm er that is not entirely consistent, but looking at the special circumstances of Greater York, erm erm and the long time you've spent on this, trying to reassure the public that we will do this properly, we think it's the best way to proceed. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Er Mr [M Courcier:] Michael. I and others' main objections both the draft plan and the deposit plan, is there should be a s a general location in H in H two. This is not a new matter, this is a matter on which the County Council could have directed their mind to for several years. I like I'm sure others, once the issues were published for the E I P, took advice from the Home Secretary and were simply advised that the location that that we should give evidence on locational matters to the E I P and that is what we have done. And we have given you detailed evidence. That was available to the County Council to do so. The County Council themselves have in fact produced a paper er which I have produced in my in my appendices which specifically identifies a preferred location for the new settlement. Admittedly that was not accepted by the Greater York authorities working party, but it is there for you, it is a base of technical information for you to use in your decision. In terms of what would happen if this if you felt unable well if there was not a general location specified in the structure plan, then there are two two two ways forward. One that that the decision will be taken by the Greater York au authorities outside the development plan system. That would clearly be completely contrary to the plan led approach which is urged by government in these matters. It would inherently end up a large enquiry some somewhere along the line, which would frustrate the whole purpose of of the planning system. Cos it it would mean the decision would be taken by the Secretary of State and not by the local authorities. Alternatively, the step by step approach urged by Mr, appears to be totally illogical. Cos the if there is to be a proposal modification, that must inevitably be the subject of another examination in public. So we are basically wasting another twelve to eighteen months, sitting around waiting for a decision on the the new settlement. It'll mean a third hiatus making decisions on where development should go in Greater York. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. I I take your point that yes you have submitted er a a proposal as have other parties er to the discussion. From our point of view we're not in the position and it would be totally wrong of us actually to try in public to to deal with those or to come to a specific conclusion about any particular proposal. I mean that has to be dealt with through the development control processes. Erm but nevertheless, that And local planning yes. Thanks for reminding me. Er nevertheless, under P P G guidance, erm advice, the new settlement is a strategic issue and therefore it's right and proper to think about it and look at look at it and try to determine whether it is possible to give guidance on a district location through this through through through this debate. [M Courcier:] Michael Michael. I I fully accept e I I hope my evidence in fact wasn't directed at our proposal but in terms of the erm of the general guidance given by the Department of the Environment that there should be a general location specified by district and by locational features such as etcetera. We feel we've given you enough evidence sir that you can come to a reasoned decision. We we think and I think that that the inexorable logic is towards the North East Ryedale districts of North east of York. So I'm I'm sure we'll go through that in detail later on today. But I feel you have enough evidence in front of you to come to that conclusion. [Mr P Davies:] Chairman, just a very brief point if I may. Peter, North Yorkshire. Mr made reference to the County Council considering a preferment. The County Council has never at any time considered a paper or come to a conclusion erm on the preferred general location for the new settlement. I wish to underline that fully. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning. I wonder if we could just consider the question of what is meant by the term general location. Erm are we agreed er wi with Mr I address this question really to Mr that this really means identification of a district within which the new settlement should be located. Or is the Department of the En Environment looking for something a more specific area than a district?... [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Wincup:] , D O E. Yes sir, the answer to that is that yes we are looking for something more specific. Not site specific but sufficient locational detail to make it that there're not rival schemes. Erm we've heard from Selby that they could they could provide possible sites for more than one scheme. I believe it's the role of the structure plan to specify the general location in such a way that unless those schemes were very close together, in terms of a site specific nature, that wouldn't be left to the local plan process. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [D Whittaker:] We did think about this point last night. We tended towards a view that when... there is a possibility that one part of a district might meet the criteria, but another part of the same district would either be contrary to or prejudice the objectives of the criteria, we might need to specify which part of the district we meant. Perhaps by reference to rivers. quick look at the map, the River Ouse conveniently chops Selby district in roughly half, and that there might well be considerations which for the sake of was not okay. Equally there might be considerations the other half was okay. And that was the sort of level of detail to which we thought we might need to go in those districts where it is demonstrated to us, of the district do need to be considered differently. I that is something which we hope will emerge when we talk about the relevant criteria. Obviously as the chairman has emphasised, we don't know which of these course we're going down, we therefor need during the course of the examination, to go down all. And it seems to us I mean we've talked about the different principles, the ne sensible next step is to talk about the criteria. Can I just confirm with you Mr, that what I've described in terms of geographical location, is getting somewhere near to meeting his objective. [Eric Barnett:] Mr Sorry [Mr Wincup:] Mr D O E. Fine as far as it went we would expect during this er proposal the nature of the new settlement to be specific particularly in relation to the transport of the structure. And we'll be looking for some general indication as to a location in a particular transport corridor. Clearly you're unlikely to be recommending somewhere that is not transport in the structure but you'll believe it's important to specify which one. [Eric Barnett:] If we get to that point. Mr [Mr Brooke:] Yes sir, very briefly er first of all can I endorse Michael 's first set of comments, I agree with what he said entirely, I think it is incumbent upon the E I P and on the stage that the county have reached with your such good advice in your report, to come to bring this situation together towards the strategic decision. I would endorse what Ken has said, I certainly am of the view there are overriding reasons which I'll come to in a moment for putting forward a general location, I had seen that as a central location which may or may not span more than one district. The criteria which we'll come on to debate, there is one criteria in there which I say overrides or is overriding in weight, and that is number eleven, to be consistent with regional and sub-regional policies. There are very significant sub-regional policies cross border migration which have existed for many many years. Those policies in my view, and I put it this strongly, rule out certain sectors for consideration. [Eric Barnett:] Mr [speaker004:] Er yeah thank you sir. Terry, Selby District. Erm can I throw another spanner in the works er sir. Cos what we have heard so far this morning is certainly placing me in all of the local authority. Er as you've already heard, the Greater York authority have cooperated for a number of years in bringing forward new settlement proposals but erm I have to say that I I do agree it would be helpful if the panel were able to make a strategic recommendation in favour of one particular local authority. My difficulty is as as you've already heard I've got no mandate to speak about particular locations or even sectors within Selby District although clearly I do have a mandate as I already have said to come along and say that we feel Selby District is an appropriate location. Erm I had rather thought that that you had been given erm sufficient information already to perhaps make a straightforward simple strategic choice between between districts. Erm if if I can elaborate on on that a a little further. Erm [Eric Barnett:] Right okay. Sorry Mr, can can we can we leave that for later on when we talk about. [speaker004:] Okay what we'll just do just just a brief. It seems to me that there there are two ways forward that are that are being pursued in in in other areas. One one approach that we've already heard is is in policy. Erm which again wouldn't trouble Selby district, because we're we're committed to a new settlement. The alternative approach is the one that Mr in terms of specifying particular strategic locations. the reasons I said I I I I could go along with that approach as well. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr. [Roy Donson:] Thank you, Roy, House Builders' Federation. Mr raised the possibility of a second E I P. I would regard that as the nightmare scenario. We have erm there have been certain decisions made over time which has got us to this position and whether erm you agree or anyone agrees or not the the the right next step is to specify a location, nevertheless it's embodied in what's gone on so far, a series of steps towards making the decision. In my view, a second E I P would be a backward step. We've already expressed concern in other arenas about the way in which the greenbelt planning this structure. We found certain difficulty with the with the with the logic of that. But nevertheless we've tackled that and come to deal with it. But in a situation where we were left with the second E I P and we had districts preparing district wide plans and as Mr in his submission has said, he intends to remove the present article fourteen, direction, we are in real chaos. I would urge the panel to make a decision which enables us to go down a road of logical decision making to get the issue resolved one way or the other. If not we'll be in limbo land for a long time. It suits neither the development industry, nor would I suggest it suits the public to be left in limbo land for a considerable time. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you that's very helpful Mr. Mr Ned, Leeds City Council. As the panel knows, chair Leeds itself is in the throes of producing its own strategic plan. The more certainty they can have from this enquiry, the better for us in making our own plans. So we would certainly vote in favour of a specified area the terms that Mr 's given. An the sooner, the better.... Having given you food for thought, I'd like to move on to a discussion of the criteria and can I say right now that I think it would be right and proper to limit our discussion this morning to the criteria. What I would like to do is to come back on Monday sorry Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday. To look at possible locations and I would hope and expect to have a positive contribution from the district council representatives on that, and the county. And finally can I reemphasise that we have not come to any conclusion as to which road we shall go down on this one. But i I did feel it was airing those possible scenarios to get a reaction and I think the forty minutes we've had discussing that have been extremely valuable as far as we're concerned. Now can we move to a discussion on the criteria and I'll ask Mr to open on that.... [tape change] [Mr P Davies:] Thank you chairman I will be brief, Peter Davies North Yorkshire. Er I will be brief, I really want to cover two things er in my introduction. First of all the principle erm of the criteria and secondly the detail erm of the the content er of the criteria. As far as the principle is concerned I just need to say two things. Er first of all er P P G three and the question asked by the D O E as well that it's sufficient justification to go further than the guidance det out in paragraph thirty three er of P P G I think it is paragraph thirty three of P P G [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Mr P Davies:] er three. I think there was a feeling yesterday, certainly it's it's our view that what that paragraph in P P G three does is to set the basic ground rules. The basic ground rules that determine whether a new settlement concept does as I would put it get into the starting gate. I think there's a need or the County Council considered there's a need for certainly in the Greater York context, for further guidance to be given to fairly erm assess where the new settlement location er should be. We think it would be a sad day if local plans and structure plans were purely a restatement er of P P G three. The purpose of the planning system I think is to develop government guidance er and therefore we think there's a need for something further than P P G three. Secondly, er we think there's a need for a consistent overview of York, a consistent view of the issues and the matters that need to be assessed erm right across Greater York. We've already heard that Greater York os a very complex area with many interrelationships. I think there's a need to assess those relationships and those factors evenly and fairly across Greater York and if nothing else I think we owe that to the public er of Greater York. And indeed we did give them an an undertaking er that that would be done. That's all I want to say on the principle erm of the criteria, as far as the detailed content erm er is concerned I suspect we could talk all day about whether social should replace affordable in one of the criteria, or whether the full stop is in the right place er in another one. E we largely are perfectly happy to leave that sir t to the panel, having considered the views on the very detailed comments on the criteria. Other than that I want to make just three comments on three important issues which have been raised. First of all is criteria, criterion. One that the new settlement should avoid er the greenbelt. That I think is absolutely er fundamental erm to the issue, and because of the way the practically the the greenbelt local plan has been defined, that means it has to be practically outside the outer boundary of the greenbelt. Secondly, the issue of eight rather than ten miles. The county council very early on, in fact the Greater York authority, this is criterion three. Did in fact with the Greater York districts initially take a view that it ought to be eight miles. Subsequent reflection and erm consideration of various comments that we that were received I think rightly persuaded the County Council and the district councils that in order to ensure erm a proper search and a proper consideration of all the factors, er that eight miles should be extended er to ten miles. And I think that that is probably the appropriate ground rule erm all that. And then the other issue I think is criterion twelve, erm avoid conflict with mineral and non-mineral development. Again I think that that is er an important consideration in Greater York. That is not to say that that necessarily will discount any area, but in erm reflection of paragraph thirty one of M P G one, I think it is important that that sort of issue erm er is included. So that's all I think I want to say chairman. Er time is progressing erm and obviously I would be interested to hear the debate. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you Mr. [clears throat] Well could I have comments on the principle or principles of er by using criteria and then I'd like to go through the individual criteria or individual criterion one by one. Can I say obviously we have our own comments about these. Erm but to come back to the first criterion which says avoid the greenbelt, I know exactly what you mean when you say avoid the greenbelt, but if in the context of the wording before that where it says to be located beyond the outer boundary of the York greenbelt, do you need to have criterion one? Or is there another greenbelt which may also be er affected by a new settlement proposal? [Mr P Davies:] I think erm as far as the green belt is policy H two in terms of its general presumption does direct erm erm the new settlement beyond the outer boundary of the greenbelt. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [Mr P Davies:] Erm the criterion one that has been avoi has been described as a avoid the greenbelt to reflect the possibility or the theoretical possibility that er a new settlement could be er provided shall we say erm erm n on the inner edge of the greenbelt, if the scenario arose that the final definition of the York greenbelt did allow for that possibility to emerge. I think it's very unlikely but I think it described as one avoid the greenbelt, to be seen to be er encompassing all possibilities. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. Sorry I I have to cut across my advice to everybody else there. [clears throat] It does strike me though as a that A that one of the basic points is that if this is going in as structure plan guidance then we have to be satisfied that these are in fact criteria which can operate at the strategic level. Er and the other point which e you might like to comment is are they in effect set out in any order of precedence. A descending order or pri importance f in in terms of the strategic thinking. [Mr P Davies:] Taking Peter, North Yorkshire. Taking the second point first, no there is no implied priority erm accorded to any of the criteria erm reflected in the order in which they are set out. I think it is certainly the members er input is required to balance and weight perhaps individual criteria when they have a body er of information before them, but certainly er there is no intention to er er to er weight the criteria or to imply that er one is er more or less important than twelve. [D Whittaker:] I think it would be very helpful if participants could give us their views [Mr P Davies:] Mm. [D Whittaker:] as to whether there should be any order of priority. I think it would also be helpful to have participants reactions to the nature of the criteria. [Mr P Davies:] Mm. [D Whittaker:] Are they about what the new settlement should be like, if so is that an appropriate consideration for the structure plan. As opposed to are they about where the new settlement should be generally located? Which I know Mr will tell us is a matter for the structure plan. So I think there are a number of questions about the principle about the nature of criteria, what would be appropriate in a structure plan, what would not be appropriate in a structure plan as well as, would it be helpful, unhelpful, impossible to have some order of priority. [Eric Barnett:] Mr and and and then Mr [Mr Wincup:] , D O E. Er can I just respond briefly to Mr 's first point to to confirm that we've absolutely no objection to a more detailed set of criteria being included in the plan than is contained in P P G three. Er we wouldn't want the plan to be inhibited in that way. I if I can just remind participants of what we said in our original objection, that further justification will be required to demonstrate that the level of detail proposed in the deposited policy H two is not incompatible with P P G three and does not involve over detailed or unduly restrictive policy guidance. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Wincup:] Now we would expect that justification to emerge from this examination and in due course to be embodied in the er lower case script for the alteration itself. But er I just wanted to confirm that we've no objection to more detailed set of criteria being included. [Roy Donson:] Can I [Eric Barnett:] Pro provided they're relevant at this level. [Mr Wincup:] Quite so sir. [Roy Donson:] Did you say, included in the lower case. [Mr Wincup:] Er, D O E. Er as you know er Miss er w the structure plan highlights the policies in upper case and the reason justification is provided in lower case script. [Roy Donson:] Yes I do but are y I'm sorry I'm not clear as to whether you are suggesting that there should be policy upper case criteria and some non policy lower case criteria. [Mr Wincup:] Er, D O E. Er er simply er that the various upper case items which are listed one to twelve, are backed up in lower case script. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Wincup:] And as we see it, that lower case script is not quite good enough to justify what's there at the moment. We would expect that to be amplified after this examination. [Roy Donson:] I understand thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Mr? [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning partnership. Am I right in erm my belief that in fact the the final version of policy H two erm need not and should not include a list of criteria other than those set out in P P G two paragraph thirty three. Because these criteria it seems to me are a means to an end, for us to decide upon an appropriate general location. Having determined that general location, I believe it should probably be at a district level but clearly there is a view from others that it needs to be a smaller area that that. It seems to me that it is then a matter for the local plan to erm promote or decide erm a more de probably more detailed list of lo c locational criteria, and then the local planning authority considers erm the alternative locations following public consultations and possibly invite erm schemes at that stage. So it seems to me if we can agree on what criteria might be appropriate to look at the location of the new settlement on a strategic level, the final version of H two will in fact probably be much shorter, more concise er than the policy H two that we have at the moment. Er and that's I think the basis of the erm strategy I've set out in my statement to the examination in public. The other difficulty I have is with some of these criteria and their use at a strategic level. Because it seems to me, many of them actually require a site specific evaluation or an area specific evaluation in quite detailed terms to be able to come to any sensible conclusion. For example, the question of minerals which Mr has erm raised. I think points to this erm issue erm very clearly. In the paper which erm was considered by the Greater York authorities in January nineteen ninety two, on the possible location of a new settlement, all of Selby District was ruled out of consideration erm for a new settlement because it was erm within part of the district is within the Selby coalfield. Now that flies in the face of erm I think the er the real position on the ground, which is that a development could take place within that district, even where areas have not yet been mined, without any adverse impact on the either the coalfield or the new settlement. And yet on that one issue, taken on its own, Selby District is ruled out. And there are others, agricultural land, again is a very site specific evaluation I think from this si erm generally. We recognize that any new settlement site er in the area around Greater York is likely to involve the loss of some better quality agricu har er agricultural land. And it seems to me that the use of these therefore at strategic level, many of them can only really be used if you're prepared to make erm huge assumptions or huge leaps of the imagination. And I in I invite I suppose the County Council really to respond to this issue of how they would intend erm indeed the districts, how they would intend to use these criteria certainly in a more rational and erm intellectually rigorous way than the sort of erm statements that were included in their January nineteen ninety two report. [Eric Barnett:] Do you want to come back on that Mr or do you want to wait a few moments? Yes. Mr [Mr P Davies:] Michael, Hambleton District Council. To come back on something that Mr said and perhaps take it a stage further. Mr said that erm the D O E would have no objection to more detailed criteria in the structure plan policy erm than erm included in paragraph thirty three of P P G three. I would perhaps add that erm the structure plan policy shouldn't exclude criteria that er are in P P G three. And I would erm particularly d draw your attention to criteria two there that erm the proposal should have district council support which I think is an important point of principle. And indeed if the panel are minded to recommend erm a criteria based policy of this nature, we would recommend the inclusion of this important point of principle.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr [D Whittaker:] Tony,. I think there is a very real need for strategic guidance to be given by appropriate criteria being included in policy H two. However in my written statement, I have suggested that certain of the criteria are going to be more appropriate to a local plan rather than to a structure plan. My general comment with regard to the criterion number four is that more emphasis could be made upon the need to reduce car dependency [Eric Barnett:] Yeah yeah. [D Whittaker:] and alternative transport modes being promoted in addition to rail. Also I think that in criteria nine, that reference should be made to unacceptable coalescence being avoided. But my principle comment this morning is with regard generally to all criteria and with particular reference to criterion one, avoiding the greenbelt. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. [D Whittaker:] Now the planning system in this country, rightly gives the decision maker considerable discretion in exercising judgement regarding planning application, allowing all material considerations to be taken into account, and appropriate weighting given. However, policies that use unqualified phrases such as, will be or should only be, do not allow scope for all ma material considerations to be taken into account. Accordingly P P G three on paragraph thirty three states that a new settlement should normally only be contemplated where certain criteria are satisfied, including avoidance of the greenbelt. This flexibility of approach is repeated in P P G four, paragraph sixteen, where it states that advice on greenbelts where industrial and commercial development is not normally be appropriate, is provided in P P G two. Again in the recently published P P G six, paragraph forty six, it states that regional shopping centres may well have a role to play but usually only where the loss of greenbelt can be justified by the economic and social benefits of the scheme. P P G two clearly states that the government attaches great importance to greenbelts. and in paragraph twelve, sets out the general presumption against in appropriate development within them. However in paragraph thirteen, it does accept that in very special circumstances, exceptions can be made. While stating in paragraph fourteen that development plans should make no reference to the possibility of allowing other development in exceptional circumstances, nowhere in the P P G does it suggest that the authority should exclude the possibility that very special circumstances could justify an exception to be made. However policy H two as drafted, seeks to deprive the decision maker of the ability to consider all material considerations, by the unqualified use of the words will be required to and applies this to all twelve criteria without allowing discretion to be taken into account of any special circumstances that might present to justify exceptional development. Accordingly, the guidance given in P P G paragraph three should be followed by including the word normally in the policy requirement and the requirement for the new settlement to be beyond the outer edge of the York greenbelt so as to avoid the greenbelt, with then form part of the locational criteria one. This will also make H two consistent with the existing greenbelt development control policies E nine and E ten of the approved county structure plan which are still being retained and also the proposed open countryside policy E E two, all of which use the qualification, normally. Now my submission is not intended to be representation that the new settlement should be in the greenbelt and great weight must still be given to it's protection. However, no opportunity that otherwise complies with the locational criteria should be disregarded in seeking the best location for a new settlement that serves the needs of the greater York area. An area that was considered by the secretary of state as being five to seven miles of York City centre and is almost entirely within the greenbelt. Perhaps as a final word, I might be per better to echo the chief planning inspector Stephen who at this year's T C P summer school, said, Neither statute or policy rule out the practical application of common sense in unusual or exceptional circumstances. Thank you sir. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr? [Roy Donson:] Sir I I agree with the comments that Mr just made that basically policy H two in its present form has two functions. One is that of refining the area of search for the new settlement and secondly, more detailed erm criteria for the local plan stage. I think once you've refined the area of search and I think I agree with Mr on this, there are two or three key criteria. Namely if you if you take first of all the staring point that the new settlement should have good access to primary network, you immediately limit the area of search to the radial routes out of York. If you then take the point that it's beyond the greenbelt, again you've limited the area of search and if we take the point that Mr I think put across so well that it's consistent with sub-regional policy, you already immediately then rule out that part of the erm area round Greater York that would have greatest impact on the Leeds Conurbation. The other criteria just simply ones that common to an an enabling erm that we see everyday of of the week in in other structure plans. But because of the special circumstances of York we've got to first define and refine the area of search to a specific corridor and then the other locational criteria are just a guidance, first we take the proposals forward to the local plan stage. Thank you. Okay. Mr then Mr [clears throat]. Mr to round up and then we have coffee. [R Thomas:] Er David, York City Council. Just a very brief statement sir to er make it clear as was stated in my evidence I support the comment made by Mr, from Hambleton that the criteria based policy should include the criteria as required by P P G three to indicate the requirements support of the District Council. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [clears throat] Mr? [M Courcier:] Michael. I I tend to agree that the criteria tend to fall into two sorts. Er one being descriptive in terms of describing the end product and I don't think that's very helpful to a structure plan, I think that is a matter that can be left to to the local plan. And that that overwhelmingly is of course erm criterion ten. Now I also agree that these criteria are not of equal importance and I certainly would put the greatest weight on criterion one which is to avoid the greenbelt in fact I think it's so important that it shouldn't be a criterion but it should be actually be within the preamble as it is now. So that it's not a matter which is weight to balance. In my professional view, cos if the new settlement has to be in is ch is i has to be within the greenbelt then it's better to go for peripheral development rather than have a new settlement in the first place. Erm... in t the second most important criterion I would have thought is that it needs to be on a public transport corridor. And that again is emphasised by P P three and it goes back to the erm the o the object of sustainability and reducing C O two emissions. The the third and I think very important criterion is the need to avoid is the need to comply with sub-regional planning objectives. And obviously the new settlement is a very important sub-regional er planning proposal, and it must comply with the overwhelming run of sub-regional planning policy which is to avoid doing anything which would erm undermine the regeneration of West Yorkshire. Now I think that is important enough to be specified in the policy in as a criterion in the policy itself. The other criteria I I I I tend to agree with are matters which are capable of being weighing and balancing against each other and they are not overriding, but I think those three matter which I specified are overriding and would rule out any location. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [M Courcier:] don't comply with. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr P Davies:] Yeah, I think just my only summing up comment would really be in response to perhaps Mr m Mr 's erm request for erm perhaps elaboration as to how we would use these criteria. I think I'd start off by saying that it's probably and likely to f that you could find in the Greater York area, between six and ten miles from the city centre, erm one location which met every one of the twelve criteria, one hundred percent. Erm let me give you an example. Mr and Mr have er laid great stress on the issue of sub-regional guidance erm and the implication that they would be happy with a new settlement location shall we say in the south west erm of the of the Greater York er area. Now it may well be that er that may well be the the position in the south west in in respect of of of that particular criteria, but we would need to see, er how a location in that area, met the other eleven criteria. And even looking at that one, erm erm the south west location, one would have to say that the increased accessibility erm which will shortly be afforded by the dualling of the northern section erm of the York outer relief road, er would increase the accessibility of areas to the north east of erm er of Greater York er to West Yorkshire. And I think that quite clearly proves that what you need to do is a detailed evaluation of all these criteria, all of them which reflect as a appropriate strategic guidance, to come er er to a balanced view. And it's not going to be difficult and at the end of the day, someone is going to have to I suspect, and it would have to be members initially erm who would do that, as far as we see it. Would have possibly to weight some of the criteria. That this is more important issue er er than that. That is the way the planning system operates, erm and I would have thought that the Greater York experience, erm does perhaps suggest that there may be some look at erm on the question of the need for sub district guidance. I I I'll go on no further than that. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Can I can I say that I after coffee I'd like to go through each of these criteria and try to distinguish those which are relevant at structure plan level and those which may be more applicable down at the district local plan level. And also I'd welcome comments er we've had one from er Mr that whether there are any things which you think ought to be added as well as taken away. Can we reconvene at er twenty past eleven please. [break in recording] Can we er now embark on this assessment or analysis of the relevance of the criteria? Bearing in mind that er we'd like to try and distinguish those which would fall within a structure plan umbrella and those which would be more applicable possibly at local plan level. And also I'd like an indication as we go through of the relative weights that you might want to give to individual criterion. Can er take Mr Sorry Mr It's alright ah. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] So do we want to take the preamble and then and go through one by one. Mr [Mr P Davies:] I'm very sorry chairman, er Mr n and I were checking er a point in response to a question that was asked to me during the break. Can you could just ask er again, I missed the [Eric Barnett:] Ah well I said we we'd like to embark on this assessment of the relevance [Mr P Davies:] Yeah. [Eric Barnett:] of the criteria and try to allocate those which would fall under the structure plan umbrella, those which would be more applicable at local plan level and added to that, give some form of weighting. [Mr P Davies:] Mm. [Eric Barnett:] To each of those. [Mr P Davies:] I really don't want to make any introductory remarks to that. Erm I think the criteria generally reflect appropriate strategic guidance but I'd be very interested to hear the contributions round the table. Right well we we go straight to number one which is proposals will be required to avoid the greenbelt. Mr did you want to speak on that? [Mr Wincup:] Whip. On the general point of differentiating criteria between strategic and local, I think that one ought to bear in mind that some have importance in both connections and particularly I would draw attention to the perhaps overriding points made in paragraph thirty three of P P G three, regarding the avoidance of unacceptable coalescence and positive environmental improvements. Those in particular have connotations in both ways, for example in the sc the strategic level, er they might result in a whole sector being excluded from consideration. [Eric Barnett:] Yes I fully accept that some of these are relevant at each level. Erm and I think we could quite happily define which those are. Does anybody dissent from the first criterion. Apart from my earlier comment that I felt it might be slightly otiose in the fact that you've suggested within the preamble that a new settlement should be located beyond the outer boundary and I did raise the question of whether there was another greenbelt which may come into play. [Mr P Davies:] Erm well the only other greenbelt Peter, North Yorkshire, chairman. The only greenbelt erm er in North Yorkshire er is the is is the West Yorkshire statutory greenbelt in the Western part er of Selby District Council, but the area of land the area of search that we have defined as about er ten miles would not take in any er would not be of relevance to the West Yorkshire greenbelt. [Eric Barnett:] No. So do you d do people think that criterion one is essential either at structure plan or l and local plan level? Mr? Council. I I'd like to see it retained chair because criterion three says generally within ten miles of York and er I'm sure somebody would er argue that well that's only a general rule still acceptable Well that we haven't got there yet we haven't got there yet. Well right er okay but erm supposing it was retained as it is, I'd certainly like to see criterion one retained in the list. Yes. [D Whittaker:] Is the reference in the preamble to the policy, beyond the outer boundary of the York greenbelt in itself not enough? [Eric Barnett:] Dave, Leeds City Council. Sorry chair my comments were in relation to the West Yorkshire greenbelt of course. Avoiding the West Yorkshire greenbelt. Yes. Yes.... Almost a double negative isn't it. But well can we move on to two and I must confess erm I'm not quite clear what is meant by this one.... [D Whittaker:] Perhaps I could point up some of the concerns about c the second criterion. Does all refer to timescale, size, land use or what?... [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. I think generally we think that that that it would refer to er to all three. I think the preamble the the the explanary explanatory text er with little two er indicates that really we are trying to address er erm a Greater York er dimension, that we are looking at a proposal er which meets the er development needs erm of Greater York over the period er that the contribution should be made through the new settlement. [D Whittaker:] I can envisage being at a public local enquiry th it would not be me, where a barrister would make a great deal of an argument that York needs a regional shopping centre. Do you actually mean that you want this if that case were proven that you would want the regional shopping centre in the new settlement? [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [M Courcier:] Er Malcolm Malcolm, County Council. Er I'm not sure in in the case of the the example you've given of the arising in Greater York that the question of a regional sop shopping centre would arise because that is not necessarily something that is generated within Greater York. The shopping requirements, the sub-regional shoppings of Greater York and obviously the accommodated er within Greater York but obviously something of that nature is is er is not part of those considerations. [D Whittaker:] It is an extreme example Mr, trying to point out the sorts of problems that arise in relation to policies which say more than they mean. And all has one definition. It is all embracing. I'm not sure that the word all is appropriate. [Eric Barnett:] As written it strikes me as being a hostage to fortune. Mr. [Mr Brighton:] Yes er I I agree wholeheartedly because I can imagine if this ended up in Selby what might be proposed under this umbrella. Erm bearing in mind the planning policies. Erm I think it should be quite specific and it should say the housing needs. I would suggest that all be substituted by housing. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning partnership.... I also have difficulty with this particular criterion. erm I accept the point that that has been made that the word all is too all embracing. And perhaps it needs to be restricted to the housing and employment er needs arising from Greater York. The other difficulty I have is in the er the lower case text which ex attempts to explain what is meant by this particular criterion, the sorts of considerations that will be taken into account. And it states,... that [reading] the requirement will be interpreted to preclud preclude locations which might positively encourage in migration or create pressures for additional land releases []. Now I am not sure how those sorts of issues could be objectively measured and therefore assessed. Erm and I you know would welcome a response from the County Council on on that point. [D Whittaker:] Can I suggest that the again the employment needs of Greater York could be a hostage to fortune. If I... have got the right grasp of what the County Council and most people around the table are aiming for, the new settlement is primarily about housing. But what is not wanted is a housing estate, but the employment that is related to, not Greater York's employment but the employment related to the level of development in the settlement. Am I right? [Mr Brighton:] Yes I would not erm Paul, planning partnership. I would not disagree with that approach er one of the problems in dealing with this erm criterion by criterion is that er I can't refer to other points I've made elsewhere on other aspects. Erm elsewhere in my statement I have indicated an appropriate provision of employment land which is related to the population size which we are suggesting for the new settlement. Er it should not be a an unconstrained figure for employment, it should be related to the economically active in the new settlement that is proposed. [Mr P Davies:] Erm Peter, North Yorkshire. Erm while I wouldn't disagree with with that general sentiment, I would probably disagree with what that figure should be but we'll be turning to that er next week. I think the general concept that we is that we do not want to erm envisage we hope we will not envisage proposals which generate a scale of development erm which is quite clearly not related erm to the needs of the Greater York area. And may be more related to to the needs erm of of of of of other areas. And erm how we actually measure I I would accept is d is somewhat difficult and I think it's based on erm a a an assessment er a professional assessment of the issues that are current to the criteria. I think difficulties in in introducing any statistical measurement to it and again it's value judgements er which need to be tested. Erm in due course at er at erm forums such of this. Could I just clarify one other point, erm I did incorrectly advise the panel on the ten miles. Erm erm in respect of the West Yorkshire greenbelt. And strict interpretation of the ten miles and Mr reminded me would just pinch in a little bit erm of the of the West Yorkshire greenbelt. So I if I put that in, I must apologize for misleading the panel. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Yes yes. Thank you. It's alright.... Mr? [tape change] [Mr Brooke:] , Associates. If I could just make a brief point on employment. While certainly in my earlier comments, I did say that it is highly desirable that there should be employment in any new settlement, it cannot in my view be the case that th York has certain erm Greater York, but York in particular as a city has certain employment requirements as a result of decline in certain industries. It also has certain opportunities, for example the University has already shown itself to be a leading research centre. And there are certain strategic reasons why the I feel that a number of the employment needs of York in terms of location, advantages, and other advantages, would not match with the new settlement criteria once they're put. And for that reason er certainly some modification of that criteria is necessary. So I wonder, could I just crave your indulgence very briefly. I have a a pressing engagement to go to. Could I possibly make my one one minute comment on criteria eleven? [Eric Barnett:] You can yes. [Mr Brooke:] Er I hope that won't disturb you or er Sir my comment briefly is I I did indicate in my opening er statement er yesterday, that there is in existence and I don't wish to make too much of this at this particular enquiry, but you should be aware of a new settlement proposal in the Leeds district, outside the statutorily defined greenbelt. That new settlement is while it's within the Leeds district, is on the north eastern perimeter of that district. One of the advantages of that proposal and its interrelationship with any proposal within certain sectors of Greater York, is the question about migration from West Yorkshire but in particular from Leeds. That out migration had generally been running according to the household projections, at something like two thousand per annum. It is projected to fall to somewhere round the fifteen hundred, fourteen per annum, towards the end of this decade. Thereereere ors of Greater York, is the ven? of thety two report. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you, the point which Mr has made yesterday, I think will continue to make. Mr. Er yes chair, I'm not going to repeat the point I made yesterday but simply to clarify that the proposal Mr has outlined is not a proposal incorporated in the deposit U D P. Thank you. But I I take the sentiment of Mr 's comment. [Mr P Davies:] Chairman, can I queue for your Peter, North Yorkshire. Chairman could I also confirm that the County Council would not be prepared to discount any particular sector in Greater York on the basis of one criteria, even if that was a valid criteria in the terms that er that Mr suggested. We need to look at all twelve. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you, can we go back to two, I I Mr and Mr, are your comment related to criterion two? Mr first. [Mr P Davies:] Michael, Hambleton District Council. I think bearing in mind the clear intentions behind criteria two and the concern that we've heard over the last three days about inward migration, it might be useful if we tag a rider onto erm criteria two. Perhaps I'm not suggesting this as a sort of erm a definite wording just as a s sug as a suggestion erm to the effect that the settlement should best serve the development needs arising in Greater York rather than the demand generated from outside the area. Something to that effect.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [Roy Donson:] Chris,. I can... share the concerns of er Miss concerning the expression of the word all in criterion two. I mean conceivably on the tail end of policy H one yesterday, the new settlement isn't going to accommodate all the development needs of Greater York. I think the the answer to that is that the reference e should be made to the village making a significant contribution to the development needs of Greater York, be it housing, employment or comm erm social and community. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Anyone else got any comments on two.... What sort of weight do you want to attach to this?... Mr? [Mr Brighton:] Yes I'm I'm sorry,. I'm in a bit of difficulty when you say what sort of weight because w we need to have some sort of scale I think but [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] up to ten. [Mr Brighton:] I I would simply say that I think it does deserve maximum weight because I you will not be surprised to hear, er take the same view as Mr from Leeds City Council, that under no circumstances should the the settlement be located anywhere other than in a location which will serve York and not Leeds. So it is strategically a most important erm criterion. But I I [Eric Barnett:] It's one of the the leading criteria. [Mr Brighton:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Put it that way. Mr. [M Courcier:] Michael. I think that two and a eleven basically say the same thing in different in different ways. Erm they are the crit the two criteria which I I consider alongi along with the greenbelt and the need to be located on a public transport corridor, which must be given the most weight in the in the decision making process. the need to avoid locations which stim which stimulate. I think the word sir I would emphasise is stimulate in migration from West Yorkshire, would be clearly contrary to all the established planning principles which have been endorsed by the Secretary of State time and time again. And I think it's I would give very great weight to this partic these two criteria put together and and I think they should be made more explicit sir. And they they should be an explicit criteria saying that locations should be avoided which stimulate as I say, in migration. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr, coming in or are you just? [Mr Brighton:] Oh sorry. [Eric Barnett:] A slight aberration. As as we've actually had policy er criterion eleven raised by Mr, erm I don'think there's any dissenting voice about the weight on that or the importance of that particular criterion, is that regional and sub-regional policies. I know I know I'm taking it out of order but rather than wait until we get there, this has been raised, why can't we deal with it now?... Mr? [Mr Brighton:] It it does seem to me Paul, planning partnership. It does seem to me that criterion eleven erm is has already been covered erm by implication in items er criteria two er and probably three as well. And I I don't see there is a need for an additional reference to those policies, it seems to me that erm the references to in migration pressures are correct as a consideration erm if you like as a erm numerical basis in terms of assessing what have been made in the county. But it is difficult, it seems to me, to to use them in a sort of very locational sense which is being suggested by their use as one of the criteria. [D Whittaker:] We've heard that... avoiding stimulating in migration, particularly from the Leeds conurbation is an important consideration, are they conscious that the rest of regional policy is something of a black box at the moment. And I think it would be helpful to the panel to have a feel for whether the Leeds in migration issue, is the only aspect of regional, sub-regional policy or whether there are other aspects of it which are important or be it perhaps less important. [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. On the particular issue of regional migration as it affects Greater York, I would suspect and we can probably put some information in to confirm this that the linkages between Greater York area and other county areas within er Yorkshire and Humberside, vary. I I I say probably quite definitely that there is not a great linkage between the Greater York area in numeric terms and and all of Humberside, compared to that linkage erm with with with West Yorkshire. Certainly as far as South Yorkshire is concerned, again we would have to say that the linkage social soc socioeconomic linkage between Greater York a and South Yorkshire er is very limited.... [Eric Barnett:] Er well Mr first Mr, please. [Mr Brighton:] Yes er Gerald,. I I have to disagree with er Mr of, I think this criterion is crucially important and in fact what Peter has just said, reemphasises my view that er the important sub-regional and regional issue is the relationship between York and Leeds in this er under this criterion. And I'd just like to take the opportunity to er emphasise the point that I have been making at this E I P that erm r regional migration from the West Yorkshire is reducing and we don't want to create a magnet which reverses that trend. Er so I would regard this impo this criterion as critical very er it should be given the greatest of weight and erm must be left in. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you, Mr? [Mr Wincup:] Er, D O E. Erm as you know sir, you've heard already er the department has not yet received advice from the region as to the content of strategic guidance. N we ourselves have just started to put together our first thoughts on it in advance of receiving that advice, but clearly it's much to early to be coming to getting the conclusions as to what that g guidance will eventually contain. I would therefore think it's appropriate to be in this sort of format er so that if any other issues other than questions of in migration appear to be relevant to this situation, then it can be taken on the move. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr? [Mr P Davies:] Yes just very briefly. Peter, North Yorkshire. I do think the discussion so far and the contribution from Mr and Mr is unfairly er at this stage erm prejudicing a proper assessment of er er er a for a new settlement all the way round Greater York including the Southwest and I return to a comment I made before the break, that dualling for example of the outer bypass of the York ring road which is programmed and is, will dramatically change may well dramatically change the perception erm erm of people to the to the west of the Greater York area in respect of the area to the north east. That is a fact, it is coming. Now that issue, needs to be borne in mind. Er in the in in the overall evaluation. So it's not quite as simple to say that regional planning, sub-regional planning requires er a discount a strong discount erm to the south west of York, I think the issue is rightly addressed and we need to address it, but I must say the conversation so far, and and the contributions, really need to be weighted in one direction. [Eric Barnett:] Er well I realize we're beg being given illustrations, but I don't think there's anybody really dissenting apart from Mr, to the inclusion of eleven is there. As as one of the criteria. [Mr P Davies:] Well I'm not arguing for the exclusion of eleven, I'm just trying to er give a balanced interpretation as to how it should be assessed. [Eric Barnett:] We we haven't got there yet, so let's wait. Mr. [R Thomas:] Thank you chair. Now David, York City Council. I'd just actually like to support what Mr said because erm the next er government reviews. The City Council examines travel patterns from settlements around York, and it was quite noticeable that a number of settlements to the north east of York did actually have a substantial commuting pattern to West Yorkshire. To. So I mean, Mr is quite correct in saying there's already a significant er commuting movement between settlements to the north of York and and Leeds. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr? [R Thomas:] Erm I have to concur with that but nevertheless, er the north east sector is further away from Leeds than the south west sector of York. One has to go through past or around York erm for your shopping facilities. One isn't gonna go past York to get to Leeds. If one is between York and Leeds, one has a a more distinct choice as to go to one or the other. My preference er under this er item eleven, would be to clarify as far as we are able in terms of the regional planning guidance that exists, to state what we f what is meant by it. Now we either are going in the direction this morning, or rather I think you're being pressed to go in the direction of seeking to identify in due course, what is the preferred general location, and this undoubtedly is something you can hang your hat on. It's not as airy-fairy as some of the other criteria that er er might be considered as relevant to erm try and find a general location for this settlement. I believe eleven should clarify that in view of the regional planning guidance, in view of the comments made by Leeds, er that it should one should state under this criteria that the new settlement should not be located on the south west side of York. For for for precisely the reason set under regional planning guidance. [speaker004:] Unacceptable. [Eric Barnett:] I think [D Whittaker:] Sorry I don't think that was heard for the record Mr. [Mr P Davies:] That would be unacceptable chairman as far as the County Council's concerned. [R Thomas:] Well unacceptable it may be in your present state of mind, but [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [R Thomas:] But we we cannot It seems to me we cannot end up with a blank sheet of paper, and draw a set of criteria up which says it it can be anywhere here. [Eric Barnett:] I think we're beginning to stray into what I hope will be a fruitful discussion on Tuesday morning.... Can we move to criterion number three? We've now dealt with one, two and eleven. Criterion three.... You've made a qualification to this have you not Mr? [Mr P Davies:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Mr P Davies:] There is a a proposed change put in on this. [Eric Barnett:] Anybody want to comment on that?... Silence means acceptance?... Mr. [Mr Brighton:] Thank you sir. Paul, planning partnership. I think we have to go back to what is the fundamental purpose of the York new settlement and that is to meet some of the development plan requirements of the Greater York area. And it seems to me axiomatic that the further the new settlement is located away from York City Centre, York City, then less likely it will be erm to meet the housing requirement needs of the Greater York area. And it seems to me that the outer suggested limit of ten miles is unduly generous and that there are more than sufficient sites available within a radius of six to eight miles from York City Centre. And certainly from my submission to you in the Selby district, I have shown that er the the plan which was enclosed with the written evidence. [D Whittaker:] How does ten miles relate to the definition of the Greater York study area? [Mr P Davies:] as a general erm guideline chairman, the Greater York study area has a some degree of consistency with the outer boundary erm of the York greenbelt which is generally around about six miles erm from the Greater York er er from from the City Centre. And in fact, quite fortuitously we did bring along a plan today which has a six mile radius, erm from the Centre of York which was er the subject of some discussion at the greenbelt local plan enquiry and by and large, erm there is some consistency between the outer boundary or the greenbelt erm and the Greater York study area, both at around about six miles from the city centre. [D Whittaker:] I don't understand that. [Mr P Davies:] That is the [D Whittaker:] If the circle that I'm looking at is six miles, which you've implied it is. [Mr P Davies:] Yeah. [D Whittaker:] Then the... surely the Greater York study area's more than six miles otherwise all development's in the Greater York area's within the greenbelt.... [M Courcier:] Mal Malcolm, County Council. The the outer boundary of the Greater York area was the parish boundaries. It's based on parish unions. The outer boundary of the greenbelt is based on physical features, they're not necessarily follow exactly the same features all the way round the Greater York Greater York area. Erm in some places the Greater York area or the greenbelt extends beyond the Greater York area in some places, the Greater York area goes within the greenbelt. [Eric Barnett:] The the memo I've got is that the new settlement provision according to the structure plan, relates to the the Greater York area. [Mr P Davies:] Yes.... [Eric Barnett:] But the actually new settlement would have to be located outside the Greater York area, as you are now defining it. [Mr P Davies:] Yes that's correct. It would be a provision both outside the erm Greater York area and because of the erm statutory definition of the greenbelt being about six miles erm from from York City Centre, it would also be outside the greenbelt. [Eric Barnett:] Which comes back to the question which Miss raised yesterday What is in reality the Greater York area. As distinct from what is the Greater York study area? [Mr P Davies:] Well I [Eric Barnett:] Are they are they coincidental? [Mr P Davies:] Well erm the Greater York study area has been defined and it is that area erm on the front of the erm of the Greater York er study document. That is the area which has been used for the last five or six years as the basis of the And that outer boundary more or less coincides with the outer boundary erm of the York greenbelt. Coming back to what is er er greater what is greater York, you would need to have to assess to look at the socioeconomic linkages with with er with York. And depending on how you erm which criteria you use, they may well vary. You may define Greater York on a erm on a different basis u if you use for example as against number of trips to theatres. Or shopping in York. But generally the feeling is that the appropriate sort of area for Greater York er in terms of the main linkages erm are is that defined in the Greater York study, which appeared to er find some support in the local government commission for example. As being an appropriate erm area to look at.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Brooke:] Ian, Ryedale District. Erm I think the proposal for rewording this policy to within eight miles of York is being unnecessarily restrictive. As can be seen from the map up there in the north eastern sector, the proposed outer boundary of the greenbelt goes beyond the six miles anyway, and is probably nearer seven miles. Erm there are a number of objections to the outer boundary on the greenbelt in that area which if they came u came up, on an eight mile boundary, would reduce the area of search to something like three quarters of a mile.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr and then Mr. [D Whittaker:] Tony, Congle. Er with regard to the definition of the Greater York area, I referred to this earlier on in my submission this morning, but it may er assist the panel if I draw attention to the Secretary of State's letter in approving the structure plan in nineteen eighty seven. Particularly paragraph er five point eleven. Erm with your permission sir, I'll read it out. The Secretary of State has noted the panels suggestion that the boundaries of the Greater York area should be outside the York greenbelt area. But having regard to the document Policies for Housing and Industrial Land in the Greater York Area, on which the County Council has based their proposed provision, and to which the panel referred, he considers that the outer boundary of the Greater York area, should be about five and seven miles from the City Centre, the precise boundary being a consideration for local planning. As a result, he accepted the housing provision of nine thousand one hundred as recommended by the panel, compared with the ten thousand one hundred in policy H one of the submitted. Following that er the Greater York study area er was defined by the County Council erm in consultation with the Greater York authorities and er as has been explained to you, it is substantially following the boundary of the greenbelt as defined. Now if I can just refer as I did in my earlier submission to the possible results of that, I suggested that the requirement for the new settlement to be located beyond the outer boundary of the green er York greenbelt, should be rolled into criterion one, the need to avoid the greenbelt. Now in criterion three, it also goes on to say, and have as close a relationship to the city as is consistent with approved greenbelt policy. Now it it just possible and I will explain in a moment why, that the necessity to avoid the greenbelt may not be exactly the same as being beyond the outer boundary of the York greenbelt. The reason for this is that in my submission to the York greenbelt local plan enquiry, I suggested that there could be a case for making an inset within the greenbelt to accommodate a new settlement. Thus excluding it from greenbelt designation. If my submission is accepted in the inspector's report, it is possible that it would be consistent with approved greenbelt policy to have an inset new settlement avoiding the greenbelt but not outside the outer boundary of the York greenbelt. it is for this reason firstly to identify the gree er the Greater York area as considered by the Secretary of State, and also to with regard to criterion three, er the question of consistency with agreed agreed approved greenbelt policy that I make this further comment. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Well you'll have to wait and see what the inspector says on the greenbelt. [D Whittaker:] That I will accept sir out of great interest. But it also follows from that that the panel here can make no assumption other then the greenbelt is as in the deposited plan. ,. Yes I appreciate that inclusion as well. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Roy Donson:] Yes, Chris,. Erm you'll see sir in my submissions that I've proposed a rewording of criterion three so that the Greater York new settlement should be located as close to the outer boundary of the as of the York greenbelt as is consistent with greenbelt policy. The reason behind this is having regard to the advice in the draft P P G thirteen and what we read in P P G twelve about erm trying to reduce dista erm distances travelled. And I think that in the balance, that if you have two sites in e the area of search that are equal in all other respects, except that one is closer to York than the other, then the environmental considerations of that site being closer erm to York would weigh in its favour. I speak with e some experience in the situation where two sites that will be within half a mile of that which was erm supported by the inspector, were dismissed basically on the basis that if I read the quotes for you. Of the western sites these are sorry this is also one of the furthest from Cambridge. Whilst there is no great dis difference in the distance of any of the sites in terms of, in aggregate, all the journeys which would be attracted to Cambridge, bearing in mind the role of the new settlement in serving Cambridge's development needs, would be substantially higher in money terms and in the use of energy than most of the alternative proposals. I would totally agree with that conclusion and I would say that in the York situation, you should choose the one that is closer to York than is farthest out. All other things being equal. [Eric Barnett:] But we have a band of six to ten miles, is that right Mr? [Mr P Davies:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Roy Donson:] S I would say that you're better off Chris,. You're better off rewording that criterion to say as close en er to York as is consistent with greenbelt policy. [Eric Barnett:] Mr [R Thomas:] Thank you sir. Erm erm get my mind round the relationship between this policy and the H one policy. Erm and it's something I hadn't quite considered before, that the greenbelt boundary and the Greater York area boundary is roughly. In fact it looks if if anything, the greenbelt boundary is slightly wider than the Greater York area boundary. In policy H one, it's talking about nine thousand seven hundred and twenty in the Greater York area. Is that the greenbelt. [Mr P Davies:] There will be requirement for part of Peter, North Yorkshire, part of the Greater York requirement that that is the new settlement required to be met outside the greenbelt and outside the the Greater York area. [R Thomas:] But Er,. Policy H one doesn't say that. [Eric Barnett:] The need to look carefully at the wording on that particular part of H one.... Mr [Mr Wincup:] . [clears throat] There is an argument for retaining a four mile annulus for the area of search for the new settlement rather than a two mile, because of the rigidity which at present applies to the distance of the outer boundary of the greenbelt from York City Centre. Historically this was created shortly after nineteen sixty one as a rough way of judging the submissions which had been made for sketch plan purposes on the basis of the nineteen fifty five circular. And the six mile doctrine has been repeated with one minor modification of wording ever since then. At the time of the greenbelt enquiry, an extension beyond six miles of the greenbelt could not be considered because a general revision of the county structure plan was not envisaged. On a general revision, there might well be a case for extending that distance in view of the development of the central area which has taken place since the six miles was first established. it has been considerable. And that has resulted in the restriction of the annulus width of the greenbelt. Er in other words the inner boundary has gone out since nineteen sixty one and the outer boundary has not. Therefore, for practical purposes, it would be better not to restrict the search area outside the belt to two miles now, but to have four miles. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. So in other words you you are saying instead of six to eight, it's six to ten. [Mr Wincup:] Yes. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. I think Mr was in front of you Mr. [Mr Wincup:] I do apologize. [Eric Barnett:] Sorry. Mr. [Mr Wincup:] , D O E. Just some points there. Sir. The area of search six to ten miles there. I was just gonna point out that if you were to refer to the approved key diagram, you can get a quite easily visual representation of what that embraces. There are certain things marked on that key diagram to give you clues. The position of Tadcaster for instance on the fifty nine to the west, the red triangle which indicates a bypass at. In the north west it's roughly where the A nineteen meets the east coast mainline railway. And on the north east it's just a little short of where the York Scarborough railway crosses the A sixty four. The only point I'd make on that sir, you'll see from that that the ten mile limit does extend across the county boundary into Humberside. And there have been er quite detailed negotiations between the two counties and my understanding is that North Yorkshire County Council have agreed with Humberside that on no account will their their proposals stray across the boundary into Humberside. [Eric Barnett:] Yes I I I had noted that that discussion had gone on and assurances have been given to Humberside that North Yorkshire would no stray in the sense of putting their new settlement into Humberside. Mr. [Roy Donson:] Thank you, Roy, House Builders Federation. Erm this issue about the extent er of Greater York. I I have a always understood the distinction between the Greater York study area which is an area of calculation of among other things, housing needs and the Greater York area which was an area in which those needs may be met. I think there's there there's a distinction between the pair and they're not necessarily the same area. And so the point that Mr makes that because you have you you assess needs within a six mile radius effectively, er doesn't necessarily mean you meet those needs er within that six mile radius. So there there doesn't there isn't a conflict and th and there isn't a conflict because we have the area of search for a new settlement which is established in the referred to which is broader than the study area. [Eric Barnett:] do you want to go back on it? [Mr P Davies:] Just very briefly, I think that erm the point Mr raised is a fair point and erm there may well need to be a good bit of clarification erm on on that. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [R Thomas:] Well e erm I don't want to dwell on this point but it it may have implications wider than just where these boundaries are. Er because the commitments figures we looked at and the need figures are are they the Greater York area or the Greater York study area? [Mr P Davies:] Sorry. [R Thomas:] All the discussion we had in the last few days. [Eric Barnett:] the ones that have been asked for. the discussion we had. [Mr P Davies:] The figures that erm the nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, related to the housing need generated within the Greater York study area together with appropriate allowance for migration, and that totals nine thousand seven hundred dwellings. It's on the basis of the the parishes within the area that we have defined erm as the Greater York a Greater York study area. [D Whittaker:] I think. And I'm sorry if this is going to ruin Mr 's weekend. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [D Whittaker:] It is not going to be helpful to have the panel supplied with the information we asked for in relation to the Greater York area devised from the H B F table of commitments, confined to York City and the greenbelt. I think what we need is commitments within the area of search. [M Courcier:] Er which month would you like that information?... [D Whittaker:] Well the area of search is defined on the key diagram. Which month, November nineteen ninety three, preferably before the twenty third. [M Courcier:] Er yes we'll do our best. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] [clears throat] Mr. [speaker004:] er John, C P R E. Just just er just so I can be absolutely sure about that I think I'm say I'm asking the same thing that the senior inspector's just asked. The commitments data that we've been dealing with to date, for the Greater York area, that was supplied by the County Council, was that data that applied to the what we're now calling the the the the greenbelt area, or was it the area of search as well? Because I think erm it it does somewhat alter the discussions that we've had to date i clarification of that. [Mr P Davies:] All figures that we've produced and are producing in respect of commitments and the policy element the Greater York policy element of policy H one, relate to within the area defined as Greater York through the Greater York. They have not been they are not the area covered by the er York greenbelt because as Mr said, er er greenbelt boundaries follow natural features rather than administrative boundaries which we use for the for the Greater York study. And the figures that we worked out are not the figures for commitments within the six to ten mile area of search. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr P Davies:] They are for that area on the Greater York study. [speaker004:] So just just on that basis Mr chairman, therefore presumably on Tuesday there will be an opportunity to revisit some of those figures in the light of the revised data that the the senior inspector requested from Mr. [Eric Barnett:] Let me see the figures and I'll dwell on that over the weekend. Mr. [M Courcier:] Michael. My concern about this criterion and and my concern about the information asked by the panel, is of course the area of search includes areas which I don't think any house builder would consider falls within the York housing market. It in fact includes quite substantial areas which are now in in fact includes parts of Leeds Metropolitan Borough. Therefore parts of erm areas which actually relate to the housing needs of York. I I like do support a narrower area of search for that reason. Particularly as in to the west and south of York, the ten mile radius gets you very very close to Wetherby and very close to Selby, which are not areas which fall within the York housing market.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr? Thank you, Lindsey, Harrogate Borough Council. Just to pick up a point on er Miss 's latest request for information. Erm the housing need figure we've been working on for Greater York has been nine thousand seven hundred and that's been based on the parishes within the Greater York study area. Presumably if we're now looking at commitment in the wider area of search which would draw in many additional parishes, I think in the Harrogate case er something like seven to eight additional parishes, er if we look at commitments there would we also need to revise the housing need figure as well? To look at it on a comparable basis. [D Whittaker:] I think there is a danger of too much being made of this. The reason we asked for the figures is to get a ball park idea. No more than that. We certainly would not wish to open up the question of need within that area. I also take the point Mr has made, and only assure you that we will look at these figures when we get them and take on board the sorts of comments that have just been made by yourself and Mr and by and use them with our judgement applied liberally.... [tape change] [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. You will in producing those figures chairman, ten miles have to approximate the ten miles [Eric Barnett:] Yes yes yes yes yeah yeah.... As best we can.... Have we Mr? [speaker004:] Sorry just just er John, C P R E. Just one minor point. Obviously erm in in receiving those additional figures I accept what the in senior inspector says about not er opening up the need side of the debate but clearly is I think the er Mr from Harrogate is saying it does it does cast a question mark on the supply dimension of the debate in terms of additional and commitments coming into the the figures to meet the Greater York housing requirement. So whilst I'm not seeking to change the the the Greater York I E within the greenbelt requirement as we now define it, the the supply side of the equation is bound to change because the commitments figures will be different given the revised area of analysis. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [M Courcier:] Malcolm, County Council. accept the point that's been made, we've got to remember that the commitments that are are contained in the band six to ten miles, are principally there to meet the general requirements arising in the districts [speaker004:] Yeah. [M Courcier:] and they're not there t as they are at the moment to meet the needs of the Greater York area. [Eric Barnett:] Yes yes.... Anyone wish to add any comments on criterion three or can we move to four?... [clears throat]... [D Whittaker:] May I play devil's advocate again? Erm two things occur to me from this criterion. First of all, the risk that... on the assumption primary road network includes trunk roads as well as County Council primary roads, is it right that we should encourage essentially local traffic onto trunk roads. I'm sure those familiar with P P Gs will recall their purpose, moving people long distances from A to B. Not carrying local traffic. And secondly, is it right within this criterion, to put more emphasis on car transport or bus transport. Road transport of some sort than rail transport. Which by virtue its of its phraseology, the criterion appears to me to do. [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire, chairman. Just to comment on the senior inspector's first point. I think erm one would have to ac er accept that in Greater York, erm the existing pattern of trunk roads as they affect Greater York, do discharge an important function in distributing people around er Greater York and it's entirely sensible in the Greater York dimension that they would do. If they weren't there and if they weren't being used, then there may well be more and more p pressure on the city centre of York, so they do discharge I think er a positive function. The bypass for example allowing people to move round er Greater York without passing through the er through the city centre and I think that's par part of the County Council and I suspect City Council's overall approach to traffic management in Greater York.... [M Courcier:] Michael Michael. I agree with the panel that the criterion should give greater emphasis to public transport, that must be in accord with P P G three and must be in accord with the emerging P P G thirteen.... It also should give greater emphasisis to the ability to link into the rail network. On the question of trunk roads and the general capacity of the road system around York, the panel will see that we have actually presented some detailed evidence prepared by and I and for the information for the panel on Tuesday, I understand that all that information is agreed with the County Surveyor as well. So that's w is an agreed position on highways. Now in we have also consulted with the Department of Transport about our proposal and the Department of transport have no objections to the use of the A sixty four north east of York to serve a new settlement. [Eric Barnett:] Have you got that?... Mr [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning partnership. Er whatever agreements may have been made with the Department of Transport and the County Surveyor regarding the acceptability north east of York of course doesn't mean that other locations are also not un not acceptable under this criterion. Erm I've expressed a view in my written submissions that I think the emphasis solely on rail erm access i is unfortunate and perhaps should be widened to er public transport generally, obviously rail access plus rail transport has a particular type of usage. Erm in terms of York, the pattern of employment er within York City is fairly dispersed and obviously isn't particularly well served by the Central Railway station. Er a bus system however is more able to provide a more diffuse pattern of access to those areas, from outside, wherever the new settlement is located.... I'm sorry, if I could just make on other point. You raised this question of whether or not I think the new settlement should link into the primary net road network. Erm in my view, it has to link in somewhere into the primary i into the road network and it's not appropriate to link it into er the local road system and er therefore I think it's inevitable that a linkage will need to be made to the primary road network. [D Whittaker:] Including into possibly into a trunk road?... [Mr Brighton:] I think if erm if you can avoid a trunk road then that is a preferable solution erm if you're able to rely on just County Council roads then that is a better solution. [Eric Barnett:] Mr [clears throat] Ed, Leeds City Council. erm perhaps I've misunderstood Miss 's comment on it but Leeds would not want the consideration of traffic consequences to be limited to roads within North Yorkshire. Depending on the location of the new settlement, it it could have traffic consequences beyond North Yorkshire boundaries.... Mr. [D Whittaker:] , North York. Er the point I would like to make if I may is with er regard to the question of a a positive statement er that car dependency should be reduced and er more emphasis given to the availability and use of bus transport erm as well as t er rail transport. I think in the context of the Greater York area, er bus transport will have greater relevance. It will be more accessible, most importantly it'll be more affordable. Given the relative costs of bus transport compared with rail. An interesting comment from the national travel survey, nineteen eighty nine ninety one report, is that trains were mainly used by those living in the highest income households. In contrast, local bus usage was associated with those living in the lowest income households. Bearing in mind that given a choice between the use of rail and car, the question of cost necessarily will come into that equation. If the costs are not significantly lower, people will til still tend to use the car. The other aspect with regard to the new settlement is that it should contain a significant proportion of affordable housing. This in itself I think indicates that there should be affordable transport as a corollary. The other point I would like to make is the question of the impact on the er highway system. I think, taking into the equation of er discussing and considering alternative travel arrangements, the availability and indeed the extension of park and ride facilities around York should be taken into account and an integrated transport pattern, based on park and ride should figure within the transport strategy. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr? [R Thomas:] York City Council. Er during my comments yesterday sir, I you'll not be surprised that if with a very strong emphasis on if, er the the panel do go for a new settlement, we do in York feel very strongly that er the issue of priority for public transport usage should be a very high one in this criteria. Er I note the comments made around the table about the the likelihood of rail based er traffic making a significant contribution. I would share that expectation that er a location which will be ra well served by rail, whilst very desirable from our viewpoint, I think is extremely unlikely er given the pattern of the the rail system in the area. Similarly with public transport, as I said yesterday, the evidence is quite clearly that er the public transport system is York i in Greater York is not good, and it erm is unlikely to be er improved by er the on the scale suggested I I would contend. But nevertheless, having said those, I would clearly emphasise the importance of those two elements of the criteria. Erm if a new settlement is proposed. Turning to the issue of the senior inspector has raised, as something like er get my proportions right, but something probably like three quarters of the York outer ring road is is trunked already. Clearly any proposal will have a major impact on the trunk road system. Similarly with the other likely locations, I know we're g not going into that, but virtually all of them will e inevitably feed onto the trunk network which does fulfil a dual function around York. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Mr is this something new in addition to what's already been said? [Roy Donson:] Well I'm [Eric Barnett:] Or are you covering the same. [Roy Donson:] Well I I I would express my support for Mr and for Mr on widening the scope erm to include because clearly national policy talks about public transport generally and not just rail. But just picking up on Mr 's point. In my experience, British Rail whilst wishing to encourage the use of of trains as they would, er are resistant to opening stations that just delay journey times. So whilst it's desirable to encourage the use of rail, I think in in in practice it's going to be er very difficult to achieve that and in therefore you should look at public transport in the round. [Eric Barnett:] I note your critical comments about British Rail. Mr. [Mr Wincup:] , D O E. Two points sir. Erm the County Council's phrase, an ability to link into the rail network, was geared originally to their proposal for a settlement of between eight hundred and a thousand dwellings. That has already been increased to fou fourteen hundred er you when you're making your recommendation may or may not come up with a recommendation for a somewhat larger settlement. Clearly the bigger the settlement, the more the greater the significance one might expect from the rail network in this context. Er the other aspect. Erm much has already been said about the role of P P Gs and the advice they contain. Er the draft P P G thirteen, for the moment merely reinforces the public transport points that are already made in P P G twelve. But there is further unpublished research on new settlements which we are awaiting at the moment, and it's our anticipation that when that is available and the Department considers it, it will update and er refine P P G thirteen. And our headquarters have have indicated to us that that might well include a refinement of the criteria which are presently in P P G three. [Eric Barnett:] Mm. Well we shall wait and see. [Mr Wincup:] wait and see. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [M Courcier:] A very quick point sir. Erm I I would have thought it would be helpful that if criterion four could be worded in such a way that it it emphasised the need to maximize transport choice. And I think that must be the key. Obviously i i bus would be acceptable in certain circumstances, it's obviously better if one has the choice between bus and rail. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you for that. C on that on that [D Whittaker:] Weight. [Eric Barnett:] What weight are you going to give it.... Somewhere near the top of the list? [M Courcier:] Michael. I think that in the light of the emerging government guidance, that the transport choice must be given a very s substantial weight in the in that decision mak making process. [Eric Barnett:] I in in the context of what Mr has just said, and I'm really talking about the way he's said it, but the way actually looked at the criteria, can I try to cos I would like to close on this particular question by one o'clock. Can I ask when we deal with the others that you look at them in that light. As a sort of principle against which a settlement will be judged. I don't really want to go over the grounds which you know you would seek to weigh different erm locations. We'll come back to that on Tuesday. What I'm looking for e effectively is a set of criteria which will promote best planning practise either at structure plan or local plan level, in order to judge the location of this settlement. So can we [clears throat] now move off four and look at five which relates to the need to er again I think maximize wight be a suitable word in here, er infrastructure. Particularly drainage and water supply. [Mr P Davies:] All I'd say on five chairman is that this issue of infrastructure particularly sewerage, sewerage, foul water and water supply is a major issue in York and the location of the new settlement I think needs to be very closely assessed in terms of er of five. I think it's a very important criteria that we need to look at. [D Whittaker:] I agree it's important, what I have no feel for, is whether it is something which helps to make a decision as to where the new settlement might go. What I think I'm looking for is some evidence that the severity of the infrastructure problems to which you refer actually varies from one district to another. If it is the same problem in all districts then it doesn't help anyone make a decision. [Mr P Davies:] Well it's not chairman, and perhaps Mr has got some information I think that might help you on that. [M Courcier:] Er yes, Malcolm, County Council. Certainly in the work that the Greater York er authorities did in preparing their proposals over the past er four or five years, er we have worked fairly closely with what was then the Yorkshire Water Authority and National Rivers Authorities on the questions of drainage erm and so forth which are our major problems around York. And there are certain areas around the city where a the provision of a new settlement is likely to create more severe environmental problems. [Eric Barnett:] No I don't need to pursue that any further. Mr? [speaker004:] Er John n, C P R E. Can I just make one suggest suggestion hopefully it's helpful. Er the reference to surface water presumably that's a reference to to flooding and the the need to avoid areas at risk from flooding. Erm I ask that as a point of clarification. [Mr P Davies:] Yes chairman. The the conclusions of the National Rivers Authority erm and the the Water Authority was that er in general terms er the location of a new settlement could have a significant impact er on local land drainage. Erm and that that really needs to be carefully assessed as one moves towards some conclusions on where that new settlement ought to be. [speaker004:] Can I just just Er is that something that perhaps should be explained in the explanatory memorandum with the discussion on this criterion in particular is quite brief.... [Mr P Davies:] Erm Peter, North Yorkshire, I think it's appropriately addressed there and I think there are so many elements of it that er I think you w you would end up with perhaps a very long explanatory section. I think the importance of the issue I think is fairly stated there. [Eric Barnett:] I think I think we take it as it as it as it at its face value Mr. Mr [Roy Donson:] Roy, House Builders Federation. I think in assessing this criteria chairman, you you've got to make a distinction between the N R A responsibilities and the Water Company responsibilities. Erm I I I would obviously take very seriously the N R A responsibilities but I think you've got to bear in mind there's within the water act, there's a thing called infrastructure charges [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Roy Donson:] and and and and and and in fact the the provision of sewerage and er and and water supply are are are a matter of of er things which are done on demand and er are are covered by infrastructure charges. And and the shortage of er sewerage as such is not as su as such a criteria to on which to judge the provision of the new settlement because that's part and parcel of the infrastructure that would be provided. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. Six. To avoid the best and most versatile agricultural land etcetera. Do we have any dissenting voices or comments on that, or is it acceptable. [D Whittaker:] How important is it? [Eric Barnett:] How importa [Mr Brighton:] It's it's a very short comment erm [Eric Barnett:] Yes, that's alright, go on. [Mr Brighton:] And and but the only comment I'd like to make is that there was a suggestion in I think it was a that the necessity to protect agricultural land had diminished since the food from our own resources and government's policy. I would simply like to point out that the protection of the countryside and agricultural land for its own sake is the policy that should be er er applied in this case, and I just want to make that point. It it doesn't matter whether it's needed or not needed for food production. [Mr P Davies:] Chairman, Peter, North Yorkshire. We have of course proposed a change to to this criterion which would effectively terminate the criterion after P P G seven. This was in response to requests from. [Eric Barnett:] Well that's the one I'm reading here. [D Whittaker:] Then Mr 's not [Eric Barnett:] Sorry Mr 's yes. Well I I I mean I see six as being quite specific in relation to agricultural land instead of the more general philosophy erm which would probably appear in other parts of the structure plan policies. Can we move on to [D Whittaker:] But [Eric Barnett:] Sorry it's all yours. [D Whittaker:] I appreciate you're trying to get on. Mr, if we have a criterion that says protect the countryside for its own sake, and a criterion from our discussion yesterday, and somewhere down here in relation to free standing, isn't our conclusion that nowhere is acceptable for a new settlement. Because by definition it is not related to an existing settlement, it is not in the greenbelt, it must be in the countryside. So the net effect of your suggested criterion is to get us rather further from a decision than even the chairman and I thought we might be at ten o'clock this morning. [Mr Brighton:] Yeah, Joe. Well my my suggestion was not meant to be unhelpful er [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Brighton:] Erm no it it it y you know where I'm coming from on this, the suggestion is that Se [D Whittaker:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [] [Mr Brighton:] that Selby is unconstrained in inverted commas. Erm I just don't I I I simply want to make the point that the protection of the countryside for its own sake is planning policy which must be brought within the of that criterion. But I do realize that it does er have locational implication which possibly we can deal with on Tuesday. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [M Courcier:] Michael. As worded I I think that criterion six is unrealistic. there's general acceptance and I note the D O E even accepted in their representations that any new settlement around Greater York will by the very nature of the character of Greater York, require taking some best and most versatile agricultural land. The object objective in six should be to minimize the loss of that land and to take the land in the l in the lower grade within the best and most versatile, rather than the higher grade. And that of course is exactly what P P G seven says. [Eric Barnett:] Do you want to comment Mr? [Mr P Davies:] Er just very briefly. I've just a quick discussion with Mr. Er we don't think that er that a new settlement would nec of necessity er include the the best and most versatile land. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [Mr P Davies:] Thank you. [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning partnership. And I concur with Mr on the point that he made. My concern about this is that I don't see how a view can be taken at a strategic level on something which ultimately can be only ascertained on a site specific basis. We cannot rely on the erm land... category maps which are produced by the Ministry of Agriculture, for areas I believe of less than forty hectares. Erm and and I welcome any response of the County Council as to how erm they would actually s use this criteria to make a to take a view on the acceptability of any location around the er York area. [Mr P Davies:] I think we looked to Peter, North Yorkshire. We'd look to advice from the Ministry of Agriculture on this and their view to m their their willingness to make a positive contribution to the development of the e er assessment in terms of the er erm the availability and distribution of the the best and most versatile land. I think that'll be the right way to proceed. [M Courcier:] Michael. I think it's a matter of fact that all the schemes I have seen have included an element of best and most versatile land. And then include schemes widely distributed throughout Greater York. The difference is in the proportion and type of best and most versatile. And that must be what should be expressed in the criterion. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you, Mr? [Mr Wincup:] . I think there's an opportunity here to bring in to six one of the considerations which occur in paragraph thirty three of P P G three, namely the reference in the fourth point to the importance of using erm derelict land, reclaiming derelict land. Er if that can arise. And one might [clears throat] one might say in six, erm perhaps not avoid but minimize the best and most versatile land in accordance with the provisions of P P G seven. And utilise where possible, derelict land. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you for that.... Any more comments on this one or can we move to criterion seven? Which at the moment reads, be capable of being assimilated satisfactorily into the local landscape.... [D Whittaker:] Is this a strategic matter? What does it mean? Does it mean... that it is well landscaped, built of local materials, doesn't stick up like a sore thumb? If so, are those strategic matters? Or does it mean something else?... [Mr P Davies:] I think chairman Peter, North Yorkshire. Er I think there's a need to to have a look at erm landscape character er across er Greater York on a consistent basis and er there are a number of ways that you could that you could look at this. I suspect there may well be areas in Greater York for example which are of high landscape value. Er but which because of their erm pattern of tree cover for example, may well be able to erm erm er accept er a new settlement which will blend reasonably erm er into the er landscape. Erm conversely that would suggest that erm you know, the one shouldn't automatically er be looking at the areas of of low l landscape value. Erm conversely I I think we would want to look at individual proposals as they as they came forward, and see what landscaping proposals they have and er how they intend to mitigate any perhaps adverse er landscape er implications. I think this is an extremely complicated er issue but I think it's on that needs to be looked at consistently across North Yorkshire. [D Whittaker:] But the implication that Mr is that this is not a criterion which can effectively be operated at the strategic level. It's a local consideration. [Mr P Davies:] Well I mean I think the issue revolves around whether landscape in the Greater York context, in the light of the specific proposal, is a is a strategic issue. And I think the need to protect the landscape on a settlement which we propose erm of fourteen hundred dwellings and round about three thousand three hundred people, I think is quite a significant and important issue for for Greater York. [D Whittaker:] Yes I'm not I'm not saying that I don't think it's a an important consideration. What I'm trying to get a feel for is the level at which it is a consideration. I would be f very surprised if any of the district councils for example, would accept that a new settlement could be plonked down somewhere within their area, without consideration of landscape proposals. [Mr P Davies:] Yes I agree. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Mr [Mr Brighton:] Paul. Paul,. You asked the question of of what this criterion erm could mean and I'd suggest that it means the following. That the new settlement should utilise the site of er low landscape and ecological value. The development should be capable of being assimilated into the natural environment. And the development should be able to show a positive landscape and ecology effect. Now I think the landscape issue and by landscape I mean er landscape and ecology, is capable of assessment at a strategic level, that's why we have er National Parks, A O N Bs and so on. And I think a similar exercise can be undertaken in the Greater York area. So in my view it is a relevant consideration at the structure plan level. [M Courcier:] Michael. I tend to agree with on at least on the latter point. The the criterion can be applied strategically. Erm if there are areas la large areas around Greater Greater York particularly to the west of the city, which because of their flat open character would not be suitable for for a new settlement. There are other areas, particularly to I'd accept to either to the south or to the north east where a new settlement could more easily be integrated into the existing landscape framework. And therefore I think it can be applied in a strategic way and therefore is reasonable for inclusion within the structure plan. [Eric Barnett:] Mr and then Mr. [Mr Brooke:] Ian, Ryedale District. I would agree with the points made by Mr and Mr in that it can be a strategic issue. I'm not necessarily in agreement with their conclusions. I think that what is needed for the Greater York area is a comparative assessment of the landscape quality and that the criterion should indicate that the settlement should avoid areas of significant landscape value. What Mr seems to be directing is that the settlement should be directed to those areas which are at present have pleasant tree cover and things, which theoretically can assimilate a new settlement which in the context of the Vale of York, tend to be those areas which are th are of the better landscape quality. By including the words, avoiding areas of significant landscape value, you are by implication, directing it at areas which can be improved by for example a structure plan to increase or improve the landscape value of that area. And I would suggest that the that is putting it within the er remit of paragraph three three of P P G three that it offers the opportunity to er upgrade areas of low landscape value. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you for that. Mr? [Mr Wincup:] I certainly agree that the thoughts of paragraph thirty three should be brought into criterion seven. Erm and particularly the conclusion of paragraph thirty three that following the criteria they give, the net effect of a new settlement will either enhance the environment or cause only modest environmental impact. That depends where on starts from, what the landscape quality is to begin with, whether one can bring about an enhancement. And I therefore feel that it it is indeed both a strategic and a local consideration. [Eric Barnett:] Yes yes. Yes I'd accept that. Any more comments on this one or can we move to eight? Which currently says avoid areas of archaeological and nature conservation interest.... [LAUGHTER] Mr [Mr Brighton:] Joe. I don't regard this as a strategic issue. I think this is a a matter for erm local consideration. [Eric Barnett:] Do you have any view on that one? [Mr P Davies:] I don't think I'll go to the wall over eight, chairman. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [Mr Brighton:] I [Eric Barnett:] Sorry. Mr n. [Mr Brighton:] Sorry I can't agree with Mr erm planning policy guidance three quite clearly indicates that S S S I's for example are a strategic matter to be taken into account in locating new settlements. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you.... Number nine. Be free standing and well removed from existing settlements, thereby minimizing any adverse impact on existing settlements. A comment I ha or a question I had was how far is well removed? Do you intend to try and define that. [Mr P Davies:] I think we'd we'd want to look at it and I think various figures we've talked about certainly as officers, whether we ought to try and er quantify that in terms of distance. certainly I think er we'd be looking perhaps for a minimum of er er of one mile but I can't advise you on any level of agreement as to as to what any definition of it. I think the I think you will be talking about that sort of order. [D Whittaker:] Is this a consideration which helps anybody to decide which district the new settlement should go in?... Much shaking of heads.... gentleman for. [Eric Barnett:] Mr first. [Mr Wincup:] With er this consideration in mind I er put forward erm to you the diagram of settlements round York. Because coalescence can be in my view a very important issue in deciding which sectors might well be the id375s1 [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. Er I I think I take Mr 's point that er you wouldn't go to well a mile it's really going to be horses for courses isn't it? [Mr P Davies:] Yeah I think we need t I I think one really needs to look at this. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [Mr P Davies:] Down on the ground. [Eric Barnett:] Yes and not a strategic one. Or is it? [Mr P Davies:] Well [Eric Barnett:] In terms of determining location. [Mr P Davies:] I think it's an important erm requi it should be an important requirement th the philosophy behind that that er that that argument should be pursued that it should be free standing. [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. Thank you, Mr. [speaker004:] Er thank you sir, Terry n, Selby District. Yes I was going to say, whilst it's not necessarily a strategic issue, there is a reference in the revise P P G three to the need to avoid coalescence. Which is a very similar wording to to the one used and if you do decide er to go forward with this criteria, perhaps erm there's scope to introduce the wording avoiding coalescence. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. [M Courcier:] Michael, very briefly. I think that this erm criterion nine relates to is is of the type of new settlement rather than helping select the general location. And I would my my general thoughts would be that it the word free standing should be actually in included within the preamble to the policy. And it be removed as a criterion. Cos it doesn't help help select a general location. Because almost all general locations round York could be could be fulfilled by that criterion. [Eric Barnett:] Mhm. Thank you. Can I move on to ten which no doubt will excite comment from my left. Mr? [tape change] [Roy Donson:] Roy, House Builders Federation. You anticipate me sir. Erm yes you you you'll know from my evidence that I have certain reservations about the detailed wording of this of this particular criteria. Er my main my main concern i i is really related to the implication within it that that literally every cost which is associated with a new settlement would have to be borne by the developer. So that literally means the developer will pay all the teachers that might be in a school, pay all the people to sweep the roads and a a and and everything else. They would expenses of that nature. That would seem to me to be contrary to government guidance and the wording needs tidying up to reflect that if that is not what is actually meant by the revision and by the wording of the policy. Erm a for that reason, I have in my evidence commended some alternative wording to you which is based upon erm a panel report for the Nottinghamshire structure plan who who considered the issue. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you. [D Whittaker:] Is this... a strategic matter?... I'm not saying question that this is not an important consideration, but does it help us decide where the new settlement should be? [Eric Barnett:] Right. [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. Er I don't think it probably that it does decide help you decide where the location ought to be, but that having said that, I would not want to minimize in any way er the views of my authority er as to the importance erm of the look of contributions from the private sector. Erm obviously you've seen what Ro what Roy has put in and obviously you'll come to a view on the position. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [speaker004:] Er John, C John, C P R E. I think erm er certainly the first half of the cri the criterion is is a strategic consideration. Erm but within that the the the phrase the troubles me is self contained. Erm particularly your question Mr chairman about er the principle against which such a criteria can be can be judged. Erm I think we established yesterday or current research suggests that certainly size of fourteen hundred people, no way can achieve self containment. Erm Mr in in his closing remarks yesterday afternoon defined a balanced and integrated community. What what we haven't yet defined is is what we mean by self containment. And and the degree to which that is consistent with the sustainable development argument that has been already been put. Erm er presumably this is something would have to be elaborated in the explanatory memorandum. [D Whittaker:] Can you say why you think it would be it is a strategic criterion? If... we take a narrow interpretation at least for the moment of strategic means it helps decide where it should go. [speaker004:] Well that that depends on on how we define self containment, because erm self containment has for example a transport implication. Erm if er the extent to which a new settlement would generate new trips and that that has a locational implication.... [Eric Barnett:] I'm not sure we follow that one. [speaker004:] Well er as I say I think, er if if if the County Council are are insisting that any new settlement erm should be self contained, I think one would need to see what that definition is before we can be clear as to whether or not it has it has strategic implications. Cos that for example [D Whittaker:] But is it not true that wherever it is, we're not going to build a wall around it, to keep them in. [speaker004:] Mm. But but th [D Whittaker:] And therefore wherever it is it is going to have transport implications in accordance with its size. [speaker004:] But that but that's my point really, we it's not really defined what what is meant in this criteria by criteria [D Whittaker:] But [speaker004:] by self containment. [D Whittaker:] If you accept that it doesn't matter where it is, it will have transport implications, we've already discussed a criterion erm about relating it to transport provision and facilities. How does this criterion help us to decide where it should go. [speaker004:] Erm... well well er put like that erm put like that er I suppose it it doesn't if if one accepts that the the the traffic and transport erm case is ma is made elsewhere.... [Mr Brighton:] Paul Paul,. Th this criterion I think is what I would call an operational criteria, erm it defines effectively what's going into the new settlement. Erm I don't think it assists at all in terms of location and I think it is a strategic matter however in terms of erm the structure plan and would probably be best incorporated into policy H two in a revised form and I suggested. I believe inevitable later. Thank you. [Eric Barnett:] Mr [Roy Donson:] Erm thank you. Roy, House Builders Federation. I'd just like to I don't think this is a strategic matter in the in in the terms which you are now defining it and indeed the issue of self containment, my understanding is only the universe is self contained. Erm but er you'll notice from my wording er revised wording of the policy, I seek to define the terms of that self containment by using the words, and so the District Council will seek to secure land for. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [R Thomas:] David, York City Council. Just a brief comment. Erm you'll not be surprised to hear discussing yesterday, on the issue of self containment, erm I regard this this criteria and. [Eric Barnett:] Would you say that again. [R Thomas:] If if if you accepted if you were to accept the the the issue of self containment we discussed yesterday, about the transportation implications of a new settlement of this size. Then the inclusion of the word self contained in this criteria within those terms rule out all proposals. [D Whittaker:] You would like high priority therefore attached to [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Yes I I remember we went down a very long cul-de-sac at one stage on self containment didn't we. I think we might need to look at that one very carefully to see whether it adds anything to the er criteria. Mr. [Mr Wincup:] Wincup, D O E. Just a very brief point sir. Th don't want to extend the the d debate on this, just to point out that paragraphs thirty five and thirty seven, P P G three, both related to local plan policies and not to structure plan. [Eric Barnett:] Yes. Thank you. Do you all feel as though you've had... your say on that? Mr, were you going to rephrase that? [speaker004:] Er no sir, I'm waiting for the next item. [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Lead on. [speaker004:] Er Terry, Selby District. Er this i matter er item twelve. I thought I'd better get in here first before Mr, and er Michael start hurling pieces of coal at each other. [LAUGHTER] Erm I'll be I'll be very brief because I set out Selby District's views in in my written subm submission, but basically, strict interpretation of of this particular criterion, would clearly eliminate substantial parts of Selby District which is affected by the development of the coal field. Now the coal field is a clearly very complex issue, but basically it it is now becoming clearer that er the life of the coalfields will not be as long as originally envisaged. In fact substantial parts of it will be er will not extend beyond the end of the the plan period. And al already there are significant areas of that have actually been worked out. So that that the constraint wouldn't apply in in those areas anyway. Er at the very least I wish to see the criteria amended erm and expressed in terms of minimizing impact rather er avoiding completely. [Eric Barnett:] Yes I I presume there must be some form of safeguarding areas laid down by British Coal. And equally I presume you've also got some form of mineral protection zones or aren't they relevant in the context of the area of search. [Mr P Davies:] I I don't th [Eric Barnett:] in terms of and gravel resources or whatever. [M Courcier:] Er Malcolm, County Council. Yes [Eric Barnett:] I just can't get to the reason why why you have th this criteria in. [M Courcier:] Well as you know, we have very substantial planning permission for the Selby coalfield which covers [Eric Barnett:] Yeah. Mm. [M Courcier:] part of the area that we would be looking at for the new settlement. And I think it is very important if we take into account the the potential conflict. Now that does not entirely rule out any possibility of the new settlement within the Selby area, as er Mr has implied. That has never been the County Council's interpretation of the of the relationship between er this criteria and the Selby coalfield. Nevertheless it is a very clear strategic matter which must be included in my view in the in the criteria included in the structure plan. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning partnership. The effect of the Selby coalfield erm is felt on specific areas of land. And as er Mr has pointed out, er some parts of the district are not affected at all by this issue, other areas have already been worked out. And doubtless other areas will be worked out before there is a need to start on site. The subsidence which occurs as a result of the mining in any event is very limited and has been able to be taken into account quite adequately on other developments within the Selby District. And because this issue is clearly so site related, it seems to me it cannot possibly be looked at at a strategic level. And the appropriate way in which this matter should be considered is through the local plan when you are considering a much er more limited range of possible sites for the new settlement. And for that reason I believe erm it should be deleted from the locational criteria in terms of the area of search around Greater York. [Eric Barnett:] Can we? [M Courcier:] Michael Michael. I I consider that that this does assist in general location. Quite ob quite obviously cos I say so in my evidence. Erm it is a the the impact of the new settlement upon the worki the workings of Selby coalfield are recognized by British Coal. British Coal haven't made their position quite clear. They consider that the new settlement should shouldn't be within the wi within areas which would affect their future workings. It's a matter obviously it's a matter of weight to be given to it. But I I think that it it is a matter which is legitimately it should be legitimately included within the the structure plan as an important factor. Now obviously the weight we can we can debate on Tuesday. [Eric Barnett:] Mr? No? No? [Mr Brighton:] If I could just make one further comment please, Paul, planning partnership. The existence of the Selby Coalfield has not precluded substantial development within Selby itself. Indeed British Coal erm have current proposals to undermine Selby town itself. And for that reason I don't believe this is really any form of constraint on new development which could obviously be built with er appropriate foundations to absorb the very slight movement that takes place when undermining occurs. [Mr P Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire. [clears throat] I I really don't want to make too much of this chairman. You you're aware of paragraph thirty one of er M P G one. There has been some concern expressed by British Coal on this issue. Er and it may well be as Mr has suggested that when we look at it it is not a problem. But I think in fairness to erm complete the picture shall we say, I really think we ought to er we ought to be looking at it. But it may well be as Mr suggested that er there's l there's gonna be very little difficulty there. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you.... Any more comments on that one? We're running slightly behind time but we're doing very well. Does anyone have any additional criteria, they wish to add. No? [Mr Brighton:] Can I can I just raise a question er to r to clarify the point before I answer your question that I are am I are we to assume that in response to Mr, erm it's on the record that there's a er a request to add, clear expression of local preference I by local planning authorities? [Eric Barnett:] That's his request yes. [Mr Brighton:] In that case I don't need to repeat it. Thank you.... [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Wincup:] I think that one point Er. I think one point is not allowed for in the criteria and that it is of relevance. If the new if the new settlement proves successful, it will have an impetus all its own and therefore it will not come to a full stop in two thousand and six. There will be a natural tendency for expansion to occur thereafter. Therefore in considering the degree to which any er area can assimilate a new settlement, the size which it must reach subsequent to two thousand and six, should be considered in addition to the size it expected to reach by that date. [Eric Barnett:] A valid point Mr, yes. [D Whittaker:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] I'm not sure sure how we could build it into the criteria of But it's it's a point which would obviously have to be borne in mind in terms of the str you know, the planning process. [Mr P Davies:] I think Peter, North Yorkshire. I think we talked about this yesterday, I think and certainly my view was that th s that a further increment onto er a new settlement would be one of the options. Erm of course two thousand and six is a consideration that we ought to look at once a new settlement location's identified. Er I think I share your view there's some difficulty as to how we would actually accommodate in er in the policy. [D Whittaker:] The implication of that could be one of two ways. Either, that long term flexibility beyond two thousand and six is a relevant consideration, or it is not. And I've lost the second one. It obviously wasn't important. [Eric Barnett:] It's getting late. [Mr P Davies:] Well [D Whittaker:] Ah yes, the second point was, is that a consideration which is determines location in strategic terms? [Mr P Davies:] Erm I think I'd support the first point that we we're obviously er all in favour well the County Council is certainly in favour of flexibility in terms of addressing the post two thousand er six scenario. One of those options would be a further increment on the existing erm new settlement. Erm I'm not too sure on the second point. My tired brain is trying to work out a response which it's failing to do at the moment. So I don't think I can help you too much on the second one. [Eric Barnett:] But in fact it could be looked at in the light of criterion nine, which is free standing, well removed etcetera [Mr P Davies:] Yeah. [Eric Barnett:] thereby minimizing any adverse impact. [Mr P Davies:] Yeah. Mm. Whether it would still continue to be free standing and well removed in terms of a second er second increment. [Eric Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Wincup:] , D O E. Er on Mr 's point about the preferences of the district councils sir. While that's clearly the most important consideration for each of the districts over the next few months, while the selection process is going on, er bearing in mind what's said in P P G three, we regard that as axiomatic and I I find it inconceivable that the the department would allow any new settlement to proceed nowadays without the agreement of the district council. If that is so, I would then say that by the time you get to the modification stage and the County Council has published a proposal for the general location, I therefore think at that stage the need for the criterion has disappeared, so it may be that the approved policy will not need to contain such criteria. [Eric Barnett:] Point taken. Mr [Mr Brighton:] Paul, planning partnership. Erm I have one other criteria which I would suggest you'd need to take into account when considering the general location of the new settlement around York and that is to the need to what I term in my er planning submission, to plan for success. Erm in my view, it's crucial that the selection of a general location should be overwhelmed by these technical considerations. It's very important in my view er because the new settlement will be primarily dependant on private sector funding which in itself is dependant on the uplift in land values, erm that the area should be one in which developers wish to build. And that obviously creates the uplift in land values which finances the social structure that would be set in terms of the operational criteria for the new settlement. So I think there is a need to plan for a location where this new settlement is going to be successful, recognizing that failure to attract appropriate er private sector interest will mean poor quality design and social provision which will obviously detract from the new settlement as a place to live and also undermine its role in terms of the Greater York area. Now we have taken advice from several chartered surveyors and indeed the developer of the existing Clifton Moor industrial estate on this issue. And their very clear view based on their long and practical experience of the Greater York development market, is that a location South South West of York is more likely to... be a successful location particularly for the employment component of the new settlement, than any other sector of York. And I would ask you to have regard to that erm when you look at the technical criteria which we've spent the last couple of hours looking at. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you very much, we will come back to that on Tuesday morning. Er thanks for your patience. Can I remind you that we'll be looking at er two D on Tue Tuesday morning. That'll be starting at ten o'clock. We'll have to conclude at one because the we have another issue in the afternoon. Erm if we overrun on Tuesday morning, then we have spare time in our programme for a week day. Erm I just put you on notice about that. I would hope that we might be able to arrange it but obviously if it is er out of the question, then we'd have to try to rearrange it some other time. But I hope it might be a spur to some positive discussion, Tuesday morning er and terminating absolutely at one o'clock. Yeah. The alternative of course is that we could reconvene later on Tuesday, if the hall is available. But er let us see how we go Tuesday morning. To put you on your mettle. And can I remind the district planning officers I am looking for a positive contribution from you on Tuesday. [M Courcier:] Michael Michael, to to assist the panel, after we received 's paper on on on the erm coal workings in Selby we have act we faxed that over to British Coal for their comments. I'm now just got their comments now, and it may be helpful if I enclose a copy to er whoever may may wish to have a copy to be looked at over the weekend. [Eric Barnett:] Thank you The the the good news for you the good news for you is that if we erm run out of time on Tuesday morning, we can have the hall all night, Tuesday night. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Eric Barnett:] Thank you very much, have a good weekend. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] the participants for H Two will have already discovered, we are still tackling part of H One from yesterday, but, and I apologize that you will have to sit through the outstanding items of discussion. On the other hand, you will have gathered already that we are going to talk about Greater York, so I think there may be some distinct benefit and merit in you being he here to listen to that, er particular part of the topic, now the, I hope in fact that we can deal with the remainder of H One, because it it does lead quite logically into the next issue which we want to talk about, which is the new settlement in the Greater York area, er and I hope that we can get through this item by our morning break, that but whenever we do conclude on H One we will have to have a slightly longer break just to enable the seating arrangements to be sorted out properly for all participants who are involved in the discussion on the new settlement. Now can I er also suggest to you that in discussing this one outstanding item of the housing land allocations, we pursue virtually the same sort of approach that we did yesterday, er and in fact if you look at what is set down under matter One D for discussion, it says is the provision proposed for the Greater York area including the new settlement appropriate etcetera, and in fact when you look at the first item for discussion under the Greater York new settlement issue, we come straight into, does Greater York new settlement represent an appropriate and justified policy response, etcetera. So what I'm going to ask effectively that when we are talking about the Greater York element of the housing land allocation we concentrate on the question of is the level of provision enough? And we know there are various er responses to that question, and I would be looking to the districts to say whether or not they could cope with the various levels of provision that have been identified for Greater York, and it's the view of whether they can cope within their own districts, I haven't said how you can cope, I said whether you can cope, you might I will I will leave you free to make the odd comment, but I want to focus on that part of the issue, and then the natural corollary to that is, will it be necessary, or is it considered necessary in the context of this alteration to provide specific guidance within H One policy for the distribution of that er development to er at sub, what I would call sub-district level, in other words do you want a specific entry for say Ryedale or Hambledon? Has anyone got any questions on that approach? Is it clear how I'd like to play it? Er so with no more ado I will ask Mr Davis for North Yorkshire to present his opening statement, and then I'd like Mr Curtis, your moment has come Mr Curtis, er to to follow on from Mr Davis. Thank you. [Mr Peter Davis:] Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, erm I'd just like to make five brief points in response to the issues that have been raised erm on One D. The first of those points is the principle of a Greater York dimension to the structure plan, erm we'll all probably be aware that in the original structure plan the Secretary of State wasn't prepared to accept a Greater York dimension in the structure plan, but did accept with the support of the district councils on the first alteration, the inclusion of a Greater York dimension. Having that Greater York dimension has certainly allowed progress to be achieved dramatically in Greater York, erm, it's led to progress towards progress towards green belt definition, and more importantly it's led towards resolution of future strategy for Greater York. Er we at the County Council think that to delete that Greater York erm dimension would take us back to the realms of uncertainty, past uncertainty, in the Greater York area, we're therefore proceeding with a Greater York dimension in policy H One at none thousand seven hundred dwellings, which equates to hundred percent migration. The second point I want to raise is the issue erm of the green belt, er which is er a constraint in Greater York erm we've made significant progress in moving towards the statutory definition of the green belt, the green belt local plan has now completed erm its public enquiry, and a lot of the deliberations in Greater York have centred around the effect on of the green belt on development potential in Greater York, so that is a main issue, I think, in response to issues, the discussion of issues in Greater York. The third point which has come out in a number erm of comments, certainly from the C P R E is the issue of overshoots in the approved structure plan in respect to Greater York, and as we made clear in paragraph eight of our er erm position statement, we accept that there has been in numeric terms in the period eighty one to ninety two something like fifteen percent overshoot in terms of completions er in that period. We would wish to stress again, with the district council's support I suspect, that that overshoot really it's to sites within the urban area, as in windfall sites in general planning terms we have seen to be acceptable er in planning terms, but we would wish to stress that part part of that approach has been a continuing resistance to development on greenfield sites on the edge of the the urban area. The fourth point, Chairman, er is the new settlement issue, and while that's due for discussion on policy H Two, that issue does shall I suggest invade policy H One, because an appropriate form of words has to be agreed in policy H One to reflect the new settlement issue and as you'll be aware the County Council is about a step by step approach towards the finalization of the new settlement erm strategy for Greater York, and then finally, a specific issue that you mentioned is the distribution of developments between the Greater York districts er within Greater York, now as you'll be aware Chairman, that has been done informally, following the original structure plan in nineteen eighty the County and the Districts got together and agreed the distribution of housing and employment land in Greater York. Following the first alteration, when the Secretary of State approved the Greater York dimension, that matter was resolved amicably between the County and the Districts erm through the er Greater York study, so the issue therefore is there a need for more guidance for the structure plan, to break down the Greater York figure to individual Greater York districts, and our view quite clearly er is the answer that the answer to that is no. Certainly it would be very difficult to introduce any statistical rational erm to the desegregation of Greater York to its district components, bearing in mind the small populations er in some of the Greater York er districts, we think that the general level of detail erm in the structure plan is appropriate, and we think to go down to any finer detail would be an inappropriate to a structure plan, and thirdly I think on that issue, er we would think that it would prejudice erm the work that District Council would want to do erm in their er local plans. So those, Chairman, are the five points er that I wanted to raise on Greater York, and obviously we will be interested to hear the response round the table today. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I ask Mr can I ask Mr Davis to give us a bit more explanation, please, as to his rationale behind continuing resistance to the development of greenfield sites on the edge of York. [Mr Peter Davis:] Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, erm I think the clear answer to that is that districts, erm and county, erm were very aware of the greenbelt constraints on greenbelt sites [Miss D Whittaker:] But [Mr Peter Davis:] erm adjacent to the urban area. [Miss D Whittaker:] Are you saying that greenfield development on the edge of York would be in the greenbelt as you have... defined it in the deposited local plan. [Mr Peter Davis:] I'm talking about the the overshoot, and my comments about greenfield sites were related to period eighty one to ninety two, and it became quite clear during the eighties that the sketch plan green belt or development was at that time, through the eighties, was by and large abutting onto the urban area, that er through the eighties what everybody understood to the sketch plan green belt was tight up against er the urban area, so in resisting urban greenfield sites erm on the urban edge through the eighties the County Council were recognizing the greenbelt constraints. [Miss D Whittaker:] That isn't quite the question I asked. Unless you are telling me that the sketch greenbelt local plan is the same as the deposited greenbelt local plan [Mr Peter Davis:] Well [Miss D Whittaker:] is there land between the current edge of development in York and the inner edge of the greenbelt which is as yet undeveloped? [Mr Peter Davis:] Yes, and then that approach was taken on through the Greater York study, and in the greenbelt local plan, and the Greater York study identified a number of sites. Part A goes ninety one to ninety six, part B ninety six to two thousand and six, sites adjacent to the urban area in the Greater York study er which were acceptable for development because corporately the districts and the county did not think that those sites discharged a greenbelt function as the greenbelt local plan was progressed those sites were excluded from the greenbelt erm and yes, we did identify a number of sites which did not conflict with greenbelt objectives erm on the urban edge. [Miss D Whittaker:] Are those sites within the City of York administrative area or other districts? [Mr Peter Davis:] The the bulk of them erm I think almost without exception are erm in adjoining districts, around York, the significant contribution from York that we identified in the Greater York study, erm largely comes from from windfill windfall sites, by and large. [Miss D Whittaker:] Which districts, please. [Mr Peter Davis:] Erm the the bulk of the erm erm commitment erm or the or the sites that we identified, er would be in would be in Ryedale district, in South Ryedale. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you, thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] Thank you Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. I think some of my er introductory comments might now be inspector, er understand the er sort of urban situation, erm we heard yesterday about er discussion about the similarities between different districts in North Yorkshire and the possible differences. I think everyone around the table would accept that in this situation York is unique. York's a historic city of some hundred and four thousand people, covering some two thousand nine hundred hectares, but that city itself is only part of the settlement that I think we would all regard as as York itself, that covers a larger population of some a hundred and thirty five thousand people, er contained er within the York outer ring road, and referenced to the the map submitted with my H One submission, and also the greenbelt plan which we've we've just put up on the board there, er will show you the the broader extent of the urban area. Clearly in that situation the city of York is highly constrained, it's a modern industrial city with a very tight medieval core, a historic core which is is world renowned, but a historic core which actually only covers four percent of the built area of the city itself, when we look at that wider area erm the central historic core together with the eight other conservation areas in the city and conservation areas in the remainder of the urban settlement comes to some thirteen percent of the urban area. Furthermore we have a series of major landscape features, er which are been referred to in the greenbelt local plan and elsewhere as wedges, which you'll see from the map enter into the very heart of the city itself. Some six hundred hectares of that land is actually designated as greenbelt, but in addition within that a number of those areas are er prevented from development in perpetuity we'd argue because a large part of that area has got a historic status as stray land, which is a form of common land, which means it's actually not not available for any form of development, similarly the flood planes of the river Ouse in particular is for physical development reasons er prevented from development in many areas, and those of you who were here this weekend will have no noticed the reason why, it was a flooding that took that took place on the Ouse valley, in addition to those constraints, open space within the city is at a premium erm the city falls below the Emperface standard, erm by er something like erm half a hectare per thousand population, so compared with the Emperface standard of two point four per thousand, the city reaches a quite a generous erm categorization of the recreational space we have available, only a total of two hectares per thousand, therefore, and this is very relevant to the Greater York debate, erm, really the only land for development within the city is recycled land, there are limited number of er sites which have not been developed in recent years erm which can be identified for development, and are being identified for development in our draft local plan. But the majority of of any development land in the city would be recycled, either from housing uses or industrial uses. The draft of the city wide local plan will be going to the city council in December, and prove of the consultation, but the figures some of you've seen in our evidence have been a agreed by the the local plan steering group, who sit in council members er across party, committee which has agreed the basic numbers, so the draft allocations which are in our submission, and which we have seen in the schedules yesterday, are accepted as a basis for consultation by the city council but are clearly subject to review. Turn turning then to just touch on the issues that I've, we didn't cover yesterday for York, erm you'll notice from our H One submission we have a slight difference of opinion with the County Council on the technical side of the er the calculation, we believe that the calculation, we believe that the calculation for York's need rather than three three should be a four thousand figure, taking into account the the issue of concealed households and involuntary sharing. However, that doesn't have an effect on our er ability to agree a figure of three three for the city itself, in the structure plan, because the work we've done on the local plan taking into account commitments and suitable allowances for small sites, does indicate to us that a figure of three three is achievable, but would be extremely difficult to exceed, the difference here between the four thousand and the three three does, however, have an impact on our neighbours clearly, and as was mentioned yesterday the City Council does own some some twenty nine hectares of land outside its current boundary, er located in the Ryedale District Council area, that land, some of that land has planning consent, the remainder is allocated in the draft Southern Ryedale local plan and was excluded from the greenbelt, that land it is the City Council's intention to use to meet its er requirements for affordable housing, could accommodate some seven hundred dwellings, I think it is very important for me to emphasize that that is a very clear commitment of the City Council, and therefore that land in Ryedale would not er in the majority of its case be available for open market use, we would be seeking to use it to meet er affordable housing requirements. Er the other point I would make about the the figures under H One, really is that erm the twelve thirty figures that you've seen in the tables is our best estimate at the present time, based on the site survey we've carried out. That is a very comprehensive survey, erm I wouldn't envisage any additional sites being recommended by the City Council, er at the present time, although clearly some of the sites may be suggested by by a private developers and landowners during the consultation process. It is quite possible clearly that that number could be reduced, during the consultation process on the on the local plan, I think that's an important point because of the issue of windfall that was mentioned by Mr Davis, and was raised yesterday, reference to historic trends in the city of York do show that erm we have exceeded structure plan targets by substantial amounts, I think the figure is is forty percent or or more, er the County Council could confirm that, slightly difficult calculation to do because I'm sure you'll be aware that to our eternal shame, the City Council has not to date adopted a formal local plan, with reference erm to your question on day one er as to whether or not we might calculate contribution of windfalls in the past, we have looked at the nineteen eighty seven residential land availability er study, which was agreed with the house builders, adjacent districts, and of course the County, and in the five year period of that study, by comparison with the sites that we agreed in the study, an additional four hundred and thirty dwellings came forward and were completed on sites that had not been identified in the study, now I'd I would say very clearly that that level of windfalls erm would not continue in the future and it could not be a reliable basis for erm looking at windfall contributions in the city in the future, clearly the supply of development land in the city is a is a finite resource, er given given the constraints that are current holding, and although some additional windfalls to the two hundred I'd suggested in my H One may come forward, on the other hand I suspect some of the sites suggested in the draft local plan could fall out of the equation. Just turning briefly to the issue of affordable housing, you'll see from my H One submissions the City Council has a target, er which is in the the York area housing strategy, which is currently with the D O E for its consideration, of something like a hundred and fifty dwellings a year, giving over the fifteen year period a two thousand two hundred target, how we will go about achieving that is primarily, where it's possible using land we already own, or is in ownership of housing associations, and taking into account the the seven dwellings outside the current city boundary, we believe in total they will contribute some fifteen hundred dwellings towards that two thousand two hundred target, this will leave clearly a significant shortfall, and it will therefore be necessary to to seek to negotiate, if I can use the terms of P B G 3 erm with house builders as sites come forward in in the local during the local plan period. Turning now very briefly to the H One D the Greater York issue, clearly the comments I've made about the calculations for York have a knock on effect for our position on Greater York, the Greater York figures as I understand it from the County Council are based on a one hundred percent migration assumption, if the technical difference between us er we are right then we believe clearly the Greater York figure should be increased by an appropriate amount, and the we've suggested the increased cut should be seven hundred er relating to the city itself I can't calculate with any great accuracy what the figure for the surrounding parts of Greater York might be, but it would be we suspect only another one to two hundred more on top of that, therefore that underst explains the reason why the City Council suggests that the Greater York should be increased to the ten four figure from the nine seven. The other concern in the City Council's evidence on H One er is this issue of distribution, I note Mr Davis's comments about the difficulties of subdividing the Greater York allocation between different districts, and I I do acknowledge the difficulty in relation to Harrogate, and particularly Hambledon which obviously has a very small proportion of Greater York, on the other hand both Ryedale and Selby do contain a substantial proportion of the Greater York population, er based on my calculations of their er proportion of the population of Greater York which admittedly is a somewhat crude way of of doing estimates, but in the absence of of any other projections that was really the only way to do it, my estimate is that the er compared with the nine seven target of County Council would take in the could potentially be seen to be taking a share of four thousand two hundred in Ryedale and seventeen hundred for Selby, if you base it on their existing population distribution on er part outside the city, now I'm not saying necessarily that's how the way you would do it, but I I think it's an indication that the scale of development in those two districts is quite significant in Greater York, our concern is that the policy as it currently stands does not give any real guidance as to the way in which distribution of development outside the city, but in Greater York, erm can be er should be di divided up, and I think the problem really occurs from the introduction of the new settlement into H One, erm I don't want to stray into the H Two debate Chair, but I think it's the fact that H One does include a figure for the new settlement, that the new settlement is not located within any particular district, but that all the district totals do include in effect a figure which is undetermined at this stage, that that would be absorbed by the new settlement, as I understand the policy at the moment, and I think that really does introduce a problem, erm because clearly all of the emerging districts wide local plans could be in conformity with the structure plan and not include the new settlement, I think it's er interesting to note that the the D O E's recently published a good practice guide, on development plans, did particularly highlight the situation in Greater York, as a problem, as a shortcoming of the existing plan, and if I can just quote it, it does say this, on page forty three, it would seem appropriate for broad locations of new development to be established by means of an alteration to the structure plan. So we have suggested, erm, you will see in our evidence that policy H One should be amended and their are clearly a number of ways in which that amended amendment could take place, but we would particularly suggest that erm an indication should be given as to what the proportion of each district's allocation is assumed to be going to the new settlement, if the new settlement is is agreed under the H Two discussion, thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much, Mr Curtis. [cough] I mean effectively what you're saying is that York has got a capacity for about another three thousand three hundred dwellings? [Mr David Curtis:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Over a whole range of sites. After [Mr David Curtis:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] that you're really straining, almost to get a gallon into a pint pot, never mind a quart, aren't you? [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. Yes, that is correct, sir. [Miss D Whittaker:] Does that include all land within the city boundary not included in the greenbelt? [speaker001:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. Yes it does, the there is as you will see from the greenbelt plan,a apart from the issue of the fact that the the city boundary is in many areas er sort of hard up against further urban development so there's no space between the city and the parts in adjacent districts, the greenbelt boundary, as currently proposed by the County Council, erm which as you'll see from our evidence is not a boundary supported in its entirety by the City Council, means there is no further development land between the city boundary and the greenbelt. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] I think I'll ask Mr Smith from Ryedale to... tell us a little more about Ryedale's problems or efforts [Mr Ian Smith:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] to cope with the pressures from York city itself, and the Greater York area. [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Erm Ryedale District, as can be seen from the table supplied by Greater York, has taken the largest proportion of the Greater York housing element over the past ten years, as regards the proposed level of future housing growth suggested for the Greater York area, the District Council supports the figure in the structure plan, the Greater York study identified a number of sites around the Greater York area which could accommodate further development without compromising greenbelt objectives or adversely affecting the character of the settlements surrounding York, and within that part of Southern Ryedale within the Greater York area the identified sites were, by and large, incorporated into the Southern Ryedale local plan, which has recently been through the public enquiry, the District Council does not believe that a larger amount of land could be identified within Southern Ryedale, without compromising greenbelt objectives. As regards the distribution of lands between the districts, erm if I can refer to Mr Curtis's comments first, the Greater York study never anticipated that the distribution of housing around the Greater York the districts would be based around the percentage of population within those districts, but purely on capacity of sites within those districts to accommodate future housing growth without compromising greenbelt objectives, Ryedale, as I've said before, has taken the largest proportion of recent housing in the Greater York area, and has identified a substantial amount of new land for housing within its Southern Ryedale local plan, what the District Council is concerned about is that within the local, Southern Ryedale local plans, this is taking a large proportion of its district wide total plans, yet the District Council from the structure plan figure given is unable to calculate the remainder of housing that should be allocated in the remainder of its district. What Ryedale is seeking is not a figure for its sector within the Greater York area, and the same with the other districts, but rather a figure for the Greater York area as a whole, and then a figure for the remainder of those parts of the districts outside the Greater York area, so you don't get a situation with my colleagues on the left where you are in the structure plan dictating the number of houses that should be allocated in, for example, two parishes. [Mr E Barnett:] I follow the I follow the er the point, but the thing that puzzles me is that your South Ryedale local plan allocations have arisen out of the discussions on the Greater York study, yes? [Mr Ian Smith:] That is correct, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Where do you go post two thousand and six, for example, in obtaining a strategic view about the distribution of growth around York, and in the Greater York area. I mean, how is that going to be provided? How are you going to be given, and I'm making an assumption, of course that the present two tier planning system is still prevailing? Stick with that scenario, how, how would you anticipate, or how would you expect that strategic guidance to be given as to where development should be appropriately located to serve the needs of Greater York, what mechanism is there in place for being [Mr Ian Smith:] I it's [Mr E Barnett:] given that guidance? [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District Council. Erm beyond two thousand and six, I would have thought the strategic guidance would be in locations other than peripheral expansion around the Greater York area, which I would have suggested would would more than likely be to new settlements. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I pursue erm any fact no more without compromising greenbelt objectives, no more than that, er you said a couple of times. I th I'm not challenging that, I simply wish to be clear what you mean by it. Two questions. Does that mean no more without development in the deposited greenbelt, as in the greenbelt as defined in the deposited greenbelt local plan, or does it mean no more unless it is hard up against that greenbelt? And secondly, to which greenbelt objectives did you refer? [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District Council. Er to answer the first answer the first of your two questions, erm, the greenbelt as defined in the greenbelt local plan is hard up, in many respects, against the edge of the built up area, excluding allocated sites, allocations above that within the Southern Ryedale area would in fact require redrawing green in a green belt boundaries. [Miss D Whittaker:] But there is allocated land, allocated undeveloped land, between the existing urban edge and the inner edge of the greenbelt? [Mr Ian Smith:] Yes, where, sorry, Ian Smith, Ryedale District, yes, er where it was considered those allocated sites could be developed without extending development into the greenbelt. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Davis, and then Mr. [Miss D Whittaker:] I'm sorry there was a second question. [Mr E Barnett:] Oh sorry, yes. [Mr Ian Smith:] Erm the greenbelt objectives which we identify with or could be compromised by significant peripheral expansion, or the expansion of a settlement within the greenbelt, were primarily the effecting the setting of the historic city, which we and the County considered and refer to more than just the green wedges, and but involve the whole countryside, and the setting of the settlements within the greenbelt around the Greater York area, expansion of lar large urban areas into the countryside, possible coalescence of settlements. [Miss D Whittaker:] Not the historic city itself? [Mr Ian Smith:] Yes er it the first, yes, setting of the historic city. [Miss D Whittaker:] How would you describe the setting of the historic core of York. [Mr Ian Smith:] Erm, it's a city, this takes me back a few months, since the Southern Ryedale local plan enquiry, the character, special character of a city, is derives from a number of elements, there's the green wedges which centre on the strays which penetrate into the heart of the built up area, there is the encircling belt of open countryside which links those areas together, there are the numerous settlements within the greenbelt and their relationship to one another, and to the city of York. [Miss D Whittaker:] There are a number of viewpoints of the city from the ring road [Mr Ian Smith:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] erm, in some of which the Minster is clearly visible, [Mr Ian Smith:] Mhm. [Miss D Whittaker:] in a setting of suburban, industrial, residential development, and some of those viewpoints on the ring road all one can see is the suburban, industrial, and residential development. [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith,Ry [Miss D Whittaker:] That's what were aiming to preserve, is it? [Mr Ian Smith:] Well, Ian Smith Ryedale, I think in the majority of views across from the ring road you have a belt of open countryside before that suburban housing. What you yo were trying to achieve is the expansion of the built up area towards the ring road, and thereby having built development hard up er as it is at the moment the ring road goes through for the most part open countryside on either side of it. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Davis. [Mr Peter Davis:] Very briefly, Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, you raised the issue of procedures looking at the er post two thousand and six scenario within the light of er a statutory greenbelt er at that time, and I would envisage that the County Council and the Districts, if indeed we're all er in business at er er in in in the next century, would probably want to run a similar sort of exercise that they would be ran through the end of the eighties, and that is to sit down together, er and look at all the options, er that are available for Greater York, in the same way that they did it in ninety eighty nine, one additional factor at that time would be that er the greenbelt would be statutory, and it would be statutory if the County Council and ninety five percent of the district support on sites would be a tight greenbelt so the options would be looked at erm er in that context, on the comments that er Miss Whittaker, erm questions that Miss Whittaker raised, there is a paper that the County Council produced for the greenbelt local plan enquiry that I remember well as N Y Two, which set out in detail the various components, erm of the York greenbelt in addition to the historic title that the that the focus of the green belt comes across a variety of of of of matters, and if it if it is helpful to this panel that document was acceptable by and large, supported by the District, we can certainly put that in, and can circulate it round. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes please, if you would. [Mr Peter Davis:] Thank you, sir. Mr Grigson. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Steven Grigson from Barton Willmore. Sir, I would want to come back I susp [Mr E Barnett:] Can you? [Mr Steven Grigson:] I will want to come back, I suspect later on. Am I on? Thank you. I want to make a limited point at this juncture, I reserve the right to come back later on, and it's become three points as a result of the discussion we've already had, my view on the contribution of the of the greenbelt to the York issue isn't just the setting of the city, it's the character of the city, and that would include the central city and the historic city, and the need to limit the physical expansion and size of the urban area because of the implications inside the historic city, and that would certainly apply to other cities with greenbelts that I'm familiar with like York, like er Oxford, which the character suffers from expansion, possibly excessive, Norwich, that considered a greenbelt, and London, if you like that didn't get its greenbelt until we had the character rather drastically altered, so I think it isn't just the setting and how you see the city from the ring road, it's actually what happens inside the core, the second point I want to make is really for clarification perhaps, er and it relates to the question of allocations between the built up area and the inner edge of the greenbelt, as I understand it all those allocations are already er included in the Ryedale local plan, and are already therefore included in the commitments that we looked at in Ryedale, I don't think there is a further reserve of spare opportunities that might be used either before or after two thousand and six, that's certainly my understanding and if anybody was was taking a different view I think that should be clear, and now I come to the one point that I was actually going to raise, erm I think it's important that in this discussion of the relations between York city and Greater York, that we get a, early on, a clear view of what the requirements are in York, not just its capacity which we've discussed so far, and a figure of three thousand three hundred seems to be a fairly common currency, but its requirements, and I want to address a particular question to the County Council, which is in my proof, so they've had as it were four weeks notice of it. [tape change] And that is that in the projections of housing requirements for the City of York, not Greater York but the City of York, the County Council have a figure of four thousand four hundred households extra, but propose a provision of only three thousand three hundred dwellings extra, that's purely within York, and the question really therefore for the County Council is I had thought that their dwelling requirements, that their, sorry their their policy H One figure for York was what they thought the requirements were, but maybe it's what they think the limited capacity is, and they are foreseeing an overspill of thousand odd from the city of York into Greater York. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Spittle. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Malcolm Spittle the figures in policy H One are quite clearly referred to as provision that will be made in particular settlements, they are not stated as the the requirement for dwellings generated by that particular settlement, erm, that is quite clearly set out in policy H One, that is the wording of the policy. If the city cannot provide mo, physically more than three thousand three hundred it would not be wise to include a figure of four thousand, five thousand, six thousand, dwellings within the city, that would be misleading and would not provide clear guidance to any local authority in the preparation of their local plan. [Miss D Whittaker:] I don't think that was the point Mr Grigson was making. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Well the [Mr Steven Grigson:] for clarity is that the actual projected requirements, as a series of projections produced by County Council are for four thousand three hundred households, and a projected requirement for three thousand three hundred dwellings, well quite clearly if the City of York itself cannot accommodate the requirement generated from in that city, then it must be looked at in relation to the whole of the Greater York area, and the projections of the Greater York area do take into account the er the figures generated from within the City of York, therefore, yes, they are included within the Greater York figure. [Miss D Whittaker:] Do you accept, Mr Spittle, as Mr Grigson says, the projected on a tr on a trend statistical projection, the figure of households for York city is four thousand four hundred? [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] The figure I think that we, yes I wonder if Mrs Long could re to that particular question? [speaker001:] Yes. [Mrs Long:] Mrs Long, North Yorkshire County Council. [Mr E Barnett:] Wait a minute, pull the microphone towards you. [Mrs Long:] Mrs Long, North Yorkshire County Council. I did the demographic projections, erm, I think the difference that, er, Mr Grigson is talking about between dwellings and households comes about within the ability of the Chelmer model to input, erm, tt, calculated dwelling requirements. Now I did it in one method and Mr Grigson did it in er in a second method, and the ability to do that changes the number of households that it would project to the er the dwellings, and cancels out, this makes judgements erm on the actual population projections based, which are estimates that have come out, I don't necessarily believe the best measured estimates have come out for York, and have adjusted some of the figures in accordance with that. Now I'd like to emphasize this as because within York area it saw a difference between the census counts to the actual base population of a growth of five point seven two percent. This is more than the change that inner London received, and I think it's quite unbelievable that York's population, base population is actually starting of from the figure of er a hundred and three, a hundred and four thousand, and I think York City Council will agree with that in any case, erm, the new major estimates for nineteen ninety two would already suggest that that population's declined by a further thousand, which I think emphasizes that these major estimates are estimates, and because of the differ the difficulties within the census for nineteen ninety one, with under enumeration, some problems may have occurred. Erm, so I'll agree with Mr Grigson that we do suggest there are more households changing their own dwellings, but it's simply because we're trying to iron out of the problems that we feel have occurred within the major estimates. [Miss D Whittaker:] What's your projection for the city? In terms of additional households, ninety one, two thousand and six, please. [Mrs Long:] Erm, just one moment please... four thousand two hundred. [Mr E Barnett:] Four? [Mrs Long:] Four thousand two hundred. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mr Grigson, is that moving in the direction which you wished to get an answer to your question? [Mr Steven Grigson:] Well it, it, it, it's moving a bit in that direction, I mean I knew what their prediction was cos they kindly supplied it to me, which is why I made the point, but I mean as as you know from our proof we have a higher view of the demographic requirements in York even than that, for reasons that were amply discussed in general on on day one, to do with vacant dwellings, mortality, and I think still probably a difference in migration between us on York, which is statistical rather than environmental, but I think it is important to to have that established early on that that even in the County Council's view, and with their, as it were, doubts about the statistics which they themselves use, that er there is more need generated in York, however much it is, than York itself can accommodate, and that is of course without York city's seven hundred addition for reducing concealed and sharing households which is not in the County Council's figures. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, er [cough] I see from the supplementary proof which you have put in the other day, I mean your calculations of York's requirements is six thousand six hundred. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] No doubt we will return to that. Mr Donson. [Mr Roy Donson:] Thank you. Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. I'd like to take up some points as they've occurred this morning. Erm, the first point relates to erm affordable housing targets in York, and the consequences that that has in relation not only to York but other areas, on the on the assumption that that there is, there has to be an overspill to to adjou adjacent areas. Erm, I heard Mr Curtis say that the shortfall of affordable houses was seven hundred, he had a target of two thousand two hundred and felt they could find fifteen hundred somewhere already, so another shortfall of of seven hundred [cough] that actually contrasts with para'four one one of the one eleven should I say, four one eleven, of the York housing strategy, which has been submitted, and appendix four of the York evidence which actually says that, yes there's a two thousand two hundred target, but there would still be a shortfall of about one thousand one hundred dwellings if this land, they're talking about land that they own outside of York, is developed for affordable housing. Well there seems to be a slight mismatch there, and perhaps some of this mismatch is also a part of, with the confusion I have of the various shifting policy of York, in term in terms of their requirement, there has been in the in the not too recent recent past York were saying they had an additional requirement beyond need which they termed their concealed requirement, although it might not be a concealed dwellings, as we might otherwise describe them, of one thousand six hundred, and that has progressively come down to seven hundred as presented at this enquiry. Now it seemed to me that one thousand six hundred was [cough] initially as a result of survey work or shall we say investigation into the housing waiting list carried out by the York housing department, and I have to say that I have a certain respect for the York housing department, and they have a certain reasonable and good reputation within the region as a housing department, and so there seems to me that there is a gr a there is a potential to underestimate er the the affordable requirement that's been put to you, another point erm I'd just like perhaps to seek a little clarification from Mr Curtis, was was unfortunately I was looking something else up or my attention was diverted when he gave some figures for Ryedale and Selby, I think he said, and I'll happily stand corrected on this, that if you take away the York requirement figure from his ten thousand four hundred for Greater York, then the remainder he would apportion to Selby and Ryedale, so that Selby got four thousand two hundred, sorry, so that Ryedale got four thousand two hundred and Selby got one thousand seven hundred, erm that doesn't add up to ten thousand four hundred and I I I in total, and I I wondered where the rest was coming from, if I the point correctly. [Miss D Whittaker:] My note indicates that what Mr Curtis said was that on a pro rata to their existing [Mr Roy Donson:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] population levels i in the area of Greater York, an allocation would suggest that, he wasn't advocating that, it was just a pro rata ball park estimate, and he didn't purport to make it add up to the residual requirement... okay? [Mr Roy Donson:] It's it's still one thousand two hundred dwellings short, and I don't know where there going to go. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] Thank you Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. There's a few issues I'd like to cover from a number of comments, I'll I'll I'm sorry. [Mr E Barnett:] You hadn't finished? [Mr Roy Donson:] No I hadn't. [Mr E Barnett:] Alright, hold your horses then Mr Curtis. [Mr Roy Donson:] to two points [Mr E Barnett:] You can pick that Do you want those picked up? No? [Mr Roy Donson:] Yes, my other points about Ryedale anyway. [Mr David Curtis:] Er yes Chair, first of all the the last point first as it were, the erm Senior Inspector is quite correct what I was doing was allocating the nine seven figure that the County had proposed in H One, er that's why it doesn't add up add up to ten four, clearly I haven't done the calculations for ten four, but on the basis that erm there are seven hundred extra dwellings going into Ryedale, I think Mr Donson can work that one out. Erm in connection with erm with reference to the York area housing strategy, again, there is a simple explanation, in that that that document was prepared before the current work on the City of York draft local plan, had progressed to a stage at which members had considered housing sites, and a number of sites in City Council ownership erm within the city, covering some four hundred dwellings have now been agreed by the City Council members as coming forward over the planned period for affordable housing, and in the case of two of those sites it actually requires sites to be taken out of use as public car parks, to bring them forward for development, and that is why the eleven hundred figure is actually reduced now to to a seven hundred. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Donson, do you want to continue now? [Mr Roy Donson:] Er yes, thank you very much. Sorry, my my my other point is about about Ryedale, and and and its its and its its unde its relationship to Southern Ryedale, and erm Mr Smith said that erm as far as Ryedale Council are concerned they can't identify any more land within Southern Ryedale, well of course they would say that because was there position at the Southern Ryedale plan, but the fact of the matter is that there was a great dispute at the York greenbelt Southern Ryedale plan enquiry,revol resolving around the issue of what were the bits of the greenbelt which made up the historic character and thereby what were you left with that potentially could be developed, albeit it might be reserved as white land in the first place, but could potentially be developed, and a great deal of this land on the disputed side lay in Southern Ryedale, that in that in fact there was a view around the table not only sh not only shared by by the developers side, but erm that large parts of Osbaldwick and Huntingdon didn't fall within the definition of greenbelt as as set out by by the County Council in their N Y Two Two document, now that matter clearly has got to be something left to the Inspector and the Greenbelt Inquiry, but I think it's fair to point out that there is actually a difference of view, so it's not an absolute position, that you can't identify more land within within Southern Ryedale, and indeed, erm, not that I want to raise the Local Government Commission's head again, but of course the Local Government Commission is proposing that York be a unitary authority expanded, and once Yor, if York does become a unitary authority expanded then some of these areas will fall within their area, and they may have a different view than er the Ryedale current Ryedale district council does, and therefore I think it is a little unsafe to take just at pure se pure face value, that there is no more land within Southern Ryedale that could be developed. [Mr E Barnett:] I think we live with the local authority set up as we have it. Mr Smith, erm, obviously you want to respond to that, but at the same time could I just press you towards your view and it's really relevant to the districts surrounding York, that we know you can live with the figures of provision as set out by the County Council in the alteration, how ar are you aware of the figures which are being proposed by other participants in the discussion for Greater York? [Mr Ian Smith:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] You are? Could you comment on whether you could live with an expanded requirement, er in South Ryedale? And if you could, how would you see it being met? I suspect you've already made that answered that that question. [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Erm yea,i I'll come back on that a couple of points, erm regarding Mr Donson erm and the Southern Ryedale and York greenbelt local plan inquiry. The site that was identified or potentially identified by by the house builders in York was a site which both the County Council and the District Council considered performed a number of greenbelt functions, I think that it would be accepted that in any development plan land should only be allocated if there were some degree of certainty that it would come forward for development within the plan period, the site that was identified, there had been no objections made to the Southern Ryedale local plan so therefore there were no indications that it would have come forward for development within that plan period anyway, had it been identified, had it been allocated. Erm regarding the question of erm additional sites for housing, I erm if I can turn to erm Barton Willmore's G One Ten erm in paragraph... [Mr E Barnett:] Can I, can I just pause you there? Have you had a copy of, dare I say it, the tabulation which was produced by the panel, which summarized the various er submissions, and if I just read them to you. The H B F figure for Greater York was twelve thousand three hundred, the Barton Willmore figure was twelve thousand seven hundred, but they did break it down on a district basis, and they gave five six five o to Ryedale, and then Michael Courcier, represented by Mr Sedgewick, a much more modest figure of ten thousand six hundred, for Greater York. [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Erm, as I've said before, I have reservations about whether a much increased figure about above the County Council's er proposal could be accommodated within Ryedale District Council, and I if the figure above that is proposed I would suggest that the extra is accommodated within the new settlement, which I presume the ar argue answer you would have expected from Ryedale, erm Barton Willmore's figure is based on an assumption that they believe that within Ryedale there is a capacity to increase past building rates, I would refute that, erm the building rates in Southern Ryedale I would suggest were abnormally high, because of the development of Clifton Moor airfield, the North Western part of the Southern Ryedale district, sorry South Western part. The land there is now nearly exhausted, and I would suggest that building rates in future years are in fact likely to decrease from what were abnormally high figures in the in the past ten year period. [Mr E Barnett:] Yep, er er yes. L coming back to your other point I mean your saying you could not physically, or you would not wish to accommodate, let me put it that way, you would not wish to accommodate anything more than is now you're you're making provision for within the South Ryedale local plan [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith [Mr E Barnett:] can I just just pursue that you said said so the if you embarked on another scenario, and you said that the only way in which extra over, that beyond the figure proposed by the County Council, would be by way of a new settlement, I'm sort of transgressing my own ground rules here, I know that Ryedale has expressed support for the principle of a new settlement, are you saying that you would be looking for a new settlement, possibly in Ryedale? [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. We would be looking for a new settlement in the best location around Greater York. [Mr E Barnett:] I thought you'd say that. [Miss D Whittaker:] Was that meaning yes or no? [Mr Ian Smith:] Yes we support the principle, but the question about whether or not it should be in Ryedale district has not been erm answered by our members, and indeed it it we consider it should have wait, I mean this is answering something that'll be discussed at later within this issue, something that should not be er assessed until after the er [Mr E Barnett:] Well, let's put it on the shelf for the time being. But I, we're going to have to discuss when we get to H Two just how you're going through the process of actually finding a site. If, you know, finding a site for a new settlement is an acceptable way forward, but I, let's leave it on the shelf for now. Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] Thank you, Chair. Er David Curtis, York City Council. I'd just like to comment on two or three issues that were raised earlier. Clearly we do not wish to go through the same debate that we had at the greenbelt inquiry, erm but it is very relevant erm you'll see from our submissions to the panel that er quite clearly the City Council did not agree entirely with the proposed boundary of the greenbelt, the City Council did take the view that there were certain areas of land proposed to be included in the greenbelt er which did not fulfil a greenbelt function in the Council's view, and that was clearly was discussed at the greenbelt inquiry, it was not just one site, er we clearly were not not in our er responsibility to identify a specific site outside our district, but there were a number of areas er subject to those objections, not just from ourselves, but as Mr erm Donson has said er from various objectors. The greenbelt boundary as I mentioned earlier as proposed by the County Council is very tightly drawn, excluding the sites which have been mentioned which our allocated, there is no land between the edge of the urban area and the proposed greenbelt boundary and that does seem to us, continues to seem to us er not an appropriate way forward. In terms of the [Mr Peter Davis:] I'm sorry David, I thought [Mr David Curtis:] In terms of the definition of er what is historic York I think again an issue we went over for some length of time at the greenbelt inquiry, I would draw your attention back to my earlier comments that York is basically a modern industrial city with a very precious historic core, that historic core er represents no more than actually five percent of the built up area, that something like eighty five percent of the city was built after eighteen hundred, the view that was expressed by the County in N Y Two, in terms of the definition of the greenbelt, the Greater York greenbelt and its purposes was not accepted by the City Council, we do not accept that all of the func elements of the York greenbelt contribute towards preserving the character of the historic city, we rely on the the fact that the two comments the Senior Inspector made at this, the the green wedges and historic core itself that establish the historic character of the city, there are many parts of the edge of York which could repli be replicated in many cities, historic or otherwise around the country... and finally just coming back to the issue of scale of development erm the point I should have made earlier about the house builders figures for the city of York is that the house builders did suggest a figure of four thousand for the city, erm, I'm not aware on what basis that was made, but clearly my evidence would quite clearly indicate that I believe that could not be accommodated, certainly on any known sites within the cit current city boundary, thank you Chair. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Sedgewick, can I just ask Mr Sedgewick to [cough]. [speaker001:] Sedgewick, Michael Courcier, and partners. As you know from our submission, sir,n we've taken a more modest requirement for the Greater York area, and that's based to some extent upon what we think is is achievable there, we're not saying that erm the figure should not be higher, we're not saying that the H B F figure for instance should nu not be er put in there, but what we're saying is if that higher figure does go in because of the clear constraints on the provision of additional land the the higher figure may well mean that there's a need for two new settlements ra rather than just one. The approach we've taken which is set set out in our our submission in section seven, we've we believe that maybe some nine hundred additional sites could be found, this is in addition to the existing allocations, er some nine hundred additional sites could be found within Greater York, by making changes to the boundary of the greenbelt, we you do it the greenbelt is too extensive in some parts, it can be rolled back without affecting the the purpose, erm Mr Donson's already already identified those areas, if that's the case, on our figures a settlement of fourteen hundred plus nine hundred on other sites is is is quite achievable. In the longer term, if there i is a need for a for addi additional supply that can be be done by increasing the size of the segment or or using some of this additional land. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Thank you. Mr Davis. [Mr Peter Davis:] This is very brief and solely for the record, Chairman, at the York greenbelt local plan inquiry the City Council made one objection, and one objection only, in respect of sites, and that was a site that straddled the York Selby boundary, that was there only expressed concern on sites specific objection, one site in the entire plan. That's a matter of record. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [cough] Well I think, probably ought to make it clear of course that we won't have available to us the greenbelt local plan enquiry, so Well certainly not in the period during which we're going to be discussing the various submissions, er un un at the E I P, now Mr Heselton, erm in a way your comments yesterday would probably be taken that Selby could cope, or would be prepared to cope, even with additional development, now you better sa tell me whether that's true or false, and I'm thinking particularly of that element of Greater Sel, of Selby which is in Greater York. Er, yes that's that's true to a degree, Chairman. Er Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm well in in the context of what I did say yesterday it'll come as no great surprise to anyone that like Ryedale we also accept the North Yorkshire County County figures, erm which in short we we find are based on reasonable assumptions and and and an appropriate methodology, compared to some of the more extreme interpretations and projections that have that have been put forward, if I can illustrate that point by reference to er potential building rates, that the highest figure that's been suggested is the one put forward by Mr Grigson, of Barton Willmore, I'm talking for the moment about Greater York generally, and I'll come onto the Selby aspect in a minute. That's a suggested figure of twelve thousand seven hundred, which imply a building rate of eight hundred and forty six a year, in comparison with the adopted re er rate in the in the adopted plan of six o six and an actual building rate of seven o one, er [cough] my re calculation shows that that would be a thirty nine percent increase, over the adopted plan rate, and a twenty one percent increase over the actual rate. In comparison the er the the smallest projection put forward by Mr Thomas, would actually result in a twenty one percent decrease in building rates over that approved in the adopted adopted plan, and a thirty two percent increase over the actual rate experienced since nineteen eighty one. So I don't find either of those those two alternatives acc acceptable largely on the basis of of the arguments put put forward yesterday. Mhm, yes. So coming back more specifically to Selby, and taking er Mr Curtis's ball-park figure of of seventeen hundred, erm now already we've we've got approximately eight hundred and fifty committed in terms of a hundred and eighty con er completions, five hundred and sixty permissions including conversions, and a hundred and ten dwellings identified on a site at Elvington in in the Greater York study, and there's really not a great deal more flexibility, erm, because of the greenbelt constraint. We fully support and endorse the deposit greenbelt boundaries, then I think it's inescapable that at at some point that is going to lead us to leapfrogging over the greenbelt boundary, at some stage during the the the plan period, there may well be sufficient erm commitment and identified sites to to mop up in in the short term, but by the end of of the plan period it's it's my belief that there will be a need to address this issue by bringing forward proposals for a new settlement, er which obviously Selby district er full fully supports. And you would see that as an inevitable er way forward if you want to meet the housing provision in strategic terms in Greater York. That's that's right, I mean I I I would suggest that we've arrived at that point now, and we're increasingly likely to do so, because as we've already heard York is very constrained, it's it's it's a relatively small, compact, historic city, the greenbelt boundaries are drawn fairly tightly, correctly in so in in my opinion, and there's really not much room for manoeuvre within with er in a existing settlements within the greenbelt. Thank you. Mr Donson. [Mr Roy Donson:] Er Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. I just wanted to take up the point that's been raised again, and it keeps popping its its little head up from time to time, this issue of building rates. I would say to you that the history of North Yorkshire County is that the house house builders have built, more or less the building rate of planning policy, whatever that has been, and that is a matter of fact, and if and if and if we are in a situation where the market is being fettered, as is the policy, and it's not a policy which we are seeking to go away from specifically, and it is inevitable that the [cough] house builders will build to whatever the policy building rate is, and comparisons of one building rate with another are simply telling you what's happened in the past, not what needs to happen in the future er in terms of meeting the housing requirement, and quite clearly in any area where you are introducing a new settlement, if indeed that's the conclusion we come to, er late later on, erm and I hope we do, but if we are introducing a new settlement you are bound to skew the building rates, and the more and more you reduce the area in which you consider what the building rate effect is the more and more that it actually gets skewed, er and erm you know, quite frankly, when the developers built a new estate at the end of my particular street the building rate went up alarmingly in my area, er and er you know, we can go on forever like that, I just think it's very misleading to just deal with the judgement of building rates. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Thomas. [Mr Peter Davis:] Thank you. I had thought that builders built houses when they thought they thought they could sell them, I didn't realize it was part of some altruistic policy of complying with planning policy, still we learn everything every day, don't we? Erm, sir, I want to address the point, if it's the right time about the level of housing provision the Greater York area in particular, erm that we've seen round the table here that we have special circumstances applying to York, and to its surrounding area. Erm I won't dwell on York city centre and its historic core because you're all clearly aware of that, but it its setting was accepted at the greenbelt enquiry as being sufficiently important to warrant protection wider than just its physical, existing physical limits, erm the special protection was accorded also to the the special character rather was accorded also to the surrounding countryside, much of which is very attractive, and many of the typical Yorkshire small villages and hamlets that surround the area as well, er and we're clearly in a position in Greater York which is different from the position that arises in many other counties and many other districts within this county, we're in a position of grave shortage of suitable, developable land, we're in a position of high quality er character, and landscape, we're in a position where York, in particular, has extremely good transportation links, to the Leeds Bradford conurbation, where we discuss at length over the last two days there are policies for urban regeneration, subject to regional planning guidance in that area erm and we're in a position where quite clearly York is under pressure, a great deal of pressure from migrants, er because it's a it's an attractive location to live. When you put all these factors together it concerns me that nobody has been advancing the case that as with other districts, some other districts in York, it would be appropriate, even more appropriate in my view, that the migration assumption should be discounted, there are in my view special reasons why this should be the case, special reasons over and above tho those that have been applied, to the other districts, this in my view would be that the Greater York housing provision for all those reasons I've just highlighted, should be reduced, should be reduced to the seventy five percent level, in other words that would be reducing it by between a thousand and twelve hundred and fifty houses, now I won't get on to the reason that the fact that that's one reason why there's no need for a new settlement, erm but it is a reason in its own right just to protect the character and the capacity requirements and the environmental sensitivities of the Greater York area. A second factor which I'd like to raise, and please stop me, sir, if I'm not playing your ground rules here, is to get back to the original point made by Mr Davis, as to how this figure is going to be split between the districts, I think it's absolutely essential that this figure is split between the districts, and it may well be, if you decide, sir, to recommend in favour of the new settlement that you may have to leave that as a floating figure to go around the districts, at the moment it is not. I would like to have more information from the County, or anyone else from the table for that matter, how this figure's going to be split, clearly P P G requires it to be split between district, and I'd like to see it split on that basis. Thank you, sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you, Mr Thomas. Erm I I get the impression from what you're saying is that there is a distinct strategic view which should be taken about York and its role, which in a way would tend to limit the amount of housing development you should be putting in and around York. [Mr Peter Davis:] Indeed, er and [Mr E Barnett:] And that's the way the authorities should be moving forward with their planning for the county. [Mr Peter Davis:] I think that is the case, doubly so considering the discussion yesterday where we saw, that whether some of the districts liked it or not there is going to be development in excess of the projected figures in their relevant districts over the plan period. There is slack elsewhere to effect a redistribution to the benefit of York and its Greater York area. [Mr E Barnett:] Probably an el well certainly an element which ought to be considered within the umbrella of the R P G but lets [Mr Peter Davis:] Indeed. [Mr E Barnett:] wait and see what comes out of that. Er I'm glad you raised the point about the distribution between the districts, and apart from your comment er I know Mr Davis is opposed to the idea, I haven't discerned a view either way from anyone else, whether they would like them or would not like them. [Mr Peter Davis:] Well it seems to me, sir, that er the new settlement is becoming a bit of a dustbin which people are throwing their unspent allocations in, and then passing it around from district to district [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Peter Davis:] and Selby are the people who are prepared to take it [Mr E Barnett:] I have [Mr Peter Davis:] it maybe it maybe, sir, you should allocate all the housing to Selby, and we can all go home. [Mr E Barnett:] I'm I'm about to apologize to Mr Grigson, because I see from his submission he actually did distribute it by district within the er Greater York area, er [cough] yea, planning by Selby is not I think the right approach, but. Mr Cunnane, sorry, Mr Grigson, you want to come in? [Mr Steven Grigson:] Well i I'm happy, I mean I was just going to make that point, sir, but I do have other points, but I'll wait. [Mr E Barnett:] Can we have Mr Cunnane, then Mr Sedgewick, and then we will have a coffee break. [Miss D Whittaker:] Chairman. Joe Cunnane. My point is a very short one, I I simply need to put it on the record that it is erm our position that the panel should distribute the er ove York overspill, if I can call it that, as well, that the panel should address the issue of distribution, because our fear is th is th is is is the Selby problem, that Selby are embarked upon a clear strategy of er substantial growth, and we do not want to see er the Greater York overspill being unduly er dir funnelled channelled in that direction. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Sedgewick. [speaker001:] Sedgewick, Michael Courcier and partners. Our position in in the submission was that if there is not the the need to distribute York's own population around Greater York, then the argument for a separate Greater York figure disappears. The the original purpose was to to deal with problems arising within the city of York. If you feel from the discussion around the table that the u requirements of York have not been properly reflected in the the published H One figure er and that there is a need to distribute that population, and therefore there is going to be a Greater York figure. The overlap with the districts needs to be eradicated, it's a black hole at the moment, every district can pass a its surplus on to another district, and indeed it would be the last district to prepare a district wide local plan that has to meet the residue of the Greater York requirement, it may maybe a good stimulus for the districts to get on with their local plans, but that's not an planning way. What we would advocate, as indeed Mr Smith did earlier, is that there should be a a global figure for Greater York, and a reduction, in an appropriate reduction in the requirement for each district, and I believe that anticipating you might ask me what that is what that reduction should be, erm I I can say it must be related to the ca capacity, of that district within Greater York. [tape change] [Mr E Barnett:] That proposition presupposes that if you make a reduction in the district figures, then you must have an idea what the district contribution towards the Greater York figure is, er and I find it difficult to see that you can have, if you have a new settlement, if you have a new settlement the C provision for the new settlement floating in this table, erm but can I just say before we adjourn for coffee, that I really would like to have some very firm answers to the questions which are posed under issue two, er and particularly about two D and that is specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. Assuming you end up with a new settlement. Can we break for coffee? [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. [break in recording] [speaker001:] Sir announced the the end of debate one, I certainly wasn't under the impression that it had finished. [Mr E Barnett:] Well, I've got, if you you just bear with me a moment, I still have one foot dragging in H one, but I thought we'd got to the stage where in order to try and clarify thinking on the matter we ought to progress onto H two, erm, that just let me reveal the thinking, erm that, before I do that can I just say in terms of mechanics those of you who have just joined us for the first time, could you turn your name boards round so I can see them, thank you, and when you want to come in the normal practice is to put your name board on end, so it will attract our attention. But just let me come back to the the point I want to make, it is it evident to us from what was said yesterday collectively by the District Councils, that they could live with the figure of forty one thousand two hundred, as proposed by the County Council, without a new settlement. There's a corollary to th that was is our impression, from the various views that were sp s spelt out around the table. You'll have a chance to come back on whether we have got the wrong impression on that, I mean I recall Mr Heselton's quite clearly, but let me pursue that at a stage further if if we take that as our impression of what you have said collectively, and you are asked to make provision for nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, again collectively in the Greater York area, and I'm addressing this question to the districts, what provision would you make in your districts of your district figure in the Greater York area?... Mr Davis, you want to make a comment? [Mr Peter Davis:] Well I was I've looked, Peter Davis, North Yorkshire, I've just glanced down the table at certainly at the er my Greater York district colleagues, and er certainly we er are rather surprised that er you have the impression that you have the impression that er erm we could do without the erm the new settlement, quite clearly erm erm certainly Harrogate, Selby, er and Ryedale, and the County Council, believe the the new settlement is absolutely essential, erm and I think that's erm erm certainly a matter of agreement between er us and those three districts, it's absolutely essential. [Miss D Whittaker:] I think the point, I think the point we're making is that none of the districts yesterday told us that to meet their figure in H one they would need to have a new settlement, for example, I well remember Selby saying to us if we go above our H one figure we would need a new settlement, but they did not say to meet our H one figure we would need a new settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Heselton. [Miss D Whittaker:] It's in that [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry. [Miss D Whittaker:] context that we are ask now want to get clarification from the District Councils as to what proportion of there H one figure would be in the Greater York area. [speaker001:] Er may may I reply, please? Mr Heselton first, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Terry Heselton, Selby District. Er it yes it it's true to tell, gone on record on several occasions saying in terms of environmental capacity there's the potential within Selby district to accommodate eleven and a half thousand dwellings, however I did later qualify those comments with reference to the emerging local plan, which is the main vehicle we've we've got for identifying potential development sites and the the qualification was that was that land is not necessarily available in in the right places, to enable us to make a a reasonable distribution for development in accordance with P P G advice, so that the question of a new settlement remains an extremely attractive option for Selby District, and as I mentioned this morning, in terms of whi we would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwelli whi we would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwellings short, in any case, erm [Miss D Whittaker:] How much are you saying would be in the Greater York area in your district? [Mr E Barnett:] Well I haven't suggested a a figure, I made reference and I also referred to the fact that when you then discounted completions, identified sites, and existing measurements, you would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwellings short. Short of Mr short of Mr Curtis's figure? If if if I be yes, Mr Curtis's ball-park figure. Mhm, so we'll we'll credit you with minus eight fifty, shall we? This probably being the best Er as as a basic starting point yes. Yes. Mr Allanby. [Mr David Curtis:] Er David Allanby, Harrogate Borough Council. Erm first of all Chairman I would confirm that it is our view that with a provision of six thousand five hundred for Harrogate district, we don't think we'd be looking at a new settlement to serve our needs, erm, having said that, we support the Greater York strategy, and we we certainly the level of provision erm for Greater York as proposed by the County Council, er but leaving aside for one moment the issue of a new settlement, it is our view that we'll be able to accommodate the level of growth that I think is anticipated in our district, erm, within the figures, and I'm referring specifically to N Y one, and the table on the last page where there's an indication there of the sort of of er housing numbers that would would have to be accommodated within Harrogate district, and and our part of Greater York is essentially a rural character consisting of a a number of small villages, so there there we have er a total figure of two hundred dwellings to be provided within our part of Greater York, that basically represents erm existing commitments and a a yield from small sites in the future, perhaps conversions, and we'r we're quite happy with that. I think our view is that if that provision was to be any greater, then we would have significant difficulty in accommodating that provision within our part of Greater York, primarily for for greenbelt considerations, not reasons, erm any additional provision would require a rolling back of the greenbelt, er significant provision would have two implications, erm either it would mean peripheral expansion er of York into the greenbelt around York and into our district, we feel that would adversely affect the special character of York, lead to outward sprawl of the York urban area, encroachment into open countryside, and coalescence of the urban area with the villages in our district, er and we we wouldn't want to support that. The other option would be expanding the villages themselves, and we find that that would be equally harmful, so we'd be opposed to any significant additional development in our district over and above that that's that's been assumed in that table. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. If I if m I summarize that, I know Harrogate have supported the principle of a new settlement within the Greater York figure, but you hadn't anticipated that it would bite on your district, if I can use that word. We er haven't er certainly been through or down the road of looking at whether there are sites within our district that that could accommodate that, that exercise is still to be done. But if I put it another way, you could meet your anticipated contribution to the Greater York figure as spelt out in the structure plan? That's right, sir. Ninety seven hundred. Thank you. Mr Jewitt. [Mr Ian Smith:] Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. Erm, before we leave item one D, sir, there are two things that Hambledon would like to say both on the q questions that the Chairman asked, capacity, and also on the principal of breaking down the Greater York figure i into the constituent districts, erm, the first point, on capacity, erm, we feel that we have a very limited capacity, er to accommodate development needs advising in Greater York, you'll see from our statement that we have just two settlements an, sorry three settlements in two parishes er within the defined Greater York area, Shipton, Beningborough, and Overton. Two of these settlements have just ten and eleven dwellings respectively, erm Shipton is the only settlement of any consequence erm being two hundred and er twenty dwellings. Now, within that overall context it it really would be meaningless to identify a contribution for Hambledon in terms of Greater York, as this erm figures are so are so small. The second point being that erm if a figure was to be identified for Greater York, we'd feel that this would er unduly interfere with our duties and responsibilities as a District Council to allocate land in our district, cos in effect what it would do is direct us to making a housing allocation in one particular settlement, Shipton, we feel that's our responsibility not the County Council. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. Mhm. [Miss D Whittaker:] Isn't [Mr E Barnett:] Go on, go on. [Miss D Whittaker:] Isn't there an argument, and perhaps I am st getting now onto two, matter two, that says from Hambledon's point of view, what has just been said is compelling, is a compelling argument in favour of identifying where the new settlement should go, because that will, at the same time, identify where it should not go? [Mr Ian Smith:] Ah erm well, Chairman, I I think that this is something that's going to cut, as far as Hambledon's got concerns, is going to come up in the erm in the next debate, certainly, erm, the erm, the issue of erm whether policy should be expressed in terms of principle and criteria, or erm area and a district as being a dilemma erm to Hambledon, erm, it feels it's erm erm not being able to support the policy as defined, because ultimately the Council would object to a new settlement in Hambledon. Erm, and therefore it feels it would be disingenuous of it to support the principle at this stage, it may well lead to a situation where were encouraging the County to go down a particular route, but only to get to the very end of it for us to pull the rug from beneath the County's feet. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. Yes, erm we are aware of the the view that the District Council have expressed, about the new settlement, that's perfectly clear. But if I just turn your attention to the figures that are postulated in the County Council's N Y one, the tabulation in paragraph twenty on the last page, it's attributed forty dwellings due in Hambledon, more or less. [Mr Ian Smith:] My understanding of the situation in Hambledon is that there are, we're talking only small figures I realize, there are twenty commitments currently, within that area, erm clearly there are going to be some unidentified sites come forward erm, I don't wish to er critical of that figure, I would accept the figure. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry? [Mr Ian Smith:] I would accept that figure and [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Yes. Mr Smith, Ryedale. [Mr Ian Smith:] Chairman. Ian Smith Ryedale District. I've already said this morning that the District Council does not consider that it can accommodate any further dwellings within the Southern Ryedale area without adversely affecting the character of the settlements that are already there, or compromising greenbelt objectives, erm, so therefore to meet the Greater York total, the District Council considers it essential that there is a new settlement to take that amount of housing that cannot be accommodated within the Southern Ryedale area. [Mr E Barnett:] What figure can you accommodate in South Ryedale? [Mr Ian Smith:] Part of. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry, in Rye in the Ryedale part of the Greater York. [Mr Ian Smith:] If you look at table, at the County Council's M [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Ian Smith:] Y one, erm [Mr E Barnett:] Is that the one you can live with? [Mr Ian Smith:] We could live with that figure, and indeed our local plan is based on on that sort of a figure, being accommodated within that area. [Mr E Barnett:] And the York figure we take as three thousand three hundred, Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] Dave Curtis, York City Council. Yes, sir. [Mr E Barnett:] And ou and going back to Mr Heselton, he has said i, I've got a negative factor for him at the moment in terms of minus eight fifty, but let let me let me take the figure which is actually quoted in the County Council's table of nine fifty dwellings. Is it nine fifty, or is it something slightly higher, or something less? Er, Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm, I believe the figure of nine fifty also includes a an allowance for windfalls windfalls. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mr Heselton, I understood you said when we started this debate that you were eight hundred and fifty short, or thereabouts, of Mr Curtis's pro-rata figure, which was four thousand two hundred. Did I misunderstand? [Mr E Barnett:] No, er Mr Curtis's er hypothetical figure [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] of seventeen hundred. Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] I beg your pardon? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Which takes you back to nine fifty. Sorry, eight fifty. Eight fifty, more Yes. or less. Yes. Hypothetical. So in progressing through there, and I'm sorry we haven't done it this way, we end up in terms of the County Council figure of nine seven hundred for Greater York, possible er provision from, collectively from the districts of about fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred short. Is my arithmetic correct? Yes. Thank you. Mr Grantham. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Erm [Mr E Barnett:] And then Mr Thompson. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Er I just want wanted to to pick up on your your opening remarks, sir, after coffee, that that the impression you had was that the the the districts, erm, could live with a that the County Council figures. Erm with without a new settlement erm that that was indeed the the impression that erm I was left with as well, and what what we've sought to do in in the evidence that we've we've put before you is to take the nine seven, nine thousand seven hundred figure in Greater York, and and er s based on the data supplied by the County Council to to demonstrate that that actually when one looks at outstanding commitments erm with planning permission, identified the sites er without planning permission, those those that are allocated in local plans, making suitable allowances for small sites erm windfall sites and conversion, erm the the residual figure that is left in Greater York, which I calculate to be eight thousand six hundred and thirty seven, once one has taken away completions, which I think is an agreed figure between nineteen ninety one and nineteen ninety three of one thousand and sixty three, that erm, those existing commitments, and the sites likely to come forward,ma virtually match the figure for the outstanding housing requirement, so so one is left with a view that erm from from the data that's put in front of us that there isn't a residue of that size to to accommodate, although I accept that there may well be a residue of some sort, erm and it seems to me that the established Greater York erm framework, er is is the process by which that is distributed around the counties along the lines that the discussion's proceeded this morning. [Miss D Whittaker:] In that context I think it would be helpful to us erm if we could have submitted to us a version of the table originally submitted by the H B F relating to commitments. Relating solely to the Greater York area. If you remember at the end of yesterday, Mr Donson will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, he fige finished up, we started the day with a total guaranteed minimum of about thirty three and a half thousand, we got that up by arithmetic to thirty four point nine thousand, and I think we finished up at around thirty six thousand at the end of the day. I think it would be very helpful to the panel to know what proportion of that thirty six thousand is within the district, within the Greater York area, don't ask for that to be done now, because it may well involve some difficult arithmetic, perhaps it's tonight's homework. [Mr E Barnett:] Is that possible Mr Donson? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Roy Donson:] Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation, it's not possible by me, no, but [Mr E Barnett:] Right. [Mr Roy Donson:] I'll I'll leave it to the [Mr E Barnett:] Your sources your sources of supply are on the other side of the room. [Mr Roy Donson:] Indeed they are, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Thomas. [Mr Peter Davis:] Yes, thank you, sir. I think that the districts there possibly given the exception of Selby have taken a rather cautious approach as to what they anticipate being built in their areas within the Greater York area itself er over the next thirteen years. Er a similar cautious approach which none of them took yesterday when on examination it was found that there was more potential there than before, erm so to help with the figures I have found very helpful erm appendix eight to the er York City Council erm statement, I think it appears in both of their statements [paper rustling]... appendix eight Greater York housing provision [rustling of papers]... sorry, could could I also direct you at the same time to the County Council's N Y five appendix three [rustling of papers]... now the, the two make interesting comparisons because they both start of with the same H one proposal of nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, and I'll remind you there, sir, that only five thousand seven hundred of those are required by the existing population, four thousand of those are for migrants, and the two schedules go of in slightly different directions under the heading of completions, and the reason for that, sir, is that the the Greater York, the er County Council's figures, as you can see were computed in October nineteen ninety two when only seven hundred dwellings had been completed, yet six months later, under item C for the Greater York er housing provision figure, York Ci York City Council figures, the completions were one thousand and sixty three. Erm, I'll not go through the whole of this table sir, but I do want you to look at the next column, outstanding planning permissions. In October nineteen ninety two the outstanding planning permissions were three thousand three hundred and fifty, in April nineteen ninety three, there were three thousand four hundred and seventy three. In fact sir, the County Council's figures produced in another appendix, can't lay my hands on it at the moment, had put this figure in as three thousand six hundred and fifty, but the nub of those two things are, that over that six month period, we're not only seeing more houses built but we have more consented, and that hasn't affected the residue that appears in the rest of these schedules. Now the County Councils and the City Council's assessment of the capacity of the Greater York study sites are roughly the same, you can see, sir, that as things have moved forward in only a six month period, the City Council calculate there's a residual requirement of nine hundred and forty seven dwellings, only twenty five percent of the migration assumption, none hundred and forty seven dwellings left, compared to the County Council's outdated information which suggested it's one thousand three hundred and thirty five. Both of those figures, sir, exclude any windfalls whatsoever over the next thirteen years, now if that is a justification for a new settlement, I'm a disbeliever. It clearly is not the case, that, we have heard from the city this morning, and in the city alone windfalls have been progressing at the rate of eighty per annum, if it was only half that rate over the next thirteen years we would see five hundred more houses, and that excludes windfalls from the rest of the Greater York area, excluding the city of York. It is quite clear, sir, that on the existing allocations, thirteen years to go, that the figure of nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, if you want to stick by that figure, my view it should be lower because it has too much an assumption for migration in a constrained area, if you want to stick by that figure, the nine thousand seven hundred will be reached without a new settlement, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. Now, a new settlement option is a last ditch option, we're far from being the last ditch here, we're hardly the first ditch. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Grigson. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Thank you, sir. Steven Grigson, Barton Willmore. I will want to come back on the same point that's just been made, but if before I get to that there are some other points that I think I should make in explanation of the lead we have given, if I may call it that, in putting forward the distribution of the Greater York total. I think it's necessary to to set the scene for that to say that in fact as between the County Council and Barton Willmore there's very little difference in what we see are the requirements for the ring around the city, we both have a figure of of six thousand and something quite small. The difference between our figures for Greater York and the County Council's figures for Greater York arise almost entirely within York City, and bi I think been established earlier this morning that some overspill, albeit the size maybe in dispute, is necessary from the city into the ring. Erm I think it's also now pretty much common ground that the capacity of York city is around three thousand three hundred, but I think in in in taking an view on that, and in taking any view o on future windfalls, it is necessary for the panel to keep in mind that historically in the nineteen eighties windfalls were coming through at a time when it was not a adopted local plan for the city of York, so to some extent anything by definition of a substantial size was likely to be a windfall, erm, but also more to the point than that definitional point, I would expect to see, and I think what Mr Curtis has said earlier on that the local plan is likely to tighten up on criteria for release of sites, both small and large, he referred to the shortage of open space, and I would expect to see a policy change in short, a policy climate change, within the city of York that would constrain past historical rates of windfall release. So that I think the situation affecting the Greater York area is that there wis there is a requirement to accommodate within the ring part of the needs of the city, and on our best estimate that er I apologize for the word overspill, but it it is descriptive, is of the order of three thousand three hundred dwellings to be accommodated in the ring which after the needs of York. I don't intend to discuss the housing, whether seven hundred acres, sorry seven l land for seven hundred houses is owned by the City of York, that's not part of our case one way or the other, but we have offered you a distribution of the Greater York provision figure between the districts, because from Barton Willmore's very extensive experience of participation in local plan work up and down the country, I think we share the view that er City of York have, that Ryedale have, my colleagues to the left and right on this side of the table have, that there does need to be a distribution, otherwise there will be at best confusion as to whether local plans comply with the structure plan, and at worst a game of of pass the parcel and everybody will be conforming, but nobody will actually be possibly meeting the figures, and that is the situation that I don't think anybody would wish to see as a result of er the outcome of of alteration number three, I mean I don't know how the County Council would would really be able to to say whether they thought a local plan conformed to the structure plan, without knowing what that distribution was, perhaps in some bottom draw manner which is not now the approved way of going about these things, so that I think there does need to be a distribution for the proper planning of York, and before coming on to our to explain our figures a little bit, I should also say, perhaps in in response to remarks Mr Thomas made earlier on about the general character of the York area and the need to to protect that, that that course is precisely what the greenbelt is for, and what it does, it isn't necessary to extend that concept across the whole of the vale of York, and therefore to seek to er discount migration outside the greenbelt. That is what the greenbelt is actually there for, and if you have it there for that purpose, as I said yesterday, the necessary corollary is that you have additional provision beyond it, and I can't resist to offer Mr Wincup some support, I'm sure one piece of evidence that he gave you about the letter from the Parish Council, he's probably already replied to that Parish Council saying, as you're in the York greenbelt have no fear, all the Selby needs will pass straight across your heads and land somewhere else. The erm point about are distribution within Greater York is that we have attempted to look at this in what I think is a a rational and realistic manner, we have looked, and you'll see this from our supplementary paper, I apologize for its lateness, but I think it's benefited from the additional thought that could be given to it, we have looked both backwards, at the present day, and forwards, we've looked backwards at past build rates, we've looked at the present day position in the sense of the population shares within Greater York, and we've looked forwards in terms of the commitment figures that are given in the N Y one paper that we've just been looking at, and taking all those things into account, and adding in what we see as the right location for a new settlement, namely Selby district, we come to the figures that are in our supplementary paper, and there is clearly a great deal of common ground between the evidence you get from looking either at past building rates or population shares, as now, or future commitments which all point towards a broadly similar distribution, we say, with the addition of a new feature namely the new settlement, so that I commend those figures to you as somebody who's actually dared to put their toe, or maybe their whole body into the water, and given you not only some numbers, but also a basis by which if you should er have a different Greater York figure in mind, a basis on which that could be rationally er approached, I would not certainly defend to the last ditch the need to put a figure of fifty dwellings into the structure plan for the Hambledon part of Greater York, there may be a cut off point beyond which you don't go, but certainly for Ryedale and Selby, with very substantial numbers there is a need to indicate what the appropriate division should be, and you could not for instance indicate what the er Ryedale non Greater York figure was, without someone telling us the, as the Chairman rightly said, having an idea of what the Ryedale Greater York figure should be, so it isn't really I think feasible to have district figures for non Greater York, and one Greater York figure, that doesn't er get away from the issue, and nor does it solve the potential for confusion. My final point, is that, and we have had it raised this morning, erm from er I think it was consultants on behalf of the C P R E that there was sufficient capacity within Greater York, and they referred to a table in their and their submission. I had a close look at that table, obviously a matter of some interest and that's the reason I return to this, as I read the table, there is a very substantial amount of double counting within it, for this reason, that all outstanding er planning permissions are included once, and there are then separate categories of allowance for all types of sites, namely large windfalls, conversions, small sites, and allocated sites, those are all put in, er or most of them are put in at thirteen years worth, that being the remainder of the plan period to two thousand and six, it will not have escaped you that if you include thirteen years worth all the existing commissions are part of that thirteen years, and so simplest approach to correct that table would simply to discount the outstanding commitments, because they're all counted again as part of the thirteen years, I do have a secondary point that the allowance for conversions is very much higher than what seems to be happening, and in what is in the tables that er Mr Thomas drew it to your attention from the York City er appendix eight, so that er on on two counts, but mainly the double counting one there is a great deal of er erm optimism, if I can call it that, in that table. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] Thank you Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. Er I merely want to comment on the erm apparent misunderstanding on my comments on windfalls earlier on, erm it has been suggested that we we're tightening down on windfalls, was the quote actually used, erm, there is no intention in the local plan to er ignore the er windfalls, to actually deal with them in a different way than had happened in the past, clearly if sites come forward which are windfalls which are suitable in environmental terms then the City Council will give, as P B G one requires, the appropriate consideration to those applications, what I was merely saying this morning was the the likelihood of such windfalls coming forward, and the scale was clearly going to be substantially less than had occurred in the past, and the the figure of eighty a eighty a year, which was for a five year period, which was quoted to me, erm clearly would not be representative of my expectation of the future. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Er Mr Spittle. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Malcolm Spittle, County Council. [tape change] Erm I was going to pick up on a number of points that have been raised by previous speakers, but erm Mr Grigson and Mr Curtis seem to have er dealt with a few of those, erm just with regard to the the table put in by C P R E, with their figures, I would just agree with Mr Cur er Mr Grigson that there is a very substantial degree of double counting in those figures, there is also a very substantial degree of over provision in the allowance for for conversions, er past conversion rates in Greater York have averaged something like twenty nine dwellings per year, over a fifteen year period your talking about four hundred and thirty five dwellings, which is the figure that both York City Council and ourselves have have made allowance for for conversions, that compares with a figure of a thousand dwellings referred to by the C P R E and I see no foundation for that figure, erm, as I say Mr Curtis already picked up on the point about windfalls rates by Mr Thomas, erm just turning to the difference between the tables er submitted by the County Council and York City Council on the the residue within the er Greater York area, I would accept the figure, the figures put in the tables by Mr er by Mr Curtis, I think that they have picked up the the more recent planning permissions and the completions information, and they also take on board there more recent work on erm development within the city, and I I accept that table. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Smith. [Mr Ian Smith:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. I'd like to comment on Mr Grigson's table, in particular the figure proposed for Ryedale, er his figure is based on the assumption that because Selby gets the new settlement it therefore gets a corresponding reduction in house building elsewhere in the Greater York portion of Selby. The development strategy adopted in the Greater York study never envisaged that the settlement, or the district that got the new settlement would therefore get a corresponding reduction in the amount of land it had to provide to meet the needs of the Greater York area, the strategy we use to identify sites within the Greater York area that could be developed without compromising greenbelt objectives, and that the new settlement would be added on outside that area without a reduction in that that figure. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. Mr Cunnane. [Miss D Whittaker:] Er Joe Cunnane,Sa representing Sam Smith's Brewery Tadcaster. Just like to make a comment on Mr Grigson's submission erm points on erm the Greater York figure. First of all I should point out that the Nor the County Council er figure of none thousand seven hundred is actually a figure for local needs plus one hundred percent migration, and if you follow Mr Thomas's figures that leaves a residual requirement of nine hundred and forty seven dwellings without any windfalls over the next thirteen years, which is quite inconceivable, so in order to establish his point on the need for the new settlement on tha on on his figures, the Bar Mr Grigson of Barton Willmore has to up the figure for Greater York to twelve thousand seven hundred, as set out in his erm paper. The s the point I would make is that first of all I don't accept that twelve thousand seven hundred is er a tenable figure but that, probably the more important point is that there has to be a policy response, and a policy response to this issue demands that there is at least some response to the mi to the level of migration er you know my my my view has been put forward very clearly about that, but I would simply make make the point for the record that even accepting one hundred percent migration, there is no statistical case for a new settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Sedgewick. [speaker001:] Sedgewick, Michael Courcier and Partners. The may maybe I just comment on that that last that last point, which as I understand it it the the justification for a new settlement is brought about solely by increasing the requirement for Greater York to twelve thousand seven hundred, going through those figures there seems to me, for instance, for both Ryedale and Selby to be more provision than could be met in a single settlement, I I think the the figures put forward by Barton Willmore are more than can be met in existing allocations and a single new settlement of a reasonable size. So I I think the new settlement remains justified even with the significantly lower figure for Greater York. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. Thank you. I noted the point, erm I think to some extent we probably can now move forward to H two, in in a proper sense, but I'll ask Mr Davis er A if he wishes to give some reaction to the last few comments er and then your lead in to H two. [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Mr Grigson said he really. [] [Mr E Barnett:] I assume Mr Grigson, as he hasn't raised his board has said all he wants to say at this stage on the points that have been made. [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] In relation to factor. [] [Mr E Barnett:] Do you want anything else on matter one, Mr Grigson. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Mr Grigson, for Barton Willmore. I don't feel any need to respond on on Ryedale o or to Michael Courcier. There was one little bit of leftover, as you've given me an opportunity before I depart, and that was that erm we did discuss earlier today, under this heading the possibilities of erm their being sites on the inner edge or between the built up area, or there might become sites between the built up area and the inner edge of the greenbelt, I think the implication was they may be in Ryedale. My understanding is that A those don't exist at present within the deposit plan, but if they did at some future date, for any reason, that their function would be to be used after two thousand and six to sustain the permanence of the greenbelt. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Mr Davis. [Mr Peter Davis:] Yes. I think just two points. Er erm we think the nine thousand seven hundred dwellings based on one hundred percent migration for the Greater York area is the appropriate strategic approach erm for the Greater York area, the County Council does not see the need for any policy intervention in terms of migration, in respect of Greater York in the way it feels is necessary in respect of er of four other districts. Erm on a general point about the ability to find extra land, erm in and around the urban area erm of York, particularly erm on the inner edge er of the greenbelt. Having been through the six months of the greenbelt local plan enquiry, I can say quite clearly to this er examination in public, that I doubt whether there is the land available erm er around the inner edge erm erm to increase the level of of housing development in and around the city without seriously prejudicing greenbelt objectives. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Now, before you make your opening statement in the context of H two we have some extra papers to distribute.... [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Er, Mr Donson leaving us? [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Mr Grigson leaving us. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] They both are. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] It would be appropriate to say something [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] to them. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Is Donson coming back?... Is Grigson coming back? [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Grigson? I do I don't know. I don't have handy [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Don Donson isn't yet. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Erm. Just a minute. []... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Grigson, are you retiring altogether from the fray? [Mr Steven Grigson:] Yes I am, yes, sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much for your contribution. Thank you.... [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Ah, Mr Brighton. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Mhm. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] No, Mr Mr Donson's with us all this week. []... [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] We've put the slightly put the cat among the pigeons. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Pardon? [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Haven't we put the cat among the pigeons? [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Yes, indeed. It was all that capacity elsewhere. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] I know.. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] I mean that's more capacity than we need to. []... [Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Tosh. []... [Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER]. [whispering] Do your [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] do your black do your white dots drop into the black hole? [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER]. [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] we have a.... Right. []... [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] It's very difficult to roll A and B together. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering]. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Mhm? [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] I wouldn't have said. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] No? Alright. [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] I know what you. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Well what's one new settlement to [] [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] No, two is two is a very important. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Yes, I know that. [] [speaker001:] a copy, a copy of these yet, Which we've nearly. [Mr E Barnett:] Alright. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. Ah.... [sound of paper turning] [Mr E Barnett:] Are you ready to go tell me tell me when. Alright okay. [Miss D Whittaker:] . [Mr E Barnett:] No. Alright. [speaker001:] Thanks. [Mr E Barnett:] So can we now move in the formal sense to looking at the next issue for discussion, which covers policy H two, the Greater York new settlement, and the first part of the issue which we shall address is, does the proposed Greater York new settlement represent an appropriate and justified policy response to the assessed development land requirements of the Greater York area, and I'll ask Mr Davis to make his introductory statement. [Mr Peter Davis:] Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council. Thank you Chairman. I'll go straight into er item two A I think the first thing the County Council would would wish to say this erm examination is that er today we are really seeing the culmination of I suspect er ten year work erm in Greater York by the Greater York authority and a particularly intensive period of work over the last five years, er by the Greater York authorities, the paper that I put round N Y five the matter two A really addresses the history and why we reached the conclusions corporately that we have and as all as we've already indicated erm progress was able to be made when the Secretary of State included a Greater York er dimension erm into the er into the structure plan in a the first alteration, erm and that enabled a body of work to be undertaken by the Greater York authority, and I think I ought to say at this point that the Greater York authority comprises of the County Council er and five District Councils, and there you have six different councils, all with an interest in the future of Greater York, sitting down together, trying to sort out the way in which the future of Greater York erm ought ought to be developed, and the means they did it did that of course was through the Greater York study, which began in nineteen eighty eight and started off immediately with a study of forty, fifty development, potential development sites, erm in and around er er Greater York which produced a report, as I said in on page three of the of N Y five, around about April nineteen eighty nine, the conclusions of which were quite clearly unacceptable to erm members of the Greater York authority, because they saw quite clearly, and they were supported by the public in this, that to continue peripheral development, which had been the pattern of development in the Greater York area, erm certainly through the sixties and seventies er was unacceptable in terms of its impact on settlements, and particularly er its impact erm on erm erm the York greenbelt which still at that stage erm had yet to be made statutory, and that was again one of the main stimuli to making progress, the need to s formally define er the York greenbelt. The Greater York authorities therefore looked for a widening of the options available, er, in Greater York, and those that have seen the Greater York study, and it is a document that we've put in to the examination will see that there was a fundamental full scale wide ranging er assessment er of all the options er open er within the er Greater York er area and they are er set out erm in pages three er and four of N Y five. The public consultation exercise that was part of that erm Greater York study, and quite clearly the Greater York study was not a statutory plan, it was an informal plan, but it was the only way really that progress could be made in the absence erm of adopted local plans in Greater York, it was essential that that document was pursued to give a framework for the preparation of district local plans er and the greenbelt local plan, and the resolution that followed the consultation and the long body of work, and I'll read it out, was that the development strategy for Greater York from ninety six to two thousand and six should be based on agreed sites within and on the periphery of the built up area, and that the residual requirement be met for the development of a new settlement or settlements located beyond the outer boundary erm of the greenbelt, a quite clearly there's a major policy implication there that a new settlement was not acceptable within the greenbelt but would have to be er outside the outer boundary of the greenbelt, and the public consultation on that er study er attracted widespread support for a new settlement strategy in Greater York, all six authorities agreed that that was the direction er that had to be taken, it also had another benefit in that it enabled work on the York greenbelt local plan erm to proceed and that has now been taken forward to the stage where the enquiry terminated in May, it's a joint enquiry in the greenbelt local plan enquiry, with a Southern Ryedale local plan enquiry in April ninety three, and we would hope that the inspectors report on that six month enquiry, when he considered all the objections to the er greenbelt proposals of the County Council, largely supported by the er District Council will be available er in the near future. The County Council also accepted as part of this oral approach that there was a need for an alteration to the structure plan, because the approved structure plan did not make provision for a new settlement as an element of approved North Yorkshire strategic policy, and we've progressed that erm alteration through to the examination er in public er today. So the current position is that there's been substantial progress er in Greater York, and I think its testimony to the willingness of the Greater York authorities to work together there that there's been such a level of agreement I think probably er never before achieved in the Greater York area as to the direction that Greater York erm er should take. We think that on balance we have er the majority of the support of the public at large within Greater York, that this is the strategic er approach that is necessary for Greater York, it's necessary to protect the greenbelt and it's necessary to protect communities and villages er in and around erm Greater York. Could I also say one thing finally, and that is the fact that we've tried to run together the alteration and the greenbelt local plan as concurrently er as possible, er it would appear that the timing erm is coming together reasonably satisfactorily erm in that we hope that the report from the greenbelt local plan enquiry, is not to er far distant, erm and we would expect, sir, that you will be reporting on the proceedings at this examination in public er in the not to distant future, well I think I did give an undertaking at the greenbelt local plan enquiry that the County Council, because the two are er interrelated to a degree, that I would expect the County Council would not wish to pursue either report er until er the other er is available, and that seems to the County Council to be entirely sensible, that the two reports, the structure plan alteration and the greenbelt local plan enquiry, erm should be looked at together. There we are, sir, that's erm er er a very brief history erm of erm er of the new settlement strategy, erm it's one clear that the County Council thinks is the appropriate way erm er for the Greater York area er to proceed. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. I noted, and we've already had the flavour of it, in to some respect today, that initially you had almost unanimity of support from the District Councils er York City have changed their view erm and equally Hambledon are very luke warm, if I put it no more than that, er on the idea of a new settlement in the sense that they probably support the principle of the new settlement, but not in Hambledon. But could you comment, and no doubt Mr Curtis will also want to amplify why York er seem to have cooled on the idea. There is a there is reference in your paper to that. [Mr Peter Davis:] Yes. Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council. I mean York City Council will obviously er Mr Curtis will obviously give his views on the situation, erm the particular issue that seems to have changed the mind of York City Council is the reference in P P G thirteen, transport to sizes of new settlement not being erm er desirable in in in transport terms, small scale resettlements. Now there is no definition of what's small erm erm is erm in er P P G er thirteen and perhaps Mr Curtis could help us in due course erm on an assumption that the new settlement was somewhat larger that th what the County Council is proposing, whether that would erm change the view of York City Council, I I think there is another factor again I could be corrected on this by Mr Curtis and this tended to come out in the greenbelt local plan enquiry, er and that York City Council seem progressively to place more importance on peripheral development than on the new settlement strategy [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Peter Davis:] erm that is my general feeling for erm erm erm the position, York's emerging views erm at the greenbelt local plan enquiry erm weren't shared by the districts er which surround the city, or by the County Council. Strictly on P P G two terms er because of the effect er on the greenbelt, but I wouldn't want to go any further than that, that's my impression, Mr Curtis will undoubtably correct me if I'm wrong. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, I mean I noticed from the draft P P G thirteen that they do not define small. How small is small? Mr Curtis, do you want to [Mr David Curtis:] Yes, thank you, Chair. [Mr E Barnett:] come back on that? [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. Erm, clearly their is a a long history of cooperation between the authorities on Greater York, and er I think it is important to explain the development of thinking on that, and the reasons why the City Council has, I would say progressively, er reduced its er the warmth of its enthusiasm to such a state that it's actually become extremely cold now. The original dispersed development strategy ended up with a shortfall, something like two thousand dwellings, compared to the sites which had been agreed between the various authorities at the time, it's also worth noting that that was based on a dwelling target of nine thousand one hundred for Greater York, I think that's correct, over the period since actual sites which have been agreed between the authorities since then have clearly increased, so as you've seen in my appendix eight the residual requirement has now been reduced to a a level of nine hundred and forty seven. The eighty nine strategy was actually supported by four of the authorities including the County Council, but clearly, and I fully appreciate why that decision was made two districts particularly, Ryedale and Selby, felt unable to support the strategy. The City Council, faced with the view that er there was two thousand shortfall in dwellings, that clearly two of our most important neighbours in terms of their land area were unhappy with that proposal, agreed to er proceed to pursue the issue of the new settlement. In that interim period of that work the draft P P G three came out, and made it quite clear that the new settlement would have to lie without beyond the outer edge of the greenbelt, and that was a fur a further consideration. Since that time clearly we've also had a series of further er indications development government guidance on the issue, new P P G one, three, and twelve all produced in March ninety two, which made it quite clear the environmental considerations were to be given greater attention in development plans. P P G three, the revised P P G three when it came out clearly, in my opinion changes the emphasis from the draft P P G three from the draft P P G three, paragraphs thirty two and thirty three which I would emphasize should to be read together, clearly indicates that new settlements are as someone said this morning, sorry, earlier in the discussion today, an issue of last resort. This has further emphasized to ourselves with, I accept our reading of the draft of P P G thirteen, and also more work we've been doing on land in the city, and on the potential traffic implications in particular of further growth outside the ring road. All of those factors lead the City Council to the view that the current level of residual given emerging government advice, the City Council could no longer support the idea of a new settlement of something like fourteen hundred dwellings set in the countryside beyond the outer edge of the York greenbelt. It's interesting to note that actually now we've since made that decision the residual has as I've said come down to nine four seven, so if we do have a new settlement of fourteen hundred we're already ending up with a a higher level of proposed development for Greater York now, the nine seven would obviously be exceeded if we had a fourteen hundred new settlement within Greater York. The further out from York the new settlement goes the less self contained it will be, the more the tendency will be for travel into the city, which is the main service centre to be car based. The belief of the City Council is that, notwithstanding there are clearly difficult traffic problems in the city, there is more opportunity to encourage people to use other more environmentally friendly modes of travel by locating development in and on the edge of the main urban area, a view that's supported by P P G thirteen and the research document onto planning, transport and planning emis planning and transport emissions on which it was based. It's for those reasons, sir, that the City Council feels that it can no longer support the proposed proposals for new settlement, just to come to your question about the issue of scale, I am not able to define what er small is in P P G three, it's obviously been left deliberately vague, but I would draw your attention to the Ucwetec T P A study I've just referred to which makes it quite clear in their terms that to be self contained in transport terms the nearest any settlement ne really needs to be in excess of twenty thousand people. Now I could not countenance, and I'm sure none of the authorities around us could countenance a new settlement that scale in Greater York. If you compare a fourteen hundred new settlement, three thousand people with the new settlements around York, as you've seen in our papers, and some of the papers circulating, it's very similar in size to many of the expanded villages around York, which are all, virtually without exception, commuter settlements for the urban area, so the inevitable consequence of that size of new settlement, in my opinion, be it fourteen hundred, be it two thousand five hundred dwellings, it will be primarily a large housing estate set in the open countryside. On that basis the City Council is doesn't feel able to support to support that proposal. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Can we have the County Council's response to that? [] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Davis, do you want to make any comment on that? [Mr Peter Davis:] Er yes I do, erm [Mr E Barnett:] Before I return to other people. [Mr Peter Davis:] I really don't want to hog the debate because I know there are other [Mr E Barnett:] No it's alright, alright. [Mr Peter Davis:] But certainly one, three things I'd like to respond to erm erm mm Mr Curtis. First of all erm he justified his view on environmental considerations as as considered by the City Council, I think we would say, the County Council, that one of the main considerations that has brought us to the conclusion that we have are environmental considerations, the environment of York and its immeding immediate surroundings, the protection er of the York greenbelt, environmental considerations have been er at the most er in our minds. [Miss D Whittaker:] But if I may interrupt, how do you cope with the argument that Mr Curtis was making that if your settlement is, say, less than two and a half thousand it is no more than a large housing estate which relies on the centre of York for its functions, of service, shopping, entertainment, and therefore that the difference between that the difference between a new settlement beyond the greenbelt and peripheral development, in those terms, is no different. [Mr Peter Davis:] Well Mr Curtis of course is erm is what I would describe as using inflammatory descriptions to try and do down what's going to happen with a a new settlement, erm he seems to be convinced that what we're going to end up with er in Greater York is a development of the sort of er er character that he has described, it would be the clear intention of the local authorities to ensure that an appropriate self contained community erm er is developed, now erm there is no re [Miss D Whittaker:] Is that really feasible at that level? [Mr E Barnett:] Can, sorry, can I I don't want to stray into item matter B. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mm, mm. [Mr E Barnett:] if we can at this stage [Miss D Whittaker:] I just want to get the concept of [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] of the thing clear. Is it really feasible that at the sort of level that's being talked about, be it your level or the level being put forward by some of the objectors to the structure plan, the new settlement could actually hope to provide a good level of comparison shopping, for example? [Mr Peter Davis:] Well can we make it absolutely clear that no settlement, anywhere, er in North Yorkshire, or in York and Humberside probably is self contained. If you want to en try and ensure that you're going to have a self sustained community, one hundred percent, you make sure that presumably you've got a show case cinema with fifteen screens there, er a B and Q, erm a whole range of of facilities that nobody ever needs leave, erm erm erm er that new settlement, the reality of the real world of course is that all settlements to a greater or lesser degree, er have a relationship with other er larger scale settlements, now then let's look at the new settlement, fourteen hundred dwellings, we estimate that that is going to be of the order of around three thousand three hundred people, now that is sizeable, it is not small, it is larger than a number of the small market towns er in North Yorkshire, like Boroughbridge, Settle, it is a significant development erm erm and within it erm there will be a requirement er be a requirement for a a a primary school, it justifies that. Certainly we cannot provide a fully one hundred percent sustainable community, you'd be talking about some vast city to move towards that, erm the re the real world is that the the hierarchy of settlements, erm all settlements, have greater or lesser degree of facilities depending on their size, and there'll be no difference er to the new settlement, and I think to to run an argument on the basis of Mr Curtis er has run it is unfair to the concept of the new settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr Davis, I, I [Mr Peter Davis:] Well there were two other points Chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes go on. [Mr Peter Davis:] Erm, the the reference of last resort was Mr Thomas's reference erm it it is not a reference which I think you find anywhere er in government guidance, and I think what P P G thre three says is the opportunity to to pursue them will be relatively rare, we think this is a relatively rare circumstance, er in North Yorkshire, it's unique, er and it's entirely driven er by justifiable er reasons to protect the the wider environment of Greater York. The third thing, and I gu would have to say it's a bit of a red herring thrown out by Mr Curtis is the issue of traffic growth con concern on traffic growth. Could I say to you that in terms of Greater York the County Council is the highway authority, the County Surveyor advises the County Council on traffic implications as a concept, the County Councillors highway authority is satisfied with the merits er of a new settlement. I won't go any further, because I know there are other flags up rou round the room, Chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Ca can I say, I'm attempting to stick with two A er, I think I'll take Mr Grantham, and then we'll adjourn for lunch. But would you gentlemen who have flagged that you want to speak leave those flags up? Alright? Mr Grantham. [Mr Steven Grigson:] Er, er, John Grantham, C P R E. Er, sir, at the risk of straying slightly into into two B, you, do forgive me in advance, but you raised the specific point about size, and and erm there was er one or two statements that there isn't a a clear view on size in P P G three, I think it's important to to bear in mind the interrelationship between all P P G s and as Mr Curtis said, the research that that backs them up, and I I I point you to three quotes in the statement that C P R E have put in, erm i i i paragraph four point one seven,an and s the quote that attaches to that is taken from the research that erm er backs up draft revised P P G thirteen, transport, and erm I shall quote from that on this question of size,i it is also evident that smaller settlements, those with populations of less than fifty thousand, but particularly very small settlements are characteristically less transport emissions efficient than larger settlements, I think the the erm essence of of that particular piece of research is not as Mr Davis was implying to achieve totally self contained settlements, I don't believe such a concept exists, it's actually erm a planning land use in the long term to reduce C O two emi emissions something that is essential now to government policy, I think perhaps more instructive though is is the quote that I've in included in paragraph four point one nine and that's taken from er er this book here which I perhaps should submit the whole chapter in evidence to to the panel, I've only just included one quote, it's it's I suggest one of the more interesting reads that you may have as a result of this panel, it's by Colin Ward, and it's called New Town, Home Town, it's undertaken by er, sorry includes some of the work that's been undertaken by the University of Reading, erm and er David Lock Associates, on erm er new town research, and this this is due to be published by H M S O shortly, it's unfortunate that it wasn't available in time for this E I P, but I think erm, if you'll bear with me, I will read out the quote that I put in four point one nine, because I feel that it is useful on this question of of size, we concluded that if you are interested in environmental impact, energy conser consumption, and sustainability, new settlements have to reach a certain size to be worthwhile, it's parallel to the old arguments that used to take place around self containment in new towns, we found that new settlements of much less than five thousand houses, that's about fourteen thousand people are not really worthwhile because if they are smaller than that you are simply putting a housing estate in the countryside, a phrase that that has already been put round this morning, it appears that the best minimum for a new settlement, the best minimum, is about ten thousand houses, that's that's twenty five thousand people, which as it happens is about the size of the original garden cities. Starting from the logic of sustainability, we end up with a very similar size for a new community to the one that Howard was writing about a hundred years ago. I erm think that that is quite useful research that has been undertaken for government, and it it has been carried through, er as I'm sure everybody is aware, into the U K strategy for sustainable development, the consultation period of which is just concluding, erm I won't take you any more of the panel's time to read that quote as it's written in my in my statement. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, I I we have read it, we have read it. Er obviously, I mean the new towns movement as conceived immediately after the war was geared to meeting London housing needs, you know, we're not comparing like with like, but I think, I take the point that you are making in terms of er sustainability. [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Mr Spittle [] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Spittle. [Miss D Whittaker:] to say something. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Malcolm Spittle, County Councillor. I was very interested to read this quote from David Lock, erm of David Lock associates, and I just wonder how it squares from the fact that er Mr Lock associates submitted an objection to H two on the grounds they wanted a settlement of eighteen hundred dwellings to the North of York. Erm, it does seem to be something of a contradiction in terms there, and in fact Mr Lock isn't here today because his clients have subsequently withdrawn from the er E I P but er it would have been interesting to have asked him the question. [Mr E Barnett:] On that note, I think you should you should go and refresh yourselves. Can we, can we reconvene at two o'clock, please. [end of session]

[speaker001:] [recording starts a few seconds into afternoon session, day three of enquiry] sustainability, viability, as in a conceptual sense, and I would also like to suggest that in pushing this discussion forward we ought to bear in mind the, how shall I say it, the principles as espoused by the Department of the Environment in their planning policy guidance note three, er and in particular those spelt out in paragraph thirty three. And those if you would, for those who have not got them available, erm, we can have them copied and obtain them for you, but I suspect all of all of you sitting round the table will have P P G with you. [Miss D Whitaker:] . [Mr E Barnett:] Anyone short of a copy of P P G three, paragraph thirty three particularly? [speaker001:] It's the one prepared for the submission.... [Mr E Barnett:] For those tha who are not to familiar with, the initials P P G, it stands for planning policy guidance, and there are a whole series of these guidance notes produced by the Department of the Environment for the er advice guidance of, well not only the local planning authorities but anyone else who is interested in the development business, and they are expressions of, I suppose government policy, er and their attitudes towards various aspects, whether it's countryside, housing,trans or transport, and they do pro provide a useful backcloth, in fact an extremely valuable backcloth to the way in which er this matter should be considered, erm I know from the submission which North Yorkshire County Council have used they would say that the fact they haven't had regard to all this er, but I would like to carry on the discussion against that background, and could you direct your thinking at this stage about the need for a new settlement in the light of the principles spelt out in P P G three and particularly paragraph thirty three. Now then, can we proceed to... Mr Brighton. Sorry, Mr Donson first? [Mr Roy Donson:] Yes, thank you. Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. I think I'd like to start by making a few general points, er and then er it will be a matter for for others to to be somewhat more specific, I I I think I can say that the issue of a new settlement of a new settlement in Greater York is is a fairly unique situation, because we have agreement between the development industry and the County Council, and that's something of a rarity, but also we have mild support from the Department of the Environment, and as Mr Davis has already said, that is backed by public support. I think it should be remembered that that public support actually was against a requirement of one thousand nine hundred dwellings, which is not quite the proposal being put forward by the County at the moment, but it is clear that there seems to me n not to be any public or great strength of public objection to the sort of proposals that are now before you in this enquiry, and it also seems to me that the reasons behind erm that that public support are essentially because it meets the first requirement of paragraph P P G thirty three, that the alternative expansion of existing towns or villages will represent a less satisfactory method of providing land for new housing that is needed, I think that is the essence of the public support, and so first of I think you can say that that's that means that first criteria, and certainly it seems to meet the second automatically because it an expression of public preference. From the Federation's point of view, er I have substantially difficult, a difficulty, in guiding you as to where the new settlement ought to be, because in effect I would be choosing between members, and that is a certain route to my unemployment, if I were to do that, and I don't wish to be unemployed. Therefore I am not able to suggest to you, and haven't been able to in my evidence which district even a new settlement er ought to go in, but I have to say that if it were part of your deliberations that you should choose a particular district, er then it is not part of my submission that you should not choose a particular district, but my bottom line is that the policy wording should at least ensure that there is commitment to a new settlement and it is inescapable on behalf of the district planning authorities, the last thing that we would want is the possibility of going round the districts, and the last one to produce a district wide plan is the one that has to get the new settlement, that seems to be a gen, fairly unsatisfactory way of proceeding, and each one should have to consider that as part of their certification process. If I can then turn to er some of the issues that were w w w were were raised this morning, York and others, and other other others in their submission laid great store on P P G thirteen. Can I remind you that it is a draft, and it is a consultation draft, it is not Government policy. And ministerial statements have actually indicated that it's not likely to appear, as a final version, until next year at the earliest, and so it would seem to me that there's a great deal of thought to be gone into the precise wording of that P P G yet, and to rely on quotes from it wou is, is, is at best er, misleading, and I think we ought to bear in mind something that Mr Curtis mentioned this morning, that in fact the change that happened between draft P P G three and the final version, it is quite possible that the final version of P P G thirteen could be substantially different from the [Miss D Whitaker:] Can I, can I interrupt at that stage [Mr Roy Donson:] . [Miss D Whitaker:] and say, do you find nothing of P P G draft revision in P P G twelve? [Mr Roy Donson:] Yes I do find that there's a general thread,an an an and and one would expect that, what I'm what I'm guarding against is taking too much notice of precise quotes from from from P P G thirteen. I think also we ought to be guarded about too much detailed discussion of travel distances, we are talking here at most of travel distances of between six and ten miles, in keeping with the policy, erm it seems to me that erm if we we spend too much time on trying to determine whether six or ten miles distant, is is there any great significance in terms of the global environment it would be at least an unproved case, one way or the other, but also there seems to me to be a clear conflict in those who are trying to say that the new settlement proposal falls because not large enough of a site is being proposed, one way and another. It would seem to me that if you've got to prove a case that there that it is the place of last resort, and that place of last resort has got to be at least five thousand dwellings, you are in a place where there is absolute massive growth of demand, and improbably no one has been able to meet a five year supply of housing land, if you are to meet it in the term, if y if those are the criteria to meeting the terms of th of this sort of plan, and in fact what I would submit is that a new settlement solution is very much a part and parcel of a long term solution, and that's where essentially the County strategy is quite right in proposing a new settlement in the context of the greenbelt, because also greenbelt is a long term solution. We've got to look at it in those terms, and so it is not necessary in my submission for anyone to prove at the moment there is at least five thousand dwellings short, erm that that is something which ought to be considered over a much longer time period. I think that what we have to decide today, or one of the things that needs to be decided is, is the new settlement in the longer term a sensible answer given that all the all the various considerations, and that erm arguing about residual numbers, here or there has to be taken in the much longer context, I think that's what all I would like the to say at the moment on on new settlement erm because of the situation I am in of not being able to er say too much in detail about it, I shan't be making very many contributions to to this particular debate. [Miss D Whitaker:] Can I come back Mr Donson, or will that, and I take it, alright, I understand the point you are making about the long term solution and size, but if the panel were to be persuaded that to be a viable solution the settlement had, in the end, and I'm not going to define where the end is, almost certainly beyond two thousand and six, that the settlement would need to be of the order of five thousand dwellings. Do you consider it important that we take that into account now, not least because of the, although it's well beyond the plan in its entirety, where the new settlement might go, and its its acceptability in environmental terms, depends in part on how big it is, there may be some places which could easily take fifteen hundred dwellings, but could not take five thousand? [Mr Roy Donson:] That seems to me to be a consideration which may be able to address in general terms by yourselves, but depends very much on the individual proposals, and and erm is is a matter of detail of the individual proposals, I'm sure that you don't want presented here the the fine detail of of individual proposals [Miss D Whitaker:] Indeed not. [Mr Roy Donson:] but it, but it maybe, it it would seem to me if that is a consideration of yours, that might be something that you reflect upon in y in your report, but it is it is not a necessary er requirement that, er that be part and parcel of this particular E I P. [Miss D Whitaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Brighton. [Mr Paul Brighton:] [cough] Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. Can I say first of all that er I support the general approach which has been adopted by Yorkshire County Council and the the other local authorities in the Greater York area, on the way in which they've formulated their proposals for the York greenbelt after a fairly long erm and exhausting process, the question to which I want to address my comments first of all is whether the new settlement is an appropriate and justified planning response, and what I would like to do if I may is look at some of the reasons that have been raised erm in objection to the new settlement as a strategy, erm these issues have been raised by Hambledon District, York City Council, the C P R E, Montague Evans, in their written submissions to the examination of the. First of all, erm, if we c could, erm, the question of need. The first element of need is erm the various estimates of commitments of potential land, erm and the argument is, erm, that the additional requirement can actually be met within the inner area, now we covered that at some length this morning, and refer to what we've had said on that in a bit, I don't propose to repeat it. Likewise, part of the argument also revolves around possibility that in additional land within the inner greenbelt boundary, and again you've heard our argument on that this morning, and I don't propose to to repeat that. A new point that I would make, however, in many of those arguments which relate to the impossible, or alleged availability of additional windfall sites, and land on the inner greenbelt boundary, but I think the analysis which is er carried out is a simplistic one, because it solely relates to residential land requirements, there is no erm attempt to erm bring into the equation whether there is land available for the related employment necessary for that additional residential development, whether there is land available for schools, shops, and Mr Davis's recreation uses, and so on, and all those will very considerably increase the amount of land required to be released to support residential development, wherever it is located, and that is something which I believe has not been properly taken into account. The second major issue which I believe had been used against the new settlement as a an appropriate Greater York area, is that it's inconsistent with erm current recent central government planning advice, and basically the argument is that the proposals for the new settlement are contrary to er planning policy guidance notes three and twelve, and draft er P P G thirteen, if I can deal with P P G thirteen first of all, and the observation of Mr Curtis that the new settlement is a last resort, erm now I could find no reference to that at all erm in P P G three, or even a sentiment that at planning policy er that a new settlement should be regarded erm as a policy of last resort. My believe is what P P G is inviting local authorities to do is be cautious in proposing them, they should not be regarded as a first option, or an easy option, they should be cautious in proposing them. Special circumstances are required to justify the er proposing the new settlement through the local plan structure planning process, and I believe that is exactly what has occurred over the last five years, and if I could just quickly run through paragraph thirty three of P P G three, and the your invitation for us to comment on the criteria set out there, first of all the first element, the ex the alternative must be erm seen to be a less satisfactory method of providing land for the new housing that is needed, that is the essence of what has occurred in the process which the County Council has undertaken over the last couple of years, all of the policy options available have been examined in great detail, have been subject to public consultation, public participation,d I believe clear view was that there were erm constraints operating on York which meant that not all of that additional development accommodated in the adjacent to the existing er York city villages surrounding York. The second requirement is that it should be a clear expression of local preference afforded by the local planning authorities, my I think the fact that it has been promoted by the Greater York authorities, albeit some of them have erm taken a slightly different view of late, I think that is clear expression that the local, that the new settlement proposal does have a substantial local support. The third element and the fourth element erm I I think relate more to location questions to do with the new settlement, and I propose to deal with those under the legal heading of two C, the next item is that the proposal can be considered alongside policies of restraint, and that is exactly how the proposal for the new settlement has emerged, it is a response to the er proposed greenbelt around York city, and obviously we can put in the greenbelt that there is severe erm policies of restraint operating at er on on the terms of new development. Finally, the last consideration, again I believe that to be a location question which I propose to deal with under the heading two C. So the new settlement is one element of a comprehensive approach to development employments in Greater York. I would make the point that it has taken thirty five years for us to reach this point where we have comprehensive strategy for York, we have battled with er various greenbelt boundaries in the past, I think there has never been erm a total review development plan requirements for the Greater York area, no more of its implications on possible greenbelt boundaries, we now have that and the greenbelt local plan, Southern Ryedale local plans are being progressed on the basis of that strategy, and there are other plans in the pipeline. And I think the special character and position of the York as one of this country's most important historic, historic towns fully justifies the exceptional step of new settlement. The second planning policy guidance note which erm the new settlement tracked as was the policy guidance note number twelve, and I wonder if I can grapple for a moment with the S word, sustainable. It's a word which everyone is using and it's almost like confetti. I I'm not sure that we've had a very helpful description of what sustainable means, erm I suspect people use it in different ways and ther there is no er er common usage established of what it means here, there is no dictionary definition. I've scoured the the technical professional press to find out if there is some general statement which sums up what sustainability means, and the one which I've seen most commonly referred to, I think, and the government has used it in this way, is a requirement to ensure the needs of the present generation are met in a way which does not prejudice future generations, now I do not believe that a properly conceived and located new settlement is any less sustainable in the long term that other forms of urban growth, and by properly conceived I've got to say I believe that to mean properly balanced er form of development for the new settlement, and I think I would say that new settlements have usually been proposed because continued infilling, like the the normal forms of accommodating further development requirements, infill, and peripheral development, have been determined in York context not to be sustainable, the sorts of issues which arise as a result erm of additional development in or on the edge of York and the surrounding villages, problems of additional congestion, loss of green space in towns, loss of employment opportunities and so on. And finally I can just look at erm draft planning policy guidance thirteen, it is very easy to lift one or two sentences out of either the draft planning policy note, or indeed the Ecotech report which underpins it, erm, I think if a full reading is made of that, what comes across strongly in the research is that there is a very complex relationship between urban forms and transport patterns, and indeed erm I think the advice in P P G, er draft P P G thirteen is prefaced with a note that erm, transport issues are, will be erm, there are very few general principles, if any, and local er considerations will influence the er the importance of this iss issue very considerably, what I think draft P P G thirteen does invite us to do is to more overtly look the transportation implications of alternative settlement patterns, and that's all. And at the end of the day transport matters are only one consideration which need to be taken into account in considering alternative er locations, and it may not be the most important. And finally, if we can look at erm, I think the C P R E have raised this, that erm the new settlement i er would would be inconsistent with erm regional sub-regional planning strategy. First of all if one looks at the draft advice on the erm regional plan guidance prepared by the Yorkshire and Humberside local planning authorities, they in fact advocate new settlement as an appropriate circumstances, there is not a policy which says that they are not appropriate or are inconsistent with other policy objectives, and I note in that respect that the D O E as Mr Donson said, are mildly supportive of the new settlement in the Greater York area. There is some comment has been made that a new settlement to the South or the South West of York would in some way undermine the urban regeneration erm of Leeds City Council, now I find this a surprising comment given that though people who are making that comment are also at the same time advocating much increased development allocations to, for example, Harrogate district, the main centre for which is erm, nearer than most conceivable new settlement locations to the South and South West of York. In addition I think there's some inconsistency, because within Selby district, for example, a lot of development which has been advocated in the past and is likely to be allocated in the future is in places like Selby or Sherburn in Elmet, which again are much nearer to Leeds erm than potential new settlement sites to the South and South, South West of York, and yet objection has been raised to er that particular erm element in the planning strategy for Selby, and I I can't see the reason why a new settlement should be treated in any different way to any other form of development in that sense. Now you've also invited comments on er the question of whether one settlement is appropriate, and the size of the settlement do you want, would you like to take my comment [Mr E Barnett:] Well I was trying to stick with the size as an expression of whether the concept is one that should be pursued, and whether that influences the pursuing of the concept, can we can we leave the, the number of settlements till, till later on? Right. [Mr Paul Brighton:] I think erm there is some dispute as to erm what size the new settlement must be to become what's termed an integrated and balanced community, and given the importance of this issue, and it has been with us for the last three years, ever since the new settlement was first proposed, erm I find it very surprising that North Yorkshire County Council have not undertaken any work of their own on this subject area, and have relied instead on a a residual approach to to find the new settlement size, and I must say I find that very unsatisfactory, what North Yorkshire County Council are inviting you, erm, to accept is whatever size the residual for Greater York is, you know, has been in the past I should say, proposals from the public, from the private sector have come forward,an and the County Council have used those proposals as confirmation that the new settlement of that particular size was viable, it's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, now I think that's unacceptable, what they haven't done is the second part of the technical exercise, which is to to look at the thresholds of the various services and facilities required in the new settlement. Now I am able to say that Barton Willmore has done this work, and it has submitted as part of our submission to the E I P, and in summary what I would say is that I believe that that work demonstrates that the new settlement has to be in the order of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, to begin to achieve the environmental objectives set for the new settlement, and also social objectives which would also be important to the residents of that new settlement. Now North Yorkshire County Council er I think in their statement look to erm to existing market towns to provide what little evidence they can up to justify fourteen hundred dwellings, er I think that's again a simplistic approach because by definition the market now can seal them up wider catchment area, many of them are some distance from York, and the settlements concerned provide a service base for a number of surrounding villages, and therefore the actual specialities and services found within that particular settlement are greater than one would achieve if it did not have a large catchment area. But finally, I would like to make one comment about the er the residual approach used to define the new settlement size. I think there is a tendency erm for local authority planners to to have horizons set by the end date of the current plan period, and work, try and work in that, sort of around the real world I think, where nothing happens, or nothing is conceivable, beyond that time period, erm, this particular approach, er does not work in the case of new settlements, there is no need when having established your design size for a new settlement that it necessarily all has to be built within current plan period, and I think this sort of approach is recognized in Cambridgeshire where, in case of the A forty five new settlement, a view was taken at an early stage that a new settlement of three thousand dwellings was needed to meet long term development needs in Cambridgeshire, an area where the planning issues and problems where very similar to those of York, and the approved structure plan in policy proposed that new settlement to be designated as three thousand, of which two thousand portion would be built within the current plan period, so it seems to me that the the question of size need not be an impediment to erm designation of a new settlement if the existing requirement and need are adjudged not to require the sort of new settlement size that we are creating. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Mr Brighton, erm before I turn to another speaker, your comment about the location of a new settlement, and the likely effect it would have on the West Yorkshire conurbation, er I presume from what you've said is that effectively the new settlement, if you have one, its location should be such as to serve the needs of York and Greater York, and therefore the further it is away from the West Yorkshire conurbation, or the West side of North Yorkshire, the more likely it is to fulfil that function. [Mr Paul Brighton:] I think that the new settlement erm should be as close to York erm city as can be achieved, the erm question of the detailed location er I think is a matter for erm discussion on the basis of the other planning policy guidance erm criteria which I haven't explored terms of the locational criteria, what I was seeking to do in my comments was erm to counter a point which has been made er by the C P R E which refers to new settlements as an engine of growth, now that's not the purpose of this new settlement, it is a response to the needs of meeting Greater York, and I don't see any reason why that's less likely to be achieved if it's South South West of York, than anywhere else around the circumference of York. [Miss D Whitaker:] Given that planning cannot dictate that people live near to where they work, I'm not sure I've yet grasped why it is that the need to Greater York need to be met near to York,the these needs to rise from a complex pattern of people moving in and people moving out, individual decisions as to where people live in relation to where they work, what's the magic of having the new settlement near to York? And perhaps this is this goes to a wider point of what's the magic of the definition of Greater York area? That not just a question to yourself Mr Brighton, others may wish to comment later. [Mr Paul Brighton:] May I answer first? Paul Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore. I think it is erm Greater York that has been seen as an area with special problems because of its er historic character, erm which we spent many hours debating at the York greenbelt local plan inquiry, and I think most participants there accepted that the er what was being protected was not just the historic core, but also the setting of York and its surrounding ring of villages, and the way which it is proposed to protect that setting and character is by a greenbelt, now it follows that if you are imposing extremely severe restrictions on new development in an area around a settlement, then you have to meet the legitimate development needs for that settlement in another location, the further away that new settlement or other policy response is located it seems to me the less likely it is to meet the er needs of that settlement, and that will give rise to erm, you know, additional pressures on the settlement you are proposing to protect and maybe those pressures could not be resisted, and I think that's why there is this requirement that erm the development which might otherwise be built on the edge of York, but which is not proposed to be so built because of the greenbelt needs to be located close, as close to York as is consistent with the original environmental objectives greenbelt objectives for the greenbelt. [Miss D Whitaker:] Can I carry on throwing pebbles into the pool? Thank you. [tape change] Planning theory about the right size for towns is not good. Isn't there an argument which says if you're trying to protect York and its setting that the further you actually move the development away from it the greater the protection you afford it? [Mr Paul Brighton:] I think erm there is a erm a size issue that enters into that particular consideration, erm clearly erm if you build a small new settlement very close to an existing large settlement, then the prospects for that being reasonably self contained are much reduced to that of a larger new settlement in the same location, and I would agree that the further in in general the further you move away from an existing centre then the likelihood is that that settlement will become more self contained. [Mr E Barnett:] Can we,ca [Mr Paul Brighton:] But, sorry. [Mr E Barnett:] Go on. [Mr Paul Brighton:] There is an additional aspect that erm we we must look also, I think, at the viability of the services and facilities, er, within the new settlement, if the new settlement is, for the sake of argument five hundred houses then my submission is that that really offers no long term viability for any facility or service, erm, clearly you might get a primary school if the new settlement size was of the order of eight hundred to a thousand dwellings, but you would not get any sizable retail element, and so however far that settlement was located from the main centre they would still become dependant on that centre, and that's why I think it's important to recognize that if you are to achieve the erm if you like the balance of requirements, of achieving erm a reasonable degree of self containment within the new settlement, but also meet the needs of York, it has to be a reasonable size, but located as close to York as possible... [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] [] [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr Brighton, I'll leave my point until later. Mr Timothy, and then Mr Brook. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Paragraph thirty three [Mr E Barnett:] Can you introduce yourself Mr Timothy, please? [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] This is for the sake of record, the record. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Right, this is Chr, Christopher Timothy from Wood Frampton. Starting off with paragraph thirty three of P P G three, [whispering] [], erm you'll see in my statement that I've actually in seeking to address point A dealt with each of the conditions that P P G three er refers to, for which a new settlement should be contemplated, and you will see that I've reached a conclusion that having regarded the unique circumstances of York, the Greater York new settlement does represent an appropriate and justified policy response, you'll se also see my statement, I've taken some comfort from the fact that the good practice guide that has been published by the department of the environment, has endorsed the approach that North Yorkshire County Council has taken towards the special circumstances of the Greater York area. I don't know if this means that the North Yorkshire structure plan now has the equivalent of an Egon Ronay recommendation. The the particular point that that I wish to pick up on though was from M Mr Curtis and his reference to erm the draft P P G thirteen, and whilst I'd say that the point of the H B F that it's only a draft publication at this stage, there's in my view been too mu much over reliance on the reference in there to self containment, you see if we look at that particular paragraph, two point one two, it actually says avoid the development of small new settlements which are not to, sorry, I'll start that again, avoid the development of small new settlements which are not be likely to be well served by public transport, or which will not be largely self contained. It's not an and situation, it's an ei it's an either or situation. So by implication if you c if the new settlement is capable of being well served by public transports, then that is se a a satisfactory situation. I take in my opinion the size, scale of settlement that is being pursued by erm North Yorkshire is of sufficient size, erm my experience erm are twelve fifty to fifteen hundred new settlement is sort of of a size that can sustain a reasonable balance of community facilities, I think in looking at the new village and in the context of P P G thirteen its highway implications, we see from table one of er Mr Curtis's supplementary statement that public transport, I E bus and train, in terms of journeys to work to the Greater York area amounts to about eight percent of all journeys made, now I think if we were to follow Mr Curtis's view through and put all development on the periphery of York, if we put two hundred to the North, two hundred to the East, two hundred to the South and so on and so forth, the contribution that those, that new housing can make to improving the public transport system, will be very small, if you concentrate your developments in a new settlement, or or maybe two new settlements which is another point, erm you have a better opportunity to provide a public transport system which would not only serve that new village, but also settlements in the surroundings, and I think you will find that the percentage of people in the new village who are reliant on public transport as a means of getting to work is greater that what you find in the Greater York area at the present time. [Mr E Barnett:] Aha. Any other comment? [Mr Christopher Timothy:] The only other comment I had in terms of the scale of settlement, which I think is just touching upon the next point, is that, I mean depending on the conclusions you reach as to the the amount of housing to be provided for in a new settlement, I take the point that Mr Brighton made that you've got to have a longer term perspective I think that he f that in the ten year period ninety six to two thousand and six that the new settlements to be brought forward during, erm I think it's really unrealistic to achieve more than twelve fifty, fourteen hundred houses in that period, if you say reach a conclusion there should be two thousand houses in that period in a new settlement, there might be some benefit in having two settlements, each of a capacity of say twelve fifty,f for erm twelve fifty to fifteen hundred that can have capacity for the next plan period, and in other words to assist in meeting the constraints that exist on York that are likely to exist into the future. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. Thank you. Mr Brook, and then Mr Sexton. [Mr Clive Brook:] Thank you sir. Clive Brook, Clive Brook associates. I think it would be appropriate to very briefly sir preface erm not by name obviously, who I represent, the interests I represent, because otherwise my comments may be misconstrued erm by certain parties who know me well, I represent certain peripheral land owner and developer interests around York, I also represent a developer who is proposing a n new village circa fifteen hundred dwellings in the Leeds metropolitan district er to the East of Wetherby, that is relevant when I come to the location and a migration aspects, er I would preface the rest of my comments by saying I consider it is vitally important, sir, that this enquiry takes a sub-regional view, this is why my colleague from Leeds City Council I'm sure's been invited, it's why the Department of the Environment Regional Office are here, very important indeed. In terms of Greater York and its th the York greenbelt I think it's true to say that er some time ago when David Kaiserman of Manchester did research on greenbelts he came to the view, or he came up with the conclusions from his questionnaires that he sent round, and that study was done, must be ten, fifteen years ago or more, that greenbelts should endure unchanged for at least twenty years, and probably in excess of thirty, and those were the responses of county planning and other major planning authorities at that time, that view if anything has hardened, the public view would be way beyond thirty years. For a city the nature of York it is vital, in my view, that public confidence in the greenbelt it's got to endure for beyond thirty years, that is the case I would share the views to some extent of the York City in that, and which I I certainly read into ma'am, your, two of your questions, what happens beyond two thousand and six? The responses I heard to that question were most unsatisfactory, the County Council's response was, ah, well we'll have to get together again with the group of authorities, now if you look back over how long it has taken to produce this particular strategy that's exceedingly worrying, that means they'll have to get together again, even if it takes half the time or a third of the time, they'll have to get together again towards nineteen ninety seven ninety eight to be considering the strategy post two thousand and six. I put it to you that this proposal has to be considered, any new settlement proposal has to be considered within the light of a post two thousand and six strategy, in that light this new settlement proposal will not, at around fourteen hundred, satisfy the situation. If you then say, ah well it might expand to double that number or to five thousand, as was postulated, that then begs an even larger question, because in my submission you would then go back and revisit the alternatives of, for example, should you expand Tadcaster, which has not the best facilities in its town centre, er to quote but one example of er viability and sustainability of towns. You would look at Tadcaster versus a settlement of four five thousand in the Greater York area. It is a so it's a complex set of interrelationships we're looking at er on a sub-regional basis, I do believe that there is capacity, some capacity around the inner area of York, and to what extent the greenbelt enquiry er inspector will retain what I and others and certainly York City Council would believe is sufficient capacity remains to be seen, and though similar pleas were made at that enquiry I think they have to be restated here. So my answer to the question A is, I am not against a new settlement, of the right scale in the right location, but it is not a panacea, it is not an answer to all the questions, now it's being offered in terms of a balanced strategy, I say that balanced strategy as put forward does not work, certainly beyond two thousand and six, and may grind to a halt well before two thousand and six if rates of development proceed er as they have done in certain years in the past, so it's very important to look at that, can we just revisit the public acceptance of the new settlement, of course the public have accepted it and welcomed it, it has certain attractions, I support those attractions, however it's easy for the public to accept that when measured against certain sites specific proposals that were put to them when they did not know where the new settlement would be, and still do not know, when new settlement locations are put forward it will be quite a different scenario. The question of er P P G thirteen and transportation I think is vitally important, York will come into the position that Chester er where I was just at a transportation enquiry recently, it's a very similar sort of city, it's not quite the same as Cambridge, where Cambridge is leaping ahead on quite, some would say draconian transportation measures, York in the forceable future will have to look at specialist transportation measures, that's important in terms of the planning policy guidance that is out, it's also in the white paper, it may be in draft P P G thirteen, it's also in I think it's P P G twenty two, renewable energy, that we should now be looking at developments which is closer to work, that links then to the question of sustainability and viability of a new settlement, I am not aware, and and I put it guardedly in those terms, of any significant employment existing or proposed in any of the new settlement proposals. I believe it is very important to judge a new settlement in terms of viability and sustainability on the availability of some significant element of jobs, of course it will never be self contained, erm but that is a very important factor, I don't see that in the list of criteria. So I'm not opposed to a new settlement, but let's have a very sensible approach to the question of sustainability and viability, journeys to work, er okay six to ten miles is not too much, but we can do better than that. I think I'll reserve my other comments, sir, when we get on to some of the later points. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Mr Sexton. [Mr Anthony (tony) Sexton:] Tony Sexton, Connell. Er my start point is P P G twelve, which in er paragraph six point four sets out the reconciliation of the er development, er economic, social, and environmental er priorities in preceding two strategies for a structure plan. These development strategies should seek to preserve an acceptable balance of the various priorities, now in my position statement I set out the role and general advantages of new settlements as part of a development strategy in satisfying housing and employment needs of an area. In particular I think that the new settlement strategy proposed in the structure plan is of particular relevance er to the needs of Greater York, focused as it is on the historic city. Given the lack of a capacity within the city and in the settlements surrounding to absorb significant elements of major development it seems to me that it is inevitable that green fields er will have to be taken to satisfy the future development needs. The choice therefore arises between peripheral development of the urban area and the villages surrounding or alternatively the new settlement itself, the effect of peripheral development on the city has already been discussed, and I support those who consider that it would be harmful to the character and indeed to the setting of York. Equally to, I consider that significant peripheral development of the villages would be harmful to their character as well. It therefore follows that in my view, that it is consonant with the requirements of P P G three, particularly paragraph thirty three, that a new settlement should be part of the housing and employment strategy of the Greater York area, that it does not conflict, in my view, with the consultation draft of P P G thirteen which really embodies much of what has already been said in P P G three and twelve with regard to travel issues. Dealing with one or two specific points that have been raised, particularly with regard to size, in my view the balanced community which can be envisaged within a new settlement will provide for housing, employment, community services, and recreational opportunities, it will not simply be a peripheral housing estate transferred to the open countryside, in my submission I have already stated that I do believe a new settlement of up to fourteen hundred dwellings should indeed be viable, and commercially attractive to the development industry. I think a settlement of this size would be compatible with the general pattern of village development that exists in the York area, if a new settlement were significantly larger than this pattern I think there would be a high degree of risk of coalescence with the existing er communities, and would certainly threaten their identity. The other point I would make is the further that the new settlement is from York itself, then the greater would be the dependency upon the motor car, this has been born out by the paper that has been submitted by York City Council in table one where one can see that within the urban area within the O R R the travel to work by car is forty six point four percent, travel to work in the Greater York area at the moment is sixty seven point five percent, further than that I do believe it would be even greater. As there is indeed a need to reduce car dependency it therefore follows that the nearer to York that the new settlement is then the greater the benefits could result, equally to, the further that the new settlement is from York then I think the less it will have an effect in reducing the pressures for development upon York. I think those pressures will still be there and that another solution will have to be found, albeit in the middle term to reduce the further demands, continuing demands for peripheral expansion of the city. Thank you, Sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Jewitt. Sorry. [Miss D Whitaker:] Sorry. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry. [Miss D Whitaker:] A couple of questions if I may please Mr Sexton. First of all you started off with a reference to P P G twelve, and I fear my pen wasn't fast enough to note down the paragraph number, perhaps you could remind me? [Mr Anthony (tony) Sexton:] Er, certainly, Senior Inspector, erm paragraphs six point four, and continuing into six point five. [Miss D Whitaker:] Thank you. Second point, erm, you argue that a settlement of more than, say, fifteen hundred dwellings would increase the risk of coalescence with existing settlements, but surely that depends on where it is, doesn't it? [Mr Anthony (tony) Sexton:] Yes, I readily accept that, er my general proposition is in er connection with the settlement pattern of York, and it is necessary clearly to have er careful regard to that existing settlement pattern, erm if I may refer to the helpful plan that has in fact been produced, I believe by the County Council, it is in fact an appendix to B two zero zero four, er this plan does actually indicate the general extent of the settlements outside the outer ring road of York. Clearly the settlement pattern at the moment does vary, many of the settlements are linear in form, many others are nucleate. But they are fairly thickly spread, fairly closely to each other, it is my view that, quite frankly, the existing settlements should be protected to the extent of no new settlement being within w one mile of the vi existing village centre. If one took that as a parameter, and applied that to the existing settlement pattern, there is indeed a high degree of risk of coalescence if in fact a new settlement were of a significant significantly larger than fourteen hundred dwellings. [Miss D Whitaker:] I understand, thank you. [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Michael Jewitt. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. I think at the outset I need to erm clarify Hambledon's position, erm Hambledon's position is that it objects erm to the new settlement on the basis that it's not needed and cannot be justified, and I wouldn't wish erm for the er Council's position to be interpreted as anything less than that. Turning to erm the reasons erm for the Council's erm objection with particular reference to er paragraph erm thirty three of P P G three, erm I think it's first of all, and it should be abundantly obvious to all present now that since the County Council emba and the Greater York authorities, embarked upon this strategy government guidance has changed, we believe erm government guidance now casts serious doubts erm on the erm new settlement strategy for Greater York. It's certainly true that government guidance is far more guarded erm in its support for new settlements erm the guidance has has of course been touched on but I would adem emphasize the dates of this guidance, er P P G three, housing, March nineteen ninety two, P P G twelve, development plans and regional planning guidance, February nineteen ninety two, and draft P P G thirteen, May nineteen ninety three, just looking briefly at P P G three, erm P P G, and I think it's fair to say that P P G three takes up far less welcoming stance than did the previous erm P P G erm it recognizes that new settlements are controversial, and that the scope is likely to be limited. Hambledon District Council believes that insufficient regard has been payed erm to to these issues erm in the structure plan alteration, in paragraph thirty three the P P G sets down a list of criteria erm to which local authorities er should refer erm, I'll erm refer specifically to er to three of them and I and and comeback to them as I go through erm erm what I want to say, erm the first one I draw that I would draw the panel's attention to is erm that the alternative of the expansion of existing towns or villages should represent a less satisfactory method at providing the land for housing that is needed, and it's a rhetorical question really here, erm and w we would ask that erm if there hasn't been a comparative appraisal erm of the two options, and how could there be, there's no erm district or areas been identified, how can we be certain that one option is better than another under the terms of that er criterion, erm the oth second point we would draw the panel's attention is that the proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, and again I would emphasize there that Hambledon District Council objects, and the third one is the option of a new settlement in preference to the alternative would result in positive environmental improvements, and I'll return to that erm briefly in relation to er to Hambledon, P P G twelve erm paragraph six one four that's been referred to it, includes a check list of issues against which areas in for new development in general er need to be er considered, with particular reference for reducing the need for travel, erm amongst these issues that the P P G asked the Councils to take into account erm are that development should make full and effective use of land within existing urban areas, that developments er should consider development patterns that are closely related to public transport net networks, and in relation to housing, and that housing is located in such a way as to minimize car use for journeys to work, school, and other local facilities, P P G thirteen, and I would expect erm I would agree with what Mr Donson has said here, is that it it's draft and obviously one has to put the appropriate weight on it, but erm this reinforces and expands upon erm established government policy, reducing the need for travel, erm I don't think it's necessary for me to go into er the quotes in detail, I think that those have been er been touched on, erm, however, I would say erm that Hambledon District Council believes that the advice in draft P P G thirteen is much less supportive of new settlements, it suggests that greater weight must be given to the environmental implications of the additional traffic generated by new settlements erm this is, erm we believe, particularly important in view of the fact that a new settlement for York is unlikely to be self contained, and by its nature many of the residents will still look to York for essential services, social links, and employment, turning to the residual requirement, erm we have a concern over this, erm clearly a new settlement is intended to mop up any residual requirement which the er policy sets at fourteen hundred dwellings, we've heard evidence from York today that er the city can accommodate erm more erm houses than was originally envisaged, which brings the residual requirement to erm about the minimum size specified by the County Council as being erm about the right level erm to make a s a new settlement self supporting, however, we would point out that there is still the possibility of erm further peripheral development around York, the greenbelt local plan and Southern Ryedale local plan er have not yet been statutory adopted, the inspector hasn't reported on those, we don't know what he's going to say about sites er which were at issue, or on the need for flexibility between the inner erm boundary of the greenbelt and the city, irrespective of course of what the inspector says, erm being not yet statutory adopted the County and Ryedale will still have the opportunity to consider, reconsider there policies there, but putting that aside for the present, erm even if it is established that er the requirement for nine thousand seven hundred houses erm can't a occupied by er can be accommodated by er peripheral development, erm this doesn't it doesn't necessarily follow that the answer has to be a new settlement, we heard yesterday in erm great detail that erm environmental considerations have justified a reduction in the rate of development in other districts, erm in the county, I would point out that a relatively modest reduction erm in the inward migration to Ryedale, Selby, and York, could mop up the residual requirement, if one looks at erm the reasons for the greenbelt it is perhaps surprising that given the importance attached to maintaining its historic form and character that this is not an issue erm that's been considered. Looking specifically at our concerns with regard to erm Hambledon, erm in Hambledon the area search would erm extend to about eighty two kilometres, that's square kilometres, erm and contain six, this contains six villages, er with populations ranging from a hundred and fourteen to nine hundred and seventy one, erm proposed new settlement of fourteen hundred hou erm dwellings, er would be four times erm greater than the largest settlement in this area, Easingwold is the nearest small town, that's about the equivalent erm equivalent size in terms of number of dwellings, erm we believe that it would er dominate the existing settlement pattern in the area, and would introduce erm a dislocation erm into er a settlement pattern. And we think that it would be an excessive size er for that particular locality, and it wouldn't really fit in erm with er the path of the settlement pattern. We also have concerns about how it could erm fit in to er the countryside erm of the area er with particular reference to erm paragraph thirty three of P P G three which states that erm the net effect of any new settlement will be to enhance the environmental cause only modest environmental impact, the area in Hambledon, as Mr Wincup outlined yesterday erm is occupied essentially by the vale of York, it's an essentially flat and rolling landscape, er the intensification of agriculture's produced a very open landscape erm in that area erm there are few erm landscape elements to reduce into visibility, erm there are no significant areas of derelict land which could be, which would be reclaimed or enhanced erm by a new settlement, erm and the Council believes that it would be very difficult to assimilate a new settlement into this landscape, and it would be er visible over extensive areas, to touch on erm the point raised by erm the panel about self sufficiency and self containment erm I think it's recognized in the explanatory memorandum, erm to policy H two that a new settlement will need to maintain social and economic links with a city, erm perhaps from some, this statement is explicit that erm York will continue to exert considerable influence in terms of employment, social, and community links, erm and it's unlikely that facilities which have provided a new settlement will divert much, if an, if er any, erm of this er demand for travel. We think that the er residents of a new settlement will still look to York as the natural centre for employment, for er provision of most employment, retailing and entertainment, and if you compare it with something like er Easingwold, erm which is of a similar size, erm this has achieved a degree a degree of self containment and balance, but this has occurred through erm a long period of development and a gradual growth of erm social linkages and economic linkages, however, even with such erm a gradual growth erm it's not got a high degree of self containment, erm recent developments in er transport and changes in lifestyle have reduced this even further, and it's difficult to believe that er a proposal, such as a new settlement er which is explicitly intended to cater for the development needs of York, located only ten miles from York can achieve the same level of self containment. That's all I have to say. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Er y your use of the phrase self containment leads me to ask the question, which is that, well in my book it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as an integrated and balanced community, but I'll put Mr Davis on notice to define what is meant by those adjectives. Er, Mr Girt, can we have erm a Leeds view? [Mr Girt:] Yes, I'd like to come back er to Mr Brighton on the question of regeneration in West Yorkshire, and er settlement South West of York, some people here today would not have heard the views of Leeds and Bradford on the H one discussions yet, about er why we are objecting to the restraints in three North Yorkshire districts, Harrogate, Craven, and er to less extent perhaps, Hambledon, on migration levels, erm we we argued there [speaker001:] [crackling microphone] Sorry. [Mr Girt:] we argued there that erm scale of migration was not necessary to to be contained within Leeds and Bradford, to promote regeneration because we're s we're now, we have now exhausted all our brown field sites to the extent that we've had to take land out of our greenbelt, but there we were looking at something in the order of four thousand dwellings in three dris districts, spread over fifteen years, and we might reasonably assume that they'd come forward in a dispersed manner on a site by site basis er and be relatively small scale, certainly we would be looking at the local plans which flow from this alteration to make sure that will be the case, now a new settlement's a completely different animal, you would have to come forward quickly otherwise it would not be regarded as a success, it would it would need wide publicity, perhaps across the whole region, maybe even beyond, it would be a a major attraction to anybody thinking of moving house er from Leeds to a a location which would be accessible to them to retain their employment in Leeds, so I think we were talking about two different things entirely, more than that Mr Brighton's su suggested that fifteen hundred would not be an adequate scale, it would have to be, I think two thousand five hundred was his figure, er Mr Timothy's suggested th the same sort of thinking, and Mr Brook to, that the the settlement would have to get bigger, erm which only compounds our problem, any any settlement which grew larger and larger and inevitably would contain more employment as well as housing would become more of a threat to the regeneration of Leeds and, perhaps to a lesser extent Bradford, and it's on [Mr E Barnett:] [cough] Thank you. I'm conscious of the time, and we may like to have a break for tea, but there are also three people who wish to contribute to the discussion. Would you like to have a break for tea now? I mean, I I ask that in the the sense that ha are your contributions going to fairly lengthy? [speaker001:] And mine. [Mr E Barnett:] Right, can we take Mr Cunnane and then Mr Thomas, and we'll do you after tea. [speaker001:] Joe Cunnane, er there are five points which I want to make. First one, er relates to the point made by the Barton Willmore representative, that no account has been taken of additional land that would be needed er for the settlement, for shops, er community facilities, and other infrastructure, er and of course that land is not available, well [cough] in fact the opposite is the case if the new settlement is not provided, because the infrastructure is available within York city, and the York city document er A eight double O nine, paragraph six, makes it very clear that the city is capable of accommodating the needs within its city boundaries where that fr infrastructure is available, er to that extent there is a further argument against the settlement, and that is that the settlement would be duplicating the provision of resources outside of the city, where those resources can actually accommodate it within the city. Second point is that Barton Willmore say again a settlement of two and a half thousand is needed in order to be viable, well a settlement of two and a half thousand cannot possibly be justified under the statistics that we have heard to date, and it is ni it is noteworthy that Barton Willmore representative did not actually promote a need argument, therefore the settlement at two and a half thousand is n well the settlement at two and a half thousand is not necessary, and anything less than that is unsustainable, so therefore in my in my view that is a a further reason why it should not be contemplated as a solution. My third point is coming back to Chairman your point about the paragraph, the criterion paragraph of thirty three of P P G three, and the settlement in my view fails the first the first test, since the very city which it is supposed to relieve says that the need can be met, and I quote, within and on the edge of the urban area and villages. My fourth point is that again dealing with paragraph thirty three, it fails the second test where it should be a clear, and I would like to underline clear, expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, now Mr Jewitt has already made the point so I'll be very se very brief about this, but I my clients, Simon Smith's brewery in Tadcaster, two off fifty seven [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Thomas. Yes, Richard Thomas, Montague Evans. Er most of my points have actually dried up now, sir, in view of what Mr Cunnane has said, and also Mr Jewitt, erm I do actually, I would try to emphasize a point that the people who are proposing new settlements in this location have judiciously avoided the question of need this afternoon, well I think we we almost came to the point this morning that the shortfall was nine hundred and reducing almost on a month by month basis, er one or two quick points I would like to pick up, er in view of the erm small nature or the shortfall in housing supply that we see over the next fifteen years, I cannot accept that to avoid the new settlement option would be prejudicial to greenbelt objectives, erm the housing land supply allocations are almost there, there are plans to run through which will un almost inevitably allocate additional sites inside the inner edge of the greenbelt boundary and outside the outer edge of the greenbelt boundary, but both within Greater York, which are bound to assist in making up the shortfall of provision, and probably, if I suspect rightly, would actually exceed it, erm erm I agree with Mr Cunnane on the question of the alternative expansion of existing towns or settlements, the same point really, we're almost there anyway, the op that option is already there, it's not that it might be there, it is it is there at the moment, er it's not a clear expression of local preference, and I would also point out the option of the environmental improvements under the P P G criteria you asked us to look at, erm whether it's a thousand houses, two thousand, two and a half thousand, whether it has a bowling alley, or a ten pin bowling alley, and a B and Q, and a, probably a Tesco as well, this form of development will not sit comfortably in open countryside, almost, wherever it's put within the Greater York area, I defy anyone to produce a site where one can satisfactorily put er such a massive form of urban development and suggest it's a positive environmental improvement. Another point which hasn't been taken up, despite us being invited to is why is the Greater York area the size that it is, and this is a point that the Senior Inspector raised, er in other towns and cities, I'm thinking particularly of Exeter for example, the districts have looked at supplying their city based land supply problems on a journey to work area, now that area would be significantly greater than we're looking at here, and it seems to me in this location er where we see a potential abundance of supply beyond the strict confines of the Greater York area is a very apposite question to ask, why is the Greater York area the area that it is? Why are we relying so heavily on this arbitrary boundary? Because the result of what we're trying to achieve, particularly if one goes for the new settle settlement option, is to squeeze, as we said this morning, a gallon into a pint pot, and it it would be interesting to hear from the County why the Greater York boundary is what it is. Thank you. Thank you very much. [cough] Well, Mr Davis can mull over that while he's having his cup of tea, and then we'll come straight to Mr Sedgewick and Mr Donson after tea. Can we reconvene at twenty to four, please? [tape change] [Miss D Whitaker:] Yes, could I erm, I just want to take up some points raised by the panel. Erm, indeed the first one was why should, why should the new settlement be located close to Greater York, I think the main main ans the answer to that is of course that York is the main centre in population, and employment in the county, by far. It's it's also the main area of housing demand, it's also the main area where employers want to locate around around North Yorkshire, and I think most importantly, if its development needs are not met, these can won't be satisfactorily diverted elsewhere, they will continue unresolved which would be continual pressure on the edge of the urban area, and on on the greenbelt, and if that holds the effect would of course be that the tight greenbelt would mean that economic growth in the county would be frustrated, because York is the main centre where employment growth is concentrated, and I would think, I would consider that that solution of a tight greenbelt plus not making sufficient provision for development needs elsewhere in York would be contrary to P P G three paragraph three, which I'm sure you're aware of. Well if I could just read read that, a well planned strategy for hou for land, for hous, sorry a well planned strategy for land for housing which ensures that housing is available in the areas where jobs are being being created can make a valuable contri contribution to national prosperity and economic growth, so I say I don't think we would have that erm valuable contribution if the new settlement were located away from Greater York. Now in terms of the cr the need for development, I'm sure the panel will have read all the evidence which has been put in about the long history of the varying impact studies o on development on around Greater York, and those date back of course to the February eighty nine report which I I think you'll have seen copies of. Now my my conclusion from that, and I think is a conclusion which has been supported by the public on con during the consultation exercise on the Greater York study, was that peripheral development around Greater York would have an undue impact on the historic character of the city, and that of course is the fundamental, the protection of which is of course a fundamental aim of planning around Greater York. And I think that the alternative of the new settlement is by far the best solution, provided it is mixed with some peripheral development, one can't go into a position where there is all peripheral development or all new settlement, it has to be in perfect balance, because some needs cannot of course be met by the new settlement. In terms of closeness to York, I take the general review view and I support the County Council that it is generally better if the new settlement is located closer, close to York, because that under proviso that it is well located for public and private transport. If further away the new settlement would be from York, the less likely it would be to meet the needs of Greater York, more likely to meet the needs of other areas, such as Leeds. I think the worst of all locations would be a, would be one where the new settlement would be catering for the needs of Leeds, if it were were located along the A sixty four corridor, South South South of York. In terms of sustainability, we we have done underdone undertaken the same exercise which Barton Willmore have done, and looked at all the various sources, I mean from there you should be including those published by the rural development corporation, commission I should say. We come to the different conclusion, and we we think that a settlement between, from those sources, that a new settlement between fifteen hundred to two thousand could support a reasonable range of services, and we when we look at Barton Willmore's evidence we don't see the support for their conclusion, if one reads each individual service, one fi comes to the view that a new settlement between fifteen hundred two thousand would support a reasonable range of services. Now in terms of whether it should be five thousand plus, that of course is a matter of whether there is demand, now my my conclusion, from my fairly extensive knowledge of Greater York, is that you just could not fit a new settlement that size satisfactorily into the settlement and landscape pattern of Greater York, or its immediate surrounds, I just cannot identify a location where that could be where where the roads, the public transport, the landscape, or indeed the agricultural land quality, from now onto five an area, suitably large for that type of what would be a a new town. And could I just say that I think that the issue of sustainability does also touch upon the need for the new settlement to be be located on a public transport corridor, preferably an existing public transport corridor, and I think again that argument for for s for somewhere where a rail link, preferably, could be provided, and that of course would tend to support all those factors tend to support a location on the Northern side of York rather than the Southern side of York. That's it. [LAUGHTER] Can I pursue one point you've made, Mr Courcier, you say there is nowhere in the York area where a settlement of say, five thousand Five thousand dwellings. dwellings could be accommodated, given that the world is not going to stop in two thousand and six. And an assumption, and it is only an assumption at this stage, that York has a tight greenbelt, by that time statutory. Isn't it a bit short sighted to th to plan to come up against what if you're right would be a brick wall. It won't be us at the next E I P, but aren't you inventing the same problem Well I for the next panel? I think there are two points there, firstly I think that the York greenbelt should not be drawn overly tightly, it should allow for some provision for peripheral post two thousand and six, because there will be inevitably demands arising in that period, which cannot be met in the new settlement, and I disagree with the County Council on their approach on that matter. would would also be wise for any new settlement which you chief specify, that any new settlement you may recommend should also include some provision for expansion land, and my point I think is that you could not divide a settlement as big as five thousand, I think it would be reasonable to say a new settlement make with a an eventual capacity of say three and a half thousand, that might be appropriate around Greater York. You couldn't find that could you? I think one could find something of that order. I think five thousand is just too large and if if there were a need post two thousand and six for a larger, for a for further development, and Tadcaster, two of the 7 [Mr E Barnett:] So are you saying then effectively that looking towards the post two thousand and six scenario, and bearing in mind that that review will not be let, will, is likely to take place at the most within the next five years? [Miss D Whitaker:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Erm, then it may well be for the benefit of Greater York that you might be looking at more than one settlement? [Miss D Whitaker:] Well certainly I don't think at this point there is a need for more than one settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] No. [Miss D Whitaker:] Mm, there may be a need post two thousand and six for a further settlement, we won't know until we see, we don't know the strategic policy context in which that decision will be taken, nor nor of course exactly what sort of demographic requirements may be arising in that period. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Miss D Whitaker:] Most certainly at this point I don't see any need for a second new settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] No. Thank you. Mr Brighton. [Mr Paul Brighton:] I just wanted er, Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. I just wanted to erm pick up on a couple of points that er people have made in the course of a and responses I think to my er opening statement. [Miss D Whitaker:] I'm sorry, people can't hear you at the back. [Mr Paul Brighton:] [crackling microphone] I'm sorry, I just wanted to make a couple of points in response to erm things that people have said in relation to my opening statement, erm Mr Brook er mentioned the fact that er none of the employe none of the new settlement proposals of which he was aware, erm included an employment element, erm I just wanted to to place on record the fact that our suggested reworking of policy H two does provide for an explicit land er amount of land for employment purposes, erm as part of the new settlement location, I wanted to say that because I, I'm not invited to appear on your employment day, and I do feel that this is an important component of the the H two strategy, and clearly that employment component will be drawn from the Greater York allocation, the second point, Mr Sexton erm I believe said that in his view you could not find a site for a larger new settlement er within the or outside the Greater York er greenbelt, erm which would not result in physical coalescence with the existing villages in the area, now I'm not sure whether he was referring to any particular size of larger new settlement, but I invite you to look at the er land range at one to fifty thousand er map of the area, and you will see that the area outside the greenbelt is characterized by erm a very rural area with sporadic villages, and my believe is that there are erm sites available within that area which could accommodate a larger new settlement, the planning point is of course the larger the new settlement becomes, I think the less that that the reduced number of sites you will have available to accommodate erm that proposal, because of its scale, and the third aspect I want to comment on Mr Cunnane and Mr Thomas erm said that Barton Willmore had not made a need argument for the new settlement, well if I'm not mistaken that's what we spent most of this morning discussing under policy H one, and I don't erm I don't wish, and I don't suppose that I'd be invited to repeat the comments made by Mr Grigson this morning, I don't think there's any need for that, but that establishes in our mind very clearly there is a need for a new settlement in the range of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, erm in the period up to two thousand and six, and I won't say anything more on that. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, I mean I I took your need figure to be on the basis of the suggested figure of twelve thousand seven hundred for the Greater York area. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Thank you, correct. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Whip. I'm not, I don't think you're a resident of one of these sporadic villages, but can we have, Flexton is it? [speaker001:] Flaxton. [Mr Roy Donson:] No, Flaxton Parish Council, George Whip. The views of Flaxton Parish Council are supported by Flaxton Village Trust. Most of my comment will be related to the methodology of selection of the site of any new settlement, and not to the question of need which we're now addressing ourselves to. But I don't think reference has been made to a document that is referred to in P P G one, namely the doc the white paper, This Common Inheritance, er D O E document, and in that there's a clear indication that this question of a new settlement erm should be considered, paragraph six point four eight reads, however well urban land is used, there will continue to be a need for building on greenfield sites, it is important that new housing on such sites is carefully placed to preserve the open countryside, and respects the quality of the landscape. Here again there are local choices to be made, one option is the creation of new villages or larger settlements which could offer opportunities for high quality design, and also relieve pressures on existing towns and villages. The government believes that this is an option which should be considered by planning authorities and local communities in the preparation of their plans. In my opinion that supports the line taken in the revised version of P P G three which I don't think dims the enthusiasm of central government for a new settlement consideration as compared with its predecessor, P P G three. The view of Flaxton is that the greenbelt should be kept tight round the urban area of York city, and it is because of that view that we think whether there is a need for a new settlement depends basically on the numbers game into which we cannot go. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. Could we have a copy of that er quote from Common Inheritance? If you'd arrange with the er erm secretary later. Thank you. Er, Mr Wincup. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Ken Wincup, D O E. I'm sure sir you're you're not expecting me to make a a major contribution to this particular debate, but I felt that your the, various comments have been made around the table which would make it exactly clear where the Department stands on this issue. As we say in our our paper, we use the phrase wildly supportive of the concept. those words were carefully chosen as as I'm sure sure you'd expect them to be. Our involvements st with this project started way back in nineteen eighty nine, went into a series of meetings which most recent I attended at the Greater York authorities, we learnt the full scale and extent of the housing land problems in the Greater York area, we of course have no part in the decisions which have been made by the Greater York authorities, nor in the plans they subsequently made for the York greenbelt, but clearly we remain closely interested in the outcome. We heard what Mr er Davis had to say this morning, and at at one point was very very important, we are expecting to be in possession of reports on the greenbelt local enquiry and your report er round about the same time, and indeed since they they are in control of proceedings thereafter they are in a position to make sure that they don't have to reach decisions on one until they are in possession of the other. In relation to the concept of a new settlement the Department very firmly has an open mind at a time, we've heard many statements drawing on the various P P G s, and from some of them you might have been excused for thinking that the Department had indeed turned it turned its back on the idea of a n new settlements, knowing that sort of situation we felt it appropriate before the start of this examination to sound out the residents of two Marscham Street [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Paul Brighton:] which we did, and I'm pleased to say that they endorsed that that general position, in other words their not going to come to a conclusion whether or not they should take any part in the proceedings, whether they should intervene or seek to stop the project until much later in the day. We see we see this forum as very much the right sort of forum for either making or breaking the case for a new settlement, the one thing I do have to say, however, is that the Department wants to see this particular issue settled in the context of the alteration, and full significance of that isn't immediately apparent, it, what we don't want to see is what was envisaged in the H B F statement, where they thought that we might end up with a decision to have a new settlement in principle and then leave it open to the local plans, all four of them around the city, to then explore the possible alternative locations. That's not how we see it, sir, we see the the issue of the location of the new settlement as very much a strategic issue which should be settled in the structure plan context, and not left to local plans to decide. The words are there in in the bi in the relevant P P G but I'm sure you're you're familiar with them, er this is very much an issue which falls to be decided at the strategic level. That does of course pose one or two problems, as far as the locational aspects of the new settlement are concerned, as I understand it neither the County Council nor the relevant District Councils have mandated on the question of location, they've not yet embarked on the detailed exercise which will be necessary to identify a preferred location. But in our eyes that exercise needs to be conducted before the plan reaches its final approval. Just how that's going to be accomplished we don't know, we're not party to the discussions, we understand that the Greater York authorities do plan to meet shortly after the end of this examination, but just what further work is necessary before they then get onto the location aspects we don't know about that, all I would say is that we would expect final plan to have the general location of a new settlement embodied in in that plan before it is approved. It's obviously too early for me to judge whether in the absence of such a definition the Department seek to intervene, but in the word, in the light of what is said in the current P P G I think that must be a possibility, but for the moment, sir, we have very much have an open mind, and we obviously, like everyone else, are looking forward to your conclusions on this issue. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for putting the ball in my court. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [whispering] You'd better take it back again. [] [Mr E Barnett:] I'm not sure whether to bat it back to you, but no I won't. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Grantham. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Er John Grantham, C P R E, erm just coming back to the to the general questions you you asked earlier about about erm consistency with guidance and and P P G three in particular, erm in in the written evidence we we've addressed that, and I don't wish to go over that ground short of saying that that I feel the contribution from er Mr Jewitt, which was Hambledon's particularly helpful in that regard in in I think explaining erm how government guidance is different now to when to to to how it was er at the earlier deliberations of the Greater York authorities, and I feel that that's very important consideration erm, I'd I'd like to restrict my my comments just to two points, and they they both really refer to to things that were introduced by the representative from from Barton Willmore. Erm, Mr Brighton was was critical of the County Council in just using the residual method to determine the size of the new settlement, er and then in in backing up that justification erm referred to to work that is included in in Barton Willmore's proof, I've I have read this survey work quite carefully, and my understanding of it is is that erm by un undertaking a survey of settlements in the county, they have established, albeit f f f for information purposes only, a population threshold for a particular type of service, erm, in in the North Yorkshire context, erm the implication I I understand from that is is that that is being used to justify a fourteen hundred figure or or whatever it is to to achieve the level of services that would would be required for a a balanced integrated community to to use the words for the guidance. I think the the the B W the Barton Willmore analysis appears to overlook the fact, and again Mr Jewitt referred to this when he referred to Easingwold, that settlement evolves over time, and and nobody seems to be addressing the point that that fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred, two thousand houses, however many it is, won't appear over night, erm er th it would take some time for that to be to be realized erm and as part of that there's no clear view as to when the services will come along that are that are necessary to give that community the balance it it said it requires, erm, Mr Timothy from Wood Fram Frampton referred I think to a figure of twelve fifty dwellings for a viable new settlement, and there were plenty ex of of examples, quote, erm that one could look at to to see that was the case, erm I I'd be interested to know where those examples are an and what there make up erm is. Just as an aside,thi this is an issue that's currently being grappled with by Litchfield City Council, where the circumstances are erm albeit on a slightly smaller scale similar with with the historic city, and they are commissioning research on this very subject of of service pro provision in in new settlements. My second point, and it refers to again er something that Barton Willmore referred to and that's the question er an engine of growth, and it seems to to me that that that such a settlement would become an en engine of growth in in the countryside, not least because of of the it would become self fulfilling, er and it would be the obvious sort of sink hole, as Mr Thomas said, for for subsequent land allocations, I think, erm this this point has been touched upon by both the representatives from Leeds City Councils and from Cleveland, Leeds City Council appear not to want it in the Leeds York corridor for just that reason, the representative from Cleveland, who unfortunately isn't here today erm doesn't want it in the North of the county for for what I understand to be to be that same reason, erm and the Inspector at the Stone Basset erm enquiry in Oxfordshire, and I I do refer th to this in my evidence, he he drew a very similar conclusion about this when he said, and I quote, once destep once established the new town would generate a momentum of growth that would be difficult to contain, such growth, if allowed, could further harm the rural character of the countryside and the villages in this part of Oxfordshire, I think that conclusion can be applied to North Yorkshire, and I certainly haven't heard anything that would convince me that that such growth once it started could could be controlled, and indeed the the record of controlling growth against erm projected requirements in the structure plan to date has has not been good, witness earlier comments on the structure plan overshoot. I think just to conclude the the engine of growth argument, erm, has obviously been raised in relation to other new settlements, notably Cambridge and and this has been referred to already, erm the situation in Cambridge is different to York in in that the level of growth that's that's anticipated for that city is is is significantly higher, and the new settlement erm proposals there have been considered in in that regard and and just for the record C P R E have supported the the new settlement in that particular location, but it does seem to me that the returning to your basic point, that that erm if one applies those circumstances in Nor North Yorkshire it does fly in the face of of established policy in the structure plan, and the overriding er policy is is one of restraint in what is is considered to be one of the country's most sensitive environmental areas, thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Er Mr Brook, and then Mr Curtis. [Mr Clive Brook:] Clive Brook, Clive Brook Associates. Er I'd just like to come back on three fairly brief points that er one of which was mentioned by Michael Courcier, two of which er relate to that, and were helpfully stimulated in discussion during the tea break, erm Michael Courcier, I think if I got him right, said, he did say we can't produce demographic forecasts for post two thousand and six but I think he was fairly guarded in saying it it wouldn't be wise or or whatever, erm I would suggest in this context, and in the context of, and I use the word emerging and I look for advice as to when emerging regional planning guidance, and when will be the end date of that regional planning guidance, I say we should be looking beyond two thousand and six, I say we can look beyond two thousand and six, and I would suggest we do it in the way of arrange, which would be highly appropriate way of doing it, not too dissimilar to road traffic forecasts, low medium and high growth, and if, to put the point simplistically, if we have arrived at a requirement figure of nine seven for Greater York for a specific period, if we were to either project that forward by five or ten years, obviously we couldn't just simply go rata, but if you took a low figure and you halved it on the basis of the make up, the demographic make up, of how the nine seven had been arrived at it would be possible to produce a range, that then relates to the question of a new settlement, and the alternatives during the period to two thousand and six, and beyond, of that new settlement, and I go back again to the greenbelt, it is vitally important to do that in the terms of a long term defined greenbelt, therefore again in that context, I would say it is highly desirable, if not necessary, to revisit the periphery of York, it has not been examined in a local plan, it has not been examined in terms of environmental impact, with all due respect to the Greater York working party their, the level of analysis of those peripheral blocks of land was fairly cursory, on a limited number of planning criteria, if a new settlement is to be assessed alongside expansion of Greater York we have to revisit it in much much greater detail. The final point is in terms of deliverability, when could any new settlement actually produce housing? A number of criteria would relate to that and we we simply, it isn't appropriate I know, sir, to go into the detail of that, but I I postulate briefly certain questions. Assuming a fair wind on major infrastructure, access, and drainage, it is unlikely that a new settlement would be producing a significant group of housings until somewhere around, at the very best, end ninety six into the of ninety seven period, in that context, what is happening in that short intervening period, assuming certain planning guidance comes forward to help that intervening period, and will that new settlement actually be built out prior to two prior to two thousand and six, will the fourteen hundred dwellings be built in that period, question mark, probably not, it will lap over, therefore in that context of a gap at the beginning, and a potential overlap at the end, it is very important again to revisit the peripheral land issue. [Mr E Barnett:] I'll point those latter questions in the direction of Mr Davis to pick up in his concluding remarks on this discussion. As to R P G er and its birth, mid December Mr Wincup? [Mr Paul Brighton:] Wincup, D O E. Perhaps. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] And the end date is two thousand and six, as I remember it? [Mr Paul Brighton:] That's the idea, sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, thank you. There's two points in answer for you Mr Brook. Er, Mr Timothy, and then Mr Brighton. [speaker001:] There's Mr Curtis. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry, sorry Mr Curtis, I'll forget. [Mr Clive Brook:] Thank you, Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. Erm, two er three points would I like, erm, picking up a couple of comments earlier, and coming back to a, I think if we use a cricketing analogy, a long hop I'd like to bowl at you Chair, and you may hit it in Mr Wincup's direction. Comment was made this morning, er earlier on by Mr Timothy about the fact that the new settlement would be likely to generate a higher usage of transport than is the norm for Greater York, if I understood him correctly, erm, knowing the public transport system in Greater York, erm, I fail to see how he could possibly come to that conclusion, because bus services in the rural part of Greater York are very poor, clearly that's partly because of the distribution of the rural population, and I fail to see that a settlement of the size being suggested would actually generate a level of usage of public transport any higher than that which ex already exists in the York in flat, and certainly no higher than exists within the exis existing urban area. The second point i is this issue about self containment, er Mr Davis accused me this morning of using some somewhat outlandish words, I think, erm, I did obviously refer to the er my vision of what a new settlement of this size proposed would be, and I I didn't in that mean to imply that I didn't in that mean to imply that I didn't expect that with the right planning that it couldn't have clearly local facilities, local school, library, etcetera, but it seemed to me quite clear that the scale proposed it would not have the higher order functions which as we've heard earlier, Greater York has been defined based on York's planning assumptions, clearly the major shopping, educational, and social facilities will continue to be provided in the city, and it will produce what is in effect dormitory settlement. The point made by Mr Bishop about employment, shopping and other land I also wish to respond to, I think one of the other participants did mention the issue of existing provision, it's been quite clear from the work of the Greater York authorities that certainly shopping terms there is an oversupply of shopping companies in and around the edge of the urban area at the present time, we have a number of major outstanding consents which have not yet been taken up. There is actually more than enough land already available to within the main urban area to provide the types of facilities that Mr Bishop was saying were not currently available. And the long hop as it were, sir, it maybe er not an appropriate time to ask about, but I think it's important to understand, certainly I would like to understand, that if this panel, this enquiry doesn't establish the location for the new settlement, Mr Wincup is implying that that should be agreed before the plan is adopted by the County Council. At what point after this panel finishes sitting then will the issue be discussed in a public forum of this type, or is Mr Wincup saying the County Council can of itself determine that issue without further public examination. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] That's not a long hop, that's a googly. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] I think what what Mr Wincup was saying at the end of the day, is that the Inspector's report and the conclusions on the greenbelt local plan will go back to the parent authority, the originating authority, which is North Yorkshire, equally my rec report, out recommendations on this alteration go back to North Yorkshire, they have to take regard to whatever we recommend, ultimately they will take a decision on that, erm depending on the decision other things may flow from it, and I can't really speculate on what those are at the moment, but effectively the final decision as to what they accept or reject will rest with North Yorkshire. Can I suggest though that there is, using the cricket metaphor again, a long stop role fielded by the secretary of state. Alright? Mr Timothy. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Jus just three brief points. Firstly responding to Mr Grantham and his reference to Litchfield, a city where I work and live, erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Christopher Timothy:] the situa, perhaps it's worth outlining how Litchfield came to look at the new settlement option, because it has some relevance to to York [Mr E Barnett:] C can I just stop you there and say is it relevant? [Mr Christopher Timothy:] It's absolutely relevant. [Mr E Barnett:] To, to anything we're going to consider about a new settlement around York? [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Absolutely because in York, in sorry, in Litchfield you have a confirmed greenbelt right up to the boundary, they were pursuing a local plan for the Li the city of Litchfield in isolation from the rest of the district, and there they were promoting seven hundred and fifty houses to be taken out of the greenbelt. The Inspector who reported on that Litchfield city local plan said, go away, leave your Litchfield city plan and look at the options beyond the greenbelt, including erm the possibility of a new village, and I think that's that's the point here, instead of rolling back the greenbelt you should be looking beyond, you know, what is the general extent of the greenbelt to see what options are available, just coming on then to the size point, again that Mr Grantham raised, I have through erm experience both in the Cambridge situation which I referred to extensively erm in my statement, and in East Staffordshire where we are promoting a plan, er a site for a new village which is included in the deposited plan, we've looked in both the Cambridge and the er East Staffordshire situation,bo at service provision, both from speaking to the providers of those services and whether or not they need a specific facility in the settlement, and from the developers point of view, that if you've got a pot of money what can you afford to erm provide within a settlement of that size, and the conclusions we are rai er sort of reaching are a du a settlement of the order of twelve fifty dwellings can support your primary school, community centre, erm a range of shops, and so on and so forth, so what I'm saying in my submission that the an appropriate size is in the thousand fifteen hundred mark, is that were you can get a reasonable co balance of community facilities and provide the relevant infrastructure in terms of services. And it's going back to the point that Mr Curtis I think misunderstood me, that's basically that if you concentrate new growth in one location you have the ability to plan to serve that development by public transport, whereas if you spread it out to all the points of the compass, you know, two hundred houses in one direction of York, two hundred in the opposite direction would become very mor more difficult to serve than would a concentrated er chunk of development, and that's as simple as that. [Mr E Barnett:] Not so simple, but never mind. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Brighton. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore, Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. You asked, sir, a little earlier for a definition of integrated and balanced community, and erm I'm disappointed that er you didn't recall my paragraph three fifteen of my submission to you were I set out erm I thought erm [Mr E Barnett:] My senses are dimming, having read all this material. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Paul Brighton:] erm, where I set out my interpretation of what that means, and I don't think it's very helpful to read that out to you, but I think you will find that it's er erm a very broad er description of what the new settlement should be seeking to achieve, now Mr erm I think has misunderstood our position on this question of erm the appropriate size for the new settlement, and I think if I'm correct he suggested that we were promoting a a size of fourteen hundred, the point I think I would make is that the larger the new settlement erm the greater the range and the quality of services and facilities that can be provided, and I think you have to distinguish between what developers say they are prepared to provide, on the one hand in a new settlement, whatever the size, the quality of the retail or recreational social facility that occupies that physical provision, and also its long term viability, and I would suggest that a larger new settlement of the size that we are suggesting, is much more likely to er attract a range of quality providers of services and facilities than a smaller new settlement, and also Mr Grantham er raised the issue of the question of the development program, and what might be expected in terms of services and erm during the development program, and of course I think that would be a matter for any specific proposal, or a ma a matter of discussion between the local planning authority concerned and the developer, and I would expect it to be something erm that was included within a section one O six agreement. [tape change] Finally, erm various terms have been erm thrown around about new settlements being an engine of growth and a sinkhole for future growth, erm the only point I want to make there is that any future growth beyond the present structure plan period of two thousand and six would of course be subject to the planning system, there is no automatic erm growth erm of any new settlement that is proposed or may be proposed beyond two thousand and six, and Mr Davis has indicated that at that time a new study will be carried out on the relative merits of the alternative options that were seen at that time. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [cough] [whispering] It's alright, thank you. [] [Mr Anthony (tony) Sexton:] Er yes, Chairman, thank you. Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm won't take up much time Chairman, because I think most of the points I want to cover have already been covered by previous speakers. Erm simply to remind you of the position of of Selby District in in that our interest in a new settlement emerged out of concern for the quality of life in existing villages in in Selby district, and concerns for the impact of future peripheral development in those villages, and not just peripheral development on the edge of York, although of course we acknowledge that as an important consideration and it is for that reason that we fully supported the County Council's proposals in relation to greenbelt, erm you asked the question earlier in relation to the P P G advice and and the six criteria, erm in fact I've already rehearsed that argument in my submission so I won't repeat it now, erm the fact that you chose to phrase the question that way I'll take as a good omen as to the way I presented my submission, but it it it's there for you to read again, the the the main point that I want to address is something that was raised by Mr Wincup yesterday, and that was the difference or not as between Selby district and Hambledon district, er [cough] M Mr Jewitt's made reference earlier to his opposition to the new settlement, and in doing so he he he mentioned the settlement pattern in Hambledon district, he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but one of small dispersed villages, well in Selby district we do have villages of that nature, but the Northern part of of Selby district is significantly deferent to Hambledon, it's characterized by much larger villages, and in fact the establishment of a new settlement wouldn't conflict with with the settlement pattern at all. I can well understand M M Mr Jewitt's concerns, erm I think the simple fact of the matter is that not a great deal of Greater York new housing demand is likely to be generated in Hambledon district, whereas in Selby district a significant amount of er demand is likely to be generated, so really by way of conclusion I I would like through you to ask Mr Mr Jewitt if his opposition to the new settlement is as a matter of principle, or whether he's really stating the case for Hambledon district, in other words, would he object to a new settlement in Selby district? [Mr E Barnett:] I leave Mr Jewitt to answer that question. Mr Jewitt. [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. Erm, I think I answered this question this morning in response to erm Miss Whitaker's erm er question to me, erm Hambledon's objection to the principle of a new settlement is based upon, erm, our interpretation of P P G three, we feel that, as I said, it would be disingenuous of us to support the principle at this stage knowing that we were unwilling to accept a new settlement in Hambledon. Erm, we wouldn't want the policy to progress so far erm as to get to the stage of looking for a specific site and for us to pull the rug underneath the County, and for other authorities to pull the rug from underneath the County at that stage, erm to answer to Mr Heselton's specific question, of course we wouldn't object to a new settlement er in Selby, but erm it doesn't erm it doesn't detract from our objection to erm the principle of the policy, the way the policy's expressed. [Mr E Barnett:] So, putting it another way, you don't agree with the principle of a new settlement, but if it happened to be found elsewhere, other than Hambledon, you'd let it ride? [Mr Michael Jewitt:] That's correct, Chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Satisfied, Mr Heselton? [Mr Anthony (tony) Sexton:] Erm, to a degree. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] That's the most you can hope for. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much. Erm, pursuing now, I'm going to ask whether there are any more comments on this particular part of this issue? Because I would like to move on, but I have got, I have got some outstanding questions to ask, er mainly directed at the Districts, and the County, of course. But does anyone else want to make a contribution? Or do you think we've covered enough ground? Can I, can I then come back to P P G three?... [paper rustling] [speaker001:] [whispering] There. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Which one? [] [speaker001:] [whispering] Here. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Yes, it's alright. [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] expansion of existing towns and [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Why not? Well that's in the [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] for the County. [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] relevant to everybody else [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Aha. [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] it's not specifically for the County. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Mhm. [] [cough] We come back to in fact it's the first par, again it's the first part of thirty three, that you have looked at the question, or the possibility of expanding existing towns and villages, and as I read it, you have rejected that, er and therefore you see the only satisfactory method of providing land to meet the figures for the Greater York would be by a new settlement, this is the outstanding balance. [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] Why? [] [Mr E Barnett:] Why have you done that? Are you satisfied that you've done enough examination of your existing towns and villages to come to that conclusion?... Mr Jewitt?... [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Erm, thank you Chairman. Er Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District. Erm I cannot speak for other districts, and they are a far [Mr E Barnett:] No, I only want you to speak for yourself. [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Okay. [Mr Michael Jewitt:] And they have a far greater proportion of the Greater York area than we do, erm as I outlined we just have three relatively modest villages, erm our, we do have a concern erm, on this, in that we don't ac, given there's a a district and an area have not be identified, we don't feel that there has been a comparative assessment of the two options, we don't dispute that they may well be harm er from peripheral development around other distric, around settlements in other districts, we acknowledged other other District Council's concerns, and indeed, these are arguments we have used ourselves on the scale of development in Hambledon, er but we don't feel that there has been a properly balanced assessment of the two options. [Miss D Whitaker:] It occurs to me, for example, that given that all we've heard this afternoon about the fact that a new settlement and again I'm playing devil's advocate, that if it were possible to build onto an existing settlement the quality of life of those who lived in the new settlement might in fact be better than if they were, to put it crudely, finding themselves in the middle of a field. What I'm really searching for is a bit more evidence from the C, all participants as to why the principle of expanding an exis existing settlement has been rejected, I well appreciate that those who lived in the settlement that was chosen would not like it, but that's not the point I'm getting at, is there nothing in this principle of building on what's there?... [whispering] Mr Courcier. [] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Courcier. [Miss D Whitaker:] Michael Courcier. I think that's a very good question, I think though that that has been looked at very very thoroughly by the County Council, and certainly there are only a very limited number of options available around York which would actually meet the needs of York. And one looks at the two most likely existing settlements on which you could do that to are, of course, Easingwold, to the Nor to the Northwest, and Tadcaster to the South. In terms of Easingwold, I have a client who owns about forty acres who would be delighted with [LAUGHTER] that solution [] but erm, I don't think that Easingwold could support that level of development, if we're talking a around about two thousand dwellings, without very very substantial harm to its character and setting. This is a historic town, I I disagree with Mr Jewitt upon the emphasis he gives to that, but I do agree with him that a limit the type, the scale of growth which that solution would imply would be hurtful, would be very, extremely harmful to the town. It also must be remembered er that the transport links to Easingwold would not be good enough to support that level of development, it does not have a rail station and it does it, and the A nineteen is only a single carriageway road, and would need ld need isagree with Mr Jewitt upon re 1 Now, wouldn't necessarily suggesting that the existing settlement would have to sustain all of the addition given only what it's got at the moment. I'm sorry It could have it could have some more shopping, it could have another primary school, it could have a rail link, or some other public transport link. Michael Courcier. I fully I fully accept that, er you would obviously build in the facilities which are necessary, but the most of the settlements are limited by existing physical and other constraints, and those cannot be overcome, you cannot duel the A nineteen as far as Easingwold without very substantial harm, for example to the open countryside, even if it were physically possible and economically possible, to expand Easingwold, sorry, to expand Tadcaster to the required size, we'd need to roll back greenbelt boundaries, again contrary to P P G two. It er it, we, certainly the expansion of Tadcaster has been looked at quite thoroughly, though not only by the local authorities, but by the private sector, and the, and I think the the agreement has been that it it is not possible at the scale which is required to meet the needs of Greater York. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Would Mr Cunnane, and the District Planning Officer for the Tadcaster area, that's Selby, concur with the views expressed by Mr Courcier? Do you want to add anything to it, Mr Cunnane? [speaker001:] I do wish to add one point. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [speaker001:] Er, Joe Cunnane, er, actually, sorry, two points, erm [LAUGHTER] I represent, ha, that's not I hope that's cheating. I represent erm the the er the brewery which is located in Tadcaster, and erm I can I can er say without hesitation to this panel that erm the brewery object most strongly, or would object most strongly, to any suggestion that a level of population growth suggested woul should be accommodated. Tadcaster is a populat has a population of around six thousand at the moment, and if the s the level of increase that is proposed were su were imposed upon Tadcaster you would be talking about a fifty percent increase in the size of the town. That would be impossible to accommodate without major adverse effect up what is a historic town, almost entirely er located within a conservation area, and as Mr Curtis said, erm constrained by the greenbelt, the final point is er it is located within the A sixty four corridor and it is inevitable that it would serve the needs of Leeds rather than the needs of York if it were expanded in that way. [Mr E Barnett:] Okay. [Mr Anthony (tony) Sexton:] Terry Heselton, Selby District. [cough] This is perhaps one of those rare occasions where I almost agree with Mr Cunnane. Perhaps not quite to the level of the the development that may be appropriate, but but yes, of of the three market towns in in Selby district it's acknowledged that Tadcaster would have a a less significant role than the other two market towns, if I can put it that way, and yes, there are a number of constraints in Tadcaster, not not the least of which i is an ownership constraint. [Miss D Whitaker:] Thank you. [cough] Mr Jewitt, while we pose the question about Easingwold. [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. Erm, I find myself agreeing with what Mr Courcier said, er, about Hambledon, I don't think it realistic to expect existing settleme, villages within the area of search to form a nucleus for a new settlement, they're simply too small and would be swamped by any development, and also the er I stand by the statements made yesterday about the environmental quality of the settlements, about there form, settings, and characters, and I really don't think that they could form the nucleus of a new settlement. With regard to Easingwold, well of course Easingwold is at present outside the area of search, erm but again I do agree with what Mr Courcier has said, it would be a doubling the size of Easingwold, Easingwold is a small market town of high environmental quality, the existing form and pattern of development within Easingwold, erm exercise constraints over the scale of future development, the central area is of a certain size, of a certain quality, it's got a certain amount of capacity to accept further development, and I don't believe that a a erm grafting a fur further fourteen hundred houses could be fitted in to that existing infrastructure without serious harm. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you, very much, yes, thank you. Mr Curtis. [Mr Clive Brook:] David Curtis, York City Council. I thank you Chair, I mean, clearly I have to ask for a little bit of license on this one, in that I have to comment on things outside of my own district, erm but you will not be surprised to hear, given my evidence earlier that the City Council's view is quite clearly that there is sufficient land with, on the edge of York, the main urban area, which could accommodate this type of level of development and obviate the need for a new settlement in the structure plan period, I accept, however, of course that that is dependant upon the definition of the inner boundary of the greenbelt, if the City Council's view on that is er acceptable then Inspector, I believe there will be sufficient sites to obviate the the need for a new settlement, clearly if the Inspector takes a tighter view on the greenbelt, then there will be little land opportunity within the main urban area for this. [Mr E Barnett:] Well I, I mean, you know, just forget your admin boundary at the moment, I mean would you concur with the views expressed about Tadcaster and Easingwold? [Mr Clive Brook:] I [Mr E Barnett:] Just as a planner, never mind where you're working. [Mr Clive Brook:] I I would be surprised if either of those settlements could accommodate the level of development being suggested in a satisfactory way. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Now, Mr Smith, Ryedale. [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Ian Smith, Ryedale. Erm on the question of whether or not we're satisfied that we've done enough examination to reach our conclusion, we've examined our greenbelt boundaries on two occasions, firstly as part of the Greater York study, and secondly as part of the work on the Southern Ryedale local plan. The District Council has accommodated the highest proportion of Greater York growth of all the districts surrounding York over the last ten years, and therefore I think it likely that it would expected to accommodate the largest proportion of the fourteen hundred dwellings that would be accommodated in the new settlement, erm I do not think that any of the settlements or that there is sufficient land within the Southern Ryedale area to accommodate that level of development without adversely affecting character of the settlements, or compromising greenbelt objectives, as I mentioned this morning, and also I question whether or not erm whether th most of the settlements in the Southern Ryedale area have only a minimal s minimal service base anyway on which to tack any large housing growths, and I don't necessarily foresee any subsequent rise in the service base of those settlements as a result of the housing being added on to them. [Mr E Barnett:] And thinking about your district, I mean places like Pickering and Malton are too far away to be satisfactorily considered, are they? [Mr Michael Jewitt:] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Yes they're erm I mean there erm Malton's what thirty minutes drive from York, Pickering's probably forty five, up to an hour. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes. Thank you. [whispering] [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] But he hasn't said whether he accepts the settlement. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] He doesn't. [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] Alright, okay. [] [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] Come back to that one. [] [Miss D Whitaker:] [whispering] Okay. [] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Frost. [Mr Girt:] Lindsay Frost, er Harrogate Borough Council. Just to complete the picture on the districts around York, erm and in answer to the issue raised by er Miss Whitaker, I think the villages in erm the Harrogate sector of Greater York are all far too small to erm act as a nucleus for the size of development we're talking about here, er the largest of them, Upper Poppleton, probably has about seven hundred to eight hundred houses, and that I think would be swamped and lose its character and also possibly suffer from coalescence with the nearby York urban area, if er large amounts of additional development were tacked onto it. Er I'm also concerned that the services in er even a village that size would be erm overwhelmed by the demands of erm large scale development, but that's the largest, there are a range of other settlements which are mostly much smaller and even much less able to accommodate, or act as a nucleus for large scale development. I would like to emphasize that erm the Greater York authorities haven't lightly arrived at erm the strategy for a new settlement, er we have been driven to it by a very careful examination of the development possibilities, firstly around the edge of York, and secondly around the various villages, we know these areas erm intimately from our day to day planning work, and on two occasions, once in connection with the Greater York study, and secondly in connection with drawing detailed greenbelt boundaries we have tramped around the edges of all these settlements and looked very carefully at the possibilities for development, erm the possibilities have been taken up in the development equation, which the County Council has put in front of you, which does still include er some development around villages and around the edge of the city without harming greenbelt, but we don't really think we can go much further, and that's what has driven us to the conclusion that er a new settlement must play a part in the longer term development equation for Greater York. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Cunnane. [speaker001:] Joe Cunnane, I'm sorry, but er Chairman, but I did actually miss probably the most important point I should have made about Tadcaster [Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and that is that it is [Mr E Barnett:] It's never too late. [speaker001:] never, no, and that is that it is constrained by a very tight village envelope which has actually just been defined and statutorily approved as an alteration to the rural areas local plan erm, and th the effect of that village envelope is to limit the possible amount of development to I would say no more than three or four hundred house. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [Mr Girt:] Chairman. Er Terry Heselton,Sel Selby District. Just er for clarification that that is indeed the case as Mr Cunnane says, but the erm the village envelopes were brought forward by way of an alteration to the adopted rural areas local plan which will take us up to nineteen ninety six, erm we will possibly have to look and review some of those envelopes in connection with the emerging local plan. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Sorry to sound a little perverse on that issue, but I, we really wanted to have a clear indication of what you felt as District Planning Officers, er an and indeed we'll hear what the County feel and in fact have pursued through this alteration, but can I again, just for clarification, and in fact it's a sort of final head count, er and again I raise this in the context of P P G three paragraph thirty three, and that is the degree of acceptability, or otherwise, by the local planning authorities, erm and I only need a nod from you, or otherwise, for the record. York, I take it, are not in favour of a new settlement? You don't have to go over the arguments, I've heard that. Ha Selby are in favour. [speaker001:] Correct. [Mr E Barnett:] Ryedale are in favour, in principle. Hambledon, not in favour. Either in principle, or in detailed allocation, but wouldn't object if it went somewhere else. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] I'm not not being rude. And Harrogate in favour. Thank you. Mr Cunnane is that up for some reason, that flag of yours? [speaker001:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Now unle [LAUGHTER] now unless there are any participants that want, really burning to make a comment, er I feel that we have settled, well we've had enough discussion on little A, I've got enough, well I've got enough from you in terms of your views about size of settlement, and Mr Brighton has pointed me again in the direction of his submission about er the definition of an integrated and balanced community, I would like to know, er from Mr Davis whether he concurs with that sort of interpretation, and I have a feeling that we have also had an expression, generally, that at the moment one settlement is probably appropriate, if you have to have a new settlement. Fair? Is that a fair conclusion? I did add that rider, just. Mr Davis, can you, would you like to sum up, and pick up these points, and before, I'm going to bowl you a googly here, erm you have talked about fourteen hundred, as the size for the new settlement, erm, is that the top figure, or is that a figure to which you might aim by the year two thousand and six, but may have potential for growth beyond it. [speaker001:] Can I add that to my list? Er Peter [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [speaker001:] Davis, er North Yorkshire. I want at the end erm, Chairman to give you my views of what is meant by er, an integrated and balanced community because I think that's that's quite important, but before I do that, I'd like to mop up one or two er points right at the end in response to some of the contributions that have been made, and I'll deal with them, Wincup, Curtis, Brook, er and Thomas, if that's acceptable er to you, and really as far as Mr Wincup is concerned, he's quite properly raised the issue of procedural issues about how the Greater York authorities is going to address moving towards er an agreed location, and quite clearly I've got to reaffirm again that the County Council will want to look at both the greenbelt local plan report and your panel report before er it moves erm er forward or looks at any conclusions it may be moving to in the light of those er in the light of those reports, and quite clearly, as we all know, there are a number of options. Er and I, as Mr Curtis has suggested, if Mr Shepherd who conducted the greenbelt local plan enquiry decided on massive relaxation or substantial relaxation on the inner boundary, er of the greenbelt, er and the implication being that er some of that land could be made available for housing, then yes, as a matter of principal that would cast doubt on the new settlement er strategy in terms of the in terms of the numbers, conversely, if you look at another option, if you, for example, confirmed the new settlement strategy but thought that the development requirement for Greater York really was er needed to be larger than nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, twelve thousand, thirteen thousand, and I hope not, then the County Council would need to have a look at the issue of one as opposed to two new settlements, and again we will do that, and we will not take any decisions on the basis of having one report, er but not another, and I hope er that that is helpful, I can confirm that er at the end of this month the Greater York authorities will be meeting, erm and er they will be urgently looking towards erm progress erm on this issue. So that's really a a very important underlining of what I said earlier. Moving on to to Mr Curtis, I don't want to dwell and re re er restate the the difference I had with Mr Curtis this morning, but again he did start a little bit of a red herring running by talking about the major commitment for retailing facilities, er there is a major commitment for retailing facilities in Greater York, er a degree of all provision. But the level of all provision of course is in terms of comparison goods, and in terms of large shopping malls. Erm now I I don't think anybody's suggesting that in er the Greater York new settlement we would be likely to achieve a large shopping mall anchored at both ends, one by Marks and Spencers er and the other by Fenwicks, or or or any o or bins or any other department store, so he must really understand the process and really what we talking about er er in North Yorkshire. Moving onto er to Mr Brook, erm and really this leads into Mr Thomas, Mr Brook er erm er advised us, advised you that there was a very cursory look at er er at sites during this five year exercise. Well I can tell you, sir, that is incorrect, there has not been a cursory look at sites as Mr Frost has already underlined. Er, the forty, fifty sites in and around the urban area, and in villages were looked at in detail, as Mr Frost said, by tramping around in terms of of of I think er twelve criterium, although the part of er York City Council's erm er evidence. As for long term projections er er another issue raised by erm er Mr Brook, er I think if we were to go beyond two thousand and six the debate we've had erm yesterday, er what day is Thursday, er Tuesday [LAUGHTER] and Wednesday, erm and to small degree today would pale into insignificance and really er er it might boggling to to think about it, to try and erm er to draw some sense out of er demographic data for the post two thousand and six er er scenario, the uncertainty would be so great that erm that er we certainly wouldn't er er advice it. Er and then finally on Mr Thomas, er Mr Thomas erm, a number of occasions has er has referred to these sites in and around the er er urban area, if Mr Thomas would like us to show us a list of those sites, er we will look at them, we've been through it on a number of occasions, square inch almost by square inch, but I'd be very interested for Mr Thomas's list of sites in and around the urban area. Now that does bring me on to another important issue, and this is the definition of integrated er and balanced community. What does the County Council mean by an integrated er and balanced community? I wouldn't define integrated and balanced individually, I'd link them together, because to me they appear to be er a concept, that you move towards, and the concept to me is shall we say to provide a balanced population structure, which isn't biased to any one sector shall we say, it's not an elderly, it's not a retirement village there like perhaps you have in er certain parts of er er North America, and the second element of the concept is that it should provide a range of services compatible with its size, but I qualify that by saying, but not all the services that the people in that settlement require, and this brings me back to my discussion, debate with Mr Curtis. If the issue today in some people's eyes is the need for this community in Greater York to be one hundred percent self sufficient then perhaps we really ought to go pack up and er go home, er because there's no way that er a settlement that one could envisage in Greater York or perhaps anywhere else can be a hundred percent self sufficiency, self sufficient, you're not going to get a shopping mall, you'd be unlikely to get a a major touring theatre, so you cannot aim for a hundred percent self sufficiency, you aim for what is appropriate for the size of the community and particularly its relationship to existing settlements er in the general area. You aim for a reasonable provision of jobs, bearing in mind the job requirement, er within that settlement, and you aim for an appropriate range of social, recreation, and education uses, erm er within the village, so that on the basis of our proposal, as we say in N Y five, you will expect to have a primary school. Now I cannot say whether you will have a secondary school, and the reason I cannot say that er is because the education authority will, quite properly, and quite reasonably, look at the existing pattern of secondary education er in the area, and will bear in mind that secondary school children, not unreasonably, as they do now, can be expected, erm to travel, er some distance, er to a school facility, that is the real world, you cannot expect a local education authority to spend vast amounts of money erm on er a high range of facilities, which are not justified by the size, er, of the community, and all these social, recreation, er an an and education facilities appropriate to the size erm of the community, need to be expressed in a pattern of land use which is well integrated, and well designed, in other words, it's a good design concept er, and how do you do that? Well we think you do it through negotiation with developers on an agreed location, and you do it through a brief. Now that is the accepted way of doing it, and I cannot see any reason why that cannot be done, erm in Greater York, once the location for the new settlement is erm er is identified, erm so that's my definition of erm integrated and balanced community, it's a concept, you can't define, I don't think, integrated and balanced separately, you need to bind them together er into into some erm er or all er erm concept, erm now the erm the question you did pose me, sir, which er I did take a note of, but I wonder if you'd be kind enough to repeat it so I've I've a I've a got it quite clear before I respond. [Mr E Barnett:] Well it the question was, do you see the fourteen hundred dwellings for the new settlement as being the maximum size, maximum desirable size, or do you see that being possibly continued beyond two thousand and six? [speaker001:] I don't have any view erm er on that, if I understand your question, because I think it realistic to assume that post two thousand and six one of the options that we could be reasonably expected to consider, together with the District Council, is the possibility of a further, shall we say, how addition to, a a further phase er onto the new settlement, erm so that the new settlement erm would evolve, if that was the chosen option, and as it evolved it may well be that more of Mr David Curtis's higher level facilities er would be added. But it is an option that I certainly wouldn't want to discount at this particular er stage erm because it depends on so many er factors, it depends for example whether er the site that er has been identified for up to two thousand and six, and which is developed up to two thousand and six, has the physical capacity to expand beyond two thousand and six, and I think that that ought to be one of the considerations perhaps that we ought to look at as we move towards the identification erm er of the new settlement, conversely, it could well be that ought to be looking at a second new settlement in a different location, erm I can't give an answer, a definitive answer, what I can say is, coming back again er to Mr Brook, this sort of issue er will not be picked up in nineteen eighty eight or nineteen eighty nine, er if we are all alive and kicking in North Yorkshire and the District Councils we will be looking at it regularly, we'll be looking at it in two years time, one years time, erm erm that's the way we work in Greater York, and it's basically worked very successfully. Thank you, Chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] There was the outstanding question about the Greater York area. [speaker001:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you want to pick that one up now? [speaker001:] Yes indeed, that [Mr E Barnett:] Good. [speaker001:] I think was er er erm Mr Thomas, and I think perhaps hinted on by the Senior Inspector as well, er what is, what is Greater York? to do with Sylvia, erm [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whitaker:] Indeed. [speaker001:] erm I I think if you look back, and again we could put a another paper in on this, N Y one, which was erm sort of a background to the history of planning in Greater York, which er er we we did, which I think Malcolm Spittle wrote for the for the greenbelt, enquiry, erm and that showed that in the, well before nineteen seventy four of course, there there were four authorities involved in Greater York. [tape change] They were the North Riding Authority, er the East Riding Authority, the West Riding Authority, all of which converged on the on the city of York, and as you read through the files, er you will see that even then the D O E were trying to get erm those er those predecessor authorities in the late fifties, early sixties er to come to some view about what ought to be better for Greater York, so for many years the idea of Greater York ha has been current er in one guise or another. What I see as being Greater York is an area outside the city, it's the city and an area outside the city, which is socially and economically linked erm with the main urban area, which is primarily, in terms of employment er and other services, the city, now as Mr Thomas quite reasonably suggested erm things change. We defined the Greater York area erm erm initially in the in the late seventies, erm when we first ran a Greater York exercise, we redefined the area marginally in the middle, late eighties, erm erm and the definition that we have used for the Greater York study since then er is the one that we are talking about now. Now, could argue that Greater York could be bigger or smaller, the local government commission, erm er there report is a very interesting read, I mean a number of the options that they've looked at would be a gra er a city of York going out to the ring road, erm that might be one option, there's a there there idea of of Greater York, they did harden, they did see some merit in in a Greater York unitary authority based on the Greater York planning study I think, erm whether that is going to come to pass only Mr Gummer presumably er knows, so my idea of Greater York is that it's an area which is tied socially and economically to the city, you could argue as mobility increases, as the A ni nineteen is improved up through the County that really Northallerton now is perhaps more within the sphere of influence of York than it was ten years ago, erm e it was probably to a degree influenced by York even twenty years ago, erm I don't think er there is much to be gained by debating where Greater York ought to be, the Secretary of State previously hasn't been bothered about er amending it er it seems to us to be the reasonable area, and it's a combination of five districts, erm erm erm who who who hopefully should be working together towards sorting out the er other problems of Greater York. [Miss D Whitaker:] I understood its historical evolution, what I was looking for I think, and not an answer tonight, tomorrow may be a better day, was how does the area which you have defined, for example, now relate to journey to work patterns. [speaker001:] Hmm. [Miss D Whitaker:] Erm, what other rational is there behind this definition, the reason this matters is th you will remember the Chairman's opening remarks when we started on matter two, that it seemed from the debate we had yesterday there was room within the county for the County Council's proposed level of housing provision [speaker001:] Mm. [Miss D Whitaker:] and therefore the question of the new settlement is inextricably bound up with where that provision is in relation to you br definition of Greater York. [speaker001:] Mm. Erm I [Miss D Whitaker:] I don't want to press for an answer tonight [speaker001:] yes. [Miss D Whitaker:] that may be something you want to think about, can I also remind, particularly the District Councils, those who request this morning for a different version of the H B F commitments statement. [speaker001:] I think we'll get together, Peter Davis, with with the Districts on that particular point, as far as the previous point erm madam, erm then you can rest assured that er the County Surveyor will be rousted out of his dinner tonight er erm when I get back, with a view to er providing the information that you require. [Miss D Whitaker:] Not necessary, Tuesday will do if it's that serious. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, don't spoil the County Surveyors dinner, please, he might stop gritting. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr Davis. Mr Brighton. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore. Erm Mr Davis referred to N Y one erm in his er statement there, in the interests of saving paper I just wanted to er to state that it is included as appendix one [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Paul Brighton:] this morning in our statement. [Mr E Barnett:] I read that as well. Well unless there are any other issues that people want to rai any other items people want to raise on this issue, I propose we close now, resume at ten o'clock in the morning, and we will go straight into matters, well matter two C, to look at the di criteria. [speaker001:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Can I remind you we will not be sitting after lunch tomorrow, but what I would hope is we could probably deal with C and E in the morning,b by one o'clock. We have got a flexibility factor on Tuesday morning, but if I can avoid that I would like to do it, and I'm sure some some others would as well. See you tomorrow. [end of session]

[Joyce:] This is oral history project tape... number two... of Mr Jack... of. My name is Joyce. The date is the twenty second of April, nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number one. Of horse racing at Newmarket. [Jack:] That's a good game. [Joyce:] What else did you learn on the stud farm? [Jack:] Well... did you go to stud when you, when you down at Newbury? Where was, what was you doing down there? [Joyce:] I was near the Red House Stud. [Jack:] Yeah. Well it's [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] good game innit? Did you find it interesting? [Joyce:] Oh yes. Yeah, I watched the breeding and [Jack:] Where?? [Joyce:] Yes. [Jack:] Yes.. It was the finest thing in the world. [Joyce:] Mm mm. It... the method you used in those days... did tha did they change as the years went on or, or [Jack:] No. [Joyce:] did your [Jack:] There were same methods. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Same methods. And I don't you, where was you? At Bigham's Stud? [Joyce:] The Red House. [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] The Red House... Stud. [Jack:] Oh! Where was that? [Joyce:] Newbury. [Jack:] Farther along weren't it? Up the [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Win up the Winchester Road. On the way into Highclear? [Joyce:] But up a bit. No. That's the A thirty four... going down to Southampton. Erm... you're thinking of the Highclear Stud aren't you? Near [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] the Canarvons. No, this one erm... was sort of just [Jack:] And going out to where [Joyce:] going out towards Wiltshire way. [Jack:] Yes. That's right. [Joyce:] And Marlborough. [Jack:] Oh yes. Well [Joyce:] Mm. Yeah. [Jack:] Oh yes, it's erm... very, very, very, very interesting. [Joyce:] So what else did you... do? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] What else did you do? [Jack:] That's all, that's all I could do wa... mind you, I went... when the war finished... when the war finished and that... don't forget, and Reg, when he packed up first, I went to my stud groom and made your beating. When Vales of Clwyd stood there. I had him up there. And another horse called Dormant up... up, up the phantom stud. I had to be stud groom. Then went off from stud groom, from there I went to be head lad with Sammy. [Joyce:] Aha. [Jack:] He wanted head men so I went back and was head lad for him. [Joyce:] So when you were stud groom [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] what... were your duties? [Jack:] Duties? Phworgh! Bloody always on weren't you? [Joyce:] Mm? [Jack:] Your duties were always on weren't you? When you're stud groom you're always on. You're never off.... As soon as the bell goes you're in trouble int you? I must say... yo yo you never, unless you've got a good second man... er especially foaling time yo... my son-in-law don't leave the place. Not foaling time. Never leaves the place. Er... he wo he don't, he er, he... all responsibility on his shoulders [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] you see. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Well they get thirty pound for sitting up you know, now. Thirty pound [Joyce:] Do they? [Jack:] at Newmarket! [Joyce:] What, a night? [Jack:] To sit up at nights, yeah. [Joyce:] Yeah. What did you get in your day? [Jack:] Half a crown. That's what we got. [Joyce:] What's that, for each night [Jack:] Well [Joyce:] or for the week? [Jack:] for the whole week you know. That's all I had, that's all I had to pay my men. Half a crown. That's what we got. [Joyce:] And did they have rota for sitting up? [Jack:] And you, and we was, watching you'd come out and look. Used to have all kinds, you know... o on the team. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] I used to like the moonlight nights myself. Because it was... you could always learn something on a moonlight night. We wasn't allowed on the road. There was a gate made for every paddock. All, all where them boxes are built on Hamilton Road now, that was all our place that was. We give the lease up. That was all Perry 's. Glenburgh, Biado... don't forget. Ellepo. Animals I could na name. Good horses they bred down on that road you know. [Joyce:] Yeah. This is what road did you say? [Jack:] Bred, bred down Hamilton Road. [Joyce:] Hamilton Road. [Jack:] Perry 's. That's where I was. I learnt something... while that war was on. I learnt, a, a, a, a, a good stud groom, a man that knew his job, I learnt mine from. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Brurgh, urgh! Money for old rope. [Joyce:] Well you, you learnt about the technique with the mares... when you were trying to wean them didn't you? [Jack:] Ah? [Joyce:] You learnt about the weaning techniques. [Jack:] The what? [Joyce:] Weaning. [Jack:] Weaners. Ah! Weaning. The weaning as a... the game would be, weaning, you know. Some people leave it late, you know. They even get big foals you know. Er er, well... I tell you interest of a stud is... to, to know one another and to wanna know your stud grooms where you send your mares. See, I used to, I never took a mare away wi with me... in foal, to foal down at fo away, you know, to be coming away... without I had a... to a foal's head collar. Well, that head collar represented that stud groom. When that foal was born we did put he head collar on it, you see. Well, er, stud groom we used to pay them, pay one another you see. If you didn't do that they wouldn't do it for you, they wouldn't pull them for you, wouldn't do anything. [Joyce:] Wouldn't pull them? [Jack:] Pull them, no. [Joyce:] What d'ya mean, pull them? [Jack:] Well,th the first time you lead a foal, get up, put a head collar on and foal them. Put the rook on it. They rear and, fight [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] at you, you know. Er, er, we used to do it out in the muck yard. Get them in the muck yard and th you see, when they used to do that they used to fall over, you know, they couldn't hurt theirselves. See they used to hurt their neck. Put it through a ring, you know. Had [Joyce:] And [Jack:] them [Joyce:] and pull. [Jack:] let them pull a cow collar,wi it was what they call cow collar... learn, the way to learn them. And then lead them with this to come with. Most studs, you had to lead your foal and lead your mare. See? That's how you're taught. So you got a, er, your mare in one hand and your foal in the other, int ya? Lady James, you had to come over a water bridge... at er, her stud. Mare and foal over a water bridge. Out of one paddock into another. [Joyce:] Did that create problems? [Jack:] Yeah. Yeah well they, they was used to it. Lady Road Mentmore, just the same. Look at the, look at the miles you had to walk at! [Joyce:] Mentwater? [Jack:] Mentmore Stud. Lord 's. It's all sold now innit? Mentmore. [Joyce:] [spelling] M E N [] [Jack:] [spelling] M E N T M O R E []. [Joyce:] Mentmore. [Jack:] Yeah. There's not a stud there, they've built on it. Haven't they? Lord 's. Lord ro Lady 's just died and sold her place here. Did you read it? Left hundred and twenty thousand to the... to the sh... her butler and his wife. What do you think of that? Hundred and twenty thousand, and the house. [Joyce:] And left it to the butler? [Jack:] Mm. He'd been with him years. I can remember [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] re... I can go back years when I went there. Years. [Joyce:] Mhm. What did you do there? [Jack:] Well when I was taking mares down into [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] they had the stallions down there then you see, they had stallions at the stud. Which we were there often. [Joyce:] And where did the studs stand? [Jack:] Mentmore, near Linslade. On the way out to Tring. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] On the way out to Tring. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] It's la you go, we used to go... Baldock... Hook er er... Shelford... Shelford to erm... mm. Luton Road, off, just forget the name of some places. [Joyce:] Well you're heading up the A one aren't you? [Jack:] ... I got so used, we used to go the same way all the time. [Joyce:] So you were travelling with the stallions [Jack:] Oh yeah. [Joyce:] or the mares? [Jack:] No, the mares. [Joyce:] With the mares. [Jack:] The mares [Joyce:] Oh so [Jack:] travel with the mares, see. I travelled all... so... all this, Jim that's alive now I done that for two years. Travelled all his mares. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] I took six to Ireland one year. And was it six I took, or four? Four. Four was it? And er, I never had to leave them. And the valuation was two hundred and fifty thousand. The valuation of them. [Joyce:] And you had to stay with them... all the while? [Jack:] Sheldrake Burrows... that was Stud..Whe when you went and you didn't have to leave them, you know. You was insured not to leave yo wha you... I was in charge of them horses, you mustn't leave them. [Joyce:] So, could you, could you [Jack:] They was in box so I've had to go and get my tea and my grub. Cos of the insurance people used to creep about, see if you was in the box. And if you wasn't in your box and anything happened you wouldn't get nothing. [Joyce:] So what happened if you wanted to pop to the loo? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] What happened if you wanted to pop to the loo? [Jack:] Oh! You have to do it inside the box. Get inside the box and do it. [Joyce:] You had to stay with them [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] literally [Jack:] Yes, you [Joyce:] twenty four hours a day? [Jack:] Cor! Ooh ooh! Daren't leave. No, once you take over a job you take over a job. Ah yeah! [Joyce:] Do they still do that today? [Jack:] What? Well er, er some places are very strict. These Arab places I should think they do. Very strict. Especially mares and what they've got er, er today. The valuation of the mares and sanxters Threapingham Stud, I should think so. They were strict enough when I was in, when I flying, never mind about anything else. [Joyce:] Talking about flying the horses... was there special preparation... for flying them? [Jack:] No, you just had your stalls. Used to, we used to put five foals in a... a er, take them like... two stalls, you take the middle stall out and the top box you used to get five foals in. See the, we used to work with the five. The closer they are the better they were you see, they couldn't kick, they couldn't roll about. Got me? [Joyce:] Yes. [Jack:] And er... that's how we used to fix everything in like that you see. I've been the top, middle, down... bu bunk down. I was at the top end one, and all the draught come through the door, paralysed me. And then at the back end you get the... [sigh], you know. [Joyce:] What? [Jack:] Er the... in the aeroplane, you wanna be in the middle, if you can get in the middle you're [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] alright. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] You come, you go to Ireland... and you, you might come in, on a lovely sunny day like this... and you get half way over... and you've go yo you think Jesus Christ has got hold of you! Yo you've got... go get in them air pockets. Yeah, good job you've got hay ni you've got hay net on at each horse, you know. I used to sit the, sit against the wall and hold onto my hay net. Cos you never know when you're gonna drop into these pockets, you know. Don't half give you a ti... [sigh] [Joyce:] Yes. [Jack:] you know, you think it was gone. [Joyce:] Mm. What did the horses do when you hit an air pocket? [Jack:] They just chu you know they, some of them kick about and some [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] goes up rough. And wa and one or two bad journeys with them when they've got out and everything got over the top, top [Joyce:] What in the aeroplane? [Jack:] Oh in aeroplane. Oh yes. [Joyce:] What d'ya do then? [Jack:] Well, get hold of them. Give them the needle quick. [Joyce:] Needle? [Jack:] Give them needle and put them... back in the stalls again. [Joyce:] What, an injection of so [Jack:] Injection. [Joyce:] Wha what do you inject them with then? [Jack:] Well it keeps, just keeps them quiet dunnit? [Joyce:] What [Jack:] Ju [Joyce:] sedative? [Jack:] Sends them dozy and... open the door and put them back in again. Well they get over the top, we had them over the top, hanging over the top. [sigh] [Joyce:] They hurt themselves? [Jack:] Well er, course they hurt theirselves but they're, that's their, that's their look out. As long as we can get them inside, we don't want them outside do we? [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] Oh yes. Well terrible, we've had some, been some funny things. We've had foals get out and everything. Terrible things we've had. Well you'd be surprised, that's why you have cow collars. You have them big cow collars all ready for them, you know. Hold them down. They... want rearing and all that, they want to rear you see but... so long as you get them settled and stand on them... do anything, keep them down. Oh it's not all easy. You don't think it... they're up there, you're flying in comforts. You're not. Not easy. [Joyce:] Do you stay with the horses all the while u in the flight? [Jack:] Yeah. Yeah. [sigh]... Yeah. The young girls fetch the grub along. The girls fetch the grub along. And er to er... well, you know... I could tell you some tales about them. Er, on th on the, on the big planes you see... like when... what we used to take twenty eight... twenty eight out to [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Hong Kong and Tokyo and all them places. We used to, twenty eight... there used to be two lavatories, madam and gents, you know. And these stewardesses you know, they're only just tall and ordinary you know... well they... they'd got black tights, got black'uns on you know, all wore black'uns. And they says... as soon as you see one coming you sa... say... can I got... make your bloody mind up which one do you want! They're all the same the stewardesses []. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] You ought to see them []. Oh dear. This is a good... a good. They were good to us them stewardesses. They were tough sport, they loved it. You know... come down and touch, they were always wanting to be with your horses. Give you plenty of grub. Look after you. Soup... come. Ma myself, of course I was married. Do you know, I, I've come... I've come away from Luton, Stansted... at times, Cambridge especially when I've come down, perhaps half a dozen dinners. Half a dozen dinners, you see, when I've got in and haven't been, you, haven't been in the oven, haven't eaten... phworgh, fetch the home lovely. [Joyce:] You can bring them home? [Jack:] Brurgh, yeah. Too true! Bring the home, shove them in the oven. Phworgh, phworgh! Cos all that... horsebox drivers used to ask for them. [Joyce:] Did they? [Jack:] Yeah, but with us on the plane they had a privilege you see. You would wanna take any grub with you, see. We had a privilege. But the horsebox drivers used to always ask for them. Cos they didn't want it to go bad you see. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] [sigh] Oh yes, it was lovely. It's most interesting I found it. A bit nervous at the start I was, I di hadn't been in aeroplane, you know. Not with horses. Only my son. But I hadn't on... with the horses. That's, the going up... but once you're up. But once you're up you look see then al you're alright. Easy as wink your eye. I don't mind now. Easy. And then... another thing yo you, also, there's tricks in everything. Now, if you had two horses up the front, you see... th their heads are facing this way... the engines,th starboard... er, two engines you see... and they all put starboard up first you know. Always send one engine off first you see. Well the shadow of these wheels going round like that, this is what we learnt,al that's what I learnt anyway, shadow going round like that keep marking on the walls and the sun don't they? So they always used to say if you ever get two up the front take your coat off and cover the windows up. So th... they don't see nothing then. You learn all that. [Joyce:] Mm. Cos the shadows frighten the horses. [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] Mm. Mhm. [Jack:] And the, the row of the engines, see [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] when you start the... and then, the doors... you know, the big door they shut up? [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] The last thing when you're all in, in... when you're all in, and down at the bottom... they curve under like that... you know, curve under. Phworgh! And when it's, and when the blooming wind catches you up there! Ooh! cold. [Joyce:] What it blows straight in? [Jack:] And it gets underneath that... underneath the door and the water can't come in you know, but the... see cos it's... like... fits with the curve underneath, you see. [Joyce:] This is in an aeroplane? [Jack:] Yeah. On the [Joyce:] Mm [Jack:] aeroplane, the last door up, you know, that they [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] clamp up. Yeah that fits underneath. Do you remember years ago... a... an aeroplane burning all the mares in London? All Billy 's mares? The plane come down and bursted into flames. [Joyce:] Did it? [Jack:] All the mares on. I come off that plane at Gatwick... and I was one of the luckiest fellas to be in the called Cohen. We had an come to near, Morris and Co had gone to Ireland. When they arrive in Eddington, go on, go on to, take the plane and go on with the plane to Ireland. Well the plane arrived at Gatwick... and he's had to take these mares back from Gatwick cos the plane that was taking them had broken down. So of course, we didn't go on it, we come home to Newmarket. And everybody sa shouting out, plane come down at six o'clock. I don't get home till about half past nine at night. And said, who's on the plane then? Working the names, they had,wi you know. So well, I always remember it cos my missus was in the White Hart, she was telling me about it. And they come and said, he's coming down street now. And they thought I was on that plane blown up. [LAUGHTER]... That's who, I tell you. [Joyce:] They couldn't believe their eyes could they? [Jack:] No. [Joyce:] When they saw you. [Jack:] No. They couldn't. I was telling you the truth. And the fella that was on it named has, lives up the Goldfinks, he, he's still alive. [Joyce:] What, there was another on as well? [Jack:] Funny, on it. No, yeah, yeah. Another on it too. And the boy at erm... at erm... Mebson, Mebson fella, what was his name? Revs. What was his name that fella? She runs in bus the old woman runs the business now. He was on it and he got blown right out. Everything he'd lost. Terrible thing! Yeah. [Joyce:] He survived it did he? The, the [Jack:] Yeah. He was on it. [Joyce:] i [Jack:] He's alright. [Joyce:] the injury. [Jack:] Bloody too same! [Joyce:] Badly injured? [Jack:] Well he's badly injured, yeah. [Joyce:] What, and all the mares got burnt? [Jack:] But got, he got, he's, he's got a short leg and rips and everything you know. Where he blew out with i he was at... at the end of the plane. [Joyce:] Were there any Newmarket horses on there? [Jack:] Yes! All Billy 's mares. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Yeah. All new foal too. Beautiful. They were all coming back from France in foal. [Joyce:] What they'd been over there to a stallion? [Jack:] Stallions. Yeah. Going to Whitbry Stud. Oh! Terrible do that was. I thought you'd remember that. [Joyce:] No, I, I didn't actually. [Jack:] Yeah. I was on that plane. [sigh]... Yeah. I was on that, there was several of us. One or two more besides me alive today that was on it, but... we wasn't on it when it bursted up. We, we was lu we didn't go back. I didn't go back anyway. Me and Bill, he's dead... we had an ajax come through to and go on to Ireland, to go back to Dublin, yeah, they're going back to with the plane. So they fetched some mares over in the morning. I was very lucky, I tell you. Had some lucky escapes in a way. You work it out for myself. Aha. [Joyce:] Have you? [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] What other sort of [LAUGHTER] escapes have you had []? [Jack:] Yeah. Always. I dunno why, but... when I was in the army I always picked, I never, I, I... I always picked my own pit, you know. Picked my own pit. Funny... I used to sleep on the side of banks, you could dig out on the banks, sleep, sit on the... oh yeah. Where you would think one wouldn't drop, you know. Where you think, but... oh yes, I always very conscientious I was. I wouldn't sma well I wouldn't smoke. But these Iri you're not supposed to smoke on the plane but these blooming Irishmen on the plane used to get down on smoke. That's the last thing the skipper'd say... big red lights, no smoking. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] And the last thing before you shut them doors, you say, and now no smoking. Anything. [Joyce:] Would you have straw in the, in the stalls where the horses were? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] Did the horses have straw in the stalls? [Jack:] No. No. Just stand like, as if you're travelling in an horse box. [Joyce:] Really? [Jack:] Well a bit of straw under their feet. [Joyce:] Mm. Yeah. [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] What about, did you have to take your own feed along... for them? [Jack:] Oh you,we well there, you had a, had a big net. All depends your distance you was going. You had little nets and big nets. As long as they was eating they were alright you see. But some, some you had to give the needle to before you set off. Cos they couldn't hear... brurgh, baa brurgh, baa baa baa, when they first started up, see. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] And they said, and the plane shaked, course the, that rocks the plane. So you had to have it, they when to sle they were worse when they were coming out of it. Their eyes glare. Just like a rabbit with myxomatosis. Their eyes screw out and ooh ooh. [Joyce:] Really? [Jack:] It's terrible! Oh yes, I've had one or two... one or two er... I thi I can't think of the stallion's name, he had a wall eye this beast did. He got out of the planes coming, we, we was... coming over from de Laborgie... and you give him the needle and I had to lead him off the... lead him off the plane, and going down over the chimneys... in Chantilly to landu Laborgie... he goes, woo ooh ooh, getting ready you know. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] Eyes looking back and... I'd got the old bit moving all the time keeping, he said righto... get out, you're leading me, they were too pleased to get rid of them. Let them do what they like as long as you're not... well they do, they kill you, kill you stone dead er them French vaches Cos, see you go in down here you see, where you've gotta jump up... to get out... gotta jump up off the floor, you gotta jump up about four feet to get out see, they weren't just like [Joyce:] Yeah? [Jack:] up onto the horse... you're going on, you go straight in off the road. Vaches Shove them up the back. [Joyce:] What did you call them? [Jack:] Vaches they call them in Fre [Joyce:] Vaches [Jack:] in France, yes. A, horseboxes, vaches [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Vache [Joyce:] In, in the early days,wha when, when you first came to Newmarket... did horses move around [Jack:] Move around? [Joyce:] in those days like they do... in the time you've been talking about? Well, you were talking flying the horses around... putting them in horses boxes... well in those days they didn't have many... vehicles did they? [Jack:] Well they, they we on [Joyce:] So [Jack:] they went by train. [Joyce:] Went by train? [Jack:] All went by train. [Joyce:] Well wha [Jack:] Special tra special trains weren't there? [Joyce:] Did they? [Jack:] They,i if there was a race meet er there... like they have er, in June. That's what they call er,la that's what they call a Scotch circuit that lasts five weeks, four weeks. Er, Ayr, Lannock, Musselburgh, Dogside... Dogside, Lannock... about three weeks it lasts dunnit? And you leave here at twenty to eight at night... a an and you arrive at, you arrive in Ayr in the morning about half past seven. Travelling all night. [Joyce:] Do you stay with the horse all the while? [Jack:] All in horse boxes. Same as at Newcastle. Newcastle, York, all them big places use to be what they all specials. But if you went in the horse box on your single you'd be all day getting there. Cos you were shunted there, and shunted there... took off here, and took off there. [Joyce:] So they ran, did they run a special train from Newmarket here? [Jack:] Newmarket. Oh yeah! [Joyce:] From the station? [Jack:] Yeah. From the [Joyce:] Strai [Jack:] station. Yeah. [Joyce:] Just specially to take horses? [Jack:] Yes. Hor horses only. Oh yeah. [Joyce:] So, how would, how would they work that? Would erm... the... would the erm... racing authorities hire the train off British Rail? [Jack:] We what [Joyce:] Or did they have their own trains? [Jack:] Oh no, you, British Rail. You had everything [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] off of British Rail. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] Oh yes, they, they, they've, they've, they even leave their own head collars and ropes in. But we never used to use them cos they was too big, you know. Too big. But if horse went on his own you'd have to put it on. See? Yo a you'd have to put th their head collar and rope on it. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] Even though it was too big []? [Jack:] On the big sa on,sa you know big sta stallions, you know. [Joyce:] And how did you get them up the station? [Jack:] Lead them up the station. [Joyce:] Lead them? [Jack:] Oh. Lead them up. Oh yes! That was, that's nothing that wasn't. It's like the yearlings from Doncaster, Doncaster Specials. They didn't fetch ten... ye they used about fifty, or sixty, or seventy yearlings from Doncaster all in one special. [Joyce:] What, and bring them to Newmarket? [Jack:] And come to Newmarket to different trainers. Yes!... And one of them best lads of the yard used to go up there and meet the year meet them. Oh yeah. [Joyce:] How did you get up the station to meet them? Did you walk up or... did somebody take you up? [Jack:] If the... yeah there's a fella, there's a fella alive today... I wa I was in the car outside the pub called the Carpenter's Arms with him cos er... ain't you trouble with your, oh oh Chuck his name was, Chuck, I said don't you worry what you... what yo ah! He said, it don't matter a pick. Don't matter who I pick, you know. Pick of the yearlings. He went up there this year, I was up, this is true on God's, I'm in this chair... he said, come on I'll... I'm going now I'm gonna get my, I had to go... I had to go and get Rififi, a filly called Rififi I did. And he went and picked a yearling up and what do you think it was? Sansavino. And that won the Derby. It di nobody wanted to do it, he had a big head... it had lopped ears [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Roman nose, ooh it was ugly beast! Big feet. Nobody wanted to do it. Yet it won the Derby. [Joyce:] It won the Derby. [Jack:] Chuck done it. He done it. Won the Derby. What do you think of that? [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Just... yeah. Eh, oh Chuck. Yes he's still alive somewhere up, over here. Yeah, I always remember that. And Ipea was just the opposite. Ipea weren't as big as your... what you've got. Little tiny old... lovely pony. [Joyce:] Was he? [Jack:] Lovely horse, yeah. Yes, his statue's down the road there. Just erm [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Down Fordham Road. Yeah. Chamus there, the bigger horse, a bit farther on. Oh they're nice places round here when you er [Joyce:] They are all blu Newmarket bred horses? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] Were they all Newmarket bred horses? [Jack:] Yeah! Yeah! Oh yeah. All bred here. Lord 's had Ipea didn't he? [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Chamus there was Solly 's. Oh yes. Th all, all along here, they've all got statues. All the statues of the stud. Oh yeah, they all look alike. But still, ahem, I'm, I'm different to you, horses don't appeal to me. [Joyce:] Horses don't appeal to you? [Jack:] Well I've se I've seen so many of them. [LAUGHTER] [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] Jack [Jack:] I've [Joyce:] I find that hard to believe []! [Jack:] I, I, I, don't wanna know anything about them. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Seven days a week! [Joyce:] Did you have... holidays? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] In the na nineteen sort of twenties when you were in stables [Jack:] Aha. [Joyce:] did you have holidays? [Jack:] Hola no, no, that's what we're all on about today, all us old'uns. Holidays? If you'd had a good horse, you asked for hol holiday with er, alright you'd get it, you wouldn't do your horse, you know, they'd take your horse off you. Take your living away from you. [Joyce:] They take your horse [Jack:] Now th [Joyce:] off you? [Jack:] Well they would, yes. [Joyce:] And give it [Jack:] In them days. [Joyce:] to somebody else? [Jack:] And give it to somebody else to do. So if you were looking after your horse say, you don't want no holidays. Cos, you're getting your bob or two in them days, you know, you use to get money for it. [Joyce:] I was gonna say, did you get perks for [Jack:] Oh yeah. [Joyce:] if the horse did well? [Jack:] Course you did. Yeah. [Joyce:] Who d'ya get that off then? [Jack:] Mm. Well you see that's what they had to do. Now today, they get fifty thousand pound! Here are look... I'll show you one up there look... Oh So Sharp [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] you remember that don't ya? [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] That's up there somewhere. He used to come in here... he didn't know er how good it was, he's a... a bit of... a bit of a lady, you know, kick your eye out, and he come in here, I can see him now si sitting on that chair there... er, and I was sat there... and I said to him, I said er... why don't you start kidding to it and all this madam, you know, give it sweets and this other. He said, only he don't like. He said, he do, wanna bet? He don't like, he don't like. Says you're doing this so's you're responsible. You, do your best. Well he started to buy some bloody peppermints... erm them... bar peppermints... erm... then he bought hole in the wall, them there round ones. [Joyce:] The Polos. [Jack:] Po yeah. And er, he, he got it so he'd eat out of pocket, and exercise, you know, turn its head round and... and in that side, you know. Oh So Sharp would turn, well that's what he got him to do. Well she won all them races. He won the one thousand, as you know, and then she won the Oaks. And then... we went, and that Sheik Mohammed... tha that owned her, he turned round give him fifty thousand pound. Married man with two kids. Fifty thousand pound. [Joyce:] Fifty thousand? [Jack:] He bought the car off my boy... i i it was worth five thousand odd, it was worth... and he, he used to cart me about, see... just... you know, Steve did, before he, we got this money... he used to go up to what is that? [Joyce:] That's the microphone. [Jack:] So he said... and er... he said er, my son said to him, I'll tell you what I'll do, he said I'll sell it to you for three thousand pound ready. And he went to the bank and he got him three thousand pound ready and he got this beautiful car, he hadn't it eighteen months before he wrapped it round a tree. [Joyce:] Ha Ah! No! [Jack:] Well, wicked it was. Beautiful car. Beautiful car. My son done the... yes it was worth five thousand odd. My, my son'd tell you if he was here. Because he was a pal of mine he just let him have it and [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] no readies, no on the, you give me readies you can have it for three thousand dead. If you wanted er four thousand odd it'd cost you, and you can pay me interest, you know [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] on the, on the lot. But he, he give him three thousand in readies and he went and wrapped it round a blooming tree on top of the Molton Road! Wicked! [Joyce:] What sort of... what sort of tip would you get in your day... if your horse did well? [Jack:] Nothing. [Joyce:] Nothing? [Jack:] Nothing. We never used to get nothing, that's what I say. When erm... the gentry in them days wouldn't give you nothing. Wouldn't give you nothing. They gave bonus here and there, sometimes two hundred pound for Christmas. You know, when they share round at Christmas. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Well you come home with hundred pound... if you hadn't done no winners or anything you'd come home with hundred pound. You didn't get that in my time. Phworgh! You get nothing. You just got your wages and that's all. Mm. You'd... people think it's easy... let them have a go at it.... Had my time over again and I, I'm still living here to tell the story, they know [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] I'm telling the truth, Sue and all. Wouldn't give you nothing. That was racing. [Joyce:] Going back to your normal routine, in stables [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] you said you... were responsible for two horses [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] you were responsible for two horses. [Jack:] Oh yes. Yes. Responsible for two horses. [Joyce:] And what would you do to your horse? [Jack:] Well you just carry on every day. You do same... what you done with the first used to carry on, you'd, you have horse give ya, and you look after it. You know exactly what time they're going exercise, you've gotta have it, get it ready to go out exercise. You come in exercise. You'd do it, you'd feed it, go and have your breakfast to while they was having theirs. You'd do your animal, get your next one out. And you always worked by time in stables, you'd get out at say, you went at six o'clock, you got out till seven... and were out two hours, that's seven, eight, nine. You'd do we by the time you get in nine o'clock you're supposed to be re half past nine you're supposed to be finished the first one. You see, what I mean? [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] And have your breakfast. Well you'd get out at, er go back to your other one, you get out, you get about... just after ten o'clock... see? All rush with your grub in your hand. About ten o'clock. From ten o'clock then... you come in, you've got the yard to do, chaff to cut... straw to get in... hay to get in. Bu all, everything to do. You got all th the place has gotta be left tidy as er, if you'd come there in the morning. That's your routine right up to night time and all. There are. [Joyce:] What time would you finish? [Jack:] Well, sometimes six o'clock, eight o, I mean, seven o'clock, eight o'clock. [Joyce:] At night? [Jack:] Night time, yeah. Oh yeah.... [break in recording] When I come out of the, I'd... a th thing I never told you which you should have known, when I come out of the war there were, we was only getting twenty seven and tanner a week in the stables. [Joyce:] Twenty seven [Jack:] Twenty seven and sixpence. [Joyce:] Oh yes. [Jack:] And then it went up to thirty, thirty shillings. And then it went from thirty shillings and thirty two and sixpence. It went from thirty two and sixpence to er... thirty seven and sixpence... and then it went up to two guineas, two quid a week. That's what we was always getting, for seven days a week. [Joyce:] Seven days a week! [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] And no holidays. [Jack:] No. Well ju at the... that's what people, they, they don't know what it is. See they won't, it, it's ridiculous! [Joyce:] Did you have any unions? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] Did you have any unions? [Jack:] Ra [Joyce:] D'ya, you know like er normal workers have a union don't they? [Jack:] Oh yeah. Oh no, not in them days. No. We had, we tried a union here years ago, we couldn't get on with it. Choo! Half in and half out. No, it was no good. I don't believe in them myself. Don't believe in, I said er... er couldn't do anything. And I couldn't say nowt. You mustn't condemn them, you mustn't do anything, you must just sit quiet and... say nothing. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] No, but the people wo la wouldn't realize it. I'll tell you when I was i whe when I was... when I was head man for Sammy I was only getting fifteen quid a week... and my, and my house. [Joyce:] Oh you had a house? [Jack:] Yeah. Fifteen quid! [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] They're getting two hundred a week now. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Two, head man gets two hundred quid a week now. And part, and part [Joyce:] Does he still get a house? [Jack:] and ten percent of the wi er th er the, the bonus of everything in the... winnings? Yes!... Cos without the head man a trainer can't train horse, and I'm telling you that for nothing! My guvnor told me that. [Joyce:] What are the duties of the head man then? [Jack:] What? [Joyce:] What are the duties of the head man? [Jack:] Well the head lad was a, er the head lad had to see... the head lad's er, job was to be there first in the morning... and the last off the place at night. First thing in the morning he'd unlock the doors, lock it up, he'd been there long, hour before the men did. Go round [speaker003:] Yeah. [Jack:] but you see he'd have a list... of the horse who's gonna work or win races... well if them animals didn't eat up he didn't work them. You understand? [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] He went back, some horses left a bit in their manger... I used to have to put all that down... nothing verbal, all on paper. See? And the lads used to come, they used to do, in them days, you know, they wanted to go out in the country to get a bob or two. Cos er, I, I used to say to them... I know where they've eat up or not, I do, and we've got them. I'd say, eat up boy. Yes. [LAUGHTER]... I never used to say that, I used to keep my mouth shut and say... put a cross against his name, see... not to be trusted see the, you've gotta do it yourself see. Go round, and that's how you find them out. And that's how you train horses. That's why trainers are... are good to everybody. See? [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] Like Reg 's good to me. Let me see. But 's lads, you can't train horses, you've gotta tell them, tell him everything exactly. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] That fella up at Cecil's, I should he must be getting a fortune. He got hundred and forty one horses... ten percent and ten [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] and [Joyce:] Erm [Jack:] half the lads doing his work. They don't say nothing. [Joyce:] In your day how many horses would you have when you were head lad? [Jack:] You had to do it yourself. [Joyce:] But how many horses would you have in your yard? [Jack:] Well, about seventy five I had at 's. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Er the most we had at Reg 's when I was up there, is thirty five, forty, forty two. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] That's all the yard'd hold. [Joyce:] Are, are yards bigger today than they were do you think? [Jack:] down there... well he's got hundred and odd ain't he? Look at the boxes he got. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] Oh yes. At 's I had seventy five at 's, he had two yards. Oh yeah. [Joyce:] Were you responsible for working out the amount of the feed that the [Jack:] Yes. [Joyce:] animals had? [Jack:] As to an ounce. Re... Reg... er er, er say we had er say, twenty ton o twenty ton of oats come in... and we soon used them up... before the next lot, I'll start on the next lot... he, the sample man'd come in, you know, sample... in come them oats... he'd come up perhaps, when they come in, check the first two or three sacks with me, you see, and then I'd have to get a rubber... get a bowl full of oats, bowl full of whole oats put into the rubber, see... and get a bowl full of whole and put them through the crusher... and crush... the main, like, you know, like we used to have, just squeeze them, you know crack them [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] weigh them both... see, weigh them both. Every animal's done by weight. When you've filled his hay nets up you give him ten pound of hay. Ten to twelve pound of hay. Then you knew what he was eating. If it was good hay that was as good as two bowls of corn. [Joyce:] Was it? [Jack:] Oh yeah. You get some good hay. You get good bedder hay or good, some mixture, good, good sand, a bit of sand with it is good hay. [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] As long as it's good. [Joyce:] Earlier on you mentioned a rubber [Jack:] Rubber. [Joyce:] can you explain what the rubber is? [Jack:] Well the rubber's a, well, you call it a teatle... you call it a teatle... it's a rubber. We use them as rubbers. See? We use them as rubber and you hold them in your arms, alright? And you hold them in your arm just see the wa I mix them up in the feed, I mix the feed up with some of it, and then tip it into the rubber you see. And they carry them in the rubbers and put them in the mangers. [Joyce:] Why is it called a rubber? [Jack:] Well er, well they were... they always was rubbers since they was, it's proba it's a teatle actually. I in fact, half the rubber you, cos yo unless you order them and buy them like we used to buy them in... some big packets... but erm, you buy them in a shop, you buy them and they've got teatles right across the middle haven't they? Same one. Same sort of thing. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] Only on a bigger scale, they had them made on a bigger scale you see. I haven't got one now to show you now. I used to have one. Called rubbers.... Yes, a set of tools consists of, that's what you want now. And your set of tools used to consist of, what you, what you give the men... it consists of dandy brush, body brush, water brush... curry comb, and a picker. And that's a picker for picking horses feet out with. If you don't look after their feet it... you, which is very important indeed you, see. See horse's feet's picked out properly... before he goes out exercising and when he comes in exercise. See? Now some people don't wash them er, horrible George never washed horses feet out. Understand? [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] And when they picked us out they used to put the rubber on the ground... pick the dirt out of their feet... and put it into their manger, not throw it away, put it into their manger because horses love to lick mud. Love to lick it. See, if you go out hunting or anything like that and you don't... that animal will love to lick that mud off its, off its feet, off its hoof. See? Some animals you cut turfs of... little bits of turf out... and you put in the, in the corner of the box and they, they lick that and amuse themselves by eating it bit by bit. Another thing we do, you'll, give them rock salt. You can have it in on a block, or, and put it on the floor, a lump and put it on the floor. Buy it from Boots as we did. [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] Or otherwise, you buy them in blocks and screw them on the wall. High blocks they're, they're called you know. Lick them, you see, keeps them... people, er, farmers use them today, chuck them out in the field [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] for the cows to lick, see? [Joyce:] Like a brick. [Jack:] They're like a brick, that's it. Haul that... and the they run down, when you feed you see, well, you,sa and you exercise, have you, did I give you exercise? [Joyce:] No. [Jack:] Well you, we come in the mornings, you start about six o'clock, you see? Start the morning about six o'clock and you muck out... dress your horse over... make him ready we call it... make him ready, and you turn out at say, quarter to seven. [Joyce:] When you say dress your horse over you mean groom him? [Jack:] Groom them. That's right. Groom them. You groom them. See, we call it dressing them over you see. Er, you get ready and yo by quarter to seven the head lad see goes and walks round and he says, oh eh okay, come on, get a move on we wanna be out. Well you start getting out so that you leave the place at seven o'clock. The horses are walking round in a ring then. All your horses are out, put your men up... they walk round the ring and at seven o'clock you move off to the heath... to train your horses. Well, you know, practically, the governor or the head you see, he knows what he's gotta work, but erm, I, I know because the lads don't, but he generally tells them well I wanna work so and so and he gives me a bit of paper with the horses names on wants galloping. And soon as he said righto Jack, take the rugs off, I'd take... or the, little lad helps me as well, you know... and he takes the rugs off and then I tell them what to do you see. Some are five furlongs, some seven furlongs, some's a mile. Some are long distance horses, you see, you train them all separately. Not all at once. You do the five furlongs first... and then your long distance runners... see? Your two year olds don't do as much exercise sometimes as the old horses do. Old horses want more time and le than two years olds do. Cos they don't want the time, they don't want two hours dragging about on their legs. But the old animals must have it... see like th for fitness. [Joyce:] Oh. [Jack:] Don't hurt them. And when you gallop them you put the rugs on... and you walk them home quietly... i if it's a nice day like this, you give them a pick of grass in the paddock. Ten minutes in the paddock, pick of grass, see. [Joyce:] Turn [Jack:] Then [Joyce:] them out loose in the paddock? [Jack:] Ye in the paddock, yeah. Just le lea you're leading them home so let them pick a bit of grass... and then you go on into the yard and I'll give them the breakfast, they have their breakfast... and while they're eating their breakfast you're doing your horse... and you get finished and then you go and have yours. And you come back again and you get out again about half past nine, ten o'clock. See? [Joyce:] What's, this with the second horse? [Jack:] What we call a second lot. And the second lot er er is... er, not much galloping. Sometimes you gallop them se if you don't get them all in first lot, it all depends on the jockeys, if you get the jockeys or not. But, then you don't... yo they're not so important the second lot, as what we call, well you call them spares, we call them spare in the stables you see. Today, they got so many horses, like, Cecil got hundred and forty, and 's hundred and forty, well... so you got three lots... you can't do it. He th they, they're not finished here till one o'clock and after you see. They also, must have the time, must have the exercise. You can't win races standing in the stable, you gotta be... fit. [Joyce:] Yeah. Er er [Jack:] And you go on from there... er, you've, mm mm, we come and exercise, they do their own, they sweep up... they sweep up and then carry on with their ordinary routine of every day. They... er you take it in turns, two of you go out and cut the chaff... see? When you, what they clean the horses with, cut the chaff, cut the green mead up... and then all ready. You feed them... half past twelve, whatever it is, twelve o'clock, and then they go home and you come back again at half past four. Then you start at half past four... I'll go round and give them a bit of tea, all of them, you see, see if they've eat, those that's eat up... horses eat up, give them a bit of tea and then the lads start on them... and they dress them over till they sa well, well say, we give them till six o'clock... wa to do two horses. And then I'll go down and ge for the governor and say, alright governor? All ready. And they have to show their horses all the way, the governor walks all the way round the lot of them. See if they're alright. Feels their legs, feels their bodies, feels their skin... pulls the, you know, all, all sorts. All sorts of tricks what they do. [Joyce:] What's he looking for when he's feeling the legs? [Jack:] Well, see if there any trouble. Filling... any fillings er, anything the matter you see. I have, I go round first, I report all the lame one, and I report all the good ones, you see, but I go round them all before I go down to see him. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] As soon as th they're finished I go round them, see? As they finish so I go round their horses and then I've gotta go down and report to him. So and so's, so and so's lame, and so and so's got a big leg... so and so caught hiself this morning, had an overreach. An overreach is, you know what an overreach is don't you? Front, catch a bit off the front [Joyce:] When the back one catches the [Jack:] That's right. [Joyce:] front one. [Jack:] That's, the front one. And I, or the speedy cuts. That's where animals go over the iron legs cut inside of the hocks. You see? You report all of this. And he looks for it when he comes round you see. But he don't worry about it cos he knows th th er, it actually happens you see, all I've gotta do is keep them clean. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] It's my job to keep all the wounds clean. And dress them you see. If it's a veterinary job, well I have to send for the vet. Understand? [Joyce:] Would you call the vet in often? [Jack:] Er, you wouldn't call them in for the petty things. Not, better things you know yoursel what to do yourself. You will know. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] But you always leave it to your governor. But if your governor's away never trust nothing... ring a vet. Understand? [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] If your master's away at the race meeting and anything happened to a horse... I don't carry my respons I don't do it on my shoulders, I go and get a vet. The vet's responsible for it. See and one way, it gets me out of my trouble. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] And the owners are pleased because the vet's seen it. You understand? [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] Pleases the owner. The owners have to re know all this you know. The owners ought to know all this and... and yo your governor. Well I suppose ringing them up and telling them how they've been going, how they're galloping, how they don't gallop. It's all ra mm mm... it's hard, it's not easy. [Joyce:] Would you fill out a, a report sheet at the end of the day? [Jack:] Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah! You can report everything. Put everything down. If you go to, your master's away cu say he's gone to race meeting and it takes two day, they're going to be up at, say Ascot, more likely he goes for the week. See? We get all, I, all he comes home, we works the horses in the morning and goes and stays you see... overnight and [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] everything. I have to do all that. I carry on with the horses, working the horses and then report to him by phone, go in the, in the office and... re he's there at the other end, knows what time I'm gonna ring him up. He's there, and I can ring him up and report to him when he er er, how they've gone, how they're feeding, how they're doing and how they're not. Just to please him you see. And he's satisfied. He lets the owners know, whoever asked him. Well my head man's told me that everything's okay and he's eat up well this morning and, and, he's doing well. See? So it's... it's very complicated but it's er er, you've got to do it. See, without the head man the trainer couldn't train horses without a head man. Or the travel head lad. See they travel half the morning. [Joyce:] It's alright, it was you tapped your microphone. [Jack:] After, did I? [Joyce:] Aha. [Jack:] After, after er er I've done with them... the travel head lad takes over, he does all the ol... the tra... the race course, you know. Does all this work. [Joyce:] What when they go to a race meeting? [Jack:] When they go to race meetings. He's got all the colo his job is to look after all the colours of all the patrons. [Joyce:] What, the [Jack:] See? [Joyce:] the racing colours? [Jack:] The racing colours. [Joyce:] The silks? And [Jack:] Yes. See they're washed and cleaned and everything, if they get dirty or rain or wet. And erm... he goes, say I, say, we've got a runner today, Peony, but erm the lad's gotta go... he's gotta go into the weighing room,wa... well he's, get his form, fill it in... the weight he's got... the jockey who rides him, that's gotta be erm, forty five minutes before the race. But they generally put them in early, about half past eleven, you know? Erm, because you've got all of your orders and the, if you've got blinkers, you've gotta declare blinkers. Understand? [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] All tha you've gotta de all that's gotta be done... on this paper otherwise you'll find... all the, your animal don't run. Well you've gotta declare apprentice, if you have apprentice rider, and you've gotta declare what weight he's carrying, whether he carries five, three, or seven. It's all [Joyce:] What [Jack:] weight. [Joyce:] five, three, or seven pounds? [Jack:] Weight. No, they claim that. Well they claim that you see. Some apprentices claim seven, some claim five, some claim three. See the more winners you ride the less weight... less you could claim. See? Say you, you hadn't rode a winner, well you get full eleven... seven pound. Well after you've rode so many winners, they knock two pound off, you carry five. And after you rode them five, so many, twenty, I think it's twenty, and then... er er you're knocked down to three. And when you've lost that three you're finished. You see, it's up to you to ma well you use your own head and get on then. And you've gotta struggle for yourself. [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] But trainers want good competitors when they're claiming their allowance. And good competitors claiming a seven pound allowance, the trainer'll have him. Cos there's seven pound off horse's back. See what I mean here? [Joyce:] How do they work out the allo the, the allowance? Is it... governed on the weight of the jockey? [Jack:] What? Er yes. Oh yes. Say horse has got eight seven... well you put a sa boy up that claims seven pound he, you, you, he carries eight stone instead of eight seven. [Joyce:] Mm. So you want an eight stone jockey. [Jack:] Eight stone for the boy, yeah. Oh yeah. And if he carries a pound overweight you've gotta declare it... otherwise you're fined. You gotta,se... when you go up on the scales you've gotta er... say... eight ten to ma he carried two pound overweight so you've gotta put him at the scale... and then the end of, the governor relies on the travel head lad to do this, the same as I'm head man at home. [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] He's trusted to do everything. [Joyce:] Saddle them and do everything. [Jack:] He has an authority... you know,yo a written authority in his pocket... and if the stewards pull him up... he's got the authority to, what he's doing, carrying on. Got me? [Joyce:] Mhm. So he's sa he's solely in charge of the horses on race days? [Jack:] Yes. Travel head lad. [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] He's solely in charge of everything. Till the old governor comes and... some, some trainers saddle them, but some leave it to travel head lad. But very seldom interfere with the travel head lads. All good stable I'm talking about, I'm not talking about ten-a-penny ones, you know? All good, the big ones, Kilmarney's, Cecil's, Finlay's. And this fella's just ran, this... Piggot's, all got a... head man to do it for them. Tt. Yeah, that's, that's his one job. That's all he does. Look after the... colours, tack... and travel the horses. [Joyce:] Does he take staff with him to help him? [Jack:] Well no, they take them to go with the horses. [Joyce:] Th the jockeys? [Jack:] No. [Joyce:] Th the, sorry. Beg your [Jack:] The men. [Joyce:] pardon. The stable [Jack:] The [Joyce:] lads who look [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] after the horses normally? [Jack:] Yeah, they go, they go with the horses. [Joyce:] They go with the horses. [Jack:] And these long, then man out see, but they call them travel head lads see? [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] He's head lad over there, and once they leave my yard he's in charge of them. [Joyce:] Mhm. [Jack:] See? [Joyce:] Going back to training the horses [Jack:] Which? [Joyce:] going back to training them [Jack:] Yeah? [Joyce:] how many times a week would you gallop the horse? [Jack:] Oh twice. [Joyce:] Just twice. [Jack:] Er you fe you, you call a time, we used... we used to do it on We Wednesdays and Saturdays. But,th the man like the, they all got different methods, see? Whether they were 's trained ready, when I, men I saw in my time we'd, he galloped them on Wednesdays and Sundays. Cos he had all the jockeys, the jockeys, no racing on a Sunday and he had jockeys to ride them instead of the boys in the stable. Understand? [Joyce:] Er... yes. Now would they normally get their... er a jockey... to gallop the horse rather than just the stable boy? [Jack:] Yes. Instead of them. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] You see th mm... er more... more brains and more idea of it you see. Understand? [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] Otherwise the trainer's satisfied with his own men he do he gallops Wednesdays and Saturdays. Perhaps er, you see, Sundays some er ta er er, every runner goes out on a Sunday. And Sunday's an easy day you see. The not engaged and er, they don't take them out. But runners, they take all runners out and they're out exercise and come in. It's one... one ru... consistent, same thing all the... all the, every day of your life. [Joyce:] What about Christmas time? [Jack:] Oh well yo at Christmas time, they don't do it here, but er... not today they don't, they give horses physic physically a powder now. I used to... er er... when I was head man... on erm... Boxing Day, Christmas Day, the day before Christmas er [Joyce:] Christmas Eve. [Jack:] so like... they would for... two days before Christmas... you, you ball a horse... give a ball, see? And the second day is purging day. You see, that's, two, that's like, start two days before Christmas see? [Joyce:] You give them a ball of what? [Jack:] You give them ball, a physique ball, that's... bitter, you know? Get it into your fingers and you [Joyce:] What laxative? [Jack:] Er, well yeah, it's a li it's a roll like that. I used to roll them in my hand and get them warm and get them in my finger like that and... shoot it down, and watch it go down er [Joyce:] What... pinch your fingers together and push it in its [Jack:] That's right. Chew them. [Joyce:] mouth? [Jack:] You push over the, as long as you got over the. I used to do, get them to have all their heads round and go round and do them. Thirty and forty horses I used to have to ball then. Well, they sa they've... works them the next day, and then Christmas Day we call it setting day, they're all done up int they? See, you do them up. We call it setting day that. [Joyce:] Do them [Jack:] See? [Joyce:] up? [Jack:] You do them up, you don't da you muck them out, dress them over, let them loose... they have a easy time like we do. Like the human beings. [Joyce:] What, you, you, you turn them into the paddock? [Jack:] Yeah. No. In, in the stables. See? And give them, done them as soon as you like, get done as soon as you like. [Joyce:] Mm mm. So they didn't go out for exercise? [Jack:] But Boxing Day, you go out the next day, so, ordinary exercise. You only have one rest. One, Christmas Day that is. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Well some lads have Christmas and some having Boxing Day. So you have to split them up between you. You can't please them all. [Joyce:] Mm Mm. [Jack:] But half of them don't turn up. But you've gotta put up with it. [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] But that's what, that's tha course today they do cos they're getting paid well today. [Joyce:] So,toda what's happens in these days now? They... work them all over Christmas? [Jack:] Oh. No! They do just the same. Work all the while. They have weekends off, what they call long weekends off, Friday to Monday. [Joyce:] Who looks after the horses at weekends now [Jack:] Well, the other men in the yard. [Joyce:] Oh. [Jack:] We have to do them, we have to... help one another. Oh yeah, you do yours and I'll do yours, see? You do mine when I'm off. [Joyce:] Yes. [Jack:] See? I done yours, now you look [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] after mine. That's how they have to do it. But they're doing three each now today you know. [Joyce:] Three. [Jack:] Oh yeah! Unless another... beast don't turn up. But they get their money stopped of course. See, if they don't turn up... they won't come in, they'd ra rather let you have a tenner than come into work. See they're getting so much you see. But today, it's one bu everything's, everything works alright today cos they're getting so much money you see. And they do it alright, they take no notice of it. Lads, give another lad a tenner to do his horses, if he wants to take off, he'll say I'll give you a tenner to do mine tonight. And he does his for a tenner. See you can do that now, but years ago if yo well didn't, they wouldn't allow you to do it. Oh no, they wouldn't allow you, if you can't stop and do your horses we don't want to know you. They'll say ah, if you have stable off, we had to give it to them you see. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] Well you, you can't, you can't stop them. [Joyce:] Going back to the weights [Jack:] Weight? [Joyce:] that they carry when they're racing... how do they carry the weight? [Jack:] Under the saddle, weight cloth. Weight cloths. They're all weighed out with... the saddle, weight cloths. The jockeys, and everything, you know. So... it's the [Joyce:] And how [Jack:] in the stables we... we do exactly with the lads in the stables as the jockeys do in the weighing room. We, weighing machine in the loft or in the, or in the, or in the best saddle room you see, you tell the lad er... fetch your saddle in yourself, get on it, I'll weigh you. And he don't know what weight he's carrying, the lad don't. Got me? [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Th... but the governor who, who weighs you out, he knows what weight yo... what he's putting all out, cos he's gotta... weight the horses out. They use different weights for the horses. He knows what weight all of you got. And then, off you go and... make them ready and... when you get out onto the heath... you just, the horses what's galloping together, you've all been weighed out... and then who's riding them and they all... take the sheets off and they er... straightaway. [Joyce:] And they, do they all have to carry the same weight? [Jack:] No, they don't all carry... I mean, you don't all carry the same weight in gallops. Say, you wanted find out something and you, you've gotta one, one's gotta give so much weight away to something... well gallop me galloping them in extraordinary ways to find out whether he's any good or not. Oh no, it's, there's no... it's not easy. [Joyce:] And how are the weights carried on the weight cloth? [Jack:] In lead. All the square blocks of lead. Lead about as big as that, all go in slots... or. Ah well, if you don't do that, if you can't get it all in that you have leather waistcoats. They give you a leather waistcoat to put on. They know what weight it is. They say, put that waistcoat on. See, that's a stone, see? Say you're eight stone... they make you put that waistcoat on, it's nine stone. And you jump on there with your saddle and your... everything you... see th that's how they find out. All tricks of the trade you see. But they don't let you know what weight you're carrying. Understand? Not in stables. [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] But the jockeys know. When the jockeys come to ride well they know cos th... say what weight are you? Seven ten. Seven ten, seven eleven. You know, just guess within an ounce or two. See? We oh yeah, they don't let the li don't let the men know. [Joyce:] Is that [Jack:] I know what weight they all got, and what they all carry. [Joyce:] Do you? [Jack:] I know them ma myself, I... I've got it all in my book you see, when we [Joyce:] Yeah. [Jack:] gallop them. [Joyce:] Do they not let the stable lads know... so that they don't have an advantage over picking a winner? [Jack:] A well th well, practically, nothing, it's nothing to do with them. See you, you can't ask them... i i it's nothing to do with the lads at all. You see? They, they don't ask. If you, if you're telling him not to look at it, they say look the other way it's nothing to do with you. They tell you that you see. They come to weigh you, see? Say, you go in hospital, they weigh you every day you [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] see. Usually telling you nothing, well they don't say anything to us. [Joyce:] Mm mm. But why don't they want the stable lads to know what weights? [Jack:] Well, it always was secret weren't it, in the stables? Just one... one secret thing all the time. And... they don't want you to know this, and don't want you to know that. Well I know and we're an... the lads don't. That's the only thing. [Joyce:] So you would use... the carrying of weight on the gallops in training to see how fit a horse is? [Jack:] Yeah. Oh I know all, what they've all got. I know, see er er... myself, I weigh all the lads myself, I've got all the weight of every man in my yard... in my book. Governor comes in and says, what's the weight of so and so Jack? Er, eight seven sir. Well put him on so and so. He knows what he's galloping, he knows within a few pounds what he wants. Put him on so and so, and so and so on that, and change them about. See, you have to know all your men's weight. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] And ride work, I mean work riders, you know. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] Work them, I don't say... we... don't wanna lead them out or... or anything like that, do all the work riders. [Joyce:] When the string of horses goes out for exercise... who takes... leads er, leads them out? Because somebody goes up ahead don't they? Rides ahead of them. [Jack:] Well the head lad's, I'm in charge of them all. If it's fifty or sixty going, I'm in charge of them. [Joyce:] So you would ride ahead of them? [Jack:] Oh no. I ra you ride at the back. [Joyce:] Oh at the back? [Jack:] One of the lads go in front, or you have a travel head lad, you got the spare lads who ride a hack. They may be in front leading for you. Lead [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] you across the road and stop the traffic and all this. Ah yes! You always got someone on a hack to help you. Oh yeah. him and he goes out, I'm in charge once I get out sa out of the yard. Till the governor comes, and then he's in charge till... till he's er... worked them all, and then he says [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] ride home. And we, on going home, he talks all about the work. Saying what they're in er... erm... erm, so look, and wa watch so and so very carefully Jack... I've got him in such and such a race. Just see how he's working, you know? He'll want, want me to keep my eye on them all the time what he, what he's got in mind, what's running, when he thinks they'll win races. [Joyce:] Mm mm. [Jack:] D'ya see? Oh yes you... it's a, it's a big responsibility. You know, in a way. [blowing nose] But you don't get paid... you don't get paid for your... I didn't anyway, I, I'd, I, I never thought so. Fifteen pound a week when I was at. Live-in house. It was very underpaid. You know, today they get fifty pounds and hundreds, hundred pound a week, the lads get hundred pound a week now. [Joyce:] Do they? [Jack:] Yeah! [Joyce:] Years ago... when you... wanted to get to the heath... from a stable that was maybe, the... Cambridge side of Newmarket [Jack:] Yeah. [Joyce:] how would you get to the heath? [Jack:] Walked them. Walk all the way round.. [Joyce:] Walk all the way round. [Jack:] Well, round you see. If you're over that side, you've gotta come on the heath... and come to what do I call them? Well I've told you... come to the waterfalls and walk up inside them railings all the time. That leads you right onto the south fields. [Joyce:] Mm. Because at present you've got... what you told me were the horse walks... which are the tracks out here with [Jack:] Yes. [Joyce:] white rails round them... did you always have those rails? [Jack:] No! No. We had to put up with the traffic. [Joyce:] So you [Jack:] Had to take a chance. We used to go through the high street years before motor cars come out. When I come here there was no motor cars, they used to wa hor horses used to go through the high street. Oh yes. You'll see photographs of that everywhere. Oh yes. Er, that was nothing. [Joyce:] So what, one... group would go after another... all the way down the high street? [Jack:] Yeah. And go behind one another you see? [Joyce:] Mm. [Jack:] But just steady the traffic. You know, you had to put up with all that, you had to take your chances in them days. But today, everything's made for you. You go right the way round horse walks. [Joyce:] Mhm. When [Jack:] So [Joyce:] were these horse walks put in? [Jack:] Oh, they've been here about a few years now. Been a few year they've been, been about, must have been... er erm... twenty or thirty year now. [Joyce:] Mhm. And they're purposely designed just for the horses [Jack:] Oh yeah. [Joyce:] aren't they? [Jack:] Trai the trainers paid for them, you know. [Joyce:] Did they? [Jack:] Paid for the roads being done up and everything you know. Oh yes, it's... council don't do it, er, they have to, the Trainers' Association paid for that. Cost a lot of money! Oh yes, they've paid for th all the workmen coming to do them and everything. Done once a year they are. You know... swept and rolled and tarred and

[speaker001:] [talk in background] [Brennan:] if you say and it's true because right erm, the er that was talking about yesterday in lecture involves erm the notion of selfhood in and erm seems to be er a very very deeply complicated er topic, so erm I imagine there are questions that you folks had. There were certainly questions that I had in listening to the lecture and reading of the material and erm as herself said, there does seem to be something of an in own thinking about this. Erm, would be erm as follows. We are aware that there are lots of individuals around us, individual people like Socrates erm and erm Plato, erm and then there is the possibility that in addition to these individual people er at the level of there are corresponding to these individual people at the level of intellect erm there are forms of these individuals. like there is also the level of. Forms for all sorts of, forms for all sorts of things erm the, the normal Platonic range of forms plus possibly in addition forms for Socrates and forms for Plato. Erm, and the introduction of these forms of individuals erm might have arisen as the one passage that showed us might suggest, the passage from five seven on page three of her handout number eleven there, the need for forms of individuals might have arisen from the following. We are enjoined to transcend our bodily selves and we are enjoined to erm move to the level of intellect through contemplation, that is by pursuing philosophy we will withdraw ourselves from our mere bodily selves and be elevated to the realm of intellect. Erm, and one thing that you might worry about is, okay, once I get up there, how do I get back down again? Erm, that worry might come in two different ways. Er, how do I get down at all, erm, of course that might not be a worry, you might and just remain in the realm for all eternity. But then you might worry, if I'm bound to come back down again, how can I guarantee that I come back down into the right erm body again. That is, how can I guarantee that I will remain erm being me after my ascent from the level of the forms. And the erm construction of forms for individuals might be an answer to that problem. That is, when Socrates retreats from his body to the level of intellect, erm, he's represented by proxy in the erm divine light by the form of Socrates. Erm, and then erm he returns from the form of Socrates to being Socrates again and is not either er lost up in the soul erm or somehow tragically transported downward from the level of intellect into the wrong body. Erm, Socrates does some contemplation er, withdraws from his empirical self, becomes intellect and then afterwards er drops into the wrong empirical er self and turns into well, some erm some ho hideous beast. Erm, who knows? He might turn into. Think, think of the person you'd least like to find yourself becoming. [speaker001:] Is he actually intimating here, erm, I'm not, we use the word forms here, but in a more active modern sense to say [Brennan:] Could be [speaker001:] It seems that that would really more easily. [Brennan:] Well, what's the contrast here? [speaker001:] Remaining an identity. [Brennan:] Right, what's, perhaps I should have started with, with the contrasting picture in which, at the level of intellect, erm, there would be no individual forms, but only forms say for human beings. Erm, and another form over here for a horse erm and then when I found my true self erm, here I am, Socrates, and I'm trying to withdraw from my erm what erm called the empirical self. I'm trying to withdraw from the empirical self and erm return to the level of forms. And the form that I return to is the form of human being, erm, that's the form that I have and whatever individuates Socrates from Plato erm is not a matter of the form because they have exactly the same form. In fact, whatever individuates these two happens only at the level of matter or the soul bodily things. Now, if that were right, that is, here's our bodily bit here, that's what individuates them, right, Socrates is shorter than Plato, Plato is a bit taller than Socrates, Socrates has funny bulgy eyes, erm Plato must have been rather a normal looking person, a variety of things that differentiate them, but they're not different in respect of being human beings. Erm, but we're told this interesting thing about them, mainly that, er about them and about us as well, that their true self is not their current bodily condition. Their true self is more truly erm at the level of intellect or forms. Right, that's the whole part about one's true self. Again one could draw as it were a sort of a picture of erm one's true self as a sort of largish lump, er much of which was the body and then within this smaller portion which is the soul, and within that a still smaller portion which is the mind, and then in all of us there is present to us the one, and we're told that we ought to think about our body, that it is not our true self. Erm, that this is a merely transient and accidental something that erm somehow as it were has stuck on to us, rather like some disagreeable substance on the sole of one's shoe. Erm, and so too our body has got stuck on our soul erm but we can shed it again erm to find our inner self. And in turn we can shed the soul to find our true self with the mind. There's tension here. Erm, the closer we get to our true self, seems to be saying, erm the less there is to distinguish er Socrates' true self from Plato's true self erm so it's a little bit dicey about what he's gonna say. How, if, if Socrates' true self is the form of human being and Plato's true self is the form of human being erm then how can we tell their true selves apart? Yeah? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Brennan:] Okay. So, erm, your point is that erm you move upward from your body to a level of intellect and then at the level there's still a further journey to go, up to no one, and that's our true self. [speaker001:] There's a fascinating journey here, isn't there? Because one gets the impression that it's an upward journey [Brennan:] Aha [speaker001:] but I think myself it's an internal journey. So then it's an internal journey, you've done it then, you keep your identity because your journey is into the deepest self where you find you you go through these levels [Brennan:] Right [speaker001:] but not, not out there, but in there. [Brennan:] Yeah, there's no doubt that the one is in each of us. [speaker001:] Yeah, so I mean it's an inward journey. [Brennan:] Right, right. [speaker001:] So, if that is the case how can we possibly lose our identity because we haven't, we're not, there's no suggestion if we go on an inward journey, the inward journey must be within our selves, within our individuality, not, not jumping out into some form of spacial context. [Brennan:] Well, except that, that erm I think that even in defending our idea that we retain our individuality you relied on spacial movement, that is when you say that, or when I say that the one is within us, clearly you must be speaking metaphorically. Because the one doesn't have any location whatsoever, nor for that matter do the forms, even the matter of intellect is non-spacial and non-locational. Erm, so I agree with you that the metaphor of ascent is only a metaphor. It can't really be a matter of changing one's altitude. Erm er there's no lift alas. But neither can the idea of going inward being metaphorical either, it's not as though there's any location within my body erm which is the location of the one. Nor, if the four of us get into your car, are there four locations within the car location of the one. [speaker001:] One of the problems it seems, that I can see about this, is that the little sort of semi- diagram, you could almost reverse the, the and have the same sort of problem in other words. And that seems to be more along the lines of a view er [Brennan:] Yeah, so this is, this a little picture of what Socrates looks like but as you're pointing out erm er also sometimes likes to discredit the whole cosmos in the other direction. It's the one that's all embracing or all encompassing. Erm, and the intellect is within the one somehow. Cos now of course we're talking about the whole cosmos, the everything that there is, the all, the whole erm and then, you're right, he does talk about erm erm body at one er extraordinary point he talks about body, the relation of body and soul being that of a er fishing net er floating through the ocean and erm the ocean is soul and this fishing net is er body floating erm through it. Very very erm suggestive metaphor although I don't know exactly what it's extraordinary one, erm erm erm, the, perhaps we should begin to step back a second here, to think about how we normally individuate things. Erm, that is, normally we think that we and lots of things around us are susceptible to change. Erm, er for instance this book could be changed by tearing a page out of it. Erm and that would alter the book but nevertheless we would want to say, what I did was to alter the book. It was the book that I altered. It's the same book which now is slightly different. That's very different from say er destroying this book and replacing it with this book. Erm, that's not a change of any one book, that's just a replacement of one book by another. Similarly, if I tell you that I am going to move this piece of chalk in front of me, and I demonstrate look here goes right okay, same piece of chalk has moved across in front of me. That's rather different from saying here is the motion of a piece of chalk. Okay. Sorry that's not the motion of a piece of chalk, that's the replacement of one piece of chalk by another. No piece of chalk had moved across the front of me. Rather, erm, one was in one position and then a second took up a different position. In order that is for there to be some change, whether er change er like having a page torn out or a change like moving from one location to another, there also has to be something that stays the same, mainly the subject of change. The thing of which I say the it changes. Erm, so how do we do that with people? Er, I can say for instance that I'm changing because I'm er getting older, I'm getting tireder erm all sorts of things can be said about me. Erm, but they're still being said about me. Er, there's something that's me that survives these different changes of location erm age and size erm all kinds of things are consistent with it still being me that's doing the changing rather than my having been replaced by something else. Well, erm, what kinds of changes can be performed on me and still it would be the case that it's me? That the end be changed and has now been changed. What are those kind of changes on one hand. And on the other hand, what are changes such that we want to say that at the end of the change there is just no me left there at all and I've been replaced by something else. Erm, I take it this is to ask the question, what's essential to me and what's accidental to me? Really this is not er a new division, this is just oral distinction of essential and accidental properties. Erm, so right now I'm wearing a tweed jacket. Erm, having changed my jacket to a blue jacket I'll still nevertheless be me. Because even if I weren't wearing the tweed jacket I'd still be me. If I were no longer a human being then one might wonder whether I was still me at all. If I were no longer er an animal of any kind, one might be quite disinclined to think that one could still talk about any of me surviving. And so on and so forth. We'd make different judgments about this. I'm not saying that there's any strict word answers to these questions, but these are the questions we're asking when we think about what's erm accidental and what's essential to someone. The claim that's being made here is that no one 's body is at all essential to them. Erm, I'm perfectly comfortable that any bit of my fingernail is completely accidental to me, that I can lose it without losing my arm, but the finger is rather stronger. There's nothing about me that erm, excuse me, there's nothing about my body that is essential to me, nothing about my body that individuates me and that's why erm I take it one might think that erm I could actually be changed into a different body, so. Right, any time you read a story, whether it be religious or science fiction, or whatever, in which somebody is taken out of one body and put into another body erm and the story goes, and then was turned into a pig, or whatever, erm, presumably that author has it in mind that you can still identify, that same guy, first in one body and then in the body of a pig. That author presumably thinks that being in a human body is not essential to. You can agree with that, or disagree with that or whatever, but that's part of the defence being made here by erm. This is no part of our true self. Yeah? [speaker001:] This, I was just gonna say, this sounds remarkably like the origins of [Brennan:] Well, erm, I don't [speaker001:] I don't know whether he got it from here, or from another source, but it's very strikingly similar. [Brennan:] That the, that the erm, right, erm, you can go back a fair ways earlier and already find people thinking that you can be transported from one body to another, or even from one species to another. [speaker001:] Transmigration. [Brennan:] Right, right. There's a story about er Pythagoras which is actually the earliest and strongest evidence that the historical Pythagoras actually believed in, changing erm dating from the five twenties or so. It's a bit of poetry by the poet in which he er says that Pythagoras once saw a puppy being beaten and said er, don't beat that puppy, that's a good friend of mine, I recognize his voice. Erm, and so I think that even at that early age, er in the five twenties or earlier, somebody already there is saying we can track personal identity throughout change of not only body but change of species, erm, with these. And the same picture or a similar picture has as well [speaker001:] Continuing that theme, would it not be right to say though that Plato [clears throat] only gave to come back into human form to those people such as philosophers and that most other people would come back as some other form. doesn't actually say [Brennan:] is not over worried about the body. [speaker001:] but the state of, of the soul, the personality, wouldn't change [Brennan:] Hmm, right [speaker001:] He doesn't really actually, does he? He doesn't actually discuss the body as individuality. I think he's discussing our character and our personality rather than our body. Would you not? I mean I don't know. I mean, I get that impression. He doesn't, he's not concerned about the individuality of the body but concerned about the surv in individuality of our personality as it was before we ca we went on this journey to the one. Am I right? I dunno. Am I? [Brennan:] Yes, right. And the body is completely trivial. It's no more than a change of clothing. It, it just doesn't tell you anything interesting about the person, that very, that very same person. Yeah, I agree with all of that. [speaker001:] I don't know, I, I [Brennan:] When we tell them in the, what we say is that erm that very same person came back as a fox, or you know, that very same person came back as er you know ge goose or whatever animal it might be. That is, even in a different body, in a different species, we can still say that person, that soul. And that's because Plato would be locating the individuation in the soul and not in the body. Erm, soul, as you'll recollect, stands in this funny relation erm between body and and when we get up to intellect we're actually transcending the soul as well. [speaker001:] D d this is ever so important. I mean, do you think that perhaps is, is more advanced than Plato, because Plato on this incredible myth of his of going on this journey where ordinary people's view of the form wasn't very good so they would come back in an inf perhaps in an inferior form, but I get the feeling that with we have the opportunity of seeing something that is going to improve us anyway, that we've all got an equal chance of some kind of improvement. Different to the Platonic myth of the journey across the universe like in. It seems to me an advancement. Am I right? I mean I sense that it is. I sense that it is an improvement? [clears throat] It seems to me we're also coming across some sort of Eastern influence here as well. [Brennan:] It could be but I think that the question is asking is, in Plato's view, do each of us have an equal chance of performing this transcendence, or in view do we each have an equal chance of performing this transcendence? I, I don't know the answer to that offhand, but it's, I'm inclined to think that erm at least by the time of the Republic there are things that some people are more naturally predisposed towards philosophy and other people are less naturally predisposed towards philosophy. I am also inclined to imagine that would say something like that. Now, he does think that the one and the mind is present to every one of us, erm, but I also take it that erm he er thought that he himself, had been able to ascend to the one er four times in the course of his life and that he also thought that some of his students were of better contemplation than others and erm so he may also have thought as Plato did, that some people are more inclined towards philosophy than others. Erm [speaker001:] would have thought that the cow down the road had the same chance of getting to the one that he had. [Brennan:] You know, I just don't know. In some way the one is in both of them equally. [speaker001:] Yeah [Brennan:] Of course, the one is also in this piece of chalk too. I mean, the one is just, so it may not be any great compliment to say that the cow has an equal chance erm but, but I, I actually don't know the answer to that one, whether thought that [speaker001:] Apart from the fact that I mean, aren't we actually looking at something similar to erm erm here, in that most of these things were organized, as far as I can work out, was the one that organized all these lectures into but they were originally lectures. [Brennan:] Yeah, I don't know, how might that affect what we are? [speaker001:] Well, in that we're, I'm just, I'm just bringing up a point that yes he, he, it seems that he could well say something like well, the cow herder or the shepherd down the road has got as much of the right as anybody else. The difference is that the cow, the cow herder or the shepherd is not particularly interested in consciously realizing that, whereas it seems to me that what you're saying is that he is. [Brennan:] That pl that he is in [speaker001:] Yes. Erm, and that, this is a sort of a difference between [Brennan:] The cow herder and [speaker001:] Yes, and also assume thereby the difference between a cow herder, and a student of his or whatever [Brennan:] Yeah were right then that might push us back towards the Platonic view, that some people are more. I'd like to get back to what was saying about how it's soul that really characterizes us, it's soul that carries out individuality, and, and not the body. I mean that does have a lot of resonance for all of us. feel that erm I could have been the same person erm with lots of different changes to my body. I could have had erm brown eyes instead of blue, I could have been taller or shorter, I could have been lots of different erm bodily arrangements erm and still be me, just be the same er person. One may say that, one may say well it's really your soul or your character that makes you who you are. What kinds of features are we pointing to there? Erm, for instance, suppose that I think that one of the things that er makes me who I am is erm that I have a good head for numbers. Erm, not that that's true. Erm, but someone else might think this erm about themselves. Then would having a good head for numbers be the sort of thing that would individuate them at the level of their soul? Would that be the sort of thing that? Or perhaps [speaker001:] Looking for truths. I mean, mathematicians are looking for truths, aren't they, in a way? [Brennan:] So, so being desirous of the truth would be the sort of thing that would [speaker001:] Yeah [Brennan:] distinguish one person from another? [speaker001:] I'd have thought so. A good memory or a bad memory would be, oh sorry [too quiet to hear] [Brennan:] I see, so memory of your personal life history. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Brennan:] Yeah, that does [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Brennan:] Sure, it does seem that memory has a role in it. And yet it also seems that er I, I can also make this statement. Erm, here is a complete list of the contents of my memory right now. Erm, a slightly different set of things that happened to me. Then the contents of my memory would be this rather than this. Erm, I wouldn't er remember having erm broken my arm on this date erm I remember rather having broken my leg on this date. Erm, so the contents of my memory would differ and yet that doesn't seem yet to individuate me from someone else. Erm, it's true that in general we do have different memories than other people do er but it doesn't seem to be fully individuating in that any change in the contents of the memory would produce a change in. But yeah, certainly that's one of the things that we think, is that our, er it's our memory of our own historical life events is part of what makes us who we are. Erm, another reason why I can't give you the whole story of course is because then there'd be no reason to take this baby rather than this baby at the hospital, you know, so their histories are exactly identical, I E nil, erm, nothing individuates them on that account. Erm, one reason why can't help himself to that is because that would be a history of change, that would be a history of the body, and that is not intrinsic to us. That, he seemed to insist, cannot be the locust of our individuation. [speaker001:] Erm, can we link it up to any earlier pattern? I'm thinking now in particular of Plato's four so if that particular inclination to be, I dunno, poetical or philosopher, then that would be a kind of individuation of us. [Brennan:] Yeah so, so perhaps the things that, the things that erm seem to us more important than your bodily configuration, whether I have blue eyes or brown eyes, something that's more important seems to be the sorts of desires I have. Do I want the truth, or do I want money? The sorts of capacities that I have. Erm, am I good at this or am I good at that? Erm, perhaps my tastes. Erm, there's some plasticity to all these things, right? I take it that I don't like modern art and yet I can imagine that while being the same person that I am I might have liked modern art. That's not er incomprehensible, it wouldn't involve a complete change of personality, well some of it. So, those are the sorts of things I take it that, that er we do think are a more interesting way of individuating people than their bodily. And I'm sure that that's part of why sounds pretty good when he's saying that it's not the body that makes us who we are, it's not the body that matters. Erm, to the kind of soul that I have right now erm, drag that out of my body erm, make sure that it's the same soul that I started with, drop it into some other body and you'll still be able to tell the story that I, still me, am now in a different body. Erm, that seems like the right sort of thing to say. What though if we wanted to make a further move of abstraction? What if we wanted to say that our true self was not even our desires or inclinations or capacities? Because our true self isn't the soul, that's not our true self either. That's a mere er. Our true self is mind. Erm, or at least mind is our truer self. The sorts of things I happen to like, the sorts of things I happen to be good at or bad at. Those really are not any part of my true self either, tells us. Erm, my true self is merely the part that does intellectual contemplation. Erm, so that I apparently would be still me even if I had completely different desires, tastes, er preferences er so on and so forth. Now it's gonna be a, a bit harder to hang on to the thought here. Erm, can I imagine erm two abstracted intellects, each of them doing geometrical proofs and say about the two of them is they go through the group of er the infinity of prime numbers, each of them is working that through. Can I say about them er now that one, that is clearly Fred, erm, you know just look at the way he does that proof, erm, oh well now, that one, that's clearly Ned, erm that's the way Ned does a proof. Erm, you know people do say these things about computer codes. I've heard people say that erm er software writers have certain individual styles. You can sometimes you know tell one person writes software in this way and another [speaker001:] They used to have that in, in er when they put [Brennan:] some people's hands, right right right. Yeah, same thought. And yet erm what er what seems to have be going against that is that erm at least so far as is concerned, the proof is any theorem is a unique pathway. Erm there are not too often proofs for any theorem. There's a proof because so if two people were contemplating the proof of the infinity of primes they wouldn't be going about it in different ways, erm, if they're contemplating the proof, they'd be contemplating exactly the same steps in the same order. It's getting rather hard to think about what it is that lets me see them as distinct individuals if all that they're doing are [speaker001:] What happens if one of them's looking at it from a viewpoint and the other one's looking at it from a viewpoint? Would that not? same kind of theorem [Brennan:] Okay, or for instance erm I could write up the theory, excuse me, I could write up the proof of the infinity of primes for a variety of reasons. I might be teaching you some er number theory, or I might be teaching you the structure of number theory. I might be saying, look, it doesn't matter what proof I choose but you know, here is an interesting example of it. Or I might be saying, here's an example of a derivation. Or I might be saying, here's the sort of silly thing I was taught when I was at kindergarten. Erm, and what and the these er for a different reason erm. I guess my inclination would be to say that there's only one of those in which we are actually doing the proof. There's only actually one of those which we're thinking about the proof as a proof. [speaker001:] But what I'm saying is that there may only be one proof sense is what we as individuals derive from that proof. It somehow becomes coloured into [Brennan:] Right now, so that's where we need to get, that's what we need to push for. How can we think about something colouring our that doesn't have anything to do with our bodies, nothing to do with our history, nothing to do with a particular that we've gone through, nothing to do with our soul faculties. Erm, some coloration that would make it still ours. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [Brennan:] Terrific. Say something completely different. [speaker001:] Well no, but and I were just thinking well why can't it just be all things together that make us what we are and when you're trying to find a single thing, the only single thing is the one, which is the unity and then there's no differentiation but I don't think that, that we are, we are our body as well and that then can affect the soul you know, if you, if you've got a big nose and all your life people stare at you you're gonna, you're not going to be unaffected by it. [Brennan:] Sure [speaker001:] So, I don't know. But then when you do peel them away, whether you can have a potentiality, like the when talked about he talked about either side of his face timeless void that you had to see the limit of it so that you could have erm that that I was in this body and there's something about this body that I'm going to go back into the body and then that could differentiate perhaps. Erm, otherwise I just think it's very tricky when you, when you, when you try and take away the layers that you're going to just end up with the one that you can't talk about anyway. [Brennan:] Mhm, yeah, I think, I actually think you've made an excellent methodological point about philosophy in general. That is erm whenever people look for an analysis of something, here I've been looking for an analysis of individuation, there's a tendency to consider candidate analyses one by one, singulatum. Erm, it does this er by individuation? Erm, well no. Well, let me throw that aside. Erm, does this suffice for individuation? No, well, toss that aside. And your point, which I think is very important, is erm maybe this is an analysis that has to be given erm by a multiplicity of necessary conditions, none of which is singularly sufficient, but all of which are jointly necessary and sufficial. So erm, for instance, if I were to say, gee what is the essence of balm cake? Erm, is it flour? Er, no, we'll toss that aside. Is it eggs? No, can't be eggs, throw those out. Er, you know, go through all the ingredient. Gosh, balm cake doesn't have any essence at all, you know, erm that'll be astonishing finding is, whereas your point is, look it might just be some of all these things in some proportion or some ratio. [speaker001:] Right but then I suppose that you could say that it's the idea of the balm cake which it would be on the level of the, in, in intellect [Brennan:] Mhm mhm [speaker001:] so the essence of balm cake so it's alright to go from the body to intellect, maybe that is alright, if you just forget the body. But then it's the per it's the, if you're going to the union with the one, it's that coming back [Brennan:] I take it that our explanation, you and I who are the children of the children of Freud, do think that our body erm adds a great contribution to our individuation? That brief story you told about how my physical appearance might affect my social interactions and my social interactions might affect my psychic make up. Erm, that sounds very persuasive to all of us nowadays and I fully believe it, that part of what makes me me is in fact er the fact that I'm this shape and this size [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah except that that is just nothing in the end. That in the end it doesn't make, it doesn't mean anything. [Brennan:] Well as far as thinks, it sure doesn't that's the big difference between us right? [speaker001:] No,. I mean, I mean, lots of different pupils would say that it doesn't mean anything in the end because erm you know, what are we here for, what can we do, you know, and like why you know, I mean I, I'm sure it doesn't mean very much. In fact this is what Socrates is going when he's asked, well what do you want us to do with your body, he said you can do what you like, I won't be in it anyway. [Brennan:] Right,r right, mhm mhm [speaker001:] I think, I think it's important to remember what said about the body. I think, I mean, he makes the emphasis here that the body is not any more than a tool [Brennan:] Ya, that's right [speaker001:] and I think, you know, I mean, it's not how we feel, we're trying to understand what is saying to us [Brennan:] And that's a real that's a real deep difference, that we're inclined to suppose that the body does have some role in individuation and clearly, as you're pointing out, doesn't. That is, when you ask erm er who are we, is any part of what we are made up by the body, the answer's quite straightforwardly no, we er already identified use the body, this other thing. Erm, the body is something else from us and we are the things erm not that are made up of our body but that merely use our body. Erm, popping out of your body is no different I think in from erm driving along in your car and er turning off and hopping out of the car. You know, you're not using that particular tool any more and you hop out of it and walk away. Erm, the body's rather like that I suppose. [speaker001:] It makes it quite clear that we should be in charge of the tool. [Brennan:] Sure, no problem there. You certainly don't want your tools running you, but the, the crucial is that the tool is a completely separate thing from us. When I try to give up who I am erm none of who I am has to do with this external er additional tool. Yeah? [speaker001:] Erm, if you're trying to individuate intellects, erm, rather than take a proof [Brennan:] Mhm [speaker001:] take an argument or a problem. I mean, no two philosophers would give you a sort of similar approach, would they? [Brennan:] [LAUGHTER] Right, right, yeah, no it's a very [speaker001:] I mean, you can a completely different viewpoint [too quiet to hear] [Brennan:] Right, right. Erm, but I think that we also think this is in an in the state of philosophy nowadays. That is one of the reasons why I think that man is in much better shape than I think philosophy's in. Because, if I go to two different mathematicians and I say erm, can you work these sums for me? Generally and for the most part they'll come up with the same sum at the end of the day and if I go to two different philosophers and say, erm can you tell me about free will? Er, generally and for the most part and for the most part at the end of the day they'll come up with completely irrelevant er things. Erm and [speaker001:] Isn't this just the difference between a theorem and concepts? [Brennan:] Could be, but I guess my, my thought was that [speaker001:] I mean, why do we need two mathematicians? We obviously need more philosophers. [LAUGHTER] [Brennan:] I guess my thought was that, was that in view that there we were doing philosophy the more convergence there would be if we really knew what we were about as philosophers. We would not be disagreeing with one another any more. Erm, and that er what causes erm David Lewis to tell the sorts of stories about he tells is this kind of hideous accident that happened to him when he was three years old and then was exaggerated by his [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Brennan:] having the beard that he does. Erm, and what causes erm you know, so tells is another series of accidents that, that are completely at the level of, of historical and bodily erm. Erm, if er, if they had been, erm, all along they would be telling the same story as, if they really could do their in intellectualizing properly [speaker001:] But if you're not trying to [Brennan:] That,th so that's what you need to get a hold of, that's when you need to think, how can we cash that out, how can we give that some content? Does the idea of there being a colouring to [speaker001:] I, I don't wanna stray that much erm from the text we've got but there is some text that has written, namely the one on intelligible beauty [Brennan:] Mhm mhm [speaker001:] where he seems to indicate that erm, for example, he says in there that he, he ascends to the intelligible heaven, wherever that is, I assume intellect. Erm and he says there all things are in all things but each is coloured according to the host. [Brennan:] Their host, I suspect. [speaker001:] So, in other words [Brennan:] The one [speaker001:] Well, or the individual [Brennan:] There [speaker001:] You're talking about a group of individual things [Brennan:] Right, we'd have to take a look at that cos I suspect that if he says each is coloured by the host [speaker001:] No no no no, by the host in which the things are. He's talking about a multitude [Brennan:] [clears throat] Mhm mhm [speaker001:] each the same sort of components, the same components are each colour say in a red individual they'd all be pinky red colours and in a blue individual they'd all be a blue colour [Brennan:] But there is this thing that all of the forms are in the intellect and all of the forms ah are in the intellect and all of the forms do somehow weave together into some sort of unitary thing. There's some sort of er unity and multiplicity at the level intellect, erm [speaker001:] The, the point I'm raising with this is that he does seem, in that particular piece, he does quite strongly, to me anyway, that that individuation is still very strong [Brennan:] Sorry, I thought you said that each of them was in all the rest of them and each of them was coloured by the host. [speaker001:] No no no no, it was the other way round. Rather like the sort of, there, there are various glasses full of different marbles [Brennan:] Is this something we could look up cos, cos [speaker001:] Yeah, it's intelli it's the one on individual. I can't remember what the erm, is it one six? Yeah, it's really quite an amazing [Brennan:] One six, is it? Yeah, great. Erm, which, which [speaker001:] it's quite an amazing er dialogue [Brennan:] I wonder if I have er [speaker001:] the, the, the analogies he uses, he is using there, he says that the sun the moon and the stars are all there [Brennan:] Aha [speaker001:] and in each of the stars are all the sun the moon and the stars [Brennan:] Mhm mhm [speaker001:] but, each star contains the sun the moon and the stars according to its own coloration of them. [Brennan:] Right, sorry, one six is on beauty and five eight is on intelligible beauty. Which one of those? [speaker001:] It would be five eight. [Brennan:] Probably five eight rather than cos yeah I erm okay see erm right right right... erm, so the thing that I would be looking for, if I could find this, would be what's doing the colouring and how, how does that work? That is, is the colour rising up from underneath in an individuating way, or is it a light cast from down er from on top by the one, which then couldn't individuate them with respect to people for instance. It would be, as it were, a diffused light. Erm, so that's just a question to ask when you next come to erm this passage. Er, if I can't find it right now, which [speaker001:] Yeah, the other phrase he uses is something like all is in each [Brennan:] Yeah [speaker001:] and each is in the all [Brennan:] Oh sure [speaker001:] So all orange in I assume the one but also the one is in all in each of the [Brennan:] Even at the level of forms they're all in each [speaker001:] Even at the level of forms [Brennan:] yeah, yeah. This is, this notion of they're all being woven together. Erm in Plato talks about the, the weaving together of forms and it says erm er it's [speaking latin] it's er through the weaving together of forms that reason arises in us and but then again this is the level of as well so I think that this is the, the origin of this notion that all the forms are in each, they're all woven together somehow. Erm, but erm will that help us? Think about two people's abstract contemplation would still be the contemplation of two different people. Erm, and then, once we sort that all out, what will we say again at the level of the one? Erm, that is, how can we make sure that erm Plato, or Socrates, doesn't descend to this level and then ascend to the one, as everyone else is, erm and then having got up this side somehow come down this? Erm what, when one is at the level of the one, what makes you who you are? How can you guarantee that you will be restored to your proper un-self? How can you trap that individual through their ascent and descent? that is. [speaker001:] Erm well I mean he seems to be implicating somehow here that the more that you go up to soul and intellect to the one, the more you properly become your true self. Therefore, yourself, your individuality, is somehow enhanced by this [Brennan:] Yes, there's no doubt he says all that, right [speaker001:] and, and that really would lead to the of self not of detriment of self [Brennan:] Yes, there's no doubt that that's exactly what he thinks [speaker001:] and yes, well, I don't see what the problem is, I mean you become properly yourself in that case, so what's the problem? [Brennan:] [LAUGHTER] Perhaps this is a limited individual problem. I can't make any sense of what he's saying because it seems to me that erm our common and everyday and perhaps very deficient notion of individuation is, what makes me different from the rest of you? Okay so, so look at two individuals in two different ways. Take a pencil X and say, what is it that makes X a separate individual from Y, okay? that'd be a different thing. Now take a and say, what is it that allows me to say that the individual X in this s erm cell of the film is the same individual X as in this cell of the film. That is, what is the underlying subject of change? Think of those as the two deep questions about individuation. How can you tell X from Y and how can you tell that X is still X, that it's still the same thing it was? When we think about those questions of individ individuation in our normal affairs, the best we can do is to say that what individuates us and also what makes us the same person through changes over time, is a great medley of factors, some of which are bodily, some of which involve our souls [speaker001:] Yeah, but he would say that you can't do it in terms of space and time. [Brennan:] He certainly would, but what in heaven's name is he talking about? If it's some notion of individuation which has nothing to do with the body, nothing to do with the soul and nothing to do, ultimately, with the intellect either. Yeah, that's why it's an. I mean th this is, this is exactly what was saying, he owes us more of an account. Erm, he has stripped away from these true selves everything that we normally think of as institute of, of a self. [speaker001:] In a sense and a I'm not sure if it's only in a sense, that, that when we talk now of say aren't we trying to approach the same? [Brennan:] Erm, could be [speaker001:] Well I mean, if we're talking about sort of and they're looking for a sense of identity of whatever it is that they're having of [Brennan:] That is I think that when I refer to and when I refer to I am referring to the same thing [speaker001:] Yeah [Brennan:] and that each remain the same thing although being described by a variety of different er descriptions. Er, just as I think that erm a variety of descriptions can pick out me. Erm, the only person in the room standing, er the only person in the room holding a book, erm you know, the, the, the er sole American in the room. Lots of different descriptions always pick out the same me. Erm, and all of which, in that case, seem to me completely and have nothing really to do with me. That is, I, I take it would still be me even if I were seated, I would still be me even if I weren't holding a book, possibly I'd still be me even if I weren't American. Chances are [speaker001:] In all possible worlds you'd still be you [LAUGHTER] [Brennan:] Nevertheless, right, there seems to be something that, that, that survives all of those changes er that we can talk about and still me. [speaker001:] I mean, it does seem on page three nine really what we're talking about, trying to get some sense into that [Brennan:] Right right [speaker001:] Er, I dunno what you think but I mean it does state there, it's quite interesting if one reads it out [Brennan:] Mhm mhm [speaker001:] what we're trying to address now [Brennan:] definitely, this is the crux. [speaker001:] that is the crux of the whole of that lecture really number nine [Brennan:] Yes, yes, I agree, I agree, right so [speaker001:] I don't know how to interpret that. I mean, you can understand it, but then you get his, but now another man wishes to exist [Brennan:] Yes [speaker001:] you see, I mean, how can you interpret that? [Brennan:] I don't know, I don't know, although I ought to warn you that another way of interpreting the Greek would be, but now a man wishes to be another approached that man. Erm, you could take the as one unit and say, but now a man, wishing to be another, approached that man, and when he found us, for we were not outside the all, he wound himself round us and attached himself to that man who was then each one of us. That man, okay, singular, who was then each one of us, plural, erm erm, I take it that, that erm one of the things that we could conclude from this entire discussion is that our notion of selfhood erm which is our modern notion of selfhood, deeply bound up with erm personal history, you know, Locke's erm, what is Locke's example? The dashing cavalier, er the, Locke tells a story about someone who in their youth was a k a cavalry officer erm and how this person in later life, their memory of being a cavally off cavalry officer is part of what individuates them. Erm, so in individuation has lots to do with physical attributes, lots to do with personal history and memory, lots to do with psychic characteristics such as desires, capacities, abilities, preferences, tastes and so on and so forth. Maybe what we should say at the end of the day is erm just isn't talking about that, he's on about a completely different subject and we really shouldn't erm we shouldn't beat over the head for having a bad theory of the self. Maybe he just doesn't, you know, he doesn't wanna talk about the self. Maybe he's talking about it all. Maybe he's under a different notion. Erm, er he might be doing a very good job of explaining some other notion, not the notion of a self or an individual, but er something else. Erm, maybe that would be the more fair thing to say at the end of the day. Erm [speaker001:] Well, when she, when it was, but now another man wishing to exist approaches that man, did she say that man was the intellect? [Brennan:] It's tough, I don't know erm take, take a look about four lines above. Now even if or erm er let's start from the top. But we, who are we? Are we, two choices, that which draws nearer and comes to be in time, that's the first choice. No, even before this coming to be er came to be we were there and we were men who were different and some of us were even gods and we were pure souls and intellects. Okay, so apparently that original we had something to do with intellects united with the whole of reality. Reality's a bad translation. United with the whole of being. Remember being is a level of intellect, whereas the one is above being. So it says united with the whole of reality, that means at the level of intellect, being. [speaker001:] What are we t where are we going to face reality then? [Brennan:] being or intellect is, is reality. Reality is at the level of, of er intellect. Erm, we were pure souls and intellect united with the whole of being. We were parts of the intelligible. Not marked off, or cut off, but belonging to the whole. Erm, I should also say that bit about some of us were even gods, erm that also is erm there are some options there on translation erm you could also say men who were different and particular, that is we were and erm particular humans and we were gods. That would be to say not some of us were gods but all of us were gods. Erm so that's another possibility. Er men who were different and particular and gods. Erm, so we were pure souls and we were intellects, united with the whole of being, I E the forms. We were parts of the intelligible, not marked off or cut off, but belonging to the whole. Er I take it to the whole of reality er or being [speaker001:] Not, not, not the one? [Brennan:] Er, not if the [speaker001:] Not embraced in the one? [Brennan:] er, if the whole there in the sixth line refers back to the whole of being in the fourth line then it would be erm not the one but intellect. Erm but now another man erm wishing to exist or perhaps, but not a man wishing to be other erm approached them er and when he found us, for we were not outside the all [speaker001:] Not outside the all? [Brennan:] Mhm mhm, although I take it that we're in fact [speaker001:] What does he mean by the all? Not the one? In other words, is that another way of saying the one? [Brennan:] I don't think so because [speaker001:] What does he mean by the all then? [Brennan:] Could be again the level of intellect erm [speaker001:] Yes [Brennan:] erm because I, you might er [speaker001:] It's the interchangeableness of this, these words that makes it difficult to understand [Brennan:] Terribly difficult yeah, it's just, it's just miserable stuff erm to try to make sense of. Erm, another er, the translator makes the comment on this particular, that in no other is as casual about not distinguishing the three highest hypotheses. He doesn't really seem to be very careful about distinguishing intellect from the one and, and so forth, doesn't really, he's not, he's not really focusing on that difference and so seems to let it lapse in a less than useful way. Erm [speaker001:] He says, he woun he wound himself round us, now who's he referring to he? [Brennan:] It's this other man apparently. Erm [speaker001:] the intellectual man, the intellectual, we're talking about, we're not talking about a man in body, we're talking about intellect? [Brennan:] Yeah, although the one who, who wraps himself around might be a bodily man. Do come in. Erm erm yes it's just a desperately difficult passage. Yeah, no, no it's tough stuff. Yes indeed.

[Michael:] Well good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. Before we start the presentation I'd mention there will be hard copies of the slides available, the video is for internal use only and there should be plenty of time for questions at the end. Six months ago we reported interim results, [clears throat] fifty eight percent down on the previous year but held out hope for a stronger performance in the second half, in the event our os optimism was justified. And in the second half when we always make the bulk of our profits, we fought back and our second pre-tax er, er performance, exceeded by some five million er, that of nineteen ninety. This wasn't sufficient to make up the ground lost in the first half and the outcome for the year as a whole, you now see. I'd like to draw your attention to a couple of points on this slide. First, the high earnings per share after extraordinary items, which is increasingly relevant to the proposed new accounting standards and secondly, [clears throat] that we're recommending a maintained dividend which we can prudently do, bearing in mind [clears throat] our reasonable dividend cover and low net debt. We now come to the breakdown of trading profit by sector. Profits er, from oil services were well and educational publishing in the U S er, put in a very strong performance. Frank will be going into more detail on these and our other businesses, which are all facing an uphill struggle, particularly in the U K and North America, both in deep recession and which you can see continue to make up the bulk of our markets. I'd add that at the moment we do not see any upturn in any of our major markets. Before handing over to Frank, I'd like to emphasise some of the key points of nineteen ninety one. Yes, we did have a strong profits recovery in the second half, greatly helped by oil services and U S educational publishing. We had a strong improvement in operating cash generation and that and the sale of brought net debt down to a low level. B Sky B is now profitable of trading level, we increased our stake in it during the year from eleven percent to sixteen percent. Frank became the new chairman and we believe that in due course, it's gonna generate substantial profits. Finally, I'd like to mention that we shall be recommending for shareholders a one for one scrip issue. This isn't intended as any particular message, but we are now one of the weightiest shares in the F T S E index and be we believe that it should improve the market liquidity of the shares. Now, Frank. [Frank:] Good morning everyone. I think when we talked to you er, when we presented the interims er, we talked about the action we would be taking given the difficult circumstances and er, if I could just remind you. We said we'd be going for cost space reductions. Well, we've done that, as we said we would and of course, in a business such as Pearson, which is a people business er, although we regularly monitor employment statistics, such as total employ total number of employees er, revenue per employee, cost per employee, profit per employee, there are times when we have to take er, difficult decisions and er, so we've gone in for a lot of redundancy, which we'll see in, in er during the next slide or two. But not just redundancy, we've taken initiatives in lots of other areas, we'll show you those as well. On capital spending we tended to concentrate on that spending which would show a return on the investment and if we could we've postponed er, maintenance spending erm, renewal of cars and that kind of thing. All of our Chief Executives accept er, cash generation targets erm, either cash generation or ratio of working capital to er, to sales and that kind of thing and erm, as well as er, profit to turn over issues and that's er, stood us in good stead this year. And we've been saying to Chief Executives, if you can't get the profit or you can't get the sales, well at least concentrate on trying to, trying to get the cash, get the debtors in, that kind of thing. And we think that's er, er, gone well too. And of course, we've tried to reinforce our market positions and I think we've succeeded in er, in virtually all of our businesses. Er, now if we look at the er, staff reduction by sector. Again, when I spoke to you during the interims, I was expecting redundancies during the year of, of er, about a thousand. In the event we've achieved fourteen hundred, nearly fourteen hundred, and that follows on the six hundred redundancies we had last year. Er, and as well as the erm, staff reduction initiatives er, staff reduction initiatives that this showed you the savings er, in the year. Most of the savings of course coming next year, a small saving this year. As well as that, we managed to restrict the pay round for the whole of Pearson in the U K to four percent. Going to other cost saving initiatives erm, in the newspapers we've, we made lots of savings in newsprint. This was usually negotiating better discounts, in some of our production centres reducing the web width, which of course saves newsprint and in many areas er, in the regional newspapers reducing the distribution of our freeze in areas where we thought it er, it wouldn't affect, it wouldn't have affected the performance of the title. Er, on the book side we've managed er, considerable reductions in freight costs, warehousing and printing. In entertainment I'd think the reduc cost reductions there were pretty well, er restricted to good housekeeping, but from fine china er, we managed to transfer the, the er, work in the Minton factory to the Knowle Street factory and that allowed us to close the Minton factory and quite apart from the redundancies that entailed, we saved something like two hundred and fifty thousand er, non staff related overhead. Er, group wide, in the U S A, the er, New York headquarters staff under David 's direction achieved a very worthwhile er, reduction in telecoms, two million a year and this was by er, aggregating our telecoms erm, business and negotiating an er, one contract. And they've just about completed a second one on freight which will save two million dollars a year. And we're looking to, to do similar transactions in the U K, but of course with the lack of, or the reduced competition in the U K we, we may not do quite as well. Er, on capital ex expenditure er, most of the capital you see there was erm, investment which will show a return er, on investment. Er, the big items were Brighton where we're spending ten, eleven millions er, with the new press and the new building, which is pretty well completed er, it very shortly will be on-stream. Erm, the oil company continue to invest in capital expenditure, as it should do and er, most of that is spent between services, drilling and, and radar and at, Tussauds we continue to invest er, Alton Towers has got er, the Ghost House opening today and the Runaway Train and we were finishing off the Marylebone Road project, which is a very big, big project involving er,re the complete refurbishment er, new shops and a view right there in the basement. And so the er, the reward for our firm grip on costs and the concentration on cash is a favourable swing of, of forty seven er, million pounds in the full year and there should be more to come because now we're at the end of our er, capital spend on newspapers er, the newspapers will of course, become very substantial cash generators. We look at the er, profit of the newspapers individually. Of course it was a very, very difficult year for the Financial Times. Ad sales were down fourteen percent er, but we er, we increased our market share and in fact our market share was the best since nineteen eighty six er, when the F T was the market leader. Circulation was down four percent, but overseas we increased our circulation by five percent and again in the U K in, in newspaper sales we held our market share. Er, Profile did very well, increasing sales by twelve percent last year and following the deal with Texline er, sales moving well ahead again this year. Er, Les Echo had problems on the medical side, partly government regulation, partly the market and we've reorganized er, two medical divisions into one and that should give us er, give us some cost saving there. The newspaper circulation was up three percent to a new record at one hundred and twelve thousand, seven hundred and that was a very good performance. Ad volume was down erm, but not as much as in the U K. [speaker003:] [cough] [Frank:] The economists had a tremendous year erm, really bucking the trend and contributing about five million pounds to er, F T's er, associates profits. The circulation was a new record and four hundred and eighty five thousand, nine hundred by year end and it just seems to go from strength to strength. Er, we swopped our sharing expense on the er,Sp Spanish financial daily er, with cash for a twenty five percent stake in the Group and er, one of the things this er, does is to give us a stake in, in Marca, which is the second biggest newspaper in Spain and incidentally has the same social and economic profile as El, The Times of Spain er, and it's a sport paper which sells seven days a week, two hundred and thirty four thousand circulation and its nearer, nearest competitor sells one fifty thousand. It's a very big cash generator for the very high cover price and that should benefit from this year's Olympics. Expansion itself went up erm, circulation by twenty three er, percent last year and ad sales were up fourteen percent. Westminster Press had a very difficult year. Ad volume was down er, three point four percent overall. Nearly all of that was in classifieds where erm, the volume was down about er, eleven point eight, nearly twelve percent and er, revenue down by eight point three percent. Situations vacant in particular showed a very, a very big drop and erm, and in fact we, the yield was lower than the year before, but we've er, continued with our pac press rationalization programme and er, I think as I mentioned at the interims, the Basildon Evening Echo is now printed on the F T's presses, which incidentally has got the contract to and is printing er,. Erm, but W P continued to er, hang on to its market leadership in virtually every centre and erm, despite the difficult year managed to launch er, several new titles. Er, if we turn to the revenue split I think this underscores the recession er, and you'll notice that there's a much lesher lesser proportion of revenue coming from advertising. Er, they're overall figures, but for instance the F T, which er, the year before seventy five percent of its revenue came from advertising and er in, in ninety one it was down to seventy percent. If we go on to books erm, I think that Longman performance is exceptionally good erm, of course for book business it's very much first half, second half, most of the profit coming in second half, but er, erm, Longman only dropping seven percent on the year before seems to me a particularly good performance given the environment and in fact it generated more operating cash flow than the year before. It did very well with English Language Teaching sales er, in Europe and Asia as planned and its medical and professional sponsored adver erm, business in, in Japan grew much quicker than we expected. But education in the U K and Canada was very, very tough indeed. Pitman, which is the U K leading er, business book publisher increased sales by sixteen percent and Alhambra after the er, reorganization is doing rather well and the first book we've published on the new Spanish educational curriculum is forty percent ahead of er, budget. Ali Addison Wesley was er, one of our stars this year. Er, a fourth year of record profits, record er, sales, record margin, with the schools business thirty seven percent ahead of the previous year with our successful maths programme, aided and abetted by er, the business that produces the manipulatives to go with the maths programme. The college market in the U S A was the weakest for decades, but our college sales were up ten percent. Internationally we're up thirteen percent and in the Europe and, Europe and Pacific twenty percent. And on the er, general book front, the erm, Iron John was on the New York Times best sellers list for fifty one weeks and twelve of those at number one. I'll deal with Penguin separately. Federal and Capital we er, is, is a small business er, but highly profitable and er, it's a subscription business so that the cash comes in advance and er, the er, the only criticism I have of Federal and Capital is that it's, it, it, it, it would be nice if it was five times bigger than it is. But we're working on that. Looking at Penguin er, it was a very difficult year but the profit you see was erm, is after providing for the losses up to the date we disposed of Smith Mark and also making further provision on, on er, leases when we moved out of the other buildings, centralized the editorial and er, administrative functions into one office and, and but for that you would see that the er, the Penguin profit would have moved ahead from the year before. Erm, some of you are very critical of, of, of the Penguin operation when you were in the U S A but I have to tell you, they did achieve record sales there last year and increased market share and in fact the children's er, book publishing was twenty percent ahead of the year before. In the U K the improvement plans we've been working on for the last two years have been very successfully implemented but they've been overtaken by the U K recession. In the U S A we've appointed John President and so we've got the structure that we wanted, with Peter as, as Chairman at the top and concentrating on er, on publishing as he ought to, one of the great publishers of the world, dealing with the authors, dealing with the agents and dealing with the editorial staff. With a Managing Director in U K, Trevor and a Managing Director, President in the U S A, John and er, John had a very good start and we're sure this will be an improved er, stretcher from our business. Turning to, turning to entertainment and media investments er, it was a very tough year for the Tussaud group and starting with the er, Gulf War er, and erm, the only Tussaud business that, that does a lot of business in the first quarter is erm, Marylebone Road and you may remember that the Gulf War caused foreign tourists to stop coming to London and er, also erm, British tourists stopped coming to London and during that time attendances were actually twenty five percent down, so the recovery from there is, has been very good. Our highlight was the opening of Scenerama, our Dutch exhibition which opened in mid year and that's well ahead of budget and by year end we'd had six hundred thousand admissions through the turnstiles. Alton er, did well er, to restrict attendances to a five percent drop. I should remind you, of course, that we have the usual three million black hole Alton this year, the first quarter. At Chessington attendances pretty well stood still, again a very good performance in my view and er, justification for the capital spending that's gone on in recent years to bring that er, to bring Chessington to where we want it to be. Warwick too had a very good performance and er, and maintained its er, attendances. Er, turning to the media investments, well we all tend to think that the er, the bids tended to be on the high side but er, at least Yorkshire got the licence for the next ten years and they have the option in ninety eight to go for a further ten years and I can tell you er, because I've had er, lots of conversations with Clive that they're really working on, on making the best improving their returns from that franchise and I'm quite sure they'll succeed. Pickwick as you know we sold er, during the year, or sorry when the year ended, this year. Turning to er, Camco, our old services campaign, again that er, I think that was a very, very good performance er, sales were ahead of last year, trading profit ahead of last year and they even proved, improved the margin very, very slightly and that's our second star of the year. Erm, Products and Services did very well internationally, in fact the entire business did well internationally, generally, particularly in Venezuela, Nigeria and by year end the er, joint venture in Russia was er, was complete and ready to start. We also did a very important er, technology transfer to Czechoslovakia, which er, unsubmersible pump neck technology and that's tended to, to erm, hide a slight delcl er decline in the last quarter of the year, normally in oil most of the profit or more of the profit comes in the second half than the first, but with the Gulf War last year oil prices were pretty firm and er, so we've made er, quite reasonable profits in the, in the er, first half and so too in the second half, but in the last quarter they've been showed up by that technology er, transfer and the er, U S oil price is er, is, is er stag the U K's is stagnant, the U S is stagnant in oil and the gas prices are very, very far down, they're well down. Turning to investment banking and I should just remind you that er, we take fifty percent of Brothers' profits and ten percent of New York and Paris and given the conditions, given the environment last year, I don't think need be ashamed of the performance er, although in London the only business to really come in, come in with impressive returns was er, asset trading money, broking and banking. There was erm, a great reduction in corporate activity but corporate finance kept very busy er, with their value services and money raising and er, we were responsible for the National Power flotation and the disposal of Gratton. In Paris er, were top of the M & A league but the volume was well down on the record nineteen ninety. New York too did well, advising on thirty seven acquisitions er, thirty seven transactions, including acquisition of Tonka and acquisition of the Max Factor division of Revlon. On fine china erm, although profits were down, Royal Doulton did manage a margin of eight point five percent and here again improved the cash flow on nineteen ninety. And they continued to develop their distribution and retail network and now over half of our sales are overseas and er, we developed our direct mail and our chain store business er, even though demand was down. In fact we made most of our profits or a lot of our profits last year by erm, sheer volume and, and, and a decline in yield. Erm, a bigger sale of the smaller price it of the lesser priced items. I mentioned earlier that we closed the erm, Royal Minton factory and four other factories are on short time, but we continued to invest in operation efficiency to improve our competitive position and er, now over to er, to James. James. [James:] Good morning everyone. Well as you can see from what Frank said, the six main sectors overall didn't fare too badly, sixteen percent drop in aggregate at the trading level and in fact er, our other interest less expenses were actually ended on eleven percent because we had a million pounds more profit from Lakeside when we sold the Tesco's site. However, the damage was done at the discontinued line which simply reflects the fact that we had er, Elserver in for two and a half months in nineteen ninety one, as opposed to twelve months the year before. So trading profits down twenty four percent and although the interest charge was down er, quite sharply, largely, of course, as a reduction in net depth through the Elserver sale, profits before tax ended up as you heard before, twenty three percent lower. If we go from that to the earnings, there's another erm, er, slide to take us through that. I think the most interesting point here is the tax charge which is two percentage points down on the year before and that really is prior year adjustments, there are other pluses and minuses but that's a significant reason. Extraordinary profits, you may be surprised to see are only twelve point nine million after the Elserver sale but that is a function of the write back of good will on the disposal of Elserver which you will see explained in the preliminary statement, thus reducing the er, profit from two hundred and twenty nine million, which was the estimate at the interim, to thirty five million for the year as a whole. We did that in the with the erm, urgent issues task force new standard on good will. We had to do it cos I'm a member of the task force. I mean I'd be sacked otherwise. So, earnings after extraordinaries up fifty four percent er, even so. Now, the profits, the profits you've seen where the profits came down, let's look at it another way and that is really to see er, the impact per the year before. Fifty three million down in profits overall. Foreign exchange worked to our advantage this year, the dollar was at one seventy two on average. Er, we had, obviously, no help from acquisitions because of the Elserver effect less interest. Our exceptional items were rather heavier in nineteen ninety one, you won't be surprised after what you heard from Frank about the er, number reductions. We had redundancy cost, we had lease provision and one or two other items. So, the underlying performance, in fact, accounted for only forty million out of the fifty three million reduction in profits. Now, again, we need to distribute the underlying performance because it wasn't equally distributed between the various sectors. Now, clearly the two major er, baddies there were the newspapers and investment banking and that reflects their operational gearing and the sharp decline in revenue you are well aware of. The two pluses are books, thanks largely to Addison Wesley, thankfully decisively so and the oil services business and the only other item worth reflecting, I think worth er, remarking on, is in fact that if you take out the black hole effect er, the entertainment fall was only two million and I think that is a creditable performance. So, if we now leave profits and go to cash. Er, the cash flow is slightly crowded and to we've split it into two slides. You can see er, at the top, of course the profits were down but nonetheless er, I think quite encouragingly, we have higher operational cash flow and I'll go into a little detail of that later. Er, a sharp fall in the interest, tax and dividends line led to the forty five million turnround at what we regard the crucial measure, net funds from operation. This tells you whether you're generating money for shareholders or where they consume you. If we look at the next slide, you'll then see er, the change from net funds from operations, plus eighteen million, down to the various large reduction in borrowings, you're already aware of and, of course, the erm, disposals less acquisitions as it should read for ninety one er, stands out there. We spent only really modest amounts, apart from there was a small further investment in B Sky B, nothing else worth recording. So, turnround in a net debt of three hundred and twenty million and I think we will look again now at the net funds from operation and look at the analysis a little further. Trading profit less potential was only down twenty five million because, of course, a good slice of the reduction in trading profits came from er, associates, mainly Elserver which is rather niggly in distributions. The working capital outflow was controlled and was only er, sixteen million more working capital, which is considerably better than the year before and then finally you had the er, improvement in the capital expenditure. Capital expenditure less depreciation is eighteen million better, that's of course a function of two er, elements. The reduction in the and the persistent rise the depreciation charge, which is going over the last four years as we maintain a high level of capital spending. Improvement in operating cash flow was then compounded by er, the financing line and that really is overwhelmingly er, a reduction in tax paid, function of the lower profits than previous years and of course, the impact of consortium relief in B Sky B. Net change, forty five million pounds and that we regard as one of the most satisfying outcomes for the year. Now Elserver also impacted, of course, materially on the balance sheet as the next slide will show us. Curiously, net trading assets are virtually unchanged between the two years. This is obviously a coincidence, since it's a function of so many different things including exchange effects. However, the balance between debt and equity is remarkably changed. You'll have the sharp improvement in shareholders' funds resulting from the write back of good will on the Elserver disposal and the consequent reduction in net borrowings, from four hundred and five to a hundred and eighteen million. Now, net debt of the hundred and eighteen million is of course, er, a balance of two items. We have our debt itself, the gross debt, which came down about a hundred and twenty million and that is all set by a substantially increased cash balance. The cash is overwhelmingly held in sterling. We need a hundred million of it to er, pay back Coupon Bond that matures in May and by the same reason, the final column shows that the balance of our debt between fixed and floating er, will change, other things being equal on the pro-forma basis. At the moment or at the year end of our variable debt, commercial paper in the United States, a very cheap form of debt, formed the overwhelming proportion. Our fixed debt is accounted for by our quoted sterling bonds and er, the balance of a medium tone note programme which we have outstanding in the United States. On the pro-forma basis, our hopes, which of course not yet been born out, that interest rates will be declining er, will give us some advantage by the year end, as a number of caps and swabs which we put in place during nineteen ninety one, unwind. Now, balance sheet with the lower debt and promising cash flow, of course, impacts on financial ratios and I think that this is the best measure of how we come through nineteen ninety one rather than the profits. The dividend cover is not wonderful but it's perfectly adequaly adequate as Michael said at the beginning. Interest cover was already strong and is now at nearly ten times patently er, a very healthy level and whether or not you add back the good will on other er, acquisitions, I dare say the ratio is at a very low level indeed. Clearly, we have plenty of powder and it's dry. Thank you. [Frank:] Er, we are going to be joined er, for questions by David, who is er, the Chairman of Camco and the u the Pearson Executive Director, resident in the U S. Michael, who is er, C E O group and Hugh who is C E O of Westminster press er, financial newspapers. When you er, ask a question first time could you, could you say your name and the organization that you represent. Could I have the first question please? [Mark:] It's Mark from the Daily Telegraph. Can I just ask you if your position on the Daily Mirror is still that you're not at all interested in it, or is there a prospect that you may change your mind when you've seen the figures from the Mirror? [Michael:] Er, we had a good look at, at the figures, although they weren't totally finalized we had a pretty good understanding of the situation and I think it is highly unlikely that we would er, seek to re-open any negotiations. [Jason:] Er, Jason from the Independent. Just a supplementary on that. This er, your comment that you had a good look at the figures, severely confused the merchant bankers who are advising the Mirror group as they, they didn't feel that they'd finalized the figures themselves. So, did you have a, a mole inside the Mirror Group? [Michael:] Er, James would you like to answer that question? [James:] Well, I'm not a mole. No, I think that we had a fairly clear idea, certainly on the pension fund, we've not obviously got accurate numbers, a clear idea of the broad er, shape of, of the problems and erm, that allowed us, without having to wait for very accurate figures, to draw the conclusions about the scale of the problem, the amount of investment we'd like to, we need to make and thus erm, whether or not it was of interest to pursue. You didn't need to have a, a long form report in front of you I think, to draw the conclusion. [Richard:] Er, Richard from the Scotsman. Can I just ask you to be slightly more specific on your first answer. Does that mean you're not actually interested in any parts of the Mirror Group? I refer particularly also to the, the Daily Record and the Sunday Mail in Scotland. [Michael:] Er, I'll be more, I'll be clearer. Er, we are not interested in any parts of the Mirror Group. [Raymond:] Er, Raymond, Financial Times. Companies with as strong a balance sheet as yours have been known to seek acquisitions er, in the midst of a very deep recession. Why have you not done so? [Michael:] Er, there are a couple of factors there. One is that we do make acquisitions, we on, on the whole er, prefer er, organic growth because it is normally more profitable and the prices you have to pay for acquisitions er, tend to put significant premiums on the companies you buy which you may er, in the longer run eventually erm, er, turn into shareholder value. But er, any acquisition has to fit extremely well strategically and it has to be at a price that we consider to be a, a, a good price. Now, so far er, the acquisitions that have come onto the market haven't really reflected er, the trading conditions in which all companies in this country have been operating for the last eighteen months. In oth other words, there haven't been particularly good value acquisitions that are strategically suitable for us. It doesn't mean to say that we are not on the, alert and on the look out and er, I think those opportunities erm, er, will still occur and that er, we will be involved. Now, there's one other element that's worth mentioning. Erm, it is perhaps only in the last er, six months or so that the erm, turnaround in the fortunes of erm, er, B Sky B have been acknowledged and er, I think there has been an element in our thinking that we wanted to keep our dry er, until such time as er, B Sky B which we have great belief and faith in and our, as you know we increased our investment during the year erm, sees its way through to profitability and I'm happy to say that that's happening now at a reab reasonable rate and that that means that it is highly unlikely that the hundred and thirty million of guarantees that we still have outstanding to B Sky B are likely to be called. So, we're in a pretty strong position to make acquisitions if they appear at the right price and they fit our strategic framework. Sorry, that was rather a long answer. Yes Sir? [William:] William, Daily Mail. Erm, you, a lot of people now talk as though it's erm, plain sailing or flying for B Sky B and it's gonna be er, hunky-dory, whereas Anglia Television have just written their stake down to a prenominal amount because they don't think it's gonna make, stand a chance of making a profit before the turn of the millennium. Do you think they're being too gloomy and do you think certain other people are being too euphoric? [Michael:] I think that the reasons people have written down their erm, er, holdings in B, B Sky B have varied. Er, sometimes it's for tax reasons, sometimes it's for er, for, for, for erm, er, reasons such as last year when er, we wrote down our, our stake by some seventy one million erm, it was because at that point the financing for B Sky B was not yet er, at all clear because the shareholders had been unable to agree at that point erm, that they would guarantee the two hundred or so million that er, needed to go in before the er, project became successful and so there was a genuine doubt on the financing. Er, I don't know if James again, you might like to comment. We'll keep Frank in reserve, he's a Chairman at B Sky B. [James:] Er, I think er, Frank will correct me if we're closer to the, to the sharp edge than Anglia, who have got a very small stake and only in the equity of B S B H, are coming very low in the pecking order to get their money, whereas er, where there is a whole complex er, schedule of who will participate in the er, substantial cash flow that we expect to emanate from B Sky B in due course, but I think that's the main reason why Anglia, I haven't talked to David. Frank, do you talk? [Frank:] Well, I mean it's, it's definitely tax driven. I mean erm, Anglia talked er, talked to me anyway as Chairman of B Sky B erm, before they, before they did the write off and it's, it's just tax driven. [speaker003:] So you're right at the head of the pecking order? [Frank:] Pardon? [speaker003:] You're right at the head of the pecking order, when the cash generation starts you'll be first in line? [Frank:] Er, we will, but the pecking order er, the pecking order is the subject of agreement and it's public. Er, but I mean clearly the, the debt and the guarantees are paid down first and so for the reason we are high up in the pecking order, because we provided the er, the loans and the guarantees. [James:] Yes? [speaker003:] Following that up when, when can your long suffering shareholders er, expect to see any return on the B Sky B stake and a follow up on that? Now, you've got sixteen percent and you're the Chairman when shouldn't you equity account it? [Frank:] Well, I'm not certain our shareholders are long suffering. Erm, in fact I think the turnaround has er, has been remarkably quick and remember, we saved our shareholders from having to write the lot off. So I wouldn't accept your description justified. [speaker003:] Mick. [Frank:] Mm. [speaker003:] Take issue beyond that. [Frank:] Sorry, what was the second part of the question? [speaker003:] Well, the first part of the question was when, when will they start seeing a return back on that money and secondly, when shouldn't you equity account it? [Frank:] Well, er, equity accounting, James is better placed to answer that question than me. Erm, I'd be very surprised if, if cash, if, if B Sky B doesn't start to trade at a profit overall in erm, in the second half of ninety three. And, and thereafter cash can flow out because the first thing that flows out are loans and guarantees. So we're, we're quite close to getting cash back from B Sky B. [speaker003:] Sorry, can I get it absolutely clear. I didn't fully understand that. Are you actually saying er, money will actually be raised in addition to the financing charges in the second half of ninety three? [Frank:] No, no, I'm talking about profit from the, from the business. Money from the business. [speaker003:] Just to clear another point up. Last autumn it was stated in a document that there would have to be further subscriptions of finance before er, the project became profitable. Are you now saying that's no longer necessary? [James:] That is the two hundred million that I was referring to er, earlier, wasn't in place at the time that we made our write there. [speaker003:] So, that was all the remark applied to? [James:] Well yes, but that, remember we provided for up to two hundred million which we thought would see us through to the end of ninety two. Now it looks as if not all of that will be called, but we can't be sure at this stage. But it looks as if it may not all be called. [speaker003:] Should I just comment on the assessing the equity accounting point. Er, the present situation is that there's complex erm, arrangements for the exercise of votes, basically unanimity is required and in those circumstances we as a shareholder cannot exercise material influence which is a necessary pre-condition for equity accounting. Ourselves. [Roger:] Roger from the Guardian. Erm, can we, er, two separate questions. One is going back to the issue of acquisitions erm, where are you most interested, both geographically and er, as far as your operation is concerned, where are you most interested in making acquisitions? Er, and a completely separate question now, entertainment er, could you just tell us a bit more about what's happening at Alton Towers and also how you think it's gonna be affected by EuroDisney? [speaker003:] Yes er, well I think we might, I'll answer the second question but we'll, we'll, we'll answer the first question but we'll ask Michael, who's right here to, to comment on entertainment. [Michael:] In fact today, this afternoon we're launching a whole new area at Alton Towers which is additional to anything before erm, Frank referred to it briefly, there's a Runaway, so called Runaway Train ride, there's a Ghost House and that's all part of a new complex, which we've got longer term plans to expand further. Er, that's costing something up to ten million pounds approximately. So, we have erm, underlying confidence in the long term future of Alton Towers, I think that's very important to state. As far as EuroDisney is concerned, I personally welcome its establishment in France. I think that it is going to have a good effect on improving trading for the better parks and attractions in this country and as you know I think, Alton Towers is the leading er, park of its kind in this country, Chessington which we also own is the second er, leading park, one and a half million visitors a year, Alton Towers approximately two million visitors a year in this country. Both offering excellent value for money. The point I think that has to be understood about EuroDisney, which perhaps hasn't been properly perceived yet by the public is that it is very much a destination for the British public. It is not a place you can just go to for the day and therefore you need to spend at least a couple of days getting there overnight, coming back again and er, for a family of four I calculate that even taking one's own car across the Channel, the average cost for a family of four, is of the order of five or six hundred pounds. I don't see how you can do it cheaper for that. Don't forget to get into Disney is twenty five pounds, which is more than double what we're charging at Alton Towers for example. Er, the comparable cost for a family of four in this country to go to somewhere like Alton Towers or to Chessington in your own car including the cost of petrol of getting there is of the order of fifty or sixty pounds at the outside. In other words, only ten percent of the total costs of going to Disney. Therefore, the one is a destination which you'll probably find you'd prefer to go to for a long weekend or perhaps a, part of your annual holiday etcetera, our parks are places you go to for a day out and I think therefore there is a very er, strong difference between the sort of visit and because I feel that EuroDisney which will undoubtedly will be good, it's a proven formula er, it's run well er, it appeals to a lot of people and therefore it will be I think er, successful, exactly how successful I obviously can't say, but it will be successful, it will certainly attract British visitors, but they'll come back, looking er, with certain higher expectation, a value for money, quality etcetera, etcetera. And we believe we already offer that, I think the figures indicate that and therefore in the medium and the longer term I believe that our attractions will undoubtedly benefit and I would finally say that if you er, go back and look at the history of Disney in America, after the establishment of Disney Parks in America there was a big improvement in extension of the amusement parks in the rest of America which er, the traditional theme parks, so called, in America grew in the period after the establishment of Disney Land in California and I think a similar sort of thing is going to happen, not perhaps just in this country er, but also in Europe generally. In certain locations there are clearly planning problems, environmental problems that sort of thing, in establishing parks but I believe er, and I know a lot other people in the leisure business believe that there will be a growth. But the ones that'll gain will be the quality ones offering the best value for money and as you know, Pearson believes in quality and certainly value for money and therefore I believe we will benefit from that. [speaker003:] Thank you Michael. On, on acquisitions, well running through the group, the best of banking er, er strategies to remain non capital intensive and strongly cash generative er, know, you know we've had a twenty million investment erm, A & A er, a Swiss er, house, we're extending our networks. We're not, er we're not the best thing about money and I wouldn't see that happening in the future. On fine china, we're already the largest fine china, fine bone china manufacturer in the world. We might make the odd selective acquisition but not vast amounts of money going on acquisitions there either. In oil... services, in the future there could be further major acquisitions but er, over the past three years we've er, undertaken a whole series of acquisitions and er, and for the moment I wouldn't see anything er, in the, in the major line there, although you never know if some, even sometimes opportunities you aren't capable of creating erm, er, because the er, situation is not right er, do occur and I wouldn't rule it out but erm, er, we haven't erm any major acquisition er, on, on, on the carpet there at the moment. Erm, on entertainment, we're spending a lot of money on organic growth and have done over the past two or three years and er, it's very well spent but again, we're growing our businesses, erm, er, rather than acquiring them. Alton Towers clearly is an exception but again, you have to pay a lot of money for it and it takes quite some time to get the return er, back and, and I would say that erm, many of Michael's erm, er, organic erm, er, expenditure will, will erm, provide er, a really good return rather quicker but in the long run we think Alton is good. Erm, now that leaves us with er, really the er, the publishing, the educational publishing er, the newspapers, magazines, electronic publishing, in all those areas we're active and on the lookout. We certainly, if you look at the breakdown of our sales er, we only sell about a hundred and fifty er, million pounds worth er, of goods and services in Asia, Pacific erm, we would certainly like to make acquisitions in that area just as we did in North America er, in the seventies and eighties and we have now small Pearson er, office, for instance in Tokyo, it's quite slow, erm, er, in that area but certainly we're on the lookout for acquisitions in, in Asia, Pacific. In all of those publishing areas that you've mentioned, newspapers, books, electronic Yes? Karen from News Australia. Would that include taking a stake in the er, the Fairfax float when erm, that takes place later this year? Erm, we, we, we really er, like to be in a position of control in any of the acquisitions er, that we make er, where we are associates rather than, than having a hundred percent or a least erm, over fifty. It is because for strategic reasons we've very want to make the investment, there's no other way of doing it. Erm, to cut a long story short, if a attractive Fairfax erm, individual enterprise came up, we would be far more interested than taking a stake that was a, just an investment. Er, the chances of it coming up seem to me highly unlikely. Clearly, if it did we'd be interested. Is your cost er, programme effectively complete er, or are we gonna be seeing more substantial redundancies this year? Well, we've got our cost reductions as an ongoing process er, so it's never complete, you're always looking for ways to, to become more efficient or effective but I don't anticipate any redundancies er, any further redundancies but obviously if, if, if systems become available which improve our efficiency and effectiveness we, we have to take account of it. What effect would a Labour government have on, in the U K, on Pearson's businesses? Well, there's been quite a lot of, of, of chat recently that, that erm, because of cross-media ownership erm, companies that are involved in cross-media ownership would have, have problems. I think that it is difficult to see under any clear complexion of government that our present holdings er, in newspapers, which are mainly the Financial Times which has a small erm, comparatively small circulation for a national newspaper and less than twenty percent in a television company would, would be affected by, by any government. Er, whether they, a different government would legislate erm, against people having more than a twenty percent stake in er, B Sky B for instance remains to be seen. It must be quite possible, which might mean that there will be some more shares er, available there but er, that is complete speculation. Erm, I don't think that er, in structural terms therefore a, a change of government would er, make a great deal, a difference, then you come to er, the general effect of a, a change of government er, I think at the moment we're living in a situation of uncertainty and er, a clear majority erm, for any party would probably from a business point of view erm, remove the uncertain short term. I think the view you take of the longer term, erm, er, becomes individual and speculative er, as once again you've got to erm, er, come to conclusions about inflation, about encouragement to the economy and er, you can read in many a good newspaper erm, their views on that. Thanks er, did the provision for er, properties like Penguin and four and a half million for the year, did all of that come in the second half, because it's noticeable that Penguin is ahead something like what, thirty two percent, second half on second half. So if that four and a half million was all incurred in the second half its underlying growth rate was something like sixty percent. Er, were there any sort of distortions there in the second half period? Well, Penguin always makes er, er, most of its profits in the second half but, but James would you like to answer. [James:] It's more in the second half. My colleague Mr who is closer to the ground reminds me that I think there was a small provision in the first half. But we then took a view about, about future years because in a sense we've always been, obviously had to provide for the er, year impression. Discretion now taking a much more realistic view about the New York property market which is, office market which is as lousy if not lousier than erm, than London and say that we ain't gonna relet these, we're not gonna sub-let these properties, let's take, let's take a hit, let's clean it out now. And that was, that element was in the second half. [speaker003:] Sorry, would there be any exceptional stock provisions that were released, made in the first half, released into the second half for example? So you talked about [James:] Penguin? [speaker003:] Yes, cos you talked about [James:] No, don't make no, no, no. That wouldn't be the case, no. [speaker003:] Are you er, going to have an extraordinary profit from the sale of the stake in Pickwick? [James:] Small loss. [speaker003:] Small loss. Er, Hugh, would you, you haven't had a chance to say anything. Would you like to er, make any comments on er, how a change of government might effect the Westminster Press? [Michael:] Well, I think it erm, very, I mean I think as you said Chairman, if erm, there's a clear majority for one party it'll unblock a whole lot of delay and decision making which I think is going on and I think that that should be helpful. I suppose the only problem is if there's er, gonna be another general election shortly after the one we're about to have, that'll just er, create a bit more uncertainty for a bit longer I'm afraid. [Frank:] Er right. Robert of Robert Fleming. I noticed one of the, the Sunday papers had a little bit of a dig on you on strategy over the weekend. Perhaps er, you'd just like to remind us erm, what your strategy is and no doubt how unfair you felt that comment was? [speaker003:] Well, our strategy is to be a concentrated conglomerate. In other words, sticking to those sectors that we know and understand and which we chose for the nineties because we believe they had good growth prospects. Er, we built on those sectors, during the er, past year with the initial uncertainty on the B Sky B situation er, we have been managing erm, our way through the recession, you've heard from Frank er, about the er, immediate short term measures we've taken. Er, but in the long run we're on the lookout to continue to build both organically and by acquisition where appropriate er, on, on the main sectors. And you've all heard the theme of quality which, which runs throughout our strategic picking. Sorry, Eric er, there was something put up there, beyond your at first. [James:] Yes,, James. Erm, James put a slide up about accept included a figure of erm, eight million for exceptionals. I wonder if you could just explain the consistent parts of that figure? [speaker003:] The eight million on exceptionals, James would you? [James:] That, that is the, the change in exceptionals compared with nineteen ninety. It isn't the total charge. And it comprises er, redundancy provisions er, costs on abortive er, acquisitions or erm, consulting projects er, lease provisions in Penguin and other odds and sods bluntly. I think we're talking at cross purposes. I think the slide that Frank was referring to was the total charge for the year. The eight million is the difference in the exceptional charge for ninety one compared with nineteen ninety. That was a various analysis. Er, Eric. [Mark:] Can I. You indicated that there's no sign of any er, improvement in your main markets er, but looking for er, optimistic er, calculations could you give us any indications of the er, the benefits of the er, non recurrence of the Gulf War in the first half? [speaker003:] Well, the non recurrence of Gulf War in the first half is pretty well balanced by the recession that is taking place at the moment and is er, showing as we all know, little signs of lifting. I think a change in the political, direct and when say it, I don't mean a change, I mean a, erm, the outcome of the solution erm, to, to, to the present uncertainty, I think er, will be greatly helpful er, once the election is over in the U K. Er, but it is, it's very, it's very early days er, as we all know. You showed us a slide with net savings for nineteen ninety two of twenty million. Can you actually just take us through those er on one of you slides you had a thing, net savings Er the net savings on redundancies of twenty million pounds?... Are they only redundancies or is it just a net saving? Oh, the net savings altogether. Frank will now take us through the, the net savings of twenty million on redundancies. You've done it once. [Frank:] Yeah. Well, the twenty million obviously just comes er, in prop well not in proportion because the salary levels differ but in proportion to the numbers er, made redundant in the individual companies. It's quite difficult to, to get at erm, the other, all the other costs because they're a myriad of tiny things. I mean the big ones erm, obviously are the erm, savings of the U S A on telecommunications and freight er, but then there's lots and lots of things, for instance, the one I mentioned at Minton, two hundred and fifty thousand and so in all of our businesses, you know those, many, many small items. [speaker003:] Is this a combination of the impact of the redundancies plus all these other, not just redundancies? Yes. Can I pick up on your comment, you do not see any upturn in any of your major markets. Advertising revenue seems to be, there seems to be sometimes that there is some slight pick up, the advertising associations predicting a pick up there, one or two companies who have been reporting, have been talking about a little upturn in the first quarter of this year. Did, you don't see any. Does that mean that they are wrong, or you're losing market share? [James:] Er, it doesn't mean that we're wrong, there are some categories of advertising er, that are showing slight signs and others that are not. Er, Frank would you like to comment? [Frank:] I'd, actually I think the problem is that you get the odd week er, and even the odd month, where things look better erm, but, but overall, then it slips again and er, overall erm, the end of February, there's no sign that, that volume is increasing from the previous year. Erm, and that's in the F T and that's in W P and the odd category will move. And, I talked to other publishers erm, including a very large one which will be nameless and they have a pretty good spread and their experience was the same as ours. So erm, I don't think there's any signs of advertising here. And on the, on the, on the television front again erm, there isn't a great deal on the television front and there's quite a bit of manipulation going on but erm, there isn't a great deal, deal of upturn. B Sky B is ahead of last year but I mean that's a growing business, you would expect it to be. No, no, advertising is, is still down. It's still, it's been, in the first two months it's been going down on last year in volume terms. [James:] We have Hugh here er, Hugh, any sign of us losing market share? [Michael:] No sign of our newspapers losing market share, no. I think the, I mean the, the huge drop that we had in situations vacant advertising in ninety, nineteen ninety one, when we fell from, I mean our job advertising was about twenty million pounds in nineteen ninety and was down to about eleven million in ninety one. But erm, the position at the moment is that, I mean, the situation doesn't seem to be getting any worse. Erm, and there are, there are some signs of erm, odd categories of advertising being slightly up but they are need to be counter balanced by others which are down too. It's really very hard to detect any trend. [speaker003:] Your share price seemed to take a bit of a knock the other day when Roy made some comments about referring media conglomerates to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Firstly, would you see any problem with that under a led government directly and secondly if Rupert were forced to sell off either some of his stake in B Sky B or some of his newspaper interests er, what would be your attitude to er, buying? [James:] Er, I don't think that er, we would be likely to have a, a problem in selling down. We only have sixteen percent of B Sky B and we have one national newspaper, the Financial Times, which, although influential, is relatively small circulation. I don't see erm, a government of any complexion being likely to insist er, on our going down er, below twenty percent er, in television. So, I don't, I don't personally see that as a direct threat at all and I think that also our, our er, our newspapers don't have any particular political bias of any sort, I think they treat each issue on its merits. So, I don't see from Pearson's point of view that, that a government of any complexion will alter what we can and er, or can't do in relation to our current er, holdings. Er, if any shareholder in B Sky B er, was selling shares, we would obviously consider er, whether we went up from our present sixteen percent er, to twenty percent but it would depend on the circumstances at the time. [Jason:] Derek. Could you comment briefly on Addison Wesley and the pattern of the, the major programmes in that business and er, what the outlook is for the current year. [James:] The pattern of trading at Addison Wesley and, and the prospects for the current year er, Frank. [Frank:] Well, the prospects for the er, current year are still good. Erm, I mean I really can't, I don't expect them to surge ahead as they did last year but all the signs are that, that, they're doing very well and er, it's a very well managed business erm, great cost control er, I don't know whether you noticed recently that Meryl des described the erm, the management of erm, of A W as the er, I think it was the creme de la creme of the... [James:] Class act of the industry. [Frank:] class act of the industry. So it's a very well managed business. The pattern is very much first half er, erm, loss or small profit, second half all the profit and in fact you should watch out for the bigger, the bigger Addison Wesley gets, the more the loss in the second half will be because we're investing for that sale... [James:] In the first half.... [Frank:] in the first half. They're investing in the first half in that second half. So, the chances are it will exaggerate more than anything else. Er, and we have a very strong college front list er, which we would hope would er, would make a contribution again this year, more of a contribution. [James:] Er, David, resident in America. Would you like to make any general comments on the U S? [Richard:] On the U S as a whole or on... [James:] Well, in relation perhaps to, to Addison Wesley. [Richard:] Well, I think that the erm, the, as Frank has said, they, they have a strong college list for this year, the school business should be they can't repeat the maths programme success of last year although there is follow up business in other states. So, there's strong underpinnings with what they've got and they are in the right areas of the market. [speaker003:] Erm, could I ask er, a little about er, Longman and er, and er, Penguin in nineteen ninety two and particularly in the case of Longman, is the momentum of profits improvement in the second half carrying, carrying through into nineteen ninety two? [Frank:] Longman and Penguin in, in ninety two. Er, what, what do we say about that? [speaker003:] Longman have made a very good start to the year and erm, and so they've progressed from day one, making last year I expect to continue. Erm, and Penguin U S again have er, made a good start and the one area, David can talk about this better than I, but the one area that er, where there is an upturning in business activity and mo promise have come into the U S A. So, you know, we expect erm, Penguin and A W er, Penguin U S certainly to go on and Longman to carry on as they are, improving. David, do you want to say anything about the U S? [Richard:] No, I think erm, in the, certainly in the consumer area which affects both Penguin and to some extent Royal Doulton, there are definite signs now of the U S economy turning around and that is likely to continue as, as the year goes on. And certainly, trade book publishing did not do at all badly in nineteen ninety one in a recessionary environment and erm, there are, as Frank has mentioned particularly within Penguin, quite a lot of internal restructuring has gone on and one would hope that margins would improve over the next few years as a result of that. [speaker003:] While we're on the U S, could you say on the oil services er, how much of the er, good performances do you pumps turning round and again what are the prospects of that division for the current year? [James:] Well erm, can everybody hear the questions or is it bet helpful to repeat? It is helpful to repeat. Er, to what extent er, was the er, was the performance of, of Camco erm, er dependent on a good performance from? [speaker003:] Well, I'd like to qualify your question if I may put words into your mouth. I think in fact er, had been doing quite well and the specific point that Frank was referring to was erm, the technology transfer that they did with a mar large chip manufacturer, which probably made a contribution in the second half, a net contribution of about five million dollars and that offset some of the weakness in, in other parts of Camco's business in the last quarter of the year. And that er, technology transfer covers submersible pump technology which will be the standard pump line and the Czechs will have a non exclusive erm,li er licence to sell it in the Soviet Union which is a prime market er, and in other areas behind the old iron curtain. And that's an arrangement which will be carrying on over the next few years. Could you tell us please, how much we spent on Ghost House and Runaway Train and what you expect it to bring in, in rewards this year? [James:] How much we spent on Ghost House and Runaway Train er, and how much er, profit we'll bring in this year. Er, Michael. [Michael:] The erm, total figure will end up, it isn't all completely spent yet, but it'll end up er, something between eight and ten million pounds. It's impossible to judge exactly how many people will come in as a result of that and er, how much expenditure will be incurred because as you know we're in a recessionary period and as you've already heard there is concern about current trading, but I would hope that it would bring in er, something like a hundred and fifty thousand extra people, certainly in a good year I'd expect more than that but really that's about as much as I'm prepared to say with some additional spending which will be incurred at Alton Towers. But obviously in a recessionary period, which we are certainly not out of yet, you have to remember that Alton Towers has a per cap of something like fourteen pounds a head at the moment, er, average of all people. And therefore in a recessionary period when pressure is on people spending er, that sort of figure is under tremendous pressure. [speaker003:] Erm, a comment on B Sky B and contribution. I mean, will there be any contribution by way of guar loan guarantees over the forecast, over the next two forecast years or, I mean my understanding was that there was a guarantee fee that, that erm, was still owed this year. [James:] B Sky B and its contribution erm, to Pearson. Frank. [Frank:] Well, I mean, we don't, we don't intend to equity account B Sky B for the present time anyway. Er, obviously the guarantee fees are a contractual obligation of B Sky B and er, so we er, we, Pearson are entitled to those and I mean, obviously as, as B Sky B becomes cash generative and erm, then cash will flow into Pearson and I th you know the schedule erm, and in that, in that way. [speaker003:] James, would you... James just said that we haven't taken any guarantee fees into this year's profit er, nor any interest on, on loan stocks. That's something that we obviously would consider next, this time next year in the light of, of the performance and prospects and clearly on advice from, from those on the board. But, but as the business continues to do, do better, as they're already doing rather well er, that becomes an issue. Two completely different questions. Can you just tell us what you've done to your entrance pricing for your various entertainment centres and also can you tell us why the Canadian profit's almost doubled in the year? I couldn't hear the second question myself. Your erm, on your allocation of geographical profits er, Canada's profits have almost doubled in the year. [James:] Two totally separate questions, the first relating to entrance pricing at our entertainment businesses and we'll deal with that first. Michael. [Michael:] The erm, entrance price increases generally have been in line or slightly above inflation. We normally aim and have achieved very successfully in recent years real price increases above inflation. Last year, you'll remember, we had to absorb, in fact in the Tussauds group, about three quarters of a million er, pounds on the increase in V A T and that was a blow to us at the beginning of the season, you remember it was the budget more or less this time last year. Er, this year hopefully er, with pressure, again as I said earlier but nevertheless we are hoping and having er, put in our new price increases for the season which is more or less beginning now. I hope everybody understands er, Alton Towers is launching its new things today, Chessington opened this weekend, so we haven't been trading until this weekend in effect in our parks business. London, of course, and our Amsterdam exhibition has been trading since the beginning of the year and the price increase is generally coming at the beginning of the season, which is more or less now for the parks, earlier for the exhibitions. [Frank:] And the separate question related to trading profits erm, in Canada. Why have they gone from eight million to fifteen million. Er, James. [James:] The er, combination of things. First of all, during the course of the year our holding in the Canadian Financial Post reduced, therefore we took in less losses from that business. Secondly, Penguin Canada returned the profits. Thirdly, both Camco and Addison Wesley had very good years in that territory. [Frank:] Further questions? [speaker003:] Sorry, can I ask another one? Er, on your erm, West Thurrock er, receipt and profits, I think this is the last er, the last year erm, can you give us an indication of er, thought that you might have of filling the hole er, in nineteen ninety three when you cease to? [Mark:] Er, the major contribution from one transaction in relation to West Thurrock er, which will be coming to an end er, James would you like to comment on that? [James:] Well, you're absolutely right, Eric, it does come to an end. Er, to what extent the rift er, filled, I don't think it can be wholly filled as a function of the recovery in er, the market for land. You know we have a considerable holding of er, land immediately adjacent to the reasonable shopping centre there and erm, if and when things become buoyant again and I went down there a couple of weeks and I was rather impressed by, by the look of the area, then clearly land prices go up and we have the capacity to, to generate more profit. But, I think it would be illusory to think that we can maintain our profits from land in ninety three at the same level as it had been for ninety one and two. [speaker003:] That was the final question. Well, yes we have a final question. [Raymond:] Tony from. You say if, if all your loans to B Sky B were performing and you consolidated them erm, what your income would be? [speaker003:] If we consolidated? If you, if all your loans to B Sky B were performing and you took credit for them what, what would the contribution be? Ah. Er, James. [James:] You mean, if we took the interest from Guarantee fees? [speaker003:] Yeah. [James:] You got an answer for that? A useful few million. An exciting shot. It's like all good things to come, I don't like to count my chickens, so I'd rather not, not the little memorandums say, oh you've got another X million, if only we could take them in this year. Any of my colleagues have a number in their mind? [speaker003:] . Fifteen. [James:] Thanks Charles. [speaker003:] Er, we have another question. What criteria, I mean, will you use to determine whether or not you actually erm, take those into account in determining nineteen ninety two's figures? [James:] Whether and when they're gonna be paid. [speaker003:] String that to whether, James. When James, not whether. [LAUGHTER] [James:] Well, I regard the answer to whether as academic. So, on happy, on that happy note could we go next door and have some coffee.

[Michael:] Good morning everyone, and welcome to Pearson's first half results. One way or another we've had a pretty busy six months. As you know we've decided to concentrate our management and financial resources on our media interests, which cover the information, education and entertainment markets and in which our spread of businesses including books, newspapers, family attractions and television are well placed for future growth. In June we acquired Thames Television, with its valuable programme rights, distribution business and production capability. And we have a crack at Star T V. The plans we announced on twenty seventh July to demerge Doulton and float Camco are already underway. Until such time as they leave the group, figures from these two businesses obviously continue to form part of our accounts. I'm pleased to say that in the course of the last six months we've seen a strong recovery in profits. So, let's now look at the results. Overall our nineteen ninety three first half pre-tax profits stand at forty six million for all our businesses including Doulton and Camco. That's nearly twelve million better than for nineteen ninety two and reflects its satisfying improvement in underlying performance. Sales were up by nineteen percent and there's also firm evidence in these results of margin improvements which reflect, for the first time, the full benefit of our cost cutting measures taken over the last three years. We've become better at making money in sluggish trading conditions and are making the most of the patchy recovery we've seen in some of our markets. Our overall operating profit has increased by some seventy percent over the same period last year. The difference between operating profit and profit before tax is of course made up of interest on non-operating items. James will cover er, this area in more detail later in the presentation. Earnings per share are up er, more than forty percent over the same period last year and when the E P S is adjusted to take account of the non-operating items, the figure has increased by nearly ninety percent. We said on twenty seventh July that we planned to pay an unchanged dividend for the full year. Accordingly, the board has declared an unchanged interim dividend of five point three seven five P per share. Altogether then er, an encouraging set of results and I'll hand you over to Frank to take us through them in more detail. [Frank:] Good morning everyone. Well, as you can see from that slide, a much better first half with four of our, four out of six of our businesses getting brownie points, especially newspapers and the merchant banking. And there are good reasons why the other two are as they are, and I'll explain that in due course. So, I'll start with the book businesses. Book sales show a, a nice increase in er, in sales revenue, especially in the U K, which is up seventeen percent overall. Penguin U K is gaining sale and market share and in North America the sales are only slightly down on last year, which was a very exceptional year anyway. Longman did particularly well in the U K, although coeternal markets were difficult and er, sales in the schools markets in er, North America was hard going for Addison Wesley, with U S physical problems restricting the,amou money that schools had to er, had to use. But we did particularly well in colleges. Moving to profits for the book companies, these are slightly down, but this isn't indicative of a full year and the general outlook is er, is good. The Penguin profits pattern followed the sales pattern, that is to say an increase in the U K more than offsetting er, a decline in the U S. Longman had a very, very er, very good increase in profits and the Addison Wesley loss, which is bigger in the first half than usual er, isn't something that bothers me particularly, I'm really quite relaxed about full year performance, but just to make sure they're er, attacking erm, expenses, travel, administration, that kind... but nothing in the erm, book investment programme. Newspapers, apart from Les Echo erm, advertisement volumes were pretty flat. Les Echo managed a nice increase in financial advertising, but elsewhere volumes were flat erm, and so the revenue increased has depended on er, rate increases, changes in the mix or circulation revenue, with a mixture of cover price increases and some increases in circulation. Profits are well up, cost reduction obviously played a major part in this and the F T group is er, fifty five percent up on last year and this is against the background of a five percent drop in advertisement volume and we have an eleven percent drop in advertisement volume from the continent of Europe erm, which of course doesn't affect other national newspapers. The Economist and Les Echo both recorded record circulations once again, and Recolleters that's our partnership in Spain, as you will recall er, their profits continued to buck the trends in a very tough market. The Westminster Press cost budget is now adjusted and they're currently trading at a nine percent margin which would be ten percent if it wasn't for the er, expenditure on er, Yorkshire on Sunday er, the circulation of which is growing very nicely. Er, and I expect that margin to continue rising and be much higher again next year, so the medicine is working there. Entertainment, we divide our entertainment into two parts, television and attractions. So starting with television, we said at the er, announcement of the Doulton, Camco demerger that we intended to develop further in the visual media, and so we are setting up a T D, T V division in which we'll place all of our T V interests, at present just Thames, the investment in B Sky B and er, Yorkshire Tyne Tees, but watch this space, we e we intend to add to this er, division. Now, obviously I'm not going to talk about profits from the T V division just now, because Thames only came in at the half year, and we're not including any profits from B Sky B in the half year, but it's likely that we'll take some de-loan stock interest in at the year end. Attractions... they've produced a very commendable rise in revenue and profits er, from the Tussaud group, although as you will recall most of the profits in the group come in July and August. But despite the recession there was an exceptional increase in attendances. Marylebone Road was up by eight point two percent, Rock Circus attendances were up by twenty eight percent and Chessington twenty one percent. Even at White Castle and Alton Towers, both of which recorded record attendances last year, they were up by fourteen percent and sixteen percent respectively. And we achieved an increase in the spend per head, so the Tussaud group is a real tale of success. Let's now turn to the non-media businesses. Starting with Camco, the newly appointed Chief Executive er, has been very, very active and has made a great impact already. Even the products division which has been a long time drag on profitability improved its performance, and was well up too. The overall excellent improvement in first half performance is masked by a technical transfer last year, which of course isn't repeated this year and this year a provision of, formerly in pounds following the settlement of a civil anti-trust suit. Er, I make a point of never saying I told you so, but we did expect the upturn to come, because fundamentally stru er, Camco is a strong business. Fine china... sales have improved but the profit hasn't and this needs some explanation. We've been incurring costs on two fronts, redundancy and also reducing factory stocks, short time working and this has brought down margins and profits, but the cash flow's improving and despite poor conditions in Europe and Japan er, volume and unit value of orders is er, increasing slowly. That brings us to investment banking and I'll leave you here since er, James our, James financial director's the director of Lazzards and he's gonna go through the Pearson financials. He er, he will cope with Lazzards at the same time, so James, over to you. [James:] Thank you Frank. Well, it's been a good half year for investment banking. Just to remind you er, we have a fifty percent interest in Lazzard brothers and a ten percent interest in the New York and Paris partnerships. In New York er, most of you will be well aware that the I P O and market remains extraordinarily healthy and there have been therefore er, excellent opportunities for securities, profits and erm, therefore New York had its best first half ever. I i in London there's been a good improvement across the board, a much healthier corporate finance climate and Lazzards has er, been pretty prominent in the rights issues in the first half of the year. If we then go back to er, look at the profits as a whole, there are just three items I'd like to comment on, the corporate expenses as other income er, has obviously had a dramatic improvement. This reflects, effectively, the sale of another of our shares in Cedar Fayre The profit on sale of fixed assets comes right down, as you again er, I think all know, we've had the benefit of our last of shares and we're actually rather pleasantly surprised that we were able to er, sell some land at Lakeside to CostCo, which is why we have some profit of three million er, for the first half of ninety three. Change in the interest charge reflects no more than the impact of the stronger dollar on our U S dollar interest costs. Going on down er, the profit and loss account, the tax charge er, is lower as a percentage than it was this time last year. This time last year we actually were a little too conservative. We normally try and estimate the full year tax charge and then apply it to six months and we got it wrong. Further point has helped er, keep the tax charge well down in ninety three, is that the, there is no tax on the non-operating items, they're tax free effectively, whereas that wasn't true a year ago. As a result, adjusted earnings are up very helpfully as you can see. If I can turn to the balance sheet, it's a little more complicated, we're in a rather odd position at the thirtieth of June of incorporating the Thames er, balance sheet because our offer went unconditional. We haven't paid for it and therefore er, we er, you see a rather large item for provisions and minorities, that includes the ninety nine million consideration that er, went out of the door in July, as well, of course, as the substantial provisions that Thames made, in their own accounts for their property leases and for er, potential losses on the disposal of Reeves their West Coast, U S production company. They erm, the Thames investment in Astra is er, another reason for, in fact the principal reason for the increase in associates and investments, working capital is a simple, a seasonal outflow which has been, again by the stronger dollar and the reduction in shareholders funds compared with the thirty first of December er, reflects the eighty six million pound good will write off on Thames. Net debt as you can see er, from the next slide and indeed it was in the balance sheet er, it was a hundred and seventy million against a hundred and eighty five on thirtieth of June. Erm, that isn't an entirely accurate reflection on our performance er, there are two factors. Er, we've flattened the one hand by the inclusion of Thames' own cash of twenty seven million, but on a year and year comparison the erm, the dollar, the sterling value of our dollar debt was fifty two million pounds higher, so in fact we have reduced net debt on, at an operating level year on year. The other feature, I think, of the debt that's worth drawing your attention to is a sharp shift towards variable debt compared to a year ago, a number of our swaps have matured, we've put one new one in er, some of our medium term notes have matured in the, in the States and we're at last in a position to take more advantage of er, lower, short term variable interest rates than we were. With that I'll hand you back to Michael. [Michael:] We'd now like to take questions. [speaker004:] Erm, I was wondering if you'd perhaps like to tell us how you're going to manage your er, your. [Michael:] Well, I think Frank mentioned er, that we were forming a T V division and I think, Frank you might like to say more. [Frank:] Well we'll, we'll set that up with a board of its own erm, as an operating board and each of our divisions has an operating board erm, and that means it will have a finance director, it will have, and it will have a Chief Executive er, and there'll be one or two other people on that board, such as er, Mark, Development Director er, and er, we'll go from there. [speaker004:] Can you give some idea as to what the er, can you give some idea as to what the underlying sales growth was in the first half? You've got the nineteen percent and, as the statement says, there was some degree of benefit from currency. What was the underlying? [Michael:] James, can you give that accurate? [James:] . Absolutely. Sales er, of their hundred and thirty million increase in sales erm, seventy seven million exchange, fifty two million er, underlying. [Michael:] Yes? [speaker004:] Could you break down the profit of the F T group between Les Echo and, and the F T in the U K? [Michael:] I don't think we normally do that. I think in broad terms we can say that er, Les Echo comparatively did better than the F T. But... [Frank:] Yes er, the F the F T er, did improve er, Les Echo improved, Recolleters improved, the Economist was slightly down on last year, but remember, the Economist were at record profits last year and erm, so even maintaining their, their profits or just dropping is a good performance. And again, I wouldn't regard that as indicative of a full year. Yes? [speaker004:] Can you erm, quantify what costs were taken above the line in the first half in terms of redundancy costs, restructuring costs, in the presentation to some restructuring again in the fine china division and how that compared to last year? [James:] Redundancy costs for the first half of three point two million, nought point seven million less than ninety two.... Yep, for the group. [speaker004:] Is there expectations that there will be any more redundancy costs in the second half? [James:] Frank. [Frank:] Erm, yes. There could, there could well be more redundancy in the second half er, declining, but there could still be a little. Er, overall you know, we're constantly looking where, for reducing staffing levels and where we see opportunity of that, we do it. Er, and that usually involves redundancy. So we don't regard it as ever static, but er, the major push on redundancies is over. [speaker004:] You have in the past actually erm how much you think you've lowered your cost basis by over, over a period [Michael:] Hmm. [speaker004:] a period of two and a half, three years now. Can you quantify that again? [Michael:] Erm, I couldn't answer that off the top of my head but we'll erm, I'll let you have the information. I'll write to you and give you the information. [James:] Yes? [speaker004:] Just, just so that we can erm, make sure for the cabaret committee you haven't given yourself enormous pay rises in the first half can you, can you split out in the corporate expenses less other, what the er, er, profit on the sale of some of your Cedar Fayre investment was? [James:] Yes, that's fine. It's, it's effective of the whole of the increase. Erm, let me just erm... of the, of the change, the five million change it's, it's in accounts for over four and there is small odds and ends changes otherwise. A very modest increase in underlying costs, I assure you. [speaker004:] How many shares have you got left in Cedar Fayre [Michael:] David. [David:] Erm, we have about four and a half percent to five percent of the company left. [speaker004:] Erm, could you give us some idea as to what the level of the accrue er, fees on loans guarantees and, and so forth on the erm, [Michael:] James. [James:] So what we're gonna be taking in and when? [speaker004:] What you're owed [James:] Ya, well, I haven't got the, yes, the backlog is very substantial er, in terms of things like guaranteed fees and erm, non-stock interest but it's a long way out er, I mean if we add it all up, you might be far too impressed by the figure but I think erm, we know that's the right way of looking at it. What we've got is, as you know there's a hierarchy of repayment er, starting with the de-loan stock interest which is the, the last funding and then there's the maiden dividend and then there's guarantee fees and then there's erm, sorry, before that is senior loan stock interest from B S B H and then guarantee fees. So, they kick in at different stages. What we think as, as Frank said erm, our policy is to accrue erm, income, which we think we'll get in cash terms the following year, ie, we're not gonna accrue it as soon as B Sky B expenses it, which is one end of the spectrum of erm, imprudence you could say or, and the other end, extreme prudence is to account for nothing until it's cleared er, in the bank balance. We, we now think it's appropriate to strike a medium balance, therefore we'll get the de-loan stock interest up to ninety three, we'll take in, in this year, which we expect to get next year. [speaker004:] And how much of the cash received? I mean there's something you still owe to er, to Reed [James:] To Reed Erm, right, who knows the terms of the Reed Mark, do we know that one? [Mark:] Not off the top of my head. What we're paying them on. We're certainly paying, I, I, I think it's capital receipts, is it off, is it only the capital receipts on the interest. They had a lot of capital payments also and we have as it were the erm, the P & O element er, with B Sky B which is the erm, the items I've gone through. Then you have a number of loan repayments, and you're quite right, there is a, there is a ma an amount will be paid to Reed equivalent to, I E we're not gonna pay them the interest for the capital receipts but when amount, we receive money we're paying it on. That means we will still refracting it in our P & O account but the cash flow terms will be neutral. [Michael:] And I think a significant point is that for the first time in ninety three we were likely to take something in, in relation to B Sky B. [James:] Yes, well actually Nigel was ha was first. Same thing, right. [speaker004:] It follows on from that question, it comes, you've got a line B Sky B er, you've got a line B Sky B in the T V er, division so it presumably, that loan interest is coming in that division, is that right, rather than net if off against interest? [James:] I'm afraid we're not allowed to er, Neil. Er, I think for management purposes and for presentation purposes, we will erm, presentation but certainly in terms of our accounts erm, we have no option but to exempt the giving interest receivable but to erm, impress you with the modesty of our, of our interest and therefore how good our interest cover is. Maybe that's, that's erm, that's what the erm, that's what Coopers and the accounted principles require. That although it's erm, in our mind and yours, identify with a specific investment. [speaker004:] Just following, following on from that. The er, Thames er, investment, how is that doing and have you sold Reeves yet? Thanks, er well, Thames is doing rather well. You, you, I'm sure you read about the twenty two million pound deal with er, B B C and er, and there are, there are other deals in the offing. Er, Reeves has been sold er, and so erm, the cost of that has been er, crystallized now and so that's no longer a problem. And the pr we're er, I would expect the profits of Thames to be in line with that that we expected when we acquired the business. [James:] Yes? [speaker004:] Can you tell us a bit more about Addison Wesley and why you feel relaxed with that? [James:] Addis er, Addison Wesley and why we're relaxed. [Michael:] Addison, well er, it's a very well managed business, it's a very good business er, there are only two businesses in the U S A have higher sales per head than Addison Wesley, and one of those is and it's had a, that's had a super time in maths and there's only one business and that's which earns more profit per employee then er, Addison Wesley and erm, again that's and that reflects that one off maths programme. Erm, and we're doing very well in college. So er, and the Chief Executive there would er, I think commit suicide if he, if he brought in less profits than the year before. So I'm quite relaxed and they're attacking the costs as well. [James:] That is not a forecast. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] When will, when will these constraints be relaxed? Well that's, that's an. Mr Clinton or Mrs Clinton, I'm not sure. Unpredictable. [James:] Yes? [speaker004:] Can you just say a little bit more about erm, the structure of the, the T V board, will you be looking to make any external appointments to fill those positions er, and secondly, following on from that erm, as you said you, you had a look at Star T V and came off empty handed. Do you still have interests in, in that part of the world with regards to broadcast? Er, I'll answer the second part of the, the question. I'll hand the first one over to Frank. Er, yes we do er, our overall television strategy has been to establish er, a U K base, where we are restricted because of the newspaper ownership in most cases other than B Sky B to twenty percent, though the rules may change and our strategy is to develop er, overseas, both in erm, er, broadcasting and, and, and in programming. Er, as we can make the opportunities available. There are opportunities out there and people tend to think of, or sometimes think of deals as being unique deals and they're unique in themselves, but there are always other unique deals that can be found. [Frank:] Yes er, Richard will be on that board and er, and we also accept, expect erm, further outside appointments.... Appointment anyway, and possibly appointments. [James:] Yes? [speaker004:] I suppose one wonders whether the Financial Times feels un uneasy about the proposed reduction in the price of the er, of the Times, as, as no doubt the Independent, probably the, the Telegraph. [James:] Well, I was discussing that with Frank last night and he actually pointed out that it might help the sales of the Financial Times because er, er the F T's very often bought as a second newspaper and if you get your first newspaper cheap, you've got more change in your pocket. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank:] Actually, the Financial Times it comes in a completely different position to erm, the Independent and, and, and the Guardian and even the Telegraph. To start with it's a specialist newspaper and secondly erm, the, the F T is, is profitable and erm, even if, even in a great recession and erm, the other element is we every year increase our overseas sales, six percent. Erm, specialist newspapers, I really don't expect the Times erm, to have any effect on the F T's sale. [speaker004:] Could you just on that remind us what the current, what the cover price is as a percentage of revenues in the F T? [Frank:] Roughly eighty twenty. I mean it, obviously it varies according to whether it's, whether advertising's booming, but in, in overall, over time it can work on twenty percent on the revenue coming from the cover price and about eighty percent coming from er, from advertisements and so, it's, it's, it's not a major, major figure. Incidentally, I'm not surprised the er, the Times is reducing its price. I think it's about right now. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] I think that's a re terrible comment. Yes? [speaker004:] Sir, can you give us an idea of the growth within the electronic business in the F T. [Frank:] In er, terms, they er, they're growing very well. Erm, profitably, profitability isn't, isn't as good. We, we've been growing something like er, twenty five percent per annum. I think this year speaking from memory it was something like fifteen, sixteen percent er, increase this year erm, but er, we're getting to the stage now where it's, it's getting into profit and so we're quite pleased with the growth there. [speaker004:] Are you still developing your presence in Japan? [Frank:] Yes, yes, we erm, we're obviously in Japan and erm, and increasing the sales slowly there but it's a very good market for us, very good advertisement market er, for us and er, I think I've told you before, even before, before the recession, it started, it looked as if we would recoup the extra spending in the first year. Sad to say the recession overtook that but it's, it's developing strongly again there now. [speaker004:] It's not costing you money? [Frank:] It's costing us a bit of money but er, you know, we don't do these things for the short term, er [speaker004:] What's a bit, a million a year or? [Frank:] Er, well, the extra costs was two million a year er, and at the end of the first six months in the first year we'd, we'd, we'd achieved a million extra revenue, so it looks as if we've paid for it. But it's probably costing us about er, three quarters of a million to a million just now net. [speaker004:] You've shown that you've moved erm, substantially towards variable debt but there is obviously an outburst currency impact, you said in the first half. How is your debt, your gross debt currently constituted and where is your cash held? [James:] Cash is overwhelmingly in sterling erm, can I just look up and remind my erm, refresh me on that. The erm, the gross borrowings, the dollar is the overwhelming element in, in terms of we have about erm, two hundred and thirty five million of sterling debt, two bond issues and some old loan stocks and then the rest of it, that's gross debt and, and some of that swaps, you know. All the, almost all are sterling except a little bit of, of Camco cash, which is in U S dollars, is in sterling and then erm, we have really a similar amount of U S dollar debt and small amounts of Canadian and French franc, peseta and Ozzie dollar where we really gear simple finance, small investments in those countries, under a hundred percent. We have offices, now we have erm, a genuine French franc exposure to Les Echo but apart from that we don't really bother. [speaker004:] Is it possible to tell us how your advertising revenue performed in the first half on your Westminster Press and F T and whether you've experienced any improvements in sits vac advertising since the end of the first half? [Michael:] Yes it is and I'll hand it to Frank. [Frank:] Advertisement er, revenue at Westminster Press ended the six months at about the, advert revenue about the same level as last year but it was below last year's level early on, so in other words erm, advertisement volume is growing, because there's next to no, there's, the yield is about the same overall. Erm, so volume has been gradually growing as the year progresses and erm, and more so in the last erm, the last say six weeks of the er, of the half year. So, I would expect that to continue and expect erm, revenue to get ahead of last year. Erm, as I said F T volumes are flat but er, they, they, they did achieve an increase in the yield erm, but forward bookings are much better at the F T and October looks rather better, so I think advertisement volumes are, are on the increase. Situations vacant, in Westminster Press there was an increase in the south er, in volume terms, in the southern divisions, not in the northern divisions but then the northern divisions didn't experience the same problems with sits vac and are much more profitable. I mean Northern Echo at Darlington, Bradford, York, Kendal, they're all very profitable businesses er, and so they're, but they haven't had any increase in sits, in sits vac. Where, and Financial Times has had some increase in, in sits vac too, which is a high yielding er, category of course. [speaker004:] The, the deal of Lazzards of New York erm, comes in the second half, I presume and does the B M P er, flotation commence also in the second half? [Michael:] I think that remains to be seen. I mean, [speaker004:] Just a bit more about Camco second half is, given these little plus and minuses you've had in the first, first half, what's coming in the second? [Michael:] Well, erm, it's difficult to make forecasts, particularly with the S E C breathing down one's neck but I think one can say that the industry conditions, if you were to read the reports of other companies and for us, is pretty much erm, status quo, in other words the domestic [sneeze] excuse me, domestic industry's doing quite well, the rig, the rig count's up, the Canadian rig count's up, international markets remain rather soggy but some of them are qui you know on a, on a selective basis some are quite good. For example the erm, Frank referred to doing quite well and some of that was due to sales into the former Soviet Union. [James:] Erm, the erm, the erm, the erm, er, settlement of the anti tr civil anti trust law suit that was referred to in the statement was erm, costs of about six million dollars this year on a class action law suit which we have reached a tentative settlement on in the last few days and, in fact, there were some, there was about six to seven million dollars of additional provision made at the end of last year in the one time charges that we referred to at that time but couldn't really identify with erm, lawyers breathing down your necks in the United States and er, this is a class action law suit, would have been in a Texas Court and erm, you know, the boiler plate language is that you want to get rid of the, you know, the expense and uncertainty of this type of litigation and if you think that what a Texas jury did to Texaco, it's probably a prudent decision to close the matter off at this time. [speaker004:] Is it a recent provision order, that? [James:] Well, they're making a new one. [Michael:] It's a combination of costs incurred this year plus provision to cover erm, the costs of the settlement, legal expenses and other allied, and other related items. [speaker004:] With, with regards to Camco's Eastern European sales drive, does this have any er, implications in terms of er, working capital movements, in terms of helping them fund those acquisitions and what sort of er, provisions perhaps, are you taking on those sales? [Frank:] Erm, I'm not sure I quite understand the question. [speaker004:] Well, in terms of er, bad debt. [Frank:] Erm, we gen gen generally speaking sales into places like the former Soviet Union and other parts of the world are done against letters of credit, so generally speaking there are not erm, bad debt problems. You know, one or two inci one or two isolated incidents but overall erm, the erm, business in the oil service industry is done on, on erm, er, a letter of credit terms. [speaker004:] Er, how did the entertainment businesses do in July and August? [Michael:] Frank. [Frank:] They, they did very well. Good attendances... and Alton Towers particularly is erm, is, is er, booming, doing very strong business and also has one or two promotionals, er promotional activities which should er, extend the se extend that er, later in the season. So, it's going well. [speaker004:] Erm, I seem to remember that when we met earlier in the year and you were looking forward to, to, to this year as a whole, I think you er, indicated that it was going to be a good year and I think you also suggested, if I remember right, that you thought the better part of that improvement would be seen in the second half rather than the first. I wonder, if I got it right and I remember it correctly, whether that's still the view? [Frank:] Well, I think that I bore people endlessly by saying that erm, the first half results are not an indication of the year as a whole because we make the bulk of our pro profits in the second half and you know, that remains, that remains true. I think at the time of the er, of the A G M, I said we were pleased by the prospects and in the current statement I say the outlook continues promising, but I don't think at any point we've made more of a forecast than that. [speaker004:] Are you gonna repeat the miracle of the first half and sen sell some more land in Thurrock in the second half? [Michael:] I'll turn that to Mark, cos I'm not on the Thurrock committee. [Mark:] I, I think I would be unwise too to make a forecast, so all, all I can say is there are some enquiries around of er, people who appear to be interested but erm, er, you know, the burden hangs quite a lot, you know... the burden's still, the is quite a long way away still, but it's not impossible we could sell some more land. [speaker004:] You've got, you've got the cash from CostCo, haven't you? [David:] Yes, yeah, yes, yes. [speaker004:] Er, sorry, just to follow up on B Sky B again, are you gonna be accruing for any arrears in the interest er, in the second half, as well as the ongoing amount? [Michael:] Yes, yes, we'll get, we'll get the ninety two and ninety three erm interest for in ninety, in the second half. [speaker004:] So what you would have had for the whole of ninety two and the whole of ninety three will all come in, will all come in the second half of ninety three. Right, thanks. [Michael:] Yeah, on the, on the de on the de-loan stock. Yes? [Frank:] Would it be helpful to give some order of magnitude here, James? [James:] Yes, Chairman. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] Less, less than ten million. Yes. [Michael:] Brilliant management. Well, one of the reasons it er, bucked the trend was because... [Frank:] Is this Les Echo? [Michael:] Yeah, one of the reasons it bucked the trend was because we've erm, ground one of our competitors into the dust and he's had to combine with another newspaper there and that too is struggling. Incidently, it's just had a change of ownership erm, a well-financed new owner but we're, we're still confident of our position there. No, no, he actually got erm, erm, a nice increase in, in fin in financial advertising. I don't want to give you the impression it's buoyant there, it isn't. [speaker004:] Could you say anything about your extension plans, I mean have they changed much, or what might they do in Tokyo? [Michael:] Not much, well probably about sixty million for, for the year I'd say. [James:] Or a bit more. They always, they always lag as you know, our, our, we always underspend capital in the first half against what our division think they're gonna do and they always think they're gonna catch it up in the second half, they never do but erm, it won't be, you know, it won't be materially different. [Michael:] Well, I think the budget's ninety, in the nineties but we don't expect to spend more than sixty million. [James:] Yeah,, we won't spend that much. Somewhere in between, let's say. [speaker004:] Your Royal Doulton, you might have some idea of how the er, different brands are doing. You mentioned in the annual report and accounts that Expressions was meant to be doing very well although its more up market brands were slightly more sluggish. [Frank:] Er, can the future Chairman answer that? [speaker004:] I haven't got the detailed figures er, er, with me but er, I believe that still is the case, that er, er, people's eating habits are er, that dining habits as it were er, are changing somewhat and the er, the everyday china market is, is possibly more buoyant than the er, erm, the Royal Crown and Minton. Would you make any conscious decision to move slightly down market or less up market? [speaker007:] I myself wouldn't use that phrase. I think that er, er, what I would say is that er, we would follow the markets erm, where they lead us. [Michael:] And the answer's yes. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank:] The fine china's er, doing er, quite well in, in Japan actually and that's starting to pick up again. [James:] Any, shall I say a couple more questions? If anybody's got one. No, no more questions. Well, thank you very much indeed.

[speaker001:] and they said it was going on and they were pleased with it Right well what is the, I'm not quite actually clear what're they doing for us? So you didn't all have a stroll out there and have a look at it then? No, unfortunately I missed part of the evening and I don't know whether they had done that previously but when I was there they didn't do it, no. The only one I would mention Chairman is not strictly accurate, we all did, lots of us anyway, the, the British Legion service on Sunday at the church and I just wondered if we could agree to send a letter to the president cos once again a lot of effort and time and organization went into it and I thought it was an excellent occasion and I think he might appreciate Fine he should be thanked for organizing it on behalf of the Council. Well, he will be sending us a bill, I can pop it in when we get the bill [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I can assure you that I did and I can assure you that I have already thanked him on behalf of the Council, shook his hand and said how well he done it, but if you'd like a letter to go to say how well he done it, then I'll send a letter telling him how well he done it. He always sends us a bill Well, I think he should have a letter anyway, definitely thanking him cos I mean he did like I suggest after we get the bill else it'll it went up last year [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, I just thought the Chair would like to thank Councillor for the immense amount of work I know that he's been putting in over certain things that have been going on lately and I now take councillors' questions if any of you got any for me. Thank you. Erm, I would like to close by saying that erm I just thought it would be just a nice idea that I would invite any of you members of the Council and wives who haven't got anything else to do on Christmas morning, if you fancy popping up to my house for a glass of sherry or whatever, just on a casual basis as a little thank you for what you've done over the erm over the last twelve months, I extend that invitation to you all and District Councillors if they wish to come and I would like to say, on behalf of the Council, that I hope you all have a, this is the last full meeting, and to everybody here I hope you have a very nice happy peaceful Christmas and I hope we all go into the new year with renewed vigour. Chairman I do have a couple of questions, I do have a couple of questions if I may. Oh, sorry. I thought you'd done that. Very quickly, audit report, audit report, do we have anything on that yet? Not yet. Erm, well we it's been accepted and I was, I was something over and the lady was horrified. I'm awfully sorry about it That's good. And the other one, I wonder if the Council would consider, over sixties club, I ought to declare an interest I suppose, erm have two hundred members and they are distributing this Christmas, as they al always do, a three pound voucher to each of those members in office you know and I just wondered whether the Council would consider a small contribution towards that expenditure. We do obviously make grants to youth clubs and organizations. We've never made a contribution to this club. I w Perhaps you'd like to talk to somebody a before the branch meeting. If that comes in I don't think I could take it in Oh no, no I'd Could it be referred to the grant first? Could we get something from them? Well it's up, you know, all I was asking I was just querying you said you, you when you said is they're issuing three pound to each member? Three pound voucher, er well not voucher no, erm box of groceries Yes, that's right Do you get one? You don't get one do you? My wife was embarrassed today yes You what Someone called her up yeah I'll make a note of that one [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well well Well, it's nice to end the year in such good humour. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for all for your attendance. I'm sorry about that Mr Chairman but er I don't know if that's correct. Well just have a look and see if you think it alright Yeah, fine Could you phone in the morning Yes as well as? Yes says it would be we could get his opinion on why the Yeah, I know him quite well It appears to be that it's off the rails Finances, I think they're well up on that sort of thing Oh yes, they're very well up financially... [break in recording] that our total spending is still nought nought nought Nought nought nought It was indeed Could we just ask I'll fill it in Oh oh I'm not Eighty eight Yes, it's on the set you've got, it's there Well I'll, I'll read it out to you and then you can amend them. On the official ones it was resolved totalling four one two five and sixty pence for October and six hundred and seventy one twenty five for the T I C. Can I just explain why that was? The books were at the auditors and I didn't want to hold up the minutes and, as you'd all mostly seen them anyway, I felt that perhaps I could let them go. It does help with our twelve month projection if we haven't spent anything It makes you much closer to budget [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Thank you for bringing that up. With that erm with that exception can I sign the minutes? Agreed. Thank you Move on then to matters arising, item four, number one, one three four, uses for the old hospital. Erm, you will remember that after the last meeting we were going to have a meeting with Mr which we, which we subsequently did have and we put forward several erm possible uses for the old hospital, including re-siting of the library, relocation of the council offices, police station, day centre for the elderly, day services for the physically disabled, for young mothers and children centre and for a mental health services centre and he was delighted that we had the meeting because he has to meet with his superiors late in December, early January, when he has been asked to put forward ideas. They are considering now short-term leases rather than sell on the market as it is at the present, and they are including the clinic in the buildings for which they are looking for alternative uses. So I think we er await further developments on that. Erm, item two one three four an update from Councillor. It's been overtaken by events in that you have apparently had an application in and that's being studied, when, next Monday? Yes, it'll come up on Monday next erm, no Monday fortnight, yes, twentieth. There is a planning application in for thirty four flats, that will include converting into flats as well. Right, there's not a lot more we can say until that At this stage we can't, but it will come before the Council on the twentieth. Let's make certain this time, nevertheless, Chairman, that this Council does spell out very thoroughly reasons for objection, if they wish to object, and not missing anything out I think we always have actually. This is a new a I take your point and that will be looked at, thank you. Right, item three one three four footpaths. It was my pleasure to chair a meeting between all interested parties at village hall. Erm, having been told that the County Council were running the meeting, I did find it a little difficult to chair, but I do think that we've come out of it with some constructive ideas. Erm, perhaps the Town Clerk would like to comment further as a er developments as you see them. Well it was a very successful meeting. I mean, considering there are only about five hundred people in there were just on forty people present in the room which is quite a good average or percentage of them and er a lot of the questions were quite positive and the Chairman sort of took them, there were one or two people there who obviously erm wanted to have everything either exactly as it was or whatever, but it looked very much from the conversation that I had with the ramblers afterwards that in large part this scheme could be accepted. Erm, the only area that I found that er there was a particular wish to keep was the road le was the path leading down from down to itself. They really don't seem to want to have that part closed off but that part along by the river and that seemed to be almost entirely er satisfactory to everybody and er Chairman fenced off one or two other people quite well. One of the warmer meetings I've done but th I think that we did come out in the end with all bar four people in the room, I believe that's right Councillor is it? Four was it? Er, the vast majority seemed to be generally in favour of the package and it was a small number that did seem to me. I think that puts it fairly well in er perspective and hopefully now the County Council will come up with the er d. Erm, it shouldn't, it should be noted that the er land owners are prepared to pay for a fairly expensive footbridge on their land to cure the problem and er I hope that this Council's initiatives follow through and a twenty five year old problem gets cured. Thank you Chairman and Town Clerk and Councillors for attending that meeting because this has been a problem here for so long that I think all of us would be delighted to see it resolved to the er satisfaction of the local residents. Right, item four, folio eighty five, one three five working party. I agree with the Town Clerk. He feels it's time we actually set up a working party. Well unfortunately we were scheduled to have a meeting erm something like ten days ago and then two or three of the key people had to drop out so I cancelled the meeting because obviously we want the people there who were going to actually get the thing up and running so that we can formulate a first public meeting and I would like erm, you know, now, to establish a working party but again a number of the people who one would expect to be on it are not here and it's slightly awkward. I know Councillor is quite happy to be on it, I would hope that Councillor is. Yeah How many do you want on it? I want at least five and I just wanted to erm establish that with one or two other people who er presently attend the tourism meetings are invited as required, rather than to every meeting. Er, how can we take this forward? Er, I presume we, we actually know that and are on it. will be on it automatically. Erm, you were thinking Ya two others? Ya And then coopt as they As we need Correct ya Wh anybody with a bursting ambition and desire to be on the working party? Or will it be another one that I have to join in with? Oh well and a volunteer will volunteer if they're not keeping anyone else away from things. Wonderful, there we are. I'll establish a first meeting as soon as I can. The odd name there with a familiar ring to it I fancy. However, we move on. Item five folio eighty six one three five public seats, an update. Well, I've circulated the letter that I got from. I don't agree with it because there are certainly seats there which are their responsibility which are not on this list, particularly around this memorial outside and places like that and erm quite categorically they're theirs. What I would like is for all the Councillors to look at this, to advise me which other seats they think are indeed the responsibility of and then I'll go back and go to battle but er I'd like everybody's views on which ones they believe they are so that I can do it firmly. Erm, has had chance to cast his eye over that list? No. Well if we could send that with the amenities and perhaps if they've got any, we can't say that er, I view this as very much, we've, we've got a platform here. They've accepted the responsibility for a number of seats. If we can get a few more accepted under their responsibility so be it. There's the old seat up that they seem to discard but that's the last old seat of Council, the old fashioned seat. You couldn't find that one, could you? Yes, it's there It's responsibility Councillor, good evening. Chairman, good evening gentlemen. There is a seat by our place which Council have always maintained. It's not on this list. Right well we'll include that one then. If you could let me have these in writing it would make life easier How do you know they haven't maintained it? Could you just drop a note in to the Town Clerk as to where that is? I appreciate what you say but we wanna It's over the road just beyond our Well I'll leave you to liaison with that Right Fine, thank you for that. That's progress. Eighty six one three five level crossing gates. I'd just like to say a doesn't it look wonderful, the one gate we've done a I saw a I saw a train coming last week [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] However, the problem is that Mr is not keen, I think it's been a labour of love doing the one, he's not keen to do the other one. He says he doesn't feel that he can do it, does he? I wrote and thanked him on behalf of the Council for what he'd done but it's now a question of finding somebody who can match it. So at least now we've got a specification to go to,w we know what it looks like and er we've had one or two quotes in the past week and for firmed those up now and chosen exactly what we want them to do. I mean before it was a little bit difficult to describe exactly what we wanted. He's certainly done a, a very good job on that one, it's very Mhm, I'm delighted we've done that We'd really like the other one done by the tourist season because it's the sort of thing to send people to look at Is it? Well, compared to some of the other things that are supposed to be tourist attractions come and look at the gates sub- contract planning committee which has already had a look at that That's right yes You agree that the contract sub-committee looks at that d rather than the Council? All agreed? Thank you. Right number seven folio eighty eight one four six policing update. Successful I think, the phone's going in downstairs today, is that right It's er, the box is there, it's just gotta be the actual phone unit's gotta be put in Right It's all wired up in the back as well. And I will, although he's here, thank him in front of him, moving mountains to make sure we get an increased police presence in. I'm delighted to say that we're gonna have w what, a unit based in here, isn't it? Section. A section. The best thing I can do, with your permission, Council, is invite Inspector to talk about what we're gonna do for er er a police section in. Have I got your permission? Yes of course Yes. Agree with that? Yes Seconded? Alright, thank you,. Two points that I wish to update the Council on. The Chairman's already er done the first which is the box outside. I know that wishes to take a photograph of the Chairman and myself on Wednesday You won't both get in it together. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] standing in front of the box It won't be picture, will it? But of course it is important that the box is er in operational use before such a photograph is taken, so I will endeavour tomorrow to er to resolve the situation of actually putting the phones in the box so that er by the time Wednesday comes, and our photograph, then it is up and running as they say. The other thing that I wish to update the Council on is my deliberations in respect of establishing a section here at. Now, as a background to that, I actually had one of my officers at undertake research of the in to establish what the demands were made upon us from th the section which includes at the present time. Erm, she actually traced back calls on the station log and it was done from the first of October nineteen ninety two to the thirtieth of September nineteen ninety three and during that time we had over five thousand three hundred and thirty calls, of which one thousand one hundred and sixty six originated from, so that is erm twenty point three percent of the calls received at police station and were held on came from, which is quite a lot. True true I therefore worked on the premise that if, if a fifth of our work comes from then it must be right to have approximately a fifth of our staff based in Hear hear At the present time I have in a total of fourteen patrol constables and two community constables and, as you are aware, I have two community constables here in, and. My proposal, and er notice I have in my hand a final draft which will be submitted later this week for approval by headquarters. My proposal is that we establish a section of four constables here in. Now that I propose will be achieved by the use of the two existing community constables and transferring two officers from to. The review that we undertook of the calls shows that the peak demands in are between eight A M and twelve midnight, so the four officers will work a sixteen hour duty scheme er of eight till four, four til midnight, and then the cover between midnight and A M will come fr eight A M will come from as it does at present. By having four officers here it means that they will be able to man the police car for those shifts seven days a week and in addition there will be one spare constable on every day except for Sunday either to cover deficiencies in that crewing or carry out er foot patrol or enquiries within the town. Now, my proposal is that this section is established on the seventeenth of January nineteen ninety four. Certainly Superintendent, who is my immediate senior officer, is very supportive of this proposition. I am aware that the Chief Superintendent in, Superintendent, Chief Superintendent is also supportive of the idea. So I would anticipate that my proposals will receive favourable consideration from headquarters. So hopefully by the erm, I should be in a position by the next Council meeting, to report that we should be in a position to be up and running on the seventeenth of January. The problems er that face me accommodation have been overcome with the assistance of the Chairman and the Town Clerk ah and we have been offered additional accommodation here in the Council offices, which is most welcome. Erm, there is one slight technical problem which I have to overcome in relation to a computer terminal but I'll erm face that problem at if and when that situation develops. Hopefully then er on that date, as I say, we should have a fully fledged section here in. The other thing which I feel is important is that the section is supervised. There are two ways that it can be done, either by a sergeant at being totally er dedicated to the policing of. The disadvantage is that he would be based at and he would still be working a twenty four hour shift system at. The preferable proposal is that a sergeant is redeployed from from another town in and er I won't mention where I have my beady eye [LAUGHTER] I could get myself into trouble with a colleague of yours in another town but er I am hopeful, so as I say, er on the seventeenth of January then we could be returning to the situation and I understand in nineteen seventy four when there was a sergeant and six constables here in until the demise of the Urban District Council when they were all moved to. Twenty years later my plan is to move most of them back again. Well done. Thank you ever so much for that. I've moved back into and er I'd just like to say I'm sure on behalf of all of you and the people of that we see this as a tremendous move and thank you for the work you've put in. Er, I've been fortunate enough to share in some of that work with you and I know how much work's been involved. At the annual meeting, the annual meeting last year in the institute, it was obvious to me that one of the major concerns of people in this town was policing and police presence and I think the joint effort that we've put forward, and I must mention as well since he's, we've worked very well together, the police liaison office has been running extremely well I feel, the number of calls have gone up since we started. I would just like to say that I see this as an absolute benefit to and look forward to us working together in the future. Thanks very much. Hear hear Chairman, I would just like to add that er you and the Town Clerk are to be congratulated on this achievement [speaker002:] Yes, yes [speaker001:] and it should be recorded. Thank you. Thank you Councillor, that's very nice of you. Right, well Can I just make one point? Yes I think the fax would still be a highly useful element between us. I mean, that door is always open for you so there's no reason why we can't continue. I pumped one through today on something lost and it does give you an immediate link to, a written link. I would see no change to the exiting No police liaison arrangement. good, okay. I would just say that what we've done, we looked at the hospital, we looked at the youth building and at the moment we've come up with the idea of the s the back room, the second room across the corridor, erm where we actually store some of the T I C books and pamphlets. It is gonna be the second room for the police and by moving one door we can put their two rooms together and you've got access to the toilets, cloakrooms and all the necessary things, so without very much expenditure at all on anybody's back, we've actually created the section within this building. And so we've got our public part, our telephone, our fax machine, all through to the police, and now we're basing the car here. And so we've, now, you know, in these times when you get tied up in red tape and bureaucratic mess everywhere the speed at which has achieved this is admirable and I do really thank you for that. Hear hear ? Right, now we've reached item eight under matters arising. Thank you I know you've and I'm gonna vacate the chair now and let deal with. Right? Erm, no. That one. I'll let you know Right, ladies and gentlemen, fellow Councillors. Erm, we now move on to item eight appendix two and it's in matters arising regarding the estate. update the Chairman, I believe that the man who's major in this is Councillor who's now, as I understand, got a dispensation from the D O E. Is that correct Councillors? That indeed is correct Would you like to, to give us an update on that please? Thank you very much. Erm, I've written it out here if I may read it. It's the first occasion in fact on which I've been permitted to speak at any meeting dealing with this application. The D O E has authorized me to do so, but not to vote. I need hardly say I have found it difficult to hold my tongue on so important a matter over the last eighteen months. The latest situation is County Highways have recommended refusal. The Town Council, of which you are very aware, in a very detailed submission written by the Town Clerk, recommended refusal. All four District Councillors have written in and recommended refusal. County Councillor, Councillor on my right, I think is to be congratulated on the work he has done with County Highways on our behalf, and has written to District Council recommending refusal. The public have written thirty letters, representing about a thousand people, living in all corners of have written and recommended refusal. There have been no letters of support. The applicant has consistently, in three applications,t to develop this site, omitted to include a link road from the site into Lane, a road required by a policy statement in the statutory town plan. A policy that quite clearly states, in plain English, [reading] without a link road there shall be no development of this site []. In nineteen seventy, if I take you back to twenty three years ago, County recorded in the outline development plan the following and I quote [reading] growth in the town not accompanied by measures to alleviate the traffic problems in the existing road network would merely add to the deterioration in the quality of the environment in the town and without such measures no further expansion is environmentally acceptable [] unquote. In the past twenty years the population of this town has almost doubled and the number of cars using the roads has trebled, making that quote much much more topical. A further quote, if I may, from the same document [reading] in association with the construction in a link road between the site and Lane shall be provided and the Lane Road junction closed [] unquote. That is a comment twenty years ago regarding the most dangerous crossroads in, Hill. The amount of traffic using Hill and Street is destroying, in my opinion, and polluting the town. The elderly are terrified to cross the road in what is the main shopping centre. An elderly lady, this weekend actually,i it sounds funny but it's rather serious what she said actually. We are now buying ourselves white sticks that we don't really need to help us cross the road. What a sad thing to have to say. And this development if allowed, without a link road, will generate an additional estimated four hundred cars daily into the town centre. There are other quotes but I will save these for my submission to District Council if needed on the fourth of January. I'd heard it said that th the development of this site has been in the development plan for twenty years Absolutely correct. but I sh I, my opinion is the test we should apply when determining this application surely is, if we were today, nineteen ninety three, preparing a development plan for would we include in the plan this site for development? The answer is an emphatic no, of course we wouldn't. As you know, the application has been withdrawn from the agenda of the coastal planning committee twice in recent weeks. I ask myself, is this delay in any way connected with the decision of the t the developer to appeal to the D O E against the previous refusal of this application? You may wish to draw your own conclusions. Especially when the applicant recently suggested, and I quote, we should not indulge in further procrastination in reaching an early decision on this application. I ask that this impudent remark can only be far from being dilatory, we are being diligent in safeguarding the environment of and the quality of life of the people, and we are not merely interested in financial gain. The fact remains, if this ev development is allowed, it will have an irreversible detrimental effect on the fiscal environment of the town centre and the amenities of the people for generations to come. is being choked and polluted by the motor car, coming specially from large housing estates built on the wrong side of Hear hear requiring travel through the town centre, the town centre that was designed and built for horse-drawn traffic. The development of this site in nineteen ninety three is unacceptable and must be not be approved. We who live in know best and must be heard. Now I can tell you a little, one final remark, I at five thirty this afternoon met Mr, Mr, Councillor, Councillor, Councillor at five thirty to discuss the delay in dealing with this application. The delay was with the approval of District Council at the request of the developer, who asked for time to consider if Hill could be improved. They agreed it will go before the District Council without change on the fourth of January, whatever the decision on County on the improvements, if there are any, to Hill. And they've also agreed that any alteration of the plan will be referred back to this Council for their consideration. Thank you. Thank you Councillor. Councillor? The Town Clerk's just pointed out that their tape recorder's run out and wondered if you would go back to the start and work through all that again. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] It's a joke But this is a very serious matter and difficult to follow Councillor because he's gone through nearly every point. Er, there is just one crucial one I think that I'd like to refer to briefly. What concerns me in particular is how District Council is handling this and I'll come back to that in a moment. The only thing that didn't say was a letter from, Headmaster of the County Primary School. He wrote to, Chief Engineering and Planning Officer. [reading] I read with some concern that a housing development planned for the Valley is to disgorge its traffic on to the Road near the Hill Lane Lane crossroads. Any increase in traffic at that already dangerous crossroads will, I feel, place my pupils at risk. During the twelve years that I've been head teacher at this school I have waited for promised improvements at the crossroads, and in particular the Lane junction. My P T A have re regularly voiced their concerns. Now it appears that no improvements are in the pipeline but increased traffic is. Surely this is prejudicial to all who regularly use the crossroads []. I think touches on er the thing that concerns me most about this this before Yes, we have. Wh what I'd like to suggest, without going through it all again, is that perhaps we could agree to ask the Town Clerk to write to Planning Department and voice our concern at the way this matter is being handled. I didn't want to go through the arguments for and against. I think they've been discussed previously and I think the arguments for refusal are very clear cut. As said, all the District Councillors are opposed to it, I'm opposed to it, and there's very clear cut Highways Authority reasons for refusing, but in spite of that District Council seems to be going out of its way to bend over backwards and, and help the, the applicants for some reason or another, presumably to get this thing through. And a that surprises me and concerns me because when this went to District Council's Environment and Planning Committee first of all speed was of the essence. I mean I, I enquired why it went to the District Council Environment and Planning Committee rather than the Coastal Planning Committee and the one reason I was told was speed, they could get the thing brought up there that much more quickly. A couple of months ago they were pushing it through as quickly as possible. It was shrouded in secrecy at that time. It was held in with the present public excluded but now we seem to have a completely different situation. The one thing that seems to be doing now is to string it out as long as possible. The one thing they seem to be trying to do now is obfuscation and delay er and I think we ought to voice our concern and I hope the Council will agree to ask the Town Clerk to express concern at the way it's being handled. Thank you Councillor. I, I think you've gone through it now. I see no reason for us actually to go through the whole pros and cons. We've made our view quite clear. I think the things that have come out of this for me er from Councillor actually is that it would be unlikely that we, we or would be allocating that plan today and I think the amount of traffic has increased through the town centre would make it foolish and one does wonder at the wisdom if all the development went along which had to be serviced then through er Street and through the town centre in to the main areas of employment that happened years ago. Erm, the other point that I think we should be clear and we should remember, that this Council has still not wavered. We have never gone away from the fact that the town plan and the policy statement in there that if the road was provided the land is in the town plan and this Council would have approved it. I think it is important to remember that if they complied with the properly doc adopted and formulated town plan then the permission would have been granted, obviously subject to details and. That has been our major worry and I think for us now to go away and just allow it to go ahead, twenty years on, without any improvements, without the link road and without improvements to Hill I think is an abdication of our duties and I really do think that. Right, it's been suggested by Councillor that we write a letter to. I think we should express our concern in the way that it's being handled and I think there are grounds for concern and I think must be aware that this Council is watching what they're doing. I mean, we, it was very nearly went through had a meeting which had the press and public excluded and I think it was not handled well at that time from and we should make it quite clear that we are watching and hopefully we do understand the situation. Now, how does anyone else feel about the situation? Chairman, you, you may wish to, with the Council's approval, and your approval, Councillor wishes to make a short statement on this. It might be useful. Someone who again. This is an unusual evening isn't it? Twice in one evening., yes, agreed? Just briefly, I have been correspondence right back erm it's difficult to see why that land was designated for land except that it's agricultural land and erm my point is that the gradient on a lot of the site, especially on the northern erm banks is one in five and one in seven and to build on that would erm well even said that the building would be imponderous so I mean i it just isn't a suitable site, apart from the link road, for, for housing either because the gradient there would, would be very erm difficult from a landscape point of view a there's nothing they could do to improve the till you know the turn of the century and they are and through all the planning papers from nineteen eighty five it is said that that Hill can't be improved so I mean unless they do something erm dramatic, I can't see what they can do, I mean it just isn't a suitable site for development. Right, right. Move back into Council? I take it Yes er no, I'm not taking the planning minutes. I've got to take item, in a minute, item nine I believe. Yes Erm, is it your wish that we would write expressing our concern and would it be possible for us to erm delegate this to Councillor and the Town Clerk, with the Chairman of Planning obviously innit? Would that be in order? I think we should you know make it clear how we stand. Okay? Are we all agreed? Okay?? a personal statement or a Council statement Absolutely yes yes. This is a Council view. So that's Councillor, Councillor, Town Clerk and the Chairman of Planning. Okay? Anyone against? Okay. Thank you very much. Right, with that I'm gonna take you on if you're all agreed, and I think you've already agreed, some of you, most of you, that we go on to item nine. I have to say to you I'd no idea I was doing this this evening so I'm gonna do everything and backup. Right, we're d discussing District Council area wide plan. Erm, many of you will realize that East Devon have been requested er by the Government to prepare these area wide plans rather than just a town plan so they take in and encompass the whole of the area and there was quite a lengthy and substantial document with the, with all the different policy statements on I believe Councillor? Thank you Chairman. Eh eh well the district Excuse me just one moment. I beg your pardon. I wonder could you agree that I signed appendix two? I didn't do this at I didn't know Yes, of course. I'm sorry about that but I did it while was out. Thank you. Okay. The district wide erm development plan will take the place of the individual town development plans. Here is the first draft, a hundred and forty three pages of it. It's a draft document that will be in fact circulated to Town Councils for their opinion and also will have dis on display to the public in the near future. is in section page one one one. It was discussed in detail in a five hour meeting at District Council and after, as I say, remember, it's only a consultation document this time that will be put to you for your decision. I asked that in section fifteen should include, which it doesn't at the moment, the following matters. I asked that the link road from to Lane, which had been omitted, should be included in the town plan and Councillor has written on that matter to District Council and they agreed that it should be. It has not yet been taken out in the statutory town development plan. [whispering] My goodness [] I note that County are preparing a town centre enhancement scheme which they are doing where there's a conflict clearly between the traffic and the pedestrian. That enhancement scheme is being prepared now and reference should be made to it in this document in respect of. The need for an open space, public open space east of the town. That is not included. Policy statements in respect of are fine, Hill, and the prime shopping centre and Lane should be r repeated in the new plan. They've been omitted. There should be reference to the social housing and the cross subsidy housing and the hospital at in the new plan. The plan will be operative from nineteen ninety four to the year two thousand and one. That's what we're talking about. between now and two thousand and one, so we've gotta get these things in. The need for a pedestrian link between school and the. I asked that these, all these matters should be put in and it was agreed. So when it comes before the Council I will let the Town Clerk have this and then it's important that, if the Council agrees, they should be included. Development of a public amenity area in a vicinity and including the formed when the flood alleviation scheme is constructed. This could be delightful. Development of a route to and to dev develop that site as an important town amenity. Continued development and improvement of picnic site should be included. Implementation of the approved resolution on the Coastal Planning Committee, this is an interesting one that they've totally forgotten, implementation of the approved resolution of a Coastal Planning Committee district on the twenty seventh of January that the highway implications which affect the development of the area marked W in the inset plan in fact is. It shall be reassessed as part of the district wide local plan. Would you believe it? And that was approved on the twenty seventh of January ninety three and nothing has happened about it since. The removal of all. Inclusion of lev eleven acres of land at school in the district wide development plan if we, as we hope, is taken out. All of those matters have been omitted. I asked that all of them should be put in. We'll wait and see when the second draft comes to this Council, when the Council will discuss my points and agree or disagree that they should be included or not. Thank you gentlemen. Well I would think the Council would be delighted to have those details in front of it for us to have a full discussion and to make it known but thank you Councillor for all those details. It just shows, I think, how vigilant Councillors need to be when you get all these documents, and you do get many of them if you're a District County Councillor, and how necessary it is for you to read them and study them and to remember because these things are very very important when they're put in when it goes to higher authority at that time. Right, is there anyone else would like to ask anything on the district wide plan to Councillor at this stage? No. So we just ask that these come forward so that the Council can fully discuss this and make our replies to before they're formally adopted? Right. Well, with that, I thank you for my very short er stay in the Chair and er with your agreement we'll ask the Chairman to return. Okay, thank you very much Both together please Have you got any traffic lights? Did you find the draft? Move on to item five on the agenda of the preceding minutes, the planning committee meetings are on Monday the eighth of November and the twenty ninth of November. I presume we've all got a second now, have you? I would like to present them in the absence of both the Chairman and the Vice Chairman of planning so is it your wish that I sign both sets as a true and correct record? Chairman, there's just one little point that I did speak to the Town Clerk and I think the Council should be aware of it. On er folio ninety er regarding Mr agricultural dwelling at. On the first one, folio ninety? Folio ninety. Erm I did say at the time if the Council agreed it was we would approve the new application it would only be if the original was rescinded and I did speak to the Town Clerk so there's no need, I'm not making a big issue, but I think the Council should be aware and the Town Clerk I believe has notified because again this is one of those things that could happen at a later date and as we all know if we haven't made these things perfectly clear. With that amendment, is everybody happy that the minutes are signed? Yes, I've got some questions after though. Okay, that's ninety, ninety one and ninety two, ninety three. Okay, let's take the er, I'll do my best to answer 'em cos I'm not... right, let's take the meeting on the eighth of November. Any questions on that meeting? Any matters arising from that meeting? Yes Chairman. You might have to leave the room again. No, I'm erm, I'm quite happy Correspondence folio ninety, land at school. Oh. Right. Erm your prerogative. Er, yeah, I'm just gonna be safe. I'm gonna, you can chair it from there but I'm gonna do it just to be safe. That's the only one. The remainder doesn't matter. Okay, thanks Thank you very much. Erm, folio ninety, land at School. Correspondence, if you'd all refer to that at the moment actually. In the last sentence erm my view is that we should not wait for an application to build on this site. If it is not included in the district wide local plan for development there can be no development of this site before the year two thousand and one. And I would recommend in fact that action on that should be we ought to visit the site, there's a splendid map I think you've all had, you had in a letter, you had in a letter from a developer to have a look at this map and, and the sites they're talking about actually. Consider the points made in the letter and if the Council agree in principle it's, it's a suitable site for development, advise District Council now that it should be considered for inclusion in the district wide plan now being drawn up. That was one of my points just now actually. It is level, it's available, the developer may provide a, an amenity area, it says so in the letter anyway, for the town, and a route across the river to. We've gotta plan ahead and give District Council our views and not wait. It will be too late. It's gotta go in there. Yes, thank you, I thank Councillor, thank you for that valid. You will recall, and it is in the the client was asked to obtain clarification on their proposals for an improved. There was an offer in the letter if my memory's correct but it didn't actually specify what their offer was and really I think what the Council want to do is exactly what they are offering because we have to be minded all the time that the that er applicant does not own all the land and, and certainly it is, is, is the wish I think of this Council, I believe unanimously, and, and I think a lot of the residents, that we do somehow acquire a pedestrian link. It would be something that would vastly improve I think the, the link of the new hospital to the medical centre without going around over Bridge. It really is something that I would like to see us achieve in the future and if this can be brought forward by meeting the developer down there, then I would be, certainly be in favour of that and I would certainly like, and this is what we said at this meeting, to find out a little more detail of exactly what they were offering but we have to be minded all the time, as I said again, is how we're going to acquire permission to go over one or two different land owners' lands. That's the, that's the point yes That will be the difficulty That will be the difficulty Has the developer responded to that letter by the way? It went off only a couple of days after the meeting. Well we may need a, a, a further letter now. Whether the Council... I, I personally would be quite keen to go down there and see A, and we'd need permission of the land owners, to do this, to see where the link could go across, you know, the best position, so that we, and I believe this is what Councillor is saying, so that we can actually come forward and maybe this ought to be a meeting with the Amenities Committee, maybe the Ramblers and bear in mind as I say again I hate to do these things and the land owner think we're steamrollering 'em into something without their knowledge. I think if you get their backs up before you've even started, it's not a helpful situation is it? But I would very much, with the land owners, like to go down there and see and, and then try and negotiate a possibility for right of way across Yes, I, I think could be approached at this stage. I mean feelings on the matter. If we help the developer, it's wrong to put a path if the other fella's not gonna cooperate. Absolutely We do want it in there Chairman. Would it be a situation if we asked the Town Clerk and er maybe with the Chairman, it's a little bit difficult, I think the Town Clerk at this stage, to speak to and then if it seems possible we could bring it up at the Planning Committee meeting and arrange a date to go down and have a look, when we've actually approached the land owners. I would hate to do it the other way. Do we have a lot of time? Does it say Ya Do you think it might be an idea to speak to the er to first and get their resp so I've got their response I think you Well it's and So that they really mean they're going to do that and then to Mhm I think it would be nice, and then we could actually discuss it at the next planning meeting which I presume, which is the twentieth Twentieth yes Ah ah ah the twentieth fairly big date. I mean, it would be grand for wouldn't Okay. Alright. So we're definitely agreed that we ask the Town Clerk to make those two contacts and to put it on the agenda for the Planning Committee? Would it prudent for me to consider both sets of minutes rather than us get into difficulty? Can I, yeah, can I go on to the application if I may Chairman? I mean it's obvious that I, I was not present, I was not present but the committee itself, and regrettably the Chairman's not here either, of the Planning Committee erm itself got into some difficulty by accepting and voting on a proposal to approve the application subject to the provision of a suitable link road. You cannot, and I, I, I know Councillor and Alderman erm have said this many times, you cannot vote on something not before you. No You can, you can only vote on the application before you. In this case, you can vote on the application without a link road. The Chairman in fact should have a point of procedural rule not to accept the resolution er before you. Erm eventually you've got refusing it but you I imagine you've got yourself in some difficulty f... one further point on this I note you had a section on these minutes. I note you've got a site inspection on the hockey club room but not for the eighty seven houses that may affect for generations, I E. I am a little surprised that the Planning Committee decided to go to look at the hockey club but not eighty seven houses in. Thank you. Yes well I think to answer bo both of yo your concerns, first of all we have to accept that the Planning Committee has, actually has power to make its decisions not to come back to this Council so I'm afraid it is a decision of the Planning Committee. The Chairman at that time decided t to take the motion and proposition and it was against my advice. I actually advised him at the meeting that he should not and couldn't take that motion, and I was by Alderman in that situation, but he still deemed to go ahead and that's p his prerogative. He is, after all, the Chairman of that committee but certainly I advised him against that and I thought it was totally wrong er to do it in the way he did and I, I think it was a shame for this Council that he, that he did go ahead, but there you are. That's to answer that situation. I believe that er we didn't er consider going to look at the development because it was quite clearly in the minds of a large percentage of us that it was contrary to the town plan and so we did not think it was necessary to do that. We did, however, feel it was necessary to go and look at the because we are very aware of, of, of the lighting that affects those properties who've been very patient with the amount of development that's gone on there. I thought that it was very polite that we should go there in the evening and assess for ourselves exactly the harm th the possible harm that it could do to their gardens at the back and and that's why we did that. Thank you Chairman. And indeed Chairman in taking account of those concerns, we did add er a couple of conditions Yes we did. we, we recommended approval subject to conditions and one of those was extra to alleviate the problem of the lighting to nearby properties I think Right. Erm, are there any other matters? And I think we we should do all the planning, don't you? On, then we're gonna need to accept that folios ninety two and ninety three are a correct record? Is that all agreed? Yes Anyone against? No? Are there any matters arising from the minutes of November the twenty ninth? No? And with that I think that covers the planning meetings. Thank you very much This is a funny meeting, isn't it? Thank you very much I didn't realize it would be quite as tricky as this If it had have been, if we'd have known we'd have pulled the tables further, pulled the tables further across that way. Right. You'll have to tell me if I cover anything that you've already done. I think that's very wise. Item six County Council and County Council's reports. I'd like to thank and, I'd like it minuted that I'd like to thank, our Councillors and County Council Councillors because they are getting the reports in now. We are able to circulate these reports and I think that's working extremely well. Has anybody got any questions of the reports from our Councillors? I think Councillor, County Councillor, should refer to the jet out the culvert, there's not a culvert, that's two pipes that takes the water, overflow water across the. The road gets flooded when there's heavy rain and I er I clean it out. I don't want to give the impression that's a road that'll never be flooded again. Quiet people, thank you. Did everybody hear what said? No, afraid not. Right, let's try and talk one at a time now. Can you just say it again please? I just, Councillor says about cleaning out the culvert. It's not a culvert it's two pipes that takes the water in ordinary times, ordinary river level, across the road but if there is heavy rain the ford, you'll find that the ford will be always flooded so er it won't be alleviating th the flooding of the, of that part of the road. I'm sure Councillor will take that on board. Yes okay. I've got one comment. I'm extremely sad to see that the price for glass has gone down by five pounds a ton which results in the er the income from the recycling of glass being halved. It shows what we've been saying for a long time, how fragile the markets in this recycling are, and I still stick to what I've thought all along, that marketing comes first and making the product comes second. Clearly that hasn't been the case. I hope that this gets back on the road because clearly people are starting to put things in the proper places for recycling. Can we just mention there that we did have a problem at the weekend with the paper banks again. I meant to say that to you. There was paper all over the car park again. Okay, anybody got anything of any other reports? Chairman, I, I've got one here actually. I wonder if you would take up this idea of the family tree for generations It is an item a bit further down Oh, is it? Yeah I can tell you I've seen the video. It really is appalling to see and thank goodness it's in black and white, it's not in colour but I'll share that view yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'm actually, I am actually, I've been party, they've been circulating me with the correspondence of the residents' association and I am very worried about this but don't feel, until invited by the residents' association, that we should do any more. Oh no, no, it's District Clearly, clearly, the survey couldn't be carried on in very many parts of the sewer because the pipes are in such bad condition. So, we await developments on that. Well I've now, er I've now arranged a further meeting with Environment Health District Council and the residents' association. Thank you for that. Thank you. Right, any other questions on the Councillors' reports? I think it's proof that they're and well written. Thank you for that.

[speaker001:] [talk in background] [someone speaking but too quiet to hear] [John:] Ah well, he'll tell you about that later. Erm obviously all the information here in the get up of this session is copyright. Now, the defences that we're involved in er are taking conveyance. Your client is alleged to have taken a conveyance. Erm, there's a possibility of dangerous driving as well. Let's look at document two., is that your group? What would you say about document two? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Document two. Right. Section four. Section four what? [speaker001:] Twenty four. [John:] Sorry, twenty four, my mistake. Okay? What does section twenty four require? There's an additional [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] That's not relevant here, is it? Yeah, I think there's some confusion here. Erm, in a civil case the rules of hearsay are basically of little importance because they can almost always be got round. For example, a person compiles a statement under a, that statement can be introduced under cross-section? [speaker001:] Four [John:] Four. right? There is an equivalent section that relates to criminal evidence which allows a, a statement to be introduced but only where the needs, where the, I hate that word, the, where justice requires it to be introduced. And the purpose of that section is to prevent trials becoming paper trials where the prosecution do not call evidence. Now, they call evidence under a section nine, you, you can agree a section nine statement, prosecution statement, but you don't have to, right? And in this case you would not agree to statement being written, say being read out, you wouldn't require him to be present, and it could not be introduced under section twenty four because the court would find that it was in the interests of ju justice that it doesn't. Why is it in the interests of justice that?... Why shouldn't the case be conducted just on cross-examination, because of cross-examination? I mean criminal trials are oral trials where the evidence is given orally so that the witnesses can be cross- examined under a and be judged by the tribunal of fact. Okay?... assume that a prosecution statements will be admissible in themselves and always assume that witnesses will give more evidence. Okay? So will give evidence. If he doesn't want to give evidence that y, alright? So, assuming that he gives evidence any a evidential points? You can't see whether you, you're acting for, what's your attitude to this statement?... Anything in it you're not happy with?... [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Right, what's the problem about that? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] So, sorry, what are you saying exactly? Where are we exactly? Are we at the in the statement? [speaker001:] Pardon? [John:] Whereabouts are we in the statement? [speaker001:] On the second page. [John:] Right, page eight. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] It was who took both cars, okay? [speaker001:] Yeah [too quiet to hear] [John:] Alright. You see what's happened there. That the police have got the witness to erm sign, initial, every line. That's not uncommon. Okey-dokey. What is the state of those statements? It was, he took both cars. [speaker001:] Self-serving statements. [John:] It is indeed a self-serving statement statement, so, so what does that give us? [clears throat]... If you were to characterize this, this interview, what would you call it?... It's a text. By who? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Part of the confession is a self-serving part, it's a er, possibly mixed statement. Er, in which he blames somebody else, okay? What is the effect of that?... Against who? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Against your client? Yes? Do you agree with that? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] No. Why not? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Right, the confession is only admissible against the maker. The statement implicating is not admissible against. Now, when the police officer when the police officer comes to court and goes through this statement, and it's a confession, what would you normally call what he's reading out?... I heard say suppose I [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] It's hearsay. But why does it have to be that? It's an exception to the hearsay rule. The confession is an exception to the hearsay rule. Okay? But it's an exception to the hearsay rule that only applies against the maker. Because it is something made against your own interest. Erm, the rule of evidence is that it is inherently unlikely that anybody would make a statement against their own interest unless it was true. Right? You might very well say that you were the greatest law lecturer in the world, because people tend to say these things about themselves. It would be unlikely that you would say that you were the worst law lecturer in the world unless you were. Okay? it's a statement against your own interest. This is a separate argument from whether you actually made the statement or not, or whether it was bullied out of you like in the case. But if you did genuinely make that statement it's more likely to be true if it's against your interest, rather than for your interest. Okay? If a double-glazing salesman tells you that his product is crap, believe him. Alright? Get worried if he tells you it's very good. Okay? Right. Because of that reason the confession is admissible against yourself as an admission, as an exception, to the hearsay rule. It is not admissible against the. [speaker001:] Does that mean that the parts that are inadmissible are stuck out and you can give evidence only to the parts that are not self-serving? [John:] What do you think? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] What would be the point of the evidence if it's not implicating in trial? There's no point. The whole thing. Now, if the police think that this aspect of the case is important to them, how would they get the evidence in? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Oral testimony of? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] , call. Okay?... Can give evidence about trial? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] What other circumstances? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Good. Yes. Relevant point. Here is, he's pleading guilty. What he's pleading guilty, he is competent to give evidence against. His evidence is then direct evidence. I saw do this. Okay? It is no longer hearsay. You no longer have to bring it within an exception. Yes? Not easy, this stuff. Not easy. Alright, now. I now want to go to back to the beginning of the statement. When you are dealing with statements, you must start off and go through it step by step and not leap ahead. Now, is there anything in the first paragraph that anybody thinks raises an evidential point? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] I think so. I can tell a race when I see one. Erm, I go to Silverstone to see races for two reasons. One, because they are advertised as that race and two, I see them dashing around the track. I think that's irrelevant. Okay? Anything else?... First paragraph? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Erm, yes. I can probably say I asked the driver for his. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Yes [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] I think cross-examine him. Are we happy about cross-examining, do you think? Yes? Great, yeah, that's cross- examining.. Yes? No problems about cross-examining him? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] We, if you comes and gives evidence against us, then we can either show that he's incorrect in a substantive way, or we can attack his credibility. How might we attack his credibility? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] He's got previous convictions, right. We know about that. No problem about bringing up his previous convictions? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Right, we lose our shield. We have a shield under the which prevents the prosecution in a normal case from bringing to the attention of the court the fact that we have previous convictions. We are a, an innocent man until we are shown to be guilty. However, if we don't and we say we're lily white but the prosecution solicitor, prosecution witnesses, are all bent, then we lose that shield and they can say, hey you're not lily white, you're bent as well. Right. So, if gives evidence, having become competent because he has pleaded guilty, erm, then we can cross-examine him, but we are in difficulties if we then bring up his previous convictions attack his credibility. In the same way as you lose your shield whenever you attack a prosecution witness. So, for instance, if you have an argument with the police er on a matter, you might very well have to say to the police, I think officer you were take that and say you're a lying bastard. If you take the latter point of view but you will also put your client's character. Okay? If your client has good character, fine, if he's got bad character. What is the best tactical way of dealing with your client's bad character? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Now... second paragraph? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Maybe. You don't really know how he had this information. It appears to be hearsay of some sort and therefore is erm inadmissible. What would you do about that if you were at court acting for your client? that paragraph from the earlier comments. Er, what would you do? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] You could have a trial. I would suggest that that is not very helpful. If you have a trial within a trial in the crown court, what happens? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] If you have a trial within a trial at the magistrates court, what happens? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Yeah. and deal with your objection and then puts it out of their mind if they find that the evidence is inadmissible, doesn't work. Right. So it's very important that you avoid magistrates court. Why can't you avoid the magistrates court in this case? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Erm, he did have the right to that trial for erm what the previous offence before taking conveyance which was a clock taken without the owner's consent and previous offence before that taking but in order to reduce costs right mainly because they also want at the same time to remove the right for theft ah and they failed. That is, of course, because people who steal biscuits from are usually are usually middle class etcetera etcetera but people who steal cars generally tend to be toerags, I think the expression is, erm and therefore nobody much cares. Right. So they lost their rights in that trial very bad idea. So how would you get round that? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Good. pointing out the evidence that you think is inadmissible and any reasonable will the police officer doesn't refer to it. Okay? I'm still interested in paragraph one. You, you looked at this over the weekend and thought there's not much in this, is there? Hopefully you'll think again... he's stating, I'm for it now. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Distress... it could be I suppose. It is intimately connected with the offence. Does anybody understand exception to the hearsay rule? He could be, but what is it really? Does anybody know? It's not really hearsay. No, because he's not actually admitting anything. I mean, if the police stop you on the motorway, you know you're for it, whether you've done anything or not. You'll certainly have an unpleasant few minutes... [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] True. It's admissible only reaction. The same as when you're charged you're asked if you have anything to say reaction only and not hearsay. Remember that hearsay is a statement, oral or written, made outside of court, introduced into court for the, in order to show that it's true, okay?... you look completely gobsmacked. [speaker001:] I am. Why would it be hearsay anyway? [John:] Because it's certainly a statement made out of court because or he's making it with reference to something else. Ah. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] If it's oral yes. [speaker001:] That would be hearsay. [John:] It would not be simply direct evidence, yes. Alright... makes his confession, let's assume at the moment that it is admissible and gives evidence. Anything about the statement itself, or, or the interview itself, that you would object to on behalf of? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Why do you object to that? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] It's. It's completely inadmissible. Okay? Unless what? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Sure, this is where I, this is where erm I must say that I never quite understood this, but if the prosecution witnesses, in their statements or in their oral evidence, refer to your client's bad character, then that is inadmissible, completely inadmissible. Right. If you then cross-examine them and attack their credibility your shield goes in and then after that your previous good character, but only in the context of you being cross-examined by the prosecution. Right. So at no stage would this ever go in. At no stage would this reference ever be admissible because it's not going to be relevant after your shield's gone in because your shield going in relates to the questions understanding be agree or correct me but this is how I understand the situation. So references to bad character are never admissible. There are other references to bad character here. showed me how to do it. It was 's fault, he made me do it. Okay? Var various other pathetic. What about? Are you happy with his treatment at, at the police station? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Why not? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] No record of the tape at all. Erm, or what else, crucially?? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] , more further crucial problem?... Were you arrested and taken to the police station and cautioned? Erm [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] What's the fir who's the first manifest you see? It's the custody sergeant, okay, the custody officer, the custody officer. So in so far as that affects the confession it may mean that it could be removed but that's really completely irrelevant to you because erm that's his confession, not evidence against him. If he comes to court, what happened at the police station doesn't matter because he'll then give direct evidence, not what he said in the police station but what actually happened on that night in the, in the estate. Does everybody follow that? Is anybody confused? Do you want me to go through that again? [speaker001:] So the fact that there was no solicitor [too quiet to hear] relevant in this case because the whole confession isn't relevant to [John:] It may be very very relevant to what happens to but with regard to your client, this statement is not evidence against him because his confession is admissible only against the maker. If he turns up for court and he says, yes I had a terrible time at the police station and there were all sorts of breaches of but I am now here on a, I'm gonna tell the truth, that's no problem. It's the evidence he gives on oath what matters. What happened before is irrelevant. Yes? Okay. Right. Let's go on to document three. We want to go through that line by line so [clears throat] [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Erm, what were the words you'd complain about? [speaker001:] Erm, not necessarily complain but interview police officer about when he was told that upsets my mother [John:] Sorry, am I, oh yes, yes you're absolutely right. [speaker001:] Is that it? object to, it's just a point which we thought about raising later on. We might be able to just [too quiet to hear] [John:] So the rest of the paragraph you're obviously happy with? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear]... [John:] Anybody else? Anybody? Any comments?... A woman came to the door who I, whom I recognized as, 's mother. She said, oh my God, they've come for. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Hearsay exception relates to the state of mind of the defendant. What the relevance of [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] what? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Well, what can you primarily infer from the words? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Guilt, or?... Conviction surely, known to the police? He recognizes her but how, how many er, let me put it this way, if the police came to your house to talk to your mother, would you expect them to recognize her, or would you expect him to say, oh my God they've come? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You may or may not. It would seem to show that er is known to the police. Okay? On the face of it, the argument I think is this, the words, oh my God he's come for are hearsay, sorry, are not hearsay, because although they're an out of court statement they're not introduced as the truth. They're just reported speech. Okay? But they are almost certainly excluded by common law. Does anybody know the common law principle? This may well be for those of you who did in fact agree. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] I don't think that the erm go into this properly and I don't, I think will have dealt with it in lectures, but essentially there's a common law principle that says if a matter is more prejudicial than evidential it should not be read. Here it may be that er it's important to say er what she said value or what relevance it has to the trial of the son anyway. But let's say he did. It clearly is highly prejudicial and therefore whatever spurious relevance it may have should be waived against prejudicial, in fact should be excluded. Okay?... Right., your client is interviewed, document four, are you happy with the contents? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Any other reasons for not being happy?... Anybody else? Any other? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] erm, possibly drunk or possibly. Okay, problems, problems here. So what? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Is that what you're worried about? Is that what you wanna do here? Do you want to it? Why do you want to it?... [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] It's not. It's not a paid profession and therefore the exclusion of this statement under section six two is irrelevant. This is not a confession. Is there anything here that constitutes anything approaching a confession?... [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] this, this is about being in lines. If you had it numbered, you could refer to a number. What page are we on? [speaker001:] Er, page eleven [too quiet to hear] It's twenty eight and sixty eight. [John:] . What, the man said, I'll get you for this? Right. Is that a confession? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] was convicted on the murder of after the judge ruled that a statement to the police was admissible. The statement he made was, you say you've got witnesses but none of them will give evidence against me. Okay? That was held to be a confession. Now. Okay, fair enough, it was turned over on appeal eventually erm but erm it was a bit of a miscarriage of justice being kept in prison for that period of time until it was overturned pleaded guilty to another murder but that's by the by. Potentially, the bastard I'll get him for this, could be a confession. It's pretty iffy but it is fairly ambiguous, isn't it? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] But the problem is if this is taken out of context with the rest of the statement, the judge might leave it to the jury. I don't think it would be right to do so. The judge should exclude it. So, what you have to argue is that that is not a confession. If it is not a confession the whole statement isn't a confession. it is, other than that. Is the statement admissible?... Can detective constable come to court, show the jury, hand out to the jury the statement which would stand up in court? No. Why not? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] And? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Good. It is not an exception to the rule... gives details of alibi witnesses. What should the police do about those alibi witnesses?... [speaker001:] Find them. [John:] Find them, check 'em out. Let's look at er document five. Okay?, do you want to deal with that? Comments in that should tell you that is retired. He's unemployed and retired, in his sixties. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] I do understand the expression, to know by sight. The Oxford University Library should be worried, but I said what about his sight? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] I should, I should warn you that it's best to say that only witnesses perhaps have problems with their sight, not that they are senile. Because. Alright? So, there are problems about the identification. It's a case. What is the effect of that? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Now, in some situations, the magistrate might say there's so little value in the evidence here that I won't hear it all, I'll just exclude it. Is this such a case? Is the I D evidence so weak? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] He's identified him in the I D. Is the identification, does the identification at the I D parade strengthen the original identification? It really does. If you think about it, if you have a fleeting glimpse of somebody, you then identify that person at the I D parade, you will, the quality of your identification is now higher than it was in the fleeting glimpse. Yes? The fact that you've made your I D not corroborative evidence [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] evidentially corroborative evidence is really supportive evidence. What would the supporting evidence, supporting evidence mean here? It can't be another identification. Or could it be?... is with him at the end of the day only evidence against is weak identification evidence then the case would have been thrown out. [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Sorry? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] So, the court other evidence. One possibility is a failed alibi. The equivalent to being caught lying. What is the other possible corroborative or supporting evidence here? , the evidence of the co-accused if he's pleading guilty. Of course, if you were to give evidence, what would the co what would the magistrates do? They'd warn themselves. They'd have to warn themselves. I warn you. Yes, I warn you, I warn myself. Completely ridiculous but that is how it works. Now, what about the next one? Six... young. What points do you make about young? [speaker001:] [too quiet to hear] [John:] Well, she. [speaker001:] Erm [John:] Are you happy with this statement? Well already happy with it. What's the effect of this statement?

[Graham:] All here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Well, before we start, once again, we're on air. Recorded by, what's it called? The Corpus, [speaker002:] Erm, British Corpus. [Graham:] British Corpus. That's, best language, best behaviour, this evening. That's a microphone. [speaker002:] Incredible. This is new, you've gotta explain, cos I was a bit concerned last night, unless you know about it. Yeah, what is what is the reason behind this? [Graham:] It's M I Five. [speaker002:] Collaborate. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] It was the, the British Corpus asked us if we would be willing to record the last council meeting, because they wanted to, erm, get dialects and accents and use of words from different parts of the country, and they were so enthralled by our display, they've asked for a further two meetings. So we did last night's, and now we're doing tonight's. [speaker002:] And they couldn't understand the vocabulary. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Yeah, we had too many oohs and ahs. [cough] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] There's two more. [Graham:] I think there's no real point to, to start them with before, is there? Seeing as we're gonna ask young ladies to, to talk. [speaker002:] Only thirty second early. [Graham:] Right, well, good evening, ladies, gentlemen and members of the public, and erm, the first thing I'd like to do is to ask the youngest of the young ladies at the end of the table, who have come to talk to us, and I'm not quite sure, let me guess which one, but I reckon that that's Miss and, and that's Miss. Have I got it right? So we've got, I did have the first names somewhere. Katy an Katy and Amy. That's Katy, no Amy and Katy, who gonna talk to us about project they're doing, which is called a dog called Mock. Okay, so ov over to you two. [speaker002:] You ready? [LAUGHTER] No, [] Well, the book in her own time, produced these eight books of which four we're going to put into print. Perhaps you'd like to pass them are you, erm, [crackling] you could have a look at them. The teachers felt that they'd put so much effort into it, that it er, should be taken a stage further, [people talking] and, perhaps go towards printing, and to this end, they erm, approach from John. Er, this entails erm, producing a book exactly the same size as the Trade Directory. It will have the same feel to the cover, forty pages and er [paper rustling] contain four of the stories. Erm, to this end, we need about six hundred pounds for the printing, and then all the proceeds will go towards the legal and also to buy additional equipment for the primary school. Erm, it's their last year at the primary school so it would nice to leave a couple of benches or something like that behind, for the old'uns to sit on. But it's all their own work, they're at the moment re-drawing every single page of the four stories that will be in the book, and I think that Amy's got, this is the work in progress. Erm, the book here is the one that she's working on at the moment. Some stories they've chosen to use. And you can see actually [phone rings] [phonecall starts] Hello, So they've all Yeah. Got to be re-drawn in black and white, that'll be gone over Hello, okay, my love, yeah, I will do finish, okay, okay, fine, see you then, Happy Christmas, bye [phonecall ends]. putting a lot more detail in, rather than, any Beano Annual you should buy, there is always things in the background that draw you eye in to the picture, so Amy's putting a lot more detail into the picture as it coming up for re-drawing. Erm, we've got to set out, haven't we, Amy? And as I say, Bill is doing it all at cost, so, you know, he's not making anything out of it, himself. Erm, we've got a few sponsors, and also a few places that people have agreed to sell the book and display, so Nurseries, Redferns, Malcolm, College Bookshop, Toy and Candy, erm, a bloke from Manchester Insurance has given me a couple of days to sell the book out there. At the lunchtime, they've got a big social club, erm, and all main hospital fund raising coffee mornings and events will be able to sell the book there. So, you know, there is an end to the product, we can see when... [Graham:] And,an and, and in our Portsmouth Information Centre. [speaker002:] Great, that would be lovely, yeah. And I also hoping to contact the Parent Teacher Association, of the schools that the hospital will service, and see if they will sell the books at their stall as well because it's all to benefit... hospitals, you see. So there are outlets. [Graham:] We hmm, now, young ladies, how long have you been working on this? A year? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] And erm, how much time do you spend on it? [speaker002:] They te it, they tend to do a lot like in the holidays and half term, when they can get together, because obviously there are other demands on them with Brownies and Guides and stuff like that. But it's really when you're together, you work on them more, don't you? [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Right, the production cost is say six hundred pounds, right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] And you've raised some sponsorship. [speaker002:] We've raised about two hundred, just over two hundred. [Graham:] Great. Has anybody got any questions for these young ladies, or their mums? [speaker002:] Can sponsor money? [Graham:] Sorry? [speaker002:] That they would raise as a sponsor what to give, or, give us some idea, what er, Yeah, they, they've got sponsorship down beneath the two hundred pounds. [Graham:] Paul. [Paul:] They seem to work very hard on these. Have you any idea how many books you might actually sell? [speaker002:] Erm, we're no we're not sure about selling. I mean, this, the six hundred pound will produce one thousand books. That gives us the potential of raising two thousand pounds, because we intend to sell them for one ninety nine. We've been told if we go over the two pound, they won't sell, sell so well, erm, so really I'm not too sure, but er, I, I can work on bigger, er, like I got this couple of days off living Manchester, I'm sure if I approach erm, you know, the police, they might give me a couple of days selling out there. [Graham:] Can I [speaker002:] I'm sure of ways and means. Mm. [Graham:] can I ask you, it's a thousand pounds to sell two hundred and fifty of each of the four? [speaker002:] No. No, this book, well it's [Graham:] Will... [speaker002:] two thousand of this book which contains the four stories [Graham:] Contains the four of th oh, right, that's fine. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [Graham:] So, what we've got is four of these books that will go and condense into one copy, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] and two thousand copies of, a thousand copies of that. [speaker002:] One thousand of this, yeah. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] Yeah, Same size. [car horn] [Graham:] Who's gonna pick which four go in, then? [speaker002:] They both are. [Graham:] They both are. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] And have you got any ideas which ones they are? [speaker002:] Yes, Gail, you show them. that one. please. and er, this one. That's the one where it's properly drawn up, is it? Yeah, and the dog show. And the dog show. And the seaside one. And the seaside. and the seaside. [Graham:] Right, have we got any timescale on this? [speaker002:] Erm, yes. It will be produced by Easter. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] Yeah, we've drawn out deadlines for the books to be copied and, and it will be launched at Easter. Erm, colours. Er, we've got black and white with three other colours. Er, blue red and yellow, which mixed together should also give us purple, green and pink. So we're probably talking about eight different colours. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] We thought if anybody. [Graham:] Right, now. First thing, I wanna thank you for coming in. I wanna thank you for the initiative you've shown. I can't tell you till we've had our meeting what we're gonna decide. Whatever happens, we wish you very well. I think I speak for everybody and say that we wish you well in this project. And if either mum likes to phone in, or come into the office tomorrow, by tomorrow you'll know what we can do, or if we're gonna do anything to help you. Okay. Right, so we won't keep you waiting. We'll get it sorted tonight. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. [Graham:] Okay. Thank you for taking the time and come to see us. Anyway, I think these young ladies deserve a round of applause for what they've done so far. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Graham:] Don don't to be afraid to come and see us again, alright? It's quite nice to have people here. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We'll be selling copies next time. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Right before we actually st [paper rustling] plans, please. Now, before we, again before we start the actual meeting proper, I've invited Carol along, you'll see that we've got er, oh sorry, for those who don't know Carol. leading night in Rio. And you'll see we've got an application up for Rio tonight. We thought it would be a good opportunity for Carol to come along and tell you, as quickly as she can, [speaker002:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] where we've got to with our recycling initiative, and then we can look at that grant in the light of what we've been told by Carol. [speaker002:] Okay. I'll sit round here and you can see me. Right, just like reading that through, I'll give you the Readers Digest version, and then you can ask me any questions to fill in, there's er, quite a bit to tell. We started off about a year ago, looking at recycling that's available in which is just basically the paper, cans and glass out at the park car park. We thought, there's a lot more that you can do. There's a lot more that you can do than this. How can we go about doing it? We thought that the site over at the station centre would be good as a shop outlet and as office space for recycling, and that the site behind it would be a good place to keep all the stuff until it can actually be recycled, erm, so we identified the site to start with, then we started looking at what's actually possible as op opposed to desirable. To this end we had a feasibility study written by Ken who is Devon's Community Recycling Network Coordinator. His study took three months to prepare and, considers the markets available, it considers things like recycling credits that the councils can give you. It looks at other initiatives similar to the one that we're planning, and Derek has got a copy of that, if anyone would like details, on any of that. The next thing we did was starting to support and run it, of course. So far, we've got support from Waste Watch which is a Department of the Environment's er recycling group. They've sponsored us a consultancy, They twinned us they've twinned us as it were, with a town called Wye, which is a similar size to Ottery St Mary in every respect. And our consultant has been running varied recycling for the last four years, and they are currently recycling seventy percent of the waste in that town. That's as against a national average of about five percent. So obviously this consultancy gives a lot of good ideas, and a lot of very practical advice, because they were actually doing it. We've been to visit him, he's back to visit us, and he's available to us on the phone for a year, and all of that's covered by this Department of the Environment. In terms of hard cash, we've applied to the Community Council of Great Britain, and their Rural Action Project, and they've promised us two thousand pounds as an actual funding, so as and when funding becomes available from councils or from private sector or from our own efforts, they match that pound for pound as we go along. Er, other money is being raised from local businesses, we've got support from Otter Nurseries and we've got support from as well. Who are local support. As far as council support goes, we've been granted the use of both the station centre itself, so that we can have a retail outlet for furniture, bric-a-brac, books, the kind of thing that might go to landfill, but which people might very well want to use. And that would also give us office space which would give us a headquarters for a recycling education group, which would go out to schools, to councils, to Brownie groups, to [crackling] to anybody who might be interested in recycling, what they can do, how they can it better. Erm, that would all be based in the station centre, erm, as I say, we've also been granted permission to use the site behind and planning permission is on the way through now, that's looking good. We've got support of social services, who actually own the access onto that site. They're obliged to charge us a certain amount for access, but they're talking about giving us that money back as a grant. So all of, all of that is under way. Er, what do we need now? Well, it's all very well saying you're gonna recycle things, you've gotta have something to keep them in. We looked into all sorts of different buildings, and [crackling] that would be suitable, and we've decided the best thing is on the shipping containers, they're water proof, they're vandal proof, and they're recycled as well, which helps. We are looking at a cost of about five hundred pound for these, plus two hundred pound shipping charges, and we're going to need four or five of them. At the moment, we've got, Devon County Council's Recycling Working Party who are very likely to be paying our site's rental charges, for at least the first year to get us off the ground. Er, I can't say definitely yet, [sniff] because the meeting comes up after this meeting, but I've had a lot of positive noises. East Devon District Council has looked at the paperwork and has realized that the Community Council is going to match anything that they give, so I've spoken to their recycling officer and he thinks that the way the budget is, we're very likely to get one of the containers from them, which would be matched by another from the Community Council. So, basically what I'm here to ask you for this evening is your support of the project, and specifically, if the town council could buy us another one of these shipping containers. Then we effectively double their money, because that would give us the fourth and final one that we do need to set up and start operating. [paper rustling] In the long term we'd like to go on, and build a workshop, make our own recycle refurbish electrical goods, because, obviously, this is something a bit more in capital intensive, and it's something we're looking at it in the future. [shuffling of papers] [Graham:] Thank you. [speaker002:] That's it. Mm. [Graham:] Questions. [speaker002:] Out of that Mhm. Would you recycle goods or whatever you like to call it? No. Have you any? Yeah. Erm, last week we consulted Devon County Council, we sell it for peanuts, unfortunately now, because the market as we know, with people being keener on to the recycling plus products flooding in from Germany creating products. Er, from the sound business point of view, we can only recycle glass, because we get what are called recycling credits, which is that the County Council gives us fifteen pounds a ton at the moment. That's going up April of next year. For everything that we collect. So they will take the glass and they will pay us recycling credits for that. Newspaper, difficult one, generally, but we're lucky in that we've got a place down in Exmouth that shred this all up for animal bedding, and they'll take that, and again we'll get recycling credits, so although it's low value in terms of the actual material, it attracts this big recycling credit so so a subsidized market, if you like. Aluminium cans, can only start at seven hundred pounds a ton. Steel cans, you can just about cover the costs of it. You mentioned all the figures that you can Yes, yes. You mentioned Germany. Sorry? Germany has a big problem, hasn't it? Germany does have a big problem. They are, they are the top recyclable nation in the world. That's right. Well, the problem is that they They have so much, they can't get rid of it. That's it. The problem, the problem with Germany is, as you say, they're flooding the market, they've, they've gone at it from one end only. You know, they thought, recycle things, marvellous, they've got people separating their waste, they're collected separately, and then they, oh well, now what, oh we'll ship it to England. Invasion. You, you go somewhere over Philippines, and you've got land sites full of glued up old recyclable German plastics. they do with it, I agree. It's a... But do you think you can compete with that? Yes. Because, as I say, we've got recycling credits on our side, we've got the fact that we've got this outlet in Exmouth which will take the paper, and that's why we're looking at producing this workshop area, so that a lot of this stuff that goes to landfill, I'm talking about, fridges, tables, whichever else that can be repaired and reused er, I know this is only on a very small scale, but one of the things that I think is very important with is that we're not purely a recycling centre, we also want to set an education project, to raise people's awareness of what yo yet waste production isn't about recycling, it's about not producing it in the first place, That's right, yes. and the more people are aware of that. It's not a question of how good it is to recycle several tons, it would be better still not to produce it. So I think that's er, an important part of it. We've actually had a recycling paper project going on over the last couple of months, which made paper out of shredded newsprint and then made Christmas cards out of them. They sold those on the profit for Rio. So it's, it's small things like that which although on their own, as we didn't recycle but for all those people who bought cards and the people they send them to are, are now aware, that they need to create a market. [Graham:] Thank you. Anybody else? [speaker002:] can you ask, ah, sorry,wh what products do you actually recycle? You mentioned glass and paper. Glass, paper, cans, steel, scrap metal, generally. Timber which can either be good usable furniture, or furniture that can be repaired, which can go straight back out to anybody who wants to buy them. We've also got [cough] through Social Services, and Honiton, who are desperate serving source of furniture, and you just see it going on top of the estate cars going down towards all the time. If we can divert that back into Social Services, that'll be instantly reused. Waste oil can be collected, and we can re-sell that to be used as fuel oil. Er, scrap timber can be stacked up at one side, and used as firewood. Erm, textiles have a high re-sale value. Even if we did something like jumble sale clearance, and get people's old clothes, you could sell that for about a hundred pounds a ton. Erm, off the top of my head. We're not going to be touching plastics, because the market isn't in place yet. Just create a problem for ourselves at the moment. As and when the market develops, we might look at that. Erm. [Graham:] Will you restrict what's, how, how are you collecting, people bring it to you, or will you actually... [speaker002:] Yeah. The idea is to make it a bring facility at the moment, which is why we like the station centre and the yard behind it, because people tend to drive out that way as they go to Exeter and back. Wh wh what are the problems with throwing out plastic dustbins full of rubbish and just dumping it on your doorstep, and finding it unusable? Well, that's obviously one of the problems with a recycling centre. We've done quite an extensive survey around Ottery, looking at the times people use these facilities, and the weekends, especially Saturdays, is the favoured time. What we're planning to do in the very early stages, is to have the site staffed on a Saturday, and have people there, so we can actually turn away rubbish. We will have a skip on site, so that any rubbish that accidentally sneaks through, can be put in there, and that's something we've budgeted for, the fact that we will have to remove rubbish. Because I think you will have a real problem, coming on board now is, finding a building place. [Graham:] Devon waste money on controlling tips in Devon. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] They're raising their fees, restricting what you can tip there. [speaker002:] That's right. [Graham:] And then, a lot of these skip hires, do an awful lot of domestic [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] erm, skips, and I think what we ought to do is, if you can travel, deter people from having skips at home, and I, I think if, if you set up there, you'd be... [speaker002:] But there again, if you look at the number of building sites outside people's houses, and the amount of stuff in there, that just breaks my heart to see it all go into landfill. You've got bricks, which can be reused, you've got timber which can be reused. [Graham:] Right, right, well you say that but it's [speaker002:] right highly unlikely. [Graham:] Right. Thanks,. Anyone else got a question? Okay, Carol, thank you for the time you've given to us to see it. [speaker002:] Well, thank you for listening. [Graham:] Right, erm, obviously we'll come to our deliberations as we go along. [speaker002:] Right oh. [Graham:] Okay, and, and we will be asking you back at regular intervals. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. [Graham:] Alright. [speaker002:] Thank you. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] Thanks a lot [Graham:] Thanks for your time. [speaker002:] Well, thanks for yours, I hope you... I know how precious it is at meetings. [Graham:] Right. Okay.. Well, can we get down to business. Town Clerk to receive apologies. [speaker002:] Erm, Councillors, and. [Graham:] , and, right. Item two, under the, go on to grants now. Reports of correspondence. [speaker002:] No, I've got er, no er, reports, in fact. Oh yes, I can report, I phone erm erm my work today, about the place save, because I'm obviously very concerned about that. I met up with her two and three times, to see where we're at. And apparently the firm that she ordered the thing from in the first place had been er, re-set up. I don't know whether it's exactly the same company, or whether it's erm, brackets nineteen ninety three or whatever it is. But it has some of the same staff, with a new manager director and so on. She apparently phoned him shortly before I spoke to her today, and she's got an assurance that she'll get her money back. So, this is to be hoped for, and he, he's guaranteed reconciliation by the thirty first of this month. So she was writing to him at the time I telephoned. He's getting the letter and has promised that action will be taken, so I, it's only words at the moment. [Graham:] Right, hopefully, I think we must take this as erm, part B agenda item at the main council meeting. Because we've got to get this sorted out, because if we don't, the, the end of the year will be, any enhancement money, be lost won't it? [speaker002:] Yep. [Graham:] So we've really got to get, put some, we'll take that as a part B in, in, in the January meeting. [speaker002:] I was slightly alarmed when we got that copy of the Tipton Times, and there was a fire inside it, begging people to come forward for the er [Graham:] And that was no chairman, no secretary, no treasurer in the organization. [speaker002:] And perhaps there was only [Graham:] There were erm, what I think, you know, things were not as they seem. However, we're in a situation now, we've got to rectify, so I think that's the only course of action we can take. See what comes by the end of the month. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] And then, do something, even if it means calling her in I'm not afraid to call her in [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] for part three of the meeting, [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] erm, and take it like that. [speaker002:] Said she's guaranteed to phone me before the next council meeting, so that we know what we're doing, so I'll keep at her. [Graham:] Right. Fine. We're going to erm, item three, the supermarket applications, now under youth grants, you remember that we advertised, this is the money we precepted, which we won't be using for the detached youth work workers' scheme. Plus the rebate that we had from that project. The total we've got, er, available to us, to support mainstream, and different youth activities is six thousand, one hundred and thirty two pounds. And that's precepted to use by March of ninety four. Okay. I must say, I've been pleasantly sur you know ve pleased, by the number applications from youth activities that have come through. The first one on our list tonight, ah, one seven nine, is for the young ladies that we've just seen, with a production of their book, A Dog Called Mock, and I think that we er, talked about this, and asked them to come in, because we wanted to know the substance, and whether this thing was actually taking place, and what was, I, I, I don't know what the rest of you feel, I think they made a fine presentation, and it's obviously something which is going ahead, and I hope that some of you feel, we should reward initiative. Comments. [speaker002:] Well, I, I think Mr Chairman, they've done a fair job in there. The work they've put in, erm, and obviously, if you give your support to erm, make them a grant, it's basically a grant for adults. Because a lot of the profits, that would er, be generated by this book is being put back into Yeah, I, I Er, in a way... [Graham:] I, I like the idea they're gonna raise six hundred pound wherever they can, then all the money they raise, they can sell the books for is going back into the community. [speaker002:] Mm. Sorry, did I miss out on something, that, didn't they say who they were selling it to? Presumably parents, but [Graham:] Yeah, well I suppose any, I mean if they go to London or Manchester or, or er I, I think they're gonna produce something rather like th the books you buy for your kids when they're young, you know. [speaker002:] Sort of Nanette Newman books, they're very similar. I've got one of two of those at home, and they're very similar. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Oh, I do like that. [LAUGHTER]. Right, well, [speaker002:] That's four hundred quid, weren't it [Graham:] Yeah, I'd like to propose for maybe about two hundred. [speaker002:] Oh, that's what I'd been thinking, fifty percent of what they want. [Graham:] Fifty percent of what they've got left. That means, they've raised a third, we've given them a third, and they got a third to raise. All in fa all in favour? [speaker002:] It's getting used to thinking that somebody's doing something for 'em. [Graham:] Well, I think we can actually get a bit in the newspaper with this one. Right. All agree? [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] Thank you very much. Number one eight four. Tipton Scout Troop, erm, basically we, we have helped Tipton Scout Troop before, was it last year? [speaker002:] No, it was this year. [Graham:] This year. We've given them five hundred pounds. Remember John and I went on a, a visit down to see their hut and to be honest, they were making a very good job of the hut, what they come in for, is er, a second bite, really, erm, they've got to, to [LAUGHTER] floor the roof [] which we er, thought was quite interesting. I think what they mean is, they're putting a floor, well, I know what it means, they're putting a floor so they can store stuff across the erm, [speaker002:] Roof space. [Graham:] yeah, you know, [speaker002:] Is the roof flooring. [Graham:] That my floor, yeah. [speaker002:] I call that a ceiling, but that's a second [Graham:] That's right, yes and t to, to line the walls, and paint the exterior, they've got virtually, well they got nine hundred and fifteen pounds' worth of work they need to do to the hut. They've actually asked us for five hundred. I thought that see as we've given them five hundred before, perhaps you'd consider giving them, perhaps two hundred and fifty this time. Any comments? [speaker002:] Can I raise a question. It's the same old thing I'm, I'm what, I'm called a coordinator, it's all good saying we're gonna put a mezzanine floor in one of those, you've got to line the building out. Is there any specification going with it? [Graham:] Well, all I can say was, I been, seen the building, and there were a lot of the work was being done under supervision of David under a community project, and for the amount of money they're talking about, three hundred pound, they're not going to put a mezzanine, I mean what they were doing, is gonna put something across the trusses so they can store something there, aren't they? I mean, it's a, it's a wooden prefab type hut, it's very hardy done, concrete floors, they've made a good job of it. Erm, and we have got six thousand pounds to spend. [speaker002:] Yep. I don't want to give up work, but [Graham:] Yeah [speaker002:] can the building support it? I mean, I seen people [Graham:] Support it? [speaker002:] Well string timbers up and you build it up, and the whole lot comes down. [Graham:] Yeah, well all I can say, is that I've seen the building and I would I would think th that it's no problem. I mean, I haven't done a detailed survey on anything, but I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw when I went in there, and I must say, I went there expecting it to be no more than a garden hut. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] Right. I mean,pi pity that John isn't here because he can, can ver I said take your points, but then I mean, the other two jobs I don't think there's any problem with them. [speaker002:] Even though you say there wasn't, could you, could you fund them money after that? [Graham:] Oh, I don't think we are. I mean, tonight, there was, paint the walls was six hundred and fifty pounds, [speaker002:] Well, that's, yeah. [Graham:] and we're talking about two hundred and fifty pound towards that. [speaker002:] I'd like to go along with it, but I think it's an area that ou ought to be clear when, er, grants coming in for some or even minor building works, there ought to be a specification within, whether the building can cover it or whatever. Yeah, I know it puts more work back on the people asking for the money, but if, if that went ahead, and they it up, and the whole lot came down. [Graham:] Well, in the same way, you see, when we lent six thousand pounds, they paid up back over a ten year period. We're actually in the business of trying support, and I think failure is not to have tried. Now if they do try and it failed. You know, at least we're supporting the activity of the young people. Young people learn a lot from failing, don't they? [speaker002:] They, yes. Oh my God, Mr Chairman, I, I take your point, but I also support erm, Paul, actually, because if we do support things like this, and like you say, if it were, do collapse on these kids, erm, they could come back and say, well, you know, council give us the money towards it, you know, they should have, [Graham:] Oh, I don't think that's true. [speaker002:] But it could well do, you know. [Graham:] No, no [speaker002:] You get bad [Graham:] No, I mean, they constituted, they're insured... [speaker002:] I know that, I mean, er,we what Paul said, is basically that, we could have problems, if it, if it did go wrong. [Paul:] I mean, if you, if you into, if you were trying to look into building or commercial and you had to send them a planning application for it, you'd have to prove that building could support the weight. [Graham:] What I'm saying is this. If Tipton Scouts have written to us and said that under the grant that we're trying to give tonight, towards. If they said, would you please give five hundred pounds towards our running costs, there's a chance we would have looked at it We'd have looked at it. What they're doing is actually going a lot further, and supply us all the their ac accounts and details, and they've actually sort of called it a grant for partial costs of materials, right, so we're actually [speaker002:] Is it not incumbent though, on the councillor or ward councillor to make sure when the money has been granted, that how it's used and spent, so he's going to keep an eye on it, anyway? Because, that's part of the thing, that the, the ward councillor is meant to b keep an eye on... the actual project [Graham:] Well, I've just seen a new way forward why don't we get a report on this, I mean he's more operative, I mean, to consider, the building is worthy of what something or other [speaker002:] Well, there's no harm in you doing it, is there? [Graham:] your ward, your ward, you're experienced in this sort of thing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] I would like to think that we've pass for two hundred and fifty, subject to Trevor being satisfied. Wait a minute. [speaker002:] How did this hut started, was it, did it start as an agricultural building, or a house, or a just a plan hut? [Graham:] I think it started as an agricultural building, which they got for nothing. And transported there, and they've re-done it, and put it on site with a concrete floor. Quite impressive. [speaker002:] There's no reason why you should get somebody [Graham:] I don't call for it, but I think he's right in bringing it along. [speaker002:] ask you for it, is as it was reasonably sound, there is no reason why it should just sit and suddenly collapse. No. Then it's the first It's the basic principle. I mean, I'm not after money, but you, you've, you've got to make sure you're giving the money to, to a project like that, the thing is viable. That's right. We are the caretakers of this pub public community's money. Yeah. And it's only right that we should say how it's spent. But surely that isn't the case, I mean that, you know, we can't be responsible for the way in which all these groups actually behave and all the rest [Graham:] I, I, I agree with you [speaker002:] We have to draw the line at some point. [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean, it's like Rio, you know, somebody could crawl Yeah. underneath it, you know, under those trucks or something, but I mean we, we, we can't be responsible for that. [Graham:] What we're here to do is [speaker002:] gone and do [Graham:] showing more initiative. We're trying sports and [speaker002:] Is there anything in the constitution anywhere, cos I happily to go along with that if it's written in [Graham:] Whose constitution? [speaker002:] Or,wh what that, that we just give out grants, and we're not responsible how the money is spent. I think that's irresponsible. It's worth looking into, I think. It's just that, nowadays in life, you make a mistake and someone bangs you on the head for it. [Graham:] Oh, making it for quite a while [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] with as it turned out. [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] Erm, the money is here for us to allocate. [speaker002:] Yes, I know. [Graham:] The council passed it for allocation to youth activities. It remains with youth activities. Now we're not going to be able to go out and check where, which way that every pound is spent. [speaker002:] No, I, I appreciate that. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] You've got a squadron that need a training course. What about the lady first with the books, I mean,th th that could, someone could fall out, lose interest, you've given a grant [Graham:] Sure. Well, look at Tipton Play Area. [speaker002:] This is what's at the back of my mind [Graham:] The minute we stop doing this, we might as well stop the whole plans procedure. That's how I view it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] And we're here to try and, alright if, if seven out of the ten that we look up tonight come through, we've done well. No. At the end of the day, you can't be one hundred percent, but I'm, I, I think it's a good idea, that we actually pass something to the people, pending Trevor being happy. [speaker002:] I think that's a yeah. [Graham:] He'll look on that. So, do you agree two hundred and fifty pounds? [speaker002:] Yeah, I think I'll go along with that. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good investment. Sounds good, anyway. [Graham:] Right. Okay. A hundred and eighty five is erm, the Boxing Club. Er, I was hoping the president of the Boxing Club, Councillor would have been here tonight. Erm, they're applying for a grant of five hundred pounds for equipment, equipment being a Senior Stand Ball, cost two hundred and eighty, and a new canvas for the boxing ring, cost two hundred and twenty pound. Er, this is obviously in answer to the questionnaire, yes they have four hundred and fifty pound in the bank, and yes they do organize boxing tournaments for self-help. Must say, I know some of you don't like boxing, erm, I was at the last tournament in Honiton. It was very well organized, and I'm impressed with the way the kids behave at these dos, and I'd like to see you support it. [speaker002:] I see you've add three hundred pounds, is that right? [Graham:] Yeah. Th that this, erm, what you bear in mind, that this is out of our usual grants. [speaker002:] Did they have one this year? Yes. Yes. [Graham:] They had one thi but this is out of our grants. This is specifically for our youth grants. So, quite rightly, they've already had some support, and at that time, we didn't know how much money, you know, we were working on a different budget. [speaker004:] Can I just ask, is Ottery St Mary erm, Boxing Club and,Otter... [Graham:] Yes, [speaker004:] they're [Graham:] Yes, [speaker004:] one and the same? [Graham:] Yeah, [speaker002:] They thought it would draw people in from a wider [Graham:] They're trying to draw from a wider, yeah [speaker002:] area My question [Graham:] Comments. [speaker005:] Yes, I think we should er, give them something, but seeing as they've had three hundred pound, I think or less or perhaps... two hundred pound, they've got the five hundred, do they want erm, anything else. [Graham:] They've asked us for five. [speaker002:] They've asked for five. [Graham:] If you wanna give them half of that. Two fifty. [speaker005:] Well, you'll have to think how much [speaker004:] Mr, you know that's grant [Graham:] Yeah, I know [speaker004:] work out all the way down. [Graham:] I've added it all up. [LAUGHTER] Well I, well I, I mean I've had to do my homework, before I come on this meeting for you, and I, and if I can start at the back and [LAUGHTER] work forwards [] we have got enough money. [speaker004:] Right. [Graham:] Right. We have got enough money to give 'em five hundred, actually. [speaker002:] Right. [Graham:] If we gave them the five hundred, we won't, we are within, having said that, we're not going to give everybody everything, I don't think. So I mean, I think that would be quite fair if we erm, given 'em two hundred and fifty pounds, at this stage, or... [speaker002:] Further in the summer. Two hundred [Graham:] Two hundred and eighty. [speaker002:] Well, [Graham:] Well, why don't we do that then? Support one of the two items they've asked for. They've asked for a stand-ball. Cost two hundred and eighty. [Paul:] Yes. [Graham:] You happy to pay that on receipt of... invoices for that money? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Yes. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] two fifty No, hang on. [Graham:] No, you're... [speaker002:] Personally, I mean, I'm against er, encouraging Boxing but er, I don't... I, I obviously gone have a way of doing this, but erm, it's difficult, if you, if you're at the bottom of the... No. of the agenda, I mean It's gonna be alright dropping off the end. No. [Graham:] I promise you, I promise you that isn't [speaker002:] grant available. I don't think you Oh, yeah. Right, erm, [everyone talking] [Graham:] Communities Theatre, erm, of er... th they want a grant to support their current production. Now, I've put this in a as youth, because I do think there are quite a, a large number of young people in this, and erm, as, as broadly across the spectrum er, as, as we can, as we can give it, erm... they're expecting to pay three hundred and ninety five pound of hire charges for the institute and on top of this it's necessary to hire extra lighting, as the existing sy system is unsuitable for the theatrical use. And they have a bill, an bill of two hundred and fifty four pounds for the lighting, erm... they think it's an important [cough] community opportunity to have good entertainment on their doorstep, and they've only been able to balance their proposed production this year, by putting up the price by fifty pence. So they're actually charging people a little bit more to get in to the pantomime this year. I would have thought that if we were to put forward the two hundred and fifty pound to cover the, their extra lighting bill, that would have been money well spent. [speaker002:] How much are they asking for? [Graham:] They've actually said, that their cost of three hundred and ninety five pound, out of which two hundred and fifty is for lighting. [speaker002:] Personally, I'd love to see us support it to the hilt, because I believe that, you know, the community theatre, above all else in Ottery, really does give it a good name. Excellent productions. Very well, professionally, done. And, you know, for a small place like Ottery, you know, I mean, Honiton, as far as I know hasn't got anything like this. No, years ago. Brings in all sorts of... Sorry? companies of Ottery as a community place, about five or six years ago, weren't it? That's right, that's right. That's when it all started. I chaired the first meeting in the institute. You know, it's no amateur sort erm, well it is amateur, but I mean, it's very [speaker005:] As long as it's going to run, I mean, I don't know, I think, I think they up against [Graham:] Everybody says give a bit more than that. [speaker002:] I think, I think, I'd love to see us give this full amount. I mean, I know, for instance, the institute charges for them are crippling them, you know, and to put on a production is incredibly expensive. And to think, you know, I mean, one of the people came along tonight, actually very much involved in it. The people that do this, spend a hell of a lot of time and energy doing it. Repairing costumes... I could, I could go along with Phil on that. Erm, it is a real community pro I don't watch it, I'm not interested in it, but it is a real community project and obviously reaches right to the family. The family of this community. And I think it might be as well to support it. [Graham:] Right. Trevor. [Trevor:] I, I been thinking [Graham:] Right. [Trevor:] we take advantage of it, not just [Graham:] Well, in actual fact we've cut down on the boxing bit from what I thought, perhaps. We could give 'em a bit more, we could give, we could give 'em the four hundred pounds. [speaker005:] What, that there? [Graham:] Community, together, if you wanted to. [speaker002:] Well, I think we ought to [speaker005:] Depends on on the success of their audience they got for the pantomime, not... [speaker004:] It doesn't look like [speaker005:] They've got to do it, but I mean... [speaker002:] I think we should, you should support these, Phil. I, I would like to think they'd been supported the same as the boxing club, but after all the boxing club is for youths, and I think they've got to look after the youths erm, try and find something for them to do, as much as erm, community [Graham:] They work hard. I mean, to my, to my mind, [speaker002:] They don't want to know [Graham:] I mean, a lot of these grants go sporting wise, very few are arts type grants, and it's something that a lot of people participate, and a lot of people get pleasure out of. They put their, they put their tickets up by fifty pence, which is itself out. [speaker005:] You see, they do charge for people to go and see it. [Graham:] Yeah. They do. [speaker005:] They have to do [Graham:] I, I propose from the chair, we give 'em four hundred pound. [speaker005:] I declare my interest, Mr Chairman, I think I'm the Vice President, so [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They given the same grant [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Well, why don't you get that in writing, yeah. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I was going to. [Graham:] Right. All agree, all agree? [speaker002:] [everyone talking] [Graham:] I don't actually think that a Vice Presidency is somehow, should rule you out of organization Okay. Move on to number one eight seven. The Sports Centre. Now, I think this is a very interesting reply to our advert. They're, er,th they've got three suggestions been made, which to consider or discuss further. One is a lump sum to be given to the Sports Centre to be used to offset junior activities of their choice. The centre would then, were promoting this activity as they weren't supported by Ottery town council. This scheme would benefit anyone participating in the chosen activity not just Ottery youth. Two, a lump sum to be held by the town council, to be used as a form of grant, or financial support for low income families, students, unemployed, etcetera, on production of the relevant proof, erm, depending on the individual's needs, this could be either a full financial or part financial support for an activity of the person's choice, and this scheme could be used purely for Ottery based people. Three, a lump sum could be given to the centre for training employment of certain Ottery teenagers. We have, over the years, employed several students, but over the last few, have been unable to do so, for financial constraints. A youth training fund would enable us to continue this scheme, not only with a view to employment, but enabling us to provide training and development of personal skills, which would benefit them in future employment or future education. There. Three interesting concepts. Purely a matter of personal choice. I s I, I like the first one. A lump sum can be given, and then erm, they administer it. But I don't know that we can get in the day to day running of the Sports Centre. [speaker002:] How much have they asked for? [Graham:] Well, they haven't asked. But I, in my workings out, I'd thought five hundred pounds was the... you know... you can give 'em a lot less than that, and not, not gonna fund much of an activity, I don't think... the silence was deafening. [speaker002:] Well, I'm afraid I'm against the erm, Sports Centre to be honest. For the amount of money we pay, so much now, towards this... Yeah. and such like, I think we support it very well. But, then again, it does do a good thing, and I wouldn't be against giving them some support, Yeah. But I think we do as a council, support that Sports Centre very well at the moment, which we didn't expect to be doing. [Graham:] Well, all I, all I can say, and I take your point, is there is an awful large number of Ottery people using that place, and I think that that, I think East Devon do a very very good job with the Sports Centre, and we all know the giving a [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] four thousand pound a year grant. But this isn't one-off, is it? This is something different again Town Clerk. I think just to answer that the, the pitch, because obviously I looked into this, and tried to get a reduction, [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] the amount we have to pay for the pitch is no fault of the Centre, it's the fact that East Devon and Devon County permitted competitive pitches to be opened up quite close, [speaker002:] Quite close, yes. [Graham:] long after they said they wouldn't, because I understand there was a firm assurance, there wouldn't be other pitches around. And, all of a sudden, they opened them in competition. We lost the team, we lost all sorts of things. [speaker002:] Yes, but why they got the to offer it, because we were promised that this, [lorry noise] this event would be decreased. [Graham:] Would be decreased [speaker002:] That given time, they would be a self-supporting but those of us, there was Axminster, there was Exeter, there was Exmouth er, they've all got them [Graham:] Honiton, Exmouth,. But, if we hadn't of paid the four thousand, there wouldn't be a pitch there now. [speaker002:] Well, that, that's what they said. I mean, wouldn't know, I wouldn't know, I wasn't here at the time. [Graham:] Difference, you know, [speaker002:] Yes. [clears throat] [Graham:] is, is whether you support Richard 's initiative, in coming forward to ask us to try and support a different scheme. Perhaps a scheme, where they say, sponsored by Ottery Town Council. [speaker002:] I'd sooner see that kinda thing, than er, sponsoring a whole, sort of, like a hall, or something like that. [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yes, I agree with that. I, I think you have to be sure [Graham:] To offset junior activities of their choice, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] I, I, would it be, would it be erm, wrong of me to ask you say, grant up to five hundred pounds, and I go in and talk to him, so we come back with a council, with a scheme. We keep the money, rather than just say, there's five hundred pound. Let's find out what scheme first. [speaker002:] Mr Chairman, I like, I like the sound of that. [Graham:] Alright. [speaker002:] We've got to do that, really. Yeah. [Graham:] Yeah, we can't just throw five hundred pounds, [speaker002:] I'd like to explore these these additional schemes, and not er subsidize one [Graham:] Well. [speaker002:] Yeah. Well I, I look on this all with a I don't think, I don't think we regret East Devon a step with every everything you come to. I would have thought the community... [Graham:] I'm going down to the [speaker002:] Yeah. Well, I'm looking at this, we didn't promise not about this, any more than the community there once [Graham:] Well, by very few people. [speaker002:] More people, could get benefit out of the five hundred, then there what there is for four. [Graham:] I can assure you, the way it's going, at the end of the annual review [speaker002:] just going. [Graham:] at the end of, no we won't. At the end of the night, we're still gonna have some money, which we've gotta get spent, or w would hope to get spent by next March, so we're gonna have you to come in again. We're gonna have to look for more, you know, it's December now, [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] and you've got the money to use by March, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] and they're all pretty valid, and I can assure you that, if we allow up to a maximum of five hundred... and we check out what they're doing with it, and we put all the right s it's not going to be money wasted. [speaker002:] Well, let's put it the other way. Why, why should we give five hundred to the Sports Centre, and only four hundred to the community centre? [Graham:] Cos that's what they asked for [speaker002:] Or three hundred to the something else, three hundred to erm, [Graham:] Well, cos hopefully, hopefully, [speaker002:] Yeah [Graham:] we're tying all these grants [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] to what people have asked for, rather than just saying, I mean, it would be very easy, if you said, right, all the people who've applied, we'll give them five hundred pound each. But that's not really the way to do, is it? [speaker002:] why not give them what they asked for, since you... [Graham:] Because, hopefully, the product of this discussion is that we'll look at each grant, judge it on its merits, and then come up with what we think's the right figure. So I'll be proposing, we have five hundred pound based on satisfactory outcome of the discussions. All those in favour? [speaker002:] Yeah, I think rather a good idea. [Graham:] Right. Fine. Busy Otters Play Group. Erm, they're writing on behalf of the, to apply for a grant as detailed in the advert, erm, and basically, erm, it's, it, they're, they're, they're really asking for us for help to keep the thing running. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] They're not asking for anything in specific. They're actually saying, can you please, seeing as you've got this money for youth, help us keep the job going. [speaker002:] I think they're they doing a good job, actually. Yeah. [Graham:] And we've, you know I put down two hundred and fifty pounds. [speaker002:] I think that's er, that's a fair assessment for them. I think they will be well pleased with that, to be honest. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker007:] Sorry, er, sorry, Mr Chairman, I'm just thinking about it. I don't erm, I don't erm, [speaker002:] You hear what he said? [speaker007:] I don't see anything wrong with the proposal, I erm, I'm not against any of this. I mean I think we should er, [Graham:] They have, they have sent up very detail detailed accounts, [speaker007:] They are, they're master of speci specific amount. Or have they? [speaker002:] I second two hundred and fifty [Graham:] Right. All those in favour? [speaker002:] Yes. [Graham:] Thank you. Otter Vale Hockey Club. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Well, they've sent us in an application er, very detailed, very go good letter, actually. And what they're actually asking for is some help towards item of kit, erm, a goalkeeping helmet, sixty pounds. Pads, hundred and twenty. Chest pads, fifty two. [LAUGHTER] Tickers is that Tickers [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Tickers. [Graham:] Sixty five pounds, gloves, forty and a set of shirts, two hundred and fifty eight. They say a set of gear is costing them five hundred and ninety five pounds. They're running five teams, from five to nine year olds upwards. They charge... they charge twenty five pounds erm, subscription and two pounds for each game that people play. Erm, they're actually asking us to supply one set of gear. So they they're actually asking us for five hundred and ninety five pounds. [speaker002:] Sorry, Mr Chairman, I'm only thinking aloud. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] I put down five hundred on my lists for you to decide. [speaker002:] It is surprising how much this has widened out in the last twelve months, to be honest. Erm, the amount that young children and adults that are playing hockey now, surprised me. I, in actual fact, went there and erm, just thinking about it The amount of people that's involved with it now, is astronomical to be honest, I didn't realize the interest was in hockey as it is. No. Erm, I would say, say yes, we support 'em. To how much, Mr Chairman, I will leave that [Graham:] We, we, we can afford, within the scope of what we've got, we can afford to pay five hundred pounds. [speaker002:] You see, then, then my argument is the same, well, why give the Hockey Club five hundred pounds, and the Play Group only two fifty? You see, that... You can't The Play Group with er, people with small children, and erm Perhaps only thirty people in the hockey field. Right. Proposal. six hundred Yeah. I propose [Graham:] Anybody second that? All those in favour? [speaker002:] It must be, mustn't it? Aye. [Graham:] Five hundred, out of the five ninety. Again on receipt of the bills for that. We've got erm, the next application in from the station centre for a youth and community activities. Their problem is that they've lost five hundred pounds. Which was the anticipated work for the detached youth worker, erm, project. They er, are making the building available to, to Rio. They are supporting several other different users, but clearly if the five hundred pound, which they were anticipating, doesn't come to them they are in grave financial difficulties again. Whether you wish to support the, that, that building [speaker002:] Can I just make a point [Graham:] Yes. [speaker002:] for the future. Erm, I've been in discussion, because I've been trying to rescue their electricity bill situation, which is again, something which has blown up on them. Their lease runs out at the end of, I think it's April, and we are going to receive an approach from Devon County Council, that we become involved in any extension of that as a council, and that perhaps we offer them rather more in the way of guidance, which I think, is their main need. And rather than make it into a viable erm, organization. Erm, we're not ready with the proposal yet, because obviously we haven't had anything to come to us. But if this station youth centre is to continue, and I think personally that it is very important that it does, and that it develops. But it's controlled in a way rather differently to that which it's controlled now. Erm, obviously, as soon as we get something, it'll be put before the council, but this is just an interim thing, Yes, yes, yes. so that it stays afloat. I think part of the problem with the station youth centre, surely is that, we don't seem to know from one year to another, what the future's gonna be, other, you know, there doesn't seem to be any forward planning whatsoever. Yeah. And, personally, I mean, I know, having been there in the evening in that hall, it's, it's not very easy to hire it out, but it's freezing still. You know, I mean, there's draughts coming in, in here and there and everywhere. The whole place has got an air of being run down, and county council, I think to be honest, would quite like it to fall down, or just to be able to develop the whole site. [Graham:] Well. [speaker002:] We've got planning applications, haven't we? [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So I think th th that the one thing which is good I think, is a possibility of re-opening it up, and possibly using it to a fuller extent, which might actually give it er, er, new lease of life. Well, also erm, the Education Authority, if it were used properly, would be prepared to make more money available to it. Erm, at the moment, they're looking to give, possibly a prefer a preferential grant to the one that's there now for any cost of a hiring from Devon County Council. They said what they mean by using it properly, I mean... Well, this has got to come in a letter, I mean, this is what we want. Erm, they haven't said, because at the moment, it's, it's at the end of one lease, or nearly the end of one lease, with some small horror stories in there of sorts, and I think it's got to come on to [Graham:] We did, er, we re we were hopeful, that in the next few months, there would be a full scale debate on the future on this building, and that we as the council, will take some initiative in, in actually the, the renewal of the lease. If we don't grant a, what's going there now, it could well be that by default, the building will revert to the county council, and it would be lost to the people of Ottery. Clearly, I don't want to see us having just an open ended thing, that every time they get into trouble, we bail them out, but I do think that we need to give breathing space now, until we can come with a, a, a decent set of proposals for the future of the building. Remembering of course, that they have painted the outside, the county council, but clearly, erm, there is need for a fair refurbishment package inside. In my discussions with the police, it was one of the buildings we offered them, and I went with erm, the new inspector to look at that, and I still said they were somewhat put off by the cold austere sort of feeling of the place. But there are possible, [speaker002:] Potential's there. [Graham:] I know that, I know that erm, the existing committee are drawing up proposals for their refurbishment of the place, erm, obviously to look for, for help towards it. I think we as a town, don't want to lose, we got precious few buildings, for community use, and I think we need to look at this to the different light now. I think we need to say, okay, in the future, what are we, the town, gonna do, to make this building right for what we want for the town. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] Rather than think, oh well, there's a couple of people, group running it, that's near enough and it's good enough. And I think we've reached the stage, where the county council said, you come to us with a new initiative, and we're far more likely to be, bend over to help you, than, than under the present. So on, on that basis, I would hope you feel that we could support 'em, to make up the shortfall in rent, which will in actual fact be paid on by them in rent, to keep the place occupiable. [speaker002:] Who, who runs the new centre now? [Graham:] It's, it's the same committee run by er, well it's the station and, and station centre for community and [speaker002:] It's used only [Graham:] Oh, yes indeed, there's, there's quite a few users. St John's Ambulance are based there, erm, they're all sorts of different clu are you still involved in it? [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] No, use the theatre. [Graham:] Yeah. It's, it's got quite a lot erm, users who would be without a home, albeit boxing club. [speaker002:] I think we'll have to support that. Yes, yes, yes. As long as it's being used, then I think we've gotta keep it. [Graham:] Right. You're happy with the five hundred? [speaker002:] Yeah. I see wi with the additional five hundred last year, I should think you couldn't do less than that, could you? [Graham:] Right. Fine. Now then, that's one, one is the squad room, Air Training Corps. Now the reason we've got this, is there are quite a few erm, Ottery boys who are members of this corps, and get taken down there by bus every Friday evening, and the Town Clerk erm, went to speak to them. Yeah, I attended, I used to run an A T C squad, well I used to run the two different ones in London, and A T C squadrons, and I must say I've been invited to the last two open nights. There was one about a fortnight ago, and would have given my ears for the sort of civilian committee, and the methods that they're using here, compared with the ones I saw in London. It's well run, there's a good attendance, they've got some very very good results on examinations this year, and of course this is all extra to their school work. They're smart, the place is well maintained, and I think anything we can do to support the general thing there, and certainly the Ottery youth there is, is, is money well spent. Out of their membership of twenty four, do you know how many are Ottery? [speaker002:] I think it's about six. [Graham:] Six. They've got two thousand seven hundred pounds in the deposit account, erm, they'll be applying to Sidmouth town council for a grant, er the reason for the grant, they've asked for two hundred and fifty, is to sponsor as many cadets as possible to take part in activities at Haven Banks. Which I guess is a... [speaker002:] It's er educa er training centre. [Graham:] Er, Trevor. [speaker002:] Mr Chairman, this, in actual fact, I can put a little bit of light on to this, I mean, having had two of my children, erm, attended this, Air Training Corps. Basically th there are two members that come over to Ottery, and pick the kids up in their own transport, when the A T C transport is unavailable, which they. They take them there, they train them and they bring them back again in the evenings as well. I might, my children in actual fact have been flown around Scotland in the Nimrods and such like. They do do a lot, they travel all over the country, er, and I think it's a worthwhile thing, I mean, you see the kids dressed up smart. I, I in actual fact went to the er, Remembrance Day Parade and to see those kids do a silent drill, it's unbelievable. In fact, it's very tearful. I, I [Graham:] Right could we [speaker002:] myself and I think it's a very good er [Graham:] They asked for two hundred and fifty pounds. [speaker002:] Yes, yes. the thing I'm thinking about, I mean terribly keen on, you know, training wh whatever the basis for it is, I mean, we don't want to start a discussion on that. But must but I don't know how much further I want to go along that sort of line. Erm, but I think, I mean, don't we have to be a bit careful about supporting other organizations in other towns? We have given them a grant, er a couple of years ago. I'm just thinking in terms of if... if I can just finish. [Graham:] Well, we do, we do support sorry. [speaker002:] If those six children, you know, turn out to be, you know, this would be, this year or next year or whatever, erm, what's going to happen next year? You know, are we going to get requests again when they aren't Ottery children? [Graham:] I think we would have verify that there are Ottery kids taking part in that particular year. [speaker002:] That is, that is the least I've known it [Graham:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] six. I mean there's usually two car loads used to go across when my kids were there. [Graham:] Yeah. I mean we do support, don't we, things like the talking newspaper across the area, because there's, and we do support like erm, Mrs 's holiday for youngsters, although they are not all Ottery kids, but I mean the fact of the matter is, I think we would need each time we look at any of this, that there are Ottery youngsters involved. [speaker002:] Well, equally you couldn't have an A T C Squadron in every small town or village in the country, and therefore they've got to be, I mean, just as much as Otter Valley Boxing Club has extended its range to get more people, so the A T C have to be in some particular place. Mm. Because there's quite a lot of equipment supplied from M O D to, to support them. [Graham:] Right. Erm. They've asked us for two hundred and fifty pounds proposal. [speaker002:] Right, right, I'll Mr Chairman, I think that's alright. [Graham:] Seconded. Right, all in favour? Any Right, two hundred and fifty pound it is. One nine two, the Ottery St Mary Football Club's youth section. Erm, I've got a three four... four page letter from the Ottery youth section, erm, and their... we run at the moment three teams of boys between the age of ten and sixteen. Er, we have approximately sixty boys signed on for the three teams, all of whom come from the Ottery area. We have considerable success with all the teams in the past few years, and even when not winning, the boys enjoy their football. Our expenses in running these teams include league and club entry fees, referees fees, refreshments, nets for goals, footballs and three sets of kit and changes of kit, in case of a colour clash. We pay for each boy to have a trophy at the end of the season to recognize that he had represented Ottery throughout the season. Erm, the kit that these boys are wearing is a number of years old, and therefore we are going to need think about replacing it at the end of this season. We would like to be able standardize the kit so all three teams wear the same colours. To replace this kid would cost a thousand pounds. The fund raising we did covers our cost and we rely heavily on the goodwill of parents and friends to provide transport every Sunday. Erm, we are, we are at present at the moment spending money upgrading facilities for the youths. We've already used, improved the supporters' hut to provide shelter for the many people who watch the matches, from which to serve teas. There's still a great deal to do to upgrade the changing facilities for the boys, all the work is carried out by parents and friends, but the materials cost money. We're a forward as many ideas for improving new football. At present, we have also got twenty five boys aged between eight and eleven who attend training for the under twelve team. Only thirteen players can pick to play each week, with a four in un un under eleven team. And so it goes on. [sorting papers] And finishes off by saying, erm, our Youth Committee Chairman, Roland have a forward looking attitude to developing and improving youth for many years to come, for as many boys as possible, and we would like to apply for a grant for a thousand pound to cover the cost of providing these new kits for three teams. I hope you will look favourably on this request Comments. [speaker002:] Are they asking for a thousand, are they? [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean, seeing the amount of kids that do go out there, and the state of the changing rooms that they are using at the moment, I, I think it's really degrading.... [tape change] three one hundred and thirty [Graham:] Yeah. Three one three O. [speaker002:] I don't know what you think, Mr Chairman, but I just still five hundred the same as the Youth Centre, the erm [Graham:] Right, proposal, [speaker002:] Yeah, I second that. I propose. [speaker007:] I propose. [Graham:] Right, all in favour of five hundred? [speaker007:] Hockey Club [Graham:] Right. I think that's, thank you Councillor, that's excellent. [speaker002:] Three six, three O, now. [Graham:] Three six, three O. [speaker002:] We'll have the running total in a minute. [Graham:] Right. [LAUGHTER] Er, Ottery St Mary Scout roof repairs, amount request a thousand pounds. Membership of the organization, one hundred and four boys. Membership fifteen pounds per annum. Balance sheet, quote for three thousand pounds to strip the existing roof covering, and basically well, they're putting on a new roof. [speaker002:] Is, is this building here not so long ago? [speaker007:] Yes, that's the ones where you put a little under six thousand. [Graham:] Isn't that, meant we, we say that I know time goes on but in years they took to pay the loan. So it's a ten year old building and they're [speaker002:] Is it? [Graham:] looking to re-felt the roof. [speaker002:] And was it a flat, flat roof? [Graham:] Er... [speaker002:] No. [Graham:] no, it, er... I can't remember what it was. No. [speaker002:] Is it a gabled roof, is it? [speaker007:] I forget what when they ordered, but I cannot remember now. [Graham:] Probably flat, one of them. Hot, hot, hot bonding and [speaker002:] Oh, it's gotta be a flat roof then. [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] In fact, I mean, yeah, ten year, Yeah. that's all you'll get out of 'em. [Graham:] They gotta soak [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] soak the roofing. Yeah ten years, about right. What they're applying for. The bill,th the, it's three thousand pound, and they're asking us for a thousand. Looks a bona fide, I mean, obviously, we want to make sure the work's done. What do you think? [speaker002:] I can't think what building it is then, if it's got a flat roof. [Graham:] Yeah, they're all, there's another one along the end. [speaker007:] I have for a number of years [speaker002:] Tipton Scouts, Tipton Scouts two fifty. [Graham:] Yeah, but Tipton Scouts, you've already had one this year. [speaker007:] Yeah, that's right [Graham:] And this is, I mean, what they're asking, actually to be fair to them they've put in for a thousand pound against three. [speaker002:] They've asked for a third. They've asked for a third of what [Graham:] Erm, [speaker007:] I, I, I go along as same as the other, five hundred that's my way of thinking, but I don't know what everybody else thinks. [Graham:] I, I think we should [speaker002:] We didn't, we didn't on the first request. Instead of giving it a grant, they paid back their money. [Graham:] Yeah, they done very well, really. Would you, would you agree to seven fifty, Councillor would you? [speaker007:] I have nothing against the Scouts, I'm all in favour of them actually. I just sort of [Graham:] Mm. We can afford the thousand pound, if you think it's right. They've got a hundred and four boys, Cubs and Scouts. [speaker002:] Well they, seeing the Ottery, whatever you call it, they did put in a lot of work down there, there seem to be a lot of Scouts about. I, I like to hear what the rest of erm, the Committee got to say on it, actually. I mean, it's, I seem to be talking quite a bit here tonight. [Graham:] I'm glad you came. [speaker002:] this year is it being [LAUGHTER] these people must be given to understand, [Graham:] Oh yes, yes, it's up to us it's up to us, we either the club out or we don't. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] If we've got enough money, I mean [Graham:] Thank you. But let's remember this. What we were criticized and several senior councillors quite rightly said, the five thousand pound we were spending was only going to a very few. [speaker002:] But now it's [Graham:] What we've done tonight, is spread that amount of money over a tremendous number of people tonight [speaker002:] Yes, yes, yes, yes. [Graham:] and you would have to say, that the benefit's gonna be far more, far reaching than it was before. [speaker002:] I think yes [Graham:] So what we're talking about is [speaker007:] Scouts or Guides all use it or [Graham:] I think they do, don't they? [speaker002:] I think they did. [Graham:] Yeah, I think they do. [speaker002:] Yeah. She, she did mention the Guides when she came into the talk with me. [Graham:] I mean, I think, I think that considering the work they, we ought to be looking at giving them the grant. Right, a proposal from the chair. A thousand pounds. All in favour? Any against? Fine, and the running total there [speaker002:] How many hands have you had in favour? How many hands in favour? [Graham:] Er, all of 'em. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I make it fifteen left. [speaker004:] running out [speaker002:] Four six, four six three O. I make it fifteen minutes to go. I haven't done anything wrong. [speaker004:] It's just that it's running out rather quickly, [Graham:] got there now. [speaker004:] We have, have we? [Graham:] This is, that's that one, [speaker004:] That's, that's [Graham:] now we move on that's the youth one, now we move on... so we now, we've got one thousand... [speaker002:] I make it,on fifteen oh two left. Balance. [Graham:] One thousand, five hundred and two pound left to spend. So that, what did you make the running total? [speaker002:] Four six three O. [Graham:] That's it, So, four six three O. And I added it all up to four six five O. So somebody had gone [speaker002:] Oh, I may be wrong [Graham:] No, no, I meant, that's what I did before. Well, no, don't pack your papers away [speaker002:] I, I did promise that I'd be away at eight o'clock. [Graham:] Right. Thank you Councillor [speaker002:] You're late. Nice to see you Happy Christmas to you [speaker007:] Thank you very much, and the same to all of you, and I hope you chaps will carry on and use it up properly. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] What? we were worried about that, weren't you? [speaker002:] Oh that's alright [Graham:] Right, move on to part two. Move on to part two, one nine four, war memorial. [speaker002:] Can I suggest then, can, can we have er, preview of what each of these groups actually want, so we can see [Graham:] Right. Fine. [speaker002:] I mean, what's the likelihood of I agree with that. [Graham:] Okay. Yeah, good idea. What we've got left in the kitty is one thousand, no [speaker002:] No. Two one O one. [Graham:] Two, one. [speaker002:] It's this, it's this figure on here, of, this is what you've given out as the total of five thousand. This now goes back to the ordinary grants money. [Graham:] Right, let's, let's, I'll run through this quickly, what I put down. The first one, I mean, er, this is not casting the stone, but this is the way I see 'em all. The first one, I think shouldn't come [speaker004:] Not really. [Graham:] the first one I don't think should come under this grant, I think it should go to enhancement. Because it's all about enhancing the area of the war memorial, and I think that should go for next year's enhancement. The second one,wo if we look to support the carnival and their extortionate high insurance costs. I've put down the target figure of two hundred and fifty. The Sid Valley Talking Newspaper, we gave a hundred and fifty pound before and we have done each year. Right. The Ottery Primary School is about vandalizing er, vandalized seat, and I've put a hundred and fifty for that. And R Rio is to supply one container plus costs of getting it there, seven hundred pound. In total that comes to twelve hundred and fifty, out of a balance of... [speaker002:] Two thousand one hundred and one. [Graham:] So there's the b so there's the basis of the discussion. [speaker002:] Right. [Graham:] Alright? [speaker002:] Thank you. Yeah. [Graham:] Okay. Now the first one, as I say, it's from a Mr it's from a Mr councillor of Porthneal it's erm, I understand Ottery Council has some money available an immediately fund that can be used to enhance the environment. Could we suggest paving the area around West Hall War Memorial. I think that falls directly into town enhancement for next year. [speaker002:] Town enhancement Yeah. [Graham:] All agree? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] use all of it too. [Graham:] Fine. Erm, the next one is purely from the Carnival er, towards their erm, er, expenses and they say that insurance has risen from three hundred to twelve hundred pounds. Basically, it's another one, isn't it, where whatever money we put towards it, and the end of the day what they get left with comes back into the community. You know, they pay, they pay [speaker002:] Oh, yeah. [Graham:] various charities. [speaker002:] The insurance, for what, er, public liability Yeah. Yeah. Ridiculous, int, and they're having problems of getting That's the only thing that's gonna stop the carnival. Yeah. You only gonna have one upset, and that's to be the end of it. But why have they actually said, to ask specifically, I mean, you can understand it in terms of the cars, or something, cos a lot of people are claiming for everything right left and centre. But I mean, there is not a lot of tar barrel rolling around the country. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Well, what it's all about is that er, the insurers have seen things on the telly etcetera and horrified with the result, [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [Graham:] and basically they're running out of companies who are prepared to insure. [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [Graham:] Even though they haven't made claims. Trevor. [Trevor:] Mr Chairman erm, I believe we have had a breakdown there, haven't we. Any [Graham:] A break [speaker002:] Any way of giving a breakdown, of what money they give out, do they? [Graham:] Donations wise, yeah, yeah. Erm. [speaker002:] Would you, could you read some of those? [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Donations. [Graham:] Well, in nineteen eighty four, they gave out four seven five in prize money, and three hundred pound in donations. By nineteen eighty eight, it was up to five hundred and five in prize money and eleven forty seven in donations. And in nineteen ninety three they gave a thousand and forty prize money and paid out two thousand one hundred and sixty pound on donations. [speaker002:] They haven't give you the breakdown of donations and who they give it to? [Graham:] They have. [speaker002:] Could you give us that? [Graham:] Last year's. Right in nineteen ninety three, twenty five pound to the Police Widows and Orphans, hundred and fifty to the Girl Guides, two hundred and fifty Busy Otters, two hundred pound to Ottery Football, a thousand pound to Ottery Dyslexia Association, two hundred pounds to the W R V S for Talking Books for the Partially Sighted, fifty pounds for the Primary School, and fifty pounds for the St John's Ambulance. [speaker002:] They also supply computers as I understood? No. [Graham:] No. But there you are. All things within the town. [speaker002:] And they're giving quite a lot back, and I, I know you only give it as a, as a guide, Mr Chairman, but two hundred and fifty pound, I would think that would have to be doubled. The amount of money that they give back to this community, I would like to see it supported [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Right. That's what? [speaker002:] used to be a cripple on Hollywood. [LAUGHTER] Oh dear. [Graham:] I thought they used to run a carol service. [speaker002:] Yeah, it's gone. Car Carol weren't there. [LAUGHTER] Oh, sorry it's seven o'clock. [Graham:] Okay. Let somebody on the [speaker004:] I'll second, I'll second that. [Graham:] well, that somebody on the committee propose that. [speaker004:] I'll propose it. [speaker002:] it seems a bit strange though, cos I mean, indirectly we seem to be giving back to the community. [speaker004:] The community [Graham:] I think what they're saying is, that unless the money to start with, there's no defin definition that they can carry on. When they've raised the money at the carnival. So they, they need the money as capital up front. [speaker002:] Up front. [Graham:] I do think it's probably A good idea that the council back the carnival. [speaker004:] Supports it, yes, supports it. [speaker002:] Oh, yeah, I mean, I've, I've nothing whatsoever against it. [Graham:] Sure. [speaker002:] I think it's brilliant. [Graham:] Yeah. So we'll do that. I'm a seconder for that? [speaker002:] What was the proposal? [Graham:] Janice proposed five hundred pounds. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Right. All in favour? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Graham:] Okay, erm, the Sidvale Talking Newspaper, we've supported this before. Erm, [speaker002:] It's them again. [Graham:] Yeah,we with this been ongoing, we've given a hundred and fifty pounds to it, erm, well I say I don't see it on the top one. [speaker002:] I think it's pretty well supported. bottom one Pretty well supported. [Graham:] top one on the bottom one. There you are. All in favour? two hundred and fifty. Right. Th right the next one's a sad little one. It's about vandalism of a school, of a seat outside the primary school. Erm, you may have heard that vandals destroyed our community seat on the Long Dobbs Lane last week. The seat was given to the school for a Mr headmaster and as a gesture of goodwill to all who pass the school. You'll be all to aware of the school's financial circumstances and understand we are unable to afford replacement or repair. My staff and governors wonder if the town council would be willing to help and restore in the much loved seat. Hundred and fifty pounds. [speaker002:] Fair enough. [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] Will that cover the cost of the seat? No. [Graham:] Does, don't it? [speaker002:] Not quite. Though about, the one that's going in the cemetery, they're just on two hundred. they're very good seats. [Graham:] Oh, well, if you wanna make it two. [speaker002:] I'm taking your word for it. [Graham:] I thought hundred and fifty covered it. [speaker002:] The time they set fire to the [Graham:] Right. Well, [speaker002:] I would like to see us cover the cost of the seat. Proposal. Yeah, that's the least we can do. [Graham:] Two hundred pound. Right. [speaker002:] You'll given them a new target to go for a? [Graham:] Right. [speaker002:] Give them a new target. [Graham:] Well. Mustn't give in to vandals, must we? [speaker002:] Well, there comes a time, [Graham:] right. One nine eight. It's, you've heard the er presentation by Carol for Rio. They've asked us to provide them with the finance one container, that's five hundred pound, plus two hundred pound transport, which will be matched by the community council if we do it. So in actual fact, we're, we're grant aiding them to get two of their four. [speaker002:] I think this is a very actually, Mr Chairman. I think. The only thing, the only thing that worries me is that the thing gets priority. Well, yes, I got the advert. The they put the advert in and she underlined them. I've got those sort of prices some time ago when we were [Graham:] Well. [speaker002:] looking for one for the... [Graham:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the bowling club. We are, we are paying nine hundred pound at the moment. [Graham:] She's, she's got, she's got well, they've asked us for seven. If that does the job and on receipt of the bills, I think we should support it. [speaker002:] Yes [Graham:] I think they've got off the ground and they've shown a lot of initiative. [speaker002:] I think she, yes, she presented it well. [Graham:] Okay. All agree? I think that means we've spent a bit more than we planned. That I've put down, erm, anybody added it up as we've gone along? [speaker002:] Yes, fifteen fifty. [Graham:] Fifteen fifty. Fifteen fifty, which leave us a balance of... six hundred pounds, does it? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [Graham:] Okay. I think that's a good position to be in now, er, one more grants meeting before the end of the financial year. Well I think we're on the right, on the right side of it. Move on the buildings. The schedule action to be taken relative to necessary works. Now, you've all been down and looked at the state of the playground below. I think we put the erm, report and the guarantee which we've had from Rentakil in solicitor's hands, and he is in the process of contacting Rentakil. [speaker002:] Yep. [Graham:] Rentakil have said that they don't consider that the guarantee covers us. But I would suggest to you that we need to press Rentakil and say, you know you the conditions of the guarantee we feel we'd comply with, and wait until we get anything back from the solicitors, before we do anything else. I'm pleased you've all seen the state of it. But I don't think there's any action. I think it may mean that we'll have to call a meeting quite quickly after this one, to discuss, but I really don't think we've got the basis of anything till that comes back. I don't know what the rest of you feel. [speaker002:] Can I just make the point that we are due to pay the next erm, annual subscription for this guarantee. Erm, it was due to today, actually. On the solicitor's advice we held it. Erm, in the letter that you s sending by fax tomorrow, you tend to indicate that it is held while the matter's sorted. If they say we've got to pay it, well then I'll have to come back at the council meeting. If not, well it will held pending what they do next, because there's no point, I mean, Trevor's, I think frankly, rightly said, that the guarantee is not a very solid document. If this is the case, then I co wouldn't be able to propose to the council that we continue to give Rentakil two hundred and seventy quid a year... For nothing. for nothing. So therefore [Graham:] if you refuse to pay it, they not worth paying. [speaker002:] No. [cough] [Graham:] You've got to be very careful on that. [speaker002:] No. The solicitor is wording it that we're not refusing to pay it, but we're just holding it abeyance. Holding it in abeyance. As long as it doesn't invalidate the guarantee. Well, that's what you've got to be careful of. [Graham:] Gentlemen, I, I, I do believe, fellow councillors, what we've done now is asked the solicitor to, to take the matter in hand, and so I do think until we've got advice from him, it would be for us to actually recommend any other... So I think we may have to take this as part of the council meeting when we get a report back, cos obviously, there's a degree of urgency in whatever we do about this, but I can suggest that we can do no more than report back to the next council meeting that we've discussed this, and that it is in solicitor's hands. [speaker002:] Can I ask, Mr Chairman, in your opinion, had we carry out the erm, works or anything to do suppose to do. I mean [Graham:] My only candid opinion is that the thing is so loosely couched and phrased that we could claim we have and they could we haven't. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] I'm not clear, on reading the fu I haven't read the full report. I will say that Roy dealt with it, when it happened and I know at the time he, he was very very thorough over it. [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] I mean, I know we spent a lot of time with the former clerk, [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] And with Rentakil, and if you remember at that time, as he rightly said last night... the idea of going with Rentakil, was that we thought they were a reputable firm, [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] And thought we were doing the best possible thing we could do. [speaker002:] Dennis was also an adviser on it. [Graham:] Yeah, well there you are. I think it [speaker002:] I think you can stand to correct me, but the problem being with these things, that they're so It's the typical get-out clause, this, isn't it? How it looks to me, is that most of it was angled towards the bit that they were involved in last time, which was much more to do, I think, with the police officer, I wasn't here, but you know, surround it yeah, yeah. and it all sort of refers to that part. Mm. Did, did they do structural work last Sunday? Or was it, was it all dry-rot treatment? [Graham:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Typically. [Graham:] yeah. Well, I think what we gotta do. I must s what's happened it this. What's happened is this. At the moment the solicitor has the report, which it took Derek quite a while to find, cos it wasn't filed where it should have been. [LAUGHTER] But we've now found that and it's gone to the solicitor's. In the me we hadn't actually had a chance go through it properly ourselves. And that's something we must do before the next meeting so that I can answer the questions, cos we don't really know at this moment. One, which was actually carried out. We just put it all in Rentakil's hands really, [speaker002:] Mm. [Graham:] Thought we were doing right. Now we've got to go into the fine print. [speaker002:] Mr Chairman, may I ask What what happened, what happened to the property next door, they were going to put the claim against the council [Graham:] Yeah, well th that all petered out in the end, didn't it? [speaker002:] Well, I don't know. We have, we have a problem, of course, erm, in finding the exact root of the problem, we could possibly you see, so So, there's nobody can really No, no define it [Graham:] Well that, that, that did reach a conclusion with the solicitors, didn't it? [speaker002:] If it's any comfort, it's just been sold next door. So whoever's bought it bought all the problems, yeah. Well, apparently what's happened there, I do know, because erm, one or two of the people who looked at it got involved, and whereas the property started out at some figure in the high hun hundred and fifty, hundred and eighty thousand, something like that. It was actually sold for something in the region of fif fifty thousand. Because some people came in and had offered sixty, that's what I was told, the last lot that came in had offered sixty. Fifty, and then withdrew, but it's around that fifty, sixty mark. Oh. Can I ask, Mr Chairman, if it's possible for us to have a copy of the reports? Is it, is it possible? [Graham:] You can borrow the copy, can't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. I'll give it back to you [Graham:] Would you, would you look at that, and perhaps you [speaker002:] I will look at that, yeah. [Graham:] perhaps, you'd speak to us at the next council meeting, then. [speaker002:] If I get a chance to look at it. [Graham:] Yeah. Fine. Okay. [speaker002:] Christmas reading, then. [Graham:] Okay. [speaker002:] That's what I want, yes. [Graham:] Erm, there be no other business. I like to close the meeting. Thank you for attendance. And this is the final council meeting before Christmas. Wish you a happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year. And just mention, [shouting] just mention [] that there are, there is carol singing around the tree at the bottom, Thursday, seven thirty. [speaker002:] Has anybody any idea why it's so late? Because we can't actually make it, because we're going out somewhere else, but we would have done it, if it has been earlier. It seems funny, cos you know, small kids go there [Graham:] Well, that time of the evening, you mean? [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would have gone [Graham:] I don't know why. I mean basically we have had organize it this year. As he has other years. [speaker002:] Is it any later than normal or... [Graham:] I said [speaker002:] No, it's always about seven thirty. [Graham:] Is it? Yeah. [speaker002:] I think one of the things, to be honest is to avoid the traffic. Because that's quite a lot of traffic going through there. [Graham:] Nice evening. I love it. [speaker002:] I happen to tell you, that it's, we hope that the tree will be lit. It's lit again at the moment, but so far we've had something like fifteen bulbs stolen, and when that heavy rain comes, it fills the little cups and goes bang and the gentleman today, was busy drilling things out of the fuse box, where I think it had gone again. So. It's we lit tonight.

[speaker001:] Evening ladies and gentlemen. Good evening In case you're wondering why the conversation's being recorded this evening. Perhaps you'd care to explain, Mr Chairman, to those who don't know. [Graham:] Certainly I would, thank you, Vice Chairman. Er, yes, this is a follow up erm, if you remember at the last full council meeting, we recorded er proceedings for the er British Corpus, is it, Town Clerk?... Yes, yes. And er, they were so pleased with your efforts, that they've sent the Town Clerk some more tapes, and they'd like a few more. I'm not quite sure that we will appear Darling Buds of May, but it's something similar, mhm. There... right. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Thank you, Graham. Right, Item one, have we any apologies? [Graham:] Councillors,,, and. Sorry... [paper rustling] [speaker001:] Anyone else? [Graham:] Yes, [LAUGHTER] but has been wet all day. [speaker001:] Right, item two, reports and correspondence, Town Clerk. [Graham:] I've got a couple of pieces of correspondence about things you've already looked at, erm, just minor alterations... [speaker001:] The first was alterations and link annex to West Harroll and Durrock Road. [whispering] The minor amendments [] altering the roof design of a garage annex from head to gable on the west elevation and all other specs of the development rema remains unchanged, well, Erm, the second item is, er, a conversion of a bungalow to house West Hill. And the amendment is, oh, the omission of a second... omission of the second floor. All other respects of the development remains unchanged, so not converting to a house, then. Doesn't look like it. [Graham:] So they're doing nothing then, are they? Is that what they're saying? If it's already a bungalow. [speaker001:] I just read these things... Sorry. I would imagine what they're doing is raising the roof and not putting in the second storey. Yes, it says... it's a reconversion of bungalow to house, West Hill. I would like to notify you of the following amendments to the planning permission for the above development. To remind people of the of the omission of the second floor. In all other respects the development remains unchanged. This matter was approved and myself, Deputy Chairman, rural area area planning They've done nothing. I think they just had to admit that it's not, they can't, they can't do any s s sin, because it'd say so, right. It's admitting [church bells] Well, I don't understand that. No, I didn't either I'm sorry, this confusion that er, that the upstairs, is in fact, the first floor. And the two... yes and, and the second floor which in fact is a third storey. Indeed, could well be, couldn't it? Could be like... Mr Chairman, would I, er, can I ask that we ask for er more explanation on what they're doing there? [Graham:] Yes. I, I don't like the way that's done. [speaker001:] It's been approved, but I mean as interest exactly what what's been approved. [Graham:] I think they're let us know what they've done. [speaker001:] Yes, er, I thought the council afraid doesn't understand [LAUGHTER] I must object. I can al always recall what permission we got [Graham:] The problem is, when you get these letters out, unless you've got a plan in front of you, it's impossible to know. [speaker001:] Mm. See we don't keep a plan, that's the problem. All we got is a piece of paper, which probably on that one tells the council they recommend approval of this. they don't get no comeback, do you? No. Perhaps Mr Chairman, we should erm, take copies of the plans. your figure. You're not late, are you? No. I think we'll end up with a massive filing problem, if we er, Yeah. try to do that. We've got time. This is it. Any offers, but I don't... Realize, you realize that these may want a new machine for correcting plans which is not er, sort of I always wanted an A one photocopier. Right photocopier [Graham:] Erm, that concludes of course, the correspondence. [speaker001:] No [Graham:] No. Oh, sorry that was... [speaker001:] circulated here.... [paper rustling] Yes, Graham, have you got [Graham:] Erm, very briefly, erm, Councillor passed over to me, erm, a report from the planning committee about planning policy guidelines, the countryside and the rural economy, and I thought it was quite a good paper, so we've copied it and sent it round to you. I don't propose that we make a any more discussion than that on it, but it is obviously erm, changing to the way in which they will be looking at certain items in the countryside. Okay. Fine. Tha that seems a fair comment, yes. Indeed... thought you all had copies of that I know, cos I have a copy here, and I'll leave you to digest at your own leisure. Okay. I think it's a useful document, er, Mr Chairman, Er, yes. and I think it gives a balanced view, on something you know may be, you may be interested in the future. But I don't think we should make too much of it at this stage. [speaker001:] No. I would agree with that. Right, anything else? Yes, we do by the looks of it. No, thought you were going through the erm, plans, this is all the background history to the er, house. [Graham:] Right, well then, that concludes, of course, the correspondence. If we move on to item three, we see [paper rustling] [speaker001:] [everyone talking] We have erm... They're only three in the last... No, no, no, that's when they finally agreed I said perhaps some time afterwards. Right, okay. Right, moving on to item four... which agreed to consider a term following plan applications. Application one is outline, for for an agricultural growing farm,. Do we need background to this one? Not really, no, er, we've had several people in to examine it, who thought it was erm, you know, okay where it was, and as it stands. Somebody who lives nearby, came in and examined it the other day, and that's all I know. Well, I think this is erm, replacing the house that's been sold off, really, isn't it, I don't think it was a good idea, really. Which house... The original farmhouse at. Park, they called it, didn't they? sold off the farmhouse, they're living in another one really Yes, Erm, Mr Chairman, it's been brought to my attention, in actual fact, the drawings aren't correct. Er, as on the drawing service, it does show there are already two buildings there. I don't believe there are. There's only one, and it says that it was built in ninety one, and it wasn't, it was built in ninety three. So I think there is a little bit of controversy over it. Yeah,on one is in fact proposed, and one is an existing farm building. [Graham:] Yeah. There's only one shop that's existing. [speaker001:] Oh, I see. [Graham:] And one shop is proposed. [speaker001:] It's,it it's a grain storage isn't it? Storage of livestock you see. I don't know. [Graham:] Well, I be I believe we should pass it. I don't believe th that there's any relevance at all in the fact that there's something been sold off. I think what you gotta look out for, is a block of grain here which supports a dwelling. I can't see anything wrong in planning terms, whatsoever. [cough] [speaker001:] Yeah. I would agree with that, Chairman, but I think that it should be so considered that the building's been built first. [Graham:] Yep. I agree with that. [speaker001:] can I just add that the information in this, is in fact incorrect. The building was not built in ninety one, whether there's any relevance or not, where they're trying to prove that the building has been up for some time, they'd say, it's not, that building was put up this year. I built it. I think really I need to say that that someone been creating happens to be that they're not sold off and I don't believe they have sold off [everyone talking] sold it off [Graham:] But let's be fair about this. You don't know... in this case you probably do know, that the personalities are the same. But... if the blo if that block of land had been sold off, and somebody came along and wanted to put up farm buildings and a house, then we would support it, probably, because there's an area of land there that's viable. I agree wholeheartedly, with what we were saying, what we don't want to see is a whole one house block in the countryside, he wants to see it as part of a farmstead and order to prove that it's going to be part of a farmstead, the buildings should be prerequisite to go up first before the house does. [speaker001:] Is there not a time-scale That's for the put the details on a, on a smallholding. Well, that's a completely different thing. Ah. So they're saying you know, to, to prove that it's viable they they'll give you poly if you could have a poly-tunnel. Then they want you to run it for two year, have a mobile home, and if you could prove it's viable after two years, then there would be a reminder and we'll consider giving you permission for a house, otherwise, everybody could just put up one tun poly tunnel in half an acre and get a house, couldn't they? Mm. Immediately. Here, it's a little bit different, you've got a five hundred acre holding. Erm, I think is partially right. Some of that land belonged to subsequent farmers. I believe some of that land was farmed with Bishop's Court. And I think this I think I might be right. And I think it's because of the way the farmers have been split differently, and I think this is where it is very essential isn't it, I tell you what The actual lands, I think it is a little bit of different things. [Graham:] I, I, the butcher's rostrum you know, I'm glad you've made it. What we're actually talking about here, is the creation of a new farm, isn't it? Other part of the other farm [speaker001:] Other bits, isn't it they took it back, you say. [speaker003:] Is that house in the middle of the building plot? [speaker001:] Yeah Yes. As well as the circumstance in all those cases? Yes Yes So when, when they sold off the buildings, they made us no inclination that the was gonna farm it, he was in another job? Yes. [speaker003:] And then, then what happened then he decided to follow his brother's footsteps and farm it because the farm, the plot of land was available. So I, I think we've got to support this, Mr Chairman. in respect of what happened in the past. [speaker001:] Yes. No, I, I didn't know where the rules stood time-wise, about at least established as a farm for a certain number of years, which I, why I believe... I think, Chairman, if, if I may, is that we're going to be enough, the agricultural buildings should be built first, but it should sited relatively close to them. And I think he's settled on [Graham:] Creation of a farmstead. [speaker001:] It should be a farmstead. We don't want to settle on tie up. [Graham:] Oh, yes, of course. But, as, as, as it says in the report which we've had this evening, a bit of flexibility, a bit of balance. It's a good job, that somebody wants to revitalize these areas of land. [speaker001:] Yes. [Graham:] And as Cardinal said, growth is the only evidence of life. And we could [speaker001:] And you proved it [LAUGHTER] So can I ju ju just summarize. What [LAUGHTER] qualifications would you like to put on this, if we approve it? something some adequate dwelling. Buildings are put up first. First, yeah. I'll erm, Well related to the... related to the existing er agricultural or related to the agricultural buildings, that will be put up before this is built. Aye. yes All in favour?... Approval... any objections, no, carried. There we go. Application two is a full application for a Mr, Mr in for a detached garage at. I must confess when I first saw the plan, I was totally confused by it. The roads are not quite as they are shown. Erm, does anyone have any feelings on this application? [church bells] Harmless With approval. Yes. approval. With approval. Item three, another full application from a Mr for a single storey extension up at. Looks alright. Again I had a look at it, it seems perfectly in keeping. For what's there. Does anyone have any views? [cough] [clears throat] I, I do support it, but this really was a case here, where people were a little naughty when this was originally built. It was passed for a conversion, and there was a stone barn, wasn't there?... Yeah. That's right. And they, er when they did it, they knocked it all down, and that was really wrong and unnecessary, and though I think some of the flintstone was used, a lot of the flintstone went back in the builder's yard, and it was a criminal thing at the time. So, you know, whilst I'm a little bit reluctant in a way I think that's water under the bridge, and in my view actually the extension improves it all. It does. It appears we've done the same thing with the brick and the flints. I have to say there's a little bit grieving in the way... [speaker003:] Oh, yeah, but er, all to do with the planning, not past history. [speaker001:] I, I, I think that that erm, this particular, erm, the way that that, this, the barns once were developed, in actual fact, were, were part of the death knell of erm, Yes. barn policy as we knew it. And part of that barn policy even were it not worthy of extra has always been, that the, once you carried out the renovations to the barn that was, the actual extent of the building. So that, you know, they didn't actually look too far gone. In fact, in a lot of cases where they took away the rights for... Redevelopments. The redevelopment rights. Taken away. And certainly the percentages very never as high as they were on other buildings, were they? No, you could con twenty percent more than the barn that was existing... Yeah. and I don't know if that was exceeded in this case. Yeah. They did used to take away rights, which mainly why he's put his application in for this relative [Graham:] Yeah. I, I actually think they probably did use up all that was possible available to them at the time, and so, in some ways, this is against the spirit of the policy, although the policies have been changed, and I hear what Councillor said about improvement to the place, and so I don't think we'd serve any useful purpose in stopping these people doing this, because they're probably not the people who were responsible for the flagrant disobeying of the rules at the time. [speaker001:] Mm. But would that in any way affect what's happening now? [cough] This is just to give you [Graham:] Oh, that's unfair because [speaker001:] [everyone talking] Right. All those... sorry, you spoke. That Mr Chairman, to hear Councillor say that, because all we're saying is that these council officers aren't doing their job, didn't they inspect these buildings? We did on several occasions. But... No, I'm, I'm talking about building inspectors, because if it was supposed to have been retained, and they demolished it, and used it, you know, in another way, and not, not built it back. I mean, surely somebody's not carrying out their work? I mean, it's not for us to look into, but, No. it seems that as Councillor brought it up, I don't like to hear that very much. [speaker003:] This was all took into consideration when this application, [speaker001:] Yeah. This was all brought up Yeah. But that, that isn't, that would be part of regular Of course it would, yes, but It's not the right subject for application So, all approval. Okay. Carried. Item four, application by Homes, in conjunction with the for thirty six flats for residential development, on the land which I assume is at the rear of House, in erm, I will need some guides on it, because it's a ghost before my time, erm, does anyone like to Yeah. Can I just put the point that it stands at the moment. [speaker004:] Mr Chairman, we we were interested in buying House, so I think I'm not necessarily to be found erm, [speaker001:] Can I... offer, if you like guidance. I think it is for you purely to decide, that this application does not affect the house. This application is only the grounds. Mm. I would feel you don't have to... put a particular interest on thinks that's the house. [speaker004:] No, you, that's it, you're confusing the plan, erm [speaker001:] Right. Sorry. [speaker004:] they've just rehashed the old plan, and just drawn a red line round the bit they want us to look at, erm, this bit know it's a computer. [Graham:] Yeah, I've got, I believe that that should be made clear to you all that [clears throat] the area concerned here, is the area which is surrounded by the red line. Although the plan has been superimposed over an existing plan, erm, to be charitable it's at best confusing, erm, my feeling is that in actual fact the plan there doesn't actually show us, well enough, and you may consider that we ought to be asking for a much clearer plan before we make a decision. [speaker001:] So what'll they do, some back for thirty more? In the first pla in the first place, they tried for sixty, or something, they should I call back when Could you, could you do this for me? [Graham:] Current permission, I think at the moment, stands for forty seven sheltered units. That was won on appeal after withdrawal of the highway reasons, and the fact that the local authority hadn't backed up their refusal with more of the reasons which we put forward, for instance [speaker001:] That was nineteen eighty six. Nineteen eighty six, that was the appeal I attended here. So they [Graham:] What they've done now, they've got planning permission for forty seven sheltered units. The reason, the reason I keep is, obviously the parking qualifications for sheltered units, are about urgh, forty five parking spaces per unit. This application is for a lesser number of flats, but is not, is looking to clear itself of any encumbrance over occu occupancy. So they're not sheltered, they're purely residential, units of residential accommodation, so you've been asked to look at a at an application for, for a completely new residential block on the same grounds as was occupied by forty seven sheltered units. And doesn't take in the house. [speaker001:] Mm. [Graham:] Is that alright? [speaker001:] Yes, thank you. erm I, I erm, I am actually dead against this for various reasons, and I don't think I would bring up all the reasons that I am, because some of them are not absolutely purely planning reasons, which shouldn't be aired at this meeting, but I do feel that the provision there for thirty six properties will create a traffic hazard, and access problems, which, which I feel will support this Council at the, the traffic authority after having done a sufficiently detailed survey, I think was the problem, wasn't it? [Graham:] That was quite right at the time. [speaker001:] But to access all those so close to the cable way access, I've given it as unacceptable. I feel that the density, thirty six in there, is totally unacceptable. I also feel that the affect on the adjoining list of properties is unacceptable. I think that's the other, properties is that there's only [Graham:] Wah, urgh, I tried to argue the point at appeal, erm, if you look up the listing for these properties, er, in the area which back onto the mill stream, it's all the grounds are listed because it says quite clearly, that in the opinion of, they form a group, and it was one of the reasons which I'm glad you, well as you can see, this piece of ground is part of a listing, and although this existing permission, we're looking at it as a clean site, tonight, we're not looking at what has been passed. Our job is to look at putting those thirty six units on what is a clean site [speaker001:] What is a clean site That is because of my third contribution. The fourth, I think is the effect that thirty six of them, remember it's not older people, it's not shelters affect on the medical centre, and my fifth reason is, I don't believe that the plan, the, that er, the application we've got is detailed enough for us to give permission for outline thirty six. If you were giving outline for building, it would be different. But they're asking for for thirty six, Yeah. and I don't believe that is detailed for us, has enabled us sit here and say, yes, A there's room for them, and B there's enough parking, and C there's enough turning. So for all those reasons I have to refuse. [speaker003:] I would support er, most of what Councillor has said. What, what worries me as well, is the parking. With that, you must have thirty four parking spaces. One point five, thirty six times, got to have fifty four parking spaces. I cannot see that land. [Graham:] In actual fact, the one point five stipulation, I think East Devon have now put up to two, haven't they? [speaker001:] I don't know. [Graham:] They're in the process of putting it up to two. [speaker001:] For this type of? Yeah. [Graham:] For any residential accommodation. [speaker001:] You're absolutely correct, but the plan is very confusing, very vague. I can't even see thirty six going on there. No. There may be, you know, may be fifty odd parking spaces, but there's certainly not erm, what isn't clear wasn't too sure Two... three storey passed, is it? [Graham:] One point I'd like to make to er, [speaker001:] Yes... [Graham:] backing up, when I er, at, at the appeal, the medical centre made a very long presentation over the proximity, the closeness to their erm, surgery and they argued about the height of buildings, now it got passed as sheltered united, er, which means elderly and quiet occupancy. The fact that we've got partnership holders and sanctuary housing association, would seem to me that we're quite likely to get relocation and we've had all round the town at the moment, and you would have to agree that here is a very strong reason for, for the medical centre to be worried about the effect on the medical centre. [speaker001:] That's right, yeah. [Graham:] I, I, I couldn't back that up more strongly. [speaker001:] Right, anyone else? Care to say anything? list of erm... Yeah, common to, to that. We've got two letters from erm, the two adjacent neighbours, erm, particularly concerned with lack of privacy, car park next to the wall of the properties resulting in noise pollution and potential danger of property from thieves. Pedestrian access will be a short cut for everyone, especially the school children. They've made it a, a, a sort of through cut there, which is now going to allow people to cross over erm, it's, it's going to make erm, two points of pedestrian access shown on the north boundary at the site, will create new rights of way and will become short cuts for pedestrians and especially children. This is undesirable and I ask that they be disallowed, that a child-proof fence be required at this boundary which is already being eroded. Well, that's that one. Now, when this very similar application came up before, it was opposed by the county highway authority erm, had no objection, county conservation er, recommended refusal. Erm, the basis there was development overlook and affect privacy of nearby dwellings of the medical centre. Affect the setting of listed buildings detrimental to conservation areas, increasing traffic, danger to pedestrians, high standard of design not achieved to the site in the conservation area, affect a boundary wall and prob problems of subsidence and no provision for future use of House if used, jeopardized its future should be secured. We also recommended refusal, so did the ward member, and, refusal was indeed recommended. Erm, we commented also on the limited access and congested area inhibits service vehicles, removals, delivery vans, which are forced to park in the main road. Inadequate parking unworkable in this place indicated. Site cluttered would develop into a ru run down area. Psychological trap, whole site too crowded with consequent noise pollution and physical stress to the residents. Fire hazard, poor access in confined space for emergency services. Inadequate sewage facilities with consequent overloading. House would be isolated. Gross intr intrusion of privacy from adjacent properties. Size and shape of the site incompatible with surrounding area. Movement into and out of site would create a traffic hazard. Hazard to pedestrians regular use of footway by King's School pupils and would be impeded by vehicles using entry. Trees would be lost during construction of buildings. Sites adjacent too, overlooks the medical centre, and this, well, this one maybe not so now, anticipated age range and type of resident differs from original concept. That's enough, isn't it? Mm. Yeah. one of two things I think you'll find the reason we said about the on the site, and the design, was it was a detailed application, Mm. so we were able to consider that. Well, of course, we can't consider that this time, because it's outline so, so we can't, you know, you must con Mm. We have to go to We take, take the risk, But a lot of are actually applicable right now, but if those in favour basically resubmit... I think we should be saying, that whilst we agree with the site in outline, we are completely against the proposed usage of that site. Why We can't really say we've never approved it in outline, can we? Can't put... It's in the plan You can't put too many reasons, if you're gonna say the plan is not explanatory. If that's your reason, or you want a fresh plan, conditions. You cannot put conditions where you gonna refuse it, if you can't accept the plan. You can't have both of it. Well except some, some of these reasons were actually still quite clear, despite the state of the plan. You know, you gotta forget that you, you must remember them, that, that it's been passed by the minister. Something's gotta go down. Something's gotta go, whether you give permission before this or an appeal. You gotta have something on That was for wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. And that was You could actually can't it? Mm. Yeah. The basis, the basis that the appeal was, that because it was sheltered, several other providers didn't mean anything, Yes, yes, the traffic [Graham:] Because there wouldn't be the traffic generation, because you could... although they argued long and hard over the ability of service vehicles to service the site. And the inspector, would in all probability have upheld the refusal, had it not been for the withdrawal, three days before the appeal, of the highways' reasons for the refusal. That was done because the applicants did a detailed traffic survey, albeit on a Wednesday afternoon, and the county council hadn't done a detailed traffic survey, so they felt that if they went to appeal without that detailed traffic survey to back 'em up, they would have been rightly shouted that, or disputed by the applicants that had done one. [speaker001:] I think you've got to add a little bit to that. It was another one of the er, er the officers' major jobs, the East Devon officers didn't carry forward all our re [Graham:] All our recent refusals. [speaker001:] so they only had them, I think the major, they relied on such reports, as the strong traffic reason at that stage. That it would never get passed, just on highways alone. That was the officers' view at the time. Well, I must ad I'm a bit confused by all this, erm, and I don't mean... can I say One or two more reasons here to add, that in the main, I did move refusal for the reasons that I'd listed, which in the main are covered. I'll run through them again, if you like. If you would, please. The first, first reason was highways. And I would say it's on [church bells] highways with your traffic on the access and on parking, and added that to the list, I didn't say that in the first instant. So I think that still is, is the large play on. It appears from what I can see there, that the density in there would be too high, which it would not if it were sheltered. [Graham:] It, it's worth remembering, isn't it, thirty six properties on one acre. [speaker001:] On one acre. dense. Dense It's ridiculous, when you take into account all the parking that's got to be provided on it. Yes, how much do you Erm, and the effects on the listed adjoining properties. Can you pass it up, please Which would be the and I forget the three of them, maybe we would list them as well as Riley House. Well, I can't remember how much room there was left at Riley House. I need a majority. How much parking is there left in Riley House? Well, what are you going to do with Riley House, I mean you haven't got nothing yet. No parking at all. So, so, No at all No at all. So, it must be the effect, not only on the adjoining properties, but also on Riley House itself, and the inadequate amount of curbage left with Riley House. Erm, my fourth one was the effect on the medical centre, bearing in mind, but I didn't say that at the time, that there's to be no longer sheltered, and there could be young families, remember, more rowdy an element, and maybe we should make details of that. The fifth, was I considered the plans were not detailed enough for us to give permission for outline for thirty six. You may be able to give outlines, you may be able to Yeah. give just outline of the site, but certainly not. They've asked for a number, haven't they,spec specifically here, which I think that's detailed enough. You may wish to add drainage, I mean, we're not sure there is er, adequate er, capacity in the drainage... Well, that's the sewage again. Sewage, and erm, some developers in the area about contributions, don't they? You know, if they wish to consider that? Well, some of the reasons here can, can be repeated but, erm, if I can just run through these again. These ones, probably haven't been raised... Hasn't been raised. because they might be applicable. Erm, the first reason, is the size of the conservation area adjacent to the listed buildings. It does not preserve or enhance the area in any way. I think that's a fair comment to say, despite not having clear plans. Two storey, three storey. We've got plans of the houses, haven't we? Pictures of the houses. There are pictures of the individual elevations of the property. [Graham:] In actual fact, you see it, it's, there's quite a confusion, that they come for outline, and given you a... [speaker001:] Detailed plan detailed plan Yeah, yeah. It is, Chairman, that actually they are down against the erm, Mill Stream, the three storeys site, some of them about three storeys high. Is that clear from the elevation? Yeah, it says so on here, yeah. Two houses Well, that, that plan is a disgrace. It's scribbled all over it. Mm. Difficult to see what you've got. You know just by looking at it, [Graham:] Certainly say we wouldn't want [speaker001:] Well, erm, let's, let's look haven't got enough reasons to put down, erm, To what do we have parking within No, I, I... Well, if they're gonna put variations does anyone put three million? Two and three million. It's eighteen, but that's... Eighteen to twenty three. I know it's not specifically related to farming. [cough] You know, I do, I know we can't take that. That's the reason, that's right, yeah I think we covered that. Without saying that. [Graham:] Well, I think, erm, I'll just run through them. can't say that, let me see, er, inadequate parking spaces, you can't say that, because we're not, we sus we think we suspect inadequate parking, but it's still not clear from that plan what we actually... [speaker001:] No, I think what we are saying [Graham:] We've actually said the effect on the listed properties including Riley House, which would be left with insufficient curbage, I think that was the point we made. [speaker001:] You got that one? Mm. Right. You got And I think, Chairman, we should be reminded that this is a new application, nothing to do with the other one, and I think we should consider this as a new application. Yeah I think we have. Yeah. the reasons were brought forward. Yes. So how many vote... did you get erm Well, I got erm, highways, at the traffic end, with traffic problems, access and but obviously that start doing this Yeah. the too high density for the area. The effect on listed adjoining properties, Donithorn, Riley House and er, the other one, the name escapes me at the moment, erm, and that it will give insufficient curbage to Riley House when er, whatever development takes place there. The effect on the medical centre with erm, possibly, erm, different types of people living there Plans not detailed enough to erm, show for thirty six. Sewage and site in a conservational area, the houses are not appropriate. Yeah. You keep mentioning three storey building if they got to the amendment [Graham:] I think that's [speaker001:] The reason, basically the building weeks' solid trouble with them. [Graham:] Gentlemen, I, I might... I think we should add that the presumption for two accesses on the boundary against the land that is run. Because I think that one of them actually enters in the medical centre, doesn't it? [speaker001:] Yes, one of the access in the back of the centre, yes, I'm not sure Yeah. see that. [Graham:] It's on the site plan, there [paper rustling] yeah, they've marked it in. [speaker001:] what do you want to know? Pedestrian access... is it? Close one of those. Close pedestrian accesses. These two of The trouble is you've got a job to read them, haven't you? [Graham:] There's one there, one further to the left one's into the land that play area, or just below it. Then one's right in the doctor's area. [speaker001:] So? [Graham:] So the presumption that they would be allowed to do that's wrong, I, I don't think that should do it. [speaker001:] That's right, well why can't they go out beside the medical centre, again? what are you trying to do? That goes into the erm, Playground, doesn't it? playroom, or I don't know. Children's playground, goes right into the playground. Yeah. Right. Bet the children'll have their say. Plenty of I think that's a good enough reason, when I say I don't particularly want to add anything else. [everyone talking] Yeah, that's right. Do we have a proposal? I second it. second it. second it. [Graham:] All in agreement, with, with views that are recommended? All agreement with refusal? [speaker001:] Ye yes, sorry yeah. Oh yes. Did abdicate or what? [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Right, well the next, the next application is, is not on your agenda, it's application four A. Erm, it was an omission, an accidental omission. [speaker001:] it got hooked on the back of that one with a large paper clip. It is for a Mr erm, Ridgeway, and it's for a two storey extension to an existing house. Do you have any comments on that? I've looked at the house, looked at the site. Can't see it look up to anybody else. give it approval. I would agree with that. How do we, how do we, I second that how do we stand legally? Okay. That's okay, we don't have to advertise We don't advertise No, we don't advertise. So, that's all right, we don't really that's it. Right. It was an omission on our part. Yes, I just wondered whether we've got a problem or not? [Graham:] We, we would have if we didn't do it, because the applicant quite rightly said, what, he said was gonna do it without us [speaker001:] Yeah. Not, not with the timescale I understand it may well be delegated, anyway. single storey Right. extension. Two storey. Two storey. What's the the existing? Looks fine. move for agreement. Item five is a full application from Mr T for er, [Graham:] Demolition of the [speaker001:] Oh, demolition commercial oh, I was domestic commercial, couldn't think. Demolition commercial, for the construction of a pair of mews cottages at Ottery St Mary. Does anyone have any comments on that? We do, Mr Chairman, that Looks like it's very inhabitable. Yes, it looks very nice. The old slaughterhouse, wasn't it? Hasn't the abattoir gone? [Graham:] The old slaughterhouse, wasn't it? [speaker001:] The building's still there, and the back not a patch on the abattoir. [Graham:] And er, all the neighbours are extremely happy to see a pair of cottages, rather than any new conversion [speaker001:] What about the traffic, though? Well, they have to put up the There is access to the area. Is that the site, or is it under development not really. [Graham:] No, no, no, they're only just, actually fit, if you look at the plan, by creating an access some garaging, There's a maximum allowed to do there. Maximum you can get in. [speaker001:] What, garages as well? [Graham:] Garages as well. parking. [speaker001:] Ain't gonna affect the light of the houses that's already there in, in the street, is there? [Graham:] No. [speaker001:] Cos they're always cribbing about, er [Graham:] Is that In actual fact, you see the plan, the two houses are going to the bottom end of the site, as far away to the adja adjacent to West Holm. [speaker001:] So don't think they should put three, three properties on that little, on, on that coming out between the butchers and erm, [Graham:] Oh, that's access, oh, that's access to back of the grocery ones. And we, we, the permission was given to take away the garage. One turned it into a front room and one going down, and two in the alley on the left hand side, one in the alley on the right hand side. Access to three round the back. Access to what was once, but is now house, and was the access to the abattoir. [speaker001:] Right. motorway next Yes, motorway access is going to be a problem there, the increase traffic. No. I don't see it, I [Graham:] It's decreased traffic it's decreased the traffic for what was using it as a commercial premises. [speaker001:] Right. [Graham:] I [speaker001:] Getting rid of a nuisance that could be there. Yeah Like getting rid of a nuisance that could be there. Yes. If, if they could use this as a [Graham:] It is also worth remembering that when they put in for an application for ten flats, the advice from the Authority was that was only development and no parking, [speaker001:] Yes. [Graham:] but, that they would look favourably on two. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Graham:] Because I was quite heavily involved with that, and they withdrew that application, pending putting in one to com comply with what they were told from East Devon. [cough] [speaker001:] move approval. Right, move approval. Yes. Has anyone else giving reason for these [Graham:] I think we should there. I think we should say that we consider that that's er, would be far better than the old commercial units. [speaker001:] Very attractive. Enhancement of the area. [Graham:] Yeah, enhancement, that's a good term. [speaker001:] I don't know. S Begins with an E. [Graham:] Well done. [LAUGHTER] You've got that word [speaker001:] I was afraid that he would say what a pair [LAUGHTER] Right. [LAUGHTER] I don't see it []. Er, Manor, Holden Homes, detached bungalow, double garage at West Hill. Incidentally, erm, West Hill, had copies of those two that are relevant to them, and have no objection. Mm. They have relied, or... Oh, they did, yes. I have no objection, Mr Chairman. Approved. Move approval. Fine. Moved. [LAUGHTER] Yes. Right. Approved. Application number seven. Full application by the Otter Trust for anne annex extension, and it is an amendment to an approved scheme. This is an Otter. [Graham:] It's alright, isn't it? [speaker001:] How do you feel about? It looks alright. Move approval. Agree. Approval. Item eight is a full application for a Mr J for a carport, at Miss it's a Oh, sorry. I knew I'd be corrected there. [LAUGHTER] Miss stroke Mr. [cough] West Hill, and I'm sure you're all familiar with the... site. of the site. What's left of it. Could I make the point, that I think the footings were already there, because they'd started their double garage, which they then weren't allowed to have, and I think this is gonna stand on the footings. [Graham:] I think it's a very attractive site, and I don't see anything wrong with the carport. I think the bungalow's blended in very well. [speaker001:] Yeah. I already approved of it. [Graham:] Whilst I was against it initially, I am now very much in favour of it. [speaker001:] What I'm gonna say, if it goes anything like that plan, I think that that carport looks hideous, actually. Well, it's a trellis work with a poly roof. against it already. Yes. It is a temporary, I would say it's more temporary than permanent. I mean, I know on the plans are not very good, but it doesn't show where there is a roof, presumably there's a roof beside it, just like trellis. I mean, I don't know what it is, and I, I think it looks pretty horrible. it in there, but I, I think a double garage would have looked better than that, actually. I think that's worse than the double garage, and I'm afraid that I disagree, Mr Chairman. [Graham:] In my opinion, I think we'll have an application for a garage in twelve months' time. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. I think, I think so [everyone talking] [Graham:] What happened, happened up there, once, once that was lost on appeal, right, the whole of the handling of that by East Devon council just been poor, and then, what did they do, they decided to go for appeal, which was upheld over the garage. What they were really fighting was the principle of what had gone on before. Now, what you're saying is, if we don't allow 'em a carport or something there, they're gonna park outside. Quite rightly. Now do you want to provide them with any parking facilities off parking? [speaker001:] No. [Graham:] Parking there without a carport? Well, I can't con I, I think that could be very attractive, myself with the trellis work and roses... [speaker001:] And gro grow something up it? [Graham:] Yeah. If it matches in like the rest... [speaker001:] Er [Graham:] I mean, I sold up around West Hill you said many a time, how we think that's [speaker001:] Yes Yeah, but it's very, it is very unfortunate, in my view, the way this system, it's not this council, it's East Devon that mishandled this. You must get back to this every time. The access was never meant to be it was meant to be further in and and we all for well know, the permission was for a drive to come down through the wood, which would have been very attractive and a garage on the end of the property. Which would have been very attractive, unobtrusive and none of us would have been against it, and when they came to put in the application to convert it, making it a meter wider and turn that into an extra bedroom or whatever was, we [shouting] said [] that there was no parking, and we [shouting] said [] what would happen and East Devon went [shouting] ahead [] and approved that, and exactly in everything we've said which was recorded in this council [Graham:] Quite right. [speaker001:] And then, you know, I feel quite aggrieved in the way that we've handled it and East Devon have mishandled it. [Graham:] It's gone into us, and we've done it's here that's looked at it properly, and walked through the trees and even looked at every marking in the trees that were gonna come down. Done the whole job properly, and what happens, in come the major authority and just [clicking fingers] everything we done out the window. [speaker001:] Right, well, record as well. [Graham:] I I was just thinking, [speaker001:] selling [Graham:] that you may make it a condition of the carport roof, that they would put four inches of topsoil and plant grass there. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] It looks to me on the plan, [LAUGHTER] though that it looks such a flimsy structure, [cough] that you know its gonna be shored up with walls. It has to be walled On the application, the walls are in wood, and that's as much you get with a polycarbonate roof. Yeah. Well, I must hold it up. It's going to look like a garage, Yeah, well How do you feel about this application? [shouting] Are we in approval []? Put it to the vote, and let's get on with it. Right. All those in favour of approval? All those against? I just pass it. that's right. I think we ought to record it to, to West Hill council Yes. No. [cough] [Graham:] Come on everybody come on Clerk. Alright let's have it. Approved. Yeah. [speaker001:] Did you say that the ratepayers approved? [Graham:] Yes. They did. It should be noted. I think we should put that on the list [speaker001:] no objections from the [Graham:] But approval recommended by the West Hill ratepayers. [speaker001:] May I suggest you do that then, I don't like to look the other way. May I suggest you do that. [LAUGHTER] That's brilliant. They're a standard, but they like your carport. [LAUGHTER] This is an interesting thing, you and I vote against it, we are obviously dead against, Well, I, I don't se Well, I, I don't say that everything you do is lost. I don't plan the agenda, any other planning business? Anyone have any other planning business? No, thank you. Planning committee closed, I wish you all a very Happy Christmas. Thank you Councillor. Same to you. Same to you. I got to phone the councillors. What, tonight, or what? Tomorrow night. Sorry? I think I'm gonna have to give my apologies for tomorrow night. [Graham:] anybody who does fancy it, just but if you fancy popping round my house Christmas morning [speaker001:] Yes. Aft afternoon and in the evening. [Graham:] for a bit of grog. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er, I shall be [cough] unable to attend, unfortunately. What a shame Is there a bus laid on

[Lloyd:] Microphone up here, so I don't need to speak up. [LAUGHTER] That's four hundred and eighty, what we're doing... right, okay, so you're doing trade at the moment in lectures, and er, Bob has asked you to collect some data on er, world trade in wheat and cotton, is that correct?... Right, so erm, what's happened to, to world trade over time, say in the last century, what major changes have taken place in world trade?... Is the composition of world trade still the same?... Matthew? [Matthew:] Erm, to be honest with you, I couldn't tell you. [LAUGHTER] The first opportunity I got to look at this stuff is on Sunday on the library [Lloyd:] Right, anybody else want to help Matthew out? I mean are we still trading as much agricultural goods, or as much manufacturing goods as we [speaker003:] Because as a percentage in the erm, as a percentage of trade, agriculture has gone down hasn't it? [Lloyd:] Right, okay, yeah, that's true. What's happened to trade in manufacturers [speaker003:] That, that's increased as part of the trade in services, as a percentage of total trade, and they've increased while agriculture's beginning to decline. [Lloyd:] Okay, so, I think what we can say is that agricultural trade in absolute terms has probably risen [speaker003:] Mm [Lloyd:] over, over the century, er, although as a proportion, agricultural trade has fallen as a proportion of total trade, right, and that reflects a number of influences. Why might er, agricultural trade increase in absolute terms?... [speaker003:] Increased productivity. [Lloyd:] Yes, okay.... Anything else, I mean something fairly straightforward, nothing too tricky. [speaker003:] Incomes increasing. [Lloyd:] Yes, incomes have risen, what else has risen?... The number of people on the planet. [speaker003:] Mm [Lloyd:] That needn't necessarily increase trade across countries just bec could possibly become er, more self sufficient. However, rising populations have been an underlying influence for increasing trade in, in all products, not just in er, agricultural products. Er, certainly in sort of, transportation technology, the easier it is to trade, the more trade there will be, and transportation technology has increased dramatically over this year, so we can now ex exploit the comparative advantage that other countries have in particular commodities, whether they be agricultural or manufacturing, quite simply because transport costs are no longer prohibitive. At one point you know, there was no point buying wheat from the United States, alright, because although they had a comparative advantage in production, the costs of transportation were prohibitive and in essence we can produce it cheaper over here than the er, the import cost of foreign produced wheat. Okay, so er, transport technology has certainly been important in er, increasing trade. As has, as have rising incomes and rising population. Okay, so what acc what may have accounted for agriculture's decline in relative terms in world trade? [speaker003:] Erm, in undeveloped countries, the demand for food is generally [Lloyd:] Mhm [speaker003:] And, the more er, developed countries you get, the less trade there's likely to be towards developing countries, who actually become more industrialized then the market leaders generally become more. [Lloyd:] Yes, that's right, I mean [clears throat] as we get wealthier, we want to consume er, more manufactured goods basically. Manufactured goods tend to have income elasticities greater than one, so when we buy more of those, then it's quite likely that we'll actually be erm, importing more of those. Right, why might we be importing more manufactured goods? What factor I mean we could become self sufficient in all our, in all our manufactured goods.... What's one of the major reasons for growth in manufactures? [speaker003:] Greater trade in manufactures. [Lloyd:] Mm... then why aren't we self sufficient in, in say,manufacture manufactured goods, why do we import cars from Germany, as well as producing cars ourselves? [speaker003:] Because of demand, because of the demand exists in the first place [Lloyd:] That's right, why, why does that demand exist, what we, what are we demanding? [speaker003:] More variation of product. [Lloyd:] Yes, more product var variety. Alright, as we tend to, as each is observed empirically, as we, as we get wealthier, not only do we want to consume more of some good, but we want to consume different varieties of some, of some good. So what do we call simultaneous import and export of a similar good, the same good? [speaker003:] Intra-industry trade. [Lloyd:] Yes,in intra-industry trade, alright, which is different from inter-industry trade, where we're trading food er, food for manufactures, intra-industry trade is where we simultaneously import and export what is essentially the same good. Alright, intra-industry trade has become very, very important in terms of erm, world, world trade in, in general. Right, we like to prod we like to consume different varieties. Right. But can you think of another reason why, erm, why we import erm, goods that are similar to the goods that we produce at home? It certainly is variety, sort of, if you think of that as being a demand side influencing the consumers demand more variety. Can you think of a supply side reason?... What happens if you increase, say there's one country that is exporting to all countries of the world, alright, its production may well be very large therefore, er, what benefits might that have? [speaker003:] Economies of scale. [Lloyd:] Yes, economies of scale. Alright, so manufactured goods are a class of goods in which it's easy to differentiate the product, right. Very easy, because the goods are essentially differentiated alright. Although a car, if you think of a car being a car, we know as consumers that one car is not exactly the same as another car, very easy to put power steering on the car or to put go faster stripes on a car, you can differentiate the product very, very easily, alright. As a result, and because consumers like variety, it's likely that they'll want to er, consume different types of what, what is essentially the same, the same good. Compounding that influence is the fact that economies of scale in manufacturing production, alright, are non-trivial. They're, they're important. Like we can produce, we can reduce the unit cost of car production dramatically by increasing the s increasing the size of the plant, alright, and so even if, this is one reason why we don't, why street trade has risen dramatically in manufactures, it's because in manufactures there are powerful erm, economies of scale effects, alright. And so even if we could produce Mercedes Benz over here alright, we probably wouldn't alright, unless all Mercedes Benz production were specialized over here, production has become a lot more specialized in manufacturing, where you just have large plants producing erm, the entire world production of that particular erm, product. So, you know, all erm, Toyota Corollas or something are produced in Derby and those cars made in Derby will not only satiate the U K demand, but they'll also be exported to all other countries in the world, including Japan itself. Alright, so, economies of scale are a major driving force in er, increasing erm, trade in manufactures, and most of that increased trade in manufactures is intra-industry trade. Okay, so, perhaps the other side of that coin might explain why agricultural trade, right, has declined in relative terms alright. Income elasticities of demand for food tend to be less than unity, can we differentiate agricultural products? [speaker003:] No. [Lloyd:] No, there's just not the scope. Alright, you know, a potato is a potato is a potato. Although there are, you can differentiate the products but it's much er, much more difficult to do so, there's much less scope. [speaker003:] The differentiation affects mostly the service factor anyway doesn't it the retail [Lloyd:] That's right, that's right, yes, how we consume these products, yes, I mean, you're right, so a potato is a potato is a potato, but if it's pre-packed, graded and washed, that is sort of intrinsically different from er, er, sort of, mouldy, scruffy old potatoes that you could buy at a greengrocer. Alright, and that, that's where most of differentiation of food products erm, has emanated from, it's not changing the food product itself, right, because it's very difficult to do that, but it's the combination of food products and marketing services that erm, characterizes the differentiation.... Food commodities. Okay so, [clears throat] income elasticities are less than one for agriculture, whereas they're greater than one for manufacturing er, much less scope to differentiate in agricultural products, much more scope to differentiate in manufactured goods. How about economies of scale? Do you think there's, there are economies of scale in agricultural [speaker003:] Not, erm, not in the sense that there are in manufacturing because erm, simply from the fact that, in the scale of production, isn't really erm... it's not under the farmer's influence as much as manufacturing production is under the erm, certain enterprise's influence, because it's er, risky [Lloyd:] Yes. [speaker003:] weather conditions, things like that, so he can't increase the scale of production at his own will, and therefore can't exploit the economies of scale which can give an increase in production. [Lloyd:] That's right, yes, I mean that's [clears throat] that's very true, and, and another point that underlines the fact economies of scale in agriculture, I mean there are... there are economies of scale to a certain degree as you, as you said there, Matthew, but there's certainly not er, erm, they're not as large as the, as the economies of scale in, in manufacturing, primarily because in agriculture you effectively need land, alright, to increase erm, your output. Alright, and you, because that, that means of geo of the geographical constraint which isn't present in er, most industrial erm, plants I mean, you know, a very large, say in the plant at Toy Toyota, er, that's in Derby. It probably covers about three hundred acres, and that serves world demand for, for one, for one car. You know, three hundred acres is a fairly medium, a fairly small farm in the U K. Alright, in order to satiate the demand for wheat in the world, we'd need a farm, you know, the size of Wales, or something, or bigger than that, the size of Europe, or half the size of Europe, alright, so the, because of the, the nature of agricultural production, economies of scale just aren't, aren't there. You know, we start to run into dis-economies of scale er, much sooner.... That's simply because we're, production is dependent upon physical factors rather than machinery okay. So this meant, these sort of er, theoretical reasons may well explain a change in composition of, of world trade rela agriculture's relative decline, manufacturing's relative rise. I mean, I've got some statistics here erm. Okay, erm, before the First World War, agriculture's share of world trade was over fifty percent, a half of our, of all world trade prior to the First World War was agricultural products, alright. Today, it's less than fourteen percent. [speaker003:] Sorry could you repeat that please. [Lloyd:] Yes, before the First World War, over half of all world trade was in agricultural goods, whereas now, there's less than fourteen percent. So there's a marked decline there. Okay, erm, what other factor is, is often attributed to agriculture's of trade, or decline in agriculture's erm, composition of world trade? Something that GATT is trying to, to sort out. Yes, protectionism is often erm, suggested as the major reason why er, agricultural trade, is er, has declined so much. Protectionism since the Second World War, particularly, erm, has grown rapidly, however, there was, you know, we, agricultural protectionism isn't a thing erm, isn't a, a recent phenomenon, agricultural protectionism was around in the U K er, in the last century, eighteen twenties, erm, the, the corn laws, as they, as they were called, that was erm, a major, major set of tariffs on imports of er wheat primarily into the U K, prior, prior to that erm, in the seventeenth century, in sort of sixteen hundreds, alright, the U K used to be a net exporter, of our wheat, and we had a comparative advantage in those, in those times. And er, in actual fact our wheat exports were taxed alright, as a means of raising revenue, primarily, that's why they were taxed erm, a very easy way to obtain government revenues. So protectionism, I mean there's still protectionism if you're taxing your exports, it's a t so protectionism is, is not er, a recent phenomenon, however, the extent of protectionism has risen dramatically in this century, particularly since the Second World War. Okay, so why might protectionism erm, affect world trade? [speaker003:] Erm, because the governments are trying to protect domestic industries through and erm, they are trying to do this by actually physically blocking imports so domestic consumers have to, have to buy from domestic producers rather than from abroad to stop the domestic industry declining. [Lloyd:] Right, okay, I mean, essentially that's it. If you're supporting your own domestic agriculture, right, what are you doing, you're increasing your self sufficiency, if you're increasing your self sufficiency er, you may well be erm, well you will be substituting for import, what was, what's imported is now produced domestically alright, so the demand for imported agricultural goods will decline. Okay, it is often argued that, I mean this is the principal reason why agricultural trade hasn't been in the GATT negotiations, because agricultural er, protectionism has been enshrined in domestic agricultural policy,govern policy makers will say, we are protecting er, our own domestic industries right, because we, because of er, erm, deleterious effects that would be imposed, or the burdens that would be imposed on domestic agriculture if we didn't, we don't think that the fabric of the rural society could withstand the reversion to laissez faire in agricultural goods. It, it's a domestic policy, hands off, it's got nothing to do with international trade at all, it is purely a domestic policy and that is essentially the argument that is erm, prevented agriculture erm, from sort of slipping through the GATT net. Alright, it's domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, it shouldn't er, be included in international trade. Clearly, there's a very naive and simplistic view of, of er, protectionism. Protectionism in any form will affect tr will affect trade and er, but nevertheless the agricultural lobbies have been sufficiently strong to withstand pressure from GATT to include agriculture in, in the negotiations. If you bear in mind that virtually every other product is, has been able to er, to be accommodated within GATT, it shows that the agricultural lobby is pretty damn powerful, alright, not only in this country, but throughout the world erm, to prevent that, you know, much more so than steel, coal, cars, computers, any of those industries that you might think oh, pretty powerful lobby groups, er, haven't got a patch on the farmers, but er... right, okay, so those reasons may count for erm, for protectionism, er, sorry, for er, the relative de decline of er agricultural trade. What other effects does protectionism have on agricultural markets? Alright it reduces trade in agricultural products, but it has other effects? [speaker003:] Over time it makes the domestic industry less competitive. [Lloyd:] Yes, very true. [speaker003:] If there's more competition, it makes if there's the same amount of protection amongst er, rival countries, it's not their hard luck, but if they're trading competitively enough. [Lloyd:] Yes, I mean, any protectionism, right will reallocate resources, alright, away from the most efficient uses of resources and toward inefficient uses of resources. That's what protectionism is, just reallocation of resources. Alright, so supporting agriculture right, means losses elsewhere in the economy, and this is why protectionism is always a bad, is always a bad thing in terms of net welfare. Alright, although the farmers are benefiting alright, from protectionism alright, you know, we're, we as tax payers and consumers, are diverting er, resources into agriculture away from somewhere else. Alright, and because that, protectionism is required to do that, we must be taking resources away from more efficient industries and putting them into, into agriculture. Like, instead of, you know, spending erm, in the hundreds of millions of, or billions of pounds that we spend on agriculture, supporting agriculture, we could use those resources to produce a lot more of other goods. Alright, so a pound spent in agriculture, alright, is much less, is worth a lot less than a pound spent elsewhere, right, cos farmers are relatively inefficient. I know in the free market, resources will be allocated, erm, in an optimal way, in that those, er, those sectors that, that are the most productive, in economic terms, you know, they can produce more output per unit input, alright, those sectors that can do that will get the resources. Alright, what's happening now, is that we're taking resources away from those efficient sectors and giving it to inefficient agriculture. Now, there are good reasons why we might want to do that, but in economic terms you'll reduce the net welfare of the economy, or the world simply because you're diverting resources away from efficient modes of production into inefficient modes of production. [speaker003:] It's quite a shortsighted policy, if you look at the er, because, if you erm, if you introduce subsidies to actually protect the domestic industry then that's often going to cause retaliation from other countries and therefore effectively sealing off any trade, any effective trade at all, and consequently because there's no competitive pressure on the domestic industries, they're not going to feel the need to make themselves more productive, which they would do when there was competition. So therefore, the decline is just going to become a natural part of agricultural [Lloyd:] That's right, that's right, and er, you know, we see this in, in all sorts of sectors, where you know, protectionism has effectively prohibited trade. You know, you've only got to go to Eastern Europe and China, you know, these places have been completely erm, insulated from any world trade. They've been heavily er, subsidized. What happens when you open up the market twenty years down the line, you realize that these industries are dinosaurs, they're using technology that's thirty years out of date. Right, now that hasn't happened to quite the same degree in, in agriculture, because a lot of agriculture erm, the protectionism that we've given is in terms of high, high prices. Alright, and so there's an incentive for these small producers, alright, to maximize their yields, alright, because the more they produce the higher income they, they'll have. Alright, so how do they maximize their yields? Well, they erm, they use the latest techniques, agriculture hasn't become, er, hasn't stagnated in the presence of protectionism, because there's always been an incentive there for farmers to maximize their yields. You know, they haven't been given erm, er, an income regardless of what they produce. Alright, this was, this was often the, the case say er, Eastern European industries where they just sort of said right, okay you're, we're going to subsidize this erm, plant that produces cars [speaker003:] [clears throat] [Lloyd:] alright, there were no, there were very few production targets, if there were production targets, erm, er, they were very low, essentially the support that Eastern European car manufacturers got was, was not coupled right, to production. Whereas the support the farmers received right, has always been coupled to production, so the more they produce, the more support they get, the higher, the higher their incomes. And as a result there's always been erm, an incentive there to increase agricultural production. How do they do that, well, they employ the latest technology cos, they you know, U K farmers are some, are some of the most erm, er, well they use some of the most highly capital intensive techniques of production. You know, using artificial insemination techniques, they're using erm, some er, designer er, seeds for their er, for their crops, they're using scientifically engineered agro-chemicals, they're using state of the art machinery, and they're, they're using those, that technology to increase output because the more they produce, the more support, or the higher their, their income will be. Alright, so they haven't become [speaker003:] [clears throat] [Lloyd:] they haven't become dinosaurs in the same way as the Eastern European car manufacturers might have done. Erm, so we've got, resources are always going to be taken out of the most efficient sectors if we, if we use protectionism. What happens, what other effects have there been as a result of protectionism in agricultural trade? Trade is reduced relatively, but it's had impacts on, on the world market. What has the world market become? What's, what's happening to prices? [speaker003:] artificially inflated [Lloyd:] Well, well, domestically yes, that, that's true. Domestic farmers receive high, higher prices, but what happens to, to the world market?... That's good, erm, yes, there's a, there's a continuing debate as to whether agricultural prices have fallen, right, but it appears that agricultural prices have in have indeed fallen over the, over the last century. Right, there's been a decline, if you think back to our, that marketing we did in agricultural transformation process, one of the results of that model, was that the prices of agricultural goods relative to manufactures would fall over time right. And this seems to, this seems to have occurred. Erm, I've got some more statistics here that er... right, I mean there have been, the reason why it's difficult to pick out trend, long-run trends in agricultural prices is because, in very sort of, erm, short periods throughout any long, long sample alright, there will be very high agricultural prices. Alright, simply because erm, there is, inelastic demand alright, and if there's a very bad crop throughout the world, prices will suddenly just, just sky-rocket for, for one or two years, so that makes it difficult to pick out an underlying trend because sometimes agricultural prices are very, very high. But by and large when we take out these very unusual or exceptional years, agricultural prices do seem to have fallen. Erm, let me just see in the report... if you look at the nineteen eighties erm... yes, between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine, the volume of agricultural trade, alright, grew by twenty six percent, alright, now that was a third of the growth of manufactures, alright, manufactures were growing by nearly ninety percent over that period, alright. During that same period, food export prices fell by eleven percent alright, whereas manufactured export, prices of manufactured exports rose by twenty percent. [speaker003:] How much did it fall by? [Lloyd:] Eleven percent. Okay [speaker003:] Manufactured goods? [Lloyd:] Rose by twenty, twenty percent.... Okay. Protectionism also leads to price volatility on, on world markets. Why, why might protectionism lead to volatility?... If we think, if we assume there's a, a world, a world market for say, wheat, right. Wheat's growing virtually throughout, throughout the world right. If there's a supply side shock, erm, if we take bad weather in say the northern hemisphere, that's going to affect prices, but because there are some producers who sell on the world market who come from the southern hemisphere, right, perhaps, there's good weather in the southern hemisphere, and that's, because there's a larger geographical area over which erm, production is spread, it's less likely that we, we're going to see major fluctuations in supply right, and as a result it's less likely that we're going to see major fluctuations in price. Now, if you contrast that with the protectionist case, we say, virtually in the whole of western Europe, Japan, erm, to a lesser extent America, but the main consuming areas for say a commodity like wheat right, they're all self sufficient. Let's assume they're all self sufficient, the world market essentially becomes a residual market, it's not the market place where everyone goes any longer, it's the market where just a few people will go. Those countries that are not self sufficient, who can't afford to have erm, er, expensive agricultural support policies in place. Because the, the market becomes much smaller, right, there is, world trade in agricultural products has fallen relatively speaking, right, as a result, that market is going to be very, very volatile, it only takes say er, bad harvest in Argentina, or er, Australia, in one country, that doesn't have support programmes, to affect the world market substantially, because that one supplier is now relatively large, because most major erm, countries are self, are now self sufficient. So the world market is a bit of misnomer, it's not a world market, right, it's a residual market. Right, comprising the erm, the suppliers and consumers of all those countries that don't have, that aren't self sufficient. And seeing that most countries are self sufficient either through, well primarily through protectionism, in that, that market's going to be very volatile, it's going to very susceptible to changes in output from one region or partic or, or one country. And this is why, one of the reasons why we've seen, we've witnessed increased price volatility over the last forty years right, it's because world markets have tended to become much more residual, much less world, much less worldly. Why's that been the case? Well, it's because protectionism has meant, has led to self sufficiency in the main, er, in the main consuming countries.... Okay right, erm, tell me, tell me something wheat and cotton. You were asked to collect some data on wheat and cotton. What er, what have you found out then?... [speaker003:] For wheat, er total world, world trade has increased over the last thirty years, from er, it's there somewhere, er, from about sixty, from forty one thousand three hundred and seventy seven thousand metric tonnes to er... to about eighty four thousand four hundred and four thousand metric tonnes [Lloyd:] Right. [speaker003:] somewhere in that region, so it's increased a lot, but trade say in Europe has, has decreased in wheat over that period. [Lloyd:] Okay, so we've been saying that, I mean clearly, I mean that, that's good evidence to suggest that world trade in absolute terms in agricultural goods is, is increasing, but as a proportion of world trade erm, it's er, we know, we know that, we know that it, it's falling. Right now, I've got some data here which says, let's just have a look... er... well the important point is that, oh yes, okay, erm, I'll just read this out [reading] developed countries dominate most aspects of world agricultural trade, as exporters or importers, they were involved in eighty seven percent of all world trade in nineteen eighty eight. Now, some fifty percent of this commerce takes place among developed countries. Over, of which, half, over half is accounted for by intra-EC transactions, under the Common Agricultural Policy []. Right so nearly ninety percent of all world trade right, occurs between developed countries. [speaker003:] Can you just repeat those figures again, please. [Lloyd:] Yes, eighty seven percent right, in nineteen eighty eight of world agricultural trade was between developed countries. Erm... right now, half of that, erm, eighty seven percent of world agricultural trade, half of that is accounted for, right, by intra-EC trade in agricultural goods. Okay, so the European Community, there, there are a lot of world ag a lot of world trade, right it's not world trade, it's trade within the European Community, right, and that trade has been stimulated by the Common Agricultural Policy. Right, so although world wheat trade has risen there, okay a lot of that world wheat trade will have been the U K selling wheat to Germany and er, Germany selling wheat to, to the U, to the U K. Alright, so a lot of that world trade will be intra-EC, not what we would think of as, as world trade, because they're both very inefficient producers, they're just selling er, inefficient products to one another. Right, erm, I think yes, we'd better, we'd probably better leave it there. What I recommend you, you look at, I don't think it's on your reading list, no it's not, it's not on your reading list, but there are copies of it in the library. You get a very good feel for, for world trade and the problems that are currently in the news at the moment with GATT, it's a book entitled Current Issues in Agricultural Economics, right, Current Issues in Ag Econ it's edited by er, the one and only Tony Rayner and er, David Coleman, so Rayner and Coleman are the editors, [speaker003:] How do you spell Rayner? [Lloyd:] [spelling] R A Y N E R [], and that's your head of department in case erm, so if you look in that book in chapter four, right, there's er agricultural trade and the GATT, if you look er, if you read that chapter, it'll give you all the information you need to know about erm, agricultural trade, erm, how it's changed, what the costs, there are a lot of estimates of the costs of agricultural protectionism, and as the benefits to liberalization of er, of trade, and also it gives er, a view of erm, er the Uruguay round of GATT. Why, why agriculture has been introduced in, into, into the GATT negotiations after forty, after forty years. Why has it taken forty years for agriculture to be incorporated. But I think there's a couple of copies in the, in the library erm, because this, this book's often used in other, in other years. If you just have look at that chapter four, that will give you a, some good erm, some good information, some, some good statistics. Right, okay, I think we'll wrap it up there, thanks very much.

[Chris:] Right, what er we're going to do er, today is start er, supply, because we've dispensed with our, of demand we're now going to have a look at the nature of agricultural supply. What I'll do this morning is just give a general introduction to supply response, erm, and then er, on Friday, we'll start to develop erm, theoretical models of agricultural supply and response called a Nirdel supply and response model. The first thing to note about agricultural supply and response is that it is immensely complicated, alright. I think what we'll do, just start by writing up what we could describe as a sort of theoretical er, supply function. Right, so the quantity supplied right, let's just say, as a function of price of X, the prices of other products, Y, right, to N, prices of inputs one to N, er, what other things can we include? The number of firms supplying the industry, er, we'll go through these in a bit more detail in a moment, I'll just put them down. Size distribution R, technology used in production, T, stocks, weather, er, risk aversion, I'll go through all these later, I mean. The list of possible influences on supply is, is exhaustive, erm, and as a result any models of agricultural supply response tend to be very, very simple, and it's very easy to get a complicated model simply by looking erm, at why, one of these factors, disregarding er, any other, any other of these complications. Erm, but agricultural supply is complicated simply by the, the actual nature of supply in that you know, farmer has N, N products that he could produce. Alright, he could grow wheat, or he could grow, grow barley, possibly he could transfer into milk production, pig production, erm, so the prices of all those other commodities are going to be important. Er, this production of good X, likewise inputs, huge variety of inputs used in agricultural production, er, may again, er, will have ramifications on the supply of any one particular good. Right, but nevertheless, we can say that if the price of X rises, right, it's likely that the constant of X is going to rise. Right, it simply serves its purpose, right, higher prices will mean greater revenue, and if other things remain constant then that means more profit. So we've got, as I say, we could hypothesize a, er positive relationship between knowing the price and er, quantity supplied. However, [LAUGHTER] just to complicate things [] at a very early level, it's often observed that agricultural products have what's called a perverse supply response, in that there's a negative relationship between prices and output. Can you think of a reason why that, that might be the case? Why if prices fall, right, should output rise, or might it rise, any ideas? [speaker002:] Because er, to produce more output you have to have a bigger stock, and therefore the price goes up, so you produce more, decreasing not quite so much, and keep a greater percentage than you did last year, so that for cows, as the price goes up you've got to counteract it again, cows this year, and try to sort of, keep my, get my herd bigger and bigger, and profitable. [Chris:] That's right, so instead of, so if er, say if the price of erm, yes, say, meat went up, erm, so the price of beef, beef went up, you may want to increase the size of your beef herd, how do you increase the price of your beef herd, well you, you don't sell as, as many cows to the slaughterhouse as you might otherwise would, you know, would do, because you want to increase your herd for, for later years. Alright, so what's coming now is this idea of time is very important in agricultural supply response. Right, if we want to increase the long run output we may have to reduce short run output. Okay yes, that is er, very good, very good example. If you think of it the other way when, what happens when a price, when a price falls, alright, if farmers er, assume that price fall will be sustained over a number of periods, then they think, right well in order to achieve the same level of income, right, as I did previously, if prices have fallen, I'm going to have to increase my output. Right, the sort of the agricultural treadmill process, this is often referred to er, in that price reductions lead to increases in output as farmers try to maintain some satisfactory level, level of income. And this an argument that's often put forward by the National Farmers Union, and other agricultural lobby groups, essentially erm, er,, it's saying to sort of er, the European Community when they're price setting, look there's no point in you er, reducing agricultural product prices, cos all that's going to do is increase supply. One of the main problems of the European Community is over-supply, alright, so they try and use it as an argument, this perverse supply response, as an argument to maintain prices at their current level. Alright, now, whether there is a perverse supply response is, is an empirical question erm, and it's generally observed that perverse supply response is about as common as a that we looked at in demand analysis. Attracts a great deal of attention, erm, from theorists, but in er, in reality, it's not as common as some lobby groups might suggest that it is. But nevertheless, we don't necessarily always need to observe a positive erm, a positive relationship between own price and er, quantity supplied. Right, if we broaden the number of commodities, and recognize that er, farming is a multi-product enterprise, alright, farmers just don't produce one produce, alright, they tend to produce a whole range of products, and therefore we've got to accommodate these inter-relationships between prices of barley, prices of wheat, prices of oil seed rape,s and er, and so on and so forth, and there can be a nu a number of fairly complex inter-relationships er, there. Alright, if products are competing, alright, say like wheat and barley, they, they could be, termed competing products in supply, so if the price of barley went up, erm, that may have implications on the amount of output of wheat produced. Alright, simply because farmers switch production, alright, away from wheat, into the more prosperous barley. Alright, now not all products are going to be, you know, you can't switch with the same amount of ease across all products, there are only, you know, if you are erm, a wheat farmer in the south east of England, alright, you're not likely to switch into milk production just bec just because milk prices have risen. Right, you don't have er, the climatic conditions, or possibly even the expertise erm, to, to, to sort of, to switch. Alright, so, although there may be some switching possible, it's, that's, the degree of switching won't be the same for, for all er, for all commodities. Alright, not only do we have competing products on the farm, but we have joint products on the farm, in that if you rear sheep, sheep are not only used for the meat that they produce, but also the wheat [LAUGHTER] [] the er, the wool that's on, that's on their backs. Alright, so increases in er, say the subsidy on sheep will have impacts on the wool market.... Okay, but if, as a general statement, if products erm, are joint products in supply, it's likely that there'll be a positive relationship right, between the price of er, the joint product and the quantity supplied of the, of the product in question. Right. So we need to know, on what, on what farms are products er, competing or erm, or, or are they produced jointly. Okay. Something else that's very important there, T, denoting the effect of technology. God, this is really, hello can you still hear me? Oh well, right, so technology is very important. The effect of technology is twofold. The first effect of technology is that it increases the productivity of farms, right. Most cereal yiel yields, potato yields have risen between two and three percent per year er, in the U K. Right, and that increase in production has come about through the use of technology, whether it be agro-chemicals, better seed varieties, more mechanization, technology has increased production per unit of land, alright, per unit of labour. The technology also has the effect of increasing the variety of production methods... farmers can either er, rear livestock extensively, or intensively, where the technology for intensive production exists, and if you're not familiar with the technology of intensive say, milk production erm, or, or it doesn't exist, then clearly you won't be able to, to use those intensive tech techniques.... You know, you can grow bananas in Scotland if you want, the reason why you can do that is that we have the technological know-how in order to do that. Okay, we can't really say anything about agricultural supply unless we acknowledge the institutional setting in which farmers er, actually produce food. Now, in most countries in the developed world the institutional setting is by far the most important factor, alright, simply because food subsidies and protectionism, er, is er, second to none in agriculture.... Alright, and policy measures designed to protect agriculture, can have either a direct effect on production or an indirect effect. For a direct effect, well, think about milk quotas, supply and control of potatoes in the potato market, potato quotas, clearly [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] clearly the government is saying you are only allowed to plant a certain acreage, but that will clearly affect erm, farmers, farmers' response. Indirect effect is, is through, through prices, in that most erm, intervention in agricultural markets is through er, price manipulation. Alright, higher prices mean that in order to increase income, the farmers need to produce more output, right, there, so erm, there's a coupling of support to, to output. Right, so the more that you produce, the more in the higher income you'll get, because prices are higher. Right. So how do farmers produce more in that situation, well they apply lots of technology. Right, they apply agro-chemicals er, and so on, use machinery, etcetera. Alright, so although the institutional setting can have a direct effect alright, it's much more likely that the effect will be indirect, right, through, through high prices, and in order for, farmers to er, reap the benefits of support, they need to maximize their yields, and that's what farmers have done in this country. That's why yields have grown so much because there's been a certainty of relatively high and growing prices, and therefore, in, in order to, to maximize their income, farmers are, er, maximizing yields. Alright, yield maximization is not a necessary condition for profit maximization, alright, in er, in a free, free market. Alright, however, when prices are fixed, it cer certainly is. Right that's, we've already mentioned or alluded to the fact erm, that time is very important in agricultural supply. Right, and in virtually any agricultural supply response model, we'll need to include time. Most agricultural response models er, are dynamic, in that they do incorporate time. Why, why is that the case? Why do we need a dynamic specification?... Well, we ought to recognize that if prices are increased there won't be an instantaneous er, change in supply which in inferred from our static models.... Essentially because there is a erm, a production lag, or a growing season that we, farmers will have to base their production decisions alright, on previous prices. Alright, when the supply comes on to the market, you know, it may be nine months down the road if it's an annual crop, if you're looking at something like erm, production of cocoa, right now, a cocoa tree takes about nine years to mature, therefore alright, you're not going to know what prices are going to be nine years down the road, you're going to have to base your production decisions and therefore your output decisions on what prices are nearly a decade, nearly a decade ago. Okay, so because there is this production time lag, there is a growing season, right, we need to incorporate time into our models. So that's one reason why we need a dynamic specification. Another reason is that farmers are often reluctant, right, to change their output, erm, or adjust their, their output instantaneously, and either un unable, or basically unwilling, and there is psychological resistance to changing the technique of production. Alright, if an innovation comes onto the market that enables a farmer to increase his output, alright, if that er, innovations that lies, lies outside of erm, sort of orthodox or traditional methods there may be a psychological resistance to actually adopting it simply because we're a newfangled thing ooh, I, I don't know how it's going to, how it's going to work. They say it's going to increase production, but it may involve other costs. It may, although production on average may rise using this innovation may increase the, the variability of output, and farmers don't like variations in output. It may off it may also take time for farmers to acquire the skills necessary in order to increase, or to use, to adopt this technology. Alright, and will give, give rise to a delayed response, so even though prices may rise, farmers' output response won't be immediate, right, not only because of the growing season that's involved, but due, but due to psychological resistance, erm, to the adoption of that technology, and also it may take time to acquire the necessary skills to implement that technology.... Right, [clears throat] er, okay. Other things that might, er, impinge upon the supply response over time, might be things like erm, er, rotations. Now rotations are frequently used in agriculture, and if you're locked into a rotation, it doesn't really matter what happens to current price, you're not going to be able to af to change your output, right, because you've got to er, keep into this, in this rotation. You've got to leave land fallow, or erm, you know, you, you can't indulge in mono-culture continuously, or if you do, you've got to be, you've got to manage the soil condition very, very carefully indeed, you can just er, produce a desert if you're not, if you're not careful. Alright, so where farmers are locked into a specific rotation, and rotations are quite generally used, alright, they may not be able to erm, change their output erm, until they can change the rotation. Alright, a, another reason erm, we could term asset fixity, it's in general erm, fixed, fixed factors, right, erm, or fac factors of production in agriculture are dominated by fixed factors, right. Essentially land and expensive capital machinery. Okay. So, in the short run, by definition, you can only change output, the response or by changing variable factors in production. Changing the level of, [clears throat] agro-chemical intensity, right, possibly er, labour input. Alright, but you won't be able to change, the d the, the underlying constraining factor erm, of production, which is the amount of land you have. Alright. Alright, so, short run supply response is generally much more inelastic than, than long run supply response, due to this asset fixity argument.... Also, farmers are going to be, because most of the assets on a farm are fixed assets, right, farmers are going to be very reluctant, alright, to cease production just because prices are low for a couple of years. Right, economic theory tells us that production will continue in, in the short run providing average variable costs are covered. Alright. [speaker002:] [cough] [Chris:] Now, if most of the erm, factors of production used on the farm are fixed factors, farmers may well continue for years and years erm, because although they're not cove covering total costs, or, or total average costs, they are covering average variable costs, alright. The costs of the seed, the cost of chemicals, the cost of casual labour. Alright. So even when prices do fall very low for quite long periods of time, alright, farmers will still maintain production, even they're making losses. I mean, you can make losses in the short run, it's rational to do so, alright, where, where a large proportion of your costs are, are fixed costs essentially. I mean if you, in the agricultural depression of the nineteen thirties, that's a depression that lasted erm, the best part of a decade, you know, but farmers didn't go out of production you know, for about five, six, seven years down the line, because virtually all of their assets were tied up in fixed assets. Right, they're able to cover their variable costs, alright, but not their, not their fixed costs. And so it took a great deal of time erm, in the nineteen thirties, for farmers to cease production. It did occur because the depression was so er, was so long erm, but by and large, farmers don't go out of, don't cease erm, production just because of a couple of years of er, poor harvests or low, low prices. Right, I mean the exceptions to, to the sort of, that general sort of rule of thumb are enterprises where variable costs account for a large proportion of total costs, things like egg production, pig production, they tend to be very short run supply elasticities tend to be very high in those type of enterprises, primarily because most of the costs, alright, are tied up in, in variable costs. Alright, you don't need expensive machinery, large amount of land, right, to produce or, or pigs. I've got a number down here, er, seventy percent of total costs of egg production are var are variable costs, and essentially that's the feed, the chicken feed. Right again, horticulture is another enterprise where fixed costs only represent a quite small proportion of total costs. Alright, in something like horti horticulture, right, the main, the main cost is going to be harvesting costs, the labour, the labour costs, right, and this is why if you go into the er, into somewhere like Somerset when there's been a bumper harvest, and just see the fruit rotting on the trees. Farmers won't even bother to harvest it, right, simply because, the bulk of it, the total production costs, will be labour, will be the labour costs of harvesting, and if they can't cover those labour costs of harvesting by selling their produce, which they won't be able to if there's been a bumper harvest because prices are very low, they'll just leave the things rotting on the trees and er, that is, that is what, what happens quite regularly in horticultural markets which tend not to be markets that are supported through the Common Agricultural Policy. Right, [clears throat] erm... So compounding this effect of asset fixity may be erm, the case where a number of similar products, or competing products er, their, their prices fall simultaneously, so if you're, you know, if you're wheat, if you're a cereals farmer in the south east of England, alright, and the prices of wheat, barley, and virtually all, sort of, oil seed rape, anything else that you can use the land for, if they all fall, you know, there's no point in switching production, alright, so you may continue to, to produce, even though the price of the product has fallen, alright, because the prices of all other competing products has fallen. Right, and you simply may not be able to switch into milk production or horticulture, because you don't have the technological know-how, or the soil may be inappropriate, the climate may be inappropriate, right, so that's another factor, influencing, well making er, supply quite rigid, quite inflexible in, in the short run.... Erm, clearly in an in any agricultural supply function, you may want to incorporate the fact that weather plays a vitally im important, important role. How do we incorporate that? I don't really know, it's, it's quite difficult. Alright, because the weather, although clearly er, important, is a multi-faceted concept, in that it involves rainfall, sunshine hours, and not only the amount of rain, the amount of sun, but when those things actually occur. Alright, I mean, erm, I don't know if you'll be able to see this... right... [LAUGHTER], erm, let's just do it like that, I haven't got the overhead with me today. What I've got here is a time series of potato yields over time. Right now, potato yields are quite variable, right and erm, not only are they variable, but on this time series of yields you can, you can see the effects of technology. Right potato yields are just er, are rising quite dramatically, particularly since this point here is the end of the Second World War, and over the last part of this graph you can see yields have risen dramatically. But notice here in seventy er, seventy three and four, is that right, seventy three and four, alright, yields fell, alright, by about a third, well, well over a third in two, in the two years. That was the effect of weather, right. In the first year, right, there was not enough rain, right, in order to swell the tubers, right, presumably the same thing happened in the second year, but no, the reason why er, yields were very low in nineteen seventy four, was because there was too much rain. Alright. Okay. The weather's pretty complicated to model and er, although it is vitally important in er, agricultural supply, it's very difficult to incorporate into, into models. If it is incorporated, there's usually an index of er, of rainfall that's used. Right [clears throat] another thing that we want to er, want to incorporate is risk or un or uncertainty. Agricultural production is inherently uncertain. In a free market that uncertainty comes from both erm, production uncertainty, good, good yields, bad yields due to poor weather, or good weather, but also comes from price uncertainty. Alright, now farmers are notoriously risk-averse, right, in the face of uncertainty. Right, so given a choice between erm, an average, a guaranteed income of say fifty pounds per hectare... right if they're given a cer a certain, if that fifty pounds is certain every year, alright, they will choose that every time in a, er, well just yes. A cert certainty equivalent of fifty pounds per year would be erm, would be desired, or chosen virtually all the time, in preference over erm, incomes of sort of zero and a hundred in alternate years. I mean, in the long run their both, they both give the same outcome, alright, but farmers want to try and avoid that variability of income, alright, so they'll much prefer to, instead of having, you know, they probably prefer erm, a certain income of forty pounds rather than erm, an equal chance of getting one hundred pounds or zero. Right, clearly that's not erm, profit maximizing. Right, however, variability is something that isn't taken into account, right, in our normal models of profit, profit maximizing behaviour. Right cos they're static models, alright, there's no uncertainty there. When we include uncertainty, er, we ought to acknowledge that farmers may behave not as profit, profit maximizers erm, but as profit satisfiers, and that's reflected in their, in their risk-aversion. Right, now if they're acting rationally, right simply because you have a zero income of say two years on the trot, you may just well be driven out of business, if you're er, a farmer in the developed, developing world you may er, possibly thrown off the land, or you may even starve. Alright, so farmers like to er, reduce erm, variability of their, of their income. Right. We'll come onto this later, later on, but er, it can be shown quite easily, why farm, how farm, why farmers er, behave what you may, from what economic theory would tell you is, is an irrational manner, alright, and it's simply because they're trying to minimize their, their risks. Alright, risk and uncertainty is something that's excluded from most economic models. Okay, so they'll always choose options, farmers will always choose options that are, are less risky. And the best way to do that on a farm is to diversify, and this is why most farms in the U K are mixed farms. Alright. They grow, they grow a proportion of, of er, some of their land is devoted to crops, some of their land is devoted to, to livestock.... So they're all, they're trading off their gains from economies of scale, right, with erm, variability of, of income that may result from sort of, putting all their eggs in one basket, so diversification is the main way in which farmers cope er, with an uncertain environment. Okay. Erm, right.... So we can just, if we have look now at the effect of time... on output to supply diagram, okay, in the short run supply will be very ine inelastic. Alright, but as you move through time, the supply response becomes increasingly more elastic. Right, now let's just say, P one... P two, right, prices change from P one to P two in the short run, the change in quantities can be very small. But, due to the factors that we've mentioned, alright, the supply will ex will expand progressively over time, right, so our long run supply curve... alright, will become a lot more elastic than the short run supply curve, right, so if you think of our elasticity formula, I over changing quantity over changing price, times price over quantity, right, as we go through time... our original, our original prices and quantities are going to stay the same, right, P one, Q one, that's not going to change through time, right. If this price change is maintained, and delta P is going to stay the same, right, the only that thing that changes is the level of output, right, which is in the numerator. And as a result, long run elasticities alright, are always greater than short run supply elasticities. The only thing that's changing is, er, farmers' response to a, to a price change. Right,... erm... I think in actual fact, we'll er, we'll leave things, we'll leave things there. I won't bother starting, starting this. Right. Sorry.... Oh, er, that was probably something, hang on, er, probably structure of industry or something erm... oh, N, that gives N, number of, number of firms supplying the market, you know, perfect competition in the [speaker002:] Have you got that one? Yes, what, I'm sorry, have you got some time on tomorrow? Is there by any chance, any tea or coffee?

[Tim:] Testing, testing. Okay right, so what we've been looking at this week is trade in agricultural commodities, and er, possibly a little bit of GATT as well. And I believe Bob has asked you to er, I think, collect some data erm, on trade in wheat and cotton erm, as an example. We'll come on to that a bit later on. But can you just give me, sort of, a brief overview of what's happened to the composition of world trade right, say over the last hundred years or so. What have been the main features? [speaker002:] Well the er, proportion agricultural trade has decreased. [Tim:] Right, correct, okay, erm what absolute, the absolute values of trade. So the relative share of agricultural trade has declined, the relative share of manufacturing trade has increased. How about in absolute terms? [speaker002:] It's increased. [Tim:] Yes, that's right. All trade has increased. Why, why has trade in all commodities, agricultural or non-agricultural increased? [speaker002:] Better transport links. [Tim:] Okay, how does that affect trade? [speaker002:] Well it's easier to transport things overseas or wherever. Also storage is easier, improving [Tim:] Right, super, anything else? [speaker002:] Population growth. [Tim:] Yes, populations have, have increased. [speaker002:] Technology. [Tim:] Yep, I mean that might in a sense [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes, we're gonna get [LAUGHTER] [Tim:] Transport technology has er, certainly er, certainly improved. Right, okay, so, in ge in general, we can say that world trade has risen over time due to essentially, well, is that, is there anything else that? [speaker002:] more countries have er, a big surplus, and more countries having a big deficit in food supply [Tim:] Yes [speaker002:] so therefore [Tim:] so that says something about specialization of production possibly, that countries are now more highly specialized than they once were. Yep, I mean, that in a way is a function of, leagues with which international trade can be conducted. You know, if you, if international trade is very difficult as it was, say two hundred years ago, then you've got to be self sufficient. Whereas, erm, you can now exploit individual countries comparative advantage of this trade erm, is, is rel is relatively er, is relatively easy. Are there any other factors, that might have increased, for an incre might have led to an increase in world trade? Rising population, improving transport and technologies. [speaker002:] I know this might sound obscure, but erm, I read somewhere when that erm, if you actually bring in protectionism, it sounds like it could actually increase trade. [Tim:] If you bring in protectionism? [speaker002:] Don't know how it worked, as in [Tim:] As of, liberalize, or if you increase [speaker002:] No, if you actually, you know, if you have a little protectionism, it does actually lead to an increase in trade, but I don't know how that works. [Tim:] Neither do I. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No it doesn't, you know it doesn't. I really didn't expect [Tim:] Right, okay, let's say that's a new one on me. Okay. Well, we'll come onto protectionism in er, in a minute. What other factors, there's a big, this fact that we're missing, alright, rising population, improvements in transport and technology, what else has happened over the last hundred years? [speaker003:] Increased consumption. [Tim:] Yes, that's right, or right [speaker002:] Income. [Tim:] Yes, income, that's right, incomes have risen, er, and as a result we're consuming more goods, consuming more goods... it, it followed, well not automatically, but there's a likelihood that trade will also, will also rise. Okay, so, that's, they're the reasons to account for the rise in absolute values of er, trade in all commodities, what about erm, why has the er, trade in manufactures er, increased as a proportion of total trade?... I mean, it's not divorced from the things that we've just been talking about [speaker002:] Well, cos incomes have risen so, there's more consumption [Tim:] Okay. [speaker002:] Specialization as well, er [Tim:] Good... right okay, I mean, what income elasticities of demand for [speaker002:] Higher for manufactured goods, or high relative to agricultural goods [Tim:] Okay, so, because income elasticities of demand are generally high for manufactured goods as the world economy gets richer, it will want to consume proportionately more of those. Right, now, we could all become self sufficient, alright. But why don't we be become more self sufficient? You know, we can produc we could consume a lot more manufactured goods, but that doesn't necessarily mean that trade will rise. It's likely that trade will rise, but it doesn't automatically follow. What's also happened to trade in manufactures? [speaker002:] It's specialized [Tim:] That's right, okay. [speaker002:] to, well, produce constant [Tim:] Yes, that's right, you've got [clears throat] because the, the market for er, any one say manufactured goods, in theory could be a, a world market now because there are relatively cheap methods of transporting this er, this particular good. What's happened is because the potential market has risen, firms have specialized. Alright, and this is why we get, erm, cars are an excellent example of this erm. You know, Toyota, Toyota's plant down the road in Derby, massive investment, erm, a huge production capacity. That makes all the Toyota Corollas, or whatever, not only for the U K, or for Europe, but for all, all, all sales of car throughout, of that particular type of car, throughout the world. You know, and even in erm, Japan, they're importing the, the products that are made, made over in Derby. Why're they doing that? It's because manufacturing production erm, or this great scope in manufacturing production for economies of scale. Alright, this is why countries have specialized more, because countries specialize more and consumers want to demand, [clears throat] want to consume erm, higher quantities of er, manufactured goods. Alright. Trade automatically follows therefore. Right, we need the specialization and er, the sort of demand elasticity erm, in that argument to suggest that world tra to explain why world trade has risen. What else, before we come on to agricultural products, [clears throat] what, are there any other notable features of trade in manufactures? Alright, it has risen, right, risen very dramatically erm... well, let's try and rephrase this, erm, what's another major reason for the growth of manufacturing trade?... Manufacturing trade is, seems to have grown very rapidly, not only because we're producing erm, or con consuming more of a, a particular commodity, but also because consumers like [speaker002:] Opportunities in taste. [Tim:] Changes in taste, yes consumers like [speaker002:] Consumers like to have variety. [Tim:] yes, consumers want more, more variety, as well as just more, more consumption, and this is why, you know, although we produce cars just about in, in the U K, we still import a lot of cars to the U K. What's that, what's the process of erm, simultaneous import and export of the same commodity, what's that called? [speaker002:] Erm, intra, intra-industry trade. [Tim:] Yes, intra-industry trade. And that's the simultaneous import and export of essentially similar products. Alright, now, they're not exactly the same products, but they are very similar. You know, erm, as far as the statistics might go, you know, a car is a car is a car. So you lump them all together, but we know as consumers, that, the Skoda is inherently different to the Lamborghini or something, alright. [phone rings] Excuse me. [phonecall starts] Hello, Tim speaking. Hello Marina. Very well thanks, and yourself?... Right... Mhm... essentially yeah, use it as a, erm, as a motivation for the, for the tutorial erm,partic particularly the, the first part of it, talking about GATT, sort of erm, the er, sort of characteristics of trade, how it's changed, indication of protectionism.... No, no they don't.... Well, yes it should, it should be, and there's some good figures in there that you may want to tell the students about, and then what I would do is recommend that they have a look at it because the current issue. That came out of the Current Issues in Agricultural Economics book. Alright, if you tell them erm, that's where it came from, there are copies in the library, it might be a good idea that they have a look at it. Alright?... That's it, that's o that's okay, I don't think there's anything else, okay, yes, okay, cheerio, then Marina, bye [phonecall ends]. Right, [clears throat] erm, yes, so,inder intra-industry trade is growing very, very rapidly... and that, and this is, sort of the main, one of the main reasons why trade in manufactures has grown rapidly, rapidly. Why's intra-indu intra, intra-industry trade grown? Well, as consumers, we like to er, consume differentiated products, right. Manufactured goods are easily differentiated, right, you've only got to bung power steering on a car, or a few go, go faster stripes and you have you know, sort of, to the consumer, a different product. Right, although it is still a car, it's, it has different attributes. Alright, so there's plenty of scope for differentiation, product differentiation. And also, erm, there's great scope for economies of scale er, in manufactured goods, therefore consumers can benefit, right from er, exploiting the comparative advantage in particular, in particular countries. Production tends to be [clears throat] focused on very large plants, erm, and each plant will produce erm, a particular good for the whole world market and so therefore trade must, must increase. So, perhaps those explanations might account for declining er, relative share in agriculture as well as the increasing share of manufactured goods, because the other side of that coin is, well, income elasticities of demand for agricultural goods is less than unity [clears throat] so there's a de declining sector aspect there, erm, is it easy to differentiate agricultural products? [speaker002:] Very difficult. [Tim:] Right, it's not impossible because what tends to happen is that you can erm, you can change the product mix of what the consumer receives. Instead of him just buying purely the raw commodity, you can er, change the, the degree of processing erm, the quality of, of the product, erm, so there is some scope for different product differentiation, but certainly not the same scope that there is in manufactures. [speaker002:] Do you think the scope has increased because of erm, packaging or whatever? [Tim:] Mm, I mean that's, it's, you know, a potato is a potato is a potato, in, you know in commodity terms, but you know, you can change the way the, the product by attaching lots of services to that raw food product, and that's where the scope for differentiation comes from, it's the, the combination of attributes in er, agricultural goods so you've T V dinners and all the rest of it. Erm, how about economies of scale, you said that was important the increase in manufacturing trade, you know, implies that products will be produced at a lower unit value, and therefore benefit consumers and er, therefore increase his trade cos consumers will buy the cheapest product if that comes from abroad, so be it. So what about economies of scale in agriculture? Do you think there are economies of scale to the same extent? [speaker002:] No. [Tim:] Why, why not? [speaker003:] It's more perfectly competitive, isn't it, I mean it's produced say, the scope for it is less because it's on a smaller scale in general. [Tim:] Mm, that's right, I mean the fact that agriculture tends to be perfectly com right, why there tends to be a lot of independent small producers is because there are no economies of scale, you know, apart from beyond, you know, a certain size of farm, you know,stud studies in the U K show that once you get, get beyond about two thousand hectares there are, there are significant dis-economies of scale, and although there are economies of scale up to that point, and that's only in the case of very specialist types of production, by and large once you've got a farm in excess of five hundred hectares, erm, you start to run into dis-economy, and mostly managerial dis-economies of scale. [clears throat] That's not the same er, well that's not the case with erm, with things like car man car manufacturing. I mean we can... Toyota can produce, you know, sufficient Corollas or whatever it is that they make at Derby erm, to sat to satisfy the whole of the world market for that particular car, just from one plant. And that one plant occupies about [clears throat] sort of, one hundred and fifty hectares or something like that. If you wanted to erm, er, satisfy the demand for a particular food commodity you'd need erm, an area equivalent to... the six biggest states in America. Clearly, [clears throat] that's not feasible. There's a geographical dimension involved in agricultural production, that leads to dis-economies of scale. Alright, and er, essentially land is the constraining, the constraining factor. Right, because we need land to produce food, more so than we need land to produce cars or tape recorders or whatever... that sort of militates against economies of scale, and that's why we have erm, a large number of relatively small producers in this country and throughout the world. Erm, it's because you need land, and er, the bigger the area of land you've got, the more time it takes to get your combine harvester from one side to the other er, and so on and so forth. So, the optimal size of plant in agriculture is very, very small compared to the optimal size of plant in manufacturing.... Okay, and that could be another reason why international trade, erm, has, had declined relatively in agriculture. Now... anything else that may have accounted for the erm, decline of agricultural trade, and the increase in manufacturing trade? [speaker003:] Because of erm, protection policies, [Tim:] Mm [speaker003:] Like erm, the C A P in France. [Tim:] That's right, I mean protectionism in agricultural goods has risen, particularly since er, in the last fifty years. Risen dramatically, whereas in the same period, protectionism on manufactured goods has generally er, fallen, alright. So protectionism is probably quite important erm, reason. Why, why erm, does protectionism reduce trade? [speaker002:] Reduces the erm, extra erm, revenue you can get from exporting or, or it intro increases the cost of importing [Tim:] Okay, yes, that's, that's one reason, yes. [speaker002:] Reduced through retaliation. [Tim:] Okay, yes, leads to retaliation, anything else?... [speaker002:] Leads to loss of market. [Tim:] Mm, yes, leads to loss of market, you know. If we're self sufficient due to a policy that subsidizes our farmers, we're not going to want to import anything.... So those are all reasons why [clears throat] trade in agricultural goods may have fallen, is protectionism in ari agriculture is second to none. There's no industry that's erm, as heavily protected as er, as agriculture on a world scale. Okay, so what, so what other effects does protectionism have? It reduces er, trade in agricultural goods, anything else? [speaker002:] What about prices of agricultural goods. They go up. [Tim:] Sorry, sorry what?... Prices of, on the world market. Right they'd certainly go up in the domestic [speaker002:] Yes [Tim:] erm, domestic country, or the country where the protectionism is in place. [speaker002:] Well, that must reduce trade as well, cos if, if prices are high in the domestic market, they're not going to want to sell them in another market are they? [Tim:] No, yes, that's very, very true, and that's the effect of protectionism, is to increase self sufficiency. Alright, however, if you want to sell. Yes, it increases self sufficiency, what about the prices of agricultural goods on the world market? The size of the world market in agricultural erm, goods and the volatility of prices on the world market? [speaker003:] Aren't agricultural prices subsidized twice, they're subsidized to the farmers, so the farmer gets X for growing it which increases the price automatically on the market, but aren't they subsidized so they can be sold abroad? [Tim:] Yes, that's, that's true. So that's [clears throat] well, before we can go in, launch into this, I mean it's often said that erm, er, well, one of the major reasons why agricultural commodity trade hasn't been included in GATT, like virtually every other er, product has been, is because governments are saying, look this is a domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, we're supporting our farmers, it's a domestic policy. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with trade. Now, clearly that's a very naive way of looking at er, protectionism. But that's the main argument why agricultural policies have been allowed to increase in their severity, rather than erm, fall. [speaker002:] That makes no sense, because they're selling that product abroad, the farm product, many of them are. [Tim:] They might be, they might be, yes. [speaker002:] If they are selling it abroad, it's international though. [Tim:] Mm, ah yes, you can't, any domestic policy has international ramifications, if it affects er, resource allocation and, and demand and agricultural protectionism, like any protectionism will, will er, will reallocate resources, not according to comparative advantage, but according to some erm, some priority, we want to support our agriculture, therefore we'll erm, give agricultural producers a lot of money. Now, clearly that's going to dis distort trade because, if we're increasing domestic production [door knock]... Come in, ah, hi Mervin. [speaker002:] Sorry, you alright for tomorrow? [Tim:] Yes, I can go to the lecture, but I'm teaching at eleven like yourself. I'll er, I'll see you if Win's free at, at eleven. [speaker002:] Yes, yes, I've been to se I've a couple of people up to sort of promise a hand [Tim:] Yes, is, is, is Tony, is Tony er, busy as well? [speaker002:] Tony's got a le meeting at ten thirty. [Tim:] Ah, which won't finish [speaker002:] Fortunately I wasn't expecting to be lecturing, but er, [Tim:] Right [speaker002:] I've had to lecture for Paul [Tim:] right, well we'll sort, we'll sort something out, but I'll see if Winnie's, I'll see if Winnie's available. [speaker002:] Yes, yes, I'm sorry about that, yes, yes, okay. [Tim:] I mean if the worst comes to the worst, we'll sort of, cancel a lecture, or something [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Ah, well, it's only a matter of giving them a cup of coffee afterwards. [Tim:] Right, okay, I'm sure we can go, we can look after, we can get Robert in or something [speaker002:] Yes, that's right we just get, just grab a couple of people. Sorry to disrupt your class. [Tim:] That's okay, I'll, I'll sort it out anyway, later this afternoon, yes, yes that's right, yes that's it [speaker002:] Okay, ten o'clock, eight thirty nine. Do you want me to introduce us? [Tim:] Yes, if, if you want to, just to let the students know [speaker002:] Sure, yes [Tim:] who he is, and why he's there. That's, that's grand, thanks, Melvin, cheers. [speaker002:] yes, yes, okay, thanks for everything.... [Tim:] Erm, right, where was I?... Yes, so domestic policies, you know, can not be viewed at in isolation, right. All domestic policies will have international implications okay, and it's something that er, governments tend to erm, sort of over overlook when they're arguing the agriculturalists case in, in GATT. [speaker002:] Then don't you think given that case, we should set up a whole inter international thing, which oversees all the governments? [Tim:] Well that's what GATT is really. That's what, you know, that's why agriculture is trying to be, sort of er, subsumed within the GATT. [speaker002:] Yes, but it's failed. [Tim:] Well, it's, it's failed at the moment, but as, you know, if you've seen on television, or read a paper lately, you know, you've got ten days to go before erm, you know, if we're going to get a GATT agreement, you've got ten days to, to negotiate it in. [speaker002:] Ten days to [Tim:] Er, yes, yes, that's right. There's a lot of brinkmanship going on at the moment, a lot of er, horse-trading I dare say, going on as well. Erm, but er, okay. Erm... er, okey-doke, domestic policies will affect world, world market. It's likely, will world market prices fall? Or rise as a result of protectionism? [speaker002:] Rise. [Tim:] Why might, why might they rise? [speaker002:] Because they cost more. [Tim:] What costs more? [speaker002:] Erm... panic [LAUGHTER] It may not do [Tim:] You know what tends to happen, is that world prices fall, alright, in the presence of protectionism. Alright, because what you're doing, is that you're increasing domestic production. Right now it serves its purpose, and increasing domestic production is going to increase world production, if there's more supply, prices will fall, if everything else stays the same. So what tends to happen is that world, world agricultural prices fall, right, and that trend has been observed erm, er, it's an im empiric empirically, agricultural product prices tend to have fallen in general sort of, over the last sort of, eighteen hundred years. Yes. [speaker002:] So that, erm, the fact that you're increasing erm, protection, protectionism against it, isn't it likely to upset the producers who are exporting it, and who say it's no point exporting it there cos we're going to get erm, huge thing put on our things and we're not going to sell that much, it might be better just sell in our own country, isn't that reduce world tr [Tim:] No, no eventually, protectionism will, will lead to a cessation of production in the most efficient er regions of the world which by and large, are the, are the regions that sell onto the world market. It's only the inefficient producers that support their agricultures, because it's those inefficient producers that need support, erm, so, in the, in the long run, world supply, world supply will contract, but in the short run, you know, farmers in these er, efficient countries of the world may well erm, continue in production because they may, may be able to cut their average variable costs, it's only when in, in the long run, you know, providing farmers can cover their average variable costs, they'll continue in production in the short run. Right, in the long run, they've got to cover all their costs, right, they will be driven out of business, but that may take some time. Alright, so in, in the short run, because more is being produced, alright, and demand has been increased very much, or in world terms, then market prices will fall. All market prices will fall. And world market prices also tend to fall because these erm... sort of protectionist programmes are often too successful, so not only do we reach self sufficiency, but you reach the status of net exporter. Now, for net exporting, for a net exporter, so our production exceeds our own consumption, how the hell do we er, how the hell do we get rid of it? Do we just burn it? Or do we dump it? What tends to happen is that domestic agricultural production has already been subsidized, alright, it's subsidized again, only to, to be sold on the world market. The world market becomes a residual, a residual market as a result, erm, you know, because we're dumping cheap products, you know, and the, the only way we can sell European grain right is to, is to undercut the world market. Now, because we're a major player in, in grain markets and most other markets, the European Community, increasing its supply on the world market will have a non-trivial effect on price. Prices will come down, right. Erm... that's what we observe, is that protectionism leads to a lowering of world, world prices. What about the volatility? Does protectionism have an affect on volatility do you think?... Right, think of it like this, if, if all countries of the world, right, engage in free trade, there is no protection. Alright. [clears throat] Then, the world market, alright, is, is the, is the world, is the world market. Everybody trades through this, through this world, world market. As a result, if there's a say, bad weather in the northern hemisphere affecting supply, right, that may well be offset by good weather, or average weather in the southern hemisphere, right. As a result, erm, prices won't be quite as volatile as they are in the opposite case, alright, when the world market, and virtually nobody, let's assume that virtually nobody uses the world market to trade in, they've all got their own agricultural policies, right, just a few countries trade in the world market, it only takes erm, a, a sort of poor harvest, or a very good harvest in any one of these erm, er, sort of protected countries, in order to get rid of this output, they'll put it on the world market. Because the world market is very, very tiny now, because nobody uses it, that will have a massive effect on, on world prices. So what you tend to observe is that when protectionism, when everybody protects, or when a lot of people protects, the world market erm, becomes a sink right, for any excess production. Right, it becomes a residual market, right. You know, if you can't sell it at home, you know, you get rid of it on the world market. Now, if the world market is very small, then The term world market is a bit of a misnomer when er, when most countries protect. The world market becomes very, very volatile and er, so protectionism tends to lead to erm, to price volatility and this is one reason why agricultural markets are so volatile. Right, it's, it's because world markets are residual markets because there's so much agricultural protectionism. Okay. Right, [clears throat] erm, why bother, why bother about agricultural trade? Marlon, why're we all het up about, about agricultural protectionism? [speaker002:] What are we going to live on? [Tim:] Sorry? [speaker002:] If we don't live off agricultural trade, what are we going to live on? We have to keep the track all turned on. I mean, vital to life [Tim:] Well... yes, but it only represents two percent of G D P in this country it's, it's insignificant. [speaker002:] Ah, that's the thing, it's not insignificant. Because if you stop agricultural production, you're going to be in big trouble. [Tim:] Right, okay. Why might we, we be in big trouble if it's a problem? [speaker002:] What, what you going to eat? [Tim:] Well, could we not import? [speaker002:] Exactly, and then if the world broke, world war breaks out? [Tim:] Okay, so there, there is this strategic argument. Okay, but why do we get the, the main thrust of erm, to the economic argument seems to be that we ought to be liberalizing, we ought to be facing that erm, that problem. You know, that problem isn't the most important one. Why, why do we want to liberalize world trade? [speaker002:] So we can reduce the prices that we have to pay for everything. You know, beef and things that we have to import from the E C at the moment, we could import from like, New Zealand. It's far away but it's a lot cheaper to produce. [Tim:] Okay, so consumers would benefit erm, from liberalization. Presumably, also tax payers would erm, tax payer cost of er, the Common Agricultural Policies is substantial, and most the support comes from er, most of the support under the Common Agricultural Policy is given er, in terms of higher food prices that consumers pay. There is a different n there is also however, a tax payer burden in that some of our taxes that we pay to go erm, into agricultural support, I mean V A T for example. Virtually all of V A T goes to, you know. You know, you pay V A T on everything, er, so consumers would benefit, alright, in er, protecting countries, tax payers should benefit in protected countries. Any other beneficiaries? [speaker002:] Developing countries may now find a market. [Tim:] That's right, so implications there for developing countries, who are typically very dependent on agricultural exports as a source of export earnings. It's through foreign exchange earnings that they can develop. Right, if you're cutting off their, their lifeline to development, you're probably sowing the seeds of er, of disaster further down the line. It's not only the developing countries that are dependent upon agricultural exports, New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, other what you might not call developing countries, are also erm, reliant upon, is reliant upon agricultural trade. So, who, who are the beneficiaries, are there, are there any beneficiaries at the moment of liberalization? Clearly farmers in protecting countries benefit,any anybody else that benefits? [speaker002:] From protectionism? [Tim:] Mm... say if you're on the world, if you, if you're a net importer, right, erm, and you're buying your food commodities from the world market, you must have been rubbing your hands over the last fifty years cos you're getting, you're buying, you're buying a food commodities will lower, lower prices than you would have done in the presence of free trade, cos there's all this dumping and European surpluses, you know [door knock]... Come in [speaker002:] Yes he is here [Tim:] Win [speaker002:] Yes, erm, Sue's after you, if you going, she wants to know, can you go to lunch in ten minutes? [Tim:] When, [speaker002:] One o'clock [Tim:] No I can't come, I'm dining with er, Charles and a post-grad. So [LAUGHTER] Gerard's his name, erm, remind me to see about, are you free tomorrow at eleven? [speaker002:] Yes, Tony's just dropped that on me [Tim:] Oh [speaker002:] from a great height. [Tim:] No I'll, I'll speak to you, I'll speak to you later. Erm, er, clearly if you're a, a net importer of agriculture, you have benefited from other people's protectionism. Okay, and you will suffer as a result of liberalization, and by and large those costs, or those benefits that er, reaped at the moment by those countries are very, very small in comparison to the, er, the costs of protectionism to the rest of the world. Right okay. Tell you what we'll do is er, leave it there now. I would recommend you do is look in this book, there's a coup a couple of copies of which is, I mean er, is in the library, right. Current Issues in Agricultural Economics er, edited by your lord and master, Professor Rayner and also a chap called David Coleman... okay so, Current Issues in Agricultural Economics by A Rayner and D Coleman. But if you look at chapter four in that book, we have the title, Agricultural Trade and the GATT. Alright, now the first part of this chapter spells out erm, er, developments in agricultural trade, why it's, why it's fallen in relative terms right. It then goes on to look at the costs of protectionism so they're, they're looking at erm, the numerical estimates as to how much erm, protectionism costs, [clears throat] not only for domestic producers and consumers and tax payers, but also for third countries. It then goes on to look at erm, why agriculture hasn't been included in the GATT up until now, and prospects for a solution within the GATT. This er, although it's not on your reading list, erm, the reading list that Bob gave to you, er, it, it should be. It's essential to erm, to what you've been going through in the last, in the last few lectures. Readable, full of erm, empirical evidence about costs of agricultural protection, and what's happened to agricultural prices and I re I do recommend that you have a look at it if you, it's an invaluable... if you look at anything, look at, look at this one article.... And there should be a couple of er, issues of this book in, in the library, okay, right, well thanks very much. Have a very good holiday and er, [phone rings] tomorrow there won't be a normal agri-econ lecture, there'll be a special lecture, but it'll be in the same place, same time. [phonecall starts] Hello, Tim speaking, I was on my way Charles. Okay, I'll see you in a minute. Bye [phonecall ends]. Right, that's it. Right.

[Lloyd:] Testing, testing, testing.... Alright okay. [Nadine:] What did, what did anybody do? Did you do the migration? [Lyn:] No [Lloyd:] I think the mi yes, no one did the migration one apart from the Dean, he did a famine, er essay. Well I think what we'll have a look at is this er,mi migration essay. Erm, what I'll also do, we'll only sort of talk for about twenty five minutes, about the essay, and then we'll look at sh writing short answers er, for the exam, [Nadine:] Erm, sorry, when are we having a tutorial next term? [Lloyd:] Erm, I don't think we will be. [Nadine:] We won't. [Lloyd:] I think this is our last tutorial for this semester [Nadine:] Right. [Lloyd:] for development or integrational trade. You may well have an ex erm, [Nadine:] One with another one. [Lloyd:] a tutorial with you know, somebody else for health or banking or you know, whatever. [Lyn:] Yes, cos if you think about it, we've had two banking, we've had two everything. [Nadine:] Two, we haven't had two banking have we? [Lyn:] We've got two of everything or we've got two of everything to come. [Nadine:] We've got two management. So that means that, okay, supposing we have a tutorial, does that mean we haven't got anything next term until the exams start? [Lloyd:] Mhm. [speaker004:] [whispering] [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Some lecturers, perhaps have some lectures, you know for [Lloyd:] You may, you may have lec the lectures are supposed to finish at the end of this term, but if, you know, a lecturer has been ill or hasn't managed to get through the stuff erm, you may have some lectures next term, but er [speaker005:] They said that at, someone from third year last year er, she said that Professor is having an extra lecture you know, telling what's on the exam [LAUGHTER] those things. [Lloyd:] [LAUGHTER] Well, if he tells you, he's er, he's in the min minority []. Er, he may, he may be, you'll have to, to ask him, but generally speaking he does have er Yes, yes. [Nadine:] You'd think he'd er, target to finish early this term. [Lyn:] Yes, well, we'll just ask you to lecture us [Lloyd:] Yes, yes, that's right, I mean he should, you know, the lecturer should say this is the last lecture of term. The last lecture of the semester. Now, what they try and do is finish at the end of this term, so you've got from now on until, mid- January to, to revise erm, but you may have [Lyn:] Or if you do [Lloyd:] you may, you may, you may have the er, er, you may have some lectures, and possibly some tutorials next term, although I doubt it. It just depends on how behind people are. Okay. Erm, so the title of er, this migration essay, is something I, what are the factors, erm, so in your opinion, no, not the right one, [Lyn:] I've got it here [Lloyd:] Can somebody, can someone [Lyn:] what factors influence rural urb urban migration decisions in L D Cs, and how can they effect the level of unemployment? [Lloyd:] Ah, right, okay, so what factors influence rural urban migration, er, in L D Cs and how can these affect the level of urban unemployment? Okay. So, what factors do influence migration in developing countries?... We took, categorize into economic and non-economic? It does seem a sensible way to approach things, possibly. What er, what sort of factors are important? [Lyn:] , differences of income. [speaker006:] Differences of income. [Lloyd:] Okay, income differentials, yes, so presumably the larger the differential between urban and rural wages, the er, the more, or the greater the incentive. [Lyn:] Education. [Lloyd:] Why, why education, I mean [Lyn:] Because, erm, the greater the education, er, supposedly increases your chance of getting a job, opens up more opportunities up for you, so erm, you know, if there's only a certain number of jobs, the one with the most education is more likely to get it. [Lloyd:] Okay. [Lyn:] Erm, and all [Lloyd:] Wait, wait a second, can we leave education. What about you know, if, if someone is relatively well educated, and they come from an urban, urban rural area, why don't they get a job in the rural area using those qualifications? [Nadine:] Cos there isn't any. [Lloyd:] Right okay, that's the er, that's the er long and short of it, by and large, there, there isn't erm, employment, er, there are very few erm, administrative type, type jobs. [Lyn:] Also to add to that is that erm, we know that a great of, basically agriculture's sort of under-employed, there's a lot of under-employment in agriculture. And erm, so, the, there's more opportunity to actually improve your situation by being in an urban area, erm, by migrating even internationally to improve your situation. Basically people are maximizing their situations in agriculture. They're born into maximum situations. [Lloyd:] Right so they're [Lyn:] In the majority of cases, I would say there's probably a few there. [Lloyd:] okay, so the, there, what you're saying is that the, the rural wage is a sub a subsistence wage, which is im by definition, sort the minimum wage you require to live on and er, there are possibilities of much higher incomes else elsewhere, so the, [clears throat] the subsistence wage itself may well act as quite er, strong sort of push factor out of the rural areas, let alone erm, high wages in er, er, the urban areas. [Lyn:] Cost of migration. [Lloyd:] Okay, what's, what do you mean by that? [Lyn:] Well, erm, there is a cost involved in moving from, physically moving from one to the other, and also when you have to weigh up er, costs of moving your family or the risks involved and things like that, so that's all involved in that. Erm, and for some people, well for the whole of the rural economy, it's harder to, or they're in a, a lesser income situation, and it's also availability of credit, or access to funds is much, you know, people have less savings, and so forth, because they don't save. They employ it, and put it back into the land, if they do make anything. [Lloyd:] Okay. [Lyn:] So, so, you know, for a lot of, I wouldn't say a lot, but there is a, a group in the population that are basically concerned with just surviving in agriculture, and wouldn't even consider, even if they are, say have got a high IQ or something, they just physically can't migrate because of the cost. [Lloyd:] Okay, yes, that's fine. True. Did, anything else?... Do they automatically get jobs if they move? [Nadine:] Nope. [Lloyd:] Okay, so the probability of getting a job is going to be quite important. [Lyn:] Erm, the amount of information available determines, on the probability of thereby you can reverse it round, and say the amount of unemployment. So like we know, we can, we see on television, the rates of unemployment say in France and Germany, and so forth, so that influences our decision to up say to Liverpool or Edinburgh somewhere, and influences our decision to migrate. Now, it's a bit different, because normally we apply to a job in Glasgow, we might get it or we might not, but, you look at, we've got more of, of information, but, in less developed countries, that information is, even if it were collected, sometimes it's not even collected, erm, it's not widely available, so people's perceptions or hearsay from people who've gone before, is the information, and that's often erm, wrong. And even if it was close to being right, say the unemployment is say, twenty percent, it doesn't account for like under-employment in the, in the informal sector and things like that [Lloyd:] So is, is lack of information, or lack of relevant information, is that why we get this apparent paradox of erm, people migrating from rural to urban areas, despite there is in actual fact, twenty or thirty percent unemployment in the urban areas, and the migrants have very little chance of ever getting a job? Is that... is that a reason? [Lyn:] Yes. [Lloyd:] Yes, does that carry much weight do you think? [Lyn:] Don't know. [Lloyd:] Well there's one school of thought, says yes, that is why we get this apparent paradox of people migrating, right, when we actually have very high unemployment. You know, what are you migrating for? Well it's to get a job, to improve your living standards. Alright, and perhaps the reason why people are migrating when there is very high unemployment is because they don't realize that there is such high unemployment. [clears throat] But that sort of view has been, has been challenged in more, in more recent years with empirical studies saying erm, er, sort of rural labour forces is quite likely to migrate, or some parts of the rural labour force are quite likely to migrate right, and it is rational to migrate, even in the presence of very high unemployment. [Lyn:] But, the, what are they measuring? How is unemployment measured, they're measuring it in the formal sector, and you can actually live by being employed in the informal sector, which is often not recorded. [Lloyd:] Okay. [Lyn:] So, so, I believe it's alright to say well people will migrate in the presence of, it's rational for a person to migrate in the presence of, of high unemployment if high unemployment only refers to the formal sector, but it's not rational if it implies that it refers to informal and formal. [Lloyd:] Well could it be, well, it still could be? [Nadine:] Can I just ask a question? [Lloyd:] Mm. [Nadine:] Right, you said that the reason is, there's lack of information so, that's why people migrate, because they don't realize they're not going to get a job. And the counter-arguments to this is that there isn't lack of information, people know they're not going to get a job, but they're still better off to move, so that's a rubbish theory. Is that what you're saying? [Lloyd:] Mm, that's right, I mean that's what, sort of people like Harrison sort of were saying, is that, it, it's still rational to move, even in the presence of very high, very high unemployment. Okay. [speaker004:] Why? [Lloyd:] Why, why is that the case, well, tell me, why might people, why might you move to a, if you were a rural labourer, why might you move to erm, to an urban area where you knew there were some jobs? [Nadine:] Because they're most likely to get social support if anybody's going get anything. [Lloyd:] How, how do you mean Nadine? [Nadine:] Well if, if they start introducing measures to help the people out who are, if you're in an urban area like in a slum, they're more likely to help those people first. Be it [Lloyd:] I don't, I don't know [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Lyn:] be it, the expected [Lloyd:] interesting theory. [Lyn:] is about the expected wage, and he says that people erm, base their decision, a rational mind would base his decision on erm, probability of getting a job times the erm, urban wage rate, equals the expected rate, wage rate, and he's saying that, because urban wage rates are so much higher, erm, that unemployment rate can also be quite high, and the expected gains can still be positive. [Lloyd:] Mm, that's right, because what's, what are Harrison's doing? They're summing expected income over all future periods [Lyn:] They're, yes, they're, they're making a present value of [Lloyd:] Mm, so they're, you're doing a present value expression. So although erm, current rates of unemployment are very high, you may be prepared to erm, to, to accept unemployment in the short term, you know, because a year down the line, you may well be able to get employment. You know, if, particularly so, if you're only on a subsistence wage in the first place. You know, if not, you know, if you're very, very poor in a, in a rural area, you may think, well look, there's, there's this chance, no matter how, how slim of me getting a, sort of proper job in the urban area, thus you may well take that chance. You could, you may, what you may feel confident in er, your employment prospects, you know, if you're the, the most able in the village or, you know, in your little sort of, social environment [Lyn:] Tribe. [Lloyd:] [LAUGHTER] Tribe, or whatever []. You know, you may, you may be the best, and therefore think, think you have a, or have a high opinion of yourself, and therefore try your luck, you know, if somebody must be getting those jobs it could be me. Erm, rather than, so people may, may make rational decisions and this is what Harrison were taking about is that, erm, it still may be rational to move, even though there's very high unemployment, alright, simply because people [clears throat] may accept a period of erm, of unemployment if it means that they, in the long run, obtain a, a relatively high paid job. Erm, we can do a little design round here. Time on this axis, and wages rates, rural wage or against urban wages. Now this is saying that... that's the wage rate in er... in a rural centre. So if we just add up over sort of the time horizon of this person, this person's life, right, his expected wage in agriculture, right, it's going to be this, this, this area here. Alright, [clears throat] if erm, if we now... so this is going to be his sort of, his opportunity cost right, his wage rate in the rural sense is going to, to opportunity cost, and the sum of the opportunity cost over time right, is going to be the present, you know if we discount that by some er, if we turn it into a present, a present value, right, the present value of that sum there, right, will determine life times income in agriculture. Right if we... oh, ah right, let's not discount it, right, now let's just explain this again. This is the wage rate in agriculture, right, now if we discount, sorry I've made a cock-up of this, that's erm, that's not discounted, right, if we discounted, it's going to look [Nadine:] Why just discount it and then? [Lloyd:] Well it's just that, you know, a pound, or a hundred pounds today, is not the same as a hundred pounds in a year's time, or two, two years' time.... Right. [speaker004:] So that would be opportunity cost? [Lloyd:] That's right, yes, that's right, so, in actual fact, this area here, right, is going to be the discounted sum of all future rural incomes. Alright, now if we look at the, the rural instead of the urban wage rate, right, up here... alright, now let's just say that it takes that amount of time before this individual gets a job in the urban area, alright, now if we discount... alright the erm, the rural, the urban wages right, that's... all this [Nadine:] Why have you just discounted it to there? [Lloyd:] Sorry? [Nadine:] Why have you discounted it to W R? [Lloyd:] Well it's, well, er, there's no need why that should be the case, it could be, you know, it could look something like that. But, up in the, there the migrant's decision making process will be, is this area here... right, is that area there, greater... than that area there. Alright, so this is the discounted sum in er, in non-agriculture, in the urban area, and this is the value, the discounted sum in agriculture. Now, clearly on the, on the way I've drawn this diagram it is. Right, but that's going to depend on right, not only the wage differential, now if the wage differential is very large it's likely that this discounted sum is going to, you know, be larger than that. But it also depends on the time it takes to get the job. I mean if we got a job somewhere out here... then it clearly wouldn't be.... So it's this, it's the time taken to get this erm, er, to get the job's going to be important. Now if we think of W U as being er, the expected value of the urban wage, and that equals the probability of getting a job, multiplied by the actual urban wages, alright then this probability of getting a job is going to be important as well. And that's it then, scruffy diagram, but what more have we got? An urban wage, a rural wage, right, we discount those wages over time, right and that area there, shading the area in the blue sort of box, then this it's erm, it's going to be rational for this er, migrant, this person to become a migrant. Even though, I mean this doesn't say anything about unemployment levels, levels of unemployment. Unem the level of unemployment is subsumed between, well, within the time it takes to get a job, and also the probability of, of getting a job. Alright. So this sort of, even that's just what the Harrison model erm, tells us, right, so that's, unemployment rates are, are virtually erm, unimportant in the migrant's decision. Unemployment rates now, it's because they may well be, if they're acting rationally, discount over a very large, long period of time. Okay... just er, just to ask, is this erm, migration, it, does it cause a problem? I mean I thought that migration was the er, would be the cure of all ills, in that, you know, we've got wage differentials here in this, in this hypothetical economy. Surely if you migrate that increases the supply of labour, it reduces the supply of labour in the rural sector, it increases the supply of labour in er, the urban sector, unless wage, wage rates should equalize? [speaker004:] No. [Lloyd:] What, what, why don't, why doesn't, why don't wage rates equalize? [Lyn:] Because erm, the urban sector is normally considered to be capital intensive a sector, and the rural area in L D Cs are considered more labour intensive, and so erm, obviously when you get an influx of labour, and changes to the capital to labour ratio [Lloyd:] Mhm [Lyn:] erm, and you would see er, a shift in capital to, to agriculture as the return on capital in urban falls, [Lloyd:] mhm [Lyn:] and this would, you would think, because there's a shift back of capital to agriculture you'd get a rise in agricultural wage rates because that changes the capital to labour ratio again [LAUGHTER] and so this would counteract the movement. However, there is a problem, capital is not perfectly mobile, like you can apply a new machine into, well maybe you could cos that's. Whatever, you can't apply the urban type of capital back onto the land, so it's okay to say this would work if capital was completely and perfectly mobile, but it isn't so, you don't get that and you don't get balanced growth of that. Because er, everything shifts in the wrong direction. [Lloyd:] That's right, I mean, in order to eq equalize wages between sector, labour and also capital has to be perfectly mobile. Now, if it's not, we know that labour isn't, isn't perfectly mobile, it appeared, migration would seem to suggest it's, it's pretty mobile geographically, but it may not be particularly mobile occupationally. So that these people go to the urban areas to get the jobs, they're not trained erm, for these jobs right [clears throat] and as a result, these wages rates still, may still be maintained despite the fact there are lots of people who are quite happy to take wages erm, in, take up jobs in the urban sectors, it's the fact that sort of, employers don't want them, because they don't have the requisite skills. Also, where, what are the erm, what're the highest paid jobs in the urban sector? They are essentially in developing countries. They are essentially government jobs. Right. Now, er, without wishing to generalize too much, bribery, corruption, you know, it's not what you know, it's who you know, are very important factors in er, in employment in developing countries. And as a result they are [Lyn:] It's much nicer to say patronage, you promise to say patronage. [Lloyd:] Ah, patronage, okay, that's er, a nice euphemism to see the [Lyn:] Then you don't like slander people. [Lloyd:] [LAUGHTER] That's right, in that erm, you're, the probability of you getting a well paid job is greatly enhanced, if not guaranteed if you know er, the people who are employing you. And this sort of thing goes, is, is rife in developing countries. I mean the old boy network is pretty bad in this country, but er, it's similar sorts of things go on in developing countries, and because there's much less of an industrial sector there, the government sector itself, erm, plays a very important role in, in employment. Now, was it you Lyn who had some statistics some saying er, what proportion [Lyn:] Fine... I've got, [LAUGHTER] I've got to use stat statistics to [] [Lloyd:] Well it works, erm, there were some [Nadine:] Yes. [Lloyd:] I can't remember if it was you or somebody else, had er, some data as to how many of the er, jobs in urban areas where the government [Lyn:] I put erm, studies by Helen and Tate, nineteen eighty three, found public sector employment averaged forty four percent of non-agricultural employment in twenty L D Cs and in extreme cases were Tanzania and Zambia, were as high as seventy eight and eighty one percent respectively. And I think he quote those, or they didn't quote them in much, as much detail as I did in the lectures. I'd got these figures down, but I hadn't really got anything against them, he just quickly went through the percentages so yes. [Lloyd:] Okay, so [Lyn:] And developed countries averaged twenty four percent, so it's twice as much as developed countries. [Lloyd:] Right, so given sort of erm, public and semi-public institutions, right, represent a large proportion of the non- agricultural erm, employment opportunities, and as a result, alright, the rates of pay in the, in the civil service, essentially, are going to, going to determine erm, the urban, the urban wage rate. Now if those, erm, wages in the civil service are set, not through sort of market process, but sort of through institutional er, constraints, you know, it's unlikely there's going to be sort of er, union power erm, in these sorts of jobs, but nevertheless, civil servants tend to do quite well at giving themselves pay increases [Lyn:] Conservative government. [Lloyd:] and er, and as a result, you know, institutes, the wages in government bodies tend to be quite high, and because gov government bodies represent such a large proportion of er, non- agricultural employment they, they represent a much more sort of, a much more potent influence than they would do in a, in a developed country where the government sector is much, much smaller.... Erm... okay... what was the importance of implication of er, Harrison model? There was one policy implication. [Lyn:] That, what was it, that erm... people still move. Obviously, we that right, people will still move if unemployment's high, but if you try, if the government tries and gets rid of unem urban unemployment, say people have moved because of it, so there's unemployment there to start with because of the reasons we've discussed earlier, so then the government said okay, well let's get rid of the unemployment that has occurred already, by erm, either, at the same wage rate trying to well yes, the same, they'll keep wage rates the same, but erm, increase, you know, make the public sector bigger or, or do something to create urban jobs, and basically all it will do is, encourage more migrants because they'll see the probability of getting a job will increase so the expected wage will increase so you'll get migration on top of what's already occurring. And, erm, you won't solve anything. [Lloyd:] That's right, so, if you want to try and erm, minimize urban unemployment, right, or it's futile to try and minimize urban unemployment by erm, er, establishing employment er, job creation schemes in urban areas, because that will increase the probability of getting a job if you're a migrant. Right, so there are these government job creation schemes, alright. Now, because it's typically observed in the Harrison model shows this under certain circumstances to be the case, that, erm, a sort of erm, migration elasticity with respect to income differentials, right, is much greater than the erm, [Lyn:] The rate of unemployment, the level of unemployment [Lloyd:] That's right, yes, yes, that's right, because erm, there's a gre there's a higher elasticity of migration inelasticity in respect to income differentials than there is to unemployment, any job creation schemes will lead to more migration, rather than, rather than less, so how, how best to get round the problem? If job creation schemes aren't in urban areas, are the best way to get round them, isn't it, if we can show, quite simply, that job creation schemes lead to more migration, which lead to more unemployment.... The policy's self repeating, what policies might? [speaker006:] A policy of cross-training, for all areas. [Lloyd:] Okay, yeah, so, what might those, what form might those policies take, what might they be? [Lyn:] [LAUGHTER] on it []. [Lloyd:] Yes, population controls, that's right, that's one, I mean, one reason, one way of getting rid of the migration is to, is to, is to limit population growth. Where's the population growth highest? It's at its highest in rural areas, this is what's being done. Erm, population control is always focused out in the rural areas, the most difficult place to do it, because populations are dispersed, er, that's where population growth, right, is the highest. Any other? [Lyn:] Making incentives to actually raise the wage rates in the, in the rural areas so, sort of to, to increase production or, and through, through farming. To improve their situation, [Lloyd:] Right, yeah [Lyn:] improve their wages through farming and perhaps [Lloyd:] That's right, [Lyn:] put more infrastructure in so that then the farmers can send their children to school rather than work on the land. [Lloyd:] yeah, that's right, what we want to try and do is to improve the erm, the returns to, to agriculture which is the main form of er, sort of income in rural areas. I mean if you do things like that while improving infrastructure, erm, setting up credit, government credit facilities, er, so, so, so we can lend, we could lend money to small farms. Increase in information about unem unemployment itself, that is a, that is a problem, people have this misapprehensions about the probability of getting a job [Lyn:] You could also erm, start to recognize the benefit of the rural sector, and one reason why they were discriminating, L D Cs tended to want to ignore that and sort of shun it, because it's not sort of a glamorous image they were trying to hope for in the urban sector, and, so, if they did help them, say give them units, like the repair men, units to work in, and they put them in really totally crappy accommodation, and up not where you need it, and not where people pass by with their motors and things, they, they'd put them somewhere up on a hill, overlooking a city, so erm, to encourage the informal sector by erm, sort of on a par with the formal sector because erm, their inter- reacting, inter-relating now, like they're providing cheap inputs for the formal industries and, and the formal industries are pro providing clientele all for the informal sector, and so it's all inter-linked and, and it's there now. It's not going to disappear, cos it's quite a large part of urban areas. They could do that. [Lloyd:] Yes, we want to try and improve resource allocation in the economy and one way of doing that is not necessarily subsidizing agricultural production, but remove the taxes on agricultural growth. Alright, and effectively what's, what's happening is that the government sectors in erm, in developing countries are very highly subsidized. Right, they're overmanned, alright, they have very high wages, alright, er, that is one of the major courses of er, causes of resource mis-allocation, it's this very large, very inefficient government sector. And er, one way to, to get people to stay on the land is to introduce some sort of, what we might call market disciplines, if that wasn't such a dirty word, er, into the government, the government sector where there are clear inefficiencies.... Okay, right, erm... it's nearly time to go, but before we do, can I just give you some... bits and pieces, you, you may well have copies of last year's exam paper, but if you haven't, this is for development and integration of trade er, have a look at those sorts of essays you're being asked to do. But also, look as those er, those short answers, now it's important that you answer the short answer questions well alright, because it's, it's a lot easier to get good marks on a short answer question, providing you do it well, than it is on a long answer question. Alright, erm, but most people don't, don't ans don't answer short answer questions very well at all, and that's why they get low, low marks for them. Always re bear in mind, that whenever you do a short answer question, right, you've only got fifteen minutes to do it in. Right, there, there isn't a great deal that you can get in, in fifteen minutes. But what, what you must have, right, is a definition of erm, the er, sort of thing that you're asked to write about. I mean, factor price equalization, intra-industry measuring intra-industry trade, optimal intervention, reciprocal dumping, they're all jargon, bits of jargon effect effectively, so you must, you must have a definition. Right now, although the determinals in industrial specialization within countries, alright, now although you can't really define that, you might be able to say something about industrial specialization. You know it's fairly obvious what it is, but with most of these will, will require, require a definition. Right, so you must put a definition, a definition in there. An example of it in use, and you must have ex what I'm saying, it's very important to have empirical erm, examples in your essays, right, because they will also be required in the short answer questions as well. Right, you know, what is an example of erm, reciprocal dumping? Right now you may, erm, don't know anything in particular, but I know that the European Community and the United, United States are always trying to out, erm, beat each other in terms of subsidies on food products, so put, put that in. Reciprocal dumping, erm, you know, one very good example would be agricultural trade between European Community and erm, and America. Alright, if it's a, so you, you've got to have a definition, alright, you must have a, an example of it in, in action. Any form of empirical evidence is useful, alright, erm... sometimes you know, you're asked, you know, what is the effective protection, or define, or write brief a brief essay on effective protection, right you'll, you'll want to say something there about how it's measured. Now what essentially, what you're doing, is that you're writing an essay in very, very condensed form, so it's just, I mean you still, still must have the same recipe in there when you write a short answer, right, but you just have to be very, very brief, so you know,para paragraph on definition, you know, paragraph of examples, right, erm, paragraph on some sort of explanation or erm, how it's, how it's measured erm, has it been a contentious issue erm, what are the problems with this er, with this concept erm, right, you've got to get those sort of things in there, like you would in an essay, if you were asked to write an essay on reciprocal dumping you'd, you'd have all those things in there, right, but you only need to write a sentence, a sentence about them. You know, nobody's expecting three or four sides, right, you've got quarter of an hour, not erm, you know, if, if you can write a side a half you, you'll be doing much better than most people, alright, so you're just thinking about a side really, depending on how big your handwriting is. But you must have, you know, don't ramble on about the same thing, right, cos, for, for, for any more than a couple of sentences, cos then, you know, you c start entering into sort of diminishing marginal returns very, very quickly on these short answer questions, what you want to, do is sort of say a sentence about as much as you can rather than go into in depth discussion about erm, any particular aspect. Alright, so it's a bit of er, a sort of blunderbuss type of approach that you've got, that you've got to use. Get a definition in, get an application in, get empirical evidence in, get measurement problems in erm, get sort of contentious issues type of, or criticisms in erm, don't draw, don't do diagrams as they're probably, the only, the only principal difference between this and an essay, you just haven't got the time, right, so don't be tempted, unless you can do a very quick diagram that sum, sums it up. Alright, I don't recommend doing diagrams cos you spend five, five ten minutes drawing the diagram and explaining you know, what the curves are on it, erm, so you don't really need to draw, draw diagrams in these short answer questions. Again that's only a general principle. Occasionally you might be, but erm, if I can, if you look at er, the erm, the European Community's erm, short answers, right, they've actually given you an except there, a dia diagram, right. Question, question one, question two, alright. It's a pretty complicated diagram, I wouldn't expect you to draw that in fifteen minutes, and explain the, the [Nadine:] If they give you a diagram like that, can you just talk about the lines, you don't have to say what they are? [Lloyd:] No, that's right, yes. [Lyn:] Basically, you could say like with gains or something, gains are A, B, C. [Nadine:] Yes [Lloyd:] That's right, [Lyn:] I reckon that's, that's the way that [Nadine:] it will be assu it will be assumed that, yes [Lyn:] everything on there is known about that, just specific areas. [Lloyd:] Alright, but you know, you've got so little time, you know, fifteen minutes is very, very short period of time, so whatever you say [Lyn:] [LAUGHTER] Not wanting to induce panicking []. [Lloyd:] What I do recommend you do is er, you know, use these short answers in your, in your revision, and sort of, you know, revise on say interim district trade, and then just write a question in fifteen minutes, and you realize that you can't really write very much, and it's good discipline, because once you've made the mistake, you know, of writing, you know, two paragraphs on some aspect of it, you realize you haven't got any time to, to do anything else. You won't, hopefully you won't make that mistake again, so, short, sweet, crisp answers to these erm, these short answer questions. Don't bother doing diagrams, get a sentence in on everything you know, right although it's not Well, that doesn't sound very sophisticated to say, these are the questions when you just write everything you know about a particular issue. [Nadine:] But they are, you do straight out what you can think up about it. [Lloyd:] Yes, that's essentially, essentially it. [Nadine:] Apart from the essays [Lyn:] [LAUGHTER] write anyway for thirty minutes [] [Lloyd:] Not quite the same approach there, but I mean, it's not, not everything you know, but write something about everything you know about [Nadine:] Alright [Lloyd:] the short answers. A, a sentence on everything you can, think of that, that relates to it, but if you do, do practise them, it's only just to, to talk about it, it's difficult to know what you can write in fifteen minutes. Right, I'm here vir virtually throughout the vacation, erm, I'll be here until the beginning of next term, so if you are having problems of any sort, or want me to run through something with you, just er, feel free to disturb me. [speaker004:] Sorry, sorry [Lloyd:] It's alright, so come along and see me, if you have any problems, it's much better you talk it over with me before the problem gets out of hand. Alright, so, come and see me as soon as the problems start to emerge, and I can probably tell you that you're, you're wasting time and energy worrying about it, so [Lyn:] we're going to sit and [Lloyd:] so, er, come and see me before you know, if you are having any problems, just come along. Okay, don't forget to have a few days break over Christmas, don't work all the time, have a jolly good time. See you next year. [speaker004:] Yes, bye

[speaker001:] Get into Microfit, when you're in the data input menu... I'd like you to call up the file Q M four FIT... Q M four FIT file... file. If you just look at the er [clears throat] the sheet, that we've handed out, they loaded from er from the computer it's that data that's in front of you, right, we've got three, three series, right, it's times data, right, from nineteen twenty three to nineteen forty five, right and the three variables are, textile consumption, United States er real, sorry is benevolence of the U S, so it's textile consumption, capita, real income er per capita income to be adjusted through inflation, so constant money terms and what the relative price of textiles P erm the price of textiles relative to the general level er the general price level. Okay what we're going to be doing is estimating a demand function... so we can specify the textile consumption as a function of real incomes per capita and also relative prices, alright. A priori, what sign would we expect on those two variables? Say the income, what sign would you expect to observe?... Yeah positive providing textiles are a normal good, you should observe positive er income consumption response okay. How about prices?... what code, what sign do we expect on the er the price variable there?... Yeah negative, right, textiles rise faster, the price of textiles rises faster than the general price level, the real increase in textile prices, therefore, we'd expect [clears throat] providing the first law of demand holds, that we get a negative response consumption, right. So that's what we expect a priori a positive coefficient, a negative, coefficient, positive on income, negative on prices. What we are actually going to do today is to look [clears throat] using this data, is to look at structural stability, right, we're going to ask ourselves are the parameters that we estimate over the entire sample, are they constant over time. There's no point in estimating a model if in reality those coefficients are not fixed, they're jumping all over the place. Right with those parameters, so if you just look at the er coefficional income, if we estimate the coefficional income to be nought point five right, over the entire sample, the then subsequently find out if that coefficient varies from year to year from minus six plus ten, right, having a one point estimate, right, er oh that coefficient is not going to be particularly useful to us, we want to know er whether our coefficients remain reasonably constant throughout our sample period, particularly if we're using this er equation to make out of sample predictions, right. The first thing we must er be sure of is that the coefficients within the sample are reasonably, er reasonably constant, right. If they are not reasonably constant, then not only is the model er a poor one, right, within sample but it can't really be used for out of sample predictions, because although on average er our coefficient that we estimate it might be nought point five, then the out of sample could well be minus six or something like that. Right, so you need to know that our model is characterized by constant parameters over the sample.... [clears throat] Now the data that we've got here has been artificially generated. the last six observations of it has, right, the first six observations, sorry the er the first twenty odd observations are real, right, that they haven't been made up but the last six observations have been made up, right, to er to illustrate structural change. [clears throat] We will assume that we don't know that there is structural change in this data, although a priori, we might expect it. Why, why might we expect structural change to occur in this example?... Anything in particular? Okay, yeah, that's right, this s this series a particularly volatile period of economic history in the nineteen thirties, the Great Depression, in addition what's at the end of the series? Yeah the Second World War, right, so er I can tell you now that in actual fact there's no structural change during the thirties here but there is structural change during the war. Textile consumption, or the parameters that we estimate during peacetime no longer er explain textile consumption during wartime. Right, I'm going to go through methods of how we can detect structural change by the non constant parameters. [clears throat] The first thing we'll do is look at the data, alright, so if you go from the action menu into option one, right, we're going to plot er go through to the transform edit [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] option, go into the data processing environment, right, where your three variables are listed T C I P. Right, if you just give the command Plot T C Plot space T C then press the return key right, that's textile consumption over our sample. Now it's not immediately obvious from that time series that there's a structural break, right, textile consumption hasn't fallen dramatically, right, or risen dramatically over the post war period, oh sorry du during the er the war period. Nevertheless we can show that there is significant structural change er in the model that we'll [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] estimate. Right, so by looking at the graph, I am just trying to impress upon you that structural change cannot always be spotted simply by looking at the data... right, anyway, let's now [clears throat] move on to estimate our first model. What we are going to be doing is trying to explain that series, right that er consumption series. So if you press the escape key we'll go back to the data processing environment, right. What we're going to do is to log all our variables, right, so if you let L N T C equal open brackets T C close brackets, right, we going to define a new variable L N T C. That's going to be the natural logarithm, right, of our original series T C textile consumption.... If you now plot L N T C... right, if you plot L N T C... you should have a very similar graph to the one that you had before. Alright, logging the data doesn't change the nature of the data, what it does do is that it re-scales the data, okay so the only thing that's, that's, that's changed by logging, right, is the scale of the cr is the vertical scale on the graph, right, but essentially we are still trying to model the same series and N T C is essentially the same series as T C. Okay, so if you press the escape key, once you've had a look at the data, er if you log all the other variables er if you let L N I equal log open brackets I close brackets let L N P equal log open brackets P close brackets, press the return key.... Okay has everyone created those three variables in logs?... Okay, right what we are going to er do now is create a constant, we'll need a constant for our regressions... so if you type the letter Q to come out of the data processing environment... right type the letter Q right and then go into the er constant creation menu, which is option one of the data processing menu... right,... you'll, you'll be asked for a name for if you like call it C or constant or Fred Bloggs, just supply a name... to your constant term.... ... By the way has everybody changed erm the password or their password, have you changed it to your date of birth, have you all done that because if you haven't, you've only got six grace log-ins on erm where your password is your user name. If you don't change [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] your password within six er times of logging in then you will be excluded from the network. So you won't be able to log on to Microfit?...... Right, [clears throat] okay, so has everybody created a constant... right, what we are going to do now is to er estimate the first model right equation one on the sheets that you've been given, alright, you've created a constant, we've got our variables L N T C L N I L N P [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] right so if press the letter Q to quit from the data processing environment and press the return key, head towards the action menu, right, when you are in the action menu, go to option two, which is the estimate option, right, and you should then be given a dialog box. If you then specify your equation, so it's L N T C your dependent variable space, whatever the name you called your constant then L N I space L N P. Now just specify the variables that you want in this regression, right, your dependent variable first... okay when you've specified the equation, sorry... once you specify the equation press the end key which is between the alphabetic and the numeric key pads, that will then submit that request, right. If you then er, it will then ask you over what period do you want to... right so if you press the end key that will submit the job erm it asks for the sample period, we're going to use the whole of the sample, so if you just press the return key, that's the default for the whole of the sample, right, it then asks you what procedure you want to use to estimate the model, we're going to use O L S option one, just press the return key O L S then [clears throat] the computer has estimated the model, right. Before we move on, let's just have a look at those numerical estimates, can we look at the coefficients on income, notice that in this model because we've logged both dependent and the independent variables, right, the coefficients that we estimate are elasticities, right, so we can read those coefficients off directly as elasticities and that's the case for any model in which all the variables are logged... right, in er, if we didn't log the data, in order to calculate the elasticity we have to multiply a coefficient the computer gives us by a erm price quantity ratio, price less, less part of the income constant ratio to obtain the income elasticities. Alright but in any double logged mode, right, the coefficients you estimate are elasticities, so we look at the incoming elasticity, we get a measure, or we get an estimate point six eight, right, that's a positive as we would expect suggesting that er erm textiles are a normal good, right. Notice that an incoming elasticity is less than unity, and that's less than one, as a result... textiles, textile industry in the Netherlands is going to be a declining sector in the economy, right, as incomes er per capita G D P rises, the textile sector will benefit, alright, because, because human demand for textiles either they're demanding proportionately less of any increases in incomes. Right, then so as a result the textiles would be a and relative decline to the rest of the economy. Is that a T ratio on that incoming elasticity? Is that coefficient statistically significant, is it significantly different from zero? Our estimate incoming elasticity, just the T ratio... would you say. T ratio of one point four nine.... Typically we use the rule of thumb to statistical significance so if we have a T ratio that's less than two we can infer that that coefficient to which the T ratio is attached is not significantly zero. In actual fact our incoming elasticity there with er nought point six is statistically significant zero, eighty five percent confidence level. Confidence right the figure in the square brackets next to the T ratio gives you the significance level of the coefficient, right. We normally use the five percent significance level or the ten percent significance level which corresponds er ninety five percent confidence or ninety percent confidence right. So this T ratio on income elasticity is for the bit right and if we were using the five percent or ten percent as our sort of cut off point, we'd actually discard income from our consumption, from our demand function.... Now as economists we should have strong prides about income in this model, we would all, we would expect income to be very important in explaining textile consumption although the model is telling us at the moment, income doesn't seem to be significantly explained in textile consumption so that's something to worry about, we're getting some, er sort of peculiar results here. We now look at the er price unity as a T ratio minus ten, right, so it's highly significant, right and the er figure in square brackets, the probability value next to the T ratio tells you that we get least ninety nine point nine percent confidence coefficiency price elasticity demand significantly different from zero... right, now is everybody happy interpreting the coefficient right and the T ratio? If not say now and we can go through it. It is vitally important that you know... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] how to distinguish a statistically significant coefficient, right, rule of thumb is that the T ratio has to be greater than two with absolute value... right and the figures in square brackets next to the T ratios tell us the exact level of significance, right, er of that coefficient, right, so the incoming elasticity of demand is statistically significant from zero only at the eighty five percent level, a correspondence of fifteen percent significance that incoming the price elasticity demand, highly significant, right, significance level as given by the probabil by the probability er unit in square brackets, the timing level therefore we could be very highly confident about that [clears throat] coefficient okay. So we've got this model, right, we've estimated the model, let's now have a look at the plot of actual and predicted. So if you press the return key... right, we just get a whole list of diagnostic test statistics that we won't look at at the moment, press the return key again, come to the post regression menu, you go into option three which is a list plot option. Now the plot actual and fitted, right, so we try to explain the actual block of textile consumption as the blue line and to do that we are using our model with those fixed estimates, the incoming elasticity and the price elasticity. As you can see there, the model is breaking down during the latter period of our sample. The notice that appears to track the data quite well up until about nineteen thirty, right and then after nineteen thirty it seems to get progressively worse.... Now we may suggest that that's the effect of the Second World War biasing alright biasing the estimates that we've just produced from the whole sample. Now because... I'll leave that for a moment... right, so one way we may test the structural change, right, is to construct what's called a dummy variable and a dummy variables in a wide variety of applications... they can be used to er get rid of er outlying observations, very very high or very very low observations. They can also be used for tests for structural change, right, what we're going to do is to say during peacetime... right, we'll estimate our model, we'll then estimate our model during wartime and we're going to assume that the coefficients or the income and price elasticity mark, don't change during between peace and wartime, all that happens is as they intercept this model shifts, right, now you may thinks that's not particularly er attractive, you might expect the price of income elasticities to change between two periods and we could actually use dummy variables to see whether that is the case, right, however, we'll get very similar results, right, if you just use a slope dummy so it'd intercept dummy, right, and all that's going to do is to say, well the model runs like this in peacetime, right, and then wartime it suddenly shifts up or down depending on the effect of er of the war on textile consumption. Right, so what we're going to do is create a dummy variable to test that hypothesis, right, so if you press the escape key, right, and work your way back towards erm the data processing sort of environment, so go back to the post regression menu through the backtracking menu erm, when you're in the backtracking menu, go to option six, which is the process plot edit option... right, now press the return key in the data processing menu, right, and that will get you to the data processing environment when we can start messing about with our variables. Right, what we are going to do now is create a dummy variable, right, let's call it D one right so if you type D one equals zero and press the return key... what you created there, right, is a new variable called D one and it assumes the value of zero, right, what I want you to do now is to edit this variable, so type edit space D one press the return key... right, if you type on edit space D one you'll then get a sheet that has all the observations for our variable D one. Using the cursor key move down to nineteen, the observation for nineteen forty... right when you've done that type the letter one... and then press the return key, right, and you'll see that the observation is changed, right, from zero to one. Move the cursor to nineteen forty one, right, and then press one again, press return key. Just go through the remainder... of the, of the observations, so that you should have zeros up until nineteen forty and then at nineteen forty through to nineteen forty five, right, you have ones. When you've finished doing that, press the end key. Right the end key will save the edit that you've just made... okay. Right, what we're now going to do is incorporate that dummy variable as the regressor in our model as an explanatory variable, so what's going to happen is that that dummy variable is turned off, alright in the first part of the sample right up until the war that dummy variable's going to be off, right so it has a value of zero, right, then in nineteen forty through to nineteen forty five it's switched on and what it's going to do is to pick up any differential effects, right, in the intercept between wartime and peacetime... right, we'll talk a little bit more, more about that in a second, we're going to add it in as a regressor, right, because it only comes on during the wartime it will pick up any shift in the intercept, right, that occurs due to the war if there is one, of course there may not be but it's quite likely that there, there may well be, so if you type Q to come out of the data processing environment, go back to the action menu and test estimate forecast... okay at the dialog box just add D one to your list of explanatory variables, alright then press the end key, right, yeah we're gonna use the full sample... right, we gonna use O L S, right you have now estimated the model with this dummy variable... now just to see what's happened to those coefficients... the er incoming elasticity was at nought point six is now doubled... right to one point one four... more importantly, right, its T ratio has jumped from one point eight five... right to six point eight, as a result, we now say that the incoming elasticity, the income coefficients, right, the significant zero, it's important to explain the textiles as such... the er, we are now getting a very different estimate for our our estimate for price elasticity is four and one to nought point eight minus one is one point eight, notice though that its ratio has jumped... considerably or has doubled... and the dummy variable itself... is very significant the T ratio ten... the coefficient on that dummy variable tells us the effect of the war on textile consumption, right so on average textile consumption rose by point two... er see what the units of measurement are... we don't actually have [LAUGHTER] units of er ah so we'll... [speaker002:] elasticity whatever it's multiplied by [speaker001:] That's right if you er... so this point two quantifies the effect of the war on our equation, and where is the so the intercept, well what you're saying is in peacetime the intercept is equation three point one seven, however, in war time the intercept shifts up and is now three point one seven plus point two, [speaker002:] You could draw it like that you could say that this is the the war which cuts in this time of year line shifts up, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] so if you wanted it back, you would actually get a new value for the intercept which increases by nought point two three point [speaker001:] Three point one okay so this is where the model, in effect what we've done which is a very crude way, right, of erm incorporating exogamous influences, right, we haven't said tha that the war is going to affect the income or price elasticity what we did do, right, all that we're doing is that we're allowing the intercept of our model to change, right, now as a result, we've got, we can prove the st the statistical significance of all the variables in our model, right, the co the actual coefficients that we've estimated have changed... quite significant, particularly in the er the incoming elasticity, right, the incoming elasticity was less than one, right, and insignificance before was now greater than one and height of R squared has also increased dramatically our measure of explanatory power. Now if you just press the return key a couple of times... right, and have a lot of actual and fitted, if you go into option three in the data post depression menu... you will notice that the fit of our model is very very different... right, so we are now getting a very very good correspondence between actual and fitted, notice that in our original model the thing started to break down at about nineteen thirty, right, just by allowing the intercept to vary, right, over the wartime we've now got a much better fit throughout the whole period... why is that the case? Why are we now getting a much better fit throughout the entire period simply by incorporating the dummy variable to the war period?... Any suggestions?... Well what's happening is it the, during the war, right, we're constraining the computer to estimate, like a single coefficient that is applicable to both war and peacetime er isn't the case, right,th there is a structural change, right, so when th when we constrain the computer to estimate the coefficients throughout the whole period, right, the coefficients are biased but if they don't apply either to the post er pre war peacetime sample neither do they er fit very well to the data during the wartime, right, if we allow the intercept to change but we're getting much better estimates both wartime and peacetime er parameter's okay because we haven't got rid of, we've got rid of that bias, right, in constraining the parameters to fit both wartime and peacetime er time periods. Okay, erm [clears throat] on this sheet, I don't think, well we won't go through it now because we've run out of time. On this sheet, on page two, we've er, we've performed equation two, right, on the sheet and the second page and it says that there's, there are two alternative ways of testing for structural change using dummy variables. One is to include corporate dummy variable of the intercept and see whether it's T ratio or significantly different, is, sorry it's greater than two... right or we can use an F test, right, now that F test that's given me that formula in the middle of the page is a very important [clears throat] test which was developed by a chap called Chow and as a result it become known as the Chow test and it's a, it's a test for parameter constancy, er do we have constant parameters in our model... now it tells you how to compute this Chow test, in this particular case we're only dummying the intercept, the Chow test gives exactly the same results of T tests, right, erm... we won't bother going through it, if you want to go through this er sheet in your own time calculate that, that Chow test and essentially what it involves is splitting with the s the whole sample now into two sub-samples, right, the first sub-sample, right, is peacetime, the second sub-sample wartime, right, and you just compare the residual sum of the squares on the unaccounted for variation, right, between actual and fitted values, just compare the residual sum of squares between these two sub periods, right and if you use the formula that's given there that will come out with exactly the same result, well in actual fact you can square, if you square the F statistic you get calculating one formula you will get T value, got from er the computer right, the er, the sheet goes on to say how we can er use dummy variables in slightly more complicated ways, right, we could see actually see whether the income or price elasticities of demand changed. Right, instead of letting the intercept change we could just let er our elasticities change. Anyway that's preferable because that's actually what's, what's happening, right, the war is likely to affect the elasticities of demand rather than this er bizarre concept intercept erm and the, the sheet on page three tells you how, how to do that... okay. But essentially all these tests do the same thing because they're seeing whether the parameters that we estimate over the entire sample are robust over all sub-samples, right, we can't, we wouldn't bother testing over all sub-samples though we can do, it's just if we have good reason to believe that behaviour in one sub-sample different for behaviour in another E G use er Chow test or equivalently a dummy variable on the intercept to see whether there was any change. Right, okay we'll leave it there, if you just press the escape key and then work your way out of Microfit towards the action menu, exit from Microfit and don't forget to log out of the network.... Okay, feel free to come down here at any time with this sheet and er going through the, the examples in greater detail Q M four FIT was the data file, you'll always be able to access, right... when you've logged out of the network feel free to go and a merry Christmas, see you next year.

[Tim:] One piece. Okay let's see your essays... spend er twenty or thirty minutes talking about the essays and the remainder of the tutorial talking about er the exams because this is the last time I see you before your exams in the tutorial anyway erm so just a few hints and tips on exam technique. Right.... Right, by the way are your aware of erm Professor, erm which visited Nottingham at the moment. Tony is er Professor of Economics at Cambridge and is a world renowned luminary in economic circles and er he's, he's here for the next week as a special professor and er is giving a number of lectures er most of which are open to, to all, to all students and he is a very famous economist, very clever chap you know if you can get to see him I, I'd reco I'd recommend it erm presuma there may be a sort of programme of his visit stuck up on the student notice boards erm, if there isn't er he's giving a, a lecture tomorrow [cough] two o'clock in B seventy four and that's, that's if, he is going to be talking to the M A students er taking Economic Development and Policy Analysis and his topic there is comparing income inequality and poverty in Europe erm so if you, you know, if you are free tomorrow at two it just might be interesting to go along to, feel free to go to B seventy four tomorrow at two o'clock. Erm there's another Econ Soc the Economic Society putting on a lecture at five o'clock on Wednesday er in A forty two and the topic there is What's Happening to the Distribution of Income in Britain and he is also talking to the Public Sector. Take Public Sector Economics and also taking a couple of lectures there, one on Targeting Social Security and er another lecture on An Inefficient on the Official Poverty Line, erm if you want er, well you can get the details from, from me afterwards but something like that could well be on the notice board if you want to go along and see him. He is a famous chap Dick. If you've got time it might be worth spending an hour listening to him. See what he s has to say. [speaker002:] C can we see his? [Tim:] Yeah sure. [speaker002:] Thanks. [Tim:] He's a Professor of Economics at Cambridge and er [speaker002:] It's very big and cos he's in the office next door. [Tim:] Er er right... amazing. Anything else? [speaker002:] Did you get my instruction junc adjustment? [Tim:] Yes that's hello...... this is just an article that we went through last tutorial adjustment developing countries. Has everybody got one on this stage? That will just save you er copying that yourselves library. Right let's just briefly run through this er essay on migration that so some of you answered, can't remember, would somebody tell me the title of it again? It was er what are the major factors influencing migration decisions in less developed countries and how might this affect the urban unemployment. Okay so... er where shall we start? Is migration, just generally, is migration a good or a bad, bad thing? I mean well, why do people migrate? [speaker002:] Getting married. [Tim:] Okay they're migrating from an area of low incomes to an area of high incomes, right broken the route [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] migration scenario. Is that a good or a bad thing? Right okay depends whether they can get, they can get the jobs, right erm what was our experience say when er U K, France, Spain was developing? There was a lot of rural urban migration then, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Does it help or hinder development of those countries? Sorry? [speaker002:] Helped. [Tim:] Yeah helped yeah, why was that? Well you answered it in the first, in the first answer that they got jobs they were employed er the, the rural labourers were able to, to get employment in urban areas er where wages were slightly above those wages that they could reasonably expect in agriculture and because they were actually productive making goods and services they helped the development process. There, is the same true in countries that are developing at the moment?... No what's happening there? [speaker002:] You get high levels of urban unemployment there so migration to the urban areas and not finding employment situation. [Tim:] That's right in, in a current case of in developing countries now [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] migration is, is hampering the development process and that is quite different from when the now developed countries were de were developing fifty, hundred, hundred years ago. So how, how can we explain this paradoxical situation of high unemployment in urban areas and rapid rates of er rural to urban migration? Why is it happening, it seems paradoxical, I mean in theory erm, you know the migration should be driven by the wage, wage differentials, right and migration will redrit will reduce those, those wage differentials [speaker002:] did a lot of the emphasis on. [Tim:] That's right that's, that's, that's the reason why, why they move. W why do, why do people move, I mean if they know there's urban unemployment, why, you know, why do they move? I mean if you've got a paradoxical situation here and there is very high unemployment in the urban area, yet migration is still, is still an ongoing phenomenon,wh what may account for, they, they actually again erm a well paid urban job and they migrate. Right so they may think that, you know, they're gonna be one of the lucky ones, presumably. How about if I said well the reason why they migrate is that they don't know about urban unemployment, you know if, you know, it's a lack of information problem. If they knew that the unemployment rates were twenty or thirty percent in urban areas that they wouldn't migrate but because they don't have that information that's, that's the reason. I mean does that hold any water, do you accept that?... I mean it's a logical, it seems plausible anyway, erm empirical evidence, however, suggests that that isn't why we have rapid migration or such a large degree of migration. Empirical evidence suggests that erm migrants are reasonably well informed about employment prospects in urban areas. Right, so why do they, why do they still move? Well Tom suggested, well they could be one of the, one of the lucky ones that does get, does get a job, what other factors might account for [speaker002:] Do they see erm, if, if they migrate to the city in the urban areas then they realize they won't get a job, and have a job straight away, er well paying job but by actually living in the area they would and taking in at a job and they get a lot of contacts and then eventually after a period of time they job. [Tim:] Yeah, I mean that seems a plausible way of getting into the, er the job market, er what would Harrison Todaro erm say, you know, because they were saying that this migration, this migration was perfectly rational, despite there being high levels of unemployment. [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] What was the basis of their argument? Why did they say that migration occurs even when we have high unem unemployment? Yeah, yeah okay over oh what century were they [speaker002:] long term short term [Tim:] That's right, they say they say even though unemployment rates are very high now, people are prepared to wait ten years before they get a job. Current levels of unemployment are relatively unimportant, hopefully some time down the line they will expect to get er as a relatively well paid job erm because agricultural incomes are so very low, you know, and urban incomes are relatively, relatively high, they may be prepared to wait for you know five or six years in the urban area, making what could be sort of a subsistence wage, simply because that's all that they're gonna be on anyway if they stay in the rural area, so if there is a higher probability of them getting a well paid job merely by being in the urban area making these contacts then they might as well move to the, to the urban area in the hope of some time in the future obtaining that er er an urban job. Right okay. So what, I mean we've been t talking around it at the moment. What are the factors that affect the migration decision? Does em does empirical evidence, well I think you probably say generally that there is some economic factors and there is some non economic factors, which of those two does er empirical evidence suggest is the main driving force behind migration? Is it the lure of the bright lights or is it something more... economic. [LAUGHTER] Yeah econ what appears to be the case is that it's economic reasons that are the main drive, the main driving factors from er the migrant. Although there, although there clearly are important non economic factors. The, the bright city lights that's not what makes people uproot their, uproot their lives and go and move somewhere else, they are after economic betterment and that's the driving force er behind migration so just before we leave the non economic factors what might they be? The non econo economic factors this er erm infrastructure services. okay right, anything else? [speaker003:] just wanting to get away from traditional. [Tim:] Yeah, they may feel constrained in their very traditional modes of life dominated by religion or some er some restrictive erm [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] norms of the, of the society. Anything else you can think of? [speaker002:] Weather. [Tim:] Yeah, yeah that's right, due to s lack of infrastructure in the rural areas, it's much more lively but erm... the disaster of one form or another, of one form or, or another will have a much more important effect, well that's simply because there's a flood then you either swim or you sink, you know, there's no, there's no help a at hand. In urban area there may well be mechanisms in place five against, so on and so forth to, to sort out these problems. Okay right erm, so what seems to emerge is that it's economic factors that are the most important er determinants affecting the migrant's decision. Right so migrants move to the urban areas erm due to the presence of higher wages there. What are the reason for my account the fact that there, they don't obtain these higher wages because clearly there is this income gap the differential is driving the whole process, yet economic theory tells us that the migration should, should diminish that gap between income in urban and rural areas [speaker002:] jobs to go around the people who do migrate to the urban skilled enough to jobs. [Tim:] Okay our, our economic theory assumes [cough] our economic theory assumes that both labour and capital are perfectly mobile. [speaker002:] are different sectors in urban areas. One that er they call the that is the state over employed people and the casual and formal sector had wait dates in the formal sector they don't meet and if this sector does not create many many jobs. [Tim:] Right okay so [speaker002:] formal sector wait [Tim:] For, for opportunities [speaker002:] Yes. [Tim:] to, to emerge. That's right, all we've got here is that although there, there is a high degree of migration, the wage differentials are not er diminishing because we don't have perfectly mobile resources, like are theory tells us that we do have. Clearly the labour is geographically mobile, it's not occupationally mobile, so the people that move don't necessarily have the skills required to take up these high wages. You obvious, supposed high wages in the urban area. What other reasons might account for this urban rural wage differential, just generally higher er standard of living er just cost, just prices er... yeah, the cost the cost of living may well be higher and as a result employers have to pay [cough] higher wages, [speaker002:] Train staff slump, trained [Tim:] Yeah could be important, who are the main employers? Who are, who's offering Yeah that's one of the reasons for the, quite an important reason in, in many cases why, why there are ways of large wage differentials that's because there's a minimum wage legislation. [speaker002:] Does that, does that [Tim:] They don't assume it could be one of the factors that leads to the higher, I mean all these things, they don't actually say what cause the differential is to them. Say there is a differential, what affect does that have on mi on migration, that's where they sort of start from erm who were the import the employers, because er when it says, you know it says empirically validated, wages are higher er in, in the urban areas partly due to higher costs of living, partly due to the minimum wage legislation, but also another quite important influence. [speaker002:] There are some ways of government on wages. [Tim:] What do you mean there Martin? [speaker002:] I mean some, some are better wages because they are subsidized by the government. [Tim:] Right [speaker002:] Which welfare policy by better wages. [Tim:] That's right, it's erm its empirically verified that in developing countries er the civil service or the, the government sector is very very large relative to the, to the economy, now whereas say U K or somewhere like France the government public and semi public er organizations employ ten percent of the, the workforce, perhaps a bit, bit more in France than the U K erm in developing countries the government sector can be, you know, over half of the total urban, urban employment, in some cases it's seventy and eighty percent of er employment. Now it is generally observed that most civil servants whatever country they come from make sure that they er give each other pay rises and I know it happens in this country the Civil Service pay pays quite well and it's certainly a key erm feature in er pay structure in developing countries that if your, if you work for the government you are very very well paid, like government wages can be, you know, four, five, six, ten, twenty times [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] of the, the national average and it's not because erm they're paying high wages to get the, the most able people, it's because there are mechanisms, institutional mechanisms that keep wages high, there's no market in the jobs for,th these are generalizations but I think they are fairly, fairly true erm becau there is no market for er for the jobs, for civil service jobs that appointments are made and it is much more important who you know than, than what, what you know and the old boy network, as it's called, in this country is fairly important in the English Civil Service but a similar sort of network tends to be far more important in developing countries, something that is euphemistically called patronage erm but we might call the old boy network or er er jobs for the boys whatever, but erm [speaker002:] Do they issue them, part of the reason that of them having higher wages is that part industrials are bias that they, they have a higher wages and they think they will have a stronger growth in the industrial sector [Tim:] Well because there is er an industrial bias, erm [cough] what industrial bias means is that gets subsidized because it's subsidized they can pay higher wages er erm so it's not just the government jobs that are well paid it's the industrial jobs. Now because the government has a, plays a much bigger role in the economy the government will be in charge of what you might think of as industrial employment so er a lot of manufacturing, heavy industry er mining so on and so forth will be run as a national as a national industry, right and er wages in that nationalized industry will not be er set at market levels but will be set at, by some institutional mechanism that won't reflect demand and supply or reflect the rent seeking and rent server rent preserving behaviour of civil servants and government quangos er so on and so forth but you must bear in mind that the government sector will er the public and semi public sector in developing countries is vast in comparison to er to develop the countries and as a result wages set in er in the government sector er will erm will be the driving force for all industrial employment, so what with wages and industrial employment. Okay erm [speaker002:] What's erm, what's a quango? [Tim:] Quango, government appointed body essentially. Check I'm right, I think I can spell it, it's a Q isn't it quango? Yes [speaker002:] It's not so accurate. [Tim:] No I don't really think so, it's a name given to a body,so semi public body appointed by, by government. [speaker002:] Like the N R A? [Tim:] Sorry? [speaker002:] Like the N R A. [Tim:] Er are they privatized? They regulatory. [speaker002:] Yeah that's a. [Tim:] O P Q. [speaker002:] How do you spell that? [Tim:] I am just about to tell you [LAUGHTER] Q A P U quan quango, it's a [spelling] Q U A N G O [] semi public body with financial support from and senior appointments made by government. Yes that's a semi semi copy body appointed by the government or possibly with financial support from the government. Right erm okay let's just er wrap up here. What was the main er outcome for Harrow Harrison Todaro's model? They could explain why it was rational like for migrants to migrate even in the a even in the presence of high unemployment. What was the policy and complet [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Tim:] of that analysis? [speaker002:] [cough] Basically government can increase or reduce unemployment by increasing labour demands through just handing out more jobs in the sector. That will create more migration. [Tim:] Right, so it will be sel self defeating, job creation in the urban areas will be self defeating and most of the, the reason why that was particularly important because historically most of the job creation schemes that governments have put in place with or without aid in developing countries is in the urban areas, you know, it's the erm subsidized industrial plants, subsidized erm manu manufacturing industry, right so that the import substitution industries er have been set up with government and or aid money, foreign aid money and what Harrison Todaro was saying you're wasting your time putting money into these big projects, right, because that only in that only in erm exaggerates th the migration problem because it really will increase people's perception of er job possibilities in the urban area, they think there are jobs being created by government there, that will happen as another, as another stimulus er let me just draw a little diagram what Harrison Todaro was saying right we've got time here such to say horizontal axis marks the lifespan of some representative migrant, then you've got wages, wages in the agricultural area and wages in the urban area like let's just say that this is the wage rate in agriculture, right. Now, what the potential migrant will do, Harrison Todaro assumed, was to say, right what they'll do is that they'll, these migrants will mentally calculate the present value of receiving W A throughout their lifetime, right, and they'll discount erm those wages by appropriate discount rate, reflecting the fact that a hundred pounds today is worth a lot more than a hundred pounds twenty years' time or thirty years' time. Right so... something like that and so this represent I mean you can figure this line as being sort of the real wage over the time you mention increasing throughout. [speaker002:] Is the real wage over time so at this point let's just say that's a hundred, a hundred pounds and this is ten say two, well lifespan is thirty, thirty years and a hundred pounds erm today, today is worth er no [Tim:] Yes, it's worth two pounds in thirty years. [speaker002:] What you can buy with one hundred pounds today will buy just two pounds in thirty years? [Tim:] No that's erm, a hundred pounds in thirty years' time is equivalent to receiving two pounds today, that's right as you say [LAUGHTER] []. Okay so if we just summoned this area right, that area there represents the present value of the discounted stream of income. Right over, over a lifetime okay if we could sum this, it seems the time is continuous with the integrate, right, over time, we'll just get the area of that and that curve. Now let's say that urban wages, right are up here and that it's going to take, it's like this individual, this amount of time to get er a job at that, at that wage, let's say that's the expected wage, of the urban area, okay. If we again discount this income at the time or get it looks like that. So this now represents the discounted value of the urban wage overtime. All this potential migrant has to do is to say well does that area right exceed sorry this area. chalk [speaker002:] [sneeze] [Tim:] Okay does that area exceed that area, well that's clear from this little diagram, yes it does. Well what are the key factors that will affect the relative sizes in these two, in these two erm, these two boxes. Well the first thing, right the differential differential between agricultural wages and the expected erm urban wage right would create the closer these, these lines are together, right, the erm smaller would be the difference between this area here and that area there. What other things are are important? Well it's the time taken to gain employment the time taken to gain employment in the urban sector. What is the expected urban wage? Well it's the, the actual urban wage times by the probability of getting a job, right, therefore, the probability of getting a job is also going,go going, is also going to be important erm erm [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] this diagram doesn't actually incorporate this but full thing is going to be the initial costs, the costs of moving, okay, so there, there may be actual physical costs involved this diagram. Right so those are the things that are going to be that will, that will be important. Right erm, just finally,... given that the main conclusion of Harrison Todaro's model was that there's no point erm having job creation schemes in urban areas because that just exacerbates the problem of migration. Right what should we do? Migrat if migration is a problem I think you will all agree that it actually hampers the development process, what should we, what should we do? [speaker002:] Create [Tim:] Okay creating jobs in that sector or creating. Okay if that would raise agricultural wages or [speaker002:] Well raise agricultural wages will reduce the number of people wanting to [Tim:] To migrate? [speaker002:] to migrate To migrate to the urban sector. [Tim:] Okay and hows how best to do that though? Because it looks like you are advocating supporting agriculture. Okay so what, what do rural developments schemes [speaker002:] You will reduce the erm wage differentials as well. [Tim:] Wi it may well do, it may well produce the [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] wage differential [speaker002:] Increasing. [Tim:] Yeah okay I mean this is all what these schemes or what the current school of thought is. Initially, you know, development meant higher than wages, alright, you know, making these erm er er sort of producing cars and high technology goods in urban, urban areas in developing countries was thought, you know, that's the way, that's the way ahead and these big projects, whereas now the thinking has changed and it's let's promote infrastructure, education, erm in the rural areas thems rural areas themselves, right, erm,anythi any other policies so yeah you may want to erm invest, invest in agriculture, and I don't mean some agricultural support but erm promote, well yeah make, make roads, educate the population erm disseminate agricultural technologies. Any other policies that you might think of?... Compulsory castration that's the main problem here, too many bloody people about, that's what's needed population control [LAUGHTER] well that's, that's what's done, that's what they er, you know a lot but not compulsory, well sometimes compulsory [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Tim:] [LAUGHTER] but we don't normally get money from the world bank to er er er get the scissors out, erm the note er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Tim:] population control in terms of sort of contraception awareness, so on and so forth is a major,the it can be a major means of reducing this particular problem. Because part of the problem is that there are too many people in agriculture and if you can reduce the population threshold allowed, right, wages will virtually rise, because labour productivity will rise because there is less labour on the same amount of land. Er, any other policies? [speaker002:] some of these countries in Africa though they've got like compared with the population, they've got loads of land, compared with somewhere say like, like U K, so if that's the case, how come they've got so much surplus labour? [Tim:] Well because the labour in say this country is over productive, this has an awful lot of categories attached to each unit of labour, that's why labour is very productive, is that you for each unit of labour employed there might be ten units of capital, I E there are chemicals etcetera, the reason why erm this this pressure on the land in say Africa, Africa, even though the density of population was much less and that there's virtually no capital there, right, so in order to produce the food, you know the labour has to till the soil by hand and spread the seed by hand [speaker002:] Surely, that would require lots and lots of labour though wouldn't it? [Tim:] Mm, yes that's right [speaker002:] So there should be a surplus? [Tim:] Well it's just that for that, I mean that's all, it's all relative for those conditions there are, there is too much labour on the land, you erm, if you could increase agricultural productivity in a way that would displace labour and that's very difficult to do, well you can, you can do it er most, most capital is labour displacing but not all, not all capital, erm so you could, whereas I see, I see what you are saying is that, why... well [LAUGHTER] the you could g you could, you could do it right even though that there are a lot of people on the land er you could still make them wholly productive by giving them more capital that wasn't labour that wasn't labour displacing, like you give them better seeds for example, like that would increase the productivity of the land, there wouldn't be so much you know population pressure on the land er because everybody would have enough to eat and we could er actually sell something, right. Any other any other policies that you might want to pursue? Say that's population control investment in agricultural infrastructure and technology education and what's causing this problem in the first place? [speaker002:] Do you have er sort of reduce the industrial. [Tim:] Yeah, that's what's causing the problem, very high urban wage rate but it doesn't reflect market forces, so if you erm reduce the subsidies given to er industry [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] erm and get rid of any institutional price setting that there may or wage setting that there may be in those in those industries. [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] You know I hate to say it but privatization might be required, right there's too much government involvement, there's too much erm er there's too much inefficiency, right, by and large there's an awful lot of er bribery, corruption, patronage in developing countries, their government sectors are very very large. Okay just before we go... first we get a copy of er exam papers, this is from G you may already have a copy oh blast... [speaker002:] when you are talking about er public division, does standards er British and with other companies from er Western, Western economies? [Tim:] Okay so [speaker002:] There is, there is a gap in technology er now. [Tim:] That's right apart from [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] these government run industries in these developed countries, they are subsidized to a very large extent and they are not competitive on, on the world market. [speaker002:] So privatize this company there, there will er they will fail in competition with erm [Tim:] They may, they may do. If that's the case you know resources shouldn't be going into, into that particular industry or there is not a direct economic case apart from to the social costs that they be involved in. That company going out of business, erm because er large scale government subsidization erm is, is so prevalent in developing countries er the a lot of the government's resource's being spent on what are inefficient or obsolete industries. [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Tim:] And that's hampering the whole development process because it's high, high wages, high wages creates migration and the whole resource allocation reflects in the economies er are disrupted and because people are moving out of agriculture because they can't make any money from agriculture they think they can make some money in industry like agriculture itself is being starved of capital and er so it hampers the development process, I mean it's a complicated business but er... there may well be some, some sort of strands of sense that we can draw out of this, one of which may be well if the government sectors are too large in these countries essentially it doesn't matter who owns these companies whether it's, they were privately owned or government, erm if they are inefficient they are inefficient [speaker002:] Yes. [Tim:] and if that inefficiency was causing the problem it's not the result of the ownership er, there are inefficient private companies it's just that inefficient private companies tend to go out of business, whereas inefficient public ones can be maintained with subsidization. [cough]. What I'll do is that I'll final of action shortly and I'll tu that's my last copy, that's what I'll do, I'll photocopy it before you go and er give you a copy each [speaker002:] don't worry I the exam, I'm leaving at Christmas time. [Tim:] Alright, oh I see you are not sitting, you are not taking the exams? last year's exam, they er seems to be exactly the same syllabus more or less, yeah. Can I just say, just a couple of points before you go erm... you are all fairly good at writing long answer essay questions, but you are probably not so good at writing short answer questions, right. Now it is very important that you write good short answer questions, because you think they're [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] in actual fact that's where most people fall down and last year [speaker002:] Is it marked with a fifty? [Tim:] Yes, fifty given it exactly the same way. It's much easier to get good marks on a short answer question than it is in theory to but most people don't because they don't apply the correct technique so to writing short answers. We must have in a short answer like there's a definition, most of the concepts there will be erm defined effective protection, its optimal, optimal tariff, trained creation, or trained diversion, there will be concepts that need definition, economic jargon, so you must have an equal er definition in there and you must have examples of how this concept is used, right say erm... er one of those about don't make reciprocal dumping. Write a short essay on reciprocal dumping because define what reciprocal dumping is you've also got to give at least one example of reciprocal dumping, right, so you don't have to give any detailed examples just erm E E C waste er food policy in these days reciprocal dumping would be subsidized after exports in order for America to sell its few exports it has to so it is best subsidised definition define what it is give application of concept erm if the concept involves measurement, say how it, how it can be measured say an effective protection trade, er say how it could, how it could be measured [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] er and then discuss any problems that there might be, is it a contentious issue? Er or are there is there, are there a couple of schools of thought on this particular subject, well essentially what you must do is write something about everything you know, about erm that this particular sort of concept, don't write everything you know on this particular subject, like you have only got fifteen minutes. [speaker002:] So it's, is it better to write a little bit about a lot of things? [Tim:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Rather than a lot about [Tim:] That's what you must do, if you get, if you write a lot about a couple of things they'll say erm this chap's knowledge is pretty specialized on this area, you know what, what these er short answer questions are picking up right is your, is your general knowledge. [speaker002:] So it has to be sort of like written in comprehensive? [Tim:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] written prose [Tim:] But you know, so you [speaker002:] [cough] [Tim:] it's like writing an essay, you've got to try and get as mi many things in as you would do when you if you were writing a full essay but instead of writing a paragraph on each thing you write a sentence on each thing try and cover as many bases, then, that's how you how you get very good marks, it's not, they are not trying to test your erm your deep knowledge about any one thing in these short answers they are testing the broad, broad venture of your, of your knowledge, alright, so what you want to try and do is to... is a blunderbuss approach when you ans you answer these, these questions. [speaker002:] Yes, this these diagrams. [Tim:] Don't touch it with a barge pole, they take too much time but very very rarely do you need to write, to draw the diagram in the short answer questions. That's about the only difference between writing a short answer question than writing a long answer question, is that the long answer is a, is a good idea to have a diagram. In short answers unless it is crying out for a diagram don't bother because you'll spend five minutes drawing the diagram, labelling it, explaining what D P and D S means and it just won't work it definition, application, measurement problems, contention, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Tim:] is it a contentious issue erm ho how is the criticized, very very short, because you are only going to be writing for about a page, a page and a half, right, so just make sure that every sentence or every other sentence carries a new bit of information and then people say, good, this person knows everything about this subject, full marks and you and er but it's all too easy to, to focus on one or two aspects of say a question on trade or er er Harrison Todaro model of migration. If you sp if you spend five minutes drawing a diagram or going through the equations person knows one aspect of this model in great detail, what they want to know is what was the importance of that, of that model, important results of the model. How can we criticize it, how well does it actually fit into what happened in the real world, they just want little bits of information but not too much depth on anything but always remember empirical evidence examples are very important... what I would do is using those examples or la last year's exam paper, practise, practise the short answers because you can't write very much detail in it so it's a good idea to have some idea about how much you can write, then your expectations will be changed okay. Right if you have problems er before you leave or when you're advising afterwards I'll be here throughout vacation and before your exams so come along and you go through [speaker002:] holiday are you? [Tim:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Full time. [Tim:] Yeah, if you want to come and see me please, please do. [speaker002:] Yeah, alright. [Tim:] Cheerio. [speaker002:] next Monday I want to see you have a happy Christmas. [Tim:] Thank you very much Gabriella, happy Christmas to you. See you, see you next term. [speaker002:] Okay [Tim:] If you do have, if you do have any problems [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Tim:] er come along and see me because I, because it is quite you know likely that you will sort of worry about [speaker002:] Yeah. [Tim:] the exams and if I can sort of say, you don't need to worry about [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Tim:] about this you are wasting your time, er then hopefully you if you are having a problem to come and see me and I can tell you if it is a problem or whether it's not, it's not particularly a problem, so you know, come along and see me [speaker002:] Thank you very much. [Tim:] Right but have a lovely holiday, don't forget to have, don't forget to have a holiday, don't revise all the way through. [speaker002:] Okay. [Tim:] Okay, cheerio Gabriella.

[speaker001:] Right okay log on to the network, get into Microfit, call up Q M four FIT and say data last of the finished testing for structural change and then we'll move on to and diagnostics... [speaker002:] person is it?... [speaker001:] The windows a bit [speaker002:] A little bit [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] coming straight at me... [cough].... [speaker001:] Thanks very much [speaker002:] It's not working, is that right? [speaker001:] ... sometimes it gets overloaded, when everybody accesses the same [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] data file... sorry but I'm using windows [speaker002:] Oh I beg your pardon. [speaker001:] Right, if you er if you get access to data erm go into the data processing environment, log to the data, right so log T C I M P can you remember this as textile data, this is textile consumption in the U S, right and we are explaining it in terms of consumer income and the relative price of textiles... [speaker002:] What are we doing? I've got this far [speaker001:] Right okay can you go into the, just log the data... [cough]... okay last week we were looking at test for structural change and we said that the Chow test is the most commonly used test for structural change... in actual fact Chow developed two tests erm, the parameter constancy, I E structural change,fir... the first one is where you remember what the, the principle behind the Chow test that you split the whole sample into two sub periods, right and you see whether the, some of the res residual sum of squares from each sub sample, right, is significantly different from the residual sum of squares from a single estimation over the who whole sample period, right [cough] if they are significantly different that suggests that the parameters that are estimated over the full er sample period, right, aren't as good estimates as the unrestricted estimates when we are allowing two different sets of parameters just to be estimated. Right, what [clears throat] what we'll do is I mean we can confuse the Chow test looking at the residual sum of squares er from each of these sums as the regressions on sub samples, comparing them with the residual sum of squares on a regressionary of the whole sample and the computer will actually do it for us. Right, so it's one I want to, I didn't get time to do last week was to tell you where you specify that you want to perform a Chow test, right, and the computer will generate both of... both of Chow's tests with one, the first one is where we've got enough observations in each sub sample, right, to estimate the regression, right, however, you may, you may detect and figure there is some structural change right at the end of your er sample of observations or alternatively right at the beginning. Now in those cases we can't use the normal Chow tests we've got more parameters to estimate than we have observations, right, as a result Chow developed a second test, right, from structural change where we don't need er erm to estimate essentially the regression in the sub sample which has got very few obser observations but in that Chow, that Chow second test is often called a test of predicted failure, right, Microfit will calculate both of those tests... and bear in mind I mean that we're spending a lot of time on er parameter constancy, we must bear in mind that parameter constancy is vitally important if we are going to make these inferences possible be about policy making on the basis of our estimates. Now if our estimates, say for the marginal to consume or the incoming elasticity of demand, right if our estimates are based on a regression in which the real or the underlying marginal propensity to consume or income elasticity demand is varying from plus four to minus two, you know, is our point test generate from, from regression analysis they are going to be completely meaningless. We want to have some degree of confidence in that er the parameters that we estimate right have remained relatively constant over our sample period. If they haven't remained constant over our sampling period, right, then there's no point in making our sample predictions, alright, we've got to have at least the confidence that our model is re relatively stable over our small sample, right, in order to make any sort of predictions about the behaviour of the dependent variable that we are looking at and the parameter of interest... out of sample... more often than not when we have parameter instability that doesn't always signal a change in government policy, it often signals the fact that you've got a very poor model, a model er is mis-specified and so if we detect a structural change in our model, we first of all try and explain why it may come about [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] was there a major change in government policy, why was, why did consumer behaviour change at this period, right, if we don't have any erm er justification for changing behaviour it probably means that our original model is mis-specified we've got the wrong variables explaining erm the variable of interest on dependent variable. So parameter constancy is a necessary condition, right, for good applied incrementic work, if you don't have parameter constancy, look at another model basically, right. Right so what we'll do is I'll show you how we can compute Chow tests in Microfit if you come out of the data processing environment type Q erm and move to the action menu I guess do that linear regression. Ah yes we will yeah, thanks very much. Yeah well sorry if you come out of the action menu, you will need to create the constant so you press the escape key erm then move back to er the process blot edit save option. Right that will take you back to the data processing menu, then you, then you just create a constant... call it whatever you like.... Now once you've created a constant go into the er estimated test forecast option in the action menu, right specify your equation L N T C space L N I space L N P a constant whatever you called it, right then press the end key. Now when it asks you for the sample statement, ah done it, right before, it will ask you for the sample statement er over what period would you like to estimate this equation, right instead of pressing the return key which gives you the default, right, if you specify nineteen twenty three to nineteen forty... sorry just a a dash between it like that nineteen twenty three space nineteen forty... okay it asks you for the number of observations to be used in the structural stability tests, right, erm if you er press the default er if you press the return key then it should give you the maximum number available right five observations in this case right and then it will perform the regression over the entire sample period, those will be the results you obtain, right, it will also er present Chow erm test statistics. Right so if you go er into squared and estimate the equation, right, it has actually estimated over the full sample period... has it, no it hasn't no alright it hasn't estimated so that's an equation estimated over the first sum, first sub sample, right, if you press the return key again... right... right, at the bottom in the table of diagnostic tests you'll see Chow's predictive failure test, right and also erm the Chow test. Right so there, the er Chow tests statistic F, right, is Chow's first, first test... right and er E is Chow's second test which is often called predictive failure.... Now if you look at the test statistics there... there are two versions of test statistics, one is an asymptotic version, right, assuming that we've got an incredibly large sample and one is the small sample, that's the, that's the L M version. Now we've got the small sample version which is an F distribution. Now what I recommend is that you always use the F version of any of these diagnostic test statistics and we can go on to look at the others erm in a moment. Always use the F statistics unless there are circumstances in which you can't, right if the computer doesn't generate an F statistic, then you will just have to use the L M version.... The reason why it's better to use the F statistic, is that the F statistic has much greater power, right, on the small samples. Both statistics are equally powerful in large samples but by and large you will always be using a small sample, so use the test statistic which is designed for small sample work, that's the F statistic.... Right, what I want to do now is just hand out, before you press any other keys, sort of hand out some... some sheets on er critical values. The Microfit does help by and large by computing er the probability value of it, all the critical values which er are testically significant are different from zero. Ho however that won't be the case for all erm computer programs we use, right, as a result we will need to know how to use er T tables tables and tables. Hopefully, you are all erm familiar with these but just in case you are not... right, let's just er run through them. Could you look at the distribution of T... okay. Let's just say that we are forming a T test on an estimated coefficient and we want to know whether T ratio will be generated on the computer is significantly different from zero. Now let's say that we've got a sample of erm thirty observations... right. Now we want to know and say we generate a statistic of two point five a T ratio of two point five. Is that significantly different from zero... right, well you just go down [cough] the right hand column in degrees of freedom until we reach thirty. Actual fact degrees of freedom is N minus K. Right N is the number of the sample and K is the number of parameters that you've estimated in your model. Right, so say that we have thirty, three observations, right we've got three parameters in this particular model, right, therefore degrees of freedom will be thirty, right, and we've jusk the critical values run across the rows alright. Now the more certain that we want to be about a particular inference, right, the smaller is the significance level. Right, so if we want to be er ninety percent certain about inference that corresponds with ten percent significance level and our critical value there is one point seven zero. Right so if we had a test statistic greater than one point seven zero on a T ratio. One point seven zero then we could refute the null hypothesis. Right, the coefficient was zero. As we increase our confidence, right, so if we are ninety five percent confident we are now looking at the five percent significance level T rat er the critical value rate rises to two point zero point two and if you want to be even more confident, to be ninety nine percent confident about our inference, you look at the one percent level, right, and that has a T ratio of two point seven five. Right so if we had a T ratio of two point five, right, we could reject the null hypothesis of the five percent level but we wouldn't be able to reject the null hypothesis at the one percent level. This is a very common problem in er... statistical inference and th or which... which significance level do we choose? And there's no right and wrong answer to that. You mention the prevention of the equal user five and ten percent level, right, but bear in mind that the more confident you want to, to be about inference I E the smaller the significance level, right, the, the lower is the power of the test. This is why we don't test at the ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent confidence level because the higher you'll, the smaller the probability making a type one error essentially er is significance level, right the larger the probability will make a type two error, right, a type two error denotes the power of the test. Right, so normally we, you know, we want to be reasonably confident, right, so we want to have a reasonably small significance level... we don't want that significance level to be too small, otherwise the power of the test will diminish very rapidly... so we normally use the ten or the five percent, five percent level and if you just look at the er the five percent column, right, overall realistic sample sizes, right, from a hundred and twenty down to, to about twenty, I, those T ratios were the critical value they are all about two and that's why we say you can have a T ratio of about greater than two, then you can be at least ninety five percent confident about your inference. Right, they don't change much as a result of the degrees of freedom er adjustment... okay with er squared distribution yes, sort of different distribution but we interpret the tables in exactly the same way so if you just have a look on your screen erm, there's an L M version of the serial correlation test, right, and that has a squared distribution one... right and the test statistic we obtain on your screens is calculated in two point eight eight, no two point zero eight. Alright, is that significantly different from zero or you could go to a pie squared tables, look at the degrees of freedom, which is one, right. At the five percent level the critical value cup of squared is three point eight. Right, so if we had a test statistic greater than three point eight it would reject our null hypothesis. Right, in this particular case it is of no serial correlation is our null hypothesis. Right so [clears throat] again large test statistics whether they're Ts Fs or kie squares. Larger dis large test statistics mean rejection of the goal... right erm there's no simple rule of thumb with kie squared you just have to look at the erm actual tables to find out what the critical values are. However, latest th er Microfit not only gives you the test statistic but gives you erm the significance level, probability value er which erm that test statistic is significantly different from zero... right so if we are looking at that serial correlation test statistic of two point zero eight right we would accept the null hypothesis of er no serial correlation, right, or wouldn't be able to reject it strictly. Wouldn't be able to reject the null of no serial correlation, right, until we reach fifteen percent significance level. So if our, if you wanted to be eighty five percent confident about our inferences, right, we would reject that null hypotheses of no serial correlation, right, if we wanted to be ninety five percent confident about our inferences we would accept the null point of no serial correlation in tha in that case. Okay erm, [clears throat] if we just turn over the sheet look at distribution of er of the F statistic. In the F test we have two measures of the degrees of freedom, right, you need to have the degrees of freedom in the numerator N one and in denominator N two. Right, the degrees of freedom... in the numerator just denote the number of restrictions that you are actually making the test. Right so if you look at erm... the Chow test at the bottom of your screens, right the F test, right is an F three in seventeen test. Three in the numerator denotes that we are making three restrictions... to be restricting our parameters of three parameters in this particular model, constant, coefficient on, log of prices and log of you are restricting those er at a zero [clears throat] when we estimate over the entire, over the ent the entire sample... okay and yeah [speaker003:] Do you have to say an N two would you round up or round down to be sure? [speaker001:] Then you just er interpolate so erm if you are looking at an F one fifty test this, which we've got tables here that give F one thirty and F one forty, oh sorry F one forty and F one sixty just interpolate so the critical value would be nought point nought five, sorry, four point nought five, right, so you just average the difference there.... Right [clears throat] so if we're erm want to compare an F statistic to see whether it's significant, right, you just go if it's a F three seventeen [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] as in this case we go down the three column, the three is a in the numerator N one, right, till we reach seventeen, right, and now test to see if it's three point two... right, so if we [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] our Chow test here indicates strongly that we have structural change because we've got a test statistic of twenty two, right, far away, different from three point two our critical value. When you are actually sort of writing er, say if you are, when you are doing your project or doing your work it's not just sufficient to say always T ratio is greater than two, therefore, it's statistically significant, you must calculate the er correct critical value you use, right, for th for each T ratio and also if you are looking at any diagnostics or looking at the significance of the regression which is an F statistic... right you must give the five percent or ten percent whichever you choose. You must give the exact critical values, right, if those critical values that you are using to compare with the regressionally significant whether you have serial correlation or not erm so they're very very important and they ought to be included erm because otherwise we don't know whether a test statistic is er statistically significant or not. Right okay so when you're performing test for structural change, right, if you just erm go through the simple estimation routine as we've done... the way you think. If you don't know a priori where the break will come, right, only we can get some, you can get a handle where the break in this series may come by looking at the rolling regression like you did last week. That will give you er a good idea as to where the break comes. If you are not too bothered erm, if you don't know a priori where the break comes, you can just split the sample size in half and just estimate erm an equation for each, not less, you won't but the computer will, if you just specify half the sample size, right, and when it asks for the number of observations failure or Chow tests you just press the return key and it will use all the remaining observations, right, but when you are doing the empirical work you should always test for structural stability, right, and er either of Chow's tests will, will suffice, right, but if you've got [clears throat] a very small stock sample where there are fewer observations than there are parameters to be estimated you will have to use Chow's second test failure. Although it does have lower, lower power than his first test, right, but if you can't calculate his first test then it's the best thing to use. Right, okay, erm... let's now move on to er these other diagnostics, right, like test for structural change these diagnostic test statistics that are calculated for right, because essentially what they're doing is that they're testing the assumptions on which ordinary leased squares is based. Now if you violate any of the assumptions ordinary squares, right, then the procedure will produce or may produce misleading results, we can only be confident in statistical terms about ordinary leased squares parameters, right, because we know and show in theory that they hold providing a number of assumptions are met, like you have serially uncorrelated errors, right, we don't have m multi co-linearity amongst the regresses, right, we have constant variance throughout the sample... now if any of those er assumptions are breached, violated then our, any statistical results that are generated from erm the technique that assumes that those assumptions haven't been breached erm are invalidated and we can get very misleading er parameter estimates, right, in the presence of auto correlation or multi-linearity erm. Right, Microfit holds this in this regard and every regression that you estimate will always have a table of diagnostic test statistics after it, right, so although we are interested in the parameter values of our estira estimated right, in order to have any confidence in those parameter values you must ensure that we haven't violated any of the assumptions [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] in which is based, right. In Microfit, you've got tests for serial correlation, functional form, normality of the residuals, right, and hetero skilasticity right if you reduce the sample size at the beginning of the estimation period you will also get Chow tests in there as well. We can use the whole sample but just get those four... erm four test statistics... okay. Now if we just look at the er test statistics for this particular model, right, if we chose say the five percent significance level... right, then we can see serial correlation, we've got a test statistic of two point zero eight, right, we wouldn't reject the null hypothesis there, the null is that we have no serial correlation, we have uncorrelated errors... right, clearly we want uncorrelated errors, right, so we'd be quite happy with that particular test statistic, it doesn't exceed the er five percent critical value. So it doesn't look like this model exhibits serial correlation. Second test for functional form and there should read, you know we've logged our data here... logging implies there's a multi picketed relationship between the variable expressed in absolute value, is that the case or is there a linear relationship or some other type of relationship there? So funct the functional form test will see erm will tell us whether we ought to possibly log the data or whether we ought to unlog the data and just do a regression in er er in absolute levels as opposed to logs. Right so the functional form test, if we look at the kie squared version, right, again we've got a very small er test statistic implying there's no... breach of functional form... right, the, the log er specification, right, seems to be working okay, there's no problems with it... erm if we now look at normality we've got a bit of a problem with normality, right in that our test statistic is now four point nine, if we look at the critical value at the five percent level of kie when kie squared two, ah it's not too bad, our five percent critical value of the kie squared two is five point nine nine, so although that test statistic is reasonably high, I mean you'd probably reject, oh yes, we can reject the null at ten percent of normally distributed errors... we wouldn't reject the null at five percent... erm... let's just have a look at in actual fact at those errors to see what the problem is. So if you erm press the return key... er go into option three... right and what we'll do is... we'll, we'll plot erm plot the histogram of the residuals because what this test for normality is doing is seeing whether the residuals we get from our regression are normally distributed, right O and S assumes that they will be. Now, the reason why we're getting a fairly high test statistic is that er, that distribution, although it looks normal on the left hand side, it doesn't look particularly normal erm on the right and that we are missing some observations, we are missing some values of the residuals er in one area of the graph, nevertheless if we had a larger sample, right we probably erm, right it doesn't look, that looks quite encouraging in actual fact, those residuals do seem to be er normally distributed er what the test statistic is doing er it's saying [clears throat] it's performing a, it's a kiescraper two test, it's making two restrictions, one of which is saying, is the distribution of these residuals symmetric er and also it's testing whether there's one of the tails is a lot larger or a lot longer than the other tail of the distribution and er test statistics fairly high but we wouldn't reject the null of normality at the five percent level so our test statistic is four point zero eight and the critical value is five point nine nine and that the five percent significance level, so we've got reasonably er robust residuals. Right, if you just want to come out of there and we'll just have a look at the plot of the residuals, if you plot the residuals... the test for serial correlation there... well the test for serial correlation, right, and try and determine whether there's a auto regressive structure to those parameters and I think Steve was talking to you about er auto regressions, so what the computer is doing essentially, it is getting the residuals from the model... raised and it's regressing them... right on the residuals in the previous period, right, and it's testing whether this parameter row, right, is significantly different from zero... right, now if this is, if row is significantly different from zero, let's say it's nought point six, that implies the residuals in T are not independent of the residuals in T minus one. Right there's some correlation between the two, right, auto violation... the residuals... right, so where we don't have residual auto correlation which is the case here, you could actually save the residuals, perform an error less and you wouldn't find coefficient on residuals with T minus one significant, you've got an, potentially that's what these tests for serial correlation do, right, they, you can think of them as r saving the residuals, running a, running this regression, right. Where we this is first order correlation, you may want to specify erm, some second order serial correlation in which case you'd be seeing whether the residuals in T were related to the residuals in T minus one. Well if we specified our model correctly, right, then these residuals should be just one noise, they should just be, appear with random fluctuations with mean zero. Right, and if you look at those, they look pretty er pretty uncorrelated. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Clearly there's no systematic structure in those residuals, right, if the residuals were moving in a cyclical manner erm that would imply that we are missing an important explanatory variable in our model and its systematic effect has been just thrown into the error term and as a result we are picking up that systematic effect in, in residuals. Okay press the er escape key... and go back to the regression results, erm so return to the post regression menu and then display regression results,regressult results again. case of the diagnostic tests... this model looks reasonably okay, we haven't got erm significant serial correlation, we haven't breached form, we have reasonably normally distributed residuals, right, test for hetero skilasticity that just a test to see whether the residuals are growing over time, right, hetero skilasticity is where we have non constant, non constant variance... of our, of our error term... right, and very often you, you find that the variance through the residuals, something like that... the residuals will look like that, I think, they're growing systematically over time, right, these are homo skilastic right, and these are hetero skilastic right, residuals and again we wouldn't want to have a model of hetero skilastic residuals, right, simply because that violates one of the assumptions on which the blue properties are based. hetero skilasticity means to erm... erm we don't have biased estimates for our parameters, we have estimates that don't have minimum variables and they won't be the most efficient estimates. got a very low test statistic either in terms of kie or F right so we haven't reached but the model is still a poor model because we don't have erm er stable parameters, right, so you would actually reject this model as it stands, alright, because it didn't pass the diagnostic test statistics but there is no point generating parameters w if they, if they are not constant and you're gonna say elastic demand is one point four six or really it it's ranged between minus three plus, plus six over the sample, so you put estimate means... so it must have constant parameters. What you might do, although I say you'd reject this particular model and that [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] this is a structural change, what you could do or the easiest thing would be to do was just to incorporate a dummy variable, right, if you incorporated a dummy variable to a erm... and to explain the and to take out the effect of structural change, right, er in that dummy inclusive model, right, all the diagnostic test statistics were okay, right, you would use, you would, therefore, use that, that particular model... what we might do is just see if that is the case erm so if you come out of er diagnostics, work towards the data processing environment and generate a dummy variable... right, so if you go into the erm data processing environment... if it's in the er sort of process plot option... what we'll do create a dummy variable call it D and let D pull zero press the return key and then edit... D oh and if you just set erm observations for [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] nineteen thirty nine through to nineteen er forty five or whatever the end of the sample is to one, set them all to one [speaker002:] Is forty. [speaker001:] Well thirty nine or forty all do it to thirty nine just to keep, so all have the same results. I mean where we could dummy into the war here so the war starts in thirty nine so unless you've got good reason to believe that consumption wasn't affected until nineteen forty, we use a dummy for the whole war period... once you've edited, once you've edited the variable you press the end key that saves the edit. All I do now is regress our model... right, including just a, a cons a constant dummy, right, so if you specify your regression equation, just add D to the list of explanatory variables, right, so we are assuming that the effect on the textile consumption is simply just to move the demand function up, right, use the entire sample period... amongst this estimation. You know that the parameters were non constant but hopefully they will be now constant, now that we've er included the dummy variable... okay er so if you go to the diagnostic menu we've got a bit of a problem, right, the dummy variable that we've included erm er you might, you might get away with this amount. It seems that we now have serial correlation in our model as a result of including the dummy... right, now we've got to test statistic, I mean always look at the F version of the test, right, er our F statistic of three point seven six is significantly different from zero, right, that leaves seven percent level, so a five percent test... we probably accept that we didn't have any serial correlations and we just got there by the skin of our teeth on that particular test erm yes, you could probably get away with this one, functional forms fine, no problem there, hetero skilasticity right, are F statistic three point nine but significantly different from zero that's six percent level, right, so again we just scrape it if we were looking at the ninety five percent confidence it wants to be five percent if you are using as five percent significance level. Right, we can just get there. So this model would be er, you can say it's reasonably robust, bear in mind though that those test statistics on serial correlation and er hetero skilasticity are very close to the critical value used. Had you chosen the ten percent significance level as your cut off point... erm you would infer there is both serial correlation and hetero skilasticity in, in the model. Right, so, you know, there's no econo-matrixes by no means the science and you can essentially get the computer to er tell the story that you want simply by choosing er critical values but nevertheless we've re probably be reasonably confident in our estimate, particularly if those estimates, we'll just go back to them, er the er display the regression results again, display them again but those coefficients are elasticities, right, they're cored with our a priori reasoning... right, we put ah, unit elasticity, you may want to test the hypothesis that the elasticity on erm the income variable, that income elasticity is significant given one, just generate computer a T ratio in the hypothesis value being one instead of zero, as in a normal T test, right, and that coefficient point nine five is sufficiently close to one, by looking at the standard error to er further that is an estimate of one... you've got very inelastic er demand erm for the, the textiles, that coefficient, is that the time, I can't believe it if that's all, oh no that's eight, don't worry [speaker002:] Eight. [speaker001:] Yeah so it's point eight, so it is, you do have price, price elasticity demand for textiles is price inelastic. Right, and we may, we may expect that to be the case, you know, clothes don't have, textiles don't have many substitutes. As a result erm changes in demand are gonna be er fairly unresponsive to changes in price because you've got to use textiles in order to make clothes and everything else that you make textiles with. Right, okay I think that's probably er about it we'll leave it there, if you come out of Microfit don't forget to tell it to log off the network. What's er Steve doing with you at the moment in, in lectures, has he started auto regressive models? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Right...

[Dawn:] The first session we're gonna look at is called Training and. It's just literally about a twenty minute session. The purpose of the session really is to give this training course an overview and also to, to sort of have a for training. What we want to do in this session as I said it will only take about twenty minutes, there are three key things we want to do. One, we're going to look at why well trained staff are, are so important to the C U, secondly we're going to look at things responsibility training is and lastly we want to look at a systematic approach that you can take as training. Those are the three things we're gonna cover in about twenty minutes. Well the first thing that we want to think about is... why well trained staff are so important to the company... and do this very much a participated session, ignore the tape, I am, I've forgotten about it already! So why are well trained staff so important to the company?... You can just shout out any ideas you have so why do we need well trained people? [speaker002:] Productivity. [Dawn:] Productivity.... Yep? [speaker002:] Cost efficiency.... [Dawn:] Much more cost effective isn't it if things to be done once rather than have to do reading them two or three times and generally the reason that things are repeated a number of times is that perhaps people are not really quite sure or not that that are systems, yet productivity the better trained people are people who can do things, get it right the first time and they can do more work can't they than somebody else you are not having to pick it up as the manager responsible and put mistakes right. So productivity and cost efficiency. [speaker002:] It gives a good impression... [Dawn:] Yeah, like so many industries we're competing on good service aren't we and if we do things right it does convey a very professional image of C U to, to, to the company, to the, not to the company, to the, to the market place. I mean you were gonna say something. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dawn:] Any more? So we've got Er yeah... that's a good one isn't it? Just as if, if we are in a sort, team leader or a section head as I've shown, it doesn't mean to say that we hold all the knowledge, we can pass it on to others, who can he pass it on to somebody else... although you ultimately may be responsible for the training of other people, you don't need to do it all yourself do you, but unless you pass on skills, you're gonna make a sort of a quite a vicious circle for yourself aren't ya? [speaker002:] Yeah. ... [Dawn:] And how does training do that? [speaker002:] ... [Dawn:] We all like to get things right don't we? We all like to think we can do things and we can do things well. It actually helps our morale doesn't it and it sort of helps our confidence.... I don't know about you, but if I had to sort of pass something on to somebody else to check, if I can see somebody scribbling on it, I, I, I, I feel quite edgy, I hate it, I like to feel that I can do it and I can do it well and that other people don't need to have to amend it. There have been a lot of studies done with regard to morale and job satisfaction and it has been shown that, that if people are well trained, they feel a lot more loyalty towards the company cos they feel that somebody's actually taking responsibility for their training and development.... How does that help us in the outside world if people know that we... we give good training? [speaker002:] ... [Dawn:] Yeah we attract a better class of candidate don't we? People hear within the market place that, that we give good training, that we do develop people and it does attract good people to join us doesn't it, whereas very few people want to join a company where you go nowhere, where you're not given any training you stay in the same job for ten years and it does nothing for you. Most of us like to feel that we can join in and we can progress if we want to.... Any others? [speaker002:] If any decided [Dawn:] Yeah.... Yeah.... We need to sort of plan we need to grow people, develop people. Otherwise if we don't invest money and time in training, we're forced to have to go outside to sort of buy in people, because we haven't actually invested in them..... Any more?... I think those are the... those are the key things that we want to put across really. I think the other thing is is about erm [cough]... flexible as well, we've got a flexible workforce. If people are well trained, you've got lots of people in turn you know when you've got absenteeism or holidays, you've got lots of people who could be slotted to different positions for you and obviously the better trained people are, it does help with the talent, it makes you more flexible and you've got more people who can possibly go for certain jobs.... Awful lot of reasons why training i is so important to us an and basically it simply all comes back to our statement isn't it,it it's to be a sort of feeding insurer to give unsurpassed service. I mean th there's no way we could do that unless we've got well trained staff.... We can't compete on the basis, we can't project the profession if people aren't well trained and people are making slow and the only way we can overcome that is by taking the time to train people. And on a more le local level you're quite right... the better trained people there are, the more they, the happier they feel... the more work they have, the more job satisfaction they have. There is a direct correlation between morale, motivation, job satisfaction and absenteeism and staff turnover, if people are happy they generally want to stay for us they're much more loyal and work harder and... when we're managing an area it becomes a lot easier because we are not having to, people are well trained they do the things right first time, you're not having to correct their mistakes. So training is... is essential really, it's fundamental. In fact we'll move on quickly now to have a look at, we've looked at why it's so important. If we spend one or two minutes just thinking about whose responsibility is training? Who do you see as the sort of holding responsibility for training? [speaker002:] Whoever's got some knowledge to pass on. [Dawn:] Yeah, who has ever got knowledge to pass on.... Cos if you were asked as, as, as a person by, by a manager or by somebody else to, to actually do the training, then it's your responsibility isn't it you've been asked, you've been given that task and it's your responsibility to ensure that people are able to do at the end of the session something effectively. Who else do you see as holding responsibility for training? [speaker002:] Training Officer. [Dawn:] Yeah. Training Officer.... That's what they're... they're employed to do at any particular site, but they don't hold total responsibility do they? [speaker002:] Line Manager's job. [Dawn:] Yes, yeah.... Line Managers and Supervisors as well are, are responsible for training because as a Line Manager or a Supervisor you're responsible aren't you for training and developing people. That is one of your accountabilities to develop others and training falls into that. Now you may as a manager think well you don't have to do it all yourself, you can use senior people within your section who have the knowledge or you can use training officers or you can use people like ourselves at the training centre or the C B T or the I Vs or it could be that you bring the marketing department to help you out. There are lots of resources available for you, but ultimately if you have a manager or a supervisor in your title, then you are responsible for the training development of others, or in a technical, Louise and Andy the B T As are responsible for the, the technical training, aren't they, of others within, within the section cos you have the knowledge. Well what a lot of people say on the course is I know it's my responsibility, but I always, I don't always have the time to train because there's a lot of backlog, there's a lot of pressure, it's... and we all say to them that training is like a catch twenty two situation. [cough] If you don't make the time for training due to the work, pressures or deadlines or backlogs, and if you're not training others they make mistakes don't they? If they're not properly trained it's not their fault, people can only do what they can do can't they? If th they don't know... if people are not properly trained they are making mistakes then it does make more work doesn't it? Because the mistakes have to be rectified... and it puts us under even more pressure because you've got even less time. So training... we do need to make the time otherwise it does become a catch twenty two situation.... But as you said if it is your responsibility you'll have to do it all yourself, there are lots of resources and lots of other people who can actually help you out who have the knowledge and you can use... because you can use it as a development tool can't you for some of your members of the section to... to give them some training expertise.... Right so we'll just look at the sort of er the negative side of not making the time that we get more mistakes. We have to rectify more mistakes and put more pressure on us. What I'd like to introduce lastly now is an approach that you can take to training... to help yourselves and to help make it more effective and more systematic and what I'd like to introduce to you is, is something called the training cycle and the rest of the course is actually based around the training cycle and I know Margaret you've actually seen the training cycle a few weeks ago, I'm not sure if, if any of the others are, any of the others familiar? [speaker002:] Yes, I have. [Dawn:] You've seen it before. Good.... Now for questions in the next session now. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dawn:] Can't remember it though. Great. We've seen training, there have been four major steps for training and the first of which is actually to identify training needs. So before we start doing anything at all we actually do some identification of trainees. What do you think this actually involves?... Those that have seen it before. [speaker002:] Oh right. [Dawn:] Or for those who haven't seen it before. What do you think identifying training is all about? Yeah. Yeah. To find out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Identifying trainees is all about finding out who needs to be trained and what they need to know... and if you remember one of ject objectives we had for the course is, was to, so that by the end of the course you will actually develop a system by identifying the trainees because... this is sort of hit or miss. If they're gonna do training well, then we need some sort of system to find out who knows what... and what people need to learn. We need some sort of method for finding out what people need to know. The second part once we know what people need to know... we now need to think about putting together some training which actually satisfies that particular need. So this next part is called design in training. We're slipping into the training jargon here, but all it is is writing, just putting together some material which is, which is just what they need. If you haven't done this, if you haven't found out exactly what people need to know, the danger is that when you actually start to put together some material it's very hit or miss isn't it?... It could be that you're giving them some stuff that we already know or it could be that you're giving them some stuff which is far too advanced for them, they don't have the basics there.... Sometimes we know people very well, but it still helps doesn't it if somebody else comes in that there's some sort of system there that somebody else who takes over your section can find out exactly who's received what. The last point then is delivering the training. Once we've actually written the session we can then deliver it... and the delivery is generally much more effective if we've put together material which suits their needs perfectly. You feel more confident don't you in a group situation if you know exactly what people er er know or what they don't know, cos there's nothing worse isn't there than to go in and thinking they may already know this, I might be going in an teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, I'm not sure what they know about this. You feel much more confident don't you if you know exactly what people need from you. You go in feeling better and cos you feel better you'll deliver it in a much more effective way. And the last part is something that a number of you had for your objectives is and evaluation monitoring and evaluating training. Once you've actually delivered it, you then need to find out well was it successful, did we achieve our objectives, did people learn, what we wanted them to learn.... This is the very important part of the training cycle and the cycle is incomplete cos there's no good investing in time and training is there if we don't know whether we've been [speaker002:] [cough] [Dawn:] successful or not. If we have, great, we find out what else they need to know. If they haven't quite got it, then we may need to re-do parts of it. But we think the training cycle is something that's continuous.... If people are new we need to train them to get the maximum competent level don't we? If they've been with us for quite some time there are always ways we can enhance people's skills aren't there? There are always ways that we could make people more effective or help people to... got the wrong flip, but, but to grow into other jobs.... So that's the training cycle... and we believe that if you follow that approach to training, then it will help you to be very effective and successful. That's something that we definitely do here. Right first of all I said it was an overview and that's all it was. What we wanted to look at to start with was why training is so important, whose responsibility training is and lastly a systematic approach to training. What we're gonna do now, it's just coming up to twenty past three, so we'll take a tea break and then after tea we'll come back and we'll spend about an hour or so looking at identifying trainees.... We'll look at what you're currently doing and we also suggest to you something that you could be doing. Any questions?... Quite happy? Right, so we'll take tea then. It's just coming up to twenty past three we'll take fifteen minutes. [speaker003:] That's a bit impressive Dawn, fifteen minutes [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] blimey. We were only given ten on the first day. [Dawn:] unfortunately [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] Yeah and I need the diction I dunno why. Asking questions referring, do you get that situation whereby you're told something two or three times and yet they keep coming back? Is it a training need, or could it just be the fact that if they pass it on to you, they know you're dead? [LAUGHTER] Two aspects of that, but I think that's a good way of identifying training. Yeah, we're on the training cycle again another one. [speaker002:] contact with the outside world customer services [speaker003:] So what would you, how would you identify from that? [speaker002:] There's no margin [speaker003:] So we got two then on to errors and erm complaints. Yeah? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] What you said? Yeah. It says, you know broadening it out a bit so we can be a bit more specific. [speaker002:] Alright. Changes in job specifications, personnel changes. Reinforced ones [speaker003:] Alright... changes in job spec... [speaker002:] I procedures were introduced.... [speaker003:] Any others?... [speaker002:] backlog [speaker003:] Okay.... Yeah, erm [speaker002:] By examining people's body language. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] We're not going to that one now, cos I haven't examined your body language I'm not really interested. Erm right, difficult one that it's like the body language after what? looking at do some work. [speaker002:] Amazing [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yes, thank you for that precise definition there.... What was that, sorry? [speaker002:] Yeah you wanna see if they can do it or not you can tell if somebody, if you give somebody something to do body language you can normally [speaker003:] Yeah sit at their desk. Now the thing about positives, when identify you know somebody might have training. Now be positive about it. [speaker002:] When they've been promoted to a high ranking job. [speaker003:] Right, promotion.... And if you've got somebody who's gonna be promoted or you think might be promoted in a couple years' time, or even yeah less than that, well what should you be doing? you ever heard a succession plan is?... Er you probably don't do it... erm... you know er so brazenly probably the back of your mind but again key staff, you are key staff er yeah if you actually prepare somebody to take over your job when you're not there sort of thing. So in a way it's a succession plan.... What other things might come out?... What do we do once a year? [speaker002:] Review. [speaker003:] What? [speaker002:] Review. [speaker003:] Review. Anything else, appraisals, yeah things like that?... Anyone else. comprehensive list. New recruits ask them what a good idea. Charts of asking questions, if people come to you and ask questions keep referring the same things similar things to you all the time. Perhaps it's cos they don't know the basics. What sort of errors do they make? Persistently make errors and the same with it. Complaints from other departments and complaints from members of the public, changes in job spec er new technology perhaps er... backlogs that, people always have a backlog don't they? Is it cos they're lazy, often think it's cos they're lazy don't they? [speaker002:] I think it's often because people are always and then it always gets put to the bottom of the pile. [speaker003:] Things they're not so sure about. Perhaps might not be it, can't, you can't wave a magic wand and say everything's but they might not. Body language can suggest you have like jumping out a window or hanging themselves or whatever. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Promotion, succession planning. We do enough succession planning in C U... you know it's magic you know, you know number two like it's smashing number two it's still you know, you know young children, number two has a different connotation to what it does here, but definitely if you are a number two here, it means the same to what a child thinks it is, but I [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] er, and appraisals. All... all packets that we can use to identify... I really do need people to talk to me. Alright, so that's a brief out overview if you like of some of the errors that we can do. Let's go a bit more specific... Job analysis.... We do the first bit who needs to be trained... what do they need to know is the second... Yeah, so what they need to know and why... forms a heading Job Analysis. Where do you get your job analysis from? [speaker002:] Personnel. [speaker003:] What? [speaker002:] Personnel. [speaker003:] Personnel. Okay, has anyone seen their job spec? Does it actually give you any training on it? It's very broad isn't it yeah. Erm [speaker002:] Oh no it's the same sort of thing you're told it when you [speaker003:] You're told it aren't you? It tends to be blocked up in somebody's mind what you do. Right, that's the other element, it's what you think they think you should be doing and it's amazing how few people, yeah that's the yeah [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] I talking about, but that's what job specs are all about. It might seem long-winded, but dependent upon er if you get it right at the start with it, it might mean that one of the things we're suggesting er you might say no, it's not for me this, but you might think that job analysis is a good way of identifying training. What they've gotta do and why they do it. What's the starting point for job analysis do you think?... What's the first thing you've gotta identify? Yeah, the need for the job er... er... yeah, not, not quite exactly what I'm looking for, the way of the trainer's dilemma isn't it? I've got an answer for that it's not quite right, what shall I do? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Can I just say no, shut up. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Or should I and this is all part of it isn't it? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Cos he won't say anything to me if I don't know what's wrong [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] erm won't say anything else will he? [speaker002:] What results [speaker003:] Yeah, alright. Yeah okay, so we're looking for results. The results of this person why are they employed. So the results that we expect out the job.... If you get results it could earn a job analysis what would we do? If I, if I was a job analysis person, what will I sit next to you wouldn't I and what would I have missed out? Right, yeah. Another word for main responsibilities. Mm, you're testing me today aren't you! Right. Key... tasks... What is the person's key task? This is difficult stuff I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this... because it's covered on various other courses as well. Things like appraisal skills er level one level two, various others, other courses that we run. There's your job... the first thing I should do is say well what are the key tasks, what are the areas that would mean results? Perhaps a working demonstration might highlight something I'm trying to. Take the job of a receptionist. Who's been a receptionist? You have haven't you Elaine? [Elaine:] Yes [speaker003:] Right.... Let's list the tasks of a receptionist. Shout now, go on,let let's go for it. [speaker002:] Telephone, answering it... [speaker003:] And telephone, answer. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] That's what you think they do. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Er, you're right, erm I can't think of the right word er [speaker002:] Re-route. [speaker003:] Re-route, same thing as what you meant isn't it? Diverts, if I wrote divert up here you might use it against me in later life. Erm er route, let's just call it route er to... correct... yeah? Does that make sense, that's for the receptionist we don't expect her to fiddle with the rates for liability, capital or whatever do we? Anything else a receptionist does? [speaker002:] ... [speaker003:] Okay? Okay, so it's erm... meet... public yeah? [speaker002:] We need to [speaker003:] What? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Amuse kids. [speaker003:] Amuse kids? [speaker002:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I can see why you gave the job up! Right now [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Any others, come on, you know just think about some things your receptionist would do. [speaker002:] Cashiering, petty cash and... [speaker003:] Petty cash er accounts yeah? [speaker002:] Post [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] It's normally the person that needs it the most actually isn't it, but what else? Anything else you think the receptionist, you might have seen your receptionist do?... Well let's leave it at that, we gotta, we gotta we. What is a receptionist paid to do... out of that list? [speaker002:] Answer the phone customers.... [speaker003:] This one here? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah? You've been actually quite specific there, meet the public, erm deal with. What are all the rest of these? Exactly. Yeah. See there's some difference if we go and say what is a receptionist's key task... all the jobs that we do at work probably only two, three, four of them are actually what we're paid to do, cos they're the results we're measured on. Yeah? Yeah, if you try and think about it processing. There are lots of things we do to get that form to there, we're actually paid to move that form to there. How we do it and the various other things we do aren't exactly what we're paid for but they become part of the job. Say that they're not part of the job that the receptionist gets paid primarily with these.... So what are the key skill areas receptionists need? [speaker002:] Telephone technique. [speaker003:] Telephone technique.... Yeah? [speaker002:] Inter-personal skills. [speaker003:] Inter-personal skills. [speaker002:] Organizational skills. [speaker003:] Organizational skills.... So how does that now by just analyzing if you had to train a receptionist which would you concentrate on?... Does it?... At various branch to branch, you messages. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You do? Yeah? Great. Yeah we learn as well. But perhaps those three are the ones you'll, if it was a new person coming in to the job you'd concentrate on that wouldn't you?... In the training... without out. You think about perhaps another example Host... Host isn't a key task is it? It becomes. Can you remember the tre I nearly killed myself then, another thing you'll learn about training is er that all should be put down and around but... if it, if we were to go receptionist now you've got the idea of key tasks anyway. The rest had to be done, but they're called enabling tasks. Host training you first received can you remember it? How good was it? [speaker002:] It wasn't really. [speaker003:] Exactly, yeah I mean we got trained on Host down here. Now who trained me on Host? Have a guess? Mm virtually but the initial training was done by somebody else lasted eighteen minutes. It was by the manager's secretary who is renowned for her typing speeds. So what happened? [speaker002:] You couldn't follow it? [speaker003:] I couldn't follow it. Yeah, another element, but what did, what did I need to know about Host? What are the three key things perhaps I need to know about Host if I never used it before? Have a? [speaker002:] How to get out. [speaker003:] How to get out yeah. [speaker002:] How to review [speaker003:] How to review. Those are the only things I need to know to start with don't I? What did I get in the talk in eighteen minutes? How to send a letter and review file, issue file, public file, the whole lot.... See what I'm saying is the key task if you break it down is what are the key elements is the first way of identifying a trainee.... So,we if we our receptionist [cough]... if we can say those are our key specifications, again it's a loose idea this is not easy sometimes to look into it, partly because we've been in our jobs for quite a while and you know we don't, we can clarify it, but think about your subordinates and people that might be trained. Identify those first, then you can actually write down what they're supposed to do.... If you can write that down what else can you then build on, what's the next step? So you've done your key tasks, you then write down exactly what they are and then prioritize them, so you got training need not very good at answering the telephone what are ya gonna do? Train them on it. If they're no good at typing you gonna.... To a lesser extent cos that's their key tasks. A lot of people would say well you're typing, they do the typing first, this sort of thing. So can you see how trainee needs analyses specific to them.... [cough] What would be the first stage then?... Competency... you're looking at your receptionist now, because you've identified the key tasks... you might say well what's the standard on these things, how good is she at passing on messages etcetera? Bit of a difficult one to imagine a training exercise on passing on messages, but it could be couldn't it? Some of the large switchboards and things like this.... So you look at the competency and most jobs... have a... a standard of performance don't they?... Most of us are measured on the some form of performance they do.... If you've got that standard you can then identify whether a person is below standard... or... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I can ask you easy questions now and again you know.... Christmas or above it. Are we worried about the above it? Could be that we wanna we could raise this even higher couldn't we? Nothing wrong with people being above standard, in fact it's encouraged.... What about this is the more worrying one isn't it? If you've actually got a standard for the key tasks, you can actually measure the... what we call the performance gap... and it becomes much more logical. Again it's not always easy is it? Some of the things are skill areas and it's not so easy to measure the skill area sometimes... How are we doing so far? We've lost ya, or yous you with us, be honest, cos I wanna move on? Lost ya? [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] Oh, I said have I lost you and you were going [speaker002:] No, with us and I [speaker003:] It's a way, it's a very formal way of identifying training needs... but there are times when you need to do it. You er you just sometimes cross the word poor performer, does that ever crop up?... No? It might do, no not in our branch, well yeah, alright it doesn't crop up but we have other words for it. [cough] It might be that before you start that if we training you need to see what the performance gap actually is. Because if somebody doesn't know what standard they're supposed to achieve... how can they be training then... it's like a piece of string isn't it, how long's a piece of string? It's an idea, take it away, think about it.... One of the other things that leads off from a job analysis by finding out exactly what a person's supposed to do is that you can start doing things like a personal training log, cashiers, cash sell this is a word this is real life example.... This is word that's coming out now of what one department did by a new member of staff.... Can I ask to share cos can you just share one for signed copies. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] It's an introduction cos this is given to a member of staff... and he says the first the question is can develop and train all staff. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Well if it's not it should be etcetera etcetera. Let's move on to the pages... I've got to the actual format here.... It's got training need and it's got virtually everything down there that the new member of staff joining the company would need to know. given this basic.... I mean something as basic as the family tree... yeah [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah? Got a family? [speaker002:] I've got a family tree... [speaker003:] How would, how useful is a family tree for someone? And it's also you know your first few days you sort of you, you become a leech don't you to the person that you know, you know the person sitting next to you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] You know I mean it's really difficult you know they go to the toilet [whispering] they wanna have a crap you know [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] you know they might as well go to the toilet at the same time and all this sort of stuff and yet a little bit of information about that, how long does it take to put together? [whispering] [] and various other things you know where's the staff manual kept I mean when I joined, I didn't know purchase and this sort of stuff. staff you know all this sort of stuff. Nice to know but they're very important flick over a page... Technology Host pack or Host training. Think about people just joining the company, how long does it take to get up to speed on? [speaker002:] Three weeks. [speaker003:] Three weeks. Depends on the job doesn't it, how much they're using, but if they're supposed to be using regularly, surely one person. What do we do? We get people you say well I, you know somebody told me a couple of months back how to use the diary system by you know putting the note in and then dating it... when you want to remind yourself been in the company ten years you know all this sort of stuff and it's just useful bits you know the whole and all this sort of stuff. There's so much that they could learn that would help them in their job.... Move over we on er Systems Training Technical. Now we start getting into the actual nitty-gritties of the job and there's a whole list of things down here. It says okay all this sort of stuff. The important things though are things like who's gonna tutor them but it doesn't actually does it and target dates, completion dates and tests to be done.... How long would that take to put together?... Quite a long time. Once it's in place though benefit of it. If somebody new comes along... there it is here's our training programme for this person new person. Yeah, don't you feel as though you take some care of them. I joining the company something like that... and if they did when you do join a department that does it you have a great sense of belonging, because some of the things you'll do for the training will be allocated to other members round a team, yeah, all this sort of stuff and it becomes very easy, takes a monkey off your back as it were, you don't have to worry. It's just an idea. Again, think about it could it be useful... don't know, might be in the long term.... Another area that I have the plug. This is an advert now coming up. Have you ever seen these personal development plans? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, alright okay. Okay [cough]... front here. Er the company through the Training Centre and the Personnel Department put together a personal development plan. Think it's aimed at your group and also N Ts and people like that. The idea is that formalizing it much the same as you had, I'd just given and it's got induction er it's got A B C erm there are personal details so that departments people picking up, see where they've gone, see where they've been and in things like skills, knowledge required, objectives start, finish dates how and with whom results comments. It's just a training log that's linked up with the job spec, formalizes it a bit more. What if something like this you know if I give this to Arthur and John and say er they just joined I give them this, this personal development plan, who should it put pressure on... should do, yeah cos you should be going up to them and saying well I'm supposed to have done you know X Y Y and they go ah yeah, and then they go up [whispering] with these excuses yeah []. Again it's a thought, these are both group supply.. The contents relies entirely on [speaker002:] Yeah depends might go away [speaker003:] You have, have to check that through to your manager. Er cos at the end of the day if they don't like something trainees analyses. If you could quickly scan down and see what somebody's done and the levels of competency they've achieved, it helps you think that why aren't they doing the job, it might not be a trainee, it might be somebody else.... Another area... now this, this is, this is one of my favourite things. You have to shout Margaret, cos I know you've got a problem with. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Cos I can't. Have you ever seen these skills matrix before. Again it's an idea we took from I think it's West End or various other departments. We look at our team, it doesn't matter if you are section head or not section head or whatever you're just working the team, you have responsibility for training. What you can do is list all the people down here and then you might have a skills matrix you might also have a... product knowledge matrix yeah? You know technology matrix, something like that and what you do you just simply say okay whatever the skills are along here it doesn't really matter. Mr A is good at one, three, five and Mrs B is responsible for the skills that she's good at one, two, three, four, five... eight. Mr C... Mrs D... what does that show ya at a glance? . What else does it show you? [speaker002:] Who trained who. [speaker003:] Possibly Yeah good stuff. Anything else? [speaker002:] Training requirements. [speaker003:] Training requirements. If all these people are doing the same job... officially in the real world we know that some people are more proficient than others that in some things or others, can you see how quickly go down that line... and you say to yourself well Mr A you know he's got all those there... great but there are a few gaps. What happens when Mrs B goes on holiday or goes off sick?... Who copes, how many people can do task two? Only her, which means that when she's not there who must do the job? yeah. You see, you see how easy it is to build trainee analysis a very simple format. Er I would suspect that very few branches and departments have used anything like this. It's locked up away up here isn't it? [speaker002:] just in case. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I never thought of it that way. What do they got stars for in MacDonalds? [speaker002:] Like, like cooking hamburgers properly or, or toasting a bun properly or personal hygiene I think that's the big standard one! Yeah [LAUGHTER] Always make sure they got that.... [speaker003:] Thanks for sharing that [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I was just thinking I'm going to MacDonalds on Thursday so I'll look out for that. Right okay so again it's just a simple idea that shows you an awful lot how long would it take to put that back together?... The actual matrix to design it, yet it comes back to doesn't it? What is the job spec, what are they expected to do, but that's a bit, take for example once it's in place, the chance of it changing regularly are quite minimal aren't they? So, there's perhaps an idea for you is when you go back and you wanna get a bit of clout with your boss is to say well why don't we set up a er training matrix just to check where everyone's. Somebody said it was on the, was it you you said you know somebody mentioned charts. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker003:] Yeah, and you encouraged the staff to [speaker002:] Oh yeah, they all do it. [speaker003:] Yeah. So can we just develop that one says that in our own department they put it up on the wall so people complete it themselves. [speaker002:] Well it doesn't go up on the wall it, it kind of goes around so it's not like public knowledge in there all the time. Oh. You send it round, what they want training on and it comes back to the manager [speaker003:] That's a good idea, cos a lot of training needs have come from [speaker002:] People being trained. [speaker003:] people who are trained. Unfortunately that's one of the problems we have is people are sent on courses. Yeah, you're told you're going and we spend the first day overcoming barriers to the fact that they don't know why they're there, they've just been sent and it'll be good for you, you know this sort of stuff. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah? Yeah. So you know I mean... if you use it perhaps the way as explained it then it's a much better way. What else we got?... Okay... now who what and why... what other things might we need to think about identifying trainee needs? Let's think about the trainee.... And when I say, use the word trainee I don't, it automatically makes a connotation doesn't it if somebody who's new to the job, new to the company. It's not is it? They're all trainees when you've been in the company ten years, twenty years you can still be a trainee learning something new. So what things do we need to think about perhaps from the trainee's point of view? [speaker002:] What level of training they need. [speaker003:] Okay so that's the level of training. [speaker002:] Do they think they need the training?... [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker002:] The type of training that would best suit them. [speaker003:] Oh [cough]... we're on to tomorrow now. Right... I think one of the things we'll be looking at tomorrow is learning styles and people's preferred learning styles and what we'll find is that people in this room you'll all, you might have a slightly different way that you prefer to learn. I'm not giving too much away, and that might be quite important. Anything else? [speaker002:] Make sure that they get training [speaker003:] Yeah, er... not too much... in one go, yeah. Bit like my Host training. Bosh, I was frightened of the thing for months you know, you know there's always keys and what happens if I press sent. You know you got this, you got this fear that the whole company's gonna get this stupid memo. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] You do don't ya? This is this natural thing inside me. So not too much in one go. [speaker002:] Like you said make sure they understand when they, why they are having the training. [speaker003:] Right.... Why? [speaker002:] quite embarrassed being told [speaker003:] Or they think they don't need it. Yeah. Two aspects [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] What other things might we think about the trainee? [speaker002:] to to a certain extent [speaker003:] That's another element. Perhaps identify trainees but it might be something that thinks about when we're actually designing training yeah? Okay, so we're doing well so far. What about the more experienced member of staff who needs training? [speaker002:] ... [speaker003:] Who is actually doing the training? Any of you, I mean cos we've got a very young group this week, myself excluded! Erm... it's certainly a nice everyone on my side. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Very quiet [speaker003:] What do the, what do the older people feel when you go out to train them? Do they like it? Why not? Yeah, who is this oink coming along here telling me how to do my job better. Yeah? Right. So again think about that aspect of it in identifying training needs. What about the experienced person, what sort of training have they received in the past? Does that help you? One of the things we said the worst training session can be... is going over stuff that I already have done, already known, what training have I received that they received in the past?... Okay, we'll leave it at that for the moment. What we've briefly done... is look at how we identify who needs training. Some are so obvious that new recruits but now don't forget the other the asking bit. What do people want to do? A lot of us ignore the fact that people do have their own development and they want to do something a bit more exciting, but unless we're given the opportunity ask will they want to demonstrate it? Asking questions, referring, they keep doing that all these ideas here... perhaps a good starting point is a job analysis. but what are their key tasks, what are the things they're actually paid to do? From that we can then build up the job spec, you know the training needs like the, a little example we and then we can look at competency. How competent are people in their keys tasks, they're the ones we should vote on first off. If they're performing below standard, we've got a gap... performance gap, that needs training good identification of training, but identifying exactly where they are performing and how. If they're performing above, what can we be selecting those people for? Promotion or Yeah, very easy way, people learn from a peer group, much better... sometimes. Also thought about trainee, what sort of things do we need to think about in terms of the trainee? There's one other area that's just sprung to me about the trainee and their actual... ability. Is it worth training somebody... who has never, hasn't got the mental capacity to progress to another job or perhaps performing? [speaker002:] how do you know? [speaker003:] How do you know. Well that's a picture you build up by doing things like appraisals, assessments, things like that using the other skills. Just something to give you some food for thought is there are two types of ability... know what they are?... I know. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] What? Yes.... but I don't know how to spell inherent, so I'm gonna write another word... innate ability. We've all got innate ability for something or other, you know what innate means? [speaker002:] Nimble. [speaker003:] Nimble yeah, you know like some people are really good at figure work, yeah and that's brilliant at it, they've got a natural facet for maths and things like that.... Footballers, most professional footballers have innate ability don't they as well as professional footballers. What would be the other one then, if that's what we've got inherently? What would be the second one? [speaker002:] What we learn. [speaker003:] What we learn.... Acquired, acquired ability.... Capacity to learn if you like.... Some people... cannot learn very well can they?... [speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] quite difficult to learn don't they? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You know you can spend hours with them one-to-one, you go through everything, you go through it over and over again. What do they do? You can think of something now can't you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] That smile on your face says it all. No matter what you do they just cannot seem to learn. They got you know, their mind is full up with what they've got, they've got no room for any improvement. We have to accept that in life don't we? We ourselves are the same... it might one subject area, we might have to get down to take on loads of different things. In other areas we find it very difficult to learn. I find it very difficult to be er to learn Morris Dancing! Why do you think that is? [speaker002:] Cos you can't dance? [speaker003:] I can't dance basically no. I got no, I've got no innate ability and if you try to teach me, would it be any use? [whispering] just a stupid example []. Other things to think about when you're identifying training... alright... a handout for you... identifying training needs... at this stage just to make sure that ya the are still out. Get a bit of a up.... all this today. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] A little exercise for you to finish up with, not finish up this bit. Five minutes. Individual exercise, doesn't have to be... I'm sorry I'm really how do you feel left out? [speaker002:] Left out, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, that's quite right see, thing to avoid for training don't leave anyone out. Methods you are currently using for identifying training needs. Methods put to practice to... enhance training. Five minutes, before you start it though now that it might not apply to you, you might not have control over training, and perhaps down the left hand side you put well what methods do they use and you might put the other side then you go back and suggest to your boss will you alright. Five minutes on that one.... Right your five minutes is up.... Something crossed very bad time... looking at that brief picture, who wouldn't you invite to a group training session on... skill six?... It just crossed my mind another thing about this matrix here is you wouldn't bring a those two people would you? Unless they like their training. One of the big dangers of group training is that if the first one hasn't got the skills skills is that he might not get anything out of it. that's like one-to-one training isn't it? Is there anybody you know that, that also have got the knowledge but they find it difficult? You might think you know [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] think back to a few years back when I was in training about a job and you might still think it now, but I couldn't give, put ideas over to somebody on one-to-one training.... You know I've been I wouldn't bother showing them some that worked, I'll always pick the case that had some hiccup on it, so the basic skill you were trying to show them never worked out, you know what I mean and it's well don't worry about that, if it was a normal case [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] you know they sit there going what is a normal case, this is a normal case I've never seen anything else before. You might think about not inviting Mr C and Mrs D.... You might think about skill level two. Why might you invite Mrs B? might have Mrs B why we're doing a group get the whole team. Sometimes it's worth having a word before you announce training to Mrs B say look, your role in this will be... support me and have you got any ideas etcetera that we can talk to. Involve people on a positive side. The other people that have been there a long time know it all and what they, what you say can you help me. put it together on a training session on this and they rely on you and perhaps talk through to the session and say look that when I say this sort of thing, will you be the person that demonstrates or gives me answer you know, this sort of thing. Get them involved pro-actively as opposed to letting them sit there and snide at you cos they know more about it than you do. It's a thought that crossed my mind to help you as a trainer. What we done in that brief session is giving you an overview of identifying training needs and you can go to, I have seen books written identifying training needs and I have read books that thick... and they so many ideas there give you a starter. Say if we don't get it right at the beginning what we get out at the end can be very successful. I think the first stage process is to decide who needs training and what they need to know.... Er and it's about the methodical approach to training. I've got a bit of time on a Friday afternoon for some training, I think I'll pick Friday afternoon. I could have gone home. Whatever alright, so try and build early start.... We move on... If we identify our training needs and get them all specific it's gonna help us tremendously designing group training. No two ways about it... what we gonna do in this session is... list the main stages to consider when designing training. So really it's sort of the stages we look at, we're gonna design a training course or training session. steps that we look at........ And the way we're gonna test this session... is when you... give your training session on Wednesday. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] Laughing already. It isn't broadcast to the rest of the manor by the way they got close circuit T V. Er that's how we're gonna test this out, alright, see how you put the structure together. We're gonna look at training objectives [cough] see that a bit more, a bit more lively though. I mean look at training objectives. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Mm yes, a bit quiet on this side still, bit quiet on this one. We're gonna look at how we actually set about writing the training session... [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] oh look at that little eyebrow raise [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Now this is a good one, making the training session interesting. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Oh, I think I'm gonna forget about the fourth one preparing notes. Some of it's pretty self-explanatory. Dangerous thing to say we've already said, but preparing notes is lastly down to yourselves, I might give you a few tips on that. What I want to spend a few minutes on... again this is something we'll test tomorrow, right so I'm giving you, training's all about doing what do you think? What? Well yeah, er if I'm training you, so prepared it, but, what am I, what have I, what I have to do as a trainer make sure saying? Eh? That'll take up to about half five erm... what have I got to do to make sure you've understood what I'm saying? Question. Test. training presentation. In the presentation you get people up front and they talk at ya don't they for a few minutes, try and keep it interesting etcetera etcetera. With training what you're supposed to do all the time? Get feedback from your group to test out. This will build up obviously as we go through the course. The first, the first one that we're really gonna test you on is gonna be testing is tomorrow morning. So you're gonna have to do a little bit of work, just a tiny bit tonight on one area which is your training objective for your session tomorrow. It's the only bit we want you to amend for tomorrow. It's the only way we can test out what we said as having any affect. So we're looking at designing training and the first thing we're gonna need to design a training is what? [speaker002:] Subject. [speaker003:] Subject.... Great.... There's our subject... I'm gonna train them all on... what did I hear someone say? Preferred age... No? That doesn't mean er Einstein's theory of relativity.... The training to be really effective and to get round to... this bit monitoring evaluating training, I need a step. To tell them a subject what's the next step I've gotta do? minute you had me really worried thank you. We need some objectives.... What's an objective? [speaker002:] Something you want to get across.... [speaker003:] It is something you want to get across... an objective is? What did somebody say? [speaker002:] A goal. [speaker003:] A goal.... spe spe spe spe spe spe it's specific an objective should be specific. What does that mean? [speaker002:] Quantifiable, definite. [speaker003:] How do you do that? and, and this voice comes out over here [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] What do you think specific I give up you started, you started so you can finish. [speaker002:] quantifiable. [speaker003:] It's quantifiable. Is that possible to do in training? Quantifiable, most of the training you do can you actually say at the end of this training session you will be able to Yeah? Ah, that's within the training, but if you gotta, if you're gonna train somebody or especially a group of people you've gotta have some objective that is specific. Remember at the beginning of this course what was our objectives? That we'll be able to... list [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] training cycle. Is that specific? What else is it? It's... it's er pneumonic. Have you ever heard of it? S specific, objective should be smart. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Or you could put magical? [speaker002:] Manageable. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I thought you said magical, I was gonna say well, no. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] ... [speaker003:] Spelt correctly, there should be an E there shouldn't there?... I'm not sure, No.. By the end of this course Ah right... achievable for who? Right, achievable for the trainer... limited to time aren't we? Could I train you in like Einstein's rela theory of relativity in an hour? It's not achievable... for me, cos achievable is for you as a trainer... Realistic? Who for? [speaker002:] The trainee. [speaker003:] Trainee, yes. We're getting there. Trainer, trainee... Have you wondered about the, thought about the...... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] ... So there's your objective, it's got to be specific and re-focused on an, on an activity and we should be able to measure training, not always easy is it? Something about skills... you know like telephone technique... you know how can you measure somebody's telephone technique?... Difficult... you might have certain standards they must achieve, now for example er... answer the telephones in three rings, answer your name and your department is that measurable? Yeah, yeah you gotta check this don't you the B T so you can measure them. Achievable for yourself, can you actually get those over... within the training session? Realistic for your trainees in terms of what, are they capable of absorbing them... and then time. is by the end of the week and you will be able to process form X Y Z by the end of this session you will be able to. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah? How many of your objectives are... have many of you got objectives for your training session tomorrow? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah, seriously. Who's got objectives? Are they smart?... Specific? Measurable? These ones you don't need to concentrate on too much but achievable realistic there's an amount of mixed audience tomorrow aren't we? And you just look down the route now and decide whether they're achievable or realistic. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] But they're certainly aren't they? Not within fifteen minutes you'll to but at the end of this session you will be able to process how to tell us the five main points five main benefits of a certain policy.... A few tips then on training objectives.... We went out bit like one of these er soap powder adverts... which of these two objectives would you alright given the option to, decide that that is a... a good training objective and which isn't so good? [speaker002:] The first one just understand it, you want to actually be able to do it. [speaker003:] Nine out of ten objectives holders... agreed with you on that. Is there anyone not anyone not understand?... Does anyone not understand? Which is the best training objective?... Training will be able to complete a G S F three six five four. [speaker002:] They've got to understand it as well [speaker003:] Right, how do you measure understanding? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Right, can you see the logic behind it? It's a finite, I'm not gonna spend too long on this. When I'm writing a course or even a session within the course, do you know what I spend most of my time writing the objective after a you know, you know but not after. Before I start I actually spend most of my time writing a behavioural measurable etcetera objective. The argument says in pure training terms is that that one is the best, because it actually says that training will be able to complete... the form. You can measure that can't you?... Can you? How do you measure that... that the trainee will understand? How do you measure understanding? haven't we. Why the fact that they can complete it. Perhaps it's that encompasses that, that is your objective, the second one the trainee will understand how to complete, what does your audience think? They don't have to do it. Because if you in training like one of the things that the big bonus on this course is the trainee will be able to run a training session. Does that focus your light on your coming on this training course? Yeah? We're all benefited competitiveness aren't we? We all wanna do as well as the next person sitting next to us don't we? True? driving courses when our training. So if we actually sent out training instructions the trainee will understand how to run a training session. Should we be so up about going on this course or so worried about it? You wouldn't would you? And I wouldn't be able to attest it. Cos you could turn round to me and say oh we didn't know we had to do it and you could use that as... what?... So as any guidelines here and there is a handout on this, so I won't, I won't tell you that cos there's too much on here. Where's a bit of paper?... In order to write objectives and as I say we're not gonna labour this point because it, it's easy. One of the key things to think about is action verbs.... So an example of words we should use are this example and there's a handout to write, to recite, to identify, to differentiate, to solve, to construct, to list, to compare, to controls. You can argue about some of them, I dunno, I don't wanna make a... big thing. They're all action verbs aren't they? At the end of this course you'll be able to write... an essay on [Elaine:] Einstein's theory of relativity. You'll be able to recite... Blake's, can't even remember Blake's er recite I don't know, somebody somebody who recited the poem. You will be able to identify... is that a good one? Identify, it's not so good is it that one? What about identify the five major steps towards writing a training course? It's more specific. You've gotta think about content but that's a generalization. Words that perhaps will help you are the words we should avoid using.... At the end of this session you will know four steps well what does that mean? Am I gonna test you on it? I'm not am I? How do I know that you know? By getting you to do something. You will understand, come on hands up who's going to understand their objective tomorrow?... I have, I've got an objective tomorrow it says understanding. Right, appreciate... how does, how does somebody appreciate the difference between key plan and a... golden key plan? Is there such a thing? No, well it doesn't matter, you've got the idea. Er how... how do you grasp a significance of?... You see what we're saying, it's, it's the words you use in your objective.... You will enjoy being here at this course, you will enjoy the training. You can't test that can you? I certainly wouldn't bother to test it or even dare to test it now. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Cos people sitting here thinking oh I thought it was gonna be a lot of fun this, it's quite difficult now. The I dunno where I got these from.... Really what the point I'm trying to make is training objectives are about doing something. People are do something at the end of the training and it focuses your mind to the trainer writing material. If you haven't got an objective that ends up with them doing something, or listing something, then you can't test your objectives.... We develop those off your training session tomorrow. Alright, so if you, don't worry if you, if you. I shall be available after half past five till about six o'clock if you wanna just I'll be in tomorrow morning at quarter past eight. It's a difficult thing, this has taken years to get objectives and every time the old.... Right... keep one of them and hand the rest out.... Does anyone want a quick break? Five minute tea break, breath of fresh air, haven't got time for a cigarette though, unless you're very, very quick.... I'll give you five minutes breath of fresh air, alright? Can I ask you though if you are gonna sneak out and smoke in the conservatory er not in that passageway along there, cos the smoke detectors [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I will not tell you who that secret smoker was.... You coping there alright John have had a long day? [John:] No, I'm fine. [speaker003:] Are you sure? [John:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Very much aware of it Still early Leeds Branch [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] We are very much aware of it. [speaker002:] Yeah.

[Martin:] Okay [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] questioning technique. Er... okay it's a little bit about questions we should ask so in summary then what sort of questions should we ask the group? Okay... What type of questions?... Just testing you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Remember? Over questions?... Which one shall we avoid then? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] If we should use... what sort of to vary the style of questioning? If you ask a question to the group who's intending who can tend to ask for it?... You just throw out a question.... Well let's see er what did you do last night? [speaker002:] No one answers [Martin:] Either no one answers or, or what? [speaker002:] The person you're looking at. [Martin:] The person you're looking at. So don't forget you can use by, it doesn't work with you lot, but it [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] You know I save a lot of time preparing that one okay. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Now what d'ya think the answer to that is? And this husky voice from the other side [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] which is another thing you have to look out for in training if you're asking. There's one or two things that are naturally more forthcoming aren't there? Yeah? The more readily answered questions, nothing wrong with it, it's great... but again er you fall into patterns don't you I'm sure you on training courses... we know that er one or two people are content to have the answer, so what will the rest of us do? There's nothing wrong, you know, but again it seems the nomination of people. Okay so ah the next question the remarks anyone looking across at him we put a bit of pressure on them and they take interest. So nomination of the person.... Post is the way of nomination and also... direct nomination.... [cough] A little tip for you I mean one of the things I do when I'm writing a training manual or something like that, I will actually write my open questions in really bold letters on the script. You know I, I, I mean I haven't written this one and it makes it quite difficult for me to see some of the questions, but I actually write I think that's the most important thing in training is asking questions er and I'll perhaps bring down some examples to show you. Exactly the easy things to forget about especially when time's against you... if you get to answer questions don't ask the questions, what's gonna happen? Don't understand. Don't be frightened of asking testing questions. Don't be frightened of what else? Performance of silence, give them a chance. What's the other side of questions, we talked very briefly about questions... to the group, what's the other thing we should be looking at? Yeah. The swine's asked you questions now.... What should you do with questions from the group? You genius, you should be here. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Why do that? [speaker002:] It's another way of [Martin:] Right. Yeah? Or d or else, what else? because again as adults we realize that if every we ask a question to the trainer you're asking questions to him and they keep answering them, what does it mean we can do as trainees? Switch off? sitting there with a row of people. What would happen then if that happened? you know fifteen minute monologue. We all knew the answer,. So good idea for questions from the group reflective at the group. So ask me a question.... how to train [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] How could you use a [Martin:] Mm [speaker002:] I dunno. [Martin:] How often do you think we should use training session? needs. Yeah. What would you use it on? [speaker002:] It depends on the situation [Martin:] Probably you're right yeah, I suspect. What would you do? It's all about technical stuff I mean a lot of you do technical training. Erm... you know people know the answers questions or they've got an idea material of your own experience you know a lot more than they do, but it's good technique to throw it back to the group. Alright when you get a question. Very useful technique for handling er people are trying to catch you out. You get you do that to people yourself training the easiest way to do it is group and if they don't know the answer you don't look such a pratt do you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Behind you... it is something that people don't know you don't know. I think you're honest it's the people respect you more if you say I'm sorry, I don't know the answer, I'll find out for you... and then you say tell you what John, can you write that up on that issues form pad or you know another bit of flipchart paper, we'll come back to that. Yeah? What you gotta do though? At some stage or other. [speaker002:] another group. [Martin:] The group, yeah, alright? Okay. Now I suspect that when you do your role in place... there won't be many questions for the group... alright? You'll be sitting there saying to me. [LAUGHTER] Er certainly not today anyway, but tomorrow you might find that erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] We'll ask you questions... purely because you know that you know yeah you know it's good to see how you get on with it etcetera yeah. [speaker002:] Do you... tell people when you questions like [Martin:] Well what do you think we should do [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] What? I know that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Another use you see of defective deflecting the question. I'm sorry that was very unfair. Do you forgive me? Yes. Good question. Well what do the others think, I mean yeah it's a sort of when should you let trainees answer your questions? [speaker002:] It depends on the question right to the end relevant as you go along. [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] I know it's early in the morning still.... Like Wonderwoman now in her get up. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Don't worry that bridge has fallen down. Okay, erm it depends on the session. Think about training though, if somebody's got a question to ask... what will about sort of something very early on... and they don't get the opportunity to answer you what might happen Yeah. Does that make sense? So really it would be I suspect the answer to your question you don't want to keep saying any questions but perhaps what's the answer. questions.... What. That's right. So where might you say... Okay look er what I'd like to do is... ask questions. If you've got a question, shout, shout out... to start you on and that start up encourages cos it so often happens yeah bop bop bop bop bop and somebody is still basically... looking for their rucksack while all the rest are up the, half way up the mountain. [speaker002:] danger of sort of like if you've gotta time like yeah sort of thing somebody else questions ten minutes. [Martin:] Brilliant. [speaker002:] Completely lost it haven't you. [Martin:] Yeah, brilliant, that's a, that's a good technique to take on bribe one of your colleagues to answer the questions [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] at least ten minutes er Totally unrelated, yeah. Now there's another thing questions what I'm saying is that's something to take away with you, or perhaps you won't get the chance er try now er. Certainly you should encourage people to answer questions.... Most people think that they're being stupid if they have to ask a question... they think that everyone else isn't probably thinking the same thing. Chances are they are... I think you owe it to your trainer to let them know.... So building new introductions... ask questions... by definition build in. I would suggest that you build in a few nice easy open questions at the beginning of the session. You know like you might be doing some technical training, they say what's... er... anyone know what motor insurance is? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Yeah. If you're running a training session on motor insurance, what might be a nice easy question to begin to encourage people to participate? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Right. okay let's expand that, yeah think about the beginning of the training session where you want to involve them. Are we all drivers here? Or how many of you are drivers?... Two of you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] [shouting] Hello []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] [shouting] Earth calling moon base one to eight []. How many of you are drivers?... Hurrah! What's our next question? [speaker002:] Have you got motor insurance? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] car. What er what could we ask then? Apart from have you got no, no, no, no, no cos that might under pressure. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Hey? Yeah, well that training session now what sort of cover have you got?... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] What sort of, what sort of cover have you got? What does that tell you as a trainer? [speaker002:] [cough] what sort of cover available. [Martin:] Yeah, so give you some knowledge about the level of your group wouldn't it and what does it give chance to do? Yeah, it gives you something nice and easy to tell you about, cos we've all got we all roughly know what sort of cover we've got. We can build up from there some of the er... some of the er exclusions or something yeah something like that you can develop it from that [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] yeah? See what I'm saying is ask a nice open question an easy one at the beginning that you know most people are bound to understand you get a lot of participation and then start building it up.... We will develop questioning techniques as we go through your training sessions. I think it's more when we actually see people doing it, but it's all, it's a nice idea to give you a little bit of basic just to think about, and again we won't be expecting this to be demonstrated to the on this afternoon's role page, you done all your preparations for that haven't you. Perhaps tomorrow. So you'd like to take one and pass it on to me Margaret. [speaker002:] [cough]... [cough]... [Martin:] So we've looked at asking question visuals... We've got involving trainees which, with which we talking about involving trainees... think about this side of it erm... I suppose this is one of the best ways to show... Training should be chunky... The idea is that... you put in your input yeah you talked around a subject and give you some guidelines, then... we get a chance to practise the participation.... So if you go back to the sort of where we gave it five or six headings yeah... or three to six headings... you should be aiming say well I'll input a bit of... information on that side of it and at the end of that little section I'll build in some practice in participation... and the participation can be any of those ones you've put in there on that list you gave us early on er practical allocations [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] brainstorming, testing, role playing and you get exercises, whatever. It's simply to test... cos if this side of the graph, if that one there is knowledge this one here is time. If you went from there to there without any practice or participation, since we've already said you might have left half your audience here [cough] and in actual fact so your practice and participation needs to be built in.... You do a little bit of input well I say a little bit, you do some input, practice and participation then build on that, okay? Let's move on to our next section. Bit more practice and participation, input, practice and participation.... We use visuals... give you something to focus on you can see everything's come out no wonder you. Look. [speaker002:] I can't really... [Martin:] This is my favourite slide of the whole course.... Some concentration.... What do you reckon the concentration span of most adults is? [speaker002:] nine [Martin:] Nine? Much less... [shouting] aha []!... It varies from person to person obviously [LAUGHTER] now know that Laura is talk to her ask a question after nine minutes erm absorbed to knowledge. This is for a straight lecture, you know sometimes people stand up to give you a lecture.... just talk at you... training and they reckon that after ten minutes... look at that tern! So after about thirty five minutes what are you actually taking in? Absolutely zilch. So why do we do lectures? Doesn't make any sense at all does it?... In training though you can still have the same problem erm... you know perhaps towards the end of the session you've probably seen it as and I, I'm guilty of it myself cos we're trying to rap on through it as quickly as possible so we get in ya way by six o'clock or that so we break all the rules late in the day... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] You sort of [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] And you as well. Right erm... all the rules people are tired etcetera so their rates of and knowledge is probably downhill anyway and then we talk about thirty five minutes just to speed up make sure we train them, we've given them all the input. What happens? You test it out the next morning... isn't it interesting you remembered as proof of the pudding. What did you remember? the training side, it's pretty well the objectives. What about the last we did yesterday actually designers and training, it's quite a, it's quite a struggle that... had a long day, been sitting here for a couple of hours I dunno it seems longer and there you are and you're actually struggling [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] You got the notes that's part of training as well, you can refer back to that, you struggle. So they reckon that after about ten minutes if people haven't been involved we haven't thrown out a question or something like that people start thinking about other things... and there's been actually a bit of er analytical research on this that shows that people think about three things... after about ten minutes they just switch off. Any ideas what this might mean? Yeah, the environment, yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Could be, very [speaker002:] they're hungry. [Martin:] Food, yeah. . That's quite a frightening thought really when I'm up front here. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] I'll leave you with that thought. I should have turned the tape recorder off for that shouldn't I! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Martin:] Tell you your mind does wander doesn't it, yeah? I mean mine does, but mine [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] mine does and I'm training, so you know what chance have you got. Alright, so there's a couple of ideas for you, including er getting the participation going, but don't give too much of the verbal. What are the other techniques you do, if you've do a bit of I mean as a sales trainer, I tend to walk around quite a lot... and talks about what? Yeah, but what does it do? What do you do? [speaker002:] You have to focus [Martin:] You follow me round don't you, people you know you see them he's gonna ask me a question. Also, that's what that's the training staff we know from experience that our moving targets are. Think about. So another thing we said on our list or your list what you put up here was visuals. Visuals are very important in terms of information recall... I modelled for this a couple of years ago.... What does that tell us? Yeah. They reckon that of the information our senses receive, seventy five percent of it is received visually.... Reading, yeah... you look round at people and then somebody comes rushing in through the door and you've never seen then before, what do you do?... You just weigh up and take so much information in through your eyes don't you, perhaps this person's in a panic or they look angry, yeah, this sort of stuff, do it very, very naturally. Seventy five percent is taken in through the eyes of which we're gonna recall about fifty percent, so fifty percent of that seventy five percent yeah? Through the years though more [LAUGHTER] erm through the years we actually only receive thirty percent of our... input... I suppose one of the examples are and then we only remember twenty percent of that thirteen percent again the danger of you know every remembers this [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] Well you've seen this before you remember it straight away.... Erm th the, the thing I think about is do you remember the Green Cross Code?... Tufty Club? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Yeah, things like that. What was, what is the Bre Green Cross Code? No you've gotta be a bit more precise though. Stop, look and listen yeah. Good, good.... So you remember what you're supposed to do. What was, what was the actual little rhyme? Something like that yeah. Can you remember I mean what they sa what the actual steps as it were when the, you know, when the kids stop look and listen when you do your look left again. concentrate yeah and also kids tend to listen. Most accidents happen as kids run out in the road without looking, alright. Because most kids nowadays are brought up with constant noise of traffic and so covering ears doesn't mean anything does it? because they're gonna get the information and absorb much more information none of it, none of any use but... so... don't get much information from. This is a very informative handout. You know that sort of thing you can [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] Right.... a little bit else about making it interesting... don't worry about yawning in my courses, at least it shows you're still alive. Can you share with Margaret please. Little again we'll develop these as practices more, they're more dynamic to develop when we actually watch and see your role plays. Presentation techniques, a few things here that might help you in terms of making it interesting as it were and the actual delivery of your training your posture, keep your posture erect, but relaxed... I don't really know what that means but er [LAUGHTER] er... stand up. What's the da what would show if you're standing up, what would demonstrate that you're not relaxed? Like this. No I know what you're doing that means you're relaxed when you're actually training. What else then? I [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Right.... Movement. Simply nervous trainers tend to stand in one spot,feeted feet rooted like a tree to the ground. Move around, engaging the groups are more involved. Again it's true though isn't it? People will stand there and they will clutch something, you see their knuckles are white you know and these sort of things erm or they'll have their notes you know here, and let's be honest about it yeah I can remember when I started training I think you know you used to cling to your notes a three feet flipchart, you know what can't you see? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Can't let go of this. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Anyway, and all this sort of stuff, so it's all about getting yourself prepared and knowing what you're gonna say etcetera etcetera. Does th anyone worry about using notes, it doesn't make you feel as though the trainers know what they're doing does it? If you see the trainers looking at their notes. What might make a difference though in terms of posture?... Okay so erm... I think it's also very important that we look at gestures. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Important gestures cannot be able too often and this restricts communication. We use gestures for emphasise normal conversation about what with our hands. gesture in front of a group exactly as if you were having an animated conversation with a friend nothing more, nothing less. Do you understand that? What would that demonstrate, posture, terrible isn't it? If you're talking about a subject that means gestures what should you be doing? Yes, course you should shouldn't you. So what's, what sort of gestures should we use when we're up front? Don't be rude! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Martin:] gestures, big ones, enough to you know you don't want to take off but open gestures, get your hands moving, doesn't matter does it. Er again it's a sort of... you know like that form that format don't worry about it if you do it, it's just that sometimes people will say it's the change of gesture. Get some movement out there we had a young, a young lady who er she name and she's up front in the cabinet you know every opportunity she had she was looking for round the room, but not sort of in the round the outside all the time and it's just that she wanted to be with a group of people all the time. It was great, it was you know so, so when training rooms are set up we used to sit here behind this barrier as it were, there's you, there's me..... So usually use gestures then it's got some things here, it's got some little matchstick men on the next page. the first one. [speaker002:] [cough] [Martin:] Keeping your hands in your pockets... What's the danger of your hands in your pockets? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] I've never heard it described that way before but there you go er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] You [LAUGHTER] jingle your change, dead right. Er again after you do that very same thing erm you know jingle your change and one of them he said that I reckon you got three pound eighty. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] He reckons he's got six pounds you know and it's just so distracting. Keep your hands out of your pocket handcuffed behind your back... Yeah and what, what, what do we think she means that you know what do you stuffy, yeah? [speaker002:] Pompous. [Martin:] Pompous, yeah does that?... Might do because it's not close gestures differ.... What are the others keeping your arm or keeping your arms crossed, or in a fig leaf position. If you would like to demonstrate a fig leaf position. Andy, well stand up [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] demonstrate a fig leaf position. [Andy:] I don't know... a fig leaf [Martin:] Cos I've no idea what it looks like [Andy:] I'm sure it's like this... or is it like that? [Martin:] No, no no that doesn't look a fig leaf, does that look like a fig leaf position to you? [speaker002:] Yeah [Martin:] Yeah it must be, yeah.... Quite interesting really. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] It's just that exaggeration because you know basically. Right or wringing your hands nervously. Eye contact, eye contact.... What's it mean by eye contact? What's good eye contact? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] It's good though isn't it? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Eye contact. definitely trying to avoid my eyes now there's a few eyes round here that look more like route maps of the M twenty five! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Erm,... eye contact if people avoid eye contact what's it mean? [speaker002:] They lack confidence. [Martin:] They lack confidence, simple as that and one of the things is that as a group you come in and you probably look at people when you and you look at the trainers and the idea is that early on people can do, can keep some eye contact gonna stare you out but just keeping your eyes and don't flit away and also when you're under pressure at this stage his eyes challenge you or something like that, then your eyes go down. So again it's just thinking about the eyes the eye the beginning. It's says rule of thumb that eye contact is one to three seconds per person... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Ah that's you look. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Marty Feldman does anyone remember Marty Feldman when one eye went this way and one eye went the other? that you know watching this happen.... Using your voice... your voice... I'm not gonna be too worried about this erm monotone... monotone yeah. I'm not too worried about it because erm... a, a lot of people natural accents, regional accents and that so others come over as quite monotone don't they sort of thing. It's a big problem, it's just that fluctuations you do, if you are aware you've got some. Some trainers go down [whispering] []. What else have we got talking too fast. Now suspect that this is something that most people fall into on their first few training sessions which is all to be about this er er er have you got any questions and most people I was gonna say good morning, but you got a paragraph down now and it's all about slowing down and you can speed up as you go through but it's certainly the opening slowing down. Slow down, slow yourself down in training sessions.... Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] We had we had a training session for ourselves like you know [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Right erm right what was I saying yeah erm slow down, what's the other way have a drink of water yeah. Breathing, it does help... you know sort of you know morning everyone [sigh]. Big gulps of it much easier.... answer the question nice and easy question slow it down.... Problems with volume on the last page erm I don't that affect most of you erm you won't be, you won't be talking to cavernous places will you? If, if you do any of your training it will tend to be rooms about this size.. So before I talk through some of those, cos I think that some of those er if we just gave you the handout you've gotta read it training group seems to be far more aware of things like your body language. Is that yours? [speaker002:] Er yeah. [Martin:] getting fed up Okay just to finish up now, because we're gonna be moving on in a minute. There's a couple of handouts here which I'm not gonna go into, but there again somebody might think about when you're running group training and there's some, there's some I dunno er points with a few heading samples, so I'm gonna take one and pass them on... take one pass them on... which I really no, no and there's one over there So you've got involving trainees we've done... humour we've touched upon, brainstorming we've done before. Testing role plays I've sent you a handout on that... exercises and there's a handout on that.... Practical applications... a thought about practical applications we need to build in practical applications don't we? Actually give people chance to try what we've been talking about. Any thoughts about that? What should we be doing with practical applications?... [speaker002:] Past experience. [Martin:] Yeah, past experience to find out the level they're at at the moment. Anything else? Oh no, it's incredible. Again on this very course a while back it was only three people in the group in the week that I was watching and the guy who was running the session had, had worked the equation wrongly on the rating or whatever and the other two, never seen him before in their lives were saying that's wrong and he started getting really annoyed. it was really funny group after it was so funny er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] with his permission he thought it was funny he saw the funny side of it as well, but they had this big argument for five minutes cos he thought what he'd done was right and he said [whispering] Jesus, I've been using this [] for three years for the training in the branch er it makes you wonder doesn't it erm... but if you're gonna do practical applications you've gotta give people relevant examples... perhaps you start off basics with an example that is correct and then you start building on that don't you... then you start giving them the deviations and all this sort of stuff. Don't deal with deviations first cos they'll never learn... but build in lots of applications... either by questions or by actual exercise.... Last thing just briefing cos this is designing the training session is your notes. What sort of notes... what sort of things are you gonna do... within your running of training sessions for a group training session or it could be one-to-one doesn't really matter. What are the sort of things you need to think about when you're putting in notes together... script or.... Right, that's a good idea... bullet points in large print.... Cos you know all the content don't you? A lot of the training you do you probably only need to write bullet points. What might you write under your bullet point?... It's just the yeah you've got your main point and there might be one two three four things a bit more information, yeah. So that you don't deviate or forget things.... What other things might you do in your notes? [speaker002:] Think of some questions to ask. [Martin:] Yeah, that's good, good. So you actually write down questions... so much going on you can't be expected to remember everything and if you've got just you know sort of questions written down the page... like what is your name, it's simple as that... it gets you to do, what? Involves the trainee.... What else might you do? Bullet points, questions. Okay, so... er what have we got there erm... use supports... use of support yeah... material... another thing you might think about is time. Time... Basically that's it, how you do it is up to you, the danger of a, a script of a basic script is what? Right, yeah you're stuck to it aren't you and if you move away from it, where are you, if you gotta go back to it, you might have done this for t for today, don't worry but you know, but it's not, we're not gonna mark you down or anything like that, the danger of is what? It's very and you're gonna just sat down reading it. And some of the other things what about you know erm. Chances are you're not gonna use it or or not use it. You write all this screed down and then you never look at it. I'll give you examples perhaps of... none, none of these I must admit I, I don't, I don't think, they're not my style I much more... my page my training tend to have just two or three points on it... rubber stamps on the side flipchart all this sort of stuff big question. Er it's just a thought to say well if I, if, if this training is so important I will use it over and over again, it makes sense to... save the preparation time four or five months down the line by having a script... and now only you can up with your examples.... I'll just check what samples there is... this would be more of er this one that's coming over now is entirely the session keep it flowing, there's your content and your method of the syndicate O H P, flipchart. So you're restricting yourself. That might be having and again we're not looking for you to do these or follow these patterns for tomorrow, you do whatever you feel comfortable, yeah.... There's a blank page it's okay I might be able to use that er as a structure for more for when you've gotta run training courses at a lot of the time... and sample three is just another side that's erm that one of sample two is landscape goes across the page this is. What? This example. ... I've been filling time wherever I am. Haven't I team? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Martin:] What have we been talking about football last night... er just an example of erm some of the scripts that we use down here. You see look here's a script all typed out. You know a lot probably to do this. You see there's not much on the page you know just some bullet points.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] That wasn't it What [LAUGHTER]... [Martin:] They're being rude, they're being really rude. [speaker002:] Are they? [Martin:] no chance [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] out of all that stuff there what's the most important things? ... I know if I say that Notes are really important... Alright.... In summary while we're waiting for our to come back, if she is coming back we don't know do we. Designing training we started yesterday [cough] we are... finishing the session now so in your opinion what are the most important things we should do first when designing training? Right measuring, understanding. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [Martin:] You've thought of another element there which I'm gonna write down, feedback.... When do we want feedback? Stages. So we want stages don't we?... How should we design our training in terms of stages? Come and draw it, come and draw up... and show us. [speaker002:] Draw it? [Martin:] Yeah.... Come and show us how you do it... I'll give you a red pen... Do you remember that earlier we said participation... [speaker002:] The [Martin:] That'll do for me. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Martin:] You, oh no, yeah, it's alright yeah alright [speaker002:] ... [Martin:] [clapping by ps3kn] [speaker002:] [clapping by ps3kn] Thank you. [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Not so bad is it? So input and then what? Participation, participation.... repeat the process... stages. Anything else we should think about... designing training? [speaker002:] ... [Martin:] . summary at the end of the session. ... Alright, let's... we've looked at design of training as the first step you know identifying training needs and then design. On the areas that we might like to think about design and also delivering training is the different ways people learn and to do that go through learning styles. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] laugh. much done. [speaker002:] Do we need that questionnaire cos erm [speaker004:] Yes [speaker002:] cos certain members tend [speaker004:] Oh would you like to go and get your questionnaire those that haven't got them. [speaker002:] That's me. Well I've got [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Has anyone had an actual break or? Have you scored scored more [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah, great. [speaker004:] Yeah. Have you, have you done it? [speaker002:] Yeah I've done it, but I didn't bring it. [speaker004:] Oh right.... You've all got yours questionnaires yet.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] ... [speaker004:] You didn't last time did you? do something this week lunch today... Have you got it? [speaker002:] I just, I just honest to God I hadn't realized at all the guy was sort of and says er oh it's probably I said no I'm sure I was really cheesed. It was awful he said go and get it it'll be in there and I just went er and I could see it all. [LAUGHTER] A nightmare... and we had to actually ring the emergency number and in an emergency ring this number Yeah she rang it and this bell started going [LAUGHTER] Oh no. ... [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Have you all scored your questionnaires? Yep.... and you've Oh yeah, we've got the analysis we've got the questionnaires... Okay what we're gonna look at now is we gonna look at the work of Honey and Munnford and what Honey and Munnford spent a lot of time researching was people's learning sides... and they spent a lot of research and what they found out is that... there are four different learning sides and we all learn in different ways.... So far Martin's taken you through how to put together a logical and effective training session. What we also need to think about is we learn in one way, but our delegates may actually learn in a slightly different way.... in a minute so what we're gonna have a look at is we're gonna have a look your identified preferred learning side and the questionnaire will actually help you do that.... I'll tell you what Honey and Munnford actually found and what their findings were, we'll also think about some more practical applications that if people learn in different ways, what impact does this have on the trainers.... It does have some impact... I'm sure that you've been the training session and you thought it's really good, really got a lot out of it and you're quite surprised to see someone sitting next to you didn't like that much at all, you thought... hmm wonder why that is because I found the content really interesting and it could have been the content matter didn't really sort of do anything for the people, it could have been the way it was put together, put over and the way it was actually structured. I'm sure you've also experienced sessions you thought something somebody's delivered in one session and found it really interesting you've got a lot from it, and yet somebody else comes into the same subject matter and you think that you know... wasn't very interesting didn't, you know, didn't, I didn't really wanting to learn. The key reasons before that is that they've actually put the across in the way that's not totally compatible with learning side. What I'd like to do to start with is I'd like to actually put the scores up, put your scores up on the charts and then we'll look at what, what exactly they mean, what does A stand for but what does it all mean. So if you put the scores up first then we'll do some, have some discussion about what they mean. So Margaret if we start with you. [Margaret:] Eight fourteen six six. [speaker004:] Eight fourteen six six. Thank you. Mark? [Mark:] Fifteen sixteen nine sixteen. [speaker004:] Okay, John? [John:] Twelve [clears throat] sixteen thirteen seventeen [speaker004:] Andy? [Andy:] Five sixteen thirteen thirteen. [speaker004:] Marie? [Marie:] Nine fifteen twelve thirteen. [speaker004:] Nora? [Nora:] Five fourteen nine twelve. [speaker002:] Sixteen two three [speaker004:] Two three and nine? [speaker002:] Yeah Two nineteen ten and thirteen [speaker004:] We've got quite a variety here haven't we?... Right what I'll do now is I'll introduce what means and then we'll go back and... think abut the impact that they have on training. So, and I've got a handout on this. If we go to the first style of A this is an activist and some of you have got high scores here we've got sixteen fifteen and twelve these are, these are hard activist. What Honey and Munnford found is that people learn in basically four ways, the first of which is... is the activist. Now what they're saying is that, what they said is activist action learn best... when they get the opportunity to experience new sort of... problems, situations, opportunities when they're doing something quite new... when they're sort of involved in very much you know here and now activities when they're sort of like business games, exercises, role plays, team tasks that they can sort of get you know really get involved with themselves then there's lots of action and they're quite short and sharp, so can move on to something else.... Activists also like being thrown in the deep end... they quite like the challenge of being thrown in and sink or swim and learn from the experience, rather than actually talking about too much and then a little bit of action later.... Activists like things which involve other people as well so they like team work, they like team activities, they like discussion groups... they enjoy the sort of bouncing ideas off other people. Activists also like... they love the opportunity in training to have a go... but they do like getting involved, they like a action. They also like this sort of excitement and you know when things chop and change and there's sort of erm almost like a crisis situation and lots of excitement, lots of activity, activists actually thrive on that, they like that sort of challenge... that stimulates their learning.... They also like things which are quite so if the activity involving chairing a meeting, doing a role play, doing a presentation... although they may be nervous they actually enjoy that, they find they gain a lot from that... and they also like activities where to an extent there's a freedom from constraints, policy... structures, they don't like to feel bound... because if you think about it a lot of are actually exploring... deep end situations trying new things out, they don't like to feel that constrained. So that's the activist. A couple of you have got high marks John and you've got high activist, you're higher than the others, how do you feel about that? [speaker002:] Yeah it's pretty [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I'm not so sure about liking the presentations though. [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Oh. Well like you say you feel nervous about it at first but once you do it, you've got. So there are th that side of learning there are people who like to have a go who want action. You quite like erm learning from, from experience. When I was working at British Airways we used to do a lot of technical training and erm it was sort of on er airline regulation, stuff like that and you could always tell the activists cos they didn't really want to all they wanted to do was to get on the computers and actually trying out things out themselves, they piece of furniture the activists don't want to read the instructions, they want to start putting it together and then they'd learn from actually putting it together rather than them reading the instructions and regulation training you could always tell the activist cos they sort of always like chopping every bit, they just want to... they just want to get on the computers and start inputting numbers and they'll actually learn, they, they prefer to do that and then somebody can come round and help them out when they get into trouble rather than some of the other which perhaps like to more up front and that's the activist.... Now we move on to the reflector and... Irene in particular has got a very high a lot of the others.... Quite high. So what's the reflector all about? Well as a the reflector is... they actually learn from situations where they get the opportunity to sit back to watch to think about what's being said so they digest in information for themselves.... situation they sort of they sit back they think about and assimilate it. They also like activities as well reflectors, where they can stand back and watch and listen to others as well and sometimes within a group activity they actually like to pull back and listen to what others are saying. It doesn't mean to say they don't like participating, but they'd like to you know see what the group view is before they put in their own views so they're analyzing, thinking. A lot of people with high reflector scores like to think before they act. They assimilate, they analyze, they consider and then they make a decision or act on things. It's similarly with similar to the situation for training... while the activist would like to get straight into a role of play, the reflector wants to stand back think about it, think about how they're going to, what they're going to do etcetera before they actually participate or get involved. Activists actually enjoy activities within training while they can carry out some research where they can analyze and investigate situations. The things like a case study where you have to gather lots of information and analyze it, I mean that's just what the reflectors like, cos they want to feel that there's you know they th... working is not just it's actually working on some fact. They also enjoy reviewing experiences so when you've done a role play, the reflector will actually get a lot out of doing feedback, standing back and analyzing what did I do... well, what did I do less well and they actually learn a lot from that as well the role play. They love things which involve producing reports analysis... reflectors also like... exchanging views with others, they like to think, analyze, formulate an opinion and then have the opportunity to discuss with others. Reflectors like reaching decisions in their own time... and on training courses they actually like to feel that they consider the situation... and they don't want feel sort of too rushed... before they act. What I'd like say with these guys there's no right or wrong style, there's no good or bad, we're all different erm... and we f we're all a combination of each as well. Reflector Irene, you've got the highest there... what are your views on that? [Martin:] And you can always tell reflectors in training, cos sometimes you'll think what's happening, nobody else wants participation, reflectors will actually stand back and think well what did they ask for, what do I talk about then and it's always like a delayed response you get a lot of reflectors and we had one course once and we had all high reflector scores and that actually told us a lot about participation cos people weren't disguising any they were thinking about it coming in had time to consider an opinion... so that's a reflector. The next one is the theorist and the highest that we've got here are John and Andy and thirteen.... Marie, you, you're popular on highest scores on reflector as well that I mean you what did you think about that? [Marie:] ... [speaker004:] The er reflector and the activist actually. So the theorist... so the theorists actually best from activities where something can actually give them a system, a model or a theory or a concept so we've got Andy and John and it was quite interesting Andy when you were saying well whose work is this because you not really behind so you, you actually scored thirteen on that one. If you can sort of say well... that has been proven, this is the research, this is the system, this is the model, theorists actually enjoy that because they think well this isn't just somebody's gut reaction, this is something that somebody spends a long time actually thinking about it considering.... They actually like well argued a sort of elegant prototype concept... so if you're gonna present a model theory, they like it sort of well thought through, rather than a half-baked... airy-fairy model.... Theorists are very stimulated by sort of quite interesting and new ideas of concept... because ultimately a lot of theorists like sort of to be intellectually challenged... they like things that they need to... really sort of stretch their minds.... Theorists love sort of debating concepts and arguments... they don't want to, to, won't accept them at face value, they'll actually challenge them and enjoy the rationale, enjoy discussing them.... They will question.... We have some people on training courses who could tell that they're quite theorists cos question of challenge... if you actually put forward some ideas they'll, they'll question them, not in a negative way, but they just want to know well where have these come from and why and why is this and on your training courses what theorists will do is if you're actually putting together forward and processing procedures that C U follow, they'll question why... they won't just accept it, they'll actually question it, not in the negative way but they'll want to understand it.... As we said they like being stretched intellectually so if you can put forward some concept theories they, they actually enjoy that. They like a clear structure, they're logical, they're analytical and they want things to be delivered in such a way. They like analyzing and they like sort of... practising or getting involved with complex things... sort of complex piece of work... very, they're really happy in the training session to get involved whereas some people if you put something very hard, they'll actually back away from it won't they cos they think well this is new, I don't really understand this, whereas theorists will ac they actually enjoy... they enjoy the stretch they enjoy the challenge.... Those two John and Andy you were the highest on that John what are your views on that? Yeah. Andy? Yeah. I'm actually, I'm quite high on as theorist as well and I like to write everything out in full and I clear structures and if I go to training sessions and they're all over the place, it's such a in about five minutes and I have to say hang on a minute it might not be structured in the way that you like it but you can actually learn from it.... And the last one is the pragmatist... erm... we've got Mark, John and Marie who have come out quite high on the on the... The pragmatist th the title that you suggest what the situations you actually learn best from and pragmatists like training its practical [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker004:] job if there's gonna be an exercise or a they like it to be a real-life practical situation, almost like a simulation of the job... rather than something that's er... for example if you were to do a case study, pragmatists would like it be in an insurance-related case study and it could be related to their job very. If you were going to say a travel industry case study and insurance industry prefer it to be quite practical.... They like... training which they can actually apply, that has practical applications so say if you're thinking of something like erm motivation styles or something like that, if you were gonna introduce Lounslow I dunno at the motivation there are loads of them one's Lounslow one's Hertzberg... if you were introducing our training to a pragmatist what would be essential is you could actually show the practical application of it, if you just put forward C V and no practical application the pragmatist would say well this is all very well in theory, but how can I apply it to my job and if they can't they think well what's the value of this. They actually involve like... participating in training that they can actually try out the techniques and they and they can try out the techniques in the training and on the job as well.... They like things... satisfy the pragmatist if you can give them something that they can put in practice straight away o on the job in their job.... If you said well you can't apply this time, you may be able to in three years time but pragmatists they like something that they can take away and then put into practice straight away and they can try out. They like training that's practical and they're dealing with real problems.... Real problems, problems that they're currently facing or issues that the company's facing, they like real problems... activate things.... Although some people are quite happy to just because it's training i it they're quite happy if it's a hypothetical situation cos they think well I can actually learn from this, I can, I know what the concept structure is, I can learn from it. The pragmatist wants it to be... they want the structure they also want it to apply you know to real-life stuff, they're not into hypothetical... made-up situations.... There are valuation forms they usually show the all very well much more to erm give away of, of er their learning styles.... Right... so those are the four styles.... What... what we mustn't do with Honey and Munnford is just take things at face value because what Honey and Munnford did is they actually carried out interviews with a thousand people... and what they decided that I mean they carried out interviews with er lots of people thousand and they had a general study where they carried out interviews with a thousand people and what they said was that... in particular with the reflector a l some, some scores are naturally higher than others... and that what we can't do is just sort of look at these and say well this is the highest score, therefore I'm much more of a, of a reflector than I have of, I am of the other three, all we actually need to do is compare our scores against the general norms. If I show you the general norms it makes a lot more sense.... For example if you've got between thirteen and twenty for an activist that's a very strong preference, however for a reflector... a very strong preference is eighteen to twenty, because by nature most of us tend, you know most of us tend to stand back and think... so what we actually need, what we wh what we can see is that when we compare our scores against the general norms... it's a much more accurate picture of our learning style. So what we can see for the activist... nought to three is a very low preference... so Irene has come out as a, a very low preference on that, four to six is a low preference so that's... seven to ten is the sort of average... so that one's the average, that one [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker004:] eleven to twelve is a strong preference... so John's come out as strong and thirteen to twenty is a very strong preference, so that's Mark and Lou, you've actually come out as very strong.... The reflectors, the mean here is at thirteen the average is thirteen... they're all slightly higher, so eighteen to twenty... would be a very strong... whereas the others have just come out fifteen to seventeen which is strong, you've actually come out fairly strong there, because the highest score for anything is twenty. That, that, that is high, but then again is very high the activist we don't, on the courses, we don't see many activists coming out as high as fifteen or sixteen, they are.... The theorist is quite in line really with the reflector the average there is about twelve and a half. So sixteen to twenty would be the very strong on that, no one 's actually, no one 's actually got this. Fourteen to fifteen is strong... no one 's got that. Eleven to twelve, so you're really sort of moderate preference, it's not a, it's not a strong preference a moderate preference... and then the pragmatist... again that's quite high... very strong preference is seventeen to twenty and again... John... edge of that.... What, what we need to do we've got a handout for you on this so you can spend more time looking at yourself, or what you need to do is you need to compare your scores against those rather than just take the highest one.... Right for the pragmatists in the group, we want to do something practical learn from that. Erm... so what does that tell us about training, from the training when we're training others? [speaker002:] ... [speaker004:] And what's the sort of plus or the dangers on that? Yeah.... So what do you need to do? [speaker002:] ... [speaker004:] And that's why this is very interesting for you because you now know what your preference is and what you need to think about is that I may be a very high reflector, but I can see there's, there's Lou in particular was a very strong activist and when I put them together training, I need to ensure that it's not the way I like to learn, it is a balanced approach... others can also gain, I need to ensure that others gain from this. What else is it that it tells ya? How can we achieve a balance... What's the ideal balance Yeah. Yeah.... Yeah. We need to get a combination of all four. So how could we get a combination of all four? [speaker002:] Using a practical example. [speaker004:] Yeah.... Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] ... [speaker004:] Yeah.... There's one other [speaker002:] ... [speaker004:] To get the ideal session, that's what we need, we need a... we need an exercise, we need participation and Martin was saying that earlier, that essential anyway cos people learn best by doing... well we need activity and we need to make it practical to satisfy the pragmatist to real-life issues, problems, things that on the job. We need the theory concept behind the method and we need to build in that people can think, digest, analyze, because as we've seen by nature most of us have higher reflector scores than we do the pragmatist and the reflector are higher than the theorists and the activists... all have a tendency.... Right... just one last thing that we... need to think about is that as I said with the with the learning styles, there's no right or wrong [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker004:] you know it doesn't mean to say that you're wrong because you like to have a go or jump in and you're not wrong if you like to have time to spend, there are no right or wrong styles and also what we can't associate the styles with, which people try to do sometimes is they try and identify the introverts and extroverts.... I mean you can't do that... there is no correlation between... you can't say that all the activists are extroverts... cos are actually quite about the way they... but they do like to have a go and it doesn't say all the reflectors cos they're sitting back and thinking and they're actually quiet reflectors. Right, so that's all we want to look at with regards learning styles... I think the key thing to remember... is that... we mustn't fall into the trap, because it's our learning style if we actually put together our training which reflects our style. So as you said the danger is that it's not balanced for our delegates... and the ideal is that we want the combination of all four.... So if you think back now at times when you've done a training session and you thought I can't understand why that didn't work, you know I worked really hard... this may actually reveal something to you... you did work really hard at it and you put it together just the way that you would like to receive it, but it's not it just the way the delegates would actually have liked to have seen it done.... and that's why when we experience different people's training... you get different sort of... views and feelings from it... because their learning style is actually... pushing through sometimes... sometimes it suits us and sometimes it doesn't.... So if you can get the balance and you can get all four... also what's interesting as well is if you've got a very low score at something, it may be they think well... perhaps I need to develop that, if I don't apparently learn a lot from getting and having a go, perhaps I'd actually learn more if I can develop that more enjoyment from that and I can see the benefit from it. [speaker002:] Is it possible to develop? [speaker004:] No no, there are natural, we always have a strong preference for something but we can actually develop them, just like management style we have a strong preference for, for one style but it is something that we can learn... can get more and try and rationale sort of like theoretical we can try and rationalize what's perhaps happening is that in situations when we're not gaining a lot and it could be that it's because it's had a lot of activity and we can actually gain more from it we can rationalize it and analyze it.... Because if we can enjoy, if we can become more balanced actually balance our training doesn't it?... I know when I first came into training I was really high... on er... [speaker002:] Drugs! [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Drugs, yeah! Would of made the job a lot easier [LAUGHTER] might have been high on drugs. I was actually quite low on the activists and higher on these three... but I managed to wonder sometimes where I worked ever so hard on a session I can't really can't understand you know why it's not going very well and I thought well... when I then watched other people do something that had a lot of action I thought well why did they like that more and I never I didn't know... but I've actually learnt that you have to put activities in, cos you, you know you do get people with a very strong activist preference. [speaker002:] Do you find people [speaker004:] Erm... you may think that. There will be some who have a strong preference th they, they like activity erm and what you can actually do if you're very interested in looking, what Honey and Munnford have done is they've actually taken

[speaker001:] Has anybody come across those terms assertive aggressive and passive? Yeah. A lot of training goes on about assertiveness training and maybe the word has got around assertiveness is good and everything else isn't so good. I think maybe that's right on some occasions, but the thing about this is that very much depends where we are and what situation we're in and we may actually choose to use one of the other types of behaviour. What sort of situation might you choose to use that type of heading? Possibly, yes er a situation there where you might actually well you tell me what you think, so it's actually declining, backing off, yeah? So maybe we'd use it in that situation. Or working within a bank and somebody runs in with a shotgun, what sort of behaviour then? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] there aren't too many people who actually go aggressive and wrestle the gunman to the ground, yeah? There may be the odd one or two, but the risk he's making his head blown off by doing it, so against most of us will say here you are take my money and run passive behaviour. What about aggressive behaviour then, what choose to use that? rob a bank aggressive behaviour yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Why not organization? [speaker002:] When all else fails really. [speaker001:] Right I mean it could be as a matter of a last resort yeah. Maybe he's a bit cranky about the scale so it may be a conscious decision that goes without. [speaker002:] he's feeling aggressive [speaker001:] Right, yes it's quite often aggressive people passive people who like maybe having passive people around and just needs somebody to walk over to shout at and behaving in an aggressive way, so maybe we have to go aggressive when we deal with an aggressive person. So perhaps the first thing about that continuum is that none of them are right or wrong we all dis-represent the ways of behaving and it's very much a personal choice which one will use at one stage. right or wrong. The to say anything is that we all have natural places where we feel comfortable, we all have particular styles where it's easier to eat it's more comfortable, perhaps is an example and very comfortable just staying where we are being passive it's nothing particularly prognostic about that for us. So we actually choose to be wherever we want to be, it's very much a personal choice.... The third thing about that is that it represents us saying continuum. Now we've got very much a personal perspective and we see things through our own eyes so... somebody may see somebody behaving and regard that as an assertive behaviour, somebody else may actually see that as aggressive... it's very much a personal view of actually where we see the people lying and also indeed the people who prefer to deal with them. Maybe these people here prefer to deal with aggressive people or indeed passive because you can completely walk over them... don't like dealing with anybody they're totally passive on the far end of the scale passive. So we all have personal preferences with people who we like to deal with and indeed how we see people as well.... So got to continue on there on behaviours... recognize people that you see around about recognize to be aggressive, some as assertive some as passive. What are some of the clues if you like that tell us if people behave in an assertive, aggressive, passive way what are some of the other clues take that away from us? Right [clears throat] body languages.... A very good example... on... sort of the clues some behaviours that make us say yeah it's aggressive, passive, assertive. Tone of voice certainly.... Anything else about the voice? Yeah, volume.... Voice, tone, volume, what else?... What other sort of visible symptoms is behaviour? Right I mean,part partly related to body language, but it things like proximity Yeah, absolutely yeah... why is it people who use the aggressive words are gonna be totally different from the words individual passive behaviour. So there are a host of clues there if you like about the sort of things that people will actually do and these are all underlaid by an attitude. If you've got a slightly different attitude also an attitude.... Okay what I'd like to do is get you to work in three syndicates looking at body language, voice tone, words, proximity, attitude, voice volume but what we'd like to do is actually work in a syndicate that is out of style, out of keeping in your normal style. So for example if you're normally aggressive, we'd actually like you to go with a syndicate that's passive and work passive. If you're normally passive, we'd like you to work in a syndicate that will be aggressive. Okay? Now we're obviously even split two in each three so aggressive group... So remember want it to work in a group that a normal style so volunteers for groups? Anybody else? [speaker002:] I'll be aggressive. aggressive. [speaker001:] Okay [speaker002:] assertive. [speaker001:] passive. [speaker002:] assertive. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [] well I dunno maybe I was gonna say is because what we'd like you to do in your feedback is actually give you a feedback using the style that you were holding back on. So for example the group who are doing the aggressive... [LAUGHTER] I don't say that until after. Report back about being aggressive and we'd like you to report back modelling an aggressive style, yeah? Assertive group report back modelling an assertive style and the passive group you report back modelling a passive style of [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] If he can actually think about getting up yeah, okay? So if you would like to prepare yourself responses and ready for a preparation, not preparation, presentation erm it's coming to half past nine give you twenty minutes on that preparation, so if we can be back ten to ten this group please. [speaker002:] Can you just flip the thing [speaker001:] Yeah, sure. So it's body language, tone, volume and voice, things like proximity the words they might use and also what's the underlying attitude that fires the behaviour you're looking at.... In terms you wanna word hay loft, conservatory. [speaker002:] subject matters. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now I'm being totally passive about that one. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] ... [speaker001:] How you getting on? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Done? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah?. Done? Looking good.... Okay now at this stage you don't normally have to ask for volunteers for the first group because it usually sort of role then off they go. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So guess who's gonna go first. [speaker002:] Morning aggressive. [cough] So we don't need to go through this. Now you're gonna get on and read it and you can report back in ten minutes and I don't want any questions. Right. [LAUGHTER] Ah oh, oh, shame. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] presentation.... [LAUGHTER] Short and sweet. [speaker002:] Think he got the message. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Did you get the message... other groups? [speaker002:] Certainly knew which one they were doing. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right []... okay... so what you say about it? Body language, expressive, eye contact, talking at them and power striding, what's power striding? [speaker002:] Sort of power striding up and down, walking up and down and bouncing almost. [speaker001:] Yeah, okay. So it's very much body language that is actually directive, sort of right up people's noses quite often very, very close to people yeah? Er voice tone, voice certainly loud, short sharp phrases er little chance of pauses. [speaker002:] Raised tone. [speaker001:] Yeah. Likely to be aggressive, likely to be, certainly likely too loud. Yeah... Think about domestic silence. What's wrong? Nothing. So they sit there and you think there's nothing being said but the atmosphere is very much full of aggression. Frequently is loud, but sometimes absolutely the complete opposite, silence can be actually very aggressive particularly with somebody you don't normally get that silence from, you know they're normally warm, pleasant individuals and all of a sudden silent and that's actively aggressive as well. Certainly a word you must, you will, I imposing language. Positive and threatening conversation. I'm sorry I can't read that. Yeah so it's likely to wanna be out on their own. Competent, controversial. Okay? What's the underlying philosophy behind that type of behaviour aggressive behaviour? What's really just sort of quick... summary of all of that? [speaker002:] lack of self-confidence. [speaker001:] Possibly, I mean aggression could be a response to lack of self-confidence you're quite right. If you're lacking in self- confidence you may, don't want, you don't wanna get other people's views and meekness impose them. So perhaps the underlying philosophy is... I win... you lose... yeah? me, I'm gonna win and gonna be loud and be aggressive, I'm gonna stand over you, I'm gonna stand very close to you, I'm gonna point my finger at ya, I'm gonna stare at you. It's all about I win, you lose, I need to beat you, I'm gonna stamp on you, I'm gonna make sure they actually beat you. So that's the underlying philosophy of aggressive, it's gonna be I win you lose. Okay, thank you aggressive group.... Who's gonna come next? Right [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] this is gonna do. Right the er body language voice tone, volume social dominance the words and attitude [speaker001:] Thanks. Again it comes this, but assertive behaviour body language etcetera. [speaker002:] It's very much middle-of-the-road aggressive person [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good point, cos certainly if, if you're towards the aggressive, we've actually got go [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] you might shout a bit louder, shout a bit louder and what happens if it doesn't work. All at the end you do is losing your voice... and, and if you don't get your way, then you it up louder and louder and louder and if you don't get your way you may have to back down then and the aggressive person backing down to sort of a submissive doesn't always hold very much credibility. Maybe the assertive person might be able to be more flexible certainly cos he can move between. I've never had somebody from my class should be able to beat passive assertive that way find it difficult to do that one. What about the philosophy for this one then assertive? Yes.... Yeah the attitude is very much about I respect your rights as an individual, you've got equal rights as much as I have. The individual who's gonna be assertive is likely to be open and honest or likely to admit things that are not so good at honest those, but they're not gonna necessarily apologise for those, they're gonna treat those as statements of fact and they're certainly gonna try and involve other people and actually say what do you think this, what are some ways forward er but it doesn't mean that they're gonna be walked all over and they still stand up for the things that they firmly believe in. They may not always get what they want, but at least they're standing up for them and actually feel good about themselves afterwards because. At least I had my say in it, and had the opportunity to put something in. Okay, so goodness from the assertive group. Passive group.... Right well erm [speaker002:] We decided to er change [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well... I think the... [LAUGHTER] I decided that what I did it for small reasons [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Thank you very much. Thanks David. Comments from the others for that passive behaviour? [speaker002:] It's very apologetic. [speaker001:] Right. It frequently is apologetic yeah. Why, why is it likely to be apologetic? Yeah, I mean it's about to decide whether you lose situations now I lose... Everybody else is much better than me, everybody else has got a far better right to actually [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] They often can be related to in hierarchy terribly aggressive to his subordinates but the company or his boss quite often the position the attitude that we actually take passive, aggressive, assertive. So a range of behaviour is very important in influencing that we identify where we're coming from and where the other party's coming from as well, so that we can maybe begin to mould our behaviour and decide what is appropriate... maybe on some occasions towards a passive actually gonna help us achieve for influence. We may decide let's be passive and move to battle decide is actually an important issue and wanna be aggressive and they actually bring in a relationship so important. On other occasions we may decide assertiveness is an investment actually got to use that style of behaviour to get my point across and to listen to them as well. So the choice is the choice. [speaker002:] right you've got a view but the other party the other party actually has a point of view you don't know you need to look change. Change is probably the biggest sitting with their arms crossed quite long periods involved with what is going on people who sit with their folding sometimes change of attitude how people react Indeed and one of the points can be more difficult you don't know [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay. So we've had a look at the three different erm behaviour types... passive, aggressive, assertive. stage further though, and begin to think about what we're dealing with people with different behaviour types. How do we actually manage to deal with them, some of the ways that we can actually do that. So we'll do, let's just split into two groups, one group to have a look at aggressive people, one group to have a look at passive and what I'd like to do is identify any groups. How you gonna deal with people who are, we get this side of the group to be aggressive people passive side, we'll give the right hand side of the group as I'm standing look at the passive people. How are you gonna deal with passive people on the right and how are you gonna deal with aggressive people. What are some of the things that you can do when you actually have to deal with these people, particularly remember if you try to achieve influence on a course here, that's what we're here for. We'll leave the assertive alone for this particular point in time what are we to do to deal with aggressive, what are we to do to deal with passive. Again, some feedback on the flip chart erm let's give you fifteen minutes for that so it's coming up to five past twenty past [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] We'll take a bit of feedback on how you're gonna deal with those people. Yeah the clock, the clock's there I always get groups that say [moaning] where's [] the clock cos they can't sort of see where it is and I'm sort of saying it's the angle tell the time. Okay so a quarter of an hour and we'll take some feedback... I think the er last one is perhaps...... So if anybody's got or anything else perhaps [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay who would like to come and er give us a feedback? This is the group that are dealing with passive behaviour.... [speaker002:] Erm they can start by relaxing erm and a passive person erm and at the same time try and increase their. Always use encouraging words... see their point of view involve instructions as possible, understand what their, what problems they have and try and provide where possible erm reward positive feedback.... Er... establish trust much as possible and involve er and try and get involved yourself if you can in any way to er show that you're, you understand the task that they're doing. Erm try and where possible to use the individual communication with them as opposed to erm communicating to them as a member of a group... preferably in a relaxed environment er rather than a sort of erm including any decision making pass on as much credit for that decision as possible [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] erm possible identify their impassive reasons for their. [speaker001:] Good, thanks a lot. Yes certainly deal with pa passive people... probably more difficult people [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] When I was out on the road I mean before I came into training I was so I laid my cards at the table at this point in time to say yes I need to sell insurance erm and I always remember particular broker who... you go in and and he's saying well so how many of these particular products would you sell over the next year and he said oh twenty five and you go in great, guy's promised to sell twenty five domestic contents policies over the next year. Unfortunately the rules inspector would come in next and the rules inspector would say to the guy how many rules policies are and you say oh G A inspector and to every one he actually gained in fact it wasn't there was no commitment there at all get rid of people. difficult people to deal with they get much commitments out they're so frightened they won't actually say no, they won't point out what is the objection to that and none of us got very much business out of the guy at all. I mean how he even got to be a broker I never understood. But he just could not give very very very difficult to actually deal with. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Actually there are quite a few infuriating people went out for a drink what are you having to drink and she said oh whatever you're having [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and who have never ever been assertive oh well whatever you're having I'll have the same. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that's right. situation where you why did you do that and the silence is absolutely incredibly aggressive and you feel quite put on the spot. So silence can yes be a very good technique but too much it can actually be sometimes a bad thing very, very aggressive. [speaker002:] alright, that's what you want, that is what we'll do. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you passive group. aggressive. [speaker002:] avoid the confrontation [speaker001:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] two of you against one of them back you up [speaker001:] whatever it means, whatever it means to you. [speaker002:] situation [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, thanks John. Yes please. Again any sort of comments on some of those tactics there? you absolutely get them going off but sometimes you actually want to use... all's fair in love and war also actually use those sort of tactics. In terms of how rant and rave for probably not very long... and you don't get aggressive behaviour, got nowhere else to go, you gotta get to come back down hang on to the chair to grim death absolute shambles never used it like this. You can actually get a lot of information out of the group. The passive person, you sit there. Okay. [speaker002:] don't try and stop them and they start all over again it's incredibly hard work shouting [shouting] what do you mean shouting you, you think I'm shouting though, you wait till I get going [] you know, [shouting] okay, right [] incredibly powerful trying to work out exactly what he wants er eyes were bulging [shouting] don't do that, don't do that, I'm in charge, don't do that. Don't you dare I'm in charge of this interview [] and erm... and erm and erm what's caused this and why discussion what has caused this change to try and find out and put him off Horrible feeling you see two people shouting at each other two people shouting at each other get the impression that the other party is actually doing an impression of a goldfish and going like that. Did you ever see that actually talking concentrating at what you're saying [speaker001:] Okay, shall we break for coffee?

[Jerry:] the next meeting in March, with very good reason, it clashes with a conference that needs to attend so we're proposing, with your agreement, that we put it forward a week to the seventeenth of March, is that a problem for anybody? [speaker002:] When? [Jerry:] Same time, ten thirty. [speaker002:] Possibly for me, [Jerry:] Could you just let us know? [speaker002:] Yes thank you. [Jerry:] Right [speaker002:] When, when is [Jerry:] The seventeenth of March. [speaker002:] What's on the twenty second, Harry? [Jerry:] It was on the twenty second, we're putting it forward a week, [speaker002:] That's not a week, [Jerry:] five day week, well, five day week.... Okay, Right, Harold, you can start your recorder if you wish now. Apologies for absence? [speaker002:] Chairman, apologies from Sue, Mr, and Mr. [Jerry:] Who are, as you probably all know, erm, in London, or on their way to London, lobbying, I hope successfully, but I fear probably not, [LAUGHTER] said he, keeping an eye on the tape recorder [] trying to get more money out of the government in regard to our backing in this, and we wish you well. It's supported by our local M P, so I believe, well it's... okay, minutes of the previous meeting which was held on the twelfth of October, and I'll sign them as a true and accurate version.... This takes us into item three, this is the provision of service land, [clears throat] er, the [speaker002:] updating report, Chairman, I've these past, the contract for the on-site services has now been let by, by the County Council's private ent department, they're actually going in the present time., that contract is now completed, the infrastructure contract on site itself has been let, and er, we have now resolved all the, the issues that were on that site, and effectively we've already sold two of the plots off that site before. Details of those are on plot two. The Tern Valley business park, Chairman, the er, the management board met to have a look at the site, we're getting some demand for some smaller plots have turned down, and there is the proposal that was considered by the, the management but was turned down, to put in a little round, er, so we could rate some of the plots at the bottom of the site in, to er, mark out the plots rather than pull any plots erm, if the construction of them would be funded from, from selling plots in that area. Recommendations, Chairman, just to note the report, and to ratify the decision of the Tern Valley management body, about the construction of a on that site. Where is in relation to this? Well, if I can check it on the plan, it's, the plan actually shows half the site, there's the central slide way way coming down through the development site, all that occupies, all one side of the slide way. Yes, right [Jerry:] Any other questions, accept the report.... Item four, a lot of these, I think you'll find, are items which are purely for information. It's important that they keep me abreast of what's happening, paper C. [speaker002:] A power to advance, Chairman. All the er, all the units are let, we've had two, we've had notice of two terminations coming up, but we have actually got a waiting list for units so I don't think we'll have any problem in filling those. Interestingly, all, all eighteen units on that site have been full from the day they were created, and that's been a most successful run. we've come, we've had to make at previous meetings, Chairman, about the er, about the fall off we've had in demand for the small units there now. We've actually had a pick up, there's been a sort of renewed interest, er, it's quite significant that over the last month or so, there's been quite an increase in, in people making enquiries about those units. We have actually let four of the units, two have gone to a department of Council for a service they're delivering in the area, er, but actually it's a manufacturing type of operation that they're running there so it's, that, that, you know, is in keeping with the nature of the units, and the other two units have gone elsewhere. I think that's really quite positive, that we see erm, that we see an increase in demand coming about in them areas., the Alberney units erm, have never been successful since the time they were, they were constructed. The maximum, I think we've ever let at any one time is three of the six units, we're currently down only to one unit there at Alberney. Sandy Lane, we're now erm, we're down to eleven of the eighteen units occupied at Sandy Lane. Right, members will recall from the last meeting, there was an issue of it at Shrewsbury College, because of the transfer of the screw and ribbon factory to the college, or the College's claim to the transfer of the screw and ribbon factory to them, because of the er, the cre the vesting of the College as an in independent body under the Higher Education Act. We've had some discussion with the College to seek to resolve this, and the proposals erm, are set out in paragraph four, three, er, in that it would mean that the College would not take over the ownership of the site, er, and it, but, but they would continue to occupy their part of the site er, effectively rent free from the County Council, but if, at any time, they decided they, the College wanted to move away from the site, it would revert to the County Council, it wouldn't actually become a College asset. I think probably Chairman, it's the best deal that we could get in the circumstances. I think, Chairman, that's still subject to approval by the E A B, erm, which is at the end of the day, the important party that has to be satisfied, so, these are very successful negotiations, but we, we're still awaiting erm, confirmation they've been accepted. By whom? By the Education Assets Board. Who are they? A government body, and if, if, if at the end of the day, there is, there is still disagreement between us and the E A B, er, then there, there is an appeal to the Secretary of State, but erm, we're hoping that the E A B may accept these proposals. Terence, it's just a very small point, Yes, you see he agreed to contribute to a suitable replacement upon terms that we agreed, what happens if terms aren't, can't be agreed? I mean, Who's, who's going to agree the terms? Well, it would be between the County Council and the College, I mean I, I can't envisage the situation that we would actually serve notice on the, on the College to leave the site and therefore trigger that part of the agreement. But the minute, the minute the College simply agreed, at least they've agreed to close for ten million pounds at least if they don't agree, what would happen then? Well we, if, this only happens if we wish them to vacate the site, and what it is is to jump to a suitable Oh no it isn't we intend to redevelop the site And if a suitable replacement for the facilities they've got now, Chair, where, where erm, agreements er, leave things open wherever possible, the courts will interpret them as the parties intended to act reasonably one to the other, and er, if there were a formal agreement and that was then tested it would be a matter for the courts to decide what was reasonable, obviously asking for, what was it you're suggesting, ten million? Would be regarded as unreasonable, there'll be no question of that being enforced, but er, clearly where the thing's left open there, there's some room for manoeuvre in negotiation eventually and settlement if need be before the courts. [Jerry:] Okay, we're asked to approve these terms in para four three, is anyone backing it? Okay. Five, inward investment activities to pay the deed. [speaker002:] Just the report to, to note, Chairman. Er, Er, just one question er, Chairman, that we have success to report on that, though I can't go into details. Erm, members who are also members of the Business Grants Panel will recall that at the December meeting we agreed to grant to to a company so he may relocate into the area creating twenty seven jobs, and Friday we learnt that relocation's to go ahead to Telford. To Telford, two companies, that the policy's helped. [Jerry:] Right, local report? [speaker002:] Chairman, Chairman, there's erm, where, where's, can I ask where that funding's coming from? [Jerry:] Of course [speaker002:] Locating from Telford. The West Midlands Conurbation. From the West Midlands? Erm, on this paper I just wanted to ask you, erm, Simon says it's from the erm, American agency, how many jobs, I, I would really like to know how much we spend, or how much is spent on trying to achieve jobs from American, from companies in America, and erm, how many jobs have been created? I only say this, because it's always been very difficult to get erm, America to take any, any interest at all in developing in England, and, how and I'd wondered if it's still the same situation. With all due respect to have an obsession to getting American viewpoint to erm, set up in England, and I would just like to know how much it really comes to? I thought there were two answers to that, madam, through the Chair, er, the first is that we don't actually spend any money directly ourselves, as a County Council in America, we contribute towards the Regional Development Organization, the W M D A, and our contribution is about twenty thousands pounds per year. Erm, which is a very proportion of their costs, it's mostly funded by the D T I, and some private sector investment. They in turn, have consultants in Japan, erm, in Europe, and in the United States, and their particular consultant in America happens to be in Pittsburg, run by this chap called Simon who, by the way we feel is, is very effective and very good at his job. The second part of the question, erm, how do we evaluate it, is extremely difficult. Erm, we get er, leads, unfortunately they become available across the whole of western Europe or the whole of Britain, and we don't have hundreds of successes from America. It's clear they come one every so often, as the one from Germany, but when they do come, they're very worthwhile, it justifies our effort. I can't give you a figure now, on how many American firms there are in the county, erm, but I can do some work on it and come back to you. I would like, Chairman, to know, because er, it always seems to me that unnecessary money is spent in, in the American lead, so it's difficult to get any money. I don't know who's our representative to, and I think, I can and erm, I just, yes, I mean Europe yes, the Far East, yes, but are, is, a waste of money? [Jerry:] My recollection, and I'm speaking from memory, and I could be wrong, but I think that the last time I looked at lists of the various companies in Telford, where I'm obviously more concerned, not, well, that's not to mean I'm not concerned elsewhere, but I'm more familiar with respect to them, my recollection is that the more American than anything else on that site. [speaker002:] It's been certainly true er, Chair, that America has been the largest source of inward investment in this country consistently. I mean, ranking of the countries descending as business in the way it changes, and Japan comes first, Germany's gone down in recent years because of that trouble, but America has consistently been the major investor in this country. Not always noticed because if it's called Cements it doesn't look like a foreign company, but if it's called Mitsubishi or something well, it will stand out. But it is worth attacking as a target market, simply because of its size. Could [Jerry:] The great, I mean, you've a valid point and I think it's due to the recession in America, I think we were disappointed were we not Bruce, that the results of our trip to er, New York State, and this has nothing to do with the enthusiasm of the business people we met there, everything to do, in my view, with the fact that the recession, and America's been through a very tough recession, they just don't look to expand elsewhere, but the reaction we had in, in er, in America was very, very powerful of, of a wish to want to do something when things look better. [speaker002:] One of the, one of the, I think what perhaps American companies have, I have asked David to go upstairs and get the list of foreign companies operating in Shropshire, so we can actually see how many American companies there are, among, among, throughout the county. I think one of the things the American companies often do is that, rather than set up on a green field site, they often buy into an existing company, erm, and therefore it's, it's, it's a, it's a somewhat different form of investment to the Like Clarke Pardon? Like Clarke Fuller's Well, I think, erm, McConnell er, McConnell to let them Mm, McConnell to let them, have been bought by an American company as well then. So there is a flow of American source in, but less I think in terms of building a new factory on green field, a green site, and more of erm, buying an existing operation And, and, which might continue employment, which doesn't actually create extra employment. Sometimes it creates extra,... sure Erm, I, I, I didn't say the question lightly it's just that I think it needs watching, and I wondered how it was, because I've heard so often in the past, that people have so many lines of enquiries, but the money goes, and you know, it's all marvellous, and I'm not suggesting [Jerry:] The big Christmas, big Christmas card company, erm, and it is big, er, is American, and wholly owned American, and that's not, but they didn't build a factory, they took one over that's already, [speaker002:] Right [Jerry:] yes, sure [speaker002:] In five, three, it says we've only got seventeen U S enquiries in the last twelve months, could I, could I ask how many of those seventeen produced anything? Yes, a lot of those are actually spread over the whole of the U K. One of the problems about, about dealing with somebody like in the process is that, one, they get their enquiries from the Investment Income Bureau, the Investment Income Bureau get their enquiries from the consulates, so what, what is happening, that they're only picking up those people who are searching everywhere. There's, there's no direct relationship, now, what we attempted to do with the Metropolitan Development Agency was to fill the direct link, so you can get in earlier erm, Can I just... I think, I think it's a hundred and er, twenty eight foreign companies in Shropshire, thirty four of them are American. [Jerry:] The next biggest is, is? [speaker002:] The next biggest is erm, the next biggest is Germany and then followed by Japan. And the American companies are, er, Windsor Life is an American company, erm, I'm just picking out the, some of the big names that you see in Telford, Sanoko, er, Alcan, Clarke's Foods, Fruit of the Loom, Gibson's Greetings Cards, H F T Trust and Savings Plan, erm, you know, that, that's just Well it's, it's undoubted there are erm, sometimes, we have a listing of er, of all the different foreign companies who are operating. Er, er, er, government of what's going on at the moment [Jerry:] Okay, any other points? Right.... Business Development Section, Paper E. [speaker002:] The er, Business Grants Panel share has, has, has now met on a number of occasions, and the three results of its decisions are set in the report. The, the problem that is arising in this, is that it is now clear that, er, that the Grants Panel are running out of money this year, because of the take up of, of lots more grants. And it, they're likely to need something like a further twenty thousand pounds er, if they don't have sufficient funds to continue to at the balance of this financial year. I mean, it isn't as though we have to operate a policy in which we heavily advertise the availability of grants, it, it can develop via word of mouth, if we advertise anything, we would be inundated with demand for to a level that we couldn't cope with. The recommendation of the report on that Chairman, is that er, we should erm, transfer twenty thousand pounds to the er, Business Grants from the, either from existing budgets and any other existing sources of funds which are available within the department, it would be, if we merely trawl through everything, we might find anyway we might have some fund, fund spending spree at the end of the year, see if we keep things, just let's keep the scheme going. [Jerry:] Any comment? [speaker002:] This seems, this seems a worthwhile thing to do to me, Chairman, this may reflect that, this position that we are in the business cycle that er, you know, with a slightly optimistic outlook, a lot of firms are seeing themselves in a position to expand and, and need this to help them do so. [Jerry:] Yes, any other comment? We agree the recommendations then? [speaker002:] at all? [Jerry:] Yes [speaker002:] I think what we have got to bear in mind, Mr Chairman, is that the small business is, it is a very, very dangerous time as we come out of recession, more businesses get into difficulties when they're into expanding, than when they're just, just surviving, if you like so erm, I think we have to keep a very careful eye on the next six months. [Jerry:] True, yes, yes, yes, yes I'd agree, Ivor, one point four, [speaker002:] Erm, yes Chairman, the, the suggestion of the recommendation if you like, that er, Reginald's erm, proposal it is, er to participate is, is er, rejected by er, I don't particularly feel that way about it, that erm, if, apart from the fact that the contribution is sizable, and I don't think that we'll get all that many applications from the Regional District Council anyway, but erm, I wouldn't see harm at all of both Oswestry and Bridgenorth being allowed to send a representative if there were any applications, it'd be good for their area, er, and er, even if they weren't allowed to vote on it, and I suppose they shouldn't be allowed to vote on it, erm, I, I would see it as erm, another attempt, another avenue to, towards partnership between District Council and the County Council development. Which at this particular time is, is much more [Jerry:] I think, I take your point Ivor, and we don't dissent from it, what we have to guard against, two things, one, that the Committee becomes big and cumbersome, and two, of course, we mustn't get into a situation where a regional representative is repre is influencing decisions made elsewhere in the county, that's the effect of the [speaker002:] Yes, well I, I, I make that point [Jerry:] Quite, providing there was only one representative, and we weren't overburdened, providing it was clearly understood that they were there almost in the same way that a local member would be, to speak on a given item, and not to vote, then I don't think we'd have any objections, but it's entirely up to the Committee, how do you feel? [speaker002:] Can I just say, Chairman, that the problem was that they asked for, the region asked for equal representation with the County Council, now if all the districts did that then there'd be, then the Grants Panel would have about twenty one people to I mean, for the operation to go ahead. I would support the Chairman's suggestion that if this is done at all, that it be done exactly on that basis as, as if they were a local member allowed to speak on that specific item, but not to vote on, but not to have a vote on anything. [Jerry:] Yes, right. [speaker002:] I think Chair, a far better idea might be that it, when we get particular applications from a given district, that the officers actually ascertain er, a bit of erm, information from that particular district in order to present to the Committee, to take into account when they're doing things, I think that would be a far better way because if we have politicians elected in that particular area, they'd certainly probably come and, and try and hold the sway for that particular item, and there may be justifiable grounds on a countywide basis not to concede it. [Jerry:] Mm, it's a valid point [speaker002:] But we already consult on We do, yes [Jerry:] Well how do we feel, it seems to me not exactly consensus on this, this issue? [speaker002:] We could introduce it for a trial period, we could [Jerry:] I don't mind, I, I'm relaxed about it, I think Councillor 's point of view, and it is a valid point of view, erm, shall we, shall we permit the officers to negotiate using their best endeavours and see how it goes, but have a special meeting, but play it by ear, everybody happy with that then? So we're happy with the twenty thousand pounds which we need to find from our already er, okay. Tourist promotion. Paper F. [speaker002:] There're a number of items er, Chair, erm, the brochure has been produced and well received. The production at no cost to the Authority because of the advertising revenue, extensive press coverage erm, and media coverage. Sixty major articles since April ninety three, erm, in such publications as the BBC's Tourism magazine,, Chat magazine, those three alone, the value of that publicity is fifty three thousand pounds, so our, our officers are doing well on that front. World travel market attended, the club promotion, although it's still running, hasn't been very successful, over four hundred bed nights into the campaign, as a result of that short running promotion. Product development, you have a leaflet on er, rural churches in front of you. Walking in time, through time is, is erm, being in proceeding. The... objective to funding from the old objective programme is we've now learnt that we've been successful in getting a grant made towards the Centre feasibility study, Shropshire welcomes Japan television advertisement on the Japanese, Japan area, towards the pipeworks promotion and the fly-drive marketing initiative because, er, to get people from North America into the marches and staying here, so it looks as those projects will be almost fifty percent funded from Europe to objective two. The Bridgenorse, Bridgenorth I beg your pardon initiative is proceeding er, in terms of an advisory group, and we have as a committee, a Councillor Tony, a regional member, recently take, took the place of er, Councillor on that group, and he is willing to continue. We had to nominate a member. Similarly, the projects schemes that elect a member, it's Councillor, who's also willing to continue, and that's for this period of time. Chairman, erm, I think that erm, Councillor who is on this Committee is quite interesting in, and interested in this Bridgenorth initiative, and I think that he does, as are representatives of the transitional advisory. [Jerry:] Is that seconded, any further nominations? [speaker002:] I propose that Tony remains as our representative. [Jerry:] That's seconded, nice to know we have a straight choice, as you favour, we'll take them in reverse order. Those in favour of Councillor Tony, please show, one, two, three, four, five, those in favour of the other gentleman, please show, one, two, three, four, good grief [speaker002:] Blimey [Jerry:] he's come closer than many do, okay, [speaker002:] Can I propose Councillor for the one? [Jerry:] and Councillor.... Any further nominations for County? [speaker002:] No, er [Jerry:] I think er, Committee ought just to say thanks for both of them, I, I mean this isn't the way with reference to peace elects them democratic, though they're, I think both Mr and represent the County of Swindon now, and I'm grateful to both of them because they took a, a, a weight off my personal shoulders, which was useful. [door knock] [speaker002:] Come in [Jerry:] Yes [speaker002:] Could I say that there was? [Jerry:] yes, yes. [speaker002:] Yes, Mr Chairman, I, erm, I, I, I do appreciate that erm, I've been invited through Committee er, to go through what I do represent er, the building project erm, on behalf of the economic development, because as you all know, I'm of course on the economic development before, but er, in the past I've found that that I have er been, shall we say, relieved of my positions on other er, position, erm, unknownst to myself, and of course I have er, actually turned up on these planning functions and been there, and to me in the past, I have always found that if one is going to be missed one must then, one's either asked if he wishes to continue, if he's been doing his job properly, if he doesn't do his job properly then it's only right to replace him. But at least give that person whose turn er, on the Management Committee for representing er, another committee, give him the opportunity to s either speak on it, or to say whether or not he wishes to carry on and of course to see what the vote people would take, and to put himself forward even so, which unfortunately, I wasn't er, able to do so. [Jerry:] But I think this is why [speaker002:] But I think I do appreciate that the Economic and Development has invited me on. [Jerry:] I think it would be wrong of this Committee to comment on the er, what happens in other committees, certainly in this Committee, I don't think any, anyone's ever criticized your erm, representation on the community project, we do perfectly, we can't hurt their decisions, so your relationship with this Committee is, is good, er, elsewhere, I don't know anything about it. Now, okay [speaker002:] No, [Jerry:] perhaps erm, we should note too, that the recommendation of the contribution of five thousand pounds, everybody happy with that? [speaker002:] All I would say, Jerry, is that it'll have to come out of something like our carry forwards for this. [Jerry:] Yes, which will be an item on the agenda later on. But we do agree, I, it's silly not to support money in the, the work they're doing is good, certainly the er, the Bridgenorth, in the tourist areas didn't look really well into making enquir to promote those. One of the big items there is the bridge project isn't it? Which is struggling to get off the ground. Did they ever get that under way? [speaker002:] Erm, I think it's still under discussion. [Jerry:] Still, mm, yes [speaker002:] There are other things in development. [Jerry:] yes, well, we listen well. Right, Paper eight, which is the sad paper, the earnings level in Shropshire. [speaker002:] Well, the figures are there, it's, it's following the, the very substantial debate that took place at the last County Council meeting, on the issue of earnings within Shropshire, it's to give the Committee a bit more detailed information about the position, and, and particularly I think, the position about female earnings in the County er, where we're, we're really at the bottom of, of the U K lists. Erm, it, perhaps part of it has been that a lot of the job creation mentioned has actually been of female and part-time work, and a lot of the er, new businesses in erm, Telford actually employ a lot of women in, in those areas. So we are looking to the effect of the aims, a low paid county, that's not something, Chairman, I'm proud of, because I do think that, that those, that areas with a high paid economy are genuinely more prosperous areas. High pay doesn't actually mean that, that everybody is less wealthy, it generally means that people are more wealthy. The two out of here is. The other issue, Chair, that's on, is the issue of the low paid unit, and the er, the view as to whether we can keep it, about the wish to join the new West Midlands Low Paid Unit, who presumably know about the issue of pay er, of certain people in Shropshire. [Jerry:] On the question of low pay, there is a point of view which some hold, that being an area of low pay attracts, help attract inward investment, and I can't deny that certain, not all, but certain companies certainly take into consideration. But, in my personal experience in America, not so much Korea, certainly Japan, erm, the, the first question invariably that you're asked is communication. That's always been my experience, and then even the question of your links with the local universities. In my experience it's always, it's higher than low pay, and I don't believe that companies go to an area because the payment of wages is low if everything else is not favourable to them as well, in fact low pay in itself does not attract, and conversely, I don't think the thought's an impossibility, because I've talked to potential inward investors, and jokingly, sort of teased them and if you get enough companies coming into Shropshire, then inevitably wages will go up, and they're intelligent people, and they realize it, and they not the magic ball, and of course when local shopkeepers are concerned about their businesses, then the amount of wages that are available to spend has an effect on your local small company. Those are my opinions, I don't expect everyone to share, but they're there. On the in er, not wish to help to support the low pay unit, we've two options, well, we've three. One, not to erm, be involved at all, two to be involved, and I s think we should because we get very valuable information and help from them, but my own opinion, and I think I speak for my group, is that we don't need to worry about having representation on the board, if we go for option two, which I believe represents the best value for money, but it's up to this Committee to decide, and it's in your hands. Any comments? Yes. [speaker002:] I would agree entirely with all of the first part of your discourse Mr Chairman, [Jerry:] Oh, right, [speaker002:] I feel [clears throat] what companies are looking for is an available skilled workforce, not the opportunity to get a lot of unemployed people at a very low wage so, I'm basically supporting what you've said. But I do feel that it is, it would be a complete waste of this Committee's money, when we've many better things to spend it on, to join this low pay unit. It would be yet another committee, a group of sor whatever they are, that eat up our money, and no use or purpose in my opinion. [Jerry:] Right, any other comments? [speaker002:] Right, er, that, the, the earnings figures, and the unemployment figures in the next paper illustrate a labour market situation in Shropshire in which workers are in a very weak and unenviable position. I mean the phrase better low pay than no pay, has been used to sort of describe the economic situation and, and, and the, and almost the economic development strategy. But from the point of the people in that position, they're in a dilemma, they're in an extremely weak position. Coupled to that the er, sort of the statutory protection which has been in existence for er, workers for many years in some cases is, is being whittled away. Er, has been and is continue, continuing to be whittled away, so workers in Shropshire are, are in a poor position, and, and this is an opportunity to, to give them some help, to replace some of that statutory protection which is being removed. The low pay unit isn't er, a government civil service type operation, it's, it's an independent body. I think it provides very good value for money, er, I think it will give Shropshire workers some of the protection that they're lacking from the statutory instruments that are being removed, and from the labour market conditions they face, and erm, maybe er, a, a, some successful operations by this er, low pay unit would, would, would improve, improve the position in Shropshire, and maybe er, get employers to, to improve the er, conditions and wages that they offer, so I would certainly support er, option two. Chair This causes problems er, if I may say so, er but erm, it, the paragraph doesn't make any reference to the date, it's paragraph five point three, now I want to see debate in the point in erm, implementing it before the first of April. [Jerry:] I think I'm, I'm, before the first of April. [speaker002:] No, the intention is before next year, by next year. Yes, yes, one extra job I was just going to say, I think what you say on full employment, erm, elsewhere they're keeping wages and pay up isn't it, erm, and I've known a couple in Telford again, that there's work there, a new company it's perfectly easy to take on all the good skilled labour they want, then they say they feel they're very guilty because they're poaching it from across the road, the British company has probably been two wages so that the jobs, it does mount up, so I don't, I, I would like to know more about erm, what the low pay unit would really do to help us, and I look at this eight thousand two hundred and eighty pounds, and I think that would go an awful long way in the Mr Chairman, in helping to keep that going, which creates all the people who leave and get jobs, and good jobs, and get skills, and erm, I, I, it may be if there's going to be a big budget, eight thousand pounds is not very much, but I, but when you think an individual project like that of course, any sort of traineeship, it's a lot of money. [Jerry:] Conversely, though, if this Committee instructed groups as it well could that it wanted regular updates on the pay position of this County, and he had to put someone to work on researching them, it would cost you what like that? Yes, Keith? [speaker002:] Yes, Chair, I, I mean I support the criteria that's been laid out in five two there, I think it's very important that we do actually, important that we do actually highlight the issue of low pay, and where it's occurring, and in, in some way that then prevents companies, the, the unscrupulous type of companies that would come in to exploit that, from actually doing it, since most people would then be aware it, and I think that the last speaker's just suggested that it's an extremely cheap way of obtaining masses of information about Shropshire's erm, earnings levels, and I think that's very important that we are, and do come to grips with that, and clearly couldn't afford officer time to be spent on, on merely collating that all the time. It'd be a full time job I should say, possibly one or two posts and perhaps even more than that. [Jerry:] Any further comment? [speaker002:] Well I would, I would just like to draw the distinction between value added and other considerations, and what will create high pay, and giving high value added per employee, and that's really where we should be directing our efforts. I think, erm, unfortunately, an employer and even possibly any employer whether it's a nationalized industry or unnationalized industry will want to produce value added per employee, and that's where the erm, pay is going to come from. Er, that's assuming the employer wants to pass on in pay, the rewards of adding value. I would have thought the labour market conditions are also a vital ingredient if profitability is to be passed on or shared out in higher wages. It's inevitably, if we've got a high value added per employee, He can and he wants to increase his employee, his, his value added by increasing the number of employees. I mean, it's, it's, I really do feel on these tendency to come on all the reports, I think we want, I think we want to hear that jobs and wages will undoubtedly go up, it's erm... this is absolutely inevitable that wages will go up and rise in the situation. It's almost equally inevitable that they will go down in the low income bracket. [Jerry:] anyway, we aren't agreed on whether or not we support the low pay unit, so to resolve it can I move from the Chair, and we take option two, perhaps second it? [speaker002:] Seconded. [Jerry:] Is there an alternative motion, or do we just simply vote against? [speaker002:] Yes. [Jerry:] Yes, okay, those in favour then of my motion, please show. [speaker002:] One, two, three, four, five. [Jerry:] Against? [speaker002:] Four [Jerry:] A bit predictable, isn't it? Okay, I think I should point out to the Committee, I think it's self evident, that the gains will be dependent upon the budget, probably with regard to the position, and the vexing question of carry forwards. But er, that's another matter. Okay, I will now pronounce this single regeneration agency an integrated regional government, or missed one sorry. Paper H. Ah, yes, paper H. Right, it's his turn then. Sorry, okay. Who's doing H? Again. It's isn't it? [speaker002:] Erm, unemployment in Shropshire, Chair, erm, a round-up of the figures which are traditionally given there in para two one, I don't remember, under travel to work areas, under what's called the narrow base. That's the way of calculating it. And, the narrow base erm, excludes certain types of people, therefore the rates are always higher than the other way of calculating it, erm, it's the number of unemployed as a percentage of the number of employees in employment, in their employment, plus the unemployed. Like that. Right, at the last Committee, it was suggested that the figures be presented to Committee on a town by town basis, I E not the wider travel to work areas, the reason being that the travel to work areas are, are quite large and sometimes mask differences in rates of unemployment between different settlements. Most figures are shown over the page, and pa in para two five, but they're calculated in a different way. That's not our choice, that's the only way we can get these figures from officialdom. That's why they're shown there, they're different to the figures shown on the first page of the report, but because they're calculated on the same base, er, one can compare at each other, one can compare the different towns. And those are the figures that we have. If, if anybody is interested, these unemployment rates are calculated by the number of unemployed as a percentage of the estimated total of the workforce, the sum of the unemployed claimants, employees, and call it self-employed, H M Forces and participants in work related training programmes. Therefore these will always be lower, but at least one can compare town with town, and see the differences. Then on the third page, some wards with very high rates of unemployment, I think they are the top twenty if memory serves me right. Now this paper has produced er, er, for information only, to keep members informed of what's happening out there. [Jerry:] I think we should be aware, looking at these figures, that the female figures are, in my view, many, many, many miles away from reality. That these are official figures of parliament, let without money. If you did a survey of women of the age which people can work at, who would be willing to work if work were available, you'd have er completely different figures. Assuming of course, that most women see no point in registering under unemployed or whatever, because it, it achieves nothing. So that these are based on, I think I'm correct in saying, I'm not wrong, these are based on people registered. [speaker002:] Registered, and in receipt of benefit. Benefit classific so they're an underestimate. [Jerry:] Note the report... right. Now, we go to this single regeneration agency, and integrated regional office. It's an important matter, this isn't it? [speaker002:] It, it, I think it is actually, er, Chair, it's something that, that local governments as a whole needs to keep their eye on. Because what the government have done, is they've taken two, two steps, they've created a really, a joint regional office of government at civil service level, and they now have a single regional director who is in charge of all the departments at, at the. Now, that actually has chan is starting to change the nature of the way that government are control, seeking to control the services. And I, maybe I'm, I may be wrong on this, but it does seem to me that it is potentially a step down the road, in the longer term to the development of regional members. Er, let's, they are, seem to be setting up the s the administrative structures for regional government, without any democratic regional government taking part in the process. The second thing of course is, that they are coordinating the erm, through, through the single regeneration agency, and the, and the single regeneration budget, the way in which they handle their monies, which, which go into economic development type activities. The, the er, single regeneration agency is taking on board the issues of things like derelict land and a number of other ways in which, for example English partnership is in the regeneration industry, and a number of other ways in which the, the government have acted to, to try to make things happen. But they've also pooled together in this single regeneration budget on, and er, as it says on the back page, all those other budgets which were all handled separately before, to create this very large pool of money that is available. Now, I think what we've got to try and ensure is that, that rural counties like Shropshire get a fair crack at that money as well, and we need to be starting to develop and I'll touch on this if I come, gentlemen, when I come on to development strategy, we need to be developing a regeneration strategy for the county, so that bids to the government for funding from the regeneration budget and from this, from the regen from the er, the single regeneration agency, er, are seen against the background of a cohesive strategy, and we, I think we will be much more successful when we go for government money bids, on that particular basis. So really it's for information Chairman, but it's a watch this space one, I think, because, I think there is probably more behind the steps that have been taken here, as we're seeing on the face of it at the moment. [Jerry:] I... this could be a welcome providing that sooner or later the democratic element catches up with the bureaucratic one. [speaker002:] Chair, I think that the pro the point is, is the emphasis is on, on partnerships is it not, and, and that those who formulate partnerships within the community with other organizations through the region of the local authority structure, then they will be the ones that will get the most of, of this funding. Nobody else will get any unless they, they've demonstrated that they've met the partnership criteria. So it's an important change I think in er, the way it's structured. [Jerry:] Any other comments? I look forward to the day when we do have a regional tier of government, and erm, a very prominent local politician, not of my party, told me in confidence, that he believes that erm, there will be a regional tier of government sooner or later, if only to react to the pressures from Europe. And we do know, that when we're negotiating in Europe, the fact that we do not negotiate as the er, Portuguese, the Spanish, the Germans, negotiate, as a regional government, it means that we carry less clout, and that is a fact of European life. Right, let us live in hope.... Right, provision of help to overseas local authorities, Paper J. [speaker002:] Is this for information? [Jerry:] Yes, we don't necessarily take any action unless the Committee thinks otherwise. Okay, could you make the report. Item twelve, which is paper K, er, the order has tumbled down in too many free meetings, which... right, business links, otherwise known as the one stop shop. [speaker002:] Otherwise known as the one stop shop, yes, just an updating for, for members on the basis of the report, the, there are a er, number of recommendations attached to the report, the business link proposal with it's core at, at Park in Telford is now erm, processing to, hoping to open in April or May nineteen ninety four. The suggestions are that the County Council in particular should help in the development of satellites to that erm, that business link, one in Oswestry and one at Craven Arms, and we should seek to make sure those satellites are available by no later than the end of nineteen ninety four, the beginning of nineteen ninety five. But the Oswestry one I think, would probably be only for the, to be handled faster, because that one is likely to take place in existing erm, council owned er, units at whereas the one at Craven Arms will require the, the building of a business development centre at Craven Arms, on part of the, on part of the joint development site between district and county, and the Rural Development Commission. Obviously a longer, longer lead in on that, erm, and, and the county would, clearly need to put some funding into the development to ensure that those er, those satellite businesses operate, and only when you fund those out of the rural economic development's initiative, but it seems to me to be important that we should ensure that businesses operating in the rural parts of the county have equal access to the facilities of business link and business advice. Two of course, operate within Telford. The recommendations er, Chairman, are that the, that we should support a payment of five thousand pounds to business link which we can find funds from existing resources that we've got. Erm, that the, that we should support the principle, we agreed the principle at the last meeting, in support of the business link and satellite in Oswestry, that we should sup support the principle of supporting a business link satellite in Craven Arms, and that we should appoint a representative to the business links board. Now the business links board will be er,cons constituted of nine individuals, three coming from the tech, three from the Chamber of Commerce, one from the County Council, one from the District Council, and one representative of the other district. [Jerry:] Okay, yes, [speaker002:] Mr Chairman, I, would like to slightly and trying not to be parochial, but having looked at the erm, figures, I, I just cannot believe that those are honest figures, I mean there are eleven hundred and sixty nine people unemployed in Craven Arms or something like that, and they've lost over a thousand jobs over the last few years, and erm, very few of those have been replaced. What that obviously means is that they've drawn from a very, from a very wide area and therefore, they, they've got the long, main industrial estate, which has thirteen factories, of which only three are occupied, and ten which are unoccupied, which are erm, in fact deteriorating. There's no maintenance, no rates, no insurances, they're in, they're in a sort of bad s or getting into a bad state, so I do feel that we should try and put some priorities behind this erm, particular business link in Craven Arms. I know the Craven Arms Town Council themselves are very keen on it, and they are going to invite the County Council to take part in the tasks, and I would very much hope that this Committee would support the County Council, doing everything they can to help Craven Arms and their particular erm, endeavours. [Jerry:] Thank you for that contribution. Any other comments on the general report? I think equally we would support because the previous figures shows that the er, erm, the problems elsewhere, Craven Arms has its problems, I hear [speaker002:] I, I, I could take you into in Craven Arms on this Wednesday morning and introduce you to more unemployed people than are shown on the register, I think [Jerry:] Yes, [speaker002:] you've made the point very well, [Jerry:] I can well believe that. [speaker002:] that erm, people don't necessarily go on this, but er, it's probably more or less typical of rural areas, where, where people just don't feel that there's any hope here. Apparently J P Woods had a very large female workforce, and a lot of those women were married and therefore not eligible to claim benefits when they're out of work, and therefore don't appear on the unemployment statistics. I mean, it, it, it is a very exceptional situation, and I don't want to be paro parochial but it's not as if other areas Quite right, well if it's, yes have got the same problem. I believe the problem is worse in Craven Arms that is shown up by the figures, [Jerry:] I think everyone would accept that, what we wouldn't want, is for the impression wrongly to be created, that we're favouring the Craven Arms higher than Oswestry. [speaker002:] No, no absolutely not, no absolutely not. [Jerry:] Oswestry's figures are, are worse. [speaker002:] I think Craven Arms, the thing Craven Arms actually want money so much as support. [Jerry:] Erm [speaker002:] I think they really do want the support, and they want the backing when they're negotiating with other, other bodies. There are so many bodies involved in this. We're spending, I assume that the five thousand pounds will be funded from this year's budget and will be spent before the end of the er, current financial year? [Jerry:] Yes, can we then [speaker002:] As far as J P Woods is concerned Chairman, erm, they may well have their workforce, and extended right up to Yes [Jerry:] Can we take them item by item then, do we agree the five thousand for business links from existing resources? Any objections to that? There's the supporting the business link at Craven Arms, which we've had that eloquent appeal, I don't detect any objections to that, and finally we need to appoint the representative on the business link board. Can I have nominations. [speaker002:] Can I propose yourself as the Chair of this Committee? Certainly, that's seconded. [Jerry:] Any further nominations?... I think the word is by acclaim is it? Not taking it out, or something. I'll do my best, er, I think I'm going out in London then aren't I, looking at the rest of the [speaker002:] of the lads of the Chamber of Commerce. We might, who knows, who knows? [Jerry:] Okay, well thank you very much, erm, where are we next? Government, yes, paper L, The Government of the European Union, it sounds good. [speaker002:] There is some ex I think exceptionally good news, Chairman, and, and something which I think probably if there was one, would write a bulletin around the Council at that particular meeting to ensure that all members are aware of what has gone on here. That there are three, three issues that have happened. The rural development area has been reviewed, the County and the work principally done within, within the planning division, the County has, has led a, a team of the County and District Councils to bid for the retention of three areas which the rural development division were proposing to drop from the R D A. Those three areas were erm, Whitchurch, they were Oswestry town, and Higham. Now at the end of the day the, we were not successful in the bid to retain Oswestry town within the R D A, but I think we will be able to define the boundaries of Oswestry town, and count, count the unemployment then, and it shouldn't actually create a problem in that area. What we have been successful at and particularly important in point of view is that we have been successful in keeping Whitchurch within the rural development areas, and, and retaining the status of the available which that gives. That is distinctly important when one comes under the five B, because what's ineligible in those areas. So that what we have now in Shropshire, erm, on the first of the maps, if, if the new R D A's within Shropshire, which shows one in the south of the county, one in the, in the Oswestry area there, going across into Ellesmere, and this with, around the Whitchurch area. I think, I think particularly important for Whitchurch, in keeping up the er, degree of confidence in Whitchurch that people will actually, er, are, are, willing and able and prepared to exist in the area. March has objected five B status, Chairman, we were delighted to hear this before Christmas, that the European Union had recommended that the March's bid for five B status be approved. Er, that means that the, that the, that area will be eligible for European er, Commission funding er, on, of fifty percent for eligible projects during the next six year period. It could mean bringing somewhere between about ten and fifteen million pounds into Shropshire over that six years from Europe, into, into Shropshire, not in the whole of March's area, but into Shropshire, during that period, to help projects in the rural west of the county. It's not all absolutely good news at the present time, because... the final boundaries of the area are not yet determined and we are currently in negotiation with the U K government about the precise boundaries of the five B area. The government, I, I find it somewhat disappointing that having put in what I think was an extremely good bid, I think having had that bid accepted at the first stage by government on their shortlist, having then had the bid accepted by the European Union, with the populations really that we submitted to them, we now find that U K government are actually trying trade back some of that population, and, and area coverage of the bid, to be able to use some of that spare capacity which they would generate within the U K, within the European population figure elsewhere within the country. I mean, I think something, Chairman, that we should actually seek to resist, given the effort that, that everybody has put into, has, has put into getting that five B status, into the west of Shropshire, and into Herefordshire. [Jerry:] Yes... Mark? [speaker002:] Er, yes, well, I'd, I'd, er, I'd like to make two proposals, first of all that we formally congratulate our officers for leading the team that er, put together this successful bid, erm, but I'd also like to say something about these concerns about the boundaries because it's Oswestry again, amongst mainly the sort of north of the county around Oswestry, which like with the rural development area, could be left out, and, of course, economic development doesn't stop at a parish boundary [LAUGHTER] people cross it, it's part of their economic activity [] and erm, I know that some of the sort of proposed projects put together for the use of this five B money, er, around the Oswestry area, are extremely desirable projects, er, and are achievable projects, and it would be a tragedy if er, if they were, if, if we failed to achieve them because of er, a kind of a bureaucratic dotted line which say you can't have the money because you're the wrong side of the line. Erm, I don't know how, what we can do, I, I would suggest that we er, the Council writes to the President of the Board of Trade, making representations in support of the original boundaries of the bid, and, and also writes to our M Ps, whose constituencies are involved in this bid area, asking them to support these representations, er, er, and do the best we can to make sure that the, the five B area is as we submitted it. Erm [Jerry:] Yes, thank you. This is a, probably an appropriate moment for me to, to refer to the letter I've received from John, who as you know, who's been served in respect in London, I, I, he's asked me to read the letter but it's fairly lengthy, and his first part simply reiterates the point which Bruce raised about the er, er, attack on the boundaries. He then goes on to refer quite correctly to the fact that apparently they're using the nineteen eighty one census figures, instead of the ninety one census figures, this could result in er, a reduction in the amount of the cash available, and we should resist that, I personally think that's less important. It is important, but less important than keeping the boundaries, that's only my view, and he along with Malcolm here, suggests that either myself or the Council or the Chairman of Council, somebody writes to the appropriate Secretary of State, to bring these matters to their attention. It would be helpful if we can say that this had all-party support, is there any problem with that? [speaker002:] Can I adjust my proposal then, to include the bit about the populations so that we can make representations about the boundary and the use of ninety one statistics rather than [Jerry:] Keith? [speaker002:] Chairman, I think this classically reinforces the argument for having regional government does it not? Because we're having this sort of interference from a central source, er, they're actually handling in collating and all the information related to bids has been made throughout the whole of England, and it's, it's just too, too large to control, and it's so unfair in the way that they will interpret different things from the remoteness of London, and I think it's important that, to notice too, that the amount of monies that have gone into the Scottish regions since the im part of the E C prior to the E U, and it's important to realize how much control they have actually have and how that money was dispersed. And we could actually have that in the West Midlands, should there be such a regional government ever emerges. Chairman, I must just say about other organizations, it is approved that they're going, part of the West Midlands region, is more better off than integral part of the region of Great Britain, or whatever, erm, if they've got money into their region, they jolly well keep it there, we don't know where Coventry is. That's exactly what I was going to say, Mr Chairman, it's, it might be as Mr says, or it may, it may well make matters worse, I don't think we should get into the debate on how the national government are doing, [Jerry:] No, this issue is one of the er, of what affects our County. We've got our point of view on this [speaker002:] Well we'd rather be talking to the West Midlands, Chair rather than fighting about where it's going throughout the whole of England, which is a slight difference, in geographical terms. [Jerry:] Anything else, yes? [speaker002:] Mr Chairman, I would just like to, to sort of add my congratulations to Councillor, because, I have heard from numerous sources, that our bid was extremely professional. I think the officers really are to be congratulated, and erm, one can't sort of guess what could have happened if it hadn't been so professional, but I suspect the fact that we won, what we've won, is a result of the professionalism of our and I really would like to congratulate I think [Jerry:] Support, and the list, I mean problem with line twenty three, reputation is involved. Quite a phenomenal achievement for the party to pool that number of quite diverse opinions together, professional, Country Landowners Association, all the District Councils, have done an excellent job of unity and cooperation, and I think that's very, very welcome indeed. And I can honestly say, along with most people I'm reluctantly coming round to the concept that the probability is that the county will cease to exist shortly, and there'll be hopefully not more than two other authorities doing the job we're currently doing. I must in honesty, wonder whether the smaller, reduced unitary [speaker002:] No [Jerry:] authority will have the clout to pull this sort of thing together but again, we are debating regional government, and we aren't debating unitary authorities. Anyway, thank you very much for the, you, you probably didn't hear all the reproofs on the radio, Steve, some about my er, radio staff bottle. I listened to it with great interest, and er, I thought again that the County Council was lead role was modestly but quite accurately described in that, fairly lengthy er, interview. And I've also found out that he's not interested in fishing [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jerry:] or bridge, the man's one intre two interests, work and er, rejuvenating his house, and his, and he doesn't cook even. Now, isn't shameful? Anyway, [speaker002:] , can I, can I just say, thank you Chairman, but could I just say on two three, I think that one of things that built the partnership was actually the launch of Ludlow, and that all those organizations were there, and helped part of the process, and I think one of the things we need to think about, Chairman, is now we've got that B status, even though we're arguing at the fringes, we've actually got it, is perhaps doing another event like Ludlow, to involve all the organizations that, that, that will be participating in the programme, to give them a, so that they feel a, a common ownership of the programme, they can put forward the projects they want, they feel they are part of the process. I think it's those kind of things which holds the partnerships together, and keep everybody good. [Jerry:] Right, well following that then, is it agreed that also we write to both the Secretary of State and our local M Ps, [speaker002:] Yes [Jerry:] putting our points of view, and we agree to say that they are with complete all-party support. [speaker002:] And, and Chairman, that we've had support, we've had a great deal of help from party in Europe and it's kept us informed [Jerry:] Yes, indeed, indeed, yes. Now objective two status in Telford, a happy story, but it's not as happy. [speaker002:] Well not as happy Chairman, because [Jerry:] There's still quite [speaker002:] as I said yesterday, if I was a betting man, I wouldn't have bet on getting anything actually, erm, and the partnership between the County Council and, and the District Council have put together the bid for objective two status in Telford. The original bid was for the retention of the er, objective status in the Telford and regional travel to work area, which is the whole of the region and Bridgenorth area. Erm, it became very clear that that, that bid erm, was in fact, at an early stage, that that bid was not, did not have a realistic chance of being successful, so as, as you know Chairman, when you went on the delegation to see er, Mr in London, actually at that meeting, er, the members of the delegation said to the Secretary of State, well, we recognize, Secretary of State that it's the wrong area, what we'd like to really argue for is a bid for the urban core out in Browsley, erm, in, at the end of the day, we didn't even quite get that, but what we did manage to get was objective two status for the urban core of Telford still, and I think that was probably against the odds. Whereas I always felt that we would get five B, I didn't feel confident we would manage to retain any objective two, and, and the partnership in that area have managed to retain it. [Jerry:] On that, I think it is generally known, that we, that Telford wasn't anywhere near the top of the list, and it had been taken purely on the question of the er, needs of the various areas, it's unlikely that Telford would have succeeded, even with its reduced geographical area, but I made discrete enquiries and was told that the factor which tipped er, the Commission in favour of Telford, and this has an important bearing on what we're going to discuss later, was the fact that Telford has been very good in taking up schemes and providing their section, and not just the Wreakin District Council, other area, other bodies in Telford, of getting good innovative schemes off the ground and providing the cash, they didn't, as some areas did, get the status, and then hardly do anything about it. Now, I think that's significant for us when we start looking at our own response to what we're doing, both in objective two and in, more importantly in five B. You will, you note the recommendation... and again thank you for general support on that issue. Item fourteen, rural economic development initiative. Are you ready. [speaker002:] Yes, Chair, it's er, remember at the, the last meeting we touched on the first part of the report, the worry about the issue of closing shops, and rural post offices and garages, and there's considerable interest from all members er, as to what could be done. What we've come forward now is, through is a series of proposals, now these would apply to all, all of these, there was some concern at the meeting that we didn't of them, which appeared to have no, no chance at all as I told you, so all of these issues would actually apply to all of them, but the kind of things that are talked about, is trying to get a, a standard of systems throughout Shropshire so we need the importance of the way they, they sell a fruit shop within, within a, a rural are a rural village. Erm, where the, the authority, not just the County Council, but the authority in the partnership, get involved in lobbying exercises with the, with the government to try to ensure that rural post offices can actually give out vehicle licences, because it's very, if you look in the north of the county, outside the towns there's only four post offices, I think, that can actually give out vehicle licences, and yet in the rural areas, we have a lot of people with vehicles, and we, and the way that it counts towards, the way that it counts up towards a post office's survival, it's these high value items are significant in keeping post offices open. That we should work with the R D C in helping to develop management skills in, in the village shops, that we shouldn't see whether we can't use the village shops as tourist information points in the area. You know, there are a string of the things of this kind of nature to try to make village shops er, more viable to try and ensure their survival. Erm, there's just one item which m might be added, or perhaps our representatives on this body could take it up some time, and that's the amount of deposit which is needed by the post office from er, new tenants, I don't know if they're called tenants, or licensees whatever, to run rural post offices. I believe that if the post office changes hands, that's quite a crucial time because the newcomers may have to put up front quite a large sum of money. I know this was the case in an Oswestry post office, although it was a, on, on a suburban estate where there had actually been er security problems, or pilfering problems there. But perhaps you could look into that. [Jerry:] Well thank you, er, yes. [speaker002:] Erm, may I just add also, that, that it's, it's my feelings that the security aspects of rural post offices, the face that we're giving out advice into given problems, er, I know in my particular area, we had a, a post office erm, kitted out, erm, there were tremendous costs involved in the security aspects in that particular post office or sub-post office. And I think you'll probably find that that is going to be a problem in rural areas. Not that I don't wish it to carry on. You know, to be aware of the situation, It's something the loans scheme could actually look at, I should think. Look at the whole thing and if they want to take out we should offer to help them Finance the security [Jerry:] Yes, yes, sort of a one-off payment, an ongoing, erm, response. Any other comments? We do need to appoint our representative, or aren't, we haven't reached the Whitchurch initiative yet? Alright, sorry... [speaker002:] Right, Whitchurch seven, the, the report they want, where we're getting to and there is an appendix at the proposals of course, for developing erm, a forum for Whitchurch er, with a range of activities that we could undertake to try to regenerate some confidence in Whitchurch. I see us moving more and more, towards what I call these kind of targets of activities, we've got the Victoria Ward [cough] in Ludlow, we've to the er, the Whitchurch initiative, there's something going on in, in Lud in Ludlow at present which is particularly education, social service linked at, but at the end of the day that's also about jobs, two jobs of training, and perhaps one of the ways in which we solve er, land issues erm, and, and of course Craven Arms is now, is now coming up in each profile as needing something done, and I'm also being approached about the East Water Block Coking where there are particular problems in those areas. The Whitchurch one is probably the second most advanced one now after the Victoria, Oswestry ward, but the Oswestry, sorry the Victoria ward instead of Oswestry, and there is a, a, a need, I think Chairman, that I think will be very close now to, to forming a, a, a joint consortium to look at, which goes between the County, er, the District, the Town Council, the Tech, the Rural Development Commission, local businesses in Whitchurch, the local Chamber of Commerce in Whitchurch, to try to pull everybody together, to pool their efforts and resources for the town. And, and, and there is the need to appoint, er, three representatives, Chairman, to serve upon this Committee, on this Whitchurch forum. [Jerry:] With regard to the three representatives, can I propose from the Chair that we split them very conveniently, one Liberal, one Labour, and one Conservative. Is that agreed as a fair way of proceeding? Right, fine, nominations? [speaker002:] Well, then I propose Jack for our group, Certainly I've got a convoluted proposal, people [LAUGHTER] [Jerry:] Well, I, I, if I can anticipate, it's quite possible for Arthur to be in another two groups, to er, notify us who their representative is in due course [speaker002:] in writing [Jerry:] The same applies to our Conservative members, let us know in due course. Okay. Livestock studies, whatever that is. [speaker002:] Yes, just for information, Chairman [Jerry:] Yes [speaker002:] erm, really the other items are, the other items on the report are for information apart the child care links. [Jerry:] Yes we need a, we're spending money again. If we're spending much money, Bruce, it'll be as big as this er, code before we get any. [speaker002:] Well, I think we may actually be able to get some of it actually with support towards it, if we play it right, because other things are particularly important that we support organizations which are trying to solve the problem of women returning to work when they have children, and to cre so that they can create the mechanisms that the children can be looked after, after school and during the school holidays. And in, in a sense, it's trying to use an economic, it's, it's because they're, they're setting up child care organizations, people employing child care, it's, it's creating an economic development solution to the social problem. A hopeless Mr Chairman, it's just, just the sort of reason why we didn't su didn't support spending eight thousand pounds on, on some low pay unit, this is just the sort of thing that we feel that, that Committee's money should be spent on. [Jerry:] Well we welcome the latter part of your comment, I was going to make a wisecrack about this is our idea of getting back to basics, family values, but I don't want, [LAUGHTER] I'm going to stay out of it []. Malcolm, you indicate [speaker002:] Do you, do you happen to know, will this service give benefit advice as well, because the, the budget which introduced a, an allowance of a kind for, for child care, is actually quite complicated, and, and it's kind of er, an amount of income which can be disallowed before Family Credits are calculated and it, it, it involves a new kind of benefits trap as well, and I can see people needing quite a lot of advice about how to get it, and, and when not to get it and so on. [Jerry:] I wasn't aware of that problem [speaker002:] Yes Can something, but if they don't do something which is suggested yes, yes, [Jerry:] Well, there is general agreement on the free counselling for families, thank you. Any other points? [speaker002:] Chairman, could I just mention to the Committee, on Shropshire child care links, erm, the County Council of course, is also the registration body that erm, registers childminders and day care, and erm, while obviously this is very much to be supported and ties in with Social Services' own requirements to promote child care, it should not be seen, and we should perhaps, Bruce make a, we can have discussions with, we should be careful to endorse, the giving of this money doesn't necessarily imply or endorse the standards of the people on their books, who may be people that the County Council in another arm, are investigating and in some cases, taking action to close down. So, we just need to be clear that er, we're not actually endorsing the list necessarily. [Jerry:] Right, Paper M which follows. [speaker002:] There, there is no Paper M. That's the economic development strategy. [Jerry:] Sorry [speaker002:] Erm, the problem [clears throat] is that this should, this agenda was prepared over the Christmas period basically, and, and we started on the preparations of an economic development strategy in, in accordance with the way we'd done it before, which was basically a strategy of what we were going to do ourselves. And it did seem to me that in the light of, erm, of the single regeneration budget, on the light of the need to be developing a regeneration strategy for Shropshire, perhaps the role of the County Council in this affair should actually be, er, as, as the local government for the county, should be to look at preparing a, a regeneration strategy for the whole county, at which the work that we do to economic development is one of the pillars of support as is the work that the districts do is another pillar of support, as is the work of the R D C and the objective five programme, and all the various other bodies that are involved in, in economic development and similar activities in. So really starting towards looking at the different nature of strategies the new one would have. It would enclose within it, a traditional economic development strategy for the work this Committee's helping, but it should look in a wider issue, and seek to influence wider, wider things that happen within the county. And it should have a view on, on issues like education and transport, and those kind of things because they're all critical to the long-term future of economic viability within Shropshire. What I was going to suggest then, Chairman, in the light of, in a sense a change of, a change of thought by me over the Christmas period, in a way it's probably best it happened, is to ask if we could, because I'm, I'm keen that, this kind of different kind of strategy, there is a, there is a member ownership of the strategy, rather than just put something to you, that you would then have to, you know you, you have the paper in front of you, it's a thirty page document, and you decided is actually to suggest that you have actually a, a, a member group of, of, of a few members, perhaps three or four members, erm, to actually work with me on this, in the development of that strategy, so there was actually a member involvement, because it's straying more into the political field. There is a member involvement in the process of developing that overall strategy, in, into the kind of Shropshire that we would wish to see in the future. [Jerry:] Any comment? [speaker002:] Well, I, I think it's a sound idea, I think it's sad at a time of local government reorganization when we're likely to see authorities getting smaller, and yet the, the issues won't get any smaller, and the new authorities may well be having to look at ways of getting together with their neighbours to look at strategies which cover areas of the sort of size of the old county areas, and also getting together to, to, to meet, erm, organizations which will still on county-size boundaries, like Techs, and, and similar. So, yes, I would certainly support that we look into this proposition. Doesn't that make a mockery of smaller unitary authorities? Well, yes [LAUGHTER] Of course it does, we look at the guidance notes, and they say things like the police and the health authorities want erm, larger units the size of the present County Council, I'm sorry to go on. [Jerry:] No, no, you don't have to apologise to me. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [cough] You know I can't help it. It, it highlights the need for us to take a rational approach does it not, to er, the local government review, and realize that cooperation is essential between all parties concerned for the best interests of Shropshire as, as a whole, the people of Shropshire as a whole. It's very important. [Jerry:] I'm, I'm, I'm resisting temptation to get involved in this debate. Let's stick to this concept, I, I welcome it, I think it shows good thinking on the part of our officers and I would like to suggest that er, I take er, a back seat on this one, and I, I, I'd feel probably, set up a sub-committee, I would think four or five is ample, and I would like to propose that Malcolm chairs this meeting, so that we have a fresh brain and a younger brain, looking at the future's problems. How do you feel about it? [speaker002:] I still think the P A G is probably about the right size body isn't it? [Jerry:] How many in that? [speaker002:] Seven, I think [Jerry:] Seven, a bit big I would, I wouldn't go bigger than five, you get through a lot more business with four or five. Still, I don't, I don't mind. [speaker002:] You do want it cross-party? [Jerry:] Absolutely, absolutely. [speaker002:] I'll second it Two, two, two, two, one, yes [Jerry:] Two, two, one and, and the groups tell us who the representatives are, and I, I won't serve on the committee, I think I'll er, that I'll, you've given me enough to do anyway, there's a limit, and unlike our officer, I do have to do some cooking. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jerry:] You'll never live that down, then Frank [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] Yes, I thought that was a bit of flab that we've got Do you get a better breakfast at school? [Jerry:] Right, on the other comments on this strategy, [speaker002:] Could I just say to Chairman, [Jerry:] Yes [speaker002:] I, I, I could do with knowing those, those, the names fairly quickly on that one, because, mhm, get started on [Jerry:] Yes, and get some dates, yes, yes [speaker002:] that exercise to produce something by the end of January, consultation. [Jerry:] Right. Erm, Training for Work, Paper O, it's for information isn't it? [speaker002:] Right Chairman, yes, the report's for information, there are a few things to update, occupancy remains healthy, erm, [clears throat] the working total has fallen slightly over the Christmas recess, but erm, really by ten there. I have put into the report that we did erm, sign contract variations on, on Friday last week, which will have regularized all the training we're doing, so we're now in the comfortable position where erm, people wanting to add a further right hand column to that table there, erm, we've now got contracts which cover a band of two percent of the training. In other words, we get paid for it, [clears throat] and er, that's very satisfactory. Erm, over the page, the section, and the session, training needs position, erm, the erm, the work of the consultants has been completed, and we've still not got a report from Tech or any indication of, of erm, what their reaction would be to the, to the report which comes out. Erm, so it's still a... issue on this. Erm, leisure services product, erm, project erm, closure, really that was an opportunity to erm, to close the loss making element of provision without cost, and in view of the erm, rather poor outlook for maintenance work for the next contract year, it seemed sensible for us to do that. Erm, likewise there's still been no formal response on training travel budgets from the Tech. Erm, I'm not in a position to add anything very much to the article for next year, I spent most of Friday afternoon with the Tech last week, erm, but there's still obviously a good deal of uncertainty about programmes for next year, erm, what I think has been very positive is that we have now er, this year for the first time since the Tech's formation, they've started to discuss some of the issues about the programmes with a group of providers. Good We hope that that will lead to improved programmes. The Tech is not expecting to have their budget levels set erm, by the government until towards the end of this month, which means that once again er, there is going to be a rush to get contracts in place before the old ones expire. On Community Action, this is an employment service programme, er, it's got off to a very slow start. Erm, [clears throat] on Friday, there were only six, erm, trainees on the programme. Erm, but quite a lot of work had been done, and there are another twenty four classes going to be this week, erm, staff recruitment is complete, staff training is complete. On the staff side we have recruited nine individuals, er, but since we've lost three members of staff at the same time, that is a net increase of six, and since most of them are part-time, there's actually only three full-time equivalents, we've been able to do that entirely within the we had on establishments at work. Erm, I think the next item that requires an update is redundancy in paragraph eleven, erm, Walters at Ludlow are updating their Bishop's Castle factory, erm, in the last week in February, with a loss of seventy three jobs, arrangements have been er, now made for the first erm, redundancy counselling and job search support course, to start on the twenty fourth of January. Erm, the employment services has agreed to fund that entirely, so it's not erm... the company's not having to make any contribution towards it, and very probably there will be a second course a week or two later. Erm, there's also been progress made on, erm, army redundancies. The first pilot residential course has been planned for the twenty first of February, and it's going to take place at C O D at Donnington, and subject to that course working out successfully, erm, the employment service in the army will be working on this, the employment service department asked to deliver the army to post six more courses erm, next year. That's the next financial year. Progress has already, has also been made on erm, the army's pressed for County Council support to launch their Best Trained Workforce of Britain promotion, and, and a day's been set, the twenty second of April, far forward. Erm, in paragraph thirteen, Invest in People, the target date for er, achievement in the award has been delayed from the twenty seventh of, sorry the twenty eighth of February, until the twentieth of May, and the reason for that has been staff effort required to get community action going. It seemed far more important to out and the programmes on the top line, and then the icing on the cake, which is community service. Now, that's all Chairman, the report is for information. [Jerry:] Thank you Lance, any comment, questions? I think we should er, minute our approval of thanks to the Tayman team, they are, I think accepted as the most efficient and the best training managers in the County, and it's nothing we do, it's everything that the officers and the staff do. Okay. Item seventeen, Paper P. [speaker002:] The Central Sc Screen Commission, Chair. Erm, film's big business, to get a film to come into your area, you spend a lot of money, and it's direct expenditure of the local economy on a combination of food, and provision of supplies, and if it's the right type of film, it can encourage tourism in the medium and long-term. The big cities, New York, London, and Liverpool even, can afford to have units set up to encourage the production of films and videos and so on in their areas, in fact there was a report in last Thurs thirtieth of December's Shropshire Star about Liverpool's office. A hundred and fifty films, television and video productions they've attracted in four years. We obviously can't afford to do that, on that scale, but what we can do, is fund into the regional scr er, screen commission at Birmingham, to their register, where they will hold details on what's available, er, what houses, what large houses are available, things that can be set in, what lo what er, countryside there is, what facilities there are, what firms there are locally that can provide services to for a cost.... Excuse me. Now, it's obviously a bit of a gamble, we might give them some money, we might not get anything from it, but we might get a major feature film, or a major television series, which would be very worthwhile indeed. They have asked for two thousand pounds, the Centre have asked for two thousand pounds from all County Councils, but I know that they would accept less if we negotiate that, a lower figure. So erm, the report asks the Committee for their views, because I think it would be a worthwhile thing to do. Well I feel fairly positive this Chair, I look forward to when Brookside is replaced by Victoria Ward, [Jerry:] [LAUGHTER] We've got our own Brookside. [speaker002:] Oh, right, erm, I think Shropshire's well placed for this sort of work, I remember when Shrewsbury was, was chosen for Christmas Carol, I mean not Stratford, not Chester, not the obvious places that spring to mind, but somewhere different, and I, I think Shropshire may be full of places which are not the obvious place, but which film companies may be able to find if they're shown in the right direction, so I would certainly propose that we, you know, follow this line. [Jerry:] Yes [speaker002:] I feel, Mr Chairman, Shropshire is the obvious place. Erm, some film producer sitting in London, thinks of a rural county, he'll probably think of Shropshire, and I think this is typical example of how we can dribble away our scarce resources on a couple of thousand here, a couple of thousand there to other bodies, erm, I am, I'm, I'm against this proposal, we'll keep our money for essential items. [Jerry:] Mm, well, bread on the waters if not on the waters of the Severn, any other comments? [speaker002:] I think Chair, you have to speculate to accumulate don't you? And if you don't, not prepared to promote yourself, then nobody else is going to do it for you, and this is an ideal way of doing it, at, at fairly minimal cost. I would I think we could promote ourselves, Mr Chairman, but what I can say is that I'm against contributing to all these West Midland bodies that probably won't, won't give us any help at all. I, I, I think Chairman, that I, having to put very good money after bad doing it this way, I think it's perfectly true, people think of Shropshire as a rural county, and I think film producers will be people erm, if they want to come here they will and it's hardly Council business, taking huge amounts erm, well known production, but er, quite often major films have been [Jerry:] Well, I suspect today didn't ever change anybody's [speaker002:] well, no [Jerry:] opinion, so if I take Malcolm's, yours, is it a motion that we support the recommendation, is that seconded? [speaker002:] Yes, [Jerry:] You will presumably, right so those in favour of the recommendation, show [speaker002:] One, two, three, four, five [Jerry:] Against? [speaker002:] Four against. [Jerry:] At least if a film does come, we'll see that, if the cameras come in anywhere, we'll see that all-party representation on it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jerry:] I'll get a job as an extra. Where are we? Erm, eighteen isn't it? Yep, liaison with Wolverhampton, well. [speaker002:] Promoting Tech. [Jerry:] They need promoting. I think the, the university are always welcome to, always welcome people who, who're interested, and if anyone wants to have a sort of, look round, I'm sure it can be arranged. They're very keen that people should know what they're doing. Item nineteen, annual conference, next [speaker002:] Chair, erm, every year we try and hold er, an event or something of interest to the local business community, to local industries, and we have contacts with local freight-forwarders, banks and companies that have exported, embassies, and we're proposing that we erm, hold the event this year on the subject of exporting and how to do it, because we've had very many small companies that might be clueless and want to know erm, exact nuts and bolts of it, so if we could run an event on that basis, and then use that event as the core of a group to take across in this case, Ireland, but perhaps in the future, Holland, who knows where else, to actually sell, using the services of erm, the Embassy in Dublin, our Embassy and the Chamber, with whom we have very good links, then it would be to the benefit of our businesses. Erm, we have experience of this, erm, or officers do, from other authorities, and many small companies are fearful of going out there and exporting. But if they go once with a group, they then go a second, and third and fourth times by themselves. Then we've done our work, I would say that my average of ten company representatives went over, perhaps two would find it was useful, useful fact finding mission, but it didn't achieve much, two would click instantly and have orders while they're there, and the remainder would over the period of six or nine months later, if they worked at it, gain orders or perhaps, perhaps more importantly agents or distributors to sell their products for them in that country. It need not cost, cost the County Council anything at all, right, the combination and so on, we can do it for relatively low cost, and may get financial support, it's a, it's something worth doing to exploit the links that we have with our Embassies and Chambers of Commerce abroad. Sorry, that's my view of commerce, it's an unlimited view. [Jerry:] Right, comments? I think it's a very welcome initiative. [speaker002:] I'm absolutely amazed Chairman, in Ireland, [Jerry:] Yes, indeed, yes, yes, mind you, we make a lot of Guinness in, in Acton you know, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jerry:] you know, we make it over here. Okay, well, we agree the er, the recommendations. [speaker002:] Yes, rural development, new designation, yes. This is actually the detailed report of the new R D A and the R D T process which is going ahead this week, and also to the Planning Committee. Erm, I think that the most important point within the, the er, report Chairman, is in paragraph erm, three four, where the Rural Development Commission are, are saying very strongly that if there's more than one area designated within the county and there are now three areas designated within Shropshire, in the past there was only one R D, R D A area, that it all runs through, there are now three separate R D A areas, the, the R D, the Rural Development Commission are recommending very strongly that if you do have that, then they should be managed by a single R DP Committee. And I think I would recommend that, that we support that line. The reason for it is that resources are likely to be allocated to the individual R D P committees, on probably a per capita basis, and if you do that say with a small R D A like the Whitchurch one, it will just barely be possible to do any projects within that area, given the level of resource you've got. So you're better having it within one pool, and then you can decide locally the way your priorities lie within the area. [Jerry:] What are the mechanics of, of setting up the, the new body? [speaker002:] Well I think it'll probably, in Shropshire terms, largely follow on the existing body, in which there are two County Council representatives on the existing R D T, and I would expect that to continue. I think one's yourself as Chairman of Planning. [Jerry:] That's right, any problems with the recommendation?... Good... next, Otis Centre, Shrewsbury. [speaker002:] Shrewsbury request Chairman. Erm, members will be aware of the at the bottom of Abbey Foregate, opposite the Abbey which work is currently under way on, erm... initial discussions with County Council officers from E E D department led to some suggestions being made. Shrewsbury and Borough Council have taken up the flagpole, have decided to spend a considerable amount of money on providing a visitor attraction in those buildings, around those buildings. Develop will be erm, shown, but it is not about running it's about medieval Shrewsbury, many towns have these, the Yorvik one's been spectacularly successful, and has been copied in places like Canterbury for those that saw Songs of Praise last night, with even, erm, it is evident that this will be a new visitor attraction for the town with a generation of jobs, permanent jobs in, in that er, facility, it will improve the erm, appearance of main entrance into the town centre, very important in terms of attracting other people in the future, unfortunately the Borough Council haven't quite got enough money, or they tell us. They're asking for a donation of twenty thousand pounds, put that in the context of nearly say six hundred, six hund sorry five hundred and forty thousand pounds that they're spending, and maybe ninety thousand pounds English Heritage are spending, they're asking for us to fund the shortfall. There's a gap of twenty thousand. Now, if we say no, the project will still go ahead, but it will be slightly scaled down, and there will be a meeting later this month to decide how to revise the spec erm, it's possible for example, that the lift to allow disabled visitors to the first floor would not be included if the twenty thousand pounds weren't forthcoming. However, erm, it will go ahead, with or without county funding. It will be enhanced with county funding which will be met by capital funding. [Jerry:] Well my own view is subject of course to our budget. Not being too vicious, is that I hesitate to support this, until we see what the level is. [speaker002:] Could I just add to that Mr Chairman, that all major local businesses have always, have also been approached for er, sponsorship of this project. It's too early to say yet what the response will be. But I personally, certainly hope that quite a substantial money will come from the local businesses. [Jerry:] Mm, mm, I heard an interesting programme on Radio Shropshire which talked about the tailed bat, which brought out the historical importance of the building, and I learnt one or two things that I didn't know, apparently one of the very early carvings, who plays Sidney I think, and yet, yet it wasn't er, destroyed until the next revolution took place. Quite interesting. Does anyone object to giving er, a comparatively small donation when you look at the, the total sum involved? Unanimous? [speaker002:] With the comment Chairman, the comment about erm, us having an involvement with the scheme, An acknowledgement an acknowledgement, and acknowledgement in a manner to be agreed, if that really is, I mean if we put our twenty thousand pounds to pay for the lift for the disabled or something like that, No, I think it's just, it's just to ensure that there's a recognition that there have been a number of partners, that have led to the creation of the project. [Jerry:] Well, to put it very crudely, in the current unitary authority debate they don't forget that we have helped. Sometimes the districts occasionally, but not always do. [speaker002:] If I may, Chair, sorry, erm, if it proves necessary that twe less than twenty thousand pounds is, is requested because local businesses come up with some of it, therefore we presume on that basis we [Jerry:] I bet you they'll find a way of spending it all. [speaker002:] I'm sure [Jerry:] Okay, perhaps the most important item that is the Paper U, which is the budget. Right. [speaker002:] Thank you Chair, er, obviously this comes at the end of er, of er, a series of reports where we've put back additional or complementary revenues and the last item, number T, talked about a twenty thousand capital contribution, er, the budget will bring all this together, and if I could just add one erm, update on the first page, where paragraph three, and talk about the provision resource allocation to this Committee being a reduction of fifty thousand from the community based budget. The Policy and Resources Committee on Friday considered the position that included a take, a potential take of fifty thousand for this Committee, and similar reductions from other committees, but which left the funding deficit problem of six hundred and seventy one thousand, and what the Policies and Resources Committee decided was to ask the committees, all committees to look at how this six hundred and seventy one thousand gap would be funded, and that that should include committees like ourselves which had already identified and had put into the guidelines for reduction, the full five percent reduction that had been requested to be identified early in the process. Fifty thousand represents about a five percent reduction. [Jerry:] So tell us which are these other committees have identified the five percent. [speaker002:] There were three, three Counties, Planning, Trading Standards and Economic Development. [Jerry:] Yes, but Trading Standards are part of Public Protection, and if you lump the whole of Public Protection, you don't get five percent do you? [speaker002:] No you don't [Jerry:] So we are the only Committee who are saving the, that's taking our budget globally as, I think, I think it's four point eight percent, if you want to be pedantic about it, but we are planning and that's the only ones, if you take that mode of view, and if we took, if we took training out I take your point [speaker002:] Okay, so these, these are the the fa the facts of the, of the situation, and one of the points about the strategy, er, and perhaps looking further, that was highlighted, was the use of carry forwards, which Chair's already referred to. [Jerry:] Ad nauseam [speaker002:] It, it is, it, it is seen as a possibility that if you use carry forwards as a way of finding the reductions, A you wouldn't actually reduce a service on the face of it, and you would also, it would also give you a chance to examine where those reductions in services could be found in the coming months, er, rather than take decisions immediately. So, I think that was one of the strands in the course of Resources' decision, that er, we should look and cast the net around again, just to see if there were any way of erm, of finding this six hundred and seventy one thousand without damage to the fabric of services. [Jerry:] Can I ask our officer to comment on what would be the effect of reducing our importance have on our, hopefully potential? [speaker002:] Yes, I, I, I think if I could, if I could slightly widen it in my answer Chair, if I may? And deal with the issue actually on the Economic Development Committee budget, because er, I mean in a sense, Economic Development Committee hasn't always played the game, you never know when you're being asked to identify target reductions by an authority, they have found those target reductions, so have the Planning Committee, so have Trading Standards. I mean, in essence it's the small committees at the end of the day which actually find the target and the larger committees at the beginning of the list which don't find them. Now, I know a sum of money of nearly twenty thousand may not seem a lot of money in total, it's not a lot of money in terms of, it can be quite a large sum in terms of doing things with economic development. In nineteen ninety two, three, er, we made er, we made a four percent reduction in economic development, a, a, about erm, about fifty thousand pounds. In nineteen ninety three, four we made a seventy one thousand reduction in economic development, and this year we're proposing to make a fifty thousand, there're actually cuts I think, that any committee of any council has made for the last three years. Erm, and I think Economic Development are actually contributing very fairly to the problems which are facing the County Council. Er, those members Chair, that were actually at the, at the consultation meeting with, with Industry and Commerce last week, actually heard the business representatives in Shropshire saying that the County Council does not spend enough on economic development. It actually should spend more, because it's community, it's helping to create the wealth of the county in the future, and that wealth of the county is what will pay for public services in the future. So there was, there's a lot of sections of the community out, out there in terms of the business community, who have actually indicated that the County Council should be spending more in terms of economic development not less, and they criticized the Commission in terms of identifying some of the reductions which they have made erm, as part of this year's budget alone. But the final thing that happened, if I could draw the point, Chair, is that in the, in the report on the budget strategy ninety four, five, the Policy and Resources Committee on Friday, paragraph thirty five says [reading] no provision has been made for the Council's contributions into the European objective five B programme, much of this will be, but some hundred and twenty five thousand pounds of revenue spending per annum is likely to be, is likely to required to match European and other partners' contributions []. Now of that hundred and twenty five thousand revenue spending which would be coming out of County Council to match what is likely to happen in the five B programme, most of that, most of that is on economic development activities, now the kind of way we can find that money without going to the authorities and asking for growth funding, because this Committee has not asked for any and that is not common in all the committees in the Council, is actually by finding it out of things like our monies, and other projects, actually funding it yourself as a Committee, funding the ability to draw in European money into Shropshire. Now if you take away er, another lump of money including carry forwards, you really do reduce your own ability to be able to pay to take advantage of the window of opportunity we now have to actually put European money into the county. I mean, it's a double cost whatever you take away, it's likely to cost twice as much because the Europeans will not put in the other half of the money. Is this the point where we, whether Dominic should be making contributions, you know, to give you an example. [Jerry:] I don't know [speaker002:] Well, Chair, erm, most of my money is under the Resources Management sub-committee, erm, that has been very thoroughly examined, I think the Resources P A G have agreed with me, on the other P A G, and John has written that on to search for saving what I would say, over and above the call of duty. He's done extremely well, and he has a number of reports and examined every possible area. The P A G resources, P A G met on Friday, and they found even further savings in the request to keep. Er, they've taken more carry forwards, in my department and the other central departments, er, they've taken more from building maintenance. So further reductions have been found. All my staffing costs for Smallwood are in that budget, and therefore I can promise Chair, that it would be extremely well examined. May I just point out to members that er, we are making, Smallwood are making a very considerable contribution this time. There is a twelve percent reduction in maintenance, partly because we sold some holdings, partly a cut in the service, it is a, it is a, it's a, it's a legal requirement to maintain the whole thing, under the terms of the agreement, and I'm also, because of the change in our, dropping our, a land agent, now that's a reduction of thirty three percent in the management of the estates, so I really am doing my best and resources quite rightly have held my noose in order to ensure that I do. [Jerry:] Any further comment? [speaker002:] Only to support Bruce in what he said Mr Chairman, that it is absolutely essential that we do keep some money after to take advantage of five B. I think you mentioned earlier on in the meeting that some authorities haven't taken advantage of European money and we don't want to fall into that trap. Absolutely, yes. It is worth just noting about it, totting up what we've voted to spend, Some of which we voted against There's a total of fifty eight thousand two hund hundred and eighty so far That we've actually voted to spend at this meeting [Jerry:] Er, I'm sorry I didn't quite get [speaker002:] I think we voted to spend fifty eight thousand two hundred and eighty pounds, at this Committee meeting so far. It's a pity in a way that we didn't have this discussion before, because I do think it's important and I think parties these days, goodness knows what we're matching is to, should be a bit and they want more, sort of less than putting in less fifty percent. Is that saying in another way that perhaps we should push this over to consideration onto the P A G, there aren't any meetings today, but there will be the V A T I suppose. Might have a committee, Chairman, [Jerry:] Yes, yes, the onus [speaker002:] You've got several new elements in which John 's recommended that unnecessarily ignore the situation. [Jerry:] Do we need a P A G though? Can we not reach conclusions today which I sense has some possibility of consensus? It really does come down to, I don't know, I mean, every year we play it very honestly and very straight, and we push him in a position where next year, if there is a next year, I think the last time that we played it straight we got clobbered, so let's pay a little bit less, and keep a bit back for when they come round a second time round. Last year was erm, an additional twenty thousand pounds at the last moment, chickenfeed for the big committees, that's the annoying thing, but what particularly annoys me, and I have to say this, I'll express it is the knowledge that what can be a phenomenal deprivation to this Committee, goes very, very, very little towards solving the major problems that this county faces, it doesn't have a tremendous impact. And yet the impact on us is considerable, and I'm seriously wondering whether the major spending committees ought not to look again at the budgets that they're erm, and I've discussed this with, and obviously education is the big problem, but er, I'm not convinced that erm, the sums of money which we're being asked to pay out, not be taken from the education budget without too dra drastic an effect on the school. Keith. [speaker002:] Chair, we have through this, what we've actually s what you're actually saying there, because I, I happen to be of the view that when you ask for identification of five percent across all the committees and then you start to take that quite happily from the smaller spend committee, then clearly you're in a position where you have to address the er, question, do we really want to provide this service at all, and that would be tragic in the case of economic development, because it's so vital to the erm, economic development of the county as a whole, and so, yes, there, I would suggest that there's clearly the need to be a corporate view, and a corporate er, er, will to actually put up resources at your disposal, er, er, especially since five B wasn't actually, although it was it hadn't actually been granted, so it was a bit of an unknown quantity when perhaps the first P A G erm, sat and deliberated. So clearly now, the, there's some merit in looking afresh at it in the light of five B, being able to match the kind of funding that's available there. The funding allowed. [Jerry:] Could we not agree today to ask the appropriate committee, whether it be Policy and Resources, the Resources Management of Regional Council, that when they're examining this question of the carry forwards, that they themselves review the impact that this will have on, on the benefits of five B for this County? Now, that's a positive thing. [speaker002:] Chairman, can I just venture to s to suggest that the Policy Panel will be the next move surely, Dave, yourself and the chief officers will be doing some formal presentation there and that clearly we need to take the strength from the vote in the Co in this Committee, to support what you've, what you've just said. [Jerry:] Yes, Policy Panel and Advisory Panel [speaker002:] Well yes indeed, but it covers the influence I, I would totally support the move that you're suggesting Mr Chairman, if we are asked to provide another one percent or whatever can be done, erm, I would suggest that the obvious way to get that money would be to offer them the ten thousand that we agreed to spend this morning. [Jerry:] Mhm, I like, on West Mid on West Midland's body, rather than on county bodies, that's not, [speaker002:] Yes, [Jerry:] not quite what I suggested, but [speaker002:] it is a point Mr Chairman, I'm sure it would be made, but I have, that I have made. Five B status would not of course been allowed if this Committee been sitting. [Jerry:] This is the first time [speaker002:] And yet I think it's the English Commission that abolished the English loans. Five B status is going to bring in two to three million a year over the next five years, the total cost of running the scheme is one point three million pounds, in effect we're a net contributor [Jerry:] And have been for years [speaker002:] And have been for years, because that doesn't take into account the money that is made when, when you know, when, when, sort of development that we have, we have run from home. [Jerry:] Indeed, Valley is one. [speaker002:] Yes, I mean it's er, sort of I think it's, our feelings are quite strong about this, in this contest that we're having with the Town Hall, that er, having exposed the five percent in the first place, we have had particular innovation about five B, being articulated as well. We are not subject at this juncture, to identify any further exposures, but that, I mean, that's what we're saying isn't it? Yes, it's not [Jerry:] Are we content that that goes forward or, I mean, I don't blame you for, having your little piece about the earlier things, but they really aren't particularly that issue that we're discussion are they? We're happy with that as a way forward? Right, the question of will crop up later on, you know if you haven't just seen the paper. Anything else you want to raise on this matter? [speaker002:] Chair, what will, what will happen is that er, there're, there are meetings planned for the Policy Panel on the twenty fourth and twenty fifth of January which will hear the views of all the committees in response to, to the request for P and R, that, that would then be translated into a final proposal for the budget cuts, which will go to the meeting of the Policy and Resources in February. And, my guess is from, from what is being said, is that the Committee will be, the Policy Panel will see this budget book that, with all that entails, and will hear that, although if you look on page three, there are still carry forwards in hand, that they of thirty thousand, er, the Policy Panel will be told that you, you've already thought of ways of spending er, I mean there's thirty eight thousand in total that we've talked about today, well erm, of, of that erm, fifty eight grant that erm, thirty eight of it is revenue, the other twenty thousand relates to the capital project of Centre. Erm, they'll take that into account, if the potential value of thirty thousand but, will state that, that there is really this erm, problem about how to much five B, erm, contributions. [Jerry:] Let me put it another way, if we lived in a magic world, and weren't having things like essays and package deals together, and any officer was being asked to forecast the money that would be needed for the sensible and, and virile implementation of five B, would you arrive at a figure of about thirty thousand pounds or not? Now, I'm not an accountant Bob, but you'd need way in excess of thirty thousand [speaker002:] Well income revenue of hundred and twenty five thousand a year to manage the potential for getting in on the partners plan. And if that goes into partnership schemes, it probably could be, it could produce three or four times as much money actually in production. [Jerry:] So we should be asking the other committees to look after their carry forwards, to give some of their carry forwards to us, to fund five B. And that's the logic of the issue, but it won't work that one, but at least we'll hang on to what we've got, I hope. [speaker002:] I think the other problem of course, Chair, with using carry forwards is that that just is a, a one year solution [Jerry:] Absolutely [speaker002:] that you've then got to deal with the extent to which you've used the ninety four, five, against the five, six one. So it's not one that really, really is a long-term solution. [Jerry:] Yes, [speaker002:] Erm, the, the only other item on, on the budget book at the, that I particularly want to draw members' attention to, is, are the pink funds, which are. Er, here the Policy and Resources Committee also consider that only brought on capital which again issue guidelines which will be reviewed, at the end of January for a final erm, proposal in February. And those pro the, the guidelines would, if accepted, enable schemes two and three to continue, on the basis that the capital receipts from the sale of the are earmarked for this sort of investments, and that these in their turn will generate a flow of capital receipts which can be ploughed back for the benefit of the to the totality of County Council's capital programme. So that was the, the philosophy behind that particular proposal, that where you've got development works, you take them out of the budget, and the bidding process, and try and get a rolling programme of expenditure and receipts, so that, if that's approved that would deal with two and three. On four, there was a proposal to establish a two hundred and fifty thousand pound contingency capital sum, against which bids could be made for schemes that would bring down action grant, and I would've su thought that scheme number four would be a bid against that two hundred and fifty thousand erm, contingency. Now what, what was left was a guideline for economic development other, of sixty five thousand, which happens to be equivalent to pollution prevention schemes at one, but was certainly not earmarked to anything in particular, it was just a guideline that they were thinking of, and I, I think it would be a help to Policy Panel and Policy and Resources Committee, to obtain a response to that non-identified sixty five thousand pound item. [Jerry:] This pollution prevention, is this at smallholding? [speaker002:] In in indeed Chair, yes. [Jerry:] Do you want to comment on it? [speaker002:] It's, it's a r it's an ongoing programme where they have sixty five thousand in, into er, deal with small problems, problems of a capital nature, but the far fixed er, man is pollution prevention, which is basically a legal requirement to stop effluent going into the stream and the like. We don't spend it unless we have to, we seek to persuade the tenants to contribute towards it, indeed even if we contribute, we get a rent back on it. So we do our best with that. But with the sales of that are going on, there are needs to move tenants around and make alterations to boundaries and buildings, as we split up holdings, so I would say Chair, it's essential that we have something in the kitty to do this work, I mean, it's obviously far exceeded by the capital receipts that the revue is generating. Well does that help you? [Jerry:] Well I think I'm, covered around the heating out, you ain't going to get anything out of the juice in the pollution prevention basically. I don't think we, we can. [speaker002:] Well, what I think Chair, all, all that you can say to the Policy Panel then is, they take their recommendation on to

[speaker001:] Recording in Edinburgh on the evening of Friday the fourteenth er contributors contributors [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and see the... sheet number one in terms of context government area from Mrs. [speaker002:] terms of sponsorship The first subject is sponsorship. Well does it act? Does it, does it act that question, does it act in the modern way and if it does how much does it act in the modern way. I mean you must see it yourself. Okay there must be a reason for doing this, but er I'm more concerned with getting oil out North Sea. How can it help me do my job? point of view the reason is that it can help you do your job is very simply that to involve members of the public er local councils, local authorities, decision makers and allows the outcome to, to erm entertain them and to erm hope for and communicate what it is they'll come erm in a non-threatening, non-selling, non-hard sell environment where they can come along, they can enjoy themselves and go away and form their own opinions without somebody over the head with what they're try to sa trying to do erm I suppose while this is for me... cos on the sponsorship issue is, would sponsorship have any impact in terms of what I might purchase... so... if I went to the Scottish Opera or the ballet or to the theatre... and I bought a programme which I usually do and one of the things which is interesting about the evening that erm Alan and I spent last time at Scottish Council was that half the people attend Scottish Opera buy a programme... and the programmes that I have sponsored always. Would I then purchase their goods as a result of a programme being sponsored by that company? Now I cannot think of a single occasion over the years, my adulthood when I have been going to theatre arts events of any kind when I've actually gone out and bought anything as a result of sponsorship of a programme I've been looking at. Now I, I mean I, okay I'm only one person, I mean is round the table is there anybody who can say that if... [speaker001:] Quite for me it depends on... i i in a sense I think it's perhaps more subliminal. in simply why not and simply hoping that someone's gonna go out and buy your brand of petrol for example erm I think for me it's... erm... there are so many messages flashed at people every day erm do this, do that, buy our product instead of X and X's product but when you've paid, when you're faced with that purchase decision, and I, I would say perhaps this is true for most people from most jargon. I think erm... if you shopping performance the week before and if the programme have been sponsored by Kellogg's Cornflakes then it's possible that if you were in your local erm Sainsbury shop and were faced with a number of alternatives to buy, there is possibly a chance that you can buy Kellogg's Cornflakes. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] It's, it's, it's very desperate and I'm not saying that you would do it back because of that, but it may just be the thing that influences you to buy a particular brand, particularly the things which are heavily erm which have many alternatives to buy. I mean er imagine you the programme should be really sponsored by soap, soap companies [speaker002:] Alan what I I don't know the answer to what you're proposing I really don't know the answer and er I mean I can only go on the, my, my experiences and my experiences are I've never ever... consciously or not aware of ever having bought any as a result of [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Now interesting because erm... one of the things I did before Christmas was I went out to and it I think it's my memory it's sixty percent of Scotland is, is, gets its power from nuclear power Sixty per cent of the Yeah central group does yes Yes and that means forty percent doesn't it if you know what I mean so we can make an assumption that Hydro Electric comprise a chunk of that convention Yeah a convention. So therefore was there anything for me as a consumer go along to the theatre, have a back programme that has been sponsored by Hydro Electric to use the bad example. I mean it makes no odds does it? No. I mean I think the message that they were communicating last was that it's about them being appearing to be a good Yes, but the interesting thing in last night's He said and I don't think that they were meant to be... perhaps they were meant to be in order of importance. The first was the reason for sponsorship was visibility and publicity, the second social responsibility, the third brand development with special reference obviously to the drink companies. Corporate hospitality to be seen to be involved and to win awards. Now my view is that I think rather like your comment on Christian doing concerts, Scottish Amicable er Standard Life... Scottish Hydro, Scottish Power, Scottish Nuclear... I don't necessarily see it as making... influence to make a decision to make a purchase or to recommend a purchase to the third party in another part of Scotland Right but I do actually think that one considers they're playing a part in the community. Now the part they play in the community depending on your political statistical or whatever leisure interest viewpoint may be that you think they haven't got the combination right... but that's obviously a very subjective thing, but I think that I mean the visibility and the social responsibility implements I would have thought are... two of the most important for people. Well I have to say that as a result of last night's session I have a much healthier view of Hydro Electric and I do... so would I have got that from the programme? See what I mean? I mean we were in a particular discussion last night I mean that chap was making a particular point and we were able to ask questions and that was very useful and it helped everything else and as a result I have a view that Hydro Electric have a certain commitment to the community and I respect it for having that commitment.... I was particularly impressed with the comments that Mike was making about organization makes to charity which it doesn't acknowledge, it doesn't sort of er seek to publicize erm but I wish programme Yes, they rationalize but I wouldn't have got that from a programme. But you see one other person who was there last night was at one time involved with a major, no longer major Scottish company which did all its substantial charitable giving anonymously once a year... through its lawyers... because they decided that they did not wish to be publicly associated with any particular thing and then the representative from John Lewis said last night Yes that John Lewis doesn't publish its erm most of its charitable giving either and that they done quite a lot but that surprised the man in the queue and yet interestingly I think that and she said I was right in my assumption that that is part of the partnership philosophy of John Lewis that they work in partnership with their staff and in partnership with the community and they make their profit which is generated to start through the community which they sell to and therefore they quietly give back without wanting to play their own trumpets and in a sense I think that's how it should be. [Peter:] From a personal point of view I think that charity, charitable giving by er companies whether big or small should be erm should be erm on that basis I mean they shouldn't be looking for acknowledgement but unfortunately in the real world companies are looking to see what we can get back in terms of the investment they make and [speaker002:] But especially Peter let's... let's think about people like ourselves and the kind of work we do. If you and I were working for an organization which gave say half a million to charity, our, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I'm sure our temptation would be... to... say how can we promote this giving in the media in order, let's be honest about it, to make our, us look good, partly that would be it. You know there we are the, the marketing communication P R people whatever we are... and so therefore if that organization we worked for gets published in the media, positive company But then you're back to the centimetre argument. Well no I'm not actually back to the centimetre cost I don't agree with the centimetre argument... er the centimetre argument I mean I'd rather have one good solid paragraph which Yes says a lot than twenty that said nothing. but that's right I mean when I Cos people don't read the nineteen centimetres anyway That was the interesting thing that said to Alistaire last night that... a three column centimetres depending on which periodical it is or paper it's in can do you far more good or damage than twenty at another. Mm [Peter:] It's about perception. [speaker002:] Yes. [Peter:] I mean most companies would rather the four centimetres or whatever over a or and says that says things they'd like to hear, than have erm... than have say er which basically [speaker002:] Provided they know that that's the game and the problem is I and I don't know about you Peter or, or you getting the manager's but I have actually worked for organizations where they do see it in terms of those centimetre arr erm measurements and that's a you know I mean it's funny when I've been giving talks on communications erm one of the things I say to people is erm where your stuff appears is crucial... don't worry about one and page three. Where it doesn't appear is crucial too. Mm. But I'll say is it on the gardening page, is it on the letters page, pray for the sports page I always say and people look at me quite you know with a quite a... look on their face when I sort of say that and I'm absolutely serious, I'll say you know if you get a four paragraph story on the gardeners' page, you're home. If you get a four paragraph story on the letters page, you're home, if you've got a full page or a two paragraph story on the sports page, you should go out and celebrate and, because those are the ones that people read and look at and that's what's important to them and that's you know that's that message that you. It's very hard to get that across to some people. [Peter:] But I think that's that is the erm educating managers and my, my own [speaker002:] Yes [Peter:] view is that one hopes that... my hopes are that of the direct report you er worked for erm is equal and competent and is erm in a sense courageous and brave and that they realize that sometimes to get the best results you have to do things which are perhaps challenging and orthodox [speaker002:] Yes [Peter:] erm... one of the best programmes that I participated in was a programme where yes, money was spent to get matter for bucks as it's called. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [] [Peter:] Get maximum press coverage and it looks good, but there is also equally a very considerable programme running, very gently sort of going at the community, working with the community, holding hands with the community and getting results erm... a policy for... for [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But it is one of the, isn't one of the other interesting things about the sponsorship... the potential, the partnership and empowerment as Mm opposed to the nation. I agree.... I mean it's interesting you're using that, that second you used erm empowerment... a number of people are saying to me you know that empowerment... is a word they have problems with. I have no problem with empowerment or I love the word empowerment, because I split it up empowerment [said as 3 words] increasing the power we all have, for God's sake what's jargonistic about that? I mean it's about sort of you know in... it's about [LAUGHTER] increasing the erm... where we are... within our own particular sphere and it's far too much... I mean people it's interesting that I mean for the, it seems to me an and once again correction but it seems to me the last five years the empowerment thing was really strong and now managers are moving away from it and saying it's jargon as a means of diluting it. I, I think I and,an and therefore taking away what [Peter:] work appear to be philosophy, let's go out there, let's do it individual, we can deliver the goods. Now because of the, because of the unemployment people are scared [speaker002:] Well then you change the words [Peter:] about changes you know [speaker002:] Yes, I know, yes but I mean it's interesting at lunch time I had a, I had a working lunch with someone and a month after we had finished all the work and stuff, we got on to a whole pile of other things and, and I was talking about some of the -ists and one of the -ists I was talking about was feminism... and how I'd been in an amazing meeting a few weeks ago where you know I used that word and the women, it was all a meeting with women, the women there had absolutely freaked at the use of the word feminism and feminists. Was that in gender or, or...? Yes. At the Yes. Yes. And... you know I, I actually had phrases like bra burning thrown at me... and erm... [LAUGHTER] I... I said that feminism to me is... about having the same opportunities as men and I put few of the phrases er er you know along those lines and so everybody round the table said well yes I believe in that too, I said well then you're feminists and so it's about valuing or devaluing words as well and you know you just made the point about changing words, but how far do we go with this? Do we get to the stage where you know you look at the word empowerment, do you change the, the use of the word empowerment because people are saying you know well that's jargon and all that doesn't work any more or can't do that any more. Well a case where you Or one other word which is to say that sponsorship is enabling because if you go into a partnership like A B S A it enables you to get the gov similar government funding. Now A B S A... show there's an organization called the Association for Business and the Arts and what that means that if an organization which has not sponsored something in the arts before decides to do so... the government will give a similar amount of money er at a lower ceiling of a thousand and up to a maximum of forty thousand was it? Mm. Yes... so that if for example a company called Twin Plugs or something says right we're going to sponsor a concert, because we're opening a new factory and we think this is special and we want to do something, we will put in ten thousand pounds. If you do it through A B S A, the government will give another ten thousand pounds so of course for the orchestra or the institution whether it's opera, ballet, concert or whatever is, but it must be arts... gets the extra money so of course that in a sense is very enabling. One of the difficulties that actually struck me last night about an organization like A B S A is that... how wide, and in fact I've got something in my filing cabinet next door which will tell me if I looked it up, how wide is the umbrella of the arts because we don't have anything similar for sport, we don't have anything specific You're absolutely right for young people and if one of the things that corporations to my mind have a positive duty to do which is the social responsibility and... we live in a society so increasingly fractured, rudderless and you know not so far away in places from anarchy that they have a duty to do things which effect maybe to see one the Bs not the A ones the Bs surprise Well then you don't know me [LAUGHTER] But in fact what they should be doing is planning effort into things which underpin the fabric of society and to underpin families Mm that's right and to deal with problems of substance abuse, unemployment, illiteracy, rather than things which are fashionable and to my mind highly like opera and the ballet which isn't to say that I don't love them both, but I think that you have to have a sense of complete reality about the social issues. But then that question was asked last night erm from one chap about sport versus the arts and I suppose to me it is a quality of life issue erm... where do you start an and stop I mean you have a problem when you have a recession don't you, where you say okay we i we are in a recession... we have got limited resources... we have to make decisions. We can cut money off, let's make some easy quick decisions about cutting money off, let's chop out the arts you could do that on one line easily and I think you have to look at the long term you have to look at what happens in terms of our culture, our civilization if you do do that, how people change and to me it's about... and that was raised last night too about how an saying that they had put a limit on the cost of opera tickets... forty pounds, compared two fifty two fifty price of the ticket? Yeah. Bloody hell, sorry And a minimum price in Glasgow of three pounds Fifty. so, so even if you're in the or whatever you know you could still enjoy a meal and so that is about making it special to everyone. [Peter:] I see that as a big change I mean I see that, I think that was coming without sponsorship. I think it would be to survive and to get the audience its erm its target audience was getting smaller and smaller [speaker002:] Mm. [Peter:] and it had to appeal to a broader group. I mean last time I was at an opera was erm I had these tickets now erm I took my sister and a friend of hers. Do you know what the total price of the tickets would have been if I had to pay for this, one hundred and ten pounds [speaker002:] Mm [Peter:] and there's no way I would have paid that. The opera was great, but I wouldn't have paid for that, I mean compared to rock erm a rock concert performance and most of the rock concert was twenty quid a ticket [speaker002:] Yeah, right [Peter:] you know what I mean? [speaker002:] I know what you mean. [Peter:] Er it's just I mean that is just ou a, a, a box we had dress circle tickets. [speaker002:] Then of course then you go back to government subsidies and whether or not they are, taxpayers are prepared to pay government subsidies, so the tickets don't cost the price you were talking about Mm. erm and of course you, I mean look at what you were talking about with rock. Okay as prices are cheaper, but you do have things like Coca Cola getting to those kind of things and everything else which you know where they might not to opera and it's because it's more popular and they know what they're doing. talking to huge Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies shouldn't sponsor ballet or opera, but I think they have to not lose sight of sponsorship potential with the disadvantages as well as the anonymous giving branch, because small amounts of money to some organizations may do disproportionately more than the Scottish Opera I agree with you But, but mind you I again and terms Scottish Opera I think issue Huge issue th th the Scottish Opera and the cultural organizations don't, don't think that I'm being very left-wing when I made my points Peter. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I also, I also actually said that a co a country that does not... promote and sustain its cultural heritage in the widest sense of its world w in a word e er i is a country without a history and if you lose your social history and your culture, then you can't progress Mm. which is probably very tried, but I mean if you imagine the whole of Britain with no museums, no concerts, no ballet and no opera none of these things, then you would be a very impoverished society. We certainly would. One of the tragedies to that it has now become so expensive but is very difficult but... not because it was sponsored but somebody told me the other night that the Billy Connolly programme [cough] excuse me Billy Connolly programme about art and culture was The Rome one Er yes, I mean Rome. It was very well presented and that whilst Billy Connolly freely admitted he was not in fact a culture vulture, it was his enthusiasm that in a sense having his own that make the programme apparently a complete and utter joy and in a sense that's what sponsorship should do, it should do for art, music, ballet and opera what Cousteau and Bellamy have done for the environment and Attenborough [Peter:] But er well you see but Billy Connolly brought an audience to that programme you would never have got [speaker002:] Mm [Peter:] Billy Connolly socialist people all switched on to watch that programme because they like Billy Connolly it. It's like the chap that did the opera, Harry Enfield did a series of opera programmes [speaker002:] Yes [Peter:] it was very clever, I watched the first couple because people who like Harry Enfield's comic characters switched on, just to see what he was like and before you knew it you were twenty minutes into a half hour programme and you stuck with it to the end. [speaker002:] That's right. [Peter:] And it's m and again it's all about opening things up, it's about putting in erm... getting someone like that and all that erm... [speaker002:] Interpreter [Peter:] Yeah, interpreter's the word, yeah. Er [speaker002:] You see to me there's an issue the power is cricket. Now I I'm your least sporting person, but I quite like a good test game and I was in Australia when Packer did the whole thing with what I call Pack a Ball one day cricket. Now I have friends in Melbourne who would never look at, be interested, go to a cricket match in their entire life. Pack a Ball introduced them to cricket. The go to one day games, they like the excitement, oh everything is wonderful. I, I compare test matches to more like the chess game you know it's slower and you sort of you know whatever... but these are people who would, did not to test games... you know they didn't sort of say okay we've now... met this Pack a Ball thing where you know and everything else. When I look at test matches the, the game, the one day game was an itself. Now making these points to and then to go backwards still about what we've been talking about and that is it's the same with the opera and what you were saying about Harry Enfield and everything else, that you can an and Billy Connolly, you can bring certain groups of people into areas where they wouldn't previously have been, but you will not necessarily take them on the next leaf so for example, this is all gonna sound snobby and I'm sorry but you know I mean a lot of people like Gilbert and Sullivan for example, but will not move on... to Bizet or whatever it is and will never do that... and I mean I have a problem with that I mean it, to me it's not we're not it's just reality, but we have to understand that I mean we have to understand that in the context of sponsorship [clapping] and about making you know the, the next step on survive. I mean I think you and say that you know I mean I think test matches are simply because you know over time, you know people are in to the one day cricket match, be the excitement and everything else and it's getting increasingly more difficult for television companies to get sponsorship, commercial sponsorship for But the thing that fascinated me last night was the statistic about Gillette... do you know they said when Gillette started [clears throat] When Gillette started doing the erm Gillette Cup, it cost them five thousand a year. They pulled out at a point not where the cost they thought wasn't worth it, but they pulled out because people associate and that Nat West's cricket now runs at one point two five million pounds One point two five million Well er and really with the bank's image of being what it is... you see I found I cricket really. yeah, I found I found it interesting last night because of course my reaction to all that was... imagine how Gillette... did it matter? Gillette with, with cricket rather than razor blades, given that when they were in the supermarket Gillette they would say that was it er er a friendly name. No, but no, but obviously no,th the association was only with cricket not with the product, so it wasn't enhancing the initial product So what it is they're saying you see the association wasn't being made it wasn't including sales. [Peter:] I mean there was a superb advert made by film director and he made a superb ad advertisement for Apple Macintosh Computers erm... it must have been about three or four years ago. Everybody loved the advert but couldn't tell you who the advert was for. [speaker002:] Well there's an increasing number [Peter:] Yeah, people could just switch off and then it Apple Macintosh erm I think with the Gillette decision was part of the Gillette seemed to reposition themselves in advertising to... to [speaker002:] Wonderful. I mean I erm there was a, I think there was a beer ad on television the other, the other day and at the end of advert they were advertising beer weren't they you know Yes, but you see and that's right, you know whatever it is, the Silk advertisements. Yeah. Because they're becoming so obscure now, that they're becoming an e exercise in erm obscures or obscurity or whatever in the same way into the same appalling state as the annual report disease is becoming a design competition not an annual report presentation of financial figures. Yeah.... Gosh I'm getting my, some of my hobby horses in aren't I? [Peter:] Well [clears throat] you're suggesting a back to basics campaign is appropriate here. [speaker002:] Absolutely. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] showing a bit of up Peter. [Peter:] I'm just making an opportunity here [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Before you get too political you must remember the only time I've been actively political was for an independent candidate. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] agents, so there you are. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Actually, I've only ever been a member of a political party for three months of my life, and I resigned Which one? on principle. The Tories, I resigned on principle when somebody suggested I could join a women's committee and I said I thought Oh God it was absolutely the end They actually do that very well, I believe Tories. And I erm... I actually like to discuss back to basics for a while erm on [clanking plate and eating] communication perspective... i in some of the what's happening at the moment. Do you mean you think the Tory Party needs sponsoring? Oh, that too erm that... we are, had, if we are saying that this evening we are looking at communications and different elements of it, I think this is an area which if ever there was an example of how perhaps not to do it... how to blow it askew, it's probably the best one we've had in, in decades. Erm... [crockery noise] I was very, very interested in an interview I heard last weekend I think it was with Pete, when he made the comment that he wasn't interested in back to basics because that was looking backwards a lot of people in the past lived pretty miserable lives. We saw them we should be looking forward. That was the interview with Mr Heath I think earlier on in the week. Was that the one in which he was asked by Ni not Nick, but the News at Ten chap Yes. that wh who in the government would he dispose of and he sat and smiled gently and said well he wouldn't have appointed any of them in the first place. [LAUGHTER] [crockery noise] Erm... well I mean I think there's some very fundamental issues in all this in, in the communication spectrum... first of all using the phrase back to basics, what do people mean by that and that's where the, they, they have gone wrong because the problem is that here we are, four people round this table and I'm sure if all of us were asked what do we mean by getting back to basics, we'll come out with a totally different... you know set of things that meanings. Actually erm that's what I was erm I have wanted to ask you so Yes what if, what does the basic m basics mean or basis? Well we need a politician to tell us, because none of us are very clear. It's a very valid question, it really is. What is meant by it... and what has happened... erm is that people are making, putting an interpretation that back to basics means back to looking at our morals and of course and of course we've always had a different view about what morals are anyway... all of us I mean once again if we went round the table and say you know expand on your moral position, I'm sure we would get four probably ten actually different viewpoints. [Peter:] I think you'll probably get. [speaker002:] Would you? [Peter:] Possibly yeah, yeah [speaker002:] Is that wishful thinking? [Peter:] I think no, I just think that... I think that the British people, forget there's people around the table, that the British people are actually pretty sort of liberal and tolerate overall and... er I think [sound of pouring water from jug] the problem back to basics was government slogan and they got John Major [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. [Peter:] and the problem has been that human beings are human beings [speaker002:] Mm. [Peter:] and er life is like that and I think that your average omnibus or forty four home tonight [sound of water from jug being poured] are, sometimes you will get married and you have affairs and... kids are born out of wedlock. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong, [glasses knocking] that's the way it is, that's now let's just get on with it, but we shouldn't saying that [speaker002:] Yes I mean issue with illegitimate children or his affair means that I mean even the line he was running... is okay because I'm rich so it's not gonna and it's not gonna and so he's got these two sort of values, that if you are a single parent and you're poor that makes you lesser and more immoral than if you were a single parent and you're rich. [talking whilst eating] rough mm. Mm? But in fact back to basics to me is rather like my kind of personal creed. Were you in that meeting the last meeting before Christmas when we did the talking round the tables? Mm. I missed that For me back to basics is how I find most of the time to run my own life, which is there are two teams... and on the one hand there's compassion, integrity and courage Yes. [Peter:] That's a [speaker002:] and on the other side there's callousness insensitivity and cant I love that word cant Yeah, but you know when you I mean when you feel sick, you remember the sick and it's C I C against C I C and you just have to remember because in fact courage, compassion and integrity can actually help you to deal or to try to deal more or less successively with any... circumstance. Mm. [Peter:] For me I cannot remember who said it, someone far wiser than... far wiser than me but somebody said a judge is civilization by the way he treats the [speaker002:] Oh yeah, that's right, true [Peter:] you know and that's right because it's special and I, I really think that you know the U K and perhaps we can world some countries like Sweden and so on because of the high taxation have been able to keep their but even they had a problem and this is more deeper more philosophical, but I mean I, I really feel that sweep out the streets, something has gone badly wrong and, and that an effect not just to those individuals, but greater fabric. [speaker002:] Oh, but then that gets you back to rever to sponsorship... would actually Scottish Power do more good for its image with the whole of the population if it sponsored a hostel or a care caravan or a soup kitchen? Well that, I mean that or go back right coming to patronizing the Yeah, I mean I saw something interesting last night About to get back in terms of the people that wouldn't sponsor right Mm I mean community groups were part of it th they didn't sponsor those, they did sponsor individuals, I mean it's interesting because... example that in sponsoring individuals and teams example involve them... sponsored by Nike on drug charges and sign their interviewed about his drug charges Nike T-shirt on... and so he said that you know one of their criteria was, criteria was not sponsoring individuals. And I mean what is Scottish Opera but a group of individuals. I mean I er er I mean I just don't know how you, you begin and end with this actually I mean I really don't and I mean I think quite frankly if Hydro Electric were to go out and say okay, we will fund... the purchase of twenty houses four bedrooms each for the homeless... right... I would have thought in terms of doing something I mean I walk round Princes Street and I see those poor sods and I say to myself [Peter:] Why? [speaker002:] why? We live in this civilized society. I, I don't know about you three, I would be prepared to pay an extra penny in my tax or whatever to make sure those poor sods are not in that street. [Peter:] which is, which is by and large, by and large has broader liberal [speaker002:] Oh yes. [Peter:] mean you know that that would give the chance erm. [speaker002:] Do you know one or two of my friends castigated me two years ago for taking food to somebody who was sleeping in the gardens. I went into the gardens one Sunday morning with the dog... found a body in a sleeping bag and I really didn't know whether I thought it was alive or not alive... so I went rather closer and I got a very defensive angry stare from a young man and I said to him I'm not going to ask you to move, because you've probably got nowhere to go, my real concern is are you okay. You know given that life is as it is are you okay and he said yes so I went round the gardens and I came back to him and I had a friend coming for lunch... and I thought this is ridiculous, I'm going to have something to drink and I'm going to have a meal so I made him an enormous great wad of cheese sandwiches and some apples and a piece of cake and some biscuits and a cup of tea and I went downstairs with the milk and the sugar and [LAUGHTER] cup of tea [] and all this stuff [LAUGHTER] and I went into [] the gardens and this poor child he looked very defensively a second time and I said well I thought you might like some breakfast and I wrapped the second lot up so if you've nothing later on, why not put it in your pocket and eat later in the day and I didn't know whether you took milk or sugar, so I thought I'd better just ask you... and do you know I thought he was going to cry. [Peter:] There's an interesting point in there. [speaker002:] Isn't it amazing? Mm. [Peter:] He was a Scotsman depending San Francisco and er situation that what you described... but we were handing out food at Christmas Eve to people and people were coming up and er... for their own proud they were saying things like I'm a vegetarian or I don't eat cheese pasties that was the case that was the only thing you had left but I mean it makes me really angry that we did not have this situation ten or twelve years ago. [speaker002:] That's right, but, but you know that it's only the, are only one of the major supermarket chains that gives money to organization and one of the organizations in Glasgow there was an article in the Scotsman or the Herald the other day and I mustn't quote names because I can be wrong, but one of them and there were major s major stores selling food as well as actual food retailers cited, but only one of them will give food that's past its sell-by date or surplus or whatever for one of the Glasgow charities for the homeless. Now that seems to me quite extraordinary Well if you remember what it is, let me know and I'll buy the shopping from them and that is an influence for me. It really is I mean I... I still feel guilty and it might sound daft to you, but I still feel guilty and what would my have done... about I was down in London a few weeks ago for a meeting and I was coming back on the sleeper... and I got the train to... Euston... and erm [crockery noise] I came out at the wrong spot, so I had to walk out of Euston Underground and then round to go to Euston Station rather than going through [Peter:] There's a park when it's a beautiful area. [speaker002:] and up the steps out of the underground there was this lass there and I, I can't help it I mean I'm always aware of the fact of having this twenty five year old child, so... offspring... and there was a girl roughly about his age or slightly younger and she was grey you know that translucent look your skin gets when you're not eating properly you know that grey sort of pallor and I had an overnight bag in one hand and a briefcase and a handbag in the other and I remember I walked past her and she was begging... and I had gone to the sleeper and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking... you bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep, you could of put briefcase down, overnight bag down, handbag down and got some money out. Now okay you know the, you know the one person you can't do anything for but it's the way this lass looked you know... and then about a week after that I'm in Princes Street... and I always try and er you know buy the, the Issues Mm Issue. [Peter:] Well it's just been extraordinarily successful er and I know I interrupted what you're saying, think it's been successful because are beginning to care again [speaker002:] Yes, which is fabulous. [Peter:] They've got the opportunity to do something [speaker002:] Just super. But anyway I gave, it's fifty P... I gave the lass who was selling it a pound you see and she said here you are waiting to give me my change, I said no, no and she said... and I said to her I said you know you need it more than I do and she... she got tears in her eyes... and [sighing] I... I thought I mean I [] I don't know if I can articulate this properly. [glasses being moved around hitting against microphone] I just don't

[Tracy:] the annual general meeting of the above-named Society to be held in Rainhill village hall, Thursday the second of December nineteen ninety three at seven thirty P M. Society being the Rainhill Garrick Society. [Keith:] Good... and Tracy, can we have apologies first. [Tracy:] Yes. Apologies from Lindsey, Alec and... Sue, and Richard..., from Margaret. [Keith:] Any more er... apologies [Tracy:] Dave, Jackie, David... David [Keith:] Oh, Lindsey! [Tracy:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Right, any more erm... apologies? Right... then I take it... the minutes of the last Annual General Meeting haven been circulated already? [Tracy:] Yes. [Keith:] That so? Everyone got a copy? [Tracy:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yes. [Keith:] And that's. Erm... so we'll move on to matters arising and Alan has asked me... er... in the role erm erm... of chairman.... er... to raise two matters... or comments rather than matters... erm... seating... er, new cushions have now been purchased and were used with great success... at the October... production and Alan has asked whether there are any comments we can draw about the success or otherwise of the October production and whether the experiment is worth... continuing.? [David:] Certainly was... much more comfortable at any rate. [Graham:] We actually sold some tickets from the that we had. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Seriously realize that they had cushions on the seats. [speaker003:] Ah right. [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] before or after? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] I thought it was a Garrick tradition that if you wasn't in any sore in the second act, you know... you weren't really there. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] everybody... anyone did not feel it was a good idea? [Joyce:] Yes, send them all back. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] So is that pretty well er... approval? Good. And from Alan... the new flats... here, Norman... helped by Dave and other members... has been constructing substantial timber stroke hardboard flats... although a bit heavier than the conventional canvas they will last for years... and they really do provide superb sets as has been proved with all three plays... presented... this year. Thanks are due to Norman and his helpers. It says in brackets, ask for comments. [Joyce:] Send them back! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Would you like to make a gracious acknowledgement of that er you know... suitably modest, Norman. [Pam:] Erm... [speaker003:] No. [Pam:] sufficient flats to do more or less anything er... that you care to choose now. [Tracy:] I would like to acknowledge Norman's excellence because... the Garrick was sort of stuck in the past for a long time box set imitation stuff... and Norman has sort of revitalized it... made it... extremely professional and it really did make a difference to the... performances and I'd like to [Pam:] I would like to thank... er for the use of his er... workshop... and his power tools facilitated to acquire the raw materials at a... very low cost. [Keith:] happy with that er... right... good... well those were the chairman's... er comments, matters arising from the minutes of the last A G M... erm... any further matters arising from the A G M, you probably don't need to be told... any other business comes later, this is purely on the minutes of the last A G M... any matters arising? No... it would appear not. Right... we'll now see chairman's remarks... which erm since Alan is not here has asked me... to read. So... it's Alan's voice even though it's coming out of my mouth. Er, first of all may I give my sincere and abject apology for not being here to chair the Garrick's A G M, this is due to a longstanding appointment... made before I realized that the first Thursday in December is traditionally the day for the A G M. It's been another year of achievement for the society... the panto Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves was a great success... and gave a great start to the year. The February play was A Thriller of the Year, with an all-female cast... our original choice of play was A Death Trap... we couldn't cast it because of a lack of men auditioning. Now where have I heard that before? The May play, Tea For Two, was performed for five nights... the proceeds from the extra performance going to the Whiston Hospital cancer day- care ward... a cheque for three hundred pounds being gratefully received by the hospital. Following the performance, officials at the hospital and members of the audience were invited to an informal get-together... an event which was so successful... it was to repeated at the October production and hopefully will become a feature at every future production. This is seen to be an excellent P R exercise... an opportunity for the audience to meet the cast. Wuthering Heights, the October production was also... casting difficulties which were only resolved in August... unfortunately due to a severe bout of flu I didn't get to see it... hear that all reports spoke of yet another quality production. On behalf of the society I should like to thank all those who contributed to the success of these productions... the actors and actresses, backstage staff... sound and stage management, props... front of house... tea, coffee makers... programme and raffle ticket sellers... thanks also to Adrian who has patrolled the car park on occasions. In particular, thanks are due to the directors of the four productions... Julie for Ali Baba... John for Thriller of the Year... Joan for Tea for Two... and May for Wuthering Heights. Our very best wishes go to Margaret for her continuing speedy recovery... I know that our recently appointed archivist will be very disappointed at not being able to take part in the Steel Magnolias... our February production... get well quickly, Margaret, and we look forward to seeing you very soon. Two of our members have married during the year... Peter and Denise... not to each other I hasten to add... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Mrs. Congratulations also to Liz and Phil on the birth of their daughter. At this stage I should like to thank the committee collectively for the tremendous amount of hard work and dedication put in during the year, and for the support which I have received. I'm sure the other members of the committee will forgive me if I mention Tracy and David and Norman of the last year... as secretary, treasurer and stage director respectively. All three offices are extremely arduous and take up much of your free time. There was one resignation from the committee in June, Elise felt she could not longer continue as publicity officer... and we asked Rosetta to step into that office. Thank you Rosetta for doing so willingly and for demonstrating such enthusiasm... ideas... and flair for the job. The appointment of Rosetta we have another husband and wife team on the committee... Joyce and Fred. So... Alan suggested that er the pre-show committee. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Keith:] The final thank you goes to the village hall management committee and er particularly to Margaret... not only for her cooperation in arranging show rehearsal dates etcetera... but also her ticket selling. Er... there seems to have been a rash of resignations recently, it all started with David Gower, then Graham Taylor... and last week we heard that Mary Whitehouse is standing down... now it's Joan and... thank you Joan for your sterling work as ticket subscription secretary... Joan reorganized the system and I'm sure that whoever takes over from Joan will start with an immaculate set of facts and figures. After three enjoyable years as chairman... I believe it's time to stand down... I shall miss those monthly meetings at... thank you Betty for all the tea and coffee making... but I shall have many happy memories, I suppose to me the highlights were the fiftieth anniversary celebration... and the brilliant production of Stepping Out. I very much hope that Rainhill Garrick Society continues to present quality plays... extending and satisfying the talents of our members in every department... while at the same time attracting large audiences. The Garrick has... a fine reputation... long may this continue... I wish the society every success in the future. That is Alan's... chairman's remarks. Tracy, normal to ask for comments or just to accept the? ought to be said really, since Alan is not here and is erm... is resigning, well perhaps that could come... a little later on... because I think both Joan and... Alan... er there should be some record other than this about the work they have put in for the... Society... er... I mean the only idea I have, I don't know how much of a... a precedent this is, whether, whether anybody should be offered life membership of the... the society... or is that only for... do you have to reach a certain age... Fine... I'll be guided by that. [Graham:] ... personally... I, I, I felt, I mean so many people have been uncommitted and the Garrick... [Keith:] Mhm [Graham:] I think it would... wouldn't be [Keith:] Well, I think at the very least the Society ought to pass a vote of thanks to both of them for the sterling work they have done and I would be more than happy to er... thank you er... well, is it the members' wish to, to... thank Joan Alan for the sterling work they have put in as members and officers. Show of hands? Perhaps you would be. Would it be nice to, would it be nice to send a letter from the Society putting this in writing? I think so. That he can pin up on the... on the wall [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] To be used in emergencies! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Right... well that's the chairman's remarks so... Tracy, the... sorry, you're still... writing for your letter Well, I think I can't stretch the secretary's report much longer than one and a half [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Tracy:] Right, first of all I'd like to apologize for the fact that Alan's report and my report... especially the first half, are very similar. I'm sorry about that. [LAUGHTER] But []... anyway... nineteen ninety three has been another successful year for the Garrick, which started, so far as the productions are concerned... with the pantomime, Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves... directed by Jill... her debut as a director, hopefully not her last. It was also great to see some new faces in the pantomime this year and let's hope that will be a continuing trend. As you are all probably aware, Death Trap, originally planned for February, had to be scrapped... despite valiant efforts by the casting committee and John... the directors get around the problem of the men... or rather the lack of them. Nevertheless, Thriller of the Year, an all-female cast, was very successful with house numbers totalling four hundred and thirty. The main play, Tea for Two, directed expertly as usual by Joan, attracted audiences totalling four hundred and sixty and was thoroughly enjoyed by all. The extra performance on the Tuesday in aid of the new cancer day-care ward at Whiston Hospital raised three hundred pounds... and special thanks go to Betty who came up with the original idea... and everyone involved who organized the marvellous spread for the soiree afterwards. Wuthering Heights, our October play, gave May in her role as director, a challenge which she conquered admirably... well done, May. There were a few problems with the casting of the men... and staffing for the kitchen, but these were overcome and an excellent play resulted... a sentiment that I think the four hundred and thirty seven strong audience would agree with. The lighting was also a ma of major importance and Richard did an excellent job as stage manager...... thank you, Richard, even though. October also saw the arrival of the much discussed cushions... what will we talk about now that? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Tracy:] I'm sure we'll think of something! These were given their first test run and enthused about by the audiences for Wuthering Heights... a very worthwhile investment. Talking of worthwhile investments, the new flats constructed by Norman and David have been put to good use this year... and indeed Nor indeed Norman's sets get better and better. The success of the wine evening on the Friday of the October play, was a pleasant surprise to us all... with approximately forty people staying after the performance for a glass of wine, a look round the set and backstage. As well as involving our audiences more, it may also help to attract new members which can only be of benefit to the Society... let's hope it will be a regular event. Unfortunately, there have been no social events this year... hopefully we can make up for this in nineteen ninety four. I have enjoyed my twelve months as secretary and would like to thank the other committee members for their help and support, especially Alan. All that remains is to wish you all a merry Christmas and happy new year. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Keith:] Well, would anyone like to move and second that we accept... Tracy's report and... [speaker003:] there's a young mover here. [Bert:] Yes... and I'm bound to say, too... while doing so... that when Pam went... erm... as was the case when Kay went, I thought oh blimey... how are we gonna replace her? And yet another has emerged from the ranks! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] So... Right then, all comments on the second, I know we've got any other business coming up, but I mean Ken's offered a sort of... er word of praise for Tracy, anyone bursting to say something about the secretary's report. the er... secretary's re treasurer's... balance sheet has been er... has been issued... I don't broken down... er... would the... am I the only one? [David:] No, no, everyone has [Keith:] Has everyone got a copy of them here? Has everyone got a copy of [speaker003:] No. [Keith:] the treasurer's report? [David:] Right, erm... I'll just go to the... thing. We started off with five thousand six hundred and ninety one pounds last year... this year we've ended up with four thousand seven hundred and eighty eight pounds. Erm... basically we've spent more than we've... erm... taken in... but that was a deliberate policy agreed on by the committee... we've already mentioned Norman's flats... erm... that has been a most worthwhile expenditure... and... we've got to look at that as a long-term investment because we've got flats which are going to last for years and our... expenditure which was getting on for fifteen hundred pounds... will not have to be repeated. Other things we have purchased... which have reduced the balance, again the cushions, but it, this... is a long-term investment and we should recoup that with extra bums on cushions rather than on seats. Erm... the three... plays have erm... produced two surpluses and one... deficit, the panto a thundering surplus. We made two hundred and forty five pounds... on Thriller of the Year... one hundred and nineteen pounds on Tea for Two... but that is after we've made the three hundred pounds... donation to Whiston Hospital... we made a thousand and eighteen pounds on the panto... Wuthering Heights... we lost four hundred and nine pounds, but that was basically that we do... costume plays and have to hire the... erm... fixtures and... set pieces from Wrightsons or wherever... we're always going to be in this position and I think it's the tradition of the Garrick that we continue to do them, and I think... we have to accept that we may have losses in future on those particular... erm... things. [speaker003:] I think it's true to say as well, isn't it, Mr Treasurer, that there's some money... ticket money still to come. [David:] Oh yes. I've still got a few odds and ends that are late late monies which will go in... [speaker003:] Yeah. [David:] which will actually reduce that figure... [speaker003:] That's right. [David:] but... we obviously have to cut off at a certain time to er... get the accounts and audited in time. So there will be a slight improvement on that position... but erm... I do feel that we have to continue to do them... the costume plays... we can't just say oh we don't make a profit on it, we can't do it, I think that would be a very shortsighted... erm... philosophy. They are basically the nuts and bolts of the er the report, if anyone has any questions... questions... I'd rather not hear it, [Keith:] Has anyone anything they would like to ask... the treasurer, or comment, Kenneth? [Kenneth:] Where did the er... donation of sixty seven pounds seventy five come? [David:] They were from people who were at Tea for Two who made donations specifically towards the cancer... erm... [Kenneth:] I see. [David:] that, that is included on the other side in the three hundred pounds that went out. They made specific donations on the night... in the knowledge that it... all the proceeds were going to... the cancer day ward and that helped to boost the figure. [Keith:] Any further... questions for David? [Tracy:] What, what happens to the car park then? [Keith:] We didn't have one on the last play. [David:] Yeah, but er... normally Alan... er... organizes this... with our... car park warden, but unfortunately as was stated... it was struck with the flu. Yes. I, I agree that it is something that we must make sure that we arrange in future because people do get nervous about the cars out there... unattended and er... I think it would be a... a very good point. [Keith:] So is everyone erm happy with... the treasurer's report? If so... could we have a proposer and a seconder that... it been accepted. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well now we... move on to the election of officers and as you've heard... two... er officers are, have tendered their resignation, Alan... and Joan. Erm... if, if it means... well, basically I'd better say how many... erm... proposals are there for. [speaker003:] Would you like er Tracy now to [Tracy:] There have been five proposals for the er chairman... chairman's position... and nil proposals for the. [Keith:] So we Well the quickest way of doing is that those officers who are remaining in office... erm... could be voted back into office and then we can have a vote on... on the others... those that are unopposed as it were. [Tracy:] Yeah. [Keith:] Tracy will read the, the officers who will, who are, are standing again and are unopposed. [Tracy:] Er... treasurer, David... house manager, May, stage director, Norman... play secretary, Lynne, publicity officer, Rosetta and secretary, Tracy. [Keith:] Well since there is a... return unopposed, it might be nice if we can have a unanimous endorsement of that. Do we approve that those officers remain in office? Show of hands, please. Purely a formality. I think that erm er... my thanks obviously through, through erm Alan and the meeting for all the hard work that those officers have put it... and for their willingness to stand again. Erm, amateur societies just can't exist without loyal officers... and those officers have shown their loyalty by s standing again... and we know the special circumstances appertaining to the..., which brings us to the nitty- gritty now... erm... you said we have, Tracy, five... erm... perhaps you'd better read those names out for us and then I think the best thing to do is to have a closed vote, where we give you all a piece of paper on which you state your nomination... folded up so nobody else can see... we'll put them in a bag... and then... we'll appoint a couple of to count the vote so that we do not the chairman. [Tracy:] I've had two, sorry, I've had two nominations for chairman. What I meant was when I said five proposals [Keith:] Okay... a, a rethink... two members' [Tracy:] Sorry. [Keith:] proposals for chairman. Makes it slightly easier anyway. [Tracy:] I was counting the forms. Er... the nominations for chairman are... and Graham. [Keith:] Right. So I think... erm those two gentlemen... will have to leave the room, I think... while is taken. Will you come back? Right and now Tracy will give you all a piece of paper... er, keep it secret... write your name, fold it... and. You know who the two candidates are, don't you? David and I will act as and er.... Yes, I've got it's a precedent of our Erm... it's a pretty close run thing but by a narrow majority, your new chairman is Graham. Perhaps you could give him a round of applause. [speaker003:] [clapping] [Keith:] As the new chairman... you'd like to come and take over from me now. Sure? Er we'd like to thank Bert, too, for... standing. pretty close run thing I can assure you. [Graham:] historical interest... [Keith:] Yeah. [Graham:] I think it's possibly the thirteenth... consecutive year I've been on the committee... and for the first time I've managed to be elected. [Keith:] patience... do you feel wanted [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Well congratulations, Graham, and thank you Bert also for standing. Now we committee... erm... with the resignation of Joan as ticket and subscription secretary, so all I can do is ask for any nominations from the floor, please... or any volunteer who would like to... follow... Joan. You heard Alan say that erm... Joan has laid the guidelines down and made the job... easier. [speaker003:] The trouble is that er erm... Yes [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Is that a yes or a no [speaker003:] [clapping] [Keith:] someone nominate [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Anne not to be undone Bert, thank you very much indeed, you're now ticket and subscription... [Bert:] Thank you. [Keith:] er... secretary. That's excellent. Now in the election of auditors, I gather it's, it's down to a formality, David? [David:] Well, Bert has audited... erm these, I, I don't know whether he's er... prohibited from doing so by his... being ticket secretary... not knowing the er... [Bert:] I think it would be a bit unusual. [David:] Yes... but not against the... constitution [speaker003:] I don't think it's against the constitution that er... it would be a bit unusual to find him involved in handling money... to be involved in he went to Majorca or Tenerife or... in a bid to see each other it's a possibility. no problem... it's just... it's... I think it's a bit er... just a conflict of interests. Well that's right. [Keith:] Any nomina any nomination for... then? [speaker003:] The only one I could suggest is Tim, but he's not here unfortunately. [Keith:] Could he be approached? [speaker003:] He'll probably be in the pub later on. Er... I'll approach him if you want. [Keith:] Anyone second Bert's nomination then? [speaker003:] He's the next treasurer isn't he? Yeah. [Keith:] Right, so Tim is nominated by Bert, has to be approached, I think... be approached. Well that's got all the short bits done... now, out of ten... any other business. And as Tracy said, the cushions is no longer an issue, but erm... [David:] One thing we did discuss at committee but... I think it ought to be put to... the A G M... we discussed the increase in the cost of... er, admission... erm... we held our prices down for at least a couple of years... we had a... heavy outlay on... cushions... I do feel that erm... we ought to put in to the meeting what we discussed at committee that be raised from two fifty and one twenty five... to three pounds and two pounds for the concessions... including students... and... erm... the youngsters. I feel it ought to go before the A G M rather than just be agreed. [Keith:] Ken. [Kenneth:] Why Mr Treasurer... do you propose this increase? [David:] Well they're getting comfy seats... and... we're star well as you can see from the last play, Wuthering Heights... that erm... we actually lost money on that... I know... it will happen but I feel that we ought to... erm... go along and get into a healthier position again. [Tracy:] I would suggest that if you put the tickets up to actually give them... a raffle ticket on, on entrance... you know, so that they feel they're getting sort of and [speaker003:] Yes [Tracy:] and members of the cast donate the prizes, you know, just... one prize each or something, a box chocolates... which I'm sure... won't hurt. [speaker003:] I, I know I agree with the committee but on the year... we have actually made money, is that right? [Tracy:] Yes. [David:] No... we were actually twelve hundred pounds worse off this year... [speaker003:] The actual show has actually made money. [Tracy:] Yes... a lot. [speaker003:] So... if we take... forget the cushions... and the scenery which are... you know [David:] Non-returning [speaker003:] Yeah. [Keith:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Is it er justified? Do you really think it's justified? It's very to keep the prices down as low as possible, I think... [Tracy:] Yeah... and you [speaker003:] And if we are making money on the shows... is it justified? Perhaps you'll open that to [David:] in fact I feel the price we charge for concessions and youngsters is a giveaway... we might as well give them away for nothing. I, I really feel that no... four twenty five is... is absolutely silly [Tracy:] I think... I think [speaker003:] Yeah... I'm thinking of either three pounds a ticket... you're getting close to the price of a special chauffeur. Erm... I feel for the quality of the show that they're seeing, two pound fifty is... is... nothing. I, I really feel two pound fifty is low for the quality of, of play that they're seeing... I mean... other amateur groups... not that we're comparing ourselves, but they certainly charge more than us and quite honestly the end product... on some of them is not up to our end product. [Keith:] Pam, you wanted to make a comment. [Pam:] Well, you're... you're raising... er... the price of tickets by fifty pence, aren't you? And the concessions by seventy five, why don't you [David:] I'll raise them both by [LAUGHTER] seventy five []. [LAUGHTER] No... it, it's because they are nice round amounts, one twenty five is... has been such a derisory amount... it, it's... it really has. One twenty five... irrespective of who's going in, it, it really is a... a giveaway amount. Yeah I think that the [Tracy:] What about the range of concessions of... pensioners erm... you know, free tea and coffee? So that they're not having to... find money for that as well as their ticket... they get it sort of all in one price. [speaker003:] tea and coffee You'd have to know in advance. Mm... right. [Keith:] Linda. [Linda:] I think erm... I think is quite fair... maybe if concessions could be raised to one fifty or two pounds... but overall I think that people who can afford it spend such a lot of money on the raffle... and we therefore give raffle tickets to those who can afford it could jealousy... and on the raffle generally about a hundred pounds is made... and if there, if there was more charge for tickets, people might not give so much for the raffles... and also if you give... but if you charge them a nominal sum and then shove other things at them on their options... they might be more willing to give... to optional choices like a raffle. [Keith:] I think the problem is... that if you're not careful this will leave the counterproductive... erm, somebody said well I don't mind paying... two fifty or three quid... so what you'd gain on the seats you'd lose on the side. Er... I mean that, that's not an attempt to dissuade or anyone... but it, it... you know people are very traditional... and if the Garrick has always charged... reasonably... and suddenly there seems to be... rate of inflation and this sort of thing, you know, as Linda said, they might think okay, I'll pay three quid... but I'm damned if I'm buying any raffle tickets. So really it is a case of swings and roundabouts. Any more comments... obviously I think we're gonna have to take... er [speaker003:] Oh, well obviously before anything else. [Keith:] Any anyone else like to make a comment [speaker003:] Oh yes, I'd like to erm... er concur on what Linda just said about options, I don't think we should give erm... raffle tickets away as has been suggested. I think some people do give generously when buying raffle tickets... and particularly they like the fact that the tickets are so cheap, so we should continue to give them that option. Erm... for what it's worth, I'll give you my suggestions about what we should do as far as ticket prices are concerned... er, having taken in a view of the most important factor of the treasurer's comments... but also bearing in mind that we did have high recurring expenses this year, which... won't apply in future and we're not here to make money. I suggest that the erm... ticket price should be two pounds fifty as it is now... and that the concessionary price should be increased to two pounds. That's what I suggest. Yeah... that's what I said. Yes, I agree with that. I'm not asking for a vote on it... I'm simply giving you my opinion. [Keith:] Are you qualified for two... for, for the concessionary... [speaker003:] Concessions are... pensioners... er... and students... and that's students with a student card... and children. And children. And children as well ... yes. Actually one twenty five to two pounds is quite a steep increase. For pensioners. Yes. Well concessions... Yes. [Keith:] Erm... oh, obviously we're going to have to vote on specifics eventually. [speaker003:] one fifty. [Keith:] One fifty I think would be more reasonable. [David:] I think to jump from one twenty five to, to two pounds is. If we do that... we're only adding twenty five pence more revenue... The last play I worked out that w we had one four hundred and thirty seven... of those thirty seven would be er... freebies to the homes... in, in... to bring it down to about four hundred... and on the ticket money we took in, I would say about a hundred and twenty... of those were erm... er concessions. [Keith:] How many over the year, roughly? [David:] I would have to... guess at the others because I didn't do erm... sums on the other ones... it was only on the last play... but if it's on the same sort of erm... proportions, then I would say... somewhere around thirty percent of the audience are concessions. I just have to multiply... that, the, the figure by twenty five or divide by four pounds, it's no small sum. Even though twenty five er... two fifty to one fifty I think will be er... [speaker003:] Yes... I think so. [Keith:] about five hundred over the year or six hundred or talking about a maximum of twenty pounds taken over... right, thank you. [speaker003:] It could be included in the of course ticket would increase the potential. The trouble is that there's... there's the, a... a vast difference in the concessions Yes. to the full price ticket and I think [Tracy:] Oh, it's half price. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Keith:] Two fifty, would you... do you think two fifty and one fifty is the closest it can go? I mean, when is a concession not a concession? If it's too close together it's like... it's not really a concession. [speaker003:] I think that's fair enough, one fifty to... [Keith:] Well shall we have a vote on those two figures then? You see if that goes through there's no point in... trying another one. [speaker003:] As a matter of interest... on the raffle side, David, is it basically the two pound fifty person... that buys... the majority of the raffle tickets? [Tracy:] Yes. [David:] I would say [Tracy:] Yes. [David:] so, the [speaker003:] So they're the ones then that like Linda said... are paying two pound fifty then they are [David:] So they're spending three pounds [speaker003:] whereas erm... [David:] to concessions [speaker003:] perhaps will buy in couples [Tracy:] That's right. [speaker003:] ... [musical interlude] [David:] and two pounds for concessions... children and students. [Keith:] That is the proposal so the... suggested a maximum first... could we have a show of hands on... ticket prices of two pounds fifty... and one pound fifty. Can we have a show of hands on that? May well [speaker003:] Yes. [Keith:] the erm... proposal falls... by... so... er Tracy and, and David have made a, a, a note of this and thank you for... [musical interlude] [Tracy:] backup check. Why don't you want? [speaker003:] Because... from one he said he would do it. [Tracy:] I think we should up... up it from eight pounds... it's worth it isn't it? [speaker003:] We arrived, didn't we, at the eight pounds mark because [David:] Yes. [speaker003:] that was what we were sort of we gathered in and we broke even [David:] We broke even on Thriller of the Year and lost twenty eight pounds on the panto. [speaker003:] I think it ought to be... a regular feature, a regular feature for everywhere... regardless, because it was felt that... er... during the... the May play... which proved to be wrong er... you know, I think it should be for everywhere It should. I, I've had [Keith:] So sorry [speaker003:] people coming to me, audiences, members of the audience coming to me and saying, oh... what about the car park [Keith:] Yeah... yes. [speaker003:] you know... on the couple of occasions not arranged anything. [Keith:] Well would, would you like to propose that the matter be referred... to the committee... er... to make a suitable appointment or appointments? [speaker003:] Yes, I'll propose [Keith:] Make it official rather than just... [speaker003:] Get some publicity out of it as well. [Keith:] And, and a seconder? [speaker003:] I'll second that [Keith:] Fine. So we have a proposer and a seconder that the committee take on board the... provision of a car park steward, for want of another word. Thanks for the suggestion. [speaker003:] May I suggest that er we get some money together specially to pay this. Say we have a social event... I'll do that [LAUGHTER] raise say a hundred pound or seventy five... and then that can go towards payment er the payment for someone to patrol the car park for the plays. [Keith:] Or thirty two pounds or whatever. [speaker003:] Even if we raise twenty pounds a performance for it. [Keith:] Well... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] or should that be referred... erm...... er... well, do we accept that suggestion that Linda's? You are lumbered with a social event... to raise money for a car park steward Right. Any oth other business is still open. Two and half hours before the pubs close.... to say something. [speaker003:] Yeah. It we're not quite getting this clear... it's an excellent idea. Erm... but... one of the reasons that, that we got the audience was, was so... that they, they obviously the audience were prepared to pay... for the fact that [David:] There's nothing to stop us still asking... nice little earner... as they say. [Keith:] Yes,i i it, it could be a nice little earner as er... you suggested. [speaker003:] A nice social event. [Keith:] This really is committee work... but I, it does occur to me that mention it... that erm, if in our advertising... we point out... that we have a car park attendant... and if that car park attendant were to let one slip through his fingers... me were, we may well then be liable to be sued by the person who [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Oh yes. [Keith:] I mean this is the kind of comment we will get... from somebody who has spent the past five years on the village hall management committee. I think that... I think we've agreed that that is to be taken on board by the... [speaker003:] Committee [Keith:] by, by the committee. [speaker003:] We'll put it in [Keith:] Any other business [speaker003:] Can I express thanks to the president for taking this meeting... it's been... very interesting. [Keith:] What, that I have or the meeting has? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Thank you. [speaker003:] Can I second that. [LAUGHTER] [Keith:] Well... [speaker003:] [clapping] [Keith:] Erm... all that remains is to say thank you all for taking the trouble to... turn up and show an interest in the... administration of the society. The remainder of the evening is... at your disposal. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]

[Bert:] Good evening ladies and gentleman. [speaker002:] Good evening, Bert. [Bert:] Thanks for coming along tonight... as you see... we have our... A G M tonight... and er... hope er... to see a lot more faces here tonight... [Emily:] his car broke down. [speaker002:] Oh apologies from Brian... his car broke down. Oh well.... [Bert:] Jack should be here. [speaker002:] er... Brian W... Val... anybody else? I think people shy off the A G M, because they're frightened of getting jobs on the committee. [Bert:] Right then... could we have the minutes from the previous A G M, please. [speaker002:] The minutes of the annual general meeting held at Labour Club... on Monday the seventh of December... nineteen ninety two. There were thirteen members present, in the chair... apology er apologies from Joe and Emily... and Robert who were injured in a car crash on the way here. Minutes of the A G M on the second of December nineteen ninety one were read... proposed Jack... and seconded...... that they be accepted. All in favour... there were none against... and no abstentions. Matters arising... there were no matters arising... unusually. Secretary's report... the secretary thanked Joan and Reg for the club during the year... especially for donating items for the open show for the and Christmas social. It was a very hard job holding everything together... and it required tremendous dedication from everyone concerned. Difficulties had arisen over the Globe Hotel in February last year... and we have been forced to move yet again. We were once more experiencing difficulties... hopefully... they would all be out before too long. We hadn't managed to get any speakers this year... but had all enjoyed the previous meeting in Oc in October. There had been a trip to Yorkshire in April... and another to the British Aquarist Festival... in November, both of which had been enjoyed by all. This concluded the secretary's report. Brian proposed... Wilf seconded that the be, the, seconded that the report be accepted... all in favour, there were none against and no abstentions. Show secretary's report... in the show secretary's absence... due to the accident... on route tonight... the chairman said... Mrs had done a fantastic job over the year... and he wished to record his thanks to her. The fish on the bench have increased over the year... and he asked everyone to bring out just one fish... every meeting. The secretary would phone to find out if they were alright... after the accident and if nec necessary... contact the chairman. Treasurer's report... the balance sheets were circulated to all and the treasurer went through each item... of expenditure, explaining in detail. There was a healthy balance... for nineteen ninety three... and this was mainly due to members supporting raffles... and the fact that we have not put the show stand off... at the British Aquarist Festival for a couple of years. This had built up the present balance to what it now was. Mr proposed seconded that the report be accepted. All in favour... none against and no abstentions. This concluded the reports. There was no librarian's report... due to Mr being absent. The chairman thanked all those who had worked hard and tirelessly over the last year... for the benefit of the club and its members. Election of the committee. Now I don't propose to go through... erm the proposers and seconders, I shall just go through... the nominees... er... and there was no opposition. So... er presumably... er you understand that it was, they were all elected. The chairman... Peter... vice chairman, Bill... secretary, H... treasurer... A B... show secretary, E... assistant show secretary, R... librarian, Jane... committee... J... M... W... and J. All these members were elected unanimously and unopposed. Now, any other business. We were asked to try to arrange an inter-club table show... with Hulton Aquarist Society. The secretary would approach the Hulton secretary. The treasurer asked if we could make an early start to the meetings... eight P M prompt. It looked very bad when we advertised an eight P M start... and if... if you members came along... there was only two or three people here at eight P M. This concluded the business of the A G M... and the chairman closed the, the meeting at ten ten... ten past ten. Other club business... social evening on Monday the twenty first of December... Mr would donate egg and cress sandwiches... B W would donate cheese... cheese and onion... Wilf would donate boiled ham. Secretary would arrange chicken pieces... pork pies... sausage rolls, sausages on sticks... cheese and onion... and cheese and pineapple on sticks... and would also donate mince pies. Jack... may be able to donate some scones... we would have bingo... a knock-out competition and the whisky roll... plus a raffle. Prizes required please. There was no further business... the chairman closed the meeting at ten forty P M. [Bert:] Any matters arising from those minutes? No matters arising? [speaker002:] Can we have a proposer and seconder, please? [Bert:] Yes is there a proposer? [speaker003:] [someone mumbling in background] [Bert:] And a seconder? [speaker003:] Seconded. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I haven't got a [LAUGHTER] you don't give me one! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'll give you er... give you an extra cup of tea at supper time. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you. [speaker002:] Oh... hang on a minute, the secretary can go first. Oh matters arising. there's none arising. [Bert:] No... correct. No matters arising. [speaker002:] No. [Bert:] propose... second... [speaker002:] Yeah but Joe... Joe proposed [Emily:] Yeah we've done that bit... we've done that bit [speaker002:] and Brian seconded [Emily:] we've done that bit [speaker002:] now we're on to matters arising. Yeah... minutes of the previous A G M proposed and seconded, right? Matters arising proposed and seconded that they be accepted recommendations Yeah... no no, because there was no matters arising. Just put that on so you can proposing and seconding. [Emily:] Confusing, isn't it? [speaker002:] No, not really! [LAUGHTER] [Bert:] Right... [speaker002:] Secretary's report [Bert:] Can we have the secretary's report. [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm... secretary's report, it's much the same as last year... er, we had two trips... this year... two coach trips... one to the Yorkshire Aquarist Festival in Ap was it April? I think it was April, wasn't it? And one to the British Aquarist Festival in October. They were both enjoyable... erm... I can't really say which I enjoyed the most... er, I thought they were both very good... and of course good value for the money... because they don't charge very much for the fares... well I don't think they do. Erm... then we had the... three-way inter-club... table show... with Hulton... and Skelmersdale and St Helens... erm... the first one was... St Helens... and that was the only wasn't it, about April... and we won that... we, we... it was a whitewash really, wasn't it? Erm... then we had one at Sk Hulton in July... and we won that... er, not quite as much of a whitewash was it? Nevertheless we won handsomely. And the third one was at Skelm... [Emily:] Which was not organized because we don't know anyone [speaker002:] which was... we don't know who won... we don't know what the score was but we think that... but we're, we're assuming that that's because they bring out all their secret showmen... who don't sh travel... they have a little core, hard core of that don't travel... but they, they bring them out... they bring them out at their own table shows and, and it's... [Robert:] Appropriate that we should that much [speaker002:] Well that appears to be so. I never cared for results... never cared for results at all. Robert is [Emily:] We never saw a fish either. [speaker002:] No. I don't think erm... on reflection, I don't think that a three-way table show is a good thing. I would prefer to see an inter-club with Skelm and an inter-club with Hulton I think they get too big, two clubs is too difficult to organize when there's three... cos you, you're getting... it's not, it's the [speaker003:] It's not that... the show secretary was er... at club... had not done his job. [Emily:] At Skelmersdale? [speaker002:] Yeah. I mean he's in the auction when he should be with them... writing the labels. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yes... I mean it doesn't go down well and I'll... say the things you have to do when you when you're helping to run a club, you have to commit yourself to the club and you have to do the jobs that th presented by the club. I mean I date mine, er well I don't date 'em I... I sign the cards at home and do all that at home before I go... That's right. and then when I come here I've just got to date... what fish is on the bench. That's right. [speaker002:] And it cuts down the work then. [speaker003:] The way he's doing this... is there's they can go. [speaker002:] Well that's no use is it? That's no use. I know they were still judging after midnight... and that's no good really... no good at all on a working week. [speaker003:] When we got there we had to species of fish... and then take it out and [speaker002:] Yeah... yeah. It's a good idea... it's a good idea in principle... but, but it's not a workable proposition when you've over a hundred fish... and there's evening... [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] she hasn't got enough time... [Emily:] one of the didn't come till nearly quarter past ten. [speaker002:] Yeah... yeah. I think it er, on reflection I think er I would discourage... members from having a three-way table show... I like the, the one-off... you know, one against one... because it works better [speaker003:] ... [speaker002:] yeah. I think it works better. Yeah. Yes of course yeah, but the, you know, we, we have to, I have to make a report and I have to recommend... so I'm recommending... that we forget about the three-way stuff. Er, we had a breeders' meeting in October which was... I enjoy them very much, I enjoy the... the talk because it's the first chance I get during the year when I can sit down and listen... and I don't have to worry about them generally, in another club, I don't have to worry about minutes or anything, I just sit and listen and it's great... it, I really enjoy that. [cough] Meetings... once again I have to say... the old, old... chestnut... please can we start at eight o'clock... er we're getting new members who... get a bit discouraged when we have a late start. I know it isn't easy... but erm... I think we should... you know, try and we... advertise starting at eight o'clock... and very often there's only Alan and I here at eight. So if we could all try our best to get here at eight o'clock. [speaker003:] Particularly when we're trying to get juveniles into the club... I mean they want to go at ten possibly... you owe them not starting till [speaker002:] Yeah... yeah. It's very difficult to [speaker003:] nine there's nothing, you know... they'll get discouraged. [speaker002:] So you John now... Jonathan... he's only fifteen, I know he looks in his twenties, but he's only fifteen and he's done a lot of homework... so it makes him... late and it makes him uncomfortable and he's fidgety because he... knows he's got to disturb us when he goes out, he doesn't... doesn't enjoy disturbing us, so... I have to make that clear to you. Erm... again i er the old story, we can't get speakers on a Monday and better luck in last year... this year, sorry... er... I was able to get Danny... but there again he came very expensive... erm... but we brought, we had to bring him from Lancaster so... er, you can't expect him to come for nothing. So... erm... and another thing I was going to suggest... [cough]... erm... I need help really... erm... for the meetings, I need somebody who will help, a social secretary say... somebody who will help with the raffles... and somebody who will organize meetings, what's going on at meetings... because it's getting, the job is getting most difficult... and I work part-time and it's, it's, I'm not getting any younger... and I'm finding it a struggle to try and get everything fixed, the raffles and the... what's going on and... everything organized, so if you, if you... if you could see the way clear, perhaps we could create a... social secretary or an assistant secretary where we could have... somebody who can give a hand with the organization of the meetings... [speaker003:] Just to get things like slide shows or erm... videos and things, you know, that's how we're gonna [speaker002:] organizing the raffles... just to get things like slide shows organized... videos organized... just a little bit of help. Will you? Thank you, Robert. Yes. [Emily:] So if we make a list of what we've got when you have a video night, if you or, or somebody else has the video... list, you can say, well if you bring them back [speaker002:] That's right... and we, Brian had the club slides... which he very kindly handed over to us... when he, he, he felt it became difficult for him... to cope with it... erm... cos his dad's not well. We have the club slides in our house... so that you know... really whoever takes over organizing the meeting should really have those and... they're all sorted out in order so... it's just a case of diving in the bag and looking for... whatever you want, ever the... I always try to bring some fish... to look at, to the... the scr to the screen... erm... some of the fish that were on show on the table for that particular sh er in erm... table show... because I think it shows interest and to learn more about the fish... and it's always... nice when somebody else knows a lot more about the... particular species than you do, and i is able to tell you... quirks and fancies that they have. So I always try to do that but I, I, again I find that... it's very erm... very tiring and it's very, gets very... can get very involved with it, so I would like... us, I'd like you to think of the idea of a social secretary... to help with the raffles and organizing what's going on at the meetings... please. Erm... and that's about all I have to say, Mr Chairman. [Bert:] need a proposer. [Emily:] I keep losing me place. I'll have put me [speaker003:] I know it's, it's not... not [Bert:] ... and the report from the treasurer... can we have your report, please? [speaker003:] This is what everyone's been waiting for. [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] have the er... figures in front of you... of our... progress during the last twelve months... you will no doubt see that we are in a very... nice... financial position... er only a pound and a penny off that magic thousand pound in... in the club now. Erm... during the year we've made about... er two hundred and... two hundred and twenty odd pounds. Er... it's not due to my... expertise at all, it's just mainly due to the fact we don't go to shows these days... we've always... in the good old days when we used to go to shows we spent probably a hundred and thirty to two hundred pounds a year so we never had very much money... as we don't go to these shows and spend this money it is... it is a it is accumulating each year. Erm... I'll go through, roughly through the accounts in case anybody's not quite clear what it's all about. Er... [cough] we started off with seven hundred and seventy five pounds, seventy six, at the beginning of the year... er... the membership is only thirty seven, we have fewer members but er... that's a very small proportion of our income. Four pound for visitors only seem to come and then disappear... not many of them seem to join us. Erm... because of a social evening er we had a raffle and a whiskey bowl... I think the purists might not like the E in whiskey but that's the way it's been done... that must be the southern way. Erm... [clears throat]... right the Yorkshire Aquarist Festival we had a coach... two ninety three pound on the coach... and a raffle... a hundred and six pound... erm... on the inter-club... we had a fourteen pound twenty five entry and we had a raffle, twenty nine twenty five, making forty three pound fifty. Yorkshire was quite a... success this year, we made a lot of money o on the income side... er sixty two pound for entries... ninety one pound ten for refreshments... hundred and nine forty for the raffle, our... kind and thanks to... Bert [speaker002:] Thanks to Bert it says here. [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] for breaking the record for four minute mile. The tombola... thirty nine again... thanks to Bill for breaking the records. Five hundred and fifty pound and sponsorship... coming from the members of course fifty three pound fifty. All our... w most of our money does come from... the members themselves as you've seen. Er... the er... the breeders' evening... now what happened on this breeders' evening is that the... they run the raffle... then give us our expenses out of it... so that eleven... pound eighty is the is the part of the... raffle proceeds which we need... to, to e to er... for our expenses, you'll see on the other side... erm... that we spent that eleven eighty, six... eighty for... er refreshments and five pound for the rent. Er, the rest of it they take... for the er... to keep the breeders' going... keep. Erm [speaker002:] oh yes... excellent. [Bill:] er... the coach to er... to er... Bowness... on the bus we took thirty nine pound... erm... with discount from last year... people who er bought some last Christmas... we made twenty three pound on that... the library, only thirty pence... course, we've had trouble with the library because... we can't leave it here now... and er... so that's why it's s so low the, the income. Er six twenty for the sale of badges... fancy some of that was from a previous year. [speaker002:] Yes it was... it was. I forgot about the sale of badges last year... [Bill:] that's probably two years actually er... income from that. sales that were left over from the open show, three pound thirty... fourteen pound ten for the collection, now that is... as you see, that is over from last year... last year the table show... so we actually have double the number of entries on the bench this year... which is a healthy sign... [Emily:] Really... that [Bill:] and er... hopefully... if we can only just bring enough fish each and every time... erm we'll even get it higher. Now as you can see, our main income is our raffles... two hundred and sixty pound, that is an increase of... ooh... seventy five pound on last year. Paid a hundred and eighty five last, two hundred and sixty this year. Er... I'd just like to thank everybody for their generosity... for taking part so. Erm... we're trying to have beer put on... the price each time now to make it worthwhile... so you get a chance of getting your money back. Right that makes a total of seventeen eighty six, sixty one... over the year. Erm, right on the expenditure side we have our normal subscriptions for the year, A S... erm the F B A S... which you all know, there's no strangers here who don't know what these are... the A L A... and the Whale and Dolphin er... Preservation Society which we have taken on as a personal thing... in the, in the er... name of the club... because it's cheaper... [speaker002:] No, it's in my name. [Bill:] It's in your name but it's on behalf of the club. [speaker002:] It's on behalf of the club, yeah. [Bill:] Because the... the, the club one's getting rather expensive... so we... yeah [speaker002:] Eighteen pounds. [Bill:] so we decided to join that for this year. The rent for the club room er five pound per go, a hundred and fifteen pound... erm the Christmas social, we spent fif thirty five fifty one on the refreshments and seven eighty nine on the whisky, making a forty three forty expenditure... the club trophies, we spent nineteen pound fifty this year and we saved a lot of money on that this year, we spent about a hundred and thirty to forty last year... erm so we have got a... quite a difference... just trying to find last year's... erm... there they are... trophies, a hundred and sixteen pound we paid last year... so have, we did save a lot of money by doing them ourselves more or less. Erm... the inter-club show erm... we had to pay judges... er... two of them... thirty pound, we would normally have got Keith for nothing, I know that... [clears throat] we had two judges so we had to pay them... er we did like so that's two fifty pounds and we bought some... we had some old trophies which we were able to buy plates for... to use for that event. Erm... postage and stationery eight forty four... raffle tickets... ten thirty eight... raffle prizes, sixteen twenty four, if I'm short. Erm... table show judges, we had a table at the beginning of the year when we had the gentleman from Runcorn, what's his name? [speaker002:] Paul. [Bill:] Paul came to... came to judge... erm... er that's the only time we've had a judge. Er... hundred and forty pound for the coach to Yorkshire... which we got... on the other side, a hundred and six pound back so the... club... er... sponsored that, a hundred and thirty four pound, and thirty four pound. Erm [clears throat]... right the open show... fifty nine ninety five for the hire of the hall, much the same as last year, it's keeping pretty well down... er, it's, we paid fifty three eighty last year, but I think because... little bit for a longer time this year. Erm... the judges, seventy five... er... and that's ten pound less than last year, maybe because we're struggling to get judges... forty two pound for the trophies... erm... [clears throat]... er, fifteen pound for the fish tank... and plates at seventy five forty seven, crisps, eight seventy eight, which we struggled to sell... we think you could sell crisps but we had a struggle. Postage, stationery, fourteen O six... raffle tickets, eleven pound, making a total of two thirty twenty six... as against on the other side the income, three ninety six... so we made a hundred and sixty six pound on... on the open show... which is a great... increase on last year because last year we only made... twelve pounds something... twelve pound and a penny we made last year, so this is a great increase. the coach to... the breeders' evening... that's what I mentioned before, we paid for the refreshments and the rent... show secretary has only claimed two pounds which is a scandal really... she's probably paid twenty out, twenty pounds [speaker002:] Yeah... I think so cos she's sitting here smiling. [Bill:] So Joe doesn't get so many mushy peas. Er... champion of champions... we've, I bought some prizes for the champion of champions, and food... er... just to go with the trophies... er Keith again was our judge and erm... knowing that he doesn't... willingly accept money, he wants to come and do it for nothing... erm... how many proposed that we... buy him something... a bottle to take with him, so we bought him a bottle of wine to take with him and er... that was the three pound. So that gives us a total... expenditure of seven eighty seven sixty two for the year... and that leaves us with a balance... er of the year and that's nine ninety eight ninety nine pence. So we're exceedingly well off really... for the size of the club... and my trip to... Amazon, up the Amazon collecting fish gets nearer and nearer [speaker003:] Gets nearer every day [LAUGHTER] You wouldn't get [Bill:] Erm [speaker003:] very far on a thousand pound though, would you? [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Well as I say... I mean we're doing very well... and all the money... and, and you know, ninety percent of the money comes out of the... the er... the members' pockets really... I mean ev even the sub for the open show, we put out a lot of that... even... the stuff and things like this, so we do provide an awful lot of money. Er... we haven't used very much of it this year... I mean I think er... I mentioned a few weeks ago the, the... question of trips out... perhaps in the spring to do fish and that, we could consider... er... we don't want to just go er... accumulating money for the sake of it... erm, we want to get some benefit out of the money we've got. Erm... we may of course go to... Bowness next year... if the circumstances change and we can manage it... that will course cost a fair amount of money... but that remains to be seen, we'll have to wait and see how the club progresses during the year... whether we think we can do it. Right, any questions?... No? [Emily:] We don't them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] We don't with thousand pound in his back pocket... can't be bad. [Bill:] It's coming to the stage soon when we'll have to put it in a building society, get some interest on it. I mean... sh shame in the banks... I mean we don't get charges any charges from this bank, I mean if, if you er... put it in some banks you get interest... charge you on your cheques and all sorts of things, it, it's as broad as it's long usually... but er... I mean we are gonna accumulate money, I don't think we should accumulate very much more now, we, we've ample funds for everything we need... er... but it's a question [speaker002:] But it's just lying in the bank dormant and it's not making any interest... I know it's not being, I know we're not being charged but... [Bill:] Trouble is building society, I don't know they do it. [speaker002:] Maybe you could... the only way we could do it is... er a joint account... and that would be have to be based on trust... you know, a mutual trust between er y your two main people... er y you would just have to trust them... erm... nobody, how do members feel about if you... That's true. [speaker003:] Well it's a and stuff like that, I mean... [Emily:] But I mean I the reason I propose... giving... he has to do is come [speaker003:] It's embarrassing. [Emily:] and sometimes he, he, he feels it be putting on those [speaker002:] Yes... yes... and he's such a nice man and he does it so willingly if he can. [Emily:] That's why he's... [speaker002:] Yes. Oh, I'll have one off him, yeah [Emily:] when it's done like, you know it's going [speaker002:] Oh yes, I'll have one him. [Emily:] Yeah, he's doing it. [speaker002:] Yes... yes. [speaker003:] We are struggling with judges aren't we? And what about, you know about the judges, don't you? [speaker002:] Yes, but it doesn't [Bill:] I just mentioned it er... we have we have had a suggestion from B class judges...... that er... that the B class judges can show at er... an, an open show... providing, providing they declare beforehand [speaker002:] Providing they declare their interests... [Bill:] it is what I've always thought for a long time that... somebody like Brian... if he's not... if he's not showing at our fish... at our show, even as an A class judge, I, I... fail to see why he can't... judge at our show... it's, he goes to Skelm and, and judges there and our fish will be there or...... strange really when we're struggling for judges that, that we don't do these things. [speaker002:] Yeah, but we're looking at the financial side, aren't we really? [LAUGHTER] W with Brian [] [Bill:] Well I know... I mean it... we're struggling to get judges, aren't we, and it's not going to get any better, it's going [speaker002:] No. [Bill:] to get worse if anything, not better... the way things are going. [speaker003:] We're obviously obviously... thinking along these lines [speaker002:] Is there? [Emily:] He, he was... apparently... and then... on the Saturday or Sunday h h he, he started to reject so he had to go back in. [speaker002:] Oh. [Emily:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Where did he used to live? Yes. Where was he from? So all, all the A class judges are getting a little bit long in the tooth now [Bill:] No more questions? No one, no more questions? [Bert:] I'd like er... to thank Alan... for being involved... erm... a proposer and seconder? [speaker003:] Proposed by... Steve... seconded by... [Bert:] Right er... please... can we have your report please. [Emily:] Well it's not much, I mean [Bert:] You would like to see more on the tables [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Emily:] Well we have had more fish out... yeah... we have had more fish out [Bert:] in the show [Emily:] Pardon? [Bert:] Where did we come in the show? [speaker003:] Ninth [Emily:] Ninth [speaker003:] Ninth [Bert:] that wasn't too bad. [speaker002:] I shall put in the report must do better! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Bert:] do better! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Emily:] we do want more fish out. [Bert:] any comment about... the s... the sort of format of the table show... do we want to change them at all [speaker002:] How, how did it work out on the champion of champions night with having the... the table show, the full table show that we cancelled when Danny came... er how did it work er did it work out comfortably? [Emily:] Oh yeah [speaker002:] Er I felt, I've been after Danny for nearly twelve months to come see... and not been able to get him on the night I want him... the only night he was able, was available was... I think it was one night when we had something else on... I can't remember what it was. Erm... I think it was an inter-club actually, oh the inter-club table show was the only night he could manage and that was no good to us... so erm... we, we... the only way we could do it was to t bring him the night that there was a full table show... transfer the full table show to the champion of champions... judge that first... and put the winning fish into the champion of champions and I know, well it's gonna be... woof... you know... a rush and that will, oh well, never mind. [speaker003:] Least we knew we'd get some extra fish didn't we? [speaker002:] yeah it's good that they had a fairer chance of getting on to the tables [speaker003:] twenty minutes [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So erm I'm... you kn I don't propose to do that again because I wouldn't er... I wouldn't arrange a speaker if we had a full table show but... it's nice to know that it did work out because we were, I was forced into a corner a little bit... erm and I think it was worth it because we... as I say I've waited a long time for Danny and he was well worth... listening to, I can listen to Danny for hours because he... he just speaks... and, and tells you about his fish, I'm, I'm very... very fond of listening to Danny cos I think he gives a good talk. he has... he... the same problems that we've all had... you know erm... and yes he's, he's, he's very easy to listen to... despite the fact that he's a southerner. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But we'll forgive him that [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] He comes from near Windsor, doesn't he, cos he said he has a mate has a fish shop in Windsor [speaker002:] That's right [speaker003:] often go to Windsor [speaker002:] That's right. [Emily:] We was looking at a video... erm it's an old one... and it's called Fancy Fish... and we were sorting our videos out to list 'em... and then we'll make a list... and then we'd let you have and then if you want a video and that, you know what you got... and we were looking through this Fancy Fish... and it's erm I don't know if you remember it, it shows an open show... at Oxford... [speaker002:] Oh yeah, I think so. Yes I remember. [Emily:] Anyway... it's an open show [speaker002:] Yeah [Emily:] ... [cough] I think the... and he's got longer hair. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah... yeah... Yeah [speaker003:] Well he still looks young, I mean despite the fact that he's a grandfather I think twice over Grandfather for years been a grandfather for years. [LAUGHTER] He's got a... a [LAUGHTER] Oh dear []. [Bert:] Right er... may I just make one comment on... by bringing the... table show... with Danny... and er th champion of champions... it er... it er I don't know how many people... champion of champions, [speaker003:] Can't hear you. [Bert:] you know, I, I couldn't bring all the fish... I mean I just put some on the table... I couldn't bring all the champion of champions [Emily:] Cos of the tank... couldn't carry it. [Bert:] because of the time and the [Emily:] Yeah [speaker002:] It probably would never happen again cos it was [Bert:] Yeah it was a lot of work [speaker002:] Yes... yes. [Bert:] We had no... how many people showed on Monday? five of them? [speaker003:] Yeah. There's a lot of it actually, it'd be nice if [Bert:] I realize that, you know... I would say five of them... five people in both departments... champion of champions... let's hope that it never happens again, you know, these things do happen. [speaker002:] Well is on that, you know. [Emily:] There was yourself... and, Jack... and... er... [Bert:] You didn't bring any? [speaker003:] No I didn't bring any, no [Emily:] Erm... that gentleman [speaker003:] Was it the cold water temperature It could have been worse could have been worse. Would only be... Couldn't have been really much better really, Well... [speaker002:] Yeah [Emily:] Well he was dashing out when I... when I called him... erm his wife answered the phone and she said you just him he's going out at the door... so he came rushing back and I said I wanted him to judge... champion of champions and... the and I said there'll be two... and he said, hang on, and he's write it down said I'll just stick it all at one and see to it when I come back, oh I gotta go and he went. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Emily:] And that was it. [speaker002:] Yeah yeah... yeah. Well he, he appreciated at the previous table show on the sixth of October... and that was a case when it was always... you know, because Danny only told me on that night that he could come. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Emily:] So it was all a hotchpotch, it was all... and I had to do the... the best... I could for those who showed fish and that was the only way I could do it. [Bert:] Right er... thanks Emily... for your report. Any proposers and seconders? [speaker002:] I'll propose Emily's report and, and in doing so I'd like to say... thank you to her for her sterling work this year, I think she's done a terrific job... erm and I'd like to thank her personally for the help she's given me over the year. I couldn't have managed without her. [Bert:] Any seconders? [speaker002:] Got to get your name in the minutes somehow. [Bert:] Right, thanks Emily. Erm... librarian's report... [speaker003:] sixty P and thirty P Oh is it? Thirty pence. Yeah well... [Emily:] We auc... we auctioned... the books after as you know... and erm... so I... I'll have to make a new list of what's left and let you have it. [speaker003:] I know I, I will be against they take books out once or twice and then... the older members don't take 'em out... I mean I know it's difficult... Yeah. having them at home... I mean... erm...... Yeah but they're still not... [speaker002:] They didn't... they didn't take them out of the Joe... you know... erm ... er I think we get a saturation point and the thing that annoys me is... that young fellow who came to the club... had a... got, we got a special went to the special trouble of getting a for him... and I cannot get it off him and he lives up Newton way somewhere... I've been to him three times... [speaker003:] I've been to that house... [speaker002:] and I've I've phoned three or four times... and you can get no reply... and I'm, I'm a bit cheesed off with it... cos this is the second time [speaker003:] small claims court. [speaker002:] For want of a better word they're actually stolen... books are stolen. [speaker003:] I'll get it... I'll get it back, I know where he lives. [speaker002:] Do you? I mean... [cough] Yes I've phoned and I've written three times... and I've written to his mother... our official letter, official no headed notepaper... she's not there, she works as a nurse doesn't she? She's not in till nine o'clock. Well they anyway, were they? They were order it specially... cos it's not a book you'd ask for often, is it I suppose. Yes I know er yes I er er I er er I, I think it's a good thing... that people, if they ask for information, you've got to buy books to get them. But what's aggrieved me is that he's just waltzed off with it... and not [speaker003:] It looks like he just and come here just to get a book. [speaker002:] I'll ask him and he's, he's just ignoring all the er... [speaker003:] That's right a letter that we're taking him to court I know there's a couple [speaker002:] Erm... yes. What was his name? Alan.

[speaker001:] Hope that was recorded. Erm, and this a rematch. [LAUGHTER] A rematch, I like that. I do trust we take on this issue which is opening [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay if we can move then to the agenda then, er, first of all can I wish all members and officers a happy new year and trust you had a, a festive season. [speaker001:] Thank you, Chairman, and you, [speaker002:] Yes, good health. Erm, item one. Apologies. [speaker001:] There are no apologies. [speaker002:] Any from the meeting? [speaker001:] Everybody's here. [speaker002:] Yes, okay. Item two, minutes of the meeting held on the eleventh of October. [speaker001:] No, no, those in favour. Yes, agreed with no dissentions, thank you. [speaker002:] We move then to item three, which is budgets ninety four, ninety five, and the capital programme marked B. [Mike:] That's my. Well thank you Chair. Erm, I think although members aren't concerned about the proceedings being tape recorded, the officers may be, in terms of you being able to produce a recording at a later date of what we actually say, which may be at variance with the minutes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Aha, hear, hear [Mike:] If we can start into the budget then, I think members will be fully aware of the wider context that the County Council finds itself in, and we're not proposing to rehearse that at any great length for you other than if you wish us to er, run through that again. Focusing in on social services, the points that I wanted to make to start er, to you were first of all the complexity of the community care situation, and you have a separate paper on that which Mr will be going through you, going through with you in detail. It is important that that's understood, and the sorts of issues arising from it are also understood. In essence we've been hit by something like a double whammy over the S S As. First of all the local authority's S S A as you know, has not been as we would have wished it to be, and that gives us less headroom for er, manoeuvring as it were er, with the various committees, and secondly the community care money is now solely distributed through the S S A whereas last year fifty percent of it came relating to usage. In other words the numbers of private beds that we have in the county and fifty percent was related to S S A for the elderly. It's not solely through S S A, and therefore, in line with your general er, problems over S S A, is you're now beginning to see one appear er, potentially in social services. Er, we believe that there is a shortfall, if I can put it that way, in quotes, of some seven hundred and fifty thousand in ninety four, ninety five, over what we would otherwise have expected to get if the previous method of distribution er, had been stuck with. So we er, we'll be highlighting that for you later, and er, we'll be discussing the issues. My main concern is that in fact, it may in itself produce the, er, a diverse incentive. Remember we're supposed to be moving from residential and institutional care to greater use of community and domiciliary care. My concern is that you may, in b fact find yourself in a situation where you're cementing yourself in to residential and institutional care at the expense of domiciliary care, and we'll explain that later to you, er, as we go in. The second point of concern is about children's services. We've still got the Children Act coming through, I know that may appear a bit odd, but that Act was in fact in nineteen eighty nine, but it's come through in a sense on an incremental basis, and it's accepted by the Department of Health and er, the S S I, that indeed, and the Audit Commission, that there are elements in the present settlement for the Children Act. We have got to face up to the Warner Report as well, which is to do with staffing in community homes, and again, that's an issue which we can pick up later, as we go into detailed reports. And finally, as you will know, there is a new Criminal Justice Act which will be coming through, there are new steps that are going to be taken about juvenile offenders. My view is, and it's been all along, that that will put pressure on your budget rather than decrease it, because it will tend to emphasise high cost residential er, solution. The final thing I want to say to you about children's services is, we have to, we have, having great trouble breaking into prevention. We are focusing most of our efforts er, on dealing with the legalistic situations in a sense, the situations in the courts, the situations of child protection, and we're having great difficulty breaking into prevention. Until we do, I would suggest, and it's not just about until we do, then, I don't think we're going to make really serious dint with the number of children that we now have in care. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Mike:] When we talk about our reductions, we will get to a point where the reductions that are being proposed to you, actually conflict with a number of policy directions that you are wanting to go in, and we'll flag those up to you. If I could give you just two very quick examples of what I mean, there is a proposal to reduce boarding out payments. Now, in effect, that's moving directly against the direction that we want to go in, we want to make greater use of domiciliary er, initiatives for young people, you have another paper on your agenda about teen care, which is showing what can be achieved with the most difficult youngsters. The second one, I just wanted to draw your attention to, was, it had to do with the home help service. Possibly we're looking to reduce home help hours, but this is at a time when, at the same time I'm saying to you, we're having problems with our S T G, our special grant for care in the community. We're trying to maintain people in the, their own, their own homes. We know that's largely what they want, but we're having possibly to move away from that. So I think these are issues that you're going to have to consider very firmly. And the final thing before, from me, before Mr starts for you, I wanted to welcome the fact that for the first year, there is a recognition of demographic growth change for social services, and I think that is most important. Up till now you always had to bid er, for issues arising from changes of growth in the population, and that particularly begins to pick up the issue about the aging population in the county, so if I can welcome that. If I can also finally say to you that if what you are, what, what you are reading in front of you, if these yellow pin pricks, whatever sheets on the budget go through this morning, as they are, you will only then be still spending at S S A level, you are not spending above it. So I think that that's an important point, because I do believe that weight is placed by the government on S S A. I do believe that if you spend under it, you will be told that you had the money er, for the services and so there's no use coming back and er, and making representations. And finally, I think that there is a recognition er, from P and R about the community care issue, but it will be important that we obviously debate that in these papers and discuss it this morning. Now, may I stop there then, and if Mr can come in with the detail. [speaker004:] Thank you. Could I just start with the white paper on community care funding because I think, as he said in the introduction, it is a complex subject, erm, and it does involve a lengthy transition period, and therefore in terms of its understanding, I think it's important that members are aware both how the money is coming to us, broadly what we're doing with it, and, and how it is that we've reached the conclusion that there's a great under-funding in the, in the present proposals. Erm, it's important to remember that this is, in financial terms, a four year transition period, and you haven't yet completed the first twelve months. So there is a shortage of hard information in some areas, er, it is a changing situation, and it is one where the Committee is under very clear instruction to extend the alternative care options that it gives to clients, and therefore that again is a complexity in terms of your ability to ensure you've got adequate funding and are directing it in the right areas in, in order to meet, not only the needs of people out there, but the changing needs and what is, Mike has already referred to as being the preferred solutions erm, many of which have not been available to people in the past. Erm, the other important point I think, if by way of introduction, is in paragraph two, and that is, just to make it quite clear that this is a transfer of funding where people previously went to the Department of Social Security and claimed Income Support in order to assist them in accessing services that were provided by the voluntary and private sector. It's not therefore new money that's coming to us, it's, it's money that's already in the system, it's being used by an existing client route, and it's being used to buy a chair that is already there. So there's no element in this in terms of a developing additional service, it's simply channelling the funding of that service to the local authority, where previously it went to the D S S. Erm, paragraph four, I er, refers to the fact that this is very much a joint process. This is something where the local authority is the lead agency, but it does involve, increasingly involve very close joint working with other agencies, particularly in the health authority, and there were various conditions attaching the funds, which have a number of, of purposes, but one of the key ones in terms of where you must spend your money, or a proportion of it, was very much aimed at not destabilizing the existing sector. There is a wish to see a move from residential care to home care and, and home help and community based care, but to see that it's done in an orderly fashion which doesn't destabilize the market that's out there, and doesn't put at risk the care of elderly people who are already using those existing homes. Erm, the financial elements I find complex, I'm sure from discussions with various members, they equally find it complex, but the position is, that in the current year, you have been given access to a specific grant. That grant is ring fenced, it can only be spent on community care defined elements, it includes the recognition that as well as buying care for people, you are for the first time, er, assessing people's needs. In the past, if somebody went to the Department of Social Security, they simply had to show that they didn't have the income to fund their place, and they then received Income Support. Nobody actually looked at them and said do you need the care that you're getting, or the care that you're accessing? So the new element of the system is very much that we, the local authority, the social services department, do now have to assess people's needs before we offer them any sort of care package to address those needs. So, I'm sure members of this Committee have heard this on several occasions as we've introduced the system, but we have had to put in a fairly complex and detailed system of assessing people's needs, producing care packages to meet those needs, offering choice to those people, and responding to that choice, then doing what the D S S used to do, I E, a financial assessment of their ability to meet the costs of that care, and settling our contribution, and we're involved therefore in contracting with the independent sector for purchase of that care, and with the collection of contributions from those individuals, with increasing numbers and increasing complexity. Er, the figures in paragraph five are shown there, but we had a recognition of that additional duty, and a variety of other minor changes which I won't go into this morning, that came through at the same time. Later in the paper I'll be explaining that, whilst there was also a recognition that there was a gradual build-up in the care requirements, there doesn't seem to have been the same explicit recognition that there's been a gradual build-up in the assessment and care management which has an increased ongoing cost in future years. Future commitments are referred to in paragraph six, and this is an, an important factor. When we take somebody, assess their needs and offer them a care package, in terms of the elderly, erm, and more importantly in terms of those with physical disability or learning disability, we have basically got to support that person for the rest of their life, and therefore, the commitment is not just for the current year, the commitment in, in the case of the elderly depending on what is being offered, whether it be nursing home care, or residential care is for several months or years. In terms of people with learning disability and physical disability we're talking about ten, twenty, thirty, forty years in, in many cases. So there is a long-term commitment in those cases. Mike 's referred to the change in grant distribution erm, the position on that is, is it's got a slide which may or not help people in terms of their... somebody's standing on it... I just love new technology, it's great [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The screen, the screen's twisted. Yes [speaker004:] I, I don't know whether people can see [speaker001:] It's the screen, it's the screen is twisted [speaker004:] Yes, I don't think there's very much we can do about that. Basically, can people see it, because I don't need to use it to any great extent, [speaker001:] Lift that you got let [speaker004:] just emphasising the point that [speaker001:] can you give George? No, not that, that's right, that's it probably be a little higher, if that helps. [speaker004:] The situation is that in the current year, we're saying we have a distribution of a specific grant which is ring fenced, roughly half of it came to us using er, S S A factors, standard standing assessment factors, and roughly, something of the order of half of it, came to us on the basis of one or two snapshots of what the D S S was spending in Shropshire in terms of supporting people in residential care. It was always the intention that there would be a gradual move from that distribution to one based entirely on S S A, but that's the current year position, where you're getting a specific grant, and it is distributed on those, broadly those two factors. For next year, that grant all moves across and comes to us, distributed through the normal S S A for social services and becomes part of the County Council's revenue support grant. In doing that, instead of being distributed on those two factors, it's all distributed using S S A. Now as a result of that, we always recognize there will be a loss to Shropshire County Council, because we've benefited from the previous distribution, and as far as we can see in real terms we've lost about a hundred and thirty thousand as a result of that move of a specific grant into distribution through your revenue support grant. For next year, we're also getting a further specific grant, which we're showing up here, but instead of continuing the distribution that we've got in the current year, the government have decided that that should be entirely distributed on S S A factors, and again that's been to the detriment of Sh Shropshire. I'm not saying that there wasn't an expectation that there would be a gradual move in there, and ultimately we would suffer and we would lose that level of grant. The difficulty I think that we're facing, is that it's happening in year two of a four year transition period, before we've really got to grips with what the long-term position is, what the overall demands are, and to what degree we are going to be able to model, change, control and, and influence those demands. Erm, so it is, how shall I put it, erm, unfortunate I think, in, in Shropshire's view, that they didn't continue along the distribution on the previous basis. Those two put together, I think we lost about three hundred thousand pounds as a result of the change in distribution. For the following year, the same thing will happen. The bid that to you as a specific grant next year will then itself be absorbed into the base for the following year, and there will be a new specific grant. But we've also been told this year, that there will be year four, beyond this slide, where the same thing could happen again. But ultimately, at that stage, the expectation is that they will say, well the bulk of the D S S monies have now been transferred to local authorities, and can safely be distributed through the normal standard spending assessment distribution, and the revenue support grant for local authorities, so at that stage you will cease to have any specific grant and one assumes that the conditions about where you spend it and how you spend it will also have been removed. But I'll touch on the reason why they don't need those condition in a few minutes. Just referring back to the paper then, we talk in paragraph eight of a grant shortfall. This is not directly related to the three hundred thousand that we've referred to, but obviously in part too. What has happened in the current year is we've started from no involvement with this particular group of clients, and building up where by the end of the year, our best estimate we're approaching six hundred clients so then we have a commitment of providing either residential care or some care package which keeps them out of residential care. Erm, I would have to say that's going to be in the range of five hundred to six hundred, and very much depends to some extent on what happens in the winter months, and I'm sorry to keep stressing this point, but we haven't yet got twelve months' experience of operating this particular change, and until we've got at least a year's experience, and I think one would have to say, that some of the figures need to be portioned, but equally, you can't afford to be too cavalier in terms of your assumptions about that demand might reduce to, and I'll touch a little later on how you control expenditure in those terms. We've therefore looked at experience to date, the best figures available from other agencies, we have close contact with the independent sectors in terms of their expectations of, of numbers, erm, and we have our own staff in the field, who have given us their best estimates of demand for the coming year. We've put those together, we've looked at the staff that we need to administer that particular level of activity, and we've come out with a figure that we think is a reasonable estimate, in fact I would go so far as saying, we think this is the lowest estimate that we can safely put forward, as to our needs for the coming year. They are some seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds less than is explicitly coming to us, either through the grant that's coming into the S S A, the base, or the new specific grant. And if you turn over onto page four,... and at last pick up both the graph and the figures that are shown there and... if it helps members, I can also put up the figures on the... I suspect not, I think there's, it becomes a little small for people. They, they're only replicating the figures within the papers anyway.... The position is, looking at appendix one, and if you take the first triangle, which has got nineteen ninety three, ninety four below it, that's showing that we started off with no clients, and then by the end of the year we expect to have a number of people in our care, receiving services, to which we have a degree of commitment. Erm, we have managed that level of activity with assessments, er, care management staff, financial assessment staff, income staff, contracting staff, staff who are dealing with complaints, erm, and, and monitoring er, er, at a cost of four hundred and fifty thousand pounds estimated in the current year. There is no explicit provision in the specific grant for an increase in that. Now we've chosen to spend that amount of money, we didn't have all the staff in place on the first of April, we have recruited them during the year, as demand has risen. We therefore, by the end of the year, will have staff in place where the full year commitment to paying for those staff is in fact some six hundred and eighty six thousand pounds. Erm, and that's shown in the chart in appendix two below the diagram. We will be dealing with all of those existing clients in terms of reassessing both their care needs and their financial ability to contribute to whatever package of care they're getting, as well as taking on board all the new ones who present themselves for the first time in nineteen ninety four, five. So what I've tried to show diagrammatically is that, we start ninety four, ninety five with plans in place, shown by the vertical dotted line on the graph, a number of those will die or leave the system for other reasons during the year, and we've taken a fairly optimistic view I would say, erm, optimistic in the financial sense, that a significant number of those will leave the system during the year. It may not be optimistic in terms of the client's views of it, but... that's the position we've taken. But we still are left managing those people in ninety four, ninety five, as well as taking on board the new triangles, the one with the horizontal lines, where we're going to get people presenting themselves for the first time, and requiring services. So we will need to manage the whole of that block to the right of the dotted line, and therefore I think, members will appreciate that we are not going to do that effect, or indeed do it at all, if we simply continue spending at the four hundred and fifty thousand pounds which is the costs that we're incurring in the current year. Erm, our best estimate is that we need the six hundred and eighty six thousand that we're committed to, plus another two hundred and seventeen thousand in terms of additional staff to deal with the additional demand as it comes in. Erm, so that clearly is trying to get across the fact that this is a transitional and phased implementation, where costs are gradually increasing. The importance of having people in to deal with it, is a critical one. The process starts with a needs driven service of somebody being referred to us. Either a self-referral or referred by the G P, or by a consultant, or by the hospital, or one or two other sources. We are required to assess them. We can't turn round and say, sorry we can't afford to assess you, there is a requirement that if somebody presents themselves, we have to assess their needs. If we haven't got sufficient staff in place to do that, there will be delay. Quite clearly we can only do that with the resources available to you, and if the demand exceeds the ability of those resources, they will have to wait. The key area in terms of waiting, I've referred to later in the report, perhaps we can move on to that. It's been highlighted by the Audit Commission, you might pick that up in paragraph eleven, and that is hospital discharges. We are involved in supporting the funding of people who move into nursing homes. Nursing homes are still registered by the health authorities, so their ability to meet, and setting of standards that they're required to meet, are still set by the health authority, registered by the health authority, and monitored by the health authority. [speaker001:] Can I ask, erm, where number eleven's gone? Page two [speaker004:] Page two of the white sheets. [speaker001:] Page two Bottom of page two [speaker004:] Bottom of page, page two and the top of page three okay, [speaker001:] No, the other way On the white sheets, that's it yes, Ah, I'm sorry for all that, I'm really sorry. [speaker004:] The position is that when we admit anyone to nursing home care, they can only be admitted if there is a joint assessment partly by a social worker from this department, partly by either the nurse or G P, or consultant, and the, the key element needless to say in that, in terms of need, is very much the health authority input. Erm, therefore we, to all intents and purposes, cannot actually control the demand at that level, demand will be set by the people committing themselves to the health service, where the health service are assessing their needs, and saying this patient needs nursing home care. Erm, so if we haven't got enough staff to deal with that process, then there will be deadlock in the hospitals. We've got an arrangement with the health authority about the maximum time we will take in assessing somebody for discharge from hospital. We have met that very well in the first nine months of the system. I won't say it's been perfect, it can never be perfect. That's well over ninety percent of the cases have been dealt with in the er, in the timescale that we've set out and agreed with the health authority. We do therefore need to consult with the health authority if we find ourselves in a position where we think we're no longer going to be able to achieve those targets. Erm, the Audit Commission has very much picked on the point that they see a key area of community care success, is in avoiding deadlocking, having adequate discharge arrangements, having agreements with health authorities, and meeting those agreements. So there's not a great deal we can do about that end of, of our responsibilities. And that is the high unit cost end, with the people who move into nursing homes, and obviously our highest cost, with the exception of certain very complex cases on physical disability, erm, where we, we do occasionally get higher cost packages keeping people out of the nursing home. The position therefore is you don't look at residential care, erm, yes, over a period of time we could raise the requirements or the need levels that allow people access to residential care. Erm, that cannot be done overnight, and it's one that clearly needs to be looked at and, and managed and the care needs as stated in that management. The easiest one, and the one undoubtedly is the one that will continue to be used to keep whatever needs that we have presented to us within reasonable financial budgets, will be on the home care, respite care, day care, er short-term emergency admissions, support in the home, and indeed our ability to develop those services. To develop them in a form that meets people's real wishes as opposed to the cheapest option or the easiest available option. So if we do under-fund, and I'm not suggesting in these proposals that there is any major under-funding in the proposals in front of you this morning, but the dangers of under-funding are that, inevitably they will first impact on the end that we are being asked to develop as alternatives. Erm, the final point on the shortfall of funding is as I'm, keep emphasising, forgive me for repeating this, this is going to be year two of a four year transition. If we get it wrong in year two, it will be even more wrong in year three, because the distribution isn't going to alter dramatically in our favour, so if there is under-funding in ninety four, ninety five that we manage, it will present itself as a larger problem in ninety five, six, and an even larger problem in ninety s six, seven, so that needs to be borne in mind. The conditions attaching to grant are that the D S S transfer, eighty five percent of it has to be spent on the independent sector, and there are monitoring mechanisms in place whereby the government is going to assure itself that has happened. Erm, we assume that there will be a similar condition for specific grants for next year. However, when we had the grant announcement, it also announced that the conditions attaching to that grant, would be announced separately. We were in touch with the Department of Health last week and were assured that that announcement was im imminent, that the Minister had not yet agreed what those conditions would be. This is somewhat unfortunate because by the fourteenth of January we are supposed to agree a purchase plan with the health authority, and it's a little difficult to do that in the absence of the knowledge of what conditions are attaching us to where and how you can spend the money. Our belief is that if there is any change it is likely to be a change requiring a certain proportion of the grant to be spent in the domiciliary day care area rather than the residential area to enforce this wish of developing those sort of services. But as yet we've not had an announcement on those, what those conditions are attaching to the use of the, of the grant. And finally Chairman, budget proposals which we've referred to in paragraph fourteen and fifteen are that in recognizing there's a potential estimated shortfall of some seven hundred and fifty thousand, that five hundred thousand pounds be put towards that. Erm, there is also in the Policy and Resources papers that were accepted by Policy and Resources on, on Friday, er, reference to reviewing that five hundred thousand and indeed other changes that I'll come on to later in the budget package. But, what we would say to you I think this morning, Chair, is that in your officers' view erm, yes, we think it is sensible to go forward and manage on the basis of five hundred thousand pounds addition towards that shortfall, we become increasingly nervous if that five hundred thousand pounds is reduced, and because of the uncertainty, again later in the papers you will see still have some contingencies that you could use from savings in previous years, and we will be strongly recommending to you that you retain some of those contingencies because of the uncertainty that still attaches to demands in the community care grants. [speaker002:] I mean if we just take a, a breather there maybe for, for some member comments, I mean I think there's some, some elements that members might want to comment on, particularly to do with settle settlement [clears throat] excuse me, the sort of policy direction, and some of the suggestions that, that are going against our policy direction and we have these taken over several years now, and also the issue about the aging population and the, the demographic, graphic growth, and our, our consistency of spending at government standing spending assessment. Er, Malcolm then Mrs. [Malcolm:] Yes, thank you Chair. Er, I'd, I'd like to refer to paragraph seven on page two, which describes how the S T G for this coming year is going to be distributed just by S S A rather than by the, the two previous formulae together. Erm, with, with a detrimental affect to Shropshire. Now presumably somebody in government or Whitehall has just taken a decision to, to go for it all in one year, I don't know why, I, I don't suppose we're told why, but the, the consequence of the decision is actually going to be that people in Shropshire, our clients and social services are going to pay for that decision, either through paying charges for services that they now get for nothing, or by getting less services, er, and this doesn't seem to be in line with the government's stated aim of, of targeting money where it's most needed. I mean the decision actually has made no difference to government spending in total, it's just the way the cake has been sliced. It seems quite arbitrary, and quite without, without logic. Erm, have representations been made about this? If not, then I propose that we do it. I don't know what good it does, but if enough people do it often enough, maybe they'll talk to us a bit sooner. [Mike:] On, on the point of representation, in fact, er, I think there have been representations made already be those authorities who felt they were disadvantaged in the first case, and so what you've seen with, using this method of distribution, is a switch actually, of expenditure to London boroughs, London boroughs felt that they had lost, er, in the first round of S T G, but now if you look at the overall spread they and the er, Mets have gained. The second point is that the A C C are, are, I think, the second point is that there was a deputation to the Minister yesterday, so if, in a sense it's a little late unless it was picked up by Mr yesterday, it may be a little late to do something for this year, er, I mean obviously next year is I think going to be the er, important issue, and the A C C has already circulated all Shire counties er, it's picked up that this has happened to the majority of counties, although again the south east er, has escaped from that, and it's asking for the sort of figures we're debating this morning. And I know it's their intention to discuss it and to make appropriate representations. [speaker002:] Shropshire always tends to lose out because of where we are, er, Mrs. [speaker006:] Now, erm, yes, I'd like to pick up a comment made by the Director, erm, he said quite rightly that the prevention factor is really out of the window as far as the budget is concerned, and pro as far as operations are concerned. Am I taking that correctly? [Mike:] I was talking about children's services, yes [speaker006:] Yes, yes, well I am too, and that we shall pay the penalty later on if we don't get with us and I feel that erm, as difficult as the budget is, as tight as it is with reduction etcetera, I feel that we should make a positive funding for prevention or something, or er, because I think unless we do start somewhere, and quickly, we are going to pay the penalty at the end of the and so we've got to make a date, you've got to make a year, and if you wait and say and well we haven't got it now, well next year we shall say we haven't got it now, and the next year we'll say we haven't got it now. And I think that somewhere along the line, erm, even if it's only a moderate sum, we should make definite erm, approaches to start the ball rolling in this preventative effect, because I think we're going, every, every budget head in the whole of the county or anythi or anybody else who's got a budget, is going to pay the penalty, so I would like that to see if there's any movement, any way we can address that particular problem, er, during our, our discussions. The other one that worried me a bit, is how are we recr recruiting? We seem to be erm, taking on an enormous number of staff, er, er, at what level are we doing it? How are we doing it? Are we just moving people around from where they were becoming redundant somewhere else? What, I mean, just, you know, what are we doing in the county? What is the format? What is the, er, methodology? What is the, erm, er,, or scale, or whatever? We're just recruiting staff, it's the information about how, I'd like to know a bit more about that. [speaker002:] Presumably we recruit well qualified people to be able to do their job [speaker006:] Are they? We don't know. [speaker002:] at the right rate of pay. [speaker006:] Well there's training, isn't there, to give to them? [Mike:] Well, just generally, we haven't restricted recruiting of care staff, in other words, unless we know there's a decision been made about a residential establishment which there hasn't been at present. So obviously if a cook goes, a cook has to be replaced, if a care assistant goes, a care assistant has to be replaced, as long as the population is there. That's the basis [speaker006:] I'm talking about new staff [Mike:] the basis, well, that we're working on, on existing staff. New staff in the main, have been connected with care in community, and you've heard really Mr explain to you already what they're doing. We got specific money, in other words, the government flagged up that in the first year, there were going to be infrastructure costs, and so there was a specific allowance made for that, and we've been recruiting gradually, not all at once, over a period of time, as the numbers of people coming into the community care system rise, we've been recruiting new staff there. Now, they're of two sort, there are the administrative staff, the financial staff, in other words, that have to do the physical assessments er, financial assessments which by the way are more complicated now than they were previously, because there's all sorts of different elements and agreements having to be reached with individuals, or charitable institutions or whatever. And the other are the people doing the physical assessments, for example in the hospitals, er, at Princess Royal Hospital in Telford, I think, we had to, I can't remember the exact figure, but we certainly had to increase our staff there, our hospital social workers to secure the throughput that's er, being required. Yes, we do go for qualified staff, er, I'm talking about social work field staff now, er, wherever possible we would go for that. We have about a ninety, ninety five percent, I think, qualified staff, and that has improved over the last eight years from [speaker001:] Fifty odd [Mike:] fifty percent I think, er, when we first started. So that's the general direction. We have problems in residential care with particularly, with residential child care, with the numbers of qualified staff. Lack of them. And that was the reason that the government brought in a new initiative after the Warner Report, and there's a specific training grant that you now get to ensure that your training staff, your, your residential staff get trained. But I have to say for Shropshire, it means one I think, er, per year, and that's not going to make a big dent. [speaker006:] Any other [Mike:] Sorry can you just repeat? [speaker006:] The preventative work. [Mike:] The preventative work. Yes, well you are talking about children's services, but, I, I think if Mr 's going to talk later to this, if you want, but we are absolutely at the moment, we know that eighty nine percent of work at the child care centre is to do with child protection with... to deal with it, and by that I mean abuse, physical and sexual abuse, er, concerns about that and a lot of that of course is, is tied up in procedural ways, and we're dealing with events almost after the situation has er, got going, er, and of course, with the courts, you know that we've got duties in relation to the courts, that we, we have to fulfil or else we are the subject of criticism from the er, courts, and we have been rapped at various er, times. So with what we need to break into, we, we [speaker006:] I'd like to get Mr [Mike:] as you know with dint of great effort, got er, the er, scheme off the ground, which has taken a lot of, all of us a lot of hard work, er, and we're proposing other schemes at Bexford House. We need to move more into that area of work, that sort of prevention, and we need if possible to move more in partnerships with voluntary organizations, but if we do that, er, then we will have to pay them. You know, they're not going to do it for nothing. [speaker002:] I think the problem with erm [clears throat] with prevention and, I mean, and I suspect that, that there is, er, unity of the board in relation to prevention, but we, we don't see the cost savings. The cost saving in the preventative work, er,fall falls later on in the system, and that might not even accrue back to local government, and that's the problem and I think if there was some specific erm, government grants that enabled local authorities to really get to grips with the preventative elements and could should that, that reduced overall government spending on the other end, on the impact end, I mean, I think we would be, we would be sort of making very much headway, but there doesn't seem to be that specific initiative at this particular stage. [speaker006:] Perhaps if we can arrive at some sort of specific amounts or some research in that direction, we might Mr Chairman, be able to take representations to government in a more positive way. I mean I think you know, to talk about it in, in terms such as you, I mean quite rightly, you've done so, erm, leaves us with no real impact er, argument. [speaker002:] Well, it, it might be that once we've dealt,, once we have dealt and, and are dealing with the budget, it might be that we, we receive some, some papers erm, from the department for future social services reports. Er, we've already got some items on the agend agenda this morning, specifically to do with issue of teen care, but it might be that we look at, at, at a lot earlier maybe some joint reports with other colleagues in education, to look at some innovative work, erm, that if it was specifically ring fenced government grant, we can actually get our teeth into, that would provide a cost saving for governments in the future. [speaker006:] Chairman, Chairman, I think that's an excellent idea and I think one to erm, prove ways of cost saving is to involve erm, more nursery education, because one sum spent before five, it apparently costs six pounds or its equivalent. It's probably tied up with education as well [speaker002:] But I mean, out of this lot maybe we can look at some [speaker001:] Chairman, if we take Mrs, Mrs 's point under the children's services plan which is later in your. [speaker002:] Yes, last speaker then, then we'll move on with the budget document, Tom. [Tom:] Sorry, Chair I ju [clears throat] I just would like, a little concerned that er, we've accepted the five hundred pounds, er, the five hundred thousand pounds community care shortfall, where our own calculations originally were six hundred and ninety two thousand, have now gone up to seven hundred and fifty thousand. Er, I've seen other papers where there is a hint that we might be looking for a contribution, er, out of the general budget, er, of that difference, that two hundred and fifty thousand. We're talking a lot of money here and I wonder whether we're a little bit erm, over-optimistic that the five hundred thousand is going to be adequate. [speaker004:] Chair, I think have to make a point at this stage, although as I said earlier, we haven't got a complete picture yet. We are estimating as best we can, these figures will change, and indeed they are changing as we try to move towards a more detailed purchasing plan with the health authority, to take in the changes, they may go up, they may go down. That's certainly the best estimate at the moment. I'm happy with the five hundred thousand pounds suggestion, but my view when you come to the papers, if we are able to hold on to the two hundred thousand contingency we've got for community care for the elderly and, and the hundred thousand we've got for bad debts and other figures. I think it's very much linked with the safeguard being that we have got the one year cushion of, of carry forwards sums there to meet any immediate problems within the year, and give ourselves breathing space to, to address those in the longer term. [speaker001:] You, you did promise me Mr Chairman, that I could just ask a quick question. [speaker002:] Oh, sorry. [speaker001:] It was just on, on appendix one, was that, was that in total department part of the care in the community in general, or was it hospital discharge, I wasn't too clear on that? General, mm, general, yes Is the, is the projected grant likely to go up at the same rate as in, as in nine ninety four, ninety five? There's a sort of fifty percent increase, it seems a, you know, a huge increase, but is that going to settle down? [speaker004:] It will settle down and reduce Chair, through you, that the, the, the national figure has been announced that the, for the future year, and it does recognize the fact that there is an assumption that the number of people who D S S continues to support directly will have fallen by thirty five percent by the end of this year, and there will be a further fall, and the amount that's transferred is very much related to here's the total available, how much does the D S S need to hold on to meet its commitments, and how much is left to distribute to the local authorities. So it will be a smaller figure in terms of the specific grants in ninety five, six. Okay? [speaker001:] Thirty five percent of total? [speaker004:] Thirty five percent of people supported by the D S S, they are assuming will, will not be there at the end of the first year. I think they're optimistic in terms of that point. [speaker002:] If, if we can move on then. [speaker004:] Chair, if I could move on then to the budget proper, and I apologize for the numbering. As you'll appreciate it, we've put one or two papers together into one paper, and therefore the numbering tends to repeat itself, so we're on page one again, but under the heading of the budget for ninety four, ninety five. I would draw members' attention to the notes in block type at the head there, and that is you are working to guidelines which have been agreed by the Policy Panel and Policy and Resources. They are guidelines, there are no final decisions to be taken in terms of the implementation of a number of these, but this is the Committee's opportunity to view those in detail and make its recommendations through proposals to Policy and Resources Committee and on to Council. Final decisions as always on your budget will be taken at the Council meeting in February. The guidelines are set out in paragraph two, in terms of the, the strategy. This is within, as members will be aware, the overall financial position that the County Council finds itself in, of having to get its expenditure within the cap, and the fact that the increase in cap for the authority as a whole, does not in any way, mirror the increase in standard spending assessment for Social Services Committee, where we have been fortunate in terms the increase for this county, erm, and a variety of other factors which, which mean that it would be nice to think that where S S A increases for this Committee, it also increases for the County Council. I think if that were the case, you would have far fewer problems, but er, of course this isn't the position. Paragraph three looks at the guidelines in detail, and starts with the additions, and as Mr said earlier, we do welcome the fact that there is an explicit mechanism for the cost of client number increases in social services in the coming year. We have got a growing, ageing population, and that does put further demands on your services, and those are shown there in summary form for the client groups, and there are more details on those when we get to the additions and reductions lists on pages thirteen and fourteen, later. So I don't intend to go into the detail at this stage. Other variations shown there, again we will look at in more detail, but essentially these are loss of income, grant income, or additional expenditure, in terms of registration inspection in community care, er, to continue either existing services, or to meet unavoidable legislative change. The total there, therefore, for this Committee, is proposed guideline growth of one point five, five, five million. [speaker001:] M I S G. [speaker004:] Yes, to think, M I S G is mental illness specific grants, in case we pick that up later, and the E S F is the European Social Fund grant. Over the page, [speaker001:] We'll definitely have an addition in there. [speaker004:] But they are recorded in full later, Chairman in the summary, I've used the abbreviation [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker006:] Chairman, if they are recorded all later, it took me quite a long time to discover them, could we have, abbreviations just written out, it makes it very difficult for me to, I'm not used, I mean, I'm [speaker004:] I take the point Chair [speaker002:] Just in brackets, sort of just in pencil or Euro or something. [speaker004:] I don't think education comes into it, Chairman, because they change them every other year anyway, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] They make them up as they go along. [speaker002:] It'll confuse them [speaker001:] You're obviously [speaker004:] The position on page two then shows the reductions targets, where we've got a, a target for efficiency savings of hundred and thirty five thousand, service reductions on income generation costing six hundred thousands, and a proposal that we use a hundred and eighty thousand of the Committee's carry forward savings in the first year, erm, that is obviously a one year only reduction, and indeed a Policy and Resources Committee and a report of treasurer to that committee, did make the point that committees will be aware that they must use the carry forwards in funding reductions in four, five, will have to matched by service reductions in future years. In terms of the papers in front of you this morning, Chair, the position is that, that is addressed over the three year period, and the figures do fluctuate between years, so there is a, as we'll see later in the paper, there is a, a net expenditure total in year one which increases in year two, but then is offset by a, a reduction in year three. Er, paragraph four Chairman, is the point that Policy and Resources when it was addressing the fact that all of the proposals from committees that's currently within the guidelines did still leave a shortfall between projected expenditure of the County Council and the capping limit. And the suggestion to this Committee was that it looked, that it looked further at the five hundred thousand pounds guideline that's been set to address the apparent shortfall on community care funding, and also that you should look at further service reductions and their implications erm, of reductions of a further two hundred and fifty thousand, and those are again picked up later in the paper. Erm, the salmon pages set out the proposed strategy to meet those guidelines, and as I say, we'll pick those up as we move through. Chair, paragraph seven, the guidelines on capital. Erm, we didn't have those when these papers were prepared, but the position is, that there is a guideline for new starts for this Committee, of some seven hundred and eighty six thousand pounds, with two hundred thousand being set aside to go towards architects and other fee costs associated with that programme, and the existing programme. Erm, Chair, I think when we come to the capital programme you will be proposing that the P A G advise you and the Director in terms of producing a package which meets those guidelines, erm, and given the opportunity to look at them in some detail. But there will be an opportunity for members to look at the present programme which will need pruning to get it down to those guidelines, and they can obviously make any comments they wish to, or any advice they wish to give the P A G in terms of individual schemes or the detail. Erm, the rest Chairman, is showing the erm, contents and the main budgets I think. If you wish to er, spend time on those. Moving to page three, is the revised estimates for your Committee for the current year, and you'll see there, the format is somewhat to the one you've seen in future years, we have had [speaker001:] In the past [speaker004:] Sorry, in [LAUGHTER] I'm getting ahead of myself already. It's different to, to the way you've seen in the past. Erm, as well as introducing care in community we also have the joy of putting a new standard form of accounts for social services during the current year, and this is a national requirement that I think does make for logical presentation, and does differentiate between what is termed service strategy and regulation, before put management functions that you will be required to incur whether you are a direct provider of the services or not, and then the costs of actually providing or commissioning services for the various client groups. Erm, within that Chair, you will see that there are various variations, erm, totalling a net increase of four hundred and eighty thousand in the year. If I could refer you to the block beneath there on carry forwards, you started this year, bringing forward savings and under-spendings and various other contingencies of just over one and half million. You have during the year, er, both through this Committee, and through Resources and Management sub-committee, agreed expenditure of seven hundred and seventeen thousand from that contingency. Erm, the reason that that doesn't tie in with the four hundred and eighty thousand pound er, increase in spending is that offsetting that seven hundred and seventeen thousand that you've funded from your contingency, there is also a net reduction in spending by the Committee because of the changes in the devolution of central department charges and their allocation through committees, well less have been allocated to Social Services Committee in total. Erm, the position then on carry forwards, Chairman, is that you have a number of specific contingency provisions that we are holding, funded from these previous savings. As I've already said, I would wish the Committee to hold on to those specific ones relating to community care at this stage, until we have a more certain picture. I think from the County Council's point of view, the safeguard is there is no proposal to make those available for other spending within the committee and therefore, if hopefully we do not need to access them during the year, they are still available for Council in future years to, to meet other spending requirements. Erm, there are also provisions in there for the Children Act, where we are holding a contingency of eighty two thousand. I would draw members' attention to the spending on Children and Families Committee during this year, which in fact, is net some three hundred and nineteen thousand above the base budget. We have had considerable difficulty in the current year, in meeting the demand upon children's services, and we have met those difficulties, in no small part, from the use of carry forwards within the year, and before you come to looking at reductions in services on the salmon papers, the children's service is going to, and in fact is doing a redirection of its funding to ensure that it stays within its base budget in future years. That does mean that they have already had a very difficult exercise in terms of looking at an, an efficiency effectiveness distribution of funding and how they manage the service, and that's very much tied in with the children's services plan, which Mike referred to earlier on, and which is later on the agenda. Erm, so I would certainly be asking you to keep some contingency provision in that area, because we project some very expensive one-off demands on certain elements of children's services. Erm, disability and mental health has a specific contingency of fifty thousand, and again this is addressing the point that we have tried to reduce expensive out-county placement, erm, successfully. But it only needs one that you cannot avoid, and you'll be spending said fifty thousand pound plus per annum in respect to that one patient. Erm, and the other one is the registration and inspection, where in the current year we have access to the best part of sixty five thousand pounds from to meet registration inspection, and you'll see in the additions list, that, that there is er, a bid in there for the ongoing costs of that. It's substantially to do with registration of inspection duties arising from the Children Act, the registration and inspection of childminders, erm, workplace creches, and and Mike can go into detail on that if members wish. But er, it is an area where we are required to register and inspect, and unfortunately if we're not happy on one these inspections, we are also required to, to pursue those, and ensure that there is improvement or cessation of the service. Erm, that on the carry forwards leaves a balance in hand of a hundred and eighty thousand not specifically earmarked, and, and I must say, it's up to you to decide what should be specifically earmarked. But that is the hundred and eighty thousand that was shown in the budget deductions of being a contribution towards the guideline in the first year. Over the page Chair, within er, those totals there are a number of proposals for reductions in c certain areas of spending and increases in others, which are in excess of the amount which has been delegated to, er, to the Director to agree, and which needs this Committee's approval erm, and would then go on to er, Resources Management for, for their agreement. There are net nowhere where we are using both one-off and fortuitous savings in certain budget heads to meet unavoidable expenditure we come on within the year, and therefore keep within the Committee's overall cash limit for the year. And I hope Chair, that those will meet with members' approval this morning, but we will need to take a resolution on those. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] If members have any specific questions on the revised estimates and those details, I'd be happy with colleagues to, to them. [speaker002:] Comments? [speaker001:] One question, and that is that I noticed on page three, er, you've got your revised estimate with effect in ninety four, five, you've got nothing. [speaker004:] Correct, the position Chair, is that we are, as I said earlier, endeavouring to pull all those committees overspending back in line with the budget in ninety four, five. Therefore, we're not, other than the specific items that appear on your additions list, we're not looking for any growth in the base budget at this stage, over and above that that's already built into your budget base. [Tom:] Could we, could we have a comment on page four on the proposed two and three erm, I mean, section levels of staff sickness. Are we monitoring this? In one case in the community homes it says staff absence, and I'm not clear what there is for training purposes, but I would hope that we are checking, or was this simply before Christmas, or what? [speaker001:] This Chair, has er, been a particularly difficult year with a, with a higher than average level of er, sickness, er amongst staff. Erm, the result er, was that we had to bring in relief staff, and other staff have had to work overtime. Staff absences actually refer in the main, to er, unfortunate situation of a number of staff this year, who have er, been suspended, er, because of er, various matters, er, which have had to be worked through. For members' information, we have asked the Manpower Services er, Unit to undertake an exercise on the level of staffing in our homes, as much as anything, because of the frequent reference in visitor's reports to the situation on staffing levels in our children's homes. Er, this is er, drawing to a conclusion, and er, in time, the results of that exercise will be, be reported to committee. [Tom:] But you're having because I think if we are going to carry on using them, these absences should be translated into suspensions, and if that there's any problem we do know that situation pertains. Erm, but what I'm really thinking, is somebody looking actually into the sickness and is this a question of long-term sickness or are we dealing with outbreaks of flu. I know at last erm, budget meeting we talked about doing so for the entire health survey, because really the amount of money spent on sickness is quite astronomical, and one does need to look at this when you're having to meet your budget. I fully accept that and we hope, but I hope some monitoring is taking place. [speaker001:] That exercise Chair, I can assure Mrs, has been taken alongside the Manpower studies exercise. Number four issues. [speaker002:] Okay, and number four. Do you do this Paul? [speaker001:] Two on page four Sorry, we have some, I think is we, one of the concerns has been, I've been visiting has been the need to, feeling of security in many factors. If one person's on duty, you would a situation where really that was a bit of risk quite often, and er, it's not an acceptable thing but er, I totally agree we need to agree very carefully if one's wise to whether the initial staffing is adequate or whether it is case a of people not having [speaker004:] The position, Chair, if I can just quickly through you, say in terms of this budget, we do make a provision for absences, because obviously we do get sickness absence. [speaker001:] Of course, [speaker004:] In a number of cases, there is a minimum level of, of staffing that is required, and therefore it isn't a matter of managing until the person comes back, you do have to replace. We have had an exceptional level erm, probably the reasons such as stand-by and maternity absences and a variety of others which essentially are above the level that we normally budget for. [Tom:] What they were given to you? And if that work had been started, because as far as I'm concerned sickness does not cover maternity. So we need, it's simply a question of pulling in on the reasons for this, if it's maternity, it's suspension, it gives us much more understanding than simply globally assuming everybody who's away is sick. [speaker004:] I take the point Chairman, and, and suggest by the criticism we will try and get more explicit detail in the future.... In salaries or joint finance funding, so where there are differences it is almost entirely down to those two factors. It does give members an indication of the level of expenditure on particular services, and for the first time, we are showing within these papers, in terms of the budget, the amounts that you're spending on the direct provision of services, and the amount you're spending in terms of services that you buy in, and don't provide directly, and this is shown on, on the service page. Needless to say in terms of elderly, learning disability and physical disability, there will be an increasing amount bought in, as the community care transition er, continues. Erm, nothing Chair that I would want to refer to other than the, on page eleven we're showing a figure there for management and support. This is both central management costs and those direct support costs within the divisions, and within the services, that is recharged over provisions of service, so that you're getting a true cost, in terms of your costs of running the elderly services, the children and family services, so they include both directly man management costs. In those, there are a number of staff who are, what we would call front line health based staff, who are there in supporting social workers and providing direct services to your client group. They, the vast majority of them are not Shire Hall based er, administrative staff or what I think is generally er, the view, er, the general view of, of management and support. Indeed, in looking at the structuring in a different guise, we have got erm, something less than seven percent of total costs, that relate to erm, indirect management and administrative costs. Er, and we are not in terms of any comparative statistics that are providing costs on management and support in any way a high spender vis a vis other local authorities,. The only other element in there, Chair, is we, we've shown the specific grant coming in, er, in the figure that it's been announced. [speaker002:] Two people have indicated that. Mrs to establish. [speaker006:] Erm, yes, I'd like to, erm, ask a question and suggest that the change in the first paragraph, Service Strategy and Regulations. Erm, I feel that heading is including two different, what I believe is two different headings. For instance cost of meetings to the Committee, direct of preparation of the budget at strategic level, and jump to [reading] strategic information and research planning and liaison with other bodies for planning [] should be one heading. But there're quite definitely staff implications much more obvious and much more erm, identifiable in registration and inspections units, and the complaints procedure, and I feel that should be two, two sub- headings if you like, two, two elements. [speaker004:] Certainly when you get into the detailed budget, then these are clearly separated. This is a summary of the detailed budget. The reason it's in this format, is this is now the national standard form of accounts for social services, and the thinking behind it is, whether you were an authority that provided all of its services directly at one extreme, or at the other extreme, you were in a party that provided no direct services, and bought them all in from other providers, you would still need to meet, to meet those costs. The costs of running your committee, your requirement to have legislation inspections and arm's length service, and providing independently, er, to produce budgets erm, to monitor on a variety of other matters. So what is incorporated in there, is the minimum that you could ever survive on in terms of running a totally enabling authority. My own view is that it could, it be a great deal more than that, but this is within the, the erm, nationally prescribed requirements in terms of getting some consistency into local authority accounts. [speaker001:] Erm, going on going on [speaker002:] Well I want to move on cos you know it's [speaker006:] Yes, I'll be very quick. The preventative, the word preventative comes in so frequently, and particularly in the children's services, I agree with the second one, it but I would like to have a more detailed report er, on that second element which is on page seven, the last item before you get to elderly people. But erm, I would like to know a little bit more about both those preventative things, and in the light of what we've said previously. [speaker004:] Chairman, we can give Mrs a breakdown of the budget on those two. [speaker002:] Mr [speaker008:] I just want to ask Mr Chairman, and I don't want to start er, er, a political debate or anything, erm, the specialist placements erm, three forty six thousand, how many is that catering for, I presume that's the figure that we've all been talking about, in these three issues? [speaker004:] The whole [speaker008:] But it seems to be a lot less than it might have been last year, I mean I, do we know how many that's, we're talking about? [speaker004:] We've budgeted this year, er, for a maximum of six, but as Committee were informed at the last meeting, that number has exceeded during the year, erm, and that did create some financial difficulties, but that is the budget for specifically for six out-county placements, which not only do grown people in specialist er, accommodation such as secure accommodation, but also younger children with disabilities. [speaker008:] I understand. But if it, obviously that bill increases if more add to it. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker008:] And, and there's residential care that the er, on page nine, the specialist residential places, can you just give me a sort of, what that is for? That is [speaker001:] People with physical and sensory disabilities, Cheshire Homes, [speaker004:] Right, erm, yes, it's for adults I think, and it's such things as Leonard Cheshire Homes, er, and I can't thing of any other, [speaker001:] Star and Garter [speaker004:] Star and Garter I'm being told from the right here, those sort of very special places we don't provide them, we buy in from, from outside. [speaker008:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Okay. If we go over the questions then on, on that. If we can move on then to potential net variations. An interesting title [speaker004:] Chairman, the salmon sheets, if you're happy with the base that we start from. I would say on page twelve, it's perhaps interesting to look just at the summary there, where you'll see that your gross expenditure for next year, is now some fifty four million pounds. Erm, so, so the service is growing rapidly in financial terms, and will continue to grow in the coming two years, if only because it's new. The salmon sheets Chair, we have shown our estimates of what ideally we would like for the continuing introduction of the Children Act and its requirements, the Criminal Justice Act, and the Warner Reports, but we do recognize, and I think this Committee recognizes, the difficult financial position the County Council finds itself in, and therefore the intention is to meet those unavoidable requirements from within the base budget, and there are no bids in these papers for funding towards those. Erm, I think Chair, it, there is a need obviously for all committees to be realistic, and erm, that certainly is our intention within those, but I would say again, it leads me to believe that you should keep a reasonable er, committee contingency in case certain difficulties present themselves in terms of those additional er, pressures and requirements. Items four to twelve Chairman, are some further detail on the provision for demographic growth, which is shown on items four to seven, erm, and that is spread between the major client groups. The elderly population is based on the estimated increase in population of the over seventy five year olds, and indeed that is the factor that is now used in S S A in terms of looking er, the need to spend on elderly people. Er, it used to be those over eighty, but it's been reduced to those over seventy five. Erm, the growth in demand for people with a known disability and again is explained briefly there, and essentially means that you've got more clients coming in than you've got leaving because of the greater life expectancy because more are surviving at birth, and one would have to say that they are presenting more difficult problems in a health demand. Erm, mental health referrals is partly demographic, partly social change, in that there is an expectation of dealing differently with people who have mental health problems, and there is also a very clear expectation of dealing differently with offenders who are leaving the, the prison system who have mental health problems, and there are pressures arising from both those areas, as well as the constant requirement for an enhanced provision on alcohol, substance abuse er, and, and similar factors. The item seven, Chair, increase in child population. It is true to say there isn't the same direct relation between child numbers and spending on children's services that you get in education. Erm, it's again recognized in the S S As that it is more social factors that impact on the need to spend on children's services, and therefore things like single parent families, the level of family income and these tend to have a greater impact, but it would be foolish to assume that with a higher child population you are not going to get more demands on children's services, and therefore we have provided a fifty thousand pounds' provision within that to take care of problems. So there's a proposal there of six hundred and fifty five thousand pounds in total to meet growth in client numbers broadly speaking. Other additions, we did earlier Chair, and that is we have received a mental illness specific grant, erm, on a number of schemes but they have been time limited, and they are due to cease, some of them are due to cease in the coming year. They have been used to develop services jointly with health, and indeed a substantial part of the ones that we're losing are underpinning the local health team in South Telford at the moment. And your choice if you don't find money to, I think not one of ceasing the service, but finding offsetting savings elsewhere, and I mean it's a matter of there is a required service, it is there, there is an agreement with the health authority that neither party would, will withdraw funding without detailed con consultation and determination of how needs would be met. So hence the inclusion of that one. A similar picture on European Social Fund which is falling out, erm, mainly relating to schemes for people with learning disability, and we have been very successful on that front in attracting European funding for learning disability, particularly those schemes which have an element of, of training for, for employment associated with them. I've already briefly referred to item ten, and that is we've had to increase the numbers in registration inspection during the current year, and that demand will continue, there is no provision in the base for the ongoing costs for staff who're appointed. And therefore there's a hundred and twenty thousand in for that. The five hundred thousand shortfall in community Chair, I think we've covered in some detail on the earlier paper, so there are other additions there of some nine hundred thousand. We've also included in there, on item twelve, a net bill item, but does need to be recognized as an addition to your total spending, and that is, you've been involved for many years with the health authority in arranging for the discharge of people from long-stay hospitals, and their absorption into the community, and each of these are a provider of many services, and daycare services to those particular individuals. In closing the hospitals the health authority has been purchasing care for those people that let you care for them in a variety of settings and support. They have asked that we take that on, there is a report later in the agenda with detail on that, but as far as these papers are concerned that's simply us taking over responsibility for the best part of two million pounds' worth of spending which the health authority will refund to us by way of a section twenty eight grant. So that's a straight inheritance, does increase your gross expenditure of the Committee, and indeed does involve you, quite sensibly involve you in the total care package for those particular individuals who're increasingly seen as your clients rather than health authority clients. Er, moving on Chair, to reductions, unless members wish to make any comments on, on the additions as a block at this stage? [speaker002:] Comments? No, carry on. Sorry? [speaker004:] Joe, I wonder, would it help members if, we, we as it were, almost moved the reductions, from our point of view, we say nothing further at this point, and the officers' point of view, and leave members who might like to pick up on them, and, and talk about individual ones as they go through. I would like to say something at some point about the point I made earlier about going, increasingly as you go down this list, you depart in directions which are, er, contrary to your policies, but [speaker002:] Right, erm, if we can let members get in. I, I, maybe before we start that, on the point of reductions, and I'll ask both er, George and, and er, Jean and Mike to, to speak for the different political groups, as part of the P A G, erm, when we did go through this process, I, I mean it was very difficult for us as a P A G. We did meet three times, and, and, and the, the steps erm, under reductions get er, er, gradually worse for want of a better phrase, in relation to how we're able to deliver the service. I think that was recognized by all members of the P A G. I think what is happening now that these papers have been published, er, is that we, we will be receiving er, erm, information, consultation from user groups about user groups and the pos possible implication that these reductions will have upon their services, er, but George is there anything you want to add? [George:] No, I, I, I think what you've said is, is what was agreed at the P A G, and erm, I don't think there's any point in adding to it. [speaker002:] Jean? [speaker001:] Well, er, we're in an impossible situation aren't we? I think everyone's accepted that fact, er, at the end of the day, someone has got to make some very, very bad decisions. Erm, we can't just ignore the responsibilities that we've been given. We'll debate and these instructions, but there's always this shortfall, and it's been going on for far too long, and we still have an increasing number of responsibilities, and I just find it extremely distressing to have to sit here time and time again, to go through doing things that we really know we shouldn't be. Instead of cutting, most should be increasing them. We are in that situation and all we can do is try and do the best we can to survive and keep some sort of service going to help people who desperately need it. [speaker002:] Mike? Yes, well, I think the P A Gs have looked very carefully at all of these things, and while not being happy with er, a number of them, there really isn't er, much alternative er, ways to go. The rules and regulations are there, we have the money and we're actually told where we can spend it. If we don't we, we're, we're, [clears throat] we have no other way, and er, I think they're very carefully doing that in P A G meetings. You'll accept, sorry to interrupt, Mrs? [speaker006:] Erm, yes, I'd like that number fifteen on the reductions erm, I would like to know more detail of quite what that is, is all about, because erm, it's fairly hefty in terms of voluntary organizations, so it's a hefty erm, reduction. It may seem small in, in comparison to others, but from voluntary organizations' point of view, it's quite an horrendous problem. [speaker004:] Chairman, can we, you know, you recall we discussed at some length at the P A G. Within our provision for grants for voluntary organizations, we hold an unallocated figure, because we don't automatically erm, add inflation to grants to voluntary bodies, and in fact we wait for them to come forward and justify the increases of grants we're giving. A number of the grants, virtually all of the grants are to voluntary bodies who are providing services which are of considerable benefit to this Committee, and where we would be in some difficulty if they didn't give those of voluntary support to it. But what we're proposing here essentially, is to say we've got a seventy thousand pound contingency not specifically allocated, we will reduce that down to thirty thousand, but within that thirty thousand we will have to deal with requests we get to increase grants to people who're already in receipt of grant support, and also we've also found it extremely helpful to have a small reserve so that when a body comes along and says I would do this for you, but I do need a small grant in order to do it, and you're effectively buying a hundred thousand pounds worth of service for ten thousand pounds, that you have actually got a ten thousand pounds to put it in, rather than funding everyone, so that's basically the policy behind it Chair. [speaker006:] So far as you see it [speaker004:] But none of these are any proposals to reduce existing cash grants to voluntary bodies. [speaker006:] No, but I mean, you've had several, presumably you've had what did you say, seventy five thousand last, [speaker004:] Seventy [speaker006:] seventy thousand last year, now you're saying that even within any, I know it's moderate inflation, but none the less it's inflation, er, you are only making available, did you get through the seventy, I mean, were they applied for? And did you find that that made a difference to your overall service? And when, did you use up your seventy thousand? Or was there a balance? [speaker004:] There has been a balance Chair, and, and hence the fact that we've knocked it off as an efficiency saving rather than as a reduction in service. Erm, our belief is that we can manage erm, in line with our, our practice, and give up that forty thousand pounds, but it is, it's reducing your flexibility as, as a number of these changes effectively do. But no, our belief is that we can manage. Increasingly with voluntary bodies, and I know that this was discussed at length in the P A G, but will be of interest to members, increasingly with voluntary bodies, we are moving towards er, jointly providing services with them, in a partnership arrangement where we are effectively purchasing and commissioning services from them, and that is the way we would wish the policy to go. That rather than making a block grant for somebody because we know they do a good job, that we do more directly relate that to services they're providing to us and output. Needless to say voluntary bodies are very nervous about that, because they have difficulty contracting to provide a service when they are totally dependent on unpaid volunteers, and therefore there is reluctance on their part to, to enter into contracts that bind them to provide something where they are uncertain about their ability to do it. So we do have to manage this with some care. But undoubtedly, the way we are moving with the major providers is one where increasingly they will be part of the mixed economy in the independent sector which is voluntaries, erm, quasi er, commercial bodies, and fortified with commercial bodies, trusts and others. And, and therefore, our relationship with them will be increasingly of a more contractual nature. [speaker002:] Councillor [speaker008:] Yes, can you on twenty four, what are we talking about here? Do we know where these, these are the proposals, I mean is it one, two? Or is that just the overview? [speaker002:] Sorry, what g page twenty four? [speaker001:] No, no, number twenty four [Mike:] No, on bid four, Mr, 's focusing in on the closure of er, [speaker008:] Ellands [Mike:] elderly persons homes, I think, and we're looking at two sets in that, er, there's the proposal at twenty two, for a closure of one residential home for the elderly, in the east of the county. I must stress that we are looking primarily, or we propose to look primarily, er, at the east of the county. Er, and then the further closure depending where the line is drawn, the further potential closure of an additional home, which is the one that er, Mr made reference to. Erm, now we, we can explain to you in more detail, but the finan I think Mr 's already said to you that the financial savings er, from such moves are not as productive as they were, so in sense we're driven by strategy here, we're driven by the fact that there is a private and there is an independent sector that is there, there is alternative methods of supply. We believe as you know, that there is an over-supply of residential accommodation, not evenly distributed, I have to say that, that it varies, for example in Shrewsbury there's a very sizable er, independent sector, but that will vary, er, in other parts of the county. But we're primarily moving er, on that sort of basis. Now, can I just add one other comment to it? We believe that we would, we would find considerable difficulty too, in closing one plus in a single financial year, er, for all sorts of reasons which we can explain to you. So we would essentially be talking about a phased process the more we consider. [speaker008:] Are the homes that are under threat though at the moment? Are they concerned about this? Do they know? Or, or [Mike:] No, no as the Director has indicated, we are looking to the east of the county. No homes have been identified as such yet, the officers are looking at the homes in the east of the county. [speaker008:] Right, can you tell how you're intending to er, administer the hundred and fifty thousand pounds home care services? How's that going to be er, implemented? Are you going to, when you do your care packages say we can only award so much, we'll have to reduce it, arbitrarily? [speaker001:] Yes, yes, yes [Mike:] Yes, I, I must say I'm particularly concerned about home care services. You'll have a later report er, from the social care enterprise agency, which we've set up to stimulate independent domiciliary care. Now it is doing that, but it's not doing it, doing it, sorry, at a rate which allows us er, a sort of concomitant withdrawal er, on our side. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Total [Mike:] What it means is that we reduce our service, and we take, we can, we can, we can expect the independent sector to fill that gap for us. [speaker001:] It's a military term [Mike:] To fill that gap for us immediately. And I have to say to you again that the home care service is the one that is most under pressure. I've said to you before, it's the one I receive most letters about, er, I know that it's drawn extremely finely at this present minute. So it, as I said to you in my opening remarks, here's a clear example of us having to move in a direction that we wouldn't be recommending to you in terms of policy, but we're driven by the financial considerations. Although I'm not totally certain it will save us in the longer term. [speaker002:] Er, Shirley [speaker004:] Could I ask a question please Mr Chairman? Item twenty as well as twenty six, you are suggesting that meals go up in day centres by fifteen percent, and then on twenty six, we introduce a two pound a week for daycare, for people with learning disabilities. But do these people at the moment receive a meal, in the course of their attendance at whichever day centre they attend? If so, could was that price, sorry the cost of two pound, include their meal? [speaker001:] No [speaker004:] So you're really clobbering them both ways, aren't you? You're putting the meal up fifteen percent, and you're assuming that you're going to charge them two pounds for the attendance to that centre. So it isn't really just two pounds that they're going to have find is it? [speaker001:] No [speaker004:] Well as I indicated these forms are as unpalatable as they are I understand are, are out, are out now, in, in relation to consultation and user groups and their re or representative organizations, have been asked to comment in relation to the whole process before we go, we get to Panel and P and R er, so that we get, and then full Council, so we will get some indication, and twenty six particularly, so that, maybe those members in the last er, er, Council do realize they might have got, we might have got our fingers burnt in relation to this particular issue. But it, it, it is an issue that, that, that does seem to base itself on an as and where basis. [Mike:] We're spending five million, if you look, er, on services for people with learning disabilities. I don't believe you can ignore five million, when you're looking for reasons. [speaker004:] Oh, no, oh, no, I'm not suggesting you do, but it just seems unkind of erm, clobbering them sort of both ways. [speaker002:] Bill did you want to come in? [Mike:] Yes Chair, and I could just comment on the, on the consultation process particularly in relation to potential home closures and to the charges affecting people with learning disability. We, when the papers for this Committee were made public, we did alert people to them, the potential erm, effects of these proposals. We have not as yet got out any form of formal consultation process, erm, but obviously erm, if erm, if that's what members er, of this Committee wish, erm, then we would do so, and we would be advised as to whether that should be in advance of P and R, or whether members would wish to wait for the, the results of P and R Committee before formally embarking on, on consultation there. To be advised by you, Chair. [speaker002:] I think we wouldn't want consultation before, it might influence the decision of P and R, or there again [LAUGHTER] depends if we agree the, the arguments for consultation []. I mean personally, I'm of the view that it's better to erm, agree a set of, of proposals for consultation, see what the outcome is of those consultations, er, to see whether or not we stick to what we're suggesting, to be frank. But that's my personal view. [Mike:] In that case Chair, I [speaker002:] I mean, well, I glean, sort of from the members of the Committee [Mike:] Perhaps I could just advise members, Chairman, that erm, that the timescale for that would be fairly tight, erm, and my recollection is that when we er, we went out to consultation previously in the sphere of learning disability on an issue that I well you should know, erm, I think there were some thirteen plus consultation meetings required in, in order to, erm, to get a fair spread of, of, of opinion. So between now and Policy and Resources, it's a very tight timetable. [speaker001:] The letter I saw which alerted er, users and their carers about these items on the agenda, seem to be an indication for them to, to express their opinions back through the Social Services Department, now if that's consultation, then the process has started. It may not have been called formal consultation process. [Mike:] That's right, Chairman, we did, we wanted to inform people of what was erm, and they would au obviously have a right to comment, but we didn't regard that a, a formal consultation basis. [speaker001:] I think Chairman, in a sense, some of the items are sufficiently explicit for people to say well I know what's being proposed, I can comment on it. But when you come to something that says one or more closures of elderly persons' homes in the east of the county, I don't think it's quite fair for people saying we have a right to be told on that, but that it's insufficiently explicit for them to, to respond to consultation, and to bring their particularly cases forward. [speaker002:] Bill [Mike:] I presume Chair, we don't have a statutory obligation to consult on a matter such as item twenty six? Could we not call it sort of discussions and to try and put our point of view, our, our difficulties that we're in, rather than erm, er, er, the narrower thing? [speaker001:] But erm, I, I'm concerned about number twenty three. Er, it's difficult enough with foster parents as it is, without erm, reducing further the er, the allowances. And erm, on the er, item twenty five, might there be an opportunity, with the agreement that we're going to deal with in item D aren't we, er, with the social serv with the er, health authority, are under suspicion that a lot of the er, personal care we offer through that system ought really to be offered by district nurses, erm, and I wonder whether that's erm, can we, perhaps we cannot establish that. Somebody's shaking their head. [Mike:] C we've, I mean we've, we are having discussions, er, with the health authority about the way in which they propose to deal with their good fortune this year. Er, and I have to say that we're obviously concerned, as they are, that there's money put in to their side of the community care infrastructure. So I think we would want to be pressing that sort of point er, on them. But over and above that, you can't be expecting nurses to, presuming you'd get more, to take over home care duties. You're talking about social care here. [speaker002:] Peter [Malcolm:] Just wanted to point out, Phil, last year we, we had savings on erm, the teen care phase of a hundred and seventy thousand and this, on er, reference number seventeen it shows fifty thousand, er, what do you include the whole of that to casualties together? [speaker004:] Mike can probably come in teen care, but essentially what we have done in the current year, is sell places on teen care where we have needed the income in order to balance our books,. The children's plan when you come to it, very clearly shows a very sensible wish to move from expensive specialist placements, and expensive residential community home placements to more fostering, more teen care, more work with families in the community. This is only being put forward, not because it's a spare capacity, but because it's a choice between selling something and getting income, or cutting a service somewhere else. And the choice is actually for us to forego the use of those, a much needed use in some instances, in order to get a net income as an alternative to cutting services elsewhere. [speaker002:] Did you want some, some formal in relation to the consultation? [Mike:] Well, at the end of the advice, whatever conclusion members reach, I'm very, I think certainly on those areas erm, that they wish formal consultation or discussion erm, to take place, and the timescale we have to work to. [speaker002:] Any further views on that, and the reductions? [speaker001:] Well I think the consultation should take place, I suppose as soon as possible, because I think it's going to create problems, er, to get the timescale through committee. I think, think it's best maybe we're into these sort of formal words of consultation and discussion, maybe if we invite comment on, on the service changes really, or the reductions or cuts or whatever you want to describe them as, er, in relation to how they affect user groups. Where we have the, the erm, responsibility for a formal consultation, er, then we need to set about that process as soon as possible to try and meet our deadline, Mr Chairman. Be advised by Mr. [speaker006:] The Chair is obviously referring to the fact recently in the courts, there was consideration of the closure of old persons' homes, and you know that you are under a legal requirement to consult in respect of those otherwise any decision, to close without consultation can held to be invalid, and that has impinged on some authorities who were going down that route, so there is a duty there. There is a specific statutory provision scattered about, children's services particularly, where children have to be consulted. Erm, so on that, on major services, it is incumbent upon you to consult, erm, and detailed advice is given by me to the Director in relation to each of the, of the er, proposals as to when and how consultation should take place. But, in some of the major ones, the children and the elderly, there are quite clearly on the statutes laid down, and case law, laid down saying you must go through a process of consultation. Which means, that at the end of the day, before reaching your final decision, you must hear what people are saying, and so you can't take a decision as it were, a final decision about a closure, and then go out to consultation. It's fairly obvious, but it sometimes needs emphasising, and the timing of your committees obviously this means that there can be a delay, in the realization of any er, savings that might arise. [speaker002:] Do we agree then that we proceed down that, that, that line, about those, those two elements? [speaker001:] Yes, yes Well Chairman, I'm assuming that er, the P A G, assuming you're accepting, will want to discuss with officers the issue id of identification of er, homes for the elderly? [speaker002:] Is that agreed? [speaker001:] You want to be very careful er, Mr Chairman, how we put out erm, information, I mean, let's face it, you know, you start sort of raising a lot of hairs if you're not careful and if, if, even if it's totally irrelevant people will latch on to a particular com comment and make it their own. That's right, I'm sure you are, yes, that's right, that's right [speaker002:] Well we're already under pressure to give names, and we are reluctant to give pressure, cos n reluctant to give names because we haven't got them, at this stage, but we need, but at some stage we need to iden as we, as part of the process, this need, there's a need at least to identify one home within the east of the county. Er, maybe more than one home, particularly as part of the consultation process, I don't know. But it's whether, whether the officers do that and start the consultation or whether it's done by P A G, I'm getting a shaking of the head here, I think it needs a political decision as opposed to anything else. [speaker001:] Can I just ask Mr Chairman? Are you saying that you will only close these homes if there are very few residents, in other words a shortfall? No May I say something Chair? [speaker002:] We've got other pressures upon us [speaker001:] Well there's such a small saving in homes, that's why I'm, you know, I'm always very loathe to see them go. [speaker002:] But we've got other strategic pressures upon us, the issue of care in the community which is to provide respite and domiciliary care. And as you've seen with previous closures of our homes, the last three, is that we've been able to utilize some of those resources to provide that shift in policy which has been very successful, and has, er, a process that we've got has allayed people's fears who've been used for those residential home agreements. Peter. [Malcolm:] What er, [clears throat] is this not out of true, by my visits to various homes, and I've been very impressed with the, the er, general conditions, the care, er, of the residents and everything else. But regrettably, erm, it's, this is another example of the disadvantaged and those who can least afford it, to er, look after themselves who're having to suffer. Er, we, we, we, we don't want to, we have a go it's a definite government policy that we will, we will, we are forced into this corner, and as I say, it's the disadvantaged who suffer every time. And I would like to think that everybody in, on this committee erm, very much regrets having to do it, but we have no alternative whatsoever. Until there's a change of government policy, then we can do nothing about it. [speaker001:] Chairman, I'll, I'm not wishing to make a political, a particular political point, but I totally disagree with that, So do I I think it's very good policy, there's many people policy, who are in our homes, who would give anything to have been able to have stayed in their own homes, or maybe stayed with relatives, but erm, they need the help and care in their homes. I know that's difficult to provide erm, and the money's got to be found for that, but it, it's a mixed blessing putting elderly people into, a lot are put into our homes, which I agree are very good the majority of them, they're very nice, but the people who're put into them, they give up their own homes, and then they get a bit better six months later, and they say, ooh, I just want to go back to my home now. Erm, you must know that as well as I do, so there's, it's six of one and half dozen of another. It isn't anything to do with government at all. [speaker002:] Order, order [speaker001:] Could, could I say, I must reply to that. I'm not against the principle as I said when I came, when I was on the Council previously, when this was first hanging about, that there's little doubt about it as, it's a good policy, but will we get the money to carry it out. We're due in ninety five a reduction in home care services with, everything is being reduced, and everything is being squeezed, we're looking at the, the mentally er, handicapped people er, and their report, we're being pressurized to look after them as well. But the money isn't there to do the proper job, it's a, if the money was there to do the proper job, I'd say great let's go ahead and do it, but in policy or principle it's a wonder there's a lot good things in it, but there isn't the money to do it. That wasn't what you said, that wasn't what you said, and probably the first person to put your granny in a home. I don't think that's going to help [speaker002:] Mike on this [speaker001:] Well whether we like it or not [speaker002:] Order please, can I have one meeting please, one meeting [speaker001:] Whether we like it or not, we, we've got elderly people to look after, a lot of them, and whether we like it or not, there has been a change in attitude of the government. There's no doubt about that. We er, er, had all these homes, they sprung up, and what they've decided is, that isn't the way to go forward from here on in, what we're going to do, er, we're gonna have what's called care in the community. We get money for doing that, but we can't spend it in our homes we have to use it in the private sector, so, at the end of the day, er, whether we like it or not, we didn't like these decisions but that's the way we've got to go. [speaker002:] Okay, I think the suggestion is, is that, that we identify er, er, homes within the east of the county and that is done by the P A G, is there any dissent from that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Now, I, I, I don't, I don't look for trouble, you know me [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Is there any dissent from that? [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] Okay. Right can we move to capital programme. [speaker001:] Now show Europe please [speaker004:] Chairman, just before we leave things can I just remind members now that, that, the target set for this Committee was a net increase, and, have that in mind as we go through, and that increase is some six hundred and forty thousand pounds, which we could show within those papers as having arrived at it, in ninety four, five. Because I think, approves the use of a hundred and eighty thousand pounds of our carry forwards, contingency figure, which isn't receipted in five, six, and six, seven, that the variation in five, six, before the home closure savings come fully on-stream, is in fact an increase of seven hundred and fifty four thousand, but dropping in ninety six, seven some five hundred and fifty eight thousand. I don't know whether this will be acceptable to Policy and Resources Committee or the Council at the end of the day, but essentially what is showing there is something that, taken over the three years meets er, a figure equivalent to the annual but it doesn't do it uniformly over the three years. And that's something I think members need to bear in mind. The only way of addressing that differently, if indeed the guideline is strictly applied, and you're required to identify no more than a net increase of six hundred and forty thousand in ninety five, six, the second year of this programme, then you would have to put in additional line of further savings as yet to be identified. I'm not proposing that to you at the moment Chairman, I'm just pointing it out to members so that there's no confusion on it. And then, on the bottom of page sixteen and through on to seventeen is addressing the point that, also within the guideline, we have been asked, we've been asked as a Committee, to look at the implications of finding up to a further two hundred and fifty thousand pounds' worth of reductions. I would have to say Chair, at this stage, that item twenty eight that we put in there, in terms of registration inspection now needs to be withdrawn. There is draft er, legislation, a draft circular has just come out, which makes quite clear beyond any doubt that we are required to treat the inspection of our facilities exactly the same way as the independent sector. Er, we had been at legislation inspection of becoming an, a costly service in terms of gross expenditure, and therefore we need to look for savings from those areas where we actually spend money, erm, and the belief was, the policy thought was that as our own homes were subject to our own direct management, to inspection by members, to both internal and external audits, erm, they were therefore better inspected than the independent sector, certainly more widely inspected, and therefore the least risk, in terms of any reduction on registration inspection would apply in that area. Unfortunately it would appear, or perhaps fortunately, depending on, on one's views, erm, the policy has always been quite clear, that we should treat them in exactly the same way as we treat the independent sector, and that there would be an arm's length independent inspection, that has now been made explicitly clear that that is the requirement, and therefore you would have to withdraw that and say that if there is a requirement to find a further two hundred and fifty thousand pounds' worth of savings, we will have to go and identify another area rather than that. But if I could just make one small correction, Chairman, at the, an error on my part. On item thirty on page seventeen, it refers to increased charges above those proposed in item twenty two, that should of course read item twenty six. [speaker001:] Twenty six. [speaker002:] Mrs? [speaker006:] Erm, just very quickly Mr Chairman. Erm, this inspection of homes, erm, etcetera by members. I just wonder erm, if this couldn't be helped if you like, by increasing them rather than decreasing them, taking over perhaps some of the, not absolutely statutory, but some of the extra use of staff, and I don't know if it's possible, but at the moment I worry because some of the homes are only being inspected and visited by members anyway. So I wonder whether I can cut that out completely, or, or [speaker004:] The answer is no, you couldn't, er, in terms of registering and inspecting, and in fact your role is likely to be diminished further because the draft circular talks about bringing lay assessors, and lay assessors are defined as people who do not have any form of er, directional responsibility for providing a service. Now, I haven't totally had a chance to talk to Mr er, about that, but I would assume that means you er, and so it's moving in the other direction if anything Mrs. [speaker001:] Chair, it looks as though it includes not only c councillors, but certainly former officers. [speaker004:] Officers, former officers of the Council [speaker001:] So the net is cast very wide, as to who cannot sit on the [speaker006:] Yes, well I mean, if the worst, yes, you might redu you might improve to worry about. [speaker004:] Okay, the final point on, on the salmon papers, erm, I have noted at the bottom there, that we have not yet settled bids on joint finance for ninety four, five. This is again money that the health authority provides, it is agreed within joint collaborative committee, consisting of health, er, the County Council, the District Councils, and voluntary bodies. And er, whilst we do know the total that's available, er, there's been no er, consideration in detail of the bids against that. I've noted there that, that if you were to bid for funds that had tapering attaching to them, and therefore you would be picking up increased costs in ninety five, six, and ninety six, seven, that they wouldn't exceed the figure shown at the bottom of the page. I would go further Chairman, in terms of the version we reach now, I would be very surprised if they do reach those figures, and, er, why I would expect them to be substantially less, because the policy which is being proposed at this stage is one of using joint finance monies as a one hundred percent grant, one-off grants for one or two years in support of schemes, rather than in, as a tapering item. Although there will be a small number of tapering items within there, erm, hopefully Chairman we'll have more detailed information before this report is considered by the Policy and Resources Committee in, in February. [speaker002:] Comments? [Mike:] Well Chairman, you, I think certainly the Po the P and R have asked you for your views, I mean there's no final er, agreements. I think I should say to you at this point, that if you're moving into these areas, you are moving into what I can, or, just totally contrary in fact to your policies, and directions, and er, not only that, I think we have difficulty sustaining. If I can just pick on community homes stamping reduction and we've talked about that already earlier. Er, we know that there's an O and M report coming through, we've got a pretty good idea what's in it. We know that there's a thing called the Warner Report, which is er, leaning all the way for more er, and yet we will reducing. So I have to say to you that whilst I'm putting these forward, it's absolutely clear that we would be having adverse comments and criticism er, from the S S I, and that you would be moving into areas that I can't recommend to you, but I, I put them forward as obviously illustrations. [speaker001:] Chair, I, I think we have to reflect that view to the P and R Committee. I mean we all know it, and we all know there's a lot on this list which are most unpalatable, and they're only there because we've been set the task of reaching a particular sum of money, and er, if we had the choice we'd be going in the reverse direction, and, and adding. So while we have to discharge our responsibilities and, and, and show how these targets are achievable, we also are quite right to indicate our feelings about in, in, in the manner the Director's er, expressed. [speaker004:] Chair, if I might be allowed just thirty seconds comment on the budget from the point of view of some of the central services. There is no doubt at all that where there are reductions er, particularly at the edge of our statutory responsibilities, this inevitably we know, generates more demands for support from central services, particularly legal, where we are then brought into dispute, and there are complaint machinery, and other processes brought into play. I think it's perhaps a small consideration but it does impact on increased demand for those central services. [speaker008:] Mr Chairman, er, it's an important point, but I'm so fed up with hearing people using this as a political issue, erm, and, and, and I'm a high critic of the government er, for many other reasons, but I would like to know where these people think the money would come from. Perhaps they would tell us, if they were allowed to spend more, where do they think the funds come from, and who do they think's going to pay? [speaker001:] Well, what do [speaker008:] Can you tell us what you think it would, what you think would happen? Let's have it in black and white, are you saying that the Council Tax should go up by many, many pounds? Hundreds of pounds? it's such an important issue, we ought to have it out in the open, and let's tell the taxpayers what these people say [speaker002:] I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry Councillor, but you obviously haven't been listening to debate this morning, the issue is about the settlement that we have received. It relates to lots of policy areas and the way in which the, the whole settlement is skewed against Shropshire, we hear it on every budget debate [speaker001:] It's not fair, that's right So you're just arguing about Shropshire's allocation, it's got nothing to do with government policy affairs, about holding Cou local government spending er, within limits, you're not saying that. [speaker008:] Oh, yes, well that's part of the issue as well and it has to be part of the strategy [speaker001:] Alright, where's the money? [speaker008:] Where does the money come from? It doesn't jus I'd like to know, I'd like you to tell the rate payers of Shropshire what you expect them to do. Are you going to put Council Tax up two hundred pounds, because to, to, to meet all the demands of Council, well that's the sort of thing you're asking me to do. And, and you know how to blame, [speaker001:] Well I mean, another point is [speaker008:] you've only got to see any tax that goes up and everyone's up in arms about it. [speaker001:] if we can't find it where do we go? [speaker008:] Well, well, well when this lot, [speaker001:] when this lot goes out to consultation you come back and te to me that other people aren't putting their arms up in air, about the reduction in services, or what are preceiv or what are perceived, no hang on, You tell them I'm a very patient Chair, or what are perceived as cuts, not reductions in services, total decimation of services, if we actually go down these particular lines, That's because of overspending in previous years. Well that is bunkum, bunkum That's rubbish, that's rubbish John, absolute rubbish. [speaker002:] Peter? [Malcolm:] No, no, no, I say [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Good, George next. [Tom:] I was only going to say, Chair, that before my time in local government, that I've mine as an observer each side, er, there was no problem for local authorities to raise a rate, er, there was no restrictions on this, and if they thought they could get away with it politically, they did, and they provided the services, that, that they believed people wanted. There was no problem all that long time ago, I don't know why we haven't [speaker008:] Well that's the great point of being honest, that's a great point, and let's tell the rate payers what we expect them to do [speaker001:] Could we move on Mr Chairman please? [speaker002:] Yes, we need to agree this, unpalatable as it is, to go forwards to P and R, to expose what the five percent reduction is, and to indicate as well to P and R other points that we, we want to say about these specific services. [speaker001:] I think it's been said. I think you've said Chairman, that you would find this final tranche very difficult to achieve. [speaker002:] Maybe this, the minutes need to reflect that. [LAUGHTER] If we can play them over there. Is that agreed then? [speaker004:] So the capital programme is er, erm, as I said earlier, the capital programme is not within the guidelines set by Policy and Resources Committee. Erm, the proposals there do, in fact, exceed the capital spend on new starts, and it will therefore need pruning erm, and the proposals that we suggested earlier was that, subject to any comments members may have on individual schemes that are here, and their views on them, we would propose looking at the programme in detail, and bringing it within the guideline figures that have been set, erm, and doing that with the advice of P A G before it goes on to Policy Panel and, and Policy and Resources Committee. [speaker002:] Er, I think there are certain papers well further down er, the agenda that, that might be taken to P A G as well, in relation to capital programmes, so if, if we can possibly speak about the generality of the capital programme because I think the idea is that it goes to P A G for refinements. Mrs. [speaker006:] Erm, very briefly, I think that erm, from my knowledge, as opposed to bureaucracy, other people in charge would know more about it, er, item two, item three, erm, I think could be certainly reduced in expenditure. This seems erm, over the top, I erm, I don't honestly think the provision of garages is absolutely essential in the light of the things that we've been cutting up which are essential, erm, and in number two. And I don't really see that erm, number three is of vital importance either. Er, going to number twenty, and twenty two, erm, I would like to know quite what this, these large figures are about, and quite er, what we intend. There's no detail on it, it's just very broad sweep, various properties, continuing programme of improving. Number twenty two, capital effects to allow for the acquisition of various properties. What do we want them for? How essential are they? You know, I mean, these sorts of rather broad brush suggestions, er, a total of, I'm not very good at arithmetic, something of two hundred and forty thousand pounds, those two, plus I think, an actual reduction in certainly two and three if not erm,remo removal. I think you've got quite a significant amount of money which you could offset what we've been saying just grieves me. [speaker002:] Yes, as I said previously, I didn't particularly want to go into the detail, because obviously as a member of P A G, Mrs, you'll get an opportunity to see that particular detail. The other point is as well, if you don't know the, what the outcome of your capital programme's going to be, you don't do a lot of work in working up specific projects, otherwise it's going to be abortive work. You put in general points, but specifically pick your point up on item three to do with Homeward Church Stretton, the reports that I read, er, from the visitors like yourself, to go to that children's home, identify this as an issue every time. So you, so I, I, I don't agree with you on that point but anyway the point of refining, the point of refining the capital programme is there is an im implication of, of, of debt repayment er, which is part of revenue, which could have an implication er, upon how we reach our reductions. That's the main reason for the P A G to refine the, the capital programme, to reflect that before it goes to the Policy Panel, and then to P and R and Council. To Peter. [Malcolm:] Could, could I just say that Homeward, I mean there the, the parking is obviously a problem, that that is something that could go by, but I mean, I went to, the last time I went to Homeward, and walked out, and it's before we had all this rain, my shoes were under water. In the whole garden, and not just, and plus a river running through to, to the, to the north side, and it is difficult, and it is quite a problem and to, to, to say that this is not necessary, is undoubtedly ridiculous. [speaker002:] Good boating holiday! Councillor? [speaker008:] That's alright Mr Chairman, I think it's been cleared, thank you. [speaker002:] Okay, sorry Mrs. [speaker010:] I'd just like to make a point about Robert House, and Roseberry. I'd have thought and it's in support. Erm, I don't know whether it's anything in the budget for de redecoration, I think, Robert House. [speaker001:] What's the implication? [speaker010:] Yes, I could use, could have a little attention. [speaker001:] Again Chairman, it's reflected in the children's services plan up to possible future proposals for Robert Home. I shouldn't waste too much money on it, it needs replacing. [speaker002:] That's my feeling entirely. Anyway, is, is, is there agreement that there's, that this er, capital programme and associated papers after our deliberations on are referred to the P A G, is that agreed? Is that agreed? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] I'm, I'm under pressure for two decisions, Paul is here to speak to his paper and has to be in Sandwell at two o'clock, and I'm told that the canteen closes at one thirty. [speaker001:] Are those alternative, [speaker002:] Is, is it your agreement that we take Paul 's paper now, before we look, can I suggest that we take Paul 's paper next. [speaker001:] Which one? Where do I turn to, next page, page one. Paper I, [speaker002:] I, [speaker001:] I All those happy say aye. Aye. That's carried. [speaker002:] Item eight. [speaker001:] Oh, yes. [speaker008:] Chair, do you want me to speak? [speaker002:] I should start [speaker008:] Yes, right. Er, thank you Chair, for the opportunity to introduce the paper which I do briefly bearing in mind what I, I see are all the pressures on you which will go on into the afternoon. Erm, just to remind you, or to draw to your attention, erm, ladies and gentlemen, the fact that the report erm, was considered in the first instance, by your community care advisory sub-committee in September, and subsequently by the joint consultative committee in November. Er, the recommendation to those committees was that they should treat the paper as a basis for consultation, it was on that basis that they approved it, it was my impression that they support it in general terms. The principles of what was proposed. The consultation er, that the document was sent out very, very widely to District Councils, to voluntary organizations, and throughout the county, the consultation process was extended until the end of December, er, replies are now in, and I believe there's, there's around a dozen of them. The next stage I understand Chair, is that a report on the consultation process and what's come out of it will be, will be brought in er, in the first instance, to the J C C and the community care advisory committee, and, and thence with substantive recommendations to this Committee, and to the health authority etcetera, in relation to the substance of the report. Very... [speaker001:] No, I'm trying to catch the Chairman's eye. He's now talking, and I shall want to speak, carry on. [speaker008:] Very, very quickly, can I just say, that in the er,consultat in the, in the work I did in the, which led to the production of the report, and the many, many people I talked to, some of whom I, I see around the table, I found on the one hand, ample evidence throughout the county authorities, the health authority, the district councils, and the voluntary sector, of much evidence of recognition of improved collaboration between agencies in delivery of community care in Shropshire. Especially as compared with those somewhat dark days in terms of specially the relationship between the County Council and the health authority. And at the same time, and slightly in contradiction to that, I found it increasing erm, er, perception and indication of dissatisfaction with the way in which the joint er, collaborative structures were actually working, if I may say, especially at the top level in terms of the political erm... erm, so I say to you colleagues, that you are required as er, by statute to, to have in place collaborative structures, er, under a statute that goes back to the nineteen seventies, and I should also say to you that up and down the country that authorities like your own are at this stage doing what you're doing, and that is reviewing the effectiveness of the operation of those structures, and probably coming to much the same conclusions. Erm, why is that there er, that review process is going up and down the country and why is that people are dissatisfied? I would suggest to you colleagues, it's because the, your expectations and those of the, er, the other erm, stake holders involved in the other agencies about joint planning depends on what you expect the joint structures to carry. A few years ago, er, the joint planning structures, and this is before the introduction of care in the community, dealt or came to be seen politically, dealing very much with joint finance and although, important though it, that is, it's what's sometimes called funny money, it's money at the side, it didn't deal with mainstream policies, and mainstream budgets. And, following the reconstruction of the new health authorities, some distance was created between those structures and local authorities, and so in the early seventies, there was a tendency to move apart, and not to expect very much from the joint collaborative structures. The introduction, the build up to the introduction of care in the community with its formal launch in, in April erm, of last year, has in fact increased very significantly the expectations of joint collaboration because there you're actually talking about major budgets, major planning agreements, erm, erm, and so a need for a review. However, in terms of the recommendations, and I shall very, very quickly come to those, and deal with those very quickly, Chair, erm, I should just say to you that the, be, beware of structuralism. Any review of the structures is not likely to stand for any number of years, it's not likely to get absolutely right, erm, and so be flexible about your approach. In relation to the recommendations Chair, I just pick on four points, the first one is, that at the political level, the proposal in the paper, and I should say, erm, and this is a matter of judgment, but it was widely supported by people I spoke to, there was considerable uncertainty and ambiguity in people's minds about, about the present structure, in terms of the responsibilities of the J C C, vis a vis the community care advisory sub-committee. There was a feeling there had been a time when you needed both, but for the future it would help in general, and offer much better leadership if you were to create one body, and since you're statutorily obliged to have a J C C, why not make it, actually make it work, so it meets more often, and it actually actively involves erm, er, er, er, at the political level, players at the political level. There was a strong feeling in some quarters, especially the voluntary sector, but also the District Council, that questions the degree of representation of all the different interests needed to be looked at, hence the proposal that there should be

[speaker001:] And this is where the second proposal is, that, there is again confusion between having a joint pol erm, a, erm, a joint policy group at chief officer level, and J C P T, and that again those should as it were combined, but that the arrangement could be s could be erm, kept as small and tight to encourage effective action as you move into joint commissioning, and that is bringing your budget alongside that of the Health Authority, and would be the best way to get erm, the best leverage on services that you can across that divide. Below that level, colleagues, thirdly, and you may be less interested in this, erm, but the, because this is very much at the level of, of officers, at least from the statutory bodies. The proposal in the review is that you probably will need to keep your joint care teams, your JCTs, which tend of course to be professionally and officer dominated, but there are strong feelings throughout the county, and one has to remember the run up to local government, erm, the local government commission is on, strong feelings especially from the voluntary sector, but also from the district councils, that there could be renewed dynamism at the local level, in terms of local care teams. Finally, Chair, erm, progress in terms of care in the community. We've been through a lengthy process of planning in paper, and production of lengthy community care plans, very much fine words and aspirations, we now need to bring er, er, the future means, especially in the context of resource constraint, means actually bringing the money alongside the proposals. That means joint commissioning, you have an example later on in your agenda in relation to learning disability services, I think it's items nine, nine and eleven, erm, er, perhaps the most controversial part of the proposals that I've, I've put before the authorities, is that you don't expect the structures for joint care planning to carry the full weight of joint commissioning when you're talking about main budgets. They're a little bit frail for that. Erm, and my proposals have what some have described as a rather complex structure, where your joint planning arrangements are down the one side, and the commissioning, largely the responsibility of statutory authorities is on the other. Erm, my proposal is that you keep them separately. The final word I would say to you that from the brief glance I've had of the responses of the consultation appeared around a dozen. I'm biased of course, and I get the impression that most people support the proposition, perhaps, er, two major, erm, contributions erm, feedback reports at some length, appear to question them. There's particular questioning about my proposition that joint commissioning erm, should remain distinct from I think, the joint planning arrangements. Er, I think that reflects the, a certain unrealism out there in the world, and that is the notion that you are likely to entrust major decisions about mega-millions er, of money, er, to a much broader arena for discussion. Chair, that concludes the report, so I'm very happy to answer any, any comments or questions is you wish me to do so. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker003:] Well, Chairman, I think it's most useful, and I would hope that you would endorse that we have set the recommendations, and I'm not quite sure which sight over that in the consultation period. But it does, this is a the er, comment. Er, Professor did say final words of aspiration, and I shan't talk on aspirations, I was interested in it, and although I talked the empirical linguis linguisism. I must admit Chairman, I think it would be useful if the language was fractionally improved. I, I do find specifiably embryonic, with respect, extraordinary. I, I think it could have been just put into user friendly English. [LAUGHTER] It seems unlikely that I'm to construct a generation of broad based, supporters of. There's no relationship, created intimately on my. [LAUGHTER] Er, have, having that criticism gentlemen, for which I apologize, I, I, I think it is a most useful, but I do think a little bit of future, holding on might be helpful. Erm, is it, is it the intention to run separate applications to debt, are we at that stage? And if it is, I would so move, because I think extremely sluggish. [speaker002:] I mean, what I was going to say, from what I've picked up from some of the comments from some of the district, district councils' consultation it makes me wonder if they're capable of actually taking on the role of social services in joint commissioning. But anyway, a lot of the detail, a lot of the detail seems to have been around the, the, the words that have, have, have been used in the document, but I'll ask Paul to specifically respond to that. [speaker001:] Well I'll, I'll do so briefly. Erm, I think the Director has advised me, and he's had more experience at these matters not to respond to that, and [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] but, I, I, I think I'm obliged to say, to respond in two ways. One is to say mea culpa, erm, and the other one though is, [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] What is about me? What about me? I can vouch for you. [speaker001:] You're to blame. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And the other one is, now this is something I heard on erm, Radio F M yesterday, where apparently Richard Strauss was challenged about the complexity of r of a piece of work, and er, he responding by saying, the devil I cannot make it simpler. Erm, on the grounds that the substance he was dealing with was complicated, and I think, erm, colleague is right to reprove me for some of the language. But the plain fact is, and genuinely I mean this, er, er, erm, if it were as simple working across the boundaries between yourselves and the Health Authority, between yourselves and the private sector, with the voluntary sector, and the great army of unpaid helpers... if it was that simple, erm, then we would have moved a long way along that line towards implementation of a humane and caring care in the community twenty years ago, when these debates first started. And I would suggest to you, it's because it's complicated, and forgive me if I haven't made it more simple, but that's one reason incidentally, why in my document, I kept commissioning, the business of doing, and making the kind of hard choices that your committee's had to make this morning, because resources will always be limited, separate from discussing everything that people would like to do, because they don't always run together. You end up with talking shops, and that's been one of the troubles I think, with the arrangements for joint planning. But thank you for giving me the hope, coat peg to hang some further comment. [speaker002:] Okay well I think pro [speaker003:] I think you've just specifiably embryonic [speaker001:] Alright, now is that the only one? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I think if had he, had he hadn't moved, and offered a recommendation, now is there any dissent? [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] That's agreed. Okay, just a final item, I think, before we, we break, thank you Paul, break for, for lunch, and that's to go back to, I had a request from Derek to speak on Oak Farms [speaker003:] Not to speak, to listen. [speaker002:] To listen right. If we could just particularly pull that item out, erm, which is three, one, little two. [speaker003:] Mr Chairman, can I ask this for people have got a, er, another meeting at quarter past two, [speaker002:] Appendix C [speaker003:] we are going to be in awful difficulty, we've got an education P A G, and I know Gill's involved in that, we do have a problem. [speaker002:] Well, I'm, I'm, I don't have a problem. No, I can ring in work and say I'm not going in this afternoon, er, I mean, but it is, it is, er, self discipline exercised by members when we do talk about issues on the agenda. Erm, that's why we're at the stage and haven't passed three one yet. But if we can turn, because, because Derek did, did request to come along on this specific item, er, and it's the, the yellow papers, er, on Oak Farm. [Mike:] Chair, if I can, if I can speak to it from a financial point of view, this is the scheme where we have been successful in bidding for the European Rural Development Fund grants. Erm, it was a scheme which was in your capital programme to start in nineteen ninety four, ninety five, I E, next year, not in the current year's programmes. But in terms of the preparation for that, in bidding for grant aid, and it was very much tied into a successful bid for grant aid, that was forthcoming but only on the grounds that the scheme was committed by the end of December. Erm, and as a result of that, we did, er, Chair, seek erm, urgency powers to give that commitment for the scheme and we did it by er, forgoing a scheme within the current year's capital programme, and exchanging this. So we moved the scheme to next year's capital programme into this year's capital programme, erm, very much a scheme on children's services, which is also in these papers, where it was at that stage fairly clear that it would not commence during the current financial year. Erm, the reason and the urgency that applied was very much to ensure that we did attract the Rural Development Fund grant. Erm, the scheme itself is one which is very much in mind with er, various policies that you've had put in front of you, in terms of er, provision er, for this type of scheme for people with learning disabilities. It ties in with exactly the sort of development which you're doing in rural settings for learning disability and it attracts grant because of its er, its ability to show an element that is training people towards future employment. Erm, that's the reason Chair, er, on that, and I hope that members will accept the action that has been taken. Erm, as I say, it wasn't taken in any way to circumvent your discussion on the project, it was very much one to ensure that we didn't lose the offered grant. [speaker002:] I, I'm getting nods round the table, I don't like, I don't think there's any, sorry Derek yes? [speaker003:] Does the direct thing to any good? [speaker005:] I'm just, I'm just hear to say this, our directions actually for this area, is now nice it to have this keeping separately, in and fully supporting that, you know, it, it, it does and I'm very pleased with it, so [speaker002:] Is somebody prepared to move that, the recommendation that we support the action? [speaker003:] Yes [speaker002:] Okay. Shall we break for lunch? When do people want to come back? [speaker003:] I would like us, no if we could do it to quarter to two, then I'd be very pleased, item M could be put on, put on the top One thirty, one thirty [speaker002:] Well I'm, I'm in a mixture, mix of expressed views, is, is one thirty or quarter to two? [speaker003:] One thirty One forty five One thirty... [break lunch] Sorry about that, but I've got to go to work. I mean, I'd can always forward the details anyway. [speaker002:] Well, I'm in the Committee's hands? [speaker003:] Yes, we know [speaker002:] Sorry, go as it is, [speaker003:] Go as it is [speaker002:] We go back then to... [speaker003:] C [speaker002:] mar item C, and that's item one, Planned Resource Centre, [speaker003:] Joe, I'm not seeking to close down on discussion about item er, three, one and three, three but in view of the discussion we took this morning, you took this morning about the capital building programme and referring it to er, P A G, may I suggest that they both go that way, unless you have any particular comments to add to. I'm not advising you, you are happy with that. [speaker002:] Yes, okay. [speaker003:] Yes. That's on the twentieth isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes, er, [speaker003:] Yes Two thirty [speaker002:] hang on, twentieth, at two thirty, you know. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Okay is that agreed then, that those two items are adjourned? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker003:] Meeting on the twenty [speaker002:] If we can move over the page then to three, little two, appendix D. [speaker003:] Thank you Chair. I think several, several references have been made to the importance of the agreement with the health authorities, and recognizing that the agreement is a joint process. It is a condition to us receiving the special transitional grant, and as we carried out last year, with drafting the agreement, we have a very short period of time in which to put the agreement together. It has to be sent off to the Department of Health on the fourteenth of this month. So you have there before you, members, a draft agreement which itemizes the, the main components. The first one is the existing arrangements on nursing home care, really reviewing the process, and members will recognize that the arrangements that were agreed in the first agreement with Health Authority related to gaining permission from the Health Authority before our placing nursing homes. That has been re re reviewed through the year, and the process somewhat simplified, and now seems to be working well. The other point that raises from the agreement is that we have to agree, agree a purchasing plan with the Health Authority particularly relating to nursing home care, and that purchasing plan at the moment is still at the draft stages because as Mike referred to earlier, we have no information from the Department of Health on the percentage of the funding to be spent in the independent sector. The other proviso of course, is our commitment to ninety, nineteen ninety four, and nineteen ninety five, not having arrived at the end of the financial year yet, we're still in the position of having to forecast what those commitments will be. The existing commitments for funding nursing home places, that's the second item, and again that, that does require some further work. The disputes procedure, that has been in place for some time, and enables us to resolve disputes locally, if they cannot be resolved locally, then they are referred up through the management systems. In the case of practitioners, who are now included in the disputes procedure, that's, that is then referred up to the Family Health Service Authority. The major item for work this year is the Department of er, sorry the District Health Authority's responsibility to providing specialist palliative care. Now the responsibilities for terminal care do rest with both authorities, er, the original D S S er funding that was transferred, did include an element for terminal care in nursing and residential homes. Although the ex the special allowance was actually withdrawn, but nevertheless, the responsibility for generally dealing with it, was picked up by the local authority. However the specialist provision, the specialist palliative care remains the responsibility of the District Health Authority, and they have received extra funding for hospice work this year. A major piece of work is to make sure that the assessment processes do allow us to deal with er, people who are requiring specialist palliative care, not only at the hospice, but in the form of out-reach work, and one project that is proposed is some use of joint finance to help dovetail the work on assessment, er, from the Health Authority front with that provided by Social Services. So that we do have a integrated assessment process. Referrals to hospital social work teams for people leaving hospital has been referred to earlier. We do have er, performance targets, they seem to be working well, er, ninety percent figure was given, that does seem to be holding up. There haven't been any major er, examples of er, bed blocking in, in the, in the county, so that part of it seems to have worked er, smoothly. However, we do need to recognize that the staffing requirements are there, making sure that the assessments are done on time, and that people are discharged from hospital. It's worth mentioning too, that during the year, er, Dr Tim, the general practitioner, who is seconded with er, Social Services, has been doing work on hospital discharge, making sure that the arrangements are, are working, and his reports have been picked up by the respective authorities, and, er, there has er, a sort of action plan has been put together, which is, which is intended to try to improve the er, existing hospital discharge arr arrangement, making sure that people are discharged from hospital and that the er, right type of care is available for them in, in the community. Monitoring procedures. The erm, importance of monitoring procedures cannot be over-stressed because enable, to enable us to actually find out if these er, arrangements are working properly we do have to monitor the arrangements that are in place, and we have to provide details of monitor important for the members' benefit, er, explaining how the budget is er, is being spent, and also bringing in information about the number of assessments, the levels of assessments, and all the other aspects that er, that make a new system work. It is important that we continue that monitoring process, and it will not be until the end of the financial year, that we have the full picture of the workload, and the financial implications for the first year of er, care in the community and the new arrangements. The joint training programme has been extremely important, and nice to mention that we've trained, on a joint basis, over three thousand people, in the er, use of the new arrangements... development of the assessment er, procedures and continue to provide training to people where it's, where it's essential. Moving on to some of the aspects of the agreement in a bit more detail. Erm, collaborative working er, use of joint commissioning for HIVAs, alcohol misuse, drug abuse, community mental health services, services to people with learning disability, and services and disability resource centre, very important. Continuing nursing care, it's important to stress here, that the continuing nursing care, the arrangements have relied to some extent on the use of joint finance to ensure that the Health Authority has been able to meet during the year the extra workload, and er, the budget settlement that they have, er, is actually being discussed at the moment with a view to the picking up some of those costs on a continuing basis. It's important too to stress that we did originally set out to divert ten percent of those people from residential and nursing homes into care in the community packages. That has been successful Chair, during the course of the year, we're three quarters of the way through, but our monitoring information shows that we've easily reached that ten percent target, and that does fit in equally with the work we'll be describing a bit later on, the Enterprise Agency is, is working on. Continued implementation of community care, and making sure that we do carry on developing it, ensuring that people have the choice is going to be an important part of the agreement, and it's also important that the joint finance, or some, some joint finance is kept as er, work for community care so that we are able to respond to er, events that turn up that aren't necessarily expected. Home owners forum and the use of diversification, will be mentioned in the agreement. It's important that home owners are recognizing that there is an over- provision of residential care in the county, and that they are responding and diverting some of their resources, or discussing how they may well, er, divert some resources into home based er, packages of care. I think that covers most of the items in the agreement, erm, with some identification of new work that needs to be done during the year, but recognizing that during the course of the year, we have succeeded in following the main points from the agreement that was, was put forward er, I think, it was December this time last year. And er, that we have, we have been largely on target with those items that were put forward, as has been the objectives and, and some of the targeting of the agreement itself.... Yes, yes, I mean, the third point in terms of the erm, the er, the agreement itself, in addition to the information from the Department of Health, and of course the commitment for ninety four, ninety five, er, is the question of, of the budget. Until that budget is actually er, settled, it's difficult to be definitive about the actual amount of money that's available for the purchasing plan for ninety four, ninety five. Thank you Chair. [speaker002:] Comments? [speaker003:] No comments? [speaker002:] Sorry John, but there's no specific reference to discharging people from hospital with mental illness. Er, that's a, a, a, problem in many parts of the country. I've not heard of any problem in Shropshire, but I take that is covered by this? [speaker003:] It is, yes. [speaker002:] Okay. Agreed, thank you. We move then to appendix E, which is er, capital programme progress report. [Mike:] Chairman, it is there for your information, I'm not certain we've got a representative of property funding, but try and deal with any comments as they come up. [speaker003:] Just mention Chair, that there [speaker002:] They're here all this morning, but they had to go for another meeting. [speaker003:] The item at the bottom of page one on Highfield House of course, now has switched between years, so it would be a, over start in ninety four, five. [speaker002:] Yes, any comments on that paper? No, okay, thank you. We move to er, F, er, item five, bed numbers in old peop persons' homes, update. [Mike:] For your information. [speaker002:] You needn't try and stop the delivery their end. Try to tell these managers it was their end. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I just thought it... followed on the next page there Yes, got it, yes we've got it. One says seven to eight, one says seven, seven five Right, it does indeed [Mike:] I'll explain that Chair, as we go through it. [speaker002:] Okay [speaker003:] At this suite, then it's three. [speaker002:] G [Mike:] G Chairman, if I could just pick up a deliberate accuracy rather than [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Are we still taping here? [Mike:] In terms of yes we do show er, er, a figure of in the current year of seven hundred and seventy five basics which is an odd sort of figure on the, the monitoring report. You will bear in mind that we have closed three homes during the course of this year, and we always planned to do that in phased fashion, therefore, the equivalent number of beds available within the current year is the seven hundred and seventy five that's shown there. It does take account of those beds that were available in those three homes during the current year up until the time they closed. Erm, hence the difference, and erm, the average cost has therefore been worked on the basis of beds that were available, and indeed. In general Chair, I'm conscious of the time, so I won't dwell on it in any detail, this is essentially something at looking at the costs of running your homes, and making two comparisons. One, a comparison of the costs in similar authorities, and we've taken those that are in your audit family group from the Audit Commission, erm, and those are shown in appendix one, and a comparison of costs as to what we are currently paying to buy places for people for residential care of the elderly in the independent sector. Erm, that is the, I would stress, it's the maximum contribution that we agreed to make, not necessarily the charges that those homes are levying. There is a facility in that for people who choose a home that has a higher charge, to arrange a third party to make up the difference, and we have a number of those, those type of contracts. The position, just very quickly Chairman, is that our costs are very much in line with the lower end of our planning group of authorities. On the list you see in appendix one, there are six there that are showing charges lower than ours, although I'm not sure, one of the Dyfed, and I'm not sure how they differentiate between normal and high, in terms of er, occupancy, I suspect it's in line with our low dependency, high dependency definition in the private sector, and you'll see in the report that we do say that far and away the majority of people coming into your own homes are in the high dependency category. Erm, so we are at the lower end of the authority charges. The other thing that's important to bear in mind which is in the report is you're not necessarily comparing exactly like with like, when you compare your provision with what we're currently buying in the independent sector. Virtually all of the respite care that is provided, is provided in your own homes, we are getting some increase in using independent homes for respite care. But quite clearly this is a more expensive use of beds in residential establishments, when people simply come in for a matter of days or week or two weeks, rather than coming in on a permanent basis. I think there is some indication in the independent sector of the over-provision, in that they are now more ready to take people at those standard prices for respite care. Erm, but at the moment, the majority of that you provide, as indeed, for emergency admissions and assessment admissions erm, with considerable use made within your own homes on that. We also use those homes as centres for day care, and the financial effects of that are estimated and taken out of these calculations, but I think it's important for members to remember that your residential homes aren't purely and simply providing only residential care, they are also centres for day care in that particular area. Erm, the difference in terms of cost to us is in no small part due to the fact that if somebody comes into one of our homes, we have a statutory national method of assessing their contribution, and they don't ex access the full range of D S S benefits. If they choose to go into an independent sector home, they, and they have a low level of income, they do access what is called the residential care allowance, which is further income support benefit of up to forty five pound a week. So there is that, still that difference between the two forms of provision. We, when we introduced the community care element, looking at the budget earlier in the day, we did also refer to the Audit Commission report on that, and again it is quite clear from the Audit Commission report, that it remains a government expectation that we will continue to review our provision, that we will compare it as is done in this paper, with others and particularly the independent sector, and an expectation that we will rationalize where necessary, and hence the proposals over the period of time, that are in your budget package for reviewing and rationalizing only. But the main point on the comparison I think here Chair, is that your homes are not expensive, when compared with similar provision and there's still some unevenness in terms of funding between your homes and the independent sector. [speaker002:] Thank you,m may I just say to Committee, that this report is before you at the request of George. I've talked with the Director to make sure that it was taken. [speaker003:] It was important [speaker002:] And, it was important, any comments? [speaker003:] No [speaker002:] Noted, thank you. Always try to be you know, helpful [speaker003:] Helpful, [speaker002:] Yes, yes, [LAUGHTER] er, we go into item seven [], er, marked H, I think it's residential nursing home. [Mike:] Chairman, this, this is simply a, a matter of report to you at er, this point in time about events which occurred, which received publicity, where we had to step in because a private home pr went into receivership. The one thing that I would want to draw your attention to is paragraph three, er, point seven, where you'll see that the costs of running The Beeches, during the period of, of transition as it were, was five thousand eight hundred and thirty, of which a maximum of three thousand and seventy six may be recovered from the residents. Er, so there was a cost to the County Council, but I'm assuming that members would support stepping in, in these circumstances. [speaker003:] oh, yes [speaker002:] Malcolm, Malcolm, please. [speaker003:] Yes, Chair, I, I'd like to propose a formal to this collection of recommendations. Now I know that er, some of the details are in the confidential section of the, of the agenda, I shall be very careful not to breach confidentiality, erm, but the, the proposal is this, that erm, we make representations to ensure that the receiver considers the welfare of residents er, in making arrangements to wind up the affairs of private residential homes. Now, firms do go bankrupt, we know that, er, but in this case, the sort of, of the thing they're trading in, is, is far more precious than er, holidays abroad, or, or three piece suites you ordered six months ago, Time shares or whatever. And er, they can't just close the doors and put a notice in the window. Recognition has to be made of that, erm, of course, that involves costs, and it in involves inconvenience to receivers and, and maybe other creditors but it is essential that er, [clears throat] whoever organizes the receivers, and I'm not sure who it is, whoever guides them in the way they work, takes account of this, and indicates to them that they must consider the welfare of residents. They, I can tell you the, erm, official receiver comes under the Department of Trade and Industry. Right, so if I write to the Secretary of State for Trade and In or is it the President for the Board of Trade? Yes The President of the Board of Trade, I think. [speaker002:] Is four, four seconded then as far as the recommendation? [speaker003:] Yes [speaker002:] And again, is there any dissention from, that's what we do, no, okay. Dear Mike, [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I think we should er, compliment the staff on, on, on the work they did. Yes [speaker002:] Okay, if we move on then to,... joint collaborative which we've dealt with, which was I, er, item J, then item nine, adults' learning disability service. Approval of grants. [speaker003:] Chair [Mike:] Chairman, you, you have in a sense already seen this item as part of your budget this morning, er, this is the transfer of payment from an appropriate sum er, other than from the Health Authority, to er, the Local Authority. It's in keeping er, with as it were, the legalities of the situation, and also reflects the fact the County Council is now the lead agency for services with learning disability. You've got a list attached to the report, which sets out the details of the payments and the er, locations of the various establishments referred to. [speaker002:] Move the recommendation [speaker003:] Can I ask a question? I, I, I notice from the schedule that, I mean a tremendous difference in cost per person if you just add, divided the people into, which suggest the way you're being work out on a basis of individual needs, and what the carer provides. Will that continue to be the case, or are we looking at some kind of block grant formula here? With winners and losers again? I don't, I don't believe so. [Mike:] No, we, we're looking at individual cases still, and, indeed they will be reviewed as ind individual cases in the future, with the Health Authority clearly recognizing that it hasn't much of a responsibilities on them. [speaker003:] Okay, there are some very high costs obviously in this. Yes. [speaker002:] Any other points? Is it a recommendation? Agreed? Can we move on then to the Social, Social Care Enterprise Agency, marked K. [Mike:] Chairman, can we have your guidance on this, we have a report and we have a short video, by which I do mean a short video, do you wish to see the video, or do you wish to deal directly with the report? [speaker003:] Can we see after, when other peo members have to go to D T O first. [speaker002:] After the Committee. [Mike:] It lasts, it lasts eight minutes, Chairman. [speaker002:] It lasts eight minutes. [speaker003:] It would be Chairman, to see it afterwards. For those who can stay to see it. Ah, but it isn't going to make any difference to Yes, fine, just as long as we're going to see it. [speaker002:] Yes, alright, fine. [Mike:] The erm, Social Care Enterprise Agency. The Agency's work strategy has, has been made available to members, and erm, I think if we look back to a previous Committee, where the er, information was provided, that we had been successful. Er, fifteen er, schemes that were actually funded by the Department of Health out of a hundred and fifty bids, and the funding available, a hundred and fifty thousand pounds per year, er, up to the period er, ending thirty first of March ninety five. And under two, on the, on the paper, there is er, a statement of the er, objective of, of the Social Care Enterprise Agency, to develop the independent sector to the point where it can provide the range, type and quantity of services which will satisfy the purch purchasing authorities for community care needs, essentially daycare, domiciliary care and respite care. And I think it's important to make the distinction that the independent sector includes both the voluntary sector and er, the profit and er, sorry the, not the profit making organizations... er, the, the staff of the Agency consists of er, two officers and an admin administrative er, staff, and erm, they have been involved in a variety of er, different activities. There is a, there is a management team, which consists of erm, officers from the Social Services Department, and, and those from the agency itself. Er, I actually chair the er, management team, Bill pa Bill 's a member, and John who's from the Planning Section. So that, that's the er, it, they're the arrangements for the, for the Agency itself. Now the activities. What was done here is to list er, a lot of the activities that the Agency has, has been involved in, er, to, to date. The, the video does actually illustrate the way in which some of these services have been developed, and it includes some comments from people who are actually receiving services. They're very wide ranging, and if er, Chair, if members would, would just like to look down at the list of er, options, without going through er, each one individually, but they do range from er, work with er former cottage hospitals, er, front room day care, the further development of home care cooperatives, work er, for people who er, have spinal injuries, who have intake, and er, an interpreter service for, for people who have a hearing loss, and particularly er, helping er, the Shropshire Disability Consortium to set up an interpreting service in the county. And then er, a whole range of other initiatives. It's important to stress the relationship with Social Services, in that the Agency staff who link the very wide range of people from Social Services, often those people who hold local budgets and are in a position, using the funding that we have allocated to diverse things, to come up with creative solutions for, for er, keeping people at home rather than in, in institutional care. So for example, the front room day care project, and er, the project in Bishop's Castle, which actually includes day care in a public house, and a number of other things [speaker002:] I could do with some of that care. [speaker003:] Shut out, councillor [Mike:] which have, yes, used local facilities, and relied rather than on purpose-built er, accommodation, using those, those, that accommodation that is readily available. Er, it is important too, to stress that the Agency is acting as a bridge between the purchasing er, authority, the Social Services Department, and the er, independent sector, and that er, it's also important that er, too, that er, in many cases, er, the provider's income er, will, will not just come from Social Services, but it may be that people are purchasing their own care, if, if they're not eligible for public, public's er, help through, through funding, and therefore the scheme is much wider than just looking at the purchasing intentions of the, the Social Services Department. Just to conclude, erm, I mentioned earlier that er, members of the, of the Committee have already received a copy of the Agency's first work strategy. The intention there Chair, is to, is to do further work er, to consolidate on the work that's been achieved during the, during the year, but also to set out a programme for the er, following period of time, er, from er, April nineteen ninety four until March nineteen ninety five, so that erm, members of the Committee are able to comment on the, on the intentions er, on the draft strategies that are being put forward as a result of the review that takes place er, following the first year's activity. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you, comments? [speaker003:] Can I just ask if you and Paddy would decipher the fourth line of eighteen for me please Sorry about that formal whip Start sentence a bit of Self abuse, won't have seen them. Ah, that's, there's a, there's a mistake there. Or who have been abused. Or instead of O I don't normally pick things out just because of odd wordings, and start checking it out. [LAUGHTER] Sorry about that, could I just ask briefly the difference between a cooperative and an agency? One starts with a C, and the other with an A. Well you might be right. Brilliant, brilliant. Fourteen, fourteen is a cooperative, and sixteen you've put agencies, are they the s the same thing? No [Mike:] No they're not the same thing, er, cooperatives are er, organizations of workers who come together to provide services, and the County Council has actually provided some support and enabled them to get started. Er, home care agencies may well be private home owners who, who divert or they're existing, existing er, agencies that provide home care. [speaker003:] There's a profit element [Mike:] It's a profit element, yes. [speaker003:] Oh, there is a profit element, [Mike:] Yes [speaker003:] Oh, I see [speaker002:] Not in the cooperatives. [speaker003:] Not in the cooperatives. [Mike:] The other difference, Chair, if I may, was the cooperatives that currently put in Shropshire, they are essentially of self- employed people, who are working together in a cooperative, and there's certain advantages that that presents them with. Whereas the agencies tend to be agencies employing people directly and then marking sense. [speaker003:] Ah, yes. [speaker002:] Any further comments, points? Okay, thank you. Er, moving on then to the tabled items which should be placed L, marked L. Item eleven, selling to the hospital resettlements. [speaker003:] It's concerning request, Chair, to replace the first few pages [speaker002:] Oh, right. [speaker003:] Er, the following three pages of the papers sent out to members still stand, but there is some confusion in the numbering on er, the first page of the rest of the report, and there was a section missed out on the second page of the report which er, we've inserted in the new papers there. Second the report? Could I just say Chairman? Adrian who's responsible for resettlement is here if members have any questions. I have a question. Mm It's about on, on one of the pages [LAUGHTER] [clears throat] It's er, called revenue shortfall, four hundred and ninety eight thousand. Er, I can't quite make it out, but if the erm, the Health Authority doesn't seem to be providing as much as the scheme is going to cost, is that right? So where's the rest coming from? [Mike:] That, Chair, is the nub of the problem with that scheme in terms of a closing sum sort of diverting previous Shropshire residents back into Shropshire. Erm, and we put to them they can't take a simplistic approach of saying this is what's to cover the cost in selling from there and that is all that's available to place people more appropriately in the community. Have you just left that in? [speaker002:] Yes, er, erm, er, to demonstrate all the previous er, developments that we, we've undertaken and community care is not the cheap alternative, it's er, it's considerably more expensive, er, four hundred and eighty now and four hundred thousand represents a difference that we've estimated between the care coming in from hospital, and in care er, envisaged by providing for the residents in the community. How that er, shortfall is to be met, erm, when this er, paper was written er, the knowledge that the Health Authority have had somewhat of a windfall recently, erm, er, which er, is, is, er, under development discussion at the moment. Whether the increasing in capitation that the Health Authority perceive could actually be used er, to, to meet the shortfall that is identified in this paper. [speaker003:] In pr proof terms Chairman, we want to have a go at the District Health Authority and we want to have a go at the Regional Health Authority. Yes, we've got proof. [speaker002:] Okay, moving on then to item twelve, er, marked M, the Children's Plan, ninety four, ninety five. [speaker003:] Yes, Chair, erm, [clears throat] the Committee is now required under Department of Health directives to make specific policy statements and identify the resources implications formula, by way of a Children's Service Plan. And there's a considerable amount of work that's gone in into the erm, production, erm, of what you have before you now. We approached it on the basis of er, collecting information on the Children in Need definition which a, er, a paper came before you when the Children's Act was implemented, and that gives local discretion to authorities to, to define Children in need. So the six categories, or the six headings that are contained in paragraph one, one, er, comprise er, that Children in Need definition, and where the, these services in future er, will be concentrated. Under each, each heading, erm, we have set out the priority objectives together with an outline strategy statement of achieving each objective, and er, we have in the department a lead officer for each of those headings. The next stage of the exercise is in fact to er, put together a financial profile er, identifying A, how er, a shift of resources er, can be achieved or identifying what additional er, resources are needed. The theme throughout the er, paper, er, and the strategies is to er, divert from residential er, provision, to more community based provision. And you'll see that theme er, in, in a number of headings. If I can pick up specifically the point that er, Mrs was making this, this morning, under the children looked after heading, under strategy, it's priority objective one and strategy two, you'll see in there that it is the intention to put in some two hundred thousand pounds for er, for community er, based resources. At the present time, the children looked after at Boat is seventy percent of the total of the Children's Services budget, and therefore, there is er, a considerable er, sum of money being divested erm, in, in this area of work. Where's this figure please? Sorry, it's on page, little, the numbering is confusing again, it's on page one [speaker002:] I'll look at [speaker003:] Yes, I've got that, I've got the heading, but I haven't got the figure, er of two hundred. It's about strategy, it is the second column, Second to last Second column, and it is the second paragraph, where it says [reading] to provide contingency plans to improve seven section, seventeen budget by two hundred thousand pounds []. Tell us Mr Chairman, it's the second to last of the yellow sheets, I mean the block of sheets, the next to last but one in the, in the of, start at the back. [speaker002:] A training course will be provided, er, [speaker003:] Sorry Chair, this is not the easiest of documents Sorry, I've picked it up, sorry about that. That figure has referred to preventative services. Whilst we're able to implement quite a considerable proportion of the er, objectives without any financial commitment, this particular er, issue does erm, provide us with a considerable test, and members need to know that in order to achieve the move from residential care to community care, we would have to have some ring-fence monies to be able, to enable that shift to, to take place, before the erm, the budget could be reduced on the residential side. So, what I'm saying is we actually need the community services to be in place, er, and I'm referring to such services as under-fives provision, er, increased support to er, to families er, and the children to avoid the need to er, to accommodate those children in care, more provision er, for er, youth justice work. All that comes within this er, this actual figure, but to achieve the shift, we do need some underpinning er, to begin the process. As I say, we're now, we shall now be working on the er, on a financial strategy, so that we've got more detailed costings er, available to us, erm, but I think members will be interested to know that erm, within the next few months there will, we shall be taking part, er, as part of a wider national exercise, in an exercise undertaken by the District Audit Commission, on Children's Services, so that we, I think we shall be in good stead, to have this as a base as a working document for that erm, Audit Commission exercise. Do you want to comment Mrs? [speaker006:] Oh thank you. I'm glad to see the two hundred thousand, though I would have picked it up under, erm, children already erm, over the age of about five, but maybe I've got that wrong. Erm, I suppose there is a fairly broad brush there. Erm, I'd like to, I'm glad you picked up the children looked after by the local authority, but what bothers me is the children in families that are causing concern rather than for those that are actually erm, in care. Erm, they may not be in fact in care, but they are at risk both educationally, behaviourally, and nuisance in the community and things of this kind. Erm, without stigmatizing them, it is possible to identify families where any new addition to the family or youngster coming into it, obviously are children who need erm, extra backup in one form or another, before they reach school age. These are the ones I am particularly anxious about at the moment, erm, now I've put down four different headings on this particular way that I think we could help, erm, and hopefully, if there's two hundred perhaps you'd tell me whether there's two hundred thousand is aimed at perhaps some of it, in, in this direction or not, I don't know? Er, assisted places in playgroups with a wider scope, now in other words, you don't have to be at the end of the line so to speak, you can have help on, er, a much softer criteria. [speaker002:] Not, not, terribly sorry Mrs to stop you in full flow, but we haven't got th this money. [speaker006:] No but if [speaker002:] It's clear, yes. [speaker006:] Yes, okay, I accept that, er, thank you. Erm, so playgroups I feel need, erm, particularly for certain children, they need to find assisted places of some sort, because say it's one eighty a session, and they need several sessions a week, if they're to benefit from it, and one eighty or one seventy or whatever the cost is, which I think is round about that figure, erm, is not something that a family normally would have priority, the, the kind of family who has to have erm, needs, special needs anyway themselves. Holiday schemes, in other words, during the Christmas, er, particularly the summer holidays was extremely full in our areas that had these schemes, but it is true to say that some of the children did not pay their full amount. But they were kept going in it, rather perhaps at the discretion of those running the schemes rather than to throw them out, and as a result we did not have a scrap of vandalism in the area during the whole of the summer holidays. It's incredible to say so, but it's proved the case, and I feel very strongly on that as a result. Erm, parent involvement, there is no mention in this report about parent involvement, and I think this is absolutely essential that the, it's often the families who are poor parenting, because they've been poor parent people, and you have succession, and we've gone somewhere along the line, we've got to go down that road. The sort of way we can help is the mother and toddlers groups in this kind of thing, where the parents are involved and inevitably do learn quite a lot erm, about how to function and you know, to play with them, and the things that they enjoy. Introducing a lot of things they've never had before in their lives I'm afraid to say. Erm, and er, sometimes the under-fives provision, er, need assistance in rent. Now, this may sound also, but when you've got to pay five hundred pounds out a year, and you've got to fund raise and do it, often for young families this is a consideration. I, I put that as number four, rather than the first three, which I think are terribly vital, so I would be grateful if these sort of things were taken on board. [speaker003:] Just a quick response, Chairman. What the Committee doesn't have the advance er, advantage of, er, is the accompanying documents to the paper that is before them, and I assure Mrs that those first three are covered in the documents and, and the strategies that we proposed. And indeed, fit very well into what we call the section seventeen budget, which is section seventeen of the Children Act nineteen eighty nine, which er, does enable the local authority to provide preventative services, to avoid the need for children to be looked after in care. [speaker006:] It ought to be started as quickly as possible, as the child virtually is born. [speaker002:] Any further points, comments? Okay thank you. [clears throat] We move on then to placement of young people from Shropshire out-county, marked N. Which is a bit more of the, I think, the discussion we had at last Committee and at the Council. [speaker003:] Yes, Chairman, er Sorry. [Mike:] In a sense Chairman, the report stands, I mean I don't intend to add anything further to it, unless members er, really wish me to, it can be accepted. [speaker003:] Okay, do you wish members to know Chairman, that you have a meeting arranged for? No [speaker002:] Only certain of them. Erm, if we move on then to item O, teen care. Item fourteen. [Mike:] Yes Chairman, er, during the budget debate at the recent erm, programme advisory groups, members er, had before them, as you have in the budget document, the possibility of selling a number of teen care places to other local authorities. And our members did ask for a more detailed report on the scheme, and this, this report er, set out that scheme in er, in a fuller way. It is a scheme that is er, an alternative to placement in children's homes, for adolescents with severe behavioral and emotional difficulties, erm, whereby er, specialist er, foster parents er, are, are, recruited, they are extensively trained, and er, have the willingness to take on what are difficult and challenging youngsters and er, who are placed with them. The success of the scheme erm, has enabled erm, some sale of places to other local authorities, and if I can just draw your attention to a slight error on page three, there is reference to Powys in two lines, and if you would delete please Powys one, placed in Staffordshire, er, it should read Powys two, placed by Staffordshire. I think from a financial point of view, what is er, of interest, and the economical use of these places as opposed to er, residential care, particularly specialist residential care, where p where we're able to provide er, at a cost of eleven, about eleven thousand two hundred and fifty pounds per child, as opposed to what can be considerable expenditure on er, on specialist out-county places. We currently have twenty nine youngsters erm, in places, erm, with a potential to offer forty three places, and erm, we are continuing to develop the scheme quite successfully. [clears throat] Chair, I want to say, it, it is a success, and er, that it's important to show you how diversion can work. [speaker003:] Sorry, Charles, Chair, can we er, in noting the report, also is there some way in which we can, the Committee can convey its appreciation to the people who take on this, must be onerous responsibility er, er, and also can we congratulate the people who thought the scheme up in the first place. There's nothing like enterprise in local government. upon, I agree with you. Peter [speaker007:] Well I was just going to say very much the same thing. I think it's an admirable scheme, and it's obviously very cost effective, and, and equal, and I, I think we should be very grateful that there are in fact a few caring people out there, and they're there to take this what could be a particularly onerous job on. [speaker002:] What I was interested in at, at the briefing er, for the Committee, was that we don't actually go out and sell this in inverted commas, to other authorities, they come to us, because they've heard it's good practice. Er, which I think is, is excellent, and what I suggest is that we look at trying to get exposed in some of the professional journals really. Particularly as we, we've had a major issue in our budget proposals to do specifically on this, this, but I think if we have good practice in Shropshire, we should be sort of er, shouting it from the rooftops really, as this is very good practice. Is, is it possible to do that Mike? I mean, it's [Mike:] Yes, that's in hand to accompany [speaker006:] Can I just quickly ask whether there's any cooperation with the youth service in taking these children out on, what I call a challenging activity like rock climbing, like at weekend residential, because you know, it, it seems cooperation there would be very beneficial I'm sure, in certain types of children who need the physical as well? It's not always possible for the teen care people to actually erm, have that expertise if you like. In other words, they can't go out themselves, perhaps rock climbing, they may have a lot of other attributes, but they haven't that particular attribute. [speaker002:] Well presumably with, what we're trying to do is create some sort of alternative family units, we don't want, although, er, laudable what the youth service does, is, we wouldn't want, if they don't want to plugged, clubbable together, if, if, if, if the, the unit could provide that, or provide alternatives to pick up the, the correlation between that and, and ordinary normal family unit, I would hope that that would have been the best way forward, erm, er, because often some youngsters are in this situation because they, they haven't found the, that sort of provision has been helpful for them. [speaker006:] Well I don't mean they have to join youth clubs but there is some kind of coordination. I mean, erm, I know my youth officer in my area takes them as individuals where the, they are youngsters who perhaps would benefit from that. He's going outside his brief if you like, he's doing a very good service. [speaker003:] But surely Mr Chairman, if, if you want to integrate these people into the family unit they would go along with what the family would normally do. And the more they become integrated, then they would expand out, join the Scouts, the Guides or go to the local youth club, so be part of the, the er, growing up process which they haven't been afforded. That was my understanding and I got it right and discussed it with him [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Any further points? [speaker003:] No sorry gov now let me think. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It's called telepathy, yes. Any further points? No, okay, if we can move on then to, where have I got to now, Oh, [speaker003:] P [speaker002:] P right. Visits to social service establishments. [speaker003:] Item fifteen Chair. Fifteen Fifteen sorry. Is that marked? Or just [speaker002:] Oh, I'm so I'm sorry Mark. [speaker003:] I, I, I think we, we haven't had an overwhelming response No In fact we've had an underwhelming response, I think at this present minute, and so could I put out the er, request again to members er, to consider coming to this seminar. He is very good, Mr, and he has been a county councillor in I think Staffordshire, before the days of pindown I have to er, hasten to add, but he does know both sides of the er, street as it were. [speaker002:] One, one point that was made to me is, is it might be, it might be too late for this, but it might be helpful for some staff from residential establishments to actually get to understand what official visits are as well. Er, then there might be some confusion about the role of members, [speaker003:] They've been invited [speaker002:] They've been invited, well that's great, because I think often, sometimes it's a bit embarrassing for both sides. [LAUGHTER] Okay. So that's er, noting for the diary. Now we do move to P. [speaker003:] When is it? Twenty seventh of January. It's down on your pages, it's down on your agenda. [speaker002:] It's on the agenda. Item sixteen then, which is visits to social service establishments. Marked P. [speaker003:] Mr Chairman, just one quick, and that is it seems to me that there seems to be very few councillors attending. I went to two, and er, my name was the last on the, the form. There should have, there should have been three or four names, and that's, I'm talking about visiting residential homes. It's on, on the report, but it's [speaker002:] I mean I don't, do we review the situation? [speaker003:] I can tell you, we can certainly tell the er, yes. I mean the periodic, the, the intervals of visiting, and er, who has visited, but I feel very much this is er, an item for members as it were, That's right. members to members, and not perhaps for officers to interfere too much other than to give you background information, and it has been falling off, let me just say that. [speaker002:] Mrs, next [Mike:] Can I just make a comment about one section of visiting, and that's when you have to do, er, Brookside, Wellington and Highfield. Doing them altogether, I find difficult to do, apart from the weather point of view, if it could be fitted to two maybe, you know you co you go to somewhere in Church Stretton okay, it's distant enough when you have one place to go, when you do the Wellington section, you've got four, and I find it very difficult to work and chase round to children's homes, to give it any. [speaker003:] That's usually when there's three of us visiting. Ah, yes. [Mike:] Yes, but it'd be easier if it was two for the two. It's quite a bit to do on one day, to go and do four. [speaker003:] That's the sort of issue Chair, that we shall be able to address on the twenty seventh. [speaker002:] Yes, okay, then maybe you can mark that up then, and it might be that we, we might have to circulate all members again to see if they assume the situation of being able to undertake these particular requests er, about the visits. [speaker003:] When we went to Telford and Charles, I think we did it in an afternoon didn't we, and that includes every single cul-de-sac in the area. [LAUGHTER] Every road in the area to find the place. Anyway, went to ten o'clock one night , fit him well. [speaker002:] Okay, moving on then, erm, where are you, Q [speaker003:] Q, which is er, [speaker002:] Age concern. [speaker003:] Yes, Chairman... I, I think members will be aware that er, we have er, always erm, enjoyed a very close relationship with Age Concern culture, and erm, they do invaluable work on behalf older people in the county, and I think like all organizations and in the changing climate, there was a need for them to er, to, to review their situation, and in, in the changing world, and I'm pleased to say that Age Concern recognized that there was a need to er, to adjust their relationship with the County Council, primarily to enable them to, to further develop and take advantage of the funding opportunities that are available now under the new arrangements for care in the community. So arising out of erm, very, erm, tentative discussions with Age Concern, with its officers and with their er, managing er, group, er, this proposal comes before you to enable them to, to become totally independent of the County Council. To be able to continue the activities that they have traditionally undertaken, er, with substantial er, grant and financial support from the County Council. But also to put them in position whereby in the future, as the needs for further services emerge, they will be able erm, to, to contribute with the department for, for those services for that er, appropriate funding. They provide another choice for older people in the er, range of agencies available to meet their needs. Because largely up to the present time in the er, as far as older people are concerned, then the only alternative to the current truth, and direct provider of services, has been the straight private sector. This would put a major voluntary sector provider in the, in the field. indicated [speaker002:] Comments? [speaker003:] Can I just query the cost of Cloverfield Hospice, I just wondered why that was so much more expensive than the others? Right. Is Cloverfield funded? [Mike:] Thank you, Chair, it's basically been allocated in terms of floor area, and what we've said to Age Concern, is in so far as we continue to provide them with premises, then we will, if we adjust those charges, we will adjust their grant accordingly. So in a sense that's the way [clears throat] the planning is currently allocated, it's allocated on a floor area basis. I suspect Age Concern don't require that but it's there, and they're the sole user of it at the moment. They will ultimately I presume, move into the new centre when it's er, when it's built and available in Whitchurch and it will need amendment at that stage. But on the financial plan Chair, [speaker002:] Sorry, before you leave that, I mean, does that, do we still own the premises then? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Sorry, go on. [Mike:] Erm, Chair, on the general financial position, it's, it's what I referred to earlier, as moving from somewhere where there were a direct employer or where we were grant-aiding a voluntary body to get on to a more, ultimately a more commercial footing, where we relate the money that we're paying to the services that are being provided. Erm, Age Concern have recognized that, and wish to move in that direction, although quite clearly, as far as the existing staff are concerned, in the initial move there were certain erm, reservations and wishes and er, and uncertainties which they tried to address in discussions with us and in this paper. And I particularly draw members' attention to top of the second page where you are requested to indemnify Age Concern for any redundancy costs that may arise in the future. I would stress that's redundancy costs in respect of service that employees have accrued whilst they have been directly employed by you. So it's basically Age Concern saying they're quite happy and the staff are quite happy about transferring but they're not happy on taking on board, er, er, potential redundancy liability which has arisen because they will employ these people directly. It is a relatively small sum that you're talking about here because there are not that many employees with long service involved, and so the indemnity is, in our terms not a sizable amount, but I can understand Age Concern's worries in terms of simply pick picking it up as part of transfer, and why we'd certainly recommend it to you. [speaker003:] How would we transfer their, their pensions then, all their normal rights and everything else? [Mike:] They, they are entitled, if they elect to do so, to continue to be members of the local government's evaluation schemes, so they are eligible and have applied for membership on it. That report went to Resources sub-committee erm, and they should be allowed access to the plan, and continue their pension scheme. [speaker003:] They really are a very vibrant organization, and er, I think we really would wish them well, and, and very pleasing to see them adapting to the new circumstances. The figures are, sorry, Chair. Could I ask Mr Chairman, just as a matter of interest, it's first community care as much as I,, really, erm, what, what if any, erm, alteration will there be to the volunt to volunteers that continue at the moment, will There will be There will be no, no, no difference in any circumstances? [Mike:] The big, the big advantage Chair, and one of the reasons that it appeals to us to, to go along with Age Concern on this is that, as you know, the area of activity in terms of day centre provision in which they are very active, is one whereby on the current grant mechanisms for community care, and our need to spend eighty five percent in the voluntary and independent sector, whilst they were directly employed by us, we couldn't divert a substantial amount of that money in their direction if they wished to develop services. This will enable to do that, and to do it in fashion where it still qualifies er, to attract grant if necessary. [speaker003:] I understand that Mr. [speaker002:] Okay, [speaker003:] Chairman, I, I represent this Committee on the Age Concern County Committee, and I'll keep, keep an eye on it, I've, I'm as active, I'm as active as possible. I think it's a step in the right direction. I think we should erm, wish, wish them well. I think the only difficulty is that bound not the Boundary Commission, the erm, Charities Commission who er, have very awkward rules about things, which er, they could still er, still try to resolve. [speaker002:] Okay any further? Is it a recommendation? Is that agreed? If we move on then to item R, which is item eighteen, Bridgenorth Community Hall. [speaker003:] Thank you Chairman, erm, I'm not sure Chair, whether there are members still on this Committee who will recall the er, previous erm, proposal for a multi-purpose day centre in Bridgenorth. It was a, a project in the Committee's capital programme where it came potentially within the revenue budget. I know that there is at least one member here who had an interest er, in, that, that time. Erm, for a variety of reasons Chair, that proposal did not go ahead, erm, and I think probably the major reason in that was erm, the County Council's erm, inability to, to meet the cost of the project as it started to, to set up. But that, that wasn't the sole reason, there were a number of factors, but that was the significant one I think. So the project was dropped, the local community in the intervening time had er, picked the p the project up if you like, to provide a community er, resource in the low town area of Bridgenorth. It would obviously would be particularly relevant to, to the Lowtown area, but I think it should also be seen in a, the wider context of Bridgenorth and the surrounding area. It is not exclusively for the use of, of Lowtown as such. Erm, er, the funding for that project which I understand has a total cost in excess of a hundred and sixty thousand pounds, has been met from a variety of sources, er, primarily local, but with a contribution from the County Council through the Leisure Services Committee, and also through the Resources Management sub-committee, and in a, indirect sense, in that the, the, the land transferred to the County Council from the District Council for a particular sum, when the project didn't go ahead, the land went back to the District, and had appreciated in value in the intervening time. But in fact, I think it went back to the District at the er, price that it had Plus any interest accrued in the interim so erm, in, in some sense, it is with the Secretary of State's consent, erm, the land was conveyed back at less than market value as it stood, but erm, er, and I guess there are a variety of views on that particular er, aspect of the situation. Suffice it to say Chairman, in the intervening time the project has gone ahead with considerable erm, er, local support, both in terms of finance, but I think also in terms of the er, the effort that er, particular individuals in the area have put in to make this project happen. I don't think it's too much to say that erm, if they knew now what er, if they knew now what er, they know then what they know now, they'd probably never have embarked upon er, upon the project. They have brought the project to the stage where it is almost completed and only remains for the ba the building basically to be fitted out internally, and they have largely raised the funds to do that, but they are some ten thousand pounds short, and they came to erm, the Department with a request that we erm, assist them with this ten thousand pounds shortfall in the funding. On the basis that this would provide a resource in the Lowtown Bridgenorth area, that I suppose would do two things. It would erm, provide er, a base where activities could take place in that area, but whilst not, if you like, not directly benefiting the Social Services Committee, or the people that then go to it, would indirectly benefit us in that it would be available for youth and other activities in support of the community that have a knock-on effect er, as far as we're concerned. But secondly, would potentially provide an opportunity in future, where Social Services could in its direct role of developing services to assist older people and other clients of the Department, could base those activities, and that without this base available it would be very difficult to respond to the needs of that area. So they are saying please, erm, could you recognize the erm, the tremendous effort that has been made locally, er, and that erm, and recognize the, the value that this resource provides for the future of that community by er, assisting us to complete the project. Erm, er, the only way we could do that Chair, is erm, by use of, of contingency funds and er, one's aware very much of debates earlier in the day about the, the many pressures that the County Council and the Department faces, but erm, I would ask members to, to give very careful consideration to er, assisting to finish this project. Thank you Chair. [speaker002:] Peter. [speaker007:] I, I would like to support this Chair, and it's a relatively small amount, especially I don't know how much it would, it would cost, but erm, Andy the er, District Youth Officer, did produce er, er, a very much in-depth report erm, to the last of the Southern Area Youth Advisory Committee, erm, showing erm, how much demarcation er, the, the, the actual river does produce, and is very much a relatively deprived area, and I, I think for the amount of money that's involved here, I think in view of what he said then, I don't know the area at all, but er, I, I think he would be erm, very impressed with it. [speaker002:] Gilly? [Mike:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Although I'm not actually on the Committee of the Bridgenorth Community Centre, I'm obviously very closely connected with it, and as we've previously spoken about Age Concern, it is our hope that another day centre for the elderly will be set up once that community centre is up and running, because there are a great deal of elderly in that particular area. I mean, where we're situated in what we call Cellar Street, it's mostly elderly people so hopefully, it, it can be taken up erm, by erm, Social Services in that connection. I also understand from meetings, I'm meeting a group of social workers as I call them, that are dealing with the people with learning difficulties, erm, these are at present taking place in the Castle Hall. This I do know is not, is not at this place successful, not for people concerned with the, the facilities are not really adequate, and I understand that they also would be hoping to take advantage of this community centre. It is as we know going to be grandly opening, it has cost more than we anticipated as Bill's probably said, we found out we had to put the foundations on a raft, because er, [speaker002:] It's in the river area, isn't it? [Mike:] Yes, the will be floating in the river when we went down to do the foundations, so it, it has cost a lot more money in, than we anticipated, and certainly in time and effort. And I do plead with this Committee to erm, let this go forward because it does mean that we will get our community centre up and running erm, in the spring with the assistance of this Committee. [speaker002:] Erm, I, can I just ask? Has the particular organization applied elsewhere for grants as well? [Mike:] Oh yes, oh yes. [speaker002:] And have you received any? [Mike:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] Yes Chairman, of the hundred and sixty thousand plus cost, erm, part of the contribution by the major servicing committee, and I understand that they advised me the balance has been made from local contributions, and charitable sources. [Mike:] No, yes, yes, yes, yes. [speaker002:] I mean the only comment, the only comment I'd, I'd make in relation to, to, to the scheme in principle I would support it. Erm, I think the agreement er, which is the l the last paragraph on the page, is a bit loose. Erm, [Mike:] But I've got a letter here Mr Chairman. [speaker002:] Yes, hang on, hang on let me just, I think that agreement is a bit loose although I'm grateful to to mention those new specific groups er, because I think if, if we're, if we're allocating this sort of money, we would, we would want some er, some guarantees [Mike:] Only later Derek [speaker002:] Some guarantees that, that, that, that er, sort of er, day care facility and possibly a facility for people with er, learning disabilities, that there would be room available on a regular basis, I mean it, I, yes [Mike:] That's in the letter [speaker002:] I mean, if that, if that reassurance could be given then, then I, I don't particularly have a problem. [Mike:] I think there's no doubt, there's a meeting on Thursday night Mr Chairman, and I'll refer your comments to the meeting. [speaker003:] Well I meant to say, if, if, if we, if there is an assurance that elderly people are going to be helped, and there's going to be a day centre there, I think we do handle the elderly pretty much anyway in this county, I would be certainly prepared to support it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] He's pushing the boat by those comments isn't he []? [LAUGHTER] Any further view? Well subject to, to that sort of reassurance [Mike:] Yes, I accept that Mr Chairman [speaker002:] Yes, erm, are people in agreement with the recommendation? [speaker003:] Yes Yes, as long as we get the insurance. [Mike:] Oh yes, [speaker002:] Assurance, don't you mean? [speaker003:] Assurance, yes [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Okay assurance, okay if we can move on then to item nineteen, which is motion Evening and Saturday Meetings. Comments? [speaker003:] I move that we stay as we are. Yes, I second that. I've never been so popular. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Is that why Peter's not come today, is it because... I was going to say I support a Saturday meeting particular during the budget process, because it's more easier for me. Okay, well it's status quo, let's move this vote. Those in favour? [speaker003:] Status quo Yes [speaker002:] I think that's unanimous, dealt with that. The rate we're going we'll be here this evening until he pointed at me. Erm, item twenty, erm, which is advisory group. [speaker003:] Can I propose Ted here? [speaker002:] Ted 's been proposed, is that's seconded? [speaker003:] Seconded. [speaker002:] Any further nominations. No, Ted then. If we can move on then to the fourth page, item twenty one, it should prepared to move? [speaker003:] No [speaker002:] Seconded, those in favour? Against? Abstentions? [speaker003:] Six of them.... [speaker002:] If we can deal with item S.... [tape turned off and then restarted with what seems to be a separate conversation] [speaker003:] Play on the screen there It's give it away. It can be helped anyway. I haven't heard anything about, I've had no comment from he's basically moving, and er, and... [recording unclear] [phonecall starts] Well, we're okay, we can go later, we'll go later.... To, yes, we'll go do that. How's that? Didn't know you were back... oh, right,... yes, we can go back a week.... it is yes, yes, not so bad and you? Yes, you missed all the, missed all the planning.... [LAUGHTER]... Yes, yes, we can put that back to the eleventh, so there's plenty of time, okay. Right [phonecall ends].... This is the only establishment that's in trouble, er, we have information about other establishments. I'm not saying it's the same s... I can use that tonight can I? Okay. We, the Audit Commission advise... [recording unclear].

[speaker001:] This too, they left until the end of the meeting in er, in part two. [speaker002:] Part two. [speaker001:] Sure, do you mean paper B or do you mean the whole of item three? [speaker002:] The whole of item three... the whole of item three. You agree? [speaker001:] Agreed There is a problem with magistrates courts and things like that Chairman, and I don't think there's contention about that is there? [speaker002:] They are, there are in parts. We make it. [speaker001:] Are they? As I understand it Chair, what you're saying is, that there are, at three there is a, a request for an exclusion of press photographers, but the convenience of press photography we're saying that instead of taking immediately so that we'd have to call them back here for the even later, we're asking you for it to be taken at the end with the rest of exclusion [speaker002:] That's correct. [speaker001:] But Chairman, that refers to item three two, not the whole of three [speaker002:] Yes, but I mean, it, it is erm, [speaker001:] three wild parker, presumably, so that I, I, I would assume Mr Chairman if we do have to maybe you'll be sure that he, the with three, two agreement? [speaker002:] Yes, [speaker001:] Three two, yes, it's only three two. The others don't come under those sections. It's difficult for me, yes. [speaker002:] Okay, you agree? [speaker001:] Three two Yes On the budget And three three On the? No Yes, there seems to be some database with what we're We can't, [speaker002:] We can't, we can't take C before B really, we'd have to discuss C before B, we can come back into public on C if you so desire, at the end Mr [speaker001:] But B will be erm, [speaker002:] but B three will be in section in three [speaker001:] We're talking about B three Captain, B three is open to the public press, unless count county solicitors propose a good reason why it shouldn't be. [speaker002:] But we don't want to discuss that before B do we really? [speaker001:] We've got to make a decision on B before we can finalize C. Thank you. Alright. Yes Chair,th th that's right, as I understand it, there is no reason why C should not be discussed next session, indeed it's probably right that it should be, but it's a matter for members to decide whether they can usefully do so before considering B. [speaker002:] We can go back into public after B if you so desire. [speaker001:] Yes, yes [Jennifer:] Are we not allowed to defer B until the end of the meeting? [speaker002:] But we can't take C Mrs, until we've taken B. [Jennifer:] No, oh, right, I see. [speaker001:] [clears throat] I will, I will second you that we Agreed, yes We can do three, four Chairman. [LAUGHTER] We just agreed it. Three, four? Three, four's only for report. [speaker002:] Three, four is only a report. [speaker001:] We haven't had the opportunity to decide the recommendations there. [speaker002:] So, I mean the recommendations are finally complete, have you submitted to Policy and Resources Committee? [speaker001:] Read, read over Chairman, can I ask what, what your intentions are with, with the budget, Chairman and there's great public interest in the budget. Is it your intention to enter a statement part erm, at the end of the meeting to the press and so on? [speaker002:] If the press are here they can safe safely hear the items, if they're not here it doesn't matter. [speaker001:] They're not here [speaker002:] We'll deal with that when it comes, we're to it yet, anywhere near. [speaker001:] No, no [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] Can I propose we move on to four. [speaker002:] Yes, we'd better just approve the minutes of the meeting process, of the last meeting first of all, hadn't we lads? I've completely overlooked it. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Agreed? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Item four, Trace of Deeds.... Mr. [speaker004:] Erm, I don't really wish to add anything in particular to this if people would like to ask questions, then I'm prepared to answer them. The, just note there is a short article note on the Waterprice situation overpage. If anybody wants to expand on that or anything else I'm willing to do so. [speaker002:] Okay, anybody want to question Mr on any of the points? [speaker001:] What's the feeling about B S E Mr Chairman, where're our feelings, put them down or what? [speaker004:] Er, yes, Mr Chairman, nationally it is going down, locally we're, we're going along on a plateau, erm, and in some areas it is actually go the incidence is going up, but this is basically like Scotland where they haven't got many anyway. So the, the overall figure is going down, and this really reflects the way outbreaks have occurred, in that some areas have a lot early on, they're dropping off. We had a quite a number at the middle of the outbreak, er, that continuing erm, and some areas have had none, they're getting a lot. We, we will expect to go down. In other words, instead of almost doubling year by year, last we are about the same, we haven't got all the confirmations, we're about the same as we were the year before, give or take a few, about say five percent. Whereas before we were going up in leaps and bounds. [speaker001:] It's slowing down. Levelling off locally, nationally beginning to down. Jim there's a Despatches programme on Channel Four next week where some of the work that we've done on B S E is fea featured and my colleague's been through it as well. [speaker002:] So that's on Despatches on Channel Four next week. [speaker001:] Can I ask my usual old chestnut again, Chairman? Erm, if we're not allowing nerve tissue to be used in the feedstuffs of cattle, because we suspect that it might be carried in that, and therefore being transmitted to live, er, one species to another, how is it now we can buy chops with nerve ti tissue in it? Choking at the whole process? You're only buying lamb chops and pork chops with the [clears throat] spinal columns still in. You wouldn't buy beef with the spinal cords still in. That sounds nasty. So what you're saying is, I'm not sure of cutting the process are you? Can you say that with satisfaction in your voice? Yes [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay any other questions for Mr on paper D? [speaker001:] Okay will you excuse me, I'll be back in a mo. [speaker002:] If not we'll move on, thank you Mr. To paper E, report by the Chief Trading Standards Officer on Animal Health and Welfare. [Jennifer:] Chair erm, [speaker002:] Yes, Jennifer [Jennifer:] erm, on four, er, again I don't know what pigeon fanciers or pigeon er, what their views are on this, but you see, this is another European directive erm, there is a risk it says of this disease being airborne, it can be airborne, and it was shown that racing pigeons could introduce the disease to commercial flocks. Erm, is there really a danger of this, I see that er, the A C C are supporting the proposal, but is it just another sort of Euro directive that is going to cause a lot of expense and distress to a lot of people who keep pigeons, which is on the whole not a, you know, I was going to say, not a very erm, expensive form of sport or entertainment whatever. It can be I know, but I mean erm, I'm thinking of some of my electorate, and I haven't actually had the opportunity to ask them. [speaker001:] As long as they don't come home to roost. [LAUGHTER] Yes, [] [Jennifer:] I mean, can be, and might be and, and er, could be. Er, that isn't very definite is it? [speaker002:] No, I think it, it is, it's quite a complex situation, but there is a disease of p pigeons which is one of these paramixa viruses, which has occurred in the country and is a disease of pigeons, and most pigeon clubs in fact all pigeon clubs now I believe, insist that their members vaccinate their birds. So most birds are vaccinated [Jennifer:] All the birds, and do they? [speaker002:] Yes, most are vaccinated already. Now, obviously there are people who keep pigeons unassociated with clubs, it's not compulsory, but there's control in. So any other, including any, any other vaccines is really not a very great problem. The vaccine is administered by aerosol, it's not injected in, so it's just a matter of really spraying the vaccine in. So, I, I don't see this is a great problem for the [Jennifer:] Thank you very much... it's not really [speaker002:] and it's a, it's a belt and braces because if the other form of paramixa virus did come in, it would affect the poultry industry. [speaker001:] But when we how cow pest in the county last? Ten years ago? Eight years ago? Eighty four I came, about eight years ago, nine years ago. It was traced back to pigeons, feral pigeons though in th at the feeding stuffs erm, place in Liverpool. [speaker002:] So what we're saying really, or what you're saying, is that the costs, erm, are, not very ex not very high, and the cost is well worth the erm, protection that it er, that it gives. [speaker001:] It cuts down a, er, er, risk which is perhaps not that high in the first place. But it cuts it down. [speaker002:] So it's worth the cost? [Jennifer:] I mean, the report does say that pigeon fanciers are opposed on grounds of cost. [speaker002:] Yes, I, I agree with you on that. [speaker001:] I accept that's what they're saying Tom, you see. [speaker002:] But we're given information that the cost is not very high.... Other questions on the er, on the report? [speaker001:] Ch Ch Chair, can I embrace er, can I have consent under five. I, I think it's regrettable that the concerns and the criticisms of the use of open dips er, has still not gone away in spite of what the institute's said. But I think it's to be welcomed that a medical panel will be established. The difficulty is, is that there also needs to be some work done to evaluate alternatives, because clearly there is widespread concern about outbreak of er, sheep scab, not only in this area but indeed across the country. Members may well be aware of, of some of the actions that the A T C have been taking on this, and have been calling on that to actually look at that to list of alternate. Indeed I know a number of authorities who're actually considering sending delegations to, to meet with the Minister to discuss the whole issue of sheep dip, and er, the lack of compulsory in er sheep dipping. And er, I would like to propose that this Committee, together with the National Farmers' Union and Country Ploughmens' Association sends a delegation to London to meet with the Minister to discuss these issues and other, our concerns. I'll second that Mr Chairman. [speaker002:] Any members there want to express any thoughts on the matter? [Jennifer:] Yes, it's quite an ideal choice. [speaker001:] You've no doubt you'll be paid the only thing I wanted to ask Chairman, if somebody can help me? Er, the information comes out I think er, both in the newspapers and er, a number of the television and radios, bit touchy about organo-phosphates, er, in sheep dips. Some people are saying that they're deadly dangerous and er, we need to wrap up as if you're going into a nuclear zone, and er, somehow other people say they're vital, it depends on what sort of mix you use, and how you use it, and where you use it. I mean there, do we have any, do we have a view, do, does anybody know exactly what it is? That should we be using it, shouldn't we be using it? And er, if we shouldn't have been using it, what's the alternative? Because none of us wants to have er, the problems that are occurring when you don't put any sheep dip on. [Dave:] The problem is Chairman, that, that the Veterinary Products Committee are the only ones that can allow, that, that, sorry, that advise the Minister on what preparations should or should not be er, used. When we, we using B H C vaccine in eigh er, late seventies, early eighties, erm, that caused problems because we had residues left in the meat, and the French amongst others found it as well, so there were, there were problems there, and the Ministry went over to organo-phos or to organo-phosphorus dips, they were the only alternative that they'd got at that er, time. [speaker001:] Right [Dave:] Erm, the, all the arguments for and against organic dips have been considered this last nine months by the Veterinary Products Committee, and they've come out with a report I think, that satisfies no one, because it doesn't go either, either way in that respect at all, it's called for more research and, and erm, development in that, in that sense. It's difficult as far as the alternatives are concerned, is that no alternatives, but effectively it's about four times the cost to administer, because you can dip a hundred sheep off one of the er, packs and it's a smaller pack. So it's far more expensive and it doesn't do anything against fly strike during the summer. So farmers would have to use this against sheep scab and they've have to use other dips or sprays against fly strike in the sum sum summer. So ideally what the industry needs is an alternative that erm, is really, that kills off the sheep scab bug, and at the same time er, is er, affords protection against other erm, things like er, fly er strike. The Ministry, the Veterinary Products Committee is now going away and they're going to do even, even more work on it, erm, so I honestly don't think that, that we're going to get much more out of the Ministry until Veterinary Products Committee have come back and looked at it yet again, because the, the answer that you'll get is that they're already looking at that side of it. So far as compulsory sheep dipping is concerned, er, there are a number of counties that have put the view that erm, it should be made compulsory again. Erm, in Shropshire the M F U are known to be in favour of compulsory dips, there's no difference between us, but if we are going down, you are going to send a re erm, er, a joint representation, then I think before you agree to send a joint representation then you need to have a meeting with M F U and C L A, to make certain that we're all saying the same thing. Erm, and, and if we are going to do, to do that, then I'd suggest as well Chairman, that we er, raise the issue with er, A C C so that we don't go alone, we go with other authorities if that's what members want to er, do. But at the present time, I mean Mr er, might have more information, but my information was that erm, after the V P C reported, was that there was just no alternative dip in the foreseeable future. [speaker001:] Yes? I know what V P C means, but would you all [speaker002:] The Veterinary Products Committee. [speaker004:] Erm, yes, there is a report in erm, the er, veterinary literature just come out, on the use of an injection to control sheep scab. This is a, a it's the same as can be used against weevil fly. It, it seems to be very fairly effective, or very effective, but not a hundred percent effective, as the organo-phospho type, and you need to inject. But the obvious advantage of having an injection, is you don't have to put the sheep in a bath, but the disadvantage is you've got the residues which last us slightly longer. So you know, it's a, it's a balance. So as Dave says, the alternative dip protocol is, is very expensive, but it does leave no residue. [Dave:] The residue one is a problem as well Chairman, because when we had the sheep dipping campaigns, one of the things that we did was to, to just carry out some very quick rough checks at markets in this county to see whether in fact sheep were being withheld from slaughter sale for the required period. [speaker001:] Fourteen days. Ten, depends on the product, but fourteen days. [Dave:] Ten days, fourteen days whatever it might be. And we found that about twenty two percent of the er, sheep being entered, had been dipped within the period, so in other words they'd not been withheld, so it's a concern. You'd have to have cons you have to, as well as having the dipping controls, you'd have to have the controls over marketing as well. [speaker002:] Yes? [Dave:] Can I just come back Chair, and I recognize obviously there is er, further work that's going on with this and support that it does, but there is a case with the Parliamentary Ombudsman in discipline on this at the moment, so on the way in which it's been handled by the Ministry. But I think it is important for us to er, as an individual authority as well as working with other authorities, to actually keep up the pressure on the Ministry to, to let them know that this isn't going to go away, and that they've got to come up with some answers which are, which are going to try and satisfy people. And having said that, they recognize the difficulties of the moment, it's the question of the alternatives, and there needs to be some work done on that. In the papers there doesn't seem to be that, that, that [speaker001:] No in actual fact it was circulated to all members the V P C report of the, of the time. Yes [Dave:] Rather than the last meeting, it was just a couple of days after the last meeting, so rather than wait until now, I circulated all the papers I'd got. [Jennifer:] I think Chairman, it is of particular interest of Shropshire isn't it really? If anything Shropshire must have more sheep than almost any other county. I think we ought to look at, not necessarily with the agencies, our own delegation might well be able to do something. [speaker001:] Well Chairman I'm grateful for that, that information, what it says is that er, everybody else is just as confused as I am. No really, and er, so I, I don't feel quite such a fool as I did when I started to speak. But er, I think the advice that erm, Mr is giving us about who we talk to and when to talk to them, how we get to get together and present a united face to government is a, is a good suggestion, and I'd like to propose that er, we accept that. [speaker002:] Yes, yes. [speaker006:] I, I, I'm very concerned, erm, about this because er, I used to deliver this dip, and I, I'm concerned er, about my staff, and there's been lots of cases that have claimed that this er, dip has affected people. There's any amount of farmers, farm workers er, going sick because of this dip, there was last year. Whether it's genuine or not I don't know, but er, I think it was, it is dangerous stuff and erm, it is time, surely we do it, our scientists can find something better and cheaper. Because I mean, that, it, it costs the earth anyway, that damn stuff, it really does, with it, and it's a, well I, I did it on about eight hundred sheep so you know, my men are stuck in this for a day or two. It's er, it's not pleasant for them, and they're doing it in wet weathers, but I mean whatever erm, I find for them you know, to wear, I mean, time after time they get their feet down and slip and get them in. In fact I've known people to go right in, so it, it, it's not a simple job, you know, and they do take a great deal of risk with this, and I do, I mean it's much more serious than I think than the government find, it should really work hard to try, to try to find something else. We never had this problem years ago, I mean it's only do-gooders who stopped the stuff we used to use years ago which was a reasonable price, who's caused all these problems. [speaker002:] You, you're saying there is already an alternative? [speaker006:] Erm, a bit of [speaker002:] In your opinion? [speaker006:] Well yes, but I mean, it's before this erm, this lot came out, and er, that used to work alright and that didn't er, the do-gooders decided it was affecting our meat, [speaker002:] You're only expressing a personal opinion Councillor? [speaker006:] Well I don't know about that, it seems to be a general opinion for farmers. [speaker002:] Well why does the Farmers Union support, anyway we won't go into an argument about that, but I mean the M F U support the dipping and er, with due respect, it's a personal opinion. [speaker007:] Well sir, they're, we support dipping because it's already been stated to note that we make most of the money for Shropshire from farming, and sheep is one of the big things which we sell all over the country, but unless we can guarantee our sheep are clear of er, disease people aren't going to come here and buy meat and stuff are they? And that's the important point. [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [speaker002:] Are you agreeing that some, some action should be taken? [speaker007:] Oh yes, I'm all favour of dipping, but I want a safer dip for the operators. [speaker002:] , well you've heard the motion, [Dave:] If, if Mr accepts that, can I er, call a meeting with perhaps a member from each of the groups and an M F U and C, C L A? [speaker001:] I doubt Mr can be included in that because he's on the A C C, aren't you on the A C C committee for this? [speaker007:] No, not on this particular committee services [speaker001:] No, alright, sorry, sorry alright. [speaker002:] Okay are you all agreed? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Any other points on the, on this report?... [Jennifer:] Erm, only one Chairman, on, on eight under inbred. Making inspections on cattle on page four, erm, one thousand one hundred and forty two inbred, and five hundred and twenty three bred. Is one thousand one hundred and forty two incorrect inceptions or whatever, correct, isn't that very high? [Dave:] Yes, it's the, the failure to keep bovine identification breed re records by two or three far farmers and it's one of those things where if you've got a lot of animals and you haven't marked them, then you get a lot of incorrects, and that's why we've got to go through it. [Jennifer:] So it's just two or three people, and not? [Dave:] Yes, yes, yes. Erm, the situation in Shropshire as far as records are concerned is erm, relatively good. [speaker001:] It would be even better now, now we've got these systematic What? [speaker002:] Okay, I expect everybody's noticed seven and noticed the legal proceedings that followed that. Right we'll move on. Fire and Rescue Quarterly Report. [speaker001:] Fire Officer, paper F, and I think you've had a... something additional put on your table because you've had with that paper A. Oh It's against statistics for July to Sept July to September. I think it's worth er, noting Chairman the high incidence of er, chip pans, which are domestic chip pans, not chip shops, quite a high incidence still of domestic fires caused by domestic chip pans. Chairman can I also say that the er, the false alarms situation seems to have gone down. Erm, I think we ought to make it very clear again, that we can now trace calls, and er, I hope the press are noting that and making as much as they can of it, because that's the sort of thing that helps to remove malicious calls, which go which cost a lot of money, and a lot of time, and also put somebody else's life in danger when an appliance has been called out to something that it's not required for. So that's er, that's a very pleasing er, statistic if I may say so, and er, I reinforce again we can now check and find out where false calls come from. Thank you Chairman. [Jennifer:] Chairman, on, on the front of page, under over the border calls, I don't know whether people saw the erm, local news last night, about the cuts in Herefordshire and Worcestershire, and apparently there's just one appliance will be in Kidderminster, erm, will that mean we'll have more over the border calls, because they won't be able to get appliances? [speaker002:] I, no, well the answer is no as far as the Chief Fire Officer is concerned.... Do you want to speak on this er, [George:] No, Chief hasn't set any questions, erm, the other change to this has been to remove the fire's special interest and we've put in as a separate paper, so that we can bring them up to date. Hitherto you've always received them three, six months in arrears. What we're trying to do is get it, reasonably up to date, and these are of course then, photographs for the album as well. [speaker002:] Yes there are photographs going round by the way. Yes Councillor? [speaker001:] Yes, could I just raise a point on two on the analysis of fire calls. Erm, the heading doubtful, arson suspected. There seems to be quite an increase over the year, erm, virtually double. Erm, are they actually in particular areas, grouped and, and particular age groups which may be causing these incidents? [George:] Yes, very much so in fact, and in this sort of thing the local trend is similar to the national trend. People who set fires tend to be young males, there are very few female arsonists, and there are not that many in the sort of later age group. They tend to be young, and they tend to be male. That's not always the case, but it's, that's the tendency. Erm, there is an increase nationally, we've got a similar increase locally, although the figures that we've shown there are probably distorted slightly. I mean it's not anything like as dramatic as that, but it's, because it fluctuates in different quarters in the area, in different towns. But yes, the trend is the same as the national one, there is an increase in arson, possibly that's also influenced by the fact that we're better at detecting arson and we're becoming increasingly more so as the years go by, and calls that would have been recorded as unknown in the past, would now be recorded as this. [speaker001:] Were you referring or asking whether these occurred in areas of Shropshire, or? No, no, I, I wa I was actually referring to the, the nature of, and the, whether if Shropshire was the same as the national. [speaker009:] Chairman having detected the arsons, I wonder if the Chief Officer knew whether a study had ever been done on the background of those people generally, nationally who er, caused that scene and whether any steps would be f if they were confined to certain people with certain backgrounds, or certain part of histories, whether anything could be brought to bear? [George:] Yes, erm, a great deal of work has been done in the United States on this trend, in particular by juvenile fire setters as they refer to them. There's been a more limited but still a fairly substantial amount of work done in this country, and there has been nothing at all, we've had done locally. Recently, I met with er, the probation people from Social Services to discuss exactly what Major has asked about, which is follow up on juvenile fire setters, and find out if there's any way in which we can modify their behaviour. And in the past, the, the nearest we've got to that is taking them along to a fire station and telling them what sort of people we are, that has been proved in many cases to be counterproductive, because it's actually an incentive if you wish to set fires from other districts than this. So what we're trying to do is approach this in a professional way, and we're drawing on the national and the international experience and working together with Social Services to try and determine a sensible policy. And I have to say that we're talking about a limited number of people, that even if you deter half a dozen young fire setters in a year, you'd probably made a fairly substantial impact in Shropshire. So we're at that very early stage that we are working directly with Social Services, and also in another area with education, for the same reason. [speaker001:] Yes, okay, could we ask Mr Chairman, on this particular thing on this arson business in one thing that we did express concern of were a number of years that are invariably are started we've called in to do the research into this and the investigation, so ar does this add now the fact that you're more sophisticated, does it now mean that your having more staff er, devoted to this, because this was a question that whether we should do it, or whether the police should be doing it? Is it, er, er, having an impact on us, on our standing? [George:] Yes, I think the answer to that has to be certainly it does. Really to investigate even to analyze the statistics takes time. To produce these statistics in the way we now produce them takes time. To break them down into calls by type of station or something as simple as that. [speaker001:] Yes, yes, I, I accept that, but it [George:] To analyze the statistics and look for meaningful trends obviously takes staff time. [speaker001:] But this, this won't be a er, uniformed staff, this will be, I presume, difference between uniformed staff and building staff. [George:] No, they input that the information's come by from non-uniformed staff, but the analysis is always done by uniformed staff who are able to identify the trends, and who understand what the figures mean. So yes it does have an impact, and if we investigate fires to a level which would allow us to identify trends and patterns then that will. [speaker002:] Okay, move on paper G, sorry no, am I right, no we're not. Fire service S S A, five point four. [speaker001:] No, we haven't done that yet. [speaker002:] No, I'm sorry, in view sorry I'm [speaker001:] keep is it, my fault [speaker002:] [clears throat] Paper G, fire's special interest [speaker009:] On page two on the twenty sixth of November, I don't think er, it does, it doesn't tell the full story does it? Nor does the picture book that's just passed by. [speaker002:] Page, page three [speaker009:] The child, the child was, the child was dead. [speaker001:] What? [speaker002:] What, which one are we looking at? [speaker009:] We're looking at paper G, Chairman. [speaker002:] But page, you said page two? [speaker009:] Page three I said, item on the twenty sixth of November. [speaker002:] Page three. [speaker009:] Ninety three.... [speaker002:] Yes, [speaker009:] I just asked in, to give it in a note actually. [speaker001:] [clears throat] I understand what Major is saying. Is he saying that this is incorrect? You located the child on the first floor No, no exactly. and then conveyed to hospital. I haven't got a clue. Well,res rescue does, rescue does, does er, conjure up in the mind that the person rescued was alive. But the Fire Service don't declare who's dead and alive, and they've got very good personnel. [speaker009:] Alright, alright, I'm just telling you then. [speaker001:] Perhaps this is something, I was just going to say that, until someone is actually certified dead by your doctor, they're not regarded as dead and so that's what, what's happened [speaker009:] Well I think the Committee should note that there was a fatality at that, at that incident.... [speaker001:] Can we note that Mr Chairman? [speaker002:] Yes, we'll note it, erm,, the fatality w when they are incoming, it could happen any time after six months, after twelve months,. Any other point?... It's fairly up to date, sixteenth of December, paper H, road traffic accidents. [speaker001:] I couldn't understand this one Chairman. No it takes a bit of conjuring out, yes Yes [speaker002:] Oh, your computer played up, yes, yes, George [George:] I must apologize for this one, it's hard for me sometimes to understand it as well. Erm, the one, two, three and four refer to quarters, it seems a strange way to do it, and I apologize for that. The three columns below actually relate to the categories, persons extricated, services omitted, and services. So if you move the key up alongside those three columns, does it make sense? But as I say, I do apologize for that, it's unnecessarily complicated. There, the, the graph illustrates what's in the table below. Stick to the graph itself, if you ignore the rest of it, the graph's actually good. [speaker001:] What do no services mean? [George:] Well it's where we're called out, probably with the initial belief that somebody is trapped, and the person's either released before we arrive there, or, you know, [speaker001:] So we do nothing, but turn back and go back? [George:] Well, very often what is, we do is make the vehicle safe, er, by isolating the battery and so on, we may warn about petrol. But in general it just means that we've arrived, we've discovered that nobody's trapped, and we go away. [speaker001:] But where, then can you explain what the difference is with people extricated in the R T A services only then. [George:] Well services only is walking down the road disconnecting the battery, or something similar. So we, we have three categories, we don't do anything at all, we do something fairly menial like washing away petrol or disconnecting batteries, or we rescue people. [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Yes Councillor? [Jennifer:] Er, Chairman, yes, I wanted to make a comment and ask a question. And I'll, I think I can, I have it on, on this right and road traffic accidents, may perhaps cover any traffic accidents namely if a plane crashes in the other night, erm, last Saturday night. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] A plane crash [Jennifer:] The plane crashed completely. Erm, I would like to particularly compliment the Fire Service on the magnificent job they were doing there, in, in the most appalling conditions. It was very, very difficult for them, they had to come and they had to find the, the actual crash, and it was an appalling position to get to, erm, the efficiency was splendid. Erm, my, my question particularly is, does this also come under sort of, traffic accidents? Well we don't get any extra money out of Standard Spending Assessment. Because it's absolutely disgraceful. I mean it was a very big operation, there could have been people alive in that plane, but er, as it happened, I, I think tragically they were both dead, but I mean, but people didn't know that. Erm, and I, I think it's quite beyond belief that these sort of accidents as well as the major road accidents aren't taken into consideration for our S S A, and particularly in a county like Shropshire, where there's very little but grain in a lot of places, and that erm, money has to be found But, I would, I would really like to hear what the Officer [speaker002:] Yes it's very unfortunate, there is an item on that, on five point four, you know,re regarding that er, [Jennifer:] Yes, I saw that there was on, on this the S S A. I saw that afterwards, I rather wanted to hang it on this so's I could put in my comment about the plane [speaker002:] Yes, yes, that's right, I appreciate it, yes. An aircraft is classified as a road traffic accident? [Jennifer:] Well it's traffic [George:] Well I mean, the, the the irony is, if you look in the Brigade's statistics chart, the one that's attached to that one, [clears throat] the aeroplane crash would come under special service calls other so it's a miscellaneous column, so it's not even a road accident, it's some other. [Jennifer:] And this one, [speaker001:] Like opening a lock of a door of somebody's house they can't get in? [speaker002:] We have some photographs by the way of the er, aircraft, that can be sent round er [speaker001:] Care carefully sifted. [speaker002:] yes, erm [speaker001:] Yes Mr Chairman, I er,... Mrs qui quite rightly said we can congratulate the Fire Service on the way they dealt with that plane crash, and er, we're all sorry that it happened. Erm, could I sort of use that as a lever, to remind people on the yellow sheets that we forgot about, and that was the last one, the sixteenth of December, and er, I think that's, that's an element of personal er, commitment to the Fire Service which is so divided. Which er, which we all, who went to the, the particular er, er occasion when we went past it on our way from the church to the reception we saw it going on. We all know what was happening, and er, and we, we, I personally would like to make sure that er, fire fighter valiance is, is congratulated in this Committee too, because there was extreme bravery on that occasion. Hear, hear. [speaker002:] I've no doubt in time, that that report will be coming before the Committee regarding that. [George:] I also intend to recommend for a, you know, a non-fire service humanitarian award. At least that was something that was done out with the normal course of duty, so like I think. [speaker002:] Yes Colonel? [speaker010:] I, I, I, I don't think we should pass too lightly over what Mrs has said, it does seem extraordinary in that, er, someone who's locked out of their house, and the fire service comes along and opens the door for them comes under office, and mains and miscellaneous, and then a major, er, a plane crash is also classified like that. I, I, I don't know if we can work with Mr through the A C C that, that his classifications, it's, it's, it's a more major incident than some of the, some that are shown. And, I, there ought to be another column really within this, for these, for these sort of things, and it certainly should be, be er, included for the er, Standard Spending Assessment, for the erm [speaker002:] If somebody had put a match to it, it up there you see, it would then come under S S A, [speaker010:] Some, sorry? [speaker002:] Somebody would've put a match to it and set it on fire, we would have got money for going to deal with it. [speaker010:] Yes, so I wondered whether if, I think we should take that up er, it does seem extraordinary that a big thing like that is, is sort of put in the odds and ends column. [speaker002:] Yes, it is a crazy situation.... [speaker001:] Can I just ask, would it be different if it had been a military aircraft? [George:] It would have been a great deal more difficult because military aircraft use more volatile fuel, and they tend to be armed, they tend to be carrying things that civil aircraft don't normally carry, so yes, it would've been much more difficult. Of course, the, the speeds would've been higher as well. [speaker001:] And you probably wouldn't have been allowed to get near part of it. Yes, but, would, would it have still have been something which we wouldn't have got any money for? [speaker002:] Oh absolutely yes, unless it had gone on fire. If it had gone on fire, we'd have rescued it. [George:] It probably would've, military aircraft tend to burst into flames more easily than civil aircraft, it is true to say. [speaker010:] Can we keep nibbling at this Chairman, can a letter be written to say that we're, we're rather concerned about this methodology, and psychology of this? [speaker002:] We are nibbling, we're constantly nibbling, we nibbled at the last time, and Councillor on our behalf has nibbled at it as well, erm, a report, erm Yes, we, I mean we have [speaker010:] Well can we go again, because, and use this as an, as an example? [speaker001:] It will take quite big headed advice, that is, as well as familiar. [speaker010:] Well can we go again, because, by we're having a wail, perhaps one day we'll get through to somebody? [speaker002:] Yes, and I've no doubt that our representative on the A C C will take it up as well again. [speaker001:] Well he wants to let, And let us, well that's right, I mean that's partly covered by erm, by in the sense that whilst as far as this year's concerned, erm, it's too late for that, but then if the government have agreed to look at, look at special service calls again for next year. Because I think incidents such as this we move to help bring pressure to bear on er, But Mr wants a letter before, to pave his way, beforehand, the letter's to go to the appropriate people on the board meeting. [George:] I think it's probably worth mentioning on that similar context following Mr 's comments about the false alarms, that the more successful we are at reducing those, the more that impacts on our budget because they take out for S S A, unlike road accidents. So the more successful that we're reducing them and road accidents, then we automatically reduce our S S A. [speaker002:] It's a crazy, crazy method isn't it? [speaker010:] Well, can a letter be written on this Chairman? [speaker001:] Yes, so that Mr will have some backup. Teddie, are you taking five, four, eight for this behind? [speaker002:] Well I'll, we'll, we'll come to it, yes, it, it's immediately after this. We erm, we have some photographs of w which are rather horrendous actually, of R T As. Now, I've discussed with the Chief Fire Officer whether members of this Committee should be allowed to look at them. I mean I think that it's erm... a good idea for members to see what firemen and I'm thinking in particular really of fire fight fighters I shouldn't say firemen, fire fighters, we've got ladies, erm, who are retained and can be at their du place of work one minute, and twenty minutes afterwards they've got to face up to ho horrendous sights, erm, it must have a tr traumatic effect on them. Er, and I think it's a good idea that you, if you want to have a look at these photographs, look at them, if you're squeamish at all, don't look at them. Erm, the Chief Fire Officer will enlarge on what I've been saying. [George:] Erm, if I could say that, we show you lots and lots of photographs of bits of squashed metal, that doesn't actually mean very much, and I think Mr more than anybody round here will with that. The impact that it has on these people particularly as the Chair said, the retained service, can be quite profound because they, unlike the whole time firemen can be catapulted from being a joiner one minute into being a rescue operator the next minute. And, road accidents, we talk about them a lot, and we've discussed about charging for them, or whether we shouldn't and all the rest of it, they aren't about bits of squashed metal, they're about people. And these picture, they're two or three incidents that we've had recently, they are fairly horrible. If you've got any sensitivities at all don't look at them please, but if you wish to, they'll give you an indication of the kind of thing that your fire fighters have been facing over the last three or four months. These are all recent incidents, so I mean I really would reinforce that, don't look at them if you're in any way squeamish, because they're not, they're quite unpleasant. They're not meant to be crude or sensationalist, they give you an idea of the kind of thing that your fire fighters face on a regular basis. [speaker002:] Right we'll move on to five point four. Fire Service S S A, which we've talked to at some length already. Councillor? [speaker007:] Can I ju ju just raise a point where it refers to the fact that the S S A is going to be looked at again next year. Erm, the agency has considered a paper on this as is referred to in the final paragraph, what it's basically suggesting to the Department of the Environment and the Home Office is, is that a formula is based upon the supply factors er, such as the, the number of fire stations and standard crew levels etcetera. Now, with any, I freely admit, as I'm sure we all do, that, that there's no formula in this that's going to be perfect, but having seen some preliminary information on the work the A C C is, is pushing at the moment, it does unfortunately have a detrimental impact on, on our own situation here in Shropshire. With the report erm, I have circulated copies to each of the group's spokesmen, there was a couple of charts which indicate what the current situation is with er, spending as against S S A, and if the Home Office move to er, a fir what they call a fire station based S S A, what the position would be. And on the basis of those graphs it does look as if our situation worsens. So I think we've got to be very careful erm, and I want to know which way to go with this. But I'm very concerned obviously as a representative of Shropshire on that Committee, I don't really want to support something which at the end of the day is going to have a detrimental impact on our own service here. Now I'm wondering how easy or whether there's any mileage in actually having a report coming to our next committee, to actually build on that so that we've actually got something to pull on figures to consider... erm, and if, and it, it is going to detrimentally impact upon us to a greater or lesser extent, then, then obviously it's helpful to me. But I think it's also useful for the Committee to intimate comments on, on where it sees areas to be looked at, like special service calls, so on and so forth. I don't think anybody can agree, there is, there is perhaps a better way of looking at the current formula, but I'm just a little bit concerned having read this report and seen the purpose, about the way that er, the A C C are, are pressing for the [speaker002:] We, we. I, we're just about the middle of the road with it er, [speaker007:] Yes, yes, I mean this year, with the formula obviously, because the number of fire calls has dropped, it impacts upon er, as I say that, I don't know whether the actual, the cost, the differential between the number of calls that have dropped and the drop in the S S A, whether it's comparable, and I don't suppose they've got a measure of the drop, in S S A terms it's far greater than the actual marginal costs of er, not attending those er, extra, extra fire calls. [George:] And it, yes, it hits, and I mean that's, that's purely off the top of my head, that it certainly is, we haven't unlighted any detail. It's probably the, the simplest illustration is to say that over the last three or four years, we've moved from being well below S S A to nine point four percent above S S A, now nothing's changed other than that we've got a slight decrease in the number of calls over this last two years. Our Brigade hasn't got dramatically larger, nothing dramatic has changed. All that's changed is the way the formula's been applied, and the number of calls that counts towards the formula. So one minute we're, by S S A terms, a frugal authority, and now we're a bit of a substantial overspender. [speaker007:] The policy's to be welcomed in the fact that we're actually attending er, less and less calls. But obviously er, as the Chief says, it has impacts on our S S A, so really we need, in money terms, to be able to give er, a relatively high value of call out. That's not to add that the existing formula is at fault. The difficulty is if we move to something, er, which is supply based as is being suggested, then it could impact even, even greater and so there's no perfect er, system for this, but there's got to be a better way. [George:] Yes, it's, it's possibly worth mentioning on that as well that, in comparison with the supply based, I mean the existing system is demand based, which is silly, because we have to have fire stations there even if they never go out, if they go out twice a year, we still have to have a fire station in loco, but with the demand based model that's illustrated in A C C based initiative, it's based on existing supply, and this authority has a fairly frugal level of supply in comparison with some other authorities, so what happens is that if you apply it to existing supply then we come out quite badly. And I think until reviews of the standards of fire cover are applied on a uniform basis across the country, the more uniform basis than they currently are, then the figures will always be the problem. [speaker002:] Okay,th we will present them. [speaker001:] the next meeting at branch to try and er, get of er, what potentially we're looking at. [speaker002:] Okay [speaker001:] Yep [speaker002:] We move on. Fire Service Pension Scheme, five point five. [speaker001:] Okay Chair, that's just a note that it er, it's a matter we've raised with this Committee on several occasions in the past, and getting close I think to being able to present some detailed figures as to the likely costs in future, of firemen's pension sch scheme to Shropshire County Council. [speaker002:] It's a bit worrying isn't it? [speaker001:] Very, very. What happened to the reorganization?... No, well I should think we've got to think about it. Yes. [George:] Speaking entirely selfishly, it's extremely worrying. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The police have a similar problem, erm, but not, not as bad as we have. Oh no, it's a lot bigger, it's a lot worse, well there's a lot more of them. Well, there's a lot more here. [George:] It's early retirement now, I suppose. [speaker002:] I beg your pardon? [George:] It's early retirement. [speaker002:] Well, yes, that does [speaker007:] It has had an effect on us, but it's relatively limited. [speaker001:] But the basic, but the basic problem is the way it was set up in the first place, An unfunded scheme it's an unfunded scheme, it, it just simply has ongoing revenue, on an an annual basis. That's right And if you have an increase in, in one year and the situation then throws it all out of kilter. It doesn't have enough money coming in to pay for it. It's as simple as that. [George:] It was a wonderful scheme for thirty years, it's got lots and lots of money, but we never seem to put any in. For thirty years onwards it's a dreadful scheme. [speaker001:] As Mr is hinting on the paper. [speaker007:] I mean unfortunately the authority in days gone by has benefited from the scheme in the sense that the extra, extra money in service in truth, the revenue was there, erm, the chickens have come home to roost in the sense that it's, the tables have turned the other way, and I mean, gone are the days where, when we're least worried out that impact that, that, that much more of our er, of our budget. [speaker001:] The financial advisers of those days were probably the people who taught the ones who have been professional schemes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay [speaker001:] Right, sorry, that was a nasty remark. In deference to the first thirty years, as the man says, [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Five point seven, sorry, five point six, paper I... Review of Fire Safety, yes, please if you would erm, [George:] Right, Chair, P A G asked for two reports to be produced as part of the budget process, looking in more detail at the budget, and the two specific reports that were asked for, were fire safety and trimming. We've looked very closely at fire safety as it's currently existing, and within out current statutory and discretionary responsibilities. And we've attempted to cost out the work that's done against the resources. The caveat that we've put against the whole report is that there are something in the region of half a dozen major government initiated reviews into fire safety in this country. By the National Audit Office, the Audit Commission itself, the Home Office, the D T I under deregulation and all the rest of it. There are likely to be very, very substantial changes in the legislation itself and the way in which it's enforced. So in the medium term, the short to medium term I think we need to base what we're doing very much on existing establishments and existing workloads. That's not to say that we stop looking at it, and we'll be looking in more and more detail at the workloads, matched up against the resources, as we get better information. This Brigade is probably if not the only conservative one, one of a tiny number in the country, that don't computerize their information systems for fire safety. We never had had them, and we've been criticized recently by the Inspector, because of that. We're now attempting to install, or produce those systems so that we have better information. Because as you can imagine in fire stations there's a great deal of number crunching, there's a lot of inspections, there's a lot of work that's done. It's very difficult to analyze that using manual systems. Erm, so looking though it, the, the kind of, the only really important points, I think are that, er, to carry out statutory and non-statutory work. Most of non-statutory work is giving advice to people like control, and others, which may not be purely statutory in the sense that is, but the major difference is there's a time when it's imposed on when we have to do it. Whereas the Fire Precautions Act just says we have to do it, but it doesn't say when. And that creates fairly major problems for us. Erm, looking through the rest of the paper, there's a mistake in paragraph three, where it says cost of inspections was six hundred and fifty hundred, that should be six hundred and fifty thousand. Er, looking through the officer workload ratios in paragraph four, it shows that using what are in honesty fairly crude Home Office measures, we're really quite well to the national average, that we carry out approximately four hundred and thirty three inspections per officer in a year as opposed to the expected four hundred and eighty two. Erm, again we utilize ninety one point nine two percent of the available inspecting officers' time for inspections, rather than the national average of eighty four point three nine percent. I mean I, they look reasonable. All I can say to you, they're fairly crude measurements anyway. Er, looking on w there's a slight warning I think there about,th the decision talks about possible reductions by increasing intra-. That means that we are locked into issuing fire certificates since we rely on the and it imposes a marked official erm, performance target on us, we can't afford to let the numbers of inspections of supported defences drop, so that means that we've got to find money from elsewhere in the budget. Looking to, I've referred to the possible changes and the recommendations really say that, at present there's insufficient information and it's against a background of very dramatic future changes in fire safety. And I would say to you that really there's little point in making any major changes there until you, you're able to assess it properly. [speaker002:] Major you signifying. [speaker009:] Thank you Chairman, I've got three questions Chairman for the Chief Fire Officer. They refer to the appendix A, attached. Firstly on the second page, number fifty eight, the Education Act in the middle of page one nine four four, refers to schools used and maintained by the local authority. Does that exempt schools that are not maintained by the local authority? That's the first one. [George:] Yes, yes, it's covered by the note underneath, where it says [reading] that independent schools receive inspections and advice as and when requested by the D O E []. [speaker009:] I see, you are requested by the D O E? [George:] Yes. [speaker009:] Second question Chairman, er, and several of the, of the Acts er, they provide er advisory, advisory to the licensing authorities, advisory to district councils, with example pet shops, advisory to district councils, does that mean that they on I can only er, reckon that they think that places probably expect it if they're asked to do it by the District Council. [George:] Effectively yes, there is [speaker009:] If the District Council were slack and didn't ask them to do it, we, we have no guarantee that er, that the premises that I'm in are, are safe. [George:] Yes, effectively. The best illustration is the Building Acts. Erm, when an application is received for building approval by a District Council, they consult the Fire Authority but there's no specific obligation on us to give detailed advice. In the past we gave very detailed advice, and the legislation has now been changed to say that we merely identify any shortcomings or failings in the application. That's purely advisory. But the thing is that there's time limits imposed on the building application, so that time limit is therefore transferred to us. [speaker009:] Yes. [George:] So, but, but basically the answer to your question is, if we weren't asked then there's no requirement for us to give the information. [speaker009:] No, so we don't know we're really safe in some premises, because the District Council may not have asked. The final question Chairman, there's a lot of er, facts here with no remarks against them under the premises and involvement like here on page three, number fifty nine, Mental Health Act, the National Assistance Act, Health and Safety at Work Act, it doesn't tell us the type of premises or what in so I say, well what involvement do we have with the Mental Heath Act for example? [speaker001:] Yes [George:] Very, very varied. Erm, purely non-specific. Under the Mental Health Act, and off the top of my head, I'd say we certainly cover places like psychiatric hospitals, erm, residential institutions and all the rest of it. And again it's on the basis of giving advice as to what standards of fire safety are recommended. [speaker009:] So our, so our safety in outside premises does, not only we, we cannot blame it on our fire service, we can blame it on another agencies, if something ever went wrong? [George:] Oh indeed, I mean a great many of them we have no responsibility at all for, we merely give advice when requested. The Health and Safety at Work Act, that's one line with nothing decided, that covers a vast array of tenants and individuals and regulations. [speaker009:] And having given that advice to the pet shop, does it have to be complied with? [George:] No, it's purely advisory, it, it depends, depending on which piece of legislation, it depends upon the regulatory bodies, and in most cases that tends to be the District Councils, but it's Things are not as safe as I thought they were. Well, registration of children's homes. We give advice on suitable tenders, it's not up to us to make sure that they're enforced. It's up to Social Services, and Social Services may choose, although I have got to say it's unlikely, to register a children's or an elderly person's home despite the fact that we've given advice that they shouldn't. But I think we'll update not so much is over public authorities would probably take your advice, but I'm thinking of people who are not public authorities who might in a way suffer, that your advice may cause them some expense, and they might choose to delay it, and well I am guilty we can't afford to do that this year, so it never gets done. [speaker001:] No but I mean let's be fair about these though, be fair to them, and in the erm, to see that they carry out your suggestions or advice is with the area local authorities, It, arrange to say that in our homes it's the responsibility of the County Council, or the Social Services Department, so really you're working together. [speaker002:] Councillor, [speaker007:] Yes, thank you Chair, I just wanted to add

[speaker001:] I haven't managed to escape there, I'm glad just to get on the pitch. Now erm, I haven't been to a match lately, but these pictures I've seen, there's still all these fences around to stop people doing that. Erm, what is the situation in our own stadiums? [George:] Well we don't have fences, but erm, we are the regulatory authority but the County Council are the regulatory authority for the sports venues. The Fire Service have the delegated authority for them and the situation in our local sports events is quite adequate. There's work that needs to be done, in most of the major sports grounds, but that's proceeding and there's, if you can imagine that there's, in Shrewsbury for example, a lot of the work which we would want to be done on the grounds have been less than enthusiastic about doing, because they're likely not to be there for very long. But, and I have no concerns about sports ground sale, we've regulated the numbers because they had some concerns about the and that, that itself has caused 's fellow supporters some problems, but we've actually restricted the number of people who can use the sports ground. [speaker001:] Right, so they're game heavy you think? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I wonder if it's free to them [] Only people that the gate can know the christian names of are allowed in. [LAUGHTER] [George:] I have here a comments that there wasn't any point in really restricting the numbers. [speaker001:] I think they'd have three now as well as David. [speaker003:] Councillor? [Jennifer:] I'll, I was just going to say, Chairman, I, I too am very concerned really about the number of premises where it is advisory to the District Councils, or advisory to. Bearing in mind the number of private nursing homes that spring up and erm, er, I mean the sort of privately run places er, presumably the local authorities have to give them a licence to run, but is there no way that it, can the Fire Service, can our officers go and make an inspection? Clearly they have no power to do so, even if somebody asks them to, somebody from outside for instance, erm, and, and also when they do get a fire certificate, is there a display for it? Or stuck in the back of an office, or, or could they have something sort of glossy like the half kingdom Tourist Board stars, that they can put on their windows, [clears throat] to let people know that at least that particular nursing home or whatever establishment it is, has been duly inspected by our Fire Services? I mean, otherwise one assumes simply that people don't know. [George:] Mm, well th the answer to the first question is that, no we don't have any authority to enter premises like that, where we haven't been invited unless somebody has identified a potentially dangerous condition. Section ten of the Fire Precautions Act gives me the power to inspect any premises where we believe there is a threat to life, other than domestic premises. And there are certain circumstances in which we can do that. It also gives me the power to prohibit or restrict the use of those premises until those conditions are alleviated. In that document, there is a very strong reference to the fact that that power should be either restrictive or removed and that there should be a right of appeal against it, which would effectively prevent us from using it. In terms of nursing homes, we don't issue fire certificates anyway, we only issue certificates to offices, shops, building premises because they were under the Act, Hotels and Factories. So a nursing home, hospital and school, residential or otherwise, is never certificated, and any advice that we give is exactly that. It's not mandatory. [Jennifer:] That surely is [clears throat] is, is of quite concern to people in some way registering whether a place is considered safe or not. [George:] It's through Social Services or the Area Health Authority. [speaker001:] That is there responsibility? [George:] To keep the place from the Fire Authority as from others. [speaker001:] Yes, mm Yes, but they've got to have a, you, you've got to have a, you've got Leaving, leaving, leaving aside their er,ob sorry Chairman. [speaker003:] Yes, I'll come back to you, sorry. [speaker001:] just mention what I've heard, the only statutory job he could do, is apply his licence in. Is the Fire Officer given every individual case where they apply for a licence over an old people's home, and er, this sort of thing? Oh yes. And can't you keep it, keep the Fire Officer when the home's licence er, if they don't carry out statutory duties as required? [George:] We, we, we, I suppose it'd be like two levels, that in the majority of cases we could say we recommend that you do not issue a licence. Social Services are really a help, we could choose to ignore that, I have to say that I'm not aware of that happening, and I think it's very unlikely. Because it would be a very dangerous thing for someone to do. The other element is that the county's are so dangerous, and that's actually quite unusual, they're so dangerous that we consider they present a risk and it has to be me that considers it presents a risk to life, and I can either restrict the use of premises, but I can prohibit the use entirely. But as I say, this says that,an that's a relatively new and certainly draconian power, and it's recommended in this document that it's removed. [speaker005:] Please [speaker003:] Yes Colonel [speaker005:] Is this, all these wonderful protection of animals, dogs and horses and so on, and pet shops and so on, do, does the Chief Fire Officer think in his local knowledge, that most of these have been inspected by his officers, or does he get the feeling there, that sometimes the district councils are not asking for these inspections? [George:] It varies a great deal depending on the district council. What I have to say really, is that most of those premises present very little risk at all, and, and I think that any change in the implementation of fire safety legislation should be based in prioritization. Now that's something that's difficult for us to do, because the more dangerous, the more erm, the premises should present the greatest life risk, are not necessarily the ones over which we have strict legislative control. I mean for example hospitals and nursing homes, we have a purely tenuous control over, whereas we have a very rigid control over a signal box on a railway. Now a signal box on a railway presents a fairly limited risk to life and a nursing home presents a fairly dramatic risk. [speaker003:] Yes Jim, or [speaker001:] Chairman, if, if someone doesn't come under the regulations and is operating a business or something of that sort, is there the facility for that body, either the management body or the business to ask voluntarily for you to inspect, with a view to issue a, er, erm, a certificate er, erm of er, safety? There's no [George:] If anybody wants a fire certificate and we had a recent case where a notable local solicitor asked us to issue a fire certificate and we refused, because his premises does not require one, or did not at that point require a fire certificate. Then he subsequently moved one person from the ground floor onto the first floor, which meant that he did require a fire certificate. But if it's not required by law, then I cannot issue, and if people ask for advice we are obliged under Fire Services, the Fire Services Act to give that advice, but what I'm really saying is that with the, the pressure of work on the Fire Safety Department, it's likely that if it's a fairly low risk to life, we'll never get round to it, and that's the honest truth. [speaker001:] That's on your statutory requirement? [George:] Yes [speaker001:] So what you're saying is, that if people er, if people's consciences state I ought to try and do this, but I'm not required by statute to do, the chances is that A, that you, you can't do it anyway, but B you wouldn't have the facilities to do it anyway, as well. [George:] We, we, we will normally get round to people. We do inspect. But we probably don't inspect and give advice to people who'd like us to, because they're not a priority, and we don't have the resources to do that. [speaker003:] A lot of interesting points come out there, haven't they? Cap [George:] If, if, if I could summarize, if you could bear with me by saying that, there is no embracing legislation which covers fire safety, and there is no legislation which actually prioritizes it. What we have is picking up a ragbag of stable door legislation, that came out of other Acts, and that's why we have offices, shops and railway premises from the Oswald Acts which were neatly tucked in the back of Oswald's Act. Hotels which were in the first days of making order, and factories which came from the old Factories Act. And the cost, or the potential cost of designating particular, like hospitals and similar premises is so prohibitive that the government has chosen never to implement the designating orders for them. And I hasten to say it, governments of all persuasions assume it must be being done. [speaker003:] Someone move the recommendation? [speaker001:] I will Yes [speaker003:] Five point seven, paper J, Fire and Rescue Service Training. [George:] Different board is the outcome of the P A G inspection? [speaker001:] Yes, it seems it I don't know, Mr Chairman, I think you've always been very keen on this trend and supported it fully. And, I, I will support this number seven, seven with recommendations. Thank you there [speaker003:] We are moving on reasonably well on this issue. [speaker001:] Yes, well we've got to [speaker003:] Reasonably well, yes, reasonably well [George:] Then I hesitate to say that there's probably a more complex issue now even than the Fire Station, erm,... the figures which are given incidentally are the original estimate there, because that was what was available to us at the time. They have now been varied slightly but they make very little difference. A question that's already been asked of me, on appendix C, up at employee at the largest single figure there is a hundred and thirty seven thousand eight hundred. That's not a way of fudging some other cost, the retained fire fighters are recompensed when we provide training for them, because they normally have to lose work or whatever. They are very, very expensive to train because of that. We train whole-time fire fighters cheaply, but we pay the retained people compensation for loss of earnings. That figure is the majority, the majority of that figure is compensation for loss of earnings. That's the trouble, you get cheap service from retained personnel, but they're incredibly expensive to train. [speaker001:] But absolutely essential. That's the only time you pay loss of earnings? [George:] Yes [speaker001:] If they've taken off for a fire two days or something? They're going to get paid then. [George:] We pay them for attending fires. The only other time they're paid compensation for loss of earnings, is when they're sick as a result of an injury received on duty, you know Fire Brigade duty. [speaker003:] Well this recommendation's been moved, seconded? [speaker001:] Yes... [speaker003:] Five point eight, Emergency Planning... Are you going to speak on it or not? The recommendation's here. [speaker001:] Chair, here. [speaker003:] We move [speaker005:] There is one thing, and I think I did take it with you, erm, Mr Chairman, I'm with the erm, I've forgotten what the question on, corporational liberties, the thing that is concentrating many of our minds quite some, but the er, would, would the Chief Fire Officer like to? [speaker003:] Yes, well he s he did take it up with me as a, er, I mean you did take it up [speaker005:] I didn't complain, I didn't complain, I suggested it. [speaker003:] No, but what, what I'm, what I mean, what I said... such as emergency services. Now the emergency services are police, fire, and erm, and ambulance. There's a fourth one actually, but everyone knows who they are So those do cover the police. I mean, if the police and the ambulance service. [speaker005:] Could, could that just be underlined perhaps in, by rephrasing it slightly to emphasise that, because I, I think that [speaker003:] I think we all know what emergency services are [speaker005:] We, we know but [speaker003:] You don't, I see [speaker005:] we, we do, but there's no harm, in view of our knowledge and experiences just to put that phraseology in a little bit bolder. I, I, I, I think Mr Chairman what I, I think I explained to you what my concern was, that we have cases where there's a serious road accident, and erm, and the road is stopped, we have no real authority to turn traffic or divert traffic, but the, the police are the only ones that can, and if we want to get down in, in, into an emergency very quickly. I, I mean it's only by the good will of the police that we can get down there and that,, this is, this is my concern Mr Chairman, in, in theory what I would like, if there was a serious emergency, you'd get a senior officer in here straight away, and I mean he would negate to the police, we have no authority over them, only cooperate with the police. And that's my concern. [speaker003:] Well I, I [speaker005:] I, I, I mean they're, you, you, I mean they're very good, but they do, er a lot are imperfect, a law unto. Oh, oh, I think all it wants is that paragraph rephrasing and with more strongly emphasis but, on the lines on with that. That's all I think Chairman, I don't suppose that er, you'll disagree with that will you? [speaker003:] Well I, I wouldn't disagree with it, but I, but I, the description is perfectly plain [reading] to ensure that effective arrangements are established from liaison between the various departments of the County Council and the appropriate organizations such as the emergency services []. I know what the emergency service is, I'm sure everybody else does. There's a fourth one that keeps cropping up on television but I mean we don't take that into consideration. But it's just police, fire and ambulance services, those are the emergency services, [speaker005:] I can't see what, what the objection is to me making the paragraph stronger. [speaker003:] No and I can't see wh no well I, we made it, I'm not against making it stronger, but I can't understand why this suggestion has been made. [speaker005:] Well because of past experiences, Chairman, that's all. Let's make it strong I'm not criticising anybody, just make it stronger. [speaker001:] Chairman, I, I, I'm really confused now, I mean they've, they've got me, they've got me talking about semantics here which is ridiculous. What we're talking about is the emergency services that sh that responds to the needs of those who are in difficulty or in distress. That's what we're doing and I can't see anything here that prevents er, total cooperation between A the police, B the ambulance service and C the fire services. I agree with you entirely. I think this is er, semantics, and simple nitpicking. The police have never, I mean the Fire Officer will tell me, has there ever been an occasion when the police have not cooperated with the Fire Service in an emergency situation? [George:] No [speaker003:] No, no there's always room for improvement in liaison [speaker005:] Come on we're talking about the job, the job description, really they're there to please, er, er, this is written by one, one man and er, or one woman, and we're just saying that the wording could be improved in that one little phraseology, that's all. On the job description. [speaker003:] It was put together by, it was put together by the Chief Fire Officer and the Chief Executive er, not just the Chief Fire Officer. [speaker005:] Right. I'm saying it could be improved, I'm sorry. [speaker003:] Yes Colonel. [speaker005:] Er, most officers would have accepted it and moved on to the next subject. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Paragraph two was current solution to see the sort the place where the advertisers as widely as possible, presumably based on the job description. Here, there's no salaries attached to it at the moment. Erm, do we know how big the department's going to be, because that governs the salary? Where are we in relation to the sort of catch twenty two situation on this? [George:] The, the salary is stated [speaker003:] I, I'd rather finish with the other question, or, or the made by the Major in the press question, are you, do you want to follow up the, I mean, have a vote on this if you want to? [speaker005:] No [speaker003:] Or is, or do you think the wording is suitable, or do you not? [speaker005:] The wording's suitable. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] I, I, I'm dead easy, I mean really it's a bit pedantic being pathetic. Leave it as it is, leave it as it is [speaker001:] Leave as it is, and move on. [speaker003:] Right now,c yes sorry, well we'll go back now. [George:] The, the post is currently graded at P O five, not P O six. [speaker001:] After the exclusion of the public. Can we discuss after the exclusion of the public. Thank you sir. [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] Clearly er, it's er, again in, in paragraph four, under future budget of er, the services is going to be critical, if you've seen the last couple of years that are defined in the pay, and that's going to continue. As far as the short-term is concerned, er, part of the budget package in the current year, er, the retirement and the, the now proposal was to, to help up the side as regards that. Now it's referred in item one of the introductory paragraph, in the introduction about additional funding, and I just wonder where is the total for this additional funding? Is it from within the Public Protection Committee's overall budget, or is from elsewhere? If so, no. [speaker003:] Well if we're going to start to go into funding, I'd rather this went into... the pink paper session, and that we have our Chief Executives down here to explain that situation. I don't want to discuss this in open committee.... Agreed? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] We'll put it as the last item.... [speaker001:] You have the situation [speaker003:] Personnel, five, point one, sorry, five point one three... is that right, so [speaker001:] Er, five point nine I think Chair. [speaker003:] Five point nine, optimistic, I'm getting terrible these days. [speaker001:] Just a little bit optimistic, straight through to that, [speaker003:] Yes, avoiding, oh yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry. Avoiding, now What Future for Local Emergency Planning, National Conference. Now, I'm, I might have been remiss on this, but we had to do this in a hurry, erm, to get names in, and, but it's been suggested by erm, the leader of the er, Conservative group on, on this Committee, that erm, a, a, member from each should, major group should go, and er, I'm quite, I'm quite inordinate, in favour of this, if we can get erm, bookings there now. I'm, you know [speaker001:] My feeling is Mr Chairman, it is an unpolitical er, erm, we're going [speaker003:] Oh yes, yes [speaker001:] into a new ground and, and er, I think it would be very useful if, if we [speaker003:] yes, yes, I'm quite happy, providing we can get the erm [speaker001:] Erm, I think I, yes Chairman, if, if, if you're prepared to attend that if you're saying that [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Providing that they're not all taken []. [speaker001:] No well that's, that's impractical and all, but [speaker003:] You know it's, yes, yes. [speaker001:] I don't know where it is. [speaker003:] Okay are you all agreed? [speaker001:] Yes, agreed. Are you going? Who's on transport? [LAUGHTER] I don't believe this gentleman. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] We'll check, we'll find out before the end of the meeting. [speaker001:] Thank you for our er, I've got a better one than those [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Five point one oh, annual inspection, am I right now? [speaker001:] Yes, ten We know that Mr Chairman. [speaker003:] Five point ten, yes. Erm, you're all aware of that? Five point eleven, Fire Safety Week, well that's gone past. It's quite useful [speaker001:] We played on a different part [speaker003:] Five point one, twelve, Brigade Festival at Cowes, an absolutely superb evening in my opinion, but somebody said it was bloody awful. Er, [speaker001:] Well I think it was a marvellous evening. [speaker003:] I think it was [speaker001:] I can think of one c comment Chairman. The, they ran out of er, of carol sheets. [speaker003:] We didn't expect c [speaker001:] It,i I had the initiative in getting a prayer book, er, er, a hymn book from the back which er, after some concentration with the index or something, to er [George:] If you would pardon me on the sheet, it's a shame Mr 's not here, because that was his decision, because of the imposed cut in stationery from last year, we ran out of it [speaker001:] Come on, come on [LAUGHTER] Good for him. [LAUGHTER] So he was sulking in a corner was he? Yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Another criticism that I had was that it was far, far too elaborate and expensive programme, I thought it was a very cheap one. [George:] We printed it ourselves, [speaker003:] Yes, yes [speaker001:] The first one, was [speaker003:] Yes, yes, Councillor. [speaker006:] In spite of a lack of er, sort of er, carol sheets for, for some of us, it really was, as you say, a very enjoyable evening, and I was particularly erm, keen on the, the introduction of Saint Nicolas, and it certainly got smaller children, I think it was er, fantastic, and I certainly haven't enjoyed so er, I'll be back [speaker003:] We diddled them out of er, Christmas presents which, which surprised me. But some of the children there erm, somebody must have been [LAUGHTER] very, very, optimistic [] because we put a lot, a lot of presents in there, but anyway I think it was a superb night, and, and, and the meeting of er, to get together in the fire station afterwards, quite, in the Price Room was very good. Okay. Five point one three, five thirteen, Fire Brigade Long Service and Public Medals Ceremony. Once again a very enjoyable evening, erm, I pushed into something that er, I don't think she really wanted to do initially, but she thoroughly enjoyed it at the end. [Jennifer:] Chairman, she did it er, erm, very nicely, from the local [speaker003:] That's right, that's right. [Jennifer:] The ladies concerned I think were very pleased er, erm, I do I think it's a very good idea, erm, to give a wife's medal and er, with all the medals, and we ought to provide money for them the amount of waiting about they have to do [speaker001:] A very good evening. [Jennifer:] and they never know when [speaker001:] Yes. [Jennifer:] It was a nice, nice gesture. [speaker001:] A well organized evening. [speaker003:] And where the beer did agree eventually, I mean under slight pressure. [LAUGHTER] There's a photograph of her, and I'm quite sure we can give Joan to give to Vera one of those. [speaker001:] Yes, yes thank you. I, I would like to see erm, I don't know whether this is done, but erm, when the official photographs are taken, they're done by erm, newspaper area, so that you get of the Lord Lieutenant, the Chief Officer, and the, the man from that area, and that is sent to the local paper, whether, ah [George:] in fact the local paper actually took photographs on that basis, and they grouped them by [speaker001:] Yes, but erm, but Chairman, er, I don't think I should come up and make myself clear, some local papers were not represented there. Could they in future be sent? Could the photograph, the fire, the fire fighter probably won't think of it, could, could we think it for him, or her. [speaker003:] Yes, we're lucky with the photographer actually, he's not a fire fighter, er, [George:] He is now [speaker003:] He is now, okay. Er, five fourteen, paper L. Don has erm, been seconded to the Home Office for a period of two years. So I think we ought to congratulate him on that. [speaker001:] Yes Hear, hear. [speaker003:] And the other is the retirement of er, Divisional Officer. [speaker001:] Could we just [speaker003:] Twenty nine year service is a long time. [speaker001:] can I be as could we be associated with that? [speaker003:] Oh yes, well I, this is a Committee I'm talking about, not, not just myself, the whole Committee. Erm, when I speak, I speak on behalf of the whole Committee. [speaker001:] A letter will be written to both on that? [speaker003:] Yes, oh yes, yes. Okay. [speaker001:] Chair, in respect of what erm, it's obviously it's er, good for the Authority that Mr is er, obviously, but what will happen to his post, right away, and what, will there be someone employed to actually fill in, I know there will probably be some moving up er,? [George:] Yes, we're interviewing so we're interviewing on Friday for somebody to fill that post. On the dates that you've anticipated if Mr comes back by that time we'll be able to absorb the post, but it's likely that he may move on from this, because it's a fairly substantial move up. In his next, next work when he leaves here he's going to be the Fire Service at the Houses of Parliament, and I'm serious, that will be one of his first major jobs. Not to mention things as trivial as Windsor Castle, and so forth. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You don't sail that far down Will they listen to him, I hope. [George:] You're next authority. [speaker001:] Chairman, he won't have to, it's like this, he won't have to worry as they did when the televisions which caused the last fire in the House of Commons, I mean, set fire to them and er, caused that one. It's quite er, it's quite a recommendation to de Brigade though isn't it Mr Chairman? And quite an honour to the brigade. Pardon? [George:] It's very prestigious, it's very prestigious. [speaker001:] Yes, and I think I thought of a personal note that, because we do get some good, good appointments. As bad as we are. [speaker003:] Okay we'll move on. [speaker001:] No, I, I, I think, it is well done. [speaker003:] Six, Quarterly Report of Chief Trading Standards erm, paper marked M. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] Do you want to s enlarge on it Mr? No [speaker001:] No, no No you're alright Chairman. Can we note this Mr Chairman? [speaker003:] There's quite a lot of useful information in here. I hope you've all read it. [speaker001:] Yes I have, item, paragraph one, Mr Chairman, is right to do with the work that has to be done. [speaker003:] Pardon? Pardon? [speaker001:] Item one on M, Mr Chairman, the right of you with the amount of work that has to be done, and the amount of they're asked for [speaker003:] Oh yes, yes okay. [speaker001:] in growing demand or... [speaker003:] Six point two, deregulation. [Dave:] Chairman, if I could just er, erm, some words that aren't included in this pa paper, I understand that the Deregulation Bill is published on the eighteenth... erm, and presented to Parliament for the first reading, erm, it's still far from clear what's going to be said in it, but erm, it's still widely expected that in fact, on major contentious issues will in fact be the suggestion that sections of Acts of Parliament will, could be revealed by ministerial order rather than go through the parliamentary process again. So it's an important issue er, of principle. The aspect to it is, as I've made clear in, in the, the report I hope,th they'd want to treat each erm, one that comes out of government on it's me merits. Er, I make the point I think that, erm, we should oppose the er, Deregulation Bill if it's based on providing deregulation by Ministers, because I think that's a constitutional point that is of great import, but the, the rest of it erm, are really sets of principles that I hope you'd agree to, subject to amen amendment and dis discussion, because the information that we got is that the consultation period is going to be very tight indeed, and that it might not be able to go through the normal committee procedures in order to put things through erm, with er, proposals in that, er, in that respect. If they're relatively technical, then I, then I'd be grateful if they can be left to the officers, but obviously if there's anything that erm, is political in anyway, big P or small P, then at least we can get in touch with the er, P A G, and if necessary call a meeting in respect Chair. But things are going to move on apace, and we need to, a set of principles the officers can work to, and I've put these down as a broad list, erm, for your consideration. [speaker001:] I propose that Mr Chairman. [speaker003:] All in agreement, [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] to the recommendations. [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] Paper O, [speaker001:] That's purely for information Chairman. [speaker003:] Paper P, genetically modified foods. I think the case is here is that er... could have serious effects. [speaker001:] That, er, Chairman, if I could say the thing that bothers me here is that, it always has done about food, is that we should be keeping up to date with information, all these decisions and all this advice. That seems to me a basic requirement of er, of all the sale of food. Er, it's been coming in gradually over the years, but there's been an awful lot of, of er, resistance by some manufacturers on what they say on their labels, and what they say about what they're selling us, and er, if they're gonna do this, and I'm getting a, a slight suspicion, and I think Mr is, that, that it's got to be done eventually, and we, we have to be able, as a buying public, to understand exactly what we're buying before we actually get it home. A chance to read, and be informed as to what we're buying when we buy it. [Dave:] Chairman, it's always been this Committee's policy over the twenty years, the twenty odd years that I've been here, back here ru runner, that erm, so far as the food side is concerned, er, we should be, our policy should be based on the information, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and letting people make up their own minds. It's not been for us to tell people what they should or shouldn't eat or do anything with, because the, in, in one respect that's a nann nannying attitude from er, whether it's the legislators saying we're not going to approve the right legislation so that you have that information, but on the other hand by manufacturers and others saying you trust us. Well, in the cases we've taken over the odd twenty years against some of the biggest companies in the world indicate that that isn't the er, position. So, as far as the, the erm, erm, report is concerned er, if I've got to make a recommendation, because obviously people have got different views on this one, it would be in fact that we go for total er, information so that people can make up their own minds, and if, and it might be wrong, but they can exercise their own prejudices. And if they want to exercise those prejudices that's a matter for them. Erm, so that, that's the line that er, from a personal point of view I would erm, I would take, but I would obviously want members' views on that one. The other one, could I just correct something on the last line of er, comment at the bottom of the, bottom of page two. It says stock lives, it should be stock lines. [speaker001:] But they are also trying to include the stock live aren't they, in some cases? Not their lives, No, it talks about the life as it's lying in store for instance. Yes, oh yes, yes indeed. Yes [speaker003:] Anybody wish to speak or are you, do you accept the recommendations? [speaker001:] A question if I may? In the er, appendix attached [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] er, there's talk about the er, government waiting for the recommendations from the Food Advisory Committee, when are they due? [Dave:] It's come out too, Chairman, that erm, there's been an, they dis they discussed that the minutes came out, and erm, what the Committee decided shortly was, the Committee felt strongly that, if the criteria for labelling were met, the requirement for labelling declaration should be a statutory one. They did not consider that this could be satisfactorily achieved by other means, such as non-statutory guid such as non-statutory guidelines. Er, based on the evidence which the public consultation produced the Committee considered that the primary concern of consumers was to be able to identify when a gene likely to be a cause of concern to a significant proportion of the population was present in foodstuff. This was reflected in the criteria which the Committee recommended should trigger a labelling declaration. As far as the form of labelling was concerned they believed that what was required was a simple declaration such as contains copies of X genes, in single ingredient foods and foods sold loose, they believe a declaration should form part of or accompanying the name under which food is offered for sale. For pre-packed foods which contain ingredients that contain copied genes, it recommended that a statement should be required to accompany the name of the ingredient in a list of ingredients. If a copied gene is present in an ingredient which was under current rules, it did not need to be listed, the declaration about its presence should nevertheless be made either in the ingredients list or next to the name of the er, food []. And they went on then to consider lack of understanding of consumers about G M technology as a whole, and made recommendations for erm, er, better labelling, and for a erm, information campaign to be launched as well. [speaker001:] But they didn't actually recommend that it should be statutory labelling [Dave:] Yes. The point I'd make, is that the difficulty of enforcement, in that respect. It's, it's one thing legislating, it's a completely different ball game when you are, erm, trying to enfor enforce it, and especially when you're trying to enforce it with ingredients imported from abroad. Well, when I say abroad, I mean from the E C as well. Erm, you can look after your own factories in this country, and you source ingredients, but you won't be able to do that for anything coming ov coming overseas. And the major manufacturers erm, there is a major trade in ingredients, between the multi-nationals as they pass things across. So the theory might not well work out in prac practice. But I honestly can't come up with any solution in that respect, because er, until you've got er multi-national enforcement agencies which no politician is going to agree to, erm, you're not going to solve the pro pro problem there. And if they think that it suits them to shift a factory to the Philippines because there won't be an inspection there, that's what they'll do. [speaker001:] Can you note this Mr Chairman? That's depressing isn't it really? [speaker003:] Very, but there you go. That's life, but we do what we can. And it's a statutory obligation in this country and that's really what you know. Because we can't just accept that, that manufacturers will look after it for us, because as you've, already said by the Chief, they'll move the factory where it [Dave:] I mean, you can even get a situation Chairman, where you'll get some of the big multiples will tell a, will agree specifications with a food manufacturer, but they're not going to be able to check on the ingredients, so even though the, the, the Sainsburys and the Marks and Spencers of this world say we don't want any er,gen genetically modified ingredients going into anything that we're going to buy, there's no way that they can guarantee that before we've even bought any. [speaker003:] Having said that, do we accept the recommendations in this report? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] Authorizations for legal proceeding. [speaker001:] Proposed. Agreed. [speaker003:] Registration of births... deaths and marriages. It's for you Mr [speaker001:] Nothing to add, er, if members have any questions I'll be happy to answer them. [speaker003:] Noted? Charity Youth Committee, marked S.... Do we have a member er, from that Committee? [speaker001:] Yes Chairman, I am following in Major 's shoes, I don't reckon I know a great deal about it yet, and I'm not sure that this erm, er, advisory er, committee is yet actually on the go, but I will go into this. The stumbling block here does seem to be the inability of the Charity Commissioners themselves to keep up with the volume of work. Er, I am, Mr Chairman, I support that fully, because if you write to them it's six months before they'll reply. And you're wondering, I mean I don't think we can expect of the advice of charities now, or very little, you know, and, and they've got to be very, very careful I was meeting the Commissioners Pardon? I was leaving the Commissioners out as far as I could. Yes, yes, yes. It's a very meagre budget Chairman I should think we're getting off very lightly. Yes [speaker003:] . Item nine, motion evenings and Saturday meetings. [speaker001:] I propose that we retain the status quo Chairman. I'll second that I second that [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Are you all in favour of that? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] West Mercia Police Authority, Paper C, now you received this late... [speaker001:] I'd be pleased to answer questions Chairman, and I'm sure Mr will help, help me deal with the budget crisis. [speaker003:] And I shall endeavour to [speaker001:] Well that's all you've got in front of you at the moment, isn't it, the budget Chairman? You have other things as well. [speaker003:] Are there any questions? [speaker001:] Pardon? Are there any questions, I'm asking, yes, I'm waiting for questions. Can I make an observation Mr Chairman, will you take observations as well? [speaker003:] Yes, I'll take observat why, wait a minute. [speaker001:] Yes, erm, on paragraph three erm, the, the last sentence erm, where it says [reading] without direct access to its own balances, the authority may therefore have to make revised precept in ninety four, ninety five [] erm, I understand what's being said there, but any organization needs to actually work within er, a clearly defined budget. Er, the Police Authority last year I think actually had to have an extra nine hundred thousand pounds of spending, the budget was funded by the constituent's authorities, erm, and we've already for next year in fact, made available effectively six hundred thousand pounds worth of extra spending by erm, various means, so I would hope that erm, the authority does use as, as much prudence and restraint in its financial affairs as possible, because of the, the effects on all, all concerned. Yes, Chairman, can I say that erm, when the b the budget's in the process of formulation and we're discussing the question of balances and reserves and how they should be marked for the immediate future, particularly in regard to the way that er, reorganization may take place at police authorities in the very near future, and also those of us who are on this, on, on other committees who've had experience in, and the same sort of thing happening in further education for instance, where immediately the assets, before even the regulations were put on the table, the assets of all these things were, all these er, erm,coll the further education colleges were frozen so we couldn't do anything with them at all as an Authority, and er, actually many of them were taken from us without er, without any question at all. So in the light of that it's per now is a good opportunity to er, make sure that those reserves and balances were available for A, the er, Police Authority should it require it, but B, to those constituent authorities who had helped in the er, build-up of these reserves. Now, what's being said here in that particular sentence, is that there are obviously going to be, or possibly could be occasions when er, the Police Authority has er, an overspend, which is an immediate problem for instance, on pensions, and you've heard the er, Fire Service Chief talking about his problems. They're just the same with the police force, there could be er, er, an increase in police pay, or there could be any, a very large incident which would require planning, if these happen then it has always been the case, if there wasn't the money available then a precept could be put upon us as a local authorities to er, cover that erm, directly. That's no different to what the situation is now, it was there before, the difference is that the banker is different. The banker is not the reserves of the Police Authority, because that has now been transferred to the authority. I should tell you that er, the budget really represents er, an increase in the availability of police resources over the previous years. I'm delighted with that, the budget came out er, much better than I'd hoped it would do, and er, and I, I am sure that we shall see some improvement in the police er, over the next year. Of course there is, there is the possibility, there is definitely going to be a reorganization, we shan't have the same sort of input I don't think, we shan't be allowed to have the same sort of input in a totally undemocratic er, er, authority that's going to be there where the, the governments will er, put er, most of the people on board, where the Home Secretary will decide on the Chairman, er, we don't know what the government regulations are going to say about balances in terms for the new authority. Er, if they say that er, they should be er, a balance or reserve put in by constituent authorities then we will have the money available to do that, if we didn't then they may have frozen the reserves that are already there and asked us to put some more money in as well. I find that is the situation that I've tried to er, guard against with the budget that we've been put in on this occasion, and I hope that answers er, er, Mr but er, I'll answer any other questions that are put up. Thank you very much. Could I say Chairman, in Worcester and Shropshire are in agreement with this budget and er, which has been engineered to a great deal by the Chairman of the Budget and er, we're here to, [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] I don't, I don't mind worked out, but engineered gives a very Regarding paragraph nine Chairman, no doubt you, you would tell us if there's been a response on this, because this does seem a useless step forward er, to increase the number of people at the coalface as it were, and self-financing, and no doubt we shall hear in due course about this. The Authority are pushing as much as they can on the scheme and there's been no response to yesterday. [speaker003:] It's a crazy situation, because when Clarke was the Home Secretary, and he made a, a speech in parliament, we adjourned a meeting of the Authority to listen to him speaking, now we'd already made applications er, to increase the number complete officers by the, getting rid of the superintendents, and Clarke came out with what we'd said, yes, do that, but the Home Office are still saying no you can't. Er, I mean the whole lot separately, [Dave:] Yes, yes, [speaker001:] I mean it's crazy. [Dave:] if I can comment on that Chairman, the erm, the Authority asked for thirty for next month, along with all the other authorities I think in the country, asked for an improvement in the, in the policing the country, and I think people that live in, in Shropshire, and the people that live in other er, parts of the country as well, would have welcomed the increase in the police force this year, but the government decided not to do that. We, we then had this situation where the, er, the Chief Constable ha went to great lengths to er, work out a new establishment for himself, and the senior management, and actually ach chi and er, and preempted it and then asked the er, the Home Office if he could use the money to increase the constables on the beat. We are still waiting for them to agree or not to that. The feeling at the moment is that they are sympathetic towards us, and they don't see any difficulty in that as yet, but no one is prepared to put their hand up and say yes go ahead and spend the money in that way. But the money is in the budget Chairman, I want to make that quite clear, the money is here in, in the West Mercia Police budget to be able to provide sixteen extra policemen immediately. [speaker001:] Police Officers. [Dave:] Policemen immediately that that is given to us by the Home Office. [speaker001:] I hope the Authority unanimously do support it. Yes, I think Chairman, you ought to ask your Committee to note paragraph six, I think that's quite important and worthy of note.... [speaker003:] Because we employ a lot of [speaker001:] Can I record we've received this here Mr Chairman? [speaker003:] Move the reports received? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Now it is recommended that we in section nine and four A, in brackets four, someone move.... [tape turned off] [speaker001:] Chairman, can he just report to us? [speaker003:] Right, [Dave:] Chairman, if we can just go through this briefly. Erm, number thirty six. Erm, it contains access to four, five and they'll be submitted after discussion at this particular Committee, to Policy Planning or the Policy Resources Committee. As we've made perfectly clear in the last discussion we've just had, no final decisions on the implementation of any variations will be taken until Council meets on the twenty fifth of February. This booklet was distributed just before met, so in fact er, paragraph two does say at the moment that in our new recommended programme there isn't, well in fact they did agree those recommendations. In addition though, and we come on to them in a second, it asks for further reductions to be added to that if possible. But the provisional guid the guideline which was set by Policy and Resources in the first instance, was just for this Committee to identify seventy thousand pounds' worth of reductions. Those reductions were those identified in paragraph three and perhaps I do need to point out in fact that according to the report in Policy and Resources Committee, the use of carry forwards from the registration service of twenty thousand pounds in fact needs to be replicated across all three years. Now quite clearly that has er, implications on the registration service and believe the County Secretary will talk about that at some future point. Erm, paragraph four erm, outlines... there is a gap after these new guidelines of six hundred and seventy one thousand, and to bridge that gap, the P and R asked that er, the Fire and Rescue Service identify a hundred thousand pounds of sur of reductions from its budget. The audition which is the additional item includes moves at Policy and Resources Committee that they asked all committees to expose further reductions if possible to help close this gap of six hundred and seventy one thousand pounds. Just find it on the kind of introduction. The other guideline which was issued was namely that of capital, where the a accepted the general guidelines which appeared in the county papers and as far as this Committee was concerned, would mean the general acceptance of all those items which appear in that the first year of that capital programme, subject to the proviso that the revenue contemplated and the benefits of the capital programme will be considered by Policy Panel in its forthcoming meeting. As far as the introduction is concerned I have nothing more to say. I am, unless there are any questions, can we not then five, move on to number five? [speaker001:] Er, one question if I may Chair? Erm, I note that on paper R earlier, we er, approved the recommendation to ask Resources Management sub-committee to approve the release of three thousand of registration service carry forward monies, and we're now being asked to approve our budget next year, which er, also reduces twenty thousand for registration service. Can we be told please exactly what the er, balancing hand of carry forwards shown on the right estimates, the twenty three thousand consists of? Are they, what, what are those are registration services? [Dave:] That, the thirty three thousand includes twenty three thousand of the registration services carry forwards, but it does not take into account the three thousand which have just been requested here. So that would reduce it down to twenty. [speaker001:] I just want to make sure we have the money now. [Dave:] If you, if you like, I could speak now Chair? [speaker003:] Yes [Dave:] Er, naturally we're disappointed you're proposing to take er, twenty thousand of our twenty three thousand carry forwards in the registration service. The problem is as Mr has said, if that is expected to be replicated across future years, this would represent a ten percent reduction in the statutory service, er, which is only partly under control of this Committee, with mixed responsibilities with the Registrar General. Seventy percent of the expenditure is on staff who you do not employ and cannot dismiss, a large part of the income, or all the income is through the fees that are set na nationally by the government. You have very little room for manoeuvre within this service, and the Registrar General has reserve powers to impose services on you, and I would have to advice you it would be virtually, or I would have to say it would be impossible to achieve that ongoing reduction in future years.... Erm, does the Chair wish er, me to reach section by section, or do you wish to take the bookings as they are Chairman? [speaker003:] Well I think we've got to take it section by section. [Dave:] In that case the, the white page which isn't numbered at the back of page three, is the revised estimate, and shows the variations as outlined there. Erm, the only variations which are actually going outside the Committee control are as a result of the internal market variations which are going on down. Plus of course the growth in the Firemen's Pension Scheme of thirty one thousand in the current financial year, rising in future years. Otherwise the Committee services are containing their budgets within original cash limits.... If there are no questions on the revised estimates Chair, then the, the base budget for ninety three, ninety four are those outlined on the green pages, identified it certain service by service. It's on these figures which in effect any Committee reductions will be made. I have nothing further to say on the green pages. Do members have any questions?... Okay, does anybody [speaker001:] Before, before you go on, you say that the twenty thousand can't be rep replicated in income registration column, does that show, how would show in here then? [Dave:] It doesn't show, it doesn't show in here, no. [speaker001:] If the registration service was erm, asked to ma to reduce its budgets for ninety four, five and future years, by twenty thousand, it could do it in to three, four, five because it would bring forward twenty thousand pounds worth of carry forwards. However in five, six, its net expenditure would reduce to erm, two hundred and twelve thousand pounds. And from what County Secretary's just said, we would be unable to identify reductions in statutory service to live within that cash and [Dave:] The salmon pages then Chair, are those items which have been put forward to achieve the guidelines set by Policy and Resources Committee. In additions, I would remind members of the request from Policy and Resources to try and identify wherever possible further savings, in aid of the six hundred and seventy one thousand pound gap which currently exists between budget proposals and the expected figures.... [speaker003:] Any, yes Mr A couple of comments on that Chair, the first one, on the reduction in carry forwards, my understanding is that, in fact it's quite amusing in some ways, because this, this is something I was accused of as Chair of Resources Management during my year. Er, what in fact this Committee is doing, is saying that at one of the sections that makes up part of it, you happen to have carry forwards spare from last year, therefore use them because we can't identify anything else in budget savings for this, next year. Erm, that isn't necessarily the same as saying by the way your section will have to repeat that saving in future years. I think it's quite legitimate for this Committee to take that twenty thousand because it's there, and to say to itself, post budget we will have to look at the whole of the areas covered by budget protection to find the replicated twenty thousands in future years, and not just expect it to come from registration. Erm, from the comments from the table that seems to be generally agreed. Yet the point, it's a question really, which refers back to the last programme summary three, of the, the ninety four, ninety five base budget. Within that we're, we identified a gross expenditure and a gross income across all areas of the Committee's work. Now clearly some of those are, are outside our direct control. Nevertheless there's five hundred and fourteen thousand as our income that the Fire and Rescue Service, the Fire Training Unit, from the Trading Standards Department, and from Emergency Planning. My question is, has the P A G looked at any ways of increasing any of that income to any degree at all? And if so, what were their findings? We have reviewed charges on, and the Fire Service, erm, in the past, and, and we've increased certain [clears throat] erm, but we didn't see any way we could, we could increase any more at that time. [Dave:] So far as Trading Standards is concerned Chairman, the major income are weights and measures testing fees and they are set down by LACOTS, that's Local Authority Courts on Trad on Trading Standards on er, an agreed scale, so we charge exactly the same as other authorities, for the same, for the same work, and we increase the fees every year, er, in line with erm, the recommendation. Er, the amount that we get, get in depends on erm, the amounts of trade and industry. We've done relatively well in the past couple of years because we've had a lot of petrol pumps, because of the new, the opening of the big supermar the, the supermarkets where there's thirty, forty pumps go going, we make a fair bit of money in that way. But you can't guarantee that, er, and once the supermarket developments er, have gone, then you'll drop off down, down again, and again you're affected by the rece recession, whereas people won't replace things like weighbridges, er, automatic weighing machines that sort of thing during the recession, if you come out of recession, then you might get, and you say you might get some increase in fees in that, that area. But those are always considered er, during the erm, er, revised estimates time in any way. The other one and that erm, the major source of income are court, court costs, and again that depends on the cases you're taking, it depends on the, on the amount awarded by er, magistrates. Over the years, we've taken the risk to increase the court's costs, erm, where we've got agreed pro er, principles, and we've b we've been able to go to the courts and they've agreed with us, for instance, standard fees for overloaded vehicle cases, we charge seventy pounds a time. Er, and the courts by and large agree to erm, give us the seventy pounds out ev every time, but even so, even if we get the award of the costs, then the difficulty is, is, is in getting those costs in. Erm, it's up to the magistrate's clerk and sometimes the first... [tape change] [George:] So it's in the Fire Service that we've actually got time posted, and in fact most of the things that we wish to charge for we're actually statutorily prohibited from doing. Things like false alarm calls and so on, have been through the courts and we've been stopped from doing that. We charge the highest rate in the country for issuing fire certificates which is one of the few things which we're actually allowed to charge, and we charge more than virtually any other authority in this country. The trouble about that is, it's now enforced upon us and that's official target, we have to set priority of fire certificates because we need the money, bluntly, otherwise we have to find it elsewhere, so we give them a priority that they wouldn't otherwise have. Er, in terms of training, commercial training and it's not just the Fire and Rescue Service... I spoke recently with the Chief Ambulance Officer, who's experiencing the same problems. Training's the first thing that goes, in a recession, that's the first thing that people cut, and not only, well we are achieving the fixed amount of income that we're obliged to in order to make previous reductions, but we're certainly not covering costs. So what you're effectively doing at the moment is subsidizing the private commercial sector. Erm, everything else we've looked at, there are either statutory problems or other problems that prevent us from charging. So it's, if further income generation is limited, it's through external circumstances rather than any internal increases. [speaker001:] So we've really, we've really no alternative but to accept the hostage three, one to three on the reductions. It's best as I see it. [speaker003:] Erm, salmon paper. [speaker001:] We, we've got not alternative, did you say? Well I, I think that that's exactly what the Committee was saying to the Minister there. [speaker003:] No, no. [speaker001:] We, we, I thought were all saying that we felt that these reductions were actually unacceptable, or totally un almost unacceptable. Erm, there's not a word that's suitable to use actually in this case [LAUGHTER] because we find that they would actually impact upon the service in a serious manner [] and therefore we don't, Well put it this way, if we were compelled to find the savings they ask, that is the only way we could do it. [Dave:] That's right, we need to put that rider on, that, that we would hope that, obviously would look favourably at er, erm, removing these restrictions on our service if at all possible. [speaker001:] It's only specific in item two. [speaker003:] Specifically in item two, yes, sorry. [speaker001:] Yes, yes, yes. Chair, Sorry, one and three I, I, I think that we've, I, I certainly couldn't accept. [speaker003:] We've got to accept the implication of, of item three though, in future years. [speaker001:] I think, I think Council is accepting this but I think it's You're changing battle ground there Mr Chairman, to be honest. I think what Mr has said, is quite right, is that this is a carry forward for this year, and er, we've, we're clobbering it taking it up really is what we're saying. So what he's saying we've got to discount it So what he's saying is Next year we wouldn't have a, erm, look and see whether that twenty thousand is coming from the local authority, it's not necessarily in that particular money It's not our calls [speaker003:] So what we're saying, or in item, well the last item, implication of further service reduction, with that twenty thousand pound on Fire and Rescue Service will be applicable for this year only? [speaker001:] We've said that will be acceptable in P A G Chairman? [Jennifer:] It's not acceptable, it's not acceptable Chairman, we agreed in the P A G, it wasn't acceptable. [speaker001:] It's been spelt out. We threw that one out then. Mm, yes. [Jennifer:] No way. [speaker003:] But it's in, but it's in here isn't it? [speaker001:] So we put a, as a rider on, that it had already passed the rider it says there, but we found it unacceptable at P A G. [Jennifer:] for we're offering them [speaker001:] If it has to be found that's the only way. But to us it is unacceptable. Is the exception applied to two? Yes, So we've got to in Trading Standards? [speaker003:] Yes, yes, yes. [Jennifer:] Trading Standards however important, and Trading Standards is very important, erm, when you're getting down to erm, reductions in equipment and uniforms and men, then lives are at risk, it is really a matter of er, er, of, of for our fire fighters that they have the right equipment and the right uniform and when it actually comes down, you can't compare that to maybe reductions in Trading Standards. [speaker001:] If, if I can support that Chairman, and what John said also. That's why we couldn't, when we talked about it earlier, use the same word unacceptable, on both item two under Fire Service reductions. Because the Fire and Rescue Service reductions are unacceptable, and I think this Committee should say to, and to leave that in its proposal to Policy Panel and P and R. What things? But when it comes to the Trading Standards Board, what we're saying is, if P and R and Policy Panel this Committee finds seventy thousand pounds' worth of savings, then clearly item two represents a way of doing it. But it represents a way of doing it which is not what the members of this Committee, of all three parties I suspect, want to do. And we would therefore strongly urge them to consider that, and not to take that saving unless it was sort of necessary. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Sounds reasonable to me. [speaker003:] Are you all in favour of that then? [speaker001:] Yes, as long as this possibly isn't major that we do not agree on? Well the Chairman Are we? [speaker003:] So we're all in favour? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] Capital programme Chair, is that outlined in erm, on the pink pages, if members have any comments to put to David ... [sound of an watch alarm] Aha [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] What you do now, is er is er, Robert you can come up and take us through the four steps of selling. However, to make it a little bit more interesting, you can't use your notes. listen to Robert [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] and see how it goes then. [speaker004:] [clapping]... [Robert:] Good morning all. [speaker001:] Good morning Robert [Robert:] survived this far. Right last Friday we went through the four stages of selling. Now I must admit my first thoughts of it were it really gets my back up for some reason or other. I don't know whether anybody else feels like that but I do. Now having said that and looking at it with an open mind... I think it was certainly a very useful day. The structure was there and I think anybody who's been in this business for any number of years, some of us have been in it longer than others er know that you actually need a structure er of that, of that little. If you actually go out there without one and I know you find that eventually that is the structure that you come up with. You start off by asking questions by the if you like and talking to people, getting to know people, getting next to people. Because it's no good just going in there and throwing products at them, it doesn't work, I know I tried it and, so you need to start off by getting close to people, talking to them, finding out all about. You then move on and to find out what you actually can do. find out what they actually need which is the second part and to do that once you do that it's quite easy, as I say once you've actually made contact with them and you are on a friendly basis, you then, you can hold very very useful conversation and let them come over quite naturally. For the second part finding out what their needs are. The third part is perhaps something that erm, we find a little more difficult, I do found that er number two, number three and number four if you weren't careful blends very much into one another and actually then part three as far as I'm concerned actually putting across the benefits... is really the main part I think and that really is putting into everyday English what we know as professionals as in technical terms, cos if you go and talk to somebody whatever it is, they haven't got a clue we have, we talk about it all the time and I think the biggest criticism of the insurance industry as a whole is the fact that you don't talk to people in English and that's why it's got such a foot in the door and I think the third part for me really is the most important part of the sales process, relating our cock-ups in English, the benefits the client. That really is I think er the part that I erm are most useful in those. I sold three and one of the reasons why and I think we got tremendous opportunity to develop an enormous part by just going in and speaking to people to explain to and they can relate to write lots and lots of and you can get a good grip we won't do it overnight, it is something you have got to develop. Th that, that to me is the most important part of. not supposed to laugh always got to close people down and make sure we do get the order. So as I say I, I found Friday very useful, I found the er, the renewed routines, although we, I mean we all had lots of problems with the videos, they didn't come out but it didn't really matter because the three of us in our group sat there and very openly, very honestly, and without any personal animosity whatsoever... helped each other and that again, as I say very useful and so above all a and I think it's something that I feel very strongly about because we haven't talked to people we've, in English, understandable language about what this is all about. [speaker001:] Okay well done, thank you very much. [speaker004:] [clapping] [speaker001:] That gave us an overview [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] of Friday and we looked at the individual steps but we know, everybody says yes we ask the business, we came across and to put Gareth, can you take it through and explain what it is, and explain each stage so let's hear from Gareth then. [speaker004:] [clapping]... [Gareth:] Thank you, oh sorry, erm explain come forward, sometimes you've got to watch for to erm [speaker001:] To get back to what method did they come up with? [Gareth:] Well the erm I think sales subject asking questions was erm asking a lot of questions and [speaker001:] give an example on the. Give an example on the board how you do that. [Gareth:] Er [speaker001:] Let's have it in explain. Go on... what did you prepare last night thinking. [Gareth:] I've already. [speaker001:] Oh dear, never mind. [Gareth:] Erm... erm first one [LAUGHTER]. actually asked in the first place. [speaker001:] The first thing to acknowledge make sure [Gareth:] to answer er. [speaker001:] Good, well done, thank you very much. [speaker004:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Okay that was an overview of Friday's successful sales course day and the purpose of is to watch why do you come overflow acknowledge, we probe, we answer and confirm. The temptation to answer the. Now straight on we haven't got the real reason why we are projecting, quite intense you will find you may be like today acknowledge, you probe projection, you answer you confirm the over you overcome that objection. So you'd only look in that projection what will happen, right. It will [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] try and close. There is still, I am sure, of specific areas and you have to highlight those areas and get them out of the way. Right, so that was Friday. What you do today. Before you move on, I'd like to introduce you to Maggie who will be one of the role play customers for today and tomorrow. Maggie is one of the senior advisers, one of the successful senior advisers at the Brecon branch and the chap next to her, who hasn't turned up yet is, [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] is, he was on a Christmas bash last night, he did, he has told me he'd be late, he'll be here oh about ten o'clock- ish. His who is the Branch Manager at the Horsham branch and he'll be the other role play customer. You may see a guy wandering in and out groups and that's a guy called Geoff who works for the British National Corpus and these are the people who are trying to have or produce ten million words of the written word and a hundred million erm spoken words, which is a corpus whereby, er come and look at the English language at some time in the future and identify and listen to some of your and your dialects and what you said so make sure you have lots of input as we've got quite a broad spectrum of different dialects today but he'll be wandering in and out er throughout today. So introductions out of the way, of today is to look at [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] the first two steps of the full centre rota, open and step two the exploration of need which will come if you like after objective is that utilizing easy steps of the full step sound process. So that's what we're going to do today. But before we look at each step in turn. I'll take you back to erm, if you like, the ignition key of the whole sales structure. What starts the whole sales. Bill? [Bill:] Er project sociability. [speaker001:] No, no, before that. [Bill:] Sorry. [speaker001:] Much before that the whole biblical use that starts the whole sales project going. [Bill:] Yeah, telephone call. [speaker001:] Yeah, so we have made our telephone call, we've made an appointment for say seven o'clock in the evening. What time would you get there? What time would you turn up there? Couple of minutes. [Bill:] quarter to. [speaker001:] Yeah about quarter to or, give yourself time to get there but why do you want to get there early? Organize yourself, obviously be punctual and be on time so that they can set you up, their clock by you. [Bill:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah, what else? [Bill:] know what their name is. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Bill:] How old they are, anything that might. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right, plan preparation and what else? [Bill:] Suss the area. [speaker001:] Yeah, look at the area. Yeah but don't prejudge. Cos you could get there and there could be a four o'clock there and you might think oh my God what a waste of time this is. That could be ever right and the true. It could be yes, rub your hands with glee forty pound back. What a waste of time that was. So don't prejudge, the purpose of being there is to organize yourself, get a prime preparation about the customer, look at the area because that could be part of er your talking point so appropriate thing. So we go, we knock at the door, we assume it's the right address, he comes to the door and what will be the first thing you should say? Yeah, yes, hi, you know with warm both hands, the boat. What would be the first thing, people tend to do when they've met for the very first time? [Bill:] Shake hands. [speaker001:] Yes shake hands, shake hands with them. And again. [Bill:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What was it the difference between the first hand and the second handshake? You may not see it at the back there a lot stronger, okay. Well a thing called power handshakes, which I thought were the biggest load of gobbledegook until I watched them, a specific chat show host. There is a story don't give the answer away but who would you say is very positive, one of the most aggressive chat show hosts in, say, today could be I T V or B B C? no, Clive no. [speaker004:] Gloria. [speaker001:] is she, Des, how about Des. Now what tends to happen is, as you know, there is lots and lots of different guests on his chat show and if he feels threatened by them in any way shape or form, what he does he relaxes her, comes in over the top, turns them over, takes them by the shoulder and pushes them into the chair and what he is saying, he is saying, this is my chat show, don't you submit. And the next time I saw that happen was when erm Colin who was the coloured guy during the gulf crisis met erm our m John. Bill Clinton had gone for his inaugurations now President of the United States so John high U K John and he met Colin and we had about two sort of erm semi heads of state battling in the what went on. So, so John came in over the top, Colin put his hands on top line, so John said I'm in charge, over the top, Colin said, no. He said no i'm not and John says, well no actually i'm in charge here and cosy [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] not at all. What it was was I'm in charge, no you're not and if you meet two people give me two people who are both power like pin it on the top as well. What it is you have a bit of a power twist that easy and of course that's embarrassing so when John met Maggie he thought well I can't twist her over and get stuck in there. So what he does now he always comes in over the top, so every time you see John shake hands with anybody he'll always do that and come in over the top actually I'm in charge and he sort of er sort of stamps his authority on the individual. So what I'm saying to you is, don't go in over the top, you know, five, just a normal but a firm handshake because a man would expect it because a weak ha ha handshake can be irritating and the same thing if she is a woman [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] don't be conversational [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] just pinch her hand, give her a firm handshake because you've got about ninety seconds in which to make your first impression and of the ninety seconds about ninety five percent of that time is made through visual images and that can be your dress sense, the way you carry yourself, present yourself, erm body language, don't invade his personal space, only I think about erm I think about twelve, twelve seconds off of ninety seconds, or there thereabouts is spent on what you say. The large proportion of the impressions made to what they see, how they visualize you, so if you look a mess you're backing on the wrong foot, you give, you're getting off to a bad start straight away and be aware of hidden signals that you'll give your emanating. successful sales people, if you have a hole in your shoe, that can be intensely embarrassing and they'll spot that. So the head of a major I can't think of the guy's name and he just had a major acquisition and this guy was [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] mega bucks and the company had gone escalated and then opportunity of this guy, you know, saying what a super guy he was, what an entrepreneur and what he done is, you know, I've had something head, you know, I'm in charge and he put his feet on the desk there and he had a hole in his shoe and s spread across all the papers the next day was this guy with a hole in his shoe and this was a multi million pound corporate er corporate body, he couldn't afford to buy a decent pair of shoes [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] so check your shoes. Women tend to look for three to four things, your shoes, your fingernails, ties and socks, okay so make sure you look the part. Don't wear overpowering aftershave, that says more about your sexuality and sensuality than about your business acumen. overpowering dress. So we set the scene, we look good, we haven't crushed them to death and he's gonna take us into one or two areas [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] either the living room or the study or maybe the kitchen. So if we look at the living room... I would say this is our, our living room, right into the hall... erm... the T V in the corner there... settee there... so you wander in there, Gill where would you put yourself, where would you sit down? Just there? Yeah okay, [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] Why would you go there? [Gill:] Because I, I want to sit in the room where they're both gonna be facing not sitting like an odd dog right. [speaker001:] Yes. The could be if you pop yourself there, he sits there and she sits there, you're asking him a question, he's not sure, he looks at her, so if you look you can't see what you're doing, you want to be able to maintain eye contact with them both, yeah, one of the effective ways, well they're going to be aware of the layout of the living room, this is their, this is their stage. As we come across, you know, slippers there and a hot steaming mug of tea embarrassed in there. All of a sudden you're infringing upon his his stamping ground, his authority and he won't take it too kindly. [Bill:] According to if you change the settee, you are knocking the T V because on about two calls er last week, the T V never went off. So what you're doing is to take the focal point away from them and they're having to look at you if you know what I mean. [speaker001:] What so you would go there then? [Bill:] I would go there, simply because of the situation where the T V never is switched off. [speaker001:] tend to try and get rid of the T V because you don't want the distraction in the background. [Bill:] Spoil never switched it off. [speaker001:] We need it now, we need, we are a nation that needs continual visual stimulation. Take the T V away and conversation collapses and dies and in a survey a former German couple, they took away lots of and they were nearly suicidal and they were nearly murdering [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] the wife, the husband and the children because they hadn't got the continual visual simulation... a picture paints a thousand words, this is where we have O H P. This is where we have erm er as opposed to standing here and delivering erm an otherwise. If we are gonna start switching off a heavy night the night before and you need visual stimulation to get you up and. So personally I'd be satisfied you are there or there. Well effective ways of starting putting your authority wh where you wanna go is by using the. There is no right or wrong way and personally I always take a briefcase with me because there you have the tools of my trade in there. If you feel comfortable going in second one of these and these alone, that's fine by him do what we did come in the first place, you can go in, take your briefcase... pop it down there, this says to them, this is where I'm gonna work from, is that okay with you? Rather than plonking [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] down there and getting everybody's [speaker004:] [sneeze] [speaker001:] So the suit so the suit the briefcase rather, does have an effective purpose... So let's say we haven't gone into there... and we go into the study... he sits there, where would you put yourself there? [speaker004:] Straight [speaker001:] Just there yes okay why would you go there? [speaker004:] Because the desk is consultation. [speaker001:] Could be seen yeah. [speaker004:] see what you're doing if you're writing. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah okay I think to go across there, won't be so board room style, can be seen as confrontational. We used to have the layout on course, not like this but in [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] that sort of case is where I'm in the middle there and you're all sat around there. I said they would be noticed... because you got a better response from people who put you in small groups feel there is less pressure on them. Which if you imagine you've got twenty, twenty four, twenty four people all sat around in that particular format and I nominate somebody within the group, twenty p pairs of eyes focus on this one guy, if he doesn't know the answer to the question he's incredibly embarrassed. If you spread the group up and as far as you're concerned there's only a couple of guys looking at you and within the group more supportive than just one big body and if you're feeling comfortable then the chances are you retain more information and part information to not just sat there. Those you find general public make no difference. So yeah, be aware and try not to be. There may well be there's a chair there and a chair there there well, I guess he'd want you to sit there, don't be tempted to pull the chair when it authority I'm here, you're there do with me, let's see how it goes and I trust you. Okay he stamps his authority. Again be aware if you have a desk, the temptation is that you using a folder here and if your is laid on the desk, what would he be able to do? Roger? [Roger:] read it. [speaker001:] Yeah he'd be able to read it, now the problem with that might produce... is what? What his potential problem would be, pick it up. [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] What [Bill:] psychological barrier up, there's a psychological barrier you reckon you can sell me something. [Gill:] He might start asking you why answer to that question. got there. [speaker004:] That starts the key thinking, why do I the field list of. Why do I just time, why do I do that? You can go through the points one at a time. [speaker001:] I want you to concentrate on a specific area, so you want to retain control. You are the main you're in charge there, so again be aware. This is why I think this sort of folder worth its weight in gold put the C C Q in there and it doesn't become a barrier if you have it like that. Something which is called the best of and at the same time this barrier, so again be aware.... So if I was to say we've... we've picked our area, what potential instructions do we have do you think, let's say we've got a good, quite now, what potential instruction do we have with that particular area, that arena rather? [speaker004:] T V. [speaker001:] Yeah the T V could do with a few big ones, alright okay body stopper, they want you to have a T V on and be tempted, depends on what, how it went, to ask them to turn it off but if you can't that would upon them then you'll have to work with it because what you don't want to be seeing is okay they are there, you're here and they're concentrating on this. [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] Okay what other obstructions would we have? Pets yeah. Pets, he just wants to say hello, you knock at the door and this Afghan wolfhound is playing in the back there, take it in the kitchen and they say to you he only wants to say hello, that's right [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] This dog is bounding out and going to sniff and then calms down. I went into one house and er you so I came in and I got to about sort of I don't know, roughly there I think it was and she said, do you have any objection to cats? I said no not particularly that little grey Persian, cats in the so I went in there and then six of them, cats and two gerbils oh my God what am I getting into? So you can actually look at your jokes. So nothing to do with pets really, just put up with the hope or you can always take yourself with you [LAUGHTER] miaow spreading the. [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] What other obstructions do we have? [speaker004:] How can we pre-empt that? Ask the time they go to bed? [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah you could do yeah if you have young children because they are far better sales people than we will ever be. You could think of course do have children, dad, can I, can I, can I, bed you go, just to shut them up so if you have two small children there, the chances are you will lose the woman put them to bed or. If you lose the woman what have you potentially lost? sale. [speaker004:] Unfortunately. [speaker001:] The decision maker [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] Then you've lost them in maker, he's going to do nothing without her being there. Again you want both people there. So just a few ideas, not let you know exhaustive but a few ideas to be aware of you've got appropriate. So, three ca get there on time, let them set the clock by you, people are more forgiving for somebody I think if you are a little bit late, than if you're too early. Cos people are geared up to see you at seven o'clock. Five to seven, that's not a problem, but quarter to seven, that sets the whole, the whole sale process the wrong. seven o'clock, well I thought I'd come a bit earlier forget that they want a tidy living room, they want to get the toys out of the way, they want to present themselves in the best possible light so they'd be more forgiving if you're late than if you're too early to be on time. Right, so, here we go then, let's look at step one the open... right so, okay so what would be the first part of this particular sales process? introduction. Yes. Reaching an appropriate sociability and the business to be won or lost short space of time and wanted to set the scene and make a right, a right impression at the right. Then... appropriate too short, too long, accept the so appropriate sociability, how long have you been there... just moved in, do you know the neighbours that bit of information you've gathered especially late at night now on someone's door that's already set back whatever. Nothing more embarrassing than going up right underneath, oh he's got the wrong one and the door opens. Very embarrassed to get a to searchlight [LAUGHTER] the panning down the street so we have responsibility to accept the team sat down and start. What would you point? five. [speaker004:] Can I worry about that? Yes. [speaker001:] Don't say I'll give you a bit of my advice on a lead, because er you haven't had the call so you ought to be on your best level. Wise guy merely states who you are and who you represent and what advice you can give and that's it, it's no big deal. If they wanna read it [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] let them. See cos very few people will actually say stop I need to speak with independent advise because he's working in my best interests, where you are entirely with an independent company. Very few people at all would ever ever ever ever say that and we look at the, when we look at the, the erm format you'll find called it a sadist because chains on him from because on him so that we. However, if you feel the buyer's going to present a business problem we show them the buyer's guide and a business card so you can give them the buyer's guide, explain what it's for and then give them your business card and then that buyer's guide to look for business card. Yeah, the buyer's guide but let's not get bogged down with this, this isn't the problem something we have to do. so he looks at the buyer's guide, business card and it's thoroughly. What will we do there? yeah, introduce Bob for referrals. Then how do you tea how would you have tea? [speaker004:] Well depending on the situation er you would ask him how he did came to be client. [speaker001:] Yes okay carry on you're right there. [speaker004:] Erm [speaker001:] So [speaker004:] erm come to. [speaker001:] With clients like this walking down just wanna go down quality. That's the usual answer I get. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm... you may have heard that we've grown big by being recommended. Er by word of mouth recommendations erm... Sorry Robert [Robert:] Oh yeah we've [speaker001:] carry on. [Robert:] You can erm by word of mouth recommendations it means that we, we have to spend less money on advertising, now that means that in the long run we can pass that on to the client like yourself [speaker004:] Ha ha. [Robert:] by way of reducing and charges or increasing the benefits wherever possible. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Just in the course of our competence. [Robert:] Right in the course of our er er com our meetings Danny erm I will be asking you to recommend me to people but if, but only if you feel that this meeting has been of some benefit to you. Will that be okay? [speaker004:] We'll, seriously gentleman we'll take it from there, there there's a cup of tea out in the. [speaker001:] introduce it get my view of [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] I'd give you the introduction one point commitment that you didn't get. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] but hopefully it won't be the so what you're saying was you you'd recommend it to us, yeah plan this is the way we do our business, by recommendations okay. You have to learn that script, it's got to roll off the tongue, if you don't know the script, you'll have it you'll leave it out, you won't do it, you haven't planned for tea which means what? [Robert:] You won't, you definitely won't ask at the end of the first not a hope in hell begin the second, cos you might ask at the end of the second appointment. comes a shock to the guy, who [speaker004:] [cough] [Robert:] depends on my advice there's my business card I will now give me a ring. Yeah sure yeah lovely, thanks a lot. What is it was, what did they tell you anyway? Erm hash it back to referrals, thirty one weeks six hundred any of the thirty one weeks and they're gone. Okay so make sure we plant the seed and and we're planting the seed to go back to later on. So we've planted the seed makes sense, we'll see what you can do, get mortgaged up, what would we do now? Yes Yeah. Why do there? And what would be [speaker004:] And the reason Pauline is to service [Robert:] That's one of the reasons, yeah. One other. Yeah, good one other. [Gill:] To make sure. [Robert:] Yeah good. Well the first want to say hi two to look at the policy we have with us to make sure they're so good as originally intended. Well what always follows the statement professional salesman? Invalidate it good. And what will be a tentative. Well what do they mean by a tentative benefit? [speaker004:] [cough] [Robert:] tentative benefit Yeah we don't want say well you know I can save you tax. [speaker004:] [cough] [Robert:] Well if you save tax yes it is or bad planning try to keep it as broad as we possibly can. So what attempted benefit would you undertake? [speaker004:] benefit. [Robert:] Yeah. [speaker004:] is making money work harder for you. [Robert:] Yeah. Try to keep it as broad as you can to do the well alright then I know why it is, what's in it for me. What game an hour in the future increasing your income like today or some time in. Then what would follow. What would be my first Yeah. [speaker004:] A tentative. [Robert:] Salesman. We call it a proceed, then why do we check proceed should be part of the whole self process and not just in. to be delivered in one statement show you what the chances are you'll be doing it anyway but not erm what you are actually doing purpose you'll always be followed by a tentative benefit always be followed by cheque standing or in this case tell me how does that. [speaker004:] [cough] [Robert:] What are we gonna do now? Yes. I need to take down one or two details, will that be alright. it's part of the sales process. For you to give better advice, C C Q no you don't but to get past the yes you do. [LAUGHTER] If you don't you could use an A four pad building up a picture of the guy and trying at some time [speaker004:] [cough] [cough] [Robert:] with that one, if you do, don't have it. do obviously, do business, you're gonna need some form of I D card. The final session would be to introduce er the C C Q. That's basically, that is step one... can you follow? Each part of that particular structure, you've done a good step one, what must that lead to? Before step one we did what? And before step two we do? you're not too sure what he wants, he's agreed to see you next week, he doesn't know why he's seeing you but you go back and you present, so try and overcome rejection but the thing was he wants to in the first place. So you that one second time instructions from that point unlikely very very unlikely so you've set the scene with a good strong step one, so looking at each indiv individual part of the open, which parts do you think you could leave out? [speaker004:] None of them. [Robert:] None of them, so make sure you don't. step one. Any questions or comments? [speaker004:] unlikely and he said no I don't want to go, it's easy sorry to have, thanks for your time. [Robert:] Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't C C Q, I just go back to, erm and to start chat basically and see what contact. Now acknowledgement could be, can be. That's a good question the temptation to fill the void is quite intense. How, how long do you think it'll take for give up how long will it take before that person feels uncomfortable and has to respond? How long does it take roughly? ten. Specially fifth, a fifth of a second and they start to feel uncomfortable. By one second, two seconds, they are starting to perspire and they will have to say something unless you get a real swine to sell people, one we sell to, two, the one that says I know the stuff a hope in hell [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] he did that and he was quiet for twenty minutes. [Robert:] Twenty minutes [speaker004:] I just sat with him [Robert:] Yeah. [speaker004:] He sold, he sold it to them in the end. [Robert:] Ninety minutes. [speaker004:] He just sat there. [LAUGHTER] forget what you're there for [Robert:] Yeah [speaker004:] horrible. [Robert:] Pretty intense that twenty minutes, my God. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Robert:] For those of you that don't know how to the C C Q [speaker004:] [cough] [Robert:] then this might be a guide but a step in the right direction hopefully. During our discussions with the client I'll be making notes can the situation but one foot in your own regarding your own future plans. I'll just once more track, don't say all give you the best possible advice. effective way in achieving your future plans. How does that sound? Bit long winded... C C Q then put your back up. to say okay and then quite often you say my God that's that whopper. [LAUGHTER] If in the unlikely event, if they want to feel a C C Q, let them have it, don't, don't because that person may be a tax he, he buys he has to feel what he's buying and to deprive him from that you really are up against it. People buy in three different modes, visual and audible or a connective touchy, feel mode, if he wants to be touchy feeling you give it to him. He'll be touchy feeling and he wants to complete application form, give it to him... okay if he's an original he'll want to see conceptual presentations, he'll want to see illustrations, he'll want to see erm, sales aids, if he's in audible mode he will far more readily to what you tell him as opposed to, let me show you something, okay and there's a specific technique [speaker004:] You have to [Robert:] don't be afraid of P M you're right there you'll find don't be afraid to give him the C C Q, it's no big deal. If he comes back and says, well this is, this is a bit of a whopper, this document [speaker004:] [cough] Just takes a lot of. [Robert:] Yeah. It certainly may not be, it may be a very good artificial you see H M A that he is recoverable, he may be a. So er right... loads of you have been away, I'm going to hand [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] And you can use this when we move into the role play [speaker004:] [cough] [Robert:] which will be I don't know about ten o'clock-ish... is that a problem the er a copy of a buyer's guide in for you... Before we move into the role play for cycle, what I have to do is show you erm a training video that is produced by the department, you may have seen it before I don't know... [speaker004:] [cough]... [Robert:] ......... [speaker004:] ... [Robert:] ...... who's technical, anyone know what they're doing with these things? No [Gill:] You don't have much luck with [Robert:] I don't normally, no, this was set up yesterday [speaker004:] change [Robert:] That, that is the problem I can't change that here that and not particularly that problem... back up usually here... Right, it's important to see this, so can we have a quick ten minute break and I want somebody Very very hard. Yeah can we be back here at ten to ten please sociability [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Now it's gone now I'm afraid. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] Yeah. [speaker004:] ... [Robert:] The reason this figure was produced is erm because one of the comments we had back from the other induction courses er Gareth, the reason we had produced this video was erm structure you've never shown it, so it's not necessarily tongue in cheek but it is a strictly sales structure but it will give you a clearer idea of our guide what to do to the role plays this morning, Saturday and tomorrow. So here we go. The sales structure take two.... [the following is from a video recording] [speaker004:] [music] Friends all steps to selling. We are trying to break the selling process down to areas, this takes place over two separate appointments, that sets out the of selling process easier to understand. Step one the opening, this book the introduction from the purpose of the appointment. Step two, exploration of needs. This looks at finding out about your client and comes from the C C Q... the confidential client questionnaire, step three, present, this looks at presenting your recommendations based on the C C Q and finally step four the close. This is where you for the business, complete the paperwork and away the future business. Steps one and two takes place at the first appointment and steps three and four at the second. In the following two appointments our client's wife was unable to attend, however, it's important that all decision makers should be present where possible. [end of music] Step one the open, this looks at the introduction and the purpose of the appointment. This would be the first opportunity that your potential client has to meet you, remember first impressions do count. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Good afternoon Mr to meet you. Okay. Come right in. Thank you. A smile and a firm handshake accompanied by your announcement of who you are, where your should be the first impression that you make. Appropriate sociability means saying the right things to strike up a rapport with your client, helping them to relax, feel comfortable and get to know you before cutting the business. With some clients that can be five minutes discussing the house, the garden or a hobby of theirs with others it could mean a short exchange of pleasantries followed by a suggestion to proceed with your intended business. It's also a good time to decide where you're going to sit for example, in the dining room or the lounge. It can mean your client a guide about how you can advise followed by your business card, then help smooth into the area of business. I'd like to give you this which spells out clearly my status and what I can do for you, it simply states that I work for... [video ends] [Robert:] Well we have production course you have made your appointment to see Mr and Mrs who are existing clients of, you will now conduct the first appointment starting with greeting and appropriate sociability which is the first part of step one, through to producing the C C Q and then further copy pages two and four of the attached C C Q in your booklet, so two and four are er... we've got four and two, the personal details and may be the wrong way round there, so it's advisable to say you complete the first part of it, page two and then the employment details okay, so you doing a little bit of exploring there so if you like you can be doing all of step one and a little bit of step two, buying in this particular role playing. Is that clear to everybody? So the customers will be myself, Maggie sales people throughout the day and tomorrow we'll not be customers in any way, shape or form. Now I'll put you in these erm [clears throat] particular groups and you each have an allotted task as it were, so group A which is you people there, you will stay here okay and group B and C I'll put you, that's what we keep doing with that,... so Barry you are in the jurassic er Gareth you are in as well. So the previous manager will be Robert, and Gareth, it's your responsibility to control the role plays, make sure the the managers should not do that, keep it and make sure the whole role play scenario runs on track. Joan, Diane and Matt, so we'll see if we can get good this time so show you how the same. Bill, Roger and Vincent you will be the respective time keepers okay I'll give you timing in due course but remember to give a two minute warning which is the rap on the desk make sure going on and you will find out the role plays will or may run over time. you will notice B and C only has three people in it. What that means in your particular groups you will nominate amongst yourselves who will be the fourth role play. So each of the groups four role plays amongst yourselves who will do er the extra role play. If there are four to do, so you'll all again at least twice and the best thing you have is you have more practice er [clears throat] so are you all clear on what you have to do, what you're allotted to have to sell? Now and that's for my benefit alone okay, what that means is that I'll see each and every one of you in a, a role play so the first person in each role play will be Robert, Barry and Gareth, followed by Gill,, followed by Bill, Roger and Vincent and Robert again you do not deviate from that order. That means I will see you at least once. Right here feedback to your respective manager as regards to your sales figures... so please stick to that format for today and tomorrow everyone clear on what we have for today, yeah?.... [speaker004:] [cough]... [Robert:] So we're looking at five minutes preparation, fifteen minutes role play, fifteen minutes play back, followed by twenty minutes feedback. Each cycle should take fifty five minutes... so we do three sets of role play, well we look at them, look for the cycle to start at quarter past ten... first cycle must start at quarter past ten, there four that should be for one o'clock... so we commence the third and final role play, come back here and break for lunch and have an hour for lunch final role play at two o'clock. That is everyone clear in what they have to do? Yeah... the actual as you did successful sales course we can note your comments down okay, I'll give you a set of these now, write the sales person's name across there and write your comments, criticisms, what was done well, what was done badly, what could be improved on and it's his role play cycle, give this to the sales person. Remember the format controls he will normally start off, sell first routine, then he or she will have er say, right at the very end, say why he say why he or she [clears throat] and that's the format I want to follow. That performance but not the applicant, so don't take it to heart as not necessarily. Can I have the any spares... Right if there are no, anyone got any questions at all? Right okay so this group of study here, you can get all your stuff and your videos, follow me and I'll take you to the rooms. Do not start until quarter past Yeah you don't start [speaker004:] Yeah. [Robert:] Make sure you bring your videos and your notes and all that sort of stuff with you, I am sure we'll need it.... And make sure you bring the key as well? Try and remember that okay let's go... [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] Thanks Bob.... [Gill:] ... ... [Robert:] I suppose. [speaker001:] Come on then camera operator... [Gill:] technical.... Yeah it's been engaged on Friday... [speaker004:] Are you are you gonna use this table? [Gill:] Probably [speaker004:] I would think so. You're welcome. You alright? I'm fine. [Gill:] How do you feel? Well done. I don't actually know where all those troubles with videos. Well there's er... lots. [speaker004:] they, they suggest that we do Are you going to use my tape rather than yours? [Gill:] What? No I'll just go and, I'll just quickly clean erm I'll just set the camera up that's all. [speaker004:] that one. [Gill:] I don't know. [speaker004:] What erm what today? [Gill:] Oh well I'm officially on leave at the moment. I was taking leave this week [speaker004:] Oh right. [Gill:] so I'm wound up anyway but erm [speaker004:] Anything happening? [Gill:] I've got an appointment already booked. They wouldn't have got me to come if I hadn't had, if I. [speaker004:] Oh well you're as experienced as anyone now this trying to get Okay Daniel Action. [Gill:] one of the nice parts about this is that you are getting paid on ninety percent cycle. When, when I started you only got payment. [speaker004:] The problem that I had with the [Gill:] Where you don't get it, if it's clean bid there erm you're going to be getting it Right. [speaker004:] Erm actually it may be better if you. [Gill:] Yes you haven't got much space there have you? [speaker004:] No. [Gill:] I don't know [speaker004:] . Which is good, considering you know closed down. Sure [Gill:] Oh yes. Well this is about make sure that you want... [speaker004:] Does your wife know about this?... Oh [LAUGHTER] right [].... Right who's got any well if you could just move a little bit closer. [LAUGHTER] Now, now. [Gill:] You can see we, we've done very well on this. [speaker004:] That's very I mean this see what you think about that actually it's got. Let's just look and see. but other I'm in control. [cough]... See you've just got. that way see all the Yes. We can do all those all that. It's a personal sales process [Robert:] a complete evaluation of the [speaker004:] Spot them... [Gill:] I can't do it... [speaker004:] [cough]

[speaker001:] Er er I was with you then selling then. Er you also basically er the first thing you did was erm the second thing you mentioned was these two hurdles, the third thing you did was check when you was to proceed. Er the fourth thing you did was introduction to the C C Q. So you went four, in one to seven you went four, three, six, seven and I think you missed out and appropriate sociability. I didn't ten minutes later. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I wasn't sure if there or well there may be so whatever reasons it just went out the window. Erm still friendly still relaxed which is very important part er and er tried. Once you got into the C C Q erm for me it sounded like a string of questions... erm I couldn't hear any at all or any open questions into any of the answers that were given to you on question. Erm there was, there was one module, and develop that. [speaker003:] How did it go? [speaker001:] Nothing at all erm there was something there important time of the year. Again with the Royal Navy Reserve mentioned just, just question, you register the answer and on you went. Er... I'll just put Miss signal to probe into areas. First one was worked abroad expand on that. I think the proof of the pudding was that y you know you finished up in twelve minutes and arguably you have three minutes could have been spent floating around just chatting about this, that and the other. Er I was, I was surprised erm because it was, it wasn't as good as I started. So there we are it's a bitter critique.... [clears throat] [speaker004:] Very relaxed, good effort Pete. [speaker002:] I've got the feeling that I was th there to talk about it break erm, Doris all of it. she did all those steps. [speaker001:] right order. [speaker002:] In fact erm I've ticked them all eventually erm you actually did them out of order. There was a potential benefit and I can't remember exactly Erm p pro probes, nearly all closed erm we were taking notes of sort to follow up things. Yes. You weren't asking to expand it. Tell me about these things, so you don't smoke, you don't and there's all sorts of problems. Erm when said, said it all and then should say that but there's nothing more I can say and so the overall thing was great. relax, just put the guy talk themselves till the cows come home, I would have done erm this, got the structure the wrong way round... Over to you. [speaker005:] Right erm a lot of good things there erm empathy is I think the second thing I wrote down on, on the strength, brilliant very see that obviously open up erm there was interest in what I was doing, you, you were confident. I thought you did ask some, there were a lot of good overall questions to start with but I think they tailed away very quickly. Erm fact that you set up the scene for the introductions and you asked for it that you, you know, took and reduced those people to an image of which was good. Erm you had a statement of Barbara's, if it was in there, it was planned so that you crew can work harder erm although you filled in the bonus question well,the there was a tend dangerous tendency for you be sucked in to go into the bonus and I think you did well to say yeah well we'd better walk along to that so you held out which was nice because if I had if you hadn't tackled that you might have been shown the door once you'd gone through that. Erm [clears throat] yeah you will see you, you will seek an application and er you've checked on the completeness of the information. A lot of people would have just kept it, that thirty five thousand, nothing else but you went in, you picked up the R N V R. Erm well what's come out you see, you did finish early and there are a lot of, if you like, no, they weren't red herrings but laissez needed a bit further probing like on the income, thirty five thousand, yeah, but is there anything else, well yeah there's the car, there's the all of those are pensionable. You could have Yeah so, there's a bit more, more could have been written down on that. I saw you write down crafty so you picked up his little circle, it could be used for referrals, there's the R A R obviously is another one so they're things that can be er picked up. You didn't ask a question about my you accepted at face value the thing about health.... Is there not a question in there, unless I'm going, er does it ask you er alright you can talk fast something like that whether you've had a serious illness or [speaker002:] just put there what's your present state of health, present state of health. take any regular medication Present state of health [speaker005:] That's right you did ask me that [speaker002:] [sneeze] [speaker005:] you did erm, I think you've not been asked to do, to say anything about have you had any serious illnesses at all. [speaker002:] Yeah it has cropped up. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Something ag again you when you're doing it, in other areas of the industry if you're not taught the structure you, you are not taught properly, you get these very bad habits and essential thing which is coming out by not following the structure in order I actually wrote down er by missing the business card and the buyer's guide at the beginning, I was actually I've got to slip this in somewhere and not listening to what you were saying and some of what you said went straight over my head which is bad because you're missing things then. Er some of the. [speaker005:] Yeah some, some of ours. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Get away from there. [speaker002:] I usually get round people like that though because if somebody said that not at all but, you know, there are tax advantages in it sort of thing erm. [speaker005:] Yeah it's just a small volume, you've just got one channel for, yeah currently I'm in pretty good shape but only a year ago I had a major bypass operation. So you've just got to watch out that you you're gonna miss those things if you're not careful. Okay with education of children, does that not crop up on this? [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. [speaker005:] Erm, what else was there, tennis? Did you, did you think there was [speaker002:] Tennis Club yes. [speaker005:] Because there were, there were easily three lists of influence on referrals that you need to be attuned to, that I gave you in that one erm praise, give a bit of praise to my wife because all I'm proud of crafty, I thought, you know, why didn't you say that was a beautiful brief. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] And when you go home [speaker002:] Because I would think it's that I hadn't given you the [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I knew Is that when it clicked? Yeah,th well no just before then I kept thinking God I haven't the buyer's guide and all that bit just went straight over my head that's. I wasn't listening and it was important that I should have picked that up. [speaker005:] I mean you obviously did well because you've realized you've forgotten it and you know you've gotta, the ideal two worst steps over to, the person who's sitting here is not gonna say, hold on, where's the buyer's guide, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] It's not that important sir []. [speaker005:] unless it's the but er if you've forgot it back good reason for handing it over so yeah I mean I, I think that [clears throat] well I've given you the, the, the strength if you like we can see it, perhaps a little bit more open questioning wouldn't go amiss would it? [speaker002:] No. [speaker005:] did it so well the other Friday when in the [speaker002:] It was preparation that did it [speaker005:] wasn't the preparation, but yours was the best, best one of Friday [speaker002:] because we had to sit and prepare what we were doing. Er I'd, I'd picked out because I knew a lot about the client whereas here I know nothing about the client. [speaker005:] the case in fact in real life is there [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. but if you, if you looking at some things that came up there are crafty marks That's interesting where do they meet, walk down to the local church and that's great well what sort of time do they meet oh you know eleven till five? Now if you can go there all you're doing is if you're showing interest and you qualify like you reckon is it going to be worth my while, what sort of people go there, you know the R N I. How often do you meet and how many people there, you're showing interest but you're also qualifying at the same time and it's not padding, it's actually useful information because you're thinking well that's worth pursuing the R N I, yes but there's money there. The, they really convert bibles for doing that is because I've always done that of er right that's, that's out of the way, jump the paperwork, now what about talking about your clubs and that t to sort of close down the call and relax the client for getting into referral mode and I've always done it tail end on so the introduction to the referral is at the beginning and perhaps looking for them during i is totally unfamiliar, I mean I do note the odd thing as I go through and note them down on the, the but I'd never been used to actually although we were told referrals how and why that went with it. I think that's very valuable here because we've given all that stuff up front. [speaker005:] It's very easy to do it because all you do is how many people go there, you know, who runs it... runs it stuff like that and you just, you're exploring and you're getting more information and it's that's great, fine. Now if we get back to what we were talking about due to today so then you do a bit more and then it's back to the sort of really. [speaker002:] It's not quite the pressure, I mean I always find those two pages which is facts and that's it but that's the new dimension to it so that helps a lot. The other thing I wondered when I was watching the video, you sat there at one stage, while I was writing and I thought, I thought, what are you thinking? [speaker005:] Why didn't you ask me? [speaker002:] Because I didn't notice it when I was actually doing it. [speaker005:] Oh right. [speaker002:] on the video because I was writing, I wasn't watching you, [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I was writing and on the video you're sitting there going. Well what's going through your mind she writing the answer to those questions. And as you said, firing one question after another. [speaker005:] Do you think that was the reason why you missed it? write it down. the reaction to... but if you do see them you should always ask, you say you're very puzzled aren't you. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] well I'm a bit puzzled why, why you want to know all this... and you think because I haven't given, given a good benefit that's why a good temporary benefit, that's why I'm puzzled, say well let me just take you back to why I'm h why I'm here, let me get out of our meeting you're gonna find this extremely valuable, perhaps for the first half we will spend time looking at your financial put you on the path to achieve financial. Well that's what we're here today to look at. [speaker002:] What's a good answer to that because I found a lot of people, we had that actually on our and one of them was that she. Now to put that into a phrase I found quite difficult to do er and but some people wouldn't question it but other people would say well what do you mean by that, what you know you plan for the future so that you can retire will be financially independent but it works and you your money work for you. [speaker005:] Means when it's put out to pasture [speaker002:] Give you an income Right... [LAUGHTER] Means you're gonna live in a field. [speaker005:] Means when you can choose when you retire decide you have to retire and you will enjoy proper, you can have an income erm which is going to be erm commensurate with what you are currently earning. [speaker002:] So that's the trouble. [speaker005:] Which say have er retire in dignity and comfort, that's the difference between being an old man and being a gentleman. [speaker002:] Is that right. [speaker005:] Rightio, well I hope you've rewound your tape so it's [speaker002:] alright don't worry about that [speaker005:] Anything else on that one? Manager whatever you call it. [speaker002:] Do we, do we move on to [speaker005:] Yes, we just move on to the what we need is a five minute preparation or whatever. [speaker002:] Do you, do you collect these? I'm not sure we're going to It would be useful to have it. [speaker005:] route now you see. [speaker002:] Yes I do I'm moving on I've got to find my way to somewhere else now. Well where did you start? [speaker005:] well hang on to it just in case but I'm sure you'll be getting these... [speaker002:] Do you do you want the one I did? Ah Do you want that one? Yeah I think they would be helpful [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Alright. [speaker002:] I always lock that one. I was surprised as much as anything Diane. you can keep it. [speaker005:] If, if that's wrong then I'm sure it [speaker002:] Well I'm not going to lose it [speaker005:] Right anyone know where cl [speaker002:] I'm trying to think where the one Oh that's his erm gentleman dialect I think [speaker005:] Dialect. [speaker002:] Picking up the dialect corpus, British corpus corporation they want to get have so many millions of spoken words so many millions of words. Excuse me. Yes. [speaker005:] it's the next one along [speaker002:] What did I do took my key out of here They've gone. This key here. No that's not mine, mine's only got fifteen on the back one there I thought, that's strange having one Now comes the problem. Yeah I was aware that that Is to know it all and can sit down and watch you two yes that's er It's a different world when you get out there. Right which is your tape? Have you just left that running? I'm not sure where it is film, we'll have to just er last week. Right [cough] hear and get you to the right part. I am not sure if we rewound it or what.... Want to keep on it... Well thanks a lot for your time Okay. and I'll see you goodbye.... That's something else I picked up from watching Okay Thank you for your help today, thank you for. I've never been used to doing that and it makes such a lot of difference when you actually speak to the people. Mm It helps a lot. I, I, what I try to do is switch off erm, and be myself. Mm mm. Because I find that er I can talk to people now, we chat away as I would in a pub, or in someone's house but then this is the bit that worries me. Just try and get the structure right I went wrong I'm just me when I go in, erm it's getting the structure in there. I mean, as you say, I cover all the points but because you don't do them in the right order perhaps you muck them up Oh yeah I er sat there and thought oh crikey [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] and I looked across at Barry and he got cross, cross, cross and Yeah, where did mine go I did one on Barry but I don't know what I've done with it. Yeah. but then suddenly you you're back into it. scripts Show me what you can do. It's this erm, as mentioned on the telephone the purpose of my visit is er erm the whole review should take about forty five minutes, well that's up to now are we supposed to say. Erm, well we've got, I'll take a few notes erm during this, during the course of our conversation, I'll take them away, study them in complete confidence and come back to you next week with my recommendations. Does this sound okay to you? [speaker005:] Well there, erm you, you've introduced your C C Q [speaker002:] And what are you going to do? Good start and I've found by adopting this approach I've been able to erm help clients in many areas which has saved them tax or making their money work harder for them. How does that sound? Well I've done it but all in the wrong order. Mm mm Well I'd like you to try that one today but I [LAUGHTER] go to pieces [] Now I, they could, erm one thing that I found b b b b picked up from doing my own reading and studying was that it's always good to go through with the customer step by step which is to a certain extent what we do do as you said the steps of it and that you will come back with your recommendations and that. Now I missed that out totally there so I've got a lot of learning to do on the scripts [speaker005:] Why do you think you missed it [speaker002:] I find that difficult [speaker005:] was it, was it, was it because he just er turned up, was it, was it, did that throw you off a bit? [speaker002:] Yeah there was no preparation for it really and I haven't learnt the scripts properly, [speaker005:] Right [speaker002:] they're not going in. Old habits die hard erm [speaker005:] Yes it's easier said than done [speaker002:] just going in and sort of lying by the seat of your pants. [speaker005:] And you can also get lost even if you do say the script because I said to Roger I, I've [speaker002:] Er [speaker005:] tried it to remember the script but then I [speaker002:] Hang on why [speaker005:] I've lost the statement of the person [speaker002:] What's going on here? [speaker005:] I'm just forwarding my tape [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker005:] There's yours. [speaker002:] No I know that's there cos it's Roger [speaker005:] Yeah yes... [speaker002:] I think you know I was con trying to concentrate on getting the facts over and doing it properly and not listening for the comments so much and thinking more you know what, what can I get out of this here erm [speaker005:] You get drawn into, you know, too much unnatural structure don't you really? [speaker002:] Mm. I've lost my buyer's guide. ... talk. So I didn't do any appropriate sociability there but I think what threw me off is cos I'd already said Helen to Stephen, I know you and everything and it was as if it was part of the same thing [LAUGHTER] Yeah [] and to switch off and then go into role play after [LAUGHTER] very strange []... I don't know percent. I think he's got. [speaker005:] Right. [speaker002:] I like Stephen Yeah. Really good company. I'll tell you why Yeah I, I would say, I would say that's yeah I'm trying to find paper somewhere, oh here we are it's much harder than erm the was. [speaker005:] Yeah, yeah. I would say that. Yeah certainly. [speaker002:] Yeah but that's what it's all about. He was more erm realistic as a real situation. Constructive as well. Yeah he was more real I mean when you sort of just sit there she, she threw me off track a few times but er he was more realistic so therefore. What's all this about bonuses bonus. [speaker005:] where's me structure gone, that's not me structure. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah I think it's erm Martin aren't I and he was going to throw you. [LAUGHTER] All over the place []. Yeah. I shouldn't worry. Just do your best I think Is your tape still running? Yes it is it's still going. It's you learn as much from your mistakes Erm you learn more from your mistakes than you actually learn from doing it right I think. You do, yes You do Yeah. I mean you know when it works... Is that your business card? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] picked up []. This must be an ideal situation for you actually cos we're being, we're sitting here being recorded and being watched so we're used to that sort of thing but not particularly conscious of it... What tape? I supposed you've a bit of scan Got a second tomorrow, so that's seven the whole bit the whole week is all about that until we get to the presentation... presentations, what does he mean by presentations? I don't know. Because two of them don't have to be done are they That's when they've got to do their, their resits. [speaker005:] They had the choice of doing it erm this afternoon [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker005:] but erm I don't think Joan, at the time, last night, Joan said that she was a bit too tired to Bob was having to just fit in with that so I don't know what they're gonna do. [speaker002:] last night I went half past ten cos I was at half past, quarter past one. I would have loved to have stayed because I really enjoy things like that, I love discos and get up and have a dance but I knew damn well that if I did I'd be absolutely shattered today and I, I just wouldn't be with it so I, I said to Matthew I'm going up. Yeah. So and I went down in the pool this morning... [speaker005:] At the time you enjoy it but then the next day you pay [speaker002:] Feel sorry about it yeah. Well that's why I did it because I don't often get the opportunity to go out and enjoy myself like that. Yeah. I was tempted now, no [LAUGHTER] Yeah basically why I didn't, I wasn't going to consume all that Guinness either. Well I remember feeling quite niffed because Matt was really off on Friday because he'd been up so late Yeah. and I think that rather ruined the whole afternoon erm role plays he was just so tired, he He was just out of it. He was like a zombie. He's a stroppy little sod isn't he? [LAUGHTER] Can be. [LAUGHTER] He was trying to, he was doing a laugh laughing fit last night, he was, he, he couldn't tell me what he was trying to tell me. Every time he told me, he started laughing. [LAUGHTER] Oh dear,we he wen got up [LAUGHTER] I still didn't know what it was he was trying to tell me... No, I was told before I came on the course, you're going on the course to learn to make maximum use out of it, you're not going on an almighty second holiday and booze up. We were given the, a right old drumming down before we left for here. Mm. You are all representing these branches Oh no it wasn't quite that bad. and you all. Get up at two, I don't think got much mention to them at all from what I was [LAUGHTER] Oh no, it was just because I went to talk to my manager about it before I went and I went through my diary with him and everything. My appointments and everything I'd got before I came along and erm he went on to tell me, if company. Mm. He feels I've got to take the client back [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] over to or something. waiting it's just getting on your nerves now, I was quite calm and relaxed Organize yourself a bit, what you're gonna say and how long you're gonna to the other. Well no, I started to do that, then I, then I thought we don't play the customer. If I get into a structure, if I, if I start trying to learn it I'm gonna do it all. [LAUGHTER] Slow it down. Mm mm. [LAUGHTER] Turn that off for a minute... I liked that bit you said, greeting an appropriate sociability,. yeah. Lorraine door. our erm assistant manager. They're agents Matt and I are in her team. Hard task master. Apparently there was a woman A B M at our branch until recently and apparently she was very good too. That's what Joan was saying the other day as a woman you have to be, otherwise you don't get there. Yeah and she's totally focused, she's er, I think she's got two children erm her husbands works, she's got two children she's brought up and developed herself to be a branch manager or assistant branch manager er she's got a degree... h now don't listen to this Lorraine, who it said [LAUGHTER] mid thirties [] [LAUGHTER] and actually she's excellent... and I like her... not like working for a female boss good people er the victim I'm the victim. Now you're the victim are you? I'm the victim. I think if you've, if you've got a woman that's then you're lucky How you going, alright, yes Whoosh.... Ta. [speaker005:] When you're ready, then. [speaker002:] There was a [speaker005:] Right so I'll be the timekeeper [speaker002:] Yes please [speaker005:] I think if it makes any difference to you we've got a thingy whirring away there. [speaker002:] No that's not a problem. [speaker005:] It's just recording [speaker002:] A thingy whirring away. [speaker005:] Yes [speaker002:] Yeah that's fine. Am I Erm you covered it slightly, you need to be sort of in, either any yeah Do you want ask you to sit in the other chair? Don't mind. [speaker005:] It's recording now anyway. [speaker002:] Yeah. [door knock] [speaker005:] Come in. [speaker002:] Got Roger instructions. [speaker005:] Hello Roger. [speaker002:] The chef. very much. Okay. garden you've got. I couldn't help noticing as I walked up the path. Is that you? [speaker005:] No no, they're the [speaker002:] Really. [speaker005:] I try not to though, I mean that's her responsibility, I buy the plants and she puts them in the garden, er in the. [speaker002:] What sort of hobbies do you do when? [speaker005:] Oh I do D I Y around the house you know I've got these rather er sexy lamps up there different aren't they. [speaker002:] Where did you see those? [speaker005:] . Do a job lot you know, four something, four eighty keeps the wife happy. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] They need to be, yes. Okay Martin, I know you are a busy man, may I call you Martin? [speaker005:] Well I'd rather you didn't actually. [speaker002:] Right okay that's no problem. Erm before we go, go into I've got to introduce myself, business card and the buyer's guide. Buyer's guide tells you that I work for and, and that I'm authorized to discuss 's products only. When I'm going through the recommendations with you. [speaker005:] Right.... [speaker002:] Sorry, do you want to know more? [speaker005:] Do I need to know more? [speaker002:] Well, no, it's yours to keep, you can read it a at your leisure erm if you've got any problems with that you've got my card and you can ring. [speaker005:] Great. Fine. [speaker002:] Before we er knuckle down to this list, tell me, how m [speaker005:] Knuckle down, what do you want to knuckle down to, business? [speaker002:] Before we talk about the er er getting to the purpose of our meeting, erm, how long were you, how did you come to in the first place? [speaker005:] I think er of time now what five or six years ago... came to presentation. I the time on the, think what they're saying was trying to act. [speaker002:] So you could say he recommended you to us? [speaker005:] Well he seemed quite keen on the company so. [speaker002:] We find that erm, most of our clients are recommended erm you may well have heard the expression we grow big, by being recommended. [speaker005:] Can't remember that. [speaker002:] You find that building erm er building and business buying our recommendation means we can erm, we don't need to advertise er, rarely need to advertise and the there for the benefits of our clients. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm in areas that erm produce charges erm interest benefits whenever possible. [speaker005:] Sorry what do we need to? [speaker002:] Increased bonuses. [speaker005:] Oh right, sorry. [speaker002:] Er so how does that sound to you, is does that way of building a business sound to you? [speaker005:] Erm well it makes sense but I'm, I'm glad you cos I mean my bonuses have gone down, I mean they haven't gone up then why is that? [speaker002:] Okay, can I come back to that erm on the bonuses a bit later on? [speaker005:] Alright okay yeah. [speaker002:] So erm going back do y felt that er mouth to mouth [LAUGHTER] recommendations [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] case you've got that have we? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Erm, erm we've found that erm [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] it's helped to build our business and erm in fact we thought it was a good idea er... during the course of this conversation that I'm having with you I, I you can introduce others to me.. Erm if and only if you find there's been some real benefits you. [speaker005:] Well I'll see what you can do first. get work. [speaker002:] Who said I'll answer me up the end and we can see how we go. [speaker005:] Yeah fine. Okay. [speaker002:] Right, erm the purpose of me being here, why am I here you may ask. [speaker005:] Why indeed? [speaker002:] Well it's better than telephoning and [cough] that we've erm, firstly, I want to say hello, I'm Roger I'm with the your policies. Erm, secondly to introduce you to our new review system whereby we do a complete item review the situation to see how your existing policies are working and how they fit into what you want out of life. Erm during the course of the meeting I'll take a few notes, erm book here. Erm I will take those notes away with me in the strictest confidence, go through them erm work out some recommendations, how you could hit the goals that you will go for at the end of the day. [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm and come back to you, perhaps in a week's time and you talk me through those recommendations. I found by adapting that approach erm I've been able to help clients in such areas as er tax saving or making their money work that little bit harder for them. [speaker005:] Well how would that in the future. If you could make my look, my money work a bit harder it would make sense to me, after all. [speaker002:] So, are you happy to proceed Sir? So can you take me thr [speaker005:] Oh yes sure. [speaker002:] Yeah. Okay good. Erm a few hard facts just to confirm first of all [speaker005:] Hard, what's a hard fact? [speaker002:] Your name and your address. [speaker005:] Oh right. So why are they called hard facts?... [speaker002:] As opposed to soft facts, soft facts can be something along the lines of what you want out of life er [speaker005:] What you're, what you're aiming for in the future? [speaker002:] Something could change er whereas a hard fact erm, it's very rarely you're gonna change your name. [speaker005:] What? I do. [speaker002:] What you've obviously got to why did I mention yeah, you marry, but if something's be down, isn't gonna change. Interest may change but. [speaker005:] So if the address changes, is that a soft fact or a hard fact? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] A good point, [LAUGHTER] I think that's a very good point []. [speaker005:] I think that's a medium fact. [speaker002:] A medium fact,I 'll I'll accept that. [speaker005:] Alright then. [speaker002:] But, but you ca can see what I'm trying to get at. The facts are gonna be something that, I have to write down here soft facts. There gonna be something that er, as you would tell me about. Really, oh fine, I don't drink [speaker005:] That'll be interesting [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] So it was erm Mr? [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And the first name's Martin. [speaker005:] That's right... [speaker002:] Are you married, Martin? [speaker005:] Sorry. [speaker002:] You are married and your wife's christian name's okay. The address is obviously. [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker005:] Key to the front door. [speaker002:] I spoke to you on the phone at work er have you got your home number? [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay erm and you're U K resident, you're [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] working here. Your wife? [speaker005:] My wife what? [speaker002:] She's a U K resident as well. [speaker005:] Yes she is yeah. [speaker002:] Your date of birth Sir is it the twenty first of August nineteen? Your wife's date of birth. [speaker005:] Er the twenty sixth of the sixth. [speaker002:] Okay, now we talked about you and your wife erm you told me that you had two well you've got two kids erm [speaker005:] Alex is the eldest, he's nine, er Catherine she's eight [speaker002:] Their date of birth. [speaker005:] Alex is the third of the third eighty five, Catherine's the. [speaker002:] That's Alexander. [speaker005:] Yeah... [speaker002:] Okay... So they're at school? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker002:] You've got the problems of going through their early life. Are they at private school or public school? [speaker005:] It erm school. [speaker002:] Right, what are your thoughts on private education? [speaker005:] I'm quite happy, I'm quite happy with the er the. [speaker002:] You wouldn't be er interested if er you were able to afford perhaps?. [speaker005:] No no, I li I think maybe higher education, that would be the first I'm quite happy. [speaker002:] To tell you the truth. [speaker005:] I'd like to, they may, they may not want to sixteen. Very possibly. [speaker002:] Yes okay. Erm health-wise [speaker005:] Er have just been in hospital this last three or four years. [speaker002:] Three or four years. You [speaker005:] Why I had too much. Oh no, just keep calm, that's all. [speaker002:] Erm so your, your state of health er have to go to hospital go to the doctor? [speaker005:] What do you mean? [speaker002:] Will it create problems? [speaker005:] No. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No [] and, and your wife? [speaker005:] She's fine. [speaker002:] no problems. [LAUGHTER] Right. Do you smoke? [speaker005:] Er she does, I don't. [speaker002:] How many does she smoke? [speaker005:] About five a day. [speaker002:] hobbies. [speaker005:] Pastimes. Well I do a little bit of yachting. [speaker002:] Yachting? [speaker005:] Yeah, there's a boating lake nearby in the big white sea as it were down there. [speaker002:] what you just go on your own? [speaker005:] Well I take my son, he comes with me, he for me. [speaker002:] So you're? [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You've got to join. [speaker005:] Oh yes you come in, it's, it's not a membership, you just go along and pay your fees and. Well it on my doorstep and that makes sense to use it, so I sort of wriggle down there and have to keep me out of er Southampton er Boat Show. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] it costs you much [] No I don't it's just a, a small. [speaker002:] erm so you got it? He won't? [speaker005:] catchment is. [speaker002:] Is she? [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's the television? [speaker005:] Yes. Afraid so, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Don't we all? Okay erm what sort of work do you do?. [speaker005:] Erm I'm a Technical Author. [speaker002:] Technical Author? [speaker005:] hate this. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] diagram make sure you have part of the engine room. Well I do at the. [speaker002:] I see you write it up or you draw the pictures? [speaker005:] I write yeah. photographs to the drawings, then I write the technical explanation of how artwork that interrelates with each other. [speaker002:] [cough] Marvellous how they do that. at school I used to trying to do something er

[Rod:] Your Royal Highness, Ladies and Gentlemen my name's Rod I normally masquerade as the Chief Racing Coach for the Royal Yachting Association but I'm not here in that capacity this afternoon but the coordinator rather a grand title for the Year of Youth Sailing and I've been asked to give you a short ten minutes or so briefing on where we're up to with th this project this year erm I know there are many familiar faces around so I apologize to those of you that may know some of this information already. We're already eleven weeks into the year and er so my talk's gonna centre on what we've done so far and what we expect to happen. The idea came in nineteen ninety two, the early part of nineteen ninety two er from Doctor Frank er who was er sitting on the Race Training Committee who [cough] approached it from the point of view we need to obviously broaden the triangle on the competitive side. And very quickly talking about it amongst the staff and er the other committees it would seem that [cough] it ought to have a far broader remit than just on the racing side so the first thing that I'd like to emphasise is that this year of youth sailing is involves all the outgoing grass roots divisions of the R Y A, that is windsurfing, racing, training and the development divisions and the regions and the clubs and the recognized teaching establishments, so it really is an all encompassing er er scheme. All types of sailing boats as well, I know that it's easy to think of that we're only dealing in optimists and toppers er but all types of sailing boats and all abilities, both disabled, youngsters and all types of organizations. The aims which I put up there, I won't go through each one, I think are hopefully fairly self explanatory, the, some of those are going well and some of them still need a hard push, a hard push from us and a hard push from the clubs and the teaching establishments. Those of you that have children or er are involved in education in any way at the moment will be well aware of the cut and problems that are going on er within reorganization within education in this country at the moment and I learnt to sail through the National School Sailing Association a long time ago er and thousands and thousands of youngsters have done that over the years. That Association in common with outdoor education centres are under severe pressure. My view is and it's a widely held view within the association and, and the informed clubs is that if we let that situation go on and do nothing about it we will have a decreasing er number of people going and number of people going sailing. Not now, not next year but in the next twenty years so there are a problem with schools, there are problems, I think, with changing leisure habits er people, the way that people take their leisure has changed over the last twenty years and not always have clubs, organizations and sailing schools taken account of that in, in their programme, especially with youngsters and I have to say I also believe there is apathy in some clubs and other organizations, not every club has an active youth sailing scheme and I believe that any club that doesn't either must be extremely popular because of its er prices of beer or, or some other reason or it may not exist perhaps in twenty years' time, so I think it's an ext extremely important topic brought about by the maybe, without being melodramatic, some of the stuff that we're reading in the papers about youngsters these days but looking at it from a purely selfish sailing point of view if we're to get more youngsters into the sport even if we're to hold our ground we've got to make a big effort over, over this year and, and it's important make sure that it runs on for future years.... Okay how we're going, how have we attempted to deliver the goods to the population at large? As you can see, so far six hundred organizations have registered with us and what we've done is put them in a rather, rather flash booklet and the idea is that youngsters, their parents, teachers, youth leaders, scout leaders, anybody, gets hold of one of these booklets and in it, it tells them how to go sailing. There is one basic thing that they need to do, they or their parents, that is pick up the telephone and ring a contact, that's all they have to do because within here there are people ready to receive those er t telephone enquiries and get the youngsters on the water. Many of them free but not all. There are, different clubs have different policies and we haven't laid down what way they should go. We've, we've got the erm, we've got the six hundred organizations running so far about three thousand events, probably a few more if you count every single er course that some of the [LAUGHTER] training schools [] are running but in terms of key events I'm very confident in being able to say there are three thousand events running around the country about half of which are new and that's the important thing so about fifteen hundred new and inaugural events that didn't go on last year or the year before... Belinda the R Y A Public Relations Officer has been coordinating the public relations campaign and these days to get the young pe young people and those young people whose parents don't sail because it's to get at the people whose parents do sail, you've actually got to get in the media and er we've been on Blue Peter, we've been on Going Live another children's programme on a Saturday morning and [clears throat] [speaker002:] [cough] [Rod:] and we have done other things that you see up there already and we aim to do more and get into specialist magazines like the Young Telegraph. The probe problem is having had a big initial launch the reality is that we're now going to drip feed the P R throughout the year and there are several good stories coming up which I'm not gonna tell you er [clears throat] that we hope the, the national and local press will pick up on. It's obviously very important that some stories are big enough to break if you're lucky in the national media but more important each of the clubs and sailing schools can get it in their local events because they're only too happy to take er provide [LAUGHTER] the stories []. Ha the information that we've put out so far were our second reprint of the er of the black booklet of which there'll be twelve thousand, they are quite an expensive item and, but our feeling was that er in order to sell the thing you've got to do it properly and er spending money doesn't come easily but er er in order to market the thing er thought that was the, the way to go and we've done other things, stickers and badges and posters and so on and so forth, the normal sort of things but we've really tried to spread these around the country and get the message that it's a vibrant young er interesting fun thing to be involved in for young people. We tested this out by taking it around the office and the people in the office thought it was a bit boring we er thought it was great for the youngsters who probably like it so er erm [LAUGHTER] and the merchandise we've actually, we've made up certain things, T-shirts and, and, and wacky items that again er relate to, to young people so that they get into the, the, the theme of the thing and the, the whole year carries forward on a, on a certain colour theme and, and, and so on, so er we've done our best as sailing coaches [LAUGHTER] not only learning to be marketeers []... again the money, where's the money come from? Well we were lucky in that we've been able to do, have a, a very good relationship with a company called well known in the marine side and they put in forty five thousand pounds into er the scheme and promised that before Christmas and that was reading the paper one day in November the, the Robert the National Heritage Minister saying that they may be, may, if you're lucky, going to put some money into sport and er so we contacted them and we were one of the first sports to get, had money doubled as they say in the bingo hall, so we er we now have ninety, ninety thousand pounds and which I wh has been distributed or will be distributed in the, in the following way... so that's how we're gonna spend it [LAUGHTER] and er these er, the administration represent we were basically overwhelmed with enquiries and s we took on a person in order to, to do it, the normal R Y A staff had already got enough on so we took on a girl called Sara who answers all the queries on the Year of Youth Hotline and erm we are also running the boat shows, the four or five N B L challenge which is the flagship event for our sponsors which is er I won't go into the, the details but is a, a talent fight, talent spotting event for under sixteen year olds around the country and it provided fleet of dinghies, the prize for which is a dinghy which is not, not a bad prize I think you'll agree. Information and promotion I have spoken to you about and the most important thing probably for the users besides us being able to promote what they're doing for nothing and that is grants, so we are about to write and er you will be able to hotfoot it back to your clubs if they are already registered. We are about to write to every club that's registered with us, tough on those that haven't, er that to er to, to, to come and er er fill in a form and get grant aid. We're talking about hundreds, not thousands here because there are six hundred clubs, so we're talking, but I think though we, we hope to be able to give significant amounts of money to pay for perhaps safety boats, perhaps instructors, perhaps rescue boat fuel, enough to kick-start these courses off which is important and those forms are going out at the end of the week and when the money's gone we'll stop giving the grants out. [LAUGHTER] Okay.... So what's the message we're trying to get across, what's the message you're trying to get across? Cos that's the important thing I think. So often we at the National Authority seen to be selling something which may or may not be you and the clubs er and the Class Associations round the country thinks important. I hope you think that this is important [LAUGHTER] more important to you as it were than it is, is to us because you the clubs and the sailing schools really really must take these sorts of messages on board, not perhaps all of that list there but I would pick out erm that the message that we want to get across to young people, I would pick out the words fun, the words challenging, the words safe, alright. Many people who have not been sailing before, many parents are worried about their youngsters, think that it's dangerous and whatever and we have all this information, we have all these checks, we have a wonderful education scheme er within our own organization in this country and we should go out and sell that and I think we, a lot of it's going on already and I don't decry that and we need to just market that a little better to get more youngsters on the water because once we get more youngsters on the water the pyramid gets wider, the building gets higher, so that's an important issue... [clears throat] [speaker002:] [cough] [Rod:] well okay well just to wind up, I mean I've been involved in this and people within the R Y A and the office for a good six months now and we fell well down the line, the reality is hardly any courses have started yet and there's hardly any youngsters been on the water. I thought driving up today would have been a good day but the reality is that it is not going to start until Easter time. We've done a profile of the courses and guess what they all happen in the school holidays, so this isn't, this isn't over yet in fact for all the user groups, for you, the clubs and the organizations, it really does need a push from you, you must by and large are the deci decision makers, the club officers and I would ask you urgently whether or whether or not your clubs already got its name on the list, to actually support the people within your club that are laying these things on. If there isn't anything being laid on, chase it and perhaps get something laid on this summer in the holidays and whatever. Erm I think it's, I hope you'll agree, that it's absolutely essential and, and I hope that you, your reward will be the [LAUGHTER] smiling faces of the youngsters [] when they come off the water during the year. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Rod:] Commodores, Ladies and Gentlemen before we commence the business of the Annual General Meeting I'd like to remind members of the very great honour that was bestowed upon the Association at the end of last year when we were granted the right to wear the red ensign defi defaced with the crown. This is a quite unique privilege as the list of clubs and organizations granted the right to wear special ensign was closed several years ago. The Secretary of State for Defence reopened a list as an exception to allow the Association to mark the fortieth anniversary of the accession of Her Majesty the Queen, our patron, to the throne. The ensign is flown at R Y A House and can be worn by vessels directly employed on R Y A business. I would now ask Her Royal Highness as our President to mark this very special award by unveiling our ensign to you the members of the R Y A at this A G M. Your Royal Highness... [speaker002:] [clapping] [Rod:] Thank you Ma'am.... [speaker002:] Well good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen I am delighted to welcome you to the R Y A's Annual General Meeting if I may call the meeting to order and may I propose that for those who's convening the meeting printed on the front page of the annual report and accounts ninety, ninety one ninety two to be taken as read. Thank you. During the course of er this meeting you will hear from the Chairman and the Honorary Treasurer and we may well cover an enormous amount of the grounds that is relevant to you as commodores, members and officers of the Association and it might be worth, I am going to avoid what he's trying to avoid most of that area because I believe they cover it in greater detail and give you more of an opportunity to find out precisely what's been going on. This of course is post-Olympic year. Now there are occasionally criticisms from members that there is too much concentration on the elite end of sport in the Sports Federation in this instance the R Y A but what is important about the is an effort to produce a very high standard as a finished product so to speak to go to the Olympics but it also helps to concentrate minds on the bit that is missing before and help to recycle everybody's concentration into the training area and Rod has just been talking about the year of youth and of course it follows on very naturally in a post- olympic year to launch that year of youth. Not all of those people by a long way have any olympic ambitions but is nonetheless an important part of the perspective and indeed at the triangle that we need to support. That's the overall and rather special context of this year in, in the year of the youth but every year is an important from the point of view of commodores and clubs and the amount of work that ac goes on on the ground through supporting causes and the effort to recruit membership and it's in that rather mundane day to day part of R Y A membership that I would like to congratulate you first... I think all of you have worked extremely hard and the reports reflect the success achieved and I would particularly highlight the increase in membership, now that obviously hasn't been easy and this does require a huge effort of, a consistent effort and it's not something you can just apply every now and again. Members don't tend to respond very well from that basis. This is a continuity and causing support for your members and that increase reflects enormous credit. I'll come back to that in a moment because we still only enrol a rather tiny proportion of those active in our sport... but to go back to the point about training. Can I also highlight the fact that over a hundred thousand people attended R Y A training courses of one sort or another last year. Now it is something that you could find out for yourself but on the other hand it is there and I would like to highlight it and bring it to your attention. The other thing that tends to happen in post-olympic years is people look at rule books and different types of competition and there is a sort of atmosphere of I think we ought to change things. Well change is fine as long as it's done sympathetically and actually has some purpose. Erm it's a difficult balance, change is very rarely popular and quite often it's only ever talked about but sometimes it happens and even then it's not popular but a balanced and open mind is required to approach change but perhaps more important, and this isn't always mentioned, suggestions about change tend to come from rather specific areas and there are rather specific interest groups which may start the process of change [cough] the point about membership is that you ought to be able to comment on those suggestions of change and get involved with them on a broad basis. Er those sort of reactions, if we don't get them changes might happen anyway and you won't like them. It is very necessary to exercise membership, particularly in, in those areas, change can just as easily be motivated from your members not just special interest groups and it is important to look at it in, in the broader sense. Your officers has members from all over the country will try to apply a broad view but there are changes that will be necessary but they will attempt to do them in the most sympathetic and most broadly based way. Competitions are an important part of club activity obviously. For your younger members often very important but competition is part of the process. It is also part of the process of learning because it again concentrates their mind on what they need to do better... fine. Take it on past, the sort of club competitions to major regattas and you come up against sponsorship. This in turn creates its own difficulties. At a local level sponsors so often are involved in the club on a more direct way but it isn't always seen as a problem and can be enormously beneficial to both parties. Sponsorship on a wider basis is much more difficult to manage. Sponsorship should of course be the icing on the cake, there should be enough in, in competition in regattas and themselves but people are interested enough to go and to support and that sponsorship actually allows you to do things that you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. The danger of course is that sponsorship for itself, in itself becomes more important than the actual regattas. Th we must be able to learn from this period, particularly a partial austerity mm but these events are sound events in themselves and that we're not just doing it for the sake of the sponsor or attracting a sponsor and that it's not, in itself, completely necessary to have a sponsor otherwise the competition wouldn't exist. This is a difficult balance. It's going to be difficult for everybody but I believe that this is a period when again it rather highlights er the priorities in terms of what clubs and members actually want and what they are prepared to work for. On a slightly different theme, left to our own devices and left to the club's devices this Association and membership have always been very proud of our own record of educating and not legislating and that we have an ability er to instill in people a need to gain information and training along the way. From further afield there are going to be pressures to change that situation, particularly from Europe in either actual or proposed legislation. Th that for most of us would be very sad and it is your Association and it is the only substantial body that there's representing you as individual sailor but is attempting to fight off that unnecessary legislation. I need hardly say that that's not going to be done with courtesy of the odd telephone call. This requires real attention to detail and some concentration on, on that problem with experts who know how to deal with lobbying process in Brussels. There are a few people who claim even to know about the lobbying process in Brussels. [LAUGHTER] I would have think it's probably still acclaimed [LAUGHTER] but it does highlight a need and I'm not going to tread on the Treasurer's toes in this instant but certainly that will add to the financial burden of running the Association but if its to increasing its lobbying power and authority over those in positions of influence, then above all we do need a very large membership. Er it has been brought to my attention that the R S P B erm which I think you all know that, for one reason or another, can call upon the membership of eight hundred and seventy thousand individuals and our sport was something between two point five to three million active participants, slightly depending on the definition, has only about two percent as personal members of the R Y A contributing directly. I mention those figures, the need for a large membership is self evident and I know that you are making tremendous efforts to increase that membership. Some suggestions a that membership should be mandatory for those holding R Y A positions and appointments, well, that is certainly up for future debate but I do look forward to the day when our membership is truly representative at the individual level as it is currently at the club level and we w shouldn't forget that the R Y A is its membership. Well it doesn't exist by itself. Can I close by thanking Rod our Chief Racing Coach for what I thought was a very excellent presentation of the R Y A Ye Year of Youth Sailing and I have great pleasure in launching that initiative for ts er this year's Earls Court Boat Show... again it seems horribly self evident that it's only through increasing the involvement of the young that we assure thriving clubs and associations and classes for the future but nobody up here is going to say that it's easy and I believe though that the work that the official, the officers and the R Y A put together will make it easier than it once was and I hope that the literature that they have put together and the programme that they have put together will be a help to all of you so please make use of it. That is one of the roles of your Association and it is what your membership fees go towards and it is there to be used and they've done their best so I hope it will come in very useful for you for this year and I wish you a very good year. [clapping] well item one is the minutes of the A G M nineteen ninety two... if there are any... queries, may I have them now or I will take them as read and sign them.... Thank you. To receive the report for the Council for the year ended thirtieth September nineteen ninety two. Can I ask Peter as Chairman of the Council to propose a doctrine of the report. [Peter:] Thank you Ma'am. Your Royal Highness, commodores, and members of the Association, may I begin my report by thanking you Ma'am for the time you have given to our sport, for being with us at our Annual General Meeting and for the address you have just delivered. We have a President who is charming, gracious and what is more important to me, a fellow sailor. We are indeed fortunate.... [speaker002:] Hear, hear [Peter:] Ladies and Gentlemen I will not waste your time by repr repeating my printed annual report to the Association which is on page four of your agenda papers. If you haven't read it you will have ample chance to read it at a later date and if you have, you would know what I was going to say. Our President has covered one or two major issues that concern us now and which will continue to concern us over the next few years. I can only emphasise the point that Her Royal Highness has already made on the requirements for us to have a much larger membership to allow us to speak with strong voice in the many debates we find ourselves involved on behalf of our sport whether it be windsurfers, dinghies, offshore sailing craft, motor cruisers, powerboat racing, anything that virtually goes on the water we look after. This must be the major object of the Association during my chairmanship is to increase our individual membership which we need so much to re to our representation at a high level. Her Royal Highness has also highlighted the R Y A year of youth sailing which she launched at the Earls Court Boat Show. The youngsters are our sea call of the future and we must grasp the initiative with both hands. As my hair turns grey and falls out I must also put in a plug for senior sailors with earlier retirement [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] alleged increased time and affluence, it beholds us to pay attention to this influential body of citizens, perhaps next year Rod can organize a year of geriatric sailors. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Our sport is for all... this is not a slick statement of jargon but a fact, thanks to our boats sailors of all ages and all eligibilities can participate. Many people never race, just enjoy themselves pottering. We must look after not all of the sport, the high flyers, the starters, the beginners and those who just go out for enjoyment and potter. Your council occasionally suffers comments about the age of some of its members but the fact remains that to a man or woman your council members are current sailors or actively involved in the sport and this must be good for sport. Over the past twelve months it has been my great privilege to become more closely involved with those with disabilities, I have seen the enormous efforts being made to encourage participation at a very high competitive level as well as tremendous strides being made at many clubs to bring disabled people into sailing at all levels. This is an area where we can make much more progress and I'm delighted to see the advances that have already taken place. Those of you who have not yet started the programme for the handicapped, please join in and spread our sailing skills to all. Mention of sport for all reminds me of the tremendous debt owed for the volunteers of our sport. Over three hundred individuals give their time freely to support the R Y A where they are experienced on one central committee or another. At least a similar number give the same service to the sport in our thirteen regions nationwide. If one then adde adds the volunteers who man and manage the clubs, organized regattas and ordinary races, the bosuns, the rescue crews, the and other sailing schools and instruction that goes on all o all over place, the end the list is endless. The dependence of our sport upon these expert volunteers is clear for all to see. I would like to thank you all at this time on behalf of the Association and the sport we represent for all your efforts you make for us in an unpaid capacity and time given voluntary to all. May th the Corinthian spirit continue in our sport for many days to come. Our President has referred to many of the problems we currently face and will continue to come up against in the future. I will not dwell upon them but will re-emphasise what has already been said and ask you to give us all your support. We need an undivided sport, there have been a few occasions, sadly, when clubs and associations have followed marginally divisive lines as we attempt to represent the sport similar bodies which does not help our cause. We also need a large membership to further and strengthen already a very effective lobby within government, Europe and the sport. May I close by thanking Her Royal Highness, my colleagues on Council, all my friends in our sport and our Association as well as our very loyal and hardworking permanent staff for all their efforts on behalf of the sport. Before I propose the adoption of my report, willing to take any important questions or comments.... As there seems to be no questions Ma'am, may I propose the adoption of the report. [speaker002:] Your Royal Highness, Ladies and Gentlemen, I have much pleasure, not only seconding the adoption of the report but complimenting Council on an excellent which I did read. [LAUGHTER] The equivalent meeting. Hear, hear Anyone against? Thank you. Right item three which is to receive the accounts for the year ending [clears throat] thirtieth September nineteen ninety two and report of the auditors. So before this motion is proposed may I ask Mr John of to read the auditors' formal report. [John:] Your Royal Highness, Mr Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen. Auditors' report to the members of Royal Yachting Association. We have audited the accounts set out on pages eight to fourteen in accordance with auditing standards. In our opinion the accounts give a true and fair view of the Association's affairs at the thirtieth of September nineteen ninety two and of the surplus and cash flows for the year ended on that date and have been properly prepared in accordance with the Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five and that report has been signed Chartered Accountants, registered Auditor. [speaker002:] Thanks very much indeed. So may I call upon Chris, the Honorary Treasurer to move the adoption of the accounts. [Chris:] Thank you Ma'am. Er your Royal Highness, Chairman, Commodores, Ladies and Gentlemen, the accounts have been circulated and they are to be found on pages eight to fourteen with the report and there are copies around the room. I believe that the accounts, whilst complying as John has just told us with the Companies Act, do give, I hope, as full and an informative picture as possible and therefore I don't intend to talk about them in detail. The incoming expenditure account on page eight contains good news and bad news. The good news is that the surplus of a hundred and ninety three thousand six hundred and eighty seven pounds after tax is the largest ever in the Association's history. The bad news is that there were two hundred and thirteen thousand pounds' worth of non- recurring income items to reach that and this means that the Association's routine activities ran at a deficit of twenty thousand pounds or thereabouts. This is a small amount in relation to our subscriptions which reached one million pounds for the first time but it does pose problems. Firstly, there is an extremely long lead time before a subscription increase works its way through to our income and expenditure account. If there was a resolution on the agenda today to increase the subscription, and I hasten to add there isn't, but if there was then that increase by convention would take effect on the first of January nineteen ninety four but the full value of the increase would not reach our income and expenditure account until the year nineteen ninety five to ninety six and this means that we are not well placed to respond to short-term financial problems.... The Chancellor yesterday very kindly did not put V A T on books and periodicals but had he done so that would have the effect of taking more than one hundred thousand pounds out of our accounts in the current year without us being able to do anything about it... and it does seem to me that we should be considering asking the members in general meeting to pass to the Council of the Association the right to set and increase subscriptions and having properly advised the members thereof to fix the effective date of such increases, otherwise we are very badly placed to respond to short-term problems. However, the major problem, and you Ma'am have already touched upon this as well as the Chairman and I am sorry to be repetitive but we do serve all yachtsmen, two and a half to three million of them whilst being financially supported by only sixty five thousand of them. The only satisfactory long-term solution must be to secure a hugely increased membership of the Association. The R Y A doesn't need an enormous subscription income and so if we could increase personal membership to say four hundred and eighty thousand, which happens to be the aggregate membership of our member clubs, this could be at a very much lower individual subscription and this in turn would facilitate selling membership to the nearly two million yachts persons who are not members of clubs. I believe that we have got to go for this strategy if we are continue to fight the freedoms which are the root of our yachting. The alternative of higher personal subscriptions does not, I believe, hold out the likelihood of sufficient income to meet the mounting costs of protecting yachtsmen and their rights. Coming back to reality Ma'am and the balance sheet. The R Y A is financially strong, following from the good results of last year, the reserves passed one million pounds for the first time and those will enable us to continue with our work for yachting while we deal with the problems that I have touched upon. There is no need for any concern at the present time but the problems have got to be addressed because they won't go away. So Ma'am I have pleasure in composing the adoption of the accounts and I'll endeavour to answer any, answer any questions on them.... [speaker002:] Right, thank you very much er Chris fo and the proposal is from th the Treasurer, can I have a seconder please? Ma'am, may I have er pleasure to second the adoption of the accounts? May I have the approval of the Meeting? Anyone against? Thank you.... report to you. Ma'am. [Peter:] Commodores, members, I have a great announcement to make, there have been no other nominations for President of the Association. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] I am pleased to say, therefore I would like to propose that her Royal Highness be re-elected with acclaim, President of the Royal Yachting Association. [speaker002:] [clapping] Thank you very much Chairman and thank you all very much and I do hope your members realize what you are doing up here. [LAUGHTER] It's your fault. No it's... I might, I would, take this opportunity to say how much I appreciate your hospitality when I have the opportunity to visit the clubs er it d they are always very enjoyable occasions and I much look forward to them. As you realize six hundred clubs, the chances of my getting round all of them, ha five hundred. Yes ar are not that good but I'm working at it on a sort of regional basis erm but you may have to keep me here for a very long time in order to achieve it. I don't suggest that I think I should keep going on a year by year basis. [LAUGHTER] Thank you. Item five erm I'm also pleased to say that er Chris was the only person nominated to be Honorary Treasurer and it would give me great pleasure er to propose that he be elected Honorary Treasurer and may I have a seconder for that proposal please. Your Royal Highness South West Region. It gives me the greatest pleasure to second the nomination of Chris as the Honorary Treasurer. Thank you very much. May I have the approval of the meeting please?... Thank you. Item six is the announcement of the results er the Council Election and I will ask the Secretary General to announce those. [speaker006:] Ma'am the four elected by the life members of the order, Mr P J, P A, L M, and M. Er in the club's East Midland Region there was an election and Mr Garth was elected as the representative for the year. Er the remainder of the regional representatives are in the agenda and I suggest they can be seen there and not repeated here and if I may then go on Ma'am, Council asked that we would in fact announce the results of the windsurfing committee election at the A G M and again in alphabetical order a Mr, Mr, Mr, Mr, Mr and Miss [tape change] Bill North West Region. [clears throat] I have pleasure in proposing that Messrs be appointed Auditors and the authority is delegated to the Council to fix the remuneration of the Auditors. [speaker002:] Thank you and a seconder. [Frank:] Dr Frank Weymouth Sailing Club, I would like to second the proposition that Messrs continue in office. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you, can I have the approval of the meeting.... Anyone against? Thank you and may I add my thanks to for, for their work, very much appreciated and I know the Treasurer would agree, thank you.... Item eight, may I ask Richard the Chairman of the Develop Divisional Committee to introduce and put the resolution to the A G M? [Richard:] Thank you your Royal Highness.... Your Royal Highness, Mr Chairman, Commodores, Ladies and Gentlemen, I am not absolutely sure whether this microphone system will work if I stand what I do know is, however, that I would be a larger target for you and under the circumstance I will, if I may remain seated. Historically, the minimum subscription Association's affiliated organizations and clubs has been set that twice the personal member's subscription and after a period of two years' grace it's the Council's wish that this balance is re-established so that the relativity returns to that which existed prior to the increase in subscriptions that was proposed at the A G M in nineteen ninety one. Are there any questions of this erm resolution before I put it to the meeting?... Thank you very much then I would ask and would put the ordinary resolution that the minimum annual subscription for member clubs, past associations and other affiliated organizations be increased from twenty four to thirty two pounds. Thank you Ma'am. [speaker002:] Can I have a seconder? Ma'am I would like to erm second that resolution, I believe that the traditional two to one relationship is a reasonable reflection of the costs and that it would be sensible to restore the balance to that which it was before. May I have the approval of the Meeting? Anyone against? Thank you very much. now. Right... as you know presentation of the R Y A awards. Is that in the way, I'll just move it out of the way. [Frank:] A citation for an R Y A award, Major Tom. The name of Tom has been synonymous with sailing in Weymouth longer than he might wish to remember. He inherited the same tradition from his father a founder member of Weymouth Sailing Club and its Commodore in the late nineteen twenties. Tom has been a member of Weymouth Sailing Club since nineteen twenty eight and has served in it and in many other clubs in almost every role imaginable. I understand the roles include bar steward, cleaner of the heads, layer of moorings, boat builder and commodore. His sailing background includes membership of the Royal Engineer Yacht Club, the Mombasa Nivasher Yacht Clubs in Kenya, sailing in Austria in the early fifties including building nine one design sailing dinghies with the help of Austrian carpenters. It didn't say whether they sold them or not, the Royal Singapore Yacht Club in the mid nineteen fifties and then back to Weymouth. From nineteen seventy three to nineteen ninety two he was Chairman of the Charities Committee of the Yacht Clubs of Weymouth and played a leading part in organizing forty eight championships including fourteen R Y A Weymouth olympic weeks as well as twelve world and European championships. He has been a member of the Royal Dorset Yacht Club for the past twenty three years and is now an honorary life member. The list of boats he has owned and sailed includes Weymouth One Design, Falcons, ex boat, victory class, sharpees, scripts, Achilles, R N S A dinghies, Yachting World Day Boat and enterprises. In recognition of a lifetime of service to sailing and in particular distinguished service of the national sport through Weymouth Olympic Week and various world championships... the R Y A Award is presented to him, Ma'am, Major Tom. [speaker002:] [clapping].... [Frank:] A citation for the R Y A awards, Staveley, Staveley has roots that are more linked to the sea and the water than most of us. Born in the Clyde, not in it, with a seafaring background, he's messed about in boats from the start. His proper racing career began in nineteen thirty four as a regular crew on a twenty eight foot milne design. Apart from a short break for the war years, when he served in the Royal Navy, Staveley has sailed and campaigned throughout, presently racing in his Dragon. Following the War, Staveley also branched out into sailing administration. He is one of those individuals who has put even more back into the sport than he has taken out of it. He has served as Commodore the Cove and Sailing Club and of the Royal Clyde Yacht Club. He's been Commodore of the Royal Northern and Clyde Yacht Club and Vice Admiral of the Mud Hook Yacht Club. He led in amalgamating the Royal Clyde with the Royal Northern. He has been associated with the Clyde Yacht Club's Association for a quarter of a century and headed the team which organized the nineteen seventy three Clyde and National Regatta, the largest event of its kind ever held on that famous stretch of water. He was a founder member and later Chairman of the Scottish Council of the R Y A, played the leading role in the nineteen ninety one R Y A You World Youth Champions and is a past President of the then National Flying Fifteen Owners' Association. As well as years of service to the R Y A,Scot di R Y A Scotland, Staveley has twice served in the R Y A Council and has been a distinguished member of the Yacht Racing Divisional Committee. He is currently a member of the Racing Rules Committee, he's Chairman of the National Judges Committee and is an R Y A U international judge. The R Y A award is presented for this impressive record of service on so many different sailing fronts. Ma'am, Staveley. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [Frank:] A citation for the R Y A Award, Philip, Philip is a past Chairman of the R Y A Powerboat Divisional Committee as well as a past member of the Central Management Committee and of the R Y A Council. Although he's no long he no although he no longer competes, he drove hydroplane at an international standard, was highly competitive and had many wins and top level events to his credit. He has been the national drivers' champion, the first national driver to exceed a hundred miles an hour with a five hundred C C hydroplane on Lake Windermere, won the B class championships seven times, the C class champion six times, the D class three times and the F class once. He has also represented Great Britain internationally on many occasions with conspicuous success. In the powerboat world his balance is a very active competitive career with service at club, national and international level in administration. He has been the Commodore of the Essex Hydroplane Club and Chairman of the R Y A Hydroplane Committee. Philip has been a member of the U IM 's Sports Commissions for many years and was the R Y A's delegate, the U I M, the international body for a similar period. He is Chairman of the UIM's Personal Watercraft Commission including Jenskies a particularly hot seat if ever there was one. He is still a very active member of the Powerboat Divisional Committee and is now in his twenty first year of continuous service to R Y A powerboat racing. Philip is an outstanding competitor and a very devoted and dedicated servant to his sport, who has given sterling service over many years. His record makes him an outstanding candidate for an R Y A Award. Ma'am, Philip. [speaker002:] [clapping]... [LAUGHTER]... Right my item ten of course is Any Other Business.... Is there any other business? I have to, I have to make it er perfectly clear that it is not part of the official business of the meeting. You're welcome to bring up wh c [Bob:] Your Royal Highness, Bob Blackpool Sailing Club. I think my question will make it clear that I do understand that. What I wanted to say was that when I read the Annual Report I was rather surprised to find that there is no reference to the er report of the committee under the chairmanship of Bob, Bob on the organization of the R Y A and then I realized that it probably didn't come to the Council till after the end of the year that we have under consideration but it did seem to me that it has some contentious and some very interesting and rather good points in it and I wonder if we could be told how the consideration of it is getting on. Thank you. [speaker002:] Your Royal Highness, it follows to me er Council have debated the Riding Report er a lot of it they did not accept, many of the ideas were referred back for further reconsideration and that is in the hands of the Central Management Committee at the moment and we are proposing to develop the ideas and come back to Council and the wh whole report is not forgotten. In the meantime... organization changes of a management kind have been put into action at Eastley, so that certain, certain changes very quickly can be made which reflect the spirit of the report for improved management but your officers and Council are still considering the items that they feel n er should be reconsidered refined and developed. I don't the membership will want a revolution but what we do require is that evolution considered carefully so we don't stand still and keep our head in the sands and I give you insurance that is what is, is happening. Thank you. Who was that? Geoff Suffolk Water Sports Association, probably manage, is that better? You'll be on the record that way Geoff. Oh dear [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I'm into this not famous [LAUGHTER] er rubbish []. [LAUGHTER] Er Ma'am I think it would be helpful to pick up a point you made in relation to the R Royal Society of Birds, Royal Soci R S P B. I think many of us in the hall here er realize that we're probably the second largest users of the waters after the feathered variety and it's very encouraging to realize that er there are some, may I say, green members of Council and its committees er who are very foresighted. At a recent meeting of the, I believe the, first of the Estuaries Management Committee Meetings for the Orwell and the Stour I was approached by the R S P B representative and was delighted to be asked, how soon is the pamphlets that we're jointly publishing coming out and I said, oh that's a jolly good idea, what's happening, and he tells me that the R Y A's name is to be published with the R S P B and this can do nothing but help our image as we will all appreciate in here, perhaps we need to remember that the gun clubs call themselves, the Gun and Convers Conservation Societies, the wide wise wild fowlers call themselves the Wild Fowlers and Conservation Societies, perhaps we should be the Royal Yachting and Conservation Society and join in with that R S P B publication for I believe quite a very small sum relative to the total outlay. Thank you Ma'am. Thank you. So do No send, I think Chairman and erm cruising general purposes. cruising general purposes may have. Thank you Ma'am, I did er put this with, this request before Council and it is going through the er proper channels, shall we say, and we'll be going ahead. Thank you. Your Royal Highness, it is, it is, it is interesting that when I attended the Annual General Meeting last year of the Boats Organization, the fact that I said that yachtsmen was a Con Conservation Body as well surprised them and since that time we have having collaboration with them er more and more and this is to be welcomed because we all want to sail in nice surroundings. Hear, hear [Rod:] Roger Tollersbury Mud Club and I kid you not erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] we are a group of beach crawlers [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [clears throat] it's following on from what Geoff was saying er and I think it's perhaps worth mentioning something about coastal zone management and estuary management. Erm in the last year or so, erm, one has been confronted with this idea which has been promoted from certain quarters that the water space is entirely unmanaged. All these people that tear about on the water on a Sunday don't know what they're doing and are in desperate need of someone to manage them. I have, however, pointed out that there are things like nautical charts, voyage systems, harbour regulations etcetera etcetera which is a form of management albeit self management. I will give you an example of what one might be confronted with in the future from, from a piece from the Environment Committee in the House of Commons' Report on Coastal Zone Planning and Management and it says here, [reading] we fail to see what is impractical about treating the seabed as submerged land an opinion shared by the Royal Town Planning Institute no less and if planning authorities can deal with issues like public rights of way, aggregate extraction multiple use on land, they should be able to cope with rights of navigation and extraction of sea []. Now I have considerable respect for the House of Commons' Environment Committee but I think on this occasion they must have been tired and emotional when they wrote that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [clears throat] The point of issue is that estuary and coastal zone management is a reality and what seems to be happening is all sorts of different plans are popping up on various estuaries and Geoff knows them well now because he's been involved with the one on the Stour and Orwell and what is happening is that these are starting at local level so the first contact with sailors may be from a local authority or someone at local level. So it may be the Regional Association or perhaps the local estuary er Sailing Association is first contacted and what will happen er when one is contacted is that you will come into contact with environmentalists and conservationists and not all environmentalists and conservationists are quite as af affable and conciliatory as I am, some can be quite confrontational and therefore there will be the need for a considerable amount of lip biting and self restraint. Er in fact I think John perhaps ought to introduce a, a course of self restraint for estuary management negotiators erm so that they can have er some pre-training before they go into this forum. I of course will be, be available to er hurl abuse at these people [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] so that they are fully trained and ready to handle the problems that might arise erm there is, however, cause for some er optimism and I refer specifically to the recreational page from the Estuaries Consultation Document from English Nature and in one of their er proposals and objectives they say encouraging self regulation and observance of Code of Practice by local clubs and groups to avoid clon conflict with and or disturbance to other users including nature conservation interests. Now if that is really saying to the water users that it's down to you, there are genuine concerns of conservation and I think they are, there is a real problem in some areas. The important thing is for people to listen to the genuine concerns, sort out the, the real issues from the power politics and then hopefully go forward in, in a, in a manner of conciliation. Perhaps in closing erm I would just er repeat with your permission Ma'am er a piece from your nineteen ninety er presidential address and it says, [reading] as yachtsmen we must care for the environment, it is fair to say that most do but images are created by the bad news. People who have grown up with the sport when the pressures were not too great perhaps do not always think of others. Our craft are mostly environmentally friendly and those with craft that are less so will have to think seriously about improving them. I feel that if we are not careful, outside pressures with no understanding of people's responsibility in their own areas would get involved which would be a shame from everyone's viewpoint []. I think that's extremely true and extremely sound advice and I hope we can go away today bearing that in mind. Thank you. [speaker002:] The questions. Was there a question? [LAUGHTER] I was rather flabbergasted that anyone had paid any attention to what I had said. [LAUGHTER] Excuse me for that er actually erm and I am grateful to you for pointing out really an area which is always going to cause erm a degree of difficulty. I rather like your idea of a course. [LAUGHTER] I think it would come in useful for people in, in all sorts of areas [LAUGHTER] erm particularly with planners but there is no doubt, and I, and this is no joking matter, that there are an awful lot of agencies of one sort or another who are finding that they are actually having to get on with other agencies. In some areas this is called multi-disciplinary which is a good word but it, it's a bit formal but it does, it's just as difficult for them, everybody's been used to w functioning in their own little areas under their own headings, not least of course the bureaucrats who are particularly good at it because it makes life easier. The exercise of cooperating with the other people, even though they're in the same relative area than in this case it may be use of facilities for leisure, is not very easy and there may be a very very good cause to have a proper course in how to get on with other people, in these sort of cooperative ventures, so thank you for, for drawing our attention to it, it is an interes would be an interesting exercise to. Was there another hand up over... Your Royal Highness, Chairman, Commodore, Commodores, Members, I'd like, if I may, to say a few words on behalf of the R Y A Seamanship Foundation. Now this is your charity, it's called the R Y A Seamanship Foundation and it does have close links with the R Y A but it is independent and is d is dependent upon raising money from donations and other sources like that. We have had a very good year, thanks to the indefatigable Bugs sitting behind me, who is either fitting the boats out or going to New Zealand to win races or taking Guide Dogs for the Blind sponsored trips round greek flotillas er everything comes to him readily. We have had a wonderful year. In New Zealand er our team got a gold and a silver medal in the World Blind Sailing Competition and if you think of what that is in that was involved in achieving that er it is a very great matter. Much thanks to John and many others in the R Y A who helped with training and preparing er that er expedition and then in the World Disabled Championships in Barcelona, Kevin who has one of our Challenger catamarans, in which he's been national champion seven times. He won the gold medal there thanks to and a rather curious operation of the rules. I think it's fair to say he's the first one to acknowledge that but he did win the gold medal and as a result he became yachtsman of the year and at a time when there is very a much heightened interest in the problems of disabled and people with visual impairment it was a real boost for sailors who have those problems that we did so well during the year. Another very important factor was that at the Boat Show the R Y A announced that it was taking responsibility for the national coordination of all activities er for sailors with special needs, that's blind, deaf, disabled and there are many organizations who are working in this field but the R Y A is the coordinator. Now the trouble is that we have been the victim of those successes. The charitable world as a whole, as I'm sure many of you know, has been severely hit by the recession er our donations received this year are dramatically down on last year's and we operate on a shoestring but the provision of teams to go round the world, the provision of training, even with all the help we get from the R Y A still costs a lot of money. It would be absolutely disastrous if after the excellent work that's been done this year we were not able to maintain that. So what we have done is we have started something called Sailathon which is a word that Bugs made up erm and what it is is it's, it's an attempt to get yacht clubs, sailing clubs all round the country to do something themselves for the Sea Mission Foundation. We don't mind what it is, it might be a parent race, it might be a barbecue, it might be an auction. I hope it will be in all your club bars one of our bottles, we have distributed special bottles er sailor proof bottles I hope they are er which you put money in er very simply without any impediment and I do hope that all clubs will use those bottles and, and gather lots of money. Now we've distributed to over a thousand clubs. We don't need all that much from each club to keep us afloat but if we don't get your help, I am very concerned that in the present recession we shall not be able to keep up our work and in conclusion Your Royal Highness perhaps I could just say that the Seamanship Foundation is very grateful to the R Y A, to the Treasurer, Chris and particularly to the Senior Managers who have done everything they can to help the foundation, thank you. [clapping] Thank you very much well it's always a pleasure to hear of about the Seamanship Foundation and I'm sure that, as you might be saying, and er the need for the foundation's fundraising will be rather heightened this year as a result of last year's drop but I'm equally sure that you will get a tremendous amount of support from the members and on that note which I think is er also is an important method of concentrating our priorities and on the basis of we're extremely lucky to be able to pursue a really very enjoyable pastime with relatively few problems and that if we can get those opportunities to many more, who would otherwise not be able to enjoy and in fact frequently don't get to enjoy any other pastime, we should endeavour to do so and consider ourselves lucky that we can. Thank you. There are no more questions. Your Royal Highness sorry, Your Royal Highness er before we, we ask you to close this meeting I would like to ask our members to show their appreciation for the wonderful way you have chaired this Annual General Meeting, for your presence here and the gracious way you support the sport throughout the season. Will you join me with acclaim for our President. [clapping] Thank you all very much indeed and thank you particularly for making an effort to come and join us at the A G M, apart from the fact that it would be tedious in the extreme to look at an empty room, I do understand [LAUGHTER] that it's easy and it's never quite the right time for everybody and this is er tremendously widespread. We do appreciate the efforts you make to come to the meeting and in case you were worried the bar will be open in the Oak Room now. [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] Erm it's an adventure and it gives you a sense of freedom. [speaker002:] I don't want to do anything too energetic, I just like erm the sound of the water on the boat, wind in the sails [speaker003:] You can be as serious about it as you want to be. [speaker004:] It stops you sitting on the beach and just doing nothing all summer. [speaker002:] and I've been out of there for three hours and loved every minute of it. [speaker005:] You can go from being a total novice to someone who's got a reasonably good idea by the end of one week. [Suzanne:] When you're on your own you will thrive in it, it's a really good feeling. [speaker008:] All these people have discovered a passion for one of the most popular recreational sports, sailing, and as you can see, you can take it up at any age. Now sailing encompasses windsurfing, dinghy sailing and ocean cruising and if you've got millions of pounds to spend you can enter the Fastnet or the Admiral's Cup but whatever level or whatever part of sailing you want to take up, the basic techniques are best learnt in a dinghy or sail boat because it's less expensive and a lot more simple to operate and that's the purpose of this video to learn the most basic techniques as quickly as possible and to be at one with the wind. Now since I take to water like a duck does to orange sauce I enlisted the help of Suzanne here because if there's any fooling in the water to be done I'd rather she did it and not me. That's alright by you, isn't it Suzanne? [Suzanne:] Well it seems just a little bit unfair but I'm sure I could put up with it. [speaker008:] Well we're in the fabulous surroundings of Menorca and as well as being a wonderful holiday resort, it's also recognized by the Royal Yachting Association as a training centre. Now since I've just about learnt the difference between the sharp end and the blunt end of a boat, I've decided to go straight to the top and get some expert advice from the R Y A and who better than the R Y A's national coach John, Hi John. [John:] Hi. [speaker008:] First of all what exactly is the role of the R Y A? [John:] Well the R Y A is Britain's National Authority for the sport of sailing, simple as that, we look after every aspect of sailing and powerboating but our particular role in training is to set the syllabi pre to the courses, to train the instructors and to make sure the standard of teaching in every centre is up to scratch. [speaker008:] That beautiful white sail belongs to a Topper, doesn't it? Now why do the R Y A specifically recommend these sail boats? [John:] Well we know that a lot of beginners are put off by the complexity of larger boats and one great advantage of the Topper is that it's so quick to raise and easy to sail, so great for beginners. The second point is that the Topper's hull is made of polypropylene which is remarkably tough and resilient. Now that's important for sailing schools dealing with a lot of beginners. It's also important for the first time buyer. [speaker010:] Right I'm convinced such a good breed and you very kindly rigged this Topper up for me so well... you won't mind if I take it for a spin will you? [John:] Just hang on a minute. I know I said it's easy but it's not that easy. Before you go out there are some important safety considerations we should talk about and the first one is personal preparation. [music] [speaker010:] I think you're having me on now John. This is the Mediterranean so why am I squeezed into this number? [John:] Well in really warm weather a T-shirt and shorts may be enough but as it gets colder so you need to add layers of sweaters, trousers and top the whole thing up with a wind and waterproof spray suit but all that can make you a little clumsy, so the answer for most British sailors is a wetsuit like the ones that you and Suzanne are wearing. [Suzanne:] But why is mine slightly different to Howard's? [John:] You're wearing the summer shorty for greater freedom of movement for your arms and legs but Howard's got the full suit, for more protection in colder weather but they both work on the same principle. When the suit is wet, it traps a thin layer of water between the body and the suit and your body quickly warms that up to a comfortable working temperature but if you fall in when the suit is dry, the cold water can be quite a shock and so a good trick in cold weather is to put the wet suit on in a hot shower and then over the top you wear a spray suit again to keep off the wind and to protect the wetsuit. [speaker010:] Right, so exactly what are you wearing? [John:] Well if you take this I'll explain. The dry suit is great for winter sailing because you can wear lots of warm layers underneath and the suit keeps them completely dry by means of watertight seals at the wrists and the neck but you mustn't forget about the extremities either. In summer you'll need a sun hat to keep the sun off and in winter don't forget that about a third of body heat is lost through the head so a warm woolly hat is great. Bare feet are asking for trouble and so you need a pair of soft soled shoes which don't slip on the boat. [Suzanne:] Is wearing one of these suits going to help me stay afloat in the water? [John:] No, you should always wear personal buoyancy when going afloat in a small sail boat. For larger boats a life jacket like this one is fine, particularly if you are going further offshore but it's too clumsy to wear in a small sail boat like the Topper and so we prefer the buoyancy aid like this one. [speaker001:] So it's probably just as well that I didn't leap off in your boat because er even in this climate I, I could have ended up pretty cold and miserable especially if I'd fallen in. [John:] Well the thing is Howard, I don't think you'd have got very far if you hadn't understood how we put the boat together and so I think it's important that we look now into more detail at how to rig the Topper. [music] [speaker010:] It seems have done that John's intent on making us a nation of master mariners and under these circumstances, I think I'll adopt the old maritime adage, women and children first, so I'll it back, John can show you how to rig one of these things, alright, come on. [John:] Right Suzanne, now we're going to look at the various parts of the Topper and how they fit together. [Suzanne:] Right. [John:] We'll start with the hull [Suzanne:] Mm. [John:] one piece unsinkable, all ready to go in the water. [Suzanne:] Right. [John:] And we've got the files, the rudder and the daggerboard. [Suzanne:] Right, then I know steer the boat, I'm not quite sure what the daggerboards are for. [John:] That slots down into a hole in the middle of the boat but that just stops us drifting sideways. [Suzanne:] Oh. [John:] Then we've got the rig, the mast comes in two parts, the boom, the sail and all the ropes to put them together. [Suzanne:] And you're gonna show me exactly how it's been fixed together are you? [John:] That's next. First of all we slide the top and the bottom of the mast together, lining up the red dots and then we touch the halyard. The end of the halyard goes through the end goes through the end fitting and then we tie a little stopper knot in the end, then we bring the other end of the halyard down and make it up tight on this crease at the bottom of the mast. That holds the two halves of the mast together [Suzanne:] Yes. [John:] while we sleeve it into the sail. Okay Suzanne, keep on feeding it through.... Fine, now we're ready to tie the top of the halyard to the top of the sail. There are a few knots that we need to learn when we're sailing. This particular one is called a rail turn and two half hitches... it needs to be tight so that it doesn't come undone when we're out there. Okay Suzanne, now you had to slacken off the halyard to let me tie that last knot so if you could tighten it up again that will pull the sail up to the top of the mast. That's fine, now all we've got to do is to tidy up this end of the halyard and tuck it out of the way. You will see that most sailors are tidy around the boat particularly with loose ends of rope, and there is a very good safety reason. If you leave them lying around, then you're liable to trip over them. [Suzanne:] Fair enough. [John:] Now before we step the mast, we need to turn the boat more or less into the wind and that's a good chance for us to start thinking about where the wind's coming from. Where's it coming from today? [Suzanne:] At the moment it's coming from over there. [John:] That's right, so we need to turn the boat round and line it up like this. [Suzanne:] Right. [John:] Let's go. [Suzanne:] Okay. It is nice, isn't it? [John:] Now your next feature of the Topper is this special mast gate. We open it up like that, slide the mast in, slide it shut again, put the toggle in. A little knot here just so there's no risk of it coming out and off we go [Suzanne:] Right. [John:] so that's how it works, open it up and get the mast. You will probably find it easiest to slide the mast in at an angle like this until the collar fits neatly underneath the mast gate.... At the moment the sail is only attached down its needed edge but before we can use it, we've got to control it properly and that means to tuck it in the boot... the jaws clip on here, the down-haul clips on to the sail and is threaded through the jaws before we make it up on the cleat... the position of the boom and hence the sail relative to the wind is controlled by this rope, the mainsheet. The next thing to attach is the kicking strap or boom bang. This is used to control the twist in the sail and to stop the boom riding too high. At this stage you simply clip it on and leave it slack. This other cleat is for adjusting the out-haul, we'll come on to that in a moment. To attach the sail to the boom we have two clips, one simply holds the sail down to the boom, whilst the other one, the out-haul is used to bury the tension on the foot of the sail. The rudder and tiller assembly simply slot on to the back of the boat but the important thing to remember is that the tiller must go underneath the rope force before the rudder is clipped on. Otherwise the mainsheet won't be able to slide over freely. The kick up design at the top of the rudder means that it's particularly easy to fit on the beach. Right, that's it, the boat's ready. So let's go afloat to look at how the basic boat controls work.... [music] Okay Suzanne before you go for your first sail there are a few things you need to learn about basic boat controls. The most important control is you, the helms are always set facing the sail. [Suzanne:] Yeah. [John:] And so if you sit just a little bit further forward, that's fine. Now you steer a boat with a tiller here at the back and you always hold that in the hand nearest it. Then if we hold this rope in the other hand and effectively that's our accelerator. That's what pulls in the sail and makes you faster. Now today because it's a little windy we've rolled up some of the sail out of the way to make it easier for you [Suzanne:] Yeah. [John:] and so you could pull it in just until it stops flapping and then you'd be able to sail away and we'd never see you again. So before I let you go, I think you ought to learn how to turn the boat around, we call that tacking. It's quite a complex manoeuvre and so we'll break it down into the different parts that changing hands, turning the boat around and changing sides. Now we'll get the changing hand out of the way first because it's easier that way and so what we do is to bring the rope hand towards the tiller hand and then you can tuck it under your thumb, pick up the tiller with the other hand now, that's fine. Now we initiate the turn by pushing the tiller away and the next thing to do is wait. This takes quite a long time and slowly the boat turns around. When the boom comes over the top of the boat then you can change sides, sit on the new side, straighten up the tiller and you're sailing away again. [Suzanne:] Oh, that sounds better [John:] Well we'll try that once more and then we'll let you go. [Suzanne:] Okay. [John:] So the first thing we do is to change hands, that's good, push, wait... change sides, straighten up the tiller, look where you're going... that's fine. [Suzanne:] Great. [John:] You're ready to go for your first sail. [Suzanne:] Oh. [John:] Now it's only going to be a short one, just out towards that buoy and when I call you, you can turn round, okay? [Suzanne:] Okay.... [John:] Okay come back to me now.... Alright let everything go... fine you've become a sailor. Now all we've got to do is teach you how to sail.... [music] This is our stable starting position crawl on the. The wind is blowing directly across the boat, it's known as the basic two position. The sail is just flapping and there's no drive in it. It's flapping freely. To start sailing we simply pull in the rope that controls the sail that's the mainsheet.... [music] Then we can sail off on a reach in either direction just as we saw Suzanne doing.... [music] Now let's watch that again. From the basic two position, we pull in the mainsheet, we start sailing away on a reach, the wind is blowing directly across the boat and we accelerate away.... [music] Now to start sailing closer towards the wind, we need to pull in the mainsheet, pop the daggerboard down and then turn the boat gently towards the wind, we reach the point where even with the sail sheeted in tightly, the front edge, the luff of the sail is still flapping, that's as close to the wind as we can get and so we maintain a course to keep the sail full. Now we're sailing at about forty five degrees to the wind. We're on the edge of what we call a no go area, if we try to sail any closer to the wind the boat will come upright, the sail will flap and we'll slow down and stop and so the best we can make either side of the no go area is known as a beat. Let's look at that again in practice. Sailing along at forty five degrees to the wind the sail is in tightly and it needs constant adjustment on the tiller to stay on that right course because the wind is never totally steady. Keep a look out for where you are going and watch the luff of the sail.... Now we cross to the other side of the no go area but turning is called tacking, and so to make ground for wind width we have to go in a series of zig-zags, each time turning for about ninety degrees and see that the sail is kept full most of the time only flapping momentarily as the boat turns directly through the eye of the wind. Now let's look at the manoeuvre and tacking in more detail, you will remember it's a sequence which involves changing hands, pushing, changing sides and then straightening up again. So the first thing we do is to change hands, then push, wait until the boom comes across and change sides and straighten up. Sailing upwind is hard work so don't waste effort by letting the mainsheet out. Keep the sail driving for as long as you can through the tacks. Now watch this, as we go through the tack the sail is driving for most of the time just flapping briefly as the sail turns through the wind. The whole thing becomes one fluid manoeuvre with power on for the maximum possible time. Change hands, push, wait, change sides, straighten up and off you go. Now what can go wrong? The most common fault is to be stuck halfway through the tack, head to wind, the boat's right in the middle of the no go zone and the sail's flapping. Simply push the tiller away from you, push the boom out and the boat will sail backwards and then pull the tiller, pull the mainsheet and sail off again. If you get stuck remember, push, push, then pull, pull.... [music] From the reach let's now look at sailing downwind. The first thing to remember is that as you turn the boat away from the wind, you let out the mainsheet, the sail only works properly at one angle to the wind and so it's essential to let out the mainsheet as you bear away. Sailing away from the wind is known as running and you've got great freedom of choice in the exact course you pick, you can even sail dead downwind. What we need to look at though is how we change course if that means moving the position of the sail across the boat. Here we're sailing downwind and we want to turn left effectively, so that means moving the sail across the boat without changing the course of the boat too much.... There, that manoeuvre is known as gybing but really it's as simple as that, sailing downwind you don't have to change course very often, unlike when we're sailing upwind with tacking but we need to show you a few more demonstrations about it in quick succession. Like tacking a manoeuvre consists of a series of related movements, change hands, push, change sides and straighten up again but the difference is in the tiller movement where you move the tiller towards where you were sitting, so let's watch that again, change hands, push the tiller to where you were sitting, watch the boom, as it swings across, straighten up the tiller and settle on the new side. Again, change hands, push the tiller to where you were sitting, watch for the boom, as it swings across, straighten up and sit down on the new side. In stronger winds the manoeuvre becomes a bit more lively and here it's a good idea to twig the mainsheet to help the boom come across. There's lots of power in the sail all the time and so you will have to remain agile. Change hands, push to where you were sitting, crouch in the middle of the boat and straighten up on the new course.... Two last points before we leave gybing. Always check the area you are sailing into to allow for the time when you will be facing battlements but when you crouch in the middle of the boat, do keep an eye on the boom or you'll end up with a nasty bump on the head.... By the time you've mastered gybing, you can sail in almost any direction and so it's now time to look at the five essentials for sailing well.... [music] Sail trips, maximum driving power from your route.... Boat balance, keep the hull flat for maximum speed.... Before and after trip keep the hull level, don't make waves. Daggerboard position, get the right compromise between drive and drag... course wave good, the shortest or fastest distance between two points. Sail trim isn't simply a question of pulling everything in and forgetting about it as the sail works at its maximum at any one angle to the wind. On a beat, that is with the sheet pulled in tightly but as we turn on to a ridge you'll see that we have to ease the sheet out so that the sail stays at the same angle for the wind. Again moving from a reach towards a rung the boat effectively turns underneath the rig and the sail stays at that same angle. Boat balance is simply a question of matching the heeling effect of the wind and the sail with your body weight. As the wind tries to tip the boat over, so you counter that effect by sitting out. The aim is to keep the boat flat at all times so that it glides cleanly over the water.... In light weather you either keep the boat upright or heel it very slightly away from the wind so that gravity helps to fill the sail.... When the boat has heeled too far it tries to turn up into the wind and a lot of rudder movement is needed to keep it straight. That rudder movement equals braking and so it's slowing you down, it may look impressive being heeled over like this but I'd sail a lot faster if the boat were flat. Let's look at that again, when the boat's heeled over that rudder movement causes a lot of turbulence and that's just slowing you down.... For an off trip is much the same, the idea is to keep the boat flat with the bow skimming slowly across the water without too much bow wave and the water leaving the stern very cleanly. Again without too much turbulence.... The most common beginner's mistake is to sit too far aft in the boat and that causes a great wrist a tail of to come up from the trunk. A far less common problem but one which is much more dramatic is if you put your weight too far forward. Not only will this make the boat difficult to steer but if you try doing it too far, you'll start sailing straight under water.... Now for the daggerboard position. The purpose of the daggerboard is to stop the boat drifting sideways. When we're sailing downwind, the wind is simply pushing the boat forward and there's no sideways force, so we don't need the daggerboard. We could lift it right out but it's easier just to lift it until it's just below the level of the boom, so that it doesn't foul it when we're gybing. When beating the sideways force of the wind is at a maximum and so we need the daggerboard right down to get a good grip on the water and stop the boat drifting sideways. When reaching it's a compromise between those two extremes, halfway up and halfway down. Now to see just how effective a daggerboard is, let's look at these two boats beating. The one on the left raises the daggerboard and immediately starts to sag off away from the wind. He is still trying to sail the same course but the boat is just sliding sideways across the water.... Course made good, means sailing where you want to go as effectively as possible. The first thing is to remember is that no daggerboard is completely efficient and so if you try aiming for a goal point, you'll actually end up slightly downwind because the boat would have drifted sideways. The way to overcome this is to sail slightly high of your intended course and you'll end up in the right place. This effect is most pronounced when you're beating. Sailing upwind involves tacking and here you have a wide choice of routes to reach your windward goal point. You could reach it in two tacks or in many more. The route you actually take will be influenced by things like the tide, obstacles like shallow water or other boats and by wind shifts and wind shadows from the land. All other things being equal, the most direct route is the best. Sailing downwind it seems most logical to head straight for your goal point but in fact, particularly in stronger winds, sailing downwind can be slightly uncomfortable. It's better to sail two oblique courses to get down there but this if you choose where to gybe to reach your goal point.... [music] Launching with an offshore wind is a straightforward process. First simply lift the boat into the water but don't let go at this point because you'll find that the boat will drift faster than you can swim after it, then you lift the daggerboard here, halfway down because you'll be sailing off wind. Then lower the rudder for control when you're sailing away and gather the tiller and mainsheet in one hand. Step in gently and push the boom out to help the boat turn away from the wind.... As the boat picks up speed, so you can settle gently into the boat to gain control. That's it, you're away into deep water and sailing happily.... Returning in an offshore wind is slightly more complicated as you have to beat back towards the beach.... Look ahead to choose where you want to land and try to judge the depth of water, raising the daggerboard as you come into shallower water.... Make allowance for the fact that you'll be drifting sideways more with the daggerboard up but as you come into shallow water then you can raise the rudder and step ashore. Then you can lift the rudder completely, take the daggerboard out and lift, not drag, the boat ashore. Taking it far enough up the beach so that it doesn't blow away again. Launching with an onshore wind demands a positive approach. Walk the boat out until the water is deep enough for you to put the daggerboard down far enough so that you'll be able to sail away. Push the rudder down, prepare everything because if you get it wrong you'll be straight back on the beach again and then climb in and sail away.... Choose the tack which takes you most directly offshore and when you're clear, and only then, it's time to worry about the technique by getting the daggerboard the rest of the way down and sailing efficiently. Returning with an onshore wind is potentially the most spectacular of the lot. If you don't do something you'll sail straight up the beach and rip the bottom out of the boat. So as you come in raise the daggerboard, lift the rudder and then when you come into shallow water, turn the boat up towards the wind to lose power for the sail and stop before you hit those rocks. Then as before, step out to the shallow water, lift out the daggerboard, raise the rudder completely and lift the boat ashore.... Now we've covered the basic techniques of sailing, the best way of putting them into practice is by sailing round the triangular course and so I've laid out these three marks. We'll start down at the far end of what we call the lured mark and from there you'll have to tack all the way up to this closest one, the windward mark. From there it's a reach out to the far end to the wind mark, drive there and back to the beginning again. [Suzanne:] Great. [John:] We'll try it a few times just to put it all into practice. Okay let's go. [Suzanne:] That's fine.... [music] Okay. [speaker010:] Okay Howard, this should be a good test to see how much she's learnt. [speaker001:] Over she goes. [John:] No she's let out the mainsheet to spill wind and now she's under control again. It's quite a steady tack around the windward mark, now that she's reaching she should have raised the daggerboard a little. [speaker001:] Now ready for the gybe. [John:] No I don't think she's ready quite yet, she's got a few things to sort out first and that's definitely not right, she wants to raise the daggerboard not lower it, bit of confusion there about which way to turn the tiller but she's round safely, she should be looking where she's going now instead of sorting out all the string. Okay now she's off really quickly on a reach but she's oversheeted, she's got too much power there, she's sheeting the sail in instead of easing it out until it flaps and then just pulling it in a little.... [speaker001:] Should Suzanne have let the sail out like that? [John:] No, by letting the sheet go she lost power. After the tack she'll have to put it all in again to accelerate away. Now sitting out to balance the wind... [speaker001:] That tack looked Okay. [John:] Yes, but she doesn't need that bundle of mainsheet in her hand. For this part of the course she should have the daggerboard right down,... and she could be sailing in slightly shallower tacks towards us. [speaker001:] Whoops. What happened there? [John:] Well she let the boat heel so far before sheeting out that the boom hit the water and wouldn't go any further. She recovered by leaning out more. Suzanne's got a good sense of balance which is always useful when you're sailing... Now let's look at this gybe to see if it's any smoother.... Oh yes that's much better... [speaker001:] Wow, she's really taking off now. [John:] Yes, the wind is stronger out there. Considering she's only been sailing for a couple of days, she's doing very well. If she were more nervous we'd have reached the Topper.... She's still a little unsure on those tacks, she's easing out the mainsheet as she goes round. It's not dangerous but she loses power. At least she's got the daggerboard down there. I see she's sailing more efficiently to windward.... [speaker001:] Well it looks as if Suzanne is beginning to relax and enjoy it more now. [John:] She certainly is, after only a couple of circuits her confidence is growing. She's acting more naturally to the gusts, leaning out and then easing out the sheet. It's all becoming a more natural process. Well how was that? [Suzanne:] It felt absolutely. [John:] You did very very well. [Suzanne:] Oh thank you very much.... [music] [John:] Capsize. This is the part of sailing which every beginner dreads. The boat's on its side in the water and you're nowhere to be seen but in fact it's all quite straightforward, neither the boat nor you can sink and it's simply a question of pulling the boat back upright again and carrying on sailing.... A deliberate capsize is part of every beginner's course. Once you've tried it you'll lose all its fear for you. This is the easiest way of turning the boat over, to tack without moving. Swim clear of all the ropes, swim around to the back of the boat, pull the daggerboard down and then simply flip the boat upright again.... With the Topper, you'll find that there's very little water in the cockpit and so you can start sailing almost immediately.... With a little more confidence you barely need to get your feet wet. If the boat capsizes because it's overpowered... simply scramble into the high side until you end up standing on the daggerboard. Then lever the hull upright again and clamber back in, it's as simple as that.... The worst thing that can happen is for the boat to become totally inverted and here you need to slide the daggerboard quickly out before it drops through the hull. Now the accent is on patience. Just think of the resistance to the sail dragging through the water. You have to pull very slowly and carefully, try to jerk it and you'll bend or possibly break something.... Once the rink breaks through the surface everything happens far more quickly, you scramble in and you're ready to sail again. If things go drastically wrong and you're a long way from home and need to call for help the most effective way is with an orange smoke flare. If you see one of these from the shore, phone the coastguard. Even if you're upright you might need to call for assistance. Perhaps you're exhausted where you've had a gear problem. While you're waiting roll the sail up round the mast. That will reduce your rate of drift and avoid the risk of further capsize. So you tie it up neatly out of the way.... Then you can signal for help in the approved method, raising and lowering your arms slowly. It may be tiring but keep signalling until you're absolutely certain that somebody has seen you and is on their way. As the rescue boat approaches, prepare to be towed by taking the daggerboard out and get your painter ready to pass to the rescue boat. [speaker001:] This is more my kind of sailing, rescuing damsels in distress. Rescue boats are extremely important. Good sailing centres will have at least one and certainly the R Y A ones do and they're important because if beginners get into difficulties out on the water you need to be able to get to them as quickly as possible and it also gives them a sense of security to have one of these things around. Are you alright like that? The get her into shore. So you've shown us all the basic techniques of sailing and more importantly how to get yourself rescued should things get out of hand but apart from the dubious pleasure of capsizing, are there any other ways of getting thoroughly wet? [John:] As with any other sport, Howard, the real exhilaration of sailing, comes when you're going faster and that can certainly mean getting wet. In our case the wind is the driving force, so let's now look at strong wind technique.... [music] In strong winds we don't want beginners to be overpowered and so we reduce the sail area, that's known as reefing. [speaker001:] Okay, so how do you do that on, on this? [John:] On a Topper it's very simple. You simply ease off the out-haul, take the kicker off completely and then we rotate the mast, then just wind the sail up. When we've finished we tension the out-haul and put the kitty strap back on. [speaker001:] Well that thing's pretty easy if you're doing it on the beach but what if you're out in the water and it suddenly gusts up. Just how easy is it to do that? [John:] Well it's always better to reef ashore if you can but if you do get caught out you can reef afloat just the same.... [music] I remember the time I was out there struggling in a strong wind, the boat was definitely overpowered. I had to use a lot of rudder to keep sailing on a straight course. If a boat heeled right over it's not good for the boat and it slows you down, it is far better to reef, the technique is just the same afloat as it was ashore. Roll the sail around the mast until it's reduced in area. In these conditions I wanted to get rid of about a third of the original sail area and so that's it, now I'm sailing much more happily instead of struggling against the boat I'm sailing in harmony again.... The excess sail is rolled up neatly around the mast out of the way and still I've good a good sail shape. That means I can sail happily upwind or downwind in perfect control the whole time.... [speaker001:] That's to an expert sailor to reef wasn't it because of course the stronger the wind the more exciting the sailing [John:] Absolutely so if we move over from Suzanne's boat over to mine, we'll see some of the fittings which make the boat go faster. Okay? [speaker001:] Right so what have we got here? [John:] Well this boat's fitted with the race pack which gives it a lot of the extra controls that you'd expect on a larger sail boat. First of all we've got the kicking strap three to one purchase, the down-haul has a three to one purchase, and the out-haul, that's got a four to one purchase. [speaker001:] It all sounds a lot more complicated now aren't you just making extra work for yourself? [John:] No, in fact it makes life easier. Three to one, four to one, that simply means that it's that much easier to pull everything in. [speaker001:] the scale along the boom there, one to ten, what does that mean? [John:] Well that's for consistency of sail setting. If you know that for your particular weight and the certain wind strength you want the block next to number four, you keep it like that all the time. [speaker001:] You can always go straight through it, it would be right every time? [John:] Yes.... [music] In your enthusiasm to get afloat in a good breeze, it's easy to forget about getting the right sail shape and the effect can be dreadful. Just look at this, the sail is far too full for the conditions, the foot is billowing out... and the luff is horribly wrinkled which has got too much power there, it's a bag of wind.... The general rule is if it looks bad, it probably is bad, so let's get it right. First we tension the foot and then the luff until we get a properly shaped aerofoil.... Another classic mistake is to forget to tighten the kitten strap for boom bang. When you're beating it doesn't matter because the boom is held down by the mainsheet. If you don't tension the boom bang when you're sailing off wind, the boom will just lift, the sail roll twist and you'll get bags of uncontrollable power.... The way to tighten it is when you're on a beat, just pull it in as the tension is taken by the mainsheet. [speaker001:] What are so special about these racing birds of a? [John:] The other thing we've got is a ratchet block on the mainsheets. [speaker001:] What does that mean? [John:] I'll tell you.... Hear that noise? [speaker001:] Aha. [John:] That's a ratchet locking the sheets, so all the load is taken by the block and I'm just holding it. [speaker001:] That means that you can sail for longer. Strong winds without getting tired, so it's a lot more fun.... [music] [John:] It's also pretty wet but with the ratchet block taking the strain out of controlling the sail I can concentrate on technique and having fun... and respond to the gusts by sheeting in or sheeting out if I'm overpowered and moving bodyweight in or out to suit the. Even with the boat sailing flat a certain amount of spray goes aboard, so get the bailer down to drain the cockpit. The daggerboard is raised slightly from the same position in lighter winds because the boat's sailing faster.... If the wind drops a bit then you can sit inboard more to keep the boat flat. This is what sailing is really all about. It's not a struggle, you're harnessing the elements and having fun.... Sailing upwind works the boat over the waves gently.... [speaker001:] Well it really looks as if you're having a lot of fun out there, John, but you are an expert. Now I'm sure that screaming along with fifteen knot in a force six is really exciting but for a landlubber like myself it's certainly not on. [John:] As I suspect it's not for many of the people here. Well sailing is what you want it to be. For some of us it's pitting our strength against the elements, for others it's pitting our wits against other people by going racing and yet other people seek adventure by exploring new sailing areas and the beauty of a small sail boat like the Topper is that you can do all of these.... In tidal waters like the Channel Islands, you must find out what the tides are doing. That means looking up the tide tables to see the times of high and low water and the tidal stream list to find the maximum rates. In tide free waters like the Mediterranean we don't have the same problem but we still need to consult a chart to find out a suitable location for sailing. That may be affected by the prevailing wind and we'll have to find a suitable launching site.... [Suzanne:] Well this is a beautiful boat. [speaker001:] Presumably we can just go and load, rig up and away we go, can we? [John:] Well, almost, in this particular bay it's fine, we know it's a public beach, we've checked on the map. It's a different matter if you're sailing inland because most inland water is owned by somebody. [speaker001:] What about the er winds here? [John:] Well here we've got an onshore wind, that's perfect, because we know that if we get into trouble just get blown back ashore. It's different if the wind's offshore because then it can be deceptively close into the shore and further out bigger waves and if you get into trouble you're lost out to sea. [speaker001:] Right well we're all set. Fancy a sail round here Suzanne? [Suzanne:] I think it sounds pretty good fun, I think we should go for it. [speaker001:] Right [John:] Let's go. [speaker001:] Let's go. [starting up boat] [John:] Fun? [speaker001:] doesn't actually seem to be a lot up there, are you sure we've brought everything? [John:] Yes, that's the beauty of the Topper, we've got the sail in the bowels of the boot and everything else is on the roof. In fact when I keep my Topper at home over the winter, they just lift the whole thing up into the roof of the garage, keeps it right out of the way. So all we've got to do now is to untie everything and go sailing.... [music] Now that you've learnt to sail on your own, the next step is to sail with other people. That probably means buy a boat and joining a club.... If you are of a competitive nature, most clubs provide the opportunity for you to start racing and there's no faster way into a pretty good technique than by sailing against more experienced people. If you have no intention of racing, every sailing club offers a safer and supervised area to continue your sailing. Having learnt to sail in a sail boat like the Topper you can move on to more complex boats with confidence or continue to exploit the versatility and convenience of this single-hander which has become the best selling sail boat in Britain... the one design nature of the Topper, due to its injection moulded hull, is perfect for racing and secondhand values remain high. Like every other lively class the Topper has an owners' association which organizes rallies, open meetings, national and international championships.... [speaker001:] I'm beginning to realize why perfectly sane people pitch themselves at the mercy of the elements miles from the security of terra firma, has provided the perfect resort for our first events of the. Thanks to the excellent facilities here at Menorca sailing. Thanks also to the R Y A and particularly to John. The R Y A beginner's course has certainly got Suzanne here sailing with confidence in no time at all. [Suzanne:] It certainly has. [speaker001:] Well you look as if you're raring to go and show us what you can do, so I'll give you a push up and away you go. Bye... [music]

[speaker001:] twenty two miles, a thousand and six rising slowly, Ronald's Way, west seven, sixteen miles nine nine three, rising quickly. Mallin Head, North West by West eight, recently hale, eleven miles, nine nine three, rising very rapidly. That's the end of the shipping forecast but just to remind you that Radio Four long wave in Northern Scotland, Orkney and Shetland is off the air as the bulkhead transmitter has been affected by the bad weather but as soon as it's repaired we will repeat the shipping forecast for the areas affected that'll be on long wave only and F M will continue with scheduled programmes. Now just after two, Gardeners' Question Time introduced by Doctor Stefan. [Stefan:] Hello, well this week it's the turn of those listeners who've sent in their queries by post and we'll try and help as many of you as we can. Our team is Daphne from Spalding, Fred from Lancaster and Walter from East Kilbride and our first card this week is er, [LAUGHTER] goes back into [] our own experiences because it's from Gill of West Yorkshire. Some of you may remember her because we stayed at her hotel er a little while ago and [LAUGHTER] she has a lovely horse chestnut tree er outside her hotel and since we went [LAUGHTER] it stopped producing conkers []. She says has it turned gay or homosexual, has it changed sex, is it the micro-climate or did one of us fix it? Just to remind us the tree is five hundred feet above sea level. It's always the first tree to leaf and it's also the first one to shed its leaves in the area and all the neighbouring horse chestnut trees, which presumably we didn't tamper with [LAUGHTER] have stayed prolific. Fred did you knob all the conkers? [Fred:] No I didn't Stefan, we've been blamed for some things in our time, haven't we but [Stefan:] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] nothing like this I don't think. If I remember rightly this erm hotel is on a hill, isn't it? [Stefan:] Certainly, five hundred feet up, yes. [Fred:] But it's on a hill in the, in the, in the, it's a long way down from there to walk and, and if I remember rightly it was on the outside of the hotel, on a bank and that to me means that erm if we had had some weather, which we had at that time, then the roots could have suffered but the other clue I think is that erm it comes into leaf first and it drops its leaves first in the autumn so maybe it's a different tree than the other, different variety, because there are several horse chestnuts aren't there? [Stefan:] Yes, there's the normal horse chestnut which is aesculus hippocastanum that's [Fred:] Yes. [Stefan:] the one with the big on but then there's pavia isn't there [Fred:] Yes. [Stefan:] which is the red flowered one [Fred:] And some of these are a bit tender, more tender than the others aren't they as well? But they don't actually produce as many conkers. So I'm just wondering whether this is a different variety and because it was two years ago, I three years ago now I think. That year I can remember was a good year wasn't it? We had a good spring and we had a good set in year. We got a cold gust of er icy winds when that I think was out in blossom then there wouldn't be many conkers. [Stefan:] Well, no, there wouldn't but what's so odd is that the other horse chestnut trees in the area seem alright. Walter, I know you weren't there Walter so we can't blame you for whatever's happened but have you got a theory about it? [Walter:] Well er you know it seems such a mystery er to me, conker not shy. There are all sorts of situations that can occur, I've heard of electrical er and soil impulses that er cause shock and well might put it out to flower. Again er even frosting blast when even other trees er specific trees are erm alright, it may have been caught in that draught and set it back a little, you never know. [Stefan:] No, it's er d Gill er goes on actually to ask, she says do d do these trees have to cross pollinate? Well they don't in fact Gill, in fact horse chestnuts are rather interesting, that technically what's called andromonetius which means they have male flowers and hermaphrodite flowers on the same, so it's hedging its bets all ways round. [Fred:] Er yeah it is Stefan but because you know it's the first one to come into leaf and the first one to shed, then possibly it will flower at a different time as well I would think and that may be the clue. [Stefan:] Yes perhaps you're right Fred. Well we don't have a definite answer erm Gill but we think it may have experienced a shock of some sort during that season and of course when this happens to fruit trees they can go into bi-annual cropping and then they come back again, it may be that this horse chestnut's experienced something very similar. I think the answer is we must come and stay with you again and then we can [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] And the other thing of course Stefan is it lives in Yorkshire. [Stefan:] Well I that lives in Ilkley. [Fred:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] On Ilkley Moor bar conkers. Anyway, we'll tr we'll come back and see your tree again Gill. Thank you for the question. We go to London now and to, to erm, sorry I'm j see what sex this honest we don't know what sex it's from M, could be Mr Mrs Ms. M of London has been told that their plum tomatoes have got T M V. Fred will tell you in a moment what T M V is but the symptoms are the plants have brown blotches on the stems, fallen leaves all round where th where the plants are growing erm and he's done all he can to get rid of it. He's got rid of the old plants, he's, but he's kept the seeds, this is interesting, he's kept the seeds from apparently unaffected plants. The fruit itself seem to be alright and the bottom line of the question, is it safe to replant the seeds from this plant next season? So it's your question, Fred. First of all, what is T M V? [Fred:] Well it's tomato mosaic virus int it, erm but what really is significant about it is that the leaves are mottled with yellow and it quite often go fern like, they go very very thin. Er and this erm virus actually will er stay in the seed, it will stay in the soil, it will stay in the soil for years and plant other varieties, or other er plants in there. So I think I would do away with my plum tomatoes for a start with something else. We all think it's going to stay there for a long time and, and there are varieties now, bred specially to be immune from er T M V and er, we use things like Counter or Curabell, or one of my favourites of course Shirley. [Stefan:] Yes, yeah it is one of the most infectious of all plant viruses [Fred:] Yeah. [Stefan:] er it spreads as you say by contact and in the seed, this is the point, so I wouldn't save seeds from any plants that have been anywhere near [Fred:] No because even the ones that aren't showing the symptoms, they could have the virus in it, cos it just may not have come out. [Stefan:] Yes. [Fred:] So I wouldn't save it at all I would do away with the lot. [Stefan:] Yeah, just as a, as a side issue, I am interested that they've been growing plum tomatoes because each year I hear of more and more people growing plum tomatoes successfully in this country and while we are just on the subject of diseases and things to control them, you may remember that a few weeks ago we were giving advice on how we should dispose of waste garden chemicals and, and we said you ought to pour it down an outside drain. Well, apparently that used to be the official advice er and, and we were correct in that but the authorities have now changed their minds and they no longer want us to pour waste chemical down the drains and I gather that the official advice now is that surplus diluted chemical should be poured, and I'm quoting here, [reading] on to more or less level and bare soil in the garden or on to level gravelled paths, avoid disposal in areas around ponds, erm water courses and so forth, dishes and, and what have you [] and as far as undiluted chemicals are concerned, that's stuff still in the bottle, the advice there is to talk to your local authority cos they have different regulations in different areas. If anyone wants chapter and verse on this the erm address of the British Agro-chemicals Association who put out this literature will be on our fact sheet. Right we move on to er the West Country now and Owen of Wareham in Dorset. Er now Owen has a large summer house and collects rain water from the roof and the roof's been covered recently with a good quality, he says, mineralized felt. Now remember some years ago, and I remember this, that we said that it would inadvisable to collect rain water off a new felt roof. What he wants to know Daphne is, for how long should he wait? [Daphne:] Well theoretically I would wait as long as it took to wash the mess off the roof. Now of course it would depend very much on and whether you were in a drought situation as we were until last year or whether it's like we've been over this last summer and early winter which is that virtually not a day has passed without we've had some rain, in which case obviously the roof is going to get cleaned up very much quicker but I have to say that although I've always been under the impression that it's not a good idea to save water off a new felt roof er because of deposits that come off the mineral felt. I have actually used water that's come off it and I've also had er sheds with plants growing underneath and I can't honestly remember, I mean I have obviously not used it on really sensitive plants like tomatoes which I think would show signs of stress. Now I've used it elsewhere in the garden and I've never really had any problem with it except it is inclined to make the water very alkaline because the chippings that are quite often used on a flat roof and they've got a very high P H and therefore you've got to be aware that the water that comes off is not likely to be soft it's more likely to be fair fairly hard but for reasonably tough plants I don't think I would waste it, especially in times of water shortage. [Stefan:] Well Walter, have you experienced this as a problem? [Walter:] Well up in Scotland of course we don't need to save our rain water we get plenty of it coming from the [LAUGHTER] unclear [], but er one thing I would say would be that erm if we have a warm spell and the sun is beating on a bitumen roof and then of course suddenly a shower and that er goes into the water bucket or water barrel then it does give you maybe you know a few problems. I remember having a problem like that where we were erm we had a, a load of erm we were watering that material it was warmed, we thought of course would be alright but they did er, they were quite sensitive to it and they looked quite miserable. [Stefan:] Yes Fred do you, would you, how long would you wait to collect the? [Fred:] Well I think I would wait Stefan until the oily film had gone off the top of the water for tender plants but then I am one of these people that would always tender plants with tap water anyway because you never know what's in do you in rain water, anything can congregate in a pot, it can be infected with all sorts of things and I would just use this water on the garden in the first twelve months or so or use it on shrubs and things like that if it was required and then go on to er things like perennials but then you could use it on almost anything but with the proviso that you may have contamination in that water if it's from Water Board. [Stefan:] But let's just remind people that, yes, water should be saved, water should be conserved. You may not need to do it in Scotland as well to the in England. Many areas, yes, let's everybody have water butts and use them to, to save the rain water during next summer, next summer being when it's going to rain. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] We go to Berkhamsted in Hertfordshire now and Mrs Jennifer 's written to us er with a puzzle because she's found what she thought was an interesting plant growing amongst a raspberry bush in her garden. Her mother identified it as a wayfaring tree and she'd been cutting it back during the summer and it didn't seem to mind but she'd be very grateful for any information about the wayfaring tree which presumably she'd like to keep and continue to grow in her garden. Walter, what, what is a wayfaring tree? [Walter:] Well Jennifer I think it's er viburnum lanterna and it's quite an interesting er bush because it was in the sixteenth century a er gave the tree its poetic name as he frequently come across it in old drove roads er over and across the old drove roads in the chalk downs of er from Winchester to Epsom and London but sorry about this it can grow to fifteen feet and in May it opens up its cluster of white flowers and it's really quite an attractive thing but the berries I don't think are so attractive so I think erm [Stefan:] Des describe them why in what way they're not attractive one. [Walter:] Well they, they grow from this er green to white to red and then finally black, don't like black berries Stefan so [LAUGHTER] that would be a no no as far as I was concerned in my garden []. [Stefan:] Oh alright well it's a no no for Walter's garden. [Walter:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] Daphne, is it a yes yes for your garden? [Daphne:] Well it's not a yes yes for the garden because I wouldn't have room for it but it's certainly a yes yes in my shelter delt because the birds love the berries and it really encourages them to use that shelter delt but it isn't as, as easy to grow, it's, one tends to think of the nature plant as a tough plant but I've been trying to establish about thirty of these in the shelter delt and I've found they object to any form of total weedkiller round the root, so all the, the weedkillers that you would use for the first couple of years maybe to, to keep the, the weeds from growing round the stems, they tend to get chlorotic and die. They also don't like wind rock so in a, an exposed position young plants do really need more staking than you'd probably give a bush because they tend to rot off at the roots if they grow around a lot. I, I think it's quite a, an interestingly pretty plant in the right sort of situation but it is a wild plant, it is a native plant and it gets big. [Stefan:] I am intrigued if it doesn't like wind rock, how it manages to survive on the drove roads over the downs that where Gerard. [Daphne:] Well I think, I think that the difference is that if you're, they were obviously establishing themselves from seed and they picked the right spot and they got themselves anchored. If you're buying them as young plants which are probably a foot fifteen inches high then it takes them a couple of years to get the roots established. When they get big there's no problem at all, it's just that couple of years getting them settled down. [Stefan:] Yeah, you, yes. Fred you presumably know this plant. [Fred:] Yeah I do Stefan, I mean i it's very vigorous int it, when it gets established and it grows very upright as well and of course it's deciduous erm some people call it a shrub, some people call it a tree but I, I will think that er Mrs is doing the right thing by cutting it back, especially if it's a small garden, it would make a better bush in the garden I think if she does that and the these little white flowers really in are nice aren't they? I would grow it, yeah. [Stefan:] Mm. I think ideally what we're saying er Mrs is that it's er, it's an interesting plant and being a native plant of course there'll be wild life that feeds on it which is to the good but it's probably a plant for a, a larger wilder garden really. [Fred:] Yeah, didn't it used to called twistwood Stefan or something? If I remember rightly. [Stefan:] You could be right Fred I don't, I've not heard that one. [Fred:] Whe where it came from I don't know but [Stefan:] Twistwood? [Fred:] Yeah. [Stefan:] Oh well if anybody knows perhaps they'll write and tell us, is, is twistwood another name for the wayfaring tree? Anyway a plant, we think, for bigger gardens but if you can get away with growing it in a small space where cutting it back by all means do because it is quite a pretty thing. Next card is from Birmingham, Sally in Birmingham and R S has written to us and, oh this looks right up your street Fred. Would the team please comment on the effect of water supply and type of soil on the cooking properties of potatoes er Mr finds that all the maincrop varieties that he grows seem to boil into the water but the same variety grown commercially it says, doesn't. That's interesting, only the very waxy first early potatoes seem immune from this problem. Well this is something that comes up time and again Fred. We recommend varieties and people write to us and say that's no good it disappears into the water and stays hard. [Daphne:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] Now I know you probably grown every variety of potato known to man and cooked most of them, so let's have some information from you. [Fred:] Well I'm sure that soil does have some effect on potatoes Stefan, I mean if you get erm potatoes from down Lincolnshire, somewhere like that where it's er quite hard soil then, then you'll find that they will stay longer in the water before they boil away. I if you get them off some of the mosses up our way, then they boil away far quicker but the other thing I think is mainly variety. Now things like erm, well one of my old favourites Arran Pilot i if you dig it out when it's young, then of course it stays as it should, cos it's a very very waxy potato but, but I can remember growing varieties like Majestic and things like that and I mean they would never fall, they would never fall in the water but they make good chips er of the modern varieties I think I'd go for er Kondor with a K er which is a very very good potato and does stay as it is i in the ground but one other thing I think also comes into it. Maybe these potatoes have been lifted too early. Now if you think about commercial potatoes and the ones that keep, the late ones, they are always harvested after the have died down, a long time after, in fact some of them are still digging up potatoes now. So the skins of those potatoes are very very ripe and so is the flesh. A lot of people in the garden are digging them round about August September time... really which is too early to keep potatoes and then the flesh is far softer. [Stefan:] Yes, I've got to come back to you in a minute Fred and I'll just give you time to think about this. I'd like your recommendations for the best boiling, baking, roasting, chipping potatoes, three or four for different purposes but I'm going to ask Walter to comment on the question first of all? [Walter:] Yes, well up here in Scotland er where I live erm the maincrop variety Golden Wonder tends to certainly need a par boiling and a par boiling only er when cooking so it needs about what five to six minutes or something like that but erm any more and the tatties go to mash and er that's why I think a lot of the Golden Wonders er in Scotland are cooked in their skins but erm if I was to go for a variety that er I enjoy would be one called Pentland Ivory, it's a, a nice flowery spud er and you get quite a plentiful supply of them too so it's quite a good variety but you know the old Kerr's Pink used to be called I think Henry's Seedling, I remember rightly and then it changed its name to Kerr's Pink because Kerr was a seedsman up in who really introduced it and er that was just after the first world war and that's a good one, that's a very good one and it's got that waxy skin as well you see so it might be quite useful. [Stefan:] Right, Daphne, Lincolnshire where you come from that's potato country. [Daphne:] Well it certainly is but er I've grown potatoes myself for years and never had any trouble with them boiling into the water but this year I cannot get a good potato, all of my usual favourites like Estima which I've found is a usually good all round potato, it it's a monkey for boiling into the water and one thing I can only assume is that the weather's had a lot to do with it, my ground's been waterlogged most of the season. I lifted them early because I didn't want to leave them any longer because they were going to get damaged and they were, they were a wet potato when they came up and they've cooked wet, so I think that the amount of rainfall you have has a lot to do with it. The other thing that I wonder might have some bearing is that I know parts of Sally Park and Sally Oak and they're very acid, they can grow rhododendrons and azaleas and things very well. [Stefan:] Yes that's [Daphne:] I'm wondering if, if it's too acid for a good crop of potatoes without liming. [Stefan:] Yes it certainly is, I, as you say the streets round Sally Oak are lined with erm gardens with rhododendrons in aren't they? I must say I've only grown two maincrop this year, I've been clearing some new ground and I've just grown King Edward and Pink Fir Apple, I've got the biggest biggest Pink Fir Apples you have ever seen bar none but I'm coming back to you now Fred, I put to you a few minutes ago, your personal recommendations for the best three or four or five potatoes for the different cooking purposes. [Fred:] Well I think as an early potato Stefan, I would chose from Rocket for the earliest, I would grow I think for as well as that I would go for Foremost but if you want a real waxy potato it would still be Arran Pilot cos now whenever you eat it it got a strong taste, whether it's young or whether it's old. As a late potato, as a keeping potato I always grow Wilger Now I grow Wilger because it, it browns well when it's roasted. It makes good chips or if it's dry fried. We, very seldom that we have boiled potatoes but if I wanted a potato I think to cover all the needs to keep, I would go for Desiree because that one will fit almost any bill at all, it'll do everything, it's the best all round potato, late potato that I have ever grown and eaten. [Stefan:] Okay thank you very much indeed Fred. We move to Croydon in Surrey now, Mrs E has written to us from Croydon, Elizabeth. She says her neighbour's garden, always is a mystery here, her neighbour's garden has been attacked by some kind of animal, she thinks nocturnal, there are small areas dug up from the garden, they are about three to four inches in diameter and about the same in depth, so it's, it's, it's a little hole rather than the end of a tunnel it seems. Small clods of soil are thrown on the surface and also small quantities of animal excreta around the holes. She's obviously examined the animal excreta very closely because she says it's black and it appears to contain berries. What is it and how can it be stopped? That's the digging the holes not the excreta, I imagine. Walter, what do you think? [Walter:] I never thought er Mrs that I'd be seeing, I'd like to see the excreta first [LAUGHTER] but er [] could it be, could it be a dormouse because they enjoy the insects and berries and they make similar type holes. Now in Victorian times they were kept as pets and just like hamsters are today and there are still one or two around that er might just give you [LAUGHTER] that impression [] but I may be really off the, the level here. [Stefan:] Well I don't know, we had, not so long ago we had National Dormouse Week didn't we further in the autumn erm what do you think Fred, dormice? [Fred:] I think, oh I think the holes are a bit big aren't they for a dormouse? [Stefan:] I don't think I've ever seen a dormouse I must be honest [Fred:] Well it's like a square hole isn't it? Three or four inches across. Seems like they could be big. [Walter:] I, I just wonder whether it's voles. [Stefan:] Voles? [speaker006:] Yeah, erm, yeah. [Frank:] I think I would come down on voles really and they do actually dig a hole like that they go for erm small boulders and things like that in the garden or roots and they will send out clods as well cos they can uproot quite, quite a fair piece of er soil and of course they would eat berries as well, but again I'm with Walter, I would like to see the end product. [Stefan:] I think you've probably let us in for it now Frank cos she's almost certainly going to send us some. Daphne do you think it's a vole? [Daphne:] It could be, or I'm just wondering if it's actually squirrels, because although the, the excreta contains berries erm a squirrel will eat berries, it will also eat nuts and of course they do bury their nuts and I've actually seen squirrels in other parts of the country digging holes and starting a bit of a larder and of course there are a lot of, of erm squirrels in Croydon so I think unless you actually see the animal you can only speculate that it is something small like a vole or, or a squirrel. [Stefan:] Alright, well let's suppose it's some something small like a vole or a squirrel. The end bottom line to all this is ho can it be stopped? [Daphne:] Not if it's a squirrel. I have never found anything yet that will stop a squirrel doing precisely what it wants to do when it wants to do it, whatever that is what it wants to do. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] And there we rest our case. Fred could you do anything about it? [Fred:] not with squirrels, no er I don't think so but I mean you, you might be able to do something with a vole, or something like that and trap them but I'm just wondering Stefan could it also be a fox? [Stefan:] A fox! [Fred:] Yeah [Stefan:] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] now I, I have seen foxes and I mean they are they are now in built up areas aren't they? Do they ea do they eat berries? [Stefan:] Well they don't have s yes they'd eat anything but a fox [Fred:] Yeah yeah. [Stefan:] doesn't have small black excreta, Fred, fox droppings are like [Fred:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] [LAUGHTER] I was going to say like nobody's business []. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Frank:] Like an Alsatian's. [Stefan:] Well they are. [Fred:] Well it depends what, you know, what people call small doesn't it? I mean to compare with an elephant dropping, it's small. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] Yeah, hang on, just a minute, let's keep, let's keep this thing within bounds of credibility will you, this is Croydon not the Engoran gorn craza [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] Let's get to the to Mrs 's problem. We think it might be voles, we think it could be squirrels, we don't seriously think it's anything bigger but I'm afraid we don't think there's anything you can do about it but if you want further investigation then if you send these objects to Fred care of the programme, he will give you a personal diagnosis. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] And very swiftly from that [LAUGHTER] I'm going to [] I'm going to move to your part of the world Fred, I'm going to go to Preston in Lancashire. Erm Mrs Lynne who's got a well established peach tree which is in an old greenhouse, I should think that's the best place for it in Lancashire in, in the shelter of a greenhouse. It produces a good number of peaches every August but the greenhouse is in desperate need of replacement and she doesn't have to, want to have to put another one in that position so is there anything cheap, she says, that she could do to help the tree to survive and fruit in a large open garden in Preston in Lancashire without the greenhouse, Walter? [Walter:] Well I wonder Lynne if it would look odd because you know the position of the greenhouse just now I mean is it a lean-to, or is it sitting out there in the lawn, where is it? And would it look odd if you had a tent or wigwam type of frame that could be covered in with a protective polythene and well ven ventilated at the, at the base and as it's only really to give protection, you know, January, late April sort of thing, round about that period, er to prevent the fungal peach leaf curl and fungal spores being splashed on the branches wherein. It really is quite difficult, you know, trying to visualize what the [LAUGHTER] thing would like [] but er [Stefan:] I think it'd look pretty awful actually. L l [Walter:] Well it may, it may stand out like a sore thumb, yeah. [Stefan:] L l let me ask Fred, it's your county Fred. Is the main need for this greenhouse for protection against the weather or simply against peach leaf curl? [Fred:] Well both I think Stefan, especially when the flowers are out because erm in our area, I mean peaches flower early and that time of the year are quite susceptible to frost. I mean Preston is about twenty miles south of er where we are but I know that there are gardens north of where we are that do grow good peaches but what they do they cover the er plants during the early spring round about February time and they cover it with very fine ne net, that's all they need to do with it just cover it up when the flowers are out, make sure that they lift it off every now and again to do the pollinating, get them set and then when the frosts have gone take the net off. And if they use green netting, I mean it won't be a nuisance, it won't look er very disfiguring will it? And it will work. [Stefan:] Is that what you do Daphne? [Daphne:] Well the problem as I see it is that you don't know what the variety of this peach is, if it was bought out of greenhouse variety and is reasonably tender then I don't think whatever you do with it in Preston it's going to make any difference. If it was, for instance, Peregrine, which south of Pes Preston, certainly in my area, will grow quite well on a wall outside, then I think you'll get away with netting but I think without knowing whether it's an indoor peach or an outdoor peach, you're on a bit of a loser. [Stefan:] Yes, that's a good point. Well the advice Mrs then is if you know what variety it is and you know it's a variety tough enough to grow outdoors like er Peregrine, then send protection at the susceptible time of the year when the blossom's out, otherwise er if it is a tend a more tender variety we don't think er the thing is going to survive and certainly not going to fruit. And we go finally to Rosemary of Cambridge and she would like to plant two nice shrub rose bushes. I'm delighted to hear it cos there is no lovelier plant in the garden. I'm going to ask each one of you for two suggestions. Bearing in mind that Rosemary says she does not like red and scent is the most important thing. So Fred first of all two recommendations from you please. [Fred:] You're drooling aren't you Stefan? [Stefan:] Oh I am, I am, yes you can see it. [Fred:] Well we don't know how big this garden is, do we? [Stefan:] Yes, she does say looking at her card again Fred, she says, a small garden. [Fred:] Ah, then we don't want some big ones, do we, cos some of the shrub roses do get quite er quite tall and quite wide as well. So I would give her Penelope, she's one of the moss, er it's pink, it's er repeat flowering, it flowers all season which some of the others don't and a yellow one Graham Thomas I think would be my other choice. Again it's only about four foot high and about four foot wide and a beautiful flower, a beautiful old fashioned type flower and a new, new variety of er of shrub rose and of course again it's repeat flowering so they go on right through the season and both of them their fragrance is beautiful. [Stefan:] Good choice, Penelope and Graham Thomas from Fred. Daphne? [Daphne:] Well Fred's got my Graham Thomas because it really is a superb rose but as well as that I would go for hybrid musk and I think of all the hybrid musk, my favourite is Felicia because of that silvery pink, lovely double shaped flower and that is very very heavily scented and I would have to have the bourbon rose the th the double white creamy white bourbon rose, if, you could almost eat that, that won't get more than about six foot and you can prune it to keep it in shape a bit if it begins to get too straggly. [Stefan:] Yes I think it's perhaps worth making the point erm to Rosemary that although, as you say,i it's six feet high, that it doesn't spread all that wide and it's, it's a mistake in a small garden to think that you can't have things that are on the tall side. What you think, what you don't want is things that spread very widely. Erm Walter what about you for two shrub roses? [Walter:] Well my favourite shrub is, er must be the Charles Austin which is a rather nice one, it's a cream well scented modern English shrub rose and it grows to about, well up here anyway in Scotland where I am it grows something like erm four to six feet and another one well, erm Aloha, it's a delicious scented pink and a strong growing rose er fairly upright but erm quite a good one and again it grows to be about five to six feet with us. [Fred:] Because these are your favourite roses Stefan what about your choice? [Walter:] Yeah, what about you Stefan? [Stefan:] Oh I thought you'd never ask. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Stefan:] Yes, I, I'd give you two, one is my favourite of all shrub roses which is Fantan la tour which has what one can only describe as loosened sort of shaggy shell pink flowers with the most exquisite perfume, it's a, it's an untidy flower like the old shrub roses really should be the best of them erm and a very pale shell pink, a wonderful variety, not particularly repeat flowering, relatively short flowering season but so wonderful when it is in flower and the other one, er she says she doesn't like red, now isn't really red, it's a very very deep reddish purple and it's a variety called Tuscany Superb and I grow Tuscany Superb in my garden alongside er some fennel, a foliage fennel plant and the feathery fennel together with, almost the aniseed aroma of the fennel together with these deep deep purple flowers of Tuscany Superb is absolutely wonderful, it's actually on the edge of my herb garden. [Daphne:] And you can use it in pot pourri as well can't you Stefan? [Stefan:] You can indeed Daphne, so there you are Rosemary do plant some shrub roses and even if you haven't got room for all of our suggestions I hope you'll find room for two or three of them. And that must be our last question for today so can I ask the team for some topical tips Walter? [Walter:] Well this week has the shortest day before the end of the year so light is at the premium and erm I would wash the glass quite often now of the glasshouse and greenhouse because er especially the outside to remove any of that winter grime that's collected and let some light into those plants. [Stefan:] We shall certainly do that and Fred? [Fred:] I'm gonna lift a few mint roots Stefan and er plant them in a box of compost and put them in the warm greenhouse so they give me nice sprigs of fresh mint in a few months' time. [Stefan:] Thank you Fred and Daphne? [Daphne:] Well the flowering house plants, we hope you're going to be given for Christmas, things like cyclamen and indoor azaleas and also your indoor bowls of course will last much longer if you give them the coolest, lightest position you can. Warm central heating is bad news for indoor plants. [Stefan:] Good news for us but bad for them and that'll have to be all for today, we've been answering some of the queries that have reached us by post. Next week we shall be in Scotland with the Helensborough and Gerloch Horticultural Society so I hope we can cultivate your interest again then but for now from Daphne, Fred Walter and from me Stefan goodbye and may I wish a joyous and peaceful Christmas to all of our gardening friends everywhere. [speaker006:] Gardeners' Question Time is produced at Manchester by Amanda if you'd like a fact sheet on the programme, please send us a stamped addressed envelope, marked fifty one stroke ninety three to Gardeners' Question Time B B C, P O Box twenty nine, Manchester M twelve six A D. This is Radio Four.

[Peter:] Tape two Friday the fourteenth of January nineteen ninety four for Coobie Garragan Packard discussing a work assignment in entitled registers of English [dog barking in background] describe [LAUGHTER] the register of use language [] the noise was a dog. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Using as a source of data three texts from different newspapers published on the same day looking at equivalent reca reports in the same news story or editorials, finding one text similar in topic as a basis for comparison. Identify and discuss language features that are distinctive of the register of the newspapers, I E features common in all three newspaper articles but infrequent or non-existent in the non-use paper shapes the language features if any that distinguish the three newspaper articles from each other with emphasis on vocabulary, adjectives erm and bias... and the essay title the essay length between three thousand five hundred words and our purpose in discussing this tonight as professional communicators is to help a mature overseas student of English. [Anne:] We don't, we don't. We don't, we don't. Put him down now. [Susan:] Put him down now, he'll be alright. [Anne:] Put him down and I'll see if it works. [Susan:] It's not that I get reasonably excited it'll be okay. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] Right, how do we start? [Anne:] If I were you I'd put the earphones in. [Susan:] Yes. [Anne:] If you put the earphones in can we just test first of all what's working? [Peter:] Yeah [Susan:] That's right. [Anne:] Could we go round the room, Susan could you say a sentence. [Susan:] As long as I don't get too excitable we'll be okay. [Peter:] Yeah, you're perfect, you're loud and clear, so am I. [Anne:] So's can you hear Tukuse? [Tukuse:] Yes, erm I hope [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Tukuse the only one where you move the choker or if you speak up just a little bit. [Anne:] A little bit louder. [Tukuse:] Okay erm [Peter:] Perfect that's okay. [Tukuse:] Everybody still hears? [Peter:] Yeah Anne, yeah. [Anne:] Can you hear me? [Peter:] Yeah and I can hear myself. Right that's it. [Anne:] Right. Would you explain to us what subject you've chosen [Tukuse:] Mhm. [Anne:] and why you chose it [Tukuse:] Yes. [Anne:] and which newspapers you think, even if you haven't made a final decision [Tukuse:] Mhm. [Anne:] that you may consider using for your essay? [Tukuse:] Okay erm... this is just... I think this is er what we call coincidence or just er... unplanned or... unpredicted... er event or happening... one... maybe one evening maybe I... thought it was Friday evening, one Friday evening... December... er Mrs was watching television it was erm but... normally she didn't watch television at that time, but just... coincidence? [Anne:] No, I have been told that [Tukuse:] Er she watched six o'clock news... seven o'clock? Six o'clock news erm [Anne:] And seven o'clock and nine [Tukuse:] [LAUGHTER] yes, but normally she doesn't watch erm six o'clock news because she's cooking at six o'clock or seven o'clock. So she watched television and erm... Princess Diana erm... said something shocking at lunchtime at a luncheon party or lunch party and erm... maybe just erm ten days before that Princess Diana's announcement we were told by the Register Teacher that we will have an assignment of in February and we will compare some newspapers articles and maybe she didn't explain very erm specifically but she just gave us erm the brief information about er register assignment in February and she told us that we should er we should collect some newspapers... about the same title was about the same... topic and ho we should compare how each newspaper treated, treats the... er news or... what do you call that? [Anne:] Well the news item the story, the story. [Tukuse:] Yes, the story erm... so erm Mrs and I... thought this will be a very exciting project if I collect the... newspaper articles about Princess Diana... shocking announcement. So the next day it was Sa Saturday er Saturday morning we went to Jameson er... can I call that that shop? [Susan:] Yes Jameson yes, yes [Tukuse:] Okay Jameson er Bookshop in George Street and we bought six newspapers... tabloid, three tabloid or er three [Anne:] sheet. Yes. [Tukuse:] Broadsheet. Yes [clears throat] and during the winter holidays I cut er... cut the articles and I now, I, you can see the articles I cut during the holidays. [Anne:] Peter, would you like to talk about language register in tabloids and broadsheets? I'm just gonna see if I can find a clarity index. [Peter:] Okay. Erm [clears throat] I would... imagine Tukuse that the [cough] the difference that you put in difference that you would get between the reportage, to use a French expression, of Princess Diana's abdication from public life... was probably quite pronounced between say for example the Sun newspaper and the Independent newspaper... I would imagine that the Independent newspaper probably didn't play in any great significance, it was probably on the front page, perhaps not with a picture but erm... there was a couple of columns of report erm the Independent is famous as being the newspaper which when Prince Charles and Lady Diana got married many years ago, they reported it with a single paragraph saying Prince Charles and Diana, the whole world went made at the Royal Wedding and the Independent had one paragraph, which many people, including myself, said right on. It was, it was, it was the right thing to do. They, I think like everybody else were succumbed to the fact that readers do like to know what's going on in the Royal Family. The other end of the scale the erm Sun gets much of its [clears throat] editorial exclusives and material often running to five or six pages erm... by covering the Royal Family erm in terms of language in that in the language used, the Sun erm... tends to adopt a very simple writing style of one adjective erm... sorry one verb and a number of adjectives with a couple of nouns, tends to be sentence went off around ten to twelve words and [cough] the design is also quite interesting because... they like to sort of leave things out so you have a paragraph in normal type and then a paragraph in bold with big splodges next to it to highlight it. I think the idea is that Sun is that they see it as somebody's gone poof poof want to be to write quickly and they would argue that a Sun reader has a sharp attention span. My own view that Sun readers aren't stupid and that the general public isn't really a stupid erm but erm... they enjoy reading it and they're reading for the experience of reading, getting their views and are very... almost like, have you ever seen processed cheese slabs, you know you can buy little pieces of cheese in little wrappers that stick on your bread or your butter or your rolls and the way the Sun, the Sun newspaper's kind of like that, if you don't wanna read thirty five pages in the Independent every day, enormous amount of news terrifically written, reported for the, for the most part, you could read the Sun at a quarter of the price, [LAUGHTER] except that you don't get all the news and you also get er a different political viewpoint... but it's one way of getting news in er... [Anne:] But very often I think tabloid journalism is interesting in terms of language because it's very punchy it's succinct because i i in some of our terms you might find people into a three minute reader and a thirty minute reader... because in attention span and intellectual capacity are quite different... but to actually condense something... into meaningful short bursts, even if they are politically biased actually requires a certain amount of skill I would suspect [clears throat] the clarity index which I can't find is the process that I mentioned the other night where you take... erm some people call it the fog index... a... correct me if I'm wrong in my figures, but I think it's a piece of something like two hundred or three hundred words... you count the number of suc erm colons and full stops or is it only full stops? [Susan:] Full stops. [Anne:] Full stops. You then count the number of words of more than two syllables [Susan:] Mm. [Anne:] and then you do a division of the one into the other and you get a figure... that is smaller in the tabloids and larger in broadsheets like The Times and The Financial Times and in periodicals like the Communist and the New Statesman. [Susan:] And it it it's called the fog index but the thing that's interesting about it is that I've got, I've got some interesting examples of fog indexes erm... and you'll get people like Churchill... who sometimes made speeches and their fog index is quite small... you're going to use this you know... example and they might have a fog, fog index that's fine and what Anne and I are talking about with say something like the Telegraph or the Times or whatever, might have a fog index that people but this is because Churchill was very clear, very concise... and going back to the original point about, or some of the original points about this, and I was mak raising these issues earlier this evening... one of the great sadnesses that I have is that, is that when I first went into journalism the tabloids as we call them... were incredibly well written... beautifully styled, well researched and okay they might have been punchier and shorter and everything else, compared to the turning up the er the, the Times or whatever, but they were well written... and you might have had, if you can put the fog index test, test on it you might have had a fog index of say six or seven compared to eleven on the Telegraph story, but it was still full of clarity [door creak] like to read. Over the last twenty years or so, one of the things that's slipped has been those kind of things and I believe... and Peter may disagree with me, but a lot of the have been because of the commercial fact... that the thing [phone rings] that is now driving the newspapers more than anything else is, is the advertising and advertising revenues and that drives the style of newspapers and stories that are written. I suppose [sigh] one of the things I use to demonstrate it most clearly is that for many years I s I gave lectures on communications and one of the things I used to say in those lectures was I did not know, and I was stressing that sense what came first... if newspapers write stories in a particular way, because that is what the public wanted... or do public want a particular type of story and that's that newspapers round-up and I stopped posing that question when Rupert Murdoch bought the Melbourne Sun... because Rupert Murdoch bought the Melbourne Sun and introduced a lot of sex-type stories... you know stories about brothels and madames whipping people and goodness knows what else and the sales rocketed... and there we had almost a captive example of change in the design of change in the type of stories that were written and people, people were buying it... and so you have an issue of you know that your content was actually being by what your readership wanted. So that answers all those years that I have been conducting these seminars, it answers my question... not in the way I was particularly happy about I have to say, but I mean it did answer my question... and then it may be them... having you know I mean like sort of things I may not be particularly happy with, but maybe it is good that the papers are reflecting what the community wants. Maybe my unhappiness is more about wants [Peter:] [clears throat] But in a sense I mean I can erm... I mean I agree with everything you've said, erm but er... when Murdoch took over the Sun I mean the Sun was selling, at one point was selling about four million copies which is [Susan:] Someone else Melbourne [Peter:] Okay, yeah I, I, I, I appreciate that, but I mean I would erm... basically say that the less Melbourne Sun. Well probably, not that he went and it would of we subsequently we apply much to the U K erm [Susan:] to know anyway. [Peter:] But I mean I, I, I'm... I'm guessing, I'm assuming, I'm not sure he did, but I have seen erm when I was in Edinburgh studying communications, if you work in the Sun which was erm a broadsheet for Murdoch on it. Yeah and we've seen some different erm they had I think it was actually waiver paper as well when Murdoch bought it, and for a while he honoured the political content and then he decided he was gonna do major changes, and this may all sound [LAUGHTER] familiar [] to you but erm... the effect that that had I mean not only on the, on the, on the end up being this side, but also on erm the Mirror because it meant that Page Three Girls were in on the Daily Record in Scotland erm... it was, it was quite profound I mean there's a broader argument here as to whether you... you should get pampered to those possible denominator to taste erm... it's interesting that the Daily Sport and the Sunday Sport which are two... I don't know if they have anything like it in Japan, but they're a bit like the National Enquirer erm... it's all... made up baseball... there's a sad proportion of erm... journalist stories [LAUGHTER] of fantasy land stuff erm... along with erm photographic content and er copy content which probably [Anne:] It's fiction not fact [Peter:] verges on the sort of porn as well yeah. I mean like I saw a double-decker bus on the moon and that sort of stuff. [Susan:] Mm. [Peter:] You know an and I met Elvis at the chip shop and [LAUGHTER] that stuff, I mean it's [] [Susan:] Anyway it's fiction. [Peter:] Anyway it's fiction erm... basically I mean for me there's two issues, one do you pamper to the worst possible taste erm... and two... erm... is the Sun the face of newspapers to come er It's that one. I mean [Anne:] But newspapers essentially are [paper rustling] [Peter:] Four million copies of that I mean that makes it I think most popular with newspapers I mean [Susan:] I mean I, I was quite fascinated having lunch one day with a journ a Melbourne journalist... erm and this was about six months after Murdoch had taken over the Melbourne Sun all this... and we were chatting away and I actually threw in the stuff which were saying about how papers are there to make profits these days... so that's what drives them and that journalists... journalists on newspapers such as Murdoch's papers, write what they're supposed to write and she and I got quite out of with one another and... and... the bottom liner was that she, she absolutely totally and utterly denied what we were saying... and I said to her okay... if you were given a story to write... you know and it was opposite to how you would view it, what would you do and she said oh well I, I would have to write it... and the issue with the Murdoch papers and it's quite interesting because I mean I'm sure you can with other newspapers but I, I've just got a bit more is that Murdoch never ever writes a minute or a memo to his editor or staff saying this is what the line is... ever. He never writes a memo saying... you know we are supporting or attacking this government as about this election campaign, never, but journalists know what his view is... and they write in a code with that view... and if they didn't they would quickly find out where they should be... and it would not be working for one of those newspapers... and the thing that's quite perverse about it is the. First of all he will have one newspaper running one line and another newspaper running another... This is something that's quite fascinating they came over [Peter:] Today's [Anne:] We have two quite different publications [Peter:] That is owned by the same stable if you like, it's a publisher and it's the Sun. [Anne:] Oh [Peter:] I think I am right in saying. Yeah er if you, what was on tonight was er on the, there was a T V programme on tonight called What the Papers Say and the editor Alistaire Campbell was on tonight, he is actually quite left-wing and this paper will, is actually quite vehement about the government, much more than the Sun would ever be, it's quite interesting, yet that is owned by Murdoch, but I have to say that I think that is only because Murdoch isn't liked in that way since to have [Susan:] about Murdoch the Australian inverted commas because that his, he was, I mean when I first, I, I don't know the man... but when I first knew about him in Australia he was a he supported the Labour government's election in... in Australia. What has happened with him since, since he became more of a... big newspaper owner, is he shifted from that and he has been known to support a Labour government in Australia and a Tory government in Britain at the same time and George Bush in the United States while supporting Keating or Bob Hawk in Australia. I mean he's been known to do that because he you know what is going to happen with him... commercially in his newspapers and he's actually very clever and I mean none of us... I mean okay and I think Peter might be the but I can get quite upset or intense or distressed or whatever the word is about that sort of stuff, because I am... my background is journalism... and I'm quite pure about it, but we're living in reality times here... and the reality times is that he has got certain agendas. He's not Robinson Crusoe, there are other old newspaper owners so he will say okay the government in Australia is doing... what I like, therefore my newspapers or usually most of my newspapers, in fact one or two of them won't, will support that government... and that government can be totally different one in the United States where in the Washington Post or you know in the New York Post or whatever will go and attack or support because he thinks it's in the less interest that his commercial interest and the U S because he sees us doing the same thing there. You go to Singapore where he has interests, you go to Hungary where he has interests, you go to different parts of the Europe where has interests and then you go to Britain where he has interests and you can [paper rustling] and so what we're talking about here really I mean that's we're talking here of commercial interest. You see we're not talking of newspapers as we probably traditionally known, we're talking commercial interest. [Anne:] The language register of the broadsheets... will be more sedate, more steady. It may be highly critical that the actual language will be completely different in the register. [Susan:] Yes. [Anne:] The tabloids will go for brevity and sensationalism. They will go for vocabulary which is highly charged with imagery and emotion. [Susan:] Mm. [Anne:] The others will chip in if they agree, but they will... they are, they are wanting to set a missile to move, they're wanting to send a bullet, they are wanting to s to evoke emotion or anger or rage or frustration or political bias or to change attitudes now for example the interesting thing about the Princess Diana erm the headline on one of those tabloids which talks about exile... is I suspect that they want to evoke the constitutional crisis which there was at the time of... [Susan:] Edward. [Anne:] Edward and Wallace Simpson, because Edward abdicated in order to marry a divorced American and so they then went to live in exile and he was eventually, after he died he was buried in Britain, but... Wallace Simpson, or the Duchess of Windsor or as she then was... [Tukuse:] Did she get divorced? [Anne:] She did. [Susan:] Mm. [Anne:] funeral [Susan:] There was a special dispensation given to her to attend and in fact there were photographs at the time with the Queen with her. [Anne:] Yes. [Susan:] But I mean it was the story to run that while sh the Queen was with her it was a it was not war erm... I mean a, a, a whole part of story like [Anne:] Do you think that's reasonable about the ex the use of the word exile? [Susan:] I think I [Anne:] Absolutely to reach the historical crises [Susan:] some some extra layers on this, I mean I think that's very valid and the extra layers include er one, the fact that since then there have been a number of royals who have divorced and so it is not unique for royals to be divorced and the Church of England has not jumped up and down about the fact that there are royals who are divorced... [police sirens] particularly given that the, you know the Church of England are opposed to divorce. The second issue is the fact that Charles is the head Church of England. This is a really major issue, because I mean he, there would be a situation where the person who would be Head of the Church of England would be a divorcee... of a church which does not believe in divorce. [Anne:] And divorce is or sorry, remarriage is not allowed for members of the Anglican Church. [Tukuse:] How about divorce? [Anne:] They er well I think constitutionally it's very difficult and this is why there is now in a similar sense as why I suggested it to you as a subject, because not only... it was er a very emotional story of a glamorous young woman saying I can't cope with being treated by the media and other people, I'm going to retreat... but what made it so historic and therefore the treatment of it's so interesting, was that it presented such an extraordinary constitutional position [Susan:] That's right [Anne:] for us here in Britain. [Susan:] because as long as they don't divorce, theoretically when Charles becomes King his queen and therefore you can have a situation where, I mean if the Queen is there for another twenty years say, say the situation in twenty years time where you have king on throne and a queen who have not lived together for thirty years or whatever years... and you know still playing out this... [Anne:] The other interesting thing you would find about vocabulary and treatment between the tabloids and the Independent is the Independent has a policy of very little coverage of the Royal Family and I suspect that other than a paragraph or a sentence or two of introduction, that those four paragraphs at the foot of the page are simply the text of her speech... courtiers and media blamed as the Princess retreats from public life, I suspect that you will find that that is not a story, it is simply a statement of fact and an actual reprint of the text of her speech. I think you will find there are no observation, no overtones, no emotion, no judgment. What happens with the language about the rest of these is that they are making judgments... [Susan:] Yes, that's right but though I mean there are a couple of additional issues to that and that is that the... the tabloid are pandering, is that the right word pandering to their collective view of what the Royal Family should be, a view that is probably... wrong. [Anne:] [LAUGHTER] they're pandering to [] ghoulish voyeurism. [Susan:] Well there's that I mean there's all, there's a whole range of things, there's ghoulish voyeurism right, I mean that that's important, there's also the way the Royals have been peddled by the media over the decades and the fact that you know this has been how they've been tendered this is what they actually are... and that y you, you know what I'm saying that erm or whatever it is between this is what they are, this is what we've been and they don't match, they really don't match. I mean sexy little telephone calls between he who will be king and his, is she a mistress, is she a girlfriend, is she merely a friend, but at any event she's married and her husband's in the next bedroom as far as we can gather, you know erm do those kind of conversations and would, I mean maybe it's important to sort of say and Anne probably has this, but Peter might not, I mean when I grew up the Royal Family were a cert sort of image... and you might have known about George the Third who was mad, I mean who else was brought up George the Third was mad and Geor an and this guy was a, a drunk and this guy was a... a womaniser, this guy was this, but Victoria you know mourned for sixty years or whatever it was, but this Royal Family, I E the, the Royal Family with which I grew up and Anne did were really sweet nice little Windsors who behaved themselves... and that was what was, went into our psychic and there was the odd crack about Phil the Great who's the Queen's husband, you know and how he perhaps had an eye for the ladies, but there was never any photographs of him being or any evidence that it might have gone further than that particular and basically there was, that any, there was the fact that he was a sailor when he married the Queen anyway so all sailors are like that aren't they! But then here we are twenty thirty years on and those of us who had that upbringing about the purity of that Royal Family that's suddenly been confronted with this image that's anything but that and you know and I'm, and I, and it's been and now you have the tabloids... saying... giving you pictorial evidence of its any, any but that and so that whole erm image, view that a lot of Britons grew up with has gone, it's been [Anne:] But, but, but the whole social and cultural... revolution evolution change has led I think to... whole different schisms in the press which perhaps may have existed in some of the very one might almost say near communist publication like the [Susan:] Daily Worker. [Anne:] Daily Worker... whereas the now the immediacy of telecommunications and the immediacy of print [Susan:] Mm [Anne:] are that this is... transmitted throughout the world within minutes of being spoken so you have the monarchy which has tried to make itself populist, has actually made its language much more populist. If you listen sometimes to speeches made by the Royal Family now, they are not necessarily... to my mind... and er this is this difficulty of the sort of humanity and effemininity of the Duchess of York and the Princess of Wales who tried I think, both of them, to do a phenomenal amount of public work with different levels of success and different levels of coverage. [Peter:] Don't agree I think er [Anne:] But oh Peter's been a a a all, all for self-indulgence to create their own image for their own purpose. [Peter:] I think they had a jolly good time at the taxpayer's expense, I but I won't be [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] It's [Susan:] But I think I mean I think that [Anne:] So they have they have in fact embarked on a course which now lets these newspapers... really deliver them up on a plate I mean they can fry them, they can bake them, they can grill them, they can roast them because they've put themselves in a position where they now deserve the criticism and the level of imagery which they're getting. For example if you go back to say... Queen Victoria and Queen Mary... and one of my former bosses was a godchild of Queen Mary and I mean he simply said to me talking not long ago about one of the nobody... i people didn't behave like that at court... so they've really asked for everything they've got. [Susan:] I think there's probably a strong view about that. I mean it's interesting I mean I, I made all those comments earlier about and I mean Peter he might disagree with them, but what I think is how we view the Royals as we were all growing up. [Anne:] But if my kid comes off a pedestal, the language comes off the pedestal too. [Susan:] Absolutely now I mean i i it's interesting for women because I suppose... [sigh] in Australia I was a Republican and here I suppose I thought I saw about two erm now for me to have used that word... thirty years ago I would possibly have been locked in the garden shed and left without food and drink [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Susan:] erm... I suspect a few members of family [Peter:] To be a social worker was shit yeah. [Susan:] That's right. [Peter:] You'd be there six o'clock gone mate. [Susan:] Wonderful. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Susan:] I suspect now that you know I mean I they might still to move given to one or two of my family members, but basically I could more openly say... you know that in fact... I suppose my view in Britain but not in Australia but my view in Britain is okay, the Royal Family could continue to exist they must A pay taxes B I don't genuflect to any of them and C we've gotta put them in perspective they're in which is they're a tourist attraction erm... you know but I and I can make those comments which would be met by a lot of Britons with hostility, people who would totally disagree with me and say well they are the Royals and you know bow, bow, bow, but others would agree with me and that is something that has changed over the last three decades it really has, it's changed during, during my absence in Australia, it is something you know that I came back to and I mean I kept, I've been back about three or four weeks and there's a pro I mean there's some delightful radio programmes here... comedy, political comedy shows and there was one show I listened to and I had been back a couple of weeks and it was about... erm... the Queen had a P R issue and she had to sort of do something about it, so she decided they'd have a public execution of Edward... and they described Edward was a cream puff and they the Queen and... and er... Andrew and everybody else was on the balcony at er Buck House and the crowds are cheering and the rolled and the... the execution. Now I cannot concede that programme going on the air when I was to Melbourne. Cannot concede that it had been possible and neither will shift in how we communicate and view the place of the Royals in our society and what the are and how those P R shifts a phrase in terms of let's make ourselves more public, let's make ourselves more accessible, have resulted in that because their very their very accessibility is the those kind of radio programmes to happen. It just wouldn't have happened I mean [Peter:] But I wa [Susan:] I was shocked. I listened to it I was shocked, not because of the content, but because of the happening of it and the realization of how Britain had changed. [Anne:] You see one of the other interesting things is that there is a... essentially a tradition in this country that the Royal Family do not sue newspapers [Susan:] Yes. [Anne:] for libel. There are various exceptions erm... and there have been two or three in recent years, but it therefore meant that they were fair game for saying anything... so they were fair game for a very sensational headline... because there was very little chance of recrimination. [Susan:] Mm. [Anne:] Now the view er was that they were dignified and above taking action... and also in the sense that the public was credited I think with more sense than to believe everything... and that the public memory is relatively short and therefore if you start a court action and you then have coverage in the court action, you are merely making the thing... worse... erm sometimes the things that some people may have thought were highly actionable one day, become almost a joke and something of affection later on and you can, one of the classics maybe is about the Prince of Wales talking to his plants, now that a national joke and he will make jokes about it in speeches [Susan:] Mm. [Anne:] and it's become of the exchange of, of, of talk and of media erm... but what else do we say about language register and vocabulary? Length of words [Tukuse:] Oh yes. [Anne:] Erm [Tukuse:] You mean so w [Peter:] Shorter [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anne:] Yeah, not physical length of words. Now in a sentence in the Independent and the Times and other periodicals you would find there are more words of three and four syllables than in the tabloids, but that gets back to the clarity index again. [Susan:] That's right [Anne:] But it's not just necessarily the number that there are, it a it's the whole type of vocabulary, the whole register. [Peter:] Also I think you'd find that the erm er although, now I'm suggesting you do this, but if you went through the Independent and you counted the erm number of different words the total vocabulary, I think you'd find it's many many many many many many many times bigger than the [Susan:] That's right [Peter:] I'm not sure, but I think when I studied this in college I think it was something like the average of producers of vocabulary of less than two thousand words. [Susan:] Mm. [Anne:] So if you have [Susan:] sorry. [Peter:] Er we're talking nineteen eighty, eighty two I was there so it ten year ten fourteen years. [Anne:] Do you think it would be greater now? [Susan:] No, no actually no, not at all. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Susan:] Erm the reason I'm asking is because I suspect it would have been greater at the time I was talking about all the ago though. I think that that is, is something that you know we looked at the you know the Mirror that you know while thirty years ago they were doing short punchy stories and they maintained that, that there was actually... [Anne:] A wider range of vocabulary [Susan:] a wider range of vocabulary and, and, and a greater intellectual depth to it and you know I'm, I, I, I actually almost feel tempted to... to get some of the files out and look and make sure I'm not wrong if you, you know what I mean? [Peter:] It would be quite interesting [Susan:] I mean I think [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Susan:] I mean I think you'll find that erm... that there was an amaz you know I mean that, that while the language might have been simple... it wasn't simplistic... and, but the change in a... in a way now is around. [Peter:] Yeah. [Susan:] Do you know, do you know, am I being clear about that? [Peter:] Yeah [Tukuse:] Yes [Anne:] But there are, we've got, I've got three books for you to, to look at for you to do with your project and I might try and find you one or two sentences and references. One, the good, bad the... the good, the bad and the unacceptable. [Tukuse:] Mhm. [Peter:] One called shock horror and the tabloids in action... and one called power without responsibility... because I think you could perhaps make in fact the, the taste that... in terms of circulation... the tabloids actually have the power to influence significantly to in int influence public attitudes... so but how they exercise that power is without responsibility. The other thing there is the evidence from the Law Society in England to the committee appointed by the government to look into the question of press self-regulation which has quite a lot to do obviously with privacy for everybody, but also [Anne:] refers to [Peter:] privacy of the Royal Family, public figures. There is a question as to whether public life, she'd be treated differently erm and also whether in fact journalist by not being able to do things that other people can do if they're not writing a newspaper. Does that help you do you think? Any questions you want to ask us? [Tukuse:] Erm... so far I don't. [Peter:] Well [Anne:] Peter was doing a thing about counting words. [Susan:] These are just, are just [Peter:] For for fourteen er years ago when I studied erm communications at one of the things he said was the Sun paragraph would be short short of twenty words, whereas the tabloids would probably qualities they er full size papers would probably be longer, but interestingly enough... the this introduction... the introduction of the story about Princess Diana in the Sun is the same length as introduction about the story of Princess Diana in the Independent. Same way, one of the words about I mean I'll just read it to you. See if you can tell which one is which, it's an interesting test. [cough] [reading] The Princess of Wales yesterday dramatically announced the curtailing of her official duties, widely interpreted as but with complete withdrawal from public [] [Susan:] I would say that was in the Independent. [Peter:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah it is this is how the Sun did it. [Susan:] How does the Sun do it? [Peter:] [reading] Close to tears and her voice quaking with emotion [] [Susan:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Excuse me I have to say [reading] Princess Diana yesterday stunned the world [LAUGHTER] announcing that she is to quit public life []. I have to admit I quite like this that's punchy, that's punchy, straight to the point and I think er you know it's [LAUGHTER] quaking with emotion []. [Tukuse:] Can you say the Independent's for? [Peter:] They are they, they, they are, they're more, they're a more authoritative newspaper erm the Sun has more passion [Susan:] more information I mean this is, I mean this is part of what I was talk mythology I mean we're talking about the index survey so when I raised the example of Churchill and the Churchill ex example is, was a good one... because I mean he was an intellectual in his way, you know I mean he was a big bright cookie... and but his was in terms of word count because he had a use of words... for the way he used his words was... how ordinary people would understand him I mean if you go back to you know we will fight them on the beaches and everything else I mean you think of the number of syllables he used in those words etcetera, etcetera I mean that's sort of what I'm getting to I mean he had his sharp succinct approach you know [Anne:] Yes he had I think he had an intuition and an instinct and a feel for... the common man. [Peter:] He would have made he would have made a good Sun journalist. [Anne:] The man, the man who's the man or the man in the street... and he had that... empathy... which allowed him to [Susan:] And, and I mean I, I, I'm making I'm mak I'm deliberately making these points because he is viewed as someone who perhaps wouldn't have been a Sun type but more of a, a Telegraph type or whatever, but when you've analyzed his, his words and his speeches and everything else... in terms of what we're talking about the tabloids or broadsheets or whatever, you know he would, his language would have fitted in more neatly to the tabloid style than the... the Telegraph style. I think it's a very wonderful thing I mean I regard him as a warmonger World War Two by his eighteen month should have been

[speaker001:] Just one suggestion worth mentioning erm [paper rustling] one of those the er one on employment industry and commerce has now been printed and has been distributed and I hope that all members have now received. The other on population and housing, erm has been delayed in being sent to the printers, in order that we might incorporate some of the erm information from last year er so that the document would be thereby erm even more er immediately useful and in consequence it won't be available until either the end of the month or the very beginning of February, but er progress is on a... is in hand on that er that's all I wanted to say to you. [speaker002:] Thank you and you have seen the [speaker001:] Er Chairman yes, thank you erm there are a number of apologies this morning er on account of the erm er weather conditions, Mr, Mr, Mr, Mr and Mrs. Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] Now on the. [Harold:] Chairman, thank, thank you very much indeed erm... Chairman, I will in fact and er perhaps if I read that in the first instance I haven't circulated it erm... if I read that the first instance it will set the of what I have to say. [clears throat] Er and the proposal that I shall report is the [paper rustling] and in particular those matter our certainty of responsibility between various agencies needs to be addressed... erm it arose obviously are much more widespread than in the past week, but er I was granted in fact to give consideration to this result of the parish meeting, conventional routine parish meeting at Barnham er on the fourth of January erm which led to the largest parish meetings I think they've had in many years erm when because people were incensed with the suffering and the hardship that they had as a result of the flooding on the night of Thursday the thirtieth of December... erm... should let me say first of all that erm... I would congratulate all those who were involved er in dealing with the present emergency operations erm it's quite superb, it's erm it seemed to be erm a remarkable reflection on the capacity er that to deal with certain circumstances reflects very well on this authority and... in saying that I mean it's not just the opposites to the men and women who are involved, but also whereas I'm sure many members are here that members amongst our numbers have putting on very long hours in dealing with the present circumstances and I congratulate on the activities. [cough] The... point that concerned must reaction of the was one that we've heard many times before... who the hell's taking overall view of this? Why are there grave areas, areas of uncertainty and responsibility erm... Rivers Authority er Area Manager I believe, Mr er presented the position from their point of view er in particular circumstances on the night of thirtieth December er the er Southern Water whose responsibility is primarily sewage erm er describes circumstances that they have been contending with and a great deal of criticism erm was what we had to anticipate if you like or do anything er to contend with the unusual circumstances of that night erm the consequence was that a large number of new houses in the very close to the that runs through Barnham and under the railway there erm and er not ordinary surplus water flooding, but sewage flooding and the consequences then for many years er it's obviously going to give, quite apart from having to live with it, er it will on the properties themselves and adversely affect er the ability of individuals to sell them off. Er... but that were full of praise for the activities of the fire service in particular and whilst most was levelled out the N R A Southern Water to some extent District local authority er were coping incredibly well and continue to do so. Er... but there was an implication by implication and the, the particular point was the extent to which surplus water draining off fields er was to the problem and we learnt from the Southern Water representative that there is a an area of uncertainty erm and divided responsibility perhaps erm... about the ditches, about the highways in that vicinity. I gather that in general ditches are the responsibility of Southern Water and then in some point it'll change in but er there are areas in the county er and upon this appears to be one where the ditches adjacent to the highway are the responsibility of the, the Highway Authority, that is the County Surveyor, but it gives you an example of an area in which we responsibility of the public er find it difficult to [speaker001:] [cough] [Harold:] understand why all the agencies involved identify four in those circumstances I think in R A Southern Water district to themselves, because we've got that information repeated across the county erm and it seemed to me important that erm... somebody er accepted responsibility for taking an overall view of the circumstances to er merely because of course we can only concern ourselves with manmade er circumstances rather than er erm... but I think you know members would agree that as a strategic planning authority, we appear to be the only auth er the only body which can erm... in the cold light of day we view the circumstances... look at the implications for strategic planning and local planning and the suggestion of those developments and obviously that would be a concern to us... and er I felt and I have to [unclear because of people whispering in the background for about two minutes] that it is an area of responsibility erm which er within the of this [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Harold:] committee and that on behalf of West Sussex as a whole, we should grasp that responsibility, make it clear and I'm not talking about the emergency arrangements which we're coping with quite adequately it seems to me erm but I'm talking about the coordination and overview of all the er contributing factors erm so that we can demonstrate that there is ultimately one body who can take er a view of these matters er ensure that there are not grey areas in future and to er initiate er action wherever it may be dealt with necessary. [speaker002:] Thank you very much Mr, I just want to... to ask if there were any legal observations? [speaker001:] Er Chairman thank you erm the wording which we've been erm given by Mr erm refers to erm in particular those matters where uncertainty of responsibility between various agencies needs to be addressed... erm as far as this committee is concerned of course, erm our erm er role is that as a strategic planning authority and er I'm quite sure that there will be erm an analysis after the event erm most likely by the Fire and Public Protection Committee who, to whom emergency planning erm are answerable and it's the Emergency Planning Team who shoulder our responsibilities as a County Council erm and er any implications then for the Strategic Planning Committee will no doubt be taken into. Erm if you wish to proceed with this proposal, I would suggest perhaps that erm it isn't uncertainty of responsibility but perhaps the extent of responsibilities and powers of the various agencies which need to be clarified and I, it is, it is pro probably that area which erm will be addressed by er th the analysis which takes place erm after the immediate problems are behind us er but certainly the implications for the Strategic Planning Committee erm and for, perhaps for local planning or something which erm the Chief Officers could be asked to report back to this Committee. [speaker002:] Now we've got four speakers so far on this matter er Chris [Chris:] Yes thank you Chairman erm I think important question very similar question I think we're... we're all wondering whether the changed landscape of West Sussex, the changed use of [howling wind in background] West Sussex has had any influence on the flooding and as the County Council has pointed out worst amount of rain we've had for about seventy years or so I think it's very useful and important er to ask questions an and when this crisis is over we reflect on what we can learn from it, but I... must bear in mind that it is first and foremost extraordinary climatic conditions which have caused these problems and that in itself of course might have implications erm... the whole of global warming does tend to come to mind when you see what's happening in Australia as well as what's happening here erm that's certainly not anything [LAUGHTER] that agencies great or small can have any control over. I wanted specifically to address myself to... to one rumour which seems to be a circulating dilemma, a great deal of enthusiasm and I heard that at er Chichester Railway Station today erm... the staff at Chichester Railway Station seem to be under the impression that the erm the emergency planning authorities er have imminent proposals to breach the railway line south of to allow the flood water to escape to the sea, with the result so I was quite earnestly and er without any doubt that the railway will be closed for six months erm... the, the Chairman of the County Council just raised this issue with the Emergency Planning, I understand that this is er an unsubstantiated rumour and er... that there be a an immediate er destruction of the [LAUGHTER] railways [] is not imminent but er I think perhaps it shows that erm probably due to the... the great media interest and all sorts of stories are er doing a round but it goes without saying of course that the railway wasn't closed for six months to the railway, but I don't think there is any er... any prospect to that, but I think the Chairman Council feels that. [speaker002:] You want to say something? [speaker001:] Yes Chairman I would. First of all I would like to say that I think erm much of, pretty well all of Mr has brought forward he, he, he's worthy of attention of support. Erm it w would be er... pretty foolish I think after the lessons that have been learned about this that you know we should sink back i i into erm contentment as it were, er, er, er, er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] erm you know [cough] perhaps in six months or in sixty years erm facing the same kind of problem again er I, I can erm I have... close experience with a situation on my, on my own patch which rises from time to time an and is most unpleasant for the people in and it goes back if I might say so an and therefore the planning considerations that have been mentioned need to be paid attention to. It goes back to the fifties when the local authority, in this case the Worthing Rural District Council... would not approve the plan for a... small development A Twenty Seven in near the roundabout at Manor. Er the developers as we all know have a right to go to appeal which they did and [cough] of the day I don't which government it was at that time cos it was in the fifties... okayed it and [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] th th the building went ahead and... people... every year or two sometimes twice in a year get flooded and they get sewages the... the sewer with the volume of rain water they can't otherwise get away, but it brings to light what happens i i i in the ditches and, and the waterways that are spread across the direction of Airport and then out into the river when the tide is low because the switches close when the tide comes in and basically er and this is up to date information... the information that I have is that the channels are the responsibility of the... er you know responsibilities are either kept cleared or not clogged up and in connection with the, with the incident [clears throat] I, I did hear it said that in, in a place where once said it usually counts that... possibly and more than the... that the first flood was due because the drains and the ditches couldn't take the volume of water after they were cleared... and things have been... pretty reasonable erm since that time, so it would seem to... confirm what, what I have to say about keeping clear erm but it may be that... authorities that weren't responsible had the job of cleaning them, I don't know. But here in Chichester Chairman, it's er a pretty serious situation where you've got a... a small river... causing tremendous volumes of water er levels of which I think have never been experienced with anybody er going through a very small city... built in eighteen hundreds I don't know what time and date you know, but a very long time ago. Erm the volume i i is tremendous [microphone moved] and er one worries about the effect of the surging waters on such an old construction, now we far worse than [too far away from the microphone] and consequently the emergency services have had to consider all sorts of alternatives, some of which you see now with the piping... on, on the surface of it's been having a good result the immediate problem, but you can't stop there and the emergency team have given consideration to all sorts of other possible temporary solutions in the event or that the pumping failed and er I think that's possibly where this rumour about erm the railway line arrived but er I think Chairman I've said enough, we all, we would all agree I think that the emergency workers have performed er I think we're all pleased to see the army coming in erm and doing what they've done and erm I certainly er appreciated the opportunity to come in on the old A Twenty Seven through West it took my mind back er many years I can tell you [LAUGHTER] and erm... I, I think congratulations all round are due, but I come back to what's all saying and which I support as it would be a folly when the dust has settled erm to really take a... an objective er position and see that... er arrangements are in hand... channels and things like that will not again be supercharged in the way they are. [speaker002:] I've been generous in the latitude I've given to speakers in... talking to this proposal, but it is quite specific about the... the review of er responsibilities... [speaker001:] Erm well can I er carry on the erm but er no shortly. The... sadness and this is this subject was forecast a year and a half ago er that we are phasing in i in large management and land and it was raised, we had that seminar but before that there were also erm worries expressed before this predicament. Erm I know it's associated with over extraction of water at certain points but [LAUGHTER] but be that as it may, but in the old days the Sussex Lands Committee er used to be er a county function and did take an overview erm of the whole West Sussex scene in terms of what happened erm it is now really now erm not our responsibility, although we put members on it, it's a now fairly weak er joint body but it's pretty toothless. One of the problems a few people said clear the ditches, well that's not true we, there is a, there is a, the law is erm very er diverse on this subject, it's er in certain cases, it's landowners, the farmers erm and that those have been neglected, we're paying the cost of really complacency. Well okay, we know that now and I think a lot of people have er taken up er that into account. Erm I don't think that as a committee that we should be getting into the detail necessary of what's going wrong and I think er Harold made that quite well. Look at the implications looking back over it when... when Fire and Public Protection had produced their report, but certainly the things are and it's quite clear that we all know this case in my particular the river has been constricted by some thoroughly bad planning decisions and development control districts and they're paying them that the owners are paying the penalty for that erm reducing the ditches and er building over them and okay we've got problems erm so er... there are structure plan implications erm which I don't I think we should miss and if we say that really building on a is a principle well then we should try it right into the structure plan or looking at local plans for approval that we actually look at this a little bit more carefully. Now the thing that worries me is that the N R A and our linkage with them is I don't think it's early days for them and they haven't got the... the power and the erm law behind them to enforce it as the way which I think most of us would like to think of have a erm erm an organization tha that can in fact start bringing the law in that if people fail to do what they say erm so that aspect I think I... now Chris also mentioned this erm tilting in West Sussex and again that mentioned in the structure plan, because I six mill a year but in ten years that's two and a half inches. Now the implication of that is that the tide flaps and the sluices er will operate it slightly less frequently in ten years. The Chairman of the erm that is already occurring, we've had a number of reports erm already er flooding is based on a tide flap system erm... so those you know we're gonna have to live with that over the years. Now we've got another opportunity system, erm but it's too early they think that the... the water is coming up in I think February isn't it... another or was it the coastal but it's with but whether we want at the end of it to have another water seminar, looking instead of extraction side [LAUGHTER] but what the water companies are doing with our rivers it might not be a bad idea [] as part of er producing a considered view later on in the year... but I don't, I don't think we can hurry this as there's a lot of lessons to be learnt and I... I don't think we should do the work in the Fire and Public Protection Committee erm... in... getting our erm eyes taken off the dealing with the actual problem at the moment, we want to look, step, step back and say well what... what was the cause of all that, but I do support erm proposal that we should have it listed as er [speaker002:] This proposal has whetted peoples appetites are formal speakers erm Mr? [Alan:] Yeah, thank you Chairman, I think was right and proper, we should congratulate the services involved in dealing with this emergency. They've been working very hard, in some cases long hours [paper rustling] I think it's right because this is a similar discussion we had by... Public Protection Committee about a report and the main thing about the report is to find ways in which this could be avoided and that we could take such action as necessary and obviously some matters to avoid such a happening again... but having said that other parts of West Sussex have always tended to be erm when you get excess rain erm you tend to get flooded in on the train many times some houses have got boats down the bottom of their garden and it's not just now it's been flooded, but it has been flooded in more recent times and that's probably something we should be looking at. If we're looking at the question of services coming together to deal with the emergency erm obviously I suppose the army and that will come in on a voluntary basis which but it might be necessary to see where someone could be authority to coordinate the services and bring it whatever is required. One question I did ask at the Fire and Public Protection Committees what happens when you don't, when we bring in a unity authority status. What happens if we've got an emergency situation and how come when you got about three or four different authorities to deal with that matter and the other thing that has been said [LAUGHTER] people said it to me, the question of building... and in some parts of West Sussex we've got concrete jungles and that itself can cause flooding because water doesn't drain would do through natural resources through its natural... well drain away. So yeah, I support the Committee, I think... on the question of the report I think we need to be absolutely specific about what committee deal with what issue of that report. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mrs? [speaker006:] Chairman, you've been so generous in this particular item and I'll be as quick as I can. There seems to be a consensus opinion, so i it doesn't seem to be necessary for me to it, but if it's necessary I do so. One can look back in eighty seven when we had that terrible storm and they said well once in a hundred years and then we had a storm very similar I think it is essential we look [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker006:] look into this erm we always consult with the water authorities on any planning application and it is up to them to say whether there should be flooding or not. I think that they are only just getting into their stride on this particular issue, because some years ago we had flooding in Worthing, quite severe flooding, so every application went to the Southern Water Authority and we never got back no, you can't develop [LAUGHTER] on that area [] and it was, it was very difficult. Erm... I can only say that I believe that there should be an examination of them erm we need to know exactly erm... what brought about these tremendous floods. We have heard on the television that there will be another and there are lots of people who are in, in absolute despair, because of what happened to their houses and their properties and their furniture and everything else and I think it is only right and proper and I can only say that West Sussex County Council has... by so many people that it has [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker006:] brought about or alleviated all the pain and anxiety on [speaker002:] Mr? [speaker007:] Yes erm my point is the erm the reserve the section that comes out... erm that's not dealt with local authorities experienced two weeks ago worst flooded. This was caused apparently by a private. Is there any way the Council can erm control private properties water er the damage can do in such situations as this? [speaker002:] I'm sure that will be covered... [sigh] this word responsibility frightens me or makes me apprehensive. Er Mr? [speaker008:] Thank you Chairman. Well yes it is certainly fascinating to hear the views of, of members an and indeed it, it's tempting to go on I think about or personal experience of floods, but this is not the time or the place I would suggest to do that erm strategic planning seems to me has been the venue for discussions with Southern Water Authority with the National Rivers Authority itself, we are the committee that tries to look many, many years ahead. We have a particular role which is different er indeed to Fire and Public Protection, although I accept the fact that they have the overview for emergency planning. We have a different role, but nevertheless and even, an important one is perhaps in even looking further ahead than the Emergency Planning and therefore I would support er in being brief I would support very much erm Mr 's er motion if you can call it a motion which has been seconded and I hope that other members will... will agree that erm we can pass this on to the Chief Executive who obviously will be doing this in any case, but it would give er a a an added er measure if you like er I'm talking in terms of member involvement in pressing for er a wider look of what has happened after this sad flood has been dealt with. [speaker002:] John was need to reply to [speaker001:] [whispering] [] Thank you Chairman erm... I don't I need to say a great deal because the comments that have been made I think are very thoroughly and expertly covered most of the ground in terms of the... the issues that are being raised and can I say that although er... a number of Chief Officers, a number of departments and I suspect a number of committees will be looking at what has happened and er seeking in both to find out why it has happened and what might be done in the future... erm I certainly recognize that it's er a role responsibility of this committee and of er me and the Planning Department to consider the implications for strategic planning and for the related functions and that erm it won't be a, a, a happy task because er purely it's something that all of us would have hoped hadn't happened at all but I will er very er thoroughly er explore the issues and report it back. The, the only thing that I would say Chairman is that erm planning and er... er the role of planning is related amongst other things to development and every single solitary er element in development has an effect, maybe only small and it may be distant, but does have an effect on er water falling as rain and thereby on run-off. Erm every new square inch of hard surface on the ground or roofing er means that less rain when it falls will er move into the ground or will run off more quickly or rapidly fill the water courses and er sooner reach the points of constriction that we know about and cause flooding problems. Therefore as well as it being a problem of development within the flood plain it is also a problem of development beyond the flood plain... and as well as development and I er think this in no way intending to spread the blame, but is a, is a er an observation which er I think is quite clear and that is that farming practices erm can have both beneficial and adverse effects on water regimes [speaker002:] [blowing nose] [speaker001:] the introduction of additional drainage er within a field, for er example itself can increase the rate of run-off. Similarly a different regime of cropping can er in some instances reduce the amount of run-off and increase the absorption er capability er of the land. That I think is something that perhaps also needs to be borne in mind, when we are undertaking er this particular study. The message Chairman an and er having an idea of, of your second item of urgent business erm it, this perhaps provides the link... the important er point that I wanted to emphasise was that the issue of rainfall, the defect on erm the drainage of an area and er water catchment areas and so on, drainage basins is a matter which can only be dealt with at the strategic level and it is therefore of considerable concern to me in view of local government and the questions that is raising about the future of strategic planning could actually make this coordination much more difficult in the future, unless we take steps now to protect the er strategic planning, whatever form local government takes strategic planning itself also needs a degree of [speaker002:] [cough] [Harold:] to allow us to deal with these issues. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. Well I'm very grateful to Mr for raising this in such a way and for the members' contribution. Could I remind you that Policy G One, a very opening policy in the... structure plan says that planning authorities will not normally permit development which will cause unacceptable nuisance or danger by way of flooding. It's there... and er that I'm sure was the opening observation in the paper that will be written about responsibility and [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] the other matters. I'm grateful to Mr for raising this very fundamental question which I wished simply to comment on about the strategic aspects, I mean in Chichester we've now had, as you all know, fire and flood and we have the pestilence with us! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I did want... er... Mr to say something about the pestilence, because it is a very serious matter for this Committee. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] reference to the local government [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Chairman [speaker002:] We've, we've accepted I think I'm say I should be saying we have accepted this er proposal... by implication. [speaker009:] Well could we [speaker002:] Formally? [speaker009:] Formally. [speaker002:] Yes please. Thank you... and I am grateful. Could you refer to this... pestilence? [speaker009:] Pestilence Chairman I, I, I think that you are inviting me to say something about er local government review and the erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] th the problems that that is causing erm... I'm... obviously I, I, you know very well I can talk for hours on, on many subjects and this is one of those that I can do so. [speaker002:] Can you just highlight it by Mr on this. [speaker009:] In indeed. Erm... I, I think that erm the er concern that erm we all have relating to local government view erm is... er that... it caused changes in [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] cost money, but as far as this committee is concerned the one, of the particular threats is to strategic planning an and that's something I, I referred to a moment or two ago. Erm the... following the... the last meeting of the committee, erm... the... matter was er raised by your Chairman and er he asked me to send to all of you er a copy of an extract from the erm Commissions Report relating to Derbyshire and a copy of a Department of the Environment press release of the twenty second of October which refers to one or two things that er David Curry had said about strategic planning and that was sent out to all members of the committee on the twenty second of November and erm n not expecting you to have brought back with you or to have remembered exactly what it said, perhaps I can just erm refer to the, the options for erm strategic planning that were outlined by Mr Curry in that press release and i the er erm er paper that he had delivered. Er the three options were joint authorities er this would mean er unitary authorities within an area joining together and forming some sort of er joint committee arrangements and joint staffing arrangements to prepare a plan over a wider area.... There would be erm the possibility of the unitary authorities themselves getting together to prepare joint structure plans, so in as, as, instead of having a joint authority with er... members joining in, in one committee to oversee the preparation of the plan, there would be individual authorities er working to their own committees with members er operating separately, but preparing through that mechanism a joint structure plan and the third option would be for each authority itself to prepare a unitary development plan, incorporating both strategic policies and the sorts of policies that we are currently seeing and familiar with in local plans. Now... I think that the concern that erm I have, and it's shared by colleagues I have to say at both County and at er District Council level, is that none of those will really fully provide a proper strategic planning service and therefore the, the, the threat to proper... forward planning of a coordinated nature across a wider area of land such as is er currently taking place in Sussex, West Sussex and other counties and which is desperately needed as we've seen in the context of the flooding that we've just been talking about, that is in er great danger of being undermined and the alternatives that the government is, is putting forward would in my view not go anywhere at all towards meeting the needs of strategic planning.... As well therefore as the arguments er that we are familiar with about er local government and the effect that it might have or might not have on West Sussex, one particular argument is I think erm something that this committee should be very concerned about an and should be er seeking to influence the, the outcome over is that of future of structure planning and the strategic planning as a whole. I, I hope I've covered the ground that you were hoping I would Chairman. If you want me to say [LAUGHTER] anything more [] just give me a kick and I'll add something more. [speaker002:] No I simply wanted members to be aware that there is a very issue. Mr. [Jim:] Thank you Chairman.... Er with reference to the great pestilence er makes me think of the original great pestilence, the Black Death and of course er contaminated individuals be put in a pest house far away from places of habitation... but they can contaminate others which one can't help thinking that it would be quite a good... policy has commissioned. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] And perhaps we could open up the pest house [speaker001:] [cough] [Jim:] I can seriously erm... comments really made my blood run cold, particularly on option three. The idea of unitary authorities structure plans, er I think could only be a disaster and the first option which is the most viable, could of course be a dissipation of democracy of the indirect democracy er because erm... I think what you probably have is a number of officers, civil servants and a scattering of councillors er and really the... the direct local involvement which we have now through directly elected councillors on, on planning committees and strategic planning committees would have. I am also concerned that if these new unitary authorities come into effect, it seems er reasonable to assume the majority of members will be all the district councillors er whose involvement in planning of course is very different to our own and therefore their understanding of strategic planning, their appreciation of its importance will be far less... and we could actually find that these planning committees authorities are really old district planning committees and the new and er there really could be quite serious implications for a whole number of things in Sussex I mean... we know that the planning department is at the moment trying to erm create er a new and vibrant [speaker001:] [cough] [Jim:] tourism in West Sussex I mean what would happen to that is just one example er on a broader level, the County Council is working with the European regions to promote West Sussex in Europe and what would happen to that, the only conclusion we could draw is that these policies would crumble... and to er seriously affect West Sussex and finally I come back to the point that, that I will keep making, if I ever get the opportunity, namely the cost of this exercise. We know that the actual reorganization is going to cost thirty million... I would have thought that every possible drainage problem could ever West Sussex could easily be rectified with thirty million pounds and we could all name a project er on which we would like to spend thirty million pounds. I would have thought it would be very difficult to find anyone in West Sussex who is enthusiastic and keen with thirty million pounds to be sent to the local government reorganization. All we can do I think is resist this strongly and the whole idea for reorganization particularly this time. [speaker002:] We're stepping a bit outside. I was anxious to alert people to the... to the specific issue of strategic planning... I didn't want to [clears throat] step outside of that.... Well perhaps we should now therefore move to the agenda proper. Application there have been three meetings er those meetings... those. [speaker001:] Er I just wanted... one erm one, two three of... the [cough] third of November... er... I guess that they gave... erm information about Westbourne Parish Council's local paper er erm agreed. It isn't mentioned there. [speaker002:] How do we deal with that? [speaker001:] You just... well it's local members tha tha that is, but the fact is that also you have er a letter from Westbourne Parish Council. Er Chairman And of committee and of... sorry a special erm... meeting between the four officers that produced minutes to all part and this was one of them about this particular issue, which just... just is just to record that Westbourne's Parish Council's er views were taken into account. Chairman, if I... if I may say that the erm the er minutes of that committee were approved by sub-committee at their subsequent meeting on the twenty fourth of November erm I don't think Absolutely. I, I, I see that y you weren't there at that meeting on No, but We, we can record that comment er now in a minute at [speaker002:] Can we? Oh that's fine. [speaker001:] this meeting but er the minutes have already been considered. [speaker002:] Is that er is that Right, we receive er those three lots. Thank you. Now the mineral subs sub-committee. I, I did say to the County Planning Officer that I thought that whoever had wr written this er these pages have captured... the... very well... er very si the spirit of that an and the er... we seem to have a very successful meeting on that [speaker001:] Yes. Yeah that indeed. [speaker002:] and this conveys the flavour of that. We were most anxious to keep the full informed of what's happening and we seem to be on top of the job as it were. [speaker001:] The person who wrote it Chairman is sitting over... [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But I think it is important to keep the full committee abreast of the activities of the sub-committee.... So we receive those. Now the capital programme and the revenue budget, I, I think you questions, it's not a big deal. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Chairman, I, I, I, I'd love to, but I had agreed er with Jim that Jim will introduce this [speaker002:] Oh, I'm sorry [speaker001:] Whilst I'm happy to answer questions when they, when they arise, I wouldn't like to steal Jim's [speaker002:] Sorry. Sorry. [Jim:] Okay. Committee has the choice to spend on capital and that's exercised through the... a mechanism if you spend in capital in the mortgage charge comes through as a, as a revenue charge to you, so you have now paid for mortgage charges and capital schemes or you can pay for er for revenue schemes and this budget reflects its priority on revenue spending. The revenue budget then, there's a summary attached to appendix two here and the detail of the budget is, if the members, if the members are so interested and want to see the... the spent. The headline is that the budget for ninety four ninety five is two point two million pounds and that's an increase of eighty four thousand pounds or... four percent on the original budget for current year and that increase of eighty four thousand pounds and it's split into three elements for you. First was the increase for inflation and that comes to fifty three thousand pounds... this is referred to in paragraph four... thousand pounds is equivalent to two point six percent and the committee's fully protected for inflation.... The second element is the real increased resources for the committee and that comes to thirty five thousand pounds and that's something at one point six percent. Now if you can just say on that, that that excludes any resources for the economic development action plan and for the time being resources for that initiative are being held centrally into Personnel and Finance sub-committee's budget and as the action plans develop then money will be released from a contingency there to er go to the Planning Department or to whichever department that has actually been implementing that particular part of the action. The final element in the change of eighty four thousand pounds between years is the reduction in the committee's budget four thousand pounds for efficiency savings, which we discussed and agreed at the meeting in September.... Focusing then on how the new money has been spent, and this is covered in paragraph seven and eight of the report... the thirty five thousand pounds conditional resources for Policy Resources Committee has been added to by six thousand seven hundred which er savings from existing budgets within the committee so there's a total of forty one thousand seven hundred to er each new developments or er or other pressures within the committee... and the items that you see before you here have been discussed between the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of this committee er County Planning Officer and Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Policy Resources Committee, so it's these sorts of discussions that these items have arisen in front of you. If I can reasonably summarize what they are there, there's four items there er... outlined in paragraph eight. Firstly there's additional support which will take the form of additional members of staff to support with a range of er initiatives and developments within the department erm there's a lot Planning Department, in terms of economic development and tourism developments, local planning work erm... making applications for grants and,an and there's a need for additional support to support that range of work there. The second item is the loss of grant for an archaeology assistant three thousand eight hundred pounds, this is one of these things where we've had English Heritage at our grant and has tapered to fade out. This is final year, ninety four is the final year of that grant, so to maintain the enhanced level of service that there were it was set up we'd need to put some of our own money into that. The item below that is the shortfall in planning application fees, this is application fees for er mineral extraction applications which are, these are set as a statutory charge erm... we've picked up in the budget monitoring reports which have been to previous committees that the from this source has been falling off, as a few words explain that in this paragraph. We anticipate a shortfall of fifteen thousand pounds compared to our original budget and what we've done in that is we've taken an element of seven thousand in a sense below the line so that it doesn't affect this committee, but this committee has had to find eight thousand pounds with that shortfall and now the bulk of that has been met by the savings we found elsewhere in the budget... and the final item there is er setting up a consultants budget of ten thousand pounds, there's not a... consultants budget of any significance at, at the moment of the committee erm the County Planning Officer anticipates there's a need for consultants in the minerals local plan work which we're coming into this year and also to assist in environmental assessments er and special on that.... So these are the areas for the new monies being spent and as I said earlier as the economic development action plan is developed, it will be an opportunity to go forward to the th th t t to fund that initiative. The recommendations in paragraph ten er ask you to approve the capital programme and the revenue budget and the staffing for the committee and that, that's the increase of the one post I mean I referred to you earlier and if the committee approves this budget, will put forward to the Policy and Resources Committee on the thirty first of January which will consolidate the budgets for all the... er services and make final decisions on how that's to be and reset for the next. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you Jim. Now Constance. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] I've forgotten my new year's resolution which is to use christian names. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Well I must say I, I very much it. Very much. [speaker002:] Back, back to basics. [speaker001:] Back to basics. [LAUGHTER] Just one or two erm questions if I may erm reduction in use of staff advertising this is what we're looking at when we're talking about we've managed to do that unless we don't anticipate in the near future when we've already. Erm er changes in the central charges which always intrigues me I'd like to know and erm if I may go back to erm paragraph seven where we're saying... you know allocated thirty five thousand in the committee development over and above the effects of inflation an and this subject six thousand seven hundred recycled savings is available for some revenue development or mortgage charges and then if we look at eight and shortfall in planning applications we are going to use that six thousand seven hundred to write off a shortfall in the planning applications. Come off it I'm afraid, we can't do them both ways. [speaker002:] Right. We'll, we'll deal with the points of their. Neil. Yes I... I don't believe it will have major clarification erm on the administrative support, shown there as nineteen thousand nine hundred for an additional senior member of staff, if you look at appendix... sorry the on personnel shows the pay cost as one thousand two hundred and sixty one pounds. I just wonder, I mean is the nineteen thousand six hundred a full year cost, so which figure is right? I just misunderstood the whole... the whole figures.... That's point one erm... point two on the planning application fees I realize that a number of planning applications are down somewhere else erm it says that planning application fees are going to be increased by fifteen percent and there by thirteen percent. Is that [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] and the third thing is erm... I frankly don't understand... perhaps it's the same point as er that this below the line item, I mean it's taken below the line it must come from somewhere. I just don't understand, I don't understand th the way it works. Alan. [Alan:] Yeah thank you Chairman. Point four the sums included with the paying increase, the one point five... and negotiated seven... staff... and er on that or are we sort of governed by the financial cr criteria government... and also are there other departments or staff within the Town Hall will receive a higher increase. [speaker002:] I think that's your six questions. [Jim:] Right I think I've got six down here. Erm... taking on the here. On the question of staff turnover erm... on the saving advertising I think that reflects th the drop of staff turnover over the years and there is a budget which is an historical budget against that and clearly in the current situation less staff are leaving like that erm so that's one of these. The central charges as items is... that it refers to the charges from my own department, legal department, all the other central departments and an input to er... the Strategic Planning Committee operating, but it's not items that the Strategic Planning Committee has a control over, so there's a change, an estimated change of cost and sometimes that reflects the changes in methodology of agricultural cost and that seems to be happening at the moment. So you get the cost for that, you also get the budget for it, so it doesn't affect the... the resources in that sense.... The question on [speaker001:] The methodology if I may use the word I dislike it intensely erm questionable point. [Jim:] Th this is something that is developing members will be aware of the er proposals for er... competition for white collar services and... we sh we recharge these costs at the moment historic leases and... the central departments are at the moment developing er trading accounts for all these and as we develop that work we... we can correct our previous charges so there will be some sort of... changes in the way we charge and as I say that's coming through in these costs committees because it's... it's shifting money around between different committees so we shifted the budget at the same time. I mean that's the som that's er an issue that er has been dealt with I think it's policy resources can continue to be so in the coming years.... On the personnel table, I... I'm not quite sure about the standard point, there is one edition that the pay cost is one million hundred and sixty one thousand total cost [speaker001:] I'm sorry. Well can I... can I amend my question I mean is the is that a full year cost or is it let me try it again erm. [Jim:] It is a full year cost, there will be some on costs included in that. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Next one. [Jim:] Can I deal with the inflation ones first as being er point [speaker001:] [cough] [Jim:] I, there was a question on the... paragraph four in the amongst inflation or was it the... appendix. If I can explain inflation which included in the budget at this stage is inflation between November ninety two and November ninety three, so inflation from today if you like er or last November, through to the end of the year, that is provided for in the central contingency of the authority and as pay awards are awarded the money we drawn down from that into the planning committee so the amount there would one point five percent of pay and four point two percent from general commission, that's reflecting inflation that's already happening and is up last year's budget to... to the position today if you like so one point five percent of pay was the A P T C award for July ninety two, sorry ninety three and we're not anticipating here what the pay award will be for... the coming year, that is dealt with centrally.... Planning application fees. [speaker002:] Well John says he can answer that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] John and I had long discussions on planning applications, I shall be interested to hear [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Who's going to do it? [speaker001:] I'll try first yes if I may. Erm first, first of all erm Sue has, has just er reminded me that the, the government is, is considering the matter of planning application fees and we understand that there could be some proposals which erm modify the way in which er those fees are set and may give a greater erm autonomy to local authorities to set their own level of fees, in order to allow them to erm recoup erm more of or perhaps even all of the costs of operating the service, but that is something that's er definitely for the future er and er is, is not entirely. For the moment we have to charge the fee, we cannot waive it, but we have to charge it, but we have to charge it at the level that is set by the government and which is subject to review and er and er Mr has, has drawn our attention to has recently been increased. The... problem however is there's, there is no standard fee per application and er I think that that's not at all unreasonable. The fee there is according to the size and scale of development. U unfortunately it's not a perfect system because in relation to mineral applications, whilst as you would expect the largest fees are associated with the largest areas of er application for new mineral working and whilst it has to be admitted that those sorts of applications do take a lot of time in order to process them. The amount of time, officer time taken to process an application for a modification to an existing permission is still substantial and in some cases can be even more than that per a new proposal, but in those circumstances, and this is just by way of illustration because the... the actual fee regime is, is very variable, by way of illustration the fee chargeable for a... a, a modification is much less than for the application as a whole er f for, for the er er working as a whole. Now in recent years, what has happened is that because of the recession, mineral operators instead of looking for enormous new areas to work have been seeking to erm... improve er through their own review processes, the working within their existing sites and perhaps to go for some modest increases, so the number of applications has kept up, the amount of work that we are engaged in has er been at least as much as in the past and in some cases because of enforcement matters has been greater, but the fee income has been slipping. I have some illustrative figures in front of me erm [LAUGHTER] which I... I [] thought a question of this nature might, might crop up, erm th the figures aren't absolutely accurate, they were pulled off the file very quickly and er they may be out by er er er er a small amount, but they, they certainly illustrate the point. In er nineteen eighty nine ninety financial year for example there were forty one applications and the fee income from that was forty four thousand. Erm in the following year the number of applications went up by something over twenty percent up to fifty four, but the total fee income fell slightly. In the following year, ninety one ninety two, the number of applications held steady, but the total fee income declined slightly and in nineteen ninety two ninety three, whilst the number of applications fell slightly, the fee income fell considerably, so that in ninety two ninety three er there were more applications than in the,th the first of those, of those years that I quoted, but the fee income was twenty five percent down. The current year, the ninety three ninety four year I have figures only up to the end of December and in comparison to the previous full twelve months the number of applications is almost as high in the first three quarters of the year... but the fee income is about half what had been received for the full previous year and that is the problem that we're facing, that the number of applications, the amount of work is, is staying the same or is indeed increasing slightly, er but the fee income, because of the nature of the... the applications and the fee regime that is charged, is actually falling off quite rapidly. That may change and as we move out of the recession hopefully, er the er erm position will improve, but it does mean that for next year we are not in a position to er achieve the level of income that the, the current year's budget er required us to and which er on a normal knock-on basis as this element of the budget moves on from year to year, we wouldn't er have very much hope I would er put to you of actually meeting the level of income that would allow us to operate er a standstill budget in, in this area. [speaker002:] I'm still not sure whether [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. [LAUGHTER] Sorry. Really that's very interesting and I accept that erm I personally was do the figures include the anticipated increase which we already know? Yes. [LAUGHTER] A short answer very much shorter answer is yes. I, I, I think later on increases from January ninety four and January ninety five if I'm right, that doesn't include these increases, these are prices based on there will be financial year you get fifteen percent on whatever Yes but then you would, we would in fact budget increase as well in the same way as you'll... when there's an, if... if there was a pay award and you get an inflation allowance with the pay award the same way as in the statutory charges increases budget will increase as well, which... in that sense was [LAUGHTER] against [] [speaker002:] Now there's one more question outstanding the below the line manoeuvring of recycled savings. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Th this does come back to the [LAUGHTER] planning application [] [LAUGHTER] erm the normal disciplines that the County Council applied on income headings is that if income varies for reasons of er... conditions for example and this is in a way akin to that, then the committee normally has to find these erm... er the additional resources to cover tha that income erm I have had long discussions with John on this and th the point that he was putting there was er demonstrating that income had followed the amount of work perhaps has not fallen and the below the line item is a recognition in the part of that argument i in a sense for fifty-fifty between below the line reaching seven thousand erm and we've identified savings and other heads for example the staff advertising example where reduction in turnover, there's no effective service saving there, so these such things can go towards meeting this income conditions. So this some sort of deal perhaps there which we think is a reasonable an and fair balance in the end of the committee. on this, but isn't the below the outline item coming out in somebody else's pocket? central It comes out... yes yes. Thank you. [speaker002:] I'm hopeful that we can put this matter to bed though, cos a lot of big issues appear [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] the clock is ticking over. Can we... very good. that one uses today has a connotation of [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] One has to be so careful. Thank you. Good. May we move on therefore to this very important work programme which I think a very substantial matter [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman erm this is, this is er er obviously er a very important item, but I think that most of the information that it contains would already be familiar to members... erm and bearing in mind that I, I've only a moment or two ago gave a very long answer to Mr 's question when I, I could simply have said yes. Erm I [LAUGHTER] Well [LAUGHTER] I, I, I think that Jim and I cou could discuss the state of which [LAUGHTER] has been taken into account or not and we,w we would probably end up giving you a different answer but erm I mean w we... I don't want to go back to that I, I'll leave that, I'll leave that, I'll [speaker002:] These are important questions, should we charge for lifting cows out of ditches I've seen. You know. [speaker001:] Erm th there are one or two things that perhaps I can say that might help... in relation to er to this particular report erm and you'll see that er there are references in here to the workload of the erm minerals er erm team and the, the planning application for the coming year. I, I won't get drawn into that again... but in draft eleven point one there is reference to the fact that a copy of the report that went to the Policy Coordination sub-committee er was er a attached and in fact er it isn't attached. That missing report has been put round the table this morning and I hope that members of the committee would have found it and would be able to add it to that [cough] I apologise for that omission erm it's er erm one of those things that er er does I'm afraid from time to time happen. Erm... the er... most important item I think Chairman is the work programme for the future year which commences at erm about twelve and forms the second half of the report and I would be very happy to deal with any questions and it is very clearly in the light of things that we've already said, the first part of er that latter half of the report er which er emphasises the erm principal activities er to the department er that of strategic policy in paragraphs thirteen one, thirteen two and thirteen three are therefore perhaps the areas to which I would er draw you attention er most, but the report as whole is er I hope a reasonably succinct summary of what has gone on or what is proposed to be done and er... in order to avoid simply what is already in the report, I, I would leave it at that point and say I'm happy to deal with any questions. [speaker002:] And nobody seems to be itching to speak on this report. Not a... an eyebrow raised. Er... do we approve it then? [speaker001:] Approved. [speaker002:] Well that's splendid. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Thank you very much and thank you for a very well.... Right, the complaints procedures.... Chris are you happy? [Chris:] No, I'm [speaker002:] I've lost er... this is er a brief report of three complaints. [speaker001:] Item [speaker002:] Yes.... Do we... do we er leave that for the? Yes. [speaker001:] without wishing to [clears throat] sound er [speaker002:] Neil? I would agree with that, but I would just like to pick up three two of there have been one or two instances felt that they have necessarily... make aware perhaps that something's coming up in er difficult, but I just wanted to mention that er... I don't know what the procedures are actually, but I mean it d didn't seem to be one or two cases not saying it necessarily the department's fault, I'm er just making the point. You want to speak [speaker001:] Erm Chairman, I'm, I can certainly confirm that it is our policy to er notify with a copy of the report the erm er member in whose area an application erm is. Erm the only example that I can think of where that went wrong was where there was a delay in the post... but er we certainly do endeavour, it was er it was something which we've introduced in the last erm eighteen months and it's been welcomed by members and er it is certainly our intention to give everyone as much notice as possible. [speaker002:] It is very important to have the local member present to say his thing, because it does inform and influence outcomes. Er we had a very good example of that in application sub the other day with... where I'm sure... it was very helpful to have that input... and there is considerable respect paid for the patch view in planning in my experience and I think that's very healthy. I can only hope that when the system has changed, that the man in Guildford will listen to the patch. I'm serious about that, it grieves me greatly the possibility that he may not hear what the patch has to say.... Well [speaker001:] Mr is, is, is asking the questions which... which for a long time. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Just to add to what's been said erm... there, there have been some points raised er along the lines I've mentioned and as a result of that erm it is felt that erm notification to members who are not on the application sub-committee of applications which affect their ward area could be improved and that is er I hope to be the subject of a report to the next meeting of the Application Sub-Committee, so that er matter i is something which is, which is being picked up and will be considered by that sub-committee... but it does give me the opportunity to say that erm the definition of a complaint i is certainly not a precise one... and I certainly wouldn't want members of this committee to feel that I was being complacent er as a result of there only being three complaints that we received. Erm certainly there are other er comments and statements that have been through the year which er should and has caused us to look at our procedures and to erm make changes where that is appropriate and I would hope that er we would continue to do so. There is also er as, as well as recognizing that there are some things that perhaps we might have er concluded, but because of the er nature of the definition have fallen outside inclusion of this report. There is reference in paragraph two point two to the local ombudsman and I, I, I should perhaps add that during the year in question, there is one current matter er which er with the subject of the referral to the local ombudsman and that of course has not been included because of definition reasons in this report. That particular single matter was not pursued by the ombudsman an and that therefore means that erm it isn't something that er he felt was a question of maladministration... but I did want just to emphasise that this particular point, because in the more er... i in the recent report to the Policy Resources Committee on ombudsman complaints, the number, and I can't recall exactly what the number was, but the number included in that report relating to planning matters was certainly higher than one, I think there were about half a dozen and what I wanted to take the opportunity of explaining was the, the majority of those all but the one that I've now referred to, er where in fact relating to district matter planning applications and not to the County Council. So if there's any er er erm thought that the er ombudsman complaints were running at a high level as far as this committee's interest were concerned, I can confirm that that isn't in fact the case. [speaker002:] Yes. Thank you. [speaker001:] Can I just congratulate er the County Planning Officer on operating in an oasis o of, of if I can put it that way. Erm good one [clears throat] thank you report to the Highways Committee [LAUGHTER] complaints [] I think he's er perhaps remarkably lucky in operating this way and er i it's er a great credit to the department in terms of [speaker002:] The is interesting because of course planning is an eggshells area where you have to tiptoe delicately through the tulips. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well, you've heard what the members say and er let us hope that you continue in this... very sensitive area and handle these er matters with er care and sensitivity. Can we move on can we move on to er general item A. I thought that, and I'm not an expert in but I thought this was a penetrating critique and all goes well for how the department is handling in a very difficult starting situation, a most important matter... but there is... Mr spoke to me about this paper and er I think we will have to hear what Mr had to say, I don't know who's going to report that.... Yes? [speaker001:] Mr has not spoken to me about this [speaker002:] I it's oh it's a nice noise, I beg your pardon. Not this one. Sorry, next one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I'm... I'm rather relieved at that because otherwise I would [] [speaker002:] Sorry I got the wrong item, I, my note is not very good. [speaker001:] Sorry Chairman. [speaker002:] Erm, first of all Alan. Yes. [Alan:] Yeah, thank you Chairman just new development on the question of transport that's been considered that people might be using the train more travelling to Europe than they had done previously I dunno if that has been considered Channel Tunnel, but perhaps it's something that erm.... [speaker001:] Er thank you Mr Chairman. I, I erm... would like to reiterate what you said about the quality of this report which I think Patrick had a finger in, I suspect. [speaker002:] No, no, no, no no [speaker001:] You're not [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well in that case I'm... er it's still a compliment still intended whoever wrote it. [speaker002:] Well it's John, I did ask who was behind [speaker001:] I do beg your pardon [speaker002:] it and it's his team. [speaker001:] Right erm... I would just like to mention that it doesn't say here that the A P C have set up er a separate er lobby group erm on which I have the honour to be a member with Patrick er to try and influence the MPs because one of the things which er is coming out and it's... it's actually shown in paragraph three point three A at the bottom, the questioning whether the demand should be necessarily met... or whether in fact, and this links to the government's present erm reluctance to direct airlines to work from... current unused capacity for example at, at erm at Luton... and I think that there may well be some pressure put that er we should try and change that. Thi this is something which has come out in several places I don't know whether the members noted it, erm... the er it also touches on, on, on what my colleague said earlier and the item in paragraph V er the assumption of the demand remain much as it is, heavily towards the South East particularly Gatwick. We, we, I think er in the discussions we've had there is a, there is a movement towards questioning some of the premises. That's really what I was saying. [speaker002:] Good. Neil. get on, but it's a very important matter this. Er I what's been said about the report and I think it identifies the main issues. I would just like to emphasise particularly the erm... I'm very pleased consultants working on it, because I think this is the Achilles heel in the... in the Gatwick case. I think that is of very considerable importance. The other thing which is actually mentioned that we one of the worst aspects was done and I personally tried to look at what the impact on road building around elsewhere and it is absolutely appalling and er I think that is something which is to be, I'm sure it will be, will be called out. I think it is an area where and I think it needs to be will be doing that.... And the final thing on three two er the question of how far I know this has not been asked today... I don't people with er three or four page... briefing get the summary I do think that the sort of and there's a great deal of voluntary activity going on and I think if we can support that, that would, be that would be great. So I have one final point erm I won't go into that, but I just hope that our membership to the Airport Policy Consortium Gatwick. The danger when you are in a group which is representing a number of airports [too far away to be able to hear talker] Can we just hear what Harold wanted, to do you wish to speak? [Harold:] No [speaker002:] Oh. you wanted to. [speaker001:] Well I do want to come back in fact an and reassure er you that er in fact er we are very concerned about that and we spend a great deal of time talking about the A P C's erm statement policy of intent because it was intended to be modified in the way which we thought would and we spent quite a lot of time erm discussing and am re-amending the importance. [speaker002:] David? [Harold:] erm and bearing in mind Mr 's comments about er could he have thought we translated into rather more layman's language and say well the capacity of the roads do actually deliver and extract people from Gatwick mathematical modelling is pretty suspect stuff but erm but at least it would er if that is true if it is not capable of actually er sensibly erm er allowing arrivals and departures er onto our road network without causing I think all they're doing is pushing the problem onto us er and we ought to [speaker001:] major new road building [Harold:] Well quite [speaker001:] put the roads on the map [Harold:] Well okay, but you've gotta say that the present network is not capable of either delivering or extracting er [speaker002:] Ken? [Chris:] Erm these erm... transport to the South East transport surely the... the following item on increase... which is forecast, this will encourage erm... to use and increase the traffic in Gatwick erm airports that's er [speaker002:] Good point. [Chris:] Surely the er two are linked. [speaker002:] Good point.... Right. [speaker001:] Chairman. [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker001:] Er it was just to enquire i i if we're getting this input from [speaker002:] Ah [speaker001:] the members er [speaker002:] yes, I th the, the answer about the Redhill monster is that erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Redhill didn't submit to a it's er it's beyond, it's outside of the they, they, they made er er a conscious decision that they would deal with it in their own peculiar way. So it's nothing to do with by their own choice so I understand. [speaker001:] It should be something this committee erm tends to [speaker002:] Oh yes and er the... I pass all the correspondence I have to the County Planning Officer who deals with it with the most... enormous efficiency and I hope that he is maintaining liaison with what I call the Rucatse Group which consists of, Neil and Tony and... [sigh] somebody from Crawley who is... I think it's [speaker001:] Tony [speaker002:] Tony, but there is an accepted group of members who are taking a very close and efficient interest in what is happening at this er... [speaker001:] Can I pass all my correspondence on to members of [speaker002:] I would be grateful if you would, yes. Keep them er well informed. This is... I think there is an administrative question how we handle this and it seems to be running very well. [speaker001:] Might the... Mr Chairman I was just wondering if it's worth just mentioning that the, since the Redhill Airport proposal which does include a privately funded motorway link erm point erm has gone to and has been called in to the determination I believe by the Minister, but er we are sort of pending... er holding our horses until that er er is nearer the time is that not perhaps We, we are er Chairman involved in... Redhill proposals in so far as we have submitted erm... a series of er... points to the local authorities concerned and tomorrow er as it happens is the date for the pre-enquiry meeting, the enquiry is due to be held er in I think late spring May er time, I'm not sure of the exact date [speaker002:] Twen twenty third of March [speaker001:] Twenty third of March? As soon as that, beg your pardon. Erm but the pre-enquiry meeting is taking place tomorrow and we are represented at that meeting John is going along. At the present time it isn't the intention that your officers should present er evidence in person at that enquiry, er our er representations haven't er put in, in writing, but that is pending what happens at tomorrow's meeting an and that position might change. Erm I, I er... much of the compliment that you paid t to me and the department in terms of the efficiency that we've, which we're dealing with the correspondence, I, I am conscious of the fact that in something of this nature those er members that you mentioned, some of them are, are here this morning erm are, are not er s receiving er a regular erm series of er erm letters or, or pieces of information from the department and it's very much an ad hoc situation erm and at the moment as far as is concerned, we are waiting for the... the completion of some of the reporting before we erm er submerge them with er a, a, a, a lot of paper, but if there are any particular issues that erm any of those members or indeed any other members erm particularly wants to pursue, er th th the position is as it is on, on any matter, please do get in touch. We will try to keep our er flow of paper outwards, but if we er are failing or if there are any questions as to well why haven't we heard anything from w for a while, please do get in touch.... Er I think there was only one question that was raised during the er course of the discussion Chairman which erm Mike assured and Mr raised the point about the Channel Tunnel, the effect that that might have of er erm passenger Gatwick. Erm that in fact er whether it's been on board accurately by the report er or not is, is a matter for er question, but it was something that they bore in mind when they where reaching their conclusion, so they believe that they have taken it into account. [speaker002:] So are members happy that this is in safe hands and er proceeding satisfactorily? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Now we come on to an immediate question, night flights which er there is concern about. I don't know whether Mr 's concern to be satisfactorily dealt with by officers. [speaker001:] I, I, I think so Chairman, I, I, I think Mr Buck's basic point er relates to the position of the Gatwick Airport Consultative Committee er which this committee appoints two members to Mr and erm Mr... Erm Mr

[speaker001:] We really are waiting for some key data on how and so on which we shan't know until March so I think that is going to condition our er... next consideration... but... your comment on that. [speaker002:] Very very very briefly Chairman, erm first of all you can see in paragraph two point three and you see the matter that's being erm... the subject of discussion previously erm... there wasn't to be an issues report as such, but er Stragg itself the advisory group did feel that it would be useful that er... er a leaflet be prepared and distributed erm you I don't think Chairman would have seen it, but hot off the presses is being erm with us this morning er an an and only delivered this morning are some copies of th the leaflet that we have now erm prepared er you will have seen that in draft form Chairman and members of Strang will have seen that draft form so er both Stragg members and other members of the Committee if they would like to take a copy away with them, that there are a number here, but they will be er given wide distribution later on. These copies are staple check [LAUGHTER] and you are the one which you've gone back for apply [] erm I, I'll with that one. [speaker001:] And there's some homework in it. [speaker002:] There is some, there is some homework. Erm prin principally for, for those outside the County Council that is the erm all responses would be very welcome. There er... erm other er... matter that er erm I er wanted to mention erm if only to get the word sustainability on to the tape that is being recorded on the [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] seems that one of th the key areas that we are looking at and er will incorporate in the structure plan is sustainability. That's been er er a matter which has been erm discussed er at some length by Stragg as has the topic of er house building and the... the problems of er capacity for er new house instruction and other development within the, the Council... but a number of erm matters er not least of which has been er the departure of two key members of staff during the period er there has er I'm afraid been a degree of slippage and the original programme that we have put to you and which you agreed which we said at the time was ambitious er is already er showing signs of stress and it looks now I'm afraid that it will not be er in the early part of the summer that the structure plan in draft form will be available and ready to be approved for consultation purposes, but towards the end of the summer and er er into the early autumn. Er that is something which is er a matter of great regret, but because of circumstances er unfortunately is the case and something that we must er address. We will do what we can to er speed things and to catch up. [speaker001:] Yes, Neil? [Neil:] One very quick point, sorry erm... I don't want to sound as if I feel I can but er I welcome your comment at the beginning the condition be... be left out on what's going on because I thought this was actually the key function of this committee and I mean I see these are being decision has been taken. Erm I see so I'm not really... [LAUGHTER] [] will make sure that erm... that we are kept in touch so that we are not so far down the track but they can't be reversed committee as a whole [speaker001:] Absolutely. Absolutely I was aware that Graham was very anxious to be involved in this process, er for example he wrote me a note and I think other members and it's because of those, of those notes that I was anxious that we should inform them of what we were up to and if you want to share any of the papers or agendas please ask. Er really do value inputs [speaker002:] Chairman I, yes I, I mean that I [speaker001:] or attend [speaker002:] I understand an and appreciate wh what you're saying and most grateful to you for that, I think wha what you're, Neil is saying is is that with we must make sure the time, that this main strategic planning he has to look at, this very important issue, allows sufficient time for mature consideration [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] debate and, and possibly change. I i it may not be so, but it may be so [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] and, and I'm sure that you're aware of that... feeling amongst all members that you would reflect this in the amount of time available [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] for that debate and discussion. [speaker001:] Very important.... It's particularly important because I, I think that these er strategic plans aren't being terribly well received in the D O E and they will only succeed if there is er solid agreement to present.... I think Berkshire had a very rough ride... and others too... and they're saying exactly the sorts of things that are being said in this county... and it may be the last strategic plan on the county too, so it's a very important document.... Right so we note this report. Thank you. Item eleven one er I have to say that if you want to discuss item eleven two, the Mid Sussex District Local Plan, I will have to er... I shall have to er... withdraw and ask er Cliff to chair the meeting. If er if you don't mind. Do, do members want to discuss the Mid Sussex Plan? [speaker002:] Erm i it's... a very small point it's a question more than anything else erm Chairman, rather than a debate, but th there are one or two obviously important issues there, particularly the highway side and I [speaker001:] Well I'm happy to withdraw. [speaker002:] But, but should we deal with the first [speaker001:] No problem [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Why don't you take this item. [speaker002:] Right okay, well it I don't know [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'll go into [speaker002:] all to do with that one first [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, right, right. But I mustn't blot my copy book. [clears throat] Right. [speaker002:] Shall I, shall I start on eleven? [speaker001:] Please [speaker002:] Chairman, if, if I may and it is just basically to look at the recommendation and wonder you know perhaps if we've got it the right way round er that's all, where we're saying er there are certain things still outstanding wh which we would need to re-relate before er issuing er general conformity notices I understand... b but we're almost taking that they're going to do that without any doubt, now I don't know maybe there are things not said in this report which are well understood, but and members of are quite happy to accept erm er s some more... more changes to, to the local plan so that it does conform with... with the structure plan, but I just wondered whether round the wrong way. Whether we should be saying and saying District Council be requested to amend the local plan as suggested in paragraph two four two nine five and then nu number two would be there adding a few words to... to the original number one. On confirmation of District Council's agreement a statement of general conformity and in business you don't sort of give your position away, erm [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I, I'm pleased to tell you that the Planning Officer agrees with you. [speaker002:] Oh, oh I [speaker001:] I, I certainly certainly from the chair I would agree. [speaker002:] Chairman, may... [LAUGHTER] I'm [] sorry to, to, to question that erm [speaker001:] I'm sorry [Neil:] Th there, there is a, there is a problem erm in that the invitation from Aida in this case to er issue a statement in general conformity erm confers on, on this committee the opportunity only to withhold that statement if there are elements of plan which significantly fall outside for one reason or other the, the terms of the structure plan and the points that have been mentioned in the er in paragraphs two point four to two point nine in, in... er... your officer's views er are not such that the er plan is er unable to be afforded that statement of general conformity. The points in two point four to two point nine are nevertheless important and we would er... I would strongly recommend that you endorse the erm making of those points to Aida If they then don't take those points on board, you would have the opportunity when the plan is, is finally put on deposit of making a formal objection to the plan on the basis that we disagree with that particular wording, but I have here th th th the strong expectation that Aida will take on board those small points anyway and it is just a matter therefore o of making minor changes, but unfortunately the conformity issue is, is a, is a rather different one whether we are er in er er er as an authority in agreement with what Aida is saying in their plan. [speaker001:] Apologize for misleading. [speaker002:] Chairman and I, I still stick to wh what I said that I think that we ought to... to reverse and, and p put two to number one... erm er and with the addition of those words, because... I, I, I take all the planning and what the officer is saying, but I mean don't you think it makes more sense from our point of view than we realize. [Neil:] Ch Chairman I, I, I, I would agree with Mr that we might er successfully change the order, but we can't er and shouldn't make it a condition of issuing that statement of conformity that Aida have done those things. They may not do them and we could still issue, we would still have to issue the statements of general conformity. There would then be other means however for us to pursue our... our concerns that haven't... we know er are moving into a future speculative situation, but if they're not taken up we have other means of pursuing those, but they wouldn't affect the... the conformity issue. [speaker001:] It seems as if it's a legal question I hear from [speaker002:] Well yes, yes in terms it sounds mos most confusing compared with a straightforward business world but [LAUGHTER] if, if, if... the campaign are saying that it's got to be this way for legal reasons they're not prepared to accept it. [speaker001:] That's our advice I'm sorry. [speaker002:] Ch Chairman, I, I, I certainly would er report to John th that is the correct interpretation. [speaker001:] Perhaps we could minute Mr 's point, just to make him happy. [speaker002:] Well I, I mean he's being technical here as well Chairman. [LAUGHTER] I shall be getting a copy of this tape. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Chairman? [speaker001:] Mr. Yes, sorry. [Harold:] Sorry, just er to clarify was happy about er reversing the orders of these, provided we did not amend what is currently present er item one. [speaker001:] Yes he's saying a com condition of er general conformity that the general conformity is apparently er met by this er what's being done and I think general conformity, I, I don't know I'm guessing, relates to the housing commitment of a broad strategic equivalent, is that the point? [Neil:] Yes Chairman i it relates to the... the body of the policies in the structure plan and if Aida's plan generally conforms then we must er issue a statement of general conformity er however if there is a, a problem that we've had for example about the wording of the reference to the erm East Worthing access road, then although that it's quite proper for this committee to be concerned about that wording and ultimately possibly even to object to the plan on the basis of the wording, it doesn't affect the extent to which the plan conforms or doesn't conform with the structure plan overall. [speaker001:] Does that help? [speaker002:] Y y yes I mean to clear this whole matter up... Chairman w wo would it be fair if, if I moved perhaps tha that erm... erm little one should become little two and little two should probably become little one and [LAUGHTER] leave it at that? I mean would that satisfy... [Neil:] That, that... that would be perfectly acceptable. All logical orders. [speaker002:] Er Chairman I'm... perhaps I could also suggest that we change the word suggested erm... because that... i i it, perhaps you are looking for something slightly stronger erm er so it could just say in accordance with paragraphs two four to two nine or the points made in paragraph two point [speaker001:] Mm. Right. I am now going into and you're going to take the chair for this. [speaker002:] [cough] Well I hope it won't be a... [LAUGHTER] is that alright []? No, it's alright. Right turning to item eleven two Mid Sussex District Local County.... That all agreed? [LAUGHTER] I mean... yes... er as I said earlier on it's just a question for... for... just a bit more obviously in the readings report th there is... there is concern naturally with the by-passes in paragraph two five [sigh] I mean I haven't had a chance to sort of looking up yet, and I'd by grateful for County Executive's advice on that and I thought we as a County Council had agreed a line... erm for a by-pass through the West Sussex... portion at least.... Therefore i if we, if he done that then that paragraph would seem to be slightly and the second point was really... to ask if there was any further update on [whispering going on in background for thirty seconds] the progress in terms of negotiations in Surrey and East Sussex er in terms of this erm particular by-pass and I know that Mr in particular has been concerned with negotiations and Mrs also erm Mrs is not here therefore as Mr could advise me for us o of where we're at really, [whispering going on in background for thirty seconds] so that we fully understand because obviously the... the line of the by-pass is very important so far as any further development is... is concerned. So er in regard to er... th the quote there has been no agreement on the line, that refers to the fact that agreement has to be m... erm come about with the actual erm East Sussex County Council and Surrey County Council and that er although a joint meeting of Planning and Highways what, some two years ago, took a view as to the line, that hasn't actually meant that there is agreement at this stage where the line can be implemented and I would have thought that's what that refers to. I, I, I can answer that Well I, I don't know whether I should make a or If I may erm... we, we, we, we did attend er er er a briefing and myself and James, unfortunately Margaret was unable to be present on that day, although I think she's had a separate briefing... or there is a separate briefing being proposed. There is a partial line on the map which I think this Council agreed before my time... but that is not a line which could be implemented because it starts from nowhere and goes to nowhere... and we are still I believe in, in, in limbo so far as the... exact route which might be proposed either the northern or the southern end. I didn't want to... tread on your toes Mr, but I, I gather that, that is the situation I think. [speaker005:] That that's just I would have said Chairman anyway I would have probably have taken [speaker002:] I, I,... I, if I may go on an and er... make some other comments on it i is that appropriate or should I... wait for that... are we still talking about the by-pass? Erm... I mean I was just finding myself expressing the views that er... given the dramatic change in the composition... of the County Council since the election, I would have thought something as major as the East Grinstead by-pass would need to be considered by the new council anyway... and er I think it would be... perhaps er assuming too much er to believe that the present council would follow the line of the previous council that's only er a personal expression. If I may come back Mr Chairman an and er express a view on behalf of Darcy. She's very concerned and the present line partial though it be, represents a... a blight situation on that, on the, on potential er occupants of that line... and certainly erm... I find myself more in... in er agreement with Darcy's views than I do with the other two councillors of East Grinstead, that's not er not secret No, no no by any manner of means, because they represent the of the town. I find myself rather like the old shell man having to look both ways at once, because part of my division is... is town and part of it is country and they have very different views about the by-pass... erm Yes, could I just... you know Sure I mean because obviously this is inflation particularly with the new members who are not involved in... in all the [LAUGHTER] hurly-burly [] those two, two three years ago, but er in fact as I recall it I think it was a Liberal Democrat... proposal that we should agree this particular line. [LAUGHTER] It was an East Grinstead er Mrs Er indeed. [LAUGHTER] And... and, and I mean all I'd say is I know it's an issue geared to hearts too and this will be explained, so I just before [LAUGHTER] And it's not... not unobserved. I think you will recall Mr my... my views on the East Grinstead by-pass... were not the same as those [LAUGHTER] I, I, I'm bitterly disappointed recollection. Erm [Neil:] I wonder... wonder Chairman whether i i in order to, to focus on... on the erm... issue that arises as a result of this an and whilst Mr is absolutely right to, to, to question the status of the by-pass and Mr [LAUGHTER] has... has given me the []... the answer. What it actually means erm is that er there is unlikely to be a by-pass for some time, but in effect that would be likely to be the case anyway, one because of the cost of the by-pass overall and secondly because of the erm position with regard to other aspects of the roads programme and the level of T S G that we are currently receiving er even if there was an agreed line as of today erm bearing in mind the th the other things that have happened in the roads programme, it still would be unlikely that the by-pass would be er programmed in such a way that it would allow housing or other development to take place in East Grinstead within either the structure plan period or the local plan period and hence the points that then er that the report moves on to erm come into play. [speaker002:] Could I then come to the body of the report, rather than the East Grinstead by-pass, which I, I, I... I agree is, is pertinent erm I was, I read this... a couple of times because I was a bit confused about the rather if I may say so convoluted argument that was in it erm I think I understand the argument that the erm is that the Mid Sussex District Council have asked for advice and the recommendation is that advice.... er on the other hand er... the arguments inside the er document seem to suggest that a... a certificate of, of conformo conformalities conformity erm could be issued er within the terms of the, the numbers specified because on the case of the housing the numbers are rather small and in the case of the er business floor space there, they're probably even less significant... erm and I wondered why that wasn't put in the recommendation. I know the recommendation actually erm does answer the request for advice that was outlined in er two point one and maybe that's why the recommendation is couched as it is. [Cliff:] We could of, we, could we not have had a statement that er er er erm... a certificate of conformity could be issued... or will be issued? [Harold:] Chairman it's er an excellent question an an and I, I, I'm hesitating in giving er an... an off the cuff answer, but the... first of all we weren't actually asked to issue a statement of conformity at this stage [Cliff:] I take that point [Harold:] and it would be wrong for us to consider it in that form. The real er difficulty is that we at this stage don't actually know what's going to be in the local plan and we believe and this is what erm Mid Sussex District Council are suggesting, is that it will be an amalgamation of the current separate local plans which cover their area, but there may well be some changes erm and until we see the thing as a whole we don't know what it will say, moreover erm there may be elements outside the East Grinstead housing and business allocation which erm from another point of view might lead to a withholding of the statement of conformity. So in fact a recommendation was carefully constructed to allow y your committee the opportunity of, of questioning other elements of the plan at the time at which that is put to us. [Cliff:] I, I, I accept that completely. Thank you. Er Mr? Yeah, hmm? [speaker007:] Thank you Chairman. Just to say that erm we're very keen to see that the Mid Sussex Council has come to the county and asked for guidance and I'm very pleased also with the response that is er proposed back to them. There's tremendous concern within the area erm at the targets that have been set for house building and in particular for er industrial space erm I think office space is now coming back into more of an equilibrium situation, but erm... I'm very pleased to see that er with these proposals as they stand, we would have no difficulties in approving their, the plan. [Cliff:] Thank you. Mr? [Neil:] I'm not commenting... still not commenting on local issues, but I mean... I quite see that acceptable to Mid Sussex and I'm not... doubting the recommendation but erm... we've actually sixty three thousand right sixty three thousand square metres and the other... councils took the attitude that we would be nowhere near achieving structure plan and... I find myself absolutely clearly what happened in other comebacks they were only going to produce three, two thirds or three quarters of your [speaker002:] It is an important Chairman and a very good question and erm, but there isn't a... straightforward answer that would apply to every situation. Th the reality is that elsewhere in West Sussex erm the business allocations are erm reasonably generous or indeed slightly over generous and er therefore er overall the concern i is very much reduced erm but it might also be just worth mentioning that erm... although... er there is clearly an opportunity for this committee, this planning authority, the strategic planning authority to, to question figures of this nature and to challenge local plans if they are significantly adrift erm that has to be done in the context of the... the local plan enquiry by er in the form of an objection almost and past experience has been that the inspectors and the Secretary of State have allowed a certain amount of leeway depending on the erm proportional er deviation from erm th the figures that were in the structure plan and depending on what is happening elsewhere and on the state of the economy and whilst... it would be... something which erm... it was possible to prepare a case for erm i it is o on, on the balance of erm er the... various things that are, that are taking place in West Sussex that the recommendation i is, is put to you that and it seems to be the reasonable course of action, particularly bearing in mind the downturn in, in er erm... the er business activity and the er amount of developments taking place. It seems to be the reasonable approach to adopt, although it will vary from time to time and from place to place and it is a question of... of balancing a number of factors. [Cliff:] Well Mrs wants to come in and then [speaker008:] Chairman, er if I might I was going to refer again to the care carefully worded recommendation which doesn't actually mention the level of erm it simply mentions erm er a modest extent of under provision because clearly it says elsewhere in the report at two ten that it's not yet known whether there will be opportunities elsewhere, so that's a particular shortfall in provision to be made up. [speaker002:] I would feel very happy that there was an under, under provision if I, if I refer to the agenda item twelve, where it says if I read it right that there is twenty three point six percent industrial floor space unoccupied at present and I would have thought it was crazy to start er erm coming up and building even more cos it will just put that figure up will it not? This is a wrong Yeah but that's a quarter of that, that's a quarter unoccupied. I mean I do actually that we talk a lot about sustainability floor space. Anyway, I don't want to make a big issue about this, I just want to ask. [Cliff:] Can we approve recommendation then? [speaker002:] We do. [Cliff:] Thank you. We'll go and retrieve the Chairman. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh are you gonna do it? ... [long pause as people are changing seats and whispering in background] [speaker001:] D do we now move on to item twelve the General Report? I've received notice that Neil wishes to er raise... er er a matter which concerns two parts of this report. Neil? [Neil:] Really I think erm there are just two four and two six which I'm just interested in and the whole question I find very difficult to erm... I mean it's really just a question as the these are mentioned as items left hanging in the air...., rustling of papers in background and whispering] [speaker001:] I think it's fair to say that know more about it than I do, but there has been a High Court case recently which has, seems to have er torpedoed the er prospect of er... including affordable housing in new housing deals, so I'm informed. [speaker008:] You know more about it than I do Chairman. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well I, I took the liberty of... the Lord Lieutenant's appointed me to something called the Sussex Rural Options Land Bank and I brought you a copy of the leaflet, having notice of your question and I did ask... the officer who deals with this in the Sussex Rural Community Council if he could give me the latest score on housing I thought that the news was bad from what he had said, but having said that, I mean every effort is being made to deal with the issues you raise in this council which is now... chaired by Peter.... Anyway erm I think we totally support the thrust of what you're asking about and I was asked to make a special appeal to County Council to see whether they could assist with this recently established Rural Options Land Bank, the purpose of which is rather extraordinary, but I mean it is defined landowners who have a philanthropic bent to provide the land to do something about the very problem you've raised. So far there are twenty sites being investigated. [speaker002:] I mean one of the problems... and also perhaps losing benefit of housing. I mean I personally think that. So it seems to be a sort of... a bit of an insoluble problem, but it... er I, I just. [speaker001:] I've just read the enquiry and the public dealing with these issues and the D O E has rejected rentable housing as a solution to affordable housing. I think I'm right in saying that. [speaker008:] I, I, I think Chairman that on the, the case to which you refer as, as I recollect it was very much on the specific wording of the er restriction which erm was found to fail, because it applied to a number of houses and not to a specific property and er clearly care will have to be given by the districts that happens in imposing conditions to make sure that it will erm appertain to each individual property within a development so that the occupancy condition can be... can be informed. [speaker001:] I think we can't do justice to the point you've raised in the time at our disposal, but it is a very important issue. I have one suggestion,wh whether you would like to pursue the matter further, but I did ask Frederick whether he could brief you more fully. He is over in Lewes unfortunately, but he did offer so to do, er which I think would... you know put you in a more informed position to pursue the matter with this committee. I shall certainly do what I can to advance the matter, but I hesitate to say what about the paper, because I don't think it is an easy thing to cover in a paper. Perhaps we have to get it into the erm... strategy agenda again I mean we... we have had a go at it, but probably inadequately. [speaker002:] Chairman can I... er suggest to these results of course over a period... and I'd like to see... [speaker001:] I'm pessimistic myself. [speaker002:] I, I think Chairman that as, as we come out of the recession an and... th that the overall erm level er quantity of development taking place increases, then we are almost bound to see perhaps more affordable housing erm in absolute terms, although I don't see any opportunity of there being a... a major hiccup in proportional terms, so I, I, like you, I think I remain er pessimistic er regarding the, the, the overview, although we might see er a turning up of the er of the graph having been bumping along the bottom for a little time a little while. Yes, thank you Chairman. Obviously it is a very involved complex subject, but the fact is the situation is changing day by day. Er most of the houses that are provided rent are provided by local authorities, but there again you've got a very serious change in situation... when the government are looking to privatize council houses. I mean we can't go into the private market and expect them or asking them to provide houses erm affordable houses as I say the question is what's an affordable house, who's got the money to buy the house I would presume, but obviously we know the situation is it's the lower rent of market, the lower income groups and the unemployed that are suffering very much reasonable accommodation at a rent or at a price they can afford... and I reckon this is what... hopefully the government was after to say whether we'll put in our policy and hope that we can get things. Unfortunately they say one thing, but they do exactly the opposite and whereas local authorities are in a position to... in the main to provide rental accommodation, the government are stopping them. So I think you know it is a subject that we should, probably should go on to, to discuss it in more detail, but I'm really concerned because I think the policies government authorities were even accepting. I'm not gonna ask for the problems of the... homeless people that we've got in this country. [speaker001:] I have to say there was one piece information I picked up yesterday asking and we're talking about the rural areas I think in this discussion, the rural viability, rather then er... urban. I was told that the money that was threatened for housing associations which was an important element in structure, the government has in fact included it in the forthcoming budget, so that is encouraging, that aspect of it. [speaker002:] I think Chairman housing association, because the demand was greater. [speaker001:] Well the only encouraging initiative that I can speak of for West Sussex is the establishment of the Rural Options Land Bank and er I've undertaken to try and get some county commitment to this and that means some land. I can't see it happening, I mean I've already tried out one idea which hasn't run very fast... but if we were solidly behind that, that would be very important for this initiative, we as a county. So I understand it will encourage others and there are some very wealthy landowners for whom this may not... be a great strain on their resources. [speaker002:] Erm sorry, thank you Chairman. Basically erm I agree with what you say but that the County Council itself of course is... a landowner of erm some quite attractive erm areas of land that could be used for below cost housing, but the problem in the past has been that they always had to sell erm at the... market price. [speaker001:] Precisely. [speaker002:] Whereas could be lifted if the County Council itself would become erm a benevolent donor, I'm sure that problems of low cost housing throughout the county. [speaker001:] I'm not asking that it transfer its estate, I'm asking that it should make a contribution... because it will then show that we're committed to this very important initiative. [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] If you want to get a grasp of what is happening in West Sussex, there is a useful one-page summary in the Housing... and Environment the Housing Report which came to us last, at the last meeting. It er has about a list of about thirty erm... affordable housing.... And I mentioned at the last meeting... I think... what has actually been said in the erm meeting... I could repeat that, but I mean it confirms exactly what you're saying. Available evidence confirms... sorry first of all the increase in the provision of affordable dwellings identified by this monitoring survey er is not being maintained, so there is a national problem South East regional problem field and in our own er monitoring report... on... housing development and population change we say four point seven two... available evidence confirms the existence of a social housing problem in West Sussex and surveys studies suggest it is significant and that table on page forty items, gives you the precise er application position... erm... it is I think erm... just.... I think that deals with the General Report and now we move into part [speaker002:] No, no, no, no thirteen, thirteen approve that one Chairman. [speaker001:] Thank you. Er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] time yes. [speaker002:] Yeah, sorry Chairman I must [speaker001:] We approved that haven't we? [speaker008:] No, no. [speaker002:] Fourteen two, erm the great problem is it's easier to get if an afternoon meeting can finish at a reasonable time, then I can probably but erm I think if you, if you're looking at the clock when home in the evening for a number of reasons it might be then I would this and unless we can sort of put a restricted time on the agenda which is impossible, I can imagine coming down here at two o'clock for the meeting. You see when committees are meeting at two o'clock usually have a much shorter agenda than this committee discussion but to enable to this committee and to do its job properly, I would think we'd be looking where possible to be able to discuss items properly and to get... start at a reasonable time like we do. [speaker001:] Mr? [speaker009:] it seems to me that often, especially with this committee er start at half ten we get to about half twelve and everyone starts shuffling and think of their lunch and often... not so much recently, but in, in, in, over the last five years there have been issues I think... it almost left you on because it was so close to lunch, er and people didn't then want to have to break for an hour, hour and a half and then come back, whereas if you start at two fifteen erm [sigh] I think it's easier to go on till half four, five seems to be to go to this psychological one o'clock barrier, seems to er upset people greatly agitation and er their argument is th th that er that in the afternoon [speaker001:] Do other members have a view on this? [speaker002:] Could I agree with that can I also suggest that if that happens because erm also at some of these seminars are impossible with meetings because we can, we can try and concentrate on... on days where, where ready would actually help the attendance because er On the applications that's quite interesting because the reason the applications are moved to separate days was because we can work... we're having to lunch and then make again [speaker001:] We're, we're, we're using the application for doing the Stragg meeting now, we're having amend on... normally... I think. Well there doesn't seem to be [speaker002:] Mr Chairman I, I would support the proposal that it's moved to the afternoon [speaker001:] Afternoon [speaker002:] on the basis of laziness. I hear, I, I, I think there is a tendency with the County Council but as I discovered as Chairman of Highways [clears throat] that members [clears throat] want to take a greater interest and to have a greater say on the items on the agenda now planning is... is not a controversial as, as say highway items, but nevertheless I think there will be times and there will be agendas which will require a great deal of discussion on the individual items... and I'm also a great believer [clears throat] bearing in mind comments if it ain't broke, don't bend it. Now it seems to me I accept difficulties f for, for some people, but on the whole it's working quite well and to shuffle it all round again I think would irritate a large number of members and we're irritated by the changes that you made earlier on... and I wouldn't wish to bring any down on your... your head for the [LAUGHTER] so I'm in favour of leaving things as they are Chairman, er I think you, you, you've done enough, you've caused enough trouble already! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I it's, it's very hard when you, when you've, when you're grinding an axe to get the true mood of the meeting. Could I just have a small poll, those who would like to er have S Q as they call it, status quo?... That's five [speaker002:] Six. [speaker001:] Six... and moving it to the afternoon... yes, it's er a nice question. I think we shall just on the margin have to leave it as it is. Thank you very much for that. Now part two. Can we approve that, is there any problem at all? I must just quickly stress on looking at it very closely last night that only one was in West Sussex. [speaker008:] Erm Chairman if [speaker001:] There's nothing we can do about that. [speaker008:] Sorry Chairman. I if I might say erm after further reviews the County Treasurer has advised that erm he does not need to impose a limit erm i it's the last sentence in paragraph four. [speaker001:] Right, thank you.... That one is East Sussex for your information.... So we accept that Thank you very much and I'm grateful to you, I'm sorry I've gone but it was that general question rightly raised by

[speaker001:] Erm, coming onto the other issues I wish to raise. I was delighted to see that th on the if you are now considering buying extra funds to see an encouragement residential home places [incomprehensible] There is however an important issue where you get shall we say a quality development in a rural area, and I mean a quality development, which would be probably has to be above the rates quoted here where talk a discussion with the owners because they may not be available to local people and that does concern me a bit in rural areas. So I think I'm asking for just a bit more, more talks and where there is a, a home or homes in a rural area that may be the only home in that area, so it is available to local people that Social Services come in and there in an understanding in planning authorities first and now the actual criteria we're working on because most local people will think that home is for local people. It may not be open to those people that need support. So that concerns me Chairman and I hope that issue can be addressed by the director in, in some way before the home is built. Erm, transport and equipment, Chairman, we've heard a lot about minibuses for schools, and coaches. I believe we should look at our, I think a hundred and ten vehicles, very carefully for safety checks because we do have tail lifts on them which closes the use, if there's a wheelchair as an emergency exit. There are issues which driver training and what we're doing in that because those vehicles are quite large, they are actually minibuses as such from the public's point of view, and they are carrying people that need the best possible care and attention in their transport. At least accident should occur so I'm asking for a review of those to see if we ha we are buying the right vehicle or not. It is an important issue. It's the same as saying should we have a diesel engine or a petrol engine because a diesel engine is less than inflammable fuel-wise than petrol and I think these issues should be raised. Chairman, I, I could go on but I, I think I'd like other people to have a say. I think those are the main points I wished to raise and Mrs next and then Mr. Mr Chairman, erm, I'll keep my comments slightly. Once again I must congratulate the officers for the excellent budget. They are extremely pleased with it. Erm, once again, the problems are being addressed in to a certain extent regarding residential homes and we're very pleased with that. Er, there's just one or two points that I, I'd like to ask. Erm, page twelve, er forty eight. Is this been raised before. Is this something new for the new budget provide more training for carers and are we going to advertise it to carers if we are? and the other point is transport and equipment. Erm, for day centre. Er, once again I may have missed something in 's report and perhaps last year's budget, a new member of staff is going to be. Erm, what about all the rest? Well. well oh no no no health and safety We'll pick up all the questions at the end if that's okay. That's it, thank you. Thank you. Mr followed by a Mrs. Thank you Chairman. Erm, to some extent I, I, I what was saying. I'm sorry to see that although we've got a large increase in budget, which is of course always very welcome, that we haven't perhaps addressed improving the quality er as much as we might have done, although we've got a lot more home help hours that may be classed as an improvement, but er there are many other areas where we could perhaps encourage improvement in community care er with a bit of thought. But my main Chairman asking questions on what the er director has to say. [clears throat] Are these projectural figures which he showed us the cash flow chart over there looking like half a pyramid? Erm, how much flexibility do we have if there is a sudden epidemic, if flu virus for instance which can make a tremendous intake or, or people requiring care. Have we got sufficient er leeway there? Under the erm of page three where we have that I assume can be solely used for residential and nursing home care, won't be used for anything else take it back. Erm, you'll have to bear with me because I just marked the page as I went through. Normally you get so many people speaking you get time to organize yourself [LAUGHTER] Oh yeah, the, the twenty pounds premium that they're proposing to be paid to the and area. Is that on existing beds or will it be for new beds only? Er, turn over the page again somewhere I believe. Oh yes, and the which we propose to be introduced hundred thousand. Have we any idea as to how much that may grow by over the next two or three years? Er going to be expended to certain groups of individuals or is it going to be open to anybody? Er because appreciate when you introduce something new that's costing a lot of money it can grow out of all proportion if you're not careful and it's much harder to take it away than it was to introduce in the first place. Er so one would like a little bit more clarification there perhaps. Er I think my other question falls on the. I don't know whether we're doing those things. Yes, everything including as well Right thank you Chairman. And there one personal explanation when I saw appendix A as opposed to the information on appendix five under page two I've got appendix five And then there's the annexation following that. Erm, under the banding system Mr Chairman, and as I say, it's purely er to clear it in my mind... we've got residential points A and B and we have a manual system for nursing homes but the C one I'm not sure whether should be in nursing homes or residential homes. When it comes to appendix A it's got B and C under the residential homes sector as far as. I'm a bit confused I'll try and explain. Thank you. A Mrs followed by a Mrs. Thank you Mr Chairman. Er I don't know how Mr could actually say his first comment about quality and improvement. I assure one area a growth of three hundred and fifty, the vast majority of whom will be actually at the production line for home care assistance etcetera etcetera etcetera. Surely that's going to improve the quality of, of provisions? It's bound to improve the quantity but I would suggest it will also improve, improve quality and care that we're providing. Erm, Mr, Mr Chairman I, I'm not going to answer Mrs 's comments, although I don't know whether the jibe about the was aimed my way. I'm not against pamphlets if they're going to be lines in communication. I've not been against lines of communication, I've been against excessive expenditure on such. Erm but erm sitting in a traffic jam this morning I was very concerned to learn that taking effect from tomorrow the government is changing the grant for adaptation for severely handicapped people. The ceiling was or today is fifty percent, tomorrow it will be er fifty thousand pounds, tomorrow it will be twenty thousand pounds and erm I'm very much tying this in with para four four eight on page ten. I wonder if the, the director plans to talk about the cri criteria we will work towards with the independent erm living fund and I wonder if we could possibly accommodate something within the criteria because I think the number of people involved needing adaptation to their home over about five thousand is fairly small but for those people it will make the difference between them being able to remain in their own home or within the community care package, a vast sum of money being needed to be spent on them to accommodate them within residential accommodation. So I am very concerned about this erm latest piece of legislation. Thank you. Thank you. Mrs followed by Mrs. Yes, you will all know my interest in mental health... erm personally because of my son and I am very pleased that under four point five two erm that the extra workers are going in t for support. Er that is very welcome, and also that there will be help at the weekends because as I've often reported before, that's often when things escalate at weekends for some unknown reason. Erm, four point five four. I would like to know erm the two or three buildings I er it may be difficult at this time but how many residents will be in each building? Because these will be resent as we know that have individual needs in individual ways and they often rub off one against the other if they live in closeness as we all do. I was once in a ward with nine other people for a year and I know how, except when passed away, I know how that can really get on one another 's nerves and erm the individual needs that they will have I know will be erm so difficult if there are too many living in very closeness. Sometimes it can be close harmony but then often it's not, unfortunately. And is an allergy doctor that ever visits these places, because I don't know about that. I would like to have information on that because often allergies erm are at the root of a lot of the problems. And regarding the rent of the centre the, the people who have gone home. Are they coming onto your support workers calling on the families at this time to help them erm because this will be the time when the families will need help and also naturally the residents who are normally at the centre, having got used to the centre, as we know, there could be difficulties there and I'd like to have the please. Thank you. [clears throat] Mrs followed by Mr. Thank you Mr Chairman. I think that following on from what Mrs was saying that erm certainly I could do with an expert allergist here because I am suffering with an intensive allergic reaction to what Mr said [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] earlier but I do realize that that was his way. Erm I've apologized to you, and particularly to the people who write the dictionary that I don't actually know the opposite of deja vu but it's what I'm suffering from. I'm hearing things now that I have not heard in fifteen years that I've been on this County Council and I would suggest erm to Mr that when he's talking about things that this County Council ought to print, and I think the one suggestion he came up with is very sensible, he could perhaps follow up with a catalogue of those things which he considers need doing that after a hundred years have not been done. Thank you Mrs. Very succinct. Er, caught me on the hop. Sorry Mr followed by Mr. Thank you Chairman. Erm, it is particularly impressive to see so many plus signs on the budget, particularly and I think there's to be I assume this is a standard thing [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er Right Er one other comment from the er Association for the Disabled. They were particularly impressed with the additional two and a half million for home care with the resources to go with it, together with the additional and also of course the eight hundred thousand for the er scheme. Erm, those were the comments I would like to make. One question please er relevant to the workshop that took place er at Hospital. I thought that was a particularly er constructive day session, a lot of ideas came from it and I am sure that there will be a number of actions to be warranted from it. Some of those actions may require resources. I would just like to whether in principle the resources are irrespective of. Thank you. Mr followed by Mr. Thank you very much. At the last meeting of the committee I did in fact congratulate the director and his staff for the way in which community care had been implemented current year and I'd certainly like to congratulate him on the way he's presented er proposals for next year. Erm, I, I think the evidence is both in the current year that in care in the community is working very successfully. Erm at previous County Council and the previous committee, together with the officers, planned extremely thoroughly and er the funding that was provided for this year both internally within the County Council and externally from the government was sufficient to provide the sorts of levels of service that we, we anticipate. I think that when we look at, I mean there's no doubt that we have got significant and welcome, and let's not be, welcome improvements of service for this year. Er but for as long as all of us sit here we will always be looking for further improvements. I mean, we don't stand still at this because what will seem a very good service this year will look like a lousy service in five years' time so let's not pretend the fact that we haven't achieved everything we've achieved this year in some previous years means that we haven't made any improvements because I think one of the key areas where in fact er improvements have been made in previous years, and to a certain extent, one could say reading this I was worried by an apparent admission of very much reference or very much expenditure on them in the provision of day centres, because I think that a key element in care in the community and the fact that today so successfully this year has been the fact that a major number of th and I don't think there's any disagreement over this, a number of day centres, very efficient and very effective day centres, were developed, funded, provided mainly in the conurbation areas and I think Mr is right to highlight the fact that, as so often happens in these instances, it's people who live in conurbations who get the best deal because it's, it's more economical, it's easier to provide a centre for a large number of people than it is for a small number of people. And I suppose he that's an area where one is worried about quantity and quality because it's in a way you can always provide more quantity I imagine at a lesser cost by going into a conurbation than you can by going into rural areas. One of the things that does, I'm not being Chairman, just asking questions, but one of the things that slightly concerns me because I know that in his document the director has put about providing day care type facilities in rural areas and I remember at our last meeting, the last meeting at one, we discussed specifically and area, erm it does, does worry me a little whether the absence of any capital expenditure on our part means that we may be providing day care facilities in some areas but it'll be of a very much lower quality or a lesser quality than we may be providing anywhere else in the areas like and and. I think it's very important that we don't neglect er people who live in rural areas and that we do in fact ensure that they get the same sort of provision erm that they do elsewhere. So you know just picking up Mr 's point, I h we mustn't confuse, I mean I agree that quantity is one of the measures of quality but it's not the only one. You, you can put more resources into things and not necessarily provide something better so I think that one has to try and do the two together. Erm s that's my general s there's no doubt that there are a great deal of activities there as always of course when one is spending a lot of new money quite rapidly, one has to monitor it very carefully to make sure that it's being effectively spent, and I'm sure the director and this committee will continue to do that. Can I just ask two questions then at the end? Erm quite rightly the director said that predictions in terms of residential admissions and nursing home admissions would be easier to make this year than last year and I accept it was very difficult then year but I'd just like to know how close the actual outcome is likely to be to the original prediction, really for information, not because I think you could have got it any closer than did but it would be just interesting to know what the s the gap was. Now the other question I was just going to ask was on appendix er erm it's oh yes here we are appendix five bottom of page two and it's talking about the condition of people on the higher rates to residential homes in the area. One of the things about when you are old and move to a residential home I think one of the important things is that you want to go and live close to your loved ones, if you have any, and it does just worry me that if you happen to be a person who is resident in and your loved ones live in, under these terms if you went to a residential home in you wouldn't qualify for the higher rate and that seems to me to be wrong. It seems to me that it ought to be our policy that we ought to try and locate people who go into these sorts of residencies as close to the people who will be concerned for their welfare as possible erm and that therefore there would be a strong case for making that sort of exception in those cases. Thank you. Mr followed by Miss. Thank you Chairman. Chairman, I welcomed this paper altogether. There are so many things in it that are good. There are one or two things that do bother me. I am very pleased for instance that the unit is to be opened at and I would like to know if there are any other places in mind for disabled problems. As far as mental health is concerned, Mr surely must be living in another age. Terrific strides have been made in mental health in this county erm lots of it under voluntary and it is very much to be commended. I am very pleased to see what is going on in the coming year. Erm, the, just, incidentally just to show I read the papers Chairman erm on page ten it is laying not laying. Thank you. Erm I do think that you've made the point that the additional staff we do have three hundred and forty three, three hundred and fourteen, is it three forty three? too high. Yes Anyway, Three six three, three six three. Erm and I do think that the press should be notified of what's going on in this for this year. It's a very considerable stride forward altogether and you know I highly commend it. Thank you very much. Thank you Mr. Erm Oh incidentally, sorry Chairman,. Erm are we continuing trading or because I, I fear that in, in in particular and with due respect to the Chairman I think the hospital discharges at the moment are leaving a little bit to be desired. Thank you. Nothing to do with me. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I don't take that personally. Erm Mr followed by Mrs. Thank you Chairman. Erm I was interested to note the reference to day care in the area. Erm it's always difficult in rural areas because the distribution of population and the comparatively small numbers involved. I know the mental health on th on the health service side are facing the same problems and I was wondering to what extent the director had been talking to the District Health Authority on, on those lines. The other thing I was interested in was the increase of ele of occupational therapists and I just wondered what the realistic expectation was of being able to recruit them because as far as I know they are a scarce resource er and not easy to find. And the last thing was, I'm not at all clear what was meant by the principal voluntary organized a organization for the mentally ill and I just wondered what was, what was his view in that respect. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Mrs followed finally by Mr. Thank you Mr Chairman. Erm, yes I think it's an excellent budget, very pleased with it. There's just one thing, page eleven. I would like a little more detail on the branch for voluntary organizations. I know there's a new committee that deals with this but could we have a bit more detail about the amounts and who they go to. It would be quite a useful thing to know I think. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, just a very quick point erm referring to four point four two residential care noting that the. The County Council's own homes has improved during the past year. I noticed, during a recent visit to, that they were offering a twenty five percent below capacity. I wonder if this is characteristic of all our homes and whether this is likely to continue, and whether any thought has perhaps been given to using this surplus accommodation for day care facilities? Thank you. Right I'm gonna ask the director, who I think is going to pick up most if not all of your points, there may be the odd point he'll pass sideways in my direction. Well thank you very much Chairman and I'd like to thank members for their, for their comments and the general welcome for the budget. Erm first of all to deal perhaps with capital spending. Erm, there is in fact a, which a number of members have referred to, there is in fact a hundred and fifty thousand being spent this year on day care capital as a result of the two and a half million package which members agreed in October and that has obviously gone to voluntary organizations for them to spend. We are obviously aware of the need for capital expenditure but fortunately we have got through the big capital programme in advance before the, the current which the treasurer may wish to comment on of the county's overall capital programme, of which er of course there are, there is competition from other committees. Er [cough] will not be in that category because it will be totally funded by the Department of Health ah as and when it comes along. Erm, there will be [incomprehensible] thoughts but er we are certainly er [noise obliterates speech] sort of the major programme that we have had. I think it is the revenue side that is important. To stay in the day s centres for a moment. Er we, this budget actually includes about three quarters of a million increase in d in expenditure on day care. Erm on the adult side. It's split up in various places including the funding of and a full year and the other providers which are so there's a total of three quarters of a million there. And, perhaps going back a bit and looking at the history of the last ten years, it is important to realize that we have developed small centres as well as large ones. The county's own er developments have included,,,,, and and of course particularly in other areas especially within we've worked with the existing voluntary organizations in developing their centres rather than necessarily developed our own, and I think that mixed pattern has been very helpful. I mean, going back to nineteen eighty three for instance, in the whole of er area there was no adult day care at all and in at that time there was only the Road day centre for the learning disabled which, with the best will in the world, is not the jewel in our crown. Erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] the er, erm, so I mean, we really have made major strides and I think if members look at the location maps I mean you can see just how we how widely spread the day centres now are. That is no for complacency and there will obviously be towns where these developed and members. Another thing which came across in your comments from more than one member was the question of quality. Ah, absolutely crucial. There is no point in just having money, spending it and having no regard to where it goes. But I think we've got to remember that the, the people who really determine the quality of the users of our services, the clients, it's they who say yes, this is what I want, this is th this is what I'm after and that is why I hope that we will be able to target on things that come out of the consultation progress s process, things like evening and weekend working that people want and, rather than simply churning out more nine to five Monday to Friday day care, what people want is it targeted to their needs where they are and it's that sort of quality that I think is so important. We also of course have got sophisticated, I hope, complaint systems now and those are another important way and we're always trying to improve our quality control and quality assurance mechanisms. The, as far as publicity is concerned, I think once the scheme starts to, to really move I think we will see a very significant ah availability of publicity on a wide scale of people. Er but I do take the point that er Mr made. The longer serving members of the committee will remember a series of booklets on mental health, mental handicap and physical handicap across the county and we're looking at that in the context of the major changes now and seeing whether those should be repeated. They were produced in conjunction with the health service, they ran to about sixty seventy pages each and I think we were widely welcomed. They are still very relevant that they are still very relevant Chairman and could very well be used again. I think they need updating and we have started to look at. Thank you. Erm er cos we would need a glossy. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm on the mental health strategy erm yes we do need to sign up for that. I think the committee has already indicated its views but I don't think that is its views where they may not have entirely coincided with a particular District Health Authority are really part of a dialogue towards consensus rather than any fundamental difference put it that way. Er, we have some points that we want taken on board such as the relevance of CPMs in the primary care team each team and that sort of thing but I don't think they are fundamental differences, they are, as I say, dialogues towards consensus. Erm, the homes in the rural areas and fees. And perhaps I can tie that in with the, the comment from Mr about people from having loved ones in I am bound to say that this hasn't been a major feature of our er er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] in fact that would be catered for by other provisions because erm under the directive on choice, any individual has a right to er say that they would like to go to a particular home. We w er we would, we would only need to pay for them at the rate where they lived. In other words, they would have to meet the difference. Unless there were special factors involved and although I cannot recall a situation where we've paid for a person to go into that's for members to discuss, not me, but we have certainly paid an enhanced rate where somebody wanted to go to to live near their daughter who was in and we felt that was a legitimate reason for paying a higher rate and, and, and we did do so, so there are other types of flexibility. What this is intended to do is to put structural change into it, to say to home owners, if you come to the area, particularly those built-up areas where there is such a shortage of homes, you can be sure that you will get higher rates and to answer another question, we are,a that would be applying to existing people as well as to er otherwise in the budget allowance for that. The erm safety on the transport yes I mean I am very happy to say that we will ask the, the staff to look at that and perhaps I can just clarify the meaning of that paragraph ah in four point eight when it says a m a new member of staff it means a new member of staff will be responsible for health and safety not just one person on his own. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm the er users and carers. That would we feel is certainly in a coordinating way and if somebody for instance er say you've got a husband and wife living together, one of them suddenly becomes handicapped in a particular way, what we are planning to do is trying to develop programmes which will enable the carer to have to go on training at the County Council's expense to enable them to look after somebody in their own homes and it's a type of thing we want to develop. I'm not saying we have done this in an ad hoc way up to now but what we want is to try and develop a programme for this and I think that should be a very useful and, and frankly I would expect it to grow er over the years as the need develops. I think peop it's clear that that could be a very useful part of er of there being care in people's homes. Erm the on the po projections and the flexibility for the flu virus. Erm, yes, we have made a, a projection but the treasurer and I and er Mr may wish to comment through you Chairman. Er we ha we are aware that there is a need for flexibility. We will know by the first of April this year rather more than we know at the moment but you're right it can go up and down, but there are lots of budgets in Social Services which are subject to this and it's part of our job to try and manage that during the course of the year. To take child care for instance, we can suddenly get two or three ah admissions to secure units at a cost of two thousand pounds a week and that's er you know a hundred thousand a year per child so we can really there are other votes that can, can absorb that sort of money. Did you? Well yes, yes Mr Chairman. Just to say that we do monitor the numbers going into, to residential care very very closely so we would we would be able to tell sort of reasonably early in the year if things were going erm way of our projections of our predictions and er we would obviously be coming back to you to see to er to change our budgets erm if, if that proved necessary. My fear Mr Chairman was that the very we've been talking about can be weeks or months Yes, yes I mean it could be nothing may happen at all may descend on us and everybody's and we've run out of money. You'd, you'd expect me erm er [clears throat] with my finger on that pulse to have made that point to the directors, may be help me make it several times during our sort of discussions about er both this year's budget and next year's projections. Erm er the other things we're doing which hasn't mentioned is that we're doing an actuarial assessment of the probable erm let's min not mince our words, death rate, sort of the drop out rate if you like of, of placements because takes people who are in there out at any period during the year or the future and we need to have some sort of projection for that as well. So we're, we're looking at er er both input and the output, if I can put it so crudely, in terms of er occupancy of er we look at the demographic trend and the correlation We certainly do. Erm, what we have done is is because what is important is to look at that particular and try and get as good an estimate as we can because, let's face it, if we over-budget then in fact we're wasting money which could otherwise be really targeted on community resources. Erm, as far as the growth of the independent living fund is concerned. If the er nas we know what the national figure of growth is for next year. If that is repeated in we would expect about five hundred thousand pounds to be included in next year's, that's the ninety five six, special transitional grant in respect of erm er the independent living fund so that's quite a significant increase next which will be scheduled for the year after the budget we are now considering. Erm, on annex A, Mr is quite right and there is a mistake there. Erm the, on appendix five and annexe A is of course is of course an annexe to it [incomprehensible] and I apologise for this. On page two er bands that should th the heading, nursing home, should come after band C and not before it. The annexe is right, the erm individual appendix is not. I'm sorry for that mistake. Well spotted. I'm grateful to Mr for. Perhaps he may have an interest in this matter. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm, reference was made to the erm changes in the s so- called er living grants. Er the situation is that what has happened is that government has lowered the mandatory ceiling from fifty thousand to twenty thousand. District councils still have discretion to make grants in excess of twenty thousand pounds and er as Mr there can be th there are a limited number of those in the course of the year. We have no indication yet that any district council is thinking of reducing the amounts it pays merely because the mandatory limit has lowered from fifty to twenty. Erm, we are aware of a number of those take place and if necessary we'll have to enter into discussions with the district councils er about and there is an element of give and take there. There's still the statutory position with the occupational therapist of this department makes a recommendation to the er on the f on the proposals submitted to us by the district council but it's purely a, a lowering of the mandatory limit, the discretionary limit remains the same and it remains to see how that will work in practice. The erm Mrs referred to the buildings for the mental health. Erm I think we probably envisage those as no bigger than six at the outside people in any one house, domestic scale housing is what is envisaged there. And the question of allergy doctors I must confess is outside my remit. Er but perhaps I could talk about the Centre, which is not. I meant the Health Centre. Yes, I, I thought that. I was going to say, the Centre is still operating although it may be reduced in size. To the people from the people who've gone home ob we hope this' ll only be for a few days and some have gone er to other homes just for the time being. We felt although fi the County Fire Officer was saying this morning that perhaps the main crisis has peaked during, during the last twenty four hours. We felt better be safe than sorry. Erm and also to prevent the handicapped people and perhaps for the very elderly it can be a little bit of an adventure. So we've er we felt that was we only had to cope with if the worst came to the worst. Erm but we will try and reverse that and er erm one particular parent from House er who is a member of this council has er certainly been following the events with some interest. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm the er Mr referred to the growth as being a standard for the future. Well er that's outside my hands but I think we should say that there should be significant growth next year as the new er as the third tranche of the community care special transitional comes in but of course there are more responsibilities. I mean, let's not beat about the bush here. We are taking responsibility for people who we were not taking responsibility for before so it isn't sort of entirely buckshee money which we distribute, there are real responsibilities here. Erm, the er question of the forecast for this year on residential work. What we did was we based our forecast, which I think Mr raised that point, we based our forecast on the admissions that we did at the Department of Social Security and I'm glad to say that we have been significantly under that level and partly I think because er we've had people who have genuinely diverted into home care and who've been able to which is why we've put the pressure on home care and on the occupational therapy services and partly because erm the, there were some inappropriate admissions I must say that. Erm, very few Is significantly low ten percent? Oh yes even though it would be more than that, it would be nearer twenty five. Erm Which is isn't surprising in the first year. I don't think anybody will be much surprised. It could have gone either way in a sense. I'm glad it's th gone this way and not the other way. I think the committee as a whole wanted to be cautious because as has been said earlier our main prime responsibility must be to those who need rest home or nursing home care and have nobody else to fund them. That's our bottom line. Erm, glad Mr spotted the tarmac laying error. Sorry about that. Erm we certainly will continue assessment training and er develop that as far as we can. Erm as far as the, the numbers of staffing are concerned, I would repeat what the er treasurer has already said and that is we do not know the conditions attached to these grants yet, if any. They were due out on December the second and as members will know I'm involved in those discussions on behalf of the. There is still no indication, as of last Friday, er meeting that the government has anything to say and there's a further meeting er in London tomorrow which I'm going to. Erm, we are indeed talking to Health Authority about the matters that were mentioned but can I come on to occupational therapists because I'm very glad to say that erm we are able to recruit occupational therapists in this county. Erm we set up I think a very successful service and if I could just mention a sad note here,me some members will know who was the county occupational therapy coordinator largely designed the service here and I'm very sorry to say that er she died the other day but her service is very much a tribute to her and we do in fact have a large number of people who will want to come and work for us as OTs because it is a good service and I'm sure that you will agree with that. Could I have a point of information there Chairman? Could I ask, it seems to me that erm in Hospital anyway, that erm no referral come we, we get nobody from unless they are referred by the ward sister. Is that the case? to us come from hospital discharge. Certainly the hospital discharge and certainly it is the case that th normally they come through the ward sister. Indeed, the government is about to bring in new regulations which will mean that the hospitals must nominate a named person for each patient who is responsible for liaising with us on discharge. And that will be welcome. I mean in some cases be left with the ward sister and I think in general that's who they will nominate. The principle is that the, the decision to discharge somebody is based on a clinical decision presses the button to start the process and but I mean that's, that's how it works. Thank you. Erm, the principal voluntary organization for the mentally ill. What we had in mind there is a parallel organization to the ones that already exist for other client groups. We have the Association for the Disabled for the blind, we have Age Concern but there isn't a for the mentally or for mental health or for whatever it might be called, and these groups are very useful in providing a focal point for liaison between statutory organizations, including the health service, and the users and carers, and providing points of lobbying concern, points on which we can comment and that that increasingly is the way we're working in the community care consultation process. Mr referred earlier to the views of the Association for the Disabled on proposals and that is very very important and I think increasingly it will be the committee's concern to if you like have very s acute listening ears to, to what is needed and what is, what is wanted in the community and organizations like this can be very important in not just lobbying in the crude sense but providing a real medium of communication and I think that that would be helpful. Mrs referred to the schedule of grants for voluntary organizations. Er last years's were reported er under the er Chairman's action procedure to the committee and I'm sure the county secretary can assist you with a copy of a schedule which was in fact a statutory background paper. Here's that piece of er Thank you There'll be more to come Yes, thank you Next year's will of course be going through the new procedure Chairman I think those were the main, main points that were mentioned. Thank you very much for that very comprehensive answering of all the queries and comments that were made and thank you to members for Oh no, there was one other point. Mr mentioned the er. The situation there is that the, there're, if you have double rooms as doubles then there would be, we do have a relatively low occupancy but the committee had decided to move towards double rooms being used as single occupancy only and on the, I've got the latest figures for the first of January in front of me just by ch really just by chance [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] that is taking into account the occupancy will be eighty seven percent Well, I think we've had a wide-ranging debate and I'm very grateful to all members for er their input in into the debate. Erm there are just a couple of points that the director [clears throat] hasn't touched on erm because they're probably outside his direct remit. The one I think mentioned was the me the question of mental health capital funding for day centres. Erm, it does fall into the area of discussion with the... responsibility to provide the er the capital funding for those buildings and I think that's a view I would certainly take at this time er with regard to the other health authorities in but it's erm it's er primarily a health r health erm authority responsibility. We are obviously under joint financing prepared to erm er progress a lot of the, our side of the staffing of it. The other area I wanted to comment on erm is related to that actually. other remark, which I can't let go unchallenged, that ninety percent of mental health work in the m community is looking after the worried well. I, I don't know where he gets that figure from. It's an outrageous claim erm I don't think it's substantiated by any research whatsoever. I've heard it repeated on the radio recently and even the Secretary of State didn't go so far as to use the ninety percent figure but was talking about the seriously mentally ill and the not so seriously mentally ill. The problem in terms purely of resourcing is if, if one doesn't look after the not so seriously mentally ill they very rapidly c become the very seriously mentally ill with considerable financial resourcing problems and also enormous manpower problems because they do then tend to need twenty four hour close supervision nursing and not care in the community which can be done on a part-time basis and the implications of that are frightening. There's a national debate going on t we're not gonna crack it here this afternoon and I don't want to get in there but I just wanted to put the other side of the er of the coin to that. And the final point I wanted to make, although yes, we do welcome the special transitional grant second tranche of ten point eight million pounds, and it would be churlish not to, it is nevertheless a reduction on what the share of it was last year erm s of the national total so there is actually a reduction in the share that is getting this year, and alongside that, and of course hence the need for the recommendation in the budget, is that we've actually lost very specifically one point eight five six million in the rollover grant from last year's erm S T D tranche which we are specifically asking and very grateful to policy and resources for, hopefully, erm we're asking and we're hopeful they will underpin it and the Chairman is here and er er has nodded in that direction I think it's fair to say. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Em, but that's the reason is that there's, there's a shortfall of the government funding of one point eight five six on that rollover funding which we think it would be unfair to ask this committee to find out of you know cuts in other areas within our, within our budget and that's the reason for the recommendation. So can I therefore, having had a very full debate, put the recommendations on page thirteen to the committee, including the erm relatively small capital programme set out in appendix one and ask you to approve recommendations A to F. Is that agreed? [speaker002:] Agreed [speaker001:] Thank you. I regret to say that I forgot to give the Vice Chairman's apologies for non-attendance. I spoke to her last night. She's confined to bed with her second attack of flu in, since er since December, so that's why she's not here today. My apologies for not saying so at the beginning. Thank you all for attending, oh we do have to formally, formally move into part two and that's for one purpose only, and that's to approve the minutes of the last meeting Can I, can I just draw attention to an error under paragraph one nine two, the date at the beginning of the second line should be first December, sorry first October, nineteen ninety three, not tenth of December. Subject to that, can I have your agreement to er sign part two minutes as correct? Thank you. I declare the meeting closed. [speaker002:] [talk in background]

[speaker001:] that there was but the figures are actually not as er as er disappointing as er Mr may feel. We do acknowledge that the fatalities by the end of er by the end of December last year fatalities had increased in the county but that does, but that's not really the figure that goes, go on because the numbers involved are actually quite small. Overall during last year, this is to the end of, of November actually because fin figures aren't available for the end of the year, the reduction was four point nine percent, which compares with four point three percent in the previous year, so not only are they still going down, they're actually going down slightly more than they were in the previous year and that must be encouraging. And the next point on that is that the amount of road safety in the base budget figures, the amount from various different areas whether it's education, training, publicity, accident investigation or traffic calming, that amount of money is untouched so the same amount will be spent in the coming year a as was spent last year. As far as the capital receipt money goes, not all, it's not been possible to spend all of that this year because the development of some of these urban traffic calming schemes is actually very complicated and we've had to re-think some of them. The result is of that is not fortunate that they've been delayed but that in fact we have as much money to spend on them next year from the capital receipts as we will have spent this year, so in a sense we, we're not going backwards there either. And then I would just draw attention to the proposals. Several of them there. Er, rural traffic calming, speed cameras, provision for cyclists, pedestrian are all new money with a road safety bias in it, so I think we've done the best that we could this year. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr [speaker001:] Oh one sorry one last point. Mr asked about traffic calming on new roads. Er and the answer to that is yes. Er when development schemes are put before us, or put before districts, it is possible to er to include a scheme which is designed to be a calmer scheme and in fact we have our own advice notes on roads and res residential areas that we hope to advise developers on that. And in fact the there, most of the traffic calming is actually being paid for and carried out by the developer for that scheme. [speaker002:] Thanks Mr. Mr. [speaker001:] Yes er Chairman erm the eighteen point three million that we quoted in last year's report, we actually added into the revenue budget the provision for structural maintenance that was contained in the capital programme. Erm, there is a figure of seventeen point two million being quoted in this report. As it says, it's just the revenue works programme. If you add in the structural maintenance which is in the capital programme, which amounts to two point two million, and add that to the seventeen point two, you get nineteen point four million and that's the figure that needs to be with last year's figure at eighteen point three. So the equivalent figure for, for the last year is nineteen point four, that's an increase of one point one million. Now part of that is inflation and part of it is the addition of, of erm proposals which are in the report erm from the Policy and Resources allocation of nine hundred and ninety thousand. [speaker002:] Right, thank you for that clarification Mr. Right, can I take you to the recommendation on page six. [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Agreed, thank you. Right, agenda item number six which is on page one of the blue book. regional transport strategy. The committee are asked to support this initiative by to develop the sustainable regional transport policy and to appoint the chairman and two other committee members to attend the conference being arranged in March nineteen ninety four. I would suggest that there would be logic in both the other spokespersons attending this conference. Does that meet with committee's approval? [speaker001:] Agreed [speaker002:] Right, good, thank you. Item seven, shaping the way ahead. This is an update on the consultation following the conference which was held in July nineteen ninety two I think, yes, erm and basically seeking the committee's approval to have a follow up conference this July in the centre in and to all members of the Council to attend as erm for approved as approved duties. Erm, Mr would like to say a few words about the conference overall, er sorry about, yes the conference. [speaker001:] Yeah. Thank you, thank you Chairman. Er yes both this and the previous item are linked in a way. Erm, the, the regional conference will be a major national and indeed international conference and I think it's important that are there to participate and influence what goes on in the future. We are, as you will be aware, in the midst of a very intensive debate about transport policy in the moment, at the moment, er provoked by various things, the M Twenty Five widening proposals, British Rail privatization, er shortage of runway capacity, a variety of things. All of these will be dealt with at that major conference so it is important that we are there. The July conference that we're planning. The timing is quite nice really and deliberately so in that this will be the follow up to that in a way and it also follows the earlier conference, as you've heard. What we're talking about,w what we intend to talk about in July is not just whether or not our policies are the right ones but the practicality of implementation, which is actually the hardest bit of all to grasp, and what sort of things we might do, whether it's about spending more money, whether it's about influencing people, whether it's about physically restraining people on where they should go. So I recommend that conference to you and I hope it will be er an interesting one. We'll certainly do our best to make sure it is. [speaker002:] Right, thank you. So the recommendation on page six of the blue book. Agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Item eight, the highways maintenance works programme selection of schemes. This sets out the draft proposals and erm will after this meeting go to all members of the Council for them to go through with a toothcomb as well as you. Erm, if you feel that you are in any way upset by the distribution of schemes in this booklet as it stands, your chance is between now and March to get back to the officers and say, but what about mine. [speaker001:] Fair comment. [speaker002:] Mr. Not too many of you though I think [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Absolutely right. I mean, the point about this is that actually I must emphasise it's a needs based assessment, both in allocating the overall amount of money that goes to the various areas and er those of you who've already looked at it will see that area three seems to have a disproportionately high amount of the money. Erm, but it's not actually disproportionate. The, the amount of money is allocated on a weighted mileage basis so it's to do with the length of mileages in the area and it also reflects the various types of surveys that are done to assess the condition of the, the roads in the various areas, so that's how the money is first divided up on an area basis, but within that all the schemes that are listed here have been promulgated either from such as yourself, from members of the general public, or as a result of our own inspections er and a priority has been assessed to them in a methodical way. But, having said that, if you feel, particularly with schemes that you are particularly familiar with, that that one is above or another or we could substitute rather than, there won't be any more money, that's the point I need to stress I think. You can make pleas for extra schemes but if you do so I could only suggest that you also accompany it with one that you would rather er is not done, so there are actually replacements rather than additions. I'd best, I'd best leave it there. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right, I've got Mr followed by Mr. [speaker001:] Chairman members I, I'll look very hard for, for the words [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I know you will say and I will support you, that we really don't want members bringing up detailed points like that at this committee. was er whether the please ensure erm looking at carriageway major repairs you see area two tended to ninety three thousand pounds and that covers a lot of things which might include. Would it be possible for areas in area two with that information please? Yes, we'll certainly do that. I'll ask Mr to get that arranged for you. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr. That you very much Mr I've got Mr followed by Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you erm... I hardly ever comment on these but I just, I wasn't sure what because quite often these things go under another guise, but there are a number of schemes on the drawing board for investigation as you all know and Mr will know some of those they've been around for, for some years. I thought that they were about to come to fruition. I just hope that they aren't completely lost and in particular I'd just mention the because it's being increasingly used and will be as the bypass comes in into use because access will be restricted to the, the erm roundabout. It's extremely noisy because the surfacing at one stage just didn't take properly for all sorts of reasons the traffic along there is increasing quite dramatically and I hope that will be part of those schemes. I'm not trying to work something new, it's already around and I just wanted to make sure it's not forgotten. [speaker002:] I'm sure it hasn't been forgotten Mr. Can I. [LAUGHTER] Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm I'm not gonna mention that sort of little village in the north that I come from but on page twelve I do notice that thousand pounds. This has surprised me a little. Could you give me just a little clarification on that [speaker002:] Okay thank you Mr. Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] I think that's probably covered by Mr 's point but we'll seek clarification in a second. [speaker001:] Erm, please, appalling and have been for many years and er the whole of the road needs to be done. [speaker002:] Mr [speaker001:] Yes. Obviously there are a number of detailed points and these are just the ones that are coming off the top of this meeting and you will have more when you take them home and, and read them. Most of the schemes that are put in here are actually assessed by the area highway engineer and if you've got particular schemes, especially ones that you know you've talked about in the past, the best way of dealing with them is to speak to him directly and say, why isn't it in this time? If you're not happy with the answer then I'd be pleased to hear about it and er and er obviously we can assess the priority. Erm, on there's a specific question I'd like to ask er if he could throw some light on that one. Yes, if I can mention that the is on the and it's really associated with the government's intention to raise the er limit of lorries to forty tons by nineteen ninety nine. Now what we have done is looked at s these causeway relief arches which pass the water from one side of the to the other at. We've looked at those and the v they have very seriously deteriorated. The concrete's spalling, the reinforcement is being attacked and we've looked at various ways in which they can be repaired or replaced. To replace them, for example, would cost something over a million pounds, but this is actually a repair to those er culverts the. [speaker002:] Right, thank you Mr. Right, can I take you to the recommendation on page nine that the programme be circulated to all members of the committee. [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] Quickly then [speaker001:] I would be the case [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] but we usually have a similar document on the minor capital works. We've got, we haven't got capital programme there is minus of two thousand to show in appendix two but we usually have an itemized area by area booklet on the minor scheme so that we know where the minor capital schemes are, but we haven't got that That's right. It's gonna be brought to the March meeting. Paragraph three point six. [speaker002:] Is that okay then? Yes. Right, thank you very much. Can I have your approval that it goes to the rest of the Council then?... Thank you. No, right. Item nine item for information really update on last committee meeting. Mr. [speaker001:] completely wrong procedure. I, I can't understand the secretariat allowing this to come out were told by the president that it was not possible to use this money unless it was grant related. Also on item one six two indicated very very clearly and very positively that the money would be found in the nineteen ninety four ninety five budget, not from the ninety three budget and er somehow you've got to resolve one or the other. I agree with what has been put on the agenda of our last meeting and that should be and that should be and that is fate, you cannot alter that unless you do something about it. The reason it's come out in this way is that you had the debate on the er original proposals for this extra money which didn't go as was recommended er and you made a decision on that and then later in the agenda, and I can't find the, the exact point now but you had a discussion and a suggestion was made and agreed that if there was any money left over investigations should be made and that the surveyor should give erm consideration Madam Chairman to using any of that, perhaps for a camera, and that was agreed, and it is noted somewhere, and that's what Mr has done. So I would argue with you Mr whi which was one six two part two on page four Madam Chairman what I call just below item two top of page three of the minutes. Minute one six O r below refers to the suggestion that some or all of the uncommitted savings might be used to finance the purchase of equipment to facilitate the early introduction of a speed enforcement camera trial site. Nineteen forty four nineteen forty five. [speaker002:] No, no, no, that was, that was on the revenue [speaker001:] Can I clarify that one? I think there's a bit of [speaker002:] Right, can I ask the county surveyor to clarify then please. [speaker001:] What, what we have actually is two proposals on speed cameras, if I can make that point. We th to rehearse a little bit of the debate we had last time on speed cameras,th there was erm discussion about who should fund the camera themselves because being a, the Department of Transport and Home Office recommendation, that they should be funded by the police, but because of Mr 's question at full Council and the wish of this committee to spend some of this additional money if you like, or in ninety three four for safety related measures, it was thought wise to combine the two and actually try and fund a trial er package of speed cameras cos it's, it's about six sites and one camera, from the ninety three four budget that we've actually found. Now, in addition to that, and I don't know if this is the source of the confusion, we've also made provision in the ninety four five budget for another er camera site operation, except that it's a lower figure because that doesn't actually include the camera because we made it clear that as a result of the decision last time here we didn't want to create a, a permanent precedent that this committee always picked up the bill for the camera. So that is the position as it was agreed last time and this report really says that. It says that of the identified possible savings of, I think it was three hundred and seventeen thousand, we've already got commitment to about two thirds of those, but there is sufficient money left to fund a speed camera site th erm in the county and we have acted on that. We now have er a working group with police and indeed with because we want consistency of procedures across the county and are now working towards implementing such a site during this financial year. So you're saying that the treasurer was wrong to say that er in funding No No Er, no, I think that's a misunderstanding. [speaker002:] Mr, can you [speaker001:] What I said at the last committee was I merely advised the committee that if they went ahead in this current financial year that the grant would not be available. Erm the committee took into account my er my comment but still decided to go ahead with the scheme. I, I don't think I ever said that we couldn't go ahead with it this year, I merely pointed out, I merely It's written down wrong in here then. pointed out the grant and in my view the minutes at one five nine explains very clearly precisely what I said at that, at that committee. [speaker002:] No, it's not wrong here Mr [speaker001:] There is no grant for ninety four five either. That budget provision is County Council funding. shouldn't be doing this then. [speaker002:] No. Well, if we, if we don't so something about these speed cameras Mr we are not gonna get them and we have all agreed that we are very anxious to [speaker001:] get the grant [speaker002:] Well, we're still trying to get them through the Police Authority but we are making provision through this budget if we don't, yeah [speaker001:] Why should we spend out eighty thousand could be spent on better things than putting cameras on posts. [speaker002:] Well a at the moment I'm not sure that we, we think that. I think that there a we are strongly committed to thinking that the cameras are a very important trial. Can I ask erm Inspector, Inspector to comment please? [speaker001:] to the last meeting, it was my understanding the same as everybody el everybody else that we have not the funds or budgeting for a camera in this financial year and that approved. Th in the coming years we will make budget provisions for cameras and the hardware at the site will be provided for by. [speaker002:] Right, thank you for that. [speaker001:] are we lending the police the money? [speaker002:] Well, it's a rather complicated thing but I think we need the cameras and I think we must go ahead and get them into so that we can see if they work as well in in terms of road safety as they have in trials elsewhere, because the results that have been obtained in London and also in Cornwall and Nottingham have been very very impressive, as you know. Mr one more [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Jus just to clarify one point. There is a meeting of the Police Committee on Monday and there is an item on their budget for the provision of the camera and of the back up support for processing the offenders as part of their budget proposals and they will be considering that on Monday. That's for ninety four five incidentally. [speaker002:] Right, thank you. I've got Mr and Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm, the matter was debated very clearly er at the last meeting and set the scene er quite clearly so erm we welcome the conclusion and erm I hope go ahead [speaker002:] Thank you. Mr followed by Mr [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm, I, I do welcome the conclusion and er er the fact that we are going ahead with these cameras. If I could just clarify this then. I understand that th as we are funding this that they will be used on county roads rather than on trunk roads? Yes, a useful point of clarification because actually we bid to the, we've made a submission to the Department of Transport to install cameras on their behalf on their roads and we want them to pay for them. Now the indications are that they are likely to provide some funding though we haven't had that formally in writing yet. But they are taking the view that they will only provide the service equipment, that's the cabling and the installation and what have you, but not the cameras and that it's again up to the Police Authority to provide the cameras. But the ones that we are funding will be on county roads yes. [speaker002:] Right, thank you. Mr and then I think we'll draw that to a conclusion. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Can I just ask a question? Reading minute one anyone response [speaker002:] I don't see why not. Are you offering? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Not personally but I have be I have been asked. [speaker002:] We don't want a notice on it saying sponsored by, but I certainly think that's something we should look at if the offer was forthcoming yes. Right, thank you. So, we have an approval on, is that agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed [speaker002:] Thank you. Right, item ten, the development of land at, the new interchange. Committee recommended to approve a scheme which is a requirement of the planning permission for the neighbourhood development. I've got Mr and Mr. Sorry [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Order. [speaker001:] Erm, this erm interchange will relieve a lot of the pressure on not only the that comes into but also the roundabout, one of the busiest roundabouts in the county, but I think the erm two of the notes were conservation areas the provision of a footpath I think and the other thing, in, I hope that will be considered because at least this new junction will draw up more traffic from the south and will be a great use to people there and it could well. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Doctor. [speaker001:] Yes, I'd just like to support this view about erm but I think the construction will tip the balance as to the way traffic going er from London towards will route erm and I think is gonna be the main victim. I think complaints about erm and it seems where we have the problem of our own making if you like with this improved road scheme we are installing traffic calming erm and er I think that to be told that it's going to be left and looked at in relation to all the other er sites needing traffic calming is a little bit er [speaker002:] Thank you Doctor. Mr. [speaker001:] Yes, if I could comment on the traffic calming. Yes, that certainly is perhaps the major comment to come from the conservation exercise. No one seems to be querying the junction itself. What I would like to do. What I, I intend to do is to, I think it would be unfortunate if, as the result of a major development which is actually funding this new junction, the County Council then has to pick up the bill for other ameliorating effects a little bit further on the network. So I, I will go back to the developer and see if they will be prepared to fund traffic calming work. Of course, that isn't in the agreement that is already signed, so whether I shall be successful or not, of course we don't know, but I will do that as a first resort. If it becomes a question for the County Council to actually refund it then I think the report is right in that we must consider whether the needs for traffic calming here are any m higher or lower than other requests for traffic calming elsewhere in the county because you will be aware there are an awful lot of requests for traffic calming. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you. Erm, recommendation on page fourteen. Agreed? Right, item eleven, the access road. I have Mrs wishes to make a change to the recommendation on page five of this report. Right, okay, thank you. [speaker001:] It's a very slight change to the recommendation erm Chairman which appears at the end of the report. Unfortunately it's not numbered because it was a late item. I would like to add please erm, and to seek any planning permission which may be necessary, to that recommendation. Just in case it's, it is necessary at some time to, to put in a formal application for the road as well as the site. Also, I have to report the receipt of another letter of objection which I think the county surveyor is wa aware about but does not alter his recommendation to the report. Chairman, if I could just add to that. Yes, I am aware of it. This is a letter er submitted by on behalf of who I believe is and this is on the question of the absence of an agricultural appraisal so we will be carrying that out prior to the decision of the Planning Committee. That's the first point. One other letter, while we're mentioning receipts of things, the report does say that er Environmental Services Committee will be considering this and I have er yesterday received a letter from and I just want to tell you the outcome of that before the actual vote occurs, if there is one. Erm, it's recommended that County Council be informed that Borough supports in principle the construction of the access road. Regards to link, that's the linkage on the bottom, as an essential and important element in the overall package, a request, I'm abbreviating this to give the main points, request the County Council to consult this Council at an early stage upon the detailed design of the access road and wants, and they're really repeating, wants the County Council to implement in its entirety the access road at the earliest possible date. And they want the associated traffic management proposals included as part of the scheme. Now just a brief comment on that. I have to say it's not the current proposal to, to complete the bottom link of the scheme to the timescale which is associated with the erm er waste plant at. The pr current proposal is the access road to the new plant but not beyond it and I'm not proposing to alter that. The whole br reason for bringing the scheme forward in the programme was associated with the waste management plant and it wasn't er er a scheme which would have achieved that priority in its own right. Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] Right, thank you for that clarification Mr. I've got Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Thank you for allowing me to. Erm, I intend to brief because A because everyone has got in front of them a very very thorough and I shouldn't think there are too many questions that people would want to ask. as possible. It has become necessary, having found the site at that we would need the access road. The access road is not a major item for this committee until well beyond the year two thousand and four. Thereby bringing it forward is purely to service the, the new complex and also it will help relieve the traffic problems areas of. Erm, therefore there is certainly no intention of taking this road any further than the site, definitely not south of the railway line. Er, the public consultation that was held actually didn't produce anybody saying they were opposed to the line of the road or even that the road should go there, so we seem to have a fairly unanimous decision that way, that the road should be er implemented. Er, Council are also agreeing to the road and a District Council are in agreement with the road, albeit that they have asked for the road to follow more closely to the erm but I believe it is acceptable that the road and the line of the road in general principle is. The concerns that I have are that when the road does go in that it does protect and it does in fact more of a protection by being there than it is in actual fact in existence at the moment. Other than that, I would hope this meeting do agree on the recommendations of us that the road is accepted [speaker002:] It's on page five. [speaker001:] access road is accepted and that it can be included in the design list for nineteen ninety four and five. Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I have got Mr followed by Mr [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Madam Chairman, you will know that I have written a number of letters. Erm, really it's the consultation that er the people of my angry about. well. At the preview I asked no one in knew anything about it. Oh yes, it had been leafleted but that was. Over the years it has gone on such a long time. This was considered in nineteen eighty two. Because the people of really didn't feel they'd been consulted, I, I carried out a little survey of my own and got a very good response. And these aren't the sort of people that write to us using block capitals all the way through, these are reasonable people who've had their property damaged over the years some quite horrendous tales and talk about walls being knocked down. They hear the access road. They would prefer to call it the. They hear the access road is coming, they are not consulted, they don't know anything about it and over the years again I must reiterate. I'm sorry about this. The newspaper are going on and on and on about the problems that people have road and road. In the Argus. You see this really isn't a link road it's a bypass. I sometimes think the access road bears as much relation to as Paul Gascoigne does to the Queen, Queen Mother. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Well, I think all I can do is to reiterate that this road would not be considered for construction at all at this stage if it wasn't for the probable re-siting of the erm transfer station and therefore we would not be looking at any aspect of it at this time if it were not for that. I've got Mr followed by Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. I, I won't take up long, much of your time, I just didn't want anyone to think that I had er given up in my old position not to be a no doubt, I believe other measures could have been taken. I don't need to be reminded that it was the previous administration who put it in the structure plan but I also want to remind those who weren't here that I was utterly opposed to that at the time. I am still opposed to it and er I just think that it's not the right way to reconcile contradicting policies that we've had. [speaker002:] Are you going to lie down in front of the bulldozers? [speaker001:] I'm not, I may look daft. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I've got Mr. [speaker001:] Well, I mean of, of course it, it is an unfortunate choice, isn't it, access road? Anybody who knows the locality would agree absolutely with Mr. It is a bypass an and it, it's good in that respect because it will do erm a lot indeed for people who live on Road, for example, people who live on Road and I know that Mrs knows that area particularly well and might agree with what Mr says that it, it doesn't actually get into at all, therefore it's er [speaker002:] Excuse me Mr, did you not hear what Mr said? It went into the structure plan under the previous administration under the name access road. But you made a mistake. Thank you so much. [speaker001:] Erm, no, I'm agreeing with Mr. Mr is making the point, a perfectly reasonable one. Erm, the second point really was that erm as far as Highways is concerned and I mean we, as you've explained earlier on, as Councillor explained, it's gonna be very very tight I think, erm in years to come in terms of major highways and starts of major highways. I mean all I, I would like to, to say is that so far as this particular road, whatever you may call it, er is concerned, that we look at highways priorities in this committee and that we would receive an assurance that this would not be bulldozed through, if I may put it that way, erm and opposed to one two three four other major schemes which are perhaps of more importance in terms of highways rather than er a, a corporate objective. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I think those points perhaps ought to be taken up at the General Purposes Committee since er we have the problem of their decisions. Er, do you want to add anything to that? [speaker001:] Just to answer some of the queries and comments that perhaps with Mr on the er problems of consultation, which we do accept, and they're, if I can apologize for the coverage of the leaflet. Er, a decision was made. In the event it proved to be the wrong decision. We didn't extend it far enough. In fact two thousand leaflets were sent out so we actually tried quite hard but we, we did exclude some of the people who should have been leafleted. That wasn't though the only form of public address that was given. The m public consultation meetings and the exhibition were advertised in the local press and I believe on the radio as well, so word of mouth I think in, in the event did overcome that but I can understand people's feeling that they were excluded and it was not deliberate, it was an oversight. So I'm sorry about that. Just to be clear, the, we talked here about er the funding and the, the need not to, to let this muddy the this committee's own highway programme and I think we we're aware of that. The cost of the additional piece of road beyond the er the link to the er waste transfer station would be an extra one and a half million. Now, that is not required to access the site so that actually would compete, I suspect, to funds against this committee and er and that might influence people's decision on how far to go with the road. A, a point on programming too er I make really because of the discussion at the General Purposes Committee last week. Erm, we have looked again at the programme for building this road. There's certainly no way we can shorten it and in fact erm s programme timing is very dependent on the ease or difficulty with which we actually get the land. Er, so I just make that point because of the debate last week. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you. Can I take you to the recommendation on page five of the report then. Is that agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed [speaker002:] Thank you. Right. Item twelve, traffic regulations. Erm, the first one, twelve A, is Street and. S sorry, Street, Road, Lane to the, traffic calming scheme. Agreed? [LAUGHTER] I have some, some indicating. Doctor [speaker001:] Erm, thank you. I mean this scheme doesn't look to me like available but I'd just like to say reading the objections I am amazed by the large number of and er to stop the running, the rat running, you've anyway erm speed cameras are not gonna be much help. Erm, speed cameras have their place but er it's not everywhere. [speaker002:] Thank you for that Doctor. I've got Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. I will be very brief but just to welcome the fact that in we have been waiting for nearly fifty years What? [speaker002:] They hadn't even invented traffic humps fifty years ago. [speaker001:] we have been waiting a long time traffic calming. Er, sorry not fifty years, twenty five years. I, I'd just like to highlight objection number one point three motorists have not seen the. Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] Right, thank you very much, so that is agreed. Can we proceed to twelve B, item one, the County S Secretary has, now wait a minute, we've gotta change the recommendations because the [speaker001:] I, thank you Mr but I this is a little bit important. Erm, I, I apologize but for some reason I can't explain that the recommendations on, on this items twelve B one and twelve B two should read as follows. Firstly, that approval be given to and the County Surveyor be authorized to implement the traffic calming scheme as shown on drawing numbers, the drawing numbers are right, and secondly, that the traffic regulation order be made as advertised. It's just to split the recommendation up to make sure we've got the authorities we need to do the whole lot I think Chairman. [speaker002:] Right. Was that clear to everybody? Mrs? [speaker001:] Yes, as I represent the area erm and it does say under five point three that local I would like to comment please, just on a few. [speaker002:] Yes, if you can keep it short and [speaker001:] I will, I will. Erm, I'm in favour because I had a walkabout with therefore I would like to say on five point three the and on five point six I would like to say B can we just have some traffic calming on the boundary, such as Lane, Road? And erm on page thirty six, on two, is it a good idea because has a dreadful bend and I'm really in favour of this. And on page thirty nine could we please make sure that the telephone box does not move closer to people's homes. If it means that it has to go on the other side of the road, could we please have that. That's it. Thank you. [speaker002:] We are looking at that. Erm, Doctor. [speaker001:] Thank you. point made regarding buses and road humps. Erm, are the same profile of speed humps erm because I note minibuses this situation here. [speaker002:] Thank you. I've got Mrs and I think we'd better leave it at that. [speaker001:] Sorry, when I read this last night. This amazed me. I mean, what is the use of a if you're miles away from everybody's home? Why don't we locate them in the middle of, of fields? why do they have them at all? [LAUGHTER] Erm, I think if Mrs understood the area, she'd know why. [speaker002:] Well, we are looking at the situation and I think that's all we can say about that. Erm, right. Can I have your agreement to the up-dated amendment please? Sorry. I'm sorry. Mr wanted to come in before we agreed I think. Sorry. [speaker001:] Sorry th it's just there are two comments made er and I think they're actually questions. One was about ex from Mrs about extending the scope of the scheme. Er, this one already costs a hundred and seventy thousand. The difficulty we have with both this scheme and the others that er you'll come to in a moment is that there are always people who want you to go that bit further. Er, this has been the decision for the boundary of this scheme though clearly, in monitoring it afterwards, we need to take account of whether or not it actually transfers problems. We will do that and er and monitor it afterwards. Mr, buses and road humps. Er, and minibuses and road humps. Erm, yes, the questions of profiles is being er dwelt upon in committees like this all around the country at the moment. Buses and road humps are an unhappy combination and a lot of these reports, in fact all of them bus routes to get a standard objection now from, from bus operators and it, of course it's not just in this county, it's, it's nationally. Er, we are still learning a lot about traffic calming. At the moment, sad to say that physical vertical is the most effective means of slowing people down and and narrowings and visual erm signs and that kind of thing, road markings, do not have the same effect er but we are working on that and hopefully in our next batch of schemes we will start to experiment with things like speed cushions and what have you which, which have a lesser effect on, on erm on both minibuses and buses. Not really the answer to the question but it's the best I can do. [speaker002:] Right, so that is agreed? Erm, can I take you on to the next one which is twelve B two. Now again the County Secretary wants to alter the recommendation on page forty nine. [speaker001:] The wording will be exactly the same as the one before, Madam Chairman, but with the right plan numbers. [speaker002:] Okay, erm, do you want to say anything about this? [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] Road and Avenue? [speaker001:] I think only, no, I don't think so, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass. [speaker002:] Right, oh,. Erm, er Brigadier d [sigh] Brigadier, sorry. [speaker001:] A small point. Erm, I'm not in any way objecting to this at all.. Erm, it seems an awful lot of money, eighty thousand pounds, er erm I just wondered how much of that sort of money Absolutely [speaker002:] Right, okay, thank you. I'll ask him to comment on that in a minute. Mrs. [speaker001:] No, I don't want [speaker002:] Oh sorry, you were waving at mis at Brigadier. Sorry. Erm, Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you, thank you Madam Chairman. Just as Chairman of governors of the local boys school, we've er, as Mr knows only too well, have written on a number of occasions erm saying how soon will the er these measures be brought forward, and I welcome them and er hope that we will agree them. [speaker002:] Right, thank you. Mr. [speaker001:] Right, the general point I think is on cost and consultation. Er, you will not the first year returns estimated at... at ninety odd percent I think for this scheme. Er, the current number one figures for casualties, I think, I, I'm just thumbing through my papers, I'm not gonna put my finger on the right one, I think it, the average value of the casualty is about thirty five thousand pounds. The average social cost of a fatality is over seven hundred thousand pounds. And that's of, that's of course aside from the grief and suffering that happens. In this case er many of the casualties are actually school children here. Erm, so the pr the actual cost of the scheme I think has to be borne in mind there. The consultation point is another one and in fact I've made the point myself I think er last year, that for many of these very small schemes, the actual cost, staff cost, in developing the time taken to develop them, far outweighs the actual implementation cost cos this is just the implementation cost of the scheme. It is really a question of judgment. Er, certainly in the last well, all the time I've been involved in developing these schemes, twenty seven twenty eight years now, we've had a gradual increase over the years of involvement in the public, with the public and we've been criticized where we haven't done so. So I think we are actually obliged, and it's right that people should be consulted, but there is a point about it that it takes an awful long time and that is actually the reason why we've got er a whole programme of urban safety management schemes that er are taking a long time to develop, it's almost two years now, and the main reason for that is toing and froing with different designs with members of the public and the worst thing we could do is actually put in a package of schemes which people say, well that's not what we wanted anyway. We'd be better off to save the money. That's all I want to say. Could the County Surveyor just confirm that it's a statutory requirement that all these schemes do have to be publicly? It's not a statutory requirement for consultation. It's a requirement from road humps that they be advertised, I think I'm right in saying [speaker002:] Yes. There's no point of course [speaker001:] but they're not like a traffic regulation order. [speaker002:] Right erm Mr very quickly please. [speaker001:] Yes Chairman. I just wanted to make one comment. I have. I think it's a fatal mistake to have dropped the kerbs as they have. [speaker002:] Mr. I'm sorry but I really can't allow you to talk about Square in the middle of a paper on. [speaker001:] traffic calming [speaker002:] Well, we're not really talking about traffic calming, we're talking about a specific scheme in. I am sorry. Right, can I take you to the amended recommendation on page forty nine. Is that agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Now twelve B three is an extra paper that came to you on Monday, quite a long and complicated paper. I think I'll ask the County Surveyor to comment. [speaker001:] Yes, this, this actually, thank you Chairman, this actually is very much an example of, of what I was just saying about consultation. There's been a lot of consultation. Er, we haven't, in the scheme that's before you, we haven't been able to take account of, of all the things that people have said and I think the most significant point about that is the comments that Road should also be covered by this scheme. Now, the cost of this scheme, if I can find it, is three hundred thousand pounds. That gives an idea of what the cost of traffic calming is these days, it's extremely expensive. We are looking at Road, that's the assurance, we are considering that er as er an extension but there isn't funding available for that within the present programme so we will come back with a proposal for Road but it will have to be compared with other big schemes so the scheme we are proposing now is the one that's before you, which er I won't comment on unless people have questions. [speaker002:] Yes, the pages are not numbered. Er, the recommendation is on about the fourth [speaker001:] That's because it's late I'm afraid. the fourth page of the report. [speaker002:] Anybody want to speak on that? Mr, sorry. [speaker001:] Yeah, thanks, Chairman for the map of the area. Er I was g I will say what I was gonna say. First of all to thank the Surveyors' Department for cooperation on various things that have taken place and where possible the altered or amended suggestions have gone in er themselves. Erm, I think the scheme has been delayed for quite a long, well, I mean obviously it's important to get this scheme off the ground and when people, and I've had lots of phone calls and discussions about this, and when people have spoken to me I said, it's important to bear in mind two things. A is the cost and B is that these suggestions could cause a time delay in of course the implementation of the scheme. For that reason I don't propose to object in fact I'd be very happy to move it. But I'm very concerned with what the surveyor's just said about regarding Road. Now in the old we had er quite a reasonable scheme on this actual erm but you see, about ten years ago I think it was, there was another estate built on to, it's called and although at that time we made the strongest possible representation for improvements and traffic calming in which is the only road that goes in and nothing was done. And erm I think Road is the key element of this traffic because not only is it a question of the estate but it's the main through road from the up to Gatwick Airport and this is why er I understand that the calming proposal in road has yet to receive the M O T authority to use it because scheme. But I hope that as soon as possible we can with the various approvals and that the money will be found because I would suggest, without the speed reducing measures, this scheme will be a complete waste of money. And when you the schools, the shops in that area, I'm not only surprised it wasn't considered in the first place, but secondly, it is the key to the whole scheme and er although I'm quite happy to move the erm recommendation, I must say that I have a very very deep concern regarding Road. [speaker002:] I've got Mr followed by Mr and I think then I Alright, very quick one and then I [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. In principle I think this is a superb scheme but erm I have one reservation. Erm, it's great having a neighbourhood area where all the traffic goes slowly, but there are certain radial roads in where the traffic should move I think at some speed. It's great to go slow where you've got houses, children and all the other things, but I, Avenue, which is on er plan five, is one of the radial roads that goes through the centre of erm out in the direction and to put a thirty mile an hour speed limit on this I think is totally unrealistic. I know there have been a number of accidents in that area but I would hope with all these other traffic calming measures we could have kept that speed up to forty miles an hour. Erm, it's unusual for anybody to have their speed as low as forty miles an hour so I'm very disappointed in having a radial road that I think should be a fairly fast route out of town thirty mile an hour speed limit. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I've got Mr followed by Mr. [speaker001:] is a vast neighbourhood and it's got no outlet, where everything goes up and everything has to come back out again and all that goes along a small country road. Er the speed they come out of that bend is unbelievable and I speak from experience Madam Chairman because my daughter lives on that very corner where the bend is and er [speaker002:] Right, I'll ask the County Surveyor to comment on that in a minute. [speaker001:] We really ought to have transferred the money [speaker002:] I don't think we're ready to do, I think that's the points. Mr. [speaker001:] Well, can I, can I broadly welcome erm this scheme and the preceding two schemes these schemes and the areas were chosen by an independent consultant based upon an accident record. That, that is, that is the way that they were chosen, and two years ago, I think, we put one point two million pounds in for the first seven schemes. I'm doubly glad therefore to, to welcome their appearance and I know how difficult it has been and would like to praise all concerned for the intense nature of the negotiations which, which have gone on. I mean, their patience is unbelievable, I think, in the face of, of so many demands for so many changes. I think I'm right in saying Madam Chairman that y of those first seven we've still got two schemes in still to come and there was one in erm so I look forward to the progress and er that we're making on this and all I can say is [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr. [speaker001:] Yes, the comments on Road. Perhaps if I could deal with Mr 's point first though cos I'll just refer you I think to paragraph three point two, three year accident record there, fifty five injuries, seventy one casualties, many of them taking place on the distributor road network. You've probably seen the speed campaign, you know, kill your speed, forty mile an hour kills, twenty miles an hour you can possibly still get away with it. I don't think I'll say any more about that really cos I think it's self evident. As far as Road goes though, we are in a dilemma, and we have listened to people. Y you'll see amongst the plans that you've, you've got before you, plan number seven actually, shouldn't really be with these papers because it's not a proposal for approval, but it does show the extent of the work that's been done and the key element there is that there are these speed cushions I mentioned earlier on as a possible way forward there, which has been in consultation. They're not something we can do without Secretary of State authorization, that will take time, and as Mr just mentioned, the budget, and we are still proceeding with that budget, but we don't have extra money to do this within that budget at the moment, so, yes, we haven't ignored the problem. We will continue to progress it. I would er agree actually with what I think Mr was a saying on balance, that's it's best to go with the bit that you've got rather than hold that up to, to er to come back to Road later. Road we will have to consider though against other schemes also competing for the next waive of funding. Can I can I ask a direct question? If the gets the go-ahead on the actual erm traffic calming to be used in Road, how soon after that decision will this committee be able to make a decision on the implementation? Thank you Chairman. We are having, we, we are at the moment reviewing all our traffic calming er requests because there are a whole load of them and in fact some of them we've not been able to proceed as quickly as others so we, we need to look at the whole thing This is part of the scheme before the county committee. No not, not, not erm in the scheme that was identified by the consultant I believe. in the papers in the report [speaker002:] But it's not in the recommendation Mr. [speaker001:] No, I'm aware of that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And, and I would expect to have completed that review by March. If I can bring a report by March I will do so but it, this is quite a complicated area. [speaker002:] Right, well, I appreciate [speaker001:] I don't mean just on Road incidentally, I mean on the whole range of traffic calming demands. [speaker002:] Right, thank you. I appreciate your concerns but can we take the recommendation on the fourth and fifth pages of the report. Is that agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Item thirteen Road in, residents' parking. This was anticipated that there would be some add-on to the report that came to the last committee. [speaker001:] Nothing to add Chairman. [speaker002:] Anybody want? Mr. [speaker001:] Just one brief comment, Madam Chairman. Obviously, as erm I am in fact the local member referred to in er in the reports and erm it's quite true that erm, it's rare with some of these erm parking proposals that you get so much positive response from the residents but this has been very evident. The only,a the residents have, are of course, once again this goes back to this, the problems that we're facing with the er local government reorganization debate, are at a loss to do er erm to find that the on-street parking provision is the county's responsibility, off-street parking provision is the district's responsibility and actions by, by the district are in fact causing problems for us with this. And er a further er fly in the ointment, if one could put it that way, will be of course with the erm the local hospital whose site is just off this er the key plan provided, their decision from the first of next month to actually charge for spaces within their area, which of course will have a further effect of decanting even more cars into neighbouring streets and thus put pressure on some of the streets which hitherto have not benefited from ah residents' parking so there will be further er obviously further requests from er from those residents of neighbouring streets. Erm, the irony of the sort of split responsibility is that er one of the things that we have to obviously bear in mind with any future in erm extension of residents' parking schemes is the cost, and er it's interesting that the district council's off-street er parking account erm for the area is, has got a reasonable surplus, and er well we as an authority're responsible for, for off-street parking as well. Some of the surplus there could in fact have been ploughed into a er further extensions of the present residents' parking, but of course, as has been mentioned here, I welcome the, the modest er extension of the residents' parking into the other half of [speaker002:] Right, thank you Mr. Er, agreed? Thank you. Erm, item fourteen is a erm selective list of civil engineers for contracts. Agreed?

[speaker001:] point of view today because we have actually finalized that and that's the reason for the, the amended recommendation. [speaker002:] Right, are you happy with that? Oh, I'm sorry, Mr wants to speak, sorry. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Briefly, er I think that explains why we haven't got the erm item mentioned in paragraph seven. It does indeed, yes, sorry I should have mentioned that [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Erm, this is something that I've spoken with about over a long period and what really has concerned me is that we've two red signals, both facing the traffic and children and blind people could be crossing thinking the traffic had held up, and when I or detecting we rely on our own engineers maybe going round that way, maybe the police or public reporting it. That doesn't seem to me to be a very satisfactory way of detecting that these systems weren't working and with such complex systems as we've got such as the system, it would take one person quite a number of minutes, if not hours, to check all the lights so I very much recommend this system and I should I suppose declare an interest when you start to talk about bulbs [speaker002:] Right, thank you. Is that recommendation agreed then? [speaker001:] Sorry Chairman. Just a very quick point. Could we also look at the actual time that's on crossing signals. Sometimes you hardly get any time to cross the road before the actual lights turn, and particularly the handicapped and the blind [speaker002:] Yeah, okay, thank you. I'm not taking any more on that thank you. We have agreed the recommendation. We will bear that in mind. Thank you Mr. Erm, item sixteen, the on-street parking supply and management contract. You want to say something about this one as well? [speaker001:] I would like you please to refer to the county secretary in the recommendation on page seventy three with the county surveyor. I'm sure he'd rather let the contract. [speaker002:] Page seventy three [speaker001:] Yes, the county secretary seems to harbour these wishes to become the [speaker002:] No, no, that's not fair. [speaker001:] Well you might have thought it was nice [speaker002:] Okay, is that recommendation agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed [speaker002:] Agreed, thank you. Item seventeen erm the urban grass cutting contract. Now this is a very interesting one because we are always under great pressure to increase the number of cuts etcetera. Have you gotta change this one as well? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] It's not my fault though, this one. [speaker002:] Right, shall we let the county secretary tell us what she wants to change. [speaker001:] I'm not the county secretary [speaker002:] Sorry about that but it's just you're representing him [speaker001:] Yes, I do represent him. Erm, Mr explained the reason for changing this but basically it's to, to swap us again and that it will read that for one, that for ninety four to ninety eight the standard of grass cutting be seven occasions per year and the county surveyor in consultation with the Chairman be authorized to accept tenders from suitable contractors and the contracts be let to commence on the first of March nineteen ninety four. And secondly, I think the second one is exactly the same as it stands Madam Chairman. [speaker002:] Right, thank you very much Mrs. Right, I've got Mr No, oh, I've got Oh sorry, er I've got Mr and then Mrs. [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. I never thought today I would sit here and criticize very severely [LAUGHTER] er, grass cutting in Borough Council, and I see their contract is up for renewal next year, is about the most disgusting grass cutting you could ever wish to see. I think I talk for the whole of when I say this, erm, the disgusting way that Borough Council are doing grass cutting. There is part of that grass cutting probably due to the fact that our pavements are also covered in grass, some of them as much as two foot on either side, and you've got two foot down the middle, going like that, where the grass is growing and has not been cut back since nineteen seventy four. Er, now the county really ought to look at this problem of grass growing over the pavement but the Cou Borough Council are using the shields that are not capable of cutting grass edges, grass verges. Th you drive along a massive machine, probably doing more damage getting up and down the kerbs a and everything else. They are going along at vast speeds, and I say vast speeds, they're twenty miles an hour over the grass and you can imagine how much they're cutting. The also the big rotary blades on 'em are throwing all the grass over the pavement and all over the road and eventually finishes up all down the drains. I would to our officers they should not grant another contract to Borough Council until they start to use the correct machines for doing the work and I hope that that message now has got across to the cou county surveyor and he really ought to be talking to Borough Council to find out what they're doing about it. [speaker002:] Right, thank you Mr. Mrs followed by Mr [speaker001:] Erm, thank you Chairman. Well erm I entirely agree with most of what Mr has said. It is absolutely appalling. The whole trouble, I think, started when the districts were formed in nineteen seventy three, I think District Council to seventy seven, but it's always been a problem. Erm, first the district did it and erm they didn't want it so then it was decided to have, to share it with county and that was a disaster too and they did so many cuts each a year and then county took it over. It's never got any better. Erm, the only time it was really good in my area was when Urban District Council did it with a little chap pushing a barrow and cutting the grass and it all looked absolutely beautiful. I know it's difficult now because population has increased, grass verges have increased. Erm, they go round with these machines, the grass flies everywhere, they never do the edges. Several contractors have had it and it's never been right and eventually a few days or weeks later a man comes round to pick up the grass which has already flown everywhere so it's too late and a wa total waste of money. Erm, there obviously isn't enough supervision by the contractors of the people they employ. It's certainly absolutely dreadful and erm people complain when they come down and say, whatever's happened to, it used to be such an attractive place, but obviously when the grass is knee high it doesn't look very nice for anyone to see. I think we've really got to do something about it and hold a proper supervisory and see what's going to go on this year because it's, it gets worse. I personally would like to see the parishes of the towns doing it themselves, I don't suppose that is possible now, but at least let's have somebody reliable and supervised. [speaker002:] Thank you Mrs. I've got Mr followed by Mr. [speaker001:] Yes, thank you Madam Chairman. Very briefly, I would've preferred to have seen a contract based on the end performance with the grass being cut to a structured length. We always seem to get the wrong sort of weather in three different sorts of machines. The playing fields are cut very well, no doubt about that. It's the verges that're either not cut at all or they're cut with one of two machines, the primo is little bits and the machines that so aptly described. They don't come round at the same time so you're always out of phase and it always looks untidy. The only grass that's well cut is where people cut it themselves outside their own house but, in particular, erm,th I would like to see the supervision of the contract and that we don't cough up the money unless the job's done properly because I think we're paying for a job that's not being either done at all, or when it is being done it's not being done well. It's the quality of service we're getting is ab abominable in that area. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. This is of course why we, we are proposing the trial in which would er give us an end performance grass cutting contract but we don't want to do that right across the county because of the projected cost, until we know whether it would work. Erm, I've got Mr followed by Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. To some extent, to a larger extent, I agree with what says. The grass cutting we get is appalling. Erm, unfortunately erm, when you let a contract out, you've got certain criteria and a contractor will only do what's specified on their contract. Unfortunately, whether the contract drawn up in the first place has been a correct one or not, I'm not sure. I do know that Council do pay for two extra cuts over and above what the Cou County Council have paid for. But the question of machinery is a very important issue. The person between the Parks Department and the erm this contract in, they are two separate departments and there's no doubt about it, the Parks Department do a very good job. Why the people who cut the actual grass that people walk on erm I don't know, why they don't do that job properly. We have asked questions about clearing the grass up afterwards and we're told that would probably be two or three times the amount in the contract and in the actual, at the end of the day you get what you're paid for, you get what you pay for, and if you don't provide the resources or you can't provide the resources, I should say, then obviously you've gotta make do with second best. Whether we could look at our contract and see if this could be because mentioned about grass on the pavements, not only is it the machine that's doing that, but there's a danger to young children from the machines they're using and elderly people with pavements being very very slippery once they're doing the grass if it's raining. Apart from that treading in people's houses. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr, Mr. [speaker001:] Well thank you Madam Chairman. There's been a lot of hot air generated over many years about grass cutting standards but it's not an idle thought when I say if anybody wants to see where the best grass cutting takes place then they should visit. Erm, I've gotta say that I think the year was nineteen hundred and seventy six when it was the County Council's responsibility for cutting the verges, not the district. County arbitrarily said, we're not doing it any more, that's to save money and the thing fell upon the district councils. Now, even in it took us some, some time to get the situation under control but we did eventually get it under control but, as I say, not without a lot of misgivings and very very strong complaints from the public at large. Now, but in many areas of the county work was put out to contractors. Finally the th county picked up its responsibility again but the damage had been done and er grass cutting never seems to have recovered in some areas on the that I'll just try to describe in a few words. Erm, I welcomed Chairman the present experiment before us, I hope it succeeds, I hope it sets a continuing example to other parts of the county but you only get what you pay for and in, in we top it up from the seven cuts to I think thirteen or fourteen. But there always remains still one point of complaint by some members of the public, that is that the grass that's cut does tend to blow about, but if the cutting is frequent, there's less grass t to blow about at a given time. But if you want the grass swept up as well then I tell you here and now, you're getting into cost that's greater than that of cutting the grass. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I've got Mr and Mr and then I'm drawing a line. Mr. [speaker001:] Well, Department of Transport erm say that five cuts per year is enough and, and er we, we do seven cuts which is a little bit better than that. I wouldn't disagree with Mr in what he said about the more cuts we have the better it looks and so it stands to reason it's a question of cost. But I think that he would probably agree, and I know he's made comments at various times on this subject, about er the grass that is left behind and it is always a problem I think throughout the county erm where grass is cut and then spread around. I think a lot of people who suffer from asthma type diseases here do suffer quite severely erm because of this and I think that at some point we're probably going to have to, to look at it and try and devise a system which, which allows us to pick up the grass. Erm, I think probably I would support the recommendation as it stands because I do think that we need to have a trial to see if the end performance, and I very very much support the idea of the end performance, er in district. I think we should carry that out and see, see what the results are before we go county- wide. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Very quickly I, I think the sentiments expressed I, I agree with. Erm, a bit on the recommendations one they're seeking approval er that erm the er tenders from are left from March nineteen ninety four to March nineteen ninety eight which seems to me to be quite a long time to let that go if we're all a little bit concerned about what's going on. Erm, I think the scheme is, is quite right but are we not in, in too much changes to the specification. That's what it's all about, I'd like perhaps to see whether we can tie that up a bit. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I will ask the county surveyor to answer all those points in order. [speaker001:] Yeah. Perhaps the last point first just to get that one out the way. Er, yes, it's a requirement for the actual length of the contract on us in the first place but the second point is that, in the tender documents, we've actually asked all the contractors to price all the different permutations, whether it's seven cuts, eleven cuts, hundred millimetres or a hundred and fifty millimetres. So, having appointed a contractor, it would be possible to alter the specification with the prices already tendered for, alright? So we, we have a certain amount of flexibility in there. Just to make some general points. Yes, I mean it's quite clear grass cutting is one of those issues which has been very vexatious over the years and I'm sure it will continue to be so. It will, because er in part, under compulsory competitive tendering, the pricing is driven down to rock bottom and below. We pay something like one penny per square metre to cut grass and, as someone has already said, to an extent you get what you pay for. The cost of a if w if the specification included collecting the grass, you multiply the cost by a factor of seven. Now, performance specifications are all very well, and we're gonna try one here and see how it works out. You don't necessarily get a better job with a performance spec than you would simply by specifying that you had more cuts because in er in a slow growing year, if you like, the contractor actually gains because he doesn't need to cut so many times to comply with a maximum of a hundred millimetres length, whereas if you've got an eleven level cut you would actually have a continuous length of grass, much shorter, so it would look smarter. So performance specification isn't necessarily better, it depends on the weather again. We all know what can happen with the weather. Erm, the other thing I'd like to draw your attention to is para six point one, just a little tabulation there, because what they're saying is that on the number of cuts per specification, that's what exists now, er three hundred and twenty eight thousand, that's about the same as this year, er if you go to the hundred millimetre cut, which is what we're suggesting we do on a trial basis, the cost to the County Council will amount to another hundred and fifty thousand pounds a year. So, it's not chickenfeed when you start to er, or maybe it would be chickenfeed [LAUGHTER] so, so it's a lot of, sorry about that, er it's, it's a substantial sum of money and obviously we want to look at how the one works. Incidentally, it will cost us about an extra eight thousand pounds just to do the trial in. Comment on the position there, only in so far as the extent of the existing contract which is not due to expire until first of January nineteen ninety five, and we're not proposing to ask to terminate that. It is their own direct labour organization that run it. But there will be cost involved, I think about eighteen thousand, over the course of that year, in sustaining that contract rather than replacing it with a new tender. Can on that Madam Chairman? Are you saying you're quite prepared to let them, how they cut it, you'll let it go on for another two years without you doing anything about it? Not another two years, I think that was the first of January ninety five, it's actually one year, and it's not a question of doing nothing about it. We are er overseeing them, as we do with other contractors, but it is, it is the district and it's their own contractor and we hope that they will improve their performance. We can terminate it if, if, we can terminate it at the point the other contractor if it, if things really are bad this year. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Has the additional cost has gone up from six thousand to eight thousand more, or is it still six thousand? You mentioned eight thousand [speaker002:] That was for [speaker001:] Quoted six thousand Sorry, beg your pardon, slip of the tongue, it's six thousand. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. Er, can I, can I have your agreement for the recommendation then? [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Yes of course. Erm right now item eighteen, the report of delegated action. Erm, can I ask you to note those points? Agreed? Oh, hang on. A point. Mis Mr [speaker001:] Madam Chairman if I may just make a comment of concern that information was not, on this point was not forthcoming to the county councillors of that area perhaps to make er give them an opportunity to make comment prior to to you so you could make this delegated action. As you know doubt are aware of the importance that it is to us in that area of the and the current enquiry that's going on at the moment. [speaker002:] Right, erm, did we not have a fair amount of discussion about this at the time, before [speaker001:] Not that I can remember at all. [speaker002:] Got a copy of it? I haven't got it with me. [speaker001:] No, that's the actual paper but I No, it comes to us to pass on to you and we passed it to you [speaker002:] No, that's not the right one [speaker001:] No, I mean, who? Should she? Note the point [speaker002:] Yeah, okay, we note your concern and we'll, we'll try to make sure it doesn't happen again. [speaker001:] Can I make the same point as well please? [speaker002:] You want to make the same point? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah, alright, okay, thank you. Right, okay, fair enough, I, I accept that point and I will ensure that we [speaker001:] Yes, sorry, just to interrupt for a moment Chairman. Of course, the actual initiative to this does come from the district so the primary source of information at consultation should actually be through them before we get asked to approve it. As a county councillor, rather than a borough councillor on the way Perhaps it does [speaker002:] Thank you [speaker001:] Can we make a proviso that the delegated action on that A item is in consultation with the local members concerned and I think that will take care of the point. [speaker002:] Right, well, it's already happened so we, we can't I, I think we can we can look at what we can do about it in the future and whether it is practical to erm consult local members where possible. I think that's, that's all we can do at the moment and I take your point Mr, thank you. Anything else there? Right well thank you very much for your brevity and we will be able to send out team of experts out to deal with floods after lunch. Sorry, there is no part two because the report will be, has been delegated. Thank you very much.

[Robert:] Brian has agreed to join us as Edinburgh Theatre Manager and David hopefully will be but the tape, erm... for Brian's benefit is, is the first feature film that's been... made available on video with an audio description built into it [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] so it is erm something of a step forward, erm... we've had material in the past which you may have seen which was recorded from the telly, a couple of years ago in nineteen ninety [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] erm what was that woman called from America? Can't remember but people from Boston in, in [Iris:] Margaret [Robert:] No Lori [Iris:] Oh yeah [Robert:] from the Description Video Services in Boston, there's a lot of described telly in America [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] er and we obviously are trying to push S T V and B B C into this as well, but you know and film, we're talking to film people as well erm, but this is the first er feature film that's been done so Marcus who normally from R N I B in London, I think it's my opposite number, the answer erm is quite excited about it. So [Iris:] You want to see it [Robert:] press the button... [Iris:] you see past me? [Jane:] Yes I can, thanks [Iris:] no you can't [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] What it is, it's a formula extract which is repeated twice, once with the soundtrack, well once without, once as, as a sort of regular broadcast [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] then with the description on it [Iris:] With and without [Robert:] With and without, yes as they say [Jane:] Before and after [Robert:] Before and after... [Brian:] So what happens in the finished article? [Robert:] Well what it is, it's going to be available as a video cassette with the soundtrack [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] in it [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] as a whole film, which I'm gonna want a copy [Iris:] It's going on sale in September I think [Robert:] it's going on sale in a couple of weeks [Jane:] Eighteenth of September, yes [Robert:] erm [Jane:] I put it on, I've suggested people put it on the Christmas list, I think it would be a good Christmas present [Iris:] First video movie on the description, yes released Hear My Song, twenty six pounds [Jane:] No three for twenty six [Robert:] Three for twenty six pounds, and ten pounds is a hell of a subsidized price [Jane:] ten pounds or three for twenty six [Brian:] Mm [Jane:] at the end of September [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] What do you think about it? [Brian:] I like it [Robert:] Right... is that actually running Jane? [Jane:] Oh well no, it doesn't seem to be. It is running but it's not showing us anything which is interesting [speaker002:] ... [Jane:] thing's plugged in [Robert:] Is that channel nine on the telly? [Jane:] Channel nine on the telly, mhm, there's the right one... that's all in the right places... don't know... We're not going to see it after all [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] It doesn't look like it [Jane:] strange isn't it? There must be nothing on it. [Iris:] Try spinning it forward a bit, might be [speaker002:] ... [Jane:] It's a very short thing really isn't it? [Robert:] Mm... [Iris:] Ah [Robert:] No, that's not it [Jane:] No it's not, it's definitely channel nine that's the video channel [Iris:] Ah [Robert:] That's not it either [Iris:] It isn't anything... [Robert:] Mm [Jane:] It's not tuning at anything, oh... [Robert:] Oh well, we'll, we'll tell you about it instead [Jane:] Sorry about that [Brian:] Miracles of technology [Robert:] Erm, it's [Iris:] I'll give you a selection of songs from it [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Erm, is it a new film? [Iris:] No it must be a year old or something [Robert:] Right [Jane:] Yes, it's [Iris:] it's comparatively new [Robert:] Right, because I knew nothing about it, yeah, so [Iris:] it seems to have been quite a reasonable picture, you know, it's quite well [Robert:] as a film [Iris:] Mhm As you probably know it's presently showing at the cinema, and is a story of an Irish tenor Joseph Locke [Robert:] You must've got an extra sheet than me because one of the things I was moaning about this morning erm, maybe you've got a different [Iris:] Do you want a copy of this? [Robert:] maybe you've got a different letter than the one I've got [Iris:] Maybe you have a that is the letter [Robert:] because [Iris:] and that is... what is audio description on video, audio description and Hear My Song [Robert:] Oh it's that song, yes, right, I remember that one coming on [Iris:] other uses of audio description [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] television, cinema, theatre [Robert:] Yes I've got the information sheets [Iris:] You've got that [Robert:] I got a different letter from this [Iris:] Right [Robert:] I've got a letter from [Iris:] cos that's the one [Robert:] Marcus rather than, from than this [Iris:] And you've got all these [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] things, yeah? [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] Roster and things [Robert:] Yeah. So I'm not quite sure what the long term connection with er talk is [Iris:] Right [Robert:] and I'm not entirely sure, Marcus did phone me and say, at one point, when he was making up the mailing list, he's had three hundred copies of that made of the extract and he was kind of you know, sniffing around for who to send them to [Iris:] Right [Robert:] erm, so you, that's when he said he would send one to me, but he's obviously sent them to, and Cath's, Cath's had one [Iris:] Has Cath had one? Maybe she'd pass it on to me [Robert:] Erm, erm [Iris:] I would like to think [Robert:] so there's one at, there is one at and there is also one erm [Jane:] Yes because it would of come to from that's where mine came from [Robert:] But I'm not sure, I, Doug has got one, Doug is my chairman, chairman of the Arts Committee erm [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] I'm not quite sure why he's got one apart from, unless Marcus just decided to send one to him, but he's sent it to home, so I'm not quite sure what Marcus is mailing [Jane:] It's voluntary organization so your [Robert:] yeah [Jane:] Mhm it could be that [Robert:] but it would've normally come to us here you see at [Jane:] yes [Robert:] anyway Duncan [Jane:] Anyway [Robert:] Duncan phoned me on Friday about something else and said oh have we had this tape, so I said yes, and he said have you seen it and I said no not yet, and he said, erm but he thought it was quite good... erm [Iris:] It's Cathy aye just bring [Jane:] Alright, hello Cath [Cathy:] Hi there Sorry I've been to disability Scotland [Robert:] Oh right [Iris:] There's a nice swivel chair there [Cathy:] Oh it's smashing feel particularly voluble [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] No important [Cathy:] Important that was lovely I haven't seen [Jane:] Have you not? Do you want to take your coat off? [Robert:] Now, can I introduce you to, I don't think you two have met. [Brian:] We've, we've met before at [Cathy:] yes [Robert:] you have met? [Brian:] Yeah [Robert:] You have [Jane:] Do you want to take your coat off then? [Cathy:] Yes I'm fine, I'll just leave it here, that's right. [Jane:] You sure it's alright there, do you want some coffee? [Cathy:] Oh that would be wonderful if it's not gonna cause, oh yes that's [Robert:] And I should [Jane:] Do you get a copy of [Brian:] yeah [Robert:] And I should explain, the microphone in the middle of the table and the man over here with the tape recorder is tape recording this meeting [Cathy:] Oh no [LAUGHTER] no [Jane:] So everybody in the world knows you were late [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] so I wasn't really late, it was in the wrong place. [Robert:] So the purpose of the, of the tape recorder is [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] is to do with the [Jane:] Milk and sugar Cath? [Robert:] development of dictionaries and the use, the use of English so we have been assured in, that, that, anything we say will be divorced from apparently all proper names and phone numbers will be bleeped out [Cathy:] That's okay, no problem at all [Robert:] so we're to ignore it. What we were just saying Cath was, we was just trying to look at the, the tape that's just come from Marcus, the erm the film and [Cathy:] Have you seen it? [Jane:] It won't [Robert:] We haven't we were just gonna look at it but Jane has a technical knock, not speaking to each other [Jane:] It won't show, no [Cathy:] It's awful [Jane:] Is it? [Robert:] And now, well I said [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] what I was just gonna say was that Doug, Doug had phoned me on Friday and said had I seen it and I said no and he said it's quite good he said [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] it's four minutes without the description, then four minutes with it and, and I thought that doesn't concur with what Cath said to me on Thursday afternoon [Cathy:] The technology that's not fair, the technology is good and, and very obviously gets over what it's supposed to get over, that's terrific, but wait till you see this subject matter [Robert:] But the actual but the actual extract as, as Cath said to me the other day, you know she felt sure and I said to her you know in a full length film they could've actually chosen a better moment [Cathy:] Aha [Robert:] because [Cathy:] and we were talking mainly, an elderly, a female elderly client group, let's be honest you know, in terms of blind you know, and just wait till you see it, it's lovely [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Erm and I think it's to a couple of colleagues [Jane:] No it's not working I think it's you know [Robert:] this morning when, where we all watched it for the first time together and as, as Richard said you know, I'm, I'm squeamish about going to the dentist, so, and it cos er, it's basically there's a scene in the bar where they're pulling this guy's tooth out [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] which is, is not sort of, you know [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Richard you know [Cathy:] Could of been a cataract operation, should of been [Jane:] Could of been, yes [Cathy:] grateful for it. [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] So you know that, that as you know Richard said you know good idea, could make quite a few people, so I think Marcus, if, if Marcus chose that moment he, he really [Cathy:] Chose the wrong moment [Robert:] could of chose a better one, erm having said that the second part there's two parts, there's this scene in the pub and then there's this er scene on the cliff top and the second scene one's a bit better [Cathy:] Right [Jane:] Oh right [Robert:] The thing, two things that struck me about it, one of which is that we were not talking about a separate soundtrack, the actual existing soundtrack of the film is merged with the audio description [Cathy:] Right [Robert:] is what we've talked about in films and T V is erm having erm... I suppose the integrity if that's the right word of the existing film or programme standing alone and then on separate soundtrack like in the theatre [Brian:] Mm [Robert:] you know, there's a description which you can choose to listen to or not [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] with this film it will be, you know, compulsory, you won't be able to make that choice, erm and the other one, the other thing that struck me just from one of the particular extracts of, of people standing on top of this cliff, erm is, is the way that the importance of, in something like a film where it's, you know, it's done for good, you know the importance of having an actual creative writer [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] doing the writing to get over in the description cos they talk about the swirling sea [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] there's one or two moments like that, which is possibly a different, you know, if, if, you cou cou you know, putting it on, on to tape [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] for life, you know, [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] it's that kind of thing, rather than I suppose to the theatre way, you know, you, you react much more spontaneously, so I thought that was an interesting thing that thing [Jane:] I just thought [Robert:] jumped off [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] the page, do. I thought it was interesting as well that the stuff I got from the I and R V with it, was a lot about audio description and the tape and how much it cost and how wonderful this was and it was the first time it had ever been done, but there was nothing, as is always the case, there was nothing actually about what the film was about, it was full of sort of, this is the first time it's done, but nothing about sort of this is the film about, about this, this is what the story's about, you know. It's, it is very akin to that one sort of you know, well here's the audio description you better like it. I mean I suppose it is the first time, it's the only film of its type, you, you know what I'm getting at, it's exactly the same thing we, we tried very hard to avoid in the access guide, actually being able to say what instead of just saying you know [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] the Lyceum Theatre is fully wheelchair accessible, we actually describe what the theatre, what kind of plays it shows [Brian:] Yes [Robert:] erm, you know why it's different from the Travellers which is round the corner [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] you know, erm what the difference in the work that, that, that they do. [Iris:] I don't, I'm not quite sure of erm that's, I think that's a different thing. Sometimes say people say to me can you give us of the play, what's it about, cos we don't know what it's, you know about, before we come, which is fair enough, erm, that's very often sighted people don't know [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] Mm [Brian:] Mm quite [Iris:] so if blind people are trying to be on the same level terms with sighted people, then, you know, why should they get an [Robert:] Mhm [Iris:] I'm, I'm not quite sure, I mean I'd give an if there's one available [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] for instance there's a nice one for [Robert:] Mhm [Iris:] so I gave that and there was nothing, this year the citizens have nothing at their we put people off going, so I'm not saying anything about it, not erm, I don't, I mean, I don't, I could say what the story of Major Barbara is, but then it's not in any of the printed pamphlets for sighted people, therefore, should I, what should I do Cathy I don't know [Cathy:] No I, I don't I really don't, I think it, in it with [Iris:] yes [Cathy:] it's the quality of access [Iris:] Exactly [Cathy:] it's not some sort of different, erm, sort of, it shouldn't be a different scenario for [Iris:] Well that's what I feel, yes. [Cathy:] and er, very often if you knew... somewhat, you know, obviously modern it would, it would spoil it because you're there [Iris:] You would, that's right [Cathy:] to see what it's like really and to feel what it's like and to, no I don't think we should do. [Brian:] Some things are very difficult to actually work out what the as well [Iris:] you can [Brian:] I mean [Cathy:] You're right [Brian:] take Marilyn last year, we didn't know what was gonna happen until it happened [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Brian:] and then it happened different every night as well [Cathy:] I suppose if there's something in the programme then they should [Robert:] I think that's what I'm talking about really actually is that, I mean if you're, if you're selling a film like you know if, if [Brian:] It's a marketing line [Robert:] it is a marketing line [Iris:] Yes, it is a marketing line, right [Robert:] as saying, you know, this is a story about this and that and you look at that [Cathy:] But then I would read it, so if I was in the theatre I would read that so I would know that [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] before the play started [Brian:] Mhm [Cathy:] so blind people should be in the same position there shouldn't they? [Brian:] Should, yeah, yeah [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] So I mean if there is, if there are two lines saying this is the story of [Jane:] That's right, yes [Cathy:] Yes [Iris:] That's [Cathy:] but then we do that at the start [Iris:] anyway [Jane:] Yes you do that [Iris:] but it's beforehand eh, for instance they have little flowers that tells the story of what's, what the plays about and I think it's fair enough to read that, because a sighted person would go in and pick it up [Cathy:] Would be reading it [Iris:] and say what is this? [Robert:] That's an interesting actually side chart, I mean this is completely off the agenda and things, but erm, I just had some information up from er, from RADA and er [Cathy:] That's the dates for everything, I see, sorry [Robert:] One of the things the group in Wolverhampton I think at the Theatre Royal there is, is doing both audio descriptions by sign language I think and one of the things they've, they, they do is meet in the bar [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] like half an hour before the show [Cathy:] Mm [Robert:] and someone, I don't know whether it's the director, or someone actually says this play is, is the half hour, quarter of an hour, chat say, this is what the play's about [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] you know and the precis you know and I thought that was interesting that they did that, because it's not something we'd thought of really doing, ever [Iris:] No, no [Robert:] erm programme notes yes, but not the actual sort of this is the story of two people and this happens and that happens and that also comes in [Iris:] Yes [Brian:] Mm [Robert:] so I was, I was interested to see that, I mean that [Iris:] No I didn't, I think that was right [Jane:] I wouldn't of thought that were right, and all [Cathy:] Mm, the director always, I mean [Robert:] After show talks yes, maybe to be able to say well what do you think of that and [Cathy:] Oh yes that's terrific, in fact it would be fun, aha [Robert:] but er, no [Cathy:] but no I don't think [Iris:] That's assuming that blind people wouldn't understand what they're hearing on the stage [Cathy:] I think, well you see, this is the other thing, yes [Iris:] that's right [Robert:] that's right, yes you have to tell them what to look out for kind of thing [Cathy:] There's enough examples of that and you read, the most peculiar thing I, I think I was telling, I don't know if I was telling Iris I have a notion I had, had it in my mind to tell you and you turned up with this blind girl to do this M C with the video team [Brian:] Mhm [Cathy:] the team you know are very, very important people they announce in the room we are from video such and such, you know and just looked at me, this black man explained everything to everybody else and then the guy went over and sat down and explained it all again just blind [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] and m I thought he was gonna start saying something different [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] but I realize the same thing, I said erm, [Iris:] She can hear [Cathy:] she, she actually has heard all this before [Iris:] Yeah [Cathy:] and he said oh yes of course, you know, this [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] you don't, you think we've all moved on in things that all [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] were all so much so it's bad enough if they gather them in the gathering them in the barrel like, the barrel bit, but not the sort of [Iris:] Yeah [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] gathering you get to explain what's going to happen, first of all you done [Iris:] And does she take sugar? [Cathy:] Yes [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] Oh... would you like some more? [Cathy:] All I was gonna say that, that if that was you [Jane:] Oh well if there is [Cathy:] if that was it on the agenda that I miss because of being so early bit in the wrong place [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] what I wanted to do is say is what about the publicity can we try and make the very best of this [Robert:] Mhm, mhm [Cathy:] erm you know, because I want to do something more clear that's gonna fit in with everybody else [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] it's an ideal opportunity [Robert:] Yes I mean, erm [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] I can't do anything about it erm... yet because we've only just got it, I mean what, what you thinking of? [Iris:] There's a bar on it until the eighteenth of September isn't there? [Cathy:] Oh is there? [Robert:] Is there? [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] That's when they're, that's when they're launching the full [Iris:] because I mentioned it in Playback because I thought er, trouble is within a and it's just a take on, so I watched what I said, but erm, we mentioned it, we, we didn't see very much about it we just said it's coming up we'll have, we'll let you in for a full details next month so [Robert:] Mm the other thing we might do is erm... is a at the film council and see if he can help us with, I mean it is a film after all whether he's got er particular contacts [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] anything council with media or anything [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] erm [Iris:] yes that would be [Robert:] to say you know, this is, you know, this is arrived as it were, and the tape with full things coming in, in the middle of the month and, what, what kind of thing did you have anything in mind? [Cathy:] No, I, really just to see what, what everyone else was doing, I mean I was thinking of is a little of which she sort of goes into every door, every door in Strathclyde, what a horrible thought, but in fact you know I thought maybe try and do something there, although I don't always get on greatly well with, with the press and publicity people and the women in press and publicity are, are sort of start phrasing once, once the if she says it to me one more time I [Iris:] No but, I will [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] but I mean you know, if [Iris:] you put that piece of dried heather and you light it [Cathy:] Light it, yes it does [Iris:] yes it does [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] See that it does, yeah [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] I think you know, if it's not child abuse or something you know [Jane:] Aha [Cathy:] you know, straight to the heart erm, you know fifteen million children abandoned in Glasgow Green there, you know, she's really terribly taken with mind [Robert:] Not interested [Jane:] I think the answer to that is, I don't think you're in the right job [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] really is, erm quite annoying [Iris:] er, yes [Robert:] fire fighting [Cathy:] but worth trying that, that would certainly help, but I just wondered even if you know sort of local press, I mean presumably they are in their league for doing this [Robert:] Well what, what I suppose we should do is find out what R N I B is doing first, that's what we should find [Cathy:] Yes that would be good, aha [Robert:] and then we can maybe then think about it, okay well I'll, I'll [Cathy:] You come back to us then and [Robert:] Well yeah I mean one by one, maybe if we can hit the Herald and erm The Times and [Cathy:] The Times is always good for replying things [Robert:] and the News and the Scotsman [Cathy:] Aha [Robert:] and erm and erm, our friend at erm Radio [Cathy:] The Daily Record [Robert:] Radio Clyde as well [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] I'm sure the local press will be interested too if you can involve them that would be a great help [Cathy:] I would be very grateful [Iris:] as there will need to be more campaigning before we see the expansionable description in the theatre... and that could be [Robert:] Presumably R and R B would of contacted the big papers but, obviously not the small local ones [Cathy:] to help spread the news, I enclose the material [Robert:] Mm, ah I mean if it was the question I mean I've got that material we've got it, I mean if it was question of sending out, I mean I could do that. Well I'll check with R and R B's press office first just to check before we sort of do things, but I mean it'll be worth, would, would it be worth approaching erm Reporting Scotland and Scotland to [Iris:] I think so [Robert:] and, and Good Morning Scotland yeah all these kind of [Cathy:] Mhm [Jane:] I would definitely think so [Cathy:] and the, the free papers I mean that's the one that goes through all the doors [Iris:] Yes that's the one, that's right, mhm. [Cathy:] You know everybody gets it then. [Robert:] Erm... right... what's the name of that nice man that Good Morning Scotland who Neil [Iris:] Neil [Robert:] is he still there? [Iris:] I think so, yes [Robert:] Oh, cos he did a couple of nice bits for us in the past [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] for I was always keeping up my sleeve for sort of things we might do as opposed to R and M U have done [Iris:] Mhm [Jane:] Yeah [Robert:] this is, that's a sort of reference to sort of [Jane:] Yes [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] get into sort of the voluntary organization [Cathy:] Enter the cut throat staff you know [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] a wrap through R and R B's not a hit [Cathy:] No [Robert:] erm, right okay, well I'll look into that, but I think that serves a good point, right moving back to the agenda, erm, note of meeting fifth of August, erm, anything for those of you who were there, that Cath had to run away, that was one of your crises you were having [Cathy:] Oh god [Robert:] that's right because you came back again [Iris:] Right at the end [Cathy:] It was still it was still, erm quite good that was worth it that day [Iris:] Was it oh good [Cathy:] because that location still on the go [Iris:] Is it? Oh good [Cathy:] that in, yes [Iris:] Mm [Cathy:] lovely location. [Robert:] Erm, we're, we're using the same agenda which is why conf confusion about venue on the front cos I said to my secretary [Jane:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] she said what, what agenda do you want, so I said just the same and so she put the same venue, we tend to alter at the meeting she said [Brian:] yeah [Iris:] Yes I think it says it's Edinburgh in the front and Glasgow on the back or the other way round [Jane:] Mm [Cathy:] That's why I'm late [Robert:] Yes, yes [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] She was still in Glasgow, yeah [Cathy:] Scotland, I didn't know you were having it here [Robert:] Well we felt like a change [Iris:] Yes we felt like a change... why not, come to my lovely office it's lovely isn't it, you can't have it, falls apart when it's moved [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] So, it's the same agenda, so if everybody's okay with that note, I mean most things I think come up [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] I should say that I, I came away from the last meeting with an enormous list of things to do, and I haven't managed to do them all, but they'll emerge as we go through, erm, developments Perth, Perth if inter interrupt me [Jane:] Perth haven't [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Perth happened, it has it's pilot, on, on August the twelfth which Iris supervised [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] mm, you seemed to of, I mean you were a bit disappointed there were less, not so many visually impaired people were there, but they, they were sort of casting the net with council [Iris:] No I wasn't so much disappointed as that I was disappointed that there was only five would be sponsors and that it was we had to give out [Robert:] Oh right [Iris:] about sixty headsets and I thought well who are these people we're getting, I think a lot of them were social workers, so that's fair enough [Jane:] Mm [Iris:] but erm [Robert:] I mean certainly the Perth people seem well pleased and [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] somewhere I think I managed to remember to bring erm, their erm, their minutes from the meeting I didn't go to last week, but you did erm, erm, no I haven't got them, erm, and they've agreed to go ahead in conjunction with I mean everything is kind of steaming up [Iris:] It is going that is [Robert:] erm [Jane:] the monies [Robert:] Well they're, they are still waiting for, for confirmation on money, but they've got quite a lot in the kitty already [Jane:] Mm [Robert:] because the, the society up in Perth, the Perth belong to a society and had this gigantic legacy and they'd agreed to spend it a miniature amount of it on audio description, so from that point of view there they, was sort of fairly well down the line with the money anyway they, they had [Cathy:] still giving money into it [Robert:] erm, they were approaching the District Council weren't they? [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] The Common Good Fund and they, they had you know all I mean you know they had all feelers out for all, all the things, so there are a couple of dates which came up in the last meeting erm for further pilots and then the intention is to just go ahead from [Iris:] Well they, they said at that meeting they'd hoped to have their system for the next one which is the seventeenth October [Robert:] Oh right [Cathy:] Mm [Iris:] because I didn't know whether I was going to have to bring ours up or not because I [Robert:] That's right, yeah because obviously the radio system was [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] used on, on, on the twelfth of August, erm [Jane:] So they're going to have their er infra red [Robert:] so they hoped to have the infra red in by then, yeah [Iris:] They hope to have it by then [Robert:] Yeah, I mean what was nice in, in a way was that er I couldn't go to the last meeting I wasn't well, I had a cold er, what was nice in a way was that David who's the general manager and the general manager from Pitlochry had come in, I mean in a way it was a classic case [Iris:] It was good [Robert:] of having sort of help set something off and then tiptoe away which has been one of my functions, that, that, that it can happen [Iris:] Yes [Jane:] Yes [Cathy:] It sounds good [Robert:] and I felt quite happy especially with a bow tie on, you know, it had been, it had gone you know and in a way we sort of could almost sort of [Cathy:] Can let go of it [Robert:] let go of it [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] now, so it's, I was well pleased with that [Cathy:] In saying that go over, erm obviously I'm all for that, but in terms of sort of holding on to what they're doing I just had written down to mention that you know, we didn't have some sort of mechanism to, to share you know [Robert:] Yes [Cathy:] either up to information on what's happening all this, you know and I'll I know we'll come on to [Iris:] Yes absolutely [Cathy:] that point later [Iris:] Mhm [Cathy:] but we must sort of all pull in together as a situation in Scotland now that which really concerns me and I'd away because it's wonderful to have another theatre, but, erm it's just a bit maybe trying to draw up some method to do that. [Robert:] Is there sort of a team leader of volunteers emerged up there? Or is that, is that still theatre that's doing that? [Jane:] Not yet I think at the moment they're organizing it, yes [Robert:] Yeah, or is it the Society for the Blind or is it sort of between the two? [Jane:] No it's the theatre [Robert:] It's the theatre is it? [Jane:] I think Diane's organizing it all [Robert:] right [Cathy:] Good, that's good it's a theatre [Iris:] Very good it's a theatre [Jane:] She can keep doing it [Robert:] Mm [Jane:] erm [Cathy:] No [Jane:] it all depends whether they want to do it or not [Robert:] Yes [Jane:] sometimes it's easier if you find to pass it on to someone else [Iris:] Oh yes, I mean I just wouldn't of got anywhere with it [Cathy:] Oh aye, no, no [Jane:] but I'm hoping to pass Glasgow onto someone else [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] It's quite interesting that it's the theatre that's doing it, I was on a course last week in Sussex, a management course and there was Bradford theatre companies were there erm, from all the different theatres and they, they organize it and they organize the volunteers [Jane:] Oh really? [Iris:] That is the, that is the [Cathy:] they do the training now [Brian:] How, do they do that through a friends group or? [Cathy:] Yes, friends of the theatre [Brian:] Right [Cathy:] it's quite interesting that they do it [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] Well it's a perfect opportunity for friends to [Cathy:] That's difficult in the setting up stages [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] you know, it's whoever takes it on really [Iris:] I think that's we all, we all visualize it [Jane:] Ours is always [Iris:] I mean the closer it is to the theatre the better [Jane:] Yeah [Iris:] the contacts are and everything and I think that's much better if it can be got down to that eventually [Cathy:] And you're getting people who are interested in the theatre [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] Oh, right from the beginning when we talk to citizens about using their friends of the theatre I nearly fell about you know [Iris:] And yet I have three, I have three good friends of the theatre involved [Cathy:] Do you, ah, mm now [Iris:] one of them's the chairman [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Yes, yes [Cathy:] We have friends of the Lyceum involved [Robert:] There is historically, I mean it maybe the same at the as it is at the Lyceum that there is kind of historically a certain amount of, not exactly friction, but I mean something that has [Iris:] That is [Robert:] sort of got kind of an odd relationship between the friends [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] and the management literally [Iris:] Mm [Cathy:] I suppose they see themselves as [Robert:] I suspect it's the same in the [Cathy:] Yeah [Brian:] The sort of suffering chart [Cathy:] Yeah [Jane:] Aye, aye [Iris:] But I think it's an ideal thing cos people who remember the friends are always interested in the theatre [Cathy:] Yes [Iris:] and that's such a good start [Brian:] And be able to pass on the enthusiasm [Iris:] Yes, Mhm, yeah [Robert:] And we also, I mean it was also felt that you know the friends mechanism of the newsletters and get together [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] yes [Robert:] you know [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] is a way of getting erm [Cathy:] Mhm, spread the word [Robert:] I don't know maybe it may just be come down to sort of the individual theatres I suppose [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] that's the thing [Cathy:] It was quite interesting that all of the theatres and all the theatre staff who were there knew all about audio description [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] Really? [Cathy:] because I spoke to them all about it [Iris:] Yes, mhm [Cathy:] and it was happening in all of their theatres [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] it's just good [Robert:] it's interesting isn't it? [Cathy:] that's good, mhm [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] so, mm... so anyway it's apparently it's kind a way in one of the things that Dough who was there, er with Iris on, on, on the twelfth er spotted was that one of his ex students who now works in educational technology or something equally grand in the Northern College in Dundee is one of the volunteers who have come forward [Iris:] Oh [Cathy:] Mm [Robert:] and with her kind of background in, in writing up training package, packages and things [Iris:] Mm [Cathy:] That's good [Robert:] he has, he's not asked her, he's nobbled her to actually get involved in helping with the compilation of the training package [Cathy:] Training package, mm [Robert:] once she's sort of you know I mean obviously once she's been through the learning process herself, so Doug came away feeling quite pleased that he'd made that contact and he also sort of made one or two, he, he had one or two wise observations I think about the evening, he made one or two new contacts himself and the suggestion and things, he spoke very well about it, at our committee on our last meeting last week [Cathy:] Oh good [Robert:] so eliminate er, it raves about how successful [Cathy:] Good [Robert:] the system is. So that was the sort of a contact for training now. [Cathy:] Good, manage to get the equipment back that the sighted people ran off with? [Iris:] No, erm, well it's, it's not just, they didn't have, it wasn't too much, there's one ear piece which has come off, but I discovered at, my last, I sent myself last week at the assembly hall to how that could happen [Cathy:] Ah [Iris:] because it happened to me, you know the little soft bit? [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] Oh right [Iris:] I was wearing I had the, the stethoscope behind my neck and I took it off for something, I was holding it up to try and get a better and I discovered that one was missing [Cathy:] Was missing [Iris:] and I thought ooh where is it [Cathy:] Oh, all [Iris:] I started to look around and I put my hand up and it was lying at the back of my collar [Jane:] Mhm [Iris:] so it must come off very easily [Jane:] must come off very easily somehow [Iris:] so it, so I'm tempted, not to hand, you know, to take them all off before handing them out [Jane:] Yes [Iris:] if I'm giving a single ear piece, cos they won't be quiet, otherwise they will get lost that way [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] very, very simple [Robert:] Are they terribly expensive? [Iris:] Shouldn't think so, I don't know, I haven't managed to contact, to find out [Robert:] I was just wondering whether it's something, you know, you buy a [Iris:] Yes [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] probably aren't that expensive [Robert:] What happens about hygiene with those as well? [Iris:] Well in, you could clean them with stuff is [Robert:] You can clean them? [Iris:] There's, the thing is they're terribly expensive if you, if you don't exactly have any money [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] which is what the position at the moment [Cathy:] Aha, I see [Robert:] mm [Cathy:] aha, and we will have to think about some sort of contingency fund around to, for replacements whatever that's part of the bigger discussion [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] Well, anyway, yes, sorry, that was [Cathy:] Well [Robert:] Well not for me, no [Iris:] Oh no [Robert:] repairs and renewals are typical are a lot [Brian:] Mm... [Robert:] What's the latest from Glasgow then? [Iris:] The latest from Glasgow is the system is starting up again, we're doing the first one on the twenty fourth of September erm, the Theatre Royal had, we're doing three [Robert:] Are these, these dates, erm sixth November, fourteenth November? [Iris:] Yes, sixth November, fourteenth November, what's that? [Robert:] And the fifth of December, that's the Theatre Royal for Witches [Iris:] It's sixteenth, I didn't think afterwards, I didn't bring it, wait a minute, sixth, yes, sixth is the Witches cos that's a matinee and ten thirty in the morning [Robert:] Ten A M [Cathy:] Well done [Iris:] schools which we hope erm they all come [Cathy:] well done [Iris:] that's the that's right [Jane:] Yes, mm [Iris:] Then the fifth of December is on [Robert:] That's all, that's [Iris:] oh yes the fourteen of November that's again a Saturday night, er four P M I, I should think we'd probably have good people going, [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] Right, I haven't done anything about the at all [Iris:] They're trying, encouraging to Cathy to show some interest [Cathy:] Oh yes I have [Iris:] which is more than I have [Cathy:] and I laid back so that the fashion might I was coming to do all again sort of thing, you know, I mean they suddenly announced who I really I was seeing her, because I wasn't happy about the publicity, the way it had described audio description I didn't think it was good and Alex was unhappy about the way they were describing some language things, which cos they're not doing erm, and we just went in and he just said right just, erm... well I've kept you some seats for a performance on the sixteenth of September, this was about the [Iris:] Oh aye, twenty fourth of August or something [Cathy:] Aha, you know, since a week goes on and erm and that's it, aha, not ring me up and say hi there we're thinking of [Robert:] So if you hadn't happened to of gone you know [Cathy:] Aha, so if I hadn't haven't, goodness knows, aha, so I mean we, I had a chat with Iris obviously, but it just wasn't on, with other commitments and different things, it was in the afternoon [Iris:] Apart from anything else, we, we don't just go to the theatre we have, we really tend to wait to be invited [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] erm, now, and erm, anyway I refused to say anything about the until I could see physically they have rebuilt it, I mean I won't even say yes we'll do it if you do it, I'm going to say you do it and we'll give you a description, because there's no way I'm going to go into that position again, no [Robert:] Yeah, just to, to fill Brian in with that. They had a great deal of trouble [Iris:] Mm we hadn't done anything since they rebuilt the St Paul's Theatre [Brian:] Mm [Iris:] and they assured us there would be a bit incorporated for audio description, so what it was, was half of us entrance into the lighted sound box, cut off, it was a, sort of triangular, but erm, to see out the window... [Jane:] This is good, yeah [Iris:] I, standing on my tiptoes I couldn't see out the window to, to look out to the stage erm, and there was a huge step up, it was about that, which was great for people's bad backs and if you got up on that, erm then you sat on top of a very high cocktail chair, in fact one of our people had to kneel on top of the high cocktail chair, to look, to see down, over the window, down to the stage and they didn't give us a sound feed which would sound familiar [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] Yes it does [Iris:] because there's no sound feed and altogether, oh yes, for the second, we, we did two plays and for the second one, they didn't produce a script [Jane:] No [Iris:] so I described them how to do it, perched on our knees, looking down, no sound without a script, it was just absolutely ludicrous [Robert:] Yeah, it's exactly that kind of experience that I think has got me thinking about what I was saying before you came, well before we were just doing the coffee, about the idea of actually starting to draw, well I was calling contracts, but probably it's more better called agreements, about you know, the theatre will do this, we will do that and [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] you know, maybe even have cut-off dates so that if there isn't, you know, a script by such and such a date then we will need to figure out what these dates were, but this is why got more on board [Brian:] Over the [Robert:] to give the theatre side more of [Brian:] The sort of he's doing more than me [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] the sort of contracts you would, you know, I mean, you, you have with producers anyway managements [Brian:] Mm [Robert:] and, and artists and things that you know, we could maybe, I don't want to make it, you know a twenty five page [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] you know a legal document, but I mean maybe we can reach some sort of middle ground that would be a kind of guidelines and [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] I mean once [Brian:] The only thing I can see there is the different venues will obviously will have different, differences to cope with that [Iris:] Of course, of course, yeah [Robert:] Well that's something we would obviously have to sort of, I mean maybe it's something where... you know I mean with the there's a regularity about it now [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] Mm, yes [Robert:] which I suppose it might be difficult to see what had to be arranged for that with you there's a regularity, but you know the Trone is obviously a one-offish basis, I mean we are talking a certain one of [Iris:] There are certain basics, there are certain basics [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] that if they're not there we can't do [Robert:] You can't do it [Cathy:] That's right [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] and the theatre must know when you're actually going to see the, the show [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] because you've got to arrange seats [Jane:] Mm, yes [Cathy:] That's right [Iris:] So if the, a script there, at least when you're there [Robert:] Mhm [Iris:] erm [Cathy:] You see the message had obviously got through because that [Iris:] At the latest [Cathy:] day he just handed me script [Iris:] Yeah [Cathy:] handed me it but even then [Iris:] that's all you need when you turn up and forget the [Cathy:] I said [Iris:] script that's enough [Cathy:] Well I don't I said, I said I'll take it, but I said that I really don't, I mean I said it's really, I said I've explained very carefully it's Iris who had all that yes, ah, but here's a script, so you see, that had at least got through [Iris:] That got through [Cathy:] but I think what we need to do is go down, well Iris and I will go down there, make arrangements will go down, go down the office [Robert:] And talk it through [Cathy:] and will have, have, a look [Jane:] Yes [Cathy:] have, Iris can have another look, but erm, but it's incredible because I mean that's, that really was [Iris:] It really was it was [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] worse than what I thought [Robert:] Sorry what I was gonna suggest on that in a way this is kind of preempting something else, you know, the, the bit on the agenda for it, I always put them in its back, back together when I write, erm [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] yes, yes maybe you and I can sit down [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] and, and kind of erm some time one afternoon or something and kind of go through these things [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] erm or maybe I'll consider you two down, you know as the describing side [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] the theatre side and just say [Cathy:] Yes that might in fact be practical in [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] and then sort of come up [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] with, with a draft if you like and then we can talk it round, you know [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] just so that we can try and work it out, so that you know if we are going to, to go to new theatres like, you know, I think the New Travellers is going to be interested [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] but obviously it's pretty busy now but you know we can go to them and say this is what we found, you know [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] as you say [Iris:] it's all [Robert:] every theatre is going to be different, but I think there is a basics [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] there are basics [Iris:] We've already been along there [Cathy:] Have you? Oh [Robert:] Have they? Right, well you're already ahead of me in that case [Iris:] the Friday night as to look at different things [Robert:] I mean I knew they wouldn't be [Cathy:] The only thing is I would hope it would be, it would be very simple and basic and nice [Robert:] Well that's what worries me is [Cathy:] because I don't want to put them off either, I mean if we've got to the [Jane:] Oh no [Cathy:] and said this is what you do, they would of heaved us straight out the door [Robert:] Yes I think that's something we would have to kind of balance up is, is that kind of making [Cathy:] Can I no, not, not telling them what to do [Brian:] No this is, this is what we need and this is what [Robert:] you need [Brian:] you need and [Cathy:] Yes, yes this is what we're giving even though [Brian:] yeah, yeah, coming up round to [Robert:] Yeah and I suppose it's always going to be up for sort of negotiation, I mean I [Cathy:] Oh [Robert:] have this sort of vision [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] you know of, of maybe you know a three or four page thing with maybe different, you know different sheets and, and you know sort of say well now we need to do this, can you do that or shall we bring ours you know [Cathy:] Oh yes, that's right [Iris:] yes [Robert:] and, and sort of when can we have a script you know and you write it down and take thirty per cent of it, or whatever you know, erm, I mean the other thing that Alex has drawn er has drawn up for sign language is this sort of flow chart er, with dates and things working backwards from the event, saying you know we need this by two weeks beforehand we need it back [Cathy:] You've got to book in yes, yes you have [Robert:] and, and I was wondering if that might kind of [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] the thing, I mean again it's, it's different, but [Iris:] I don't think so I think [Cathy:] If it's any consolation they totally ignore that [Robert:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] I don't really, I don't really think it's that that's pinning people down and I think this theatre will be slightly different. [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] Mhm [Iris:] Because when some plays run for two weeks [Cathy:] But until there's erm, that's right, I [Iris:] and some for three weeks [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] and you wouldn't have the opportunity to go along [Iris:] No [Cathy:] and I think, I think the difficulty with that is until you know it, as one person said to Alex in front of me ah well, we, we did exactly what you required and you never brought any audience, there was no audience, do you remember that? [Iris:] That was really embarrassing [Jane:] Did he really? [Cathy:] Now I mean that, that can happen to us, you know that can happen to us [Iris:] Oh yes yes [Cathy:] ag again that's why I don't want you to be heavy cos I don't want say to say oh you know you've brought us you know, fifteen pages and we worked our way through it and then you know at the end of the day we do all of it, yeah [Iris:] Where's your audiences? [Robert:] Yes, yeah [Cathy:] I think we'll really have to be cautious and that one [Jane:] That happened on Saturday [Iris:] Mhm [Cathy:] I agree that there are certain things like the sound coming into the might be able to actually see that real smart [Iris:] Yes [Cathy:] but I mean other than that, I, I, I'd like to be dead cautious about that, I, I still think it's early days, I know we've made a great success, but it's early days. [Iris:] And we can't guarantee an, an audience, we can never guarantee an audience [Cathy:] No and there's still some theatre peo no we can't and there's still some theatre people don't want us [Iris:] of people [Jane:] That's right... can you tell me, see, there, this list, are any of these please go touring to other theatres? That's helpful for us to know because maybe even would want to take one of them for instance, that's already been described [Iris:] Mhm... [Robert:] Yes, that's us moving onto Edinburgh now mate [Jane:] Now, oh sorry aye we did get on together [Robert:] I thought we might [Brian:] Inverness [Jane:] Yes [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] Yes it might, you know [Jane:] I've got a potential describing Inverness I met her on the train the other day, a friend of my, he says [Iris:] Aye [Jane:] asks that [Brian:] And Aberdeen still very gracious [Jane:] Yes, he would be very good in there [Cathy:] Aberdeen still there [speaker002:] ... [Jane:] Oh [Robert:] That's January, right [Jane:] There's Tooting [Robert:] well February I suppose, by the time it goes to long [Brian:] Well the theory was it was even cur His Majesty's Aberdeen and er Theatre Royal, but I don't have any of them confront [Jane:] Mhm [Brian:] and we also booked Tour of the Price, Arthur Miller [Jane:] Right [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] So there might be some touring in the new year? [Iris:] And they're touring after they've [Brian:] After the new year, yeah [Iris:] been here? [Brian:] after, after the shows, yeah [Jane:] That'll be, that'll be [Cathy:] That's good [Jane:] We're gonna start to send something because we're gonna have to know that in advance because the describers have to be asked if they will be will they be able to travel? [Robert:] Prepared to travel [Cathy:] Them to do it [Robert:] yes and that, that in a way leads me on to the next party, if we're gonna have an agreement between this group or, you know, the other group [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] bit of this group and, and the theatre, the, the next bit is, is an agreement with the describers about who's doing what [Jane:] Yes, yes [Robert:] and you know, okay, you're gonna do this show or act three of this show on the twenty third of January and it's going to, that particularly, what not, yeah, erm [Cathy:] Still find a describer who are prepared [Brian:] Or if it was [Cathy:] to travel [Brian:] if we were going through to Glasgow describers to [Robert:] Said to do it in reverse [Brian:] get [Jane:] You could perhaps get in Edinburgh if they were all busy [Brian:] what's it here or er whatever or even pick up notes from Edinburgh people [Jane:] Yes [Robert:] Yeah, I mean it's that kind of co-ordination, yeah, to get that, to get that, right [Jane:] Today a co-ordination job that is [Brian:] Can I tag a wee bit onto that? how about putting smaller theatre companies like communicado targeting certain [Robert:] Yes [Brian:] on the tour [Robert:] well we're sort of trying an experiment Iris is trying an experiment [Brian:] Communicado, erm [Robert:] seven, eighty four, one [Brian:] Seven, eighty four, one [Robert:] Yes, yes, I mean we've, we've sort of talked about it but not done very much about it, Communicado of course is based on the Lyceum which is something which is worth knowing, erm [Brian:] Because at the moment I mean they're going into some venues out like the Traverse, who were thinking of doing it anyway, but [Robert:] Yeah, yes, I mean the situation is yes we have kind of thought about it, we haven't actually done it [Brian:] Right [Robert:] that's what it comes down to [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] I mean the experiment that's coming up is, is the one week only [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] emergence of the Oxford stage company at the moment [Iris:] I personally think with these smaller of the theat of the theatre companies who spend their life touring more or less [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] it would be handy for them to get [Jane:] Yes [Iris:] their own audio describer [Cathy:] Yes, remember [Iris:] who would travel with them [Robert:] With a portable, with a radio systems plug in [Iris:] Yeah [Brian:] That would make sense [Iris:] That really would because I mean they, they [Brian:] for the preparation [Iris:] it's much easier if they have somebody attached to them [Jane:] Yeah [Cathy:] Of course they would [Jane:] they know the play, they know the er act they know the whole thing [Robert:] I mean this, this get mentioned somewhere along the line of, of you know maybe... you know, I mean God knows how you would fund a [Cathy:] I know [Robert:] but you know, whether it would be something like, you know [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] the A, one of the A S Ns would of additional responsibility, it wouldn't be absolutely every performance [Cathy:] You can give the back up team though, you can get people to hand out leaflets and that sort of thing [Robert:] You can get [Jane:] It may well be a volunteer who's willing to be [Robert:] within the group [Jane:] within, within the group, you know, or volunteer not attached to the [Robert:] who's not a part, yeah [Jane:] the company who's willing to come [Cathy:] Mhm, yes, yes just to go along [Robert:] I mean you'd need to look at the touring schedules and things [Jane:] Yes [Robert:] Maybe what we should do actually is before too long because of the planning involved is actually approach Communicado [Brian:] Pull, pull [Cathy:] yeah [Robert:] to just say you know, what are you doing sort of [Cathy:] Mhm [Jane:] yeah [Robert:] doing next year for a tour, what touring plans have you got [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] and see if there's any, anything in that, cos you wouldn't be looking at doing every single village hall [Cathy:] No [Brian:] No [Robert:] but you, you could sort of [Jane:] Mm [Robert:] try them. You see there's a difference as well [Cathy:] Mm, if they had someone with them, it wouldn't be a problem [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] I'm sure it's like joining the circus I wouldn't of thought you'd have a problem getting involved in it [Iris:] That's right, I wouldn't [Cathy:] you'd be delighted to go for [Robert:] mm, well it depends on the touring pattern as well because I mean something like Communicado can sort of kind of do a week here, or a fortnight somewhere [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] another group shown can literally doing one night stands [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] around the country, then you know, did sort of think about that, I suppose Communicado can as well [Brian:] is there is there a pulling o off people's schedules just now, people sort of central sort of information point [Iris:] There isn't [Jane:] No [Robert:] That's something that we're needing [Iris:] That's the problem [Robert:] that's one of the things we're, we're trying to identify of [Iris:] That's what we do need, yes [Robert:] a way of doing that [Brian:] Right [Robert:] but I mean certainly I think it'll be worth erm [Iris:] Yeah [Robert:] looking at the Communicado the touring idea [Iris:] Erm, I, I did the same thing the tag as I said earlier erm I suggested to them that perhaps as they went out so much perhaps one the company would do it, they sounded quite enthusiastic [Robert:] Right [Cathy:] Yes [Iris:] and one of the girls who I was speaking to, oh I'd like to do that, she couldn't for the, the one that we're doing [Jane:] No [Iris:] but erm I, I mean I, they obviously didn't say oh no that'll be a rotten idea, so [Jane:] Oh no [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] I think they might look kindly on it [Robert:] Yeah, oh we should explore that as, you know, erm... I mean how far have do people like Communicado and erm, yes so if we went to them sort of fairly soon we'd [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] have a good idea of what they were doing next, next summer or whatever, yeah... right... right, otherwise Edinburgh, erm everything is in place for the festival descriptions, well everything's in place [LAUGHTER] like curtain up for the Lyceum description, last weekend [Iris:] Yes, yes [Robert:] Iris and I standing in the [Iris:] where were you and I thought he's not, he [LAUGHTER] so what's the position in the future, is it, are we going to have to go through that every time or? [Robert:] No, no, no, no [Iris:] Or that [Robert:] Is that in though? [Brian:] Now that we know [Iris:] I must admit I was [Brian:] now that we know what the problem is, we get, we're on top of it. [Iris:] I was seething at your sign person because I thought we have no way of doing this for about at least two months [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] why the night before, did, was I told oh you'll need an amplifier and she's going to bring in one from her home, her own one in tomorrow morning, I thought I didn't spring it in last week, anything and then that day when I discovered it still wasn't working I just couldn't believe it [Cathy:] Oh it's [Iris:] I mean I said to Shaun on a Friday night we'd better decide this, otherwise there's no point in us coming through tomorrow mate, we might as well stay at home and go to the football or something [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] so [Robert:] That's it now is it? [Iris:] That's it [Robert:] Yeah, put it on top of that one there [Iris:] Good, great [Brian:] Erm [Robert:] Have a bit of trust [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] I have, that was my job [Cathy:] You're alright on the night, I'm sure you've heard that expression [Robert:] Quite [Iris:] Oh yes, as they were filming at the Lyceum last week they were, it were a good programme I can tell you [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] [Brian:] [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] [LAUGHTER] Anyway that, that the last thing, the only thing is of course we've missed the, the publication date for your [Robert:] For the season [Iris:] for the season [Brian:] Yeah [Iris:] which is a pity [Brian:] yeah, yeah [Robert:] Well that's of a, one of those things. The erm, we did invite Ingy to come to this meeting just to report about the festival things, but er she, when I saw her, down at the Lyceum, she was sort of doubtful, erm just because you know [Iris:] Yeah [Robert:] it's still the first one, she's got a billion things to do, we'll obviously speak to her in the autumn, erm [Cathy:] Mm, that's good yeah [Robert:] there wasn't anybody at the assembly hall for the National Theatre, well [Jane:] I really was disappointed in that, yeah [Robert:] No, no blind consumers as it were so that was a disappointment [Jane:] that was too bad [Robert:] I mean and, and I mean I turned up about half an hour before the end and, and Iris really was looking a, I, I can confirm a picture of dejection [Iris:] Yeah [Cathy:] That's very sad [Iris:] I, I, I thought it was a great pity because I mean it's er a major thing upsetting [Brian:] Mm [Robert:] One reason I was disappointed is because what it says in these minutes, Robert's people reported they'd been speaking to the R and Abbey Leisure Service in London that had been considerable interest in the Edinburgh Festival Programme and in everything [Iris:] Mm, yes [Robert:] ranging from when I went to Leeds to that seminar and there were people excited about the Festival and you know, two weeks before the Festival speaking to Jane in London, said oh we've had a lot of you know and I said well I'll get back to you in September and tell you [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] and she said well I'll be able to tell you how many enquiries we've had and so you know, you were expecting something you know [Cathy:] Nobody's there, mm [Iris:] Well at the Lyceum, there was one lady from the South [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] about [Robert:] Yes I remember you saying about [Iris:] that they, just the others are all local, so at least there was one Festival visitor proper [Cathy:] That's good yes [Iris:] erm and I know they sold about five or six tickets at least next week [Robert:] Next week [Iris:] for this the Church Hill, but I don't know where they're from, I don't know if they're local people or from the Festival [Cathy:] Aha, I wonder how [Robert:] One thing that, that we did spend, I mean, I don't know the Festival seems to come in an awful rush this time I suppose cos, cos [Cathy:] Oh it does [Robert:] my holiday was later as usual and longer so, you know and there was a couple of other things not related to this which I'd thought of doing and it's sort of they evaporated, but erm, we did spend time talking to Ingy earlier in the year, you know, about publicity and I gave her lists of well such as things obvious things like Playback and Newsbeat [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] and Newsbeat dinner piece and I expect you did as well, erm but you know, she was, she was talking about contacts and things like Good Morning Scotland and all of the rest of it and I don't think any of that kind of happened [Iris:] Mm [Jane:] Mm [Robert:] er I mean I'm not sort of trying to point the finger at her, but [Iris:] No, because it may well be that they said oh we've covered audio description before, nothing new [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] Yeah, that's right [Iris:] we were covering some this morning or something [Jane:] Yes [Robert:] Yes exactly and events overtakes things and, and, and whatnot. [Iris:] I tell you what I was quite disappointed as that, there was no, didn't seem to be a couple of stair up in the box office either the Lyceum I could see or there's not that there's [Robert:] On the day [Iris:] assembly hall has a, has a thing, but [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] erm no I mean it's, it's good to see them on they were, they, the programme on, on the fourth of November will be audio described [Cathy:] Yeah [Robert:] Yes [Brian:] Mhm [Iris:] for the visually impaired, you know that kind of thing somebody booking their seat will say oh Aunty Mary might be interested. [Cathy:] Aha [Robert:] That was the other thing I think about the Festival programme which I think was a bit embarrassed about is the fact that all that information is in such teeny tiny writing [Jane:] That's right [Iris:] Yes, yes [Robert:] which is difficult for me with my [Jane:] Yes [Iris:] Difficult for anybody [Robert:] okay sight to read you know, my, my recently tested sight, and erm [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] oh, er let alone anybody [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] Most [Jane:] Yes he went and got glasses, yeah [LAUGHTER] [Brian:] As a result of your training er [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] Really, [LAUGHTER] [Brian:] session [Iris:] But that's, that, that, that is the bigger thing [Robert:] So you know, the sight's something else, I don't I don't know, what I'm wondering is what, you know, what, you know [Iris:] Can do it [Robert:] what Ingy is gonna come back you know [Iris:] Yes, er [Robert:] in a month's time and whenever she comes [Iris:] Yes [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] to, to, to a meeting for the group for next year, you know, she's gonna say well you know we tried it and nobody came [Iris:] That's right [Robert:] we're not doing it again, I don't think she will, but I mean I think we need to be sort of positive about how we are going to sort of [Iris:] Well I, I erm [Robert:] build it on [Iris:] put a, put a very strong piece in Playback this month about audio description and seeing that, it, you know, how disappointed it is for how, I've, I've explained how much work we've put into er, er [Robert:] Yeah, mm [Iris:] description and that if people er don't take it up [Cathy:] Yes [Iris:] then it's likely to fall apart, because the volunteers are going to give up [Jane:] Mm [Robert:] That's right [Iris:] they'll, they'll see us, a play four times and then go along and no one comes to hear the description [Jane:] That's right [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] so, erm I hope that, that might make few people visit, but then as I said also in it, you can't force people to go to the theatre if they don't want to [Robert:] Oh you can't you, you, that's what we we're saying this morning [Iris:] That's right [Jane:] Mm [Robert:] you can take you know horses to water, but [Iris:] Horses to water, mm [Robert:] you can't get them to drink it [Brian:] Is that [Cathy:] Yeah, but I think some works one is transport and I said this before to you [Iris:] Oh yes, very much, yes [Cathy:] and this is the difficulty, I'll, I'll take this away and see what I can do with it, I mean there's that East End thing, you know, that arts erm you know [Robert:] Yes, one [Cathy:] and the shop mobilities well you know [Iris:] Mhm [Cathy:] and I'm just wondering if maybe, maybe we will just have to do a wee bit of work and try and get something on the go to see if somebody will [Iris:] Yes [Cathy:] accompany, I don't know that I can offer transport because it's not a very easy thing you know, and we need to try and do, but [Iris:] Well we now have started this concert and theatre goers group in Glasgow and, and the [Cathy:] Yes, well this is what I was going to [Robert:] Yes, that's the other side of the that's right [Iris:] They've actually started now, they've got a committee, of course I don't know how long it will take them to get going for them, but [Cathy:] Yes, oh God [Iris:] you see they likely can get a grant from the Society now that they're [Cathy:] Exactly [Iris:] a proper group and er I don't know how they can arrange transport, but I think that's what they're planning to do. [Robert:] Well it's, do you still have that [Cathy:] It'll be worth [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] transport subsidy schemes, is that still work? [Brian:] Mhm [Cathy:] Oh, oh, oh [Robert:] This is some well [Iris:] That's right, yes [Brian:] Mhm [Robert:] how does it work? Does it still [Brian:] Erm, you've got to go over a certain size to get... a portion of the fee of paid [Cathy:] Mm [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] Mm [Brian:] this is from the Arts Council? [Cathy:] I see, that, that, it's very complicated for blind people [Robert:] It's complicated for anybody [Brian:] Anybody [Robert:] Absolutely [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] ludicrous, impossible to try and organize [Iris:] Ah [Robert:] but then [Cathy:] We've got groups of volunteers who take people to theatre as well as art [Iris:] Ah, ha [Robert:] I think the other side of the Festival as well, you mustn't lose track of, is that the Festival [Cathy:] Yes, it's, I could of brought people through, I should of been able to [Robert:] the Festival also chooses its own plays, I mean the Festival choose those three plays and whether they were the best three plays to choose [Cathy:] Mm, yes, aha [Robert:] you know, but you would of thought the National Theatre, but I mean it's, you know [Cathy:] I know [Robert:] the Spanish play in England [Cathy:] Yeah [Robert:] but you know [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] I don't know, it's difficult to know [Cathy:] Well I don't know, I feel quite guilty because I think maybe I could of done a bit more, but I'll certainly take it away now and I'll have a chat with some of the [Iris:] Mhm [Cathy:] maybe meet Alan together rather than separately [Iris:] Yes [Cathy:] cos he doesn't, you know, original Council but, but I think we should of, could look inside and I [Robert:] I think then [Cathy:] could of brought a group of people [Robert:] Yes, I think the other side of Iris's point about the theatre and concert goers club, is quite an interesting idea [Cathy:] Yes [Robert:] to, to run alongside audio description groups, you could be [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] and this is something I could change my hands slightly about and come back and speak to you [LAUGHTER] [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] for example about, because you know one of the things that I've thought about for quite a long time is the idea of encouraging voluntary organizations, concerned with the disability to get more interested in the arts and that's obviously what Mecca is [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] I thought of Hugh being up in Perth [Cathy:] Mhm [Iris:] Yeah [Robert:] er with the Spastics is [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] taking people to arts events and getting things that way [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] so it's not a way of reaching people with a disability and, you know, that might be that kind of [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] you're talking about, might be one way of getting [Cathy:] I feel sure if you offer to pick people up and take them home again, you'll be, you'll be swamped you won't know what to do with them [Iris:] Absolutely it makes such a lot of difference that's right, yes [Cathy:] It really does and can you blame people [Iris:] No [Cathy:] I mean I've just come through there and I had a car today and a girl was telling me her father erm opened his door last week er cataract and the, the wife, the granny blind too and there, the man from the water board was just going to switch off your water, just okay if I check your taps, three hundred pounds out the house [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] now, you know, they've been watching them, they know they're a blind couple, I mean blind people feel that vulnerable that you're asking them to go [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] Yes [Cathy:] out so you just, so maybe just, maybe, I've taken a slight hard line to say no, people have got to make a wee bit effort too, but maybe in fact [Iris:] Maybe they do need the encouragement [Cathy:] to go back, because to do this to get to this stage and find we're not getting our audiences then, if that's the answer we'll just have to find the solution. [Robert:] Mm [Brian:] Is there not two separate problems that we have to find them first and then the, then worrying about getting people to the theatre [Cathy:] Well I think we can find them through Playback in cases like that [Iris:] Yes, yes [Cathy:] I mean if places like that, I mean if you set, I mean she knows this [Robert:] If you were to press this thing [Cathy:] if you say in Playback there is an added night performance [Robert:] there will be a bus [Cathy:] you might get a phone call, if you say there's an performance [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] you know if you're in this area or that area we'll pick you up and take you home and the phone just doesn't stop ringing [Robert:] Yeah, there's a bus going [Iris:] You got, yeah [Jane:] Yes [Cathy:] so I think there's a way of getting the blind people [Jane:] Yeah [Iris:] Yes I think there is [Cathy:] but it's, it's just this all for a transport [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] Right [Cathy:] and what you've got to be very careful, cos you can't offer them and not come up with the goods [Iris:] Mhm [Cathy:] so it's a bit trying to set up a system [Robert:] It's got to be consistent as well [Iris:] Yes [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] Mm, but I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure we can do more there, you know, [Iris:] Oh yes [Robert:] I, I did briefly manage from [Iris:] I think so, of [Robert:] mention this [Iris:] of transport you'll get people [Robert:] to, to from art link, erm to do the escort service and they, they, they do it, I mean [Cathy:] Oh yes [Robert:] what he, he's moving, he's moving actually a bit more towards the East End model in Glasgow [Cathy:] Is he? Aha [Robert:] er towards actually, you know, for example he is targeting West and so on, but he's moving away from being a completely response lead [Iris:] Mhm [Robert:] so that, you know they sit in the office [Iris:] Right [Robert:] and people phone up to ask being a bit more kind of pro active about it [Iris:] Yes [Cathy:] Oh I see, right [Robert:] and his response when, you're doing the audio description as well, you know if the Society for the Blind wants to organize, I mean I mean you can organize every kind of thing why does it have to involve us? But I mean I'm sure there's a sort of, there could be a meeting of, of the sort of ways there somewhere [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] erm [Cathy:] If we or organize the transport will you supply the volunteers? [Robert:] Yeah, I mean there could be a way of sort of coming together [Brian:] Mm [Robert:] so maybe that's another area, and that's a meeting we could set up quite easily with, well with Clare who runs it, and erm [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] with er in Glasgow and that's [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] whose name I can't remember [Cathy:] neither can I [Robert:] er... can't remember Debbie [Cathy:] I can't remember the guy's name either [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] [LAUGHTER] It doesn't matter [Robert:] and brought these, the bloke, so. So [Cathy:] Right, okay [Robert:] Brampton is happening is it? [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] Jane the last one [Jane:] we're talking of Brampton [Robert:] the Lyceum [Jane:] Yeah [Iris:] Is it, what is it definite, I mean as a regular or just the one off or what? [Jane:] As a regular monthly thing [Iris:] Mhm, good, that's going to happen [Jane:] when, when, oh sorry [Robert:] I was going to, one of the, the many things that I went to away last meeting with was, was the idea of, that I've missed it this time for Playback is a list, a listings kind of mechanism, so obviously this is the first one [Jane:] Yeah [Robert:] erm, I was also going to use, erm, the erm R I B kind of format that they use for their listings you know for their leisure lists [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] just because it's the style [Jane:] Yeah [Robert:] just go and swipe that [Cathy:] Mm [Jane:] Mhm [Robert:] erm, so it'll be useful to have the Brampton dates [Jane:] Dates [Robert:] erm [Jane:] I haven't got them [Robert:] and this, is something I would need to [Jane:] The, the thing is that I've been concerned for some time when it's finally helped,f f found for next month, because [Robert:] because we've got three things happening on one night [Jane:] the twenty fourth, yes, of September [Cathy:] Yes [Jane:] three, three separate, I mean, if people from sometimes come through to Edinburgh [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] people sometimes come to Glasgow and either of them could go up to Stirling [Robert:] Yeah [Iris:] That's right [Jane:] Three in the one night I think is just [Robert:] Yeah I feel guilty, I feel guilty about the Stirling one, but when I arranged [Cathy:] It's very silly [Robert:] the Stirling date with the woman from the Oxford Stage Companies in time with Robert, it was the beginning of the summer in June or something like that [Jane:] Yes [Robert:] and I suppose I should of gone off the Thursday night [Jane:] it's difficult, cos yeah, the Thursday night was a bad night, any other night might of been better... [Robert:] but erm [Cathy:] I'm worried about that because we had a very bad experience in Stirling before so [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] we really don't need it [Robert:] I tried to see Liz about that last week, but that's anyway, but, but [Jane:] Yes [Robert:] to get back to the scheduling I mean that's something we obviously need to think about [Jane:] Mhm [Iris:] I've got Brampton theatre dates, I'll copy that, you can have that if you want [Jane:] Oh great [Robert:] Erm [Jane:] what is it a Thursday as well? [Cathy:] No Saturday matinee [Jane:] Oh that's terrific [Iris:] That is good [Cathy:] Mhm so that's definitely on, yes [Jane:] That's ideal, yes [Robert:] So I think that's something [Brian:] Just a quick [Robert:] to think about [Jane:] You see I think that's, what, what is like the [Cathy:] They don't tie up with you [Brian:] No, there okay, no not at all [Cathy:] they don't tie up with you so you're alright. [Robert:] Yes, so we need to sort of keep on top of that one and I'm not really sure until we do get our co-ordinator how we cope [Cathy:] Well, well we see that's, that's why and, and I did seem to go about, I don't Iris's job, but I really wanted to raise that this time, we really have to have someone very, very quickly to protest, call it what you like [Jane:] Yeah [Cathy:] but we're gonna have to have somebody [Robert:] Just to programme it [Cathy:] because already it's going on, you can see that. [Robert:] Well [Iris:] Do we want somebody who will just do, cos I've got, I mean I can get somebody just to do that if that's all you want done, that could be done easily [Robert:] Mm [Iris:] in braille or print or braille and print or anything you like, put all the lists together [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] Can I say I think that's like the, the door closing and the horse gone, you know [Iris:] Mm [Robert:] Before that [Cathy:] it's the bit before that [Iris:] Yeah I thought [Cathy:] unfortunately and I know and that's how much complicated bit [Iris:] Yes it is [Cathy:] and that's can I phoning round everybody keeping tabs, what are you planning over the next three months, aha [Iris:] That's right [Robert:] Would it be worth having I mean [Iris:] I could certainly get all those lists [Cathy:] You know what I mean, I mean that would and that, and that still necessary that's, that's as well as that [Robert:] Would it be worth actually having a, having a sort of a planning meeting, say you know for the first half hour of one of these meetings, the next one say that we have, you know, a wall planner, you know, a chart and [Iris:] Yeah [Robert:] you know sort of say this is [Jane:] But is not, I mean it's too late at the moment because both the Citizen and [Cathy:] It's too late [Jane:] and the Lyceum have organized it [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] their dates erm... so happens as far as I can see only the twenty fourth of September [Robert:] Is appropriate [Cathy:] Is the one [Jane:] I don't know about the, the after the New Year, but that's very lucky that one [Robert:] Cos the other problem is Christmas is one that which is coming off [Jane:] Christmas yeah, aha [Cathy:] Yeah [Jane:] well I don't think it matters so much in with the [Iris:] People [Jane:] on same date because people are like, more likely to go to their own local pantomime aren't they? [Cathy:] They all go don't they, yeah... [Iris:] Mm [Cathy:] Oh children [Robert:] So there is a problem about [Cathy:] you need to watch about children this year because, erm, because of the children at the Royal Blind School [Jane:] Oh yes [Cathy:] and maybe you know from Glasgow whatever [Jane:] the absolutely nothing they've got it, none of the audience paid things. [Robert:] I remember when I first went to see Mrs [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] came over [Robert:] I don't think, is Mrs still there? [Cathy:] Yes, aha [Robert:] She wasn't very keen [Jane:] No she's not very keen [Robert:] this was like three years ago [Brian:] Yeah [Cathy:] Ah, it's not terribly blind is it? [Jane:] She is not [Brian:] This is [Cathy:] the children will be out of school, they might even be sighted people. [Jane:] Romeo and Juliet I mean it couldn't of been a better thing for school children [Cathy:] Wonderful that [Robert:] Yeah, that was planned that we [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] Yes exactly [Jane:] Exactly and we went to the school, we told them all about it, we phoned the school, we kept saying [Cathy:] Not even the older children? [Jane:] it's going to be on, nobody, nobody, not one person. Oh no, no, but I'm sure the children didn't even get [Cathy:] Because at least all schools have wonderful [Jane:] to hear about it [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] That's a shame you know, because that's the ideal isn't it, remember those wee titchy things at four [Iris:] That's right [Cathy:] all my staff were crying which didn't help [LAUGHTER] had to keep dragging them off to the toilet, they'd never seen blind children you see they'd all seen adults it's fine to be blind to be an adult, but these wee titchy things and there's a little boy saying, you know I was really looking forward to this, this is really exciting, totally blind ooh [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] but I mean it was so good, because remember the letter we got from the wee boy with the drawing? [Iris:] That's right [Cathy:] Is this great big painting, a mass of colours, you know, but a wonderful time, cos it's the children you need [Robert:] Mm [Cathy:] the children are tomorrow's audience [Iris:] That's right, yes [Jane:] That's right, yes [Cathy:] I'm very disappointed with that [Jane:] if you get the children, yes, not one thing [Cathy:] Can you not bypass Mrs? [Iris:] No you're joking [Jane:] No [Cathy:] Surely you can bypass if you think [Iris:] Seems to be our fault if it's anything to do with the Society she doesn't want to know [Cathy:] Of course, try Jim who'd do it [Iris:] He's fine, he thinks it's a good idea [Cathy:] Oh yes [Iris:] he'll certainly put the information [Cathy:] he'll maybe do a job by, by putting [Iris:] Wouldn't bypass [Cathy:] by woman who went to work [Iris:] he wouldn't bypass her [Cathy:] He wouldn't? [Iris:] No [Jane:] I wonder if I approached her [Cathy:] May be a way round is the parent protected teachers [Robert:] Very possessive [Iris:] Parent, yeah [Jane:] Yes I might approach her [Cathy:] Maybe that's a way round [Jane:] direct from [Cathy:] I'll have a go, yes, yes [Jane:] Yeah [Cathy:] cos she's all [Jane:] Mhm [Iris:] Yeah, oh yes Newspeak's rubbish, but Playback's wonderful, but I think that could be true [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] I think I might approach her direct and see how anguished we are to get younger people interested in [Cathy:] That's a shame because children are really the key to this [Jane:] It's a shame [Iris:] They are they are the key [Cathy:] if you can get them going while they're at school [Brian:] You know, I mean, this is an organization we are quite keen to get these people as well, I mean their publicity [Cathy:] Of course [Jane:] Yeah [Iris:] Yeah [Brian:] machine isn't reaching them because we don't have any contacts to send [Jane:] That's right [Brian:] so perhaps I should [Robert:] Ring Lucy [Brian:] try and get a list of contacts or something to, I mean Lucy's quite happy to do it and [Cathy:] The information we can print [Brian:] Yeah, the whole lot for schools, you know [Cathy:] We can get your lists into the braille press and the workshops, I mean [Brian:] Mhm [Cathy:] that would help wouldn't it, send that [Jane:] Maybe, maybe maybe I could do it from the theatre, would, would help [Cathy:] Mhm [Robert:] A different, a different a different approach [Jane:] Yeah [Cathy:] Yes, because it's not [Jane:] it could be [Cathy:] a society it's not [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] We are, we are offering this for our fund [Cathy:] And these were the dates [Jane:] That's right, yeah [Robert:] Yeah [Jane:] that'll be super [Cathy:] And get the letter all brailled and everything so it goes down to the [Iris:] Absolutely That's right [Cathy:] can braille that for you no problem [Robert:] Yeah [Cathy:] and, and er she would sort of say oh and here's a theatre make a wee bit effort yes that might be the answer [Iris:] That's right, that might be the answer for the braille press, for the school and [Cathy:] Yes [Iris:] for the workshop [Cathy:] And it's directly from the theatre [Jane:] What about, what, erm [Cathy:] and that's your braille customer [Brian:] Mm [Jane:] would it be any help for [Brian:] Cos I mean that's what their publicity machine is there for [Jane:] That's right [Cathy:] That's right, that's that can be [Jane:] what about [Cathy:] brailled easily [Jane:] what about the pantomime, I mean I don't like to say this but there's a society in Glasgow buying tickets for the children for pantomime [Iris:] Yes [Jane:] is there a society here like to do that?

[Rod:] Where are we up to? To look at er... tutorial programme for next year. I'm sorry if I'm a bit switched off I don't [LAUGHTER] what you've been doing []! Qui qui er... I actually do feel quite drained, fairly [speaker002:] Yeah, I must admit I do. [Rod:] length session with the old er... er... tax there... and somebody got quite heated and... whatever but... you know, got there. Anyway [speaker003:] We heard. [speaker002:] Yeah? Yeah we did yeah. [speaker003:] Yes we've been told. [speaker004:] Were you inside here were you? [speaker002:] We could hear it from outside. [Rod:] Oh you could hear it? [speaker002:] Occasionally yeah. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] Oh []! [speaker005:] Really? [speaker002:] So [Rod:] Ah, there was... some disagreement it wasn't that bad. Right [speaker005:] Expect I'll hear [speaker002:] tutorial programme, we talked last, last term er and I said that... I'd like to... as soon as possible put up a complete programme of titles, it would be nice if we could have a little... er... what am I supposed to call them? Programme of study outline to alongside it a a as all part of the erm... er... process of of of upping the level of er... credibility if you like, of the tutorial programme. So, really I don't know what's the best way to to to to start, just ask you give a brief resume of where you're at, if you've done... if you've got it in hand, if you haven't got it hand... erm... and then perhaps when we've done that we might er... look at possible resources and stuff get off now. Does that seem a reasonable way forward? [speaker005:] Can I [speaker002:] Yeah, [Rod:] Sandra? [speaker003:] Well can I point first though? [Rod:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Reviews, targeted reviews... are they on the firing line or not? [Rod:] I don't know, I never asked them I'm sorry! [speaker003:] Because [Rod:] Do you want me to go and ask them? [speaker003:] Yeah cos if you could clarify that point it might or tell the pressure we're under. [speaker002:] I'm I I couldn't, I know I had a document and I said to you that we were. [speaker003:] I read it and we were out. Yeah. [Rod:] But then [speaker002:] Don't know how he does that. [speaker004:] But English weren't [speaker002:] But [speaker003:] Are yo... so just [speaker004:] Just said yesterday didn't he? [speaker003:] Yeah,co well if he clarifies it then we know where we are. [speaker002:] That means I get done twice! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] And you need done as far as I'm concerned []! [speaker004:] When is it, the end of September? [speaker002:] Yeah but they're the week before. as if we haven't got enough on our plate! The thing [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] that is stupid Terry is key stage four! [speaker004:] It is an ordinary form. [speaker002:] key stage four, three weeks into key stage four! [speaker005:] I'm looking for that er..., you didn't ge you didn't find that planner did you? [speaker003:] What? [speaker005:] One of those planner things that Rod was talking, I couldn't find mine. [speaker006:] I haven't got one. [speaker007:] I've got, I've got a [speaker005:] I looked. [speaker007:] blank one. [speaker002:] No. [speaker006:] I've never had one of them. [speaker003:] Well that wa I got a blank one. [speaker007:] What are those Marian, you don't get one of those last time? [speaker004:] I got... one of these. [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Start planning, well you got those are the weeks of the year [speaker007:] Mhm. [speaker003:] so you can actually write in, you know the... at [speaker002:] Oh! [speaker003:] half term, summer term [speaker002:] Oh I see [speaker003:] sorry! Half term, Christmas term [speaker007:] Oh! [speaker003:] Is it half terms? My well, I've got technology and all sorts tha on there. Do you want another one Mil? [speaker005:] Aye, cos I've. Er, well I didn't have much.... I'll find it when I get back to school. [speaker003:] Did you, got a copy of this Dave? [speaker002:] Yes, right. [speaker003:] It's right behind us. [speaker004:] Is it A three. [speaker002:] It won't do that. It'll only do A four. You want me to do two... you won't copy that very well but I'll give it a go. [speaker003:] It's just if Rod wanted to write notes this is the last blank one I've got. [speaker002:] Well I can only A four. [speaker003:] Have you got a blank on there that's not written on? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Okay, if he needs a blank one you can give him yours. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And I'll keep this master [speaker002:] Yeah, mm. [speaker003:] and we'll do it [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] it's just, I didn't want to use my last one up. [speaker002:] As I say, that's my last one as well. [speaker003:] Well i if we ke [speaker002:] If you keep that. [speaker003:] Right, so he, well he might not need one [speaker002:] If he needs it. [speaker003:] if I can give him that one. [speaker002:] That was exciting wasn't it! [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Let's get you organised! Well can I just say in in the interim [speaker007:] What on earth do you take Anthony, that's what I want to know! [speaker003:] Just.... [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] Oh I can see your! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I get awfully excited when you start a conversation cos I [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] say, and then you don't say a word! [speaker003:] a nice person, I didn't know this, I found it in resources, but this, I sent for this book and I don't, Rod's referred to it I think and is now... this bit. [speaker005:] that's the, this is this years! [speaker003:] Oh! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh God []! [speaker003:] Er, I don't know what, and I think he,we he sent for that book, I sent for this... and its different issues... which you can possibly used in erm... P S D se er, etcetera... and... there's a number which I feel... work across the years... rather than just... you know, sort of one year book... for example there's a a unit there Terry and [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker003:] that... it's on changing schools, hope and fears Mm. and anything that needs to be photocopied you've got er... a teacher resource... it's about feeling nervous, you know, what can you do? And [speaker006:] I'm... I'm sure my lot would like it. [speaker003:] and there's a thing here you know about... read about it... but it's erm... these are these [speaker006:] Just a minute. [speaker003:] what to do if erm... you know, you're arriving at your first day or... things like that. [speaker006:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Especially, is er... economics... no [speaker006:] No. [speaker003:] it's not. [speaker006:] it's not a different [speaker003:] Erm [speaker006:] one. [speaker002:] Get bollocked by the year tutor! [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] There's one on homework [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker003:] there's one for er... bullying [speaker006:] Mhm. [speaker003:] understanding industry... er [speaker007:] And. [speaker003:] rights and responsibilities, air pollution... here you can you... develop and [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and pro, reviewing your progress which I think's good. But there was [speaker005:] I've got a... what do you me call on that... roo, er an assembly on why we, why do we have rules. [speaker004:] Yeah, I think I have as well. [speaker003:] I mean, I'm [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker003:] trying to think of what new schools and what making a new start, this er, for your file [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker003:] waste recycling er er, I can't remember where I read, I read it through somewhere it was I felt quite good. I yo... how green I mean [speaker005:] Homework. [speaker003:] isn't that what [speaker002:] My [speaker003:] you do in year nine isn't it? Although they'll be doing that last. Small kind of [speaker004:] Particularly in conjunction use ten and eleven. [speaker007:] Don't know, and I want for as well for options cos I want to get everything done, I already forewarned them last time [speaker004:] Would er [speaker007:] that I want everything prepared... before I go. [speaker004:] It's just that I have arranged to meet him tonight sometime to sort out a few things for me... would of made a lot more sense if he'd been here! [speaker003:] Who? [speaker004:] Well Rod. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Particularly... the latter half [speaker007:] Oh! [speaker004:] of year nine and all of [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker004:] year ten and eleven. [speaker007:] Yep. [speaker004:] We work in conjunction. [speaker003:] Right there there's a there's an interesting sheet there, what should I do? I mean that's the one example about arriving at a new school. [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker003:] [reading] What should I do if I arrive late and miss registration []? [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker003:] [reading] What should I do if I fall down and cut myself during break? If I leave my packed lunch Yes. at home... and I have haven't any money? Lose something []? [speaker005:] I'll definitely use that [speaker003:] [reading] Get a headache []? [speaker005:] in getting to know [speaker004:] Year seven [speaker005:] new year seven [speaker004:] Oh yeah for year seven [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker005:] Definitely. [speaker004:] it's good, yeah! [speaker003:] [reading] What should I do if I leave school at eleven thirty because I've got a dental appointment? Erm... I need to phone home because I have stay late? My bike's tampered with? I missed the bus? [speaker006:] Do you think [speaker003:] I break a window []? Mhm. [speaker005:] Is there really? [speaker003:] Well no, what do I do about... if I get given a detention? [speaker005:] Aha. [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Any... you know the, and all these things... are sort of if. [speaker006:] And that's in the teacher's book? [speaker003:] That's the so, in their copy book. [speaker006:] Oh brilliant! [speaker003:] And... but to cover a... a number of issues that we deal with... in what, you know [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker003:] so... I'm just making it [speaker007:] Is this supposed to be? [speaker003:] available. [speaker002:] What? [speaker007:] This was supposed to be in here? [speaker002:] No. [speaker007:] Oh! [speaker006:] We might get somewhere. [speaker003:] Okay, I I was just tha while you were chatting to boss... these books came... and they have a... a number of... different things which... you know, from changing schools [speaker005:] Did you send away for them then Sandra or did they [speaker003:] Yeah, sections er, Longmans were in and they had them. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] Oh Longmans were in were they []? [speaker003:] I... [Rod:] Who was in... Longmans? [speaker007:] Longmans. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Oh! Who they are? [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] I haven't heard of them! [speaker003:] I mean, there's a thing that might be very... prevalent... with bullying, you know why do people get bullied [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker003:] how do you feel about it? And they're all very pupil friendly. So there's... wa... one [Rod:] And because we're doing this do we get them discount? [speaker005:] Okay. [speaker003:] Erm [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I you know da... I wasn't viewing your progress one, I had ta using that one [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker003:] just... but play safe... you know, fireworks, be safe Mm. not sorry! What is safety? Pocket one. So it's there we've photocopied both things. [Rod:] You see there's a general principle there is quite a lot of information in that cupboard... that I keep saying's there, have a look and as we get stuff [speaker004:] Oh yeah, I know what you mean. [Rod:] hand it out. I mean... how much is that set? We... we we've got [speaker003:] Sorry, I'm just... I didn't do that, it just [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] You come out from there Anne's looking for you! [speaker003:] I was looking for the Mr because I remembered I said I would be here in this session and I'd forgotten. [speaker002:] By the bar. [speaker003:] He's he's gone in the bar just for [speaker002:] Couldn't help but er... It's the single place, I di I didn't see him [speaker003:] Yeah, [speaker002:] next door. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] Oh! I I [speaker007:] It's er the act... the the whole se, the teacher's book is seven forty five... no, the resource book seven twenty five, and the teacher's... fesh... er, the book itself is four ninety five. So [Rod:] Well I mean we've got money, haven't spent any money yet. [speaker003:] Well you'd only need four teacher's packs... oh and there'd be five, one for the tutor and... er, four teachers... so you could, you know [Rod:] I mean da in fact, do people wanna have a quick look and se a and give me a [speaker007:] Mm mm. [Rod:] over the next day and a bit, yeah go for it, get it! We've got the money. [speaker007:] Mm. [Rod:] I mean, it's one of the things... I wanna include in our discussion if we get round to it about... having more resources available. [speaker004:] yeah. [Rod:] But I've just been talking to the head there and he said you know... that... you know... the tor tutorial programme, Mrs started it all... erm [speaker006:] Miss... did she? [Rod:] Ah! six years ago, seven years ago and... you know it's moved on from there and I made the point, yes it was started in the point... a at the level of, there's a file it's got information, get on with it! [speaker007:] Get on with it! [Rod:] We're passed that now... we're trying to give people more direction, get them involved... er... this is the first year we've able to do it... in a sense, properly cos it's been the first year, with all due respect to all the work you've done in the past, we've got five year tutors. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Right. [Rod:] Er... so, anyway... resources, that's part of it, have a look at it, Sandra, if you pa if you pass it onto each other and then just say that I think that's worth getting cos we do have the money now... er... to to start and look at things like that. I've just asked him about the collaborative review... the focus is apparently on national curriculum so that means maths, English and, but they want to look ge more general issues and because they're in on a Wens Tuesday and a Wednesday... he said that they would go in a look at, three of them would go in a look at taught tutorial lessons... they will want to talk to me about the tutorial programme... I would hope that that would involve somebody else cos I've... got the... bit of the fence that I sit on... and... ask one or two of you to give your opinion if, if you're available. So they would actually be in a lesson with tutors... we would nominate who you'd want them to go in with... so... I'm not saying do it now... you've all got your programmes... I assume, sorted for... the first half term anyway... an erm, pretty well tied up, should be... erm... so really it's down to saying who they're gonna go in with... er [speaker003:] When is the collaborative review? Review. [Rod:] Was it not the third Wednesday? [speaker003:] I think it's at the week. [speaker002:] We are being seen in Science, twenty ninth and thirtieth. [speaker003:] Oh that's a Tuesday and Wednesday the next one. isn't it? [speaker002:] So [speaker003:] That... fourth week. [Rod:] Is that the fourth week? [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] So it's this then. [speaker004:] That's the thirtieth of September. [Rod:] I by then. [speaker003:] I'm just giving you a spread sheet and this blank page and [Rod:] Oh bless you, thanks! [speaker003:] give you a... did you give him a blank page? [speaker002:] No, I said if he needed it! [speaker003:] If he need, right got one. [speaker002:] He might not need it! [Rod:] Cos we've changed that very much didn't we? [speaker003:] Well we started working in this one that I've got here. [Rod:] Okay, so you sort of nine, ten, eleven cos we had fun and games with [speaker003:] Do you want me to come round there so you can read this sheet as well? [Rod:] No it doesn't matter you lot can keep me right. [speaker003:] Okay. [Rod:] You lot, that sounds awful! You lot! [speaker003:] was organised. [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] But... can you remember what you wrote down on yours? [speaker007:] I ca I ca I can't find mine, I found these papers... and I can't find what I've written in mine. [speaker002:] Well... first block, environmental awareness. [speaker003:] That was the first seven weeks. [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Then there's a blank. [speaker003:] Then there's a blank for weeks eight to thirteen. [speaker007:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Then week fourteen... to nineteen was options [speaker004:] Curriculum choice... careers options. [speaker003:] involveme, involvement of careers officers. [speaker007:] That was next term. [speaker003:] As ja, that [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] no the er it's the la [speaker004:] Yes, that's [speaker003:] the last week of Christmas... term... and then the next week's... er then... the twe [speaker007:] No, I didn't have it before Christmas. [speaker004:] I've got January the fourth, in [speaker007:] Aha. [speaker004:] fifteen to twenty one on mine. [speaker007:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Fifteen, and so the ju what? Fifteen to twenty one? [speaker004:] I've got fifteen to twenty one on my options curriculum choice, careers officer, Ian. [speaker003:] Oh okay,fifte, I'll... go with that. [speaker004:] I'm not gonna ar, I mean that's just what I've got down. [speaker003:] Oh that's er... er involvement career's officers [speaker005:] Sorry! [speaker004:] Does that have nothing else after that? [speaker003:] And anything, then national testing... I've got down the twenty four... er, week thirty two to week... thirty seven. [speaker004:] What? [Rod:] National testing... SATS. [speaker003:] National curriculum reporting, test er, SATS and national curriculum reporting [speaker004:] Oh, gonna say something! [speaker003:] and parent's evening... is a... that's all pulling together... and tha, that's it. [speaker007:] Anyone want a Mintoe sweet? [speaker003:] Please. [speaker002:] No. [Rod:] Okay? [speaker007:] I'll find it [Rod:] Is that all? [speaker007:] to er tomor [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] er Monday when I get back, I can't find it at the moment. [Rod:] So there's not a lot of point if I say well can you tell me what you're doing? [speaker007:] Aha. No because... I had a meeting yesterday with the kid, with the kids! [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Freudian slip there! [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER]... And er... I had asked there was anything you know, they would be interested in... and they all agreed that they wanted to start with banking, and wha, see what Sandra had done last er ta... last year with a group that they thought was very good... getting them to be aware [Rod:] Yeah that sounds. [speaker007:] Er, finding chance... doing a budget erm... er er er was it [speaker003:] Different types like loan services [speaker007:] oh it was ah... now even... a resource pack that Sandra's just got recently... and... it's rather good, I rather liked it. [speaker003:] You'd better! [speaker006:] I don't think though, this might, it's a very ones they're just like building society. [Rod:] Right. [speaker006:] More into budgeting, the video etcetera. [Rod:] Well, the thing is... what's happening, I thought we might spend some time on if wanted, what I wanted to do was to be sure in my own mind... that... by the second week I could put up a master sheet... with all the headings of what you were doing, that's gotta be done. [speaker006:] Of what we're doing now. Right. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] Right? So you've gotta get your fingers out if you haven't done it and get it organised! [speaker007:] Aha. [Rod:] That's number one. That's not to say it's innumerable [speaker007:] Mhm. [Rod:] because if something happens, I think... it's important for tutorial programme it can respond to what's happening [speaker007:] Mhm. [Rod:] and if something happens that we feel is important and so one of your form tutors has something that they're committed to and you wanna bring that in that's fine. [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] But you do have to look at looking at... you know, as I've said across the five years. So at the start of the second week I will want to put a master sheet up with all the headings on [speaker003:] Mhm. [Rod:] with what you're doing. And I was just gonna say to you for my benefit [speaker003:] We can tear that [Rod:] Yeah. [speaker003:] you've been stuck up against them. [speaker002:] For my benefit... would you just like to sort of give me a quick rattle through... as as as to what you intend to do. Right,i is that fair? [speaker003:] Yep. [Rod:] Do we start? [speaker002:] Well I'm [Rod:] Top up bottom down... bottom [speaker002:] Well [Rod:] top down. [speaker002:] both really. [Rod:] Go on then David. [speaker002:] Mine's a short list.... Well obviously week one... is just informal, sorting out any problems with time tables... changing the records etcetera... we agreed on that. [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker002:] I've then got... rolling... I A P's with... Rob and whoever it is that got to help us... with individual action planning [Rod:] Right. [speaker002:] for two weeks... switching over after two weeks and repeat the same process, at the same time the other two groups will be doing personal statements. [Rod:] Right. [speaker002:] I've yet to soc... totally confirm the number of weeks Mrs wants during the first two sessions... that's up to week fourteen... when she wants exactly to do the aids. [Rod:] Right. [speaker002:] Again, which will be exactly the same as I A P... two classes in... doing the age whilst the other class is not, there they'll be doing personal statements [Rod:] Mhm. [speaker002:] except for the form teachers with me helping them as well and Uncle Don [Rod:] Right. [speaker002:] for the computer etcetera. [Rod:] And you'll make sure Dave's in the picture about [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] personal statements and what you did to build on your experience etcetera, etcetera, etcetera etcetera. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] We [speaker005:] That's the sad thing because we're not in the same office any more. [speaker002:] Makes no odds. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] Oh a million miles away! [speaker005:] I know! [speaker007:] You can use my desk. [speaker003:] I tell you what, we'll get that in... same as on what we've got. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] Exactly []! [Rod:] Should of [speaker002:] Shut up! [Rod:] put Vil in the corner! [speaker002:] Mm. [Rod:] Where your desk is. [speaker002:] I can just shout through the wall! [speaker003:] They could of just shouted through! [Rod:] And the cracks would have appeared! [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Go on Dave, sorry! [speaker002:] Twelve, thirteen and fourteen are... something I'm not very aut fait with... as regards tutors I'm not anyway... is the interim report that goes out... after [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker002:] they've done their mocks. [Rod:] I... Milly and I will sort you out on that. [speaker002:] Weeks fifteen to twenty one... is... subject specific and all the details that have to come in and make up... a record of achievement. [speaker003:] Pardon, what makes those Dave? [speaker002:] Fifteen to twenty one. [speaker003:] I've got down here I A P review. [speaker002:] Well I haven't... a... we haven't yet have I! [speaker003:] Oh sorry. [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] You're gonna get a smack round the ear in a minute [LAUGHTER] you really are []! [Rod:] Just bear with me a moment... we can stay the same as we on subject specifics at the moment, we don't have to change that, I'm just trying to think in the light of national curriculum and what's happening [speaker002:] No. [Rod:] we don't have to change anything yet. [speaker002:] No, that stays the [Rod:] Cos we had a [speaker002:] same. [Rod:] there was a big discussion about the standard report, it won't cover five years and I said it doesn't have to cover five years, it never has done... it's only covered four cos we what we do in year eleven is different anyway. That's okay, just [speaker002:] Right. [Rod:] bear with me. [speaker002:] Obviously completing... joint statements... booking in time to go on the computers to get them typed up nicely [Rod:] Mhm. [speaker002:] again, with myself... perhaps Milvia... if I need her, and obviously Uncle Don... cos he's the... the attack person. Weeks twenty and twenty one we do the summative documents for the I A P... Sandra? [speaker003:] Twenty, twenty one? [speaker002:] Yes... has to be finished there. The then that leaves me just basically five weeks or four weeks to tie up everything and get ready for the record of achievement... obviously [speaker007:] Where's your curriculum statements? [speaker002:] But I've said the [Rod:] But they're ongoing you don't have to worry about [speaker002:] they're ongoing all the time. [Rod:] tutorial do you? [speaker007:] That's subject specific. [Rod:] No. [speaker002:] No! Have I said... I've said those would come in from the departments. [Rod:] You mean... the sheet that has all the subjects? [speaker007:] Mm. [Rod:] Right. [speaker002:] Well I've got that written down as the beginning of what goes in but e, I don't actually do those the departments do them. [Rod:] No. [speaker007:] No! No! [Rod:] Subject specific, curriculum statement is a summation of all the courses they're doing. [speaker007:] You need that in January. [Rod:] That can actually be done, that can be done in two weeks. [speaker007:] Yeah, it's very simple. As long as all the subjects have... the maths held us up for ages, and the science for ages! [speaker002:] What? [Rod:] Not being able to decide where the [speaker007:] Mm. [Rod:] Every course [speaker007:] What [Rod:] every course is numbered [speaker002:] Yes I know. [Rod:] and the curriculum statement, all the kids do... is on a sheet put the number of the courses [speaker002:] Mm. [Rod:] they're following... so that needs updating... and I'll, I'll go through that with you. That needs updating and then they just indicate the number [speaker003:] I've studies on. [Rod:] and get the sheet printed out that has all their courses on it. [speaker003:] And it. [speaker007:] And it goes in front. [Rod:] That's not a problem. [speaker007:] There's no problem! [speaker002:] . I I know! [speaker007:] But i i it's yo you can't do it... this term... because maths is never ready... it always has to be done... erm... next term. [Rod:] So you need... to find, you can, I actually did it with Paul 's class in one week! [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] I just sat there, got them all out one at a time and did the whole damn lot! But some people it took three weeks to do I don't know how the hell it did that, and I didn't even know [speaker007:] I had to keep checking the only one I had to keep checking was Dick's. [Rod:] Ah well. [speaker007:] I ended up doing Dick's. [speaker002:] And the only thing I need to ask you about is that bloody great, bloody great memo, I've said it so I'll say it again... it's pinned up in my old tutor's room... what do you want me to put down on the document for the record of achievement on attendance? Now what do we actually want to put down? [speaker007:] Oh aye that's new isn't it? [Rod:] Right, I think what we've [speaker002:] You've got a frown Sandra, on the... notice board above the fridge... it says this is to be included in next years record of achievement which I presume will have to go into yours as well after my year [speaker004:] It's on, it's on Dave's. [speaker002:] there has to be something said about attendance. [speaker007:] It can't be just figures it has to be some sort of er... summation doesn't it as well or not? [speaker002:] Well... I would pe, I would pe prefer what I've got a record of is is percentage. [speaker007:] written. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Well you can't just put numbers down can you? [speaker002:] Well let's have a percentage. It's used as the criteria for S M B! [speaker003:] Then the question [speaker007:] It's a big, ruddy big long sheet! [speaker002:] Well... yeah, but that's just it what am I supposed to put on? [speaker007:] Exactly, so it has to be written, some sort of written [Rod:] The only way you can do it at any particular point that's the trouble. [speaker007:] That's a form tutor's again isn't it? [Rod:] Is it? As I da da, as Dave says as an overall percentage or to do it as we always do as a, as a termly figure. Alright? [speaker002:] already have for every child... in year ten [speaker003:] Smack him! [speaker002:] their percentages... for the first three terms all written down. [speaker007:] Aha. [speaker002:] Because as far as I'm concerned that is the best way er... that's how I do it for S M B, that's the criteria for that certificate that they get. [speaker005:] I'm doing that as well. [Rod:] Mm. Sandra? [speaker003:] Can I just [speaker002:] Got any objection? [speaker003:] Attendance... can I just erm... ask... is it... er... possible attendance less unexplained absence... or is it... actual attendance plus... explained absences... for attendance? [speaker002:] Well [Rod:] Attendance... it is. [speaker003:] Isn't it? [speaker007:] You haven't got anything [Rod:] Attendance. [speaker007:] positive and you can't forget about the [Rod:] te [speaker007:] negatives either [speaker003:] No [Rod:] attendance. [speaker003:] but [speaker007:] it's an overall [speaker003:] what are the con it it's... with some schools are putting in [Rod:] Justifiable. [speaker003:] are putting in... they have high attendance rates because they're including explained absences... you know, as justified... you know, and putting them with the actual attendance [speaker004:] Well yeah. [speaker003:] figures. [speaker004:] Primary schools are doing that. [speaker003:] They are, they're doing that! So what [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] do they mean? [Rod:] I don't know. We need to Sue to get that clarified. [speaker002:] Well I'll tell you what... that's gonna be an awful job if it is! [Rod:] Well [speaker002:] That could be a horrendous [Rod:] It's ju [speaker002:] job! [Rod:] You see my [speaker006:] years so we're starting from scratch. [Rod:] my attitude is... if you're not in school for whatever the reason you're absent! [speaker002:] I see no objection [Rod:] But it [speaker002:] to putting down [speaker005:] I thought [speaker002:] hospitalised for six [speaker005:] Yes! [speaker002:] months or something. [Rod:] That does, seems reasonable. [speaker002:] But I'm not... I'm not in the frame of mind to be saying this kid was off for a week with flu then... and was off [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker002:] for a week with [speaker005:] Oh no! [speaker002:] No way! [speaker005:] No. [speaker003:] But what I'm saying is some schools... they might be here seventy five days out of a hundred... but for twenty of those [Rod:] Does this make a difference? She's talking with a sweet in her mouth! [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] On one of those tapes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Longmans. [Rod:] the quality of sou, have you listened? [speaker003:] No I haven't, I [Rod:] Oh [speaker003:] haven't listened to it. [Rod:] you listen afterwards, it's great! [speaker003:] continue [Rod:] You might from the national [speaker003:] on seventy five days [speaker002:] She's eating a toffee as well! [speaker003:] but out of the ninety [Rod:] Mm. [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] Hard to talk []! [speaker003:] he could be there... he's got a note for... fifteen... cos he had flu for three weeks... therefore he's attendance. [Rod:] Absent. [speaker003:] And sh excuse me but... what I do not want happening on records of achievement as regards cos we are totally honest... and I could name a school not too far from us [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] where they're including things like that [speaker007:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and they're attendance patterns look excellent! [speaker007:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh they [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] do! [speaker003:] and my concern is... that our children are going to go into the er... work place... to try and... you know establish their own It's a disadvantage, yeah. thing... at an advantage because we're being [speaker007:] It's true, we're being honest. [speaker003:] Totally honest. [speaker005:] Yet other areas aren't, that's true. [speaker007:] You see something like a doctors appointment or a hospital appointment I think deserves and attendance... because they're given er a dental card or yo you're shown it, you know, they've given to you to [speaker002:] ... they're not classed as absent. [speaker007:] Are they not? [speaker002:] No. [speaker004:] They are as a rule. [speaker003:] They are [speaker007:] They are? [speaker003:] if they go first thing in the morning. [speaker002:] If, if they don't go first thing in the morning I've seen people write down absence all day... or all morning. [speaker004:] Yeah, but we we're getting into the area there where form teachers are doing it as well, they are not absences! [speaker002:] Ah well! [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] They are if the chap [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] doesn't come to school. If the child isn't in for the mark prior going to the doctors at ten o'clock... they're absent even if they have a note. If they don't register their absence... according to our system. [Rod:] Mm. [speaker004:] Or they're late... if they come in at ten o'clock. [speaker002:] Well at the end of the day ignoring those er... slight tangents... that's gonna be a horrendous job for all [Rod:] Right. [speaker002:] those writing that out! [Rod:] What I will do, two things we'll talk to Sue Dave that needs to be, to find out... if we can, what's happening elsewhere... cos she can through her colleagues... and I will also I I don't think I'll ring Margaret but I'll give Terry a ring Morden... who's the record of achievement guy there and get on quite well with him... just to find out... what sort of tap they're taking on it... cos er... yeah, I I take very much what Sandra's saying as don't want our youngsters to be disadvantaged in anyway if others are... lies, damn lies and statistics bit! [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] We'll go with it. Sandra? Before we move on because we're getting [speaker003:] Just a slight er er, a slight [Rod:] bogged down with attendance. [speaker003:] it's a tangent it's just another thing to be aware of er... that certain put their exam but it's along the same thing cos I know what's happening... and they're not writing G C S E but they're writing exam entries... so many pupils... x number of subjects... so many passes... okay? And what they're including... are unit acs... and things like that. [Rod:] Well, yeah right. [speaker003:] But if... and that's if they were... attendance [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] is no better. [speaker002:] No. [Rod:] , damn lies and statistics! [speaker003:] Yep. [Rod:] Not playing that game at the moment. Thank you for that beautiful information [speaker002:] What I'll, it's your turn on. [Rod:] So the only thing I need to address is finding time to put curriculum statement in and we need to clarify that situation... so you know why you're at and quite happy. [speaker002:] Yes, I'm quite happy I'm just building up with Rob... with the I A P's [Rod:] I was going to say that needs... sort of tying in your... okay with that? [speaker002:] No problem. [Rod:] Okay. [speaker007:] Remember there's a file on top on my filing cabinet where both Trish worked out... sort of simple lesson plans... er, before we actually put them on... oh they're going up, not use the computer now are we? [speaker002:] We're not using the computer. [speaker007:] But it's [Rod:] Okay. [speaker007:] a way of making them aware if you want them to start doing... thinking of it, what was it, personal statements we did? [Rod:] Personal development plans. Right. Sand? [speaker003:] Right... I... have changed what I was going to do somewhat... after yesterday's meeting... erm [Rod:] I... can I [speaker003:] I put [Rod:] while I I think I shall ask you for a sheet with that... sort of [speaker003:] Mhm. [Rod:] laid out so I can pull it all together. [speaker003:] Right. Erm [Rod:] Everyone that is. [speaker003:] The year... erm... which was done last year myself, self assessment and that... I've actually my form tutor to suggest it and they are reasonably positive, like sixty five percent... to move into [Rod:] [whispering] God []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Damn positive, through those [Rod:] How how's sixty [speaker002:] []! [Rod:] How do you work sixty five percent out when you've got four of them, this is interesting! [speaker002:] It's a majority [Rod:] You said seventy five? [speaker002:] isn't it? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Mm. I've got two [speaker004:] Two and a bit. [speaker003:] one will be with me... one will come with me cos they're always doing things wrong and then shout at them! [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And the other two will do... the marginal bit. [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] Oh dear dear! [speaker003:] So that's the reasonable. [Rod:] So which one of them do you want the er... advisor to go in with? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Fifteen love! Oh dear! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] So we've [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] I know which one I'm gonna put in []! [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh yeah, []! [speaker003:] I'll be [LAUGHTER] Mhm. [Rod:] Isn't it a shame Dick 's left! [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] I know []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] He hasn't! [Rod:] Has he? Has he? [speaker007:] No no [speaker003:] No. [speaker007:] not really not in my year group. [speaker003:] Right! Getting back to this... they're starting, the first two weeks I've for timetables, administration etcetera that's the... which was agreed whenever. [Rod:] One week I thought we agreed, but never mind! [speaker003:] I hadn't amended that bit but I'll amend it and sta and write up proper. I've asked them as well and this might take them into the second week er to start with their pupils process on a Wednesday morning... whereby in each classroom there would be... a me master year plan... even if it means they have to buy four and divide it up... but I su I suggest that I would do something, you know, produce one... and on that they will write pertinent to the the form... to the form... er... and continue to add on that over, you know as and when it's relevant... er, dates for completion of course work, it might be module testing etcetera... and I'm going to ask at briefing that any... anything that a teacher has... put down for children, it might be just you know Mi Mr x's group... is mentioned at briefing... so... they can write down what's pertinent to them... and therefore [Rod:] Good idea! [speaker003:] the teacher acts as a conscience... I I explained to them I'm not expecting them to make the child do the work, but to be their conscience so they can say look you've got three assessments coming in that week... if you leave it till Friday night you're up the creak without a paddle! So they're going to be the conscience and the parenting for that year group... and I also suggested that at that time, I think what Rob's doing is getting the children to look at themselves... er, as regards what their strengths and weaknesses are and the P S D have got to clarify that. I wanted them to ste start doing a self assessment on the child about their strengths and weaknesses... leading o, into the I A P... right... and coming through with that what they would like to achieve... in... where they'd like to go two years hence. Part of that would be that they identify that that's, I'm going there two years hence that's the pathway... and it's too late to wait until... next January... a year from January and suddenly realise they need six G C S E's, a, b, c... when they've lost half their grades on the course work to date. So... really... I need to firm up with them, I've dropped the seeds in to firm up the process... and they're going to work through that with the kids... at the same time... talking about what a record of achievement is, showing them what goes inside it, the importance of it etcetera. And compact... I would like to think that when we've looked at the kids and what's required in the I A P that we can have an industry day with them... I'm trying, I'm suggesting... er, in January. [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] But I need clari clarification from the boss. [Rod:] So are you talking, you're saying to me that's a full term's work? [speaker003:] I'm looking to be pushing because I, I I might ask them to get speakers in etcetera. I don't really know where I, or I know where I'm going but I have to... take the troops with me... I had er, I got you see what is... parts of a I A P compact certificate... it might in fact, if the boss would let me do, if I could do an industry in December... right? What I'd like to do is have... an industry day then... and then a parent's invitation to see what the kids had done... and a quick... feedback. [Rod:] But an industry in December is [speaker003:] December. [Rod:] you're talking about... ah, a lot of weeks in between and my concern [speaker003:] I'm not talking a lot of weeks in between I'm talking erm... eleven. [Rod:] I class that as a lot of weeks... for the likes of... oh we're not going to names, to to occupy the borderline children [speaker003:] I'm ta, I'm talking elev Yeah. eleven hours! [Rod:] We're on the same side and you know and I know that some of the troops are gonna find that, I, my opinion is that some of the troops will find that hard going... for eleven weeks... unless they know exactly what the hell they're supposed to be doing in [speaker003:] Well whatever it, I would like to do after this, my discussion with them on Thursday I may bring it down... I don't know what way, what they're going to throw in cos I won't be [Rod:] Okay. [speaker003:] able to take, I've never done an industry day [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] with... the form teacher and yo and you know that has to be fairly fluid to let i... incorporate their ideas... erm... but I would then... put out, you know, week seven... er, you know... review what... er, a record of achievement is... it might be... what can write... try your personal statement about yourself. [Rod:] Okay. [speaker003:] But we'll have statement, but you know, do that practice bit. [Rod:] The only thing that occurs to me er er and now yo your veteran day from last year a a... does any of that, how does... you know, cos he does it, how does any of that sit with Rob or... do we just say... right well we do cos [speaker003:] Well when I've asked... Rob [speaker002:] You didn't! [speaker003:] I asked... had a very heated discussion... erm... where I si... wanting... to be having the careers teachers in... and working with the forms etcetera... and doing it, the er job wise... and he wouldn't entertain at all [speaker007:] Mhm. [speaker003:] in year ten! [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] That's why I'm left back now... trying to do something without doing job wise, I'm just hoping that these children on the P S D group. But er, you know, as I say I know what you're saying... I won't say to him I want that done over eleven weeks, I'll say this is what we're gonna do week by week. [Rod:] You, you know how I feel, I mean er Rob does a lot of good work but he keeps it all to himself and we've gotta be bigger than keeping it to ourselves, it's everybody's responsibility vocational education from... right down from year seven right the way across the board, they've gotta [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] be aware of what's going on in the world in terms of not just employment but... further o opportunities. [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] And it worries me still that we, we ain't shifting him enough... er [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] There's the cat []! [speaker002:] I think that's why we've [speaker004:] There's cats as well here! [speaker003:] The bone [Rod:] Beca because it was focus ma my concern Dave was wanting to know... that we've got something tied up [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker003:] Right. [Rod:] Five year programme. A five year programme. Something tied up, something in there as a heading so every member of staff knows that at such and such a time... they are working on a heading of environmental awareness... I would like us to have a precis of what that's gonna involve... but, I shan't worry if we haven't got that... we've moved on a step [speaker003:] Aha. [Rod:] from last year [speaker002:] Fair enough. [Rod:] every year I'm looking for it to move forward a little bit. [speaker003:] Well, what I'm suggesting doing is thi... it, what are my outcomes from this? That the form tutor shou, is going to be a conscience and really what we call a form tutor's job is going to... you know, talk to the children [Rod:] Aha. [speaker003:] review with them where they're at, record how they're doing, you know tra, I mean I can't tell them to do that, but actually ask them to spend five or ten minutes each session talking to different pupils and... what they've been doing and you know... even if it's a personal timetable... some people won't get into it but it's... you know, trying to get them to be... what are tutors are, you know, I'd like them to do. So that's the first outcome. The second outcome is... that all children would be aware of what's involved in the record of achievement. [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] Thirdly, that each child will have assessed themselves and done the first draft of the personal action plan. Fourthly... that each child on that action plan would have outlined where they would hope to go... and following that... have found out what the requirements are, the possible pathway through... and if they aren't sure, I was gon, what I was gonna ask was, if I could have a careers teacher in... to talk to form... about possible pathway through,i in the general terms... so they've got these four outcomes there. [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] Include it in that, those twelve weeks because I know it's, you know, a bit erm... I would try and see if I could set up some sex education... with the health centre and the, you know, that she used to take them and they went through contraception and condoms and whatever... at the, and she used to take them down for an afternoon... it might well be... that they have... to miss... a lesson [Rod:] Little bit of light relief in terms of sex education. [speaker003:] Mhm. And then [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] the first day in health, if we can fit it in, but by Easter term so at their half term, February half term... I would like to think they've got those four things on, we've got [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] an in and ecta... er, an industry day done... where... you know, it's about the qualities needed in the young person, they have a certificate that they're going to have to say they've got these qualities, right? [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] And a compact certificate, and they've got some sex education and possibly some first aid. [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] If the sex education doesn't work. [Rod:] So you're talking about February half term, you're talking about three half term's work... right? Then? [speaker003:] Erm... erm, A ten... it the there's various units... and as a unit... erm... are the family... and I felt that perhaps... at that stage are you not on the family and what it's about. [Rod:] Okay. [speaker003:] Er, and I would like to pick up a unit... after... every half term... but around that, you know, somewhere along... get them into something really tangible [Rod:] Has has has Anne written a unit on the family? [speaker003:] No, I must do that [speaker002:] Yeah [Rod:] I would have a word with Anne jus, just from stuff I wo [speaker003:] It's on the list. [Rod:] stuff I was listening to this morning... I don't whether that was one of the things... but she's certainly looking at... areas like that. [speaker003:] Christian marriage. [Rod:] Was it? Might be worth talking to her. [speaker007:] She's written on the marriage one but she's got [Rod:] What I [speaker007:] an eleventh grade. [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] All I'm suggesting is... i it could link with her so [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] you know [speaker003:] I would like to think that after doing the stuff and the and that, that they actually get down to something solid. But, you see at February... we're then into review er... cro er... reviewing the PDP's for some reason or another, I've written down here... and profiling reporting to parents. [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] That takes me up to Easter. [Rod:] Summer term? [speaker003:] Well er, summer term... er, looking back at year ten... erm... is work's experience a, they're writing that... owing to personal statements and end of summer term [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] following the work's experience... there is a half term there, so it can either come before that or after it... and I'll do a unit... and it might be on... safety... or, if I can't erm... first aid I might get safety in and they'll do it like that... and we'll fill in some units. [Rod:] Okay. It needs, having [speaker003:] And it and it's, yeah. [Rod:] It's it's a long stretch of time... the troops need pinning down... with it... that's all I'm saying. [speaker003:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? [speaker003:] They'll need some dates for reviewing and I'll... I'll write it down. [Rod:] Okay! Mil? [speaker005:] And I say I I can't, I honestly cannot remember... what I was doing, I remember the environment one because I got a module written on that... erm... I remember that I had put in er I want to do first aid and safety in the home sort of thing... er, they were three modules that I wanted... er, to do. Options naturally come around [speaker002:] Weeks [speaker005:] Er [speaker002:] fifteen. [speaker005:] Pardon? [speaker002:] January the fourth [speaker003:] Week fifteen. [speaker002:] week fifteen [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you've got. [speaker005:] Er, and that term there... because after the half term they have to start making their choices... isn't that right? [Rod:] Yeah, option [speaker002:] There a [Rod:] always used to be a half term's work. [speaker002:] Always used to be half term, but Milvia it can only be half an hour! [Rod:] It's [speaker002:] There's to choose for them any more! [Rod:] I [speaker005:] Aye, I see what you mean, right, yeah. [speaker002:] There's nothing at all! [Rod:] There is a certain amount of choice and [speaker002:] Yeah, but I'm being [Rod:] I [speaker002:] facetious! There's hardly any! [Rod:] But there's still, we still I mean er er you perhaps need to talk to Rob to see what he wants... his input, it's always been a bit airy fairy and there, there are sheets! the choice is not the same but they should be aware of some of the implications if they choose to go down such and such a road. There is a need for, and I say with all due respect, an unbiased... er, piece of advice... from people who ha, don't have an axe to grind in terms of specific subjects because... some children er... in my opinion... are sometimes lead down wrong avenues [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] er, to gratify in inverted [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] commas... individual teachers and we do have to be very careful about that. I was trying to hint at that this morning that we're looking at... a whole child and sometimes... they're not gonna succeed in a subject they've put it cos there's sod all else for them to put... and we need to be aware of that. So there is some choice... and ah, yeah, we perhaps need to think about whether... you know better from last year whether it's still a half term. [speaker002:] It isn't a half term just pain, mainly now to go through the options and choose it but if you were perhaps... bring in as you co, I've got written down your careers officer [Rod:] Mm. [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker002:] for one week, say, or perha, probably have to be two cos you [speaker005:] Sorry ca, can I just interrupt there? You know how... I do, I couldn't remember that I'd actually started the... the Easter term... doing the erm... choices... etcetera, I always thought it was the later half... of that term, the latter half of that term. It isn't, so starting in January [speaker002:] But we haven't been [speaker003:] Well I hadn't I hadn't written it down here as being February the eighth you were starting. [speaker005:] February the what? [speaker003:] Eighth, er... yeah. Week twenty to [speaker005:] Fine. I don't know why but I always thought it was some nearest [speaker003:] And we do, what the tenth year [speaker005:] the other half of that term. [speaker003:] what the ninth years did this year was... Rob gave them a pep talk... and... and there's a booklet, Choices, he gives out and asks them [speaker005:] That's right. [speaker003:] to work their way through it, along with the Choices there is a vi a video to go [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and... then they're supposed to do some work with the form teacher talking about where the strengths and weaknesses li, you know again. [speaker005:] But this isn't in tutorial is it? P S D would do it. [speaker003:] This is tutorial this year. [speaker002:] Tutorial. [speaker003:] Yeah! [speaker005:] Mm! [speaker003:] But then [Rod:] Well in year... in [speaker003:] they [Rod:] year nine how can they do it in P S D? [speaker002:] That's right [speaker005:] Oh aye, that's er [speaker003:] but the... er, the careers officer came into to er do a ans question answer session on the last one... and it was too bigger form... you know, the kids wouldn't speak. [Rod:] [whispering] Probably in the []! [speaker003:] Erm... the... er er I ca... can I just say that... the introduction... of the Choices booklet need a real bit of... it was a bit [Rod:] Who did that? [speaker005:] She said Rob. [speaker003:] Mhm. And the vid, you see the video really should come before the Choices, the [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker003:] video should be there before the magazine. And before [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker003:] the booklet choices... and then the discussion can get going... but the careers officer for half an hour. [Rod:] Right, but one of the things we have to remember is, and I know it's sort of a sha, but you have the experience of last year... and, that has to be shared... you know to to sort of cut the corners... yo you've gotta pass it back a year... or up a year, whichever... whatever happens... and you've made a very valid comment there and you need to make note of that that, you know... somehow you have to work round Rob to get it [speaker003:] Bit better. [Rod:] the way... round him with him buying [speaker004:] Well a minute, is there any reason why he has got to do that, because he has no other contact with year nine at all? [speaker003:] But he should be having contact with year nine. [speaker004:] Yeah but [Rod:] Rob should be working across the school. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] But it's... it's it's hard work! I mean [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] So instead of me doing, let's say, the February [speaker002:] Do [speaker005:] the eighth the twentieth week... you're saying I should be starting this for January term? [speaker002:] Well what I'm looking at is you haven't got anything at all right! [speaker005:] No, so I'm right then Sandra? If [speaker003:] I would do them later because I tell you what happens then, there will be a ch, there may well be a choice in two columns, I don't know if that [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] one's like this... but the problem we hit this year er, we didn't do it that early... was the kids had got the forms out... then the timetable and the financing came in... and we didn't know what was happening [Rod:] We didn't what staffing was. [speaker003:] and we actually we actually had done the options [Rod:] Aye. [speaker003:] and then it all had to be scrapped and by the middle [Rod:] They had to do it again. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker003:] midnight one night to produce another form [Rod:] Mm. [speaker003:] so I would say closer [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] to er... you know, really... to er th the se the the second half [Rod:] Mm. [speaker003:] of the [Rod:] Mm. [speaker003:] spring term coming up to easter... because until you know your budgets and your [speaker002:] What's wrong with? [speaker003:] staffing, and your numbers [speaker002:] What's wrong with that term? [speaker003:] you don't know what's gonna be offered. [Rod:] Doing your choice then? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] Because in the past Dave we've actually tried to tie it in with parent's evening to sort of use it as a bit of a motivator to jeer the, gee them up... before the end [speaker002:] But if I [Rod:] so... if you're putting it in the second half of the second term [speaker002:] If I come running along here... same old bug bear cos I'm science, I still have no confirmation from anybody yet... what about these SATS that the kids do? You're gonna have three huge curriculum areas, maths, English and science... they'll have taken their SATS... we have got to report on them [speaker006:] And technology do SATS this year. [speaker002:] you're doing, well there's four, there's half the, nearly half the curriculum the kids are doing [Rod:] I'm not quite sure yet cos we're [LAUGHTER] this []... chicken and egg which starts first... I think we're gonna look at a... an an interim type report in year nine... a quicker type report... I can't remember what it's, it's written down in my other diary... because what I don't want to happen is to, people to have a onerous report at the end of year nine, cos they're gonna have to do a report there now [speaker002:] Well they've got no choice [speaker004:] No choice. [speaker002:] it says so! [Rod:] or... and the cho, it has, this is, it has to be there by, we can actually just do a national curriculum report which gives a level, that's all! Bum bum, levels out! Okay? Or a fully comprehensive report so... there's a little bit of leeway in that yet. [speaker002:] No, we're not saying it's the leeway might be important, cos... as I said, these choices, and Sandra will agree, there's only two columns, that isn't gonna increase! [speaker003:] Er, and there's actually choices within columns as well, you know the, it's split up... its do your geography, or do your geography? Mm. Do you French, do you Spanish? [Rod:] But there is. [speaker002:] But it's still [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a long [speaker003:] but at the same time they shouldn't just be looking at the subjects in isolation [speaker005:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] they should be actually looking forward to what, if I do these [speaker005:] They're gonna do. [speaker003:] subjects what will that then lead me into? [Rod:] Right. [speaker005:] Mm mm. [Rod:] There's the process of evaluating what's happening and that's [speaker003:] Mhm mm. [Rod:] important. [speaker003:] And er I I would honestly put it in the, in the March period... it's on the second [speaker006:] Can I ask [speaker003:] half of the spring term. [speaker006:] do you know Ta I I know Tyneside [speaker005:] See I find [speaker006:] i side in in the... the er... thing for Edinburgh University, you know when they do their... careers choice... their jobs and interests information guide from the Edinburgh? They're doing what they call a job wise... which is probably som something, they fill in a... questionnaire which say whatever [Rod:] I think that's coming in now... things that you can [speaker006:] Cos you have... erm... is normally four, four, sorry... tenth and eleventh years in sixth formers, and they've also got a subject choice... section as well, which I have used in the past... for ninth years and... it wa, it just got them thinking about things in a completely different way from what we, they've ever done [Rod:] Mm. [speaker006:] before... and I, I thought the cho, the subject choice was er... was good. [speaker002:] So? [Rod:] Can't give you an answer... sorry! [speaker006:] And I just wondered [Rod:] I've heard of Jigcar [speaker006:] Yeah I just wo, just [speaker004:] Trish wa, mentioned it to you. [Rod:] Mm? [speaker004:] Trish mentions it. [speaker003:] Ah. You see [Rod:] Yeah. [speaker003:] the thing, the thing though [Rod:] Mm. [speaker003:] I just wonder whether nor, if North Tyneside have got a contract there is absolutely no reason why [speaker006:] There is reason, I mean that sort of thing [speaker003:] why we should use it. [speaker006:] I mean the filling in of the form and that and, you know, which... you in, you know what grades you've got, you're interests, what you think you're good at, what you'd like, you know the [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker006:] all that, and then the computer analyses and comes up with areas of where they think you might be [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker006:] whereas considering the co the jo families and [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker006:] and things, job families... er, we've got that already and we've got, there's gonna be the computer thing on careers... but you see we've only managed... this year... to get it brought down from year eleven, somebody who went into this, keeping it very close to myself, to bring it down to year ten... they're actually... you know, it's very, very difficult to let them remove it and I can't see that you can then make that down to ninth year just yet. It's [speaker005:] But subject choice is a completely separate thing to the careers [speaker006:] Section of it. [speaker005:] cho [speaker003:] Yeah! [speaker005:] choice. [speaker003:] Mm [speaker005:] You know, I had to go and... and get trained in a separate [speaker006:] Mhm. [speaker005:] course to do it. Anyway [speaker006:] I just wondered that was all. Oh yeah. [speaker005:] I i if we [speaker003:] You know that [speaker005:] if we've got [speaker003:] that was one part that [Rod:] Take a note that's avenue for you to explore. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker005:] That, that is one part of the tutorial programme, the ninth year that you can't change [speaker003:] Mm mm. [speaker005:] It has to be... er, that particular trend. [Rod:] It certainly needs to be in that term. [speaker005:] Ya. [Rod:] It can afford to be a bit later... but I don't se, I don't see that the [speaker005:] Well I can remember then the last year when I was in the ninth year we did it in that half term, it wasn't the first [Rod:] It was always, it was [speaker005:] part. [Rod:] It was always before half term. I've always done it [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] before half term. I've always done it before half term! [speaker005:] Alri ee ee it! [Rod:] I'd have had it tied up but then... staffing was constant, you knew what courses [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] you were gonna be offering [speaker005:] Right. [Rod:] as Sandra says we've done it twice this year. [speaker003:] We had to do it later and later. [Rod:] I was ru run ragged! [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] Last term then [speaker005:] However... never mind! The thing is, I can't do the environment, well it's not that I can't do it... when I was talking to er... to the tuto... the form tutors yesterday... er... they're biggest keen... I think Catherine had happened to notice some work that Sandra had done... that she found er, interesting enough and where the kids should be knowing about, it was about banking... how to sign a cheque, how to look after finances... erm... you know, do I have to... buy... a pair of trainers because it's got Reebok on them, this sort of thing. And that caught the interest of everyone straight away er, budgeting, how to be able to look at banking etcetera, and I said well... and I want you to do that first so I don't mind... mainly because I was gonna work wi with Anne about the, with the environments, and then it's science, couldn't cover with the with the environment that she would like me in tutorial to do... and er... she... hasn't, well it's not her now, unfortunately, I think it's Sue... that is supposed to be working with me... cos I want to do something on recycling of rubbish etcetera within the school and do a big sort of er... project on it. Plus... within my environmental thing I would like to be able to see if we can get four areas within the school... and what I was thinking about, not the big areas outside in the gardens etcetera... but do you know as you walk along from our corridor up past the dining hall... and there's that little bit of enclosed space [speaker002:] Which is a [speaker005:] a total mess that looks horrific! [speaker003:] Oh yes! [speaker005:] And there's another bit... by the science block... and there's another bit... I can't remember now where... but there was three areas that I suddenly identified, I'm thinking it's grotty, it looks awful [speaker003:] When you're clearing up for lunch look out the window it's the enclosed garden. [speaker005:] That's right. [speaker004:] Oh yeah! [speaker005:] Can we not do something [Rod:] And the Japanese [speaker005:] maybe give it a class project in the six or eight weeks that that particular er class is looking at the environment, again, from school, cos remember we've got the bins and we've got little er [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] they're improvements that I started with ninth year. So let's say we can say if we can get the kids to look at improvements on that way. Now, they're not too bad, the form tutors agreed... the trouble is though I've got one in English... George... which is not too far away... one in science but it's that end of science [speaker003:] And Catherine. [speaker005:] and Catherine... now, Catherine is ideal because... she opens her double doors and she's out into a garden space... you know? And she likes that garden and she doesn't mind working... for something on that. I think that, you know... George wouldn't mind... er, and... Maria wouldn't mind, maybe it's Martin trying to find for... for our Martin. [Rod:] One of the problems is... you ne, it's alright saying something on the environment, you have to tighten up what it is you're gonna do. If it's practical how you're gonna occupy twenty kids... what resources [speaker005:] I've got it remember? That er... I sent away. [Rod:] Right. [speaker005:] You know? [Rod:] So, well that's alright. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] And you're time of year... cos if you [speaker005:] This is the thing you see now [Rod:] If you're gonna be wanting to plan [speaker005:] cos if you're gonna looking at [Rod:] if you're gonna want [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] to grow things you've gotta do it at a specific time... if you're gonna wanna plan [speaker005:] And this is why I want to. [Rod:] if you're gonna plan bare rooted trees and stuff you've gotta be doing it in the dormant season, so you're talking October, November... possibly October. [speaker005:] Well this is... this is what I was trying to work out... looking at the banking erm... module that Sia, Sandra's just given me... could for the nine weeks... right? So therefore, if this term I've got one, two, three, four, five weeks roughly left... and I know that sometimes... erm... what's that? Oh that's November, December... can we not be doing something... in those five weeks on the environment? And then continue with it... later on in the year [Rod:] It's up to you! It's your... ee, as far I'm concerned I'm asking you to tell me what you're gonna do! [speaker005:] But you've gotta tell me which is the best season, say... if I wannit to flower! [speaker002:] Well what do you wanna do? If you wanna put plants in you can't... you can't do it before ar... before March. [speaker005:] Right. So you do it [speaker004:] There is one [speaker005:] after you're [speaker002:] You've gotta, you're talking about, yeah. [speaker005:] Beginning of the summer term. [speaker002:] After Easter basically. [Rod:] Yo... you see talked about recycling. [speaker005:] You can't do that in the Christmas one? [speaker002:] No. [Rod:] Co conservation planting er, is not recycling! I mean I... you've gotta be clear what it is you actually want to do. [speaker007:] The environment is what she said! [speaker005:] See, Sue hasn't come back to me, the science department hasn't come to me so I'm not, I may leave that... and say, and do something like that next year in a module... or wait until I've finished again... I don't mind, that's still something in my mind which I would like to do... but because talking to the form tutor's, what I had written down... as a fait a complet... erm... they're not... too keen... so therefore I opened up and say you know, which particular things they were interested in... the banking one they are very interested in... the environment one, yes, within the school tidy upping area that they would like to do... but I've gotta be able to, and I don't when planting season is or... if I wanna put, be able to put flowers in... etcetera, you see what I mean? [Rod:] Mm. [speaker003:] You could do your planting there in that last five weeks there you could think about doing actually doing about... er, about [speaker005:] The. [speaker003:] recycling. [speaker005:] Aha. Yeah. [speaker003:] Well you can't go out then cos it'll be snowing right [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I mean, so therefore, it's gotta be... more a, of a... erm [speaker005:] A recycling. [speaker003:] a per, you know... a a theoretical thing innit? [speaker005:] Well it, it could be, well it could [speaker003:] or writing to [speaker005:] Oh writing inside. [Rod:] Well you see that, that that's one of reasons why we're all sitting doing it cos Terry's just said... and I've got an environment thing, now that doesn't mean it's wrong. [speaker004:] No. Alright. [Rod:] Cos there's no reason why you can't have two projects on [speaker004:] No. [Rod:] the go, and they'll change almost [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] by definition cos they're [speaker004:] Right, right. [Rod:] two years older... and they can do lots of other things [speaker004:] Oh different [speaker005:] One year older. [Rod:] So I'm... still [speaker003:] actually. [Rod:] not happy that we've got time allocated [speaker004:] prompting you. [Rod:] and I'm putting on the spot [speaker004:] I'd like you to start a bit earlier. [Rod:] and all I'm gonna say, I'm not gonna ask you to say well I might, I might, I might... you need to have sorted out exactly what you're doing in there... whilst you give [speaker002:] Mm. [Rod:] tutors the chance to say what they've gotta do, you gotta be careful about complete negotiation... there's an element of deciding that's what we're gonna do and we're gonna do it and it's gotta be spelt out for them. [speaker005:] Oh they can't give me any more. [speaker003:] Get you a programme. [speaker005:] It was yesterday was that, only ten people come [speaker003:] Get you a programme at tenth minute. [speaker005:] forward with, Catherine came forward with banking. [speaker003:] Six thirty? [Rod:] So you've given her o so now you're into saying, get onto it! I mean [speaker005:] Without me... yeah. [Rod:] But one of the things that always we we don't... Dave did a project a couple of years on consumer awareness which I think [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] went... brought newspapers in and all sorts of [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] things... that went down a bundle! [speaker002:] Well [Rod:] You had a great time with it! [speaker002:] Oh certainly, yeah! They [Rod:] Your your classes ninth [speaker002:] they were very good! [Rod:] years weren't they? Er, Tracey and that lot was it not them as ninth years or something? [speaker002:] Tenth year. [speaker005:] Tenth year. [speaker002:] Tenth year, yeah. Yep! [Rod:] Which we haven't picked up on and perhaps, right... so... but you need that firmed up that's all I can say to you. [speaker003:] No, and I can give you a fair deal pack, remember... on consumer rights? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Which might fill in those five weeks if you want it. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] You can do money management... I mean, and then go onto consumer... affairs. [speaker005:] Consumer right, right. [Rod:] That's right... you know. [speaker003:] And that takes your winter term and then you can,yo your clearing could be done... starting [speaker005:] In the summer. [speaker003:] turn round the spring and the summer if you want. [Rod:] Can I just say as we, one of the reasons we're talking through this if you have something that yo, ah that might be useful! Will you please share it! What I don't wa, I know it's handy sometimes you think, ah that covers a lot of things for me... and you may have come across something yourself... I'll... the there is a key, there should be a key to those things in my cupboard, those lifelines things... not the same as cha, I've got all sorts of ideas that you might pick out and say right we can use that as a lesson... you might even just say well sod copyright I'm gonna photocopy that and I'll use it! Please look in them, just browse through the front cos [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] what I've tried to do is not to... and we've had the money, is to buy one in each set... cos we haven't got the money to buy full sets, thirty books is a joke! And I shall deny ever ha... [whispering] []. [speaker002:] You're not got it they don't do one [speaker005:] I've got copyright there. [speaker002:] send it. [Rod:] I've actually said it now, and it's down in... black and white or... red and green or whatever! But, do you know what I mean? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] Not that you've ever [Rod:] It's about looking [speaker006:] done that before! [Rod:] No, never ever! [speaker004:] No. [Rod:] No! [speaker004:] We must stop talking about that. [Rod:] But there are resources [speaker002:] Not in books. [Rod:] there and... I know they're not... great, but the there's quite a lot in them isn't them. [speaker006:] If you do your environmental recycling I've got a thing that I took out of a magazine that's got all the addresses of erm... of of the various thing for recycling paper [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker006:] waste products... all sorts of stuff like [speaker003:] There's a [speaker006:] that. [speaker003:] And it's just, you know [Rod:] Well there's that green and grey thing that I keep passing onto [speaker005:] I've got it. [Rod:] you! There's another one... I've got another here actually cos it's been [speaker003:] I'll tell you what's in... the there's that school's... curriculum industry fi si simulation on the dustbin game. It's an environment, and it's actually an activity that goes on in the classroom. It [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker003:] gives you the resources, and tell the teacher how to manage it... it's all about the, and it's that, you know it's not... listen, it is actually [speaker005:] What's it called. [speaker003:] I've got a copy of it... the dustbin game. [speaker005:] [whispering] Dustbin game []! [speaker003:] Remember we looked at it, it's an environmental awareness on [Rod:] Oh... somewhere in the back of my mind. But at the end of the da, I'm sorry if I keep com, I want a heading and I I don't [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] want ages... I don't stacks written up [speaker004:] But we'll get that now. [Rod:] but I do [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] need an outline. Gotta present it saying that this is what's happening. [speaker005:] I had one, as I said... I had it all. [speaker002:] You haven't [Rod:] Okay. [speaker002:] yet... what will happen towards the end of the year for... reporting on these after the SATS... will that effect her tutorial at all? [speaker007:] Oh yeah! [speaker002:] I mean, she's gotta watch that. [speaker007:] It's fourteen year olds isn't it? [speaker003:] Main modules do you take that for science tests as well? [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker003:] Well we often lose a er a year [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker003:] for a module for a [Rod:] Just stuck it there to stop the door opening [speaker005:] testing. [Rod:] but er... what? [speaker003:] Not at all,the they ta, they take nine tutorial for science... tests wouldn't we? [speaker005:] They have... [speaker002:] Where? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker005:] If they missed a one [speaker003:] Not all year [speaker002:] Well if they've [speaker003:] groups gone out. [speaker002:] No the [speaker005:] Oh! [speaker002:] no, only through the headmasters... only, and that was er originally when we always exams at the same time and that was done as a school policy... not science department! Exam [speaker003:] English department did it last term. [speaker002:] Yeah yeah. We've got certain rules that say... all children must sit certain exams at certain times, it hasn't been possible to do it in the labs [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] and it used to get bounced [speaker004:] Well [speaker002:] around the subjects. Sometimes it was ours have been [speaker003:] There are, it was English wasn't it? [speaker002:] sometimes it was maths. [Rod:] Yes. I have [speaker002:] But [Rod:] to say the situation has improved dramatically because I have said if we're gonna [speaker006:] I know [yawn] [Rod:] give tutorial credence it can't just be assumed you can take them out of tutorial and it has stopped tremendously. [speaker005:] But the head does it! [Rod:] Oh. [speaker002:] Anyway, to get back to what I said [speaker003:] Hold your breath! [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] you would have more information... on that than Milvia would have for that, after they done the SATS and they're marked... reports have to be sent out, we must report at the end of key stage three. Milvia certainly wouldn't have a clue what a report looks like cos I don't! [speaker005:] I don't. [speaker003:] Nobody [speaker007:] No. [speaker003:] else knows. [speaker002:] Not, mean just [Rod:] We have just... er er [LAUGHTER]... spent two hours looking at a report... whether that will be the report we'll use at that particular time needs to be agreed yet. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] It may well be [speaker006:] You mean you didn't have an agreement Mr? [Rod:] Well, we've got a report designed. It may well be we decide all we're gonna send home is... the result of the SATS, and it may just be a sheet with the subject names on and levels in, full stop. It may well be that we send what we consider to be the fuller report there. [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] All we have to do is report... to the parents once a year... it doesn't say that everything has to be on the report sheet at the same time... it may well be some information goes at one particular time and some at another. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'm sure it says a written comment must be made for each subject. [speaker005:] It doesn't say here. [Rod:] But that, it doesn't say after the SAT, the written comment can be made... er, where we send er D and I reports home at the moment, i.e.... er, just after half term in the second term. Doesn't say at the end of the year, I don't think. [speaker002:] Well I will ask on behalf of Milvia. [Rod:] But we'll we'll... I mean, that's gotta be [speaker002:] But I will ask on behalf of Milvia what does everybody feel about that? [speaker005:] About what? [speaker002:] Well I would prefer to make the comment about how a childs done in the SAT at the end of key stage three than... than February time. [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker003:] Can I make the point that if you don't get to the parents of kids... kids, before the end of summer term you could be jeopardising... the chances of what they're doing... in the SATS... because if you get to the parent... erm... in the beginning of the spring term and say... you know, Fred is not doing particularly well because of this... the parents are then in a position to do something about it... but if you actually tell them once, basically the stable doors closed... what can [speaker002:] Oh I [speaker003:] they do? [speaker002:] quite agree. [speaker003:] So I think [Rod:] See what [speaker003:] the fuller report and the contact with the parents should be happening prior to that stage. [Rod:] But one of the problems [LAUGHTER] is []... you're also reporting on year seven and eight then... at [speaker002:] Yes. [Rod:] the moment... you're now saying we've gotta do a full report on year nine... and you're [speaker005:] Mm mm. [Rod:] just at the start of G C S E exams. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] Now... you're alright, that's... everything should happen there... but it is not physically impossible... but it's gonna put staff under a lot of stress and we're gonna have to play the game... of making it workable. I mean it's typical government policy, bang, there it is now you lot sort it out! And I agree with you entirely it would nice there [speaker003:] No. [Rod:] but I think the reality is we'll probably end up with the detailed report there... and SATS results sent home afterwards. [speaker002:] That fine but it's not helping [Rod:] I think. [speaker002:] Milvia now! [speaker003:] We're on the same side, that's what I've just said! You get, you get to the parents at stage in the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] game so they can have an effect on the child... so that the outcome is better... if you just... if you don't get to them till there the child's done the SATS and it's over [Rod:] Right [speaker003:] and done with. [Rod:] but whether that meets... what the government expects of us I'm not exactly sure... because whether they want the written report at the sa [speaker003:] Won't change till next year anyway! [Rod:] Well it probably won't. [speaker002:] I know it's just laid down as as... sheet as to what you're supposed to put down and all sorts but I can't remember exactly how detailed it's gotta be. See, if it's just a one statement SAT [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] then the departments will do and Milvia get it... and that's it, she'll have nothing to do! [speaker003:] Oh sorry about this but [speaker002:] Cor! [speaker003:] are you going? [speaker005:] No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker005:] It's a meeting. [Rod:] Okay. [speaker002:] Sumalia. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Beafra it used to be innit? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] It used to be Beafra picking the flies off the trees. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] Right... are we okay then? Where are we at? Er [speaker002:] Milvia's finished. [speaker005:] Year eight. [speaker004:] Right, must be me. [speaker005:] And then [Rod:] Terry? [speaker005:] I've got one more module left [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker005:] sorry... [speaker002:] You carry on. [speaker005:] that I wanted to do something about safety or first aid... and that's it. [speaker002:] Oh [Rod:] But, did you not talk [speaker002:] da [Rod:] about doing safety or first aid? [speaker003:] Mine's [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] year ten, it's year nine [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh well [] [speaker005:] Year nine will be doing something different. [speaker003:] I'm doing mine to start off with. [Rod:] Okay, well... so you need to be [speaker005:] Cos I was talking to Lilian, she was thinking that each year she'd be given an update... it should be a five year... plan. [Rod:] Right, but what needs to happen is... if we continue like this we're gonna be re-inventing the wheel every year and making a lot of work for yourselves. [speaker003:] Yeah. Can I ma [Rod:] And that's what's happening at the moment, because we're not sitting down and saying, I mean, this is my worry about... oh we might do this there, that's why I want it tightened up because at the end of the day... we start, we have various modules at a later date, two, three years time whatever we might decide to sling out... but it should really be designed, worked upon so that the incoming person can use it as a basis... given their... limitations [speaker003:] Mm mm. [Rod:] or abilities and build on it... cos at the moment everybody's re-inventing the wheel and you're making a lot of work in my opinion. [speaker003:] Well perhaps to... se se se... er, you know... streamline or rationalise what we're doing... I mean... you know, we can we've asked... that we actually hand you in our... section on this, right? If it's put together on one sheet... er... we can actually sa sa say right this is what we're gonna do this term. When we've actually given you the full thing in, the minutes, the mights, and where and whatever, you can look at it... and say... hey, there's too much of that... but what we're addressing is... the moral... aspect of a child's upbringing that perhaps we should be... and say well right fine... er, it might, I'm just taking on environmental, right, now the year children to do environment there, but it's really happening down there, I feel that these children in the past haven't he so... can we... take that out this year and bring in something totally new, totally different that you feel should go in... erm... so that it is more rationalised it's not just my people doing what they want... when you see the, the whole thing you can make suggestions and we come back and go back through it again... we actually say to the form teachers... this is what... this will definitely happen for this... term... but when we've looked at the whole five year sa side... we might change some things. The other aspect I was gonna suggest is... I mean, I've said of stuff of the environment, Terry's not... if we take topics... and we say right there's a... I mean, I've got these boxes I will... donate... you know, like letter, you know... lo lo boxes... which can be labelled and all the information on environment goes in there... so that perhaps, we made up, you know plastic, hard plastic.... [Rod:] So you're a, sort of under a topic under a theme heading? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] So it's in year ten, Sandra does it er... does it... you did that for safety in the home? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker005:] Where Ann wrote it for last year, for my ri [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] you know, for last years. [speaker003:] Mm. But if we put, if I put box up the name of safety... of tha, er but make a point of the next time getting all in, in and put into that... and copies. [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Then it's all there together. [Rod:] Yeah I, one of the, yeah... yeah, I to started off doing a little bit like that but [LAUGHTER] you find things don't [] actually sit in categories very well... that's... becomes one of the problems. [speaker003:] What's that, that's issues book is right idea wasn't that [Rod:] Yep. [speaker003:] that was just issues one. [Rod:] Yep. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Rod:] I know. [speaker003:] And then that's the one that you gave us... copies cos you had... you said you were gonna get five [Rod:] Mm. [speaker003:] five copies of of that. [Rod:] I've got that somewhere, who's got that? Have I handed those [speaker006:] You have. [speaker002:] You want what? [speaker003:] No, we've only got that. We haven't got the book. [speaker002:] Well I've got the book [speaker006:] We, you only gave us the themes. [speaker003:] Where's the book? [Rod:] Got the book. [speaker003:] But they're the ones I ordered, do you order those under S M B? [Rod:] Can't remember. [speaker002:] Yeah, the book [Rod:] I thought we'd got those books, I've put them in the cupboard haven't I? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, I've seen the books. [Rod:] The books are there. [speaker002:] Yeah, the books are there. [Rod:] You have a look in the cupboard, I keep telling you to look in the [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] cupboard! You go to cupboard and look! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Okay! Terry? [speaker004:] Right... year eight. What I've done is... just taken over from Catherine last year on her topics which... er, seem to quite successful... and I certainly know that Marian did them last year and found them good. The first one was community... and I know, erm... that Catherine wasn't very happy about the community side of things and I've looked at the... the pamphlet things and it needs updating a little bit so I took the fact that the Royal Quay's were down at our doorstep... and... contacted Linda... who was extremely helpful... and she's put together... erm, a package of things along with me, I went down last week... and the first week... the ninth is going to be explaining... to the classes what we're going to be doing, each form teacher... will be able to do that... and the sixteen and the twenty third there are visits down to the Royal Quay's Education Centre... erm... for which [Rod:] Can we we'll walk down to that? [speaker004:] No. [speaker006:] No. [speaker004:] which is paid for by... Royal Quays [speaker006:] Oh [Rod:] A grant. [speaker004:] I believe two coaches... erm, one for the R group and one for the G group [speaker005:] Is this September you said? [speaker004:] And that's in September [speaker005:] Sixteenth [speaker004:] sixteenth and the twenty third. [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker004:] When one of the groups is down there... the Mediwell Police Unit are coming up to to to talk to two groups, I thought it was better to talk to [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] two than four... about their input under the Mediwell... and then after that, on the thirtieth... Linda's coming... up to school... erm... and we're going to actually... well, Eleanor's in English... and Paul's in his room, Cath will be in with the tutors and Paul will come into my classroom... that particular time she can go round all the groups and discuss what they've thought. She's also produced... very kind of her... erm, a questionnaire about the Royal Quays... erm... to take home to their parents and grandparents to bring back... and about, probably get a couple of copies of that... and then when they've done that... the seventh and fourteenth... she's going to, or we're gonna select two pupils from each of the classes to go out with her, one group to go into the middle of North Shields [Rod:] Thanks dear. [speaker004:] to ask questions about... what the Royal Quay's are gonna be about... and a group to go into the Mediwell itself. Now, I volunteered to go into the Mediwell because I'm... I don't like it down there... and er, Linda will go into... the centre of New into the centre of North Shields with a particular person... a a form teacher or whatever, probably. When they're doing that... others will be collating the information and hopefully er, the television cameras, B B C have expressed an interest in coming down and so have the newspapers... to actually do... erm... some sort of documentary on that, and put a display up in the school... and also down at the Royal Quays... just linked to us. [Rod:] Right. [speaker004:] So that's that particular, that's that first half term. It may go on after half term... because she may not be able to come down on those two days, if that happens... then I'll have other back up material for them [Rod:] Right. [speaker004:] to do. Erm, she asked if we were very keen to involve the school, I said yes we were... cos she said nobody really taken a great interest in the Royal Quays not [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] that they hadn't but... schools, particularly high schools and I said well we were very interested as part of the... the programme here... because it was community... erm... not geography, because she's a geographer... and she says the geography side of it's fine... she will use information that the children collect... for her benefit, but she'll also use us... you know, to define the information but she [Rod:] Mm. [speaker004:] would also recognise that we've done it with her... not purely and simply just because we've been down. So, she's very keen, so she's coming in quite a bit erm, over the first half term... and she hopes that'll continue... during the year, not particularly with just the year eight people but maybe get other people to involve themselves as well. So that's the first term. That's... quite simple... erm... and that's organised and done, she's quite happy to do [Rod:] Good! [speaker004:] that. [Rod:] Great! Sounds, that sounds quite exciting! [speaker004:] The... after half term... erm... the programme is enterprise... and I know Catherine has lots... lots of booklets here on it... and I'm gonna just update... bits and pieces and I see there's some [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] things in there, the issues, and [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] it's got er [Rod:] You did a smashing thing on [speaker004:] to be worked out. [Rod:] Christmas didn't you? [speaker004:] That's right, Christmas decorations. [Rod:] Yeah! [speaker004:] So obviously I'll be asking... well I'll be asking Catherine how to do things [Rod:] But the heading is enterprise but it's open ended enough [speaker004:] Well, yeah [Rod:] for the form [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] tutors to do their own thing? [speaker004:] for the form, yeah. That's right. Erm [speaker006:] I mean last year some, some of them did just sort of a paper exercise whereby the [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] they worked out, and for example how you would organise a trip to er, Flamingo Land or something like that... and and [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] all, everything that would be in involved... and er... but buts... a lot of the, what we did was, you know, erm... just how you would... er ta... erm... how you would try and start there and and decorate a place and make it look better... which again, is part of your environment [speaker005:] Environment [speaker006:] thing... but we linked it right into Christmas decorations and how they would build them... and... how they'd make them, and how difficult it was... and... to to actually make something that... looked... er, reasonably good [Rod:] Mm. [speaker006:] to put up in your room, let alone, something that was reasonably enough, enough that people may wanna pay money for. [Rod:] Mm. [speaker006:] You know and and it actually sort of, it made them really sort of think about quality and excellence and su and stuff like that which [Rod:] Mm. [speaker006:] er, I felt was... was very very valuable. [speaker002:] [singing] [] [speaker004:] I was down at T V I as well borrowing their video camera and er... Margaret said that she'd be quite keen to come involved as well if I want any help from her [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] so... I took the offer because she she she offered [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] so er... so I said, oh well fine, so I'll I'll leave options open. [Rod:] Well, again it's no bad thing if i i [speaker004:] They're not, no not erm [Rod:] it might well be that one of the one of the forms could go down there to have a morning as part of this project to do [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] carry out some particular activity. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's right. [Rod:] I mean it's it's a dimension you can bring into it. [speaker004:] She offered that. After... that's the spring term we're into now, after Christmas... erm... health... now... there was... there are packages and Catherine gave them to me... on personal hygiene, things like that... and I think Paul... erm... I know he would be keen he said, he'd be keen to maybe put a package together with the help of all the form teachers... plus myself and maybe do a bit into health, cos I mean you know it's it's [Rod:] Oh great! [speaker004:] and then you also pick that room and things like that just to demonstrate how that can be used [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] Mm. [speaker004:] for health. Er, I don't wanna put the onus on Paul to do that, I I've asked and said I... he said he'd be queen, you know be ke, that was before... the [Rod:] Mm. [speaker004:] summer, so I'll do that... with him. Then I've got the environment... which again, comes right the way through until erm... just before half, well just after half term [speaker002:] That's week thirty three [speaker004:] before half term. [speaker002:] is it Terry? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker004:] That's up to the fifth, the fifth. Erm... there are again... there is information, there's lots of packages on environment there's boo, booklets on it which Catherine gave to me... and I think I need to think about specific areas in the school like Milvia's doing but not to overlap if Milvia does think about that, to try something else, some other way. Er, there is an environmental officer... for the North Tyneside Council who goes into schools and di and discusses things as well, there's there's there somebody [speaker003:] But I I [speaker004:] actually on the on the [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker004:] council who do that... and er, they're quite happy to take you round all the er, take you down to the incinerator and see what happens, where all your different bits and pieces go. [Rod:] What happened to the Keep Britain Tidy group, they were re-named? They used [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] to have er [speaker004:] Right. [Rod:] school support er [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah. [Rod:] people [speaker004:] I can't remember where they are but they [speaker005:] I never re realised we're doing a module in the eighth year was environment, I always thought it was always the ninth year? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker005:] Is this new new or was it the last year? [speaker004:] No, no I'm su, well this this work is all from Christine! That's all Christine 's work as well, who went o [speaker002:] That's two years ago! [speaker004:] two years ago now mind! [Rod:] Mm, you see that's why we're sharing it! [speaker007:] We didn't we didn't [speaker004:] Er [speaker007:] do environment last year because we were into.... [speaker004:] Ah wa well... you see, now what I've done here is [speaker005:] isn't it? [speaker004:] Well the environment bit there... erm... but I've missed out readathon [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] Right. [speaker005:] That that we did [speaker004:] So that's why I've had to fit in. [Rod:] Well [speaker005:] that we did [speaker004:] this... I haven't [Rod:] That's right. [speaker004:] bothered with the readathon, but then [speaker005:] The whole readathon. [speaker004:] again, you know... er... but that's the environment. Then it comes up to erm... the twelfth of May [speaker006:] Sorry, when was that environment, from where from [speaker003:] On [speaker004:] That's from [speaker006:] week twenty two [speaker004:] that's week, that's the third of the third [Rod:] Second half term. [speaker004:] Second half term. [speaker003:] Right, cos so it's that [speaker006:] Only, so it's one, two, three, four, five weeks? [speaker004:] Five, yeah and then I sort of could extend it [speaker003:] in English [speaker004:] alright, into the summer term but if necessary, but I think it will be five from what I can gather. [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Then... obviously it's statements to parents and depending on what happens there because the parent's evening and I've put down here the fir, eighth year parents into the sixth of July... and judging, working back from weeks that we'll need... to collect information it could bring you right back into the twelfth [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] of May, so we'll need one, two [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker004:] three [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] four, five, at least six weeks to do that... then after that I've [Rod:] I I've assumed that we'll be doing a review and I think [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] looking at it I've allowed... one, two, three, four tutorial weeks [speaker004:] That's right. [Rod:] for collation [speaker004:] That's right. [Rod:] so prior, prior to that the deadline will probably be for [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] half term for subject specifics or [speaker004:] That's right. [Rod:] immediately [speaker004:] That's right. [Rod:] after half term. [speaker004:] That's right. I've... these are just ideas. I mean I'll give one of these to each of my form teachers so they know, they're gonna write in bits and pieces whatever they want to know. [speaker003:] Actually Terry, do you have a blank sheet with just the dates? [speaker004:] No I haven't. [speaker003:] No, you've actually got [speaker004:] No, I ju I did [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker004:] actually... I did after. [speaker003:] Cos that, I mean that's the sort of thing which... we get over the problem [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker003:] that... you worrying about... and it me means a bit more work for us [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] but if we actually said blow by blow what you're supposed [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] to be doing. [speaker004:] I'm also putting on here [speaker005:] I think so. [speaker003:] If that's an idea. [speaker004:] all the planning facilities [Rod:] could right [speaker004:] as well. [speaker007:] Well but that's why I like this one, you know the one that you did? [speaker003:] Mm mm. [Rod:] The master ones. [speaker007:] I I work from that and give out to form. [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker007:] I still like that one, I know it's a smaller [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker007:] thing, it's an [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker007:] A four [speaker003:] I like it. [speaker006:] I like [Rod:] But [speaker006:] Terry's because you can write everything on it. [Rod:] you can wri, they can write on it, I can [speaker007:] Yeah. [Rod:] see why. Can I, could I say to you that I think that would be a good thing to do Terry. [speaker003:] That's a super idea! [speaker004:] Well I can do another one if you want. I mean do another one. [Rod:] But could I suggest [speaker003:] A blank. [Rod:] you do a blank Terry? [speaker004:] Yeah, I'll do a blank [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] one yeah. [Rod:] And... er, what I also like about it is,a as Sandra's just said and you've just said you put in things like [speaker003:] Parents. [Rod:] important dates [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] that are agreed [speaker002:] I've put the planning things in instead of what the, what it's gonna be [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] for the [Rod:] I think that's a damn good idea! [speaker002:] Now just a thought that I did. [Rod:] No I think that's excellent! [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] If you did a blank that would be a value Dave. [speaker002:] Right, I'll do that. Alright. [Rod:] Mm? [speaker004:] And the last three weeks I've put on road safety... because I know there's a lot of road safety stuff [speaker003:] Oh yeah! [speaker004:] and read up to the summer [Rod:] Okay. [speaker004:] holidays when they're gonna be on holiday, so I thought well that'll be [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and that could be the er... the [speaker003:] Yes that [speaker004:] and the things you've got plenty on, and plus [speaker003:] Right. [speaker004:] the things that are in [speaker003:] The class file. [Rod:] You see the the the other thing there is... when you're actually doing reviewing and stuff yo yo you you do... I know review er profiling [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] cos that's the process, it still is the [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] process in there... but you actually could do with something that youngsters... wo work sheets, word quizzes whatever [speaker004:] Mm. [Rod:] perhaps on a theme that they can get on with... while [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] form tutors are talking [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] to individuals [speaker003:] If they want to. [Rod:] or when form tutors need [speaker003:] Ah. [Rod:] some support, you're going in or... you're using one of the policy [speaker003:] Right. [Rod:] group to go in and to spell them so they can talk to individual kids. [speaker007:] Well you see what we're do, what we did last year... was that there [speaker003:] Sorry! [speaker007:] was erm... Terry... and supposedly Bill and supposedly... Colin, or between were, were looking after the rest of the year [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker007:] groups [speaker004:] He's never done it before. [speaker007:] while... we had er er [speaker004:] Aye? [speaker007:] maybe half a dozen kids it worked out that Terry actually was looking after year seven and year eight while all the tutors [speaker004:] That was year [speaker007:] had [speaker004:] eight. [speaker007:] erm... maybe half a dozen kids... doing the written work... talking individually to the member of staff, so you didn't have twenty odd kids all in [speaker005:] Talking [speaker007:] All at the same time, all [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker007:] talking, all messing each other bits up, you had about six spread round your room... for that time, and it was so good and we got through it so quick, there were so few mistakes... because you only ever had... six maximum kids in your room at once at that was only because Terry... offered to put on a video... an and [Rod:] Occupy. [speaker007:] occupy the rest of your class [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker007:] while you got on with [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] the nitty gritty and it really [speaker004:] And the form teacher actually said who they [speaker007:] works! [speaker004:] wanted next. [Rod:] Right, but perhaps what we should do now is... in-bill that... get your policy group member to agree it, even line your video up... and so they are committed and you put it on paper so all the form tutors see that and the head or whoever it is is committed at that time to be taking the rest of the year so they can profile. [speaker004:] comments fair that he did, he did come in twice and se the third time he said I'm sorry I had to. [speaker002:] I'm sure he did! [Rod:] You know and [speaker002:] but nobody else knows. [Rod:] the situation is slightly different now... there are other tutors available... and I'm available. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker005:] And I, and I mean... it'll be Terry and I... available at the time cos I [speaker003:] That's good! [speaker005:] I would hire the form you see [speaker003:] And they're talking [speaker004:] That's right [speaker005:] and Catherine had form [speaker003:] Christmas party [Rod:] Mm. [speaker005:] you know, so we were unable to help Terry out [speaker003:] Might even get afoot. [speaker005:] erm, and that's why Colin would [speaker004:] Don't need a not really any good. [speaker005:] and he did say they would have helped Terry if he didn't have all of [speaker003:] He'd got, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah but that's not [speaker005:] the rest of year seven and year eight [speaker004:] start doing as well [speaker005:] but in practice that's not what happened. [speaker004:] What you do and what I do are different. [speaker005:] But in reality that's what was planned. [speaker002:] Well that's right. [speaker005:] And a... from a form teacher's point of view [speaker003:] Have you got your? [speaker005:] it was [Rod:] Well I know, I know you sometimes feel you don't have clout, if it's not happening you gotta come to [speaker004:] Yes. [Rod:] to me and say look I agreed and I will say to the other forms that they've go, they've all got a re a responsibility! [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] And [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] I know it's not easy. [speaker005:] Cos it worked didn't it? [speaker004:] Oh it worked! [speaker005:] From from our points. [speaker002:] Did you not talk... the back of my mind about change to the report system? Because it's becoming... unmanageable... too much paper [Rod:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Is it still gonna be the same [Rod:] No. [speaker002:] layout? Just [speaker003:] Well whatever system we have... we still need time [speaker005:] We'll need time [speaker003:] to put it together. [speaker004:] Time. [Rod:] You will still need ti [speaker003:] But we're still gonna have pupil erm... input [Rod:] I do I [speaker003:] aren't we? [Rod:] What time do we finish here? [speaker003:] Five o'clock. [speaker002:] Half past five. [speaker004:] Five thirty. [Rod:] Ah. [speaker003:] Well we'll finish at six, are you buying the round? [Rod:] Do you mind going on a [speaker004:] I'm booked fo [Rod:] little bit more? Are you booked? [speaker004:] No, I'm booked for a game of croquet at half past five! [speaker002:] Pardon? [Rod:] Aye, I'm sorry, listen you're here to damn well work you're not going off to enjoy [speaker004:] But I'm working! [Rod:] yourself lad! [speaker004:] Aren't we booked for a game of croquet? [speaker002:] No. [speaker004:] I didn't [Rod:] Ah beautiful! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Can I just say, very, very quickly... report system as it stands at the moment I think... it will be, there will now, we will go back to a subject specific report... because we we're obliged to have national curriculum details [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] which will cu that, and they will all go home... that the format has been basically agreed. But we will in a spirit of recording achievement have... a form tutor sheet if you like. We will need,we we'll have to work on this which will involve the philosophy of having... er... perhaps a joint statement and perhaps on putting a short personal statement in. [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] So we've actually... moved the process towards... the the complete er, record of achievement process. [speaker003:] We which I would hope when...... will itemise the qualities and strengths of the child that you want to cover, like when we do personal statements or joint statements in the tenth and eleventh year... that if... the form teacher just can't write... well Fred's worked very well, he's done extremely well in English... we'll actually start to talk about him as an individual and his strengths and weaknesses. [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] Well we now have [speaker003:] But [Rod:] we should have a core a of people who've handled records of achievement and done records of achievement... and they should... you know not everybody has but we should what staff are capable of in terms of doing this has has has moved dramatic... and there's some still who struggle but everybody's getting more and [speaker005:] Bit of that that we do in year ten eleven... can that be transferred down the line... so that there's a similar type of thing [Rod:] Oh yes! [speaker005:] that's being done... using [Rod:] Yes. [speaker005:] similar word... tes, you know, not testing erm... er, commenting on... similar skills etcetera? [Rod:] Yes. Yes. Yes. We spent a lot of time talking about general skill and abi, everybody will still comment on general skills [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] and ability. [speaker005:] Right. [Rod:] But it will be on a ten point scale and it'll be ticky box, ten points [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] cos it refers back to national curriculum. [speaker005:] Mhm. [Rod:] Okay so... er... four, five and six are... average and [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] up to nine and ten [speaker003:] Mm. [Rod:] if anybody gets, and the criteria also [speaker003:] Right. [Rod:] and the general skills and ability. You'll be able to, there will be a form... they'll be a subject tutor comment and then there's leeway within subject areas... for... the child to write a couple of sentences... their [speaker005:] Mhm. [Rod:] own comment... for it to be a negotiated comment, and I've left this to departments cos [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] they need to, or... can't remember third one... it doesn't matter. [speaker005:] Mhm. [Rod:] Teacher, the for, the teacher must comment [speaker005:] Mhm. [Rod:] there is then a choice [speaker005:] Mm. [Rod:] within the department, you don't have to, I would hope everybody could [speaker005:] Yeah [Rod:] would cos that's an [speaker005:] it's just [Rod:] accommodative... recording achievement, not failure [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] recording achievement. [speaker005:] I jus, I think that it is good to actually pin point... you know, the various things that we are definitely moving [Rod:] Yeah... yeah. [speaker005:] and what we think is actually erm [Rod:] I mean it whatever [speaker005:] important in [Rod:] That's right! [speaker005:] ju er er... making a judgement about that individual [Rod:] Well I, that's right [speaker005:] you know. [Rod:] I mean it may well be we'll say in year seven, look the things we're looking for here and I want everybody to comment on is, A... er, how well they've settled down er... how well they're getting on with others... but there's no reason why you can't make those decisions. [speaker005:] Yeah... that's right. [Rod:] You know or [speaker005:] and things like, yeah. [Rod:] do you know what I mean? Cos it'll change from seven to eight [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] and nine cos they expectation's [speaker002:] Mm. [Rod:] different isn't [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] it? [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker005:] But I mean if, if for example we work on punctuality [Rod:] Absolutely! [speaker005:] then then then things like [Rod:] The basic philosophy [speaker005:] that [Rod:] That's right! [speaker005:] whatever we've been working on then, yeah. [Rod:] are reinforced all the way up the school. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Rod:] Yep. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] How we doing? Terry? [speaker004:] Right... well that was it, that [speaker005:] And you end up with loads of paper. [speaker004:] the last three weeks was the road safety one which I thought was [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] was useful and that's [speaker005:] Which actually is something I was thinking about doing with year seven but I mean as it's... it's it's [speaker004:] Well [speaker005:] far enough away in the distance... to to to think about something else. [Rod:] But there is no reason why... you can't alter the slant on it [speaker004:] No, it's. [Rod:] Erm [speaker005:] It's, yeah [speaker004:] Well you said [Rod:] You know you might do road safety with a... with an angle on, I dunno [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well go onto... railway safety, you could ro road safety [speaker005:] Well... well it's us, I mean it's... espec I mean er, over the holidays I heard er... a thing on Radio Newcastle about how the metro [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker005:] has got a special thing where they will come and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] do all these, they will take [speaker002:] have them. [speaker005:] the kids onto the metro well [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] for nor for North Shields and that, that they would er [Rod:] We had that little woman in cor she [speaker005:] cos [Rod:] bored the pants off them! Ooh sorry! She didn't half tire them out! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Anyway [Rod:] I'm tal I'm talking four or five years ago, she was desperate! [speaker003:] Well there you are. [Rod:] Ah ma na! [speaker007:] The guy the train driver was better, when he got up to, he was brilliant [speaker004:] Yeah, oh the train driver was good yes. [speaker007:] with them! [speaker005:] Well the thing is you see I think... wha from what I've... gathered on from the radio programme is that the actual erm... the attitude of the kids to the metro... had got so... much worse that they're having... to do something about it [Rod:] Mm. [speaker005:] and they're having, and [speaker007:] Especially the, yeah. [speaker005:] they've got... but they've got [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker005:] this particular video apparently [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker005:] which is really, you know? [speaker007:] Terrific isn't it [Rod:] Mm. [speaker007:] yes! [speaker005:] Really gory! [speaker007:] Yes, yeah it is, we've seen it, yeah. [speaker005:] and what have you, and it shows you what happens if you use that you get... knocked [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker005:] over by a metro train at various er [speaker007:] Or electrocuted. Mhm [speaker005:] erm... speeds etcetera. [Rod:] Mm. Christ! [speaker005:] And erm [speaker007:] I, I'd be sick [speaker005:] and you know [speaker007:] I couldn't watch that! [speaker002:] Mm. [Rod:] Mm. [speaker005:] so [Rod:] But what I was gonna say if you can... might well be Terry [speaker004:] Wou [Rod:] that work sheets for three weeks to sit alongside yo your road safety thing. [speaker004:] Oh yes! Well I. [Rod:] While people do I dunno I'm just offering that as a suggestion. [speaker004:] Yeah, there's a package there about road safety [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] and a video. [Rod:] Right Marian? [speaker006:] Right [Rod:] You've... Milvia's left you and awful time cos she talked for so long, you've got two and a half minutes. [speaker006:] Right well we, we we begin [speaker005:] ! [speaker006:] erm with just on our basic administration and what have you and doing [Rod:] Right. [speaker006:] all the record cards etcetera. And then we get into settling into school... er, for the first part... and looking at things about coming to a new school school routine, school organisation [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [speaker006:] who are the important people... around school and... you know i... putting names to faces [Rod:] Care [speaker006:] things like that, caretaker [Rod:] caretaker, Mrs [speaker006:] erm... but the... the main thing I'd like to start with... erm... as er in particular with emphasis on... is homework... because [Rod:] Okay. [speaker006:] I think if you don't get their attitude [speaker004:] At the beginning. [speaker006:] to homework in year seven you haven't got a hope in hell [speaker003:] It's a innit? [speaker006:] in the in the erm... the new er the... higher groups. So what I would like to propose... is that I do a homework timetable for year seven... that that homework timetable goes round to all the departments... and that we ask the department to... stick to that timetable as far as they possibly can. I would also like, and I know this is where I'll get problems... I would... if we are gonna try and get the kids into a routine over... them doing their work... I think the easiest routine... for them to have is that you do you, you get, you have your lesson you do your homework that night... and you hand it in the next day. [speaker005:] Mhm. You mean instead of giving it erm [speaker006:] Instead of saying... hand it in next lesson. [speaker005:] next lesson. [speaker006:] Because I don't think that, I mean, given last year's year seven they cannot cope with that! [speaker005:] the pace, no. It has to be done there then. [speaker006:] So I would like to propose that erm er... that we ha have it in that i it comes in the next morning and that the four form teachers know... that last night they have had... languages and history homework. And that they, two people, you know somebody every week will collect in all the languages books and take them along... er, or the language homework and take them along to their language teacher... and the other one will take the history le, homework and take them on to the history teacher, and then they go off to assembly... alright? It will take a matter of minutes once they get into a routine. [speaker004:] Don't usually have. [speaker006:] And then it's up to you know th er it just makes it so much easier for the kids... alright... but it also is much easier for the form teacher... to know who's not bringing in homework... who's... who's you know er erm... and what have you, and I just feel that that... helps the kids get into a routine and it will highlight immediately... the work problem... the kids who have got work problems... or problems about where they're gonna have [Rod:] Right. [speaker006:] having homework space at home... and... and things like that. As, and if [Rod:] But before you... sorry, go on finish. [speaker006:] Sorry! [Rod:] No finish. [speaker006:] But I mean would... that is the the the sort of the thing I would like to put an em... emphasis on... in the first half of... the term. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] Right. [speaker006:] And there's [speaker004:] No chance! [speaker006:] I mean there's all sorts of things wi... in these... er books... erm the erm are they settling in, there's also stuff in there... and... you know, getting to know the staff, getting to know your class school rules, coming to school prepared... what it's like on your first day... er, their first week, what you were worried about when you first came and... coming to scho, fears and realities and all [Rod:] Mm. [speaker006:] this sort of stuff. [Rod:] Can I just sa, I mean Colin used to do the homework timetable for every year, dish it out and everybody ignored it! [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] Wa [speaker006:] But [Rod:] waste, waste of time! I mean it was always there as a defence mechanism so you [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] could say to a parent but look the timetable says [speaker003:] Yeah... just something about it, it's not getting done [Rod:] I [speaker006:] Well [Rod:] what I would suggest is... I mean I I I... I'm not picking that one up quite frankly I suppose but er... you know, people say it's well it's pupil management you possibly [speaker006:] Right. [Rod:] should. Erm... because I think what you're doing's far more valuable, and I was going to say what you sho... what you er er... perhaps a way forward is... to confirm with heads of departments that they will be giving homework [speaker006:] Yep. I've actually... I've written something somewhere [Rod:] because one of the things that been discussed in C A C S is... marking policies, homework policies [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] as part of the overall... er... assessment reporting and recording [speaker006:] Mm [Rod:] procedures, because they are important. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] Sandra? [speaker003:] About the homework bit er... I thought about it the other day and obviously... mine wasn't brought up... we're having a set detention night aren't we? [Rod:] Tuesday nights. [speaker003:] Yeah Tuesday. [speaker004:] Yeah Tuesday nights [speaker003:] Right [speaker004:] yeah. [speaker003:] can I suggest... and I dunno, it might not work... we have a lot of children who find it difficult... to wo... to work at home... could we hold a detention in the resource centre for the hour... so if other children want to use it, I don't know, is it open after school? [speaker005:] It it was [speaker003:] But then we will be there [speaker005:] last term. [speaker003:] so a child could work for an... and do any work they want to in that hour so we're doing a dual role, we're holding a detention there [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] and it's u, there for manning it [Rod:] One of the problems is this thing about some are being punished and have to there [speaker007:] Yeah. [Rod:] and the others are doing voluntaril, doing it voluntarily [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rod:] and I I'm just bothered about [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker005:] There's no differentiation between them. [Rod:] That's right. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] Could we put it [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] to the staff then that they volunteer one night and we do thir, and wa, you would come up once a week every thirty two weeks... to man the library one night a week [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] er, to do homework? Or do [speaker004:] I've worked [speaker003:] resource work? [speaker004:] Mm. I've worked that process once or twice. [speaker003:] Well you're only gonna do it once [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] in thirty two weeks. [Rod:] But wha what about starting it out as a homework night for year seven and eight to start with? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Are we talking about a night... every night of the week or? [speaker003:] No, no one [Rod:] No, no, no one night a week. [speaker003:] one night every week. [speaker002:] One night a week. [speaker004:] What would be the mileage in... I know, homework diaries? Now at th the last school they had these and they were, they're buying from the school shop [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] a lot of kids say to me... have you got your homework? Oh I didn't write it down! If [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] you've got proof, and I used to check it as a form teacher... every, at the end of every week... tick it and sign it... I I only had about what, twenty in the class... used to, every end of every week check and see they're writing their homework down and if any problems came of it... hadn't written it down they were in trouble! [speaker005:] But the kids bought them themselves those? [speaker004:] They brought, either bought them themselves or bought them posed to beworking with me... cos I want to do something on diaries... they've got weekly diary, little [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] little booklets so you [Rod:] Weekly? [speaker004:] write them [speaker003:] Yeah, we had them. [speaker004:] Oh we have do we? [speaker003:] We had them. [speaker002:] But we we we [speaker004:] We had them? [speaker002:] We used to just [Rod:] Mm. [speaker002:] hand out little... blue jotters as well. [speaker004:] Ah no we [speaker003:] Yeah, those [speaker004:] used to, yeah. [speaker003:] little pa those little books. [speaker004:] for anything, I mean not just [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] for homework though [Rod:] You can actually now... I'm sure som so somebody must have the skills... on an A five sheet to have it halved with a an internal diary... er... three of those you're, it's cost you the... five bits of paper and two staples! [speaker003:] And they, lose them quickly... mm. [speaker004:] Mm. [Rod:] But they changed over quickly cos what kids get bored with is if they've got [speaker004:] Mm. [Rod:] a book that's lasting them a term... and they start getting trouble and he gets... you know messed about the the the the they've got this book and it... it reinforces the failure. [speaker003:] What we, well you might want to think of is [Rod:] On a weekly one or fortnightly one I was [speaker003:] erm [Rod:] gonna suggest. [speaker003:] in technology we use a tracking sheet... which is an A four sheet doubled over... and it's got... a er it... the date beginning of the week and then it's, divide into the... the lessons, there's just three boxes [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] that i... when the child comes to you to si, you sign to show they're with you... now, perhaps Cath could amend that... so that you have it... you've actually got the week but five slots for homework [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] on a monthly basis. [speaker004:] Mm. I found the homework, homework diary was useful... because I used to check in, end of every of week they used to know if it wasn't there I'd want to know why it wasn't done! And the form teacher [Rod:] How what did you use then Terry? Did you issue one of the ne little booklets? [speaker004:] yes in little booklets but it was actually... homework at, it was produced but for the school, had a school name and crest so [speaker005:] It's a half thing isn't it like that? [speaker004:] Well it's jus... just a little booklet really [speaker005:] Mm mm. [speaker004:] that's all it was, like the old booklets and it used have... week beginning... Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday all the way along and they used to write their homework in, what they had to do [Rod:] See we we had them done [speaker004:] so it was written down. [Rod:] didn't we? But, that red fronted one. [speaker004:] I'm sure you had one. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Sixty quid they cost us! [Rod:] Cost a [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] lot of money! [speaker002:] That's a lot of money. [Rod:] We tried it for a whole year. [speaker005:] But if the kids [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] But if the kids are gonna buy them [speaker004:] They used to buy these. [speaker002:] But you can't make them buy it! [speaker005:] No... they're about [speaker004:] No you can't make them buy them, no. [speaker005:] I think we had them in our last and the they cost about fifty pence each. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] And I mean the kids... the kids that we yo yo... some kids er, I mean they were just beautiful and other kids lost them within a couple of days! [speaker004:] Yeah, well I know. [speaker003:] I can supply you free of charge with the blue one... if you wish then... or we could think about it. [speaker002:] Or if it's worth pile it in and. [Rod:] See I... I I think part of it [speaker003:] What,? [Rod:] is getting them into the habit... isn't it? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Rod:] And saying, right we'll do them [speaker006:] If they have to. [Rod:] for the first half term [speaker002:] Mhm. [Rod:] the trouble is if you stop some then think that it's not as important. [speaker002:] Not in, not [speaker005:] No. [speaker002:] important. [speaker005:] No. [Rod:] But you have to be careful that by doing something like that you're not making life... completely onerous [speaker006:] Aha. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Rod:] for everybody. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] I mean, to be honest... I was, I'm not so so [speaker002:] aye? [speaker006:] so bothered about the diary as as... actually trying to get [speaker004:] That about the first weekend. [speaker002:] The homework in. [speaker006:] the homework [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] in and the [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] organisation [Rod:] I think that would be better [speaker006:] cos for some of the kids [speaker002:] ... yeah. [speaker006:] it's just another book to lose where, I mean [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker006:] personally do is as a mo er er for my kids that I teach is they write their homework in the back of their exercise book... so their homework diary is the back... you know [Rod:] Mhm. [speaker006:] page of their exercise book [speaker002:] Yeah, aye we do that as well, well I do it anyway. [speaker006:] erm so therefore... as long as they take their history [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] book home... they've got written in the back of the book what [speaker005:] What it is. [speaker006:] they're supposed to be [speaker002:] What it is [speaker006:] doing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Erm... what I... what I'd like to, I mean I've written out in rough you know, what I'd like to send out to departments with... the the the homework timetable... and it's just, you know I I'm trying to say to the members of staff I don't wanna interfere with the way that they organise their departments or their classrooms... but... I want to propose, you know that things like... all seventh year classes should have one homework per subject per week. [Rod:] Mhm. Good! [speaker006:] That homework should last approximately half an hour or whatever it consists of, erm... reading, written work, finishing off drawing research whatever... that homework should be handed in the next day, form teachers to remind classes of this and to co-ordinate delivery of the books, papers etcetera to the member of teaching staff... and that the non production of homework is to be the concern of the member of... of teaching staff and not the form teacher, although regular non producers will be the concern of us all. And just that the proposals... if you want to opt out of the homework timetable then... they can but... they've gotta let [Rod:] Well would you [speaker006:] me know. [Rod:] Would you like me to mention it at briefing on Monday? [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Can I [Rod:] Then the heads of departments that you're going to [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] communicate with heads of department [speaker006:] Yes please. [speaker003:] Can I make a point? [Rod:] and er then... leave it with you [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] to [speaker006:] That... you know that is actually something... personally, I mean... you know if you take it back to the conversation we had this morning... with... what we do what what the eleventh year are ending up with [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker006:] I just feel that... you know, if you if in the seventh year... they get the opinion... that... you work in school and you do nowt out of school... come ninth year, tenth year, eleventh year... you ain't gonna change it! [Rod:] Right. [speaker003:] Can I make [speaker004:] You also find Marian that... we were talking about that this morning as well we cannot cover the national curriculum without more... homework [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and the first [speaker006:] So will this, will this [speaker004:] will they do it? [speaker006:] Yeah but will this proposal [speaker003:] They have to. [speaker006:] of getting i... the some sort of a working a relationship a at a more detailed... where in between, we're between the staff... the teaching staff and the tutor, the form tutors... help the teaching staff, especially and say in your department where you you're gonna have to give them more homework. [speaker004:] I would have to say on a personal point of view, no... cos I will deal quite [speaker006:] Mhm. [speaker004:] severely with people who don't hand homework into me and it's [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker004:] the first thing that I do at the beginning of the lesson is one sec [speaker006:] Right. [speaker004:] right I want to see the homework, those that haven't got it etcetera. [speaker006:] Yeah, but will it [speaker004:] But you have to agree, I mean [speaker006:] But will it help the members, will, but will help the child... if there's a co-ordination between [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker006:] the member [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] of staff [speaker004:] Well there's no argument [speaker006:] and the tutor? [speaker004:] is there. Course you got. [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker006:] Yeah. [Rod:] Mm. [speaker004:] But I'm... as long as you're careful I mean some people [speaker006:] I think if you the next morning... this business [speaker005:] Good! [speaker006:] would you agree to it being handed in the next day as opposed to the next lesson? [speaker004:] Well I'll, this is where I'm gonna hit you right in the head, no, I have it the next le, I'll have it in the lesson. [speaker005:] Why? [speaker004:] Why? Because if I've, if it's handed into me, period one and I've got them period four... I'm not gonna mark it... I'm never gonna get round to marking it! And I'm gonna hand the books back out then I'm gonna have to take them back in again! [speaker005:] Well isn't that normal, or where do they normally put their books? [speaker004:] They give it to me at the end of the lesson. [speaker005:] Is that every le, I'm not talking about homework, I'm talking about every lesson that you have as science... where do they keep their books? Their exercise books? [speaker003:] You keep them. [speaker004:] Well frankly half of them don't have exercise books. [speaker002:] Well she's. [speaker003:] They've got booklets. [speaker004:] We have booklets, we have all sorts of things [speaker006:] Yeah, right, but... but [speaker004:] But if I'm... if kids are giving me work... first thing in the morning... and I've got them in the afternoon... they're gonna expect it to be marked!

[speaker001:] Right erm, let's start with, how long have you lived in Harlow? [speaker002:] Er fort er forty six next, about forty six years dear [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] I moved from Nazeing into Harlow because my house was condemned at Nazeing and I had to come into a Council house at, and erm, from I had erm, when I came from Nazeing I had erm, three sons... three sons then and when I got to, I'd been here a year and then I had another son and after that er, when he was about two years and four months I had a daughter, but unfortunately I lost her with heart trouble and er she only lived four months and I lost her and er, er I stayed there, stayed there and, in and after that I moved to because it was a bit larger house for my family you see and from erm I was there several years and er stayed there and I had erm... oh first of all I, I had my twins, my twin boys after I lost the daughter, I had twin boys and they, I went to I suppose about two years and four months between and I wanted to adopt a little girl but they wouldn't let, my hubby said no and so then I er, sort of see if I get a little girl and I had twin boys didn't I, and I'm still in, I'm in and after er after I had the twins when I was about er forty two if I did had another boy which is the one I've got, the last one up there [LAUGHTER] of my eight, I ended up with eight boys [speaker001:] Good god [speaker002:] and from there er Mr was the er housing manager then from Epping, we came under Epping didn't we? There wasn't any new town or anything and er they'd built those er Council houses in the front in and he also erm, he said would I like a nice new house, to have plenty of hot water for the boys for bathing and everything, so I moved into a four bedroom and er I was there, er brought my family up there for, till er, unfortunately my mother came to live with me and unfortunately erm I had to go away erm because I wasn't very well on a holiday and I was called back cos she was found dead on the toilet my poor mother and er after that erm I came back and erm, in the middle of the week from holiday, oh bother it [phone rings] will it be okay? [phonecall starts] Hello, yeah, Betty's number..., I'm just having a recording done of me while I've been in Harlow... I'm having it done now [LAUGHTER], yeah, er so I can't stop alright? alright, bye, bye []. It's always the way innit? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Will that come on it? Will that [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] No that's alright then [LAUGHTER] and er I, I got into, I came, came back sort of when mother died, had to come back suddenly in the middle of the week and then erm I brought me family up as I say and, and my hubby... he took, he took us Christmas shopping which is twenty one years ago this, this month the sixteenth my daughter-in-law and I and the little boy and that's the little boy over there that's now married, the one with the photograph, he took us shopping at Bishop's Stortford cos we hadn't any shops nothing here then, there was nothing when I first came here it was terrible and we went to Bishop's Stortford and we came home in the, dinner time and I got erm, had our dinner and everything, had our meal, well we had soup and that was gonna cook at night, er you know, dinner at night so we had soup and that and erm he said I go down to the garage to put a tyre on my car, he came struggling back and within half an hour he was dead at fifty six years old that's all he was, so I was left to bring up those that wasn't married, I was left to bring up er the others you know, er I had the twins with me and Roy one of the boys and erm, er Brian the youngest one and I had to bring them up and I, after I, they, they all got married and I moved, before they got married I just got Brian with me the two twins got married, and I moved into my daughter-in-law's house next door which was no two, seven, five the other side, I'm sorry, two, seven, five and er I was in my house though three years that four bedroom and I couldn't afford to keep you know big house like that going with just three, my, me and my son so we moved into her house and she had the end one which is still in now, we'd done a swap and then cos er, er in the later years I was in there oh a long, long while and I loved it and I didn't wanna move but then I found, I was handicapped, I wouldn't get up the stairs to the toilet so I was moved into this bungalow you see and I had a friend living with me and he erm, he come here to live with me, came to lodge with me because he didn't want to go into Stevenage you see and er, after that erm, after that we, I had this bungalow and er I moved into this bungalow and er he moved in here with me and er everything happened when I got in this bungalow. The first May I fell out my garden and put my elbow out, this, this, this one right out which makes it awkward for me to use now, you know, I, I put that right out and therefore erm I had to go at, up to hospital and put that right [LAUGHTER] and the follow the following, the following May my bed caught alight [LAUGHTER] with electric blanket and that blazed all up, had my, had my bed all alight my double bed, the electric blanket and I'd only just had it serviced and that went, that was the second May and the third May we were going on an outing me and erm Arthur that was lodging with me and he, we got out of the taxi at Parndon and it, he just collapsed and died at me feet so that's the, that was the end of that and I've been living here you know, since he went, and erm I used to be able to get anywhere with one stick cos I had arthritis in this right hip you see, I could get anywhere with one stick in the taxi, or anywhere and I went to my son's, er which is now coming, I've been here about twelve years in this bungalow, er eight years erm, eight years ago in No this November gone, I went down to my son's, it was rather slippery and he took me down in the car and I, as I got out erm the car I said to him mind it's very slippery, he said I won't let you fall mother he said, so I went in, but as I came out with one stick he still hadn't got anything down, you know, if it had been a, a sort of erm sand or something down I wouldn't of slipped and I got half way in his car and out I fell and caught this left hip on the step, on the step and I dislocated my hip and it's right out of the socket like that, it should be, and I can't have it put back because I've had several coronaries in my life time and I cannot have it put back you see [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] but er, er as I say while I was round there the new town was, was all built and er I found, we found such a difference cos I used to have to go into Old Harlow shopping, I used to cycle before I was handicapped like this, I used to cycle everywhere, and er I went, you used to have to queue up in Old Harlow for the shops, we hadn't got anything here at all, no Stow or anything when I first, I mean when I came here nothing, it was just terrible [LAUGHTER] terrible lane up here it was and all these were all ploughed fields and it was really terrible and I had erm, I used to have to cycle into the doctors Old Harlow, queue up, queue up at the butchers, queue up everywhere you had to queue and er, till they built this er the new, The Stow then we used to go to The Stow shopping you know which made such a difference, but er, during my say during my lifetime I've so, so pleased when the new town came because I wanted to move back to Nazeing where I came from when I first got here because it was such a terrible place [LAUGHTER] there was nothing doing whatever, you know and then I moved erm, as I say after I got round the front there it was more, better really, you know, with all the er traffic and that you could see people going by and that as otherwise it, it was monotonous really in Common Fields, you didn't see much at all there, but you know it was, I quite enjoyed it really, now what else have I got to tell you? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh, erm, do you think your life's been changed by the New Town? [speaker002:] Oh yes it's, it's been changed a lot and a, and er, it's made such a difference and I've met er, I've got a er fr a very good friend who's, who's a Red Cross young man who I met at Leah Manning and he takes me out in the car which I wouldn't, never get out otherwise because my boys are all working you see they can't, they're busy working and erm do shift work and security work, one's got his own security business and the other one's got a factory in Bishop's Stortford so that they don't get much chance, they work away, some of them do that they cannot get to take me out see, so he takes me out, which he's very, very good you know, he's, yesterday he took me to erm, yesterday we, he took me to Ongar to see his sister in the bungalow and then he took me for a meal at erm The Chariot at er, at Brentwood, Brentwood, yes Brentwood The Chariot, it was quite nice I had rather, a good time, erm cos usually I can't get out unless I go out in the wheelchair you see I'm confined to a wheelchair, though I struggle out into the kitchen with me two sticks and I've got a stool in there that I do all my own cooking and I make cakes and that and I'm doing a cake gonna make a cake for Christmas for me brother and make a cake, er another one for myself like, but, and then I go to my erm daughter-in-law's to spend Christmas Day and then I, I'm going to my son's and spend Boxing Day which is my birthday, I'll be seventy four on Boxing Day [LAUGHTER] I'm dreaded to say, yeah, but erm, this young man that takes me lives in Northbrooks, he's er a widower, but he's very, very good, he helps all us old people, you know, he's ever so good he is to me, he comes up and brings my shopping today, does my shopping for me as well, so, well he's, yes, he's most kind, for, nearly two years I've know him, that's a photo over there, it was taken at a wedding look, of my, that's it, over there, taken at a wedding dear, very good [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] No I've made, it's made an awful lot of difference to me the New Town I mean we've got and the Council are very, very good to us, I mean we can't say they're not, they've had a, I've had the gas central heating put in, I've had a shower put in since I've been here and I mean they do they look after us well, the only thing I'm upset about that I've put off the ambulance to go to Leah Manning on a Wednesday because they want me to go on a Tuesday and I cannot go on a Tuesday because I have my friend come down which does all odd jobs for me you know, on a Tuesday dear and I just cannot so I had to see Mr is it? The other day [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and he said he'd, he'd let me know before Christmas if he can get me back on a Wednesday, but I'm still taken on a Wednesday but my friend takes me in the car on a Wednesday but er I like to go in the ambulance you see really so er [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] to be with my friends although they let me sit with me friends so they're good really so I'm hoping that I should be able to get back on a Wednesday because er, that's the only day really I can go, I go to Barn Mead on a Thursday as a rule you see, but yesterday I had to have a day off to go out, I had an invite out [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] so it poured, it poured of rain though last night that's the only thing [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] but er otherwise I'll, I'll wouldn't, I never want to go back to Nazeing not after now and, and now the, this new town we were taken shopping the other Tuesday, it was really lovely and we see all the shops, first time I've really seen them properly and er I thoroughly enjoyed it and we were all given erm in a, is it Blockers one of the shops? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] He gave, they gave us all a lovely mug each, beautiful [speaker001:] Oh that was very kind [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah was kind, it was kind of them, yes and we went all round the shops and er I thoroughly enjoyed it and in the new Co-Op as well you know, I thoroughly enjoyed it but he took me in the car so that we didn't have to hang about you see [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] so I can't get cold so I get, sometimes I get a coronary if I get very cold so I have to keep warm see but otherwise dear erm I think the New Town is really great I do... [speaker001:] Yeah, erm what do you think of erm entertainment in Harlow? [speaker002:] Well, er very good but erm last year I was very disappointed I didn't get invite, an invite to the old time musical which is most unusual, it's the first time I've ever been missed out, but I don't know how it happened, our warden didn't have any of us invited, so I don't know how it happened [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] no, so we didn't have an invite I know, I mean normally I'm taken every year you know, there, to see the old time musical which is great and I look forward to that but cos I didn't get, get there and I love going to Leah Manning as I say we have dancing there on a Wednesday afternoon it's great, I enjoy it ever so much and I meet all my friends there that I haven't seen for years, you know, that I used to go to clubs with and they've all arrived there now you know it's great to see them, I thoroughly enjoy it. [speaker001:] Yeah, so you've got a lot of friends in Harlow then? [speaker002:] Oh yes I've got loads of friends dear in Harlow yes, lovely [speaker001:] Got a lot [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] yeah I've got a lot of relations, I've got twenty, twenty seven er grandchildren, that includes the great grandchildren, twenty seven which I have er to get something for all at Christmas [LAUGHTER] it's a pantomime I've got stuff here and everywhere sorting out for them, cos my little grandson tonight is coming round to wrap them up for me so I got to mind I haven't, leave his present in the way otherwise he'll know what he's got [LAUGHTER] yeah he's got, I got a tape for him, he wanted a tape called Madness so I've got him a tape for it [LAUGHTER] so I've had to put that out the way so he doesn't wrap that up, no he comes and does them up for me tonight, and a friend Ian will help him as well, so you know it's, it's great really [speaker001:] Mm, what did erm the dentist and hospitals used to be like before the New Town was built? [speaker002:] Well we only had Epping hospital dear, that's all we had, there was only Epping and er they were er you know done what they could very good and we had a dentist, oh dentist you had to go er, oh right to Old Harlow, up er [speaker001:] It's a long way [speaker002:] I think it was Old Harlow or Hoddesdon somewhere I used to go, I know a long way off we had to go because there wasn't anything round here was there? No, no one, nothing at all, no, it's great. [speaker001:] It's much better now? [speaker002:] Oh it is now yes, you've got, I mean you've got the service now haven't you and erm, but I like at St Margaret's hospital I'd been, I had been, I went in there to have my last boy, but they're very, very good there they were, I've not been in, I've been in, I've had treatment here for my hip and that up at Harlow but they wouldn't do the operation because of my blood clotting you see, so therefore I've got to grin and bear it, I've had eight years of it, I couldn't walk for six months, but now I struggle and get around as I say with a couple of sticks I get round [speaker001:] Mm... er what was the school like before it, the schools in Harlow before [speaker002:] Well all we had was Broadfield School and that's where my boys had to go to Broadfield, they went into Broadfield School and erm, they all got on alright you know, they got on well there and then from there they went to when the new school was built they went to Netteswell school you see, but two of my sons are electricians and unfortunately the eldest one, one of the electricians I couldn't put him to apprentice because I couldn't afford it cos I had a hard to struggle to bring them up you know in those days, we didn't get erm any family allowance or anything those days, and erm, so therefore he couldn't go, but he sort of got on and got his own factory, but my other son who's an electrician, one of the twins he's erm, he's got his City and Guilds he passed, he went, he was able to go to the school when the new schools were built you see, when Netteswell school was built he was able to go to night school and er learn all you see, then there was the one at Burnt Mill wasn't there, down the bottom? I mean [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] he was able to go and he, cos he passed his City and Guilds, he works for the Water Board so he gets the maintenance [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] for the Water Board so he's got quite a good job you know, but erm, I'm, we couldn't afford to put the other through the apprentice because I mean you hadn't got the money had you then [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] you couldn't do it, but he had every opportunity the other, the twin did to get through you know and he passed his City and Guilds, but Peter's got on alright, the other son who's got the factory, he's, he's busy got an electrical panels and all that he does, you know, he's quite good and my other son he works, he used to work at Burnt Mill, and he now has moved to erm er Stansted, he works at Stansted he works in the big food depot, that used to be years ago and he works there, he's been there ever since he left school, since except two, two years he had in the army you know for the conscription, but he's been there erm ever since he was fourteen and he's now about oh, forty something now he is, I'm not quite sure of their ages, I get muddled up [LAUGHTER] I've got, eight, eight sons altogether, so, I've got quite a family dear. [speaker001:] What was your old house in Nazeing like? [speaker002:] It, it was a two bedroom old cottage it was, very, very nice with a big garden and all I had was erm one room downstairs and like er a kitchen, well er where the sink and that was it was more like a big room where the kitchen was and the two bedrooms upstairs, but only a door on one bedroom, you went up the stairs into a big open room you know where the bannisters all round you know what I mean, no door on it and just, another door, a bedroom door, that's all but I loved it you know it was a nice erm, not bad, but of course it was condemned it got so old and then they pulled it down and they built another house on it right next to where erm that shooting took pla you know they was having that shooting night just down that lane where I used to be [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] I used to live just down that lane, back lane and er that's where they er had that last week that episode with the police wasn't it, bogus police, yeah, yes that's where I and er it was a quite nice old house really I didn't like leaving it. [speaker001:] How long did you live there for? [speaker002:] Oh I li well I, I've had a lot of moves dear in my time I tell you [LAUGHTER] I, first of all when I first got married I lived at Bishop's Stortford, then from Bishop's Stortford I went to erm Stansted in rooms cos I, you know we couldn't get a place and from there I had one of my sons [phone rings] oh... [telephone conversation starts] hello... time, eleven o'clock just struck... what's the day? Today is Friday, yes, it's Friday... the date today, what's the date today the eighth? [speaker001:] The tenth [speaker002:] the tenth, the tenth, tenth... alright, that's alright, right... [tut] righto. up the top she lives, oh dear [LAUGHTER] what's the time? Just strike eleven, so it's not far wrong... [speaker001:] Erm, when the new town was first proposed and erm, and they you know said they were gonna build up houses and that, what did you think? [speaker002:] Well I was pleased, I was pleased of it [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] really great it was, you know I didn't really think it would turn out as big as it has done you know, but it's turned out beautiful hasn't it really, yeah we was, I was thrilled especially when they built the new houses round the front we used to go and keep looking at them, little did I think I would get one, and the housing officer came one day and he said would you like one of the new ones, I said I would and it was four bedroom but we got, you see we've got the other bedroom over my daughter-in-law's, so me and hubby used to have the en right down a long passage and the bedroom was over like the sit you've got a bedroom over the sitting room like see and she erm, we used to have so the children didn't make a noise to disturb her [LAUGHTER] so my hubby and I had that room, yeah, it was quite nice it was, nice house, I erm, you know, enjoyed being there, bringing up the family, you want plenty of room you've got a big family don't you really? So it, then I had erm, I brought up my husband's sister's daughter from when she was fourteen, I brought her oh, yes fourteen, I brought her up for nine years and br brought her up as my own daughter like because she got, got to be put away in a home and I didn't want her to have to go into a home so I, I brought her up you know we brought her up and sort of as, I lost my little girl she was with me like, see and she still comes to me like, she still calls but she calls me mum, mother like now, ha, you know all those years I had her, she's married and her family's grown up now and er she's got one daughter left, left at home who's just got engaged that's Mrs from er she lives, yes so, so that was my hubby's er sister's daughter she only had the one daughter and two brothers, but she, the brothers she don't hear nothing of them they just, you know they were gonna put her in a home, but we took her so she didn't have to go in a home, I didn't want her to have to go in a home [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] so we brought her up, brought her up, she lived with me until she got married you see dear. [speaker001:] Yeah, did a lot of people have to go in homes in those days, or is it just like today? [speaker002:] Well it's, it's more like more or less just like today, you know, if you, if you've got nowhere to go and they just put you there, but I mean now you can't get in very good can you really, not now, but erm, Pat since she's been on duty she's had a terrible trial, terrible she had to get one, help in this morning, get one of the floor next door, then we've had trouble one down further, but she's been put into erm Ashlyn now for five weeks, so she's out the way for a little while [LAUGHTER] we've had an awful worrying time here though, it's absolutely been a pantomime cos this has just keeps er throwing herself on the floor, all the time she's doing it [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and the warden was there in her dressing gown trying to get her up and she couldn't get her up this morning, so she had to get help, one of the workmen came along and helped from the top [LAUGHTER] terrible to say though it is, yeah, never mind, they get over it... [speaker001:] What did the shops used to be like cos you used to have to go to the Old Town didn't you? [speaker002:] Yeah well, there wasn't many shops there really dear, there were just the er fishmongers and greengrocers and the butchers and the, we used to have to go there to get, to queue up, you had to queue because there was no, not many shops to be there you see to serve you, it's altered a lot now, there's a lot more shops now and the doctors I used to have to queue right out the gate, the doctors a big long queue, there was only Dr surgery and then we had another doctor came that started down at erm the bottom of erm Harlow near where, where do they call that? Bottom part of Harlow, down by the Fire Station where do they, there used to be another doctor had a surgery down there Dr... [speaker001:] Oh I don't know [speaker002:] but where, where it's in, it's Old Harlow it's in Old Harlow, but further down, right further down by the Fire Station, he used to have a surgery down there [speaker001:] Was it Chippingfield somewhere round there? [speaker002:] No Chippingfield's in, near the Post Office, no it's further [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] than that dear it's down the other end, the other side of Old Harlow, but he used to have a surgery there which he, you know, made it better after the erm, to ease up Dr surgery cos that was so packed and the shops were absolutely and you used to have to queue and queue for, to get your shopping, you couldn't, I used to cycle into Harlow and leave my cycle somewhere and then go along do my shopping, but it used to be two or three hours' job it was, you didn't get done till dinner time and then I used to call it a, a lady used to say call there that used to have the fried fish and chip shop on the corner of erm Harlow and I used to go there and have a cup of tea before I came home because I used to be so long shopping you couldn't get served you see, it's too many people, there was nowhere else for them to go, it was only Bishop's Stortford you had to go [speaker001:] Mm it's a long way innit? [speaker002:] see, yeah I mean it's a long way out isn't it, yeah you couldn't get there you see, mm... [speaker001:] Are you allowed to have pet pets here? [speaker002:] Yes, I've got my cat, it's just gone out, yeah I've got a cat, yes he's a lovely little cat I've got and he's just gone out a little ginger and but I did have a dog but I, cos he, I had him several years here a beautiful little corgi he was and then I had to have him put to sleep because he had er water trouble, but then my doctor advised me that I, he said don't have another dog have a cat, so I had a cat, I've always had a cat though [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] I had two when I first came here, but erm, one came as a stray but this one I've got is a lovely little er ginger and white one he's, he's about somewhere but he's just gone out I should imagine been on the si sitting on the sideboard... [speaker001:] Do you go on holiday anywhere? [speaker002:] Yes dear I went to erm, er the er holiday camp in October to erm, er with the Red Cross and I went with the, Charlie took me and I went in a car with a friend of mine we went to the Red Cross holiday in Patefield, but it poured of rain every day [LAUGHTER] every day it poured of rain didn't October it was terrible, ever so cold, but we were well looked after you know and I enjoyed it and we had the wheelchairs to go around in on for the dancing, it was really great I thoroughly enjoyed it, I haven't been for two years I hadn't, but I went like in October, cos you're only allowed really every two years to go, that's all you're allowed really, but I thoroughly enjoyed it you know, it was nice [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] really great. [speaker001:] Did you go on holiday when you were younger? Did you take the family away or was it? [speaker002:] We used to, we, I used to go when my husband was alive we used to go to erm Devon cos I had a brother living in Devon we used to go there, but er unfortunately I lost him when he was only fifty with a coronary, and so erm, in, cos and after that I lost my husband you see so cos we I've never been away like that before, not, not since, years ago that was, he's been gone twenty one years this Christmas sixteenth might be so, I've not been able to so I, I, I go with the erm, I went with the Red Cross this year the year before last I went erm er,Char Charlie took me away we went to er a chalet we stayed at and er a friend of mine we went there for a week had a week there, that poured of rain every day, this year it poured of rain every day [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] so we've had nothing but rain. Last night was a terrible night wasn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] Pouring all night, yeah, did you want a coffee dear? [speaker001:] No thank you [speaker002:] Cos you can have one [speaker001:] No it's alright [speaker002:] Are you sure? [speaker001:] Yeah... erm, erm do you get a lot of benefits? Have you got a bus pass or anything like that? [speaker002:] No, I don't have a bu I, I didn't, I didn't have a, you, I used to, no I didn't have a bus pass no cos I've been handicapped haven't I, no [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] I haven't dear, no I can't get a bus pass but I get the grant from the Council in er January twenty five pound we get to help towards the fuel bills you see, no. [speaker001:] What do you think of the Council in Harlow? [speaker002:] Very good, very, very good, no I think as I say the only thing I said to Mr I told him that I'm very upset because I've always been treated ever so fair by him I mean they've really been good to us, you can't say they're not, I mean no other Council I don't think is as good as Harlow Council, well I say that because I know by my friends who live away they're not er, they don't get half the benefits that they get here, I mean we are looked after aren't we? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] I know, I say that, and the, the only thing is I was upset over the Leah Manning, being taken off the ambulance you see and whether I will get back I'm hoping I will because erm he said he will let me know before Christmas so I think he will, he came to Leah Manning to visit me any rights to see me about it, so it was good of him really [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] cos I mean they don't usually do they, but he did he came up there to see me [speaker001:] Mm... oh what did your husband do for a living? [speaker002:] He used to be a crane driver dear for, yeah he used and I've got to, one of me sons now is a foreman for, well they're not now it's, it's sort of amal amalgamated with another firm now I think, but he does, he does erm, he's a foreman like now, he used to be a truck, crane driver and my, the very night that my hubby died on the following Monday he would of been working in Harlow, he got a new crane to take over in Harlow and he'd been working away from home for weeks and months of the year always away, coming home weekends and I used to have to cook and do his washing and pack him up for going off again Monday morning early, but he never was near home working then, and as I say the night before he went he was, he was gonna work on the Monday to in Old, to Harlow down where the new er place was for and it unfortunately cos he went. [speaker001:] Have you ever had a job? [speaker002:] Beg your pardon? [speaker001:] Have you ever had a job? [speaker002:] Yes I, after I lost my daughter I had to go into erm, into the factory to make aeroplane pieces at Burnt Mill cos I was so bad with my nerves after I lost her, er just afternoons I had to go and then I was taken ill I couldn't do it, well then after my erm, I got my family off to school I took a part time job in erm one of the factories making tea in the mornings for the office and coffees and that for the office and then in the afternoons I used to do the tea as well, I used to cycle there, I quite enjoyed it until my right hip started coming bad then I had to pack it in, but I was in there, I was there for about four years and I thoroughly enjoyed it you know making tea and that, I didn't have to take it round only collect the money to go round and collect the money, but used to have to put the trolley outside and they used to come and get their tea each one, of which they knew which was their mugs and cups ha, you know, I, I thoroughly enjoyed that job, really great... [speaker001:] You got any hobbies? [speaker002:] Yes, stool making, you know I've got a stool here, I made that stool over there ages ago for me daughter-in-law and this one I cannot get it right I've, I've, it's, it's, I'm trying I've got to undo it again there, it's not right, I think it is because the cord's too thick, it's a very thick cord and I've not got enough stitches you know not enough strands on it, but I'm gonna do it, it'll be done before Christmas [LAUGHTER] I've got to do it otherwise oh and I've made a big rug at the centre, which I shall have home before Christmas, a big woollen rug I've made, yes so, oh it's a beautiful rug it's with those er silver thing you push through the hole on the canvas [speaker001:] Oh yeah [speaker002:] and you put the cluster of wool in it and pull it back and it's like little bobbles of wool and er I've got a beige and a brown I've done it with it will look nice you know, it will come right here, it's a beautiful rug, quite nice, so I've been busy and I make coat hangers [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] I do those, knit coat hangers you know make the with the, when I'm not doing me rug I'm making them [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] and the squares for the blankets, I can't crochet though, I'm no good at crocheting, I can't do any crocheting, I can knit but I can't crochet [speaker001:] Is that blanket crochet, crochet? [speaker002:] Yes that's been crocheted this one, yeah I can't do it, that, that one's a knitted one, but I can't erm I just can't crochet, I can knit [LAUGHTER] I've tried, but I've tried I just can't do it I don't know why I take the hobby my plants, I've, I grow those violets from leaves, look behind [speaker001:] Oh yeah [speaker002:] that's all grown from leaves, just put the leaves in water and the little shoots come on them and then I put them in after some, when they've got their little roots on them and they grow, that's, that's one I've grown from, from just leaves and one in over there in the window I've grown from leaves. [speaker001:] That pink one's lovely, what is it? [speaker002:] That's a cyclamen, two I'd had me given that at our family party, we have a family party once a year [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and er we do all the cooking between us and my, my sons they have a disco and all that they get [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and this year they brought me the wireless and cassette [speaker001:] Oh lovely [speaker002:] last year I had a hoover, the year before that I had erm a teas maker, which I've got a Goblin teas maker they bought me [speaker001:] Lovely [speaker002:] yes, and er, that, that's one of the plants I had given me, yeah I have some lov I have some lovely presents you know really great they are, quite nice at the part we, we have a, the children they, they er have games for the children to start with we do for the grandchildren you see and then er we have the dancing and the erm disco, it was great, we have a lovely party every October we have and I have all my friends we had about a hundred and eighty this year I think, must of been Hatfield Broad Oak hall we hold it, over at Hatfield Broad Oak cos it's er nice hall there, you know it's, you know especially handicapped toilets and everything there it's beautiful, mm [speaker001:] Yeah, good... I don't think I've got any more questions, that's lovely [speaker002:] No [LAUGHTER] was it alright? [speaker001:] Yes it was very good, you did very well, thank you. [speaker002:] That's alr

[speaker001:] These are questions that I'd like to ask you from what you've told me so far, erm, I'd like to ask you Mr about erm, from your point of view, from your erm experience with the electrical [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] business about light fittings. I like to ask you both about your experience of moving into Harlow and of living in this house, which is a totally separate set of questions [speaker003:] Mm, mm [speaker001:] erm, why I suppose that's two completely different questions and I'd like to ask you from your point of view, from your point of view [speaker002:] I don't think there's a very great deal in the way of er lighting fittings one can talk about erm in houses in Harlow, it's er, there's a, a distinct difference between the light, a lot, lot of architects in, in Harlow have lived in Harlow you see and they will go in for all the very latest type of lighting fittings erm and because they have er access to the books for the various er designers of lighting fittings er, generally though, they, the majority of the people in the town er have come from er London boroughs and erm they view the same kind of lighting fittings they've always been used to. I mean when I started with a shop in Harlow what, erm, nearly twenty five [speaker003:] Thirty [speaker002:] nearly thirty years ago, erm, we used to sell the old glass bowl fitting on er three chains, hanging from the ceiling and that, and I used to buy those in a crate of about fifty at a time, and er most of the houses had two lighting points in the lounge anyway so, and they'd always wanted a pair and we used to have them in the shop on a display so that about eight of them could all be lit up at once and people could see them and if they didn't like those then the, we could always put another one under the set if we'd got one in a certain colour, we could hang one of those up and er they could look at that and see what it looked like. [speaker001:] Can I go back and ask you two questions. One, what were the differences when you say that they chose them, so even though the basic shape was the same there were obviously some, there were some variations? [speaker002:] Oh yes, erm I think it was generally, er, they had to match the colouring of the rooms that they'd got, the furniture they'd got really because as far as the room was concerned er when, when the, new houses came onto the erm, ready for occupation, er they were all cream coloured inside and anyway and pale cream [LAUGHTER] so [] they, they'd got er any choice they wanted there it, really it was just to match their curtains, match their carpets, all their furnishings and erm, of course I suppose they, the rose coloured ones er went better than say the lemon coloured one and that because er people just er liked the idea of moving into a place that's got a nice cosy glow in it, place sort of thing, but we never sell any at all, there's, none of that type of fitting in, sold now. [speaker001:] When do you think that that erm stopped being popular? [speaker002:] Oh I, I should think that about fifteen years ago er when erm the lighting manufacturers had decided that er there was a great deal more available in lighting than just the erm, type of glass bowls and shades that had been used, well in between the wars er, I mean after the war was over in nineteen forty six er they were still using the same things that they did before the war and this just carried on er and er it, it only within the last what I suppose fifty years that's over [speaker001:] In the late sixties [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] people were still using these sort of light fittings? [speaker002:] oh yes, yes, erm it's very difficult to say I think when it actually exactly fades out, it would be, it would be fifteen years ago anyway, er when one used to find that there, there were no more of these being bought at all [speaker001:] Yes and apart from you, you mention lemon and rose, what other colours were there, can you remember? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, you'd, some people would go for some very awkward colours, er green, which is a terrible colour, blue which is another awkward colour, I mean I even get people today asking for blue lamps for their bedrooms, erm I'm sure they can't read in bed at that rate er, erm, it's an awful colour to use erm and er... I suppose [speaker003:] Orange [speaker002:] yes, any colour you can think of, I mean erm, blue I think is one of the worse, but thinking of lampshades we used to sell a lot of er lampshades for putting on table lamps er and erm, we'd have just about every colour and somebody would come along and say well erm haven't you got one in purple [LAUGHTER] and of course I'd refrain from saying thank god no I haven't [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] erm, and er, sometimes even pleased to say well I'll try to get you in purple, but er, nowadays erm, we, we don't go in for that because there's, there's so many er shops now that selling lighting fittings erm and selling nothing else, there isn't one actually in Harlow, but there's one in Epping and there's one in Stortford, erm that er, it's, it's riding a new car people want to see er a good variety of them, have a look at a lot or a washing machine or anything like that, you want to see many before you buy one. [speaker001:] But, but in the fifties you were probably one of the only shops in Harlow that sold [speaker002:] Oh yes at one time erm after the New Town got well started, after The Stow was built got to the, goes up to The Stow and be beyond er, well it's just, going on into erm, er, towards the swimming bath, it wasn't up there, swimming bath, erm and we used to call it the Shady Shop in, in adverts and er we used to have a lot of people used to come down because there was only The Stow then and er [speaker001:] And you had your shop [speaker002:] we [speaker001:] in The Stow? [speaker002:] Oh no, no way, my shop's in Old Harlow always has been [speaker001:] It's always been [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes, erm the er, no I, I suppose when The Stow first started we [speaker001:] When you saying, you saying that people had two points in their lounge [speaker002:] Yes, it was, yes, yes [speaker001:] was this an open plan [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] sitting and dining area? [speaker002:] yes, well I don't know, I suppose that nearly all er the houses in Harlow you could say are open planned now, you know had a, had er, a, kitchen dining area that we have, erm or erm lounge, diner, erm they haven't gone in, in this, the ordinary houses, they haven't gone in for building [speaker001:] Can I go back to, I know I keep on harping back, but this about the actual designs of the light fittings, erm you've told me that erm invariably the ceiling er lighting position was fixed by, being in the centre unless it was an open plan [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] with the dining room at one end and a sitting room at the other in which case you had two light, ceiling light [speaker002:] Yes, that's right, yes [speaker001:] erm and that the number of sockets changed [speaker002:] Yes it started off at er twelve sockets in these house and that er, it must of gone down to about er eight sockets in some houses. [speaker001:] And when you say these houses, the, the number of rooms and that in those sort of houses would be how many? [speaker002:] Well again er, er a three bedroomed house, I would, you see and they were putting one plug in, in, in each, each bedroom and, and two plugs in the main bedroom so they dropped one down altogether and erm, erm in a lounge like this to put two plugs in, sort of one in that corner and one in that corner it's no good to anybody, it's, as much as anything else was er, er about placing plugs as well er, if one's only going to have two plugs well then least one should be able to place them in, in the right positions, er putting them behind doors is, is, is no good at all, a lot of them have been done that way because the it always means flex is going to be draped across the, the door if people are walking in gonna trip over it and erm, they probably got down to now, something er just less than the standard I would think in the, in the last houses they built. [speaker001:] Did they put double ones in or just single sockets? [speaker002:] Well only in the last er two years I would think, perhaps two and a half years er had they really started putting double plugs in everywhere instead of single plugs [speaker001:] How many of, erm, did you ever come across a house with only one socket in a living room? [speaker002:] In a living room, no, no [speaker001:] Always at least two? [speaker002:] Two yes, at Potter Street there was erm, er houses built with two plugs in and that really wasn't any good at all and that was in erm a living room where there would be er, a dining living room as well [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] because the kitchen wasn't large enough and er, and the two plugs in the kitchen as well and that's just not good enough [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] for me [speaker001:] Can we go back to the, very quickly to, er to the review of the design of the light fittings in the fifties and sixties, you mentioned the pleated paper ones which were close to the ceiling [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] plastic ones which were close to the ceiling, can you, could you give me a bit more of a description of that or perhaps a manufacturer's name? [speaker002:] Well, I, I think that probably erm, when we started out, er, it again after the war, in this country, they erm, the lighting manufacturers never got round to it, there are too many er, there's, there was too much call for er lighting in offices, shops, schools and that sort of thing and er, so a lot of the idea did come from abroad at first, the er Fin shades they were made in Finland they were the paper pleated ones, er, most of them, no, no not most of them, a lot of them fitted er close up onto the ceiling where they're intended for centre lights and were held up onto the ceiling with a little spring, erm, they also did some quite nice pleated paper shades, er at a time when you find that most electrical shops were, would have er the old type of erm what is it, imitation silk shades with fringes round them, er fringe at the top and fringe at the bottom and so on sort of thing, when the, when those was sort of old of age everywhere, it was just the same as it'd been before the war, er it was, you know, quite right really to see these all in different colours, completely plain, but pleated shades but in just one particular colour each shade. [speaker001:] Was the inside of the shade white or did it, did the light glow through and [speaker002:] The glow through, er yes the paper was erm, was the same colour all the way through and er, and erm they had quite an impact, but of course they, would only last a year or two er and er they started a small factory in London and, erm call it Hula-Hoops I think er, I don't know whether Hula-Hoops came from the lighting shades or the lighting shades from the Hula-Hoops, but it was the same process that made them both and er this was erm thin plastic tubing brightly coloured, er which was er cemented together into er [speaker003:] Sponge [speaker002:] er beehive shapes and er [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker003:] Round [speaker002:] and erm circular shapes, that sort of thing. [speaker001:] Like hanging lanterns? [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] Yes, yes [speaker003:] they were very attractive actually [speaker002:] They were very attractive and they did have the advantage that you could take them down and plunge the whole thing in water and wash it and er [speaker001:] And they were popular a lot of people bought them [speaker003:] Oh yes, yeah [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes [speaker003:] sold an awful lot of them [speaker002:] there must of been a thousand thousands sold of this, done I should think [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] and erm then some of the people like er er in London started out erm making shades or er fittings which were erm quite at home in the house er or in the office and erm these were, well that is one design of them the wall back is to match you see, er but you could equally er, put those into erm hotel bedroom or something or er hotel lounge somewhere there, erm or you can get them large with more lamps in them I think and all sorts of new designs were coming out mainly in, in plastic er and erm [speaker003:] That [speaker002:] er they also brought out some a good range of lighting fittings er, which you still see about again used well I, I remember putting one, you saying about putting lights at different levels, erm a staircase which was in a new house which was architect design and built and erm, the staircase was er more or less centrally in the house rather than be stuck against one wall and so it had a well and down the centre of the well we strung one of these lights with er five different glasses suspended on black flex five black flexes and erm these were shades made of heavy glass er the glass wasn't painted it was coloured all the way through, er and erm they were called er Chelsea, Chelsea glasswork and erm these each had a lamp inside them well... er about three inch diameter cylinders actually about eight inches long and they were hung at different heights er so that the lip behind the staircase and also of course there's a staircase being where it was, it was in the centre of er, a, quite a large hallway for modern stand for modern standards and erm it of course was a feature of the hall as well. [speaker001:] So it became not only erm practical thing but the light fitting became a decorative [speaker002:] Oh yeah, yeah [speaker003:] Oh very much so [speaker001:] Do you think that there was a changeover from being practical, I mean can you remember seeing that transition from the very practical shade to the, to, to the light fitting becoming something decorative? [speaker003:] Oh I think that occurred about erm, I mean now the, the trend is for long erm chromium stems you know with lights coming out of all different angles and they are very decorative in a very modern house and that will be [speaker001:] But do you think that in the fifties already this sort of trend was something [speaker003:] I don't think so, I think this is [speaker002:] I think this is more in the sixties really [speaker003:] this is in the sixties [speaker002:] erm [speaker003:] seventies, sixties, seventies [speaker002:] fifties, all I can remember there was an all very stolid erm, people didn't know where they were yet, and erm, it er [speaker003:] I, I I was so [speaker002:] it was still in the sixties, they call it the swinging sixties, I mean I didn't see anything swinging in the sixties at all, I didn't think it was swinging, but er and they don't like now the swinging sixties and I think really it was then that er people did er branch out to new ideas. [speaker001:] These Rotaflex ones that you spoke of, were they in the fifties or the early sixties? [speaker003:] Early sixties [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] I see [speaker002:] Oh no in the, in the fifties we were on the erm, the glass bowl fittings, yes [speaker003:] On the glass bowl fittings [speaker001:] Yes, yes, do you think that one of the reasons that they, that they became less popular apart from fashion was that, that they, erm wo that, that you had, the way that you cleaned them, that they caught the dust or [speaker003:] Oh no [speaker002:] Well that, that could be an idea but I think people would put up with that I, I think it was just because they were, then old fashioned. [speaker001:] When you say glass bowl, do you mean like the gold fish bowl? That was [speaker003:] Like, yes, the gold fish bowl on chains, they're hanging down on chains [speaker002:] No it, it they hang on three chains er and er [speaker003:] s s some of them [speaker002:] yeah, about that shape sort of thing you see, like that [speaker001:] Yes, yes, did they have a kind of marbled [speaker003:] Yes, yes all sorts of different things, all [speaker002:] Oh yes, marbled, painted and all sorts of things on them, yeah [speaker003:] We used to get them by the, twenty at a time all sorts of, because people just absolutely loved [speaker001:] So when people first moved in they [speaker003:] these things [speaker001:] Yes, was it because you think that, they, that's what they had for in the house [speaker002:] Oh yes that's what they remembered, yes, yes [speaker003:] They would remember from London you see [speaker002:] er and erm, I, I think that er... most people are erm [speaker003:] Dougal you have made a smell you are a naughty boy [speaker002:] Er, I think most people now are influenced really by what they know at home er, and erm, today, yet that today they're, they're far more er adventurous and they're far more prepared, prepared to erm try out new ideas and see what they like [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] although we did notice, I mean, it and this will be during the er sixties anyway that erm, er the various new types of fittings that came out on er several of the London manufacturers were erm stepped up really weren't they you know [speaker003:] Oh yes, yes [speaker002:] the adjustable types of fittings and er, and in, it all really led up to what people are going for now in, in their houses, they want spotlights, erm clipped on, screwed on the ceiling, screwed on the walls er [speaker003:] Eye ball fittings in the ceilings [speaker002:] all this sort of thing you see [speaker003:] all that sort of thing [speaker002:] And that's what we're selling more of now than anything else er and I, I think it's quite a good idea really, light up the things that you like in the house, er and erm, not the things you don't like. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you think that the idea of a adjustability er you say that they were snapped up, do you think that people actually once they get an adjustable light fitting, do you think that they actually adjust it? Do you think that they move it around? Or do you [speaker003:] Oh I, I would think so [speaker002:] Some do, er the rise and fall type of fitting over a dining table where when you're er, er having dinner you'd have erm it down to about what not more than twelve inches above the table er so that it lit the table but didn't shine in your eyes, erm some people leave it like that all the time, other people having had a meal lift er it up, erm I think the main thing about the, er adjustable fly and fall is that erm, it's there for, as you want it, if you're trying to find a meal you've lost on the floor well then you pull it down to floor level really. [speaker001:] When in, when you had the erm, you put your ceiling lights on [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] in the erm living room, or dining lounge, what other light fittings did people buy apart from that, if they did at all? [speaker002:] Oh, usually er for bedrooms er they, they would have erm [sigh] [speaker003:] Bedside lights [speaker002:] decorated type of shades, erm usually nowadays in, in plastic but erm... [speaker001:] But I mean in the actual downstairs, in the living room [speaker003:] Did have table lamps [speaker001:] Table lamps [speaker003:] Yes, I mean [speaker001:] Standard lamps? [speaker003:] Oh aye, in the early days, yes, standard [speaker002:] Not much in the way of floor standards now, erm I don't think there's many floor standards sold nowadays [speaker001:] But I mean in the fifties, sixties [speaker003:] but, we, oh we used to sell a lot of floor standard [speaker002:] Oh in the fifties yes, yes, oh yes [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] wooden ones yes, yes, yes [speaker003:] With large you know [speaker002:] large shades on them [speaker001:] Traditional or again modern? [speaker003:] Er well both, mainly traditional turned wood [speaker002:] Oh mainly traditional, turned wood of yes [speaker003:] or and then we used to have some gorgeous lamps that er we used to get in Chelsea that it was fasten on the wall and the lamp would come over on the shade, down and completely change, do you remember that? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes [speaker001:] That sounds like a modern one [speaker003:] Very modern, yes [speaker001:] And those were bought and [speaker003:] Oh very much so, yes, this was in the sixties, sixties, seventies [speaker001:] Can you remember the make of that, like? [speaker003:] Oh blimey we used to go to Chelsea and buy them [speaker002:] Those, no, no, no I think the one you're thinking of, the brass tube [speaker003:] It was a brass tube [speaker002:] made by the same people who made that one there actually [speaker003:] that was then that's then [speaker002:] Yes I think it was that's right, yes [speaker003:] cos it's just got another shade on it [speaker002:] It came up on the wall like that and had a big wooden block fastened to the wall that block [speaker003:] That's right, yeah [speaker002:] so you could pull it up and down and the effects went out the bottom of the tube, the tube came up like that and it came over, and like that and then the shade would be like that and then you could swing it round [speaker001:] Swing it round [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Did you, did you get any ideas from the Design Centre about what fittings to buy? [speaker003:] Oh yes we used to go to the Design Centre, yes [speaker002:] Oh yes we used to go to the Design Centre at Haymarket er and erm, see what they had and see what was going, yes [speaker001:] It sounds as if you were both involved in the shop? [speaker002:] Oh yeah [speaker003:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker002:] Excuse me I get a Polo Mint [speaker003:] I was going to say shall I make, would you like a cup of coffee? [speaker001:] Now please tell me if I'm keeping you, I know I've been here for a very long time [speaker003:] No, are you, are you worried about your time because... [speaker002:] That, that they have garages [speaker001:] Excuse me [speaker002:] and outside the porches, to light their number up outside their house, erm people don't seem to have erm, really changed their ideas very much, we still sell the same type of fitting to people, er the one that goes over the garage doors, on the corner of the, of the house wall, er lanterns er outside the front door with coloured glass in them er things that have been going for [speaker003:] Come on sweety [speaker002:] forty, fifty years really [speaker003:] come on [speaker001:] Do you think that there's a fashion in light fittings, I mean you've noticed the change [speaker002:] There's a definite fashion of yes, yes, the only thing is, is that people are not erm, er... religious bound by the fashion, they don't, sort of say like well I think we'll have to change our porch light it looks old fashioned compared to the one next door, erm [speaker001:] What about in lounges? [speaker002:] In lounges? Well again I, I, I think that er, wall lighting is a, is a thing [speaker001:] Now? [speaker002:] er now [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and really always has been, erm, the idea of a centre is, is simply because you consider how much it costs to have a point wired when the house is, is built, er several people nowadays is ha well they buy an old house, they erm, say well we'll take out the centre light and put us in some wall lights instead you see. [speaker001:] But as far as the Harlow Corporation Housing are concerned mostly [speaker002:] They never put in any wall lights in at all [speaker001:] Well when you say wall lights do you mean brackets wall brackets? [speaker002:] These, yeah, yeah, yeah [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] yes, we, we put those in there you see [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] very soon after we got here, but er the Corporation never put any wall light in houses [speaker001:] did you ever have a desire of er a wall bracket where you didn't have to chase in the flex that it actually ran up from er a socket in the wall? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes, er we've got one upstairs in one of the bedrooms now. [speaker001:] Did, were they popular? [speaker002:] Erm... I, I can't say that we sold a lot of them I, I, and I haven't seen a lot about at all, er it's a very good idea I mean two, there's mainly two different types, one that was held up by pins which was, was quite good er and erm... and there was another one which was held up by erm a pin which ran, which the flex ran through, a stud rather than a, a pin and er two little black legs on it, was very good. [speaker001:] Can you remember the make of that? [speaker002:] Er, oh that particular one was one of erm I don't know if they've even got a lighting showroom in London now, er [speaker001:] Do you have any of their old catalogues, have you kept any old catalogues? [speaker002:] Er lighting I think I've got some old lighting catalogues, yes [speaker001:] Because I would be very interested to photograph some of them if I may? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, yeah, mm, mm, mm, mm, yeah, erm, yes I've got quite a lot of catalogues really I [speaker001:] Do you have any [speaker002:] the trouble is not having enough modern catalogues of, of things that you can actually buy today because when they manufacturer them now they don't erm make catalogues as often as they used to do er, it costs so much money in it... I'd er, I, I think that probably the next trend is going to be in lighting fittings er which will take in er you er, low energy lamps er, at the erm, the new fluorescent lamps er where erm, well there's one in the hall which takes eight watts and it's given us as much light out as a hundred watt lamp, er and [speaker001:] And it uses less power? [speaker002:] Yes, it uses eight watts against a hundred, well I say probably against seventy five, eight watts instead of seventy five and given us the same amount of light out. [speaker001:] Are people concerned about erm saving on the electricity bill? [speaker002:] I think everybody now [speaker001:] I mean from the lighting point of view as opposed to things like heating and obviously more expensive consumption. [speaker002:] Er, well certainly erm as far as erm er, obviously as industry's concerned they're extremely worried about it [speaker001:] But what about in houses? [speaker002:] In houses I don't think that people, er worry much about, about that erm [speaker001:] Do, do you think they used to in the fifties? [speaker002:] I think they didn't like a lot of bright light in the house in the fifties, er and of course before that and er now that people they've got such good lighting in the offices where they work that they feel that, well they can't bear to poor lighting at home... and yet there are still people who will watch a colour television with er no lights on in the room at all [speaker001:] Really? [speaker002:] Yes, next do [LAUGHTER], er which I think is terrible I mean er it's enough to make one [speaker001:] Because it's not necessary any more with er modern televisions is it? [speaker002:] Oh no, no, it's not necessary no, no, we have all these lights on just like this and we [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] when that's on [speaker001:] well it's not necessary [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] Oh no, there's no need to have it in the dark, you can see alright with it. [speaker001:] When you spoke about the colour shades [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] erm, the coloured pleated shades that came from [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] can you remember the, the colours that they were in? [speaker002:] Oh er, usually pale er, pale pink er again the ever cream colour which seem to, you could of painted the fifties with cream I think, erm and erm... pale blue, powder blue colour er, they were all pale colours, er pale yellow or an amber colour, they had to be pale otherwise they wouldn't let the light through [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] erm, it's only in, in things like the Chelsea glassware er of where you could really get, really strong colours er because of the thickness of the glass that they used [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] er and erm the fact that the colour was in the glass not on the glass. [speaker001:] When people came in to choose a light fitting, how often do you think that they considered what they wanted the light for, or whether they liked, or whether they choose it because they liked the style of the design of the light fitting? [speaker002:] I think that generally they came in because they liked the style erm they, they, usually had er, in their minds what they wanted and because they go round and see all these fittings at night, I mean our shop used to be all the fittings were lit up at night so that you could have a look in, erm it's very confusing I think when you, you've got an awful lot of fittings in, in, in a shop and, and all of them lit, decide which one's gonna to be the best for your house, but I think most of them already had ideas what, what sort of fitting they wanted and of course we used to do a great deal of [speaker003:] Could you put down [speaker002:] getting fittings especially for people, it [speaker003:] I'm gonna put this chair for you because I'm sure you [speaker001:] thank you [speaker003:] Do sit on my [speaker001:] Yes this is better [speaker003:] A little high there [speaker002:] Then I, I er seen fittings in er, in a friend's house or they'd seen them in the erm [speaker003:] Dougy stop it [speaker002:] glossy magazines, of course [speaker001:] Did they ever say to you I don't want a diffused light I want a direct light? [speaker002:] Mm, well, yes then I should put them off it, erm [speaker001:] But I mean did they, did they have specific, erm did they, did they have that kind of idea about the type of light they wanted or [speaker002:] [whispering] Sugar Dougy, come here [] [speaker001:] did they, or did they just like, did they just look at the colour and the shape of it, and the style of it? [speaker002:] Oh I, I think one had to consider erm, I, I'd have to ask them the size of the room, what, what sort of a room it was, er, it was no use getting the fitting which erm was either far too big for the room in it's, in it's physical size [speaker001:] Mm, mm [speaker002:] or perhaps which er wouldn't give up, wouldn't give out enough light [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] erm otherwise you'll [speaker003:] [whispering] Do you take sugar? [] [speaker001:] I do yes please [speaker002:] They'll be soon back again [speaker003:] How much? [speaker001:] One please [speaker003:] Just one? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] It's a very small spoon [speaker001:] Thank you, that's fine [speaker003:] Have a biscuit or not? [speaker001:] I will thank you. [speaker002:] This' ll be very hot I expect [speaker003:] It is [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] fairly [speaker002:] and [speaker003:] I'm sorry if Dougy's a but it's one of his great problems [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No don't worry really I'm used to animals [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] it's okay [speaker003:] Good [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm, it interests me very much how people choose er not only in light fitting, but how you choose furniture and they choose designs generally, because I have a theory that er a lot of people don't consider the practical things, maybe as much as you know like you or me when we're conscience of that sort of thing [speaker003:] Yes quite, yes [speaker002:] No, cold, er one example of that is for instance erm an Anglepoise lamp [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] a standard Anglepoise lamp er which it's been going for a number of years, you can get it in about six different colours to match different designs of, er put colour into your room, now if somebody was spending a lot of time sitting knitting and has to look at the knitting or has to look at the pattern then er a good strong light which won't get in their eyes but goes straight on to what, whatever they're doing, is by far the best thing for them, er but they say oh I don't like it, it's a bit angular isn't it, erm, modern sort of thing, er but because it's angular it doesn't mean to say it's not gonna fit into the room it's the right thing for it, er for the person doing that work. [speaker001:] Do you think it's because it doesn't look domestic enough maybe it looks a bit industrial or [speaker002:] Yes I think if it had a few [speaker003:] I think so, mm, mm [speaker002:] if it had a few twists and curls round it and little things like that and bits of gold plate on it I mean that they'd go for it, but er, because it's made for its purpose and don't want it. [speaker001:] Yes, mm [speaker002:] And yet we always do sell them, er we always have Anglepoise lamps in the shop [speaker001:] I've still got this one, thank you [speaker003:] Do you want [speaker002:] We're about the only people in, in Harlow that do sell the Anglepoise lamps [speaker003:] Yes [speaker002:] Yeah, now they've become very erm, there's nothing exciting in the lighting shops in Harlow now, at all. [speaker001:] Do you think that designs in the fifties and sixties that there was more variety? [speaker002:] Oh there was a tremendous variety, but then there were all the same in, erm you look at the er the three light fitting er it hangs down from the ceiling and has three branches out from it and it either has three lights hanging down or three hanging upwards, er with four ordinary bulbs in or candle bulbs in and shades, sometimes they have four, erm, there's still an awful lot of those about and any lighting shop you look in you'll still see plenty of those er and yet they've got a tremendous number of disadvantages, one thing, a lot of them got glass shades, if you break one shade three year's time you might as well throw away the fitting because [LAUGHTER] you can't get another one [] er, and erm... it's a design that doesn't, it doesn't lend itself to giving a good lighting in a room at all er, it they, they harsh glassware, the edges of the glass during all round the room and that sort of thing [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] doesn't help... I think that erm plastic erm, er the new plastics erm always give much more scope to lighting fittings, erm than the, the glass in the past but erm [speaker003:] Well erm from, from my observation of catalogues and I was just looking through the other day, lighting doesn't alter very much, there's nothing very impressive in any of the catalogues really [speaker002:] No but on the other hand you can look back and you can see all the things that have gone, I mean the for instance which er [speaker003:] Oh yeah, mm [speaker002:] somebody bought in large quantities er in Finland and started making up in a factory in Harlow erm, at one time, erm, they're all a bit [speaker003:] I think that period was nice [speaker002:] Yes a lot of those about er, and, erm also the Rotaflex shades [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] er [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] and erm, a lot of the types of fittings and single pendants with heavy coloured glasses on and things like that [speaker003:] Mm, I liked those [speaker002:] they were, they were all, all going, people had them, but er you don't see them nowadays [speaker003:] No, it's gone quiet do you [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] know there doesn't seem to be any er great enthusiasm for new designs at the moment. [speaker001:] Do you think that the spotlights have [speaker003:] Yes I think so [speaker001:] taken over? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, yeah [speaker001:] The modern part of the [speaker002:] yeah people have seen them at the discos and, will do, and er even, even those that gives patterns or designs people are buying, have in the house now instead of watching television, sit and watch the pattern on the wall er, but erm [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Oh no [speaker002:] Oh yes they're, they're old, they're going down as well, yes, mm [speaker001:] I couldn't bear it [speaker002:] No, but er, I don't know people, it's, it's where people get their ideas from I think for a start, I know one time we used to sell oh a lot of erm spotlights and spotlamps, but only to people who were running discos, er now erm there are people who erm, well they, they want a, a couple in the lounge or something like that or, and er, and then of course they, there's others who erm have them outside and light up their trees, at night. [speaker003:] Well a lot of people now, a lot, I mean I've known several, they put er lamps underneath plants to make, it's very effective that [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] I like it [speaker002:] Mm if you have some nice [speaker003:] if it's got a nice [speaker002:] autumn weather of course Rosie [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] it can sit outside and [speaker003:] No, I mean them indoor, indoor plants David [speaker002:] Oh indoor plants, oh [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] mm, mm, yes. [speaker001:] Could you tell me a little bit about when you first moved to Harlow, because it interests me very much the fact, I didn't, I wasn't aware that you lived in a, house that was [speaker003:] Well I came [speaker001:] built by the Corporation [speaker003:] Mm, I came to Harlow with my parents, when my husband was in the Air Force [speaker001:] During the war? [speaker003:] Mm and we moved from Sussex, here [speaker002:] The last one of course [speaker001:] Pardon? [speaker002:] The last one [speaker001:] The last one, yes [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] The last one, not the great one [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] and er, it was bad enough the, the last one, erm, and I started with the Corporation when they opened at Turlings in that, that was in nineteen forty eight... [speaker002:] Oh yes well I mean, I, I, I came back from the war [speaker003:] Aye, so [speaker002:] of course erm then we were living with your parents weren't we? [speaker003:] my husband and yes, just a minute, my husband arrived home from the war in nineteen forty eight I think it was or was it nineteen forty seven? [speaker002:] Good lord no, it was nineteen forty six,a er March nineteen forty six [speaker003:] Mm, beg your pardon [speaker002:] the war ended in forty five you know [speaker003:] Yeah forty six [speaker002:] I thought that was bad enough having to stay another year [speaker003:] Anyway, forty six and then we had no house, at all, because my mother had died and my father, we said to my father you leave if you want to we should be alright we'll find somewhere to go and we didn't and we had to have a Nissan hut for about a year, supplied by the Council [speaker002:] It was accommodated by the soldiers before wasn't it? [speaker003:] which had been occupied by soldiers, this was our first hut, well by then I was working for the Corporation and of course by virtue of my job with the chief architect I got this house and we were offered this house about two years later for two thousand pounds and we said oh we wouldn't be staying here for more than ten years in any case and we wouldn't be bothered to buy it, but then my husband started in business you see soon after he came back and we eventually got the shop and, of course it's very convenient because we're only a stone's throw from the shop you see, so we stayed here [speaker001:] You say it was [speaker002:] and eventually we bought it [speaker001:] And this was the first group of houses [speaker002:] This was the first of development of houses First of the houses [speaker003:] first of the houses that the Corporation built [speaker002:] Yeah there were, there were a hundred here actually, there's now a hundred and fourteen [speaker001:] What year were they completed? [speaker003:] Er [speaker001:] Forty nine? [speaker003:] well this, no, fifty one, er this was the last house to be completed on this estate because it had been used as a paint store and we were the very last people [speaker002:] Apart from those on the far side of the road which were built several years later on on another complex [speaker003:] Oh yes later, yes that's true, yes [speaker002:] Out of the original hundred houses this was the last one to be occupied and we saw this being built, erm right from the time that it was a plot of land and we knew it was ours [speaker003:] Brick by brick, we knew it was ours [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] er from, from the footings in other words so I was from that, it was quite interesting really [speaker003:] And hundreds of people, architects, all this development here, this hundred houses were mainly architects or engineers from the Corporation [speaker001:] Who? Who? [speaker003:] who lived in these house plus I should think about [speaker002:] Million workers [speaker003:] ten per cent of building workers and er about five per cent of British hired mechanic staff. [speaker001:] It was a mixed development? [speaker003:] It was a mixed development with very much the emphasis on Corporation staff at that time er and of course they had to house the, got house [speaker002:] But they had to house you didn't they? [speaker003:] the staff somewhere and we, we came in here and of course most of the people eventually had families and er they moved out to bigger accommodation as their families grew up, you know, er, we were very pleased to get the house of course because we'd [LAUGHTER] we'd lived in this Nissan hut for er either one or two years but it did [speaker002:] Don't know very difficult to tell the time now how er, how long these things were [speaker003:] Not er [speaker002:] but er, I know it was forty six that I er came back [speaker003:] Came back [speaker002:] because that was the year that I, I actually started the business because erm [speaker003:] That's right, mm [speaker002:] in er, we had a cutting somewhere Marie, oh I know when we became a limited company, er that's right and er we put in erm formally erm... er... take over the business [speaker003:] Patent [speaker002:] run by [speaker003:] That's right [speaker002:] er since nineteen forty six or something I don't know the date exactly [speaker003:] That's right, mm quite, mm [speaker002:] and er that's how I remember it by except for of course the war ended in nineteen forty five but weren't [speaker003:] But when we [speaker002:] we weren't the first to come back or anything [speaker003:] You're interested in the furniture side of it? [speaker001:] Yes I am [speaker003:] Well when we came here of course we had certain furniture and we just sort of er, er and we, I don't know what other people did, we just erm furnished a room at a time until we got [speaker002:] We furnished two rooms when we got in [speaker003:] We furnished two rooms when we came in here [speaker002:] that was the one bedroom and er and it was this room some what [speaker003:] and er, we never have had any hire purchase arrangements [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker003:] but I rather gather large people would get everything you see [speaker001:] Yes exactly [speaker003:] but we didn't you see, we didn't, we just got things as we went on and of course in those days, it was, what was it called? Erm tt furniture er [speaker002:] Furniture that what it were called [speaker003:] you know, erm, mm [speaker001:] What the manufacturer? [speaker003:] No, no the erm tt deary me [speaker002:] The hire purchase? [speaker003:] No, erm, that the in the war time the soldiers [speaker001:] Utility [speaker003:] Utility furniture, I couldn't think of the word [speaker001:] Did you have utility furniture? [speaker003:] No we didn't because I had bought various things, I like antiques so does my husband, I'd bought various things while he was away in this erm, the card table and er, I had a new place of stuff, er but since we've been, but we had odd chairs didn't we? Er [speaker002:] Oh yeah [speaker003:] but all of which are gone and we've replaced them with these since many, you know, quite a few years ago, er we bought one utility suite from an engineer who was going to Rhodesia and that's in our second bedroom still [LAUGHTER] it's, well the bed is but the [speaker001:] The bedroom suite? [speaker003:] The bedroom suite, yes, the bed's still there, but er, we changed the erm dressing table and the rest of it [speaker002:] I think there's only, there's only the bed there left now [speaker003:] there's only the bed there left [speaker002:] Oh yeah cos we've, we've erm, apart from the antiques we've, we've refurnished everything er at least once since we've had it [speaker003:] Just once, yes [speaker002:] and yes, er our bedroom of course is [speaker003:] Refurnished [speaker002:] completely refurnished, er [speaker003:] and the dining room's refurnished [speaker001:] You have a dining room? [speaker003:] yes you can have a look, it'll be interesting for you [speaker001:] I would be, yes [speaker003:] in seeing this house, because it's, well we think it's rather nice er, you know it's quite a [speaker002:] It's got a good long garden with this as well [speaker003:] It's got a long garden [speaker002:] more than sixty feet long and erm over the last two or three years er I've made a patio at the bottom, right the whole width of the garden [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and er eighteen feet wide so that you can get a dozen down there seated if necessary, you know, yeah [speaker001:] Really? [speaker002:] looking very pleasant... [speaker001:] Right I think so, I'll check it again in a minute just to make sure. [speaker003:] It's a complicated piece of apparatus [speaker001:] Well... the last time I came you told me [speaker003:] Well we got married in nineteen forty one and I lived first of all in Sussex where erm my mother was living because my husband went into the Air Force and he was erm away for five years, well we had a lot of bombing in the early part of the war in Sussex and my father eventually came here to Harlow thinking we were getting away from it and of course we came right into the V er what was it? What was it called? The V bomb, V bombers and the doodlebugs and er when he came home it was nineteen forty six I think or seven er, my fath er my mother had died and my father wanted to get away from the place we were in and we said oh well go ahead you know, we'll easily get somewhere and of course we didn't and they put us in a Nissan hut, which we made absolutely beautiful, we did all sorts of things to it and had a lovely garden all around it and the people from the Council use to come around and say to us oh well you don't need to be rehoused because you've made this so very nice you see, anyway I then started to work for the Corporation and then there was the possibility of course of me getting a house. [speaker001:] Could I ask you to go back and ask you to describe what the Nissan hut was like, what kind of a accommodation did you have in it? [speaker003:] What, well, we had a very large sitting dining room where we put er our dining room furniture at one end and as, the sitting room furniture at the other, it was very large actually, a Nissan hut doesn't look very big, but it is quite big... and we had one large bedroom where we got all our furniture in there and then there was er a kitchen, and there was an Elsan lavatory in the garden which er you had to go outside for that, and er, we bought a full length galvanized bath like an ordinary bath upstairs and there was a boiler in the kitchen so we used to light the fire of the boiler, fill the boiler with water from the tap, we had a, oh we had all sorts of er innovations that made life easy as could be in the circumstances, we had er hose pipe from the kitchen sink into the bathroom, we managed to get about three baths a week, cos it, it was a terrible fag, but we did, and then you just emptied the bath out and out in the drain outside you know. [speaker001:] So you had to pick it up and carry it outside? [speaker003:] Well we had to drag it and [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] till we got to near the den and do that and we spent er a year and a half there and all the time we were watching this house being built, because I was working at the Corporation and the number of people of the Corporation from the tea boy cadet down came up to see this, this and that, was nobody's business, mm, without, we enjoyed it, it was quite funny really it is [speaker001:] Were there many Nissan huts in, in the same [speaker003:] Yes there were, there were about ten I think, but they were all widely separated, we all had a lot of ground around us, so,s so you weren't on top of your next door neighbour, you didn't, you hardly see them, or hear them really, there was plenty of room. [speaker001:] And apart from the garden that you said that you made it lovely while you were there, what other things did you do to make it look like a home? [speaker003:] Well for instance a lot of people didn't even bother to erm make the kitchen floor into anything reasonable, but we did, we, we got some very good, very heavy and put it down, it, on the kitchen floor of this place, and in the, our sitting room we had a carpet it was er a carpet of David's mother's actually, but it covered the entire sitting room and it looked rather nice you know, because it was a big room and we also had a carpet of sorts in the bedroom. [speaker001:] And did you buy new furniture when you [speaker003:] Oh no, no I'd, I had a new case of furniture, I had some of this furniture there. [speaker001:] Antique furniture? [speaker003:] Antique furniture, yes, erm, because I'd bought that during the war in various antique places, you know, and erm, what did we buy, no I think my father gave us the bedroom furniture was, which was at the at the time and we took that with us, which was an old fashioned, a really old Victorian suite which we got rid of when we moved into this house. [speaker001:] So you didn't buy any utility furniture? [speaker003:] So we didn't buy very, little utility furniture, the only utility furniture we've got is, it used to be a bedroom suite up in that second bedroom, we've still got the bed of that, that was utility, but had we been in the market we would of bought utility because it was very good, some of it was really good if you looked around and erm, you know, choose your furniture, it was very good [speaker001:] Could you tell me a bit more about that, because I don't know anything at all about utility furniture [speaker003:] About utility furniture, well you know the G Plans that now that there is, well this utility furniture to my mind if you choose really good makes of your utility furniture it was rather, after the style I would say G Plan, that was I've always imagined it were, it was good quality of, of a price that people could afford, if you got the right erm, type of stuff. [speaker001:] So there was a difference in quality between one make [speaker003:] I would think so, yes I think, I would think so because the bedroom suite, the bed upstairs er of that er suite is quite a good quality bed, you know, it's only a spring mattress of course it's not a, it's not a box thing like we'd have today, I mean, what we have in our other room, I've always intended to change it, but never got round to it, but it er just had a spring mattress, but it was good quality of its time [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] er, and I would think, well like any furniture now wherever you go you can buy the most atrocious furniture can't you? And pay terrific amount of money for it [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] and you can buy something, well which would appeal to me, anyway, er for not very much more if you look around. I rather like a lot of the G Plan stuff I like very much. [speaker001:] But there wasn't very much choice in the styles was there? [speaker003:] Oh no, no there was, erm... it was very utilitarian, very er, were I should think plan would use the I, I don't think er, I can't remember a great deal about utility furniture apart from the fact that we have just this one bedroom suite, but remembering back to the, er we had the bed and the chest, the chest was very plain and very nice, very nice [speaker001:] And you don't still have it? [speaker003:] I don't still have it, no, no it had got knocked about a bit, you know, being moved hither and thither and the other people have had it a bit as well as us, because we bought it from the people who lived next door when they left you see, cos when we started in here, we didn't have any carpets on these floors or under here it's brown Marley tiling... and I can still show you that [speaker001:] Oh yes [speaker003:] brown tiles and it was brown tiles all in that room and of course we couldn't, we had started a business and all the money had gone into the business and we couldn't afford to, to start carpeting, it was impossible, so, but that room really looked superb I think, I had huge rugs, you know, one in front of the fireplace and another one this end and the other end in colour, in colours, and there really, it really looked nice and the floor was polished up to the nines, you know, er right through here all polished all the same colour [speaker001:] And you moved into the house in nineteen fifty [speaker003:] Nineteen fifty one, we moved in, er and, I've had, you're not the first person to come all round here, this house, they used, they used to come round in shows from the Corporation all visitors used to come, they used to say, right Jean can we bring them round [LAUGHTER] we've had people from Germany [] and everywhere and being in the architect's department I fell for all this [LAUGHTER] you know I had [] [speaker001:] This is all very much in the early days [speaker003:] Yes, right in the early days. [speaker001:] So you worked with the Corporation [speaker003:] From nineteen forty eight [speaker001:] until nineteen fifty two? [speaker003:] Yes, and during that time they used to have a lot of people visiting from overseas [speaker001:] And Chipping Field was rather like a, like a sort of prototype for Harlow New Town. [speaker003:] Well it was the first hundred houses that were built in the New Town and it housed a lot of building trade workers, a lot of engineers and a lot of archi well a lot, a few architects and a few engineers and the rest were building trade workers or of some sort or another, and a few British Hydro Research Association been put down on this [speaker001:] So mostly people involved with [speaker003:] Most the people who were involved with getting the town together, from the beginning [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] you know, right from the beginning. [speaker001:] And how did you feel about moving from the Nissan hut into a brand new house? [speaker003:] Oh absolutely marvellous we watched the house go up brick by brick, you know, we, we used to come down here and think oh my goodness won't it be marvellous to be able to run some water and have a bath in the [LAUGHTER] normal way you know [] cos we don't, we'd both always had electricity and baths and everything else until this happened and erm, we er, oh it was wonderful, really wonderful... absolutely marvellous [speaker001:] And how did you feel about the New Town being born? [speaker003:] Oh well we had no feelings about it because I really wasn't an Old Harlow person, nor was my husband and all that we could think about it was that it would be very good for the area, it would erm, bring work and employment and everything like that, but of course Old Harlow people were very, you know, a lot of them were very against it and yet, in the end, the Harlow High Street shops was, made a fortune in those first few years, you know, when there was nothing else and the, the Old Harlow High Street wasn't of course paved over in those days, anything like that and it, it was a narrow, narrow high street, it was almost like taking your life in your hands walking down there because there were crowds of people obviously with all this influx of community and they er... the main Chelmsford road used to come up through there, so it was a, a hell, sort of a traffic hazard really. [speaker001:] And how did you feel about the sudden influx of a lot of people and? [speaker003:] Well, I didn't mind it was quite interesting, for one thing erm... we were sort of off the beaten track here and although we're in the town you might say, we're out of it, we're in the country aren't we? You see [speaker001:] But don't you think that gen that Harlow generally has that feeling? [speaker003:] Well it does here, I don't know er, I wouldn't say in some of the parts of Harlow I would get that feeling, but then I am really a country person at heart and I don't like towns anyway, so I'm not really the best person to ask, no. [speaker001:] Could we go back and perhaps you tell me, erm what it felt like, for example cooking a meal or doing the washing in a Nissan hut and the difference of when you came in to to Chipping Field [speaker003:] Well the difference was like moving from purgatory into heaven really, because er... in the Nissan hut I had one tap of cold water, that's all, every bit of water had to be heated on a gas stove, and every bit of water for a bath had to be heated in an old fashioned er boiler in which you lit the fire under... and of course when you came here we had a ni an electric cooker, er straight away [speaker001:] Was it a new one? [speaker003:] Yes I had a brand new electric cooker, that was one of our buys, I didn't have a washing machine when we got here, but I had a wash boiler, an ordinary wash boiler. [speaker001:] Did you have a refrigerator? [speaker003:] Yes I did have a refriger I had, we bought a refrigerator and er a cooker and it sat in that recess there, that was our big buy when we first came, er we had a bedroom suite when we came here and we had sufficient furniture to, to erm furnish the sitting room and we had er a suite of furniture in here erm [speaker001:] Was it this one? [speaker003:] No, an oak table and an oak sideboard and that was all and just four chairs or six chairs I think it was, yes, er and it was erm that furniture was a utility, er I'd forgotten about that, it's taken me back now, that was a utility dining room suite of really first class quality, it was a tallish sideboard with two doors with big bow legs and a square table, erm, but it was solid oak really good [speaker001:] Can you remember the make? [speaker003:] Ooh no I can't, I can remember where we bought it, we bought it in Hillsham and we paid about two hundred pounds for it, I know, erm, what was I saying? [speaker001:] Sorry I interrupted you. [speaker003:] Er, I can't remember what I said, oh... no it's gone [speaker001:] Oh [speaker003:] It was a joy to be able to go and have a bath every night [LAUGHTER] you know [] to just run the water and find it came out hot, it was absolutely marvellous [speaker001:] How was the water heated, by a boiler? [speaker003:] No, by an immersion heater, yeah [speaker001:] Electric? [speaker003:] Electric immersion heater, er, ah, oh of course we had an Ideal boiler under there and it, that's what heated this kitchen actually an Ideal boiler and it heated the water in the winter and also heated the, and in the summer we let that out and had an immersion heater, well being in the electrical trade we had an immersion heater all the time and if we wanted to top up from the boiler we used to just put the immersion heater on for a erm week or so and get hot water and then let it go off in the winter time, you know, but er... we haven't made a great deal of alteration to this place really, we've put a new front door on fairly recently, that was one of the things that er was very ugly, they, the back of the front of the doors to look at, ooh they were ugly doors [speaker001:] Where they metal [speaker003:] Er [speaker001:] frame? [speaker003:] erm [speaker001:] Were they glazed? [speaker003:] They were glazed with ribbed glass, you could see quite a lot of them on Chipping Field, still, er and nearly everyone who's bought their houses have altered the doors, but a lot of people have put these wooden doors in you know [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] filled in and that, and they look completely out of er they don't look part of the house to me [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] I don't know whether it's er me or whether it's er [speaker001:] Talking about front doors I've noticed that a lot of the houses have got two doors on the front side [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] one which is the front door and [speaker003:] that's the front door and that's the back door, through there [speaker001:] Yes, do you have one as well? [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] Yes, how did you feel about that when you first came to live here? [speaker003:] Er, well having, no did, didn't worry me at all [speaker001:] Because a lot of people of, were very disturbed about having two doors on the, on the front, they felt that one should be on the back by the side [speaker003:] By the side you can't with a terrace, can you really, yeah, I think any terrace, surely would have two doors on the front, wouldn't it? [speaker001:] If they have two doors it's not [speaker003:] If they have two doors, yes [speaker001:] Could, the furniture that's right er was there [speaker003:] was one [speaker001:] was there any furniture that you could buy which wasn't rationed? [speaker003:] Well yes you could go to antique shops and buy that sort of furniture [speaker001:] Yes, but you couldn't buy all new? [speaker003:] secondhand no, no, no new furniture [speaker001:] No new furniture? [speaker003:] no, it was rationed, and er, talking about erm people's taste having changed, I think the media has a great deal to do with that because when you look at things on television you can see how... people [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] do things, can't you? [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] You can see furniture, you can see old houses, Arthur Neagus going round all these old houses, you can see a lot of things now, that the normal public never would see in the, the ordinary man in the street probably never saw them at one time, but I think this must of made a difference to people. [speaker001:] What do you think influenced you, I mean if you went to choose a chair did you sit on it to see if it was comfortable or were you more interested in what it looked like? [speaker003:] Oh no I think I'd want it to be comfortable, but I'd also want it to look well what I considered to be nice. [speaker001:] Do you think that the sizes of the rooms that people considered the sizes of the rooms when they choose furniture? [speaker003:] I don't know [speaker001:] It's difficult [speaker003:] I don't know about that, it's difficult [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] very difficult bottom cupboards and the rest of it, therefore I wanted that and I wanted this [speaker001:] Would you call this a dresser? [speaker003:] No it's a desk actually [speaker001:] Because it's [speaker003:] because it's got a desk, it's desk and er, we keep it, er this comes down as a desk, you can write on there [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] and erm the rest is just cupboards for glasses and cutlery and my hu husband's inevitable lots and lots of papers that he has everywhere [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mm, do you think that it's important to have a sideboard as a piece of furniture, because a dining room isn't a dining room without a sideboard or? [speaker003:] No, no, that wouldn't worry me, I just, I said when we got rid of our other sideboard let's do without one and then I looked round and thought well what the dickens am I going to do with all this stuff that we've got and I just found that we couldn't do without it. [speaker001:] Mm, so [speaker003:] We had to take the door off there, there used to be a door on there, but to get this long sideboard in we had to take the door off [speaker001:] Really? [speaker003:] otherwise the door took up so much room, you see. A lot of things that I'd still do here if, if I could whip up some enthusiasm [LAUGHTER] if my husband would, I can't [], he was a bricklayer, sub contractor and they have knocked this kitchen out about three times since they've been there, and the last, this last effort, I think they've put imitation beams in, I haven't seen it, but we think they have and er, oh it's, you wouldn't know it's the same house at all, you wouldn't know it [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] He was and because he was getting on in years and er didn't get out as much as usual, my husband said we'd get a television for him and we had a black and white television [speaker001:] Would you remember what year that was? [speaker003:] Oh, dear he's been dead, ten... it must of been the ten, this is eighty two, seventy two, about sixty five I should think about sixty five [speaker001:] So it was long, long after most people in Harlow [speaker003:] A long, long after most people had televisions here [speaker001:] Especially in Harlow? [speaker003:] in Har oh everybody had television before us [speaker001:] Mm, mm [speaker003:] the same way is, now is everybody is rushing out buying videos [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] how on earth they can afford it I just don't know [LAUGHTER] it's ridiculous [] [speaker001:] And when you came to find a place to put the television in your living room [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] or do you call this living room? [speaker003:] We call this the sitting room [speaker001:] The sitting room [speaker003:] Yes, yes [speaker001:] did you have difficulty finding where to place it? [speaker003:] Er, well no, it's always been in the place it's in now [speaker001:] Next to the fireplace [speaker003:] next to the fire place, er a lot of people have put it up in this corner and, but [speaker001:] Near the window [speaker003:] near the window, but we decided that that's where we wanted it, it suited us and that's where we put it. It never has moved from there because our two chairs and it's normally only two of us watching it, cos if we've got visitors we never have it on, you know, er they just face that way and it's convenient and that's where we put it. [speaker001:] Do you feel that it competes with the fireplace as a focal point in the room? [speaker003:] No, no [speaker001:] So it's a double focal point [speaker003:] Yes, yes, it doesn't compete with the fireplace, we have a, a, er mock fire in there you know, normally in the winter that, that's on and it looks, it's very realistic, it almost looks as if it is a fire glowing all the time cos there's a rotary spinner in it and it flickers, er, and er the room is very warm because it's central heated anyway and, no I wouldn't say, it never bothers me the television, I don't suppose that er, if I were left on my own I'd hardly have it left on [LAUGHTER] you know [] I think men watch television more than women. [speaker001:] And do you think that the, the room wouldn't be the same without the fireplace, without the glowing red, even though it's very warm with the central heating, you still need [speaker003:] Oh yes I think, I think you need a focal point, I think, I'd find it rather difficult without a fireplace at all. [speaker001:] So really it, the, the fireplace is more of a focal point than would the [speaker003:] I would say [speaker001:] television? [speaker003:] Oh yes, yes I would say that yes, and of course that fireplace is the original fireplace, and it's very nice isn't it don't you think? [speaker001:] It's very nice [speaker003:] Mm lovely [speaker001:] and the erm, when you moved in obviously you had to use it [speaker003:] Oh yes we had coal fires [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] yes [speaker001:] What kind of coal, fuel did you use? [speaker003:] Well we used erm, a smokeless fuel of which we found very good, I forget what it was, er [speaker001:] Was it rationed? [speaker003:] It was like Coalite, er when we first came here, oh yes it was, yes, but we have electric fires of course as well to, what we did because we were both out working all the time, we had electric fires and I think my husband, husband had them allied to a timeswitch and they came on before we came in, an hour or so, before we came in this room and in that room [speaker001:] That was a modern, that was an innovation [speaker003:] Yes, yes, that was an innovation [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] I mean we did a lot of things that other people probably didn't do, I always remember next door to us at one time the curate of the St Mary's church, er, who is er, he is now Bishop of... mm, gosh, he's a up in Nottingham way, Bishop of something or other, we met him at a, at a do not so very long ago and he's just the same, he's marvellous and he was the curate and they were as poor as church mice and er in relation to them we were really well off you know, and er they had hardly any fires or anything and we gave them an electric fire to heat their place up and er... when we met him, it was last February at a, a do of one of the research engineers from where I was work working the last job I had and er, he said I've still got the electric fire [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And that would of been what in the fifties? [speaker003:] That would of been in the fifties [speaker001:] Yes, yeah [speaker003:] early fifties [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] fifty fiveish [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] yes, certainly is.

[speaker001:] Drug abuse wrecks lives and families! So is it here to stay... or could we, all of us, do without drugs? [introduction music] [speaker002:] We all take drugs in some form or another, some are legal, you can buy them over the counter or your G P may prescribe, those are illegal, but still widely available and used at a price. What we're looking at in this half hour is why and how we use drugs and what we might change. And let's start with a question, do you take prescribed, or illegal drugs? Or have you ever taken? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And if there's anything surprising about that results, it's that nineteen people say they've never taken any kind of drug! Eighty one have said yes. What have you taken, or what do you take? Yes? [speaker003:] Erm, inhaler for asthmatic attack, well to prevent asthmatic attacks. [speaker002:] And have you been taking that for quite a while? [speaker003:] Erm,sin, well... I think, er... about seven years. [speaker002:] And you would go on taking it because it's a [speaker003:] I don't need it very often, erm... I'm not a bad asthmat, it's an allergy to animals [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] so it's... a rare occasion have to use it, but I probably have... to have one with me all, for the rest of my life. [speaker002:] Okay. Up there. [speaker004:] I take Thyroxin for an under-active thyroid gland. [speaker002:] Mhm. And these are prescribed drugs then? [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] You get that from your doctor? Yes? [speaker005:] Maccresin for a, arthritis. [speaker002:] For arthritis, right. Yes? [speaker006:] I take Tamazapam to sleep. Erm, and I have no side effects to it, I've been on it for quite a long while. [speaker002:] Every night? [speaker006:] Every night. One every night. It induces four hours of sleep, and if you sleep after that it's a normal sleep. I waken up fine [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] no problems. [speaker002:] And how long have you been doing that? [speaker006:] Erm... nine years. [speaker002:] And why did you start? [speaker006:] I had a bereavement, a very close bereavement in the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] family and they put me onto valium, but having worked in psychiatric I knew the results of valium, so I I gradually broke them down and got off them... but for six full months I couldn't sleep [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] so they did put me onto some. But, I I kno, I do use them as they're prescribed, one [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] per night. And they do help. [speaker002:] So you've got a drug that you can live with? [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker007:] Steroids. My mother takes these. [speaker002:] Okay. Any others? Yes? [speaker008:] I used illegal drugs... erm [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] for seven year. [speaker002:] Yo yo you did do? [speaker008:] I did, aye. [speaker002:] Now, now you're the first person who's said you used ill ill illegal drugs, I... yes? [speaker009:] I've took illegal drugs and prescribed drugs. [speaker002:] You did or you do? Or yo you [speaker009:] I take prescribed drugs now. [speaker002:] Yes. But, did you used to take illegal drugs? [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well let's, since we've got onto that... why? [speaker009:] Just to get a hit. Just to feel good, forget or whatever! [speaker002:] And how old were you when you started doing that? [speaker009:] Started at fourteen or so. [speaker002:] Yeah. And how did,an how did you begin? I mean was it... through your... friends or... family or [speaker009:] You just take one, I just... my pal had a bad or something and... she was prescribed er... a se, a certain kind of sleeping tablet, Tamazapam... and just I started in to say... amounts up to twenty five at the end of the, do you know what I mean? [speaker002:] It's quite expensive isn't it? [speaker009:] Ah but... you need it. [speaker002:] So, how did you change? Did you see [speaker009:] Er... I went er... er sa... C D P S [speaker002:] Mhm. Do you wanna say what that is? [speaker009:] Well it was er... it's Community Drugs Project [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker009:] Scheme. And erm... to get pro... a nurse, like you get a... along with the nurse. She's here... er, and she... put me in a hospital and then going off for something. [speaker002:] And that was that? [speaker009:] Mm. Well [speaker002:] And you [speaker009:] I'm still on... some stuff. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] But she got me so, over the worse part, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. And what would you say to a fourteen year old girl... who might be watching this... who might think of doing the same thing? [speaker009:] Just none of you ever tra... da er, it ruins your life, ruins your family and everything! [speaker002:] Don't try it once? [speaker009:] No. Waste of time! [speaker002:] Would you say the same thing? [speaker010:] Aye, I would gi that. I would advise [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker010:] erm, any young person never to try it. It ruins and wrecks your own life and family's life as well! [speaker002:] Well we've got onto illegal drugs, and of course le or, do you think illegal drugs are attractive almost because they are illegal? I mean,th there are other things that can give you a hit. There are, there are legal drugs in our society, and you may not think they should be legal, I don't know, there's... there's er, alcohol, I suppose is the most commonly used one but [speaker010:] It would start probably because they are illegal, erm... but basically because everybody else running about me... er, was trying it, my friends so... it basically boiled down to peer pressure... at the start. [speaker002:] So what were you taking? [speaker010:] Heroin. [speaker002:] From the start? [speaker010:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And did it give you a high? [speaker010:] At the start, aye. [speaker002:] And then what happened? [speaker010:] And then it just became a drug that I had to take for every day use. Erm, had to take it to feel normal. [speaker002:] And how difficult is it to stop doing that? [speaker010:] Oh it's very difficult. But now I've been drug-free for over a year... erm... but I'd been trying for a few year before that and had nay managed to... succeed. But through the help er, the group that I'm well involved in, which is Carlton Athletic Recovery Group [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] I've managed... to stay straight to day. [speaker002:] And what was the point at which you thought... I want to stop doing this? I want to get off drugs? [speaker010:] Well the point that I wanted to get off drugs was, my family... not wanting any more to do with me, erm, they'd shut the door on me. I've got two young sons as well, erm... they two got took off me into foster care, and that was when I really had to decide it was the either the drugs or the children. [speaker002:] So it was one day you made the decision and you stuck with it? [speaker010:] No, not just one day, as I said, I'd been trying for a few [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker010:] year but... the end result came... when the two children did get took into foster care... erm, that's when... I realized that it was a problem and I had to do something about it. [speaker002:] What what what do you think of those two experiences? Yes? [speaker001:] I admire them for being able to sit there in front of everybody and say they actually, what they've been through because it must have been sheer hell... er, trying to come off and withdrawal symptoms, I mean, I don't know much about it cos I've never taken... well I smoke and I take a drink, but hard drugs... misused drugs... it just must be shu he sheer hell! And if... they're coming out stating that your families turned their back, they've had enough [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] who do you turn to? [speaker002:] These, these seem to be extreme stories. Mhm? Er, I do believe that er, if the question was asked have people taken less, you know no not heroin Mm. but dabbled in it in a a younger age? And what the response was to it because, well I I did try it merely... sort of to experience it, and I don't think that it was an addictive experience and Aha. I really don't think there was any ill effects at the time. What, what are we talking about here? Well erm... just er dope re, you Dope. know, marijuana. Yeah. Yeah. Are they bo And having smoked the odd joint I don't really feel Mm. that... it was... it was that detrimental. Okay. Well le let [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] well le, let's ask that tha that question then. Have you ever used... illegal drugs? And I'm not going to pick on you so you can feel free to answer the question. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Button one for yes, and button two for no. I mean, nobody has to speak who doesn't want to. [speaker008:] Can I answer that question? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] Marijuana is nothing like taking... heroin, smack, whatever, it's nothing like it! [speaker003:] I think we should maybe ask the question why youngsters take drugs... and, maybe we would get to the root of the problem. [speaker002:] And what do you think the answer to that is? [speaker003:] Erm, sometimes they'll say they're bored. Maybe [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] we have to... try and divert their attention. [speaker004:] Probably the only way to try and prevent it is to go into the schools... and get people that have been through the proble, the problem theirselves... to go into the schools and try and educate the kids to stay off drugs. Because, you're getting it, I know in the east end of Glasgow where I come from [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] you're getting them as young as... eleven and twelve... and, they're trying these drugs. You wonder how they're getting them. They're getting them because... you've got... old drug addicts going to the doctors getting prescribed drugs that is nay there. Th the one do they really want them? But [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] it does to get them money... because they can sell that... and then go and get the, the drug they re, they require theirself. So they can enter the secondary schools and they're selling it to these young kids that just don't know any better. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So I think if... what we're doing just now, cos I'm part of Carlton Athletic as well, and what we're doing just now is trying to get into the secondary schools in the east end, and getting this message across to the kids not ee... to buy these drugs. [speaker002:] Yep. Over there. [speaker005:] There actually is a drug-wise... project [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] that is run in the secondary schools in the first year... where the children are talked to by the police and they see videos and they are a act [speaker004:] They must have terrible programmes! [speaker005:] they are act to they are, asked to respond to [speaker004:] Aha. [speaker005:] various situations and they [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] do role play [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] and all sorts of things to try and discourage them from this. [speaker002:] You don't think that's a good... thing? [speaker004:] I've, I've used... well I've decided not to use the drug- wise project. I worked in the east end for a year with young people, I think it's very, very moralistic, I don't like the idea of the police coming in and... and teaching [speaker002:] What [speaker004:] the the... group work... sessions. I to, I think it's a very [speaker002:] What what what would you pu [speaker004:] bad package! [speaker002:] What would you prefer? [speaker004:] I think what we should be looking at is pu, campaigning for de-criminalization of soft drugs, like cannabis [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] because... the use of recreational drugs like that is not necessarily problematic. And I also think that we should looking at harm reduction methods, in schools definitely... not drug- wise. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker006:] If you carry what [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] you're saying to it's logical conclusion, then why don't we just... erm, open up Hampden up... sell the stuff there, you know... people, you know, if children want it or... adults [speaker004:] I don't [speaker006:] or anyone, why not have [speaker004:] Well [speaker006:] it there? [speaker004:] why not? [speaker006:] I mean tha I I I I don't think that's [speaker004:] A lot of that isn't harmful. [speaker006:] Is is that what you want for children? [speaker004:] Well we sell alcoho [speaker006:] Or young people? [speaker004:] we sell alcohol... quite freely. [speaker002:] Well maybe you should just [speaker004:] Quite socially acceptable. [speaker002:] Wha what do you mean de [speaker004:] But it [speaker002:] criminalize? I mean, do you mean that you would mean that you would get it on [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] or that it should be a think it should just be available in... in shops? [speaker004:] With, with certain regulations. Er [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker004:] with er, there would be a certain amount of state control. [speaker002:] Er, behind you. Mhm. [speaker007:] Erm... we talk about cannabis being made [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] legal... now, if some of the people here could see the damage... that cannabis does, it's the first step... towards hard drugs! And I don't know anybody... that addicts, I deal with a lot of addicts, and a lot of families... and it all started on cannabis... so, you should nah talk about legalizing... any drug! [speaker008:] One thing that I think we have to be very careful about, if we did legalize cannabis... there would be a proportion of adolescents... who would get a great kick out of it, but there would those who don't get the kick because it's not illegal. There are people who feel that it's great to break the law, and... a word of caution, that I feel is important, is that the same group of kids will react against drug programmes in the schools. I don't know that the school's is the right vehicle for this... because in many ways, the children who are getting into these things pay more attention to the peer group, and it's more important to have community groups, community cafes, things which are not seen as authority getting at them. [speaker009:] So why do [speaker002:] Yeah? Up, up there. Up there. Yes? [speaker010:] I think we really have to look at the Dutch experience and [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker010:] see... that the fact that in Amsterdam... theyde-criminalized cannabis and they do not have the same kind of problems. It means that the drug squad there can concentrate on harder drugs, and certainly I I pu, a recent interview with a... a police inspector from Amsterdam said he would rather... deal with, you know, he would rather have cannabis users than certainly alcohol, problems with alcohol. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes? [speaker001:] Erm, I just think that over the generations er ma a er perhaps we're forgetting that in the seventies, for instance, er well, cannabis was a... at that time a popular, a popular thing, but you also had ecstasy isn't either the main thing in the in the papers [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] but er, even then if you, if you could go to your doctor, if you wanted slimming tablets, they gave you Dexadrin or [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] a derivative of it, which gave you the same high that ecstasy does and er, and if you didn't it from the doctor you could buy it on the street. So that's twenty two years go, and ecstasy, I think's only the same thing reoccurring. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It's like er a fashion and because it's on the black market, it's infinitely more attractive. The papers have taken it up, and as such, there's an awful lot of hype about it, and I think makes it more attractive. [speaker002:] Yes? Well I just wonder you, there has got to be some kind of... relationship between the fact that most people who take drugs live in really run down deprived areas. I mean, I think tha that you have to look at that. Because people have got nothing to do! Er, I mean lots of people have got nothing to do and are unlikely to be employed during that time. So you think, you think people who live in in well off areas, there's lots to do don't take drugs? No! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You don't think that? Oh well, you know... No, I don't think that, but I think that you have to... I mean there has to some kind of relationship between... I'm not saying it's anything to do with the personalities or anything like that but Yes. it's got something to do with the fact that... people have got nothing to do in those areas, and no cha, no prospects, no chance of getting a job and it's actually quite a purposeful way of spending your time. [speaker010:] I think that's really patronizing! You're saying that [speaker002:] No, but I don't mean to be patronizing. [speaker010:] if I help with addict that they need to compensate for for... er, things missing in their lives, perhaps they just like it. [speaker002:] Yes. Yeah! Well maybe. I mean there's nothing wrong with... I mean people do just like. [speaker003:] I think [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I think if you talk to drug users themselves, we've already heard about some of them talking about coming off drugs [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] if you talk to drug users who will tell you coming off drugs or withdrawal symptoms are not as hard as many people believe that they are. What they do find difficult is filling their day once they have actually come off drugs because they have built up a kind of lifestyle that has already been said [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] around their use of drugs [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and in areas where there isn't any chance of them [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] getting jobs, they find this... really the most difficult part of staying off drugs. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] I think there's, there's quite a difference, erm, in between physical dependency and psychological dependency [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] when you're talking about taking drugs... and it's been shown that the effects erm... the biological dependency isn't that great and it's no sort of worse than coming off... erm, having a bad cold [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] whereas a psychological dependency is what's really... you know, difficult and what makes it hard for people to come off drugs. And studies have shown that if people are injected, even with not a drug... that sort of, satisfies their need for a while, and what does work is a change of environment for people and that does come down to people not, you know, being able to work, people being unemployed, and also peer group pressure like th, the woman said over there. Erm, if all your friends take drugs then you're more likely to erm, take them and it's harder [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] to break that habit. [speaker002:] Mhm. In front, yes? You. [speaker005:] Like the woman said there, there seems to be a lot of help for people who are on drugs, and who then want to come off them, but the after-care service seems to be... you know, a lot... erm, there's not a lot help for the people, they get the help to come off the drugs and then they're put back into the society that they are from... and they seem to still have that pressure to go back to where they were previously. [speaker002:] Is tha is that, is that true? Are the support services inadequate? I mean there are a number of professionals here. Yes? [speaker006:] Erm, I work in a project at the Southern General Hospital in Glasgow, and one of the things, there's young who experiment with drugs whether we like it or not, and I think it depends what drug i is available at that time, so we could sit here and go through the different periods of time. But I think, we've not been good attracting women into services, I think, the responsibility that a woman drug user has over child care and a whole range of other things that male drug users don't have. Erm, yes [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] then I think, we haven't, I think we're getting better at attracting women into services and and... providing what they're looking for but we need to hear from them what they're looking for, erm er with, from those services. And certainly, if you look residential centres, which is one part of, of a treatment erm of what we have in Scotland or or nationally [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] erm, isn't very good, for women with children in particular. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Isn't it also about the hypocris, hypocrisy of a society that's saying that one kind of a drug is okay, and another sort of a drug isn't okay? Erm, I mean one [speaker002:] Which one is wi which ones are you thinking [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] of? [speaker007:] Well, alcohol's okay. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker007:] I mean it's okay to come to this studio and, in Edinburgh and walk up a busy street and see people going into pubs and being drunk! But it's not okay to walk up the same street and see somebody using something else, obviously. And, surely it's about erm... helping... [sigh], I don't know how you go about it but the illegality of it prevents people admitting it and asking for help, and taking erm any advice that people can give about using it safely. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] And it's about safe drug use, you know what I [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker007:] mean? Mm. [speaker002:] Well, safe drug use is quite a challenging concept. I mean I... may maybe decriminalization is part of that but I, as someone said why sho, why shouldn't people take... er, drugs if they want to, they're allowed to take other drugs? What do you think about that? I mean i i [speaker007:] Well that's what I'm saying, you know drugs... erm, well you're looking at society where we're given drugs to make us feel better. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] I mean there's a lady down there talking about taking [speaker002:] Tamazapam to help her sleep and has no problems with that, fair enough! But there was another lady there talking about taking Tamazapam as a drug of abuse... and tha, that's the difficulty. I wonder how many of you have experience of taking tranquillizers? Do you? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And I'm sure that medical people here will correct me if I'm misusing [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] the term tranquillizers. Well thirty nine people say yes, sixty one no. Of those, of those thirty nine has a, has it been a good experience... or not? Yes? [speaker008:] No! I had a very [speaker002:] No? [speaker008:] bad experience with tranquillizers! My father died erm... sixteen years ago... and I was put on to tranquillizers, up until that point I had never needed a drug in my life, and I was put onto tranquillizers and I had a terrible experience! [speaker002:] Did you ask to be put onto tranquillizers? [speaker008:] No. Th we th, I think at that time it was just the done thing, you hand out tranquillizers, erm... but I found it a, a really bad experience [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] and ended up having to take anti-depressants to... reduce the effects of the tranquillizers. [speaker002:] So you actually became dependant on... the tranquillizers did you or or or you simply had [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] such bad experience on them? [speaker008:] Ah, yes I, and I've never [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] taken one since. And I refuse under any circumstances to take them! [speaker010:] I'm just going to comment on... the lady over there. I never went to the extremes with heroin, but I was addicted to valium for seven years... erm... and I've been clean from valium for four months... erm... through a drug programme in Brenda House [speaker002:] Right. [speaker010:] Erm [speaker001:] I went to the doctor at seventeen, just about to be married and he put me on Librium to calm me down. My parents were absolutely shocked when I went home from the doctor, seventeen year old and... living on... drugs, so so to speak, just because I was a bit excited about [LAUGHTER] getting married []! You know it was... [speaker002:] And di, did you take the Librium? [speaker001:] I was entitled to! [speaker002:] See, extraordinary! Yes? I take Attavan... on on a nightly basis Yep. simply to... shut off my brain to enable me to sleep, much the same as the Mm. lady over there I've no bad experience with it, I am not muddled-headed during the day Mhm. erm, it just allows me... to switch off. Mhm. I didn't know specifically asking for a sleeping tablet. And during the time where Attavan was getting a very bad press, I went back to the doctor and said, would it be advisable for me to change? Mm. I still want something... to turn me off at night, er and is... Attavan that bad? If so, can you give me an alternative? And he said, in the... with the, the drug,th, with the amount that I was taking,the, there was no need to co, er concern myself with it. [speaker003:] Don't you think that a lot of doctors are too willing to hand out these tranquillizers? They see these weak [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] women coming into their surgeries, highly strung and th the answer to their problems is, give them a tranquillizer and be done with them! [speaker004:] Ye, I feel actually women go, or people in general, go to the doctors expecting a tablet, a prescription, and are very disappointed if they don't get one. Erm, but I personally think there's a lot of other things that the doctors could be... offering, er, pointing us in the direction of er... relaxation techniques and, all sorts of things. Erm, I think they're quite good at saying stop smoking, or stop taking it but... we don't offer anything in it's place. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] And I think that... drug taking has always been here, it will probably always be here, but in most people's life it's a transient thing, it's a phase... perhaps erm... as animals we like to change our mental state? I don't know, there's ha pu, I think there's a lot of reasons why. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] Rec, erm the lady behind was stating that recent a, I mean recently I had about, er went through a bereavement, lost [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker005:] my brother who I was very close to... went to the doctor... and, instantly he,pres, er prescribed Tamazapam tablets for me, knowing that I myself am a single parent so I have... a responsibility. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] I've my daughter to look after. Didn't ask me anything! Just looked at me... saw how I was, prescribed the Tamazapam tablets, and I had a terrible experience with those... and that's only in the last year! [speaker002:] And so, how's that affe, I mean, what do you think about that? Because at the end of the day are we not responsible for ourselves? I mean you don't have to take drugs! [speaker005:] But you're taking a, a, a G P's word... for it, that these tablets that he's given you are gonna help you through the emotional pain [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] that you are going through. They done nothing for me... at all! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] I had a phobia about going to the dentist, and the doctor wanted to give me tranquillizers... but I didn't want to take them, so I actually went for hypnotherapy which helped. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] In the past we had a lot more... family structure and friends, a good neighbourhood network, but if you had problems... er, you could go, you could talk about it [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] you could... get it out of your system. But now women are meant to go along... on an even keel... and when something upsets them... they think tha e, I shouldn't be able to express this any more, so I'll go to the G P and he'll give me something and then the emotions will go away, but unfortunately they don't go away, they just go wandering, they'll come back again at another point. [speaker008:] I think there's something that we haven't discussed, and that's that, doctors don't seem to prescribe tranquillizers to men, it's women, and they do wrongly prescribe them to women. [speaker002:] Is that true? [speaker001:] No. No. [speaker008:] In my experience it is. [speaker002:] Maybe men talk about it even less than women do. I mean do do yo, do you think women take more drugs than men do, whether recreationally or or or fo for their health or... now th, is th is there a particular problem that women have with drugs whether it's illegal drugs or tranquillizers? Yes? [speaker009:] Do men, not perhaps drink alcohol more than women? [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker009:] And women use the tranquillizers as the alternative? I don't know! [speaker002:] Well I, no one 's saying much about alcohol! Yes? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] In a study which I did, er erm I find that [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker010:] erm... women were being prescribed tranquillizers about three times as often as men... and in fact, women go to see the G P three times as often as men. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] So, I think the two things go together that way. [speaker002:] Well let me ask you this question, would you say that using drugs has improved your life? Eighty one people here say they've taken drugs, and probably more than that, has using drugs, any kind of drug improved your life? Button one for yes, and button two for no.... And who knows what they're talking about, those fifty two people who said yes. [speaker001:] What about the contraceptive pill, that brings a lot of joy? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Di we []... In,in, indirectly there! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] A final question, do think society could do without drugs? Do you think, do you think we could ever do without drugs? Button one for yes, and button two for no.... And I think you're probably quite right you eighty three! Seventeen people have said yes, we could do, where are you you idealists? What are all the asthma sufferers, and arthritis sufferers, and various people going to do? Yes? I don't think we could be completely drug-free, I mean obviously medical conditions dictate that you have to take medi, medicines Mm. but, when it comes to taking other drugs, for a thrill, yes you could do without them, and one of the ways you can do that is by taking time out for yourself, whether you're a single parent or if you're a... you know, if you're a family, the important thing is finding time for yourself and not for your family or your dependants. I think that deserves a whole programme. How do women find time for themselves? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We'll talk about it another day. Thank you all very much indeed! Thank you for watching. See you next time. Goodbye.

[speaker001:] Is this on yet? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh.... [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Okay well, good morning. Erm... I have a... er an important administrative message which came from the Biology Department office, before we begin. Erm... concerns the following. David, David and James would you erm please report to the Head of Department's office straight away following this lecture.... [speaker002:] . [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] Okay well erm I hope that you'll remember from last week er what we er our discussion centred around the general way in which carriers and channels worked. And I'd like to extend that discussion this week concerning channels to look at the biological properties of channels, that is viewing th their activities in a physio in a physiological role.... And what I hope that I can do before the end of the lecture is convince you that channels pay play an important role, not just in conventional excitable tissues such as nerve and muscle,... but also in a wide variety of cells and membranes.... For those of you who erm... get a little er flustered at the at electrophysiological concepts, let me just erm begin the lecture by erm reminding you that when we talk about the current through a channel, all we're talking about is a flux. That is we can express the flux simply by dividing by the Faraday constant. That's all the current is, and the reason that we talk in terms of currents is because those are the because the major methods that are used to analyze channel activity are electrophysiological ones. But in principle, there's no reason why we cannot discuss the... flux through a channel, that is its activity, in terms of moles per second. And we saw that in the calculation that I gave you at the end of last week's lecture.... So... let me begin this discussion then of of channels by er pointing out the methods that have been used for studying channels, and for some of you who've done the er neurophysiology course this will er be revision but nevertheless it will be pertinent to today's discussion.... Okay so let's look at the methods for studying channels. Until around nineteen eighty... the methods generally involved impalement of cells with glass micro electrodes. So... er a a micro electrode was er fabricated and then put inside a cell and connected up with an amplifier.... And then the measurement of currents, electrical currents flowing across the membrane, could be analyzed using voltage clamp techniques.... This is known, for reasons that I'll point out in a second, as a macroscopic technique,... and the currents were usually identified through replacement of ions selectively,... and of course this can generally be done only in the external medium, because you don't have control over the internal medium.... Secondly by the response of the reversal potential of th of the current to a change in ion concentration. The reversal potential of that current should shift as the ion concentration shifts, if the current is carrying is being carried by tha by that ion. So that simply that statement simply comes from the Nernst equation. And in conjunction with that, generally it's conventional to er s selectively apply antagonists to block the currents not being studied. That is if you know one particular current is antagonized by a particular toxin for example, and you're not interested in that current, then you block it. Okay, what are the disadvantages of this technique? Well first of all, as I've just mentioned, you can't control the internal medium, unless you're dealing with er some very special er large types of cells, and therefore you can't address all the interesting questions which er concern intracellular regulation of channel currents.... Secondly, it's obviously impossible to look at endomembrane channels using this technique. You're you you're restricted to looking at plasma membrane channels and their properties. And thirdly, if you find that a current for a particular ion is stimulated, it's becomes difficult to describe what's happening at the level of transport, at the level of channel activity. And let me show you what I mean by that. If we're measuring the... m membrane current, which here I've called a macroscopic current because we're we're integrating over a whole area of membrane,... this, with respect with any given channel will comprise can be expressed in terms of the number of channels which are present, the probability that each one of those channels is open, the open state probability, and in terms of the unitary current... of each channel, that is the single channel current.... Thanks.... Okay so this macroscopic current can be expressed in terms of the simply in terms of these three parameters which relate to the single channel properties.... It therefore becomes imperative that if we see an activation of the macroscopic current, that we are able to express that activation in terms of a change in one or the other of those... so-called microscopic parameters. And it therefore becomes important to study the properties of single channels.... And... Meas in other words measure the currents through, and study their open state probabilities.... There are two important microscopic techniqu techniques which enable such studies to be undertaken.... And the first one I referred to fleetingly er last week,... and it's known as patch clamp, which most of you have come across before. And let me just remind you of the principles of this technique. The idea here is that you take a rather blunt er fire-polished glass pipette, and press it against a membrane. These these black blobs are supposed to be proteins and and I've tried to er illustrate the orientation of the protein by showing these er these supposedly er glyco er substi substituents on the outside of the cell. The carbohydrate constituents of the protein. Okay so th here's the pipette pressed against a cell, a high resistance seal is formed, electrically very resistant, between the membrane and the glass pipette, and you can then, if you're lucky, if you've got a s a single channel molecule under that er bit of pipette, record the currents flowing through that single protein molecule. The technique is very versatile because you can er then er go further and if you pull the pipette away from the from the cell... you can,... if y again if you're lucky, be left with the membrane... the patch of membrane firmly sealed to the glass pipette, and you can now record in so-called inside-out mode, in which the a er physiological inside of the membrane is exposed to the bathing medium, the the the in which the pipette is bathed.... Alternatively you can... record in so-called wholesale mode, that is by either sucking away this patch of membrane or by applying a whole er a large voltage pulse which essentially fries it,... so it burns it away, and you then gain electrical access to the interior of the cell. And having done that, you can then pull the pipette away, as shown here, and you're left with a bleb of membrane in which you're now recording in the so-called outside-out mode, which is the exact converse of the inside-out mode. Okay. So this then, all o a th these techniques when applied erm er... er as an ensemble then all allow you to look at the single channel currents, the currents flowing through any given channel, and as well as the effects of external and internal regulators.... However of course it's not readily applicable to most endomembranes, because most endomembranes are er not large enough most endomembrane compartments are lo not large enough to facilitate the application of this pipette.... Now in fact, before patch clamp came along in in a in around nineteen eighty there were there was another technique which was available for looking at single channel currents. It wasn't er very widely used, but it nevertheless er had some important applications, and this concer this technique is known as the planarlipid bilayer technique. And the idea of this technique is you take er a erm a chamber which is split into two compartments by a teflon partition,... shown here, you fill the two compartments with an aqueous solution,... [whispering] okay [], and you can then paint across a small hole in this Teflon partition a solution of phospholipids in a solvent, for example endecaine and when these phospholipids are painted across the er solv the er the small hole in the Teflon partition the solvent collects, here I've magnified it, collects around er the the edges of the hole, and leaves you with a what turns out to be a simple... bilayer, a phospholipid bilayer. So the membrane thins down, the solvent collects rounds the around the outside and er you're left with a pure bilayer of phospholipid. You can then take vesicles which you would have prepared erm biochemically, either through first purifying your protein or, more crudely, a er a s a partially purified membrane fraction, and fuse those with the artificial bilayer. And vesicles will fuse under the influence of an osmotic gradient. So you apply an osmo you in introduce the vesicles into into one chamber, apply an osmotic gradient, and those vesicles then fuse with the artificial bilayer, and again if you're lucky you see a single channel erm appear in the bilayer and you can then stop the fusion process to stop more er channels appearing.... Okay. And once you've got er the channel in there, you can then record its activity simply by putting micro electrodes into these two er compartments A and B here.... So then this technique enables you to look at single channel currents, and moreover, if you've got a partially er purified preparation of endomembranes it enable to to look at channels in endomembranes too. However a disadvantage of this technique in comparison with patch clamp is that you can't always guarantee the orientation of your channels, so that if you see some kind of rectifying characteristic in the bilayer er you have no way a prior of knowing whether that rectifying er characteristic is associated with an influx or an afflux from the cytoplasm. So that's a a partial er disadvantage that you can't establish the orientation. But it nevertheless enables you to look at er potentially at single channel currents from endomembranes.... Okay so having established then that you can look at the er er you can look at single channel currents,... let's look at what those erm er... currents can tell us. Erm on the overhead before last I I gave you a little equation which demonstrated the importance of measuring single channel currents and it ga and it had implicit in it an open state probability which reflects gating. So let's just look at gating for a second. And you'll remember that that the definition of gating is simply that channels switch between open and closed states, they gate open or closed.... Okay. What the results from these single channel techniques demonstrate, that is the patch clamp or the bilayer techniques, what these results demonstrate is that the factors enhancing macroscopic channel currents invariably act at the level of gating. That is either voltage or ligands, in the cases respectively of voltage activated channels or ligand activated channels,... both of those factors will act at the level of gating. In other words they increase the open state probability, they don't increase the number of channels, or very very rarely do they increase the number of channels, or the unitary current through each channel once it is open. They don't increase the single channel current once it's open. And just to remind you the open the open state probability can be defined as the time that the channel spends in its in the open state divided by the total time of the recording. So for example, here's a case of a calcium-activated potassium channel from a cultured rat muscle cell. And it's a patch clamp recording which has been done in an inside-out patch, that is with the physiological inside of the membrane facing the bathing medium, so we have experimental control over what the er physiological inside of the membrane is seeing here. And here is a recording then of the channel activity in the presence of ten to the minus eight molar calcium, that is ten nanomolar calcium. And you'll see er for this er little section of recording the channel opens very infrequently, in fact it only opens once, to a level of three picoamps. When the calcium is raised to five times ten to the minus seven molar, fifty nanomolar,... then what we see here Sorry, five hundred nanomolar. What we see here then is that the channel is markedly stimulated to open, its open state probability increases, but once it is open, the level the current level which it passes, the amount of the number ions flowing through per unit time, is not significantly different from that er case in which the calcium was lower. So that demonstrates, that's an example then, demonstrating the effect of an activator on a on the open state probability rather than on the single channel current.... Yeah? [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Where what's the same as the other one? [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Okay, the single channel current is the same in both cases. Right, it's three picoamps in each case. So you've activated the channel but you've activated it by increasing the frequency with which it resides in its open state, compared a to its closed state. Okay before we go on then and look at the roles of channels in biology, let's look at how channels are classified briefly. They're normally char er classified according to their gating properties rather th initially, rather than according to their ionic specificity. And this general approach has been supported by recent sequencing studies, so the the channels have been er the C D N A for the channels has been sequenced, and that indicates that the evolutionary relationships between channels have been based er have arisen er pri primarily on the basis of their gating properties rather than on the basis of their ionic selectivity. Within any major class characterized on the basis of its gating properties subclasses can be defined according to their ionic selectivity, but also according to their er pharmacological properties, and especially as we'll see in a second, according to their single channel conductance. [cough] And again just before we start this overview, let's just remind you what the single channel conductance of a channel is. Let's take this example which I showed you up here of the calcium-activated potassium channel. We can plot the current flowing through the channel, which is here shown on the ordinate, as a function of the holding voltage, which is shown on the abscissa here,... and when we do that we get a so-called current voltage relationship. We've got current on this axis, voltage on this axis, we've got equal in this case equal potassium on each side of the membrane, so the reversal potential, here shown as the zero current intercept, that is the point at which the channel's not passing any current, is zero millivolts, because we've got equal potassium on each side, and we can simply draw a line through those data points. Okay so we measure ei th the single channel current, up here it was er three picoamps, at a holding potential I guess of around plus twenty millivolts, we measure the slope of that line, and the slope of that line is the current divided by the voltage, and from Ohm's Law that's equal to conductance. And it's commonly written as gamma. So in this particular example we've got a single channel conductance of six picoamps, six times ten to the minus twelve amps, divided by forty millivolts, four times ten to the minus three volts, and just dividing one by the other we get a value of a hundred and fifty times ten to the minus twelve siemens which is the us unit of er conductance, note it has an I in it. In other words a hundred and fifty picosiemens. So that's what the single cha channel conductance is, and that's how it's measured. It's simply the slope of the er of the current voltage relationship.... Okay so for the rest of the lecture let's take a look at er what channels do.... And let's begin our discussion with a consideration of voltage gated channels,... and start with a well known example, that of sodium channels within this class. Sodium channels are uniquely found in animal cells, they're not present in plants or fungi or bacteria, and they're found on the plasma membrane, and their role is to carry out the depolarizing phase of an action potential.... They can be specifically blocked by several toxins, for example tetrodotoxin, commonly written T T X, which comes from a Japanese Puffer Fish. It's actually a er erm Japanese delicacy. You have to make sure you've removed the er tetrodotoxin gland before you start eating, and in fact each year there are deaths in Japan from er inexpert preparation of the Puffer Fish. Another one is er saxitoxin, commonly written S T X. And both of these compou pounds act from the outside to block sodium channels. Nu a number of other well known toxins, strychnine and er local anaesthetics which you encounter when you go to your dentists, procaine and lidocaine, both of those block sodium channels, so they inhibit the action potentials coming from sodium channels.... Calcium channels by contrast with er sodium channels are very widespread in animal and plant cell membranes.... Their role is invariably calcium uptake into the cell, that is the prevail when they open they will admit calcium into the cytosol, and this plays a crucial role during signal transduction processes, where elevation of cytosolic free calcium mediates in stimulus response coupling.... I'll sa I'll have a bit more to say about stimulus response coupling in a second. But for the moment let's just make the point that there are at least three classes of calcium channel, and they can coexist in the same membranes,... and can be distinguished by several different criteria, and this is an example of how you can use the criteria that I've discussed er previously er to to characterize different classes of channel. They can be dis distinguished on the basis of their single channel conductance with respect to barium, which they pass barium a al as well as they pass calcium. So in pi in terms of the number of picosiemens er single channel conductance for each of these channels, er each has a distinct single channel conductance of eight, twenty-five and fifteen picosiemens respectively. They can be distinguished in terms of their the voltage at which they exhibit peak activation of their inward current. [cough] Remember we're dealing with voltage activated channels here. So respectively here we have values of minus twenty, plus ten and plus twenty. They can be distinguished on the basis of their sensitivity to catecholamines, like adrenaline. So er one of the channel types is activated here, the other one is inhibited by catecholamine. They can be distinguished by their inhibitor sensitivity, specific er inhibitor dihydropyradines. Er only one of the channel classes is inhibited. And they can also be distinguished on the basis of their sensitivity to another toxin, known as omega conortoxin,er which more or less specifically inhibits just one class of channel.... They've been given er labels of T L and N where the T... er colloquially stands for tiny, L stands for large in terms of the single channel condu respective single channel conductances and er I'm not sure what the origin of N is. In the middle somewhere. Okay so those three discrete ch calcium channels can coexist within a single membrane. [128 1] At present their s their precise physiological roles, precisely why a single membrane needs three different classes of calcium channel, hasn't been erm def defined, but at least it serves to show you that er that a wide variety of channel types can er can exist.... Let's finish this discussion then of voltage gated channels by looking at potassium channels.... Er these are found in the plasma membranes again of animal and plant cells and their role, and we'll er see a lot more of this next week when we try and integrate er this discussion into into into er the er principles by which epithelium work, their role is principally in the stabilization of membrane potential.... And it's involved in the stabilization of membrane potential at relatively negative levels,... and the reason that this works is because the internal potassium concentration is invariably held higher than the external potassium concentration. So that if the potassium channels open and therefore dominate the membrane conductance, the membrane potential will approach the equilibrium potential for potassium, that is with all the pota with a lot of potassium channels open. And we can s see this typically in animal cells, the internal potassium is of the order of a hundred and fifty millimolar, the external potassium in plasma is of the order of five millimolar. So if we calculate the Nernst potential for potassium, the equilibrium potential for potassium in other words, simply by applying the Nernst equation, fifty- nine times the log of the external over the internal potassium concentration, we can calculate a value there of minus eighty-seven millivolts. So the equilibrium potential then in a typ for potassium in a typical animal cell is of the order of minus eighty-seven millivolts, which when the potassium channels are open serves to keep the membrane in a relatively hyperpolarized state.... The voltage gated potassium channels form a diverse class, as with the er voltage gated calcium channels. Er one... potassium channel which is commonly worked on is known as the delayed rectifier. And the reason for the importance of this ch ch channel is that it opens when axons depolarize. So when th axons depolarize, under the influence of the opening of sodium channels, the opening of the deray delayed rectifier then leads to a repolarizing phase which occurs precisely because the equilibrium potential for potassium is held relatively negative. So that's just summarized on this diagram here, which is shown er for a squid axon, and I've plotted here the equilibrium potential for sodium, which is relatively positive, here at mi at plus fifty millivolts, and the equilibrium potential for potassium which is held relatively negative. And at this point the axon is stimulated, a depolarization occurs which is associated with the opening of sodium channels, which then close. And the repolarization is associated here with the opening of potassium channels. So we can express then the overall form of the action potential in terms of the differential activity, first of sodium channels and then of potassium ac channels. And of course the the rationale for its label of delayed rectifier is now apparent, it shows some delay before it's open before it opens. As indeed it has to if the action potential is to occur. An example of a potassium channel inhibitor is tetraethylammonium. There are no very highly specific organic inhibitors for potassium channels. Evolution seems to have er devised a large number of specific inhibitors for sodium channels but not for potassium channels. Now if you look at that er figure you'll see that er the sodium channels during the action potential of course are closing, and that's allowing er partially allowing the repolarizing phase to occur. And that phenomenon, is known as inactivation, and it's a property shown by most by the vast majority of voltage gated channels. What inactivation is, is it means in the presence of a continuing depolarizing stimulus, the channels will close, they switch off. So here's an example. The depolarizing stimulus is given here, moving the membrane potential from minus seventy-five to minus fifteen millivolts, so there's the there's the command pulse. And we're now measuring the sodium current flowing through the membrane, here given in terms of nanoamps. And it's an inward current so by convention it's shown as as downward and negative. So in the presence of a sustained stimulus, here, which is lasting around two milliseconds, the channels are switching off with a time constant of what around half a millisecond. Furthermore, if you give a second pulse, a short period after the first pulse, you fail to elicit a large sodium current. So the second pulse then, is mu it evokes a much weaker current than the first pulse did. And that's also because the channels have inactivated. Now both of these responses... distinguish inactivation from gating. We're not simply talking about opening and closing in response to a stimulus then, this first stimulus has left the channels in a state in which they're relatively unable to gate open. So we have two phenomena here, one of which is gating, the opening and closing in a simple on a simple er in simple response to a stimulus, but also we have a phenomenon of inactivation, in which the channel is left in a state where it's unable to respond. And of course the function of inactivation is to allow the membrane potential to recover after the channel's open. You can't allow membranes to exist permanently in a depolarized state. We've got it's in other words it's a sort of negative feedback. So to summarize that in terms of a of of a kinetic diagram, we can basically write that channels exist in closed and open states. Typically the closed state can comprises c com more than one type of closed state can be kinetically distinguished but let's not worry about that right now. Er we can we've at least distinguished that channels can exist between closed and open states, and the transition between the closed and open states is known as gating. But in addition once they're open they can also inactivate to the extent that they're no longer respon responsive to the stimulus that opens them, to the voltage stimulus which opens them. So we can distinguish then a third state in w which we can call an inactivated state and which will leave the channel closed, but also unable to respond as it would be able to do if it resided in a simple closed in a simple closed state which were responsive to gating. So this summarizes then the two processes of gating, here, and inactivation, here. As I alluded to earlier on, voltage gated channels have been cloned and sequenced and they show first of all homology between all three classes, sodium, er calcium and potassium. And you can also determine from the sequence that the common evolutionary origin er was er centred around potassium channels. Potassium channels formed the probably formed the evolutionary prototypes for all of the for the calcium and sodium channels which came later on.... Okay that's all I wanted to say about voltage gated channels then, let's erm turn our attention to so-called ligand gated channels which form rather a discrete class. Ligand gated channels are erm specific to er excitable tissues, their found in synapses, neuromuscular junctions, and of they're involved in intercellular communication with the communication being achieved by neurotransmitters. So the neurotransmitters then bind to receptors which are which are the same as the channels, the channel is both the receptor, the ligan binder, and er and an ion channel, and it's located at the postsynaptic membrane or at the surface of the muss muscle fibre if we're dealing with a neuromuscular junction. So it's on the on the down side of the of the s of the signal. In general, this is a general point, the ionic selectivity of such channels is much less than for voltage gated channels. It's they show a rather a broad specificity and can generally are generally rather non-selective either for cations or for anions. So we can't we don't usually talk about ligand gated channels being sodium channels, they'll normally pass more than one type of cation fairly non-selectively, they don't really mind. Let's just consider a few important examples, probably the most famous of which is the acetylcholine receptor. Known as the also known as the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor er cos it will respond to nicotine. It's found at the junction between motor neurones and skeletal muscle. It is gated open when it binds to molecules of acetylcholine, and in accord with what I've just said about its selectivity, it's a non-selective cation channel. Its function its physiological function is simply to depolarize the membrane when it binds acetylcholine. So physiologically what happens is that the principal flux through the channel is that of sodium, and that's simply, although although the er channel is non-selective it's simply because the sodium is at high activity outside, low activity inside and potassium is reasonably close to equilibrium. This then, this depolarization then allows the opening of voltage gated calcium channels, the calcium inside rises and contraction occurs. Muscle contraction. So the aim when th when the acetylcholine binds is to depolarize the membrane facili which facilitates the rise in internal calcium and that leads to muscle contraction. The channel itself is a complicated one, it comprises five subunits, in the stoichiometry alpha two, beta, gamma, and delta. They've all been sequenced. They are all homologous and membrane spanning. So you need these these five different subunits to er to form the acetylcholine receptor and channel. The channels are antagonized by a compound known as alphabungarotoxin which is obtained from sna snake velom, venom. Two er other channels that I'd like to consider which have rather different functions are both er chloride channels. One is known as the G A B A, A receptor, where G A B A is standing for gamma amino butyric acid, this is the G A B A receptor. It's found in brain and the equilibrium potential for chloride is around minus ninety milliVolts, that is more negative than the normal membrane potential which is which would be of the order of minus sixty minus seventy. So when this channel opens then, the membrane potential will tend to move towards the equilibrium potential for chloride, in other words the membrane will tend to hyperpolarize, when these channels are open. So opening of these channels will hyperpolarize the membrane, and as a result of that opening what we see is an inhibition of action potentials. The membrane's maintained in a in a hyperpolarized state and that inhibits action potentials, and that enables coordination of pathways which either fire or don't fire in response to a depolarizing stimulus. So these channels sh show significant although not er sig al although not extensive sequence homology with the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor which enables you to place them in the same class of being er a ligand er binding channel. Had similar evolutionary origins. It binds barbiturates. Similarly the glycine receptor is also an inhibitory chloride channel, also found in brain and closely related to the G A B A, A receptor. So both G A B A and glycine are er physiological neurotransmitters er and it has a s the glycine receptor have a has a similar function of hyperpolarizing the membrane when open, inhibits action potential. It's er like sodium channels, inhibited by strychnine. Okay finally, a third m major er class of ion channel i which has been extensively worked on over the last few years, since the advent of patch clamping er has been second messenger gated channels, so-called second messenger gated channels. Let's just remind you what second messengers are, because they ply play a vital role in cellular homeostasis. They are second messengers are intracellular compounds, for example cyclic A M P, or ions, for example calcium, and what they do is they couple stimuli to responses, they couple a specific stimulus, each one a specific stimulus to a specific cellular response. So in other words we can write the general scheme, a stimulus leads to an increase in the se level of the second messenger, and that increase in the level of the second messenger leads to a response. Second messenger gated channels are very widely distributed, they're certainly not limited to excitable tissues. One very extensive class is er is a calcium activated potassium channel, where calcium's now activating from the inside as we've already seen in that example I showed you early on. Commonly written as a k brackets C A channel. They are found at the plasma membrane, they have a for a for a channels, a very large single channel conductance of the order of fifty to two hundred picosiemens. They are generally inhibited by a compound known as apiamin which is the main ingredient in bee venom. And they have rather distinct roles depending on where they're found. One role is as a link between internal calcium intracellular calcium and the membrane potential. And one very well worked on example here concerns that of er pancreatic beta cells which secrete insulin in response to glucose. These are the er these are the cells which will raise the insulin in your blood in response to elevated blood glucose. And the way in which er these calcium activated K channels pla play a role in this response is that when these beta cells see glucose, they depolarize, and this depolarization leads to the opening of voltage dependent voltage gated calcium channels. The opening of those channels leads to an elevation of intracellular free calcium and that elevation of intracellular free calcium is required it's the signal the stimulus for insulin secretion. So the elevation of calcium will secrete insulin. Now if the stimulus is not sustained, if the if the glucose stimulus is not sustained, the calcium load can be cleared, the elevated free calcium inside the cell can be cleared for example by a calcium A T P ase, since the calcium channels were shut. Okay so if the stimulus isn't there the membrane doesn't depolarize any more, the calcium channels shut and the calcium load gets cleared from the cytosol by a calcium A T P ase. However if the glucose is maintained high, in other words if the stimulus is sustained, what we see is a succession of depolarizing spikes, and the reason we see it is because this elevation of free calcium, not only leads to a insulin secretion, it also leads to the opening of calcium activated K channels which tend to hyperpolarize the membrane. Okay the so as I said earlier opening K channels will hyperpolarize the membrane. So the membrane then hyperpolarizes, but the stimulus is still present, and that's tending to lead to a depolarization, so we get then this circle of membrane depolarization followed by hyperpolarization, but it's the calcium activated K channels which are tending to restore the membrane potential to negative values. A second function which I don't want to dwell on now because I'm gonna deal with it in a lot more detail next week, is o o this is a second function of calcium activated K channels, is to release potassium from epith epithelial cells during fluid and electrolyte secretion. Er for example secretagolgs such as acetylcholin acetylcholine lead to an elevation of intracellular calcium as we've just seen, and that can then lead to K release potassium release through calcium activated K channels. But we'll deal with that phenomenon in a lot more detail next week in the context of epithelial cells. And finally just before we leave second messenger gated channels, I'd like to consider two more which have been worked on er extensively and one of which we'll er deal with er next week. The one we'll deal with next week is the case of cyclic A M P activated chloride channels, these are found in secretory epithelia. Betaadrenergic agonists elevate the er stimulate chloride secretion into the lumen, and the way they do this is they raise cyclic A M P levels obviously and activate the chloride channels. And we'll see how the chlor the opening of chloride channels leads to secretion, next week. Importantly the chloride channels are not directly activated by the elevation of cyclic A M P, what they are activated by a is by a protein kinase A meded phos mediated phosphorylation. So it's the cyclic A M P then which activates the protein kinase A and that phosphorylates the channel to activate it. The last class of erm second messenger activated channels that I'd like to deal with is are those calcium channels which are found in the in endomembranes, especially in the endoplasmic reticulum which are gated open by a compound known as inositol one four five trisphosphate.... Some agonists, for example acetylcholine, in pancreatic islets activate a specific phospholipase in the plasma membrane. This is a phospholipase C and what the phospholipase C does, when it's activated by the agonist, is it splits a membrane phospholipid phosphotadylinositol four five bisphosphate into two components, a water soluble component inositol and a lipidic component the lipidic residue diacylglycerol. The water soluble component, the I P three, the product of this, diffuses to the endoplasmic reticulum where it gates open a calcium channel. So having diffused to the endoplasmic reticulum it can gate open the calcium channel, and this leads to an elevation of internal calcium, not from the external medium now, but from internal stores. The channel is specifically inhibited by heparin albeit not physiologically, heparin's not a physiological ihibit inhibitor of this channel, it's not found inside cells, but it can be ex experimentally potently inhibited by heparin. Curiously the channel when it's cloned and sequenced, exhibits around fifty percent homology with a calcium channel which is found not in the endoplasmic reticulum but in the sarcoplasmic reticulum of muscle cells. And it's this sarcoplasmic calcium sarcoplasmic reticulum calcium channel which mediates calcium release for muscle contraction. Physiologically this channel though, rather than being activated by inositol one four five trisphosphate this channel is probably primarily activated by voltage by in other words by membrane depolarization. And one can show that it has a discrete inhibitor specificity compared with the inositol trisphosphate gated calcium channel in that this one is specifically inhibited by a plant alkaloid known as rhinadin.... Okay let me just summarize what we've erm covered today then.... We began by considering that channels can be studied by conventional or macroscopic techniques, or alternatively by so-called microscopic methods, which enable us to look at single channel currents. And the two microscopic methods that we discussed were patch clamp and planarlipid bilayers. We decided that the the otential the action potential of course are on Editor A look at control, we can look at single channel currents. We looked at channel activation, either by voltage or by ligands, and decided that activation is almost invariably achieved by effects on the gating mechanism. Rather than on the single channel current or the number of channels. So that lead to an increase in the open state probability. We then went on to look at several classes of er ion channels, voltage gated channels which form a superfamily of sodium and calcium and potassium channels. And those voltage gated channels predominate predominate in excitable tissues. We decided that most voltage gated channels exhibit a phenomenon known as inactivation. That is they switch off spontaneously even in the presence of the stimulus. We went on to look at ligand gated channels, and in particular three different classes, acetylcholine gated, glycine gated, G A B A gated. And decided that these channels occur predominantly at post-synaptic or on the muscle surface.

[Albert:] A word gets around the famine is over and after the tragic experience of loosing her family, her three men in her life, her husband and her sons, nobody starts to consider the situation again, she's alone now in a foreign, a strange land, surely the only sensible thing for her to do would be to return to her own people in Bethlehem, they say news comes through that they've been a succession of good harvest, well of course there was gonna be good harvest, god hadn't forsaken his people, although they had sinned, although they had done what was wrong, he hadn't forsaken them, gods not in the business for forsaken people, he's long suffering, he is faithful, he keeps his covenant from one generation to another... that he hadn't forgotten the people in Bethlehem and he had sent them through and he had provided good harvests... those who had remained in Bethlehem during the famine, they'd only suffered for a short time, perhaps enough time to bring them to their senses, to bring them back to god, now the suffering was forgotten as they revelled in a plentiful supplying in abundant harvests... Naomi on the other hand she knows want now, she's suffering bereavement, she's suffering poverty, she's suffering remorse, there's nothing for her in Noad, there's no rest, no joy, no provision, nothing that could meet her needs... what a pity she had wasted there those ten wasted those ten years, ten long wasted years in her life... now she comes to a decision whatever the cost and there is a cost, she's gonna have to eat humble pie, how are they gonna receive her when she goes back... but she comes to that decision that no matter what it costs her, she will go back to the place that was chosen for her by god, her inheritance of him... It always to our cost when we under value our inheritance, do you remember the story of Jacob and Aesop and how Aesop despised his birth right, the inheritance that was his, and Illuminarc and Naomi had done the same, and you and I can do it so easily, leaving, forgetting, not entering in to the inheritance that is ours in Christ, we do it to our own costs, and so she goes through that I'm gonna go back, I'm gonna take up my inheritance, I'm going back home. You know sometimes the way forward is backward, there are no short cuts with god, if he's leading along a certain path and were disobedient, there's no way we can opt out of it and join the trail further along, he doesn't allow it, its back to where we left it, that's were we've gotta get back to, we can't skip an experience, we can't miss any thing out, we've got to go back to where we start, where we were when we left the trail... and Naomi has to do just that to go back to Bethlehem, that's the way forward for her, and you see because we all, we always find this if we are really children of god, then we can never ever be satisfied away from the will of god, there's nothing else that meets our need, its god will or nothing, you know, when we know frustration in our lives, when we know sort of the, these annoyances and, and, and, and er sense of frustration there, its not because god is leaving us that way its invariably cos we have actually gone out of gods will because he's will is not frustrated, its satisfying, can I just, it will only really be headings this morning, just leave us with three brief headings in this little incident that we'll read or we, we won't read the whole passage but its, er in the remainder of the, or more or less the whole of the remainder of the first chapter... tha that the cost was involved and then the choices that were made and then the commitment, the cost that was involved Naomi had to pay something, you see before she could return to Naomi she had to con, before Naomi sorry could return er to, to Bethlehem, she had to acknowledge she'd done wrong, she had failed, she had sinned, she had to acknowledge she had made a mistake... now... in fairness to Naomi she did it and she excepted her responsibility, she didn't try and shift the blame on to she didn't say well er my husband brought me here because it was a decision that she had parted, it was a choice she had made as well and so she, she excepts her responsibility, she excepts her blame and she goes to return so there was, there was this sense of confession and, and confession can be costly when we've got to admit that I was wrong, I did wrong, I was mistaken, I went the wrong way that could be a costly mistake and, and, and er costly experience for us to go through, but surely the, the true sign of repent is that we do acknowledge our sin, we acknowledge our failure, that we acknowledge what it means to god, we can't shift that blame onto somebody else... then also consider not just the cost that Naomi had to pay in going back, but also there was a cost for Auper and for Ruth as well as Moabias there would be little joy for them in Israel, they were foreigners, they were strangers, there wouldn't be much hope for happiness for them, there would be very little likeliness for them ever getting married in or remarrying er in, in Israel, they wouldn't be able to worship there own god, they'd be taken from one culture to another, there'd be taken from one language to another, what was it gonna be like for them, alright, perhaps whilst they were living with Naomi perhaps she could pull a few strings for them, but what happens when she goes and they are left by themselves... and yet it would appear that with... Naomi making her decision to return that they too these two daughters in law they decided to go to Bethlehem with her and it tells us that they set out together... but... perhaps they hadn't thought it really through... because their not totally committed to us and as they come towards the frontier and their gonna pass into in, back into Judah with their few miserable possessions that they've gathered together, Naomi again considers the consequences facing these two young women, Auper and Ruth, they continued with her, as she pleads with them to go back home, Judah is no place for a foreigner, Judah is no place for somebody to come unless they are part of gods people, and I'm reminded of again of what it tells me in, in the book of acts, that in the early church, that people were actually frightened, frightened to join with the disciples, they were frightened to join the church, there was no room for, for stragglers, there was no room for hangers on, there was no room for those who went just because they thought it was gonna be the next, the in thing to do, but folk were actually frightened of joining because they knew they had to put their lives right, they knew they had to live holy lives, they knew that god had to be lord and master in their lives and unless they were willing to do that and be committed to him they were actually frightened of joining and one of the great weaknesses of the church today is that it becomes and it can becoming our thinking and nothing more than just something we join, something we belong to, something we go along to er as like a club, like an association, but that's not the picture we see it in the New Testament, it is a very exclusive body, it is a very exclusive grouping, a grouping of those who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ and that's why not every body is a member of the local church, not every body who goes to church on a Sunday is a member of a church to Jesus Christ... now they know if they are, but other people may not know, they know and the lord knows, I know if I belong to him and he knows if I belong to him... other people may not, I can put on the act, I can look as though I'm playing the part, I can go through the routine, I can, I can, I can fool every body, but he knows and I know, and he knows and you know and so Jesus said not every body who says lord, lord on that day will I acknowledge and recognize... and so for Ruth and Nao er yes Ruth and Auper it was gonna be different of course for them as foreigners in Judah especially when Naomi goes... and she pleads with them go back home, Judah is not place for Moabias, she knew what it had been like to be a foreigner, she knew what it had been like to be an alien land in an alien culture in a different religion with a different language she had known the bitterness of it all, she pleads with them go back home... she prayers for them the lord bless you, the lord you know be gracious to you and so on, but they refused... and again Naomi puts it to them, to please go back and Auper reconsiders and she takes the counsel and advice of her mother in law... but no so Ruth and Naomi turns and says look your sister in law's gone back, she's gone home, you go as well, you can't do it, its a too greater price for you to pay, its a choice you mustn't make, a decision you mustn't make, your gonna have poverty, your gonna have loneliness, your gonna have hardship.... I'm sure that Ruth searches her heart, she, she may of made her decision lightly way back to go with Ruth er, to go with Naomi but not now, its a heart searching decision she makes, the choice before her, do I go back or do I go, do I go on, do I go back to Moah with its familiarity with all the things I am aware of or do I go on into the unknown with my mother in law and with her god... Auper makes a choice and she goes back and Ruth had, Ruth says no and she makes the commitment and she says there, in verse sixteen, do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you, for where you go I will go and where you lodge, I will lodge, your people should be my people and your god my god and its those last few words that makes all the difference, your god will be my god, I will not be a stranger there, I will not be an alien there, I will be part of your people, and the only way she could be part of Naomi's people was for Naomi's god to be her god, that was the thing that kept, that was, that was the common denominated should all of Naomi's people, because they all belonged to and Ruth says I commit myself to him, he will now be my god, and therefore your people will be my people, your home will be my home, your destiny will be my destiny... the way is clear, she makes that greatest decision of her life, a decision that will affect the whole of her life... but its not as say a life decision is a commitment now, we, we, we are always confronted, day after day we are confronted to make decisions, some of you make decisions and were not too committed about them, and if things alter they will change our minds, not just a ladies prerogative to change her mind, men do it as well and things happen and we think oh no well, I won't go through with that I'll change my mind before its too late, but here Ruth she is not just making a decision, she is making a total commitment, a commitment that is worth time of the whole of her life, to promised to be loyal to de to Naomi and her deceased husband, she promises loyalty to Naomi's race and the people of god, but above all she acknowledge's Naomi's god and her willingness to follow him to the end, you know this, how she finishes of this commitment... where you die I will die its to the end... its to the end of my life, I will not walk out of it and even after you've gone mother in law, even after you are dead I am still committed to that decision, this decision I am making today where you die I will die, there I will be buried, and here she sorts of puts this solemn vow to this commitment, thus may the lord to do me and worse if any thing but death parts you and me. Nao Naomi realizes there's no point talking about it now, the dye has been cast the decision has been made, the commitment has been entered into, whatever the cost she was going gods way, there was nothing more to be said about it... we find that a de a decision made before god and we all make those decisions, means nothing at all unless were determined to carry it through, whatever the cost may be, three women here make their decisions before god, they make their choices, Naomi she chooses to return to Judah once again and enjoy the inheritance god has given her, Auper she chooses to return to her own country and her own god, as far as were concerned that's the end of the story, but Ruth she chooses, she expresses her faith in the one true god, she turns her back on the old ways and decides to follow gods way, no matter what the cost, she would of said with Joshua, but as for me and my husband were gonna serve god, whatever the cost, I dunno what'll be and she didn't know what she was letting herself in for, and the, I counted it, although I don't know what it is, I counted that cost, I'm willing to pay it and Jesus said that that is the acid test of disciples, said to count the cost and weigh it up and Ruth had done that, then to make their decision... and because if we make a decision without counting the cost, without weighing it all up, like Auper you'll go back, it won't last, there is that choice for every one of us day by day, who will we serve, not to be like Joshua, its for us, never for any body else, I will serve the lord because and this is the reason for it, not because you've done nice things for me, I will be your saviour because he is god, that's the reason for our serving god, not because he blesses us because he blesses people who don't serve him, blessing is not exclusive to gods people, blessing, god blesses across the board, god is generous he's gracious, he causes the rain and the sun to shine on the just and on the unjust, blessing is not the ground for serving god, but because he is god that's sufficient reason for our committing ourselves to him. Let's just sing shall we as we close, whilst were singing were gonna take up our morning offering, its number one ninety seven, one hundred and ninety seven... an element of commitment in this song, one nine seven, well stand to sing.

[Albert Gunter:] [cough]... To be absolutely, strictly theological... in fact, William Booth made a little mistake in the song... because God will never ever send another pentecost. It was a once off thing. And, in our English language we actually make this mistake... when we talk about birthdays... French, in some ways are for more sensible with language, and you only ever have one birthday, the rest of them are anniversaries of your birthday. And God has only ever, and only ever will send one pentecost, and that took place on the day of pentecost, the birthday, the birth of the church. There are, as we've been reminded, we celebrate that again today, an anniversary. I've gotta confess, I don't like th the expression Whitsun so much, I prefer, er the expression, what it really is, it is pentecost. And literally it means just fifty. That what it means, and it was fifty days se se se... seven weeks, after the death and resurrection of Jesus... and the disciples had been told to wait in an upper room until the Holy Spirit would descend upon them, and you've had that record read to you from acts chapter two of just what took place on that day, that birth day of the church of Jesus Christ. Course, it didn't end there. Birthdays are beginnings not endings. And, the early church grew from there. And that experience that took place on that initial day that is the birthday of the church was not just a one off thing, but as others came into the church they experienced not another pentecost, but if you like, their own pentecost. And... we're gonna look at a passage in just a few moments in, it's in the eighth chapter of acts... where a group of people there, they were Samaritans... how they came in to experience their pentecost. But you know, for every one of us as Christians, Jesus Christ lives in us by the Holy Spirit, by his spirit. Jesus Christ, when he er, went back to heaven he went back as a... fe, as a glorified, but as a physical being. That is why, the physical resurrection of Jesus is so important. There is a man in the glory. There is a man seated on the right hand of God the Father, there interceding for you and for me. It's not his spirit that's doing it, it is the same person that the disciples spoke to when they walked the streets of Palestine, it is the same person that went around healing the sick, it is the same person that was born in the, in the manger at Bethlehem, he is now, after having died, been raised again by the power of the trying God had, he is now ascended back into heaven, in glorified form, and he is there interceding, representing you and me before his father there in heaven. He is there in that local situation. And just the same as when Jesus was here on earth he was in one place, he he confined himself to a body. And he is there now in the glory, but yet we say, we invite Jesus into our heart, and he walks, and we sing the song from the, he walks and he talks, how is it that this happens if Jesus is there in heaven? Well it happens, and it's made possible because he does it by his spirit. Now there aren't two spirits, there's not the spirit of Christ, and the Holy spirit. There's not a multitude of spirits. God is a spirit! And he is the mystery of the trinity. God the Father, who is also spirit. God the son, who is also spirit. And God the Holy Spirit. And so, Jesus Christ indwells your life as a Christian, and he indwells my life as a Christian by his spirit, by the Holy Spirit. We are born again by the spirit of God. We become Christians through the work of the Holy Spirit. But the New Testament teaches us, that apart from that new birth by the spirit, and that indwelling of Jesus Christ in our lives by the spirit, there is a subsequent experience that is called receiving or being baptized as a Holy Spirit. We're gonna look at this little passage in in acts eight, which shows to us that these Samaritan chri, they were saved! They had accepted Jesus Christ as their, as their saviour, they had been born again. They were Christians. They had been baptized. And yet, there was something missing in their experience. Let me read a few verses, reading first of all from verse twelve... it says, [reading bible] that when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized men and women alike. And even Simon himself believed. And after being baptized he continued on with Philip, as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, and he was constantly amazed! This fellow Simon, you read about him in a few verses earlier, he was a, he was a magician, a so, er a sorcerer, he was the, the wi the witch doctor if you like, if he was in i i in an African situation, there he was, he was the medicine man of the town, of the area... and he too believed and was converted, he was baptized, and he was amazed at the miracles that he'd seen being performed... by Philip through the power of God. He was a man who was used to the supernatural... but he was amazed at the things that he saw! And it says, now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem heard that Somaria had received the word of God they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For he had not yet fallen on upon any of them. They had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They they began laying their hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them much money, saying, give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, may your silver perish with you because you thought you could obtain the gift of God without mo, with money! You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore, repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible the intention of your heart may be forgiven you ... for I see that you are in the gaol of bitterness and in the bondage of inequity. Simon answered and said, pray to the Lord for me yourselves to that nothing of what you have said may come upon me. Philip, who was an evangelist, he had gone down to Somaria, in fact, the Holy Spirit had taken him there. If you read a few er, verses, a chapter or so earlier on, he had been speaking to one man to a er er... a high official from Ethiopia, and he had been sharing with him from Isaiah chapter fifty three, the message of Jesus Christ. This Ethiopian, he had come to Jerusalem, he was a, he was a a,go, a Godly man, he was seeking after the things of God, and he had come to Jerusalem on a pilgrimage to worship God, and he was returning home, and he had got hold of the scroll that had Isaiah fifty three in it, and he was reading it, and Philip goes up to the man in the chariot, he said, do you understand what you're reading? The man says, how can I except somebody explain to me? And Philip, it says there, he says and er er,, he preached unto him Jesus... showing him that Isaiah fifty three referred to Jesus Christ. And the man was er, accepted Christ as his saviour and they went down and Philip baptized in there, in in in the river. And, as they come out of the water the fa, the bible says the spirit takes Philip away and... he goes down now to to so to Somaria... and and he starts preaching there in Somaria... a and there's this tremendous... result! He sees miracles taking place! Many folk coming to know Jesus Christ the saviour. It says, there was great joy in all the city! And yet, there was still something missing. And word gets back... to apostles in Jerusalem. They had heard about the blessing there, they had heard about the healing, the deliverance, the joy, yet nobody had received the Holy Spirit. They'd been baptized in water as we've already read, and yet nobody had received the Holy Spirit. Now, as we've said earlier on the Holy Spirit works in the new birth... and it is through the work of the Holy Spirit that we come to know God. That we are born again. That we become Christians.... Jesus, shortly before he left his disciples he tells them, it's in Mark chapter sixteen, er yes, Mark chapter sixteen, in verse seventeen, it says, [reading bible] these signs will accompany those who have believed in my name. They will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues. We are born again of God's Holy Spirit []. This is something that God does in in the verses earlier, Jesus says go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved! It's the work of God's spirit. The result of the preaching of the gospel, men and women respond and are born again. They become followers of Jesus.... So the Holy Spirit works, in our lives to bring us to Christ, to bring us to new birth. To bring us to become Christians. Then there is this subsequent experience which follows... receiving or being filled with the Holy Spirit. Peter tells in his first apistle in chapter one, in verse twenty three, for you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is through the living and abiding word of God. So the Holy Spirit is at work. And God's word is used in bringing us to new birth, in bringing us, er to faith in Jesus Christ.... And this is what happened here in Somaria. In verse fourteen it says, [reading bible] when the apostles in Jerusalem that Somaria had received the word of God []... and we cannot become Christians without God's word. It is his word... that makes us aware of our condition. That we are sinners. It is his word that makes us aware that Jesus Christ came and died for us, that God loves us. How shall they hear, the bible says, without a preacher? How will they, how will folk hear? How will they come to faith without the word of God? Faith comes by hearing... and hearing the word of God.... So when they hear this, the apostles back in... Jerusalem, they send Peter and John down to Somaria for this special purpose... that they might pray for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Now why, why couldn't Philip have prayed for the people? He had brought them to faith in Jesus Christ. He had preached the gospel. God had, through him, performed miracles! Amazing miracles and signs and wonders! Why couldn't Philip pray for them? Well, of course, there's a sense in which he could easily have prayed for them, but at that moment, in that particular place, that was not God's purpose. And this is sometimes where we get a little bit, you know, hung up,a a and and when we tend to make a little bit, we make mistakes a lot. We have got to allow God to do his work in his way and in his time. And in God's plan at this particular moment... i this was not Philip's function, it wasn't his job. He had fulfilled, he had discharged his mission, he had preached the gospel... he had seen men and women coming to Jesus Christ, he had seen the mi mi miracles happening... he had baptized those who have put faith in Jesus, and now, you see, it's not a one man show, there was, there was a leadersh, there was a team involved here. The apostles come down. Not because Philip was unable to do it, not because he was incapable of doing it, but here is God's purpose, of ma, of people working together in bringing about his will and his purposes. We've all, we've gotta remember this, that every one of us, we have a place in God's will and plan... and whilst we are in that place... everything is [LAUGHTER] good []... well there's, there's still problems of course, there are still difficulties, there are still heartaches, but things are working right. The machinery is working correctly. But once we try to operate outside of that place, and we try to do somebody else's job, we try to fulfil somebody else's function, then we are in trouble! Then the thing is out of gear. Then the gears start crashing. There's not that smooth synchronized... er... way of going on which God purposes, and in, and intends. You see God is th,i i is a God of order... he's not a God of disorder, it's not a case of anybody doing what they like, he works according to his pattern. And who are you and I to tell God what his purpose is, and his pattern's gonna be? He is sovereign... and he will work according to his will. And he's used Philip... and now he i,i i in his purpose he brings down Peter a a and John... to to, to have their part i in his will and his purpose at this time. We do not all have the same ministries. We do not all have the same function within the body of Christ. And later on the apostle Paul, he elaborates on this, and he uses the picture of an ordinary body, and he says every member's not the same. We're not a, our our physical body's not made up of a multitude of hands... or a multitude of feet... there are feet, and the feet has one function, the hand has another. We don't hear with our hands! We hear with our ears! And every part of that body has a function. And the body is working well and fine when every part is doing their function. Now, at a pinch, I might be able to walk a step or two on my hands with my feet in the air, believe me, it's not a pretty sight! And I won't get very far. And even if I, how far I get it won't be quick... because, God didn't give me hands to walk on, he gave me feet to walk on. And so, the body works better when each part is doing it's particular function. And this isn't just true of course, of our physical body, it's true of his body, the church. And oh, when we do something else, and my hands say to my feet,ha hang on, you can walk as well as they can, let's try it. They can't! And there's cra, there's chaos! There's trouble! And so it is within the body. When I say, I can do it as well as he can do it, I can do that! God says no, hang on, you're supposed to be doing this. And it's only as we fulfil our function with the body. That's why it's so important to kno, for everyone of us, to know what our ministries are. That we might be, not frustrated, you know, frustration is because, I'm not able to do what I should be doing. And oh, the frustration that can build up in our lives as Christians because we are not where we should be or doing what God purposes for us! We do not then all have the same ministries. And so, Peter, and John, they come down to Somaria. And when Simon, they they laid their hands on the folk and God in his graciousness pours out his spirit and they receive the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money saying, give this authority to me as well so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. Simon was not trying to buy the Holy Spirit... but rather the ability to impart the Holy Spirit. There's a sense in which... it might sound rather strange, I think Simon was... there was something in this guy that is attractive I think. He he's already opened hi up his heart to the Lord, there's a lot that he's gotta learn, there's a lot he's gotta let go of, there's a lot of his old life still there, but isn't that true of every one us? It doesn't all disappear over night. We grow in grace, we grow as we learn what God teaches us. And we're all at different stages in our pilgrimage. And so, Simon he... he wants what the apostles have got. If only I could... he he looks back on his life and he knows the power that he has experienced. He knows the authority that he's had in that community, he has seen supernatural things happening in his life and through him, albeit, they were not of God, but has been involved in supernatural things. And he sees something now that to him is mind blowing! He's never seen anything like this before! He has already been constantly amazed at what has taken place through Philip! And now, with Peter and John, this is just the end as far as he's concerned. He said, oh if only I had that power! If only if I had that ability! Can I acquire it? Can I have it? And he offers them money. He doesn't realize that you can't buy it. He doesn't realize that it's not up for sale. But oh, if I might have this ability to impart the Holy Spirit! But he's made this carbon thing you see, it wasn't for the... the apostles couldn't it! Peter and John couldn't do it! In the New Testament there are four different words that are used to refer to a gift... and the one used here means an endowment, and an endowment comes, not because of me, but it becomes because of the grace of the giver. I don't merit it. I don't, I haven't worked for it. I've done nothing worthy of receiving it. It is the grace of the giver! And the Holy Spirit, God's gracious gift to us. Just like salvation, is not because we merit it. We don't merit it! We haven't worked for it! We can't acquire it by any other means other than receiving the gift as God the gracious giver makes it available. Wanna say a bit more about that a little later on. Now, these er, Samaritans, they received the Holy Spirit, now... how do we know that the Samaritans actually spoke in tongues? Because it doesn't tell you that here. It doesn't say so. But it, certainly as you read through the New Testament, the acts of the apostles, it certainly is the norm for those who received the Holy Spirit, that they spoke in other tongues. And we've already read that verse from Mark's gospel, where it says quite, Jesus himself says quite clearly that those, these signs will accompany those who believe in my, they will speak with new, with new tongues. And wherever you read of this experience happening, again, and again, you read of the folk there receiving the Holy Spirit, and speaking in in other tongues. In speaking a language they have not learned. It wasn't just on the day of pentecost. And it seems that this is the norm... and there comes a time when you don't always mention the norm, you don't underline it every time, you don't refer to it every time because it is the excepted thing. It is the normal practice. And everybody was aware that this was the norm, and so you accept it and take it for granted. It is however, mentioned in most incidences, in the New Testament. But if they didn't speak with tongues... how did Simon know that they had received the Holy Spirit? It wasn't because their faces suddenly lit up. It wasn't because there was some weird expression that had come over them. How on earth did he know? And the only record that we have in scripture of any evidence of folk having received the Holy Spirit was that they spoke with other tongues. There certainly was some evidence. When Simon saw that the spirit was bestowed to the laying on of the apostles hands... it wasn't just something he conjured up in his imagination. There was some evidence for it. There was something that with one of his sense that he could recognize. There was a physical sign. And yet, in the New Testament there is no other sign given. There is no other physical manifestation given... of the Holy, of the o, baptism of the Holy Spirit, other than that of speaking in other tongues. You see, it wasn't their joy, it wasn't just because they were exuberant, they had already i di, expressed this joy back in verse eight, at the preaching of the gospel, there was much rejoicing in the city! There was great joy in the city! So it wasn't just the joy, he was used to that, this was something over and above that. And certainly, as you read through the New Testament and the... in both the acts of the apostles and the apistles, the apistles of Paul in particular, speaking in tongues... goes hand in hand with receiving the Holy Spirit. Now, speaking in tongues is not the Holy Spirit... and the Holy Spirit is not speaking with other tongues, but they go together. It's an evidence. You know, it's a little bit like a a car log book, or a registration doc document as they're called now. The log book, the registration document is not the car, but it is evidence of the ownership of the car. I've got the registration document because the car belongs to me. I can't drive the document around. And sometimes we make that mistake... as though speaking in tongues was the Holy Spirit. It is but an evidence of the Holy Spirit. It is one of his gifts. One of his ministries, one of his many, many ministries, but it is one of his ministries. And if we've been filled with the Holy Spirit, then we should have the evidence to go with it. There should be the... the aca station if you like, there should be the documentation, and it certainly seems in the New Testament that that is speaking with other tongues, it's not the only thing of course. You see, it's not just speaking in other tongues, there is gonna become the evidence of it as well as we grow in him. Notice also, that there is no evidence or suggestion that they had to wait... for th for this baptism, for this infilling of the Holy Spirit. It is God's free gift to all. That is why I I I mentioned those mar, those remarks right at the beginning, God will never ever send another pentecost, the only people that God told to wait were those early disciples to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came and they had to wait for ten days from the ascension of Jesus until the Holy Spirit came. There is no suggestion anywhere else in the New Testament of waiting for the Holy Spirit. He has already been given! God is not gonna give the Holy Spirit again. He has given him, and he has never withdrawn him! And so it's not a case of our waiting... it's rather a case of our receiving. You see... if I was to say to you, right well I am gonna go out and purchase something, I'm gonna get something and give it to you as a gift ... then you have got to wait until I do that. I might go out and buy it straight away, I might wait weeks, months... before I acquire the particular thing to give to you as a gift, you've gotta wait on on me... giving it to you. But once I have the thing and make it available, and say here is the gift that I promised... it's yours, it's available, then, all you have to do is come and take it. And any waiting, any time lag is not my fault, it's not cos I've been slow in getting it, I've already got it there, it's all wrapped up... it's gift wrapped with your name on it! Any time lag, any any... period of waiting is because you haven't come and received it. And so it is with God's gift of the Holy Spirit. He does not suggest, there is no suggestion in the New Testament that we have got to tarry, and wait, and long and, and so on for it, it's there available to receive. The apostles came down... to Somaria, they laid hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. And this is God's purpose, he is given the Holy Spirit and he has not withdrawn him. It is God's free gift to his people. Harold Carter, some of you will know of him and have heard of him... who was er, a preacher within... one of the early preachers within the pentecostal movement in this country, and one of their teachers, said that to teach people to wait for the Holy Spirit is nothing in the world but a combination of works, and unbelief. You see, if I were to start waiting, it means I've gotta start doing something. What am I waiting for? Am I waiting on God who is reluctant to give? God is the most generous giver in the universe! He's not reluctant to give, he's not slow in giving. Jesus used the illustration, he says, you parents, you fathers, if your children are hungry you don't mock them by giving them a stone... you give them egg, you give them bread, you give them meat, you don't give them a scorpion, something to harm them, you don't mock them by giving them some, something they can't eat! How much more your Heavenly Father will he give the Holy Spirit to those who ask of him? To those who come and receive it. Notice also that Peter and John did not pray that God would give them the Holy Spirit... they prayed that they might receive the Holy Spirit. You haven't gotta twist God's arm to receive his gifts. He is a generous giver! When sa, they began laying hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. In verse fifteen, when they came down they prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in our praying re, concerning the Holy Spirit, we say, we ask God to give, but God says hang on I've already given! You're asking me to do what I've done! Pray rather, that they might receive. And perhaps... we should exercise this idea, this thought... when we pray for the salvation of people. Not to pray that God will save, but rather that people will receive... the gift of eternal life, because God's made it available! He's made his forgiveness freely available, the gift is there! God's gift of eternal life! And the praying is not that God will save people... he's er, done all that he can to save, but rather that people will respond to his generosity and receive his gift. And so we see there in verse seventeen, that they began laying their hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. The onus was not on God doing something, but on them receiving. And you know, if we wait for God to baptize us in the Holy Spirit, can I suggest you'll wait until you die... and still not know that experience. Because... God has done this, he's he's made him available. The thing is for us to receive. To seek and receive that gift. The promise and the fulfilment, let me just give you a couple of verses there in John fourteen, John make er, Jesus he makes this statement to his disciples, in John fourteen, in verses sixteen and seventeen, [reading] and I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper [], another word for the Holy Spirit, [reading] that he may be with you forever. This is the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it does not know him, does not behold him or know him, but you know him because he abides with you and will be in you []. And there,i Peter when he's preaching on the day pentecost, he says this is was has happened, God has done just that, just as Jesus promised. In acts chapter two and verse thirty two, [reading bible] this Jesus, God raised up again to which we are all witnesses, therefore, having been exulted to the right hand of God, and having receiving from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear []. And so,le let's just conclude our our thinking and some of the things we've been looking at, a and remind ourselves that... this gift of God in th the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the spirit, it is not an optional extra, it's not something for super saint, it's not something for special people, or for certain types of people, it is a, not an optional extra, it is God's purpose for every one of his children! [speaker002:] Amen! [Albert Gunter:] Just as he purposed to save you, so his perfect will and, and desire is that you receive, that you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. I again, using that sermon of Peter, in acts chapter two, Peter said to them, in verse thirty eight, [reading] repent and let each of you baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for the promise is for you and your children, and for all who will, as many as the Lord our God shall call to himself []. So it is not an optional extra, it's God's purpose, it's God's desire for you and for me, and for every one of his children! Then, the gift has already been given, and God has not withdrawn it. There will come the time when he will withdraw the Holy Spirit, when he will be taken out of the world, but as long as the church of Jesus Christ is here that will not take place. So the gift has been given and has not been withdrawn. There is only one requirement of re, to receiving God's gift of the Holy Spirit... and that is the requirement of being his child. The requirement of salvation. Any one who is saved, any one who is a Christian, who is a follower of Jesus Christ, who has committed their life to Christ, who has received his forgiveness, and who belongs to him, any one... is ready and able to receive the Holy Spirit. There are no other qualifications! It is a gift after all. Holiness, sanctification, living of Godly life, living a pure life... they're not the criteria, they're not, they're not, God requires that of us, but they are not requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit. We don't have to get to a certain stage of holiness. We don't have to get to a certain stage of sinlessness, before God will give to us the Holy Spirit. If that is the case then every one of us will wait till we die and we still won't know anything about this experience. The only qualification is that Jesus Christ has saved me and I'm following him... and I belong to him.... See, if it depended on... what I did, if it depended on how good I was, on how ru righteous I am, well, I am righteous in Christ! So, all th, even if you wanted to make that qualification, it's there, in him, I am righteous! He is my righteousness, and that's how God sees me, through the righteousness of his son Jesus. And so we are able to receive the Holy Spirit. We can expect to speak in other tongues, as I've already mentioned from Mark sixteen, Jesus said it would happen. And as we read through... the er accounts of this experience in the acts of the apostles, we find it happening again, and again, and again, and becoming obviously the norm. Now what does it do? When we receive the Holy Spir, what happens? What did it do to us? What does it do your life, to my life? Let me say, straight away, it does not make us invincible. Ha! Oh no! It doesn't make us so that satan has no power over us, so that we never sin again. It... it doesn't make us invincible. Not at all! It doesn't give some special credence to our testimony. It doesn't turn us into to super soul winners. Great servants of the Lord! It doesn't do that at all. The disciples were told, before, ten days before they received the Holy Spirit that they were to be witnesses unto him. And as we mentioned last Sunday night this word witness it means a martyr, it means giving one's life. Being totally sold out for God. A living martyr for him. So what is it that God's give to, the Holy Spirit to us for? It is to empower us, it's to, to en it's to enable us... it's to to er... to give us that which we haven't got ourself. But what is the, the basic primary purpose of it? Well, what is God's greatest purpose for you? What is his greatest purpose in your life? It's not to make you the greatest soul winner. The greatest witness. The greatest preacher. It's not that! Because, by obvious reasons that can only happen to one person. [LAUGHTER]... Greatest, is the end of the line, there can't be two greatests. So, that isn't his purpose for you and for me. What is his purpose for our lives then? It's not to make us into some spiritual superstars, like some great leader of the past or present. His great purpose in your life and in my life is to reproduce in our lives, the life of Jesus Christ. [speaker002:] Amen. [Albert Gunter:] Now in some folk that will take special emphasis. It will make them great soul winners. In some, it will make them great prayers. In some folk it will make them this or that, perhaps, not in every body, but for some folk it will do that, but his greatest purpose in your life and in my life is to reproduce Jesus Christ to make us like him. And ultimately, that will be the end of the line for every one us. We shall see him says John, and we shall be like him. But we will see him as he is. And that is God's greatest purpose in your life and my life. To reproduce in us the life of Jesus Christ. In our day to day living. In our service, in our thinking, in our motives, to be like him. There are some folk who will talk about the... the baptism of the spirit, and the gifts of the spirit, and say, oh well, well they're all very well and good but I would rather have the fruit of the spirit. That's a ridiculous statement! You see, it's not a case of either or God's purpose is both of them. His purpose is that we might have the gifts of the spirit and develop the fruit of the spirit. And he doesn't offer them, it's not an either or package... it is, I want both of them in your life! I want to see evidence of both of them, that is my purpose, that you may be like me. And he's given us certain... gifts to enable us... for this to happen in our lives. And one of those gifts is the gift of the Holy Spirit, that's why it's not an optional extra. It is something that each one of needs. In our day to day living, in our living, in our service for him, in our worship, in our relationships with one another, in our thinking, our motives, our our everything about us that we may be like him. Now lets just close with those words of of Peter, on the day of pentecost, [reading bible] it's not for other just, he says it's for you, it's for your children, and it's to as many as there are far off, right down through the centuries, as many as the Lord our God shall call []. And who is he referring to then, what does he mean, shall call? Not call to be special people, to be baptized, but shall call to be his children, his followers. And so it's for you... it's for me, for the person sitting beside you and behind, it is for every one of us! If we are followers of Jesus Christ then he says I want you to receive my gift. The gift of the Holy Spirit. And o on this day when the church celebrates the coming of the Holy Spirit! It's not an historical thing, it's not something we look back to, but it's something that every one of us should be looking to as a present daily experience in our life. The bi, the New Testament uses the expression, be being filled. And you and I, perhaps, we can look back to a day in our life when it was our birthday, as far as that is concerned... and God filled us with his Holy Spirit, we received the gift of the Holy Spirit, we were baptized in the Holy Spirit. That's great! The danger is that we look back to that and think of that. But there's a sense in which every day has gotta be an anniversary of that, a celebration of that. Be being filled with the Holy Spirit. It wasn't yesterday's experience, it wasn't yesteryear, it wasn't something just that happened twenty, thirty, fifty years ago, it's something, Paul says, that should be happening today! [speaker002:] Hallelujah! [Albert Gunter:] That same infilling. The tap has not been turned off. God is still wanting to continue filling... his people, with his spirit. Well let's sing again, shall we?... From the redemption hymnal, er number two hundred and thirty. Number two hundred and thirty. And this song does say that there is just one requirement from our part... and that is, that we want to receive. That we are thirsty. Ho everyone that is thirsty in spirit! [reading hymn book] Ho everyone that is weary and sad come to the fountain, there's fullness in Jesus, all that you're longing for! Come and be glad and, it goes on in chorus to use yet another picture of the Holy Spirit, we've talked of one being of fire, another picture is that of water, I will pour water on him that is thirsty! I will pour floods upon the dry ground! Open your heart for the gift I am bringing. While you are seeking me I will be found []. Two thirty, and let's stand to sing. [piano introduction]

[Albert Gunter:] This Sunday. I'd like us to, look back to that... parable, or part of that parable that Jesus... er, told the folk, it's in Luke chapter fifteen. May well have guessed that already from er, our service this morning. And, let me just read you the, it's quite a short parable this one. Let me just read you the... the o the er, the appropriate verses from Luke fifteen, and the opening seven verses. This is after perhaps... with the possible exception of John fourteen, this is perhaps the, the best known, and best loved chapter in the gospel narratives. Most folk, no matter what they don't know, have some familiarity, but it's not always correct of these parables in Luke fifteen, the lost coin, the lost sheep, and the lost son. So let's just read those opening verses, it says, [reading bible] now all the tax gatherers and the sinners were coming near Jesus to listen to listen to him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them, and he told them this parable saying, what man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the open pasture and go out to the one which is lost until he finds it. And when he has found it he lays it on his shoulders rejoicing. And when he comes home he calls to gather his friends and his neighbours saying to them, rejoice with me for I have found my sheep which was lost! I tell you the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety nine righteous persons who need no repentance. You certainly don't have to be a bible scholar to read this chapter and realize that perhaps the key word in it is the word lost. And there are those who will tell us that really it's not one parable, it's three parables and there's some who think it's, no it's, really it's, it's it's just the one parable with these three little sa, parts of it. One could really argue that in fact there are four parables there really. Because you've got the the er the story, the account of the er, the lost sheep, you've got the lost coin, you've also got the er parable or the story of the lost, the prodigal son, but you also have the... second part of that which is almost a separate story of, the son who had not gone into the far country. But in a sense it doesn't really matter whether it's one parable, whether it's three parables, or whether it's four parables, it's what Jesus was trying to teach to these people, and over these next three weeks, we're gonna be looking at these three, er illustrations that Jesus uses. Again, we see, that one of the very important truths that comes out of this is that people matter to God. Now in a day, in er, in an age when... people are, don't really matter, you know, we we we reel off statistics and they really are meaningless aren't they? You you hear of tragedies, perhaps in,i in... in the Far East... where hundreds, thousands of people are killed in flooding and in the like, and it's just numbers to us. And every single incident, every single one of those people, there i, there is a hu, there is a human being there... a and for every one of them there are perhaps hundreds of other people who are affected by that loss... but it's just a number to us. It doesn't really mean a lot. We become immune to it. And it's good for us to recognise and to be aware and to realize, that in a day when... we are so often just numbers, that as individuals we matter to God. And one of the, the things that Jesus is bringing up particularly in this first se parable here, the parable of the lost sheep, is that he is concerned for that individual, for that one person. You matter to God! Not as a member of the human race, but you matter to God as an individual, as a person... with all your strengths, your weaknesses, with all our peculiarities and our points, as individuals, we matter to God! Another thing, perhaps, we should notice right at the very beginning is that... Jesus didn't actually speak in pa, in in er, in chapters, and they've lost, they've been put in for our convenience, and chapter fifteen is not the beginning of a new incident... Jesus had already been speaking to the people, he had been teaching them in chapter fourteen. Er he he he had been, in verse twenty five, now great multitudes were going along with him, and he turned to them and said to them, and you got there what he tell, what he says, he's talking about discipleship, and of the importance of following him, and the cost that will be involved in following him, and the responsibility of those who follow him, that they are to be salt within their generation, within their environment. And then he concludes what we have as verse thirty five, [reading bible] he who has ears to hear let him hear []. And Jesus hadn't stopped speaking, but even as he's saying that... the these people are gathering around him, the tax gatherers, the sinners, the undesirables of society, they're gathering around him to hear what he's got to say. And as we're gathering around and as Jesus is teaching the people, there are also coming around er bu, being careful not to get too close to the tax gatherers and the sinners! There are the scribes and the Pharisees, and they began grumble saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them, and Jesus told them a parable. He is speaking to the scribes, to the Pharisees. He is speaking in response to their grumbling. They're, they're, they're peeved that Jesus is mixing with sinners. They're peeved that Jesus is in the company of sinners. And you know there are a lot of Christians today who are just like that. They will mix with sinners on their terms, it's alright to speak to them providing you come to my church I'll speak with you. But what about up there where they really are? That's where Jesus went. You know, Jesus didn't spend his days, he went to the synagogue, it was his custom, but he didn't spend his days and nights in the synagogue, he went to the parties. And if Jesus was around today he would be going to the places that you and I would think twice about going to, not because he wanted to have a good time, but because he wanted to relate to the people who were there. He has I haven't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. And one of the accusations that was hurled against Jesus again and again is that this man eats and drinks with sinners! He goes to their parties! He's to be seen in their company! And these religious leaders didn't like it. And there are a lot of... religious folk today who don't like it... who get peeved, and who think it shouldn't be. It's alright dealing with sinners but you must deal with them on your terms, and in, on your home ground. Well Jesus didn't act like that he went to where the sinners were... and he mixed with them. And these people who are moaning and groaning at Jesus, Jesus turns to them and he speaks this parable. In understanding the parables and the teachings of Jesus, one of the things we've got to do is to say well what do the various things in the parables, what do they represent? After all, Jesus wasn't just telling them a nice story. Now there are times when Jesus actually sat down with his disciples afterwards and explained to them what the parable was about... and there was a reason for that, it was because, simply, the folk would not have understood it. Jesus was speaking to them in a, in a concealed language, it was only for his disciples, and whilst all the people heard it, they didn't understand it, the disciples didn't understand it, and Jesus afterwards explained to his followers what he was saying. But there are some parables that Jesus ac explained for the simple reason he didn't have to explain them. The folk would have understood. They would have caught the pictures he was using. They would have seen how it applied. That's why sometimes they got mad at him... because they knew he was talking to them and about them... and they knew that it applied to them. And this is one of those incidents. Jesus then, he's talked to the scribes and the Pharisees. Well what do the different... components? What are the different things in this parable mean? What do they represent? One of the other things, of course, we've got to always bear in mind when we... und, try to understand the parables of Jesus is that you cannot, and Jesus never meant for us, to find us u our, you know a parallel for every single little detail, the... for for the colour of this, or the colour of that, or th the shape of something else, he didn't expect us and didn't mean for us to find out a pa a a parallel, a meaning for every single detail... because otherwise you're gonna be contradicting yourself again and again... but what we must see is, what is the main basic truth that Jesus is teaching here? And in the vast majority, if not in all the parables, certainly in ninety nine percent of them, Jesus is not teaching a multitude of different things, he's teaching one basic truth, and everything else is just to... su substantiate and to provide illustration for that. Well, I suppose the very first thing we've gotta ask is just, who or what are these ninety nine sheep? Now, the common understanding of this... is that, they're Christians, these are those who are followers of Jesus, they're the Christians, and Jesus comes and er, ee er, there's the little, there's the one who is wandering away, who's a stray and Jesus goes after them and brings them back into the fold and so on. And you know the songs th that we sing around this, the song about, there were ninety and nine that safety lay in shelter of the fold and so on. But let's look carefully what Jesus actually said here. Though, you know, there's a sense in which we can use,we we're a, we gave it in you to have a certain amount of license, and we can use illustrations just as we would use modern illustrations to describe spiritual truths and to use them to illustrate the gospel. But what actually was Jesus really saying here? Notice what it says in verse four, [reading bible] what man among you if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine... in the wilderness []? In the open pasture. He leaves them in the open pasture says Jesus, he leaves them in the wilderness and goes after the one which is lost... until he finds it.... So Jesus doesn't leave them in the fold. He doesn't bring them safely home and, you know, have them all securely ti er... closed in for the night in safety and security, he leaves them in the wilderness. Notice... what we said earlier on in that last verse, the last phrase of the last verse in the previous chapter, he who has ears to hear let him hear. Who is Jesus speaking to? He is speaking to the scribes and Pharisees. And boy! They, they got this. It hit them! It hit them right where it hurt! They knew what Jesus was saying.... You see, they weren't sinners, they were good righteous, religious people, there was nothing wrong with them. It was all the others who were sinners! It was the tax gatherers, it was the pe, it was the drunkards, it was the harlots, it was all the others who were sinners, not them. They after all, they went to the tiniest details. They used to even tithe of the herbs in their herb garden! So they wouldn't fail to keep the law in one bit. And Jesus says, you keep the minuscule things. You you ti, you tithe of your parsley, and your thyme, and your sage,yo you tithe of these things, when you, when you go and pick ten figs, you give one fig to to th to to God, you tithe of that but you've left the weightier things undone. You haven't done the important things! You've been straining at gnats, Jesus said, and yet, you've allowed the big issues to go by without bothering with them.... They weren't sinners in their own eyes because they did all these little things. And because they did not consider themselves sinners therefore in their own understanding they were not lost.... Notice what Jesus says in verse seven, he says, [reading bible] I tell you in the same way there'll be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety nine righteous persons who need no repentance []. Now what on earth does Jesus mean here? Righteous people who need no repentance. We all need to repent! The bible says there is none righteous! Know not one! So what on earth is Jesus meaning here, when he talks about righteous people not needing to repent? Well simply, Jesus is being... rather ironical to them. He's using irony. He's being a bit sarcastic. What he's saying is, you scon, you don't think you need to repent. Well, there is more joy in heaven over the person, the sinner who knows their lostness, and who repent, thereover, you ninety and nine who think you're good enough who don't need to repent. Oh, they were lost alright! The problem was they didn't realize it. They were out of the wilderness. They were not safe, they were not secure, but the tragedy was, they are in their little group in their self-contained unit with all the other ninety eight milling around, they didn't realize they were lost! They didn't realize they were in danger. They didn't realize they were still in the wilderness. And that one that had wandered off from the rest... it became aware that it was lost. What does that word lost mean? Now, we can use the word lost in a nu, a number of ways. But, very simply, what it really means, let me give you an illustration. You're walking along the road and you have a pound coin in your hand and you drop it... it rolls along the gutter... erm... Harlow drains are not quite like the drains we used [LAUGHTER] have in London [], but it rolls along the gutter and it drops down through the grating of a drain. Now you know anything about drains, I've never been down them, but if you kno, if you know anything about them, it goes down about three, four foot, five foot sometimes, and then, there is a, the pipe,the there's, there's a ledge there, and then going on down into the, in into the main drains. Now, you can see that coin down there, if you look carefully, you can see it... you can't get it, you know where it is, it hasn't gone through a hole into the centre of the earth... it hasn't, sort of, disappeared into outer space, you know exactly where it is, the chances are you could pin point it within a few inches of where i, even if you can't see it... you know where it is, but you can't get at it... to you, it's lost... you know it's geographic location, you know when it went there, you know everything about it, you only thing is you can't get at it! Now what does that mean? It means that you cannot use it for what it was intended. Cos after all a coin was a, had a monetary value that meant you could go and buy something with it. I it was it was a co, it was, it was currency as far as you were concerned, you could use it, it had purchasing power. Now in a sense, it hasn't changed it's form one little bit, it is still a pound... it is still currency, it still has purchasing power, the only problem is, it's [LAUGHTER] just out of your reach [], and you can't get at it. So to you it is lost. But in itself it hasn't changed one little bit. It is, so what it means when it's lost is, it is not able to fulfil the function for which it was made. You see, pound coins were not made to rest in drains, they were meant to circulate, they were meant to be used, they were meant as a means of currency... and that's what the bible means when it talks about being lost. It's not lost geographically... being lost, you know where you are, you know when you're, you know, you know your situation in time, in space,i in in geographic location, you know what you're doing and all the rest of it, when the bible uses the word lost it means lost for the purpose for which God intended it. For which God intended you. For which God intended me. That is to be hi, for it to be his, to be to his praise, to be for his glory. When we are lost we are not fulfilling that function.... And one of the problems... that these folk had, and one of the problems we all have is as long as we think we're all right, then we're all wrong. Smugness is dangerous. It's dangerous for the non-Christian. You see, this really, this this parable i is the story of of, of something which is lost... almost by default, it just wanders off, it just goes it's own way... it didn't set out to be lost, it didn't choose you know that i, it didn't go through earlier on in that day, in the little brain that the sheep has, there wasn't the thought going, I am going to deliberately get lost today! I'm gonna go my own way, I'm a perverse creature, and I am gonna go astray! I'm gonna give the shepherd a rough time of it! He didn't think that way at all! It just... as is the want of sheep, it just wandered away from one clump of grass to another, losing all sense of time and direction until it, was lost!... And so, and that can be the ca, the same with us. You know, there are different ways that we are lost. Sometimes it just... without even realizing it, just that wandering away. But all, when we are lost... the danger that smugness of not realizing we're lost, we're alright! I know I'm, I know where I am! I know what I'm doing! I know all about it! I'm okay thanks very much! And all the time we're not alright! We're lost! But you know that is a danger not just for those who are lost as far as God's salvation is concerned, there is a danger there for you and I as Christians, of being smug, of being self-satisfied, I'm alright! Doesn't the apostle say, he that taketh his stand, take heed lest yee fall! Cos we only stand in him. And we're only secure in him. We're only strong in him. Paul says, I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing! A danger of smugness. Now the ninety nine, they did not realize they were lost... and yet they were. And the one lost creature, he became the saved one... because it was made aware that is was lost. There came a moment in it's experience when it realized it was where it shouldn't be! When it realized it didn't have anythi, it's mates around him. When he was isolated and insecure, and it was, didn't know how to get out of it, he was in a jam. Now what's Jesus saying? He's saying that every one of us... we are the sheep. He uses that picture again and again in the bible of us being like sheep. The moment we admit our need, the moment we come the realization, I'm lost, I can't help myself, that's the moment that we can be helped. You remember Peter when he was, er, totally different context, but the lesson is the same, when he was... when Jesus called him to walk on the water and he starts walking, and then, he looks around and for what e, for whatever reason he starts sinking, the moment he calls out help... Jesus reaches out and lifts him back him... rescues him. The moment we realize our need... and cry out, that is the moment that God is able to respond. That is the moment that the shepherd comes to our rescue and delivers us. Then, you know, it might be a nice little picture but it's no compliment to be likened to sheep! You know, we, it might be alright to be a nice, to be likened to nice little furry lambs and all the rest of it, but to be likened to a sheep is not a compliment, it's a bit of an insult, because there's no more helpless, stupid creature harpi, God ever created than sheep! They are about the most helpless creatures available! You know, a dog, when it's confronted with danger it can, it can fight it's way out... a cat will do the same, every other creature will, will do something when it's confronted with danger a se, a sheep is so intelligent and is so strong and is, has such a er, a self- preservation er er er... awareness that it just stands and bleats and does nothing because it can do nothing! It has got not power or strength of itself. There are,the there can be few more helpless creatures than sheep.... So it's not exactly a compliment to be [LAUGHTER] likened to a sheep []! It's, to be likened to something that's helpless... that can do nothing! Well of course, it's not er, by chance the bible and God uses that picture... because we're, we are just like sheep in that sense, we can't do anything for ourselves. Listen what Paul says when he writes to the Romans in chapter five... he says, [reading bible] for why we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly []. And two verses later on in verse eight, [reading] but God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. We cannot save ourselves! We cannot rescue ourselves! But in our helplessness, in our sheep-like condition... the shepherd comes and he rescues us. And he saves us, because we can't do it ourself! You know, if it was a dog that was lost, if it was a cat that was lost, if it was even a pigeon that had got lost... they've got some homing device, but the sheep hasn't even got that, it can't even find it's own way home. And that's just like human beings. Lost! Without any hope in the world, the bible says. Unable to do anything for ourselves, and then God comes and rescues us in our hop, hopelessness, and helplessness.... Back in Isaiah, chapter fifty three... th the Old Testament prophet he paints that picture very graphically doesn't he? He says, all of us, like sheep, have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way. Rescuing that sheep was not an easy task. And just as the shepherd had to go out and look for it, and search for it. It di we don't get all the details in the story that Jesus tells of here, but it's quite certain that it wasn't just a case of wandering along a nice path until he found the sheep and then bringing it home. As we've already heard, undoubtedly, it was a difficult job, it was undoubtedly as a hard, a dangerous task in rescuing that sheep. And of course, we know that in the spiritual sense the task of Jesus in rescuing you and I, in rescuing men and women, it was not an easy thing. Er, that same prophet Isaiah, in the same chapter, he says [reading bible] [reading] surely, our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried, yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted... but he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for inequities, the chastening for our wellbeing fell upon him. The law, and by scourging we are healed, and the Lord has caused the inequity of us all to fall on him [].... In saving, in rescuing lost humanity, lost you and lost me, it was the hardest, most difficult, most painful job that God could ever do! It was not an easy thing. Forgiving sin... since Christ has died, forgiving sin is easy... but it was, yet, it was the hardest thing that God could do because he could only do it when Christ died for us. So... the rescue operation was not di, an easy one. It was a difficult one. It is the most difficult work Go God had had undertaken! Creating this world and all the, the millions of worlds and spa, and galaxies and, and all the rest of creation, that was child's play... compared to forgiving you and me. That called that God had exercise it's everything... in bringing it about. We've already heard mentioned this morning, some verses have been quoted from another Old Testament prophet, Izekial who used similar graphic language in Izekial chapter thirty four in verse six, let me read those verses again, he says [reading] my flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill, and my flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, there was no one to search or seek for them []. Oh,th the lost condition! But there is,th th there is the promise in, down in verse eleven, [reading] for thus says the Lord God behold I myself will search for my sheep and seek them out []. God did not give the job, he could not, and he did not try to give the job to anybody else! He himself came, the son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. I myself will search for my seech, for my sheep, and will seek them out. In verse erm... thirteen, [reading] I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them into their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams and in all the inhabited places of the land. I will feed them in good pasture and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel, there they will lie down in good grazing ground, and they will feed in rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock and I will lead them to rest, declares the Lord God []. And David in, that psalm which we read earlier, in psalm twenty three, he paints the picture of how the good shepherd, not only seeks out the lost sheep but once he has brought him back, once he has rescued the, a lost sheep, he care for it. He doesn't leave that sheep that he's rescued in the wilderness, but he brings that one safely home as Jesus says, on his shoulder rejoicing, and he leads it by, as David says, the still waters, and by those green and verdant and lush pastures. Isaiah back in fifty three again tells us what the result will be, in verse twelve. No, it's not in verse twelve. It's in verse eleven, [reading bible] as a result of the anguish of his soul he will see it and be satisfied, he'll be satisfied with the rescue operation, he'll be satisfied with what he has accomplished, Isaiah says [], and Jesus uses, perhaps, even more extravagant language, there in Luke fifteen, when he says in verse six, in verse mm mm, in verse seven, when he comes home with that sheep that he's rescued with that lost... to to... but it now has been found, when he brings it home he says there wi, he says he calls together his friends and his neighbours, saying to them rejoice with me! For I have found my sheep which was lost. I tell you in the same way, there will be joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. The rescue operation brings about joy. Not only joy to the sheep that's been rescued, but it brings joy in heaven. Christ himself is satisfied, as Isaiah, says. He comes home rejoicing. And Jesus speaking to these... scribes and the Pharisees he's... pointing the finger says, you, can I paraphrase and, perhaps use... well no, Jesus used some pretty strong language against these people. He called them white inseficus... full of dead mens' bones, but looking nice on the outside. Graves. And he saying, you miserable bunch of people! You are so wrapped up in yourself. You are so conceited and smug! You don't realize that you are lost! And I can do nothing for you... because I've come to rescue and seek that which is lost, and which is aware of it. I'm, come to seek and to save the lost. And you don't realize that you are lost, and not only that, but you are griping when those who realize their condition call out to me and I'm reaching to them and rescuing them, you are griping at that! That's what Jesus is saying in this parable. Let me just close with some words from Matthew chapter nine... in verse ten, he said that [reading bible] [reading] it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house behold many tax gatherers and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and his disciples, and when the Pharisees saw this they said to his disciples, why is your teacher eating with the tax gatherers and sinners? But when Jesus heard this he said... is it not those who are healthy who need a physi, it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick []. That's it. It's those who are sick. But go and learn what this means. I desire compassion and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call the righteous... but sinners. Jesus is not suggesting there are some who are righteous and some who are sinners, because we're all sinners, all have sinned... but he's suggesting that those who don't realize and acknowledge they're sinners, he says, I haven't come to call you. I've nothing for you. But those who recognize their need, they're the ones that I have come to call. They're the ones that I have come to rescue. They're the ones that I have come to find, and to bring home rejoicing and full of gladness! Causes, even heaven to rejoice when they see those who are lost acknowledging their lostness, and responding and being found. Well, we're gonna sing now. We're gonna sing from the redemption hymnal... and it's number three hundred and seventy six.... Three hundred and seventy six in the redemption hymnal and... whilst we're singing this we're gonna be... taking up our morning offering. I'm not ashamed to own my Lord or to defend his cause... maintain the honour of his word, the glory of his cross! At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light, and the burden of my heart rolled away, it was there by faith... I receive my sight and now... I am happy all the day!... Three hundred and seventy six. Let's stand to sing this shall we?... [piano introduction]

[John:] It's gotten off of me. [Ruben:] That good is it? [John:] [LAUGHTER]... Now. that away. Have you come across anything think ooh we could do with a look at that? [Ruben:] Erm... no. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Oh. [Ruben:] Erm [John:] Okay. Are you still working through past papers? [Ruben:] Not really. I mean she, actually she might have given us.... Just been given a new exercise book, textbook. [John:] So you've been, you've been back at school since I saw you last, and you've just [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] been working on What? [Ruben:] Graphs. [John:] Graphs.... important thing about graphs. [Ruben:] Erm.... Are they? [John:] If there was an exam question which said sketch a graph of, where would the marks be found?... What would you get marks for? [Ruben:] The axes. [John:] Okay, X and Y. [Ruben:] The... points [John:] Which parti particular points? [Ruben:] Points given for... like co-ordinates. [John:] Erm let's, if they say sketch a graph, [Ruben:] Right. [John:] I they wouldn't give you any points. [Ruben:] Erm... directions. Or shape of the line. [John:] Okay, general shape. What would be the interesting parts of the shape? [Ruben:] Where it crosses through the X and Y axes. [John:] Okay, X and Y axes, anything else that might be an interesting point?... [Ruben:] Erm [John:] .... Just checking it was on at a reasonable volume. [Ruben:] Erm... end... or anything else that might be interesting. [John:] Mm. [Ruben:] Where it cross the X and Y erm... [John:] What's... where are the interesting points on that? [Ruben:] Er er er... [whispering] there [].... [John:] Okay and these are, these are fairly interesting as well. [Ruben:] Just. [John:] What's happening in the, near the, the limits?... As X becomes a very very very small number, or a large negative number, if you like to think of it that way, where X is very large. So, sketching a graph is not the same as plotting one. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Any idea what that graph would be?... [Ruben:] X squared. [John:] Erm, what would... not quite the right shape... what would that graph be? [Ruben:] Y equals something... plus X squared. [John:] Right, there'd be some X squared in it. And there might be, it would be something X squared, and there might be something X and er well there's definitely a constant [Ruben:] Mm. Yeah. [John:] cos when X is zero still there's Y has still got a value. So that's going to be minus something [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] so it's about minus three.... X squared... cuts the X axis in two points. [Ruben:] Two points. [John:] This one [Ruben:] Three points. It's [John:] So? [Ruben:] X cubed. [John:] So this is, there's going to be an X cubed term in here somewhere, and there might be X squared and Xs and anything else, but if it cuts it three places, it's got three r three roots. So it's X cubed. What about this one?... I have to sketch curves This sort of thing. Just touches.... [Ruben:] Y equals X squared. [John:] Something like, it's going to have an X squared in it somewhere. It's a bit lopsided, but it's [Ruben:] Where's the X, where's the Y? It's gonna be about plus three, three plus. [John:] Mm. [Ruben:] X squared. [John:] So it'll be something like... X minus three X squared. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] if that's three. Just touches. Counts as two coincident roots. Two which are the same. So X equal three or X equal three. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] sort that one out.... Erm don't forget these endpoints. If you have something like... Y equals X squared plus six... What would that look like, going as X goes from minus infinity through zero to plus infinity? What would be the interesting points on that? [Ruben:] Erm that'd be six. Y would be six,.... [John:] Mhm. nought is six. [Ruben:] Erm [John:] What about when X is about sort of point one. Nought point one. What's Y equal to, roughly? Approximately. [Ruben:] Just over six, six point [John:] s [Ruben:] two. [John:] Six and a bit. Erm that's when it's minus nought point one four, or plus nought point one I went through the minus point first. It's still about six, six, six and a bit.... What about when X is sort of around infinity? What does it approximate to? [Ruben:] Erm minus infinity. [John:] So, it's minus infinity or plus infinity. When X is very large or very very small.... at minus a million. [Ruben:] Erm [John:] What would that approximate to? [Ruben:] A million plus six.... No... [John:] Do you enter a big competition, and you could win a million pounds plus six. Compared to the million pounds nobody bothers much about the six, so [Ruben:] Just a [John:] when it gets very large, Y is roughly equal to X squared. So if you know the graph of Y equals X squared which unfortunately I can't draw tonight it's... draw it for you, could draw it from the inside keep telling everyone else. Right. Now, there's a Y equals X squared. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So around here, round this bit,... there won't be any difference. [Ruben:] Hmm. [John:] Around... six plus six, let's say plus six in there.... For, for some length, that'll be sort of almost flat, won't it? I mean [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] till we get to X equals a one and it starts making a bit of difference, so it'll probably go like this. Okay, so a lot of it, that's a very important, those are sort of very important parts of the graph. Tend to [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] get neglected. People say oh I'll take it from minus five to plus five.... Right? If we had something like Y equals erm X minus ten. Right. Times... X minus erm or times ten minus X... like that, okay. Funny way of writing it, but you ca you could write it that way. [Ruben:] Ten X. [John:] Erm... people might say oh well we'll take it from minus five to plus five. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] And you'd get some sort of shape. But you'd miss a lot of important points. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Erm if they took it from minus ten to plus ten [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] you'd see a lot more things of interest and maybe say oh I'll take it from minus fifteen to plus fifteen. But you're still missing out a big, very important part of the graph, because for a lot of its range it actually, you know, looks something like well what would that look like? When X is gigantic. [Ruben:] ... Ten times. [John:] If, if X was a million say, you could forget about a million minus ten, let's just call it a million, [Ruben:] [sniff] [John:] times ten [Ruben:] Ten. [John:] minus a million, we'll forget about the ten, just think of the minus a million. So it's a million times minus a million. Roughly. A million times minus a million? [Ruben:] Ah. Minus. [John:] What's, okay, let's come down a bit. What's plus three times minus three? [Ruben:] Three. [John:] What's plus three times plus three? [Ruben:] [whispering] [] Nine. [John:] Right.... And, minus three times minus three?... [Ruben:] Minus nine. [John:] No. Minus three times minus three? [Ruben:] Oh nine. [John:] Right. So,. [Ruben:] It's a million so one million [John:] It's a [Ruben:] times minus one million. [John:] Is? [Ruben:] [whispering] million times [] [John:] And what is the sign of it though? [Ruben:] Minus. It's the same [John:] Right. So it's minus a million squared. So wh when X is very big well, say, when it's big compared to ten [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] this looks like Y equals minus X squared.... [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] And this part of the graph, in there I mean that wouldn't start showing until we get beyond about say twentyish.... At that point, it could be doing all sorts of weird things, and you'd think oh, I've got this wonderful graph and I plotted a lot of points close together, so I know my sketch was right, because it looked like this funny W thing or M or something [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] erm it might well look like that for that very small piece of graph, but the overall picture you've lost completely by not going far enough so you, you want minus infinity to plus infinity. When you substitute infinity in, just think well if it was about a million, what could we ignore? I mean, you could work all this out... right.... Ten X plus another ten X. Okay? And then minus a hundred and minus X squared, and put the millions and things in but don't need to. You've got it factorized like this, you could just, oh, that's about a million. It's about minus a million, so it's about minus a million squared. And there'll be marks going for. It's where most people throw it away on the sketches, they just pick a tiny, tiny portion and look at that in great detail, say ah, look at that, wonderful. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] But you've lost the, the overall shape of it. Tt, erm plotting graphs, you had one question didn't you where they asked a gradient? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] And you measured it with a protractor, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] it was forty five degrees so you thought it was one, but the scale was two to one. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] The gradient is the tan of the angle, but you can only read that off the graph if you've got the same units. Same scale on the X and Y. Erm what would be... let's say someone gave you this... find an approximation for the gradient... erm Y equals X squared... minus one. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] X squared? [John:] Y equals X squared minus one, at around the point where X equals three. Someone wanted to know the gradient. [Ruben:] So, so [John:] Ooh. [Ruben:] you d you'd have to find Y. [John:] Okay. [Ruben:] So Y is three squared minus one. [John:] Yeah okay. [Ruben:] be Y would equal eight. [John:] Yeah. [Ruben:] Erm... so [John:] Good. Right, draw a sketch, cos we need to know what we're working with here.... [Ruben:] So Y could perhaps equal three.... [John:] the rest of the graph... [Ruben:] ... the opposite point. [John:] Right. Good. It's symmetrical down the Y axis.... [Ruben:] And the lowest point. [whispering] [] It'd be about one. [John:] About one.... What's the graph going to look like here, when X is very big? [Ruben:] . X is going to go up when Y is a million. [John:] X X is a million. [Ruben:] X is a million. [John:] What, what would Y be? [Ruben:] A million squared. [John:] Yeah. So th the minus one doesn't make a lot of difference, so as X is very, when X gets very big, it'll just look like Y equals X squared, taking one off if [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] you're working with millions of millions. So it looks like Y equals X squared, moved up a bit, more or less, as a good approximation.... I mean a hundred is probably big enough, twenty five might be is more or less big enough. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Er five, say we can have five here, you can have twenty five, over here somewhere, [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] behind your shoulder. Yeah it'll actually be twenty five minus one, [Ruben:] Minus one. [John:] but it's a good enough approximation just to see what it'll look like. [Ruben:] So how do you work out the gradient? [John:] Well you see, it's pretty flattish isn't it? The gradient of a curve is the gradient of tangent, so we can draw a tangent where you wanted it at that place. It would be the gradient of the tangent. [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] If it was at the bottom where it's flat, where you just, you're just coming down, and then you started to go up again, just at the bottom there, it's, it's zero for a moment. But what would the gradient be there, and how would we find it?... [Ruben:] Er... [John:] It would, it, up here.... So could you do an approximation, a ver just a very rough guess. I mean does it, does it lie over that way or has it sort of gone back on itself? Lies over that way? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Is it more or less straight up? More or less horizontal? About forty five or? [Ruben:] It's probably about seventy. [John:] Right. Maybe seventy, maybe eighty. So you could draw a rough sketch like that, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] just measure it with a protractor, or measure along here.... That would be... if we drew wh wh how do we find the gradient really? We draw a little triangle, don't we? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So at point one, it's nought. What would, what would that be at the point two? For X [Ruben:] Three. [John:] equals two? Two three. So we could get the point two three, and we could take the gradient of that as being fairly close to the gradient of the curve. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Erm how can we get it more accurately reflecting what's happening there? Right. Point something. So if we did something like that that's where we want it. That's where we want the gradient [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] and we took a line from there to there, where this is that's where X is equal to, that'll go far. Nought nought point nine say.... And just the other side of it, where X equals one point one. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] We're going to have, difference along the X axis will be nought point two. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Find out what the difference, what the, don't forget the difference [Ruben:] [whispering] On the Y axis []. [John:] on the Y axis. [Ruben:] So. That's point two there.... [John:] So what's, what's the value of Y going to be?... When X is nought point nine?... [Ruben:] Point nine squared, minus one. [John:] Okay. We can forget about the minus one because we're going [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] to take the minus one off again on this one so we've got, the difference is going to be X one squared minus one minus X two minus one is X two squared minus one, minus X one squared minus one. And they're just going to [Ruben:] Cancel. [John:] cancel out. [Ruben:] one. [John:] So the difference is going to be one point one squared minus nought point nine squared [Ruben:] Point two squared. [speaker003:] Is it? [Ruben:] [whispering] Two point two []. [John:] Can you remember the factors of A plus B times A minus B.... [Ruben:] A squared... minus A B [John:] Yeah. A squared minus A B [Ruben:] [whispering] Plus []... Plus B A. [John:] Minus A B plus A B? [Ruben:] two A B. [John:] No. It's not two A B, it's minus A B and plus A B [Ruben:] Plus A B. [John:] which cancel each other out. [Ruben:] Yeah. Erm [John:] Then... plus B times A m [Ruben:] Minus B squared. [John:] minus B squared... One point one squared [Ruben:] Minus [John:] Point nine squared.... A squared minus B squared so it'll be, be one point one, plus point nine [Ruben:] Minus. [John:] times one point one. [Ruben:] Minus. [John:] Minus? [Ruben:] nought point nine. [John:] Nought point nine. I mean you could square them on your calculator, it might be easier. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] give you twice [Ruben:] Two times two. [John:] nought point two. Nought point two squared would give you what? [Ruben:] Point four. [John:] Point four. Try it on your calculator.... [Ruben:] Point nought four. [John:] Point nought four which is s... very little. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] But twice point two, [Ruben:] Give you point four. [John:] will give you point four. A hundred times as much. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] So here we've got [Ruben:] This is less than one. squared. [John:] squared it gets smaller and smaller. So that's going to be nought point four. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] So the gradient at that point is about two. Erm what wh where were we where did I say find the gradient? Where X equal to three? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Sorry something wrong that. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [cough] So we'd be, oh, okay, that's good cos you can do it. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] When X is three? [John:] So when X is two point nine, say. Two point nine, and then [Ruben:] Y [John:] when X one see what Y is down here.... It was three point one. Don't forget you can look at this, Y equals X plus one times X minus one, which, when you see it that way tells you where it's going to, where its roots are. Where it's going to cut the axes. [Ruben:] Yeah. X... So there Y will be two point nine plus times two point nine minus one. [John:] Right. [Ruben:] Which is three point nine times nought point nine, [John:] Okay.... But f we can, we can, we can save that to the end because... I think that was [Ruben:] Aye. [John:] confusing probably wasn't it? When we're doing it this way, we can forget about the, with this X, X two is going to be three point one squared [Ruben:] [whispering] Minus one []. [John:] minus one. This one is going to be two point nine squared, minus one. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Subtract them that way round.... They'll go out. And we've got three point one squared, minus... [Ruben:] [whispering] Two point nine squared []. [John:] [whispering] Two point nine squared []. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Which will come to, if we add them it's six times nought point two. The gradient will be one point two. That's a bit better because a gradient of one is forty five degrees and we s we said it should be more than that. Erm... one point two. Find out which ang what angle has a tan of one point two. [Ruben:] [whispering] Tan minus one [].... One point two.... Fifty. [John:] Fifty. So you were, you were closer to seventy. You see how hard it is to see just from the graph, from a, from [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] a sketch, if you plotted it on paper, but this is without plotting it, we're getting it quite accurately. Erm... maybe someone says it could be useful for you to try it again, without any help from this page at all. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So we've got Y equals X squared, minus one.... And we want the gradient at the point where X equals three. But we want to get very very close to it, like only nought point nought one before it and nought point nought one after it. So what value would? Around the point where X is three. [Ruben:] Erm so you'd need... nought in the middle. [John:] No, I'm not thinking of drawing a sketch at the moment, we've done the sketch on the other page [Ruben:] Ah. [John:] and we're just thinking of... what value are we going to, what would be the value of X point nought one before three?... [Ruben:] Er two point nine nine. [John:] Okay. Two point nine nine would be one of them.... Just after three would be? [Ruben:] Three point nought one. [John:] Right. Right? [Ruben:] And in between would be three. [John:] Between would be three. Up one that, we'll just take. What will Y be when X is that? [Ruben:] Erm two point nine nine squared minus one. [John:] Okay. So you'd just write it as, I mean as it's minus one, you can take it off as you go along, but it's, sometimes it'll be a minus six or something, so write it as two point nine nine squared minus one. [Ruben:] Erm three squared minus one. [John:] Okay. Now subtract [Ruben:] when you have to [John:] that Y from that one. [Ruben:] Okay.... It's two point nine nine plus three point [John:] Mm. Oh Oh, yeah, don't, don't do it all in your head. [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] Do the first stage first. Take that expression away from that, and once you're left, what happens to the minus ones? [Ruben:] They cancel. [John:] Right. So what are you left with? In terms of the squares. [Ruben:] Two point nine nine and three point [John:] Which one's first? [Ruben:] Two point nine nine.. [John:] Now we'll just take the [Ruben:] That, three point nought one, minus [John:] Right, so it's three point nought one squared, [Ruben:] Minus the two point nine... minus Erm [John:] What was the difference in the Xs? [Ruben:] Point nought one. [John:] Point nought two. [Ruben:] [whispering] Point nought two sorry []. [John:] So we put that underneath, on the bottom half of the fraction.... Okay. That's, that's... Now when you've got an A squared minus B squared, you can factorize that I mean you could just do that on your calculator, and do it in one go, but it's quite easy to do it as... three point O one. A plus B, times A minus B. Okay? [Ruben:] So three point nought one plus two point nine is point nought two. No sorry, is five point six. [John:] Is six. [Ruben:] And the [John:] the top is six. [Ruben:] Six. [John:] Times. [Ruben:] Times three point nought one minus [whispering] two point nine nine [], which is point two. Equals [John:] Six point oh two.... Now work out what it's equal to. [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] All over? [Ruben:] One point nought two. [John:] Right. [Ruben:] Do they just cancel out? [John:] Right. They do cancel out. [Ruben:] Six. [John:] Six. So the gradient [Ruben:] [whispering] Six []. [John:] Wh when you do it to sort of fairly accurately like that, it six. When we did it fairly roughly, it came to one point two? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... six Because, because we didn't do this bit did we? That should have gone I think that was wrong. That should have been six times nought point two over [Ruben:] Minu Yeah. [John:] Which again comes to six. So, that's more like it. What's the, what angle has a tan of six, then? Now it'll be in the seventy or eighties. [Ruben:] Eighty. [John:] Eighty? Good.... to be fifty. Erm you can do that with any curve. If I gave you sort of X to the seventeen or something, well you could put two values in. And you could bring them fairly close together and say well I can't tell you exactly what the gradient is at that point, but if you draw a tiny little line and take the gradient of that. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] That's er that's good enough, that's close enough. That's a very good approximation. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So gradients are a very important part of, of sketching a curve. Erm you already pointed out some of the important points where the gradient gets to zero. Erm... does, does things that might be interesting?... Okay. You've already mentioned it earlier, actually, symmetry.... Not always symmetrical about this axis. They might be symmetrical about here or here. Or it this way round. [Ruben:] What's that? [John:] What's that? That's a. Erm [Ruben:] Well I mean what gives you that? [John:] What gives you that? Well, what does that look like from the way you're looking at it? [Ruben:] s [John:] The way you're looking at it, it looks something like erm Y equals X to [Ruben:] [whispering] X [] [John:] the fourth plus three or something. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Good. So looking at it this way up I mean... it's... X equals Y to the fourth... plus three and that's all minus. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. [John:] X X equals three minus Y to the fourth.... It's a funny way of putting it. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] But you could write your equation that way. Er if someone says that's not good enough, I want it in terms of Y equals well okay we'll have to bring the three over to this side, and take the fourth root,. But you can always swap the axes, if you don't like what they give you. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] So if, if I say draw erm... Y equals the square root of X, and you think I haven't got a clue what that looks like. You can square both sides. You can draw Y squared equals X, and all you have to do is say well, I can draw... the other way round. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Y equals X squared. You draw your Y equals X squared, turn the paper round that way, and whichever way, I'm going to draw Y equals X squared. And erm... Y equals X squared, and that's Y and that's an X. Then turn it the other way up to get X equals Y squared, and now that's the Y and this is the X. And this is a, should have drawn it that way round, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] to get the, the X squared, this would be the minus X squared. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] X squared look like that. Y squared equals X. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Erm you don't have to do that very often, but it is sometimes, it fits. It's handy. Rather than doing it the other way. What, what have you been doing with graphs at school? [Ruben:] Erm [John:] Sketching and plotting? [Ruben:] there's the revision. [John:] . Have you done every one? Every question... twice... three times? [Ruben:] Four, even. [John:] Oh, that's too many. [Ruben:] No actually, [John:] Oh you'll have to [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Oh I'm sorry, I'll go back to three. [John:] you'll have to do them all you'll have to undo [Ruben:] Do them or something. [John:] That's it. Do them all backwards, yes. [Ruben:] I haven't got it with me. [John:] Mhm. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. So... you've been sketching them? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] And plotting them? [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Have you been erm [Ruben:] Speed-type graphs. [John:] Mhm. Good. Aha, have you been asked, erm what is this? Here's a graph, now guess the equation?... [Ruben:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] No. Okay. You don't really need to, but it's, there usually isn't time to cover it, cos you've got other things, but it gives you a much better feel for it if you, if you see the other side of the picture all the time. That you're not just in isolation, looking at one little thing, because you can miss a lot.... Erm you might think that all graphs always look like that, or bits of graphs are always like that, or where does it all tie in?... Distance time graphs. One of those on every exam so far. [Ruben:] Mhm. Yeah.... Yeah. [John:] Are you happy with those? [Ruben:] Er I think so yeah.. [John:] Okay. What's, what's happening here then?... This is a good way [Ruben:] We do them in physics.... [door opening] [John:] Oh lovely. Thanks very much. [speaker003:] Okay. [John:] [door closing]... [Ruben:] I [John:] Right, that's erm as time goes on along there, [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] this is displacement, which is the distance from a fixed position. come from that way. bit of negative time in there. What's happening there then? [Ruben:] Well it's speeding... up to there accelerating and it's [John:] Mhm. [Ruben:] It's speeding up again.... [John:] What's happened? That's, that's, that's a, that's a straight line, and you say it's speeding up? That seems to imply that, I don't think it's speeding up, [LAUGHTER] doesn't it []? [Ruben:] Yeah.... Erm [John:] So the gradient there, is S over T, how far you've travelled. Let's say these, let's say we mark this off in one second intervals along here. If I got the intervals right they'd be the same. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So every one second, it's gone another ten metres or so. [Ruben:] Yeah.... [John:] Gradient is the same all the time. [Ruben:] Ah, so it's just steady [John:] Fixed constant speed, constant speed. How about... have a bit so that bit... [Ruben:] Erm... don't know. [John:] Mm. S I'd say that's ten metres or something. Where are you after one second? [Ruben:] Ten metres. [John:] Ten metres. Where are you after two m? [Ruben:] Ten metres. [John:] Mm. It's not moving. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] As time goes on, its distance stays the same. Now it looks like, ah just stopped moving again, straight line, fixed speed that, this looks as if it's accelerating. It's very, it's deceptive if you're not working out what you're doing and relating it back to the graph, and relating it back to physics, to an experiment you're doing, someone's checking the clock every second to see how much further it's gone. Oh well, in the last second it went another ten metres. Last second it went another ten metres. It's going at a steady speed. Fixed constant velocity. But here, that's still where it was last time I checked my watch. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Not moving.... So that's a steady speed. [Ruben:] And it stops. [John:] That's, it changes... abruptly. From a steady speed. [Ruben:] It doesn't need to brake or does it just?... [speaker003:] Mm. [John:] If it's a physical body, to change speed, it'll have to have to brake. And the s what would, so, that's a fixed speed.... There's another str another straight line.... There's another straight line, another fixed speed. Which one is faster? [Ruben:] Every one second, ten metres. Every second that's going more than ten metres [John:] Right. [Ruben:] So that [John:] So the steeper it is? [Ruben:] The faster. [John:] The faster it's going.... So at this point, it's almost flat. So it's going very slowly. Now what's happening to its speed? [Ruben:] Accelerating. [John:] Yeah. The speed is increasing. Sort of [Ruben:] Stop. [John:] sort of actually stops, and then it's going very slowly again for a bit, and then what happens here?... [Ruben:] very, it just goes very fast [John:] Right. [Ruben:] in a very short space of time then, but then carries on. [John:] Very short space of time it's gone quite a distance. So that was a, that is at, that constant speed there is much faster than, than this one. And then, it's stationary [Ruben:] It's [John:] for a while. And then [Ruben:] Just goes down there. [John:] What's happening here? [Ruben:] Deceleration. [John:] Well let's make, let's make this bit a straight line, from there to about there. That's a straight line.... So, well let's go back to the physics.... We've just been going on timing it for one minute or something.... And we time it again, one minute and one second... [Ruben:] It's reversed. [John:] It's reversed. How far away was it when I started the watch? Thirty metres away. How, how far is it after another one second? Twenty metres away. Ah. Ah! [mimics fast object] It's coming back. Okay. So that's going backwards. Most graphs will keep going on up, and there's a tendency for people to make them come back down again [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] or at least to where they started. That means it's going backwards. Erm... now you don't do, paper three, you don't do... velocity time graphs, but you probably do them in physics don't you?... You would do them in physics. [Ruben:] It's just like pure coincidence. [John:] Aha!... Oh that's a good one that. [Ruben:] Revising it yesterday to be honest. [John:] That's a good one. got all pictures in it. Yes it has, but these are, those are, I've seen those before and they are very nice graphs, I would recommend them to anyone.... Right.... So, you were revising them yesterday. [Ruben:] Should I [John:] Well the big thing, ah. See, it's very easy to get confused between distance against time, speed against time, and even acceleration against time. [Ruben:] Yeah, because I mean it had them in our exam, [John:] Right. [Ruben:] in our mock, we had like those four pictures, and you had to say which was [John:] It comes up time and time again, and you have to know the difference between the different types. So... you also, when you get used to each type individually, need to then be able to switch between [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] between one and the other. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So if we've got erm... acceleration against time and we get, no, no peeping. No peeping. We get a flat one, what does that mean? [Ruben:] It's Every one second, you've gone further. [John:] We haven't gone anywhere we've measured the acceleration. [Ruben:] The acceleration there is say forwards. [John:] [whispering] One two [] [Ruben:] And for every one second, you're going forty metres per second. So you're going at a steady speed. [John:] Per second. It's, it's a, it's an acceleration, it's metres second to the minus two. Now are you happy with that, because most people aren't? Okay. We'll come back to that in a minute, but... let's say... a rocket, or a car, which would you prefer that do? [Ruben:] Car. [John:] Car. Constant acceleration car. Erm... no frictional resis resistance, you just put your foot down and it's, you know where a car accelerates from rest [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] and then after a while the acceleration reduces? The speed is still going up, the acceleration, and eventually it reaches a top speed and it stays there. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Okay, it's zero acceleration, it's not getting any faster. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Erm... how would we measure that? A constant acceleration. Say we had an accelerometer. An acceleration measurer. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Which force on a weight or something can feel acceleration, I think you can, my son said you can't but I think you can [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So, acceleration is a constant. What's your eventual top speed?... It just, just keeps going faster and faster and faster and faster [Ruben:] Infinity. [John:] Infinity, speed of light, when you hit something. It's pretty high. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Erm now how are we going to measure acceleration?... Let's say we've got erm a radar for, for measuring speed [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] velocity. Okay. And we'll set up a, so we're going to, you, you devise an experiment, Neil. Measure acceleration. There's a car, and we want to know its acceleration between two points. [tape change] [speaker003:] doesn't matter. [Ruben:] There's your car. Erm... you start the stopwatch. Er stopwatch you m you time it from... there to the ten metre. [John:] Erm what's along your X axis? Your independent variable? [Ruben:] Time. [John:] Time. So, when would you next check its acceleration? Would you measure in terms of distance or in, in terms of other time [Ruben:] Time. Ten seconds. [John:] Ten seconds. We'll make it one second. [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] Make it one second. Alright, make it ten. Sorry,, make it ten seconds. [Ruben:] Plus one second.... Then the you have to... have y how far the car has travelled, [John:] Do you?... [Ruben:] know how quickly. [John:] What is acceleration? Give me a figure, that you might have seen in an advert, when you're drooling over BMWs and things, Maseratis. [Ruben:] Miles per hour. [John:] Telling you about its acceleration. What does it say? [Ruben:] Goes from nought to sixty. [John:] Good. In? [Ruben:] Six seconds. [John:] Six seconds. Nought to sixty in six seconds. So those are the units of acceleration.... From one speed to another speed, [Ruben:] In however qu [John:] in so, so much time. So let let's say, instead of quoting from nought, they said well a much more useful figure is perhaps, which they do quote in lots of these car magazines, is erm forty to sixty [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] because that's what you need for overtaking someone. You can go from forty to sixty in point three seconds or something, you can really shoot past anything on the road. So forty to sixty, miles per hour, metres per second, whatever you like, let's say metres per second. Let's say it goes from... forty to si forty metres per second to sixty metres per second in ten seconds. More of a slug, this car. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So what would that acceleration be? How w what would the units of acceleration be? [Ruben:] Twenty metres per second per second. [John:] Twenty metres per second, per second. [Ruben:] Per second. [John:] It's simpler to say per second per second. It's Or per second squared, or second to the minus two. What is this rubbish, it doesn't, doesn't, cannot possibly mean anything real. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Well, it is real. It's... erm fifty miles per hour... per hour. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Right well we'd normally say, miles per hour per second. What's, what's your acceleration at the moment? Well it's ten miles per hour per second. Okay? Well every second, I'm going I'm going ten miles an hour faster. So miles per hour per second, or you could measure it per hour if you wanted. Every hour, I'm going six hundred miles an hour faster [Ruben:] So [John:] so it's miles per hour per hour. [Ruben:] you'd need a stopwatch and a speedometer. [John:] You'd need a something to, I say, we've got something to measure the speed, radar gun, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] not interested in the distance, just the velocity, the speed. How fast is that car going now? Okay, he's doing forty miles an hour. Measure him again in one second's time [Ruben:] He's doing sixty. he's doing sixty miles an hour, so his acceleration was twenty miles per hour per second. Per second. [John:] Twenty miles per hour per second, miles per hour, what's the change this miles per hour into metres per second. Okay, so, say a hundred and twenty metres per second per second. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And that's where your per second per second comes in. Are you a bit happier with that? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] But not totally convinced. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] No []. [John:] Erm... that length per time per time, is the unit. Let's just have a little look. What are the units of displacement? [Ruben:] Er [John:] What's the difference between displacement and distance? [Ruben:] Displacement is how fast it's going, the speed. Miles per hour. [John:] Show me something that is erm arm's length away from, from your right shoulder. Okay, show me something else that's an arm's length from That's your right shoulder isn't it. Arm's length. I was expecting you to go like this. [cough] Right, okay, that, show me something else that's arm's length from your right shoulder. Right. Up there [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right. That's distance. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Displacement is distance in a specified direction. So if I said show me something that's arm's length from your right shoulder north, or up, or west or some way, okay, or on a bearing of thirty seven degrees [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] that's displacement. We don't usually tend to bother with distance much, so when, when the police measure your speed, they're actually measuring [Ruben:] My dad's [John:] your... [Ruben:] my dad's speed. [John:] your dad's speed. [Ruben:] Not mine. [John:] You don't drive? [Ruben:] No, no, no. [John:] Yeah, of course. [Ruben:] Can't be my speed. Not unless I'm on me bi on my bike, and I doubt if they'd measure me. you, you did eighty on your, on your bike did you? [John:] Over, over fifty on a pushbike. Do you know Bo? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] You know Ben Lech? hill, red hill going down to? I was young and foolish at the time, [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Fifty miles an hour on a bike []? [John:] Very, very high gear on it, we used to go out a couple of us [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And er... we were passing this M [Ruben:] You've got this on tape remember? [John:] Oh no! [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] We went past this bloke in a Morris Minor, [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] a convertible, with a eyes streaming, it was really hard to see, and clocked his speed at fifty, and er the bloke behind me nearly got hit, [LAUGHTER] because when I went past this bloke [] I went [swerving noises] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] all over the road. [Ruben:] No you didn't really though did you? [John:] [cough] Ooh no. [Ruben:] No, no you didn't. [John:] No officer I didn't. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Distance okay? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] And displacement.... When they measure your speed, they're measuring your velocity really, they're measuring it in a particular direction, along that road. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Erm so... we'll call it distance, right? But we're actually talking about displacement, just so that you feel more comfortable with it, cos there are other things coming up to make you feel less comfortable you see. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] So the police say you were doing forty miles an hour. You say how do you know I was doing forty miles an hour? I wasn't driving for an hour, you weren't following me for either an hour or forty miles. They say, ah well, we followed you for a tenth of a mile, right, and it took you so long to cover that. And we, our little machine here has calculated it that that's forty miles an hour. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, so what did they do? They had your hundred a hundredth of a mile say, let's say it's erm... let's say it was a tenth of a mile. Nought point one miles. And they divided that by erm... nought point O [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] hours. [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] Right? And they said you did point one mile in point O O one hours [Ruben:] Hours. [John:] so what speed is that? [Ruben:] Er [John:] Have a guess at it then check it on your calculator. [Ruben:] Point... [whispering] one divided by point zero one []. Will the two first cancel out? [John:] Do they? [Ruben:] No. [John:] If I gave you this... tenth, hundredth, thousandth okay?... What would you do? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Run. [John:] that's hours. [Ruben:] Are those? That one and that one cancel. [John:] It would cancel out. So you've got one over one hundredth. So that's a bit tricky that, doing it that way, you've got one over one hundredth. The, the easy way, do you like fractions on the bottom of fractions? [Ruben:] No. Oh, times by... ah. [John:] What are you going to times it by? [Ruben:] Times that by ten over one. No, times that by a thousand over one. [John:] Times that by a thousand.... Okay, and you've done, you've done that on one bit of the fraction, so you must do it on the top as well. Times that by a thou aargh. You've got to times that by a thousand. Okay? Multiply the top and bottom of the fraction by the same [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] thing. So why did you multiply that by a thousand over one? [Ruben:] To get that [John:] a thousand times a tenth. So doing a hundred miles an hour. [Ruben:] [astonished snort] [John:] Well, for a hundred miles or an hour, but you did a tenth of a mile in a, a thousandth of an hour. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So, you did so many miles per hour, we calculated, you would have done so many miles if you'd been going for a full hour at that speed, so your dis your, your speed, velocity really but we'll call it speed, right? Your speed was so many miles per hour. okay. And then they measure your acceleration. Well, when we first clocked you, you were doing a hundred... miles per hour. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] One hour later, [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] you were doing [LAUGHTER] five hundred mile an hour []. [Ruben:] It's you on your bike isn't it? [John:] [LAUGHTER] It is []. Shh! [Ruben:] I'm sorry. You're not on your bike. [John:] I don't mind I don't mind confessing b up to fifty, but five hundred mile an hour, [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] even in a, in a foreign country, like Wales [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] it's a bit much. Okay. So, you went, you gained four hundred miles an hour [Ruben:] In one hour. [John:] per hour. You're accelerating at a rate of four hundred miles per hour per hour. [Ruben:] Per hour.... Mm. [John:] Mm. [Ruben:] So that means in another hour, you'll be going nine hundred? [John:] I in another hour, I'd be doing four hundred more than that, so nine hundred. Or, I mean this is if it's an average, and sort of an even acceleration. [Ruben:] So before you were doing minus three hundred mile an hour. [John:] Yes. [Ruben:] Bet you didn't expect to minus, did you? [John:] I, I, I haven't recovered from that yet. [Ruben:] Yeah I know. [John:] Negative speed. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. [Ruben:] You're reversing at minus three hundred miles an [John:] So acceleration is rate of change of velocity, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] which is something like speed, only it's a bit it's got a direction. [Ruben:] Velocity's given a direction. Yeah. [John:] Right. And velocity is rate of change of displacement. Which is sort of distance, but with a direction. The direction that velocity has got comes from measuring the distance, the displacement, in the direction. Right? So if we say he went from, let's, here's, here's a map. And there's north. [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] Right. And let's say he went from there to there. A distance of two miles in one hour, this time we're walking. [Ruben:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Let's make it half an hour, okay? Then [Ruben:] [whispering] Speeded up []. [John:] his displacement [Ruben:] Is two mil [John:] the amount he walked was, his displacement was two miles south. The distance he walked was two miles. But the displacement, how far is he from where he started? He displaced himself by two miles south. [Ruben:] Two miles south. [John:] Okay. So his velocity, [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] if he did that in half an hour, what would his velocity be? [Ruben:] It's just speed given direction, so two miles [John:] Two miles [Ruben:] per [John:] two miles south, in half an hour. [Ruben:] Two miles per, one mile per hour, [John:] Mhm. [Ruben:] per [John:] Mhm. Is it?... If he did two miles in half an hour, how far would he go in one hour? [Ruben:] Four mile. [John:] Right. [Ruben:] So it's four miles per hour... per hour. [John:] Per, no, well [Ruben:] Per [John:] we're just talking about this velocity stuff, [Ruben:] Oh, so it's four miles per hour. [John:] South. [Ruben:] South. So you have to put the south? Four miles er hour sou [John:] If it's a velocity. If it's a velocity. They won't bother with it on G C S E maths, but physics they want to know the difference between velocity and acceleration. So, if he was going, if he, he's walking and he breaks into, a breaks into a trot, [Ruben:] A Trot? Gallop. [John:] A canter to start with let's say. [Ruben:] Oh no, that's horse racing. I I don't want to talk about that. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] My horse won. [John:] A National oh! Ooh. [Ruben:] My horse won. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Ooh. Oh dear []. [LAUGHTER] And did you have a lot on it? [Ruben:] Twenty er [John:] Twenty million? [Ruben:] Twenty pounds was going on it. It was just in the sweep. [John:] Oh. [Ruben:] Sixty to one outsider, and I thought oh well, I don't stand a chance on it. And it won.... Is, it was my sweep that I was doing so I'm keeping the money, nobody else can have it. Since my horse won. [John:] Well there was, did you hear about the woman in Ireland who won about a hundred and fifty thousand? Did you hear that? [Ruben:] No. [John:] Oh, she drew, she was the only one who didn't draw a horse on the National, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] I think it were the Irish Times or something, or the Irish Betting Times or something like that, and she was the only one who didn't draw a horse, and she thought oh well that's it, no chance. And they, they, sort of the panel met, and they decided to give it to [LAUGHTER] her, because hers [] was the nearest to a result. [Ruben:] What? [John:] The other people who'd drawn a horse, [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] well their horse [Ruben:] This is a sweep? Yeah. [John:] . Yeah, this was it was some form of competition, I didn't hear what [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] it was, I just caught the tail end of it on the news, on the [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] radio. And erm, but they decided that as she hadn't drawn a horse in the National, she'd got the n she was the nearest to a winner that they could [Ruben:] Aha. [John:] find, because all the other who had drawn a horse they, they were void. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] [LAUGHTER] So she won []. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And she'd already decided, no chance I didn't draw a horse. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] Cos she didn't draw a horse she won, yeah. [John:] cos she didn't she won. [Ruben:] Mm. Did you put a bet on? [John:] Did I? I didn't. [Ruben:] You're a mathematician. [John:] I I often, well, usually, if I'm in the country at the time I bet on the National just for a, for a to sort of waste some money. [Ruben:] But you've got to check out the odds. [John:] I l I do check out the odds, [Ruben:] Yeah I thought you might do. [John:] and erm I only put place bets on. Last year I had a place bet on the winner, I couldn't even tell you what it was now. But I didn't bet it to, I didn't back it to win, I only backed it to come in [Ruben:] Each way. [John:] the first four. Not each way, just place. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Just er wh when you put an, when you put an each way bet, you put two bets on at the same time. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] One bet says that horse will be first. The other bet says that horse will be in the first three. Or if there are a lot of runners, that horse will be in the first four. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Now when you're, my grandfather, who was a serious betting man, always used to tell me, he was pretty good at it actually, he'd say [mimicking] no good each way bet. Betting against yourself is an each way bet, you're just giving money to the bookie []. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I thought well you give money to the bookie anyway, but [Ruben:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] so erm I just put a place bet on. And put it on, they used to give me tote odds, sometimes I asked for them, usually they'll automatically give me tote odds. Sometimes I've asked for them. Now the odds on the tote, I mean if you looked at the, I didn't bet on the National, cos I didn't like the odds. [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] There was a race just before the National, might have been the one before, or the one before. But something like erm a five or six horse race. And they had seven to one, there was eight to one, there was a ten to one, [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] National, a forty horse race more or less isn't it, thirty [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] nine or something, [Ruben:] Thirty nine,. [John:] thirty nine horse race, anything can happen. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Absolutely anything can happen in the National, as, as was [Ruben:] yeah. [John:] proved this year. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] And they had the, the erm they had sort of five out of the five or six horses that I thought were in with a good chance at eight to one. They were eight to one in the National. I, I'd take eight to one o over any of those brilliant horses sort of getting round once. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] I thought, these bookies are going to rake it in. So I was I wasn't disappointed then [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] that they didn't. But I thought it was very interesting, Peter O'Sullivan didn't have a bet [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] and he said it was the only year that he hasn't. I thought he knows something. There's some fix [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Er no, quite often, I mean there was seventy five million pounds [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] on that, and it was a lot of money. And my old grandfather used to say too sometimes [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I'd say it, what do you think of this horse, and he'd say oh, it's carrying too much money. [Ruben:] Yeah. Too much of a favourite. [John:] Too, too mu too many people betting on it. Something, something or someone will get to it. So it'll come in a close second. And [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] the odds will be such that it's not worth doing for a, a place, but if you're betting, I mean forget how much I got last year, but I think it came in about thirty to one or something. So I didn't get thirty to one, I got [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] a quarter of thirty to one, which is still [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] much better than backing it to win and it comes second. Anyway, it did win, and the wife was saying why didn't you bet it, why didn't you back it to win! Why didn't you back it to win. She backed the second each way, despite me saying I'm not, I'm not going in there [LAUGHTER] and back it each way for [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] you []. Oh alright, alright, I will then. But erm, so she got erm she, he made a bit of money I think, I think I went rash and put a fiver on. [Ruben:] It's just the fu I mean I, I'd ne [John:] But it's when you're watching the race. [Ruben:] I'd never bet on any ra I'd never gamble, I mean, I would as a joke, but like not serious. I mean, the National I thought, yeah, it's a good laugh like. And that's the fun of it, any horse could win. Anything could happen. Much like it did. But I mean my sixty to one horse!, never even been heard of. I mean the jockey, the jockey [John:] Oh, I wouldn't I wouldn't [Ruben:] was crying. [John:] He would be. But, mind you, there were a few very good horses that d weren't [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] in it. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Yeah. I suppose [John:] I, I, I wouldn't have given that a chance, I must admit I would never have backed it. [Ruben:] Sixty to one,. [John:] Sixty to one. [Ruben:] I thought before it, well, forget that one. I had another good horse, and I thought well I'll stick with that one, I think that one might stand a chance. And I saw it, and they g and I saw it wasn't going to happen. Like, when they all went off and I thought well I don't see, why don't they just stop it. And like I thought oh well, I'll watch it like, and they're commentating anyway. [John:] didn't know whether to you know, whether to commentary [Ruben:] Yeah, I know, they're like. [John:] Well, they're doing well there, it's all a waste of time I mean [Ruben:] Yeah. Yeah. [John:] obviously. [Ruben:] And like, kind of I saw my horse, it took the lead near the end as well, [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] it was like go on, go on, go on! And it won. And I thought oh well. [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's a wonder that bloke didn't get lynched.. [Ruben:] Yeah, I know. But I think I heard on the television like somebody goes I'll see you in court, I'll sue you for millions so like, it's terrible, but I mean, they, Desmond Lyneham was int was erm tt talking to so to someone from Ladbrokes, [John:] Mm. [Ruben:] and he goes well that's a million to one chance that that would, and Des Lyneham goes I wouldn't have minded having [LAUGHTER] a little flutter on that []. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] And he goes you couldn't have got the odds on it like... putting a pound on like, I bet you no horses finish, you know. [LAUGHTER] [John:] ... That wasn't five pound, I remember now. It was five one pound bets that we put on between us, I put two on, my wife put three on, and all mine were place bets, and I got the winner and I got the fourth, and my wife got the second, and the other one of hers lost. so we were alright. But mine were only a quarter of the odds they were paying at [Ruben:] Mm. But still. [John:] erm and hers were a quarter of the odds, plus she lost her stake on the part that was betting on them to win. [Ruben:] Mm..... Yeah. But I mean I was thinking like as well cos like we did taxes like a few weeks ago didn't we, and the tax that the government get off that race, I mean seventy five million on the whole race, [John:] Right. betting tax [Ruben:] and then and then [John:] is ten percent now, isn't it? [Ruben:] Yeah, well I paid fifty pence per horse, on our five horses. [John:] What stake? [Ruben:] But I er it was about two f yeah, I put a fiver, but I put it each way, so [John:] Five pound each way? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So it was a ten pound bet? [Ruben:] Two fifty. Yeah. No, it was three horses, five pound bet, [John:] Mhm. [Ruben:] on each. And it was fifty P. I think, I can't remember [John:] I don't understand what your stake was. [Ruben:] It was, I put five pound on each way. [John:] What was the total total money that you, that you put on? Oh, they take tax off now, don't they? [Ruben:] Yeah, or [John:] Yeah. [Ruben:] Aye you can either pay for tax when you pay, [John:] Yeah. [Ruben:] or take it off your winnings, but [LAUGHTER] I'm not going to take it off my winnings so [] [John:] Yeah. So I think probably about ten percent, so they lost [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] about seven... seven and a half million. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Now, so these racehorses, let's draw a graph of the racehorse. [Ruben:] It's not called actually [John:] It's called erm What was the one with the erm Scudamore? [Ruben:] Scudamore, erm Captain Dibble. [John:] Captain Dibble. I fancied that. I thought it [Ruben:] Yeah, I thought that was, I had a bet on that. [John:] Captain Dibble's good chance. So there they are, ready all ready for the off, [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] and they're not fidgeting, they're absolutely motionless, [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] and they're at the start line. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So time is zero. And displacement, how far they've got from the start line? [Ruben:] It's zero. [John:] Is zero. You put S for displacement. Which is why we don't use D for distance. Right. They're off. And it's over to Ruben at the, at the stand commentary box. [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] Well Ruben, what's the displacement like, tell us all about the velocity and the acceleration? [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] How's it going? [Ruben:] I'm waiting for I T V to get there, okay. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Oh it's a false start []? [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] Yeah, yeah. Alright. [John:] They've got negative acceleration. They're all going backwards. [Ruben:] So for each one's like ten metres, [John:] Now along here, is your time. [Ruben:] Oh. So, ten seconds. [John:] all of these all these graphs that we're thinking of have got time along the X axis. what's happening every ten seconds. [Ruben:] So for every ten seconds there the horse... s its displacement is. [John:] So it's a distance they've got away from the start. [Ruben:] Ten metres. [speaker003:] Ten metres. [John:] ten metres. [Ruben:] Okay, so in the first ten seconds, probably gone about [John:] Let's say they go at. Wh what happens from start to [Ruben:] They start off slow and get then faster and faster. [John:] Okay, so the gradient... which shows you how fast they're going If it's more or less horizontal, they're still. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] If it's just a little bit of an angle, they're walking. If it's almost straight up [Ruben:] So it's going to be [John:] they're doing two thousand miles an hour. [Ruben:] It's gonna be [John:] So it's going to go up like that, gradually Good [Ruben:] And then [John:] Okay, take it up like that. [Ruben:] So... [John:] Well, they false start, and now they stop. [Ruben:] Oh. [John:] Okay, they stop. [Ruben:] They're decelerating. [John:] They've, they've stopped, they're just standing, stood stationary not going anywhere. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Come back. They all come back to the start. [Ruben:] So, it'd be the exact opposite. [John:] Er they walk back. [Ruben:] So ah. [John:] They w they turn round and they walk back. [Ruben:] So they'll be... ah. So it'll be just like [John:] Yeah, nice. A gentle, a gentle slope, so they just walk back. Like that.... They stop. When they get back to the start again. In fact they go a little bit past the start.... And then they come back to the start again. And they stop there for a bit, when they've gone past the start. [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] go back to the start again.... Okay? So they're off. That, that's, that's more of a, and they're doing very little to start with, and then they rapidly get up to their top speed, and they level out. [Ruben:] And then the man goes with his flag. [John:] Whoa! And they stop. They usually don't stop dead, they usually dec decelerate, so what's happening here is I'll just draw it up here. Start off, the speed's nothing to start with. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Or virtually nothing. It's getting steeper, and then, speed gets slower until it stops again. So zero speed, flat, level, okay? Getting faster, steady speed in that bit, and then from the speed there which is steep, as you follow the tangent of that curve, it's slower, slower, slower, and they slow down to a walk, and then they stop. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. [John:] [whooshing sound] Okay that was the first one. Now this time, in this re-run, the second attempt at getting this National started, not having any flags, red white or anything else, used a proper old starting pistol, and we fire it in front, [Ruben:] Shoot the horses. [John:] and we just I'm sure that's why they just start it, just fire it across the line in front of them, if you want to risk a false start [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] then fine. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] But use live ammo. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] So there's... there we are, and these are ten metres each time, so ten, twenty, thirty and let's say after... after a hundred metres... fifty forty. After a hundred metres you've got The Chair, that's where The Chair is. Oh not The Chair, the first fence.... The first fence. [Ruben:] The man with the little flag's gone somewhere. [John:] . Police notice saying no parking. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So this time they get a good start, and they're off. [Ruben:] Okay, so ten second intervals. [John:] And let's say that they're [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] let's say they get up to full speed at erm after about... twenty seconds, it's alright, I'm just getting them [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] to a gallop first. [Ruben:] Oh r okay. [John:] From a [LAUGHTER] racing start []. [Ruben:] If that was a camera. [LAUGHTER] See. [John:] [whipping sound]. N Not too much use of the whip. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Right, so after twenty seconds they're up to full speed, and flat out, erm they're at forty five degrees. Okay? They've a speed on this graph it would be represented by an angle of forty five degrees. So they start off slowly, [Ruben:] Right. [John:] they get up to full speed, at twenty [Ruben:] After twenty [John:] seconds. [Ruben:] After about there they get to full speed. [John:] Yeah.... [Ruben:] So they start off... about there. [John:] Mhm. Okay, and now that point.... If that's the point there... from that point on... the distance. They've reached full, they've reached that. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] So if they kept on flat out, every ten seconds they'd go a further so many hundred metres, for ever and ever. They're going alright until they come to The Chair.... Now, so that's The Chair there. On the approach to The Chair, they slow down a bit. [Ruben:] [whispering] [] [John:] Gather them up. [Ruben:] [whispering] [].... [John:] And then just as they're on The Chair, they suddenly accelerate violently, to pop over it. [Ruben:] As they [John:] about a metre, a metre out from it when they take off. hop!... They pop up and over it, and when they land on the other side and they slow down a bit. Back to their, back to their normal speed again. And then the starter recalls them. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Nice walk round The Chair, and down there. Are you happy with that? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. And let's have a look at this. Have you got a red pen? I sort of scrabbling about in my [Ruben:] No sorry. [John:] On the sa these, these graphs I think look better on the same axes, if you've got different coloured pens.... That one writes with its cap on. [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] novelty. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Now, how can you tell? That's distance, displacement, against time. Someone wants to look at, someone wants to look at that graph, and get some idea of the speed from it, the velocity. What would you tell them? How would you interpret that graph? I say well what's, what's happening here, what are they doing? [Ruben:] For every ten seconds er... no for w for twenty seconds, the first twenty seconds, they're accelerating to twenty me metres per second per second. [John:] Erm you accelerate to a speed. You can have an acceleration of so many metres per second per second. But you can't tell that from here, we're not, we're not, we're not into the acceleration yet. pinch that a minute. not to cut my nails. Ooh.... So there's the speed, just after they've [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] started.... Hardly moving. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] What's happening to the speed now? [Ruben:] It's [John:] And now, and now it reaches its peak. And what peak does it reach? Let's have a look. [Ruben:] Highest. [John:] Let's take from there to about, well there's four. About there to, and there's, there's two. So from that point to that point, you could work out the gradient. That's divided by twenty seconds. And what distance have they travelled, from there to there? [Ruben:] Erm [John:] From twenty to seventy... say seven call it seventy five. Twenty to seventy five. [Ruben:] Fifty five. Fifty five. [John:] Fifty five. They've done fifty five metres. Not very fast at all, this lot. This is not going to be a world record-breaking National. [Ruben:] Bit like this year. [John:] So they're going at fifty five metres every twenty seconds, and you can imagine Peter O'Sullivan, now look at this Pip, they're going at a, a nice steady fifty five metres every twenty seconds, what's that in metres per second? Well, divide that by twenty.... Almost three Yeah. Wow. [cough] [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] What's that in miles per hour? Well, that's almost one, one and a bit miles an hour that is. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [John:] Okay? So that's the, the, you can read off their speed from the graph, you can calculate it. [Ruben:] Metres a second, sounds fast. [John:] If we made those hundredths... then it might be a little. These were every hundred metres, four hundred metres is about a quarter of a mile, so quarter of a mile in twenty seconds. How far would you go in a minute? [Ruben:] Four hundred metres in twenty seconds. So you'd go twelve hundred metres in one minute. [John:] Twelve hundred metres, and that's three quarters of a mile or so, in a minute, [Ruben:] So that means the race should be over in about [John:] Ah. [Ruben:] four mi in about four minutes. [John:] About forty five miles an hour. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] That's [] [John:] So we've now gone from a real slow one to a really definitely record-breaking [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. Car speed. [John:] So let's plot what the speed is at different points. What's the speed here? Well, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] how does the tan of that, the slope of that compare with that? This bit here is twelve hundred metres per second we decided wasn't it? Er per minute, let's do it per [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] second, it's erm [Ruben:] About three metres per second. [John:] about three metres per second there. So that's three metres per second. This is, now let's, let's mark up here. Now here, metres per second. Right? Nought, one... two, three, and these are all metres per second.... From that point, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] to that point, we're doing a steady three metres per second. [Ruben:] Yeah.... [John:] So that's what, that's what the velocity looks like. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Steady. The distance is increasing steadily, the velocity is a steady velocity. And what's happening down here, the velocity has got less, here it's quite, quite a low velocity. The velocity is increasing, that angle is increasing. And that sort of, and it's increasing more rapidly at the beginning. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] They're probably goes like this, running like this.... This is the velocity, and what happens here? Well the velocity gets a bit less, [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] We're still trave we're still going further away as time goes on, but we're not going as quickly. [Ruben:] As fast, yeah. [John:] Now, acceleration, [Ruben:] So as long as you're in the X positive, then you're moving in a positive direction, or a er [John:] Depends on which graph you're looking at, if you're looking at your, your displacement your distance, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] S against T,... right, then as long as you stay in the positive half, you are on the right side of the starting line, you haven't gone back and crossed over it. With the velocity, as long as it stays up there, it's travelling in the direction away from the starting line. When it comes back over the starting line [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] then it's travelling in the opposite direction, it is now [Ruben:] You could have gone [John:] velocity in the opposite direction. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] And if this goes round a sort of roughly circular track, the we're not measuring velocity, we're measuring speed. So acceleration then.... What is acceleration? Well the acceleration is the steepness of this graph. How quickly the speed is increasing as time goes on. So the acceleration here is sort of pretty sharp acceleration to start with, then a fairly steadyish acceleration, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] yeah? At so many metres per second per second. And then, what happens there, along this bit? What's the acceleration doing from there [Ruben:] Remaining constant. [John:] to there. The velocity is remaining constant. [Ruben:] The s s s [John:] The acceleration is, how is the velocity changing, how much is it changing? [Ruben:] Three metres [John:] It's constant, three metres per second, constant velocity. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Got it? So the police got his radar gun on your horse, [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] you don't get there first []. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Right, what's he doing? He's doing thirty mile an hour. What's he doing now? Thirty miles an hour. What's he doing? Thirty miles an hour. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] What's his acceleration? [Ruben:] None. [John:] . Good. Brilliant. This car does thirty miles an hour to thirty miles an hour in fifteen years. [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Right []? It doesn't matter how long it takes, it's going to, you know it's not accelerating. So its acceleration is this. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] a green one or something, but I'll do it as a red one [Ruben:] That's pens for you. [John:] So that's its acceleration [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] over that. So just over this short stretch here, which is the simplest part of the curve, a nice steady velocity, a nice steady speed, a fixed three metres per second, forty five miles an hour, whatever it is.... That's its speed. So that's, that's, sorry, that's its, how its distance is changing as time goes on. This is over the same event that we've recorded... how the speed is changing, it isn't, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] it's fixed, and this is how it's accelerating, well its acceleration zero all the time, he's not getting any faster. but how can his acceleration be zero? He's still doing the nice steady thirty. Yes, but he was doing that a second ago. And we're doing it in a second time. No acceleration, no faster no slower. So those three graphs for the simplest bit, superimposed. If you have a look through your, that really good book, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] erm, you don't like looking through it, but can I just look through for you and learn it for you. [Ruben:] [sneeze] [John:] No. If, if you can look through that now, you'll get a lot of benefit [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] out of what we've been doing with this. I mean don't n necessarily mean this evening, or fairly soon. Erm... cover everything else up, and just concentrate on one. And start with the how does the distance change as time goes on? How far from the start line have they got?. And look at that, interpret it, think oh well, the distance is increasing only fairly gradually as time goes on, but when it gets to there, the distance is increasing at a constant rate, as time goes on, so we've got a constant speed. But now it's not increasing as quickly, its gradient has come down a bit. Its gradient is the speed all the way through here. So then from that graph, try and predict before you look at it in the next picture [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] how the, how the velocity itself is changing. I mean well you've, you've looked at what you think acce what the, the velocity is, which is the gradient on the distance time graph. Then check it against their velocity time graphs to see if it's correct. You get some funny bits or going the wrong way. Try and and work out why. And then when you've got, when you look at their velocity, velocity against time, try and work out what the acceleration is again it's the slope.... when it's not changing. you're looking at the velocity, that'll be velocity, so where it's not changing, there, the slope is zero, no acceleration. Now if you take that through the examples they give, cos they're quite good ones in there, it will mean a lot.... Erm I don't think, don't think there's a year since what? Since what? Well since that fracas with the Grand National that they've er that they've missed this. They always have a distance, time, velocity acceleration one of those on it. Probably only distance and time, distance and velocity. So probably won't need to worry about the acceleration ones. Very important for the physics, because what's happening at that point as far as the physics is concerned, when the acceleration is zero, not, think of a racing car accelerating up to top speed, down the straight and it just can't go any faster, it's got up to a hundred and eighty miles an hour, and it's [Ruben:] Like going on a flat road, without putting the brake [John:] Yeah. [Ruben:] the gas. [John:] Flat road, no brakes, and he's got his foot hard to the floor, it won't go any faster. Erm what's the, what are the physics of it? [Ruben:] The physics? [John:] Or the kinetics or. Without looking it up. What, what's happening? Why won't the car go any faster? Usually you put your foot down hard, it goes faster. Why won't that car go any faster? [Ruben:] Because all the power its [John:] Putting all its power into it, okay. [Ruben:] Erm... its engine [John:] What's stopping it? [Ruben:] Engine's reached its [John:] No, [Ruben:] top force [John:] engine could go faster. Top force. Okay the engine is pushing as hard it can to try and, like a lot of people running behind leaning on this car pushing it forward, and why, why isn't it going f usually if you keep pushing something it goes faster and faster.... Until [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] it reaches top speed. Why does it reach this top speed? [Ruben:] Erm... Is it the backward force? The, because it's being pushed back, cos the opposite force, when you push, something else always pushes back with erm... if you push on this table, [John:] Pushed back on me, I felt it, then shot off. And it stopped when it hit something. It didn't have much friction, so it was going along there alright. Erm... Why do they do wind tunnel tests on cars? [Ruben:] A wind tunnel? [John:] Erm [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] a wind tunnel is where they put this, put the car in stands and they blow air at it, and they little smoke trails that show how the air travels over the car. Where it breaks up and makes eddies, turbulence.... Right. It's the wind, it's, it's, try erm, ever tried running through fairly shallow water? To about just over your knees? [Ruben:] Pretty difficult, yeah. [John:] It's the drag of the water, dragging you back. Well when you walk in air, there is a very slight drag, but you don't feel it. Have you tried cycling into a strong wind? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Especially recently? [Ruben:] Yeah, yeah. [John:] And that camper is, is quite big on top, [Ruben:] A lot of wind pushing [John:] I went down yesterday to erm.... And it was getting dragged back and the engine was going like mad trying to push it along and the wind was pushing me back, and I was thinking am I going forwards or backward here? [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm normally, erm, normally it wouldn't, it wouldn't do ninety, [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] but er it was all it could do to do sixty. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] was the wind. [Ruben:] I suppose, if the wind was on its back, then it'd get pushed along,. [John:] It does, yeah, on the way back on the way back it was pushing it a bit. Because of the way the drag works, it's better if it it's worst if it's not quite head on, but slightly offset from head on. Similarly with a tailwind, it's not exactly behind you, but just a bit to one side. You could feel [Ruben:] Is that they're so low to the ground? [John:] That's why all cars a few years ago started looking the same, now they all look sort of like this. R rounded, rounded there and not much there, and sawn-off at the back.... And they're low to the ground, so the ground effect and that so the air can go over there,... breaks up here and gets thrown off... erm... it's just the air. The

[speaker001:] [cough]... [Thomas:] Sounds of the seventies [speaker001:] Bit depleted today. [Thomas:] Alright, it's alright [Dave:] Hey [Thomas:] th they'll be here. [Dave:] top minutes you got there Peter. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Th they're blacker than black I had a lot of trouble with the photocopier, right. [Andy:] That's, that's like the Spinal Tap album.... The, the black on black album. [Pete:] You want to see the agenda? [speaker006:] We can I well I [Dave:] The agenda's even better. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] I wrote it on orange paper in blue ink and it all went horribly wrong when I photocopied it so I've put... an agenda on there right. [John:] Becky do you mind being taped? [Pete:] We can't have [Becky:] Mm? [Pete:] any matters arising from minutes. [John:] being taped? [Becky:] Do I mind being taped? [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] No we can't have any that's like readable. [Becky:] That's alright, it's all anyway. [Pete:] Well, near enough. [Thomas:] resemble him. [John:] man [Pete:] Right. [speaker001:] Right. [Pete:] ... [speaker001:] Good. [Andy:] I'll never be mistaken for him in the street then. [Thomas:] Possibly. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [John:] We're being recorded [Pete:] Be excited. [Becky:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] She's very excited. [Becky:] No, no I'm... [speaker001:] Are you coming to one seat Tom? [Pete:] Right. [Thomas:] Probably easier to write who's not here. [Pete:] Right just. The there's two lists going round, right. One of them's just th the attendance list. And one of them is cos the gentleman who's taping the meeting would like a sort of signature for the people's consent to tape it. [chair scrapes, making strange noise] [speaker001:] Oh God. [Pete:] So like [Becky:] I don't [Pete:] ... and he's interested in sort of accents and, well piss off then. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] What are they like? [Becky:] ? [Pete:] Could you all sort of pass that round. over there er [John:] You can just look at the periodic erm... [Pete:] Right erm Andy. [Becky:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right. Er first, [Chris:] Put me down. Tom, put me down. [Thomas:] Yeah, well you have to sign it. [speaker001:] You gotta sign it. [Pete:] You've got to actually sign it. [Chris:] Oh is that, that the one you've got to sign? [speaker001:] Yeah. Right. Er Er this looks quite good. [Becky:] Shall I put my name? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Pete:] We'll have an ap apology straight off. [Becky:] Can I have a pen please? [speaker001:] Is it today? Andy? ... [Pete:] Right apologies. Has anybody got any apologies [Becky:] Do you want to put that? [Pete:] with them? Yeah. Well er... Julia what's her name,, can't attend cos she's having a reaction, in chemistry. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Have you got a pen? [speaker010:] I might have actually. [Pete:] And... er... Tony something's... arose suddenly and er [Dave:] And fallen. [Pete:] and had to run away, sort of. [speaker001:] [whispering] Wanker []. [Becky:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I need a wee. [Pete:] Right er plenty of minutes so I'll, I'll quickly read them out, and then if anyone's got any... matters arising they know what Er number one Wentworth are booking both not Goodricke. Number two, I sent off a letter saying about people not coming and er Wentworth haven't sent a I dunno. [Thomas:] Oh. [Pete:] Er shall we affiliate to the Christian Union. I haven't been able to get any tickets for the Word as yet. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Er bookings, that's been sorted out. Gossip scandal, Vanbrugh bop is being heavily restricted. Er but in actual fact, it's like a major thing here, but he did very well. Would you like to make a small report on that, Mr Vanbrugh? [speaker001:] Er yeah erm... the smoke machine thing we got away with now, we went to see them. And er use our smoke machine as long as the porters can see how many are in the bop. [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] [LAUGHTER] Long as the porters can see their own hands []. [speaker001:] Erm yeah. Basically, yeah. It went okay went down to four hundred people [LAUGHTER] in the whole area instead of five, but apart from that. The, the bloke, the health and safety man said it was all okay. [Pete:] Well, [speaker001:] Except for the [Pete:] will, will your take actually increase for four hundred? [speaker001:] No, cos before that [Pete:] You were [speaker001:] you always could get away five [Pete:] you were allowed five. So y your limit has now been set at five? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] Okay. [speaker001:] Erm yeah we can take things into the hall as well now. Hurray. [Pete:] Oh excellent. Very well done. [speaker001:] Thanks very much. [Pete:] So sort of general appreciation to Vanbrugh for having their act together. [Dave:] Yeah. [Pete:] I think they deserve an [Thomas:] Round of applause. [Pete:] Right. Any other business? Right the quiet period I have some dates for the quiet period. [Becky:] Ooh er.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Why? Pardon? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Becky:] [LAUGHTER] Dates []. [speaker001:] Do you wish to [LAUGHTER] What like dried up, dried grapes prunes that are no longer in top condition. [Pete:] Okay, so if you're all gonna [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] make a note of this right. [Chris:] by the way. [Pete:] The quiet period... starts on the eighteenth of May... and it goes right through until... the twenty first of June.... Right er okay that's [speaker001:] [cough] [Pete:] the quiet period. Er Alcuin want twenty fifth anniversary but nothing's come about that has it John? [speaker001:] No. [John:] What's that? [Pete:] About the Alcuin twenty fifth anniversary even though it's now now [speaker001:] No, no, no [Pete:] the twenty sixth. [John:] No. [Pete:] All the J C Rs are represented so we can't fine them. [speaker001:] Shame. .... [Pete:] Right has anyone got anything they want raising from that list?... No. [speaker001:] Frank. [Pete:] Number two, electrical safety. I've had a letter [cough] and er... there's various lists of people you might all have got one eventually, I don't know, but it's from the university engineer. And it's about the free electrical checks for electrical gear. And it says [reading] the remaining dates for the free inspection and testing of equipment have been cancelled. With all due respect to those who intended to avail themselves of the free offer, the first two appointments were not met with sufficient organization to permit cost-effective equipment testing. My staff were faced with untidy heaps of apparatus [mimicking American accent] apparatus [] in equipment rooms, and received little or no help from the student representatives []... So and then it sort of flabbers on a bit saying they're [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] not happy. [reading] I do hope that positive arrangements are made to contact me in writing and that we can continue to work together to provide safe working conditions. Please accept my apologies if you're already working towards this arrangement of the new cancelled dates []. So that's a bit poor there, I feel. So [John:] Yeah that's very poor. [Pete:] Maybe so [John:] Who's er which colleges? [Pete:] He hasn't, he hasn't named colleges. [John:] Well I'm going to [speaker001:] our own [Andy:] the timetable Simon. [speaker001:] [cough] [Pete:] If the first two weren't very good, and we've got a copy of the timetable [John:] We could we could deduce them if they don't own up. [Dave:] I dunno. It's just I imagine it was Derwent, I mean [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [sceptical noises] It mightn't have been Derwent. [Pete:] Yeah, well like please do take this seriously because it's, it's quite important as regards to insurance and having... As Vanbrugh proved last weekend,y we can do a good job with your stuff put together, and if like someone got fried, then you may end up in trouble. [speaker001:] And they wouldn't be happy. personal. [Pete:] The electrical man from... Langwith. Stevie cos he tried to fry himself the other week [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] If you're, you're plugging in and it sparks, [speaker001:] four way adaptor. [Pete:] don't touch it.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right, so I just feel I'd read that out, so please try and work with the admin, cos we don't want to upset them. Cos it's a pain. [Chris:] I imagine so. [Pete:] Right. Er number three I had a phone call, oh I forgot the term planner. Never mind. [John:] I have seen it though, it should be good. [Pete:] I had a phone call last... er yeah Tu Monday night from Warwick University who were organizing a conference at the Youth Hostel Association in York. Friday, Saturday and Sunday, week nine. They're like, obviously that's like the first weekend of the holidays, and they wanted to book the P A and some stage blocks. And I suggested charging them like sixty pounds for the three nights. Because with it being [John:] What, per night? [Pete:] Well, he was on a, aye he was going on oh how I hate [Thomas:] what a band. [Pete:] Never mind about the Hank Wangford Band. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Er but I said I couldn't give him a definite quote for a price, because I wouldn't have the Committee. Now... normally like three nights would be a sort of [speaker001:] Off campus. [Pete:] Off campus. We'll be getting two hundred [speaker001:] Two hundred quid. [Pete:] pound. [speaker001:] Plus [John:] Is this the full P A though or is it just the speaking P A? [Pete:] He wants the speaking P A and stage blocks. [speaker001:] Oh that's it. [Pete:] So I think about a hundred and fifty pounds [John:] Right. [Pete:] for the er Can like th the late arrivals make sure you put your names on [Thomas:] Yeah, I've got my name down. Sorry, I only just woke up. [speaker001:] Both. Both. [Pete:] Did you sign both? [Thomas:] Yeah. [Pete:] Okay. woman might want to slap her name down. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] So... with it being another student union and it being like a conference in aid of the homeless and that, I didn't really want to sort of give them a load of grief so I suggested about sixty pounds. Er does anyone have any comments on this, with it being money for Ents in general? [speaker001:] Well, it's money we wouldn't get otherwise isn't it? [Pete:] It's money you wouldn't get cos it's in the sort of holidays. [John:] Erm are they going to pick it up and set it up [Andy:] Does it involve us doing anything? [Pete:] No, no. Er well Tony's going to deliver it and pick it up on the Monday. [Dave:] Oh that's all right. [Pete:] And I said he'd have to pay extra for the minibus hire. T to shift the gear, cos he wants a couple [speaker001:] [cough] [Thomas:] And obviously, they'll have to still give the deposit. [Pete:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. But [Pete:] he's still not sure. When he, but then he said, like he said is there anywhere else where he could get a stage from and I explained to him that people come and hire the stage off us like Saint Michael-le-Belfry church, who are paying in cash. So I don't know I just think it's an extra little booking that we shouldn't really turn down cos it's money we wouldn't normally get. [Andy:] Warwick University's really nice. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] I've been there. It's great. [speaker001:] But it's not in Warwick though is it? It's south of it. The the booking isn't in Warwick is it? No. [LAUGHTER] No. in York.... [Pete:] Right er... number four er the National Entertainments Conference organized by the N U S. I have since secured some money from Executive Committee to send two representatives to this Committee, and it's in the last week of the summer holidays. I was sort of hoping any other people who were interested in standing for re-election might have came along to this Committee to show their [John:] Support. [Pete:] support, and interest in entertainments, but obviously they've not turned up. [speaker001:] Ah Mm mm. [Pete:] Interesting. [speaker001:] Mm. [Pete:] Er so it's at the remit of this Committee to decide who can go to the conference. Er Exec was saying it was probably me and somebody else or would the Committee like to wait and see who's elected tomorrow, and then decide next week?... Like cos they said it's up to the Committee as a whole.... [Andy:] Is that not at the same time as Glastonbury and all that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh wow. [Dave:] Gla Glastonbury's the first week. [Pete:] I'll tell you the dates of it. It's er it's in the Easter holiday. [Dave:] How are you getting down? [Pete:] The sixteenth of [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] between the sixteenth to the eighteenth of April. [speaker001:] Eh? Oh. Fair enough. [Dave:] When's Glastonbury this year? [Andy:] June. [speaker001:] Er it's the twenty sixth of June. [Dave:] Yeah it seems a bit early though. [Pete:] Yeah so... do you want to sort of make a decision now, or wait till next week or [speaker001:] Where is it? [Pete:] It's in Oxford Brookes University, which is probably Oxford Poly [John:] It used to be Oxford Poly, yeah. I know someone who went there. [Pete:] Fifty pounds plus VAT plus travelling and then you sort of tick in er various boxes if you're a vegan or er... [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] whatever at the moment. [Thomas:] Well [Pete:] Sort it out then. [Thomas:] if you're a vegan really. [speaker001:] What is it? What do you do? [Pete:] I don't know, I've never been to one before. But it's like basically a conference where all the record company reps and that turn up and try to get bookings for their bands. [speaker001:] Isn't that about the P A as well? [Pete:] No, that's a different thing. [speaker001:] No, that's not. Could erm Aha. [Dave:] Reaction's over. [Pete:] Julia's reaction's now been completed. It's finished, yeah. [John:] Excellent. [speaker001:] You've got to [Pete:] I don't know if it's excellent but [speaker001:] Ah. You've got to sign a thingy. [Pete:] You've got two things to sign Julia cos we're being ethnographically studied.... Right so has anybody got any sort of strong opinions about who should go? Or [Thomas:] Who wants to go? [Pete:] Well I said I would go, but I might have been like un-elected [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Deposed. [Pete:] tomorrow. In which case I won't have a [Dave:] Leg to stand on. [Pete:] post on this Committee. Except Tony says I can return to being Security manager. [speaker001:] Yeah. Quite correctly [Pete:] You haven't done it! [speaker001:] I've had nothing to do! And I've done it very well. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Ah sure. [Pete:] Right, I'll sort Nobody's got a sort of decision on [speaker006:] Oh is it? [Pete:] that? [speaker001:] Look do w [Pete:] Right. [Thomas:] Does anyone want to go? [Pete:] Does anybody like, do you want to go? [Dave:] Want a free weekend out?... [speaker001:] In Oxford. In Oxford. Yeah, well [Pete:] ... Right, well, me and Andy will go then. That'll be a laugh. [Andy:] No, I'm busy. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] I'm washing my hair, me hair. [Dave:] Yeah, but will you get to meet all high-flyer record company executives. [Pete:] Yeah you're bound t you're bound to get on the telly then, man. [Dave:] It'll help your quest for stardom. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Andy:] a bit odd though, it's a bit pointless, as [speaker001:] Look [Andy:] I'm not going to be here next year. [speaker001:] Barry White might be there. [Pete:] Never mind about Barry White. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right, number, we'll come back to that next week, number five the post van. On my way back from Ents Committee last week, erm the internal mail bloke was delivering some gear to computer services, and he left the back of the post van open. And there was a stage board in the back... and when I said, what's that doing in there? He said oh we use them as ramps. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] heavy gear. And I'm a bit distressed at this, cos they're not designed for [Becky:] That's ten quid a time isn't it? [John:] Aye I think we [speaker001:] Ten quid a day. [John:] I think we ought to er [Pete:] And [John:] write to them [Pete:] there was a lot of trouble early on this term when people couldn't find stage boards, and like they were all missing and it turns out that they're like the [speaker001:] The university [Pete:] have claimed one. [John:] At least one. [Pete:] At least one. [Andy:] Well, probably one for each van. [Pete:] But like probably one for each van yeah. So, there are, does this Committee think that I should like write them a letter saying [John:] Definitely. [Pete:] either we want like a lot of money, [speaker001:] No, I think we want Yeah. a lot of money. [Becky:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Tell them that we want we wanna be paid for them, and erm all we want [Pete:] Yeah, every day is ten pounds a day sort of thing. [John:] Yeah and, and [speaker001:] Back pay. [John:] and we either want them back or we want, or we want money to buy some new ones in addition. [Pete:] Yeah, because the ones that we've did cost like I think it was [Thomas:] Eight hundred [Pete:] ei [Thomas:] pounds. [Pete:] e eight hundred pounds for twelve, so that's seventy pounds each. [speaker001:] Sheesh [Becky:] That's loads. [Thomas:] They were a lot of money. [Pete:] So [Becky:] They look really crap as well. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Pete:] You can either stand on them, or look very stupid on the stage. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] So, right, well I shall write to them, and tell them that it's very naughty. Cos I [John:] I am not ha not amused. [Pete:] Okay. [Thomas:] They should send a representative to Committee for grilling. [speaker001:] Aye. [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Head, head of postmen? [Pete:] Head of internal mail... [speaker001:] [cough] [Pete:] come. Right, any other business. Has anybody got any [speaker001:] Well [Pete:] other business? [speaker001:] bookings. We got bookings. [Pete:] Well I haven't done bookings. But I'll, I'll put that into. Right Ah, Julia's got something that's quite important, that's annoying her, about Derwent dining hall. Which, which oh, that bit. Erm [Dave:] Derwent? [Pete:] Give us, give us the tale Julia. Okay, the, the tale is that in January I booked Derwent dining hall for a barn dance next week and got a phone call yesterday but I wasn't there and she rang back this morning, said [mimicking] oh I'm very sorry, I'm very sorry, but you can't have it, I'm very sorry []. On and on. So I said you know we've got P and P out, we've started selling tickets. Erm we haven't bothered to book a stage because Derwent has one, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And then later on, oh and then she was going to see room bookings and try to find me another dining hall cos I said it's pretty late notice, and she said [mimicking] oh no, it's a week [] and I thought well I had booked it two months ago. [speaker001:] well, it's a week for both of you. Not just a week for you. [Pete:] Well that's it. What she'd had was a double-booking, effectively, cos she'd had this dinner which was meant to be in the private dining hall, but the numbers had suddenly shot up, and because they'd said originally they wanted either the private dining hall or the main dining hall depending on numbers, she should have really booked them both and decided later and told me to like try somewhere else, but she didn't, she told me yeah the dining hall's free. Off you go sort of thing. Erm... but then she rang back later, I don't know whether she contacted room bookings to try and get me a dining hall, but she said they might be able to have their dinner in the S C R. So that's alright, I'm okay. If not has any one booked the [LAUGHTER] [] for next Wednesday night? I don't want to book them now, but I'd just like to know.... [John:] I don't think so, no. [Pete:] Right, I'll leave it for now. [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] Can I just say, this has shades of the Kingmaker fiasco? [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. Yes, it's like just walk all over the students again. [Dave:] Erm [speaker001:] For, for like [Pete:] It's her mistake, it's not the fault of the other people not booking, cos they had said they might want the main dining hall. [Dave:] No but they're still giving, yeah but the priority [speaker001:] But it's [Dave:] and, yeah. [Pete:] Yeah. For tho for those that, for those that missed that er, last year Alcuin J C R booked Kingmaker as part of their massive big mega-media global world tour. And then a fortnight before the end of the, the summer holidays they were told they couldn't have the dining hall because the day after the Freemasons were having their [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [John:] That was the day after. [Pete:] And it wasn't even the same day, but the day after, and as a result, er a man called John, [Thomas:] Who we don't like. [Pete:] Who we don't like. Er [Thomas:] And who's descended from the. [Pete:] Is he? [Becky:] Gosh. [Pete:] ? [Thomas:] Yeah. [Pete:] Oh there you are. Yeah, anyway, he comes That's amazing. from Gladstone and Gannon, and er he gave an awful lot of people at the S U and at Alcuin J C R a lot of grief over the provost, who then wrote them a letter saying I, Jim am the fault of all this and just generally made the students look even dafter for [speaker001:] As though they just couldn't organize. [Pete:] They just couldn't organize anything and as a result that's why we'll probably never get Kingmaker or the Ned's Atomic Dustbin. [John:] Or anybody else from Gladstone and Gannon. [Pete:] Anyone else from Gladstone and Gannon. So [speaker006:] We don't need them. [Pete:] There's not a lot we can actually do. Apart from, did you get your room booking form back? Yeah, I've had it confirmed by room bookings. Oh, I'll have to see wh she's going to ring me this afternoon and say whether they can do it in the S C R. I'm gonna try and persuade her that they can, because there are only forty people at this dinner and they'll look stupid in the middle of the dining hall. [speaker001:] Mm. [Pete:] We could dance round them, there'd be enough space, you know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Well offer the, offer the forty people reduced tickets for the barn dance. But it's the way she's saying oh I'm so sorry but I have to go back on it when she's agreed to something. [speaker001:] write a letter or not? [John:] Well I think it's been done that's the problem. [Pete:] Yeah, well Well, I'll write a letter obviously if she doesn't [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] sort it out. If she sorts it out today then [speaker001:] If, if, if, if it turns out that, yeah. [Pete:] The point is that as far as room bookings are concerned... Yeah, she may not have sent it through to You're, you're in the clear. room bookings, the first one. She probably just booked them Yeah, this is, this is the problem. the private dining hall assuming their numbers would be quite low. So it may not be a problem with room bookings it's probably a problem with Jo. [speaker001:] Mhm. Yeah. [Pete:] Had problems with [LAUGHTER] her before []. [John:] It's just the principle of the thing that a booking's a booking, whoever [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] Yeah. [Dave:] whoever might have done it. [John:] If you've booked it, then you should get it, I mean just because it's next [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] doesn't mean it should get priority. [Pete:] Yeah, well she was going on about bringing lots of money into the college but she might have to pay two hundred and twenty quid for a barn dance band if she's not careful. [Andy:] Yeah, well I think that she, yeah, they would be liable for that. [Pete:] Didn't I mean the same, same sort of thing happened when Wentworth put on the twenty fifth of May, that a week before Sheila said er oh you're not having this. And that's it and the contracts had been signed and everything and it was... [speaker001:] Ha. [Pete:] most painful and dangerous. And I know it's worthless. [speaker001:] Yeah. Ow. [Pete:] Right so [speaker001:] You stood on my toe then. [Pete:] you have our full support, I'm sure. Right, anybody got any bookings? [speaker006:] Oh I've got some any other business. Erm [Pete:] Oh alright [speaker006:] Could we have it minuted that erm Derwent get a couple of P A hires free from. [speaker001:] Okay, yeah. [Pete:] Ah well we'll discuss this. [Thomas:] This will come up in any other business. [Pete:] We'll discuss this. Right. I believe on Saturday, you hired the S U P A? [speaker006:] We did. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] And it was late? [speaker001:] Very late.... [Pete:] How late? [Andy:] It was er, it was er [speaker006:] Two hours late. [Andy:] No it wasn't two hours late [speaker006:] It was. [John:] It was an hou [speaker006:] Cos [John:] it was an hour late, which it was late enough for us to not to know if it was coming, so we had to go and get another P A, otherwise we'd have gone to get, there was no other option. We waited [speaker006:] Because the band were supposed to be soundchecking at six. [Pete:] What, what time did the band arrive? [John:] They pick the comedians arrived at six o'clock. [Pete:] Right. What, if the comedians had have been an hour late, would you have booked [Andy:] Another comedian? [Pete:] Some another comedian? [speaker006:] That's ridiculous really, isn't it? [Andy:] Answer the question. [Pete:] No it's not. It's a serious question. If the comedians had been an hour late, would you have booked another comedian? [speaker006:] The point is, that the S [Pete:] No, I'm [speaker006:] the point is [Pete:] Please answer this question. [Andy:] No, no just, just please answer the question. Don't get all. [speaker001:] Come on. [speaker006:] the point of view that the P A was booked for four thirty, so that we could set it up [speaker001:] Pete, that's not the point. That's not the point. [speaker006:] for six, so that they could soundcheck. [John:] Yeah,s s surely the, the point is, we'd have booked another comedian if it had been possible to book another comedian at that time, which it obviously wasn't. But it was obviously possible to book another P A. I mean that's [Andy:] But [John:] why your question's irrelevant. [Andy:] Just, just let me mention that you, you told me that you'd gone to Y S L, [John:] Yeah. [Andy:] and you were there for half past five. [John:] We left here at half past five. [Andy:] No, you said you were there for half past five, because you had to get there before half past five in order to book it. [John:] We had, we had to get there before six, when they shut, we had to go at half past five,. [Andy:] Well I was told you had to get there before half past five. [John:] No. No. We left here at half past five. An hour after we were supposed to meet you.... Is that, is that don't want to cause any hassle, but you know [Pete:] Can't I like cut the baby in half? [John:] what I mean? [Pete:] Well I wasn't there so I don't know. [Thomas:] How much how much did it cost you to hire the one [speaker006:] Hundred and fifty. [John:] Hundred and fifty pounds. [speaker006:] Plus also. [speaker001:] No loads more.... [Pete:] So you spent a hundred pounds more? [John:] Yeah. Than we would have done.... [Pete:] I hate having to make these sort of decisions. [Dave:] Well I think we should vote. [Becky:] I think we should give them two [John:] I think we should get our [Becky:] free yeah. [John:] two free goes. [Becky:] Free goes on the P A. [speaker001:] That's not.... [Andy:] It's, but then you see that's not just a question of two free goes, it's all well and good for you to say [John:] Yeah. [Andy:] two free goes, but this involves two nights by John. [speaker001:] Yeah. Two nights [Andy:] Two nights out of John's like busy project [speaker001:] Yeah. [Andy:] time. You've got to bear this in mind. It's not as simple as you can have the P A, because you need someone to set it up. [speaker001:] Well give them the hundred quid then. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I know [] [Andy:] But we haven't got a hundred pounds to give them. [speaker001:] Yeah we haven't got any money. Yeah, [Andy:] I mean we could we could give you the P A for the bop, which would be, you know, doesn't involve as much effort. [John:] What, yeah, what I would suggest is that if you have some existing bookings, then, if you have two existing bookings then you just have those, you just you, you, you don't pay for those. [Pete:] For like next week? [John:] Do y do you have a, you have a booking for the erm barbecue now? For the P A? [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] You do, it's in my diary. Is it? Erm well erm, guess so. Did you do that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] You definitely booked it. If it's in the book. [speaker001:] I may have done it. [John:] I don't put these things in automatically, [speaker001:] Erm [speaker006:] We're going to have a week three event possibly as well. [John:] C could we erm get back to you on that one and talk to. [Pete:] Well just, just find yourself a c couple of bookings, and we'll sort. [speaker001:] two. [John:] Two bookings. [speaker006:] Two bookings,. [Pete:] But it was an accident, I mean [speaker006:] Yeah I realize that but the thing is if we'd had a phone call to say look, we're going to be this late, [Pete:] Yeah, well I wasn't [speaker006:] then we'd have been alright. [Pete:] I wasn't there, so I don't know. [Becky:] Something that if ever, ever sorted out the bleeper hopefully in future I'll be on bleeper, and then if that sort of thing happens bleep me [speaker001:] But it'll still, yeah [Andy:] Yes I mean fundamental point. The porters do not have a key to the cupboard. That is [speaker001:] I mean [Andy:] that is against the law, because they have to have access to that cupboard in case there is a fire. [John:] I think that's where the principle is, cos if we, if we [Andy:] That's where the real problem lies, if you could have had the P A, if you could have gone into the cupboard and got it, even though we'd turned up at ten past six, [John:] There wouldn't have been a problem. [speaker006:] Yes. [Andy:] there wouldn't have been a problem. Because you could have put it in approximately the right places in the room, and we could have come along and we could have been running, [John:] wired it up. [Andy:] so erm for seven o'clock. [John:] Yeah yeah, we could have had it going in twenty minutes. [speaker001:] Still a lot of hass though, cos they don't know if you've just completely Yeah. forgotten about it. [speaker006:] Yeah, that's. [Pete:] Well no I mean [speaker006:] we di couldn't contact any [speaker001:] We have I mean [Pete:] I see, I see your worry factor here. [John:] But if you, if you could have got the stuff over there, it would have been a lot simpler. [Becky:] The thing is, the thing is, the thing is I can see where everyone's coming from, but it's, it's thinking about it in the future, [Andy:] Well I do think that the porters ha should have a key. And I think they sh be [Becky:] But the porters have also got the problem that they don't want to let just anyone [Andy:] No, well what I was about to say was that you could, you could give them... then if we know it's going to be certain people, we can give them names. I mean you know the, if you give the porters a form, they'll [Becky:] Mm. [Andy:] give you a key for the minibus. [Becky:] Yeah. [Andy:] Now if you give the porters a form for a P A, [Becky:] Mm. [Andy:] they'll give you a key to the P A cupboard. I mean, you know, [Becky:] you might find [Andy:] I mean I can take a form up to the porters in Goodricke and they'll give me a key to a minibus. [speaker001:] Would that actually have solved anything, because if you hadn't turned up, they'd have still been without a P A. [Andy:] Well we're not saying that we wouldn't have turned up it's just that we were unable to turn up. [John:] But we didn't know. [speaker001:] Yes [Andy:] No, I know that I know that. But, I mean [speaker006:] So that's all we're saying that. [Andy:] It wasn't just us though, there's Rich as well you see. I mean [speaker006:] Yeah but if you'd have phoned us, then we would [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] have known you'd have been late, and we wouldn't have panicked. [Andy:] Yeah, but at that time we were s trying to speed back to York [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] breaking all known records. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think I think [Andy:] I actually did it in record time. [speaker001:] Yeah. And I fell asleep. [Andy:] And he fell asleep. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] went into a warp factor, just like on Star Trek. [Pete:] Come on, settle down. Settle down, okay? [Chris:] Right, why don't we erm... give Derwent two free bookings, you know bookings that have already happened or are about to happen for free, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Chris:] erm explore the key [speaker001:] off the slate that you [Chris:] explore the key issue with the porter, and erm, hopefully get the bleeper [LAUGHTER] sorted out or something [], so that there's some system for shaking things up. come down to a room and demand [Andy:] The absolute the absolute fundamental problem is thes thes is that there's not [speaker001:] There's not enough people running, the running the P A. There aren't enough people who know how to do that. [Andy:] I mean like John's out just about [John:] I'm out every night this week. [Andy:] every night this week. In fact I'm out twice tonight. So you know, it's not a fun job, really. You know, if you ne if you're busy every night and you're a third year student trying to do projects, it's [Becky:] Can you not train anybody else up? [speaker001:] Well, I've said I'll get trained up, Yeah, well I mean I've, I've got to finish off this term's work [Andy:] You see there's peo the people have got commitments and they're not wanting to take them on. And then there's other people that can do it, but, you know, people only come for like every couple [speaker001:] Yeah. [Andy:] of times and it you need to be out there [John:] And there are [Andy:] a lot to [John:] there's possibly [Andy:] learn how to do it. [John:] five or six other people on campus who could potentially do it with a just one night's look an and a diagram. Just that they, they're not willing to do it for nothing, and it's going to cost you twenty pounds a time on top of the P A hire. [Andy:] You know, when you get paid twenty pounds a night for driving the minibus, and you get paid nothing for running the P A, and it takes equally long if not, if not longer [speaker006:] Perhaps we should look into something. [Andy:] and then you only get paid, well the P A gets forty quid. Well people don't want to pay sixty quid for a P A, cos [speaker006:] Mm. [Andy:] it's getting expensive then. [Becky:] Why don't you ask one of the equipment reps if [Andy:] They can't. [Pete:] It's already been proved that they can't [speaker001:] Yeah, I mean [Pete:] in writing now. [John:] I mean it isn't an easy thing to set up. [speaker006:] Yeah, yeah, I understand [John:] But potentially you, you can make a right mess. But I'm not saying that people are incompetent, but it takes a certain amount [Andy:] We want to be convinced. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [Pete:] Right. [speaker001:] Prove yourselves. [Pete:] Okay, we'll, we're digressing. We'll look into this. Right, er riot woman, or whatever you wish to be called. Girl,. [speaker001:] Grrr. to ask for some money for Monday's bop, cos we lost about forty quid. I mean, we heard that if we'd come here before, you might have given us money, and we wondered if we could have it in retrospect. What? [LAUGHTER] Pardon []? [LAUGHTER] There was a bop on Monday, [Becky:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and we lost about forty quid. And we [Becky:] Yeah. [speaker001:] wondered if we could get some money from the Students [Becky:] What, this, this is a bop put on by what was it, A F A M S was it? [speaker001:] No it was just it was just us. And the money was g gone missing. [Becky:] What us, though? Just a group of people? [speaker001:] Riot Girl. It's not erm any society or anything it just. [Becky:] Right. I don't think you'll any money out of the Student Union. [speaker001:] Sorry? [Becky:] I really don't think you'll get any money out the Student Union, and you won't get any money out of Ents, because Ents is bankrupt. [LAUGHTER] To put it bluntly, any money. [Andy:] If you're a society you might get, you know, [Becky:] You should [Andy:] Societies grant. [speaker001:] we're not a society yet, so I mean thinking about that, we have tried to become a society before. [Andy:] I think [John:] For a start we haven't any money. But er [Andy:] just to try to be a so try to become a society, and then make, make it clear you do have a debt. [speaker001:] Mhm. What and I mean Rave Soc get away with it all the time. [Becky:] It's just if you come Finance Committee [speaker001:] Oh we know about that, problems like being, so do you think we can become a society with a debt? [Becky:] You can become a society [John:] Yeah, and because you can then use your erm what's it? [speaker001:] M R G. [John:] M R G to try and pay off some the debt, [speaker001:] If such a thing ex I don't know [John:] [LAUGHTER] If you can manage to get [] an M R G. [Chris:] Yeah, one potential problem with that is that Finance Committee have allocated all the society grant [speaker001:] Mm. [Chris:] money. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Lot of money. Yeah. [Pete:] Yeah. Well, now the thing is, right what I've thought might be like a good thing, er... cos we all like entertainments, is like if Riot Girl were to become a society, [speaker001:] Well we're trying to. [Pete:] Yeah. And everyone round this table could like join. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] That would cost you a pound and that would give you some cash, and it would also look good, and what is it a pound fifty you've got to pay? And I'm quite sure everyone would like pay a pound fifty to join this nice society, [Andy:] And become like riot girls. [Pete:] bops. And could get [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] into bops free. And that would give you a bit of ready cash, and also it would give you a standing to try and get something from Finance Committee. [John:] You see I mean you, basically you need to get a lot of people I know there's no money in Finance Committee at the moment but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I'm sure that could be rectified... ultimately. [speaker001:] [cough] [Becky:] I think you've come to really the wrong committee to try [LAUGHTER] and get money []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] You've come to the wrong committee to try and get like a cash handout, but er... we do appreciate the problems of putting on entertainments, and bops on campus. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] In a big way. A four figure way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Probably more, probably more so than any oth anybody else on campus, yeah. [Pete:] But I think it would be very nice if everybody joined Riot Girl, just to show sort of affiliation of events on campus. So I think we should put that to a vote. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. Having been down the pub, I ain't voting.... Yeah. That was a yes. For what? For joining Riot Girl. Everyone? [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] I believe in freedom of speech, fucking off for Ents, I'm sure. All those? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] One two three four. All those against?... [Chris:] Oh. [speaker001:] Ooh. [LAUGHTER] It was carried. [LAUGHTER] [Thomas:] Yeah, get it in. right... [speaker001:] Can I please? [LAUGHTER] Yes,. [Pete:] You get a societies pack, and have to fill all these names in. [speaker001:] Well we could [Pete:] Yeah well [speaker001:] get a photocopy of one of these lists, and be alright. [Andy:] Yeah get a photocopy of this. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Hang on.? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] It's about. [Pete:] Right. You can vote. [speaker001:] I'll bring it back. [Chris:] I'm not on the Committee. [Pete:] Doesn't matter, still in the room. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] stand in for any Committee member, if you [Chris:] Oh that's true, that's true. [speaker001:] You could be standing I can think of several. [LAUGHTER] Ooh. [Pete:] Right, is there any more bookings? [speaker001:] Yeah. Goodricke. Can we book the P A every Monday that's free next term? Every Monday? [LAUGHTER] Every Monday Until the quiet period. Oh God. Yeah, until the quiet period. [Dave:] Ah, they're taking over Alcuin's bop night. [Andy:] When, when, when is it free next term, when is the P A free next term? [Pete:] I've made a new term planner actually but I've forgotten to bring it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's never free, it always costs you [Pete:] Ah! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Er well, shortly after Alcuin decide Mondays is a dead loss and [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Alcuin's really good for one thing. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] ... would do. One two three nine. [LAUGHTER] Can we leave it [Pete:] No. [speaker001:] because we. [Pete:] M and Monday's the last day. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I know, that's [John:] You can only have weeks one two and three. [speaker001:] Weeks one two and three? What dates is week three? Erm Three week [Pete:] Twenty twenty six, three and ten. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Why can't they have week four I thought? [John:] Because quiet period starts [speaker001:] After Tuesday. I suppose you could have it on Monday Well yeah, you could have it on [Becky:] You'll get the last bop. [Andy:] Last bop before the quiet period. [speaker001:] Yeah. Whoo, very exciting Yes? Okay. [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right, any more booking [speaker001:] [cough] Is the P A free Thursday week? [cough] [Pete:] Week? [speaker001:] Thursday week two. [Pete:] Oh. [speaker001:] It might be out all [John:] Thursday week two.... Er, yeah. [speaker001:] Er well could we have the P A and lights, we might be having an event that day so [John:] What? [speaker001:] I'll let you know obviously. [John:] Right, Vanbrugh yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah. I'll bring them up later on. [door knock] Come in Hello. [Thomas:] Is this Ents Committee? [speaker001:] Certainly is. [Thomas:] Right. [speaker001:] So? [Thomas:] Erm, [Pete:] Well you'll have to wait, we're busy now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Come in and join us. Join the festivities. Right, so your event week two? [speaker001:] Yes. Mhm. Right [Andy:] Is that like just a bop or is it [speaker001:] people, and bands on campus, campus bands. Okay. [John:] And you're J C R? [speaker001:] Yeah.... Yeah, er when's the P A free in freshers' week next year? [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] No comment. [speaker001:] All week. [Pete:] That will be left to the next entertainments secretary. [John:] Er diary doesn't go that far. [speaker001:] Oh, okay then. [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Yeah. [John:] No concern of mine either. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Well it will, because I'm, I'm taking it with me when I leave, I'm sorry. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right then,. [Andy:] Right, okay. Can we just get it clear, has Goodricke bop now changed to Monday, or is this not a permanent? [speaker001:] Well as long as we [LAUGHTER] can't get it on a Tuesday []. [LAUGHTER] Cos we've got it. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]... Yeah. Never worked for Alcuin. [Pete:] some crackers. [speaker001:] Shut up. [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Anybody else? [Thomas:] Yeah, erm we've, the Amnesty's booked the P A for week three, Friday week three. [speaker001:] For the jazz thing? [Thomas:] For the jazz concert. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Thomas:] Erm, last year, we were given it for free, erm [John:] Right, I remember, yeah. [Thomas:] and someone and we've now been told that we have to pay for it, and I [Pete:] Yeah, I, I organized a cut price deal for Amnesty. [Thomas:] Right, can we organize next year? [Pete:] Well, that was for it, wasn't it? [speaker001:] That was [cough] [Pete:] There was only booking Amnesty? [speaker001:] Mhm. There was I think last year's and there was this year's. [Becky:] And this year we're doing it for about half price or something. [Pete:] I knocked, yeah, I knocked about twenty pounds off. [speaker001:] It's already done. How much erm sorry I didn't [John:] Amnesty have already had a free booking. [Pete:] They've had a [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] free booking? [John:] Well, a cheap [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] booking. [Pete:] I gave them a... was it this term? [Thomas:] They have had a free booking. [speaker001:] Wasn't the Alcuin bop was it? No no. That, that was someone else. It was er [Pete:] No, I'm sure that that was, I'm sure that's the one mean, week three next term. [Thomas:] they came and they said we had a free booking. [Pete:] We said we wouldn't charge them for the stage blocks. [Thomas:] And we gave them [Pete:] Cos they wanted the blocks and the boards. [speaker001:] Right. [Pete:] And I said thirty five [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pete:] pounds instead of fifty five. [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [Thomas:] Do you know what the arrangement was last time, because I think we got it all for free? [Pete:] No, that was last year. [speaker001:] Yeah, but that was then [John:] The arrangement was a fit of generosity. we didn't have many bookings, [speaker001:] Right. [John:] er, and we weren't very busy, so it wasn't such a fag. Er [speaker001:] Thank you. You you your just the same as the I know I didn't realize did I? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Don't make me take two []. [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Well, maybe they have, is that what you want, I mean I'm not I mean [speaker001:] Er [Pete:] what're you after? [Chris:] You can always seek financial help from the Executive because they can give money out campaigns selective. Well, no, you can ask them. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Thomas:] But what you are saying is you're not going to give it for free? [Andy:] That's correct. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] What we're saying is we're giving you it for half price. [Becky:] Ents won't, Ents, Ents won't give it for [Pete:] Or you can pay full price somewhere else. [Becky:] free because they're too [speaker001:] Mhm. [Becky:] bust [speaker001:] Like a hundred and fifty pounds.... [Becky:] But if you go and ask Executive, they might give you money, cos they're kinder in there. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] They've got money more solvent than us. [Andy:] They're richer than us. [John:] We've got a big hole to fill, and it's getting filled in forty pound lumps at the moment.... [Pete:] Right.. Okay. Is there any... any other business?... Right well now, the secret bit, this happens to be John's birthday, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] and I've got a cake. [speaker001:] Great. [Andy:] the candles [John:] Er just wait, just wait, it'll all come good. Ah look, she's back. [speaker010:] Here you go. Is this, I mean is this real, will these people really join? [Chris:] I will. [speaker001:] I will. They're all here, and they didn't vote. [speaker010:] Well, there's a problem that men might not be allowed to join anyway because. [speaker001:] Ooh! [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Can't do that! [speaker001:] No you can't. [Dave:] There's no way you can affiliate to the er the Student Union if you don't let men join. [speaker001:] You can't be a un you can't be you can't be a society. [speaker010:] Well, Women's Group get special [speaker001:] I want to join. [speaker010:] erm [speaker001:] they already get special dispensation. [Becky:] have to go to Executive Committee to discuss that.. [speaker001:] Well again it's [John:] I don't think it's allowed. [speaker001:] I think you should [John:] I don't think they'd ever let a men's committee [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [John:] a men's society. [speaker001:] There's blokes in Huggy Bear.... I didn't know he was. [LAUGHTER] this is relevant. [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Anyway you're detracting here, the candles are burning down. So I think we should all sing Happy Birthday to John, and it'll be like a really good end to this bloke's tape. [Becky:] It's going to be on the tape! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right, after three. [speaker001:] [singing] Happy Birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear John, Happy birthday to you []. [uproarious applause] Make a wish! [LAUGHTER]... [cheers] [Pete:] Go on, down in one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pete:] Right, that's it. The end. Don't forget to vote for somebody tomorrow in the election. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Somebody. [speaker001:] . Yeah, I'd stay until later as well

[speaker001:] So you're doing trade at the moment in er agricultural economics I think Bob has asked you... to... prepare some data on er wheat and cotton... trade. Before we come on to to look at that, can somebody tell me what's happened to world trade say in the last century, what are the major trends in world trade? Right O K yeah, that's the first thing to note, yeah world trade has increased dramatically... any other features?... what's happened to the composition of world trade? [speaker002:] Manufacturers has had an increase trade [speaker001:] Right O K yeah [clears throat] that's the other major erm... feature is that agriculture's share of world trade [clears throat] has declined and manufacturing... er... share of world trade has increased and I've got some er... some numbers here... [clears throat] erm... so it says [reading] before the first world war agriculture's share of world trade was over fifty percent, today it is less than fourteen percent []... okay, so agriculture's share in world trade is declining and has been declining er essentially over the [clears throat] the last sort of seventy years or so.... [cough] Right, okay any other features about world trade, it's been growing in volume, er, composition has changed,... anything else... how about the prices of agricultural goods?... are there any characteristics?... [speaker002:] as quickly as the manufacture of goods [speaker001:] Right okay yeah the produ there... in actual fact they're, they're relati, yep, you, you're correct in that they... [clears throat] they may well have risen, right, over that period... erm... but relative to manufacturing prices they have fallen... erm... let's just see if there might be some data in there er... erm... I thought I had some. I thought I had some information here on prices... I can't seem to find it... no [sniff]... [sigh] no, can't find it, never,... never mind... I've got some... figures here... that looks at erm... the growth in in trade,... er... it's quoting, it says... [reading] between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine... the volume of agricultural trade grew by twenty six percent... [] alright, [clears throat] [reading] however that was... that represented one third of the growth in manufacturers []... [cough]... so agricultural trade is rising... but it's rising much less rapidly than manufacturers... here are the prices, at the same time, so between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine... er food export prices fell... the prices actually fell... from eleven percent,t, by eleven percent... whereas the unit value of manufactured exports, so essentially the prices of manufactured exports... [clears throat] rose on average by twenty percent... okay... so over the, over that period... agricultural prices were actually falling in real terms but if we widen... erm... s the window... that we're looking at, erm,... agricultural prices probably haven't fallen... er say... over the post war period or... if we er go back to the beginning of the century, agricultural prices probably haven't fallen... erm... but relative to manufacturing they certainly have... okay. So what can account for er... this changing composition... of trade?... Why, for example are... as manufactured trade increasing in importance?.... [speaker002:] Can this be just because er incomes have risen? [speaker001:] tt right, yeah, incomes have risen throughout the world... [clears throat]... and that impacts... both on... the demand for agricultural products and also the demand for manufactured products... but what do we... know about demand elasticities... for those two products, income elasticities... [cough]... what's the income elasticity of manufactured goods?... [clears throat] [speaker002:] Greater than one... less than one. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right... income, income elastic manufactured goods,... as a result... manufactured erm sectors will be growth sectors simply bec, because as income... per capita rises, people spend proportionately more of their increased income on manufactured goods... and as a result... we witness a marked increase... in trade in manufactures. We would only need to witness a marked increase in trade... and there will certainly be an increase in demand... why do you think trade has increased?... and trade isn't a necessary condition... it's just that trade has tended to grow at the same time as... erm... as demand is growing. Why might trade be growing? [speaker002:] Because of transport [speaker001:] Okay, yeah... better transport technology... a hundred and fifty years ago it was impossible t... erm, to transport meat across the Atlantic... it's er, very straightforward now... so the advent of different types of, er, transport technology and improved transport technology... erm, has made tr, facilitated trade... okay. Any other reasons?... The increase in trade in manufactured goods has taken a particular... form of trade. There was intra industry trade, yeah good... so what is intra industry trade? Yep, its as, yeah, the simultaneous import and export... of a similar good, or the good of as, of the same industry. Right so we could think of erm, cars for example erm, you know we both export cars and import cars.... okay Why do you think that intra industry trade has risen, say over the last fifty years?... Then why aren't we self sufficient in car production? [speaker002:] People want more choice unclear [speaker001:] Right That's right. As people get wealthier... right, one of the, they not only demand more goods, but they demand a wider variety of what is essentially... or what can be classified as the same good.... clearly a... Skoda is markly... different from a Jaguar... right, but as far as, er, classifying trade goes, they'll both go under automobiles... right [clears throat]... okay. One of the main reasons why intra industry trade has risen, right, is not only that consumers want to purchase different varieties and different qualities... of the same good... erm... that it, it's very easy to differentiate the product in manufactured goods... right. We've only got to put a go faster stripe... on a Skoda and chan, change the wheels and we've got a different product [sniff] [LAUGHTER] we've got a diff, yes, we've got a fast skip as opposed to a slow one,... alright. So because we can differentiate manufactured products very easily, and because consumers want differentiated products, alright... get increase in demand... for manufactured goods... right. The reason why trade has risen, one reason is because, erm, transport costs have declined in real terms... and secondly w, why... can you think of anything else that may have increased trade in manufac [clears throat] manufactured goods? [Adrian:] Better technology in production. [speaker001:] [sniff] mm [sniff] Okay, so what, what are you er, hitting on about there Adrian? [Adrian:] Better use of machinery and tractor and erm farmers are at risk of I know that manufacturers who could have to progress these capital to get better returns. [speaker001:] That's right, I mean we, we've got decreasing... erm, oh sorry, increasing returns to stay off decreasing costs. [cough] Right now with manufacturing... er in manufacturing, there are economies of scale, huge economies of scale... this is why we find look at cars again... that Toyota plant in Derby... produces all the Toyota Corollas or whatever for the whole world, it's not just for the U K market... alright. So... cars produced in Derby are exported... back to Japan [cough], right cos all the, all the er production of that one car, is focused in one plant, why is that the case? It's because there are economies of scale, alright, now if there are gains to be had from specialisation... right, and consumers want specialised products... and the best thing to do is to, erm, focus production in a single location... right, for lots of different... variants of this product... right. So we see massive car plants... right. Why are they so large, because their economies of scale to be reaped... right... companies are trying to erm, to accrue those economies of scale... right, cos if they don't, they'll go out of business, because their competitors... alright... will produce, erm, a superior or a lower price product... okay. [clears throat] So that's been very important, economies of scale are very important in the... erm, the growth of manufacturing trade, which is essentially an increase in intra,in intra industry trade, as, as opposed to inter industry trade which is... erm... the simultaneous import and export of... er products from different industries like...... produce capital goods, so cars... and in return you will import... erm... food products... but the... majority of the increase in world trade has come from this intra industry... variety. Can I just turn over... let's look at th the other side of that coin, right, because it has... all the explanations... er as to why agriculture, agricultural trade has declined in relative terms... right. Let's just think about [clears throat] well first of all the incoming elasticity argument... right, manufactures greater than one... agriculture less than one... right, that's one reason why agriculture is a declining sector... right, it's also a declining sector in world trade for the same reason... that it has got a low income elasticity... whereas manufacturing had a high income... elasticity... [cough]... now, consumers like variety... in food just as much as they like variety in manufactured goods... alright, but what's the problem with agricultural goods?... they're essentially homogenous alright... wheat is wheat [clears throat] sugar is sugar.... Now although we can differentiate the products... er agricultural products, we can only do that... at the very final stage in processing,... by and large, where there's much less scope after product differentiation... right, at the er the raw material erm level, which is where most agricultural trade continues... er, most trade in agricultural products is in the raw commodity, not the refined commodity... the refining, there might be the processing and the manufacturing, tend to occur in the country of consumption and not in the country of production... a number of complicated, erm political reasons... erm [clears throat]... alright, but the but because there isn't the scope for product differentiation... alright, we haven't witnessed an increase in intra industry trade in agricultural goods whereas we have done... for manufactured goods because there is scope for intra industry trade... er... yeah scope for product differentiation. Okay what about economies of scale?... Are there economies of scale in agriculture?... Are they in to the same extent, or lesser extent than manufacturing? [speaker002:] experience the optimistic small [speaker001:] That's right, I mean why di why have we got the structure of agriculture as we have, you know why [clears throat]... why do we still have an atomistical industry... right, it's not just a, a freak of nature, there are economic laws, erm,... and opinion... that s, that structure the industry and it's because you just don't get economies of scale staying in agriculture. If you did get economies of scale then we wouldn't see... small, erm,... small independent producers... right we, we'd see a, an increase in the concentration of the industry, like we have witnessed in virtually every other sector [speaker002:] Not like the population grows faster than the food so [speaker001:] mhm [speaker002:] the population would demand more manufactures because food can't keep up [speaker001:] Say that again, Marthus [speaker002:] Marthus said that food production cannot keep up with the population increase [speaker001:] Right mhm [speaker002:] And so the population increase would they wouldn't be able to. [speaker001:] That's right, that's what you said in... in you saying that populations were going, growing geometrically agricultural production was going arithmetically, as a result a population crash is inevitable, alright, but we know that isn't true [sniff] right, because what, when Marthus was writing, erm, Marthus was writing just before in the agricultural revolution in the U K so... agricultural technology hadn't improved very much in... sort of five hundred years right, but in the next hundred years [clears throat] agricultural production, erm, or productivity grows far faster than erm,... than population. Marthus didn't actually foresee this erm, this leap in from technology and as a result he was basing his predictions on past trends so if past trends had continued would have been, he w, he would been correct but because erm, agriculturalists started to erm, use technology... and at that time it was a very sort of low technology, but nevertheless it would, would've production dramatically... you know, you don't think of drainage as being particularly high tech but it can [clears throat] increase the, the yield on a crop sort of four or five times and so si simple drainage systems would be introduced... erm... ro rotations were being introduced, again rotations you think of being fairly straightforward but... erm... prior to the agricultural revolution rotations weren't used... rotations can improve the fertility of the soil and er yields as well right [clears throat] okay, so... agriculture produces a homogenous product, by and large and er as there isn't the scope, the product differentiation, and there isn't the scope for specialisation... because we'd need a farm... the size of Europe to feed the world with,w with wheat. Now clearly [sniff] it makes no sense you might be up to [clears throat] producing the Toyota Corollas in a three hundred acre plant, erm, near Derby... right but we can't employ the same techniques in production... er when we're making agricultural why not... well essentially we're using land, we're using land intensively... alright... and there comes a point when, erm you reach dis-economies of scale and start... er accruing dis-economies of scale in agricultural production and that scale of plant is very, very small... but after about... well it depends what type of production... er what type of product you're making but, you know, there aren't many farms over five thousand hectares, now five thousand hectares is a huge farm, it's massive... alright... but it still only produces a fraction of, say U K output... cos there's several million... hectares of erm [someone coughing] but the reason why you don't see these very large farms is that... you just don't reap the economies of scale... alright, because essentially we need land... erm... and you're farm gets so big that it would take you half the day to drive your combine harvester over to the, the other side of th your farm... just to erm, to harvest the, the wheat... right. [Helen:] Hasn't there been a move into much larger farms now? [speaker001:] Oh yes, there ha, I mean there are economies of scale in agriculture, it's just that they're, the scope of them... er, is less than er the scope in manufacturing... so I mean, farms used to be a lot smaller and throughout this century, this last century we've witnessed an increase in farm size... alright, but the... I think the optimal, the optimal farm size... is... erm, I think it's about three hundred hectares... okay, er... erm, with three hundred hectares you'll produce a, a pretty squit proportion of erm total output... but farms used to be... sort of one, two, three, ten hectares in size as we've gone through the farms have amalgamated and increased in size and that's primarily due to economies of scale..., but there are a great deal of economies to be reached, once you've got a combine harvester, once you've got big machinery... alright. You can't really improve your productivity much beyond that.... So if you just look at this... the arguments for... er... manufactured, or the increase in manufacturing... er trade... alright... are exactly the opposite to erm, that explain the decrease in erm, the relative decrease in agricultural trade... okay.... Any other... one other factor that might be important in, er explaining this relative change composition of trade between agriculture and manufacturing?... something that's in the news at the moment... mm yes get us at a much more... er... er effective role in reducing tariffs on manufactured goods than it has on agricultural goods... and it's only in this last round of G A T T talks, the Uruguay round... that agriculture has been brought into the frame... alright.... Prior to erm Uruguay round negotiations, agriculture was always excluded from the negotiations... right, whereas manufactured goods have been in there from the start, and as a result we've seen a reduction in tariffs... right, on manufactured goods... that's not to say that erm, [clears throat] protectionism on manufactured goods has fallen, it has in certain cases but not in all... cases. What's happened is that [cough] [sniff] policy makers 've... shifted the emphasis instead of protecting tariffs... they're protected using long... long tariff barriers... right which are a lot more invisible to er, to G A T T... don't come under... erm... G A T T regulations, what those tariffs do... nevertheless, tariffs have, have come down in manufactured goods... right, erm, since the second world war when G A T T was er, was established. But because agriculture hasn't been in G A T T or up until recently hasn't been in G A T T agricultural protectionism has grown throughout that period... right. Why might protectionism... diminish trade? [Helen:] Increases confidence [speaker001:] Okay,wh what do you mean there Helen? [Helen:] Erm, [speaker001:] Okay so that will inhibit consumption consumption essentially That's right, this is the, this is the effect. Whether ther there's a... there's a t two pronged effect the first of which is that high tariffs... consumption because prices are higher and therefore consumption will fall... and secondly, if high prices are also charged farmers to domestic farmers... right then they'll increase their output. Now if they increase their output... alright... that will displace imports... alright, so protectionism leads to... self sufficiency and by and large self sufficiency is protectionism's raison d'etre, that's why it's there... right it's to increase domestic output of this particular product... [clears throat]. Does anybody know why agriculture wasn't in... erm... the G A T T it's never,t... discussed in the G A T T why it hasn't er included in... like manufacturing is... reason why that is? [Adrian:] Too political [speaker001:] Yes, you're right. What do you, what do you mean by that Adrian? That's right it's a poli politically sensitive erm... er, sort of industry... right not only is there the element of strategic there's a strategic dimension... right which political importance... right, erm and also... er,s an electoral, specifically electoral dimension. There's also this thing which is called agricultural fundamentalism... right and the... most developing c, most developed countries, most of the population... live in urban areas... and the... they see erm... er rural areas as being sort of the backbone of society, sort of the... salt of the earth type of... element in society that although they don't participate in themselves... would like to maintain... right and so even consumers may well be... would not want see erm agriculture... obliterated from er, from their country... right because they like the products that erm... that agriculture produces and they think that... you can of erm... destroying of the agricultural industry would, would pose an unacceptable burden on the fabric of rural society... and as a result are quite happy to see... protectionism... er fo, for that industry. Now whether that's true or not I don't know. I think... erm... the tide is changing to a certain degree er on that point, but agricultural fundamentalism as it's called erm,... tt is quite an important er aspect is political... erm... is political motivation for a support or for protectionism... okay. [cough] Erm... right so because trade in er trade in agricultural goods has fallen, one one of the reason for that is because there's been a lot protectionism on... er agricultural goods... the other side of that coin is that protectionism in manufactured goods has has fallen... okay. Right [clears throat]... why should we be bothered about... protectionism... y'know... why is G A T... so important... presumably there must be gainers as well as losers... from protectionism so... the gainers and the losers... domestic farmers... gainers or losers? [speaker002:] Gainers [speaker001:] Good, they're the gainers.... Domestic consumers... right losers okay... tax payers? [speaker002:] Losers [speaker001:] Yep, losers Sorry Yeah, it depends, yeah it depends wh what type of system of support you actually employ... er some systems of support... burden tax payers other him... er. The general say the tax payers... er also lost... erm... third country exporters? [speaker002:] Losers [speaker001:] Yep they're losers, big losers... erm... third country importers? No they they'll probably benefit in actual fact... right there are som there are... third countries don't all suffer... right... exported third country you will suffer but if you're an importing third country you will benefit... right. Now agricultural... [clears throat]... erm... one of the reasons why agriculture hasn't been included in the G A T T is because... governments... right from all sorts of countries have said hands up why agricultural policy, this is a domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, right there's no international dimension to it... right, you can't... come in here and t tell us that we're... erm disbanding these protectionist measures... right. It's a domestic policy, hands off... right and this was one of the arguments... one of those potent arguments that they've used in the last forty years... right but it's incredibly naive... because any domestic policy will have an international dimension... I remember the about... European Community... right but it wasn't for the operation of the common agricultural policy... countries in the European Community would be net importers of agricultural goods as we were... ten years ago... bec... because er of protectionism we've now increased our self sufficiency to the point where were a net exporter of agricultural goods... what implications has th does that have for international trade?... Well if we're... producing more of our own goods, we are importing... less of somebody elses... alright and if we actually become a net exporter... then... we've... erm closing down the markets... of third country exporters... right so not only do we er consume less of er New Zealand lamb than we might do otherwise, right. Because we're... er a net exporter of lamb... we're also u erm try enter into the, the markets where New Zealand... is er, is exported to Australia... alright. So domestic policies will always have an international dimension to them... alright, there are a large number of beneficiaries and losers erm to this policy er to protectionism... alright. Now just to give you some numbers... erm... on er who gains and who loses... right... erm...... right... for the world as a whole... right, erm... the study conducted by...... right... nineteen eighty nine... I looked at the cost of some benefits from agricultural support alright, in nineteen eighty six to nineteen eighty seven... in just one year [clears throat] one crop year... alright. Now it says on average for, and then essentially we looked at the three main... support of erm... protectionist powers, like the E E C, U S A and Japan... right, and they said that on average... alright... for every one dollar benefit... alright... for every one dollar benefit, one agricultural support,... right it actually costs... right... one one fifty dollars... of the general [clears throat]... statistics in order to give a pounds worth of support to domestic farmers, we... er have to... find one pounds fifty... right.... With any protectionism, right, when you, when you, when you protect something that you're doing, you're... erm, you're introducing a distortion... a distortion in the system which leads to a misallocation of resources... alright. That is effectively we're paying this extra fifty pence... right... resource misallocation... we there is always what's called a dead weight loss... right to intervention, right it's an inefficiency loss or an efficiency loss, due to the fact that we're asking t, in this case farmers, right to using, use resources but farmers aren't the most efficient people in resources but in to erm, high tech computer... companies, alright... and if we gave pounds worth of support to a high tech computer company they would be able to produce more value as a result of that pound er than if we gave one pound to a farmer, simply because... erm... that, sort of the high tech industries are more productive, they're more efficient. Agriculture isn't particularly efficient... economic sense... technically efficient but not efficient. Right, so let's just get back to some numbers... erm [clears throat] looking at the European Community... right, the producer benefits... alright, the European Community... common agricultural policy produces benefits thirty three point three... billion dollars presumably... yes, billion dollars. Thirty three billion dollars of support [clears throat] goes to erm... er European farmers, right. Consumers... a thirty two point six billion dollars... right, this is every year, this is nineteen eighty six, eighty seven... right. So consumers... foot the bill... right, to the extent of thirty two point six billion dollars. Yeah, into consumers... in terms of higher product prices [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] why consumers pay... er in the European Community, it's because we paying them two or three times more for our food than we would do if we purchased it on the world market... erm [clears throat]. However tax payers are also involved... right. Net cost to tax payers is fifteen point six billion, right. Although we do erm get some revenues... from er import tariffs, as agriculture is increased its production and we've become more self sufficient, right, we're importing less, right so we get smaller and smaller tariffs... right and tax payers pay erm... y'know... your V A T for example, where do you think your V A T's going?... Seventy per cent of it is going into farmer's pockets, right, even on goods like m m manufactured goods, we pay V A T on... er manufactured goods and that V A T pays for our contribution to the European Community... and most of that contribution, about seventy per cent of it, goes to farmers... tt erm, right so the next economic costs... to European Community right are fourteen point nine billion... alright that's the size of the dead weight loss... that's the inefficiency... right, of agricultural support... right, losing fifteen billion dollars a year, right, just... going down the er, the Swanny... okay [clears throat]... Just a couple of point just before we er... before we close. [clears throat] What effect does agricultural support have on world prices?... Does it increase world prices? Reduce world prices?... Make them more stable or more volatile? Well t, in general, I mean there are some types of support, er... more susceptible to but in general. [speaker002:] Reduces [speaker001:] Yeah, it reduces world prices, why why does it do that? [speaker002:] Erm... it allows domestic farmers to produce their so they go on to the world market and they've got everybody else these things [speaker001:] That's right. That's right... you know, we as consumers hav, consuming more of our own products, more of our own agricultural products, therefore we're importing less... right. As a result, supply supply is increasing... right in the face of re falling demand, right demand falling off because prices have are high. Simple supply and demand right now but this is the demand who say European Community... as is the supply term... erm what we call excess demand occurred... rest of the world.... [clears throat] Are we slap a tax on, tariff... on there that reduces consumption... right, what with world prices, world prices they used to be here... they're now down here... alright. Effec essentially... supply we we've got over s, over supply and that brings down agricultural prices, erm... and so wor world prices tend to be a lot lower than they would would have been in the absence of support.... Now just to give you... some figures... I mean [flicking through pages] same tariff that's the world price supplied... the rest of the world, in fact the tariff on it... show them that the operation of a a tariff can affect erm world prices... and... just to give you some idea... erm... ah, can we just you know when we were talking about the net economic costs... well they're within the European Community, those costs. We can add also to the fact that fifteen billion dollars a year... right, is lost by er third country exporters, alright so we still add another fifteen on there... per year that is [clears throat] erm... errr oh yes, same study again... erm... suggest that in nineteen eighty six, eighty seven the year they look looking at, over forty percent, right of support to U S farmers, forty percent, nearly half of all support to U S farmers, quote merely offset the losses created by policies of other industrialised countries alright... so nearly half of the support given to farmers in the U S... alright we t to get them to stand still in in er... in numerative terms, right. Because the European Community have been heavily heavily subsidising its farmers... right, they were having in order farmers were too successful, we've had wine lakes, we had erm... er... butter mountains, we had to get rid of that, that was subsidised on the world market, as a result of that world market prices would come down... right... and that induced the agricultural government sorry the er American government to support its agriculture... right and these chaps estimate that nearly half of the support... given to the U S farmers merely offset their losses caused by essentially European Community and Japan subsidising their farmers. Prices are also made a lot more volatile... right simply because the world market becomes a residual market, instead of everybody buying and selling through the world market... right, if virtually everybody becomes self sufficient, the world market becomes a bit of a misnomer... right, there isn't such a thing as a world market in that in that particular case... it it may just be a few very small countries trade on the world market, it becomes very small market and therefore prone to supply erm fluctuations in any one country and as we know, supply fluctuations on inelastic demand causes price volatility. So prices have tend to have fallen on world markets for agricultural goods because of support right, and they've also become a lot more volatile and that, and that is the er the source of the international frustration with erm... the common agricultural policy and this is why we've got agriculture er being introduced into the G A T T. Not only does it impose huge costs on domestic tax payers and consumers, it also in incurs erm... a large cost on third country exporters, right now if you think that most of those countries may well be developing countries and agricultural output is their only source of foreign exchange... erm... then er the policies of the rich countries in the West... are erm... a actively... erm... hindering the development prospects of developing countries... alright and that may not be the desired intention. Okay, thanks very much.

[speaker001:] they're sensitive aren't they [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right before we er [clears throat] kick off the lecture... erm... we'll have a lecture on Wednesday right hopefully we'll finish the course then on Wednesday, we're running over a touch behind [speaker001:] Will that be the last one? [speaker002:] Yes, that will be the last one. We may finish today but I don't think so... erm Now I was talking to your Doctor who was wondering whether... we might want to go out for a few beers at some point going home for Christmas or possibly after the exams [speaker001:] Both [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] so are you all going home fairly sharpish? [speaker001:] Oh yeah tomorrow night [speaker002:] Right... in that case its probably a better idea if we go out after the exams, if you want, I mean, don't you don't have to Yeah [LAUGHTER] right, well in that case erm... we'll put a notice up or something... erm... around the exam period and let you know when we we will go out and we'll try sneak a few beers in after your exams but before the start of the second semester... so erm We'll have to try figure out a time when you're all available. Right Okay, so on Friday we were looking at... erm a model of agricultural supply and response that incorporated... erm, a notion that farmers take some time... er to react to changes in er in prices... erm due to psychological... acquiring fixed factors... and so on and so forth. [clears throat]... Although hypothesis as a useful... er sort of description... of how farmers might erm... adjust... their supply... it's a very simple one... alright. If you recall, we said that the desired... level of output S R T simply... function of last year's prices... alright or more im,... or alternatively... right, you make... erm the planting decisions on the basis... right... of current prices... right, so when that supply comes onto the market in say a years time it's now a crop... right. That supply will be determined by, not current market prices but prices of a year ago when you made the planting decisions... right. Now if you do... recall your first year notes, this is the relationship underlines a cobweb model, right that prices were based on erm... or supply decisions were based on prices at planting... right and we showed you that cobweb model erm... farmers make systematic errors... right cos they never appreciate the cycle there is a cycle to prices, right so they're making systematic errors... right cos prices are high this year... as a result erm erm of plant a lot so that when the supply comes on the market next year right, prices are very low and you would thought farmers would er, would learn... but prices fluctuated... right. So we may want to introduce a more sophisticated... mechanism... for determining what the desired level of supply is... and what we'll do... is that we'll say this is actually a special case of a much more general, er more s sophisticated. Right what we're going to do is to introduce the idea of expectations... right, cos what this equation's really saying... right... is that farmers expect... price prevailing in T minus one... alright... to prevails in S T... right so that's what we're, right, in... their ex their expectation of prices in T, right... are based on er current prices in sort of T minus one... okay and that, that is what we would call erm... expectations... alright. But what we're going to do, that's gonna be a special case in a more general formulation that we're going to look at now... which is the adapted expectation hypothesis.... Right this... basically... it's too simplistic, right we know that farmers are more intelligent than the cobweb model suggests that they are, let's try erm... increase the sophistication of their, their supply response. But we'll do that using adaptive expectations... okay [clears throat]... right. All the adaptive expectations model says... is that farmers supply, right, S T... is some function... of the expected... price... right, erm. When the supply comes onto the market, right so... this thing here... is the expectation of price in P T, when the supply comes onto the market... right and that expectation is formed at T minus one, right so at the beginning of the year... farmers make some... forecast or some expectation of prices when the crop will come onto the market in T, right and then they form that expectation or that prediction, right, at the beginning of the period, or at the end of the last one, T minus one.... [clears throat]... right.... Let's call that equation one seven... er... in actual fact what we'll do is that we'll put a random... random error term on the end as well just to say that this is, rule is not perfect and there will be some fluctuations around it.... Okay [clears throat]... Now expect,... farmer's expectations of prices are assumed to be revised, right, each year, farmers revise their own expectations of future prices so that makes some sense. You wouldn't expect them to... forecast the same price all the years, right.... [clears throat] Now expectations model implies that the revision in expectations, right, year on year... alright, is proportional... right, to the error last year, right, the difference between actual and forecasted last year... right, if they were way out if their forecast was way out... for last year, right, they'll revise their expectations for, for the next year... okay. So [clears throat] symbolically... the expectation at T minus one... prices at T minus the expectation of T minus two... in prices at T minus one... i.e.... revision in expectations or how our expectations change from one year to a next... is dependent upon... gamma... into the actual price, [clears throat] T minus one minus farmer's expectations of it... okay.... So the revision of expectations year on year, alright is some function, alright, proportionate to [cough]... the er, the difference between their forecast for prices of P T minus one... [cough] to track it from what actually occurred... okay. [clears throat]... Now we can just rearrange that... expression to get the expectation... of prices for... the period T, right all we're doing is that we're adding... P T minus two, P T minus one to both sides, alright and we'll get gamma into... P T minus one... erm, plus... open brackets mi minus gamma... into expectation at T minus two... of prices at T minus one... okay. So we're just rearranging... the first expression, okay, and getting this one... right so now we've got er a decision rule to obtain a, farmers... will form their expectation of prices say next year, in T... right, on the basis of last year's price, last year's actual price... and last year's, the expectation of last year's actual price... okay. Right, [sniff]... so as you'll probably agree alright, gamma... scribble here... right, plays an important role in this model and gamma is the co-efficient of expectations, the expectations co-efficient.... Now, [clears throat]... when gamma equals zero then what does this model imply unde under different conditions?, alright. If gamma equals zero... right... what happens here? The expectation for next year's exactly the same as what we expected last year, alright... just turned, propped out... okay. Essentially there are no revisions... no revisions in expectations... if if gamma equals zero... right, this right hand side top here completely disappears and if you wanted t just leave the error turning then then any changes in expectations there's no systematic behaviour. But like I, I omitted... that just for simplicity, right. So when gamma equals zero there's no revision to expectation.... When gamma equals one... what happens now? When gamma equals one... this turn here drops out... alright, so... expected price for next year... exactly the same... as the current price, T minus one... alright. Right.... Scribble that... and poverty is er... that case is called naive expectations... alright. Where gamma equals one we have naive expectations... [clears throat]... so, d'you think that what that implies in the top equation, right the revision to expectations and gamma equals one... is the whole of the difference between actual predicted last year... okay. So... here you have no revision... under naive expectations we have four... right [clears throat]... Now the the closer that our expectations come to gamma, lies to one... the more weight... farmers attach to last years price... relative to prices in T minus two, T minus three, T minus four... [clears throat] right. When gamma equals one... all the weight is given to last year's price... all the weight is given to last year's price... okay... right, so past history, all past history is ignored... apart from the price at T minus one... right and the closer that gamma is our expectations co-efficient, closer gamma is to one, the more weight be attached to last year's price, relative to the previous history of prices... okay [clears throat]... right.... If we play about with this expectations... [clears throat] model... right this is the erm, this describes the expectation of prices in T... it can also use the same as a decision rule... alright to find out what prices would expectation of prices were, right in in P T minus one, okay T minus one, right here.... What we now want in T minus one was, cos that was the actual price... what we don't know... what was the expectation of prices in T minus one. Well we can use the same decision rule and just change the subscripts... by one, so you've got gamma into P T minus two... right, plus one minus gamma... the expectation of T minus three, prices... T minus two... okay, and we could substitute... right, the right hand side... here, right, into the expec, into that expectation up there.... We then have... to er, determine the expected value of T minus three and the price of T minus two and we then use the same rule substitute it in there, right, we could repeat, repeatedly substitute into the expected value, right in that manner... like we did in, in the er, [clears throat] the symmetry between adaptive expectations and... partial adjustment type offices.... But we just repeat, repeatedly substitute into this unobservable term...... [cough] right. I mean we come out with... erm... an equation that look like... so expected price and T is a function right... it's the sum of gamma into one minus gamma into J... into P T minus one minus J... and J goes to infinity. But we just repeatedly substitute... back... er for that unobservable expectation... right. So again we find out that erm, the expected price in T minus one, sorry in T, is a function of all previous prices... all previous prices, okay and it won't surprise you to find out that the weight giving to... to treating the historical prices... right becomes geometrically in exactly the same way... as the adapted, as the partial adjustment er co-efficient... or the partial adjustment model implied... alright. So the way it's given erm... t to previous prices decline geometrically... right. [clears throat]... Trouble is you've got a bit of a problem at the moment... right, if we want to... find out what the expected price in T is, right, this derivation tells us... that it's a weighted sum of all previous prices... right. We won't be able to estimate that, that model... right, simply because we don't have all the previous prices... alright. We cannot use this... expression up here either, because we've got... an unobservable variable in there, we've got the expectation of which we don't know... alright, we don't know what that is, what number that is... through time, so [clears throat] the analysis could reach an impasse here, right, this,... nice little theory,... nice hypothesis about how people form expectations but... it it's not tractable, it's intractable, right we can't use it.... However... we can apply something that will trick... known as the quoick transformation... right, that will enable us... right, to convert... what is an infinite stream... of previous prices... into something that we can estimate, right, just has a very few number of parameters... right. Now [clears throat]... right, those parameters that we... that we will learn will get this model in the end which contains only observable variables, only those, so it will contain... prices, actual prices and actual supply... alright. There's no ex... expectations in there, no unobservables. Now, what I was gonna do now was go through... this quoick transformation right, you're not gonna be asked t to produce it in an exam or anything like that, but the reason why I'm doing it now is that you will need it for your er, your Q M exam... not er your exam, your project... right, cos there is a similar applicat, it's quite a commonly used tool... you'll find... er, where wherever we have a, erm, an expression with an infinite number of erm possibilities or an in infinite number of arguments.... So you can go, go to sleep if you want for the next minute to erm... but because you will need to know this quoick transformation for your Q M project, you do want, may just want to note it down. [clears throat] So this is a digression... just gonna whizz through it very quickly, we don't really need to er,... [clears throat] spend much time on it. Let's think of the general model... right. Y T... alright, is a of constant alpha plus beta... into erm X T... plus lander X T Y is one... that's lander squared, X T minus two... plus lander cubed, X T minus three and so on and so on into infinity. Alright, so let's call that equation... er A... okay. [cough] Right, similarly at time T minus one we have... Y, Y T minus one equals alpha plus beta... X T minus one... plus lander plus lander X T minus two, plus lander... squared... X T minus three plus X T minus four... infinity again... we call that B and that's just the same equation but we just... erm shifted the subscripts and right, this explains why in T, this ex explains why in T minus one... right, all the subscripts have just been... just been changed.... [clears throat]... Right, well if we multiply both sides, we multiply... both sides of B... right, by this co-efficient lander... alright, we get... right, lander by T minus one, lander... erm [clears throat]... right then what we do is that we get beta into lander X T minus one plus... lander squared, X T minus two... lander cubed, X T minus three,... and lander to four... X T minus four and so on and so s so on until infinity... right. [cough] No notice, right... with these... are exactly the same as those now... alright [clears throat] so what we're going to do... is we're going to subtract... right, if we subtract from a, subtract b from a... all those terms that run off into infinity, we're gonna drop out, okay.... [clears throat]... Alright, so if we tr subtract... B from A... everything drops out apart from the following, so you have Y T minus [clears throat] lander Y T minus one plus B minus A, right equals alpha into Y minus lander... plus beta X T... okay. If you just rearrange that in terms of Y T... we get... so we just add Y T minus one to both sides and so we get Y T into alpha into one minus... plus... beta X T... plus lander Y T minus one... right, that's it.... Okay. So you too would assume quoick transformation... we've got... a geometric progression in here that goes off to infinity... alright... which is equivalent... to that, that little thing alright, we've got three parameters here... this one, that one and that one, alright, so we converted what is an infinite stream into a finite stream using this... er, quoick transformation.... Right, [clears throat]... so that's the digression over and done with... it's pretty fascinating stuff... okay, you'll you'll need that in the... in erm... in your Q M project... if you have to apply one to a particular problem.... Anyway [clears throat]... so... applying the quoick transformation back to er supply response, we apply this quoick transformation to equation seven... alright. We get the following supply response model... right, apply that quoick transformation to seven, yields S T... equals alpha gamma... plus beta gamma... P T minus one... plus, open brackets, one minus gamma, close brackets, beta S T minus one... alright, plus U T... minus open brackets, one minus gamma U T minus one... okay.... [clears throat]... Right, so this is [clears throat] if we incorporate... expectations... [clears throat]... in our model of supply response alright, so instead of saying that the the desired level of supply... instead of saying that, we say... it's actually this... right, if we actually incorporate expectations... specifically... alright, then we get a supply response model... alright, like this... and our hypothesis, y'know cos we don't know how expectations are formed, right, economics can't tell us anything... about how expectations are formed... are they rational, are they naive, are they adaptive, who knows, nobody knows... alright. But nevertheless it seems like a reasonable hypothesis the that that... er... expectations about future prices are revised in proportion, er the errors in expectations in the previous period, alright. If we incorporate that hypothesis we get... a supply response model of that form right, notice that we've only got observable variables, S T, P T minus one, S T minus one, we've only got observable variables in there... alright. So we can estimate this model although we've got a couple of problems that we'll come to later on, but nevertheless it's essentially estimatable.... Now [clears throat] the reason why we've gone through all these horrible equations... right, and looked at the adaptive expectations model and the partial adjustment model is because both of these two things are incorporated into single res erm... a single supply response model that was developed by Nerlove... Nur... Nerlove in nineteen fifty eight... old model but very very popular, right. This Nerlove supply response model that incorporates both adaptive expectations and the partial adjustment hypothesis... alright, has been applied... so that five hundred, right, different commodities throughout the world... right. So it's the, the most widely used supply response model in the entire universe, alright, and as a result of it's popularity... you have to learn it as well. Right, as you can imagine things might get a little bit nasty, we're incorporating... two er, two hypothesis and although very simple... produce algebra... that er, that's a bit nasty.... But never mind... never mind.... Now this Nerlove supply response model... alright... was introduced by Mark Nerlove in nineteen fifty eight... right in a heart breaking book called the dynamics... right of... supply... right erm estimation... of farmers... response to price... okay.... John Watkins University Press... I think there's a copy in the library... erm, you may want to have a little look at it, but [clears throat]... so what we're going do is we incorporate both these two hypothesis into a model supply response... okay. We'll er... do these just crack handle and then we'll show what information we can obtain alright from from this model and there's an example on a sheet of paper just to er... run it home... right. [clears throat] Okay. Let's start, start from the top... [clears throat]... let's suppose that the desired level of output... right, in any period... S star T... right, is simply... a function... of the expected value... of the price... so we're using our par our... well that's just a general, a general statement right. Decide supply... you subfunction beta of expected prices, right in T, supply in T is based on the expectation of what the price will be, in T... right. How are expectations formulated, right, it says nothing about how... expectations are formulated just says that... private supply will be dependent upon expected prices... alright. Well let's assume deducted expectations model... is a reasonable model of expectations formation... right... call that equation number one... right, so our adaptive expectations model is... E T minus one, so that's E T... right, minus E... T minus two... into P T minus one... right, so that equals... gamma... into... P T minus one, minus E T minus two... P T minus one... right so that's the same expression as we had before, right that's the our ad... our adapted expectations... model, that's, that's how we're assuming that expectations are generated... right, or revised... right [clears throat] so, we're incorporating expectations into this model but we also want to incorporate the fact that farmers take some time to respond... to changes in price... alright. Adjustment is not complete, it's partial... alright, so we're going to say [clears throat] that supply adjusts in the following manner, right, according to the partial adjustment... hypothesis... alright, so changes in actual supply... alright, will be delta... of... the difference between the desired level of output for T, right... and the actual level of... input T... minus one... alright, plus... er... alright, so that was just our partial adjustment model... that we looked at last week, right, we'll call that equation three... [clears throat]... okay... right. What we're going to do now... is combine both of these hypotheses... right... into... our supply response model, alright and we come out with the following.... [clears throat]... Now, it may look a little nasty but don't worry it simplifies... very easily.... So we combine those two hypothes hypotheses... right, we get S T equals alpha... delta... gamma... plus open brackets... open the second set of brackets... one minus delta... close brackets... open brackets, one minus gamma... close brackets... into S T minus one... minus... open brackets, one minus delta... one minus gamma... into S T minus two... right,... plus... beta, delta, gamma... into P T minus one... plus... E T... minus open brackets, one minus gamma... times E T minus one, right. U T was just that random error term... that we looked at. [clears throat]... Right. Now, looks pretty horrendous... alright, but if we... bum data on S T, S T minus one, S T minus two and P T minus one, all actual... variables, if we bung those into the... microfit and ask them to... form the regression, it would do, right, it would just... you'd get S T equals A plus B... that's T minus one... plus C... A T minus two... plus D... A T minus one... alright, and... B T [clears throat]... So before we we'll call that equation four... right, so although it looks nasty... alright... it's fairly straightforward, it's all, all we're doing is, we'd be asking the computer to regress S T on constant... like how you would yourself... T minus one... to like values... T minus two... and like prices... okay. [clears throat]... Right.... So it would actually be very straightforward to do this, although not... a couple of problems in this model that we ought to just say something about... alright, the specification of four does present a couple of problems... right. The first thing... and these are statistical problems that we won't spend too much time on them but just make sure they are... [clears throat]... our error term in this equation, right, is no longer a random error term... it's dependent on it's value in the previous period right, cos B T actually represents [clears throat] U T minus sumfunction of E T minus one... right. So... first problem... is one of serial correlation in this model... right, if we estimated this model and things were as we thought they were... this hypothes, these hypotheses were working... and farmers were behaving... erm, as we thought they might do, right, this model will automatically use serial correlation... right. So if you didn't get serial correlation and you estimated a model like this... you'd be a bit curious and wonder why... right. Secondly,... we've got erm...... [cough]... model [clears throat], we've got a dependent variable... a dependent variable, right, S T minus one... right, will be correlated... with the error term, right, so the dependent variable will be correlated with the errors... alright.... Because S T minus one... right... will be contained in the information up here.... Right. [clears throat]... Now because of these two problems... we violate... er a couple of assumptions... of ordinary lease squares... right, and as a result, the upshot of this... is that we get biased estimates... of our parameters A B C and D,... right, they will be biased... and also they won't... have the minimum variants property... right, they won't be the best estimators... you, the statistics you talk about blue estimates, best linear and biased... alright. So if for any one of those parameters, let's just say B... right, let's just say that's the true distribution of... the parameter B... what you'll... [clears throat] you estimate O L S and you'll get... alright, you'll get biased estimates, this is what you would get from the computer, alright... so we'd be biased cos the, the true value is over here but not only that, is that, instead of having a nice peak distribution, distribution would be quite flat, alright we'd... we wouldn't have the minimum variants property... alright.... So that there is a measure of the bias... and the flat distribution is a measure of er... erm... the fact that we don't have an estimator that's got this minimum variants property... right. So effectively what would happen all our T ratios right would be very small... cos the standard area would be very large, but don't worry too much about these ecometric problems... what I want you to do is to appreciate that... estimating a supply response model... right, can cause problems unless we do something about it.... Right, I think we'll, we'll leave it there for today, we'll finish off... [clears throat]... er... this tomorrow. No, no Er, just to appreciate, erm... what, what what it comprises, yes, so adaptive expectations what does that imply... partial adjustment, what does that imply. What can we get out of it and we'll do that tomorrow, we'll... derive y'know... estimates of... expectations, co-efficients and and elasticities... and it's those sorts of things that... you might be asked to in an exam... but, you won't need to derive anything in your exams Erm,... I haven't, probably better to see [speaker001:] Is he in there now? [speaker002:] He should be there now, yes he should. Right, so I'll see you all on er, on Wednesday.

[speaker001:] Well, we should be able to decide before the meeting and make the changes as we go along. [Stella:] Yes, yes,. [John:] Yes, just how quickly but, and the people that are used to the style of how they're gonna be done. [Richard:] I think that's Stella's point. quite straight forward. [John:] So we probably can get another lot well before the... [Alan:] If we're just talking about the niceties of the way these things are laid out, previous set of procedures say things like page one-o-two, page one-o-three etc, and I think that is probably good practice if you can look at a page number and so you know exactly how many pages to expect so, we can probably do that when we re-issue these procedures as well. Okay, Q P2. [speaker001:] . Erm, if there are any changes, however minor, if er, could we make a point of re-issuing the procedure, after we've decided a change. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Sorry, I haven't quite statement. If we decide er, at each point of the committee meeting I, I think we should be processing any and suggestion forms that procedure owners have received, in a reasonable time, in order for them to process it before that meeting. And any changes that we agree in that meeting, can we then re-issue those procedures immediately after the meeting, or as soon as possible after? In principal, yes. [Rita:] I, the only problem I have [John:] , it's not between, it's meant to be weeks. [speaker001:] Yeah. Can you just explain how that would work though 'cos we're now erm, auditing by job, aren't we, and given I don't know the audit timetable I can't visualise the effect this would have but it seems that one could be making a change 'cos a particular, a job's been audited and it effects Q P1, or something one month, and therefore you make changes to it and another job's audited the second, another month, the second month and Q P1 needs changing again, and it, in terms of keeping our staff with us, it will be quite conf, I think it's not terribly practical to keep having constant change. Right, this is one, this is one of the things which I am not happy about, with the way in which you are running your system at the moment, and that is that you're being totally reactive. You're waiting for somebody to audit and find something wrong. If somebody comes up with a suggestion for a change to a procedure, at this meeting, yes you should be looking at what that suggestion for change is but all of you round the table should be thinking, well does that change adversely effect other jobs in our areas and it shouldn't happen that you will get change after change after change. You should be thinking beforehand, is this really right or isn't it? At the moment you're cre, you're cor, [cough], you're correcting your procedures on the basis of auditing and finding out what we're not doing instead of really thinking about them. Long term, what really... [John:] Yes, but isn't that because we had a very, very, very long think about them and this is the first reaction to that long think. They were as good as we could make them, we felt, and we had a long think. [speaker001:] which is first set of audits, first set of suggestion forms which have come through because a lot, standing order. I, I think what Richard, what Richard is suggesting is the very sensible way forward in the longer term, whether it makes sense right at this instant is, is another matter. I do think we've got to bear in mind that when you are looking at a change does it apply to everybody. Erm, like you had the discussion on the first one and said, well, yes, it's all very well for you and yes it's a great idea for you, but the rest of us don't want it, and I think you've got to do that. I think that so far as we've got. Money's our, we have the committee meeting, we agree changes procedures and as soon as possible we re-issue those procedures, monthly issues that. But there may be good reasons every now and then for not re-issuing er, even though it's agreed what the will be. I can't quite think what they are but... I think the other possibility to take Stella's point is that if there is a change that's come up because of an audit, where a particular job has been audited and you know that within the next week or so another similar job is being audited, it may make sense to refer it 'til the next meeting, providing you're not deferring it for a long period of time, to compar the results of the two jobs. And that means looking at the audit schedule out front so that you, you're not. All that means is a general every month that we'll re-issue some procedures. [John:] Well, yes, but in the long run that it, that won't be, it will only be in the short term, when we're really honing out. [speaker001:] Sorry, I meant monthly was an adequate frequency. [John:] Oh right, no more frequently than monthly. Right. [speaker001:] Yes. Could we have a copy of the audit time, please.. Have you got one there? Yeah. Good. Let's move on then to Q P2. Right. Were any of your extra's about Q P2, Si? [John:] Yes, one of them is. Erm, start from the beginning. There's the quiff from Peter, which is pointing out that the letter of confirmation that we reference to because it was a repeat, so reasonably enough they're not going through all the assumptions, and he also is saying that the er, letters of confirmation that is a repeat of the previous job. Erm, a suggestion from Richard's attached. There's a suggestion here from Sarah. The application states that this procedure does not cover costings based on rate cards. We use rate cards in that excess but we still comply with the procedure which. [speaker001:] It's perfectly reasonable to follow the procedure book and the procedure. [John:] Are there any other rate cards that might be excluded? [speaker001:] Well no, there's the T G I rate cards but then this doesn't apply to T G I. But that's on computer? Yeah, yeah. Perhaps there's no need to 'Cos the thing about rate cards is that if the rate card is there you don't have to go and get special authorisations or, you quote them the rate card. Well, we have the same guidelines as. Okay. You wanna remove it? [John:] But you don't have a costing, you do have a costing quote form. [speaker001:] Costing quote form. [John:] Do you have all of these other things. It, it's a case of what she's letting herself in for if we strike this out. Maybe she's not covered by this in effect. [speaker001:] Well, I mean, we have a different costing form but we have costing forms. Where else do we have rate, rate cards, to rate card printing? Yes, I'm trying to think. Have you got a separate procedure for. Yeah. knows the separate procedure. Well, I'll have the. [John:] I'm not to keen on striking it out. [speaker001:] if we leave it in, Sarah can still follow the procedures. [John:] It's the same if we take it out, if we take heaven knows what. [speaker001:] Well we just established that there are areas where we're using rate cards and where we don't follow the procedure. I think... Does printing follow? Printing. Printing has its own separate procedure. I think one of the problems is not taking out rate card, if you leave out, if you actually say this procedure does not cover full estimates and costs or costing based on rate cards. So, if you don't take that out, it means that effectively you're gonna have to have another procedure somewhere that's going to cover rate cards. And if they get, if they're happy to work to that. [John:] Er, we're gonna need. [speaker001:] Contact cover the procedure. So, if we don't take this out we have to do something about. . Yes. . Good, right. Now erm, most of this is about er, repeat projects rather than new, original ones. Erm, you can read the suggestion there, two point three, two point four. My only concern is two point four. We're quite clear we have to have provisional guidelines which say with, what level of seniority is required to authorise a quotation of the values. Do we have a list of authorised researchers, that is people who are authorised to give costed clearances. Yes, each division has erm,. Right, so when in two point four it says er, a copy of the quotation must be signed by an authorised researcher. Er, someone as authorised in the divisional guidelines, yes, authorised to, checked and authorised according to divisional guidelines. Signed by an authorised researcher. That may not be by name, John. Erm, I mean, our pres, our erm, guideline is by level. By level. I know we still say that is defining levels. Okay, I just wanted to be clear we weren't finding an additional list of names of people who are authorised to do this. No. 'Cos it, for example, in support when it came to the... I don't know how other people are doing the guidelines but by definition the divisional guidelines mustn't say, must define who the authorised people are, or those. Whether they do it by name or by status level or whatever else, really doesn't matter. Obviously it must define the... Right, it's just that we had this issue in support of other research a questionnaire and in support key divisions, sorry, key departments have lists of named individuals who can authorise questionnaires. That's in data, data processing and, and. So, I'm just thinking that the potential across the company if you look at our system broadly and an auditor says the phrase authorised researcher, where's the list of names, they'll get an answer in one part of the company and they'll get a list of job titles in another part. No problem. . So, we agree two point four. Erm, we haven't let anyone disagree with that either. I'm not clear about the, the sentence in case a repeat costing's copy of the quotation given to the client must be signed by an authorised researcher. Is that. [John:] Copy of the letter. [speaker001:] Oh, copy of the original letter, so if you didn't... [John:] No, no, the new letter which says this' ll cost, the at this time will cost you three thousand five hundred, then you've got it signed by an. [speaker001:] quotation probably based on your previous jobs, somewhere write that down. No, you haven't. In case we repeat. No, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't arrive at a costing based on the costing quoted before. Yeah, but you've got to come up with a cost somewhere, that's got to be. Yeah, well yeah you just do that times five percent. percent, or whatever. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yes, but. That's the figure that appears in the quotation to the client. That's the only place the cost goes. Yes. I don't see a need to have it repeated on a separate bit of paper anywhere else. Right. Just. [John:] The only thing is, if in access they may never actually write this down. [speaker001:] they always write it down. [John:] Oh, they do. [speaker001:] Mmm. [John:] Oh, right. Well, that's all right. [speaker001:] I mean, the difference is, I think, that if you, if the letter comes from the liaison point then the letter won't necessarily be signed by the authorised researcher but we're saying a copy of the letter is signed by the authorised researcher and put in the file. Right. Yeah. Yes. [John:] Clearly, if the person is authorised himself, the letter on its own will do it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Completes in the first sentence needs to be in upper case. In two three. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] . [speaker001:] Okay two, two three, two four and two five are all accepted? Yep. Well done, good. Moving on to Q P4. . Any extras on Q P4 before we start? Erm, guidelines... [John:] He's got that here. [speaker001:] Oh, has he. Right, fine. [John:] Oh no, he's got, hang on. None of the new ones. So. [speaker001:] . Yeah, right. There were references in the last two meetings and two quiffs from Liz and Peter erm, which I can dig out if you want me to. It's erm, as you can see, it's divisional guidelines for authorising costing needs to be and referred to under related documents rather than just divisional policy. . Yes. I think this was one of the quiffs erm, arguing that er, a proposal er, will help prepare, the letter wasn't. a letter to the constitute. I mean, it's the same project. [John:] No, that's okay. [speaker001:] Erm, four nine, the research of formal question letter, order form or contract, to my mind, quite honestly, a purchase order form is a contract from the client but erm, the quiff seemed to think that it wasn't so, I don't know whether it's worth changing this, depends how the auditors form. The auditors picked up that we had a pink purchase order form which was neither a commissioning letter nor a contract. In my eyes it is a contract but do we need to make this change? . [John:] as we're going to make other changes anyway so... [speaker001:] Yep. [John:] And we said that where a form referred to a procedure, the procedure would refer to the form so I've added that details are completed on the research approval form. Yeah. Erm. [speaker001:] That's details of the...? Of four point nine the date of written confirmation from or to client. Yeah. We've also got client so, we've also the client contact record sheet which is. , you don't have a enquiry, do you. You only have it once at this point on, not at this scene of the. Yes, it does, I think. Yes, I think it does. Now once question I have got on this. As I've, I mean divisional guidelines forthrising costing I've added to the related documents and I'll produce those because they're a divisional thing. Er, I've now added the research approval form and it's become a related document here but in the original allocation of forms, the responsibility for keeping this up to date was not mine. Now, are we sticking with the allocation that we had in the past, peoples responsibility, or when we change them in this sort of way are we mucking them about? 'Cos I like to know what I am responsible for and what I'm not. [John:] Yes, it decision. Presumably the original decision was, was based on the first time, it is now the first time. [speaker001:] Yes, that's correct. Who is currently. Whoever. Jenny I think, is it? Yes. Jenny. [John:] Both are going to be difficult. It's going, if you actually think of, about this, it is going to be difficult to me to remember to change the responsibility. [speaker001:] I would prefer that we accepted that Stella's original notes defines the responsibility for forms literally for all the time. So do I. I mean, we just, we just don't have to keep changing it and talking about it. [John:] It does mean it's no longer the case that the, that the owner of forms is the person who's first mentioned. [speaker001:] . No, but that was just an easy way of. Yep. But we have all and we know what. Okay. Sorry, can I just. It may be me misunderstanding, but erm, are we therefore saying on this one, god which one are we on, Q P...? Four. Four. Where are we adding this bit about research approval form? At the end of four point nine. Right, so we only do it once we've got the formal, so we're not generating a research approval form for, unnecessarily? No. Right, sorry. I thought, we're only doing it once it's been commissioned. Right, okay, fine. Once it's been commissioned. Can I just make one suggestion, sorry, and that is er, in four point nine, where you've got your formal commissioning letter er, you put down order form or contract. If you take the word form out and just leave it as order, then it doesn't matter in what form it comes from the... Yes Yes. Form or a letter. Yes. I mean, just going back to your point, I mean to me an order form is a contract. If we're going to put something in then let's keep it as general as possible. Yes. Any other points on Q P4. four point six you've got quotation letter and actually a lot of our quotations are actually faxes. Would that,? It's, what it comes down to is an understanding. If we're talking about outside auditors, whether it's a letter, a fax or whatever won't make any difference as they won't quibble over things like order forms and stuff. They're looking for a written documents, full stop. But, internally, you need to make sure that your auditors and your, and everyone understands the same thing. i think it is fair in that case, because we do define a proposal as we've done elsewhere as a. Good, Q P4 done. Any. No? Good. [loud rustling next to microphone]. Q P5. Are any of you extras on Q P5? Yes,. Erm, oh this is the, this is the point that erm, had Stella wrought up earlier on. The quiff erm, was about these interim field reports, suggested that no such thing existed, interim should be taken out and the rest of it should be. Er, Stella was saying we are going to have interim field reports. [Stella:] That's because I'm going to suggest, so we call them interim fieldwork re, interim fieldwork reports. [speaker001:] What. And that'll be a related document. [Stella:] No, it won't be a related document because we don't... [speaker001:] Good. [Stella:] They vary. You can't have a standard one. [speaker001:] like job descriptions. They vary and job descriptions with them. So you want them to be called interim fieldwork reports. [Stella:] Yes. Make sure. [speaker001:] lower case. Does this apply to er, interim response reports... Postal surveys. Postal surveys? That wasn't quiff but it's parallel. [Stella:] I've never done one. I don't know. I'm looking at Alan. You don't know either, presumably. [speaker001:] Could we say... Yeah, I think it applies. Let's say it applies to postal in exactly the same way. So, all I've got to do is disembowel them. And you'll need to take on more, Stella. That, when it comes to postals. [Stella:] Right, interim fieldwork report. Okay, fine, yep. [speaker001:] Yeah. Right, so it's neither of those related documents. Yep. Five point ten. Five point ten. This was the thing that came up previously about er, dispatch of a report not being recorded anywhere, because of that was a compliment slip which a photocopy wasn't kept and so we erm, therefore have to have a note made on the client contact form to say it's gone. This is gonna have to be a general reminder to, a general point to all researchers because they won't know that, I'm sure. That wasn't the original, that was never briefed. No. But if we have to do that. a major new... It is a major new point that if we have to prove we've sent, sent things out then that means... But you make a note of that as part of your... I believe it's quite an important part. Well, well, well. Nothing about training should go on er, as training people procedure should go on the notice board, shouldn't it. I think maybe with this next issue of procedures we need a separate mode going round which says highlights the key things, yeah. highlighting the key points. 'Cos otherwise everyone... Everyone will. The reason for setting aside a through the request as researchers where we're actually going to go through all the procedures, highlighting, the changes are and why. Elizabeth, could you just sort of mark that in your minute, as something that if we do produce a highlight of changes, that is one that we. [John:] the first thing which is re, a really major change to peoples behaviour. [speaker001:] It, from the requirements of the standard it does only imply where you haven't got a covering letter or anything like that with it. Yeah, that's all the time though. 'Cos all our reports probably go out with compliment slips, all our. 'Cos if you've got copies of the reports and things in the file, then that's not a problem. Where the problem arose was when there was no record of anything having been sent or what had been sent or anything. Well, what do you mean, if there's a copy of the report in the file. I mean, if there's a copy in the information office is that good enough proof that it's gone? Well, this is up to you to decide what you actually proof if you need it. [John:] This is a not unreasonable thing to have as one of our procedures remind you and ten, twenty. [speaker001:] No, I know. Now let's move on to Q P9. I think this is the closest that we'll find. Well, I'm not quite sure that's what it's called. Is it called client contact form? Client contact record sheet. Sheet. Client contact... Record sheet. Record sheet. It's not a form, it's a sheet. Is that referred. [John:] You take your, do you know that? [speaker001:] What? [John:] Advertising campaign, you probably don't know.. [speaker001:] Oh yes, I do. your sheet. [John:] Have you changed your sheet. [speaker001:] Is erm, set down as a related document form there or? [John:] Kleenex [speaker001:] Not yet, no. I was gonna say Andrex. . So, in this case I do inherit a new form, do I? No one else has got, has someone else got responsibility for client contact record sheet? No, I don't think they have. I think I have, 'cos I think it's on the erm, Q P whatever it is, document control policy records and I think that's one of mine. Oh yes, it will be and it's, it'll be in the list, the list of what should be in the master job file. . Yep. In the list. Yep. It'll be in that. Quality records? Yeah. Client contact record sheet. Now I've got a suggestion form from Sarah here with four points on it. Is this on Q P5? [John:] Is that on Q P5? [speaker001:] It's still on five, yep. Point one; er, for access the field element is pre-booked, it's only necessary to book additional days or shifts verbally in excess of that already reserved. Will that come under the erm, when they inact continuous or would it continue as a non-standard survey? No, Ros has already argued that in most cases access is covered by a standard procedure survey. Right. So, what if it says Simon, because I wasn't paying attention. [John:] So point one does not apply to access, have to have. [speaker001:] Yep. Well, let's carry on with, there are others here. Point two. Booking forms are used for access face to face. Erm, a schedule is used as a telephone omnibus detailing all the projects on that particular survey. So, there's an appropriate booking form for face to face which is actually in excess,. I'd say so. [John:] Well, is it oh no, no, no. Come on. Can the term er, appropriate booking form cover this thing called the schedule. [speaker001:] Oh yes, yes. Er, oh. Call it a booking form. Form? Yes. I was just saying that's what a booking form is, a schedule isn't it? No, I mean the, the others have actually got booking form written on them. Are we gonna be changing the name of the schedule to booking form. Yes. [John:] Or booking schedule. [speaker001:] Or booking sheet. Either that or we write a couple of variations on the end of this and we say the general access conforms to this but in their case, the other one is pre-booked, the extras and they have a booking schedule. 'Cos this says specifically in the applications, with the exception of continuous surveys. Therefore, and I think we'll all take access to something that we would. [John:] Paul, point Q does not apply to access by telephone which is what we're for. [speaker001:] Mmm, well we don't particularly want access to exempted from the procedure. No. Which, if we car, if we call it continuous survey then it would be. I've also got points at point three and point six now. This is when erm, we need to go back and look, look at your continuous survey procedure. Yes. Which we've already talked about and there's no reason why erm, you cannot have a one pager for access. It says it works in accordance with our normal procedures except and rather than put the exceptions for access in that procedure,. [John:] This requires us going through these with toothcombs as we've frequently already got access as an exception in them. [speaker001:] We had it on this procedure, already. It's not complete, is it? One point four. And it's coming, and from what Simon was saying, it's coming in, in other places as well. Yes, points three and point six. I think very good at going through with a toothcomb anyway and I'm sure that she could quite adequately. There's a fundamental problem in here that my definition of the continuous survey includes access. If said to me, what's a continuous survey I would put access in it. Aren't we going to. This procedure says the continuous surveys are excluded and then specifically says erm, what applies to access except this one. I think that's the aberration, isn't it? The oth, the other's don't say except continuous surveys anyway, do they? Most of them don't. Yeah, but we have got a problem with the other's, so far. [John:] This is the first where we've got a lot of problems with access. [speaker001:] I mean, my concern here is that if you've got a procedure that's got nine points in it, and effectively we're going to go through one, two, three, five of those nine points and say either this does not apply to access or access does it differently. They're not working in accordance with that procedure. None of this really applies, if you read each of these they don't apply to access, in the real sense, do they? In the full sense that them, we're talking about. . Well, five can't apply 'cos four... . it sounds to me as though we should let the, the application stand with the exception of continuous surveys. Delete this reference, point four does not apply to access by telephone, take up Carolines point that we need for access when we've got through the other continuous a brief statement which says, the project planning procedure doesn't totally apply until. If we leave... Project planning. It's not a separate procedure. It's, it's a document available within access. Oh, I see. It just says, it's different. But there's a continuous procedure that says. Right, so there'll be a statement here or would that be in. There'll be a statement in the procedure that Richard is going to write on behalf of Jenny. Oh, right. Which defines a list of things which will have their own er, statement exceptions. So, if we're leaving with the exception of continuous surveys in there, where do we say er,. I thought we were gonna write... So, we're going to write that in. Because those... That's gonna be in the individual master job file. They're gonna be in their master job files. Any differences. But they all follow this. Virtually, I think. Fine, in that case. Then they just have somebody who says, we follow procedure of Q P5. They don't even need to do that. If they are actually following a standard company procedure the project planning is very good monitoring. Yes, the continuous procedure only allows you the freedom to make changes if you need to. So, if you don't need to. I, I would suggest that any areas here at, as a overall statement where you said things don't apply to continuous, that those are actually taken out and that every procedure applies to everything, unless it is specifically removed and your continuous one allows you the... Yes, that is reasonable now we're creating a continuous one, isn't it. I mean, that was obviously put in here at the time that we didn't have anything that covered it. Oh, that's right, yes. So, I think perhaps if you take that out and write this continuous and non-standard one, it allows you the facility for using it or not using it, depending on the project you're working on. Presumably should we therefore have something that covers quality, oh sorry no this covers it doesn't it, yeah, o.k. Richard another point Erm the only reason this is an issue that I get a cooking for as Research Process Manager anyway, as Audit Manager I need to have other booking forms, and the only booking forms and additional booking forms I need are all jobs which then got to Mrs which are the so I ask please make amendment to put Audit Manager in and I don't think we need to specify. Erm can someone make it clear to me where we ended up with Q P5, I am not sure whether we are changing the application or deleting Yes the exception both doing both your doing both yes. Is this being appraised with the exception or continuous service with the application, and we are deleting that point 4 doesn't apply to access. We will have a new procedure called Continuous and Non-Standard Surveys which says that they will follow the basic procedures, except where this doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense the job will have in it's Master Job File a statement of how, it does comply with whatever it has to deal with. Now on that point, for access someone now needs to pick up and write effectively a simple this is how we project planning on access. And there may be one or two other things we work through over this meeting and the next meeting. We are close to the end of erm You should be lively signing this document. We might call it a day at the end of the assignments and take Jenny's away to recap, erm lets get to the end of the assignments first, Q P9. Where is Q P9? papers rustling This one I think we should give a little thought, because this is the one I think where oh yes this is going to get complicated because I have now been given a quiff and a few suggestion forms about it You said you didn't have the print of it, is that right? Yeah Richard's has given me... Your'e still missing two? This is also one where we chase our search approval forms, and procedure. we've got quite a lot of these reports together here. It's also the one that covers You should continue this as a staff meeting with The only change that I have got here are minor things that were references from a previous meeting all the difficult stuff comes from the Quiff and the suggestion forms that I have not looked at yet, and so if you want to do that around a table because I don't know whether thats right. Can you Erm, I I just hoped to dictate to you which would cover the changes of the research approval form Well there is a list of things, list of points here, 4C does not apply to scan 5, does not apply to scan T G I questionnaire. 9 Research approval forms for relevant to T G I space. 10 does not apply to T G I Survey. The reissued so that the reissued quantitated appro.. search approval form no longer has provision for B P questionnaire approval. Continue reading first continue reading. Company survey's will not go through data prep but D P approval is critical why has this been removed from the form? Because the only job we haven't capped, is continuous and there are no procedures for continued jobs yet, and we have not yet got an ad for Kathy job and therefore no procedures were a mythical thing. However. laughing However, as we write these continuous things which we are talking about, approval for Kathy clearly is an issue permanent restructuring for each I'd suggested to Sarah it might be covered by Q P10.5 which actually says that the research approval form is signed by the researcher which she felt wasn't really enough. That was my understanding of what might be meant to cover that point. That she felt that it was really something D P actually signed off.. Well there is not for Kathy but for Kathy she thought this would be. Well they keep a record now don't they D P keep a record anyway, there is a system where D P keep their own records perhaps it would be helpful they've authorised If I just read out what I was going to suggest Simon described the new system for approvals it goes something like erm, sorry it's 9.9, all approvals are recorded on research approval forms full stop. Erm in order to simplify the approvals from Support Division, field approval is recorded on the field review form, data preparation and D P approval is recorded on data preparation schedule the name of the person giving approval, the name of the person, the names of D P's approvals are recorded on the research approval form. So obviously you just write down that Rita did it on the 10th. But Rita in her own department has got the document that she sends so the researcher doesn't have to take the bit of paper round to everybody and get their research approval form signed. That's fair enough because you get action Sorry, There's not room on the form I don't think It doesn't matter cause Rita can't D P could authorise it. I said we haven't got a procedure for Kathy I thought you were reading out the bit to... All I have been saying is the things which aren't Kathy's everything else questionnaires. Now Kathy seems to me should be checked checking the assessor, just as if it was going over the telephone Well then... that's just what I was just trying to think through on Kathy. Well we don't have procedures for it, we haven't written them. Sorry if you take catty as the para now, then D P aren't actually, the reason D P sent the paper questionnaire is to just double check that all the columns and everything are laid out in the correct way aren't they and then checking it for that reason, whereas they are actually doing it on something like Kathy themselves so they, there isn't the same approval going on. Someone's got to check the filters are right... The does that on a Catty Questionnaire... Well he does that on every questionnaire, but he still has got to get someone to double check it. Mmm, it's that element of double checking that... But, I mean that D P team do a lot of work on the Catty questionnaires which doesn't really seem to be er sort of fully acknowledged at the moment. Yes, I think that as Richard said we need to agree if quality is to continue we have to write some Kathy procedures. That thats certainly... With a timetable to them we are in the best place to do it now cause we're still learning we have only done three jobs, four now haven't we? erm the Kathy procedure is definitely needed. We are grinding to a halt on those aren't we? yeah We got D P 9.16, 28.32 we've still got four to do. Are any of those other one simple, what you would consider simple ones to understand? Erm, I will have to look at them They are actually. As 9 is one that obviously needs a lot of work and a lot of thought on it. I am proposing to delay 9 as a question for the next meeting Qualitators, quality control rustling paper. Erm this was the suggestions from Rita All of them seem very sensible to me. Well I have accepted adding those research review meeting. Yep. Are you, what are you going to call this form now Si Is it the qualitative review form or... Erm it is an existing... It's called a Qualitative Data Review form... no it's called a Qualitative Research Review form so what's this in the something else. Oh I see as opposed to that which is how many groups they proceed to check. The qualitative research review form it's existed for sometime. So thats now reference and there is a project review meeting as there is a quantitative work. You have got four things sorry related documents. Four how have I got four? I've qualitative field review forms, yeah qualitative data review forms yeah qualitative research approval forms. It does exist, but it's not referenced here, but it does exist. And if it's not referenced here it may not be referenced anywhere else. Well, it needs to be Q P9 then doesn't it? Where we were just now with the research then talk about questionnaires. Called research approval forms. No there is a separate one for qualitative and it is different. Yes it has a lot it has a lot less on it, things like.. Is this document on that side do you know? What? No, I just have qualitative approvals... It's not mentioned anywhere I think it ought to come up first in Q P9 doesn't it? Well can I make a suggestion that you add it all to the list of the things to discuss it is. Authorisations. Did you get that one Simon? Erm Discussion of Q P9 we need to decide when we qualitative approval form or whether it gets, business procedure Q P16. In that case we can't finalise this one until we have decided that. So I think that should be bought up. No one owns this form what we are trying to do is make sure it's ready so therefore it has an owner. It seems sensible that it goes with wherever the... The qualitative procedure is aware of your design procedures. They may do a few they're not going to cut there, they will cut. Yeah but it doesn't really fit in here at all, I mean it's nothing to do with any of this. Nothing to do with any of this at all. It could come up under... You see my visions for qualitative are slightly different to the four months at the moment, and I feel perhaps could exchange Q P16 for the control procedures to be a longer procedure but to have everything covering the project plan in progress monitoring through to quality control procedures for just the quality. So if you look at something like Q P5 where you have got this point qualitated, in fact a lot of the points don't actually apply to qualitated because many of the points relate to erm, D P erm, qualitative field as opposed to survey. So I do just wonder if I couldn't pick out point say 1 and 2 of Q P5 and 6 which are about booking and booking forms and confirming the commission of qualitative through to whatever is required during the run off of it and then add the quality control check and finally you have got this, the final review. So in other words qualitative, the whole of qualitative between commissioning as merit checks has an er... Yes o.k. that a major review of the whole thing though. Do you want me to have a go at doing that Simon? because I have been difficult about it, if that helps you. Well that would be welcome but it's fine, and it should be down to me to do it, but you are all welcome. O.K. I'll try do a version, but it does effect on Q P 5 an Q P6 you see as well coughing. Can you and Simon liaise. coughing. Do you think that's a good idea? Yes I think it is. Could I explain one alteration on Q P16 Simon given our recent changes. We've got this erm, er, some one is going to monitor a proportion of work that you have recorded as transcripts anyway, and it will be a research director or A.D. I'm just wondering whether we can comply with this now. Er, well will you leave that to me in the re-writing of this. Sure absolutely. Q P16 we are going to move on from then, unless there are any other comments on Q P16, Rita is going to attempt to redraft and draw together material from previous procedures, and that means that adjustments of previous procedures you will be able to sign, and finalise them. Sorry, are you saying that erm we are going to delay doing anything about Q P5. I would, in that, in the light of well, actually no we don't have to. In actually physically up dating anything, I would suggest that at this point that Simon doesn't do of them until after the next meeting when we have got all the other's together as well because again they may attach things, just that you've got your information and know what's been decided and do the whole lot after the next meeting. Can't we get Monica to do the up dating? I think it would be easier to try and draw them together so that we have got this document with the position so far, as we have a lot. It's very hard, I am finding it hard to keep up with them at the moment. Certainly we shouldn't re-issue anything until after the next meeting but erm, having the procedures we have finished with so far, in their latest form probably helpful, even if it's only you whose has the master copy Simon right so when we need some reference, we have got that chapter and verse. Monica I am sure would be quite happy to. laughing She will be ecstatic... She certainly won't be. This is what worries me, if you have got too much stuff going through one person that. That's what will confuse her. But their always in version two. No there not, this is going to be an interim version between one and two, what Dot's just suggested. It's still typed as two. I it's she will type it in as two, and then you will give her the next draft and then two and then the next draft and then two, I mean there's no confusion there for her. That is extremely confusing for her, cause she has on her computer, she has various versions named in two, unless she destroys previous versions of M2 when she does this one Well she should she should overtype the correct one Which isn't what we did with M1 Well then one is a complete rewrite. But we had various versions of M1, but we didn't ever get rid of the first version, so we could, the one that Suzannah did and then the one that I changed, and then the one that the Committee changed, all exist so that we can back track what we actually did. Right. How did she... with this we just need to type over it No, we do, I mean you do this just the same as any normal report, you do the first one and then you edit it and make yeah, yeah. Monica will be alright she know's what she's doing, it's just whether she has the time to do it, she would liked it if we had done this before Christmas, so that while you were away John you could have done it she had plenty of time to do it. Would we be able to do erm, just a sort of support ones and D T P if we got the masters from Monica as a standard responsibility. Yah, now she's made them out, shall we say we will take that one to share the load. If Monica gives a brief one. Press on please to Q P 28. papers turning I don't think I've got anything new on this so all of this comes out of B T 7, and this is all to do with Stella's original paper about who had responsibility for forms and so on. Any problems with these proposals. Seem perfectly sensible to me. Accepted. Right then number 32, Q P32... Erm we are renumbering some points in that one, erm we were trying to avoid it before but I can't seem any way of avoiding it here because these are major new things. Then there's the new additions I'm sorry about that. papers turning The proposals on Q P 32 actually reflects erm, the decision we made earlier on my, my proposal about suggestion of whose responsible for. Sorry. Well I think points 6 to 7 are to the procedure owner who communicates what action and under responsibility both points it's actually procedure only and not divisional quality manager. That would be o.k. if the only suggestions allowed were suggestions about procedures. We have just agreed that we would allow suggestions about procedures and other suggestions about the way the Company is run. They are often the same person or principal it could be either in divisional quality manager or procedure Just a change of how we would suggestion box unless So maybe Simon a brief statement in the application yep would clarify. Well. we decided that we didn't need to change the application I suggested that. This procedure describes how suggestions for improvements to systems and procedures are generated. Well in that case how about on method point 1 suggestions for improvements we need the word "two procedures". yes yes suggestions for improvements yes suggested to for improvements to procedures. Well I suppose we've got to reissue it anyway so we might as well. Yeah, yeah. Good. I propose Elizabeth that you circulate Jenny's reprocedures to everyone but we don't know with them, that we will read them prior to the next meeting and agree them at the meeting papers turning I have got to assess papers turning take one. Take one of those, I've taken one, take loads of copies Three procedures coming out I thought I was getting it already anyway laughing scattering the whole process. Can we just agree one final bit of detail before we pack in, there are a number of procedures now either which we be re- prepared as the basis of today's discussions, we have only got two, have we, is there just two? three three 17 18 and 21 21, I've got 17 18 21 is choices, it was the first one to come round. Don't try to blame me. Bottom pile in choices if you can send it back. Are there any spares to erm... oh yeah thank you, Suggestions, in preparation for the next meeting, for those procedures that we still have to review, the procedure owners are going to put the information to us in one of two ways, if it is a minor modification procedure small changes of wording things need to be uncontroversial, we will resite the procedure with red line and strike out in the way that Jenny procedures have been prepared and circulate before the meeting. yep If the procedure owner thinks that more substantial discussions are needed then we prepare something based on model assignments paper which summarises the erm, in put so far making the proposal as a bases. Everyone happy with that? Just to confirm it is one O'clock next Monday working lunch. Is there any chance of a bigger airier room, or is it just... Whenever possible I try to get a Lecture Theatre, erm but I was told it was booked all day today we were originally in presentation room then came, so be grateful we're in the Board Room. [LAUGHTER] That was actually quite a productive meeting, although it took quite a time to get through it, I think we did the right thing on the continuous procedures. That will be bit of a break through as I was getting a bit despondent about them. Any note from me about progress will follow next Month's meeting not today. I agree, yep. O.K. before we pack up any other business. Erm there was I am sorry to be boring but there are all these action points from the previous meeting Oh yes I forgot the action points do you feel we have covered them. I don't know. Erm I don't think we can spend a long time considering them, it's just if people bear me whisking through them our brains. Could I also ask a question which you might be completely clear on, but I'm not, when we do back checks on files and make sure they are all up to date and so on, we come across maybe a research approval which hasn't been signed off in the right places, how far back in time do we need to get that signed off. We don't. We don't. If it's something like that erm, all will go back and check that erm the researcher in as a matter of course, a couple of months and make sure But when it comes up for the real audit, what job, is it going to encourage jobs that are audited. Old jobs you can't say don't know they will of course be... We will explain our procedure and how a system is developed to be assigned, they will decide. What will happen in fact is that you'll have a start date for your system, which was basically when N1 was, and what they will be looking for is that everything from that date forward is complying right so that a job that started before then, they won't look for the initial part of that job to comply right as of that date onwards they will look for it to comply. In practice if you are back checking files and such like, if you find something that is current word which should comply and you find something that hasn't been appropriately signed or whatever, if it's easy to get it done yes do it yes, if it's not easy to get it done erm, it may be, you've got to use your judgement because I don't want you to go into a lot of work, but it may make sense to make a final note we are aware that this wasn't done correctly this person has been reminded, or... In this case it's fine anyway so... Well that depends on whether you are actually doing it during an audit or doing it for other reasons, what they are looking for is that your system is getting better and that you have done the right things. Well thank you. I will run as quickly as I can through the minutes of the last meeting just raising those things which still have to be actioned. Erm missing procedures we have decided that Jenny is going to write T G I, Beety will write B T and we are going to write something on access and we may need to write something on erm Health and Finance and those documents we have got in the Master File. So that's under way. Er, costing for parallel, repeat jobs, that's been dealt with by Simon erm, Client contact record I think that's now been assimilated into new procedures yes we have just talked about that er sub- contracting you have probably dealt with that, although we haven't discussed it yes er, list of procedure owners I have prepared and reissued it, I don't how wide they have circulated it, it was meant to go into the Quality Manual, and the Quality Manual is not being re-circulated until March time. I will provide a copy to Elizabeth and we will circulate it to members of this committee, together with the Ministers' meeting. Julia's definitely got a copy Yar, I think I got a copy but I just sort of filed it with all the Quality Manual stuff, as there were various different things which needed. Alan D P P forms done. Yep. All forms weeded out, get things destroyed, quality divisional quality managers. I think we've reviewed that this morning, early and we are doing quite well on forms, but do we need any further action on that? Yes we really need to do this don't we. Do the weeding yes and sorting which is really going to come from our meeting. Well can the divisional quality managers be prepared to report back on this next Monday. Well wouldn't it be better to wrap it all up in the forms meeting. Rather than take the time of the quality committee? What's this forms meeting? It isn't yet It isn't John hasn't arranged it yet. That's why it's not in my diary. I'll organise that. O.K. All of that next bit relates to the form meeting. The form's meeting and I will take along to that. So that's down to me yep? O.K. well we have dealt with that, research approval is what has changed it. is that all that was? You've done that. laughing Every so often senior level people must go to files to check that things have been correctly, you need to continue to do it,, Action Divisional Quality Managers. I'd like Elizabeth to bring that forward yep for my benefit, as I know I haven't done it and I'd like it as a prompt. You want some spot checks, half an hour a week to go and do some spot checks on that. How about that? Was that meant to be that people like me should be doing spot checks, Richard should tell people like me to do spot checks or Richard was going to do spot checks? It should be that Richard does it, though he might choose to delegate it. But the i. . Richard is responsible for seeing that it is done. Yes. Yes. In one way or another. There are two things you're trying to achieve. One is the spot checks themselves to make sure that everything is right, the other is to show the commitment to people like you that this thing's important. Active staff. So, we need to make that happen. Yeah. T G I manuals, well Jenny's working on that. Sub- contracting work, Q P19. Rita. T G I production list. [Rita:] Yes, to be fair Jenny came in er, on Friday to talk to me about it, but I just didn't have time, I was rushing off to a meeting so I've... [speaker001:] You carried forward that. [Rita:] Yeah, I, I couldn't, I just didn't have time. [speaker001:] Er, okay, we'll carry forward Jenny... [Rita:] . [speaker001:] Probably in her procedure. Yes. , Q P17 changes. Yep. D T P printing need their quality manuals reference in presentation will of course be. Jenny did circulate to me, by way of saying, I've done something about this, copies of D T P quality manual and printing quality control manual. With good quality manual, one of quality control manual and and all these are is the old procedures, quite badly out, not written anything like. So really I, I thought they were a bit of a mess to be honest. [John:] Is that a manual? [speaker001:] That's a manual. Big manuals. I don't think they are any good for the purpose myself, but maybe you've got an old version of the. The procedure circulated them as the thing that's in place. Yeah. They've been retyped and they've been called erm, procedures. Erm... What? Guidelines, sorry. Guidelines. And er, they are actually a good description of what goes on in those departments and those that relate to these procedures. Could you make sure that Jenny is clearly briefed then, because she thinks, this is version N3, dated January '94. . There is some confusion there, I think, and er, I'm glad they've been retyped and issued. There's already more reason why and that's suggesting that you're saying January is inadequate. . You can have two issued in January, one is like N3 and one's N4, because you know that N4 is more reason for. So, we're going to follow up on that. Well, the issues of it. Alan, can you feed back to Jenny what the state of play is, but she also doesn't seem to have her document control particularly well organised and if you and D P, sorry D T P, re-issuing those guidelines, you shouldn't be. Jenny should be. If they are related documents to the procedures. They're controlled documents. Erm, they weren't controlled documents up until now. They weren't, okay. They're about to become. [LAUGHTER]. They came out of the audit, didn't it. And out of Carolines audit. [Caroline:] Yes, they sort of crawled out of the woodwork. [speaker001:] Thank you, Stella. We just raised an instance of the next point of the minute. It must have been reference for Jenny to be... No. They were originally procedures, you see, and then they disappeared as procedures and went nowhere. They were in, they're coming in in seven reports. Your suggestions? Like the last meeting, yes. [LAUGHTER] It's not fair. Can we use things like document. As things are revised we should try to harmonise names of third level documents. We've got the department quality manuals, working guideline, we've got the quality control manual, we've got the quality manual erm, it would be nice to see if we could harmonise them. But, we could only do that from procedure levels and. That was a, wasn't it. but not accurate enough to say at this stage. it, there's no point in re-issuing perfectly good documents just to change the name on them. No. But,. But, new documents that are being prepared. I, I would suggest you need a standard name for it. Quality guidelines or just guidelines. Guidelines. Wouldn't it be whatever it is, yes. Guidelines. Dot. Dot, dot, dot, dot, guidelines. Well, can everyone take on board the idea now, if there are new documents being prepared or we get to a major re-issue. We're talking about guidelines. Yeah, in the process of. Even if they're all about quality control. Yeah. . No, just thinking of data prep. Think about guidelines. Yeah, I mean, a document that is literally about levels of verification and. . I have one question about it though, and that is ar, if you're calling them guidelines are they guidelines or are they mandatory. We could use this procedure say according to the guidelines, then it becomes mandatory. Guidelines. No, no, it becomes mandatory to follow the guidelines which are not mandatory. . I think it's important that you know. They are in the sense that I think we believe they're mandatory, don't we? . But we don't want to make it a, a potential area to fail. It, it depends on just what these things are for, because if think about a third level document as being something like the T G I manual, that's got to be mandatory, you've got no choice in it because it's not covered in procedures, it's got to be that. There are other things that may not be, so you need to think very carefully about what name you're going to call them and whether all these documents are mandatory or are advisory. Could we put on the agenda for a future meeting something called review of guidelines where the, this is exactly the issue. Yeah, so what to call them if we're going to change the name, or what we will eventually change it to, we're not going to change them now and whether they're mandatory or not and whether we need to change them to say that. For a future meeting or the next meeting. Not the next meeting. Just... No, not the next meeting. February, March. February, is good. February. Training records, there is a committee in place meeting tomorrow to deal with that. Sorry, February, I think we'll be having feedback, won't we? Don't worry about it, we'll... Alright. February will be good, we should it before March. We should no the answer to this before comes. Right. Er, Stella, have you taken action on Q P24? [Stella:] Erm, yes, we have. This is where we've come up with critical application software. [speaker001:] Okay. [Stella:] I mean, you'll see it in my procedures when we, when we get... [speaker001:] See we've twice as divisional quality manager half an hour each week looking at. [Stella:] It's now an hour. [speaker001:] Did I say an hour? . Oh, is it. double dose. Erm, Richard to organise our auditors to accompany Caroline next time. Okay? Yep, fine. Er, divisional quality manager should give positive feedback on divisions about this pre-assessment, the one that happened. Anything to report back on that, divisional quality managers? One divisional quality manager didn't even get positive feedback. [LAUGHTER]. I think Richard gave me a copy of all. . [John:] Mine, they haven't. No, I mean, the meeting wasn't that long ago. I'm having a division meeting on. So, I'll make sure that it's more general, I mean, I talk to the directors. I'll not call a formal divisional meeting, we had that on Wednesday. [speaker001:] Well, I went round and talked to group, but I think there's a lot of er, about keeping everything fine and up to date at all times in all places and all the rest., it was almost the energy to manage to do it, a hundred percent of the time and a hundred percent of the occasions that they felt, I think, was a little daunting. There is still lots of goodwill and I'm sure er, they'll aim to do it but... We're getting, if we could be this time next week, given feedback and come back with some response and maybe John, you can take whatever comes out of that on board in your. Er, changing needs to get signatures, that is done. Thank you very much for your help, Susannah. Er, John went around to all staff is done.. Done that. Well, actually, wasn't a reminder about the need for suggestions, so perhaps that could be included in, in the next one. I included quite clearly in my re-issue of the research approvals form er, the covering letter that went with it, saying you know, here's an example of suggestion that makes your life easier, please keep them coming. That didn't go to everybody. That only went to the... It went to all procedure holders. ... only the nine. Call for more suggestions,, okay. Mid-January we're working on that, suggestion forms, three quality completers, I've put that in the revised list of people coming round in these minutes. Q P32, suggestions. Well, we've done that, haven't we Simon? [John:] Yeah, I think so. [speaker001:] Matters arising from previous meetings. Version dating related documents, task not yet complete. Still not complete, but we have reviewed that and we're making good progress. Mind if I have something with it. Roy is to check on receiving inspection of testing received in. Q P4 is amended now, Simon. Q P17, Jenny has drafted and circulated. Q P28, amendment still to be done. You've done those, Simon. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] And issued them to date, that's fine. B M R B International reports, not yet issued. Yes, it is. Yeah, a manual. That Jenny has designed. Jenny T, don't know, 'cos it was down to Jenny D to... Jenny has given me notes on, on one issue here which I must admit I haven't had a chance to read yet and it's about house style, about both manual. I'll make sure that er, I've read that and talked to Jenny in time for the next meeting so we know where we stand. So that's a cross to bring that one forward please. John, still. And? Well, she knows she's going to do them. Good. Quality jobs isn't her favourite job. Is it anybody's favourite job? She does it well though. Er, next for job descriptions to go to the quality manual. I'm sure you've got the masters in place, haven't you Elizabeth? procedure review to start in September '94 in appropriate er, Richard. Yeah. Good. Dates for '94 meeting, blah, blah, blah. Next trial audit, that's it. What an awful, that did get ticked off actually, as we went through. Well done. Sorry it was another long hard meeting but we are making good progress and I think by the end of our next one when we've revised most of the procedures we'll be well placed. Good, thank you very much. [talk in background].

[speaker001:] Well to be quite clear I'm prepared to allow debate on that motion if you wish it to be if the majority of you wish there to be a fight, but if the majority wish the er to pass the vote on the amendment I will take that, do you wish to. May I ask then formally those who wish to pass, now to the vote on the amendment [speaker002:] I'm that [speaker004:] you have to call for those in favour intention will you now call for a vote for those against [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'll call for a vote for quite clear I am going to stick to what I've said that I consider that the amendment has been proposed it can be if it's to be accepted it can then be accepted by the Committee as a whole [speaker003:] excuse me can I ask a question? Can I assist here? the motion that has been mooted and the amendment has been proposed the amendment has been accepted the question now is whether what the the motion has been made and uh it is a matter for you to go to your suggested that certain members be allowed to speak at the end of the day it is a matter for you to decide uh control of the who is allowed to speak on that particular motion as amended of course here here [speaker001:] is that a the wish of the committee thirteen minutes and is it specifically other members [speaker003:] not each [LAUGHTER] just go into the debate don't waste all the time [speaker001:] right, ah may I call on the first person to whom this is going to be I believe you speak on the [cough] [speaker004:] thank you um, it will be quick ah one of the things which caused distress last year was the reduction in the for sixth formers and I was sorry to see that it wouldn't be restored this time. But the next best thing is for more money towards fourteen to nineteen education so that's very welcome at least and was widely supported in the various versions we saw this morning, my concern is with the way in which this money is to got from the centre to the school and I'd like to speak very strongly in favour of what if I got what you're is education so that we aim to assist schools to build on their own interests and and not have it parcelled out by some central authority which is and which a sigh of this is an area of great relevance to schools

[speaker001:] I actually wanted to that I didn't really want to go as far as for example deciding that the chair what they are voting would be within the resources available to the. The other area we that we explored in some depth was er whether the the library room could be combined to library or to library, but we've left it to them to make a decision but they appear to have so decided that there is a mixed pattern emerged. Some libraries want their own library group others are quite happy to be joined in with one or more libraries within the adjoining group and the constitution does in fact provide that investment wish what we haven't said what those who should be at maximum membership membership and to their claim will common sense not to make it too large otherwise it might turn out to be more than than sensible discussion among a reasonable amount of people but this but then to decide that equally to encourage them to ah find ways and means of the public other than library users who will be represented on the committee and to that. I vote that this a good point other activities for the County Council in a few years that you that you will find er people anxious to support, thank you gentlemen [speaker002:] thank you is there a seconder to that [speaker003:] I'll second that [speaker002:] seconded by do you wish to speak now [speaker003:] yes I would Mr. Chairman erm I concur with every word that and confirm that support er mostly er [speaker004:] I've I've have been given notice that there is one proposed amendment which I intend to call now because then we can vote on the whole thing [speaker005:] No actually [speaker004:] sorry sorry I saw it yes I beg your pardon, I'm sorry [speaker001:] I would like to speak [speaker004:] you wish to speak [speaker001:] sorry, right ladies and gentlemen I would like to move a very small amendment to do a the second a membership on on item four on where it says up to three represent the area etcetera erm now the which I am currently a member of includes three libraries erm which are and and there are in fact five County Councils involved in the area of those three libraries when in fact Bushey has its own Bushey and there was a but I would like to see

[speaker001:] Long fingering of manuscript and I thought the [LAUGHTER] fingering. I now it's putting it on I thought the long fingering of man should was a lovely expression Where was that, you said that? Isle of Isle of oh Isle of and they sh what she went on to say is erm... I hope to redress this in the... shortly in other words she's shortly going to but I must say I like the expression long fingering you know bloody idle you know. Mm. So you haven't got it back? No, no she said she's gonna redress the balance very shortly. Erm... when I find my glasses I Now I've got to leave at three thirty. Okay well we'll Okay Kath, right. Erm let me just see if I've got a I made a whole page of notes here dunno whether any of its important. Erm... I've got the Observer Ghost Story winners we can leave that for another week. Erm... the talks erm Gillian Thornton is gonna speak to us on the 23rd of February just to remind you and I've actually prepared some notes on play writing which we can fit in some time during this sort of session. Erm... homework I'm [LAUGHTER] Come and sit down Janet.... Ann Hello, [LAUGHTER] Well let me just say quickly we're being recorded there's... there's someone er who's gotta er a project organisation by the Oxford University Press who's interested in our spoken word Right and he's going to ask each of us to sign a... a permission form in the end, because we have our... we all own the copy right you know our own spoken word and er in order that this man can use what we actually speak today, is showing to want us individually to sign a form. I don't think there's any sort of danger in it it's it's in fact for use in constructing a dictionary... really. Erm so it's they're really interested in our use of language. Erm... I told you about that chap Michael Bell who wrote to me about using my book as play, I'll read you his letter some other week. Erm... John's Dream the National Playwright's Network actually wrote back to me and said they're quite happy to read your plays for a fee erm... but I intend to re-write that before I put it in... er for a reading erm... Oh,I I sent a poem called Pleasure to Woman's Weekly... in June last year and I suspect they were actually planning to use it but they've had a New Year's clear-out and I got it back yesterday. Erm... Foxes in the Garden with the R S P C A photos I had rejected yesterday as well, so that was a good day. Erm... I brought in the old flurry tape,I 've I've taped I taped our when you've read my play for me, I erm... I taped it and I made a copy for Dave I you know, erm Cybil makes a good effort in that so eventually I'll lend you the tape. Yeah that's [LAUGHTER] eventually I'll lend you the tape [] for that erm we can pass it round. Erm... Mr. Parish I mentioned, sorry your name is Jim? Jim Jim did you say? Jim and he's proposing to listen to the group today with the views to joining. Jim has written, like myself his background is in technical writing for a living... and he's gotta particular interest in American... writers and the use of American language er I gather. Right well... I'll start today if you don't mind and we'll go round in the normal way erm when we come to Pat. Pat has got five thousand odd words to read to us, so if we can scoot round fairly quickly today. Well we'll leave him till last if he's got Yeah well that's, what I was like that yeah In other words you know you What I was Pat is five thousand words is really too bit a bite you know if you really want people to criticism off it, you wanna break it down into sort of two thousand word chapters really. I couldn't get to the first part again and yeah that's right Even though you you feel it's off your back you've written, you can still read it out I could go er that wouldn't be a bad idea, because part of it would make sense to finish. Yeah well if you like. Yeah. You know five thousand It is quite a lot to read I mean I read a short story last... week. Two seven. It was Two Seven and that even seems quite long you know to... That's right It's quite long in the reading five thousand is... as Yeah as Cybil mentioned you know I mean if... if we want to criticise your first ten [LAUGHTER] words it comes a bit hard up to five thousand [] you know. something that makes sense to carry on Mm Okay Can I just mention that nobody's read that but you'll see the last sentence says that... whatever you put on that tape the... dictionary keep the copyright you see and that's all right when you're on conversations, but if you were to... to read in an and it was a short story, if that's you know i if they reserve Very observant yes, yes but Jim makes the point he said that if if if when you sign a declaration you say Er yeah exclude your short story, otherwise it could mean on you know it could be taken out and sold somewhere and then in interest you would sell your own for selling your own word you know that could be a possibility. Well nobody's really saying in case when any of us sign it, we must sign excluding the written work yes, yes, yeah read out and if you exclude it, I think if all us do that the best thing is to read something we've already had published. Well [LAUGHTER] I think it's something like that Oh, the one that keeps up to date and updates the Oxford English Yeah, I think Even so, I think as David says, it would probably be wise to exclude your exclude your written work. I mean... by the piece I'm reading you today, I've already submitted to the B B C and if I sell it if it's something that's If if they they take it, then I've sold the copyright to the B B C and I'm not in a position to offer it to anybody else anyway erm So will the tape last for the whole two hours? Yes, apparently. B B C. Yes. I don't want any of your bad language Janet... [LAUGHTER]. Right well let me just surely [LAUGHTER]. This... this is I I I'll start off as I say I've... I've written a covering letter to Bank and Mitchell of the B B C and I I thought I'd read you the letter as well, because the letter... does what we've often said about setting the block plan. Erm... I say I enclose a short story for your consideration. In this story the principal character is a grumpy old house with a malevolent sense of humour. It is newly occupied by a young couple. In the first conflict situation the house launches a minor attack on the wife whilst possibly saving the husband from real harm. The couple settle in. Minor conflicts occur with the couple trying to pacify her, this continues up to a black moment when the house relents and saves them... and then I say and this is important I think when you write for a radio, I have marked one paragraph with red brackets. This paragraph is optional depending on the reading speed. Without it, my version occupied a few seconds under fifteen minutes. The play is written for a Hertfordshire accent or similar and then you know I enclose and I say return if you don't like it. Incidentally Janet, did your piece ever come back or erm [Fred:] Yes [speaker001:] Oh, it's come back. [Janet:] Came back. [speaker001:] Oh. Oh Was it the Black Dog? No, that came back after all that time erm,... no this this was the call called The Birthday it was about a split in the future where she erm Oh yes was a little girl on her fifteenth birthday and has it it's like an M O T Certificate, only it's an M O L... Certificate for life that you have to do after your sixty five. Well I sent it to the B B C, I sent it to Duncan but I also sent it to the... the Lady a shorter version to the Lady... their competition and I said their competition was gonna be on the eighteenth in their issue they would give the names of the... of the winners, but I had looked in the Lady yesterday in Smiths and there was none of... nothing about it, but I don't think I've won anyway because it said you'd be notified by post so. that they run late on Yes it does. I've had one away five months to but I I I No, but this has been published It's been published December the fourteenth and I haven't had my copy yet which was in Central England. Oh, Central England. Yes Yours was sent to sent on to the charity work. Oh, you did do it and I didn't. Very important. [Fred:] Right I'll read you this piece and you'll have to... forgive my facsimile of a Herts. accent. [speaker talking in a hertfordshire accent now] Home sweet home my Roy Ramsay. We fell in love with the cottage at first sight. It was snowing the January day we moved in. The cottage was old and grumpy, she didn't make us welcome. Cottage means small house. This house was large and had four bedrooms. She didn't like her name, she didn't like anything. I was a young man, I was virile and vigorous. She didn't like me. I well remember our first night with the aid of father-in-law we spent a long day moving ourselves in. He was in a van and two estate cars we made many short journeys. We'd loaded and unloaded furniture, tools, books and crockery, the contents of house and garage, greenhouse, garden and shed. The cottage had solid brick walls, none of your modern self-insulating cavities. The ancient boiler had sat in sullen silence for ten days, a drifting cave under a mountain would have offered more comfort. The rooms were too chilly for the youngsters, so we left with mother-in-law. I bought some coal and lit the sulky boiler. Four hours later the cottage had allowed the temperature to rise a degree above freezing. We made a last cup of tea on the camping stove and retired midnight. We lay awake all night startled by strange sounds. We was too cold to sleep, to exhausted to search out extra blankets from unlabelled tea chests. Holding each other close we wondered if this was a senseless move from a tiny cosy semi. In the morning the fire was cold and the cottage once more below freezing, she burst a boiler. While I was making some tea there was a tremendous crash. Me wife screamed. I flew up the stairs to find a huge hole in the ceiling, at the foot of the bed covered with plaster and ice. Water ran from the hole. Of course at that time we didn't realise she'd done it on purpose. We had just finished finding the wife some dry clothes when there was an explosion downstairs. The camping stove had blown up. At least I was upstairs when it happened, no-one was hurt. We waited, tea-less all day for the gas man to connect the cooker. We had fish and chips from the local chippy for lunch, dinner and supper. The fire had a good appetite too in the cold, we burnt exactly one ton of anthracite in that freezing January. Life got back to normal, we picked up our bearings. The back of the house faces south, an avenue of giant elms and a few old oaks lay over that way. The house on our western side had been empty for years. It's back garden was a jungle. Among lots of small trees was seven fifty foot black it's front garden held two mighty elms. I loved the trees, but having this forest next door, made sure our garden only saw the sun as he moves from east to west early in the morning. The rest of the day we never saw him. We loved our home in the woods down in the lane. She didn't love us. Outside, the cottage walls were a horrible battleship grey, the woodwork was depression brown. The interior was dull and decrepit with lots of layers of ancient wallpaper. My wife and I loved a challenge in those days and we could see what it might become with hard work, but it was a real challenge, no mistake. We tackled the house bravely enough, we started with the childrens bedrooms. Next we did the kitchen and breakfast room where we fits an efficient gas boiler. We battles on in dining and sitting rooms. We found out that the sitting room had a timber panelled ceiling which had been papered over and given lots of coats of whitewash. Father-in-law and me soldiered six weeks to restore it looks now. We papered and painted two big bedrooms, bathroom and toilet. We installed bigger radiators everywhere we went. We began to win the temperature battle. Lastly, worst of all the landing hall and stairs, all those doors, all that white paint. Several times the cottage tried to throw me from the scuffle boards, one night she succeeded, I got a badly twisted ankle. I told her you won't defeat me. Next year my wife starts in earnest on the gardens, driving back to Blackberry and Elver, while I experiments with the outside colour scheme. All the walls I gives three coats of brilliant white stone paint, easier to say than to do. Black and white seemed a suitable work, the front door was painted long yellow. As I say, the back of the house faces south, the summer sun was on the upper frames all the time. He soon blistered the glass in black. With a fight the frames were changed to white and yellow which reflects the heat rather than absorb it. Time passed, we improved the house. I hoped she'd begin to feel grateful. We fitted new carpets, lamps and staircase. One summer I changed both sets of French windows for doors with Georgian frames. I give myself one hundred and twenty new panes to varnish round, who says we grows wiser as we grows old. The house grinned. The owner of the near-ruined house next door came and had his forest felled to sell the property. We gained a sunny outlook and some neighbours to enjoy. The house smiled. The let in some afternoon sun which burnt the still black paint on the front paint work. I saw what she'd been smiling at. We settled for yellow and white all round. The two boys shared a bedroom, the spare room was our office, the boys were six years apart in age. In a few years their needs were very different, the young one needed to be in bed and the older one wanted to play music with his friends. Then my wife had her brain wave. There was a wide space beside the staircase, the stairs rose up to the boys' bedroom wall, then turned left to join the landing. On the landing the first door on the left opened up a walk-in cupboard. Why not, my wife says, knock a hole through the boys' bedroom wall, pinch a three foot six strip off it and make a new landing passage and extend the walk-in cupboard, forward to take up the old landing and sideways to build a space out to the main part of the stairs. It was brilliant. When the work started the house was furious, she put every possible obstacle in the way of the builders and arranged for it to rain as soon as the slates come off. She made sure all the plumbing and wiring was in the path of progress. Every hole drilled in the walls met a stone, she blunted every tool. When everything was finished, the younger boy moved in. For weeks we bumped into strange doors whilst making our way to bathroom and toilet in the dark. The house chuckled. At last, to pacify her, we fitted a new bathroom. That magnificent cottage suite with gold- plated fittings should have pleased her. She showed no sign. To prevent her playing nasty tricks on us we had all the old lead and iron pipes taken out and the rust galvanised tanks replaced with trusty burst-proof fibreglass. We thickened up the insulation in the loft to deaden the midnight sound of her dropping chips of toil on our bedroom ceiling. At last, I thinks I seeks her problem. In the dead of night I crept down to the breakfast room, the nerve centre. Listen house I says, you are not a small house, the cottage never was suitable. We are going to change your name, we are going to call you the [speaker001:] Wallering Remember Christopher Robin, his wise old house spelt his name Wal We're going to name you for the elms at the foot of the garden. In a fit of temper she arranged for all the surrounding elms to catch Dutch Elm Disease and quickly died. This drove out the tawny owls. She could be a nasty devil in those days. Suddenly I was struck down by an illness. When I was at me lowest me wife beat me, she excelled herself and managed magnificently when the family's happiness depended on it. I went blind in me right eye overnight. At first I could find no cause, I panicked, if I could go blind in one eye without a cause, perhaps I could go blind in the other. I could become a burden to me wife and family, not only that, if I couldn't pay the mortgage they might throw us out of the cottage. I started two schemes, first I increases the monthly payment on the mortgage, then I starts a separate savings account. Gradually the mortgage comes down and the savings goes up, but there's still a gap. Then, bugger I down dead if she didn't get me. [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] I was painting the back of the house one Saturday, when she shook me off the ladder, I got a compound fracture on me left leg. Well, I'd had so much time on the sick, they put me on half pay. I couldn't pay the mortgage. Things got very black indeed. The bank was hard, they said they would foreclose if things didn't improve shortly. [clears throat] At last the house relented. As I lay in me bed each night, I heard an eerie, moaning sound from overhead. On the third night I woke the wife, she couldn't hear it. The boys never heard it either. When they was all out at work on Monday, I could stand it no longer, I pulled down the loft ladder and dragged meself up it, plaster and all. On Thursday, my brother Dick the doctor visits me. We did ya this copper kettle he asked, I've not seen that before. Oh, I've been hearing strange noises up in the loft lately and I got up there to see what it was. Do you remember, Granny used say copper kettles was lucky. Well I found an old brown paper parcel tucked right away in the corner where the noise was a- coming from, but I couldn't find what was making the noise, I opened the parcel and found this old kettle. All black it was, I spent two days cleaning it up. See, the kettle is copper and the stand is brass. Look, it's got a lovely little spirit stove underneath, it's got a boar hunt engraved right round the middle. Let me have a close look at it says Dick, putting on his glasses. Dick is my next youngest brother, he's been the village doctor round her for twenty years and a keen collector of antiques since he was married. I passed the kettle to him. He removes the lid and examines the whole thing closely. He hangs and hoars a bit then studies the trivet the smooth stove with its little lid on a chain. You've got a fine here he says. Don't you know a list of every time is marked W F S in a diamond. Yes, I did see that, I says. Does it mean anything important? Yes, I think it does he says. If I'm not mistaken, it means it was made by W F Smith of Stockton in about seventeen hundred. It was always an ornament, it was never meant to be used as an every day kettle. It would pay you to run this up to Sotheby's for evaluation, they've got a man there who specialises in things like this. Thanks Dick I says to him, taking it from him and passing the bottle, perhaps I will, I'd no idea it might be valuable, I just like copper and brass bits and pieces. Well of course you can guess the rest, I took it up and had it valued and then put in an auction. We got nine thousand five hundred for it. I bought did Dick a bottle of and paid off the mortgage. We're sitting pretty now. At last the house has made our peace with us and hangs on to her slates in the gardens. Having got the kettle was certainly lucky for me. The funny thing is I never heard that noise again. Fred Thomson has been reading Home Sweet Home by Roy Ramsay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Yes it's struggle in accent [Fred:] Yeah,I I wrote the thing as you remember about eighteen months ago, but... it had no... conflict in it you know we're all the same and stories must have conflict, so I got the house to... burst the ceiling on the wife [speaker001:] Yes [Fred:] and then while he was upstairs... seeing and helping his wife, then the... the stove blew up downstairs, now that might have been the house... saving from a real disaster whilst attacking his wife in a minor way, or it might have been pure coincidence. But er [speaker001:] Hertfordshire where they [Fred:] [LAUGHTER] the other the black moment you know th the bit where I... I put in the bit where the... he broke his leg... and the mortgage was gonna be foreclosed on him I mean that builds up to the black moment which is... a necessary part of the story and then he got out of it erm because the house relented and showed him where the copper kettle was that was worth the money. [speaker001:] use the word black seems to be getting very black. There is consensus out there of some people... who their self politically correct and they do not like the word There was a man being interviewed on tele the other night he said that these people are trying to destroy the English language by their [Fred:] I won't be changing it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] How many words does that write [Fred:] It's I've... I was telling David outside that I've absolutely butchered it... and I... it's erm two thousand one hundred and sixty. As I [speaker001:] Two thousand one hundred and sixty now? [Fred:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh. [Fred:] Why does it seem longer? [speaker001:] T frankly, yes it did, but I mean you were reading it... pretty well correctly the way they read I mean most of us read things I know I do myself, one reads things quicker than perhaps some would if we were reading them on a radio or something. [Fred:] Well I've been practising this. [speaker001:] and erm if you listen to things on the radio they they have at the end of a sentence or at the end of some sentence quite a pause for a second before they go on [Fred:] Well as I've taped that I taped it at home [speaker001:] Mm. [Fred:] but as I wrote this and you know put in the acc th the conflict, it came up to two thousand five hundred words and I taped it and timed it and I've been butchering it and cutting out all the really nice little sentences and the nice sentences and I've got it down to two one sixty and now with that announcement on the end,... as I've got it taped, it's fourteen minutes [LAUGHTER] fifty-nine seconds [] for a fifteen minute slot, so it's about as precise as you're gonna get it. [speaker001:] Yes. [Fred:] Erm... and I may have slowed down a little today, I don't know I should have timed it again. [Kath:] What [Fred:] It's fiction Kath stop worrying. [Kath:] I know. [Fred:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] A kettle. There was one though on the Antique Road Show where there's erm... er girl brought in a kettle and they've been using it... just every day and it was pottery and it was actually to buy her her own house. Showed it the following week. [Fred:] Yeah well we've got a little antique box a jewellery box and it's embossed the pattern round it, and the pattern round it is a boar hunt and it's beautiful, there's a little boar... galloping his heart out with horsemen after him with spears and he's all the way round the box and I thought of adding him on to the copper kettle you know as engraved all round the outside. I've got no idea of what it might fetch, but as I say it is fiction Kath, don't worry about it. [Kath:] No, I was just enthralled [speaker001:] Absolutely. [Fred:] Well I was watching one of those Antique Road Shows quite recently and I found a chap got one of those little sort of two inch diameter one inch high chamber pots... and he said and where did you get this and she said er at a car boot sale and he said and how much did you pay and she said twenty five P. He said well you're very lucky he said by my estimation that's worth four thousand [LAUGHTER] pounds [] [speaker001:] I was, I was thinking cos I've got an old copper kettle [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] Right, well the time's passing we will have to push on. Have you got anything Peter? [Peter:] Yes. A certain... no dialogue today or anything like that. This is one of my... film articles which I mean it's of the things that I've sent of and I know it will be published because I belong to the Cinema Veterans... cinema and television veterans and they have this quarterly magazine and almost certainly you know it will be published in there, there's no [Fred:] There's confidence that's what I like to see. [Peter:] Well [LAUGHTER] I mean you don't get paid for it or anything. [speaker001:] Oh. [Peter:] there's no money in it [speaker001:] Oh well that's a bit of a letdown Peter. [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Yeah, no well. [speaker001:] Did you send your other one in [Peter:] Yes, I have I posted it off during the week to My Weekly, because I thought because the it was about a girl in all trouble, I think it [speaker001:] You're telling avoid that [Peter:] like perhaps appeals to womens magazines more than the other stuff... but I know that I mean it's not... romantic in that way is it's not a romance No. [speaker001:] Oh [Peter:] Yes. This is [Fred:] Right Peter [Peter:] This is called the Men Who Called Action. In the past the British Film Industry has produced many great directors, Sir Reed, Michael Powell, David Lee to name but three. These top directors will not be forgotten in the future, for apart from their films, much has also been about them. At the same time as these directors were making their classy films, there were many other directors churning out the cinema of workmanlike entertaining pictures. It is to these directors many of whom the industry forgot in their later years that I wish to pay tribute. One such director was Maclean Rogers who was born in 1899. In the early thirties he was employed as an editor for Herbert Wilcox at British and Dominion Films at Elstree. It was at B and D in 1932 that he directed his first film, the Mayor's Nest starring Sydney Howard. He continued throughout the thirties making mostly low budget productions that were made to fulfil exhibitors quotas requirements. During the 1940s he directed many films for and British National. I envisage and this is what I believe to be his last film Not a Hope in Hell early in 1960. Although mainly a director of low budget productions, he told me that before the war he concerned it a poor year if he did not earn six thousand pounds, quite a sum for those days. The last time I saw him was at Walton Studios a few months before they closed down and the was he was doing he said he was unable to get a film to direct, so he was going to be Herbert Wilcox first assistant director on his forthcoming production. Unfortunately, this film was never made. Another director also born just before the turn of the century was John Harlow. In his early years he appeared in concert parties. He was also a musical performer and also acted on the dramatic stage. He entered the film industry in 1927 as an assistant director. Spellbound was the first film he directed in 1940. It was a low budget production but drew a certain amount of attention as it attempted to explore spiritualism. Derek Fowler was the leading actor. John Harlow directed a series of films for British National, but probably his biggest success was While I Live which featured the very popular music the Dream of. In the 1950s he was finding work hard to come by. In 1955 he was employed for one week by Douglas Fairbanks Limited at Elstree as a cover director, British cover director on a T V film that was being directed by an American. He spent the week sitting in an office at the studio where in the past he had directed at least six feature films. Ernest Morris... born 1950 started in the business as a trainee on the construction side at Gainsborough's Lime Grove Studios. He later transferred to the production department as an assistant director. His opportunity to direct came from the Danzega Brothers He directed many of their T V series and second feature films. In 1961 they made their last T V series, Richard the Lionheart. Ernie directed all the thirty-nine half-hour episodes, just two second features without a break. He continued to direct films for Geof Parsons and others, but when the market for supporting films came to an end, he found it hard going. He would have been quite happy to have been employed as a production manager an or as an assistant director of which he was first class... but the work did not come his way. He ended his li his work in life as a postman.... Robert Asher, brother of camera man Jack Asher, was born in 1916. He entered the industry as an assistant director in 1934. Over the years he became one of the top first assistant directors in the country. He began directing in 1959 with Follow a Star, a Norman Wisdom film. It was a success and he went on to direct five mor Wisdom comedies. He also directed a Morecambe and Wise film and co-produced and directed with his brother, She'll Have a Go. He also directed a number of episodes of various T V series, but then the same old story, little work. He would also have been happy to have found work as a production manager or an assistant director. The last time I saw him was at Pine er was at on the as T V series at Pinewood, where he was acting second unit director. He was a very dispirited man. I will mention two other directors who sometimes made slightly higher budget films, Lance Comfort 1908 to 1967 his many films included and Temptation Harbour and Lawrence Huntingdon 1900 to 1967. His films include the Upturned Glass and the Franchise Affair. Both these directors fared much better than the other I have mentioned insomuch as they were working right up until their death. The directors I have mentioned I knew personally. There were many others of equal merit who deserve to be remembered, perhaps someone else would care to write about.... I mean it's you know, it's just to... to people in the film industry and obviously it has little interest reading it to [Fred:] There was one which you said Ernest Morris was born in 1950. [Peter:] Fifteen. [Fred:] Oh, fifteen. [Peter:] Yes. [speaker001:] I thought he said fifty as well. [Peter:] Oh no, fifteen. [Fred:] I was gonna say you you s I thought you said 1950 and you said he was directing in 1961, you know I [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The ordinary cinema goer sees a lot of glamour in directing and producing and God knows what else, but you... you really postman [Peter:] No, well he was he... I knew him quite well because I lived in... at that time... when I w was on that T V series, I lived at Pinner. He also lived at Pinner and erm... then the work dried up and he first of all he did work was a postman at Christmas time, you know just as a thing and then he started you know then he became full time you know. [speaker001:] Were there no jobs sort of in between the director and the [Peter:] Well there were the jobs tha that I mentioned really, production manager or assistant director and now he would have been quite happy I know to have done those, because I remember talking about it you know er and he would have been very good at either of them, but erm... er he... he didn't get well he was a slightly abrasive man,he he he his erm... I I think in a way... erm... he was a director who could [sigh] who was not really a very good film director, he... he could get things done very quickly and that's why he worked for bash, bash, bash getting through everything quickly. He didn't have much finesse to do the things but erm and I think he used to sh he although I I got on all right with him, but some of the people working on the floor like the wardrobe people and that he used to... they used to... dislike him because he was but I would but you do find s I think perhaps he was a bit unsure of himself because I don't think he was somebody who'd had a... had a tremendous education, otherwise he probably wouldn't have gone in on the on the construction side which was being a chippy or something at Shepherds Bush and so you know you often find people like that they have a bit of a chip on their shoulders don't they you know, you know. [Fred:] Plus I learned that you know from from our group reading of my play the other week, I learned what the function of a director was because... you know obviously I shouldn't have given you all your parts to read for a week to sort of work out what the inflection should have been. [Peter:] Yeah, because [Fred:] They've just given you a first read. You don't realise how many inflections are possible in one [LAUGHTER] word and every important word the wrong inflection was used you know. I thought ah, now that's what a director sorts out, you know I mean that was... that was er very useful. That Castle was that the story by A J [Peter:] Yeah. [Fred:] Yeah, a really good book that, I've got that at home. Right, Janet, your go. Oh she's got a B B C letter. [Janet:] Refusal [LAUGHTER] oh yes. Er do y it's er printed, it's nothing er... I enjoyed reading your material this is B B C. [speaker001:] Mm. [Janet:] or you won't. I enjoyed reading your material, but after consideration I'm afraid to say that I cannot make use of short stories. We receive up to a hundred and forty week [speaker001:] Oh. [Janet:] and while we do consider each one, cannot offer individual reports or criticisms of every script that arrives. [clears throat] Many of the stories selected for short story are from published collections... established authors... some are commissioned specifically for the slot. We do use new writers, but they have to compete with these other sources. Briefly the requirements for short story are for fictional narrative based... er narrative based scripts of two thousand one hundred to two thousand three hundred words... do not use a factual accounts or anything longer or shorter on this, nor can we consider... 60 Writers Monthly [Fred:] No, no.... Well I get it but I don't read it. [Janet:] something about a novel you know. [speaker001:] Janet, Not what you write what you said B B C [Janet:] Yeah. [Fred:] Well it's, it's very much an, but I mean it's my ambition to break into it. [speaker001:] you know. [Fred:] Yeah, but you know I mean you gotta keep [speaker001:] Thi this really everything in life doesn't it [Fred:] Yeah [speaker001:] or nearly everything. Yes. I mean if you're Yes, if you've got the right name If you've got the right name, if you've a a number of or something coming in to... for a part and of of them you've seen on television and done a lot equally or as good or better, but you're gonna be go for that one probably. [Fred:] That's right. [speaker001:] An and everything they be... be architects or something, you're gonna pick one who's who... who said well I did that building at London Airport or something like that. [Janet:] Next thing, next one I'll send in I'm gonna sign it anonymous because my name may dissuade you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] [LAUGHTER] Oh it's a shame because that piece was brilliant, I'm surprised they didn't take that was very good [speaker001:] Yeah, I'm very surprised about that, I really thought,I I'm [Fred:] or I was [speaker001:] but I really thought [Fred:] particularly the length of time that was away I was really sure that had got on to incidentally it's worth saying that the B B C... re they do they use professional readers who make a report on every piece they receive and they file them. So if ever you read work apiece, and re-submit it, you must change the title... because if... if you send it in, they look up to see if they've seen that title before, if it was rejected before it will be rejected automatically. So if we do a work you must change the title. [speaker001:] Do magazines do they same? [Fred:] I don't know. but certainly the B B C do [speaker001:] It was [Fred:] It was Ralph was it? Yeah,I I've... well that makes a change you know I mean some of my stuff's come back from them and I've wondered whether they've read it. [speaker001:] Yes, I've noticed that with magazines, but this was erm sort of er you know. [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] No, it looks as though [speaker001:] Do you think Janet should send it to... one of the other regions like Manchester or somewhere [Fred:] Why don't you, why don't you send it to erm let me see what's her name erm Gilligan Hush [speaker001:] Gill Gillian yeah [Fred:] Gilligan Hush of Radio Manchester. They're very keen on new playwrights. [Janet:] Yeah, but not cockney accents. [Fred:] Yeah, well give it a try, give it a try. She tries all sorts of accents. [Janet:] I mean th there's a competition for a monologue for Wales, but who wants I mean [Fred:] Ah well, give it a go [Janet:] understand All these [Fred:] Well give it a go, I mean a monologue is a monologue, they're not saying a Welsh monologue are they? [Janet:] No. [Fred:] Well give it I didn't know that, I'm er [Janet:] Yeah they assess in Writers Monthly [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] Oh well that [Janet:] or was it in erm perhaps it was in the that you got. [speaker001:] Yes, Variety. [Janet:] Variety. [Fred:] You see the piece I just read is a monologue and if I'd known there was a competition for it I'd have sent it there... rather than to [Janet:] Yeah and this is Writers er... erm [Fred:] Magazine. [Janet:] Magazine, Writing Magazine [Fred:] Oh I don't have that one. [Janet:] Which is part of Writers erm [Fred:] Writers Weekly I would have thought, Writers News. [Janet:] Well [Fred:] Writers News. [Janet:] Oh, Writers News Yeah, the other one. [Fred:] Writers News. [Janet:] Which I might do when this... er present year runs out. [Fred:] Well I buy Writers Monthly, but I never read the damn thing, you know, so I [speaker001:] Well this is and I noticed erm sort of do my in this particular one, she said she's interested in North American Indians [Fred:] Oh. [speaker001:] Yeah. and... and she said something about through her interest in North American Indians she'd written this novel. She didn't say what it was or who published it or anything, but it made me you know think you know, so I wrote to her care of Writers something and erm asked her... what's the name of it I would like to read it because I had also written something about the er... American Indians and erm... er who's the publisher or what's it called, I'd like to read it. I mentioned just about, and I got this... this erm letter from her. [Fred:] Oh, good. [speaker001:] It's erm... letter of passed on to me by. I am pleased you're enjoying my series of articles on writing a novel, hope you gained something from the rest there should be seven in all. My interest in North Plains people in 1750 to 1850 which is about the same... period for the you know cowboys goes back many years to my pre- writing days. The novel mentioned in the second article is a Winter Man Mills and Boon masquerade [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] Really? [speaker001:] Mm [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] [LAUGHTER] Oh well you know where to try then. [speaker001:] Well I've ordered it at the library because they didn't have, they used to, but it's gone. Erm... and as you will probably be able to deduce from the publisher, is a... an historical romance. It was published in eighty six eighty seven, although it's no longer available in shops, it can still be obtained through the library service [clears throat] if you care to request it, which I have [cough] [clears throat]. I'm afraid I haven't a spare copy to forward to you even on a loan basis, one never allows for the contingencies which arise. [clears throat]. Regarding your own story you state that this is a fantasy, but you don't give details market juvenile, adult, fantasy, supernatural, horror. As a publish writer yourself [clears throat] I told her I've been published articles [LAUGHTER] you will understand the need for market targeting and as you mention at twenty thousand words is not full-length, though this could be if was aimed at children. If it is your first work of fiction of any great length, I think you are doing the right thing putting it forward for appraisal by the Eastern Arts Board, you are lucky in your part of the country to have this. comments you could consider entering it or part of it... in one of the many fiction competitions or submitting it in total to a which takes fiction. If it is your first work of fiction, you should also look at it as part of your groundwork which although it may never see the light of publication, is of great benefit to you as a writer. A brickie does not college N B Qs he needs to build his first house and first novel and immediately becoming an international best seller. Okay occasionally it happens, but I for one am a and I have the unpublishable manuscript in a drawer to prove it. I wish you well with your writing, remember talent is very useful and perseverance is a necessity. [Fred:] That's very good. Mm. [speaker001:] Isn't it? Yeah, yeah. [Fred:] That's very nice of her to write that. I think erm what she's really saying to you is that writing's not an art, writing is a science, bloody hard work. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Fred:] You know getting on with it. [speaker001:] Yes. See I didn't write asking sort of advice telling her [Fred:] No, that's very nice of her No, that's very good. [speaker001:] So er [Fred:] That's very nice of her to write [speaker001:] Yes. And is there anywhere now. Oh yeah, I see it yeah. [lot of people in background talking for one minute] Well when you said something like that, it's not just one person who's gonna have a look is there? Is it? So I mean you have to send one copy, unless they take the bother of the copy they have received may gone to somebody else. No. Yes. I mean what really your hope in looking after that is... is they will come up with some idea of publishing. Well if it's publishable, they Oh that was she was supposed to come today, but she phoned up last week erm... she is gonna come but I don't think that a date has been arranged yet. These are some of the extras standing around on Middlemarch. Oh. It was on wasn't it? Yes. Yeah, it was repeated or something. [Fred:] Oh, it's brilliant you know I mean er, I've... I've telling him what I've doing this week. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Fred:] I've erm [speaker001:] nice photographs [Fred:] They are letter and I've read [speaker001:] I look at the first enjoyed it I mean what the strange thing is that I was reading about... [Fred:] The writers [speaker001:] is that [talk in background] Middlemarch at the beginning, she did it in class [too many people talking at once] [Fred:] Well a word processor is much... much better to use because it's so easy to you've gotta change everything that follows, whereas you know, with a with a word processor you can add paragraphs about words in change words. A word processor is so much more power than a typewriter you wouldn't believe it. [speaker001:] physiotherapy sort of exercises and that. [people talking at once very difficult to understand 3 minutes] [cough] [Fred:] Yeah, you've got to go what time? [speaker001:] Three thirty. [Fred:] Okay, well do you mind if we take Kath [speaker001:] No not at all. [Fred:] You lost them? You can borrow mine. Try mine [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] no it's all right You put them in you [Fred:] Right. Right now Kath, you can start us off. You wanna Okay Janet You're on. [Janet:] Am I? [Fred:] with the glasses [Janet:] It's not in there. Help. [speaker001:] Nobody's Did you drop them on the floor? Put them in your pocket? [Fred:] You read that last piece without glasses thinking about it. No no, you did have them on, no you did have them. Yeah you did have them. [speaker001:] There's a pair on there. They're mine. [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] leave the room. Can we erm... can we let Ann have a go then. [speaker001:] The ashtray [LAUGHTER] yes [] [Fred:] Because the recorder's on. [Ann:] Well I don't know whether it's good enough for a recorder, but erm... I I the ends a little bit because I was rushed to get her so [Fred:] Is this your er chapter of your story? [Ann:] No, it's a short story really. [Fred:] Oh, fine, fine, fine, good [Ann:] but it's it's not brilliant, I mean [LAUGHTER] [clears throat]... Art to regain his breath as he stepped through [Fred:] hang on a second what's the title? [Ann:] I'm sorry I didn't actually give it one. [Fred:] Now Ann I keep telling you. [Ann:] Oh yes I know, I'm sorry. Well shall I call it. [speaker001:] A short story. [LAUGHTER] Works. [Ann:] Spring and Autumn or something like that [LAUGHTER]... Art to regain his breath as he stepped through the swing doors into the ordered gloom. Shutting his eyes, he stopped and was there the one he always remembered from his childhood polish, dust, though not so much now as the smell of books. He paused at the counter struggling with the straps of his shopping bag as he laid his self-regulated three weekly books on the counter. She was new medium height, dark with a shiny fringe and big brown eyes. He caught his breath. Mary, no it couldn't be. Good Morning. She looked straight into his faded blue eyes as he slid his books towards her. The smile was exactly the same, but the voice was different, it had a soft fur, Devonshire was it? He couldn't be sure. Thank you he said absent-mindedly and went through to the Natural History. From here he could get a good view of the counter desk. Yes, she looked almost exactly the same, unbelievable. He picked up a huge book... h he picked up a large book with a huge green dinosaur on the front. Strange he thought, there seems to be a current fad around about dinosaurs, there was one on top of a bottle of bath oil one of his grandsons had given to him for Christmas and another was perched on the handle of a nail brush in the bathroom. Toby had a pencil with a blue one on the end it... its scaly tail curled around the pencil and the head was spiked down the neck could be used as a rubber. Odd looking things he said himself quietly. It all happened years ago, can't understand why they brought them up again now. Mrs Blick moving carefully around Natural History in search of something to help an earnest nine year-old with his holidays.... He's on a holiday project her talking to himself. She smiled, over here is her remarks and hoping all was well. Morning Mrs Dear how are you? Fine Mrs. Blick, and yourself? Art nodded politely. He liked Mrs. Blick one of the old school, always addressed by name, a caring sort [paper rustling] Good Morning Mrs B. Over the years their relationship has developed so that Art now called her Mrs B. He had once served at a library committee but that was when her husband was alive many years ago. Didn't know you were interested in dinosaurs she smiled gently teasing him. Their seem to be a lot around at the moment. Really, she laughed. Well you know what I mean knew very well and nodded. Did you enjoy your holiday with the family she asked gently, knowing that Art lived alone now and welcomed the invitations from his eldest son Toby and his wife Lynn. Yes thank you, it's great fun there and the two rascals have got these things everywhere he indicated the dust jacket where a green scaly monster grinned devouringly at both of them. It's pointed teeth remind him of some giant cheese grater with a mind of it's own, face smiling ready to strike. They were on the mantelpiece in the garden even in the bathroom. It was yo-yo's in my time yo-yo's and parasols. I always think a woman looks pretty good under a parasol, even better under a pretty hat, his eyes looked distant. Daphne laughed, I'll see you in a moment she said kindly. Art raised his eyes to the receiving desk, she was standing... she was standing talking to a young man. My how like is Mary she looked so very pretty. The dinosaurs were spying as he replaced the book. He hadn't wanted to learn more about them, not really, ugly things after all and it was a long time ago. He moved into Fiction, checking his favourite thriller author. He always put a very tiny pencil mark on the end papers at the back of every book he read, his very own secret sign. He knew he ought not to mark the books really, but it was only a tiny mark in pencil and no-one could accuse him of defacing library property, not really, it wouldn't do for an ex-library committee member to be caught defacing library property now would it. Art has served his country town well... this country town well, he lived he all his life all in a small cottage down by the river. He'd won a bursary to a local grammar school when he was eleven and then gone on to an apprenticeship with an engineering firm which employed a quarter of the town's local inhabitants. That has sadly gone now, another victim of the recession. Art had always tried to give back what he had gained in life, he felt grateful for what he felt he had to be given, some said he'd achieved a great deal, but in his heart he felt fate had dealt him... with him gently and you have to make the most of the lo of the card life deals you. He as content and his worry was his younger son, if only he would settle down like Toby and Lynn, find a nice girl, make a home. Art checked his books, there were a lot of little marks on the end papers, other readers marking their patch no doubt, defiling narrative as dinosaurs have devoured other less fortunate in the past no doubt. He thought of them, somehow communicating to ea to each of the boroughs through their own little secret signs and realising their flight of fancy. He moved to the counter, you're new aren't you he said. My son's looking for a wife. He stopped, it wasn't his normal behaviour to speak to the staff in so familiar a way, after all he had his dignity. The girl blushed slightly and then laughed, well we're a public library, not a marriage bureau. He paused still looking at her. How like Mary she was, incredible. Out through the swing doors he made to the Rendezvous Coffee House. Daphne was already there... at her regular table. I like the new girl he observed conversationally. Daphne studied the menu a new one, a friendly dinosaur snaked down the side holding the printed menu between its paws. Damn things keep cropping up everywhere Art observed conversationally. She's right nice, just qualified now to college, from Taunton you know, Daphne says steering the conversation in the way she wanted it to go. It's only here temporarily she's only here temporarily she added. Why has she come here for goodness sake Ar Art... barked [clears throat] mentally choosing mushed up mushroom omelette and a roll of butter. What are you having. Grill... grilled plaice Daphne said and coffee. The waitress appeared for their order, jacket sir she enquired as Art placed the order for both of them. Jacket potatoes, yes please Art replied. How's Steve, Daphne well knew the heartache Art's younger son caused him. As well as I'll ever know he replied gruffly. I'm retiring in a few months Daphne said quietly. Retiring, shouldn't have thought you were old enough, Art was brought up with a jolt. What will you do? I've decided to move. Really? Art was surprised. Where are you going? Taunton. Art could not speak, he had become so used to meeting Daphne for lunch once a week, it was part of his life, he felt shocked, strange, bereft. Taunton was where Steven lived, where the lovely young girl in library He looked across at Daphne, she was looking at him searchingly her eyes questioning. I'll be sixty five in two months time Art, it's time for a move, they'll be a lot of time on my hands. Sixty five burst out Art, I didn't think you were anything near that anywhere near that age. Well I am. Daphne's look was indecipherable. But that's not so far off as I am, I thought you were much younger than I. Blushed and took her hand she did not take it away. It puts a different light on things. Does it Art? Toby and Lynn live in Taunton Art observed and Steven's nearby Daphne added. Suddenly the future looked very bright indeed. There... there you go announced the waitress setting two hot plates before them. Art winced at the vocabulary, it was a current phrase he most detested. Daphne chuckled as he gripped his hands. There you go she said. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] What time did you ring me? Well yes I know I tried to pick her up [LAUGHTER] Well yes. [Fred:] This one describes at the end er you stumbled over yourself, she did not take er....... her hand away you know, if you imagine she... if you make it she didn't take her hand away [Ann:] Oh yes, yes. [Fred:] it'll be easier to say. [Ann:] Okay, fine. [Fred:] But otherwise [Ann:] Yes. [Fred:] it was only that you stumbled over it. [Janet:] Right. [speaker001:] Very good. [Fred:] It was excellent. [speaker001:] Oh, I always wonder about that, I never know whether it's correct I mean... it certainly sounds better as you said, she didn't take her hand away, but I always find that when I'm writing something down, I'm torn, if it's dialogue I want to say they didn't, couldn't and all things come in. When you're writing it... it you know [Fred:] Narrative. [speaker001:] Narrative, I always wonder whether you should not or [Fred:] Well it depends on the context of the piece I think, I mean if you're dealing with fudd fuddy duddy old people you know who speak you know very precisely, then obviously you'd keep it the one. If you're talking about youngsters and in a modern i in... then in fact abbreviations like that are quite commonly used now in narrative and dialogue... and of course in dialogue I mean [speaker001:] Well in dialogue it's fine, you can use almost any sort of a figure of speech, but... with narrative it's it was always understood that the words would be spelled out more words would be spelled out more yes. and if you used abbreviation like he'd [spelling] H E apostrophe D [] that was in... that was allowable in the thought... process. Yes As though you know erm... after all head known all about it this is the to himself and by doing that then abbreviated then, that's when the reader was supposed to take it as a thought process rather than a... Yeah. [Fred:] Er it was... I the only... thing that that brought it to mind was Ann herself stumbled over it as she said it you know playwright [speaker001:] Well I wonder if it's I wonder if it's one of those things that I mean she's reading the story aloud, I wonder if you were reading that story as as well [Fred:] Yeah as well [speaker001:] You read it very quickly and... and it would almost he had it would be he'd or whatever it is that the word was you know that y you Yes, that doesn't flow does it. Yeah. [Fred:] Mm. [speaker001:] Sorry I've got to go. Oh. Shame Are you going medical Are you going now? Yeah. I mean you'll come back [LAUGHTER] What is this thing March I can't remember the exact date erm Can you get me the date round then? Yeah I will do. All. No, no. Er see you all. [Fred:] Okay, bye. [speaker001:] Bye. [Fred:] Bye-bye. [speaker001:] Cheerio. Bye. Bye Kath. [Fred:] How long did that take you Ann? [Ann:] Ten minutes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] was it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I find that absolutely... because you know my stories... I can only write so much and then I stop and think about then and then I write some more. It's so difficult to add up the... the hours, but I mean it's a number of days of course it's not working solidly you know, maybe only for an up an hour or an hour. [Fred:] Well once I've got you know once I've got the shape of the story in my mind I can it down in an hour or so every time you know it's... in long hand, then it takes me hours to type it but er... you know the actual once I've got the idea I... I find it necessary to get it all down you know in long hand as quickly as possible.... Right the other thing Ann you you really must get given you pieces of titles you know because that should steer you into it you know the title should be... be the first peg you hang your hat on, that's the first thing. [Ann:] I suppose I could it Spring and to Taunton [LAUGHTER] rather than Spring and Autumn [Fred:] Yes or something like that yeah [Ann:] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] Right, Cybil your go. [Cybil:] Janet's found her glasses. [Fred:] Oh, sorry, Janet [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] Okay Janet. [Janet:] Pass me over.... Our great minds thought alike today. [Fred:] What's that? [Janet:] Well there's this David Thomas Charitable Trust in Writers News... for a story of s between sixteen and eighteen hundred words with the theme Pride goes before a Fall. [Fred:] Oh yeah? [Janet:] So I whipped out something I've done eleven hundred words, re-wrote it and it's now seventeen hundred words... about the house. [speaker001:] Yeah? [Janet:] The inanimate objects have been breathed the life into by... It's called For Sale. Elegant and impressive detached residence with large well-stocked garden running down to the river, said the card in the window of the village's estate agent. The house was indeed elegant and certainly impressive, but had an air of haughty arrogance. The passers by stopped to admire her from the large wrought iron gates at the bottom of the drive. She fluttered the strut all and above the windows like eyelashes and all three storeys brick style glowed with pride. The house had been empty for some time now and beginning to feel lonely. Prospective buyers had been shown around, but the house had quickly made up her mind that they were not suitable for such as she. She would know at once when the right people entered the from the moment she looked upon them at the top of the wide staircase. She longed for the time I've just got two in my gardeners. So far though the viewers had not been at all suitable. Some had children that are at an age where there might be a tendency towards vandalism, one of whom had been speedily dealt with by her when he attempted to slide down the oak bannister, kicking her as he went down. He was despatched off the end at great speed and the viewing had to end there and then. A fast exit to the hospital for that lot. She would have no with noevo riche either. not [Fred:] noevo it's nouveau [speaker001:] Nouveau yeah [Janet:] Nouveau. I spelt it wrong that's why [LAUGHTER] I spelt it Spanish [] Nouveau riche either. No here. They would probably knock her insides about to fit in a jacuzzi or the like, not to mention all-night parties and vulgar guests filling every room. No peace and quiet, what a thought. But then she would expl exude an atmosphere, the house could breath evil through her walls if she concentrated hard enough and the smiles would be wiped off the faces of those to whom money was no object. When one of these upstarts had the effrontery to kick her wood panelled walls in the study... I put library in the to see if they were sound, she'd breath such venom through the wall, that his wife shuddered and pulled her fur coat tightly around her, hurrying out of the room saying I wouldn't sleep under this roof for a million. Yes, she would know when to use her charm and warmth, she would know how to use her will-power right vibes when they appear. In the meantime she would continue to give off the appropriate vibes to the unworthy. One more summer term to winter still the house had not looked upon anyone she saw as suitable enough to take on a satisfactory residence within her proud walls, if only she was. Virginia had crept up to her several times trying to be friendly, but each time the house repelled her advances, don't you dare to come near me with those nasty creepy little fingers she smiled, preventing the new young tendrils finding a hold on her walls. Poor Virginia finally collapsed upon herself and quietly died. The flowers of the garden mourned for Virginia Creeper, with nobody to restrain them the flowers had left their beds and were running riot. You've killed her they cried, how could you. How could people admire my form and grace, my naked splendour with that weed clinging and climbing all over me. Yuck, she doesn't even make flowers... and even if she did, she should keep her place in the garden with you lot. The flowers were hurt by these words. What you be without us, they chorused. The house glared down on... on them from her windows, I don't need you. Just you wait until somebody falls in love with me and comes to live here, then it will be off with your heads, your stupid nodding heads she snapped. As winter frost covered the sleeping flowers, the cold silent house was battered by wind and damp by driving rain. Soon the rain began to seep into a hole in the roof where the wind had obligingly removed a couple of slates. She was now damp and depressed, longing for spring to arrive and have someone to talk to again. A wandering tramp climbed into an unlocked ground floor window for a nights sleep out of the icy wind. But the house creaked her floor boards and rattled her windows, moaning with the wind till he picked up his bum and fled into the night shaking with fear as he imagined ghosts. One has one's pride said the house, let him sleep somewhere less grand, he's only a tramp. Eventually the house sensed a excitement of spring in the air, the earth was coming alive again with awakening green shoots peeping through, searching for the warm rays of sunshine. She felt her heart quicken as a car came up the drive and stopped in front of her. This looks promising, a sleek chauffeur driven car. She perked up now. The men that stepped out of the car looked suitable enough at first glance. They stood looking up at her. At last she sighed happily at such a class. She knew she wasn't looking her best at the moment, but they looked the type to know quality when they saw it she thought, as she fluttered he awnings at them, colourless now, tattered and torn by the wind. The men turned and entered her paint-peeled front door. She was bursting with pride and excitement warm and friendly atmosphere as the men wandered from room to room, listening the agent stressing the possibilities of the property. Where are you all off too? We're all running down to the river like you said, they may not find us down there. Tell the others when they awake and they can follow us. Goodbye house. Seeing there was an empty space where the flowers had been... Oh dear me, who can I talk to now, I've been abandoned, left in the lurch, not even a bird to talk to or call my friend. Birds have long since given up trying to nest in her eaves. The space where the flowers had been soon became a thriving mass of weeds. Ivy was the first to reach her walls, unlike little Virginia she wasn't having any nonsense from the proud house. Ivy crept slowly up the walls before the house had even noticed she was there. The nettles were bolder, they bravely marched right up to her very door bringing their friends the docks with them. Soon the dandelions came, all they cared about was blooming, getting their white clocks and blowing their babies far away. They ignored the threats of the house and from everything else, it was just a place to grow. Just you wait and see what's going to happen to you said the bewildered house, weed killer for the lot of you that's what. My people will soon be moving in here. After a few months of wrestling unsuccessfully with the strong weeds, the house was delighted to see activity in the grounds. Men and machinery arrived with a great deal of noise and bustle. They've started to restore my beauty at last she signed with relief. Well dressed men were once again looking up at her, there was also some scruffy ones she noticed, but decided to ignore them. She drew herself up and began fluttering her ragged eyelashes, like an old actress living in her past glory. So intent was she on making a good impression, she failed to see a crane coming towards her. A great shudder went through the old house, as with a sickening crunch the weight hit her front wall. With a gasp of pain and surprise she doubled up. The elegant impressive residence fought to retain her dignity and slowly collapsed upon herself. There was a groan, a sign and then silence. The old houses give you the creeps don't they Bill? Yeah, did you hear that noise hey? Makes you feel like a murderer sometimes this job don't it? Yeah, gives you the willies. Come on then, let's get the rest of it down before we start going daft. Before they could start again there was a sound of breaking glass. One of the young labourers had thrown a brick through a window, the part of the house still standing. Oih you can pack that lark in, Bill was furious. The young lad looked up at them and laughed, what's up with you it's gotta come down innit? Yeah, but give the old girl a bit of respect son. The boy tipped back his yellow helmet and scratched his head. You've been in this job too long mate, you're going senile. Bill laughed, come on Harry let's get this lot down. They hesitated, looked at each other a bit sheepishly and Bill songed away... Just a Little Less Harder Than Before. [Fred:] You had about half a dozen endings there. Did you notice that, you could of you could have ended about you know the last the last six sentences, you could have ended [Janet:] I know [LAUGHTER] I could of there wasn't enough words. [Fred:] N, it's... very good Yeah, heard it before you know. [Janet:] Very good, you've heard that [clears throat] it was eleven hundred words, I spoke six hundred [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ah. [Fred:] That's very good. [Janet:] So I've added it in the middle, rather than at the end. [speaker001:] Yeah, I say, it doesn't, doesn't stick at you, where you or anything. No. [Fred:] No. [speaker001:] or where you've put them in, it's flowed still. [Janet:] Yeah, I just pu put in the... house prospective buyers rather than just saying [Fred:] What are you doing with it there's a competition for what, for a monologue? [Janet:] No, no it's a... it's for erm... on... er er on the theme of Pride [Fred:] Of Pride before a Fall [Janet:] Pride before a Fall. [speaker001:] Oh, yes. [Fred:] Oh, it's really good, yeah it's really good, yeah. [Janet:] So I've left that out. [Fred:] That's excellent yeah, oh yeah. [Janet:] [LAUGHTER] Then I thought oh, that as it is and was eleven hundred words like with no [Fred:] No, you should in a chance with that, that's really good I thought. [Janet:] Most of it I bunged it back together [Fred:] last page Janet [Janet:] Then I re-thought about it and thought oh, I might as well have a go. [speaker001:] I think it's very original [Fred:] Yeah really worth the try that, it's really good. [Janet:] Well it's five hundred pounds, so it's worth a [LAUGHTER] try []. [Fred:] Oh well. Right. [speaker001:] if anyone's interested there's another coming out on marriage, so if you want to write a poem, send it off. No, erm poetry now, bringing out another book so Oh I see got the other one on marriage. Oh I see, on marriage. It's on marriage now, but I've only got the one application form. You can... or you may even be able to ring them up and say. That came with my magazine.... Right. I've got it. Yes. I'm just going to read one that's already been published and it doesn't matter if I read it again. Bag Lady [LAUGHTER] I don't mind. The Bag Lady, there's a strange cardboard city the length of the Strand, with people extending or begging hand. For a cup full of tea or a small can of coke, picking up dog ends to get a cheap smoke. The businessmen rushing for trains everyday would throw down some coins where these poor wretches lay. The hand-outs were vital to get them a bite, to help them survive in their pitiful plight. Betsy was lucky she had many friends who relished her company by Old Father Thames, where they all congregated when evening came round, cuddling in clusters all over the ground. Several milk crates of the plastic design will be turned upside down facing a line. For they soon simulated a luxury bed where Betsy could happily place her forehead. Sometimes old Betsy would wander the parks, as hungry for bread as the pigeons and larks, she's scavenge through each of the large litter bins, or anything left in packets or tins. Wherever she went she carried her bag with her personal belongings down to every last rag. A bit of a burden, but she treasured it all, he wealthy possessions screwed up in a ball. In the summer the scene as the sun slowly sank, gave reflections in pink from the long river bank. And the drop-outs enjoying the lovely warm season, when asked why they stay there said this was the reason. But winter was hell with the temperature low and strong winds and rain and occasionally snow. They try to keep warm these tramps and old hags, with the lucky ones owning their own sleeping bags. One morning a policeman while out on his beat, examined some rubbish from which poked two feet. The body inside it was frozen he saw, poor Betsy would wander the city no more. That was in the Poetry published. Yes. [LAUGHTER] That's my lot. Are you sending this again to the... No, it's already published, but if it's gonna be [Fred:] [cough] [speaker001:] Sign away your copyright, I don't care, cos I've already had it published. [LAUGHTER] Dos it erm... did you... is that in our anthology as well? No, that is in just the Yes Yes. Yes. That was all. [Fred:] [whistling] [speaker001:] Don't look at me. Oh! I haven't done it, well I haven't done any, I have done some, Oh. Because Do you con will you continue that story that I listened to a week before cos I wasn't here last week Yes,I I haven't I... I did half er sort of half finished it. I really must finish the rest of it which I haven't done at the moment, because I've been doing other things. Right. [Fred:] [whistling] [speaker001:] We're gonna get on with the [Fred:] Yeah, come on who's next, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Fred:] Sorry, no I was miles away, you've... you've not... you've not done any more? [speaker001:] I haven't brought it with me. [Fred:] Oh, well. plenty of writing that, how many pages is that? four [LAUGHTER] four thousand [] [speaker001:] Er two hundred. Two hundred. Nine hundred and sixty seven words that takes about five or six minutes to read it if I can read it in this light. [Fred:] Hang on let me join [speaker001:] Yes [Fred:] How's that, that better? [speaker001:] That's all right. Call this er a Waste of Life. Oh that's me. The court room at the Old Bailey was hushed dock went in for the jury to return for their verdict. They had been out all morning considering the case. A statement charged with murder the trial having lasted five days. Waiting seemed endless, he was sure that a guilty verdict would be returned. Although the evidence was purely circumstantial, he knew that he had committed this the gravest of crimes. His past life went prosecution of the defence. He had been in trouble for the most part of his life, the eldest of the poor working class family of seven children, he had always been the black sheep. Until he was seven his life at home though poverty stricken had not been too bad. However, at the numbers of the family increased he was more than often ignored. John started getting into trouble at the age of nine stealing from shops. Visits to school were few and far between and it was not long before his parents washed their hands of him. Soon he landed in the juvenile court and was placed into care [tape ends]

[speaker001:] Er, before we start, I would like to say that we have received a request er, I think it was from Longman Dic tories er Dictionaries to have er, one of our meetings recorded, and er, after discussing with the leader of the Council, er and er we decided that that this may be the best committee to record. Basically, what it is, they er, want to to computerise a collection of some one hundred million words of written and spoken text, that can used by dictionary compilers which are there just to study the English language. It is all completely confidential. No individuals will be identified, and really it's for the future, er, so you, there may be the opportunity of er, new words, recorded. [LAUGHTER] so, er, with your approval, er Graham has got the er recording aid. There's either one here, where else are they, Graham. [Paul:] That's the only, that's the only one. [Graham:] Is that the only one. [Paul:] I was assured that it will pick everybody up. Erm, just to mention, also, Chair, it, they've asked to deal with the Personnel Sub-Committee Meeting next week as well. [Graham:] I see. Thank you, so we've obviously got to behave ourselves this morning, and act in a proper manner. [speaker001:] shout out [Graham:] Well, I'll turn it that way. Er, so first of all, could we have er, any apologies or substitutes for this meeting. [speaker001:] Chair, there are no apologies for this meeting, that I know of [Graham:] Thank you. The er, first item on the agenda is the minutes of a meeting, fifteenth of October. Can I have your approval of those minutes? Good. Agreed. Thank you. The next paper is cash limits, and I believe you're going to take this on. [speaker001:] Yes, er, thank you Chair. I'll say if I knew any Swahili, I was very tempted to s I would would have been very tempted to to use it, in the lights of the er, the dictionary. Er, the the first paper is the er, is the beautiful category in the paper, allocations from the contingency. There are three erm, categories to er the requests for allocations for this meeting, erm, the balance of the contingency currently, is one point seven two nine million pounds. And if the er, requests for approval er, are indeed a a approved, the balance er, remaining for the contingency will be some four hundred and seventy five thousand pounds. The recommendations on the front page, to show the three categories. The first category all relates to er related pay awards. All pay awards are, have been settled at one and a half per cent, and I don't propose to go into any of the the detail. The figures er, for each er, of the settlements, er is shown in the more detailed erm, paper. [cough] I will make brief comments, Chair, on the the two other remainings items, and if I may refer members to the more detailed paper, and firstly to section three, capital accounting by local authorities. [paper rustling] Best local authority accounting practice is er, contained within the code of practice on local authority accounting, erm, which is, is, er, published and maintained by the. Erm, that is, is has been revised with effect from the first of April, nineteen-ninety-four, to incorporate proposals for a new system of capital accounting. Erm, the code does have the force of law, er, and requires local authorities to adopt the new capital accounting system from April nineteen ninety-four. Preparation for the new accounting, capital accounting system, required all our assets to be valued. Currently the er, the County Council's assets, as shown in the balance sheet, have a value of twenty-nine million pounds. Now that of course, is way below the actual value of those assets, er, but it's still over twenty-nine millions because of the previous way in which, erm, the er, capital capital was accounted for. Erm, we need to value those assets, and the cost of back- work being carried out by the London Buildings Consultancy would be nineteen thousand pounds, some twenty pounds per property. There's no budget provision, and as a consequence approval is being sought for that some to come from the contingency. The er, moving on to section four, waste disposal. The contingency originally had provision for some four thousand pounds for waste disposal. That provision was placed in the contingency because it was un felt it was unclear at the time, what the effect on costs would be, of the sale of link waste. In fact, er, an estimated one hundred and sixty three, six forty pounds is required, erm, following on from the sale of link waste, and of that eighty-five thousand pounds wa relates to the legal costs associated with the sale. It seems that there a a a large figure. It is a large figure, but the County Council was breaking er, new ground in the sale of link waste, and it was necessary to engage specialist lawyers, erm,Lond a firm of er, London solicitors er, to assist in the in the process, and members will recall that in fact, the the proceeds from the sale of link waste were four point two million pounds initially, with potentially another four hundred thousand pounds, erm, once certain conditions were satisfied. In addition to that, another one hundred and eighty thousand pounds is required for the on- going maintenance of some closed sites dealing with problems and and also to some legal and consultancy fees in connection with a an after-care dispute. So the total of the four hundred and fifty thousand pounds that is now being requested, it's three hundred and forty-three forty. Erm, and it is, erm the waste disposal sub-committee did resolve at their meeting erm, earlier this month, to request the finance sub- committee to make er, an allocation. If er, members approve the three er, categories of allocation, there will as I said earlier, be four hundred and seventy-five thousand pounds left in the contingency. Thank you Chair. [Graham:] [clears throat] Any comments. [speaker001:] Er, could we just ask er, a couple of questions, Mr Chairman. Is that four seventy-five likely to survive there be any more calls on it. That's the first question. Erm, the second question is, if you hadn't put inflation in this year, Yes, the er, in answer to the er, the the first point, [cough] I do not, er, expect there to be many additional calls on the remaining, on the remainder of the contingency. There may be some, but I would expect that this time sum, er or close to it, will be the final balance, and that, of course, will flow into the general balances of the County Council, and er, a one million pounds was allocated from the contingency, that finance sub-committee in October, to meet the price, er, to meet a prices inflation. Okay. [Graham:] No other comments? You [cough] agreed [] on the recommendations [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. [Graham:] Good. [paper rustling] Paper B. [speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. This paper deals with those er non-target area, er projects. In other words, projects which are not contained within erm, service committee targets. There are some seven in total, and I'll briefly refer to those. The first one, turning over the page, relates to er, grant maintained schools, erm, the fact that erm, the calculation of the indirect maintenance grant is based on last year's percentages. Erm, so, instead of paying for primary schools, eleven point nine per cent, which is the the actual er amount of er indirect support that is provided within the erm, Education Department, and seven that's in relation to primary schools, and seven point eight per cent schools. We have to pay the, er, ninety two, three percentages, which were fifteen point two per cent and nine point eight per cent, so there's an additional element there, and also we have to deal with erm, the additional cash that goes to grant maintained schools, who went grant maintained prior to the first of April nineteen ninety-two. They are protected at the cash additions that they had er,or originally and they are somewhat higher than the erm, actual, erm, indirect per percentages would be. The estimate for ninetyfour, ninety- five, is that there will be some one point three eight five million pounds required, but I er, have to say, that we have not, as in previous years, we have not at this stage received from the D F E er, details of of how the er indirect element of A N G will be calculated for next year, so the requirement may differ er in in due time. Section three, deals with police and fire pensions. Erm, the revised estimate for police pensions is some hundred and nineteen thousand pounds higher than the original estimate. Now that is not as significant an increase as we've had in previous years. There are greater additions to expenditure than that, but there, that has been in part off-set by er, a greater er er receipt from other authorities in relating to er policemen transferring to Lincolnshire. As far as ninety four, five is concerned, erm the, er estimate is some six hundred and eighty- one thousand pounds higher than the the original estimate for this year, and again, there is a mix of factors giving rise to to that. As far as fire-fighters pensions is concerned, the revised estimate is is really significantly higher than the original estimate. Over half a million pounds, and there are three factors that make er up that er sum, a hundred and eighty thousand pounds for the lump sum payment, erm, transfers out to other authorities, that's fire-fighters transferring to other authorities fire services. Two hundred and thirty-one thousand, and we had lower than ex expected receipts from fight-fighters transferring in to Lincolnshire. In total, we estimate that next year, police and fire pensions will cost, gross, nearly seven and a half million pounds. So that, that is a very significant increase on the fi on the amount that er, fairly recently we were having to pay. The next item, specific grants, deals in in main part with specific grant on the police pensions er, element. Erm, but it also deals with erm, police claim office grant on C C that is charged to the police and repair and maintenance, and also related to one or two minor items. Some specific grant on the judges lodgings, the maintenance of that, payable by the Lord Chancellors Department, and so- some specific grant on emergency planning. That's spec this is the final year in which specific grant will be payable on emergency planning. The er, revised estimate is one one hundred and fifty thousand pounds higher than the original estimate, and we're expecting over three hundred thousand pounds into the specific grant and ninety-four ninety- five. The next deals with precepts and the the major precept is that which is paid to the Lincolnshire Floor Defence Committee. Erm, we've got initially some slightly bad news on this, but then some really rather encouraging news. The er, the downside, is that the way of apportioning and contributions to flood defence committees has changed as a result of the introduction of the er, of the council tax. Previously, er, our share depended upon er the population of Lincolnshire as a proportion of the total [cough] area. The basis of apportion which is now the council tax base, and we er, do lose slightly from that change. Section five point two, makes reference to the additional a hundred and ten thousand pounds that was approved in October for erm, er expected budget pressures, in this particular area, and in fact, we have had an eleven thousand pounds refund [cough] refund from the Severn Trent er Flood Defence Committee, so there's only ninety- nine thousand pounds, er the revised estimate is ninety-nine thousand above the original estimate. Now turning to the, the the good news and that is that the Lincolnshire Flood Defence Committee was set to increase after ninety-four, five which is some twenty per cent below the normal three-four level. That, the increa there is an increase over the Wellent er Flood Defence, Wellent and Flood Defence Committee, two and a half per cent, but that as Severn Trent, is set at a zero increase. So the overall [cough] effect on these budgets is that the original estimate is just over seven hundred thousand pounds, the original estimate for ninety four-five is just over seven hundred thousand pounds below the original estimate for ninety-three, ninety-four. Section Six deals with mandatory student awards where the county council acts, if you like, as the administrator on behalf of the the Government, with the payment of student awards. It's expenditure out and then income in from the Government. The, perhaps the the points to make there, is that the bigger the ninety-four, five is er, getting on for four million pounds below the ninety-three, four level, and that reflects, firstly, a reduction in students grants, with a a corresponding increase in the amount available from student loans, and secondly, a reduction in the tuition fees payable as part of the mandatory award, er, in the light of direct, higher direct funding of higher education establishments. Now this, [cough] is er, also, [cough] and this is to do with the interest earned and on revenue balances. The est estimates for er, interest on revenue balances, depends upon anticipating cash flows. The cash into the authority, the timing of that, and the ti the timing of cash going out of the authority. A particular difficulty in trying to estimate the ninety-three, four er position, was erm, stemmed from er, the independence of further education colleges. We were not sure how that would affect the cash flows of the authority, and set a very er cautious level for interest on revenue balances, and as members can see, that has been very well exceeded, er its superseded by some one point one million pounds in ninety-three, four and it's expected to be of a similar level in ninety-four, ninety-five. And, finally, Chair, the the last section, C C within committee budget, erm, this area is where the the costs of providing the central department is recharged to other departments. There's a higher revised estimate, and a higher original estimate for next year, er, that is to do with charging C C to the probation committee, erm, which previously was er,ex excluded, and that is er, of course subjected within the the probation committee cash limit and eighty per cent grant is payable on any sums within that. As far as the public service units are concerned, er, where the amount of C C is a real charge, and can dis disad er disadvantage them significantly, erm, the ninety-two, three charges are reduced by ten per cent, erm, it it it's expected there'll be a further two per cent reduction, so there's a twelve per cent reduction in the C C charges to the public service units. Thank you, Chairman. [paper rustling] [Graham:] The report is for noting. [cough] that they're rather interested in the information contained in it. Just concerned about, you know, we don't know really what the er impact of the grant maintained, er er er er and how how quickly we we we we know what what that is, er er Treasurer, please. [Weller:] Chair, I I don't know, er er, last year, we were in a a similar position. [Graham:] Yes. [Weller:] The January meeting of this committee, we didn't know what the arrangements would be. [Graham:] Mm. [Weller:] I think we got to know around mid-February. So, if if the same pattern is followed, it would be middle of February, before we we we find out what the arrangements will be. [Graham:] The amount of money that we have to pay out, is er obviously detract from the education budget. [speaker001:] On on on that Chair, I think erm, the protection of of the schools that went grant maintained before ninety-two, I think that will continue. [clears throat] But certainly, some progress is being made towards the common funding formula. [Graham:] Mm. [speaker001:] And the financial incentives er, to go grant maintained are rapidly decreasing. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] I do hope we're not going to extend our current lawyers who we use in this particular issue, erm, whatever this amount of money is, is spent in school and er, to that extent I think we should er be well prepared to foot the bill. Chairman, I think the Chair of Education's comments were bias. It has nothing to do with the individual grant maintained schools. What we have to realise, it is taking a disproportion of money, amount of money, out of Lincolnshire's education budget. This this is the concern, and we all know how tight that budge is, and how much we need to put into education accounts. Erm, I think that the comments that Chair made ar are extremely bias, in what she's saying, I think is, that it looks as if, if erm, the minister is beginning to realise this simply can't go on, this this disproportionate funding, and that is what is so unfair, and I think it does need to make quite clear to grant maintained schools, that there is, it, there is that possibility that that will be reduced, because they need to know that just as well, for balancing their own budgets in the future. [Graham:] Any comments. Councillor [speaker001:] Was not, as it were, that's the way the treasurer would use balancing, you've got another million pounds in the. Mind you, I did think last year the grant was down too low, at eight hundred thousand, but that was the amount they put in, it was two point eight, I think, to start with, and two million pounds offered in the end. Which made our budget er, that problem obviously that much more difficult and just showed the problems we live with, Mr Chairman. Which can produce the budget within the guide lines, as we found with interest rates. [Graham:] Pleased you raised that, Councillor, 'cos we're still two million short than the government assessment within the S S A. [speaker001:] Yes, that's right. [Graham:] Which er, you know, adds to the doubt, you're obviously aware of the... Thank you. As I say, the er, it is, it is two million less, than what the government has assessed we should be receiving in interest payments. Just commenting on the er, grant maintained schools. It's not a case of being paranoid, it's a case of seeking fairness for all the school children, and then some of them receiving disproportional, you know higher, er amounts of money, then that must be seen to be unfair, and I'm certainly well supported in that. Are there any other comments on this paper? [speaker001:] Yeah, I just er, like to, just to welcome the ongoing commitment to the Treasurers Department, to keep down the er, charges to the public service units through C E C. Obviously this is to the benefit, and gives them the, a greater chance of succeeding out there, in what is a difficult market place. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] Er, thank you, Mr Chairman, to me erm, this went on from the first paper that chose the effects of the food and management of the er, the fire local services, whereas carried through and it will be interesting to see next year er what the situation is, in order to the position of the as it were, this year, benefit of everything that has previous administration. Well, we've already got some information from Central Government, that that we're ten million short. on the Government. I'm sorry, you know, you've had your say. [Graham:] Any other comments. No. [cough] Give me er, note of the recommendation. [cough] [clears throat] Paper C is the revenue estimates. I believe you were taking this Paul. [Morbey:] Yes, thank you thank you, Chair. This paper seeks your approval for the revised estimate for the current financial year, nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, and the for estimates nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, for the policy commission. [paper rustling] It also seeks your approval to the which has been undertaken by respective chief officers, during the current financial year, in which, is why I'm reporting to you now in accordance with the national regulations. The report itself was in the usual format comprising a report by the county treasurer, a joint report by the chief executive and county treasurer, and then the detailed estimate contained on the blue pages. But let's propose a statement, which through the county treasurer's report in any detail today, it's already been to all service committees and I'm sure you're very familiar with it's contents. What I will do, however, is just draw your attention to two key issues within that report, which affect the estimates of this committee. Having turned then to [cough] page A two. Starting at page A two, paragraph five and nine indicate that there is presently a gap of so of some eleven point four million pounds, between the overall spending limits of three hundred and eighty-one point four million pounds, agreed by the Policy Committee last November, and the provisional cutting limits set by the Government of three hundred and seventy million pounds. At it's meeting last November, the Policy Committee did agree to review the overall spending limits in the light of the final revenue Support Claim Settlement. And the outcome of that that that review will be reported to its next meeting on the eighth of February. Should the review require an adjustment to this committee's target, a further report will be made at the next meeting of this committee on any amendment to that target. The second matter, I would just like to draw your attention to briefly, er, within the treasurer's report, is in paragraph eight. This explains how the target for this committee is being set. As for all other committees, the target for this committee, for nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, allows fully for the effect of inflation from November nineteen ninety-two to November ninety-three. That being the price fixed at which the [cough] was presented. It allows fully also, for known commitments in service. The effect of forward inflation, that's inflation which will be incurred during nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, is not incorporated in this estimate. It will be considered by the Policy Committee again, at it's meeting in February. [cough] In summary, therefore, the estimates before you, er for the Policy Committee, represent the cost of maintaining existing policies and levels of service. If I could turn now, to the joint report of the Chief Executive [cough] and the County Treasurer. This is set out on on page of B one to to B three. [paper rustling] [cough] Page B one covers the er estimate from the Chief Executive's Department. Detailed revised budget target of two point one five nine million pounds is set out in paragraph two, and you'll note that [cough] the main addition to the estimate approved by the County Council last February of one point eight, nine, two. [cough] The County Hall Department are spending from nineteen ninety-two, ninety-three, [cough] this amounted to a hundred and eighty thousand four hundred and ten pounds. Further addition has been made of seventy two thousand pounds for service and negatives, introduced by the Department bill, and approved by the Policy Committee last June. Paragraphs five to seven, explain the compositions the nineteen ninety-four and ninety-five target of tw two point oh, one eight million pounds. This again, starts with the original estimate for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, of one point eight nine two million pounds, and details of changes agreed by the Policy Committee last November. This allows for repricing of the budget for November, nineteen ninety-two, to November nineteen ninety-three, and that sum is shown there as some fifty- seven thousand pounds. This includes, also, an amount of thirteen thousand five hundred, er to support the scheme for public questions, which was approved by the Policy Committee last November. If we turn now, to page B two, [paper rustling] this presents the information for the County Treasurer's Department for the same format. For those of nineteen ninety- three, ninety-four, and nineteen ninety-four and ninety-five. Starting with nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four. Again, the main additions of the original estimate is that the carried forward of two hundred and forty-four thousand pounds from nineteen ninety-two, ninety-three. And approval for this was given by this Committee last October. Paragraph eleven, detailed for your approval of from income generated by re- charges to internal funds. And this is being used to fund the cost of the Risk Manager post. Again this was reported to you at the last meeting of this Committee. Erm, and also the cost of increased fidelity guarantee insurance of eleven thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds, and additional suppliers and services costs, principally in respect of consultancy costs arising out of the Inland Revenue Audit of twelve thousand, seven hundred and fifty pounds. Turning to nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, er, paragraph thirteen, details of budget target of two point five, four, oh, million pounds. The main addition to the original estimate in the in the case of nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five being the cost of repricing from the November ninety- two price costs, to November nineteen ninety-three, at seven hundred and one thousand pounds. Moving on, erm, paragraphs fifteen to twenty-one,com cover a number of miscellaneous budgets under the wing of the Policy Committee, detailed, described as other policy. Paragraph sixteen explains the revised target of one point one one seven million pounds, which mak, which makes provisioning for the costs in the current year of operating the university company. These costs amounting to some, seventy thousand pounds in nineteen ninety-three, ninety- four. It also makes provisions for meeting redundancy costs within public service units, in respect of work which they have lost in competition. Paragraph eighteen, makes reference to the receipt of fifty-three thousand pounds of income. This is the County Council's share of the expose surplus for nineteen ninety- two, ninety-three. It also points out in in in in the report, that this income has been to meet expenditure of thirty-two thousand pounds for the number of services, and the remainder of this, has been with additional insurance costs. Paragraph twenty, provides details of the nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five budget target policy. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Morbey:] Which was reported in paragraph twenty-one, includes a reduction of two hundred and thirty-two thousand two hundred pounds for the cost of the nineteen ninety-three County Council elections. And this reduction was partially off-set by the costs of a hundred and thirty-one thousand pounds, again the the cost, this being the cost of operating a university company in nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. Finally, Chair, if I can just ask members to turn briefly to page C one, the first blue page. [paper rustling] This page summarises the service area under, within the Policy Committee. The original estimate nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, that's shown in column three, [speaker001:] [cough] [Morbey:] It then provides analysis of inflation and other changes, leading to both revised estimates for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four and the estimate for nineteen ninety-four, ninety- five. For this committee, therefore Severn we've been asked to approve a revised estimate of five point nine five five million pounds, and an estimate next year of five point four, six, seven million pounds. Details of these estimates is is provided in pages C two to C eleven, and I don't propose to go through those in any detail. But I'll be quite happy to answer any questions that members have. The recommendations, Chair, that you approve the estimate for, the revised estimate for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four. The estimates for nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, and the guidelines set out in the report for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four. Thank you. [paper rustling]. [Graham:] Do you agree with those? Councillor [speaker001:] I wouldn't know. People were coming in with questions on our first little bit hesitant debate. This is er, a relatively er, small revenue er budget compared to er, the Service Committee's recent week. Nevertheless, it is erm, set once again, in the er context of the overall County Council budget proposal for next year being three hundred and eighty one million pound. That was an overall estimate that erm, members on this side, apposed very vigorously when it was first put forward in policy, and that any budget er, proposals put to committees that er, based on that false premise, erm, would also er be criticised and erm, opposed by this side. It takes no account of the er er government requirements for er this coming year, and having said that, I I must accept that the overall increase proposed for erm, ninety- four, five, er is only three point three per cent. Erm, only three point three per cent. Well, in my sums that comes to er, something like er, fifty per cent more than it ought to be. Erm, and if we look at individual erm, items. When we look at the Chief Executives Department, the increase there is what, six point six per cent overall. That's a factor of something like three hundred per cent than it, than it ought to be in terms of inflation and the County Treasurer's budget of plus five per cent which is well in excess of two hundred per cent. So I think you can see that erm, there is er, not a very strong basis there for this er budget to be promoted by this side. We oppose it. [Graham:] You wish to put forward any amendments to the way you have put. [speaker001:] I I I I think the amendment will be slope opposite to the er, to the recommendations, I don't think it requires an amendment. [Graham:] Without any information as to where, how you would reduce it. [speaker001:] I think... No. [Graham:] Okay, fine. [speaker001:] The principles underlined, document, [paper rustling] this project are er coarse, you would say, and for that reason we oppose it. [Graham:] Good. [speaker001:] Mr Chairman, if we come in now, million pounds [Graham:] Oh, is that, is that proposal seconded, first. [speaker001:] It is. [Graham:] It has been seconded. Yes. [speaker001:] Now that's stated in the blue paper, you might want to talk about [Graham:] Well, you've got the opportunity now, if you wish. [speaker001:] Well, it's the case of [Graham:] I'm sorry, I'm chairing the meeting. I'm sorry,yo yo you you're not listening to me. [speaker001:] I am listening to you. [Graham:] The the the treasurer has already gone through the report. It is now up to members, to make observations, ask questions, and then an amendment has been put, which is er, accompanied to, direct negative over the recommendations. [speaker001:] Well, the Treasurer, is responsible at the end of the day for reducing the price of overall. So the question that I would like to ask the Treasurer, and the statement was made by been allowed. Has there been any attempt by anybody to real budget or has [cough] there been in the department, just put them together, their demands and each of them papers. Chief Exec. up six per cent, Treasurer Department the same. No doubt this goes through. Education the other day was up about five or six per cent. I mean, I'm gonna protest, because I'm gonna vote a protest and commitments are area where some will be allowed and some won't be allowed. It depends on what they are organise the things they need. There hasn't been any attempt about savings, or reduced commitments or any, or everything is here, and if it hasn't been attempts, perhaps we could have a list of what's actually been removed. [Graham:] Did you wish to? [speaker001:] Yes, erm, thank you Chair. The process that was followed in preparing the, which was exactly the same process as being followed in previous years. It started with these exercise in July and August, which sought to identify erm, commitments required to maintain existing services. It also sought to i identify opportunity to efficiency and effectiveness savings. So exactly the same process was followed. At a subse subsequent st stage again, as has happened in the in the past, inflation was added, and that was fully to reprice from November ninety-two to November ninety-three prices. So yet again, the budget was reflecting the amount of money necessary to maintain existing services. Now th the the the way in which the budget has been prepared in previous years, has been maintain existing services. So, in that respect, there is no difference in the preparation of this budget, er in comparison with the previous years. The result of all the calculations including er commitments, er necessary, for example for additional pupils, erm, lead to an overall budget requirement of three hundred and eighty-one point four million pounds. To maintain existing levels of service, and that was the the budget that was approved by the Policy Committee in November, but, with the rider that the erm, the the overall budget would be review reviewed in January in the light of the Revenue Support Grant Settlement, and that still is the position. [Graham:] Thank you. [speaker001:] The the statement that all commitments has been allowed, isn't Commitments... written, you say, all commitments have been ensured. Yes. Commitments necessary for the maintenance of existing levels of service Right. Well that necessary, at least ways to augment this. No, they were saying totally different. [Graham:] I think you've question that far enough. You've had your answer. You asked, how would it be prepared? It, you've, it was be prepared on the same basis as last year, in fact, the other [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] We went through it with a fine tooth comb. We found all the little bits and pieces, the er, er, idiosyncrasies of how it had been prepared previously by yourself, And er, we're quite satisfied with the process that has taken place. Probably more thorough and more searching than ever. I don't particularly want to go [speaker001:] Exactly. All I'm trying to say [Graham:] Sorry, that was, I'm sorry, you've spo I'm sorry you've spoken, I'm just commenting will you be quiet please, I'm taking next speaker. [speaker001:] Well, [Graham:] Will you be quiet. You can ya, you can come in here later. Did you wish to? [speaker001:] Mm. Thank you, yeah. I just referred Councillor Wild to paragraph eleven on page A three, because, it it does say reasonably clearly, I think, that the Policy Committee resolved to review the overall level of spending in January nineteen ninety-four in the light of the Revenue Support Grant Settlement. We had, we had to conservative speakers so far, erm, and Councillor Brock seem to me, in a sense to be summing up that phrase about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing, because there was the the the es essential arithmetical calculation about percentages, and savings. No mention about the difficult task that the County Council's got in living within a budget, a capping level of three hundred and seventy million, and it would be reasonable, in in a, in a, in a sense that when somebody's proposing opposition to a budget, it gives some indication as to what within the budget, would have to be cut. It's not really helpful to be able to say, that the amount of money is too great, to refer to percentage increases which are higher than the figure that would have been included by erm erm an opposition group. But not actually to say, what what what would be the outcome of the percentage cuts. Of course, it's quite right, and it's it's in a sense maybe reasonable to oppose a budget, but in the past, I think it's been erm, one of the strengths of the labour group, when in opposition to put alternative budgets in for say, yes, we take a view that's different to the budget that's before us, but so far with two conservative speakers, we've not had the benefit of knowing which items, which levels of of spending within this policy committee, be it the Chief Exec. Department or the County Treasurer's Department is not considered to be relevant to the needs of erm, the County Council, the people of Lincolnshire, and I think it's reasonable to ask that question, and to hope that erm future conservatives speakers in this meeting, on this paper will give a clear indication as to what will be the effects of a budget reduction. Chairman, er, can I very briefly reply to what Councillor Parker has said, and then come on to my erm, uncontroversial question about our... Erm, I think now is not the time to give a detailed reply to this. No. conservative administration will change the budget, obviously, you have highlighted in what you have said before, that the main crunch will come at the next Policy Committee. I think that is the time that we would er, wish to put forward er a detailed alternative, or seek alternatives. So far as to my specific erm, question is on B one, on the white paper, [paper rustling] or other target, the public question, thirteen thousand, five hundred pounds of money you do say in the subsequent paragraph, this is to provide public question time at Council meetings. Is that all that that thirteen thousand five hundred is targeted for, and that is for the four meetings of the County Council each year, when there will be a public er question time. [Graham:] Could I, I I I will answer that. If you read further on, it does say, Committee and sub-Committees, to encourage involvement. In that paragraph. Have you answered that question. [speaker001:] Er, what Councillor Newton's just said, I would just like to ask for a clarification there, if I may. Is he guaranteeing to tell us where everyone of the cooks is going to come at the next Policy Meeting. Is it being proposed? Well. No. [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] That was easy. [speaker001:] Mr Chairman, rapidly respond to Councillor Parker, you are the administration, this is your budget, Yeah. This is your budget. Had it been in administration, we would have put forward to our budget. But I mean, you are being totally unrealistic in putting a budget forward, of three hundred and eighty one million er, for the County Council. I mean, that is not at all relevant to the policies of the previous authority. These are your policies, they're not our policies. And er, you know, you've got yourself in this mess, get yourself out of it. Education Yes, right. [Graham:] We don't consider we're in a mess. I would remind you that this is the budget for the policy. [speaker001:] Yeah, true. I mean, when we was in opposition, if er, if we had a Westminster crisis in Lincolnshire and it suddenly kicked all the conservatives off, we would have been able to come up with an alternative budget to manage this county. Now I think it's only fair and right that the conservatives are doing as er, should be doing the same. But they are [Graham:] Will you be quiet, please, sir. [speaker001:] All they are proposing... is, we're, well, all they're doing is opposing, we oppose this, we oppose this, we oppose this, they're coming up with no information, that the people of Lincolnshire can judge them on. And I think it's unfair of them, I think it's irresponsible of them to just criticise detailed budgets that are well thought out like ours, like ours always were [LAUGHTER] I have nothing, and to have nothing to offer the people of Lincolnshire as an alternative. It's just rhetoric, in a way, [cough] irresponsible rhetoric. Perhaps they don't know what to do. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] Yeah, I think, I I sympathise on what the er, new opposition, because I think, it does take some time to particularly after you've [LAUGHTER] been in opposition for the last, well, for the for the for the rememberable future, You should and er, I think that er, er I I I'm quite interested an and really quite amused, if I once gone on proceedings of this council, because every time a a new initiative has been proposed, you have said, oh yes, we were going to do that. [LAUGHTER] Yes []. In any case, we er and we want er no opposition to it, and in fact I I was surprised we owned a pack a pack of goodies [cough] in the transportation planning committee yesterday, and the, one of the question of opposing them, it was what was going to block, that they,wh wha were they members, gonna get for their pockets and their own patches, and er, I I think, so I mean, I asked a a a councillor, well I asked a question on five per cent for me yesterday, and my response was, yes, precisely. Now, if you're going to er er er er want everything and then at the same time, want to reduce the budget, then I think you're like the man who wanted a cake an and you'll find that he wanted to eat it, so I think you've got to come to terms and be realistic. And so it would be most interesting to see what sort of patent you can come up with for policy, and and and and and and we'll see just just how you'll meet that. I shall have other things to see, later on, Chair. What other information, Mr Chairman, he didn't say that at all yesterday. What he said was he was waiting for the government for better [Graham:] Ca ca ca can I say. Councillor councillor it is not a final information [speaker001:] he's telling lies [Graham:] I'm I'm sorry, and I'd rather we didn't use that sort of language, 'cos you remember you are being recorded. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] He was referring to something that happened yesterday, and we're here, We're here today, discussing the policy and we'd like to stay with that. [speaker001:] That's right, an answer the question. [Graham:] Very good. [speaker001:] He's a [Graham:] Okay, you've answered it now. Any other questions or comments? Councillor [speaker001:] Well, Mr Chairman, I think er, you know, it's all right putting forward a budget like this, but there's only one person who got paid for it, and that's the general public. And er, I think that there are people who are a little wet behind the ears if they think that the general public are going to accept the costs of a budget that's coming forward on a long these lines. And er, you know, I know we're looking at one particular committee. [Graham:] And I would ask you to direct your questions to that, because there's an another time and another place when you can talk and er discuss, and put forward proposals regarding the councils overall budgets, so I would ask you to concentrate on this, but. [speaker001:] Yeah, well, right. There are, there are starting points which we, the opposition party would have started from, and it is not from er, er the the same er, erm, [cough] that you have arrived at, that we would have arrived at. There are differences within. Erm, you know, for for instance, as Councillor speak Newton has just said, that there's [cough] thirteen thousand five hundred. The there are other things, which er we Mm. would have presented a very good budget for and a lot of other commitments. Are you opposing the thirteen thousand? I I don't mind, but I'm opposing, as like the rest of us the budget in I think you, Mr Chairman, it would be totally improper if we did not raise the issue within the within the budget if we did not raise the issue of election members and the expenses of election members. We did, at the time, when the expenses were incurred, we gave it, that we were opposed to all the increases that were being made, we still maintain that policy, and I believe that there is a time when we should be be in approval, that we in fact, expending money on new active members is wrong, when in fact, have the cut backs, because at the end of the day, people of Lincolnshire have to pay for these additional expenses incurred to elected members. [Graham:] You've heard [end of tape] [speaker001:] to inform members generally of the level of settlement in the County Councillors under the transport, E F P grants arranged. Overall the level of settlement was disappointing as the summary on the paper recalls. Sample. Erm, grant comes at a rate of fifty per cent that have accepted it as expenditure. It may be in in one or two forms, erm, cash, or expected expenditure. erm, by the grants of credit approvals, either basic or supplementary, which is A that facilitating a council spending money on the programmes which the D T P have accepted. Overall, if one aggregates those three things, the level of settlement for the county was down thirty- one per cent on the year, compared with a national total, which was also in distress of fourteen and a half per cent down. The settlement does reflect some change in government policy and the areas of expenditure, which have previously attracted direct grant, are now being met through the grant accredits approvals, which do ultimately bring cash to the council, erm, because they keyed into assets aims, and the revenues court-room mechanism. But over a period of time, erm, they are not directly equivalent, but very nearly so. It is just information, Chairman, that the amounts in the various categories that are recorded within the paper and I think probably [Graham:] Thank you. I realise this information, it's very depressing information. [speaker001:] I think it it was a it it was a very bad er announcement for Lincolnshire, and er, on the strength of that, er, for the benefit of all of us in the county, I just like to lobe a few, as a minister for roads and traffic, er expressing our bitter disappointment really, 'cos it's er, particularly on the T S G, it's a, it's a cut of of er, of forty five per cent against the er er er national cut of of of of of of about half of that. And and and and across the board there has been a cut of er, er of of of just below fifteen per cent, that that the that er er, our cut is forty five per cent, and and I mean, it er, it it it does er er create problems, there's no doubt about it, and that I I got the letter from er which er, Rod instructed to come along to the department to me yesterday, in fact, I did refer very briefly to it, 'cos I'm gonna just before the meeting that er er it it sets out saying that it was a very generous set settlement for ninety-three, ninety-four. Now, of course, we we know that that you know, that that that that er, that even then, part of that settlement has has gone because they've cut off on the of the Western by-pass, I mean, you've still got er, er [cough] quite a substantial, er amount of money which has got to be financed from my own funds on that. And er, I did er, er invite members, all members yesterday, and I do have a feed-back here, again, that they do write to lobby on behalf of us, because I, if this is going to be the patent for the future, it's gonna have very serious implications as to what we do in terms of improving the highway infrastructure at Lincolnshire. And this is at a time, of course, when we have other doors opening to us, which we shall need match funding, objective rural Dent, and er, er for the for the for the budget to be, it to have been cut in this way, is is is is very serious. The problem is that the, the present er er er er formula for road pricing, cobra, cobra as it is called. I think sometimes it would be better to call it cobra because it does seem to have a very er er deadly sting as far as Lincolnshire's concerned at the moment. Er, doesn't er er, is based on congestion, and and and and other factors, and it doesn't address the er, the the needs we have er in developing this county, and and to achieve it's er it's potential. I think there is. We are at [cough] a point at the moment, with the life of the county, I think that we should great potential and great opportunity available to us, and I do hope that all members will er, and I've written to all our members of parliament with a copy of my letter, er, I had I've had er, I know it's been the Christmas period, and that they're only just getting back into things, and there's been a lot of diversions at length, and I do have a letter from, er I heard from er, Edward, er, Mr Edward Lee, and and, I still have to hear it from er, the rest of them. I have had a message from the Stan Standard Mercury, from Davis, that my a county has been hysterical, we've talked about being paranoid one time this morning. But he [cough] he says we're hysterical. Well, if he lived in the north- east, er part of this county, that great ar area where there is very little in terms of infrastructure perhaps er er it's a pity we can't have a few more hysterics and we would perhaps get further down the road. Thank you, Chairman Thank you, Mr Chairman, erm, I'm here to say, it's quite true to say that it does vary from year to year, on er, what our programme is, but er, we we also have to face it, that er,com compared with some other areas, both east midlands and nationally, we do not have the traffic, and this does go against our for T A. Er, the the traffic on our roads [cough] Although it's very dense, does not compared with the likes of Kent and the south. But er, yes er, I would have been er, I think if I'd still been in Jim's place, er quite rightly so, getting all that we can for the town. But it does vary from year to year. Thank you, Mr Chairman, erm, I find this absolutely staggering, this settlement. Erm, over the last few months, we've been over our administration, attacked, saying that we don't care about the rural communities, only the conservative party care about the rural communities, that's what we've been told. And then we get a conservative central government, er, cutting the er, funding for the most sparsely pos populated county in the country, not by the same as the rest of the country, but by thirty-one per cent. Over double. Now, something's slightly wrong there, erm, it shows that there is a lot of hypocrisy within the conservative party, er, double standards right the way across the board. Secondly, erm, I'd like to ask o ask the question as well, erm, regarding the transfer from central government grants to S C A's. Could it, could people please stop conferring a minute, er, that is actually the government, saying that they no longer gonna give grants, their going to give us the right to borrow, and are actually encouraging us to do it. that is the effects, I mean they will still give grant, but indirectly through the revenues for and it will be spared but, for a number of years, you can't be absolutely precise about how long. [clears throat] [Graham:] we note a what, a hundred and thirty million pounds worth of road planned for this county. Every one of them that they were gonna do next year. Every time [speaker001:] No, no, no. No, no, no. [Graham:] We've had [speaker001:] [cough] we get a savage thirty-one ke cent, thirty-one per cent reduction, and what do we get, a tiniest whimper from the previous chairman of the committee. Oh well, there's reasons for it. And yet, I can bet that every time, Jim has his committee meeting, they're gonna be hammering on the door, for some by- pass, or some road scheme that they would have done. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Absolutely every one they would have done. That's right. [Graham:] Give him the floor. [speaker001:] And what are they doing about it. What they doing for the people of Lincolnshire. Are they gonna go down to see their friends, at Central Government, and say, come on, this thirty-one per cent is totally unacceptable. What they gonna do about it? They took u is that it. Is that the soul er contribution we're gonna get from this conservative group. Well, you know, we have got, haven't got quite the traffic that other places have got. And they're just gonna leave us to deal with it. They're letting the people of Lincolnshire down. That's right. [Wyle:] Well, when did we ever ask you, the labour and liberal vice, to come down to Westminster with us, Mr Chairman. That's one of but we but we never did, we all went down, and sometimes we did and sometimes we didn't Part of er, was on about, is that in ninety-five, ninety-six highways by four million quid. Erm, and it was so, it's obviously as good as it was, you know, I think you could resign as chairman, if actually at all, so. [speaker001:] a burden of a hundred and thirty million pounds. [Wyle:] We would have funded that over ten years. [speaker001:] funded. Yes, I heard you, yes, I heard you say the other day, and also did read in the press, where you've been quoted, Councillor Warby, that you would build various by-passes and no doubt you will be putting, I haven't yet heard any amendments to the capital goal. I did sit in yesterday at Transport Exec and Planning, but no doubt they will be forthcoming Mr. Chairman, did I hear correctly that, that the hundred and thirty million would have been funded over ten years. Ridiculous So can you tell us, please, where the additional ten million We only went through Sorry, Mr Chairman, where the additional ten million cuts would have been made to fund that. Well cuts need it. Yeah, I'm pleased that this erm, statement, I think it was in capital monitoring a few weeks ago by Councillor Wyle, is now out into the public domain, [cough] because capital monitoring was a a a closed committee. The hundred and thirty pounds that Councillor referred to, is the, are the schemes in totality. A hundred and thirty million. A hundred and thirty [shouting] million [] around the county, you know the Lincoln relief road, the eastern relief road, stage one, twenty-five million, the stage two another eight million. Boston... The list goes on until we get to a total of a hundred and thirty million. Councillor said that that that that hundred and thirty million could be funded over a period of ten years, at thirteen million pound a year. Now, that is something, that one would find difficult to accept normally, erm, but seeing as our Councillor has been chair of transportation, I believe in the past and also leader of the County Council, that then it it does make one wonder about erm,bud bud budgeting and raising expectations of people around the county unnecessarily. We we've noted the way that every time there is a local issue about a particular road scheme, that the conservatives immediately say, we would have done that next year. Th the will be other new schemes that were, not yet come forward, because the local media have not, erm, addressed a particular area, but as soon as it does in March or April, then the town conservatives would have done that next year. And the, and the list goes on. I think that the point, has to be made that when we've had a transport supplementary grant decision and settlement as poor as this one, then it really is about trying to protect and enhance the people of Lincolnshire and the road network, rather than just for once, party politics, because I can't honestly believe that the conservatives would actually, feel that this is a fair, reasonable settlement. I mean, to be quite honest about it, it's a, it's an unsatisfactory settlement, from whichever political party that you come from, and it's about time, perhaps, the conservatives recognised that you can't support a national government policy that does as much damage to the people of LIncolnshire as this transport supplementary grant settlement has done. Could I just correct you on that, I think it was acknowledged by this vote, er for transport plan settlement. I... yes. I... You know. I... I would have made an oasis, and I would have er tried to achieve a better settlement [Graham:] That is accepted, and in fact we No... I'm sorry, no. [speaker001:] Information [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] Well, Councillor very briefly, in response to Councillor referred the same sort of thing from yourself er, chairman, on on numerous occasions. I think it's about time that you stopped bleating. I think it's about time that you stopped blaming, and I think it's about time that you started accepting re le responsibility that you are in it and getting on and making this council. [Graham:] Thank you. We shall accept full responsibility for everything we do. [speaker001:] It it does concern me, Chairman, David, Councillor Morbey has just said, I would have made noises, and I would have attempted to get a better settlement. Why won't he do that for the people of Lincolnshire now. I'm not changing my tune, Councillor Wyle knows that in the past I have actually offered to go with them when they've made erm, visits to the minister, and when he said, we we we tried, but we never got anywhere, and on various issues I've said, well perhaps if we got us an all party delegation, at least we could have done no worse. Now why, now is Councillor Warby now saying I would have done it, not I will do it. [Graham:] Okay. [speaker001:] Erm, just a point of information, I think er on the hundred and thirty-one million, including the Lincoln, and I think er they would have been you would have been under serious er distress on that, because the information I have had from the Department of Transport, is that if the Lincoln scheme had gone ahead, it would have effectively blocked everything else for the next five years, and that wouldn't have done you any good, from where you're elected, either. So we're looking at it first, I I think in the end, there are schemes that we've got to put on to the back burner, or the, until such times Lincoln develops further, and there is further development. It needs another twenty thousand people, I think, if that's going to go ahead. But the, the fact is, that what I, my plea to you today, and and my plea to the committee yesterday is, that I don't want this to be in the political arena, it is in the political arena, but I think we do need to to er er er take it out of the political arena, for the benefit of of all the people that that put us here. Mm. In this county. Not for the conservative party or the liberal party or the labour party. It is called benefit and and the well being of those kids about there, that we're educating them at our own school, that they can have jobs and work, and if this is going, my fear is, okay we can live within this,s as you say, it may that it's just bad settlement for one year. We shall have to live with it, because er I I don't think that any hope of any redress next year, but the got to be established of a different system, of me a different methodology for the foreseeable years, if we're going to get those schemes through that you supported wholeheartedly and congratulated us and for bringing forward the new road schemes for er the that that that that you so approved so warmly yesterday. Well you, we we can't do those, unless we get er, more cooperation from central government. I I got,we we've established a and I'm delighted that the minister is part of that, because he controls the purse, and the purse strings. Otherwise the forum is just a talking shop. So it is essential that those people that [cough] that that control the purse are part of the dialogue, and I I hope David that you will continue to make your submissions, in opposition as I did. the Chair, Chair. Can I come back Er, Mrs Pinchbetter said. She must realise that the conservatives are in opposition. I am not a Chairman, Jill is, Jill Dobsworth is, and the other fact. Yesterday, it was proposed that a committee be formed to look into speed limits. The conservatives asked to be represented on that committee and they were refused by the ruling groups. [Graham:] We were told that you might have as much effect on that as you're having with central government. [speaker001:] What is it, you're our Chairman, Mr Chairman, but I am a little concerned, there seems to be two stands this morning. You've already curtailed when, you said you've already spoken, you cannot again. [Graham:] Wh wha what what comment have you got. I'm I'm saying, I'm in the Chair. [speaker001:] is, if you are Chairman, be consistent [Graham:] I am consistent. [speaker001:] If there's one person speaking [Graham:] Is it, do you wish to comment on this paper? [speaker001:] I want to s s comment on on this meeting. [Graham:] Well, come on then. No, no, no, well, that that's within my purview, and the purview of the committee who elected me. Thank you. If you wish to comment on the paper, I give everyone the opportunity, and believe you me, I'm being as very, as fair as I can. [speaker001:] But we can only, we can talk as many times as we like, then, Mr Chairman. [Graham:] If I allow you to, yes. Right. I think we've had a fair er debate on that. We have the report and it is for noting. Unless anybody has any er, other amendments to put forward. [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] Do you agree with these recommendations? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [Graham:] Thank you. [paper rustling] Er, the next paper is er, the external auditors management letter, and we have with us today, Coopers and Liebrand representatives and I understand Max who, you're going to er, speak to us about [speaker001:] Thank you. just remind members by er, way of introduction that this is the the first occasion when the external auditor has been er invited to answer questions and make points on the management er er, letter to the full committee. [cough] Er, that's all all I want to say, and I think er Max here, has got erm, something by way of introduction, and then there will be an opportunity to question us. [Graham:] Yeah, not not a form of opening government. [speaker001:] Do you want to erm, [clears throat] well I've come today as the partner responsible for recruiting my men for the audit of the County Council, together with my colleague Stephen Critchley, who is the partner responsible for the regularity audit, the main accounts of the County Council accounts. And another senior colleague Steve Mcleod on my right, whose primary responsibility is with the value for money work that we undertake on your behalf. And as we set out in the management letter, it's a requirement of the audit commissioners code of practice, as we do report to areas of all the authorities that we deal with on an annual basis. And indeed, erm, in the papers, summarise, really summarises [pouring] the work that you undertake and including December ninety-two, to December ninety-three. There's the work that we do erm, most of the that we undertake, actually are erm, engaged in providing an opinion on the accounts of the County Council. But we do have a responsibility for value for money, and legality issues as well, and appendix eight of our paper actually summarises in brief form the work that we've undertaken on your behalf this year. The audit, er, the the accounts your your offices will be assigned er, as of the twenty-third of December, of ninety-three, and, but we're not able yet to conclude the audit as I'm considering an objection which has been received from a member, on the matter of publicity. Erm, the local government act nineteen ninety-two permits the auditor to actually advise the council to er matters which we believe that you should consider in full, er er, County erm, Council meeting, and I'm pleased to confirm that for this year there is nothing of that nature, that er, we would put to you, to refer to. [clears throat] Lincolnshire has a lot of history of being a well managed authority, a proved exercising sound controls on its financial and management affairs, and I'm pleased to say that I'm again in a position to confirm that that is our view, for the conduct of the Council's business in the period on which we are reporting. In Paragraph one oh nine, and one ten,th, I do actually draw your attention to two areas, though I think that members amongst all the [paper rustling] issues that we have to deal with erm, to bear in mind in particular, and indeed the first one, probably the most important, in the sense of the longer term financial indications to reduce the extension of it is, limits that are being imposed upon local government generally, and of course here in Lincolnshire in particularly, in particular. And indeed, I think that it is quite clearly the theme, there's been money through the meeting this morning. Er, it is a very difficult climate, it's becoming increasingly difficult, and indeed, it's affecting the work that we do, in the sense that, the more government [cough] awards monies for specific purposes, your offices for specific and confirm the expense of those purposes, annual auditors to actually confirm that it has been so spent. And it's increasing the burden of work upon your offices and upon the auditors as well. It is a difficult climate, and the announcement before Christmas that erm, no government expenditure would increase by some two point three per cent, generally across England and Wales, is clearly not erm, worked so well for Lincolnshire with a capping limit increasing only by one point seven per cent, and the S S A, is increasing by one point two per cent. And quite clearly managing your affairs as you have done in the past within this context, becomes more difficult. But I think we see that with the capital programme, that quite clearly you're erm, having to take into account the fact that capital spend erm, cannot be er maintained at the level it has in the past, and indeed I believe you are talking about this matter, er, later on this morning. Yes. Er, but that's an indication of what's happening in that area, and indeed, the members erm, I am pleased to say, have taken the right attitude to that, recognised that that's the case and er addressing that, together with the revenue spend, erm, in a manner which I find is erm, of responsible and approved. In spite of this, there has been serious developments and in this year, and they'll be fully in place next year. And the process under which that was taking place, er reminds you all that you are unhappy with as well. Erm, the monetary outlook is not going to be easy. The erm, any other areas that I've drew particular attention as a, as a, key issue is on the matter of er legality and doing work for other bodies, which has been an issue here which er, as you may recall we mentioned that in the last two or three years. We have done some work with your offices on that, and whilst on most of your activities aren't happy with er the scale of such that it does cause me a problem, there is one particular area that we are in discussion with the Chief Executive, and your offices relating to doing work for other bodies to and the contract vehicle hire service, and er, that's something which we will and no doubt will be brought us in the very near future. Erm, [clears throat] the only other thing I think it remains for me to say is that erm, the work will be undertaken on a value for money nature. Most of that is presently with your offices and draw up a reports in a moment, it was on special education needs, and so on. Erm, we have a programme developing for next year, which we will discuss with your offices, to ensure that we use the time that we validated to your audit er, in an effective, efficient and economic manner. And the regularity work, which is what we call the work on the accounts, the opinion on the accounts, the work seems very well, and the timetable that was agreed with er, the County Treasurer offices. [cough] and er, which we finished, and I would really just like to say that erm, thanks very much for the cooperation that we received from the offices generally across the authority. I think it's fair to say, that we do not all matters, and I hope that nobody's here that would appreciate that the audit role is an independent role. We have considerable rights, of inspection, search, discussion, and the right to documents. Er, your officers have always, extremely cooperative in that way, and that they're a particular group of officers, they don't like to agree with everything that we say, and we have to go with robust discussions. Ultimately, I believe that er, the best interest is leave it to ourselves by that particular process, and with that Chairman, I wish to conclude. [Graham:] Thank you very much. Anyone wish to... Councillor [speaker001:] No, it's just a general enquiry, really, I I guess erm, erm, you you've, through you Chairman, I I've I've heard about the involvement of officers, but I wonder what extent there is involvement of of of members in the the the process of preparing those reports and presentations of the report, is is there any... member comment on that. [Graham:] Would you like to, [speaker001:] Certainly, erm, it has changed this year, erm, but the arrangements now are, that we produce our report across the year, with i, and as you can appreciate the report summarises various, of one thing we done during the with officers around the county round the Erm, at the, at the end of November, we commit to writing this report in summary version, which we then discuss with the Chief Executive and the County Treasurer in particular, they take whatever soundings they wish with other offices and then we agree that letter. At that point, once the letter is finalised, we then did have a meeting with two members, the Chairman of this Committee that'll be Councillor Park, to just go through it, and that happened on Monday morning of this week. Great long speech. Thank you. [Graham:] So our involvement was for it to be presented to us before it came to this meeting. Any other queries on this? [speaker001:] One question, Mr Chairman, er er er information really er on this section one one oh. Erm, [paper rustling] does specific questions relating to er, matters that the auditor has brought to you, you've mentioned the Chief Executive, but a general opinion, really. Is he saying, I understand sir, that you, you approve of cross border tampering from other local authorities or not? [Graham:] Erm, may I take the opportunity to say that cross border is a bit of a misnomer, erm, it's, the correct term is really doing work for other bodies. It's absolutely clear that the public body should be doing work for private sector organisations, and er, to my knowledge, Lincolnshire County Council have not been to that particular erm, definition, although other authorities do and I have had to stop other authorities undertaking contracts where they are er private sector organisations. So far as doing work with public sector bodies erm, the business services act of nineteen seventy-six came into stand, this creates a lot of er, which work had been done. Erm, the main requirement is, that where you have resources or applied property to discharge your own functions, people come under the then you are at liberty to use those resources where it doesn't increase the capacity to do work for other public bodies, but you should neither increase your own capacity to do work with other bodies [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] nor should you seek to do derive a profit from the services that you provide to, I don't know, public bodies. [speaker001:] Does that answer your question. That answers my question, yes. [Graham:] Councillor Weller? [Wyle:] Well, I'll ask er, oh they're not here. Oh, thank you, first of all for this statement. I think it's the longest we've approved and [speaker001:] Long may it's costing you. [Wyle:] Er, but the question that I'd like to a a ask is, erm, [clears throat] reducing, er it's about capital, because er, where the capital is being in use, and and like yesterday... reducing capital is always an easy option. Requesting when there was fifty million programmes, and that it's it's it's an option that governments always take. I must admit, weak option, but its an easy option. Lincolnshire's capital, lively financed from revenue, of course grants, and property sales etc. are sold, that money can be transferred into services, and money can be borrowed. So it is easy option to borrow and spend that money on services. are rather different, if the builder wants us to borrow on their behalf, that's one thing, whether we should borrow on our behalf, is a question that one has to. So would he have any comments to make, say next year at this time. Or is there an area which you would get into on the question of whether how hard we should struggle before we er, do that sort of thing, or whether it's purely a matter for for the County Council [speaker001:] Could I be before you answer that question, you did ask, didn't you, ask him to be hypothetical and say what would he say in a year's time, and I think what [Wyle:] Well, I meant, I I I I mean, it is his job talking to comment on [Graham:] Well, I'll ask him. is it, is it he can answer that question, is it he's job to look in what er, happened in a year's time. [speaker001:] It is not my job to comment on the policy of the County Council. Expect only in that, it was a danger that you were going to incur expenditure, which is of an unlawful n nature, pending on the clearly wish to comment. Or indeed, if the consequences of that particular policy decision is such that the erm, the revenue considerations were serious and improvable and in which case, you would not be deriving value for money, and I most certainly would have a comment to make. [Graham:] Johnny, Johnny would ask you if you did the auditing for Westminster, but, er that's a bit wrong at this stage. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I do not wish to discuss Well, I, seriously, Mr Chairman, conservative group for the County Council of Westminster is a lot better than it is. [Graham:] You'll have to write to Lady Anyone else wish to comment on [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] If not. Could I, thank you very much, sir, and you're, thank you for coming in, and the way you presented the report, it's a difficult report, and we hope that er, we're in a similar situation Thank you. [paper rustling] Right, erm, I'm not too sure... Paper ten, Treasury Management, and I believe this is going to be taken by Noel Harrison. [Taylor:] Chair. [clears throat] It's er almost two years ago now that erm, and it, I'd like you to wait, but not entirely as a consequence of B C C I's er, demise, that Citra published a code of practice to Treasury Management and a guide to the Chief Officers who were members of that Institution. Erm, in terms of Treasury Management. One of the requirements of that particular council guides to the Chief Officers was that, they should bring before the councils a statement that Treasury Management policy and arrangements and that, in fact, was done in the autumn of ninety-two, and the council adopted a particular statement which reflected its circumstances at the time, erm, and the then policy. By and large that particular go erm, statement, which is actually embodied in financial regulations also, envisage erm, a a situation where there would be no long term borrowing. Erm, since that particular time, the financial climate has significantly changed, and the government policy in relation to certain areas of expenditure which I comment, which I commented on earlier, erm, has also changed, in that... instead of paying direct grant, they are now issuing credit approvals, which permits borrowing to agreed levels within the constraints of the capital control mechanisms, that the government have in place, the controlling overall levels of indebtedness of councils. Erm, whilst those credit approvals do bring reimbursement to the council over time, the equivalent amount to grant in broad terms. What they, you do is, in fact shift the incidence on cash flow. Given that change in circumstances, we, it was felt that it would be prudent to propose to members a change to the actual statement which was in place, so that it would permit consideration of longer term borrowing, in particular circumstances and where it's in the interest of the authority, and have the flexibility to do so, in relating to the prudent managements of its affairs, Chairman. I think all those who the statement, I don't propose to go through it in detail. I think I could probably stop there. [Weller:] Thank you. Papers headed erm, Treasury Management, but essentially it's about [speaker001:] [cough] [Weller:] taking out loans and borrowing and I don't think that this County Council ought to be defensive in the slightest about having a tool such as borrowing available to us [clears throat] in terms of financial management. I think I want to start by reminding everybody that borrowing to finance capital spending is the norm, for almost all local authorities in this country. I want then, to go on to say that if we take a view, about fairness, and I think that that's an important word that we, certainly from our side, want to use regularly and practice. If we take a view about fairness, then the funding of capital schemes is fairer if the charge and the cost of the those schemes is spread over the life of the the asset. Because then all the people that use that asset, not just now but in the future,co make a contribution towards its purchase. In other words, that we're spreading out the costs and the charges amongst the people that actually use the services, the road, the school, the particular asset that we erm, would be funding. I think it's also easy to argue that if you take money out of government allocation for service delivery greater than the amount that is necessary, then actually, the people that are getting in in in the sense of capital schemes, the losers are the people that lose out on front line direct services. To give you an example, in nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, the capital financing standard spending assessment allocation, for Lincolnshire was twenty-three point seven million. We spent twenty-nine point one million, which was in excess of five point four million. That five point four million could have been spent on front line social services, for example. So in a sense, what we're doing by funding and delivering a very high capital programme out of revenue, rather than borrowing, is we're detracting from our ability to deliver important services. I think it's also reasonable to point out, that at the moment, the County Council does enter into finance lease arrangements to meet the business needs, of for example Translink and Computer Services. It's been accepted that these are credit arrangements under the local government Planning and Land Act, so therefore, it is not unreasonable to argue that borrowing will not represent a new departure for the County Council in terms of being able to control capital spending. We can also recognise, as we did, at an, on an earlier paper that it is national government policy and increasingly so, to encourage the development of capital schemes, borrowing, we noted that in relation to transport and the availability of S C A's I think it's also right to say that the government does set down the level of borrowing which can be entered into in in any one year, that is the credit approvals are controlled by the government and they do make them available to the County Council and to district Councils, so in a sense, the government is both saying that we expect borrowing to be a feature of a budget and also that we want to control, and restrict the amount of money that can be borrowed through the amount of credit approvals. Final reason, is that fo for borrowing, is that we could take a view, that borrowing in a particular year has to take account of the of the valuable circumstances at that particular time. We could note, and I think that it's right and prudent to do so, that the current levels of interest rates are at their lowest historically for some twenty years. They may even go lower, but there's certainly the clear indications from the city that, and from informed sources that interests rates are likely to rise towards the end of this year. If that's the case, then we could argue,an and will do, that now is a good time to borrow on a fixed term basis over a long period. I think to sum up, I would be wanting to say, that this County Council takes a view that it is about the provision of services. Important services have to be [speaker001:] [cough] [Weller:] given priority. When you realise that we have had one of the most difficult spending erm, decisions taken by [speaker001:] [cough] [Weller:] National Government, then the time has got to come at so some stage as to whether you defend a principle of Lincolnshire being a de a longer term debt free authority, or whether you look around the county and say, important services must be protected. We take a view that this is both so sound financial management and delivery quality services to the people of Lincolnshire. We think they deserve and want no less. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] Thank you. Well, it's erm, fairly local incident, that this paper has been er borne, er to give the er permission for borrowing, when the labour, liberal er controlling group find themselves in this embarrassing position, er, of having to find an extra eleven million pounds to maintain their services. They've got themselves into this mess in just nine months. Now let me cut through all that science, that er, Councillor Parker has has tried to make this issue. Erm, budgeting whether it's a five [cough] er, five hundred million budget, or your own household budget, er, in basic terms, is is fairly simple. And anyone who has controlled a a household budget, will well understand that in the present sort of climate, that is the real world outside this County Council. You have to cut you cloth according to the means. And when wages and inflation are running at less than two per cent, you don't go out and increase your spending by four or five per cent. And you certainly don't go out, and then start economics of the mad-house. What do you do? What do the the balance very shortly. Erm... when I think of you and I do, when we're confronted with the challenges in our household budgets. [whispering] You use your Access Cards. [] We look at things that we would like to do, and set our priorities. Unavoidably, we have to delay some decisions, we put off other decisions, we look at other alternatives, that is the way that you prudently manage budgets. You do not go out and borrow. This County Council under this administration are facing identifying simple economic rules of brevity. They operate outside. Someone else can pick up the bill. The bottom line is, that if you are having to use Council enforcement to repay interest, you cannot spend the same Council tax revenues in providing services. The customer is the people of Lincolnshire that we represent, they are going to lose out by this sort of policy and we oppose the principle of borrowing for these sort of reasons, [cough] are part of it. Thank you, Chairman, I, firstly I'm indebted to Mr Harrison, here, for a new phrase into the English language, as we're being recorded this morning. He used the word, shift the incidence of cash flow. In other words, that's, covers a multitude of sins, but basically it means, borrowing. And borrowing means pay later. [cough] I'm dead against this, er, on principle, I think it's cutting the first sod of the hole that you're preparing to dig yourselves. Secondly, erm, I am indebted to Councillor Parker for not being mealy-mouthed about this. He's saying, quite specifically what his political objective is, and that is, that they can spend more revenue on their political priorities, that they choose to spend it on, and it is a way of transferring capital monies into revenue, and it's as simple as that. And I object to it, [cough] [Graham:] Yes. [speaker001:] Er, can I ask for a point of clarification. In the past, er authorities with er er a debt of being limited with the use of their capital receipts. We are, we are debt free, we've been debt for a long time. And I'm against the er policy of borrowing. I think it's retrogrades debt. Erm, I agree with my colleagues for what's been said, so I won't say any more about that, but it is the point that what happens to the capital receipts, in the future. [clears throat] The position with the County Council is that while has no long term debt, it has never satisfied the tests of central government, for the capital control regime. Which they class as a debt free authority. That requires two conditions, one that you have no long term debt, and that under the capital control regime which exists on the legislation, you have what is termed a nil or negative credit ceiling. Whilst we satisfied one of those conditions, the authorities never satisfied both. The fact that, one has as a as a council, credit approvals, it does allow you to set them against capital receipts in in further financing new capital works, to the extent that you don't use them for other purposes. The government are actually indifferent as to whether you you borrow, and consume your capita er, your credit approvals, or whether you consume your credit approvals by applying them to capital receipts which will be used to buy further capital assets. Because in their terms, the object of the control regime, is to force down aggregate levels of indebtedness, and there are mechanisms wi within which it works which do that. But the County Council still has some longer term debt, not external but internally, that is being paid now and not over time, and so the position actually will not change, so long as the Council continues to have more credit approval than it requires to use the new borrowing. Can I, can can can I just come back [Graham:] on that. Wh what what level are are capital approvals? What are they running at, erm, you know. In the last year? [speaker001:] Over the last year, something over seventeen million, in the forthcoming year there will be a review for about, I think from memory of ar of around about fourteen million. I think that's supplementary. Including the supplementary credit approvals, they're just short of seventeen million. It's about thirteen point four million basic credit approvals, and about three point three million supplementary credit approvals. So it's sixteen point seven million in total. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] Yes, thank you. I hold [cough] Port erm, borrowing, and I think some Tory members are being disingenuous to say the least on this issue. [sighing] It's [] Councillor Box said, the mess that you are in. [cough] This is a direct result of the Tory government cutting our late support grant. It's not a mess that we're in, it's your Tory government are doing this. If you're saying you're not supporting borrowing, it's, I think you've got a duty to say, what services you're going to cut. If you cannot just go along and say no we're not borrowing and live within your budget as you are saying. We're talking about essential services. In education, for example, we have a a rising pupil numbers. We have more children needing [end of tape]

[speaker001:] services. Now we've got this year, certainly it will succeed in years and pay, pay the interest off, that will re result in a any more money your own debt. The S S A will be controlled as it is at present. I see us put into on that sort of thing. What we we got a result over that. Interest rates will go up. In the past when they've gone up, under the conservatives, we welcomed that thus slashing fourteen per cent, money out of the market and as they said, two million pounds against eight hundred thousand. That is going to change, of course. As money goes up, er, you can you can negotiate figures [cough] [Wyle:] Interest. Well, then that was at a higher level than at present, but we're not going to take on at ten per cent interest. That's five or six per cent on the debt. So you're gonna pay more for that. The whole thing, reminds me a little bit of each when I had to get my thousand pounds. [speaker001:] You're lucky you got one. [Wyle:] It says on it, you can pay two hundred pounds, or over three years, or you can pay ten pounds. Who decided, Mr Chairman, to pay the ten pounds, you were lucky really, you have to pay the two hundred pounds, that'll be the [speaker001:] Yeah, well, thank you Chairman, I I I'm erm er, I must admit, I'm I I am think long and and and er think deep really, about er, you know, changes such as this, but I I also er, er have to run my own businesses, and er, I just er, I think we have experienced a water-shed, it's coincided to some extent with the change of administration and then during the nineteen eighties, we had to a boom in this county, we had the the opportunity and I never er ever er, been against that principle, of er, of er, using our actual receipts we have hidden reserves, we we talked about the reserves of twenty nine million pounds here, for the er, erm, we have er er, assets of twenty nine million, in an earlier paper. And then we all know, that that that er er considerable assets there, which are there, and and and we're we're we're very grateful for them, we are in a very fortunate position. But, we have interest rates at the lowest rate they've been, well, in my memory, really, in terms of er er my time in business, and they may even go down a further one per cent. Er, and that coincides as well, with er, unfortunate situation, where we've erm, [cough] we're still in the in the recession. I heard that that er er er parts of the rest of the U K property prices have risen over the last year, er but ours have actually not risen at all. In fact, they've gone down. Lincolnshire and Humberside, and so er er I've no doubt in my mind that there will be opportunities available to us, er through further capital receipts, in the foreseeable future. But those won't, er if we were to take cashing those in now, it would be probably taking half of what we might get for them in the future, and from a business proposition, there is a time, when even if you have money in the bank, there are times, when it would be very advantageous to take long term interest rates, at low interest rates, and I think er er this is er perhaps the best opportunity that we have. Er, also, we don't forget that er, we, whilst people say to me, er we had a good year on the P S G last year and we've had some good settlements, perhaps over the year, better than average, in the East Midlands, on the P S G. But we have so much catching up to do. We're light years behind some of those areas where the spending has been at a much higher level. So we don't want to be any under any illusions about that, and the same can be applied to the fact that we have made no real provision for nursery education, that we were in trouble over special needs in this county, that was a a requirement to to restore services that were well below the S S A on Social Services, and we really all this er this er, new administration has done, has been brought those up, those services up to what would have been regarded as a quite an unacceptable level with most of the the the authorities in this country. It's been a up, in fact, you've been living off the people, in in in other words. Really, in terms, of [cough] providing, and you've been living off capital in that way, and and and I'm not prepared to do that, but I do think there is strong case for borrowing, er, providing it's kept in in that in in er er under control at this time, and borrowing, I may feel that we will be able to be in a much better position to take our capital receipts and use them advantageously in the future. I have no doubt about it that the government are urging us at this moment, er I I am concerned about that, they are urging us by the er [cough] approvals to do to go down this road. I I I don't want to go down the road to the same extent that they've done, when they put us into debt by fifty er fifty billion o o o o o o o just on on on one day, but I'm sure that there is a a strong case to look [cough] and to pursue the options that are are available to us, and that's what I hope the Treasurer will do, er, and this is all we're approving at the moment, and that an an and to find out just what the, how the land lies, what the best position is, what interest rates that we might be able to get, and over what period and I I I er support this er er er er this expense bud budget. [Taylor:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, this is basically about fairness and equality. Fairness the people who willingly to cheer now. Er, to expend money on a project over, that is going to last thirty forty years, and expect the people today to pay for it. Erm, when their paying for it, not necessarily with money, but in some cases with their lives, with misery. These are the things that they're having to pay for it with, and the reason being, is the Social Services in this county were a diabolically low level, and people were definitely suffering from it. The people of this county, were suffering from it, through crying, because of the lack of crime prevention work being done by the previous administration, because the money was all going one way. I'd like to ta look round this room. Everybody has homes. How many people of the, how many of you here today, could actually pay for your home out of your income, if you waited until you have sufficient income to pay for your home in its entirety, the bulk of the people in this room, even though there are, yes, some rich farmers, still couldn't afford to have a home. These are the types of things, that you have failed to look at. Central Government is encouraging us to borrow, and I was pleased to hear Councillor on papery actually accept that borrowing under F T C was acceptable. [speaker001:] I didn't do anything, I don't know what you are talking about. How ac you're unsure I said, well if governments daft enough to borrow, that's their business, I was [LAUGHTER] [Taylor:] Mr Chairman, er the actual words were, S T D, S T C's are a separate thing when we are borrowing on governments behalves. And that was his exact words. So he supports them borrowing, but how many farmers in this country, or in this county don't have a loan. I would think very very few. We are looking for fairness, and that is what we're going to deliver. [speaker001:] Perhaps I was saying too much. [Graham:] Councillor Brock is the Vincent Price of our councillors, with his horror stories, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Weller:] Anybody that borrows money for a capital project is in is in the mad-house. He should be in the mad-house, which worries me, because I, to follow the point that councillor Taylor's made. I borrowed a modest amount to buy my house, that I could easily meet within the finances that I'm getting at the moment. And that's all the same that the County Council are going to do. They're going to lend money for long term projects, and the people of Lincolnshire, who benefit through those projects for years to come, will be paying modestly for years to come. That way, we are providing those front line services, that Councillor Taylor picked upon and Councillor Parker mentioned, such as Social Services that had been, that that literally been fleeced by the previous administration to pay for their capital projects. We will put in the front line services, such as Social Services. I hope we will borrow very modestly, it'll be affordable, we're not reckless, we'll be doing what the majority of people in this country do, borrow within their limits for the things that they need for the future such as a home, or a car, something like that. It's nothing to be frightened about, it's not something new, as been stated. Borrowing is, does not re, is not a new thing for us. We we do that in terms of of of capital control for Translink and Computer Services, and it's interesting to note that we don't class as a debt free authority, so what we have is a number of scare stories from Vincent over there, which is irresponsible. This is a sound tool in our management... toolbox, and I recommend it. [Wyle:] Good job this meeting's being recorded, Mr Chairman. We should have a play-back in four years time. [Graham:] Councillor [speaker001:] Thank you, Mr Chairman, it it's certainly very interesting this morning, er listening to the various points that have been put forward by er the new administration. Erm, all speaking with an air of running business, managing finance and er how we haven't managed in the past because this is what, our actual [cough] [Wyle:] It is really, it's a philosophy, isn't it, over the last how many years, you don't have this philosophy, about being in fear of long term debt in in this authority. I don't think capital not the way the average them that work. Better to be in philosophy than have the facilities which has greatly benefited the charge payers and the people who think right across the board. Right across the board. I I mean, I find it, I find it quite amusing when some of the er labour people their services. I travelled the country well, I've been in other authorities both labour controlled, been in to schools, been in old peoples homes, erm seen their roads, or driven over their roads, and I can assure you, that er in Lincolnshire. I think you know, Lincolnshire has done a dam good job for the people in Lincolnshire [pouring] whether it in roads, whether it be old peoples homes, or whether it be in schools, whether it be in fire stations, police stations, I admit to where one could say across the board, they could compare, that they could compare, they might compare they might live in one area and work in another. One could go into Cambridgeshire and some of the various levels of development what they have got [speaker001:] [cough] Cambridgeshire roads, and you know very well that they they don't compare to Lincolnshire roads, County boundary. You go into various parts of the er south west, where their labour control and you look at the state of their buildings, and you think, my God, what on earth have the elected members been doing when you actually see the level of rates that they have set. And then, I mean, the amount of long term capital debts they all got. Erm, it it's a matter of whether you want to spend today and pay later, or whether you want to continue a philosophy is mainly in the majority of Lincolnshire vote, that if you want something, you pay for it. If you haven't got the money, you go without. Now, we are providing above average level of services year on year on, at below average, er er average expenditure. For the simple reason that we have no debt to finance, we have no debts to finance, and if we'd listened to you over the years, on our sur surplus land and property. Selling off the family silver. The times that has come out of your mouths. Selling off the family silver, and look what we're gonna have to do with that year You have criticised those for setting up the various units, and giving them target for. You have criticised those for looking after, Councillor Clark, I didn't talk when you were talking, and I thought you'd want to listen to what I'm saying, because er, I think you could learn a lot. Er, I was hoping you Mr Chairman, I take to a conclusion Mr Chairman, if this for negotiators of these and if you look at th the papers of the budget this year, er because of conservative policies don't improve, you haven't actually inherited about ten million pounds coming in to your budget during the year. Now, you have been spending, since May like water. You have unspend, you have spent, and you actually spent more than we've got in some instances. You make commitments for next year, as as if, money had gonna be no object. You your criticising the the government is not giving you as much grant as you would like. You'll have to remember that the that the er increase from last year, it's an increase, it's not a cut, not talking about cuts. There is no reduction from Central Government from last year to to to from this year, to next year, and you have been totally unrealistic, the two of you, the labour and the liberal parties after May, erm, we've gotta this, we've gotta that. As as if money would just come whenever you open your mouths. You are at last realising the folly of what you set out to do. [cough] [Wyle:] and as Councillor said. Here we are, in a matter of what eight to nine months of inheriting, a well financed, a well run, an effective, efficient organisation with a reasonable amount of na balances. With a capital investment fund, and yet here you are trying to have to borrow to be able to manage next year. I think it's an absolute disgrace. I think it's a sad day for in Lincolnshire, and you know, if you start as, I think Councillor said, to er, agree with this er proposal today, it is, it will be the first sod and the last hole which you will be digging and it'll be the charged back to Lincolnshire at the end of the day who are happy to on it. [Graham:] Thank you for that. Right, I think er, everyone's had a good say from both sides, and I would like to sum up and put it to the vote. Erm, really its a question of, do we borrow or don't we borrow. That's what we've been asked this morning. It's also being raised by other conservatives, they wouldn't have started from here. And the question I've been asking myself of this, is that erm, where did we start from. When we took control we inherited an unsustainable capital programme. Now that capital programme was at erm, fifty two million, I think it was thereabouts. Which would be formulated in the pre-election year which was for obvious reasons. Would you allow me, please. You know, I've allowed you all to speak, and I do expect the courtesy of... I'm I'm sorry Councillor Wyle, I expect the courtesy towards the Chair, and I am now summing up, so please be quiet. What did we inherit, I say we inherited that, and also we have inherited er an S S A to us, that you would have inherited, the conservative, at some ten million short of what we needed. Now I want to refer to that, because this is fact. The increase in the education S S A nationally, by one point eight per cent. Lincolnshire only receive nought point five per cent increase. That was a loss to Lincolnshire County Council, fact, of one point eight million. The area cost adjustment which the er government takes out of the total S S A's of some two hundred million has gone to the south-east, I hope none goes to Westminster, and that has cost us one point three million. In the distribution of care in the community, the money for that, with the [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] S S A. Reduction compared with the amount we received in ninety-three, ninety-four through the special transitional grant, we got a reduction there, two point two million. This fact. It's been mentioned, I think it was Councillor mentioned about the, he was pleased to see that we got two million pound in interest receipts against the eight hundred thousand that was envisaged. But within the S S A, the government expected us to have three point [shouting] nine million [] receipts. That is a loss of two million. Also we've been arguing our claim for the sparsity factor, in other words, the national reduction of one hundred and sixty one million in ninety-four, ninety-five compared to ninety-three, ninety-four for the sparsity factor. One point six million. Now whether you like it or not, and you're not in our position, because we er prepared to manage this authority, you would have had that same reduction to find, and I did hear Councillor and he was also referring to capital spend the other day, saying he could have found ten million. I've also heard Councillor er being, er er quoted in the press, as saying that he could find the money for capital schemes. I think one was out at Caister. So that where we're at at this point in time. Now Councillor refers to whether the time was right, and why should we have to borrow. Well as you're aware, our philosophy, our policies are to protect and improve services, and a lot of our services, when we came in with our initiative, we started from a nil base, on some of the provision, and we are not prepared to stand by and see diminution of any of the services, if it is humanly possible. So the decision is whether we borrow to protect those services, that's to the elderly, to the school children, to education and to try and enhance our road system. Er, then this is a decision we have, we want flexibility. The interest rates are low at the present time. The climate is right, and we believe it could be sound financial management in a very difficult situation, it's been referred to, should we borrow. The majority of the County Council's in this country borrow money. Er, I think it was Councillor who referred to er looking at your own household budget. I look at my er occasionally, I borrowed money over my lifetime, and managed to acquire a capital receipt, a property. And most of us do that, and that is the situation that we're in at the present time. And, we're not in doing, not intend telling you at the er, proposals we will put in the budget, but I can give you an assurance at this point in time, that we shall be borrowing money. And the er, detail of that will come out when the proposals are put to the Policy and Resources Committee. So I support er the recommendation for the change in the er, Treasury Management Policy er statement, and I formally move this to be adopted by this Committee. [speaker001:] I second that. I second that. Mm. [Graham:] Seconded. All those in favour of that, please show... thank you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] One at the back there, would you count, please. [speaker001:] Eight, Chair [Graham:] And against. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Six. Seven. Would would you please register that the er, conservatives vote against it. [Graham:] Do do all the conservatives agree with that statement. [speaker001:] Agree. [Graham:] Thank you. Thank you. Er, that is carried. [speaker001:] didn't have to answer the questions [Graham:] I'm sorry, I'm moving on to the next paper. [speaker001:] questions [Graham:] I'm sorry, that paper is finished with. We're moving on to the next paper. [paper rustling] The next er, paper. I have to move that under section one hundred A brackets four, the Local Government Act nineteen seventy-two. The public be excluded from the meeting for the following items on the grounds that they involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraphs eight and one of part one of schedule four A of the I so move... er, paper G, and I believe we've got, oh, I'm sorry, Morris. [speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. This paper that set out the [clears throat] excuse me, the paper set out the details of the I T capital code [paper rustling] goes on to ninety-four, five. It's the result of a big process by individual departments, erm, it is set out on the basis of departments priorities. [cough] It is shown in the priority all round the department,. The paper's presented in two parts. The first one is the standard format we use on the getting the information through. The second part, I thought might be useful to members in explaining in more detail what each of the schemes were about. The general customer paper is to build on the information structures that we've got, and to actually make the information more available internally and externally to the authority, and also to make use of new technology wherever that is possible. Erm, that's all I want to actually say in view of the. [Graham:] You have this paper before us? Any questions or observations. [speaker001:] Erm, yes, Mr Chairman. Erm, certainly it's a most interesting paper and er, certainly I think in the County we're doing very much er, think ever possible. [paper rustling] Er, a knowledge but erm, I would have to move that we cannot accept this recommendation because, it's not that we don't er support the scheme within this paper, but it's that we cannot accept. And maybe you want to know what [cough] and what would happen to the programme it would be wrong at this point in time, to accept the paper before one knows what the is of the County Council as a whole will be. Erm, no. [Graham:] Your moving, and so that's a direct negative. Thank you. Any other comments?... No. I'll put it to the vote. Do you agree with the recommendations on the paper? [speaker001:] Chair. [Graham:] Against. [speaker001:] Six, Chair. [Graham:] Good. Thank you. That is er, carried. Paper H. [speaker001:] [cough] Mike [Graham:] where's Mike, oh you're there, Mike. Thank you. [speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. This paper is er, a follow-up to a earlier paper that was presented to this committee back in October ninety-two. Erm, that paper reported on mortgage loans to employees, including two types of loan whereby the interest is not charged to an officer. Firstly the sole bridging loans where the council relocates an employee within the county because admin reorganisation. And secondly a temporary bridging loans for recruitment purposes, where an employee moves from another area to accept a post.

[speaker001:] Just a couple of things by way of introduction. Erm, the first point, relates to a a microphone here, and er and er tape recorder, and I think members of the sub-committee will have received a note from the Chief Executive Department. Longman's are doing a study into the spoken language, and are looking for, I think, ninety million words that are in common usage. They came to the County Council and asked for our permission, to to record a number of meetings in order to get a variety of settings and words, different words they used. It's it's the same procedure that we accepted at the Finance Committee last Friday, and in mentioning it and hoping it will be acceptance that Longman's can have the benefit of the Personnel's sub-committee contribution for the next hour and a half or so. There's, to be clear about it, that it's completely confidential, that their looking only for particular words that are used in different parts of the country and in different locations. No problems, I presume... Sound. Right. The second second thing is that people, everybody should have three extra pieces of paper, erm, relating to agenda Item Seven. The paper, January reports on employee resources. One's headed, Linkway Construction, the other is [clears throat] page thirty-two which needs replacing. Thirty-two that's plain paper out, needs to come out and thirty-two needs to go in. There's also the salary scale... A green card. Having said that, can we move, go into Yes. [speaker002:] any apologies or substitutions. [speaker001:] Certainly, Chair. There are no apologies, but there are two substitutions for this meeting. Councillor to replace Councillor and Councillor to replace Councillor. Both for this meeting only. [speaker002:] Thank you. If we can move to the agenda. Agenda item one. As we received the Minutes of the Personnel Meeting held on the eighteenth of October, nineteen ninety-three. These Minutes have been circulated with the Agenda for the meeting of the Policy Committee on the second of November. [speaker001:] Chair, just before we go into, there's one quick thing I would like to add. I omitted the attendance of Councillor from those Minutes, subject to that, I would hope you would approve them. [speaker002:] Is it agreed that these Minutes be approved? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you... Okay, if we then move to agenda item two. Minutes of the Appeal sub-committee, held on the fifteenth of October, nineteen ninety-three. Paper A. Perhaps merely to receive this paper from the Appeal sub-committee, fifteenth of October. Agreed to receive it? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you... Next item, [clears throat] Right agenda item three, notes of the Joint Consultative Committee held on the twenty-first of October, nineteen ninety-three, paper B. If I could just say a few words. This meeting was, I think the second meeting of Management and staff side on the County Council. It's part of an ingoing programme of meetings where there's consultation between employee representatives and employer representatives. Specifically, most of the items that we discussed are picked up as agenda items throughout this particular agenda. For example, on page two, number nine one, trade union recognition, is item nine of our agenda. We could mention occupational health service review. This this is going ahead and we had discussions with the staff side about about that issue. Local government review on page three, is is again an agenda item in relation to the staff commission at item ten in our agenda. Couple of points that were made in relation to this particular report was the backing by the employee side, erm, to the wages board initiative that took when we wrote to the government saying that we felt that the abolition of the wages board was not in the best interests erm, of the people of Lincolnshire. And that was supported. There will be a further report at the next Personnel Meeting on the outcome of the meeting that we held with J C C meeting on the twelfth of January and a further meeting is being fixed up for February. I don't know if anybody wants to make any comments about any of the items on paper B... Okay, is it agreed to receive this report? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] [clears throat] If we would then move to agenda item four. Association of County Councils Personnel sub-committee digest Paper C. Graham. [Graham:] It's simply a a report circulating for information slanders really because of it's, obviously it's a dated er paper, that appears from A C C because of the difference in Committee cycles. If there are any items, that er, members would wish to pick up, then I'm sure, we would be happy to do so, or the Chair. [speaker002:] Well, thank you. Anybody want to make a comment on the A C C digest. Councillor [Burrel:] Chair. Two, the nineteen ninety-four pay round. Erm, basically we've got a very poor deal from the government this year in terms of of of an increase in our spending allowance. Erm, I note that for ninety-five, ninety-six, that they intend to give us two per cent rise. Er, with nothing in there to pay. And I note that in ninety-six, ninety-seven we're gonna get one and a three quarter per cent rise. And again with nothing to pay, with the county's expected to find the money for pay rises for their staff from savings from efficiencies. Now, I mean, we've always been told that this is, been an efficient run County Council, and that the the scope for making savings is just not there. We've got inflation that I, it looks to be pressing perhaps to three, three and a half per cent, between four and three and a half per cent. Erm, we've got pay review bodies which may, we don't know what they'll come out with in in terms of recommendations for for the pay increases, and I think that this is placing the Councillor in a in a very bad po er position. Erm I don't think it's fair upon the employees and I don't think it's fair on the counties. Erm, I just wondered if you, from your manage from your meetings with the A C C that you would want to pass on any more comments on that. [speaker002:] Thank you. Come back to that. Does anybody else want to make a contribution on this paper? [speaker001:] what er Councillor says, but I can't find it. [speaker002:] It's... Agenda i, it's two. [Burrel:] No. [speaker001:] Is that right? [speaker002:] No. I think, I think the Chancellor in the erm, Budget speech on the thirtieth of November actually said that local government increase in spending will be two and a quarter per cent in nineteen ninety-four, five. Two per cent in ninety-five, six and one and three quarter per cent in ninety-six, seven. [speaker001:] Yes, I appreciate that, but I just wondered why we were discussing that here now, when we were turned down. I'm sorry, I just was a bit confused. [speaker002:] Right, I think it's to do with the fact that two on this digest is about the [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker002:] pay-round, and the pay-round is linked to what money [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker002:] given to actually, give to the local authorities. Any other contributions? If I could just pick up the point you made Councillor, I think that at the A C C discussions, there was a great deal of cognition and understanding of the need to consult with staff side, in the run up to the beginning of formal consultations. And I think that a comprehensive consultation exercise has got to bear in mind that the key question, and that's affordability. That we recognise that local authorities are in a a difficult position. We also recognise so to are the workers of County Councils, and District Councils, particularly because the er the government initiatives, one good point to V A T on fuel, and the increasing in in National Insurance Contributions and [clears throat] increases in taxation, so between the two sides has got to be some accommodation, bearing in mind the need for both of us to want to continue to deliver quality services. It's going to be a tough nineteen ninety-four. Anything else of agenda item, what is it C. Paper C. Okay. Do we agree that that the digest be noted. [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] thank you. Right paper D, agenda item five, Options and Horizons Agency's Annual Report. [speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. [speaker002:] Michael. [Michael:] Er, we report annually to you on our stewardship of the Options and the Horizon Agencies. Erm, the Options Agency is a county-wide youth training agency, with contracts with the Lincolnshire and the Greater Peterborough, er training and enterprise councils. Er, we're also, with that particular agency looking to establish a contract with the er, South Humberside. The majority of the training is within the Options Agency, erm, achieve a positive outcome, and I do apologise with all the jargon that will creep in, erm, positive outcomes in terms of these programmes are that they achieve jobs. National Vocational Qualifications. N V Q's or they go on to higher er studies in further education. And virtually everybody who joins the Options Agency has a positive outcome to more than one in some cases, er in so far as that agency is concerned. So overall the Options Agency has had another successful year. Internally the Options Agency delivers training for young people who qualify to our employees at the County Council, and so we do receive assistance through the youth training programme and with our costs as an employer in training young people to achieve the these positive outcomes and N V Q's and so on. So the Options Agency has had a good year, and hopefully will again next year. The Horizons Agency serves Lincoln and District and that's called the Lincoln Travel to Work Area, which vir virtually stretches as far as Horncastle to the east and Gainsborough to the er, west and Market Rasen to the north and Sleaford to the south, so it's a [LAUGHTER] very large proportion [] er er of the county, but it's called the Lincoln Travel to Work er Area. And it serves it from premises in Road and Lane in Lincoln. It has a contract with the Lincolnshire Tech. for youth training, and a contract for adult training. And it is specialised over the years in craft training, particularly in relation to the building and engineering trades, and has made unique provision in the district for the less able. The less able, in the jargon of these programmes are called an S T N. Special Training Needs. Er, the method of funding is changed for these programmes and this is leading to particular problems for the Horizons Agency. Er, we started off originally with all our expenses being met on these programmes. It then moved to being paid so much per week, for an trainee, and we now have a mixture of such much a week, and so much for the output related fundings, the jobs, the N V Q's, the F E courses which I mentioned earlier. And there is a move to move adult training particularly, to total output related funding. The Tech is funded in this sort of way by the er, er national arrangements and they in their turn has passing that on to various suppliers. This will pose particular problems for the Horizons Agency, because we rely very much on the weekly allowance for the people with special training needs, because their output in in terms of o output related funding is relative to the So our income is cutting for the people with the, who need the highest training staff ratio, in in order to succeed. And this poses particular problems for us in the Horizons Agency. We are in discussion with the Tech, and those discussions are not included. Erm, we're meeting er on a fairly regular basis with them, to see if we can seek some solution. And you'll see in the report that we do point out, that some of the training that we do, things like woodwork training, and brickwork training, are relatively expensive to deliver, compared with other training of occupations. Erm, and we've had, I'm afraid to give protective notice to six members of staff, it's about er, discussions with the erm, Tech, are not successful, then they will have to leave us at the end of this programme year, which is the thirty-first of March. That difficulty on one sense overshadows the successes that the agency has had, and this is particularly successful in the area of catering training training and business training. We do run er an organisation called Lincoln Energy Save out of the Horizons Agency, which er, completes insulations programmes, er, in er, properties. It's in part a government, and partly E C funding programme, and er the rules on that have been changed which will make many more people eligible for assistance with er, er insulation on their houses. Trained people are on the way, and many of the people that we train go onto work college, other commercial agencies. So there are successes in Horizons Agency, you just have to at the moment by the difficulties in finding the necessary funding to cater for people who are not great achievers in terms of output funding. Right. I'll be happy to answer any questions, Chair. [speaker001:] Thank you. [clears throat] Right, Councillor and then Councillor [Dodsworth:] Well, er I think, you know, it's a, I mean, in er one way it's a, it's a good it's a good report, I mean, and er it emphasizes, you know, the success of what the, we've got. I mean, we've got this, it's been on, Mrs, I know, she has the same as I do, but but er the the these people who need such help, I mean, I'm not being it it it just it just they've just not included in the programme really, and er, we've written I think from this committee over the years er made submissions over the years, and message still doesn't seem to have got through, that that that that er this, and I think very valuable work, that can contribute to the quality of life for all of us, if we can improve the lot for these people. It does reflect right through society er still doesn't, the message still doesn't get home, and I would like to move Mr Chairman, that er we do again er write and see if we can get some special recognition of this very serious problem that there is. There's some valuable work gone on there, and you can, and if and if we're going to deny these people, the opportunity of of achieving anything like their potential, I mean, it seems such a shame, when we, you know, when we are succeeding in the rest of the programme. And I would like to ask you, er er and the rest of the committee of who, whatever we can do, and that the officers should advise us what we can do, to to to make a further submission. I don't, I think we must do, because it underlines it's it's as sp, it's been a slow spiral down for these people, and we're getting now, very near to the bottom where we're not going to be able to help any of them at all. So I would urge the committee to to to make a submission on their behalf, Chair. [speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor [Foster:] Erm, yes, well I go along with er, Councillor on that. But but first of all I would like to say the officers of the agencies really should be congratulated on. Doing a good job. I'm sure Councillor and erm, and certainly there does seem to be more emphasis on helping people with difficult educational disabilities, and those with learning difficulties, but if we could encourage even more, excellent, and I think it's very important that er, bank agencies er emphasise the fact that it's training, plus their main aim being er also a qualification, which does help them get, erm jobs. And the end product record, does seem to be very good, particularly erm, er you know, with options, seventy- five per cent you know, very good indeed. But could we please be told just a little bit more about Compus course, er run by Horizon, that's mentioned in the last paragraph, erm on the, on green one, it's on the first page. [paper rustling] defined as severely disadvantaged young people. Does that include young people with severe physical and sensory disabilities? [Dodsworth:] Yes, the Compus course was really a a further work orientation course, for people who had just left school. [Foster:] Mm. [Dodsworth:] And generally speaking, they had left the special schools of, is it St Christophers in er Lincoln, and er other special schools, and they were not, they hadn't had sufficient er work experience or knowledge of the possible market to find jobs at the moment. And so what we did, we ran this particular course, erm, for which we we received a fee, but it came back as expenses area, wasn't under the same arrangement as the rest of it. And and we pla, got people placed in various work places which was sympathetic to their particular disabilities. When you get down to these groups of people, you have to work with each individual, if you, you'll know, and find somewhere where you can capitalise on their strengths and hopefully get away with whatever disabilities they had. So some people were very low academic people, some had physical problems, and er, some had er, combination of problems, erm which er very often you would find er combination of problems. But it was irrelative to accept that sort of course. We had run one in an earlier year, erm, I think that was slightly a different type, but that, er, the idea was the same. [Foster:] Have you thought of sorry, chair. [speaker002:] Mm. [Foster:] Er will be spreading to the er, other parts of county, as well. [Dodsworth:] Erm, I suspect er that the Tech. if it sees a needs for this. [Foster:] Yes. [Dodsworth:] er, type, would contract with somebody else apart from elsewhere in the County, erm, rather than with us. Er, we're not erm, geared for instance, to deliver a course like that in Stanford, but some other agency may be. [Foster:] Yes. [Dodsworth:] And we haven't thought to do it from anywhere else, other than [Foster:] press forward. [Dodsworth:] We don't, I mean, whatever experience we have, we are not available to any other [Foster:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Okay thanks. Councillor [Golding:] Thank you, Chairman. Er, the question on B five please. Erm, could you tell us a little more about the venture, and the this one. [speaker001:] Yes, I'm I'm no expert, I I, though if you probably are, erm, but as I understand it, it's erm, it's growing or starting plants off, erm, to grow in a soilless culture [Golding:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm, it's it's an odd plant, I've wandered round it, sort of steam heat situation, as far as I can tell. And that fairly quickly, but erm, it's it really producing plants in a... a forced situation, which I don't translate into others, and grow strongly elsewhere, and er, I'm afraid I'm I'm no expert in this plan. propagation. this is this is this is a way that er erm, garden centres and whatever er do produce a lot of their material. And there is quite a lot of growth in employment in gardening centres at the moment. Particularly if you can send somebody who has knowledge of the process, as well as the N V Q, with the point there, that that was being made, erm, and we felt that this was a growth area. We have had quite a few trainees, youth trainees in garden centres, and golf courses, which surprised me, but golf courses apparently could use quite a lot of people. And er, this extra interest we thought would er, you know, force their chances of employment. So we're keeping our fingers crossed on that idea. I think at the moment the... it's the Scottish theory, not proven but it looks promising. Thank you, I'm reassured that it is a viable, promotional future. Well, I think so. I mean, can you. We feel it's got a, in a sense of what we produce within the training situation, we know we can sell. Good. And, we also feel it got a future to the people who are working within it,, in that it will lead them on hopefully, to useful employment opportunities. The people who take this job on, are not necessarily the highest achievers, they tend to be looking for a job with a particular interest in that and are sort of reliable and conscientious people. Perhaps they have been finding our simulated version of you know, to be there early, and to be there late, and sometimes be there Saturday and Sunday as well. Mm. So that, I mean, they they are getting a a reasonable working environment or reasonable view of the working environment, so that it doesn't come Everyone's got a skill it's just having, erm, finding it. Well, Nurturing it, really [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Thanks. Right, anyone else? Okay. Just to come back to Councillor point. The the difficulty in a sense that we got, if we look at two paragraphs towards the end the report. Paragraph five two, actually su actually suggests that output related funding, a hundred per cent output related funding based on achieving jobs and N V Q's, has been tried by Lincolnshire Tech. with a view to introducing it to all contracted providers in nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. We we then actually go over to paragraph five five, which refers to the fact that output related funding, has an effect on Horizons, because essentially we're dealing with people that have got special training needs. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So we we, in a sense we've got a a clash of of principles or a conflict, between for example, the government wanting the the Lincolnshire Tech to have an hundred per cent output related funding, based on jobs and N V Q's which is not er er perhaps, er an easy way of delivering output related funding services to people who've got special training needs. Which seem to me re re re re reasonable to be suggesting that we could lobby government, in order to say that, people with special training needs can't be included within the whole of the hundred per cent linked output related funding,be because the issue is that then, er they do have special training, and that's that that's the justification for them, that particular group. Putting them to one side from the ordinary trainee where you could expect jobs and N V Q's to be the outcome, and for them to be treated as a special case. I mean, I don't know what people would think of that. [speaker001:] Well, I'd like to do, that we do do that, I mean, we have I think made some submissions in the past, but I think it's now quite clear that the fears that we've expressed in this committee over the years, are well founded, and we've got to the point, where the whole er project for the special needs people, is is going is going to be very vulnerable. But I mean, it could be er could be ver we're talking about redundancies now, aren't we, so it, er, I think you know, I'd like to move that we do do that, if the if there's a seconder, and and and lobby very strongly. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] I I wonder, Chair, if I might comment. We have in the past raised this through the er Association of County Councils in the education side, with and we, there was quite a lot of support, and also have had support in the past from er, Kenneth Carlyle and Douglas Howe erm who were, supported the view, er which was particularly in relation to youth training, as this is more adult training we're talking about here. But I I think there is a body of opinion out there that we could tap, which would be supported. [speaker002:] Jim's proposition. Is is it seconded? [speaker001:] Yup. [speaker002:] Right, anybody else want to speak about that approach. [speaker001:] Er, I take it, Chairman, that that this would be through our ideas about the... [speaker002:] Oh, we could do it in a variety of ways. We could actually go to the Association of County Councils. [speaker001:] described, all the avenues that we can pursue, Yes. would that would improve things, certainly would improve things, Mr Chairman. I mean [speaker002:] Presumably Department of Trade and Industry is it, contains erm, Minister of State under our local, all the six Lincolnshire M P's. [speaker001:] Mm Chairman, I have spoken to Kenneth Carlyle and his and he's very sympathetic. [speaker002:] Right. So the the be sympathetic response from us. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Fine. Is that agreed then? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Thank you, Michael. [paper rustling] If we could move to Paper E. Item six, Joint Staffing Watch. Again, back to yourself, Michael. [Michael:] Erm, Chair, this is the Joint Staffing Watch for September ninety-three, and its mandatory on the County Council, that it's presented to the committee, er, within a period of preparation as it is issued to the media. It's the snap-shot of people paid in a period, and it has in it comparisons with the previous quarter, June ninety-three and the previous year, September ninety-two. There are in this second page national comparisons between June ninety-two and June, ninety-three between local authorities. It is of limited usefulness, and it's perhaps a requirement on local government that they could very well drop. Erm, because it seems to, with the changing nature of organisation of authorities, it's used as a comparative purpose, must be er, very doubtful, and we've always criticised it, er beginning the position snapshot on a particular the day, it doesn't say what's in the pipeline or what's going out of the pipeline at the other end. And we do know that from Septem the September report is a particular unreliable one. Erm, but there it is, it it has value just in itself as a snapshot. The next papers that we have, Chairman, are much more useful in management terms, and er, if anybody has any questions on this particular report, I'll I'll be happy to try and answer it. [speaker002:] Thank you. [clears throat] If we just pause for a moment and look at the A C C digest that the papers see. There is an item about this joint staffing watch at item ten, which suggests that the government are also finding that it's got limited use, and are suggesting that these returns should be completed on a different basis, and rather than quarterly, annually. So, this joint staffing watch as it exists at the moment, has got a very [clears throat] restricted shelf life, an and I doubt if it's going to survive. But, anybody want to ask any questions, or raise any points about... about it. [speaker001:] next year, it's very limited use, and we find the same situation in South which is, move that we agreed to that in the report. [speaker002:] Anybody else. Is that agreed, Jim? Fine. [speaker001:] At the farmers expense. Agreed to the report be noted, then. Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. At much... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] A much more substantial document. Paper F, Employee Resource Report. Erm, Chris. [Chris:] Thank you, Chair. Can I just remind er members on the er, additional papers that were placed in fron in front of them this morning. Page thirty-two about Translink you'll substitute for page thirty-two in the report, and the report on Linkway Construction fit happily between pages twenty-six and twenty-seven, and apologies for the lateness of that particular [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] ... report. Paper F, I believe, gives you, as the Employing Committee of the County Council, a mine of information about the employee profile of Lincolnshire County Council. It's numbers, permanent, temporary, casual employees at a at er er first of October, via employment group, full-time, part-time, agenda, grades and ward salary and so forth. In addition, of course, there is a brief commentary by the Departmental Head or the General Manager of the Public Service Unit, saying something about the movement in staffing over the previous year, and a brief word or two about what is going to happen in the current and future years. This report, of course, is capable of further refinement and we will welcome any suggestions for further refinement and we want to improve it. We do want to provide information that is useful to you in in in the overall management of the employees resource and accounting. Erm, always has a [speaker001:] cavia I think the Parliament use, that it er, the cost preparing such detailed information must not be disproportionate er to the use it's going to have, and with that cavia we would welcome further er erm, suggestions as to refinement, and er, I'm not going to go through this in detail. It is all there for you, and we will endeavour to answer any questions that you may have. If we can't answer them this very day, or in fact, if they do not occur to you this very day, but on subse quent occasions, of course, we will endeavour to answer the points a little later on. [speaker002:] Thank you. Certainly we employ thirteen thousand, seven hundred and ninety-one staff as at the first of October. A substantial work-force, and this is th a valuable document, a wealth of information. Welcome any comments. [speaker001:] Just to congratulate the officers for putting this together. Er, I think as the other previous document was usefu useless, this is useful, and I mean, I think it's er something we can't take in a day and night, to spend, to spent some more time over this, because,yo you know, it does reflect very well on, on er, particularly that er, information that we needed earlier, in terms and and er. I think, you know, it it it's er something we made not all that [speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor [speaker001:] Erm, just a quick erm, question, please, Chairman. Will this be available to the Trade Unions? This document. [speaker002:] I'm sure it will be. I'm sure, if it's not already [speaker001:] Well, I'm sure they. I'm sure they will want, what the previous one was, actually. Useless now... [speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor [Hill:] Yes, Chairman, two questions. First on page nine, Computer Services [paper rustling] Er, I know we see an increase in the staff Information Technology. Has there been a corresponding decrease or, has there been an increase at all in other departments er, due, one presumes through having more information there will be a staffing reduction elsewhere. Has this occurred? [speaker001:] I think, sir it will be very very difficult to identify, erm, quite where the reductions are. As you know the authorities or control very very closely, as to the additional members of staff that come on. Erm, and each Chief Officer and each General Manager has to er, look very very closely as to whether we can afford additional staff and er recruit them. But, to identify one on and one off, as it were, throughout the organisation, I it would be er, virtually impossible. In addition, of course, there are great demand for increased information. Indeed, what you have before you, is a demand for increased information, and this is generated by er, a computer system, for example. The growth of er, Information Technology in mounting information is required at member level and chief officer level has indeed been enormous over these years, and does not necessarily reflect in reductions elsewhere. [Hill:] Thank you. Just another question I want to know. [speaker002:] Sure. Okay. No no problem. [Hill:] Er, page thirty-six, paragraph two [paper rustling] The new Environment Officer The first, the question first, and as I understand it, please correct me, erm, the agreement policy was, there was to be one Environment Officer, Personal Assistant. Here is, that there's mentioned of further assistance. Also, there is also, further assistance, further assistance to or support to members in addition to the extra secretary that is being established. First questio, the question, and I'd like to comment as well is, erm, what, are there plans for the future of greatly expanding Environment Department, er, and why is it er, and why is it not being put through policy, first. [speaker002:] Wh [sigh] wh what I remember going through policy is the fact that we wanted to employ us Environment Officer with some clerical support, and I think that that's actually what went to policy. [speaker001:] And that is what is agreed, sir. The er, Environment Officer post has been established and has been filled. The clerical support office, officer has not yet been filled, and that is one of the two mentioned. Because of one of the two mentioned here in this note has nothing at all to do with the environment. Yes, well it is er, yes, well I comment on that, when I get more... Yeah. So... Yes. That that's, I think that's... So the posts that are to be established and to be filled are exactly as those approved by the Policy Committee. No more. So. So as far as I know there are no plans. So are you omitting to say what exactly has been in numbers. One Environment Officer. One Clerical Support. Yes, well, I see fr from this, it's it's not exactly clear, not exactly is what is intended. It implies there are more to come. Not, not to my knowledge. Thank you. Well, I'd just like to comment on the, as here we're talking about the Environment Officer. Er, I should know that, or certainly agree that all the staff in the Environment must have coped ade adequately well before under the preceding system where each officer, each department was was instructed to deal with the environment as it came along. Er, I'm in the view, that this er, Environment Department is at the moment, is doing nothing at all, anything that's happened so far. It don't seem to be any good at all, whatsoever. So I believe it is a rather a waste of money, it's just talking shop, shuffling papers about, and we regret that in in the time when er resources are difficult, staffing could be put elsewhere instead of this [speaker002:] Right, I note your comments. But don't agree with them, but were certainly noted. Councillor [speaker001:] Thank you. [cough] with these posts as well, because it has actually stated we have employed an Environmental Officer. Yes, we know that. And then there are two further posts, two five's over the next twelve months. One to provide assistant to the Environment Officer and the other to provide further assistants into to members. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Instead of one extra, there's two extra. Yeah, I th I mean, I I can I can see precisely where you're coming from. But I think that the two further posts, one is provide assistance to the Environment Officer, which is a clerical support that Councillor referred to. Full stop. The other post, nothing to do with the environment, to provide further assistance and support to members. [Hill:] But why should members need even more support. I mean. [speaker002:] Hang on, that's not the same question as the environment. I think we've got that one sorted out, haven't we? It's... [Hill:] I'm sorry, this is all under environment [speaker001:] Yes. No, it's not [speaker002:] No, it's not. It's under the Exe Execs Department Employee Resources. [Hill:] Yes. I appreciate that, but it comes in the same paragraph, so it, you must admit that it's a little er, confusing. [speaker002:] Well, it's not meant to be. I I mean, there was no intention to to do that. I think we can agree, that there's one Environment Officer, one Clerical Support for the Environment Officer, and one erm, of clerical support for assistance and support to members. Now, I think once we've established that, we can have argument about whether members need more assistance, but at least we're arguing on the same basis, aren't we? [Hill:] I agree now, yes, it was just all in the same paragraph, and it just sort of a bit odd. [speaker002:] Point taken. Councillor [Graham:] [clears throat] Thank you, Chairman. One of my constituents [clears throat] that I read in the newspaper about the erm, the green way in which the party should be moving, and said that erm, he would like me to express my disquiet to and I thought this, perhaps this would be quite a useful place to his disquiet, but Council tax money is being spend on this sort of erm, work [clears throat] when there are far more urgent erm, services needed in the County, and he would much rather have the highways, er, money from, which is now going into the Environment to go into highways, erm, so as er, Chairman council, I'm passing his comments on to you, through this committee. He feels it's a complete waste of money, and he would like it to go, please. So, I pass this message on. [speaker002:] Right. Some people take a view that the quality of of of land, air and water in Lincolnshire is important [speaker001:] Yes, er maybe I wouldn't have mentioned it, but er, well, that's a story of one like dozens of people, congratulating us, that at long last we're going to do something about the environment and protect it for the future of our children, and they consider it money well spent, and asking the question, why wasn't it never done before. I think they know the answer. But it was it was so restrictive, the er, the way that it was handled, you know, just with the er, senior members of the conservative meeting and the er Friends of the Earth and such as that. It never came to the fore. So that now at least the people are becoming more aware, [cough] and people are more aware of the environment so, so I see no problems on that score whatsoever from members, and er not convince people, but er we er advising them more of what's going on, and becoming more aware of the problems that there are within the environment. [speaker002:] Before I move on to other contributions, can I remind everybody that we are dealing with the Employee Resources Report. And this is not a sub-committee of the sub-committee of Environment. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] You've been very indulgent, Chair. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Councillor [Graham:] Thank you Chairman, I I can note that remark, but I do think that we do have to defend the position a little on environmental issues. I mean, the the Tories are ready, shouldn't they complete to environmental issues, whereas every every public consultation or survey that ever carried out, demonstrates every time, that the public are very concerned that they're, of the environment and they will put it at the top of the list, and I think our con the environment by having a dedicated Environment Officer proves our positive er commitment to the environment. It's it's it seems to me to be applauded. Obviously, it's something that's gonna develop, and er, as times does on, more and more issues are gonna be referred to this committee. [speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor [Burrel:] Thank you, Chairman, [speaker001:] [cough] [Burrel:] just a brief comment. I can't remembered who said it a little earlier but they said that the er, conservatives er dealt with the environment as it came along, and it's it's been all too apparent that they kep dealt with it as it came along. It was hit and miss, and it was more miss than hit. And,qui and most certainly demonstrated the need to set up the very same committee as we have set up. [speaker001:] Thank you. [Burrel:] Thank you, Chairman. [speaker002:] A bonus for anybody who wants to move away from page thirty-six, when they make a contribution. I've got Councillors erm, and who have spoken already. [speaker001:] I think I'll er, I think you ought to move on, Chair. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Any anybody else? I'm not, I'd be happy if you were to come back, but not on the environment. [speaker001:] It's just that I've really Chairman, page thirty- three, little one [paper rustling] could somebody er the growth, a review of the authority contracts hire for officers. Why is there, I've assumed from that, there is a need for more contract hire for the officers. Why is this? If I'm, please, if I'd known I'm sorry, sir Yes, it is in the authorities interests that as many of it's travelling employees as possible use the car contract hire scheme, because it saves the authority money, and yes, officers around this large county have the cheapest possible rates. To see that there is a take up of the car contract hire scheme, it constantly has to be held, or kept unde, the scheme has to be kept under review, to make sure that it is attractive and it is what er, the employees want to see, and would prefer rather than an alternate means of transport. So we're, do encourage it, we hope that it will grow and resume counties interest if it does grow. If it does grow, then there is a certain amount of administration that has to go along with it. All of which is costed in. [speaker002:] Point. [speaker001:] Sure, but on that, then we get the benefits of scale, and I think it's it's a well proven scheme, and I think the the evidence is there, that it is [speaker002:] Thank you for that support, Jim. Right. If nobody else wants to make a contribution, do we agree that the report be accepted. [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. If I could just add my thanks to the officers substantial piece of work, which is, I hope going to be used by many members to come for the next year. Right. Can we move on to item eight. Annual Report on Equal Opportunities. Paper G. Jack. [Michael:] Yes, thank you, Chair, erm. About eighteen months ago, this committee reviewed and revised erm, it's Equal Opportunity Policy. And, accept a few requirements on officers which are identified in paragraph er, two of the report. So the report before you is the first real annual report on Equal Opportunities Inter County Council, so you've got all the relevant statistics and in that sense it compliments the previous report that you've just examined. And identifies target which have been pursued, or have been agreed, and are being pursued throughout the County Council. Appendix One of the report, sets out the position in relation to registered disabled employees of the County Council, July ninety-three, and you will see there in summary, [speaker001:] [cough] [Michael:] that we've had a slight increase in the percentage of our employees, albeit that's got to be seen against erm, er er a lower total of employees altogether. It does indicate, nevertheless a step in the right direction. But one needs to add to it at least two relevant considerations. One is that that registered disabled employees and we will be bringing forward further proposals on initiatives to you at the next meeting, and I hope that if you agree, that will be amongst other things with the issue of non-registered disabled employees, and the other consideration in looking at movements in targets and so on, is inevitably the whole job market situation and the opportunities for achieving that. Appendix Two, er challenges a er genda profile. Erm, and I I would like to come on to that immediately if I may, but again it does indicate erm, a movement, in the right direction of getting more er women employees into higher management levels. A small movement, but nevertheless, a movement in the right direction. Erm, this report will be the subject of consultation with your employee representatives after you've received it. Erm, but, having been supported by each chief officer and general manager, you will see in paragraph eleven of the report, the various actions that have been taken over the last twelve months or so, and I would like to pick out particular the fact, that chief officers are now, operating or required to have effective arrangements for achieving equal opportunity in employment in their department or unit. The County Council as a whole, is now operating and using this new logo amber conditions, that go with it for the employment of the disabled. We are going to, [speaker001:] [cough] [Michael:] we have star started a monitoring scheme for ethnic monitoring. A trial some [speaker001:] [cough] [Michael:] people would say. And more particularly in Appendix Three, you've got for the first time, individual chief officers and general managers comments, for achieving a better equal opportunity profile in their department or unit. Erm, I I really don't want to add anything else, other than the summary, erm, that I gave you on Appendix One, Chairman, but if you move over to Appendix Two for a start, erm, this first of all, relates only to our A T T in and we hope in future to improve this sort of information in the other employee groups. Erm, members may well want to look at this, and spend a bit of time examining it. Could I just make a correction, which would help in that respect. On the total [end of tape] Okay, so twenty-nine to thirty-four throughout on all the relevant places. But I I I do suggest to you, that that about demonstrates what we've really known all along, it was subjectively, that County Council actually has more women employees than men. But actually, we need a lot more women employees, in terms of opportunity and advantage to them, at the senior management levels. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Michael:] As I've mentioned earlier, we've we've got a slight movement in the right direction. I hope that the targets that are before you in Appendix Three, demonstrate the way in which individuals and general managers do have, inevitably their targets vary because of the circumstances of their particular er unit or department. Erm, I'll try to answer any questions you may have on Appendix Three, bearing in mind all the detail there, involved. But I do suggest that if necessary, we can come back with answers later on. I do suggest that if you, with your relative responsibilities want to, you could take that up with the individual chief officer and general manager, and I just do need to draw your attention to the fact that the targets and the whole policy in education, does not apply in schools, because that is the responsibility of ind individual government bodies. So in that sense, your role is purely advisory. With that, Chair, I would recommend that you agree the, er, support you brought before you, which is as I said, will the subject of full consultation with your employee representatives. [speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor and then Councillor [Burrel:] Yes, when I looked through Appendix Three, the Equal Opportunities Targets, and the Public Service Units. When I saw Computer Services, I was immediately a bit disappointed. Er, to say nothing referring to the Registered Disabled and any positive er encouragement taken on. But I can reassure members that I've spoken to the department, and they are committed to attempt to encourage disabled applicants for jobs and taking them on. It's more of an omission on the paper, than an omission in a er, intent. Erm, they do, they are, they they have had er, registered disabled employees previously, er, and they are committed in in one ex example of two work experience er children from the St Francis Special School, they take two every year, er for for works experience training, and I do intend to talk to the General Manager and ensure that they are encouraging di disabled people to apply for jobs of that kind. [speaker002:] Thank you. That's most helpful. Right, Councillor [speaker001:] Well, thank you, Chairman. Er, first of all I would like to say, I'm all for Equal Opportunities. Erm, but I do believe who is the best person for the job. And then to apply for a job, I think should be on the complete basis of what what they are, what they've achieved, what they've done, regardless of whether they're male or female. Erm, there's a perfect example in Appendix Three, in and Planning... It's the second page of of Appendix Three, and to read through it, and I won't read it, because obviously everybody has done. Every is going to be female, now does that mean to say, that if no males apply, or if you only advertise for someone female, which I presumably erm, actually going to er run the impossibly do it. only fe, only males apply they won't get [speaker002:] Could I just... [speaker001:] I mean, I it's it's so it really does it does. When we are trying to get into equal opportunities and, as I say, I agree with you entirely, but I still think that the best person for the job... [speaker002:] I I I take, I I take that equal opportunities does raise peoples erm, blood pressure to say the least. I think that the points that I want to make here, because people come from different positions, is one, this is a long term strategy. Right, in ot other words, within four to eight years. Oay, so there could be So there could be a number of chartered engineer vacancies come up, during those four to eight years, but during the next four years, hopefully, we will be able to recruit one female chartered engineer. Now, the point about merit has to be recognised side by side with opportunities, because the points that I want to say, firstly the the many women and people with disabilities under achieve. Th they then very able to do jobs, but the lack of, for example, training and they don't get into those jobs, and secondly, we need to make an equal opportunities culture, very clear, so that women can come forward, and don't feel as though the they're going into a workforce that it to totally male dominated, which is quite off-putting. So it's about culture, training, opportunities and to make sure that people from whatever walk of life, and whatever gender or race or ability to have, or disability, do not under achieve. I mean, that's m my contribution as as a committed person to equal opportunities, but I'd welcome an example... [speaker001:] Well, if I may, Chair, I would like deal with it in terms of the principle or the policy and then the application to highways planning. You are right, and indeed, all of our advice, all the particular professional that Michael union gives to all of the the er, County Council matters, is that recruitment is on merit. It is unlawful, accept in two areas, to er discriminate in the way that you suggested, but essentially our our appointment process is on merit. It there are two exceptions, that I mentioned, we must give prior consideration in any vacancy that we have for a registered disabled applicant. I would like to see that for a disabled applicant, but nevertheless, for a registered disabled applicant, and we can make special provision for the training of er, under represented groups. And I I hope that when we bring our initiatives to you next month, you will see how we are addressing that. So in general terms, I agree with you, and that's the way it works with the exceptions I mentioned. Specifically in Highways and Planning, if you look at the previous report, the enclos following profile one, you will see that in the Highways Planning Department excepting the offices, it is almost entirely male, and I think this is, it's for the Director of Highways and Planning to say in the end, I think this is an acknowledgement by him that in the way that you mentioned nevertheless it seems to be apparent in some way, shape or form, women are not getting equal opportunity in that department. Chair, may I just come back on on one point. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Thank you. I can appreciate all that, and I I appreciate the way in which females are being encouraged to apply for posts. But I I hope at the end of all this, there will still be how much training you've had, that when the post is eventually advertised it will still be And that is the situation. I I'm pretty sure that that's so, Chair, and you d when you say you're recruiting erm, young people from school, training or, erm, taking them on to engineering vacancies. You do have people from both sexes, of equal abilities and potential strengths, and it would be possible at that stage to have a training pool of people, which perhaps, er redress the balance, and perhaps er gradually have available many people, but you can only do that, if people come forward without skills that you need in order to train them into the jobs. Er, and that's one of the problems, is persuading good people to put their names forward for these jobs, and that's how you present it. [speaker002:] Yep. Right. Yep. Councillor [Dodsworth:] Yes, I think Councillor has just highlighted, is that there is a need for a change in the culture. I worked in a construction industry and er, and it was a male orientated dominated er industry, and I think what Councillor is probably just taking small parts in isolation, Highways and Planning which has at least one chartered engineer and additional female. You've then got to go below that and say, this was achieved through actual and it is the advertising making the public aware that we are prepared to employ females providing they're good enough. And this also has got to be encouraged through the schools, so that er, young er you know women, leaving school, going into career, will realise that they will be accepted into a previously male dominated industry. That's really what it's all about. You know, probably some of us are too old to accept this, but er, the younger people [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Burt, erm, [Dodsworth:] will er the the younger people will be encouraged to start to accept this and it is a change in our thinking, that it, I find it difficult as well. But I'm certain, by doing it this way, we will encourage females to put in for these these posts. Even that our managers have got to be made by way of [speaker001:] Councillor has said, will they be accepted on merit. I would ask, will the men be accepted on merit, and I would suggest that in the past, only a suggestion, but I'm very aware of it, that men were taken on and they weren't even as good as the women, so applied in the past, [speaker002:] Can I just be clear, Councillor that you meant no disrespect to the Councillors at all. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm, 'cos 'cos if you did, I'm sure that that wouldn't be popular in this committee. [speaker001:] Under equal opportunities, they could both be the same age. Yeah, you don't want any [speaker002:] Councillor [Foster:] Erm, yes, thank you, Chairman. It does seem to be on the whole a very encouraging report. I am pleased with the targets that each department's have achieved. Er, with regard to erm, disabilities. for a number of increase in employed. But I would like to say that this is very much, and I think Councillor knows that previous personnel committee, it's all in the mind, we want former administration and one of the latest tests was the adoption of the National Disability Symbol and encourage them to talk about it. Erm, I do understand that er, you know, we've got another report coming to us tomorrow on it, and there may be some additions on it disabled people hopefully about getting more people to, disabled people to That that's another aim we help people to [speaker002:] I think other people want to speak, actually [Foster:] Oh, sorry, of course, I've forgot. [speaker002:] I'd be delighted for your time. I mean, I I fully fully acknowledge that this Equal Opportunities Policy was initiated at a sub-committee on the ninth of October, ninety-two, so, you know, there isn't an argument on this occasion about previous conservative policies coming forward. Right. Councillor [Golding:] Erm, thank you, Mr Chairman. Erm, as you know, erm, we did have erm, Equal Opportunities erm, conference, erm, in erm, what came out of it was the fact that, although you could provide training, it was trying to get the confidence er, into the women to have the the nerve to apply for jobs. erm, and a lot of them training, but unless you can actually erm, increase their confidence, and that is the attitude of the people all over the place. So it's going to take a very long time, because it has been male orientated, but until we get the attitude of the work place, which is encouraging their piers to apply for jobs instead of, oh, of course, I don't think I will apply for that job. And and the women, are very difficult about apply for the jobs, so I think it's going to take an awful long time, erm, I'm all in favour of equal opportunities, erm, on all accounts, and I would agree with Councillor that one of the difficulties about registered dis disability is that, a lot of people who could actually be a registered disabled person, but for reasons of pride, don't want to be registered disabled. Erm, a lady could be, try and get the stigma away from that registration. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you. I mean, I do I do take your point about the culture, and it and it's it is a significant issue, which will take some time, I mean, probably wi with your experience in Social Services you'll know that a substantial number of directors of Social Services are in fact female, and maybe one of the questions that we have to ask at a senior level is, our s senior erm, chief officers, erm, the fact that we've got no woman, chief officer, and it may well be because now that we've got an equal opportunities policy, that we may get applications from erm, very able women who see that we have got a clear commitment to equal opportunities demonstrated in this paper. Councillor [Foster:] Yeah, thank you, Chairman. I know the erm, remarks made about getting extra people to register and to have their green card, I'm probably one of a few councillors with a green card. But, I must say that, having got that, I do not regard myself as disabled, I have a disability, I do not regard myself as disabled, and it's this business that you have registered as disabled person, which is a bit of a stigma. I think perhaps, here though, it might be something, we have had a paper earlier about the J C C's meetings, and it might be something that unions might be able to help us with. Because sometimes, if the employer goes along, people will think, oh yes, they're only doing it to get their quota up, and they regard it as something that just helps us, and we can get nearer our quota, and it might be something that we could encourage the unions to help us with, because they could point out the positive benefits to people to be registered, despite the rotten name that they're called. [speaker001:] Right, so that's a good point for the next J C C meeting. Right, Councillor [Dodsworth:] Right, I I I don't want to repeat what's been said, in fact, I wouldn't like to speculate around the age of any member of the [speaker002:] Right. [Dodsworth:] what I would like to say is, that on the, er, er it is question of culture, it does take time, er, in my experience, I've been very interested in theological debate that's run with the ordination of women. In fact, we in methodism we've been ordaining women for the last twenty-five years, and it has become as natural as breathing to us. But it does take time, and I think, you know, this puts the, this gives the framework in which this can usually open the opportunities and the methodist women are not short of confidence, and I think that's why I married an anglican, you see. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. [Dodsworth:] Well, it it just gives a framework, with that [LAUGHTER] relieve that problem. [speaker002:] Right. Thank you, for that ecclesiastical contribution, Councillor Right, any anybody else wish to speak? Councillor [Hill:] Briefly, Chairman, yes, I I fully note that the County Council will encourage younger women, especially to come forward, er especially to higher grades as they are under represented er, I think there's hope in the future because college and universities are now more what were considered male dominated territory, more and more women are coming forward, and inevitably by sheer weight of numbers in the years to come they will be er, they will come forward, and I'm sure we will find on a say, chief officers for the County Council. Going back to hire and planning section, I bear that all in mind, I do fear that under hire and planning especially, when it says at least they're not... at least that is verging on the possible discrimination, because as Councillor said, if no one, all all the best males forward, and they're all all better than the females, after four years, say, the erm, surely the highest paid, the temptation is going to be say, that er, for example, that er inferior female employee instead of a [LAUGHTER] inferior female to a male. Erm, I think that sums it up. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hill:] When you've coped with a positive situation, which is in fact, I believe is is er, will do more harm that good, as a personal I believe, [speaker002:] Well, two things, I can assure you that married women will remain the one of the most issue on selection. Positive action rather than positive discrimination is the approach, and that, these are targets not erm, contracts, and if after four to eight years, it may well be the case that women have been taken on and have left and at the end of the time, that there there is no woman chartered engineer. But there are targets, and and I think targets are important in order to shape a culture. Right. If nobody else wants to speak, erm, Councillor you're to deliver the recommendation. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker002:] Thank you. [Golding:] recommendations one and two. [speaker002:] Right. Thanks, that's Paper G. If we could move on to Paper H. Trade Union Recognition. Jack. [Michael:] Yes, Chair, if I may, it'll be relatively quick. We brought a a report to you, er, last time, in relation to Trade Union Recognition in the er B sector, giving up most of our erm, employees have now gone to the independent colleges. We undertook to, you sorry, you authorised us to de-recognise the three unions that were recognised in that field, if the unions agreed, I have to report that two of them have, and the other one naturally, discussions are still going on. We will report further as necessary. [speaker002:] Any comments? No... Is it agreed with a recommendation. [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Paper I. Agenda Item Ten. Local Government Reorganisation. Staff Commission Report. [speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. I'm not sure to what extent we in Lincolnshire will have to take the Local Government Staff Commission seriously. I'm not at all sure that er, Monday's announcement will er, make it any clearer, but we will see. It is, however, right and proper that we do report to this sub- committee on the activities of the staff commission, and that I do in the paper before you. In paragraphs two onwards, I give the names of the local governments staff commission, erm, what their statutory it is, and can I just point out at the bottom of the page, paragraph five, please remember that the staff commission is advisory and it has in itself no mandatory powers. It may recommend to the government and the government makes its powers, but in itself, it cannot er make any mandatory arrangements. It can merely advise. Paragraph six, detailed what the Secretary of State of the Environment is asking the staff commission to advise him on, and paragraph seven, gives some details of a circular which the staff commission has already put put out, which for the moment at least, really more applies to other authorities such as Cleveland, who are now, or the Isle of Wight, who are now in to this particular situation. Staff commission has issued a number of consulta or has issued a consultation paper, and I detail that in paragraph eight, and in our response to that, basically, we have said the nineteen seventy-four arrangements for the staff commission seemed to have worked very well, and we hope the staff commission will, the new staff commission will stick very closely to that, and only vary them when they've got a perfectly good reason for doing so. In paragraph nine, I report that erm, members of this council including the Chair of this committee, Vice Chair Committee Councillor met with this local government staff commission here in these offices. Erm, we have a very useful meeting. We direct our, directed our input in our meeting on two erm, strands. Firstly, erm, issues of principle, and I I've outlined those in item nine one six, and then acquainted them with the Lincolnshire situation, special things that we thought applied in Lincolnshire, that they ought to be aware of. Clearly, for example, how er, employee prime card, including for example, the erm, P S U arrangements that we have here, which is perhaps not common to other parts of the country and so forth. And we made all these points clear to them, we also very much drew their drew their attention to making sure that any rules or advice they gave, did actually work out in an equal opportunity way. There's some danger that you can erm design rules, without understanding what the effect of those would be, on perhaps women employees of local authorities. We drew all those to their attention. Some of it was clearly new to them, and er, they made the right responses. In addition, I agree and I have now done so, supplied them with further information about this county's employee profile, and that's sir, is where the matter now rests. [speaker002:] Thank you, anybody want to ask any questions on local contribution. [speaker001:] Not really. [speaker002:] Sorry [speaker001:] I was just commenting er, you know, we just want to work in the County of Lincolnshire, I presume. [speaker002:] That's right. I mean, there there are two issues. The first is, where is Lincoln going, Lincolnshire going to left after the local erm, government commission put their proposals forward and the government have a look at them, and then secondly, what our, as we note from Item Eleven, a fuller report will be brought to this sub-committee when the local government staff commission or the Secretary of State to give us definitive advice. So we're waiting on two fronts in a sense. Anything else. [speaker001:] Just, just to comment on... [speaker002:] Councillor [Chris:] Er, one thing I think we highlighted after the meeting with the... they're sort of working awareness of the setup in Lincolnshire, if you look at the er, structure of the er, commission, one from personnel, chief executives They did seem to have er, very little knowledge of a rural shire county. And if you look at, er in para six, arrangements for staff transfers, you couldn't find staff transferring en bloc. They didn't realise the implications of that in Lincolnshire was regrettable centralised in a system operating out of Lincoln. You know, on er, sort of long process over a number of years. If er there was the in Lincolnshire, try and transfer those, you know, en bloc it's just not on. And especially with the age group higher er, and again not being disrespectful to anyone, it is, is a lot, the average age is much higher in some of these administrative posts. In other words, people have settled into an environment where they live, and to even attempt to get to talk and get themselves out. You six off to Boston, you six are go round to you know, just stamp them, you know Lincoln. And, anyway, we did put them in the picture, they left much more knowledgeable than when they came. That that, I mean, the er, guy from er Doncaster was referring to his experiences in nineteen seventy- four, wasn't he? urban area, which is completely different to Lincolnshire. And it worried me that these are the sort of people that would have been advised into the committee. If our officer had not sent them away with lots of facts and information. The fact that they do that [speaker001:] Which I've now supplied. [Chris:] That's the whole [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Only one significant point is that the County Council's workforce that has more than twenty per cent of staff over fifty years of age, which is quite unusual compared to other local authorities, and it has quite serious implications for the pension fund, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in terms of paying out any enhancements if people take early voluntary retirement, or are made, erm, if a package is with, at at at the time of government reorganisation. So that's quite a significant erm, issue that we've brought to their attention. Right. Do we agree that the report should be noted. [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Agreed. Thank you. Can then we then move to Paper J. Local Government Superannuation Scheme. There's two parts to it. [clears throat] The efficiency scrutiny and the compensation regulations, and Jack's going to deal with both of them. [Michael:] Thank you. If I may I'll tackle the second one first, and that is to say the proposed er alteration to the compensation regulations. I think it's wise for the local government superannuation scheme. Erm, we were consulted by the A C C as it were, between committees and had to respond on proposals for giving individual local authorities wider discretions in paying compensation to their employees, erm, the issue here actually summarised quite well in the digest that you already looked at Paper C. The relevant which, at one of which was that the A C C sought powers for local authorities to have a discretione a discretion to award up to an extra, up to fifty two weeks pay in addition to existing statutory requirements. The proposals Department of the Environment are actually for sixty- six weeks, but including existing statutory requirements, which can be as much as thirty weeks for the long serving employee. therefore we have supported the A C C line on the basis of the flexibility that it would give you, as an employer, bearing in mind, you don't have to do anything, it will be your choice in the individual case, er, within your policies. We've, as I say, we've supported that. Since then, there's also been erm, consultation as to whether that principle, or rather those extensions should be implied plied to your other pensionable employee groups, i.e. teachers and firemen. The consultation at present is on teachers and the Department for Education's view is, that those regulations should not be extended... to teachers, but the support of the Director of Education, County Fire Officer and County Treasurer we have erm, suggested that any change to the local government superannuation scheme should be extended to those other groups, because quite frankly you can't complicate different arrangements if you simple take the score. But if you like, governments could do this for the non-teaching staff and not do that for the teaching staff. So I hope that you will agree or confirm the action that we've taken in expressing those sorts of views. One more thing, if I may, we've just been told of the government's first response to the consultation arrangements, sorry, wrong wrong item, it's all right. Stop. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. [Michael:] It's an answer, it's on item two. [speaker002:] Fine. Contributions on Item Two before we move on to Item One. As logic demands... Right, Okay, can we go then, to Item One. [Michael:] Yes, Chair, as as as as some management will probably know, erm, the Department for Environment has had an efficiency scrutiny report, on the local government superannuation scheme, and the finance sub-committee er agree County Treasurer's proposals for comment on that, as it were, since the recommendations of the Scrutiny Report are set out there in paragraph one three of the report before. The three main headings, and I'd like to concentrate on the de-regulation and the flexibility points rather than administration of this. Erm, it was not possible to get your views in, as it were, personnel terms rather than financial terms on that er report, but er as it were on your behalf, we supported the Treasurer's er recommendation for reasons set out in paragraph one four, and if I can er explain that for you a little little more, de-regulation could mean, that each employing authority has it's own scheme of superannuation, or not, and if not would simply leave employees in a position of taking them off the state scheme S E R P S or going for a personal pension. Clearly, apart from the financial arguments, in terms of employment policies, if that is the case, erm, then, employees who are present see their pay, their total pay or reward package, has included the benefits of the local government evaluation scheme, will say, well you take that away, or you'd better start doing something about our pay arrangements in recompense. And that itself, takes you into inevitably, the cost side of that, and clearly against that background there are potential industrial relations implications, if those proposals go forward. I hope that on that basis, first of all, that you agree with the views that we expressed in anticipation of your view, and secondly, erm, that we really do need to look at through you, these sort of aspects of pension management on behalf of the County Council. Don't want to interfere at all in the business of the administration of the scheme, the investment side of it, but there are clearly, discretionary areas in the superannuation regulations, which effect significantly your pay, employment and reward policies. Hope you agree with that, er Chair, all of the recognised unions were informed of the County Council's approach in early decision, and supported it entirely. Sorry, and it is this one that we just got an update on. Erm, and if if I can just, we will Treasurer and ourselves, be reporting to you in more detail on this, in the appropriate areas, but suffice it to say, that the government are accepting the need for further investigation on some of these issues, to look at some of them in the light of the national B U D report, on superannuation and pension arrangements generally, have nevertheless agreed that individual authorities ought to have some more discretion, and the compensation regulations that I mentioned earlier, is one example of that. [speaker002:] Thank you. I mean, it does seem to appropriate to say, that the both the personnel sub-committee and investment sub-committee are inter-related committees with common agendas. Quite simply, personnel policies that we set can have major impacts on erm, the funding of our superannuation scheme, and I think that at some stage in the future, it may be appropriate to think about a seminar for both of those committee members, to look at both the the good report and the the Department of Environment scrutiny, erm... So. Anybody want to make a contribution. Councillor [speaker001:] Yes, just a point of definition, really. I I I just wondered with the so-called [paper rustling] if staff members independent advice, erm, on what is best for them to do with superannuation pension scheme. [speaker002:] Normally, we'd have yeah, normally we'd have Roy here. But he's in hospital, I believe, at the moment. Who wants to take... [speaker001:] But but but the answer is that, I'm not sure of officers, but it's something like County Treasurer, one of the existing County Treasurers and the Superannuation Manager, Roy are registered as independent advisers. I think they may be rethinking that, and maybe bringing proposals back to you, but that's the crunch. [speaker002:] Councillor [Dodsworth:] I totally agree that there is er I think, probably a need for seminar, you know, it's an area, it's er, it's changing, you know, all the time. Erm, we all know the problems that some people have got into by opting out. [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [Dodsworth:] and that er, you know, has lead to a lot of misery in some cases, er, also I mean there's question of viability of our own scheme and I er, think er you know, er there are a number of questions which I as a lay-man would like to be, you know, I think the seminar is probably the right to do that. I would er, if [speaker002:] It depends on timing, because I'm not sure when government reports are coming out. Anyone [clears throat] excuse me. Right. Do we agree the recommendations, then. [speaker001:] Agree. [speaker002:] Thank you. Right. A trip into Europe. Item Twelve, Paper K, European Community Recent Development. [paper rustling] [speaker001:] Thank you. The committee has asked from time to time, that I keep it updated with er European legislation, in so far as it affects employments matters, and this I've intended to do in Paper K. There are two Appendix. Appendices. Appendix A reports a European Councillor of Directive, ninety-three stroke one-oh-four stroke E C. Which erm, is being challenged, or would like to be challenged by the U K including European Court of Justice erm, and that will be heard in the timescale that these things take place. If it were to be erm, [cough] not annulled is it likely that the directive would affected from something like ninety, late nineteen-ninety-six. Paragraph four gives you this summary of the main provisions of this directive, and there they are, for your consideration or observation. Appendix B is rather one earlier in the process where the European Community have produced a green paper, on European Social Policy, which will have impact upon employment legislation later on in the process. This green paper is capable of being commented on, by this sub-committee through, our normal channel would be the A C C. It doesn't contain a lot of detail, it is a matter of principle, and er, hopes and aspirations. Where we think and I mentioned this in the conclusion, and indeed, in the recommendation, where we think as officers it rather falls short, is that, although it does mention in the text, equal opportunities in all our er, activities as we would understand it here. It fails to put forward any options for accept for erm, equal rights, for disability or race, and we think this is an omission, and if it were your intention to write a response, we would want to include that point in the response we make. [speaker002:] Thank you, Chris. Can we look at Appendix A, first. [paper rustling] The recommendation is simply that it be noted and I wondered if anybody wanted to make a contribution, or ask any questions, put anything forward, on Appendix A. Councillor [Graham:] Yes, thank you, Chairman. [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] I would, I would hope that as erm, as a committee we can support all these objectives, er, it does give me some cause for concern, that our own government is objecting to these... provisions. Erm, just to comment on, for example, maximum average erm, hourly week, forty-eight hours. Erm, only the other day in the Transportation Department we were talking about drivers hours and er, it's obvious implication there on road safety where the government are trying to relax the provisions, for what's the European committee are trying to tighten them up. And er, we see on the media, very often, the problems faced by doctors in hospitals working eighty hours. Once again a proper scandalous situation, that we we should be working to er relieve, but doesn't seem to be the way that the government's moving. I hope we can support this one. [speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor [speaker001:] Er, yes, Mr Chairman. It night-shift not to exceed eight hours. Quite a number of people on of twelve. Er, how's it going to affect them, they're quite happy to do it, and er. There won't be a deregulation, of course. [speaker002:] Hang on, Jim,Ji Ji, I'll write your name down, all right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right, hang on, right. Carry on. [speaker001:] you see people of priority, that deliver employment, Mr Chairman. Whether they go on late at night, or, hair cut the next morning, it's not, it's not to the wall, but er, this would appear to cut right across the board. That they aren't going to be allowed to do that. Which means some changing at night, or doing a bit with the night, or other one. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] How, how, how does that fit in to [speaker002:] Right. That's that's part of, of presumably, one of the objections from the U K Government, erm, that [clears throat] essentially, it's saying that that these arguments can't be, justified on health and safety grounds and that that the approach, de-regulation and freedom in the market to al allow people to do what they want to do, which is the fact that they, if they want to work twelve hours, then presumably the Government and yourself are supporting that that freedom. On the other hand, one can argue that it's not about, necessarily, what individuals want to do, it's about providing a framework that is good in health and safety terms. [speaker001:] Well, well, this this is what I'm getting at, Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman. Er quite a few, I know, in security work, they prepared to go on not later than eight o'clock at night. So they can stay on normally, in some part of the year it is dark, but yet there's other people around and about, and they get in situ before very late, so the twelve and twelve suits them, and it's better for health and safety, and erm, in other, Mr Chairman. [speaker002:] Regulation tends, is intending [speaker001:] Is what they want to do. [speaker002:] Regulation is intended to protect everybody's interest. Councillor erm, [speaker001:] I'm glad you said that, Chairman, I was I was just thinking erm, cut out the but, regarding on Equal Opportunities, erm, Policies, as we've been discussing already, I would have thought housewives would have been delighted to have conservative hours rest presumably I just thought I was [speaker002:] The right contribution helps our meetings. Councillor [Hill:] Er, thank you, Chairman. Well, I give a vote that erm, because certainly not everybody's aware that er, this er Service director is merely a way to get round to payments that different people have opt out of the social chapter. Well, what people forget is that, if you put employers in a straight-jacket, the people who suffer first, are the employees, which as you appreciate will not take on the future. One of the reasons why er Kenneth has a respectable crippling this country, is because there is more flexibility over there to this country. advice is taking people off, with, in the knowledge that they will not necessarily, er, er, er put themselves in a straight-jacket. Er, we keep meaning look at certain things report a eight hour week, including overtime, have a record period of four months and then the filing industry take it away, the work is seasonal. That's the of con of considerable concern, and it will mean possibly that faith er farm workers who rely on overtime to increase it's wages will will suffer as a result. So I do hope [clears throat] er that we that we do not support this, er, we've got to remember, it's not, Europe, is not the end all and be all of the world, there is a there is a Far East out there, there's the Japans of the world, the Koreans. Their employee costs are much lower than ours, their social costs are much lower than ours and in and in the real world, we have to compete with them, and the boiling point will come from being competitive, supplying goods and services at a cost that the other countries will not by putting themselves in straight-jackets. [speaker002:] Thanks. Councillor [Dodsworth:] Oh yes, I've come to er just ask the advice on the officers on the Appendix A Six er, negotiations., i.e. flexibility clauses for certain circumstances, for certain mistakes. flexibility er in implementation, and I think that that is the necessary part of it. But what, I think we do need to have is quite a a a a a we've not a no solution body who would agree with me, er you know, some of the things that have gone on within the er er agricultural industry in terms of gang masters, which is if if surely if if if we had been more clearly defined if would enforce probably the whole industry into disrepute, and I feel that we do need a a a a a a a framework, with a with a supply into Europe, because in the end we will not just be competing against other European countries we will be competing against the third world and some producers that are producing very different situations, so, I I think er, and and I'm concerned that it is the, it is that delegation, and it is the interpretation that our own government will put on it, because there's been so much mythology surrounding Europe. I went to the er conference that we had at Stokewatchford, which together with er, John, er my Vice Chairman er on Europe, the other week, and there is so much mythology, er, that has been dispensed by people who are half-hearted towards Europe or got a vested interest in no has not been committed to Europe, and and they use this, and in fact the classic example was, that, one of our own Lincolnshire M P's claimed that he had saved, Lincolnshire's from the ravages of Europe. absolute nonsense and he took an accolade for that, when in fact, it was never under any threat from European legislation, it was our own British Food Act, and that, our own interpretation of European war, that has brought the threat to us. So I think that there's, I welcome, you know, the Social Chapter on that basis, but it does clearly say, and prescribe, er something that can only be universally applied, and if there are, there is need, there is need, er there is scope for that, with delegation through particular industries, particular circumstances. [speaker002:] Thank you, thank you. Councillor and then Councillor and then we can take the recommendation. [Burrel:] First of all, Councillor comments, erm, you know, there seems to be this this er conservative mentality, that is let's drive all our working conditions down to the level of the competition, which means, you know, we would have a a mining industry if we were prepared to put children in, like that do in Columbia. Now, now I, now I, personal arguments has always been that we raise people's standards, out there, throughout the world. Not not, bring people down to the worst conditions that we can find in the world to be competitive. This is, it it's not the attitude that we need to be taking, and there's no where else we'd be supporting in, in in this, er, opposition to this particular European Council of Directive. It, I mean, it disappoints me that we are the country in Europe that that's always dragged, kicking and screaming to the table, to discuss things like this, which are the benefit of the majority of the people in the in the European Community. It's just those few, committed capitalists that see profits as the only, the only motive to be on this earth, that seem to be, was was they seem to have the influence in this in this country, and and like er, I'm I'm hoping that this er, er British Government objection to the Court of Justice does fail, as as is er suggested it may do, erm, and let's let's hope it does, and let's hope that we get this er, implemented. [speaker002:] Thank you, thank you. Councillor [Chris:] Yes, er thank you Chair. I can't see anyone can disagree with the objection [speaker002:] Oh you can, I mean, we've just heard some. [Chris:] Yes, well probably, it's time for me to try and change his mind. Er, because er, we, do we want the rest of the world to follow us, not for us to follow the rest of the world. And he mentioned about both competing with China and er er the Third World Countries. Very recently, not so long ago, I saw on programme on India, in in one of the sweat-shops, you saw young children, boys and girls about twelve years old, on their hands and knees making matches, and a man walking down the centre with a stick. That was, that's the reality of cheap imports from the Third World. Now, the er, whilst we cannot expect them to adopt say our ideals, because we are er, you know, we're probably more modernised in lots of ways, but we can set a standard which they work towards, and er, he mentioned about the fact that people er, the unemployment's coming down a lot with the jobs, they're just part-time jobs, and they're very cheap paid jobs, and very er bad conditions for a lot of people as far as health and safety goes. Because we mustn't miss the point, it does say, it's er, the government is objecting be on the grounds of health and safety. Now this is leading towards that, to make people work too long, especially part-time jobs, come from one to another. They could be very tired, we've seen er, er the consequences of that and er, a lot of er these accidents happening on er, with the coaches and one thing and another. Because people have done one job, during the day, and then having to go on to another job at night, and make no mistake, that, you know, this is the sort of legislation that we need, to protect us, the public from what, you know, the consequences of somebody working [end of tape]

[speaker001:] Now look at our country, we are absolutely by we want more, we want fewer regulations, we want to be able to live on an island, without being told what to do, by the politicians, and I support the view that politicians ought to stop telling individuals what to do. And this particular public regulation is all about and protecting us from ourselves, and although we do need protection from of the world, we don't need protection from ourselves. [speaker002:] Right, thank you. No other, no further contributions, right we can start [speaker001:] recommendations. [speaker002:] [clears throat] right. To be noted. [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Agreed. Thank you. [speaker001:] No. No. No. [speaker002:] Right. Well, it's not a positive action that is noted, as we're actually saying that we've we've read it, basically. Can we now move on to Appendix B. [speaker001:] We've not really understood it, Chairman. [speaker002:] Appendix B. Right, Chris has already been through this part of it. Does anybody like to make a contribution on Appendix B... Right, [clears throat] the point is that we're accepting that we support it, and that the Association of County Councils and that's the International Affairs Sub-Committee of the A C C be informed of the County Council's support, of the options set out in Appendix B. Is that agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Can we now move to Item Thirteen. Paper L. Director of Corporate Services Report. [speaker001:] Could I just say, that erm, the record of the erm issues of re-grading, longer hours, and so forth I noted the comments made on it. [speaker002:] Thank you. Anybody want to raise any item, either on the covering sheet or the Appendix. [speaker001:] recommendations [speaker002:] Is that agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Final item on the agenda. [speaker001:] this is a record of the erm, circulars that have come into the County Council, if anyone casts their mind rapidly down the list, you'll see one point five, one point five, one point five. Seem to be almost anywhere except on over the page at the top, where it says one point four, and that was er, local authority fire brigade, other than that [speaker002:] Right, any questions. Recommendation is that, is it the report be noted. [speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] that's the end of the item. Thanks for your attendance. I declare the meeting closed. [speaker001:] Five pounds. Nobody put five pounds on the table, eventually. Ah. [speaker002:] I didn't, I would have I would have accused that Jack would actually publicise this as another Westminster scandal. [speaker001:] Right, thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] What do you want done with this? [speaker002:] I don't know, have a word with quick word with Jim. [speaker001:] Unavailable.

[speaker001:] Before starting the formal business, I would ask members to stand in silence as a tribute to the former Lord Mayor, the late Councillor... Move to the election of Lord Mayor. Have I a nomination for the office of Lord Mayor for the year? [too quiet to hear] Thank you very much. Is that seconded? Yes er Chairman I I formally second that. Thank you very much Councillor... Councillor I understand you have waived your right to speak to the nomination in favour of Councillor. Councillor would you please like to s gives me pleasure to be involved in the nomination for the office of Lord [tape cutsbreaks here] April 1992 for s Councillor. It has been my pleasure and privilege to have known since 1967 when he made me a member of the Labour Party. Since that time I have come to know him and his wife and I can vouch that together they will be first class first citizens of and the office of the Lord Mayorality will continue to be respected and dignified and enhanced by their terms of office. Before I reveal to the distinguished company gathered here this morning some of Councillor good works, I feel it incumbent upon me and appropriate to pay tribute to Councillor, our Lord Mayor, who died in office in April and I offer my sincere condolences to Mrs from my party and the Council. Councillor has lived and worked all his life in with the exception of his war service in the army which was spent in the South of England, of which I will make mention later., I am told, did not come into politics, he was born into politics and I understand that his parents were strong and prominent members of the independent Labour Party and the Labour Party. and I share some common history, for in our early adult life, both of us have held high office in the Anglican Church. We have both held the office of Head Server, he at and I at and both of us remain members of the Anglican Church. The word commitment is extremely important because whatever has happened, and goodness knows what will happen in politics, commitment to the Labour Party and loyalty to the Council will remain. The essential driving force is always difficult to define but the one thing that has struck me about is his intolerance of injustice wherever it presents itself. I make this point because I am sure that during his year of office he will continue his fight against injustice and let officers of the Council and the Labour Group be aware. has held just about every office it is possible to hold in the Labour Party. He has been prominent, not only in Ward organisation but also in Constituency Party organisation. My recollections of will always be around that of Treasurer. The Labour Party has always been solvent whenever and wherever he was in office. In fact, when I joined the party in 1967, I was charged six shillings for my annual subscription. The following year I was refunded three and ninepence by his successor because I had been over-charged. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] There are a considerable number of Labour Party members sitting in this Council Chamber who have given a greater financial contribution than they ever expected to make because was Treasurer. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] He was prominent in the Co-operative Movement and Party over many years, during which he held various offices. He worked in the private sector of industry in the w d in the wool industry for many years when wool was the staple industry of. Later he came to work at the house which was his first entry into Local Government. From here he entered N A L G O and held high office within the Union and many members have to thank for representing them at pay s pay negotiations etcetera. He was a founder members of the N A L G O Sports and Social Club, along with Councillor,s sorry, along with former Councillor. There was always political sparring around the bar when these two people were present and I am told that not many rounds were bought, but many rounds were fought. In 1981, the same year as retired from working life, he was elected to Metropolitan County Council, eventually becoming Chair of the prestigious Personnel Committee. Of course, these were difficult years and the life of his term of office on the County Council was extended by one year by the Government because of, because abolition was imminent. So 1986 was elected a member of the Council for Ward. At the first meeting of the Labour Group he was elected Secretary, a position which he has held until today. has always involved himself with the community and it was during his first term of office here that one of our cherished hopes came to fruition, a community centre for, called The Village Hall. Meanwhile, over at, also in the Ward, there was a new replacement building for Community Association which, incidentally, under his Chairmanship, goes from strength to strength. Serving on the Housing Committee and then on the Social Services and Strategic Housing Committee, and back to the Housing Committee, has devoted his work to this area of Council activity. Vice Chair, I have given the Council, I believe, many good reasons for electing to the office of Lord Mayor for this year. But I promised earlier in my speech that I would mention service in the Royal Artillery during the Second World War where he rose to the rank of Sergeant. He was put in charge of a huge gun protecting the South coast of England from any invasion. This gun was in fact called His Majesty's Gun Blastbuster and it required a contingent of a hundred troops to operate it. The idea was that, when the right moment came, the gun would be transported over the sea to assist with the allied invasion of Germany. However, the cost of the efficiency of the Royal Engineers in blowing up bridges, the gun never left these shores because most of the bridges was not strong enough to withstand it. was disappointed but pleased that the war was coming to an end. Essentially is a man of peace, even if he doesn't always give that appearance. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] can tell many stories about this gun and recently, when another gun er was being assembled for transporting to another country, was able to explain with the aid of a photograph that such guns have existed and this received publicity in the Telegraph and Argus. Forty two years ago was married to. I haven't said anything yet about. She too, has many accomplishments, worked for many years in the Rating and Valuation Office, now the District Valuer's Office. is an amazingly calm person and by her intuitive skills can bring peace to h to heated situations, an exceptionally useful gift when married to a politician. She will make an excellent Lady Mayoress and will keep calm through the more turbulent moments of being Chair of this Council. There is nothing more to say except I hope that their year of office will be filled with happiness and wish them well with all their endeavours on behalf of Council. [speaker002:] [clapping] [short break in recording] [speaker001:] Councillor, do you wish to speak? Yes, thank you very much er [tape cutsbreaks here] Er, on the first day that I joined this Council which was the first day that you joined er Councillor. Ah but unlike me, him, I was a raw recruit whilst he had experienced County Council and he had worked on both sides of the Council Chamber as a as a Government Officer, I believe, and er County Councillor. But I was a commanded to go to a seminar. Now seminar in point of fact was new to my vocabulary and I had ideas of it being some sematic ritual with a small operation at the end of it. In fact, it wasn't. Ah, thank you very much, yes. Now, shortly will be donning the mantle of a very demanding office and I'm sure er that you will fulfil that office with dignity and respect ah and I wish you, on behalf of the Group, a very very happy and successful year to both you and your good lady. Now, you did once tell me, very very recently in fact, that you were the the father of this Council s with rather a contradiction in fact was that because I've seen you trotting around the corridors of this er this Council and it you're more like the baby of the Council than er than the father, but I I do bow to your superior knowledge of Councilling. So with that er honourable guests, Vice Chairman, Councillors, ah I wish you on behalf of the Conservative Group, a happy full and successful year of o office. Thank you very much Vice Chairman. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape cutsbreaks here] [speaker001:] Does any other member wish to speak or put Councillor. [tape cutsbreaks here] Yes,, I've never heard the er the full title before, it's always just been er so I was so as far as I've always heard it. Er, Councillor said how long he he's known er er and I think he said he also got him into the the Labour Party on the first meeting on their early meeting. My first meeting with was e a I doubt whether he actually remembers er but it was actually on an Inter City, I don't know whether he does remember, on an Inter City back from London erm three or four years ago when h he also tried to get me to join the Labour Party if I remember rightly. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] One thing that can be said about is that he he's never drab. Erm, Local Government and Local Council work is often seen as being very drab and indeed we all know that it's becoming probably less exciting nowadays with the constraints that there are and what Councils still require er in abundance are characters, people who bring a bit of excitement to Council affairs w i at whatever level and I think that one thing that has is character, sadly missing in so many younger politicians I must say. So it's a pleasure really, I think it's true, I think there are very many people who undermine and er undervalue the contribution made by people who have been in politics for a long time and I think what they also forget is the level of commitment that these people have put in over many many years. It's very easy for young people to come into politics, full of enthusiasm and full up of get up get up and go and many of them get up and go after a few years. So I take my hat off to any person from any Party who is involved in political life for such a long time because it's an effort and it requires a sacrifice er not only to the but also to careers and perhaps, most important of all, to family life. So I take my hat off to. I wish him a a successful year, a happy year and a busy year and I'm sure that he will be a credit to all of us on the Council. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape cutsbreaks here] [speaker001:] Does any other member wish to speak? All those in favour of Councillor please show. [tape cutsbreaks here] I declare Councillor duly elected Lord Mayor. [speaker002:] [clapping] [general background noise] [speaker001:] I,, having been elected to the office of Lord Mayor, declare that I take thi that office upon myself and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it according to the best of my judgement and ability. I undertake to be guided by the National Code of Local Government Conduct in the performance of my functions in that office... Have I a nomination for the office of Vice Chair of Council? I'd like to nominate the present Vice Chair, as the Vice Chair for the coming year. Have I a second? Are there any other nominations? That being so, all those in favour of the nomination of Councillor please show.... There is obviously a clear majority. I declare Councillor duly appointed Vice Chair of Council. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I,,be having been elected to the office of Vice Chair, declare that I take that office upon myself and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it according to the best of my judgement and ability. I undertake to be guided by the National Code of Local Government Conduct in the performance of any functions in that office... Will you please be upstanding whilst the Lord Mayor departs from the Council Chamber? [tape cutsbreaks here] Honourary Freeman, Members of Parliament, Members of Council, distinguished guests, reverend sirs, ladies and gentlemen. I would like to thank Councillor, Councillor, Councillor er Councillor for the kind things that have been said about me in proposing my nomination as Lord Mayor. I didn't recognise myself, to be honest, er I anticipated all sorts of revelations to b have been made but er they didn't appear. However, I must tell you, yes I am I do and have been Treasurer of various organisations. I am a Treasurer who likes to keep hold of the money, I like to receive it, I don't like to give it out. It reminds me of the words of Robbie Burns, oh would the Gods the gift to gi us, to see ourselves as others see us. My wife and I are very conscious of the very high honour that you have bestowed upon us and I must also thank my Party for proposing, and you all for electing, me to the office of Lord Mayor for the Metropolitan City of. This is an unusual and sad occasion because the man we elected as Lord Mayor twelve months ago is no longer with us. But one thing is very clear, that Councillor will go down in the history of this city as one of it's most outstanding sons, who endeared himself to people in all walks of life. He graced his office with dignity and performed his duties with such excellence that I know I may have difficulty in walking in his footsteps. He was lucky to have the support of his family, but above all, in having as his Lady Mayoress a wife who showed him such love and devotion, in sickness and in health. No-one could have tended and him night and day in his illness as she did., you are with us today and I assure you that all members of of Council join me in conveying our love, affection and good wishes to you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] However, I must com comment on the way that since Christmas the Vice Chair of Council has undertaken the many civic duties he has been called upon to perform, assisted by his wife. While some of us have sought to help, the real weight of responsibility has fallen on his shoulders and those of his wife and I'm sure all members of Council will join with me in saying a very real thank you to them both. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Now comment was made during the er nominations to this office. I can never understand quite why the press are so keen to know somebody's age, it doesn't matter what you do, what you are, but they want to know how old you are. Well, as Councillor told you, I am the father of the Council. If I live, and I certainly am intending doing, until the twenty seventh of August of this year, I shall have reached the ripe old age of seventy five. Well done [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I'm always willing to stand down if somebody can claim to be a little older. I know that the new members of Council have been welcomed into our midst and it must be along time since there've been so many changes. Remarkable that out of thirty people elected last May, fifteen of them are new to this Council, a staggering seventeen percent of the Council if you do it statistically. To them I'll say you'll find things are strange for a time but, with the help of your colleagues, you'll soon find your feet but, for yourselves, avoid falling into the bad habits of others. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker001:] And resolve to take an active part in the in this chamber, but in particular in committee and sub-committees where the real work takes place. It's only a few days since I was sitting in the seats you all occupy, realising the difficult job that a Lord Mayor has to undertake in keeping members in order. Now it's my turn to perform that task and I am sure you are all going to turn over a new leaf and make things easy for me. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I hope so. Er, but rest assured, Councillor, I'm no easy pushover and we'll deal with any who stray from the path. During last year there were a number of occasions on which members made personal verbal attacks on other members. I give due warning that this behaviour will not be tolerated and I will protect members from any unwarranted abuse. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I intend, during my year of office, to get out and meet the people. In particular, I would like to try to visit as many schools as possible. Equally, I would encourage schools to send contingents of youngsters to this City Hall. I want the City Hall to stop being a drab place but to ring to the laughter and joy of young people, so let let's change the image that we are creating. For the people of this city like to meet and greet the Lord Mayor and the Lady Mayoress, we will strive to meet as many people in all walks of life as possible. During the past year, a difficult year, we have seen the beginnings of change taking place. Whilst the country is still in a continuing and worsening economic depression, and while unemployment rises daily, we must be prepared to meet the challenge, must not miss the opportunities that undoubtedly will come our way. The development is about to take off, there is a promise of the electrification of the rail network link with, progress on the trunk road is now a firm promise and it's likely that we shall have er er the trolley buses running in after very many years. Is it too much to ask that interest rates hopefully continue to fall at the f elected on the second of May and wish them an enjoyable and fruitful term of office. As they call out the names of the new members, I would like them to stand so they can all recognise and welcome them. Councillor [clapping] Councillor [clapping] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] and Councillor [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Members will be aware Be careful. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Members will be aware that ex-Councillors and were unsuccessful at the polls and I wish to ask the Council to place on record its thanks to their contribution to the work of this Council made by those members and to wish them well in the future. [speaker002:] Hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] Er, inspection of internal documents. Are there any to report. There are no er no restricted documents, Lord Mayor. I call upon Councillor to move that the dates of the Council meetings for 1991 ninety two be as set out in the Council Agen genda. I move, Lord Mayor. Seconded? Do you wish to speak? All in favour please show. Ok. Pass. Overwhelmingly. Move on to standing orders. I call upon Councillor to move the adoption of standing orders, including powers and duties, together with amendments fees standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor and in so doing to say that the controlling group can accept the amendment proposed by the Conservative Group on standing order C six A. Sec seconded my Lord Mayor. clarification that that's the er just the amendment relating to where you were trying to take away the rights of ward members to attend? as you have taken away the rights of members on questions, comments er and other things which changes the existing circumstances. Happy Councillor Anyway we need you to s to to move your amendment A. Seconded? I second that. Does Councillor, do you wish to say anything further? No Lord Mayor. Alright. Therefore I will as ask for those in favour of the substantive motion, including amendment A as moved by Councillor. Do we? [whispering] we've got the motions here those in favour [] [whispering] do we need [] [whispering] [] Oh, I'm sorry. Those in favour of amendment A moved by Councillor? We'll do it correct... Those against?... [whispering] that's lost [] [whispering] that's lost [] Lost. Thirty three to fifty three. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. [whispering] that will incorporates [] That incorporates [whispering] [] Par [whispering] C six A [] P it in it includes the am amendment moved by er the amendment B standing in the name Councillor but it equally includes that part of er the amendment C six A. All those in favour please show?... [whispering] I don't know why they aren't voting in favour to be honest [] Those against. Well, it's obviously a lot less than fifty three, isn't it? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Don't be too sure of that Councillor. You c can't see behind you, y'know. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. No no I can I can call it again if you want to but. I call upon Councillor to move the adoption of standing orders for contracts and financial regulations. Lord Mayor. Is there a seconder? Do you wish to speak on this matter? No Lord Mayor. Right. Those in favour of of the substantive motion please show... [whispering] and those against [] Those against? I'll give ya a chance. Oh, you're not voting again. Well, it's overwhelming isn't it? I call upon Councillor to move the appointment to committees as set out in the sheets circulated round the chamber. Councillor? I move Lord Mayor Seconded, Councillor? [whispering] all those in favour [] All those in favour please show... Well it looks unanimous. I'd say it's a unanimous decision is that. Call upon Councillor to move the adoption of the cycle of meetings for 1991 ninety two as set out on the Council Agenda, together with amendment C standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Er, all in favour? [whispering] unanimous [] Unanimous. That completes the business of this Cou Council meeting. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [tape change]

[speaker001:] I call upon the Director of Legal Services. Thank you Lord Mayor. Just on item eight and item nine, Lord Mayor, Community Health N H S Trust and Health N H S Trust, to report the fact that dispensations from the Department of the Environment have rec been received for Councillors and, enabling them to take part in the debate but er not to vote. Item two on the agenda of minutes. I move the minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the twenty first of May 1991 be signed as a correct record. Is there a seconder? All those in favour please show. Think that was a pass. Item three is apologies for absence. Are there any apologies for absence? [whispering] sorry [] Councillor and apologies for absence from Councillor Item four on the agenda are written announcements from me, the Lord Mayor. Fire bell and evacuation procedure. I've been asked by the building custodian, acting on behalf of the fire service, to inform you that, should the fire alarm sound, you are required to leave the building in an orderly fashion by the nearest exist. No-one will be allowed to stay or return until the building has been checked. I know that members will share my sadness at the death of Mister, the former Managing Director of the. Mister was associated with the theatre from its very beginning in 1914 when, on the opening night, he was there as a pageboy, until his retirement in 1974. In the words of, General Manager of the Entertainments Section, without management and dedication the would not have survived to become the major force in British theatre that it is today. I represented the Council at Mister funeral service. Would members please rise and stand in silence in memory of Mister... Thank you. joined the Borough Council as Chief Assistant at Museum in 1965. At Local Government reorganisation in 1974 he was appointed as the Field Officer to set up the innovatory Biological Databank. Since that date, under his leadership, his team have established an outstanding reputation, providing an ecological consultancy service to Local Authorities, Water th Water Companies, the National Coal Board and private Companies. Its work ranges from soil analysis to Civil Engineering firms, to drawing up green plans for Local Authorities. Now renamed Ecological Advisory Service, service has been recognised in the Birthday Honours List by the award of the M B E. His service can be summed up in his own words. It gets me closer to my ultimate goal, doing all I can to enhance the environment we live in. Mister is here with us today [whispering] [] and I am sure that members would want to join me in extending warmest congratulations to him on his well-deserved award. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I would like to extend a warm welcome to the two South Africans who are attending tod today's meeting of Council. and are are on three months' placement with, on a three months' placement with the Authority until the middle of September as part of a six months' training programme organised by the South African Advanced Educational Project. The overall aim of the programme is to provide high level training and work experience for black South Africans with senior management potential, in order that they can participate fully in providing Local Government services in a post-apartheid dem democratic South Africa. [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] I hope that you enjoy the remainder of your stay in. The Lady Mayoress and I were honoured to have y have the pleasure of your company when you visited us recently. Thank you very much. And finally, not on the green sheet, I will tell you, to put you all out of your misery, that tea has been arranged for six thirty. Six thirty, tea. A deadly silence at that. S'alright. Ha ha. Item five, inspection of internal documents. I call on the Director of Legal Services. There've been no complaints against restrictions Lord Mayor. Item six which are petitions. I move the petition to be presented from persons requesting the Council to provide facilities for a community centre and youth club at the be received. Is there a seconder? All in favour please show. That is carried. Will the p petitioners please come forward... I would welcome you to the meeting. You sp can speak for not more than five minutes. However, take your time. Please start when you're ready. Thank you. Lord Mayor, members of the Council. I and my colleague thank you on behalf of the people in for this opportunity of presenting our case for acceptance of this petition. Past occurrences, however, make us sceptical about receiving a positive response from a body who, on past performance, have been negligent in the provision of services and facilities for the community of. Contrary to public belief, is not a suburb of but an expanding community in its own right, devoid of facilities and services afforded to others under your jurisdiction. Consequently, in the limited time allotted, I will endeavour to emphasise how important such facilities and services are to the community. The teenage element of the community have one inadequate youth club which does not have the facilities to provide the required range of activities and no amount of proposed refurbishment will entice the majority to attend a club which is badly situated and of dubious reputation. has a youth problem. Drugs, glue sniffing, under age drinking and the like are very prevalent amongst the older teenagers and their influence on others a cause for concern. Certain residents are continuously subjected to unnecessary loutish behaviour and areas of the village frequently vandalised. Complaints go unactioned and complaints are [sound fades for short time]. Whilst this is obviously a concern, it can be acted upon, but the influence on others, who have nothing else to do, far more damaging. The other end of the spectrum is the equally large population of elderly and retired people of the village who quite simply have nothing. The, part of the estate, purchased by the then Village Council in nineteen hundred and five for the benefit of the village, would provide a home for a community centre and youth club which, properly run and organised, would be a considerable asset to the village. Proper liaison with schools and other groups within the village and the utilisation of other premises would enable these problems to be resolved. The premises are currently occupied by the Community College who, by their unwarranted eviction of the ideal non-political Club for gentlemen of the village, prompted this action. The Local Council, in nineteen hundred and four, had the courtesy to call a rate payers' meeting to discuss the proposed acquisition of the estate and, with the approval of the meeting, proceeded with their purchase. The college, apparently with your approval, are proceeding with the eviction of the club against the wishes of the members, Local Parish Council, Community Council and the residents of the village. Rather than lose a small but integral part of the community, the petition was raised to obtain facilities which would be of benefit to the community. We suggest that the eviction is an unsubstantiated, politically motivated, empire building exercise of no benefit to the village. The college have stated that they require the room to facilitate the attendance of disabled students and or aerobic classes. The facts are, aerobic classes are not on the syllabus, facilities for the disabled are highly commendable but not practical in premises where most classes are held in upstairs locations. The was occupied, against the wishes of the village, by the college, with no improvements to premises considered unsafe and too dangerous to be continued to be used as a public library. The proposed courses for the next term confirm that the college will be only using fifty percent of the available time and space for eight months of the year. Would you accept this situation when your village is desperate for facilities and services to enhance community activities and lifestyle? The college cannot justify the use of its facilities, let along expand its activities, as it has neither the resources or required support facilities. It is highly likely, also, that the majority of courses will continue to be under-subscribed. The Council should emulate its predecessors and, without political prejudice, serve the best interests of the communities under their charge, and take the following action. Close the college, try and absorb the classes into the adequate facilities or re relocate elsewhere in the village in Council-owned premises that are more suitable, have been extensively refurbished and, if required, facilitate the expansion of the college curriculum. Two, rescind the eviction of the club. Three, permit the grange to be used as requested. In conclusion, it should be obvious that the people of the village oppose the erosion of its community facilities and that their needs are far greater than that of an insignificant empire builder. Thank you. Thank you. Does any member wish to move the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Seconded, Lord Mayor. Item seven which is membership of committees. Call upon Councillor to move a motion, details of which have been circulation. I believe they've now been altered. Have they been altered? Been altered? Yes Er I I I wouldn't Oh sorry, one two nine, sorry. Er, I I move I move the motion that the education members deleted Cou Councillor and added Councillor All in favour? Sorry I think it's carried. Only just. Good. Councillor m Councillor My Lord Mayor, I'd like to move that on the standing order A seven small D the debates on the items leading to Community Health N H S Trust and Health Service's application to become N H S Trust be combined in the interests of the efficient despatch of business at this meeting and that, in the usual way, they'll both then be taken separately on each matter. I sum up Lord Mayor. favour? Yes. Clearly carried. So, under item eight which is the Community Health National Health Service Trust, call upon Councillor to move the amendmen the recommendation of the Social Services Committee. Thank you Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment A? I'm sorry a seconded by? Ok. Call upon Councillor to move amendment A standing in his name. Seconded? Seconded my Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment B standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Item nine which is Health Service application to become a National Health Service Trust, call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the Socialis Social Services Committee. Moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Now then, we'll move to the speakers. Councillor. Thank you Lord Mayor. In 1942 at the Labour Party Conference they adopted a motion moved by that gave, and I quote, the right to all forms of medical attention and treatment to a National Health Service. This was finally achieved on the fifth of July 1948 when the Labour Government implemented the Beveridge Report. It's worth recording that the Conservative Opposition voted against a National Health Service Bill in fa February 1946. The birth of the National Health Service was also the birth of the Conservative opposition to a free health service. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] The only difference between then and now is that in 1946 the Conservatives were more honest. Now they hide their intentions regarding the Health Service behind the word reform. Reform of the Health Service has been rejected by the British people. Every poll, every questionnaire, has proved this. In a recent questionnaire on a Hospital Trust in, ninety percent of the medical staff, the medical staff, voted against the implementation of a Trust. Conservative Ministers have explained this by saying that the questions are loaded. However, the newspaper asked a simple straight-forward question, are you in favour of a self-governing Trust? The response was three to one against. The Government know what the people want. They are choosing to ignore it, just as they did with the poll tax. hear hear The public's lack of confidence in the National Health Service is in direct proportion to their lack of confidence in the Government's promises. They know that yet another public asset is about to be hived off, with more promises of greater efficiency and better public service. The same things that were promised for the gas, electricity and water, but in rel reality the only section to gain are the fat cats at the top who have recently been given it's obscene pay increases. [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] Talking of benefits, the benefits said to accrue from a Trust can be achieved under the present arrangements. Those are not my words, those are the words of Mister, who made a presentation to Social Services on behalf of the Trust. In his view it would not happen as easily or as quickly but the key point is, it could happen while maintaining the status quo. When Mister presented a case for the Trust, the main point of the proposal seemed to be that the application is only being made to prevent being swallowed by the or Trust. He freely admitted that if the present Government continued, would be completely swallowed up by 1993. At a time when is moving nearer to empowering the people and devolving decisions, the implementation of a self-governing Trust is moving policy in the opposite direction. It's putting a power into the hands of faceless Directors, picked by the Government, just as they pick their friends to head up the privatised National Industries. Councillor has been very vocal about a select committee. He has said there is no need and his group is against the proposal. Well we would expect his group to be against it. His group are against accountability. His group are against area panels and neighbourhood forums where k people can be heard and their views taken into account. His group are not for listening, they're for telling people. Something else, therefore, it's for selling, especially public assets, and they get two pluses in that. They gain the money but public accountability for those services. Once facilities are transferred to a Trust the ability of local communities to influence decision making virtually disappears. Previously Health Authorities were required to consult over the closure of any facilities. This g this safeguard disappears once the facilities are managed by a Trust. It is that gap that the select committee will fill. We'll not allow these unelected faceless Tory supporters to keep the public in the dark. The select committee will be a focal point for patients, potential patients and their relatives. As I said at the beginning, the National Health Services was born in 1948 through the efforts of the Labour Party, the first comprehensive free health service in the world. For forty three years it has been the jewel in the crown of the Labour Party legislation and for forty three years the Labour Party has defended the National Health Service against all comers. by the British people, we will continue to fight any attempt to send the Health Service the same way as the gas, electric and water. Lord Mayor I so move. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thank you Lord Mayor. I suppose I ought to start by saying, what's up doc? Because I think the first question to ask is, just what is this all about? What is this Trust status all about? Why is it being pursued? What's the reasoning behind it? Now, if we are talking about Community Health Services, let's just examine what those words actually mean. First of all, services, the last word there. Well of course you can make profit from services. The private sector makes a lot of profit from a lot of different services provided, but that's not my idea of what public services are, or should be. And don't forget we're told time and time again, almost ad nauseam, that this is to remain a public service within the National Health Service. So just tell us, how does that fit in? How does it all tie in when you look at the requirements stated in the document to actually make a profit on the provision of health services. now, to make profit on the provision of health services, to some people may seem immoral. To me it seems particularly loathsome and, when you look at the experiences in countries like America where it operates, you'll see that we want no part of it in this country. But the return is required, it's on page twenty seven of the document, and how is it to be achieved? Well, if you look at the document, it refers to the bureaucracy, the elimination of the bureaucracy, and how is it going to be done? Four point nine of the Trust submission, well it's gonna be limit eliminated because the Trust will be accountable to the Secretary of State. Now he's gonna be a very busy man this person, if it is still a man, who's going to make sure that all these Trusts are acting in an accountable way and eliminating all this bureaucracy. If he does it without any help I shall be totally amazed and I think that it's simply a facility to assume that there're gonna be reductions in bureaucracy simply by centralising because the record from the past shows that the reverse is the case. So where else are the savings gonna come from? Well, if you look in the document again, there are some wonderful euphemisms in here, er these changes will be implemented throughout the services, page eight, and it will result in increased flex increased flexibility in staffing arrangements and in the general relationship to their employees. Now, what does that mean to you? I know what it means to me. Jobs down the road, that's what it means to me. Now the next word is health, because I've seen no strong reasoning, no strong convictions, that there's gonna be any advantages in health terms in ter er as opposed to directly managed units. I am worried that some people will see this as a mental health trust and I am very disappointed that the emphasis has been placed there and not on services such as the district nurse service which gets scanty coverage within the document. But lastly I'd like to come to the word community, about which I feel so strongly. One of the advantages so called did not involve the appropriate bodies like Community Health Councils or the Trade Unions. It's conclusions, we're not subject to consultation but we're instead given wide and extensive publicity in a series of elaborate video roadshows, with information cascading down. But no notice was taken of information or opinion cascading up. The changes that're taking place, whether or not hospitals opt out, are changing N H S culture. Managers will no longer concentrate on the provision of good quality care but will in will br but will embroiled in the nightmare of contractual agreements and a preoccupation with costs. In those hospitals that opt out, there will be even more pressure to drive down costs and with it the loss of quality care to potential loss of employment and poor returns and conditions of employment for those still employed in the Trust. The Trust makes no commitment to improve the serious levels of low pay. For years, local managers have hidden behind a national agreement, privately agreeing that pay levels or poor, that they have no influence on the decisions made at national level. The staff are now not convinced that with the freedom now offered to managers to negotiate local pay bargain, that these historic low levels of pay will improve. Instead, it is feared that harmonisation of conditions may level down and not raise up. The Health Trust application has no mandate from the public it serves, nor from the staff it employs. The decision was made by senior managers and Health Authority members, none of whom now have any local accountability. About twenty to twenty five percent of the senior cl clinicians opposed the application and the percentage figure amongst other disciplines will be far higher and, as has been said, the main motivation to seek Trust status, is based upon a financial squeeze on with it's neighbours and also seeking Trust status. For to remain as a directly managed unit would place a question mark on it's future. The self interest of the senior managers has promoted the interest in the Trust application and not to a commitment to provide and maintain high quality care. Reference has been made to planning, that er the five to ten year cycle has er proved inadequate. That hasn't been because er Authorities recently have been unable to assess medical and clinical needs, but through a lack of resources. In future I believe that planning will be worse because there'll be no sort of overview, and that it will lead to an over provision of the profitable services and inadequate provision of services like mental illness, the elderly and those with learning difficulties. And the Trade Unions don't regard the N H S as a an employment exchange, but what we do expect is consultation and involvement in those changes. And what we do oppose, what we do oppose, is not inefficiency, but what we do want is quality care. In the recent experience of private contracts in the Health Service is no doesn't foretell of any great quality in the future. And itself has been a victim of that poor quality when private contracts were employed in the domestic service. So I suppose that really to say that we're not er involved in that we're not against efficiency. Choice will be limited in the future, as opposed to being better for the patients, since contractual agreements will be dictated by the purchasers and by the G P fund holders. There's no greater choice for the patients there. Just to conclude, I share the view expressed already by Councillor, that just as the issue of the elderly persons homes brought about the loss of control for the Conservatives in, be sure the Health Service will bring about the downfall of the Conservatives in White Hall. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker001:] Lord Mayor fifteen B I move the vote now be put. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] Seconded carried forty nine thirty six. We'll now proceed to vote on the on the two motions. Remember that while we debated them both together, the vote will be taken as separate items. Equally, I want to remind those who have declared an interest, that they should not vote. The first vote is on item eight Community Health N H S Trust. Will those who are in favour of amendment B moved by Councillor please show... Those against. Well, it's obviously a lot more, so I declare it. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Will those in favour of amendment A moved by Councillor please show. Those against. I think it can be safely said that that's lost. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Forty seven Those against Thirty, thirty two [whispering] yes [] That is carried. Forty seven votes, thirty two against. We now move to item nine which is the Health Service application to become a National Health Service Trust. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Yes Ok Those against. [whispering] thirty two [] That is also carried. Forty seven votes, thirty two against. My Lord Mayor, can I just point out, I didn't see Councillor hand going in the air. He's got an interest. [speaker002:] [whispering] he's disclosed an interest [] [speaker001:] He's disclosed an interest N item ten on the agenda, building a better. I call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the policy and resources committee. I so move my Lord Mayor Seconded my Lord Mayor I call upon Councillor to move amendment C standing in his name. Lord Mayor Seconded? Ah, the poison chalice. What sweet draft. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Fourteen months ago we were told by all and sundry, particularly the media that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to recover from the despair and the destruction of the era and yet, here we sit today, with a Labour majority of sixteen, the biggest Labour majority since this Council was formed. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] What a complete condemnation of the Thatcherite policies that were attempted to be brought in by the controlling group opposite. We have turned this Council round, reflecting as closely as possible the values that the community expressed in the local elections of May 1990 and May 1991. The five themes that we've adopted in building a better will build on the progress we made in meeting the challenge and making the change. Improving the quality of life. This year will see a visible improvement in the quality of life of people in the district. Providing fairer shares will see the building blocks of the anti-poverty strategy being brought into action. Empowering local communities, that's what really frightens the Tories, because what it means is they'll never be able to come back with those repressive and regressive policies that they brought in two years ago. Creating positive partnership. The private sector breathed a great sigh of relief when the Labour group was returned to power in this city. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And supporting the social charter, moving towards 1992, rejecting the negative approach of the Tory Government towards social reform within the community. Members of Council will know that the objective of changing the culture of the Council has gone because we've largely done the job. We've won widespread support both within the Authority and outside, with the voluntary sector, with the private sector and with other agencies, for our approach to regenerating the city. But what of the opposition? Where've they been? What a lame excuse for an opposite. We understand that was de-mob happy for quite some time and erm I know he's been disappointed recently with the Tories losing control of the local Council down down in the happy glades down South but the pink gin and pink knickers approach of Councillor is becoming a joke. There's clearly, there's clearly a no turning back group being formed on the Tory back benches with those Councillors who feel aggrieved after the night of the long knives. The opposition though feels nothing more than a tickle with a feather boa, obviously a pink one. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Even officers are sniggering behind their hands as Tory Councillors pass by. One, because they were duped by Councillor and his attempts to further his own ambitions and two, because of the complete lack of direction which they have shown as a group under the leadership of Councillor. That lame approach is mirrored in the amendment that we find before us today. Stopping to personal attacks, my my. Using information with no relevance to, in my Liverpool home. All I seek is to be judged on my record and the record of this group. I will deal with problems to the best of my ability and I ev have every respect for all other leaders who try and do the same, particularly, the leader of. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] The opposite is so limp that I'm becoming paranoid, I'm developing a twitch, Councillor. I wonder what it could be? It must be the G B H tactics of your parliamentary candidates. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker001:] Despite Tory attempts, despite Tory attempts to darken the skies over, we have emerged into the sunlight, with building a better we will build a brighter future and I move the recommendation. [speaker002:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. I certainly won't be controversial. I will end up on time. So I drink pink gin. I actually drink Tetley's bitter if preferred. What I don't do is pretend to be a socialist, organise five hundred pound a head er ticket dinners as Neil Kinnock does, champagne and then have the gall next day to go to on the nineteenth of July, on the very day when saw what the Labour Group are doing to this city. When Councillor and his Party showed the care and concern they have for our staff, when sixty members of our staff on that day attended a committee meeting of this Council to see the Labour leader open it and shut it without any debate whatsoever and walk out of the room. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] Quite shameful and showing what Labour Party has achieved. I think it was a pathetic spectacle and what the papers we have in front of us that the Labour party have prepared doesn't say are their achievements, I am not surprised they have tried to hide. Labour Councillors vote for a hundred and seventy four pound per couple increase in community charge, one of the biggest in the United Kingdom. Labour Councillors charge community charge payers an extra seventeen pound each for those members of the public that they have urged not to pay the community charge. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] The obscenity, the obscenity of a Labour Councillor, Councillor in, saying his principles mean he won't pay the community charge, but his principles do not extend to not claiming over fifteen hundred pounds worth of expenses, paid for by those people who are paying the community charge in. Labour Party say they want to tackle crime in and we have, and I hope we will debate later on this agenda, the situation where a Labour Chairman of the Police Complaints Committee turns up a public meeting urging er law- breaking and support for people who are not actually gone to trial an a the circumstances of the events really does not concern us but it's the fact that leaflets are now circularising this city, printed by our old friends, the resource centre, urging people to join the Defence Committee, which is supported by the University Labour Party, is supported by the West Labour Party and is supported by the Police Complaints Committee no less. Now Councillor thinks that it was just an accident and people will understand. People will not understand that. I am shocked. Labour Party have crippled Not a vote already Yes, Councillor, will you keep to the subject under discussion and not involving a lot of personal abuse. Of course I will Lord Mayor. I didn't plan to deviate from it at all for the rest of my speech anyway. Well you have up to now. Not drinking any of my gin Lord Mayor Labour Councillors in have crippled Social Services, have reneged on their promises to the people of when one of the biggest lies we've seen on any political papers in was that they would defend and not close elderly persons homes. Labour Councillors have set up over a hundred new Council Committee meetings, an extra six hundred meetings a year, and the hundreds of thousands of pounds that is gonna cost the people of, not the community charge payers, not the community charge payers, but those people, the elderly and the handicapped who are looking for services from this Authority, which the Labour Group will say, we can't afford to provide cos the Government doesn't send us enough money. And so, Kinnock goes to. I'm glad you brought in the subject of, the leader of the Labour Council er in which means I am not deviating, and saying that Mister and saying that Mister is now running a moderate Council. Last week pickets stopped ambulances taking mentally handicapped to schools in. Last week, adults waiting to go to a school for the adult mentally handicapped were taken there three hundred and fifty and only ten teachers were allowed into the school. At childrens' hall, which was picketed for two days, picketed for two days, by this now happy band of Labour people in Coun c c Councillor I'm responding to the No you are not I am You're now talking on anoth on a subject of the Authority which is nothing whatever to do with us this afternoon. Please come back to the sub matter under discussion. I certainly will Lord Mayor Be impartial sir A o one tends to get confused Lord Mayor. If Councillor wants to go and get a G B H haircut it tends to confuse us on this side of the er as to exactly what we are debating. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Councillor says he has turned this Council around. The Labour Group have certainly turned this Council around. They've turned it from a Council that was determined to tackle the social deprivation in this city, was determined to tackle the disadvantaged, such as racial disadvantaged, by supporting the C T C, which gives a unique opportunity to Asian children in this city for education. We are pleased to see that at least the Labour Party now are deciding that they can at last work with the Government. The Government's new City Challenge Initiative, which we are all hoping will be accepted er on behalf of, that they are willing to look at social partnership with firms, although we have reservations about some of their proposals er in that area. Yes, they've turned this city round. Yes, they've turned the people in this district round from the way they were heading. There is now problems on the streets of, there is anger in the outer areas that through your postal code politics people are not getting a fair deal in the outer areas of this city. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] And what more, what more should we expect from a Party that is led nationally by a man who, in 1983, says, there are no circumstances in which I would order or permit the firing of a nuclear weapon, which leads somebody to say, Kinnock's lust for power is so great that he's prepared to ditch any principle to get it. And that's not from a Conservative, that's from the present Chairman of C N D, and wasn't a spectacle that was last week. And we have a nuclear basement, before you stop me, what a spectacle that was last week. He hasn't even the decency to announce it public himself. He sends a runner, Kaufman, to announce it. That's guts. That's Labour politics. [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] Lord Mayor on a standing order A fifteen B I now move the vote now be put. Councillor, my Lord Mayor, in accordance with standing order A seven B and D, I propose to Council that the debate on agenda item eleven, percentage for out policy and agenda item sixteen, notice of motion number nine, people disabilities, be combined with separate votes at the end of the debate and that a provision of the order A eleven J and A fourteen K be amended to limit the number of speakers on the combined debate to three from the controlling group and three from notion parties. I so move, Lord Mayor. Seconded Those in favour. That's clearly agreed. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Councillor [whispering] Councillor to move it [] I call upon Councillor to move the recommendation So moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Item, I call upon Councillor to move amendment D standing in [whispering] her name [] her name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Item sixteen er people with disabilities. Call upon Councillor to move the motion standing in his name. Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Get it over with at this meeting Lord Mayor Seconded? Those in favour? Clearly carried. I am going to call upon Councillor to move. Mhm? Well, Councillor I waive my right to speak to Council members. Ok. Councillor? Hello. Lord Mayor, people with disabilities detest being patronised. They also detest being called the handicapped. hear hear What is more, we hate being used as political footballs by cynical politicians. It's the ultimate insult when that politician belongs to a political party that throughout twelve years of Government has washed his hands of any responsibility for the rights and aspirations of people with disabilities. Lord Mayor, I really do not have the time to speculate in detail why Councillor has made this mistake. One should say, however, in fairness to him, that he's quite a shrewd politician, for a Tory that is. After all, when the waves of Thatcherism threatened to roll up the M one and drown Local Government in

[speaker001:] to look across at a group wh who would know a cynical opportunity if it hit them in the face. But then again, maybe I'm wrong, for is this not the same Labour Group which now proclaims to be our cultural guardians, who, my Lord Mayor, only last year, sought, in that most bohemian of ways, to dispose of all of civic treasures in one giant car boot sale. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I would say that that is a prime example of cynical opportunism at its most cynical and most opportune. What utter and unbelievable nonsense it is for the Labour Group to claim that the Conservative Group have sought to exploit the needs of people with disabilities in order to gain political advantage. Let me remind the cynics opposite that yours is the only Group on this Council which has voted against our proposals on disability. It says a great deal about our attitude to the role of the opposition that you regard everything that they do as being a little more than attempt to seek a political advantage. Both ourselves and the Liberals share a concern for the people with disabilities. We want to see employers, whether it be the Council or private companies, taking an active interest in helping solve the practical difficulties associated with disability. That is why we, with the support of the Liberals, put forward our own adaptation of the perfect Percent for Art policy. There is nothing ins intrinsically long with the concept of Percent for Art, but we saw an opportunity to extend that concept to make sure that the real need of real people in real communities were properly reflected in any scheme. What is the point of having Van Goch hanging in a public building if people with disabilities are not provided with proper access facilities. hear hear Do the Labour Group want to promote that kind of cultural apartheid? No, I am afraid, Lord Mayor, that the Conservative Group would not stoop so low as to exploit disability for mere political advantage. Let me remind the members opposite of a Conservative Group policy document on disability that was produced in 1987. That document clearly stated our concern about the need for vigilance in respect of the physical environment in order to ensure necessary access facilities for buildings, transport, leisure and other facilities. Far from seeking to gain political advantage, all that my Group have tried to do is to continue with a long-held policy on disability. It is time that members opposite stopped this petty vindictiveness and sought to join with both ourselves and the Liberals in seeking to press for real progress in recognising the specific requirement of people with disabilities. And all too often in the past disability as an issue has been neglected, while the Council pursued other parts of its Equal Opportunities policy. Today we have lost a marvellous opportunity put that right. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] Lord Mayor. I've never heard so much rubbish in my life and what I'm gonna try and do is speak to the policy of Percent for Art. There're just one or two minor announcements. The Percent for Art policy originated from people. It was presented to Parliament by a Secretary of State for Environment, Trade and Industry, Health, Education and Science etcetera, in September 1990. So the Government supports Percent for Art and I would have hoped that it would have at least done a little bit of er work little bit of homework and I would have hoped that those members that went to the Percent for Art seminar would have stood up and said something positive about what it's about. Councillor Community Environmental Services Committee are responsible for the large number of partnerships, social partnerships, with big business that the Labour Group are bringing to and the reason the Percent for Art was on that Committee was to link in to that er those those partnerships' proposals. It was the Tories that hijacked Percent for Art and brought the issue of disability about. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] and what they did, and you were there, and you must've been listening, what they did, percent for people, they moved it up to Policy and Resources, Policy and Resources percent for people came around, Councillor spoke. He'd forgotten about the booklet that he put forward on building regulations, the forward that he'd put forward, so what he was asking to do was already Council policy that he initiated but forgot about. I think it's typical on the things that Councillor does. He p he pretends to forget about things that he's done in the past, but the people of don't forget what you've done in the past. [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] our Lord Mayor. The real truth, not elitist. You're not a philistine. Cynical opportunities is far more appropriate. Think about it. Percent for Art. You know has culture no therapeutic value, no medical value? Can we imagine living in a world without music. And some are saying that that's already happening. But would it be so absurd for those who sought refuge in tranquilisers or pep pills to try instead a course of Beethoven, Mozart or Chopin? Is it so fantastic to imagine a future in which doctors w doctors will prescribe a visit to the art gallery for people for people with depression? Today it's fashionable to be green. Parties compete for the greenest mantle. No Party is so red or so blue they would not be green. Conferences solemnly debate the environment but the environment is not just about the North Pole or the ozone layer. It's about what's happening in our everyday lives, down the street, round the corner, including, and especially including civic art and architecture which, above all, could relate to the real lives of the community. Cities have to have green belts but they should also have green hearts. Percentage for Art and the people behind it believe it's time th the time has come for art to go on the offensive. Art is green. It's irr relevance relevance to everyday people must be shown in people's surroundings, combining the convenience of the new with the conservation of the best of the old. Good old fashioned Local Authority planning. Accessible, accountable and aesthetically desirable. Culture, we believe, art is an important ingredient in the quality of life. And a Percent for Art policy is only a small step towards that. And we're only seeking up to one percent of development costs. So let's have none of the crocodile tears about big business. The problems of big business are not about Percent for Art, they're about your Government's interest rate policies, about unemployment, so don't come crying crocodile tears for big business. Because they actually welcome Percent for Art. At the seminar we had a business who wanted to set up a fund to provide the artistic and cultural er facilities for these developments. So, Percent for Art is about people. It's been adopted by a large number of Authorities, of which is gonna be one of them I hope. It's a true partnership, a true partnership between the private and public sector which we know about and you could never achieve. East district is rich in culture because of the mult multi-cultural population that we've got. We've got the cultural attractions already, the Museum and other artistic attractions. We believe Percent for Art will be successful with th with the people of. It's not worthy, Councillor to try and link trivial trivial politics to score points, to score points, to score points, to score points to score points at the attacks on people with disabilities, in the trivial way that you did because you couldn't remember the policy. Percent for Art is a part of our long term promotion to make a city of culture, which we will do with the support of people. So stop playing politics cos you don't know how to do it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. [tape breaks here] everybody to understand that we're actually voting on this procedure of motions, not er not that the er question be now put so so [whispering] [] The Lord Mayor No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Councillor er? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor Mrs? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor Mrs? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor er? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Two [tape breaks here] That is clearly carried. Fifty one votes for, thirty six against. We will, I'm now going to vote on the two er items that've been discussed but before so doing, before so doing, may I bi be permitted to congratulate those new members of Council who have made, I think, excellent [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Now to item eleven, the Percentage for Art policy. Those in favour of amendment D moved by Councillor? Thank you. Oh [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Time wasting [whispering] pure time wasting is this [] [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] The Lord Mayor No [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker001:] Co Councillor? Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Right Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor er? Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor Mrs? Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor er? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No [whispering] two four six eight ten [] [tape breaks here] The amendment was lost Hurray Ah, shame Fifty one against, thirty six for. Will tho we'll then move on to those in favour of the substantive motion please show [whispering] fifty one thirty six [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [whispering] fifty one in favour [] Fi that is carried, fifty one in favour [whispering] count the votes against [] You want to vote, do you? Right oh. Those against. You're just wasting time. Go on. Fifty one, and the vote's dropped to thirty four now. Item si Item sixteen, people with disabilities. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show [whispering] yes [] Go on, it's fifty one, go on. Fifty one. Fifty one Lord Mayor. Th those who re really want to vote against That's carried, fifty one thirty six. Well, it's carried, fifty one, it's gone up to thirty six now. The next i The next item is er item twelve, social partnership. Call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the Community Environment Services Committee, together with amendment E standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment F standing in her name I so move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Ok [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put Those in favour that the vote be now put?... [whispering] can't can't do it because [] Those against?... That is carried, fifty one thirty six against. Move on to item thirteen. I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry to rush the thing, I'm trying to rush the thing. Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor? [whispering] thirty six [] Twenty six? [whispering] thirty six [] Those against?... [whispering] fifty one thirty six [] That that's lost, fifty one to thirty six. Now will those in favour of the s substantive motion please show?... Which which I remember incorporates the amendment moved by By Councillor [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Those against? Thirty six... That is carried, fifty one thirty four. Item thirteen car parking. In accordance with standing order A twelve C enforced at the time, Councillor m notice of motion on car parking was referred to the Cou by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to the Community and Environment Services Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document B referred to on the agenda. At the same time Cou at the same Council meeting two amendments to the motion were formally moved by ex Councillor and Councillor respectively, and seconded and we were also submitted to the Committee. Call upon Councillor to move amendment G standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor [clears throat] I call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder Seconded Lord Mayor Mhm mhm Councillor. My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. [tape breaks here] All those in favour the vote be now put? Fifty Those against? undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration, the many spoiling it for the few yet again. Lord Mayor it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. We simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. Nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. Thank you Lord Mayor [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Lord Mayor under standing orders A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. Seconded My Lord. Those in favour?... [whispering] forty seven [] Mhm? Eh? Is there forty seven? just walking back [whispering] forty eight [] Against... [whispering] carried forty eight to thirty two [] That's carried, forty eight to thirty two. So we move to those in favour of amendment M moved by Councillor please show?... Those against... Mhm? [whispering] that's thirty two fifty [] That is lost, thirty two to fifty. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show ... [whispering] fifty one [] Those against?... [whispering] carried fifty one to thirty [] That's carried, fifty one to thirty Mhm? Now, now then, there's still some business to be transacted. I don't think we're going to be able to get it through. Now it's entirely in your hands. We can continue and try and finish the business before we have tea or we can decided to have tea. Those in favour of breaking for tea now, please show Those against We well it's a democratic decision, is that. I find it rather a surprising one but good. The next one, the next item is the City Challenge Initiative. Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment O standing in his name. So moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Call upon Councillor or Councillor then to move the amendment N standing in his name. Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes S those in favour that we m that we deal with it at this meeting? Yes, that's clearly carried, so we'll My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor Those in favour?... Those against? [whispering] forty seven thirty two [] That's carried, forty seven to thirty two. Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor? Those against? That is carried, forty seven thirty one and becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show... [whispering] [] Those against? [whispering] forty nine thirty one [] Carried, forty nine thirty one. Next item is the Lord Mayor's civic car. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I call upon Councillor to move the vote. Moved Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment F, no P, sorry. Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing orders A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? All those in favour? [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Those in favour? Those against? [whispering] lost, sorry, that's carried, forty nine thirty two [] Carried, forty nine thirty two. So, those in favour of amendment P moved by Councillor? Those against? That's lost, thirty two to forty eight. So w Mhm? [whispering] [] So, those in favour of the substantive motion please show That's Councillor motion It's Councillor it's Councillor motion. I think vote for that [whispering] vote against [] Those those against? [whispering] lost thirty two to fifty [] That's lost, thirty two to fifty The financial provision of the Council. Call upon Councillor to move the motion I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Call upon Councillor er to move amendment Q. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? In accordance, er, call upon Councillor to move amendment R standing in her name. Is there, is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order a thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Lord Mayor Those in favour? Clearly carried. [whispering] [] Councillor to keep to keep the the members of Council from their collective tea at this time of the evening, but my group feels it is necessary to put forward the people of the acute financial situation of this Council, a situation which is deteriorating rapidly, and began to deteriorate in May last year, May 1990. In the final accounts to p to Policy and Resources for 1990 ninety one, there is a massive two point four million pounds overspent in the education budget. We had previously only be warned to expect an overspend of one and a half million. Is this why, we ask ourselves, the Local Education Authority, out of one hundred and thirty teachers it promised extra to employ during this current financial year, there are only sixty three visible new teachers, and sixty seven of them are alas imaginary? And will the six percent, which the Director of Education has been instructed to save across all central budgets, be enough to cover this years' education overspend? And will the Chairman of Education awake from his beauty sleep to understand either of those questions? Now what is the explanation for the discrepancy in the budgetary machinery? Is it, perhaps, that he controlling group always knew that they would not be able to achieve the original levels of spend but, like true socialists, did not much care? In referring to the non-collection rates of community charge a few weeks ago, Councillor said, the outstanding debt will cripple essential services and I dread to think what effect it will have on our schools, social services and the state of the streets. Sadly, the own reaction, his own reaction then was to make a speech to threaten to put more people on to the streets. This mounting crisis is due to ignoring the illegal actions of residents who will happily use Council services but refuse to pay for their Council services. That is, refusing to pay their community charge. A massive twelve point four million pounds is now owed by the non-payer to the law abiding citizens of Bradford. Indeed, perhaps the most sensible thing that that model of of consistency,Ki Neil Kinnock, has said this year was, law makers must not must not be law breakers. And he said this, interestingly enough, when referring to the M P,, who's currently enjoying Her Majesty's hospitality. And what of those, my Lord Mayor, who, although not so full of principle as to refuse payment themselves, actually encourage others to break the law? And what of Mister and Mister? And what indeed Councillor is missing of members of the Labour Group? When is Councillor going to condemn their actions? And is Councillor k does Councillor intend to pay his debts this year? Lord Mayor, I'll tell you a small story. At one of our constituency surgeries, a retired widow came in to see us concerning the seventeen pounds extra which she would have to pay extra er to cover the other non-payments. She announced her intention to deduct this er this amount from the total and to send the balance. She was told that it was the law to pay the full amount and she must pay it in full, and her answer was that it was the law last year that everyone should pay their own bills, and what happened to them? Nothing happened to them, and that is the way institutions and local democracy will be de-valued. It's clear, Lord Mayor, that the Labour Group have their own priorities. One of the priorities is a million pounds that's been spent on community consultation structure and about a quarter of a million on a marketing and public relations unit. I guess that the people of will realise at the end of this year that the consultation and communication and public relations of this Authority are impeccable, that the quality of messages sent and received is superb and that the volume of such messages is vast. But will all of it empty a single bin? Will it feed a pensioner? Will it comfort a single child? We're very concerned Lord Mayor about the City Hall pay awards. We're concerned that the that the Local Authorities of this land, including should have received a demand of twelve a twelve percent minimum for A P T and C, and a minimum wage of nine thousand three hundred and thirty, a level much higher than the Labour Party's own national minimum wage, and indeed higher than the T U C's definition. National minimum wage, of which has said, the employment consequences would be little short of disastrous and the society backs estimates that up to eight hundred thousand jobs could be destroyed by the minimum wage and of the A E U described the minimum wage as nonsense and said he was flatly opposed to it's introduction in the private sector. The result, the result of such claims will be a rush to restore differentials and a general inflation in Local Authorities, with no increase in value of services for the community and I ask that the Labour Party should distance itself from this very mis-guided proposal for national wage proposals, minimum national wage proposals. If this Council means what it says about devolution and customer er customer contracts, it must begin to see that the over-riding need for local divisional pay determination and sub-divisional pay determination that relates reward to the volume, value and standard of service delivered. And, I say to the Chief Officers of this Authority, that their that their proposed that their proposed claim of fourteen percent is nothing short of disgraceful. As, as Councillor would have said, and I would remind members of Council that I believe that the Chief Officers of this Council still have pay related to their performance and I am sure that all members, not least the controlling group, will take will take note of that. And we do hope that the Chief Officers of this Authority will show the commendable st restraint they normally have. A very small proportion, my Lord Mayor, of of what affects the City's financial position, is your own car, Sir, which I am delighted to see has been plugged into the controlling group's revenue expenditure this year. It's a relatively modest amount, nine thousand pounds a year. We are delighted to endorse the decision, delighted to endorse the decision for your car to be er to be provided in proper state and proper style. We are delighted that the Council wishes wishes you wishes you to drive around in black. We would we would like to see the controlling group showing equal commitment to keeping all of us in the black. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] In conclusion, my Lord Member, we all remember we all remember the windfall, the supposed windfall, that Councillor said had been produced by the good housekeeping of the joint bodies of. It was, of course, nothing of the sort. It was, that distribution was to prevent a certain Labour Authority in being charge capped. It was not money that the joint bodies did not require or need. It was money that the five leaders withdrew and the results have been cuts that threaten the closure of household waste sites in and in. Is, my Lord Mayor, going to have to find extra money to fi to to fi to fund those sites independently. If not, and if they close, will boast at least three things. It will have three priceless reminders of. It will have Councillor, it will have an overspent and out of control revenue budget and it will have streets and parks strewn with abandoned, rotting,hou household rubbish [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor Thank you my Lord Mayor. It is interesting, isn't it, that er I knew the road to Damascus was long, but I didn't realise it were that long cos on the second of July the Tories moved an amendment at P and R criticising us for spending money on the Lord Mayor's car, but I'm glad to see that you've come back to the fold. I think what is interesting, though, is that if you look at the two amendments which are on the audit paper, one deals with speculation er proposed by the Tories. What I intend to deal with is the record as it stands because anybody who's going to argue a case against the decline of of any kind of system has to put the facts as they are, not as they would wish them to be, and I would argue that the legacy, before we can do that, the legacy which we inherited as a controlling group back in 1990, is now a matter of record I would accept. But because of the nature, because of the nature of our amendment, we do need to remind the opposition that er prior to that date was facing major social economic problems as vital services in the local economy fell victim to the consequences of planning thirty million out of the budget in order to bring in a low poll tax. That's where we began. At that particular time, er, quite right, faced with the failing national economy, and it's got worse than it was then, and an increase in poverty in, this controlling group produced its plan for 1990 ninety one and in it's redirection packages which are now part of our agenda on Council we d we made to pledges, one was to change the nature of Council and the other was to redirect sources on the process of need and we put four point three million on redirection in the first year, four point seven the second year. We had no new monies during last year and consequently we have no growth. Now, what's important is the philosophical advice on which those packages came from. Ours were led on a policy led planning process which was driven by the needs of, which are clearly identified in the an anti poverty strategy which is designed to protect the services, the jobs, to regenerate the local economy and make a better place to live and for children to grow up in. Area panels which have been so bitterly criticised, and neighbourhood forums, have since confirmed the wisdom of that process and the rejection of a Tory budget process, driven not by the needs of the community but the need to deliver the firm Thatcherite message which is still there, set a poll tax as low as possible and then work your priorities backwards irrespective of the consequences. I submit, my Lord Mayor, that any decline in the Council's finances, is due primarily to the Tories originally looking for electoral success. The electorate rejected them and they put that before the quality services and the social responsibility that we have as Councillors, not just to ourselves and our wards, but to the whole district and the community as Councillor continually reminds us. There are two other documents you have to consider in the monetary and evaluation exercise to see how successful we were in 1990 ninety one, one is called a partnership for quality and the other is called fairer shares, a programme towards an anti strategy. Both these documents came before this Council in July 1990. What they were based on, and I I have to say it though, that since poverty in all its forms has proved an intractable enemy to us, and given the limited Council resources that were available, plus the Government, which has consistently attacked Local Authorities and made financial constraints upon us almost impossible to operate, we have we recognise that to analyse the job in hand, first of all we needed an accurate picture of need, we needed to share the commitment with the workforce of Council and all those in partnership of consultation. We needed imagination, flair and courage and, above all, we needed a political will to be shared by the controlling group. Now, if you use any financial monitor that we have, and bearing in mind the size of the task, any critical analysis will reveal that this Council, under Labour, can definitely say that it's met the challenge and it's certainly started to make the change. However, I wouldn't want to simply sit back on our achievement, because there's no room for complacency. Some of the facts that's been put forward today, I would remind that you that the financial rumblings of the D E at the moment about poll tax levels for this year, standing spending assessments, the increased capping powers that Mister Heseltine will bring forward will make it extremely difficult in this year. But the asinine policies that were brought through in the th er in the Thatcher era they still are here with us, no matter how they try to get shut of them, the poll tax which has been referred to by Councillor is confusion at its best. It's the worst thing that's ever come from any political Party and all associated problems live on, and all we have at the moment is one statement after the other from the Ministers which blame the very people that it attacks. It blames the poor, it blames the unemployed, it blames industry and it blames commerce for the mess that we're in and never says anything about itself. I want to just scotch the myth that has been put forward by Councillor about the poll tax cos did this at P and R and I will reiterate what the leader said then and I and and quite clearly and soundly, that the Labour Party, both nationally and locally, and this Labour Group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. Is that clear? Have you got that? Thank you. Now then, and I think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. However, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. Now, the evidence is very clear. I'll produce the evidence for you. That's not a worry. Now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. But let me give you two